Harry Using the Cruciatus Curse

first off....saying the word Crucio and performing an unforgiveable curse is NOT the same thing...like Bellatrix said, you have to mean it...
but i don't think harry will try to use any more unforgiveable curses, he'll have to kille voldie without avada kedavra

Ahh. I see what you mean...and I like it. I mentioned this as well in the thread concerning the prophecy that they could physically live together, but their consciences won't let them....mentally. Naturally, I was ousted with suprising intesity for their craving for a more dramatic and traditional meaning....however I tend to think this version more so. I'm glad to see someone else sees it this was as well.

By the way, it's been pleasure debating with you. :cool:

I honestly cannot see how they could think that the prophecy is to be taken in a physical sense. Both are living right now... And the prophecy expressedly states that neither can live... But for the last 15 years, both have been living... And now more than ever... The way that Harry has dwelled on the deaths in the previous books, I think JK has created a pattern that will continue until the end... How can Harry summon up the strength and nerve to battle LV to the death if he is not constantly reminded of the pain he has caused...

"Again I use the gun example. If Harry aimed it at Bella and missed, so what? He tried to shoot her."
_Using_magic_is_not_the_same_as_using_a_gun_. The gun is mechanical; it's triggered by movement; a machine could work it. A spell is performed partly with ones wand but more with ones mind. As I understand it, three things are needed for a spell:
1. Right wand movements and incantation
2. Intent to perform spell; willpower to make it work
3. Right motivation; correct reason for intending to make the spell work
The more powerful and deep the magic, the more important 2 and 3 are.

When Harry used the Cruciatus Curse, he had 1 and 2, he intended to cause pain and had the incantation right etc. That he intended to cause pain is worrying, more worrying in fact than if he had had the intent to kill. I quite agree with you that this intent was evil.

BUT what Harry didn't have was 3; he didn't want to cause pain because he enjoyed others suffering, he wanted to cause pain because Bellatrix deserved it. This is why the curse didn't fully work and this shows that he's NOT as bad as Bellatrix.

Had it not worked simply because he didn't point his wand right or say the incantation correctly, that would indeed have been the same as if he missed with a gun. But the reason (as I understand it) the spell didn't work was to do with Harry's motivation, and it's the motivation and intent that count in a moral way.

"What if it HAD worked?"
That would have shown that Harry was as sadistic as Bellatrix. But he isn't, so it didn't.

"Would that have been just?"
It would have been just, but not right. Justice is seperate from goodness, although they sometimes run side by side. Humans can't inflict justice on their fellow humans with impunity, because to inflict justice on some people is evil in itself. If Harry had given Bellatrix what she deserved he would have sunk to her level, I agree. But she still deserved it.

"Would that have brought Sirius back? Would it have righted any situation?"
I agree, it wouldn't have. I'm not disputing that this was _a_bad_thing_for_Harry_to_have_done_, I'm just saying that _he_hasn't_actually_sunk_to_her_level_.

I apologise for repeating myself and using underscores to excess. :)

Like she said you have to really mean to inflict pain when using one. Harry was inexperienced at it and it didn't work. But I'm sure he'll have to use one at least once more when he battles Voldemort. Otherwise he'll be the one that dies and we just can't have that.

how the heck did harry even use the cruciatus curse?wouldnt it be far too difficult?

the patronus charm was also hard, but he was instructed how to use it. harry used the cruciatus cuse outta no where.i guess he did see it alot tho, so it mightve helped :\

But just because it is a curse that is regarded as one of the unforgivables doesn't mean it is necessarily terribly difficult to perform. It could be easier than the patronus charm.......we can't know for sure. (Or maybe I'm just a retard.)

Semehow I think that all three of the Unforgivables require about the same amount of magic behind them and we heard Crouch say that he thought the entire class could take their wands out and say "Avada Kedavra " and he wouldn't even get a nosebleed. Um, care to make a small wager on that Barty? Oh, I thought not.

I think that just because Harry used an unforgivable curse, it doesn't mean he'll go over to the dark side. Well, maybe, but I really hope he doesn't, because that would sort of twist things around too much.

Anyway, Harry wasn't even skilled at it using the Cruciatus Curse, all Bellatrix got was a small jolt, so... yeah. Oh, Whatever.

He wasn't skilled at all? She shrieked in pain and fell to the floor. I got the impression that her taunt was a bravado taunt, like Voldemort's bogus taunt to Dumbledore.

Anyway, Harry wasn't even skilled at it using the Cruciatus Curse, all Bellatrix got was a small jolt, so... yeah.

Actually, I always thought that Harry had just let up the curse too fast. For example, when Voldemort used the curse on Harry in Goblet of Fire, it says that he pulled his wand up (or something along the lines of that) and the curse was 'lifted'. I always assumed that he had used the curse normally, and was a bit startled that it actually worked, and that had broken his concentration, which is why the curse was let up so quickly and she was able to recover.

But of course, the idea that Harry is pure good and isn't able to use something that causes pain has been so much more appealing... :shrug:

Well, Harry isn't pure good any more not that he's used an Unforgivable Curse ;) Oh yes, and how she "She shrieked in pain and fell to the floor." The more hurt she is, the better! I must say, she DID deserve it, after what she did...

"Well, Harry isn't pure good any more not that he's used an Unforgivable Curse"
Harry's never been pure good. Think how boring it would be if he were! What he is is pure human, which may not sound like much, but we have to remember that Voldemort isn't entirely human, so Harry has an advantage over him. I'm still sure, though, that he didn't and doesn't have enough evil in him to make an Unforgivable Curse work properly.

I don't think that will be the last time we see Harry perform (or try to perform..) an unforgivable curse. Remember that his life will either include or end with a murder..... and that's a long way to go, especially since Voldemort has a lot of supporters...

He wil definately use an unforgivable curse at least once again: When he kills Voldie. Come on... you don't think Voldie is going to kill him, do you? It's much more likely that Harry will kill Voldie.
There are probably other spells that can kill, other than Avada. (i.e. if Dumbledore can move statues around, imagine if he caused the security guard's desk to fly over and knock your head off.)

Also, AK requires a wand, and if the two of them are dueling fairly, the wands will lock up in that phoenix Priori Incantatem net again. It'll be a duel for the ages, but I think it'll be wandless. It's also possible that Harry's wand could snap next year and he'll need a new one.

I dont think we will be seeing Harry performing and Illegal Curses anytime soon, like many people have been saying wands probably wont be used in the final battle and if Harry didnt have enough emotion to kill Belatrix then I dont know when he would unless someone killed Hermione and Ron...

I was figuring that illegal curses are the same as guns... you are in trouble if you use one to murder but you can use one in self-defense.

I think Harry will try and eventually master unforgivable curses. We know is is very good at DDA and we will be disappointed if he did not succeed at U.C.(Unforgivable Curses). Afeter all he is the hero, he is supposed to be good at everything.
I dont mean by this that he will kill or torture anyone, only that he is able to master the art and much more than that!

But eventually he will realize love is the most powerful curse.

I wonder.. what would happen if he tried and avada kedavra on Voldie?

I dont think we will be seeing Harry performing and Illegal Curses anytime soon, like many people have been saying wands probably wont be used in the final battle and if Harry didnt have enough emotion to kill Belatrix then I dont know when he would unless someone killed Hermione and Ron...

I'm pretty sure that the Priori Incantem thing happens only when a spell from each wand is cast at the same time as a spell from the other and either the spells hit each other or one spell makes contact with the opposing wand. Therefore, they can and probably will still use wands to some extent. It's sort of like the problem British pilots had in WWI: they couldn't shoot straight forward because the bullets from the machine gun would chew up the propellor. But as long as they didn't shoot straight ahead, they worked fine.

Also, the unforgivables aren't a matter of just any emotion. If it were based on emotion, then Harry would be great at them, since he is an emotional guy. You have to a) really want it to happen and b) enjoy it when it does (paraphrasing Bellatrix herself). While Harry did want Bellatrix to feel pain, he is a decent enough guy not to enjoy torturing people, and the curse's power just wouldn't come.

there was so much magic goin on and it was so close together no one could tell who was castin what

Unfortunately, I do believe we will be seeing Harry perform the "unforgiveable" again. Depending on what comes with books 6 and 7, the possiblity of more shocking deaths is quite high. Harry is maturing emotionally and I think that the next time he will have more of a stomach for the consequnces of the curses themselves. :upset:Life has a way of making one less sensitive to others pain and Harry has definitely suffered enough to start making him that way. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

i knew that harry would use sum thing like that in this book bcuz of his mood change in the beginning. but still i was like o my gosh... what if he did it proparly and got punished! but he didn't so its kinda ok. Any way i dont think that harry is ever going to do the Imperious curse bcuz hes not the kinda person who would do that. Unless he REALLY wanted sumone to do sumthin......

tulip tonks - emotions run very high when youve had most of your family killed - tulip tonks

you have to really mean it and enjoy it for it to be used to it's full effect and there are very few people that Harry could mean it for.

I think he could use "crucio" on Malfoy (both) and really do some damage.

I don't know. He seems like the kind of guy where his guilt would get the better of him. He may be mad when he gets taunted or whatever, but I don't know if he would really MEAN the curse.

I think he could use "crucio" on Malfoy (both) and really do some damage.

Are you sure about that? Remember, Bellatrix had just killed a person whom was Harry's godfather, best friend, and fatherly figure....and he still couldn't complete the curse through its course. That says something. Malfoy, for all his snide remarks at Harry, has never done anything of that scope to him. I think it's going to take something really significant or a sudden realization to make Harry fully adept at casting and "following through" (I feel like a basketball coach :shrug: ) the crutacious curse. I wonder what would fit those categories....

I don't think Harry will use an unforgivable again...
cos they can't use it as self defense and i think he wasn't exactly thinking rationally

You never know, he could use one again.... It would take alot to make him do it, but its a possiblity... You never know....


Wouldn't he get in trouble? I mean because the imposter Moody said, "The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban." So even thought it didn't work and he used it on Bellatrix wouldn't he still get in trouble?


That was from another thread that someone start this topic, but was closed and I wanted to bring it up here...

Will Harry get in trouble for it? Or will they excuse it because of the circumstances? I dunno... I have a feeling he wont get in trouble for it this time... But if he does it again... Who knows.... He very may well get in trouble.

i don't reckon harry will get in trouble for using cruciatus curse against bellatrix because she isn't an ordinary witch and harry didn't use the curse against her for some stupid reason. i mean, bellatrix is already a criminal and a murderer who broke out of prison and she killed harry's godfather, the only person he had closest to a parent. she seriously damaged tonks, too. she tortured neville with the cruciatus curse a few minutes before she killed sirius. so, if there's anyone who should be in trouble because of the curses used that night is certainly bellatrix lestrange, not harry! and i don't think anyone will take harry using the curse seriously now that everyone knows the events of that night and how voldemort and his followers were fought against by dumbledore and harry.

i think that the reason that it didnt work is because...*drumroll...*he tried to hurt bellatrix out of his love for sirius, so the love inside of him is what prevented him from being able to successfully complete the curse (thank God...not a plot twist that i would want-harry stuck in azakaban..:no:) love is stronger than hate any day, so his love for sirius overpowered his hate for bellatrix....*at least that's what i think-any other ideas? do you hate my idea? if so then this :rasp: is for you-just kidding u know i luv yah!*

It really didnt worked because he didnt enjoy seing her sufering he only wanted her to pay but enjoing was not his intention

I am with the belief that the curse was a spontainious burst of anger at bellitrix and is not something that he will spend time trying to work on. Mabey, though, he may try to understand the curses and try invent ways to deflect them or lessen their effects or something like that. Nevelle, on the other hand....... I wouldnt be too surprised if he tried something like that on her. whether he could DO it or not is another thing. He has had a Loong time for his hate to simmer, and now he knows the death eater who did it. Also, to starry marauder, I totally agree with that idea. love vs hate...very good! I wonder if nevelle has any love that could counter act his hate..
NET

But could Neville ENJOY it? That's the key, not just meaning it. Harry meant it all right, he just didn't enjoy it. I doubt very many Gryffindor-type people can enjoy it.

I dont want to think that any of the students could hate that much, even slytheryns. They are just too young to have that much hate and to derive that much pleasure from others pain.

Yup, I think Neville can bring himself to enjoy revenge. AI believe there are even more depths to young Mr. Longbottom than we have yet seen. But I see him focusing on an effective AK not on torture. I don't think Harry will spend the summer channeling his hatred. He knows that his mother's sacrifice and his own bond with Sirius saved him and are much more powerful than his rage and his hate.

I think that neville wont use the curses because he has lived his life knowing about lestrange but harry will use again a forbiden curse and the MoM will aprove him to use them agains DE

I was glad to see him use the curse as it rang true. It was well set up, and a fitting and human response, particularly right after having seen Sirius's death, not to mention his earlier glimpse of the poor Longbottoms at St. Mungo's. The cause of all this misery was right before him, poised to attack.


To have a main character who is completely good and pure all of the time no matter what would be unrealistic and boring. People are not like that, even the best of us. I know Rowling has created a world out of fantasy, but the reason it resonates with so many of us is because the characters generally are nuanced, at least the major players, anyway. Harry was so, well, human and teenaged in Book Five. She has done such a great job with his development.

I don't think Harry's response was uncharacteristic of him, either. CoS implied that he'd be in Slytherin if he hadn't asked to be placed elsewhere. Harry's never been one for the rules. He is essentially good, but a bit of a rogue in many ways as well, which makes him so much more interesting and endearing.

After all, Percy has followed the rules without question, even when it meant hurting his family.(Given his blind ambition, one wonders how he missed Slytherin. Perhaps he'll redeem himself later!) His character almost seems drawn as a parody of those types. Rules aren't necessarily made to be broken, but those who follow them blindly and without question don't make for the best people or characters, as history shows.

As for using the curse again, Harrry will be the central figure in a war, a fight to the death. Surely he'll have to use extreme measures. What it does to him is the story we all await!

Well. first i wonder does it require alot of magic.. like you have to have to have a lot of magic...(somethign like that) or does it simply have to be that u have to want to enjoy the simply fact of torturing soemone.. and secondly i hope J.k. tells us more abotu these curses. Imperius sound like a hard spell ...... i kno it just doesnt involve saying the incantation..... and it was surprising btu i like how j.k. made harry use the spell........

I think that he will use them on Bellatrix every chance he has... he'll blame her and himself for Sirius.

I still can't get used to writing that Sirius has died! Ach!

i think harry, neville or both of them will probably kill belltrix, or at least do something to her.. probably using an unforgivable curse thing

What could make harry use an Unforgiveable curse again?I think that if one of Harry's friends like Ron or Hermoine were to be killed by a death eater.He could snap and start AKing the DEs.
Just my thoughts =)

I was glad to see him use the curse as it rang true. It was well set up, and a fitting and human response, particularly right after having seen Sirius's death, not to mention his earlier glimpse of the poor Longbottoms at St. Mungo's. The cause of all this misery was right before him, poised to attack.

To have a main character who is completely good and pure all of the time no matter what would be unrealistic and boring. People are not like that, even the best of us. I know Rowling has created a world out of fantasy, but the reason it resonates with so many of us is because the characters generally are nuanced, at least the major players, anyway. Harry was so, well, human and teenaged in Book Five. She has done such a great job with his development.

I agree... you know, Harry never really thinks before he acts (very Sirius-ish, actually :) ), or then he acts on his emotions... it was the same with the Cruciatus Curse... lol, I WANTED him to hurt Bellatrix BADLY, but anyways, I think it really fit the story. I mean, Harry had just seen Sirius die, what was he supposed to do, say "hey !! that wasn't fair" and let her escape? ;)

Yeah, I agree with what carrie just said. He was pretty mad and upset and I probably would have done the same thing.Well, maybe not, because you have to have all of Harry characteristics, and all of his experiences to be just like him ;)Anyways, as for if Harry will ever use the Forgivable Curses again, I seriuosly don't think so. He might use it against Voldemort in the last book, but I doubt he'll go on a "cursing-spree" and start cursing every Death Eater he counters. He might start yelling/threatening them, but not cursing per say. That's because in the case with Bellatrix, Sirus had just recently died and the anger was still very strong inside Harry.

I wasn't really surprised when harry tried to use crucio on Bellatrix because when i was reading the book and playing the scene out in my head it just seemed natural for him to take off after her and want her to feel the pain that he was feeling when she killed Sirius. i don't think he'll use another one because i don't think Avada Kedavra is what's going to kill Voldemort.

I'm really glad Harry wasn't able to go through with the curse...that would mean that he's just a little too evil to be the nice guy! This makes him a more less-likely candidate for the "dark side..."

I was very suprised when he used it. I was very dissapointed when it didn't work. Grrr!

I agree. However, I do think that Neville certainly could have made that curse work on Bellatrix!

i gasped too but it didn'r bother me as bas as it did to i think.

Harry is growing up, it's natural for him to react strongly to something like sirus' death. In fact, he was probably over-reacting, if we're being honest. In a rational situation he never would have done that, but in the heat of the moment he did. It's a good job it didn't work, but it showed us that to use the Unforgiveable Curses you really do have to be quite evil!

Even if Harry did use the curses again, I don't think that they'd work. He has a pure heart - far too pure to be able to cause others pain or death. He loves a great deal, too much sometimes, and I do think hat will be what saves him and kills Voldemort in the end.

I was very suprised when he used it. I was very dissapointed when it didn't work. Grrr!

Exactally my thoughts, I was shocked. I think it was very fitting for the whole thing, though I do worry that it may come back to haunt Harry in the future, do I think he will use one of the curses again, yes, which one and when, I do not know, but I doubt that he will go on a cursing spree.

Maybe it's evil, but I really like to know how to put the Cruciatus Curse sometimes. And I was dissapointed when Harry couldn't do it.

Will Harry get in trouble for it? Or will they excuse it because of the circumstances? I dunno... I have a feeling he wont get in trouble for it this time... But if he does it again... Who knows.... He very may well get in trouble.

I'm not sure anyone knows. When underage wizards do magic in Muggle areas, the Minstry have some way to detect it, but I'm not sure they'd have such 'magic detecting' spells inside the Ministry. I think we can safely deduce that they don't monitor every spell adult wizards cast inside the Ministry, otherwise they'd have worked out that Lucius was A DE long before they did, as he was going around casting the Imperius Curse left right and centre all around the Ministry for months.


I was very suprised when he used it. I was very dissapointed when it didn't work. Grrr!

Don't be too disappointed. I'm fairly sure the Dark Lord gave Bella a fairly bad time for messing up, and he's much better at it than Harry could ever be.

Good point. I am sure myself that they couldn't tell who does a spell, just that it is performed in a particular locality. Take Dobby in CoS for example - the MoM didn't know it was Dobby that did the spell in Privet Drive, they assumed it was Harry. So even if the curse was detected there they'd assume it was Ballatrix that cast it, not Harry. Especially since they're all back on Harry's side again now.

Alcina--good theory. But Dumbledore believes, whenever possible, in full disclosure. With Sirius' death and name-clearing, Dumbledore will, most likely, tell Fudge everything pertinent about the last three years. That will give Fudge some confidence in Harry, but it will most likely send him into Chicken Little mode. He will learn that Harry fended off not just two but a hundred dementors with a single Patronus Charm, but, more importantly, that Harry expelled Voldemort after Voldemort tried to take possesion of him and that he took on Four DEs, besting three and battling Bella (probably the most powerful of them) to a draw. I don't think Fudge will be told the exact details of the prophecy, probably because he won't understand and partially because if he did he'd basically try to put Harry under house arrest for his own protection.

They know about location and time, and they infer from their knowledge of the location who did what. Also, please remember that that location is VERY closely watched.

Hermione__fan--Don't worry, Bella probably felt the full wrath of Voldemort, but not only that. If Harry had succeeded, he would have been corrupted and I think Voldemort might have been able to use Harry to kill Dumbledore. It would have been the same as if Sirius hadn't died.

there is precedent for harry getting off the hook when he's broken the law. remember how fudge was just like "let's not worry about that" to harry after the aunt marge incident in PoA? fudge might be back to thinking the rules don't apply to harry (as opposed to thinking the clearly stated legal exceptions don't apply to him...). who knows? maybe this will be addressed in book 6. i'm trying to remember, was AD in the atrium when he used it, or were there no witnesses?

RBT--Two problems comparing the two incidents.

1. The involuntary Inflation Charm was very minor.
2. Harry's life was in danger at the time (but not from the quarter everyone thought) so they were more concerned with keeping him ALIVE than strictly enforcing a bunch of stuffed-shirt rules.

I was stunned when Harry used the curse,but really relieved that it didn't work,even though I could understand where the emotion that drove him to use it was coming from.I mean,think of it:Sirius-the closest approximation to family Harry has-had just been killed-suddenly,pointlessly,just when Dumbledore had got there,just when Harry had allowed himself to think they were going to be all right,and the woman who'd done it was going to get away scot-free and was taunting him about Sirius: he just responded by using the worst thing he knew as an outlet for his anger and pain.Because that's what drove him to use the curse,though ultimately the reson why it didn't work was as Bellatrix said-he couldn't take pleasure from another person's pain,no matter how heartbroken or angry he ever got.I'm really glad the curse didn't work,though:it means Harry has too much humanity in him for that.

It didn't work for an extended period of time, but it did definitely work. Bella was knocked off her feet and cried out in pain. After she popped up the taunting baby-voice was gone and instead of belittling him...she started throwing her dark witch resume at him to try to intimidate him. HA. He's a lot more formidable than she thought. And the anger motivation without the pleasure in the suffering isn't supposed to be able to cause Cruciatus at all. It's a testament to how powerful Harry is that the curse worked anyway. Plus, he's 15, the curse shouldn't really have worked regardless. It shows that his power is almost to Riddle. Not a good thing for the DEs.

Go Harry!

Not that we want him to turn into Riddle, but it's not a bad thing to be a powerful wizard when you have to dfeat Voldemort at some point in the future...

I don't think that Harry will get in trouble because:
a)It didn't work, despite the intentions, there wasn't really any harm done.
and
b) Fudge probably has a lot on his plate at the moment and won't have time to press charges, also, does the ministry actually know? They should have some sort of thing to tell when those spells are used in the wizarding world, but would it cover the ministry also???

I'm quite sure the ministry doesn't, as I've said before.

"I am sure myself that they couldn't tell who does a spell, just that it is performed in a particular locality. Take Dobby in CoS for example - the MoM didn't know it was Dobby that did the spell in Privet Drive, they assumed it was Harry. So even if the curse was detected there they'd assume it was Ballatrix that cast it, not Harry. Especially since they're all back on Harry's side again now."

I have to admit, when I read that passage, I mentally screamed "nuh-uh!" and proceeded to read the passage again just in case I had read it wrong the first time. After reading the Book several times now, I have gotten over the initial shock from this, and have come to a few conclusions.
THink about it like this. You are a boy who has no parents. Your early life is definied by neglect, abuse, and downright bullying. You don't know who you are, you have confidence in yourself but you self esteem suffers. You have never truly known love, except at a time which you cannot recall. You are famous, you have a title and za reputation which precedes you, making it difficult for people to to get to know the trememndously wonderful person that you are. You have a knack for getting in trouble, even when you don't want to. You are strong willed, longsuffering, intelligent, noble and compassionate. Just when you think something poistive has happened in your life, your problems become augmented with every passing year. You are constantly on Voldie's hit list, along with other wizards. You lose and gain friends and foes, your life, in short, has been hell. Thrown into nasty situations, dealing with the truth or in many cases, only PARTS of the truth. A year particularly filled with frustration is capped off by the death of someone who was so dear to you, who added so much to your existence, that you are almost left in pieces. Think about Harrry's life. REALLY< REALLY< think about it. And then remember, after all the **** Harry has been through, in the DoM he was the angriest he HAD EVER BEEN IN HIS LIFE. The angriest he had ever been in his life. And what happened? Pretty much nothing! This is a person who is so compassionate and full of love that in his darkest moments, he didn't even want those who caused it to suffer. He cast that curse not wanting Bellatrix to suffer. If he had wanted her to, she would have. So what does this say about Harry? That he is one hell of a guy as far as I'm concerned. Also, I think it is a small foreshadow of Harry's difficulties of coming of age. He will have to stuggle with his own faults and demons. But most importatnly, I think all of this indicates that Harry won't turn evil or anything like that. Personally, I think Harry is great. he and Dumbledore. The scene in DD's office was incredible. Incredible. And if I were Dumbledoe, I would have cried to. The fact that Dumbledore's weak spot is love...ohhhh......god i love this series!

And unless Harry can use the same weapons Voldemort is going to use on him -at- Voldie, he has no chance.

Not true. Every time he's faced Voldemort, he's defeated him without using what Voldemort does. Heck, he used expelliarmus in GoF. I think that he -may- use AK (against Voldemort), but I can see JKR throwing a curveball at us like she has in every book.

We saw how HP hadn't fully achieved how to perform a perfect Cruciatus Curse and he seems to be a perfectionist so I think we will see him perform more of it. But I'm having doubts on HP chances of actually performing the spell perfectly because Bellatrix said that you need to be happy when your performing it, be happy that your making pain for the other person. HP doesn't seem like the type of person who enjoys pain or inflicting it.

_[Unicorn]']We saw how HP hadn't fully achieved how to perform a perfect Cruciatus Curse and he seems to be a perfectionist so I think we will see him perform more of it. But I'm having doubts on HP chances of actually performing the spell perfectly because Bellatrix said that you need to be happy when your performing it, be happy that your making pain for the other person. HP doesn't seem like the type of person who enjoys pain or inflicting it.
I agree. I think that this will be the crux of the final battle because Harry may find a spell that is like an anti-unforgivable curse like a patronus that does something by feeding off of pity not sadism.

In other words, he may consciously and fuly tap into what he used reflexively and imperfectly last time. I don't think Harry will practice Unforgivables because they're, well, Unforgivables.

I doubt we'll see any of the "good characters" using the Unforgiveable Curses. There's been much discussion about what the Order didn't use the Unforgiveables when they raided the Department of Mysteries; if these sorts of people aren't willing to use them in battle, I doubt whether Harry will.

Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse was a rash decision, I can't see him becoming a calculating wielder of the Unforgiveables, but maybe that's just me.

I agree. I don't think Harry could ever mean the unforgiveables enough to use them. He has too pure a heart.

Thoughts after re-reading the passage again:

Harry tried Crucio, not AK, because he clearly wanted to cause pain to the taunting Bellatrix. Hey, I can understand that. It was however a real shock to see our boy using something that could get him sent to Azkaban.

The curse definitely worked, in that it caused Bellatrix to scream out. Part of why it didn't have the full effect was, yes, that Harry didn't have enough hatred and cruelty to enjoy it, just a desire to punish. Good for him. However, another important reason was probably that it was the first time he'd actually tried it - the fact that it worked at all was surprising, as Harry usually seems to require several goes to get the hang of a new spell in class.

As to the topic of punishment, there are two separate questions here.

(1) Did anyone (except himself and Bellatrix) know he'd used the spell?

Probably not - the Ministry don't seem to track all spells, or all spells cast in the Ministry, or even all Unforgiveables. (Lucius Malfoy must have used Imperio in the Ministry, and when Umbridge was proposing to use Crucio on Harry, she said "What Cornelius doesn't know won't hurt him.") Even when they do track things (c.f. Harry's problems with the underage magic laws) they seem to need a tip-off, and can't tell who actually used the spell.

(2) Is the punishment for using an Unforgiveable Curse an automatic life sentence in Azkaban?

Well, the term "Unforgiveable" suggests so(!), but what the fake-Moody actually said was "The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban" (emphasis mine). Strictly speaking, this suggests that although a life sentence is the norm, extenuating circumstances might be taken into account. I don't think there's necessarily an exception for use in battle, especially for using Crucio.

Will Harry use them again? Maybe - probably not with enthusiasm

ok in my opnion Harry used the Cruciatus Curse cause maybe the knowledge of using the curse well came from Lord Voldemort and well what took it out of him was the death of Sirius but who can blame him Bellatrix killed the closest thing to a parent that he had yeah Lupin is also close to a father figure 4 Harry but Sirius had more of the traits James Potter had Adventure,Risks,Bravery and to his to his friends (Ron,Hermione,Neville etc.) They trust him with their lifes. So that triggered his anger to peform the curse :evil: so will he peform the Crauciatus Curse or maybe the other curses espically the worst of all Avada Kedavra

R.I.P SIRIUS BLACK A TRUE MARAUDER TILL THE END

I think that Harry would have to use the Avada Kedavra curse on Voldemort to defeat him at the end. In books six and seven they will probably teach him how to use those curses. It would be hard since they could not prastice it on another human being. They will probably prastice on spiders like Moody(Crouch) did or on rats.

I think that Harry would have to use the Avada Kedavra curse on Voldemort to defeat him at the end.

Not necessarily - if Voldy uses the same protection spells as he did last time, that would destroy his current body but not actually finish him off. How about forcing him through the Veil?

Not necessarily - if Voldy uses the same protection spells as he did last time, that would destroy his current body but not actually finish him off. How about forcing him through the Veil?


Ok 1 there is no chanche that Harry and Voldemort will have their last battle in the ministry of magic also Avada Kedavara is unbolckable there is no protection of it. If Harry uses it it might as well be over. What can Voldemort do to stop himself from dying if he get's hit with the Killing Curse.

I think the idea is that Voldemort can't be fully destroyed by the Avada Kedavra. If he could be then he would have been finished off when his own curse reflected off Harry, as that was an Avada Kedavra.

So by that reckoning, Harry must finally defeat Voldemort by some method other than Avada Kedevra.

I also don't see him using an unforgiveable again. He's not thick - I think he'll realise that if he couldn't get it to work when he was that angry over Sirius then he'll never be able to do it.

This is something I found really interesting, so I wanted to kind've re-open it for discussion.

Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse actually signifies something more to me than his anger. True, he tends to act on his emotions, and his anger was definitely shown when he used one of the unforgivable curses. But, this might be a sign of Harry's true colors. I hate using Star Wars comparisons, but Harry's actions remind me of Anakin Skywalker's actions after he found the people who had tortured his mother. He killed them in cold blood, and showed no mercy. I think that Harry is the same way. He doesn't show mercy (which is somewhat understandable), and JKR wanted to show his willingness to cause pain to those who pose a threat to what or who he loves. Call it self defense if you wish, but it still is an Unforgivable Curse.

I think the difference is Anakin didnt really have as close friends as Harry does and the loving community around him. Harry may have used an unforgiveable curse due to his rage but I believe he will learn to in the future control his anger and avoid having to use one of the unforgiveables.

He did use the curse - but as he didn't really mean to cause pain it didn't work out the way it was supposed to. This is what Bellatrix tells him.

There must be more to the Cruciatus Curse than simply hating your victim and really wanting to cause them pain. I very much doubt Crouch Jr. wanted to cause a spider pain when he used it during GoF; I mean, how can you really want to cause such a primitive thing pain? If you're disciplined enough, or trained well enough, I'm sure you'd be capable of casting any of the Unforgivable Curses without really feeling intense hatred.

There must be more to the Cruciatus Curse than simply hating your victim and really wanting to cause them pain. I very much doubt Crouch Jr. wanted to cause a spider pain when he used it during GoF; I mean, how can you really want to cause such a primitive thing pain? If you're disciplined enough, or trained well enough, I'm sure you'd be capable of casting any of the Unforgivable Curses without really feeling intense hatred.

Yeah, I think it needs a certain wand waving and exact pronouncing of the words too - otherwise it wouldn't be logical why the students have to practice so much. And Nevill's curses didn't work when he had this broken nose - I guess because it effected his speaking.

I agree that Harry will need some rehabilitation. I have lived through something similiar enough to what Harry goes through when he looses Sirius and at about the same age, too. Harry will need to find a helping hand somewhere.

You brought up a lot of good questions. Well done. :tu:

It is interesting of his choice of spells though to say the least. Why not kill him? After all she just killed your god-father! Again, I think that it is that noble blood he has. Yes, the same thing that made him let Wormtail be free. Someday, this generosity and kindness is going to kill him, but I for one am a firm believer that it will save him.

Also, about your question whether or not he'll lose his cool against the numerous possiblities...I'd say there is a fair chance. However touchy he was last year, he's going to be extremely fragile now. There are a huge amount of people that have a great chance of touching a nerve...especially considering he has so many of them now.

I think the only way he can possibly hold his temper within bounds this next year totally depends on how the outcome of his rehibilitation goes about. Whether or not he is calmed and brought back to life is crucial. If he isn't before he goes to school we may see some drastic measures from him. We just need to see what lupin and hermione can do to console him and face the fact that sirius is dead. As matter of fact, his whole life depends on how he comes out of this tragic demise....and it'll will be interesting to see which path he chooses.

Ok 1 there is no chanche that Harry and Voldemort will have their last battle in the ministry of magic also Avada Kedavara is unbolckable there is no protection of it. If Harry uses it it might as well be over. What can Voldemort do to stop himself from dying if he get's hit with the Killing Curse.


Ummm. This is not true. remember in the graveyard when they dueled? they both just connectd and then forced out victims of Voldermorts. This is interesting because all they have to do is send a spell and it locks together just like in GoF. How then will Harry beat Voldemort? who knows. I think jk has a suprise for us greater than any other. we shall see

I was astonished when Harry used the curse, but I think it was the only wa Harry could think of, causing the one person pain who has killed Sirius.
I can't imagine that Harry will kill Voldemort with avada kedavra, he's just too good a person. He might try a muggle way.

When Harry used the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix, my first reaction was that Harry was sinking to the Death Eaters' level. But I realize how angry and eager he was for revenge over Sirius' death, and this caused him to act without thinking. Even though it was wrong and he shouldn't have done it, I totally understand why he did.

On another note, I don't know if Harry will use Avada Kedavra on Voldemort. It seems too simple somehow. As for killing him using Muggle ways (such as shooting him), I'm not sure it would work. It would be a fitting end for Voldemort though, a sort of poetic justice, but just I don't think any Muggle means of killing him would work.

I think most of us will understand why he used the curse. His anger has built up through the book adn when someone he loved was killed there was just and explosion. I think he will be feeling terrible after using it and the next time that he has the feeling that he wants to use it he will remember how he felt after using the curse the first time and then pull away from doing so

Let's not forget how he sadistically had Hedwig peck at the hands of Hermione & Ron, and how he was glad to see the marks on their hands once he got to Grimmauld place. That whole scene with Harry & Hermione seemed Voldemort-like...she was practically cringing with fear, and he was striding around all displeased. I think Harry isn't as nice as he seems. I think he totally meant to cause Bellatrix excruciating pain, but did not have the power to do so his first time trying it--think of "Expecto Patronum." It took him a while to get the swing of that one, but he mastered it eventually.

I agree. I'm sure he had every intention of hurting Bellatrix to get back at her for what she did to Sirius, and with good reason. I think anyone would have felt the same way in Harry's position, having to confront the person who killed someone who he cared for deeply.

Spells can't just be about words and waves.
acomplished wizards may know more reliable ways.
A good example is the wizard with a babys head in Ootp. he cast a spell and it worked but just was not as powerful as it could have been as he could not speek.

also i can't recal Dumbledore ever using an actual (latin-ised) spell word or his wand.

i guess its like muggle school. One uses algebra in your teens to get the right result but its not till you understand more advanced maths (like integration) when you are older that you understand why. And that stuff you lernt so many years ago seems trivial.

I think most of Harry's attitude in OoP, especially in the beginning, is typical teenager stuff. As far as the Cruciatus Curse, I have to agree that is was most likely just a knee-jerk reaction to the death of Sirius, kind of like "You hurt me, so I'll hurt you!"

There is probably some key to Voldy's continued existence (maybe he was in to making jewelry?), and Harry will have to find/figure out/destroy whatever it is. I don't think Voldy can be killed by normal muggle means, though I'm sure whatever does finally do him in will probably be so simple he overlooks it or considers it beneath him to consider.

Harry's not really evil, he's just angry in a mis-understood teenager kind of way. He wasn't pleased to see his friends hurt - he cares very much about them. He was just venting his frustration. I don't think he'll ever be evil, not like Voldy, it's just the effects of growing up on a teenage lad. Don't be so hard on him, lol! ;)

Harry does have an awful temper at times and he has scared Ron and Hermione...for example...as he vented his anger toward the two of them when he was brought to Grimmault Place for the first time

Or when he began to destroy Dumbledoore's office at the end of OOTP

Though he has good reason to want to vent his anger and frustrations he is very capable of losing control completly

I think the fact that he did try to use the Cruciatus Curse says alot about him, too. I had a feeling this topic would creep up when the thread about whether or not Harry would rise above Dumbledore as the better wizard...

The fact that Harry would even think to use an Unforgivable on anyone is direct proof that he won't ever be as great a wizard as Dumbledore.

Harry's self-control leaves alot to be desired. I know - Harry's so young, he doesn't mean it, he was so messed up at the time - yadda yadda yadda. But can you imagine Dumbledore trying an Unforgivable on anyone, even when he was 15? No way.

We never know how DD was when he was 15. He is very mellow now but we have no idea what he was like when he was younger. 135 yrs is a long time to mature and learn how to control your emotions. Harry will learn for the future after his mistake.

Well, I think that his tremendous ability to Hate is something that will prevent him from ever rising to the top. The key to Dumbledore's greatness is his ability to avoid the temptations of hatred and see the big picture. In the end of OotP, Dumbledore didn't kill You-Know-Who, even though he had the perfect opportunity to. The same thing took place with all of the DEs. He just rounded them up and waited for the proper authorities to take over.

Harry needs to learn to be the same way. His explosions at Ron, Hermione, and Dumbledore (although understandable) as well as his attempted use of the Cruciatus Curse truly showed his tremendous ability to hate, and this characteristic might prevent him from ever defeating You-Know-Who, let alone surpassing Dumbeldore.

Harry might not have been pleased to see his friends hurt, but when he sees that they have been, here are his responses: "Oh yeah, sorry about that, but I wanted answers" (probably Tom Riddle/Voldemort would never say "sorry" but nevertheless would not feel remorse after inflicting pain to get answers) and, upon noticing Hermione's marks, "found that he was not at all sorry."

I know he'd had a rough year and whatnot, but it is fundamental in his character that he doesn't mind inflicting pain, be it on his closest friends or most dire enemies. I can't imagine Neville doing anything of the kind. I'm with Frankie Inkblot and Arthur Weasley here--and I'm not saying Harry is evil, but he is definitely no saint, and not just a misunderstood teenager either.

But that would lead me into my whole Harry Potter/Dale Cooper & Voldemort/Killer Bob paradigm and this just isn't the place for it! :cool:

I related this situation back to the Chamber of Secrets when Malfoy calls Hermione a mudblood Ron reacted with the first spell that came out the same thing happened between Sirius Bellatrix and Harry in the Ministry of Magic

I don't understand why it didn't work. He wanted real bad to cause her pain, but he didn't do it right?

Well, I think that his tremendous ability to Hate is something that will prevent him from ever rising to the top. The key to Dumbledore's greatness is his ability to avoid the temptations of hatred and see the big picture. In the end of OotP, Dumbledore didn't kill You-Know-Who, even though he had the perfect opportunity to. The same thing took place with all of the DEs. He just rounded them up and waited for the proper authorities to take over.

Harry needs to learn to be the same way. His explosions at Ron, Hermione, and Dumbledore (although understandable) as well as his attempted use of the Cruciatus Curse truly showed his tremendous ability to hate, and this characteristic might prevent him from ever defeating You-Know-Who, let alone surpassing Dumbeldore.

It depends how you define 'rising to the top'. Although LV is evil I would still call him one of the greatest wizards and he is full of hatred.

Harry might not have been pleased to see his friends hurt, but when he sees that they have been, here are his responses: "Oh yeah, sorry about that, but I wanted answers" (probably Tom Riddle/Voldemort would never say "sorry" but nevertheless would not feel remorse after inflicting pain to get answers) and, upon noticing Hermione's marks, "found that he was not at all sorry."

I know he'd had a rough year and whatnot, but it is fundamental in his character that he doesn't mind inflicting pain, be it on his closest friends or most dire enemies. I can't imagine Neville doing anything of the kind.

A bit harsh? I suspect many people, under enough stress, wouldn't care too much about friends getting a few scratches. It's a common enough psychological pattern, I'd have thought. If they'd had limbs ripped off or something, that would have been different.

And I can certainly imagine Neville doing something of the kind - I got the impression that if he could have got a good shot at Bellatrix Lestrange he'd probably have done a much better Cruciatus Curse than Harry did. Or alternatively just disembowelled her with his bare hands.

Well, I think that his tremendous ability to Hate is something that will prevent him from ever rising to the top. The key to Dumbledore's greatness is his ability to avoid the temptations of hatred and see the big picture. In the end of OotP, Dumbledore didn't kill You-Know-Who, even though he had the perfect opportunity to. The same thing took place with all of the DEs. He just rounded them up and waited for the proper authorities to take over.

Harry needs to learn to be the same way. His explosions at Ron, Hermione, and Dumbledore (although understandable) as well as his attempted use of the Cruciatus Curse truly showed his tremendous ability to hate, and this characteristic might prevent him from ever defeating You-Know-Who, let alone surpassing Dumbeldore.

Precisely what I was saying...the fact that he has it in him to hate and allow himself to act on those emotions is tough for me to ignore.

A bit harsh? I suspect many people, under enough stress, wouldn't care too much about friends getting a few scratches. It's a common enough psychological pattern, I'd have thought. If they'd had limbs ripped off or something, that would have been different.

But he ordered those scratches to be inflicted upon his friends. I don't think it is a matter of degree; some people, when hurt, lash out at others and always feel that they have been in the right to cause pain in order to alleviate their own. They don't feel remorse. They don't see why they should. I don't think Neville is that type of person.

EDIT: Oooh I just made a connection between Umbridge's detention & Harry's little vindictive moment. Both involving the infliction of pain on a hand, while writing.

But he ordered those scratches to be inflicted upon his friends. I don't think it is a matter of degree; some people, when hurt, lash out at others and always feel that they have been in the right to cause pain in order to alleviate their own. They don't feel remorse. They don't see why they should. I don't think Neville is that type of person.

Ordered? Not really, he just said to Hedwig (rough quote from memory) "take these to Ron and Hermione and don't come back without good long replies, keep pecking them until they've written them if you have to". It didn't sound like this was exactly meant as a torture instruction, and in fact Harry seemed surprised that Hedwig had taken it literally. And it is a matter of degree in two senses - (1) how much pain the person's in, and (2) how much they cause. If (1) is "a lot" and (2) is "not much" it doesn't necessarily show anything fundamental about their character, as much as it does about typical human reactions in general.

I agree that Harry isn't evil. I think the best evidence for this is Dumbeldore himself - he tells Harry in his office at the end of OoTP to let out his rage, to storm and shout and fling things about his room. He says it'll help him deal with it because he says that Harry cares . And if Dumbledore says that he cares, "so much that you think you'll die with it" (or something like that) then that says for me that Dumbledore believes Harry only to be a teenager being forced to deal with things that are too much for him.

I'm always for believing Dumbledore. "Great man, Dumbledore." :cool:

I think it is often overlooked that Harry may fly off the handle at times because of the way he was raised - maybe we should give him more credit for not being a total jerk all the time. He spends the most formative years of his life with the Dursleys, who give him a closet for a bedroom and treat him like trash, while expecting him to be grateful. He never had ANY affection from them at all. Add teenage hormones into the mix and I think he's doing quite well, considering.

That's a very good point. Any time Harry stepped out of line he got yelled at. I guess it's not such a strange thing for him.

Also, I think that Harry is probably very upset that the world in which he escaped from all the nastiness that he got at the Dursleys is turning into somewhere else he can suffer. I'd be pretty annoyed, if it were me!

I believe Harry using the Cruciatus Curse was important because he did not use it correctly. He did not want Bellatrix to suffer for no reason, like Bellatrix herself has done, It was more of a justice type thing. He wanted to stop her from hurting anyone else. He saw first hand Neivilles parents...and how it affected them. At the DoM he saw her try to torture Neiville and kill his godfather. It was justified why he wanted to do the curse, and that is why it did not work.

I've been wondering. In order to get the Cruciatus Curse to work you want to inflict pain to someone. Does that mean that you can't do a proper avada kedavra unless you really want that person to die and enjoy to watch the process?

If I'd have been in Harry's position I would have definatlely tried the cruciatus curse on Bellatrix, wouldn't you? And the same goes for the scratches on Ron and Hermione,it's only a few scratches to get some answers, it's not over the top. Why are some people saying he's evil because of it?

If I'd have been in Harry's position Im would have done the crucatus curse on Bellatrix, wouldn't you? And the same goes for the scratches on Ron and Hermione, it's only to get a few answers and it's not as if there in intense pain or anything, and why are some people saying they think Harry's evil because of it?

I think it is often overlooked that Harry may fly off the handle at times because of the way he was raised - maybe we should give him more credit for not being a total jerk all the time. He spends the most formative years of his life with the Dursleys, who give him a closet for a bedroom and treat him like trash, while expecting him to be grateful. He never had ANY affection from them at all. Add teenage hormones into the mix and I think he's doing quite well, considering.

Agreed! :D I think if most anyone were to be raised in such a combative environment, they would be an incredibly defensive person. And, going along with that, their threshold for harassment and abuse outside of that environment would probably be very low. Since he seems to have little control over what goes on with the Dursleys, I think he'd be rather keen to shut up anybody quickly, convince people he was not to be messed with, etc.

However, until a little bit in book 5, I think he's coped REALLY well with everything up until this point.

Originally Posted by AtomicGreymon
There must be more to the Cruciatus Curse than simply hating your victim and really wanting to cause them pain. I very much doubt Crouch Jr. wanted to cause a spider pain when he used it during GoF; I mean, how can you really want to cause such a primitive thing pain? If you're disciplined enough, or trained well enough, I'm sure you'd be capable of casting any of the Unforgivable Curses without really feeling intense hatred.

I agree that you could be disciplined enough to cast an unforgivable curse without really feeling intense hatred. But, how effective do you think your curse would be if deep down you are feeling what you are doing is wrong. Aside from utterring the correct words, it takes a certain amount of power on the part of the wizard to be able to cast such a spell.

I wasn't surprised that Harry tried Cruciatus on Bellatrix. What surprised me about Harry casting Cruciatus was that the curse actually worked on Bellatrix! (albeit it was just for a few seconds). Can you imagine how angry Harry must've been to be able to summon enough power to do that?

On my part, if I were in Harry's position I'd certainly lash out at someone I considered responsible for Sirius' death.

Well, I think that his tremendous ability to Hate is something that will prevent him from ever rising to the top. The key to Dumbledore's greatness is his ability to avoid the temptations of hatred and see the big picture. In the end of OotP, Dumbledore didn't kill You-Know-Who, even though he had the perfect opportunity to. The same thing took place with all of the DEs. He just rounded them up and waited for the proper authorities to take over.

Harry needs to learn to be the same way. His explosions at Ron, Hermione, and Dumbledore (although understandable) as well as his attempted use of the Cruciatus Curse truly showed his tremendous ability to hate, and this characteristic might prevent him from ever defeating You-Know-Who, let alone surpassing Dumbeldore.

Are you talking about Harry? Harry's tremendous ability to hate? I have to totally disagree with you. Harry cannot hate if his life depended on it.

What Harry was feeling when he cast Cruciatus was righteous anger not hate.

I wasn't too surprised that Harry used Crucio. He was angry and he was fighting Bellatrix. I think he thought he'd need to use it since it had been used on him and he didn't know when someone would come and save him from the fight. I don't think he'll use it again, not unless he's up against Voldemort or Death Eaters. As Bellatrix said, you need to mean it and Harry is too noble to mean it with anyone, except maybe Voldemort. I could see Harry wanting to bring pain to him.

the fact that harry lost the only father figure he ever knew, i am surprised he didnt try the avada kedavra curse, and i dont necassarily think it would have made him evil.. aurors are allowed to use the unforgivable curses to fight the DEs and they aren't evil for doing so.

Well i was a little suprized when harry used the crutaitious curse on bellatrix lestrange
but i think that he will use one or some of the unforgiveable curses in the future.

I've thought abot this a lot since last June. I'm still really surprised, and frankly, disgusted with Harry. "Cruciatus" isn't a merciful execution--it's torture. I hope this is part of Jo's plan to show us Harry's moral development. I hope Book 6 sees him really having to wrestle with finding such an evil intention in himself, and coming to grips with his own shadow side. I'll be quite disappointed if this isn't an important focus of the early chapters.

Why was everyone unhappy that he used the Crucio curse? The ***** deserved it. She just killed one of his best friends.

About Harry going to Azkaban, they would of probably of saw it. They saw Harry doing Expecto against the Dementors. Why didn't they see the Crucio curse? I think the MoM thought that it was for a good cause, since it was against a Death Eater.

I dunno though......

Why was everyone unhappy that he used the Crucio curse? The ***** deserved it. She just killed one of his best friends.
Because in civilization we agree to rules about how we kill each other. Torture is generally concidered to be bad manners, if not morally reprehensible, even if the target of one's anger has done something that arouses strong emotion.

Yes, it's true that the Cruciatus Curse is torture, but at the time when Harry tried to use it, he had just lost his surrogate father and best friend, Sirius, to a woman who was not only related to Sirius, but who also tortured the parent's of Harry's good friend into madness.
It is understandable that he would feel so much anger toward Bellatrix Lestrange at that time that he would want to cause her the same horrible pain as a form of poetic justice.
But we really shouldnt focus on the fact that he tried to use an Unforgiveable Curse, considering the circumstances, but focus on the fact that the curse didnt work. He simply does not possess the hatred and the want to cause such physical pain to a person that is necessary to perform the Cruciatus Curse.
I dont think that his actions toward Bellatrix immediately after Sirius's death should sway our feelings toward Harry. He was feeling an anger and sadness that many of us cant even imagine.

About Harry going to Azkaban, they would of probably of saw it. They saw Harry doing Expecto against the Dementors. Why didn't they see the Crucio curse? I think the MoM thought that it was for a good cause, since it was against a Death Eater.

Nope, when Harry cast the curse it was just him and Lestrange - check the book. No-one else saw it because Harry left them all behind once he got to the revolving room with the many doors. In other words, JKR set it up carefully so that Harry isn't going to get prosecuted for it.

Harry using Cruciatus was genuinely jaw-dropping, and it's surely going to be a major point in Book 6. It will be interesting to see what reactions it gets if he tells Ron and Hermione - I would expect Ron to be initially shocked and scared then OK with it, but Hermione to see a bit further and realise its dangers to Harry (both legal and moral).

It does seem though that even with all that hatred, he didn't have enough of it to do the curse properly, at least if we can believe Bellatrix Lestrange's explanation of how it works (and she should know), which is obviously a point in his favour.

Harry has yet to tell ron and hermione exactly everything that's happened. i wonder what they would react to any of it, but now that i've read this discussion im more curious about the cruciatus curse than most anything else.

I don't think we need to be concerned about Harry's use of the Cruciatus Curse. First of all, it was, as others have said, done in a moment of extreme and righteous anger on a woman who certainly had no qualms about putting the curse on others. It was not a conscious decision that this is acceptable behavior. On a subconscious level, I think Harry had to do an Unforgivable curse to prove his love for Sirius. Bellatrix had just taunted him with this concept - "did you love him, little baby Potter?" The irony of this statement is that Bellatrix has just articulated what Harry and Sirius never did. Neither of them ever told the other exactly how important he was to him, and now they never will. Confronted with the uncertainty of his relationship to Sirius (even Dumbeldore can define it in no more certain terms as "something between a father and a brother), Harry needs to do something drastic to negate the implications of her words. If he had just responded with the kind of spell he would use to respond to a taunt from Draco Malfoy, it would somehow seem to cheapen his grief, and, by extension, his whole relationship with Sirius. By doing what he would never ordinarily do, indeed, something "unforgiveable", Harry seals his love for Sirius as something that transcends other ties and standards of behavior.
Now that my Literature geek mode is over, I can add that Harry obviously knows, by the scene in Dumbeldore's office, that he cannot use these curses. He says that he can't torture or kill people. This scene proves Harry's essential decency in not being able to cast the curse, not a descent into darkness. To say that Harry, an overwhelmingly moral person, has committed an irretreviable sin in his casting of the Crutiatus curse on Bellatrix denies the complexity of his character.

Harry must really have been frustrated and full of hate to even dare to try to use the curse, especially since his common sense would have warned him the consequences of using it successfully. Obviously, Harry wasn't thinking when he tried to use it, and I'm confident that if he saw Bellatrix writhing and twisting on the floor in pain, he'd quickly get over his intense hatred for just a few seconds and realize what a horrible thing he had done by sinking to her scummy level. Harry certainly needs to master his emotions, as JKR mentioned in one of her interviews, so this insertion into the book was a great way of showing us just how desperate Harry is sometimes. He's not the perfect hero type, ready to save the world with little thought about himself, Harry is a person, and as such, he is allocated mistakes to make.

I was upset when the curse didn't work. It only hurt her for a second. It was quite dissapointing to see it not work. I think he will use it again, and the same thing will happen b/c he is not an evil person.

Obviously, Harry wasn't thinking when he tried to use it, and I'm confident that if he saw Bellatrix writhing and twisting on the floor in pain, he'd quickly get over his intense hatred for just a few seconds and realize what a horrible thing he had done by sinking to her scummy level.

I think you're absolutely right. Had Harry been able to cast the Cruciatus successfully, he would have been shocked to see the consequences. The fact that Harry couldn't perform the curse correctly leads me to believe that deep down in his heart, Harry was unable to endure/enjoy watching someone suffer the horrendous pain that the Cruciatus Curse would cause.

I don't think that it was all that bad that harry used the curse... he was lashing out and he most likely wasn't thinking, except to cause pain to the woman who had just killed his godfather and very good friend. I think that it shows that he cares about those that he loves...

Despite the fact that Harry didn't succeed in cursing Bellatrix, and even though Harry was so mad he wanted to see her suffer, I don't think we should forget that the Unforgivables are illegal. In GoF "Moody" says "The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentance in Azkaban." (p217 US version) (and although he isn't the real Moody, I don't see any reason for him to lie). Therefore, it's a pretty serious thing to attempt to use an Unforgivable.

Someone made a very good point about the importance of Harry using the Cruciatus Curse not being the fact that he used it, but that fact that he didn't do it properly. Add to this what Bellatrix said about "Righteous Anger won't hurt me for long" and I think it speaks volumes about the differences between the honourable and righteous Harry and the evil of Voldemort.

I had thought that Harry would have to use an Unforgivable to kill Voldemort but now I'm not so sure.

His inability to perform the Cruciatus curse possibly stems from having never been trained to use it and never been told how to do it properly so I think that for him to simply say the words and for an appreciable effect to have occured such as it did, demonstrates something quite remarkable in terms of his power as a Wizard. In GoF the fake Moody demonstrates the Unforgivables then proceeds to tell the class that they could all point their wands at him and Say "Avada Kedavra" and it is unlikely that he would suffer anything worse than a nosebleed indicating that a significant amount of power and energy must be used by a Witch or Wizard to perform an Unforgivable which brings me back around to Harry simply pointing his wand at Bellatrix and saying the words without any prior training or experience and the spell actually working.
Then I got to thinking about all the other Examples of Harry showing an unusual level of power with the one that is first and foremost in my mind at the moment being the Patronus. Hermione tells Harry that only a really powerful wizard would have been able to conjour a Patronus strong enough to drive away all those Dementors and everyone is really amazed that his Patronus is Corporeal which is apparently really significant. Remember that Harry was only 13 when he conjoured that Patronus, that is a hell of a feat for a barely-trained thirteen-year-old. I suppose it is the equivalent of a Thirteen year old solving Fermats last theorum with only Primary school and Secondary Comprehensive mathematics training.

It's a pretty serious thing to attempt to use an Unforgivable.I know, I was shocked when I read it, although in the grand scheme of things, Harry Potter using an Unforgivable curse against a known and convicted torturer, murderer and Death Eater is probably, at the end of the day, forgivable after all.

Veq.

I know, I was shocked when I read it, although in the grand scheme of things, Harry Potter using an Unforgivable curse against a known and convicted torturer, murderer and Death Eater is probably, at the end of the day, forgivable after all.

Veq.

hahaha... I agree

Nope, when Harry cast the curse it was just him and Lestrange - check the book. No-one else saw it because Harry left them all behind once he got to the revolving room with the many doors. In other words, JKR set it up carefully so that Harry isn't going to get prosecuted for it.


Then how did the see him do Expecto? The only other person around was Dudley when he did it.

The thing is... no one saw him, whenever an underage wizard does magic around muggles it is detected at the MoM... but he wasn't around muggles so I don't think that they could have detected it...

it did surprise m te that harry would thing of using "crucio" but if i saw the person that killed Padfoot, i would do the same... and it shows that he didnt really have more than anger because it didnt really hurt beatrix

Then how did the see him do Expecto? The only other person around was Dudley when he did it.
That ties in to the whole question of how the hell the MoM could tell, to which there appear to be two answers.

One, they can tell that magic was done, at least in a Muggle area, but not who did it - so e.g. Dobby's spell got Harry into trouble in CoS. In OotP, even if they could detect that someone cast an Unforgiveable, they'd probably have assumed that it was the Death Eater present who cast it (and Harry was whisked out of there by Dumbledore before they could try Priori Incantantem on his wand).

Two, Harry was being actively set up by Umbridge at the start of OotP, so it's reasonable to assume that whatever detecting methods they had had been beefed up for the occasion.

Harry has proven many times in the past that he doesn't really care about breaking rules and even laws if the laws are unjust or immoral. If he felt no moral qualms about casting the curse, the illegality of it wouldn't faze him. That being said, I don't think Harry was thinking entirely lucidly about the consequences of his actions at that moment.
Also, I don't think we are giving Harry enough credit for the power of the curse. True, it did not work. However, it certainly had some, albeit minor and brief, effect on Bellatrix (I think she screamed, at least?). According to fake Moody, if an entire class said "avada kedavra" and pointed their wands at him, he wouldn't have even gotten a nosebleed. So I think the fact that Harry alone could, without any training in dark magic and pretty poor training in even defensive magic (what with umbridge, lockhart, and quirrell), even come close to harming Bellatrix is fairly impressive.

I think to perform the curse, you need a certain education on learning it.

Expecto Patronum works much like the Unforgivables. You need a strong core emotion to propel the spells. I think later on in the books, more spells will be directed with emotions.

The first time Harry performed the Patronus charm, he couldn't produce more than a silvery wisp. Just like in the Department of Mysteries he only dropped Lestrange to the floor.

At the scene with the Dementors by the lake, Harry performed the Patronus because he knew he could do it This was his first time producing the Cruciatus Curse and he only observed it, not performed it. It is not a question of power, but experience.

Also, Voldemort is gaining power rapidly. When the curse rebounded on him, he did not die, only became weak. That's why Avada Kedavra will not work unless he performs it twice. It is probably a very power consuming spell and once will probably exhaust Harry.

Concerning the Ministry of Magic...

Some areas of the wizarding world are probably exempt from the Underage Wizardry laws. Every time somebody uses a spell at Hogwarts or St. Mungo's, you don't see a squad of Ministry Hit Wizards appear on the spot. The same probably applies to the ministry and wizarding households.

Cheers,

Angel Spirit

One thing I've wondered, why did Harry try to cause Bellatrix pain, instead of trying to kill her? True, he did an unforgiveable curse, but he didn't try to murder her. In the same position, would Neville have only tried to hurt her like she hurt his parents, or would he have killed her?

he got caught up in the heat of the moment. the worst think he could think of at that moment was absolute pain. death is even easier than that...perhaps.

Nah, I don't think Neville would have tried to perform any of the unforgivable curses on Bellatrix. He is not that type of person, and is also not capable of doing that type of magic. He has trouble with the simplest spells, so if he even tried to perform one of those curses I don't think it would work.

Harry wanted Bellatrix to feel all the pain that he was feeling, and using avada kedavra on her would be quick and more than likely painless. He wanted to make her suffer for what she did to Sirius. So the ultimate pain curse was what popped into his head.

Wasn't Neville the first one to get his patronus down in the DA? (sory if i'm wrong, I haven't read OotP in a while) So if he does suddenly become alot better at magic, certain ideas that he never beleived he could do might creep into his head; such as getting revenge for his parents. As of right now he's not that type of person, but people change and now that he's seen DEs in person, it might just push him over the nice guy edge.

Neville does improve greatly in DADA after the DE's escape from Azkaban. And there was the time Malfoy insulted people in St. Mungo's and Harry and Ron had to hold him back from hitting Malfoy. Also, in SS, Neville takes on Crabbe and Goyle during the Quidditch match Snape refs. I definately think Neville "has it in him." But this doesn't make him evil, just like using the Cruciatus Curse doesn't make Harry evil. Just a kid in lots of pain who wants to strike back.

Exactly, knitnpurl, Neville isn't evil nor do I think he will ever be, but I do think that his encounter with the DEs has changed him. The Neville before that, as we know him, would probably never even consider using an unforgivable curse; the Neville post-DoM will want to strike back.

I think Harry will be very tempted to use an unforgivable curse again, and that he will decide not to use it. At which point Voldemort will think he has beaten Harry, but will be sorely wrong...

I was AMAZED when I saw what harry did. that was soo cool besides she deserved it, I'll bet she'll think twice before mocking and portraying harry as a baby. :)
I am sure he will use the unforgiveble curses again. he has to

If Harry thinks about using an Unforgiveable Curse but chooses not to, that is the point at which Harry has won for good. :) Yayness.

Harry might want to use the Avada Kedavra curse to kill Voldemort. The cruciotus curse might have been practise for him to kill Voldemort. It's a pity Harry's gonna die. Even Dan agrees. Harry might even try and practise Imperius and try it on Voldemort. Hehehe. Imagine that.

So it's okay to torture someone who's angered you or hurt you?

It's a pity Harry's gonna die. Even Dan agrees.

Well, no-one realy knows whether Harry's going to die or not, only JK knows that. And just because Dan said he thinks Harry is gonna die, doesn't mean it's going to happen; he was just speculating.

If you're interested in the long and cyclical discussion on whether or not Harry will die at the end of book seven, go to this thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=12165) to read all about it...


house elf 13: So it's okay to torture someone who's angered you or hurt you?

No, I wouldn't say so. I guess there's the arguement that the means justifies the end, but I don't think that torture or putting others under your control is acceptable - that's why they're "unforgiveable curses", as in the people doing them shouldn't be forgiven.

Since Harry didn't succeed in doing it, I'll let him off just this once... ;)

I think that that curse is going to be counted against him. Besides, he'll use another Unforgivable Curse in the future right? The ASvada Kedavra... tho kill Voldemort.

Not necessarily. I know the Prophecy states that Harry will have to kill Voldemort, and I'm also quite certain that he will succeed in this, somehow, but whether he uses Avada Kedavra to do so is another question. Using the AK just seems a little too simple and easy a way to get rid of Voldemort for good.

I find it interesting that although Harry didn't succeed in casting the Cruciatus, he managed to force quite a strong reaction from Bellatrix while attempting to do so. For someone who'd never performed any kind of Dark Arts before, let alone tried an Unforgivable, Harry displayed remarkable prowess at it. I wonder whether he's more proficient at the Dark Arts than we - and he himself - know. Another little talent that he shares with Voldemort, perhaps?

Not necessarily. I know the Prophecy states that Harry will have to kill Voldemort,
Actually, it doesn't--it says that one of them just die for the other to go on living. It doesn't say how the dying takes place.

Personally, I'm in favor of Voldemort doing a self-destruct.

Actually, it doesn't--it says that one of them just die for the other to go on living. It doesn't say how the dying takes place.
True, it doesn't state it outright, but it's very much implied. 'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord' along with 'Either must die at the hand of the other' does seem to point to either Harry or Voldemort being killed by the other. Dumbledore even says so himself - but then, we know that Dumbledore can't always be trusted. :p

In the end, I hope Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort, but I hope he uses something other than the Avada Kedavra to do so.

Maybe this is a bit off-topic, but I don't necessarily see these curses as especially "unforgiveable." I mean, suppose, instead of the scene in the pensieve we witnessed, James Potter had cornered Snape alone by the lake, put the Imperius on him, and made him jump into the water. I would consider that more forgiveable than the public humiliation he subjected him to. Same with Avada Kedavra. Clearly, there are other ways of killing people. Why is Avada Kedavra more brutal than any other way - actually, it seems painless to me. If AK is unforgiveable, why isn't every method of killing unforgiveable?

Ooh, good question, seeker. I'm guessing that Avada Kedavra is the only actual curse for death, although there may be killing potions, etc...(which are more than likely outlawed as well) It may be true that what James did to Snape was more humiliating than being put under Imperius, but how do we know that? The reason the curses are "unforgivable" is simply because they are the most deadly and dangerous curses known to the ministry. It's like or own law enforcement system - homicide is punishable by execution or life sentence and is considered, by most people, as the worst crime. So is the same for the wizarding world.

Maybe this is a bit off-topic, but I don't necessarily see these curses as especially "unforgiveable." I mean, suppose, instead of the scene in the pensieve we witnessed, James Potter had cornered Snape alone by the lake, put the Imperius on him, and made him jump into the water. I would consider that more forgiveable than the public humiliation he subjected him to. Same with Avada Kedavra. Clearly, there are other ways of killing people. Why is Avada Kedavra more brutal than any other way - actually, it seems painless to me. If AK is unforgiveable, why isn't every method of killing unforgiveable?

The Imperius Curse is unforgivable because it takes away one's free will- something everyone is entitled to. The Cruciatus Curse is a horrible method of torturing another human being, which IMHO is pretty unforgivable. As for Avada Kedavra, if this spell is the only one that is specifically designed to kill another person, that also is unforgivable. If not, then you make a valid point that every method of killing should be unforgivable.

i think jk had to show how mad he was at bellatirx for killing sirius so the only way of showing it was by trying to torture her

The Imperius Curse is unforgivable because it takes away one's free will- something everyone is entitled to. The Cruciatus Curse is a horrible method of torturing another human being, which IMHO is pretty unforgivable. As for Avada Kedavra, if this spell is the only one that is specifically designed to kill another person, that also is unforgivable. If not, then you make a valid point that every method of killing should be unforgivable.
Plus, with Avada Kedavra there is no defence. You just have to sit there and take it. There is no defence, you cant block it. No fancy spell or wand movement does anything. You get out of the way or die. With other spells you (apparently ) can defend yourself.

I think Harry's going to go through his own dark time, not so much because he is evil but because he is so righteously angry and grief-stricken. He does have a strain of Voldemort in him, which in some ways has lent him strength for good (resourcefulness, ambition, and, um, freeing the zoo snake). I think he may be tempted to use evil means to find a way to a good end. And he may not even perceive it as dark wizardry (altho Hermione probably will see it). His anger in OOTP, his mixed effort with occlumency, and the curse on Bellatrix might be the first steps that could lead to some inadvertent betrayal of a friend (maybe like with Sirius?) or the cause. Does this make sense? I just think Harry will travel a dark path for a while and then end up in the light (which doesn't mean a happy ending for him).

I think harry is going through a very rough time in his life. He is probably very frustrated with people and their garbage an just wants to scream. I think he was so mad at her, and he is probably going to realize this soon, he can't control his anger. soon i think he'll put it all into that one spell if he ever has to use it again.he is very strong when it comes to curses. He fought off the imperious in his first few trys, he'll probably use an unforgivable again, though. I kind of agree with Quillpen, too.

I have a quick question that sorta falls under this thread. Do you think he will tell Ron and Hermonine that he tried the Cruciatus Curse and that what will their reaction be beside total shock?

As far Harry using the Curse I think he was lost in his anger and grief to truely relise the possible consiquences (misspelled probably) of what he was doing. Or maybe he did know and figured no one would care if he drove her insane she was a DE and escaped prisoner. However it whould confirm to world he is dangerous and use the Dark Arts. Will he use an unforgivable curse again, probably not unless he loses someone really close to him again.

maybe it's only unforgivable if you cast the curse correctly... Harry didn't cast the curse right, cause he didn't really know how to do that, so maybe then it doesn't really count.

Plus, with Avada Kedavra there is no defence. You just have to sit there and take it. There is no defence, you cant block it. No fancy spell or wand movement does anything. You get out of the way or die. With other spells you (apparently ) can defend yourself.

Although JK does seem to be inventing new ways for Harry to get out of dying when Voldemort casts AK on him...first Lily, then the fact that their wands can't duel...

Shauna

well, were talking about belatrix, and harry knows she torcherd nevills parents into insanity and killed serius. He was just giving her a taste of her own medicine.

i can't believe all the people ' i was shocked'...we know harry! he wanted to kill sirius at the tender age of 13 (lol) and at that point he didnt know any magical means to do it.... at 15 and losing a parent/brother figure, would you cause someone pain or....put them in a full-body bind or make them drop their wand?

at 15 and losing a parent/brother figure, would you cause someone pain or....put them in a full-body bind or make them drop their wand?
Most people would fantasize about causing someone pain. However, the vast majority of people do not act on the fantasy of torturing someone to death even when they have the opportunity to do so. Studies following up on Milgram's obedience studies showed that unless a person with power and authority is right beside you, urging you on, and unless you can't see the person being harmed, you are unlikely to agree to cause pain to the point of death.

We may sympathize with Harry's outrage and hurt, but I still maintain that his use of an unforgivable curse is just that--unforgivable. It may be understandable, but is no more excusable than if anyone on this forum were to torture someone to death.

I think that Harry's use of this curse may bar him from some later happiness or redemption, if Jo continues to rely on mythological and literary archetypes.

Hmm. Let's not get too hung up on the "unforgiveable" - the curses aren't unforgiveable merely because JKR's wizarding world characters choose to use that word to describe them.

Would you consider equivalent actions "unforgiveable"? Suppose a HP character tortured someone with thumbscrews or knives or Transfiguration? Or affected their minds with Veritaserum (Dumbledore!) or for that matter a Love Potion? Or killed in some other way?

The circumstances surrounding the action should be taken into account if you're planning to make a moral judgement rather than a legal one. Harry's action seems
forgiveable to me. Not OK by a long way, but forgiveable.

Paradoxically I think Harry using 'cruciatus' is a sign of his essential goodness. If I had watched someone kill someone as close as me as Sirius is to Harry I'd have wanted to use the killing curse. Harry didn't. Yes he was angry and he lashed out with 'cruciatus' but he didn't try to kill her even though she deserved it. I think that Harry probably won't kill Voldemort either but there will be a situation where Voldemort in effect kills himself

Im sure anyone would want to cause someone pain if their last father figure was gone. It makes sense and I for one would have tried to cause her pain, aswell.

His last father figure isn't gone; Dumbledore and Lupin, for example, are still alive. I entirely buy the idea of wanting to cause pain--but I must continue to assert that most people don't act on this even under these circumstances.

I see no great problem. Bella would deserve it. She killled his god father, her own cousin! An Avada Kedavra wouldn't be enough for her. She deserved pain. And Harry wanted her to feel the pain he was feeling because of Sirius. I was pretty happy when he tried to do that with her. Anyway, someone like Ballatrix Lestrange does not deserve pitty or mercy. At least in my opinion.

Well, Harry is really noble. He lost control and used the cruciatus curse because Sirius had just died. Unless something happens to make him that upset agian, he is above putting himself on that level.

if i was him, id be too scared to try something like that. i dont think hes crazy, though. im still surprised nothing happened to him..yet.

People will probably hate me for this but I loved Harry using Crucio! I would have done the exact same thing! Actually I'd probbybly do something a lot worse and I'm not talking about the Avada (death by Avada is just to clean and painless)!



Unless something happens to make him that upset agian, he is above putting himself on that level.
rock_ally this is a war, there is going to a lot more events to make Harry that upset!

Exactly. AK is just too kind for Voldemort or Bellatrix. They deserve something worse. Much worse. Harry using Cruciatus really didn't bother me. But I have to read it againd. Why did I borrow my book. Arrg, they never give me it back.

Like what? Subjecting them to a whole week of Teletubbies re-runs? ;)

When Harry used the Cruciatus Curse he was obviously very mad/upset because Sirius, his father figure, had just died. I'm sure Harry will use it again because it is very likely that another person close to him will die in the last 2 books.

I think that if Harry tells Ron and Hermione he'll lose one of them, most likely Ron. He will probably be jealous that Harry can get away with anything. I think J.K. calls them the Unforgivables for a reason, maybe as foreshadowing.

Possibley, Ron is quite jealous. But even so, I don't think he could completely lose his best friend over just that. It'd have to be coupled with other things too I reckon. And I still reckon that they'd end up back friends again after, when somebody points out to Ron that whilst Ron still has his entire family (save maybe Percy) Harry has lost everyone - his parents and Sirius. And now he has the burden to carry of having to be the one to vanquish Voldy for good else everyone is doomed. I think maybe Ron would forgive and forget then.

I never expected that from Harry and everyone is saying that the understand how he did it, but I dont. I mean after the lesson he got from "Moody" i didnt think he would ever use those curses and after seeing the Longbottoms at Christmas there was never a thought in my mind one of those kids would perform those curses...so when he did i8 was really surprised. i think now since he used it once he has a likely chance to use it again and i wouldnt be surprised...he has enough anger in him now...

I had previously thought, before this book, that Harry was "above" using the illegal curses. He, Ron and Hermione always seemed to use cleverness and their combined knowledges and talents to defeat obsticles and enemies. I think this was a major turning point (or at least an illustration of such) in Harry's personality. It let us know Harry was just as vulnerable to being overcome with emotions like anyone else. We've seen Harry passionate about things, but I feel that we've never seen him act almost without thinking based on it.

While I was disappointed in him for it, I'm sure it is necessary to the plot later on.

I think he may kill bellatrix, prolly voldemort.

I wasn't that surpised when he used the curse. He had all this anger building up in him all book. Then Sirius died, I expected him to act strongly. I don't think that he would use that curse again. After all he only had rightous anger to fuel the curse not actual hate, and cruelty. But I could see him using the killing curse to off Voldermort. Just my oppions. :)

Personally I am curious if the ministry can trace back to him using one that night, and if he'll get in trouble for it....Hopefully he'll have learned his lesson about using it...

At first I thought no, this won't be the last time we see Harry use an unforgivable curse.
(Sorry, couldn't be bothered to read all the later posts)
But thinking over it, it may well be.

Harry's learning what he's going to be up against in future, so fights with Death Eaters may be common for him in future. I don't think Avada Kedavra will be used to kill off Voldemort and I can't see Harry being as angry as he was in OotP. He's got the ministry behind him now and also knows everything about his past and link with Voldemort thanks to Dumbledore.

So maybe is my long-winded answer!! Ha-ha! :D

Shouldn't Harry be expelled for this? I mean if there are ways to know which magic is used in Muggle territory, shouldn't the MoM know when an unforgivable curse is used?

I'm sorry... but that... was power! Good going Hair! *pats harry on the back*

I don't think it is weather the magic is light or dark that matters it is how you use it and bellatrix really deserved it.

I was surprised when Harry used (well, tried to use) the Cruciatus Curse. I wasn't surprised that he was furious with Bellatrix - it's just that, he knows what it feels like. That's what made me surprised. Maybe this will play a role in the future? What if Harry thinks of the Cruciatus Curse again? When he's mad at Malfoy - for instance.... Hmm...

Harry won't use Avada Kedavra to kill Voldemort, because he's survived that once already. The others aren't really useful to him, so I don't think Harry would use any of the Unforgivables again. Just doesn't seem like him. I reckon the only reason he used it this time was heat-of-the-moment, and since I also reckon that he's going to learn to control his temper more in book six and seven (lets face it; he's going to have to!) then I reckon he won't do it again. Logic says he couldn't, so I don't think he'll try.

I don't understand why so many people seem to think that Harry's cruciatus curse didn't work. It worked exactly the way it was supposed to. The reason it wasn't more effective is because Harry cast the curse and essentially lifted it after only a second. Even the most excruciating pain imaginable will not stop someone for long if they only feel it for a second, after which it is gone without a trace!

By using the Cruciatus Curse Harry has sunk to the very level of the Death Eaters. He just acted on his particular emotions at that time. That's what the Death Eaters do they act on their feelings of hate and anger. That's whast Harry did too. He hated Bellatrix Lestrange and was angry because she killed Sirius.

What automatically gives Harry a pass to use unforgivables because he's upset. Harry is constantly assuming that he has some sort of special rights because his parents were killed by Voldemort. Well Neville's parents were tortured into insantiy but you don't see him running areound like an idiot thinking he is the one who always has to save the day.

There are many examples of Harry thinking he is the one who needs to do something that really isn't his place. In SS he thinks that he needs to get the stone even when it isn't his place. It's not like Quirrel had any chance of getting it from the mirror. By going through the trap door Harry endangered the stone far more than ever before because instead of being protected by Dumbledore's brilliant charm it's just lieing in his pocket. Even if Quirrel had been able to get it DUmbledore could have gotten back in time.

In PoA Harry wants to kill Sirius and try's to. Harry at thirteen has demenstrated that he would kill someone. In OotP Harry goes even further and does kill Sirius be being an idiot and going after him. On top of this he endangers not only Neville, Luna, Ginny, Hermione, and Ron but the OotP as well.

Harry is obviosly not as grand a hero as thought.

I think Harry's reaction was natural and normal... I would probably do the same if I was in the same situation...

What if this leads to Harry getting prosecuted for using the Cruciatus and sent to Azkaban? JKR has said that she wouldn't want to be Harry because she knows how very much misery he'll be put through - Azkaban prison would certainly be great misery, even with the dementors gone (Sorry if this has been discussed, but the search thread tool was giving me results from the entire forum and I don't have time to read this entire thread).

I'm sure that, now that Fudge has *finally* come to his senses, an exception would be made. Remembering what Harry went through on the night in question- plus the fact that his curse merely knocked Bellatrix off her feet, rather than torturing her.

In PoA Harry wants to kill Sirius and try's to. Harry at thirteen has demenstrated that he would kill someone. In OotP Harry goes even further and does kill Sirius be being an idiot and going after him. On top of this he endangers not only Neville, Luna, Ginny, Hermione, and Ron but the OotP as well.

Harry is obviosly not as grand a hero as thought.
In OoTP Harry doesn't want Neville, Luna or Ginney to go with him they went because they wanted to. It was wrong of him to go after Sirius, but he thought there wasn't anything to do except go to the MoM since he thought there wasn't any one from the order at Hogwars and it isn't like Harry to just sit there and do nothing. I don't think anyone could just sit there while thinking that someone they know is in danger.

I agree with Hermione - Harry has a 'saving people thing'. Though that's part of what makes him a Gryffindor.

And I don't agree that Harry is always taking things upon himself tht he shouldn't - Dumbledore certainly implies that he's proud of Harry for all that he's achieved. Harry will have to be the one to defeat Voldemort in the end, not Neville, not anyone else. He's learning how to deal with him, and learning how to deal with being a hero too. He's not even sixteen yet - give the lad a break! He's doing the best he can, I imagine most teenage lads would act similarly in those circumctances.

By using the Cruciatus Curse Harry has sunk to the very level of the Death Eaters. He just acted on his particular emotions at that time. That's what the Death Eaters do they act on their feelings of hate and anger. That's whast Harry did too. He hated Bellatrix Lestrange and was angry because she killed Sirius.
I don't think Harry has sunk to the Death Eaters' level. As Bellatrix clearly said about the Unforgivable Curses in Book 5, "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it — righteous anger won't hurt me for long "...
Death Eaters use them for the mere pleasure of it. Harry used it out of anger. That's quite a different thing.
Anyway, I have a question about the Cruciatus Curse: At the end of Book 3, while the school champions are in the labyrinth, Krum casted the Cruciatus Curse upon Cedric. Did he do it out of evil or was he under the Imperius Curse himself? I still haven't been able to work this out...

I agree with wickedwitch it was righteous anger that harry did that under that makes him better than the death eaters himself. Although I wonder if anyone from the ministry found out about the curse and if he will be punished. Remember when Imposter Moody said that it takes a lot pf power to do these curses and a lotof emotion. Just think how angry harry was to cause the slightest of pain.

I think Krum did the Curse while he was being controlled by the Imperious curse.

I wonder i now that LV is back if it is OK to do these "Unforgivable curses" on known death eaters. If harry tried to do it on LV what would happen? He has a lot of hatred for LV more so than with Bellatrix. His was just a moment while the hatred towards LV has been his whole life since entewring the wizarding world.

Also who all knows that harry did this curse? Will he tell ron and hermione or leave it out since it is so illegal?

I was very, VERY, suprised when I saw that word poke me straight in the eye! I couldnt believe that he had tried and I had to re-read it again to make sure I had read it correctly. I understand what he was feeling though and I doubt that will be the last time he uses it.

I wonder i now that LV is back if it is OK to do these "Unforgivable curses" on known death eaters. If harry tried to do it on LV what would happen? He has a lot of hatred for LV more so than with Bellatrix. His was just a moment while the hatred towards LV has been his whole life since entewring the wizarding world.


No, it still would'nt work. Remember what she said? Righteous anger wont work. Harry hurting Voldemort would be for revenge and justice - and the curse doesnt seem to work that way. You have to want to cause someone pain just because you can it seems.

Honestly that is one of my most favorite parts of the book. That may sound wierd or creepy but I love how it shows that Harry is human and he can let his emotions get ahold of him. It also showed how deeply he cared about Sirius. But like it was said, he did not sink down to the level of the Death Eaters IMO because his actions were out anger and he did not use the curse in the right way. That shows that he is not the type of person who wants to cause people pain just because he can.

I think that Harry will use those curses whether he wants to or whether he has to. I think that Harry is feeling guilty even from that one curse he said out of uncontrolable anger.

By using the Cruciatus Curse Harry has sunk to the very level of the Death Eaters. He just acted on his particular emotions at that time. That's what the Death Eaters do they act on their feelings of hate and anger. That's whast Harry did too. He hated Bellatrix Lestrange and was angry because she killed Sirius.

What automatically gives Harry a pass to use unforgivables because he's upset. Harry is constantly assuming that he has some sort of special rights because his parents were killed by Voldemort. Well Neville's parents were tortured into insantiy but you don't see him running areound like an idiot thinking he is the one who always has to save the day.

There are many examples of Harry thinking he is the one who needs to do something that really isn't his place. In SS he thinks that he needs to get the stone even when it isn't his place. It's not like Quirrel had any chance of getting it from the mirror. By going through the trap door Harry endangered the stone far more than ever before because instead of being protected by Dumbledore's brilliant charm it's just lieing in his pocket. Even if Quirrel had been able to get it DUmbledore could have gotten back in time.

In PoA Harry wants to kill Sirius and try's to. Harry at thirteen has demenstrated that he would kill someone. In OotP Harry goes even further and does kill Sirius be being an idiot and going after him. On top of this he endangers not only Neville, Luna, Ginny, Hermione, and Ron but the OotP as well.

Harry is obviosly not as grand a hero as thought.

I don't think Harry constantly tries to be the one to "save the day", I think he just thinks he's the only one who can/ that nobody else is going to do anything. And I certainly don't agree Harry killed Sirius by beeing an idiot, he did what he thought was right. He was very badly informed, wich is more Dubledores fault, and Snape didn't help very much either.