The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black

A poster a few pages back wrote how it was likely that the Black family had arranged marriages between their offspring. This may still be in existence. Probably Draco is engaged(or supposed to get married) to Pansy Parkinson, since they have always hung out together. So, who were Sirius and Regulas going to marry? The Blacks had fewer people to choose from. And was Lucius Malfoy supposed to marry Narcissa? It seems that he was the right age to be engaged to either her or Andromeda. ( Though suprisingly, I thought, Narcissa did seem to care about her husband, as shown in HBP)How much choice would they have in the matter? If Andromeda married a muggleborn instead of a pureblood, (like maybe Lucius) that could also have been like a rejection( I can see this,actually, I would have married a tree if it got me away from Lucius...).
Another thing that interests me is Mrs. Longbottoms opinion of the Weasleys. She obviously respects them, which would mean she is not as strict as other members of her family(ie the Blacks).
any other thoughts?

Maybe love potions make arranged marriages more "tolerable."

I was thinking about this earlier, and I agree with Whizbang that love potions were probably used by the Blacks and other dark wizards to "make it work" in the arranged marriages. It's insidious, but I think we get the message from the canon just how these potions can be misused. :(

Septimus: seventh...

The Lexicon has listed a Roman emporer 'Severus', listed under Snape...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingwidgit
The Roman Emperor, Lucius Septimius Severus, is known for defeating Niger and Albinus. {Black and White---Albus?}


Just thought that was interesting. Lucius---Septimius---Severus, all together like that.
My first reaction is that if Severus is related to the Black family, it may be through some Weasley connection, but we still don't have enough information.

All the Roman references in HBP truly prove Inkwolf's "Snape and Septimus Severus" connection, even down to the death of Albus. The Emperor Severus killed or at least "overthrew" Albius, and before that, Niger (as in "Black").

Also, Septimus Severus died in York, and we see lots of clues that Spinner's End is in Yorkshire, from the tall chimney like an "admonitory finger" to the idea of "spinning" as in the textile industry.

I was talking to a poster named Kelpie on the Development of Snape's Character thread the other day who wrote about a place called "Dungeon Wood" in Yorkshire. I discovered that the writer Ted Hughes was from Mytholmroyd, Yorkshire. He wrote the famous poem "The Thoughtfox," one of my personal favorites, and that reminds me of Chapter 2, also. I think it's a direct reference to Ted Hughes, actually. :tu:
Kelpie's posts are Here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3544028#post3544028) and Here ( http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=3547295&postcount=744)

I found a picture of a place called Hebden Bridge that looks just like Spinner's End to me. The river you see is the "Rochdale Canal." My son suggested everyone should just imagine the Dementor Mist, and then you can see it better. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Snape%20in%20Yorkshire/07hebdenbridgewithtower.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Snape%20in%20Yorkshire/05hebden-rochdale.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Snape%20in%20Yorkshire/02hebden_bridge.jpg

I still can't believe that James turned out to be related to the Blacks! Why didn't Sirius ever tell Harry this pertinent information? That is why Harry's grandparents were so keen to tkae Sirius in, they were blood! Also, isn't it freaky that the Longbottoms also have a blood connection to the blacks?! That makes Harry and Neville cousins as well. My question is how will the prophecy continue to link these two together?

I still can't believe that James turned out to be related to the Blacks! Why didn't Sirius ever tell Harry this pertinent information? That is why Harry's grandparents were so keen to take Sirius in, they were blood! Also, isn't it freaky that the Longbottoms also have a blood connection to the blacks?! That makes Harry and Neville cousins as well. My question is how will the prophecy continue to link these two together?
It's really not surprising at all, because of things JKR has told us in the books:

Neville is a Pureblood, but Voldemort chose to attack his "equal" - Half-Blood Harry.

James was a Pureblood, according to Lupin in HBP when Harry wonders if James was the HBP.

Sirius is a Pureblood, and he has said the Blacks considered themselves "royalty." Therefore, in the past, other Pureblood families would have wanted to make connections to them.

Sirius also says that nearly all the Pureblood families are related in some way, or they would have died out. :tu:

Neville and Harry would be only very distant cousins.

In a system where everyone is related given enough jumps across the tree, I'd say it was logical for people to start discounting familial ties when you started getting further away than immediate relatives. Otherwise just think of all those Christmas cards you'd be obliged to send!

silver_ink_pot, I really like those pictures!

However, it seems pretty unlikely several 13-year-olds would get away with claiming they were 21, 18 or even 16 when they married.Ageing potion? :D

Seriously, I don't think JKR ever claimed that this tree was anything more than a sketch (I'm sure someone here knows if I'm wrong). She probably simply didn't finish working out all birth dates, and notoriously timelines aren't her strongest point anyway.

Seriously, I don't think JKR ever claimed that this tree was anything more than a sketch (I'm sure someone here knows if I'm wrong). She probably simply didn't finish working out all birth dates, and notoriously timelines aren't her strongest point anyway.

Ooh let's hope so. The Black clan looks too small if we were to judge objectively by the tree. And according to OotP it's supposed to reach at least into the Middle Ages.

I still can't believe that James turned out to be related to the Blacks! Why didn't Sirius ever tell Harry this pertinent information? That is why Harry's grandparents were so keen to tkae Sirius in, they were blood! Also, isn't it freaky that the Longbottoms also have a blood connection to the blacks?! That makes Harry and Neville cousins as well.

Actually, we don't know if they're related by blood or not. We don't know if Neville is descended from Harfang Longbottom, and we don't know if Harry is descended from Charlus Potter (the idea that Dorea and Charlus are Harry's grandparents does not fit with canon, unless JKR has made a big mistake). It's likely that he's related to them through marriage only, and if there are any blood relations, you'd have to go back even more generations to find them, to the point that it becomes irrelevent (which it almost is now - Harry and Neville would be very distant cousins).

By the way, Dan Radcliffe has won the complete family tree. Lucky git. ;)

I was surprised. But it makes sense and helps a little to see how the choice of going to the "dark side" is up to you, doesn't it? I mean, if you look at the House of Black you can see how they're divided in Voldemort's side and the other side. Even in Sirius's family. He was the only one who refussed to join Riddle. And therefore he was banished from his own family. But he had had the same education as his brother. And he make his choice.:)

Hello! Just some random things I found concerning names on the Black family tree. They weren't necessarily JKR's inspiration, but I found some stuff that might be interesting or help us see if there's any super-special hidden meanings behind the names.
Some credit to wikipedia.org and babynames.com

Walpurga (Sirius' mum) - St Walpurga is the patron of, amongst other things, Dog Bites, Mad Dogs and Rabies (Her son, the dog star :lol: )

Lucretia (Sirius' aunt on his father's side) - The name means 'rich, wealthy', and Lucretia was a mythical figure in Roman history. She was assualted by a son of a man called Lucius and called the menfolk together and told them what had happened. She then killed herself, and they were forced to avenge her.
I don't see a connection to HP here, but the name drop of Lucius suggests that JKR might have been researching Lucius and stumbled across the name Lucretia (?).

Lycoris (Sirius' great uncle on his father's side) - Lycoris means 'twilight', which would be pretty fitting considering a lot of the Blacks are named after constellations. EDIT - Lycoris was probably an 'Aunt' rather than uncle...silly me :rolleyes:

Cygnus (Belltrix's, Andormeda's and Narcissa's father) - Cygnus is latin for swan, and is known as Ptolemy's constellation, or the Northern cross. Mores stars, I see. :)

Cassiopeia (Sirius' maternal aunt) - Cassiopeia is another constellation, but she was also a greek goddess. She boasted of her beauty to her sisters, who were annoyed because it was something she was born with, not something she'd worked hard for. She was also the Queen who stopped a wave of Posiedon's and so had to give up her daughter Andromeda to be sacrificed as punishment.
Of course, her daughter was rescued, but Cassiopeia was still unpunished. She was brought up to Olympus on her throne, and Aphrodite asked her what she used to make her beauty creams. She told Aphrodite her secrets in exchange for the punishment to be dropped, and Aphrodite asked for her to become a Goddess and she was made one - Goddess of the seas and fantasies.
In the BFT it says that Cassiopeia was unmarried. I wonder if Sirius gets his good looks from his aunt Cassiopeia?

Hester (Sirius's great grandmother on his father's side) - The name simply means 'Star'.

Well, that's all I could find. I hope it was a little interesting, even if it's not relevent in the way JKR meant it to be. :)

...Lucretia (Sirius' aunt on his father's side) - The name means 'rich, wealthy', and Lucretia was a mythical figure in Roman history. She was assualted by a son of a man called Lucius and called the menfolk together and told them what had happened. She then killed herself, and they were forced to avenge her.
I don't see a connection to HP here, but the name drop of Lucius suggests that JKR might have been researching Lucius and stumbled across the name Lucretia (?).Just another thing to add to Lucretia - it would seem to be the anglicized version of Lucrezia - as in Lucrezia Borgia, the famed beauty who married into the d'Este family (the ruling party of Modena for centuries). The truth about the historical Lucrezia is not really known, however she was supposedly part of her family's (her father and brother) machevillian plots for power in Renaissance Italy. Her reputation has come down the centuries to be known not only as a beauty, but as a sexual decadent and poisoner. The truth however is not known - but her legend sounds good for the Black family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_Borgia

Just another thing to add to Lucretia - it would seem to be the anglicized version of Lucrezia - as in Lucrezia Borgia, the famed beauty who married into the d'Este family (the ruling party of Modena for centuries). The truth about the historical Lucrezia is not really known, however she was supposedly part of her family's (her father and brother) machevillian plots for power in Renaissance Italy. Her reputation has come down the centuries to be known not only for beauty, but sexual decadence. Part of the rumors around her was that she was a poisoner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_Borgia

Ah, I was looking a a different page on wiki, then :lol: but fundimentaly they were both famous for being part of a revolution. This is all interesting...I wonder if Lucrecia was a 'poisoner', whether in terms of poison substances or poison words? I wouldn't put it past the Black family! :lol:

Lycoris (Sirius' great uncle on his father's side) - Lycoris means 'twilight', which would be pretty fitting considering a lot of the Blacks are named after constellations.Thanks for this...Lycoris is feminine, though, not masculine, and is Greek for 'twilight'...ProfLupin also discovered that Lycoris is a poisonous plant species---spider lilies. Beautifully delicate flowers...when in full bloom they look either like spiders on their backs, or crouching spiders.

Gurdy root, SIP? :tu:
http://www.sue.shiga-u.ac.jp/WWW/kosyo/c-news/higan.gif
My first reaction is that if Severus is related to the Black family, it may be through some Weasley connection, but we still don't have enough information.Love the pics, those are fantastic.

I agree we still don't have enough info, but another curiosity that just struck me is that Septimus and Lucius both appear on the right side of the tapestry...coincidence, I know, but still curious...I wonder if a Severus is lurking somewhere just out of sight?

Thanks for this...Lycoris is feminine, though, not masculine,

Why on Earth did I assume it was a man? I guess I must of thought it looked masculine... :rolleyes:

...I agree we still don't have enough info, but another curiosity that just struck me is that Septimus and Lucius both appear on the right side of the tapestry...coincidence, I know, but still curious...I wonder if a Severus is lurking somewhere just out of sight?I'm going to post a supposition I made over on Dev of Sev that might show HOW the tree affects Snape without him even being ON the tree. WARNING - ALL SUPPOSITION - NOT CANON! The supposition is at the end.

...Re: The Tapestry dates--The thing that strikes me the most odd about these grandparents beginning parenthood so young, is wondering whether they were attending Hogwarts at the time???Apparently - one of the dates WAS wrong and has been corrected. Arcturus (Sirius' paternal grandfather) did not have HIS first child (Lucretia) until 1925 (making him 24 at the time instead of 14).

Considering that 1925 was also the same year that Pollux supposedly had his Walburga as well as the year before Phineas died - I suspect that at least Pollux's early fatherhood will be explained by a will that Phineas intended for #12 to go to whichever grandson had the first son. It's quite possible for Pollux to have finagled his way towards being his grandfather's favorite at the time since he WAS at Hogwarts at the time with his grandfather Phineas the headmaster.

Whether that ended up being Pollux or Arcturus we don't know since we don't know what year Alphard was born.

From Albus' explanation of Black tradition, the house SHOULD have gone to Arcturus as the eldest son of Phineas' eldest son.

However - that doesn't cover the 'mother's house' comment made by Snape (since Sirius' mother dies before either of Sirius' grandfathers).

So - I THINK there's a possibility that Pollux was the one to inherit #12 and that he did it by having a son (Alphard) before Arcturus. Which I suppose would be considered a good enough reason by his father (who was a youngest son and therefore VERY unlikely to get the house by tradtion) to marry him off as soon as he COULD father a child, trying to beat out Arcturus to having a son.

not canon - pure supposition - but would explain several things:

1) it would put the house in the MATERNAL line - explaining Snape's 'mother's house' comment and also the arranging of marriage between Orion and Walburga to get the house back into HIS line (since it would go to his descendents)

2) it would give an historically valid reason (inheritence) for such a young marriage and fatherhood, instead of it just being an accident.

3) it also gives a reason why Sirius thought he could give the house to Harry instead of following Black tradition - because he knew that Black tradition in regards to the house had already been broken before.
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The big question to me is still HOW does Snape know the house came down Sirius' MOTHER's line? Was it common knowledge to the wizarding world? Were Eileen and Walburga school friends at Hogwarts (timing seems wrong for that)? Were Orion and Eileen school chums (better timing)? Did Regulus tell Snape the whole story when THEY were at school together? And WHY does it MATTER?

It pretty much forces Orion and Walburga to marry - but why is THAT important? I liked it much better when we thought it might affect Snape in some manner - but I don't see a reason for it to matter anymore.

SUPPOSITION ALERT! I suppose there's always the possibility that Orion and Eileen were dating??? That Snape feels that if it weren't for the house, he would have been born to pureblood Orion Black instead of muggle Tobias Snape? That perhaps Sirius hated Snape because Orion loved Eileen?? instead of his own mother??

I'd feel a little better about this IF Eileen had been pretty (maybe she was - all we know is that she scowled and looked sullen - that might affect her looks) or if we knew when the marriages took place. Neither Eileen nor Orion had a kid until close to 1959 or 1960 - almost 12 years after finishing school. So impossible to tell who married when or even first. It would be interesting if Snape blamed Orion Black for his being stuck with Tobias Snape as a father.

OMG!

In researching Lycoris, I stumbled across this:

http://www.brilliantdreams.com/images/bottle_dreams_side_nav.jpg
Brilliant Dreams is based on the FDA Approved natural herbal extract from the bulb of the Red Spider Lily plant. The Red Spider Lily (Lycoris radiata) is native to China and Japan. In the wild, this medicinal herb is most likely to be found in clusters on the ridge of rice fields, in meadows, and along river banks. It blooms in the fall. Although the flowers are beautiful, it is the bulb that provides the medicinal herbal extract galantamine.

The red spider lily is sometimes called the hurricane lily or magic lily and has become a popular addition to gardens in the southern United States.
===========

It's touted as a dream enhancer...

Well, galantamine is the key ingredient in Reminyl...a powerful drug used to calm Alzheimer's patients.

SUPPOSITION ALERT! I suppose there's always the possibility that Orion and Eileen were dating??? That Snape feels that if it weren't for the house, he would have been born to pureblood Orion Black instead of muggle Tobias Snape? That perhaps Sirius hated Snape because Orion loved Eileen?? instead of his own mother??



Sirius already hated both his parents so I don't think he cared if his parents loved each other or not.

Does the name Walbura remind anyone esle of the Knights of Walpurgis?

On a different subject, has anyone got any ideas about where Araminta Meliflua might fit on the tree? The only candidates for a parent of hers are Cassiopeia (but she would have had to marry another Black for her children to get on the tree) and Marius (the burnt Squib). I can't see her being the child of a sibling of Irma Crabbe's since they wouldn't get on a Black tree.

She could be the daughter of Lycoris Black or Regulus I Black if you fudge things a little bit.

Also, notice that Draco Malfoy is on the tree while his mother, not his father, was a Black. It is entirely possible that the full tree includes the Black-line descendants in the Crouch, Longbottom, Potter and Burke families that simply aren't on the version at the Lexicon.

Does the name Walbura remind anyone esle of the Knights of Walpurgis?Yes - the 'holiday' St Walpurgis day is actually based on the day they moved St. Walburga's grave (I suppose they were moving her remains because she was declared a saint and so deserved a better resting place?). It just so happens that it was on the same day as a pagan festival (probably on purpose - the church often overlaid christian 'days' on top of pagan ones) that somehow supported taking cows back to pasture and burning bonfires to keep the witches at bay. So, 'St. Walburga's day' became pronunced 'St. Walpurgis day' and the knights is a play on St. Walpurgis Night - when the witches all came out.

Yes - the 'holiday' St Walpurgis day is actually based on the day they moved St. Walburga's grave (I suppose they were moving her remains because she was declared a saint and so deserved a better resting place?). It just so happens that it was on the same day as a pagan festival (probably on purpose - the church often overlaid christian 'days' on top of pagan ones) that somehow supported taking cows back to pasture and burning bonfires to keep the witches at bay. So, 'St. Walburga's day' became pronunced 'St. Walpurgis day' and the knights is a play on St. Walpurgis Night - when the witches all came out.
That's interesting, because didn't JKR originally plan to call the Death Eaters "The Knight's of Walpurgis"? That's what my "Magical World of Harry Potter" book says. :shrug: It also notes that Walpurgis Night is on the 30th April, 6 months after Halloween (when Harry's parents were killed). Probably just coincidental with the dates, but I just thought I'd mention it. :p

And carrying on the name meanings conversation - according to this article (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamily.html)on the Lexicon, Dorea is found in, well, poo.........I wonder why JKR decided to call one of Harry's relatives that?! :scared::lol:

I'd feel a little better about this IF Eileen had been pretty (maybe she was - all we know is that she scowled and looked sullen - that might affect her looks) or if we knew when the marriages took place. Neither Eileen nor Orion had a kid until close to 1959 or 1960 - almost 12 years after finishing school. So impossible to tell who married when or even first. It would be interesting if Snape blamed Orion Black for his being stuck with Tobias Snape as a father.
To add to the supposition, we don't know Eileen's age. We know that the book was dated about fifty years previous as of HBP {1996)---would be 1946.

Assuming curriculum hadn't changed and the book has been used for 6th year students for the past fifty years, this means Eileen would have been 6th year in 1946, which puts her at the school during the correct time.

Or it could have been purchased for her second-hand, much like the Weasley's purchased their books. Which really throws a spanner into the works.

This would mean anytime from 1946 forward...Snape was born 1959-1960. If his mother was born in say 1940, she'd have been 19-20 when Snape was born. Which would put her in 6th year 1956-57, and she of course wouldn't have attended school with either Riddle, Walburga, or Orion.

There are just so many unknown variables, it's a bit frustrating really.

And carrying on the name meanings conversation - according to this article on the Lexicon, Dorea is found in, well, poo.........I wonder why JKR decided to call one of Harry's relatives that?!
This explains Dung and U-NO-POO!

A nice tie-in to the burned off Weasley!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mia305
And carrying on the name meanings conversation - according to this article on the Lexicon, Dorea is found in, well, poo.........I wonder why JKR decided to call one of Harry's relatives that?!
This explains Dung and U-NO-POO!

A nice tie-in to the burned off Weasley!
Eek! Burning Dung! :scared: (Waves away the odor of ammonia. Blech!)

Did she have a twin sister named "Urea"? :evil:

I think it has to do with the fact that JKR doesn't think too highly of the Pureblood side of things, you know?

I read on MuggleNet that Daniel Radcliffe and his mother bought the handwritten copy of the Black Family Tree. Will Dan share it with us? If anyone finds it online, please share it with us and send me an OWL. Thanks.

Where is everyone seeing the Black Family tree at?

Anyone notice that Reg and Orion both died in 79. That could be one of the "clues" on the tree. If Reg is RAB and presumably died maybe his father was with him on his little potion trip. Or maybe Orion died instead of him giving Reg extra time for something.

Where is everyone seeing the Black Family tree at?Here (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamilytree.html) is a link to the HP Lexicon where a copy of the family tree can be seen.

Anyone notice that Reg and Orion both died in 79. That could be one of the "clues" on the tree. If Reg is RAB and presumably died maybe his father was with him on his little potion trip. Or maybe Orion died instead of him giving Reg extra time for something.I agree. That both father and son died in the same year (even though we don't have any indication of the date) is very curious!

Wolfden - here is the most updated version. It's based on someone from Mugglenet (called Aberforth) going to the auction viewing and copying down notes. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamilytree.html

I read on MuggleNet that Daniel Radcliffe and his mother bought the handwritten copy of the Black Family Tree. Will Dan share it with us? If anyone finds it online, please share it with us and send me an OWL. Thanks.
Daniel bought it with his own money; his mother just represented him because he wasn’t able to go to the auction . He also bought two other things by authors he likes. I doubt Dan will share it online, not that it matters, just go to the link that has the replica i dont think its any diffrent then Dan's except his is handwritten by Jo, orignal copy

I wonder if Sirius parents had an arranged marriage or if they actual did have a thing for each other. I wonder how many arranged marriage the Purebloods had/have. We know that those who didn’t marry purebloods clearly married for Love, I’m not saying that Two purebloods wouldn’t love each other and want to marry,(i.e. Arthur and Molly) but I just wonder how many married the spouse strictly due to them being a pureblood and if families ever arranged anything. I dont think its true love if you said I love you but if your werent pureblood i wouldnt love you.

just go to the link that has the replica i dont think its any diffrent then Dan's except his is handwritten by Jo, orignal copy
There were five lines of text at the bottom of the original (plus the seven to the right of it; those seven explained the blast holes). So far, I haven't seen anyone say what those five lines of text contained...maybe they aren't important, but I'm still curious about them! :D

I wonder if Sirius parents had an arranged marriage or if they actual did have a thing for each other. I wonder how many arranged marriage the Purebloods had/have. We know that those who didn’t marry purebloods clearly married for Love, I’m not saying that Two purebloods wouldn’t love each other and want to marry,(i.e. Arthur and Molly) but I just wonder how many married the spouse strictly due to them being a pureblood and if families ever arranged anything. I dont think its true love if you said I love you but if your werent pureblood i wouldnt love you.

Hard to say ... my guess is that Sirius's parents weren't in an arranged marriage. Second cousins isn't really a close relation, and it could be that they just fell in love, end of story. The Blacks don't seem to quite have the Gaunt mentality - not only do the Gaunts have to remain pure wizard blood, but they have to remain pure Slytherin blood, which means constantly marrying their first cousins through the generations. By the time we get down to Morfin, that has caused some genetic problems. The Blacks don't seem to be as manic as that ... although I can imagine that the very idea of a Black marrying a Muggle-born would be a burned-off-the-tapestry offence. Walburga at least doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would even consider marrying a Muggle-born.

I think it is kind of weird that Sirius could come from such a bad family. All of those evil people in one family! WOW!!!!!

There were five lines of text at the bottom of the original (plus the seven to the right of it; those seven explained the blast holes). So far, I haven't seen anyone say what those five lines of text contained...maybe they aren't important, but I'm still curious about them!
Actually, it's quoted in the pic provided by the Lexicon---Key {removed from the tree}...though I'd love to see it in written form, as JK provided it:
Isla Black, who 'married muggle Bob Hitchens'.
Phineus, who 'supported muggle rights'.
Marius, 'a squib'.
Cedrella, who 'married Septimus Weasley'.
Alphard, who 'gave gold to his runaway nephew'.
Sirius, who 'ran away'.
Andromeda, who 'married muggle Ted Tonks'.

Actually, it's quoted in the pic provided by the Lexicon---Key {removed from the tree}...
So what do those 5 lines say? I know what the seven lines describe (the key), I'm not talking about those. Those seven were at the bottom left; I would like to know what the five lines in the middle said...

There is so much to say about the Black family heritage, and the significance of Sirius coming from such a family, not to mention that he was related to the Malfoys, Tonks and Molly. What do people think?

I think that that does have somewhat of a signifigance maybe it will play a part ( all of them being related) in the last book maybe since the people on he dark side are going to realize they are killing their own flesh and blook and with that killing themselfs? Who knows

So what do those 5 lines say? I know what the seven lines describe (the key), I'm not talking about those. Those seven were at the bottom left; I would like to know what the five lines in the middle said...Actually, I thought the seven typed lines of the legend was the 13 written lines of the key.

Maybe the Lexicon can confirm/deny this?

Maybe the Lexicon can confirm/deny this?Well, it would be nice if they could. The report by Aberforth didn't mention the additional lines of text. But even in the blurry Italian photo, they look to be of different "font" size than the seven numbered lines to the left (I know it's handwritten and "font" isn't quite the right word!) with more space between the lines (ooo, bad pun for this document...). There is a gap between the seven numbered lines and the five in the middle...they just don't look like any kind of continuation of the blast hole explanations. [Maybe I am making much ado about nothing and they are just copyright lines or something...]

Second cousins isn't really a close relation.
Well id say second cousin is too close to wed, especially when they probably grew up knowing each other as cousins

They said Ted Tonks was muggle born it said that the book, either way Tonks Mother was blasted off for that reason, which we already knew. Sirius isn’t a blood relative of Molly, but he is with Tonks and the Malfoy family at least Draco and his mother

Well I think Lucius and Narcissa love each other. Fiendish or not. And Draco loves both of them. I don't know about Walpurga and Orion. Who knows. Also ewww Phineas is Sirius' Great great grandpa on both sides.

Septimius Weasley, Lucius Malfy, Severus (Pri nce) Snape. HMMM!

The name constelation indicates that the Weasley, the Malyfoys and the Princes´ could be interelated somehow.

Also ewww Phineas is Sirius' Great great grandpa on both sides.:lol: :no: :lol: Indeed! I was noticing that myself earlier... (kinda reminds me of Lord of the Rings: Aragorn's ancester is Arwens's uncle!) And was I just hallucinating or was there a mention (on the Harry Potter Lexicon) of a Prince and a Malfoy being related way waay back?

And was I just hallucinating or was there a mention (on the Harry Potter Lexicon) of a Prince and a Malfoy being related way waay back?Would be fine, if you can find it again. I think much people assume there's some deeper connection between both.

I find it interesting that the one we know nearly next to nothing about is a squib on the Black family tree. Is there anything in the books that indicate what happened to Marius Black. Is she still alive, did she get married and if so did she have children. Could this be Snape's father as he is a half blood prince and his mother was a witch hence the potion book belonging to her.

This could be wrong though as I am not very good with family trees. It could explain though why Snape would want to join the death eaters as most are Blacks. Snape might have wanted at first to be a part of that family tree and may have believed that by joining the death eaters he could be respected by his family.

Hello Tane,

Marius is a boy´s name, not a girl´s name. Snape´s papa was or is a Muggle. His name is Tobias Snape.

Cheers

Hello Tane,

Marius is a boy´s name, not a girl´s name. Snape´s papa was or is a Muggle. His name is Tobias Snape.

CheersYes I was talking about it being his father not his mother but your right, I forgot about Tobias as that was Snape's father (this art work is making it harder for me to remember things already stated, ahhh...). So this still leaves a mysterious squib named Marius who might still be alive and who has hardly been mentioned who has had there named blasted from the tapestry. I am wondering whether we shall meet Marius in the next the book though introducing a new character in the final book might be too much. Perhaps he is just not that important.

Marius is another Roman connection: Gaius Marius was a general and politician noted for reforming the Roman army and political system. He was against the aristocracy having too much power :wow:.

Well id say second cousin is too close to wed, especially when they probably grew up knowing each other as cousins


Well, I don't know - first cousin marriages are perfectly legal in Britain, and genetically, the problems of cousins proctreating have been grotesquely exaggerated over the years. There is only a 3% more chance of the kids having mental or physical illness with first-cousins than there is with the general population. By the time you get down to second- and third-cousins, it's practically the same as having kids with someone from the general population - the only dangers are if you both have a hereditary illness. The US is in fact the only country in the world which in any way forbids first-cousin marriages - and all those laws in those states are based on outdated 19th Century science which has since been proved incorrect. Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein both married their first-cousins, and both produced many healthy, intelligent and very successful children.

The wizarding population doesn't seem to have the stigma attached to it that a lot of people do, anyway. The trio had no problems with the idea of Tonks being in love with her first-cousin, Sirius, and if JKR has made a maths mistake and Dorea and Charlus are James's parents, that makes Harry and Ginny third-cousins by blood. Nobody seemed bothered about that, least of all JKR.

If Marius had kid's would they be wizards? And if so wouldn't no.12 belong to one of them. And even if they weren't one of his grandchildren (if he had any) could be a wizard which means the Black family could still come back.

Well, I don't know - first cousin marriages are perfectly legal in Britain, and genetically, the problems of cousins proctreating have been grotesquely exaggerated over the years. There is only a 3% more chance of the kids having mental or physical illness with first-cousins than there is with the general population. By the time you get down to second- and third-cousins, it's practically the same as having kids with someone from the general population - the only dangers are if you both have a hereditary illness. The US is in fact the only country in the world which in any way forbids first-cousin marriages - and all those laws in those states are based on outdated 19th Century science which has since been proved incorrect. Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein both married their first-cousins, and both produced many healthy, intelligent and very successful children.

First-cousin marriages aren't that problematic if it's done once. But if a family does it over and over again, over generations, with nobody else marrying into the family (like the Gaunts), it will cause problems.

The same goes for second- and third cousin marriages. If it's done over and over again, the gene-pool may degenerate eventually, because second cousins will genetically be more closely related than they normally are if the generations before them already kept marriages 'within the wider family'.

Yes I was talking about it being his father not his mother but your right, I forgot about Tobias as that was Snape's father (this art work is making it harder for me to remember things already stated, ahhh...). So this still leaves a mysterious squib named Marius who might still be alive and who has hardly been mentioned who has had there named blasted from the tapestry. I am wondering whether we shall meet Marius in the next the book though introducing a new character in the final book might be too much. Perhaps he is just not that important.Sirius was previously stated to be the last of the Blacks. He was also burned off the tapestry, yet he inherited 12 Grimmauld Place. Which means that were Marius still alive---not that I believe this---that he would inherit, despite being a squib and burned off the tapestry.

All this talk about Black family members marrying young (13 - 14), has anyone considered that the information on the Black Family Tree/Tapestry may be erroneous? :huh: Maybe JK Rowling is trying to make a point that the tapestry isn't very reliable with it's dates...

All this talk about Black family members marrying young (13 - 14), has anyone considered that the information on the Black Family Tree/Tapestry may be erroneous? :huh: Maybe JK Rowling is trying to make a point that the tapestry isn't very reliable with it's dates...Or that the tapestry is not as important as we all think, that it's function was to highlight Regulus. It is interesting though how the families are all connected in some way or form.

The only two main characters whose family does not appear to be linked to the tapestry is Snape and Dumbledore's family.

Or that the tapestry is not as important as we all think, that it's function was to highlight Regulus. It is interesting though how the families are all connected in some way or form.

The only two main characters whose family does not appear to be linked to the tapestry is Snape and Dumbledore's family....and the key word here is .....appear!

Or that the tapestry is not as important as we all think, that it's function was to highlight Regulus. It is interesting though how the families are all connected in some way or form.

The only two main characters whose family does not appear to be linked to the tapestry is Snape and Dumbledore's family.

There are a couple of others... McGonagall, for instance, and we've heard of other McGonagalls from the past. And Voldemort, of course, is not connected to the Blacks. Nor is the evidently very wealthy Smith family. Of course, that's only as far as we know. Go four more generations back and there's probably more connections.

Marius is another Roman connection: Gaius Marius was a general and politician noted for reforming the Roman army and political system. He was against the aristocracy having too much power :wow:.
I believe that is a male name, too.:tu:

I've been thinking about this "Squib in the House of Black" all day, and I keep thinking about why he was ever put on there at all. However, it could be they thought he was just slow, like Neville, and the parents were in denial that he was a squib.

Obviously, though, it is a tantalizing thing, and he could definitely have descendents. :agree:

There is a famous painter named "Marius Granet" who lived in France in the 1800s and painted landscapes and religious works. Here is a painting of him by Ingres - he looks like a Black, doesn't he?:
http://images.art.com/images/-/Jean-Ingres/Portrait-of-Francois-Marius-Granet-1775-1849-in-Rome--C11720512.jpeg

I've been thinking about this "Squib in the House of Black" all day, and I keep thinking about why he was ever put on there at all. However, it could be they thought he was just slow, like Neville, and the parents were in denial that he was a squib.
If he wasn't really a squib (like Neville), he should have gotten a letter from Hogwarts.

If he wasn't really a squib (like Neville), he should have gotten a letter from Hogwarts.Did we get a death date for him? Maybe he'll do magic late in life. Really late.

Well friends,

I never expected the Black Family Tree will turn out as "being a spoiler".
Anyway.

We have no Bones,no Princens´ and much more not on the tapestry. That could be a good sign.

Being related to the Blacks isn´t that great, that´s my opinion.

silver ink pot wrote
I've been thinking about this "Squib in the House of Black" all day, and I keep thinking about why he was ever put on there at all.
As far as we know it was the late mrs Black who went round blasting people off the tree. Perhaps her ancestors still had their sanity

There are a lot of things I do not get about the BFT.

Why so many underaged fathers?

How did Sirius's parents inherit Grimmaund Place? I always thought the house was from Mrs. Black's family (she calls it the house of her forefathers and Snape's comment about Sirius hidding in his mum's house). But why did she get the house? Her dad outlived her. And Dumbledore says that the house goes to male Blacks, so why didn't her brothers get the house? Andromeda's dad outlived her.

If the house was Mr. Black's then why did his dad give it to him while he was still alive? Why did Sirius say that his dad put protections on the house when he lived in it. If the house was Mr. Black's dad's then Sirius's dad always lived there. If both the grandfathers were alive, why did the house shut down after Mrs. Black died?

Why is Narcissa 3 or 4 years older than Sirius? Narcissa is the youngest of the Black sisters and Sirius is the eldest of the Black brothers. But Narcissa's dad is younger that Sirius's mum. It usually is the reverse in families.

The only two main characters whose family does not appear to be linked to the tapestry is Snape and Dumbledore's family.
We are also missing Fudge (who put a lot of emphasis on the importance of purity of blood, according to Dumbledore), Goyle (another of Malfoy's cronies), Parkinson (who Malfoy apparently has a thing for) and the current Minister for Magic Scrimgeour.
Why is Narcissa 3 or 4 years older than Sirius? Narcissa is the youngest of the Black sisters and Sirius is the eldest of the Black brothers. But Narcissa's dad is younger that Sirius's mum. It usually is the reverse in families.
Cygnus' (b. 1938) teenage marriage can explain that. Perhaps he would have inherited the house from Walburga eventually if he'd had a boy and she'd not had boys.

So, how old is Snape?

I doubt he made friends with Bellatrix in his first year (when she was in her seventh). If Bellatrix was born in 1951 and Narcissa in 1955, I find in to more logical to put Snape in 1956/1957 then in 1958. That would mean that Snape is a year or two younger then Narcissa and two or there years younger then Lucius. Along those lines, Snape would be 38/39, Narcissa 40 and Lucius 41 in OoTP.

Snape is the same age as Sirius, James, Wormtail and Lupin - we saw them all taking the DADA OWL exam in the Pensieve. Sirius went to Azkaban at around 22 years of age in 1981, therefore we're looking at around 1959 as being the year of birth for all of them.

Originally posted by RavenEye

Cygnus' (b. 1938) teenage marriage can explain that. Perhaps he would have inherited the house from Walburga eventually if he'd had a boy and she'd not had boys.

But why does the house not go into a "caretakership" with Cygnus after Walburga died? Why did she let the house go to rot? She never thought that Sirius would come out of Azkaban. So why did she not make arrangements once Sirius went to jail for life that the house would be taken care of by Cygnus?

Also, I still so not understand how either of Sirius's parents could have gotten the house if both their fathers were alive.

Also, I still do not understand how either of Sirius's parents could have gotten the house if both their fathers were alive.I don't understand it, either. Maybe there was more than one family house? Maybe this was the "lesser" property (or less desirable)? Maybe one of the wives inherited a family property that they moved to?

It has dawned on me that Charlie Weasley could actually be named after Charlus Potter. We know that Bill is probably named after his uncle Billius, so it would seem logical that Charlie is named after another wizard in the family. Cedrella who married Septimus was the cousin of Dorea who married Charlus. Cedrella could be Arthurs mother and perhaps had some influence in the naming of her grandchildren. It may even be possible that Cedrella and Septimus has a child of their own called Charlus, along with Billius and Arthur. We know that Ginny is short for Ginerva, do any of the other Weasleys have strange names?

Another point of interest is that there was once a roman emperor called Lucius Septimius Severus, which combines 3 names of the Harry Potter series.

I believe that is a male name, too.:tu:

I've been thinking about this "Squib in the House of Black" all day, and I keep thinking about why he was ever put on there at all. However, it could be they thought he was just slow, like Neville, and the parents were in denial that he was a squib.

Obviously, though, it is a tantalizing thing, and he could definitely have descendents. :agree:

There is a famous painter named "Marius Granet" who lived in France in the 1800s and painted landscapes and religious works. Here is a painting of him by Ingres - he looks like a Black, doesn't he?:
http://images.art.com/images/-/Jean-Ingres/Portrait-of-Francois-Marius-Granet-1775-1849-in-Rome--C11720512.jpegActually he does look a lot like Severus in your signature. Is it possible that Tobias is Marius after a change of name. I mean after being denounced by the family Marius might have felt inclined to give himself a new name and be rid of that family once and for all.

Edit: I found this about Marius:Roman family name which was derived either from MARS, the name of the Roman god of War, or else from the Latin root mas, maris meaning "male". Gaius Marius was a famous Roman consul of the 2nd century BC.Remember Mars reference about it being bright in the sky tonight. Also so might interest some on here: Tobias is Hebrew for God is good and might be a hint to which side Snape might actually be on.Greek form of TOBIAH. Tobias is the hero of the apocryphal Book of Tobit in the Old Testament. It relates how Tobias is able to defeat a demon with the help of the archangel Raphael.Long shot but is it possible that Tobias help RAB to get the locket in the cave. I have no evidence in canon though so it is very slim that this could have happened.

I believe that is a male name, too.:tu:

...
There is a famous painter named "Marius Granet" who lived in France in the 1800s and painted landscapes and religious works.

Marius isn't an unusual or very uncommon name. I don't think comparisons to historical Marius' based on the first name alone will get us very far.

Every Roman name ending in -us is male.

All this talk about Black family members marrying young (13 - 14), has anyone considered that the information on the Black Family Tree/Tapestry may be erroneous? Maybe JK Rowling is trying to make a point that the tapestry isn't very reliable with it's dates...
I'm sure those dates are wrong. But I don't think it's Jo's doing. Didn't she say once she wasn't going into teenage pregnancies? Why should she then have teenage fathers?

The 'teenage fathers' in question are:

- Pollux (1912-1990), father of Walburga (1925-1985)

- Cygnus (1938-1992), father of Bellatrix (1951?), Andromeda and Narcissa (1955)

I think the hand-writing may not have been that clear and Aberforth might have inferred the birth-dates of Walburga and Cygnus on the assumption that there's some sort of system to the arrangement of siblings on a line (left to right according to age). But imo it doesn't look like it. Walburga had to be placed left to draw the line of marriage to Orion, not because she's older than Cygnus.

If you look at the handwritten tree in La Reppubblica, the eights and the threes are hard to distinguish. I can't see it that clearly, but it's possible that the twos and threes are hard to tell apart too.

If we assume that Walburga was born in 1938, and Cygnus in 1935, their father would have been old enough.

The only problem remaining would be Bellatrix' date of birth. We got canon evidence however (Sirius statement about the married Lestranges in Snape's gang), that point at Bellatrix's birth date being 1953/4. Her father would still have been rather young, but 18 doesn't feel nearly as wrong as 13.

We'd have to assume that Andromeda is a twin sister of either Bellatrix or Narcissa. Let's assume she was born in 1955, and had Tonks at 18 or 19 in 1973/4. Tonks would have been 22 or 21 in OotP then, just the right age to be 4 years out of Hogwarts.

Sorry Aberforth. I'm glad you went there and made those notes. But I'd rather have you getting a few details wrong than thirteen-year-old dads on a regular basis in the wizarding world.:eyebrows:

Snape is the same age as Sirius, James, Wormtail and Lupin - we saw them all taking the DADA OWL exam in the Pensieve. Sirius went to Azkaban at around 22 years of age in 1981, therefore we're looking at around 1959 as being the year of birth for all of them.

If Sirius was 23/24 when he went to Azkaban, it would mean he was born in 1958/1957 which sounds more plausible to me.

It has dawned on me that Charlie Weasley could actually be named after Charlus Potter. We know that Bill is probably named after his uncle Billius, so it would seem logical that Charlie is named after another wizard in the family. Cedrella who married Septimus was the cousin of Dorea who married Charlus. Cedrella could be Arthurs mother and perhaps had some influence in the naming of her grandchildren. It may even be possible that Cedrella and Septimus has a child of their own called Charlus, along with Billius and Arthur. We know that Ginny is short for Ginerva, do any of the other Weasleys have strange names?

Another point of interest is that there was once a roman emperor called Lucius Septimius Severus, which combines 3 names of the Harry Potter series.

I was guessing the same thing- that Cedrella is Arthur's mother.
There must have been something about Septimus Weasley that the Blacks hated (maybe the fact they associated or intermarried with Muggles). This explains why Walburga screamed the loudest whenever the Weasleys were in 12GP. (well, she probably screamed just as much for Harry or Hermione or whomever, as well.) I will have to re-read and see if there is any significance to her name-calling ("Blood Traitors!" "Purveyors of Filth!" etc. etc.) to certain characters who were staying in the house. :p

About Lucius Septimus Severus, he is featured in the movie "Gladiator." He was the kid who was a fan of Maximus and was nice to him "I like you, Spaniard." He was portrayed as a nice kid, but again, I will have to read some history facts to see if he was good or evil as an emperor. Interesting that JKR used those names.

It has dawned on me that Charlie Weasley could actually be named after Charlus Potter. We know that Bill is probably named after his uncle Billius, so it would seem logical that Charlie is named after another wizard in the family. Cedrella who married Septimus was the cousin of Dorea who married Charlus. Cedrella could be Arthurs mother and perhaps had some influence in the naming of her grandchildren. It may even be possible that Cedrella and Septimus has a child of their own called Charlus, along with Billius and Arthur. We know that Ginny is short for Ginerva, do any of the other Weasleys have strange names?

Another point of interest is that there was once a roman emperor called Lucius Septimius Severus, which combines 3 names of the Harry Potter series.

'Bilius' is Ron's middle name, so I doubt it would be used as Bill's name too. I think Bill is simply short for William, or Billy. JKR herself said that the Weasleys called Ginny 'Ginevra' because they wanted something special for the only Weasley girl, which suggests that the names of their sons aren't anything particularly significant.

The other important piece of evidence about Cedrella and Septimus being Arthur's parents is JKR saying that Ginny was "a seventh child of a seventh child" - the name Septimus suggests that he is a seventh child.

It looks like the Weasley children's middle names do come from relatives: Ginny's is her mother's, Ron has his uncle's name. We find out that Percy's middle name is Ignatius - we see Ignatius Prewett on the tree, who is likely to be Molly's uncle. Bill is likely to have Arthur as a middle name. That leaves Charlie and the twins to take names of other relatives.

If their grandfathers' names are used then we'd expect one of the remaining Weasley children to have Septimus as a middle name.

The other important piece of evidence about Cedrella and Septimus being Arthur's parents is JKR saying that Ginny was "a seventh child of a seventh child" - the name Septimus suggests that he is a seventh child.

It looks like the Weasley children's middle names do come from relatives: Ginny's is her mother's, Ron has his uncle's name. We find out that Percy's middle name is Ignatius - we see Ignatius Prewett on the tree, who is likely to be Molly's uncle. Bill is likely to have Arthur as a middle name. That leaves Charlie and the twins to take names of other relatives.

If their grandfathers' names are used then we'd expect one of the remaining Weasley children to have Septimus as a middle name.Hmmm, George Septimus Weasley, Frederick Septimus Weasley, Charles Septimus Weasley. I think it might be Fred.

The other important piece of evidence about Cedrella and Septimus being Arthur's parents is JKR saying that Ginny was "a seventh child of a seventh child" - the name Septimus suggests that he is a seventh child.
I think they should have named Ginny "Ginevra Septima" Weasley. :lol:

Gosh, what if Molly was a seventh child, too? That would explain why Ginny is super-charged with powers. :)

Marius isn't an unusual or very uncommon name. I don't think comparisons to historical Marius' based on the first name alone will get us very far.
It's unusual in my world. :lol: You make it sound as if JKR is just opening the phone book to get these names, when nearly all of them have a classical mythology or Roman meaning. It's a theme.
Actually he does look a lot like Severus in your signature. Is it possible that Tobias is Marius after a change of name. I mean after being denounced by the family Marius might have felt inclined to give himself a new name and be rid of that family once and for all.
:huh: My imagination is working overtime, I'll admit. But it occurred to me that a pureblood family might not even want to raise a Squib - so what would they do with him? Possibly put him in a Muggle Orphanage? He could have been adopted and his name changed.
I was guessing the same thing- that Cedrella is Arthur's mother.
Am I the only one who thinks "Cedrella" sounds like "Cinderella?" :)

Am I the only one who thinks "Cedrella" sounds like "Cinderella?" :)It sounds like someone with a very bad head cold trying to say Cinderella!

Maybe Cedrella is the feminine form of Cedric. :lol:

It's unusual in my world. :lol: You make it sound as if JKR is just opening the phone book to get these names, when nearly all of them have a classical mythology or Roman meaning. It's a theme.

Maybe. But you'll have your work cut out for you if you're going to track down the real Marius.:p :lol:

Maybe. But you'll have your work cut out for you if you're going to track down the real Marius.:p :lol:

I wonder if Marius is the squib Ron mentioned. The one who became an accountant.

The other important piece of evidence about Cedrella and Septimus being Arthur's parents is JKR saying that Ginny was "a seventh child of a seventh child" - the name Septimus suggests that he is a seventh child.


Has JK ever said that Ginny was a 7th child of a 7th child? If she has then it would mean Molly was the one with six siblings as on JK's website she said Arthur was one of 3 brothers and Ginny was the first female to be born in the weasley family for several generations.

I wonder if Marius is the squib Ron mentioned. The one who became an accountant.
Dunno. If we take Ron's word for it, the accountant was a second cousin on Molly's side of the family. He probably was/is a Squib, though I wonder why the Prewetts wouldn't talk about him:grumble:
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry, who found Ron just as interesting as Ron found him.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never talk about him.'

The other important piece of evidence about Cedrella and Septimus being Arthur's parents is JKR saying that Ginny was "a seventh child of a seventh child" - the name Septimus suggests that he is a seventh child.
Has JK ever said that Ginny was a 7th child of a 7th child? If she has then it would mean Molly was the one with six siblings as on JK's website she said Arthur was one of 3 brothers and Ginny was the first female to be born in the weasley family for several generations.
I don't think JKR has said for sure that Ginny is the seventh child of a seventh child. But it does make someone wonder . . . :huh:I wonder if Marius is the squib Ron mentioned. The one who became an accountant.
He would be really, really old now for a muggle, since he was born after Pollux (1912) and before Dorea (1920). He could be in his 90s now.

I can check that easily because I actually have the House of Black as my desktop wallpaper. How's that for obsession??? :rolleyes:

Am I the only one who thinks "Cedrella" sounds like "Cinderella?"
It sounds like someone with a very bad head cold trying to say Cinderella!
It sounds like Neville with a nosebleed. :lol:
Maybe Cedrella is the feminine form of Cedric.
I wondered that, too. Was Cedric supposed to be a pureblood? :huh: I can't remember.

I can check that easily because I actually have the House of Black as my desktop wallpaper. How's that for obsession??? I'm so dense. I should have done that, too. *runs off to do it*

I'm so dense. I should have done that, too. *runs off to do it*Or even better, print it out and nail it to the wall above your computer.:)

Maybe Cedrella is the feminine form of Cedric. :lol:It could well be feminine diminutive form, but it looks like cedrella is a scientific genus name for various cedar trees.

Something with a bug repelling smell?

Or even better, print it out and nail it to the wall above your computer.:)

Cross-stitch it on a 6x6 foot panel and hang it on the wall right beside the serpentine candle torches. :slyth: I'm going to go buy fabric and thread tomorrow. :rotfl:


Maybe Cedrella is the feminine form of Cedric.

It could well be feminine diminutive form, but it looks like cedrella is a scientific genus name for various cedar trees.

Interesting:

http://www.sgvbg.org/historicaltrees.html


Cigar Box Cedar; West Indian Cedar; Span-ish Cedar Cedrela odorata: One of the most valuable timbers for use in tropical Amer-ica. Durable and resistant to dry-wood termites and other insects. Aromatic wood is a favorite for chests and wardrobes.

Well, "Cedar-ella" still sounds like a fairy tale character to me. :)

I don't understand it, either. Maybe there was more than one family house? Maybe this was the "lesser" property (or less desirable)? Maybe one of the wives inherited a family property that they moved to?

If Grimmaund Place was the lesser property, then Walburga's grandfather would have gotten GP and Orion's grandfather would have gotten the better house (may be a country estate). But then as the only son of the eldest son Orion should have gotten the estate and the family would have lived there. If GP came through Walburga's line, then her brothers should have gotten the house. If the house came from the Crabbe line, then Walburga would not have called it the house of her "forefathers."

I go the impression that GP was the best property in the family because it was a mansion in the middle of London.

I go the impression that GP was the best property in the family because it was a mansion in the middle of London.

I don't think so. In the 19th century (and it looks like the house is that old) all people of the solid middle-class who inherited a house lived in the country and "worked" as landowners. The only ones who lived in the city were those who were working (as a lawyer or so - there weren't that many jobs for rich people).

I got the impression that GP was the best property in the family because it was a mansion in the middle of London.
:wow: I wouldn't think a house surrounded by Muggles (and by the amount of trash and disrepair in the neighborhood, it isn't a high class place...) would be all that valued by snobby, Muggle-hating Blacks...:lol:

Hmmm, maybe Arcturus (2), Pollux and Cygnus (2) all ended up in St. Mungo's by 1979...[Trying to account for what are potential math errors ain't easy!]

Maybe Wally's portrait called it the house of her fathers because technically, when she died, it was still in their possession. I always wondered why Sirius wasn't disinherited. Maybe grandpa Arcturus didn't think it was a good idea to disinherit the last of the Blacks, blood-traitor or not.

On the other hand, Kreacher seems to have been alone in the house since the time Sirius' mom died. Couldn't the older Blacks have lived in the country somewhere? In a small cottage or so, leaving Kreacher to take care of the property?

I don't think so. In the 19th century (and it looks like the house is that old) all people of the solid middle-class who inherited a house lived in the country and "worked" as landowners. The only ones who lived in the city were those who were working (as a lawyer or so - there weren't that many jobs for rich people).
Thanks for the info! So may be there was a country estate, but who has it? If it is the best house, then Orion should have had it and the Blacks would have lived in the country. If Orion's dad kept it, then it should have gone to Sirius and Sirius could have lived there instead of in GP.
Originally Posted by Nicole
I wouldn't think a house surrounded by Muggles (and by the amount of trash and disrepair in the neighborhood, it isn't a high class place...) would be all that valued by snobby, Muggle-hating Blacks...

Hmmm, maybe Arcturus (2), Pollux and Cygnus (2) all ended up in St. Mungo's by 1979...[Trying to account for what are potential math errors ain't easy!]
I totally could see the Blacks not wanting to be around Muggles. But the fact that the family tree tapestry, all the heirlooms, and most important Phineas's (the patriarch's) portrait are in that house gives me the feeling that is the primary house.
May be ending up in Mungo's could have taken the house from the other men, but then Sirius still got the house when he was in Azkaban and later when he was a fugative.

Maybe Wally's portrait called it the house of her fathers because technically, when she died, it was still in their possession. I always wondered why Sirius wasn't disinherited. Maybe grandpa Arcturus didn't think it was a good idea to disinherit the last of the Blacks, blood-traitor or not.

On the other hand, Kreacher seems to have been alone in the house since the time Sirius' mom died. Couldn't the older Blacks have lived in the country somewhere? In a small cottage or so, leaving Kreacher to take care of the property?
I also wondered why Mrs. Black did not disinherit Sirius. If the older Blacks lived in the country they would have kept the family tree tapestry and Phineas's portrait. If they went on to Mrs. Black, then they would have taken them back before the house went to rot. Come to think of it, if they were alive, why would they have let the house go to rot in the first place? Also, Sirius's grandfather's Order of Merlin First class is in GP, so looks like his things went on to Sirius's parents at some point before Walburga died. But if he died after Walburga, how did that happen?

May be ending up in Mungo's could have taken the house from the other men, but then Sirius still got the house when he was in Azkaban and later when he was a fugitive.
Well, I meant they ended up in St. Mungo's incapacitated in some way that kept them from making a claim on the house...

Hmm, maybe those three were all bitten by werewolves not long after Regulus joined the Death Eaters and that's the cause of his "cold feet"...:huh: Not sure I believe that, though....Still, a good reason for Orion and Walburga to stop believing in Voldemort and his methods could be something that happened to other family members.

Well, I meant they ended up in St. Mungo's incapacitated in some way that kept them from making a claim on the house...

Hmm, maybe those three were all bitten by werewolves not long after Regulus joined the Death Eaters and that's the cause of his "cold feet"...:huh: Not sure I believe that, though....Still, a good reason for Orion and Walburga to stop believing in Voldemort and his methods could be something that happened to other family members.
I see what you mean by them being unable to make a claim and may be Walburga and Orion snagged the house. But Sirius never makes a claim because as a fugative he can't. He just gets it by the fact that he is the eldest and only living Black male, even though he is a "convicted" murderer.
There is way more between the lines here.

Well, I meant they ended up in St. Mungo's incapacitated in some way that kept them from making a claim on the house...

Hmm, maybe those three were all bitten by werewolves not long after Regulus joined the Death Eaters and that's the cause of his "cold feet"...:huh: Not sure I believe that, though....Still, a good reason for Orion and Walburga to stop believing in Voldemort and his methods could be something that happened to other family members.
Pollux could have been living with Cygnus in their own house.

I got the impression from Walburga's portrait that she was still very much pro-Voldemort. And Kreacher's very devoted to her. Why would he help the Death Eaters if his Mistress had turned against Voldemort?

Arcturus and Orion are wild cards there. Arcturus still owned Grimmauld Place until 1991, but he didn't seem to live there. Neither did he disinherit Sirius. Maybe it was him who stopped believing in Voldemort after what happened to Regulus (and possibly Orion)? Not to mention Sirius.

Or maybe Arcturus lost his mind from grief. Walburga would then have had free reign over Grimmauld Place, but she couldn't do anything legally binding.

I got the impression from Walburga's portrait that she was still very much pro-Voldemort. And Kreacher's very devoted to her. Why would he help the Death Eaters if his Mistress had turned against Voldemort?
Since Sirius is not the most reliable source of information, I suppose when he said "they" he meant someone other than his parents...Or, Walburga could have 'returned' to support of Voldemort in her mentally unstable state (maybe the death of her favorite son and her husband in the same year unhinged her)--the way Alzheimer's patients seem to regress in memory toward their youth...

If anyone can provide a link to the family tree? It would be much appreciated....

Wiki link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Black)
Lexicon here (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/images/blackfamilytrees/frommarco0212-lg.gif)

Thanks for the info! So may be there was a country estate, but who has it?
Depending on the age and location of the house, 12 Grimmauld Place might well have been in the country when it was built. London has spread out considerably over the centuries.

If Orion's dad kept it, then it should have gone to Sirius and Sirius could have lived there instead of in GP.
Sirius told Harry he got a place of his own. Wonder where that is, and if anyone is using it. :eyebrows:

I also wondered why Mrs. Black did not disinherit Sirius. If the older Blacks lived in the country they would have kept the family tree tapestry and Phineas's portrait. If they went on to Mrs. Black, then they would have taken them back before the house went to rot. Come to think of it, if they were alive, why would they have let the house go to rot in the first place? Also, Sirius's grandfather's Order of Merlin First class is in GP, so looks like his things went on to Sirius's parents at some point before Walburga died. But if he died after Walburga, how did that happen?
Maybe that's why Sirius' father put all those protections on the house and made it unplottable, etc. He was trying to keep the family out of it.

I got the impression from Walburga's portrait that she was still very much pro-Voldemort. And Kreacher's very devoted to her. Why would he help the Death Eaters if his Mistress had turned against Voldemort?

Maybe not so much pro Vodle as pro-Pureblood Supremacist. And Kreacher was helping the family he was enslaved to.

Since Sirius is not the most reliable source of information,

Has Sirius ever lied? Lupin's evasiveness leads to more misperceptions.

Thanks for the info! So may be there was a country estate, but who has it? If it is the best house, then Orion should have had it and the Blacks would have lived in the country. If Orion's dad kept it, then it should have gone to Sirius and Sirius could have lived there instead of in GP.

Maybe the house is so bewitched it can fly around so the owners can live wherever they want to live at the moment and it originally stood in the country? :lol:

Has Sirius ever lied?
I wouldn't quite put it that way. But he says Snape hung with Bella and Rodolphus as part of a Slytherin "gang" at Hogwarts, yet Bella must have been out of there before Sev was an ickle firstie, even if Bella was born after Sept. 1, 1951. He thinks Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater (GoF), yet we know Albus testified for Sev before the Karkaroff trial where Igor accuses Snape of being one...Jury is still out about his opinion of Umbridge :evil:...He is certain Kreacher can't leave the house without permission--until corrected by Harry. It's just little stuff. When he is discussing his family's connections with Voldemort, he may not have been referring directly to his parents getting cold feet, but rather the "other" people who felt the way his parents did (purebloods in charge, Muggleborns eliminated, etc.). [I think he was referring to his parents...but others may not!]

When I think of Marius, I think of Les Miserables. Which would suggest all his friends got killed in a revolution they had no hope of winning, and he was saved by his future wife's father.

Aw heck, now I've got 'Do You Hear the People Sing' stuck in my head. :sigh:

Since a few questions have come up about #12, I'd like to add a few thoughts. I think #12 MIGHT be the reason Pollux had a child so young (at 13 or 14). Both of Sirius' grandfathers (Pollux and Arcturus) had daughters in 1925 - the year before Phineas died.

Most likely Pollux (as a 3rd or 4th year) was at Hogwarts while Phineas was headmaster, so Phineas MAY have been closer to him that to his other grandchildren. However, Pollux would be unlikely to inherit much since he was the son of a youngest son. Additionally, Phineas mostly lived at Hogwarts as Headmaster, so rather than have #12 sitting empty for most of the year, so I would not be surprised if his youngest son's family still lived in the house year-round with Elladora, even tho' Cygnus was about 35. It would have been quite lonely for Elladora to live there alone.

Anyway - IF Phineas knew he was dying (an illness perhaps) he might have arranged a will that got around the Black tradition to open up the possibility that Pollux (IF he was a favorite grandson) might inherit. It would not be all that out of the norm to leave the house to whichever grandson had a son first.

We don't know what year Alphard was born since he was blasted off the tapestry, however IF #12 was left in the will to whichever grandson had the first son, then I suggest that Alphard was born before Orion and #12 went to Pollux. A chance at all the wealth and #12 as inheritence would be a good enough reason to marry Pollux off young. After all, he really would only need to get his wife pregnant, then there would not be any reason for him to not go back to Hogwarts right after. She'd live with Pollux's parents (along with the kids when they came along) while he continued with school.

It sounds outrageous to our ears, but not really all that strange for a wealthy family in the past.

This theory also answers a few questions:
1) WHY Pollux would have a child so young
2) WHY #12 us referred to as Sirius' MOTHER's house, when it would really have been owned by her father (because SHE grew up there)
3) WHY Sirius refers to the time WHILE his father lived there (implying HE did NOT grow up there)
4) WHY Sirius thinks he can bypass Black tradition to leave the house to Harry (because the tradition has been bypassed before)
5) WHY Orion would marry his older, relatively unattractive first cousin (to get the house, money and heirlooms back into HIS line of the family - where his side would have believed it belonged, as tradition said)
6) also 'possibly' HOW Snape 'might' know that #12 belonged to Sirius' mother's line - Orion would have been about the same year as Eileen. Sets up the possibility that Eileen knew Orion had to marry Walburga to get the house and money back into his family - which MIGHT (this is WAY out there as an idea) set up why Snape was upset by Sirius comment about #12 being HIS house (IF Orion loved Eileen and couldn't marry her because he had to marry Walburga to get the house)
7) fits with the note on the tree about 'stories between the lines'
8) MIGHT even suggest why Walburga's brother Cygnus had children young as well - trying to beat Walburga and Alphard to having sons - in hope of a new Black tradition - that Pollux would leave the house to the grandson that had the first son (just like it was left to him) '51 would not be all that long after Orion left Hogwarts in '48 - altho' I tend to think that we just have the wrong date for Cygnus' birth, since he would be almost 13 years older than Walburga

Will looking at the history of Grimmauld Place really explain any parts of the story. I think JK just wanted to illustrate how the purebloods are all interelated and had to inlude some random facts about some people in the family and just made mistakes on the dates. There are parts to the tree that may be useful the names of the weasley's and the prewetts

Will looking at the history of Grimmauld Place really explain any parts of the story. I think JK just wanted to illustrate how the purebloods are all interelated and had to inlude some random facts about some people in the family and just made mistakes on the dates. There are parts to the tree that may be useful the names of the weasley's and the prewetts
It may be very important. There could be a lot of clues hidden there about Horcruxes, Regulus, Voldemort, etc. Besides the fact that it will most likely be extremely significant in book 7, it's interesting to talk about. And the tree may be very useful, especially if Harry looks at it and can realize that Regulus Black matches up to RAB.

The only date I'm really looking at is Orion's death date. I'm not sure if any of the other dates are important. I have no doubt the JK doesn't realize that half the dates are muddled and make no sense. As she has stated she is bad a "maths".

as far as the odd dates go, they may be intentional and maybe that's what we have to read between the lines about. i wonder who made up this family tree (i know rowling did, but i mean, in the book). do you think maybe someone altered the geneology when they made the tapestry because something happened that was shameful, too shameful that they couldn't just black it out? because having kids at 13 or whatever age is a little odd because sometimes that can't even be humanly possible.

I'm curious about who put the death dates on the tapestry after Mrs. Black died....does the tapestry magically add names/death dates---or is it manually done....if it's manually done, who did it?

I'm curious about who put the death dates on the tapestry after Mrs. Black died....does the tapestry magically add names/death dates---or is it manually done....if it's manually done, who did it?

yes, exactly what i am wondering because maybe it was tampered with.

WHY would JKR give us a tampered family tree? And HOW would it push the story forward? She'd have to have the kids read the tapestry, find the WRONG info, do something based on the wrong info, realize it was wrong and lastly discover the REAL info.

There's really only one thing on the tapestry for which I can see that happening and that's if Regulus is actually still alive for which we MAY have a few clues, but which I don't feel really confident about - I felt better about it when we thought he died in 1980 since that would have his death coming possibly AFTER Snape turned to Albus - now I think it less likely as Regulus would have had to go to Albus on his own and he wouldn't have Snape to lie to Voldy about killing him. However, we have the chance that Snape hid Regulus on his own without Albus' help. Less likely, but still a small chance.

I'm curious about who put the death dates on the tapestry after Mrs. Black died....does the tapestry magically add names/death dates---or is it manually done....if it's manually done, who did it?
I would think that the dates may be magically done. Didn't JKR say something about there being a magical register to record the birth of a witch or wizard (at least I think I remember she did :blush: ) If that's true than it would be reasonable to assume that this family tree records the death (maybe even birth) of a Black.

I would think that the dates may be magically done. Didn't JKR say something about there being a magical register to record the birth of a witch or wizard (at least I think I remember she did :blush: ) If that's true than it would be reasonable to assume that this family tree records the death (maybe even birth) of a Black.I thought that it may be magically enchanted to do so...perhaps it was a task relegated to Kreacher, who slowly has lost track of things?

This is an inconsistency which is niggling at me.

We're told that Sirius was the last of the male "Blacks"...We're told that if he hadn't made the will leaving the house to Harry it should have passed to Bellatrix, who was the oldest female "Black"...but according to the tapestry the oldest female "Black" is Callidora Black Longbottom, born 1915---there's no death date listed; and she's at least 36 years older than Bella.

I thought that it may be magically enchanted to do so...perhaps it was a task relegated to Kreacher, who slowly has lost track of things?

This is an inconsistency which is niggling at me.

We're told that Sirius was the last of the male "Blacks"...We're told that if he hadn't made the will leaving the house to Harry it should have passed to Bellatrix, who was the oldest female "Black"...but according to the tapestry the oldest female "Black" is Callidora Black Longbottom, born 1915---there's no death date listed; and she's at least 36 years older than Bella.

If Bella/Andromeda/Narcissa's father is older than Callidora's then it will make sense. Death date could also just be unknown I suppose. (Stays in the older of three/more sons and then goes to the daughter of the oldest of those three if there are no other male's left.)

We're told that Sirius was the last of the male "Blacks"...We're told that if he hadn't made the will leaving the house to Harry it should have passed to Bellatrix, who was the oldest female "Black"...but according to the tapestry the oldest female "Black" is Callidora Black Longbottom, born 1915---there's no death date listed; and she's at least 36 years older than Bella.
That is odd, another small JKR mistake?

WHY would JKR give us a tampered family tree? And HOW would it push the story forward? She'd have to have the kids read the tapestry, find the WRONG info, do something based on the wrong info, realize it was wrong and lastly discover the REAL info.

well, that's what they're going to do anyways. why else would she show us the tree if it's not going to be looked into in the next book? they will probably read the tapestry again (now that harry owns the house), discover something strange about it, and do something based on the information.

But he says Snape hung with Bella and Rodolphus as part of a Slytherin "gang" at Hogwarts,

"Snape knew more curses when he ar*rived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."
He didn't say they were all in school at the same time.


He thinks Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater (GoF), yet we know Albus testified for Sev before the Karkaroff trial where Igor accuses Snape of being one... Maybe no one had told him yet. Sirius was no doubt already in Azkaban when that happened.

Jury is still out about his opinion of Umbridge :evil:... I think he's right about Umbridge. She, like Fudge, seems to be among the supremacists who fought against Voldemort.
He is certain Kreacher can't leave the house without permission--until corrected by Harry. He was right! Kreacher had to deliberately misinterpret Sirius' words to leave.

When he is discussing his family's connections with Voldemort, he may not have been referring directly to his parents getting cold feet, but rather the "other" people who felt the way his parents did (purebloods in charge, Muggleborns eliminated, etc.). [I think he was referring to his parents...but others may not!]
"Were - were your parents Death Eaters as well?"

"No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first."

I don't understand why the question about Grimmauld Place. It followed a direct male line of inheritance from Phineas Nigellus to Sirius. Why are we trying to move it in another direction?

This is an inconsistency which is niggling at me.

We're told that Sirius was the last of the male "Blacks"...We're told that if he hadn't made the will leaving the house to Harry it should have passed to Bellatrix, who was the oldest female "Black"...but according to the tapestry the oldest female "Black" is Callidora Black Longbottom, born 1915---there's no death date listed; and she's at least 36 years older than Bella.


Maybe Callidora is just too far out of the main line of the family. Her branch of the Black family separated way back in the late 1800s.


Here's another question, though: Why was it "Sirius's mother's house" if Pollux Black outlived his daughter? Shouldn't it still have been his house? And if it was, why didn't he (apparently) live there?

I think they are magical added, like the quill at Hogwarts adds any child that is born magical

It’s very possible for a 13 year old to father a child, even for a 13 girl to get pregnant and give birth.

I don’t think the family tree will have most importance in the last book, ( if it were I don’t think JK would have shared it.) Except possible Regulus, other then that, more then half of the people are dead.

Orion and Walburga would have been 2nd Cousins , their fathers were the first cousins Pollux and Arcturus

I agree Callidora just wasn’t the most direct line, but going from Sirius to his 1st cousin bella would have been a direct line

Maybe Callidora is just too far out of the main line of the family. Her branch of the Black family separated way back in the late 1800s.


Here's another question, though: Why was it "Sirius's mother's house" if Pollux Black outlived his daughter? Shouldn't it still have been his house? And if it was, why didn't he (apparently) live there?

well, was this a house that was passed down generation to generation or was it just that generation of blacks that lived there? wouldn't it just be like my mother dying (:no: ) and my grandpa out-living her? the house would go to me instead of to my grandfather i suppose. i don't know.

I suppose the question is more why was it Walburga's house in the first place - Pollux hadn't died yet!

There are some other questions to be asked, too... such as why Draco is on the tree when all other non-Black children are not.

Walburger never said it was her house. She said it was the house of her fathers, her ancestors. The house passed through a direct line to Sirius from Orion.

The house is referred to more than once as Walburga's rather than Orion's (and I think it's been pretty well theorized how this came to be earlier in the thread). Either way, neither Arcturus nor Pollux Black died before Walburga, so in either case they would have still lived in the house long after Walburga died (which is when Kreacher was left alone, according to Sirius).

The house went directly from Phineas Nigellus to his oldest son, Sirius -> Arcturus -> Orion -> Sirius II. Why would Pollux even be in the house? For all we know, Arcturus retired to Majorca. ;)
How dare you befoul the house of my fathers -"

"- FILTHY HALF-BREEDS, BESMIRCHING THE HOUSE OF MY FATHERS -"
I may have missed something, but this is all I can find of Mrs Black screaming about the house.

Harry knew that with Umbridge on constant watch it would be unwise to attempt to contact him, he did not like to think of Sirius alone in his mother's old house,
Harry doesn't know anything of the history of the Black family. Orion died in '79. His heir, Sirius, would have already left home, but as it doesn't seem as though he was disinherited, the house would have passed to Sirius on his father's death. Since he had a place of his own, his mother and Kreacher had Grimmauld Place to themselves until he returned. Otherwise, I think the house would have gone to someone else when Walburga died.

There has to be SOME reason the house is referred to as Sirius' 'mother's house'. Harry isn't the only one to call it such. Snape also does in an argument where Sirius brought up that the house was his.

Normally, I wouldn't think Snape would know - however Sirius' comment about the house belonging to him was the ONLY thing in the argument that got a rise out of Snape. We don't yet know why, but there must be some reason that Snape's face flushed over that comment and I would think that whatever the reason, Snape must therefore know something about the background of the house.

however Sirius' comment about the house belonging to him was the ONLY thing in the argument that got a rise out of Snape. We don't yet know why, but there must be some reason that Snape's face flushed over that comment and I would think that whatever the reason, Snape must therefore know something about the background of the house.
Was this when Snape came to tell Harry about occlumency?
"Sit down, Potter."

"You know," said Sirius loudly, leaning back on his rear chair legs and speaking to the ceiling, "I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see."

An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face.
Snape is thwarted. It was his intention to have Harry to himself, at his mercy. Sirius screwed that up on him.

It is interesting that Snape never eats at Grimmauld Place, though.

Another possibility to consider is that Orion left a will specifically leaving the house to his wife. But the fact that Sirius got it at all is confusing, because then, he would have gotten it from his mother who apparently hated him. Nevertheless, we've seen Sirius leave the house out of direct line. Perhaps Orion did something in his will to stipulate his wife would get the house and then it would go to the next in the Black line, which is still Sirius.

Or it could be all smoke and no fire.

The house went directly from Phineas Nigellus to his oldest son, Sirius -> Arcturus -> Orion -> Sirius II. Why would Pollux even be in the house? For all we know, Arcturus retired to Majorca.We do not know this with any degree of certainty. What we are told is that 12 Grimmauld Place passes from male Black to the eldest male Black, not the eldest son of a single direct line, the eldest male Black. This leaves the door open for a wide variety of possibilities as to who 'inherits' 12 Grimmauld Place.

I believe that Kingwidgit brought up the point that according to the Tapestry Bellatrix is not the eldest female Black, Callidora Longbottom nee Black is. This does not mean Dumbledore was wrong, just that he was not completely aware of all possible Black heirs.

In order for the house to pass to Bellatrix, the Tapestry must be backtracked and traced to the eldest male/female Black through another direct line, of which there are several to choose from.

Callidora is the daughter of Arcturus b. 1884. He was the second eldest son of Phineas, from what the tapestry shows.

Bellatrix is descended through Cygnus b. 1889. [Her father and her great-grandfather shared this name.]

There is Phineas--supporter of muggle rights, we do not know if he left heirs. There is Marius, the Squib. Uncle Alphard, who left Sirius a 'decent bit of gold'.

There is the sister of Phineas Nigellus, Isla---did she have heirs? Are they older than Bellatrix?

There is the daughter of Arcturus and Lysandra, Cedrella, who married a Weasley. We know that there are male Weasleys, Arthur is one of three brothersw----would they be considered 'Black' enough to inherit, provided there was no longer any male Blacks to pass the house on to?

We do not know this with any degree of certainty. What we are told is that 12 Grimmauld Place passes from male Black to the eldest male Black, not the eldest son of a single direct line, the eldest male Black. This leaves the door open for a wide variety of possibilities as to who 'inherits' 12 Grimmauld Place.
"Black family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black.'
In a direct line, it passes first from father to eldest son. For example, if Prince Charles died, his title wouldn't go to his next eldest brother, but to his eldest son. Since Black tradition stipulates "male," if there are no children, or only daughters, the house would then go to the next male in the direct line. In the case of Prince Charles, if he'd had daughters then his next brother in line would inherit the estate and so on from there in that direct male line. In Orion's case that would go to Cygnus, (unless Uncle Regulus had a son who didn't make the chart). But it's moot, because Orion had two sons. No way to know which died first, Orion or Regulus as they died the same year, but clearly, Sirius wasn't disinherited.

I believe that Kingwidgit brought up the point that according to the Tapestry Bellatrix is not the eldest female Black, Callidora Longbottom nee Black is. This does not mean Dumbledore was wrong, just that he was not completely aware of all possible Black heirs. Or more likely that the years on the chart are wrong. I think a number of years given on the chart are probably wrong, but ....

If we consider that Dumbledore knows what he's talking about (and how charts are usually arranged), I'm inclined to think that Cygnus was the second son, born in 1879. This would make him 23 if Pollux was born in 1902, Pollux 23 when Walburga was born in 1925 and if we change his bdate to 1928, Cygnus II would have been 23 when Bellatrix was born in 1951. This puts Bellatrix in the direct line.

I just can't see JKR marrying children off and letting them procreate at 13 and 14 years old. It has to be a mistake.


There is Phineas--supporter of muggle rights, we do not know if he left heirs. There is Marius, the Squib. Uncle Alphard, who left Sirius a 'decent bit of gold'. Phineas and Alphard are good questions, but I think we can forget about poor Marius. We can probably forget about Isla's offspring if she had any as there are other females in more "direct" lines before her.


There is the daughter of Arcturus and Lysandra, Cedrella, who married a Weasley. We know that there are male Weasleys, ---- provided there was no longer any male Blacks to pass the house on to?Interesting question. Only if the house got passed in the direct line to their mother, but her older sister married a Longbottom and had a son and daughter, so that would leave Cedrella and her offspring out of the running.

I'm interested in Dumbledore's comment, "It seems that Sirius knew what he was doing. You are the rightful owner of number twelve, Grimmauld Place and of Kreacher."
Is this connected to the fact that Harry was Sirius' legal ward and thus superceded any female claims to the estate?

I don't believe the house would ever be left to a squib! :no:

I believe that Kingwidgit brought up the point that according to the Tapestry Bellatrix is not the eldest female Black, Callidora Longbottom nee Black is. This does not mean Dumbledore was wrong, just that he was not completely aware of all possible Black heirs.
I'll admit up front that I'm not nearly as interested in this topic as some of you, and I'm taking a stab in the dark, but it occurred to me that Callidora might be dead even if her death date isn't on the House of Black.

Nothing would have been added after the death of Mrs. Black, right? There's no canon that these dates magically appear - they are embroidered on, either by hand or by magic. Right? :huh:

So just because there is no death date doesn't mean someone is necessarily alive. Therefore, Dumbledore could be perfectly right in saying that Bella Black Lestrange is next in line.

So just because there is no death date doesn't mean someone is necessarily alive. Therefore, Dumbledore could be perfectly right in saying that Bella Black Lestrange is next in line.
The problem being, according to the tapestry JK put up for auction, there are people's death dates that appear on the tapestry after Walburga died in 1985. Who put it there? Or is this just an "Oops" on JKs part?
Arcturus d. 1991
Pollux d. 1990
Cassiopeia d. 1992
Lucretia d. 1992
Cygnus d. 1992

Maybe not JKR's part. Are there any photos of the whole thing or are we working from the notes and memory of one intrepid (and much appreciated) soul. Those death dates are confusing but perhaps not as alarming as some of the parenting dates. :D The point is, I think perhaps the dates were difficult to make out and could have errors. If that's the case, we have to rely on Dumbledore to keep it all straight.

Sirius told Harry he got a place of his own. Wonder where that is, and if anyone is using it. :eyebrows:

I think Sirius found an appartment after he left the Potters. If there were another house I think Sirius would have gone there before going to the Potters', if he legally could. I got the impression that he had to stay with the Potters because he had no where else to go and only when Uncle Alphard left him an inheritence he was able to get his own place.

OotP, Ch 4
How dare you befoul the house of my fathers -"

OotP, Ch 10
"- FILTHY HALF-BREEDS, BESMIRCHING THE HOUSE OF MY FATHERS -"

The quotes from whizbang121 make me think the house was from Mrs. Black's father.

Why the need for all these convoluted explainations to understand a supplement to the books?

I was kind of upset when Jo Rowling auctioned the tree. Almost any kid in any country can get a library card for free and read the books. But really only a kid with a computer can get a look at the tree. Why give some an unfair advantage to understanding the story?

The stuff with the underaged fathers still confuses me. Harry and Hermione do not date until their fourth year. But in the tree kids their age are starting families. There are some stange threads wovens into the Black family tapestry.

If you can get a library card, most libraries also have computers, so those children could also get access to the internet.

All this referencing to "house of my fathers" makes me think of Wales for some reason. Must be some link to their anthem, "Land of My Fathers" which is causing it... :)

Originally posted by Essbee
If you can get a library card, most libraries also have computers, so those children could also get access to the internet.

I agree in the "First World." But Harry Potter is enjoyed all around the world in places where computers are scarce if availible at all.

Or more likely that the years on the chart are wrong. I think a number of years given on the chart are probably wrong, but ....
Definitely. We haven't even seen the whole thing yet. There was only one person from TLC at the auction who - thankfully - copied down what he/she could make out. It is not at all unlikely that some of the dates aren't final. I wouldn't base any theories on family intrigues involving pre-teen marriages (almost) on this kind of information yet. Or accuse Jo of getting it all wrong.

Or does anyone have a statement by our spy how long s/he was able to look at the tree, how close they came, whether the numbers were easy to decipher... :rolleyes:

If we consider that Dumbledore knows what he's talking about (and how charts are usually arranged), I'm inclined to think that Cygnus was the second son, born in 1879. This would make him 23 if Pollux was born in 1902, Pollux 23 when Walburga was born in 1925 and if we change his bdate to 1928, Cygnus II would have been 23 when Bellatrix was born in 1951. This puts Bellatrix in the direct line.
I exchanged the birth dates of Walburga (1925 -> 1935) and Cygnus (1938 -> 1928) earlier, but your theory makes more sense. It accounts for Bellatrix being in the more direct line than Callidora. Bellatrix is Sirius first cousin through his mother. According to male primogeniture rules Callidora would have been the next female in line.

I just can't see JKR marrying children off and letting them procreate at 13 and 14 years old. It has to be a mistake.

:agree: :agree:

The problem being, according to the tapestry JK put up for auction, there are people's death dates that appear on the tapestry after Walburga died in 1985. Who put it there? Or is this just an "Oops" on JKs part?
Arcturus d. 1991
Pollux d. 1990
Cassiopeia d. 1992
Lucretia d. 1992
Cygnus d. 1992
Well, see . . . I warned you I wasn't sure what I was talking about! I should have checked the death date of Dear Walburgia. :lol:

The quotes from whizbang121 make me think the house was from Mrs. Black's father.

She means, her ancestors. If she meant her father, she would have used father in the singular.

Bellatrix is Sirius first cousin through his mother. According to male primogeniture rules Callidora would have been the next female in line.
No, because the direct line wasn't through Walburga but her brother Cygnus, Bella's father.

We're following the direct male line, not looking for Sirius' nearest relative. It's different.

No, because the direct line wasn't through Walburga but her brother Cygnus, Bella's father.

We're following the direct male line, not looking for Sirius' nearest relative. It's different.
No no:p

The direct male line died out. If Sirius had left a daughter, she would have inherited the house, even if there were other male Blacks still living.

When the 'ruling' branch of the family dies out completely, you have to go back the male line and check all the male siblings of previous 'rulers' for living off-spring. Orion didn't have brothers, Arcturus' brother Regulus is dead without children, Sirius the first had two brothers, both with a couple of children. You then have to go down the branch of the elder of the two to check for heirs. If Arcturus the first is older than Cygnus the first, Callidora Longbottom inherits. If Cygnus the first is the elder, Bellatrix Lestrange inherits. The age of the heirs doesn't matter at all, it's only important which one of the relevant ancestors was the elder.

Nor would it matter if on the line of the younger one there was a living male, because females inherit their fathers' rights if they don't have a brother (any longer). If Lucretia Prewett did have children, they would have inherited, because she was the first heiress after Orion. But there aren't any females with children on that branch of the family.

It's the inheritance system in most of the royal families in Europe (at least until a couple of years ago; some countries like Sweden changed that in favour of the direct line without gender requirements). As far as I know, it's still the system that's operative with the British monarchy at any rate.

There's the link on primogeniture on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture

The system I'm referring to would be the 'male-preference primogeniture'.

[Edit: primogeniture means something like first-born principle]

Some of the other inheritance systems suggested on this thread really belong to other cultures. During Roman times in Europe and some time afterwards a couple of Germanic tribes had a system where the oldest male of a particular family became king. (I don't know too much about it, but I believe the Saudi-Arabian monarchy does also have a system where the oldest of a wider range of the royal family inherits).

It may be possible that Callidora Black is actually Augusta Longbottom. Perhaps she changed her first name so she was no longer connected to the fanatical Pureblood family. Or Augusta may be a middle name. Just a thought.

The direct male line died out. If Sirius had left a daughter, she would have inherited the house, even if there were other male Blacks still living.I don't think so. It follows a direct male line. If Sirius had a daughter and Regulus was dead, you would have to trace back through Orion to Arcturus to SiriusI until you came to a male with male offspring. The direct male line would continue from this point. The confusion is in the dates. Because the chart shows Arcturus older than Cygnus, he appears to be the next male in the line. But in view of the fact that family trees don't usually run right to left that way and there are a number of other alarmingly questionable dates, along with Dumbledore's assertion that Bellatrix is next in line, I'm assuming that Cygnus was actually older than Arcturus and the next male Black with a direct line to follow.

Bellatrix is on that direct line, but if she'd had a younger brother, it would have passed over her and preferred the male offspring. The only way a female can inherit is if there are no male Blacks left on the tree, as is the case here.

So unless someone is alive who was believed dead, or Harry's christening made him Sirius legal heir, the estate reverts to the nearest female on the last direct male line. Bella

Actually, if Sirius had a daughter, you're right, she would have inherited because there are no more male Blacks.

I don't think so. It follows a direct male line. If Sirius had a daughter and Regulus was dead, you would have to trace back through Orion to Arcturus to SiriusI until you came to a male with male offspring. The direct male line would continue from this point. The confusion is in the dates. Because the chart shows Arcturus older than Cygnus, he appears to be the next male in the line. But in view of the fact that family trees don't usually run right to left that way and there are a number of other alarmingly questionable dates, along with Dumbledore's assertion that Bellatrix is next in line, I'm assuming that Cygnus was actually older than Arcturus and the next male Black with a direct line to follow.

Bellatrix is on that direct line, but if she'd had a younger brother, it would have passed over her and preferred the male offspring. The only way a female can inherit is if there are no male Blacks left on the tree, as is the case here.

So unless someone is alive who was believed dead, or Harry's christening made him Sirius legal heir, the estate reverts to the nearest female on the last direct male line. Bella

Actually, if Sirius had a daughter, you're right, she would have inherited because there are no more male Blacks.
That's not quite how male-preference primogeniture works, and I think it is the model referred to because it is established procedure in the more traditional aspects of society in the UK (like the monarchy).

The direct line always goes back along the males, not their wives. Walburga being a Black herself is insignificant in terms of the heritage rules. Females inherit by default, but only on a sibling-default-level: in case the off-spring of a particular person was entitled but there wasn't a male heir there.

btw: I agree that Cygnis I was older than Arcturus I.

In the Black family tree it shows how all the pure blood families are interrelated. This we take as fact. Well James Potter was pure blood. Since we except that all wizarding families are related then that means Harry is related to all the families on the trees. The relationship may be distant, but the fact that it is there must make it important. Jk wouldn't do something like this on accident.

The direct male line died out. If Sirius had left a daughter, she would have inherited the house, even if there were other male Blacks still living.


I get it. :blush: I apologise for being obtuse the last time I answered this. Now that's it's quiet here, I can understand what you mean.

So the confusion really lies with the dates for some of the Blacks.

Anyone know if the chart has been sold yet?

Anyone know if the chart has been sold yet?Yes - and it was bought by Dan Radcliffe - so maybe we might get lucky and he'll scan it.

Are you kidding?

I gotta read the newspapers once in awhile. :lol:

I think it was on the Leaky Cauldron front page last week.

He won't scan it. JKR knows where he lives. :lol:

He could at least send some 'anonymous' information to the Lexicon. We wouldn't tell! :D

If nothing else, to just fix those funky dates.

I'm so unbelieveably happy that Dan bought that Family Tree... I wanted it soooo badly, but knowing he has it and not some anonymous eccentric millionaire makes me feel sooo much better...sort of like it's still in the family, ya know? lol

She means, her ancestors. If she meant her father, she would have used father in the singular.
But on the other hand, if she meant her anscestors she could have said anscestors or forefatheres. Why does she instead use the word "fathers"?

Someone needs to write to Jo Rowling and ask her what is between the lines in this tree. But I heard from the rumor mill that she does not read her mail and only her assistants read her letters.

But on the other hand, if she meant her anscestors she could have said anscestors or forefatheres.
The usual expression is fathers (as In the Hymn Faith of out fathers)

I'm so unbelieveably happy that Dan bought that Family Tree... I wanted it soooo badly, but knowing he has it and not some anonymous eccentric millionaire makes me feel sooo much better...sort of like it's still in the family, ya know? lol
I wonder if she put it up because she knew Dan wanted it and could afford to outbid the rest of the world. :rolleyes:

I just read this again and realized it sounds resentful, and I'm really not. It's kinda hilarious.

And I'm glad he bought it too. :agree: It's in the family and who knows, maybe he's got a better idea of who and what Harry is all about. If anyone needs to know that, it's Dan Radcliffe.

We should put out an appeal to Dan to let the Lexicon and Mugglenet look at that chart for 30 minutes. Please, Dan - do it for your fans!!! :)

Of course, what if the dates are correct, and they are still "funky"? Then we'll have to sit around waiting for JKR to clarify . . .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/screaman.gif

We should put out an appeal to Dan to let the Lexicon and Mugglenet look at that chart for 30 minutes.
:lol: Oh c'mon. Let's ask for a hi res image. :agree: If the dates are all right I will be looking at JKR through a new pair of glasses. http://students.washington.edu/bryanws/images/smiley/shifty-eyed.gif

In the Black family tree it shows how all the pure blood families are interrelated. This we take as fact. Well James Potter was pure blood. Since we except that all wizarding families are related then that means Harry is related to all the families on the trees. The relationship may be distant, but the fact that it is there must make it important. Jk wouldn't do something like this on accident.i've only backread the last 3 pages, so i don't know if this issue was discussed earlier...

how on earth did harry not manage to notice that there was a potter on the black family tree??? sirius' great aunt dorea married charlus potter. as DALeader says, i'm not surprised that the intermarriage happened, but i also agree that it must be important. but why didn't harry notice?

I'm so unbelieveably happy that Dan bought that Family Tree... I wanted it soooo badly, but knowing he has it and not some anonymous eccentric millionaire makes me feel sooo much better...sort of like it's still in the family, ya know? lol
Haha. Yeah I'd rather him than some random person who wantedthe fame

Okay, I just saw the Black family tree, I have not seen discussion on this, however, I'm sure it's here somewhere.

Um, what has been said about a Potter on the Black Family tree? Has J.K. commented on this?

Your family is usually those who are linked closely to you, mom dad, grandparents, second cousins twice removed are known more as relatives. Harry may have no family but he may have distant relatives

Um, what has been said about a Potter on the Black Family tree? Has J.K. commented on this?No comment by JKR, but plenty of speculation by fans! :lol: You might like to see JKR's Black Family Tree: Dorea and Charlus Potter
(http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=83466).

i've only backread the last 3 pages, so i don't know if this issue was discussed earlier...

how on earth did harry not manage to notice that there was a potter on the black family tree??? sirius' great aunt dorea married charlus potter. as DALeader says, i'm not surprised that the intermarriage happened, but i also agree that it must be important. but why didn't harry notice?

I very much doubt it's important. Harry won't be anything closer than third cousins to most of these families, it's a very distant relation. Plus, if Harry is related to these people by blood, that means JKR made a maths mistake, and Charlus is Harry's grandfather. But JKR said that Harry's grandparents are totally irrelevent to the plot - it's just a bit of backstory she has. So the fact that a Potter is on this tree means very little - it's a bit of interesting trivia, some backstory JKR put in for her own pleasure, but the idea that Harry being a very distant cousin of *whoever* being important to the story is a bit far-fetched, IMO. I don't expect it to be mentioned in Book VII at all.

Your family is usually those who are linked closely to you, mom dad, grandparents, second cousins twice removed are known more as relatives. Harry may have no family but he may have distant relatives
Also check out this great editorial by FaceOfBoe Dorea Potter, Charlus Potter and Canon (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-boe01.shtml)

i've only backread the last 3 pages, so i don't know if this issue was discussed earlier...

how on earth did harry not manage to notice that there was a potter on the black family tree??? sirius' great aunt dorea married charlus potter. as DALeader says, i'm not surprised that the intermarriage happened, but i also agree that it must be important. but why didn't harry notice?
Haven't you noticed that Harry is clueless sometimes? :) Also, Sirius doesn't mention it to him. :rolleyes:

My guess is that Charlus could be any Potter, he could be Harry's great-uncle, on his father's side. I am sure that he must be some relation to Harry. Though, propably not an important part.

I think the most important thing learned from knowing the Black Family ancestory, is, it does not matter where you come from. Obviously, there are good and bad people mixed in with the Black family. For all we know, the Potters listed were dark wizards. It is an important lesson of the books, and has been a prevalant theme, that ancestory is not important.

I think something else interesting to think about is this: the Weasley's, and the Potters are not blasted off the tapestry. Interesting little thing to think about. Assuming that anyone who failed to uphold the Black Family traditions, were in fact blasted off.

I think something else interesting to think about is this: the Weasley's, and the Potters are not blasted off the tapestry. Interesting little thing to think about. Assuming that anyone who failed to uphold the Black Family traditions, were in fact blasted off.I think you meant the PREWITTS and the Potters. The Black who married a Weasley WAS blasted off.

Sorry, actually, I meant the Longbottoms, and the Potters.

I suppose, though, that they were pureblood, and had never openly oppossed Black family traditions, so that may be why they remained on the tapestry.

I think we also should face the fact that just because Neville, Harry and Molly and her two brothers are anti-Dark Arts, anti-blood mania and anti-Muggle bashing doesn't mean that every member of their families were.

The problem, sorry if this was already said and I didn't see it, with Dorea and Charlus being related to Harry is that the Dursleys are supposed to be "the only family he has left." Of course, Dumbledore could have decided that they were better than some dark magic family related to the Blacks, but I don't see him lying about that.

Well, we know that Harry has lot's of ancestors, or we assume he does, since he saw lots of people in the Mirror of Erised. They could very well all be dead. I don't think that Dumbledore would lie about his family. Obviously, the Dursleys were sort of a last resort.

Charlus could have been his great uncle and they only had one child, so their son could have been James' cousin, but since we know that James' parents were older, the cousin could have been a good bit older than James. Does all this make sense?

To sum: I don't think Charlus was James' father or grandfather, but some relation. And, I do believe that all of Harry's family that would count as family is dead.

I wouldn't want to live there as long as Kricher is around.

Even if there were living relatives on the Potter side, Dumbledore might have sent Harry to the Dursleys anyway to be protected by Lily's blood.

Even if there were living relatives on the Potter side, Dumbledore might have sent Harry to the Dursleys anyway to be protected by Lily's blood.I'm not sure that's true. It would really have to depend on the type of person the 'relative' was...here's a quote from JKs site.Professor Dumbledore is Harry's real grandfather/close relative of some description.

If Dumbledore had been Harry's grandfather, why on earth would he have been sent to live with the Dursleys?This seems to suggest that if there was another alternative to Petunia, then Dumbledore might have used it.

I'm not sure that's true. It would really have to depend on the type of person the 'relative' was...here's a quote from JKs site.Professor Dumbledore is Harry's real grandfather/close relative of some description.

If Dumbledore had been Harry's grandfather, why on earth would he have been sent to live with the Dursleys?This seems to suggest that if there was another alternative to Petunia, then Dumbledore might have used it.
Well, Dumbledore could have been more of a protection than most wizarding families. Also, it should make a difference whether or not the relative was on the Potter side or the Evans side.

Even if there were living relatives on the Potter side, Dumbledore might have sent Harry to the Dursleys anyway to be protected by Lily's blood.

I agree. Dumbledore seemed to know how important that protection was going to be and I don't think he would have compromised it.

On another note....

If there is a living Potter relative that is listed on the Black family tapestry, Dumbledore may have avoided sending Harry to live with them because of their character. Yes, the Dursleys are nasty people, but they have no knowledge of pure blood mania and can't indoctrinate Harry with such things. I don't like the Dursleys at all, but I have to admit that they are better for Harry than a relative with a Slytherin-esque out look on the wizarding world.
The worst thing for young Harry would have been to grow up thinking he was better than everyone else.
And, nevermind the fact that pure blood supremacist of a relative most likely would not have taken in Harry anyway. Harry is a half blood and would have been seen as unworthy.

I agree. Dumbledore seemed to know how important that protection was going to be and I don't think he would have compromised it.

On another note....

If there is a living Potter relative that is listed on the Black family tapestry, Dumbledore may have avoided sending Harry to live with them because of their character. Yes, the Dursleys are nasty people, but they have no knowledge of pure blood mania and can't indoctrinate Harry with such things. I don't like the Dursleys at all, but I have to admit that they are better for Harry than a relative with a Slytherin-esque out look on the wizarding world.
The worst thing for young Harry would have been to grow up thinking he was better than everyone else.
And, nevermind the fact that pure blood supremacist of a relative most likely would not have taken in Harry anyway. Harry is a half blood and would have been seen as unworthy.
Good point, and I'm thinking that is a likely answer! :agree:

It occurred to me also - and this is rank speculation of the worst kind - but what if some of these Blacks and Potters who might be alive are in Azkaban? :huh: We have the canon of Sirius unable to raise Harry because of that, but what if Harry found out he had living relatives in the jailhouse?

They could also be in the Closed Ward at St. Mungo's, too. I'm just free associating, but it would explain the lack of inheritance also. . .

It is strange that Sirius does not mention a Potter on the family tree. May be it is something like Bellatrix and Rodolphus. Or may be he thinks that that branch of the Potters had died out, so there is no point mentioning it. Sirius says in Prisoner of Azkaban that Harry is the last of the Potters.

Sirius says in Prisoner of Azkaban that Harry is the last of the Potters.

??? Can you post that quote?

We know that Harry has no immediate family, at least no one closer than Petunia and Dudley. More distant relations could crop up, though. I've often wondered if Hagrid was distantly related to the Potters.

Jo has said Harry has no family , he may have some distant relations but one wouldnt really consider them Kin folk

??? Can you post that quote?

We know that Harry has no immediate family, at least no one closer than Petunia and Dudley. More distant relations could crop up, though. I've often wondered if Hagrid was distantly related to the Potters.

JK said that some relatives of Harry may crop up, but they wont be relevant to the plot.

I also think it's strange how Dumbledore never sent Harry to live with any family members that were mentioned on the Black family tree. There is however an important point to note.
The Black family moto is 'Toujours Pur'- meaning Everyday pure. This could explain the fact that everyone who isn't pureblood- or is a blood traiter has been blasted off the tapestry. However, if Charlus Potter is on there then this means the Potters must also be/ used to be descendants of an ancient Wizarding family, probably as strict as the Blacks.
But if James married Lily, who was a muggle-born, then we could deduce that he is perhaps from a branch of disowned Potter's. I know i'm extending this theory a little, but what if the same way there are traiter Blacks living, there are also Potters and Longbottoms? Then Harry's family would probably not want to accept him seeing as he is a half blood- which is probably why Dumbledore didn't send him to live with them.

I know my theory's a little confusing lol- but please tell me what you think about this idea.

Dumbledore had harry protected by blood, until he's 17. so he couldn't stay with sirius, without staying at the Dursleys for a while- even a short while. I think the Black family will play an import role. RAB might just be Regulus, but we can't say for sure...

JK said that some relatives of Harry may crop up, but they wont be relevant to the plot.
I missed that one too! Any hope of a quote and a link?

Silly question maybe...

Were the Potters purebloods? Before Harry I mean? If so, are they related to the Weasleys and the Blacks?

Somewhere in either book 5/6 Sirius does say that James came from a Pure blood family. So which other familys are they related to?

the tapesty, would only be focusing on the blacks otherwise...it would be very wide rather than very long if that makes sense, because say if a black marries an X then it would have to show the X's relations which would just be tedious, also all the pure bloods were interelated, although it says they probably were,and even if they were, it doesnt mean blood related which is the whole point about pure bloods, it just means family ties, like we are humans are closer to those of the same blood rather than being related by marriage..

Sirius says in Prisoner of Azkaban that Harry is the last of the Potters.
??? Can you post that quote?Here's the quote from POA."...ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies....and to deliver the last Potter to them."

Here's the quote from POA."...ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies....and to deliver the last Potter to them."
But that could just be refering to the last of the Potters whom Voldemort had been after - meaning the last of Harry's immediate family.

"But then I saw Peter in that picture... I realized he was at Hogwarts with Harry... perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again...."

Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noiselessly, but staring all the while at Black as though hypnotized.

"... ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies... and to deliver the last Potter to them. if he gave them Harry, who'd dare say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with honors....

"So you see, I had to do something. I was the only one who knew Peter
was still alive...."

It was Lupin.
He looked into Harry's face and then said quietly, "James was a pureblood, Harry, and I promise you, he never asked us to call him 'Prince.'"



Hmmm..... that gets to be one of those "interpretive" quotes. Wormtail was the secret keeper for three Potters. He betrayed them to Voldemort who went to Godric's Hollow, one of them escaped, and Wormtail was again in a position to deliver him. So my initial interp was the last Potter betrayed to Voldemort by Wormtail, as Rell pointed out. It seemed like a lot to imagine he was delivering the last Potter in the entire magical world.

But if this does mean that Harry is the last Potter, as Sirius was the last Black, maybe there is a connection to why Voldemort would have let Lily live. She was a Potter by marriage, not blood.

We know that the pureblood families were dying out. Still, while I could understand the purebloods dying out, we also know that some of them were intermarrying with muggleborns and muggles, and I wouldn't expect surnames to disappear from the community. James and Harry seem a perfect example.

Interessting.
I think last of the Potters means last of the male Potters who can carry on the Potter name. Phineas calls Sirius the last of the Blacks when he had pleny other great to the n power grandchildren. He believed that it was only Sirius who could carry on the Black family name. Also, Dumbledore calls Crouch Jr. the last Crouch. Lupin says that James was a pure-blood, so James would have been able to carry on the family name.

wow, was Voldemort trying to either recruit or kill all of the pureblood families? He went after the Potters, the Longbottoms, the Prewitts and many others, is it because they are pureblood? Could that be why them, particularly?

Was his motive for killing these people reactionary (because they were after him to bring him down for his deeds) or proactive (because, he wanted from the beginning to get rid of them for his own reasons) He is the kind of person who plans things meticulously.

We know his reason for wanting Harry dead is more because he is a threat to him, than for revenge. Maybe that is why he was willing to spare Lily, because she is not a threat to him. Were the others a threat to him for other reasons?

Not a major epiphany, and perhaps someone has mentioned it already and I missed the post, but I think that the name of Phineas's son Phineus is not spelled differently, but is merely a transcription error when Aberforth, the Lexicon's stalwart spy took down the information.

This would lead me to concur with suggestions that we don't have teen pregnancies, but copy errors for some dates.

Not a major epiphany, and perhaps someone has mentioned it already and I missed the post, but I think that the name of Phineas's son Phineus is not spelled differently, but is merely a transcription error when Aberforth, the Lexicon's stalwart spy took down the information..The tree on the Lexicon has them both spelled the same = Phineas

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamilytree.html

Well they've since corrected it because it used to be that way.

Well they've since corrected it because it used to be that way.They [robably saw your post and corrected it afterwards. However, I think it could also have just been a typo. They HAVE corrected one of the dates along the way also (Lucretia born in 1925 instead of 1915), but left the other 13/14 year old fathers alone

I do wish they'd find a way to confirm those dates (perhaps contact Dan :D).

I do wish they'd find a way to confirm those dates (perhaps contact Dan :D).
Or maybe his mother, since he must be knee-deep in filming OotP. :lol:

Not a major epiphany, and perhaps someone has mentioned it already and I missed the post, but I think that the name of Phineas's son Phineus is not spelled differently, but is merely a transcription error when Aberforth, the Lexicon's stalwart spy took down the information.

This would lead me to concur with suggestions that we don't have teen pregnancies, but copy errors for some dates.

I just looked on the tree and wondered why the second son has his fathers name and not the first one? I think it was usual to name the eldest son, the child who inherits title and house, after the father. Maybe Phineas called Sirius II Sirius because of his brother who died at the age of 8? But Phineas doesn't seem that sensitive to me...

I just looked on the tree and wondered why the second son has his fathers name and not the first one? I think it was usual to name the eldest son, the child who inherits title and house, after the father. Maybe Phineas called Sirius II Sirius because of his brother who died at the age of 8? But Phineas doesn't seem that sensitive to me...
True, it usually is the firstborn son who is named after his old man. But that rule is flexible under special circumstances (if Sirius I died young).

While it WOULD seem normal to name the eldest son after the father - NONE of the repeating names in the Black family go to a child that way. There are not any 'Juniors'.

It apparently is more the habit in the Black family to name your son after your brother (as is the case for Sirius II and Arcturus II) - or father (Cygnus II) if you don't have a brother - or uncle (Regulus II) if your brother was a squib

Interestingly enough - usually none of the repeated names come originally from an older son or traditional heir. MOST come from someone who should NOT be the heir - the second son (or at least younger son). It seems to be almost a 2nd chance for the name to inherit something, since in two cases the repeated name is given to the eldest child (Sirius II and Arcturus II). In one case where it doesn't go to an eldest son (Regulus II) the eldest son also has an inherited name.

Sirius III is the exception. He is named for someone who was an eldest son and 'should' be the traditional heir, altho' 'I' actually wonder if Sirius II was not the heir even tho' tradition said he should be - since I think the house ended up going through his youngest brother Cygnus' line (possibly by Cygnus marrying off his son Pollux at a very young age to get the first grandson for Phineas) through to Sirius III's mother.

It is interesting that Orion names BOTH of his children after someone in the past (who possibly didn't inherit). Regulus II fits the usual pattern of naming the child after a second son of the past. But Sirius III is named after what should have been the traditional heir (Orion's grandfather), but whom I think actually didn't inherit.

I do wish they'd find a way to confirm those dates

Maybe this is our best clue that the dates are "off."

it would be totally alien to the tone of these books if we - if I got into - erm - too - too - grittily realistic an area that, you know - we're - we're not going to be looking at teenage pregnancy here, we're not going to be looking at drug-taking here, you know, this would be totally alien to the spirit of these books.

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc2.htm

I think last of the Potters means last of the male Potters who can carry on the Potter name.
I concede this possible interpretation. But to be honest, the context seems to suggest the "last Potter" protected by Fidelius and betrayed by Wormtail.

While it WOULD seem normal to name the eldest son after the father - NONE of the repeating names in the Black family go to a child that way. There are not any 'Juniors'.

It apparently is more the habit in the Black family to name your son after your brother (as is the case for Sirius II and Arcturus II) - or father (Cygnus II) if you don't have a brother - or uncle (Regulus II) if your brother was a squib

Interestingly enough - usually none of the repeated names come originally from an older son or traditional heir. MOST come from someone who should NOT be the heir - the second son (or at least younger son). It seems to be almost a 2nd chance for the name to inherit something, since in two cases the repeated name is given to the eldest child (Sirius II and Arcturus II). In one case where it doesn't go to an eldest son (Regulus II) the eldest son also has an inherited name.

Sirius III is the exception. He is named for someone who was an eldest son and 'should' be the traditional heir, altho' 'I' actually wonder if Sirius II was not the heir even tho' tradition said he should be - since I think the house ended up going through his youngest brother Cygnus' line (possibly by Cygnus marrying off his son Pollux at a very young age to get the first grandson for Phineas) through to Sirius III's mother.

It is interesting that Orion names BOTH of his children after someone in the past (who possibly didn't inherit). Regulus II fits the usual pattern of naming the child after a second son of the past. But Sirius III is named after what should have been the traditional heir (Orion's grandfather), but whom I think actually didn't inherit.
Wow. I never noticed that when I read the tree!

I wonder if the Blacks gave everything to the first born son or divided things between brothers? The Blacks seem to favor the sons even though all the children should seen be as the same. The only difference is the gender.

The only information we have on that was given by Dumbledore in HBP, chapter three.
The house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of Black. About how gold and such was herited we know nothing.

While it WOULD seem normal to name the eldest son after the father - NONE of the repeating names in the Black family go to a child that way. There are not any 'Juniors'.

It apparently is more the habit in the Black family to name your son after your brother (as is the case for Sirius II and Arcturus II) - or father (Cygnus II) if you don't have a brother - or uncle (Regulus II) if your brother was a squib

Interestingly enough - usually none of the repeated names come originally from an older son or traditional heir. MOST come from someone who should NOT be the heir - the second son (or at least younger son). It seems to be almost a 2nd chance for the name to inherit something, since in two cases the repeated name is given to the eldest child (Sirius II and Arcturus II). In one case where it doesn't go to an eldest son (Regulus II) the eldest son also has an inherited name.

Sirius III is the exception. He is named for someone who was an eldest son and 'should' be the traditional heir, altho' 'I' actually wonder if Sirius II was not the heir even tho' tradition said he should be - since I think the house ended up going through his youngest brother Cygnus' line (possibly by Cygnus marrying off his son Pollux at a very young age to get the first grandson for Phineas) through to Sirius III's mother.

It is interesting that Orion names BOTH of his children after someone in the past (who possibly didn't inherit). Regulus II fits the usual pattern of naming the child after a second son of the past. But Sirius III is named after what should have been the traditional heir (Orion's grandfather), but whom I think actually didn't inherit.
Maybe it's some kind of family tradition to name children after prominent Blacks from the past. That'd explain why some names turn up repeatedly. I can't see a clear pattern there, though. We don't see the rest of the tree which goes back to the Middle Ages, so it's difficult to say who the first Sirius, Arcturus, Cygnus ... was.