Harry Using the Cruciatus Curse

Well I have to admit one of the things that happens in this book was that Harry used one of the illegal curses.
I never thought that Harry would even dare to use it even though I think I understand how angry he was when he did it

What do you reckon, was that the first and last time we see Harry do one of the unforgivable curses?

it surprised me, i have to say, but i think it was a clever piece of writing. she's built up the philosophy behind those curses so well that simply by using it, we gain insight into how harry was feeling. that simple word, 'crucio', and the aura around it makes us realise the anger and the pain he is feelign that he so dared to use it.

I think we will see more "unforgivables" from Harry. I'm not so confident it will be crucio. The woman he was fighting (beatrixx?) said that you have to really mean it and enjoy it for it to be used to it's full effect and there are very few people that Harry could mean it for. At least at the moment. Depending on the events of the next two books that could change.

I was really surprised when Hary used the curse! It is slightly understandable as he was very angry that Sirius died, but still...

I hope thats the last time he uses it; but I doubt it somehow. He doesnt really have the power to use the Unforgivable curses, or at least not yet. It is dangerous for him to do one of them, as he could be expelled if he was found out. It was definatly the first time he has used the curse though, although Im sure he wanted to the first time he saw Sirius in the 3rd book.

I was really surprised myself. Although I can understand, too.

i think the key thing is that allthough he tried to use it it did not really work becuase he did not really mean it. he did not really want to cause pain to another person, this is why i don't think he will use them again, as harry is not as bad as tyhe death eaters. however this does make you think will haqrry be able to kill voldemort? does he have it in him to kill a perosn? whether that person ius evil or not its a big thing

He might use it again in the 6th book BUT it will probably be as unsecsessfull as the one he just used.....I doubt he will use the killing curse but maybe Imperio so he can gain control of a death eater in Voldemorts circle....but i doubt it....

I'm disapointed he may use illegal means to catch bad guys. I never was a fan of this method. Especially since more wizards will be under the imperius curse in the future.

He simply didn't care if he went to Azakaban. His mind didn't but his heart did because he couldn't perform it.
Unless I'm misreading this and he just isn't skilled enough.

He wil definately use an unforgivable curse at least once again: When he kills Voldie. Come on... you don't think Voldie is going to kill him, do you? It's much more likely that Harry will kill Voldie.

I think that he will use them on Bellatrix every chance he has... he'll blame her and himself for Sirius.

I still can't get used to writing that Sirius has died! Ach!

Originally posted by Weatherby (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=387790#post387790))
He simply didn't care if he went to Azakaban. His mind didn't but his heart did because he couldn't perform it.
Unless I'm misreading this and he just isn't skilled enough.


I don't think Azkaban was a concern at all. He didn't have the heart to perform the curse because he doesn't take joy from causing suffering. That's what is needed to perfom crucio well.

Skill would matter for some wizards, but it didn't seem to be an issue for Harry. He had the school, but not the genuine desire and enjoyment.

I think the Lestranges should be more afraid than they are. They have both Harry and Neville coming after them, and I think Neville is going to prove the world he's not half as inept as they believe (esp his grandma).
Harry will probably use Avada Kedavra in the future. Crucio and Imperius seem less likely, though not impossible. We'll have to see if Harry calms down in the next book or not first, though.

I think that JKR's explanation cleared some discussion on the forum some time ago about Unforgivable Curses, that you really have to mean it to use the curses... that's why only Death-eaters and maybe Aurors (well-trained) can do them... not everyone can do the curses... This also means that the person has to really hate the victim when using the AK curse, hate so strong that it kills... that's why if Moody said that the most they will get if they tried on him was nose bleed...

Why wasn't an owl sent to harry after he used the Crucio curse. he is an underage wizard and should be on his way to Azkaban.
Does the law only apply if the affect is significant?

I'm glad someone brought this up. I found Harry's use of one of the Unforgiveables more of a surprise than "the death". honest.

OK, it didn't work - Harry might have been feeling anger more than feelings of causing pain, etc. I can see that JKR meant it to reflect his anger and pain at the time. But I was really surprised.

I think, like Hermiones Mum that there will be consequences - Harry back at the ministry over the summer holidays defending himself once again. Bit similar to Book 5, that one though.

I can't see Harry using Avada Kedavra (Splet rong prbabbly) to kill Voldie. But that's a whole other thread

Originally posted by hermiones mum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=387983#post387983))
Why wasn't an owl sent to harry after he used the Crucio curse. he is an underage wizard and should be on his way to Azkaban.
Does the law only apply if the affect is significant?


I don't think the Department of Mysteries is on the radar of the restriction people. I don't think anyone saw him do it they were all a little busy.

I think the Ministry was a bit turned upside down to be noticing uses of magic.

My thought is.. some of the Death Eaters are going to die. It's better they die, really... Azkaban isn't going to keep them in any more.

I expect we'll see more unforgivable curses from the 'good guys' to put them in the ground.

And unless Harry can use the same weapons Voldemort is going to use on him -at- Voldie, he has no chance.

Well, I was kinda proud of Harry when he did that (Now don't start to throw rocks at me, it's just my opinion) The woman had just killed the peson who was family to him. And she was about to walk away from it, just like that. If it was me, I'd try the Adava Kendvra out of anger. (Lucky the books aren't about me)

Anyway, Harry doesn't succeed in doing the spell properly. He just feels rightous anger, not to enjoy someone's pain. He isn't a twisted dark wizard. He's a kid who just lost his godfather and is lashing out. Also this means that he has lots of magical talent. Able to partly do the Unforgivable Curses is kinda special, huh? At the age 15.

And unless Harry can use the same weapons Voldemort is going to use on him -at- Voldie, he has no chance.
I disagree with that line, and I think JKR disagrees with it too. I think part of the point of the series is that Death Eaters do what is easy and Harry does what is right.
Most of the time.

I was really surprised with Harry. And Unforgiveable Curse? But I was glad to see that when Bellatrix told him why it hadn't worked that he didn't try again. Now that he knew he had to want to cause pain to use the curse, and even though he did want Bellatrix to suffer because of what happened to Sirius, he still didn't try to use it again.

But I think he will have to use the 3 Unforgiveables again. I dread the moment he does, because at least one will definately end in a death, but I think it's a 'for sure' thing that he will have to. I only hope he doesn't take any pleasure in using them.

The prophecy said that either Harry has got to kill Voldemort or Voldemort has got to killl Harry. Does this mean he will have to use Avada kadavra (sp?)? or is there some other way the he can kill Voldemort

maybe there is a curse that punishes people, whose driving force is righteous anger?

like righteo!

I have to say, as soon as Harry said, "Crucio!" I was terrified. No! Not Harry! He's good! He wouldn't do something like that. I held my breath. Sorta relieved that it only knocked Bellatrix over and caused her a little pain. I was afraid he was going to try it again after Bellatrix told him he really had to mean it and all that stuff, but something told me he wouldn't do that.

Now to the killing curse. I think Harry has to use it. There's no real way around it, considering he's dealing with a very powerful wizard, I can't see what else he could do to kill him. I'm not looking forward to Harry becoming a ruthless killer. :(

yea....there is another way aparently...remember when Dumbledore was fighting with Vodlemore he said

wow! i spelled voldemort wrong on that post. Anyways on chapter 36 "The Only One He Ever Feared" Voldemort sas "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" ..."Above such brutality are you?" and Dumbledore says "We both know that ther are other ways of destroying a man, Tom"..."Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit-"

So thre might not be another curse that can kill, but Dumbledore said thre are things worse than dieing and so maybe Harry will use those or something. I don't no, just a thought

Harry will never use Imperio, I'm sure. It'd be too wrong for him.

He only used Crucio in the heat of the moment, and I'll bet that he won't be trying it again, since he could never enjoy inflicting pain really, no matter how angry he is. He's too nice! :)

And I agree with lilmispotter4eva, I don't think that he will Avada Kedavra Voldie. He'll use that power that Voldie doesn't have, and kill him somehow with his heart...

When harry said Crucio i was like YES! Show that evil *BEEP* how it feels to have done what she did to Nevilles parents and to then kill Sirius! Errrrrr I Hate her now more than Malofy! And thats alot! Harry I think will use the Unforgibs more in later books wehn he can just stun them. Or when hes really peed off! But i dont think harry will ever use the imperius curse i dont see a need for it with harry. Now avada kedavra he will use probably in the end. And cruicio he will use again im sure. I was wondering mermeber in GOF Moody said well not moddy but he said if you all tried to use avada kedavra rigth now it would give me less than a nose bleed. Do you think Harry is strong enought for that to accually kill someone now! I think it is!

#1 I find it disturbing that Harry would use that curse at all (yes, even though he just saw Siruis kick the bucket)

#2 Is the MoM just going to ingnore that offense? when they were so ready to expel him for defending himself and saving Dudley's life? I don't want to see Harry punished or anything, I'm just curious.

#1 As far as I know, the Unforgiveable Curses are still allowed against Death Eaters. I found it more telling that he didn't "want" to cause pain, and didn't submit to the desire, but used the spell out of "righteous anger." I remember in GOF somebody saying that Crouch authorized the use of the curses against the other side.

#2 I don't think anyone saw it. Fudge didn't even mention it.

I gasped when I saw he had used the Cruciatus curse. I almost yelled out "No! Don't do that you fool! You know it's illegal!!!" (I know it's useless to scream at a book :p) The curse didn't work, and it was never brought up again, so he wasn't punished for it, which was a huge relief. I do find it horrible that he used it. He just wanted to hurt her do badly after what she had done to Sirius. I would have wanted to as well. But it's scary to think he would use that curse.

1. I'm not to up set about Harry trying it. I actually would have been pleased if she had gone through a few minutes of pain. She killed my favorite character for pete's sake!
2. I don't think anybody saw it and Mrs. Lestrang isn't going to risk being caught to tattle on him.

The one thing I don't get is: apparently the Ministry of Magic can detect underage wizards using Patronus Charms and stuff, but they can't detect the Death Eaters (or Harry) using the Unforgivable Curses.

I was actually thinking that Harry would use an illegal curse on her. However I thought is was going to be avadra kadavra. I think that it was said in book 4 that the AURORS were given the ok to use the illegal curses on death eaters, not just anyone.

Wow, another Stargate fan! Cool!

Ahem... Back on topic...

Maybe Harry is powerful enough to give more than a nosebleed, but I don't think that he could kill anyone yet. I don't think that he really wants anyone dead - as Bellatrix said, righteuos (sp) anger doesn't count.

it seems more important that harry couldn't do the curse than that he tried. it's obviously not an issue of power or ability. everyone was very impressed that harry could conjer a proper patronus, so he is, obviously, a very powerful wizard for his age. i think it's very important that, even through his anger and sorrow, he couldn't do the Crucatius Curse, not because of a lack of power, but from a lack of a TRUE desire to inflict that kind of pain, even on the person he hates most. it's a testament to the fact that, regardless of how much of voldemort's power passed into harry, he is still completely unlike him in some very important ways.

andy

I think that this is very significant, but as with most of J.K.'s stuff, I'll have no idea exactly what it means until she spells it out for me. I have a hard time accepting that this isn't a sign of more revenge or anger from Harry, nut I really don't think I need anymore agnst.

I wasnt that surprised I was waiting for him to use one of them on somebody. But I dont think that he would use the Imperious Curse because I dont think that he would control anybody like that. But I think that he will definately use The other two in the future, probably in desperate circumstances.

I wasn't shocked at all. I hoped he would do something to her, because I hate her -VERY- much for killing off Sirius (ironic, isn't it, looking at my user name....?). I don't think that the Ministry knew what he did, because they didn't know when the curses were used illegally before, they couldn't even detect on Bode, so I doubt that they're gonna put Harry on trial for it. ...I think that it really shows how much Harry will do to get his revenge....

I'm going to merge the two threads that deal with this subject. :)

Ok the MoM was totally empty except for the Order, Death eaters, and a few students. Therefor noone would be able to tell Harry used Crucio because noone was there watching.

I was shocked when he did it. But then after thinking about it wish it would have done more. Lestrange Killed Sirius Brain damaged Nevillis Parents. She needs to feel PAIN!!!!

~Gmne

I was a little taken aback that it actually worked a little bit. True Bellatix wasn't caused severe pain, but she was taken off her guard and a little surprised at Harry using it.

It is a good thing that the MoM finally recognizes that Voldemort has returned. Otherwise I am sure Harry would have ended up in Azkaban for his use of the unforgiveable curse.

No way in hell is Harry strong enough to use Avada Kedavra usefully.

Originally posted by lex romero (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=387672#post387672))
i think the key thing is that allthough he tried to use it it did not really work becuase he did not really mean it. he did not really want to cause pain to another person, this is why i don't think he will use them again, as harry is not as bad as tyhe death eaters. however this does make you think will haqrry be able to kill voldemort? does he have it in him to kill a perosn? whether that person ius evil or not its a big thing


I don't know. I think he really meant it. But he didn't enjoy it. I think there's a difference btween wanting someone to suffer or trying to slow them down, and enjoying it. He would probably have had more luck with the death curse at that moment, if he'd had the courage to use it.

I don't know who I hate more, Bellatrix or Voldemort. I was surprised, but was hoping it would work *cough*.
It worries me though, that he attempted it, because it shows he's losing his heart.

In book three he found out who caused the parents death, and stopped Sirius killing him, completely different attitudes showing how much he has changed.

I can see Voldemort killing Dumbledore in book 7 and Harry being really mad and using AK and it working.

Yes, that's correct. Harry really did mean to use the curse, and its intent on causing pain, I would have done so at that point as well. As for enjoying its effect....he's not there yet, with a few more close deaths, I don't know, but as of now, I don't think he enjoyed it.

As for the person who started the thread's question, will he use another unforgiveable curse....(whatever they are called) I think there is a very good chance. For one you have to remember the prophecy. One has to kill the other, they can't be together alive. So obviously Harry is going to have to kill Voldemort, or die trying. Considering there is only, as of now, one killing curse, and it is classified as an "unforgiveable", I'd say he has a fair chance of using an unforgiveable curse. Then again there are other ways to kill a wizard so.....

EDIT:
I don't know who I hate more, Bellatrix or Voldemort.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I hate that woman. :angry:

I think Voldermort is worse than Bellatrix; but Voldermorts got style...

I dont think Harry will use Avada Kerdavra to kill Voldermort; I think he may use his "power" or a weapon, or something.
He wasnt really sure of what he was doing when he tried Crucio on Bellatrix; he was so angry, so he may not have exactly meant it properly, and certainly did not enjoy the prospect.

It was kind of a surprise when I read it. (I was like NOOO! Harry is supposed to be a good boy!) But then it shows in the book how Harry has sorta changed. For example, answering back to his teachers and having a bad temper, etc.

sorry I cheered when I read "crucio".My reaction was YES YES.. make that woman pay.

I also cheered when Harry shouted "Crucio" I'm just disappointed it didn't work. I wanted to see Bellatrix twitch like a bug.

I want to see her die veeeeeery slowly, veeeeeery painfully.

Shame Voldemort still saw her as a use because he saved her. though it will make her death hopefully more painful. I hope Neville get's the honour of killing her, yes I believe even more that Harry himself. Harry deserves the pleasure of killing Voldemort himself...

I sound really evil don't I?!

Yep very evil Helen :p At least we can assume that Voldemort had his fun with Bellatrix after he left :D

I was surprised for a second. However I've somehow known ever since Moody a.k.a. Barty Crouch Jr. showed the curses that Harry would eventually try to use one. After thinking about it, I'm surprised that Harry wouldn't try to use the Killing Curse instead. But I guess that harry was more into the pain aspect than the death aspect.

I don't think that Harry could ever enjoy hurting or killing someone. Not deep down, where it matters.

I also disagree that he's losing his heart, because it was his heart that stopped the curse from working. As Dumbledore said, his best bit is his heart - it's the power that he has that Voldemort doesn't. So he can't lose it!

I would like to add Umbridge to the list of people I hate... she's evil... :shudder:

first I was like, oh my god! then im thinking YES YES kill her!!! make it slow and painful!! lol Im evil, but I HATE HER!!! I really wanted to punch her out when she realised who neville was related to...ugh! :angry:

anyway, I think he used it out of anger. He is growing up and, like many teens, has a temper on him that gets him into trouble alot. People do supid things when they are angry, they say stupid things and do them out of anger. It is important it didnt work, it shows he doesnt have te heart to kill anyone and you can see this when he learns he hasta kill voldie do live, he states his life must end in murder, or he must be the murderer, and at the end when he is sitting alone and thinks this, you can see it troubles him.

He is a really powerful wizard, or is going to grow up to be!! he has powers he doesnt even know he has, that voldie doesnt know he has. I think, personally,he may use some of those curses or use some of his own "powers" and ways to kill voldie...like dumbledore said, death isnt the only way to kill a person.

and from what I understand.....voldemort didnt hear the whole prophecy....so he didnt hear the part that states one must kill he other to live, so at this point Harry knows more thsn voldie does, which is an advantage.

I think that Harry's been getting a lot more angry as the series progresses, so he'd be capable of trying this sort of thing again, depending on the circumstances... but I don't think it would work on account of his natural distaste for causing pain

Oh yes how she must have suffered when Voldie had his fun with her :D :D :D! Yes she is pure evil, when she realised who neville was related to.

Harry'll get angrier, as more people who he loves and cares about die. It reminds me of another series, where the hero distances themself in fear of losing the people they care about, can someone remind me please?!

Originally posted by Griffinmane (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=392237#post392237))
Ok the MoM was totally empty except for the Order, Death eaters, and a few students. Therefor noone would be able to tell Harry used Crucio because noone was there watching.

I was shocked when he did it. But then after thinking about it wish it would have done more. Lestrange Killed Sirius Brain damaged Nevillis Parents. She needs to feel PAIN!!!!

~Gmne


Her master tortures her.

All this talk of intent behind the curses made me wonder...in the fourth book, when the fake Mad-Eye Moody demonstrates the curses with the class, he was able to do all of them. Now, that makes sense, as he was a death eater and probably really *did* hate Harry and the others enough to use the curse on them. If it was the real Mad-Eye, though, would he have been able to use the curses on the class? Or do Aurors have greater powers?

Just thinking...

~Auralet~

Originally posted by Helhorns (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=392494#post392494))
Oh yes how she must have suffered when Voldie had his fun with her :D :D :D! Yes she is pure evil, when she realised who neville was related to.

Harry'll get angrier, as more people who he loves and cares about die. It reminds me of another series, where the hero distances themself in fear of losing the people they care about, can someone remind me please?!


Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula Leguin?

Or maybe Buzz Lightyear?

well, it proves that Harry does have emotions and is angry about the whole situation.. him having to grow up without parents.. with all the fame that he didn't ask for... and so many things that people his age wouldn't normally go through.... I think it just exploded when Sirius died

The ministry obviously doesn't monitor unforgivable curses, because the aurors used them on the deatheaters too. The fake Moody also used them when he was teaching at Hogwarts.

Perhaps Harry will use love to destroy Voldemort. Love was the weapon right?

Originally posted by zap2012 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=389865#post389865))
it seems more important that harry couldn't do the curse than that he tried. it's obviously not an issue of power or ability. everyone was very impressed that harry could conjer a proper patronus, so he is, obviously, a very powerful wizard for his age. i think it's very important that, even through his anger and sorrow, he couldn't do the Crucatius Curse, not because of a lack of power, but from a lack of a TRUE desire to inflict that kind of pain, even on the person he hates most. it's a testament to the fact that, regardless of how much of voldemort's power passed into harry, he is still completely unlike him in some very important ways.

andy


I hope that doesn't bode badly for his ability to kill Voldemort in the final confrontation.

Hmm, I don't know, but if it were me using the curse to pay back a person for a murder, you bet I'd enjoy the person rollingaround in agony! They'd deserve it! That's just my dark side, though. And Harry was probably too angry to enjoy much of anything at the moment.

Harry's use of Crucio is very very understandable, but I hope he doesn't go down the slippery slope to the Crouch/Umbridge way.

I didn't buy that whole "you have to want to hurt" thing. I know I know I can't contradict it...but then how'd Moody/Crouch use it on a spider?...And don't tell me Crouch hated spiders...>.>

Originally posted by Essbee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=392457#post392457))
I don't think that Harry could ever enjoy hurting or killing someone. Not deep down, where it matters.

I also disagree that he's losing his heart, because it was his heart that stopped the curse from working.


couldn't have said it better myself.

as far as harry using avada kedavra, i just don't think it would happen. For me, seeing harry use it would be simultaneously cool and disappointing. obviously, he'd be using it on voldemort, and i'd expect it would mark the villain's death. But, if Crucio takes a true desire to inflict massive amounts of pain, then wouldn't avada kedavra require the true, complete desire to see another human being die? and, once you can have that attitude towards one person, even your parent's murderer, couldn't you have it towards others? it would be a true loss of innocence for harry, a much more important one than his kiss with cho, and it would be depressing, i think.

harry must kill voldemort, we know that, but i just don't see it happening through the use of the killing curse, and, while harry is angry, frustrated, so are all teenagers, especially those in extraordinary situations. i don't think his attempted curse means he's lost his heart, or his inner goodness, i think it means he's a teenager, and, more importantly, a living, breathing person with flaws and emotions. (even though, of course, he isn't). i think it was a great move.

as far as the other series this reminds you of, i was thinking star wars. specifically, in return of the jedi when luke says "i shouldn't have come, i'm endangering the mission" when he knows darth vader can sense his presence.

andy

If I were Harry, I would use Avada Kedavra on her... :devil:

Ah well...double posting...too impulsive a poster am I...

Right when Harry said "Crucio" I was positively giddy. "Bout **** time he actually hurt someone :devil: ." And then...she explains the righteous anger thing...Now...as we've established, Harry WANTED to hurt her...but he didn't actually enjoy inflicting pain (I mean...if my godfather had just died I wouldn't enjoy inflicting pain on the person who killed him...I'd be sad that I had to) I don't think this means Harry's lost his heart. If anything its strengthened it.... righteous anger is much better than just sitting there crying...

Raistlin_Majere: about Crouch and spider- he could do it, you know, cause he is really bad man. But you musn't be that bad to hurt someone. It is a POWER of WILL. More you want to do this more it is possible it will happen.


And I will repeat it: I would kill Bellatrix. She is essence of evil.

did him using the curse actually work? i cant remember!

It didn't work properly. It hurted Lestrange a little but that's all. Because Harry is not accustomed to do it- to using forbidden curses...

oh. i dont remember that bit at all, was a bit blurry!

Well, I was a little surprised that it didn't work properlu, because if it was me, I would just enjoy having my revenge, seeing Bellatrix scream, in utter pain, and feeling that I had avenged Sirius truly- enjoying the fact that the person who murdered my godfather was suffering for it. She is evil, demonic and cruel, and I wouldn't be worried if it had worked. But it hadn't worked properly and that worries me a bit- does harry have the gut to kill someone, let alone hurt them? (*hopes that the slimy git called Draco will be used for practice)

Blurry because of Sirius? I think Harry's mind was a bit blurry, too... Poor boy :(

I also was suprised- was Harry weaken of his despair? I would be furious, outraged! I wolud be out of my mind, I could even kill...


Oopss... sorry, I forgot I am posting twice...

i wasnt suprised at all he used the cruccio curse. Im suprised it didn't work though. bellatrix had killed sirius probably his favourite person in the world offcourse he would want her to suffer. I would have used it if it was me

In a way, it was one of those educational moments JKR likes to share with Haary and us. We all learned something about the Cruscio.

I think Harry will have to use another unforgivable curse (perhaps Avada kedavra) to finally defeat Voldemort.

It came as a surprise when Harry used "Crucio!" on Bellatrix. I almost expected him to give at least another go at it, or perhaps to try a different one....

Though surprised I was, at that particular moment, I really wanted it to work. Darn.

Yeah, I was a little taken aback as well. I wanted him to do it though, after everything that he had been through, I wanted his anger to just reach the breaking point and make him do something that his conscience would later regret. Not because I'm a sadist and I wanted to see someone getting tortured :p. I just wanted Harry to crack and finally inflict some of the emotional pain he had been feeling in physical form onto someone else -- especially the person who had taken Sirius away. It wouldn't have accomplished anything other than to bring him down to their level, but this flawed character thing was definitely working for Harry throughout this book, and the successful torture of a fellow human being would have really sealed the deal on poor Harry's downward spiral. I can't blame him though -- he went through a lot.

But back to the Cruciatus Curse, I also had a hard time buying that he didn't succeed because he didn't really want to hurt her. At that moment, he was in such a reckless state of grief that I felt pretty sure that he wanted nothing else than to just kill her and make her suffer the way he was suffering. Of course, subconsciously he could have rationalized that the use of an Unforgiveable inside the Ministry itself was a stupid thing to do, since he already had enough to deal with, so that must have held him back.

Now that I think about it, it wasn't all that surprising that Harry attempted to torture Bellatrix. Think about everything that he was going through at the moment....it was only a matter of time before he lost it. It's always a little bit of a shock to see a character like Harry, who we've come to get used to being the perfect little hero, behaving so irrationally and violently -- but still, it was understandable.

She chose to make him try the cruciatus curse to show the impact of his loss and grief.
Harry will continue to greive over Sirius in the next books. He knows what he is missing. He never knew his parents.

Yes, as many of you have said, I was suprised...yet not. At the same moment in the heat of emotional reading I was thinking the same thing as Harry, except more along the lines of "killing" instead of great pain.

Yet, when you look at the part where he did cast the spell, he felt hate like never before, and then cast it. The part after that is where I think he faltered. I think that involuntarily the realization of what he was doing to this person, bad or not, dawned on him and he had a momentary let-down. Consequently stopping the full potential of the Crucio spell.

Despite all the hate that occured in him, he still faltered where as to cause great pain intentionally, which still means he is cautious even in great hurt. This is bad, really bad, considering he has to kill a person who has no problem killing anybody at anytime. Naturally, he's vulnerable. Thing is, what possible event could cause him to have the "hating" capacity to actually kill someone, let alone do the crucio curse?

I think he will be able to kill Voldemort eventually, but not necessarily with an unforgiveable curse. Unless he has permition, he would be sinking to their level, as he did when he used crucio.

On pg 810, Harry uses "Crucio" on Bellatrix,and as this is one of the "Unforgivable Curses", I figure he is going to be doing some hard time.

Nobody knows he performed that curse, and however if someone found out I'm sure he would be cleared of all charges, as he was acting a bit out of his mind. Besides, it'd be stupid to send him over there now that Voldemort has returned and the dementors may join him.

It didn't work, remember? And I don't think everybody noticed, did they? Do you think they have ways for finding out whether an Unforgivable was used other than seeing it?

Given all the 'luck' that Harry had in book 5, going to Azkaban seems to fit the pattern.

And wasn't the curse not quite effective? He said the words, but Bellatrix sure didn't experience the pain.

And now that the Ministry as well as the OotP believes that Voldemort is back, sending Harry to Azkaban is really out of the question, especially with the dementors on Voldemort's side.

This is war, and in war, you don't punish people for the other side's casualties, although you do try to avoid innocent victims, Death Eater's are far from innocent victims.

Nope. Llopin, I agree. Would they send a 15 year old into jail, anyway?!

It would be rather stupid to send him to a dangerous prision. And we know Dumbldeore wouldn't allow him, because he's not stupid. Besides, as stellaluna pointed out, the spell didn't work so Harry didn't actually perform it (he didn't damage anything).

Nobody was there to confirm it happened and when it all comes down to it the spell was very circumstantial and against a known Death Eater. Nothing would have happened to Harry even if someone had seen it I would think.

Well, for one thing, I'm sure that the MoM has other ways of tracking Unforgiveables other than seeing it happen with their own eyes. They knew about Harry's use of magic on Privet Drive almost immediately--they must have some magical way of detecting and tracing unauthorized magic.

I doubt Harry will go to Azkaban at the ripe old age of 15. The curse didn't work, after all, and the MoM Hit Wizards aren't about to swoop down on him and cart him off to Azkaban for attempting the Cruciatus Curse. With everything else that was happening, Harry's unsuccessful attempt would be the least of the Ministry's problems at the moment.

Perfect summary Callam ;).

FYI: I've merged the "Harry is going to Azkaban" thread to this one since the topic of this thread regards Harry's use of the Cruciatus curse.

"The prophecy said that either Harry has got to kill Voldemort or Voldemort has got to killl Harry"

First of all I didn't see that in the prophecy, it said neither could live whie the other was alive (something like that). Harry took that to mean he has to kill or be killed but I don't think that is going to happen.

I think in the end it will be a repeat of the beginning. Voldemort will try to kill Harry and Harry will manage to defend against it and turn it on Voldemort thereby killing Voldemort. End result being Voldemort casts the Unforgivable spell that results in his final death.

I see several scenarios:
- Voldemort is torturing somebody else (Hermione/girlfriend) so much to try to get Harry to use a one of the forbidden curse on them to try to make Harry go bad
- In book 6, Harry will be struggling mentally that he used the curse in book 5, thinking that he is not any better than the deatheaters
- He will not use the forbidden curses on Voldemort. He will use another curse involving love that is much more efficient and involved (e.g. something that destroys all evil or all wizards period)

In order to use the curse I think that you would have to hate that person (s) completley. And we see this because when "mad eye moody" in GoF used it on them it worked, and he hated all of them...and his hate was pure.

Harry while hating her and what she did, I don't think could truly ever wish death on another human being. (being as voldermort isn't human he doesn't count)

But i'm sure you already have touched on that...if so sorry ~:)

i'm sure the m.o.m. did probably get the jist about harry using an unforgivable curse.

but it would be a very embarassing situation to persectute him because harry had been tellng them voldy was back they ignored him and made fun of him. so it would make them look like jerks if they took actually took harry to court.

so they probably saw it was against a deatheater and after sirius had died and decided to over look it.

just a theory

If anybody does try go get Harry on the Crucio curse, Harry and Hermione can counter with the fact that Umbridge almost used the same curse on Harry.

I agree that AK is probably not what gets Voldemort. He's taken too many precautions against death in general. I suspect what gets him will be something indirect ... and involving Harry's heart more than his wand. (going out on a limb)

Didn't someone use the Imperious curse on that one girl (Cho's friend who ratted them out?)in Dumbeldore's office?

AK didn't kill him the first time around although he does have some of Harry's blood in him now so perhaps that will make him more human?

No, Amy, Kingsley simply modified her memory.. there were no Unforgivable curses used in that situation..

I too was very surprised to see Harry using the Cruciatus Curse.. quite surprised! I never would have expected that from him. And yet what maybe surprised me even more was that he couldn't do it. And then Bellatrix exlained that in order to perform and Unforgivable, you had to really want a person to suffer.. I would have thought that after Harry saw Bellatrix kill Sirius, he would have wanted nothing more than to see her suffer.

But still he couldn't make it work. It goes to show that Harry is the furthest from evil a person could ever be.. I don't think he'd ever be able to perform an Unforgiveable Curse correctly. If he couldn't pull it on Bellatrix, where is he to find more hatred to feed off of?

That leads to, no, I don't think Harry will be using the curses again, and will not be trying AK on Voldemort; that's what Voldy will expect. Plus, Harry would never be able to conciously kill someone and still live with himself.. there will be another way to do it that we just aren't aware of yet..

some of you are saying ur suprised.... hmm... lets see.. someone just killed your godfather... the closest thing he had to a family member.... and that person serves loyally the person that killed your parents... yea its REALLY supprising that harry used "crucio"

Personally I wasn't that surprised because at the moment I was thinking the same thing....though I have to admit it was more along the lines of "avada Ka...." other than "crucio". However, the thing I was surprised about was the fact that it did not work. Having those special circumstances which indebted Harry with great anguish and hatred, still, the curse did not work. Surely Harry isn't THAT noble to have momentary drawbacks while using that spell at that time! But sadly, I think that is what happened....to bad it would have really eased Sirius' death if it had worked. Oh well, but I think the real question is: Why didn't the spell work? If we found that out, I think we'd truly find out LOADS about Harry's character and the ways he view things...which would probably come in handy later on.

I would say that the majority of the reason that the curse did not work was because Harry is just not strong enough of a wizard yet. While he is doing rather advenced things like the Patronous Charm, he is still rather young. Besides he has never attempted to or even studied how to do something so powerful. Remember that Moody says in the GOF that they could all try it and he would doubt he would gat as much as a nosebleed. So to get as must as her being knocked off her feet was probally a suprising accomplishment.
I would add that there was probally some truth to her taunting of Harry that he probally is just too "nice" to use crucio effectivly, but I think the main factor is that he is just not powerful enough yet....

i think the reason it didnt work was because he might have said it out of anger, and realised he did an unforgivable curse, so he was kind of taken back for a second, forgetting his anger, so when he did not purse the curse will pure anger it stopped...

Olivander good point, so you are saying that if Harry wouldn't have realized what he was doing halfway through he would have been able to continue? Hmmm... time to reread the passage....

If Harry had been successful with the curse, would he have felt any better, Voldemort would have been able to take him over completely

Originally posted by stellaluna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=402455#post402455))
It didn't work, remember? And I don't think everybody noticed, did they? Do you think they have ways for finding out whether an Unforgivable was used other than seeing it?


I think it's the priori incantatum (or something like that) that shows all the spells a wand has been used for in reverse order.

I hate to say it, but I think Voldemort will meet his end in a Disneyesque fashion. Harry will hesitate to actually kill him, but in the process of whatever life and death duel they are locked in, Voldemort will self destruct somehow. Perhaps he will fall through that veil.

You know the old saying, "give a dark wizard enough power and he'll zap himself."

I think it was really clever how JK did this - not only did it show us the immense feelings of harry after sirius died, it showed us how harry couldnt find it in himself to hurt another human, showing what a good person he is in comparison to voldemort, who finds it very easy, so its another way of showing the polar opposites of the good and evil thing.

It also gives us a lot to think about, as we see later that in the prophecy, harry has to kill voldemort or voldemort has to kill harry. For Harry to kill voldemort, he has to find it in himself to destroy voldemort and it might make him a less likeable person. It also gives harry something to think about - because i dont think he liked using cruciatus on bellatrix, its not something hed do in ordinary circumstances, so realising as JK puts it that harry life "will end or involve murder" must be quite shocking for him.

i was very supprised when i read the word Crucio! but considering harry was very angry and didnt care what happened to him. i quickly understood.

Originally posted by jimmifer (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=405949#post405949))
I think it was really clever how JK did this - not only did it show us the immense feelings of harry after sirius died, it showed us how harry couldnt find it in himself to hurt another human, showing what a good person he is in comparison to voldemort, who finds it very easy, so its another way of showing the polar opposites of the good and evil thing.



I'm becoming more convinced that the power that Harry has so much of and Voldemort none, is goodness. It includes love and all the virtues and is more that any of them. Harry doesn't seem to have a mean bone in him.

In book 5 when Harry tried to use the Cruciatus Cuse why did it never work for him and Lestrage make fun of him for it. Didn't she say something about not being able to becasue your not a dark wizard?anyone know?:grumble:

It was becuase he didnt mean it apparently, or didnt enjoy it. Also probably he wasnt strong enough to do it anyway.

She said it was because he didn't mean it.

"You have to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain-to enjoy it-righteous anger won't hurt me for long..."

Harry doesn't have the sick mind of many of the death eaters and never having used the curse before didn't help matters. He didn't have the total evilness of Bellatrix...

she tells him that for the curse to work you have to mean it, implying that harry didn't have the cruelty necessary to work the curse. there is nothing about needing to be a dark wizard to use the curse. we see umbridge use it, though perhaps the jury is still out on whether she is a dark witch or not.

Yea I think Harry is strong enough to do it, but as Hpmons said he didnt mean it. It was a last resort and he didnt really wanna use the spell for evil, eventhough he did wanna kill Bellatrix.

I think in order for it to work properly you actually have to want the other person to feel pain-and to enjoy it- and Harry was just doing it out of pure rage. I like his rage though ;) but I think you have to be just incredibly evil to use it

I'm going to merge this with a similar, more extensive thread.

hi, im new here.
I really think if Harry goes on using the curses, he will eventually fall into the dark side...and tha would be cooool. heheheh:devil:

Originally posted by whizbang121 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=410129#post410129))
I'm becoming more convinced that the power that Harry has so much of and Voldemort none, is goodness. It includes love and all the virtues and is more that any of them. Harry doesn't seem to have a mean bone in him.


Well, I like what you say, but he does have mean thoughts. He just can't really carry out his actions, which may help him someday. He may be in Azkaban, if he was able to do everything he thought about doing! He is only mean to people that are mean to him though.

I think the fact that Harry has to kill or be killed really came as a shock to him. I think all this time he was hoping Dumbledore could get rid of Voldemort, but now he knows he can't. Even though I know he wants to kill Voldemort, I don't think he ever imagined that he would have to do it. It will be interesting to see the dilemma he goes through at that final moment...

You know what's weird, i think that, as Bellatrix kindly explained, you can only use unforgivable curses when you are REALLY angry. So at the time Harry used the cruciatus curse, he must have felt A LOT of anger. Maybe, at in the end Harry, after becoming increasingly angry at the death of all of his friends, will let out that anger in one green blast...

I'm going to check up on what Mad Eye said in Book four about the avada keradava...

But the Cruciatus Curse wasn't a dud, it did work and was really powerful, it's just that righteous rage doesn't work like hate. You express it and it goes away.

Just for clarification, Are you saying that Harry does not have the right type of anger to make the curse work or that Harry was not able to express a required type of anger long enough for the curse to really work ?

He had the rage and the power as indicated by the fact that the curse ACTUALLY DID WORK, but righteous rage dissipates after you express it, so it isn't conducive for extended torture. So Bella was telling a half-truth, trying to unnerve her opponent by throwing her resume at him because she realized that he was at least as dangerous as Sirius who she had just barely beaten.

I was expecting this. I can't believe people are suprized, in fact I ANTICIPATED IT.! I knew it was coming and I COULDN'T wait for it to happen.! Not that I wanted him to, I was sorta hoping for it.

I think Harry will use them again. Maybe just once though...

And I agree that it did definetely work.

I think may be right about the anger thing jordmundt6.

But I think it disapated as well because though he definetely hates her now, I don't think he really wanted to cause her anguishing pain, so it didn't last very long.

Oh, I don't know about that. It sounded from the narrative that he was surprised and frustrated with himself that she wasn't writhing like a stuck pig or screaming while curling into the fetal position. He thought it was a dud too. He believed her. And he shouldn't have.

Edit: Plus he said: "She killed SIRIUS. I'll KILL her!"

But when he said "I'll kill her" why hasn't he used the Avada Kedavra instead?

I think he was just too weak to be able to concentrate the powerful magic that AK requires. Like in GF when Crouch, Jr. says that the most their AK spell could do to him was probably giving him a bloody nose. Or was that some other spell?

Oh it's no surprise at all that Harry resorted to an Unforgivable Curse right there. What was a surprise, though, was that he didn't just go for Avada Kedavra. I believe he really meant it when he performed Cruciatus; he wanted that evil woman to feel the hurt that he felt, to rip out her heart. But I think it didn't work because he could't have enjoyed it, assuming what Bellatrix said about enjoying the pain was true. Harry would still hurt, still have that big gaping hole in his heart, with nothing to fill it but a big ol' helping of ache. Making her hurt wouldn't have alleviated his pain at all.

I think he'll probably use an Unforgivable again. I could see him *trying* Imperius to perhaps gain some insider information to help along with the good fight or something like that. Avada Kedavra would just be too predictable a way for him to vanquish Voldie, but I think this is how it's going to end. (Or maybe Harry's just gonna give him a big ol' hug or something simple like that and then he'll burst into a thousand pieces and be gone forever. Right now, I don't think anything would surprise me...) But I don't think Harry's gonna, like, practice the Unfogivables or anything like that.

Remember when Bellatrix was taunting Harry about his love for Sirius, and Harry lost control and tried to use the Cruciatus on her? How come he never got in trouble for for this?

Probably because it didn't work.

Though I really really wanted it to. She deserves worse then a crucio if you ask me....

still though...aren't the Unforgiveable Curses worth time in Azkaban?

dunno......perhaps nobody noticed it

I would think a highly-important location such as the Ministry of Magic would have a higher surveillance to spells being used in the area, but.. maybe it was disabled somehow by the Death-Eaters in advance. "Just in case."

Well it was a Death Eater he tried using it on. One that had just killed his Godfather. And since it didn't work in the first place no one really cared or witnessed it. It's sort of like the question: If a tree falls and no one's around to hear it, does it still make a sound? If Harry uses an unforgiveable curse but it doesn't work, does that still mean he used it? No... (or maybe that's a bad example because I think the tree would still make the sound lol)

I think it was a combination of the fact that he used it in battle against a Death Eater and that it didn't work. Remember, umbridge said the Unforgiveable Curses were allowed when their use was justified, and in GoF, Sirius said something about the Aurors being given permission to use them.

And it would not be a good time for Fudge to further annoy Dumbledore by persecuting Harry. Fudge has more on his plate right now than he can probably handle.

I would have to agree with Inkwolf on this one. I don't think he got into trouble because alot of what went on in the MOM wasn't witnessed by anyone from the ministry until the end. They didn't even know Sirius was with them. And the fact that it didn't work at all helped too. However, who knows what might happen in the next book. The entire story will come out eventually and maybe Harry will get slapped with something. OOOOO can you imagine if Fudge tried to send Harry to Azkaban?? All hell would break loose then. But I don't think it would come to that. Things were starting to turn around at the end of OOTP.
:ghost:

Perhaps his punishment has not been dealt with *yet*. And remember, the Cruciatus curse did work for about a second - rememeber, Bellatrix yelped in pain and then started to laugh ... so it did have SOME sort of affect on her, just not the desired results.

I reckon that people will find out that he used an Unforgivable Curse in the next book and it could cause friction between some characters. What that may lead to for Harry (Azkaban? - unlikely) is anyone's guess.

Well I agreeded wholeheartedly with GlassRoses314 in saying that he's didn't (or haven't) been punished for using an unforgivible curse becuse it didn't work, no magic happened, though I wanted so dearly to see it did, Bellatrix deserves to suffer, and I don't think that later on Fudge's gonna punish Harry later on because after all, he can't be in denial to the fact that Voldie's back anymore so I don't think he would be punishing Harry for placing a curse on a death eater, though I can't quite imagine him being 'chummy' toward Harry like he did before but if he tries to act like nothing has happened and how he has treated Harry didn't happend I'm sure Harry would set him straight.

I'm glad it didn't work. Bellatrix deserves it, but Harry shouldn't get started on the path to evil!

yeah, i think the whole azkaban thing only applies to properly executed unforgiveables... tis most unfortunate it didnt work though, as he probably could have gotten away with it... i also dont think the surveillance on unforgiveable curses is that good, as death eaters use them all the time and arent caught. perhaps the ministry had given up on voldemort and his death eaters, but it seems odd that we havent seen detection of these curses. (the whole crouch-crouch fiasco, krum, etc...) they can detect underage magic in a second, but they dont monitor the illegal curses?

I doubt anything will happen to Harry in terms of the law bearing down on him. After all, like Inkfwolf and others mentioned, he was fighting a death eather, and the curse didn't work properly either (even though I wouldn't mind seeing Bella writhing with pain).

I do think, though, some of Harry's peers/members of the OotP might look at Harry differently if they get word of what he tried to do.

Okay y'all must be joking about punishment right? He was in a life-or-death duel that he didn't initiate! He's permitted to use magic to save his own life or the lives of others. Plus, it was a battle and he was pursuing an important if not THE MOST IMPORTANT DE. Also, the Curse did work. It wasn't a dud. But, yeah. Harry staying good is more important (right now) than Bella being punished.

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Thanks -- I'll merge these now.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=448929#post448929))
Okay y'all must be joking about punishment right? He was in a life-or-death duel that he didn't initiate!

sorry? if i remember correctly, harry tracked bella down and initiated the duel.

In the next book don't they learn all of those curses, because if i remeber correctly in GoF Moody or one of the students say something about learning the Unforgivable Curses in the sixth year, someone back me up on this.

I wasn't surprised he used the curse because I can see why he did it. For the first time someone he really cared for died in front of him to the hands of a Death Eater. He must have been feeling so much pain, especially with all that was going on. I think Harry will use them, but I don't know if they will necessarily work, because I don't think he has it deep down in him to want and love to cause pain to someone else like the Death Eaters and Voldemort do.

firebolt2000 I agree.! And i feel the same way.! I dunno why people were suprized, I expected it. I would've done the same thing, and I doubt it would've worked any better for me... lol.! Though I'm NOWHERE near as brave(or foolish) as Harry.

But I think there were many things in the book 4 pointing to it. Personally I thought it may have happened in book for, but not enough pain had mounted yet. And Harry's not so hateful as Voldemort or the DE's, so its doubtful they'll work to well, but it wont stop him from trying,,,

It is interesting, though, is it not, that immediately following Sirius's death, in a moment of complete rage and utter devastation, that Harry only uses Cruciatus against Bellatrix. If he's going to use an unforgivable curse (and he's fully aware of the consequences) why not use Avada Kedavra?

If Harry is unable to bring himself to attempt to kill in such desperate circumstances as this, it makes me wonder whether he will ever be able to kill.

Ok guys really........ i know for a fact that harry wont use Avada Kedavra to kill voldy... it's dumb.....

Why? Cause if you read carefully Dumbledore tells Voldemort that there are things much worst than death in this world..... also we have yet to find out all of what harry can do.

Oh and he will have utter sucess next time he preforms Crucio.. and hopefully it will be on Bellatrix


I think we will see a darker vengefull side of harry potter..

He used Crucio cause he wanted more than death for Bellatrix, he wanted to torcher her into insanity much like she did you nevilles parents.

eh...i dunno if it was a neville related thing....i think it was more a sirius thing than anything else. he wanted her to hurt like she had hurt him, he wanted to see her suffer like he has suffered and he wanted to see her hurting because she killed sirius. i'm not sure neville was really on his mind at the moment.

He didn't want to inflict his pain on her, he wanted justice for her murder of his godfather. If Harry had "wanted her to suffer like he had suffered" the curse might have worked the way it does for the DEs. That would have been a real tragedy.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=451244#post451244))
He didn't want to inflict his pain on her, he wanted justice for her murder of his godfather. If Harry had "wanted her to suffer like he had suffered" the curse might have worked the way it does for the DEs. That would have been a real tragedy.


Yeah, but his first words about it afterwards were SHE KILLED SIRIUS! I'LL KILL HER!...something like that. How do you know that he didn't want to inflict pain on her? The first spell that cme out of his mouth was the Crucio Curse. He might have wanted to hurt her, I don't think he would've enjoyed it (which is probably why it didn't work), though. I think it was probably his love and all that junk that stopped him from it.

Poo. I wanted to see her suffer for longer than she did. :shrug:

Originally posted by Moah (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=388044#post388044))
I think part of the point of the series is that Death Eaters do what is easy and Harry does what is right.
Most of the time.


Like most bad/good guys.

I was actually disappointed in the way Harry reacted to Sirius dying. I mean, Dudley is mean and he gets a python sicked on him. Aunt Marge insults Harry's parents and she gets inflated. Now, the closest person to Harry dies and all the murderer gets is Crucio? Come on! The anger I felt after that happened would have blown the entire Ministry building sky high and probably would have left no survivors. Am I right Sirius lovers?

It wasn't "I'll watch that :censored: squirm!" He wants retribution.

Originally posted by moon17 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=452138#post452138))
I was actually disappointed in the way Harry reacted to Sirius dying. I mean, Dudley is mean and he gets a python sicked on him. Aunt Marge insults Harry's parents and she gets inflated. Now, the closest person to Harry dies and all the murderer gets is Crucio? Come on! The anger I felt after that happened would have blown the entire Ministry building sky high and probably would have left no survivors. Am I right Sirius lovers?


haha, ya I agree. I also agree with what lestrange said. he wanted to cause her pain for what he did to his only living parental figure but, the fact that it didnt work is a good thing too, shows that Harry has to much of a heart to do that :) I hope Bellatrix dies a sloooooow painful deeeath!!!!! she deserves it!

summer, definetly shows harry is not a bad person and that he didn't want to hurt her, he wanted his godfather back. big difference. does he want revenge, yes, but he knew that making her suffer would not make him feel better.
it would make me feel better though ;)

Originally posted by FredRocksMySocks (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=452159#post452159))
summer, definetly shows harry is not a bad person and that he didn't want to hurt her, he wanted his godfather back. big difference. does he want revenge, yes, but he knew that making her suffer would not make him feel better.
it would make me feel better though ;)


it would make me feel better to lol.

also, he probably realizes torturing her wont bring back the person he lost...geez he handled it much better than I would have :)

same, i really hope that we don't see harry using any more of the unforgivables, though...it's just not worth it. he's better than this.

He may be better than that, but he still has a lot of rage that he hasn't really learned how to control.

I dont think he will...I may be wrong,but when defeating voldemort I think, like others have said, he has powers that he and we dont know about yet that will help him.

I think he will probably control his anger better, but eventually he will be tap into the anger to defeat Voldemort.

Just a thought...
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but in book four, when Harry is thinking to himself during Potions, he states that 'if only he knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse... he'd have Snape flat on his back like that spider, jerking and twitching...'
Thoughts, anyone?

But I think he hates Bella for what she did to Sirius and Neville's parents more than he hates Snape (at least when he used the curse). So, if he'd tried it on Snape he might have gotten similar results.

Originally posted by ssssalizar (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=452256#post452256))
Just a thought...
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but in book four, when Harry is thinking to himself during Potions, he states that 'if only he knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse... he'd have Snape flat on his back like that spider, jerking and twitching...'
Thoughts, anyone?


I think that he was just angry at Snape at that moment, like when you want to slap someone. Besides, Harry at the time hadn't had the Crucio Curse used on him, he didn't know what it felt like to go through that much pain. If knew what it felt like at the time, he wouldn't have wished that on him.

I don't think he'd try it, either. It was like a little fantasy, to smack Snape around for a bit. ...If he did, imagine what Snape would do. :scared:

very true lestrange, how many times do yo sit there and wish you could kick somebody for doing something, and then later think 'eh..i could go either way on that one' and while i am sure harry def. stil would want to hex snape, i don't think he would literally use the cruciatus curse on him. we all have our little fantasies, but usually it is harmless.
but, lol, i think harry'd be in bits if he did do something to snape...he's so edgy!

I was honestly surpirsed to see him utrying to use the Cruciatus Curse and very pleased at the same time. It is war we're talking about, I am not sure if he'd get arrested for that. And I was too angry with that Bellatrix Lestrange worm that I wanted to see her in pain... in big pain!

I was surprised to see him use the Cruciatus Curse, but thinking about it, it's really very appropriate.
The deeper the magic, the more important the intent in getting it to work. For very deep and powerful magic like the Unforgivable Curses, not only the intent but the motives are important. For the curse to work properly the inflicter has to want to cause pain because they enjoy watching other people suffer. Harry wanted to cause Bellatrix pain, not because he would enjoy it but because she deserved it, so the curse only half worked. I was impressed, both at Harry's daring to use the curse and at his not being able to make it properly work, even at the height of his anger and grief.

Actually, I really wasn't suprised because when I was reading, mainly due to the fact I was thinking of doing the same thing....except more along the line of "Avada Kedavra" though. However, I was quite pleased that he did the curse and it lessoned my anguish at the moment. I am also glad that it did not work though. Why? Well, to show that the crutacious curse doesn't work from Harry, in the time where he has felt the most "hate" in his life...it says something. It truly shows just how noble he is. Even extracting his revenge on Sirius' killer, he really didn't want to cause the pain.

Although by most it is considered a weakness, I have full confidence that the reason that he couldn't finish a crutacious curse, will one day be used as his strength.

Yes this does show how noble HArry is but I hoped that it would have worked because i wanted Harry to get revenge.

I was so mad about Sirius that I was wanting to shout Crucio! myself so I wasn't at all surprised... Anyway I'm sure Harry will use unforgivable curses, at least learn them properly.

Yes this does show how noble HArry is but I hoped that it would have worked because i wanted Harry to get revenge.

Don't worry, Neville will do it for him :agree: :tu:

i hope harry uses the cruciatus curse again. if i was harry omg the curse would of worked to the full power. i would of wanted to inflict pain on her sooooooooo much. i would even resort to using a avada! i know for SURE he will use a cruciatus again. and mayb a avada at the end.

What got me more than anything was his choice of curse... He knew the right incantations and wand movement for all 3 of the curses (thanks to fake moody)... Why would he choose to use the torture spell to avenge a killing???

I know if it were me, I would use the one that would kill the witch, not one that could possibly not work...

Also, a little off topic... Now that Harry has performed atleast one of those curses, do you think that he would ever think of doing them over something less tramatic...(like a door was opened, one that he might not want closed...) Harry has alot of anger and even hatred for alot of people... Voldemort, Bellatrix, Draco, Snape, Umbridge, Kreacher, Fudge, Percy... Do you think that it would be possible for him to lose control and attack one or more with that curse... (especially Snape and Malfoy, they tempt him too much)

i am sure harry will use more unforgivable curses...i am also sure that harry will turn sort of dark at one point and draw himself into isolation just by himself and then thats when he will be doing the curses but not many of em lol but these are just my horrible theories which i dobut will come true

What got me more than anything was his choice of curse... He knew the right incantations and wand movement for all 3 of the curses (thanks to fake moody)... Why would he choose to use the torture spell to avenge a killing???

I know if it were me, I would use the one that would kill the witch, not one that could possibly not work...

Also, a little off topic... Now that Harry has performed atleast one of those curses, do you think that he would ever think of doing them over something less tramatic...(like a door was opened, one that he might not want closed...) Harry has alot of anger and even hatred for alot of people... Voldemort, Bellatrix, Draco, Snape, Umbridge, Kreacher, Fudge, Percy... Do you think that it would be possible for him to lose control and attack one or more with that curse... (especially Snape and Malfoy, they tempt him too much)

You brought up a lot of good questions. Well done. :tu:

It is interesting of his choice of spells though to say the least. Why not kill him? After all she just killed your god-father! Again, I think that it is that noble blood he has. Yes, the same thing that made him let Wormtail be free. Someday, this generosity and kindness is going to kill him, but I for one am a firm believer that it will save him.

Also, about your question whether or not he'll lose his cool against the numerous possiblities...I'd say there is a fair chance. However touchy he was last year, he's going to be extremely fragile now. There are a huge amount of people that have a great chance of touching a nerve...especially considering he has so many of them now.

I think the only way he can possibly hold his temper within bounds this next year totally depends on how the outcome of his rehibilitation goes about. Whether or not he is calmed and brought back to life is crucial. If he isn't before he goes to school we may see some drastic measures from him. We just need to see what lupin and hermione can do to console him and face the fact that sirius is dead. As matter of fact, his whole life depends on how he comes out of this tragic demise....and it'll will be interesting to see which path he chooses.

I have to be honest, I didn't read all the posts, sorry!

But I have to say that it was appalling that Harry used the Cruciatus Curse. I really hope that this is addressed in book 6.

And while I also could envision Bella shooting her gun at Sirius and then Harry picking up another gun and aiming it at Bella, wrong is wrong.

The heat of the moment is a pathetic excuse. But Harry actually said the word "Crucio" really gives insight to what he's capable of doing.

Unless (Hope dawning, starting to feel good about Harry again...) Voldemort was punishing Bellatrix through Harry and the word just came out!

Well Teacup, I'd have to say you seem to be slightly in the minority on this opinion. Wrong IS wrong, but the closest thing Harry had to real family was just murdered in front of him. Given his capacity for rage and hatred (as explored in PoA) the hate compounded with the grief seems at least plausible. The fact that it didn't actually work the way it was supposed ot means that even at his worst, Harry doesn't have that kind of hatred in him. That's actually quite a hopeful sign. Also, Voldemort isn't that indirect. If he's displeased, he administers the punishment personally (like he does with Avery all the time).

You brought up a lot of good questions. Well done. :tu:

It is interesting of his choice of spells though to say the least. Why not kill him? After all she just killed your god-father! Again, I think that it is that noble blood he has. Yes, the same thing that made him let Wormtail be free. Someday, this generosity and kindness is going to kill him, but I for one am a firm believer that it will save him.

Also, about your question whether or not he'll lose his cool against the numerous possiblities...I'd say there is a fair chance. However touchy he was last year, he's going to be extremely fragile now. There are a huge amount of people that have a great chance of touching a nerve...especially considering he has so many of them now.

I think the only way he can possibly hold his temper within bounds this next year totally depends on how the outcome of his rehibilitation goes about. Whether or not he is calmed and brought back to life is crucial. If he isn't before he goes to school we may see some drastic measures from him. We just need to see what lupin and hermione can do to console him and face the fact that sirius is dead. As matter of fact, his whole life depends on how he comes out of this tragic demise....and it'll will be interesting to see which path he chooses.

However noble his blood is, even the most honorable of wizards can lose there tempers (see Harry's trial, Dumbledore's speech). Plus if he was mad enough to do cruciatus then I am pretty sure that he could have found it in him to do AK...

Harry does keep letting people live... Now this can and will be used against him... Hermoine stated in OOTP that Harry has a "saving people thing"... That if possible, he will try anything to save anyone (ginny, fleurs sister, etc)...

Harry also has a thing against having people die, and I think that will come back to haunt him... Dumbledore (I believe) said that when one wizard saves anothers life, they are connected (or something like that) Now Harry has both Bellatrix and Wormtail in his debt, but I do not think that Death Eaters follow the same rules of engagement as the rest of the wizarding world... If Harry is so against killing, one question to ask ourselves is: Can Harry kill Voldemort... Harry never knew his parents, he knows of them and what happened to them... However he knew Sirius, cared about Sirius, and as far as we could tell, loved Sirius... Yet he could not bring himself to kill because Sirius died... The prophecy states rather clearly that Harry must kill Voldemort (or Voldemort kill him) so if Harry when not pull the trigger so to speak, we all know that Voldemort will have no problem pulling it for him...

Take into consideration of what happened with Snape, Harry, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in the hallway... Harry said that he was thinking of what curse to use on the three, which I myself take to mean a foreshadowing of Harry using possibly one of the 3 on Malfoy to say the least... Plus after knowing what Harry had been through in the last few days, Snape (the heartless *******) still had the nerve to deduct points and chastise Harry for losing his cool, yet says nothing to Malfoy about his activities... Also how do we know that Snape has indeed switched sides... His behavior says one way, but with JK's ability to swerve every plot that we have figured out... Just when we think that Snape cannot possibly be evil (because of him always being a suspect) he turns... With Snape knowing and mastering Occulermy(sp), it is quite possible for him to have lied to Dumbledore and the rest of the Order as easily as he says he does it to Voldemort...

I do not think that Harry is going to be able to let go of his rage... He's going to dwell on the fact that he now has 2 people's blood on his hands (cedric and Sirius), if what happened to Cedric caused that much emotion turmoil, just think what will happen if Harry's buttons are pushed too much over the next few months (which is why I think that the group of wizards went over and threatened the Dursleys, making them want to behave before Harry makes then twitch like the spider...

The best thing that they could do for him is let him go to the Burrow... While I know he must stay at the Dursley's atleast 1 night a year, it would be a lot less hard if he was with friends in a happier enviroment...

I know the Burrow is not safe, but him going insane like Kreacher from lack of true human contact isn't good...

It is a possibility that he could go back to Grimmauld place, but seriously, do you think that it would be a good idea for him to go to Sirius's house???

i think that the use of crucio is an accepted weapon against de's bc of crouchs attitude on it last time. However, Sirius did say in bk4 that Moody never used ak and that implys that the use of an unforgivable curse is unnaceptable in his eyes. So maybe if Lupin finds out about this he will be disapointed in Harry but not say anything bc he doesnt want to seem insensitvie to Sirius' death. The Dursleys do have to watch out though, I dont think that Harry would call upon Lupin to come if they did do something mean to him and Harry would just take it upon himself to take care of Dudley. I think that Harry might be inheriting Sirius' house, but that he wont be going there nxt summer.

Take into consideration of what happened with Snape, Harry, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in the hallway... Harry said that he was thinking of what curse to use on the three, which I myself take to mean a foreshadowing of Harry using possibly one of the 3 on Malfoy to say the least... Plus after knowing what Harry had been through in the last few days, Snape (the heartless *******) still had the nerve to deduct points and chastise Harry for losing his cool, yet says nothing to Malfoy about his activities... Also how do we know that Snape has indeed switched sides... His behavior says one way, but with JK's ability to swerve every plot that we have figured out... Just when we think that Snape cannot possibly be evil (because of him always being a suspect) he turns... With Snape knowing and mastering Occulermy(sp), it is quite possible for him to have lied to Dumbledore and the rest of the Order as easily as he says he does it to Voldemort...

Exactly. He hasn't been reconciled yet. And until he is, he is dangerous and relatively unpredictable. We'll be really really lucky not to have him blow up before he is truly calmed down and the situation you described could have been a bursting point...but luckily it was stopped. That's why it is so vital that he is returned into a semi-natural state as quickly as possible. All that down time at the Dursely's won't help either.

I do not think that Harry is going to be able to let go of his rage... He's going to dwell on the fact that he now has 2 people's blood on his hands (cedric and Sirius), if what happened to Cedric caused that much emotion turmoil, just think what will happen if Harry's buttons are pushed too much over the next few months (which is why I think that the group of wizards went over and threatened the Dursleys, making them want to behave before Harry makes then twitch like the spider...

I agree. I personally think that he will find a way through others a way to be mildly in control of himself....temporarily. There is no way that Harry, whom is a person who does not forget quickly nor does he like cowardness and evil, is going to let those two deaths just slide by....sooner or later there is going to be some sort of retaliation. As to what form it may take, it's anybodies guess. But seeing as one of the natural ways to extract one's revenge is by using one of the unforgivable curses, I'd say there's a pretty good chance we may hear them from Harry's mouth in the future.

It is a possibility that he could go back to Grimmauld place, but seriously, do you think that it would be a good idea for him to go to Sirius's house???

He's got to get over it sooner or later :shrug:

Exactly. He hasn't been reconciled yet. And until he is, he is dangerous and relatively unpredictable. We'll be really really lucky not to have him blow up before he is truly calmed down and the situation you described could have been a bursting point...but luckily it was stopped. That's why it is so vital that he is returned into a semi-natural state as quickly as possible. All that down time at the Dursely's won't help either.
Relatively unpredictable... You have the most powerful, out of control force imaginable.. A wizard with (in his mind) nothing to lose, who's inherited a hotheaded/cocky attitude from his father, which was encouraged by his now dead godfather. Throw in the fact that Harry truly has reason enough to become a ball of rage and hate before now, but witnessing the person who he loved most die in front of his eyes(and the way he blamed himself) is just what I think Voldemort was wanting.. Now Harry has just as much reason as wanting to face Voldemort... Having already escaped/beat Voldemort 4 times, he is bound to think himself unbeatable, especially when he knows the prophecy and Voldemort does not...

It is going to be a near impossible feat to turn Harry back into a relatively calm state, unless they turn him into a Neville like person... Hermone and Lupin neither one will be able to do it... I think the person it is going to take is Neville. Having both felt similar pain (pain neither Ron nor Hermoine has ever felt) I believe that those two will become better friends, and if OOTP is any indication of how much Neville can do when his mind is set on it, then he could be a bmf if he really wanted to... In JK's books, everything has a reason, and the only reason I can see having Bellatrix killing Sirius instead of Voldemort is to bind Neville and Harry by yet another occurance...

I agree. I personally think that he will find a way through others a way to be mildly in control of himself....temporarily. There is no way that Harry, whom is a person who does not forget quickly nor does he like cowardness and evil, is going to let those two deaths just slide by....sooner or later there is going to be some sort of retaliation. As to what form it may take, it's anybodies guess. But seeing as one of the natural ways to extract one's revenge is by using one of the unforgivable curses, I'd say there's a pretty good chance we may hear them from Harry's mouth in the future.
While I know he will eventually get ahold of his emotions regarding this, or atleast supress them, they will be a ticking timebomb... However, Harry let Wormtail go without any retribution... Maybe Harry is just holding Voldemort responsible (like if it wasn't for him, none of this would have happened)

He's got to get over it sooner or later :shrug:
If the person you loved most had died... Would you want to stay in the house that he lived in (and hated...) Wouldn't everything that he saw remind him, wouldn't he kill Kreacher and fulfill his wish of being beheaded??? I think that the only way to prevent Harry from going it alone is to break/bend the rules of the Order and allow Harry to become involved... While it would give him more imformation, atleast he would have the complete story,and we learned what happens when the truth is kept from him... If he was involved, he wouldn't (IMO) be as apt to go off on his own (or with the DA students) and face the Death Eaters on his own... Plus by now he has to have proven that he has faced more than some of the membes have... (Mrs. Weasley couldn't even banish a boggart, how is she going to be able to face death eaters??? Mr. Weasley would be dead if not for Harry... Moody was locked in a trunk, and I believe it was Tonks that was knocked out in the fight with the deatheaters...Hell Neville lasted longer than she did...) Yet because of his age he is restricted??? I think that capabilities should count for more than age...

It is going to be a near impossible feat to turn Harry back into a relatively calm state, unless they turn him into a Neville like person... Hermone and Lupin neither one will be able to do it... I think the person it is going to take is Neville. Having both felt similar pain (pain neither Ron nor Hermoine has ever felt) I believe that those two will become better friends, and if OOTP is any indication of how much Neville can do when his mind is set on it, then he could be a bmf if he really wanted to... In JK's books, everything has a reason, and the only reason I can see having Bellatrix killing Sirius instead of Voldemort is to bind Neville and Harry by yet another occurance...

So do you truly think that the only way Harry is going to be calmed is by killing? I just don't think that's in his nature....I mean he let go the person whom really killed his parents, and was the whole reason he had to be with the dursely's, why sirius was a convict, and so many other factors. I'm not saying that he's going to be totally pacified. He won't. I'm just saying that Hermione and Lupin will at least get him into a functioning state for school. I seriously do believe that he will blow up in some point in time.

While I know he will eventually get ahold of his emotions regarding this, or atleast supress them, they will be a ticking timebomb... However, Harry let Wormtail go without any retribution... Maybe Harry is just holding Voldemort responsible (like if it wasn't for him, none of this would have happened)

I think that once Harry's mind is at least a bit clearer or in his inevitable mind wanderings that are going to happen at the dursely's, he'll come to this conclusion of who is really causing this trouble....voldemort. That realization could possibly set in motion a Harry that we have yet to see. A totally motivated, hard-working, focused, and brilliant Harry who is totally bent on one goal. The destruction of Voldemort. I can really see this. Because at times when we see him concentrate on anything with that intensity so characteristic of him...he get's things done...properly. It would be scary to see him be this way the whole year through and Voldemort definitely holds the incentive for him to do so.

He's got to get over it sooner or later :shrug:

I did not mean it that way. I put that meloncholy smilie there because I meant it in terms of the fact that he can't dwell in dreams. He's got to live too. Plus, him going in a place where sirius once resided, is obviously going to cause him great pain, but if he gets through it, he'll emerge a lot stronger.

I did not mean it that way. I put that meloncholy smilie there because I meant it in terms of the fact that he can't dwell in dreams. He's got to live too. Plus, him going in a place where sirius once resided, is obviously going to cause him great pain, but if he gets through it, he'll emerge a lot stronger.
However, that is what I expect the Prophecy to mean... Both Voldemort and Harry are "living" in a physical sense... Breathing, eating, etc... But neither can "live" figurativelly... Meaning neither can get past thinking about the other... Voldemorts only thought for 14 years was to get his body back andf kill harry... Harry's thought since coming to Hogwarts is to get revenge... I think the dreams are apart of it... Constant reminders of what has happened... (remember in the past, he had dreams about james and lily) The dreams seem to be bringing up the most painful memories in harry's life and replaying them over and over... How could you get past that, if everytime you closed your eyes you saw some one you knew be killed by someone you hated...

However, that is what I expect the Prophecy to mean... Both Voldemort and Harry are "living" in a physical sense... Breathing, eating, etc... But neither can "live" figurativelly... Meaning neither can get past thinking about the other... Voldemorts only thought for 14 years was to get his body back andf kill harry... Harry's thought since coming to Hogwarts is to get revenge... I think the dreams are apart of it... Constant reminders of what has happened... (remember in the past, he had dreams about james and lily) The dreams seem to be bringing up the most painful memories in harry's life and replaying them over and over... How could you get past that, if everytime you closed your eyes you saw some one you knew be killed by someone you hated...

Ahh. I see what you mean...and I like it. I mentioned this as well in the thread concerning the prophecy that they could physically live together, but their consciences won't let them....mentally. Naturally, I was ousted with suprising intesity for their craving for a more dramatic and traditional meaning....however I tend to think this version more so. I'm glad to see someone else sees it this was as well.

By the way, it's been pleasure debating with you. :cool:

defenitly surprizing he resorted to that curse, when he hadn't during the entire battle before..
im afraid that 'he didnt have it in him'(ie not "meaning" it) after his last family member died infront of him? will he have the power in him to kill again?
dang i wanna know what is in that locked room, grrr it holds so many secrets :)

This is one of those "Resistance is useless" deals. The most damage he's ever done to Voldemort has been by surrendering to and/or accepting his own death because he wanted to be reunited to someone he loved. Hey!! That could be part of the answer. Voldemort has been petrified of death for his entire life and has devoted all his power into shielding himself from it. Maybe Harry learning to accept his own mortality is and will continue to be an advantage.

i think harry was really really upset and angry and he just wanted to take his anger out on the person that took his godfather away from him... i prolly would have done the same thing, and i think that he might use more unforgivable curses in future books

I espected to him avada kadavara that woman. but even his crucio didn't work be he 'really didn't wanted her to suffer'!!! disappointing! why didn't he want the woman who had just Killed his godfather to suffer?

Sorry teacup but when I was reading that part for the first time and I saw him say "crucio"...I yelled Y E S !! then after the next line...darn didn't work...lol

It's funny (peculiar - not ha-ha) that Harry let Pettigrew live when he betrayed James and Lily to Voldemort and yet, this man who Harry's known sporadically for almost 2 years has such a place in Harry's heart.

Maybe I have a high moral standard for fictional characters! I still think that using the Cruciatus curse was a horrible thing.

In a real world sense, this is the sort of thing that can put you in juvie - I wonder if Azkaban has a juvenille detention center.

I understand the shock, horror, disbelief, grief, and anger that Harry felt in one fell swoop when Sirius died (it's still really weird to write that).

I can also understand and even approved of Harry chasing after Bellatrix. They did battle, and it was honorable.

But the moment that word left his mouth, he was no better than Bellatrix.

Ever notice how in movies the bad guys like to torture and the good guys prefer a clean kill?

Harry wanted to cause severe pain to a person just cuz he was angry. He didn't use any number of spells (Petrificus Totalus) to stop her.

I've just had another idea. Maybe this rage, anger, capability to hate and hurt is leftover from Voldemort - you know, the transfer thing.

just my 4 knuts!

it would be scary to see Harry get really intense and devoted to killing Voldemort in the same way that it was disturbing to see how quickly Neville was progressing in the DA meetings. Will Harry even be able to live his life if he only dwels on Voldemort? Either way I see him using the crucacius curse again in front of mmbrs of the Order or Hermione

"But the moment that word left his mouth, he was no better than Bellatrix. "
_No_ He would have been had he suceeded in using the curse properly, but he couldn't. The fact that even at the moment when he felt more hatred than he ever had in his life he _still_ didn't have enough cruelty in him to make the curse work shows that Harry has _not_ sunk, and probably won't ever sink, to the level of the Death Eaters. All right, deciding to use the curse in the first place was not a good thing (although it was certainly just) and definitely showed Harry at the darkest we've ever seen him. We also have to remember that the curse caused Bellatrix a certain ammount of pain and knocked her off her feet (not a fraction of what she deserved, to be frank). But nevertheless, that Harry hadn't the cruelty in him to torture someone, _even_under_those_circumstances_, is a positive message and gives us some hope that he won't be corrupted by his experiences.

Filia,

Again I use the gun example. If Harry aimed it at Bella and missed, so what? He tried to shoot her.

Because he hadn't used the the C curse before, he didn't have experience to use it properly. But he was able and willing to use it.

That worries me (In a "I-get-that-it's-fiction" sorta way!) about Harry.

Additionally, he's on 15 and a veritable child still. So maybe his scale of good and evil isn't as fine tuned as the adults of his world.

But, 2 wrongs don't make a right. What if it HAD worked? What if Bellatrix fell to her knees in indescribable pain? Would that have been just? Would that have brought Sirius back? Would it have righted any situation?

No. :no: