The Marauders: Group Character Analysis

This is a new and shiny attempt at having a thread analysing the Marauders without focussing on one Marauder only. Remus, James, Sirius and Peter are probably the most tragic group within the series and they all end up dead. But the dynamics are also very complex and and so are the readers' opinions when it comes to the Marauders.


How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

Before you start posting, please make sure to read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021) , In-Thread Moderator Warnings (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=110755) and How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) Be aware that this is a very sensitive and emotionally explosive topic. Making inflammatory or needlessly provocative remarks may get you temporarily banned from Legilimency Studies.

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

Nah, no one felt left oour or inferior. It is often the case within a group that a duo will be closer in ways. It is possible that Peter felt closer to James at times and that Remus felt closer to Sirius at times or some other configuration as well. For the most part there is not all that emotional nonsense with friends of four dudes, at least in my experience. They are just your buddies. James and Sirius liked to play ringleader and they mentioned that Remus would make statements of constraint from time to time, but they all managed to get their names on the trouble making slips :) In addition, they all showed their friendship to one another in many ways, like becoming animagi for Remus, etc. So the most important thing is that your buddies are there for you, don't rat you out and if a couple go off now and again on duo adventures it is no big deal, they are still your best buddies.


2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

With all due respect, this question incorrectly states canon. (no offense). Remus the Main suspect? That is not canon at all - unless you mean with respect to Sirius. Remus was only suspected by Sirius that we know of. Peter suspected no one because he knew it was him. Remus suspected Sirius. That is all we know of canon, anything else is pure speculation. Sirius and Remus were both smart - it stands to reason that they would both suspect one another and think Peter too dumb. James we don't know about at all. Remus later said that he would have found it the height of dishonor to distrust his friends, so coming from him, it is highly unlikely he'd say so if he'd been mistrusted by James in the very event that he was speaking about.

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Both. Noble as friends and they all had great adventures!

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

James merely had a crush on Lily and asked her out starting in 5th - er - kind of like we all did back in 5th grade? She wasn't into it and he couldn't seem to convince her until 7th. We don't know how many more times James asked her out, but likely a few. Sirius, Remus and Peter didn't seem to mind - why would they? They are dudes too, they know whats up. We don't really know of any contact between Lily and James other than that.

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

There is no canon about this. I would imagine like all girls do. Take your buddy away a bit and eventually if it is a cool girl, she hangs with the buddies too. It appears that is what happened as she was on a nickname basis with them all. even 'wormy' for wormtail. So not likely much affect at all - dudes understand these things unless they are pretty needy and the Mauraders don't strike me as a needy group with the possible exception of Peter, but he wouldn't care either because he still had the others.

Besides Sirius was supposedly handsome and always attracting the girls and likely dating and stuff and James too - possibly even Remus - and who knows, even Peter dated, so they did this stuff all the time. But all thir dating wasn't pertinent to the story so we didn't hear about it.

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Lol. They didn't seem to be over-emotional people, they were normal dudes. Why would they be hurt? :lol::rotfl:

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

Nah, he was bummed as we saw in the letter by Lily. Later he got used to it I suppose, but he always felt regret according to DD and Harry so, I suppose he was always unhappy about it. I don't think he truly believed they would ever forgive him. They likely will in the afterworld.

8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

They all had strong feelings for the cause - maybe except Peter. I think the rest all wanted to join as a matter of course.

7. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor?

I'd say yes. Snape wouldn't have made the negative noise on the train if he didn't mind Gryffindor and they would have all gotten off to a better start. If he had, but then found himself in Gryffindor somehow, there would have been big problems between him and all Gryffindors about his interest in the dark arts. Perhaps the peer pressure would have helped Snape. If so, they might have just treated him like all other Gryffs.

8. Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

Snape started things up on the train and so they all had early antagonism going on. But I am sure that the Marauders pranked everyone - and had not nice comments for the dark arts followers (I would presume all students did like in Harry's day). Basically, I think it was like in Harry's day with the Marauders harder on them as Harry was on Draco, Crabbe and Goyle.

9. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

They are just like Fred and George - all of them in one way or another. Except with Snape and anyone else who tried to use dark curses against them - I imagine they were a little harder on them.


10. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

Well they came back in the reunion scene - young, happy, healthy and wise in the after-life. Who could ask for more? Not me. I thought they came out great.

11. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

Remus of course. He was kind, compassionate, friendly, trustworthy, cautious and a prankster as an adult, so I imagine he was more or less the same as a child/teen. He was likely hesitant in his friendship in ways with the Marauders at first prior to their finding out about his furry little problem (but not totally of course), but their total acceptance of him would be met with utter love in return, that is just how he was - not having many friends and such. Their close friendship likely opened the door to many more friendships as well. I think it was splendid that they offered him the chance to have a normal childhood (as much as possible) because due to the outlook of society, his childhood/teen years could have been lonely and miserable. He offered them things too which they also loved - and I think they appreciated all about Remus (only later his caution when they matured) and he appreciated ll of their traits as well. But in reality, Remus' caution didn't slow them down, just made them feel bad and apparently it didn't slow him down that much either. I am glad, he deserved to be happy because every month for a few days, he was miserable through no fault of his own. And mostly because ~ He was a Werewolf~ wicked!

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I don't think they felt left out per se. Maybe a little intimidated, but not particularly left out. I think Peter was in his own little worship-world to begin with to even notice the others' relationships. Feeling left out may have applied to Remus a bit, but even then, I don't think it affected him all that much.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

I think this goes back to discrimination. The fact that he is a part of an inferior group in the wizarding world makes him guilty in a way by default. The magical community's stereotypes of werewolves automatically gives him a strike. I'm not sure what it says about the people he hung out with because if that is the case, then his "friends" also had that particular prejudice. However, it just goes to show how much a particular opinion of someone who's different influences others.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Personally, I think it was both. They saw in Remus something that most others wouldn't have just because he was a werewolf. Because they loved danger and adventure, they didn't mind the potential consequences that this sort of magic could inflict.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

I never found his crush on her an obsession. I don't think the others did either. Could it have been? Maybe. However, I really think he fell in love and that caused him to show off and be arrogant as much as he could be for the girl he considered a potential mate. I find the fact that he wrote her initials while taking his OWLs a particularly sweet gesture, not an obsessive one.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

I think she brought a motherly and straight head influence. I think she was the one who brought them all back to earth and helped them mature.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I'm sure they would have been. However, I think they knew, especially Remus, the type of relationship James and Sirius had; much like Hermione realizes the type of relationship Harry and Ron have.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

That's a possibility, but I honestly think they were as much adventurous as the other two. Maybe not to the same extent, but almost as much.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think they mirror each other. However, I think the twins were not as magically capable to do many of the things the Marauders did, but only because they didn't apply themselves and their abilities to do it. If they had, I think they could have been just as bad, if not worse, than the Marauders.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

It did not change my thoughts about the Marauders. I've loved them since I first read about them. I think they were portrayed the way they were meant to be portrayed.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

I like all the three loyal ones. They were all wonderful in their own ways. I didn't see much in Peter, not even when he felt remorse about what he had done to Harry. :shrug:

Ah, wonderful; my favourite characters, all in one thread. :D

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I think Remus and Peter were both the kinds of people who were too thrilled to be included in the first place to really think about that. Peter would have just been happy enough to hang around with them. Remus would have been more understanding of the friendship between James and Sirius, understood that it was more like a brotherly relationship. He's very intuitive that way. So I don't think it was a big problem for either of them.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

Well, he was the one Sirius suspected (we don't know what James thought), and Remus himself I think suspected Sirius. I think Sirius suspected Remus because he knew it wasn't himself or James, and never would have dreamed Peter to be skilled enough to be of use for Voldemort. Remus is very intelligent, and a wee bit mysterious in his own way (which I love), so I think that's where Sirius drew his conclusion from. And pretty much the same with Remus; he knew it couldn't be himself or James, and Peter didn't seem skilled enough for it, and so that left Sirius.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

It was noble at first, and then a bit adventurous as well. It was done for a very noble reason, at least. They wanted to keep him company, and they had no idea what kind of fun would result from it. I think it meant the world to Remus that his friends were willing to do all this for him - something I think influenced him to become a bit more daring himself, and to let his friends do silly things while he was prefect...

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

I wouldn't call it an obsession. I think it started out just like a normal school crush does. I think part of the appeal for James was that she kept turning him down - you know, you love what you can't have. But at some point it obviously grew into more than just a silly crush (I think it was adorable that he was doodling her initials on his exam paper, and embellishing it).

I think he kept his true feelings quiet from the other Marauders, like a lot of guys do (it's sometimes a pain talking to my male friends about this kind of stuff), though they obviously knew he fancied her quite a bit - Sirius mentioned how James always made a fool of himself around Lily, so I guess they noticed his emotions through his actions. I think they found it rather amusing, to be honest.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

I think she influenced them as much as they influenced her. I think the relationship between Lily and James would have matured the Marauders even more so, especially because they got married and had a baby so young. So I guess she toned down the immaturity of it all. But I think they probably brought out her humour more (I mean, she did find them funny in SWM, in spite of herself).

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Again, I think Peter would have just been happy to have been around for it all, and Remus would have really understood the friendship between James and Sirius, enough to know that it was blatantly obvious who would be godfather. And I really don't see Remus as the jealous type at all.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

No, I don't think he was ever happy to do it, but he was a coward. I think, maybe deep down he felt some sort of triumph knowing he was outsmarting his friends who were always better than him, but I really don't think he was all that spiteful. He seemed kind of nervous and depressed about it all, actually.

It was said in the books that James would have forgiven him, eventually. I don't know if Sirius would have, though. Sirius lost practically everything in his life while still being around to suffer through it all, all thanks to Peter... and sometimes those scars just run too deep. Remus, I'm not all too sure - I mean, he lost a great deal because of Peter, too, but he seems much more forgiving than Sirius. I think he would have, over time, come to forgive him. Again, he strikes me as very intuitive, and probably recognized why Peter did it all, and he would have found pity for him somewhere.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think James, Sirius and Remus were willing to join the fight. Peter wasn't that brave at all, so I think he would have prefered to stick to the side lines and stay safe, but joined cause of his friends.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

Well, for Snape to have been sorted into Gryffindor, he would have been quite a different person. He pretty much hated the house, so he got off on the wrong foot with James and Sirius. I think the dislike really originated in his being a Slytherin, but that was all prejudice; then when it came to him being interested in the Dark Arts, they just couldn't see eye-to-eye at all, and came to actually hate him.

I think it came to be very much like the Harry/Malfoy situation; there were, of course, other Slytherins that had dark tendencies, but the trio never really paid them much attention. It was really always Malfoy they hated.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think they were very much like the twins. Both the Marauders and Fred and George were very mischievous and made people laugh, but sometimes crossed the line a bit (the SS incident for the Marauders, or ganging up on Snape in SWM, and the twins shoving Montague in the Vanishing Cabinet, which was highly dangerous). And Fred and George have been compared to the Marauders in the books before, too. I think on the whole, they were pretty similar.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

I've never thought badly about the Marauders. In the end, I loved them even more because of Deathly Hallows - the scene with the resurection stone was extremely touching. I think we know enough about what they did and how they were (even the brief times we saw James) to conclude that they were truly good people. They did stupid things as kids, but who hasn't? We can't judge them entirely on SWM, for example. I think it's far more important to look at how they ended up as adults - which, save for Peter, was very favourable in my opinion.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

Ah, well, one needs only to look at my signature to know. Prongs is my favourite, and Padfoot and Moony are a very close second. :) The reason I like James the best probably has a lot to do with the fact that he's Harry's father. I'm very attached to my own parents, so I grew to love Lily and James as great parental figures as well. Then I really got to thinking about James as a kid, and I just fell in love with his character - even his flaws. He's witty, adventurous, loving, courageous, and talented... and I even love his immaturity. He reminds me of a couple of my best friends, so I suppose I would have gotten along well with him.

I think the other Marauders saw him for the noble person he was. He put so much effort into his friendships that it was clear he was the kind of person one would want to be friends with for a lifetime.

Okay, this post is long enough by now.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
It seems at times that Harry views it that way. When he is looking at the picture that he found in Sirius's bedroom and in SWM. I don't believe that it was so though. In a way I can see where at times Peter and Remus may have felt left out...especially Remus since he so often made himself an outcast. I think Remus may have felt inferior, but because of his "furry little problem". I don't think Peter felt inferior around James and Sirius...for him I think it would be the opposite. He felt inferior alone and not surrounded by powerful or cool people.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I have asked myself this many times as well. I think that, 1. Because Remus was a werewolf they may have thought he was persuaded by Voldy. and 2. I really think Sirius and James underestimated Peter. I don't think they thought he was capable of joining Voldy, so by process of elimination they thought of Remus.

Do we know if Remus was in the first Order? I can't remember right now. If not, then that could be another strike against him.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both. They risked everything for their friend and I am sure they enjoyed doing it too.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
"Obsession" might be too strong of a word here. I don't know if he was obsessed with Lily. I suppose they were okay with it. Didn't Jo say somewhere that Remus might have fallen for Lily if it wasn't that James liked her? Well, I try to get inside a "guys' mind for this and I am sure they were cool with it as long as she didn't hinder their fun.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
By the way that both Lupin and Sirius speak of Lily, they were very fond of her. So I like to think that she allowed James so free time with the guys to maraud around. I see her as being kind of motherly to all of them. I can't really explain it, it is jut a feeling I get.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I'd like to think that Remus wasn't he was smart enough to know that they were best friends. Maybe James promised Remus he would be godfather of the next one :(
Peter...maybe was upset. It is hard to think of him pre-betrayal and think how he would feel about things when my view of him is so tainted.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think he was ever happy with himself. In Lily's letter to Sirius she notes that Peter seemed down or depressed. He knew he had sold them out and that was probably the last time he would see them alive. I think he was a sad pathetic human being and I have a feeling he wasn't very proud of himself. Especially later in life.

I think both James and Remus would forgive him. I don't see Sirius as a very forgiving character...I love him (:love:). But, I don't see him forgiving Peter. He was ready to kill him rather than give him a chance to redeem himself.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
OOO! :clap: I wrote a fan fic and in the last one it tells how they all joined the Order. I like to think the way I wrote it is the way it happened, at least for me and my mind. A very significant death leads is the final straw which leads them all to join. So, I believe it was a joint decision.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
Ahh! It possibly would have been different. They may have been friends, but would James' and Snape's love for Lily have drove them apart eventually? I think so. I can see them playing tricks and pranks on other students but I feel like Snape was the brunt of most of them.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I don't think they were as funny. I see James and Sirius as a little more arrogant than the Weasley twins. I see them doing things more to impress girls or Lily than random pratical jokes like Fred and George. But, I think the two pairs were very close in their devinat natures.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
No DH did not change my opinion of the Marauders. I love that all over them minus the Rat showed up in the Forest. I love it. Together again. I think they were portrayed favourably.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Sirius. Let me count the ways.....
Okay, I don't want to do any character worship here (:angel:) So I will leave the "good looking" comments for another thread.
But, I liked his honesty and his brashness. He said what he wanted without reserve. He was firecely loyal to his friends and firceley protective of his godson. His cool nature and his love for his friends. He stood up for what he believed in and he was brave beyond measure. He was willing to die (and did :upset:) for a cause to end evil. That to me is beauty.
I think his friends did appreciate this. At least I like to think they did.

An analysis on my favorite characters for the past six years! :D

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think they were all close as a group, but I don't think they were bothered by the closeness of James and Sirius. James and Sirius both have very powerful personalities, it makes sense why the two of them get along so well. Remus and Peter were happy to be in the group, but I don't think they had a problem with how James and Sirius were. Harry, Ron, Hermione end up having Ginny, Neville and Luna join their group later, but they all knew the trio were closer to each other than to the rest of them.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I think the reason why Remus was the suspect because they all knew how clever Remus was. The reason why Peter wasn't suspected was the same reason why Sirius wanted Peter to be SK. No one suspected Peter could be so clever to be that secretive. The only other person that could've been suspected was Remus, the much cleverer one and the one Voldemort would most likely want in his group of DEs.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
I think it was a mixture of both. Once James, Sirius and Peter realized what Remus had to go through, I think they really wanted to help him out. Werewolf transformation is a horrible experience to go through especially when half the world fears werewolves. My assumption is that they were more concerned about Remus and later began to realize the adventure the experiences could offer them.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
James, obsessed? Infatuated, yes. But I would never consider James obsessed.
Anyway, I think the group appreciated Lily a lot once they got into their seventh year. I think she was the sensible one (besides Remus) and could tell them when they were going too far.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I really don't think they were that surprised by the choice. Sirius was like a brother to James, so why wouldn't he choose Sirius as godfather? I don't think Remus would've wanted to take care of Harry. Not because Remus doesn't care but because of Remus's opinion of himself. In DH he doesn't want to be with his wife and son because he doesn't want to make them go through trouble because of him. Remus probably didn't want the same for his best friends' son either, I think!

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think he ever really was happy. He was pleased that he had protection and wouldn't die that easily, but happy? No....
I could imagine James being the first to forgiving Peter. According to Dumbledore, James would've done the same thing for Wormtail that Harry did. Remus and SIrius, on the other hand, were the ones ready to kill him. Remus probably would've come next in forgiving Peter. Sirius would probably be last, but who can blame the guy? :( He was imprisoned for the crimes that Peter committed for 12 years! Plus, with the dementors he didn't get one happy moment. Imagine what Sirius had to think/hear all those years. And being blamed for the death of his best friend.... Yeah, Sirius would be hte one who would take the longest to forgive Peter.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I really doubt there was much pressure involved. James, Sirius and Remus - as far as I can tell - detested the Dark Arts and would've wanted to be out there fighting the Death Eaters. If there was one who didn't have his heart truly in it, I think it was Peter. Peter was the follower of the group. Once he saw that his friends were joining, he probably joined too because of their choices.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
Well, if Snape was in Gryffindor but continued to keep his fascination with the Dark Arts, he'd definitely have a problem with them, especially James. I wouldn't put it past the Marauders to hex other Dark Arts lovers, but Snape was the one I think they couldn't stand. The trio didn't like Draco at all even though there were a lot of other students who loved the Dark Arts in their house. Plus Snape was the one who was obsessed with catching them on their midnight excursions. Naturally they wouldn't like him because of that.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think they were pretty equal. In OotP, Harry says Fred and George would do the same thing James and SIrius did to someone that "truly deserved it" like Draco. The only difference is that I think James and SIrius were much more dangerous in a way by dedicating several years to becoming unregistered animagi.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think
that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
Not at all. I still love all (and in Peter's case, dislike) the same as when I finished reading PoA. I think that the only one who was portrayed badly was Peter. However, with the others I think they were all shown flaws and strengths in their character. :)

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
I like the three loyal Marauders. I only liked Sirius and Remus for a while until OotP came out. Once OotP came out, I became a huge fan of James and I have been ever since.
I can't say I have a favorite, but I do admit I've always had a soft spot for James. Learning his flaws as a teenager made me appreciate him because I saw how human he was.

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

Though James and Sirius might have been like brothers within the foursome, I don't think it would have made Remus or Peter feel left out. Remus seems very nearly as close to them as they are to each other. But I do believe the relationship James and Sirius had with Peter was different than the one they had with Remus. For Peter, he was always looking up to them and standing in their shadows - it's been said he hero worshipped James (and probably Sirius too). So perhaps later on after they graduated from Hogwarts, Peter might have felt a bit inferior.


2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

I've said in other threads that I believe Peter did have much to do with the distrust between the Marauders during that time. They likely didn't have the greatest communication set up, and I believe once Peter was enlisted as a DE he would have been trying to subtly turn any suspision away from himself and toward the other Marauders.


James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Both, I think, knowing them. ;) It was a very noble thing to do because 1) it can go very wrong if you don't have proper training, and 2) it made Remus' transformations the best times in his life rather than something he absolutely dreaded. But it was also adventurous because of the danger involved and due to the idea of romping around the grounds in forms no one would recognize.


What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

They probably accepted it as one of James' quirks. They may have been a little annoyed with it at times, and at others they may have tried to give him a hand in wooing her. ;) But I also have to agree with MPHFAN that James's thing for Lily might not have been an obsession, but rather something that makes him behave in a less than respectable manner.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

Once she became part of the group by marrying James, I'm sure she was the voice of reason that tempered them when they got too wild and mischievous. She was the motherly presence, being the only female.


James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Peter might have been hurt rather than understanding, but I can see Remus as being understanding. He likely would have wholeheartedly agreed, seeing as how he is very concerned about being around children due to his "furry little problem". But a part of him may have also been a bit sad and hurt, believing he could never fulfill a parent/guardian role in a child's life.


Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

At one point, I'm sure Peter felt good in his decision to betray his friends. However, near the end of the story, I think he began to regret it. At that point, I think he was trying to convince himself that he'd done the right thing, and that he could live with his decision, but deep down, I think Peter was very unhappy. As for whether his friends could forgive him if they'd had the chance, I think it would depend on whether or not Peter was able to show true remorse for what he'd done. If he could do that, I think there's a chance his friends could forgive him.


Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think he may have joined following James, Remus and Sirius' leads; either that or they discussed it and Peter agreed to follow the others' leads. I doubt the three of them would have pressured Peter into something where you really have to believe in what you're fighting against to join. Also, I'm sure Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted any members that were actively pressured to join, since they may not be too trustworthy when push came to shove.


The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

It semed like they singled Snape out. Both Snape and James disliked each other at first sight, rather like Malfoy and Harry. I'm not sure things would have been different if Snape were sorted into Gryffindor, just as I'm sure things wouldn't have been too different if Harry had been sorted into Slytherin (as far as friendships go). People from the same house don't necessarily like each other, but it's true that they're usually less antagonistic than with people from different houses.


How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

There are a lot of similarities, the only differences being that the Marauders were a foursome not made up of biological brothers. The Marauders did many things that Fred and George didn't, like create the Marauders Map and become Animagi, but I'm sure Fred and George did things the Marauders didn't. They were both equally funny and clever in their own ways I'm sure.


Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

No, I feel the same way about them. They were not perfect, none of them, but they were human with human feelings. Each had their triumphs and downfalls (maybe except for Peter though - he remained a negative in my eyes).


Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

I've always had a soft spot for Remus *points at username*. ;) I love his intelligent, brave, caring, and non-confrontational personality. I love that he didn't treat Harry like a child and that he was always willing to listen to him and advise him. I also love his ability to teach, not only magic but also lessons in life. And finally, I find the dichotomy of man and werewolf very interesting, and how he was able to remain true to himself without turing into the things the werewolf represents (aka he didn't have Greyback's ideas).

That said, though I adore Remus, I also care deeply for Sirius. I admire both he and James for their bravery and loyalty, and I love that they cared so deeply for Harry. Though they may not always have made the right decisions, they did the best they could for Harry and for their friends. :tu: for both of them.

As for Peter, I'm still not too impressed with him despite his hesitation to kill Harry in DH. He still gets a :td: in my book.

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think Wormtail felt inferior, because let's face it, he was. He looked at James and Sirius the way he would look at gods. I don't think Remus was too affected by how close James and Sirius was: I think he was so grateful to have friends who accepted him and became Animagi for him he didn't mind that those two were a big closer.

2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I think like many have said, I think they thought Wormtail was too weak for them consider vulnerable to LV. And unfortunately I think Sirius and James were so close they would never suspect each other. Maybe Remus and them were out of contact with each other?

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
I think it was a bit of both. It was very kind of them to go through so much trouble for their friend. But I think they liked the adventure. In Snape's worst memory, we hear Sirius say, "wish it were a full moon tonight" and Remus replied, "you might." I think that kinda sums up the marauders attitude towards it.

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
I think they thought it was funny. It seemed to be the one thing that got James shook up-he was usually popular and cool so I thing they would find it amusing whenever he was around Lily.

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I'm not sure...maybe Lily helped the group become more logical? To me, she seemed a bit like Remus in that she was adventurous and funny, but also kinder and more grounded.

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I think they understood this, I don't think that would surprise them.

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
Honestly, I don't think Remus or especially Sirius could ever forgive him for this. Peter caused the death of James, which was like their brother-and I don't think either of them could have gotten past that fact. Plus Peter made Sirius go to Azkaban, he basically left him in hell. As for Peter's decision, I don't think he was happy about what he did, but he was one who always thought about himself before others. He might have been conflicted, but he would have gotten through whatever pain by convincing himself he had no other choice.

8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I think for James, Sirius, and Lupin it was a joint decision. For Peter, I think it was peer pressure.

9. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
I think Snape was singled out from the beginning. I think it would have helped a little if he would have been sorted into Gryffindor, but since him and James were both in love with the same woman they would always be insulting each other because of that.

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
Let's see-both were awesome! I think the Marauders were a bit more mean in their jokes (and by that I mean James, Sirius, and Peter). I think Fred and George's jokes were a bit more innocent. But I think they would have gotten along really well with the Marauders if they went to Hogwarts at the same time.
11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
My opinion didn't change too much about the Marauders, but I admit my opinion of James did change a bit. It made me see that his unkindness towards Snape was mainly because of Lily. You could see he became a good man, but since I kinda became a Snape/Lily fan after DH it made me dislike James a little. I know, it's not really fair, but what are u gonna do?:p

12. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Remus was my favorite Marauder- I love him! I liked that he was fun and adventurous, but at the same time smart, extremely kind, selfless and loyal. The Marauders did appreciate a lot of those traits in Remus, except that some times he might have disapproved of some of James and Sirius's plans.

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I think the friendship helped Remus open up to people more. Peter was probably happy to be accepted by them. I think that one or more of the Marauders felt left out at one point but move passed that.

2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

No idea.

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

I think it was noble, since they didn't really know how it would have turned out.

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

Probably thought it was just some crush blown way out of proportion

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

Don't really see Lily affecting the Marauders, except James, much.

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I think they were understanding, they knew that James was closest with Sirius and didn't mind.

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I don't think he was ever happy, Peter was pretty much bullied into working for Voldemort and wasn't brave enough to do anything about it. I think they would have forgiven Peter, after all, they spent seven years with him, they knew him the best and probably would have forgiven him
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8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think James, Sirius, and Remus wanted to join and Peter joined after all his friends did.

9. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

I don't think it would have been different had he been put in Gryffindor, they would probably just wonder why a Dark Arts obsessed kid was in Gryffindor and been more hostile. Probably bullied other kids into the Dark Arts, but Snape was their favorite victim.

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think that James and Sirius were just about the same as Fred and George, if not a little more reckless. Remus and Peter don't really compare to Fred and George.

11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

I liked them before, during, and after DH. I think they were portrayed fairly and that some people just don't see past Snape's memories of them.

12. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

Thats a hard one, but if I had to choose, it would probably be Sirius. He was a good person who was a bit reckless, he was also extremely loyal, and in short: an ideal friend.(not saying James and Remus aren't)

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I don't think Remus felt left out... He knew that Sirius and James were inseparable and they were a team. I think he was just happy to be a part of their group :)

2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

Peter reminds me of Iago from Othello... He probably just planted seeds of doubts between friends and let everything fall apart.. :(

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

I think it was extraordinarily noble... They could have just become animagi just for the heck of it but they didn't... They did for their friend. Plus in SWM we see Sirius complaining that it was not full moon. Even though he and James could have very easily transformed any day of the week, they always waited for Remus to transform as well. That is incredibly sweet and noble...:love:

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

Sirius probably didn't understand James' "affection" towards Lily... Um... I don't think his crush can be characterized as "obsession".. We only see him asking her out in one scene... Remus probably understood it a bit better... I refuse to comment much upon that rat's opinion.

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

I think Lily softened them up a little... I can see her reprimanding Sirius and James for doing something stupid...:lol: I can see her being their conscience...

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Um... Remus knew that Sirius and James were inseparable... I don't think he would have expected anything different....

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

Why should Peter even be forgiven???? I wouldn't forgive... He wasn't even remorseful about what he did...

8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

James and Sirius and Remus probably joined to fight against evil. But I don't think Peter wanted to join even for second. He joined because his protectors/friends were joining... That slimy git :no:

9. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonize other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

Looks like they singled out Snape but I am sure that they were against anyone who had an inkling towards Dark magic.

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

They are a lot like the Weasley twins... James and Sirius are equals (therefore their relationship is a lot different from Ron and Harry's friendship) and are inseparable. I see them doing light magic for the amusement of their classmates. Of course sonce they even sored great grades, they were probably conceited about that as well... And it is not like Fred and George never performed magic on their fellow classmates. Plus they pushed Montague into the vanishing cabinet which in my opinion was much worse than what Sirius and James did to Snape :) In fact I would say that they were probably funnier and more dangerous than Fred and George...

11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

I LOVED them after the deathly hallow came out... I loved that one scene where we see Sirius and James talking to each other and making fun of the way Lily spoke... It reminded me a lot of how Ron behaved towards Hermione in the first journey to Hogwarts! I loved their equation... They were best friends from the very start. Also after seeing Sirius' room, I must say that he is my new hero :love: You have to love a man who has posters of bikini clad MUGGLE girls in his room... Could he get more cooler?????

12. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you?

SIRIUS BLACK!!!!!! I love Sirius Black to death. His death was the only death that truly affected me... He is extremely loyal and generous and straightforward. He was also a risk taker and a restless man who was always doing something. He had such a force of character and I must say he stole every scene he was in... He was the kind of guy who take a bullet for his best friend and die saving the ones he loved and that is exactly what he did... How can one not love him????:lol: Also *cough he was sexy *cough... After Sirius I love James.. I think he the most awesome dad and friend...:)

Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Again he was a brilliant and talented man who happens to be the only person to have ever escaped Azkaban.... I am sure his skill were very very appreciated by his friends!

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think Peter may have felt like that most of the time.As for Remus I think he's always under appreciated himself,he probably thought he didn't deserve to have friends and therefore never considered whether he was being denied anything.He might have,James and Sirius were obviously close.

2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I always believed it was a process of elimination.Neither Remus or Sirius thought Peter was capable hence they suspected each other.

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both I suppose.They wanted to help,being animagus seemed a good solution,but I'm sure the possibility for adventures didn't go over-looked,they would have found it appealing.

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
Not sure.

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
Not much probably.

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I don't think the god-father issue bothered him much,but I think by this time Remus would have felt slightly left out.Sirius was best man,he was god -father,late the secret keeper.Sirius was obviously more important in James eyes,but again I doubt Remus made too much of it,again just being thankful that he was accepted at all.

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
Peter decisions to me had always come out of cowardice,He was selfish IMO.there's really so little real character development on his part.He ends as he starts off,even towards the end I fail to see why he was in Gryffindor ,or see any of his virtues(were there any?).I don't know if they could forgive him,he caused everyone so much pain.Who knows.

8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
No ,I think they all wanted to fight(except peter).All had personal reasons,but they were good people,they did what was right.

9. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

It would have been ,but what they're relationship would have been I cannot guess.I'm sure they had a problem with all Slytherin 's,but I think they singled him out,mainly James because of Snapes friendship with Lily.Sirius obviously wouldn't have a problem with it either.

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
They have similarities,but Fred and George never gave the impression(to me at least),that they thought they were better then others.I'd say they were worse,there's a certain amount of arrogance and unkindness in their behaviour.

11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
Nothing changed really,we didn't get much more information about them except the train scene,which if I had to say,would indicate that James and Sirius were the main instigators,but even that is not enough for canon.There's too little information to say anything definite,but overall my opinion of them remains the same.

12. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Remus,with out a doubt.He's a good honest person who's exceptionally kind and humble.He continuously struggles to do whats right and make a good example of himself,treating everyone equally.
I think they would have later in their lives more then in their youth.Remus traits are ones that are not so valued by young people.Though James and Sirius were good friends with Remus I don't think he was in the same league as them.It always seems to be 'James and Sirius',the best at everything they did,no mention of Remus,it was a two way mirror,Sirius was best man,he was God father,he was the secret keeper,Remus seems to be left out.They were good friends not doubt,but Remus I sadly feel,was a little less important.

They have similarities,but Fred and George never gave the impression(to me at least),that they thought they were better then others.I'd say they were worse,there's a certain amount of arrogance and unkindness in their behavior.


Hm.... They were stupid birks as teenagers but as men we have more than enough canon to support that they were kind men... Dumbledore himself said that James would have forgiven Peter... and Sirius was a kind man in general. He was protecting crookshanks in the third book remember??? He was ready to die but he would not let a cat take the fall... Plus he was kind to Harry and Buckbeak. In the third book he almost risked getting caught because he was worried about Ron...a boy he had just met. Plus like I have mentioned before Fred and George were no saints. They pushed a fellow student into the vanishing cabinet and he went missing for several days. Montague came back disoriented and almost dead and they did not show any remorse... So yeah I would say James and Sirius were a lot like Fred and George except they were much better! They did everything the twins did and on top of that they accomplished becoming animagi (a feat accomplished by only seven others in the century) and they were good looking and they got great grades... I would be amazed if they weren't arrogant. They grew out of it. Also I refuse to judge them solely on how they treated Snape... that is like judging Harry, based only on his behavior towards Draco...

They did everything the twins did and on top of that they accomplished becoming animagi (a feat accomplished by only seven others in the century) and they were good looking and they got great grades... I would be amazed if they weren't arrogant. They grew out of it. Also I refuse to judge them solely on how they treated Snape... that is like judging Harry, based only on his behavior towards Draco...

Draco ,IMO started it,if he hadn't then I doubt Harry would have been that concerned with him. I'm sure becoming an animigus wasn't that hard,they were clever ,so are many ppl,as for looks I really don't understand how that makes a person better then another,I don't see these thing entitle someone to arrogance,anyway it's just my opinion.

Draco ,IMO started it,if he hadn't then I doubt Harry would have been that concerned with him. I'm sure becoming an animigus wasn't that hard,they were clever ,so are many ppl,as for looks I really don't understand how that makes a person better then another,I don't see these thing entitle someone to arrogance,anyway it's just my opinion.

The book says that becoming an Animagi is quite difficult magic during which many things can go wrong, that is why someone at the Ministry generally oversees the process. It took them 3 years to figure out and DD declared that he thought it had been an extraordinary achievement (POA). So I would have to respectfully disagree that it was not difficult to accomplish. It was also quite time consuing. :)

Draco ,IMO started it,if he hadn't then I doubt Harry would have been that concerned with him. I'm sure becoming an animigus wasn't that hard,they were clever ,so are many ppl,as for looks I really don't understand how that makes a person better then another,I don't see these thing entitle someone to arrogance,anyway it's just my opinion.

I never said that good looking people are better than others. But if you are fifteen and every girl is fawning over you and you have accomplished what most adults don't in a lifetime... You tend to get carried away. Again we have canon to believe that James and Sirius were not unkind but simply teenage idiots... As adults we see them as caring individuals. We see James dying for his family... we see Sirius risking getting caught because he was worried about a boy he had just met (Ron in POA). We also see Sirius eating rats to be close to Harry. That doesn't strike me as unkind... :)
Also becoming an animagus is very hard... only seven people have accomplished it in this century. If becoming an animagus was so easy then every witch and wizard would be one. We know that brewing the polyjuice potion is extraordinarily difficult... the science of animagi must be a million times harder than that.
Hm.. Draco and Harry loathed each other from the moment they met... If my memory serves me right Draco only had a problem with Ron making fun of his name. Draco was extending his hand in friendship towards Harry.

The book says that becoming an Animagi is quite difficult magic during which many things can go wrong, that is why someone at the Ministry generally oversees the process. It took them 3 years to figure out and DD declared that he thought it had been an extraordinary achievement (POA). So I would have to respectfully disagree that it was not difficult to accomplish. It was also quite time consuing. :)

Not difficult as in not impossible.I think Hermione could have done it.Maybe even Harry,he was able to learn a corporal patronus in his third year which later people find impressive,my point being I'm sure there were others who could have done it,provided they put in the work.

I never said that good looking people are better than others.

Sorry you said they were better then others then said they were good looking,I thought that was what you were implying.

only seven people have accomplished it in this century
Only seven people registered.there could have been a number of unregistered animigi around,such a Rita skeeter.

Hm.. Draco and Harry loathed each other from the moment they met... If my memory serves me right Draco only had a problem with Ron making fun of his name. Draco was extending his hand in friendship towards Harry.
And Draco spent the rest of the year putting them down whenever he got the chance.I think if he hadn't that wouldn't have been bothered with him.
As I said ,what I said is just my opinion,don't take it personally.

Not difficult as in not impossible.I think Hermione could have done it.Maybe even Harry,he was able to learn a corporal patronus in his third year which later people find impressive,my point being I'm sure there were others who could have done it,provided they put in the work.

I am sorry but I am almost definitely sure that whilst Hermione could have done it with rigorous studying... she would not have been able to do it whilst also concentrating on her studies and have some fun in the process. Also I don't think any of the trio was capable of becoming animagi as teenagers. Their power would have most definitely improved as they grew up. Sirius and James did as fifteen year olds! Plus they helped Peter as well. If every clever witch or wizard could have done it... then we would have people like Shacklebolt, Arthur becoming animagi as well. The only other person who became an animagi that we know of was Mcgonnagal and she was the teacher of that subject!
Also Hermione could not even handle the time turner... I think Hermione is a brilliant witch but she lacked vision and creativity... She even refused to follow the instructions of the potions book in the sixth book because it wasn't "official"

I am sorry but I am almost definitely sure that whilst Hermione could have done it with rigorous studying... she would not have been able to do it whilst also concentrating on her studies and have some fun in the process. Also I don't think any of the trio was capable of becoming animagi as teenagers.

I think Hermione definitely could have,she did the DA coins while studying and arranging a secret army.She does seem to do an awful lot,she could have managed.Maybe even Harry could have.But like I've said,it's just my opnion.

I think Hermione is a brilliant witch but she lacked vision and creativity
She did an amazing amount of creative magic in DH,she saved them countless times.But we're getting off topic now.

I respect your opinion... You are probably right :) Anyway this thread is about the marauders. They did do the impossible for a bunch of teenagers and they did it for their friend. We know from canon that they were good at everything. So you take Hermione's brains and put it on these two guys who were also the height of cool... you get Sirius and James.... Also I would like to point out that Mcgonnagal called them "exceptionally bright"... coming from Mcgonnagal it probably means that they were genius's...

coming from Mcgonnagal it probably means that they were genius's...

I wouldn't use the word genius's.What she said was in private among other teachers,we don't know what she said about other people.

1.How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I would say Peter defintiely felt insecure and inferior. IMO he was treated that way at least from what we see in SWM.

2.Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

I think it was simply because Remus was a werewolf. James wasn't a very good judge of character IMO and it is much easier to assume the worst of someone who seems more likely to fit the part.

3.James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

I am sure it felt adventurous to them. Sadly it could have ended with bad consquences of someone being bitten or killed on one of their outings. In a way they did a good thing to try and help their friend but it is also was very risky.


4.What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

I assume they thought he was a bit silly and lovesick. Really don't know since we have much canon on it.

5.How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

Honestly I don't think she influenced them as a group much at all. She didn't date James until the 7th year and when they married they were off living their own life. She was obviously friendly with them all.

6.James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I am not sure they would have been hurt. Surely they realized how close James and Sirius were. I seriously doubt Peter would have cared being that he was already spying at that point for Voldemort.

7.Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I just think Peter was only interested in one thing himself. He never seemed to show remorse in DH. He only payed back his life debt when Harry reminded him. Whether they would have forgiven him is a hard one to answer. I certianly wouldn't.

8.Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think James and Lily may have been the first to join with Sirius and the rest following.

9.The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

I am not sure it would have been much different had Snape been sorted into Gryffindor. I think Snape was singled out. Obviously from the first day on the train. Over the years as James became more romantically interested in Lily the rivalry grew. We know now that was the real reason for the animosity.

10.How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think James and Sirius were obvious bullies. The twins are very comparable in that they have done some not so nice things too. From what we see in the books SWM and the werewolf prank are pretty horrible at least to me. So I would say they were somewhat worse than the Weasley twins.


11.Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

James did not come out so good IMO. Of course I don't think he is completely horrible or anything like that. I was surprised though that the werewolf prank came before SWM. That was a bit of a shocker. My opinion of Sirius stayed the same basically. My opinion of Peter has been low and he never showed any real remorse so I feel basically the same about him too. Remus had some interesting character development in DH. They showed him go through some real hardships with bringing a baby into the world during a war. I liked how we got to see how he was feeling and how in the end he died bravely even though it was very sad.


12.Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

Definitely Remus. He was the one I could indentify with the best and understand. He was different and a bit of loner in a way,scared of commitment. He was the most mature out of the marauders and he wasn't a bully. He seemed to have some real depth to his character. I am not sure the other marauders appreciated his traits. Sirius did say that he made them feel bad about themselves so perhaps as they grew older they realized.

First off, I don't see why everyone is assuming that itellengence is the only requirment for becoming an Animagi, if it was, then we why aren't DD, Voldemort, Grindelwald, Nicholas Flammel, etc. ,whom were all extremely bright, Animagus. So I think that its more natural born potential than something you could just become.

As for their arragant nature(which they all grew out of). They were teenagers, teenagers that were bright (even Peter), teenagers that everyone else saw as cool, teenagers that did many things right under DD's nose, etc. the list goes on and on, it would have been hard not to let that get to you.

First off, I don't see why everyone is assuming that itellengence is the only requirment for becoming an Animagi, if it was, then we why aren't DD, Voldemort, Grindelwald, Nicholas Flammel, etc. ,whom were all extremely bright, Animagus. So I think that its more natural born potential than something you could just become.

As for their arragant nature(which they all grew out of). They were teenagers, teenagers that were bright (even Peter), teenagers that everyone else saw as cool, teenagers that did many things right under DD's nose, etc. the list goes on and on, it would have been hard not to let that get to you.

What I meant by intelligent, was that they figured it out all on their own at such a young age. I think the reason that so many wizards were not animagi was that it was difficult to become one (in a magical sense - it took a long time and the process was not simple - DD gave us that impression by calling it an exceptional achievement), you had to have someone from the Ministry watching over you through the process (if you did it legally) - and finally because some people likely did not want to become animagi. I am pretty sure that DD and Voldy could have figured it if they had wanted to. I don't think either saw any advantage in doing so. Just my opinion of course. :)

Other wizards also did not have / do not have the strong incentive that Peter, James, and Sirius had to become animagi. The devotion they showed to Remus was incredible. The hijinks that they got into may not have been so incredible, but it was an incredible way to show just how devoted friends they were.

I voted for Remus, though I gave Sirius a look before deciding. James is too much of a cipher, and Peter - well, let's just say I liked his death scene. ;)

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think Peter did, and Sirius's treatment of it would only have confirmed this belief. I think Remus did too, but not because of James and Sirius's friendship. but because his lycanthropy made him insecure.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I think it may have taken some work by Peter to achieve this. But since he was in my opinion vastly underestimated by all, I don't think this was a huge challenge for him.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both. And their excursions outside the Shack were reckless, as well.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
Sirius seemed amused, in SWM. I figure Lupin probably approved of her, and Peter did in the long run (see below).

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I think she may have tried to 'help' Peter, may have seen the inferior position he occupied within that group. I see this as the significance of his visit to her (mentioned in DH) as well as his presence between James and Lily in the Order photograph Harry was shown in OotP. It was too little, too late.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I think any other choice among the three was inconceivable. (A male relative or friend of Lily's would have been a possibility, if such existed, but no one else for James). So I don't think anyone was at all hurt or surprised. It woudl be like objecting to the sun rising inthe morning.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I think he could have been, if it had led to a favored position in the DEs. Unfortunately for Peter, Voldemort was vaporized immediately thereafter, and Peter never reaped much benefit from the betrayal. Could his friends forgive him? They did not, it's canon. Sirius had many years to do it, and Remus had three. In the afterlife? If they meet there at all, they will be different people, IMO. So probably yes. I think Peter truly being sorry about it and showing this in a meaningful way would be a prerequisite, one which was not met by him in life.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I think Remus might have joined on his own, regardless of the decisions of James and Sirius. He owed a lot to Dumbledore, after all. Peter I do think joined because all his friends were going to.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
I think they did single out Snape from the start (and things may have also gotten nastier around year 5, when James became interested in Lily). Sirius and Remus explain to Harry that Snape was a 'special case'. He was also in some ways an easier target that Avery and Mulciber, who were purebloods raised exclusively within the wizard world, and since their fathers or other male relatives were first-generation DEs, probably not dirt poor either - why would Tom bother with the dregs?

If Snape had been Sorted into Gryffindor their relationship would not have been as bad. I don't think McGonagall would not have tolerated it, for one thing. We see nothing like this kind of behavior within Gryffindor in Harry's era. Snape would also have had a suitable and popular friend in the House, in the form of Lily. If indeed there were so few kids in the House that Snape roomed with the Marauders, they would have had to include him or buy him off in some way, since they did all sorts of nocturnal activities.
(This is my theory for how Peter ended up a Marauder, FWIW).

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think the Twins were just as bad as them, actually. Incidents like SWM and the Ton Tongue Toffee (Muggle-baiting going straight from the definition) are beyond joking. In Remus, the Marauders did have greater scope for causing lethal danger to people, but I feel sure the Twins would have reacted the same way if offered a comparable opportunity.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
No, it did not (which rather surprised me, I expected to see something new to like in James at the least). The portrayal remained consistent with their portrayal throughout the rest of the series, the good along with some notable flaws. Since I think all but Peter turned out to be basically good people, I suppose the portrayal was favorable.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
I voted for Lupin. He is reasonably bright, and studious. He is loyal to his old friends, and a good teacher. He is the most responsible among them. And his flaws annoy me less than those of his friends. :D

Of these traits, I think his friends appreciated the loyalty, and his responsible nature, particularly his functioning at times as the 'conscience' of the group. They also liked his lycanthropy, which I could take or leave.

I wouldn't use the word genius's.What she said was in private among other teachers,we don't know what she said about other people.

*coughs* I beg to differ... They were teenagers when Dumbledore recruited them for the order... And also James defied Voldemort three times. Sirius was the only man ever to break out of Azkaban... I would call them exceptionally brilliant....

*coughs* I beg to differ... They were teenagers when Dumbledore recruited them for the order... And also James defied Voldemort three times. Sirius was the only man ever to break out of Azkaban... I would call them exceptionally brilliant....

I wouldn't.Lets just disagree shall we?

"Sirius told me how they became Animagi last night" said Dumbledore smiling. "An extraordinary achievement- not least ".... Ahem Dumbledore thinks what Sirius and James achieved was extraordinary... And what Dumbledore says is pretty much canon as far as I am concerned...:D In Dumbledore I trust :lol:

Let's call it a truce, shall we? Interpretation of canon is always tricky because there are so man different viewpoints, which are equally valid. :)

Let's call it a truce, shall we? Interpretation of canon is always tricky because there are so man different viewpoints, which are equally valid. :)

:D... You are the boss...:p

Padfootrules,just because you believe something doesn't mean everyone else has too aswell.As Moriath says(and as I previously said) lets just disagree please.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think both of them felt inferior, but due to other causes than James' and Sirius' friendship.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
That's hard to say because we know so little. I can imagine several reasons but they are nothing but possibilities. We don't know if Peter schemed against Remus but it might be possible.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Probably more adventurous than noble. I think James and Sirius were attracted by the delicious prospect of being able to get out of the castle at night without them being recognized and therefore fooling everyone else, whereas Peter probably tagged along.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
I think they mainly supported it, but probably teased him from time to time.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I don't know if Lily was the "Yoko factor" for the Marauders, but by the time of the Potters' death, the four Marauders had obviously parted ways in varying degrees. If that was because of Lily is uncertain, but since the other 3 had not formed families or even relationships at that time, it was IMO natural for James to spend more time with his new family.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I doubt they would have expected being chosen anyway.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I am still wondering why exactly Peter betrayed them. From the glimpses we got of them, I got the feeling that Peter as the weakest member of the gang was not shown too much respect. Maybe his motivation to join Voldy was not only wanting to be on the stronger side, but revenge as well. And no, I don't think they would have forgiven him.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
That seems to be a general pattern with them, so probably yes.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
Probably, although I doubt they would have been friends, but the Marauders, especially James, would probably have recognized him as one of their kind, as they did with Peter. And yes, IMO they singled Snape out, but maybe not from the start. But it seriously must have stung James' pride that Lily whom he tried to impress would prefer to hang out with a poor Slytherin student instead of himself.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I personally like Fred and George better then the Marauders. They were more into subversive fun, but not so much ganging up on others and bullying them.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
Not really, OotP did more than DH. I have not liked them much since then, and I don't think they were exactly portrayed as favourable.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Definitely Remus, because he seemed more compassionate and considerate and not as conceited as James and Sirius. And uhmmm, I thought Scabbers was really cool until he turned into Peter Pettigrew :err:...

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think both of them felt inferior, but more so on Peter.
Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I think it was because since Peter was "Dead" and Sirius was in Azkaban, that meant that Remus was the only one left because he was friends with James and Lily.
James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
It was both. When the Marauder's found out that Remus was a werewolf, the wanted to help him in any way they could. It was also adventurous because they went to Hogsmeade and the forest on every full moon.
What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
They supported him, but teased him everytime they could.
James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I think Remus was understanding, since he knew that James and Sirius were very close friends, whereas Peter probably didn't care.
Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I think that since he was the weakest member of the Marauders, he felt that he wanted to feel more powerful. I don't believe that his friends would forgive him at all. It was his choice to become a Death Eater and that was his fault.
Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
For James, Sirius, Remus and Lily, it was a joint decision. For Peter, once again, he was just following the pack.
The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
Well, if he was sorted into Gryffindor, they probably would have teased him as much, but wouldn't be his friend. I think they might have antagonized some other Slytherins but not as much as they did to Snape.
How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
They both are very different. Fred and George's pranks are more towards having fun and pranking everyone. The Marauder's pranks were more towards SNape and antagonizing him.
Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
No. I think Order of the Phoenix put my mind in a different perspective of the Marauders more the Deathly Hallows.
Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Sirius and Remus. Sirius was always the one to make the group laugh. Remus because even though he was prefect, I don't think he took his job that seriously since he was part of the Marauders, and that just makes me laugh.

Hmm, even if some don't find the Marauders' achievement of becoming animagi all that exceptional, which is an opinion I respect - they definitely were very talented young men. The Marauder's Map is an incredibly complex and remarkable object - it shows where people are and what they're doing, it shows secret passage ways in and out of the castle, it shows almost every bit of the castle and the grounds, it recognizes who is trying to read it and helps them along if they're welcome and insults them if they're not, and it never lies. It shows true identities. Now that is definitely an unprecedented achievement!

The marauders' accumulated knowledge even helped out years later (besides Fred, George, and Harry roaming the castle) - at the final battle, the knowledge that they gleaned was used in the defense of the castle. Lupin took the grounds, and Fred and George led the defense of the passageways. This was all tracable back to the knowledge of the castle that the four boys gained, in part because of becoming animagi.

Hmm, even if some don't find the Marauders' achievement of becoming animagi all that exceptional, which is an opinion I respect - they definitely were very talented young men. The Marauder's Map is an incredibly complex and remarkable object - it shows where people are and what they're doing, it shows secret passage ways in and out of the castle, it shows almost every bit of the castle and the grounds, it recognizes who is trying to read it and helps them along if they're welcome and insults them if they're not, and it never lies. It shows true identities. Now that is definitely an unprecedented achievement!

I agree; in my opinion, both feats show that they were extremely talented lads. I know poeple don't count Peter, but I don't think he was unintelligent. He was a fairly good magician in later life. So I would say that he participated along with the others. With the really tricky stuff like animagi magic, he obviously required a bit of help :)

I agree; in my opinion, both feats show that they were extremely talented lads. I know poeple don't count Peter, but I don't think he was unintelligent. He was a fairly good magician in later life. So I would say that he participated along with the others. With the really tricky stuff like animagi magic, he obviously required a bit of help :)

Yeah, agreed. I mean, Peter blew up a street with one flick of his wand, killing a dozen muggles, he cut off his finger, and transfigured, right under a bunch of bystanders' noses. He also brewed the potion that restored Voldemort's body, which must have been quite tricky. So he wasn't stupid, by any means. He just wasn't quite as talented in every subject like his friends.

I always saw the animagi feat as very difficult, personally. I mean, I'm sure many more people would be animagi if they put in the effort - Rita Skeeter for one would have loved the idea of spying on people for info, so I'm sure she tried extremely hard to achieve it - but I don't think that means it's easy. Like Ginny said, "after living with Fred and George, you start believing anything's possible if you have enough nerve" - well, not everyone has enough nerve to become an animagus! So I'd say it's still quite a feat, especially for students.

So something dawned on me when I was in another thread and I thought I would share it. :)

In the Forest Again (DH), when describing Lupin, the narration reads that he seemed so happy to be once again in a place of so many youthful wanderings.

That got me thinking - while we know from time to time the Marauders actually made it into Hogsmead during their moonlight excursions, evidently, they also spent a large amount of time in the forbidden forest as well. I got to thinking that perhaps they spent most of their time there because it would be much more fun to roam around freely among others who lived there. Apparently they didn't have too much trouble with the Centaurs and such or they wouldn't have gone their so frequently. I would imagine as long as they just frolicked about and played, the others would largely ignore them.

They may have even made friends with some of the others living there. I was thinking this was more reasonable a place for them to be because all of them had their wits about them (Lupin less, but he said he did keep his mind more when they were with him), and Sirius and James didn't likely want to spend the whole evening blocking 'close calls' with humans in Hogsmead. Besides, it wasn't likely fun running up and down largely open, empty streets with nothing to do really- it would be much more fun to be in the forest - much more to explore, no getting into trouble and no close calls. Plus, less chance of being caught by someone alerting the Ministry (or local Wizard Authorities) that 3 large animals were on the loose in Hogsmead once a month. :)

Anyway, I hadn't really given it any thought before, but since the only time Remus 'wandered' was when his friends were with him, they had to have spent tons of time in the forest. I bet it was a lot of fun.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I don't think so. It's not uncommon that a pair (or pairs) of people will become closer within a group; it's happened to me before. I think all four marauders were very tight anyway despite James' and Sirius' closer friendship.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
It seems to be that it started out as a noble idea, with Lupin in mind but it turned into more of an adventure.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
I'm not sure if I agree with the use of the word "obsession" here. I don't think James was obsessed with Lily. Either way, I think it may have changed things for the group in some ways but judging by the way Sirius and Lupin have spoken about Lily as adults, it appears that they learned to like Lily too.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
This is kind of like the first question. I'm sure that both were aware of James' and Sirius' closeness so I doubt the decision surprised them at all. I think they would have understood completely.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
Peter's betrayal was terrible and it caused so much pain for the marauders. He would have had to do something pretty major to redeem himself in their eyes, I think.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
From what we know of Lupin, I think it is clear that he, like James and Sirius, would have gladly joined the order in a heartbeat. They were all good people. Peter on the other hand, was a bit of a coward and may have just joined to follow the crowd.


The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
It appears that they did single out Snape. There may have been others they weren't so friendly towards but Snape seemed to be their favourite target. I doubt this would have been different if he were in Gryffindor. They bullied him because of who he was, not what house he was in.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I don't really like Marauder/Weasley twin comparisons. They did have their simlarities; they were both trouble-makers, I suppose. However, it seems the Marauders were more cruel in their trouble-making while the twins were just having fun.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Sirius for his honesty, bravery, determination and loyalty. I'm sure the marauders appreciated these traits.

There's a few questions that I haven't answered there. I'll be back for those another time. :D

IchLiebeGeorge asked me if I would post the link to my essay about the Marauders on this thread, because it really says everything I believe about their group dynamics and how the whole SK problem came to happen:

http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3507.0

All my analysis is at that link. Feel free to quote it if you want to discuss the idea. :)

In a nutshell, my theory is about "Groupthink" or the fact that small groups often refuse outside interaction or help, and sometimes their decisions become too risky or illogical. People believe that members of groups should always try to get along and agree with eachother, and no one should ever question a group decision or act as Devil's Advocate.

Lily plays Devil's Advocate in SWM, questioning why it is happening. Lupin also does when he "makes them feel ashamed sometimes." Snape questions James's views from day one on the train, and is alway considered an "outsider," especially since he is in Slytherin, and "outside" of the approved House of Gryffindor. Dumbledore questions James about whether he should choose Sirius as the SK, and James rejects his view.

That goes to what Lupin says about James being offended if someone accused him of not trusting a friend.

The Marauders were a very close-knit group, and Lily became one of them. But what happened at every stage of the friendship is that there were others who were considered "outsiders. " Basically, they circled the wagons, and that should have saved them, but they were fooled by Peter.

Because of the secrecy involved with Lupin and the fact that they were illegal Animagi, they constantly had to "protect" the group and test each other's loyalty. I believe that became a habit, first with Snape, whom they wanted to keep his "nose" out of their business and away from Lily, then with Lupin, whom they suspected was a spy, and later with Dumbledore, who did not know all their secrets.

Peter played up the idea that he was a loyal friend, and he went right along with Sirius and the Secret Keeper plan. His compliant behavior was the reason they never suspected him. I imagine that the reason Lupin was thought to be a spy was due to perhaps questioning Sirius or James on some of their decisions, which they felt was a "threat" to their group activities. So they thought he was a spy instead of Peter.

IchLiebeGeorge asked me if I would post the link to my essay about the Marauders on this thread, because it really says everything I believe about their group dynamics and how the whole SK problem came to happen:

http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3507.0

All my analysis is at that link. Feel free to quote it if you want to discuss the idea. :)

In a nutshell, my theory is about "Groupthink" or the fact that small groups often refuse outside interaction or help, and sometimes their decisions become too risky or illogical. People believe that members of groups should always try to get along and agree with eachother, and no one should ever question a group decision or act as Devil's Advocate.

Lily plays Devil's Advocate in SWM, questioning why it is happening. Lupin also does when he "makes them feel ashamed sometimes." Snape questions James's views from day one on the train, and is alway considered an "outsider," especially since he is in Slytherin, and "outside" of the approved House of Gryffindor. Dumbledore questions James about whether he should choose Sirius as the SK, and James rejects his view.

That goes to what Lupin says about James being offended if someone accused him of not trusting a friend.

The Marauders were a very close-knit group, and Lily became one of them. But what happened at every stage of the friendship is that there were others who were considered "outsiders. " Basically, they circled the wagons, and that should have saved them, but they were fooled by Peter.

Because of the secrecy involved with Lupin and the fact that they were illegal Animagi, they constantly had to "protect" the group and test each other's loyalty. I believe that became a habit, first with Snape, whom they wanted to keep his "nose" out of their business and away from Lily, then with Lupin, whom they suspected was a spy, and later with Dumbledore, who did not know all their secrets.

Peter played up the idea that he was a loyal friend, and he went right along with Sirius and the Secret Keeper plan. His compliant behavior was the reason they never suspected him. I imagine that the reason Lupin was thought to be a spy was due to perhaps questioning Sirius or James on some of their decisions, which they felt was a "threat" to their group activities. So they thought he was a spy instead of Peter.

I haven't time to read your essay now, but I will later on :) I have study group and now I am going to be looking at each of them suspiciously!! (just kidding :lol:)

One thing about the summary; I would just repeat that the only canon that we have is that "Sirius mistrusted Remus and that Remus mistrusted Sirius". Peter of course mistrusted neither (knowing he was the villian). We do not have canon that James mistrusted anyone - nor that he acted on a mistrust for anyone). I think POA - S. Shack is very relevant to this. If they all had mistrusted Remus, then instead of Remus declaring that he'd mistrusted Sirius, I am certain Remus would have explained to Harry that "they all" mistrusted him and explained why. Instead, both Sirius and Remus later explained why they individually felt mistrust for one another (due to Peter).

I think more telling was Remus later declaring that James would have considered it the height of dishonor to mistrust his friends. It isn't just that Remus made the statement, it is when and for what reason. Remus was trying to convince Harry that James' unequivocal trust of his friends had led to problems - and that there were times when it was best to question. It would have been much easier for Remus to make his point if he could point out to Harry that "even his father had questioned the trust of his best friends" using himself as an example if that had been the case.

So I would have to conclude that James trusted all of his fellow Marauders equally and without fail to his death. Respecting your opinion if it is distinct of course. :)

I had to put both Sirius and Remus. I couldn't decide. James is up there too, but Sirius and Remus, so tough to pick.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
If it had been a group of girls, they definitely would have felt left out. I never really got this feeling from Remus, though, so I think I would be projecting my own emotions onto the character if I said "yes."

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I have no idea. He seems incredibly trustworthy to me. Perhaps he was a suspect because he kept more to himself, which made him seem more aloof?

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both. While they did it for Remus, they also did it for themselves and the thrill.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
They were probably bored with it. They might have tried to talk him out of it, but I think they might have just ignored it to a cretain extent.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
When she was dating James I imagine that she calmed him down a good bit. She seemed like a wonderful person, so I'm sure she got along with everyone well. I don't think she intruded on their group, but was a prominent part of James' life nonetheless.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
Again, I would have to say both. They knew that Sirius and James were the closest, but were probably hurt at the same time because they were all close.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think he was ever happy with it, and I think they would all forgive him if they had the chance. Well, maybe not Sirius because of the framing and Azkaban.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I don't think Remus would have joined the Order without some pressure, but was thankful once he did.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
I think Snape was singled out. It would have been different if he had been sorted into Gryffindor, but then there would have been conflict with Lily being a romantic interest.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think the Marauders were worse, as they tended more to target other students, although we don't really know for sure. They also had more of a group mentality, which could be more bully-ish.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
They were portrayed in a very realistic light, I think, which was nice. In DH they seemed more human; James wasn't a superhero saving the world, Remus was afraid, Sirius was bitter. It made me like them more, though.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
I love to read about Sirius, but as a person, Remus is my favorite. He was thoughtful and loyal and a good friend. I don't think he was fully appreciated, but will be by readers now.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

Personally, I don't feel that it made a big enough impact on Remus for it to be an issue. Now Peter, he was probably jealous of them.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

Was he really the main suspect? I thought there were several main suspects, and Remus just happened to be one of them.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

A bit of both. Noble because they wanted to be with their friend and help him rather than leave him. Adventurous because... well, they're the Marauders! Always up to mischeif.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

They might have thought of it as a little abnormal, but they probably put up with it because James was their friend.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

After James and Lily started dating, James probably became less arrogant and trouble-making. Lily probably influenced James to be less of a pranker.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Sirius was James' best mate. I bet Remus understood, but I always had my doubts about Peter. He was probably jealous.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

He probably regretting this decision. He didn't like working for Voldemort (he flinched whenever they were near, whined at doing work, etc). I'm not sure about his friends forgiving him.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think that James and Sirius joined the Order, then Remus did because he also wanted to fight, but Peter was probably reluctant to join. He probably only joined to be protected, not to protect others.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

The Marauder's relationship with Snape had mostly to do with James. James hated Snape, for his love of the Dark Arts, for the fact that he was in Slytherin, for his slimy hair, but mostly because Snape also had a crush on Lily. The Marauders would have still disliked Snape if he were in Gryffindor because James suspected that Snape had a crush on Lily. I believe that they singled out Snape from the start.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I think they were just as funny as the Weasley twins, but sometimes went over the line. I imagine Sirius as getting into fights with Slytherins about being a blood traitor. The pranks that the Marauders pulled might have been a little more harmful than the ones the Weasleys pulled.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

The Deathly Hallows did not change my mind at all about the Marauders. I still love them. It only changed my mind slightly about Snape. And a little about Remus, but that's understandable. I don't think they were portrayed favorably or unfavorably. Remus was looked at a bit on the down side, but that's it.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

My favorite Marauder has to be Remus. I loved James and Sirius, but Remus is my favorite. He was smart, handsome, hard-working, and troublesome (at times). And he knew, unlike James and Sirius, when to draw the line. The other Marauders probably appreciated all the traits except the one on when to draw the line.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
No one felt left out. The relationship of the Marauders was an odd one although it may not seem so. James and Sirius were very close, much closer to each other than to the other two. However, Remus thought he wouldn't have any friends whatsoever because he was a werewolf, so the fact that he not only had friends, but very good friends seemed to be enough for him. Peter was very similar, he wanted to hang out with the cool kids, and wanted to be where he felt protected and powerful, so he hung around James, Sirius, and Remus. So although James and Sirius may have been better friends with each other than with anyone else did not interfere with the relationship of the Marauders as a group, because the four Marauders were all looking for slightly different things out of their friends, and they all got that.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
The only reason I believe that Remus was a suspect in 1981 was because James refused to believe that Sirius was turn on him, and didn't believe that Peter had the ability to be a double-crosser. By process of elimination Remus was the only one left. The fact that Peter was seen as the weakest of the crew led James to believe it couldn't be him.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
It started off as noble. Remus was alone, and thought he would be that way forever. So when James, Sirius and Peter decided they were going to Animagi to interact with Remus while he was transformed was a noble act, especially toward Remus. After it finally happened, however, the Marauders put themselves in terrible danger, and they continued it for the thrill.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
I wouldn't say that James was obsessed with Lily. He had a crush, and the Marauders, acting like teenage boys do, probably egged him on. Met little comments about it here and there and stuff that teenagers do, other than that, they probably thought it just a crush, Lily was attractive after all, so they probably weren't surprised.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I don't think she did. After they left Hogwarts is the only time we see a change in James, and that does not have to be accredited to Lily, James had started a family, and settled down. Maybe Lily asked them to lessen the teasing of Snape, but I don't know if I see that as a problem.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
Understanding. The Marauders never showed signs of jealousy, Remus was somewhat understanding of why he was singled out as the traitor, which is a big thing to just get over and forget. So I don't think he would have worried about being the Godfather, Peter was on the eve of turning of the Potters, so I don't think the was heartbroken either.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
Peter was happy being on the side of the most powerful, even though he feared Voldemort he probably hero-worshiped him like he did to James and Sirius, so although he was living in fear, he was living with power, so he was happy. As evident by Sirius' and Remus' reactions I doubt James or Lily would have forgiven him.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I can't see any evidence either way, but I assume that James, Sirius and Remus joined because they wanted to, and Peter joined because they were.
The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonize other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
Probably the fact that the first impression James and Sirius get of Snape is him talking about how great Slytherin was put them on a bad footing with him. As they started to age, and it was evident that Snape was interested in the Dark Arts (and Lily) the relationship grew hostile, with Snape thinking Lily liked James, and James knowing Lily was friends with Snape. They just weren't the type of people who would like each other, the popular crowd and the odd kid, rival houses, "competing" over the same girl. They were destined not to like each other. I am sure the Marauders were cruel to other Dark Art lovers, but more so to Snape than anyone else, for more specific reasons.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think James and Sirius were worse than Fred and George. Although Fred and George were pretty bad, the Marauders did a lot, they uncovered all of Hogwarts, Fred and George just learned from what they did. James and Sirius also seemed more cruel that Fred and George, picking out certain people and repeatedly attacking them, although Fred and George did this with Malfoy, Fred and George generally were just jokers. While the Marauders may have gone too far at times.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favorably or came out badly?
It didn't change my view at all. I can't think of any reasons why my view would be changed. The whole Snape/Lily thing was revealed but we already knew they were cruel to Snape, so if anything it just gave a reason for that. Overall the Marauders, I believe, were portrayed favorably, but it took 7 years to finally see that.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
James would have to be my favorite Marauder. Along with Sirius he was the joker, and the brave fearless one. All the Marauders show these traits (minus Peter) however, James just had an air about him, that made me like him.

[B]Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

I think that James and Sirius joined the Order, then Remus did because he also wanted to fight, but Peter was probably reluctant to join. He probably only joined to be protected, not to protect others.


That is a good point. I always wondered about Peter joining the Order. He obviously had talent as a magician - he did kill all of the Muggles and snap off his finger without much trouble. So he probably offered good assistance as a member of the Order. It is strange, but I have to agree that he was likely there so that those around him would continue to serve as protection over all. Although it is highly possible that he too felt it was the right thing to do. I just don't know if he'd have the bravery to do it if his friends hadn't.

Still, when Voldemort came along, I am sure he really was scared witless as he indicated he was. His friends were not around at that moment and he simply was not brave enough to die rather than agree to work for Voldy. However, there was a flaw in his character I would think because at that point he could have left Voldy (when allowed) and turned to DD and his friends for protection, telling them what had happened. We don't no though if Voldy actually held him captive for a while and tortured him into obedience - having him write a letter to his friends indicating he was off with relatives or something.

Nonetheless, whatever happened that allowed Voldy to win him over was lasting; he obviously continued to believe that Voldy was the best protector. Even when his friends had had enough and were ready to kill him, Peter could have turned to DD - but he went back to Voldy instead and brought him back to life :grumble:

I suppose in the end, his remorse that caused him to choke himself and allowed the life debt to play out was something. I always figured there must have been at least an ounce of love still left in his heart for his friends, even after everything.

originally posted by wickedwickedboy
Still, when Voldemort came along, I am sure he really was scared witless as he indicated he was. His friends were not around at that moment and he simply was not brave enough to die rather than agree to work for Voldy. However, there was a flaw in his character I would think because at that point he could have left Voldy (when allowed) and turned to DD and his friends for protection, telling them what had happened. We don't no though if Voldy actually held him captive for a while and tortured him into obedience - having him write a letter to his friends indicating he was off with relatives or something.

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of a situtation like that, although it sounds like brain-washing to me. And Voldemort doesn't really need brain-washing when he has the Imperius curse. Plus, it seems to cheapen one of the overriding themes of Harry Potter, that of choice.

But you're right. Perhaps the choice Peter made was not to join Voldemort, but not to seek protection elsewhere. Perhaps at first he was too ashamed and he thought his friends would never take him back if they knew. Then he had no choice but to keep helping Voldemort, who did "accept him". What do you guys think? Do you think the Marauders would've taken Peter back if he had confessed to giving Voldemort information?

I'd like to think yes. But it certainly would've been a wake-up call, especially for James.

And I think that essay, silver ink pot, was spot on. That's a very interesting analysis, and I think you may be exactly right.

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of a situtation like that, although it sounds like brain-washing to me. And Voldemort doesn't really need brain-washing when he has the Imperius curse. Plus, it seems to cheapen one of the overriding themes of Harry Potter, that of choice.

But you're right. Perhaps the choice Peter made was not to join Voldemort, but not to seek protection elsewhere. Perhaps at first he was too ashamed and he thought his friends would never take him back if they knew. Then he had no choice but to keep helping Voldemort, who did "accept him". What do you guys think? Do you think the Marauders would've taken Peter back if he had confessed to giving Voldemort information?

I'd like to think yes. But it certainly would've been a wake-up call, especially for James.

And I think that essay, silver ink pot, was spot on. That's a very interesting analysis, and I think you may be exactly right.

If Peter had gone back immediately upon being released, then I think they would have forgiven him. But I rather think Voldy would not release him until he had tortured him into compliance. Peter, I don't think, would have immediately started ratting out his friends just because Voldy stood before him and said: 'so what do you know Peter?'. I would imagine he would lie or try to evade answering. Voldy crucioed people the minute he didn't get what he wanted (as Draco's family admitted in Malfoy Manor Chapter DH, they didn't want to be tortured as Voldy had done to others), so I am sure that Voldy immeidately set to torturing Peter and Peter gave in. He was vulnerable and insecure JKR said - so after a session or two of torture, he would switch his loyalty I figure - and then start to believe that perhaps Voldy was stronger than DD and would win. So he stayed with him.

I don't think Voldy used the imperius curse, there was nothing of that in canon. Voldy didn't force peter imo, he merely tortured him into submission according to Peter in the S. Shack. I believe, based on Voldy's character, that was likely true. But all of the other Marauders would have fought back and died rather than rat their friends out.

SIP: I forgot, I too read the essay. I think you did a good job writing. I don't agree with the idea of Group Thought, I never have. I think that like individuals, groups have too many dynamics based on the make up of the individuals in them to be placed in a box and stereotyped to be any one way. I know the group of my friends I hung with were nothing like that - so it is not always the case. However, it was fun to read. :)

Sorry - of course

Since one of the things I most want to understand is how/why they could so underestimate Peter later - can anyone give their thoughts on what kind of relationship they see James and Peter having?

Obviously Sirius is James' best bud, but what does James get out of his friendship with Peter (I'm guessing that what Peter valued in James was protection)?

Peter seems a bit of a 'fan' or maybe 'yesman' in SWM, but we have tiny peeks at him post-Hogwarts. Sitting between James and Lily in the Order photo, mentioned by Lily as being at their hiding spot in the letter to Sirius. James would seem to have felt real trust in Peter as SK - not just because he underestimated Peter, but enough that he did not keep his wand on hand.

Is this because of all their 'maraudings'? And the dependence upon each other back then? Or was it all just trust in Sirius - not in Peter?

The mere fact that Peter knew the location of whatever hiding spot the Potters were staying in at the time Lily wrote the letter seems to show how much he was trusted.
I don't think James or Sirius ever expected Peter to betray them because Peter was always, as you say, the "fan" or the "yes man", and they interpreted that as loyalty. I think that James really just enjoyed the cheering on Peter would give him so much that he eventually believed it was sincere. Even if what Sirius said is true and James' head did deflate, it couldn't have happened all at once. No one changes over night. By the time he was older, James might still have had trouble seeing why that cheering wasn't sincere.

Pettigrew, who they, in a slightly patronizing way, James and Sirius at least, who they allowed to hang round with them, it turned out that he was a better wizard than they knew. Turned out he was better at hiding secrets than they knew.

James probably underestimated Peter. We've only seen one memory of his behavior during his school days, so it's not easy guessing on the relationship the two of them had. But in SWM, Peter admits he couldn't figure out all the clues in identifying a werewolf. James responds by asking Peter how thick he is. (He said something like that, anyway.) If Peter acted like that regularly, James may have seen Peter as unintelligent. McGonagall says in PoA that Peter was a poor dueler and she scolded him often. And later in PoA, Remus says that James and Sirius did most of the work needed to become unregistered animagi. The other Marauders likely didn't see him as someone who was very intelligent and capable of keeping a secret as big as being a DE from them. I do think that James trusted Peter because Remus says as much in DH.

So I pretty much think that James trusted Peter, but never thought he could be as skilled in keeping secrets from him as he was.

:agree: Peter never really showed any extraordinary magical skills, so I think that James thought he wasn't a threat. Voldemort wouldn't want a below-average wizard like Wormtail, right? So, he therefore trusted Peter. Also, Peter was good at keeping secrets. Who was he going to tell?

Turns out James was seriously wrong about Peter.

A lot of people were wrong about Peter. McGonagall who said Peter was never in James' and Sirius' league. Sirius who thought using Peter as Secret-Keeper was a great ploy because Voldemort would never think to go after a talentless wizard like Peter. Voldemort himself who, while acknowledging that Peter was able to follow directions, also noted that he was a "poor wizard."

Peter must surely be the Rodney Dangerfield of wizards - the one who couldn't buy a bit of respect.

...Who dat? :lol:

Hmmm....I didn't mean to go off-topic onto Peter, more why James (since he's the thread head here) would 'like' him.

I'm assuming Peter wasn't the only other kid in their dorm room, since Harry's year has five and would likely be a smaller group (being born in the midst of the worst part of the war).

Maybe that's a bad assumption, but I've always figured there were more kids in the Marauders' year (born before there was any hint of war).

No, I think that the number of Hogwarts students would be about the same. There was a war going on then too. Well, towards the end of James and Lily's Hogwarts years, right?

So, James' dorm would be: James, Wormtail, Sirius, Remus, and ________

Maybe someone else was there. If there wasn't, it would make sense why James befriended Wormtail. If you share a room with someone who envys you for 7 years, there's bound to be some sort of relationship there, unless you hate the person, which James didnt

Peter was James' friend, why wouldn't he like him? He was probably funny, fun, good-natured and easy going - if a bit slow. They likely all four had a great time together. Canon doesn't reveal anything about Peter's personality as a youth, we certainly didn't get a well rounded picture of him in SWM - four or five sentences does not a character make. (I sound like Yoda :lol:). I am sure there were many things about him we don't know about that made him likeable - and James liked those things.

Yeah, probably. There's a lot about the Marauder's era we don't know, seeing as we only see this time when Harry is in someone's memory.

No, I think that the number of Hogwarts students would be about the same. There was a war going on then too. Well, towards the end of James and Lily's Hogwarts years, right?

So, James' dorm would be: James, Wormtail, Sirius, Remus, and ________

Maybe someone else was there. If there wasn't, it would make sense why James befriended Wormtail. If you share a room with someone who envys you for 7 years, there's bound to be some sort of relationship there, unless you hate the person, which James didntThis makes a lot of sense. If there were only four people in the dorm room, it would explain how Wormtail became one of James' friends. It would be a lot easier for them to sneak out at night, too, if there wasn't another person in the room who would know that they were gone at night.

But Harry and Ron easily sneak out if they want to - despite 3 other guys in the dorm.

I see Harry's year as smaller just because they are born at the height of the war. At a time Voldy seemed to be winning. Not a good time to think about bringing kids into the world. Usually a time to 'wait and see' before getting preggers. Whereas James is born in 1960. Voldy has just begun to gather followers - the war doesn't start for another 10 years. It's off the radar to most of the public.

Besides - the guys would not have needed to use the Shrieking Shack on nights other than the Full Moon IF they didn't have other roomies. They could just use their dorm room.

And I think once James got on the Quidditch team his other roomies wouldn't have a problem with his sneaking out. Besides it is more interesting to wonder why they accept Peter among them than to just make it a matter of his being the only other one in the dorm.

Did Minerva or Hagrid specify anything in PoA when discussing James and Sirius in the 3 Broomsticks? Peter is discussed then, too.

Here is what I am curious about:

Do you guys think that as an Animagi, James at some point went out alone to meet up with other stags that might be about on the grounds of Hogwarts or if there were none there, perhaps when he went home for summer in a nearby woods? If he did, how do you think he related with them as a human animagi stag to animal stag/doe? Do you think they would note he was not like them? Would they accept him anyway?

Here is what I am curious about:

Do you guys think that as an Animagi, James at some point went out alone to meet up with other stags that might be about on the grounds of Hogwarts or if there were none there, perhaps when he went home for summer in a nearby woods? If he did, how do you think he related with them as a human animagi stag to animal stag/doe? Do you think they would note he was not like them? Would they accept him anyway?
I bet he would smell wrong. They might fear him. I don't want to think about him err...interacting with does (can I say that without getting banned?). But I bet he would like butting heads with other stags.

But Harry and Ron easily sneak out if they want to - despite 3 other guys in the dorm.

If the Marauders had someone else in their dorm, it would've been a lot harder. Three of them spent years trying to become unregistered animagi - not exactly an easy thing to do with other people living in the dorm.

Did Minerva or Hagrid specify anything in PoA when discussing James and Sirius in the 3 Broomsticks? Peter is discussed then, too.

All they really said about James and Sirius was that they were very intelligent and trouble makers. Most of the conversation is about the Secret Keeper business.

If the Marauders had someone else in their dorm, it would've been a lot harder. Three of them spent years trying to become unregistered animagi - not exactly an easy thing to do with other people living in the dorm.The Marauders might have been the only boys in their year and have had a dorm room to themselves. Or, perhaps with Hogwarts magic, there are always 5 boys in each house per year, which makes one wonder what happened to the odd man out in James's year and why they liked Peter better. :huh:

The Marauders might have been the only boys in their year and have had a dorm room to themselves. Or, perhaps with Hogwarts magic, there are always 5 boys in each house per year, which makes one wonder what happened to the odd man out in James's year and why they liked Peter better. :huh:

I think that there were only four people in the dorm. I don't like the idea of there being five boys in every house for every year. It just sounds too orderly to me, I guess. How much can magic control?

Anyway, if there was another person, there could be a lot of reasons why James wasn't great friends with him. Maybe there wasn't any chemistry or maybe he abided by the rules too much . . . there are a lot of reasons.

What does Sirius say when the trio is looking for a place to hold the DA? I was under the impression that the Marauders snuck out to the Shack for other reasons than the full moon. I figured that was where they learned to transform.

What does Sirius say when the trio is looking for a place to hold the DA? I was under the impression that the Marauders snuck out to the Shack for other reasons than the full moon. I figured that was where they learned to transform.

That could be possible, it would be a good location because others were scared to go there. But why would they have to risk sneaking out at night to go there? Imo, they could just go during the day or early evening when they wouldn't be missed.

But Harry and Ron easily sneak out if they want to - despite 3 other guys in the dorm.

Harry and Ron didn't sneak out every month during the full moon. They only snuck out a few times by comparison.

PS/SS -


Harry and Ron snuck out for the Midnight Duel - accompanied by Neville and Hermione.
Harry snuck out alone and found the Mirror - during the holiday so only he and Ron were in the dorm.
Ron and Harry snuck out so Harry should show Ron the mirror - again, during the holiday so it was just the two of them.
Harry and Hermione snuck out to take Norbert to the tower - and got caught.
The trio snuck out to go after the stone - caught by Neville.


COS -


Harry and Ron snuck out to go see Hagrid the night he was arrested.
Harry and Ron snuck out to follow the spiders.


POA -


The trio used the cloak to go to Hagrid's when Buckbeak was going to be executed - they left before curfew and Snape brought them back late three hours later.


GOF -


Harry snuck out to meet Hagrid - Hermione covered for him.
Harry snuck out to use the prefects bath - Ron covered for him.


OOTP -


I don't recall any night time wanderings - although Harry was tempted when Dobby told him about the RoR.


HBP -


Harry snuck out to go to Hagrid's for Aragog's funeral.


They snuck out the most during their first year - and the only time they weren't caught was during the holiday when the rest of the students had gone home. After that, it was just once or twice per year. That's a far cry from the Marauders sneaking out every month during the full moon. And Harry and Ron had the luxury of being able to wait until the other three were sound asleep. The Marauders didn't really have that luxury because the whole purpose of becoming animagi was so they could be there for Lupin. They had to get out before moonrise.

I see Harry's year as smaller just because they are born at the height of the war. At a time Voldy seemed to be winning. Not a good time to think about bringing kids into the world. Usually a time to 'wait and see' before getting preggers. Whereas James is born in 1960. Voldy has just begun to gather followers - the war doesn't start for another 10 years. It's off the radar to most of the public.

That's not really consistent with what Jo said about the wizarding world in general. The population of the wizarding world is smaller than the muggle world. That didn't have anything to do with the war - that's just how it always was. My impression was that 10 students per house each year was the average - maybe a few more - maybe a few less. But I doubt there would ever have been more than 5 or 6 boys in any year.

It would actually be more likely that there were more students in Harry's year because of the first war. Wartime typically increases births because of unplanned pregnancies - all of the major "baby booms" have occurred during wartime. It's like Molly said in HBP, people have a tendency to rush into things they would normally put off during wartime.

Besides - the guys would not have needed to use the Shrieking Shack on nights other than the Full Moon IF they didn't have other roomies. They could just use their dorm room.

It is not said anywhere in the books that they used the Shrieking Shack at any time other than the full moon after they became animagi. It was Pettigrew who got them past the Whomping Willow because he was small enough to go under the branches and hit the knot. They had no reason to go to the shack when Lupin was not transformed. And it would have been suspicious if the villagers at Hogsmeade had reported hearing noises from the house at any other time than the full moon. That would have gotten back to Dumbledore and he would have known something was going on.

It is most likely that it was only the four of them in their dorm room so they could study the animagus transformation and practice there without worrying about anyone finding out what they were up to.

And I think once James got on the Quidditch team his other roomies wouldn't have a problem with his sneaking out. Besides it is more interesting to wonder why they accept Peter among them than to just make it a matter of his being the only other one in the dorm.

I doubt any of them would have been willing to take that risk. Not only did they have to protect Lupin's secret, but their own as well. Sneaking out every month at the full moon would have eventually drawn attention if there were other boys in their dorm. Questions would have been asked and they couldn't answer them. On top of that - after the prank - Snape was passing his theory around about Lupin being a werewolf. If anyone had known they were sneaking out every month, people would have believed Snape's theory. They couldn't take that kind of risk. It wouldn't have been fair to Lupin.

It is most likely that it was just the four of them in their year. However, I don't think that is the only reason they became friends with Pettigrew - although I'd say that was part of it. But Pettigrew hero-worshipped them as well. It wasn't a balanced friendship because of that - and they didn't have a whole lot of respect for Pettigrew in terms of his skill or talent. But I think they did care for him and they did trust him.

Did Minerva or Hagrid specify anything in PoA when discussing James and Sirius in the 3 Broomsticks? Peter is discussed then, too.

Not a great deal. They talked about how he hero-worshipped James and Sirius and how he was not very skilled or talented as a wizard.

I don't have a problem with there being more people in the Maruader's year then just the four of them. There could've been 6 or 7 boys for all we know. Just because the wizarding world is smaller doesn't mean there aren't years of "plenty". I went to a private (church-affiliated) high school, and the year ahead of me was always small. My class was always twice their size, partly due to the births within the church that year. Some years you are just going to have more kids.

But, I don't think it really matters. With their eye for trouble, them sneaking out at night probalby wasn't uncommon, so who would've noticed enough to comment?

Also, the maruaders knew more about the school then anybody. I'm sure a lot of those passageways were not discovered during full moons, like ones that are purely within the castle. They wouldn't have been dumb enough to enter the castle as animals. But they could easily have found a place no one else knew about to pratice becoming Animagi. Perhaps the area behind the mirror that caved in? The one Sirius suggested for the DA?

Well considering Jo actually imagined the school's population to be much bigger than shown in the books - about 600 students when there were, mathematically, only about 280. So if we consider the school to have about a 600 students, the Gryffindor boys' dorm would hold about 10 students. That seems wrong with everything we've seen in the books (the characters we know, the amount of brooms for their flying lesson in PS, etc), but that's how Jo imagined it, and so I'd assume she imagined the same thing for James's year. If that's how she pictured it, I doubt the Marauders would have practiced their animagus tranformations in their dorm, because that would have been all too risky.

As for sneaking out, I think they got a reputation for trouble making and such, always being in detention, so the other students in their dorm wouldn't see it as strange that they would constantly sneak out. I'm positive they snuck out more than once a month because they got to know the school so well, and that definitely would not be during Remus's transformation.

I think James befriended Peter because I'm sure Peter was a nice boy, and he definitely had some good traits that we don't really see. He seemed rather insecure, and I guess that might have something to do with it. Maybe something similar to the Troll incident in PS happened with them and it just sort of made them friends, like the trio. You never know. But I just don't think Peter was simply a fumbling mess - he did manage to become an animagi, even if he needed help with it, and he did help write the Map. So I'd say he had some traits that appealed to James and so they became genuine friends. I don't think James would trust Peter with the lives of his wife his son, along with his own, if Peter was simply a "fan" of his.

....The population of the wizarding world is smaller than the muggle world. That didn't have anything to do with the war - that's just how it always was. My impression was that 10 students per house each year was the average - maybe a few more - maybe a few less. But I doubt there would ever have been more than 5 or 6 boys in any year.

It would actually be more likely that there were more students in Harry's year because of the first war. Wartime typically increases births because of unplanned pregnancies - all of the major "baby booms" have occurred during wartime. It's like Molly said in HBP, people have a tendency to rush into things they would normally put off during wartime..Actually 'baby booms' typically happen just AFTER the war ends. e.g. the 'Baby Boomer' generation births begin right after WWII.

Harry and his year are born a year before the end of their war. At a time that Remus says was the worst of all. It looked like Voldy was winning.

You may rush to get married then to spend the last of your time together, but if you are on the losing side you don't rush to have children who would have to live under Voldy's regime. Children will be born still, just not in the same quantities.

Which brings up a good question - why would James and Lily choose to have a child then? Were they purposely trying to have a child (in case one of them died and so they would not be able to have children together) or did it just 'happen'. It is surprising that in a pretty small group group (the Order) who should well know what would happen should Voldy prevail, we have two couples that had each thrice defied Voldy and were then expecting at the height of the war.

I wonder whether it was their thrice-defyings that maybe led each couple to decide that Voldy wasn't all he was cracked up to be? After all - according to Remus - they were losing bad. The only thing that stopped Voldy from winning was his vaporization. Neither couple strikes me as the kind to plan to bring a child into a world ruled by Voldy. Did they just refuse to believe he would win? Did they believe he was still beatable because they had escaped him somehow three times each?

I think it just reflects the fact that they were optimistic, hopeful people who would never allow a tyrant to determine how they lived their lives. I think the same was true, years later, of Tonks and Lupin. They are all four the kind of people who are heroes in their own time.

I think it just reflects the fact that they were optimistic, hopeful people who would never allow a tyrant to determine how they lived their lives. I think the same was true, years later, of Tonks and Lupin. They are all four the kind of people who are heroes in their own time.

I agree and besides, these things are not always planned. But it was the wizard world and we don't know much about it all.

I am certain many people continued to have children and live life as normal as possible under the circumstances - that often happens during war time. Many people continue to think positively, even during very trying circumstances. Others are very negative and close up, and their life pretty much ends during trauma and turmoil. But those who are fighting in the effort are the brave ones and so running and hiding in the dark is out of the question.

:rotfl: I can't believe that people picked Peter as a favourite Marauder! I'm always surprised which is a good thing I think :)

I think that there were only four people in the dorm. I don't like the idea of there being five boys in every house for every year. It just sounds too orderly to me, I guess. How much can magic control?

Anyway, if there was another person, there could be a lot of reasons why James wasn't great friends with him. Maybe there wasn't any chemistry or maybe he abided by the rules too much . . . there are a lot of reasons.There doesn't have to be five per year, does this mean there weren't more people in the dorm? No, but it also doesn't mean there had to be more than just the Marauders. We have no evidence either way.

My personal opinion is that they were the only 4, it would make things much more convenient just for the purpose of our story.

Actually 'baby booms' typically happen just AFTER the war ends. e.g. the 'Baby Boomer' generation births begin right after WWII.

Harry and his year are born a year before the end of their war. At a time that Remus says was the worst of all. It looked like Voldy was winning.

You may rush to get married then to spend the last of your time together, but if you are on the losing side you don't rush to have children who would have to live under Voldy's regime. Children will be born still, just not in the same quantities.

Well, I was referring more to the fact that it is human nature to seek physical comfort during traumatic times - not actually planning to have children. Pregnancies aren't always planned. And - unlike WWII - the war with Voldemort didn't take men away from their homes and send them overseas. Couples were together to take comfort in each other when things got bad. Six of the Weasley children were born during the first war with Voldemort - Ginny was the only one born after.

Apart from the muggleborns - whose parents would not have known about the war - I doubt many of the pregnancies during that time were actually planned. I think that was more likely a "Oops, I forgot to take the potion (or use the spell)" issue. Although, that's not really a clear issue either - we don't really know if there was any kind of magical birth control - or how that would have worked.

Which brings up a good question - why would James and Lily choose to have a child then? Were they purposely trying to have a child (in case one of them died and so they would not be able to have children together) or did it just 'happen'. It is surprising that in a pretty small group group (the Order) who should well know what would happen should Voldy prevail, we have two couples that had each thrice defied Voldy and were then expecting at the height of the war.

I wonder whether it was their thrice-defyings that maybe led each couple to decide that Voldy wasn't all he was cracked up to be? After all - according to Remus - they were losing bad. The only thing that stopped Voldy from winning was his vaporization. Neither couple strikes me as the kind to plan to bring a child into a world ruled by Voldy. Did they just refuse to believe he would win? Did they believe he was still beatable because they had escaped him somehow three times each?

I'd say it's more likely that Harry was a surprise. As I said above, it's human nature to seek physical comfort during traumatic times. When people you care for die, you seek comfort - you want to feel alive. And you aren't really thinking about pregnancy at times like that.

As bad as the first war was described, it didn't stop procreation. Molly had six of her children during the first war. The number of students in Harry's year didn't appear to suffer any because of the war. I doubt all those pregnancies were planned, but life does go on - even in wartime.

But - to stay on topic - I do think that it's most likely that the Marauders were the only Gryffindor boys in their year. It makes sense because it would have been impossible for them to sneak out every month at the full moon without anyone noticing if there was another boy - or boys - in their dorm.

Another factor in that is the sorting itself. I doubt the Sorting Hat divided the students up evenly into groups of five every year. I think there would have been variations within the houses. One year there might be four Gryffindor boys and 7 Slytherin boys. Another year, there might be 3 Slytherins and 7 Gryffindors. The way the sorting worked, it couldn't have been an even division each year. People's personalities aren't evenly divided. With that in mind, there may have been more students in the Marauder's year - with the Marauders being the only 4 boys sorted into Gryffindor.

I really hope Jo puts this kind of information in the Encyclopedia - it would be interesting to know this stuff for sure. :)

As for sneaking out, I think they got a reputation for trouble making and such, always being in detention, so the other students in their dorm wouldn't see it as strange that they would constantly sneak out. I'm positive they snuck out more than once a month because they got to know the school so well, and that definitely would not be during Remus's transformation.


It is possible that Remus snuck out with his 3 animal friends at times, lol. But he did say that they figured out all of the strange tunnels in and out of the castle during his transformations - although you are correct; that would be a little odd because why would they go into them? I think you are right they snuck around a lot more. Also there are other passages in the castle that don't lead outside, so they likely checked those out too. Those kids had a lot of talent to create such a map; it told you who was everywhere and even moving around, that is just incredible. I'd say it was as incredible as becoming animagi.

It is possible that Remus snuck out with his 3 animal friends at times, lol. But he did say that they figured out all of the strange tunnels in and out of the castle during his transformations - although you are correct; that would be a little odd because why would they go into them? I think you are right they snuck around a lot more. Also there are other passages in the castle that don't lead outside, so they likely checked those out too. Those kids had a lot of talent to create such a map; it told you who was everywhere and even moving around, that is just incredible. I'd say it was as incredible as becoming animagi.

That is a good point. I think the four of them probably did sneak around the interior of the castle - and Dumbledore did tell Harry that James used his cloak to sneak into the kitchens to get food. But I think their exploration of the grounds and Hogsmeade occurred solely during the time of the full moon. Lupin was not an animagus so it would have been a lot more difficult for them to roam around the grounds or Hogsmeade when he was human.

I wonder about some of those tunnels though - particularly the one with the statue of the witch in front of it. You had to use a spell to open it. I wonder if maybe an older student might have shown them things like that. How would they have discovered that one on their own?

They were extraordinarily talented though. From what we were shown, the three of them were the most accomplished students Hogwarts had ever seen. Hermione was highly intelligent, but she wasn't able to do things like that. And the twins - for all their resourcefulness - discovered the grounds and tunnels through the map the Marauders invented. I always felt it would have been good for Jo to show Harry and his friends having that kind of skill - particularly after they found out about the Marauders and what they were able to accomplish. It always surprised me that Harry and his friends never even attempted to do things like that.

That is a good point. I think the four of them probably did sneak around the interior of the castle - and Dumbledore did tell Harry that James used his cloak to sneak into the kitchens to get food. But I think their exploration of the grounds and Hogsmeade occurred solely during the time of the full moon. Lupin was not an animagus so it would have been a lot more difficult for them to roam around the grounds or Hogsmeade when he was human.

I wonder about some of those tunnels though - particularly the one with the statue of the witch in front of it. You had to use a spell to open it. I wonder if maybe an older student might have shown them things like that. How would they have discovered that one on their own?

They were extraordinarily talented though. From what we were shown, the three of them were the most accomplished students Hogwarts had ever seen. Hermione was highly intelligent, but she wasn't able to do things like that. And the twins - for all their resourcefulness - discovered the grounds and tunnels through the map the Marauders invented. I always felt it would have been good for Jo to show Harry and his friends having that kind of skill - particularly after they found out about the Marauders and what they were able to accomplish. It always surprised me that Harry and his friends never even attempted to do things like that.


Well the trio already had the map, so they wouldn't need to figure things. However, they did inheret the trait of adventure - at least Harry - with his constant insistence on checking out things like the room with the 3 headed monster, the chamber, hopping down to Hagrids when he was warned to stay in the castle in POA and using polyjuice to sneak into Slytherin to dupe Malfoy and gain information. Not to mention throwing caution to the winds to sneak out of the house when the twins came in the car and then take off with the car when he and Ron missed the train, :lol:

But the Marauders were the first we heard of doing any type of adventurous stuff. It was naturally just as dangerous to tour the school as night as it would be to check out the room with the 3 headed monster - and so I think they had that same kind of curiousity going on that even danger doesn't quell. They placed themselves in danger as well by entering the forest, at least at first. The Centaurs likely recognized the 3 animagi and they were not fond of humans coming into the forest - not to mention the other magical creatures there. The Marauders could have been stampeded or over taken by the creatures, but I think their adventurous and exploratory nature was evident - they didn't go there to harm and that was likely key.

It was awesome to me that the Maruaders did this for Lupin because I am a werewolf -0 - holic and have seen likely every movie and read most literature containing even a hint of werewolf lore. In the HP series, the treatment was rare - painting a totally pleasant picture with the 3 friends protective and amiable to Remus's werewolf state. I've seen it before, but as I say, so rarely that it is always pleasurable. So I imagine them having a grand time at their adventures even though we don't hear about them. It gives a totally unique spin to the inventiveness of the story for me in that regard.

Well the trio already had the map, so they wouldn't need to figure things. However, they did inheret the trait of adventure - at least Harry - with his constant insistence on checking out things like the room with the 3 headed monster, the chamber, hopping down to Hagrids when he was warned to stay in the castle in POA and using polyjuice to sneak into Slytherin to dupe Malfoy and gain information. Not to mention throwing caution to the winds to sneak out of the house when the twins came in the car and then take off with the car when he and Ron missed the train, :lol:

But the Marauders were the first we heard of doing any type of adventurous stuff. It was naturally just as dangerous to tour the school as night as it would be to check out the room with the 3 headed monster - and so I think they had that same kind of curiousity going on that even danger doesn't quell. They placed themselves in danger as well by entering the forest, at least at first. The Centaurs likely recognized the 3 animagi and they were not fond of humans coming into the forest - not to mention the other magical creatures there. The Marauders could have been stampeded or over taken by the creatures, but I think their adventurous and exploratory nature was evident - they didn't go there to harm and that was likely key.

It was awesome to me that the Maruaders did this for Lupin because I am a werewolf -0 - holic and have seen likely every movie and read most literature containing even a hint of werewolf lore. In the HP series, the treatment was rare - painting a totally pleasant picture with the 3 friends protective and amiable to Remus's werewolf state. I've seen it before, but as I say, so rarely that it is always pleasurable. So I imagine them having a grand time at their adventures even though we don't hear about them. It gives a totally unique spin to the inventiveness of the story for me in that regard.

Oh, I agree about the thirst for adventure and courage - Harry and his friends definitely had those qualities in common with the Marauders. :agree: I was talking more along the lines of creating magical objects or inventing spells - that kind of thing. After they found out about how the Marauders created the map, I kept hoping that they would ask Sirius or Lupin to teach them - or at least explain the process. Harry's education just seemed to be sorely lacking in a lot of ways. It never really surprised me that Hermione never thought of things like that - she leaned more towards book smarts and didn't really think outside the box - but Harry and Ron always struck me as more creative and I figured they would at least attempt something like that at some point.

And I definitely agree about Lupin. One of the things that makes me love the Marauders most is just how far they were willing to go to help their friend. It was one thing that they accepted his situation and didn't abandon him because of it - that alone was just wonderful. But it adds a whole new level when they became animagi so they could keep him company during his transformation. That was well over and above the requirements of friendship. That just warms my heart. :love:

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior? I would say that Remus was the reasonable thinker, and was the one that was like the sounding board for the group. He was probably the one that made attempts at keeping the other two in some type of control, as much of control as he could. Peter was definately the follower, and the odd man out. He was in awe of the other three, and probably felt envious of them.
Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous? Most definately it started out as adventurous, but in the end, I really think that as their friendship matured it did turn into nobility. I really think that James and Sirius were very committed to their friends, even Peter, and very loyal and true. That is what made Peter's betrayal even worse for Sirius, because he was a very loyal and true friend, and to betray that was the worst thing that one of the friends could do.
What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily? Not really sure if obsession would be a good word for how James felt about Lily, but I really think that the other marauders were in favor of their relationship.
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders? With her personality I completely see her fitting right in with the group, and becoming like a fifth marauder.
James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision? I would say that they were completely understanding, as Sirius was best man, it would be a natural choice that he would be godfather. I would think that Remus would have issues about being the Godfather since he was a were-wolf, and Peter not being as close a friend as Sirius would know he would not be chosen.
Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance? I think that Peter was more afraid of LV then anything, and due to his weakness of fear he betrayed his friends. I think Lily would have the most influence on them, if they were to ever forgive Peter. I also think that of the marauders, Remus would be the most forgiving.
Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start? I definatley see that for James, Sirius, and Remus, joining the order was loyalty and not peer association. They were completely against the dark arts, and the three of them joining was a no brainer. As for Peter, he joined only to be a double agent, he did not have loyalty to anyone, only fear of LV, and that is what drove his decision making. As for Snape, there was just personal hatred toward Snape for James and Sirius, and I really feel that the fact that Lily and Snape had a friendship had a lot to do with Snape being singled out by James. I don't see them having issues with other students, since Peter was part of the group, I don't see them picking on someone just for the sack of it.
How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins? I would say that the humor for the James and Sirius was different then the humor of the twins. Although, it was similar in some ways, the relationship between the twins and the one between James and Sirius was different. Although, I do see James and Sirius being just as funny.
Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly? I would say that they were portrayed as the typical school pranksters, and the ones who would go against the grain. I don't think DH portrayed them in an unfavourable light, and they were shown as very strong wizards, and important members of the order.
Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits? I like Remus that best, as he was the voice of reason, patient, and caring. I think he was a very strong and gifted wizard, and a strong leader. It was hard to read that he had died in battle. I do feel that the other marauders did view him as a strong voice of reason, and did respect that he was a talented and gifted wizard.

Re-Introducing Snape (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=112996)

According to the TLC report of the interview that took place this evening:
Information on the original Order members was also revealed during tonight's event. Jo related the fact that Remus Lupin was unemployable because he was a werewolf before book three and upon his graduation from Hogwarts along with James and Lily, was supported by James using their own money. In addition to this she shed more light on the early days of the Order, saying James, Sirius, Remus and Lily were full time Order members. "Full Time Fighters," as Jo put it.

Full time fighters? I'm actually not surprised. I always imagined them in intense duels with DEs. I wonder what Peter was doing in the meantime. I would've thought that might be a hint that Remus was truly on the Order's side, but I guess it was difficult to trust people back then. :(

Wow, two people actually like Peter! I've never heard of anyone liking him before. I wonder why he appeals to fans. :)

Full time fighters? I'm actually not surprised. I always imagined them in intense duels with DEs. I wonder what Peter was doing in the meantime. I would've thought that might be a hint that Remus was truly on the Order's side, but I guess it was difficult to trust people back then. :(

I'm not surprised either, and I'm glad! It sounds fitting for all of their characters. They weren't the type to stand on the sidelines, they were all the type to charge ahead and be the first to fight. Another reason why I love the Marauders (and Lily) so much.

I'm also really glad to hear that when Remus couldn't get a job, James supported him. That made me smile. He took in Sirius, and supported Remus... they were such a nice group of friends, I have to say. :)

I'm also really glad to hear that when Remus couldn't get a job, James supported him. That made me smile. He took in Sirius, and supported Remus... they were such a nice group of friends, I have to say. :)

When I read about what James did for Remus, I let out a really loud fangirl squeal. :p James seemed so loyal to his friends. He let Sirius stay with him when he ran away and he gave Remus money when he couldn't get a job!

The Marauders seem to be an intensely loyal group. That's probably why I loved them as characters in the first place. Especially when Sirius said, "You should have died! Died rather than betray your friends, as we would have done for you!"

I'm not surprised either, and I'm glad! It sounds fitting for all of their characters. They weren't the type to stand on the sidelines, they were all the type to charge ahead and be the first to fight. Another reason why I love the Marauders (and Lily) so much.
I agree! I am really happy. This proves that they were truly dedicated to the cause and everything else was put on the back burner, until they could find a way to bring Voldy down.

When I read about what James did for Remus, I let out a really loud fangirl squeal. James seemed so loyal to his friends. He let Sirius stay with him when he ran away and he gave Remus money when he couldn't get a job!
:agree: I think this was one of James' best attributes. He cared so much for his friends. I see him as the heart of the Marauders as a whole.

Especially when Sirius said, "You should have died! Died rather than betray your friends, as we would have done for you!"
Sorry but now it is my turn to let out a fangirl squeal! :drool:

Information on the original Order members was also revealed during tonight's event. Jo related the fact that Remus Lupin, prior to the third book, was unemployable because he was a werewolf and upon his graduation from Hogwarts along with James and Lily, was supported by James using their own money. In addition to this she shed more light on the early days of the Order, saying James, Sirius, Remus and Lily were full time Order members. "Full Time Fighters," as Jo put it.
I had suspected that James, Lily and Sirius were full time Order members. I just don't know why she kept it a secret. We knew that they defied Voldemort three times. So, finding out that they were working full time for the Order is understandable.

I was surprised about James supporting Remus, though. I figured that he had trouble getting a job. I guess James was a very loyal friend.

When I read about what James did for Remus, I let out a really loud fangirl squeal. :p James seemed so loyal to his friends. He let Sirius stay with him when he ran away and he gave Remus money when he couldn't get a job!

The Marauders seem to be an intensely loyal group. That's probably why I loved them as characters in the first place. Especially when Sirius said, "You should have died! Died rather than betray your friends, as we would have done for you!"

Agreed! The Marauders were such an interesting and loyal group of friends. I really wish all of them hadn't died-except Peter.

I'm glad to hear that James went on supporting his friend after school but I'm confused as to why Remus could not get any job. Him being a werewolf was a secret till PoA, so why could he not get a job anywhere in Britain? It is not as if WEREWOLF was written on his forehead. :lol:

I'm glad to hear that James went on supporting his friend after school but I'm confused as to why Remus could not get any job. Him being a werewolf was a secret till PoA, so why could he not get a job anywhere in Britain? It is not as if WEREWOLF was written on his forehead. :lol:

I had always wondered that same thing. Only conclusion I have came to was that he wouldn't let himself get a job, rather than no one would hire him.

I had always wondered that same thing. Only conclusion I have came to was that he wouldn't let himself get a job, rather than no one would hire him.

This would seriously disappoint me though. The Marauders were like brothers and I admire that they cared so much for each other but if Remus rather lived off James money than allowing himself to accept a job...well. :no:

I'm glad to hear that James went on supporting his friend after school but I'm confused as to why Remus could not get any job. Him being a werewolf was a secret till PoA, so why could he not get a job anywhere in Britain? It is not as if WEREWOLF was written on his forehead. :lol:

Well imo Snape likely told Voldemort about Remus to curry his favour. The Order member who was also a werewolf might be useful information for Voldemort with respect to strategy and ensuring the safety of his own troops. From there Voldy would tell his minions and the word would spread the news around. Peter likely would have told Voldemort also, but that would have only been a year prior to the Potters death, not before that, so Remus would have been able to work right after Hogwarts. I don't think at that point Peter would have told anyone - but it is also a possibility. If neither of those ideas are the case, then it is possible that Remus initially did find employ and his employer figured it out and spread the news around locally.

Also, JKR said they were all working full time for the Order which means that any work Remus found he would want to be local so he could continue working with the Order. Thus, if news got around the local area, that would be enough to bar his employment - and any of the ways I suggested for the word getting around would keep it locally based I'd imagine. So Remus would still need the support of his friends to live on a daily basis. Remus didn't appear to take kindly to charity (his clothes remained battered, etc), but he would understand that pride in that regard was not worth dying for and allow James to help him. Sirius may have done little things as well as he was also rich.

That is supported by Remus' life during the 14 or so years after the Potter's death when Remus was on his own financially. He was still poor, but not dead so he obviously found some work and it appears as a professor considering his battered briefcase "Remus Lupin, Professor". So I believe that he traveled from place to place, working until it was discovered he was a werewolf and took whatever job he could find. His teaching positions would remain at the entry level because each would be at a new place, so while he could survive, he'd never grow rich.

That would also explain how he came to know a bit about the dark creatures that he talked about in DADA class and where they were primarily located - because he'd traveled around - even outside of England to find work (because during 14 years he may have exhausted that land) and seen them himself and perhaps had to deal with them living in poor conditions on the outskirts of town and venturing into local forests during transformation etc.

This would seriously disappoint me though. The Marauders were like brothers and I admire that they cared so much for each other but if Remus rather lived off James money than allowing himself to accept a job...well. :no:I may misunderstood it, but I thought James only paid for all because this allowed them all to become full-time members of the Order. One can't care for usual income - maybe especially as werewolf - while fighting against Voldemort and the Death Eaters. So this would make sense for me and actually don't sit as uncomfortable with me as any other model. It was said the marauders seemed to be extremly loyal, what I agree with. We're not talking about many years here.

Maybe Lupin just really couldn't get a paid job and James and Lily wanted to help him out, he probably would have refused but they would have insisted. Of course all of them being full time Order member would have made other jobs impossible anyway. But I also think Lupin wouldn't have gotten a paid job easily at all. Not that it was known that he was a werewolf but the symptoms would have caused him trouble.

Information on the original Order members was also revealed during tonight's event. Jo related the fact that Remus Lupin, prior to the third book, was unemployable because he was a werewolf and upon his graduation from Hogwarts along with James and Lily, was supported by James using their own money. In addition to this she shed more light on the early days of the Order, saying James, Sirius, Remus and Lily were full time Order members. "Full Time Fighters," as Jo put it.
I had suspected that James, Lily and Sirius were full time Order members. I just don't know why she kept it a secret. We knew that they defied Voldemort three times. So, finding out that they were working full time for the Order is understandable.

I was surprised about James supporting Remus, though. I figured that he had trouble getting a job. I guess James was a very loyal friend.What did Sirius do for money? I am of course assuming that being a full-time fighter they don't get paid, and Sirius had been emancipated from his family from a young age. So did James support them all?

What did Sirius do for money? I am of course assuming that being a full-time fighter they don't get paid, and Sirius had been emancipated from his family from a young age. So did James support them all?

His uncle Alphard left him a large amount of gold, according to Sirius in OotP.

His uncle Alphard left him a large amount of gold, according to Sirius in OotP.Oh yeah, very good I completly forgot that.

1) How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I think that James and Sirus were very good at including Remus but not particuarly with Peter. I think they just let Peter hang around with them because he wouldn't go away lol. I suspect that there were occasions when they felt left out (particuarly Peter), but I think that James and Sirius were overall very good friends to them.

2) Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I don't think they suspected Peter because they didn't think him capable of much.

3) James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Both. I think it was something that really helped them to connect and become even closer as friends, and James and Sirius thrived for that sense of adventure anyway.

4) What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
It was probably something they enjoyed teasing him about, but other than that they didn't care.

5) How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I really don't think she changed much except maybe helped them be a little nicer to Peter.

6) James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I think that considering how long they had known each other, they were very understanding about this. They knew that James and Sirius were closer to each other than they were to the other two, and they accepted this.

7) Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think he was happy about this in the end, but I don't think his friends would have forgiven him.

8) Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I think James and Sirius influenced Peter's decion but not Remus'. Remus is one of those people who seems to be very independant when it comes to making decisions like that, and Peter definately is not.

9) The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
I definately think that their relationship with Snape would have been different had he been in Gryffindor with them, mostly because Snape probably wouldn't have gotten involved with the people in the "Future Death Eaters Club" or whatever they called themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if the Marauders antagonized the others involved in the Dark Arts, but they focused on Snape because they probably had some inkling as to his friendship with Lily and James was jealous about it.

10) How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think they were on an equal level with the twins.

11) Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
No, my mind was never changed about the Marauders, the only thing that changed was my understanding of their dealings with Snape.

12) Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
REMUS! I think he was probably the kindest, most level-headed one of the group, and I definately think that the others appreciated this because he sort of made sure they didn't do anything that would get them expelled. I also like how Jo makes his personality the exact opposite of what you'd expect from a werewolf.

His uncle Alphard left him a large amount of gold, according to Sirius in OotP.

I think something got lost in the translation of JKR's last interview. She started off speaking about Remus, then said the other three were full time members of the Order. yet we know Remus too was in the Order (he was in the photograph Moody showed Harry in OOTP). Then she said James could support Sirius, himself and Lily - but prior to that, they reported her as saying he supported Remus which I think they thought she meant because she had been speaking of him. So I think it was a slip on her part and she meant James supported Remus and Lily and himself. Sirius had gold from his uncle - enough to buy a place, his motorbike, etc., so I doubt he was in need of support.

I think something got lost in the translation of JKR's last interview. She started off speaking about Remus, then said the other three were full time members of the Order. yet we know Remus too was in the Order (he was in the photograph Moody showed Harry in OOTP). Then she said James could support Sirius, himself and Lily - but prior to that, they reported her as saying he supported Remus which I think they thought she meant because she had been speaking of him. So I think it was a slip on her part and she meant James supported Remus and Lily and himself. Sirius had gold from his uncle - enough to buy a place, his motorbike, etc., so I doubt he was in need of support.

I agree, I think JKR made a mistake. Why would Sirius need to be supported? He had plenty of money from his Uncle Alphard. Enough, actually, to buy Harry a Firebolt later on.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior? Peter seemed to me like the type to be jealous. Remus probably understood it, as he is that kind of guy, the understanding.
Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all? Probably because of his werewolf-ness. Don't flame me for saying that the other three were probably still a bit worried about his monthly wolf adventures, and most of the werewolves were already Moldy Voldy's, so they assumed that he could go next.
James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous? Both. They were doing a very, very noble deed by doing this to help their friend. But James and Sirius's adventure loving probably helped out with this plan as well.
What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily? They were probably supportive.
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders? I really dunno. I never really thought about it.
James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision? Again, Remus probably understood this decision, as James and Sirius were like brothers. But, Peter may have felt excluded.
Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance? He probably regretted it from the moment he sold out Lily and James. Also, when he was Babymort's caretaker, I bet that he was feeling some dislike for his newfound job.
Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow? It was probably a joint decision for the three good guys, but Peter may have been a little reluctant.
The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start? It would not have been different. They hated the Dark Arts and those who practiced them.
How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins? I see it as funny, but some people may not.....
Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly? Since we saw things from Snape's point of view, I think that Snape only showed the memories where they were mistreating him, while leaving out the parts where he mistreated them.
Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits? My favourite is Remus. I loved his sense of understanding. I believe that the others probably appreciated it.

It dawned on me while re-reading The Forest Again that Harry recalled James, Lily, Sirius and Remus and they represent the new Marauders with Lily replacing Peter - but still four. I haven't time to go into it, but there are historical (fiction and real) groups of four that are so similar to this group in individual and group characteristics, it made me wonder if that was what JKR was intimating when she put them together. A one for all and all for one - four-n-three-n-two-ne'er one type of deal. :lol:. Okay, if a person hasn't read about those old popular groups of four that likely made no sense, but anyway, if you have it is kind of a cool connection.

It dawned on me while re-reading The Forest Again that Harry recalled James, Lily, Sirius and Remus and they represent the new Marauders with Lily replacing Peter - but still four. I haven't time to go into it, but there are historical (fiction and real) groups of four that are so similar to this group in individual and group characteristics, it made me wonder if that was what JKR was intimating when she put them together. A one for all and all for one - four-n-three-n-two-ne'er one type of deal. :lol:. Okay, if a person hasn't read about those old popular groups of four that likely made no sense, but anyway, if you have it is kind of a cool connection.

I thought of it as five, with Harry being the fifth Marauder and the embodiment of the others.

Recently, I did a fun law essay on the culpability of Star Trek captains, wherein the Romulus/Remus phenomenon was brought to fore once again.

It left me thinking about the names that JKR selected for the Maruaders. Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky; Remus listed among mythical gods (in addition to the werewolf connection with Romulus); James and Peter, both the names of Saints. And then ironically the greatest pranksters Hogwarts had ever seen :lol:.

But it did rather foreshadow and hindshadow their ultimate destination: the afterworld.

Now that JKR has made it clear that Peter was not magically forced by the debt he owed Harry to act, it is evident that the resistance on his part was his own - the reason he was ultimately killed. He was a hanger on in some respects and then traitor, but there was evidently more to it than all of that within the framework of the friendship forged between the Marauders.

Remus and Sirius' willingness to kill Peter - a assumption of course as we have no idea if at the last moment they would not have been able to do it (much like Harry who took aim and was on the brink of seriously killing Sirius) - but nonetheless, it does show they at least considered it as a grave dishonor to the four-way friendship they had established.

In any case, I think within the names of the four Maruaders there is a theme of honor, loyalty and heightened ideals that JKR expressed by life's end for all of them. In the course of their friendship there was distrust, betrayal, etc., but that is not unnatural (I don't trust my best buddie to run to the market and back...he is always getting distracted - or myself to study diligently as I keep finding excuses to procrastinate, like writing this :lol:.) Imo, the group was a example of friendship that, in the end, is eternal.

I know JKR is very into naming and it does not surprise me that she selected these names that fit not only each character, but the ideology she had behind the group as well imo.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
It seemed to me that James and Sirius became friends very early on, on the train ride to Hogwarts, so it is likely that they were already kind of close when they invited Remus and Peter into their group, once all the boys had been sorted into Gryffindor and were likely sharing a dorm together. I doubt that Remus and Peter were jealous or felt left out- both were probably just grateful and glad to make friends, especially Remus, who was afriad of being an outcast because of his condition, and while James and Sirius seem to have a closer friendship, it sounds like most of their Marauder adventures were as a group and no one was really left out- all of their names are written on the map, and they became animaguses together.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I am not sure. It sounds as if Dumbledore had a talk with James and Lily and suggested that someone close to them had been keeping tabs on them for the Dark Lord, and Sirius thought it was more likely to be Remus than Peter. I am sure Peter vouched for himself, and he obviously acted the part of a trustworthy friend very convincingly, or else James and Sirius would not have made him secret keeper, but I don't think we have been given enough information in the books to determine why Sirius thought that Remus had betrayed the Potters.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
It was immensely noble and adventurous, both of which describe the Marauders as a gang. James, Sirius, and Peter were incredibly dedicated as friends to spend three years of their lives working to become animaguses for their friend- IMO, if they had simply been seeking an adreneline rush for their own sakes, they would not have worked so diligently and been so selfless as to risk time in Azkaban for the sake of their friend. That said, it was also a very adventurous task, and there is nothing wrong with that!:D The Marauders were incredibly adventurous and daring- they really made the most of their time at Hogwarts together.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
IMO, "obsession" is too strong a word here. James had a crush on her, showed off for her, and asked her out, but I do not see any evidence in canon to suggest that he was obsessed with her, that he followed her every move, or that his infatuation with her was in any way over-the-top or unhealthy. That said, I think Sirius probably found his quest for Lily amusing and supported him when he dated and married her- it seemed that Sirius and Lily were good friends and liked one another. I do think that Remus may have been secretly jealous- I thought Jo mentioned that he himself was fond of Lily but did not try to compete with James, probably because he felt inferior to him. Outwardly, though, I think he supported them- he was a good-natured friend who wouldn't allow his own jealousy to manifest itself into nasty behavior toward the couple.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I think she helped James mature; he realized that he could not win her heart if he continued to bully others for fun, and perhaps this influence spread to the other Marauders as well. I think she would have fit in well with them- she seems like a girl with a sense of humor and a bit of disregard for rules herself;)

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
James and Sirius were practically brothers; I can't imagine that Remus or Peter would have expected James to choose anyone else than Sirius; I think they understood that James and Lily would want Sirius to be the guradian to their child.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I do not think that Remus and Sirius ever forgave him for this decison- they were ready to kill him in PoA for what he did, which included landing Sirius in Azkaban for twelve years for a crime that he did not committ. James, on the other hand, seems to have a bigger heart; according to Dumbledore, he would have saved Peter in Harry's place. I don't think that Peter was ever happy with his decision- all we see in the books is his misery as a Death Eater; he loses his hand, is pushed around by Snape and Lucius, and dies at his own hand, in the debt of Harry Potter. I think he was just a person who was motivated by a desire for power, as Sirius said, he wanted to join "the biggest bully" around, and his loyalty to himself rather than to others eventually led him to a sticky end.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
I think Peter may have been motivated by peer pressure, because he did not have moral conviction, but I think James, Sirius, and Remus made the decision to fight together, because they are all brave men who truly opposed the Dark Arts and were loyal to Dumbledore.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
I think the relationship with Snape and the Marauders was entirely mutual: Gryffindor vs. Slytherin, they differend in core beliefs about the Dark Arts, and I do think that they picked on Snape and others because of their infatuation with the Dark Arts, which James and Sirius hated. If Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor, I think it is possible that they might have mended their early disagreements and become friends, because I don't think that a rivalry over Lily, a girl would have started between eleven year old boys, and if Snape had been away from Slytherin, and the Dark Arts, James and Sirius could have come to accept him; they weren't the types to judge on appearance and social class. Hmm...Snape as a Marauder...I wonder what his animagus would have been?

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think James and Sirius were alot like the twins! They were popular, funny pranksters who made the most out of life and brought laughter to others. They were equals, and a "double act," according to Rosmerta and McGonagall, and both very talented troublemakers. They were also as close as brothers, just like the twins, though perhaps they had more of a bullying streak than Fred and George, who rarely turned nasty.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
DH didn't change my mind on them at all, and I though they came out quite favorably; the loving scene in the forest was so touching and overwhelming- Remus, Sirius, and James all died fighting for those that they loved, and I can only admire them for that. As for Peter, by the end of the book, he was still my least favorite character; DH did not redeem him in my eyes, his death by suffocation, IMO, did not make up for the family he destroyed.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Sirius!:love:
I absolutely love him! He was a courageous, loyal, spirited, brilliant, clever, mischievious, funny, dangerous, reckless, brash, and sexy rebel who fought and died for those he loved. I miss you Padfoot!

-LilyPod

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I'm not sure that it had a direct influence on either Remus or Peter. All of them seemed to be a good friend to Remus. Peter's problem, I think, is that he never felt as though he fit in anywhere and the Marauders was the closest he had to real friends.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I think Remus was suspect because everyone underestimated Peter's motivations and his ability to change allegiances.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
I think a bit of both. Sirius & James both seemed like risk-takers -- as Sirius told Harry, the risk would have been what made it fun for James. Peter likely just went along.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
I don't think James was obsessed with Lily, it just seemed like normal teenage behavior to me. And I don't think Lily changed the dynamics of the Marauders, as she & James didn't start dating until the end of their time at Hogwarts.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think Peter thought much about his decision, as he saw it as one of survival. He did whatever he needed to do to survive. And no, I don't think his friends would have forgiven him, since Sirius & Remus were ready to kill him in PoA.

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor?
Not if Snape hadn't changed who he would become. He was fascinated with the Dark Arts, and we're told by Remus that James hated the Dark Arts. I think that Snape would have gravitated to the DE group regardless.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
I think the Weasley twins were much, much funnier (at least from what we know).

Interesting post above, wicked!

This is my own take on The Marauders and Naming

Sirius Black: I think this one is obvious as well. "Sirius" is the brightest star in the sky, just as Sirius, as Jo has stated, was the wildest, most dangerous Marauder. :drool: Also, "Sirius" is the dog star, which is an obvious reference to his animagus form. "Black" too is indicative of death, just as his animagus is often mistaken for the Grim. I think this name is perfect for the character we have.

Remus Lupin: Again, this one is very well done, IMO. There is the connection to Remus and Romulus, who were raised by wolves, and the connection to "lupus" which I believe is a Latin word for wolf.

Peter Pettigrew I found this:


Pettigrew - Pettigrew could be interpreted two ways: "petty-grew" meaning he grew into a petty (narrow-minded) person or "pet-I-grew" foreshadowing the incident where Peter grew out of his rat form and back into a man in the Shrieking Shack. Also, from the French "petit gros" or "little, fat person."

"Peter" means "rock" and is often associated with the loyal apostle Peter, who denies Christ in the Bible before his death, but is still considered by many theologians to be the founder of Christianity. I am not sure why Wormtail was given a name that means "Rock" when he was the betrayer who was not to be trusted. :hmm:

James Potter: This one I have a bit of an issue with, because I don't care for the way James as a "supplanter" (to take the place of something through underhanded tactics) can be applied to the text, especially where Snape is concerned. My personal theory is that JKR chose "James" because of it's common usage in the royal families of England and Scotland. James himself was something of nobility- being very rich and popular, and he was a noble person, which is signified by his stag animagus form- Stags are noble creatures, and also the symbol of nobility, and I think that stags are commonly used on crests and such.

But maybe we can't put too much stock in name meanings. After all, "Fred" means "peacekeeper". :lol:

-LilyPod

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I imagine that Peter forever felt the odd one out. As for Remus, the shy loner, I don't know. I don't get the impression that he was ever jealous of the closeness between James and Sirius.

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

I don't know canon well enough to discuss this point. :)


James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Both. For James and Sirius, it was a conscious decision to identify with Remus the outcast werewolf and express solidarity with him. It was also dangerous and foolhardy. :p As for Peter, I guess he just tagged along with it all, as always.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?

Dunno, but I wouldn't call it an obsession. It just seems like a normal teenage crush.

How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

Can't comment. I have no idea.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I can't think of anything in canon to reference this, sorry.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I doubt he was happy, he seems to be a scared, miserable little man. And no, I don't think they would have forgiven him. Remus and Sirius wanted to kill him , in PoA, and I don't blame them.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

They all seemed to establish friendships from a very early stage. I don't think it was a formal thing, their gang of four, was it?

The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

It is my opinion that things would have been very different if Snape been sorted into Gryffindor. :cool: James might even have taken him under his wing, as he did Remus. Since there is no record in the text of the Marauders harassing other Slytherins who were into the Dark Arts, I can only interpret the hostility between them and Snape as an intensely personal thing.


How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

I'm not overly fond of pranksters. :) Shy girls like me tended to avoid them. I don't find the twins particularly amusing: OK, some of their antics are but you can have too much of a good thing. The Marauders strike me as living rather more dangerously than the twins ever do. I don't regard that as a bad thing in itself, but I do intensely dislike the bullying streak in James and Sirius ... although I don't think either of them grew up to be bad people, far from it.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

DH didn't change my opinion of the Marauders. I already thought of them as a bunch of high-spirited lads who took many risks and who exhibited a mixture of noble impulses and sometimes less noble ones.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

It used to be Remus. I adored him in PoA. Such an excellent, kind teacher, and so lovely with Harry. However, I was angry with him in DH for wanting to abandon his family, but he made up for it later, with his defence of Harry on Potterwatch.

Sirius is a reckless charmer, and his dark streak makes him all the more tragic.

Sirius Black: I think this one is obvious as well. "Sirius" is the brightest star in the sky, just as Sirius, as Jo has stated, was the wildest, most dangerous Marauder. :drool:

Haha, this made me laugh. Siriusly, it's always the wild ones that get the girls. ;)

Some day I'll get shot for using that pun too many times.


Also, "Sirius" is the dog star, which is an obvious reference to his animagus form. "Black" too is indicative of death, just as his animagus is often mistaken for the Grim. I think this name is perfect for the character we have.

At a convention, I attented an interesting lecture about Sirius and the symbolism of his name and animagus. One of the first points the speaker raised was that the colour black is often tied to death. So Sirius symbolizes death, but also the victory over death. Another thing to note is that almost anywhere you look, dogs are associated with death as well (for example, Cerberus, the three-headed dog, guards the way to the underworld). Not to mention, the grim - the death omen is in the shape of a large, black dog. Then he goes on to say that dogs are more or less symbolic of the passage to death instead of death itself.

This I find interesting, considering the stag symbolises that as well - the passage to death. The more I think about it, the more I find connections to The Forest Again, where both Sirius and James, the dog and the stag, were helping Harry (leading him, per se) in the passage to death. Although she isn't a Marauder, Lily is quite connected with death as well - lilies can symbolise purity and beauty, but they're also incredibly common at funerals due to the fact that they also symbolise death. So three of the four characters that Harry brings back from death are connected to death symbolically; considering Remus wasn't originally intended to die, it makes sense that he's the only one not quite so connected to death (though I'm not too sure, I'd have to check up on that a bit).


James Potter: This one I have a bit of an issue with, because I don't care for the way James as a "supplanter" (to take the place of something through underhanded tactics) can be applied to the text, especially where Snape is concerned. My personal theory is that JKR chose "James" because of it's common usage in the royal families of England and Scotland. James himself was something of nobility- being very rich and popular, and he was a noble person, which is signified by his stag animagus form- Stags are noble creatures, and also the symbol of nobility, and I think that stags are commonly used on crests and such.

But maybe we can't put too much stock in name meanings. After all, "Fred" means "peacekeeper". :lol:

-LilyPod

I think you're right about the royalty thing. James was a direct descendant of the Peverell brothers, and I personally got a "royal" vibe from that family - what with the passing down of the cloak (kind of like passing down the crown down the bloodline) and the fact that they were ridiculously rich. I could just imagine James's middle name being something like William, or Harold, or Henry, or Edward, to go with the royal names (though I personally pretend it's Matthew, because my favourite singer is called Matthew James Bellamy, so it's just switched... I'm a loser). Funny enough, Harry is another name like that (coming from Harold/Henry, tells me babynames.com), so that fits. Like father like son.

I highly doubt Jo was trying to point out something with the meaning of the name James, though. I mean, Hermione supposedly means "pillar queen", and George means "farmer"... sometimes, she might have just been picking names because she liked them? ;)

Haha, this made me laugh. Siriusly, it's always the wild ones that get the girls. ;)

Some day I'll get shot for using that pun too many times.
:rotfl: I love that pun!

At a convention, I attented an interesting lecture about Sirius and the symbolism of his name and animagus. One of the first points the speaker raised was that the colour black is often tied to death. So Sirius symbolizes death, but also the victory over death. Another thing to note is that almost anywhere you look, dogs are associated with death as well (for example, Cerberus, the three-headed dog, guards the way to the underworld). Not to mention, the grim - the death omen is in the shape of a large, black dog. Then he goes on to say that dogs are more or less symbolic of the passage to death instead of death itself.

This I find interesting, considering the stag symbolises that as well - the passage to death. The more I think about it, the more I find connections to The Forest Again, where both Sirius and James, the dog and the stag, were helping Harry (leading him, per se) in the passage to death. Although she isn't a Marauder, Lily is quite connected with death as well - lilies can symbolise purity and beauty, but they're also incredibly common at funerals due to the fact that they also symbolise death. So three of the four characters that Harry brings back from death are connected to death symbolically; considering Remus wasn't originally intended to die, it makes sense that he's the only one not quite so connected to death (though I'm not too sure, I'd have to check up on that a bit).
:wow: You got to go to a convention about Sirius? I'm jealous!

No, really, thanks for sharing all of that! Jo's symbolism blows me away sometimes. You always have great insight. :)

I think you're right about the royalty thing. James was a direct descendant of the Peverell brothers, and I personally got a "royal" vibe from that family - what with the passing down of the cloak (kind of like passing down the crown down the bloodline) and the fact that they were ridiculously rich. I could just imagine James's middle name being something like William, or Harold, or Henry, or Edward, to go with the royal names (though I personally pretend it's Matthew, because my favourite singer is called Matthew James Bellamy, so it's just switched... I'm a loser). Funny enough, Harry is another name like that (coming from Harold/Henry, tells me babynames.com), so that fits. Like father like son.
That makes sense as well, especially when you tie it to James' connection with the Peverells. He was pureblood, and of the finest blood, about as close to wizarding royalty as you could get, which I suppose contributed to his teenage cockiness. Hmmm...I like "James Edward" as his name, though perhaps it is James Charlus, if that man is his father?

With the Weasleys- Arthur, William, Charles, Frederick, George, Ronald, Percival, Ginevra (Derived from "Guinevere" I believe) Jo definitely went out of her way to choose royal/nobility names, which was ironic, considering the Weasleys were anything but wizarding royalty. And with Hermione, I believe she said that she got the name from Shakespeare and gave it to Hermione because she needed an unusual name. So, I think I'll stick with my royalty theory about James' name- I'd like to think his love for Lily was true, thank you very much! ;)

-LilyPod

The Secret-Keeper Switch

Since it was brought up in the character analysis of James, I thought I might talk about it here. :)

So, the basics. Peter was the traitor, Remus and Sirius suspected each other and James trusted everyone.

According to Remus, James would have considered it the height of dishonor to mistrust any of his friends. That's why, IMO, I think James never suspected Remus or Peter. He probably refused to believe that the people he grew to love over ten years would ever betray him. Sadly, he was mistaken.

Okay, about Sirius. I've seen people suggest that Sirius only mistrusted Remus because he was a werewolf. I, on the other hand, disagree. It would, IMO, contradict Sirius' choice to become an unregistered animagus. He became one so he could help Remus. If he didn't care then, why would that be the reason why he didn't trust Remus? It doesn't make sense to me, given Sirius' choices.

Unlike James, I think Sirius did think someone close to James was betraying him. Dumbledore thought so, and I think Sirius shared his belief. He chose Remus, IMO, not because he was a werewolf, but because he was the only likely person. According to JKR, neither James nor Sirius suspected Peter to be skilled at deception or have a lot of talent. So, he didn't assume it was Peter, probably because he didn't show much talent as an adolescent. McGonagall said he was a poor dueler, so how could Sirius think that Voldemort would want to have Peter as a Death Eater? In Sirius' view, Peter wasn't useful enough for Voldemort, therefore he wasn't one. So, out of James' closest friends, that left Remus. Remus had the qualities Peter lacked: he was intelligent, powerful, and was a talented dueler. Sirius, IMO, chose Remus because he was the most likely person to be on Voldemort's side.

Remus' reasons for suspecting Sirius is similar to Sirius' reasons for not trusting Remus. He knew that Sirius was intelligent, powerful and a great dueler - after all, he was a "full time fighter" for the Order of the Phoenix.

Peter never seemed to be the likely person to be on Voldemort's side. He was insecure, as I'm sure the others knew, but they didn't recognize what Peter did out of his insecurity. Peter was the follower and craved to be under the protection of those that he knew were the most powerful. Had the others realized this, they may have realized that Peter was not to be trusted.

IMO, the Marauders were one of the closest group of friends in the series. It's tragic how Voldemort's regime ripped apart a friendship.:sigh:

I think you're right about the royalty thing. James was a direct descendant of the Peverell brothers, and I personally got a "royal" vibe from that family - what with the passing down of the cloak (kind of like passing down the crown down the bloodline) and the fact that they were ridiculously rich. I could just imagine James's middle name being something like William, or Harold, or Henry, or Edward, to go with the royal names (though I personally pretend it's Matthew, because my favourite singer is called Matthew James Bellamy, so it's just switched... I'm a loser). Funny enough, Harry is another name like that (coming from Harold/Henry, tells me babynames.com), so that fits. Like father like son.

Great post, Ali! (Is it just me, or do you get that a lot? :lol:)

I also don't like how James' name means "supplanter." It doesn't really fit with James. I mean, he never took any person's place, as far as I can tell - including Snape's. James was Lily's husband, but Snape was her best friend.

Anyway, I agree that royalty makes sense with James' name. As you said, he was a descendant from Ignotus Peverrel, and that pretty much made him royalty. His ancestor was one of the most talented wizards, which sounds very "royal" to me. He could also be considered royal by pureblood supremacists since they thought purebloods were superior.

James was also an apostle of Jesus. I find that interesting . . . it just adds to the connection James and Christ had. His stag is the symbol of Jesus and his name is a name of an apostle of Jesus.

There are saints named James. They were like martyrs, and James was as well.

Good analysis of the split, beautifically :). I'd add that I think that Peter may have been driving the wedge between Sirius and Remus kind of subtly, too. We don't see it on page, but I could definately see Peter trying to get Sirius and Remus to distrust each other - to his (Peter's) advantage.

:wow: You got to go to a convention about Sirius? I'm jealous!

Haha, well the convention was about Harry Potter in general, but the lecture was all about Sirius and the symbolism behind his character. It amused me, 'cause he started the presentation by asking "Okay, so who here is part of the Sirius Black fan club?" *shifties*.

No, really, thanks for sharing all of that! Jo's symbolism blows me away sometimes. You always have great insight. :)

After leaving that lecture, I was just baffled by how Jo could do all that. This isn't the best place to talk about this, but there was another lecture on Alchemy and that was just way too cool, I have to say. It can't be all coincidence. Jo's a genius.


That makes sense as well, especially when you tie it to James' connection with the Peverells. He was pureblood, and of the finest blood, about as close to wizarding royalty as you could get, which I suppose contributed to his teenage cockiness. Hmmm...I like "James Edward" as his name, though perhaps it is James Charlus, if that man is his father?

With the Weasleys- Arthur, William, Charles, Frederick, George, Ronald, Percival, Ginevra (Derived from "Guinevere" I believe) Jo definitely went out of her way to choose royal/nobility names, which was ironic, considering the Weasleys were anything but wizarding royalty. And with Hermione, I believe she said that she got the name from Shakespeare and gave it to Hermione because she needed an unusual name. So, I think I'll stick with my royalty theory about James' name- I'd like to think his love for Lily was true, thank you very much! ;)

-LilyPod

I never noticed that about the Weasleys - that's really cool!

But yeah, the meaning behind James's name doesn't really bother me, considering it is one of the most popular names around (I have a habit of looking for HP names in movie credits and such, and James pops up all the time). Not to mention it's a "royal name", in a way. :)

The Secret-Keeper Switch

Since it was brought up in the character analysis of James, I thought I might talk about it here. :)

So, the basics. Peter was the traitor, Remus and Sirius suspected each other and James trusted everyone.

According to Remus, James would have considered it the height of dishonor to mistrust any of his friends. That's why, IMO, I think James never suspected Remus or Peter. He probably refused to believe that the people he grew to love over ten years would ever betray him. Sadly, he was mistaken.

Okay, about Sirius. I've seen people suggest that Sirius only mistrusted Remus because he was a werewolf. I, on the other hand, disagree. It would, IMO, contradict Sirius' choice to become an unregistered animagus. He became one so he could help Remus. If he didn't care then, why would that be the reason why he didn't trust Remus? It doesn't make sense to me, given Sirius' choices.

Unlike James, I think Sirius did think someone close to James was betraying him. Dumbledore thought so, and I think Sirius shared his belief. He chose Remus, IMO, not because he was a werewolf, but because he was the only likely person. According to JKR, neither James nor Sirius suspected Peter to be skilled at deception or have a lot of talent. So, he didn't assume it was Peter, probably because he didn't show much talent as an adolescent. McGonagall said he was a poor dueler, so how could Sirius think that Voldemort would want to have Peter as a Death Eater? In Sirius' view, Peter wasn't useful enough for Voldemort, therefore he wasn't one. So, out of James' closest friends, that left Remus. Remus had the qualities Peter lacked: he was intelligent, powerful, and was a talented dueler. Sirius, IMO, chose Remus because he was the most likely person to be on Voldemort's side.

Remus' reasons for suspecting Sirius is similar to Sirius' reasons for not trusting Remus. He knew that Sirius was intelligent, powerful and a great dueler - after all, he was a "full time fighter" for the Order of the Phoenix.

Peter never seemed to be the likely person to be on Voldemort's side. He was insecure, as I'm sure the others knew, but they didn't recognize what Peter did out of his insecurity. Peter was the follower and craved to be under the protection of those that he knew were the most powerful. Had the others realized this, they may have realized that Peter was not to be trusted.


I definitely agree. And you know, Sirius's mistrust for Remus might have fed off of Remus's mistrust for Sirius, and vice versa; they might have begun watching each other more closely to pick up signs, and that suspicious and less friendly attitude would have lead to more suspicion all around. Also, like chparadise said, Peter might have been working off that mistrust between the two friends, turning each other slowly against one another. Who knows - Peter could have been the one to start it all, by telling Sirius "Moony's been acting strange lately, have you noticed that?" and the same to Remus, just to get it kick started; I wouldn't put it past him, considering he fooled them all so well for so long and turned out to be much more talented than they thought.

IMO, the Marauders were one of the closest group of friends in the series. It's tragic how Voldemort's regime ripped apart a friendship.:sigh:

It is definitely tragic, because that's one thing Harry always stood for: trust. He wouldn't allow himself to mistrust his friends, and he was like James in that regard (as pointed out by Remus). I feel both Harry and his father were sort of the heart of their groups, keeping them together because of that unconditional trust. It's very admirable IMO, and it's just sad to think that such great trust lead to James and Lily's death...

James was also an apostle of Jesus. I find that interesting . . . it just adds to the connection James and Christ had. His stag is the symbol of Jesus and his name is a name of an apostle of Jesus.

There are saints named James. They were like martyrs, and James was as well.

Hah, that's interesting. Considering Jo said it flat out now that there are religious symbols in the books, who knows if that was intentional or not? She does appear to have put great effort in naming the majority of her characters...

This I find interesting, considering the stag symbolises that as well - the passage to death. The more I think about it, the more I find connections to The Forest Again, where both Sirius and James, the dog and the stag, were helping Harry (leading him, per se) in the passage to death. Although she isn't a Marauder, Lily is quite connected with death as well - lilies can symbolise purity and beauty, but they're also incredibly common at funerals due to the fact that they also symbolise death. So three of the four characters that Harry brings back from death are connected to death symbolically; considering Remus wasn't originally intended to die, it makes sense that he's the only one not quite so connected to death (though I'm not too sure, I'd have to check up on that a bit).
;)

Well the famous Remus (brother of Romulus) also was linked to death:

A wicked king, Amulius, fought his brother, Numitor, and sent him into exile. Amulius forced Numitor's daughter, Rhea Silvia, to become a Vestal Virgin (remain innocent). Mars, the god of war, fell in love with Rhea Silvia and they had twin sons. Amulius angered and her breaking her vow, ordered his slave to throw the two twins into the River, but the slave left the twins in their cradle to give them a chance. They floated down the river and were rescued by a she-wolf who raised them as her own. A while later, a shepherd, Faustulus found the wolf with the boys and took them home. They named the boys Romulus and Remus.

Eventually, the lads found out what had happened to their mum and killed Amulius moving into power. Then they decided to build their own city, but argued over where it should be built. In the end they built two cities. Remus teased his brother saying the walls of his city (Rome) were too low. The brothers battled and Romulus killed Remus.

So there you go, all four Marauders (including Lily) leading Harry toward his supposed death were linked to death. However, they seemed to know what was going on, so I believe they knew they were actually leading him to life.

I just posted in the Remus thread. I am copying a bit of that post here to make an observation that struck me as I was writing that.

posted by me in the Remus Luin thread
Remus fell short in my eyes only on one count. He never visited Harry for 13 years. That pulled him down in my estimation.

I can even understand the inaction during the SWM; they knew and were still friends. That was the thought that kept him quiet most times in his life IMO, when he may have wanted to intervene. Remus would and did take everything from them because they knew he was a werewolf and were stll friends with him; they did not look at him disgust or fear.

He takes even the werewolf incident without having even a fight with Sirius, let alone coming to blows with him for his part in that incident as far as we know. And that was a very, very serious incident to him IMO, one that could have had him kissed.

He could have visited Harry and even if Dumbledore forbade him for the first 10 years, he could have still come and seen Harry once Harry started Hogwarts is what I feel.

While I understand the story had to unveil that way and to keep the suspense Jo kept Remus hidden; I cannot help but feel that she did sacrifice his character a little.

This is all my opinion only firstly.

The four Marauders, Lily and Snape have formed a triangle that came to a showdown of sorts in the DH.

The three Marauders are shown firmly in the side of the Light with one friend as the traitor and betrayer.

Snape is shown to want to become a DE and he does, later on turning from the Dark to the Light.

James, Sirius and Remus are portrayed as good guys by Jo in her many interviews and talks, while she calls Snape vindictive, mean and small and says she wants to slap him.

Yet, the irony for me is that all the Marauders in canon are not shown very well, while Snape has stolen their thunder so as to speak, getting maximum screen time, footage and everything.

James, Sirius and Remus fought only for the Light and sacrificed their lives for the good of all. I am not disputing that. I am talking about personalities which Jo seems to have sacrificed in all the 4 friends in canon, while she talks of them being good outside the books, but in canon they are not shown well in the few scenes they appear in.

James -- SWM; first year on the train

Sirius -- Shack; SWM; reckless;

Remus -- Fine in School; am disregarding the SWM, but later never visits Harry nor tells him he was Harry's father's friend.

Peter -- @#@# RAT!

Snape -- He is called small, mean, vicdictive and vengeful by JO, but it is his love that is given importance in the books; not James's and Lily's. Snape's unrequited love. The things he does for that love. The sacrifices he makes for that love; and finally the death he embraces for it.

I feel that Jo has said good things about the Marauders but presented them in a bad light, and has said bad things about Snape but has made him an ultimate hero by making Harry name his son after Snape, along with the likes of James, Sirius, Lily and Albus.

Yet, the irony for me is that all the Marauders in canon are not shown very well, while Snape has stolen their thunder so as to speak, getting maximum screen time, footage and everything.

Well, yes, but he has a bigger role than the Marauders do. While the Marauders are very vital to the plot, it's Snape that makes most of the story what it is.

James, Sirius and Remus fought only for the Light and sacrificed their lives for the good of all. I am not disputing that. I am talking about personalities which Jo seems to have sacrificed in all the 4 friends in canon, while she talks of them being good outside the books, but in canon they are not shown well in the few scenes they appear in.

JKR has, from my knowledge, said that she likes Sirius and Remus. She said she didn't like Peter, and I haven't heard any comment on James. So her opinion on James is really unknown.

James -- SWM; first year on the train

But as I said millions of times, the guy changed. JKR seems to have many characters throughout the story mature and evolve into greater people, and all these scenes do is get Harry to understand that James was human.

Remus -- Fine in School; am disregarding the SWM, but later never visits Harry nor tells him he was Harry's father's friend.

Isn't it possible Dumbledore told everyone that was close to James to not visit Harry? And Remus did tell Harry he was best friends with his father in PoA.

Snape -- He is called small, mean, vicdictive and vengeful by JO, but it is his love that is given importance in the books; not James's and Lily's. Snape's unrequited love. The things he does for that love. The sacrifices he makes for that love; and finally the death he embraces for it.

While Snape's love is very important to the story, so are Lily and James'. Lily and James' love resulted in the birth of Harry. JKR even said in an interview once. . . .

Your books are about the battle between good and evil. Harry is good. But is Voldemort pure Evil? He is also a victim.
He is a victim, indeed. He is a victim, and he has made choices. He was conceived by force and under the influence of a silly infatuation, While Harry was conceived in love; I think the conditions under which you were born form an important fundament of your existence. But Voldemort chose evil. I've been trying to point that out in the books; I gave him choices.

I feel that Jo has said good things about the Marauders but presented them in a bad light, and has said bad things about Snape but has made him an ultimate hero

I always got the impression JKR made Harry the ultimate hero.

I just posted in the Remus thread. I am copying a bit of that post here to make an observation that struck me as I was writing that.

This is all my opinion only firstly.

The four Marauders, Lily and Snape have formed a triangle that came to a showdown of sorts in the DH.

The three Marauders are shown firmly in the side of the Light with one friend as the traitor and betrayer.

Snape is shown to want to become a DE and he does, later on turning from the Dark to the Light.

James, Sirius and Remus are portrayed as good guys by Jo in her many interviews and talks, while she calls Snape vindictive, mean and small and says she wants to slap him.

Yet, the irony for me is that all the Marauders in canon are not shown very well, while Snape has stolen their thunder so as to speak, getting maximum screen time, footage and everything.

James, Sirius and Remus fought only for the Light and sacrificed their lives for the good of all. I am not disputing that. I am talking about personalities which Jo seems to have sacrificed in all the 4 friends in canon, while she talks of them being good outside the books, but in canon they are not shown well in the few scenes they appear in.

James -- SWM; first year on the train

Sirius -- Shack; SWM; reckless;

Remus -- Fine in School; am disregarding the SWM, but later never visits Harry nor tells him he was Harry's father's friend.

Peter -- @#@# RAT!

Snape -- He is called small, mean, vicdictive and vengeful by JO, but it is his love that is given importance in the books; not James's and Lily's. Snape's unrequited love. The things he does for that love. The sacrifices he makes for that love; and finally the death he embraces for it.

I feel that Jo has said good things about the Marauders but presented them in a bad light, and has said bad things about Snape but has made him an ultimate hero by making Harry name his son after Snape, along with the likes of James, Sirius, Lily and Albus.

I respect your view, but I look at it this way. James loved Harry to death, it was his son and he took time out of his "great adventure" in the afterworld to watch over and be with his son in his times of need. Sirius, when he finally revealed himself to Harry, loved him to death as well and did the best he could for him under the circumstances. He made Harry very happy after his life at the Dudleys - Harry finally felt like he had family of his own. Lupin, when he finally revealed himself in the Shreiking shack, began forming a relationship with Harry and the difficult-to-get-close-to Lupin let Harry get close and ended up loving him as well, guiding him and bestowing the honor upon him of asking him to be the godfather of his precious son who meant the world to him. That is the legacy of Harry and the Marauders. Snape hated Harry and mistreated him and that is his legacy. Dumbledore loved Harry and treated him with compassion and kindness, then double crossed him in the end. Harry named his children foremost for those he loved and that included Remus who had bestowed a child figure for him early on "Teddy Remus Lupin". Then he named his 3rd son after those who he wished to honor for their assistance in vanquishing Voldemort.

But the Love, compassion, courage, strength, guidance, faith, honor, and heroism that pervaded Harry's soul was imo, his legacy from the Marauders (3). There was no doubt in his mind when he needed loyalty, trust and true friendship from someone who truly cared about him that he could find one of the three Marauders or his mum to see him through. This was made clear, imo, when he called them back in the ressurection stone scene. Many had died, but they remained in the afterworld when Harry called on those who meant the very most to him - and that, imo, was the most peaceful and blessed scene in the entire series, hands down.

KR has, from my knowledge, said that she likes Sirius and Remus. She said she didn't like Peter, and I haven't heard any comment on James. So her opinion on James is really unknown.

I agree. But I always thought she liked James. She has never put him down like she has Snape has she?

But as I said millions of times, the guy changed. JKR seems to have many characters throughout the story mature and evolve into greater people, and all these scenes do is get Harry to understand that James was human.

I am not disputing all that as I already wrote in my post. I only talked of how they were shown in the books until the end. That's all.

Isn't it possible Dumbledore told everyone that was close to James to not visit Harry? And Remus did tell Harry he was best friends with his father in PoA.

Could be while he's in Privet Drive. But once he's told about magic and has started Hogwarts? And even in POA, Remus l;ooks shaken as he sees Harry's Patronus. But does he tell him at that time, that Harry's Partronus is just like his dad's? To keep the secrecy about their friendship, I feel Jo has sacrified Remus too.

While Snape's love is very important to the story, so are Lily and James'. Lily and James' love resulted in the birth of Harry. JKR even said in an interview once. . . .

Sure! Jo has said they are soul mates actually. But again it's Snape who gets his love written in detail; not James and Lily, for all that they are soul mates IMO.

I always got the impression JKR made Harry the ultimate hero.

I agree, but for me it will be Snape along with Harry. :)

I felt it was an irony that's all. Like opposites -- good Marauders, presented not so well and bad Snape -- shown to have possessed true love and dies for that love who did not love him back!

James and Lily died on the other hand for their child; like every parent who loves their child would do! Die for their kids if it came to that IMO.

I agree. But I always thought she liked James. She has never put him down like she has Snape has she?

Maybe . . . she seems really neutral. I hear a lot of people say she loves James, but I never heard her say her opinion on him.

I am not disputing all that as I already wrote in my post. I only talked of how they were shown in the books until the end. That's all.

Well, if we are discussing on how characters are shown in the books, then Snape doesn't come out saintly either. There are numerous scenes when he bullies Harry and other students, so he isn't shown in the greatest light.

Could be while he's in Privet Drive. But once he's told about magic and has started Hogwarts? And even in POA, Remus l;ooks shaken as he sees Harry's Patronus. But does he tell him at that time, that Harry's Partronus is just like his dad's? To keep the secrecy about their friendship, I feel Jo has sacrified Remus too.

Well, I don't know about why he didn't visit Harry, but Remus might have felt that Harry was best left alone. Or Remus was busy trying to get a job, which was a major priority since he was often unemployed.

Remus didn't recognize the shape of Harry's Patronus. He only found out about the Patronus representing James when Harry told him. When Harry did, Remus confirmed that James was a stag.

Sure! Jo has said they are soul mates actually. But again it's Snape who gets his love written in detail; not James and Lily, for all that they are soul mates IMO.

Snape's love caused multiple things to happen in the plot. My point was that Lily and James' love was important, but it doesn't cause as many things as Snape's. JKR didn't show it because it wasn't as important to the plot, not that their love wasn't important.

I agree, but for me it will be Snape along with Harry. :)

It's a matter of opinion, I guess. I personally think Harry is the ultimate hero of the series. :)

I felt it was an irony that's all. Like opposites -- good Marauders, presented not so well and bad Snape -- shown to have possessed true love and dies for that love who did not love him back!

We see the good and bad in both characters. We see the behavior of James and Sirius as teenagers (which they grew out of), the recklessness of Sirius, the insecurity of Remus and the treatment of children by Snape. Each character died for the right cause. James died for Lily and Harry. Sirius died fighting the Death Eaters. Remus died fighting the Death Eaters. Snape died for the Order.

Just because one character dedicated his life to a woman doesn't mean the others deaths are insignificant. Holding onto love that is unrequited isn't, IMO, somehow "better" than mutual love or vice versa.

James and Lily died on the other hand for their child; like every parent who loves their child would do! Die for their kids if it came to that IMO.

That doesn't eliminate their sacrifice, IMO. It shows the comparison and courage they had for their son.

James -- SWM; first year on the train We know that James was an 'arrogant bullying toe-rag' when he was a teenager, but as Lupin said, he changed. There is no way that Lily would have married him if he hadn't 'deflated his head' and become a decent human being, which is something that the reader can surmise from the text; this is why JKR never really needed to show us. Aside from this, there's also the fact that he made the ultimate sacrifice for his family, which shows love, bravery etc. I agree that the only scenes we see him in are the ones in which he is at his worst, but we are repeatedly told by Hagrid and so many others what a great person he was, and this is how the audience is meant to perceive him. Plus, it's implied that Snape would do the same thing to James when he had the chance. And Harry does worse things to his rivals, what about when he used Sectumsempra on Draco? And the time he tried to use the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix? Harry makes James look like an angel.

Sirius -- Shack; SWM; reckless; This one, I do agree with. He knew full well the possible consequences of sending Snape down the tunnel of the Whomping Willow, but he still did it. James had a dislike of Snape, obviously, but Sirius was more malicious in his dislike. So many people love him despite the fact that he was a hypocrite - "If you want to judge a man’s character don’t look at how he treats his superiors or his equals. Just look at the way he treats his inferiors." How about the way he treats his inferior, Kreacher? We know James matured over the years, but despite the fact he had so many years in Azkaban in which he could reflect on his behaviour when he was younger, Sirius is still talking like this at the age of 35.

Remus -- Fine in School; am disregarding the SWM, but later never visits Harry nor tells him he was Harry's father's friend. My memory of PoA isn't really the best, but knowing his chararcter in general I tend to think Remus would have done what he thought was best for Harry until he was ready to know about their friendship. I think if he were to have visited Harry, Harry would have a lot of questions and through this, stumble upon the story of Sirius' 'betrayal'. I can understand why Lupin may not have wanted Harry to hear this until he was ready.

Peter -- @#@# RAT! :agree:

Snape -- He is called small, mean, vicdictive and vengeful by JO, He was small, mean, vindictive and vengeful in his behaviour toward Harry; in the pensieve with Dumbledore it clearly shows that he wanted to see the worst in Harry because of his old grudge. I don't see why he couldn't have been a little more impartial in his treatment of him; after all, he's Lily's son too. She wouldn't have wanted her son treated like that.

but it is his love that is given importance in the books; not James's and Lily's. Snape's unrequited love. The things he does for that love. The sacrifices he makes for that love; and finally the death he embraces for it. James sacrificed his life for Lily and Harry, which shows extreme importance. Of all the things he does for love, people never put emphasis on the fact that Snape was willing to let James and Harry die so he could be happy. James' intially unrequited love for Lily causes him to become a better person, Snape's power-hungry nature and unrequited love ultimately lead to Lily's death. Even the way he looks at her is described as greedy; hence even his love for her is described in negative terms. Anyway, I feel JKR's negative perception of him is quite justifiable.

Snape -- He is called small, mean, vicdictive and vengeful by JO, but it is his love that is given importance in the books; not James's and Lily's. Snape's unrequited love. The things he does for that love. The sacrifices he makes for that love; and finally the death he embraces for it.

I just remembered (my brain is slow today :whistle:) that Lily's love is incredibly important. Her love was shown when she sacrificed herself for Harry, and if it wasn't for that, Harry wouldn't have survived.

The Marauders and Lily's love for Harry is proven to be important for Harry in regards to his decisions. The love Harry felt for them factored into his determination to destroy Voldemort. Furthermore, the love they had for Harry in The Forest Again helped Harry walk to his death. IMO, their love was an incredibly important force in the story.

Well, if we are discussing on how characters are shown in the books, then Snape doesn't come out saintly either. There are numerous scenes when he bullies Harry and other students, so he isn't shown in the greatest light.

Yes. A lot of readers see it that way for the first 6 Books. Books 1 - 4 shows him as a Harry hater, though he is still protective towards Harry.

In all the 6 Books Dumbledore continously vouches for him on one side and on the other we see Harry's hatred. The two balance each other. We readers are in two minds IMO. One is to believe Harry and the other to believe Dumbledore as it were.

Then comes the Deathly Hallows. He is vindicated by her in 2 chapters IMO in the DH for all the negativity he suffered in the first 6 and most of the 7th IMO in Harry's eyes and Dumbledore seems to have been right about his loyalties from the begining. We also see that the small, vindictive and vengeful man is capable of love so pure. We see him work for that love for almost 18 years. 16 of them his love has been dead and will not see his change.

The Prince's Tale and the Epilogue. The former we see his love; the latter we see Harry's complete acceptance of Snape.

That doesn't eliminate their sacrifice, IMO. It shows the comparison
and courage they had for their son.

I agree. But most parents would IMO do the same for their kids. I am not taking anything away from James and Lily as I told you in my initial post. I am merely comparing the way the Marauders and Snape have been presented in the books.


While Snape is given a lot of limelight to counter his negativity, the Marauders (excepting Peter who was only a RATall the time) are not shown the same consideration is what I feel. That is why I think, IMO, that most of those who like Snape don't look favourably towards James, Sirius and Remus.

It is not IMO that they were not brave; they were. It is not that they turned their backs from the first moment to the dark arts; they did. It is not that they sacrificed their lives for their son in the case of James, Godson in the case of Sirius and did fighting for Harry in the case of Remus; they did.

But I feel and it is my opinion that their personalities suffered in canon.

Just like Slytherin House. While now we know that House too contributed; it is not there in canon where it matters the most.

We know that House had Snape who fought for the light and died for it; Regulus who had the courage to turn away from Voldemort and in the process steal a horcrux as well; Draco who could not kill Dumbledore even if it meant the death of his parents and himself; yet that House is shown only negatively in canon.

AmeliaPotter
He was small, mean, vindictive and vengeful in his behaviour toward Harry; in the pensieve with Dumbledore it clearly shows that he wanted to see the worst in Harry because of his old grudge.

Have answered it above. :)

It is not IMO that they were not brave; they were. It is not that they turned their backs from the first moment to the dark arts; they did. It is not that they sacrificed their lives for their son in the case of James, Godson in the case of Sirius and did fighting for Harry in the case of Remus; they did.

But I feel and it is my opinion that their personalities suffered in canon.

Just like Slytherin House. While now we know that House too contributed; it is not there in canon where it matters the most.

We know that House had Snape who fought for the light and died for it; Regulus who had the courage to turn away from Voldemort and in the process steal a horcrux as well; Draco who could not kill Dumbledore even if it meant the death of his parents and himself; yet that House is shown only negatively in canon.

Well the distinction is the part you left out. While the Marauders were off fighting in battles against evil, Snape and Regulus were fighting in the name of evil - killing people, torturing them, etc., and so canon calls everyone on their acts for or against the 'greater good' which is the goal of the series.

Like any other fantasy series, those who fight on the good side the entire time are praised and those who have issues have more complex reviews. Regulus was put in a negative light by his brother, Sirius, who didn't know that he had turned in the end - later he was shown to have turned. Snape was put in a negative light by the text to fool readers into thinking he had not turned. But then in DH, he was shown to have turned. But all of those who supported evil - well their personalities had to suffer in canon or what would be the distinction?

The Marauders had no 'turn' to good, because they were always good - the Knights racing in to fight against Voldemort. One of the Knights fell - Peter, became a dark Knight. Some of the evil minions fled also, Snape, Regulus and Draco. None of them became Knights, riding in the face of evil with their swords flashing in the face of Voldemort - instead they did it covertly.

I don't know why no ex-evil minion had the bravery to face Voldemort head on and fly openly in the face of evil in a big way. I agree that would have been awesome, but it simply did not occur.

But the action of the evil ones who turned good did not take away from the Knights who were fighting evil all along, like the three Marauders - they were awesome heroes from beginning to end - but that is just the way of fantasy.

The Prince's Tale and the Epilogue. The former we see his love; the latter we see Harry's complete acceptance of Snape.

Acceptance is not the same as forgiveness.

But I feel and it is my opinion that their personalities suffered in canon.

I don't understand your point. Here are the good things we hear about every Marauder (minus Peter) plus Lily.

The good

James: died for Lily and Harry, worked for the Order, never felt prejudice against Remus, never succumbed to pureblood supremacy, hated the Dark Arts, became an unregistered animagus, saved Snape's life (I am not here to discuss his intentions), rejected Voldemort before he was twenty, defied Voldemort twice more, played with Harry, changed

Sirius: rejected his family's ideals, hated the Dark Arts, fought for the Order of the Phoenix, became an unregistered animagus for Remus, was nice to house-elves in general (other than Kreacher), lived off rats for Harry, died in the Battle at the Ministry of Magic to save Harry

Remus: never felt prejudice against people based on blood status, was a member of the Order of the Phoenix, didn't really bully, fought in three battles that appear in the series, died for Harry, had empathy for others, didn't treat "half-breeds" cruelly, decided to go back to Tonks and his son

Lily: made the sacrifice that saved Harry's life, accepted Snape when she first met him regardless of his appearance, didn't tolerate bullying, rejected pureblood supremacy ideals, fought for the Order of the Phoenix, accepted James as a new person when he changed, rejected Voldemort before she was twenty, defied Voldemort twice more

And the bad:

James: bullied as a teenager (yet changed later), didn't tell Lily the truth about the hexing wars he had with Snape

Sirius: didn't listen to his own philosophy, reckless, almost got Snape killed, sometimes got confused with Harry and James

Remus: too lenient on his friends, almost left his wife and son, insecure

Lily: too stubborn and hot-headed

I probably left some off, but my point is that we don't see much about their flaws. We see plenty of their good qualities. We see Snape with flaws and Snape with good qualities. (I'm not comparing!) I don't see how the Marauders "suffered" when we are seen plenty of good things about them as well.

Sure, they didn't have the same grand transformations as Dumbledore and Snape did, but I don't get how that's somehow diminishes the things they did do. We don't even know enough about their flaws to begin with, and it isn't as if they made horribly tragic choices in their lives.

Well the distinction is the part you left out. While the Marauders were off fighting in battles against evil, Snape and Regulus were fighting in the name of evil - killing people, torturing them, etc., and so canon calls everyone on their acts for or against the 'greater good' which is the goal of the series.

I let it out because they turned against the evil they joined and fought until they died to do everything against it.

Like any other fantasy series, those who fight on the good side the entire time are praised and those who have issues have more complex reviews. Regulus was put in a negative light by his brother, Sirius, who didn't know that he had turned in the end - later he was shown to have turned. Snape was put in a negative light by the text to fool readers into thinking he had not turned. But then in DH, he was shown to have turned. But all of those who supported evil - well their personalities had to suffer in canon or what would be the distinction?

But that is what I feel that did not happen. In canon, where it matters the most, they are showed as having fought the Light. A point I agree with you. But the few incidents we are shown about them are not really where I can say they were all great persons, all of them! Their characters suffered in some way or other IMO.

Of course this is just my opinion from reading the books. While Snape who is a nasty, greasy, git is shown as completely different in 2 ways. His own character and in Harry's eyes IMO.

The Marauders had no 'turn' to good, because they were always good - the Knights racing in to fight against Voldemort. One of the Knights fell - Peter, became a dark Knight. Some of the evil minions fled also, Snape, Regulus and Draco. None of them became Knights, riding in the face of evil with their swords flashing in the face of Voldemort - instead they did it covertly.

And yet SNape is shown to be a hero and an incredible wizard, in the 7 th book IMO.

I don't know why no ex-evil minion had the bravery to face Voldemort head on and fly openly in the face of evil in a big way. I agree that would have been awesome, but it simply did not occur.

I would respectfully disagree with you. Snape faced Voldemort day in and out, cheating him to his face and feeding him false information and getting everything he could for the Order. If you would say that he did not say openly that Voldemort was his enemy and fight and die, yes, I agree. But a spy cannot do that and he fought the most dangerous war; and he would have come out in the open and fought Voldemort and the death eaters, had Harry been in danger at some point IMO. He was face to face with Voldemort and his death eaters for years and he came out victorious in the end IMO, Voldemort never finding out about his loyalties until after his death.

But the action of the evil ones who turned good did not take away from the Knights who were fighting evil all along, like the three Marauders - they were awesome heroes from beginning to end - but that is just the way of fantasy.

Yes. I agree. I never said they did not die a hero's death. They did too. Only their characters suffered IMO.

posted by beatifically
Acceptance is not the same as forgiveness

I wrote acceptance because Harry named his son after SNape. If Harry needed to forgive his actions, he would not have called his son Severus IMO.

Yes. I agree. I never said they did not die a hero's death. They did too. Only their characters suffered IMO.

Can you please clarify how they "suffered"? I wrote a long response to that, and I still don't understand. We've seen Snape suffer, Dumbledore suffer, and Draco suffer. We see good in all of them, too. We see mostly good from the Marauders and few bad ones. I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I wrote acceptance because Harry named his son after SNape. If Harry needed to forgive his actions, he would not have called his son Severus IMO.

Harry honored the choices Snape made. That doesn't mean Harry thought other actions made by Snape were acceptable. Actually, Harry (according to JKR) wouldn't go to visit Snape's portrait in the future. As far as I can tell, that means Harry understood Snape wasn't a bad person overall and made good choices, but he didn't love Snape either and wasn't willing to talk to him.

And yet SNape is shown to be a hero and an incredible wizard, in the 7 th book IMO He's undoubtedly a great, powerful wizard and has been since the first book, but I wouldn't call him a hero either. Heroism (to me) implies a bit of glamour. It's the difference between a man saving a child out of the flames (a hero) and a man saving a hundred children from starvation by organising a food convoy. Snape is tremendously effective but there is absolutely no glamour in his greasy life. His death is characteristic : He could have raised his wand, and died duelling the Dark Lord or even better killing the (second but) last Horcrux– but he died pitifully, bleeding to death. And Voldemort did not even do it himself he had his deputy. That’s not the kind of thread from which hero legends are woven.
Of course that way Snape did win the precious seconds to pass on Dumbledore’s message. Highly efficient, but not gloriously heroic, that’s Snape how I see him.
And there is Snape’s motivation, too. He did not fight against evil, not for highminded ideals, he did not care a damn for Harry, he fought as a repentance for Lily’s death. Not a bad reason but not heroic either.

I let it out because they turned against the evil they joined and fought until they died to do everything against it.

Yes that is the comparison always made in fantasy. Good verus evil and when someone evil turns good, there are always degrees. But there are always Knights who openly fight evil, they are good and it is known they are from the start to the end. That is the legacy of the 3 Marauders.

But that is what I feel that did not happen. In canon, where it matters the most, they are showed as having fought the Light. A point I agree with you. But the few incidents we are shown about them are not really where I can say they were all great persons, all of them! Their characters suffered in some way or other IMO.

That is because none of them were shown to become Knights of the Wizard World. They were evil minions who turned and became minions of the good side - as hidden as they had been as Death Eaters. So they too have a place in Potterverse - and an important one, but they will never be Knights and they cannot be written to be because they are minions. If you wish to have a Knight for a hero, then you can pick from any of the 3 Marauders - or numerous others (the trio, Neville, etc.). But evil minions and good minions are never written as Knights.

Knights, like the marauders are shown to have all types of personalities, behaviors, characteristics, etc., both good and bad, but above all they strive for the greater good, it is their main goal. We see this is true with James, Sirius and Remus, all openly fighting and even when asked to hide, they chaff at the bit - they want to fight, they want to win and they want to free the land of evil at all costs!

I would respectfully disagree with you. Snape faced Voldemort day in and out, cheating him to his face and feeding him false information and getting everything he could for the Order. If you would say that he did not say openly that Voldemort was his enemy and fight and die, yes, I agree. But a spy cannot do that and he fought the most dangerous war; and he would have come out in the open and fought Voldemort and the death eaters, had Harry been in danger at some point IMO. He was face to face with Voldemort and his death eaters for years and he came out victorious in the end IMO, Voldemort never finding out about his loyalties until after his death.

Right, we are in agreement - Snape worked as a spy - underground, both for evil and for good - he was a minion for both. He may have fought openly in some instances killing muggles as a death eater, we do not know. However, for the good side he never worked openly, never confronted Voldemort, never confronted any of the other evil minions to their faces and attempted to vanquish them. To his death, everyone in the wizard world thought he was evil, a loyal minion to Voldemort, doing his masters bidding. It is only because Harry told Voldemort that he was not that the dark lord doubted Snape (but in reality, he doubted Harry too). The only time this is not the case is when the hero of the entire story (i.e., Harry) was evil or evil for a time then wiped out evil - but that is only in the case for the big time, ultimate hero, not a minion or knight.

Contrast that with the Marauders. They fought openly against evil in the first war, no masks, no secrets, but rather went in swinging their swords in the face of evil - vanquishing minions and evil ways. They stood fast to the greater good till the day they died, never wavering in their quest to bring about the greater good for all man kind and destroy darkness forever. And the entire Wizard World knew it - there was no question that they were on the good side. When in hiding they never did anything that went against the principle of the greater good - they did not stand by and watch people tortured and killed for the greater good - they moved in and got their hands dirty, sacrificing their lives for it in the end. There was no question of their motivations - it was 100% to make the world a happy place - and no one doubted that. There was no unrequied love for a single woman that drove them, there was not a quest for revenge, there was only the pure desire to demolish Voldemort so that the world could be a place of justice and balance. That is their legacy, their prize for remaining steadfast to the greater good which finally won out. That is simply how Knights of the greater good are portrayed in fantasy.

posted by beatifically
Can you please clarify how they "suffered"? I wrote a long response to that, and I still don't understand. We've seen Snape suffer, Dumbledore suffer, and Draco suffer. We see good in all of them, too. We see mostly good from the Marauders and few bad ones. I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I meant suffered in the sense that their personalities suffered a bit with what we are shown in canon. Of course I agree with you partly about the points you raised. And I agree completely they fought bravely and courageously without being tempted by the dark arts or side.

But what you wrote in that post itself summed it up for me IMO.

Sure, they didn't have the same grand transformations as Dumbledore and Snape did...

I meant suffered in the sense that their personalities suffered a bit with what we are shown in canon. Of course I agree with you partly about the points you raised. And I agree completely they fought bravely and courageously without being tempted by the dark arts or side.

But what you wrote in that post itself summed it up for me IMO.

Well that's cause they didn't need huge transformations... there really wasn't much to be "redeemed". Snape has a ton of stuff to get cleared up, and Dumbledore suddenly did as well. The Marauders, on the other hand, just had little petty things to clear up, like their teenaged idiocies, but that was all cleared up in OotP, and Harry was completely cool with them from then on. And the Marauders (minus Peter) and Lily were really at the center of Harry's heart, and it was their complete love for him that got him to do the hardest thing he ever had to do. And it was so poignant to see his parents, Sirius, and Remus alonside him, because honestly, what in the world is harder than walking to your own death, knowing everything you're leaving behind?

Snape has his own thread. In fact, he has several. I'd be thrilled if you could focus on the Marauders in here.

I'm pleased Remus is so popular and it's nice to see that Peter has some fans too.

I'm pleased Remus is so popular and it's nice to see that Peter has some fans too.

Peter. Wow! Who likes him? :)

1) How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I doubt it would have had too much influence. Had it been a trio, almost certainly two would have been closer and the remaining group member feel pushed out or isolated. Remus was probably too smart and level headed to have petty jealousies, but knowing that James and Sirius both liked, respected and trusted him made him feel involved and a valued member of he group.

As for Peter, I expect he was only too happy that James and Sirius gave him the time of day and let him tag along, as he 'hero worshipped' them and probably wanted to have a share in their limelight. He would have (subconsciously?) seen the benefits of their protection and potential advancement of his social status. Perhaps this later developed into an undercurrent of jealousy and resentment, but it appears he only left the Marauders when it became evident he could no longer guarantee they would protect him.

2) Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

There is no evidence that Remus was the main suspect. All we knew is that Sirius suspected him, while Remus suspected Sirius. Neither suspected Wormtail as they thought him too inept. James would have thought it the greatest breach of honour to suspect his friends, so even if he had the slightest suspiscions, I doubt he would have harboured them for a moment.

3) James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

A mixture of both I think. It is clear they cared greatly for Remus, but it was a chance not only to have adventures, but for Sirius and James to show off their magical abilities and indulge their taste in rule breaking.

4) What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

The Marauders must have dated girls throughout their time at Hogwarts so I expect they thought it natural that James would have a crush on someone so pretty and popular. The fact she didn't like him back (at first) might have been a source of gentle teasing, but nothing James couldn't handle.

I doubt Lily would have had too much impact on the Marauder's friendship; they were all in Gryffindor so chances are they interacted a lot before James and Lily began seeing each other. She may have had more of an influence on James than Remus had, to persuade him not to carry out pranks that were cruel, but the implication is that by the time they got together in their seventh year, James had matured a good deal anyway and most likely wouldn't have needed that advice.

5) James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

They probably understood, knowing James and Sirius's deep friendship, it was an inevitable decision, just as making Sirius best man had been.

6) Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

Peter probably regretted not having the strength to resist Voldemort, but was ultimately self serving, so I expect he would have made the same choice again. He was probably never happy with his decision, but I don't see how he would have avoided it.

I doubt some of the Marauder's, particularly Sirius, could ever have forgiven him after seeing how many members of the Order had died and what Voldemort was capable of. James in particular would be unable to belive such a depth of treachery from someone he would consider a friend, and PoA shows Remus and Sirius were quite willing to kill Peter for what he had done. Perhaps he found some kind of peace in the afterlife, but that's assuming he went to the same place as the marauders...

7) Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For
instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

For James, Sirius, and Remus I expect the decision was unanimous as it was a group formed by Dumbledore. I can see Sirius leaping straight in with no backward glances and James and Remus's sense of honour would undoubtedly have compelled them to join. Peter may have had doubts and was even at this point maybe hedging his bets, but I expect he followed his friends, still believing they could protect him. He must have become quickly disillusioned as he began passing on information to Voldemort a year before James and Lily died.

8) The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?

I see a paralell with Harry and Malfoy's confrontation on the train with that of the marauders and Snape, as hostility was immediately established. Being a pure blood, James would have rejected the values of Slytherin on principle and Sirius would probably dislike the reminder of what his family stood for. Later, James in particular would have had a grudge against Snape due to his close friendship with Lily. Snape also had a fascination with the Dark Arts which James said to hate. Shown by his relentless bullying of Harry, Snape has shown he has a definite nasty streak in him and was no doubt as eager to dish out curses to James and his friends as they were to him. I expect Snape also resented James's popularity, and maybe saw him as the reason for his later estrangement with Lily.

I meant suffered in the sense that their personalities suffered a bit with what we are shown in canon.

I still don't understand. We don't see enough of them, but from what little we know, we know a lot of good things about their personalities rather than their bad qualities. There is barely any negative canon on their charactes (especially for Lily and James).

But what you wrote in that post itself summed it up for me IMO.

That they didn't have extraordinary transformations? I respect your opinion, but there wasn't anything major for them to transform out of. It's not as if they were committed great acts of evil or associated with evil and later felt remorse for their actions (Draco, Snape, Grindelwald, Dumbledore). They acted like idiots as teenagers and they grew out of that by canon. What else were they going to mature out of? It's not as if Harry had any major transformation . . . he grew up and became a better person, yes, but he was never a horrible person to begin with and didn't "suffer in canon" either.

Furthermore, Sirius, James and Lily didn't have the longest amount of time to mature. Lily and James died when they were twenty one. While they were most likely better people then than they were as teenagers, they still weren't perfect. They still had room to grow and develop into better people, but, thanks to Voldemort, they didn't get the chance to do so. Same goes with Sirius, but in a different way. Sirius was stuck in Azkaban for twelve years and didn't mature that drastically in between. He still did have flaws as an adult, but that was partially not his fault, IMO.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I would imagine Peter felt left out at times. Judging by SWM, he seemed more of a tag-along to me but nevertheless a friend they cared for. I don't think Remus would feel inferior, or if he did he would scold himself, because he was happy enough to actually have friends. Which is sad because he is so amazing but I think he often told himself that he didn't deserve friends at all (for his furry little problem) and that he should be grateful to have people who accepted him. That said, I think Remus and Peter probably had a silent understanding.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

Noble in every sense even if they had adventures in mind. I don't mean noble as in they were consciously thinking "Oh we're doing this for Remus, we're so selfless" etc. (:scared:) They were teenagers, they wanted to help their friend, and that was the most logical thing in their mind. The adventures were a plus.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

IMO they expected it and didn't mind. After all those years, Remus and Peter would know the other two were extremely close and honestly Sirius would be the first choice. I don't really see them getting all worked up about it and giving the pair the silent treatment or anything. If there were any hurt feelings, they would be quiet about it and once again, accept their blessings.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

Hmm if you mean follow reluctantly, then I disagree about Remus - I think he genuinely wanted to participate in the Order and work for the good. He was shunned his whole life, I see him trying to do his best in order to prove himself. As for Peter, he probably followed - the side with the most power, and all that.

How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?

Oh, I think the Weasley twins are better, if not intriguing. ;) I really don't see the twins bullying or picking on people (even if it was Snape!) - they wanted harmless fun. While I am sure James and Sirius weren't bad people, they did have teenager idiocies, but they grew out of them.

Peter. Wow! Who likes him? :)

Call me Crazy: But I don't hate Peter.

Why? Because he's the one we know the least about. NO home life, no family, hardly even a logic to his later acts in life. There's so much there that we dont know.

I have thought about this FAR to much.

Sadly, we dont know WHY Peter betrayed James and Lily. We dont know if he was tortured, or if he was bribed, if he was black mailed or if he just wanted them dead. Maybe Voldemort threatened to kill him, kill Sirius, kill Remus, kill who ever he loved. Maybe he told Peter than he would find the Potters eventually, and when he did it would be torture, but if he told him it would be quick. Maybe he was scared, and maybe he felt alone, maybe he felt forgotten (James, Lily, Sirius and Remus were apparently all shaking up and James was paying for everything, but not Peter.)

It's really hard to judge Peter without knowing WHY he did what he did.

Dying rather than betray is noble, but it's not always smart. Not speaking could have ended in the brutal tortures of his close friends. Maybe Peter thought it kind; give his friends a quick death rather than have them end up like the Longbottoms. He wasn't a brave person (Why he was a Gryffindor I'll never know. He didn't even get a cool death) But we'll never know his motives. (Or will we?)


I honestly think that Voldie probably bullied and blackmailed and threatened and tortured him into doing that he did, offering him cookies and guilt tripping him and filling him with terrible thoughts. "Why is James taking care of Remus and not you? See, he doesn't care. He never REALLY cared. But if you spare him a tortured death, if you grace him with a swift painless one, why, doesn't he at least deserve that?"

It's much easier to hate Peter than it is to like him. But once you start to really try and decode him, he's pretty interesting.

I just dont accept the notion than James would protect him for 7 years from all the bullies at school and them Peter would just decide "You know, Voldie has a better Dental and Health care plan, and there's a lower chance that I'll get killed so...yeah. Go ahead and kill James, heres his address."

I just don't accept the notion than James would protect him for 7 years from all the bullies at school and them Peter would just decide "You know, Voldie has a better Dental and Health care plan, and there's a lower chance that I'll get killed so...yeah. Go ahead and kill James, heres his address."

Better dental and health plan ... :lol:

Good post. :)

To me Peter has always been a Judas without a convincing enough motive, but your post has made me think about this again. :)

And, really, Peter gets so little out of it all. His life as Voldy's minion, after V returns to power, is simply miserable. :shrug:

Call me Crazy: But I don't hate Peter.

Why? Because he's the one we know the least about. NO home life, no family, hardly even a logic to his later acts in life. There's so much there that we dont know.

Hmmm.

I have thought about this FAR to much.

Now after your post, you're making me do that as well. :)

Sadly, we dont know WHY Peter betrayed James and Lily. We dont know if he was tortured, or if he was bribed, if he was black mailed or if he just wanted them dead. Maybe Voldemort threatened to kill him, kill Sirius, kill Remus, kill who ever he loved. Maybe he told Peter than he would find the Potters eventually, and when he did it would be torture, but if he told him it would be quick. Maybe he was scared, and maybe he felt alone, maybe he felt forgotten (James, Lily, Sirius and Remus were apparently all shaking up and James was paying for everything, but not Peter.)

I agree. There is no obvious motive in Peter's actions that I can see. But I can see a possible resentment at the back of his mind, perhaps that may form a motive.

It's really hard to judge Peter without knowing WHY he did what he did.

Dying rather than betray is noble, but it's not always smart. Not speaking could have ended in the brutal tortures of his close friends. Maybe Peter thought it kind; give his friends a quick death rather than have them end up like the Longbottoms. He wasn't a brave person (Why he was a Gryffindor I'll never know. He didn't even get a cool death) But we'll never know his motives. (Or will we?)

Dying, simply by rushing into danger knowing you're inviting death is never brave. It's foolhardy IMO. Unless there is no other choice of course, like in James's case. He really had no choice at that particular moment and he knew he would die and still he opposed Voldemort without a wand. While I wonder why he did not summon it, I can understand his fear and his primary want at that time, which would be to save Lily and Harry; to give them those extra seconds. But otherwise simply jumping into situations is never brave.

I agree with you on that, but I think Peter was in Gryffindor, mainly because he begged the Hat to put him there. I see Peter as a creeper, you know, he cannot really stand on his own. He needs a strong tree, that in his opinion will protect him and he clings to that, adjusting to that and allows himself to be secondary to that. But in th end he chokes and destroys the tree itself. Like the creeper I think his character is weak.

He was placed in Gryffindor, because I think, he thought Gryffindor would be the place, where the strongest would dwell; the bravest would be and he simply must have begged the Hat, like Harry did with Slytherin, saying *only Gryffindor* over and over again.

Of course, all this is only speculation, but this is the way I see him.

I honestly think that Voldie probably bullied and blackmailed and threatened and tortured him into doing that he did, offering him cookies and guilt tripping him and filling him with terrible thoughts. "Why is James taking care of Remus and not you? See, he doesn't care. He never REALLY cared. But if you spare him a tortured death, if you grace him with a swift painless one, why, doesn't he at least deserve that?"

It's much easier to hate Peter than it is to like him. But once you start to really try and decode him, he's pretty interesting.

I just dont accept the notion than James would protect him for 7 years from all the bullies at school and them Peter would just decide "You know, Voldie has a better Dental and Health care plan, and there's a lower chance that I'll get killed so...yeah. Go ahead and kill James, heres his address."

Perhaps, but he would have never been able to sway Peter if he was not already willing to be swayed, is what I think.

Where I think the Marauders made a mistake was to underestimate Peter. 7 years of friendship, you say, right, but what kind of friendship was it?

Was it a friendship of equals like James and Sirius or of understanding and compassion like James, Sirius and Remus? Or were they equals in any way otherwise.

I don't think so. Peter was a tag along. He caught on to them and tagged on behind them initially, until they shrugged their shoulders and accepted him, because he was amenable to everything they said, he admired them openly, he was willing to do anything for them. Of course I don't have canon for all this, I am only speculating, but Peter was never their equal; he was way below them.

He was not accepted in the way Sirius was or even Remus was or James was in that group. He was simply tolerated, because he wanted to go along with them.

I may be wrong, but I think, there might have been a hidden resentment in him that Voldemort used by finding out through Legilimency and used those feelings to pull Peter to his side and make him betray James, Sirius and Remus. Peter shatters the friendship for more than a decade. He manages to win against those friends who called him weak and who looked down on him; never badly, but rather unkindly as we see so often in RL.

I think that resentment was built up hugely by Voldemort and then Peter was his man.

Good thoughts on Peter. One thing, Peter was very vulnerable and always wanted to be friends with the "big man on the block". The other marauders did not sucker Peter into a friendship. Based on his personality, Peter likely courted them as companions because of their status on campus. It was open hearted of them to befriend him, but when he turned out to behave like a dork (i.e., not knowing the attributes of a werewolf after hanging around one for several full moons), they likely found him frustrating. I think it was rather big hearted of them to keep him as a friend at all because many people would have dumped him like a hot potato when they determined that he would continually behave like a duncecap.

At 15, I think James' reaction to him not knowing about werewolves was mild; many would have responded in a far less constructive manner (and James was hardly constructive). Sirius too was frustrated by Peter jumping around and raving over James. It has been suggested that James liked it and in moments it was likely an ego boost, but that type of behavior gets on ones nerves, no matter how big your ego is.

The Marauders didn't know Peter's true capabilities with respect to magic. But I think they did until a year before the Potter's death. I think Voldemort taught Peter a few things and that is why he felt that he was with the new biggest man on the block. His friends likely found him hopeless and apparently Dumbledore didn't take the time to teach him anything. Voldemort would be more patient - he would have a great incentive to do so. I don't think it would necessarily take any torture at all, only promise of greatness and a few magic tricks. I am not saying the opposite scenario is not possible, he may have been tortured into it. But I am just saying that it is also reasonable he was not.

Harry felt Peter showed some remorse in the end, so perhaps that is true. Because James and Harry appear to have thought alike, James would likely agree. I don't know if Sirius and Remus would though. I think they might have seen it as cowardice.

But I think they did until a year before the Potter's death.

How did you you come to this conclusion?

I always thought that one of their greatest weakness was not proper assessment of character and even Lily seems to be taken in by Peter. Either they were so careless, it is shocking, which I don't think they were, not when Harry's life for James, Lily and Sirius, and Harry's and Lily's life for James and Sirius were in danger.

So they I think, trusted him completely, never looking below the suface, to see a small, petty man IMO, who would not even sell them out, but most likely give them away for free. They just assumed he was a nobody and let him be. I think that was their mistake and that was what cost them.

They never thought him capable of any thing, let alone such a big thing like betrayal, and that was why Sirius asked for him as the change and James and Lily agreed. It was always, *Poor Peter*; and I mean, what will such a sweet man do? He showed them what he could, and they were devastated.

I think Voldemort employed Legilimency to read his inner thoughts and then, perhaps planted a few thoughts of his own, or more likely, swayed him, making him think, this was his big chance where, he could show James and Sirius a few things for all that he (Peter) felt they had done to him. So I think, the evil, weakness, vindictiveness and meaness was already there, Voldemort merely harvested it to his advantage.

Harry felt Peter showed some remorse in the end, so perhaps that is true. Because James and Harry appear to have thought alike, James would likely agree. I don't know if Sirius and Remus would though. I think they might have seen it as cowardice.

LOL; Harry is one of my faves; but I really think he's not the brightest sometimes? Peter was IMO shocked when Harry demanded the debt and he took a second to think about it, when he was disarmed. After that, he simply cowered; a thing he's got perfected over the years and that was that.

James would have killed him is what I think. If it was only him affected, yes, fine. If it was like in the shack where Sirius and Remus would have gotten into trouble, then maybe. But here, Lily was killed, Harry was living inside a cupboard for some 10 years and after that suffered all through the 7 books, and Sirius spent 13 years in Azkaban and Remus was almsot reduced to begging.

I think James would have thrown away his wand, and punched Peter to death.

I personally don't think tehre was any remorse going on with Peter. He hesitated because he was momentarily taken aback - he would have tied Harry up if the self-smother device on the Voldyhand hadn't kicked off.

I personally don't think there was any remorse going on with Peter. He hesitated because he was momentarily taken aback - he would have tied Harry up if the self-smother device on the Voldyhand hadn't kicked off.

I agree. And I don't think the text gives any suggestion that Harry saw any remorse in Peter at that point either.

I think James would have thrown away his wand, and punched Peter to death.

I can really see James doing that. I can imagine him incandescent with fury.

And I would not have blamed him.

I personally don't think tehre was any remorse going on with Peter. He hesitated because he was momentarily taken aback - he would have tied Harry up if the self-smother device on the Voldyhand hadn't kicked off.

I agree. Peter was a wimp IMO. He had no conscience and he had no loyalty. If he had a minute to think through, he would not have hesitated to hand Harry over to Voldemort and look big IMO.

posted by Pearl_Took
I can really see James doing that. I can imagine him incandescent with fury.

And I would not have blamed him.

For all that I have against James, I think this is what he'll do. If he doesn't, well, that's one more point against him in my book.

I can really see James doing that. I can imagine him incandescent with fury.

And I would not have blamed him.

I agree. Throughout the series characters have point out that Harry has some similarities to James. Dumbledore even says in PoA that James wouldn't have let Peter be killed by his two best friends. I sincerely doubt that James would actually kill his best friend. Killing rips the soul. It's the most evil thing a person can do, and that's what makes it possible for someone to make a horcrux. I don't think James would ever do that. There are worse things than death, as Dumbledore so rightly said.

I agree. Throughout the series characters have point out that Harry has some similarities to James. Dumbledore even says in PoA that James wouldn't have let Peter be killed by his two best friends. I sincerely doubt that James would actually kill his best friend. Killing rips the soul. It's the most evil thing a person can do, and that's what makes it possible for someone to make a horcrux. I don't think James would ever do that. There are worse things than death, as Dumbledore so rightly said.

I would respectfully disagree with you. Because if what you are saying is right; then what right has Dumbledore to demand of Snape that he MUST commit a wilful act of murder and deliberately split his soul?

Personally I think Harry's a far better person than James; but that's my personal opinion. But when Peter has betrayed and completely destroyed that family and his friends, I don't think James will be wrong in his anger, his fury and his desire to punch the living daylights of a man who helped Volemort to kill his wife and son.

The fact Harry did not die is because of other factors. Peter opened the doors of Godric's Hollow so that James, Lily and Harry would die.

I don't think such righteous anger would have harmed James and I don't think that would have split his soul either.

To me Peter has always been a Judas without a convincing enough motive, but your post has made me think about this again. :)

It's really interesting that you brought that up because I was just reading an editorial on Mugglenet on the Biblical references in HP. The author mentioned that the Marauder's betrayal is like the betrayal of Jesus by Judas. James transforms into a stag and that's a symbol of Christ. Peter's betrayal was somewhat like Judas' betryal.

Dying, simply by rushing into danger knowing you're inviting death is never brave. It's foolhardy IMO. Unless there is no other choice of course, like in James's case. He really had no choice at that particular moment and he knew he would die and still he opposed Voldemort without a wand. While I wonder why he did not summon it, I can understand his fear and his primary want at that time, which would be to save Lily and Harry; to give them those extra seconds. But otherwise simply jumping into situations is never brave.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but I think sometimes choosing death over life is brave. I see the sacrifice Lily and Harry made were incredibly brave as well. :)

He was not accepted in the way Sirius was or even Remus was or James was in that group. He was simply tolerated, because he wanted to go along with them.

I think that resentment would be a great explanation. If not that, then Peter probably betrayed the Marauders because he wanted to be protected by the biggest bully on the playground. But I disagree that the other Marauders simply tolerated him - I do think they all cared about him. The Marauders - Sirius and James in particular - were incredibly popular, and they could have chosen anyone, but they chose to be friends with Peter. There had to be something that made them remain friends with them other than the way he hero-worshiped them.

I would respectfully disagree with you. Because if what you are saying is right; then what right has Dumbledore to demand of Snape that he MUST commit a wilful act of murder and deliberately split his soul?

Well, that whole entire situation is really controversial. When you think about it, it's a lot like euthanasia, isn't it? Anyway, the situation is different. Snape had to kill Dumbledore because that was the best thing to do, in their view. Killing someone out of vengeance isn't, IMO. :no:

But when Peter has betrayed and completely destroyed that family and his friends, I don't think James will be wrong in his anger, his fury and his desire to punch the living daylights of a man who helped Volemort to kill his wife and son.

I don't think anger is wrong, but I think murder is. To kill Peter is just fighting fire with fire, IMO. Peter betrayed his family and caused his family to die. So James should just kill him? What good would that do? As much as James loved Harry and Lily, I don't think he would do that given Dumbledore's comment. Harry didn't want to see Peter killed and neither did James, and I respect that decision because I would do the same.

=beatifically;4903884]Well, that whole entire situation is really controversial. When you think about it, it's a lot like euthanasia, isn't it? Anyway, the situation is different. Snape had to kill Dumbledore because that was the best thing to do, in their view. Killing someone out of vengeance isn't, IMO. :no:

More than euthanasia, I think it is the intent that decides if one will be affected by the murder or not. Here James will not be because he is not wilfully murdering another person; he is retaliating for the terrible and deliberate acts of betrayal, which I don't think is wrong.

Why should Snape kill Dumbledore? Why could not Draco be persuaded to change within the School year? Why did not Dumbledore think of aother option like flashing away to places unknown with Fawkes so that Voldemort would not blame Draco or Snape?

So much could have been done IMO, but Dumbledore believed that Snape's soul would not be split because it was not a deliberate act of murder, for Draco it would have been.

James would have fought for the destruction of his family and friends. I don't think that would harm his soul.

I don't think anger is wrong, but I think murder is. To kill Peter is just fighting fire with fire, IMO. Peter betrayed his family and caused his family to die. So James should just kill him? What good would that do? As much as James loved Harry and Lily, I don't think he would do that given Dumbledore's comment. Harry didn't want to see Peter killed and neither did James, and I respect that decision because I would do the same.

Murder for murder's sake is wrong. Murder to right a terrible wrong so that the person who was still with the evil forces would never hurt anyone again? I don't know. These are very thin lines.

Or maybe because Peter had to survive anyhow. :)

How did you you come to this conclusion?

I always thought that one of their greatest weakness was not proper assessment of character and even Lily seems to be taken in by Peter. Either they were so careless, it is shocking, which I don't think they were, not when Harry's life for James, Lily and Sirius, and Harry's and Lily's life for James and Sirius were in danger.

So they I think, trusted him completely, never looking below the suface, to see a small, petty man IMO, who would not even sell them out, but most likely give them away for free. They just assumed he was a nobody and let him be. I think that was their mistake and that was what cost them.

They never thought him capable of any thing, let alone such a big thing like betrayal, and that was why Sirius asked for him as the change and James and Lily agreed. It was always, *Poor Peter*; and I mean, what will such a sweet man do? He showed them what he could, and they were devastated.


Ah you misunderstood me. I too believe they thought that Peter had little talent as a wizard. My point was that they were right. However, when Peter took up with Voldemort, he had a new instructor, someone who was patient and willing to take the time to teach him all that he had been unable to learn before because Voldemort had a good reason to do so. It would be a perfect way to get Peter in his clutches. Peter was vulnerable and looked for protection, he was not skilled. However, suddenly he was - how is that? It seems to me he had a teacher who drilled a few new skills into him, skills driven by dark magic. Peter would be eternally grateful.


LOL; Harry is one of my faves; but I really think he's not the brightest sometimes? Peter was IMO shocked when Harry demanded the debt and he took a second to think about it, when he was disarmed. After that, he simply cowered; a thing he's got perfected over the years and that was that.

You mean Harry and Dumbledore were not the brightest...they both thought that about Peter.

James would have killed him is what I think. .

I would respectfully disagree. James thought like Harry, Harry didn't kill Peter, so James wouldn't either. That is the only evidence we have of what James' might do. I respect all views, but I trust Dumbledore on this one, he said James thought like Harry and I see nothing to refute that in canon.

I would respectfully disagree with you. Because if what you are saying is right; then what right has Dumbledore to demand of Snape that he MUST commit a wilful act of murder and deliberately split his soul?

Actually in canon, Dumbledore asked Snape and Snape agreed to do it, then did it. Dumbledore was hardly in a position to make such a demand and tell Snape he must do anything. With respect to the comparison, Voldemort also could not make a demand of Peter without torture. If he didn't use torture, I would imagine he used finesse. The Marauders would not attempt to use finesse with their friend - it is dishonest and not the way they were shown to do things.

You mean Harry and Dumbledore were not the brightest...they both thought that about Peter.

Perhaps, yes.

In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry, that since he is far more intelligent than the average wizard, he is rarely wrong; but when he is, his mistakes tend to be correspondingly huge! And we have seen those instances in the books themselves.

Actually in canon, Dumbledore asked Snape and Snape agreed to do it, then did it. Dumbledore was hardly in a position to make such a demand and tell Snape he must do anything. With respect to the comparison, Voldemort also could not make a demand of Peter without torture. If he didn't use torture, I would imagine he used finesse. The Marauders would not attempt to use finesse with their friend - it is dishonest and not the way they were shown to do things.

And you think it was right of Dumbledore to ask Snape to deliberately commit a wiliful act of murder and split his soul, so that Draco could be saved; Dumbeldore would not be played with by Bella, and the Light and Harry Potter would befefit, by a spy still in Voldemort's employ?

James Potter lost almost everything because of one *friend* whom he trusted with, not his life, but the lives of his wife and child. I don't expect him to forgive Peter, ever! And I would also be disappointed in him, if he does not take the rat to task! IMO

I don't think anger is wrong, but I think murder is. To kill Peter is just fighting fire with fire, IMO. Peter betrayed his family and caused his family to die. So James should just kill him? What good would that do? As much as James loved Harry and Lily, I don't think he would do that given Dumbledore's comment. Harry didn't want to see Peter killed and neither did James, and I respect that decision because I would do the same.

I agree with you. I think you are spot on in your assessment of James here. It is the rght thing to do and while many of us might handle the situation differently (including me), James was wired like Harry and according to canon, they are far more compassionate than your average person, imo.

Perhaps, yes.

In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry, that since he is far more intelligent than the average wizard, he is rarely wrong; but when he is, his mistakes tend to be correspondingly huge! And we have seen those instances in the books themselves.

Yes, but he never admitted to being wrong in this instance. And whether he was or not is up to each reader to decide. I respect your view, but I wholeheartedly disagree with it. I think Dumbledore and Harry were correct. There is no magic associated with a life debt JRK said, so Peter's actions were all of his own accord.

I would respectfully disagree. James thought like Harry, Harry didn't kill Peter, so James wouldn't either. That is the only evidence we have of what James' might do. I respect all views, but I trust Dumbledore on this one, he said James thought like Harry and I see nothing to refute that in canon.

I agree. :) There is nothing that goes against Dumbledore's comment and it makes sense since so many characters compare James with Harry. JKR did say in some interview (I don't know which) that she often speaks to the reader through Dumbledore.

James Potter lost almost everything because of one *friend* whom he trusted with not his life, but the lives of his wife and child? I don't expect him to forgive Peter, ever! And I would also be disappointed in him, if he does not take the rat to task! IMO

James could have gotten Peter punished without killing him. Harry wanted Peter to be taken into Azkaban instead of leaving him dead, and James would have done the same, as canon clearly points out.

James could have gotten Peter punished without killing him. Harry wanted Peter to be taken into Azkaban instead of leaving him dead, and James would have done the same, as canon clearly points out.

Harry's reason for stopping Sirius and Remus from killing Peter was because he thought his father wouldn't want his best friends to become murderers. It had nothing to do with Peter himself and whether he should be killed or taken to Azkaban.

Harry's reason for stopping Sirius and Remus from killing Peter was because he thought his father wouldn't want his best friends to become murderers. It had nothing to do with Peter himself and whether he should be killed or taken to Azkaban.

I agree, and I really cannot imagine James Potter forgiving Peter for killing Lily alone; apart from making Harry an orphan and letting him live in a cupboard under the stairs and sending Sirius to Azkaban for 13 years.

Harry's reason for stopping Sirius and Remus from killing Peter was because he thought his father wouldn't want his best friends to become murderers. It had nothing to do with Peter himself and whether he should be killed or taken to Azkaban.

Yes, Harry did say that and I remember that. But I believe Harry never really wanted Peter dead, anyway. When Harry thought Sirius betrayed Lily and James, Harry pointed his wand at him but never killed Sirius. Harry isn't the kind of person that could kill people, IMO.

I agree, and I really cannot imagine James Potter forgiving Peter for killing Lily alone; apart from making Harry an orphan and letting him live in a cupboard under the stairs and sending Sirius to Azkaban for 13 years.

Sparing someone's life doesn't mean James would forgive Peter. But even if James would have forgiven Peter, that wouldn't mean James would excuse Peter's actions. A person can forgive without loving the person he or she forgave. Part of forgiveness is letting go of grudges, and James could have done that without excusing Peter's actions.

Yes, Harry did say that and I remember that. But I believe Harry never really wanted Peter dead, anyway. When Harry thought Sirius betrayed Lily and James, Harry pointed his wand at him but never killed Sirius. Harry isn't the kind of person that could kill people, IMO.

There's a big difference, in my opinion, between being incapable of commiting murder yourself and believing a person deserves to die.

Sparing someone's life doesn't mean James would forgive Peter. But even if James would have forgiven Peter, that wouldn't mean James would excuse Peter's actions. A person can forgive without loving the person he or she forgave. Part of forgiveness is letting go of grudges, and James could have done that without excusing Peter's actions.

Forgive Peter for killing Lily? Forgive him for the childhood Harry never had? Forgive him for thr 13 years Sirius spent in Azkaban with the likes of Bellatriz Lestrange and thought of as a murderer, a traitor and a betrayer of his closest friend and his family, murder of another friend and killing 13 innocent muggles?

I would respectfully disagree with you, because I don't think James would do that.

But I believe Harry never really wanted Peter dead, anyway.

I agree with Yoana's post for this.

Harry did want a lot of people dead. He wanted Voldemort dead; Sirius, before he knew the truth; Snape in 6th year when he is announced as the DADA professor and also after he sees Snape kill Dumbledore. He wants Bella dead for killing Sirius as well.

Harry did want a lot of people dead. He wanted Voldemort dead; Sirius, before he knew the truth; Snape in 6th year when he is announced as the DADA professor and also after he sees Snape kill Dumbledore. He wants Bella dead for killing Sirius as well.

I agree with you and Yoana about Harry and his reaction to Peter, T_G_W. (Congrats on your Hogsmeade status, by the way! :) )

I do not think Harry is a natural-born killer. No way! But he has very strong, passionate emotions - like his father - and he is capable of hatred. Canon certainly shows us that. Harry wanted to kill Snape when he thought of Snape as Dumbledore's murderer. But we never see Harry actually kill ... he never gets that far.

Anyway, back to Harry's dad ... :)

It's difficult to comment on what James's reaction to Peter's dreadful betrayal would have been, because it's all a matter of speculation and how we interpret the character. But, based on my perception of James, from canon, I cannot see him forgiving Peter. Only a superhuman saint would be able to forgive such a wicked deed ... and James is not portrayed as a saint.

I can only surmise that his reaction would have been similar to his son's: James probably would have wished, savagely, for Peter's death (and who can blame him?) As to whether he himself would have been angry enough to kill Peter himself ... Harry does say to Remus and Sirius that his father would not have wanted them to be murderers (especially killing a man in front of three 13 year olds. :wow: I find it pretty shocking that Remus and Sirius would have been prepared to do that in front of Harry, Ron and Hermione, however much I feel that Peter deserved death).

Harry, of course, never knew his father. :( And at this point of the saga - I refer to the Shrieking Shack chapter in PoA - his dead father is still very much an idealised image in Harry's head. So what Harry says about his father not wanting his best friends to be killers is conjecture on his part.

So, I don't know. I don't know how James would have reacted to Peter's betrayal. I cannot imagine him forgiving Peter though. No way. James seems to me to be pretty implacable in his emotions and not at all easily swayed. He loves greatly, and hates greatly: a quality he passed onto his son.

I agree with you and Yoana about Harry and his reaction to Peter, T_G_W. (Congrats on your Hogsmeade status, by the way! :) )

Thank you Pearl and wish you the same! :)

So, I don't know. I don't know how James would have reacted to Peter's betrayal. I cannot imagine him forgiving Peter though. No way. James seems to me to be pretty implacable in his emotions and not at all easily swayed. He loves greatly, and hates greatly: a quality he passed onto his son.

I just cannot see James forgiving all that I mentioned in my last post. I am still rooting for James throwing away his wand and punching Peter to oblivion and it would be just what the rat deseves if not more IMO.

I think that what Dumbledore told Harry about James is probably right. He told Harry that James would not want Peter killed by his friends. Harry wanted Peter punished. He wanted him given to the dementors and sent to Azkaban. That would be a likely choice for James, too. Killing a former friend, no matter had badly they betrayed you, might be difficult. But sending them off for the proper punishment would not be as difficult, in my opinion. It would be considered fair, too.

I have to agree with Susan here. Dumbledore and Harry both believe James would have acted like Harry in that situation. But note that Harry was not the one attempting to kill Peter. He and Dumbledore agreed that James would not 'want his friends to become murderers for the likes of Peter.' That really does not say anything about what James himself would do - or Lily either for that matter. Anything is possible of course - but I also think Harry felt that his father would not want him to become a murderer for the likes of Peter (or Harry would have killed him). But would James not want everyone to become a murderer for the likes of Peter and then wanted himself to become one for the likes of Peter?

Everything has value and that is something that is not being taken into consideration in this discussion. Peter had proven himself to be among the bottom rung of humanity. Is one's own soul and freedom worth taking the life of such a person? I don't think even James would think so - I don't think even Snape thought so - he also had the opportunity for revenge on Peter and did not take it either.

The sad truth is, Peter just wasn't worth it to anybody who was not steeped in an emotional rage.

I find it pretty shocking that Remus and Sirius would have been prepared to do that in front of Harry, Ron and Hermione, however much I feel that Peter deserved death).

Apparently that is not that big of a deal. Dumbledore didn't think twice about informing Snape it was time to kill him and their were two children present to witness it. And that time it happened.

I think that what Dumbledore told Harry about James is probably right. He told Harry that James would not want Peter killed by his friends. Harry wanted Peter punished. He wanted him given to the dementors and sent to Azkaban. That would be a likely choice for James, too. Killing a former friend, no matter had badly they betrayed you, might be difficult. But sending them off for the proper punishment would not be as difficult, in my opinion. It would be considered fair, too.

As far as Harry was concerned, he was already used to a life without his parents; while he resented Peter, he was at that point more concerned about Sirius being there for him, to really bother about Peter's punishment. For him his parents were people he really did not know, for James it will not be like that.

Jmaes would not take it like Harry did IMO. For him, it would be more devastating. Now I don't mean it was less harsh for Harry; what I meant was Harry did not know his parents, he suffered but at that time he wanted Sirius to be safe rather than a murderer. So I agree that of course Harry suffered.

But he would not suffer like James, for whom the after math would be immediate and tremendous. James would see the betrayal and its results and that's what we're arguing about and in that scenario I will be very disappointed if he reacts like Harry, with his primary concern about how to save himself from Azkaban or give the traitor a just punishment.

I would want his blood to boil and I would want him to want Peter's blood as well; I think he would not be wrong and he would also not harm his soul.

But calmly dispensing justice to Peter, I can't see James like that.

Everything has value and that is something that is not being taken into consideration in this discussion. Peter had proven himself to be among the bottom rung of humanity. Is one's own soul and freedom worth taking the life of such a person? I don't think even James would think so - I don't think even Snape thought so - he also had the opportunity for revenge on Peter and did not take it either.

That's a very good point, WWB.

And actually I had quite forgotten - until you and Susan Bones pointed it out - that Dumbledore concurred with Harry's opinion on James not wanting his friends to become murderers.

This whole question about what Peter deserves in terms of justice inevitably calls to mind Gandalf talking to Frodo about Gollum (another loathsome character who deserves death):

"Deserves it! I dare say he does. Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends."

One of my favourite LotR quotes :love: and I also think it is very pertinent to this discussion. :cool:

Because ultimately it was Fate that decided when Peter actually died ... he didn't die at any human hand, not even the hand of one who had just cause to hate him (Harry). (In fact, Harry even tried to save him!) Sorry, I realise I may be veering into the territory of Peter's character analysis here.

I came really late into this discussion. Oh well.

I have to say, I'm not sure what James would really do. Of course he's going to be mad as hell at Peter. It wasn't just James he killed. Lily died. Harry had to be raised by his horrible aunt and uncle and was robbed of a great, yet normal, life he could have had. Sirius was sent to Azkaban for 13 years [Sirius was deprived 13 year of his freakin' life!]. Remus had to live the fact that his three friends are dead and one is in Azkaban and he was utterly alone. James and Lily were robbed of the chance of raising Harry and having more kids.
Peter didn't just kill James and Lily, he ruined 3 other lives.

Which is why, if there ever was a confrontation with Peter in heaven, James wouldn't be alone. James, Lily, Sirius, and Remus [maybe even Snape. Thanks to Peter, the love of his life died, so I'm sure Snape would have something to say to him] would all confront Peter. They would make sure Peter knew how much their betrayal cost them. Sirius I totally see beating the stuffing out of Peter. Remus I imagine seething and letting out bottled-up pain from all those lonely years. But I don't know what James would do.

I came really late into this discussion. Oh well.

I have to say, I'm not sure what James would really do. Of course he's going to be mad as hell at Peter. It wasn't just James he killed. Lily died. Harry had to be raised by his horrible aunt and uncle and was robbed of a great, yet normal, life he could have had. Sirius was sent to Azkaban for 13 years [Sirius was deprived 13 year of his freakin' life!]. Remus had to live the fact that his three friends are dead and one is in Azkaban and he was utterly alone. James and Lily were robbed of the chance of raising Harry and having more kids.
Peter didn't just kill James and Lily, he ruined 3 other lives.

Which is why, if there ever was a confrontation with Peter in heaven, James wouldn't be alone. James, Lily, Sirius, and Remus [maybe even Snape. Thanks to Peter, the love of his life died, so I'm sure Snape would have something to say to him] would all confront Peter. They would make sure Peter knew how much their betrayal cost them. Sirius I totally see beating the stuffing out of Peter. Remus I imagine seething and letting out bottled-up pain from all those lonely years. But I don't know what James would do.

But James would have been made a little more happy when he learned that Wormtail actually helped out Harry. The scene in Malfoy Manor was Wormtail's biggest one. It showed me that he really did feel sorry for what he had done, and realized that he still had to be grateful to Harry for not killing him in PoA. Of course, this in no way redeems Wormtail completely in James' eyes. It just makes him realize that Peter wasn't completely worthless and felt some remorse.

I think Wormtail is a prime example that Jo made almost all of her characters (except Voldemort) have a good side somewhere. Anyone could change their ways quickly, and almost all of them did, except Voldemort, Bellatrix, and Umbridge. I was glad Wormtail redeemed himself.

The scene in Malfoy Manor was Wormtail's biggest one. It showed me that he really did feel sorry for what he had done, and realized that he still had to be grateful to Harry for not killing him in PoA. Of course, this in no way redeems Wormtail completely in James' eyes. It just makes him realize that Peter wasn't completely worthless and felt some remorse.

Right in the middle of trying to strangle James's son. :huh: I honestly don't think this is much of a redemption.

JMO. :)

I think Wormtail is a prime example that Jo made almost all of her characters (except Voldemort) have a good side somewhere. Anyone could change their ways quickly, and almost all of them did, except Voldemort, Bellatrix, and Umbridge.

I agree with you that Rowling's characters often have complex shades of grey, both her bad guys and good guys.

I was glad Wormtail redeemed himself.

I have to confess that I do not think that small impulse towards mercy was enough to redeem Peter. Not nearly enough.

I think he died the death he deserved. I'm just glad that it wasn't Harry who killed him. Providence did. :cool:

Forgive Peter for killing Lily? Forgive him for the childhood Harry never had? Forgive him for thr 13 years Sirius spent in Azkaban with the likes of Bellatriz Lestrange and thought of as a murderer, a traitor and a betrayer of his closest friend and his family, murder of another friend and killing 13 innocent muggles?

I would respectfully disagree with you, because I don't think James would do that.

I think James would abhor Peter for what he did to his family. I think it's safe to assume that James loved his family a lot and would have been hurt (understatement) by Peter's choice to save himself and send his family to their deaths. However, one could be hurt and think one is wrong for doing something and forgive at the same time. Forgiveness isn't excusing someone for their actions or believing it's "okay" - it's letting go of grudges and moving on. I would be content if James did that instead of dwell on the past and what Peter did. :)

There's a big difference, in my opinion, between being incapable of commiting murder yourself and believing a person deserves to die.

And that's the same way for James. He may have believed Peter deserved to die but that doesn't mean he would have acted upon it. I am going to agree to disagree with you if you think that James would have killed Peter as well. I base my interpretation off of canon, and I believe that is a correct portrayal of James' character.

I would want his blood to boil and I would want him to want Peter's blood as well; I think he would not be wrong and he would also not harm his soul.

But calmly dispensing justice to Peter, I can't see James like that.

I still disagree. Dumbledore said he knew James well when he was a student and when he was an adult, and I trust Dumbledore's judgment and that's where my opinion comes from.

Sending Peter to Azkaban isn't a bad thing, either. I saw some cartoons involving superheroes when I was a kid and one thing I always noticed was that the hero always tried to get the "bad guy" in prison rather than resort to killing. That's what I think James would do.

That's a very good point, WWB.

And actually I had quite forgotten - until you and Susan Bones pointed it out - that Dumbledore concurred with Harry's opinion on James not wanting his friends to become murderers.

This whole question about what Peter deserves in terms of justice inevitably calls to mind Gandalf talking to Frodo about Gollum (another loathsome character who deserves death):

"Deserves it! I dare say he does. Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends."

One of my favourite LotR quotes :love: and I also think it is very pertinent to this discussion. :cool:

It is true, I agree. And yet, just like a jury or judge in a court of law does make such a judgment, so too in Potterverse it is. Sometimes people take it upon themselves to issue the judgment (like Snape with respect to Lupin and Sirius) - and in those cases we see why it is important to have an impartial decider who willingly listens to both sides before issuing a judgment. Of course Gandalf's statement still stands - even a wise judge and jury cannot see all ends.

I think James would abhor Peter for what he did to his family. I think it's safe to assume that James loved his family a lot and would have been hurt (understatement) by Peter's choice to save himself and send his family to their deaths. However, one could be hurt and think one is wrong for doing something and forgive at the same time. Forgiveness isn't excusing someone for their actions or believing it's "okay" - it's letting go of grudges and moving on. I would be content if James did that instead of dwell on the past and what Peter did. :)

Letting go and moving on!

I will have to disagree with you on this. :) The James I have in mind, is someone I cannot see moving on without dwelling on the past.

I still disagree. Dumbledore said he knew James well when he was a student and when he was an adult, and I trust Dumbledore's judgment and that's where my opinion comes from.

I am basing my opinion on what little I saw of James in the books themselves and by also like you on what the others said about him. But, obviously we have come to different conclusions. :)

Sending Peter to Azkaban isn't a bad thing, either. I saw some cartoons involving superheroes when I was a kid and one thing I always noticed was that the hero always tried to get the "bad guy" in prison rather than resort to killing. That's what I think James would do.

And I based it on films like Om Shanti Om (the SRK flim), where Shanti sends her ex husband to death as a fitting punishment of his own cruel actions towards her causing her death in the first instance. :)

I will have to disagree with you on this. :) The James I have in mind, is someone I cannot see moving on without dwelling on the past.

Do you have any canon that supports that?

I am basing my opinion on what little I saw of James in the books themselves and by also like you on what the others said about him. But, obviously we have come to different conclusions. :)

My problem is that I don't understand why JKR would include Dumbledore's comment for no reason. The quote had a purpose, and unless JKR provided some information that clearly contradicted that statement, I don't see why it's false.

Guys, do stick to canon while explaining why you feel any of the characters being discussed here would act in a particular manner, please? :)
Happy posting!

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I think the group dynamic was one that suited all of them. They each took up the role in which they felt most comfortable. Perhaps there were moments that R and P felt left out, but overall they were content. Remus is always kind of a loner; he doesn't really need or expect a friendship like that between James and Sirius. If anything we've seen he has the tendency to push others away. Peter seemed to just idolize the others to the point that a friendship on equal terms would have been impossible. Later on, though, I think this might have had something to do with his betrayal

Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?

I always imagined it was like this:
James-Someone's a spy
Sirius-It's not me. It can't be Peter.
By process of elimination, Remus became the most likely suspect. As I said, he has the tendency to push others away, and it's possible that something happened to trigger this right around the time the Potters went into hiding. Perhaps he found out about Greyback, or a loved one died. In any case, more emotional distance than usual could be misconstrued as guilt in such times.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

A bit of both. They were only boys, but I think that despite their flaws, they cared deeply about their friend. I'm sure that this small act of resistance to the standing social order (i.e. the mistreatment of werewolves) was just the first taste of their fight for justice later on.

What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?

I'm certain they made fun of him in the way that friends do, but they were there to back him up when he needed it. Once Lily joined the fold, so to speak, I think their relationship had to change. That comes with getting older, and by the time Lily agreed to go out with James, there must have been a girlfriend or two in someone's past that would have ushered in this change. Maybe Sirius had his moments when he didn't like Lily for taking away his best mate, but ultimately they were all very dear friends (see her letter to him in DH). It would have been an adjustment though.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

Understanding, I'm sure. Peter was probably already working for Voldemort, or at least thinking about it. Remus might have felt a little sad, but this would be more to do with his feelings about his lycanthropy that a lack of understanding that James would choose Sirius. Besides, they couldn't have imagined that Harry would be the only child (until Teddy, that is). For all they knew, there were other godfather-ship opportunities in the future.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I think Peter's betrayal was driven primarily by fear, but it may also have been his way of gaining the power that he saw in his friends, and indeed over-powering them. I don't think he was happy with the decision; he was low on the DE pecking order too. Forgiveness -- no. Sirius and Remus we've seen on that note, and I can't imagine that James could forgive his friend for the death of his wife and his own, not to mention the attempted murder of his child. Or his role in bringing Voldemort back. Or his framing Sirius for murder. None of the above.

Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

This question goes back to the first one though, and I think the distiction needs to be made between the roles Remus and Peter played within their group. Remus wasn't so much an underling to S and J as he was peripheral to their friendship. They saw him as their equal. Remus might not have considered himself their equal because of the lycanthropy, but I don't think he just "followed" them around everywhere. As I said before, he just kept a bit of distance.
That said, Peter probably would have been happy not to join the Order, but the others would have felt very strongly about it.

Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?

Favorably. Especially the forest scene -- sob! Like all of Jo's good guys, they have flaws but they are kind and fair and noble at heart. They have the ability to love, and that's why the Marauders fought as hard as they did. They were brothers.

Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?

Remus. I have the tendency to wax poetic about him, but I do love him. What is most impressive is his sense of fairness in spite of everything he's been through. He's obviously damaged, but he could easily have become bitter and unpleasant. Instead, he keeps himself together and gives his life for the people he loves.

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
i think maybe they did'nt care much cuz they were all best friends and just cuz they were a little closer prolly did'nt mean much. they knew em well enough not to think they were being liked lesser or anything.


2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
i don't get this question...lol...remus what the main suspect of what??:whistle:

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
i think a little of both. they wanted to prolly to be close to him in his time of need but chose animagi to show off a little...thats juss them tho.:lol:

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
they prolly teased him a little but i don't think they would ever like get mad at him or something...they prolly gave him advice on how to get her attention...or hot to annoy her really...:lol:

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
prolly made james want to show off more and more and the boys just went along with him...they were just teenage boys...what do you expect! :lol:

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
they prolly understood. i mean they always knew he was a little closer to sirius.

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
i dunno...hard question. he prolly felt a little remorse...but not much.

8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
they prolly joined in themselves. they were always adventourous right...maybe they joined because they knew they wanted to tight abgainst him...or something like that.

9. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
well in snapes memories..it shows snape with lily on thier way to hogwarts for the first time and james already shows dislike...so i dunno...

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
i think they were almost just alike...had the same goals possibly.:lol: but even hagrid said...the weasley could have them run for their money...

11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
i still liked them all the same...love em really!

12.Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
i would like to say sirius...cuz he wanted so much not to be like his family and he liked to be his own person...a individual...i like that.


and just something else about the marauders...you know how their names came up on the map when harry first saw it...(messers. moony, wormtail, padfoot and prongs) thats the order they died...prongs first then padfoot and wormtail and last moony...sad huh?!?

I am basing my opinion on what little I saw of James in the books themselves and by also like you on what the others said about him. But, obviously we have come to different conclusions.
Jo has provided statements throughout the books that help us understand various characters. Those statements have seldom proven to be wrong. Other than the deliberate misdirection in PoA about Sirius (and Pettigrew), which was clearly revealed as misdirection by the end of the book, and the very similar misdirection about Moody in GoF, which was also revealed as misdirection, what has been stated about characters has been reliable canon.

Unless we have shown statements or knowledge that was subsequently reversed, they are what Jo intended us to know. Alternatively, unless Jo has modified that information with a post-DH interview, what is in the books stands. Jo did recently tell us that the Slytherins returned with Slughorn. That does somewhat alter what we knew from the books. But I suspect that was something that should have been made more clear in DH, but was left out as an oversight. I don't think she changed her mind.

So, the little we have learned about the Marauders should be what we rely on. Jo has always been sparing in her backstory. Therefore every word has value and cannot be ignored.

I have to confess that I do not think that small impulse towards mercy was enough to redeem Peter. Not nearly enough. I think he died the death he deserved. I'm just glad that it wasn't Harry who killed him. Providence did. :cool:

I agree that the way in which it was written left one wondering what exactly Peter was thinking, lol. But I think that is why JKR later had Harry say that he felt Peter had been repentant. Harry was there, staring at him and got many visual clues we did not, so it is possible that he was. Dumbledore said the same thing. I don't find it tremendously difficult to believe. Voldemort, for all of his promises made to Peter, was not a worker-friendly employer. I don't think that Peter was happy on the job over the years and he likely got to thinking in later life that he'd made a rash and horrible mistake in betraying his friends. We had so little Marauder canon, but one imagines that Peter hung out with them and did all of the normal things friends do for many years. Swiming, hiking, watching games, pulling pranks, sitting around chatting, running through the wilderness to accompany Lupin, etc. So it isn't like Peter did not have youthful memories to draw on as well as memories as a young adult, that would leave him feeling conflicted and later turn into repentance.

I agree that all we heard about was the small impulse, but if the hand had not strangled him, it may have stretched into an even bigger impulse and flat out refusal to harm Harry. Too, Peter was conflicted and moody when he visited the Potters shortly before their deaths. So I don't find it impossible that he had remorse over his actions in the long term - if it was sufficient to redeem him I wouldn't think so - but we have too little canon on Peter to really judge, imo. On the other hand, it was such a little thing, I can easily see the other side too - that his touch of remorse was not enough to redeem him, but again, we need more canon I think. Either way, I am certain that at least James, Lily and Harry forgave him in the end. I dunno about the other two Marauders.

We also saw a hint in GoF that Peter was soft about Harry. He suggested to Voldemort that they could use someone else's blood instead of Harry.

I agree that the way in which it was written left one wondering what exactly Peter was thinking, lol. But I think that is why JKR later had Harry say that he felt Peter had been repentant. Harry was there, staring at him and got many visual clues we did not, so it is possible that he was. Dumbledore said the same thing. I don't find it tremendously difficult to believe.

Was this something Jo said in an interview? I don't remember Harry saying in DH that Peter had been repentant. *is puzzled*

Voldemort, for all of his promises made to Peter, was not a worker-friendly employer.

To put it mildly. :lol: For someone who sells his soul to the devil, Peter gets practically nothing out of the bargain.

Either way, I am certain that at least James, Lily and Harry forgave him in the end.

Well, since James and Lily are dead, we have no way of knowing whether they would have forgiven Peter or not. :huh:

Same goes for Remus and Sirius. I can only speculate that Sirius in particular would have found Peter's final actions 'too little, too late'.

Harry doesn't call Peter back through the Resurrection Stone, does he? (Which is hardly surprising!)

Harry never expresses any strong feelings towards Peter, not even hatred, which is surprising, given what Peter did to his family! We see him exercise a cool and righteous contempt towards Peter in PoA - when he also decides to show Peter mercy, thus making him morally superior to Peter :cool: - and that really is the only time we ever see him demonstrate much emotion towards Peter at all.

Was this something Jo said in an interview? I don't remember Harry saying in DH that Peter had been repentant. *is puzzled*

Yes, Harry thought to himself in DH that Dumbledore had felt Peter was repentent. He was considering the impulse that held Peter's hand back from choking him to death. Harry was thinking about remorse in that moment and his thoughts were along the lines of "if Peter could feel remorse, someone else he was considering could also" or something like that. Oh where is Hedwig Owl?? A poster who is brilliant at finding references - that one has an outstanding memory, unlike mine which is nearly shot :lol: I have to study so I can't search for the passage right now, but later on I will look it up...promise. ;)

Yes, Harry thought to himself in DH that Dumbledore had felt Peter was repentent. He was considering the impulse that held Peter's hand back from choking him to death. Harry was thinking about remorse in that moment and his thoughts were along the lines of "if Peter could feel remorse, someone else he was considering could also" or something like that. Oh where is Hedwig Owl?? A poster who is brilliant at finding references - that one has an outstanding memory, unlike mine which is nearly shot :lol: I have to study so I can't search for the passage right now, but later on I will look it up...promise. ;)

I'm not HedwigOwl, but I think I have the quote that you're looking for:

And you understood Wormtail too... You knew there was a bit of regret there, somewhere.
And if you knew them... What did you know about me, Dumbledor?
I don't think Harry really hated Wormtail as much as he had thought. He had turned over Lily and James to Voldemort, but that was something done out of cowardice, not because Wormtail was evil. After all, he had been one of Harry's dad's best friends as a kid. I think Harry was glad that Wormtail had shown a bit of remorse, that he had remembered who Harry was and what he owed to him. I was glad that Wormtail partially redeemed himself. I doubt that would have done it completely for the ones he betrayed, but it showed that he cared.

One interesting thing that no one has brought up so far: What was Lupin's reaction when he learned that Peter had been killed? We never saw him react, but I would umagine he would be indifferent. Remus must have hated Peter for betraying Lily and James, but I think he realized that it was an act done out of fear, and someone doesn't deserve to be dead because of being afraid. It means they are flawed, but not a terrible person. I think the result of what Peter did stood out more than what he actually did. Remus would remember that they used to be friends, and feel a little sad, especially after he learned Wormtail had let Harry go. Remus didn't seem to hate Peter as much as Sirius for what he did in PoA, so I imagine he wouldn't be exactly happy when he learned of Wormtail's death.

I'm not HedwigOwl, but I think I have the quote that you're looking for:

And you understood Wormtail too... You knew there was a bit of regret there, somewhere.
And if you knew them... What did you know about me, Dumbledor?
I don't think Harry really hated Wormtail as much as he had thought. He had turned over Lily and James to Voldemort, but that was something done out of cowardice, not because Wormtail was evil. After all, he had been one of Harry's dad's best friends as a kid. I think Harry was glad that Wormtail had shown a bit of remorse, that he had remembered who Harry was and what he owed to him. I was glad that Wormtail partially redeemed himself. I doubt that would have done it completely for the ones he betrayed, but it showed that he cared.

One interesting thing that no one has brought up so far: What was Lupin's reaction when he learned that Peter had been killed? We never saw him react, but I would umagine he would be indifferent. Remus must have hated Peter for betraying Lily and James, but I think he realized that it was an act done out of fear, and someone doesn't deserve to be dead because of being afraid. It means they are flawed, but not a terrible person. I think the result of what Peter did stood out more than what he actually did. Remus would remember that they used to be friends, and feel a little sad, especially after he learned Wormtail had let Harry go. Remus didn't seem to hate Peter as much as Sirius for what he did in PoA, so I imagine he wouldn't be exactly happy when he learned of Wormtail's death.

Thank you Deathly - another reference expert! I envy you all. I agree with what you have written here. I too feel that Remus would have some feelings of sadness about Peter. The Marauders were a tight group at one time. But there was a lot of anger in him toward Peter too, so I imagine his emotions would be a feeling that Peter got what he deserved, tinged with sadness, as you indicated.

I agree with the above. His experience and emotions connected with Peter are very different than Harry's. Harry first saw him as a cringing, frightened man, guilty though he certainly was, and I think this made a pretty strong impression. Remus, though, must have thought back to their early friendship and the days before his betrayal. He probably got some grim satisfaction that the man Peter became had met his end, but he would certainly be sad for the memory of the boy Peter. It must have crossed his mind that he was the last Marauder standing as well, and that brings up a whole different grief.

I don't think Harry really hated Wormtail as much as he had thought. He had turned over Lily and James to Voldemort, but that was something done out of cowardice, not because Wormtail was evil. After all, he had been one of Harry's dad's best friends as a kid.

The fact that Peter was one of James's best friends makes his betrayal more terrible, not less. Betrayal by a friend is far, far worse than betrayal by an enemy! I think what Peter did was truly evil. He betrayed his friends James and Lily, knowing that Voldemort would target them in order to murder their baby son, and then probably kill them as well ... all to save his own skin. Having done that, he then frames Sirius for mass murder. Then he hides for 12years, in his animagus form, and goes straight back to serving Voldy when Voldy rises again. There is never any sign of remorse or repentance. He is willing to hand 14 year old Harry over to Voldemort to be tortured and killed.

One slip because of cowardice is one thing. There is something deeply calculating and self-serving about Peter's actions after his initial act of betrayal. I find his actions totally despicable and I don't have much pity for the character.

Whereas I did (eventually) feel pity for the 'Pettigrew' equivalent in LotR - the character of Grima Wormtongue, hapless slave to another wannabe Dark Lord (Saruman, who desires to be Sauron Mark Two). I always wonder whether Rowling had Wormtongue in mind when she created Peter's nickname. Grima starts off despicable and ends up completely broken. I don't see a similar brokenness in Peter, so I don't feel able to feel much pity.

Remus, though, must have thought back to their early friendship and the days before his betrayal. He probably got some grim satisfaction that the man Peter became had met his end, but he would certainly be sad for the memory of the boy Peter. It must have crossed his mind that he was the last Marauder standing as well, and that brings up a whole different grief.

I agree: I can well believe this reaction of Remus. :tu: I see him as the most thoughtful and perceptive of the Marauders, and the most compassionate.

The 'last Marauder standing'. Waaaaaaaah! :upset:

Yes, there is always an air of great melancholy around Remus, isn't there, right from the first time we meet him in PoA. :sad:

The fact that Peter was one of James's best friends makes his betrayal more terrible, not less. Betrayal by a friend is far, far worse than betrayal by an enemy! I think what Peter did was truly evil. He betrayed his friends James and Lily, knowing that Voldemort would target them in order to murder their baby son, and then probably kill them as well ... all to save his own skin. Having done that, he then frames Sirius for mass murder. Then he hides for 12years, in his animagus form, and goes straight back to serving Voldy when Voldy rises again. There is never any sign of remorse or repentance. He is willing to hand 14 year old Harry over to Voldemort to be tortured and killed.

Yes, that is the side we all cannot ignore. :) One thing though, how do you see any of it as self-serving? He didn't seem to get anything out of the deal at all. Perhaps he felt it would come when Voldemort gained power, but to be honest, I don't believe he was happy with the outlook.


I agree: I can well believe this reaction of Remus. :tu: I see him as the most thoughtful and perceptive of the Marauders, and the most compassionate.

The 'last Marauder standing'. Waaaaaaaah! :upset:

Yes, there is always an air of great melancholy around Remus, isn't there, right from the first time we meet him in PoA. :sad:

Well he wasn't the last standing for long and he did have his wife and newborn to keep up his spirits. Then of course, the Marauders were reunited...wives as well. I dunno, I saw it as the greatest outcome and they left a kick legacy in Teddy and Harry as well. :)

One thing though, how do you see any of it as self-serving? He didn't seem to get anything out of the deal at all. Perhaps he felt it would come when Voldemort gained power, but to be honest, I don't believe he was happy with the outlook.

Well, I was thinking that he did it all purely to save his own skin. :cool:

Peter remains stuck in the same role all his life: from being the rather pathetic child who is awestruck by James Potter's awesome Snitch-catching skills and grateful to be included in The Gang, he becomes a servile, pathetic fan of Voldemort.

Well he wasn't the last standing for long and he did have his wife and newborn to keep up his spirits.

When he wasn't planning to do a runner on them. ;)

OK, less facetiously: I find Remus's depression and self-doubt in DH very believable. He's hardly ever a happy man: understandably so. An honourable and decent man, with some flaws too ... but the moments of happiness he experiences are all too brief.

Then of course, the Marauders were reunited...wives as well. I dunno, I saw it as the greatest outcome and they left a kick legacy in Teddy and Harry as well. :)

It was a poetic and beautiful outcome, to be sure; the Resurrection Stone. But the tragedy of the Marauders - with the fallout affecting Harry's life - is the element that gives the HP series its dark emotional punch, IMO.

Before I post, I would like to say that everything I post is my own opinion. :)

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
I don't think it affected Remus a lot; he knew that they were all friends together and he wasn't too much bothered with James' and Sirius' closer friendship within he group, except for maybe feeling a tiny bit left out, but he didn't resent them for it or anything. On the other hand, I think Peter felt more left out than Remus. He was kind the 'mis-fit' of the group and he admired all of his friends, so I imagine he kind of envied their friendship. JMHO. :)

2. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
I'm not really sure about that. He probably just seemed to be the most likely suspect at the time.

3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous? I think a little bit of both. It was definitely noble of them to help out there friend in a time of need when he was all alone and no one could help him, but I think it was also the adventure of it that they really enjoyed. They always looked forward to the next full moon when they could all go out together in secret and do their little excursion in the Shrieking Shack.

4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
I'm sure that they all teased James about it, like all friends will, but they probably also supported him when he needed the support from them.

5. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
Well, it definitely had to change their friendeship somehow. Suddenly, it wasn't just the four Marauders. It was the four Marauders and Lily Evans. I'm sure that they were all affected and kind of felt a little separated from James, especially Sirius, but they were all best friends, so they got through it and just learned to accept Lily. JMHO.

6. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
I think they were understanding about it; they always knew that Sirius and James had a close friendshp within their group, and so naturally James would choose Sirius. But I also think that they felt a tiny bit hurt or left out, as is to be expected, but they didn't resent James' choice...they knew he'd pick Sirius. JMHO.

7. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
I don't think Peter was exactly happy with his desision, I think he just just betrayed them because he was scared. And no, I don't James, Sirius, or Remus would forgive them. His betrayal got James and Lily killed. I don't think that is something that is very easy to forgive. As we saw in PoA, Remus and Sirius definitely didn't forgive Peter. They were set on killing Peter, and if Harry hadn't stopped them, they surely would have done it. JMO.

8. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
IMO, Remus joined the Order because he wanted to. He wanted to fight against Voldemort. But for Peter, I think it was peer pressure because he was scared that he would be killed if he was in a group that was fighting against LV.

9. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?IMO, they antagonised other students that were into the Dark Arts, but they singled out Snape from the start. We see that in "The Prince's Tale" in DH. The picking on Snape started on the Hogwarts Express. But I think it would be a little different if Snape were in Gryffindor -- they would respect him a little more.

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
To me, nobody's funnier than Fred and George. :p But the Marauders were definitely comparable to Fred and George, that is, Fred and George were comparable to the Marauders, since the Marauders were there first. After all, Fred and George used the Marauders' Map. The Marauders paved the way for Fred and George.

11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
Ever since "Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP, I had lost respect for James, but in DH I kind of gained that respect for him back. And in the forest, the Marauders were definitely portrayed as honorable and noble...:sad: And now they are all gone.

12. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
I think it's a tie between Remus and Sirius. Sirius was a very fierce and loyal friend, which is a very admirable trait, but there's also something about Remus that I just can't put my finger on...He was very noble, but there's something else, too...

Peter remains stuck in the same role all his life: from being the rather pathetic child who is awestruck by James Potter's awesome Snitch-catching skills and grateful to be included in The Gang, he becomes a servile, pathetic fan of Voldemort. That seems to be a part of Peter's nature, the fact that he follows whomever has the most power and influence. I often wondered why the other Marauders became friends with Peter, because he seems the most different from the other three. It's possible Peter's desire to always be in the shadow of those more powerful than him might suggest that he could have had some self-esteem issues. Interestingly enough, we can clearly see that Remus has low self-esteem at times, but it manifests itself in a very different way.
I find Remus's depression and self-doubt in DH very believable. He's hardly ever a happy man: understandably so. An honourable and decent man, with some flaws too ... but the moments of happiness he experiences are all too brief. I'd have to agree. This is a manifestation of Remus' low self esteem - he often thinks he's not good enough to have certain experiences (or to deserve the love of Tonks).

1. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
i think it was no problem...remus and peter was porlly okay about them being a bit closer...it was prolly like hanging out with a set of brothers...so yeah...i don't think they minded it to much.

2.Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
i don't really know why...i guess it was just like that for the plot to go in motion...cuz i can't think of a reason for them to think of remus as a spy or something.
3. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
i think a bit of both...wanted to stay close but also to show off a little. its just how they were....:lol:
4. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders?
they were prolly okay with it...not like they could tell him to stop and prolly knew he wouldn't even if they tried. or maybe they thought it was good for him...to keep going after someone who wasn't intrested...prolly thought of it as hilarious! i would.

5. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
they were prolly understanding...they knew they were like brothers. and they were all friends.

6. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
i think he was very unhappy with this decision...i think he wanted to stay friends with them...but didn't want to be killed by voldemort...its kinda sad tho...he should of valued his friends more than himself...they loved him.

7. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?
i don't think so...i think they joined by their selves...i mean they were the maruders..they always wanted to be in the action! why wouldn't they join.

8. The Marauders had a very hostile relationship with Snape. Would this have been different if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor? Did the Marauders antagonise other students that were into the Dark Arts as well or did they single out Snape from the start?
i don't know bout this one. they has to be a reason they didn't like snape...james prolly didn't like him because he can sense snape's feelings for lily...prolly just saw him as a threat. and snape being into the dark arts just saw it as another reason to hate him...

9. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as funny as the Weasley twins?
i think they much alike...but i think the weasley's were a bit better because they invented thier own things and didn't make fun of people much...they just loved to entertain...
10. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
i loved them all the same...

11. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
i think i loved sirius best because he was just so rebellious towards his family...he didn't think to much of tradition and i think that was a good trait for him...

That seems to be a part of Peter's nature, the fact that he follows whomever has the most power and influence. I often wondered why the other Marauders became friends with Peter, because he seems the most different from the other three. It's possible Peter's desire to always be in the shadow of those more powerful than him might suggest that he could have had some self-esteem issues. Interestingly enough, we can clearly see that Remus has low self-esteem at times, but it manifests itself in a very different way.

Remus had some self-esteem issues, at times, but I think he always found ways to get over them. He didn't like being a werewolf, but his friends made it so much better by becoming Animagi. Self-esteem wasn't reall an issue for him later, when he and the others were all really close and they supported him. Peter, on the other hand, had self-esteem problems for only one reason: he always seemed a lot more weak and pathetic than his friends, who were the typical "cool kids" at school. That had to have annoyed him a lot.

You ask why the others became friends with him? To tell the truth, I don't really know for sure either. He was such a different person from all of them. I think it may have been because the other Marauders felt a bit bad for him that he didn't have many friends, and let him hang out with them to make him feel better about it. It's really a bit sad, actually, that someone who wasn't liked very much as a kid went on to do some pretty bad things as an adult.

Part of Peter's problem before he started hanging out with the others was that being someone with few friends at first, he probably wanted to hang out with the biggest, toughest kids all the time. when he got older, and his self-esteem went down again because he wasn't doing anything cool and exciting like the other Marauders, he still wanted to make himself heard, and maybe prove something to himself. That, IMO, is why he went to Voldemort.

Peter may have become friends with them because they were all dorm mates. That doesn't lessen the value of the friendship they shared, but he may never have meshed with them all that well. He did like being friends with the in-crowd, and he gravitate toward whatever group would give him the most status and power. That's why he was tempted by Voldemort, but all the canon we saw showed him being treated like dirt by Voldemort.

I believe this line was included not only to highlight the significant understanding between James and Sirius but also to show that Peter did irritate the others to some extent. He never really fit in with them.
It may have been intended to show that, but friends tease each other like that all the time.

I don't think Peter was as close to James and sirius as Lupin was. There isn't any proof of this in the books, it's just the impression i get. I think that at the beginning when the four were in first year Peter probably just decided to hang around with the other three because (as it has been said) they were the cool kids! I think he was seen as more of a side kick than as a friend. When Sirius gives out to Peter for applauding James as he plays with his snitch he says "Put that away, will you before Wormtail wets himself with excitment". I believe this line was included not only to highlight the significant understanding between James and Sirius but also to show that Peter did irritate the others to some extent. He never really fit in with them.

his self-esteem went down again because he wasn't doing anything cool and exciting like the other Marauders, he still wanted to make himself heard, and maybe prove something to himself.

For Peter i don't think it was about making himself heard. It was more his thirst for power that encouraged him to betray his friends. He finds his courage through strength, influence and popularity which is why he is so dependent upon those he feels are better than him. His reaction to the hand Voldemort gave him shows his respect for anything strong. He likes to know he is safe, that he will be protected and may have a chance of becomnig what he has aspired to be since (as far as i can tell), his first year of Hogwarts: popular.

I don't know if Peter had a quest for power, he never seemed to pursue that in canon.

I think status more than power. But he may have wanted the reflected glory he might get by being associated with people with power. He certainly benefitted from reflected glory by being friends with James and Sirius. I don't think Remus brought him glory, although Remus had some respect, just because he was a Prefect.

I agree with the last two posts. Peter never struck me as the type that thirsted for power. Actually, I always figured Peter was the type that wanted to be protected by people who had power. Sirius did say in PoA that Peter was the type that wanted to be protected by the biggest bullies on the playground. I always interpreted Sirius' comment to mean that Peter was a follower, not a power-hungry leader.

I think status more than power. But he may have wanted the reflected glory he might get by being associated with people with power. He certainly benefitted from reflected glory by being friends with James and Sirius. I don't think Remus brought him glory, although Remus had some respect, just because he was a Prefect.

I agree with the last two posts. Peter never struck me as the type that thirsted for power. Actually, I always figured Peter was the type that wanted to be protected by people who had power. Sirius did say in PoA that Peter was the type that wanted to be protected by the biggest bullies on the playground. I always interpreted Sirius' comment to mean that Peter was a follower, not a power-hungry leader.

I agree. I don't think it was a question of power, but rather a question of what best suited his desires. When the war started, the dark side seemed to be winning, and, Peter being the selfish rat he was, decided to position himself so that he wouldn't be killed by the dark side for being so close to a powerhouse (the Order) for the Light side. I don't really think Peter was, evil shall we say. I doubt he wanted his friends dead. He was just a weak, selfish buggar who got sucked in by the dark. A weak person taken advantage of and ruled by fear. Don't get me wrong though, I hold no sympathy for him. What Peter did was unforgivable.

I agree. I don't think it was a question of power, but rather a question of what best suited his desires. When the war started, the dark side seemed to be winning, and, Peter being the selfish rat he was, decided to position himself so that he wouldn't be killed by the dark side for being so close to a powerhouse (the Order) for the Light side. I don't really think Peter was, evil shall we say. I doubt he wanted his friends dead. He was just a weak, selfish buggar who got sucked in by the dark. A weak person taken advantage of and ruled by fear. Don't get me wrong though, I hold no sympathy for him. What Peter did was unforgivable.

Do we really know why Peter turned to the dark side?

Do we really know why Peter turned to the dark side?

He tells Sirius and Remus that he was afraid of Voldemort. If Lily and James were approached by Death Eaters we can assume that the same happened to Peter. I still think it strange that Voldemort would have tried to recruit a Muggle-born witch but I suppose stranger things happened. :lol: We don't know a lot about Peter's background but it's apparently not as important as many of us thought pre-DH.

How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?

I think perhaps Peter wanted to have the same kind of close relationship with James and Sirius. Peter wanted to be in with that and I think was envious of them and that made him more eager to try and please them. Remus on the other hand, I don't think he minded. I think he was content with the friendship level that he received.

James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?

I think it could be viewed as both. By becoming Animagus they made sure that Remus didn't have to face every full moon alone and that he had a group of friends with him. However, for James and Sirius I think the element of danger and adventure was what appealed to them, initially.

James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?

I doubt that they were hurt. They knew that Sirius was James' best friend and at the end of the day that he would choose him.

Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?

I don't think they'd forgive him. He made the ultimate betrayal of trust and friendship and what he did was complete cowardice. I don't think Peter deserves to be forgiven.

Remus had some self-esteem issues, at times, but I think he always found ways to get over them. He didn't like being a werewolf, but his friends made it so much better by becoming Animagi. Self-esteem wasn't reall an issue for him later, when he and the others were all really close and they supported him. Peter, on the other hand, had self-esteem problems for only one reason: he always seemed a lot more weak and pathetic than his friends, who were the typical "cool kids" at school. That had to have annoyed him a lot.

This is an excellent point. Remus, at least when he was younger and the Daily Prophet hadn't put into print his "furry little problem," seemed to have no problem gaining the respect and trust of those around him. People like him, even many people who know about his lycanthropy. While we don't see much of Peter, I think it is safe to assume that he was liked because of his association with his three friends, not for any real merit of his own. I do think the other Marauders saw real worth in him, even if the relationship was slightly condescending, but that outside pressure to be "better" would have caused problems. Even his own awareness (or just perception) that his friends were better/stronger/smarter/cooler/more attractive/etc. can't have been a confidence booster.

This post was originally in the Harry Potter: Character Analysis thread.

No I don't believe the comparison is flawed, because I think Harry treated his friends far better than James and Sirius treated Peter.

Peter was weak, he was a sycophant and for 7 years the other 3 Marauders displayed appalling lack of judgement towards a boy whom they thought was a dear friend?? And that poor judgement got one killed, one in Azkaban for 13 years and one reduced to absolute poverty.

James and Sirius were poor friends? Where did that judgment come from? Peter wasn’t as strong as the Marauders I agree, but are you suggesting that they should have judged their friend for not being nearly as capable as they are? To not trust him based on his inferior intelligence?

And I disagree that the mistake in trusting Peter left Remus in poverty. Remus was already poor before, thanks to the Wizarding world’s prejudice against werewolves.

Where I think Lily falls down in my estimation is in her comparison in my mind to Hermione. I think Jo showed us the two girls, who were essentially on the side of the Light, but where both the girls’ friendship had a remarkable effect on the said friends.

I respect your opinion, but I don’t see a strong comparison between the two. Hermione and Lily were placed in completely different circumstances and had different friendships. Hermione was friend with Harry and Ron, two people she loved dearly and didn’t associate themselves with the Dark Arts or Voldemort. Lily, on the other hand, loved her best friend Snape, but he associated himself with the Dark Arts and aspired to join a group that aimed to kill people like herself.

Lily, I think chose between James between Snape and James and broke off with one because she chose the other.

Wait, since when were James and Snape the only people in her life? There were so many other people in her year she could have gotten with in the end. Actually, she could have gotten with anyone else in the world – Muggle or not – and ended up with them. I do not see any indication that Lily’s choice was between James and Snape. Her choice to marry James had nothing to do with Snape, IMO, and there isn’t any canon that supports the claim that Lily chose between the two of them.

It was only when she started crushing on James, Snape's character suddenly seemed unacceptable to her.

I disagree. Lily clearly said in DH that she had been making excuses for Snape for years. It’s quite plain that she disapproved of Snape’s actions before she fancied James, whenever that happened. I do not see any canon that says her romantic feelings for James had anything to do with her decision to break off her friendship with Snape.

I personally find that uncomfortable. It did not show to me Lily in a good light where she spurns all that is bad, but in a bad light where she is not standing by a sinking friend after she starts crushing on James.

So what should Lily have done – still remain friends with Snape? He was doing things for years that bothered her, and she should drop that all and ignore it? She should have kept on being friends with the person that wanted to be apart of a group that threatened the lives of her family and herself? Lily should have remained friends with her “best friend” that associated himself with the Dark Arts, something that went against her values? She should have continued being friends that threw prejudicial slurs at people that were just like her? I am the same age as Lily is, and had I been in Lily’s place I would have done the same thing. I do not see how breaking off a friendship with someone that is fighting for the wrong side is bad in any way.

Second, what do Lily’s feelings have to do with anything? She couldn’t help it that she had a crush on James.

and I include Lily in this as well, once she started going out with James

Lily had bad judgment when she dated James? I don't understand what you're trying to say, could you please clarify? :)