Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.6

Welcome to the sixth version of this thread! :)

For background reading and reference:
version one (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108022)
version two (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=109066)
version three (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=110006)
version four (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111003)
version five (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=112236)

Although it was not a complete success, I'd like to include quotations as a basis for discussion in this version as well. You are of course welcome to propose certain scenes you'd like to see analysed if they have not come up in the discussion already.

He was on his feet again, furious, ready to fly at Dumbledore, who had plainly not understood Sirius at all, how brave he was, how much he had suffered …

`What about Snape?' Harry spat. `You're not talking about him, are you? When I told him Voldemort had Sirius he just sneered at me as usual -

`Harry, you know Professor Snape had no choice but to pretend not to take you seriously in front of Dolores Umbridge,' said Dumbledore steadily, `but as I have explained, he informed the Order as soon as possible about what you had said. It was he who deduced where you had gone when you did not return from the Forest. It was he, too, who gave Professor Umbridge fake Veritaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell her Sirius's whereabouts.'

Harry disregarded this; he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Snape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him.

`Snape - Snape g - goaded Sirius about staying in the house - he made out Sirius was a coward =

'Sirius was much too old and clever to have allowed such feeble taunts to hurt him,' said Dumbledore.

`Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!' Harry snarled. `He threw me out of his office!'

`I am aware of it,' said Dumbledore heavily `I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence -

`Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him = Harry remembered Ron's thoughts on the subject and plunged on `- how do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort, make it easier for him to get inside my =

`I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply `But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.'

`But that's OK, is it?' yelled Harry, ignoring the scandalised faces and disapproving mutterings of the portraits on the walls. `It's OK for Snape to hate my dad, but it's not OK for Sirius to hate Kreacher?'

Old and new study questions:



Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?
What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?
What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?



AS THIS IS STILL A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SENSITIVE TOPIC WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE BE SENSITIVE TO OTHERS OPINIONS. THIS MEANS NO GLOATING AS WELL AS NO BASHING. CONSEQUENCES WILL BE SEVERE.

Additionally please read How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) and Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021) BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD

Now go on with the debate! :)

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I tend to doubt that he would have -- he seemed to respect her privacy, but I doubt that he would have moved on entirely. As for turning to the good side, I don't think that he would have most likely have done so.


Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
The "murder" of Dumbledore, was pretty much planned between the two of them -- so I don't think that his love of Lily really affected it persay. As for his treatment of Sirius, in someways, he had the right to treat him the way he did. Sirius was not a nice person in someways himself, so in the end, the way that Snape treated him was somewhat understandable.


Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
He wanted to do something impressive for Lily.


How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
They don't change the view of how Snape treated Harry one iota. The way that he treated him was just inexcusable. Lily wouldn't have liked it one bit. The cruelty that he had shown, along with the bullying, was just sick. Snape was basically acting in a similar way that the Marauders were towards him. And there's no excuse for that behavior.

As for Neville, well I think that Snape knew that Neville could do better than he thought he could. It still doesn't excuse him from the way he acted towards him, but he seemed to stop bullying him once he (Neville) started to fight for himself and become a better wizard and person, and his self-esteem had improved.


What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?
I thought they were partially done out of fear and selfishness. Snape didn't even care for the rest of the Potters' family, all he wanted was Lily, safe and sound.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?
I think that what he had done after Lily's death, was brave in some ways. I think that her death had made him a better person, letting him know that he'd had experienced love. That's what kept him going.


What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Strengths: He didn't give up, he was able to feel love, he wanted to save those who he could save; Flaws: He was cold, cruel, bullying, selfish, could be obsessed with stuff


Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
Nope, he only cared about Lily, and all he could ever see in Harry was James. And the sight of it, filled him up with hatred.


What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I think that could have happened. One of my favorite scenes in DH, was where Dumbledore told Snape that he'd have to be the one to kill him. Snape's reaction to that, seemed to show that he'd cared for him and didn't want to do it.


Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
He seemed to belong there the most out of the four houses. Who knows -- it would have been up to him, what choices he would have made, and whether or not they would have been any different.


There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
The fact that he wanted to save who he could and the fact that he could even feel any love in the first place. Well he's more of an anti-hero to me, he doesn't really have that many characteristics of a traditional hero in the first place.


Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?
Nope, he did partially redeem himself in my eyes, due to the fact that he did so much to bring down Voldemort, but overall -- he hadn't redeemed himself fully, due to his behavior and treatment of others. I can't say for sure on that one.

Oooh, new questions! Thanks, Moriath, I will get to them later. :)

I voted in the poll for Lily, Harry, all of the Malfoys, Albus, Minerva, and Other.

I included "Other" for the students of Hogwarts. There are a few instances in canon that suggest this, in my view, including Snape's apparent protection of Neville on a couple of occasions in OotP, and his willingness to commit to their protection in the post-Dumbledore era.

I don't think he cared for all of these people equally, I voted for them if I thought he cared for them at all in any way. I think Lily, Harry and Albus would top the list, with Lily alone in a class by herself.

The Malfoys are I think a legacy of his past, and he would put not only the first three, but doing the right thing for the war, ahead of the Malfoys' best interests.

Minerva and the students come last, as I see it. She's a respected colleague; caring for the students is tied in with doing his job well, something I believe to have been a source of pride for Snape.

I voted Lily (for obvious reasons), Malfoy (but neither of his parents, I think he watched over him for Lucius and Narcissa but never really liked either of them, but that he did come to like Draco), and Dumbledore. There had to be some sort of caring/respect for Dumbledore for Snape to do all that he did for Dumbledore.

From Previous version :).

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy:
Snape seemed to trust Dumbledore completely and I feel that Snape later felt betrayed by Dumbledore when he found out that Voldemort believed him to be the Master of the Elder Wand.

Originally Posted by Zgirnius: If you are going to take everything Snape says literally, note that Snape expressed his sense of betrayal in the very scene in which you would have us believe he was trusting Dumbledore completely ("You have used me," etc.). And he expressed those feelings before he was asked about his feelings for Harry.

I agree with you completely. I do believe that Snape felt betrayed in that moment. However, I feel that Dumbledore deftly regained Snape's trust when he brought the conversation around to Lily once more. He reminded Snape that he'd never cared for Harry in the first place, so whether Harry lived or died was immaterial. The important point, which I believe Snape agreed to, was that he was doing this for Lily (bringing down Voldemort). Snape, imo, was wise enough to understand that Dumbledore would have been hard pressed to convince Snape using that idea at first, because when Snape initially made his promise, Voldemort had been vanquished. Talk of Voldemort's future return, including the necessity of protecting Lily's son against him, were far off ideas at the time that might never occur. But imo, Snape was not willling to allow Voldemort, Lily's killer, to remain alive tormenting the world and that is what Dumbledore reiterated to regain Snape's full trust in him. That is why I believe that Snape did indeed trust Dumbledore just before his death and imo, Snape's demeanor (expressions, behavior, etc) showed that he once again felt betrayed.

Essentially, this is a point of further redemption for Snape - in the form of a test. As I indicated before, he could have blurted out the truth in an attempt to save himself. While Voldemort might have killed him on the spot for his admission, it is more likely that Snape would have been able to convince him that he'd taken advantage of Dumbledore's offer because he knew it was what Voldemort would have wanted him to do. Additionally, Voldemort would have wished to find out what further information he could garner from Snape. Snape didn't have to disclose that Draco must be the true master (Snape may not have even known that information). He could have merely said that Dumbledore was wandless when he killed him (which was true and verifiable from the other Death Eaters that were present). The other Death Eaters had also not seen the disarming, so that too would have led to a dead end.

Thus, Snape was presented with a real choice at the end of his life to defy Dumbledore and the worthy ideal of vanquishing Voldemort altogether, imo. Snape elected not to do so, despite feeling betrayed.

Note that even if Dumbledore intended for Snape to be the master of the Elder Wand, Snape would have met with the same end (as that is exactly what Voldemort believed and why he used Nagini). Too, if Snape knew that Dumbledore meant for him to be the master, because Snape never retrieved the wand and tried to hide it (as the believed master by Voldemort), he would have realized that once Voldemort got a hold of it (which was a given - DH Kings Cross), Snape would be faced with the same test I indicated above. It would simply mean that Snape made the decision before hand and accepted the fate Dumbledore had made possible.

Nonetheless, if Harry understood Dumbledore correctly, then Dumbledore did not intend for Snape to be the master: "Aren't you listening? Snape never beat Dumbledore! Dumbledore's death was planned between them! Dumbledore intended to die undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him!" (DH Flaw in the Plan). Thus he merely intended for Snape to have it in hand. However, Dumbledore it would seem, for whatever reason, neglected to give Snape that information. This too would have no impact on Voldemort believing Snape to be the master and thus Snape would still be faced with the test.
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
I don't think that JKR ever mentioned it, but I have grown so used to the idea of his unrequited romantic emotions I didn't even consider that might be the case. It is definitely food for thought, although it seems a little contrary to the idea of 'always'.

Originally Posted by Zgirnius: I don't think it has to be either/or. There is nothing inconsistent between retaining feelings for Lily, and also wanting to be understood by Harry. That he has always and will always love Lily, does not mean he must never change in any other way.

I respect your opinion. However, doesn't that presuppose that Snape was able to dismiss at least some of his loathing for James in order to see past the feelings he had in the first six books of the series which did not allow him to see Harry as anything other than James' son? That is, Snape had always had the same emotions for Lily, so it would seem, that any change in regard to Harry could not be based solely on his emotions for Lily. Something else had to have changed - something that drove his feelings about Harry himself.

Snape had not seen Harry throughout DH and had no idea what Harry had accomplished. The last we heard from Snape as he fled the school in HBP, was that he believed Harry to be 'just like his filthy father' (Flight of the Prince). Snape's final act during his interaction with Harry, was to give Harry a blistering whip across the face with a curse (HBP Flight of the Prince). Thus, I am at a loss to understand what fundamental change took place in Snape that would allow him to see Harry distinctly. In other words, what occurred during the course of DH that caused Snape to garner respect for James and thus, Harry, to the point where it became imperative to him that Harry understand him and his motivations?

I voted that Snape came to care for all of the Malfoys. I always thought that the Spinners End chapter showed that Snape had a friendship with them. I also thought that Narcissa's tears affected him. I don't think that Snape would have been able to "fake" his friendship with the Malfoys.

Well, my post is pretty similar to zgirnius... I voted for Lily, Harry and DD as the people Snape cared about most (Lily & DD would top it)... I think he did care about not letting any harm befall Lucius, Narcissa & Draco... he might not have liked who they were but I do think he did feel indebted to Lucius for accepting him, and he does show compassion towards Narcissa & Draco...

In most instances where Snape interacts with McG, I can detect a certain degree of respect and even affection, especially in the way he greets her when she is back from St Mungo's or when he is interacting with her in the "Sacking of Severus Snape" chapter.

I also chose Other because he did care what happened to the students, he saves Katie Bell, "grips chair tightly" on hearing Ginny has been taken to the CoS, protects Ginny, Neville & Luna in DH and probably made a lot of the potions throughout the series which were used by Poppy (like in CoS, end of OoTP) so he does show concern or care for others

Finally, regarding whether or not Severus cared for Harry or not, I know this that he was constantly worried about Harry's safety... no matter what he might have told the world or DD, his actions betray his care, not only this, it matters to him that Harry respects and understands him and he feels angry and even hurt when Harry disrespects him,... hence his reaction IMO at the end of HBP, when Harry calls him a coward, he can't bear the idea of Lily's son calling him one. Considering what Snape himself was going through (felt like being trapped in a burning house like Fang) he was in incredible pain and didn't need someone to call him a coward on top of that, especially if that someone was Harry...
Edit: And WWB if you can't forgive Snape for hitting out at Harry when he is being called a coward just after probably doing the bravest thing in his life till that point, then how would you judge Lupin who "punches" Harry and slams him against the kitchen wall after Harry calls him a coward? In this instance I think Harry was justified in calling Lupin a coward...

I just realized that I truly believe from canon that Snape comes to care about Harry, and it is my interpretation which happens to coincide with some others over here, however I do accept that some others might not see any care at all, I realize this is out of different life experiences and values.
No argument which purports that Snape had no other feeling for Harry other than loathing rings true to me, as it seems to me rather narrow for a character with so much depth, however I also have realized that nothing which I have argued so far seems to have convinced anyone who has negative feelings towards Snape that he did care... I truly think we need to agree to disagree on this matter, because quite frankly it's like running around in circles...

Wow, version six... that's... much.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

No, I don't think so. Severus Snape fell in love with The Dark Arts and Lily Potter. When the Dark Arts (as in voldemort) where going to hunt down Lily, then there was the big dramatic change in his life, he went from the bad to the good. If it hadn't been for Lily, then no, he wouldn't have changed.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

I always thought that Snape was working for Dumbledore.. at least when I began to understand the series better. Well, Snape said that he would do "anything". And he did. He was loyal to Dumbledore what so ever. Even though he treated Sirius like ****- well, just the same way as Sirius treated him, then he wa loyal.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

To begin with, in this death eater group he finally got friends. He became someone, he became a person. He was respected for his talents in the dark arts and finally belonged to something. I think that's something that was very important for Snape.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Well, Snape was bitter. Bitter because he knew that Lily hadn't had to die if she hadn't wanted to protect harry. The reason for that Harry is alive is because Lily died. He can't stand that. And the fact that Neville is alive is the fact that Voldemort didn't go after the Longbottoms. If he had gone after the Longbottoms then Lily would have been alive. That's what matters for Snape. That Lily is alive and happy. Even though he could never have her, then he could at least be happy for what she got, insted of him.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?

Well, I felt exactly the same way as Dumbledore. "you disgust me.". This was incredible selfish of him to ask Voldemort to spare Lily's life! And he was going to do so. Lily hadn't had to die. If only sha had stepped away... creepy.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

He was, just like Rowling described him, like a wounded animal. He had lost the only person in life that he had cared for and had cared for him.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

His major strength is his loyalty and how skilled he is with magic. He is ready to make up for his mistakes but noone can know, no one.. HIs flaws are that he is not capable of showing that he cares abot someone.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

In his own, strange way, yes. As much as he can maybe.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I think that Snape was the closest thing to equal that Dumbledore ever got. When Dumbledore is vulnerable then he summons Snape and he is the only one that knows about his plans. Father figure? Maybe une petite peu, but I think that they are friends and equals. snape was, in my opinion, highly skilled wizard, more advanced than it is said directly in the books.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

It is our choices... yes, indeed. The groupe he hangs around in the Slytherin common room is the main reason that he became a deatheater, imo. But it is a hard question to answere... Slytherin or not? I think that Severus made a choice and he had to live with it.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

Snape was always loyal and he did everything that Puppetmaster Dumbledore told him to do. He fought against Voldemort and convinced Voldemort that he was on his side. That's pretty hard and you have to be very brave to do that! He is a hero because he had a cause and fought for it. He fought for Lily and his son, lived a loveless life just to make up his wrong-doings. He is not hero in the same way as Harry, but he was very brave and loyal and he fought until the very end to help Harry with his tasks.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?


Yes, yes. Harry named his son Albus Severus. You don't name your child after a man you hate! For harry, Severus Snape redeemed himself. And for me too.

Yipee! New thread, new thread! Ol' Sev sure blows through these things:D

Anyway, in the poll, I voted for:

Lily: Of course. He devoted his life to her, he loved her, he was beyond devastated when she died, she was the reason for his turning to work for Dumbledore instead of the Dark Lord...

Lucius: Yes, I do believe he considered Lucius an old friend and one of his first links to the so called "Pureblood Society" that led him to service of the Dark Lord. I think his little twitch at the end of GoF, when Harry blurted Lucius' name to Fudge, shows that he still cared for Lucius in some regard, or was at least concerned about his exposure.

Draco: Draco was one of his house students throughout the books, as well as the son and spitting image of his father, Lucius, Snape's friend. Snape heavily favors Draco, and, imo, showed actual concern about the possibility that Draco might be killed in HBP; he knew that Draco was not capable of killing Dumbledore. Also, I believe that Snape covered for Draco to the Dark Lord after killing Dumbledore; it is possible that Snape even convinced the Dark Lord not to carry out his plan to kill the Malfoys if Draco did not complete the task.

Narcissa: I do think he cared somewhat for her (In fact, before the Snape-Lily plot in DH, I suspected that he might have been in love with her; now, of course, we know that there was only one woman he ever wanted); he could have chosen not to make the Unbreakable Vow, with a pretense that he did not want to plot behind the Dark Lord's back, but he made it, imo, for her, to protect the Malfoy family and because he recognized her devastation at the possible loss of her son.

Dumbledore: I thought his anger at Dumbledore's foolishness after the ring injury showed that he had regard for Dumbledore's life. I think he both respected and cared for Dumbledore, the man who he worked for for so many years, and the man with whom he confided his patronus; that was extremely personal, and, imo, Snape doesn't get personal with people he does not care about.

I do not feel he ever came to care for Harry; Harry was the symbol of his life's hatred and regret, and I do not think that anything he did for Harry was out of genuine concern for him; Jo has even stated that his concern for Harry was soley because he was Lily's son.

I don't think he particularly cared for Minerva, but I do think he respected her on a professional level. I certainly don't think he ever cared about Bella, who sniped at him and resented his apparent closeness to the Dark Lord. Lastly, I do not think he ever cared for the Dark Lord; I believe his motivations in joinng the Death Eaters were wanting to impress Lily and wanting to be a part of something big and poweful, as Jo said.

-LilyPod

Um, I wasn't too sure of what "care for" meant in the poll, so I've covered all the bases, even using it in the loosest sense. That must be why I'm the only one who checked James.
It's my opinion that while Snape hated James Potter with a passion, he still eventually came to view him as someone Lily cared about (use of "Lily Potter" in TPT) and probably at least viewed him as a fellow human being and may in those last couple years have even saved him from Voldemort were that situation to arise and if it was possible.
I have little to nothing to back that last bit up with. It's just a feeling I get (oh, so rational and analytical I am! :lol:)

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Uh, don't know how to define "moved on", so...uh..Moving on....
Hm...would he have turned to the good side? Well, if Lily hadn't been targeted, Snape would have probably remained a Death Eater until the day he died (so maybe a couple months after being branded, given the mortality rate). If Lily had somehow survived the attack on Godric's Hollow, Snape would probably still have remained on the good side, but I think his development would have been either slowed or stopped. Lily was his world. On the hill, she was pretty much his main concern, and when she was taken away, it forced him to take a look at other people. If Lily had survived, there'd be little to stop Severus from being so fixated on her.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I didn't get much of a "father figure" vibe from them, but then again, Dumbledore takes the role of Mentor much more than he does of being a father figure.
What I find interesting is this:

Snape sat down in the chair Harry had so often occupied, across the desk from Dumbledore.

His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him.

I think JKR is trying to draw a parallel between Snape's relationship with Dumbledore and Harry's.



Thanks for the quote, Moriath! :rockon:

'It was he, too, who gave Professor Umbridge fake Veritaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell her Sirius's whereabouts.'

Here we see Snape doing something good for the Order. Pretty cool. :cool:

Harry disregarded this; he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Snape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him.

I think over books 5 and 6, Snape becomes Harry's personal scapegoat ("Snapegoat"?). Harry is used to attributing the worst of motives to Snape's behavior, so I think that made it easier for Harry to blame Snape in particular.

`I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply `But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.'

I always wonder why Dumbledore thought that could be done. If someone spends seven years bullying you, you can't really makes that anger go away, ever. What you can do is not let it stop you from functioning. IMO, Snape gave it a good college try, but it was too much for him to handle when Harry went diving into Snape's private memories-- that particular memory!

*whew*! I went through that entire quote without saying one snarky thing! I think I deserve a cookie! :3

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

If Lily had not died, I think Snape would have been a happier person. I think the worst of his bitterness and inability to be kind to others was not the result of Lily's choice to marry James, but of Snape's own remorse over his role in her death. If she had lived, then I think that guilt would have been far less, because it would be mitigated by the knowledge that Snape's own action helped to keep her safe after he endangered her.

In the long run, too, I would expect them to reconcile (as friends, she was married). She dropped him because she disapproved of his friends, so I presume his betrayal of those friends would find favor in her eyes.

If by 'moving on' we mean finding love with another woman, who knows, that would depend...

Snape turned to the good side when he learned Lily was threatened. If Voldemort never took any interest in the Potters, I expect Snape would probably not have returned. though there are other circumstances I can imagine changing his allegiance.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

In his life Snape has shown the conspicuous presence of characteristics that would suit him for any of the four houses:
Gryffindor - courage, as Dumbledore's spy
Hufflepuff - he was extremely loyal to his first friend, Lily, and hard working as a teacher, Order member, and spy,
Ravenclaw - as a teacher and as the HBP, he demonstrated intelligence and creativity in academic endeavours
Slytherin - he was ambitious and cunning, especially the latter, without which he could not have hoodwinked Voldemort for all those years).
In this sense, his sorting was correct, but any other would have been correct as well.

I do not believe, however, that he would have become a Death Eater if he had been Sorted into any other House.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

Snape made a huge mistake, and was willing to admit it to himself (brave in itself), and do "anything" to make up for it, regardless of the possible cost to himself. All of his (living) friends were Death Eaters, but he gave them up, to join the side of people who looked down on him. As a spy he risked torture and death (and actually did die). By agreeing to Dumbledore's plan to kill him, he also sacrificed his reputation and continued on making the right choices alone, with no support from anyone. These choices make him, to me, the bravest and most admirable character in HP, so I would definitely say he is a hero.

Um, I wasn't too sure of what "care for" meant in the poll, so I've covered all the bases, even using it in the loosest sense. That must be why I'm the only one who checked James.
It's my opinion that while Snape hated James Potter with a passion, he still eventually came to view him as someone Lily cared about (use of "Lily Potter" in TPT) and probably at least viewed him as a fellow human being and may in those last couple years have even saved him from Voldemort were that situation to arise and if it was possible.
I have little to nothing to back that last bit up with. It's just a feeling I get (oh, so rational and analytical I am! :lol:)


I believe it is possible that you might have the right of it. This is something I have always planned to look into one day because I got to wondering if it was possible. As I have said before, when I initially finished the book, I thought the 'look at me' was showing that Snape could finally look at Harry himself and see Lily because he'd come to terms with his "James problem". I had thought that he'd reached the point that Lupin had, where he neither liked or disliked James, but had pretty much left the grudge behind.

Then JKR came out with her Snape loathed Harry at his death statement and that threw everything into a loop again. While I don't see emotional care in hate; I believe that basic respect for a person can co-exist with hate.

I don't discount this theory because I feel that there are things that Snape could have respected about James - apart from the fact that he'd married Lily - and you make a good point in that if Snape treasured Lily, he'd possibly come to agree that she'd made the best choice of husband. JKR has not spoken about this aspect and I think with enough searching one might be able to find evidence that Snape actually respected James.

For example, if Snape was jealous of James' hero status resulting from his Quidditch play, that might be a reason he'd bring it up in a disparaging way. Snape accused James of breaking rules, but Snape broke rules himself as a youngster (canon example - approaching the weeping willow). In another example, Snape referred to James as a coward because it was always '4 on 1' - but in reality canon shows that at least at times it was '2 on 1'. So some of the things Snape said, if known to him as exaggerations, untruths, etc., may merely be a manner of sheilding his respect for the man who ultimately won Lily's heart.

Anyway, it is yet another little investigation I will undertake at some future date, but I think you might be onto something here. :)

# Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think this needs to be broken down into if Lily had not been threatened, and if Lily had not died. I think if Lily had not been threatened because of the Prophecy, Snape would still be a Death Eater until the end. Jo said so too, in an interview shortly after the release.

It was the threat to Lily that sent Snape running to Dumbledore for help, and it's a very interesting question what would have happened if she had survived. Would Snape have remained on the side of the Order, or would he have gone back to Voldemort? I think, based on what we know, it could have gone either way.

# Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

Well, we see that Dumbledore's death was planned (as indeed the majority of fans suspected), so it doesn't change much there. And I don't see that his love for Lily affected his treatment of Sirius, since those were two seperate matters.

# Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Because it was the "cool" thing to do. It would give him power and respect. Jo said he even thought Lily would be impressed by it, although heaven knows why he would be daft enough to think that!

# How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

If anything, it makes his treatment of them worse, because Snape knows what is is like to be alone, unpopular, and unprotected, and because having lost Lily he should have been glad of the chance to get to know her son. Instead he appeared to resent every single thing he did for Harry. This shows, IMO, that his hatred was stronger than his love, even though his love motivated him to heroic actions.

# What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

Going to Dumbledore for help was very sensible in the circumstances. I think it speaks volumes about Snape's feeligns that he had no intention of trying to save Harry or James, but actually bargained with their lives if Voldemort would just spare Lily for him. But he did agree to include them in his petition when he saw that Dumbledore wouldn't go along with it any other way.

# What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

He was angry and remorseful, and he put that remorse to good use in changing sides permanently and agreeing to protect Harry.

# What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

He is intelligent, cunning, and good at deceit - all good attributes for a spy. His major flaws are his inability to see the good in Harry and Neville, and his inability to act with common decency towards the children in his care (IMO of course).

# Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

Absolutely not. He kept his promise, and I think in Snape's mind that promise had been made to Lily herself, but he treated Harry abominably (again my opinion).

# What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I think both. We saw Snape express concern for Dumbledore, and while he often grumbled about Dumbledore's decisions (eg the decision to let Remus teach at Hogwarts), he remained loyal to Dumbledore and obeyed him even when disinclined to do so.

# Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Snape was sorted into Slytherin because he was a Slytherin. It was the house that best suited him.

# There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

Snape showed a cold-blooded bravery in going back to Voldemort and in killing Dumbledore that really impressed me. That's what makes him a hero.

# Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes?

Both yes and no. He died a hero, but he lived as a cruel bully (IMO). His courage does partially redeem him, but it doesn't wipe out the past, mostly because he didn't intend it to. Snape never once showed any sign of regretting the way he treated Harry and Neville. He loathed Harry to the end.

In Harry's?

Yes - I think Harry found Snape's love for Lily to be a particularly powerful factor in forgiving him. I also think this says more about Harry's extreme good nature, than it says about Snape.

I voted that Snape cared for McGonagall. In OotP he actually seemed pleased to see her return from St. Mungos. So, I think he held her in regard. I don't think he felt close to her, but I did think he demonstrated some genuine concern, and perhaps he respected her as a colleague.

I think he did care for the Malfoy family, and he had some kind of relationship with them starting in his Hogwarts days. Narcissa did seem to feel she could come to him when she was worried about Draco. And he always seemed to favor Draco at Hogwarts.

He also seemed to have affection for Dumbledore and was concerned about the ring curse effects on him.

Of course he loved Lily.

That's where his caring ends. He was in charge of and concerned for Harry's safety, but he didn't have any affection or warm regard for Harry, which is what is needed to care about or for someone. Again, I'll use the example of my nasty cat. I couldn't stand her, but I took care of her, even when her health began to decline with age. I felt responsible for her physical care, but I never liked her. That's the difference between providing care and truly caring.

Snape never stopped hating James and then inexplicably transferred that hatred to Harry.

I actually picked Dumbledore, but thinking on it, I am not sure he actually did care about him. Snape saw Dumbledore as a vehicle to bringing down Voldemort, something he could not do on his own. It could be that he was motivated by that when he showed what appeared to be care when Dumbledore's hand was cursed. However, the jury is still out on that imo, so selecting it wasn't altogether wrong.

I overlooked Lucius - I do think Snape had care for him. I think he cared about the image of Lily he had created, so I selected her as well. I think he cared about his mother in the 'other' category. But the person I think Snape cared about most was not listed.

I voted, Lily, Harry, the Malfoys, Dumbledore and McGonagall.

Lily was his insipiration and Harry was her son. He may have resented Harry because he was born to Lily and James but to actively hate him, Lily's son, I am not so sure. I just don't think he would be capable of hating Harry and he would surely care for him because of only one thing. Harry was Lily's child.

I also checked in the Malfoys, and Dumbledore of course.

I felt Snape respected McGonagall and her sense of fairness and maybe care for her a little bit. So she also received a tick.

I voted that Snape cared for Lily, Albus, the Malfoys, Harry, and other. The other is the students at Hogwarts. During his reign in DH, when The Left Behind Trio tried to take the sword, he only gave them detention, rather than making them endure the Cruciatus Curse.

The other is the students at Hogwarts. During his reign in DH, when The Left Behind Trio tried to take the sword, he only gave them detention, rather than making them endure the Cruciatus Curse.

Fine point - not only did he keep them away from the Carrows, the punishment he gave wasn't even a punishment :lol:. He very well knew that sending them into the forest wasn't punishment, it was an adventure :p.

To add to this list of stuff Snape did for the students: He banned Ginny from Hogsmeade. Looks like a punishment at first, but in hindsight, keeping Ginny in the castle was best, since Snatchers were running around, and if someone knew that she had become involved with Harry, they may have used her to lure Harry to them and get the bounty on his head.

To add to this list of stuff Snape did for the students: He banned Ginny from Hogsmeade. Looks like a punishment at first, but in hindsight, keeping Ginny in the castle was best, since Snatchers were running around, and if someone knew that she had become involved with Harry, they may have used her to lure Harry to them and get the bounty on his head.

Wow, I missed that -- good catch :clap:! That was a good thing for him to have done, she would have been in great danger if he hadn't done that.

I didn't see Lupin on the list, yet he save Lupin's life for no apparent self- gain. Was that a random act of Virtue?

-----

I would like to think that Snape did care for Harry. He obviously cared if Harry lived or died. So yes he did care. Did he loathe him? Well, the author says so, even though I didn't read that much as "hatred" towards Harry in the books. My issue is that Snape never really knew Harry- up until the moment he died. So how could he truly loathe a boy he didn't really know? He loathed what of James he saw in him. When he died- he saw Harry's trues nature- the boy who came to his side and looked him in the eyes.

Since Lily died, Snape was frozen emotionally. I like to think that Snape used that anger and resent and self loathing to keep his position in Voldemort's circle, ironically, in order to keep Harry safe. Voldemort sensed all those things about his followers. He saw into their minds and found what he could manipulate to keep them at his beck and call. In Snape - he might have seen the anger and "loathing" he felt towards his muggle father and James as the man who stole what Snape (Voldemort called "desired.") loved. IN GOF "Moody" says to Harry something to the effect of use the tools that ya got. I feel like Snape used the feelings he had as the best recourse towards keeping Harry alive.

I am very curious how different the answers would be to the "care for" questions had Jo not said what she did. It's interesting that some readers like WickedBoy say they thought differently until Jo "explained" outside the novels that Snape loathed Harry.

I didn't see Lupin on the list, yet he save Lupin's life for no apparent self- gain. Was that a random act of Virtue?


I agree, I was looking for his name. (I was also looking for wormtail, but I wasnt going to vote him)

I am very curious how different the answers would be to the "care for" questions had Jo not said what she did. It's interesting that some readers like WickedBoy say they thought differently until Jo "explained" outside the novels that Snape loathed Harry.
I thought it was obvious he hated Harrry. He was never even slightly civil to him.

BTW, I didn't think that anyone was suggesting that Snape didn't do some good acts. Of course he did. But that still isn't the same as having fond or warm feelings for Harry, which is still the difference between being concerned about Harry's safety and caring for him (i.e. liking him or holding him in warm regard). The fact that the word "care" can carry more than one meaning does not change the fact that Snape loathed Harry.

I personally do not see hatred and saying rude things to someone as the same thing. Draco Malfoy spent years bullying Harry and his friends, and yet I wouldn't say Draco hated Harry all the time (end of OotP is debatable). Draco was probably both jealous of the attention Harry always got and carrying a grudge from being snubbed on the train.
Just like "evil", "hate" is a strong word.

Snape's feelings toward Harry are complicated, and therefore difficult to comprehend.

# Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes?

Both yes and no. He died a hero, but he lived as a cruel bully (IMO). His courage does partially redeem him, but it doesn't wipe out the past, mostly because he didn't intend it to. Snape never once showed any sign of regretting the way he treated Harry and Neville. He loathed Harry to the end.

In Harry's?

Yes - I think Harry found Snape's love for Lily to be a particularly powerful factor in forgiving him. I also think this says more about Harry's extreme good nature, than it says about Snape.

I would definitely agree with you on both of these points; Snape, IMO, led an unadmirable life but died in an admirable (and rather pitiable) way. I personally do not see him as redeemed, for all the acts that he committed during his lifetime, but I would understand why Harry would; Harry has a heart the size of Texas and does not hold a grudge against anyone. He is also extremely loving and forgiving towards others.

I must admit I was a little unsettled when Harry decided to name his son after a man who had treated him so horribly all his life, but now I will admit that it makes since; Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and did assist Harry in his quest to defeat the Dark Lord- he did show alot of bravery, and I can see why Harry would want to honor his memory.

Originally posted by wickedwickedboy
But the person I think Snape cared about most was not listed.

Do you mean himself?

-LilyPod

postd by CBW
I thought it was obvious he hated Harrry. He was never even slightly civil to him.

But being civil to soemone does not mean that you hold that person in high regard imo. I mean most don't like their bosses or their superiors and yet they are perfectly civil and very nice to them.:)

Snape was never civil to Harry; that alone imo is not enough to say he never cared for him.

The following statements are my opinion, based on canon as I interpreted it. :)

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

If Lily had not died, Harry would have. Lily, a woman broken with the loss of her husband and child would have been taken by Voldemort and delivered to Snape. Snape would realize that Lily had died inside and would have likely tried to release her to Dumbledore's care. Voldemort would have likely killed Snape for doing so and Lily would have probably joined Remus and Sirius to continue the fight against Voldemort. Perhaps she would have ended up with Sirius or Remus. So in short, if Lily had not died, Snape would have been killed.


Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

I have never liked the idea of Snape being motivated by his emotions for Lily. I really thought of him as a strong, vibrant and manly character prior to DH - his bullying of the children was not good, but it fit with the persona I thought he was. It was a let down for me because it revealed him to be weak (requiring Lily's death to come to terms with right and wrong), cowardly (inability to be self motivated to do the right thing) and a very small man (his behavior at Hogwarts and treatment of the children was not a front). I found it very disappointing.

I always knew he'd planned with Dumbledore to kill him, but his courage to do so was drawn from his emotions for Lily (verified when he immediately stole a photo of her and 1/2 a letter afterward - engendering within me a moment of tremendous sympathy for Sirius and Harry, because Snape knew exactly where to search for it - in Sirius' room from the few personal effects he'd left for Harry) and again, that was disappointing for me personally.

I believe that Snape's hated of Sirius was partially related to Lily. Apart from their merely being enemies, in 7th when Lily fell in love with James, she was necessarily around Sirius more. Sirius was a very funny youth from what we saw, so Lily likely laughed with others at his quips, spoke to him as a friend as they grew closer and eventually, as we saw, came to have a lot of love for Sirius. Thus, Snape, who had lost Lily's friendship was likely jealous of their relationship and Snape was also likely jealous of the fact that Sirius' friendship with Lily continued into adulthood - a Lily that Snape never knew.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Voldemort promised him power and the ability to live in a world where the dark arts flourished. That would have been very appealing to young Snape who was insecure and vulnerable. Snape fell in with his friends who were all desiring to become death eaters for their own reasons, and he shared their stance on blood purity, a superior attitude toward what society called 'half-breeds' and enjoyed hexing and watching his friends using dark magic against other students. He also enjoyed inventing curses, including dark curses, of his own. Thus, what was called for by those willing to serve Voldemort was well within his youthful capabilities. I believe his interests in this regard were furthered by the mentality of the group of youngsters he hung around with. It is likely that they all encouraged one another and eventually, eagerly joined up with the Dark Lord.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Snape suffered emotional trauma as a youth at the hands of his father. When he arrived at Hogwarts, I believe he began mimicking his father in his treatment of those he did not like. Snape, we are told in OOTP was unpopular and he didn't take care of his person; I believe these factors led to an unpleasant time for him while growing up. Snape then went on to be a Death Eater where he would have participated in and watched horrors unlike any he'd ever witnessed during the course of his life. That included maiming, torturing, killing, mass murder...and all of the other terrible things that were a part of being within Voldemort's camp.

As a result of all of that, Snape became the cold and bitter professor that we saw when Harry arrived at Hogwarts. Based on his background, it is understandable that Snape could evolve into such a professor. I believe Snape's treatment of Neville, Ron, Hermione and others resulted from the person he became - based on what was revealed in DH. However, the additional torment he heaped upon Harry spoke to a emotional disturbance outside of his normal behavior. Snape's psyche was deeply affected by his grudge holding, transference, and negation, imo, and resulted in Snape's additional mistreatment of Harry. Snape's emotions for Lily were no match for the hatred and jealousy he held for James and at times Snape was unable to handle it and behaved in an unbalanced manner toward Harry - seeing James Potter in his stead.

This is the first time I have thought of this, but it didn't likely help matters that Harry was named Harry James Potter which would be written on all of his papers and the administrative documents related to students - that was likely icing on the cake for Snape.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?

I believe he did the right thing by going to Dumbledore. Although Snape behaved in a cowardly fashion by not attempting to bring down the Dark Lord himself, going to Dumbledore was the best alternative. However, it is regrettable that the shameful act of delivering the prophecy that would result in the death of a family, was not recognized by Snape.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

Snape did not change characteristically in regard to his actions toward others. He did become loyal to Dumbledore as a result of his enduring emotions for Lily (or the image he had of her) and some of the acts he performed in that regard were admirable.


What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Strengths: endurance, loyalty to his image of Lily's memory, cunning, courage, compassion for a few people.

Weaknesses: obsessive, weak, cruel, unwarranted sarcasm, tendency to enjoy the humiliation of others, insecurity, vulnerability, grudge holding, lack of compassion for many people, jealousy, bullying nature, abusive of power (teaching), quest for power, vindictiveness.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

No.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I am still considering this. It may be that he did come to care for Dumbledore; on the other hand he may have merely seen him as a vehicle for bringing down Voldemort.


Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Yes, he was a Slytherin, through and through. I don't feel the hat would have sorted him elsewhere at any time during his life.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

Snape had enough courage to act as spy. Snape was not a hero in any sense of the word.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?

Harry: I think Harry found some redemption for Snape. I feel he thought he was brave. Harry forgave Snape for the way he had treated him according to JKR. Harry also gave Snape a nod of honor by giving his son Albus the second name of Severus. The latter would indicate to me that Harry was able to let the grudge he'd inherited from Sirius, initially Remus and to his knowlege, his father. I don't think that Harry liked Snape because the man he knew was not a likeable person, further affirmed when JKR added that Harry would never go and speak to Snape's portrait. While Harry knew that Snape had been unable to let the grudge go - and thus still hated him - I believe he merely looked upon that as Snape being a small man. I think Harry felt his father would have let the grudge go, as Lupin had and I think that gave him strength to do the same. In addition, I hope that Harry was able to find that Snape had respect for both he and his father (even if it was not true - I hope he thought so) because I feel that would make his willingness to give Snape the honor he did sensible.

For my part, I am still trying to work out the issue of redemption for Snape. Dumbledore setting him up to be killed and Snape accepting that assessment of his person, could possibly allow for his redemption. However, I am still unsure if that theory is true, but eventually I hope to reach a decision in that regard. The biggest issue for me would be Snape's lack of remorse for James and those killed while he was a loyal death eater. Of lesser importance, but a factor, is his behavior toward others - however, if I resolved the other two issues, that would not likely bar my finding redemption for Snape. His motivation for his good acts is yet another issue - but trivial in the face of his lack of remorse. I am not certain how large a role his motivation will play in the final analysis.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I'm honestly not sure. I think the only way for him to have moved on if she had lived would have been if he was able to see how much she was grieving over the death of her husband and child. By seeing that, he would have realized that he couldn't think of her as his anymore, and realized that he needed to move on and forget about her.

As to the second question, I'm certain that he wouldn't have turned to the good side had she lived. Her death was the thing that pushed him over that line and put him under Albus' employment. Without that tragedy, he would never have changed sides. After all, he hated James and he wasn't too happy about the fact that the person he loved had had a child with his enemy, so the death of James and Harry wouldn't have sparked any sense of remorse in him; and, because of that, he wouldn't have been driven to change sides.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

Well, the "murder" of Albus was planned between the two of them, so I don't think Severus' love for Lily really played a part in it. They knew what Voldemort was planning in regards to Albus, and Albus wanted to die in a more peaceful way than he would have been granted had anyone besides Severus done it- Grayback would have torn him apart, and Bellatrix would have tortured him before she put him out of his misery- so Severus agreed out of respect and love for Albus, and not for Lily.

As far as Sirius is concerned, he did deserve some of the treatment he got from Severus. In POA, Sirius revealed that he was supposed to have been the secret-keeper for Lily and James, but that at the last minute, he convinced them to switch to Wormtail. Severus already loathed Sirius, but that bit of information cemented his hatred for the man even more.

And I can understand why.

Yes, Severus was the one who gave Voldemort the prophecy; but, in his eyes, Sirius is the real reason why Lily was killed. If Sirius had remained secret-keeper, Voldemort wouldn't have gotten the information that would lead him to the Potter's doorstep. Sirius told them in POA that he would have rather died than betray his friends; which means that Voldemort could have done whatever he wanted to him, and he wouldn't have told him where the Potter's were hiding. Sirius himself said that he has good as killed them, so it's logical that Severus would feel the same way.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

One word: Power. Slytherin's are ambitious people, and they thrive on power (just look at the Malfoy family and Voldemort!); and during his school years, Severus was the one who got bullied by the "noble" Gryffindors. Severus was always looking for a way to get back at the people who tormented him as a teenager, and becoming a Death Eater was the perfect way to do it. It allowed him to put his intelliegence and his knack for the Dark Arts to good use, and it allowed him to stick it to those who made his life hell. And that made him feel powerful.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?

I think his reaction was to be expected. The woman he loved was being targeted by Voldemort, and he did the only thing he could do: he went to Albus and asked him to protect her. And I expected him to care for only her well-being. I mean, James tormented him in school, so I never expected Severus to care about the fact that James was also being targeted. And Harry- well he was the child of James Potter, so I never expected Severus to care about his well-being either.

But, when Albus told him that he was being selfish, he amended his request and asked Albus to protect all three of them. Even though he loathed James Potter and disliked Harry for being his son, he knew that Lily would want them to be protected as well- so, out of love for her, he swallowed his pride and asked Albus to protect them all.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

Hmm... now this is a question of great debate. I think, in his own way, he did come to care for Harry. In the Prince's Tale chapter of DH's, Severus gets upset when he learns that he had been protecting Harry just so that he could die in the end, and Albus asks him if he's come to care for Harry after all. Now, I know that Severus' answer was to create a Patronus to symbolize his love for Lily, but, I noticed that he never really answered Albus' question.

Yes, for some readers, the Patronus was answer enough. It meant that he still loved Lily and that he was upset because he had been led to believe that he was doing this for her, but then came to learn that he was doing it so that Harry could be killed in the end anyway. But, I felt that the question was still left unanswered. He never addressed it fully, IMO.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

I think Severus had qualities that would have suited him well in three of the four Houses. The Houses being Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Slytherin. He was courageous, which could have placed him in Gryffindor; he was extremely intelligent, which would have worked well with Ravenclaw; and he was ambitious, thus making him suitable for Slytherin. In my opinion, he could have been sorted into any of those three Houses, but, in the end he was placed in Slytherin.

Why? Well, it all comes down to choice.

Severus' mother was in Slytherin House when she was at school, and she likely told him all the good things about the House (yes, I'm sure there are some good things about it :p) and he likely decided early on which house he wanted to be placed in when he got to Hogwarts. It's just like Harry's sorting. Harry was being told all about the evil wizards that flitted through Slytherin (like Voldemort), and so he garnered his own opinion of the house before he got there. Thus causing him to beg the hat to place him in any house but Slytherin. He chose his path, and so did Severus.

As for the second question, I don't think he would have made the same choices if he had been placed somewhere else. If he had been placed in Gryffindor, he would have been able to remain friends with Lily, and it's possible that James would have refrained from picking on him because they were in the same House (and I can't see James tormenting the members of his House like that; no matter how much of a prick he was). If things had turned out that way, he likely would have been less bitter and he would have had friends who would stick up for him and help steer him towards better decisions.

Ravenclaw would have been the same way. He could have remained friends with Lily, James likely would have overlooked him (because Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff seem to be united together and Slytherin is the oddball) and he would have had people around him who could help him use his intelliegence for something good.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?

Severus has always been my favorite character in the series, ever since we were first inroduced to him at the Welcoming Feast in SS, and I've never held anything against him- so technically he never needed to redeem himself in my eyes. I was always able to look past Harry's perspective and see more of what was going on than he could (even though it's told through his eyes), and so I never viewed anything Severus did as being evil or suspicious. I'm very astute, I pick up things easily, and I'm very good at piecing things together- so, things like Albus' murder never made me think Severus was really on Voldemort's side. I understood all of Severus' actions.

Harry, on the other hand, never saw Severus in a good light, so Severus did need to redeem himself in his eyes. Which I think he did in the end. When Harry viewed his memories, he saw how much Severus loved his mother and he was able to understand Severus better than anyone else probably ever has (except, perhaps, Albus). Albus has always said love is the most powerful force in the world, and he was right. Harry was able to forgive Severus because of love. Love and forgiveness go hand-in-hand. If you can love, you can forgive. Harry's ability to love meant that he was able to forgive Severus for everything he had done.

He saw that, while Severus was the one who gave Voldemort the prophecy, he ended up seeing the error of his ways when he realized the love of his life was being targeted; and he did something about it! He went to Albus and tried to make things right. It wasn't completely successful, but he was able to help prevent Harry from dying; after all, Voldemort wouldn't have offered Lily a choice if Severus hadn't asked him, and that would have meant that Harry wouldn't have been protected by her sacrifice. And he saw Severus agree to watch over the child of his enemy, and to work against Voldemort, all because he loved Lily.

Love condemned him, but in the end, love redeemed him.

1. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I would like to think so. He would have not moved on at once, but after some time, I would hope so. I don't think he would have turned to the Light at the time he did, if it weren't for Lily, but later, I would like to think, he might have become disillusioned with the original ideas he had joined for and realize the almost slave like postion every death eater would become over time and still come over to the Light.


2. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

It doesn't; he loved Lily and for him, she became his insipiration and when she died because of him, he still used the memory of her to act his part to bring down Voldemort. Nothing was too horrible to do and nothing was too little to ignore. He did everything to redeem himself by atoning for his sins.

3. What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

He stopped there emotionally, I think. He never even thought of moving on, because imo he felt he never deserved it.

4. Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Yes. I would like the idea that there is both good and bad in all Houses and Snape in Slytherin and Peter in Gryffindor make me feel what Dumbledore said, 'It is your choices and not your abilities that make you what you are' (roughly) and while Houses determine the abilities mostly, it is the choices that ultimately make us or destroy us.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Lupin, I think Snape did care about saving others, he IMO does feel guilty about letting people die during his days as a DE and probably loathes himself, hence he is willing to risk his cover to save those he can..., that to me does show care anyway I have already voted for the "Other" option which should include Lupin....


Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

By Lily not dying, I am assuming the case where the Longbottoms are targetted...
If Lily's family had not been targeted it is hard to say what would have happened. He probably would have gone on to become even darker and probably died an early death, Lily was the reason he was "saved", spiritually I mean...On the other hand, I think if he could still feel love for a woman enough to risk his life for her, perhaps circumstances might have made him turn... I like how DD says he rejoined the side of good, so perhaps Severus might have eventually realized being a DE was not his true identity, but he would probably have met a Regulus Black like death.... I am really glad he decided to ask DD for help, this ensured his own safety...

Actually, I feel that there is a stronger possibility of him turning to the "good" side if he had joined the DEs to make himself impressive to Lily, he would realized sooner or later that this was not the right way to gain Lily's love and respect back....I think the very fact that he had love for Lily in him and it was part of who he was, he would eventually have turned no matter what, but there is a strong possibility of him dying as well...

The question of whether he would have moved on, it is quite obvious Snape hasn't moved on at the point where he begs DD to protect Lily... Perhaps he would have moved on, but Lily seems to be intrinsically a part of him that I don't think he would have completely forgotten her, even if he ever had the chance of being romantically happy, a part of him would always love Lily and cherish her and I think be willing to even give up his life for her even under such circumstances


Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

It completely tore my heart when I read about his motivations, I also thought it was absolutely fascinating and wanted to give him a good hug...

The "murder" of Dumbledore I believed for probably five seconds, even then I was trying to rationalize that there must have been some reason for Snape to kill DD, I actually even thought that perhaps DD had betrayed Snape in some way (which was almost true though not quite in the way I thought it would be), but then I re-read an noticed "Severus... please...", and I knew it had to be pact between them, from then on, there was never any doubt in my mind where his true loyalties lay, despite George's ear, and the DL Ascending chapter.

Regarding Sirius, I think the loathing was mutual, I also believe that Snape may have let go of his loathing for Sirius, had Sirius given some semblance of respect to Snape... which he clearly didn't... Sirius IMO always thought Snape was beneath him in school and continued to think so, even when he is aware that Snape is doing the most dangerous job for the Order. Sirius was probably also angry about Snape becoming more important than him in DD's eyes (or so he thought) and prevented Harry too from giving Snape a little respect... Snape IMO only retaliated in kind...


Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Snape was accepted by his house members immediately, this was something truly big as he had never felt that he belonged to any place... I think he was probably fascinated by the Dark Arts (but not just to use it but also I think to combat it) he was fascinated for the sake of research IMO, because he had a scientific bent of mind IMO....I don't think he every really cared about blood purity but accepted it and perhaps even berated others to "fit in" and not become a pariah in his own house. Also, young Snape was extremely vulnerable and damaged and very weak, and thought the best way to impress Lily was to become impressive and "bad". In his teenage mind, if Lily was attracted to someone who was a bully, and someone who had cleverly tricked people into believing that they had been noble in saving Snape from "whatever is there in the shrieking shack", and someone who constantly broke rules like going out at night etc... that perhaps being "powerful" and "popular" would attract Lily to him... He couldn't see the difference between the "pranks" played by the Marauders and what his friends were up to. I think he was a lot like the Lupin of his crowd...

I think all these factors led him to join the DEs. I also think that Voldemort was deceptive in the way he recruited his followers and many didn't realize his true agenda and the extent to which he would go to gain power. I think many people didn't truly know the extent of Voldemort's complete disregard for life...They were simply lured by the promise of power...


How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

I think Snape doesn't suffer fools gladly and he hates laziness and sloppiness, which is what I thought before DH and he can be exceedingly caustic about it. My views don't change for the case of Neville though, but it does for Harry. It certainly explains Snape calling Harry arrogant from time to time, and going "ape" about it, because it must seem to Snape that Harry is growing to be just like his father rather than darling Lily... :D
I also think that he was extra hard on Neville, Harry and others because he knew of what was to come and he knew there could be no room for error. I also found it interesting that he rather intently bend over Dean Thomas' work when Umbridge is inspecting, because from JKR's site we know that Dean Thomas' dad was killed by DEs in the first war... perhaps Snape was making sure that Dean was strong enough to fight in the second war, just like Harry & Neville

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targeted with the prophecy?

I don't think his request to spare Lily, was well received by Voldemort and quite likely that he may have been punished. I am not even sure that he expected Voldemort to kill the family in question, and I think he felt it futile to ask him to spare them, instead he asks to spare the only person who could possibly have a chance of being saved, Lily. As I don't know what was truly going on in his mind, I don't wish to judge him on this.
But the fact that he went to DD, the leader of the "enemy" camp to warn him about Lily was IMO a very brave thing to do... he is not only daring to betray the DL, he is risking his own life for a woman who no longer loves him and is married and about to have someone else's child... He is willing to give and do anything to save her and ultimately her family, that is commendable, so even if he had this despicable thought of letting Lily survive instead of her son, he more than makes up for it by risking his life for the entire family for over a year till the sad events of Godric Hollow

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

I think Lily's death completely broke him, and yet at the same time gave him the strength to become a better and stronger person. I agree that young Snape was weak and easily swayed, however the Snape who warns DD, eventually turning spy was the beginning of the strong Snape that we come to see in the beginning of the series... Snape at that point starts being true to his love and this is what guides his major actions and decisions later in life... Regarding his actions after Lily's death were commendable and he never strayed from the path and worked sincerely and tirelessly to protect Harry and in his own best possible way try and teach Harry so that Harry may eventually be capable of facing Voldemort


What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
I think Snape's major strengths are unwavering loyalty, compassion, sense of duty, awesome work ethic, dedication, genius, cunning, resourcefulness, man of strong principles (after turning to the good side), incredible courage and his tremendous ability to love.
Major flaws are his inability to resolve emotions and show his love and compassion

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

Yes, in his own snapish way :D for the umpteen reasons I & others have stated before


What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I think for Snape, DD was a substitute father figure and I think he learned from DD as much as he learned from Lily and did eventually come to care about DD a lot... I think willing to agree to kill DD is a statement for the high regard Snape has for DD. With respect to DD, I think DD did come to eventually look upon Snape as a friend and confidante, if not son... I think DD took a lot for granted with Snape, and I think he wouldn't have done this, had he not come to look upon him as son and come to care about him...

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
Umm, I actually don't like the sorting system (it shouldn't have been there in the first place), especially since such a major decision is being placed in the hands of 11 year olds... I think Snape was more interested in intellect so he would have done well in Ravenclaw... I also think that he had a half-baked idea about the houses, and didn't understand the true implications of being in a particular house meant. While in most schools, there are house systems, it doesn't divide the school so completely (at least not my school), here it seems that if you are sorted into a particular house, you are pretty much divided and can never truly be united. I think Snape's life would have been much different had he been sorted into Ravenclaw/ Gryffindor/Hufflepuff... he wouldn't have become a DE (something which I think he truly regretted ever having been) I think Snape realizes this when DD comments on "sorting too soon", he is stricken because he realizes what could have been had he not been a Slytherin...

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

He willingly lay down his life for his love...but more than this, his bravery was the different kind, it wasn't about flashing his wand and going to battle, it was the kind where he was in constant danger of losing his life for the last few years of his life... yet he returned again and again because he was dedicated to his mission. I agree with Harry that Snape was probably the bravest man in the series and that Harry ever knew (though ironically Harry realizes this only after his death), furthermore he was risking his life for Love, not for fame or glory (many warriors in epics and in literature look upon dying in war as "glorious"), he had no expectations of gaining any respect and honor from the side of the "good" as he knew doubt had and would always be cast on his loyalty and he also probably had a shrewd idea that he might die before he was exonerated, that I think was the bravest thing. To keep on fighting for the side of good when everyone had turned against him and the only company he had in his last year were portraits...

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?

Yes for me and certainly yes for Harry...

I didn't see Lupin on the list, yet he save Lupin's life for no apparent self- gain. Was that a random act of Virtue?

I respect your opinion, but I don't feel that Snape's saving Lupin showed that he cared about him. I believe that that Snape disliked Lupin as he did all of the Marauders (based on his treatment of, and statements to, Tonks in HBP (Snape Victorious, Brit Ed. Pag. 153). However, imo, either Snape's attempt during the raid was to protect Harry (in case the lad on Lupin's broom was Harry and if Snape allowed the Death Eater to kill Lupin, it might result in the death of the lad) or, JKR specifically elected to show Snape saving Lupin from death in order to demonstrate that Snape spoke the truth when he said he no longer watched those die that he could save. In the latter case, imo, it would also mean that Snape included werewolves in his assessment of “people” and had dropped the prejudice he had shown toward them (as well as muggle borns) earlier in the series. I like to think the second option is the correct one. :)



I am very curious how different the answers would be to the "care for" questions had Jo not said what she did. It's interesting that some readers like WickedBoy say they thought differently until Jo "explained" outside the novels that Snape loathed Harry.

Since you brought up my name, speaking for myself, the thought that Snape cared for Harry (in an emotional sense) never crossed my mind. What I thought was that Snape and had finally let go of his grudge against James (and thus Harry) to the point where he was able to look at Harry and acknowledge Lily was his mother as much as James had been his father. My impression was that Snape neither liked or disliked James and Harry, but had recognized that he was as responsible for the formation of his grudge as James had been in inciting it (and visa versa). However, JKR's statement did indicate that I was mistaken and that she meant for us to understand that Snape was not seeing Harry at all because he still loathed him (and his father – as that was the basis for his hatred) and thus, was merely looking at the eyes - as if they actually belonged to Lily.

But note that once I reached the epilogue, I began considering that all of the talk about confunding was a clue that Snape had actually confunded Harry with his 'look at me'. :lol: I thought perhaps that was what Harry was referring to when he touched his scar and it didn't hurt because he'd been confunded by Snape rather than Voldemort. But I have read zillions of fantasy/magical/sci fi series and very often they end with a wild twist - so I thought that might be what JKR was doing.

In reality JKR's explanation was more realistic to me than my original thoughts. As you see, my interpretations were all over the place. I was very pleased, as I always am, to understand JKR's true intent. :)

erm... I see that Voldemort got a vote in the poll. In which respect did Snape care for Voldemort?

I respect your opinion, but I don't feel that Snape's saving Lupin showed that he cared about him. I believe that that Snape disliked Lupin as he did all of the Marauders (based on his treatment of, and statements to, Tonks in HBP (Snape Victorious, Brit Ed. Pag. 153). However, imo, either Snape's attempt during the raid was to protect Harry (in case the lad on Lupin's broom was Harry and if Snape allowed the Death Eater to kill Lupin, it might result in the death of the lad) or, JKR specifically elected to show Snape saving Lupin from death in order to demonstrate that Snape spoke the truth when he said he no longer watched those die that he could save. In the latter case, imo, it would also mean that Snape included werewolves in his assessment of “people” and had dropped the prejudice he had shown toward them (as well as muggle borns) earlier in the series. I like to think the second option is the correct one.

Well, I was kidding about Lupin, actually. But if they can put Voldemort on the list.... Anyway I agree with you, Snape spoke the truth when he said he no longer watched anyone die if he could save them. :)

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think he would have still loved her his whole life, but I believe he would have eventually let go of the bitterness and moved on. And yes, I do believe Severus Snape has the potential and capability of overthrowing the wretched path he had taken and making the right choice all on his own. I base this opinion on his character as presented in the crucial moments of the books, where he is shown to be able to take great risks, face danger without fear and save lives. I think his immense strength of will and character and his bravery would have enabled him to do the right thing. This is just how I see Severus.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Because he had lost verything od value to him. Adopting totally destrictive behaviour is typical in this situation, I think.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?

I think they are perfectly understandable. He was desperate to save Lily's life, so he did ALL he could, all he could think of, in order to do it.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

I think they're nothing short of admirable, as he had nothing, he was heartbroken and practically dead inside. Yet he chose to act, not to let Lily's death be in vain. Even though she was dead, he put her first, even before his own pain and suffering.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

Yes, though for the most part against his will.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I believe they were friends. In DH we have a few scenes which show them to care for each other - specifically the Yule Ball scene and the healing of the ring curse scene. I actually saw them as equals, but for Dumbledore's secrecy.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Yes, he fits perfectly in Slytherin, in my opinion. I don't believe the House influence someone's choices or chracater all that much.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

I see Snape as self-sacrificial. Agreeing to kill Dumbledore was such an act. Agreeing to protect Harry even though his life was empty and I'm sure he wanted nothing more than to die was another. Keping his word all those years and enever deviating from what Dumbledore had asked him to do, going to the Death Eaters in 1995, knowing that his chances of surviving his encounter with Voldemort were slim at best - these are also self-sacrificial acts. For me, this is his bravery - doing what he knows he has to do, keeping to his word, even in the face of death, and even when there are easier options.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?

Yes to both. I think it is clear from Harry's actions and words that he fully forgave and understood Snape. It's sad that Snape didn't live to know about it.

I don't honestly think he cared for Voldemort after Lily's death, but I suspect he probably did "care" for him when he was a DE. Snape seems to me to be someone who is intensely loyal to a friend or anyone who shows some respect towards him or basically just accepts him... To be accepted into what Snape thought was a very powerful organization, and to be treated with importance, could have made him grateful to Voldemort. I think DD's description of what Snape does on hearing the prophecy is rather interesting...

He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. DD suggests that Severus was concerned for his master's safety...
I just noticed that most people very automatically assumed that Severus would know that Voldemort would kill the family mentioned in the prophecy
but I noticed that prophecy talks about "vanquishing" the Dark Lord, not killing him, so Severus might have thought that he was simply warning his master... he had no idea how the prophecy was to be interpreted, I don't think he expected Voldemort to decide to kill the entire family either.... had Voldemort decided to do this and chosen the Longbottoms, probably Snape wouldn't have thought it worthwhile to risk his own life to save a family he didn't care about... but to risk his life for Lily seemed worthwhile to him

Anyways whatever "care" he might have felt for Voldemort I am sure vanished once Voldy interpreted the prophecy, and I actually didn't even vote for Voldemort

I just noticed that most people very automatically assumed that Severus would know that Voldemort would kill the family mentioned in the prophecy
but I noticed that prophecy talks about "vanquishing" the Dark Lord, not killing him, so Severus might have thought that he was simply warning his master... he had no idea how the prophecy was to be interpreted, I don't think he expected Voldemort to decide to kill the entire family either....

I respect your opinion, but what do you believe that Snape thought the Dark Lord would do when he heard the prophecy? Keep in mind that Voldemort was at that time killing Order members left and right who were attempting to 'vanquish' him.

True, I was simply thinking out loud, my reasoning stems from my assumption that in the first war, I doubt if Snape did much, the prophecy was probably the highlight of his DE career as far as Voldemort was concerned, Lily was probably going to be the "reward" for Snape telling the prophecy, and I also detected a hint of shock when he warns Dumbledore that he plans to hunt them down and kill them all, it's as if he never thought that Voldemort would be so ruthless in annihilating even a hint of opposition... We don't know when Snape joined Voldy, it might have been right after school or perhaps two years later, he might have been training for a healer before that, we don't know it's up to our imaginations what we think might have happened during the first war... To me, whatever knowledge I have of sev's character it seems as if he truly didn't realize the extent of Voldemort's ruthlessness, just like Regulus... IMO Snape & Regulus were parallels...actually I think DD & Snape were parallels of sorts as well... I think Snape was just as disgusted with himself for ever having been a DE and for being so easily fooled into joining Voldy, just as DD hated himself for being in love with Grindelwald and turning a blind eye to the ugliness of his ideas and the terrible consequence of that... But anyway that's just my opinion.... Sirius himself says that Voldemort kept his agenda well hidden and many of his initial followers had been mislead into joining him...

I'm having a lot of trouble voting on this poll. Snape was always so guarded in the books that I find it hard to tell what his true feelings were for a lot of people.

and I also detected a hint of shock when he warns Dumbledore that he plans to hunt them down and kill them all, it's as if he never thought that Voldemort would be so ruthless in annihilating even a hint of opposition...

Respecting your opinion, but am I understanding you to mean you feel that Voldemort and Snape considered the prophecy as merely a 'hint of opposition'?

Voldemort was killing those who were posing absolutely no opposition to him at that time (muggles, some muggle born wizards). Even if he did consider it a 'hint' of opposition, the hint would be more opposition than he was receiving from muggles. So why would Voldemort do anything other than kill the child? Snape knew Voldemort had no compunction about killing groups of muggles, and that is the case even if Snape was not a Death Eater -everyone knew that. For the record, in light of the contents of the prophecy, I would respectfully disagree that either Voldemort or Snape considered the prophecy a mere 'hint of opposition'. The prophecy pinpointed the child as his major opponent.

I would respectfully disagree that Regulus and Snape did not know the extent of Voldemort's ruthlessness. That would presuppose that Regulus considered the horrible treatment Kreacher received at the hands of Voldemort an atrocity, but the torture and killing of numerous Order members, large groups of muggles and muggle born wizards and witches 'no big deal'. The same for Snape who had no intention of betraying Voldemort or leaving the Death Eaters until Lily was targeted. Was Lily being targeted worse than the aforementioned atrocities to Snape? Essentially that would mean Snape felt that the horrendous killings Voldemort was undertaking were not ruthless, but targeting Lily was. I would conclude that both Regulus and Snape knew and understood, to a large extent, the ruthlessness of Voldemort's character.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
No. If Lily had not been targeted and died, Snape would have remained a Death Eater and gone on serving the Dark Lord and the Dark Arts. Fear of Lily's death and a personal interest in keeping her alive fueled Snape's decision to work for the Order and Dumbledore, not an actual moral belief in fighting for muggle rights. If the Dark Lord had decided that Neville was the boy to which the prophecy referred, or Harry had been born just a day later, Snape would have remained a Death Eater for the rest of the Dark Lord's first reign, and he would have rejoined with his friends Mulciber, Avery, and Lucius when the Dark Lord came back, continuing to support and work for the organization that promoted mass killing. If Lily had not died, I do not think Snape would have "moved on"- when we see him with DD in The Prince's Tale, it has been four or five years since he has even seen her, much less interacted with her, and he has not moved past her; he is still very much in love with her. He probably would have longed for her for the rest of his life; I doubt he would have gotten with another woman.

Snape is revealed to have been and acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
Well, it gave alot of insight as to his work for Dumbledore, so the "murder" wasn't really a "murder," was it? I was able to understand the planning behind it- that DD was dying anyway and that Snape had been ordered to kill him as to maintain his position as a spy within the Dark Lord's highest and closest ranks. In fact, we were given conclusive explanations as to all of Snape's actions- going to the graveyard in GoF, notifying the Order that Harry was at the Ministry in OotP, killing DD and running off with Draco at the end of HBP, and the like. As for his treatment of Sirius, I understand now that it was not so much the prank Sirius played on Snape as jealousy that fueled Snape's animosity with Sirius. Presumably, when Lily began hanging around and eventually dating James in 6-7th year, she became close to Sirius as well, and we can tell from the letter that Harry finds that they were very close friends. I can imagine that Snape was very jealous of and angry at Sirius for daring to be close to Lily, as well as James, so he treats Sirius with contempt and petty, spiteful remarks about how he can't be useful to the Order and such. He knows how to get under Sirius' skin, and he maximizes the oppurtunities to anger and belittle Sirius as a way to make Sirius pay for his crime (being friends with Lily).

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
We know from GoF, OotP, and DH that Snape came to school with a preconcieved impression of Slytherin and it's greatness (presumably from his mother, who was also a Slytherin) and a wide array of knowledge and skill in the Dark Arts arena, more so than some of the seventh years; we also know that he was immersed in the Dark Arts, and even as a adult who has officially switched sides, he still speaks of the Dark Arts fondly. I think Snape became a Death Eater because of his love for the Dark Arts, coupled with a desire for power and acceptance, in a gang. We see that Mulciber, Avery, and Lucius were willing to befriend him despite his status as a half-blood, and that he was accepted within the ring of Death Eaters as well, probably for his brilliance and talent for both Dark Magic and hexes, some self-invented. Snape was obviously hungry for this kind of acceptance; he longed to fit in after a childhood of being an outcast, so he joined the Dark Lord. I also think his realtionship with his father may have incited personal hatred towards muggles, just as the Dark Lord's did. I do not think, however, that he himself truly believed muggleborns to be inferior; his use of the mudblood slur was purely because it was expected of him within his gang unless he wanted to be shunned. He was friends with an cared about Lily, after all; I can't say that hatred for muggleborns really played into his decision to become a Death Eater.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
Though DH brought Snape's hatred of James to an entirely different level, I can't say that it changed my opinion of his treatment of Harry and Neville. i still find his treatment of Harry absolutley unjustified and wrong; though I percieve now that Snape looked upon Harry as a symbol, a symbol of the relationship that he hated, and that looking at Harry was daily torture for him, I still cannot approve of the way he dedicated six years of his life to bullying and belittling Harry to punish him for his father's crimes, for his own personal pleasure in tormenting Harry, who, to Snape, was nothing more than an extension of James, who, as we now know, married the woman Snape loved. As for Neville, I find Snape's treatment of him absolutely atrocious. Neville lost his parents to the establishment Snape used to support, and it is clear that Snape is not at all sorry about this; i fact, he takes a cruel pleasure in putting Neville down just because he can. I still cannot wrap my mind around the idea that Snape worsened hsi treatment of Neville after he found out that he was Neville's greatest fear- that is just malicious. I think that there may be some truth to the assertion that Snape hates Neville for not being the Boy Who Lived, because if he had been, Lily would not have died.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targetted with the prophecy?
I was very chilled when Snape, in his silence, confirmed that he hoped to exchange James and Harry for Lily, that it did not matter if they, an innocent man and child, died as long as Lily was safe. I think this proves that he was, in fact, not at all opposed to the aims and principles of the Dark Lord's regime; rather, he was simply motivated by self-interest and perhaps delusion in believing that Lily would be his once James and Harry were conveniently out of the way. I think he showed a certain degree of selfishness here; had he truly loved Lily, he would have wanted to keep her family safe so that she could be happy, but he does not. He shows a complete disregard for her feelings; his sole focus was her life and not those in it.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?
I think his actions after Lily's death were brave; he knew that if the Dark Lord discovered his secret, that he was a double-crosser, that he would be murdered on the spot. After the Dark Lord fell, he was free to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle at Hogwarts, and I think he embraced that, as well as the daily chance to transfer his own suffering to his students, with the knowledge that DD would not fire him. I don't think Lily's death really affected his character much in a postive way; in fact, I think it made him more bitter and savage, particularly where Harry was involved. I also think her death and his role in it caused him to take less responsibility for his actions; he is always looking for someone to blame for her death.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I think they treated each other as equals and respected each other; I can't say I see them sharing crumpets over tea and discussing their favorite articles in Transfiguration Today. Snape worked for DD, and was devoted to him and his orders, and in turn, DD vouched for Snape during the trial in GoF and gave him a comfortable place to live and a job where he was given free reign over his students. In that sense, they both enabled and served the other.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
Yes, I think Snape belonged in Slytherin. Despite his nerve and brilliance, above all, Snape is cunning, ambitious, and self-motivated; he will use any means to "achieve his ends," no matter if those means are cruel or immoral. He is not a fair and just Hufflepuff (this is obvious in his treatment of his students), and he is not a courageous, reckless, and heart-on-your-sleeve Gryffindor. Rather, he is a mastermind, who excells in spying and Occlumency, and can keep everyone fooled. While all those traits scream Slytherin, I can see the case for Ravenclaw as well. Had he not been sorted into Slytherin, I think he still may have made the decison to join the Dark Lord, as Peter did, after Hogwarts. His passion for the Dark Arts was ingrained before he got to school, as was his desire for acceptance within a larger group. However, it is likely that he would not have been as influenced by Lucius, Mulciber, and Avery if he had not been sorted into Slytherin; perhaps he would not have joined the Dark Side. It is hard to say, but I really do feel that he is a Slytherin, through and through.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
Snape's actions were brave as he worked against the Dark Lord, knowing that discovery meant death. He had immese nerve every time he came face-to-face with the Dark Lord, knowing that the slightest hint or slip-up would cost him his life. His lies and deception of the greatest Legilimens were very brave indeed. However, he is not a hero; at the end of the day, he is still a very nasty and self-motivated man, who is defined by his role as a spy, a poser who never truly proclaimed allegiance to one side or the other. Heroes have moral courage; they fight for what they believe in. Snape never believed that killing was wrong; he had no problem with the Dark Lord until Lily was targeted; he would not have batted an eye if Frank, Alice, and Neville had been killed, and I see not evidene that he actually came to oppose the Dark Lord's actions, or that he actually took part in fighting for the Greater Good; everything he did was soley based on a life-long obsession with Lily. Heroes, like Harry, oppose evil and save others out of the goodness of their hearts. Snape was very coldhearted and did not generally care much for others or their suffering. His actions in DH (getting the sword to Harry and giving him DD's information) were useful and even admirable, but not heroic. There are many characters in Harry Potter- Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius, James, Lily, to name a few, who I would endow with the title "hero" before I would endow Snape with it.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?
In Harry's eyes, it seems that Snape has been redeemed; there is really no higher honor than to name a child after someone. Harry, with the huge heart he has, was able to brush off Snape's terrible treatment of him and appreciate him for all that he did to help DD and protect Harry.

In my eyes, Snape is not redeemed. I find remorse crucial in redemption, and I see no regret on his end for his awful treatment of Harry, his service to the Dark Lord before Lily was targeted, his willingness to send James and Harry to die, or his long career as a bullying teacher. In particular, I find his ease in insulting and belittling James with apparent pleasure quite chilling; it proves that he has no regret for playing a role in James' death. In order for him to be redeemed in my eyes, he needed to show actual opposition to the Dark Arts, and we do not get that from him; he acted for the Light Side soley on his obsession with Lily.

All of the above are just my opinions, of course:)

-LilyPod

posted by WWB
The same for Snape who had no intention of betraying Voldemort or leaving the Death Eaters until Lily was targeted. Was Lily being targeted worse than the aforementioned atrocities to Snape? Essentially that would mean Snape felt that the horrendous killings Voldemort was undertaking were not ruthless, but targeting Lily was. I would conclude that both Regulus and Snape knew and understood, to a large extent, the ruthlessness of Voldemort's character.

Yes, what you say is right; Jo says he would not have turned to the Light when he did, if it weren't for Lily. He turned because, while he was a death eater in every sense of the word; he could not ignore the fact he was responsible for Voldemort planning the death of a girl whom he loved.

But the fact he did have in his heart to give up everything he thought was most important, for the love he had for Lily, even though she had moved on and was very happy, tells me that he did have a huge spark of something good in him. imo

That spark slowly changed Snape from where he was not really bothered about the atrocities Voldemort was committing to trying his best to save every life, if he could.

That love he had for Lily was neither obsesesive nor possesive imo. That was pure love that helped him to rise to the higher levels of humanity imo.

And that spark would have changed him, even if Lily were alive and Voldemort had not targetted the Potters imo.

Though the change would not have come then, it would have come in the future and I believe that Snape would have turned away from Voldemort and his pointless killings. Whether he would turn to Dumbledore, I don't know, but tur5n away from Voldemort, I think so, for sure.

I would like to post a reminder of: REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021)

Remember to support your comments about Snape's character with examples from the book.

Yes, what you say is right; Jo says he would not have turned to the Light when he did, if it weren't for Lily. He turned because, while he was a death eater in every sense of the word; he could not ignore the fact he was responsible for Voldemort planning the death of a girl whom he loved.

But the fact he did have in his heart to give up everything he thought was most important, for the love he had for Lily, even though she had moved on and was very happy, tells me that he did have a huge spark of something good in him. imo

That spark slowly changed Snape from where he was not really bothered about the atrocities Voldemort was committing to trying his best to save every life, if he could.


I agree that Snape, and many of the Death Eaters, retained a 'spark of good' within them.

At present, what most has my curiosity peaked with respect to Snape's change is whether or not he had respect for James. Ignisia pointed out that he referred to Lily as Lily Potter and I must agree that seems to indicate that Snape had respect for the sanctity of Lily and James' marriage at that point. Not only because he acknowledges that Lily chose James as a husband, but because it acknowledges Snape came to see that although he had emotions for James' wife, she rightfully belonged to James in that realm of thought.

I am still searching for a confirmation that Snape actually respected James as a person as I believe that JKR may have included that notion and it has merely escaped my notice.

I have considered that Snape did feel respect for James, but it only made him hate James more. That would be understandable and acceptable to me, but I can't verify that in canon yet.

So far I have considered the fact that in light of POA, Snape would have realized that James did have an alternative to saving him directly during the werewolf incident. James, with Sirius could have entered the shack behind Snape (under the invisibility cloak), transformed to animagi and kept Remus from wounding Snape, but allowed Snape to be tormented and scared out of his wits. Snape knew that was true, once he overheard that they had been able to keep Remus company because they'd been animagi. That thought would likely engender respect for James that he'd previously lacked.

Snape also realized the depth of James (and Sirius') love and respect for Remus in having become animagi, imo - a 3 year ordeal. That would squelsh any thoughts that Snape had about their relationship with Remus being based on it being 'cool to have a werewolf for a friend' (based on Snape's comment in his youth that he kept up with Lupin traveling to the shack on the full moons and the Marauders snuck out at night; it likely did not escape his notice that the Marauders snuck out on full moon nights). Their becoming Animagi also includes the notion that James (and Sirius) truly held Remus as their equal as a wizard - something I believe Snape had come to understand as well by the end of his life. Thus that could have garnered further respect for James in Snape's heart.

I have also considered that Snape was jealous of James, not just due to the fact that Lily fell in love with him, but also because he was popular, a quidditch star, well thought of and all of that despite breaking rules, being impertinent and pulling pranks. That jealousy in and of itself would reflect a respect for James. At some point I will go back and look at all of Snape's references to James in that regard to see if there is underlying jealousy in his remarks.

So all of that is possible and my search continues in this regard because I feel it may be what JKR was trying to show - and I missed it, :lol:. I do very much appreciate the further clues others have found as Ignisia did. :)

I'm sorry, I haven't had the time to read every reply, so I apologize if some of you have already said this.

1)Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Hmm, there wouldn't be a Harry Potter story if she had not died. Do you mean if Voldemort had tried to kill her, but she survived? Then, I believe Snape would've turned to the good side. If not, then I think he would've tried to go on his own direction without caring for troubles or stayed truth to his Death Eater status.

2)Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

I always knew Snape wasn't "evil". All of my friends thought he was and they always asked me if I thought Snape was "evil". His "murder" was simply a way to protect Harry and a way to fullfil the prophecy. There was no choice and Dumbledore gave him his "permission" to kill him. Dumbledore was going to die anyway and I'm sure he knew that and if Dumbledore had died, then everyone would know Snape was on his side and therefore, Snape wouldn't have been able to keep spying anymore.

3) Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

I believe his childhood affected him and gave him some sort of trauma. I think he did it because of rebellion and because of that trauma. We see it nowadays, some criminals will commit crimes because they've had troubles in their childhood (i.e. abusive parents, etc). Lucius introduced himself and through him, he met Voldemort's future Death Eaters. And there we have it, Snape gets sorted into his house and someone wants to be friends with him. Normally, I believe he thought they were good people because, they accepted him. James and Sirius were pretty much his bullies. In real life, you wouldn't think your bullies are good people, would you? So, I think that's why he started to go on the dark side; he saw it from the moment he met Lucius that it was a sort of "welcoming" home.

Snape+trauma = Death Eater Disaster

4)How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Like I said before, I always knew he wasn't "evil". Harry was the son of his love, but also the son of his bully. It took a lot of love for him to willingly protect the son of someone who hurt him for so long. That says a lot about his character. He could've listened to his "revenge" side instead of his "love" side.

5) What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?

I think it was a good decision, realizing he still loved her and would do anything to save her. Like they say, you don't really know how much something or someone truly means to you, until you lose it. In this case, his heart told him he was going to lose the girl he always loved and made him acted in a good way.

6) What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

Love can change a lot of things. I believe Snape always had a good side in himself, waiting to come out. He could've easily say "no" to protect Harry because of James. Yet, he didn't because like I said before, he chose love over hate.


7) What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

He is powerful and intelligent. But his flaws, are that sometimes the way he spoke to Harry sounded really hateful, but then again, I think he saw James on his physique and it brought back those bad memories. What else can you expect from a trauma, right?

8) Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I know he always cared. He didn't want to show it because, that's just his personality. After being bullied by James and Sirius and after seeing true evil (Lord Voldemort and Death Eaters) then it's perfectly normal that he became a "cold" person. It would've looked weird if he had show lots of love for Harry, having grew up with such a trauma.

9) What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I don't think it was a father figure, but I think Dumbledore was a family figure and a friend. Dumbledore saw past him, believed his intentions and trusted him. That's what a good friend does. Instead of judging and pointing out his mistakes, Dumbledore listened and helped.

10) Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

I believe it would've been the same. Snape was already in love with Lily and therefore, would've come across James and Sirius. Lucius would've introduced him if he ever saw what they did to him, in order to bring him to his side.

11) There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

The fact that by helping Harry, he knew Harry would bring back memories from James' treatment. Also because, he was brave enough to warn Dumbledore, talked to him and try to help save someone he always loved.

12) Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?

Yes, he redeemed himself right from the moment he chose to warn about Lily. And to Harry yes, otherwise he wouldn't have named his son Albus Severus. Naming your child after someone is a true honor and it means you think very highly of that person.


That's all I have to say.

Respecting your opinion, but am I understanding you to mean you feel that Voldemort and Snape considered the prophecy as merely a 'hint of opposition'?

Voldemort was killing those who were posing absolutely no opposition to him at that time (muggles, some muggle born wizards). Even if he did consider it a 'hint' of opposition, the hint would be more opposition than he was receiving from muggles. So why would Voldemort do anything other than kill the child? Snape knew Voldemort had no compunction about killing groups of muggles, and that is the case even if Snape was not a Death Eater -everyone knew that. For the record, in light of the contents of the prophecy, I would respectfully disagree that either Voldemort or Snape considered the prophecy a mere 'hint of opposition'. The prophecy pinpointed the child as his major opponent.

I would respectfully disagree that Regulus and Snape did not know the extent of Voldemort's ruthlessness. That would presuppose that Regulus considered the horrible treatment Kreacher received at the hands of Voldemort an atrocity, but the torture and killing of numerous Order members, large groups of muggles and muggle born wizards and witches 'no big deal'. The same for Snape who had no intention of betraying Voldemort or leaving the Death Eaters until Lily was targeted. Was Lily being targeted worse than the aforementioned atrocities to Snape? Essentially that would mean Snape felt that the horrendous killings Voldemort was undertaking were not ruthless, but targeting Lily was. I would conclude that both Regulus and Snape knew and understood, to a large extent, the ruthlessness of Voldemort's character.

You are welcome to disagree, I am merely expressing my opinion...
Edit: You forgot to mention DD...he let killings go on for 5 years because he feared facing Grindelwald...

Also, I don't think it unlikely that they didn't realize the true ruthlessness of Voldemort, Voldy seems to operate in secrecy, For one whole year after he comes back, no one in school even believes Harry, since obviously you don't work with this assumption, your interpretation would be strikingly different. Also I think prejudice and wish to dominate muggles an muggleborns is different from actually planning to annihilate them... I don't think either Regulus & Snape realized this, while this was Voldy's hidden agenda...Also Voldemort operated by dividing his followers and doing everything in secrecy so it is possible for Reg & Snape to not realize this till much later...

You are welcome to disagree, I am merely expressing my opinion...
Edit: You forgot to mention DD...he let killings go on for 5 years because he feared facing Grindelwald...

Also, I don't think it unlikely that they didn't realize the true ruthlessness of Voldemort, Voldy seems to operate in secrecy, For one whole year after he comes back, no one in school even believes Harry, since obviously you don't work with this assumption, your interpretation would be strikingly different. Also I think prejudice and wish to dominate muggles an muggleborns is different from actually planning to annihilate them... I don't think either Regulus & Snape realized this, while this was Voldy's hidden agenda...Also Voldemort operated by dividing his followers and doing everything in secrecy so it is possible for Reg & Snape to not realize this till much later...


I respect your opinion, but I believe you misunderstood me. The first war of Voldemort's reign was not merely promises and threats to annihilate muggles and muggleborns, it was a full on war where all of that was actually taking place and the DEs as well as Voldemort were participating. I cannot put it as well as the Lexicon so I will quote it:

Lord Voldemort begins to gather followers and gain power. The Death Eaters use the Unforgivable Curses and the years of his ascent to power are marked by disappearances, deaths, torture, terror and atrocities in both the wizarding and Muggle worlds. The Death Eaters wear the Dark Mark and send that sign into the air where they have killed. (HP Lexicon, Lord Voldemort Timeline).

Those are the atrocities that Snape, along with the other DEs took part in, witnessed and knew about. I am not discussing the period prior to Snape joining, but while he was a member.


Question: "...Can [Snape] see the Thestrals, and if so, why?"
JKR: "He can see Thestrals...But you must not forget that Snape was a Death Eater. He will have seen things that…"

posted by Snapeforever711
Edit: You forgot to mention DD...he let killings go on for 5 years because he feared facing Grindelwald...

And Dumbledore also did not act on Snape's information that there was a spy in the Order. He sat on that for almost a year. That cost the Potters their lives.

Did Snape never meet with the Order like he did in the second war? I don't think so; no one seems to speak of him. Sad imo, because he could have reconciled with Lily right then...

Oh I think I understood, I am merely assuming that Snape was in the fringes of the DE crowd till he went and told Voldy the prophecy, furthermore, Voldy was at the height of his power during the last year when the Potter's were being actively hunted, that also happened to be the year when Snape turned... before that Voldy may have just been operating behind the scenes, till perhaps the last year... we don't know that, this seems to parallel what happened the second time, Voldy hid for a year, the second year he doesn't come out in the open, there are disappearances and murders but the Ministry covers it up, the third year Voldy unleashes havoc.... Just as Draco was all eager to join the DEs, but realized torture wasn't something he enjoyed, but he could see no way out of it, I don't see why Snape's and Regulus' case can't be similar.... to me it feels quite plausible...

I think that Severus might have had a rather comfortable positions among the Death Eaters, despite his youth and dubioius purity status. Voldemort would have spotted the similarities in their both vitas - the hateful muggle father, the 'weak' witch mother, the talent and brains. And Severus was a ready-made spy to send after Dumbledore, too, because he was so young that his name was 'clean' still, and because Dumbledore was known to have a weak spot for the people at the fringes of society - half-bloods among this group. I think Voldemort purposefully ordered Severus to trail Dumbledore, and try getting a job in Hogwarts if he'd get the chance.
Severus would have responded very well to this sort of favouritism. He's never been favoured in the way that James and Sirius were liked by their teachers in school (compare McGonagall's fond recollections in PoA), and having that powerful master putting trust in him to succeed with the assigned mission would have made the boy wanting to oblige as good as he could, and repay that 'trust' in his capacities by advancing as far as he could.

I think Snape cared for the people he spent his career at Hogwarts with. It's just that he's not big at showing his feelings, nor at expressing care the way most people do.

:welcome: violator!!! Enjoy the discussion!

Oh I think I understood, I am merely assuming that Snape was in the fringes of the DE crowd till he went and told Voldy the prophecy, furthermore, Voldy was at the height of his power during the last year when the Potter's were being actively hunted, that also happened to be the year when Snape turned... before that Voldy may have just been operating behind the scenes, till perhaps the last year... we don't know that, this seems to parallel what happened the second time, Voldy hid for a year, the second year he doesn't come out in the open, there are disappearances and murders but the Ministry covers it up, the third year Voldy unleashes havoc.... Just as Draco was all eager to join the DEs, but realized torture wasn't something he enjoyed, but he could see no way out of it, I don't see why Snape's and Regulus' case can't be similar.... to me it feels quite plausible...

I respect your view, however, it is contradictory to canon that Voldemort was acting in secret at the time Snape joined up. In addition to other references, the earliest I can recall is in DH, The Prince's Tale. Lily indicated her scorn for Voldemort during their 5th year at Hogwarts while speaking with Snape: "You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"

Voldemort's atrocities had already begun and people were already fearful of declaring his name. He was well known, even to muggle-borns at Hogwarts whose parents could not inform them about him. News was passed about the magical world. By the time Snape joined, Voldemort was already in full swing and he got the Dark Mark - Voldemort doesn't hand those out at random and/or without reference. Draco was the son of one of his ex-loyal followers while he appeared eager to join Voldemort on the train, we saw in the Sectumsempra Chapter what his true feelings were: fear that if he did not comply with Voldemort, his parents would be killed - he was uncharacteristically crying against the sink. We also saw in the Chapter, Spinner's end that Voldemort had elected Draco, not the other way around. While it was in Draco's nature to boast and even believe he might be able to do what Voldemort asked and save his parents, he was driven by a completely different motive than Snape. So I would respectfully disagree that the situation between Snape and Draco joining Voldemort was similar in nature.

I think that Severus might have had a rather comfortable positions among the Death Eaters, despite his youth and dubioius purity status. Voldemort would have spotted the similarities in their both vitas - the hateful muggle father, the 'weak' witch mother, the talent and brains.

I respect your opinion, however what would drive Voldemort to give Snape a comfortable postion in response to noting their similar backgrouds? Compassion? :hmm:

I respect your opinion, however what would drive Voldemort to give Snape a comfortable postion in response to noting their similar backgrouds? Compassion? :hmm:

Compassion, pah :) No, the recognition of a hunger to prove himself, just like the genuine loathing for their own roots in the muggle world. The purebloods might despise muggles, but it's a rather theoretical approach. When would Lucius have met with muggles to actually feed his contempt? Severus - like Tom Riddle - had grown up with them. His dislike was 'real', he had a whole history backing him up there. I don't think Petunia was his only memory of having met with muggles and their detest of his 'being different'.

I respect your view, however, it is contradictory to canon that Voldemort was acting in secret at the time Snape joined up. In addition to other references, the earliest I can recall is in DH, The Prince's Tale. Lily indicated her scorn for Voldemort during their 5th year at Hogwarts while speaking with Snape: "You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"

Voldemort's atrocities had already begun and people were already fearful of declaring his name. He was well known, even to muggle-borns at Hogwarts whose parents could not inform them about him. News was passed about the magical world. By the time Snape joined, Voldemort was already in full swing and he got the Dark Mark - Voldemort doesn't hand those out at random and/or without reference. Draco was the son of one of his ex-loyal followers while he appeared eager to join Voldemort on the train, we saw in the Sectumsempra Chapter what his true feelings were: fear that if he did not comply with Voldemort, his parents would be killed - he was uncharacteristically crying against the sink. We also saw in the Chapter, Spinner's end that Voldemort had elected Draco, not the other way around. While it was in Draco's nature to boast and even believe he might be able to do what Voldemort asked and save his parents, he was driven by a completely different motive than Snape. So I would respectfully disagree that the situation between Snape and Draco joining Voldemort was similar in nature.

I still don't quite see how it is contradictory to canon, what Lily says simply implies that Voldemort was gathering followers called DEs... There is no indication of what exactly Voldemort was doing, all that was known was that he was "dark" wizard and had a pureblood agenda... which would be enough to make Lily upset... I doubt she would have waited for so long to end the relationship if she knew the true extent of Voldemort's terror... I think Voldemort was clever in first gathering followers by showing promise for power and feeding the idea that domination over muggle-borns was the right thing to do, and I don't think he showed his true colors till the last year or two of the first war, that is my opinion and certainly not contradictory to canon... you may think otherwise...

Here is the direct quote from Sirius which makes me think so, an Regulus was younger than Snape, so Voldemort's true colors may not have been shown till much later...


ʹWere ‐ were your parents Death Eaters as well?ʹ

ʹNo, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea,
they were all for the purification of the wizarding race,
getting rid of Muggle‐borns and having pure‐bloods in charge.
They werenʹt alone, either, there were quite a few people,
before Voldemort showed his true colours,
who thought he had the right idea about things…
they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though.
But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero
for joining up at first.ʹ
ʹWas he killed by an Auror?ʹ Harry asked tentatively.

ʹOh, no,ʹ said Sirius.
ʹNo, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemortʹs orders, more likely;
I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort
in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far,
then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out.
Well, you donʹt just hand in your resignation to Voldemort.
Itʹs a lifetime of service or death.ʹ


From this I get the impression that a lot of the young DEs didn't understand what they were signing up for and when reality struck, they were either too scared, like Draco (lifetime of service or death) or decided to do something about it like Regulus, Snape (protect their loved ones) risking their own lives.
I am not saying it is right to have bloodist attitudes, but it seems quite a few people had it at that time, and they must have thought joining him to subjugate muggles and muggleborn was the right thing to do, I don't think completely and utter annihilation was something most people would have dreamed of.

I think Voldemort gives the impossible jobs to those he wants to punish. Draco was asked to kill Dumbledore in Book 6 and Snape was given the almost impossible task of following Dumbledore. It is unlikely Dumbledore would not be aware of Snape and/or his motives.

But Snape actually got some information one day.

I don't know for how long Snape had been following Dumbledore, but I would think that Dumbledore would have known the moment Snape started tailing him.

Why did not confront Snape, I wonder? Perhaps he wanted to see for how long and to what extent Snape would follow him.

He would have cursed himself when he realized that Snape had actually heard one part of the Prophecy.

He would have cursed himself when he realized that Snape had actually heard one part of the Prophecy.

But he knew that. From Trelawney, we've heard how the caught spy was dragged into the room where she and Dumbledore were. And the next time they - Severus and Dumbledore - meet, Dumbledore knows. 'What can a Death Eater want from me?' I think it was that evening of Severus being caught in the Hog's Head that Dumbledore realised with finality who Severus would call his master.

And trailing Dumbledore isn't the same kind of impossible task as sending out Draco to kill him. Voldemort wanted a spy close to Dumbledore, inside Hogwarts (as opposed to Peter, who was merely in the Phoenix Order, but not close to Dumbledore on a daily basis. And mind you, Dumbledore didn't manage to sniff out Peter either). In my opinion, Severus would have followed Dumbledore, checked out the staff (to see if there was someone they could catch and 'turn around' like Peter, or to abduct and replace by one of the Dark Order guys), learnt more about Dumbledore's habits, his allies, friends, secret connections, secret hideaways etc. And what's more - I do think that Voldemort did have the plan to introduce 'his man' Severus to the school as a member of staff, soonest possible chance they'd get. Because Severus was a half-blood - and Dumbledore liked to give people a chance, who were otherwise outcast for whatever reason.

I still don't quite see how it is contradictory to canon, what Lily says simply implies that Voldemort was gathering followers called DEs... There is no indication of what exactly Voldemort was doing, all that was known was that he was "dark" wizard and had a pureblood agenda... which would be enough to make Lily upset... I doubt she would have waited for so long to end the relationship if she knew the true extent of Voldemort's terror... I think Voldemort was clever in first gathering followers by showing promise for power and feeding the idea that domination over muggle-borns was the right thing to do, and I don't think he showed his true colors till the last year or two of the first war, that is my opinion and certainly not contradictory to canon... you may think otherwise...

Here is the direct quote from Sirius which makes me think so, an Regulus was younger than Snape, so Voldemort's true colors may not have been shown till much later...



From this I get the impression that a lot of the young DEs didn't understand what they were signing up for and when reality struck, they were either too scared, like Draco (lifetime of service or death) or decided to do something about it like Regulus, Snape (protect their loved ones) risking their own lives.
I am not saying it is right to have bloodist attitudes, but it seems quite a few people had it at that time, and they must have thought joining him to subjugate muggles and muggleborn was the right thing to do, I don't think completely and utter annihilation was something most people would have dreamed of.

I respect your view. I believe the problem may be that I do not see a similarity between the experiences of Snape and Regulus when they were Death Eaters. When Regulus was motivated by Kreacher to betray Voldemort, he was finished. He had washed his hands of the whole Death Eater regime based on the note he left for Voldemort in the cave. Snape on the other hand, did not feel the same distain for Voldemort and his movement when he left. As mentioned above, Snape would have remained a DE if Lily was not targeted. Snape showed surprise when Dumbledore indicated that he wanted a favor in return for protecting Lily. In other words, Snape was assisted in turning from Voldemort by Dumbledore, whereas Regulus did it on his own.

Too, I believe that Snape actually did turn from Voldemort's regime. What that means is that he actually did "turn" from something. There is no redemption or "turn" needed if Snape never participated and gave Voldemort a prophecy without any understanding of what the consequences might be.

Imo, Snape was marked by Voldemort as one of his own with his personal dark mark because he was a trusted and loyal servant. Imo, Voldemort had to have trusted Snape completely because he would not send a distrusted, little used, minion to act as a spy for the super intelligent Dumbledore who had an amazing past. Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort feared. Such a servant would likely waver at the first sign of Dumbledore's eyes which is exactly what happened when Voldemort set Draco upon Dumbledore - fully intending for him to fail. But Voldemort did not wish for Snape to fail.

Lily called Voldemort "you know who" which the wizard world only began doing once they became fearful of uttering Voldemort (PS/SS). Imo, they would not be fearful if the only thing they believed he was doing was promising power and feeding the idea that domination over muggle-borns was the right thing to, as you indicated. They would have merely called him crazy and perhaps indicated he had dangerous ideas, but he already had Death Eaters working for him - Lily calls them by name.

Imo, Snape had been heavily immersed in Voldemort's service, killing, torturing and participating in everything else the Dark Lord required of his most loyal servants. That is what makes Snape's "turn" significant and meaningful. There is no value in Snape's turing from basically doing nothing in service to Voldemort to loyally serving Dumbledore, because basically it is not a turn at all, imo. There would be no need for redemption and worse, it subsumes all of the honor and value related to Snape's subplot into one of little merit and worth, imo. Finally, it makes Snape agreeing that he no longer watches those die that he can save completely nonsensical. He had to have done it in order for him to 'no longer do it' imo.

So that is why Voldemort's activities and Snape's total non-participation is contrary to canon to me. I respect that you see this distinctly and because our views are so disparate, I believe we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. :)


Compassion, pah :) No, the recognition of a hunger to prove himself, just like the genuine loathing for their own roots in the muggle world. The purebloods might despise muggles, but it's a rather theoretical approach. When would Lucius have met with muggles to actually feed his contempt? Severus - like Tom Riddle - had grown up with them. His dislike was 'real', he had a whole history backing him up there. I don't think Petunia was his only memory of having met with muggles and their detest of his 'being different'.

Yes, I understood what you meant. What I was asking was what was it that Voldemort felt when he noticed the same hunger in Snape and the fact that they shared similar roots in the muggle world, that made him wish to place Snape in a comfortable position?

posted by Fleur du Mal
But he knew that. From Trelawney, we've heard how the caught spy was dragged into the room where she and Dumbledore were. And the next time they - Severus and Dumbledore - meet, Dumbledore knows. 'What can a Death Eater want from me?' I think it was that evening of Severus being caught in the Hog's Head that Dumbledore realised with finality who Severus would call his master.

And trailing Dumbledore isn't the same kind of impossible task as sending out Draco to kill him. Voldemort wanted a spy close to Dumbledore, inside Hogwarts (as opposed to Peter, who was merely in the Phoenix Order, but not close to Dumbledore on a daily basis. And mind you, Dumbledore didn't manage to sniff out Peter either). In my opinion, Severus would have followed Dumbledore, checked out the staff (to see if there was someone they could catch and 'turn around' like Peter, or to abduct and replace by one of the Dark Order guys), learnt more about Dumbledore's habits, his allies, friends, secret connections, secret hideaways etc. And what's more - I do think that Voldemort did have the plan to introduce 'his man' Severus to the school as a member of staff, soonest possible chance they'd get. Because Severus was a half-blood - and Dumbledore liked to give people a chance, who were otherwise outcast for whatever reason.

I agree. I had thought that Dumbledore would have known before Snape was found out by Aberforth and that he must have cursed himself for not stopping Snape earlier.

But now that you write about Peter, well who knows, maybe Dumbledore never knew Snape was following him.

Yes, I understood what you meant. What I was asking was what was it that Voldemort felt when he noticed the same hunger in Snape and the fact that they shared similar roots in the muggle world, that made him wish to place Snape in a comfortable position?

I staunchly believe that Voldemort wasn't always the complete fool he is in DH. The decomposition of his soul must have vanquished a good deal of his talents - or he couldn't have become so big, IMO. So - I think that once upon a time, Voldemort had a better 'radar' for how to lure in his followers. That someone like Severus was starved for acknowledgement, and knowing this, Voldemort would 'oblige' him, offer him a bit of the respect he was so totally void of when joining up, and held the carrot of more respect before his nose. And looking at Severus, he must have seen just as sensed that the kid had it in himself to become great. Both on the talent side (let's face it, the Death Eaters with real formate were rather rare - he needed some brains to back up the muscles among his followers), and on the motivation side. Because Voldemort of all people understands where Severus is coming from, he'd understand how to bring a potentially valuable supporter to commit himself 150% to the cause.

And looking at Severus, he must have seen just as sensed that the kid had it in himself to become great. Both on the talent side (let's face it, the Death Eaters with real formate were rather rare - he needed some brains to back up the muscles among his followers), and on the motivation side. Because Voldemort of all people understands where Severus is coming from, he'd understand how to bring a potentially valuable supporter to commit himself 150% to the cause.

But would Voldemort really spend any time thinking about his death eaters and equating them to himself?

I always thought he would demand obedience, and completion of any task he assigned to them.

But would Voldemort really spend any time thinking about his death eaters and equating them to himself?

I always thought he would demand obedience, and completion of any task he assigned to them.

Motivation is a mighty ally. Look at Draco in HBP. The kid is motivated by fear of the most existential kind - and still, thinking he and his beloved parents will die, he cannot bring himself to complete his assignment. In fact, Draco had far more verve and drive before he started being frightened out of his wits. His idiotic attempts to send the necklace and have the mead poisoned were exactly that - idiotic. That's what fear yields on the result side. People lose their heads and make mistakes they might otherwise have avoided.

And you can't kill off your followers all the time if you seriously want to win a war. Obviously, one can do without someone like Crabbe sr. But you definitely need the Bellas and Luciuses, and the Severuses, too. Because (forgetting for a moment that Bella was mad and hungry to live her violent streak) Bella and Lucius had comfortable lives outside of their engagement for the Dark side. Someone like Severus on the other hand hasn't even got a life - with the right treatment, you can shape a boy like him into a marvellous weapon. Give him what he's always been denied - Severus doesn't want money, not even fame - he wants respect and recognition. Young Tom Riddle didn't decide to exploit his talents and connections (Slughorn!) to become rich, or make a famed career in the Ministry either - he had different desires. There's a parallel between them there, even if the desire is of a different nature.

My point really is - Voldemort had ambitious aims. Someone like Dumbledore kept on thwarting him. Dumbledore needed to be sent to Coventry. The same goes for others. If he could do it all by his onesies, he wouldn't have to meddle with his often so cumbersome Death Eaters - but he does need them, the more skilful ones in particular. Now how do you make them follow your bidding, without disabling their wits (unlike Draco's wits that were clouded by his fear) - how do you motivate them far enough to be willing to sacrifice everything on your behalf? - You take a look at each single one of them, and offer them to fulfil their deepest desires. Some will want riches - but there's Lucius' vaults of gold to fall back on and pay them. Others will want to satisfy their more sadistic streaks - oh, you've got victims for them, if they dispose of your enemies on the way. Some will want protection - you can offer that easily, you're a hell of a mighty wizard. And then, there's the cases like Severus, who have little to lose, and a rather modest wish - respect. To be recognised for what he is (not his father), and for his talents. Who wants a chance to show how great he can be. Feed him a little respect (or else, he could have stayed at home. Being bullied or ignored, he could have got so much easier elsewhere, at home, in school etc Why join the Death Eaters for more of that?), give him what nobody else has given him so far - and thus secure his loyalties. And give him the promise that there's more of this, if he advances. Show him that even he, son of a muggle, an outsider all his life, could make it up to the top 'and be revered above all' (Narcissa was a sly girl in her attempt to manipulate him into doing what she wanted him to do). The boy will eat out of the palm of your hand.

Agreed then, I just want to add, that had Voldemort not targeted Kreacher someone that Regulus obvkously loved enough he wouldn't have turned either, in all likelihood he may have died thinking that pure-bloods were superior to muggles & muggleborn but didn't agree with killing them in order to gain power, nowhere in canon is it shown that he turns against Voldemort because of DE ideals, he turns because of what he sees Voldemort do to a loved one and because he is the only one at that point who knows what Voldemort has done. He has created a horcrux... None of the death eaters knew this... For all we know Voldemort may have propounded the idea that subjugating others was the right of wizards... Snape may have seen this as a way of gaining power and respect in the wizarding world.... Also I never said Snape never participated in DE activities, but since I feel him to be a bit more sophisticated I feel he wouldn't be involved in the crude muggle tortures etc, he more likely had a more subtle, in the background kind of a role... spying, inventing dark spells etc etc something he would have loved and something Voldemort would have encouraged.... Since we don't know what Snape actually did or saw, it is quite likely he was more like Regulus... Again, I suppose we must agree to disagree regarding whether or not Voldemort was feared when Lily & Snape were starting year 6

It is sort of off-topic, but Jo and math don't always mix. So her apparently contradictory canon regarding Regulus and Snape and whether or not Voldemort was feared could just be "JK and math don't mix" or it could be Sirius got it wrong. However, I think it is off-topic for this thread.

Someone last page noted that Snape was likely following Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders. This is supported by Snape's words to Bella in HBP. I like this idea, as it explains well why Voldemort believed Snape so well, when we saw what actually happened. I do wonder whether Snape had met with Dumbledore prior to the scene on the hill, since Dumbledore did ask what message Voldemort had for him - this suggests to me that DE's may have been given the unenviable task of tracking down and giving messages to Dumbledore on occasion.

It is sort of off-topic, but Jo and math don't always mix. So her apparently contradictory canon regarding Regulus and Snape and whether or not Voldemort was feared could just be "JK and math don't mix" or it could be Sirius got it wrong. However, I think it is off-topic for this thread.


I respect your opinion, but Voldemort's being feared is not related to math calculations with respect to time. Lily was in her 5th year when she called him "you know who" - that was the original point I made. So it would not be something that JKR had to calculate. :)

Also, I believe that was Snape's first meeting with Dumbledore because Snape remarked: "don't kill me", which he wouldn't likely say upon multiple meetings with Dumbledore I wouldn't think.

Agreed then, I just want to add, that had Voldemort not targeted Kreacher someone that Regulus obvkously loved enough he wouldn't have turned either, in all likelihood he may have died thinking that pure-bloods were superior to muggles & muggleborn but didn't agree with killing them in order to gain power, nowhere in canon is it shown that he turns against Voldemort because of DE ideals, he turns because of what he sees Voldemort do to a loved one and because he is the only one at that point who knows what Voldemort has done. He has created a horcrux... None of the death eaters knew this... For all we know Voldemort may have propounded the idea that subjugating others was the right of wizards... Snape may have seen this as a way of gaining power and respect in the wizarding world.... Also I never said Snape never participated in DE activities, but since I feel him to be a bit more sophisticated I feel he wouldn't be involved in the crude muggle tortures etc, he more likely had a more subtle, in the background kind of a role... spying, inventing dark spells etc etc something he would have loved and something Voldemort would have encouraged.... Since we don't know what Snape actually did or saw, it is quite likely he was more like Regulus... Again, I suppose we must agree to disagree regarding whether or not Voldemort was feared when Lily & Snape were starting year 6

Ah I misunderstood you then. It is very possible that Snape was a spy all along. Voldemort would need spies - for instance, someone to let him know the muggles were all gathering at the town center for some event at 6pm so he could send his troops out to kill them. Snape's crafty spellwork would have also made him a good person to torture the captured Order members and kill them, so he was possibly put to that task as well. That would also allow him to remain largely unknown as a Death Eater and thus, a good spy. However, Dumbledore had other spies among the Death Eaters during the first war according to Fudge, so that could be how he learned that Snape was a Death Eater.

The canon indicates that Regulus was indeed upset by the knowledge of the horocrux. Kreacher's experience was a catalyst because Regulus knew what had happened in the cave, and by his note, it is obvious that he was not 'doing it all for Kreacher' imo. Regulus was already "worried" according to Kreacher - my impression was that it was the horocrux that had him in that state. There was no expression of love for Kreacher by Regulus in his tale (DH Kreacher's Tale). Snape was 'doing it all for Lily' and it had nothing to do with his changing his mind about Voldemort's regime, imo. He did not feel it was wrong and in fact did not lose his Death Eater mentality completely until some years later. Snape said: "Recently, only those I can't save" in answer to Dumbledore's assertion that he'd watched many people die. Recently does not mean 15, 10 or even 5 years previously. Recently means at most, within the last couple of years (and that is stretching it). Imo, JKR kept it very real because a man does not go from Death Eater mentality to a change of heart overnight. She also provided a reason for Regulus' quicker change - he was never really into it from the start - had no idea what he was in for. She never said, and there is no book canon indicating, that Snape felt likewise uncertain about his decision to be a Death Eater. JKR said the opposite - he would have stayed if it were not for Lily; and she did not add anything about Snape finding the idea of leaving worth it because he had found it all more than he bargained for. So that is what I meant by I don't see the two situations as similar. :)

Regulus' note:


To the Dark Lord. I know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horocrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. R. A. B.

On Snape's mentality while a Death Eater:


Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?
JKR: No. He definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy.

It could also be lately, because Voldemort has only returned for the last two years? I mean Snape hasn't had to watch people die after Vapormort happened 15/16 years ago... And he does show concern for the students in his own way(behind the scene)... His tightly gripping the chair when he hears of Ginny in CoS is telling... He is the one who makes the mandrake potion so that the petrified victims can be cured... He is also probably the one who makes potions at the end of OoTP and he very conspicuously heals Katie, Draco and to some extent DD...Throughout the series Severus has been many things but lack of concern or care when people are in danger isn't one of those things...

Regarding Regulus, again there is no indication that his bloodist ideas changed, he is simply horrified that Voldemort would go to the extent of creating horcruxes to gain immortality and its then Regulus realizes that Voldemort is truly in it for himself not because he wants to make the world a "better place" by driving out muggleborns, obviously he sees Voldemort for who he truly is, a psychopath... This is something Voldy was very good at hiding... everyone seemed to have been taken in by his charms...

Tying this to Snape... he loved Lily and he must have eventually realized that if he truly loved her, not only would he have to protect her son, but also that he had to understand her ideals and embrace them...his patronus is indicative of that... And yes like Draco, Regulus was never truly a death eater.... and nor was Severus, JKR may not have said this in the interviews but DD says it in GoF


Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am

DD would never keep someone who still had DE ideals in his school... IMO

And regarding your JKR quotation, why would Snape bother about someone else's child??That would have simply resulted in his death (which it did in the case of Lily), he loved Lily enough to risk his own life for her family, why would he do this for some unknown person? He is willing to do anything...and he does give his life up literally, his sole reason for living becomes to protect Harry... why should he dedicate his entire life to someone he has no relation with...

It could also be lately, because Voldemort has only returned for the last two years? I mean Snape hasn't had to watch people die after Vapormort happened 15/16 years ago... And he does show concern for the students in his own way(behind the scene)... His tightly gripping the chair when he hears of Ginny in CoS is telling... He is the one who makes the mandrake potion so that the petrified victims can be cured... He is also probably the one who makes potions at the end of OoTP and he very conspicuously heals Katie, Draco and to some extent DD...Throughout the series Severus has been many things but lack of concern or care when people are in danger isn't one of those things...


I respect your view, and I would agree that Snape's mentality changed over time. I would also agree he could have been referring to when he'd been put to the test of watching people die once more upon Voldemort's return. So I stand corrected, his change likely had progressed over time and by GoF was in place. But the point I was trying to make is that Snape did not travel up to the hill to warn Dumbledore about Lily and suddenly have a change of heart about his passion for Voldemort and being a Death Eater. That type of thing takes time - going from being able to watch people die who you could save, and yet doing nothing - to actually doing something to save them.


Regarding Regulus, again there is no indication that his bloodist ideas changed, he is simply horrified that Voldemort would go to the extent of creating horcruxes to gain immortality and its then Regulus realizes that Voldemort is truly in it for himself not because he wants to make the world a "better place" by driving out muggleborns, obviously he sees Voldemort for who he truly is, a psychopath... This is something Voldy was very good at hiding... everyone seemed to have been taken in by his charms...

Yes I agree. :) And Kreacher's ordeal in the cave drove him to action, but he also had decided for himself that his service for Voldemort was at an end. I also agree that Regulus didn't likely lose his purist attitude and change all of his ideologies. But we don't have canon about that either way, so we can only speculate. However, he did, of his own accord, turn away from Voldemort once he found out what being a Death Eater really meant and what their leader was all about.



And yes like Draco, Regulus was never truly a death eater.... and nor was Severus:

"Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater.

However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am"

The underlined portion is all that I was indicating - as you have provided. Draco and Regulus were death eaters, but they got in and found out it was all more than they had bargained for. JKR used them in a comparative statement in that regard.

However, Snape was indeed a Death Eater and he "turned", not because it was more than he bargained for - there is no book canon or statement by JKR to indicate that. What canon indicates is that Snape wanted to protect Lily from death and for him, that notion became dominant over his desire to be a Death Eater. Naturally you have every right to speculate that Snape found it to be more than he bargained for - we could similarly speculate that every Death Eater that joined felt that way (with the possible exception of Bella who loved Voldemort). But there is a significant difference between Regulus and the rest of the Death Eaters because upon feeling that way, he took action and left - due to what Voldemort had done to Kreacher and what he'd found out about the horocrux - but that was all about Voldemort, not about Kreacher. Regulus handed Kreacher over to Voldemort in the first place, would Snape have similarly handed over Lily? I don't believe he would have. The motivations of the two men differed greatly, imo, one was all about a woman he had emotions for and the other was all about abhorance for Voldemort.


And regarding your JKR quotation, why would Snape bother about someone else's child??That would have simply resulted in his death (which it did in the case of Lily), he loved Lily enough to risk his own life for her family, why would he do this for some unknown person? He is willing to do anything...and he does give his life up literally, his sole reason for living becomes to protect Harry... why should he dedicate his entire life to someone he has no relation with...

I agree and that is exactly what I was trying to say. While James, Lily and the rest were fighting for unknown persons who were dying (faceless muggles, muggle born wizards who were being killed), Snape would not risk his life for an unknown person - as you indicated. But that is precisely because all of the Death Eaters had to harden their hearts in that way in order to survive their ordeal, imo. That is the mentality that Snape 'turned' from that I was speaking about earlier.

I also agree that when Snape 'turned' he began to give up that way of thinking and over time, reached the point where he would do something if he could, rather than watch someone die. :)

Quote:

And yes like Draco, Regulus was never truly a death eater.... and nor was Severus:

"Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater.

However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am"

The underlined portion is all that I was indicating - as you have provided. Draco and Regulus were death eaters, but they got in and found out it was all more than they had bargained for. JKR used them in a comparative statement in that regard.

However, Snape was indeed a Death Eater and he "turned", not because it was more than he bargained for - there is no book canon or statement by JKR to indicate that. What canon indicates is that Snape wanted to protect Lily from death and for him, that notion became dominant over his desire to be a Death Eater. Naturally you have every right to speculate that Snape found it to be more than he bargained for - we could similarly speculate that every Death Eater that joined felt that way (with the possible exception of Bella who loved Voldemort). But there is a significant difference between Regulus and the rest of the Death Eaters because upon feeling that way, he took action and left - due to what Voldemort had done to Kreacher and what he'd found out about the horocrux - but that was all about Voldemort, not about Kreacher. Regulus handed Kreacher over to Voldemort in the first place, would Snape have similarly handed over Lily? I don't believe he would have. The motivations of the two men differed greatly, imo, one was all about a woman he had emotions for and the other was all about abhorance for Voldemort.
But did Snape not "abhor" Voldemort for wanting to kill Lily? Doesn't it follow that he was horrified that Voldemort wanted to kill Lily, and therefore, he "turned"?

In my opinion, there is no difference between the "turning" of Dumbledore, Regulus, Draco, Narcissa, and Severus. They all discovered that they were not cut out to be Death Eaters. Narcissa never was one, but she still held those ideas, and yet by the end of DH, she "no longer cared if Voldemort won." To me that is identical with the epiphanies shared by the others who "turned."

We have plenty of those who either went bad and stayed bad - like Peter or Bella. Snape did not continue to be a DE, and he tried to do good, imo, and there is plenty of canon to back that up.

But did Snape not "abhor" Voldemort for wanting to kill Lily? Doesn't it follow that he was horrified that Voldemort wanted to kill Lily, and therefore, he "turned"?

In my opinion, there is no difference between the "turning" of Dumbledore, Regulus, Draco, Narcissa, and Severus. They all discovered that they were not cut out to be Death Eaters. Narcissa never was one, but she still held those ideas, and yet by the end of DH, she "no longer cared if Voldemort won." To me that is identical with the epiphanies shared by the others who "turned."

We have plenty of those who either went bad and stayed bad - like Peter or Bella. Snape did not continue to be a DE, and he tried to do good, imo, and there is plenty of canon to back that up.

Hiya Silver, been a while. Yes, Snape and Regulus had turning in common which was brilliant, I agree. Both were also abhored by an event (Lily being targeted and Kreacher being poisoned). However, there the similarity ends, imo. What we were discussing was the motivation of the 'turning' itself which was not similar. Regulus turned Kreacher over to Voldemort, something Snape would not have done with Lily. For Regulus, it was a last straw event in a line of atrocities he had not bargained for when joining up. As I pointed out before, Snape's mentality according to JKR, was distinct:


Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?
JKR: No. He definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy


Snape, while a Death Eater, could take the prophecy to Voldemort implicating a child, because at the time he was not "remotely interested" in what happened to the child. Snape, in other words, had built up a cold harbor against the atrocities that were a part of the Death Eater way of life. Regulus, on the other hand, had a reaction more in line with Draco's, which we witnessed both at Malfoy Manor and on a greater scale, during the killing of Charity Burbage. Regulus was abhored by the result of turning Kreacher over to Voldemort; but Snape would not have been abhored by the results of a child being killed due his having turned over the prophecy. It was only because it turned out that Lily's life was also threatened that Snape became abhored by what he had done.

The whole point was that Snape's 'turning' had a great amount of significance and value because of what he had come from and what he ultimately became in light of his Death Eater activity (only). That is not to say that Regulus' turning was not of value, but it would have been easier to do (but by no means easy) because his abhorance was with Voldemort and his concern was directed at the evil deeds of the Dark Lord. Snape's turning would be more difficult because his abhorance was focused on one act Voldemort planned to do and his concern was directed toward Lily. That meant that he later had to still come to a place where he saw the Dark Lord's deeds in the same overall negative light that Regulus did. I believe Snape did do that, but it took a span of some years for him to achieve it. Note that I do feel Snape was immediately disillusioned with and despised Voldemort the man himself (if not the teachings/deeds) once he killed Lily - but of course Voldemort was dead at that point.

Just as an aside, Peter actually was not bound by magic to resist killing Harry JKR said, so his final act was one of repentence (this was also stated by Dumbledore and Harry in DH - Harry thought to himself that Dumbledore had been right about Peter feeling remorse). But I agree in the case of Bella. :)

Snape was indeed a DE??? of course he was, so were Draco and Regulus, they were branded just like Severus. It's something you can't remove for as long as you live, it was a terrible thing... Regarding not wanting to save an unknown person.... that is exactly what DD did he uses the exact same phrase, "what did I care of the nameless, faceless persons" when talking to Harry... he ignored Grindelwald's reign of terror because he was blinded by his love for Grindelwald...and because he was scared to find out who was the Aariana's killer. James & Lily had already picked sides just as Snape... Snape needed a catalyst and it was Lily... would it have taken more deaths to "turn" Snape had it not been for Lily, probably (we don't know), just as it took DD five years of terror and deaths to eventually have the courage to face Grindelwald

I don't think Snape redeemed himself at all.
He did what he did completely out of a selfish love for Lily.
If he truly loved her, he would have seen she loved James and Harry and not let those two things she loved dearest to be taken away.

His actions were the reason that two innocent people died, two people who Lily loved.
What was he expecting? For Lily to suddenly, after her husband and son have been murdered by Voldemort, fall in love with a Death Eater, on of his followers? His follower who chose Dark Magic over her in the first place?

No chance, he was guilty and selfish. He didn't care about Lily's happiness truly, he just wanted her and sacrificed James and Harry to try and get her.
Not only that, but he'd have broken a magical bond if Harry would have died.
He was prepared to let James die, the same James who saved him, the same James who he owed a life debt to, for his own personal gain.

[staff edit: character bashing]

It's a good job Harry sees the best in people and was always prepared to give a second chance. Just like Dumbledore.

It's been tough keeping up with all the Snape threads but I couldn't resist this one.

I voted:

Lily Evans: She's an obvious one, since we know from Snape's own thoughts that he cared for her. I do think that while she was the catalyst for his change of heart and she remained the prism through which he saw the world, she wasn't his only reason for doing what he did. Though every road would lead back to Lily for him, I think his own statements about his regret for allowing other people to die while working undercover shows that he his reasons grew to be more than just avenging Lily.

Harry Potter: I do think he cared for Harry in a small way. A lot of what he did was out of duty and necessity, maybe most everything. But in his dying words to Harry, I think we find out that while Snape usually thought of James first when he saw Harry, he also knew that this boy was the last living reminder of Lily. And just for that, I do think Snape had a stake in Harry surviving beyond wanting to see Voldemort vanquished.

Lucius Malfoy: Probably his oldest friend and possibly the person who got him involved with the DE crowd. :\ Before Lily's death, I can actually see their time together in the DE reinforcing their friendship. Out of all the DE who are more than just names on a page, Snape and Lucius, seem to be the rare two that combine intelligence with some modicum of sanity. After that, I think their friendship endured because there were things Snape genuinely liked and respected about Lucius even while there were things they disagreed over and things he probably abhorred about the man.

Narcissa Malfoy: As Lucius' wife and Bellatrix's sister, Snape knew Narcissa for years and likely considered her an acquaintance, if not a friend. Their relationship mainly exists because of Lucius so how close they were depends on how close Lucius and Snape were. Still, I think he sympathized with her and, like I said above, couldn't refuse her plea to protect Draco. Not just because it came from a friend but because it reminded him of another mother's plea for her son, fifteen years before.

Draco Malfoy: I have to confess right off the bat, I have always been partial to the "Snape is Draco's godfather" theory. I can't believe it unless JKR confirms it (especially when canon hints against it) but I do enjoy it so. Regardless, it was made clear again and again, that Snape was Draco's favorite teacher and that Snape favored Draco over other students. Despite Draco's many less savory qualities, I do think Snape genuinely liked him. Not only as his friends' son but on his own merits. Draco could be very clever, had an aptitude for potions, was a pretty decent Seeker and he thought Snape was awesome. All good reasons for Snape to like him.

Moreover, was willing to take the Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco (which he didn't have to do) and, in a way, he died to protect Draco. He could have (though it would have been selfish and cowardly) told Voldemort that Draco was the Master of the Elder Wand and spared his own life, but he didn't even though it was obvious Snape wanted to escape his fate.

Minerva McGonagall I always thought these two had a very cute friendship, from the glimpses of their relationship that we got through the book. I see their relationship founded on mutual respect, a shared fondness for Quidditch and some healthy Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry. At the end of HBP, it honestly broke my heart at how McGonagall would see Snape and it was harder still, reading DH and knowing that Snape died with McGonagall horrified and disgusted by him.

Albus Dumbledore I think he absolutely respected and cared for Dumbledore. More than that, he trusted him implicitly just as Dumbledore trusted Snape with his life. Snape was willing to risk everything, his freedom, his life, the life of the woman he loved, when he went to Dumbledore in the first place. Years later, while Lucius knew Snape as the brilliant DE and McGonagall knew him as the loyal Order member, only Dumbledore knew who he really was and why he was doing this. Dumbledore, after Lily, was the only person in the whole world who came closest to knowing the real Severus Snape while he was alive.

And I think part of the reason he agreed to kill Dumbledore, was not just because he cared about Draco and wanted to keep up appearances with Voldie but because he felt it was his duty to help his friend even though he hated doing it.

After reading some of the responses on this thread, I have to agree that Snape cared about the students of Hogwarts as well. From the hints we received, I think he did everything he could to protect them and from his own admissions, it probably pained him that he couldn't do more.

As for Voldemort, I don't think he had any strong feelings for the man. Maybe, once, respect and awe but I think most of his reasons for joining the DE centered around his hatred for his father, his ambition and his desire to prove himself. And Bella? I think they hated each other. I think Bella saw him as competition and it probably killed her that a half-blood was as good of a dueler as she was and so trusted by Voldemort. Snape, for his part, was probably wary of Bellatrix as she appeared to be the only person who was suspicious of him (I took Draco's statements in HBP as Bellatrix's influence) and given her own relationship with Voldemort, a threat to his cover.

If he truly loved her, he would have seen she loved James and Harry and not let those two things she loved dearest to be taken away.

What, then, do you have to say about these quotes?

“I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter’s son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter – ”

Notice not only the content of the above quote, but the use of Lily's married name.

“You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain. Help me protect Lily’s son.”
“He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone – ”
“The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does.”
There was a long pause, and slowly Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, “Very well. Very well. But never – never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear…especially Potter’s son…I want your word!”
“My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?” Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape’s ferocious, anguished face. “If you insist…”

"No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you."
"Snape was trying to save me?"
"Of course," said Quirrell coolly.


Oh yes, and if you do not believe that Snape was redeemed, what is your interpretation of this quote?

“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?”
“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape.

His actions were the reason that two innocent people died, two people who Lily loved.

If I recall correctly, he was not proud of having told Voldemort about the prophecy. Just how I saw it.

What was he expecting? For Lily to suddenly, after her husband and son have been murdered by Voldemort, fall in love with a Death Eater, on of his followers? His follower who chose Dark Magic over her in the first place?

I doubt it. He isn't that stupid. :lol: I think he just wanted her to be safe and alive, and at that time in his life, had difficulty really caring about Harry or James.
Either way, Voldemort would never have let Harry live.

“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her – them – safe. Please.”

I think here he is beginning to learn that the Potters are a unit. Trying to save one means saving them all.

Not only that, but he'd have broken a magical bond if Harry would have died.

...But Harry didn't die, and Snape spent several years trying to make sure that Harry remained alive. :huh:

He was prepared to let James die, the same James who saved him, the same James who he owed a life debt to, for his own personal gain.

[staff edit: per Moriath - Snape vs Marauders is banned - who is better is banned]
Of course he wouldn't care about James as a newly-turned Death Eater. Heck, most people wouldn't cry too many crocodile tears if someone who bullied them for 7 years died.
Also, Snape seems to believe that there is no life debt. He personally does not attribute the best of motives to James during the Werewolf Incident.

BTW, how would Snape gain anything from Lily's survival? All I can think of is the satisfaction of her being alive, and I personally don't see that as selfish.

It's a good job Harry sees the best in people and was always prepared to give a second chance. Just like Dumbledore.

Yes, Harry is a good judge of who is redeemed and who isn't. ;) Unlike Voldemort, who says Snape merely "desired her".

Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Lion
If he truly loved her, he would have seen she loved James and Harry and not let those two things she loved dearest to be taken away.

What, then, do you have to say about these quotes?

Quote:
“I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter’s son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter – ”

Notice not only the content of the above quote, but the use of Lily's married name.

I'm talking about his actions in the first war. When he knew that by telling Voldemort that information, what the direct action would be.


Quote:
“You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain. Help me protect Lily’s son.”
“He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone – ”
“The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does.”
There was a long pause, and slowly Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, “Very well. Very well. But never – never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear…especially Potter’s son…I want your word!”
“My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?” Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape’s ferocious, anguished face. “If you insist…”

Quote:
"No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you."
"Snape was trying to save me?"
"Of course," said Quirrell coolly.


Oh yes, and if you do not believe that Snape was redeemed, what is your interpretation of this quote?

I don't think it was redemption.
He was trying to save him because he was responsible for her death. He also owed James, which now transferred to Harry, a life debt.
Nothing else. For her, and her alone.


Quote:
“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?”
“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape.


Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Lion
His actions were the reason that two innocent people died, two people who Lily loved.

If I recall correctly, he was not proud of having told Voldemort about the prophecy. Just how I saw it.

Snape was a clever wizard. He'd have also known for sure that Lily was pregnany and expecting a child at that date. He would have known for sure exactly what that prophecy would entail by telling the Dark Lord. It would have been more wise to keep the prophecy to himself, that way fully ensuring the Dark Lord would have never targeted the Potter's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Lion
What was he expecting? For Lily to suddenly, after her husband and son have been murdered by Voldemort, fall in love with a Death Eater, on of his followers? His follower who chose Dark Magic over her in the first place?

I doubt it. He isn't that stupid. I think he just wanted her to be safe and alive, and at that time in his life, had difficulty really caring about Harry or James.
Either way, Voldemort would never have let Harry live.

If Voldemort hadn't been told by Snape, Harry James and Lily would have lived.




Quote:
“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her – them – safe. Please.”

I think here he is beginning to learn that the Potters are a unit. Trying to save one means saving them all.

He's only concerned about her safety. That's what i'm saying. He doesn't care that he owed James a life debt, he's willing to break old magic for this. He's willing to let an innocent child die also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Lion
Not only that, but he'd have broken a magical bond if Harry would have died.

...But Harry didn't die, and Snape spent several years trying to make sure that Harry remained alive.


Only on second chance. First chance he was willing to break it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Lion
He was prepared to let James die, the same James who saved him, the same James who he owed a life debt to, for his own personal gain.

The same James who bullied him mercilessly for years. The same James who saved him and then proceeded to publicly humiliate him in front of a group of onlookers.
Of course he wouldn't care about James as a newly-turned Death Eater. Heck, most people wouldn't cry too many crocodile tears if someone who bullied them for 7 years died.
Also, Snape seems to believe that there is no life debt. He personally does not attribute the best of motives to James during the Werewolf Incident.

BTW, how would Snape gain anything from Lily's survival? All I can think of is the satisfaction of her being alive, and I personally don't see that as selfish.


Satisfaction of her being alive constantly grieving her dead husband and 1 year old child? Sounds pretty selfish. The life of 2 and the happiness of 1 for satisfaction?



Quote:
Originally Posted by High_Lion
It's a good job Harry sees the best in people and was always prepared to give a second chance. Just like Dumbledore.

Yes, Harry is a good judge of who is redeemed and who isn't. Unlike Voldemort, who says Snape merely "desired her".


I don't think he's redeemed.
It was his actions in the first place, that Harry has no parents.
It would take a hell of alot to redeem him from that.

Please let's not go into the area of speculation here. If you are speculating, then indicate that. If it is your opinion, then indicate that. If it is not canon, meaning in the book or from a JK Rowling interview, then it is your opinion.

Reminder: Snape vs Marauders is a banned topic. Who is better, Snape or James, is a banned topic per Moriath.

But by this are we also categorically assuming that Dumbledore also cannot be redeemed for the death of Ariana and Harry for the death of Sirius?

While Harry's carelessness was responsible for Sirius falling into the veil, Dumbledore's role was more cserious in offing Ariana.

Snape was a death eater; no one is disputing that. But imo it also cannot be disputed that he turned away from the dark and spent the rest of his life that was about 17 years, fighting that very evil, he was once a part of.

He repented and felt remorse; just like Dumbledore and Harry. That only lifted Snape imo.

He was a death eater and he changed. Why do you feel he cannot change?

James and Lily were already targeted by Voldemort for defying him thrice. That has in no way to do anything with Snape or the Prophecy.

Voldemort would have attacked the Potters because they were already defying him.

I'm talking about his actions in the first war. When he knew that by telling Voldemort that information, what the direct action would be.

But Snape did not kill himself when Lily died. He lived on into the second war and took part in that as well. Judging Snape only by his actions as a Death Eater (or newly-turned Death Eater) at 21 is, IMO, unreasonable.

If you are prepared to forgive James for his constant bullying of Snape at 15 on the grounds that he grew up, doesn't Severus Snape deserve the same? After all, he was a Death Eater, and he was callous toward Harry and James, but as The Prince's Tale clearly shows, he "grew up" as well. IMO, of course. (BTW, staff- is it ok if I compare them on an equal level, because that IS what I'm doing?)

Nothing else. For her, and her alone.

I will not dispute that Lily was Snape's motivation. She was. However, I do not see this is wrong or selfish. His love for Lily not only motivated him to continue his job of spying on Voldemort "at great personal risk", but to protect Harry, and, finally, to recognize the value of human life ("Lately, only those I could not save").

And what is Harry fighting for, anyway? When he is marching across the forests of England looking for Horcruxes, he thinks of Ginny constantly. When he is about to die, he calls the shades of his parents and their friends. He loves these people.

If he did not have them, and only had faceless strangers who had done nothing for him, never cared about him, and hardly knew him, would he have been prepared to give his life to save them? I do not think so.

Having friends and loved one allowed Harry to open his heart to mankind.
Has that not happened with Snape as well? (BTW, snark does not enter into this. :lol: The guy can be a good dude and still be snarky)



Snape was a clever wizard. He'd have also known for sure that Lily was pregnany and expecting a child at that date. He would have known for sure exactly what that prophecy would entail by telling the Dark Lord. It would have been more wise to keep the prophecy to himself, that way fully ensuring the Dark Lord would have never targeted the Potter's.

True, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Mistakes happen. Snape was a Death Eater, and he did things that hurt not only the Potters, but other people as well.
But what I was saying was that once he turned to the good side, he regretted those actions. That was the first step toward redemption, IMO.

If Voldemort hadn't been told by Snape, Harry James and Lily would have lived.

Yes.
Did you expect Snape to be born with a halo sticking out of his head?

He's only concerned about her safety. That's what i'm saying. He doesn't care that he owed James a life debt, he's willing to break old magic for this. He's willing to let an innocent child die also.

Yes. At 21, that is correct.
At 38, I highly doubt he'd have done the same.

Only on second chance. First chance he was willing to break it.

Yes. But, you see, there is numerical order to consider.
First chance came first. Second chance came second.
Second chance was better than the first.
That is redemption by definition.

Satisfaction of her being alive constantly grieving her dead husband and 1 year old child? Sounds pretty selfish. The life of 2 and the happiness of 1 for satisfaction?

If he had considered that, he would probably have reconsidered. JMO.

It was his actions in the first place, that Harry has no parents.
It would take a hell of alot to redeem him from that.

Yeah, you're right. It would take a lot to redeem him for that. Heck, it might even take:


Spying for years on crucio-happy Voldemort
Protecting a kid he doesn't even like
Going back to Voldemort to spy when the Dark Lord returned, even though Voldemort is convinced Snape is no longer his servant
Adding Occlumency lessons to his busy schedule to help the Order
Healing a bajillion people Draco inadvertantly injured
Sacrificing his place amongst his allies to prevent Dumbledore from getting Greyback'd
Spending a year in Hogwarts among colleagues who hate him, trying to covertly to protect the students
Saving those he could save


Yeah, I think that would probably be the sort of things that would redeem Snape. If only he had done them!

umm... Snape wasn't responsible for Potters' death completely... there was Peter, the botched secret keeper plan by James and Sirius and of course the fact that it was Voldemort who actually killed them... DD himself says that telling the prophecy to Voldy was the greatest regret of Snape's life... And ultimately he changed, quite drastically, the night he went to DD for help...

Yes, ignisia, this post was just an excuse... I love your new sig!!

Sarcasm does not help the discussion. If you can't discuss within two contrary opinions without getting the discussion heated, you'll loose your permission to post in this area for some time. Please be aware of this while wording your reply.

posted by Snapeforever111
umm... Snape wasn't responsible for Potters' death completely... there was Peter, the botched secret keeper plan by James and Sirius and of course the fact that it was Voldemort who actually killed them... DD himself says that telling the prophecy to Voldy was the greatest regret of Snape's life... And ultimately he changed, quite drastically, the night he went to the DD for help...


Exactly!
Snape went to Dumbledore many months before they were attacked. They had their warning from Dumbledore both about Voldemort going to attack them and about a spy in the Order.

It was not Snape's fault that the Potters did not protect themselves well! Had they heeded Dumbledore's warning he received through Snape, they would have lived.imo

I think Snape was the most honorabe character thoughout he book. Most the time was quite shifty, but I thought he was the chracact J.K may have thout out the most.

Lucius Malfoy: Probably his oldest friend and possibly the person who got him involved with the DE crowd. :\ Before Lily's death, I can actually see their time together in the DE reinforcing their friendship. Out of all the DE who are more than just names on a page, Snape and Lucius, seem to be the rare two that combine intelligence with some modicum of sanity. After that, I think their friendship endured because there were things Snape genuinely liked and respected about Lucius even while there were things they disagreed over and things he probably abhorred about the man.

I absolutely agree. Of course, we don't see too many Death Eaters 'in action' (as opposed to: merely their names mentioned somewhere), but Lucius and Severus strike me as two people who'd feel a certain natural affinity due to their similarities in interests and talents. And while I believe that Severus' intelligence outclasses Lucius, I think Lucius would have been willing to acknowledge this, and think to himself, 'he may be of lesser birth than I, but the guy is devilishly smart and makes up for it'. And I think that Severus would have been aware of this train of thought, and have appreciated that Lucius would value him for his brains and look past the muggle father. I don't think that was ordinary among the Slytherin students then.


Draco Malfoy: I have to confess right off the bat, I have always been partial to the "Snape is Draco's godfather" theory. I can't believe it unless JKR confirms it (especially when canon hints against it) but I do enjoy it so. Regardless, it was made clear again and again, that Snape was Draco's favorite teacher and that Snape favored Draco over other students. Despite Draco's many less savory qualities, I do think Snape genuinely liked him. Not only as his friends' son but on his own merits. Draco could be very clever, had an aptitude for potions, was a pretty decent Seeker and he thought Snape was awesome. All good reasons for Snape to like him.


There was a whole theory about this? Gosh, I missed that one, though I like the idea. Still - wouldn't Narcissa have mentioned this fact in her speech 'you're Lucius' old friend, Draco's favourite teacher'?
Indeed, I think that Draco and Severus were quite fond of each other. Like Severus would always see James when looking at Harry, I think he'd also see a bit of Lucius when dealing with this one's son - he'd see the boy who had once welcomed him so warmly despite his diffidence and the muggle surname.

, I think Lucius would have been willing to acknowledge this, and think to himself, 'he may be of lesser birth than I, but the guy is devilishly smart and makes up for it'.

Exactly! I see Lucius as someone who thinks that one of his strengths as leader is his ability to recognize and cultivate talented and brilliant people. And even as a kid he'd be able to appreciate someone who was more intelligent or skilled than he was (provided they had similar ideals and the like).

There was a whole theory about this? Gosh, I missed that one, though I like the idea

Yup. Spawned by the rumor that JKR told Rickman in the first movie that he should play his scenes like Snape is Draco's godfather. I've seen a few fics and essays on the subject.

Still - wouldn't Narcissa have mentioned this fact in her speech 'you're Lucius' old friend, Draco's favourite teacher'?

And that's the bit of canon that contradicts it. Though some people argue that it wouldn't have been necessary for Narcissa to mention that because Snape would obviously know he's Draco's godfather and people who thought the whole scene would read too much like something out of a Mafia movie if JKR did. ("I beg you, Don Snape, spare my only son. He's all I have left.")

For Snape, Draco was Harry's enemy and harry was james's son.so the motive is clear.after lily's death i believe, snape started hating anything related to DE. so there is no way that he would like draco.he helped draco becoz that kept him close to malfoys and close to his goal of saving Harry for lily.Snape loved none but lily and respected none but Dumbledore. draco was just a strategy.

For Snape, Draco was Harry's enemy and harry was james's son.so the motive is clear.after lily's death i believe, snape started hating anything related to DE. so there is no way that he would like draco.he helped draco becoz that kept him close to malfoys and close to his goal of saving Harry for lily.Snape loved none but lily and respected none but Dumbledore. draco was just a strategy.

I don't know, I like to think that Severus was deeper than that. And that there are two conflicting emotions going on in him - his wish to treasure and honour his only - and dead - love, and that old friend Lucius and his family being on the other side. So that at incidents like Lucius being revealed as the one behind slipping Ginny the diary, and when Harry identifies Lucius after the graveyard scene, Severus must think 'damn it, pal, why can't you keep out of this! I don't want to be your undoing!'

I don't know, I like to think that Severus was deeper than that. And that there are two conflicting emotions going on in him - his wish to treasure and honour his only - and dead - love, and that old friend Lucius and his family being on the other side. So that at incidents like Lucius being revealed as the one behind slipping Ginny the diary, and when Harry identifies Lucius after the graveyard scene, Severus must think 'damn it, pal, why can't you keep out of this! I don't want to be your undoing!' I tend to agree with you about this. If Snape was friends with Lucius, he wouldn't have wanted to fight against him, in my opinion.

Yes. But, you see, there is numerical order to consider.
First chance came first. Second chance came second.
Second chance was better than the first.
That is redemption by definition.

Yeah, you're right. It would take a lot to redeem him for that. Heck, it might even take:


Spying for years on crucio-happy Voldemort
Protecting a kid he doesn't even like
Going back to Voldemort to spy when the Dark Lord returned, even though Voldemort is convinced Snape is no longer his servant
Adding Occlumency lessons to his busy schedule to help the Order
Healing a bajillion people Draco inadvertantly injured
Sacrificing his place amongst his allies to prevent Dumbledore from getting Greyback'd
Spending a year in Hogwarts among colleagues who hate him, trying to covertly to protect the students
Saving those he could save


Yeah, I think that would probably be the sort of things that would redeem Snape. If only he had done them!

I respect your opinion and as I believe you are intimating, I feel that these factors together with Harry's ultimate forgiveness of Snape were enough for some people to feel that Snape was redeemed.

However, even while recognizing those things that Snape did later in life, I feel that one of the most important features of redemption is feeling remorse for one's act, together with the consequences of that act. Snape did feel remorse for his act, imo, but only because it resulted in Lily's death. I believe he had great remorse for that particular consequence as well. But I don't feel Snape had remorse for his act or the consequence of James death; nor do I feel he had remorse for his act and the consequence that resulted for Harry - the death of his parents. I question whether Snape had remorse for all of those killed while he was a Death Eater - but I would be willing to concede that.

While I truly believe that the fighting between the Marauders and Snape in their youth was mutual, even if I felt it was one sided, I would still hold the same requirement for Snape with respect to his feeling remorse for James and Harry. The two matters are independent of one another imo, in that Snape's redemption is totally dependent on the state of his soul and his ability to find remorse. If he could not find that remorse in his heart, for whatever reason(s), Imo, Snape's redemption cannot not be complete, imo.

The issue for me then becomes: is there remorse to be found in respect? I think there is because if one respects someone, one would feel remorse for playing a part in their death. That is what provoked a search of canon to find indications that Snape respected James (and Harry). I think the single grandest stumbling block is in HBP when Snape said to Harry: "and you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!" And earlier in that same scene, Harry says Snape is acting cowardly and Snape retorts that it is Harry's father, James, who is a coward (according to Snape, for acts taken when James was 15 years old).

Snape said this subsequent to all of his conversations with a living Dumbledore and imo, it is difficult to square Snape having respect for James and speaking of him in that manner. If one truly feels remorse for assisting in causing the death of another, can one speak in that way about them? I consider that Snape was in utter turmoil, he'd just killed Dumbledore who he respected and possibly cared for to some degree. And yet, in the midst of that bewilderment, despair and emotionally charged situation, James comes to Snape's mind???

Harry then calls Snape a coward and cries out that Snape should kill him as he killed either his father or Dumbledore - canon is unclear. It cannot be known who Snape felt Harry referred to because Snape's mind was full of his enemity for James, yet he had just *killed* Dumbledore. In either case, Snape then lashed out and struck Harry with a whipping curse (HBP Flight of the Prince). With all of the reminders in that moment that Snape had played a role in Harry's parent's death, can respect for Harry be found in light of such an act?

So even if I can discover signs that there is respect and thus remorse on Snape's part for James and Harry, I would have a very difficult time overcoming this little bit of canon in finding ultimate redemption for Snape.

In the case of Harry, there is the fact that Snape gave his life to give Harry a chance at killing Voldemort. However, again a stumbling block arises when one notes Snape's final action in life. Snape declared "look at me" and according to JKR, he loathed Harry at that time. Thus, imo, at the moment of his death, his desperation to see Lily's eyes one last time was so great, he was willing to use Harry as a channel to do so. Once more, that indicates to me a lack of respect for Harry's person.

One could interpret the 'look at me' more liberally to mean Snape was asking Harry to look at the memories. Analysing that interpretation: Because Snape knew there was mutual loathing between them (JKR's statement and DH Sacking of Severus Snape) and that Harry had no respect for him at that moment (believing him a loyal Death Eater), Snape may have felt it was imperative to impress upon Harry the importance of viewing the memories. That, imo, is not a sign of respect, but a sign of need - Snape had every reason, as he had always had, for wanting to see Voldemort Vanquished for good.

In sum, for me personally, Snape's redemption rests on a thin thread of hope that the above factors can be reconciled in some way to show that Snape did have respect for (and thus remorse for his act toward) James and Harry.

However, even while recognizing those things that Snape did later in life, I feel that one of the most important features of redemption is feeling remorse for one's act, together with the consequences of that act. Snape did feel remorse for his act, imo, but only because it resulted in Lily's death. I believe he had great remorse for that particular consequence as well. But I don't feel Snape had remorse for his act or the consequence of James death; nor do I feel he had remorse for his act and the consequence that resulted for Harry - the death of his parents. I question whether Snape had remorse for all of those killed while he was a Death Eater - but I would be willing to concede that.


I agree. Snape's concern for Harry is arguable, but, imo, he did not ever feel remorse for contributing to James' death (and possibly the death of others, if in fact he did kill as a Death Eater), and I have an issue with Snape's character because of it. IMO, throughout the books, Snape does not show that he actually opposes the Dark Arts themselves- in fact, when he gets his moment to teach about them, he still speaks about them with a "loving caress" in his voice. It seems to me that Snape did not really care much for the lives others, that everything he did was for Lily and not actually out of personal moral conviction, or opposition to the principles of the Dark Lord's regime. I understand and accept that Snape played a crucial role in enabling Dumbledore's plans concerning Harry to be a success, but IMO, that does not make up for his past wrongs, especially when he is not sorry about what he did. Snape is able to insult and belittle James so easily and with apparent pleasure, that it is clear that he does not regret that his actions once played a role in bringing about the death of a twenty-one year old man and depriving his fifteen month-old son of a father.

-LilyPod

Snape is able to insult and belittle James so easily and with apparent pleasure, that it is clear that he does not regret that his actions once played a role in bringing about the death of a twenty-one year old man and depriving his fifteen month-old son of a father.

-LilyPod
Dumbledore said it was the "biggest regret of his life." In protecting Lily, he was protecting James and Harry. He could have turned back to Voldemort any time, just as Peter did in PoA. He could have tracked Voldemort down. He told Bellatrix he thought Voldemort was dead and gone, but that was a lie, imo - Dumbledore had told Snape the day Lily died that Voldemort might return. Hagrid also thinks Voldemort is lurking somewhere, as he tells Harry in SS/PS.

So no matter what Snape "said" to Bella about his "role" as a DE, he isn't one anymore, jmo. And the only reason to lie is if he is on the good side, which Harry certainly believes by the end of Book Seven. So it seems to me, we have a choice of believing in Snape the way he was before Harry was born, or Snape as he was at the end of Book Seven.

In my opinion, Snape's "journey" of growth is crucial to understanding the theme of redemption, and whether you love him or hate him, the fact is he was always acting for the Order in his dealings throughout the books. That is why Harry - and Ginny - choose to honor him with the name they give their son. I don't believe for one minute they would name their son after a Dead Death Eater.

Snape was all about keeping his promises to Dumbledore, and he swore to protect Harry. He had 10 years to change his mind while Harry grew up, but he didn't.

Redemption isn't an "overnight" sort of success, in my opinion. It's the fact that Snape never went back on his promises that earned Dumbledore's trust in him.

Dumbledore said it was the "biggest regret of his life."


I respect your opinion, but what Dumbledore said to Harry was:

"You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason he returned." (HBP Seer Overhead)

In DH, we learned that Dumbledore spoke the truth. Snape did feel a keen remorse when he realised how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy because it indicated Lily. And Snape's telling Voldemort the prophecy was the greastest regret of his life because it implicated Lily - according to DH. Finally, it was the reason he returned (to the good side) - according to DH. No where in that statement is James implicated and Snape was quite willing to allow James (and Harry) to die when he met with Dumbledore on the hill until Dumbledore brought to his attention that his behavior was disgusting.

After the Potters were killed, Snape returned to Dumbledore and the death of James Potter is not mentioned at all by Snape.

Thus I would respectfully disagree that Dumbledore was saying that Snape felt remorse for James when he spoke to Harry. Dumbledore merely said that Snape had remorse and it was Harry who believed that Dumbledore meant it extended to James - but imo, Harry found out while watching Snape on the hill and in Dumbledore's office after the Potter's death (in DH), that the remorse Snape had did not extend to his father.

That is my interpretation, however, I am open to the idea that there may be a better interpretation and I would very much like to hear how others interpret Dumbledore's words in light of Snape's actions as shown in the memory scenes in DH. :)

I agree. Snape's concern for Harry is arguable, but, imo, he did not ever feel remorse for contributing to James' death (and possibly the death of others, if in fact he did kill as a Death Eater), and I have an issue with Snape's character because of it.

I respect your opinion and before the last book, I was beginning to think that Snape could actually be truly evil. I always thought Snape was a good character and I obviously don't support the fact that he was a Death Eater, but the fact that he redeemed himself and he changed. That took a lot of guts, especially when Snape grew up in a troubled home plus suffered the bullying of James and Sirius. It says a lot because, a person with that deep of a trauma could've killed Harry already. Instead, he protected him because he loved Lily. Therefore, he chose love over revenge and hatred.


IMO, throughout the books, Snape does not show that he actually opposes the Dark Arts themselves- in fact, when he gets his moment to teach about them, he still speaks about them with a "loving caress" in his voice. It seems to me that Snape did not really care much for the lives others, that everything he did was for Lily and not actually out of personal moral conviction, or opposition to the principles of the Dark Lord's regime.

I believe Snape's passion for the Dark Arts was pretty much the only thing he had. Kids who grow up in a troubled home, often rely on something they discover and to them it is a good thing as long as they enjoy it, to the point that they can't tell whether it is good or bad. I guess you have to analyze Snape in a Psychological way to try to understand his character. I believe Snape did care for others. In Prisoner of Askaban he protected Harry, Ron and Hermione against Lupin as a Werewolf. If he didn't have it in his nature to care, that wouldn't have been his instinct. You see it in real life, there are people who look mad and cold and look as if they don't care about the surroundings, but if you ever get to know them then, you will find that they do care. The fact that he didn't go back to Voldemort to follow him, says that Snape didn't agree with him anymore.


I understand and accept that Snape played a crucial role in enabling Dumbledore's plans concerning Harry to be a success, but IMO, that does not make up for his past wrongs, especially when he is not sorry about what he did. Snape is able to insult and belittle James so easily and with apparent pleasure, that it is clear that he does not regret that his actions once played a role in bringing about the death of a twenty-one year old man and depriving his fifteen month-old son of a father.


When he warned Dumbledore about Voldemort's plan, he knew that it meant saving James also. Honestly, James bullied him throughout school so it is not surprising that he doesn't feel so good towards him. In real life, you would never speak to your bully unless your bully truly repents. Snape didn't have a true father so he didn't learn the true meaning of a father until he met Dumbledore. And even then, Dumbledore couldn't truly heal Snape's past horrors from his childhood. IMO, Snape was a traumatized person who looked past James' bullying to safe Harry. You have revenge (James) and you have love (Lily) and Snape chose love over revenge.

In real life, we all make mistakes and we all want to be forgiven and forget about our past mistakes, right? I think we can do the same for Snape because he ended up doing the right thing even though, he had a huge trauma in his heart.

Dumbledore merely said that Snape had remorse and it was Harry who believed that Dumbledore meant it extended to James - but imo, Harry found out while watching Snape on the hill and in Dumbledore's office after the Potter's death (in DH), that the remorse Snape had did not extend to his father.

I don't think Harry believed that in HBP. Harry yelled at Dumbledore about Snape's dislike of his father and asked Dumbledore if he hadn't noticed that the people Snape doesn't like "end up dead?" The hatred Snape felt for James was revisited in the hospital wing after Dumbledore's death, when Lupin exclaimed: "And Dumbledore believed that? Snape hated James!"

I didn't find anything in DH that indicated Harry thought Snape's remorse for Lily's death extended to James or even himself. I think Harry "got it" that it was all Lily and yet he didn't feel resentment about Snape's rather glaring lack of goodwill toward Harry and his dad.

ETA:

Therefore, he chose love over revenge and hatred.

I don't think he did. He was quite content to eke out every bit of revenge he could get on James Potter by mistreating and otherwise abusing James' son.

When he warned Dumbledore about Voldemort's plan, he knew that it meant saving James also. Honestly, James bullied him throughout school so it is not surprising that he doesn't feel so good towards him.

I respect your opinion, but I would appreciate any book canon evidence you have of this. If you are basing it on SWM, then I do not see how you could conclude James did anything "throughout" school because we only saw 30 minutes maximum of a seven year period. However, I won't assume you were basing your statement on this scene, thus I would appreciate if you could provide the canon you are basing it on. As you used it to support your argument about Snape's ultimate redemption, I feel it is important that the support be verified in canon. :)

In real life, we all make mistakes and we all want to be forgiven and forget about our past mistakes, right? I think we can do the same for Snape because he ended up doing the right thing even though, he had a huge trauma in his heart.

And yet, should we not hold Snape to this same principle? To whatever degree Snape felt James bullied him (even if in reality it was mutual), why should Snape's mistakes be allowed to be forgiven and forgotten when he could not do the same for his version of what James had supposedly done to him? James too did great things for others and did the right thing (becoming an Animagi, taking Sirius into his home, sacrificing his life for his family).

Perhaps it is only fair to judge Snape in the same way he judges others; if Snape does not feel remorse for his part in James death, why should he be forgiven his act that resulted in James death or receive redemption in the eyes of others?

I don't think Harry believed that in HBP. Harry yelled at Dumbledore about Snape's dislike of his father and asked Dumbledore if he hadn't noticed that the people Snape doesn't like "end up dead?" The hatred Snape felt for James was revisited in the hospital wing after Dumbledore's death, when Lupin exclaimed: "And Dumbledore believed that? Snape hated James!"

That is what I said. :lol: I may not have phrased it well, but what I meant was that Harry thought Dumbledore believed it extended to both of his parents; I agree Harry himself did not believe it. Nor did Lupin. Nor do I.

I didn't find anything in DH that indicated Harry thought Snape's remorse for Lily's death extended to James or even himself. I think Harry "got it" that it was all Lily and yet he didn't feel resentment about Snape's rather glaring lack of goodwill toward Harry and his dad.
ETA: I don't think he did. He was quite content to eke out every bit of revenge he could get on James Potter by mistreating and otherwise abusing James' son.

I agree. :tu:

I don't think he did. He was quite content to eke out every bit of revenge he could get on James Potter by mistreating and otherwise abusing James' son.


Like I said before, when you have a trauma, you tend to do those things. He did abuse him verbally because he reminded him of James. But, overall he protected him and at least IMO, he really care. I'm speaking from personal experience as people used to tease me. You forgive, but you never forget. I'm taking in consideration that Snape had a troubled childhood. So you put all those things together and it's no wonder he acted that way. Maybe, I'm saying this because, in real life I've seen situations like these.


I respect your opinion, but I would appreciate any book canon evidence you have of this. If you are basing it on SWM, then I do not see how you could conclude James did anything "throughout" school because we only saw 30 minutes maximum of a seven year period. However, I won't assume you were basing your statement on this scene, thus I would appreciate if you could provide the canon you are basing it on. As you used it to support your argument about Snape's ultimate redemption, I feel it is important that the support be verified.

Snape asked Dumbledore to protect the Potters. Had his intentions were only to protect Lily, he would've said so. As for the bullying, there's no need to write every year that James bullied him. IMO, I think Rowling just wanted to make the point that James did bully Snape whether it was for a year or more; he just did it. Of course, I'm not saying Jame is evil or anything and he did save Snape's life once (as it is said on the last chapter of the first book) and Snape's protection towards Harry were also because of that. Snape questioned Jame's actions (Prisoner of Askaban) and who wouldn't, right? Someone who bullied you saves you, then you would either think he saved you because he HAD to or because he WANTED to. When I read a book, I look deep into the meaning and connect the whole thing. So what I say is my own interpretation based on the entire series and how Rowling describes characters and their pasts.


And yet, should we not hold Snape to this same principle? To whatever degree Snape felt James bullied him (even if in reality it was mutual), why should Snape's mistakes be allowed to be forgiven and forgotten when he could not do the same for his version of what James had supposedly done to him? James too did great things for others and did the right thing (becoming an Animagi, taking Sirius into his home, sacrificing his life for his family).

Perhaps it is only fair to judge Snape in the same way he judges others; if Snape does not feel remorse for his part in James death, why should he be forgiven or receive redemption in the eyes of others?


I'm not saying James was truly evil and that he shouldn't be forgiven. They both did great things and I think we should forgive them because, they died doing the right thing. Dumbledore did say to Harry that Snape felt remorse, didn't he? IMO, I think Rowling just threw key points in there. I mean, I don't think we can expect her to write every single detail about what she wants to say. I believe Rowling made it clear through Harry that Snape repent and wasn't as evil as people thought he was. Why would Rowling write about Harry naming one of his SONS after Snape, if Harry and Rowling didn't think Snape deserved an honor? You don't name your children after evil people so I think that is the key factor to Snape's true intentions and persona.


I have to say thank you for respecting opinions. We all have a different view on Snape and I like reading the various interpretations.

I respect your opinion and before the last book, I was beginning to think that Snape could actually be truly evil. I always thought Snape was a good character and I obviously don't support the fact that he was a Death Eater, but the fact that he redeemed himself and he changed. That took a lot of guts, especially when Snape grew up in a troubled home plus suffered the bullying of James and Sirius. It says a lot because, a person with that deep of a trauma could've killed Harry already. Instead, he protected him because he loved Lily. Therefore, he chose love over revenge and hatred.

But he "always" loved Lily- he loved her when he became a DE, he loved her while he acted as one, he even loved her when he reported the prophecy. His love for her didn't make him a good person until she was gone. I do believe he still acted with alot of hatred throughout his life, and bitterness, which manifested in the bullying of his students, his inferiors, who he was given free reign to pick on. I also feel that he did choose revenge- IMO, his callous treatment of Harry was his personal revenge on James, for bullying him, and for marrying the love of his life.

I believe Snape's passion for the Dark Arts was pretty much the only thing he had. Kids who grow up in a troubled home, often rely on something they discover and to them it is a good thing as long as they enjoy it, to the point that they can't tell whether it is good or bad.

I agree- that is why Snape, neglected and abused, wnated to be a Death Eater, because, as Jo said, he craved power and acceptance, after a lifetime of unpopularity and neglect.

The fact that he didn't go back to Voldemort to follow him, says that Snape didn't agree with him anymore.

But we don't actually see proof of this, IMO. Yes, Snape works for DD, and yes, he protects Harry and works on behalf of the Order, but it was all for Lily; he would have continued to be a Death Eater if Frank and Alice had been killed, because he presumably did not know or care for them. Snape remained loyal to Dumbledore, because he had agreed to protect Harry (and the benefits- a comfortable life at Hogwarts, free from the stress of being locked up in Azkaban, weren't so bad either), but we do not see, IMO, his actual opposition to the Dark Arts in the books, or to the Dark Lord's regime- he was only opposed to it when Lily, someone he loved, had been targeted.

When he warned Dumbledore about Voldemort's plan, he knew that it meant saving James also.
But in his silence, he confirms that James' life was of no matter to him, that he was willing to hand over James and Harry for Lily's life (and that was the deal that he had with the Dark Lord, who came with the intention of killing James anyway but offered Lily the chance to live). It is this deal with the Dark Lord that gets me, and, though he went to DD, who he knew was the only person who might be able to protect the Potters, he had already struck it.

IMO, Snape was a traumatized person who looked past James' bullying to safe Harry. You have revenge (James) and you have love (Lily) and Snape chose love over revenge.

I would respectfully dissent that Snape chose love over revenge- he could have shown love to Lily by treating her son well, but he did not; he chose to bully and treat Harry unfairly for six years, to get his revenge on James, who married his childhood sweetheart. I understand that Snape can resent James for bullyng him- but taking out his grudge on Harry, who was innocent, was, IMO, hateful and not loving.

SIP: I agree that Snape was loyal to DD and to the Order during the books:)

-LilyPod

To LilyPod: I don't want to quote everything so I'll answer according to each of your response XD.

1) I do agree that his treatment towards Harry was bad. I wouldn't have done something like this. But, we can only imagine all of his past troubles that could've led him to actually think it was okay to get that revenge. I believe that there were times when he probably did it without realizing it. We all do things without realizing them, too. IMO, I think Snape tried to repair that by protecting Harry. Snape had a lot of reasons to protect Harry and one of them was also because James saved his life. I think we have to try to get into his mind every deeply. We don't know every single thought of Snape so we can only try to think what he could've thought. I think because of his dark past, he developed a different state of mind.

2) I agree with you. We don't see proof that he didn't agree anymore. I guess we can assume he did because he didn't go back to follow him.

3) Oh yea I also don't agree the fact that he agreed with Voldemort to kill James in order to save Lily's life. Then again, I think his revenge wanted to take over and he actually thought Voldemort was going to spare Lily. After he learned that Voldemort really was going to kill the Potters, then I think he realized it wasn't a good thing to give Jame's life for Lily's so he went to Dumbledore and asked him to protect them all (the Potters). Again, we can only assume what he thought.

4) (last paragraph): I agree with you that treating Harry that way wasn't a good choice. Then again, we couldn't have expected Snape to be an angel after years of trauma. I think it counts that he left Harry his dreams to let him know he was good as a way to repay him. Harry ended up with the thought of Snape as being a good person. He named his own son after Dumbledore and him and that says (to me, at least) that Harry forgave Snape for those treatments and that he left that behind.

Snape asked Dumbledore to protect the Potters. Had his intentions were only to protect Lily, he would've said so. As for the bullying, there's no need to write every year that James bullied him. IMO, I think Rowling just wanted to make the point that James did bully Snape whether it was for a year or more; he just did it. Of course, I'm not saying Jame is evil or anything and he did save Snape's life once (as it is said on the last chapter of the first book) and Snape's protection towards Harry were also because of that. Snape questioned Jame's actions (Prisoner of Askaban) and who wouldn't, right? Someone who bullied you saves you, then you would either think he saved you because he HAD to or because he WANTED to. When I read a book, I look deep into the meaning and connect the whole thing. So what I say is my own interpretation based on the entire series and how Rowling describes characters and their pasts.

I understand now, it is merely your interpretation of canon. :) I took in the many other clues that JKR presented throughout the series and reached a different conclusion (the bullying was mutual) and that is why I asked. Thus for me, Snape's school years do not play a role in the redemption picture. But I understand we all look at these things distinctly.


I'm not saying James was truly evil and that he shouldn't be forgiven. They both did great things and I think we should forgive them because, they died doing the right thing. Dumbledore did say to Harry that Snape felt remorse, didn't he?

Yes Dumbledore did say that, but he did not specify what Snape felt remorse for. In DH, imo, we found out what he was speaking about. Snape's remorse was for Lily - and only for Lily, imo. Imo, Snape should have felt remorse for all of the consequences of his act - not just with respect to Lily in order to be redeemed.

Why would Rowling write about Harry naming one of his SONS after Snape, if Harry and Rowling didn't think Snape deserved an honor? You don't name your children after evil people so I think that is the key factor to Snape's true intentions and persona.

I respect your view, but if you are referring to the 'real word' - well people don't name their children for those who loathed them either. But JKR indicated Snape loathed Harry until he died, so Harry did just that. Some aspects of the HP series are fantastic - it is a magical fantasy series after all. Nonetheless, in terms of Snape's character, whether or not readers can similarly find Snape deserved that honor or deserved redemption is left up to each individual.

Btw, I do not think Snape was 'evil' at the end of his life. I believe he had a negative core personality and his treatment of others also left much to be desired, but he was not evil in the sense of Voldemort. However, I was discussing the redemption of his character. For me, that is all about remorse and repentance. As I said before, it is Snape, and only Snape, that had to find remorse in his heart for his past acts. There are no excuses or justifications that can replace that necessity, imo. I would like to find that Snape had remorse for his acts that led to James death and for Harry losing his parents - I have been actively searching for it and I have not given up hope. :)

I understand now, it is merely your interpretation of canon. :) I took in the many other clues that JKR presented throughout the series and reached a different conclusion (the bullying was mutual) and that is why I asked. Thus for me, Snape's school years do not play a role in the redemption picture. But I understand we all look at these things distinctly.




Yes Dumbledore did say that, but he did not specify what Snape felt remorse for. In DH, imo, we found out what he was speaking about. Snape's remorse was for Lily - and only for Lily, imo. Imo, Snape should have felt remorse for all of the consequences of his act - not just with respect to Lily in order to be redeemed.



I respect your view, but if you are referring to the 'real word' - well people don't name their children for those who loathed them either. But JKR indicated Snape loathed Harry until he died, so Harry did just that. Some aspects of the HP series are fantastic - it is a magical fantasy series after all. Nonetheless, in terms of Snape's character, whether or not readers can similarly find Snape deserved that honor or deserved redemption is left up to each individual.

Btw, I do not think Snape was 'evil' at the end of his life. I believe he had a negative core personality and his treatment of others also left much to be desired, but he was not evil in the sense of Voldemort. However, I was discussing the redemption of his character. For me, that is all about remorse and repentance. As I said before, it is Snape, and only Snape, that had to find remorse in his heart for his past acts. There are no excuses or justifications that can replace that necessity, imo. I would like to find that Snape had remorse for his acts that led to James death and for Harry losing his parents - I have been actively searching for it and I have not given up hope. :)


I totally agree with you. I also think there are no excuses for his past actions, but I admire Snape because, he changed them. I believe there are parts in the books that it is up to the interpretation of the reader. I like it that Rowling gave us that freedom to interpret things. I wouldn't like to say "Snape was good because Rowling said so." On the contrary, I like saying that IMO, Rowling shows us things through small points. Snape's love for Lily was apparently so strong that he didn't give Harry to Voldemort even though, he didn't like James. So, it makes me think that Snape had more love deep inside, than the hate and the urge to get revenge no matter what. He made terrible mistakes, his past was dark and there is obviously no justification. But, I try to understand why he did it and what he did in the end for himself and for others. I'm not saying because you have a trauma, you have an excuse to go and do the wrong thing. But, when you have a trauma your mind changes entirely and sometimes you really don't realize what you're doing plus you confuse what's good and what's wrong.

Snape's character is very tough to analyze and it is a very important character. Maybe Rowling's feelings towards Snape are totally different from ours, but I like the fact that she left doors open for us to interpret.

1) We don't know every single thought of Snape so we can only try to think what he could've thought. I think because of his dark past, he developed a different state of mind.

Agreed!:D

Oh yea I also don't agree the fact that he agreed with Voldemort to kill James in order to save Lily's life. Then again, I think his revenge wanted to take over and he actually thought Voldemort was going to spare Lily. After he learned that Voldemort really was going to kill the Potters, then I think he realized it wasn't a good thing to give Jame's life for Lily's so he went to Dumbledore and asked him to protect them all (the Potters).

I would agree that it was not Snape who planned to kill the Potters- he simply reported a prophecy while Lily was only a few months pregnant and it was the Dark Lord who figured out which family and child it referred to and decided to go after them. But when Snape goes to DD, he confirms in his sllence that he asked the Dark Lord for Lily's life in exchange for James, a talented Order member, and Harry, the boy who will supposedly vanquish him:

"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother in exchange for the son?"

"I have--I have asked him--"

"You disgust me," said Dumbledore..."You do not care then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

I underlined the parts that I felt were significant here- Snape had no qualms about the death of an innocent man or baby, only Lily, and it sounds to me as if he had asked the Dark Lord to spare Lily, in exchange for the lives of a pesky and rather talented rebel and a little boy who could cost him his empire. I think Snape came to Dumbldore, the only other person to consciously hear the prophecy, knowing that the Dark Lord wanted the whole family, and was willing to do anything in his power to keep Lily safe. I understand that Snape knew enough of Dumbledore's nature to understand that Dumbledore would want to protect the entire family; it is his actions before their conversation and his general lack of concern about the life of a child that brought me to my previous conclusion.

I think it counts that he left Harry his dreams to let him know he was good as a way to repay him. Harry ended up with the thought of Snape as being a good person. He named his own son after Dumbledore and him and that says (to me, at least) that Harry forgave Snape for those treatments and that he left that behind.

Harry himself has an amazing heart- he saves both Draco and Pettigrew, ans I agree that he himself was able to overlook Snape's actions, forgive him, and appreciate his bravery and loyalty to Dumbledore. Harry is just not the type to hold grudges, and he has thick skin, so, yeah, I can see how Harry would decide to name his child after Snape, who spyed for the Order and helped Harry accomplish his task.

-LilyPod

. I'm not saying because you have a trauma, you have an excuse to go and do the wrong thing. But, when you have a trauma your mind changes entirely and sometimes you really don't realize what you're doing plus you confuse what's good and what's wrong.

Snape's character is very tough to analyze and it is a very important character. Maybe Rowling's feelings towards Snape are totally different from ours, but I like the fact that she left doors open for us to interpret.

I agree, I too like that we are left to interpret. For me personally, I don't get the "trauma" you are speaking of from canon. There is one memory in particular where Lily is defending the Marauders and James - where neither Snape or Lily mention Snape's supposed traumatization - and there must be seven points during the conversation where the issue should have logically been raised since they were friends. If it were true that he was traumatized, that particular scene makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. It is in DH, The Princes Tale, AM. Ed. page 673 - 674 and begins with "...what about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?" if you want to reference the scene.

More importantly, JKR has spoken about Snape's tranference of his loathing for James upon Harry outside of canon - many, many times, and yet not once as she mentioned that Snape was victimized - not once. Why? As you have pointed out, it would really assist to serve in justifying Snape's behavior as not based on pure loathing, but rather on deep psychological issues.

Instead, following SWM, JKR made it clear in the DH memories that Snape saw bullying as 'just a laugh' - when it wasn't happening to him, but rather to Mary MacDonald. She indicated that Snape hexed James at every opportunity in 7th in OOTP and she indicated in HBP that the embarassing lifting spell, Levicorpus, that James used was Snape's own invention. How did James learn it? How did any of the many people using it that year learn it? Obviously, Snape had to have introduced it. Then SWM showed us James and Sirius were just the same, with the exception that they used only light magic - which made it no better. Finally, Dumbledore claims their releationship was similar to Harry and Draco's relationship. There are more scenes, but that highlights my point. In my opinion, looking at it objectively, I see mutual enemity and bullying between them all.

Thus that psychological justification for Snape's later behavior does not work for me, personally. You know, if we could trace all of Snape's poor choices and behavior to a deep, psychological trauma in his past, it really lifts his burden with respect to the choices he made throughout his life. It would play deeply into the notion that Snape acted without volition because his mind was disturbed and thus he could not make rational decisions. It would render his subplot meaningless because his choice to follow Voldemort and his later choice to follow Dumbledore were not the product of a rational mind, but rather irrational momentary decisions made by a deeply disturbed individual. That person would not require redemption, but rather hospitalization, imo. I do not believe that is the way that JKR intended for us to interpret Snape's character - imo of course. I respect your opinion if you see this distinctly, but we would likely just have to agree to disagree. :)

There isn't anything about Snape's "trauma" in the book. I'm just looking at it through that way. In real life for example, we see let's say a man who abused his wife. When they go to trial, they find out that the man had a very troubled childhood and thus, those visions could've led to him committing crime; however, he was quite aware of what he was doing.

It's hard to explain the things about trauma, but I'll do my best to try to explain what I mean when I say that Snape sometimes acted that way because of a trauma. When a person is traumatized, that person's mind can get distortioned; however, that doesn't mean everything they do is irrational. In the case of Snape, he didn't fall in love with Lily because he had a trauma and he was irrational, but he did treat Harry that way because he reminded him of James' bullying. IMO, Snape joined Voldemort because he felt at home. I believe he knew Voldemort was evil, but I think it was his own choice to follow since it was the only place he felt welcome. I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this well :no:. His decision to join Dumbledore was because he knew what was the right thing to do and IMO, realized that being evil wasn't really the choice he wanted to make. His "cold" personality would come from his past. He had to see (apparently) his father abuse of his own mother, then grew up and got bullied (and he probably bullied back) so those events led him to become a "dark-cold" person on the outside.

I hope that sort of explains what I mean by 'trauma'. There is not actual quote or reference. Rowling didn't really tell us how his past affected him, except for James' bullying so again, we can only assume and try to come up with many theories regarding his possible motives.

I don't really like to participate in debates or anything and anyway ignisia is already giving very satisfactory replies to you High_Lion but honestly these quotes of yours triggered me into giving them



If he truly loved her, he would have seen she loved James and Harry and not let those two things she loved dearest to be taken away.

Well that was what he did didn't he? He did what he could to not let " two things she loved dearest to be taken away." And I am talking about the 1st war too. He came to Dumbledore and agreed to spy on Voldemort so that Lily be kept safe and if it takes to safe James or Harry as well (only because they matter to lily, even if he hate James) in this process he was ready for it.

“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her – them – safe. Please.”

This quote gives a very direct answer to your question really. I don't think it can be claimed that he truly didn't love her.





Snape was a clever wizard. He'd have also known for sure that Lily was pregnany and expecting a child at that date. He would have known for sure exactly what that prophecy would entail by telling the Dark Lord. It would have been more wise to keep the prophecy to himself, that way fully ensuring the Dark Lord would have never targeted the Potter's.

Wait a minute here. Are you trying to say that Snape knew that potter's will be targeted? Because if you are I am sorry to say that it is pure speculation and an incorrect one at that. It is clearly said in the books that he did not know that the prophecy will turn out to be about Lily's son. If he had known it he would have never ever have told it in the 1st place.

"Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - had no way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest for power were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father ... You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry." (HBP pg. 549/512)

Snape made a mistake by not realizing it can mean Lily, being clever doesn't mean you can't make mistakes really. Dumbledore is a clear example of it.


All The Best:)

Ah... the redemption debate... While I believe he was redeemed long before DH, I also believe he completely turned during the year he spied for DD during the first war... yet it is open to interpretation when exactly he may have felt remorse for the actions he may have committed during his hardcore DE days... However for me he was definitely not a DE since the first war because of DD's testimony which I quoted a few pages ago, I feel like I would be repeating myself... DD says "he is no more a DE than I am"... DD is comparing himself to Snape. That IMO shows that Snape did regret his actions and had no longer any DE ideas... and he does regret ever having been the direct or indirect cause of anyone's death... During the series he definitely values human life, but no he doesn't express his ideas... which is why he was such a mystery in the first place...
And I think it would be hypocritical of Snape to feel sorry that James is dead... James bullied him and did all he could to snatch Lily from Snape... why should he feel sorry for his death, but he can regret being indirectly involved in it...and feel remorseful for it....
Furthermore when he does mention James... IMO it isnt because he wants to belittle and berate Harry.... it's because being reminded of James (through Harry's reckless actions in PoA) is painful and Snape can't control himself...and spews out bitter words....Similarly in the end... when he mentions James... he is undergoing tremendous stress for having killed his only mentor and friend and then again Harry exhibits "James" like behavior.... and again Snape loses control... He loses control again for obvious reasons during SWM.... and during the Sirius, Remus confrontation in PoA.... no where else do we see Snape losing it so badly.... the bullying did affect him which is why DD says that "some wounds run too deep for healing". You don't just get over it.... especially if you are constantly reminded of that fact everyday.... which is what happened with Snape....

Well that was what he did didn't he? He did what he could to not let " two things she loved dearest to be taken away." And I am talking about the 1st war too. He came to Dumbledore and agreed to spy on Voldemort so that Lily be kept safe and if it takes to safe James or Harry as well (only because they matter to lily, even if he hate James) in this process he was ready for it.


Hi Aisha. :)

I believe High Lion was referring to the bit before Snape conceded that Dumbledore could keep - her - them safe.

If we analyse this scene with Snape:

Dumbledore says: "if she means so much to you...surely Lord Voldemort will spare her?"

Now, imo, Dumbledore could have stopped speaking there if the point he was making was: 'why come to me? why don't you ask your own master for help?' But I do not think that was his point because he goes on to say:

"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"

Now why would Dumbledore say that to Snape? Imo, Dumbledore was confirming Snape's character and motive. That is, the exact nature of Snape's emotions for Lily. Were they selfishly oriented? Was Snape thinking in terms of his own happiness or Lily's? That is what I believe Dumbledore was testing and Snape fell right into his trap:

"I have - I have asked him - "

I believe Dumbledore knew he was going to answer that way and Dumbledore's immediate response is:

"You digsust me," said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice.

Remember we are in DH, Harry has heard the contempt in Dumbledore's voice when he was in battle with Voldemort at the DOM - so we are talking a lot of contempt here. I believe it is because Dumbledore's suspicions about the nature of Snape's emotions for Lily were confirmed. Snape was not thinking of Lily's happiness, but his own; he wanted Lily to be safe and that would make Snape happy - it certainly would not make Lily happy (her family would be dead). But Dumbledore does not stop there, he says:

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Imo, Dumbledore was giving Snape a clear opportunity to jump in and immediately say: 'NO! I want them all saved of course, I am just deeply concerned over Lily because she was my dear friend'. Dumbledore would have to concede that he'd been mistaken in such a case. But Snape confirmed Dumbledore's thoughts because instead of insisting that he wished the entire family saved:

"Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore."

What is behind Snape's silence? Why was this silence written into the scene? What could he have possibly been contemplating? Imo, Snape realized that Dumbledore had trapped him and had seen through his plea to his underlying desire: Lily. He knew what Dumbledore wanted him to say, but in his heart, he did not want to say it. I believe that Snape was thinking along those lines because of his response:

"Hide them all, then," he croaked

The "then" is conciliatory - as if he has grudgingly allowed Dumbledore to bully him into agreement. And he croaks out the statement, as if his true desire, which is ravishing his soul, is causing him emotional turmoil when making the statement. Why? Imo, because Snape does not wish to make this concession; his original plea to Voldemort would result in Lily being brought to him once the Dark Lord had spared her. However, Dumbledore's plan absolutely banishes that possibility. Why do I feel Snape's mind is still toiling with all of this? Because of his final statement:

"keep her - them - safe. Please."

Despite conceding to keeping the entire family safe, Snape still slips and says "her" instead of "them". Because "her" is what is really on his mind.

So that is my interpretation of that scene and that is why I agree with High Lion's interpretation. I respect your interpretation as well, although I believe it differs from mine. :)

I respect your opinion and as I believe you are intimating, I feel that these factors together with Harry's ultimate forgiveness of Snape were enough for some people to feel that Snape was redeemed.

However, even while recognizing those things that Snape did later in life, I feel that one of the most important features of redemption is feeling remorse for one's act, together with the consequences of that act. Snape did feel remorse for his act, imo, but only because it resulted in Lily's death. I believe he had great remorse for that particular consequence as well. But I don't feel Snape had remorse for his act or the consequence of James death; nor do I feel he had remorse for his act and the consequence that resulted for Harry - the death of his parents. I question whether Snape had remorse for all of those killed while he was a Death Eater - but I would be willing to concede that.

While I truly believe that the fighting between the Marauders and Snape in their youth was mutual, even if I felt it was one sided, I would still hold the same requirement for Snape with respect to his feeling remorse for James and Harry. The two matters are independent of one another imo, in that Snape's redemption is totally dependent on the state of his soul and his ability to find remorse. If he could not find that remorse in his heart, for whatever reason(s), Imo, Snape's redemption cannot not be complete, imo.

The issue for me then becomes: is there remorse to be found in respect? I think there is because if one respects someone, one would feel remorse for playing a part in their death. That is what provoked a search of canon to find indications that Snape respected James (and Harry). I think the single grandest stumbling block is in HBP when Snape said to Harry: "and you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!" And earlier in that same scene, Harry says Snape is acting cowardly and Snape retorts that it is Harry's father, James, who is a coward (according to Snape, for acts taken when James was 15 years old).

Snape said this subsequent to all of his conversations with a living Dumbledore and imo, it is difficult to square Snape having respect for James and speaking of him in that manner. If one truly feels remorse for assisting in causing the death of another, can one speak in that way about them? I consider that Snape was in utter turmoil, he'd just killed Dumbledore who he respected and possibly cared for to some degree. And yet, in the midst of that bewilderment, despair and emotionally charged situation, James comes to Snape's mind???

Harry then calls Snape a coward and cries out that Snape should kill him as he killed either his father or Dumbledore - canon is unclear. It cannot be known who Snape felt Harry referred to because Snape's mind was full of his enemity for James, yet he had just *killed* Dumbledore. In either case, Snape then lashed out and struck Harry with a whipping curse (HBP Flight of the Prince). With all of the reminders in that moment that Snape had played a role in Harry's parent's death, can respect for Harry be found in light of such an act?

So even if I can discover signs that there is respect and thus remorse on Snape's part for James and Harry, I would have a very difficult time overcoming this little bit of canon in finding ultimate redemption for Snape.

In the case of Harry, there is the fact that Snape gave his life to give Harry a chance at killing Voldemort. However, again a stumbling block arises when one notes Snape's final action in life. Snape declared "look at me" and according to JKR, he loathed Harry at that time. Thus, imo, at the moment of his death, his desperation to see Lily's eyes one last time was so great, he was willing to use Harry as a channel to do so. Once more, that indicates to me a lack of respect for Harry's person.

One could interpret the 'look at me' more liberally to mean Snape was asking Harry to look at the memories. Analysing that interpretation: Because Snape knew there was mutual loathing between them (JKR's statement and DH Sacking of Severus Snape) and that Harry had no respect for him at that moment (believing him a loyal Death Eater), Snape may have felt it was imperative to impress upon Harry the importance of viewing the memories. That, imo, is not a sign of respect, but a sign of need - Snape had every reason, as he had always had, for wanting to see Voldemort Vanquished for good.

In sum, for me personally, Snape's redemption rests on a thin thread of hope that the above factors can be reconciled in some way to show that Snape did have respect for (and thus remorse for his act toward) James and Harry.

Well, remorse imo occurs generally when we are directly affected by our own wrong actions. So long as we are not personally affected, everything is justified like Snape tells Lily that what Avery and Mulciber did was all in good fun, while it wasn’t. But when Voldemort decided to act the same way towards Lily, Snape also disagreed.

We see similar situations in the book itself. Dumbledore was okay with controlling the muggles for whom he had no affection, by justifying to himself that it was all for the greater good, until Ariana was killed and he was forced to wake up to see what he had almost become. It took Kreacher, for Regulus to change. It took a mudblood comment imo for Lily to stop being friends with Snape!

Snape has no status, recognition or values taught to him in his childhood and being continuously bullied by those who did have everything he lacked in Schoo also did not help. Every little bit went to make the man he became. But running through all this was something very pure; that was the love he felt for Lily. It was not obsessive or possessive; he stepped back after SWM and stays away. There is no interaction with Lily at all. Ever! At least until now there is no evidence to say they met or spoke with each other after SWM.

But he feels remorse. As I had written in another post, the very fact he came to Dumbledore was proof that he wanted to keep James and Harry safe. He of all people knew Lily inside and out. he knew that Lily would never ever give him the time of day and that he could not at that time take the place of James and Harry. Ever! He never tries, we don’t see anything to tell us Snape still went about cajoling Lily and trying to wean her away from James.

I really think Snape is huge on respect, mainly because he has never ever received it all his life. He knows that he and Lily, even as friends are finished. Again the fact Dumbledore says Snape disgusts him, surprises me, because he can hardly go to Voldemort and say,

‘My Lord, I love Lily but she loves her husband and child, so please spare all of them for my sake, even though at this time I am but a lowly death eater!’ I mean Voldemort would have tried all his most imaginative curses on him, before he finally killed him. the only thing he could say that was that he desired Lily, not even that he loved her and I am really surprised that Voldemort even agreed to that. I honestly cannot see Voldemort of all people agreeing to spare a woman who has defied him three times and now is the mother of the child of the prophecy and the wife of another man who had also opposed him thrice. And one who is in the Order of the Phoenix.

Again remorse is not a tangible, solid thing. it is a feeling of intense pain and humiliation and helplessness for the actions that has caused so much horror. While initially Lily was the catalyst that started the ball of remorse rolling, slowly that change that was wrought in Snape became a big thing. it changed his outlook and his soul. It changed his perspective and his vision! For me, that’s true remorse and every act that he has committed as a death eater and later even as a spy comes under this. How can it not?

True remorse cannot be placed into slots; for example by saying that Snape only felt remorse for Lily, because imo that is regret and not remorse. Remorse concerns your own actions and not the death of others. Snape re-evaluated his own actions and felt remorse for them. The catalyst was Lily’s death. But the remorse was his – not someone else’s death.

Remorse was Snape’s affair – he did not have to love everyone he killed. While the actual process of remorse started because of his actions that brought about the death of the one he loved -- that remorse slowly changed him to save the lives of others and regret his past actions and feel remorse for for all his actions and regret the man he was in the past – that imo did not demand that he love, respect or care personally every single person with whom he interacted with, and did harm to, as a death eater.

I really think Snape is huge on respect,

I appreciate your view. What I am looking for is canon evidence that Snape had respect for James - that is what the long post was all about. :)


True remorse cannot be placed into slots; for example by saying that Snape only felt remorse for Lily, because imo that is regret and not remorse. Remorse concerns your own actions and not the death of others. Snape re-evaluated his own actions and felt remorse for them. The catalyst was Lily’s death. But the remorse was his – not someone else’s death.


I agree with you, Snape must feel remorse because his action of giving the prophecy to Voldemort was taken with the idea that "some nameless child" would be targeted by Voldemort. However, considering Snape knew the two people who died, we can say, Snape should have felt remorse for his act that caused Lily's death and for his act that caused James' death. I believe Snape felt remorse for his act only because it resulted in Lily's death. In other words, if James and Harry alone had been targeted, Snape wouldn't have gone to Dumbledore or asked Voldemort to spare either of them.


Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?
JKR: No. He definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy.

Thus, what I am looking for is something in canon that shows Snape felt remorse for his act in light of the fact that it resulted in James being killed - not Lily. I know he felt remorse for what he had done in her regard. I believe that a Showing of respect for James by Snape would also assist in showing Snape had remorse for him. While I respect your opinion, it does not assist my search because I am looking for book canon rather than overall interpretation. :)

My point i'm trying to pursue is that Snape only feels regret for Lily's death.
Not the others, therefore this is not true remorse.
He is not sorry James is dead, we can see this because he still hates him.
He only protects Harry because Dumbledore asks him to for Lily's sake.

I appreciate your view. What I am looking for is canon evidence that Snape had respect for James - that is what the long post was all about. :)


Why would it matter that Snape respect James? I can't imagine that he did, and I would hope he didn't. From his perspective, James was a despicable bully. I think it would be completely unrealistic to expect the victim of James's bullying to respect the bully. Emotionally unhealthy, in fact. For Snape to respect the person who physically assaulted him simply because "he exists" would be a dreadful thing.

Yet Snape is remorseful that his actions resulted in people dying. Lily's death, of course, is the greatest regret of his life. But Snape spent the last half of his life fighitng Voldemort and his murdering ways. He may not have loved all of those whose lives he saved, but he worked to save them all the same.

To me, it's a person's actions that define them, rather than feelings or words. Snape's actions were honorable and correct. He rose above his feelings in his ongoing effort to do what was right.

I don't know how you can say his actions are honourable.

He only does it because of Lily.
Nothing else.

Being honourable is about doing the right thing, without thought of consequence or motivation.

To me, if Lily lives, he's still a Death Eater.
She doesn't and dies, his actions are full of guilt that she, and she alone died, he feels no guilt of the deaths of James.

He shows no remorse for any other victimes, only Lily. His actions are compltely for Lily, he doesn't care about anything else only Lily.

Not honourable.

He shows no remorse for any other victimes, only Lily. His actions are compltely for Lily, he doesn't care about anything else only Lily.

And if that was the case - why bother and try saving Lupin during the air raid, for the sake of an example...?

And if that was the case - why bother and try saving Lupin during the air raid, for the sake of an example...?

For Harry's sake.

He doesn't know which one is the real Harry does he.
Therefore he doesn't know Lupin hasn't got Harry.
He could make an educated guess, but he wouldn't know for 100% which one is which.

He only does it because of Lily.
Nothing else.

Being honourable is about doing the right thing, without thought of consequence or motivation.

How can you do "the right thing" without motivation? For every action there is motivation. Snape's was love. Good enough for me.

He shows no remorse for any other victimes, only Lily. His actions are compltely for Lily, he doesn't care about anything else only Lily.

Not honourable.

I see things differently. I think he does care about other things and other people, especially over the years he spends in Hogwarts - I can certainly see very clear signs of him caring about Dumbledore, for example. The point with his character is, in my opinion, that he does change. There are several contrasts built in the structure of the chapter "The Prince's Tale" which point to this process of change - him calling Lily "mudblood" is contrasted to him forbidding the use of this very word in his presence, regardless of who it is about. His evident cowardice on that hill (although I interpret it as desperation) is contrasted to Dumbledore calling him brave in the Yule Ball scene. His concern only with Lily's life and nobody elses in the hill scene is contrasted to his statement that he svaes everyone whom he can save. The change is definitely there, in canon. And we have his remorse confirmed on on page several times (Dumbledore's asseryion in HBP, "I wish I were dead" in DH come to mind first). For me, this si what constitute redemption - remorse and change. I think both are traceable in Snape's character development.

So let's try again. I do not want to see character bashing, a sequel of the Snape vs. Marauders debate, disregard of staff requests and discussion of thread logistics. Owl a moderator if you have any questions!

I strongly advise you to reread:
How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. (”http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=106994”)
REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021)
In-Thread Moderator Warnings. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=110755)

Here is a quote to be start the discussion anew:

"Well, there you have it!" he said, tottering back onto the platform. "That was a Disarming Charm - as you see, I've lost my wand - ah, thank you, Miss Brown - yes, an excellent idea to show them that, Professor Snape, but if you don't mind my saying so, it was very obvious what you were about to do. If I had wanted to stop you it would have been only too easy - however, I felt it would be instructive to let them see . . ."

Snape was looking murderous. Possibly Lockhart had noticed, because he said, "Enough demonstrating! I'm going to come amongst you now and put you all into pairs. Professor Snape, if you'd like to help me -"

They moved through the crowd, matching up partners. Lockhart teamed Neville with Justin Finch-Fletchley, but Snape reached Harry and Ron first.

Time to split up the dream team, I think," he sneered. "Weasley, you can partner Finnigan. Potter -"

Harry moved automatically toward Hermione.

"I don't think so," said Snape, smiling coldly. "Mr. Malfoy, come over here. Let's see what you make of the famous Potter. And you, Miss Granger - you can partner Miss Bulstrode."

Malfoy strutted over, smirking. Behind him walked a Slytherin girl who reminded Harry of a picture he'd seen in Holidays with Hags. She was large and square and her heavy jaw jutted aggressively. Hermione gave her a weak smile that she did not return.

"Face your partners!" called Lockhart, back on the platform. "And bow!"

Harry and Malfoy barely inclined their heads, not taking their eyes off each other.

"Wands at the ready!" shouted Lockhart. "When I count to three, cast your charms to disarm your opponents - only to disarm them - we don't want any accidents - one ... two ... three -"

Harry swung his wand high, but Malfoy had already started on "two": His spell hit Harry so hard he felt as though he'd been hit over the head with a saucepan. He stumbled, but everything still seemed to be working, and wasting no more time, Harry pointed his wand straight at Malfoy and shouted, "Rictusempra!"

A jet of silver light hit Malfoy in the stomach and he doubled up, wheezing.

"I said disarm only!" Lockhart shouted in alarm over the heads of the battling crowd, as Malfoy sank to his knees; Harry had hit him with a Tickling Charm, and he could barely move for laughing. Harry hung back, with a vague feeling it would be unsporting to bewitch Malfoy while he was on the floor, but this was a mistake; gasping for breath, Malfoy pointed his wand at Harry's knees, choked, "Tarantallegra!" and the next second Harry's legs began to jerk around out of his control in a kind of quickstep.

"Stop! Stop!" screamed Lockhart, but Snape took charge.

"Finite Incantatem!" he shouted; Harry's feet stopped dancing, Malfoy stopped laughing, and they were able to look up.

A funny scene overall.

Analysing Snape here, I would say that he knew Draco pretty well and knew that he would behave in a cunning manner, in the tradition of Slytherin. Lockheart's words had put Snape's back up and as shown in other scenes, imo, Snape tends to behave in a vindictive manner in such situations. Malfoy did as expected and took an early shot and the enemies went at it as expected with Harry returning fire. While I believe that Snape took some enjoyment in pairing up Malfoy and Potter (the 'cold smile'), and the consequences he suspected - and did - follow: Malfoy using harsher hexes in the tradition of his father; and Harry using more prank-like hexes in the tradition of his father (nice parallel to JKR) with Malfoy getting the upperhand in that regard - I believe Snape also realized it would cause a bit of an uprising in the class that would get back at Lockheart for the earlier misguided remarks he made about the potions professor. As always, Lockheart would have a time of it trying to control his class. :lol:

A well written scene full of humor and enlivened by the expected behavior of the characters. :)

Ah, Snape terifying Lockhart only with his look... I've always loved that scene, even back in the beginnning when I had no special attitude towards Professor Snape. It definitely shows the impression his personna makes on people.

I've wondered about the snake Draco produced - did Snape tell him to do it? I still can't answer this question.

"Well, there you have it!" he said, tottering back onto the platform. "That was a Disarming Charm - as you see, I've lost my wand - ah, thank you, Miss Brown - yes, an excellent idea to show them that, Professor Snape, but if you don't mind my saying so, it was very obvious what you were about to do. If I had wanted to stop you it would have been only too easy - however, I felt it would be instructive to let them see . . ."

Snape was looking murderous. Possibly Lockhart had noticed, because he said, "Enough demonstrating! I'm going to come amongst you now and put you all into pairs. Professor Snape, if you'd like to help me -"

They moved through the crowd, matching up partners. Lockhart teamed Neville with Justin Finch-Fletchley, but Snape reached Harry and Ron first.

Time to split up the dream team, I think," he sneered. "Weasley, you can partner Finnigan. Potter -"

Harry moved automatically toward Hermione.

"I don't think so," said Snape, smiling coldly. "Mr. Malfoy, come over here. Let's see what you make of the famous Potter. And you, Miss Granger - you can partner Miss Bulstrode."

Malfoy strutted over, smirking. Behind him walked a Slytherin girl who reminded Harry of a picture he'd seen in Holidays with Hags. She was large and square and her heavy jaw jutted aggressively. Hermione gave her a weak smile that she did not return.

"Face your partners!" called Lockhart, back on the platform. "And bow!"

Harry and Malfoy barely inclined their heads, not taking their eyes off each other.

"Wands at the ready!" shouted Lockhart. "When I count to three, cast your charms to disarm your opponents - only to disarm them - we don't want any accidents - one ... two ... three -"

Harry swung his wand high, but Malfoy had already started on "two": His spell hit Harry so hard he felt as though he'd been hit over the head with a saucepan. He stumbled, but everything still seemed to be working, and wasting no more time, Harry pointed his wand straight at Malfoy and shouted, "Rictusempra!"

A jet of silver light hit Malfoy in the stomach and he doubled up, wheezing.

"I said disarm only!" Lockhart shouted in alarm over the heads of the battling crowd, as Malfoy sank to his knees; Harry had hit him with a Tickling Charm, and he could barely move for laughing. Harry hung back, with a vague feeling it would be unsporting to bewitch Malfoy while he was on the floor, but this was a mistake; gasping for breath, Malfoy pointed his wand at Harry's knees, choked, "Tarantallegra!" and the next second Harry's legs began to jerk around out of his control in a kind of quickstep.

"Stop! Stop!" screamed Lockhart, but Snape took charge.

"Finite Incantatem!" he shouted; Harry's feet stopped dancing, Malfoy stopped laughing, and they were able to look up.

This scene has alway made me giggle :rotfl:

Snape and Lockhart are such polar opposites- I think Snape, clever as he is, knew that Lockhart wasn't all he was cracked up to be, and couldn't stand his fake-jolly nature. He knew he was the better dueler, so he couldn't stand Lockhart's constant self-praise and determination to be Prince Charming in every situation, always acting as if he was The Best, but never actually showing it- Snape puts alot of stock in visible merit.

I do think he partnered Harry and Draco on purpose; he probably knew that they did not get along, and he took the oppurtunity that he could to make Harry uncomfortable and make his life more difficult, because he enjoyed doing so to the boy he despised- you can see his pleasure as he is "smiling coldly." Obviously, though, Snape did not want the situation to get out of hand, and he freed Harry of the hex before any damage was done.

Snape and Lockhart scenes are so funny! :lol:

-LilyPod

I've wondered about the snake Draco produced - did Snape tell him to do it? I still can't answer this question.

It would appear that he did. The book describes Snape gliding over "like a large and malvolent bat" and substituting Potter and Malfoy for Neville and Finch, then Snape "whispered something" in Malfoy's ear. "Malfoy Smirked" after hearing what Snape had to say and then conjured the snake during the next exercise. Imo, the words I have placed in parenthesis, together with Snape's words and behavior: "'Don't move, Potter', said Snape lazily, clearing enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake" would tend to connote that Snape did it in an effort to give Harry a hard time. (CoS, The Duelling Club, Brit. Ed. 145).

But why did Snape instruct Draco to conjure a snake, I wonder? Did he suspect that Harry could speak parseltongue? Producing a snake out of thin air was difficult magic to ask of a second year, and could have been dangerous. Hmmm...perhaps Snape was curious to see if Harry could speak the language, if he had a link to the Dark Side or some kind of special power- Snape does tell Bella at Spinner's End that he was curious about Harry, though, of course, he might have been lying to her.

He's so difficult to understand, IMO.

-LilyPod

I think he wanted to test Harry, on every possible level. That's why it makes no sense to pair Harry up with Hermione - where's the use in two friends who follow the rules of the game practising, when Harry is endangered by people who will NOT play fair? He's got to learn that, as soon as possible. Frankly, I was astonished that Harry hadn't expected Draco to strike before the count of three - he already knows enough of Draco to grasp so much. Chivalery doesn't stand much of a chance against cunning, if they don't even start in the same moment, and Harry must learn that, and quickly.

I don't think that Severus told Draco to conjure up a snake, for exactly one reason - who expects a Second Year to be capable of doing such a spell? In McGonagall's classes, they're still trying to transform animals into another form, and most people struggle badly. Surely, that'd be easier than conjuring a living animal out of nothing. So I think that Severus said something to Draco along the lines 'surprise him! Do something he doesn't expect and catch him off-guard!' - and Draco smirks because he's thinking of a spell that daddy dearest showed him lately, and which he must have practised for quite some time to deliver it so easily in that situation.

I agree with Fleur... I think it was as much a surprise for Snape as it was for Harry to see the snake...
Regarding the scene... i think it showcases the contrast between Snape and Lockhart... while Lockhart is all smiles and talk and no substance, he also has no ability to command or control the class... Snape on the other hand hardly speaks... he simply looks "murderously" at Lockhart to shut him up :D... and as mentioned in the situation "takes charge" merely by un-hexing Harry and not saying a word!! It shows how easy it is for Snape to command and control a situation with minimum effort while Lockhart shouts about but is unable to do a thing...
Snape's got style....
Regarding separating the trio.... I don't really think it very vindictive of Snape... I had professors and teachers constantly separating fast friends because
a) It could get distracting and especially in a situation like a duel it would serve no purpose to have friends duel each other...
b) It forces one to look beyond your own social circle and interact with people who aren't like you...because that's how it is in the real world... You may not like the people in your team but you need to work with them....or in this case deal with them

Regarding Snape smiling coldly.... I attribute this to Harry filter.... Harry in the series can never believe that Snape has his best interests at heart even when the evidence is staring him at his face.... Escaping ..... in case I have said anything too controversial....:whistle:

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

I believe there are several reasons for this. The most important factor in his choice to become a DE was most probably his upbringing. We have seen that he had a bitter childhood and that his parents had a bitter relationship which, only too often, has direct consequences on the child.

Snape found solace though, in the form of Lily Evans. He loved her and this love in my opinion nurtured the good side in him.

However, the bad side to Snape unfortunately overrode him in the end. The bad side that was doomed to be the dominant role in his actions as soon as he put the Sorting Hat on his head. The Hat seen all of the bad experiences of his childhood, and the negative effect it had on his emotions. And thus he grew up in Howarts surrounded by the Slytherin environment, and the future Death Eaters. It would have been nearly impossible for him to renounce the ways in which he was living.

When it came to the time where Lily had the big argument with him, about his dark deeds. I think that drove him over the edge, up until that point he was very confused as to whether he wanted to be a good or bad person, he sook to Lily- the nicest person he knew, for her approval on whether or not the choices he was making were right. The trouble is he expected her to be attracted to the dark and powerful new side to him whereas she was repelled.

I beleive this rejection drove him over the edge to become a Death Eater out of bitterness. He had always been a cold person thanks to his upbringing but he was nice around Lily. When the detachment from the nice solace he found in Lily occured he descended deeper into his dark ways.

On a lighter note though, I happen to find his coldly sarcastic and dry sense of humour very funny throughout the books, for example I was reading POA just yesterday and I love the part where it says:

A few cauldrons away, Neville was in trouble. Neville regularly went to pieces in Potions lessons; it was his worst subject, and his great fear of Professor Snape made things ten times worse. His potion, which was supposed to be a bright, acid green, had turned-

'Orange, Longbottom,' said Snape, ladling some up and allowing it to splash back into the cauldron, so that everyone could see.

The way thats written just makes me laugh, and the way he lets the potion fall back into the potion for the height of dramatic effect :lol:

That was a bit off topic, but you've gotta love the vindictiveness of Snape.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I'm actually not sure. I think Snape was good underneath, but im not sure he would've had the guts to go to dumbledore or someone to be a spy or help stop voldemort.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
I dont like his treatment of Sirius or Harry, but his murder of Dumbledore is completely justified in my opinion.Dumbledore wanted to die, and Snape fullfilled his wishes. it was good thing. it stopped some of dumbledore's suffering, and a lot of other people too. but he should never have been so cruel to harry or sirius. Well, at least not Harry. Sirius shouldn't have been so mean to Snape, but Snape sholdnt have been so cruel to Harry or Neville, etc. They never did anything wrong to him, and so what if Harry looks like James. Forget that and look into his eyes to find Lily. I'm sure Lily won't be too happy to see Snape again for being so cruel to her son. But i guess she'll get over it.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
that i have no idea. Once he got into Hogwarts and became a slytherin, i guess his friends sort of made him want to be one. im not sure he ever hated "mudbloods" so much. what he liked was dark magic, so maybe that was the reason why, to be able to use his abilities without everyone he knows hating him. or at least to get some protection when he uses it.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
They don't justify his treatment on Harry and Neville. On the contrary, I feel it makes it worse the way he treated Harry. He is doing all this for the woman he loves, and yet, this is how he treats her son, the one she died to save. Instead, he just looks at him and sees his worst enemy. I wonder if he would still act this way if Harry was a girl and looked like lily. Why couldnt he look at harry's eyes and see lily, like he wanted to in the end, when he died? And as for his treatment for neville, i never really understanded this. He was kind of like Neville's relatives, trying to squeeze out his magic, except he wasnt' trying to help Neville, at least i dont think so. the fact is that he was horrible, and Neville didnt' deserve any of it. I guess it could get very frustrating, but try to help him, not make him worse. I wonder how well Neville did on his NEWTs and OWLs. probably better than he did in snape's classes.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?
all he did was beg. I guess thats ok, but I would've taken action and try to save the entire family after i found out. Lily would never have been happy after her entire family was gone, she would've never forgiven herself. I would've gone with voldemort and tried to stop him, but then there wouldnt have really been much of a story. or at least i wouldve tried to wear a mask or something and try to protect them or warn them on when voldemort was coming, so they would be prepared.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?
i personally think that he was really heroic on the way he was a spy. but besides his death meaning that he would never talk to Harry afterwards, and that he would be in wizard afterlife trying to explain to Lily and James why he was so horrible to their son, it doesnt affect his character much, to me anyways.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
His major strengths would be he's an extremely good liar and spy and extremely brave, but his flaws are that he's unfair and cruel.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
I really think so. He may not have shown it, thinking harry would hate him, or if he told, harry would ruin him in voldemorts eyes, but i realy think he did. (wow, i just realized that may be why he was so cruel, um, ok im not sure i hate him as much for being mean to harry, but i still hate him for being mean to neville.)

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
i actually think subsitte father figure. from what ive read, snape's father was never too nice to him, so dumbledore, who afterwards was, probably was like a second father

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
i think it was a good thing that snape was put in slytherin. it made him sly and cunning and a powerful wizard. he would have definitely made different choices. if he was in say, gryffindor, he would not go into the ranks of the Death eaters, he may have been the one to marry lily, he would not be as sly and cunning, and there would most likely not be a book called harry potter.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
he was a spy, he put himself in danger lying to voldemort, he is extremely brave, but in a more slytherinish way. he is a hero because of the way he got info from voldemort, the way he put himself in danger.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?
I think he did redeem himself in harry's eyes. as for my eyes, kind of. he shouldnt have been so evil to the gryffindors, but he was ok in the end. he's still one of my favorite characters though, the way he was so sly is really cool to me.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
- I think that it all had something to do with the way he was brought up, as Mugwump3091 said. His parents were fighting, and it affected Snape quite a bit. No one really cared about him at home, and then he became friends with Lily and she was really the first person in his life to actually care. That, I think, would be one of the main reasons he fell in love with her. Being friends with Lily did pull him toward the good side, but when he started hanging around with the other Death Eaters it pulled him away to the point where Lily said they'd chosen different paths and they stopped speaking. This could be why he became a Death Eater; the only person that ever really cared about him didn't want anything to do with him for the way he was going, and he just gave up and went dark, only to go back to the good when Lily's life was threatened.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
- After the revelations, I better understood his treatment of Harry and Neville. However, I still do think that Snape was rude/mean (or whatever you'd like to call it) to Harry because he was James Potter's son, but was only semi-nice to him because he was Lilly Evans(his only love)'s son.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?
- He did not fully redeem himself in my eyes, I still think that he could have been a bit nicer to Harry, wheither was trying to help him or not by acting the way he did. I don't think that he fully redeemed himself in Harry's eyes either, because of the way that he treated him in his 6 years at Hogwarts. He did respect him a bit more though, I think, because of everything that he did to try and protect him because he's Lily's son. Harry respected his bravery above everything else, I think.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I think if lily had not died he would not have joined the good side. I think the only reason he turned against voldemort was because he threatened lily. in my opinion snape never really believed in what the death eaters did but stayed with them because he wanted to be accepted by someone.
Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
I think his murder of dumbledore was the rightthing to do. he did not do anything that dumbledore did not wish him to, he just helped an old man who was dying have a quick, painless death. As for his behaviour towards Sirius, i can see why he was like that. Sirius bullied him as a teenager and i think that his treatment of sirius is, if not right, justified. Sirius was just as bad to snape as snape was to him. I think he was cruel and unfair to harry, harry never did anything to make snape have a grudge against him. In my opinion just because james was a bit of an idiot when he was a teenager that gives snape no right to punish harry for it.
Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
I think that snape wanted to be accepted and surrounded by something impressive. when he lost lily he felt he needed to be a part of the only other friends he ever had.
How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
I don't think they change my opinion much. we already knew that snape hated james and that was probably the reason that snape hated harry. we already knew that snape could be a bully and quite unfair. I think that the revelations show how snape's early life greatly affected his bullying of harry and neville.
What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?
i think that how he behaved showed how much he cared about lily. He begged voldemort not to kill her, in my opinion that's quite risky because voldemort could be angry with him for loving a muggle born. He begged dumbledore, and i never really saw snape as a begging person. I think it was cruel and stupid of him to ask that only lilys life should be spared. I don't think lily could ever be happy without james and harry, and she would never forgive snape for asking voldemort to not kill her.
What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
HIs major strengths would be his ability to hide his emotions, lie and spy and of course the fact that he is just a wizard of amazing magical ability. his weaknesses would be that he can act cruel and unfair and that he lost lily because he always wanted to be a part of something cool and impressive and was ignorant of how that would affect other people.
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
I don't think so. in my opinion he did not and just protected him for lily. he hated him for looking like james i think. If he ever cared for him i think it would be for lily's sake only.
What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I think that they were friends, i don't think snape ever felt he wanted or needed a second father figure. Snape did not always like dumbledore, at times he appears to hate him. but when he saves dumbledore by trapping the curse in his hand i think that definitely shows that snape did care.
Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
I'm in two minds about this. Snape was sly and cunning and that is great and in the end that ended up saving harry, but he was also exceedingly brave. Had he been a gryffindor he would not have been a spy. I think him and lily would have ended up together as the reason they weren't friends was mainly that snape was in with the death eaters. he would have been happy in gryffindor i think, but then voldemort would possibly nevr have been defeated as there would be no chosen one. so i think it was right that he was in slytherin but he would have had a better life in gryffindor.
There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
He put his life on the line countless times to spy on voldemort, he eventually died. He died for someone that he loved even though they were long gone and never truly loved him. I think that is great bravery
Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?
He completely redeemed himself in my eyes. DH justified most of his actions and it made me feel so sad for him, he was sooooo cool. My favourite character by miles. I think he redeemed himself in harry's eyes. especially as he gave his son severus as a middle name.

Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?
He completely redeemed himself in my eyes. DH justified most of his actions and it made me feel so sad for him, he was sooooo cool. My favourite character by miles. I think he redeemed himself in harry's eyes. especially as he gave his son severus as a middle name.

I agree that he redeemed himself for Lily's death.
But for the death of James and the hunting of baby Harry, then no.
He still feels no regret for the death of James. And to hate Harry purely because he is James' son, is a very vindictive thing to do.

I know people keep using the "Lately, only those i couldn't save" quote, but not many people have mentioned that this took place in HBP. There's no canon to suggest he feels sorry in anyway for the killings he caused, saw or commited as a DE.


With reference to a previous post, about honourable intentions.

To be honourable, is to do the right thing without motivation.
That's what honour means. Snape only does what he does from the guilt of Lilys death, not because it's the right thing to do.

There's no canon to suggest he feels sorry in anyway for the killings he caused, saw or commited as a DE.

There is also no canon for the occurance of such killings, apart from the Potters, which he caused unintentionally.

To be honourable, is to do the right thing without motivation.
That's what honour means. Snape only does what he does from the guilt of Lilys death, not because it's the right thing to do.

I don't understand how you can do anything without motivation.

I think there is absolutely no point is discussing whether he was redeemed or not... because whenever it happens we seem to be going round in circles... I think it's the right of everyone to express whether or not they believe he was redeemed and why....

I only wished to comment on the poll results... It's nice to see Harry overtaking Narcissa Malfoy....

I am actually up for another scene... unless the lockhart scene isn't done with yet...

Edit: Yay!! it's my hundredth post... and hopefully a peaceful one.

There is also no canon for the occurance of such killings, apart from the Potters, which he caused unintentionally.

I meant deaths he's seen, by his own wand or not. He openly admits he has seen people murdered. I think we can also safely assume that he would have been involved somehow with the Death Eaters. It's not clear but there's a couple of years between leaving Hogwarts and the prophecy, so Snape must have done LV's bidding for those years.



I don't understand how you can do anything without motivation.

Easy. Simply because it's the right thing to do.
James, being a pureblood, could have quite easily not joined the OotP, and not have fought and defied Voldemort, and probably been left alone. However, it's the right thing to do, to fight, and that's what James does.

We see this in Sirius, when he's only 11. He doesn't think it's right that muggles, and muggleborn's are targetted, for no reason. He defies his family because his moral beliefs teach him that his family are wrong.

It's your set of morals that make you honourable, not an event or person.

Easy. Simply because it's the right thing to do.

And who is to say what defines right and wrong? Different people seem to have different ideas about those. This is the reason, for example, of why people disagree about Snape so much. Some, like me, think he did do the right thing, ging over to Dumbledore because of his love. To me, this fits my own understanding of "right". Others see it differently. So it's not remotely as simple as "just doing the right thing". Evevryone is entitled to their own interpretation of what is right and what is wrong in the characters' actions. For me, personally, Severus did do the right thing, and for a very good reason, too - love.

Easy. Simply because it's the right thing to do.


Doesn't JKR, through Dumbledore, set things up in terms of what is right, rather than what is easy? Doing the right thing is almost never easy. Snape's lot, throughout this series, is very difficult, yet he never fails. He is the epitome of conscious honor in his desire to fight Voldemort.

Easy. Simply because it's the right thing to do.

And who is to say what defines right and wrong? [...] Evevryone is entitled to their own interpretation of what is right and what is wrong in the characters' actions. For me, personally, Severus did do the right thing, and for a very good reason, too - love.

You're right. It's entirely subjective. :) I don't think that two of us here would or could agree on the question in a broader sense. I doubt that discussing it further will lead us anywhere but in circles.

My point on the right thing was simply whether or not Snape's actions were honourable. I define honourable as doing the right thing because of your moral belief's regardless of consequence, events or otherwise.

In line with this, i class Snape as not beind honourable. His catalyst throughout is Lily's death, that is for certain.

If you take Harry, who IS honourable we see why i don't class Snape as honourable. Harry doesn't need a catalyst to do the right thing, as seen in incident's with Malfoy and Wormtail in PoA and DH. Malfoy in DH attacks him in the RoR, but yet in escape Harry risks his life for no actual gain, other than not letting Malfoy die.

Wormtail we see in PoA, where he saves his life in the Shack. With all the spite he should be feeling, he still does the right thing. He explains that it's because his father wouldn't want his friends to be killers, but we see throughout the series that Harry never sets out to kill someone, even with Voldemort he uses the expelliarmus in an attempt for remorse rather than killing.

In DH we see him do it again. Wormtail has just tried to kill him, until he mentions the life debt, and then before his eyes Wormtail his about to die. Even though seconds ago Wormtail has just tried to kill him, Harry still doesn't want anyone to die and attempts to save him.

It's Harry's morals that he doesn't really want anyone to die. Similar to James, when he saves Snape. You could say that it's just to save Sirius' skin, but we see the familiar echo in Harry, so it's not simply a coincidence.

I would agree that although Snape's actions are brave, I do not find him to be an admirable person because he lacks moral conviction- he did not mind the death of an innocent family, IMO, he would not have changed sides if the Longbottoms had been targeted, because he did not personally care for them, nor did he care for all those who died at the hands of the Death Eaters while he participated in assiting their regime of terror.

My problem with Snape is that his actions always seem to be incited by concern for himself and his own world rather than moral principle- we see this when he joins the Death Eaters out of desire for power and acceptance, and again when he is willing to see James and Harry die, in exchange for Lily's life.

JMO;)

-LilyPod

1. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

The first part is hard to answer. I get the feeling he was trying to move on after Hogwarts, considering he and Lily were on opposite sides, fighting against one another, and Lily was in constant danger of dying and yet that wasn't motivation enough for him to turn to the good side. It was only when it was pretty much certain she would die that he realised what was about to be lost.

I think if she had never been threatened by the Prophecy, he would not have turned to the good side. Like I said, there were a few years in which Lily was a target of the Death Eaters (being a member of the OotP and a muggleborn) where Snape did not change sides, or question his position amongst the Death Eaters.

2. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

Before DH, I was adamant that Snape was on the good side, and I held that view throughout the book. Thing is (this might sound strange) I'd have prefered his motivation to have occured through his own morals, after witnessing the horrors of Lord Voldemort and switching sides because of it. That's what I was hoping for, and I was looking forward to knowing why Dumbledore trusted him. Not that love isn't a good thing, but it's disapointing to know he wouldn't have changed sides if Lily had never been threatened, that he would not have cared about the family he was indirectly killing by delivering the Prophecy.

Well, his murder of Dumbledore was completely explained. I have nothing to say on that.

As for his treatment of Sirius, I could understand him being angry and feeling hatred towards him after believing he'd betrayed the Potters, which lead to Lily's death. But I always got the feeling, in PoA, that his hatred was stemming mostly from their school days. It makes sense with his character, because Snape doesn't let go of old grudges easily, as we've seen, but I thought that was a bit off. To be fair, Sirius did almost get him killed. But I'd have expected him to be angrier about the Secret-Keeper thing. Not to mention, he was listening in for a while, and wouldn't it have seemed odd how none of the trio were attacking Sirius, just talking to him? Wouldn't Snape want to find out about what really happened and send the person actually responsible for Lily's death to Azkaban?

3. Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Well as Jo put it, insecurity and such. He wanted to be part of something big and powerful. Though that's no excuse; he could have proven himself powerful and be on the good side. I think a big factor in that was his love for the dark arts, which was shared by his school friends who were aiming to become Death Eaters. When he was in school, he was into the blood-superiority thing, which was also a factor, I'd imagine.

Then there was the fact that he thought it would impress Lily. Now that just baffles me. She was pretty straightforward about her hatred of the Dark Arts, and she was a Muggleborn. No matter how blinded he was by the Dark Arts, could he not see that Voldemort was exterminating Muggleborns left and right? I'm confused by that one.

4. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

It didn't change my views on them. I still feel they were completely unjustified. With Neville, it was very much an in-class bullying problem. He knew Neville was terrified of him (his boggart), and yet he only treated him worse and worse. I can't buy the argument that it was all done to toughen him up, because it was clearly only weakening Neville's spirit, and when one approach fails after years of trying, it's pretty logical to stop that approach. Jo's said it herself that Snape was a bully, and he was vindictive and could be cruel. I think his treatment of Neville was simply an abuse of his power as a teacher.

With Harry, the only thing we know now after DH is the added factor that Snape loved Lily, and so his jealousy over her marriage with James would only increase his hatred of Harry. I can understand that, but I don't feel it's justified at all. IMO, he chose the easy way out, by hating the son of his enemy, instead of choosing the right way, in showing, at the very least, indifference to the son of the woman he loved. It seems hatred won out over love in this case.

5. What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy?

His reaction actually bothered me. I shared Dumbledore's disgust when Snape was ready to offer up James and Harry if only to save Lily (especially considering James risked his own life to save Snape, a few years before, and Harry was a baby). I know, in the end he did agree to save them all, but it was only after Dumbledore's "you disgust me". When Dumbledore questioned him about letting James and Harry to die so that Snape could get what he wants (as per Dumbledore), he remained silent for a moment, and that silence speaks loud and clear that he did not, in fact, care at all if Lily's husband and child died (IMO). I think that's a fair assumption to make considering had it been any other family, Snape would not have come to Dumbledore to protect them.

6. What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

It's hard to imagine what Snape would have done had she been threatened yet lived, so I'm unsure how much her death affected his full turn to the good side. As it is, it's pretty evident her death was life changing for Snape. It made him realise where his loyalties lay - with Dumbledore, the man who did what he could to protect her, as opposed to Voldemort, the one who killed her.

Even though I'm not a fan of Snape, I felt really quite sad for him when I read his reaction immediately after Lily's death. It was a rare moment to see Snape so vulnerable, and it spoke of how deeply he felt for Lily.

7. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

His obvious strength is his ability to hide his emotions - for some, it's a flaw, but for Snape it was a definite strength. He was able to fool the most accomplished legilimens in the world, to his his true loyalties and his love for Lily (although, I doubt Voldemort would have understood it anyways). He was also very determined - he stopped at nothing to take Voldemort down. And, also, he showed great loyalty to the memory of Lily, and to Dumbledore, before and after his death.

His biggest flaw, IMO, was his love for the Dark Arts. If it had not been for that, he would not have befriended Mulciber and Avery, he would not have accepted the path to becoming a Death Eater, and he would have gained many more good influences in his life. Another big flaw was his failure to let go of old hatred - if he'd been able to let go of his hate for James, his work for Dumbledore would have been much easier, because it wouldn't have been such a pain to protect Harry. And lastly, to me, his abuse of power in the classroom was another big flaw. I know a lot of teachers can be horrible in RL, but it doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.

8. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

In the poll, I did not vote for that option, because I wasn't sure what was meant by "care". I feel, much like Jo said, that Snape loathed Harry all the way up to his death. I don't think he ever came to feel any positive emotions for Harry. However, if "care" can mean a simple interest as to what happens to that person, as in "I care if he dies or not, because I want to do this for Lily", then yes, I believe he did come to care for Harry.

9. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I think he truly cared for Dumbledore in both senses of the word. I believe Dumbledore was the only person who became nearly as important to him as Lily. I think the similarity between his friendship with Lily and his friendship with Dumbledore is that both accepted him despite what society thought of him. Both were kind to him despite his background and appearance, and I think that meant a great deal to him. So I think Snape saw Dumbledore as a friend, which was why he was so angry at him for putting on the ring.

10. Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

I think he fit in Slytherin. He had many of the traits of Slytherins, good and bad. I think people forget that Slytherin isn't an evil house - just most of the Death Eaters were in Slytherin. Just because Snape was on the good side doesn't mean he couldn't still fit in Slytherin. Take Slughorn for example: he fought on the good side, and yet he was the head of Slytherin.

If he'd been in another house and yet still loved the Dark Arts, I feel he would have ended up on a similar path. It was his love for the Dark Arts that blinded him from reason.

11. There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

I think he's sort of an anti-hero. He did heroic things, but IMO he wasn't exactly a good person. He was extremely brave by being around Voldemort so often when he was secretly taking him down with the Order.

12. Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's?

I think he redeemed himself for the most part in Harry's eyes, otherwise Harry wouldn't have named his child after him.

For me, I still find it hard to see him as all that redeemed. I would have been more confident in his redemption had he turned to the good side out pure good morals. I'm still unsure how he stood, morally, at the end of the series. For all the things he did not show remorse over, I don't feel he deserved redemption. But for becoming a Death Eater and sending Lily to her death, I feel he did redeem himself (especially considering, had he been give the chance, he'd have made different choices in his youth). I'm still thinking about this. I mean, Harry had quite a bit of time to come to his final opinion of Snape.

he did not mind the death of an innocent family, IMO, he would not have changed sides if the Longbottoms had been targeted, because he did not personally care for them, nor did he care for all those who died at the hands of the Death Eaters while he participated in assiting their regime of terror.

But Snape isn't the only character to act this way. Narcissa certainly had no problems following Voldy and his crew, until her son was in danger.

Of course there are other characters who rise above this and who's morals are intact, but not everyone runs that way. And that's certainly not everyone in real life. How one decides to judge Snape is one's own personal opinion and I respect that. But it is true that one not caring for something until it hits them personally is a very common human trait. I think that's a big reason why I choose not to be too harsh on Snape on this action, because I think people in general are guilty of this to some extent.

Narcissa certainly had no problems following Voldy and his crew, until her son was in danger.

Of course there are other characters who rise above this and who's morals are intact, but not everyone runs that way. And that's certainly not everyone in real life. How one decides to judge Snape is one's own personal opinion and I respect that. But it is true that one not caring for something until it hits them personally is a very common human trait. I think that's a big reason why I choose not to be too harsh on Snape on this action, because I think people in general are guilty of this to some extent.

I agree with your general conclusion here- you are right that turning a blind eye to something until it affects you personally is a common human trait- and we do see that in HP with Narcissa, whom I adore, and who did turn against the Dark Lord only when her son was in danger- and she attempted to protect Harry because of her love for Draco. Although I'll try to stay away from talking about her in the Snape thread:eeep:

My problem with Snape is not only that he stood by the Dark Lord but that he was an active participant in the Dark Lord's regime, as a Death Eater, and that he reported the prophecy, a piece of information he knew would mean the death of a little baby, when the baby was anonymous- it's as if he didn't mind the idea of killing a baby in theory (At least I assume he thought the baby would be killed), and he didn't even mind the death of the baby when it had an identity, as "Potter's son." I respect your opinion, but I found this very, very, coldhearted of him, to simply shrug about the death of a baby, or at least be willing to exchange him, as long as the woman he loved was safe.

-LilyPod

Regarding Snape smiling coldly.... I attribute this to Harry filter.... Harry in the series can never believe that Snape has his best interests at heart even when the evidence is staring him at his face....
There is no Harry filter. JKR is the narrator. She is the one who described Snape as smiling coldly, since that would show the reader a bit of his personality. And this can't be too surprising since she has told us in serveral interviews that Snape is cruel and embittered.

This thread is not about the Harry filter. Let's keep posts on Snape as depicted in canon and interviews.

True Lilypod... perhaps he didn't care about an innocent family when he was a DE, but his following actions, once he has started to work for DD are indicative of the fact that he would care if an innocent family was targeted. That is the whole point of his story... he changed.... Lily was the beginning... but he does care about others once he turns.

Then there is Dumbledore's testimony...during the DE trials of the first war...

"He is no more a death eater than I am"...


We don't know when Snape let go completely of his bloodist views... but according to DD whose judgement if not anything else I do happen to trust...
he had turned completely once Voldemort fell...he might have even turned completely before that, during his year as a spy in the first war... we don't know... we can I either give him the benefit of the doubt (Like me ) or judge him harshly.

Snape is someone who has trouble expressing his emotions verbally... but he shows what he stands for by his actions... his actions were to heal and protect the students, DD and even perhaps the teachers and others ...this had nothing to do with Lily...Lily was his inspiration...fighting for Lily or fighting for the Light... they were the same to him... Lily was his Light... she was inside him...intrinsically a part of him which was why the doe was his patronus...

Regarding Harry being more honourable... High_Lion... does remember that we have the unique advantage of seeing inside Harry's head. Harry like Snape never verbalizes his feelings...Which is why no one knows the extent to which Harry has been mistreated by the Dursleys... no one can guess he can hear voices in the second year and look at him distrustfully, they think of him as attention-seeking... (it's not just Snape who thinks this...the whole school thought so in GoF including Ron)

Comicbookworm... The whole scenario to me is described from Harry's viewpoint...it is a matter of debate whether or not that phrase was in third person or whether it was Harry's viewpoint... to me it is something that Harry perceives as cold... The other times when JKR describes Snape was smiling when Harry is not present in those scenes is Spinner's End and The Dark Lord Ascending... in both cases the adjective cold is not attached... For all we know Snape might have a sense of humor and might be looking forward to an interesting dueling session.

The way thats written just makes me laugh, and the way he lets the potion fall back into the potion for the height of dramatic effect
I find all the Lockhart / Snape interactions to be hilarious since Snape can't tolerate Lockhart, and he shows us that disdain. And, as readers, we also know that Lockhart is a fake, so we enjoy seeing him taken to task. However, I don't find scenes where the students (especially Neville) are ridiculed or made the butt of jokes, since I, personally, don't think that teachers should make fun of students.

Back to the scene...

I think he wanted to test Harry, on every possible level. That's why it makes no sense to pair Harry up with Hermione - where's the use in two friends who follow the rules of the game practising, when Harry is endangered by people who will NOT play fair? He's got to learn that, as soon as possible. Frankly, I was astonished that Harry hadn't expected Draco to strike before the count of three - he already knows enough of Draco to grasp so much. Chivalery doesn't stand much of a chance against cunning, if they don't even start in the same moment, and Harry must learn that, and quickly.

Well to be fair, it was supposed to be a disarming contest and Malfoy not only moved in early, but used a 'hit you in the stomach with a saucepan' hex. Then Harry hit him back with the tickling hex.

I think it was at that point that Snape would have interceded if his intentions were merely to assist Harry to learn about the cunning of those who do not play fair. In reality, Snape was the only one who could intercede because Lockheart was hopeless. :lol:


I don't think that Severus told Draco to conjure up a snake, for exactly one reason - who expects a Second Year to be capable of doing such a spell? In McGonagall's classes, they're still trying to transform animals into another form, and most people struggle badly. Surely, that'd be easier than conjuring a living animal out of nothing. So I think that Severus said something to Draco along the lines 'surprise him! Do something he doesn't expect and catch him off-guard!' - and Draco smirks because he's thinking of a spell that daddy dearest showed him lately, and which he must have practised for quite some time to deliver it so easily in that situation.

That is a possible interpretation. Snape may have merely said 'surprise him', but how would Snape intend for Draco, a second year, to do that? If such were the case, I would imagine that Snape knew Draco had an arsenal of rather non-conforming hexes passed on to him by his father and knew the nature of them as well (although perhaps not the specifics).

I do not think that Snape believed Harry would be able to defend against any spell of that type. Snape's lazy enjoyment of watching Harry facing the snake would seem to indicate that he expected that Draco would do a spell of that kind - even if he did not suggest it himself - and I do not understand why Snape did not immediately step in and cause it to vanish. Snape's point would have been made - if suprising Harry was his goal. Afterall, at that point, Snape was unaware Harry was a parseltongue and he knew that Harry would not be able to handle the snake. Instead, he kicked back and took pleasure in Harry's distress before indicating to Harry not to move and he'd take care of it.

Looking at the scene objectively and from a deeper analytical perspective, I would speculate that Snape, at that particular moment, was seeing Harry as Harry!James - as an attention seeking boy who Snape believed thought himself a big hero. Harry's request of Lockheart to be shown the defensive spell again and Malfoy's taunting response to that - combined with Harry's arrogant denial "you wish" - was indeed Harry acting much like I imagine James would act in such a situation and would only reinforce Snape's belief.

Imo, Snape wished to give Harry a fright that he would be unable to deal with because it would make Snape feel good to be able to step in and play 'hero' himself by rescuing Harry!James from the snake that he knew the child was unable to handle. Not to make himself look good as the students would expect Snape to be able to handle it; but rather to be the one to take Harry down a peg before his friends. Like his father, Harry twarts Snape's efforts in this regard after Lockheart made the situation worsen (with his counterspell :lol:) by speaking in parseltongue with the snake. I believe that if Harry had controled the snake in any other way, Snape would have been livid - as that would be James Potter incarnate, however, Harry's talent was so unexpected - and so remniscent of Voldemort - that Snape's mind was distracted by other, more pressing thoughts - thoughts that would send his mind away from his old rival and to a need to speak with Dumbledore!

I find all the Lockhart / Snape interactions to be hilarious since Snape can't tolerate Lockhart, and he shows us that disdain. And, as readers, we also know that Lockhart is a fake, so we enjoy seeing him taken to task. However, I don't find scenes where the students (especially Neville) are ridiculed or made the butt of jokes, since I, personally, don't think that teachers should make fun of students.
As a teacher I say "AMEN" to that! There have been big issues discussed here and I enjoy reading everyone's view but what always bothered me was the way Snape humiliated children. It's emotionally very painful to be made fun of in front of peers, at any age, but especially in the sensitive pre and teen years and the effects often last a life time.

As a teacher I say "AMEN" to that! There have been big issues discussed here and I enjoy reading everyone's view but what always bothered me was the way Snape humiliated children. It's emotionally very painful to be made fun of in front of peers, at any age, but especially in the sensitive pre and teen years and the effects often last a life time.

It's nice to have a real teacher commenting here:) I would agree that Snape's teaching methods were unacceptable and cruel. IMO, he severly abused his power in the classroom by picking on his students for apparent pleasure- he seems to enjoy employing snarky humor to humiliate his students, particularly the Gryffindors, whom he seems to single out and treat unfairly (A case in point- sentencing Harry and Ron to detention for classroom fighting and hexing Goyle, but letting Malfoy off scot free for hexing Hermione and making fun of Hermione's teeth:() I see nothing wrong with being strict and holding your students to high standards, like Mcgonagall, but IMO, Snape crossed the line by mocking and bullying his students, particularly Neville, who Snape treated worse after finding out how much Neville feared him. :no:

I would attribute his pleasure in bullying his students to his own bitterness; I think all that had gone wrong in his own life led to resentment of the world around him and, IMO, he took those feelings out on his students, who were easy targets, and whom he was allowed to bully without consequence- according to Jo, Dumbledore did not mind Snape's teaching methods.

JMO;)

-LilyPod

Dumbledore couldn't have known about most of the nasty little asides in the classroom, or at least not those that didn't warrant a detention or points taken from Gryffindor. I would guess those kinds of things required a report of some kind - a report Dumbledore would have seen. Hogwarts students did not make a habit of complaining about teachers, so it's unlikely that day-to-day ridicule reached Dumbledore's office.

I would love to read Snape's conversations with Dumbledore after Sirius escaped in PoA and Snape didn't get his Order of Merlin award.

Dumbledore couldn't have known about most of the nasty little asides in the classroom, or at least not those that didn't warrant a detention or points taken from Gryffindor. I would guess those kinds of things required a report of some kind - a report Dumbledore would have seen. Hogwarts students did not make a habit of complaining about teachers, so it's unlikely that day-to-day ridicule reached Dumbledore's office.

I would love to read Snape's conversations with Dumbledore after Sirius escaped in PoA and Snape didn't get his Order of Merlin award.

I agree that Snape's day to day classroom antics may not have reached Dumbledore's ears, but Dumbledore was aware that Snape's behavior toward, and treatment of the students was inappropriate. JKR said "Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life; horrible teachers like Snape are one of them!" (Barnes and Noble Chat, October 2000).

Nonetheless, I believe Dumbledore would have put a stop to some of the incidents we saw if he had known about them; he did waylay Snape from behaving inappropriately when he was present (Snape's attempts to have Harry expelled or receive tougher punishment following the flying car incident and the S. Shack incident with Sirius and Remus). In comparison, imo, Dumbledore would have put a stop to Umbridge's torturous detentions with Harry if he had known about them.

To be honourable, is to do the right thing without motivation.
That's what honour means. Snape only does what he does from the guilt of Lilys death, not because it's the right thing to do.

Guilt in the sense you are using it here, is the feeling that one has done wrong. If it is indeed Snape's motivation, it is precisely what you would consider an honourable one, since he is acting only based on his sense of right and wrong.

I do think guilt (or, to use the word actually used in the books, remorse) is an important motivation for Snape.

I would agree that although Snape's actions are brave, I do not find him to be an admirable person because he lacks moral conviction- he did not mind the death of an innocent family, IMO, he would not have changed sides if the Longbottoms had been targeted, because he did not personally care for them, nor did he care for all those who died at the hands of the Death Eaters while he participated in assiting their regime of terror.


Yes, when Dumbledore said "You disgust me", my reaction was, "Go, Dumbledore!". What the rest of the chapter shows, though, is that this is not where Snape ended up. It seems clear to me that the older Snape, who risked his cover to save the life of a man he disliked (Lupin), was someone who acted on moral principle.

On a lighter note though, I happen to find his coldly sarcastic and dry sense of humour very funny throughout the books,

Me, too! Though my very favorite example of it is quite dark.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

Why would it matter that Snape respect James?

Because Snape's collusion with Voldemort resulted in James' death. I was speaking of a respect for humanity that includes this individual - nothing more than that. It is a topic of personal interest to me, but I realize everyone won't be interested in it. :)



Me, too! Though my very favorite example of it is quite dark.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

That is a dark one. :lol:. While from an analytical standpoint, Snape's comments must be looked at distinctly; from a purely reading-for-pleasure standpoint, many of his comments were quite funny - as were some of Voldemort's and Umbridge's. Bascially, JKR has a knack for humor.

I voted that Snape cared for the following people:

1. Lily--He obviously LOVED her and it showed.
2. Harry: I'm trying to think of how to explain this. Though it's clear Snape didn't love Harry at all, I do think he came to care for Harry's health and well fare. Snape knew Harry was being raised by the Dursleys and knew how cruel Petunia Dursley could be. I think on some levels it bothered him that she was treating her own Nephew, Lily's Son like garbage.
I think Snape cared about Harry's health and well being. The comment Severus made to Albus during the meeting in his Office in "The Prince's Tale" is a good example. The scene when Snape first says "So...so the Boy must die". Even though it's written that he said it calmly, I also get a sense of sorrow here. Okay, I know he "thought all these years, we were protecting him, protecting him for her...for Lily". Dumbledore then replies "We have been protecting him because it's been essential to Teach him, to raise him. To let him try his strength.....So that when he does set out to meet his death, it will be truly over, Voldemort will truly be DEAD!" Snape, a man who is normally calm, cool and collected, loses it. Snape's horrified and "You have kept him alive so he can die at the right moment." Then says "You have been raising for him like a Pig of slaughter." If he had NOT cared on any level for Harry, he would haven't said anything. So I think through caring for Lily, Snape, on some level cared for Harry, even if he didn't acknowledge or realize it.
3. Draco and Narcissa Malfoy: Look at how nice he was to her compared to Bellatrix. Severus mocks Bellatrix, pushes her buttons, gets nose-to-nose, meets her insult for insult, etc. Yet he comforts Narcissa, eases her anguish. I also think Snape sees a younger version of himself in Draco. In Spinners End, Narcissa tells Snape he's Draco's favourite teacher, etc.
4. Dumbledore: Severus could be himself and didn't have to pretend in front of Dumbledore. He could put his guard down, show his "real self". The "My word Severus, that I shall never revel the best of you" is a huge hint at how much Snape trusted Dumbledore and vice-versa in Dumbledor'e iron clad trust in Snape. I think Snape felt safe with Dumbledore, safe to express his concerns. This makes me wonder if he may have seen Dumbledore as the Father he wished he had had when he was a young Boy.


Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case? Your first question is kind of hard to answer. If Lily had managed to survive, she would have to have made major changes. I don't know, maybe changing her identity, etc. Plus, I think she may have known WHO told Voldemort about the Prophecy before they were forced into hiding. If not then, she probably would have found out. As genuine as Severus was in his remorse, I don't think Lily would easily forgive him for his part in Jame's death, etc. Even if she did. I don't think she'd trust him. So I don't see him as moving on. I think he'd always admonish himself for letting her go in the first place, etc. As far as him returning to the good side. I think he would have done this out of fear. He did this before Lily died, when he realized Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy and Lily. So I think Snape was maybe looking for a way out and saw this as his golden opportunity.
Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius. I also think guilt had a HUGE impact on Snape's actions. He was so guilt ridden over her death. His LOVE for Lily was a real surprise for me. I thought he would have had a crush on her, that maybe they were very close Friends at the most. But to see this Man break down into sobs, crying so hard he sounded like a wounded animal, declaring he wanted to die was gut wrenching. Seeing Severus breaking down and crying 15 years after Lily's death was moving. So you can safely say Severus Snape was capable of an incredible display of love and loyalty. This made me respect him more than I thought possible. Again, it validated my belief that there was more to Snape's "Cold Blooded Murder" of Albus Dumbledore. However, I see his treatment of Sirius as that grudge he couldn't shake. Plus when those two were in the same room, their hatred of each other was equally strong and venomous. They both needed a good slap on the wrist, a good "Oh Grow up". Honestly, the scene in Grimwauld Place between Snape and Sirius was like watching Jimmy Conors and John McEnroe play each other(very scary stuff) . They needed a moderator, or someone to say STOP IT! So do I think his love for Lily had any part of this childish behavior, I'm not sure. Maybe some of it--you know seeing her with THEM. But I think Snape's treatment of Sirius had more to do with the fact he was never told to "grow up"
Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater? I think I've answered this one before and I'm going to try not to play the "Blame Game" or Bash anyone. I think his upbringing and experiences of being bullied and ostricised at home and school had a huge part of it. He wanted to show the World how "Big and Bad" he was, but also wanted to be accepted. Severus wanted to fit in, to have that sense of belonging. So Voldemort/Tom Riddle played to his senses and told Snape he could be given the World, given a one-way ticket to Power and Acceptance. Have people look up to him. Unforunately Snape fell for it and once he learned the truth, it was too late.
How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series? They remained the same.
What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Volemort had targetted with the prophecy? Extremely brave! He risked his life when he turned against them, because a "Turn Coat", "Traitor".
What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character? His reaction to Lily's death was gut wrenching. I think Snape lived with survivor's Guilt. That was clear when he was overwhelmed with greif and said he wanted to die. I think her death caused Severus to go within himself and shut out the rest of the World, bite the hand which fed him and only let one other person, Albus Dumbledore in.
What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws? There is no denying he was very brave and Loyal. He put his life on the line everytime he went to Voldemort with "information".
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry? In his caring for Lily, yes, he came to care for Harry. This may sound strange, but I think Snape also cared just enough to make sure Harry didn't let his "Boy Who Lived" and "The Chosen One" status didn't get to his head. This may be the reason why Snape was so hard on him. Plus look at how he taught him Occlumency. The forewarning he gave him, the last-minute "Blocked again and again..." lesson he gave Harry AFTER he called him a Coward. So yes, he did come to care about Harry.
What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him? I think Snape and Dumbledore became friends and Albus became a substitute Father for Severus. That is why Snape trusted him so much.
Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere? No, I don't think Snape was Slytherin material. I see him doing the SAME thing Harry did when he was sorted. I believe the Sorting Hat would have had a similar speech for Severus, except it probably told Severus he'd "Do well in Gryffindor." I know he wanted to be with Lily, but again, being made fun of in your first few minutes before School by a couple of "Cool Kids" would make you want to make sure you didn't sit near them, befriend them, etc. So Snape's hatred for them wold make him adamant NOT to wind up in Gryffindor, even with Lily. So yes, I think Snape should have been sorted into Ravenclaw. He might have been less inclined to join the Death Eaters if this had happened.
There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero? His willingness to be a Spy, to be used by both Voldemort, and yes, on some levels Dumbledore. To go to Voldemort, give him false leads, risking having someone like Bellatrix learn the truth and going to Voldemort, was extremely brave. He is a hero on many levels. He did the very thing which hardly anybody else would do. He risked becoming the most Hated Wizard ever in Killing Dumbledore and making it look like it was done in Cold Blood. He lost his "home" Hogwarts, knew he had to watch his back and also knew that most likely the truth would NOT come out until after his death.
Did Snape fully redeem himself in your eyes? In Harry's? Yes for both.

Because Snape's collusion with Voldemort resulted in James' death. I was speaking of a respect for humanity that includes this individual - nothing more than that. It is a topic of personal interest to me, but I realize everyone won't be interested in it.

The idea that a victim should respect a person who has bullied and abused him for years is a remarkable one to me. I am glad we agree that Snape has no need to feel a special regard for James Potter. :)

Given Snape's statement to Dumbledore that the only people he has watched die are only those he could not save, I believe he does regret all the deaths that have occurred. Certainly he risks his own cover, therefore his life, in order to help Remus Lupin.



That is a dark one. :lol:. While from an analytical standpoint, Snape's comments must be looked at distinctly; from a purely reading-for-pleasure standpoint, many of his comments were quite funny - as were some of Voldemort's and Umbridge's.

I don't recall a single witty or darkly humorous comment from Voldemort or Umbridge. Certainly nothing that would compare with Snape, who has some of the best lines in the entire series. Not to mention an exquisite sense of timing. For instance:

"Hang on..." Harry muttered to Ron. "There's an empty chair at the staff table.... Where's Snape?"
"Maybe he's ill!" said Ron hopefully.
"Maybe he's left," said Harry, 'because he missed out on the Defense Against the Dark Arts job again!"
"Or he might have been sacked!" said Ron enthusiastically. "I mean, everyone hates him --"

"Or maybe," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's waiting to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train."

I voted that Snape cared for the following people:

2. Harry: I'm trying to think of how to explain this. Though it's clear Snape didn't love Harry at all, I do think he came to care for Harry's health and well fare. Snape knew Harry was being raised by the Dursleys and knew how cruel Petunia Dursley could be. I think on some levels it bothered him that she was treating her own Nephew, Lily's Son like garbage.
I think Snape cared about Harry's health and well being. The comment Severus made to Albus during the meeting in his Office in "The Prince's Tale" is a good example. The scene when Snape first says "So...so the Boy must die". Even though it's written that he said it calmly, I also get a sense of sorrow here. Okay, I know he "thought all these years, we were protecting him, protecting him for her...for Lily". Dumbledore then replies "We have been protecting him because it's been essential to Teach him, to raise him. To let him try his strength.....So that when he does set out to meet his death, it will be truly over, Voldemort will truly be DEAD!" Snape, a man who is normally calm, cool and collected, loses it. Snape's horrified and "You have kept him alive so he can die at the right moment." Then says "You have been raising for him like a Pig of slaughter." If he had NOT cared on any level for Harry, he would haven't said anything. So I think through caring for Lily, Snape, on some level cared for Harry, even if he didn't acknowledge or realize it.


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"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
"For him? shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum"
-----------------

Clearly, he states there that he does not care for Harry. He is still only doing it because he is Lily's son, and he is trying to redeem himself for her death.



Given Snape's statement to Dumbledore that the only people he has watched die are only those he could not save, I believe he does regret all the deaths that have occurred. Certainly he risks his own cover, therefore his life, in order to help Remus Lupin.


"Lately, only those whom i could not save" is Snape's quote. And it take's place around the time of HBP.

The lately would identify that he cares, or feels not for the deaths of previous, but only those of late.


And he doesn't risk his life to save Remus at all.
Remus has a HARRY on his on his broom. Which we all know is George.
Snape has no knowledge of which Harry is which. Therefore he has to try and save all 7 Harry's.

The idea that a victim should respect a person who has bullied and abused him for years is a remarkable one to me. I am glad we agree that Snape has no need to feel a special regard for James Potter. :)

Given Snape's statement to Dumbledore that the only people he has watched die are only those he could not save, I believe he does regret all the deaths that have occurred. Certainly he risks his own cover, therefore his life, in order to help Remus Lupin.


I don't think Snape ever regretted James' death- he is able to mock and insult James quite easily during the books, and right to the faces of Harry and Sirius , who loved and missed James. IMO, if he felt guilt or remorse about James' death, as he did about Lily's, he would not taunt and belittle the man he had a direct hand in killing- in this, I see a cold pleasure on Snape's part, especilly when he gets to rub bad memories of James right in Sirius' face at Grimmauld Place, when he knew that Sirius and James were best friends. IMO, that was very cruel of him, and it was equally cruel of him to taunt an orphan's dead father to his face as well, IMO, and shows a complete lack respect to the memory of a man who died at the hands of Snape's former master, who he has supposedly renounced.

I don't think that Snape needs to like James (in fact, I can understand why he didn't), but to show no concern or respect for his life (especially since James saved him from a terrible fate once) was cold. James didn't deserve to die for being a bully at fifteen, but it seemed that Snape didn't mind that he did, and was willing to watch it happen.

Just my opinion:)

-LilyPod

The idea that a victim should respect a person who has bullied and abused him for years is a remarkable one to me. I am glad we agree that Snape has no need to feel a special regard for James Potter. :)

Actually we don't agree on that, I believe Snape should have had a special regard for James as well as respect for him. And in fact, my research on the latter is premised on the former. :lol: However, I do respect your view and we can just agree to disagree on both issues. As I indicated, it is a personal project, but some here have been nice enough to furnish clues and evidence. :)

Given Snape's statement to Dumbledore that the only people he has watched die are only those he could not save, I believe he does regret all the deaths that have occurred.

I respect your view and others have expressed a similar idea. Unfortunately, that was said prior to Dumbledore's death, so that statement alone does not assist me in finding remorse for Snape with respect to his acts that resulted in dire consequences for Harry and James.

Certainly he risks his own cover, therefore his life, in order to help Remus Lupin.

I respect your interpretation, however, this too is actually debatable. Because Harry!George was on the broom with Lupin, the scene could be interpreted as Snape taking action in order to ensure the safety of Harry (in case it was the real one) rather than Lupin (if Lupin goes down, the Harry!George with him could go down as well or be captured). However, your interpretation is also valid and would serve to show that Snape included 'all people' in his statement, including half-breeds. The third interpretation is that Snape included the scene simply to show that he had no intention of taking off Harry!George's ear because that would have been another point of distrust in Snape on Harry's part (and there was no relevancy with respect to Snape trying to save anyone from death - but more to show that at that point, he was attempting to act as Dumbledore had told him to).

Too, it depends on the information that JKR wished to provide. We were to learn that Snape's signature spell was the Sectumsempra, which meant he had to use it at some point where a logical character would recognize it - and recognize Snape (after all, anyone could have taken off George's ear and Snape had no other role in that scene). Also it showed either the saving of Lupin or Harry!George, proof of Snape's loyalty. However, that called for a scene with Dumbledore telling Snape to participate if he had to, in order to keep his cover - legitimizing Snape's participation. Finally, it required that we see the last scene from Snape's perspective to know that he actually did not aim for either Lupin or Harry!George on purpose.

However, I am not sure everyone made the connection. :lol: I believe the link was placed for the analytical reader. Looking at the link for its purpose, one is left with the question: why did JKR wish us to know that Sectumsempra was Snape's *signature* spell? Why was it revealed in just that manner? My view is rather long, so I will save it for another time.


I don't recall a single witty or darkly humorous comment from Voldemort or Umbridge. Certainly nothing that would compare with Snape, who has some of the best lines in the entire series. Not to mention an exquisite sense of timing. For instance:

The humor is very dark, not unlike the example Zara gave and darker. However, we all see it distinctly; for example, there are some that do not find Snape's comments as funny at all - even in a read-for-pleasure sense. I've read zillions of magical fantasy series and done as many video games, so I see a common Dark Lord and Evil Villain type humor that JKR has woven through the tale. But it would be off topic to go further into it here. :)

That is a dark one. :lol:. While from an analytical standpoint, Snape's comments must be looked at distinctly; from a purely reading-for-pleasure standpoint, many of his comments were quite funny - as were some of Voldemort's and Umbridge's. Bascially, JKR has a knack for humor.

From an analytical standpoint - so does Snape the character. He has a flair for the dramatic and for humor, something that cannot be said about all of Rowling's characters, despite the fact that she herself clearly possesses these gifts as a writer. It is a legitimate aspect of his character to discuss.

The scene I missed discussing over the US Thanksgiving holiday is likely an illustration of this trait. In addition to various possible personal and Voldemort-war-related motives people have suggested for why Snape wanted Harry and Draco to duel - which would grab the attention of the entire assembled audience of students interested in the Duelling Club, a couple of seond year Gryffindors who are friends practising together, or Harry and Draco? Recall that in the previous chapter, there was a Slytherin/Gryffindor Quidditch match, which Gryffindor won, in which those boys were the rival Seekers. Harry grabbed the Snitch right out from under Draco's nose, and the whole school saw him do it. It's the Hogwarts School grudge match of the year!

The idea that a victim should respect a person who has bullied and abused him for years is a remarkable one to me.
We don't know that James abused him and bullied him for years. Snape made no mention of it to Lily when they argued, and he was trying to explain why he thought James was bad. All he mentioned was the Marauders sneaking out at night. And we know that Snape was the aggressor in his seventh year.

I don't think Snape ever regretted James' death- he is able to mock and insult James quite easily during the books, and right to the faces of Harry and Sirius , who loved and missed James. IMO, if he felt guilt or remorse about James' death, as he did about Lily's, he would taunt and belittle the man he had a direct hand in killing- in this, I see a cold pleasure on Snape's part, especilly when he gets to rub bad memories of James right in Sirius' face at Grimmauld Place, when he knew that Sirius and James were best friends. IMO, that was very cruel of him, and it was equally cruel of him to taunt an orphan's dead father to his face as well, IMO, and shows a complete lack respect to the memory of a man who died at the hands of Snape's former master, who he has supposedly renounced.
Absolutely. How do you justify taunting an orphan about his dead father? Same thing to the best friend of the deceased. That's very cruel in my opinion.

Moriath has asked us stay away from "Snape/James/Sirius Who Should Burn for All Eternity?"

Thanks guys :)

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"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
"For him? shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum"
-----------------

Clearly, he states there that he does not care for Harry. He is still only doing it because he is Lily's son, and he is trying to redeem himself for her death.

See, here I don't see why Snape, a man of cutting words and "cruei" behavior couldn't just say "Hell No. Dumbledore- I don't care about that brat."

What I find interesting about this scene is that Snape is a man who - by all accounts- is quick to cut down and criticize and insult Harry potter. So why doesn't he just say it here?

It would be easy. There's no logical reason for him to hold back. Dumbledore is dying and holds no power over Snape at this point. Snape is pressed to a point to prove himself and yet he refused to just say "I hate Harry Potter."

I think it's interesting. I don't read Snape as a man whom could ever admit caring about anyone and when he does show his love - he does so with actions not word. ie. "Expecto Patronum." But the fact is he did care if Harry lived or died. i don't know how to separate the issue of concern here. One can "loathe" someone and still care about them. For me, this means Snape did care for Harry.

Maybe I'm coming at this from a different perspective. As a child of divorce, I may "loathe" my father, but I do care about him. It's dysfunctional an unhealthy - or whatever- but it's true. It makes sense to me.

See, here I don't see why Snape, a man of cutting words and "cruei" behavior couldn't just say "Hell No. Dumbledore- I don't care about that brat."

What I find interesting about this scene is that Snape is a man who - by all accounts- is quick to cut down and criticize and insult Harry potter. So why doesn't he just say it here?

In answer to your question, imo, it is precisely what Snape said when he declared "for him?" These words were shouted as if Snape is very clearly indicating to Dumbledore that although it has been over a decade, his feelings have not changed - nor his motivation. Snape then whips out his wand and issues the doe in further confirmation (just in case Dumbledore was not clear on this).


It would be easy. There's no logical reason for him to hold back. Dumbledore is dying and holds no power over Snape at this point. Snape is pressed to a point to prove himself and yet he refused to just say "I hate Harry Potter."

Imo, it was unnecessary, the "for him?" said it all because it was in response to the question: if he cared for Harry. Snape's reaction, imo, indicates that Snape was incredulous that Dumbledore could even believe such a thing - his loathing of Harry has been obvious, in his opinion. It makes sense because Snape's outraged speech just prior to Dumbledore's question, speaks of Dumbledore's using him and his focus is on Lily (I was protecting Lily Potter's son - no mention of Harry here) Also, hate was not the issue, Dumbledore had asked if he cared.

I think it's interesting. I don't read Snape as a man whom could ever admit caring about anyone and when he does show his love - he does so with actions not word. ie. "Expecto Patronum." But the fact is he did care if Harry lived or died. i don't know how to separate the issue of concern here. One can "loathe" someone and still care about them. For me, this means Snape did care for Harry.

I don't personally read into Snape's declaration that he did not care about Harry to mean that he wished him to die. Snape expressed that he'd reached the normative social view that one should save those dying before their eyes if at all possible. Imo, it simply meant that Snape did not care about Harry in any emotional sense and the fact that Harry had to die for Dumbledore's cause, was not an issue for him.


Maybe I'm coming at this from a different perspective. As a child of divorce, I may "loathe" my father, but I do care about him. It's dysfunctional an unhealthy - or whatever- but it's true. It makes sense to me.

I can totally relate to where you are coming from and I think that is a very admirable way to feel. :)

However, Snape and Harry have no familial tie, nor is their relationship close (neither really knows the other at all except based on outward appearances and behavior - which is only a part of the true persona). If Harry were Snape's estranged son, or even a nephew - or if they knew one another well and had been close, but had merely had a falling out, I believe that Snape may have felt the way you do (whether he wished to admit it or not). But there was simply no relationship (biological or close 3rd party) that Snape would have to base such a feeling on or to feel it was the right thing to feel, imo.

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"Lately, only those whom i could not save" is Snape's quote. And it take's place around the time of HBP.

The lately would identify that he cares, or feels not for the deaths of previous, but only those of late.

The only conclusion one may draw is that Snape would save a life whenever it was within his power in that time, but at some time in the past did not. That doesn't imply anything about whether or not he regrets not having acted to save lives in the past or feels for the people who were killed. However, the fact that he cares about saving lives in the time of this quote implies that he would, at the time of this quote, regret not saving those who lost their lives in the past who he might have saved and didn't.
And he doesn't risk his life to save Remus at all.
Remus has a HARRY on his on his broom. Which we all know is George.
Snape has no knowledge of which Harry is which. Therefore he has to try and save all 7 Harry's.Why wouldn't George have his own broom? He's good on a broomstick. Harry is told that the main reason they didn't put him on a broomstick is that they thought Voldemort would go after the decoy that looked "at home on a broomstick." So, it's likely that George had his own broom, in which case Snape saving Lupin wouldn't have anything to do with saving Harry.
IMO, if he felt guilt or remorse about James' death, as he did about Lily's, he would not taunt and belittle the man he had a direct hand in killingIt doesn't seem reasonable to me that he would feel the same way about the death of a man who had made his life miserable (for a variety of reasons) as he did about the woman he loved more than his own life. I don't think that Snape needs to like James (in fact, I can understand why he didn't), but to show no concern or respect for his life (especially since James saved him from a terrible fate once) was cold.Actually, even if it wasn't true, Snape believed that James had set him up as much he believed it of Sirius. So, I don't see why he would feel any especially warm feelings toward James for that. We don't really know how Snape felt about James's death - he certainly never expressed that James deserved to die or that he was happy James had died. And, I don't see his criticism of Harry showing what he believed to be James's worst qualities as suggesting the Snape felt either of those things. Actually, Snape's harshest words about James come in PoA when he tells Harry how arrogant he is, just like his father - prior to that and after that book, he doesn't mention James very much. I don't think it's coincidence that this is the book in which Snape believes Harry is in danger from Sirius Black, who Snape also believes betrayed the Potters and ruined his chance to save Lily. This has got to be on Snape's mind the whole year, but he doesn't directly tell Harry until the very end when he says, "You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black." I think that's what it all came down to - and, in a way, Snape is blaming James for Lily's death, too. So, the way Snape would think, James's arrogance got himself and Lily killed because he didn't believe his friend would betray him and use Dumbledore as the Secret Keeper. Likewise, Snape is angry that Harry might get himself killed because of his arrogance in thinking he was above the rules, going to Hogsmeade, etc.
Looking at the link for its purpose, one is left with the question: why did JKR wish us to know that Sectumsempra was Snape's *signature* spell? Why was it revealed in just that manner? My view is rather long, so I will save it for another time.My view is that she wanted to continue to build the suspense for Snape's character by making him appear as evil as possible before the truth is revealed later. So, Snape had to do something that appeared harmful and Lupin had to recognize him doing it - this is a problem, since the Death Eaters wear masks. Therefore, she made Snape recognizable by his spell, which is something that in all the books we only see him and Harry having used. So, it's plausible that Lupin could recognize Snape by that spell - and, it would make sense that it had to be Lupin because he was the only one of them who'd seen Snape use it in the past during SWM.

My view is that she wanted to continue to build the suspense for Snape's character by making him appear as evil as possible before the truth is revealed later. So, Snape had to do something that appeared harmful and Lupin had to recognize him doing it - this is a problem, since the Death Eaters wear masks. Therefore, she made Snape recognizable by his spell, which is something that in all the books we only see him and Harry having used. So, it's plausible that Lupin could recognize Snape by that spell - and, it would make sense that it had to be Lupin because he was the only one of them who'd seen Snape use it in the past during SWM.

It's true that Jo was trying to make him appear as evil as she could, so that the final revelation was much more striking, but still, in SWM, he used Sectumsempra as a non-verbal spell. Remus recognized it and could name it. This tells me he'd heard Snape use it at some point before, or even after, he'd learned to do it non-verbally. From what we know in HBP, Snape was more on the down-low as a Death Eater, spying more so than attacking, and also Sirius didn't even know Snape was a Death Eater until GoF; from this, I conclude that Remus didn't know, either, which would mean he hadn't encountered Snape in fights while in the Order, or at least he didn't recognized him, and didn't hear/witness him using Sectumsempra.

So, for Remus's statement to make sense, he must have witnessed it at Hogwarts. IMO, it does make sense; if Avery and Mulciber could get away with using Dark Magic on a student without getting expelled, I'm sure Snape could have escaped severe punishments after using the curse. I got the impression the DE group at Hogwarts had a kind of "have to see it to believe it" outlook on their friends' views - in other words, Snape had to go around calling Muggleborns Mudbloods to seem a part of the DE crowd, despite his having a Muggleborn best friend (I'm unsure as to whether he really was prejudiced against Muggleborns, or whether he was just doing it for show to be accepted). I'd assume they'd feel the same way about Dark Magic - they'd really accept Snape into the circle if he used Dark Magic, too. Not to mention, Snape did love the Dark Arts and he created his own curses, so I doubt he made and used them just to impress Avery and Mulciber.

Anyways, that's the impression I got from Remus's line.

We don't really know how Snape felt about James's death - he certainly never expressed that James deserved to die or that he was happy James had died.

I would respectfully disagree:

Snape: "Like father, like son, Potter!...You would have been WELL SERVED if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black..."


And, I don't see his criticism of Harry showing what he believed to be James's worst qualities as suggesting the Snape felt either of those things. Actually, Snape's harshest words about James come in PoA when he tells Harry how arrogant he is, just like his father - prior to that and after that book, he doesn't mention James very much.


I would respectfully disagree, more (a few examples) and harsher (as underlined) imo:

"Coward, did you call me Potter?" shouted Snape. "Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" ..... "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, *** Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

"But surely you have noticed that Potter is very life his father?"...."well then you'll know he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him,' Snape said sleekly."

"So...been enjoying yourself, Potter?" It was scary: Snape's lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared. "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?' said Snape, shaking Harry so hard his glasses slipped down his nose. 'I didn't' (began Harry). Snape threw Harry from him with all his might. Harry fell hard on to the dungeon floor.

Prior to POA (in the scene you refer to), we have quite a few more quotes which I won't write out because they can all be found together in the DH - The Prince's Tale Chapter (train, first chat with Lily after sorting, return chat with Dumbledore in office after Lily's death, first chat with Dumbledore immediately following (mediocre, arrogant as his father...etc.), #12 G place scene (implied) plus the scene where Harry impertinently told Snape to "shut up" in POA itself; where he explained his view of the werewolf incident (POA Maruader's Map)...to name a few (haven't time to get them all on here now). (All emphasis added)

Snape spoke about James so much, in fact, that was what incited my interest in the little project I was speaking about in my post. :)


My view is that she wanted to continue to build the suspense for Snape's character by making him appear as evil as possible before the truth is revealed later. So, Snape had to do something that appeared harmful and Lupin had to recognize him doing it - this is a problem, since the Death Eaters wear masks. Therefore, she made Snape recognizable by his spell, which is something that in all the books we only see him and Harry having used. So, it's plausible that Lupin could recognize Snape by that spell - and, it would make sense that it had to be Lupin because he was the only one of them who'd seen Snape use it in the past during SWM.

I agree that was a part of it no matter which other reason she had for including Snape in the raid scene. However, Snape's hood fell off - Lupin saw him, so that was sufficient to show he was present and participating - and that he had cut off George's ear. My question was, why did JKR specifically wish for us to learn that Sectumsempra was Snape's *Signature* spell? JKR had Lupin add that extraneous information for a reason - we already knew in HBP that Snape had invented the spell and we already saw him use it for ourselves in SWM. Anyway - again, my view is long long long :lol: So I have to write it out later (but along the lines of what LilyDreamsOn said - plus in conjunction with a larger group of scenes.)

Why wouldn't George have his own broom? He's good on a broomstick. Harry is told that the main reason they didn't put him on a broomstick is that they thought Voldemort would go after the decoy that looked "at home on a broomstick." So, it's likely that George had his own broom, in which case Snape saving Lupin wouldn't have anything to do with saving Harry.


It's all in DH.

Harry's still an underage wizard in the Seven Potters chapter. Therefore the DE would know it wasn't Harry if he was on his own. As he needed protection from an able wizard.

That was the plan. Seven decoys. All non-distinguishable from each other as possible. Only those 14 people in Harry's kitchen and garden knew who was who, and the full plan. Therefore Snape could take no chances in not saving a Harry.

chievrefueil is not saying George was flying off somewhere by himself as Harry. She suggested they were flying in tandem on two brooms.

chievrefueil is not saying George was flying off somewhere by himself as Harry. She suggested they were flying in tandem on two brooms.

They were riding with two on a broom, thestral and moto. This was actually a pretty funny part:

------
Mounting the broom: "Hold tight now, Ron," said Tonks, and Harry saw Ron throw a furtive, guilty look at Lupin before placing his hands on either side of her waist. (DH - Seven Potters)
------

Ron is so funny! As if! :lol: But that scene indicated how they were traveling from Privet Drive - 2 on each conveyance. Also, later when Lupin told Harry about George's ear being struck off, Lupin said he'd wanted to give Snape as good as he got, but he couldn't retaliate because it took everything he had just to keep George on the broom - so they were traveling the same way (wouldn't make sense to have one of the Harry's on a side broom anyway because that would be a dead giveaway it was not Harry).

When Snape was dying and told Harry to look at him, that was the first time he'd seen Harry in DH. I was thinking it would be right in line with Jo's humor if she later told us that Snape asked Harry to look at him because he wanted to make sure he had both ears!

Hi Aisha. :)

I believe High Lion was referring to the bit before Snape conceded that Dumbledore could keep - her - them safe.

If we analyse this scene with Snape:

Dumbledore says: "if she means so much to you...surely Lord Voldemort will spare her?"

Now, imo, Dumbledore could have stopped speaking there if the point he was making was: 'why come to me? why don't you ask your own master for help?' But I do not think that was his point because he goes on to say:

"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"

Now why would Dumbledore say that to Snape? Imo, Dumbledore was confirming Snape's character and motive. That is, the exact nature of Snape's emotions for Lily. Were they selfishly oriented? Was Snape thinking in terms of his own happiness or Lily's? That is what I believe Dumbledore was testing and Snape fell right into his trap:

"I have - I have asked him - "

I believe Dumbledore knew he was going to answer that way and Dumbledore's immediate response is:

"You digsust me," said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice.

Remember we are in DH, Harry has heard the contempt in Dumbledore's voice when he was in battle with Voldemort at the DOM - so we are talking a lot of contempt here. I believe it is because Dumbledore's suspicions about the nature of Snape's emotions for Lily were confirmed. Snape was not thinking of Lily's happiness, but his own; he wanted Lily to be safe and that would make Snape happy - it certainly would not make Lily happy (her family would be dead). But Dumbledore does not stop there, he says:

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Imo, Dumbledore was giving Snape a clear opportunity to jump in and immediately say: 'NO! I want them all saved of course, I am just deeply concerned over Lily because she was my dear friend'. Dumbledore would have to concede that he'd been mistaken in such a case. But Snape confirmed Dumbledore's thoughts because instead of insisting that he wished the entire family saved:

"Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore."

What is behind Snape's silence? Why was this silence written into the scene? What could he have possibly been contemplating? Imo, Snape realized that Dumbledore had trapped him and had seen through his plea to his underlying desire: Lily. He knew what Dumbledore wanted him to say, but in his heart, he did not want to say it. I believe that Snape was thinking along those lines because of his response:

"Hide them all, then," he croaked

The "then" is conciliatory - as if he has grudgingly allowed Dumbledore to bully him into agreement. And he croaks out the statement, as if his true desire, which is ravishing his soul, is causing him emotional turmoil when making the statement. Why? Imo, because Snape does not wish to make this concession; his original plea to Voldemort would result in Lily being brought to him once the Dark Lord had spared her. However, Dumbledore's plan absolutely banishes that possibility. Why do I feel Snape's mind is still toiling with all of this? Because of his final statement:

"keep her - them - safe. Please."

Despite conceding to keeping the entire family safe, Snape still slips and says "her" instead of "them". Because "her" is what is really on his mind.

So that is my interpretation of that scene and that is why I agree with High Lion's interpretation. I respect your interpretation as well, although I believe it differs from mine. :)



Hi to you too wickedwickedboy,

Did I mention I hate debates? I just didn't have it in my self to write long deep points trying to prove my point, thats why I don't consider myself a good debator. But now that you have replied I really wanted to express my point too.

I've read your long post, the reason behind your interpretation of the post and everything but please let me get to the bottom point of your post.

The bottom line of your post meant, if I say bluntly, that Snape truly didn't love Lily, his love was selfish, that he desired her and was hoping that Lily be brought to him after her family was killed so that he can have her?? I am right?

You are entitled to have your own opinion, if you are interpreting his desperate requests to keep her safe with Dumbledore in this way, but imho nothing in this conversation suggests that he wanted her family to get killed so that she can be given to him by the dark lord.

It only suggests that he desperately wanted her to be save because he loves her, yes her family didn't matter to him he was a Deatheater then, but he was concerned for her for her sake.

He agreed to keep "them" safe shows that its not that he desires her or wants her with him but its her safety that matters to him as it does not bother him if it takes to keep her family safe. Yes "her" was truly on his mind but "them" did not made him rethink his decision to keep her safe.

It didn't matter to him if James or Harry died at that time yes. But if he had only desired her and wanted her to be brought to him than he would not have agreed to spy to keep "them" safe. Why should he bother really? The women will be safe with her husband and child? She won't give a damn about him if her husband is alive? Whats the point in protecting her if it takes to protect the thorn in his way too?

Why did he bother protecting her than?

Because it was not her he desired, her "safety" was what he desired for her sake too.


Now you think its just because her living will keep him happy? This reason did not fit right with me considering that she will be spending time with his enemy and is likely never to meet him in her life, don't you think?

I will explain my view about this happiness in this way:

A person protect his or her "loved ones" because of their sake and happiness and also for " his own sake " and "his own happiness".

I love my family and want them protected because there safety is my happiness. Does that make me selfish? Harry wanted Ron, Hermione and Ginny alive, does it make him selfish? I don't think so. Like wise Lily's safety was Snape's happiness, and if he cares about "his happiness" in this manner than it does not make him a bad person nor it can be said to be selfish imo because this is what we all do, this is human nature.

Now I think it will be argued that he didn't care about her happiness only her life. My views on the matter:


Lets see, in dire situations like in the middle of an accident or a war, when we care about and wants to protect someone our first priority is always about to keep that person alive, its again the human nature, " LIFE " comes first, keeping safe each and every individual that "your loved one" care about is not the thing that comes 1st on our priority level then, especially if we have no emotional connections to those people.

"Human life" is something that matters most to us then if its in danger, so that the person be able to live and get on with his or her life.

Its not like we don't want to keep them happy but in these situations we try to keep as much as can be saved and naturally his or her life comes 1st.


Offcourse we care about the people whose life matters the most to "our loved one" but our first priority will be to keep him/her alive and "then" if we can we "will" consider keeping his/her family safe too (only because they matter to him/her). We can risk our life for "our loved ones" but might not be so willing for other people.


Likewise In Snape's case "keep her safe" came first "keep them safe" if possible was also agreed upon.

And about not caring about her family and only keeping her alive can be looked like this POV too:

Will anyone think like his own like this:

" We can't keep her family safe, but we can keep her safe, but really what is the use of keeping her safe when her family is dead. She is better dead then alive without her family, lets just forget about her"

Is this what one will think about his loved ones.

People say Snape should have kept her family safe. Well he tried to but her safety was forefront on his mind. Snape knew that at least Harry will have to die, he was the "Chosen one", but should he have looked at the matter in this way as I have described above. That if her son has to die, there is no reason to keep her safe? No.. so he tried to keep her alive despite of chance of her son's death. It doesn't means he "desired her" for " his own happiness", it simply means he wanted her to be safe as everyone will want his or her loved ones be saved.



Why don't you people see it in a general way:

What do you expect a person to do, If his x-girlfriend whom he still loves marry his worst enemy and then then her whole family's life is jeopardized because of his self. His 1st instinct will be to safe her life, because he still care about her safety, you can't expect him to suddenly jump on protecting her husband as well whom he hate dearly. It will not be because he want the girl to be alive for his happiness, it will be for her own self too "her own life". And if he "had" to protect her husband as well to protect her and he does it, it means that he do truly loves her.

But "she", " her life" will come first because in dire situations "Life " is what comes forefront in mind about anyones safety and not his emotions or mental health.

What exactly did you expect Snape to do? He hated James but he wanted Lily to be safe. the 1st thing that came to his mind was protecting her "life" likewise and he asked of it to Voldemort and then to Dumbledore.

Why does anyone expect him to say that he cares about her family's life too, to prove that he loves her, when he does not. But when it came to safe her family with her he did it as best as he could . He does not need to love her family too, to love her but when time came he protected them and this is what actually matters.

And do I really need to tell that later on he devoted his life to protect her son, changed his sides permnently because of her and ultimately laid down his life in this side. How can it mean Selfish love and Desire?


If I intercepted the bottom line of your post correctly and you really meant that he truly didn't loved her and only desired her than you are also disagreeing with the writer who created the character and agreeing with Voldemort more like it. :)

If JRK say's he was "vindictive" than it means he was, if she says that "he loved Lily", it means he did. I don't agree with some views of JRK as she has her own likes and dislikes that can contradict with any reader. Her likes and dislikes are due to her own taste and personal experiences but if she says that a particular character of her has "this quality" or he "loves her" or "hate her" than imho we should agree with her only if we do not see clear evidence contradicting her words with her own writing, because she knew what her character is.

I am not talking here about if he Redeemed himself or not because Redemption its a very complicated matter and I don't have enough energy to prove my point about it here but about love I can say that a person does not:

1. Risk his life trying to protect a women and her family (one of which he hates, who had tormented and bullied him and who has taken the women from her) if he doesn't love her.

2. Don't spend his life protecting her son whom he hates dearly.

3. Does not change the course of his whole life for her before and even after her death.

You can't make a person like or dislike anyone, Snape did not like James nor he liked Harry, but what matters is the act he do despite his personal opinion and Snape put his personal opinion on side to protect her family too and this is what matters.


.................................................. .................................................. ...



Phew.. this is the longest post I've ever made. I hate debates, yet I am participating in one even when I know I am never good enough to prove my point reliably. Well, I've explained my POV's on "Snape truly loves Lily" matter and I don't think I'll be able to take very much part in this debate now (it takes an awful lot of time to explain my point considering that I'm not that good in English and then Type it). And I also think I have repeated many points in my above reply and I really hope my rambling above is making any sense to anyone because debate has never been my strongest points.:no:

In the end everyone is entitled to have his or her own opinion and I really do respect everyones opinion but I wanted to express my ideas on this matter and I have. Thanks.

Good Day To Everyone,

Aisha.

Aisha,

I understand where you're coming from, and agree in parts.

I think his first instinct is to make Lily safe. Which as a very committed Wife and Mother would mean keeping her family safe.
However Dumbledore, then asks whether or not Snape could ask the Dark Lord to spare her life in return for James and Harry's. Snape says he has asked for this.

It is this willingness to take away her husband and son who she dearly loves, so she can live that, for me personaly, defines who he is.

Could she ever feel contempt with living, or find happiness again after having her husband and son murdered but her spared? I highly doubt so.

If I intercepted the bottom line of your post correctly and you really meant that he truly didn't loved her and only desired her than you are also disagreeing with the writer who created the character and agreeing with Voldemort more like it. :)
For someone who doesn't like debates, this probably the best Snape character analysis I've ever read. :lol:

I agree completely that there is sufficient evidence that Sev truely loved Lily. Considering his relationship with James, I don't think it's fair to hold it against him completely that he whe didn't care enough about James, the man who Lily fell in love with in the end, let alone have that man's baby.

Yes, I do think he should have been the bigger person and just let all that go. But I will also say based on my personal experience, that when it comes to unrequited love(of any kind for that matter), it's very easy to turn bitter. It's very easy to become angry because obviously there's a lot of hurt that comes from it. Now whether or not that person brought it on themself is besides the point. It's still pain of losing someone. It still hurts. And I believe that's also something about every human being is guilty of to some extent, if this is something that should be held against someone like Sev.

But does falling into that bitterness make Sev's love any less true or worthy? Does it make his love automatically selfish and/or false just because he feels bitter towards the family Lily gained with the man he's always resented, when that bitterness would not have been there if his love for Lily wasn't present in the first place?

Also, there's a reason why Sev goes to Dumbledore even when he already asked Voldy to spare her. I believe he knew full well what Voldy is capable of, and that there was a chance he would kill all of them regardless. Otherwise there's no reason for why he would turn to Dumbledore in the first place. And knowing Dumbledore, he'd make sure to keep the entire family safe. And even if it's proven Sev wanted James dead, if keeping the the man he hated alive and safe meant it would keep Lily safe, I think that proves just how much he cared for Lily.

And I would also agree that to think Sev really didn't love Lily would be disagreeing with the creator of the character. :)

Aisha,

I understand where you're coming from, and agree in parts.

I think his first instinct is to make Lily safe. Which as a very committed Wife and Mother would mean keeping her family safe.
However Dumbledore, then asks whether or not Snape could ask the Dark Lord to spare her life in return for James and Harry's. Snape says he has asked for this.

It is this willingness to take away her husband and son who she dearly loves, so she can live that, for me personaly, defines who he is.

Could she ever feel contempt with living, or find happiness again after having her husband and son murdered but her spared? I highly doubt so.




Well, thanks for agreeing somewhat.

Could she ever feel contempt with living, or find happiness again after having her husband and son murdered but her spared?


No she might not, but is this good enough reason for Snape to stop trying to protect her life as well? He can't just let her die if her family could not be saved, could he? Did Dumbledore stopped trying to protect Harry just because he no longer had parents? A person don't think in this way.



RavenStar83 thanks for your agreement as well. :)

Hi to you too wickedwickedboy,

Offcourse we care about the people whose life matters the most to "our loved one" but our first priority will be to keep him/her alive and "then" if we can we "will" consider keeping his/her family safe too (only because they matter to him/her). We can risk our life for "our loved ones" but might not be so willing for other people.

First, I really do respect your viewpoint. I think that each reader will look at everything distinctly and every view that is based on canon is valid and meritous.

I think that you raise an issue in this paragraph that separates our viewpoints and thus, from this point forward, our interpretations of Snape's character diverge.

I personally, see absolutely no merit whatsoever in a man holding on to an unrequited love for another man's wife. Especially when the man had no romantically loving relationship with the woman himself. Imo, it is immoral, unhealthy and totally disrespectful to the fundamental integrity of the woman's marriage. Understand that I feel that way independent of whether or not the man likes or dislikes the husband and children in the marriage.

Thus, Snape's emotions for Lily serving as a motivation for him to do brave things, risk his life, protect her son, attempt to 'keep her safe - for whatever reason' is completely abominable in my eyes.

I do not believe that Snape had no option; that is, I do not believe that his emotions for Lily were thrust upon him. I believe that he allowed a crush he developed on her to flourish (at whatever age) and later, instead of controling those emotions when it became clear that they would never have a romantic relationship (which many, including myself have done), he elected to continue fostering a vision of Lily in a romantic sense in his imagination. Snape was certain he was in love throughout his life - even though he'd never been in a romantic relationship from birth to death that we are aware of.

I cannot find justification for Snape in the idea that if he had not had such emotions for Lily, Harry would have died. That does not make his behavior correct. For example, if Voldemort had decided to remain on a straight and narrow path and grown up to be an upstanding wizard, there would be no story. But the fact that Voldemort did not do that and allowed for the story, does not justify his behavior in an analytical sense.

And about not caring about her family and only keeping her alive can be looked like this POV too:

Will anyone think like his own like this:

" We can't keep her family safe, but we can keep her safe, but really what is the use of keeping her safe when her family is dead. She is better dead then alive without her family, lets just forget about her"

Is this what one will think about his loved ones.

I would respectfully disagree that Lily was Snape's loved one. I believe that Snape saw Lily as a 'loved one', but Lily did not see Snape in that light in the least, imo. I feel that a 'loved one' is someone you love and who loves you in return. Lily's loved one's were Harry, James and all others she loved (romantically or platonically). Lily did not love Snape even as a friend after she ended their relationship in a normative sense. That is, they had no relationship whatsoever to base anything of that kind upon. Thus Snape was all alone in his emotions and imo, those emotions were kept in Snape's heart because they made him happy - they were not making anyone else happy.

What do you expect a person to do, If his x-girlfriend whom he still loves marry his worst enemy and then then her whole family's life is jeopardized because of his self. His 1st instinct will be to safe her life, because he still care about her safety, you can't expect him to suddenly jump on protecting her husband as well whom he hate dearly.


Lily was never Snape's girlfriend, thus she was never his ex-girlfriend. She was simply a friend and she ended the relationship on a very bad note. That means that even the ties of friendship were cut. Essentially, Snape had an obsessive character, imo, and he retained feelings for Lily despite the wrongness of doing so.

Don't misunderstand me to imply that Snape should have hated Lily. It would be fine if he retained feelings of goodwill toward her as a friend, however, Snape moved beyond that and his feelings developed into what he fancied as romantic love. That is what makes Snape's request to Voldemort suspect. Voldemort was going to kill James and Harry then give Lily to Snape. What was Snape planning to do with her?


It will not be because he want the girl to be alive for his happiness, it will be for her own self too "her own life".

This is what I was referring to above. What would Snape see as Lily's "own life"? Imo, Snape's character and outlook had been grossly damaged by his tenure with the Death Eaters. Imo, it left him blind to certain social norms. Snape admitted that he had reached the point where he would watch people die that he could save - and do nothing about it. Thus, I do not see it at all incongruent with Snape's character for him to have wanted Lily for himself and also to feel that it was just fine to have her - and finally feel that she would be so greatful that he had spared her from death, she would look upon him kindly and with love - eventually.

Note that I am not saying that Snape "desired" Lily in the way that Voldemort believed. Snape truly fancied himself in love. However, his lowered social values and lack of romantic experience resulted in a skewed vision of the realities pertaining to love, imo.

Why does anyone expect him to say that he cares about her family's life too, to prove that he loves her

I cannot answer for everyone, however, imo, if you truly love someone, you put their happiness above your own selfish desires in relation to them. Lily simply would not be happy without her family and Snape should have recognized that. Snape also should have given up any hope of any type of relationship between himself and Lily long before he went to Dumbledore on the hill.

If Snape had gone to the hill, simply because he treasured his old friendship and didn't wish to see Lily and her family harmed, I would find that very admirable. But that is not the case here, imo.

If JRK say's he was "vindictive" than it means he was, if she says that "he loved Lily", it means he did.

I agree. I feel Snape was vindictive and he did love Lily. However, his love for Lily was obsessive, selfish and fostered by his imagination, imo.

Phew.. this is the longest post I've ever made. I hate debates, yet I am participating in one even when I know I am never good enough to prove my point reliably.

I think you made your point very well. While I do not agree with you, I certainly can respect your viewpoint. :)


**I should add, that while we are discussing Snape's character, because Lily is so heavily involved in the conversation, it would probably be better discussed in the "Snape and Lily Character" thread. We can continue over there if you would like. :)

I personally, see absolutely no merit whatsoever in a man holding on to an unrequited love for another man's wife. Especially when the man had no romantically loving relationship with the woman himself. Imo, it is immoral, unhealthy and totally disrespectful to the fundamental integrity of the woman's marriage. Understand that I feel that way independent of whether or not the man likes or dislikes the husband and children in the marriage.
:)

I think this is a great point to touch on. Even as Lily was married, Snapes undying love never waivered. It is immoral to be in love with another mans wife. It is completely disrespectful, and I understand that James and Snape never got along, but that is one thing I dont think any man would have welcomed. Snape cannot wonder why James did not like him. I think James may have been a big enough person to let go of the bad relationship they had at Hogwarts, but it can be impossible to forgive a man who would willingly take your wife from you.
Snape was an unbelievable selfish person. It was grossly disgusting that he didnt want to save anybody but Lily, and I dont think that changed. He remained an extremely bitter person untill the day he died.

I think this is a great point to touch on. Even as Lily was married, Snapes undying love never waivered. It is immoral to be in love with another mans wife. It is completely disrespectful, and I understand that James and Snape never got along, but that is one thing I dont think any man would have welcomed.

What James would or would not have wanted is beside the point. (Nor, in my opinion, does he have any standing to demand Snape's respect; that is a two-way street). This makes no sense at all to me. First, my reading of "The Prince's Tale" suggests Sev was head-over-heels by his fifth year in school, several years before Lily married. So at the time it happened, it was not immoral, but completely natural and a good thing. Second, once a person is in love - it is not something that can be turned on and off like a light switch when circumstances change.

Was Harry wrong in HBP (in a lesser way) to yearn for Ginny while she dated Harry's friend Dean? In my opinion, not at all. If he had actively attempted to seduce Ginny away, or abuse his power as Quidditch Captain to keep them apart, that would have been disloyal. He didn't. Harry merely being in love, is not something he can help anymore than Sev could. Similarly, after Lily broke up with Sev, it seems he left her alone. His actions (in this narrow area, I am not addressing his Death Eater membership here) were moral. His feelings were what they were.

What James would or would not have wanted is beside the point. (Nor, in my opinion, does he have any standing to demand Snape's respect; that is a two-way street).

I respect your opinion, and I cannot speak to Coeur's response to my words, however, what I was referring to in this instance was not respect for James or Lily, but rather respect for the integrity and santitude of the matrimonial state. Snape, imo, appeared to have no respect for the sanctity of marriage when he spoke with Voldemort and later, when he initially arrived upon the hill and spoke with Dumbledore.

In that, I agree with you. What Lily or James may have wanted (or anyone in the world) is besides the point. What was important, imo, is Snape's character at that juncture and how it was reflected in his viewpoint, behavior and expressed ideals and desires. Imo, Snape's association with Voldemort and the Death Eaters was very important in this regard at that point. His views were profoundly shaped during that time and his moral outlook suffered greatly, imo.

Hang on, I think it's already stated in canon that Sev loved Lily WAAYY before she got married to James or even started dating him. Harry even said he loved her since they were children in his duel with Voldy in DH. Was he supposed to just stop loving her right when she got married? Maybe it's just my understanding of love and human emotion, but that is way too easily said than done. You're feelings for someone aren't just something you can just stop at a certain point.

And if his love is so "immoral", what does that say about JKR and how she created this character?

Let's take a deep breath guys. Remember to make it clear when things are your opinion. :)

What James would or would not have wanted is beside the point. (Nor, in my opinion, does he have any standing to demand Snape's respect; that is a two-way street). This makes no sense at all to me. First, my reading of "The Prince's Tale" suggests Sev was head-over-heels by his fifth year in school, several years before Lily married. So at the time it happened, it was not immoral, but completely natural and a good thing. Second, once a person is in love - it is not something that can be turned on and off like a light switch when circumstances change.

Was Harry wrong in HBP (in a lesser way) to yearn for Ginny while she dated Harry's friend Dean? In my opinion, not at all. If he had actively attempted to seduce Ginny away, or abuse his power as Quidditch Captain to keep them apart, that would have been disloyal. He didn't. Harry merely being in love, is not something he can help anymore than Sev could. Similarly, after Lily broke up with Sev, it seems he left her alone. His actions (in this narrow area, I am not addressing his Death Eater membership here) were moral. His feelings were what they were.

I understand that Snape loved Lily waaaaaaaay before she was married, my point is that she became married at some point, and he still would not recognize this. When Snape met Dumbledore to ask for protection he did not realize that Lily and James are now one, which is what married couples are to be considered. He would not respect this fact alone. I dont mean that Snape should have stopped loving Lily because she was married, because this is not something you can turn off. What happened in school was before they were married, and that I am not referring to. All I meant is that Snape would not recognize their marriage or what it entails, but yet he himself knew what it is to love someone for all your life.

But as for Jo, she was creating a character. Thats what fiction is all about. She created murder, and hatred, but its fiction. She was telling a story, i didnt mean to discredit Jo or even bring her into this.

Hi to you too wickedwickedboy,


If JRK say's he was "vindictive" than it means he was, if she says that "he loved Lily", it means he did. I don't agree with some views of JRK as she has her own likes and dislikes that can contradict with any reader. Her likes and dislikes are due to her own taste and personal experiences but if she says that a particular character of her has "this quality" or he "loves her" or "hate her" than imho we should agree with her only if we do not see clear evidence contradicting her words with her own writing, because she knew what her character is.




I just thought to clear my views on a point.

I think we or I can take JKR as an authority about facts and details about the facts of the character like characters main qualities, likes , dislikes etc if they don't contradict with her own writing.

But I at least don't take her as an authority about her "views" on characters. Her views will be for me at least be her "personal ideas" not "law" like on matters like who is better, who has redeemed or not redeemed themselves, who is good or bad because everyone has different opinions based on there own taste and POv's, which they place upon the facts they know about the characters. For facts yes she's the authority for me at least but for opinions or views about characters she is not. Just though to clear this before any further debate occurs. Which means to say that I take as fact that "he loved her " "showed loyalty to that love and ultimately laid down its life because of it" and take "that is is not a hero " as a view point.

What James would or would not have wanted is beside the point. (Nor, in my opinion, does he have any standing to demand Snape's respect; that is a two-way street). This makes no sense at all to me. First, my reading of "The Prince's Tale" suggests Sev was head-over-heels by his fifth year in school, several years before Lily married. So at the time it happened, it was not immoral, but completely natural and a good thing. Second, once a person is in love - it is not something that can be turned on and off like a light switch when circumstances change.

Was Harry wrong in HBP (in a lesser way) to yearn for Ginny while she dated Harry's friend Dean? In my opinion, not at all. If he had actively attempted to seduce Ginny away, or abuse his power as Quidditch Captain to keep them apart, that would have been disloyal. He didn't. Harry merely being in love, is not something he can help anymore than Sev could. Similarly, after Lily broke up with Sev, it seems he left her alone. His actions (in this narrow area, I am not addressing his Death Eater membership here) were moral. His feelings were what they were.

Oddly, I agree :) Snape couldn't help his feelings for Lily; those were beyond his control- you can't help who you love, you know? It seems that Snape respected Lily's choice to some extent- as far as we know, he did not try to attack, kidnap, or seduce Lily with a love potion he was certainly capable of making/doing. He couldn't help that he loved her.

IMO, of course;)

-LilyPod

Don't be afraid of debates, Aisha! You're doing beautifully! :tu:

First, my reading of "The Prince's Tale" suggests Sev was head-over-heels by his fifth year in school, several years before Lily married. So at the time it happened, it was not immoral, but completely natural and a good thing. Second, once a person is in love - it is not something that can be turned on and off like a light switch when circumstances change.

Was Harry wrong in HBP (in a lesser way) to yearn for Ginny while she dated Harry's friend Dean? In my opinion, not at all. If he had actively attempted to seduce Ginny away, or abuse his power as Quidditch Captain to keep them apart, that would have been disloyal. He didn't. Harry merely being in love, is not something he can help anymore than Sev could. Similarly, after Lily broke up with Sev, it seems he left her alone. His actions (in this narrow area, I am not addressing his Death Eater membership here) were moral. His feelings were what they were.

:clap: I absolutely agree. I don't think you can hold it against someone to be in love with someone else. I really don't see how you can. Emotions are what they are - involuntary, not to be tempered with by reason, or will. You can choose not to act upon them. But you cannot suppress their existence as such. Severus didn't try to get off with James' wife - I really don't see a single point in the books even indicating such a thing. And him saying 'Lily Evans' when she is already married - well, he had a friend for six or seven years who was called that way, and even when their friendship ended, she was called like that for another two years. Then she got married - but she was also no longer a part of Severus' daily life, she was just gone. He never interacted with Lily Potter, but he had tons of memories of a girl by the name of Evans. If that's supposed to be immoral - well, I think that's a harsh judgement on a very ordinary phenomenon. I don't call my friends from school back then by their new married names either.

Don't be afraid of debates, Aisha! You're doing beautifully! :tu:



:clap: I absolutely agree. I don't think you can hold it against someone to be in love with someone else. I really don't see how you can. Emotions are what they are - involuntary, not to be tempered with by reason, or will. You can choose not to act upon them. But you cannot suppress their existence as such. Severus didn't try to get off with James' wife - I really don't see a single point in the books even indicating such a thing. And him saying 'Lily Evans' when she is already married - well, he had a friend for six or seven years who was called that way, and even when their friendship ended, she was called like that for another two years. Then she got married - but she was also no longer a part of Severus' daily life, she was just gone. He never interacted with Lily Potter, but he had tons of memories of a girl by the name of Evans. If that's supposed to be immoral - well, I think that's a harsh judgement on a very ordinary phenomenon. I don't call my friends from school back then by their new married names either.

I dont think he could have turned his feelings for Lily either. Im not saying he should have.
What I am saying is that he should of recognized that Lily was married and had love in her life, which he could have appreciated. Snape did not care if james and Harry died, which is selfish, and would have caused Lily great pain. Calling Lily by her maiden name is another sign that he does not recognize her marriage, but yes, it could be just habit as well.
I think when he went to Dumbledore on the hilltop that was a red flag that he did not care about her marriage. Save Lily Potter but let the rest die. He did not care for her in a healthy way, he still wanted her for his own, even if he thought it unlikely. There is nothing good or just about trying to save Lily but not caring if her son or husband die.

I respect your opinion, and I cannot speak to Coeur's response to my words, however, what I was referring to in this instance was not respect for James or Lily, but rather respect for the integrity and santitude of the matrimonial state. Snape, imo, appeared to have no respect for the sanctity of marriage when he spoke with Voldemort and later, when he initially arrived upon the hill and spoke with Dumbledore.
I think it is an absolute fallacy to read anything about Snape's attitude towards the sanctity of marriage into his response to Dumbledore on the hilltop. He was desperate to save the life of the woman he loved.
To give an example:
Recently my sister and her husband took my two eldest sons for a day out in London. IF there had been a terrorist attack in London that day my first thought would have been for my children - Does that mean I do not love my sister and her husband? Of course not. I just love my children more. Would it mean I had no consideration for anyone else who may have been hurt or killed? Again of course not. If an attack HAD happened and I found out my kids were fine my reaction would have been huge relief - Does that mean I don't care that other people may have been killed or injured - again an emphatic NO.
When people you love are in danger your mind is completely taken up by thoughts for them and them alone.
To me Snape showed huge respect for the sanctity of marriage because once Lily married he let her go. Even though he loved her, he let her get on with her life.
Emotions are what they are - involuntary, not to be tempered with by reason, or will. You can choose not to act upon them. But you cannot suppress their existence as such. Severus didn't try to get off with James' wife - I really don't see a single point in the books even indicating such a thing. And him saying 'Lily Evans' when she is already married - well, he had a friend for six or seven years who was called that way, and even when their friendship ended, she was called like that for another two years. Then she got married - but she was also no longer a part of Severus' daily life, she was just gone. He never interacted with Lily Potter, but he had tons of memories of a girl by the name of Evans. If that's supposed to be immoral - well, I think that's a harsh judgement on a very ordinary phenomenon. I don't call my friends from school back then by their new married names either.
Very well said Fleur! :tu:
I would just like to add that IMO love is never immoral. It is immoral to act on those feelings by stalking someone, trying to break up their marriage or as is possible in the HP universe, use a potion or spell to force someone against their will, but Severus never did any of those things.
HEck he didn't even want anyone to know he loved Lily - something that Dumbledore describes as "the best of him."

:lol: I guess Ill just agree to disagree with everyone.
I think if my sister and her husband were missing in any situation, I would be terrified for each of them.
I dont beleive Snape cared for Lilys family at all. Just like he didnt care for Petunia, he didnt care if her husband and son were killed. I think that is why Dumbledore says
"you disgust me" said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. "you do not care about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"
Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
"hide them all, then" he croaked. "keep her-them-safe. Please"

He doesnt care about her marriage at all. He doesnt respect it. As long as his love is safe, nothing else matters. Not even her love.

I think it is an absolute fallacy to read anything about Snape's attitude towards the sanctity of marriage into his response to Dumbledore on the hilltop. He was desperate to save the life of the woman he loved.
To give an example:
Recently my sister and her husband took my two eldest sons for a day out in London. IF there had been a terrorist attack in London that day my first thought would have been for my children - Does that mean I do not love my sister and her husband? Of course not. I just love my children more. Would it mean I had no consideration for anyone else who may have been hurt or killed? Again of course not. If an attack HAD happened and I found out my kids were fine my reaction would have been huge relief - Does that mean I don't care that other people may have been killed or injured - again an emphatic NO.
When people you love are in danger your mind is completely taken up by thoughts for them and them alone.

I agree that one's first thought is naturally the person you love - my sister was once in the area of a school shooting, and although I knew that some people had been shot, and I knew they weren't my sister, I was still panicking and calling her phone every five seconds to see if she was alright.

The difference is, however, that Snape would not have cared if James or Harry died. Dumbledore said "They can die, as long as you have what you want?" - the average person would say "No" straight away, there wouldn't be any doubt about it, because if given a chance to save innocent lives, people will (most of the time) take it. Snape, however, stayed silent, merely looking at Dumbledore. Sometimes silence speaks louder than words, and here, IMO, it definitely does. No matter how much he cared for Lily, his lack of care over the lives of her husband and child were quite evident in that scene, to me.

And that's why Dumbledore said "you disgust me", and I agreed with him. If his actions were so selfless and he was just neglecting James and Harry because of his panic for Lily, it would not have made sense for Dumbledore to speak with so much contempt. He recognized the fact that Snape did not in any way care about Lily's family, and it disgusted him.

I cannot answer for everyone, however, imo, if you truly love someone, you put their happiness above your own selfish desires in relation to them. Lily simply would not be happy without her family and Snape should have recognized that. Snape also should have given up any hope of any type of relationship between himself and Lily long before he went to Dumbledore on the hill.


wickedwickedboy there is really no need for me to further discuss this matter as my POV is clear and explained and differs with your POV so much that its really difficult to convince each other of our POV's. Also because I think we have already started to repeat our points and replying in a circle the same things. Many things you said have been replied already in my previous posts.

As what you said above is already been answered in my previous post.

"if you truly love someone, you put their happiness above your own selfish desires in relation to them"

This is what he did, didn't he agreed to keep her family safe just because they matter to her? Is there really any point of my previous posts or yours if we will keep on repeating the same things over and over again.


I think you made your point very well. While I do not agree with you, I certainly can respect your viewpoint. :)

Thats really nice of you, you know. Thanks.



**I should add, that while we are discussing Snape's character, because Lily is so heavily involved in the conversation, it would probably be better discussed in the "Snape and Lily Character" thread. We can continue over there if you would like. :)

No point as I said above. We will keep on moving in circles. But it was a nice experience talking to you anyway.

And that's why Dumbledore said "you disgust me", and I agreed with him. If his actions were so selfless and he was just neglecting James and Harry because of his panic for Lily, it would not have made sense for Dumbledore to speak with so much contempt. He recognized the fact that Snape did not in any way care about Lily's family, and it disgusted him.

That is the moment when he did change sides. And he stayed, staunchly and unwaveringly, on the side of good, for the following eighteen years, long after losing everything he might have started fighting for. People are never 'static' in my experience; they change all the time. Severus joining the Death Eaters wasn't the same like the hopeful kid coming to Hogwarts years before. The man imploring Dumbledore for help was another man than the man we see in the time of Harry's school time. The man on the verge of killing himself in the night of Lily's death isn't the same man that had the nerve to defy Voldemort. People undergo an evolution in itself during their lifetime, I believe, and Severus is a beautiful example for that idea. You make decisions, good and bad, and then you have to live with that, and it changes you, it makes you more bitter, but also better in some cases, and it never stops, until you die. And in my eyes, even in his dying moment, Severus did make a last - and significant - transition - he came to terms with Harry, not only as the son of the man he had hated, but also as the child of the woman he had loved, and seeing Harry on the whole, not merely as a pitiful orphan that he's never seen, or a nuisance in the potions classroom.

Hang on, I think it's already stated in canon that Sev loved Lily WAAYY before she got married to James or even started dating him. Harry even said he loved her since they were children in his duel with Voldy in DH. Was he supposed to just stop loving her right when she got married? Maybe it's just my understanding of love and human emotion, but that is way too easily said than done. You're feelings for someone aren't just something you can just stop at a certain point.

And if his love is so "immoral", what does that say about JKR and how she created this character?

Ditto, coulden't agree more.:tu:

:whistle: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=111984) :whistle:

I think it is an absolute fallacy to read anything about Snape's attitude towards the sanctity of marriage into his response to Dumbledore on the hilltop.

I respect your opinion; however that is my interpretation. Imo, Snape should have never asked Voldemort to spare Lily, but instead, gone straight to Dumbledore and insisted that he save the entire family. That would have been the correct thing to do in my opinion. However, that would presuppose Snape had controlled his emotions for Lily, which he hadn't. The choices Snape made showed a distinct disregard for the sanctity of Lily's marriage to James, imo. The storyline necessitated Snape going to Voldemort first, but that does not excuse his action, Imo.

Imo, it was written that way for a reason - part of which was to show just how depraved a group the Death Eaters were. Throughout this particular discussion this fact seems to be continually overlooked, and yet I feel it is crucial to understanding how Snape could have arrived at the point he had. This is a man who watched people die that he could save and did not save them. I stress that to show just how awful of an experience Snape had undergone and the affect it had upon him. That is why it is not surprising that he might consider saving only Lily, the woman he fancied himself in love with and even hold the hope that one day they might be together romantically.

I do understand that some people do not like to see Snape's character in that light, but between Dumbledore's disgust and Snape's own words (not to forget his initial request of Voldemort which would leave Lily in his hands), there is not much room for interpretation - in my opinion (respecting the idea that others may believe there is).

The point is, Snape changed down the line - but at that very point in his life, Snape was a loyal Death Eater and there is no one in canon who was not affected by being one. The series would have read very false if that had been the case, imo, because one cannot be in a group that practices small scale genocide and torturous murders of individuals without being affected unless they are Voldemort himself. And that includes only if one is watching, imo - knowing they can do something to save the person being tortured and killed, and doing nothing to save them, is just as impactual imo. In fact, merely belonging to such a group and knowing exactly what they are doing (which the entire wizard world knew), and not participating or watching at all would be impactual. However, we know Snape did at least witness these things because he admitted as much himself (DH The Prince's tale).

Severus did make a last - and significant - transition - he came to terms with Harry, not only as the son of the man he had hated, but also as the child of the woman he had loved, and seeing Harry on the whole, not merely as a pitiful orphan that he's never seen, or a nuisance in the potions classroom.

I respect your opinion. How do you figure that Snape was able to do that? Imo, Snape never really knew Harry at all except for outward appearances and actions (which in his opinion, made him just like his dad and the reason he disliked him). Snape's reaching such an opinion would be based purely on the account of others and at no time did Snape seem to take kindly to changing his mind about either Harry or Harry's father based on someone else's opinion.

That is the moment when he did change sides. And he stayed, staunchly and unwaveringly, on the side of good, for the following eighteen years, long after losing everything he might have started fighting for. People are never 'static' in my experience; they change all the time. Severus joining the Death Eaters wasn't the same like the hopeful kid coming to Hogwarts years before. The man imploring Dumbledore for help was another man than the man we see in the time of Harry's school time. The man on the verge of killing himself in the night of Lily's death isn't the same man that had the nerve to defy Voldemort. People undergo an evolution in itself during their lifetime, I believe, and Severus is a beautiful example for that idea. You make decisions, good and bad, and then you have to live with that, and it changes you, it makes you more bitter, but also better in some cases, and it never stops, until you die. And in my eyes, even in his dying moment, Severus did make a last - and significant - transition - he came to terms with Harry, not only as the son of the man he had hated, but also as the child of the woman he had loved, and seeing Harry on the whole, not merely as a pitiful orphan that he's never seen, or a nuisance in the potions classroom.

Oh I agree that he did change in that respect. It probably took him years (I doubt a change like that could happen overnight), but he got there in the end. That, IMO, is why Jo included his line, later in TPT, "lately, only those I could not save". He did what he could, when he could (for example, trying to save Remus). I'm not entirely sure at what point in time he really did change, though. I was just pointing out that at the time, on the hilltop, IMO he showed no care whatsoever for the lives of those Lily loved, and so while analyzing his character at that point in time, that fact is very significant.


Imo, it was written that way for a reason - part of which was to show just how depraved a group the Death Eaters were. Throughout this particular discussion this fact seems to be continually overlooked, and yet I feel it is crucial to understanding how Snape could have arrived at the point he had. This is a man who watched people die that he could save and did not save them. I stress that to show just how awful of an experience Snape had undergone and the affect it had upon him. That is why it is not surprising that he might consider saving only Lily, the woman he fancied himself in love with and even holding a hope that one day they might be together romantically.

I do understand that some people do not like to see Snape's character in that light, but between Dumbledore's disgust and Snape's own words (not to forget his initial request of Voldemort which would leave Lily in his hands), there is not much room for interpretation.

I agree; at that point in time, he watched people die, people he could have saved but did not. He could have gone up to Dumbledore, asked him to save Lily, and after Dumbledore's comment "They can die, as long as you get what you want?" he could have said "No, save them as well". But he did not, and that shows what he was like at the time. He wasn't going to change dramatically in a few minutes; that kind of thing takes a lot of time. And we do see that after years, he did change.

I agree; at that point in time, he watched people die, people he could have saved but did not. He could have gone up to Dumbledore, asked him to save Lily, and after Dumbledore's comment "They can die, as long as you get what you want?" he could have said "No, save them as well". But he did not, and that shows what he was like at the time. He wasn't going to change dramatically in a few minutes; that kind of thing takes a lot of time. And we do see that after years, he did change.The most damning thing about his exchange with Dumbledore was the fact that he had seriously considered only saving Lily. Of course he couldn't ask Voldemort to spare Harry, but he could ask Dumbledore. But his first request to Dumbledore was to protect Lily. He only acceded that the whole family be protected when Dumbledore expressed his disgust.

When Snape was dying and told Harry to look at him, that was the first time he'd seen Harry in DH. I was thinking it would be right in line with Jo's humor if she later told us that Snape asked Harry to look at him because he wanted to make sure he had both ears!

:lol::lol::lol: ROTFLMAO!!! My sides are still hurting!
It wouldn't surprise me at all. IMO, he is one of the most human character in the series, because let's face it, human beings are selfish, which is not a virtue by any means. It (being selfish) is not right, but it is human nature. Humans LEARN how to share and try not to be selfish, out of diplomacy but we are not born with that quality. It is a way of guaranteeing survival. He is a selfish, bitter and vindictive man, but I think those characteristics are what made this character so unique and debate-worthy. What I find redeemable about him is that he did have a conscience and he made the right choices in the end. After all, aren't our choices the one that determine who we are? At least According to Jo.

After all, aren't our choices the one that determine who we are? At least According to Jo.
If this is true, than I am proud to say that Sev was a spiteful and bitter man who treated Harry like ****, AND had an undying love for one woman and stood by that love till his last breath after he said "Look at me". And I don't think his faults could ever overide his good qualities or vice versa, because it is both that makes a human being complete in it's natural complexity.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :rockon:

I did a lot of driving over Thanksgiving, and (for the first time) listened to HBP to pass the time. (Thanks, Fleur du Mal, for the suggestion!) It's interesting that certain details jump out more when hearing the words than when reading. Amyway, this caught my eye:

"She gave me her life, but you won't give me a memory."
Hagrid's rumbling snores filled the cabin. Harry looked steadily into Slughorn's tear-filled eyes. The Potions master seemed unable to look away.


I wonder, was Rowling's use of "the Potions master" in this particular bit of that conversation, intentional? It is the one time in the whole chapter that he is referred to by those words, which are far more commonly associated with Snape in the books (for example, this is the title of the PS/SS chapter in which we meet Snape). While it is true that Sluggie teaches Potions, the use of that phrase right there, right when discussing Lily's sacrifice and what someone else is willing to do because of it, just leapt out at me when I heard it.

Just like Lily, Snape was also willing to give Harry his life.

If this is true, than I am proud to say that Sev was a spiteful and bitter man who treated Harry like ****, AND had an undying love for one woman and stood by that love till his last breath after he said "Look at me". And I don't think his faults could ever overide his good qualities or vice versa, because it is both that makes a human being complete in it's natural complexity.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :rockon:

EXACTLY!!! Couldn't agree more :tu: Isn't it ironic that even if he treated his students very bad (specially Harry) people find him a lot of fun to read. I've heard people calling him: "a very real character". He is not "too good" or "too bad".

I did a lot of driving over Thanksgiving, and (for the first time) listened to HBP to pass the time. (Thanks, Fleur du Mal, for the suggestion!) It's interesting that certain details jump out more when hearing the words than when reading. Amyway, this caught my eye:

"She gave me her life, but you won't give me a memory."
Hagrid's rumbling snores filled the cabin. Harry looked steadily into Slughorn's tear-filled eyes. The Potions master seemed unable to look away.


I wonder, was Rowling's use of "the Potions master" in this particular bit of that conversation, intentional? It is the one time in the whole chapter that he is referred to by those words, which are far more commonly associated with Snape in the books (for example, this is the title of the PS/SS chapter in which we meet Snape). While it is true that Sluggie teaches Potions, the use of that phrase right there, right when discussing Lily's sacrifice and what someone else is willing to do because of it, just leapt out at me when I heard it.

Just like Lily, Snape was also willing to give Harry his life.

That is a cool find Zara. Actually what leapt out at me while reading it was that Lily gave Harry her life and both Slughorn and Snape gave Harry a memory(ies). Both were potions masters and technically Harry could have used the same line on both of them with a similar impact (if he had know about Snape's emotions for his mum). I was trying to find some link between Hagrid snoring in that scene and Snape's final moments (maybe in connection with Hermione?), but I can't really think of anything. But I do think the 'potions master' may have been intentional.

I did a lot of driving over Thanksgiving, and (for the first time) listened to HBP to pass the time. (Thanks, Fleur du Mal, for the suggestion!) It's interesting that certain details jump out more when hearing the words than when reading. Amyway, this caught my eye:

"She gave me her life, but you won't give me a memory."
Hagrid's rumbling snores filled the cabin. Harry looked steadily into Slughorn's tear-filled eyes. The Potions master seemed unable to look away.


I wonder, was Rowling's use of "the Potions master" in this particular bit of that conversation, intentional? It is the one time in the whole chapter that he is referred to by those words, which are far more commonly associated with Snape in the books (for example, this is the title of the PS/SS chapter in which we meet Snape). While it is true that Sluggie teaches Potions, the use of that phrase right there, right when discussing Lily's sacrifice and what someone else is willing to do because of it, just leapt out at me when I heard it.

Just like Lily, Snape was also willing to give Harry his life.

I never noticed that one! OMG! Good one. :tu: You are totally right. IMO, this was intentional. Either Jo doesn't leave anything to chance or maybe I'm getting a little bit paranoid. :lol:

I did a lot of driving over Thanksgiving, and (for the first time) listened to HBP to pass the time. (Thanks, Fleur du Mal, for the suggestion!) It's interesting that certain details jump out more when hearing the words than when reading. Amyway, this caught my eye:

"She gave me her life, but you won't give me a memory."
Hagrid's rumbling snores filled the cabin. Harry looked steadily into Slughorn's tear-filled eyes. The Potions master seemed unable to look away.


I wonder, was Rowling's use of "the Potions master" in this particular bit of that conversation, intentional? It is the one time in the whole chapter that he is referred to by those words, which are far more commonly associated with Snape in the books (for example, this is the title of the PS/SS chapter in which we meet Snape). While it is true that Sluggie teaches Potions, the use of that phrase right there, right when discussing Lily's sacrifice and what someone else is willing to do because of it, just leapt out at me when I heard it.

Just like Lily, Snape was also willing to give Harry his life.
I'm telling ya! I always knew there had be something with Book 6 being the one book that pretty much had the most references to Lily, AND being titled after Snape. I remember first reading, the book just screamed out "Lily and Potions! Lily and Potions!" like it was being pounded into my head.

Okay, this really should go into the Sev and Lily thread. Back to just Sev! :love:

You're welcome, Zgirnius! :)

That find is really a brilliant one :tu:

I think it might be interesting to take a look at the two Potions Masters we come across in the books and compare them. Slughorn and Severus are very different indeed. They have the same position at some points in their life, they're representatives of the same house, have a weak spot for Lily and display a certain favourititsm. I think that's as far as the superficial similarities go.

Slughorn is a jovial type. He's all about booming laughter, and friendly phrases, and can be favourably impressed by someone giving him the right sort of candy. Which has turned him into a rotund man with round, pink cheeks.

Severus is the anti-social type, one for smirks and snide remarks, and is as far from being impressed by candied pineapples as he is from becoming Neville's favourite teacher. He's a scrawny man with sallow, hollow cheeks.

Despite Slughorn's position as a Potions Master for many years (stretching from Riddle's school time to Severus' time, at least), he is still sticking to a comparably useless book. Apparently, he never bothered to make improvements - but if a student adds a sprinkle of peppermint to a potion, he'll recomment him for the nice smell.

Severus worked on improvements and alterations on recipes even as a student. As a teacher, he completely abandons the book and has the students work with his own recipes. As far as I remember there are no laudations in his classroom, not even for Draco, and surely not for making a potion smell better.

The most striking difference, IMO, is in the social quarter. Slughorn likes bonding. He's worked on a network of 'valuable sources' over the years, and strictly sticks to the 'Do Ut Des' concept. 'I introduce you to the right people - and you will owe me a favour in the future, lad'. He delivers that very charmingly, but it's calculating and self-serving still, even if there's certainly no harm in the favours Slughorn will ask for - season tickets and gift baskets and juicy gossip.

Severus is no man for fraternisation. He, too, worked on his own kind of network - but his purpose was very different. He wasn't after backstage tickets, or personal gain of any other kind. He wanted to be prepared for the return of Voldemort, not win a prize for 'Hogwarts' most likeable teacher of the year'. Pretty much everything that mattered for Slughorn was worthless for Severus.

How do we come to meet old Horace then? He pretends to be dead - the old, well-known defence mechanism shown in various kind in the animal kingdom, and human psychology as well. Slughorn doesn't want to become involved - for no side, and I think that is a facet of being sly. As Aunt Constance of Gosford Park says 'The time to commit yourself to one side is never.' Mind you, Slughorn is of a rather well-meaning indifference - he never falls for the Dark side either, even when it looks as if they were the winning side.

Severus did fall for them, and in his case, I don't think that it was a succumbing to necessity, i.e. choose the winner's side to protect his own skin. I think that was the genuine conviction of a seventeen year old boy. For all his detachment, he is never indifferent. And benevolence isn't like him either.

He, too, is pretending when it comes to the big conflict, but in a strange way, it seems to me as if he's pretending to be alive when he's long dead on the inside, since Lily's death. He's got to hide that in order to play his role, and he's a better actor than Slughorn - or maybe I'm wronging Sluhorn there, because Dumbledore was able to look through both of them and poke them where it stirrs them most.

Now in HBP, these two are thrown into sharp relief, when Slughorn comes and takes Severus' place - in the Potions classroom for a start, as the Head of Slytherin House in the end. Harry could have gained from comparing these two more closely. Why, he could even have wondered why the Potions book he was so fond of would resemble his old teacher's lectures more than the classes he's having now, which are constructed exactly after the book's original version. In general, Harry is ruled by instinct. His dislike of Severus is grown and put into concrete all right, but his reaction to Slughorn is much more 'base'. He can't put his finger on the sore spot, but he's not too fond of Slughorn right from the beginning. On the other hand, he is fond of the 'Prince' for similarly vague reasons, and it's not because the Prince enables Harry to be a potions genius all of a sudden. In that respect, Harry has no ambitious streak whatsoever. He is capable of instinctively embracing the old owner of that book - and here, no 'visible' obstacles on face-value cloud his assessment.


EDIT:
Originally Posted by Fleur du mal
Severus did make a last - and significant - transition - he came to terms with Harry, not only as the son of the man he had hated, but also as the child of the woman he had loved, and seeing Harry on the whole, not merely as a pitiful orphan that he's never seen, or a nuisance in the potions classroom.
I respect your opinion. How do you figure that Snape was able to do that?

Because in the moment of his death, he does show faith in Harry. And he gives him something that no one else could have given to him, and I don't mean Dumbledore's plan. Severus gives him memories that are supposed to guard the kid on his way to death. 'This was your mum. You see what a marvellous creature she was? Make your choice. Don't submit yourself to someone else's plan - make that choice for yourself. And if you do what I believe you will do, you'll be with that wonderful woman soon.' Severus could have squeezed his eyes shut in his last moment. Close his eyes and focus on his memories of someone he loved for the greatest part of his life. Like he preferred to keep his eyes shut to Harry's true nature for many years. Instead, he opens his eyes wide and implores Harry to look at him, and that look works in both ways. 'Look at me. See me as a whole, as I can see you there right now. Trust me, as I am trusting you in this moment.'

Well, that's my reading of the scene, anyway. I know that others see it differently; I guess that simply depends from person to person.

Originally posted by Fleur du Mal

Because in the moment of his death, he does show faith in Harry. And he gives him something that no one else could have given to him, and I don't mean Dumbledore's plan. Severus gives him memories that are supposed to guard the kid on his way to death. 'This was your mum. You see what a marvellous creature she was? Make your choice. Don't submit yourself to someone else's plan - make that choice for yourself. And if you do what I believe you will do, you'll be with that wonderful woman soon.' Severus could have squeezed his eyes shut in his last moment. Close his eyes and focus on his memories of someone he loved for the greatest part of his life. Like he preferred to keep his eyes shut to Harry's true nature for many years. Instead, he opens his eyes wide and implores Harry to look at him, and that look works in both ways. 'Look at me. See me as a whole, as I can see you there right now. Trust me, as I am trusting you in this moment.'

Well, that's my reading of the scene, anyway. I know that others see it differently; I guess that simply depends from person to person.

Beautifully said.... :upset: Personally I feel "Look at me" and the Silver Doe chapter where the Doe and Harry gaze at each other for several long moments was I think when Severus truly sees the Lily in Harry and for me is one of the most beautiful and poignant moments of the book... and I think Severus does feel at least tinge of warmth towards Harry... Yes he used the Silver Doe to lure Harry to the sword... but there was no need for the patronus to gaze at Harry for several long moments... This sentence is in a paragraph of its own... independent of what has happened before and after..

Because in the moment of his death, he does show faith in Harry. And he gives him something that no one else could have given to him, and I don't mean Dumbledore's plan. Severus gives him memories that are supposed to guard the kid on his way to death. 'This was your mum. You see what a marvellous creature she was? Make your choice. Don't submit yourself to someone else's plan - make that choice for yourself. And if you do what I believe you will do, you'll be with that wonderful woman soon.'

I respect your opinion, but objectively speaking, is not the cornerstone of your argument that Snape had faith that Harry would do what Snape believed he would do? I mean no impertinence whatsoever, but an honest question; isn't it Dumbledore's faith in Harry that we are speaking of here and Snape as his channel?

Ignisia opened a floodgate of thought when she indicated she had voted that Snape cared for James. While that is naturally debatable, it led me to make an altogether different discovery: Snape in the memories not only showed Lily to Harry; but Snape also revealed something very important about the view of James he had given Harry for 6.5 years. Do you see it?

I believe that part of the reason Harry's faith in the veracity of the memories was achieved, was because of the revelations Snape made not only in regard to Lily, but also in regard to James from Snape's more honest view point - and of course Snape's own life.


Severus could have squeezed his eyes shut in his last moment. Close his eyes and focus on his memories of someone he loved for the greatest part of his life. Like he preferred to keep his eyes shut to Harry's true nature for many years. Instead, he opens his eyes wide and implores Harry to look at him, and that look works in both ways. 'Look at me. See me as a whole, as I can see you there right now. Trust me, as I am trusting you in this moment.'

Well, that's my reading of the scene, anyway. I know that others see it differently; I guess that simply depends from person to person.

I respect your view - and you already know we differ on this. However, your assertion of Snape's trust in Harry goes back to my above question. Is Snape the party who is exhibiting trust in Harry, or is it Dumbledore?

And of course my question goes beyond the 'look at me' statement which I truly believe was Snape desiring to look at Lily's eyes as he moved on. Harry was looking elsewhere and if Snape wished to see his eyes, he had to ask him to look at him.

I do not believe it would be possible for Harry to divine all of the meaning that you have indicated might lie behind Snape's words and I believe Snape would be wise enough to recognize that. If he wanted Harry to know he trusted him, had faith in him, wished him to be at peace because he would join his family in death, be autonomous, know all of Snape's life and judge him accordingly (quite a lot of information) then I think Snape would have used a different phrase. As we saw in canon, Harry thought none of those things. However, upon viewing the memories, Snape's desire to see Lily's eyes at death would be clear to him - further I believe Harry knew that Snape still loathed him - he was a pretty wise individual and his own feelings toward Snape had not changed at that point.

Ah! Finally got back! Forgive me, I was abducted by extraterrestrials for a couple of days. No worries, though. ;)

FDM- A couple things I want to add about your very detailed comparison between Snape and Slughorn:

I also think Snape truly loves his subject more than Slughorn. Slughorn seems to have an appreciation for Potions and a good sense of how to brew them, but he doesn't take the time to improve on the usual instructions or wax poetic about it.

There is also being prepared. When Harry lobs a Filibuster firework at Goyle's cauldron in CoS, coating everyone in Swellling Solution, Snape has a Deflating Draught on hand. He also has a Shrinking Solution antidote with him in PoA. Slughorn panics when Ron is poisoned and doesn't know what to do. Granted, this is outside class and so he doesn't expect it, but it still has to be Harry who manages to save Ron's life.

Snape doesn't hold back the truth (as he sees it), as Slughorn does. Slughorn is for saying just the right thing to make people like him, and feigning a great deal of interest (he shows us that his interest is purely conditional, when he rejects Marcus Belby because the boy hardly knows his famous uncle Damocles). Snape is the exact opposite. He doesn't care what people think of him and will be as rude as he pleases if he sees cause for it. If some student tries talking to him about their daily troubles and family life, he'd probably tell them to--ah-- be quiet. :lol:

There is also being prepared. When Harry lobs a Filibuster firework at Goyle's cauldron in CoS, coating everyone in Swellling Solution, Snape has a Deflating Draught on hand. He also has a Shrinking Solution antidote with him in PoA. Slughorn panics when Ron is poisoned and doesn't know what to do. Granted, this is outside class and so he doesn't expect it, but it still has to be Harry who manages to save Ron's life.


Well to be fair, the antidote was not a potion. Slughorn may have been just as prepared in class as Snape was. Unless I am mistaken, Slughorn taught it for many more years than Snape (he was teaching both when Voldemort attended, 50 years before Harry (perhaps many years before that), at least until the time of Harry's parents matriculation - and perhaps longer?). So I would say that he would be as experienced, if not more so, than Snape. Snape waxed poetic for short moments, about both of the subjects we saw him teach - he seemed to be quite entranced with both. However, I am not certain that had anything to do with his loving the subject more than Slughorn; perhaps they merely approached it distinctly (i.e., passionately versus scientifically).

EDIT:

. On the other hand, he is fond of the 'Prince' for similarly vague reasons, and it's not because the Prince enables Harry to be a potions genius all of a sudden. In that respect, Harry has no ambitious streak whatsoever. He is capable of instinctively embracing the old owner of that book - and here, no 'visible' obstacles on face-value cloud his assessment.

I respect that interpretation; but I think it is a little too poetic for Harry. Imo, there is nothing in a list of potion ingredients, including which way to turn a potion, how to help someone who swallows poison and a curse for enemies that would make one 'instinctively embrace the author', imo. It may be that I am misunderstanding you, and if so, pardon me. Imo, the book did not enlighten the user to deep aspects of Snape's character. Thus, the only thing embraceable about the book would be the intelligence and creativity of the scribbler. Harry already knew that Snape was intelligent and creative - what he hoped was that his dad (who he also knew was intelligent and creative) was reaching out to help him from the grave. When that didn't pan out, he checked to see if his other father figures Sirius or Remus were the authors. Hermione was warning him against using it, insisting Harry was cheating (which he was) and yet, if this was a familial hand-me-down, Harry would have every right to have the knowledge he could have obtained if his father or Sirius were living (or if he asked Remus). Baring that, he was just flat out cheating.

Because Snape did not want Harry to have the book (based on his reaction when he found out Harry had it), Harry was indeed cheating in absolute; and of course he then realized that he wanted nothing to do with the book which may have proven helpful during his quest for the horocruxes. But Harry considered it evil like its owner and that is why he didn't retrieve it and instead left it in the ROR to be burned to a crisp with everything else in that particular storage room.

On a slightly different topic do you think that given the chance Snape would have saved the muggle studies teacher at the start if he could have done it without blowing his cover or would he have seen it as having nothing to do with his mission and just left her?