The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black

The only information we have on that was given by Dumbledore in HBP, chapter three.
The house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of Black. About how gold and such was herited we know nothing.
We know that Alphard (later blasted from the tree by his sister) had a 'decent bit of gold'. Whether it was inherited or whether he earned it during his life we don't know. If sons are favoured then he ought to have been Pollux's heir.

We know that Alphard (later blasted from the tree by his sister) had a 'decent bit of gold'. Whether it was inherited or whether he earned it during his life we don't know. If sons are favoured then he ought to have been Pollux's heir.
But he gave it to Sirius. ???

Did he give it to Sirius because he liked the kid? (As I thought.) Or is it because Sirius is the oldest male in the line? (Can't tell if he had any offspring.)

But he gave it to Sirius. ???

Did he give it to Sirius because he liked the kid? (As I thought.) Or is it because Sirius is the oldest male in the line? (Can't tell if he had any offspring.)


I assume that it was a fondness for Sirius more than anything. People don't usually give money to people who have just run away unless they like them.
That's how I see it, anyway. :)

There could be something deeper at work though.

And I love your sig. :lol:

Come to think of it, Alphard can't have inherited it from Pollux since Pollux outlived him. The only explanation is that Alphard was very well paid in life and did not support his sister's maligning of Sirius.

There could be something deeper at work though.

And I love your sig. :lol:

Oh, thank you! :)
And yes, there could be something else we don't know of, but I assume that Uncle Alphard might have just been one of those rare nice members of the Black family. You never know, though...;)

Come to think of it, Alphard can't have inherited it from Pollux since Pollux outlived him. The only explanation is that Alphard was very well paid in life and did not support his sister's maligning of Sirius.
:elaugh: Those crazy dates...

Talk about a disfunctional family.

Hello, I did not know that Sirius was related to the Malfoys.
What book did it mention that?

Hello, I did not know that Sirius was related to the Malfoys.
What book did it mention that?In Order of the Phoenix, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black---when Sirius and Harry are discussing the tapestry.

Come to think of it, Alphard can't have inherited it from Pollux since Pollux outlived him. The only explanation is that Alphard was very well paid in life and did not support his sister's maligning of Sirius.Not to mention that Cygnus, father of Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Andromeda was Pollux's eldest son, according to the dates on the tapestry---Cygnus was at least older than Walburga {but since dear Walburga burned off the interesting stuff...:grumble: }...and Cygnus is listed as having died two years after Pollux, and seven years after Walburga.

We know that Alphard had to have died in the mid to late seventies...he left the gold to Sirius {age 16}.

I think Sirius was 17 when he inherited from Aphard. That would have been around 1977.

Not to mention that Cygnus, father of Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Andromeda was Pollux's eldest son, according to the dates on the tapestry---Cygnus was at least older than Walburga {but since dear Walburga burned off the interesting stuff...:grumble: }...and Cygnus is listed as having died two years after Pollux, and seven years after Walburga.
Did I miss something? The tapestry birthdates for Walburga and Cygnus are 1925 and 1938 respectively. There might have been a maths error for JKR or a copying error for Aberforth but there's no evidence that she got the birth order of Pollux's children wrong.

I think Sirius was 17 when he inherited from Aphard. That would have been around 1977.Just a note tho' - that doesn't mean that's when Alphard died necessarily. Since 17 is the age a wizard becomes an adult, it is also entirely possibly that Alphard had died earlier, leaving Sirius money that could not be touched until he turned 'of age'. This is actually something often done when leaving a child a great deal of money.

But I DO understand that you were saying this to prove that Alphard died before his father Pollux died in '90. However, Alphard could also have still inherited HIS money from someone other than his own father - his grandfather perhaps? We've only been told about inheritance tradition in regards to the HOUSE (which seems to include the heirlooms) - for all we know there haven't ever been any limitations on to whom one leaves their MONEY.

Just a note tho' - that doesn't mean that's when Alphard died necessarily. Since 17 is the age a wizard becomes an adult, it is also entirely possibly that Alphard had died earlier, leaving Sirius money that could not be touched until he turned 'of age'. This is actually something often done when leaving a child a great deal of money.

But I DO understand that you were saying this to prove that Alphard died before his father Pollux died in '90. However, Alphard could also have still inherited HIS money from someone other than his own father - his grandfather perhaps? We've only been told about inheritance tradition in regards to the HOUSE (which seems to include the heirlooms) - for all we know there haven't ever been any limitations on to whom one leaves their MONEY.
But Harry inhereted Grimmauld Place and Sirius's massive estate when he was when he was under 17. For that matter Harry inherited the Potter etate and was able to use it for Hogwarts and when he needed fancy clothes (Yule Ball robes).
The only reason I see for Alphard leaving Sirius some money is because Sirius was on his own after he left his parents house. Otherwise Sirius would not need money because he would eventually inherit his parents estate.
May be Alphard thought differently about Sirius than the rest of the Black faimily. May be he got a kick out of Sirius's antics and adventures and left him the money.

Since 17 is the age a wizard becomes an adult, it is also entirely possibly that Alphard had died earlier,
Good point.

Yeah, I camped out at your dad's in the school holidays, and when I was seventeen I got a place of my own. My Uncle Alphard had left me a decent bit of gold - he's been wiped off here, too, that's probably why - anyway, after that I looked after myself.

There's no way to tell when Alphard died, except that it was before Sirius turned 17. Sirius suggests that leaving him gold was the reason that Alphard got blasted off the tapestry. Interesting. So was Alphard a respectable Dark Wizard who got blasted posthumously? If he passed away childless before Sirius left home, he wouldn't have any reason not to pass some part of his fortune to his eldest nephew. Childlessness is difficult to determine from the tapestry, though.

Did I miss something? The tapestry birthdates for Walburga and Cygnus are 1925 and 1938 respectively. There might have been a maths error for JKR or a copying error for Aberforth but there's no evidence that she got the birth order of Pollux's children wrong.Nope...I made a mistake.:grumble:

I made my own version of the paper tapestry and copied the numbers wrong...

We still don't know if Alphard was older or younger than Cygnus...And I'm still unhappy with the dates---the young parenthoods which occur on the tapestry. Beyond that, we know that Alphard died before his father did, which means his money probably came from a source other than inheritence from dear old dad.

The fact that Sirius tells us 'He's been wiped off here too---that's probably why' tells me that Sirius wasn't living at home when it occurred, otherwise he wouldn't be guessing why Alphard had been burned off the Tapestry---he'd already know the reason.

The fact that Sirius tells us 'He's been wiped off here too---that's probably why' tells me that Sirius wasn't living at home when it occurred, otherwise he wouldn't be guessing why Alphard had been burned off the Tapestry---he'd already know the reason.
Great point. May be Sirius is just guessing. He knows his cousin Andromeda was blasted off for marrying Ted Tonks.

I just noticed the family tree says that Ted was a Muggle. Doesn't Tonks say that her dad was Muggle-born?

I was also wondering about Marius, the Squib who was blasted off. He was a Black male. If he had sons, would they be considered Blacks or would they be out of the family because Marius was blasted off?

I was also wondering about Marius, the Squib who was blasted off. He was a Black male. If he had sons, would they be considered Blacks or would they be out of the family because Marius was blasted off?
It seems to be it was just Walburga doing the blasting. Sirius says the whole family were Dark Wizards who wanted to get rid of Muggleborns and persecute Muggles and so forth, however we have some hint that this wasn't entirely true. Several relatives marry Muggles or Muggleborns, one supported Muggle rights and Regulus could have tried to do something to bring down Voldemort. So do we know for sure that Marius was disowned by his immediate family, or just by his niece?

It seems to be it was just Walburga doing the blasting. Sirius says the whole family were Dark Wizards who wanted to get rid of Muggleborns and persecute Muggles and so forth, however we have some hint that this wasn't entirely true. Several relatives marry Muggles or Muggleborns, one supported Muggle rights and Regulus could have tried to do something to bring down Voldemort. So do we know for sure that Marius was disowned by his immediate family, or just by his niece?True, Sirius has a very one sided view of his family. I think Marius was blasted off because he was a Squib. Jo Rowling says something about Squibs blasted off in her F.A.Q.
none of these families is really 'pure' – in other words, they merely cross Muggles and Squibs off the family tree and pretend that they didn't exist. In light of this, it may be the rule that Squibs are blasted off.

I was also wondering about Marius, the Squib who was blasted off. He was a Black male. If he had sons, would they be considered Blacks or would they be out of the family because Marius was blasted off?
Might depend on their magical ability, or lack thereof. If his children showed no magic ability, there probably wouldn't be any reason to acknowledge them at all (they would essentially be Muggles).

Might depend on their magical ability, or lack thereof. If his children showed no magic ability, there probably wouldn't be any reason to acknowledge them at all (they would essentially be Muggles).I would also be interested in seeing how the Blacks would go about recognizing them. It would be a bit weird if they just suddenly showed up on the Black tree and at Black and pure-blood functions, people would talk.

Maybe you pretend, and there's a sort of "gentelmn's agreement" between the old families that when a "long lost cousin" shows up, it's taken to mean a child of a squib and no one asks questions. Then you just choose a spot on the tapestry, write them in as a descendant of an obscure Black, arrange a wedding between them and a Black daughter, and call it a day.

It would be awkward though.

Edit: as would be my grammar :p

Mafalda
As the magical daughter of a Squib, she is proof that Squibs can produce witches and wizards...but we don't know if that's "normal" or something unusual (and at this point, I'm rather doubting we will find out...:shrug: ). I can't think of any other example, though. No mentions of offspring by Filch or Figg and no other known Squibs beyond them and the "stockbroker" (my book says "accountant", but JKR's website says "stockbroker"...guess Ron was a little mixed up :D ).Maybe you pretend they's a sort of "gentelmen's agreement" between the old families that when a "long lost cousin" shows up, it's taken to mean a child of a squib, and no one asks questions. :lol: That sounds possible! I can also see them denying the relationship, though, and tossing them out on their ear!
Then you just choose a spot on the tapestry, write them in as a descendant to an obscure Black, arrange a wedding between them and a Black daughter, and call it a day.It would be easier to deal with the female offspring, wouldn't it? :evil:

Is the entire thing up, or is everyone still speculating based on that corner? If the whole thing is up, can someone post a link. I don't want to dig through 62 pages for it. Thanks!

Due to a bit of spy work at Leaky and the Lexicon we now have the entire thing, blast marks included. I've personally been using grrliz's (http://cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29811&d=1140494244) version. :)

Mafalda, in the unused drsaft, was a Slytherin, and apparently an extremely talented pain in the neck. Is it possible for the Marius to be a second cousin to the Weasleys?
I've never understood Consanguinity (I'm looking at the Wikipedia chart right now), but Cedrella Weasley (Arthur's mom I think) was Marius's Cousin (burn marks three and four). As Arthur Weasley and Marius's kids (say for instance the hypothetical stock broker) had the same great grand parents they would be second cousins. If I've gotten everything right (though inaccuracy is a very real possibility as this system makes very little sense to me), I think you've got yourself a very nice catch, or possible one anyway. :)

Due to a bit of spy work at Leaky and the Lexicon we now have the entire thing, blast marks included. I've personally been using grrliz's (http://cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29811&d=1140494244) version. :)You might want to check here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamilytree.html There has actually been a correction since the version you had (Lucretia was born in '25 - not '15)

As for Malfada - JKRs website say "Mafalda was the daughter of the 'second cousin who's a stockbroker' mentioned in 'Philosopher's Stone'." So, she MIGHT have come from Marius' line.

However, she is distinctly referred to as a 'Weasley' cousin, which seems to imply that she comes from the Weasley line, instead of Marius' line.

So, somewhat undecisive whether she comes from Marius' line or a Weasley squib .

I've never understood Consanguinity (I'm looking at the Wikipedia chart right now), but Cedrella Weasley (Arthur's mom I think) was Marius's Cousin (burn marks three and four). As Arthur Weasley and Marius's kids (say for instance the hypothetical stock broker) had the same great grand parents they would be second cousins. If I've gotten everything right (though inaccuracy is a very real possibility as this system makes very little sense to me), I think you've got yourself a very nice catch, or possible one anyway. :)
You are correct. A child of Marius would be Arthur Weasley's second cousin given that Cedrella was his mother. Mafalda would have to be Marius' granddaughter in that case, since her surname was intended to be Brook rather than Black.

I just feel sorry for Squibs. To grow up thinking that you are a wizard and finding out at 11 that you are a Squib. The life you wanted you cannot have just because of how you were born.

It is hard to figure out how everyone is related . Like Sirius said, all the pureblood bluebloods are somewhat closely related since there aren't thousands of them. So they are all swimming in a very small gene pool.

You are correct. A child of Marius would be Arthur Weasley's second cousin given that Cedrella was his mother. Mafalda would have to be Marius' granddaughter in that case, since her surname was intended to be Brook rather than Black.
But Ron said that it was his Mum's second cousin. So Mafalda would be more closely related to the Prewitts than the Weasleys. So I don't think her father was a Black.

Mafalda would have to be Marius' granddaughter in that case, since her surname was intended to be Brook rather than Black.:huh: I haven't seen that quote, that it was Mafalda Brook...can you post the link, please?
[Ron says]"I think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never talk about him." Since Ron is wrong about the Squib relative's job, he could have been wrong about which side of the family, too.

Mafalda (Goblet of Fire)
I have spoken before now about the Weasley cousin who made it quite a long way into 'Goblet of Fire' before I cut her. I really liked her as a character and did not want to sacrifice her, but she just wasn't doing the job she was supposed to do so she had to go.

Mafalda was the daughter of the 'second cousin who's a stockbroker' mentioned in 'Philosopher's Stone'. This stockbroker had been very rude to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley in the past, but now he and his (Muggle) wife had inconveniently produced a witch, they came back to the Weasleys asking for their help in introducing her to wizarding society before she starts at Hogwarts. The Weasleys agreed to taking her for part of the Summer, including the Quidditch World Cup, but regretted this almost immediately. Mrs. Weasley suspected that Mafalda's parents simply wanted to get rid of her for a while, because she turns out to be the most unpleasant child Mrs. Weasley has ever met.

Mafalda was supposed to convey certain information about the Death Eaters to Harry, Ron and Hermione, because as a nosy, eavesdropping Slytherin who likes to impress, she does not keep her mouth shut when she overhears their sons and daughters talking. Unfortunately, however bright I made her, there were obvious limitations to what an eleven year old closeted at school could discover, whereas Rita Skeeter, whom I subsequently built up to fulfil Mafalda's function, was much more flexible.

The best thing about Mafalda was that she was a match for Hermione. To the latter's horror, Mafalda was highly gifted and a real show-off, so that Hermione was torn between deploring the rule-breaking and longing to join in and beat her.
Mafalda is the daughter of a Squib, not a granddaughter...

:huh: I haven't seen that quote, that it was Mafalda Brook...can you post the link, please?
I'm pretty sure I read it in an interview somewhere. I'll hunt for it later if I get time. Anyway, the point was she'd have been a Black if she were Marius' daughter so she's either from Molly's side or the Weasley side (ie not Cedrella's).

People make their one judgments in the end


magija

Mafalda is the daughter of a Squib, not a granddaughter...
But doesn't that assume that the child of a squib is automatically a muggle. Marius's hypothetical son, the stockbroker, having descended from a highly magical family like the Blacks, may also have managed to retain some of the magical ability that squibs seem to posess i.e., seeing Dementors.

There are second generation wizards, second generation muggles, why not second generation squibs that would allow the stockbroker to be a Black descendant and "squib" father of Mafalda? You might want to check here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamilytree.html There has actually been a correction since the version you had (Lucretia was born in '25 - not '15)I've seen the lexicon's but I saved the other, thanks for the tip and I will of course (as always) keep "MIGHT" in mind in these discussions. :p

I'm pretty sure I read it in an interview somewhere. I'll hunt for it later if I get time. Anyway, the point was she'd have been a Black if she were Marius' daughter so she's either from Molly's side or the Weasley side (ie not Cedrella's).Well, I'm not sure if there's surname canon but if her last name isn't Black (though it would be Black because she's Marius's son's [stockbroker's] daughter, not because she's Marius's daughter) that could be a reason against her being the Grandaugher of Marius and a member of the House of Black.

Then again, it depends on how you go about removing a squib from the family. If Squibs can keep the name, then it's an inconsistency, if a change is forced (which shouldn't be difficult to do to an 11 year old), then that could account for the difference in names. Squibs do get to remain a part of the magical community and a squib walking around with 'Black' attached to himself might tip off other pure-bloods that the Blacks ne sont pas toujours pur.

I don’t think if Marius had any magical children that they would be put on the tree. Look at it this way, a fanatical Pure-blood is not going to marry a Squib. There fore if Marius had any magical children their mother would have had to have been

a.Muggle born
b. Muggle
c.Pureblood but who would have been considered a traitor
d. squib
e 1/2 blood

None of those options would have gotten any Magical child of Marius on the tree as they would be tainted with muggle blood or blood traitor, or have 2 squib parents a shame to the family.

I wonder what Mafalda would be considered Squib + muggle = squiggle

Maybe you pretend, and there's a sort of "gentelmn's agreement" between the old families that when a "long lost cousin" shows up, it's taken to mean a child of a squib and no one asks questions. Then you just choose a spot on the tapestry, write them in as a descendant of an obscure Black, arrange a wedding between them and a Black daughter, and call it a day.
That sounds possible! I can also see them denying the relationship, though, and tossing them out on their ear!I agree. Can you really see someone like old Walburga turning a blind eye to the fact that someone's ansectors were Squibs?

Mafalda has been written out of the story, so perhaps her connections to Mollys family have been sturck out too. Marius might have other connections to the wizarding world

Please continue discussion in version 2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3756449#post3756449), thank you. :)