The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black

There is so much to say about the Black family heritage, and the significance of Sirius coming from such a family, not to mention that he was related to the Malfoys, Tonks and Molly. What do people think?

*cough*plotpoint*cough*

I couldn't believe Sirius's family was so... evil! No wonder people were convinced he was a Death Eater!

But I wasn't too suprised. I figured that to keep it all in pure-blood familys, pure-bloods would have to *shudder* marry cousins.

Dumbleedore is right. I can't believe I didn't realise they'd all be related.
But Bellatrix "heavy lidded" Lestrange as Sirius' couisin? That was a shocker.

I like that the Weasleys are related to the Malfoys and Blacks. That relationship is just going to get worse.

I'd love to be at a pure-blood wizard christmas table... can you imagine trying to organise the seating? *evil laugh* Or what about a wedding, trying to figure out what side they should be on...

Ok, i'll stop now...

I just want to find out more about Sirius's brother (name escapes me, books too long).

Did we get sirius's mother/fathers or grandfathers name?

Did Regulus die whilst Sirius was at Hogwarts, did he even attend the school? How did a brothers death affect him....especially as he was a deatheater? Is this foreshadowing Percy/Ron?

i think probably most of the Black family members (except Sirius)meddled in dark magic and were in the Slytherin house when they were studying in Hogwarts because in the Black's house at Grimmauld Place ,their house was decorated with ornaments in the shape of serpents.plus,Sirius's brother became a death eater and his mother really loathed the mudbloods.

Silly question maybe...

Were the Potters purebloods? Before Harry I mean? If so, are they related to the Weasleys and the Blacks?

Was anyone else surprised by the detail in Black family tree??

Narsisa being Siruis' cousin? and the Lestrange woman??

I am going to have to reread that area of the book to recall even more details.

Sirius is also related to the Weasley's. Second cousin to Molly I think he said. So technically... Ron and Draco are related! Weird...

Guess this is the right topic for my question/thought..

Sirius did say that the purebloods are all a kind of related to eachother..
makes me wonder where to place Snape....

any thougths???

I guess everyone who thought Sirius and Snape were related are right (in a sense)...

I was really shocked too! I actually gasped when I found out he was related to Narcissa. And it's strange to think that Draco and ron are related, no matter how distantly it may be. I was also pretty shocked to find he was related to Bellatrix Lestrange. He's realted to so many horrible people... Good thing that he didn't turn out that way, even if he was outcast for not being like them.

The more we read these books, the more they sound like good old Elizabethan England, with aristocrats and the masses. Poor Sirius! I am still completely flabbergasted at the amount of information we got on him only to find that it's now virtually useless, if you get my drift.

I assume Snape is a pureblood, although I dont particularly remember that being clearly stated.

These aren't blood relations, the majority, as Narcissa married into the Malfoys, Sirius isn't related to Lucius, and therefore Draco, by blood.

I thought, for a family, they were a rather dark one. Sirius was one of the few good ones, and Bellatrix can have no feelings (Bellatrix Lestrange) of loyalty to her family, only Voldemort, as she gave a scream of triumph when she killed Sirius, for which I hate her.

This I just cant understand, no matter how much you hate a family member you have to love them deep down, and even if you dislike them you should be a little bit remorseful for their death - but she seems heartless, apart from to Voldemort. This makes me wonder what drives them to Voldemort, what could be missing, or what religion/beliefs they hold for this betrayal.

I think the relationship is between Black, Narcissa, Belliatrix and an Tonks is interesting. It makes me wonder though if Black is indeed related to the Potters. It also made the death of Sirius more poignant.

Peace,
Tsar

i meant to say earlier, and forgot, that i thought it was vaguely interesting that their family motto was in french, 'toujour pur' meaning always/forever pure. she might have done it, of course, for the 'mystery'...or alternatively, pointing out they are an old family. there's probably nothign behind it, i just found it interesting she broke away from the latin-based theme

i was surprised at sirius' family heritage and by how intertwined the pureblood families are/were

~remember sirius~

I wasn't surprised at all by Sirius' family. I had never even thought of it before, but as soon as I read it, it seemed obvious. I wonder how he managed to ignore all the pureblood **** he was raised with?

As for the Potters being purebloods, it could be like what Sirius said about the Weasleys.

I actually never gave much thought to his family before, but I was really surprised by it. And when Bellatrix was delighted with herself for killing Sirius, I wanted to get into the book and deck her! I mean, she just killed her own cousin! I'm not saying I thought Death Eaters would care about something like that, but all the same I was infuriated.

I don't think the fact that Sirius came from a dark family really surprised me all that much, because I had always just had a feeling that he came from a dark family. But being related to Bellatrix Lestrange? That was a complete shocker. I'd have thought that a dark heretege like that would have been mentioned by someone when he escaped Azkaban, you know, something like "That Sirius Black, no surprise he turned evil, look at his family!" Or Malfoy would have at least shown some pride at being related to someone that suposedly murdered thirteen people with one curse. That is if he knows that they're related... I wonder if Draco even has a clue? What do you think?

I really loved the detail that JK put into the Black family tree and family heritage. I like to dabble in genealogy, so seeing the tapestry and other family artifacts thrilled me. I was quite surprised to see how Narcissa, Bellatrix, Sirius, Tonks, and Molly are all related. But then I was hitting myself for never truly comprehending the likeness between the pure-bloods and other aristocratic circles-- it makes a lot of sense that they all all related somehow.

So, the onny person not related to anyone else is Hermione...

Does this all mean that I can be right about Dumbledore being related to harry? :)

I didn't know the Potters were related to the Blacks, so it seems Harry is out of the tree as well.

Originally posted by Thayet (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388615#post388615))
These aren't blood relations, the majority, as Narcissa married into the Malfoys, Sirius isn't related to Lucius, and therefore Draco, by blood.

Sirius is indeed related to Draco, because Draco's mother was a Black. It's only Lucius he's not related to ... at least, not closely enough to have appeared on the part of the "family tree" Harry saw.

Originally posted by zent (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=389892#post389892))
I didn't know the Potters were related to the Blacks, so it seems Harry is out of the tree as well.


Yes, the fact that the Potters weren't on the tree -- and you'd think that Harry would've looked for James' family, first thing -- is significant. It's likely that there have been Muggles in the Potter family for a long time, making the Blacks and Malfoys (although not the Weasleys) unwilling to intermarry with them. This might even explain why Harry's last name is so "ordinary": James' father or grandfather might've been a Muggle.

Seems to me I always subconsciously thought Sirius came from a dark family, by the name "black." I just never took interest.

Looks like the notebook on Sirius and his family JKR wrote was poured out in this book! I should have realised why she took such a focus on the family connections in the first place, and the one-too-often mention of Bellatrix.

Sirius's family totally shocked me. To tell the truth I had never really given his family too much thought, I was always too preoccupied with the Potters. The fact that he somehow emerged from this family as a decent person amazes me and adds greater feeling to his death.

Its quite strange but despite the fact that she has only appeared in the twice out of the 5 books so very briefly I have a deep burning hatred for Bellatrix Lestrange that I never thought I could feel for a fictional character. I hated her for what she did to Neville's parents, and this hatred grew when we saw them in St Mungo's but killing Sirius just topped it off. If she is not killed (brutally and painfully if at all possible) by the end of the series I will be extremely ****** off!

I was surprised at his family connections. But I really enjoyed the part about the family tree. IT is interesting, but it makes sense that the pure-blood families are all related.

I wouldn't be shocked if Sirius isn't related to more people who we know. It was only the evil ones who were obsessed with pureness of bloos who made it one the tree. I wouldn't be shocked if the Longbottoms and maybe even the potters are related to the Blacks too (if the Potters are Purebloods).

Blacks family seemed to be in Slytherine, as shown by the "most unpopular headmaster of Hogwarts ever". Do we know yet which houses all the Mauraders were in?

At first I was totally taken aback by Sirius's family tree. I had never really given much thought to his family. But to learn that were on the same wave-length as the Malfoy's(pure-blood, all the way). Made me respect Sirius even more. His family had been like that for generations but he was able to defy them and leave home. The way he died may also prove to be an everlasting burden. As there is nobody left to carry on the family name and how he died in battle-fighting the good fight.

Glad to see I wasn't the only one completely taken aback by this. It is strange to see that Sirius came from such a family and shunned it... how did he do that? Does this prove that people can change? Why didn't he notice his similarities with Snape in that case? How come - if the pure-blood familys are 'all' related in some way the Snapes and the Potters and the Dumbledores - are they not pureblood then, or did Harry just not look closely enuff? Is it not true that they are 'all' related in some way? I hope we'll be seeing more of that tapestry.

Like everyone else, I don't know why the various relatives came as such a shock--Ron said right in the first book that wizards would die out if they didn't intermix with Muggles and Muggleborns. But I always sort of thought James came from pure-blood purist stock, and Sirius's parents were more tolerant.

This question hardly has anything to do with the Blacks...well...I guess it might...but in the book they said that Harry was half-blood, as was Voldemort. However, both Harry's parents were wizards, even though Lily was muggle-born. Wouldn't that mean that Harry was pure blood?

It saddened me to learn of Sirius's past/family in OOTP, but it didn't really surprise me. I've also figured there was a lot of unpleasant stuff, and sure enough, there was. :(

It makes sense in many ways that Black came from a rather shady/dark arts background. I wasn't at all disappointed because he went against this crazy family and still emerged as a fairly sane and caring individual that sided with the good guys. I loved seeing the Black family tree just because it was very interesting to hear about the lineage. It's cool that Tonks is his relative, and I was surprised to see the relation to the Malfoys. The relation to the Weasleys is kind of a stretch since they're very distant relatives, but Draco is related directly through his mother (who is Sirius' cousin), and that was a big revelation for me. Anyway, all of this dark family history just seemed to show how much Sirius overcame in his life -- everything was a struggle for him, even growing up.

Sirius's family must have been furious when he was sorted into Gryffindor (wasn't he?) and not Slytherin. It must have been quite a shock to his dear old mother.

Just a question...If it was the house of Black, then why was his mother, who married into the House of Black, screaming about the blood traitors and mudbloods contaiminating the house of her fathers? Her fathers didn't live there.

It was so cool to see how he was related to so many people. But how can you be a cousin by marriage?? Please explain that to me! I wish someone made the family tree, like Tolkien did in LOTR!!

You can be a cousin-by-marriage to someone by marrying their blood cousin.
I thought all the omissions, or should I say deletions from the Black family tree were also interesting. it may be through these that the good wizards are related.

I would think that Harry, while looking closely at this tree, would have noticed "Potter" on there. That makes me believe that the Potter family is NOT pureblooded.

Also, same with Snape. Wouldn't Harry have seen? I don't think the Snapes are pureblood. Maybe mostly, but not good enough for the "Noble and Ancient House of Black". Strange, how Rowling left all of this open. Is Harry related to Sirius? Is Sirius related to Snape? No telling...

OMG! I just realized that! Bella and Sirius were cousins... and she killed him.... what a :censored: :censored: (use your imagination!)

I was like, "No way!" when I read the chapter on Sirius' family tree. Can you just imagine the look on Draco's face if he ever found out he was related to Ron? I know that its very distant but its still funny. I was surprised that the Weasleys and the Malfoys were related to the Blacks... A lot of people are wondering about the Potter's bloodline. I always thought the Potters were a pure-blood family... Harry has to be a pure-blood because Lily and James were both Wizards. So why did Bellatrix keep calling him a half-blood? Speaking of Bellatrix... Grr... Just thinking about her makes me angry. I really hope she kicks the bucket in the next book. Too add on to the Potters... JKR said that Harry recieved the Invisibility Cloak from his father who got it from his father and so on and so forth. This gives me more reason to believe that they're pure-blood or at least the men were Wizards. I can't see any Muggles walking around with an Invisibility Cloak!

if the malfoys are related to Sirius, surely Draco would have been shouting his connection in the loudest voice that his cousin was a mass murderer - will harry let slip that they are related and watch his reaction?
Finally, the only desirable things left in it were the tapestry of the Black family tree, which resisted all their attampts to remove it from the wall
could there be something behind the tapestry, or that the removed names might be magical replaced using the natures nobility:a wizarding genealogy
wouldn't we love to work out a Potter family tree with that book

i think harry is half blood because lily was muggleborn. i think pure blood implies that there have been no muggle/muggle born wizards in *** family ever.

also think that perhaps not EVERY single pure blood family were related, but probably a lot.

i'm curious to know what a 'blood traitor' is though, and why the weasleys' are such big ones. does it just mean associating with muggles like arthur?

I also was intrigued by the house of Black... I have a few theories that align with some things people have been saying... First, take note that Snape is not on the family tree (surely it would have stuck out at Harry if he were...) So this leads to the question, why? Well, Sirius said that people were blasted from the tree who disrupted the pure-blood tradition, or if they fell out of favor with the family. So either Snapes parentage is not fully magical (or not at all), or he (or an ancestor) did something to get themselves blasted off. As far as the Potters go... Regardless of whether or not James was a pureblood (which I think we know he is since Lily was a muggle and Harry is a half-blood), Lily was a muggle and James would have got blasted from the tree. We'll find out eventually, I'm sure. I'd also like to point out we saw no mention of the Crabbe, Goyle, or Parkinson family members on Sirius' tree...so maybe that's something? (By the way, I believe that Dumbledore is actually related to Harry...I wish book 6 came out tomorrow!)

A blood traitor is probably a person/family that does not go by the 'let's marry our cousins' rule, heh. Uhmm - basically one that finds nothing wrong with intermixing with muggles too.

If it was the house of Black, then why was his mother, who married into the House of Black, screaming about the blood traitors and mudbloods contaiminating the house of her fathers? Her fathers didn't live there.

They may have. She could have been some sort of cousin to her husband. In keeping the aristocratic family bloodlines "Toujours pur", they may well have been lots of intermarrying cousins.

Originally posted by Thayet (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388615#post388615))
I assume Snape is a pureblood, although I dont particularly remember that being clearly stated.



Snape must be a pureblood, because when Harry was viewing the memories in the Pensieve, Snape called Lilly a mudblood.

I also think that Dumbledore could be related to Harry... have I said that already?

Anyway, I think that if the Potters were on there they would have been blasted off. After all, James ran off with a muggleborn and his parents hardboured Sirius when he ran away... I don't suppose Sirius' mother would have liked them much!

Incidentally, I reckon that Sirius' mother is as much a hypocrite as many of the 'pureblood-only' wizards/witches with her 'house of my fathers' thing. She wants to feel a part of the Honourable House of Black so calls it the house of her fathers, when really it's not...

I wonder what Sirius' dad was like? <shudders>

Hmmm, sad really, another old blood family dead. No matter how horrible they are, the pure bloods are dying out.

Helhorns - but what makes a 'pureblood' a pureblood, really? Where does it all start? I go back to my 'were there cavemen wizards or something?' rant.

I'm wondering if all the other supposedly pureblood families have family tree tapestries/books now, or if that is one of a kind. I don't think Draco knew about being related to Sirius, or if he did, he didn't remember (after all, when you have that many relatives, who can?).

The names in the Black family are certainly interesting enough...

Originally posted by dumbleedore (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=387797#post387797))
I'd love to be at a pure-blood wizard christmas table... can you imagine trying to organise the seating? *evil laugh* Or what about a wedding, trying to figure out what side they should be on...

Ok, i'll stop now...

I just want to find out more about Sirius's brother (name escapes me, books too long).



Yeah.. It would be a very difficult job.... very difficult indeed...

So, because Lucius wasnt on the family tree, can we say that he isnt a pure-blood? or maybe he's a very distant realtive. And surely Ernie MacMillan should be on it too, cos he said he could trace his pure blood to medieval times. or maybe that was just a plot to try and get Harry to not attack him! I dunno, I think im just waffling!

Lucius was on the tree wasnt he?

(i dont ahve my book, i leant it to my friend.... :( )

I feel like pointing out that "pureblood" and "dark arts" aren't necessarily synonyms. Didn't Sirius say that most of his family / purebloods were shocked by just how far Voldemort was willing to go to purify wizard blood? I wish we knew why Sirius rejected all that pureblood mania instead of lapping it up like Draco. Maybe Dumbledore or Lupin will tell us.

Originally posted by raeredeyes (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=392893#post392893))
Lucius was on the tree wasnt he?

(i dont ahve my book, i leant it to my friend.... :( )


Yes, Lucius is on the tree but only because Narcissa married him.

I suppose we have to remember that the Black family tapestry is not a complete history of the geneology of the wizarding world. The family Malfoy would probably appear several generations back, which would make Narcissa and Lucius very distant cousins or something similar. I suppose it's much like the royal families of Europe -- they're all related to each other in the same incestuous way as all the Pureblooded witches and wizards are.

So you are saying that purebloods are all inbred?

Yes. "Inbred" probably isn't the most appropriate word, but they're all related to each other, certainly. If you don't believe me, take Sirius's word for it:

"The pure-blood families are all interrelated".

The Weasleys are probably related to Dumbledore.

Wasn't the Potter family all pure-bloods going back for generations? And if they are how come Harry has only one Petunia and Dudley left as relations?

marrying your cousin isnt necessarily inbreeding, perhaps its foolish of me to point out that my grandparents were cousins...

anyway! if every single pure blood family was related, that'd be a hell of a lot of names to stick on a tapestry, i mean you have all the foreign wizards too who im sure have the same pure mania as many of the english families, and im sure some intermarried with the english which could explain the lack of some names on the tapestry. the wizarding community is a big one, there have to be hundreds of families there, i cant see the choice being so narrow that every cousin marries each other...

as for whether Draco knows, im not sure he does, after all, he's part of the Malfoy family tree, and Narcissa married into it. so she would show up on the tapestry (if the Malfoy's had one) but HER cousins etc wouldnt necessarily be on it, as it was the Malfoy Tree and not the Black tree. and can you see Narcissa telling Draco about a cousin who "shamed" the family?

We can only persume Voldemort killed them off. I would like to know what became of James' parents!

Loz, there are 2 ways of looking at a pureblood, the sinister way, or the other way.

Evil way gives the impression that they are stronger, better, cleaner than the other mixed races, because they have no muggle blood running in them, making them weaker.

The other way of looking at it is purebloods are those true to their beliefs and the good side. Therefore they may have stronger powers, but personality wise they are worse, therefore arguing the pure bloods are weaker. Do you get what I mean?

;D i think that maybe the black family is related to salazar slytherin since that they supported salazar slytherin's view on only letting those who were born in the pureblood familyand their family house was decorated with serpents.

anyway it is just a thought.

But a lot of pureblooded families support Salazar Slytherin's views, and the symbol of Slytherin house is the serpent, and I'm sure a lot of the Blacks were slytherins, so . . . It could be a possibility, but somehow I doubt it.

I don't think so.
But I did get a shock when I found out that Siruis was related to all these Death Eaters [Bellatrix and especially Narcissa].
But I wouldn't count on it. Could be though.

We've never heard the name of Tom Riddle's mother (have we?). She could be one of the random names Sirius read out from the family tree, could be a little clue JKR might drop - although she would probably have been burned off it as her partner was a muggle

Also, Sirius said that all pure-blood families are related. So it's really possible in my opinion...

maybe, but i think probably not.
and pure-blod families being related, maybe the Blacks are but not that close to the direct line of salazar slytherin.
if the Blacks were really close to that line and Voldemort, i don't think the order of the phoenix would use the Black's house.
might be a bit stupid and revealing to do so.

Tom Riddle is the last decendent of Salazar Slytherin, which means funnily enough means that the Black family isn't related to him. As for your evidence since when are people likely to be related just because they have similar views? :rolleyes:

in my opinion the salazar slytherin's line(in other words voldemort)might be a distant relation to the black family,since most of the oldest pureblood families are supposed to be linked in some way or another.however i feel sorry for sirius,being a member of black family...

Helhorns - that's an interesting thought.

I wonder why Sirius never mentioned he had a brother before... I find this a bit disturbing.

Originally posted by Picko (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=393102#post393102))
Wasn't the Potter family all pure-bloods going back for generations? And if they are how come Harry has only one Petunia and Dudley left as relations?


Well, the Potter family may go back for generations, but I suppose that most of them died out, leaving the only remaining Potters: James Potter and his family. Apparently (I got this from the Lexicon -- great site) James didn't have a brother, as Sirius said that James's parents took him as "a second son". So, we can safely conclude that when James married Lily, and had Harry, they were the last remaining Potter family. Harry is related to Petunia Dursley through his mother, who was part of the Evans family, a Muggle family. Of course, Harry may still have very, very distant relatives, but Petunia may be his last direct relative.

what exactly does "Toujours pur (or is it per)" mean? it's on the tapestry in Grimmauld Place.

~*Natalie*~

it's okay i worked it out, toujours pur means "always pure" in french.

makes sense, doesn't it.

~*Natalie*~

I loved the family tree. It made me have a lot of respect for Sirius for getting out.

There are a lot of possible reasons why Snape was not on the tapestry.

1) He's not pureblood (his mudblood comment to Lily could come from the fact that he's in Slytherin where that sort of thing is expected. In fact, it would be a reason that the other SLytherins didn't stand up for him much. I know JKR keeps saying only purebloods go to Slytherin, but Riddle wasn't so that can't be right)

Or

2) He's a pureblood, but an unimportant one (maybe he's realted way back?). This would be another reason for Snape to feel jealous of Sirius et al.

And my favourite

3) He was originally on the tapestry but when Sirius went back to living there HE blasted Snape's name off the wall because he couldn't stand to be reminded of it. (Sure, he hasn't blasted off some of his other dubious relatives, but he REALLY hates Snape)

People like the Potter and Dumbledores would aslo have been blasted off the wall by the Blacks for being muggle-lovers etc.

With all the inbreeding it's a wonder they haven't all got extra heads! :)

I have another idea crazytaxi - this was discussed a while back, perhaps Snape's hereditry is not british - but European, therefore he is in-bred with a whole bunch of other Wizards and Witches ;)

Funny thing...in PoA, Rosmerta or somebody said that Sirius was the last person they'd expect to go to the dark side.

Now why the heck is that? Given his background and his school hobbies of bullying and feeding kids to werewolves....

Inkwolf, well yes..
But altough.. Maybe he was very kind and thoughtfull...

It is a difference between bullying kids and calling people mudbloods..
You saw very well how they reacted when Snape yelled Mudblood at Mrs.Potter (Before she could been called so).

Maybe she said that because he had so revolted from that background?

I've got a big feeling that Regulus is still alive and will definately be showing up soon. The death of his brother, in the Department of Mysteries, by the veil, by Bella will have his blood boiling.

Now whether he comes back on the good side or the bad side is a different question.

Off Topic

I wonder if Voldemort knows that Trelawny gave the prophecy? I wonder if he got his hands on her if he'd be able to squeeze it out of her with some sort of spell....?

Sorry about that jsut had to say it or I'd forget it.

Black's family tree may be extensive, but it probably does not contain every pure-blood wizarding person in Britain. For one thing, there would be way too few. For another, the brothers and sisters (and other realtives) of in-laws are not shown, just the ones who married into the family. So Balck may be related to a lot of people, but not everyone. I think of it as the family trees of the great royal houses of Europe, many intermarriages, but no one all-encompassing tree.

I vote for a Harry Potter Clue?

Here's a thought (just tossed out there, take it or leave it)

What if the Black line is actually through Sirius' mother? I don't remember if it ever says what his cousins' surname was. When she married, it might have been required that Sirius' father take the name of Black to carry on the name.

Like I said, just a thought.

That is intersting Jaenelle but how does that explain the ring with Black Crest on it that belonged to Sirius father although there may be another explanation. It could be that both sirius mother and father were both Blacks

Im really intrigued to see how Tonk's reacts to sirius's death, especially as it was bought about by her 2 'Aunties'. I think it would be quite fitting for Tonks, the last decent member of the Black family, to be the one who takes revenge on the Malfoys and the Lestranges. I hope we discover more about the relationship between the relatives in the family tree, I wonder what Draco thinks of 'Uncle Sirius', 'Aunt Bellatrix' and 'Cousin Tonks'!

I'm inclined to think that Draco doesn't know about these family connections. I wonder what Lucius thinks though. He must surely know?! I wish there was a graphical representation of the family tree in the book, lol.

Originally posted by Loz (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=412897#post412897))
I'm inclined to think that Draco doesn't know about these family connections. I wonder what Lucius thinks though. He must surely know?! I wish there was a graphical representation of the family tree in the book, lol.


Draco definately knows about the family connection. Remember in POA that Draco is taunting Harry that he (Draco) would do something about Sirius but Harry has no idea why he would want to go after him. Neither does Ron, so the story of Sirius betraying Harry's parents is not common knowledge(plus we are tole that later, but anyway...). Lucius would not let Draco know the story of what happened( and Draco does know) unless there was a good reason to explain why Draco would find out. And sharing a family tree is as good excuse as any.

Draco knows the story, but does he know that Sirius is his mother's cousin? That's an entierely different proposition.

hmm...:shutter:: related to Malfoy...lol, I wonder if Sirius is a discrase to the family name because he wasnt in Slytherin (James wouldnt have a best friend in Slytherin would he?) herm...

Originally posted by Jaenelle (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=406330#post406330))
Here's a thought (just tossed out there, take it or leave it)

What if the Black line is actually through Sirius' mother? I don't remember if it ever says what his cousins' surname was. When she married, it might have been required that Sirius' father take the name of Black to carry on the name.

Like I said, just a thought.


I doubt it. We know that Phineas Nigellus is Sirius's great great grandfather, probably from his grandmother's side. So, his grandmother married his grandfather (Mr. Black). I don't think that Sirius's father took the name of Black just to carry on the name -- unless he was threatened, which I doubt.

Remember in PoA,Madam Rosmerta said that if someone had told her Sirius was going to be evil when he grew up,she'd have said they'd had too much mead?It's truly admirable that he(and Tonks' mother) didn't buy into the pureblood nonsense,after what they must've grown up with.Guess it really proves that it takes a lot more than DNA linkage to make someone family to you(look at the Dursleys).Also,in PoA, Lupin called Harry 'the last of the Potters',which makes me suspect that James Potter,if not pureblood,was certainly the descendant of a very long line of wizards:though he could've been pureblood,even Muggle-mad wizards like the Weasleys don't have much experience with Muggles,or interaction with them,ergo no marrying them,which may be be why they're purebloods of heaven knows how many generations.Strange,though.Ron and Ginny being related to Malfoy.So finally,several pureblood wizarding families (including the Longbottoms)may remain that way ,as I said before,mainly thanks to lack of interaction with Muggles,and not prejudice.

Like JKR emphasises, it's all about choices, Tonk's mother chose to marry a muggleborn, and chose to not take the blood thing seriously.

I would love to meet Tonks' mother because her sisters murdered her cousin, perhaps some revenge?

And coming back the maybe Sirius blasted snape off the family tree, Sirius wouldn't do that! he hates the family and as he's not on it himself, he'll be glad Snape was on it because it would remind him why he hates him!

What I find odd is that potter is a muggle type name, not like "Black" "Malfoy" "weasley" "crouch" which makes me htink although there may be a long line of them, I don't htink they are pureblood, or they have perhaps mixed with more half wizards or muggleborns than the average pure blood.

Forgot to add,it's not only purebloods who go to Slytherin.Tom Riddle was in it because he was the heir of Slytherin!And James Potter,at least,was a Gryffindor (Harry's thoughts,OotP)so it's probable all our marauders were too.Lily Evans(to be Potter) we don't know about.But it's quite possible that the Sorting Hat saw inside Padfoot ,saw that he was different,put him in Gryffindor and that's what set the seal on the family hatred of him.As for James and Lily's parents,what happened to them?-they must've been dead by the time of the attack in Godric's Hollow,which is what left the Dursleys as Harry's only blood family.Did Voldemort go after Harry's grandparents?

Don't forget the Weasleys are pure blood and they aren't in Slytherin. The sorting hat doesn't look at blood, it looks at character and where to place the student so they can make the right choices according to the character.

no doubt we'll find out about the Potters, but that's another thread, and it's in danger of drifting, partly my fault...

Anyway I think it was because he was in Gryffindor that let them all down, but the Black family weren't as bad as they were made out, they didn't like muggles or muggle born's but remember Sirius said they didn't like the method's Voldemort used to get rid of them, even though they thought he had the right Idea.

BTW, "Toujours pur" doesn't mean always pure, it means "forever pure". juts nitpicking, don't mind me!

As Dumbledore says,it's not our abilities that define us,it's our choices.

It is is entirely possible that Voldemort went after James parents although I am sure if he went after the Evans as there would be no point to do so unless they were in fact a wizarding family and Petunia was a squib

It was weird to find out that sirius was related to so many people...I'm still not sure what to make of the weasly's being related to him...how come they never mentioned it before in book 3?

i don't care if Sirius was related to any of those evil persons and ron being related to draco and so on. Because just if you are related to somebody dosent mean anything. My brother is not anything like me. It is the choices one makes in life that you should group them in, not who they are related to; exspecally thoughs as distant as cousins and second cousins.

^ I totally agree. :)

Sirius's name meaning "the brightest star in the sky" definitely applies he was the brightest star in a dark, black, family. Sirius's first name is so "bright" while his last name is so dark...

I love your Sig Dogstar, and your avatar especially.

So yes, Sirius's family were monkeys. Which makes me all the more proud of him that he was able to rise above all of that. My poor, poor Padfoot...gone forever. But never forgotten. One day we will see him again in some way, I'm convinced of it.

Oh yea back on topic... I totally agree with what Dogstar just said. And just because Sirius is related to alot of pureblood families doesn't mean he's related to them all.

Musings on Sirius' lil' bro' :)

pg. 112. OOTP

Was he killed by an Auror?" Harry asked tentatively.
"Oh no," said Sirius. "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found otu after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death."

I am guessing that he was asked to kill Sirius. And knowing that Sirius is much more powerful and would likely do something horrible to him for trying, he backed out, which is saying something considering he chose to escape Voldemort instead of facing his brother.

Although there is definitely something fishy about his brother, for some reason I tend to think he isn't dead.....

EDIT: What happened to Andromeda? (the sister of Narcissa and Bellatrix, as well as the mother of Tonks)

Poor Sirius ... didn't have too good of a life, did he? The bad seems to far outweigh the good ... he hated his family (loathed, more like it), his best friend was killed, he got landed in prison for something he didn't do for 13 years, then he had to live off rats and table scraps for 2 years, then he spent the last 6 months of his life holed up at Grimmauld Place, then he was killed by his cousin.

Man!! :( That makes me so sad. I miss Sirius.

Seems like he had about three excellent years in there plus five other years with 9 months good and three awful. Not a good showing for someone who lived nearly four decades. But there were a couple of good eggs in the basket. For instance, cousin Andromeda and Uncle Adalhard.

I thought that 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' was one of the best chapters in the whole book. I also thought that JKR set up a whole life for Sirius because he was a fab character who had been slightly overlooked in the previous book and she wasn't going to be able to go into his past in detail after the fifth book because obviously he's dead and there'd be no point. I thought that this was an excellent way of building up our affection for Sirius before killing him off (it worked on me I cried for an hour after he fell through the veil)

You wanna take bets on that? With Tonks still around and with Harry seeking to reconnect with lost Marauders, James' past, and, therefore, Sirius' past should appear in the next two books, even if it doesn't figure prominently in them. I loved the family motto but as my French is slipping, does Toujours Pur mean "Forever Pure" as I think it does, or does it mean something else?

Toujours Pur - Always Pure

Has a slightly different meaning, doesn't it?

Oh, great Loz, thanks for clearing that up. I wondered what that meant :)

Anyway, fascinating discussion!
I am guessing that he was asked to kill Sirius. And knowing that Sirius is much more powerful and would likely do something horrible to him for trying, he backed out, which is saying something considering he chose to escape Voldemort instead of facing his brother.
That's an interesting thought, Ecthelion - but ithink that could mean any number of things. I think Sirius' brother just entered the service of Voldemort, thinking of the glory of it, and as a benign sort of way of getting Muggles and muggle borns out of office -- but from the description, it seems like he was just "soft" and probably stupid -- i was thinking more along the lines of him not being aware of the use of the Unforgivable curses - if he joined voldemort early on, it seems that he could've been unaware of how evil he really was.

"They weren't alone either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea. They got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though."

Sounds like Regulus was just like one of these people... you could be right, though.

***

On the note of family trees - i found that bit fascinating, but two questions:

a) Can anyone here explain to me what a "second cousin" is, and what "once removed" means? I never understood what either meant. And -

b) Is there a drawn up family tree of the black family anywhere around the net? Of course, i'd do my own, but then, i'm confused with the whole "once removed", and all that.

Seerius, go to the Harry Potter Lexicon (don't have the address on me but search for it on yahoo, I'm sure it'll come up) ..they have the Black Family Tree written up on there. It might also help explain what "once removed" means, though I'll give it a shot, because I wasn't too sure myself though I think I know now.


Once removed is like... Say my first cousin has a son... my cousin's son is then my first cousin but once removed. But then isn't he supposed to be my 2nd cousin? ...Man that confuses me as well..**** nevermind what I just said just check the Lexicon, it'll help.

Thanks for that, glass roses :)

I just thought i'd post the link for anyone intersted:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/black-family-tree.html << family tree of black

Anyway, i still don't completey get it, but i'm working on it... *stares at f tree*

Hey, sorry for the double post, but i just thought i'd share something that explains second cousins, and "___removed" pretty well.

First cousins are persons who share a set of grandparents (but aren't siblings).

Second cousins share a set of great-grandparents (but aren't first cousins or siblings).

Third cousins....g-g-grandparents, etc.

"Removed" is used when two persons share a set of ancestors but are not the same number of generations in descent from those ancestors. For example, the children of your first cousin would be your first cousins, once removed (the common ancestors are your grandparents, who are their great-grandparents). Your children and your first cousin's children would be second cousins.

Taken from:
http://www.ayrshireroots.com/Genealogy/Reference/What%20is%20a%20Second%20Cousin%20z.htm

^ It's got a nice chart that helps, too.

Anytime!

Also thanks a bunch for the cousin/removed thing. Wow that clears so much up!

As I am starting to go through OoP again, I got to the end of Chap 4 where they've woken Mrs Black for the first time and she screeches ".... How dare you befoul the house of my fathers ----". However if she married Mr Black, then its the house of his parents, right?

JKR was very reticent about talking about Sirius' parents- she skips right over them when Harry and Sirius look at the family tapestry. She talks about Mrs Black's cousins (first and last name) but when she mentions her sister (Elladora), she conveniently leaves off her last name. Could JKR be hiding a clue?

Also, when discribing Mrs Black's picture in Chap 4, she doesn't talk about her coloring- hair or eyes. Here's a wild thought, but could this be the missing "link" to Lily? If Lily is related (somehow) to Mrs Black, she wouldn't necessarily appear on the tapestry because Mrs Black married into the family. And all we really know about Lily is that she was raised by muggles, but that doesn't necessarily mean that her parents weren't both wizards.

And where is any mention of Sirius' father in all of this?!?!

Please let me know if you think I'm way off base here!!! :whistle:

that's crazy, maybe lily is related to them? hMm
-------------------
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proud daniel radcliffe and H/H shipper! =]

I have no idea, it is really strange how JKR never mentions the father. My first thought was inbreeding (as you have can't be too picky if you want to marry a pure-blood)- but of course I can't see JKR putting that in a kid's book.

There is definately something important going on with all the wizard families and everything though- not only does Harry see the Black family tree but he also picks up a book (I cant remember the name) that traced all the wizarding families back hundreds of years.

As to the importance of all this, I really don't have a clue.

You make some good points, I mean i have to assume that A Weasly mothers madien name was black. They seemd to only meniton Women who were born black(their children ie Draco), or the Black men

so its possible that lily was some how related to Mrs Black :frown:


as far as interbreeding i would have to assume that there was a time when purebloods werent a low in numbers

Ok,sorry to interrupt but i was just wondering why JKR used French (in "Toujours pur") but not Latin? She used Latin to name many members of the Blacks but on the Family Tree,she used French. Could it possibly mean something ?

Since Sirius' mother seems to have been a Black, with her husband as either a distant cousin (too distantly related for this to be gross but still having the same last name) or else he was told to change his last name to Black.

If he changed his last name, that may be what Rowling is hiding here. One of the other relatves may be expected to change their last name to continue the family.

Bellatrix - No children that we know of and doesn't seem likely to have any while running around doing Voldemort's dirty work.

Andromeda/Tonks - No one's asking them, and they'd say no.

Narcissa/Draco - With Lucius loss of public status, they may want to switch to Narcissa's maiden name. Draco also follows the Black tradition of having a star/constellation name.

Weasleys - Will only be asked when every other relative is dead and maybe not even then, although Percy might go for it if he hasn't grown a conscience and/or gotten some basic common sense.

This entire relationship fshocked me then confused me... does it meand that every REAL pireblood family is connected to the other one?

P.S. I am complteley aware of the risk that this question has been asked a hundred times before I did... :)

does it meand that every REAL pireblood family is connected to the other one?

DOesn't sirius say something like
"All purebloods are interrelated, if you're only going 2 let ur children marry purebloods, your choice is very limited" - or something to that effect?

Sirius's family totally shocked me. To tell the truth I had never really given his family too much thought, I was always too preoccupied with the Potters. The fact that he somehow emerged from this family as a decent person amazes me and adds greater feeling to his death.

Its quite strange but despite the fact that she has only appeared in the twice out of the 5 books so very briefly I have a deep burning hatred for Bellatrix Lestrange that I never thought I could feel for a fictional character. I hated her for what she did to Neville's parents, and this hatred grew when we saw them in St Mungo's but killing Sirius just topped it off. If she is not killed (brutally and painfully if at all possible) by the end of the series I will be extremely ****** off!

i aggree.

Also, might I add, that learning all this about his family and his coming out of it with the right ideas really made me more drawn to his character. APart from the letters of father-ly advice from him last year (in the hp series-GoF)and his concern for Harry, and of coarse how kind he was to Harry nearing the ending of PoA, I really grew to love Sirius as a character even more than I already did. ( But I mean, even when I thought he was evil and all in PoA I was convinced that there was something weird about the character and that not every year can be dedicated to killing harry and ending with him coming out alive.SO i figured Sirius was gonna be special...


..And I was right. I really did want to cry when I realized how lonely he'd be once they all went off to school, and again when I read the bit about Sirius being concerned for Mr. Weasley, but happy that Harry and the Weasley kids were there when they were. Poor chap. All by himself...then POOF a whole room of people...BREAK OUT THE BUTTERBEER!

*cries*

I'll miss him.His wreckless personality was one of the ones(along with Fred and George)that I really feel like I'd get along with well if I ever met people like them. I guess I like the danger or just the defiance of rules.

* shurgs*

As someone who's a bit into geneology, I guess I have a different perspective on the pureblood families. I mean, you go back far enough and everyone starts being related - and it often isn't as far back as you'd think. I remember the story of a white male from the midwest who suddenly realized the African American woman from the southeast sitting next to him was working on the same family line. They were cousins - distant cousins, but not that much more distant than some of the wizarding families seem to be. The truth is most people don't seem to know relatives more distant than first cousins, so it sounds wierd, but it's not that uncommon.

So, let's look at what we have. Arthur Weasley is Sirius' second cousin. We don't know which side this is on, so he may or may not be related to Narcissa and Draco.

Molly is Sirius' "cousin by marriage." I assume he didn't mean by her marriage to Arthur, so we don't know how she's connected to Sirius. We also don't know of any blood tie between her and Arthur other than the seven children.

There are two real differences. First, the pureblood families are aware of these connections, where most people wouldn't be. Second, they're determined to marry within this group even when it may not be such a good idea.

But let me put the eugenic issues in perspective. For every remove, you cut the genetic similarity in half.

Full siblings - 50% genetic similarity.

Aunts/Uncles and nieces/nephews - 25%.

First cousins - 12.5%.

First cousins once removed - 6.25%.

Second cousins - 3.125%.

We don't know what degree of cousins are considered acceptable for Purebloods to marry. They may, because of their limited numbers, consider first cousins OK (eww!) or, because they consider more distant relatives than we would as family, demand a more distant relationship than Muggle laws generally do.

Then again, maybe Sirius left home because his parents wanted him to marry Bellatrix.

Ellen that is interesting I did not know that

Then again, maybe Sirius left home because his parents wanted him to marry Bellatrix.
I doubt it... at 17? When he was still at school?

I think the reason that most ppl would form in their mind is more reasonable: he was sick of their "pure blood mania", and so on.

I doubt it... at 17? When he was still at school?

I think the reason that most ppl would form in their mind is more reasonable: he was sick of their "pure blood mania", and so on.

I really have to remember to add smiley faces when I’m being facetious. Ah, well.

I think something happened when James and Sirius were 16 that got Sirius to break with his family and that got James to turn his life around. I don’t think it was the Shrieking Shack. My guess would be it was something shocking and violent. Probably, it was done by Voldemort’s people. Whatever it was, I think it effected James more, that he saw this as being like his own bullying realized how close he already was to acting like this in spirit if not in degree. It sickened him and made do a 180 degree turnaround in his life.

Sirius wasn’t effected in the same way. Instead of equating it with his behavior, he equated it with how his family wanted him to be. He probably also went home and had a thundering row with his parents (to be fair to his parents, they don’t seem to have been great people, but I can also see Sirius just needing a parent shaped target to aim his anger at).

If I was forced to make a guess, I’d say Lily’s parents were murdered by Death Eaters and the Ministry refused to listen to the testimony of two 16 year old troublemakers when they tried to tell what had happened.

However, just to play devil’s advocate on the Bellatrix thing, there are a few things worth noting. First, the pure blood families have some attitudes that make the Dark Ages look downright Utopian (heads of old servants used as household decorations were not generally the fashion then). Arranged marriages hardly seem unimaginable. Cultures that do arranged marriages often arrange them years before the future couple could ever dream of tying the knot.

No, I don’t think that happened. Look, I’m adding a smiley face just so everyone can know I do not take the above idea too seriously. :)

I think we might see more of the black family, the ones who have been whiped out tho

I don't think that Lily's parents were murdered by Voldie. I'm sure that Petunia would have mentioned it at some point in her 'ramblings about wizardfolk'.

If I was forced to make a guess, I’d say Lily’s parents were murdered by Death Eaters and the Ministry refused to listen to the testimony of two 16 year old troublemakers when they tried to tell what had happened.

I had thought that Lily's had a fatal run in with some DE's, Voldie or dementors(that would explain Petunia's comments. I thought James would have been involved hmmm....but Sirius too? at such a young age? I like the way you think. that could be quite possible.

If Petunia is involved I do not think that she would not be in too much of a hurry to discuss it especially if Vernon doesn't know.

Too young. At 16, James could barely get "Evans" to give him the time of day. He was 17 before they started dating. On another subject, what happened to the Elder Potters? We know they were alive through the end of James' school years, but Harry doesn't sem to have pictures of them which tends to suggest that they weren't at Lily and James' wedding.

Too young. At 16, James could barely get "Evans" to give him the time of day. He was 17 before they started dating. On another subject, what happened to the Elder Potters? We know they were alive through the end of James' school years, but Harry doesn't sem to have pictures of them which tends to suggest that they weren't at Lily and James' wedding.
Good point. Mind you, it couldn't have been Voldie then, could it? I got the feeling that he hadn't been around reeking terror *that* long...

I think it was Voldemort. He was active and recruiting Death Eaters for several years before he was stopped by Harry. The Potters, born in 1959-1960, were only 21 or 22 when they were killed on Halloween 1981.

Really? That seems young, but I suppose it's possible. Where have you got those datyes, Whizbang?

I was actually shocked by Sirius background. I supposed that he came from this noble family because he himself is noble. I was shocked to know that he was related to Bellatrix. That Ron and Draco are related, as well as Arthur and Lucius, though I think that's through Molly. I can't remember.

Perhaps Slytherin's are the only ones who tried to keep things within the family? That's why we don't hear of the Potter, Longbottoms or even Snape. Snape probably came from a mixed family background as well. His parents were probably not very nice, though.

This whole 'inter-breeding' thing all seems very genetic. I know that it's a kids book and all, but it does sound a lot like genetic deformation, only more a case of 'nice-ness deformation' when wtiches and wizards inter-breed.

I understood it that the Potters were a pure-blood family until James married Lily. At least that's what I thought. Of course, they wouldn't be on the tapestry because of Lily. So it's still possible. I think that all the wizards and witches are related some way, which is what makes their trouble so much sadder - it's like a massive family fued! All so unnecerssary and horrid.

As for Snape, I agree with what someone else said (not sure if it was this thread or another) that Snape is actual foreign. Perhaps a couple of generations ago, but I think he is foreign. Perhaps German. From his definitions... born in England and raised as English, but with German or maybe Scandinavian ancestory. Maybe that explains his pale colouring?

Really? That seems young, but I suppose it's possible. Where have you got those datyes, Whizbang?

Harry Potter Lexicon. Really impressive site.

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html

The description of Snape as a teenager in the Penseive reminded me of Viktor Krum. He was Bulgarian, right?

Yes, Krum was. And the whole 'crooked nose' thing - you're right. Snape could certainly be Bulgarian.

And I'll check out the Lexicon, thanks! :)

Snape's parent's could've been forign and come over to England in like the 1950's....that does make sense. Though he seems more greek than anything.

Hmm, maybe James and Sirius were cousins, possibly distant cousins, but cousins, only the potters were a bit more like the Weasly's than the Malfoys, I highly think that Harry is related to Malfoy, I wonder if the Potters were DE's???

Why do you think that Harry is related to the Malfoys?

It may come up in the next book. If Sirius is the last known Black, who will inherit his family's fortune and 12 Grimmauld Place? I was really hoping for lots of information about Harry's family in book 5.

Why do you think that Harry is related to the Malfoys?

It may come up in the next book. If Sirius is the last known Black, who will inherit his family's fortune and 12 Grimmauld Place? I was really hoping for lots of information about Harry's family in book 5.
I think Harry would inherit, if Sirius really was the last black. After all, as his Godson he is the closest thing to a relative that Sirius has. Of course, I'd imagine that Sirius would have written a will given how dangerous he knew his work with the order would be, so maybe different things would go to different people, like Grimmauld Place to Dumbledore for use by the Order.

And I don't think the Potters were ever Death Eaters. I'm usre someone would have mentioned *that*.

I think there was a discussion around here somewhere about who would inherit the Black estate. If Sirius had a will would it be legal considering he was an outlaw when he died?
Would Narcissa Malfoy be Sirius' next of kin?
I'm not sure, but I got the impression that Narcissa might be the youngest sister. Bellatrix is a Voldemort groupie and an escaped Azkaban prisoner. But Andromeda, if she is the middle sister, might have been the next in line. Is she alive? If not, maybe the whole kit and kaboodle goes to her daughter, Nymphadora. But Kreacher wouldn't take orders from Tonks, and we are allowed to assume it's because her father is a muggleborn wizard. But ....... ????
Hmmmmm.....................


I'm feeling like Regulus, in too deep and trying to get out. Sure hope JKR throws us a bone in the way of some kind of information with the family trees - among other things.

I think that if Sirius has made a will (which I'm sure he has) then Dumbledore will make sure that it gets honoured. After all, Dumbledore is in favour of the ministry again now, so it shouldn't be a problem.

If he did write a will I reckon he'd have left a lot of his stuff to Harry, purely because he loves him so much - the son he never had, a living reminder of James and all that. It'd be like passing his stuff over to James.

well i have to doubt that Sirius even got aroudn to writing a will, but who knows. He proabably didnt have much to give, sure his moeny, but that be about it

Even if he did i have to doubt his estate would work like that, it proabably be more like roytal where it would just go to his next kin, which would most likely be his Cousins, if they didnt want it, It would go to Tonks

Just a question...If it was the house of Black, then why was his mother, who married into the House of Black, screaming about the blood traitors and mudbloods contaiminating the house of her fathers? Her fathers didn't live there.

Because she was probably closely related to her husband? Which explains her insanity - excessive inbreeding produces people with mental instability! (like King George the whichever who ran around the castle naked)

Was he killed by an Auror?" Harry asked tentatively.
"Oh no," said Sirius. "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death."

Ever since I've read this in the book I wonderd about it.....

Is it just me reading this a little bit in the line, that Sirius thinks Regulus cowardly because of this "panicked out"?

Severus Snape, at least judged by what we know till now, changed from Voldemorts side to "the good one". I've never read about that with an attitude of "he panicked out".

Or is me "translating" wrong, when I'm assuming "to panick out" is sort of sinonym for "cowardness"??

Sabine

edit:

besides: does anyone have a clue why we were made to know that Sirius' mother died 10 years ago??

Oh, geez. I just posted my thoughts about what money Sirius left and where he bestowed it in another thread very like this one... Grimmaud Place or something. Where are those Merge Mods when you need them, LOL!

Is it just me reading this a little bit in the line, that Sirius thinks Regulus cowardly because of this "panicked out"?

Severus Snape, at least judged by what we know till now, changed from Voldemorts side to "the good one". I've never read about that with an attitude of "he panicked out".

Or is me "translating" wrong, when I'm assuming "to panick out" is sort of sinonym for "cowardness"??

Sabine

No, Sabine, I think you have good instincts in reading it that way. I think Sirius is being condescending about what happened to his brother. It seems strange to me, as well. I think a brother would be glad to hear that his sibling wanted to turn from the dark side. Why would he put Regulus down for not wanting to carry out Voldemort's evil plans? Odd, indeed. Sort of the way he treats Snape as well.

Also, it's interesting to note that Sirius says his brother wasn't important enough to be killed by Voldemort - but Moody says, when they are looking at a picture of the Order, that Dorcas Meadowes was killed by Voldemort personally. Wonder what she did to get such treatment? I just want to know what all the Order members did in the last battle against Voldemort. Including Sirius Black! What did he do except get thrown into Azkaban? Did he help James and Lily carry out their defiance "3 times" of Voldemort? Why haven't we heard what Sirius atually did? Especially since he is so critical of his brother and Snape.

I don't think so much it was a case of Regulus 'turning from the bad side to the good side and fight on the side of good' as Severus did (at great personal risk), it was more of a "no, i don't want to slaughter ten people I have to escape and save my hide", and Sirius felt contempt because Regulus had chosen that path, the one of Dark Arts but was too foolish and weak to know the real consequences. I gather, from Sirius's eyes, Regulus was a coward who hid behind the Dark Arts and didn't have the strength of mind to question what his parents told him about being pure-blood.

I'm not necessarily saying Sirius is right in feeling this way toward his kin, but I think it likely that this is how he did feel,.... there was no love or remorse for the portrait of his mother, he was completely dispassionate towards Kreacher,... Regulus was no brother to him, really, just another idiot who died at the hands of Voldemort. And it was his own fault, too.

Despite the way Sirius talks, I think there's more to it. In Goblet, he spoke almost open mindedly about Snape - till he found out Snape had been a Death Eater (if Snape didn't want to reveal that in front of Harry, I bet he really didn't want to reveal it in front of Sirius [who he didn't know was there]).

Maybe part of the way he treated Snape after that was resentment that Snape had survived when his brother had been killed (and it would have helped feed his suspicion about Snape if he thought "If Regulus couldn't pull off leaving and live, how could someone like Snape?"). But he may have also wondered if Snape isn't the guy who killed his brother.

Snape kill Regulus? That's certianly possible.

As for Sirius' reaction to Regulus' death, I think it was a case of 'he was so pathetic he couldn't stick to anything, even taking the easy way out was too hard for him'. Which is what going to Voldemort is - taking the easy road, because fighting for what is right is much harder. And it was clear to Sirius that Regulus wasn't backing out to go to the good side, but just because he felt that it might be easier for him that way.

As has been said, the difference between Snape and Regulus is that one turned away out of cowardice and the other out of bravery. I guess that makes all the difference.

As for Sirius' mother, if she dies 10 years ago that would be... five, six years after Voldemort disappeared?

Despite the way Sirius talks, I think there's more to it. In Goblet, he spoke almost open mindedly about Snape - till he found out Snape had been a Death Eater (if Snape didn't want to reveal that in front of Harry, I bet he really didn't want to reveal it in front of Sirius [who he didn't know was there]).

Maybe part of the way he treated Snape after that was resentment that Snape had survived when his brother had been killed (and it would have helped feed his suspicion about Snape if he thought "If Regulus couldn't pull off leaving and live, how could someone like Snape?"). But he may have also wondered if Snape isn't the guy who killed his brother.


It would seem Sirius had good reason to resent Snape as an adult, years removed from the schoolboy rivalry. Consider their situations. Sirius was locked up in Azkaban for something he didn't do, without benefit of a trial and thus a chance to defend himself. Snape, on the other hand, was a known death eater and got off scot-free by copping a plea and switching sides. That had to bite!

I think 'bite' is an understatement there...

I doubt it... at 17? When he was still at school?

I think the reason that most ppl would form in their mind is more reasonable: he was sick of their "pure blood mania", and so on.


I have to agree, i have to assume there is only a few years b.t Siruis and his cousin, heck they could have been the same age

However at the time it seems she was already involved with Mr. Lestragne in GOF, Siruis said that Snape hung out Lestranges a married couple

i have to doubt however they were married at school, he at the time didnt want say yeah snape hung out with out with Roger Lestrange and Belltrix Black

Just a question...If it was the house of Black, then why was his mother, who married into the House of Black, screaming about the blood traitors and mudbloods contaiminating the house of her fathers? Her fathers didn't live there.

Because she was probably closely related to her husband? Which explains her insanity - excessive inbreeding produces people with mental instability! (like King George the whichever who ran around the castle naked)

I suppose Aunt Marge could lay one on us about overbreeding and inbreeding. Hahaha! Lord, I hope SHE never shows up again.

I really have to remember to add smiley faces when I’m being facetious. Ah, well.

I think something happened when James and Sirius were 16 that got Sirius to break with his family and that got James to turn his life around. I don’t think it was the Shrieking Shack. My guess would be it was something shocking and violent. Probably, it was done by Voldemort’s people. Whatever it was, I think it effected James more, that he saw this as being like his own bullying realized how close he already was to acting like this in spirit if not in degree. It sickened him and made do a 180 degree turnaround in his life.

Sirius wasn’t effected in the same way. Instead of equating it with his behavior, he equated it with how his family wanted him to be. He probably also went home and had a thundering row with his parents (to be fair to his parents, they don’t seem to have been great people, but I can also see Sirius just needing a parent shaped target to aim his anger at).

If I was forced to make a guess, I’d say Lily’s parents were murdered by Death Eaters and the Ministry refused to listen to the testimony of two 16 year old troublemakers when they tried to tell what had happened.

However, just to play devil’s advocate on the Bellatrix thing, there are a few things worth noting. First, the pure blood families have some attitudes that make the Dark Ages look downright Utopian (heads of old servants used as household decorations were not generally the fashion then). Arranged marriages hardly seem unimaginable. Cultures that do arranged marriages often arrange them years before the future couple could ever dream of tying the knot.

No, I don’t think that happened. Look, I’m adding a smiley face just so everyone can know I do not take the above idea too seriously. :)
Gotta run! But this is interesting and I'd like to come back to it. ;)

Hmm... lots of interesting thoughts.

Evil attracts evil, doesn't it? I think if you weren't evil and you weer married to someone who was you'd want out. Maybe even run away before the wedding... I'm sure wizards and witches could hide very effectively if they wanted too.

It's certainly rare for a genuinely good person to marry someone who is obviously evil, yeah.

I think there's something about the Black family that JKR's going to reveal in the next two books. That tapestry was too interesting to just have a passing mention.

It's one of those things that if it wasn't important wouldn't ahve got a passing mention...

It's certainly rare for a genuinely good person to marry someone who is obviously evil, yeah.

I think there's something about the Black family that JKR's going to reveal in the next two books. That tapestry was too interesting to just have a passing mention.

But it didn't have a passing mention! It had a whole chapter dedicated to it. ;)

I'm not sure whether we'll see the tapestry again; we've found out some of the most important information from it, so I doubt it will come in handy again.

Just a quick question, does the tapestry update births and deaths automatically? If so, I wonder if Sirius's name (or, more correctly, burn mark) has a death date recorded on there?

Originally Posted by Loz
It's certainly rare for a genuinely good person to marry someone who is obviously evil, yeah.

I think good people marry evil or less scrupulous people all the time. You can't always tell everything about a person. You can be with someone your entire life and not really know them.
People are fooled by charm.

But it didn't have a passing mention! It had a whole chapter dedicated to it. ;)

I'm not sure whether we'll see the tapestry again; we've found out some of the most important information from it, so I doubt it will come in handy again.

Just a quick question, does the tapestry update births and deaths automatically? If so, I wonder if Sirius's name (or, more correctly, burn mark) has a death date recorded on there?
Ah, you knew what I meant.

I think it would have to update automatically. I can't see anyone sitting there sewing it when magic could do it for them.

I said obviously evil. You know - Voldemort evil, people who don't bother to hide their evilocity.

Rotsie, it kind of has a chapter devoted to it, but we really only have one glance at it. Luna had a chapter devoted to her but we're still expecting a lot from her...

I agree with Rotsiepots about the tapestry. It was very important, and shocking to learn about Sirius's family, but I think it's purpose was served. It helped us to understand Sirius's past better. The part of who he's all related to might come into play again, but the tapestry itself probably won't.

The tapestry is not a living being. It's purpose was to illuminate as much as possible about Sirius before he died. I wonder if the tapestry could work like the portraits do and that's why Mummy dearest blasted her eldest's picture away.

JKR did a great job with the Black family. It explained a lot of quesitons and made us realizee how evil the Black family really was. I liked how Phineus was upset when Sirius was dead when before he was upset he had a son like Sirius. I think Phineus lost his belief in a Mudblood free wizarding world. The Black heritage explains a lot and makes you think how little pure bloods there are. It was a strong story from JKR and i think it was great that she included this.

_[Unicorn]']JKR did a great job with the Black family. It explained a lot of quesitons and made us realizee how evil the Black family really was. I liked how Phineus was upset when Sirius was dead when before he was upset he had a son like Sirius. I think Phineus lost his belief in a Mudblood free wizarding world. The Black heritage explains a lot and makes you think how little pure bloods there are. It was a strong story from JKR and i think it was great that she included this.
That's a good point. It also shows that people can change their mind about things, and that they can care for people.

And that Hogwarts could never have a completely narrow-minded Headmaster. :)

I didn't realize that Phineas wasn't saddened by the death of Sirius but rather mourned the end of the ancient House of Black, toujours pur.
Hmmmmmmmmmm...........

Ten galleons says that an heir of either Sirius or Regulus, shows up.

Maybe Regulus shows up.:eyebrows:

An heir would be nice. Regulus himself might be nice.

I don't think Phineas was mourning the end of his family line entirely... I think he rather liked Sirius beneath his chiding.

An heir would be nice. Regulus himself might be nice.

I don't think Phineas was mourning the end of his family line entirely... I think he rather liked Sirius beneath his chiding.
Perhaps, but I must agree that as a Black, he probably carried the family pride in being toujour pur. The end of his noble line must have upset him as much as the death of Sirius.
Here's a thought from the mark evans thread. We know that the Evanses are muggles and that Harry can't be related to Mark. But what if Mark's mother is a witch? Here's my pure fantasy. What if Mark's mother is a witch and a Black?

I'll be in the lead lined closet. :D Fire away.

We know that Harry can't be related to Mark? I don't think anything can be ruled out for sure, but that is a different thread.

Maybe Stubby Boardman will end up actually being a Black afterall.
And I do think that deep down Phineas really did like Sirius.

We know that Harry can't be related to Mark? I don't think anything can be ruled out for sure, but that is a different thread.

Maybe Stubby Boardman will end up actually being a Black afterall.
And I do think that deep down Phineas really did like Sirius.
Well, maybe. As much as he liked anyone, I suppose. And Stubby ... he's one of my favorite subjects! Catgirl suggested on I forgot which thread, that it was Regulus who was killed in the Dept of Mysteries and his identical twin Sirius, is safe somewhere. It's late and I'm rambling. Think I'll put on Led Zeppelin to keep me awake a little while.
See you in the Mark Evans thread? :eyebrows:

Led Zepplin is a good choice.

I don't think Sirius is alive. Either way it wouldn't be the same because if Sirius is alive then it was Regulas that we all loved anyway and Sirius is a stranger. But perhaps we will see Regulas...his death didn't seem as final as Sirius.

Perhaps I will meander on over to the Mark Evans thread. :)

Led Zepplin is a good choice.

I don't think Sirius is alive. Either way it wouldn't be the same because if Sirius is alive then it was Regulas that we all loved anyway and Sirius is a stranger. But perhaps we will see Regulas...his death didn't seem as final as Sirius.

Perhaps I will meander on over to the Mark Evans thread. :)

Beatles is an excellent choice, too. But I don't feel like getting up again. Sheesh!
It was Regulus that we all loved anyway and Sirius is a stranger to us. Remember Sirius was supposed to go into hiding? What if he did? What if he's been in hiding right along? But whoever came out of Azkaban did change into Padfoot. Hmmmmm.......
So may possibilities.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Woah, you totally lost me with that last thought there.

Woah, you totally lost me with that last thought there.
I'm guessing that it must have been Sirius after all, because he was also Padfoot. But what if it's been both of them playing us all off the way identical twins do sometimes?

Why doesn't Bellatrix name Sirius when she tells Voldemort about their battle? She only refers to him as he animagus Black. Is that kind of a half open door?

It is a half open door, but I have noticed that the evil people aren't really too big on calling people by their proper names. I think it is some sort of insult, especially belittling Sirius by just refering to him as an animal, rather than acknowledging that he is a person.

It is a half open door, but I have noticed that the evil people aren't really too big on calling people by their proper names. I think it is some sort of insult, especially belittling Sirius by just refering to him as an animal, rather than acknowledging that he is a person.

She never mentions what animal. What if Regulus was also an animagus? :eyebrows:
But I'm just confusing myself. I think it was Sirius and only JKR knows for sure who it was. Maybe it was Stubby Boardman. :elaugh:

It could be Stubby. But then what happened to Sirius is anyone's guess. Oh wait, that would make Sirius Stubby, right?

:lol: :elaugh: :lol:
Right! And Regulus is Snape.

Popcorn? I'll get the butterbeer out of the car. It's a bit cool out there so it will be nicely chilled.

Regulas is Snape?!?
The butterbeer is definately needed for this one, although I guess it is possible. A little sibiling rivalry going on.

I always thought Snape and Sirius interacted like brothers who hate each other. And in the pensieve, they only call him Snivellus. I thought Sirius might have helped to save his butt when he tried to leave Voldemort. Probably tried to hide him as his own alter ego, Stubby Boardman. Of course, then they wouldn't be identical.
School rivalries produce bitter hatreds, too, I guess.

Only a couple of Butterbeers left. Robert Plant is always in the butterbeer. That's why I hide it in the car.

I think the Snape/Sirius related theory is a lot more plausable than the it was Regulas who died, not Sirius.
Sirius was kind of alusive as to how exactly Regulas was killed. Sure it was a death eater, but that was about it. I guess Regulas could have left the DE's a gone in to hiding as Snape. It seems plausible and they definately do have the intense sibiling rivalry thing going on, which would even make more sense with the scene in the Pensieve.

I think the Snape/Sirius related theory is a lot more plausable than the it was Regulas who died, not Sirius.
Sirius was kind of alusive as to how exactly Regulas was killed. Sure it was a death eater, but that was about it. I guess Regulas could have left the DE's a gone in to hiding as Snape. It seems plausible and they definately do have the intense sibiling rivalry thing going on, which would even make more sense with the scene in the Pensieve.

Wow! I thought I was the only one who bought that idea. They do act like siblings. Sirius makes such a big deal about Grimmauld Place being His house. And Snape never eats there. In fact, Snape never seems to actually put a fork in his mouth. Does Kreacher obey Snape? I can't remember if it's ever come up.
I thought the arguement in the pensieve might have been about Sirius and Snape was listening. Snape refers to Lily as a mudblood, something a racist like the members of the Black family probably would do. I wonder if Snape's whole psychology had to do with trying to please his parents and not be a disappointment to them like Sirius, but deep down, knowing they were wrong, at least about Voldemort.
lots more, but off to bed, now. Very interesting. :agree:

Very interesting indeed...not that I necessarily think it is true.

But I would feel better about Sirius, James, and the penseive scene if Snape was indeed Sirius' brother. Then it wouldn't just seem like they were randomly picking on poor Sirius.

Just for the record, I think we should be careful when talking about people like the Blacks in general "knowing they're on the bad side", because everyone thinks they're on the good side, don't they? If a member of a family like that swallows the pureblood mania, it's probably not that they're evil as such, more that they don't have the guts to stand up to centuries' worth of arrogance and snobbery.

One thought I've had is that Mr and Mrs Black died at a rather "Muggle" age, unless they had children very late indeed. What might have happened to them?

That's a mystery. It does seem they were already older when Sirius and Regulus came along. Sirius was mid thirties when he was talking to a portrait of his mother who was a horrible old hag. Rolling eyes, drool, very pleasant picture for the poor man to remember his mother. And she had already been dead around ten years. More temporal displacement or just married late in life?
Or perhaps they had children who didn't survive. Or worse, girls. But their names would have showed up on the tapestry.
I'm still interested in why Mrs Black refers to Grimmauld Place as the house of her fathers. Why isn't the house of Mr Black's family? Are they really that intermarried to keep the lines pure? Scary.

This wizarding age thing is thoroughly confusing to me. I have assumed James, Sirius, Lupin, and the Worm to be forty-somethings. That would be about the right age for James to have had a son approaching his sixteenth birthday. Likewise, I see - or saw - Molly and Arthur to be ten to fifteen years older than the Marauders. But there's no good explanation for Sirius' mother to have been as old as that picture seems to indicate - unless, as you've said, she had her sons late in life. Makes no sense whatsoever!

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards_list.html

This site is amazing. Here you can find birthdates or years for most of the major characters. James and Lily were only 21 or 22 when Harry was born, so the marauders weren't yet 40 when Harry and Company were 16. Arthur and Molly, of course were older.

Whoa, mait a mimmit! (Courtesy of 20 month old Max, my grandson)...

What are all the references they're showing? Like this one in particular:

Born c. 1960 - died October 31, 1981 (CR and OP28, SS1)

I seriously don't have a clue what CR, OP28, and SS1 are! Well, maybe SS1 is Sorcerer's Stone, chapter 1, but James' age isn't mentioned there.

Whoa, mait a mimmit! (Courtesy of 20 month old Max, my grandson)...

What are all the references they're showing? Like this one in particular:



I seriously don't have a clue what CR, OP28, and SS1 are! Well, maybe SS1 is Sorcerer's Stone, chapter 1, but James' age isn't mentioned there.


http://www.hp-lexicon.org/abbreviations.html
This is the list of abbreviations. CR refers to the comic relief interview.

Thanks muchly! :p

*warning...fanciful ramlings ahead*

So, I was just in the thread about the blood in the bottle at Grimmauld place and someone there mentioned that Harry once thought Sirius looked as much like a vampire as anyone he had ever seen. Well we all know who everyone's favorite supposed vampire is. So the Blacks look like vampires and keep blood in their house, therefore Sirius and Snape must be brothers as they have both had the vampire references. It makes perfect sense. :lol:

Spooky! My dog chases bats. Sometimes. Though she's never hung one upside down ... yet.

hmmmmmmmm....
Blood in a bottle thread? I've got a few minutes. Be right over.;)

Mrs. Black's age is hard to figure. She may have been a middle aged hag. However, her death still seems young from what Rowling has said about wizard longevity. But, if you think about it, her oldest son had cut all ties with the family (specifics unknown). Her youngest son was murdered. Then, her oldest son was (they thought) revealed as the right hand man of the person who'd ordered his brother killed. He also seemed to have helped murder two of his closest friends.

On top of this, her sole, surviving child was thrown into a prison where all the prisoners are essentially tortured into insanity and he was given a life sentence without hope of parole. It's hard to imagine even the most callous mother not having problems about this.

I hate to sound melodramatic, but Kreacher's claim that she died of a broken heart doesn't seem so impossible. At the very least, the possiblity of mental instability caused by depression seems pretty likely.

As for the house of her fathers, I think it was a case of the direct heir being female and she either married a distant cousin who had the family name or her family insisted her husband become a Black.

The last is more disturbing. It means Tonks, Draco, and any child of Bellatrix could be put in line for a name change.

Personally, I hope Regulus shows up alive - after having hidden out with Muggles all these years and possibly marrying one.

Just because they're not on the tapestry doesn't mean that Sirius didn't have older brothers/sisters.

Let me elucidate.

If Mrs Black was old, let's assume she's had kids before. They are the light of her life, until it/they go and marry muggles. Oops, off the tapestry they go, and they've hurt poor Mrs Black's heart so badly that she refuses to speak of them ever again.

Later she has Regulus and Sirius - a perfect little Black child and a rebel. So, she blasts Sirius off the tapestry and refuses to speak of him.

The elder brothers/sisters might refuse to try and contact Sirius/Regulus, thinking that they are in on the whole 'toujour pur' thing. But now Sirius is dead, they might have to be found...

So, there's your heir. Maybe they emigrated to Austrailia or something and that's why no-one knows them.

I putted this question in some other thread because I couldn't find this one. I've skimmed through the last posts, but admitedly not the whole thread, so I don't know if this old news for you....

Anyway

Have you considered that there is a chance that Sirius wasn't a Black? Not entirely at least?

...what would she say if she saw the house now, scum living in it, her treasures thrown out, she swore he was no son of hers and he's back,...

OotP, Bloomsbury pg.102

So what is this supposed to be? Just "nutty" old Kreacher muttering around? Just "dear old" Mum being cruelly to Sirius? Or the truth and Sirius isn't a "real Black" or at least not "her son"?

Sabine

Oh he's her son, just a disappointing son who "broke his mother's heart" and all that horse manure. One thing to consider, if there were older siblings someplace, I think Sirius might have mentioned them, but even if he didn't, there'd at least be those burnmarks like there are for Andromeda and the kind uncle who bankrolled Sirius after he ran away from the old bat.

I putted this question in some other thread because I couldn't find this one. I've
Have you considered that there is a chance that Sirius wasn't a Black? Not entirely at least?


...what would she say if she saw the house now, scum living in it, her treasures thrown out, she swore he was no son of hers and he's back,...

So what is this supposed to be? Just "nutty" old Kreacher muttering around? Just "dear old" Mum being cruelly to Sirius? Or the truth and Sirius isn't a "real Black" or at least not "her son"?
Sabine
This fits with the question, why does Mrs Black call Grimmauld Place the house of her fathers. Isn't it her husband's house? Could Sirius have been from Mr. Black's earlier marriage and so the stepson of the woman in the portrait? Then perhaps Regulus is Mrs. Black's son?

It doesn't make sense.

Yet. :eyebrows:

This fits with the question, why does Mrs Black call Grimmauld Place the house of her fathers. Isn't it her husband's house? Could Sirius have been from Mr. Black's earlier marriage and so the stepson of the woman in the portrait? Then perhaps Regulus is Mrs. Black's son?

It doesn't make sense.

Yet. :eyebrows:
Well some have said that maybe Mr. Black took Mrs. Black names, that doesn’t seem likely since the English are very set in their old ways. Perhaps she was already a black I mean FDR(USA president) married his 4th cousin Eleanor so she was already a Roosevelt, maybe the situation is similar here

I think Sirius was her son not like a stepson, as she did call him shame of her flesh showing that she embarrassed that he was related to her

Dobby, I think you have the ticket. As everyone on the tapestry of "The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black" (I think that's the title) is related, it's quite likely both of Sirius' parents were cousins. Perhaps closer than the Roosevelts. And maybe even of the same surname. The close blood tie might explain some of the madness.

mmmmm.....
Possibly. But isn't also odd how old she was to have a son Sirius' age? She could have been his grandmother.
Of course, magical people age at a different rate so........
Verrrrrry interesting.

Is it ever explicitly stated that the house belonged to Mr Black? It's possible that it did belong to Mrs Black.

It's interesting that there's a portrait of Mrs Black and not one of Mr. Perhaps portraits were only made of those from Mrs Black's side of the family, which would explain her stance.

mmmmm.....
Possibly. But isn't also odd how old she was to have a son Sirius' age? She could have been his grandmother.
Of course, magical people age at a different rate so........
Verrrrrry interesting.


Or the portrait could have been painted just before she died? At which point Sirius would already have been grown....

Or the portrait may age :)