James and Sirius - NOT bad people

I have to say I'm a little confused that some people now dislike James and Sirius because of the Snape episode. How did the telling of that memory change poeple's opinion sooo much? We already knew that both were mischeivous and capable of playing mean and (sometimes) dangerous pranks.

The whole point (I beleive) was to show that Good People Sometimes Do Bad things... just like you and me. And that many people do things at 15 that they may never do as an adult (I will ask anyone 15 or under to refrain from comment until they are adults - trust me, you won't know until you are one). ;D

All the good things we know about both James and Sirius don't get wiped out because of that one episode. Obviously, Lily Evans changes her mind about tham as they appraoch adulthood, as she marries one and allows the other to be best man at the wedding. They are part of Dumbledore's team... I just don,t get how some people now 'hate' them. Plus, it's not like Snape is all that lovable....

I don't think they are bad people. But it is important for Harry to have seen this to know not idealise his father, that your actions (even when young) will have an impact far into the future. That one prank with Snape has had such an impact.

I don't think Lily thought James was bad. She knew he could change or she wouldn't have bothered. We only saw that one afternoon. Who is to say how James always behaved? It may be more frustrating to see goodness and then acts like that one. They weren't possibly the only gang who abused Snape or other students.

I wouldn't say I hate James now but this has changed my view on him. We didn't know too much about him until now and thought that Snape was exaggerating but now I really see where Snapes hatred comes from.
And I have to say, mischieveous is one thing, but this was just plain evil, even when you're fifteen.

Nor do I think they are bad. I think it went to show Harry something. Things you do at one point can affect the future. I sure think it did. It gave Harry an insight on how is father and what became of him. I think that it showed him that maybe he shouldn't be like that two, and it seems that he has started leaning that way. Perhaps though he is going the right way now, without the influence of Sirius anymore, who seemed to want him to be so much like James.

Do people really hate them? It seems to me that most people were just disappointed at James' behaviour (I think everyone expected it from Sirius). Obviously he was a good person; people like Hagrid and Dumbledore say it all the time! I think the point of the chapter was mainly to show were Snape was coming from. I have always really liked Snape, not because he is mean to Harry, but because I knew there was so much behind him. I knew he wouldn't hate Harry so much for no reason. I think it was also to keep Harry from running away with an idea of his father being perfect.

I for one do not hate them. I just think it was a shame that they did that to Snape.

I guess JK tried to protray James and Sirius as "humans". They have flaws and make mistakes. But I can't help but despise James, he’s just an arrogant rich pureblood wizard. Worse than Draco. At least Draco loathes Harry because he’s famous. James picked on Snape just because he’s an oddball? Give me a break here. He’s might as well be Dudley’s skinner evil twin. Why crushed James’ perfect father figure in Harry’s eyes. I ponder.

I don't understand the hate, either. Most of us have probably treated someone as badly (of course, without the good magic tricks). The people who think James and Sirius are such jerks probably haven't realized that they have done the exact same thing, one time or another. One incident does not make you a bad person. I'd hate to be judged by one horrendous incident from my past (and there are several to choose from).

I was kind of disappointed in James...but I guess he grows out of it. I know if I were judged by some of the things I did in 1st grade, I would be a horrible, horrible person now. Horrible! Oh, and by the way, I'm baaaaack!

We're all like Harry, I guess. We thought Snape was the bad guy and James was the talented and all-around perfect kind of guy. But seeing James and Sirius have a go at Snape shocked Harry, as well as us.
Basiclly,we're having the same reactions as Harry......we'll get it over.

Some people still don't realise that, in these books, you don't have to be squeaky-clean to be a 'good person'.

The whole pensieve chapter didn't make me hate James so much as understand Snape. I never understood where Snape was coming from, I always thought that the pair hated each other because of intuition; sometimes you just meet someone and you know they don't like you and you don't like them - it happens, it's happened to me.

Now I understand that James was a snot at 15, and that he and Sirius weren't the Gred and Forge of their day, as many of us had assumed. It's given me an insight into what happened way back when. But James grew out of it (from what we can see); Snape held a grudge, and for good reason.

At least we now know that James, Sirius and Snape aren't just 2 dimensional characters. We see James in a different light, and Snape, we've come to understand just a little bit more.

I agree with you that OotP does not undo any of the good James and Sirius have done, and that someone may change completely from 15 to say, 25 years old. And as someone who knows, teenagers can be jerks, it's just the way life is.

I don't 'hate' them, and I think it would be unreasonable to judge them on that memory alone. But looking at some of the other threads, it has caused people to question that Sirius and James were as lovable as they first seemed. I also think that it was a necessary part of Harry's growing up to question his father's character, as I think we all do at some stage with our heros.

I think that far from destablizing the book, it adds a new layer of depth to the series as a whole. The 'good' are not perfect, and the 'bad' may not be all they appear to be.

I also liked the way that Snape's anger, for so long thought by so many to be comletely pointless, now has a reason behind it.

As to why may people have changed thier opinions so radically, I think anyone who has been at the recieving end of bullying would find that chapter unpleasant reading. I found it very upsetting, and found myself very angry at the bullies. And I can understand why many would in turn, start to hate James the boy AND the man.

I don't think they're bad people. I was absolutely shocked at what they did, but they were being stupid. They were young and obviously didn't really care about how they made other people feel. But they grew out of it. I think it was good to see in a way. It helped Harry take James out of the idealisitc spot he'd put him in. But now, he won't want to be told he's just like his father. I think the scene helped us see that James and Sirius were human. We already knew that they were troublemakers. We just didn't know that they could be cruel. It explained why Snape hates James, and why he's so bitter.

Well, actually, there's evidence to suggest (from Rosemarta) that they were the Gred and Forge of their day. Look what our innocent pranksters did to Montague. That was the first time my sympathy shifted completely to Snape. Of course, he promptly ruined the effect by throwing Harry bodily from his office and discontinuing his lessons, thereby putting his own personal (and stupid) feud ahead of Harry's safety as well as his own and the safety of the rest of Wizard Britain (at the very least). I wonder how brave Snape would be without Dumbledore around. If Dumbledore died in a struggle with Voldemort, what would Snape do? However, at this point, I have to concede to Inkwolf that thanks to everything Snape did in this book, Harry owes him a lot and should, at the very least, recognize that.

Edit: This also lends some credence to the idea that Snape had some attachment to Lily but his "pureblood" pride was too wounded by the embarrassing situation he was in and from which he knew she had rescued him. Notice that that was probably the last time he ever called Lily a Mudblood, but the damage was done.

Furthermore, this particular incident demonstrates that in spite of Hermione's helping hand, Harry still cannot read women. By the end of the confrontation, Lily was fighting back a smile at James' antics. She didn't really hate him. She was just appalled at what he was doing. As we all are.

I'm also a bit confused about all the comments saying "everyone does these things when they're teenagers". Exactly how many people on this forum have ever humiliated and bullied some other kid in fron of a crowd and said to them out loud that the reason why they hated this person was "because of his mere existence"...
Still not saying I Hate James though...

I never once through the book thought either were "bad". I mean, we already knew they pulled pranks and stuff, we saw the danger Sirius put Snape in with there were thing. Its actually exactly how I pictured the gang to be. And I still love 'em all ^.^ Though, my view on /Snape/ changed. I have sympathy for him now, well, more than I did before at least(I never really considered him a "bad guy")

Originally posted by Leda (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=389148#post389148))
I'm also a bit confused about all the comments saying "everyone does these things when they're teenagers". Exactly how many people on this forum have ever humiliated and bullied some other kid in fron of a crowd and said to them out loud that the reason why they hated this person was "because of his mere existence"...
Still not saying I Hate James though...


Not me. But everybody acts like a prat in their youth, in some way or another. If your teenage years led to do things that hurt somebody badly, you can't be branded a bad person because of it. They were ruthless kids. But they grew out of it.

It happens. As a tennager, some may find it cool. Usually when me and my friends meet some kids, we'd tease them loudly and pretend to be talking to each other while insulting. They'd usually take a look at us but not say anything. But I must admit, it was a bit unfair the way they treated Snape. Maybe it was also because they had fought each other since the day they'd met. Snape always wanting to be as mighty as James, James knew so that's the reason why he hated him. With all the dark arts stuff and the purity of blood as you may remember Snape calling Lily a mudblood. But why was her name Evans though? Not Lily?

It deffinately changes the way you look at James.. but really he was just messing around... and Snape had hit him in the back with that curse after Lily turned around.. w/e dont go thinkin bad about James or Sirius.....i cannot believe he died....=(

When I was in primary school, this girl used to bully me a lot. Not quite as bad as that, but she'd always call me names and laugh at me and spit on my schoolwork. I saw her on the bus not long ago. I was ready to seethe. But she had a baby in a pram with her and I knew it was her own kid. I couldn't hate her. A young lady with a baby on the bus... she was not the girl who used to bully me. I couldn't possibly think that this girl was any the worse for it. It was just something she did while she was younger and reckless.

Originally posted by Sirius Black (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=389200#post389200))
But why was her name Evans though? Not Lily?


I don't understand what you mean. Why did they call her by her surname? People do that meaning to be friendly sometimes, as well as to be snide. I mean, they call hagrid by his surname.

I don't like the Marauders as much as before. Not just because of what they did to Snape (and I don't believe there's an excuse for what they did), their overall behaviour isn't that likeable. James is (well, in this scene) descibed as conceited and loving the attention he is getting. Sirius starts picking on Snape because he's bored, Remus does nothing to stop his friends and Peter adores their behaviour. I don't dislike them either, this scene shows that they were normal teenagers, not the saints Harry thought them to be.

Well, you've really got to EXPECT that in every persons childhood. We've all done it, just JKR didn't talk about it until now. I felt bad for Harry and Snape as I read this, but it didn't alter my opinion of them.

I felt shocked, yes. It brought back my own feeling when I was told the only reason I was bullied was because I existed. It will have done Harry good, this, because he can see that everyone makes mistakes yet comes out good in the end. Look at Snape.

You had to admit, it was kinda funny, not the actions, they were horrible, but just the name "snivilus." Don't yell at me, I nearly cried when they started on him because they were bored, and poor snape was only going through his exam paper, checking he'd done well, reminded me of Hermione a lot, especially in the exam when he'd written loads in tiny writing.

I think it was really mean that they picked on "Snivellus" just becuase he existed. BUT I do understand that he did grow out of it gradually. It was hinted by Sirius that he James and him were like that to other students as well, but stopped in the 7th year, apart from to Snape.

Snape has a good reason to hate James and Sirius, and it makes everything much more understandable why he did so. James was displayed as exceptionally arrogant, and I have a lot of sympathy towards Snape now.

Also, did you notice the "hungry" look in Wormtails eyes, as though he looked foward to James humiliating Snape? He could sense something was going to happen, and got up to watch...

I think Snape was totally justified by making Harry get out. It was his private memories, and Harry knew that Snape didnt want to see them. Snape doesnt want Harry to realise that he was humilated at school; and becuase he believes the apple never falls far from the tree, he believed that Harry enjoyed watching Snape being humiliated by James and his friends.

Maybe they weren't just picking on snape because he 'existed' but there was a better reason. I doubt it was jealousy, but maybe Snape had done stuff to them. I think it was sirius in book 3 or 4 said snape came to school knowing more jinxes than the seventh years. He was hardly some nice innocent character that he has suddenly appeared to some people. It also seems that what James did was worse than it might, as he has always been made out to be perfect and this is very surprising. but nobody who matters, like Dumbledore or Hagrid remember James for this. They remember the good person he becamse, and that is what matters.

Well, the scene in the Penseive didn't make me hate them, but it lowered my opinion of them considerably. It was hard to read. I know that not all people are saints, and that it meant to say something about how everyone makes mistakes, and that it is possible to change drastically, but that is hardly a sufficient excuse for what they did. Their actions towards Snape were unjustifiable and it was quite a letdown to see them in this new light. It was nice to think of the Marauder Trio as sort of role-models for Harry-- mischevious, perhaps, but still quite good-hearted and kind. Quite a blow to have this image shattered and discover that they were idiots.

Thenceforward, I have had greater empathy for Snape and a greater appreciation for Lily. But again, I don't hate them (James and Sirius were both allegedly good, brave members of the OotP later on, and I couldn't hate Lupin if I tried); indeed, it is a comfort to know that they grew out of it. Kudos to Ms. Rowling-- it was a surprising move.

I was just about to say the same thing: we don't know what caused the outburst--he seemed to be trying to impress Lily with the comment.

Sirius or Remus (can't remember which) said "James really hated the Dark Arts." Now why would he say that if Snape hadn't been dabbling with the Dark Arts beforehand? There might have been very good reason for them to go after Snape, in their minds.

I fail to see how the scene was shocking, surprising or an opinion-changing force. We KNEW they both were pranksters, popular at school, etc. AT THAT TIME, Snape was INTO DARK ARTS. The animosity between Snape and the other two is obvious. It's not like it's one-sided, and Snape was nasty enough to call Lily a Mudblood after she tried to help him. I don't really pity Snape all that much.

Also, this was Snape's memory of the event. Think about it : don't we all remember things the way we want to? Could the scene have been remembered differently by James, or Lily, or Sirius? Does the Penseive show reality, or the person's memory of reality?

As far as trying to get the attention of the girls and showing off with the snitch, I still say that was a teenager acting in a teenagerly way, with perhaps some insecurities coming out as arrogance.

In the end, I guess my opinion has never changed because I never placed James and Sirius on as high a pedastal as perhaps some other readers seemed to have done. Or maybe we're not remebering that Sirius lured Snape into a werewolf's den which might have gotten killed? To me, that was much worse than showing the school his undershorts.

A couple of points--

Firstly, this wasn't an isolated incident. When James shouted, "All right, Snivellus?" Snape jumped and grabbed for his wand AS IF HE WAS EXPECTING AN ATTACK. This was obviously by no means the first time they had attacked him.

Secondly, the big, brave Gryffindors teamed up on somebody four against one. Sure, James did the magic, but Sirius was all over it, Wormtail was thrilled, and Lupin the PREFECT pretended nothing was going on.

Thirdly, you've got the big-shot popular kids going after some geeky nobody who was doing them no harm.

You can't justify this by saying, "Ooh, Snape was into the Dark Arts!" Snape's personal interests don;t make him fair game.

Oh, and Sirus saying Snape deserved to die in PoA, and blowing off the whole thing as 'no big deal, we were kids'?? Well, Snape was a kid, too. He didn;t deserve what he got, and they were scumbags to gang up on him like they did.

I don't think anyone is defending James' and Sirus' actions here. Maybe we're all trying to justify them to ourselves because deep-down we all wanted Harry's father to be completely perfect and lovely, because that's what Harry deserves, but those people who have changed their opinions completely just because of this incident seem to be going a little too far.
James was 15. 15 year olds make mistakes...many mistakes. 15 year olds are often misguided and comfused, and do stupid things to show off to girls (what James was doing.) No, hurting or embarassing people isn't okay at ANY age, but 15 year olds grow up. And when people grow up they change, and James is not outside of this rule. Yes, he was arrogant and popular as a schoolboy. But he grew up to be a great man whom people respected. I don't think he should be judged based upon his actions as a child (because we all have our own faults and make our own mistakes), but rather as a grown man who did good things.

Now that argument was based upon the knowledge that James did do good things when he grows up...I hope JK doesn't throw another curve-ball were he turns out to be some crazy mean guy.

I don't hate James and Sirius, but found to be extremely dissapointed with their behaviour. But then again, what did I expect? It has been said in other books that James and Sirius where notrious pranksters. I guess I didn't think they'd never pick on someone even if it were Snape, unless that person made a move on them first.

James saying "Alright there, Snivellus?" Reminds me just of Draco. Snape wasn't even doing anything. Harry never says anything or does anything to Draco unless provoked by him, even though he hates his guts. This is not coming from a huge Snape fan, I used to despise the guy, and although I still dislike him, I don't despise him as much as I used too. I found myself for the first time, actually feeling sorry for Snape.

Now of course James wasn't a bad guy, I'm sure he shapened up to be a fine man.
And anyway, wasn't it he who saved Snapes life?

I could never hate James, Sirius or Lupin but yes this scene did change my opinion of them. I had always, like everyone else imagine James as being totally perfect, ya ok he got into harmless trouble but that was it. I am glad JK has shown us this side of him though, as it has added huge amounts of depth to James, Sirius and Snape.

For the first time ever I felt sorry for Snape and I can understand where he is coming from at last. Although I liked thinking that James was perfect, for Harry's sake I'm glad we've seen this. It adds further to the fact that in these books there is very rarely just plain good and bad people and Harry will learn not to dwell on his father.

I can't understand how people's opinions of James and Sirius can have changed so much though. Granted what they did was wrong but you must remember the high regard that James has always been held in up until now. Everyone, except Snape obviously, remembers him fondly, remembers all the good things that he has done. This one incident can't just change all that. Remember James saved Snape from Lupin despite his great hatred for him. I don't care if Snape said he was just saving his own skin, he still did it.

I still think there is more to the story between the marauders and Snape.
1- It is Snapes memory so it will be his point of view therefore possibly biased
2- Saying that they dislike him because he exists still means there is a possible reason for it. It isn't very often people will hate someone that much without a reason
3- James was showing off so chances were he wasn't always like this
4- did Lily stand up to James because she already liked him adn this was her "showing off"
5- Snapes horrible anyway
6- we kind of knew this is what Sirius was like anyway after the prank he played. We knew they were both always getting into trouble

I think the purpose of the story was just to show Harry that James and Sirius weren't perfect not that they were mean and evil.
It hasn't at all changed my opinions on them but it made me dislike Snape more for calling Lily a filthy little mudblood and the way he treated Harry after

The similarities between James' actions that day and (*shudder*) Draco make me wonder if this isn't some sort of sign that it is possible for Draco to grow up a different person than he is now? I mean, Harry is obviously not quite like his father was, so why should we assume Draco is the clone of Lucius?

Besides, Draco is related to Sirius, and if Sirius turned out all right coming from a family like that, there's still hope.

I'm starting to stray a little here, so I'll just say that yes, James' behaviour was a nasty shock for me (I kept wishing for Harry to just leave the memory and not see what was coming next), but I have faith in Sirius' explanation. Maybe it's a good thing for Harry to realize that people aren't perfect, not even the ones on the "good" side. That seems to be a theme in this book, and it makes sense, as part of growing up is realizing that the world has its flaws.

Actually my opinion of James and Sirius hasn't changed much because I never had a high opinion of them as kids to begin with.
Especially Sirius.
I never saw them as the same as Fred and George. I can't for the life of me see those guys hanging a third in the air because "he exists"
I never thought the insults on the Marauders Map were clever, just stupid.
From Lupin's and Black's comments to Harry Snape was not their only victim. Just likely the most frequent.
Obviously at some point (perhaps the sobering Whomping Willow escapade where somebody almost died) James smarted up. It is unclear to me that Sirius ever did. To this day he palms the incident off with a "he deserved it".
sorry Sirius, nobody deserves werewolf bites just because you don't like them.
If James were still alive, I'd like to think he'd be the first to kick harry's butt for invading somebody else privacy like that.

Well, it was an eye-opener for me. I expected James to be a more moral than what he was, as everyone always claimed he was such a "good" person. I could not believe that with such a reputation, he'd actually done such dispicable things. I mean, hanging someone upside down and humiliating them just because they exist is not just wrong, it's downright evil and shows a very, very deep character flaw in James. For a moment there, he reminded me of Tom Riddle. Snape actually didn't seem like such a bad guy when he was younger, and it could well be that James' actions caused him to lean towards becoming a DE; thank goodness he didn't go all the way. This may sound crazy, but I think that James and Snape were like Harry and Draco, except that James was Draco and Snape was Harry. Kinda sheds light on why Snape is like he is. I for one believe Harry owes Snape a hell of a lot and a huge apology. Snape has gone out of his way to help Harry and to protect him; perhaps to prevent him turning into another James (at 15)? Snape did mentioned something to that effect in PS.

(In retrospect, Sirius' death is probably a good thing. With the simmering hatred between him and Snape the Order would never have known peace, and as we all know, an army devided against itself cannot stand. So, it is probably for the best.)

I didn't speculate much on whether James was a good person or not - almost like with Dumbledore, because he was portrayed as a saintly character, he went in one eye and out the other. I never thought about what to expect from him, so the incident didn't suprirse me (but it didn't not surprise me, either, if that makes sense). My opinion didn't change on him because I didn't have an opinion of him.

I don't think James is much like Draco past the surface...sure, he was arrogant, but the fact that he bothered Snape "because he exists" defines it as what it was - the stupid arrogance of a teenager. Draco does what he does because of twisted morals and a twisted view of the world, a bit of lust for power already, the like. Somehow, I think that because James was doing something without a reason, it was a lot easier for him to be absolved of it. He just needed to grow up a little and discover the reason not to do it. Draco has complicated reasons that he'd have to deal with before being redeemed.

(Maybe Sirius' death was for the best, and maybe it wasn't. The house divided problem is gone, but I think that if it was possible, resolving the issues between them would have helped to make them work harder and be more at peace with themselves. Not exactly a realistic wish, but there was a lot they could have come to terms with, and I'm at a loss because they won't be able to. Especially for Snape. It's the war versus the individuals again, and that's a topic for another time...)

I am 15 years old...and I understand that kids are really immature at this age. Face it, Harry's gone through a lot more at age 15 then James and Sirius had gone through, and he's most likely had many more close experiences with adults at this age than his dad and godfather had had. He is more mature than them.

Even though I know kids my age are immature, his age doesn't justify treating Snape the way James treated him. But it also doesn't mean he's a naturally bad person like Malfoy, for example. He has goodness inside him under the surface, I think we know enough about him to draw this conclusion.

We can't forget the title of the chapter, Snape's Worst Memorty. At least we have the comfort of knowing this was the worst that ever happened.

Just a couple of points...

A lot of people are saying that because this was Snape's memory, it is slanted or biased in some way. But that is clearly not how a Pensieve memory works. In viewing this memory, Harry sees and hears a lot of things Snape himself could not possibly have done--for example, James doodling "LE" on his paper. Snape was taking his own O.W.L.; how could he have seen that? So the memory is what it is--an actual replaying of what actually happened. Snape's perception of the events does not come into play.

As for looking for reasons to blame Snape for what happened...well, isn't that what Harry was doing when he questioned Remus and Sirius about the incident? Desperately looking for mitigating circumstances? He, like the rest of us, didn't want to believe that his dad and his godfather publicly humiliated another kid because he "existed" and they had nothing better to do. And I, like Harry, was waiting eagerly for that explanation...and like Harry, was shocked and angered to get nothing better as an excuse than, "We were fifteen."

With regards to Snape's interest in the Dark Arts...um, sorry, but that's none of James Potter's business. Who the hell appointed HIM judge and jury on what other people should like or not like? Stay out of it, Jamie. Go play with your snitch.

I thought it was pretty ironic, too, that James felt it necessary to take Snape's wand away from him before attacking him. I wonder how the brave Gryffindor would have fared going to toe-to-toe with the scrawny little "oddball" in a fair fight?

It was cruel, and it was cowardly, and the whole scene upset me horribly. I felt terrible for Snape, terrible for Harry, and yes, I hated James and Sirius (though in truth, I about expected as much from Sirius.) And I hated Rowling for MAKING me feel that way.

I don't hate them... I still love them... In fact I was so sad when Sirius died... but I also felt sorry for Snape because of what they did to him... those kind of thing can leave a long life scar....

for gods sake they were 15!!!!

At 15 you-are-old-enough-to-know!

However I hasten to add that Snape used a hex that slashed a cut cause physical damage to James, James never did physical violence, just physical bullying, if you know what I mean. I'm not sticking up for them, as I've gone on in the Snivellus thread, it was plain wrong and there's no excuse, and I know Snape was only retalliating, but still.

And we can't judge people on one memory. If we did that we'd still think Sirius was evil murderer and Snape was evil!

I would never think of Sirius as bad or James. I thought that the stuff that they did to Snape was just because they were kids and liked picking on eachother. Their is no reson for them to be considered these really mean people all or a sudden just because of something like that. I didn't think of James to be quite the bullishy though but Sirius..yup and thats why is is cool.

I don't think that James hated Snape just because "he existed." I think that it was just a reason that he made up because he couldn't explain why he hated Snape. It was just one of those things were you don't like someone, but can't explain why. Someone asks you why you hate/dislike someone and you make up a reason because you don't really know. Bad vibes, you know?

Edit : Being a Gryffindor doesn't mean that you have to be brave all the time, Severely Snapped. Look at Neville!

I can now see why Snape has a grudge against Siruis, Lupin, and James but I think he carries it too far by taking it out on Harry. Who knows what else that clan did to Snape over the years... of course we don't know exactly what Snape might have done before that memory. I think that she put that in there so that there would be a connection between Harry and Snape. Snape didn't make fun of Harry when he saw into his memories.. he just asked "who was the dog" He probably saw that harry had a horrible childhood and related to him on a certain level.. although he would never admit to that (at least yet)

By the way, James' behavior wasn't TOTALLY unhinted at in past books...I remember suggesting the possibility myself once, though I didn't take it very seriously.

What set me off the first time was in Book 1, when Harry is at Hagrid's for tea, telling him that Snape seemed to hate him.

Harry said something about, But why should Snape hate me, or hate my dad, or something like that....and Hagrid suddenly went VERY evasive.

but I think he carries it too far by taking it out on Harry.

I couldn't agree with you more, yet I grudgingly understand why. (I think) When Snape puts himself "one up" on Harry, it's almost as if he is doing it to James. Considering Harry does strike a uncanny reseblance to James I don't think it would be hard for Snape to pretend. More than that though, since Harry does look "extroidanarily" like James, when Snape gets Harry for something, it is like he is doing something to James, and James can't get back at him since he is a professor. Almost as if he is living his schooldays once again in a modified form.

If you ask me, this is really really low considering the person whom he is "pretending" to be one up on is dead and you are now making his parentless son bear your grudge. Then again we don't know the extent of the pain that the maurader's caused to Snape, though nor do we know what Snape (and Lucius?) did to the mauraders so......

I think those incidents were only a small part of their lives. People change, and there must have been other things that shaped their character. They were obviously good people and respected by many people, so I think it's fair to say that we shouldn't judge them on how they treated one person when they were young. We also need to remember that this is all coming from Snape's memory, not a neutral party. It could be slightly biased, as most memories are.

I must admit I was a bit shocked at first, but then the reply that Lupin and Sirius gave Harry made it a bit better. After all they were 15 and Lupin (i think) even said that James calmed down after they matured more. For me, it almost makes me like them even more because now they seem more human and not god-like creatures that they were made out to be. I think that it's the way JK likes to do things, show and love people for what they are and dont judge on past mistakes.

Hmm, I can't say I approve of James and Sirius's behavior but I really owuldn't say I hate them. Again people change and most obviously James was likely to change. what was most influential about this scene though was the fact that while James and Sirius were going for humiliation Snape really sought to physically scar them. As is seen when Snapes spell causes a gash on James's face. It almost paints James and Siriius as typical bullies who believe if there are no physical scars their is no harm done. While it shows that Snape has a very dangerous side of his personality that takes some sort of pleasure in physical vengeance. Just a thought.

I'm actually not disappointed at all with this. When a character is described as too perfect and without character flaws, it really doesn't give them a lot of depth. That chapter just showed that even really good people acted dumb and arrogant at one point in their life. Teenage years are confusing times, you never really know how someone will turn out judging on their high school experiences. What I thought mattered the most was that James grew out of it and realized that bullying was immature, and turned out to be a nice adult. Snape on the other hand still needs to mature a little more. He treats Harry the way he does simply because he's James' son and bears a resemblence. He also somewhat bullies some of his students, mainly Neville and yet supports Draco who is also a bully. I mean, Snape should know what it's like to be bullied and yet he still does the things he does. I actually started to feel bad for him in that memory but then I changed my mind when he called Lily a mudblood. Come on, she was the only person who defended him and he gives her the meanest insult. That still doesn't justify what James and Sirius did to him but that was just one memory. Who knows what Snape did to James. Thats still out in the open. Plus that whole thing about "Its more than the fact that he exists..". To me, it sounded more like a joke, it didn't seem like he really meant it. Maybe the reason James bullied him was because Snape insults Lily for being muggle born and since James had a crush on her.

James was an insufferable :censored: and Lily eventually became a spineless trophy wife.

That’s my view of things.

Sirus clearly never ‘grew’ or learned from his childhood. He never expressed contrition for their actions to the person owed the apology, Snape.

:angry:

Like everyone said.

I was disappointed in James and Sirius. I love Sirius dearly. But their actions were really uncalled for. Its not to say they didn't change, but I think I was shocked. When Snape called James arrogant, he was kidding. The past books have always built it (my opinion of course my friends disagree) that Snape was wrong about james and Harry. I always thought the animosity between Snape and James was more justified.

And I don't think Snape hates Harry, merely hates what he reprensents of his past.

This hasn't changed my opinions of James and Sirius at all. Lupin did say that Snape never gave up an opportunity to hex James, and after James simply said "All right, Snivellus?" Snape started pulling out his wand. James and Sirius had to hex Snape, or else he woud hew them!

I never really thought of James and sirius being that mean.....i was quite surprised...but then again i always knew that Snape was just misunderstood rather than purely being evil to harry just cos he could (which is kidna why James and Black were horrible to snape...)

anyways....it must be awful for snape having to teach harry....i mean...every chapter someone tells harry how much he;'s like his father....its gotta be something like torture for Snape....

i completely agree with your last sentence KeLiSiTing..

JKR left the door open on this. Sirius and Lupin did not dispute the facts, but the memory appears to be biased. DD's memories in his pensieve are probably a lot more objective.
gg
(can't stop giggling about Lily's comments to Snape about his underwear).

We didn't really know much about James before, when you think about it. Harry just assumed he was a good noble person. We knew from POA that Sirius wasn't squeaky. But does what we saw in Snape's memory totally discredit the things we KNOW James did? He made Lily alight with happiness at their wedding, he sacrificed his life trying to protect his wife and child, and even before the pants incident, he and Sirius had worked for three years to be true friends to Remus. I think it's wrong to try to justify what James did to Snape, but just because someone's an arrogant bully doesn't mean they can't do anything good. I'm sure we'll find out how James redeemed himself.

I must say....
The first note in this Thread was truly intelligent...

I as everyone else was quite upset with what James and Sirius had been doing.. But ofcourse.. You are right.. Everyone has been doing something bad in there lives...

Just didn´t like the arrogancy

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=389907#post389907))
You can't justify this by saying, "Ooh, Snape was into the Dark Arts!" Snape's personal interests don;t make him fair game.


You make it sound like being into in the Dark Arts is like being into in Quidditch or stamp-collecting. It isn't - it's an interest in things that can be used to kill and maim people. As a Muggle analogy, say there was a greasy oddball at school who was interested in guns or bombs. If you were as immature as James and Sirius were at the time, you would make that person's life bad and think it was for the common good.

Another point - Harry thought Malfoy would have deserved having his pants shown off. Why does Harry think that? Is it just because Malfoy hates him or for his Dark Arts connections? How do we know the Marauders and Snape didn't have a similar history to Harry and Malfoy?

Hmm, having read most of those comments, i've got to say that i think a chunk of them are a great deal too harsh.

I'm not saying that what they did was nice - but despite what the arguments have been, i take the view that what they did was wrong - but understandable all the same. James came from a wizarding family, so his hate for Dark Arts is understandable. And, if you think about what Dark Arts is associated with, it's a hate that's understandable.

Also, i think it's a matter of, like what sirius said, them growing out of it.

Secondly, the big, brave Gryffindors teamed up on somebody four against one. Sure, James did the magic, but Sirius was all over it, Wormtail was thrilled, and Lupin the PREFECT pretended nothing was going on. What's with the emphasis on "prefect". I mean, ok, he had the *authority* to do something, but from book 5, we see that prefectship doesn't really change anything. Since the 3rd book came out, i've been contemplating Lupin's character - think of it this way, he's a werewolf, and things must have been tough because of that alone. And since Sirius and James were so popular, and had such influence, it would've been tough for him to do something, no? I'm not saying his decision was right - but at least he wasn't egging them on.

As for James' character, we know that he improves over time. Like harry finds out - Lily dates him, and, considering her attitude to his behaviour, he must have made a considerable improvement, no?

Also, James is merciful. When Harry stops Remus and Sirius from killing Wormtail, and wonders if he'd done the right thing, Dumbledore tells him that James would have done the same. And to spare the life of a person who's betrayed your parents, i think, is a great quality... that Dumbledore thinks James would have done the same, IMO, shows the goodness of his character. That overrides any childish cruelty/unkindness/whatever.

Now, Sirius is another matter. After all, he was prepared to kill Pettigrew. But that can be understood, surely, after losing his best friend, and being framed, and accused of betrayal? I doubt his character could ever be as good as James' (he's not spoken of as highly, in general), but i'm very much with dumbledore's take on a person being what others have made them. Sirius came from a wizarding family of dark wizards - and managed still to be on the good side of things. I think that shows greatness of character enough - imagine fighting against the will of your entire family... being outcast, and all... i think it may well turn out that Sirius followed James' lead a lot of the time - after all, James' parents basically adopted him, and gave him a home..

We'll have to see, but i think a single memory taken when they were just 15 tells us they weren't perfect (which we kinda already knew) - but it doesn't mean they were perpetually horrible, arrogant, and everything that snape claimed them to be.

Just thought of a couple more points to clear up:

1) James and Sirius didn't act like idiots solely because they were 15, but also because they were brilliant at everything and it went to their heads. This does NOT justify anything they did, but don't forget that factor.

2) Snape was not the only person James hexed for fun. There's no way around the fact that James at 15 was a right little git to people he didn't like. BUT...he was also a great friend. The MWPP saga remains the most wonderful friendship story I know, and then James gave Sirius a new home. Judging by Lily as we saw in the Pensieve, she wouldn't have touched James with a ten-foot broomstick if he hadn't really changed his spots (except re Snape of course). She believed in second chances, and so do I.

Yup, well said puffskein :clappy: :clappy: :clappy:

And just something that occurred - do you really think that james and sirius just cornered snape one day and decided that it'd be fun to hex him forever more? I'd guess it has something to do with him being into the dark arts, and perhaps also his insistence on using the word "mud-blood".

Of course, i'm not justifying, i still think what the did was wrong, but just another factor...

I still like James and Sirius... but I have little more sympathy towards Snape whenever he is being mean to Harry... He is doing exactly what Harry's dad did to Snape himself...

I've got to say, it gives me sympathy for snape, but honestly, taking out his revenge on james' son is rather... well, i mean, ok, he looks like him, but harry is not james, harry didn't do anything to snape, snape just started being mean outright.

Rowling also condemns his behaviour, btw, i read in an interview somewhere that she based snape's behaviour on one of her particularly nasty teachers at school, who was a "bully".

And also - snape's mean to neville, too... that's just not nice... i mean neville!!! :'(

Oh, as a sidenote -- if snape as a teenager was anything like snape now... can you really blame james and sirius for hating him?

I agree with lleugenll, but when it comes down to it, Harry is not James and therefore should have given Harry the benefit of the doubt, especially since he did grow up not knowing his father.

1.) Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore all compare Snape to Draco at that age. Let's look at this from that point of view: Draco is a right little snot who deserves to get hexed once in a while, no? I mean, look back on Book 3 -- didn't snape sneak around trying to get Lupin & Co. in trouble just b/c he wanted to and he hated them? Wouldn't you want to get back at a person like that?

And given the opportunity....do you really think Ron, Harry and Hermione wouldn't jump at the chance to hex Draco, Crabbe and Goyle "just b/c"? Look at all the other stuff Draco and gang do to them for the hell of it. And look what Harry and his gang did to them on the train in GoF....they weren't too nice with them, either, were they??

The memories Harry got from using the Shield Charm made me feel sorry for Snape more than this memory did. True, I ws disappointed in James, but Snape wasn't exactly snow-white here, either. And his behavior towards Harry -- and let's be honest -- SUCKS. Snape is far too motivated by personal prejudice formy liking. :angry:

But there's a key difference. Draco is a prince with the best of everything who believes he's entitled to have the world kiss his feet or his butt depending on his mood. He's always starting trouble, provoking the trio and openly trying to curse them out of existence.

Snape comes from a broken abusive home where he's got nothing. He learned the Dark Arts and the Defense to them the same way Harry learned to fly. When it came to those, he could just play. He was continually isolated and the object of ridicule. He didn't start fights, he fought back. He was continually overmatched, but hardly ever malicious. He only called Lily a Mudblood once that we know of out of rage and shame because she had saved him (again) from the attack of the other three. Plus, he'd been humiliated in front of the whole school over NOTHING. This has NEVER happened to Malfoy. Not even close. And he's rotten to the core. Snape has shown considerable good in his heart (Lily's influence?) and has remained loyal to Dumbledore throughout this second storm, helping Harry a LOT even though he hated him and despised him more for seeing his worst memory. The similarity between Snape and Malfoy is as superficial as the similarity between Pettigrew and Neville Longbottom which we all know by now is bunk. Neville really proved he had guts this year.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=407995#post407995))
But there's a key difference. Draco is a prince with the best of everything who believes he's entitled to have the world kiss his feet or his butt depending on his mood. He's always starting trouble, provoking the trio and openly trying to curse them out of existence.

Snape comes from a broken abusive home where he's got nothing. He learned the Dark Arts and the Defense to them the same way Harry learned to fly. When it came to those, he could just play. He was continually isolated and the object of ridicule. He didn't start fights, he fought back. He was continually overmatched, but hardly ever malicious. He only called Lily a Mudblood once that we know of out of rage and shame because she had saved him (again) from the attack of the other three. Plus, he'd been humiliated in front of the whole school over NOTHING. This has NEVER happened to Malfoy. Not even close. And he's rotten to the core. Snape has shown considerable good in his heart (Lily's influence?) and has remained loyal to Dumbledore throughout this second storm, helping Harry a LOT even though he hated him and despised him more for seeing his worst memory. The similarity between Snape and Malfoy is as superficial as the similarity between Pettigrew and Neville Longbottom which we all know by now is bunk. Neville really proved he had guts this year.



You're reasoning here is slightly twisted. I will say it again: in Book 3, they make it clear that Snape was always skulking around trying to get the trio into trouble just b/c he could . That's exactly like Draco. Now, I'm not saying that Snape hasn't been influenced by his broken home, but I am saying that Snape was also a nasty sneak and a tattletale and that didn't help his position any. Had I been James, I would've hexed his butt too....Snape was far too nosy into their business at times, regardless of what they were doing was breaking school rules. He should've just butted out and kept to himself.

How else do you think he became very unlikeable, hhmmm?? Do you really think it was only b./c of his greasy hair and long nose?? :stuckin:

jordmundt, i don't think all your points are supported...

Snape comes from a broken abusive home where he's got nothing.
Does rowling ever tell us this? ok, he doesn't seem to have any friends, but we don't know he's from a broken abusive home - i mean, given his character, he may well be, but you do'nt know that.

He learned the Dark Arts and the Defense to them the same way Harry learned to fly. When it came to those, he could just play.
You don't know that either.

He didn't start fights, he fought back.
You do'nt know that either... in this case, he certainly only fought back, but in the fireplace sirius tells us that snape "threw a hex at james whenever he got the chance... and you couldn't expect him to take that lying down, could you?"

He was continually overmatched, but hardly ever malicious.
Again, i disagree. His attitude to neville is unforgivable, i think, he's just bullying because he can. You don't know enough about his childhood to say that he was "hardly ever malicious"

He only called Lily a Mudblood once that we know of out of rage and shame because she had saved him (again) from the attack of the other three.
Yeah. She saved him. And he was humiliated. But Mudblooad? I mean, throwing one of the worst insults at someone who just helped you, is... well, i mean, i can understand how he felt, but if anything, saying something like that is malicious.

Snape has shown considerable good in his heart (Lily's influence?) and has remained loyal to Dumbledore throughout this second storm,
Yeah, he came over to the good side, so hie's redeemed in a way. But he's still horrible to neville and harry, though they never did anything to him at all. So he's not evil, he's just horrible.

....helping Harry a LOT even though he hated him and despised him more for seeing his worst memory.
Apart from informing the order about what harry said, how did he help harry after he saw his worst memory? I mean, he threw him out of his office!

The similarity between Snape and Malfoy is as superficial as the similarity between Pettigrew and Neville Longbottom which we all know by now is bunk. Neville really proved he had guts this year.
Ok, at least i agree with you there :lol:
I don't think Snape and Malfoy should be compared, since we don't know enough about snape. But snape's still a horrible person.

I am just thrilled old James has a bit of personality!

Yeah, he was a prat, but still, he was a 15 year old boy, they are mostly prats! And Snape may very well have had something coming...not necessarily THAT, but something.

I mean, James and Sirrus wer still friends with teenwolf! They still spent 3 years learnng to be a stag and a big black dog respective, so their tormented friend wouldn't be lonely on the full moon. They are still good people. They just aren't saints. And that is very fine with me.

Lupin is the only saint I need. Sirrus had that edgy bad boy quality. I mourn that man.

Let's not forget: the term "Mudblood" is the same thing as calling someone who's black that "N" word that I refuse to spell here. Calling someone that who's helping you is just downright mean and uncalled for. :angry:

And yes, his treatment of Neville is almost criminal, if you ask me....

Yeah, well said, ChaliceInnana!

Oh, and one more thing to add - k, fine, sirius played that prank on snape, involving moony... that wasn't nice... but then, you can understand that, can't you? I mean, he came from a really awful family -- and there's a good chance that snape did something to provoke him.

But then, James saved him "at great risk of his own life". Isn't that redeeming enougH?

Okay, seerius this was a lot of inference but let's start from the beginning.

1. Snape came from a broken home. His strongest memory, in fact his only memory of his homelife is of his father screaming at, threatening, and otherwise assaulting his mother while he (a small boy) cried in a corner, powerless to stop it.

2. Dark Arts--"He knew more curses coming into school than half the kids in seventh year" (Padfoot Returns GoF). Where did he learn these? At home, where there don't appear to have been a lot of money or a lot of books. So, either, he had a natural facility for them, or he watched them used on his mother and practiced alone. Either way, learning that many that fast shows a natural gift, like the one that Harry had for flying. (Which incidentally, we know Snape most definitely DID NOT have. One of his early school memories is of a girl laughing at him as he tried to clamber onto a bucking broomstick).

3. We have Sirius's word only that Snape tried to curse James. From Lupin we know that James gave this treatment to more than one kid, not just Snape and that he saw any time Lily was around as a reason to make a special exhibition of his skills. Lupin admitted that James was cursing Snape for the fun of it. And his confrontation with James played about the reverse of the way most of Malfoy's confrontations with Harry have gone. Draco always makes the first move, shouts the insult draws his wand, and jumped Harry from behind (twice now, once on the train and once in the school corridor). In the prior generation, James and Sirius shouted the insults (they have the ridiculous name for their opponent that indicates practice at insults--Snivellus that they use often). Then, when Snape rises, James is always too quick for him. If you want a true comparison between Draco and Severus compare the Pensieve scene to the scene in the hallway after Harry's returned from the first full-fledged battle of the new war. Draco shouts the insults and Harry answers him with nonchalant/lazily mocking truth. Draco goes for his wand without wtinesses and Harry beats him to the draw. In contrast, James and Sirius shout insults to goad Snape in front of the majority of the students at school. Snape tries to ignore them. They increase the severity and volume of their insults and he goes for his wand. But James, his wand already out is waiting for an excuse, suspends Severus in the air and lets him shout curses without his wand.

Now, Severus does call Lily the M-word ONCE and ONLY ONCE--Have you ever heard him disparage Lily in ANY of the other books or in ANY other place in this one? NO. Do you know why? He knew he hurt her and was ashamed. His quarrel was with her then-beau now husband not with her. In all his ranting against Harry and James he has never once mocked Lily, ranted about her or anything like it. In fact, there is strong evidence to suggest that he was the spy who tipped Dumbledore off (not that Dumbledore really needed the tip) that Voldemort was after the Potters.

4. Now, to helping Harry. In just book 5, Snape ends up helping Harry considerably though Harry won't admit it. And ALL the help comes after Harry had been thrown bodily from Snape's office.

A. He gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum for her interrogation of Harry (remember that nice cup of tea?)

B. He IMMEDIATELY contacted Sirius to verify his whereabouts and then reported Harry's vision and what it probably meant to all the other Order members at headquarters. That means, he SENT the rescue party that saved Harry.

C. He also SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED that Sirius remain behind to report to Dumbledore (advice that would have saved Sirius's life if he had listened).

D. He personally, at great risk to himself, went out to search the forest for Harry.

That's quite a lot. Please also bear in mind that I am not a Snape fan. I still hate him.

As to his unpardonable treatment of Neville, I have a feeling that he treats him abysmally not only because he can but because Neville reminds him forcefully of himself as a Hogwarts student. Isolated, gifted only in one area, continually the butt of jokes and he tries to demonstrate his own superiority to this image of himself. It's cruel yes, it's awful, yes, but that's the way it is. It's already been well-established exactly why Snape treats Harry the way he does. And in spite of it, he's personally interveend to save Harry's life AT LEAST TWICE now, it could be more.

I guess Snape doesn't care whether Harry is James himself or James's son when it comes to his hatred towards James and Sirius...

2. Dark Arts--"He knew more curses coming into school than half the kids in seventh year" (Padfoot Returns GoF). Where did he learn these? At home, where there don't appear to have been a lot of money or a lot of books. So, either, he had a natural facility for them, or he watched them used on his mother and practiced alone. Either way, learning that many that fast shows a natural gift, like the one that Harry had for flying. (Which incidentally, we know Snape most definitely DID NOT have. One of his early school memories is of a girl laughing at him as he tried to clamber onto a bucking broomstick).

There's no evidence that Snape learned these curses at home. He could've just as easily learned them after he became a Death Eater or even at Hogwarts.

Now, Severus does call Lily the M-word ONCE and ONLY ONCE--Have you ever heard him disparage Lily in ANY of the other books or in ANY other place in this one? NO. Do you know why? He knew he hurt her and was ashamed. His quarrel was with her then-beau now husband not with her.

A) Lily wasn't going out with James at the time Snape called her a Mudblood.

B) No other reference has been made to Harry' mother in any other books, true, BUT this isn't evidence that Snape likes her, or was sorry for calling her what he did. He can still hold a grudge against them and hate them for personal reasons without wanting to see them killed. Yes, even I have to admit that Snape has enough moral character to want to wish death on his enemies and whatnot....after all, he did attempt to save Harry's life in SS....

A. He gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum for her interrogation of Harry (remember that nice cup of tea?)

That is quite a leap in deductive reasoning. He gave Umbridge some Veritaserum, but told her only one or two drops would suffice. There's NO evidence that it was fake! There's only evidence that he gave her his last bottle to use on Potter, which STILL doesn't redeem him much in my eyes, sorry to say....

B. He IMMEDIATELY contacted Sirius to verify his whereabouts and then reported Harry's vision and what it probably meant to all the other Order members at headquarters. That means, he SENT the rescue party that saved Harry.

True.

C. He also SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED that Sirius remain behind to report to Dumbledore (advice that would have saved Sirius's life if he had listened).

How well would you listen to a person who spends most of his time taunting you about how little you're doing for a great cause -- b/c you have to hang back out of necessity, not b/c of lack of will or desire to help -- while flaunting how much YOU'RE doing to help?!? Snape weakened his warning to Sirius by all his taunting about how Sirius "wasn't doing anything" to help the Order. By doing that, he almost guaranteed that Black would jump on the rescue ship, thereby delivering him to his death. Personally, he should've been grateful for use of Sirius's house as headquarters and shut up about it!!

D. He personally, at great risk to himself, went out to search the forest for Harry.

Not as great a risk as Sirius took to leave the house and go with the Order to save his godson.

Celestine--Most of what I said requires a lot of deductive leaping, yes. BUT, Dumbledore IDENTIFIED the Veritaserum that Snape gave Umbridge as FAKE when he explained to Harry what actually happened. This isn't a leap, this is Dumbledore's testimony and I still trust it.

I agree with Sirius for not listening to Snape, the fact reamains, the request was made and the advice was given. As to the Forbidden Forest not being a risk, Do you think angry highly magical centaurs are easy guys to cross? Snape risked exactly the same treatment that Umbridge got, maybe worse when he strode into that forest.

Now for my admittedly gigantic deductive leaps. When most Death Eaters (Bella, Macnair, but particularly Lucius and Voldemort) talk about Harry's parents they talk about them both in the same way. They were both meddlesome fools who met a sticky end you little brat and if you don't watch your step you'll end up just like they did. In fact, Bella sees Harry as pathetic scum because he is a half-blood and is enraged that he deares speak Voldemort's name. Snape never does ANY of this. He rants and raves and rails about what a strutting peacock JAMES was, (and, unfortunately, with lots of good reason for five and a half out of seven years) but in all that rhetoric and screaming and cursing he has NEVER ONCE mentioned Lily in a derogatory fashion. NOT ONCE. Not even at his most insane (Book 3) when he was willing to see his old school enemies Kissed by dementors (no, I haven't forgotten that). The very fact that he never mentions Lily sets him apart from all other Death Eaters and former Death Eaters, including his supposed protoge Malfoy who gets the biggest rise out of Harry when he speaks epithets and insults about Lily. Snape never does this. This suggests that his outubrst against her at the end of his fifth year was a rarity and that, whatever his former conduct had been, this was the last time that he ever called her that. In fact, she looked hurt and not outraged. This suggests some sort of relationship, I don't know what yet, between them before this occurred. This is very different from Hermione's attitude toward Malfoy and his free use of the word Mudblood. She hates him and has physically attacked him when provoked (a shocking thing for everyone concerned) but on the whole she ignores the epithets he throws at her because she expects nothing less from the little slimeball. Lily defends Snape, with some spirit actually, which suggests that she either sees him as a victim, or has some connection with him.

Some of what I said is actually linked to Petunia's puzzling quote and the fact that she could not possibly have been referring to James since James was a man before she ever met him, if she ever met him at all.

Edit--As to Snape's learning curses, please look at the Padfoot Returns chapter of GoF. That's a direct quote from Sirius description of Snape.

The quote means that Snape knew more curses when he put the Sorting Hat on his head to be sorted than most of the kids in seventh year. This means he had to learn them before he came to school. So, he had to learn them at home. How he learned them at home is anyone's guess, but my previous post outlines two possibilities that I think are plausible.

Originally posted by Celestine_Adams (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=407967#post407967))
1.) Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore all compare Snape to Draco at that age. Let's look at this from that point of view: Draco is a right little snot who deserves to get hexed once in a while, no? I mean, look back on Book 3 -- didn't snape sneak around trying to get Lupin & Co. in trouble just b/c he wanted to and he hated them? Wouldn't you want to get back at a person like that?

And given the opportunity....do you really think Ron, Harry and Hermione wouldn't jump at the chance to hex Draco, Crabbe and Goyle "just b/c"? Look at all the other stuff Draco and gang do to them for the hell of it. And look what Harry and his gang did to them on the train in GoF....they weren't too nice with them, either, were they??

The memories Harry got from using the Shield Charm made me feel sorry for Snape more than this memory did. True, I ws disappointed in James, but Snape wasn't exactly snow-white here, either. And his behavior towards Harry -- and let's be honest -- SUCKS. Snape is far too motivated by personal prejudice formy liking. :angry:





I am not saying Snape has become my favourite character...

I am saying that even though I used to hate him and thought that he bullied Harry for no reason, I now see that he has SOME reason why he is such a bullying git.

You know, jordmundt6, i just think you're drawing too many conclusions from so little information given. A lot of your points are valid (i didn't pick up a whole lot about snape, he's not exactly my fav character), but i still think your concluding too much from the little that we know.


1. Snape came from a broken home. His strongest memory, in fact his only memory of his homelife is of his father screaming at, threatening, and otherwise assaulting his mother while he (a small boy) cried in a corner, powerless to stop it.
Could just be one isolated miserable memory, though i see your point. But remember that Sirius comes from a broken home too. ANd i don't exactly see the point of arguing this. Ok, he was miserable. But were James and Sirius to know the misery he had suffered at home? I think James and Sirius acted more out of pig-headedness than any real hate or ill-intent. They saw "fun" in it, which is, really, not nice, but at that age, i think their actions were more in the direction of being irressponsible, than really meaning to be unkind, or malicious. It's not only the action, think - but the intention behind it.

2. Dark Arts--"He knew more curses coming into school than half the kids in seventh year" (Padfoot Returns GoF). Where did he learn these? At home, where there don't appear to have been a lot of money or a lot of books. So, either, he had a natural facility for them, or he watched them used on his mother and practiced alone. Either way, learning that many that fast shows a natural gift, like the one that Harry had for flying. (Which incidentally, we know Snape most definitely DID NOT have. One of his early school memories is of a girl laughing at him as he tried to clamber onto a bucking broomstick).
I don't think that you can say "at home, there don't appear to have been a lot of money or a lot of books." All you see is him cowering in a corner, never does it say that there's a lack of book! That's really taking it too far, i think.

I think you're right in saying snape picked it up at home - he could have copied from his parents, or he could have studied them himself, for whatever reason. And i think the latter is more likely - you don't pick up dark arts just by watching - and are his parents likely to perform dark magic on each other at home?

But the nature of dark magic is such that a person like James, coming from a family intent on goodness, and with a hate of evil, would hate dark magic - and, from what we see, probably hate those who perform it. Thus, we can see why you dislikes snape so much. ANd again, you don't know the beginnings of their dislike of one another.

3. We have Sirius's word only that Snape tried to curse James.
Yeah, and given Sirius' character - he may be reckless, but he doesn't seem the type to lie. I think Sirius' word should be good enough for us all.

From Lupin we know that James gave this treatment to more than one kid, not just Snape and that he saw any time Lily was around as a reason to make a special exhibition of his skills. Lupin admitted that James was cursing Snape for the fun of it.
Yeah, but again, he grew out of it. I've already conceded that James and sirius were pig-headed, and they kept showing of, and no, it wasn't nice. But the point i'm making is that:

a) They grew out of it - they stopped hexing other students, and they only continued on with snape because he cursed them whenever he got a chance. ANd c'mon - you know the nature of school-boy quarrels - would you expect either one of them to go to the other and apologise? Because, it's likely that each did something to provoke the other, and such disputes are not easily settled, it takes a lot for one to try to make it up with the other. And if james had tried to make it up with snape - do you think he would've accepted? I think their dislike of one another was an irretrievable situation - they were never going to make it up as schoolboys.

b) I think we can deduce that the nature of their taunting "snivellus" went down. I can't see James dangling snape in the air while dating Lily. Maybe the odd hex of curse in the corridor - but i think it's likely that they grew out of the public humiliation side of it. Lily wouldn't have stood for that.

c) They were good people, when it came to that. James saved snape's life -- and we know he was the sort of person who would have saved pettigrew's, despite his betrayal. As i said earlier, i think that such greatness of heart overrides schoolboy unkindness, which he grew out of, in any case.

In the prior generation, James and Sirius shouted the insults... Then, when Snape rises, James is always too quick for him. That's just one example, remember. In later years, Sirius indicates to us that Snape cursed james "whenver he got the chance". That indicates that there were times when he made the first move.

In contrast, James and Sirius shout insults to goad Snape in front of the majority of the students at school. Snape tries to ignore them. They increase the severity and volume of their insults and he goes for his wand. But James, his wand already out is waiting for an excuse, suspends Severus in the air and lets him shout curses without his wand.
Yeah, i already said it wasn't nice. See the above... ;D

Now, Severus does call Lily the M-word ONCE and ONLY ONCE--Have you ever heard him disparage Lily in ANY of the other books or in ANY other place in this one? NO. Do you know why? He knew he hurt her and was ashamed. His quarrel was with her then-beau now husband not with her. In all his ranting against Harry and James he has never once mocked Lily, ranted about her or anything like it. In fact, there is strong evidence to suggest that he was the spy who tipped Dumbledore off (not that Dumbledore really needed the tip) that Voldemort was after the Potters.
Firstly, how do you know he only calls her that once? There's absolutely no evidence for that. you may well be right, but again, you're drawing conclusions from thin air. As for how he felt about saying that to her - you know nothing about that.

As for his ranting against Harry and James, and not mentioning her - well, i think it's pretty clear that she was a good person. Snape hated James, but what would he have to hold against Lily? I don't see the point you're making here. Not being unkind to lily says nothing about his character.

As for him turning spy - we know that, but all it does is tell us that he wasn't irredeemably bad. But he's still mean.

4. Now, to helping Harry. In just book 5, Snape ends up helping Harry considerably though Harry won't admit it. And ALL the help comes after Harry had been thrown bodily from Snape's office.

In brief what you said:
a) fake veritaserum
b) contacting sirius
c) He also SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED that Sirius remain behind to report to Dumbledore (advice that would have saved Sirius's life if he had listened).
d) He personally, at great risk to himself, went out to search the forest for Harry.

With the veritaserum - well, i don't think that shows any goodness of his character. Letting umbridge question harry is not only dangereous for harry, it's also dangerous for the order, and for snape.

Contacting sirius -- well, they're both part of the order, aren't they? It doesn't exactly cost him anything, for one, and he's kinda obliged.

Searching for harry in the forest - well, he was only risking attack by centaurs - if he was quiet, there was no "great risk". True, it was a good thing for him to do, but don't think he did it out of any love of harry...

Requesting sirius to remain behind -- he could have done that for any number of reasons. Could be to taunt sirius that he couldn't do anything helpful, for one. And while staying would have saved sirius' life, the situation was not one that required sirius to stay. And if sirius had stayed, someone else may have died.

As to his unpardonable treatment of Neville, I have a feeling that he treats him abysmally not only because he can but because Neville reminds him forcefully of himself as a Hogwarts student. Isolated, gifted only in one area, continually the butt of jokes and he tries to demonstrate his own superiority to this image of himself. It's cruel yes, it's awful, yes, but that's the way it is. It's already been well-established exactly why Snape treats Harry the way he does. And in spite of it, he's personally interveend to save Harry's life AT LEAST TWICE now, it could be more. Yeah, but that does not make the situation any better. Whatever neville reminds him of is no reason for him to treat him the way he does. It's just plain mean, malicious, and bullying. And having suffered so much as a child, snape should understand neville's position better, and leave him alone, rather than making his life hell.

As for saving harry's life - no doubt, there's goodness in that. Could be to do with James having saved his life before, no? Remember dumbledore's words? "When a wizard saves the life of another, it creates a certain bond between them", or something like that.

All in all, i can see your point about James and Sirius being not-nice to treat snape the way they did, but the grew out if it, and did a great deal to redeem themselves. I can see your point, but i think ppl tend to be too harsh on sirius and james, based on only *one* memory of snape's -- we don't know the whole story, but what we do know does point that they became better ppl as they grew older.

EDIT: Just to say, sorry, i know some of my points have already been said, but it took me an age to write all this up, and i guess a lot of posts have been happening while i was writing this.

I am not saying Snape has become my favourite character...

I am saying that even though I used to hate him and thought that he bullied Harry for no reason, I now see that he has SOME reason why he is such a bullying git.

Completely understandable. But still, he should lighten and put the grudge away, The object of it has long since died, and he hasn't really given Harry a chance to like him.

Okay, now that I've finally vented, maybe I'll calm down. He really should put his grudge away, but as Dumbledore said, some wounds run too deep for the healing.

Snape actually IS from a broken home.... it was mentioned somewhere in the book but my brain isn't smart enough to memorize the 766 pages...

I think this thread is turning into more of a Snape debate thread than Sirius/James - Not bad thread...

Originally posted by Celestine_Adams (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=407967#post407967))
1.) Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore all compare Snape to Draco at that age. Let's look at this from that point of view: Draco is a right little snot who deserves to get hexed once in a while, no? I mean, look back on Book 3 -- didn't snape sneak around trying to get Lupin & Co. in trouble just b/c he wanted to and he hated them? Wouldn't you want to get back at a person like that?

Sirius and Lupin have never even mentioned Draco Malfoy's name. As for Dumbledore, he never compared Snape to Draco. NEVER. He merely said Snape and James disliked each other, much as Draco and Harry do. (We just never realized James was Draco and Snape was Harry.) And the events in Book 3 that Lupin and Sirius--such unbiased sources!--were describing happened AFTER the memory in Snape's Pensieve. No wonder if he did want them expelled--maybe he was tired of being jumped just because he existed.

[i]Originally posted by Celestine_Adams
And given the opportunity....do you really think Ron, Harry and Hermione wouldn't jump at the chance to hex Draco, Crabbe and Goyle "just b/c"?

Good God. We KNOW they wouldn't, because Harry was horrified by that very fact--that the attack on Snape was totally unprovoked and unjustified! That's why he went to Lupin and Black for some kind of explanation--he was desperate for some mitigating circumstances, any at all.

[i]Originally posted by Celestine_Adams
The memories Harry got from using the Shield Charm made me feel sorry for Snape more than this memory did. True, I ws disappointed in James, but Snape wasn't exactly snow-white here, either. And his behavior towards Harry -- and let's be honest -- SUCKS. Snape is far too motivated by personal prejudice formy liking. :angry:


Let's see. James baits and insults a kid who isn't bothering him at all, takes his wand, knocks him down, fills his mouth with soap, humiliates him by hanging him upside down, drops him, then humiliates him again, and you're "disappointed" in him. Snape takes points from Gryffindor, gives unwarranted detentions, and glares a lot, and he's a 'horrible" person.

Okay. I got it now. :rolleyes:

Okay, now that I've finally vented, maybe I'll calm down. He really should put his grudge away, but as Dumbledore said, some wounds run too deep for the healing.
What??? You mean i just typed a 1,700 word thing (yup, i counted) so you can calm down???!!! :'(

I think this thread is turning into more of a Snape debate thread than Sirius/James - Not bad thread...
Just for interest, there's a new thread here

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=408394#post408394

About snape. :)

But jordmundt6, you can't go now!! i just spent a good 20mins at least, writing that up... at least read it... ^^"""

Celestine--Most of what I said requires a lot of deductive leaping, yes. BUT, Dumbledore IDENTIFIED the Veritaserum that Snape gave Umbridge as FAKE when he explained to Harry what actually happened. This isn't a leap, this is Dumbledore's testimony and I still trust it.

Fark it, I went back and re-read that chapter. I was so tired that I forgot that detail. :-D

I agree with Sirius for not listening to Snape, the fact reamains, the request was made and the advice was given. As to the Forbidden Forest not being a risk, Do you think angry highly magical centaurs are easy guys to cross? Snape risked exactly the same treatment that Umbridge got, maybe worse when he strode into that forest.

Snape's not stupid enough to go off insulting creatures in the Forbidden Forest liek Umbridge was, so no, he wasn't risking a lot. Furthermore, he could be quiet and search the forest in different ways rather than just go stomping thru it. He knew enough for that.

Now for my admittedly gigantic deductive leaps. When most Death Eaters (Bella, Macnair, but particularly Lucius and Voldemort) talk about Harry's parents they talk about them both in the same way. They were both meddlesome fools who met a sticky end you little brat and if you don't watch your step you'll end up just like they did. In fact, Bella sees Harry as pathetic scum because he is a half-blood and is enraged that he deares speak Voldemort's name. Snape never does ANY of this. He rants and raves and rails about what a strutting peacock JAMES was, (and, unfortunately, with lots of good reason for five and a half out of seven years) but in all that rhetoric and screaming and cursing he has NEVER ONCE mentioned Lily in a derogatory fashion. NOT ONCE. Not even at his most insane (Book 3) when he was willing to see his old school enemies Kissed by dementors (no, I haven't forgotten that). The very fact that he never mentions Lily sets him apart from all other Death Eaters and former Death Eaters, including his supposed protoge Malfoy who gets the biggest rise out of Harry when he speaks epithets and insults about Lily. Snape never does this. This suggests that his outubrst against her at the end of his fifth year was a rarity and that, whatever his former conduct had been, this was the last time that he ever called her that. In fact, she looked hurt and not outraged. This suggests some sort of relationship, I don't know what yet, between them before this occurred. This is very different from Hermione's attitude toward Malfoy and his free use of the word Mudblood. She hates him and has physically attacked him when provoked (a shocking thing for everyone concerned) but on the whole she ignores the epithets he throws at her because she expects nothing less from the little slimeball. Lily defends Snape, with some spirit actually, which suggests that she either sees him as a victim, or has some connection with him.

Not mentioning someone even once i no indication that they have some kind of connection. That's a big leap. It prolly means that Snape just didn't have as much ammo on Lily as he did on James. And let's face it: how much ammo would you have on someone who tried to help you, but whom you swatted away? You can't go around blaming them in the same fashion as someone who once put hexes on you every time he saw you. The fact that he doesn't mention her at all just means that he KNOWS it was wrong of him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't hate her just the same.

The quote means that Snape knew more curses when he put the Sorting Hat on his head to be sorted than most of the kids in seventh year. This means he had to learn them before he came to school. So, he had to learn them at home. How he learned them at home is anyone's guess, but my previous post outlines two possibilities that I think are plausible.

That doesn't mean he learned them at home. He knows how to read, he could've hung out with students who knew that stuff (being a pureblood wizard and all that) or could've snuck books out to read or something. All those are possibilites as well.

Sirius and Lupin have never even mentioned Draco Malfoy's name. As for Dumbledore, he never compared Snape to Draco. NEVER. He merely said Snape and James disliked each other, much as Draco and Harry do. (We just never realized James was Draco and Snape was Harry.)

"Just never realized"?? Oh PUHLEEZZEE -- WHO gives favors to Draco just b/c he's in his house? Who was once a Death Eater of his own free will? Who once studied the Dark Arts, so much so that he knew them all before his first year at Hogwarts. Yeah, perfect description of HARRY....NOT. :rolleyes:


And the events in Book 3 that Lupin and Sirius--such unbiased sources!--were describing happened AFTER the memory in Snape's Pensieve. No wonder if he did want them expelled--maybe he was tired of being jumped just because he existed.

I guess you're really just trying to forget the time he snuck around the Whomping Willow after he knew Lupin went down there once a month, skulking around to see what trouble he could get them into. Sounds more like what Draco tried to do to Harry, Ron, and Hermione when they were trying to get the dragon away from Hagrid so he wouldn't get fired from Hogwarts or put in jail.



Good God. We KNOW they wouldn't, because Harry was horrified by that very fact--that the attack on Snape was totally unprovoked and unjustified! That's why he went to Lupin and Black for some kind of explanation--he was desperate for some mitigating circumstances, any at all.

Unprovoked and unjustified at that time. We've only seen one memory, and we KNOW for a fact that Snape wasn't solely the victim, either. Sirius made it plain that Snape was doing as much dishing out as he was taking it.

Let's see. James baits and insults a kid who isn't bothering him at all, takes his wand, knocks him down, fills his mouth with soap, humiliates him by hanging him upside down, drops him, then humiliates him again, and you're "disappointed" in him.

Let's see.....he makes him eat soap for calling his g/f a Mudblood. Yeah, I'd do that too. Particularly when she was defending him. And look how Snape treats her. Yeah, sounds like someone who's *totally* a victim to me....NOT.

Snape takes points from Gryffindor, gives unwarranted detentions, and glares a lot, and he's a 'horrible" person. Okay. I got it now. :rolleyes:


*laughs* This is too funny...let's see....he takes points from Gryffindor whenever he can and for the stupidest reasons possible....makes Harry and enemy the minute he sets eyes on him b/c he "assumes" he's just like his father (before he gets to know him, mind you) and bullies Neville until he can't stand up straight when he knows he's already scared to death of him.

Yeah, I guess I "got it" now too. :rolleyes:

All right, all right. My problem with your explanation on how he learned is as follows--He learned the spells before he ever set foot in Hogwarts and the repository of really dangeorus spells seems to be in Hogwarts and/or in the Ministry of Magic someplace. Now, even if one of Snape's parents worked at the Ministry which, for no particular reason I somewhat doubt, I do not think that his father or his mother would have been allowed to bring the kid to work and turn him loose in a highly restricted library. Yes, he knew how to read, but where are the books at home that he could read? Does he have an older sibiling at Hogwarts (this is fairly possible, although we haven't heard of one yet)? If so, did he nick old spellbooks to read? Also we know he had to do more than just read, even Hermione has to practice the spells she reads to make sure they work and fine tune them. Hanging out with older students once he got to Hogwarts would not account for his vast knowledge entering it. He had to learn or practice them at home, either through access to his parents' old spellbooks (possible) through practical observation, or through access to a more extensive library (again, the only ones in existence in Britain are at Hogwarts and at the Ministry, both of which, as a child under 10 he would not have been permitted access to, particularly the restricted section--we saw what happened when Harry tried to steal books from it).

So, as I said, he did have to learn and/oir practice these spells at home and he was obviously not discouraged from doing so given the amount he knew when he crossed the lake.

"Snape just didn't have as much ammo on Lily" but his DE friends seemed to think the mere fact of her parentage was plenty and they've said so, often. Snape never has, not even at his most furious. At his most furious he did not blame Lily for trusting Black, he blamed only James. One would think, at his most maniacal if he considered them the same or had any hatred toward Lily that he was repressing for whatever reasons of his own that it would have come pouring out. But it didn't. Because it didn't exist. This makes him very different from the gang that he hung around with at Hogwarts and even his "pal" Lucius. Very very odd. It may noit prove anything outright, but it's very very odd, coming from a proud pureblood. And it's conspicuous. Snape has been volcanically angry three times now and has never dragged Lily into it. He rants and raves and stomps and threatens and shouts about James, but never, ever, about Lily. He's never talked about her parentage. And her reaction to his use of the epithet is not the reaction of someone scandalized or pretending to be (like James) or the reaction of someone who expects no less of the speaker (like Hermione) there's genuine hurt here and she quits defending Snape, but not so much that she doesn't shoot a last barb at James and fight her impulse to laugh (which surfaces only after the epithet is uttered--you'll have to check me on that).

Edit: Wow Snapped--You and I are on the same side. What a surprise! And you're right. Although Ron might stoop to this level if left ot his own devices, Harry and Hermione never would and Harry is HORRIFIED that his father would do this for idle amusement, EVER!

James and Sirius were not bad people. Yes, they bullied Snape, but like Lupin said it was mere adolescent squabbling. It doesn't make their actions right, nor was Snape a totally innocent victim. All three of them have shown some redeeming qualities at least. Sirius, for obvious reasons. James for eventually winning the heart of a girl that apparently loathed him. And Snape, though he took a darker path, also has some inherent goodness. He's still a spiteful, vengeful, bitter person, but at least he knows what is right.

All right, all right. My problem with your explanation oh how he learned is as follows--He learned the spells before he ever set foot in Hogwarts and the repository of really dangeorus spells seems to be in Hogwarts and/or in the Ministry of Magic someplace. Now, even if one of Snape's parents worked at the Ministry which, for no particular reason I somewhat doubt, I do not think that his father or his mother would have been allowed to bring the kid to work and turn him loose in a highly restricted library. Yes, he knoew how to read, but where are the books at home taht he could read. Does he have an older sibiling at Hogwarts (this is fairly possible, although we haven't heard of one yet). If so, did he nick old spellbooks to read? Also we know he had to do more than just read, even Hermione has to practice the spells she reads to make sure they work and fine tune them. Hanging out with older students once he got to Hogwarts would not account for his vast knowledge entering it. He had to learn or practice them at home, either through access to his parents old spellbooks (possible) through practical observation, or through access to a more extensive library (again, the only ones in existence in Britain are at Hogwarts and at the Ministry, both of which, as a child under 10 he would not have been permitted access to, particularly the restricted section--we saw what happened when Harry tried to steal books from it).

OK, I understand where you're getting this now.....Snape's family being "proud purebloods" would probably know Dark Arts and more than likely have taught their son. I can totally see that. I can't see him learning them on his own, tho, to defend his mom from his dad, though, if what you say is correct, that he could nothave gotten them any other way than at home. I don't think an abusive dad would give his son anythign to use against him later, would you?

"Snape just didn't have as much ammo on Lily" but his DE friends seemed to think the mere fact of her parentage was plenty and they've said so, often. Snape never has, not even at his most furious. At his most furious he did not blame Lily for trusting Black, he blamed only James.

Just a thought here....maybe it was just James's idea that Sirius become Harry godfather and Lily went along with it, knowing how close they were.


One would think, at his most maniacal if he considered them the same or had any hatred toward Lily that he was repressing for whatever reasons of his own that it would have come pouring out. But it didn't. Because it didn't exist. This makes him very different from the gang that he hung around with at Hogwarts and even his "pal" Lucius. Very very odd. It may not prove anything outright, but it's very very odd, coming from a proud pureblood. And it's conspicuous. Snape has been volcanically angry three times now and has never dragged Lily into it. He rants and raves and stomps and threatens and shouts about James, but never, ever, about Lily. He's never talked about her parentage. And her reaction to his use of the epithet is not the reaction of someone scandalized or pretending to be (like James) or the reaction of someone who expects no less of the speaker (like Hermione) there's genuine hurt here and she quits defending Snape, but not so much that she doesn't shoot a last barb at James and fight her impulse to laugh (which surfaces only after the epithet is uttered--you'll have to check me on that).

She stops defending him after he's proven he doesn't want or need her help in a very ungrateful manner. I think her last barb at James was more b/c she thought he was conceited and disliked him as well. Yes, it was after the epithet was uttered, I checked. But I think her feelings are rather separate, and I didn't think she was hurt so much as she kind of expected it from Snape.

Furthermore, I think her attack had more to do about James than it ever had to do with Snape. That would indicated she thought more of JAMES and how HE acts, rather than of Snape and his behavior.

I think he never once mentioned Lily b/c James simply arouses more hate and anger in him than Lily does. He could still despise her for being a "mudblood"; he just doesn't mention it as much.

But the context of his uttering the epithet makes me question whether he despises her at all. He was trying ta salvage what was left of his dignity and refused to be helped by her because it only increased his shame. You'll also notice that we don't hear anything from Sirius or Remus about how Snape ever bullied Lily and that James was actually extra careful to avoid confrontations with Snape when he dated Lily. In fact, it sounded like he took steps to make certain she never found out that he was still occassionally attacking/sparring with Severus. Now, this could just be because Lily's such a nice person that she'd stop seeing him if she ever found out about it but nobody, not even Molly Weasley is that selfless in these books.

I don't think Snape despises lily - i'm right with you on the take that he was trying to salvage his dignity -- but also, coming from a pureblood family, ithink we can guess that their disdain for muggle borns would have rubbed off on snape -- perhaps he saw it as an insult to him to be helped by someone who he saw as inferior.

As for not hearing anything about snape bullying Lily -- why on earth would Snape bully lily? I mean,
a) She hasn't done anything to him and
b) James liked her, so if he bullied lily, you can bet james would've given him a harder time.

Also, we don't know that "James was actually extra careful to avoid confrontations with snape when he dated lily". All sirius and remus say is that james didn't drag snape along on their dates, and torment snape in front of lily. There's a big difference...

Of course they are not. I dont want to think about it. Not even now that Sirius and James are already dead. I now believe that good people die young.

Of course they are not. I dont want to think about it. Not even now that Sirius and James are already dead. I now believe that good people die young.
Nyooo, don't say such things.... i mean, lupin's still alive... and dumbledore.. and mcgonagall... :'( :'( :'(

I think it's inconsistent to show the generation of James as chlidren, and Harry's peers as adults. The maturity gaps are phenomenal. Why aren't the current kids having any identity crises?

The people around them are the ones in crisis about their identities. That's plenty.

No, i do'nt agree, NotAboutDebra --

After all, just bcos harry isn't dangling upside down doesn't mean he doesn't have an identity crisis. Ginny changes a lot; neville certainly struggles; not to mention harry.

I have not been able to read all of the posts here, so if this has been mentioned before I apologize.
First of all, my opinion of James and Sirius has not changed, they were 15.
Okay, on to my points:
If your opinion of James and Sirius DID change, your opinion of Lupin had to change too because he was just as guilty of the other two. Prefect or not, he knew it wasn't right and should have said something. He was young and didn't have the strength or the will to do it. So we know none of them were perfect, who is at fifteen, or now for that matter.
As for what James did, I think part of the reason for this scene was to show that the things we do and say have a reason in the past. Snape bullies Harry because of Harry's father, I'm not completely clear on why he bullies everyone else except the Slytherins, though not as relentlessly as Harry, but that's another thing all together.
back to my point...
Other characters bully him for different reasons:

Petunia and Vernon-they hate Harry's parents and the world they represent, therefore, everything Harry represents
Lucius-because of the defeat of Voldemort
Dudley-following the lead of his parents
Draco-also following the lead of his parents, but also because Harry disrespects him and is better at some things than him

Therefore, where did James' bullying come from? Who bullied him? Who's lead was he following? Was Snape bullying him? Did Snape show him up somehow?

just a thought

thank you and good day

Harry does not change. He becomes angry, but it's an emotion, not a personality change. Ginny and Neville are the only ones who change. Not a soul on this earth is at 15 what they were at 11. I understand that they have matured slightly, but basic instincts change in this crucial period. Some of you might not realize it, but trust me, JK is way behind on the growing up of these characters.

PS (sorry to double post)
new thought, maybe JK is afraid to change the big 3 too much because the readers will turn on her, whereas Ginny and Neville, background dressing, are free to progress in a more realistic pattern.

Originally posted by PadfootGrrlll (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=410312#post410312))
If your opinion of James and Sirius DID change, your opinion of Lupin had to change too because he was just as guilty of the other two.

On the contrary, if you go and look at my old posts on Lupin, I always said he was a great guy, but a bit spineless, and too willing to follow his friends' lead....he backed up Sirius in the plan to kill Pettigrew without a word of dissent, for instance.


Therefore, where did James' bullying come from? Who bullied him? Who's lead was he following? Was Snape bullying him? Did Snape show him up somehow?


I thought it was made quite clear that James bullied people (not just Snape) for the sake of showing off, because he can, and because he was an 'arrogant little berk,' in the words of his best friend. Fortunately he got over it. Unfortunately, at least one of his victims did not.

I do not think of James as lesser now than I did before I read the scene. It is quite obvious that James and Sirius had a mutual hatred with Severus Snape. It is just like Harry and Malfoy. Malfoy was among the first of the wizards he met and he began to hate him there. James and Severus probably had a similar encounter. Severus did seem to see others as inferior as Malfoy does.
Do you think that James would feel bad for punishing Snape?
Do you think Harry should feel bad if given the chance to punish Malfoy?

Oddball

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=410716#post410716))
On the contrary, if you go and look at my old posts on Lupin, I always said he was a great guy, but a bit spineless, and too willing to follow his friends' lead....he backed up Sirius in the plan to kill Pettigrew without a word of dissent, for instance.

I think it is true that Lupin, if not spineless, is a bit afraid to stand up for what's right even if it's not popular (i.e., rescuing Snape). With Pettigrew, though, I think it was more that he completely agreed with Sirius' plan, than that he was merely following Sirius' lead. At other times, he reins Sirius in, who usually lets him.

I thought it was made quite clear that James bullied people (not just Snape) for the sake of showing off, because he can, and because he was an 'arrogant little berk,' in the words of his best friend. Fortunately he got over it. Unfortunately, at least one of his victims did not.


Agreed. Lupin or Sirius said that James had a bad habit of hexing anyone he saw in the hallway. Bullies don't have to have been bullied themselves: sometimes they're just so much better than everyone else that the bullying is just kind of a side effect of their arrogance.

Oddfellow, James wasn't punishing Snape, he was humiliating him. There's a world of difference. Harry has defended himself on several occassions against Malfoy, and counter-attacked him, but he has never gone out of his way to make Malfoy look silly and ridiculous.

In the book, it said that Lily almost smiled when James was cursing Snape. Lupin said that she never hated him. She might have liked him, but didn't want to show it. (Girls do that ALOT) James just wanted to impress Lily, and Sirius wanted to impress GIRLS period. It's human nature. (Boys will be boys) Lupin just lets his friends have their fun, and I bet he stopped them eventually in that memory. They are kids and kids do stupid things.

I never really thought that James and Sirius and friends were perfect, so I was not shocked at the scene. However, I did feel bad on Snape's behalf. I always knew that there had to be reasons for his intense bitterness (although this is only part of the story, we'll have to find out more). I thought this was an extremely important scene, not only because Harry finds out that his father wasn't the ideal person that he thought he was, but he also finds out that he can empathize (at least a little bit) with Snape, his enemy. It's kind of a shame that they hate each other so much, because it seems that they have some things in common. Also I'd like to say that it's such a shame that Snape's held onto his bitterness for so long. It's kind of pathetic and sad.

I know they are not bad people, but they were pretty cruel. I can understand how Snape feels now, I can't believe they were that mean. Harry was shocked to see that his dad wasn't perfect, and come to think of it, so was I.

I have another point just in case anyone has decided to hate James for evermore, which they haven't in this thread, but anyway:

We still don't know James as a person anywhere near as well as we know Sirius, Snape or Lupin. I think people might be more inclined to like James despite his faults if we'd seen him in other situations (we know James did some noble things). Most HP characters are too complex to be judged solely on ten minutes' footage of their life and a few bits of hearsay!

As I said somewhere else, I think James's loathing of the Dark Arts made him think he had a "duty" to be nasty to Snape as a pre-emptive strike against Snape's future crimes. Of course, that's not an excuse to abuse people for fun, and James should have realised he was making Snape MORE likely to go bad.

we are forgetting that this happened in snape's memory

everyone remembers things differently who knows maybe in lupins memory this whole incident is a little different

granted they were a little mean to him but we dont know what happened the day before that happened or even the rest of that year we all know that snape and the fab four hated each other malfoy and harry have not acted much different have we seen one time where harry and malfoy were in the same place and one of them didnt start something

i dont feel bad for snape not in the slightest i do feel bad for harry because the poor boy has been through enough without having to see his dad act like a normal teenage boy and be confused about it

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=410716#post410716))
....he backed up Sirius in the plan to kill Pettigrew without a word of dissent, for instance.


In that instance it was because he too wanted Peter dead. It might seem out of character but it's not that surprising. Imagine how he must have felt, even if he didn't seem as enraged as Sirius did right then.

He must have been unenthusiastic to tell James and Sirius off for anything because they were his mates. It must be hard for a werewolf to make friends, so when he has some, he tries not to lose them. A bit soppy, but not spineless.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=410778#post410778))
I think it is true that Lupin, if not spineless, is a bit afraid to stand up for what's right even if it's not popular (i.e., rescuing Snape). With Pettigrew, though, I think it was more that he completely agreed with Sirius' plan, than that he was merely following Sirius' lead. At other times, he reins Sirius in, who usually lets him.


I wouldn't go as far as to call Lupin spineless... remember, he's a werewolf, and i reckon james and sirius must have meant a lot to him - he'd expected them to shun him once they found out what he was. I think this can explain what he's feeling - it's a quote from one of Rowling's interviews:

I really like Professor Lupin as a character because he's someone that also has a failing, because although he is a wonderful teacher (one I myself would have liked to have had as a teacher) and a wonderful man, he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up. He's been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends, so he cuts them an awful lot of slack.

Just thought that was an interesting piece to add to the discussion :)

James and Sirius were kids. They were idiots. Period. That does not mean they were evil. I agree with the previous posts that the rather extreme (in my opinion) reactions this seems to provoke is beacuse we all thought James and Sirius were "good" guys, just like Gred and Forge. I really enjoyed the chapter because it makes the characters multi-dimensional and it makes Harry realize his father wasn't the perfect person he thought him to be, yet his father from all other accounts was a good person, worthy of admiration.
I admit, I was never really bullied in my high school but nor was I "popular." I was a downright nerd!!!! And yet, years later, I ran into a girl who was "popular" and a bit of a b**** in high school at the gym we both went to.... and she apologized. Now, honestly, not having been a target, I told her flat out that I saw no reason for her to apologize (to me) and that it was HIGH SCHOOL and it's over and done with. That same day, I ran into another girl from our high school who was not popular, but she had many friends and who could, quite frankly, be a b**** herself to those "less fortunate".
When I told her about the other girl's apology, she was downright nasty about it, saying So-and-so is a *****, her apololgies mean nothing to me, she's probably just trying to look good still.
Later, looking back on that experience, I came to realize that the girl who had apologied was someone I'd rather associate with now than the other girl who refused to accept that people change. The girl who apologized, at least, learned and matured enough to be able to apologize, while the other girl couldn't let go.
And that's how I see Snape and James. James learned, changed, matured. Snape held on and let it stew.... to the point (as someone stated) that he put his personal grudge agains the welfare of Harry and even the Order of the Phoenix. THat is the difference in the man.

On Ink's deal--Here we go. Lupin often reins in Sirius now (with the benefit of hard experience). As a kid, he was insecure and wanted his mates' approval. As an adult, though he was hesitant to reveal his checkered past to Dumbledore, he toed the line.

In OotP he was the rational parent/guardian who set limits but was aware of what his charges could take, actually somewhat of a mirror of Arthur Weasley.

In PoA--He most definitely does not follow Sirius' lead. He showed up to STOP Sirius. Let's not forget that when he arrived, he expected to be helping Pettigrew contain Black and simultaneously protect Harry. He changed his tune only when he realized that Black had switched with Pettigrew before the double-murder. Even then, he restrained Sirius, diving in front of him preventing him from killing Pettigrew and cajoling him into explaining the situation to Harry. After the explanation was complete and Peter was revealed, it was REMUS who took the lead and work together with Black. He was the one who pronounced final judgment on Peter. But, he was also the first one to listen to Harry and he conceded it was Harry's decision (rationally) not using invective like Black did: "This cringing bit of filth would have seen you die without turning a hair!" It turns out that James was probably the leader of the crew because when Harry spoke as James would have, both Marauders reacted the same way at the same time. "Black and Lupin looked at each other and, with one movement, lowered their wands." It was also Lupin who informed Pettigrew that they would bind him and take him back tot he castle but "If you transofrm, we will kill you." Black may have the hottest head, but he has the least sway as an adult.

I agree with all the people who have said that you really cannot judge James and Sirius on this one instance when they were 15. Firstly because 15 is an age when most people are very mixed up and often down right horrible, but it is usually a phase that you grow out of and we know that James and Sirius grew into brave and decent (though by no means perfect) adults.

Im not saying that what they did was acceptable - far from it, it was cruel and something they should have been ashamed of (which we know Sirius was: "Im not proud") but I really dont like the way some people are portraying snape as the poor innocent victimn and using this incident to justify his future behaviour towards Harry. Snape has revealed himself to be a far worse bully than James and Sirius - he bully's as an adult and whilst in a position of responsibility. His behaviour towards Harry can be explained though not justified by his grudge against James, but what about the way he treats Neville!? He makes Neville feel useless and worthless, he picks on him in front of all of his class mates, and what is really bad is the fact that he is picking on someone who is clearly not his equal, that shows he is a real coward.

James and Sirius were cruel to Snape but he was there own age and they knew he could match them if he wanted to (after all he knew more about the dark arts when he arrived at school than most of the 7th years.) Also it should be remembered that in book 4 we discover that Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be death eaters - including Bellatrix! In the pensive we see Snape as a peculiar loner, being picked on by a 'popular' group of boys, but its quite possible that other memories would have shown snape, bellatrix and co. picking on one of the marauderers who they found alone, and I can imagine them being 10x more cruel.

Originally posted by Andromeda_Black (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=431379#post431379))
James and Sirius were cruel to Snape but he was there own age and they knew he could match them if he wanted to


Yeah? Two against one, with two other friends standing by as backup? Brave Gryffindors...

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=431419#post431419))
Yeah? Two against one, with two other friends standing by as backup? Brave Gryffindors...


Right, Inky, it was pretty shameful of them (though, to be fair, it was James who did the picking, Sirius was just watching, as I recall).

I think Andromeda's point remains though, that we shouldn't be too quick to sympathize too much with Snivellus. We don't know what he did as a 15-year old boy, besides those few quick flashes of memory that Harry saw. That can't excuse how James and Sirius treated him; just means that Snivellus may not be merely an innocent victim of Jame's twisted humor. The jury is still out on the complexity of the relationship of James and Snape, I think.

You don't get the whole whole picture with just one half of the canvas. We saw one horrible memory of Snape's. It was stupid of James to behave that way. But one memory doesn't account for their whole time in school together, does it? It probably wasn't always like that, before OR after. You can isolate some pretty awful things people have done to Draco but that doesn't mean that Draco is the victim and Harry and the rest are the bullies. Bit of a black a white picture there.

I agree with Cat. That was Snape's worst memory. I don't think they acted like that all the time, but we don't really know. And while I was so dissappointed in them when I read that chapter, they were kids and kids do stupid things. I don't think that that one incident characterizes their behavior for their whole lives.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=431446#post431446))
Right, Inky, it was pretty shameful of them (though, to be fair, it was James who did the picking, Sirius was just watching, as I recall).

No, I reread it. Sirius tripped Snape when he tried to get his wand. He was in there, too.

Well, honestly, people, d'you really expect the Maruaders to be perfect? My first reaction to Snape's Worst Memory was the standard 'oh-my-goodness-James-and-Sirius-are-horrible-people', and I was very disappointed in them. But after quite a bit of rumination, I can rummage up an 'excuse' for each and every Marauder's action both in and out of that chapter.

Let's start with James. Smart, Head Boy, popular, well-rounded, an exceptional Quidditch player, very wealthy, PURE-BLOOD...does this sound like someone we know? Someone just a tad like...Draco Malfoy, perhaps? When you have this wealth and popularity and this much potential for life, heads inflate. A lot. What he did wasn't right, but you can't blame him. A person is really characterized by their backgrounds, and James' background leads to his behavior. Anybody who truly despises James Potter for what he did to Snape should really reconsider the reality of the situation here.

Sirius Black. Second in command. Sirius came from a VERY horrible family, the 'Malfoy' type of people. This is unlikely, but a trace of their meanness may have rubbed off on him. We find out in OotP that he hated his family. And well, Snape seems like he could've fit in well with the Black heritage. So in a way, I think that Sirius sees Severus as an extended part of his family, someone sneaky and brilliant that's conveniently in Slytherin, someone who has great potential to hate mixed breeds and those different from him. So if that were to be true, it's no surprise Sirius acted the way he did to Snape.

For our third Maruader, Remus Lupin, well, I can't believe some people are BLAMING him or giving him the responsibility for the way Snape was treated. Maybe it's because he's my personal favorite character. Whatever the case, I can tell you that Lupin had nothing to do with the whole scene. Nothing. Zero. Zip, nada. Sure, he COULD'VE stopped it, but so could probably 20 other people at the time. Why do people blame him for something that 'could've' or 'should've' been done? That's no reason to hold a grudge against him. And of course, there's always the fact that Lupin suffered a very hard childhood and needed to be accepted. When you've never had friends who liked you for who you actually were, it's quite hard to stand up against something they've probably been doing for many years.

Well, last and definitely least is ickle Peter Pettigrew. I have no reason to stick up for him, and I doubt that anyone doesn't like him...but even so, if he'd said something to stop James and Sirius, it doesn't seem likely that J and S would've even batted an eye. So there, Peter, I'm the only person in the universe that ever said anything to defend you, you stupid little BETRAYER.

With all this off my chest, I stand firmly in belief that nobody is guilty for what happened to Snape. And although it was WRONG, does anybody agree with me that this is an excellent example of character development? We really get to see what the Marauders were like, and despite their foolish actions, I'm glad she added that chapter. MWPP still rock, and they always will!

Originally posted by RJLupin89 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=431884#post431884))
Well, honestly, people, d'you really expect the Maruaders to be perfect?

That's a brilliant defense. 'Nobody's perfect.' I wonder why that defense doesn't come up in assault trials more often?


Let's start with James. Smart, Head Boy, popular, well-rounded, an exceptional Quidditch player, very wealthy, PURE-BLOOD...does this sound like someone we know? Someone just a tad like...Draco Malfoy, perhaps? When you have this wealth and popularity and this much potential for life, heads inflate. A lot. What he did wasn't right, but you can't blame him. A person is really characterized by their backgrounds, and James' background leads to his behavior. Anybody who truly despises James Potter for what he did to Snape should really reconsider the reality of the situation here.


You're saying that we can't blame James for attacking Snape because of James' background and popularity? So, being spoiled and popular absolves you of responsibility?

Are you a Draco fan, then? After all, nothing he's done is his own fault...



Sirius Black. Second in command. Sirius came from a VERY horrible family, the 'Malfoy' type of people. This is unlikely, but a trace of their meanness may have rubbed off on him. We find out in OotP that he hated his family. And well, Snape seems like he could've fit in well with the Black heritage. So in a way, I think that Sirius sees Severus as an extended part of his family, someone sneaky and brilliant that's conveniently in Slytherin, someone who has great potential to hate mixed breeds and those different from him. So if that were to be true, it's no surprise Sirius acted the way he did to Snape.

I agree with some of this, but Sirius is SUPPOSEDLY rebelling against his family's values...so why is he acting like them?


For our third Maruader, Remus Lupin, well, I can't believe some people are BLAMING him or giving him the responsibility for the way Snape was treated. Maybe it's because he's my personal favorite character. Whatever the case, I can tell you that Lupin had nothing to do with the whole scene. Nothing. Zero. Zip, nada. Sure, he COULD'VE stopped it, but so could probably 20 other people at the time.

How many of those other 20 were Prefects, whose responsibility was to stop trouble from happening (rather than sitting on their cans pretending not to see it?)

Well, last and definitely least is ickle Peter Pettigrew. I have no reason to stick up for him, and I doubt that anyone doesn't like him...but even so, if he'd said something to stop James and Sirius, it doesn't seem likely that J and S would've even batted an eye.


We'll never know, will we? Because he never said anything...

In a way Snape got his own back on James, he made his only son feel ashamed of him, which would be a very bad thing for any father, and is far worse than hanging upside down with your pants showing, Harry might not ever think about his father with such pride anymore.

Originally posted by Buckbeak (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=432084#post432084))
In a way Snape got his own back on James, he made his only son feel ashamed of him, which would be a very bad thing for any father, and is far worse than hanging upside down with your pants showing, Harry might not ever think about his father with such pride anymore.


True, but Snape would much rather Harry didn't see the scene. Once again, like about half the altercations Harry has had with Snape, it was Harry's own actions that caused it to happen.

I agree fully that Snape was wrong to pick on Harry, assuming he was like his father. But almost every time Snape and Harry have a major run-in, it's because Harry broke the rules, or talked back or something.

In SS, the trio stood in the courtyard trying to look innocent...naturally Snape came over to check them out! He confiscated a library book, saying they were not allowed to be taken outside. Harry ASSUMED Snape made up the rule, but after seeing Madame Pince's reaction to chocolate in the library--wanna bet?

Did anyone force Harry to sneak around listening into Snape's conversations? Did anyone force him to steal the flying car? Did anyone force him to throw a firecracker into Goyle's cauldron? Did anyone force him to sneak into Hogsmeade? Did anyone force him to go into the Pensieve? Did anyone force him to yell his head off at Snape when he was subbing for Lupin's DADA class?

Half the 'horrible, unfair' things Snape has done in the book series are perfectly reasonable, if you look at it from a different perspective than that of a preadolescent kid feeling sorry for himself.

Yeah, the Marauders were young and stupid. It doesn't excuse what they did, though. It doesn't give them an easy cop-out. What Snape has done wrong is his own responsibility, and does not absolve the Marauders of blame for their own actions. What Harry has done wrong is his own responsibility, as well.

No, we shouldn't judge them as people for what they did then, any more than we should judge Snape entirely for becoming a Death Eater and picking on Harry, or base our entire judgement of Harry on his tendency to snoop and ignore rules. But what they did is still part of them, and they are as responsible for the actions of their past selves as they are their future selves. Apparently James learned from his mistakes and straightened out. So did Remus. Sirius didn't seem to learn much, he was as happy to pick fights as ever. Peter seems to not have improved much. :p

So everyone knock off the "It's okay because they were good-looking and popular and Snape was/is an ugly git" defense, please. If anything, privileged people are LESS exusable for misbehavior than others. (Though they are certainly allowed to get away with more.)

You're forgetting something Ink. Snape is pursuing his own agenda in Lupin's class trying to get him sacked. Harry did nothing more than ask a question "Where's Professor Lupin?" and state a truth "He's the best Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor we've ever had." That statement is still true two years later. In fact, Snape was so eager to find fault with Lupin's teaching method that he screwed up basic facts (The kappa is a Japanese water demon, can somebody please point to the tremendous amount of saltwater in Mongolia where these things would be living?) Furthermore, it was Ron who got detention for cheek--again deserved. Snape was intent on embarrassing the class and forcing them ALL to look up the characteristics of a werewolf so he could out Lupin. Hermione got in the way because she knew the answer already. Ron's quibble is more than justified "Why ask questions if you don't want to know the answers?" [you hook-nosed :grumble:]

On every other occassion, except for two, Snape is justified.

First, CoS--Harry, Hermione & Ron aren't out of bounds and their refusal to give a detailed explanation beyond "We were at the Deathday Party" is not a punishable offense. From the way Mrs. Norris was tortured, it's obvious that three second-years alone armed with nothing but their wands could not have Petrified her. And Snape knows this. But he's decided to make hay of the situation by suggesting that Harry be thrown off the Quidditich team until he's completely forthcoming. Yet, Snape recognizes the attack and knows what's required to perform it. He also knows that Harry can't do this. This is the moment when he acts most like an adult version of Draco Malfoy--aside perhaps from his maniacal soul-sucking frenzy in PoA which given the history is undersandable. This isn't.

Second, GoF--There is absolutely no evidence that Harry put his own name into the Goblet. Had he tried, he would have looked like Fred & George, the Age Line would have caught him. Plus, if you don't believe him, suggest Veritaserum. GRR.

Good points Inkwolf and jordmundt6!!!! Snape isn't always right in his actions, nor is anyone. I have do many things to harm people, and so has everyone else. Its a common human fault. Its life.

[quote]Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=432001#post432001))


You're saying that we can't blame James for attacking Snape because of James' background and popularity? So, being spoiled and popular absolves you of responsibility?

Are you a Draco fan, then? After all, nothing he's done is his own fault...

Nope, I am NOT a Draco fan. But I don't hate him like a lot of other people. It's just that from observation and experience, I think money leads to power and power leads to corruption, ultimately. It's not like James or Draco are corrupt to the extreme point (like Stalin), no, but coming from a family that has house elves and servants, well, a person gets pampered. This isn't true in every case, especially if the person started out not being rich or powerful. But as far as I'm concerned, neither James nor Draco really suffered in the past the way that Harry, Hermoine, Ron, Lupin, Sirius and many other characters did.

I hate to say this, but James and Draco were/are obviously spoiled. And not only money-wise, but talent-wise also. Smart, popular, good at Quidditch, etc. And well, after you're 'better' at somebody at something, you begin to think you're 'better' than them in other areas. That is why I believe James felt like he had the right to pick on Snape. And I don't like it, by any means, but I don't blame him.

Half the 'horrible, unfair' things Snape has done in the book series are perfectly reasonable, if you look at it from a different perspective than that of a preadolescent kid feeling sorry for himself. - Ink

The thing is, you say "half". I agree with you, but i think the implications of that are much worse than your post seems to imply.

On every other occassion, except for two, Snape is justified. - jord
I don't agree, actually, i think there are many instances of Snape being very much in the wrong in the book, than the two you pointed out. I'll just list the ones i can think of:

1) In the Shrieking Shack.
Lupin: "You fool. Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man into Azkaban" (not exact quote). This is an arguable circumstance - but Lupin and Black claim they have proof in front of them, to prove black's innocence - and he refuses to hear it - showing how intense his hate is, that he cannot overcome it to see justice done.

2) His general bullying of Harry. Most of the time, it's nothing horrible, but remember that on the first day, he picks on harry just because he's james' son, and, generally, is very nasty.

3) He's awful to Neville. Perhaps this is because Snape remembers his childhood days of being bullied, and now has the power to bully others - and seizes the opportunity to pick on neville. But you must all see how horrible this is - and Snape is old enough, i think, to understand how much misery he is causing in Neville - he even bullies him in front of Lupin. Having had a miserable childhood is no excuse, IMO.

4) Snape constantly docking points from Gryffindor, but never from Slytherin. Eg, when Malfoy and Harry duel in the 4th book, and their curses bounce off one another, and Hermione and Goyle are hurt. Snape takes points off Gryffindor, but when he looks at Hermione's overgrown teeth he says "i see no difference". That's just plain nasty.

Overall, i think SNape's just become a really twisted and bitter character. He seems to take pleasure in inflicting pain, and abuses his position of power, as a teacher. On the other hand, you have to feel sorry for him, given his childhood - but really, he's just a horrible guy.

I found Snape's memory to be one of the most entertaining parts of the book. While I was a lil surprised that James and Sirius were so mean, it didn't change my overall opinion of them; I still love the Marauders =) (expecting Wormtail =P)

<a href="http://www.behindthemasks.com/dawnatello/harrypotter/quiz" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.behindthemasks.com/dawnatello/harrypotter/quiz/padfoot.jpg" border=0></a><br><a href="http://www.behindthemasks.com/dawnatello/harrypotter" target="_Blank">Which Harry Potter Marauder Are You?</a>

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=432291#post432291))
You're forgetting something Ink. Snape is pursuing his own agenda in Lupin's class trying to get him sacked. Harry did nothing more than ask a question "Where's Professor Lupin?" and state a truth "He's the best Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor we've ever had." That statement is still true two years later


No, I think you're forgetting the events leading up to the point-taking. Snape did not take points off for their saying Lupin was their best teacher.

Harry lost points first for being ten minutes late, and lost more points for arguing with Snape and refusing to sit down...and his argument with Snape had nothing to do with Lupin's qualifications, just with Snape's refusal to tell Harry why Lupin wasn't there himself.

And, yes, Snape was trying to 'out' Lupin and get him sent away. Have you considered that he had a good point? Lupin apparently had to be chased after and nagged to take his Wolfsbane potion, and ended up forgetting it entirely and nearly killing three students....

And, yes, Snape was trying to 'out' Lupin and get him sent away. Have you considered that he had a good point? Lupin apparently had to be chased after and nagged to take his Wolfsbane potion, and ended up forgetting it entirely and nearly killing three students....

Firstly, there isn't any evidence that "Lupin had to be chased and nagged to take his Wolfsbane potion" -- he had to drink it as Snape brewed it, when Snape brings it up to Lupin's office, and Harry's there, Snape says "you should drink that directly". From the two instances we're given regarding SNape, Lupin, and the potion, it seems that Snape was bringing it up to Lupin's office after he'd brewed it. There's absolutely no evidence of "nagging". I can see the point you're making - and what you are saying is entirely possible - but as there's no evidence to support it, i don't think it's really a fair point.

Secondly - are you saying that Snape trying to show the students that Lupin was a werewolf was right? After all, Dumbledore employed Lupin, and trusted him -- just as Dumbledore had trusted Snape, in fact. Snape knew that if it was widely known that Lupin was a werewolf, complaints would come from parents (as Lupin said at the end of the book), and Lupin would have to leave. In other words, Snape didn't like DD's decision, and took things into his own hands.

Also, Snape's point was not the danger of Lupin being a werewolf as far as we know - from what we're told in the 3rd book, Snape tries to tell DD that he thinks Lupin had been helping Sirius into the castle - which was not true.

Originally posted by seerius (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=433185#post433185))
Firstly, there isn't any evidence that "Lupin had to be chased and nagged to take his Wolfsbane potion"

The only reason Snape came to Lupin's office and saw the map was that he noticed that Lupin had forgotten to drink his potion, and Snape was running after him with it.


Secondly - are you saying that Snape trying to show the students that Lupin was a werewolf was right? After all, Dumbledore employed Lupin, and trusted him -- just as Dumbledore had trusted Snape, in fact. Snape knew that if it was widely known that Lupin was a werewolf, complaints would come from parents (as Lupin said at the end of the book), and Lupin would have to leave. In other words, Snape didn't like DD's decision, and took things into his own hands.


There is no doubt he believed himself justified in taking measures against someone who, in the past, was trusted by Dumbledore and betrayed Dumbledore's trust.....who Snape believed had been part of a plot to murder him...who was not only a real danger by himself but in the past had shown little interest in curbing the violent behavior of his friends....one of which had turned out to (apparently) be a mass murderer who was now trying to enter the school.

Lupin himself said to Harry that he didn't blame Snape for blabbing. And Sirius certainly had no grounds to blame Snape for not trusting his story.

Anyway, the whole PoA thing has been talked to death already.

Anyway, the whole PoA thing has been talked to death already.

Yeah, well, you brought it up, not moi :p :rasp: :rasp:
Jk... ;)

The only reason Snape came to Lupin's office and saw the map was that he noticed that Lupin had forgotten to drink his potion, and Snape was running after him with it.

Yeah, Lupin didn't take the potion that time - perhaps he forgot - or maybe Snape usually brought it to him - there are any number of explanations. But i think you're just reading too much into it - the only point i was making there was that i think a broad, sweeping statement like:

Lupin apparently had to be chased after and nagged to take his Wolfsbane potion

... is unjustified. That's all ;)

****
There is no doubt he believed himself justified in taking measures against someone who, in the past, was trusted by Dumbledore and betrayed Dumbledore's trust.....
Actually, snape didn't know about the others being Animagi - we know this because he doesn't recognise Sirius as the shaggy dog in the office in book 4 - and i think there's evidence elsewhere, too. So he didn't know of him betryaing DD's trust. I think it's unlikely, that if Snape had known - that he would have concealed it from DD, anyway - Snape was really intent on getting Lupin sacked, i'm sure he would've given DD all the information that he had about Lupin, that he thought would help to get him sacked.

...who Snape believed had been part of a plot to murder him...who was not only a real danger by himself but in the past had shown little interest in curbing the violent behavior of his friends....one of which had turned out to (apparently) be a mass murderer who was now trying to enter the school.
The thing is, as i said above ^, Snape would've put as strong a case against Lupin as he could have. I'm sure DD knew as much as Snape did about Lupin - and Snape would've known this. So there is no excuse for Snape to take things into his own hands - Dumbledore is no doddering fool -- he is much wiser and knowledgable than Snape is - and Snape knows that. There is no justification in him taking things into his own hands to get Lupin sacked.

Lupin himself said to Harry that he didn't blame Snape for blabbing.
Yeah, it still doesn't make it right, though. Lupin is gracious and fair about the whole matter - and he sees things from Snape's point of view - it's just a pity Snape doesn't work the same way.

When it comes to it - apart from SIrius trying to get him killed using Lupin, Lupin's done nothing wrong to Snape that we know of. In fact... he makes James and Sirius feel bad about humiliating him. True, it would've been nicer if Lupin had actually stopped them - but still, lupin's less guilty, IMO, than the other gryffindor's who watched and cheered James and Sirius on... but i'm just rambling now.. ^___^

ok, so no matter what is assumed, pple are not sqeaky clean
the memory of snape just goes to showthat the bigger they are, the harder they fall, but hey, after all, we know nothing about why james altered himself in the seventh year, or why snape continued to loathe him. but there isnt a single soul in the world who hasnt hit one rough spot while growing up.....evryone has adolescene - related problems......dudley with obescity, harry with anger and yearning about his past, ron with jealousy and spark to do better than his brothers, hermoine with learning to brighten up, neville with showing his true gryffindor bravery, similarly, snape with his parents marriage in troubled waters and james with being touted as a perect guy- it HAD to reach his head, i mean, come on...who wouldnt like complete attention for completely correct reasons? also, i blieve there is more to snape than just his "existence" ........ gotta be something that made him hate him...probably his fascination with the dark arts?

Yup, i agree with you there, Cish_hp92 - no one's perfect - and i think rowling's created the characters with enough dept for us to see why - or at least suspect why particular characters behave in certain ways.

Also - i think you're right about James having a reason to attack Snape, other than his mere "existence". I think him using that phrase is just his way of further degrading him - James may have hexed people who bothered him - but i don't htink he'd have treated snape the way he did unless he had some deeper motive. Again, i'm not saying that's a justification - i'm just saying that i don't think james was so horrible that he'd publicly humiliate someone *just* for the fun of it - there must've been something more to it than that.

***
@ Inkwolf - I just had something more to comment on about your latest post:

And Sirius certainly had no grounds to blame Snape for not trusting his story.

The character flaw in Snape that i was talking about was not due to the fact that he didn't believe Sirius - I think the hatred in Snape was so intense that, firstly, he was unable to forget it after 20+ years, and, secondly, that he was unable to push aside his wish for vengence in order to see justice done.

Take the following quote:

"Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...."

[a bit omitted]

"You -you've got to hear me out," he [Sirius] croaked. "The rat -- look at the rat --"

But there was a mad glint in Snape's eyes that Harry had never seen before. He seemed beyond reason.

"Come on, all of you," he said. He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin flew to his hands. "I'll drag the werewolf. Perhaps the dementors will have a kiss for him too --"


The words "mad glint" and "beyond reason", i think, tell us pretty clearly that what Snape is doing is not in the face of what is just - but rather, to serve his own purposes. The passage shows that he doesn't care whether Sirius is innocent or not, which is why he refuses to hear their story. With Lupin tied up, and Black wand-less, he's got nothing to lose by hearing their story - they've got no chance of escape. I think it's pretty clear here that he just wants revenge, and that he's using the circumstances to remove the soul of a man who is, from his point of view, possibly innocent - but he couldn't care less.

I think Lupin sums up the situation pretty well:
You fool," said Lupin softly. "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?"

^ For which Snape ties him up...

I think after reading the 5th book, it's impossible *not* to pity Snape. Considering how he was humiliated as a child, many ppl will find it easy to forgive him for continuing to hate lupin and sirius, and getting digs in whenever he can. Some may even forgive him for being awful for harry, though it's not his fault - and even for getting lupin sacked.

But i think there has to be somewhere to draw the line - Snape would've happily seen 2 innocent men have their souls sucked out by dementors, as revenge for childhood bullying, and a prank. Snape may have turned away from the "Dark Side", but he's still got at least one aspect of evil in him, ie, extreme hatred.

Well, others my disagree, but I loved Snape's Worst Memory. Everyone made a mistake - James, Sirius, Lupin AND Snape. But a good guy isn't an angel, and a bad guy isn't a demon. JKR is just protraying some human flaws and explaining why Snape acts so cruelly to Harry.

Hehe, i luved Snape's Worst Memory too, i luv hearing about the Marauders, no matter how awful they're being... I admit i'm probably highly biased when it comes to them, i really have a soft spot for the 3 of them (nope, pettegrew doesn't count, git).

I dunno what you took my meaning to be, but i think i pretty much agree with all you said - i don't think either snape or james are devils, or angels... lily's an angel tho :angel: ... and lupin comes close... or so i'd like to think... :angel:

Although i suppose i was dissapointed at James and Sirius for what they did, you have to remeber that in the end they fought on the good side.
Like someone else said on here (don't remember who) but you have to think of James as being the person who sacrificed his life for his wife and child and who spent a lot of time being friends with Lupin after no one else would.
Yes James and Sirius did wrong but if everyone was judged by mistakes they did when they were younger i don't think this world would be none to friendly with each other.

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=432001#post432001))
That's a brilliant defense. 'Nobody's perfect.' I wonder why that defense doesn't come up in assault trials more often?


Oh, don't be so tetchy.

Nobody, I don't think, can actually excuse them for what they did. I don't think anybody here is trying to. But it explains their actions to say that 'nobody's perfect'. There's no point in whinging and whining about who rotten they are when you know that yourself or people you admire has done pretty much the same thing in the past. Inexcusable, but there's no fault in the character there. Or rather, there IS a fault, but it's the kind of fault everybody has. It's a human trait. You might as well put someone on trial for farting.

I definetly agree with you that teenagers will be teenagers and what they do while they are young can be completely opposite of what they will do when they are older. My parents used to be young and wild punk rockers who smoked a lot of pot lol, but now they both hold really respectable jobs and are quite serious people. Just goes to show you that people change from their adolescent mind frames. I don't hate them at all--I think james sounded cute lol :love:

[i]Originally posted by Inkwolf

And, yes, Snape was trying to 'out' Lupin and get him sent away. Have you considered that he had a good point? Lupin apparently had to be chased after and nagged to take his Wolfsbane potion, and ended up forgetting it entirely and nearly killing three students....


You seriously expect us to believe that Snape wanted Lupin 'outed' to protect the students!? This is the potions master who has threatened to poison his class in the past!

The only reason Snape wanted to 'out' Lupin was because he still held a childhood grudge (over an issue that really didnt even involve Lupin) and because he was JEALOUS! Lupin had the job Snape has always wanted and he is described by most of Harry's class as "The best defence against the dark arts teacher we ever had!" I doubt any pupil (apart from maybe Malfoy) has described Snape as the best teacher they have ever had -he is an appauling teacher which is shown by the fact that Harry and Neville performed much better at the subject when Snape was not around (in the exam)

Snape's jealousy and bitterness caused all the pupils to lose a brilliant teacher. If it wasnt for him, Crouch (in the form of Moody) and Umbridge would never have got jobs at the school and just think of the damage they have caused! Lupin was not a big danger to pupils, we have no evidence that he was careless with regards to taking his potion, he only forgot that one night because he had quite a lot else on his mind! He ran down to the shrieking shack with the intention of saving Harry form Sirius who he thought was a murderer, I think he can be forgiven for that!

Yup, exactly, Andromeda_Black :) Kewl name, btw :D

he is an appauling teacher which is shown by the fact that Harry and Neville performed much better at the subject when Snape was not around (in the exam)
Yeah, i don't exactly fancy having a teacher who breathes down your back and delights in failing ppl.

Like someone else said on here (don't remember who) but you have to think of James as being the person who sacrificed his life for his wife and child and who spent a lot of time being friends with Lupin after no one else would.
Yeah, you could make a long list of all the good personality qualities of James Potter:
- Sacrificed his life for wife and child
- Made friends with Lupin despite him being a werewolf
- Risked his life to save Snape
- He was in the Order of the Phoenix, ie, he risked his life to fight for what was right

Good personality traits in Harry that he got from James:
- Mercy and forgiveness (He would've spared Pettigrew's life)
- Brave (James would've risked his life to retrieve Cedric's body)

Originally posted by seerius (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=435327#post435327))
Yeah, you could make a long list of all the good personality qualities of James Potter:
- Sacrificed his life for wife and child
- Made friends with Lupin despite him being a werewolf
- Risked his life to save Snape
- He was in the Order of the Phoenix, ie, he risked his life to fight for what was right


...and would Malfoy or Dudley do any of those things? James was an arrogant bully but that's not all he was. Excellent points, seerius.

do you think it was the 'torchering' from the boys that caused snape to be such a lousy guy, or somemthing that happened in his past (i.e. the memory harry tapped into of a little boy cyring in the corner while his, supposed, dad was yelling at his mom)?

Originally posted by Puffskein (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=438677#post438677))
...and would Malfoy or Dudley do any of those things?


How do you know they wouldn't? Hasn't come up yet, has it?

ohh scary thought. i dunno...malfoy always kinda creeped me out, and esp. with the death threats and such...i dunno, i think he's probably worse than snape. at least snape works for the order. he may be a prat, but malfoy is evil, you know?

Sorry, i know i'm a bit late getting in here but, i couldn't help commenting on this:

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=438716#post438716))
How do you know they wouldn't? Hasn't come up yet, has it?


Lol, can you see Malfoy making friends with a werewolf? I mean, (a) He's disrespectful towards Lupin and laughs at the "state of his robes", and also (b) He calls Hermione a "mudblood".

At least the latter shows that he's inclined to discriminate on the basis of blood .

So i think you can at least rule out him making friends with someone he knows to be a werewolf...

As for the other situations - well, in book 1, when they're in the forest, and Quirrell/Voldie appears under the cloak, and harry's left alone with him approaching, Malfoy just runs for it, and leaves harry to his fate. So i think you can rule out the option of Malfoy of risking his life for an enemy.

***
As for Dudley, well, I think he's just a spoilt kid that's pretty cowardly when he doesn't have a couple of pals to back him up... course, we don't know, but it's kinda unlikely, isn't it? :lol:

I've been thinking about the Marauders' friendship in the light of what we learned in OOTP.

James and Sirius were the best students in their year. Everyone (at least in their own house) must have wanted to be friends with them. Who did they choose to hang out with? A fat kid with very little talent and a (relatively) sensible, bookish kid who's ill all the time. I think if James and Sirius had really been horrible people, they would have seen Remus and Peter as prime bullying targets. But they didn't.

OK, I can see plenty of selfish reasons for J & S to let Peter hang around - he worshipped them and massaged their egos. But what about Remus? He was less talented than J&S but doesn't strike me as the hero-worshipping type. It strikes me that Remus needed James and Sirius's friendship more than they needed his. There might have been selfish reasons for them to become Animagi but Lupin in POA makes it sound like the others were good friends with him before they worked out what was wrong with him. They could have abandoned him anytime, but they didn't.

The Marauders were TRUE friends. Three of them would have died rather than betray the others. I can't see Dudley's gang or Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle doing that. Inkwolf, I am willing to eat my words if Malfoy or Dudley ever do anything noble, but on current evidence I will continue to believe that James was a better person than either of them.

Had a thought as I was re-reading the book last night...

What if memories are skewed... what I mean is - the memories in the Pensieve were Obviously Snapes and it can be concluded, told from Snapes point of view which would naturally throw James and Sirius in a bad light...

Think of it this way - when two people get in an argument - they share different points of view and often see things as having happened very differently... therefore - if Harry took a walk in James' memory - he'd see something different - like James minding his own business and then Snape doing something subtle to provoke and force a confrontation...

See what I mean? Dumbledore being a more fair and reasonable man - less driven by passion - would see things as they are not as he feels - so the account of Crouch's trial in the Pensieve could be reliable...

I really think that memories are biased and like rumors - become more outrageouse as one continues to think on them and dwell on them over the years... why else would we dread highschool reunions and hold grudges for years?

See what I mean? James and Sirius may have been punks but not necessarily mean people...

Who cares if they were mean to some sneaky, slimy kid... Man! They obviously get in to a lot of fights, I mean, it even said Snape had his wand ready. Once they fight a couple of times, fights can start over minor incidents. ANd Snape was always sneaking around trying to get them expelled and I also think it wasn't a coincidence that Snape was behind the bush near the lake. He was probably eavesdropping, or that is what it looked like to James and Sirius. And the memory of the Maruaders is my favorite chapter, and they seemed exactly like me and my friends, I was shocked to notice, except, of course, we dont make fun of people and embarass them.

hem hem ( ;) )
there is no mention of them thinking snape was eavesdropping--the book clearly says he was absorbed in his OWL paper and sirius and james were just bored. now don't get me wrong, i do like the marauders, but snape isn't necessarily all to blame. i mean, after all, he was the one beig attacked, they started it, you know. and that doesn't make them bad people, and they certainly must have grown out of it, it just makes them very roudy and kinda cr-ppy people to pick on snape like that. though, harry does the same thing to malfoy and we can understand it, so...it couldn't have been as TERRIBLE as it seemed...but still.

I don't think memories are based and like rumors, I mean, Dumbledore said in GoF that the Pensieve is used to analise the thoughts, so I think the thoughts are not related with what the person think, when ypu remember of a fact you remember it like it was, you just analise it in your point of view, it's confuse, isn't it?

Halfred

Yeah, well said Puffskein. Another thing to add to your thing about Remus not being the hero-worshipping type is in Harry's conversation with Sirius and Remus - Sirius says that Remus made him and James feel "guilty sometimes" - so it's not like he's definately not a yes-man, he has a spine of his own. And, unlike the other gryffindors watching and cheering, Remus pretended to absorb himself in a book. Not exactly an ego-stroking thing to do...

Maybe Inkwolf will have a different slant to put to that, though? She (or is it he?, sorry) generally takes an interesting opposite view to most of my comments :)

***

In regard to the penseive - i've come across several discussions regarding it, but i'm firmly of the belief that it records events objectively, not necessarily as the person (snape) saw it - otherwise, it'd be more like harry's dreams, and would be seen through the eye of the particular person.

I still think James and Sirius are good persons. I mean, first, they were young, and we can't analyse the episode of the pensieve and then say James and Sirius are bad. We see the episode through Snape's memory and so through Snape's eyes. Would it be the same if we have seen it through Sirius' memory?
Besides, we know they are both brave, that they have sacrified their life to fight Voldemort and to protect Harry. I think it's a good thing Harry idealize them, don't we all need heros? Harry needs people he can identify with, especially in this difficult time of his life.

Originally posted by seerius (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=455348#post455348))
Maybe Inkwolf will have a different slant to put to that, though? She (or is it he?, sorry) generally takes an interesting opposite view to most of my comments :)


It's she. ;)

I agree with you on this one, mainly. I was glad to know that Lupin at least tried to make them see reason after the fact, and that he didn't take part.

But if he wasn't willing to fulfill his duties as a prefect, he should have returned the prefect badge...he had a responsibility, and he shirked it because he was afraid of offending his friends.

Yeah, I know--in a perfect world, right? :) Still, Lupin was the best of the Marauders. Now that Sirius and James are gone and Wormtail is very much on the other side, and Lupin is no longer in the job Snape's been begging Dumbledore for for 14 years, I'm hoping Snape will learn to act like an adult toward Lupin.

i think that the line about "his mere existence" is just a cover statement made by james make himself look all casual (remember the arrogance). The pranks and hatred are probably mutual a la the cold war, only this particular feud was so one-sided that it really makes james look bad. In other words, I think Snape probably has popped some good ones on james as well, and this latest episode was just one part of their continuing series of retaliations.

I don't know about other people, but I could NEVER hate Sirius or James!! Sirius is my favourite character (obviously..just look at my sig! lol) and James comes pretty high on the list, too. I'm 15 and I know for a fact that we DO do things that are mean sometimes..but that doesn't stop us from being good people.

Do people really hate them? It seems to me that most people were just disappointed at James' behaviour (I think everyone expected it from Sirius). Obviously he was a good person; people like Hagrid and Dumbledore say it all the time! I think the point of the chapter was mainly to show were Snape was coming from. I have always really liked Snape, not because he is mean to Harry, but because I knew there was so much behind him. I knew he wouldn't hate Harry so much for no reason. I think it was also to keep Harry from running away with an idea of his father being perfect.

I for one do not hate them. I just think it was a shame that they did that to Snape.

Sorry but I don't reckon we have enough information to judge James's and Sirius's behavior. The Pensieve scene was probably taken out of context - I mean we don't know what happened before or after. While I don't think it was an isolated incident, James and Sirius might have just have reacted to something Snape did prior.

I think JKR wanted us to be shocked and she was quite successful I must admit. I am sure that now that our attitude towards Snape has softened a bit she will certainly let us see another side of him that will make us change our minds again.

After all, Snape should not hold the son responsible for the father's acts. I am quite sure Snape was not totally innocent ...

One thing is certain, something crucial happened to James during his seventh year to make him realize he was not always right, perhaps if was when he saved Snape's life.

well, i'm a minority here, but that scene made me hate snape even more. First off, just understand that i'm NOT saying what james and sirius did was just fine, because it WAS wrong, i'm just trying to justify their reasons for it-okay, so first off, somebody in the series has once said that when snape first arrived at hogwarts, he knew more hexes then half the 7 years, right? And he also seems like the kind of guy who used to use the term mudblood quite freely. And it might have been a fanfiction, but i seem to remember somebody saying that snape could hex up a storm. And we know that he did become a deatheater, no matter how briefly, he became one. All that together makes me think that if you put him with james and sirius, who are the exact opposite, you're going to get a rivalry. And with that said, i don't think that this was something james and sirius just did out of the blue for the heck of it, i do think there was reasoning for it somewhere. Another thing to remember is that it's snape's worst memory. SNAPE'S. When my ex best friend and i got into the fight that made us the enemies we are today, we seemed to have very different versions of the story, but i can see now we were both wrong in the situation, and that's what the james/sirius/snape fight seemed like to me. They were both wrong, but we just saw it from snape's end. Sirius and james shouldn't have taunted him and put bubbles in his mouth, etc, but snape didn't need to physically injure james or call lily a mudblood. And let's remember that if snape had reached his wand, it's likely sirius would still be nursing wounds. So overall, i didn't feel either side was right in that situation, so i went on to the future to see how they matured-
books 1 and 2-Snape is treating harry horribly because he didn't like his father. He picks on neville longbottom and favors his slytherin students. All that doesn't make me a fan of the guy at all.
book 3-Sirius escapes from azkaban because he wanted to make sure peter didn't hurt harry or get away with killing his best friend and his wife. Lupin is being perfectly nice to snape. Snape is still being awful to harry, calls hermione a know it all and makes her cry, tries to spill lupin's secret so he'll have to leave, and worst of all-is going to have the kiss put on sirius and have lupin thrown in azkaban, all because of a petty grudge and his own selfish want for recognition and an order of merlin first class.
book 4-once again, sirius is living off rats to help harry, and snape is still hating him because of who his father is and being awful to anybody who isn't a slytherin.
book 5-same case as the last book. Snape even pushes sirius about not doing anything useful for the order, the last thing that sirius needs right then. And the fight during the time he comes over to inform harry he's going to take occlumency lessons, snape starts it by insulting harry, which causes sirius to react, which causes snape to react back, etc.
and let's not forget that james gaven up his life to protect lily and harry. Wow, what a selfish stuck up guy, huh? So basically what i'm trying to say is that that memory made me see that sirius and james weren't perfect, but that they grew up, matured, and became the characters we love, and it made me see that Snape held a grudge to the point where he was willing to send sirius and lupin off to a fate worse then death, and became the character that many of us hate. Well, at least out of the people i know personally, he seems to have a lot of fans online.

I couldn't agree more. Snape is awfully jealous of Sirius and James. He is a grown man but you would think he is still 5 years old! I have always disliked the character and although I can try and understand his behaviour as a teenager I cannot accept it from an adult.

Hello,

Ok, well I haven't read the entire thread but I just wanted to throw this in. People say James and Sirius were kids and what they did was normal teenage behavior yeh?So if that's the case you can't condemn Draco, cause by that logic wouldn't all the things he's done be 'typical behavior'? I know we've seen that Sirius and James changed, but since we haven't seen how Draco will turn out, people can't really condemn him. I mean he hasn't done anything worse than what they did though I'm not condoneing anything he has done but it's a bit hypocritcal to say Sirius and James were normal teens but when Draco does something 'oh he's so evil'. Do u get where I'm coming from? If Draco turns out to be evil in the end then fine, but he's 15, just like James and Sirius were, doing similar things they did so you can't come up with excuses for them and then condemn Draco so doing the same things you know?

Anyway hope I explained that ok.

James and Sirius were teenagers and every teenager picks on someone. It's the norm at that age level and you can't take what they did to Snape against them. That event didn't make a path for the rest of their lives to be bad people. And I think that when Snape calling Lily a mudblood, he deserves a beating and I believe that what he said probably in year 1 (i'm guessing he called her a mudblood) to Lily or close friend of James and Sirius, started the 2 to pick on him.

Hello,

Ok, well I haven't read the entire thread but I just wanted to throw this in. People say James and Sirius were kids and what they did was normal teenage behavior yeh?So if that's the case you can't condemn Draco, cause by that logic wouldn't all the things he's done be 'typical behavior'? I know we've seen that Sirius and James changed, but since we haven't seen how Draco will turn out, people can't really condemn him. I mean he hasn't done anything worse than what they did though I'm not condoneing anything he has done but it's a bit hypocritcal to say Sirius and James were normal teens but when Draco does something 'oh he's so evil'. Do u get where I'm coming from? If Draco turns out to be evil in the end then fine, but he's 15, just like James and Sirius were, doing similar things they did so you can't come up with excuses for them and then condemn Draco so doing the same things you know?

Anyway hope I explained that ok.

PrincessAlly, nobody is saying that what James and Sirius did in the Pensieve scene was typical adolescent behavior. We just say that fifteen years old may do things they would not do again at twenty for example, when they realize that it is more important to be themselves than pretend they are cool and stop showing off.

James and Sirius were disappointing for sure but that scene will not change my opinion of them : they became very decent and courageous adults who were ready to give their lives to save others. Sirius was my favorite characters and I am still in mourning :upset:

Please JKR, don't take Remus's life for he is my only comfort now that you took my Sirius away ...

Now that Sirius and James are gone and Wormtail is very much on the other side, and Lupin is no longer in the job Snape's been begging Dumbledore for for 14 years, I'm hoping Snape will learn to act like an adult toward Lupin.

Of course I'd like that too, but I'm not holding my breath. I think we saw in POA that Snape is unwilling or unable to distinguish Lupin as a person from the monster that nearly killed him aged 16. Knowing how fiercely Snape holds grudges (and of course, the trauma of that experience), it will take a lot more than Lupin's pleasantness to make Snape appreciate the beauty in the beast.

_[Unicorn]']James and Sirius were teenagers and every teenager picks on someone. It's the norm at that age level and you can't take what they did to Snape against them. That event didn't make a path for the rest of their lives to be bad people. And I think that when Snape calling Lily a mudblood, he deserves a beating and I believe that what he said probably in year 1 (i'm guessing he called her a mudblood) to Lily or close friend of James and Sirius, started the 2 to pick on him.

I disagree with u saying he deserved it for calling Lily a mudblood. It was wrong yeh but I mean, he was being completely humiliated in front of a group of people and he felt embarassed when someone tried to help him which was another blow to his dignity/ego so I think he just lashed out which i can completely understand. And James said the reason they were mean to Snape was cause he 'exsisted', not because he called Lily a mudblood.

And to the other post, I get people are saying what they did was wrong but if it's typical teenage behavior that shudn't people say the same about Draco? I don't get where the difference is. I know we haven't seen grown-up Draco but it seems hypocritcal to say things Draco does are evil and then Sirius and James were just 'being teenagers'. None of the things either of them did were right but u can't say it's ok for one but not the other, do u get what I mean? I mean look at it like this, if Draco did what they did to Snape to say Neville, everyone would be in uproar about how awful he is, but since it's the good guys who've done something wrong people try to excuse them, you know? I'm not saying anyone has to completely hate James and Sirius now, but just admit they did something wrong and don't try to justify it by saying they were just kids.it's not so much the overall character i'm talking about, but their actions. Their actions were wrong but they grew up, Draco's just like they were yet people completely condemn him for the things they excuse James and Sirius for doing.

Well I hope that made sense.

But do you really think James attacked someone just for existing?It's just what he said to Lily-and Snape wasn't,I think,a perfect person either-it's just the Pensieve perspective that makes everything one-sided in favour of Snape.And Prongs and Padfoot,despite their idiotic behaviour at age fifteen,were NOT bad people-would James have ended up married to Lily (who clearly wasn't falling at his feet in the memory) if he was as bad as he seemed?Would Dumbledore have trusted Sirius to be a member of the Order of the Phoenix if he was a bad person?My point is,the memory in the Pensieve was an extremely one-sided view of James Potter-not least because it belonged to Snape.We don't see the James Potter who was a loyal friend to the Marauders,a member of the original Order,and-much later-a man who died trying to defend his family.The Pensieve didn't show us the Sirius Black who broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry.It didn't show us the boys who became Prongs and Padfoot solely to help out a friend.And Draco Malfoy cannot ever be compared to them-the motives for their actions are completely different.

But do you really think James attacked someone just for existing?It's just what he said to Lily-and Snape wasn't,I think,a perfect person either-it's just the Pensieve perspective that makes everything one-sided in favour of Snape.And Prongs and Padfoot,despite their idiotic behaviour at age fifteen,were NOT bad people-would James have ended up married to Lily (who clearly wasn't falling at his feet in the memory) if he was as bad as he seemed?Would Dumbledore have trusted Sirius to be a member of the Order of the Phoenix if he was a bad person?My point is,the memory in the Pensieve was an extremely one-sided view of James Potter-not least because it belonged to Snape.We don't see the James Potter who was a loyal friend to the Marauders,a member of the original Order,and-much later-a man who died trying to defend his family.The Pensieve didn't show us the Sirius Black who broke out of Azkaban to protect Harry.It didn't show us the boys who became Prongs and Padfoot solely to help out a friend.And Draco Malfoy cannot ever be compared to them-the motives for their actions are completely different.

Ok people keep saying that the pensive is the person's view of things but it's not cause how could Snape have heard the conversation between James and Sirius and the others that Harry was listening too? And if it was different to how Harry saw it wouldn't Sirius have said that that wasn't the way it happened? The pensieve shows something how it happened yet people won't accept it cause it would be accepting that they did somethinbg wrong. And Sirius and James were already attacking Snape when he called Lily a mudblood and they basically SAID they were bored. I mean if it was any different to how it happened the way Harry saw it, Sirius would've said, that's not the way it happened but he accepted that's what happened, they did do it the way we saw it. And all i'm saying with Draco is is he's 15 too, isn't he allowed to make stupid mistakes just like they did?I just think it seems bad that if Draco did something like that everyone would be up in arms but since it's 'the good guys' people try to deny it or make it out to be not as bad. I'm not saying overall they're bad people but what they did in that memory was wrong and i just think it's awful people trying to defend their actions, yes it was a mistake and they changed later but what they actually did was still very wrong.

Yes/I totaly agree it normal
especially people like James and Sirus

They're not BAD people, just jerks, thats all, oh and self-centered, and show-offy, but no, definately not bad people ;) :rolleyes:

I don't think it's fair to judge someone's adult character by the way they acted when they were 15. Most people go through stages of being completely impossible and we just happened to stumble across James and Sirius's moment.

That being said, James and Sirius didn't look like they were particularly nice people when they were 15. I'm sure they were great if you were friendly with them, but James's arrogance and Sirius's tendency to harbour grudges (which he didn't manage to rid himself of as an adult) certainly would have made them unpleasant enemies.

I wasn't particularly surprised that Snape still held a grudge against them. He probably never knew them long enough to realise that they'd evolved and changed as adults.

Ok people keep saying that the pensive is the person's view of things but it's not cause how could Snape have heard the conversation between James and Sirius and the others that Harry was listening too? And if it was different to how Harry saw it wouldn't Sirius have said that that wasn't the way it happened? The pensieve shows something how it happened yet people won't accept it cause it would be accepting that they did somethinbg wrong. And Sirius and James were already attacking Snape when he called Lily a mudblood and they basically SAID they were bored. I mean if it was any different to how it happened the way Harry saw it, Sirius would've said, that's not the way it happened but he accepted that's what happened, they did do it the way we saw it. And all i'm saying with Draco is is he's 15 too, isn't he allowed to make stupid mistakes just like they did?I just think it seems bad that if Draco did something like that everyone would be up in arms but since it's 'the good guys' people try to deny it or make it out to be not as bad. I'm not saying overall they're bad people but what they did in that memory was wrong and i just think it's awful people trying to defend their actions, yes it was a mistake and they changed later but what they actually did was still very wrong.

I agree that the Pensieve view was from Snape's memory but unbiased and I agree that nobody can condone their behavior (though saying 'they were fifteen years old' certainly explains it).

But, be fair, we don't know how long a feud between Snape and the boys had lasted before that point and we don't know who technically started it. Snape was apparantly not a particularly pleasant boy either.

Quote: I wasn't particularly surprised that Snape still held a grudge against them. He probably never knew them long enough to realise that they'd evolved and changed as adults. Quote:

I have to disagree here, bullies evolve yes, right into bigger bullies, quite a few reports from government and non goverment bodies, sampled from all over the world have, conclude that Children do not “just grow out of bullying”. As children get older, they tend to bully in different ways and in different relationships. All of the following forms of abuse can be considered as bullying because they combine power and aggression. Sexual harassment Gang attacks Dating violence Assault Marital violence Workplace harassment, rarely does a bully stop, why should he when all he gets are rewards, bullys start to date earlier and are often aggresive towards their date, they carry on bullying into their working life, and gain promotion rather than be censured for it, bullies of often violent towards their children, facts of life don't change just because a person is well written in a fictional story, James and Sirius, were bullies, to what extent we don't know, but even if Snape could hexs up a storm, they didn't have the right to humiliate him him. Sorry if I have come on a bit heavy, but being bullied scars a person, almost as much as a curse can and 25 years after it stops, it still is not easy to see others making light of what is a terrible thing, do me a favour and open your favorite search engine and search for "bully and sucide"

I will understand if you read this and think ( :censored: include you fav rude word here :censored: ) and ignore me.

Masterfroggy

soon to be updated
www.masterfroggy1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

There's a difference between bullying and schoolyard 'disagreements'. If you had an enemy in school, and you both tormented each other, neither of you can really be called a bully. Bullying is one-sided and we don't know that this was.

There's a difference between bullying and schoolyard 'disagreements'. If you had an enemy in school, and you both tormented each other, neither of you can really be called a bully. Bullying is one-sided and we don't know that this was.

Hanging some one upside down, with or without using magic, and filling their mouth with bright pink soap is not a school yard disagreement.

Even if Snape tried to defend himself, and was unsuccessful, it was one sided bullying.

soon to be updated
www.masterfroggy1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Hanging some one upside down, with or without using magic, and filling their mouth with bright pink soap is not a school yard disagreement.

Even if Snape tried to defend himself, and was unsuccessful, it was one sided bullying.

soon to be updated
www.masterfroggy1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

James and Sirius were a bit... imaginative... in their attacks. But we all know perfectly well by now that Snape is hurtful with words. We don't know what kinds of things he might have said or done before that point.

We can't say it was one-sided bullying just because only one side was being victimised at that point. You can't see a scene from one day in time and profess to know the whole story.

Oh, and I disagree that all bullies remain bullies for life, even if I don't think that James and Sirius must be called bullies. I was bullied too, I was practically chased out of one school, but I'm sure that most of the people will be perfectly ordinary people now or when they're older.

And all i'm saying with Draco is is he's 15 too, isn't he allowed to make stupid mistakes just like they did?I just think it seems bad that if Draco did something like that everyone would be up in arms but since it's 'the good guys' people try to deny it or make it out to be not as bad. I'm not saying overall they're bad people but what they did in that memory was wrong and i just think it's awful people trying to defend their actions, yes it was a mistake and they changed later but what they actually did was still very wrong.

Firstly :welcome: to the boards,PrincessAlly and Emielle!After reading what you had to say regarding the Marauders in the Pensieve,I have to point out that it was a single,isolated instance that Harry saw-he didn't get to see exactly why they hated each other so much.What Prongs and Padfoot did then was certainly wrong,but all I'm saying is:put it in perspective.And Malfoy isn't just making stupid mistakes:he's under the delusion (probably influenced by his father)that he wants to join the dark side!Malfoy,as I said earlier,is NOT anything like James or Sirius,except in the part about having a running feud with Harry the way the Marauders did with Snape.James and Sirius,despite everything,weren't bad people:Draco looks well on his way to becoming one.

Although it's true that some bullies remain bullies in adulthood, I don't think it's fair to extend this rule to Sirius and James.

I'm sure any bullying that went on between Sirius, James and Snape was mutual. Snape is still a bully in many ways, I suppose, but he has lots of unresolved issues to deal with.

We don't really know enough about James's adult character, to make any definite conclusions, but I doubt, very much, whether he continued bullying as an adult. James Potter and the Sexual Harassment Suit just doesn't sound right to me.

You know what? I think that James and Sirius were cowards at that time. At that particular time, I said, not when the joined the order. Because if James had decided to duel with Snape alone, Snape would have won fair and square. I'm convinced that he was more powerful than James at the time. So what do the Marauders do? They pick on Snape when he's least expecting it and when he's outnumbered four to one. I'm not saying I hate James(although I never liked him, that's a different story :) ) and I like Sirius and Lupin. But I think their behaviour was pretty low. Of course Snape's Mudblood comment was inexcusable, but at least it was understandable. It was probably a blow to his ego when Lily tried to help him. I got the impression that the Mudblood comment was not something he was proud of. Also, Snape may be a lot of things, but I don't think he's a pureblood maniac. That just doesn't suit him, somehow.

I think what they did to snape at the age of 15 was just cool! er maybe a little harsh, but cool. snape desereved it. but james & sirius were just so cool! all the way!

No,My Sirius,it wasn't cool,but neither were they cowards-they just disliked Snape a lot and got the better of him in the instance we saw,coming off as gits in the process,but not completely hateful either.Please don't bash Prongs and Padfoot-they are not,and never were,bad people.And I don't think Snape was very likable in school.This is NOT to say that I'm justifying what James and Sirius did-I'm just saying,don't judge them entirely by that.And Harry needed,I think,to know that his father wasn't the perfect individual he'd imagined him to be,and that the Marauders weren't gods.It just shouldn't make him hate his father forever,and I think his talk with Sirius on the day of the twins' flight to freedom helped him understand the situation somewhat.

I don't agree. I think James and Sirius WERE bad people. They were nothing more than cruel bullies, and bullies are not good people. How can you take pleasure in hurting someone you simply don't like and still call yourself a good person? They may not have been EVIL people, but they sure weren't GOOD. Good people don't derive pleasure in hurting others. Good people are not bullies. Good people don't hurt others to impress their friends. Come to think of it, Remus wasn't a very good person either. As a prefect, he should have told him to stop, but he just sat by and watched them harm Snape, which makes him just as guilty as any psycholgoical harm they caused. Lily was a good person, she told them to stop and only retaliated when Snape called her a mudblood.

I feel like pointing out that Snape is also a bully. He's made Hermione cry twice and seriously damaged Neville's chances of becoming a decent potion maker. I think that the Marauders (excepting Peter for now) and Snape are basically equal in their morals. All have done unjustifiable things, all have done noble things, and please don't forget that ALL have suffered things they didn't deserve.

I'd like to ask the people who aren't willing to give James a second chance after being a bully, why they gave Snape a second chance after being a Death Eater - a follower of the biggest bully of all?

I feel like pointing out that Snape is also a bully. He's made Hermione cry twice and seriously damaged Neville's chances of becoming a decent potion maker. I think that the Marauders (excepting Peter for now) and Snape are basically equal in their morals. All have done unjustifiable things, all have done noble things, and please don't forget that ALL have suffered things they didn't deserve.

I'd like to ask the people who aren't willing to give James a second chance after being a bully, why they gave Snape a second chance after being a Death Eater - a follower of the biggest bully of all?

Well said Puffskein :clap: At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think it is fair to judge adult James and Sirius - or even Lily - after this one incident, taken out of context after all. I am not saying what they did was right but what evidence do we have that they were always acting this way? All the people who have known James and Sirius after they matured a bit agree that they became very brave and decent men. I am curious to know what started it all ... the animosity between James and Snivellus I mean.

What we see of Snape is quite different. Ultimately, I can understand his behaviour towards Harry - don't get me wrong, I think he is acting like an immature (sp?) child - but the way he treats poor Neville, knowing what the kid went through and seeing how defenseless he is, is totally unacceptable.

Sorry, but I just don't get why everybody is ready to condemn the Marauders without a trial and excuse "poor" old Snivelly ... Well, I should go and have a cup of tea to calm down a little, shouldn't I ? :agree:

Just my impressions:

Snape's character really came together for me in GoF (and hence his relationship to Sirius), so the pensieve scene didn't surprise me at all. What surprises me is that so many people were surprised.

I don't think Sirius was all that great as an adult, and he was at least as bad as a child. He's a bit... narcisistic (he doesn't seem to get that other people are people too). You can read that as being good or bad. He treats people appaulingly badly except if he wants to play a certain role with them (ie: he treats Harry a certain way, but it's not actually about Harry, it's about how Sirius is such a good god father). On the other hand, I don't think he's doing it on purpose, or that he even understands that he does it.

Snape overcompensates for feelings of inadequacy by trying to be "evil". I think Sirius and James harassed him on a pretty regular basis, and that if he ever did come up with a comeback, it was usually pretty lame.

James seems to have had some personal growth since he was fifteen. But we don't know all that much about him as an adult.

Actually he seems to have had a tremendous amount of personal growth between ages 15 and 16 (from humiliating Snape to risking his own life to save him). What surprised people was not necessarily that Sirius was the way he was (we had previews of that in PoA) but that JAMES was once like that! Without an example of what he was like as an adult, that really has to shake your faith in him. Even with an example, all you can really say is that Lily had a TREMENDOUS positive influence on him, that striving to win her love and respect made him the best he could be.

I was never big fan of Sirius, and I didn't have enough information on James to make a sound judgement. Now we know more about them - as they were teenagers at least.

Let me start first of all by saying that I do not think James and Sirius were bad people.

Now that I've said that, you have to admit that when they were young they were conceited and rash, and these traits never appeared to have left Sirius.

Sirius can be ill-behaved, the way he reacts to Snape is interesting, he became annoyingly Whiney in OotP, and showed example of being irresponsible. But for all that - he had turned away from a family renowned for Dark Arts. Sirius befriended a Werewolf. Was against Pure-blood mania. Cared deeply for his friends and was exceptionally loyal to them. He had spent 12 years of his life locked away in Azkaban, give the guy a break!

James must have changed within the last two years of his term at Hogwarts because Lily fell in love with him and he became Head Boy. He was also a noble and loving father who tried to protect his family.

The way the boys treated Snape really was unforgivable, I have to say that. They were horrid. But there were mitigating circumstances (really, if Harry did that to Malfoy we might be less inclined to think it was terrible).

I think one of the reasons for that slice of Marauder life was to show that James and Sirius were fallible. They had made mistakes, and had obviously got through them to become good people.

I like that part. When they humiliated snape it made me like them even more.

I think what irks me more than anything is that James is the one isolated from the rest in group, as if he was the only one who was "less than perfect", never mind that canon had include Sirius as also being at the height of cool with James and also having it easy when it comes to performing magic, and that Remus didn't do much to stop either of them. I mean, if fans are going to be bring down James because of who he was when he was a kid and forego what he's accomplished when he was older, to say nothing of the basic fact he died to protect his son and wife, then fans need to be doing the same with Remus and Sirius.

BTW, well said Puffskein...:tu:

I think what irks me more than anything is that James is the one isolated from the rest in group, as if he was the only one who was "less than perfect", never mind that canon had include Sirius as also being at the height of cool with James and also having it easy when it comes to performing magic, and that Remus didn't do much to stop either of them. I mean, if fans are going to be bring down James because of who he was when he was a kid and forego what he's accomplished when he was older, to say nothing of the basic fact he died to protect his son and wife, then fans need to be doing the same with Remus and Sirius.

BTW, well said Puffskein...:tu:


I totally agree with what you said. Why should James be the only one seen in a bad light when both Lupin and Sirius were just as much part of thing. The only reason why James is taking moost of the blame is because he died. We have seen what Sirius and Lupin are like grown up but all we know of James is what was shown of him as a teen. I personaly don't think that is enough to say that James was a bad person. He was just a kid and we all make mistakes when we are young. I think the reason why some people are angry with James is because up until then James was thought to be "perfect" and thos events in OotP made him seem "less perfect". I again don't see what was so wrong with what James did. He was young and made some mistakes, everyone does it and they are forgiven. James should be forgiven for what he did , after all he made up for them when he was older. Remember he did save Snape from death when he felt that the joke had gone too far. He also was a member of the Order and died trying to save his family.

Peope have no right to say that James was a bad person without also including Lupin, Sirius and Snape. After all we don't have the full story of their hate of each other. Snape could have done much worse thing to James and his friends then we know. After all just look at the way Snape spoke to Lilly when she tried to help him.

Here's why--James is the leader and the enforcer. It doesn't look like Sirius took many direct shots at Severus with his wand. Severus would focus on the person who caused him the most pain and humiliation (James) and Harry is fixated on it because he had this idyllic picture of his father and that's been absolutely shattered. Not much can be said against Lupin in this sequence except that he let it happen. He didn't goad Severus, taunt him, or actively participate in his humiliation, he just let it happen. He's still passive, but he knows when to step in now. And on a last note, I'm amazed, totally shocked that Peter Pettigrew lived through his schooling at Hogwarts. That kid rubbed everyone the wrong way.

Why should James be the only one seen in a bad light when both Lupin and Sirius were just as much part of thing. The only reason why James is taking moost of the blame is because he died. We have seen what Sirius and Lupin are like grown up but all we know of James is what was shown of him as a teen.

While jordmundt has a valid point too, I agree with this. James is at a big disadvantage just because he can't speak for himself. Not that he could justify what he did to Snape, but if he was alive he could at least show that he improved. We are willing to look kindly on Lupin and Sirius because we have seen them do good deeds, they have explained their mistakes from their own viewpoint, and we have been able to understand how much they have suffered. Whereas James has had no chance to show us his good deeds and suffering (rather than just other people telling us about it).

As Girl said, we still don't know James very well as a character. Some people talk as if the Pensieve scene was all there was to be known about James Potter. But most HP characters are too complex to be judged solely on ten minutes' footage of their life, and there's plenty of evidence that James had other sides to his character.

I don't know about this. Lupin does an awful lot to try to paint James in a better light and takes an awful lot of the blame for the excesses James and Sirius ran. We've seen Sirius do good things and know that he is a good person in spite of his rashness and arrogance, but Lupin has done a lot to paint James in really the best light possible and has shouldered a lot of blame that really based on what we know so far doesn't look like it belongs to him. While James would or could give a good account of himself if still alive, everyone trustworthy whom Harry has met (with the exception of Severus Snape) has painted James in a rather rosy light, even McGonagall remembers him somewhat fondly despite the fact that she acknowedges that he was a "troublemaker."

I don't know about this. Lupin does an awful lot to try to paint James in a better light and takes an awful lot of the blame for the excesses James and Sirius ran. We've seen Sirius do good things and know that he is a good person in spite of his rashness and arrogance, but Lupin has done a lot to paint James in really the best light possible and has shouldered a lot of blame that really based on what we know so far doesn't look like it belongs to him. While James would or could give a good account of himself if still alive, everyone trustworthy whom Harry has met (with the exception of Severus Snape) has painted James in a rather rosy light, even McGonagall remembers him somewhat fondly despite the fact that she acknowedges that he was a "troublemaker."


The death of Lily and James hit everyone very hard, so perhaps there painted picture of James is mis-guided due to there loss. If you look at it that way, then Snapes memory is possibly the most correct and true memory of James behaviour and attitude.

Sirius did start the bullying of Snape off as well. Sirius acknowledged Snapes presence in a taunting manner and it was only after this that James joined in. Lupin stood back from it all and really did not get involved.

Which was my point. Lupin berates himself for allowing it to occur. Sirius was the mouth but James was the arm and James believed in what Sirius was saying as much as he did. Personally I'd like to get a Snape POV of the "joke" because I think it'd settle this dispute once and for all.

We know that Lilly died to protect Harry, because we know that Voldemort didn't intend to kill her. We don't know that Voldemort had a problem killing James. And I doubt very much he did. So, although James put up a fight as one does in such a situation, and sent his family in the opposite direction, as one does in such a situation, that was just the right thing to do. It wan't exactly above and beyond the call of duty. And while you should be praised for doing the right thing at no expense to yourself, you shouldn't be cannonized for it either.

And that's one action. The penseive scene is a compelation of many actions, none of which reflect particularily well on him. And that's really all the first hand info we have to go on. So the over all impression of James has tilted to be more negative than possitive.

As far as Sirius going to jail, well, that was passive on his part. It wasn't his choice. So even if there was a cosmic scale where you could balance out the wrong things you did, that wouldn't count towards it. Not to mention that he doesn't feel especially bad about anything he did to anyone (narcisism again). I dunno. The more I think about it, the less and less I like him.

I do agree with the person (I'm sorry, I can't remember who) who said that Lupin should have turned in his badge if he wasn't willing to preform his duties. I think the whole prefect system is a little tough, though, since you either end up like Percy or as a doormat for your friends. But he does have the decency to realize that he was wrong.

Do we really know that? We know that she didn't HAVE to die and that he was in such a hurry to kill Harry that he didn't want to waste energy but do we really think that if she had gotten out of the way that he would have spared her AFTER he'd killed Harry (if he could have which is another matter up for debate)? I don't think so, somehow.

I don't think you'd find a lot of mothers that would take him up on the offer. I don't know if he would have left Lilly alone. If he had have been able to push her out of the way, kill Harry, and then apparate somewhere else, he might have left her alone.

I can relate how James and Sirius were feeling when abusing Snape. In my school there is some one like Snape, stands out. I don't like to judge people by how they look but his physical description is funny and I laugh inside. It's not mean everyone laughs at someone but this was in a good way. But I decided I didn't like this kid by his attitude, he wasn't nice and decided to be in his own little world. I think that kid is like Snape. James and Sirius saw him and thought him funny but what triggered them to abuse Snape was his attitude. In OotP we saw what he said to Lily when she tried to help. Unlike James and Sirius, I didn't talk back to the mean kid, I ignored him. But I understand why the 2 marauders abused Snape after what he said, I would have to.

Angora--Really? He'd leave a Mudblood unharmed after killing the last of a pureblood line and her half-blood son? Why? That's anathema to everything he is and has ever been. IF this is true, there's something we're not being told about Lily and the Evans family in general.

I think the whole point of these books is that there is no one purely good or purely evil, that good and evil come in many textures and flavors. Everyone is flawed in one way or another, but some at least are on a journey, hopefully, of some sort of self-discovery and ultimately improvement of their character.

Angora--Really? He'd leave a Mudblood unharmed after killing the last of a pureblood line and her half-blood son? Why? That's anathema to everything he is and has ever been. IF this is true, there's something we're not being told about Lily and the Evans family in general.

This is all kind of beside the origional point that he wouldn't have left James alone in any case, but yeah, I think he might have left Lilly alone.

I tend to favor the theories that there's some particular reason he didn't want to kill Lilly specifically, but even if that wasn't the case, I don't think Voldemort kills people to be spiteful. He kills them a) to stop them being a threat and b) becuase they just don't matter to him at all (like kids that squish ants because they're bored). So, on that fateful night, Voldemort was a man on a mission. I think, having completed that mission, he might very well have just aparated back to wherever he came from and not given some mudblood crying in the corner a second thought.

I don't know about this. Lupin does an awful lot to try to paint James in a better light and takes an awful lot of the blame for the excesses James and Sirius ran.

Do you blame him, after all his friends did for him? I do think it reflects well on James and Sirius that they didn't bully Remus for being ill, and then worked for three years to help him. Of course they had fun being Animagi, but the three years' work can't all have been fun. This is the main reason that I don't want to believe some people's implication that James was a totally objectionable Draco-ish character before he deflated his head.

My 23 year old son just finished reading OotP and I asked what he thought of the pensieve scene.
his response was he wasn't the least bit surprised about the younger James and Sirius. I guess for him they had always come across as the
sport star types in school who spent their gym time shoving smaller kids into lockers because they knew they'd get away with it. The pensieve just confirmed his suspicions.
I tend to disagree that if Harry did it to Malfoy we' be more forgiving.
I don't think so. An unprovoked attack is an unprovoked attack and it
says a volumes about the attacker. (far more than it does the attackee)
Sadly behavior wise James does come off more like Draco. Who else in
the series attacks unprovoked and at times when his targets back is turned. (remember Snape was trying to leave the scene when he heard the Marauders)
Now think about it for a minute. James' bullying behavior sounded pretty entrenched. He was comfortable enough to attack Snape in broad daylight in front of witnesses. From comments made by Lily and Remus Snape was not the Marauders only target. James was well on his way to be being a bullying adult. And then something changed in James. Had to have for the characters to speak so highly of him. It can't all be just because he's dead. So maybe there's a little hope for Draco after all
And for Snape. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to write people off.

Angora--Really? But he LOVES it and he's so GOOD at it. Maybe in his old age he does it only to serve a purpose, but the Voldemort I've read about and the Tom Riddle that Harry met definitely kill for spite and pleasure. What was the purpose of killing his grandparents and father? Revenge? They were defenseless and couldn't possibly hurt him. What about Frank Bryce? One Memory Charm and there isn't even evidence that Voldemort was ever there. No. Voldemort likes killing. He thinks Muggleborns whom he calls "Mudbloods" are scum. One less doesn't change the world much. And he doesn't seem to express any remorse or regret for killing her, just a little peeved that she outmaneuvered him. If he avoided speaking of her the way Snape does, I might think there was something there, but nothing that's been said by him or about him leads me to this conclusion.

Puff--Of course I DON'T blame him. I was just pointing out that Lupin has done a lot to equalize the picture of the Marauders and to shift the blame away from James only (the one not there to defend himself).

Lorna--One of our problems imagining this scenario and our reactions to it is that we can't even THINK of a situation where whatever Harry did to Draco would be unprovoked. Harry shoved him in the mud once. Everything else has been in self-defense. This shows not only that Harry is not a mini-James, but that Draco is most assuredly NOT a mini-Severus.