Who overheard the prophecy?

I dont know whether someone else had said this already, but I just wondered who overheard the prediction sybill trewellawny made to DD, and went running to Voldemort?

Mundungus Fletcher siad that he had been chucked out of the Hogs Head 20 years ago, so it could have been him being chucked out again, as JK makes a point of saying that he had to appear in disguise in the pub when following Harry.

Any thoughts????????:??:

I forgot all about this, but I definitely was wondering when it was said. I don't think it could be Dung, he was in the order even back then and wouldn't have told Voldemort anything (as far as we know).

You've got to wonder, why would anyone get tossed out of the Hog's Head? It doesn't sound like a place too picky about its clientele.

My immediate thought was Mundungus, because Remus and Sirius enjoy round off their time periods up five years and his banishment from the Hog's Head jives (fairly well, but not perfectly) with this incident. We also know that it was a guy who overheard it. The major probelm though is that Mundungus Fletcher has been in the Order both times. And though he's always on the make (trying to smuggle stolen cauldrons through headquarters) he's never really done anything worse than try a mild hex while Arthur Weasley's back was turned. I'd have to have a lot more evidence before I'd consider him mercenary enough to sell out.

On a completely different not, did you folks all notice that Mr. Tibbles (supposedly one of Figg's photographed cats from book 1) appears to be an Animagus or a cat similar to Filch's Mrs. Norris?

Mundungus, no way!! I guess he was thrown out because he insulted the barkeeper, he seemed to be that sort of guy who get angry very fast over nothing. Probably someone from the order was there with DD and kick the Death eater who was eavesdropping out. Maybe the person from the Order was Mundungus and he was banned from the Hog Head for insulting a paying customer?? Who knows, i don't think it is to important. I think DD is extra carful in chosing members for the Order.

Dung was probably conducting illegal business on the premises and got the authorities in raiding the place. :lol:

When I first read it, I suspected Snape when he was a death eater.

Didn't the barman in the Hog's Head look "familiar" to Harry?

The barman sidled towards them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.

It seems not likely but... Could it be a DE? Could it have been him the one who overheard?

Harry wouldn't have known if it was the barman who overheard because he wasn't born. He's familier from somewhere else *cough*plotpoint*cough*.

I think that maybe it was a DE and the order was patroling cause DD was in there and they caught him.

Or whoever it was was in illegally.

Um...Didn't Trelawney take a Room upstairs? Logically, if she was going to "See" for DD, than they would so it somwhere where they wouldn't be disturbed, like in her rooms, A Quick Scilencing Charm, and no one would be able to hear anything....This to me, is the smart thing to do.

Voldie Probably found out from Rookwood about the Prophecy, we don't know what Department he worked in, and we DO know that Rookwood was passing info to him.

thats my 2 cents

Mundungus...Very interesting and too coinicidental to be ignored. I posted a similar question in another forum but I was glad when I saw this one. Surely DD would remember the person?

*hem hem* I agree Dumbleedore, important plot point, that barkeeper.

As for the evesdropper, maybe it's malfoy snr? I mean he scored at Harry why he didn't know why Voldie hated him so much.

Rookwood worked for the Dep. of Misteries! It said so in the Pensieve chapter in GoF. When Karkaroff gave names to the Ministery, he named August (?) Rookwood, then Crouch said: Rookwood? From the Dep. of Misteries?

So, the prophecy was in that department, so he could have transferred the info to the Dark Lord, but then he should have known the whole prophecy. It's a bit strange, isn't it???

*Does her little "I'm right" Dance*

thank god for that, I thought i was gonna be the only one who thought anything of it. sorry to the person who already posted, i'm new here and hadn't been through all the other forums. But I don't think it could have been Rockward, cause it wouldn't have mattered us knowing that it was him, as we already know he's evil, I think the fact that JK left it open ended is significant - what she leaves out is usually as important as what she puts in.

DD said somone overheard part of it and once they realised they were being listened too, the person was kicked out of the bar (haven't gotten there in my re-read yet). So, unless Rookwood was in the bar, it wasn't him. Also, DD and Trewalny could have been in normal conversation and then she just started spitting the prophecy out of no where.

I vote for Lucious. We don't know when Snape changed his allegiance. It could have been him, but I would bet it was before this. We don't know much about Lucious's role in Voldemorts first go round.

I thought it was a magical thing,

I was thinking that one is not allowed to diliberately over hear such information. Maybe the magic of the situation chucked out the
listen-in-er.

I also say this because in British culture it is unpolite and I mean VerY unpolite to over hear conversations that don't include you. This is when simply sitting in a cafe and the tables are close. If you do hear something you don't react to it or acknowledge that you've heard such so listening in behavior is Greatly looked down upon.

but who knows. Maybe it was Snape....

I think Wormtail,maybe that's why he betrayed the Potters!

Pettigrew is scummy enough to fit in there.

Yes, Peter Wormtail Pettigrew...good point.

Hmm...I wonder if Dumbledore knew who it was listening or found out later? Before the death of the Potters, that is.

My impression was that Dumbledore was the one who detected and then (probably magically) ejected the eavesdropper from the building. He says:

"My - our -one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building."

The use of the word "my" gives me that feeling, as opposed to him saying "The one stroke of good fortune..." But it is left rather ambiguously open to other interpretations.

Wormtail was also in the order...he had been passing on info for at least a year - if it was him, I suspect they didn't know - in which case he would be able to hear the entire thing - so i don't think wormtail fits, if DD did kick wormtail out, i.e. suspect him of being a DE then surely he would have thought to tell...anyone.

If it was Rookwood (eavesdropping that is) then they would have known he was a DE and it wouldn't have been a surprize when Karkaroff was caught. Whoever it was must have disaparated - got away before a memory charm could be used, so they valued to information - my opinion : a known/suspected DE who did not mind exposing their position...i.e not Malfoy, Avery, Rookwood, Pettigrew (or Snape for that matter) etc. could have been a Lestrange...or even Mr Regulus Black.

maybe it was rita skeeter? but, no, they never did say. i'm sure its important though.

Nah, I reckon it was someone we haven't heard of yet, or som1 we know but in a different light?? perhaps someone in the ministry? although they wouldn't get chucked out, would they?

I don't think that Pettigrew was the spy that was evicted from the Hogs Head for the simple reason Dumbledore would have no reason to keep the info from Harry. Harry already knows that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper.

If the spy were Snape however it opens a whole new can of worms. Harry was already transfering anger/blame to Snape by the time Dumbledore told him 'everything'.

Given their animosity towards each other telling Harry that Snape was the person who in effect signed his parents death warrants would have been equal to tossing a lit match in a room full of gunpowder. Maybe Snape was the person that recruited Wormtail.

How about Ludo Bagman? Perhaps that's the info he gave Rookwood which then went to Voldemort. That almost resulted ina term in Azkaban.

I can't imagine who heard part of the prophecy and was tossed out. I don't think it was Dumbledore who detected the eavesdropper, though. It would have interrupted his memory. Then I think the penseive playback would have been affected.
But ...... this guy seems vaguely familiar to me, too.

quote:
"The barman sidled towards them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry."

Harry had seen Moody's photo of the OotP and wasn't Aberforth in the picture? And he might resemble his brother enough to "remind" Harry of someone he knows. As Aberforth had been in trouble with the ministry at one time, (something about goats) perhaps bartending at the Hog's Head was the best job he could get. Or perhaps, he's a plant spying for the OotP.

I'd say it was Pettigrew, the fact that he's a 'rat' would make it all the more apt

Mundungus was thrown out 20 years ago, but the prophecy was made the year of Harry's birth, which would be a little more than 15 years ago

Hmm, that is intriguing.

Different people (most of whom are already named) that I can reason being the one who overheard

Wormtail-He's in the picture of the Order that Moody shows. So he would know that Lily/James and the Longbottoms had defied Voldemort three times. He also knows Lily is muggleborn, making Harry halfblood, something Dumbledore mentions. Only problems with this theory, Dumbledore would have known then that Wormtail was working against him, and wouldn't have made a statement making Sirius guilty for the Potter's death.

Snape-He could overhear and then be thrown out. Tells VOldemort because he's a deatheater. Then realize that the prophecy is referring to Harry, James' son. And the books say saving someone's life creates a certain bond, he is honour bound to help James, and tells Dumbledore that Voldemort knows part of the prophecy. Which is when they put the Fidelius charm on the Potters. This could also be what made Snape turn. The bond between him and James, from James saving him forbids him to let harm come to James. Just a thought.

What about the guy who overheard the DA group formation in the fifth book? (Don't have the book with me, but I think his name was Will; he was also the one blowing up toilets) He seems to be the kind of guy who deals in trading information, and he enjoys muggle baiting- as Mr. Weasley explained with the exploding toilets so he might be on the side of Lord Voldemort if he has those anti-muggle tendancies...

Could it have been Crabbe or Goyle Sr? Remember in GoF when Voldemort was talking to the DEs, and he said, "And here we have Crabbe...you will do better this time, will you not, Crabbe? And you, Goyle?" Or Mr. Nott. A few sentences later Voldemort says, "The same goes for you, Nott."

Nott seems the most apologetic of those three, but they obviously did something wrong. Messed up a plan, or didn't do something right. Maybe Nott was supposed to be eavesdropping on Dumbledore, and Crabbe and Goyle were supposed to be making sure he wasn't detected? I don't know, but they may have someting to do with it.

Oh, I think it was Snape. The reasons seem very good. For one thing, Snape is a spy for Dumbledore, so I always thought he had been a spy for Voldemort. I also thought he was the one to tell Dumbledore Voldemort was after the Potter's since he is the only spy we know of. As some people have said, it doesn't make sense for it to be a minor death eater, because then we could know his name. Snape is the one that Dumbledore always avoids discussing.

I thought it was Peter as well, but then why didn't he just transform into a rat or something? Then he could have heard the whole thing! No, I think it was someone we wouldn't expect at all...maybe someone even new!

I think it must of been Mundugus...but the book said I thought. I read the last parts of it a couple times because i had a hard time understanding Dumbledore's expllinatation. I do vaguely remebering that Dumbledore knew who did it...It must of been Wormtail.

I thought so at first, but if Dung sold this info to Voldemort, Dumbledore and Lupin would have strung him up by now, not let him back in the Order. No, it has to be a spy for Voldemort. Hmm.

Well if the theory of the bartender being Aberforth Dumbledore (that would be Dumbledore's brother) then we know who chucked out the listen-in-er. And we can then very well think that Aberforth told Dumbledore who was doing the accidental-on-purpose overhearing. :)

I missed the Aberforth theory - that makes sense, especially as he was supposed to be a bit shady. But that still doesnt' cover WHO overheard. :banghead:

What gets me is HOW the information got to Lord V if the listener was caught before he could get too far. I know Lord V is accomplished at Legilimency, but the book said that almost everybody needs to look into someone elses eyes to get the information they need.

This occured to me and it will be refuted b/c I dont have the book here and its one of those things in my head that just could happen. Snape is such a jerk to Harry that maybe he doesn't really believe that Harry is the one that can stop Voldemort. He makes it clear that he doesn't think much of Harrys abilities. What if he was the one who reported the prophecy to Voldemort, but it was on DD's orders. There is a reason he knows occlumency, and it probably had to do with keeping voldemort from knowing he was working for Dumbledore. Maybe the prophecy was meant to lure Voldemort into the trap he was pulled into fifteen years ago, and maybe it is true, but not completely true. There are points in my own head that could refute this, like DD not risking the lives of the potters for a trap. But I just think the prophecy would make the rest of the series a little too clear if it just stood as it is. I think DD wanted Voldemort to know about the prophecy fifteen years earlier. It was almost as if lily and DD and james set up the whole trape to lure voldemort and have him destroy himself.

I don't think it was Peter because DD would have told the Potters and they would get change back to Sirius and get a new place to hide... either that or they wouldn't have thrown him out considering he was thought to be a good guy... or he would be in hiding.

Rookwood sounds good to me, because he seems to be the type of guy who does the dirty work - breaking into places and such.

Originally posted by kfingers (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=444799#post444799))
This occured to me and it will be refuted b/c I dont have the book here and its one of those things in my head that just could happen. Snape is such a jerk to Harry that maybe he doesn't really believe that Harry is the one that can stop Voldemort. He makes it clear that he doesn't think much of Harrys abilities. What if he was the one who reported the prophecy to Voldemort, but it was on DD's orders. There is a reason he knows occlumency, and it probably had to do with keeping voldemort from knowing he was working for Dumbledore. Maybe the prophecy was meant to lure Voldemort into the trap he was pulled into fifteen years ago, and maybe it is true, but not completely true. There are points in my own head that could refute this, like DD not risking the lives of the potters for a trap. But I just think the prophecy would make the rest of the series a little too clear if it just stood as it is. I think DD wanted Voldemort to know about the prophecy fifteen years earlier. It was almost as if lily and DD and james set up the whole trape to lure voldemort and have him destroy himself.


Interesting theory, but it doesn't seem to fit with Dumbledore's character, putting James and Lily in mortal danger [or, worse, sacrificing them] to set a trap for Voldemort... That is, unless Dumbledore has truly been the bad guy all along in disguise, but I don't think JK would do something that extreme, as it would seem to destroy the world she has so carefully crafted... [after all, throwing such an extreme and immediate change on the reader would lead us to ask why we should care about any of the characters when we can't seem to have any trust or faith in how they are portrayed in the stories... in other words, if major changes could occur that quickly, that would suggest that we can't really put any faith in the stability or reliability of any aspect of Harry's world...]

I agree, and that's why I refuted it in my own post. It seems to be a piece of a puzzle that is the perfect fit but the wrong color. The whole harry potter prophecy and voldemort coming after him and lily being ready with the protection all fits into a really tight package for me. When Dumbledore said he was going to tell Harry everything, he sure left a hell of a lot of holes.

yeah i agree, wormtail is a very good suggestion. we know this is before harry was born right? wormtail was already with voldy secretly so yeah this can work. he told voldy about it thinking he'd get some kind of reward and then voldy went after harry!

My guess is that Fletcher was kicked out of Hog's head for blowing up the place or setting some sort of joke off in there... and he's been in the order.... there are a lot of people who could have overheard it...

Whoever it is, I'm sure it'll come up in the future books, as will the barman of The Hog's Head. When I first read the description of the barman, it kind of reminded me of Alastor Moody.

I have a strong feeling that it's Regulus Black. We know that he was killed "some 15 years previously", and that coincides with the year that Harry was born and the Prophecy made. Maybe this was the reason he was killed.

i bet it was wormtail...sort of thing he'd do, the creep....

i had a theory that snape was the one that overheard the prophecy...

hehe hello again.
ok, well...if snape overheard the prophecy, that must have been when he was still a voldie supporter, right? well DD said that snape came back for us and turned spy for us before voldie fell, so that would give him how much time to change his ways? Can't be more than a few weeks, months, tops. And then, of course, why would he be thrown from the bar...
of course, i can see your side because of the whole james/snape grudge...

actually, volde kills harry when his is one i thought?

i don't remember...
i'm gonna go to bed lol, maybe my intelligence will return in the morning...
night night

lol. later

As I've suggested before, if it was Wormtail DD wouldn't have let the Potters use him as their secret keeper. Whoever it was revealed themselves to be a DE right there and then, someone who may not have been known to be previously or not - the fact is they knew that person was a DE, so they wouldn't trust them to protect a secret.

Theres nothing to disprove it was Snape as there is for Wormtail, but i doubt Snape or for that matter Malfoy would be in the hogs head - I doubt it's their style - sounds more like a low-life drifter -we don't know much about Crabbe,Goyle or Nott Seniors so we can't exclude them. Rookwood wasn't known to be a death eater until Karkaroff told Crouch well after Voldy had dissapeared, for this reason i'm guessing they wouldn't have minded if it was him, to allow him to keep his memory. The Lestranges are also cadidates, as are Avery, Kararoff and Crouch Jr. -and any other DEs you can think of.

There's Macnair, and don't forget Jugson. Of course, it could have been a lower-level DE that we hadn't heard about yet. Here's a thought- what if it was Sirius' brother? He would have been murdered right around the time Harry was being born. Maybe it was his last act of service to V before he tried to back out.

Yeah, who is Jugson. We've never even heard that name before. Not one of the ones addressed by Voldemort in GoF and not one of the ones in the breakout. Who IS that?

Probably not Crabbe or Goyle (I don't care how strong Aberforth--or whoever is the bartender--is, he's not going to physically "throw" either Crabbe or Goyle from his establishment). I don't think it would be Avery, he's an uppercrust weakling who probably wouldn't have the guts to be in the same room with Dumbledore. I guess it depends when those other murders happened. Dolohov could have been it, but I doubt either he or Macnair could be "thrown" from the establishment either. This makes me think it might have been old, stooped, Nott. And you're right, it definitely wasn't Rockwood or Wormtail, their covers were secure.

I WANT to noe who the baretender Guy is!! It has been bugging me so much!

nott holds up...or maybe it was somebody we have yet to be introduced to?

I don't think it would be Wormtail, because Voldemort would probably not allow him to blow his 'cover', as he was the mole in the original Order. Likewise I'm unconvinced it's Snape, either, as he turned to Dumbledore before Voldemort's downfall, and besides, can you imagine Dumbledore allowing Snape into the fold if he told Voldemort about the prophecy? Regulus Black is a possibility, as are Crabbe, Goyle and Nott Sr's. But something tells me that Voldemort wouldn't choose someone low in the ranks to follow Albus Dumbledore, and likewise, he wouldn't choose someone high in the ranks, otherwise they probably wouldn't have allowed themselves to get thrown out. They would have used a more covert way of eavesdropping, as the method they were using was obviously not working.

I'm also unconvinced it's Mundungus Fletcher, either. Dumbledore probably knows who the eavesdropper was, and in that case, he definitely wouldn't trust Dung again. Besides, he got himself a life-long ban from the Hog's Head in the first place. If he could convince the barman that he was a witch when Harry and the gang went in there, he could have used a similar disguise and not get himself thrown out and hear the whole prophecy.

So, going by all of this, it's not Wormtail, Snape or Mundungus. It's *possible* it could be Crabbe, Goyle or Nott Sr, or Regulus Black. Lucius Malfoy is another possibility, but I don't see him allowing himself to get seen eavesdropping. It could also be someone we havent met yet. I don't think Rookwood would have been used as he was far too valuable where he was spying in the Department of Mysteries.

BTW, kizz32, Dumbledore didn't know Wormtail was going to be used as the Potters' Secret Keeper. As far as he knew, it was Sirius, he even gave evidence about it at the MoM.

Good thread, good question. I have wondered who overheard half of the prophecy and was discovered since the first time I read that part of the book. I agree with so many postings. Not Wormtail. Not Mundungus.

As the good guys (original order of the Phoenix) were outnumbered 20 to 1, there are a whole lot of unmentioned deatheaters floating around out there who would fit the bill. We certainly do not have all of their names. So my guess would be a character who will be named later.

Cool thread;) First of all, the person that overheard really screwed up as his incomplete information has given Voldermort a headache of problems. I assume that Voldermort still doesnt know that only Harry can kill him and so will consistently be on guard from Dumbledore and the Order. I believe Dumbledore also said that because The Dark Lord had unfinished info. he made the mistake of trying to destroy Harry who had powers that the Dark Lord had not. Regardless of what these powers are, Dumbledore crumbled, but surely would have been more cautious if he had the entire prophecy. Thats why I think that Mr. Crabbe,Goyle or Nott might be the failed spy.They will also probably be images of their idiot sons too. However I dont think Voldermort might be to forgiving to people that might have partially been at fault for his downfall. The Snape idea at first, sounded faulty. Snape definately didnt get kicked out for listening, Im almost positive about that or Dumbledore would have dealt with him already. There was however an interesting theory by someone that the reason that Snape new Occlumency was to pretend to be a spy for Voldermort while really being one for the Order. However that raises the question, would Voldermort allow one of his allainces or Death Eaters to use Occlumency to prevent him knowing their thoughts? I dont think so, as this would show a sign of mis-trust and disloyalty. And since Snape is a master of Occlumency, does that mean that he stops Dumbledore from doing it too? Which means that not even Albus is too sure about Severus???
Anyway didnt want to drift from the topic too much, but another great theory was that of Aurora who stated that it could be Regulus Black who was killed 15 years ago. Id go with that as I think the incomplete info lead to Voldie's fall and thus the spy being killed. Anyway later and good luck on your theories:)

ok this is going to sound truly crazy. but there is always the possibility. ok here goes in hogs head when da was first getting started harry thought there was womething familiar about the bartender . i think it could have been aberforth dumbledore. harry also thought the place smelled like goats and aberforth was accused of useing illegal charms on a goat. and harry had seen aberforth in the picture moody showed him. so if it was aberforth mabey he was the one who went and told voldemort. mabey voldemort could even use aberforth to get rid of dumbledore and harry would be the only one living who could deafeat voldemort,its just a theory but pretty crazy hu?

Originally posted by the answer (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=455197#post455197))
ok this is going to sound truly crazy. but there is always the possibility. ok here goes in hogs head when da was first getting started harry thought there was womething familiar about the bartender . i think it could have been aberforth dumbledore. harry also thought the place smelled like goats and aberforth was accused of useing illegal charms on a goat. and harry had seen aberforth in the picture moody showed him. so if it was aberforth mabey he was the one who went and told voldemort. mabey voldemort could even use aberforth to get rid of dumbledore and harry would be the only one living who could deafeat voldemort,its just a theory but pretty crazy hu?


That's kinda another thread... (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11650)

Here's a wild theory (not mine, borrowed from the HP Sleuths and pieced in here) - remember Scabbers' finest hour in Book 1, biting Goyle? Well, seeing as Wormtail is only interested in himself and didn't do out of good will for Ron, it was theorised it was vengence against Goyle Snr. for a screw up - what would Wormtail be angry about? - Voldy going down and more importantly to Wormtail: spending years as a rat maybe? - because Goyle Snr. screwed up on hearing the prophecy?

If Dumbledore pulled Mad-Eye from his trunk in GoF...I'm betting he (with a little help or magic) could throw Goyle Snr. out, even if he is twice the size of a silverback gorilla.

Scabbers/vengence theory: HP Sleuth>Ellen (http://www.wizardingworld.com/hpsleuth/book5clues.html#goyle)

kizz32 I thik that Im going to start calling u Hermione:clappy:

Originally posted by Wakkachuta (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=454936#post454936))
BTW, kizz32, Dumbledore didn't know Wormtail was going to be used as the Potters' Secret Keeper. As far as he knew, it was Sirius, he even gave evidence about it at the MoM.


Sorry, I should have made it clearer - I didn't want to repeat my first post on page 1 of this thread - DD would have had Wormtail kicked out the order and told everyone about it I would have thought, as whoever it was effectively made their colours known if it wasn't already apparent.

Thanx vivek :D...I think :??:

Yeh, I agree with kizz32, if it had been wormtail every1 would have realised what an evil he was. I think it was probably regulus Black, that would create a good plot twist - well more of a gentle curve than a twist, but still - and also, I dont think that we'll get to know any more characters from now on, because there are already so many - it would get too messy. BUT who knows, maybe there'll be a BIG rollacosta-type twisty-roundabout and it'll be someone we think is good. What do you (pl) think? :shrug: :huh:

Well the prophecy was made before Harry's birth. It would stand to reason that the prophecy was overheard by a Voldemort follower. The first battle of the Order was from a few months to two years away at the time of the prophecy.

The first part, "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies", is rather cryptic and could be anyone born in the 7th month regardless of the year.

This may explain why so many were tortured, either seeking information or those witches who became pregnant that would deliver during that time.

I was re-reading PoA lastnight when I read this quote and it didnt mean anything to me until I read OotP.

Page 270 UK edition. Sirius talking to Peter.

Sirius: Voldemort went to the potters' on your information...and voldemort met his downfall there

so we know someone heard the prophecy, or part of it, and went to voldie who by that information went to the potters'...

and this quote of sirius saying "voldemort went to the potters' on YOUR information...

my guess is Wormtail heard the prophecy and went and told Voldemort. Voldemort went to the potters' and met his downfall and wormtail spends 12 years as a rat because he knows all the DE would be after him now.

^Wormtail was the only one who could tell Voldemort where the Potters were. Sirius does make a point of suggesting the only reason Voldy found the Potters was because of Wormtail - I always thought that this was because Wormtail provided the information on their location (as only he could - this was the reason Sirius tracked Wormtail down), not information on the prediction (or both as the situation would have required). Although you have a very valid point there Summergirl

im probably making no sense but....

sirius also states to wormtail that he has been passing information to him a year before the potters died and that he was his spy.

the prophecy was made before Harry was born and voldemort killed L & J when Harry was one, so a year. what if wormtail heard part of the prophecy and then told voldemort so therefore...Wormtail was spying and keeping track of the potters for a year when Harry was born...

I dont think I am making no sence..lol. Im probably wrong.

Summergurl

Makes sense to me and seems to fit the timeline.

it fits the timeline but i still dont think its wormtail... its more likely that someone else overheard it, told big v, and he told wormtail to spy.

summergirl, it definetly fits--but then why would he have been banned from Hog's Head and thrown out? DD said it attracted a more 'interesting clientele' than the 3 broomsticks, right? what makes wormtail so interesting then?

What makes it interesting is that Sirius made Wormtail the Potter's secert keeper allowing their whereabouts to become known to Voldemort.

Originally posted by Veneficus (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=457200#post457200))
What makes it interesting is that Sirius made Wormtail the Potter's secert keeper allowing their whereabouts to become known to Voldemort.


why is that so interesting?

One would assume that the Potters' would've never been found were it not for the secert keeper breaking the spell. Also it seems DE's were all over the place, at various times, not only killing whole families, but searching for the prophetic child that could risk Voldemort's power and control.

Originally posted by Summergurl (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=457078#post457078))
I dont think I am making no sence..lol. Im probably wrong.


Nobody can be proved wrong yet, not until the books come out, and if anyone is, let's never mention it again.


Originally Posted by FredRocksMySocks
what makes wormtail so interesting then?

Fair point - what makes anyone so interesting?...unless it wasn't human: a vampire maybe (let's all accuse Snape! - but he might only be half vampire EDIT:this has been discussed to death elsewhere - I don't want to drag everyone too far OT), werewolf? centaur? (they stay out of these things, but with the imperius curse - who knows). I can't work out why Dumbledore said that, unless Goyle is really twice the size of silverback gorilla...

Ok. I'll say it as many times as I have to. Percy Weasley gave the definition of a vampire in book 4. "As if it wasn't specifically stated in paragraph twelve for the Treatment of Non-wizard Part Humans..." That sentence means that ALL vampires are only half-vampire, not just one or two. And there's little to no evidence to prove that he is a vampire in the first place. He's been seen in sunlight, he can and does use magic (which contradicts the definition of a vampire, as it makes him human), and I doubt Voldemort would let a dark creature like a vampire be as highly placed in his ranks as Snape seemed to be. But I'm off topic. As Wormtail was the only one who could divulge the location of the Potters to anyone, it seems that this is the information he gave to Lord V. From what I gathered from the reactions of the Marauders, this was the only bit of valuable info he was able to pass on to V. Why else would V constantly have called Wormtail worthless throughout book 4?

true...maybe his big thing was when he told vodie where the potters' were but he was still spying on them for a whole year previously.

I know, but V would have been half delighted, and half furious that he got some of the prophecy- but not all of it. I wonder how he knew it was coming?

ok McKinnon02 - my Snape half-vampire thing was a humorous side-note - the humor part was that I knew I would have someone come after me - I haven't encounted any members of the S.S.A.S yet, and you're very right by the way, although we don't know what part vampires may play yet. But that fact remains about Dumbledores "interesting" comment - what would Dumbledore find interesting?

I think the reason Voldy calls Wormtail worthless is perhaps the secret-keeper thing was all he was ever good for, Wormtails spying amounted to nothing or the Potters would have been killed before.

kizz32, I had a suspicion that Snape was half-vampire as well! But I only thought of that because Umbridge was being "a right old hag" to him during the inspection, which led to my belief that he might have been a half-breed of some sort.

Anyway, back to the topic: the Wormtail theory is alright, but the Goyle Snr one (to me at least) ... seemed a bit "out there", but we can't rule it out. :sorry: What interests me is why Regulus Black's death date was mentioned, and why Sirius pointed out what he had done. I may also point out that Snape has been teaching at Hogwarts for... sixteen years, was it???

Originally posted by McKinnon02 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=457309#post457309))
Ok. I'll say it as many times as I have to. Percy Weasley gave the definition of a vampire in book 4. "As if it wasn't specifically stated in paragraph twelve for the Treatment of Non-wizard Part Humans..." That sentence means that ALL vampires are only half-vampire, not just one or two. And there's little to no evidence to prove that he is a vampire in the first place. He's been seen in sunlight, he can and does use magic (which contradicts the definition of a vampire, as it makes him human), and I doubt Voldemort would let a dark creature like a vampire be as highly placed in his ranks as Snape seemed to be.

You are refering to, I presume, only the definition of vampire set up by the original Brahm Stoker novel Dracula, and the subsequent Hollywood definition... I spent an entire semester this year at college being forced to read vampire lore and legend and stoker was one of the first to include the sunlight factor, and recent books (mostly young adult literature) has returned to defineing vampires more broadly, including some that go out in daylight, eat food, and do magic... also, if you read Fantastic Beasts and where to find them, it mentions that vampires are classified as beings, which gives them the potential, if one were to produce a child with a wizard, to produce a magical child, much like what we see with Hagrid (giants being non-wizards, his dad being a wizard)...

Just thought I'd add fuel to the fire ;) even though personally, I feel it would be too cliche for Snape to be a vampire and would be a lil disapointed.

I think, getting back on topic now, that the wormtail theory would work, except that dumbledore seemed to indicate that he had known all along who told Voldie about the prophecy, and he didn't know about the secret keeper switch until PoA. So he assumed that Wormtail died an innocent man and trying to take out Sirius until then, and wouldn't have suspected him of being the one who overheard the conversation. Since Dumbledore does know those details, maybe it was Snape who could have told him about it after the fact- maybe Voldie's plot to kill a baby drove him back to the side of good... who knows? I think I'm veering off topic again though, so I'll leave it there

Prosperine- I was referring to the definition that Percy gave in book 4. As for the sunlight factor, well, I just can't see a creature like a vampire surviving long in sunlight. :) And I like the idea that Regulus Black overheard the prophecy, it would explain why his date of death and how he died were mentioned. I'm sure there are other dates of death on the Family tree as well.

I have a strange feeling Snape's the one who overheard the prediction...
We have seen every professor at Hogsmead. Has Snape ever been mention attending Hogsmead?

I dont think snpe does go to Hodsmead or at least when the students goo.. In POA Snape was at the school cause draco ran and told on Harry when he was seen.... Remember... I do lol!

I still think that it will be somone significant, otherwise we would already have been told who it was, to make it more than a throw away detail it needs to either come as a shock revalation or a new character.

Although, it could have been Snape, and DD didn't want to tell Harry because he didn't want to give him another reason to hate him? After all, if Harry knew that Snape was the direct cause of all his problems, including his status as an orphan, Harry would NEVER trust or work with Snape again, causing even more problems for the order. My head hurts :??:

I think Snape could have overheard...after all, it would make a perfect excuse to go back to DUmbledore and how Dumbledore would forgive him (maybe)

Didn't it say somewhere that Snape had switched sides a year before the Potters died? Even if not, I really don't think it could be him.

I don't think it was wormtail and I don't think that it was Snape. I honestly don't think that we know who it was that overheard the prophesy. I think that it was probably a shadey character of some sort (obviously) who wasn't really evil but who knew that he could benefit the most from thelling Voldemort about the prophesy. I think that he was out for personal gain, as it seems that that is the kind of person who hangs out in the hogs head.

fpr sum reason I think its Dumbledore's brother. I mean,it does say that he looked " vaguely familiar" to Harry. And DD does say

" My- our- one stroke of good fortune" ...


The "my" being my guess was going to be " my brother". They never domention where Aberforth's loyalties lie, nor weather he was in the order or not, did they?

How about Ludo Bagman? Perhaps that's the info he gave Rookwood which then went to Voldemort. That almost resulted ina term in Azkaban.
I was thinking the same thing. But why would Bagman have been kicked out of the Hogshead? Gambling problems?
That would be how Dumbledore would have known about it.

fpr sum reason I think its Dumbledore's brother. I mean,it does say that he looked " vaguely familiar" to Harry. And DD does say

" My- our- one stroke of good fortune" ...


The "my" being my guess was going to be " my brother". They never domention where Aberforth's loyalties lie, nor weather he was in the order or not, did they?

I think that this "my- our" - thing has another reason. Just imagine, what would have happened if LV had known the whole prophecy. He would have known that nobody else than "the one" (sorry for this expression :) )
can kill him.
Thats the stroke of fortune for DD. Because he would no longer have been "the only one he ever feared"

Lord Voldemort would not think like that Foxman since the prophecy said that either of them can kill each other. It may either be Lord Vodemort who would kill Harry or it would be Harry to kill Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort would not go easy on it. Especially if he heard the part where it says there is a power that the boy ha and the dark lord doen't. So maybe he would still bring in more death eaters and then again investigate what the power is.

My money's on Snape, plain and simple.

fpr sum reason I think its Dumbledore's brother. I mean,it does say that he looked " vaguely familiar" to Harry. And DD does say

" My- our- one stroke of good fortune" ...


The "my" being my guess was going to be " my brother". They never domention where Aberforth's loyalties lie, nor weather he was in the order or not, did they?

Aberforth was in the picture of Order members that Moody showed to Harry. I think it's a lot more likely he is the bartender at the Hog's Head and the person doing the throwing out than the person being thrown out.

I think it was Regulus who overheard the prophesy.

I doubt that it was Mundungus. He is bad but he has good in him and more arrows point to good. He wouldn't betray Sirius and especially DD, hwo helped him in a tight spot it said. I think that it was probably Wormtail. Because i think that the first OotP didn't know Wormtail betrayed them until Harry's parents were killed by Voldemort. So i think that it was Wormtail and when he heard the prophecy he told Voldemort right away to get his gratitude for being honorable to him and he betrayed the Order.

But was Wormtail a traitor for a whole year and no one realized it?

Snape
Pettigrew
Mundungus
Regulus
Goyle

Out of the four, I think Goyle is most likely, though I do not agree with it.

Snape - I cant explain it, but I just disagree.

Pettigrew - Quite possible, but then they would have known he was the spy. Whoever was listening, it is likely Dumbledore/the bartender knew that they were a DE. But ther ear ea lot of clues in the 3rd book that seem to point towards him.

Mundugus - he was thrown out 20 years ago, not 16. If he had been thrown out a second time, why would he want to hear the prophecy, and why would he tell Voldemort? He is a crook, but as Sirius once said, the world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters.

Regulus - Its possible, but it seems he wasnt really a very important DE to me. He would be too scared to go on some spying mission.

Goyle Sr. - I disagree, but its possible. He seems a bit too stupid to do anything...

We definatly know he is a man. And it is likely he was using the invisibility cloak (though not certain)

I think it was Ludo Bagman. We know he was a professional quidditch player, and he was later accused of passing on information unintentionally to Rookwood. Now if you think about it, what would a slightly stupid Qiudditch player know that would be of any use to Voldemort? I can only assume that Bagman was in the Hog's Head that day and overheard Dumbledore and Trelawney. He could have been thrown out due to his gambling problems, just for eavesdropping on somebody else's conversation, or maybe the barman didn't like the Wimbourne Wasps :)

Also, Rita Skeeter tells us that she knows things about Ludo that would 'make your hair curl'. For me, his gambling problems isn't what she was talking about. But if it was indirectly his fault that Voldemort attacked the Potters, leaving Harry with 10 years of misery in the Dursley's then it is slightly more 'hair curling'.

Just a side note, what about Bertha Jorkins? She is a known gossip and could have just listened in due to general nosiness. Dumbledore never actually says that they're a man, Harry does. Also, if the person listening in was a known Death-Eater or somebody Dumbledore didn't trust, then he would surely have taken measures to protect the information with some sort of memory charm so it had to be somebody who Dumbledore thought was harmless. Ludo and Bertha fit into this.

I don't think it can possibly be Ludo. If it had been Ludo you can be sure that Dumbledore would have made a strong case to override the Quidditch euphoria in the court and make certain he got a hefty sentence. It could have been Rockwood, possibly tipped off by an unknowing Bagman but other than that, forget it.

Snape is already a counterspy, so I can't see him being "thrown from the building" simply given instructions to repeat half of what he heard an no more.

Wormtail was a spy for almost exactly a YEAR before that fateful Halloween, so he hadn't flipped yet when the Prophecy occurred, so he's out. Regulus was already dead, so unless it was his ghost, forget about it. Goyle? I don't think he's intelligent enough to string a coherent sentence together, much less half of that convoluted prophecy. Same goes for Crabbe. Either it's someone we haven't met yet, or it was Bella, or more likely Bella's clumsy husband Rodolphous. I can see him hiding under a hood and getting thrown from the building. I can't see Albus or Aberforth or whoever throwing Goyle anywhere physically. Mundungus might have been playing both sides and he could have been thrown out for show. Now THAT would be interesting.

I don't think it can possibly be Ludo. If it had been Ludo you can be sure that Dumbledore would have made a strong case to override the Quidditch euphoria in the court and make certain he got a hefty sentence. It could have been Rockwood, possibly tipped off by an unknowing Bagman but other than that, forget it.


that's what I was getting at. Bagman heard the prophesy, Rookwood asked him about it, and Bagman told him thinking that Rookwood was asking him on behalf of the Ministry. It makes sense that Bagman would believe Rookwood as he works for the Department of Mystery and would have the authority to go and ask Bagman about it without looking suspicious.

Well, someone who works for Voldy nearly succeeded in getting useful information, but messed up and sent LV something that would cause him to make a serious mistake.

I'd expect it to have been his most incompetent sidekick, Avery. It was Avery and Wormtail who LV singled out for punishment in book 4, maybe it was for the same thing: sending him to Godric's Hollow. Avery must have been wildly apologising for something out of the ordinary that had gone unpunished. I can't think of anything else it could have been.

Somethin' to think about...

What I meant was, Bagman heard about his nutty old friend Sybil who wanted the Divination job and told Rockwood that Dumbledore was meeting her at the Hog's Head. Rockwood, as an Unspeakable, knowing a bit more about Divination than your average DE and he knows Sybill's lineage as well as Dumbledore does. He figures, it might not be important, but what the hey, it's at least a way to keep an eye on Dumbledore inconspicuously. He shows up at the Hog's Head under a hood and is just as shocked as Dumbledore when the prophecy begins. He either drops his drink or adjusts his hood and Dumbledore or the barkeep sense him and expel him physically and forcibly from the establishment exactly halfway through the prophecy.

Ok we are missing the one person that could have been there and is very close to Voldermort. What about Lucius. He would do it, he was recognised as a DE but then again we have not been told who recognised him and how he was recognised. Perhaps not by face but only by the exposed marking on his arm. It did day that he was hooded so his face might have been covered. Lucius would do it, he would definety go and tell Voldermort as he sucks upto the big all mighty one. You see it took them a while before they realised a DE was in the pud why. What if Lucius walked in with his hood down, I mean nobody new he was as DE hence the job in the ministry afterwards. Lucius buys a drink and sits down at one of the tables. When he hears the prophecy and realises the severity, he reaches upwards and covers his face with his hood, as he does he reveals the scare on his arm. Now no one may have realised that it was Lucius under that hood at all as they where too busy watching the prophecy being told to remember that it had been Lucius sitting there. It might have been the revealing of the scare that gave the DE away. Why only kick out the DE, why not contain him and put him away. Unless the one throwing out the DE was being paid a back hander to make sure his identy was not revealed. Who do we know, who pays back handers to people to get what he wants, Lucius.

Can you imagine Lucius going ANYWHERE incognito? He sticks out like a sore thumb and has only been able to stay off the Ministry's radar thus far by bestowing liberal amounts of cash and personal manipulation upon those in power. He'd stick out like a sore thumb and he wouldn't have heard word 1. What about someone like Rita going in as a beetle and selling her info to the higherst bidder, Voldemort?--Nah, that's also very implausible.

Can you imagine Lucius going ANYWHERE incognito? He sticks out like a sore thumb and has only been able to stay off the Ministry's radar thus far by bestowing liberal amounts of cash and personal manipulation upon those in power. He'd stick out like a sore thumb and he wouldn't have heard word 1. What about someone like Rita going in as a beetle and selling her info to the higherst bidder, Voldemort?--Nah, that's also very implausible.

Well yes Lucius would stick out like a sore thumb now but what was his status 16 years ago. Would he have stuck out like a sore thumb back then?

Yes, he was prominent before and his money is very old vintage. That was how he was able to worm his way out of trouble after Voldemort's official defeat. The only thing that might have increased with time is his arrogance. If he's in his late forties now, he wouldn't look quite as young as Bagman so he'd just be pretty much set with his looks.

I think it was Mundungus Fletcher. Dumbledore had spies everywhere and so did Voldy. He was in disguise when he was at the Hog's Head dressed like a witch when Harry and his friends came in, and he told Sirius the reason why he was always in disguise was because the "barman" had a long memory and he had did something wrong inth ebar a long time ago. If the barman is Dumbledore's brother I can see him tossing Fletcher out on his heinie easdropping on something of that nature, and banning him from the bar later after Lily and James were killed.

You think Dung was a freelancer who sold everything to the highest bidder and was so dishonest that Voldemort couldn't see through him? If that's the case, why would Dumbledore EVER let Dung back into the Order? On a side note, Dung was a lot younger than I expected, I expected some ornery old fart about ready to fall apart who just liked to pull fast ones with the Ministry (maybe a male disreputable contemporary of Griselda Marchbanks). I was surprised at how young he was. And how much like a favorite conning uncle. I can't imagine that his hex was anything serious, Arthur had just had a long night that night. Wasn't it 9 raids?:D

I agree that Mundungus was the eavsdropper. :agree: It fits, and he's the only one that has some evidence toward him.

I still don't see how Mundungus got back in the Order if he tried to serve Voldemort, even for a fee.

Goyle snr is a possibility after the actions of Scabbers, but my guess is that it is either nobody important, or Snape. The time is a fair while, maybe a year and a half or two years before Godric's Hollow. My guess is that Snape was the spy, heard the first part of the prophecy and told Voldemort. When Harry is born, Snape realises what Voldemort will try to do, and how his own information has endangered James (this matters, based on the whole James-Snape life debt thing). This is what causes Snape to turn back to Dumbledore.

I don't see Snape getting thrown out of the building, just warned strongly to only tell half of what he knows. As far as Goyle, I maintain that that oaf can't string a coherent sentence of more than five words together so how in the WORLD is he supposed to relay half of the prophecy?:rolleyes:

There were lots of people who worked both sides to the middle back in those days. As Hagrid said, "Dumbledore trusts where most people would not."

the timing of the Phopecy menas a lot. i was under the impression that when voldermort heard the first part, he immediately found out what children were born in July and started hunting. someone else told Dumbledore who suggested that they all go into hiding. A week after the charm was performed, James and Lily were dead. So my guess is that the whole shebang, from Phophecy to Death took about 2 weeks, roughly.

NO! It took almost a year and a half. Harry celebrated his first birthday with both parents and spent his second Halloween night destroying his house.

Ok. So the prediction was made before Harry and Neville were born?

*edit*

Okay, you're right. In OOTP, Dumbledore said that the prediction was made right before Harry was born.

Yup, it looks like Voldemort did deliberate for quite awhile and perhaps he found out something that made it unnecessary for him to wait and see how the two boys developed and he merely completed the Prophecy by attacking without making the proper preparations.

Was he deliberating? Or was he waiting until the Potters secret was revealed. We're not sure when Peter became their secret keeper.

Yes we are. Mid-October. He betrayed them barely a week after the Charm was performed.

Yes we are. Mid-October. He betrayed them barely a week after the Charm was performed.So then voldemort couldn't have gone after Harry before that. He didn't know where Harry was. Could they have been at Hogwarts?

Did Peter rat-out the Potters straight away, though? He probably had to wait a few days for the all-clear before scampering off to Voldemort.

Anyway, back on topic, Dumbledore interviewed Trelawney in the Hog's Head so, presumably, it had to be someone associated with Hogwarts or Hogsmeade that overheard the prediction. Death Eaters wouldn't have any reason to stake out a routine staff interview between Dumbledore and another teacher (unless someone was spying on him continuously). Perhaps it was the rather familiar looking bloke who works behind the counter, or a regular such as Willy Widdershins? He'd betray anyone.

Actually Whiz, I think Voldy was still deciding who he thought the threat was. Dumbledore didn't call for a Secret-Keeper until he'd been informed that Voldemort had selected a target. That was--maybe the beginning of October. Then, the Fidelius Charm was performed. Then, after a little over a week, Peter gave them up and Voldemort showed up on Halloween.

Actually Whiz, I think Voldy was still deciding who he thought the threat was. Dumbledore didn't call for a Secret-Keeper until he'd been informed that Voldemort had selected a target. That was--maybe the beginning of October. Then, the Fidelius Charm was performed. Then, after a little over a week, Peter gave them up and Voldemort showed up on Halloween.

Hmmm, that doesn't seem quite right somehow... Why wouldn't Ickle Tommykins just go after both of them as soon as possible? That seems a little more likely. He could have attacked the Potters first just because of Wormtail's betrayal. Whatever was protecting the Longbottoms (fidelius charm, most likely) was still operational, so he left them for later.

Anyway, back to the original discussion...
Here's how I see it. Dumbledore knew that the person in question was the source for Voldy's take on the prophecy. Obviously, it would be someone he knew, by the time the books start, to have been associated with the death eaters. That eliminates Wormtail.
We also know that Peter Pettigrew's betrayal of the Potters wasn't, for obvious reasons, viewed very favourably by the death eaters , or by Voldy himself. We can safely say that the other source that sent LV to Godric's Hollow would be viewed in a similar light. We also know that this failure would have gone unpunished, at least from Riddle's point of view. As I suggested earlier, Avery fits this role fairly well, but it doesn't have to be him. It is, however, unlikely to be any of the other DE's who were present at the end of GoF. The source may be dead, one of the DE's who were in Azkaban at the time, or a traitor to the dark lord. It could also be an outsider of some kind.

Oh, I don't know that Voldy blamed Wormtail for what happened. In fact, I don't think that's ever come up. He takes a dim view of Pettigrew's loyalty at the START of GoF but that's because Pettigrew is there with "nowhere else to go." Uncharacteristically for him, Voldemort seems to have accepted that the onus for the debacle at with the Potters falls mostly on himself. He was careless.

Oh, I don't know that Voldy blamed Wormtail for what happened. In fact, I don't think that's ever come up. He takes a dim view of Pettigrew's loyalty at the START of GoF but that's because Pettigrew is there with "nowhere else to go." Uncharacteristically for him, Voldemort seems to have accepted that the onus for the debacle at with the Potters falls mostly on himself. He was careless.
Or he blames Harry for not dying and spoiling all his plans. :rolleyes:

Why couldn't Ludo Bagman be the eavesdropper?

Because if he had been, he wouldn't have gone directly to Voldemort. Dumbledore would have known that he (Bagman) had worked directly for Voldemort, reported directly to him, and was responsible for Voldemort's most famous double-murder. There's no way he would have sat quiet at the hearing and let Bagman get let off by a bunch of relieved wizards and a few Quidditch fan-girls.:rolleyes: He would have presented his evidence to the Wisengamot and he would have been as admant as Crouch about a tough sentence. No, I think Ludo might have been involved though.

Here's how I think it could have happened. Ludo found out Sybil was meeting Dumbledore--he has a fondness for daft women--about a Divination teaching position. He reported all this to Rockwood (presumably Rockwood wanted all the details scroungeable about Dumbledore for "security reasons young man, we can't have our greatest ally in this war walking around vulnerable to attack, now can we?"). Anyway, Rockwood hears that it's Sybil Trelawney and he checks his records and HOLY :censored: Sybil Trelawney is the great-great-granddaughter (I forgot how many greats it is but she's a descendant) of the awesomely powerful Cassandra. She doesn't have any Predictions to her own credit, but still this is interesting. Maybe Dumbledore knows something the Unspeakables don't yet. Rockwood decides to check it out. He disguises himself under a hood and toodles on off to the Hog's Head. He figures he won't get spotted if he just sits there drinks a firewhiskey and listens in.

The interview is a total bust. This Sybil Trelawney is a complete fraud. Turns out Dumbledore's doing the bat a courtesy just by showing up and is really thinking about discontinuing the subject. BLAST--undercover work for nothing. Oh well, be sure to tell Bagman what a great job he's doing and remind him that there'll be a job waiting for him. Meeting's over. Dumbledore's leaving. Might as well finish the glass and leave after he's safely away.

The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approahces... OH MY GOD!! A real prediction. Of the Dark Lord's Only enemy. Rockwood decides he better listen close and take notes. The barkeep notices him as he pulls out a quill and begins to write speedily.

...will be born to those who have defied him thrice... There's a soft chirping noise over his head, it sounds vaguely like the muted notes of Phoenix-song.

AAAH! Rockwood cries out as the force of a small tornado lifts him off his barstool and hurls him out the window. He only just manages to hang onto his napkin of notes. They discovered him! But it doesn't matter. He overheard a Prophecy, a real one. Just like the ones they keep on those shelves at work. And it contains the most vital information of the war. A boy about to be born will be the only one who can stand in the Dark Lord's way. And he, Rockwood, knows how to identify this threat. Not even Dumbledore could prevent him!:elaugh: Now all he has to do is present the information and his master can dispose of the little wretch before he can even light his father's wandtip:D The Dark Lord will be VERY pleased!:elaugh::elaugh::elaugh:

And all thanks to that fool Bagman :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh:

Sybil Trelawney is the great-great-granddaughter (I forgot how many greats it is but she's a descendant) of the awesomely powerful Cassandra.
One thing - Seeing, tends to, you know, well, skip three generations. :elaugh: You got it right - great-great-granddaughter.

And another thing. I think you're putting too much emphasis into Bagman. If the whole Bagman-Rookwood relationship comes up again in this context, it would most likely be with Bagman listening in, not Rookwood. (Also, there would be a bigger chance that the eavesdropper would be found if it was someone like Bagman than someone like Rookwood.) I just can't see the Bagman-finds-out-about-Trelawney-and-tells-Rookwood connection. Either Bagman has no role, or he has the role. I just can't see him learning about Trelawney because he likes daft women, or anything like that. Either he was the one listening, or there's no connection at all.

Lily?

It's interesting that DD doesn't name the person - so I'm assuming the name either has a lot of significance or none at all.

I'm guessing a scenario something like:

* DE spy following DD around on spec
* Spy listening outside door, thinking "what a waste of time", then hears start of prophecy
* Barman notices spy listening at door and chucks him out on general principles
* Barman tells DD about it afterwards so DD knows how much was heard

In which case the spy could be any random DE or Imperius-cursed wizard.

The implication was that it was somebody who was operating of their own volition (a DE) who was discovered and thrown from the building in the middle of the prophecy (as if whoever threw them out knew it was of the utmost importance to chuck them RIGHT NOW!). Again Ludo would not report directly to Voldemort and he would not be characterized as Voldemort's spy by Dumbledore. Dumbledore knows Bagman was suckered by Rockwood. Again, I see Bagman as a source for the location and time of the meeting and Rockwood or a similar DE as the person actually listening in.

And we've seen how Bagman reacts to daft women, he likes them, treats them pleasantly, doesn't mind working with them (Bertha), and he seemed to basically collect them as fans when he was a Beater for the Wasps (rather like fan-girl in the gallery who stopped the trial just to congratulate him on his Quidditch performance for England the previous Saturday).

toodles on off to the Hog's Head.:lol: That's a riot.;)

I don't think Dumbledore would have turned him in though. Dumbledore has such a problem with Dementors that I don't think he would hardly send anyone to Azkaban if he could help it. Besides, Bagman is clearly a patsy, and has probably learned his lesson. Just to be sure, the Order probably kept an eye on him, though.

But again, how would Crouch explain meeting Voldemort to Bagman? That's what doesn't seem to be getting through in our conversation. Whoever the spy was reported directly to Voldemorrt. I think even Ludo would have been...ah, slightly concerned if his intel-gathering mission for the Ministry involved talking to Voldemort.

Maybe he owed Voldemort money?

I see your point. The eavesdropper was in the service of the Dark Lord. Could Ludo have been under the imperious, or a threat?

Still........

He couldn't have said what he said in the chair in front of the Wisengamot with a straight face if he'd done something like that under threat. And Dumbledore probably would have mentioned if Ludo been under the Imperius Curse. "He was never charged again Harry, but he did serve Lord Voldemort more directly when controlled by the Imperius Curse." Or something like that. But that wasn't in any of the books.

Okay, it probably wasn't Ludo.
What did Ludo do to get brought to trial? I'm sorry. It's late. I'll look it up in the morning.:agree:

Information in the hands of DEs was traced to him. I think he met with a low-level of Rockwood's contacts who were I.D.ed as DEs. He explained in the dais that he had been collecting info for Rockwood, that he thought he was working for "our side." He also said that Rockwood kept talking about getting him a post at the Ministry after his playing career ended.

Although I bet we won't find out until book 7, I thought it might be useful to list all the characters who may be the eavesdropper who overheard the prophecy, and why.

Severus Snape - he seems to be the favourite. He was once a Death Eater so he would pass any information to Voldemort. He's widely believed to be the spy who tipped Dumbledore off about Voldemort being after the Potters, presumably due to his life debt. If he's the eavesdropper, then it will make the reader suspicious about him. It will also feed Harry's hatred of him, as he'd blame Snape for his parents' deaths.

Mundungus Fletcher - banned from the Hogs Head about 20 years ago. However, the eavesdropper heard the prophecy 15 years ago. Therefore for him to be the eavesdropper we have to assume either that 20 years is a rounded up figure, or Dung tried to get into the pub after he was banned, and was spotted and thrown out. He wasn't in the original Order of the Phoenix as he was not in the photo. We're told that: "he's also very loyal to Dumbledore, who helped him out of a tight spot once". Is this a hint that he was once involved with the Death Eaters? On the other hand, he's a petty criminal, and doesn't seem the Death Eater type. He's a humourous character, liked by Harry, and probably most readers, so if JKR wanted the eavesdropper's identity to be a shock, Mundungus would fit the bill.

Ludo Bagman - he passed secrets to Voldemort, but claimed he that he thought he was collecting information for the good side. He passed the information to Rookwood. Could this have included the prophecy? Bagman was a dodgy character and we've seen him in a pub before, although this was The Three Broomsticks. On the other hand Dumbledore says that the eavesdropper could not inform his master about the second half of the prophecy, which suggests that Voldemort was told directly, rather than indirectly, which means the eavesdropper has to be a Death Eater, whereas IMHO Bagman was just a dim sports hero.

Crabbe Sr - in the graveyard, Voldemort tells him to do better this time. However this could refer to general incompetence rather than failing to hear all of the prophecy.

Nott - Voldemort says the same applied to him, but again, it might not refer to a specific mistake on Nott's part.

Avery - he has already been seen failing to give Voldemort the correct information about retrieving the prophecy, so he may be generally useless. However, his function as a character seems to be being tortured, simply to show how badly Voldemort treats his followers.

The unknown Death Eater - a character who has not been introduced as of OOP.

Any other suspects people want to add?

JoTwo

Hmm...there's a list of the DE's at the Lexicon HP site. I think that we can rule out Wormtail. Why? Because first of all he would never be that lucky or that clever to have been able to find out about it. Secon whoever the easedropper was must not have expected anything to happen and was probably in their for a drink when he heard it. Also if it had been Wormtail Dumbledore would have known and he's never have allowed him to be anywhere near the Potters and they'd have known also. It would have to be a DE and Mundungus isn't one of them or else we'd have seen him at Voldemort's rebirthing party although it is peculiar that he was banned from the Hog's Head. I think that it's either Nott or Avery. They're the 2 most likely candidates for it.

There is a thread entitled Who Overheard the Prediction (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11367&highlight=overheard+prophesy) that already discusses this. I would recomend copying your list of suspects and posting it in the thread I linked (as the list is well thought out and deserves discussion).
Thanks :)

Hmm...there's a list of the DE's at the Lexicon HP site. I think that we can rule out Wormtail. Why? Because first of all he would never be that lucky or that clever to have been able to find out about it. Secon whoever the easedropper was must not have expected anything to happen and was probably in their for a drink when he heard it. Also if it had been Wormtail Dumbledore would have known and he's never have allowed him to be anywhere near the Potters and they'd have known also. It would have to be a DE and Mundungus isn't one of them or else we'd have seen him at Voldemort's rebirthing party although it is peculiar that he was banned from the Hog's Head. I think that it's either Nott or Avery. They're the 2 most likely candidates for it.


I think that we can rule out:
Wormtail
Ludo Bagman
Lucius Malfoy
Crouch:simply bc he's dead and I think the eavesdropper is someone whose still alive
Harry's parents
Sirius/Regulus
Remus
Fudge
Crabbe and Goyle

This may be dumb and I tried searching but didnt see anything...if it is being talked about please feel free to move this =)

Anyway, did Sirius know about the Prophecy? or even Lupin? I can understand Lupin not knowing but Sirius, being James' choice for secret keeper would have more of a reason to know. If James and Lily went into hiding when DD told them about the prediction would they have told Sirius, him being the secret Keeper? I am just wondering and curious if Sirius and Lupin or any other order members were aware of the prophecy and were told not to tell Harry or no one but DD and Harry know...

Well I'm sure James would probably tell Sirius anyways as they were both like brothers. Well as for the secret keeper, I'm sure they had to know some part of it. Wouldn't you want to know why you were a secret keeper for someone?

I might be failing to remember a big something, having only read it fully once, but I thought the whole Order knew about the prophecy and what it entailed...? They were talking about a 'secret weapon' and I assumed later that this was code for Harry - the prophecy mentioned that he had power the Dark Lord 'knew not'.

Actually, I thought that was the reason they were keeping the prophecy away from Voldemort. That they wanted that unknown Power to remain a secret.

EDIT: Oh, do you mean before OOTP? In that case, I haven't the foggiest. But I suspect that it would be told on a strictly need-to-know basis because of the risk involved.

I might be failing to remember a big something, having only read it fully once, but I thought the whole Order knew about the prophecy and what it entailed...? They were talking about a 'secret weapon' and I assumed later that this was code for Harry - the prophecy mentioned that he had power the Dark Lord 'knew not'.

Actually, I thought that was the reason they were keeping the prophecy away from Voldemort. That they wanted that unknown Power to remain a secret.

EDIT: Oh, do you mean before OOTP? In that case, I haven't the foggiest. But I suspect that it would be told on a strictly need-to-know basis because of the risk involved.


Actually I mean anywhere from when the Potters found out to OoTp. It would make sense for Sirius and Lupin to know but I guess DD told them not to tell him....hmmm.

So I assume that James and Lily told Sirius...but since no one really trusted eachother and for some reason Sirius didnt trust Lupin(but thats a whole other thread :)...) that maybe Lupin didn't exactly know...maybe he found out later???...ugh I dont know lol

Dumbledore said that someone at the pub told Voldemort about the prophecy, but it seems to me just as possible that Peter told him. I doubt Peter did tell him, but as hermione fan so wisely said, wouldn't you want to know why you were being a secret-keeper? In that case, we could safely assume Peter knew about the prophecy... so why didn't Peter tell Voldemort? It raises questions of loyalty... such information seems like it would be extremely valuable to Voldemort. We know Peter was already in his ranks then, so why wouldn't he share the information... it seems like that would put him in a very favorable position if he did. It's possible he was beaten to the chase, but I don't recall that Voldemort's informant is mentioned as high up in Death-Eater ranks (correct me if I'm wrong- my OotP is on loan to my dad). It doesn't seem to follow to me...

I think they might have all been told. It was important to know and, initially, presumably, they wouldn't have had any suspects of treachery. It would seem that Peter knew even before he became the alternate Secret Keeper - why would he have been spilling information to Voldemort if he wasn't aware of the Potter's importance?

Their closest friends might have been told because they needed CONSTANT VIGILANCE! If they didn't know about the risks, any of them could have disclosed information by accident in a pub. They would also need to know why, if they fancied a visit, the location of their friends had suddenly become unobservable.

Dumbledore said that someone at the pub told Voldemort about the prophecy, but it seems to me just as possible that Peter told him. I doubt Peter did tell him, but as hermione fan so wisely said, wouldn't you want to know why you were being a secret-keeper? In that case, we could safely assume Peter knew about the prophecy... so why didn't Peter tell Voldemort? It raises questions of loyalty... such information seems like it would be extremely valuable to Voldemort. We know Peter was already in his ranks then, so why wouldn't he share the information... it seems like that would put him in a very favorable position if he did. It's possible he was beaten to the chase, but I don't recall that Voldemort's informant is mentioned as high up in Death-Eater ranks (correct me if I'm wrong- my OotP is on loan to my dad). It doesn't seem to follow to me...

But whoever heard the phrophecy did tell Voldemort(whether it was Peter or not) If it was Peter he did tell Voldie but he could only tell him what he heard which wasnt too much.

I am not quite sure, it is an interesting question. I assume that everyone in the Order would be aware of the prophecy, since it holds extremely vital information regarding to the fight against the Dark Lord. As for before hand, nobody can really say. The old Order might have known about the prophecy just after it was recited. Even though Harry wasn't born at the time, it would have been an interesting bit of information for the Order to know.

:scared: :shrug: Am I missing something really big?, I feel like I am...

I think that with all the doubts people had about each other that the Potters were the only people besides Dumbledore who knew the content of the prophesy. If there was a chance that Lupin and Sirius knew then I think that Voldemort would try to get it out of them instead of trying to break into the Dept. of Mysteries and have Harry take it off the shelf for them. It for sure that Peter didn't even know and he was their secret keeper. So I don't think that Sirius and Lupin knew exactly what was in the prophesy.

Ok now im confuzzled...was Peter feeding Voldie info even before he found out about the prophecy from Sirius or did he start telling voldie stuff once he found out about it....?? *scratches head*

Do we actually know whether Lily and James knew the prophecy or not? Could they have just been told to stay in hiding and not been filled in on the exact details? I can't seem to remember a part in the book where it's actually confirmed that Lily and James knew about the details of it.

Do we actually know whether Lily and James knew the prophecy or not? Could they have just been told to stay in hiding and not been filled in on the exact details? I can't seem to remember a part in the book where it's actually confirmed that Lily and James knew about the details of it.


Id assume they would. You'd think they would want to know why they had to go into hiding....

Id assume they would. You'd think they would want to know why they had to go into hiding....


Well yes but seeing as they are part of the Order it wouldn't be surprising that they had to hide seeing as they were going up in direct competition with Voldemort on a regular basis. I'm just thinking that maybe Dumbledore kept it quiet so that it could never be revealed to anyone who didn't actually need to know.

True but the two people who deserve to know woudl be James and Lily. I couldn't imagine DD keeping something like that from them but maybe I am wrong....

I really do not see the order being told the contents of the prophecy. It's too important. I think they know of its existence and I think that is the "secret weapon", not Harry.

Ok now im confuzzled...was Peter feeding Voldie info even before he found out about the prophecy from Sirius or did he start telling voldie stuff once he found out about it....?? *scratches head*

You mean before Sirius asked him to be Secret Keeper? Well, Sirius said that Peter had been splling information for a year before their deaths. I don't think Peter was Secret Keeper for that long - he went straight to Voldemort with the exciting news.

I agree that Lily and James would have to know. The rest of the Order weren't being subjected to such high security and I think they'd pick up on that and be suspicious.

You can't tell somebody that they and their baby son are in imminent danger and not say why or how. It would be even more distressing than knowing. I don't think that would be very Dumbledore.

giantsquid28, but why would they think that a prophecy, or the existence of a prophecy (and Voldemort knew of it's existence too), is the 'secret weapon'. The prophecy in itself can't actually do anything and if they had no idea about what it spoke about, wouldn't 'weapon' be a strange word to use? If, for all they knew, it could have been about the number of toes on Harry's left foot?

oh ya! I forget about that Peter was spilling info for a year.

The prophecy could be a weapon in a way since it is what Voldemort needed to find out everything he needs to know.

Did it ever mention exactly who it was who told Voldemort about the prophecy? I wish I had my book!!! If it doesn't, I'm betting it was Peter who told about the prophecy. It would make sense... Voldemort's (first) downfall was caused because he attempted to kill Harry. Peter went into hiding... it would seem rational that he hide from Voldie's supporters if he were responsible for providing Voldemort the reason and location to attempt to kill Harry. It makes his going into hiding even more understandable (not meaning easy to empathize with, but it provides even more of a motive).

Did it ever mention exactly who it was who told Voldemort about the prophecy? I wish I had my book!!! If it doesn't, I'm betting it was Peter who told about the prophecy. It would make sense... Voldemort's (first) downfall was caused because he attempted to kill Harry. Peter went into hiding... it would seem rational that he hide from Voldie's supporters if he were responsible for providing Voldemort the reason and location to attempt to kill Harry. It makes his going into hiding even more understandable (not meaning easy to empathize with, but it provides even more of a motive).


No, DD never said who it was that heard but my guess is Peter as well...ugh stupid little idiot! I hate him! lol.

My guess would be that Sirius and Lupin and the rest of the Order knew that there was a prophecy, but they didn't know exactly what it was. I think someone said that it would be too dangerous since there could be spies and whatnot, so the details of the prophecy wouldn't be something that is talked about lightly.

I'm with FoolOnTheHill. I think they knew there was a prophecy but not the full contents for secuirty measures. If I were the Potters I don't think that I'd have told even my best friends about the contents.

The Order were probably told that there was a prophecy about voldemort and Harry and that the dark lord was after it. The Potters and the Longbottoms would have been told almost the same thing except you replace "he's after the prophecy" with "he's after your son".

Whether Sirius was told before or years later about the existence of a prophecy is up for debate. I doubt he would have been told of it's contents in any event(a matter between the One and Dumbledore), but he would have wanted to know why his friends were in danger or <...fast forward to 14 years later...> might have asked DD if this prophecy that Voldemort was after was the reason why his best friends had died.

Lupin wasn't trusted too 100% during the time before the Potters died, so he didn't know about the prophesy, is my guess. I don't think anyone did. Really, it was none of their business. All they would need to know is that Voldemort for some reason was after the Potters and the Longbottoms. That would be enough, for them to know why Lily and James (and probably the Longbottoms as well) would have to go into hiding.

The Order couldn't take the risk that Voldemort would find out. That's the trouble with war. You stop trusting each other.

Moody said that there was some thing weird with the potter boy and they all knew it so i dont think that they have been told about the prophecy because Moody knows there is some thing odd about Harry but he gives no hint to the prophecy,So i dont think the order know.James and Lily of couse had to know about the prophecy ITS THERE SON.

They must have known about its existance, as they were after all in the Order. But, I don't think Dumbledore had told any of them, what the whole prophecy was about. because that would have meant a leak and Voldemort is still powerful. :grumbles: *waits for the Book7 to come and finish him off*

~/*-*\~ petronus

Yes, James and Lily knew of the prophecy since they were put in a Fidelius charm as soon as it was made. It makes me wonder why the Longbottoms weren't and how the Potters were automatically singled out. Well, of course, it's because LV saw Harry as more of a threat because he sees himself to Harry, but there must be something else that made Voldemort choose the Potters. Anyway, I think only Harry and Dumbledore know of the whole implication of the prophecy at the moment. It's not worth the risk for everyone to know yet. Doesn't Voldemort know only the first half and is oblivious about the whole "the other can't live while the other lives" other half of the prophecy?

makes me wonder why the Longbottoms weren't and how the Potters were automatically singled out. Well, of course, it's because LV saw Harry as more of a threat because he sees himself to Harry, but there must be something else that made Voldemort choose the Potters.
I think Potters were singled out b/c they had encountered Voldemort more than the Longbottoms as Dumbledore explained in the same chapter of OotP. Three times Harry's parents have defeated Voldemort, how; we still don't know.

~/*-*\~ Petronus

I don't think even James and Lily about the prophecy. I think that they just knew Voldemort wanted them dead, and why wouldn't he, they escaped him three times. I think that the telling people would only increase the chances of it getting out, so no one was told.

I think that the Order probably know that there is a prophecy, but not necessarily the exact details.

My speculation is that Dumbledore protected the full contents (i.e. the bit Voldemort didn't know) with a Fidelius Charm with himself as Secret-Keeper. That would allow him to tell the Order what it contained, but would prevent Voldemort finding out (since the only way he could do so is if Dumbledore told him personally, which isn't likely).

If the secret wasn't protected in that way, then Dumbledore really shouldn't have told anybody (except by storing it in the Hall of Prophecy in case of emergencies), as every extra person in the know is one more potential weak link who can be captured by the Death Eaters and forced to tell (by torture, Veritaserum, whatever).

fidelius charm on a prophecy huh what????!!?
remember there were only 3 people who knew about the prophecy when it happend...onne heard half of it, which was told to voldemort immediate...one was in a trance (ST) and the other of course was AD so really there was no need to hide the prophecy because AD was the only one that heard it in its full contents and he transtlated to the prophecy ball. which was put in the
secret room to the mystery so only harry and voldermort could hear its contents. SO only AD ever knew about its contents.

and i'd agree with spirit that the potters never knew about the prophecy's contents just that the dark lord was after them.

and i believe it was stated in the PoA that not a day/week after the fidelius charm was cast that LV found them so i doubt it was wormtail that heard the prophecy...but its very funny how AD didn't go after this person who did.

As for the longbottoms they probably went into hiding also since the attack on them occured a year later that means they could have undone the fidlius.

and remember the only reason harry was chosen was because the dark lord chose him not because his parents thwarted him more than the longbottoms.
And I believe the longbottoms were probably more famous then the potters.

fidelius charm on a prophecy huh what????!!?

A Fidelius Charm protects a secret - anything that's a secret. Since the second half of the prophecy is something that needs to be kept very secret, a Fidelius Charm would be a sensible precaution (given an expert wizard like Dumbledore who has the ability to cast the complex spell required).



remember there were only 3 people who knew about the prophecy when it happend...onne heard half of it, which was told to voldemort immediate...one was in a trance (ST) and the other of course was AD so really there was no need to hide the prophecy because AD was the only one that heard it in its full contents and he transtlated to the prophecy ball. which was put in the secret room to the mystery so only harry and voldermort could hear its contents. SO only AD ever knew about its contents.

Originally, yes. The question is, though: what happens if/when Dumbledore tells somebody? That's why I think his sensible courses of action would have been either not tell anyone, or protect the secret of the full contents with the Fidelius Charm.



and i'd agree with spirit that the potters never knew about the prophecy's contents just that the dark lord was after them.

Very possible - Lily's screams when Voldemort turned up don't really suggest that she knew exactly why he was there.

I would think that Dumbledore would tell the Potters about the prophecy or what it said, I mean. I just look at it in a way if I was a parent. If someone told me I had to go into hiding because the enemy is looking for me and my child I would WANT to know why.

I dont know about the whole order knowing about the Fidelius charm but Lupin sure did since he stated in PoA to Sirius "Unless you switched without telling me?" so obviuously he knew they went into hiding and they hadda use the charm etc etc but I guess that really still doesnt answer if he KNEW about the prohpecy...*scratches head*

But anyway, i agree...Madeye by saying that there is something about that potter kid makes it look like he doesnt know about it....

Originally posted by petronus:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godric heiress
makes me wonder why the Longbottoms weren't and how the Potters were automatically singled out. Well, of course, it's because LV saw Harry as more of a threat because he sees himself to Harry, but there must be something else that made Voldemort choose the Potters.

I think Potters were singled out b/c they had encountered Voldemort more than the Longbottoms as Dumbledore explained in the same chapter of OotP. Three times Harry's parents have defeated Voldemort, how; we still don't know.

Actually we do know, petronus. In OotP, DD explained quite clearly that it's because Voldermort was half-blood, and Harry is also half-blood. Voldermort kinda saw himself through Harry, a half-blood power of wizard kinds. But the problem of Voldermort's killing muggle-born and half-blood wizards is because of his father. Remember, It's Voldermort's father abandoning him and his mother that led him to revenge.

***van.

They must have if they were in the order and they were best buddies of James Potter. I don't see why they wouldn't have known

They must have if they were in the order and they were best buddies of James Potter. I don't see why they wouldn't have known


Hmm yes but remember you didnt know who to trust at the time....

we know for some reason Sirius didnt trust Lupin...but we dont know if James thought the same way...

I think Potters were singled out b/c they had encountered Voldemort more than the Longbottoms as Dumbledore explained in the same chapter of OotP. Three times Harry's parents have defeated Voldemort, how; we still don't know.

The book mentioned that the Longbottoms defeated Voldemort as many times as the Potters--three, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, the Order definitely knows there is a prophecy (seeing that it seems as though many of them took turns to protect the glass sphere) but they just don't know the exact details of it.

Moody says in the hospital that "There's something funny about the Potter boy," as if they don't know exactly what is funny about Harry. I think that the Order doesn't necessarily have to know. I mean, they follow DD's orders, they want to protect Harry, and they know that there is a prophecy concerning Harry and Voldemort. They don't have to know the exact details. Just knowing thier task is enough. If you are in the military, you are not always told what the purpose of your mission is.

Incedently, though, do you all think that Trelawney knows about the prophecy? Considering she has tears everytime she sees Harry, I think she might. But it never implicitily says that she does. And, remember she forgets what she prophesized after its over. What do you reckon?

Moody says in the hospital that "There's something funny about the Potter boy," as if they don't know exactly what is funny about Harry.

I just took that quote as referring to the vision that he saw and that there is something unnatural about the fact that he saw it. The vision is what is "so funny about him." (That's JMO on the quote~ who knows?)



Incedently, though, do you all think that Trelawney knows about the prophecy? Considering she has tears everytime she sees Harry, I think she might. But it never implicitily says that she does. And, remember she forgets what she prophesized after its over. What do you reckon?

I don't think she remembers it at all. It might be buried in part of her subconscious and that is why DD keeps her around (so LV doesn't get ahold of her and interrogate her.)

I don't think she remembers it at all. It might be buried in part of her subconscious and that is why DD keeps her around (so LV doesn't get ahold of her and interrogate her.)

Wow! I never even thought about that until you mentioned it!

great post...I never thought of that either. I always assume, as everyone else, that some invisible magical Seer sight of her grandmother used her body to issue the prophecy. Maybe you are right, it's kinda weird though, isn't it...

excellent question...

***van.

I think Potters were singled out b/c they had encountered Voldemort more than the Longbottoms as Dumbledore explained in the same chapter of OotP.
Actually, the Longbottoms had defied Voldemort three times too:

Sybill's prophesy could have applied to two wizard boys, born at the end of July that year, both whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times.
I think the only ones who knew the whole prophesy were the Potters, the Longbottoms and Dumbledore. According to Fudge in PoA, Dumbledore suspected that someone close to the Potters had been passing on information. He probably didn't want anyone to know.

They must have if they were in the order and they were best buddies of James Potter. I don't see why they wouldn't have known
Wormtail was also a great friend, and he betrayed them to Voldemort. If he knew the whole prophesy, he would have told Voldemort, which means Wormtail didn't know the whole thing. And if they hadn't told Wormtail they probably hadn't told anyone else either.

I just realized something. Only the people on whom the prophecy was made can touch the prophecy right? So why exactly did Voldemort use Sirius in the dream when only the prophecy-subjects could touch it. Also I am sure he must have known that the order members would disbelief Harry's dream bcos they knew about this property, but they did not. One would think that Snape would tell Harry " But only you can touch it,Silly Boy. "but he didn't and he was worried. Which leads me to believe that Sirius did know how to get the prophecy even if it was not about him. Who could have told him though? His brother is my best guess. We dont know why Regulus was killed by Voldemort, but this could be the very reason. I wonder if he was the eavesdropper at Hog's head . This could also be the real reason Dumbledore did not want Sirius to get out of the house.

I just realized something. Only the people on whom the prophecy was made can touch the prophecy right? So why exactly did Voldemort use Sirius in the dream when only the prophecy-subjects could touch it.
Voldemort didn't use Sirius in the dream, Sirius was still safe and sound at Number 12. What Voldemort did was that he tricked Harry into thinking Sirius was there and being tortured by Voldemort. Voldemort knew by then that the person Harry would go into the greatest lengths to save was Sirius, which would mean that Harry would rush of to the DoM, which he did.

That was the whole point of it, to get Harry into the DoM, get him to take down the Prophesy, and then the Death Eaters would take it from him, go the Voldemort and give it to him. That way Voldemort would get it without showing himself.

I hope that made sense, Abhishek. :)

Voldemort didn't use Sirius in the dream, Sirius was still safe and sound at Number 12. What Voldemort did was that he tricked Harry into thinking Sirius was there and being tortured by Voldemort. Voldemort knew by then that the person Harry would go into the greatest lengths to save was Sirius, which would mean that Harry would rush of to the DoM, which he did.

That was the whole point of it, to get Harry into the DoM, get him to take down the Prophesy, and then the Death Eaters would take it from him, go the Voldemort and give it to him. That way Voldemort would get it without showing himself.

I hope that made sense, Abhishek. :)

That did make sense, thanks Doggy. Voldemort did not use Sirius himself but his image in Harry's head, but wouldn't Voldemort know that the order would know that only the subject could touch the prophecy. Why did not Snape brush off Harry's dream. He would have said " Sirius can't touch it so your dream is fake." right there and then. Instead he goes to check on Sirius.

Now, I hope that is clear( which i am sure it isn't).LOL

That did make sense, thanks Doggy. Voldemort did not use Sirius himself but his image in Harry's head, but wouldn't Voldemort know that the order would know that only the subject could touch the prophecy. Why did not Snape brush off Harry's dream. He would have said " Sirius can't touch it so your dream is fake." right there and then. Instead he goes to check on Sirius.
Yes, but unfortunately Harry forgot that Snape was in the Order, so he didn't have a chance to tell Snape. All he said in the end was "he's got Padfoot in the place where it is hidden". Not anything about Sirius taking the prophesy down (you'll have to keep in mind that Harry didn't know anything about the prophesy at this point). And when Snape had checked that Sirius wasn't in the DoM, Harry had already left.

I think we should get back on topic now.

About people knowing about the prophesy, I'm sure the Order does know that there is one and that it's about Harry and Voldemort (otherwise Mrs. Weasley wouldn't be so against letting Harry know about the weapon). However, I do not think that they know the exact wording or the exact message of it. There is no real need for it really.

Voldemort did not use Sirius himself but his image in Harry's head, but wouldn't Voldemort know that the order would know that only the subject could touch the prophecy.

Good point, actually - to judge from Lucius Malfoy's surprise at how little Harry knew, Voldemort expected Harry to have been told about the existence of the prophecy and the nature of the protective spells. So he should have expected Harry to know that he - Voldemort - could take the prophecy without going mad, but Sirius couldn't. A possible mistake?

IT could have been anyone alive or dead...and the person could have passed it to anyone closest to LV.
Ludo was passing info to rookwood so i doubt he over heard it. Lucius probably would n't be caught dead in a place like that. But the way JKR put the eavedropper she kinda made him seem like a weasley and thus my vote is on AVERY. He seems to like to collect information or guess at it.

Crabe and goyle if like their sons are too stupid.

It would have to be a DE and Mundungus isn't one of them or else we'd have seen him at Voldemort's rebirthing party although it is peculiar that he was banned from the Hog's Head. I think that it's either Nott or Avery. They're the 2 most likely candidates for it.not necessarily. mundungus could have been a DE, but like snape and karkaroff, didn't go to voldy when he was called. i think it fits perfectly that he was the one who overheard. i just think it was too much work to write that he was banned instead of having him just be there and overhear. like ron said, "why was dung hiding from us?...we'd've liked to've seen him." there was no reason for it. i think the fact that he was banned 20 years ago is important, not just a passing comment. why else would she have mentioned, in the same book, that dung was banned and the person who overheard was kicked out.

did i make any sense at all? :lol:

SO it couldn't be DD who detected the spy because he was listening to the prophecy right? He can't jsut put SPT on pause...so it must have been the bar keep. Now why would the barkeep be snooping around where DD and SPT were talking unless the barkeep and DD are friends which makes me believe, like the many of you already have pointed out, that aberforth is 80% mostlikely the barkeep(which i'll go post at the other thread now).

My bet on the eavesdropper is still AVERY though a dead DE could have also heard it.

Dumbledore knows who it is that we know because whoever it was it's probably not someone that he'd allow to be close to Harry. I think that we can rule out Pettigrew because if it was him thatn Dumbledore would have told the Potters to cut off all contact with him. Mundungus was banned 20 years ago but it doesn't seem like he would do something like that. He may be criminal but he doesn't strike me as the type to side with Voldemort.

OK, here's an off-the-cuff theory (if it's been mentioned before, apologies, I didn't feel up to ploughing through the entire thread). How about Regulus Black as the eavesdropper? The reasons are mainly external not internal, admittedly:

(1) Introducing a DE brother of Sirius into the story was inevitably suggestive - readers are bound to want to know more
(2) We never find out what he did for the DEs, or why Voldemort had him killed - hence this may be the subject of a further revelation in book 6 or 7
(3) We now know from JKR's interview that he isn't going to do a Wormtail and turn out to have been alive in hiding all this time - so that isn't going to be the plot twist
(4) Although the interview question was obviously asking if Regulus would have a part to play in future books, it was badly worded, and so JKR carefully managed to avoid saying that he was irrelevant to the plot - suggestive of the possibility of some relevant piece of backstory coming up
(5) He was killed "some fifteen years" before the early events of OotP - i.e. right around the time the prophecy was made and Harry was born
(6) Dumbledore seems fairly confident about how much of the prophecy Voldemort knows - suggesting that he's been told by either the person who heard it or someone in the real DE inner circle

So here's a wild speculation (obviously lacking in evidence, but hey this is a HP forum!). Regulus is assigned to spy on Dumbledore, overhears part of the prophecy and gets chucked out, then reports it to Voldemort. When it becomes obvious that one of the boys the prophecy might refer to is the son of his brother's best friend, he warns Dumbledore to keep Sirius out of the firing line. Dumbledore sends the Potters into hiding. Voldemort, realising what Regulus has done, has him executed.

As I said upthread somewhere, the fact that Dumbledore doesn't name the eavesdropper likely means that the name would be either (a) very significant or (b) totally insignificant, not (c) mildly interesting. If it's (a), then Regulus is a plausible option.

What I don't understand is that during the prophecy, there was an eavesdropper and Dumbledore caught him. Now it's written that DD got him thrown out of the pub. Why didn't he just put a memory charm on him? And if you don't want to use a memory charm, just send him to Azkaban...However, DD just let him go...

And Trelawney wouldn't have stopped to predict and waited for the evesdropper to be thrown out. She was in a trance and even if she wanted to, she couldn't have stopped.

Here's the whole Prophecy:

"The One with the Power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

Have you noticed all those frequent pauses (...)? What if this was the prophecy as DD heard it and those pauses are used where DD had missed some parts because he was busy making sure that the eavesdropper was out?

But my main question is that why did DD let the eavesdropper go?

The idea that Dumbledore didn't hear the whole prophecy is a very interesting one, but IIRC, he didn't say that it was he himself who caught the eavesdropper. The pauses could have been periods when Trelawney didn't speak. As for why the eavesdropper was just thrown out, I've got no idea right now.

What I don't understand is that during the prophecy, there was an eavesdropper and Dumbledore caught him. Now it's written that DD got him thrown out of the pub. Why didn't he just put a memory charm on him? And if you don't want to use a memory charm, just send him to Azkaban...However, DD just let him go...

Put him in Azkaban? What did he do? I find it highly unlikely that eavesdropping is a criminal offence in the wizarding world.

Ultimately Dumbledore probably wouldn't have known that the individual who had eavesdropped had sided with Lord Voldemort and therefore had no reason to contain him.

I don't think that Dumbledore *did* catch the eavesdropper.... at that point he had his attention focused on Prof T. I believe that whomever it was was either a known Death Eater, and thus universally hated, though this is doubtful as the person probably would not simply be kicked out... or someone who had been banned from Hogs Head. Now in saying that, I am *not* accusing Mundungenes, but it *is* possible that whomever overheard the prophecy didn't report *directly* or even *knowingly*. Like Hagrid in The first book... it could have been wheedled or tricked out of the person. So, if Dung heard it, got drunk and blabbed, anyone could have picked it up and run to Voldemort.

Put him in Azkaban? What did he do? I find it highly unlikely that eavesdropping is a criminal offence in the wizarding world.

Ultimately Dumbledore probably wouldn't have known that the individual who had eavesdropped had sided with Lord Voldemort and therefore had no reason to contain him.

Dumbledore can perform Legilemency...He would've known...

And if eavesdropping is not an offence, why was the person thrown out?

I don't think it was Dumbledore who threw the person out. He can't be in two places at once, and he was there listening to Trelawney's prediction.

And the person didn't have to be doing anything illegal. If someone's snooping around the rooms of an inn where they shouldn't be, especially if they're not paying, they'd be kicked out anyway. But they may have been barred as well.

Dumbledore can perform Legilemency...He would've known...

It also appears that he doesn't like to overuse his talent.

And if eavesdropping is not an offence, why was the person thrown out?

You aren't seriously trying to suggest that eavesdropping is an offence because the person was thrown out? If Dumbledore wanted privacy then the person eavesdropping was in the wrong and was therefore thrown out. However eavesdropping isn't going to result in an individual being arrested or contained against their will.

Dumbledore said the person eavesdropping "was caught and throw out", not that he did the catching. It's in passive tense, which means the person who did the catching is not identified, so we have no idea. We don't even know that the eavesdropper was thrown out for listening in (although that is slightly implied). He might've just been snooping around, like Dedalus said, and gotten tossed on general principles.

But don't you think that it's a bit stupid of Dumbledore to let go of a person who just overheard a very important prediction?