Snape and DADA....revisited.

Okay, for once we will no longer argue whether or not he wants it.

We know.

He's applied for it every year for the past 14 or whatever.

So the huge question remains: why won't Dumbledore give it to him???

Some thoughts--

Maybe, although he does trust Snape, he's afraid the Gryffindor classes would turn into grudge matches between disgruntled students and permanently-disgruntled Snape....

Maybe Snape flunked DADA!

Maybe Dumbledore has set some test--such as being able to summon a Patronus--and Snape has never managed to pass it. Hard to believe Lockhart passed any tests, though...

Maybe Snape's lesson plan is too controversial for Dumbles....maybe it involves learning the Dark Arts along with the defense.

Maybe, as many people have suggested, it's close to impossible to find a good Potions teacher? Snape's too valuable to replace? But I don't see Dumbledore as the type to stand the way of Snape's dreams because of something like that.

Sooo....do you think Snape will ever be DADA? I've rather thought he might in Book 6 or 7. (Which would make it easier for McGonagall to get Harry into NEWTS potions class!)

Snape may perhaps get the DADA job after book 6 or 7, but I doubt it'll happen during them. Why? For the simple reason that thus far, the pattarn has been to have a DADA teacher last only a year. While the pattern could change, I doubt it will. That's why I think it'd be after Harry's 7th year, if he in fact would ever get the job.

This was a very interesting revelation in the book for me. I always thought that it was a mistake that JKR overlooked the fact that Snape wants the DATDA job, but she is way too smart to do that. I think that though Dumbledore trusts Snape, he doesn't want him to teach it cuz maybe Snape would accidentally let his true feelings about the topic out and Malfoy would know the truth about him being a spy. He is much safer hating Harry and being nice to Malfoy in a Potions classroom setting.
On the other hand, maybe Dumbledore doesn't think it is a good idea. Harry would probably begin to fail that class, and he needs to be good at it. They need to get Lupin back!

I'm wondering if Dumbledore things Snape couldn't balance his two lives if he taught DADA.

He's a spy in Voldemorts inner circle for Dumbledore. Voldemort won't want him teaching actual defense. He'd put the pressure on for Snape to teach badly and for Snape to convince Voldemort that he is still a death eater Snape would have to show further favouritism to Slytherins while leaving holes where he can in the education.

They're heading into a second war. Something Dumbledore always expected. He won't want any holes in his ex-students education. Especially in regards to the dark arts.

Maybe Dumbledor is afraid that Snape will re-join V. I mean we have not had the greatest luck with DADA teachers *cough Quirrell cough*.

I was convinced that it was just a rumor among students that he actually wanted the job. I was shocked to find out that he did. DD must have a really good reason for not giving him the job. I have no idea what it could be though. He seems qualified. He knows a lot about dark arts and surely their defences. Maybe he is just too good at potions to replace. Although I don't think that DD would have held him back for so long for that reason, especially since it would probably be easier to finad a potions professor than a DADA one these days.

Maybe Dumbledore doesn't want the other three houses to think that he is a Death Eater more than they already do. But I think that Yavanna has a very good point. The Slytherins might see that Snape is good, and it would blow his cover... but then, why would he keep applying?

I would like to see Snape get the DADA job. He wants it so much afterall, and so far JKR has given no reason as to why Dumbledore is keeping it from him.......I hope if there is a reason, it gets revealed though.

It would be interesting to see how Harry would react to having Snape as his DADA teacher....DADA is Harry's best subject, I'm not sure he'd enjoy it as much if it was ruined by Snape (but how could that be worse than it being ruined by Lockhart? or being DESTRYOED by Umbridge?). Would Snape like having Harry being good at his class?

One reason I think is that Snape appears to be exceptionally talented at Potions. In my opinion finding someone who is pretty good at DADA is probably much easier than finding someone who is pretty good at Potions. That said I think that Snape might get the job in Book 7 when Harry has to finally confront and defeat Voldemort.

I don't think Snape will ever be able to be the DADA teacher whilst V is there.

a) DD has to make it look like he doesn't trust Snape
b) He is probably a great Potions Master, even if he's a royal git about it
c) We need a position in the school open so we can have new and interesting characters like Umbridge.

Originally posted by Loz (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=391590#post391590))

b) He is probably a great Potions Master, even if he's a royal git about it


Yeah, that question has kind of been sorted out, too. Snape said of the OWLS that he expected the usual high results. In other words...his students do well on the tests.

But his heart is in DADA, apparently! He would probably be an even better teacher in there....

Do you think it has to do with the Dark Mark and its connection between Snape and Voldemort? Maybe Dumbles is afraid that Voldy could influence or spy on the class, if Snape got too involved with his fun lessons to Occlude him fully?

I am forced to wonder about his qualifications, though, since Dumbledore refused to hire him in the face of having a Ministry troll foisted on them instead.

Snape's job is to hide his emotions in front of the Dark Lord. If somehow Voldy was able to see Snape's thoughts and see he was teaching DADA he'd probably feel betrayed. Snape is probably one of the most complex characters next to Dumbledore. Plus remember that a lot of the Slytherin students have parents who are loyal to Voldemort and I bet their parents ask for info on the insides of Hogwarts.

yeh i agree with you who think snape is too valuable as potions teacher to be DADA teacher. Remember only a few can actually do potions let alone master it.

Here's what has always been my theory on why Snape can't get the position...

Although Dumbledore trusts Snape, perhaps he still thinks that teaching DADA might be too much of a temptation. Sort of like overcoming alcoholism or drug abuse. People might trust that you have overcome it, but that doesn't mean you should go out drinking every night or go buy some heroin or something, otherwise you might get the addiction fired up again. Not saying Snape is "addicted" to the dark arts, but it's the same sort of situation, IMHO. Maybe Dumbledore is afraid he'll rekindle Snape's fire for the dark arts, lead him to return to doing things he might rather not have done, and, thus, endanger the students, the Order, and mankind.

Severus could be as well DADA teacher, but...

Think!
He is Potions Master at this school after all. Who deny he is the best at it?

We learned in this book that Dumbledore does do things for appearances (ignore Harry for most of this book). That would lead me to believe that he keeps Snape on Potions to keep the appearance that he doesn't fully trust Snape. My early thoughts on book 6 are that Snape's cover will be blown and Harry or Dumbledore (I'm thinking Harry) will have to save him. With Snape's cover blown, and the war getting more intense, I think Snape will become the DADA teacher for book 7. Dumbledore will need the best person for the job.

sfaist - nice prediction... in fact, I quite like it.

You're all forgetting number 3 on my list... I mean - perhaps Potions could then be made open, but it isn't as ironic, is it? Or as interesting, to have a new professor who is evil/knows nothing about/lots of things but is a werewolf/has no clue and is a complete nark as it is with DADA.

The best person for the job? So why Dumbledore didn't want THIS particular person- meant Severus of course- in the previous years?

You must know I agree with being Sev best for Defence (he is even "marked" properly...), but... WHY, though? Why it couldn't be earlier? Why Albus Dumbledore was keeping Quirell or Lockhart? Hmm... Let's think- BECAUSE there isn't better Potions Master than Severus Snape and mind you, how can he supposed to take two classes at once?

I don't think the DADA job is about trust of Snape.I believe Snape is doing spy work on the Death Eaters for Dumbldore. So they have to keep the face that Dumbledore doesn't trust Snape do Snape is the loyal Death Eater, as always. Dumbledore has reasons for everything. There must be something we don't know about this.

JKR was asked on the live webcast (I'm listening to it now) and she said that she couldn't tell much without giving plot stuff away, but that Dumbledore was afraid it would bring the worst out in Snape.

Wait a minute, I thought everyone knew Snape was no longer a death eater and was loyal to Dumbeldore. Thye obviously don't know about his connection to Harry, but I don't think Snape would reveal that since he hates Harry so much.

I think (and hope) that Snape will get the job in either book 6 or 7.

I think that Dumbledore wants Snape to remain as potions master because he is so good at it...or something.
But I dont get why he gave the job to Umbridge instead of Snape.

I'm sure Dumbledore isn't like your average muggle boss. If you're too good at your current job you can kiss promotions or different fields goodbye.
He must have his own reasons for not promoting Snape. He told Lupin he didn't care if the parents sent letters so he's probably not worried about them whining a former DE is teaching their kids dark arts.

Snape is a suprem potions teacher (he is one of few wizards who know how to make the wolfsbane potion, i doubt the other qualified wizards would want to be teaching stupid students ;) )
Thats the reason and i think Snape knows this and is content with his position, he just likes to have a reason to dislike the DADA teacher ;)

Whatever the reason we will or will not be told in one of the next books. Maybe during another Pensieve session, who knows....

[an Owl has just dropped a howler on Dumbledores lap...]

I AM SHOCKED THAT YOU HAVE APPOINTED A FORMER DEATHEATER AS THE DENFENCE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS TEACHER, SHAME ON YOU!!

"Uh... attention students, Professor Snape is no-longer a Deatheater so nothing ot worry about there. Just go back and eat your breakfast." says Dumbledore....

Okay that was random. I'm quite confused as to whats happening with this dark arts job. I just wish it could be cleared up soon!

Ok, here is my theory as to why Snape hasn't been given the DADA position yet.

I think that Snape is more valuable in the Potions position but NOT because of his exceptional ability as Potions Master.

I think that because Snape keeps asking for the DADA positon and not getting it gives Snape a place to "hide out" He has gone over to the right side, but Apparently Voldie doesn't know this yet. As long as Snape is teaching potions he's got a level of protection from Voldie. Snape can rant and rave to anyone he wants that DD doesn't trust him enough to give him the DADA position.

He can pick on Harry all he wants and doesn't have to take any blame for Harry learning to defend himself. If Snape had the DADA job, he'd probably be under instructions from Voldie and Co. to make sure that Harry couldn't fight off a mouse.

This way, Harry learns what he needs to learn, and Snape can't be blamed for him learning it.

I think that this is DD's way of doing what he can to protect those he cares about. I think that it hurts Snapes feelings, but I also hope that maybe by book 7 he'll finally get the DADA job he's always wanted.

However, I do think that he's going to have to mellow out some before he gets it. :p Right now if he got the job, he'd probably jinx a student out of sheer frustration. Imagine poor Neville (in books 1 - 4) totally hopeless. Right now as potions master, all he can do is threaten the students with having to drink their own potion, and Madam Pomfrey, can fix almost anything. :clappy:

I think it has something to do with the whole mind reading thing. To close to Voldemort. To dangerous. In any case, I'm sure it has nothing to do with his being good at potions. Other than the wolf abne potion when has Snape been called on to make a really extraordinary potion? It just doesn't seem important enough.

I think that it is perhaps to sheild Servus from Voldemort. I think Dumbledore trusts Snape and knows he won't go to the Dark Side, but perhaps the DADA will leave Snape vulnerable and prone to some sort of attack. Perhahps Dumbledore is trying to cover up his full trust in Snape to more ofa half trust. We'll just have to wait and see.

Originally posted by Shells Bells (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=395952#post395952))
I think that because Snape keeps asking for the DADA positon and not getting it gives Snape a place to "hide out" He has gone over to the right side, but Apparently Voldie doesn't know this yet

Yes he does. At least, that's what I would garner from his words to the inner circle at the end of GoF...about the coward (Karkaroff) and the "one who has left us forever...he will be killed" (Snape). Voldemort is not stupid. He has sources who know of Snape's true status, and Dumbledore testified that Snape was a spy for the light in front of the Wizengamot, so there are a LOT of people who know. It's not a big secret. I'm sure Voldemort has found out one way or another by now.

Perhaps the reason why Harry is not good at Potions is because of the relationship with the teacher (Hate) but harry needs to excel at DADA because of who hates him (voldemort).

In the Royal Albert Hall questions, JKR revealed that DADA would bring out the worst in Snape... is that his loathing of Harry/James

The Webcast interview with Stephen Fry that JKR gave provided an interesting insight into this. I believe that teaching DADA could reawaken a hitherto subverted Darkness that Voldemort tapped into with Snape originally as the webcast illustrates

JACKSON LONG:
Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher. In book five he doesn’t get the job. Why doesn’t Professor Dumbledore let him be the DADA teacher?


JK Rowling:
That is an excellent question and the reason is… I have to be careful… not to say too much. However, when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said he’d like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the worst in Professor Snape, so Dumbledore said: “I think we’ll let you teach potions and see how you get along there.�

I was just reading the transcript for JKR's Albert Hall Q&A session when I came across this interesting bit...

Stephen Fry (heavily paraphrased):
Then there's characters like Snape, who are bad but there is a certain ambiguity about him. You can't quite decide because there's something quite sad about him. Something very lonely. We're slowly (after five books) getting the idea that maybe he is not so bad after all.

JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.


Maybe she's just meaning that he'll continue to be mean to Harry - but there's also this little bit:

JACKSON LONG:
Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher. In book five he doesn't get the job. Why doesn't Professor Dumbledore let him be the DADA teacher?

JK Rowling:
That is an excellent question and the reason is… I have to be careful… not to say too much. However, when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said he'd like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the worst in Professor Snape, so Dumbledore said: "I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get along there."


The link can be found here http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml

For one thing, Voldemort KNOWS that Snape isn't a Deatheater anymore. He says so in the graveyard in GoF.

I just don't understand why Umbridge was a better canidate then Snape.

Yes, WHY that evil woman was better? I think, maybe it was because of Fudge, you know... Perhaps, Dumbledore had no choice?

Well, we know that Dumbledore didn't choose Umbridge to be the teacher. She was assigned the part by the Ministry of Magic because Dumbledore couldn't find a suitable replacement for the DADA position in time.

That being said, I think that he couldn't use Snape because Snape needed to be teaching Potions...for more reasons than one, propbably.

Didn't someone, (Hagrid maybe?) tell the trio that Dumbledore hired Lockheart because no one else applied for the job? I think Snape's frustrated aspirations to DADA are phoney and part of a plan or confustication charm, or something.
Besides, when Dumbledore needs Harry to know something not in curriculum, who does he give the responsibilty of teaching it to him?
Also, when Dumbledore needed to know if Harry could speak parceltongue, he arranged for Snape to help with the dueling club, where Harry also learned disarming charm from ...Snape.

At the Royal Albert Hall event when JKR was asked why Snape has never been given the DADA post she said that she had to be very careful so as not to give something away...

Her anwser (paraphrased):Dumbledore thinks the DADA post will bring out the worst in Snape.

Will this play a large part of the next two books??Why would it bring out the worst in him?was it because he was once a Death Eater?

My fear is he is like an alcoholic and it would be like giving him a drink.

I think he'll get the job next year and fall off the wagon.

Hopefully he'll make it into rehab!

I think he'll get it in the 7th year

Hmm...

But JKR said that DD would never give it to him...i think if he does give it to him he'll start going back to his old ways...

I think that if he were the DADA teacher it would compramise is position as a spy agianst Voldemort. How could someone who teaches to defend against dark arts be a DE. Also, he is a GREAT master of potions, and DD would never give him up as that. I don't think he will every become the DADA teacher.

I think the uniqueness of the DADA job is that it always has a new dude to teach it.. i think JKR will always have it that way in the 7 books...

I miss Lupin, anyone else feel this way? they probally wont bring him back, I dont think Snape will get DADA in 6 although he might......

anyone think Tonks could be a great DADA teacher?

tonks needs to work with OoTP... she is an auror not a teacher.... im sure every auror would be a good teacher... but they have an important job they need to take care of

Yeah, Lupin is one of my fav characters. He is a very caring/understanding person, along with being a killer DADA teacher.

im not sure if he'll ever get it i mean, with him teaching potions and now playing the doube agent role i doubt he'd have time let alone anything else. i think that also i agree with the alcoholic analogy its very true im my opinion. and also i noticed this mention at the Albert Hall too.

Since it was actually mentioned in the book that he had applied for the job regularly leads me to believe that eventually the job will be him.

I don't know the reason that DD won't let him have it. It probably has to do with him being a former DE and being fascinated with Dark Arts as a child.

Maybe he will finally get it when Voldemort is finally defeated.

In the spirit of the "Alcoholic" theory, allow me to expand on that. Let's say that Severus does get the DADA position. Now, to the 6th, or 7th year and assuming he's still the same ol' Snape......

"Silence," said Snape as he entered the classroom. Harry looked over to Ron and Hermione and found they were already looking at him with a look of concern on their faces.
"Potter!"
"Yes sir?"
"Come up here for a moment." Harry, hesitating briefly, stood up and walked to the front of the class, every eye following him.
"Seeing as how Mr. Potter seems naturally gifted in this class," said Snape with an unmistakable smirk on his face, "I thought perhaps we could demonstrate ways to defend against the Unforgivable Curses."
"Professor?" said Hermione with not a little concern in her voice.
Snape ignored her.
"Let's defend against the Cruciatus Curse, Potter," said Snape who looked like Christmas had come early.
"Sir, I don't think that's....."
"CRUCIO!" Harry fell to the floor in pain, as he felt knives that weren't there cut into his flesh, only to leave no mark.
"Potter, that was sorry, even for you. Let's.......try again...."
"No, sir....."
"CRUCIO!"
"CRUCIO!"
"CRUCIO!"
"CRUCIO!"
"Pity, I thought you were MUCH better at this," said Snape as he eyed Harry who lay on the floor in pain.
"Let's try something else.......IMPERIO!"
Although Harry had resisted before, he didn't have the strength to fight it off. Snape's multiple Cruciatus Curses had him thinking of only one thing: Pain.
"Kneel to me Potter....KNEEL!...."

And so on, and so forth. I think Dumbledore has VERY good reasons why he's being hesitant about Severus and the DADA position.

Very good point Baron. Yeah, I don't think Dumbledore would let Snape teach DADA, thank goodness.

I like Lupin a lot too! He's one of the best characters. Him and Dumledore.

JKR said that if Snape got this position it would reveal something. However, she didn't say that it would reveal something to the READER. This could mean it would reveal something to another character in the book, possibly Voldemort or Harry?

This seems to follow along with JKR's logic.

Originally posted by crazytaxi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=399256#post399256))
My fear is he is like an alcoholic and it would be like giving him a drink.

I think he'll get the job next year and fall off the wagon.

Hopefully he'll make it into rehab!


Until JKR reveals why Dumbledore won't give the DADA position to Snape, I also subscribe to the "recovering alcoholic falling off the wagon" theory. But isn't there a sort of contradiction involved?

If Dumbledore won't give Snape the job because he's afraid that teaching *defense* against the dark arts (not even the dark arts themselves) will cause Snape to revert to his evil ways, why is he so confident that Snape is really on the good side?

Wouldn't whatever Snape did (and for whatever reason he did it for) during the first time Voldemort came to power be enough evidence that he isn't evil?

I do not remember the part where they say Snape has actually applied for the job, I just remember Percy, his dumb ***, saying it was common knowledge that he wanted it. I have never gotton the impression that he truly did want the job. I do think that he plays up the fact that he hates Potter, I mean I think he does not like him, but with people like Malfoy there whose father thinks he is a DE, I think that maybe he adds so contempt to it. I remember Malfoy stating that his father respected Snape and held him to the highest accord. I think that Snape is still playing the double role and that maybe Voldemort doesnt know that he is in the Order. Book 4 stated that one of the DE's were at Hogworts, and One was a traitor (Karkaroff) and one he thought may have left him. I think the one a Hogworts was either Crouch Jr, or Malfoy, Sr. I also wonder if the one who has left him forever is Snape. I think that is too easy. I dont think he knows Snape left. I think that Dumbledoor is happy with Snape as a Potions Master and I also think that Snape is a Vampire. Among being a Wonderful Wizard. On top of all that, I wonder if he did not have a thing for Lily Evans?

When Umbridge is inspecting Snape's class she asks if he has applied for the DADA job multiple times. He says he has, but doesn't say why he hasn't gotten the job.

I think the alcoholic theory is probably the best idea we have right now about he Snape hasn't gotten the job.

Originally posted by gryffindordude (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=407792#post407792))
JKR said that if Snape got this position it would reveal something. However, she didn't say that it would reveal something to the READER. This could mean it would reveal something to another character in the book, possibly Voldemort or Harry?

This seems to follow along with JKR's logic.


Wow. Excellent point. That WOULD be just like Rowling, wouldn't it.

I don't think it has anything to do with Snape's past as a DE, or with him "falling off the wagon," so to speak. I mean, think about it. If merely teaching DADA would make Snape revert to his old wild ways, why would DD think it perfectly safe to send him back amongst the DEs as a spy? He would certainly be more tempted to become a DE again if he had to act like one, wouldn't he?

And, honestly, Snape would never torture Harry. At least, not physically. ;)

I think it's possible the DADA position would reveal something damaging TO Snape, as opposed to about him. Perhaps something he doesn't even recall...some hidden memory or trauma, perhaps. As I said on another thread, Dumbledore is not averse to keeping things from people "for their own good."

haha, Baron that was so funny, but seriously, Snape would never be really like that.... Or would he??

Originally posted by crazytaxi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=399256#post399256))
My fear is he is like an alcoholic and it would be like giving him a drink.

I think he'll get the job next year and fall off the wagon.Haha, excellent post! I agree.

Harry did not get an O on his Potions OWL (we can assume), and Snape requires an O for his NEWT Potions classes. Therefore, Harry cannot be an Auror! Unless... Snape stops teacher Potions to do Defense Against the Dark Arts. And the new teacher doesn't require an O so Harry can get in.

Of course, there's a few other possibilities, like Harry just doesn't become an Auror or Snape has to make an exception for Harry.

But if my theory is correct, that Snape switches to DADA, then I bet it'll drive him to... bad things, so in book 7 they will need another DADA teacher.

Just a thought but maybe it isn't common knowledge that Snape is... or rather was a DE. Perhaps DD has reason to believe that Snape will be discovered if he teaches DADA. I might be wrong about that... then again, we know Lupin was a werewolf and had to give up his position for that... maybe there is some truth to Snape being a Vamp... no I can't say it... people might hurt me.

Kinda off topic: Does anyone watch Buffy? Remember in the fourth season when Spike found that ring that allowed him to go into sunlight? It was the gem of Amara or something.

I am uncomfortable with the whole falling off the wagon theory. That would indicate that Dumble dore does not have full confidence in Snape, but why would Dumbledore allow Snape to teach Harry Occulmency if he did not trust Snape completely. If Dumbledore had any misgivings, he would have done it himself one way or another. It would have been too dangerous to put something that important in the hands of someone that is only most likely loyal.
As it turns out Dumblesdore should have had some apprehension, since Harry and Snape's personalities clash too much for it to succeed.

then why did DD let Snape sub DADA when Lupin was 'sick' if it brouht the worst in him or would reveal something....couldn't it happened then...when he was subbing?

Originally posted by Arissya_00 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=409016#post409016))
haha, Baron that was so funny, but seriously, Snape would never be really like that.... Or would he??


You don't think so? I never thought that he would actually attempt him harm either until Harry entered the Pensieve and saw Snape in his weakest, most pathetic moment. Then, Snape pulled him out of it, yelled at him to get out, and threw a potion jar at him. If I remember correctly, Harry had to duck, which means Severus wasn't just throwing it towards him, he was throwing it AT him.

I actually like Severus now. I connected with him a little bit because of the stuff James and Sirius did to him. I don't necessarily think Snape would torture Harry, but in his maniacal obsession for vengeance, he would torture Harry just to torture James.

Then again, perhaps Snape and Harry will set aside their disagreements, and actually get along with each other. I'd kind of like to see that....then again, if Snape didn't pester Harry, who would? Trelawney?

veela - voldemort said something about death eaters at hogwarts. one was still his most loyal (crouch jr.), one was too afraid to return (karkaroff) and one had left him forever (snape).

remember in GoF when sirius says that he didn't think dumbledore would let snape teach if he had ever been a death eater? well, snape obviously was a death eater, but i think that sirius was still mostly correct. i don't think dumbledore would let snape anywhere near his students if he was still a loyal or even semi-loyal death eater (ie if he had said that he was being controlled and hadn't meant any of it). i don't think snape would be teaching anything if dumbledore didn't trust him 100%.

personally, i think that snape is the best man for the job (come on, anyone would have been better than lockhart) simply b/c he was a death eater. who else knows how voldemort really works w/ the death eaters? i think that snape will teach dada in harry's 7th year, when the fight against voldemort is really heating up, and the students will get some really good insights as to what they are fighting.

if snape is anti-dark now, then why is he so smarmy w/ all the slytherins? is it just keeping up appearances?

It could be Being DADA teacher will make Snape show up on minister radar as he is a dead eater. He may have to sac him as he sac lupin.

Originally posted by veela (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=407854#post407854))
I do not remember the part where they say Snape has actually applied for the job, I just remember Percy, his dumb ***, saying it was common knowledge that he wanted it. I have never gotton the impression that he truly did want the job. I do think that he plays up the fact that he hates Potter, I mean I think he does not like him, but with people like Malfoy there whose father thinks he is a DE, I think that maybe he adds so contempt to it. I remember Malfoy stating that his father respected Snape and held him to the highest accord. I think that Snape is still playing the double role and that maybe Voldemort doesnt know that he is in the Order. Book 4 stated that one of the DE's were at Hogworts, and One was a traitor (Karkaroff) and one he thought may have left him. I think the one a Hogworts was either Crouch Jr, or Malfoy, Sr. I also wonder if the one who has left him forever is Snape. I think that is too easy. I dont think he knows Snape left. I think that Dumbledoor is happy with Snape as a Potions Master and I also think that Snape is a Vampire. Among being a Wonderful Wizard. On top of all that, I wonder if he did not have a thing for Lily Evans?


Good point! i think Snape may have had a thing for Lily Evans. As for him teaching DADA...I have no clue what will happen, but I would be a little surprised if Dumbledore gave him the job seeing as I'm not sure Snape is on Dumbledore's good side after not really seeing Harry got proper training in Occlumency.

Okay, this is the actual quote as transcribed by Morgoth:

JACKSON LONG:
Professor Snape has always wanted to be Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher. In book five he doesn’t get the job. Why doesn’t Professor Dumbledore let him be the DADA teacher?


JK Rowling:
That is an excellent question and the reason is… I have to be careful… not to say too much. However, when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said he’d like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the worst in Professor Snape, so Dumbledore said: “I think we’ll let you teach potions and see how you get along there.�


It sounds to me like she is leaving the door open for him to teach DADA. I had always thought that Snape actually wanting the job was just a rumor, so I was very surprised when he admitted that he had applied every year.

Incidentally, Dumbledore must really not want him to have the job (at least not yet) if he was willing to let the Ministry appoint Umbridge rather than let Snape teach it. Aacck.

I get confused by that too. Why not have Snape teach DADA, he couldn't be worse than Umbridge or Lockhart?

This is my idea. Snape said he applied for the job several times. So maybe he hasn't applied lately. He might have an agreement wtih Dumbleodre that he cannot teach DADA while Harry is at school, for whatever reason, and that after he will be able to.

I don't have my book with me, but didn't he admit that he has applied every year? Can anyone look up the exact quote?

I just noticed that there is a very good thread about this here:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11453

Maybe the mods can combine?

Frankly, JK's "explanation" baffles the hell out of me.

If Dumbledore's afraid merely TEACHING Defense Against the Dark Arts would bring out "the worst" in Snape, why was/is he perfectly comfortable sending Snape out to spy on the Death Eaters, walk amongst them, even act as one of them? I mean, what could be more tempting than that?

To borrow Dog Star's alcoholic analogy, the first thing AA tells an alcoholic or drug addict is to cut ties with all the people in their lives who indulge in the very behaviors the alcoholic/addict is trying to stop. But Dumbledore seems to be saying, "Sure, Severus, go hang out with your mates at the bar all night if you want to...but whatever you do, DON'T run any AA meetings. I'll get some incompetent idiot to do that."

Huh? :??:

I think Dumbledore keeps the job away from him. Thinking that giving the job to him would be like giving a recovering alcoholic a fifth of whiskey for his birthday.

But... perhaps if Snape gets the job finally, McGonagal could take his spot as potions master, giving Harry that extra edge at becoming an auror. Dumbledore could go back to transfiguration.

That is only an asinine theory that may never come true.

i think jrk explained this a bit by saying that DD thought it would 'bring out the worst in him' and i really do have to agree with her on that. you think he's bad in potions, imagine him in a class he's passionate about? where you use wands! i dunno if i trust snape...and going into curses and whatnot with him...and his past...i dunno. i'm not one to judge, but...it seems shady. and obviously DD avoided it for a reason. i would like to know exactly why, though!!!

I don't think Snape is actually 'spying'. Well not properly. I think he's more or less getting on the good side of Lucious so as to gather important information.
You know, I bet Lucious will probably 'pretend' that he thinks Sev is on their side... then hand him over to Voldemort as the traitor he is.
That would suck greatly mind you... but it'll be good angst to read :D .

there is some great stuff here about why Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA job. I want to tackle the will he give it to him in book 6 or 7 question: imagine Harry getting his O.W.L. results in July. He only makes an E in Potions. He thinks, well, maybe I can't be an auror, but at least I don't have to deal with old Snape anymore. He gets back to Hogwarts and lo and behold, Snape is the DADA teacher and we have a new Potions teacher who only requires an "E" mark for N.E.W.T. potions classes. Then think of the potential for DADA classes: Snape obviously knows his stuff (Snape came into Hogwarts knowing more dark magic than most 7th years; also look at his Legilimency skills and how easily he penetrated Harry's mind), but Harry is pretty good at DADA - think of how they could goad eachother in class, push eachother to real extremes, much more than they have ever been able to do in Potions.

Originally posted by FredRocksMySocks (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=436477#post436477))
i think jrk explained this a bit by saying that DD thought it would 'bring out the worst in him' and i really do have to agree with her on that. you think he's bad in potions, imagine him in a class he's passionate about?


Well, I'll just bring up a teacher I had for 7th and 8th grade.....7th grade Civics was one of the worst classes to go to, because this teacher was nasty, sharp, harsh, rude, and generally Snape-like.

She turned out to be my home-room teacher in 8th grade, which I was NOT looking forward to. But she did a complete personality swap over the summer, and we were stunned to find her an excellent teacher, enthusiastic and easy-going. She taught history to the 8th graders.

Turned out that she loved History and HATED teaching Civics.

So, I'm not saying Snape's general personality is going to go through any major change, but that teaching the class he wants (instead of the one he's forced to take) might make major improvements in his attitude. People who are happy themselves tend to be a lot easier on others.

Phoenixsong, I'm hoping that will happen, too. :) Only, now Harry has decided to hate Snape more than ever. Could be an interesting plot if Harry and the other Gryffindors try to sabotage Snape as DADA, just when he starts to act human.

I must admit that I am a very bad tempered teacher when I have to teachcomputing and PSHEC (that's British for shouldn't-we-all-just-get-along-be-proud-of-the-things-we-can-do-and-not-take-any-drugs-thank-you-very-much), but I'm very friendly when teaching science....because I like science! (Could you tell I don't like PSHEC? ;) )

If you listen to the web cast (and not read the paraphrased version) I think you can hear JKR saying:

"I can't say too much...that would give too much away about the n-...about books 6 and 7." I swear she was going to say "the next book", but stopped herself. So, will Snape be the DADA in book 6?

And I loved Severly Snapped comment. It would seem a little strange that something as innocuous as teaching a bunch of children how to block a hex could make a man like Snape go crazy. Still, maybe it would be the last straw...to be faced with Harry Potter....wand in hand...

At *** Albert Hall, JKR's whole reaction to Snape was interesting in fact. Although she said not to think him too nice she talked about him in a very different way than Draco. She seemed truly alarmed that kids liked Draco, and even perhaps a bit annoyed that he was played by such a good looking kid in the films. However, when talking about Snape, she called him 'old Severus' in a tone that seemed like she liked him. I know I've read somewhere that she likes writing him because ' he's so nasty' (or something like that) but is there another reason. In some ways you could see him as the underdog (and she loves underdogs), but he's gone a bit bad!

I'm tired...maybe this is wishful thinking. :)

ok someone has perhaps posted this but i didn't feel lie reading the whole two pages so...JK said herself that Dumbledore didn't put Snape for DADA position because he was afraid it will bring the worst out of him.

Come on...let's face it, Harry has to be an Auror. He may die before he graduates...but still I think he has to train for it. And the fact he needs an O in his Potions OWL for Snape to teach him, which is never going to happen, makes me think that maybe Snape will be the new DADA teacher. Harry'll get an O in DADA so he'll be able to take that class, but he also needs to take Potions and Snape changing jobs seems to be the only way.

Unless Dumbledore manages to wangle Harry a place in Potions because he'd make such a great Auror with his DADA talent.

Originally posted by Oddfellow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=436314#post436314))
I think Dumbledore keeps the job away from him. Thinking that giving the job to him would be like giving a recovering alcoholic a fifth of whiskey for his birthday.

But wouldn't asking him to pose as a Death Eater (14 years ago, I'm talking) do the exact same thing, only ten times worse?

Nope; I'm not buying it. There's something specific to that class, or the teaching of it, and Snape's personal history. But I'll be butched if I can figure out what it is.

Maybe Dumbledore is worried about Snape's highly competitive nature...that when he's throwing curses at Gryffindors to teach them to block, he'll forget he isn't supposed to be winning the 'duel.'

Or maybe it's something like Dumbledore not looking at Harry in Book 5....the Dark Mark might be dangerous for some reason, if Voldemort can detect that Snape is throwing Dark curses around the school.....

The continual references, throughout the series, to Snapes ambition to teach DADA, I'm sure is a build up to him actually realising his ambition. Also in the only possible clue that JK has so far given to book 6 (Albert Hall webcast) we are led to believe that Harry's choice of NEWT subjects will be relevant to the plot.

I suspect that what will emerge is that over the summer, Harry will learn that he has failed to reach the required top grade in his Potions OWL. Although dissapointed (because this would affect his career choice) he will be relieved that he will no longer have to suffer being taught by Snape, will have passed his DADA OWL with flying colours, and will return to Hogwarts to find that he will study DADA NEWT under Snape. A new potions teacher will be in place who will accept Harry with a lower grade than Snape would otherwise have done. (Note the ficker of a smile by McGonagal when she impresses upon Harry how essential Potions will be for Auror work)

I don't think the smile had anything to do with long-range plans, just that McGonagall was amused by the expression of horror which must have appeared on Harry's face when he discovered he needed to study Potions for two more years. :p

But, yeah, I hope you're right about Snape getting DADA next year.

May be the minister do not want Snape to teach DADA? After all, he is a DE. It is possible he get sac like Lupin.

What I'd love to see is Snape's reaction to a new Potions teacher. Grumbling about messing up his lab, inferior teaching, hopeless discipline etc etc etc. It would be great if the new teacher was really good, because it would only irritate him further. And of course all the school would prefer the new one.

Great comedy potential. :)

Originally posted by crazytaxi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=441229#post441229))
What I'd love to see is Snape's reaction to a new Potions teacher. Grumbling about messing up his lab, inferior teaching, hopeless discipline etc etc etc. It would be great if the new teacher was really good, because it would only irritate him further. And of course all the school would prefer the new one.

Great comedy potential. :)


:lol:

I can just see the old control freak dropping into the Potions lab in the middle of class to 'borrow a cup of beetle eyes' and nosing into how everything's going...

Okaaaaaayyyyy......

Don't kill me for this, now.....

Maybe Snape really DOESN'T want DADA after all. :D

No, listen, though! When Umbridge turned up, her obvious goal was to get rid of Dumbledore and everybody loyal to him....which is why she did 'exhaustive background checks' on everybody.

Dumbledore knew his obviously loyal staff was in trouble, and they needed somebody to kiss up and stay close to Umbridge, so they could keep an ear in on the ministry's plans.

Snape was the obvious choice. And what would make Umbridge view him as an ally against Dumbledore more than thinking Snape had a grudge against Dumbledore?

Why not make use of the student rumor to plant the idea in Umbridge's mind that Snape had reason to be upset with his current position under Dumbledore?

Whahahahaa! A monkey wrench of doubt thrown into the theory works....

Now, just gotta figure out how JKR's Albert Hall comments fit in...

Not a bad theory.

But don't you think we would have heard somthing about them being together at some point if Snape was trying to be her "ally".

I do like the idea that he doesn't actually want the position though. I always liked the idea that this was just a student rumor.

I'm going to merge this thread ("Snape and the DADA teacher's post") with the one that Jessica mentioned earlier (titled "Snape and DADA. . . revisited" (Thanks for spotting it!)). :)

I found it weird that Dumbledore would rather hire Umbridge than Snape when everyone who talked to her for five minutes could tell that she would abuse a possition of authority (at least, I think they could all tell that).

The best I can come up with myself is that maybe DD figured that if Fudge wanted to get someone inside the school, he'd find a way to do it so why not just get it over with. Also, DD had faith that the ministry would (in the near future) be forced to see that he was right all along - just his bad luck that conflicts always seem to come to a head at the end of the year rather than the beginning. :)

Or maybe he didn't want to give Snape the job only to try to oust him from it at the first opportunity.

I don't know how Voldemort could NOT know Snape has switched sides by now (especially considering he lived, unknown, in the back of Quirrel's head for a year) but the fact that his little speach about his deatheaters (in GoF) was worded so ambiguously makes me suspicious.

I forget who said it, but I like the polyjuice theory.

Dumbledore didn;t hire Umbridge, though...the Ministry forced him to take her, since he hadn;t found a 'qualified person' for the job yet. Gotta wonder if Dumbledore had anyone else in mind before they threw her at them.

This is kinda off topic on what you guys are discussing here, but I was reading through and wanted to make a real quick comment.
think of how they could goad eachother in class, push eachother to real extremes, much more than they have ever been able to do in Potions.
In that aspect, not necessarily with the goading, I think that Snape would make a good DADA teacher. Yes, I know all the other reasons, but I esp. like the fact that as a former DE he knows what they're up against--sort of like having an anti-Auror in the position. Moody's opposite, if you will. And the fact that, while Harry would probably hate it as it would mean seriously hard work and challenge in something he is quite accomplished in already, and he'd have to work hard to keep up that accomplishment, Snape pushing Harry to the limits could be unbelievable beneficial to Harry and his fight against Voldie. The class would be a nightmore, I am sure, but I really do think he'd come off better because of how hard he had to work, how hard he was drilled and because all of this drilling was preparing him for something that is a serious matter to Harry.
The only drawback is that he starts to hate the class and loses interest, but that didn't happen with Umbridge, did it. And at least Snape would teach, he wouldn't be useless....

Inkwolf: You know, I was assuming that he was working with the advance knowledge that Fudge would force Umbridge on him if he couldn't find anyone else, but, now that you mention it, they might have just sprung it on him. That changes things...

OK, some said this earlier, but I just reread CoS, and Hagrid said that Lockhart got the job because he was the only one who applied. Now, why would Dumbledore hire Lockhart over Snape (who maybe didn't apply, but lets it be known to Dumbledore that he will take it anytime)? Because of Snapes relationship to Harry? Maybe Harry would not be as good at the Dark Arts if Snape taught it and its the most important thing to wizardingkind that Harry is good at it???

I made a thread but was referred here so here it is:

OK so reading through posts this idea came to me. What if Dumbledore either knew or was told through prophecy or something that Harry was destined to be great with DADA and the perfect selection for a DADA teacher. James could have even held that position before which is why Snape was denied and is also another reason why Snape hates James and Harry. He has always hated Harry, what if it was because Harry is the reason Snape is not a DADA teacher. This also would be a reason to keep the Potters jobs a secret and makes them prime candidates for the first Order and why they were so close to Dumbledore. Feel free to poke holes in my theory or add new ideas, just something I'm tossing around.

I also find the idea that Snape will become DADA teacher next year so Harry can continue his auror training very plausible. Now I'm torn and dont know which one I like better so tell me what you think.

I think that Snape will become the DADA teacher in book 7, but not book 6.... That would be the kind of thing JKR would do, I think. He's been wanting it for... ever so.... :) That's really all I have to say.... :shrug:

Come on...let's face it, Harry has to be an Auror. He may die before he graduates...but still I think he has to train for it. And the fact he needs an O in his Potions OWL for Snape to teach him, which is never going to happen, makes me think that maybe Snape will be the new DADA teacher. Harry'll get an O in DADA so he'll be able to take that class, but he also needs to take Potions and Snape changing jobs seems to be the only way.

Unless Dumbledore manages to wangle Harry a place in Potions because he'd make such a great Auror with his DADA talent.

Hi...I just drank a whole lot of champagne so forgive my spelling errors. Happy New Year everybody. Bonne Annee.

So why do you say, Harry will never get an O in his Potions OWL? A couple of points here:

1) Snape does not mark the OWL potion exams.

2) Snape is an excellent Potions teacher. Recall when umbridege inspected the class, and said, "The class is advanced for their age."

I think Harry will get an O in Potions. Snape is the only person saying that Harry is bad in Potions. that way, he will continue to study potions under Snape.

I'm afraid that we may see Snape get the DADA position in book 7 just before he dies in an attempt to protect either Dumbledore or Harry, or both.
I'd be glad to be proven wrong however.

Barbara, you're so evil.

I sort of hope Snape gets the DADA job after Voldemort has been defeated, but there's something deliciously cruel in me that hopes he will be lumped with Potions forever.

Why thank you Loz, I take that as a compliment, most of us in here do, don't we? :evil:

I know what you mean about hoping to always see him as THE Potions Master.

Thank you for resurrecting this thread, Barbara. After my drunken post on New Year's, I thought I'd scared everybody off.

He'll always be the Potions Master, and in the 7th book we'll find out why.

In the spirit of the "Alcoholic" theory, allow me to expand on that. Let's say that Severus does get the DADA position. Now, to the 6th, or 7th year and assuming he's still the same ol' Snape......

"Silence," said Snape as he entered the classroom. Harry looked over to Ron and Hermione and found they were already looking at him with a look of concern on their faces.
"Potter!"
"Yes sir?"
"Come up here for a moment." Harry, hesitating briefly, stood up and walked to the front of the class, every eye following him.
"Seeing as how Mr. Potter seems naturally gifted in this class," said Snape with an unmistakable smirk on his face, "I thought perhaps we could demonstrate ways to defend against the Unforgivable Curses."
"Professor?" said Hermione with not a little concern in her voice.
Snape ignored her.
"Let's defend against the Cruciatus Curse, Potter," said Snape who looked like Christmas had come early.
"Sir, I don't think that's....."
"CRUCIO!" Harry fell to the floor in pain, as he felt knives that weren't there cut into his flesh, only to leave no mark.
"Potter, that was sorry, even for you. Let's.......try again...."
"No, sir....."
"CRUCIO!"
"CRUCIO!"
"CRUCIO!"
"CRUCIO!"
"Pity, I thought you were MUCH better at this," said Snape as he eyed Harry who lay on the floor in pain.
"Let's try something else.......IMPERIO!"
Although Harry had resisted before, he didn't have the strength to fight it off. Snape's multiple Cruciatus Curses had him thinking of only one thing: Pain.
"Kneel to me Potter....KNEEL!...."

And so on, and so forth. I think Dumbledore has VERY good reasons why he's being hesitant about Severus and the DADA position.


Har! :p I actually tend to think the same way. Not that Snape would actually harm Harry, but when JKR says it would bring out the worst in Snape, I think she means it would give him even more power as a teacher to abuse - not lead him back to Voldemort.

We know that JKR views Snape as an abusive teacher. When Crouch is disguised as Moody, someone says something jokingly about him "searching all the professor's rooms" as part of his position. I can't point you to the exact page right now, but my sense was that the DADA professor has a lot of free reign in the school - much more than your average potions professor. Snape is fairly abusive to students as it is - can you imagine how he would be if he had even more power to do as he pleased around the school in the name of defense? I think he would make life miserable for the students and teachers (in the most entertaining to read about way, but still . . .).

I also don't think JKR means that it will lead him back to to be an evil servant of Voldermort b/c: a) wasn't Voldie was gone when Snape would have gotten the job?; and b) the first thing you think when JKR says "it would bring out the worst in him" is "that means Snape is really on Voldie's side," and I don't think JKR would ever give us such a huge hint as to what is actually going to be revealed in the next books.

Not to say there aren't reasons Snape shouldn't teach DADA, but Moody/Crouch said what he did was "Auror's privilege."

Yeah, I tend to think fake Moody has as much leeway as he did because he used to be an Auror, and he was Dumbledore's good buddy, so DD would be inclined to think of him as maybe being a little over zealous, but meaning well.

I'm not sure what it would bring out in him. I think Snape can be quite vindictive. He takes some pleasure maybe in seeing people get hurt other than himself, so if he had the students practicing spells on each other... well, now that I think about this, maybe some evidence for this comes from the duelling scene in CoS, where not only does he really, really enjoy showing off about his duelling skill but he also coaxes Draco into showing off on his behalf. I'm not sure exactly how, but I think that might relate to why he shouldn't be teaching DADA.

i agree with everyone who said snape will be the DADA teacher in the 7th book...

also doesnt potter only need 5 NEWTs? McGonall was only suggesting what classes he should take it in, now what he had to take... its not necessary he takes it in there... and plus i doubt Harry would pick a class with Snape on purpose even if he gets an O..

lol just read that dialogue if Snape was DADA... :)

I think it has more to do with Ellen's theory about Snape behaving the way he does to provide a smoke screen if Voldemort or any of his minions use legilemency. And Draco will need to go home and report to dad how awful Snape is to all the other houses, and particularly to Gryffindors.
Perhaps he can be most nasty and least dangerous in the potions position.

The post above gives a good idea what could happen if Snape had to maintain his smokescreen while teaching DADA.

My guess is that applying for the position and being annually denied is also part of the charade for Voldemort's benefit.

I don't think Snape will become a DADA in book six, he already proved he held grudges against Harry with occulency (spelling?). So maybe he won't even have a job in the next one because of that, I doubt it tho, probably stay in Potions.
Person I think will be the DADA teacher in book six is Kingsley, he is an auror so he knows his stuff. Plus he was leading the search for Sirius, but now that Sirius is dead, he doesn't have a job. Also, he is a member of the order and could keep an eye on Harry as well as teach him things Auror's know.


btw- Hi all

Kingsley would be a good candidate for the DADA postition. I don't see Snape getting that one until at least Voldemort is gone. I believe that Dumbledore feels it is safest to keep him away just incase he gets pulled into the Dark Arts again. I don't think we will really find out Dumbledores reason until close to the end however.

I am uncomfortable with the whole falling off the wagon theory. That would indicate that Dumble dore does not have full confidence in Snape, but why would Dumbledore allow Snape to teach Harry Occulmency if he did not trust Snape completely.

I agree. I'm thinking specifically of the moment when Dumbledore tells Harry, simply, that he trusts Snape. Granted, Dumbledore is more trusting than the average person and seems to go out of his way to give second chances to people on the fringes of society like Hagrid and Lupin, but it seems that when Dumbledore does decide to trust someone he has a very good reason for it. There's something we haven't been told yet about what happened when Snape first came to Dumbledore, or perhaps in the time since then. But apparently, Snape is trustworthy.

I also think Dumbledore has been denying Snape the DADA post because DADA may be dangerous in his hands (even JKR said so once, I think). But I also think Dumbledore may have so much trouble in finding a new DADA teacher for next year that he'll have to hire him as such.

What's the point in denying him the post Snape wants every year, if we can't see the reason why Dumbledore does it? I'm eager to see Snape as DADA teacher. I really want it! :lol:

The only reason he was like that in PoA was because he was trying to clue them in to what Prof. Lupin really was. His intentions weren't to accurately teach them what they needed to know, he was doing that for his own selfish reasons. He knew that being a professor of DADA wasn't going to last so it wasn't like it was gonna be beneficial to be a good teacher. Besides, I'm sure at some points in the book we have questioned DD's judgement although we hate to admit it....and it may not have been til the end of book 5 when we started thinking...woah, he can make mistakes. I personally think that he would have a really good reason if he puts Snape there. He wouldn't do anything without justification.

This topic is the most interesting one yet!

Ahem... Anyways, maybe it's because Dumbledore's afraid that Snape will have really tough lessons. You know, like Durmstrang, where they learn all about the Dark Arts instead of just being educated on the defenses against it.

Maybe he's afraid that Snape might still be a supporter of the Dark Lord... perhaps he's put Snape under the Imperius Curse in secret and he thinks that letting Snape get too cozy with the Dark Arts again is dangerous!

OOH! OOH! Maybe he used a Memory Charm on Snape years ago, but his temper and coldness resurfaced! And then his passion for the Dark Arts returned again! Well, that doesn't explain how Snape knows so much about the Dark Arts if that Memory Charm is still alive and kicking...

Or perhaps he just doesn't want Snape to be happy... maybe he just wants him to be a cold, bitter man with a disregard for human life.

I think it would just give him too much "power" in the oddest sense of the word. I mean he has power as a teacher, but to give him control of the class that is the most essential would be dangerous. Considering where he came from of course, and what he overcame....or still dealing with. I just think that he will go other places besides choosing Snape. I mean Lupin is still available and i've voiced my opinion on that earlier in this thread or in another one I can't remember, but anyways I'm done.

The only reason he was like that in PoA was because he was trying to clue them in to what Prof. Lupin really was. His intentions weren't to accurately teach them what they needed to know, he was doing that for his own selfish reasons.

That's still pretty troubling, though. I love Snape to death, but even I'll admit that he can be very blind in his rage, and he did some very irrational things because of the intensity of his hatred for Lupin. That's a serious character flaw, and probably not one you'd want in a DADA teacher.

Besides, I'm sure at some points in the book we have questioned DD's judgement although we hate to admit it....and it may not have been til the end of book 5 when we started thinking...woah, he can make mistakes.

It wasn't until the end of OotP that Harry got to be old enough that he went through that crisis everyone experiences at some point when growing up, the realization that adults you once looked up to and believed could protect you from anything are in fact as falliable as anyone else. Because the books are written from Harry's point of view, Dumbledore wasn't explicitly presented as falliable until Harry got to that point in his life. We've seen DD made mistakes before, though. It's a bit shocking that he didn't realize for an entire year that his friend Moody was in fact not Moody. It's also not clear how much he knew about what was going on with Quirrell. But none of those mistakes Dumbledore made were errors of trust, per se. I'd imagine most of the people he's given second chances to, including Snape, have to be highly grateful to him and highly loyal. Snape is clearly very loyal to DD - note the way Dumbledore could keep him in line at the Christmas dinner in PoA. All Dumbledore has to do is ask for something, and Snape will do it.

I get the impression that both advanced Dark Arts and advanced DADA depend pretty much of the state of mind of the spellcaster.

The basis of Dark Arts seems to be a negative state of mind, i.e. evil intent. The Unforgivables are obviously powerful Dark spells, and in order to cast them you have to really mean them, evil included (certainly Crucio; probably Imperio and Avada Kedavra too). According to the Harry Potter Lexicon even Dark Creatures are distinguished from other Magical Creatures by their evil intent (such as redcaps, vampires, and at full moon werewolves).

DADA, on the other hand, seems to be based on a positive state of mind. Against boggarts you need a mental image that makes you laugh. The Patronus is a powerful spell, but you need a happy thought to cast it. Maybe it's similar for other advanced DADA spells.

As for Snape, according to Sirius he was very skilled at Dark Arts as a first-year already (wonder why, maybe as self-defence in an awful home?), and became a Death Eater later. Yet he did work hard for his DADA OWL (lots of tiny writing on his parchment in the Pensieve scene), and he's been after the DADA post for 15 years now. But while Dumbledore trusts him even as an ex-DE, he keeps denying that job to him.

In this context I find Snape's relationship with Lucius intriguing. Draco, Sirius, and Umbridge seem to believe that Snape is really chummy with Lucius, Lucius speaks highly of him, he's Lucius' "lapdog" etc. We haven't seen Snape's own view on it, but he doesn't do anything to discourage the notion. Yet Lucius is a leading Voldemort supporter, and Snape is a turncoat spy and covertly protects Harry. I find it hard to see an actual friendship under these circumstances... maybe it was once, but since Lucius doesn't seem to share Snape's spy status, it seems more probable that at least from Snape's side that friendship is currently faked. Another "smoke screen", as whizbang called it. It isn't really said so in canon, but it does make sense. Hatred and/or revenge (for whatever evil deed done to him) would be another good reason for Snape to keep pursuing his acitivities against his former friend(s), but too Dark an emotion for Dumbledore to allow him to use it to teach DADA.

But I don't think that Snape will be denied the DADA job forever. JKR's words "Dumbledore feared it would bring out the worst in him" gave me the impression that it wasn't a real jinx but rather a temporary denial (which has admittedly taken many years so far), and I feel Dumbledore filled the post for only a year each time in order to re-evaluate Snape's suitability on a regular basis. So far Snape doesn't seem to have met the requirements yet, poor guy... But he does have valuable inside knowledge, so I trust he will eventually meet the requirements and get the job. In book 7 at the latest. :)

(Shameless plug: A suggestion for Snape's turning is featured in my fic "The Red Light of the Sun" (www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=24950). :D )

Anyone think that maybe Snape jinxed the DADA position?

And Harry's run-in with the pensieve, seeing Snape's worst memory...If I was Harry, I would blackmail Snape with it, so he treats me and my friends nicely in potions.

If Dumbledore saw the improved behavior, maybe he would give the position to Snape in book 7.

The best way to fight a Death Eater is probably to use their own weapons against them. Dumbledore should know that.

Have faith in JK.

I have thought that maybe Snape had something to do with the jinxing of the DADA post, and that's one of the reasons why DD won't give it to him. Though maybe all the emphasis on how much Snape wants the job means that he will get it eventually.

What's potions without Snape, though?

Good Point. Perhaps Jo has a good character she'll appoint to the position. I can imagine Snape befriending them too, if they appreciate the art to his satisfaction. All the same, there would be a new teacher at Hogwarts. Exciting stuff...M.3, B.6!

I still stand by the old theory that even though Dumbledore trusts Snape, he still fears that the DADA position might be just a little too tempting. It's easy to fall back into old habits when the opportunity to do them is readily presented to you, whether it's smoking, or performing unforgivable curses. ;) He may also fear that putting Snape in the DADA position will leave Snape too vulnerable to Voldemort. There are many options for why Dumbledore won't offer Snape the position, but I'm sure he has a perfectly good reason. :)

I think Snape is still too emotionally unstable concerning Dark Arts and his past to teach DADA.

I think its because snape being a former death eater is the reason he is not allowed the DADA position...he knows too much and Dumbledore doesnt want him to leak experiences Snape had as a Death Eater to the students nor does he want kids to see snape do a cool curse or something and make them aspire to become a death eater

I have just read through all the posts on this thread and a few things have popped into my mind that I would like to add.

Firstly in answer to the why hire Umbridge question? A lot of people have pointed out that she was pretty much foisted on the school. But I also think that even if Snape had been given the DADA job it would have just meant that the Ministry Spy would be in the Potions Class position. Like others here I think that Snape is great at this job and I think that it would be far more difficult to fill this post than DADA. Plus it would have been more difficult for Dumbledore to keep an eye on Umbridge if he also had to make sure that Snape was doing okay in his new position. With Voldemort just returned he really would not have had the time to babysit more teachers than he had to.

Another thing that sprang to mind is that perhaps Snape is no good at DADA *ducks flying objects* My basis for this is that although it has been said many times that he is into the dark arts and knew lots of curses etc that does not mean he is any good at defending himself against them. The Pensieve scene springs to mind.

Yes he wrote a lot on his exam paper but did he actually pass? I know people who have written a lot of stuff for exams but failed to answer the actual questions properly. Who is to say that Snape didn't get answer that question about werewolves entirely wrong....instead of the signs identifying them he may have written a foot long essay on the ways to kill them for example.

Just a thought that perhaps knowing the dark arts is not enough to be able to teach the defence of them.

I was one of the people who, until the Umbridge monitoring his class scene, thought that his wanting the job was just a rumour too.

I know that someone posted that in CoS it said that Lockhart was the only one who had applied for the job that year. I have just re-read the Umbridge scene and Snape said that yes he had applied for the job regularly since he had been refused the position when he first joined the staff. Regularly may not be even year...every other year, every three years even. Perhaps this was merely one of the years that he didn't bother.

I did think that he would get the post in book seven until seeing the posts here detailing how JKR nearly said "next book" (assuming that is what she was about to say). Maybe he will get the job in book six and fall off of the wagon as it were. But be finally redeemed in book seven when he ends up back teaching potions again. I really hope he is not killed off.

Ok, here is my two cents.

Snape was once a death eater, so he obviously skilled in the dark arts. He knows how LV works, and may have learned a thing or two from him. Since Snape is a spy, he needs to make sure he is fully trusted by the other DE's and LV. Do you think LV would be a little uncomfortable if one of his DE's was teaching DEFENSE against the dark arts? I mean, than Snape might be teaching Hogwarts ways to defend LV. Maybe Dumbledore thinks its best to keep Snape away from being associated with the dark arts?

DD has said that it bring the worst out of Snape if Snape had the DADA job. But I really would like to see him have it. I mean, I think Harry could learn a lot from him and this time he could get "remedial DADA" where instead of going over class work, he could learn more advanced defense techniques without being obvious. People would just think he can't handle Snapes class and that he's failing which has proved not to bother Harry because it happend with Potions and Occlumency. I also think this would give Harry AND Neville a chance to excell in Potions because they'd have a new teacher.

he knows the DA better than anyone, he knows best how to get around them, and he knows voldermonts tricks bettter, he is the perfect person to teach now.

ok i said all this is a recent thread, but it was closed so i'm going to repeat myself. the kryle has already heard me say this, but.. ya

Dumbledore believes that this job will bring out the worst in him.

For example: Snape is like a recovering alcoholic and the DADA job is like putting him in a bar and telling him "Don't drink any alcohol". Would he really be able to resist drinking? maybe maybe not. I don't think that that is a risk dumbledore is willing to take though.

I believe that Dumbledore does trust Severus, but not his self control to resume the dark arts area.

Big mysterie to me...only thing I can think of is that's he's afraid Snape will get all into Dark Arts and stuff again and wonder off.. But he's letting him spy and has said "I trust Serverus Snape" alsmost as many times as we've heard "You have you mother's eyes". I can't figure it out.

While it seems that Snape has wanted the Dark Arts position for some time, one reason DD may have witheld the position from Snape for the past five years is that it has been an essential class for Harry. Snape demonstrated in OOTP that even when he means well (grudgingly obliges DD by teaching Harry occlumency) he cannot control his negative feelings toward Harry and it impacts on his ability to teach Harry. Even though Snape knew how important it was to teach Harry occlumency, when he quit teaching Harry it appears he did not inform DD. So while Snape wants the Dark Arts position, it seems DD has been right to keep him from it. I am interested to see if Snape, before the end of the series, can get past these old demons and finally get the job . . . or will getting past the demons mean he will not covet the job anymore?

Although I can't account for why Dumbledore withheld the job from Snape the past five years, I do think that either in the 6th or 7th book he will let Snape teach them DADA. Although he is no doubt resentful towards harry, he is also very intelligent, and will most likely be able to teach the students a lot about the dark arts.
Also, I might just be hoping, but I've always felt that under all the bitter resentment, Snape wasn't as bad of a person as everyone made him out to be. Definitely in OoTP, JK showed some explanation for his current bitter anger...his being teased by those at school (in the pensieve), and his unhappy childhood at home with his parents(when they were practicing occlumency). Once again, I may just be hoping, but with the coming events of the war, I think Snape's resentment will lessen, he will teach DADA, and things between harry and him will be a little better (even if its not much).

My theory: Dumbledore keeps Snape in potions because Snape can do both jobs. Dumbledore knows (as we have seen) that Voldemort will attempt to work his plots through the dark arts teacher. Dumbledore has hired some spectacularly crummy ones. Maybe he's saying, OK, Voldemort, bring it on and I and Snape over here will watching you. Snape is constantly suspicious and sniffing out trouble with the DA teachers.

Firstly, not to shoot down any of your ideas but:

Maybe Snape flunked DADA! - If he was immersed in Dark Arts, he would learn how to Defend himself as well. It an occupational Hazard.

And of course, my ideas, I think Dumbledore may offer it in Book 6, if he does, Snape may turn it down and or something, but that would mean he has a heart, so rule that out. NO, I think he may be OFFERED in Book 6, as a, if we can't find a DADA and can find a Potions, you can be DADA.. Or given in Book 7. Not sure on that

Teaching students how to defend themselves against the same Dark Arts that death eaters proliferate, would out him rather quickly as a spy, no?

Perhaps as trustin as Dumbledore is there are some things Dumbledore himself cannot heal, such as a deed Snape did

I think while Snape knew more curses while he attended Hogwarts than most seven years he is and was better at making and teaching potions than using and teaching the dark arts and Dumbledore knows that, he would rather have a good potions teacher than a bad one.

well we all know the he used to be a death eater so he must know alot of advanced magic. so dumbledore might be scared that they will get taught dangerous magic

I've been thinking about this for quite a while and I think I have it figured out. Albus doesn't let him teach because it would expose things about him that must be kept secret. In all the books the DADA teacher have their secrets exposed. Not only that, they all seem to have either a direct or indirect Voldemort connection. Lockhart, Lupin, and Umbridge have indirect connections. Umbridge sent the Dementors after Harry who are now probably working for Voldemort. Lupin obviously is working against Voldemort and Lockhart almost had an encounter with him.

Now onto Occlumency. I read on a messageboard that Severus calling Voldemort The Dark Lord in the first Occlumency lesson was a bit odd. I reread the section a few times and something interesting occured to me. I think Severus suspected that Voldemort was listening in through Harry. First off, Harry asks him why does Albus thinks he needs to learn how to defend his mind. Then Snape just sits for a moment and stares intently at him then answers and in that answer he calls Voldemort The Dark Lord. Right from the beginning he's suspicious and subtlely confirms his allegiance to him by calling him by that title. And from that time on, he continues to call him that.

Harry later asks him once again why he has to learn this skill after Snape has told him that the castle is very well guarded to ensure mental and bodily safety. An odd question to ask considering all that he's been told (read the entire scene). Snape once again pauses and tells him that the headmaster wishes Harry to be taught by him. In other words saying to Voldemort, if he's listening, that teaching Harry was strictly Albus' idea. It continues on like that even to the point where Snape shouts at Harry not to say Voldemort's name. Perhaps that shout is his way of confirming also that he fears him and acknowledges his power.

To me, in this encounter before they actually start practicing, Snape is almost completely convinced that Voldemort is listening. Not only that, the fact that Albus never looks Harry in the eye backs up this theory. No one is sure when he's watching so no one takes chances. What is also interesting to me is that Albus won't look at him at all but Severus will. Could this suggest that his skill in Occlumency is higher than Albus'?

Another interesting aspect of Severus comes from a memory Harry accessed from his mind during an Occlumency lesson. Harry saw him as a teenager shooting flies with his wand in his room in the dark. At first, I thought nothing of it but then I read that scene again and it struck me as interesting. Could Severus be something else besides human? To me, this scene says that he has night vision. It didn't say it was partially dark, just dark. Also, Snape spends a lot of time in dark areas and if he is something else more, this could also be why Albus won't let him teach DADA because his secret could be exposed. In the latest HP movie when Snape catches Harry in the halls after hours and has the encounter with Lupin there, afterwards he walks away with his wand lit. But before he leaves the scene, he turns it out and turns the corner in total darkness.

Something else interesting comes from Snape's memory. It mentions that Harry's father is 15 but says about Snape, "So Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry's own age." This is after Harry finds out that they are taking the O.W.L.s in DADA. Could this suggest that Snape repeated a year? Perhaps not since we know that he was very intelligent and knew more than most 7th years when he was a student. So could this mean that he was 14, since it does say "around Harry's own age." "around" being the operative word here.

As far as the prophecy goes, I've been having second thoughts about this. I've been thinking that it's not Harry who is to defeat Voldemort. First off, it doesn't say what year this person was born. It just says he approaches. Not only that, July isn't the true 7th month, it's actually September. Septem means seven and September is the 7th month of the ancient Roman year, which began with March. Also, it wouldn't surprise me that it's not Harry because so far Rowling has never come out and said that he's the "Chosen One". We've only assumed that he his and in book 2 Voldemort says that he doesn't have any extraordinary magical talent. Also, Harry's survival as a baby is due to ancient magic, not his own so we aren't completely sure what he's capable of. Another reason I think it's probably not him is because Rowling is just really good at surprise endings. Right when you think you have something figured out, she comes up with a major twist.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

peace!

I was actually thinking about that Harry might not be the chosen one because of the prophecy not saying the year.Who knows maybe the Half Blood Prince might be the chosen one but then again it says the person will defy him more than his parents have.That is a good theory but I don't believe that Snape is anything apart from Full Human.Or he could be half troll lol.

wow, that's quite a theory...i really agree with the whole exposing secrets part because of snape's past and how he woulnd't want that exposed...i was just thinking...ok you know how snape put some of his memories in the pensieve? well isn't it possible that one of them was one of snape interacting with voldemort? and being a DE and such? that would have been an interesting memory for harry to visit! good thing for snape that harry didn't see THAT memory! imagine how MAD snape would have been if harry had seen that! :wow:

Here is what JKR has to say about why Snape didn't get the DADA job. (Bolding will be mine)

JL: Prof Snape has always wanted to be the defence against the dark arts
teacher. In book 5 he still doesn't get the job Why does Professor
Dumbledore not allow him to be the defence against the dark arts teacher?

SF: There

JKR: <sighs> That is an excellent question and the reason is that, I have to
be careful what I say here, the reason is that to answer it fully would give
and awful lot away about the remaining two books but when Professor
Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd
like to teach defence against the darks arts please and Professor Dumbledore
felt that that might bring out the worst in Professor Snape
<laughs> Somewhat
JKR: So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get
along there

My opinion on Snape not teaching DADA is that the job's cursed. Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to leave the school or something bad happen to him because he obviously needs him for something. I dunno, that's just what I always thought...

well, it´s an interesting theory, but there are so many about Snape... I just don´t know which to believe... There are some very good ones here http://www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse.html

the thing about his seeing so well in darkness is interesting as well, but I don´t think he´s part vampire or anything ( and half Troll!!!!! )

I think the reason Snape doesn't teach DADA is because DD is worried about Snape turning back to the Dark Arts....I always thought of it similar to an addiction (sort of Buffy"esque") and that DD wanted to keep him away from temptation.

I do like the idea that using the Occlumency lessonsSnape confirmed his allegance to LV with his answers to Harry's questions and the reaction to Harry's saying "Voldemort" was a lot like Bellatrix's...so we know that the DEs all don't say his name.

Now after reading your theory about the prophecy, the one thing that stuck in my mind is the "dark lord will mark him as equal" I stated thinking about the dark mark ... but what gets me is that the prophecy says that "he will be born to those who have thrice defied him" so I don't think it could be Snape.

oh and about the seeing in the dark - that's a good pickup...would seem that he might have some other interesting power? He also slams all the windows shut when teaching Lupin's class

Now onto Occlumency. I read on a messageboard that Severus calling Voldemort The Dark Lord in the first Occlumency lesson was a bit odd. I reread the section a few times and something interesting occured to me. I think Severus suspected that Voldemort was listening in through Harry. First off, Harry asks him why does Albus thinks he needs to learn how to defend his mind. Then Snape just sits for a moment and stares intently at him then answers and in that answer he calls Voldemort The Dark Lord. Right from the beginning he's suspicious and subtlely confirms his allegiance to him by calling him by that title. And from that time on, he continues to call him that.

Harry later asks him once again why he has to learn this skill after Snape has told him that the castle is very well guarded to ensure mental and bodily safety. An odd question to ask considering all that he's been told (read the entire scene). Snape once again pauses and tells him that the headmaster wishes Harry to be taught by him. In other words saying to Voldemort, if he's listening, that teaching Harry was strictly Albus' idea. It continues on like that even to the point where Snape shouts at Harry not to say Voldemort's name. Perhaps that shout is his way of confirming also that he fears him and acknowledges his power.

Another interesting aspect of Severus comes from a memory Harry accessed from his mind during an Occlumency lesson. Harry saw him as a teenager shooting flies with his wand in his room in the dark. At first, I thought nothing of it but then I read that scene again and it struck me as interesting. Could Severus be something else besides human? To me, this scene says that he has night vision. It didn't say it was partially dark, just dark. Also, Snape spends a lot of time in dark areas and if he is something else more, this could also be why Albus won't let him teach DADA because his secret could be exposed. In the latest HP movie when Snape catches Harry in the halls after hours and has the encounter with Lupin there, afterwards he walks away with his wand lit. But before he leaves the scene, he turns it out and turns the corner in total darkness.

Something else interesting comes from Snape's memory. It mentions that Harry's father is 15 but says about Snape, "So Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry's own age." This is after Harry finds out that they are taking the O.W.L.s in DADA. Could this suggest that Snape repeated a year? Perhaps not since we know that he was very intelligent and knew more than most 7th years when he was a student. So could this mean that he was 14, since it does say "around Harry's own age." "around" being the operative word here.

As far as the prophecy goes, I've been having second thoughts about this. I've been thinking that it's not Harry who is to defeat Voldemort. First off, it doesn't say what year this person was born. It just says he approaches. Not only that, July isn't the true 7th month, it's actually September. Septem means seven and September is the 7th month of the ancient Roman year, which began with March. Also, it wouldn't surprise me that it's not Harry because so far Rowling has never come out and said that he's the "Chosen One". We've only assumed that he his and in book 2 Voldemort says that he doesn't have any extraordinary magical talent. Also, Harry's survival as a baby is due to ancient magic, not his own so we aren't completely sure what he's capable of. Another reason I think it's probably not him is because Rowling is just really good at surprise endings. Right when you think you have something figured out, she comes up with a major twist.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

peace!

For the first underlined bit...
I don't think Snape suspected that Voldemort was listening to their entire converstation through Harry. I think the only reason Snape calls Lord Voldemort 'The Dark Lord' is because it has been shall we say burned into him. The name Lord Voldemort strikes fear into almost any person who hears or says it. The name 'The Dark Lord' is another way to say the name that increases that increases the fear and shows respect. (Is this making sense...Sorry if it isn't! :) )

For the second underlined bit...
I think Harry asked again to get a better detailed explanation than he did the first time. Not because Lord Voldemort wanted to know. Snapes first explanation just told him he needed to learn Occlumency because of Lord Voldemort.

For the third underlined bit...
This has been debated many a times, and I think Snape is just plain human. You mentioned him liking the darker places...Well I prefer the dark as well..And last time I checked...I was fully human! :) With the third Harry Potter movie...I think he turned out the light from his wand to close the scene.

For the forth underlined bit...
I don't think Snape had failed a grade, or skipped up one. I think the way it's phrased in the book tells us that Harry doesn't know when Snape's birtday is.

I hope some of my answers helped! :)

I like your idea that Snape might have thought that LV was listening through Harry. I hadn't thought of it before, but its entirely plausible.

As for Snape not being human-I don't think the scene you pointed out is solid evidence of it. I think JKR confirmed that he is not a vampire (correct me if she hasn't confirmed that!), so what are you suggesting that he is?

I also don't think that he skipped a grade or was held back, Harry was just guessing that a fifth year would be fifteen or sixteen. Even if he was a different age, I don't see how it would be important.

Thats my two cents...

storm580, I like your theories about Voldemort being able to access Harry's mind during his Occlumency lessons with Snape, but I'm not sure if I'm interpreting what you mean correctly. You said that Snape can't be the DADA teacher because it will ultimately reveal his secrets (like it has for all five previous DADA professors), but is his communicating with Voldemort via Harry's mind supposed to reaffirm his allegiance to Voldemort (i.e. a bad thing), or give the illusion of reaffirming his allegiance to Voldemort (i.e. a good thing)?

I had never really thought about his communication with Voldemort until reading your post, and after thought it was entirely possible. But now that I'm aware of the things you mentioned, it seems to me that Snape is reliving his "spy" status in the Order, acting like he has an allegiance to Voldemort when he really is working for the Order. That's how I interpret him making all those subtle statements for Voldemort to see.

But how do you see it? Are you interpreting it as Snape communicating with Voldemort as a Death Eater stationed within Hogwarts?

Regardless, you brought up some interesting points! :)


As far as the prophecy goes, I've been having second thoughts about this. I've been thinking that it's not Harry who is to defeat Voldemort. First off, it doesn't say what year this person was born. It just says he approaches. Not only that, July isn't the true 7th month, it's actually September. Septem means seven and September is the 7th month of the ancient Roman year, which began with March. But it's not like Trelawney made her prophecy living in Ancient Rome and under that calendar; she made the prophecy in modern times under the modern calendar. The name "September" may mean "seventh month" historically, but according to the calendar they use (which they've used for centuries), the seventh month is July. {That being said, do we know any students who were born at the end of September?}

I think Hermione's birthday is the 22nd of september or something close to that, but she's nearly a year older than Harry, so she would have already been born (probably, depending on when the prophecy was made) before the prophecy was made. Also, her parents never defied LV three times, unless there's something we just don't know about them...

Another thing could be that perhaps he knew that Snape would have the reaction he has with Harry. And that is the last thing that he wanted done to Harry in the most essential class. Dumbledore knew the prophecy, and he knew that it would have to be Harry that would kill the Dark Lord, and if Snape treated Harry as he does in Potions, then what would become of his advancement in his defense.

It is rather interesting though how the position has been left where "noone would take the job" as it was "cursed" but that each and every addition has taught Harry his essential skills that have gotten him out of each mess.

Quirrel while a stuttering fool did teach Harry some important skills, and it brought the three friends close together.
Lockhart while a complete fool, taught Harry to be independent and look out for himself which served him well in the Chamber.
Lupin taught the class the most Dark Arts ever, and trained Harry with the Patronus Charm which has gotten him out of many sticky situations.
Pseudo-Moody trained Harry against the first of the two Unforgiveable curses, and taught him the third, which he did not know about until that point.
Umbridge, reinstated Harry's importance on independence, and grew within him a new resolve to train himself, and his friends in defense, something that even Lockhart's foolishness didn't accomplish.

For a position that has been given to people because there were no other options, it has been very interesting how each position has helped Harry immensely.

It's interesting that JKR stated that DADA job could bring out the worst in Snape. Notice that the only time Snape acted as the DADA teacher, he decided to unveil Lupin's secret in a subtle way. Maybe there is some power associated with being the DADA teacher. Also notice that both Dumbledore (current headmaster) and McGonagal (next headmaster) are Transfiguration teachers... which seems weird as Dark Arts might be a more important job. Another weird thing was in CoS when Snape told Draco to conjure a snake while he and Harry were duelling. I was confused at that part.. was that an 'evil' slipup on Snape's part?

Man.. I'm still thinking of weird theories.. will post them soon..

when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd like to teach defence against the darks arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that that might bring out the worst in Professor Snape

Anyone else feel like that may hold a hidden meaning? :huh: Maybe him being around the Dark Arts will trigger something in him that will, as you all have put it, 'reveal his secrets'?
I mean, she DID say that if she said the wrong things, then it would be a dead giveaway with the next books, right? So, that could easily mean that Snape has a hidden secret, that only Dumbledore knows about.

That pretty much means that Snape has a BIG role in the upcoming books too :eyebrows:

:rotfl:

Also, about the whole prophecy. Dumbledore HAS kept information away from Harry before, right? So, he could have easily left out that Snape's birthdate is the same as Harry's, for his own sake (Or at least Dumbledore thought).

Besides, the whole Snape/Harry/Lupin meeting in the hall never happened in the book, and the directer/ script writer never got the hidden information from the future books to do that on purpose.

Another weird thing was in CoS when Snape told Draco to conjure a snake while he and Harry were duelling. I was confused at that part.. was that an 'evil' slipup on Snape's part?

I... was not aware that Snape said ANYTHING to Draco, besides calling him up, and motioning him over. Other than that, he did not say anything. O.o

I... was not aware that Snape said ANYTHING to Draco, besides calling him up, and motioning him over. Other than that, he did not say anything.

Cos p. 193 AmPBEd.
"Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down, and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked, too."


I reread the section a few times and something interesting occured to me. I think Severus suspected that Voldemort was listening in through Harry. First off, Harry asks him why does Albus thinks he needs to learn how to defend his mind. Then Snape just sits for a moment and stares intently at him then answers and in that answer he calls Voldemort The Dark Lord. Right from the beginning he's suspicious and subtlely confirms his allegiance to him by calling him by that title. And from that time on, he continues to call him that.

yay, i noticed that too. i was actually rereading it just last night and it hit me like a ton of bricks. the small pauses, the smooth answers. i love that scene and i agree with you 5200%.
i like the idea of DADA revealing the secrets snape and dumbledore have been so keen to keep, but i'm not sure i believe it yet.
i definately DON'T think that snape didn't get the job because dumbledore believed harry wouldn't get taught properly. lots of DADA teachers didn't teach properly. besides, prior to harry's first year, i get the impression that DD didn't think snape/harry would be as much of a problem as it turns out to be. something he says at the end of PS/SS... don't have my book near me now. PLUS if dumbledore was too worried about this dynamic, he would've had to have found a substitute occlumency teacher. nothing was more important than harry learning occlumency, even DADA, so why would DD use that logic with DADA and not occlu-thing?

On the issue of Snape being something more than human, I don't know what he could be. If he is something more, it could've been hinted at in one of the earlier books and we've just overlooked it. Also, the way Snape handles the Occlumency lesson, I think he's actually a spy for Albus but he makes Voldemort think he's still loyal and continues to spy for him. Not only that, his skill in Occlumency makes him a perfect spy. Obviously, Voldemort has mastered Legilimency but I think he's not good enough. If he were, he would've exposed Snape ages ago. That's why he's managed to survive so many years and not be exposed as a traitor. Like Lupin said in OoTP, Snape is a superb Occlumens.

That also tells me that he could possibly be the one to defeat Voldemort. Albus mentions in the Prophecy chapter of OoTP that Harry has defied him 4 times, using this as proof of Harry being the one the Prophecy is speaking of. But Snape has been defying him for years. By simply turning his back on the Deatheaters and Voldemort. He defies him by working for the Order, spying and doing whatever else he does to help in the fight against him. If anyone suspects him, they have no proof of where his loyalties lie.

Not only that we find out in OoTP that Snape started working at Hogwarts 14 years ago. This is told in the chapter when Umbridge is observing his class. Anyway, this means that the 15th year was when Voldemort fell. The Prophecy was told nearly 16 years ago and it says the one to defeat him approaches. So I'm thinking that after Albus hears the Prophecy, Snape switches sides and works for him. Then Harry is born in that 15th year, Voldemort falls and the Deatheaters are rounded up. Snape is defended by Albus and ends up teaching the very next year. And the "power the Dark Lord knows not" could possibly be his superb Occlumency skills. After all, he hasn't been caught.

wow, that's quite a theory...i really agree with the whole exposing secrets part because of snape's past and how he woulnd't want that exposed...i was just thinking...ok you know how snape put some of his memories in the pensieve? well isn't it possible that one of them was one of snape interacting with voldemort? and being a DE and such? that would have been an interesting memory for harry to visit! good thing for snape that harry didn't see THAT memory! imagine how MAD snape would have been if harry had seen that! :wow:

that just got me thinking...snape's worst memory couldn't possibly be that day of exams when he get teased. when he was almost lured into the whomping willow must have been worse. and more importantly, some DE memories must be REALLY worse. it's a horrifying job, all the DEs are scared of voldemort. it was bad enough that snape switched sides (if we are to trust his innocence). killing people,destroying the wizarding community must have had its effect on his conscience and sense of self. it really would be a trip if harry saw a memory of Snape doing some DE stuff. that schoolyard teasing would seem like nothing in comparison.

on the topic of snape's worst memory: i still wonder what the other two memories he put in the pensieve were. but lately i've been wondering if snape put that particular memory in there for harry's benefit, knowing that harry wouldnt be able to pass up an opportunity to check it out if left alone. and furthermore, i wonder if he put that memory in last (or first, not sure how the whole pensieve thing works) in order to ensure that that's the one that harry would see if he did sneak a peek instead of the other two more serious and damaging ones?
i have to say, i like snape better and better as a character all the time. he has a rather vicious subtley about him.

Snape and DADA... revisited (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11453&page=5&pp=30&highlight=DADA)

How many other professors are capable of occlumency/legilimency? Why Snape? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22591&highlight=occlumency)

Legilimency and Occlumency (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18425&page=5&pp=30&highlight=occlumency)

Snape Uncovered During Occlumency Lesson? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22121&highlight=occlumency)

the prophecy - the signfiicance of when (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28844&highlight=prophecy)

the prophecy - its impact, meaning, and importance (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20643&highlight=prophecy)

the prophecy and how JK worded it carefully (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=25048&highlight=prophecy)

Snape, a vampire? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31470&highlight=vampire)


It'd be a shame if this thread is closed because it's already growing considerably quick and a lot of people would lose some thread counts, but these are all of the threads that these could have gone under...

It's best to split up your theories into different threads or look for the threads to put them under... sometimes too many theories on one thread on different subjects can be too much to handle at once...

however if it is kept open, then these can be used for reference, :) I find it helps me.

just remember to do a search (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php?) next time

I think I remember reading somewhere that Snape is a "Trollimagus" - a troll that disguises itself as a human.... Wait... Maybe I just imagined that.

Anyway, I don't actually recall the books saying that Lily and James defied Voldemort 3 times either, or at least it didn't say what the 3 times were. It is possible that the "Chosen One" could be someone else.

No, somewhere in OotP it says that of all the kids born in July, only Neville and Harry met both conditions to be possibilities: that they were born at the end of July, and that their parents had both defied Voldemort three times (I don't have the book on me, I can't find the reference). We don't get specifics on when / how they thrice denied Voldemort, but I assume that might come in a later book.

Yes, I just found the quote. Dumbledore says "both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times" so it is clear that Dumbledore and the person who changed the label on the prophecy feel like that qualifies Harry.

Now onto Occlumency. I read on a messageboard that Severus calling Voldemort The Dark Lord in the first Occlumency lesson was a bit odd. I reread the section a few times and something interesting occured to me. I think Severus suspected that Voldemort was listening in through Harry. First off, Harry asks him why does Albus thinks he needs to learn how to defend his mind. Then Snape just sits for a moment and stares intently at him then answers and in that answer he calls Voldemort The Dark Lord. Right from the beginning he's suspicious and subtlely confirms his allegiance to him by calling him by that title. And from that time on, he continues to call him that.

Harry later asks him once again why he has to learn this skill after Snape has told him that the castle is very well guarded to ensure mental and bodily safety. An odd question to ask considering all that he's been told (read the entire scene). Snape once again pauses and tells him that the headmaster wishes Harry to be taught by him. In other words saying to Voldemort, if he's listening, that teaching Harry was strictly Albus' idea. It continues on like that even to the point where Snape shouts at Harry not to say Voldemort's name. Perhaps that shout is his way of confirming also that he fears him and acknowledges his power.

To me, in this encounter before they actually start practicing, Snape is almost completely convinced that Voldemort is listening. Not only that, the fact that Albus never looks Harry in the eye backs up this theory. No one is sure when he's watching so no one takes chances. What is also interesting to me is that Albus won't look at him at all but Severus will. Could this suggest that his skill in Occlumency is higher than Albus'?

I absolutely agree that Snape knows Voldemort is listening or perhaps seeing. We know that something "Flares up" in Harry when he finally looks into Dumbledore's eyes, and that has to be the connection with Voldemort. I've thought for a long, long time that Snape, because he is already "marked" as a DE, is very vulnerable when Harry is around. I think there are two things going on. Each of them makes the other one have "scar" pain. So Snape isn't looking forward to Occlumency because he knows he will cause Harry pain, and he will be in pain, and they will both be more vulnerable to the Dark Lord.

One clue that DE's cause eachother pain is in GoF. When Harry is trapped invisibly on the stairs, he sees Snape talking to fake Moody. Then Snape grabs his left arm all of a sudden because of a pain, and then he looks angry with himself. That is because he doesn't realize Fake Moody is really DE Barty Crouch, JR. So Snape thinks he is being "buzzed" by Voldemort, when really his scar is hurting because Fake Moody/DE Barty is right beside him. It is similar to when looking at Quirrel makes Harry's scar hurt in Book 1.


I think Snape is as human as Harry. I've seen nothing to show otherwise. He may be able to transfigure in some way, but I don't think he is anything but a human. In the Pensieve scene, Snape is described as "stringy" and "like a plant that has grown out of the light." That implies that someone may have kept him hidden away or locked up. I think we will find out why in the future.

As far as the prophecy goes, I've been having second thoughts about this. I've been thinking that it's not Harry who is to defeat Voldemort. First off, it doesn't say what year this person was born. It just says he approaches. Not only that, July isn't the true 7th month, it's actually September. Septem means seven and September is the 7th month of the ancient Roman year, which began with March. Also, it wouldn't surprise me that it's not Harry because so far Rowling has never come out and said that he's the "Chosen One". We've only assumed that he his and in book 2 Voldemort says that he doesn't have any extraordinary magical talent. Also, Harry's survival as a baby is due to ancient magic, not his own so we aren't completely sure what he's capable of. Another reason I think it's probably not him is because Rowling is just really good at surprise endings. Right when you think you have something figured out, she comes up with a major twist.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.peace!

Well, that is a great point about Septem and seven! And remember, too, about Snape's name - Severus. That is like Septimus Severus the Emperor of Rome. His coins used to show the head of Severus on one side and the goddess of wisdom, Minerva, on the other side, along with an owl. I just love that!

Then again, we only got a few glimpses at Snape's past. There is really no telling hether or not Snape's parents did or did not defy Voldemort in some way. There are quite a few ways that this could work out. Nor does it say when it happened. And if so, why would Snape join forces with Voldemort if he had something against his parents?

Maybe, Voldy took Snape in, and 'raised' him like his own son, and Snape, just like in an abusive relationship, felt the need to be around Voldy, the feeling of *need* for his 'fatherly love', which no one else showed him. Maybe Snape is so... eh... 'Depressed' and 'Unliked' because he held himself away from everyone else, because Voldemort made him believe that no one else could ever care for him or like him.

But then of course, he is raised as a DE, taught the Dark Arts, which Voldemort would of course encurage, so, when he went to Hogwarts, he already was skilled in the DA, and learned as much as he could to please his master. Later, met up somehow with Dumbledore, and saw the care that Dumbledore showed him, and helped him and whatnot. -Gave him a job and such as a teacher, and showed Snape what Voldemort was doing and had done to him, brain washed him and such.

Maybe he takes out his anger on kids, because they remind him of his childhood? All those hateful memories and such flooding back to him? So as a quiet way of revenge, Snape helps out Dumbledure to secretly bring down Voldermort. Of course, still feeling a want to be near Voldemort, to 'need' it, seeks out to teach DADA (The closest thing to being near Voldy).

Though, Dumbledore fears that if Snape teaches DADA, then his being near magic and being able to use it on students (For their learning purposes, of course) will trigger his hateful memories (His Hate/love thingy with Voldy(( And his being reminded of his childhood b the kids being there))) may 'Trigger' something within him that may make him actually hurt someone. And also, causing suspsions among the students (Mainly Harry and the other two), and Dumbledore could be hiding all this information, so that they won't question, and so that he won't have to answer them.

Like, maybe as said before, if hes hiding something about Snape, like that his birthday is also the same as Harry's, then Maybe there is something that he does not want to be known.

Maybe its because Voldemort can look through harry, and get the information that Harry is getting, and if Voldemort finds out all about Snape, then Snape is done for, and same for the so'called prophetic person who is part of the prophecy.

Or maybe, Dumbledore is missing something as well, or he knows (Either way) -Voldy knows that Snape could possibly be his downfall, so he did what he did in my above theory, to prevent him from doing anything, to feel anything but unbreakable loyalty to himself, then, of course, he went after Potter, to kill him, because he also knew it could be him.

Of course, Dumbledore could not talk to harry about Snape and all, because Voldemort may get the information and use it, if he did not already know all about it.

Wow... that is the most I have written on a topic, thena gain, its more of a fanfic :rotfl: Yea, thats just my little idea... er... big :p

Lemme guess, you all think I'm insane, right? :cool:

Merging with: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11453 .

Please conduct a search (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php) before starting a new thread.

Thanks!

I think its because Snape is a really good potions master and will be very hard to replace or I think this seems to make sense the most that Snape is a spy for the order and finding out everything that Voldemort is planning and if Snape gives up his job as the potions masterand takes on defence against the dark arts without telling voldemort why. He would be really cross because Snape might loose his touch for potions and voldemort might need potions. Dumbledore also wouldn't want Snape doing the Job because if Voldemort found out he would probably try and kill him then that would leave Dumbledore trying to find a knew spy for the order. Perhaps he might get it after book seven though because Voldemort might be dead then. :clap:

I think its because Snape is a really good potions master and will be very hard to replace or I think this seems to make sense the most that Snape is a spy for the order and finding out everything that Voldemort is planning and if Snape gives up his job as the potions masterand takes on defence against the dark arts without telling voldemort why. He would be really cross because Snape might loose his touch for potions and voldemort might need potions. Dumbledore also wouldn't want Snape doing the Job because if Voldemort found out he would probably try and kill him then that would leave Dumbledore trying to find a knew spy for the order. Perhaps he might get it after book seven though because Voldemort might be dead then. :clap:

I think that he hasn't gotten it yet because of your first reason about being good at potions. But, if he has put potions second in his life how good must he be at DADA, or just too good at DA. If LV needed snape for potions where was he in GoF when Pettigrew and LV made a really duffucult potion. Since we have had bad DADA teachers before why would LV care what he taught them

Actually, we have no evidence that Snape ever applied for the DADA job. He had no reason to blow his cover to Umbridge (who probably got her info from Draco). In CoS, Hagrid tells us that Gilderoy Lockhart was the only one who applied for the job (though Hagrid does tend to exaggerate). So did Snape skip applying that year? Is he lying to Umbridge in OP?

We find out in PS/SS through Percy that Snape "fancies the Dark Arts", not that he wants the DADA teaching post.
In CoS, Hagrid tells us that only Gilderoy applied for the job.
In PoA Snape does teach DADA, filling in for Lupin. I was not impressed with the job he did, were you?
In GoF a Death Eater taught the class and I think this is the year our trio learned the most about DADA....Even if they thought an Auror was doing the teaching.
In OotP Snape admits he has applied for the job "regularly"--but we really don't know if that means every year....Or even if he is telling Umbridge the truth....

I dont think that snape will get the job in the next two years, i think that it will keep going on like having a different D.A.D.A teacher every year. But I dont know why dumbledore wont give it to him... i mean hes not that great of a potions teacher is he? But maybe he'll become the d.a.d.a teaher after harry leaves? idk

Snape isn't that great of a potions teacher because he is biased but he is a great potions master he is one of few people that could brew the wolfsbane potion for lupin in PoA.

I don't think snape was lying to Umbridge he would have no reason to. I think she checked with dd or at least she said she would. Maybe he didn't apply officially. Maybe dd wouldn't accept his application due to the fact that there is no other potions master

Snape had plenty of reasons to lie to Umbridge (I suspect he lied about having no more Veritaserum, for instance). Members of the Order (and even many students) were well aware of her connections to the Ministry and there is some reason for letting everyone believe that Snape wants the DADA job. Remember, Voldemort has his spies in/at the Ministry (McNair and Malfoy come to mind and Sirius calls Snape Malfoy's "lapdog").

Actually, we have no evidence that Snape ever applied for the DADA job. He had no reason to blow his cover to Umbridge (who probably got her info from Draco). In CoS, Hagrid tells us that Gilderoy Lockhart was the only one who applied for the job (though Hagrid does tend to exaggerate). So did Snape skip applying that year? Is he lying to Umbridge in OP?

We find out in PS/SS through Percy that Snape "fancies the Dark Arts", not that he wants the DADA teaching post.
In CoS, Hagrid tells us that only Gilderoy applied for the job.
In PoA Snape does teach DADA, filling in for Lupin. I was not impressed with the job he did, were you?
In GoF a Death Eater taught the class and I think this is the year our trio learned the most about DADA....Even if they thought an Auror was doing the teaching.
In OotP Snape admits he has applied for the job "regularly"--but we really don't know if that means every year....Or even if he is telling Umbridge the truth....

Will you believe he asked for the job if it came right from JKR's mouth? :D
JL: Prof Snape has always wanted to be the defense against the dark arts
teacher. In book 5 he still doesn't get the job Why does Professor
Dumbledore not allow him to be the defense against the dark arts teacher?
SF: There
JKR: <sighs> That is an excellent question and the reason is that, I have to
be careful what I say here, the reason is that to answer it fully would give
and awful lot away about the remaining two books but when Professor
Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd
like to teach defense against the darks arts please and Professor Dumbledore
felt that that might bring out the worst in Professor Snape
<laughs> Somewhat
JKR: So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get
along there

(Bolding my own)

He did originally apply for the DADA job when he first got hired on at Hogwarts. I don't think he has to 'apply' for the job each and every year. I imagine that DD just KNOWS he wants the job, and consciously denies it to him each and every year. Of course, the second part is just my opinion, but he definitely DID apply for the job.

Thanks, Atherella! I haven't read all the interviews, obviously.
Guess I should have taken Hagrid's word for it when he said Gilderoy was "the on'y one for the job", rather than interpreting it to mean Gilderoy was the only one who applied for the job....Sorry. Hagrid does seem to exaggerate.

I really think Snape will be the next DADA teacher...

There is no way in the world Harry will be allowed in Snapes advanced potions lessons, but Harry really needs this class to become an Auror. Dumbledore knows this so he will try to find a way for Harry to take this class.

The only way for Harry to take advanced potions is that there will be a new teacher, hence Snape has to take another class.

I alsoi think it will be to obvious to introduce yet another new character as the new DADA teacher. We have seen this the last five books, and I think I won't be able to take that story yet another year...

It is possible that McGonagall would tutor/teach Harry potions--she did offer to do whatever it took to make Harry an auror....Yes, I know it sounded more like she just wanted to spite DU, but I think she would keep her word if Harry asked.

I don't think he has to 'apply' for the job each and every year. I imagine that DD just KNOWS he wants the job, and consciously denies it to him each and every year.

Or he could have merely put in a first application and only sends in a new one when he has something to add to it. For instance if he did some sort of course over the summer that he thinks might help he could send in a new application for the job.

That way he would still be regularly applying for the job but not necessarily every year and Lockhart could have been the only new applicant that year. Hagrid would merely be passing on information he had heard, it is not likely that he would be in Dumbledore's confidence when it comes to the hiring of teachers.

Actually, we have no evidence that Snape ever applied for the DADA job. He had no reason to blow his cover to Umbridge (who probably got her info from Draco)

I too was of the opinion that he did not actually want the job. However I do believe that he was telling the truth when Umbridge questioned him. I also doubt that her initial source of information in respect of this would have been Draco or any other student. I think that she would have had access to all the school records and teacher files before she started questioning anyone and any applications for jobs would have been easily accessible to her.

Although I do agree that she probably got a lot of gossip about what teachers are good/bad etc from Draco and the others.

There is no way in the world Harry will be allowed in Snapes advanced potions lessons, but Harry really needs this class to become an Auror. Dumbledore knows this so he will try to find a way for Harry to take this class.

I think that Dumbledore could make Snape take Harry into his class. He is the headmaster and must surely have the final say in things. I think that Harry could take potions with Snape the next year.

I am inclined to think that Snape will get the job in the final year.

I would also like to think that Snape will get the DADA job in the 7th year. I don't know what JKR meant when she said that the DADA job would bring out the worst in Snape, but I can't honestly believe that he will return to LV. He is on Dumbledores side now and I do think he is spying for the order.

My thoughts are that maybe he is LV's son and that perhaps teaching the Dark arts would somehow give LV control over him again. I havent properly thought it out, but I thought it could be an interesting twist. I think the time frame would be about right too. Who is to say that LV never had a son/daughter.

That is the only reason, aside from Snape jeopardizing his position as a spy, I can think of for him not getting the job. I think he would be a brilliant DADA teacher, and i think he is a good person deep down who would never go back to LV.

I don't know what JKR meant when she said that the DADA job would bring out the worst in Snape, but I can't honestly believe that he will return to LV. He is on Dumbledores side now and I do think he is spying for the order.

I agree that I don't think he is really a death eater after all. It would be too much of a cliche for one thing.

What bothers me the most about the fact that he has not got the job is the fact that it shows that no matter how much he is a part of the Order of the Phoenix and everything else, to me it seems to be an indication that Dumbledore does not trust him entirely.

If he thinks it would bring out the worst in him then that means he does not trust him to teach the job for whatever reason.

By constantly denying him the job I think that Dumbledore is doing far more harm than good.

I am not sure about the theory of Snape being LV's son. I think that if that was the case there would a clue to the connection somewhere. And considering all the clues that the people posting here and at other boards have found I am sure that any clue to the connection between them would have been found long before now.

No, JKR said Voldemort has no children.

From the chat on 4 April, 2004:
Harry: Has Voldermort any children
JK Rowling replies -> No. Voldemort as a father... now that's not a nice thought.

Daddy Voldemort :evil: It is a horrilble thought. Thanks Nickya!

You are right LouisaB there would certainly be more clues/connections, I was really just grabbing at straws and hadn't based the Snape as LV's son on anything. I still find it hard that Dumbledore won't give Snape the job because he is worried about it sending him down a slippery slope. Why have him in the order then? Dumbledore wouldn't be foolish enough to have Snape be a part of the order if he didn't have total faith in his commitment to work for the good of the wizarding world.

The only thing i can think of is, yes, there is something about Snape's past (snape might not even be aware of it) and that Dumbledore is only protacting him and trying to do what is best for him. Kind of like what he was doing for harry.

The upsetting thing would be if Snape did have the potential to go back into LV's service. I can't believe he does though......it just doesn't seem right.

Wasn't trying to shoot you down, Hunnybun, just trying to nudge your thinking along a different path!

The best theory, IMO, has been that there is another reason to keep Snape from being DADA teacher than JKR's statement about DD saying we'll see how you do with potions. Might be part of his 'cover' to appear to be at odds with DD....It's probably earlier on this very thread, but I just can't re-read all the posts!

i don't think Snape will get it in the next book unless we're given a very good reason for it.

first off DD took Umbridge over him, unless something significant has happened to Snape in DD's eyes in book 5 i don't see why he should give him the job now. especially after the whole pensive episode. if that was a test for Snape, he failed misserably.

second Snape is posing as a DE and it would probably look a little suspicious if he was given the job now. i also don't think LV is stupid and probably very carfull about what info he leaks to Snape, i'm sure DD thinks Snapes hands are full enough as it is.


now we know that DD's reason would give a lot away about the remaining books so what i'm wondering is how and why would teaching DADA effect Snape...

It might have something to do with the fact that Snape is too keen to prove himself that he may forget about the safety of the children he is teaching DADA too and we saw that he was prepared to teach the children werewolf material before they where ready. Imagine that as a practical and Snape giving them a creature they can not handle for example.

Dumbledore may not want Snape to teach DADA as a result of his eagerness to learn the dark arts; DADA is about defense of the dark arts not how to use them effectively against wizards and witches. Perhaps the subject of DADA may bring back memories of what happened between himself and James, maybe James was once a DADA teacher or that it was the teaching of DADA from Voldemort that attracted him to be a death eater in the first place. If the later is the case then Dumbledore might be a little afraid of allowing Snape to study anything to do with the dark arts.

No Probs Nickyg! I think you are right, it is part of his cover. The one thing I wonder about is why Dumbledore allows him to cover the classes when for example Lupin was too ill to teach? Why did he also let him 'assist' Gilderoy in the dueling club? Surely if Dumbledore doesn't feel he could teach the class he wouldn't even let him do these one offs? Why not get another teacher to do it? This is why the covering up his work as a spy is a plausible theory. I think the whole...he'll go back to his old ways is a load of nonsense.

Perhaps the one-offs were a test/trial...

i think dumbledore wouldn't want snape to have the temptation to return to rely on the dark side of magic, which would eventually lead him to voldemort again. dumbledore trusts him, sure, but he's helping him stay away from evil by not allowing snape to delve in dark arts each and every day by teaching its defenses.

kinda like kicking an addiction cold turkey.

we saw that he was prepared to teach the children werewolf material before they where ready.

I don't think that that could be the reason why he is being denied the job. He only did that to give away Lupin's secret in a roundabout sort of fashion. The main motivation in my opinion was that he was jealous of Lupin having the job he wants. If he had the job I do think that he would do it properly in this respect as there would not really be a reason to discredit another teacher like he did here - after all he would already have the job that he wants.

ditto almighty pod:

i very much doubt that he will become a DADA teacher because you don't give an alcoholic a cocktail.
let me explain:

if he was a death eater then he was really mixed up in the dark arts, and he probably knows loads, but it's easy to fall into old habits especailly if you enjoy them. I love coffee and diet moutain dew and no matter how long it's been, if i have one i begin to have 10.

i don't think snape is a bad person, but neither are alcoholics...

some how i doubt that being a DE spy is any less tempting than teaching DADA. i have to wonder if he will be tempted to side with LV again as it is...

some how i doubt that being a DE spy is any less tempting than teaching DADA. i have to wonder if he will be tempted to side with LV again as it is...

Well said! I agree that being around the death eaters would be just as, if not more so, tempting than teaching the DADA class.

Surely Voldemort would want proof of his loyalty and unless his spying is limited to merely hanging around with Lucius Malfoy or something (which is very doubtful) then surely Voldemort would at some point have said "okay, if you are still loyal, prove it".

If his lapsing into the dark arts was the only reason to keep him from the job then I agree that he would not have been sent to spy for the OotP as it would be too great a risk.

I actually think the reason is that Dumbledore wants his students to enjoy DADA as is probably the most important class at Hogwarts. I somehow don't think Snape would make it more enjoyable. And as we saw in OotP it is best for them to have a teacher who is pleasant and makes the teaching/learning experience worthwhile.

I've got a theory but it may have been submitted before... Well, I think that Dumbledore doesn't want to allow Snape to become the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher as he doesn't want Snape to take risks. I mean, we know that Severus is a spy for Dumbledore : the Death Eaters must believe ( for Snape's own security ) that Snape support them even though he doesn't kill anymore. Imagine that Severus has got the job : the Deatheaters may have some suspicions, don't you think ? A Death Eater who teach how to protect yourself against the Death Eaters : it's a bit paradoxal...

On the other hand, my theory isn't as great as it seems since everyone at Hogwarts knows that Snape feels like this job : the Death Eaters must know that too ( I'm sure that Draco told it to Lucius as soon as he knew it ). I hope that Joanne will enlighten this point in The Half Blood Prince :)

Dumbledore will have his reasons

Dark Arts are something Snape has been living with since he was little.. He he remarked that the Marauder's Map was made with Dark Magic (which is very possible).. So, he might be very reachable by the Dark Lord if he's made DADA.. as he will be accessible to all the Dark stuff..

I dont think that Dumbledore thinks the job will be too tempting for Snape because if Snape is spying on death eaters he is going to be around the dark arts all the time.Don't you think that it temptation enough. If he can handle being around the dark arts first hand then why would teachincg the defence against them be any different?. Also, as Dumbledore clearly states in each book, he trusts Snape. And not with little things either. Snape knows all the Order;s secrets, he knows about the prophecy, he was intructed to teach Harry occlumency lessons. So, why would Dumbledore think he will fall back into the dark arts if he trusts him with things far more important than teaching defence?

Maybe it's because he likes Snape better in Potions for the reason that he's maybe better at it. Or maybe it has something to do with the dark arts?? I dunno. It could a number of different things.

Snape knows all the Order;s secrets, he knows about the prophecy

I agree with you overall, but do we know for sure, that Snape knows about the whole prophecy? The Order members know all about the existence of it, and perhaphs even the overheard part, but it seemed to me, that only Dumbledore knew the whole.
Of course Snape can know it as well, it is not impossible.

JKR was asked on the live webcast (I'm listening to it now) and she said that she couldn't tell much without giving plot stuff away, but that Dumbledore was afraid it would bring the worst out in Snape.

I think this is a big hint: Snape was a death eater and making Snape the DADA teacher would put him back in contact with the DA. Reconnecting Snape to the DAs might cause Snape a relapse into the Dark Arts...since we're to learn so much about Snape in the next book, perhaps Snape gets captured by the Death Eaters? Perhaps the plot line revolves around him in such a sense. Snape's job is to spy on Death Eaters, his relationship with Draco Malfoy seems prudent in order to keep an eye on Lucius Malfoy.

What's kind of funny is that in Book 2 and Book 5 all the other characters act like no one wanted the position. In book 2, Hagrid says that Lockhart is the only one who wanted the DADA, and in book 5, the MoM take over the DADA position invoking the Decree that says the ministry can appoint teachers at Hogwarts when no applies for the job. The characters seem to ignore Snape's job application and pretend like it never happened.

My apologies if this theory has been submitted before in this thread, I was unable to read over the whole thread yet. Also, this theory isn't mine but something I read off Harry Potter for Grownups.

What if the reason Snape wants the DADA job, and the reason Dumbledore won't give it to him, is because of the one-year jinx? In other words: Snape wants out of Hogwarts, badly, but he still honors whatever agreement he had with Dumbledore in becoming professor and won't take the direct way out. (This part by me: Who knows, maybe the nature of the agreement was magical and forbids Snape to just quit.) The DADA job is the more "honorable" way out, and if the agreement was a magical one, the only possible way. Not that any of the DADA teachers we've seen ended their jobs on a positive note(killed; memory wiped; sacked; soul sucked out), but hey, Snape might not care if he escapes ugly as long as he escapes at all.

This may also explain JKR's cryptic comment about the job bringing out the worst in Snape; the worst of Snape may not be his Dark Arts leanings or his unpleasantness, but the fact that he hates the children and his job.

So Snape's asking for the DADA job, year after year, is his way of expressing his dissatisfaction with his life at Hogwarts; and each year Dumbledore won't let him go because he's still needed. For one thing the Slytherin Head of House is much younger than the other Heads, leading me to believe Dumbledore had some difficulty finding a suitable Head if Snape became one at such a young age.

My apologies if this theory has been submitted before in this thread, I was unable to read over the whole thread yet. Also, this theory isn't mine but something I read off Harry Potter for Grownups.

What if the reason Snape wants the DADA job, and the reason Dumbledore won't give it to him, is because of the one-year jinx? In other words: Snape wants out of Hogwarts, badly, but he still honors whatever agreement he had with Dumbledore in becoming professor and won't take the direct way out. (This part by me: Who knows, maybe the nature of the agreement was magical and forbids Snape to just quit.) The DADA job is the more "honorable" way out, and if the agreement was a magical one, the only possible way. Not that any of the DADA teachers we've seen ended their jobs on a positive note(killed; memory wiped; sacked; soul sucked out), but hey, Snape might not care if he escapes ugly as long as he escapes at all.

This may also explain JKR's cryptic comment about the job bringing out the worst in Snape; the worst of Snape may not be his Dark Arts leanings or his unpleasantness, but the fact that he hates the children and his job.

So Snape's asking for the DADA job, year after year, is his way of expressing his dissatisfaction with his life at Hogwarts; and each year Dumbledore won't let him go because he's still needed. For one thing the Slytherin Head of House is much younger than the other Heads, leading me to believe Dumbledore had some difficulty finding a suitable Head if Snape became one at such a young age.

I don't agree with your theory on only one part: The post opened just when Harry arrived at school in his first year, and Snape asked for the job even then. There was no jinx at the time, because the teacher before lasted many years... Dumbledore had a reason for not letting Snape the job, and it couldn't have been because of a so called one-year-jinx....

I don't agree with your theory on only one part: The post opened just when Harry arrived at school in his first year, and Snape asked for the job even then. There was no jinx at the time, because the teacher before lasted many years...

Is there any textual proof for that? In CoS("Mudbloods and Murmurs") Hagrid says:

"Gettin' very difficult ter find anyone fer the Dark Arts job. People aren't too keen ter take it on, see. They're startin' ter think it's jinxed. No one's lasted long fer a while now."

In the first place, if Quirrel was the first DADA professor to last only a year, I doubt people would think the job is jinxed after just one such incident: It makes more sense that there was a long string of such incidents, for people to be afraid to apply for the job.

In the second place, Hagrid clearly says no DA professor lasted very long for some years, though it's unclear whether they all lasted only one year.

Dumbledore had a reason for not letting Snape the job, and it couldn't have been because of a so called one-year-jinx....

From the evidence we're given so far, it doesn't seem to be for the obvious reasons at least. As the originator of the jinx theory so aptly put it, the notion that it's too tempting for Snape to take the post is like trusting someone to infiltrate a drug ring but not to teach an anti-drug seminar. Don't be too quick to dismiss the jinx theory, to me it seems to make more sense than the "reformed addict" one anyway.

I have spent the last 2 hours reading the posts and theories for this topic. I think all the theories mentioned are excellent and have given me lots to think about. I will have to go and reread the books more carefully now!

I love Severus Snape, and i have always believed there was more to him than meets the eye as we see him being more and more developed as the books come out. I am so intrigued by this character, if he gets killed i may have to protest! :p

I'm still not convinced that he's not a vampire. His appearance, certain little hints here and there.......could be a reason for him not getting the job. He has shown himself to be irresponsible when substituting in that position. Both times that were mentioned in this thread, he acted in a way that would not induce me to hire him for that job. He has too much pride. A characteristic that would get someone in that position into a lot of trouble.

All of these theories could be close or way off, who knows? JK will probably come up with something that will surprise the pants off the lot of us! And I hope she does. I am DYING to know Severus's secrets.

This character is much on my mind...............too much indeed.

Although Snape is undoubtedly a Slytherin, this does not automatically label him evil. DD trusts him which is the key factor. DD always knows more than he lets on. And as others stated earlier, he does do things for appearances, but i doubt that's the case. DD understands Snape's grudge and his hostility for Harry but I think he knows that Snape has limits. The level of danger is no different in Potions than DADA.

Snape has been known to subtlely reveal information like Lupin and his werewolves lesson (POS). That was personal. Well, DD tried to limit the info he gave Harry, protect him. He was afraid that Snape would let on to some of the magic used (that we won't know until until 6 & 7) in his parents death or just inadvertantly teach a lesson regarding something with his parents.

Furthermore, everyone has their own gift (i.e Neville's green thumb). James was excellent at Transfiguration and Lily was great with Charms. DD realized that Snape's true talent was potions..which has come in handy. Snape might resent the fact that Harry's talent is DADA.

Also, i believe in SS, Percy says that Snape wanted the job for years...that would mean before Harry even came to Hogwarts..so either DD anticipated Harry's arrival or his decision had nothing to do with Harry.

btw, i doubt snape will become DADA teacher in the next 2 books...its just not canon.

I wonder if he'll be able to do both? Like in PoA. Although i love the fact that Snape might have flunked DADA (i don't think he has). But that was an interesting theory about that's how Harry might get taught NEWT Potions.

Here's what has always been my theory on why Snape can't get the position...

Although Dumbledore trusts Snape, perhaps he still thinks that teaching DADA might be too much of a temptation. Sort of like overcoming alcoholism or drug abuse. People might trust that you have overcome it, but that doesn't mean you should go out drinking every night or go buy some heroin or something, otherwise you might get the addiction fired up again. Not saying Snape is "addicted" to the dark arts, but it's the same sort of situation, IMHO. Maybe Dumbledore is afraid he'll rekindle Snape's fire for the dark arts, lead him to return to doing things he might rather not have done, and, thus, endanger the students, the Order, and mankind.

I'm in total agreement with Dog Star on this one. It would be like an alcoholic bartending. Just not worth the temptation.

Personally, I think it's more exciting for the plot to have such atrocious DADA teachers, it would not be as interesting if the Potions teachers changed every year, I mean Harry isn't as into Potions, or as good at Potions, but DADA, that's interesting, and if there was a constant teacher it wouldn't be as good in the whole plot.

I think Dog Star's theory also makes sense but...I think Snape has more self control than that? Sure he loves to let a few things...slip for his own personal pleasure. Maybe the reason he can't get the job has to do with why he joined Voldermort in the first place...what made him change his mind anyways? I"m sure he didn't just tell VOldy he wouldn't be comming to wokr the next day...

For starters unless you value your life you don't simply walk up to Voldemoret and say you're not going to work for him. Besides a lot of the DADA teachers have directly (or indirectly as the case is most of the time) helped Harry develope his skill. Harry doesn't like Snape and personally I think he slacks off sometimes or doesn't try as hard as he can because he knows Snape isn't going to give him the mark he deserves anyway.

By the way Dawningoftime...I was being sarcastic about Snape telling Voldy he wasn't comming in to work today:S...on the other hand I definately agree that Harry slacks off sometimes and deserves what he's got coming to him but...why do you think Snape won't be given the DADA job is he has all the qualifications?
You've made a good point about him learning DADA even though sometimes his teachers weren't the greatest...