Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

The same reason that there is so much judging of Lily's actions when on Harry's part there is so little when he watches his mother end her relationship with Snape. Harry having "no" reaction in the text doesn't tell us how he felt.

Well, I don't approve of this either, or of any judgment of characters as though they have personally wronged us. They're fictional after all!

WWB
Harry having "no" reaction in the text doesn't tell us how he felt.

I think this may have had something to do with maintaining the emotional thread for the reader. The whole point of the chapter is to change the reader’s hatred / dislike / distrust of Snape to some level of understanding & even pity (how he would have hated that:lol:)

DH
the prohpecy was a pretty big thing, so Voldemort had to have trusted him.

No, no-one expected the prophecy, it happened on the spur of the moment (as did all of Sybil’s actually prophecies). Snape’s being there was not planned – it was a coincidence. I suspect he reason Snape was so quick to tell LV was that there is a continual jockeying for position amongst DE as we see in al the books following GoF.

DH
…his desire to become a Death Eater (which he felt would jerk Lily around to finally seeing him as impressive). That is why Snape became tongue tied in the first place -

Or perhaps he got tongue tied because what he had so strongly believed for an age (becoming a DE = being impressive = Lily loving him) was suddenly thrown into doubt; he had the rug pulled out from underneath his feet – enough to muddle anyone’s thinking I think

Well, I don't approve of this either, or of any judgment of characters as though they have personally wronged us. They're fictional after all!

:rotfl:. True, it is at times difficult to remember to be advocate and not a member of the cast!

CathyWeasly
I think Severus really believed that once he had the power and status it would be alright because Lily would be protected by association with him.


:tu:Good point – the fact that he did ask LV to spare her could be seen as an indication that your right

Or perhaps he got tongue tied because what he had so strongly believed for an age (becoming a DE = being impressive = Lily loving him) was suddenly thrown into doubt; he had the rug pulled out from underneath his feet – enough to muddle anyone’s thinking I think

Actually that is the same thing I suggested, just from a different angle. Snape did have the rug pulled from under him and he was left with nothing to say, because he was not willing to say what he knew would work as an instant cure to the problem in their relationship. At the same time, he understood that this time there were two new added factors: 1) he'd referred to her as a dirty little mudblood, and he wasn't exactly sure how she would react to that (he knew it would be a negative reaction, but how deeply it would affect her, he could not be certain) and 2) she had directly asked him if he was going to join Voldemort.

I think the second factor was completely unexpected. It was something Snape had planned, but knew he could never reveal to Lily because she would not understand - not until after he'd done it and she could see how powerful he had become. As to the first factor, I think Snape was merely being arrogant. He did regard muggles and muggleborns on a lower plane, but he loved Lily despite her being one. I don't think Snape realized how horrible of a notion that would be to Lily, who had likely hoped until then that Snape was just 'joining in with his friends' with respect to all the muggle hating. But Snape's background (his awful muggle father - and likely the other muggle kids he knew he considered awful too like Petunia) meant that he really did have distain for them.

Well I think at least some of this became clear to Snape and he was seriously at a loss - not with an inability to speak - but rather at not knowing what to say. He had every intention of continuing with his dark ways and the fact that Lily was suddenly giving him an ultimatum about that (when she had not done so before knowing full well the path he was on) made him realize that he could not defend his position verbally and keep their friendship. On the muggle issue, Snape had begun to try and explain, but he said enough for Lily to understand where he was coming from and he realized that there was nothing he could say to make that right.

Still, if Snape had wanted to make things right between them - if he had been ready to place their friendship over the dark arts, he would have been able to express that readily and it would have worked. But he was not prepared to do so. Indeed he never did feel that way. When he placed Lily above his desires as a Death Eater in later years, they were no longer friends and guilt racked his soul for having placed her in a position of impending death.

Snape's action by itself may look bad; but he did not tear the photo with a smile or with vindictiveness that Harry should not have a photo of his mother IMO. It was an action made when he was crying at a time he had completely burnt his bridges. He probably wanted the photo because he may have felt that her photo would give him the strength he would surely require from then on for the rest of his life IMO.

That is very true, and I would have been more disgusted if he was being sadistic in taking the photograph. I can understand his pain for having to carry out the duty to kill Dumbledore, but I cannot excuse him for ripping the photograph. As sad as he was, he was stealing, for he took a person's possession without the consent of that person.

yes but it wasn't decided at the point that they were going to become death eaters.

I had the impression it was decided. As Lily said, he couldn't even deny his aspirations to be a Death Eater.

and yes later he DID become a death eater but by this time lily had left him. she had married James.

Erm, I don't see how Lily moving on with her life and marrying the person she loves is a betrayal to Snape. Snape's actions were the reason the friendship ended.

(She even says as much: "I can't pretend anymore")

:wow: I completely forgot that she said that! I take that to mean that to mean that Lily had been trying to ignore who Snape was becoming for a time period. The Mudblood comment woke her up and she realized that she could no longer pretend that Snape was the same person that she knew when she first met him; he was now a person she could no longer be friends with, a person that was attracted to things that she felt were morally wrong.

Snape remained friends with Lily while he was friends with Death Eaters because he thought he could have them both- Lily and the Death Eaters.

I prefer arguments based on what is actually in the books, then I can see where a particular opinion fits in. However, to me, this confirms my opinion of Snape, which I arrived at based ont he descriptions of him in the book, that he really valued his friends. Even the ones we may not think highly of.

I am reminded of the way many readers continue to insist that Draco was a coward, even though he risked a rather terrible death in an attempt to save a friend. Yes, that friend was Goyle, but so what? Goyle is a human being too, and based on how he cried for Crabbe, I would bet Draco cared about them both.

So wondering what Snape would do if he was the one who made the choice to break up with Lily is a valid thought I think.

Why? I disagree with your seeming premise, that if forced to make a choice by his pals in Slytherin, Snape would break up with Lily. I don't think he would. I think he would refuse. It is, after all, what seems to have happened in reverse. And when life forced him to make the choice by making it a clear either/or choice, he chose Lily.

The poor guy wasn't so lucky as to be dumped by his friends for his relationship with Lily. :sigh:

She was his childhood friend- the childhood friend that didn't ask him how he was after the Shack inncident and the friend that smirked when he got pantsed and the friend that got a crush on his enemy.

Lily did rather more for him in the worst memory scene than his buddies did, I would point out. :D

If Snape remained friends with Lily, wouldn't his Death Eater friends get mad at him for being friends with a mudblood?

Apparently, not for five years. Which provides a rational basis for a belief that this would continue into adulthood.

(She even says as much: "I can't pretend anymore")

I had forgotten about this also. This to me implies that she had been making excuses for Snape and tried to ignore what he was getting up to and what his beliefs were. When she said this it was basically the final straw for their friendship.

I think it was already decided. Lily had warned him fairly. She told him her views on the Death Eaters and how she really didn't like them, yet Snape continued to hang out with them. Now, she wasn't sure he would be a Death Eater, but it sure looked like he was heading down that path. Lily didn't want to take a chance with him.

And he actually became a Death Eater before Lily and James were married. Right after he left schhol.

yes but that is your assumption though. It does not say in the book.

and Lily warning him was also an assumption on her part.

No there is no proof as to when he actually became a death eater.

I prefer arguments based on what is actually in the books, then I can see where a particular opinion fits in. However, to me, this confirms my opinion of Snape, which I arrived at based ont he descriptions of him in the book, that he really valued his friends. Even the ones we may not think highly of.

Snape valued his friends, to his standard of valuation. Snape was willing to become a Death Eater for Lily, which shows he valued her and becoming a Death Eater must be a high standard of valuation for him. But Lily didn't want him to become a Death Eater, and becoming a Death Eater was a low standard for her. So that just flushes Snape's valuation down the drain. Snape can value his friends all he wants, but doing something his friend doesn't like to prove his valuation isn't going to get Snape anywhere.

Why? I disagree with your seeming premise, that if forced to make a choice by his pals in Slytherin, Snape would break up with Lily. I don't think he would. I think he would refuse. It is, after all, what seems to have happened in reverse. And when life forced him to make the choice by making it a clear either/or choice, he chose Lily.

The poor guy wasn't so lucky as to be dumped by his friends for his relationship with Lily. :sigh:

My original premise wasn't Snape making the choice because his Death Eater friends were making him. It was Snape coming to the epiphany that he couldn't hold on to his two groups of friends, and he had to choose one over the other, or he might lose both in the end. I'm not saying Snape would break up with Lily, but I believe there is a total possibility he would. IMO, if Lily didn't break up with Snape post-pantsing scene, there would come a moment where he had to pick one. Lily joined the Order of the Phoenix. His Slytherinn friends became Death Eaters. Is there any way Snape could remain friends with one side if he was friends with the other?

It was never explicitly stated that Snape's Death Eater friends didn't want him to be friends with Lily, unlike how it was Lily who explicity said that her friends couldn't understand why she was friends with him. But I find it hard to believe that Snape's Death Eater friends didn't give him **** for being friends with Lily. They may have not give him an ultimatum for 5 years, but as they were getting older, they were aspiring to become Death Eaters. Like Lily, people were already picking their side of the war. When Snape became a Death Eater, they would probably want him to cut ties with Lily. It must have been wide information Lily was or was going to be in the Order of the Phoenix, and for Snape to remain friends with her while she could pose a great risk for the Death Eaters. They can't be sure Snape wasn't telling Lily about the Death Eaters. So I think it is possible that his Slytherin friends would give him an ultimatum eventually if he continued being friends with Lily.

I don't think the hilltop scene is equilvalent to the breakup scene. The Snape who stood on that hilltop was a Snape who basically sent Voldemort after Lily. Yes, the fact Snape went to Dumbledore is proof he chose Lily, but he went because Lily was going to die. The stakes are much higher than the post-pantsing breakup scene. In the breakup scene, all Lily had to lose was Snape and all Snape had to lose was Lily. No one was going to die. But in the hilltop scene, Lily's life was on the line. Regardless of how unfavorable the relationship was between them, I don't think Snape wanted her to die so he was willing to choose her this time. To compare Snape not choosing Lily after a teenage fight to comparing Snape choosing Lily when he himself put her in danger is not the same. The situations are not the same.


Lily did rather more for him in the worst memory scene than his buddies did, I would point out. :D

She helped Snape. And she also flirted with his enemy. Anyways, wasn't Snape embarrased that Lily helped him? He seemed positively flustered when James dropped him when Lily told James to put him down. And Snape didn't seem all the appreciative that Lily helped. He lashed out at her, and called her a mudblood. And I don't even recall a thanks on his part.

yes but that is your assumption though. It does not say in the book.

and Lily warning him was also an assumption on her part.

No there is no proof as to when he actually became a death eater.

I agree it doesn't say in the book - but Snape didn't deny it then or during the next two years that we know of, and ultimately he did become a Death Eater like his friends. I think that is fairly good evidence that it was his intention. In any case, it was enough for Lily to go on, and that is why she ended the friendship. Snape had two years after that to tell Lily that she had been wrong, but obviously he did not do so because they did not become friends again.

I think Snape did still fancy Lily, but he felt that his goals were more important to him at that time - at least through sixth year. In seventh year when she began to date James, Sirius says Snape hexed James at every opportunity. That could indicate that Snape was jealous - thus still fancied Lily.

Everyone is fragile in their own way. James struggling with the beginning of a relationship with Lily; Snape grappling with losing Lily to James; and I would speculate both of them understood that about one another. Snape would see James as a gloating conqueror, imo and James would see Snape as defeated, jealous and angry. But if Snape hexed James, James would retaliate and any compassion normal to James character and any chivalry normal to Snape's character, would fly out of the window, imo. They would allow the negative attributes tower between them like an impenetrable wall, and anger and hatred would win the day in a battle of wands.

While Lily didn't know much of what went on between James and Snape, I am certain the little she did know was enough to further estrange her from Snape. By that time she would be fully immersed in the fragility of her new relationship and less inclined to sympathise with her old friend. So I think by 7th year, within the framework of that type of environment, it would have been too late for Snape to try to speak to Lily.

My original premise wasn't Snape making the choice because his Death Eater friends were making him. It was Snape coming to the epiphany that he couldn't hold on to his two groups of friends, and he had to choose one over the other, or he might lose both in the end. I'm not saying Snape would break up with Lily, but I believe there is a total possibility he would.

I don't. Everything in canon shows the opposite, to me. He would choose Lily. He did, even when she was inaccessible (married to another man), even though what it meant for him, was to risk death. If he had an epiphany, I feel certain he would have dropped his Slytherin friends, not the other way around. The problem was, as the books and Rowling seem to say, that he believed he could have both.

When Snape became a Death Eater, they would probably want him to cut ties with Lily.

They must not have told him so, or what Rowling said in the interview you cited makes no sense. :D

To compare Snape not choosing Lily after a teenage fight to comparing Snape choosing Lily when he himself put her in danger is not the same. The situations are not the same.

You posit a hyothetical fight between Snape and Lily, following which you imagine Snape would decide to break up. I disagree, we never see it. He backs down to her, every time he sees she might be getting angry. Deciding to break up with her permanently is something I cannot see him doing. (As opposed to lashing out in anger and immediately seeing his mistake).

zgirnius, I agree that ideally, Lily should have listened to Snape and been more patient as he "struggled on the verge of speech" outside the portrait hole when she cut their friendship off for good; while I supported her decision to end it, I can understand why you would resent the manner in which she did so, because she didn't give him a chance to speak or hear him out as a friend should. Lily is often labeled as "too perfect," but I thought that in this scene Rowling illustrated one of her primary flaws (And I loved that, because I was already a fan of Lily prior to DH, and I was excited that she gained so much depth in TPT): her hot, stubborn temper. By the time she spoke with Snape, because she was such a passionate person, I think she was still very angry and hurt about the slur he used on her down by the lake, and raged at him as a reflection of those feelings, which must have built up over time, while they drifted further and further apart, and their methods of communication became more strained.

It wasn't a perfect reaction, but it was quite human, I thought, and showed Lily to be a three-dimensional character, IMO. :)

Had she waited for Snape to speak, it wouldn't have made a difference. The friendship had been over for a while because of their diverging paths. SWM and the insult only brought it to a head. I feel certain that had he changed his direction later on in their sixth or seventh year, that she would have noticed and resumed the friendship. That's why she started dating James; he got it. He "shrunk his head" and matured. And once he stopped being an arrogant toe rag she was willing to date him.

Had she waited for Snape to speak, it wouldn't have made a difference. The friendship had been over for a while because of their diverging paths. SWM and the insult only brought it to a head. I feel certain that had he changed his direction later on in their sixth or seventh year, that she would have noticed and resumed the friendship. That's why she started dating James; he got it. He "shrunk his head" and matured. And once he stopped being an arrogant toe rag she was willing to date him.

Exactly. You know, JKR said that Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape somewhere along the way if he hadn't been immersed in the dark arts deal. But the fact is, even thought she thought James was a prat, she developed romantic feelings for him anyway. I think that indicates that while Lily didn't like pranking, James himself was the type of guy that was on the right side of the road in her book. She saw a prat, but saw a future wherein he could develop into a boy she could definitely love. I think that is the bottom line difference.

Had she waited for Snape to speak, it wouldn't have made a difference. The friendship had been over for a while because of their diverging paths.
In essence, I agree; I don't feel he would have decided to change his course (JK Rowling said that he was "so blinded by his love for the Dark Arts" that he didn't even understand why Lily hated them), and I think she knew that; I think she knew, when he uttered "the unforgivable word" that it was over for good, that the final string that held them together had snapped, and that he had truly chosen his way, and she had chosen hers. That's not to say that she couldn't have shown him a bit more patience as he struggled to speak, but I don't think that whatever he did say could have brought them back together.

I've never taken the "might have grown to love him romantically" comment as a realistic possibility, because the idea betrays the essential characters of Lily and Snape, IMO-- trying to imagine a Snape who doesn't love the Dark Side and isn't drawn to the Dark Side is like trying to imagine a Lily and James who took Voldemort's offer and joined up; it just isn't applicable with the canon characters, IMO.

I've never taken the "might have grown to love him romantically" comment as a realistic possibility, because the idea betrays the essential characters of Lily and Snape, IMO-- trying to imagine a Snape who doesn't love the Dark Side and isn't drawn to the Dark Side is like trying to imagine a Lily and James who took Voldemort's offer and joined up; it just isn't applicable with the canon characters, IMO.

I agree I was thinking more in terms of Lily and how she would view the characters of James and Snape in an overall sense. THere were probably other guys she dated who were headed down the right road and not arrogant. But, they were not James, and in that same sense of destiny you speak of, there would be something not quite right about each of them because of that. Snape would not fall into that category for Lily because of those characteristics you spoke of - like Avery, Lucius and Mulciber who also wouldn't.

I've never taken the "might have grown to love him romantically" comment as a realistic possibility, because the idea betrays the essential characters of Lily and Snape, IMO-- trying to imagine a Snape who doesn't love the Dark Side and isn't drawn to the Dark Side is like trying to imagine a Lily and James who took Voldemort's offer and joined up; it just isn't applicable with the canon characters, IMO.
That's why I said she might have resumed the friendship with Snape, not that she would have dated him. I never saw any interaction between her and Snape where they seemed to be on the same page. Even, their first few scenes together were strained.

I agree I was thinking more in terms of Lily and how she would view the characters of James and Snape in an overall sense.
Oh, I agree with what you said. :) Lily wasn't a rule-stickler, IMO, and appreciated pranking (Much like her friend, and presumably fellow prefect) Remus did, but she hated the mean-spirited behavior that James displayed in his younger years because of her distaste for his "fat head" and bullying in general. But even whilst he fumbled and made his mistakes, James' heart was always in the right place-- he was horrified when Snape called Lily a mudblood and stood up for her, unable to even use the word hypothetically.

With James, I do think she saw his potential to change, because he was already on the right path; he already embraced muggle tolerance, but still took an unnecessarily aggressive approach towards those he disagreed with, like Snape, whom Lily accuses of regularly using the mudblood slur. With Snape, for whom she had been making excuses for years, I think she saw him as too far into the Dark Side to relate to him anymore. When she ends the friendship with Snape, there is "no pity" in her eyes, and she gives him a "contemptuous" look; I don't think she had any love, or even friendly affection for Snape by that time, for she, a passionate girl, doesn't seem at all distraught to be saying goodbye to him forever, IMO.

But, they were not James, and in that same sense of destiny you speak of, there would be something not quite right about each of them because of that.
I agree, a famous quote says that to love is "learning to see an imperfect person perfectly"-- I think there was something about James, something irrational and undefinable, beyond all of his obvious wonderful qualities, that made him Lily's soulmate; JKR referred to him as the "love of her life."

That's why I said she might have resumed the friendship with Snape, not that she would have dated him. I never saw any interaction between her and Snape where they seemed to be on the same page. Even, their first few scenes together were strained.
Oh, I wasn't referring to your post at all, just the comment in general. :D I definitely agree with you-- they didn't seem to get along or foster a true bond from the beginning, IMO. I think their friendship was based on needs (In Snape's case I thought it was more of a desire for Lily, hence the "greedy" look, and in Lily's case a desire to learn about the magical world), rather than a true enjoyment of one another's company and genuine compatibility, so I got the sense that it was always rather unhealthy.

That was how I saw it too. Had Lily not been a muggleborn, she would have known more about the wizarding world, and he wouldn't have filled an important need for her.

That was how I saw it too. Had Lily not been a muggleborn, she would have known more about the wizarding world, and he wouldn't have filled an important need for her.
Yes, I believe she remained connected to Snape, even though they didn't seem to get along (The Train scene comes to mind, here) because she was such a curious little girl-- we see her jumping off the swing and playing with the flower, fascinated by her mystical ability, and eager for adventure, and I think she looked to Snape to fill her void of information, because she was raised and cultured in Muggle Society. When she went to Hogwarts, they both met gangs of new friends (For Lily, it was the Gryffindor girls by the lake, and for Snape, the gang of aspiring Death Eaters, notably Mulciber and Avery) who opposed one another, and, IMO, they began to drift apart because they lacked that compatibility that makes true friends, such as James and Sirius, or Harry and Ron, click.

With James, I do think she saw his potential to change, because he was already on the right path; he already embraced muggle tolerance, but still took an unnecessarily aggressive approach towards those he disagreed with, like Snape, whom Lily accuses of regularly using the mudblood slur. With Snape, for whom she had been making excuses for years, I think she saw him as too far into the Dark Side to relate to him anymore. When she ends the friendship with Snape, there is "no pity" in her eyes, and she gives him a "contemptuous" look; I don't think she had any love, or even friendly affection for Snape by that time, for she, a passionate girl, doesn't seem at all distraught to be saying goodbye to him forever, IMO.
:agree: She was done with him. She wasn't getting anything out of the relationship at that point except worry and stress about the path he was pursuing. I think she must have realised that she was being hypocritical when it came to him as well. There was no reason to continue sticking by him. She didn't want a man like that in her life anymore.

they didn't seem to get along or foster a true bond from the beginning, IMO. I think their friendship was based on needs (In Snape's case I thought it was more of a desire for Lily, hence the "greedy" look, and in Lily's case a desire to learn about the magical world), rather than a true enjoyment of one another's company and genuine compatibility, so I got the sense that it was always rather unhealthy.
:agree: I agree. Their friendship was based more on circumstance than compatibility imo.

Yes, I believe she remained connected to Snape, even though they didn't seem to get along (The Train scene comes to mind, here) because she was such a curious little girl-- we see her jumping off the swing and playing with the flower, fascinated by her mystical ability, and eager for adventure, and I think she looked to Snape to fill her void of information, because she was raised and cultured in Muggle Society. When she went to Hogwarts, they both met gangs of new friends (For Lily, it was the Gryffindor girls by the lake, and for Snape, the gang of aspiring Death Eaters, notably Mulciber and Avery) who opposed one another, and, IMO, they began to drift apart because they lacked that compatibility that makes true friends, such as James and Sirius, or Harry and Ron, click.
I agree. Their friendship was based more on circumstance than compatibility imo.Both of you have nailed it exactly. :tu: :agree:

:agree: She was done with him.
I've always liked the character of Lily in that aspect-- Jo has confessed herself concerned with girls who have the "bad boy syndrome" (She was speaking of Draco, I believe, but I see her comment as applicable to the young Snape as well) and stay with men who behave unkindly or make poor choices because they believe they can change him; from my experience, girls who do that only end up getting hurt, because, as Jo illustrated in the books, true change comes from within the person themselves, and must be generated by a conscious effort on their part. Lily was a strong girl who came to realize that she couldn't change Snape, and that he had chosen his "way," a way that she not only opposed, but sought to fight in her adult years.

I've always seen it as poetic that Lily ended up married to a man who chose to change for himself. :)

I think she must have realised that she was being hypocritical when it came to him as well.
Definitely-- she says, in SWM, that James, whom she had been screaming at because of his bullying, and Snape are just as bad as one another.

I've always liked the character of Lily in that aspect-- Jo has confessed herself concerned with girls who have the "bad boy syndrome" (She was speaking of Draco, I believe, but I see her comment as applicable to the young Snape as well) and stay with men who behave unkindly or make poor choices because they believe they can change him; from my experience, girls who do that only end up getting hurt, because, as Jo illustrated in the books, true change comes from within the person themselves, and must be generated by a conscious effort on their part. Lily was a strong girl who came to realize that she couldn't change Snape, and that he had chosen his "way," a way that she not only opposed, but sought to fight in her adult years.
:tu: I agree. I admire Lily for being so strong. It fits perfectly into JKR worry that young girls made poor choices with men because they think they can change them. Lily was an example of a girl who realised that she couldn't and that she was only hurting herself by staying in a relationship with Snape. She realised it was unhealthy for her and she made the smart choice to end it.

I've always seen it as poetic that Lily ended up married to a man who chose to change for himself. :)
I think so too :)

Lily was an example of a girl who realised that she couldn't and that she was only hurting herself by staying in a relationship with Snape. She realised it was unhealthy for her and she made the smart choice to end it.
Yes, she did, and I think that was the moment in which she truly grew up, when she said the line that gives me chills to this day: "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine." One of Lily's core traits was her stubborness (And, in essence, stubborness isn't a bad trait, IMO; it is the backbone of perseverance and conviction), and she continued to make the mistake that some girls make by sticking by Snape for years, even while he was using the mudblood slur on all the other muggleborns (She accuses him of such) and going down the road to becoming a Death Eater, but she was just a child, and, as she grew up, she gained the wisdom to choose her way and separate herself from Snape for her own good, IMO.

Yes, she did, and I think that was the moment in which she truly grew up, when she said the line that gives me chills to this day: "You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine." One of Lily's core traits was her stubborness (And, in essence, stubborness isn't a bad trait, IMO; it is the backbone of perseverance and conviction)

Well I have to disagree with that. Perseverance doesn't necessarily stem from subbornnes, and conviction is not all that good, in my opinion. I personally have noticed that subbornness obscures the judgment and inteferes with rational thought, because it makes people oblivious to other viewpoints and different opinions. Plus stubbornness practically excludes humility, which I personally value as one of the most remarkable character traits in humans. But all this is a matter of personal values, so I'l continue with Lily: I don't think she was stubborn. Actually I think Severus displayed more stubbornness in his early years - when he wouldn't listen to her viewpoint about the Marauders or the dark activities of his friends. I think she was just concerned, and in the end, she had to make a choice, because she was able to see where his friends and where her friends were heading, and chose the latter - not out of stubbornness, but because she belonged there, and not with the Death Eaters (obviously).

and she continued to make the mistake that some girls make by sticking by Snape for years, even while he was using the mudblood slur on all the other muggleborns (She accuses him of such) and going down the road to becoming a Death Eater, but she was just a child, and, as she grew up, she gained the wisdom to choose her way and separate herself from Snape for her own good, IMO.

I don't believe that was a mistake. That was her being a proper friend. Who deserts their friends at the first signs of them going on the wrong path? Only people who are not your true friends and care more about themselves than the friendship, in my opinion. When she did make the choice to break up, however, she had good enough reasons. Actually I'd say she didn't really have choice, unless she thought herself capable of changing Severus's mind about joining the Death Eaters, which she didn't, and I think couldn't, at the time and circumstances. So she made a choice I think she believed inevitable - not one she thought good for herself, and to hell with Severus. I don't believe Lily was a person to make that choice.

When she did make the choice to break up, however, she had good enough reasons. Actually I'd say she didn't really have choice, unless she thought herself capable of changing Severus's mind about joining the Death Eaters, which she didn't, and I think couldn't, at the time and circumstances. So she made a choice I think she believed inevitable - not one she thought good for herself, and to hell with Severus. I don't believe Lily was a person to make that choice.
Thank you. That's exactly what I thought happened. She had no other options.

I don't believe that was a mistake. That was her being a proper friend. Who deserts their friends at the first signs of them going on the wrong path? Only people who are not your true friends and care more about themselves than the friendship, in my opinion. When she did make the choice to break up, however, she had good enough reasons. Actually I'd say she didn't really have choice, unless she thought herself capable of changing Severus's mind about joining the Death Eaters, which she didn't, and I think couldn't, at the time and circumstances. So she made a choice I think she believed inevitable - not one she thought good for herself, and to hell with Severus. I don't believe Lily was a person to make that choice.

Good point. :tu: It shows that she was a good friend to Snape and it was mainly Snape's fault that the friendship ended IMO, because he refused to listen to her. He only realised when it was too late what he had lost.

she was making asssumptions when she said they were bad people. snape stuck by his friends. lily ended it because she wanted him to be friends with only her...?

I don't think she was making assumptions, I think she was judging them by their deeds. Remember when she says something like "it's evil, what they do"? And well, the ones she mentions do become Death Eaters, so her judgement was right. I don't either think that Snape saw them as friends in the true meaning of the word. He never felt affection for them, nor did he seek any personal closeness. He only hung out with them to partake in their power that they got from using the Dark Arts.

she was making asssumptions when she said they were bad people. snape stuck by his friends. lily ended it because she wanted him to be friends with only her...?

Lily wasn't just making assumptions; they were using Dark Magic, which she was completely against, on other students. She didn't end it because she wanted him to be friends with only her; she ended it because she didn't like the things Snape and his friends were doing. She had been making excuses for him for years, but when he used an extremely offensive name on her, she couldn't ignore the things he was doing anymore.

thats also an assumption vapormist. because yes he did not hold them dearly but we don't know why he hung with then. IMO i think that he hung around with them because he ahd no other friends besides lily. and they were not even in the same house so he needed other friends.

Well I have to disagree with that. Perseverance doesn't necessarily stem from subbornnes
Well, to persevere is to never give up. It may be a more upstanding emotion, especially where moral causes are concerned, but I do see it as a polished, more mature form of stubborness. :)

and conviction is not all that good, in my opinion.
Well, it is a trait I very much value, and I trait I saw in Lily in spades: She was willing to stand up and fight for her strong beliefs, her beliefs that Voldemort's regime was morally in the wrong, and that is what sets her apart as a true hero, in my opinion.

I personally have noticed that subbornness obscures the judgment and inteferes with rational thought, because it makes people oblivious to other viewpoints and different opinions.
Ah, but stubborness can be negative, and I thought we saw this with Lily-- she refused for years to see Snape for what he truly was, despite all of his dark activities and group of "precious little Death Eater friends," but continued to make excuses for him, even though she knew, deep inside, that his behavior was wrong, and continued to give him her company, because she cared about him, even when he was a person that she could no longer relate with; I believe that was detrimental to her, as she seems distressed and upset in the three teenage memories (The Forest, SWM, and the Apology), so that when she overcame that stubborness, and began to see Snape more clearly (Particularly when he turned his racial terminology on her and called her a filthy mudblood), she developed that rational judgement and understood that the healthy and righteous choice was to break up with him, IMO.

I don't believe that was a mistake. That was her being a proper friend.
Actually, I believe it was a mistake on her part to even become his friend in the first place-- on the playground, he "spitefully" insulted Petunia because she was a muggle, and, by extension, Lily's heritage; he was already on the wrong path before they even became friends, IMO. But Lily was just a little girl when she met him, and her mind was free of the knowledge of the racial clashes of the Wizarding World, so I can hardly blame her for her curiosity on the playground and in the thicket of trees-- befriending Snape was an unwise choice, IMO, but I could hardly expect little Lily to display perfect wisdom and judgement, because she was only a child, and had an air of optimism and naivety about her (She doesn't notice the way Snape looks at her "greedily" or the manner in which he almost insults Petunia on the train).

Who deserts their friends at the first signs of them going on the wrong path? Only people who are not your true friends and care more about themselves than the friendship, in my opinion.
It wasn't the first sign of him going down the wrong path, though; by the time she ended the friendship, she had been making excuses for his behavior for years, and I presume she had to endure their strained relations for that time as well.

From what I saw in canon, it doesn't appear to me that Lily and Snape had a "true" friendship, ever, I'm afraid. Yes, they say that they are "best friends," but those words are empty when you examine the scenes Snape gave to Harry, IMO.

So she made a choice I think she believed inevitable - not one she thought good for herself, and to hell with Severus. I don't believe Lily was a person to make that choice.
Ah, I believe you misunderstood me-- I wasn't implying that in the slightest. :) Actually, I believe that Lily had that Gryffindor sense of honor, that inspired her to stand by her friends (A quality which I believe made her quite compatible with James, who would rather die than betray a friend), and that she sacrificed her emotional health and some of her happiness by standing by Snape, determine, I perceived to change him, but she finally realized that it was no use anymore, and that, if he were to truly change, that change had to come from within himself. It was, IMO, a decision to do what was right for herself, because I believed she finally recognized, when Snape called her a mudblood, that continuing relations with him would only bring her more hurt, and no happiness.

Thank you. That's exactly what I thought happened. She had no other options.
Ironically enough, she could have had that option, had she continued to allow Snape to be a part of her life, because Voldemort ending up wanting to recruit her to his ranks. :lol: But, of course, Lily had no other option deep in her heart, because she was so very different from Snape and could never devote her adult life to working for Voldemort, whose aspiration was to rid the world of "filthy muggles" as he did for a time.

All my lowly opinion, of course. :)

Well I have to disagree with that. Perseverance doesn't necessarily stem from subbornnes, and conviction is not all that good, in my opinion. I personally have noticed that subbornness obscures the judgment and inteferes with rational thought, because it makes people oblivious to other viewpoints and different opinions. Plus stubbornness practically excludes humility, which I personally value as one of the most remarkable character traits in humans.

Imo, it depends what you are talking about. Voldemort and Dumbledore were stubborn and had conviction about what they felt was right. Lily and Snape did too in the same way. The only reason Voldemort and Snape's stubbornness and conviction were bad were because of the wrongness of their focus. Similarly Dumbledore and Lily's was good because it was holding onto and supporting something righteous.

I don't think she was stubborn. Actually I think Severus displayed more stubbornness in his early years - when he wouldn't listen to her viewpoint about the Marauders or the dark activities of his friends. I think she was just concerned, and in the end, she had to make a choice, because she was able to see where his friends and where her friends were heading, and chose the latter - not out of stubbornness, but because she belonged there, and not with the Death Eaters (obviously).

I agree except I think they both stubbornly held onto their values, beliefs and morals - only Lily was right and Snape was wrong (in terms of the good/evil deal).

I don't believe that was a mistake. That was her being a proper friend. Who deserts their friends at the first signs of them going on the wrong path? Only people who are not your true friends and care more about themselves than the friendship, in my opinion. When she did make the choice to break up, however, she had good enough reasons. Actually I'd say she didn't really have choice, unless she thought herself capable of changing Severus's mind about joining the Death Eaters, which she didn't, and I think couldn't, at the time and circumstances.

Yup...exactly. She waited too long, imo, but not fatally so.

So she made a choice I think she believed inevitable - not one she thought good for herself, and to hell with Severus. I don't believe Lily was a person to make that choice.

This I would respectfully disagree with. By the end, Lily was finally thinking of what was best for her in the situation (cutting ties with a budding Death Eater). I doubt she thought 'to hell with Snape' , but 'you chose your path and I chose mine' (then turning and leaving) amount to the same thing stated in a more considerate way. But that was a moment in time. There were a multitude of other moments most of which we didn't see - and one we did - in which these issues came up. So it was not a sudden decision on her part to just dismiss him out of hand; it was a long time coming. But on that day, he had increased his sins by calling her a Mudblood and not immediately discounting the fact that he was planning to join up with the DEs. I'd wager her top two excuses for Snape flew out of the window that day.

How else should have Lily acted? Lily had to show how mad she was to get her point across. And someone yelling at your face definitely captures your attention. I don't think the breakup scene was a time Lily could be passive and depressed. This thought just occured to me. While it is thought by some people that Lily should have been more nicer to Snape in the breakup scene, what about if the roles were reversed and it was Snape breaking it off with Lily? Would Snape be any nicer than Lily while he told he was through with her (forget that Snape was romantically in love with her; he loved Lily as much as Lily loved him in the original breakup scene) ?

I think ignisia summed up accurately. Lily should have gone to an adult. Especially if Snape was joining an organisation that was equal to the terrorist organization of today IMO. I also don’t think Lily needed to show how mad she was at taht time. I however expected her to show how sad she was breaking off a friendship that meant a lot to her at one time, even though she did not care for that friendship at that time. But I did not see that in the books. She was cool, raising an eyebrow and brushing off Snape. She said her piece and left. She could have been IMO talking about something very unconcerned to her, rather than break off what was a friendship for more than five years.

I would not ask her to keep a friendship when she was not interested to, but I think she could have gone about it in a better way. She wanted the friendship to be broken. He did not want it. She knew that too. So knowing she was taking a unilateral decision to break a friendship for whatever reason, could have gone about it with a little bit of sensitivity IMO. I felt she did not show it.

She could have, but it would have ended the same way. Imo, Snape was not ready to renounce the dark arts and his friends, or his desire to become a Death Eater (which he felt would jerk Lily around to finally seeing him as impressive). That is why Snape became tongue tied in the first place - he could not readily admit that he had no intention of giving up any of it because he knew it would cause her to march away. Saying nothing had the same result, but Snape hadn't considered that.

I think you have a point; Snape at that time may not have listened to her; but I still feel that Lily should have given him a choice, and told him to choose between the death eaters and her friendship. I think she was not wrong in the sense that she had all the rights to end a friendship with a person she did not want to associate with; but I would expect that ending to come with a lot more feeling than what I saw, considering the closeness Snape and Lily shared. I did not see that and it kind of soured it for me.

I don't buy the idea that Snape was unable to say anything in the face of Lily's wrath. He had absolutely no problem doing so in their conversation just before that when he told her "I won't let you" and she got just as angry 'Won't let me!!!!' Snape spoke up right away, backpeddling himself out of the situation and easing her wrath. So Snape knew what he had to say to do that in this scenario also - he just did not want to renounce those things she wanted him to. Imo, that is the obvious reading of the 'end the friendship scene' because the only time he became at a complete loss for words was when he became so angry he began hyperventilating as in memory #5 - that was not the case in this scene. He was able to override her speech before and he could have done it again - he didn't want to. Supported by the fact that he didn't say anything during the next two years either.

I don’t think Snape could argue with her. From what I saw he went out of his way to keep the peace between them. Even when it came to her attitude in the werewolf incident, which memory I think you have mentioned, and her apparent unconcern for Snape's escape was ignored by him. He even, as you say back peddles when she says *won’t let me*. So I think Snape kind of left her to do what she wished and I think he left her to her wishes when she decided to break off too.

Yes, I think so. I think she stuck by his side out of stubborn loyalty but truly felt disconnected from him because of the choices he was making-- it must have been difficult for her to watch "Sev," the boy who introduced her to the magical world, go down such a dark road, but she finally realized that she had to allow him to make his own decisions, and that it was no use pretending to be his friend anymore. Poor Lily. :sigh:

I don’t think so and I respectfully disagree with you. Loyalty towards their friendship was something that was conspicuously absent IMO from the shack memory. Lily does not even ask Snape how he was. Instead she concentrates on James’s heroic act. It looks to me she already made a choice of James over Snape.

And why at all should she pretend to be a friend to Snape? Pretend is to act. If Lily was pretending to be Snape's friend IMO it would have been kinder to tell him she did not want him as her friend at all.

Actually, when Lily broke up with Snape, she was (understandably) forceful, and I thought she seemed relieved to finally be rid of him; she yells at him, out of hurt and anger, IMO, and there is "no pity" in her voice before she gives him a "contemptuous look" and climbs back into the Gryffindor common room, literally and symbolically going back to the House of the Marauders, while he goes back the the dungeons, where the Death Eaters dwell. Those are not the actions and expressions of a heartbroken girl-- IMO, Lily wasn't the slightest bit sad to see him out of her life for good, and I truly don't blame her.

I don't. Everything in canon shows the opposite, to me. He would choose Lily. He did, even when she was inaccessible (married to another man), even though what it meant for him, was to risk death. If he had an epiphany, I feel certain he would have dropped his Slytherin friends, not the other way around. The problem was, as the books and Rowling seem to say, that he believed he could have both.

What we were shown in canon can be interpreted in different ways. He did choose Lily, but when he played a part in her death. The contributing to her death factor greatly influences his choice.

They must not have told him so, or what Rowling said in the interview you cited makes no sense. :D
Sorry. I must have not been clear. I meant that in the sense if Lily and Snape were still friends post-SWM. Nearing graduation, I would presume his Slytherin friends would greatly concerned with Snape's friendship with someone who wanted to join the Order.


You posit a hyothetical fight between Snape and Lily, following which you imagine Snape would decide to break up. I disagree, we never see it. He backs down to her, every time he sees she might be getting angry. Deciding to break up with her permanently is something I cannot see him doing. (As opposed to lashing out in anger and immediately seeing his mistake).

Just because Snape backdowned when Lily started yelling doesn't mean he considered or cared what she yelled about. Snape did grow up in household where it was shown his father shouting at his mother. Him backing down could have been showing his aversion to being yelled out. If Snape realised the growing distance between him and Lily and her obvious dislike of a favorite hobby of his, he might have felt the same way Lily did in the fact the friendship was doomed and he might breakup with her for that fact. Hell, I think it possible that if Snape knew Lily was going to breakup with him, he would breakup with her before she could. Considering how much hell he through with his family (people who are supposed to love him and had a sucky way showing it) , Snape definetly seems like someone who doesn't want to be hurt by someone he loved, and so to protect himself, he might walk away from Lily before she could walk away from him if he knew that was what she was planning.

I think you have a point; Snape at that time may not have listened to her; but I still feel that Lily should have given him a choice, and told him to choose between the death eaters and her friendship. I think she was not wrong in the sense that she had all the rights to end a friendship with a person she did not want to associate with; but I would expect that ending to come with a lot more feeling than what I saw, considering the closeness Snape and Lily shared. I did not see that and it kind of soured it for me.

Think about it; if Snape wasn't planning to join Voldemort, he would immediately say: "no I'm not!" He didn't have to explain anything, that is all he had to say. Lily might have still ended the friendship, but but Snape being tongue tied at that moment was clearly indicative of either decided intent to join or waivering intent to join, imo. Either was too far down the path of destruction for Lily.

Loyalty towards their friendship was something that was conspicuously absent IMO from the shack memory. Lily does not even ask Snape how he was. Instead she concentrates on James’s heroic act.
I would respectfully disagree that Lily was a poor friend because she reminded Snape to be grateful to James for saving his life, instead of trying to discredit him at every opportunity-- he should have been grateful, IMO, and Lily was tired of his "obsession" with the Marauders, especially when she was trying to speak with him about Mulciber and Avery and he used them to skirt the issue.

It looks to me she already made a choice of James over Snape.
:huh: She says that she knows James is an "arrogant toerag, Sev" and a short time later, refuses to date him because of his behavior and tells her that he makes her "sick" and that she would rather date the Squid than him. In what way had she "chosen" James at that point? They didn't begin dating for over a year later.

And why at all should she pretend to be a friend to Snape? Pretend is to act. If Lily was pretending to be Snape's friend IMO it would have been kinder to tell him she did not want him as her friend at all.
But it was her loyalty that kept her pretending-- she could not help that, deep inside, she felt disconnected from Snape, but on the outside, she kept trying with him, and stayed by his side, even when she felt betrayed by his movement against her kind, as he began to use the mudblood slur on all of the other muggleborns and aspired to become a Death Eater-- that must have hurt her so deeply, because she was a muggleborn, but, out of loyalty and caring, she kept trying to pull him away from the Dark Side until she realized it was time to give up. :sigh:

I've always seen it as poetic that Lily ended up married to a man who chose to change for himself.
:agree: On the day of Snape's worst memory, Lily wasn't interested in either James or Severus. I believe that if Severus had changed their friendship might have rekindled. But James was the one who changed and he was the one Lily fell in love with and married.

So she made a choice I think she believed inevitable - not one she thought good for herself, and to hell with Severus. I don't believe Lily was a person to make that choice.
:tu: Excellent point!

Gryffindor sense of honor, that inspired her to stand by her friends I don't recall Gryffindors being noted for their sense of honour or standing by friends. :huh: As I recall the loyal ones were Hufflepuffs! :D

I think it is very sad - tragic - that even after losing her friendship he continued down the DE road believing he would become powerful and that it took Lily's life being threatened to "break the spell" as it were.

:huh: She says that she knows James is an "arrogant toerag, Sev" and a short time later, refuses to date him because of his behavior and tells her that he makes her "sick" and that she would rather date the Squid than him. In what way had she "chosen" James at that point? They didn't begin dating for over a year later.

I thought TGW meant that Lily had already made a decision on the "possibility of ever dating James" as opposed to the "impossibility of ever dating Snape". In that I would agree; that is why she fancied James, but had never come to fancy Snape.

I don't recall Gryffindors being noted for their sense of honour or standing by friends. :huh: As I recall the loyal ones were Hufflepuffs! :D
Yes, Hufflepuffs are the loyal ones, according to the Sorting Hat. :D But I noticed, among the courageous Gryffindors, a sense of righteousness and honor that inspired them to stand up for their friends and go to great lengths to save them, as Lily did for Snape in SWM, as Sirius said James would have done when Harry went to save Ron in the Shack, as James saved Snape (At great risk to his own life) for Remus and Sirius, as Harry dove to save Hermione in the MoM, as Ron did on the chess board and in the Shack, etc. Gryffindors are "brave at heart," and I think they (ideally) have that chivalry and sense of honor that leads them to do anything, even something reckless and hopeless (James faced Voldemort without a wand, as did Lily, to save Harry) for their friends and loved ones.

As Sirius, an idealistic Gryffindor, said, it is better to die than betray a friend. I think Lily may have been worried that she would "betray" her friend Snape if she broke things off with him, but finally realized she had to do so.

I think it is very sad - tragic - that even after losing her friendship he continued down the DE road believing he would become powerful and that it took Lily's life being threatened to "break the spell" as it were.

It's tragic, of course. But the words "even though" would seem to suggest it is surprising. I find it the opposite - it is exactly what I would expect. A decision on his part to break with the only friends that did NOT break with him would be surprising to me, not the opposite.

Think about it; if Snape wasn't planning to join Voldemort, he would immediately say: "no I'm not!" He didn't have to explain anything, that is all he had to say. Lily might have still ended the friendship, but but Snape being tongue tied at that moment was clearly indicative of either decided intent to join or waivering intent to join, imo. Either was too far down the path of destruction for Lily.

I agree. He didn't flatly deny it. If he did then Lily might have given him another chance.

I thought TGW meant that Lily had already made a decision on the "possibility of ever dating James" as opposed to the "impossibility of ever dating Snape". In that I would agree; that is why she fancied James, but had never come to fancy Snape.
I think she was attracted to James, but didn't want to date him because of her distaste for his arrogant behavior, and I don't think she had any romantic feelings for Snape, because their morals were so diametric, and the war situation forced them to choose their "way," even at the age of fifteen.

Perhaps I'm sensitive to this because I've often heard Lily accused of "dumping Snape for James," and I don't think she did that, and made a shallow or popularity-based choice (She wasn't a superficial person); I truly believe that, as she expressed, she ended her relationship with Snape because of the choices he was making, and her refusal to compromise her dignity and morals any longer, IMO.

It's tragic, of course. But the words "even though" would seem to suggest it is surprising. I find it the opposite - it is exactly what I would expect. A decision on his part to break with the only friends that did NOT break with him would be surprising to me, not the opposite.
I hadn't thought of it like that, but you're right. Having lost Lily's friendship the last thing he was going to do was break with his other friends.
There is a big part of me that often wants to slap Severus and get him to wake up! (And apparently I'm not alone :whistle: )

I think I must have missed something here - what's with the asterisks? :p

because yes he did not hold them dearly but we don't know why he hung with then. IMO i think that he hung around with them because he ahd no other friends besides lily. and they were not even in the same house so he needed other friends.
I disagree. I think ***** became friends with the future death eaters because they shared one of his main interests that Lily did not. It's natural to become friendly with those who have more in common with you. There's no canon that tells us how close he was with these other friends when he was also friends with Lily.

***** could not talk to Lily about dark arts and I'm sure it must have been nice to be with people who enjoyed the subject as much as he did. Lily could not satisfy him by sharing this core interest. Or at least, that's one of my theories. Though if he knew he could never talk to Lily about the dark arts, shouldn't he also know that him becoming a death eater would not impress her? I dunno, it's just on theory :p

Lilypod
I think she was attracted to James, but didn't want to date him because of her distaste for his arrogant behavior, and I don't think she had any romantic feelings for *****, because their morals were so diametric, and the war situation forced them to choose their "way," even at the age of fifteen.

I don't think she had any romantic feelings for ***** either. She seemed oblivious to his feelings imo. I firmly believe she always saw ***** the way Harry sees Hermione. Just a friend.

The s-word has been officially banned, Delicious. :D

Perhaps I'm sensitive to this because I've often heard Lily accused of "dumping ***** for James," and I don't think she did that, and made a shallow or popularity-based choice (She wasn't a superficial person); I truly believe that, as she expressed, she ended her relationship with ***** because of the choices he was making, and her refusal to compromise her dignity and morals any longer, IMO.
:agree: I also strongly dislike and disagree with the accusation that Lily chose James over ***** at the time of SWM (or when she heard that James had saved ***** from the willow).

Yes, it appeared she was already crushing on James after she heard about the willow incident, but like others have said before - who you develop feelings for isn't a choice, it's what you decide to do about those feelings that's the choice. Lily did not choose to do anything about any romantic feelings she had for James until he grew up and became a man she would willingly date. This was a whole year after she chose to leave *****. She chose to leave ***** not because she knew she couldn't have both - James and ***** - as friends, but because ***** had turned into everything she was against and she realised she couldn't pretend anymore.


The s-word has been officially banned, Delicious. :D
April fools? :p I just noticed the strange new format of the forums... :p

Delicious, you're so mature as to keep your composure-- I can't stop giggling. :D

But I agree with you-- love, or, as someone mentioned at the end of the old thread is irrational in the sense that it is irrepressible and uncontrollable, but one can dictate is whom they choose to associate with. Lily may have harbored some soft feelings for James in the forest (I always thought she blushed because ***** was insinuating that she thought James was "wonderful" like everyone else, but she didn't want to admit it), but she still chose not to pursue a relationship with him because of her aversion to the way he bullied and humiliated others, as he did to ***** in SWM. She had the same kind of aversion to *****'s behavior, and I think that's why she left both boys alone, but James changed in the next year, while ***** did not.

Yikes, I just read this and noticed the errors in it. I apologize for repeating myself and other things.
For the Poll, I answered that I don't agree with all the options. Lily was a very good Friend to Severus, she had the guts to stand up to him about his Friends and the possibility of him becoming a Death Eater. As far as that was concerned, Severus had made up his own mind and there wasn't anything Lily could have done to change that. Even if she had given him an ultimatum, he would have chosen to become a Death Eater. He was angry, lonely, tired of being pounced on and bullied. Even if Lily had shown him all the "good stuff within him", he still would have gone that way. The only thing that probably would have swayed him would have been if Lily's life was put in danger.
As for the "SWM" incident, it was clear she was really angry. IMHO, she had every right to be, however, I also feel she fell prey to that "group thinking" that Snape was a "no good, greasy git". While she may have had a strong will, it seems like Mary was pulling the strings. All it would take would be for someone to tell Lily if she went back to him, she'd wind up just like Snape--an outcast, a reject, etc for her to rethink about what happened.
We also don't know how much time passed since this infamous event and Snape's apology to Lily. If it was only hours after, of course Lily would still be enraged, not wanting Severus to get a word in edge wise to soften her up.
Severus did seem like one of those kids who didn't stand up for himself. I'm NOT saying he was a wimp and let people walk all over him. However, Severus was described as being physically smaller and weaker than his Peers. He knew in their eyes, he had no rights, etc. He was there for their entertainment, for their comic relief, etc. At least with Lily by his side, he didn't feel so alone. She gave him a reason to hope, to feel normal, etc. However, when Lily rejected him, it was a punch to his gut. It screamed "you're worthless" and maybe he felt "Why bother?" and didn't give things time to settle down. I think he had very low self esteem and probably felt he deserved to be alone. That it was easier to be alone, than to try to change your ways, to prove to Lily he was sorry.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Easy, he was terrified of being laughed at of being looked at like he was a freak of nature with a communicable disease. He was afterall, according to Petunia, "that Snape Boy". You know, "the FREAK" that no kid in his/her right mind would even say "Hello" to because he might hit you with his lazer beam eyes. Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical? Maybe, because he saw that rare sweetness in her. However, I doubt it because of his being rejected and ridiculed and his Mother's influence.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? He caught her off gaurd. She knew he was harmless. Severus didn't say "Hey" and threaten her in anyway. I also think a part of it was to snub Petunia to say "You're NOT the Boss of me", to test her, to see if she'd run home to Mommy and tattle. She wanted to seen as being the total opposite of Petunia. So if Petunia had flirted with Snape, Lily would have had that "Ew! What if he has coodies?" reaction. Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world? Yes, because he let her "wild side" show. She had that touch of "you can't tell me what to do" rebellious side to her from a young age. I honestly think it had more to do with Petunia's reaction to anything the least bit "abnormal".

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Snape had that "I know something that you don't know", "wanna hear something gross?". While Lily had that "I double dare you", "let's ring people's doorbells and RUN" aspect to it. Do you think it was a friendship of equals? I did have "absolutely" here, but I think Lily may have pulled the strings a little bit. Not that she was bossy, but from the "Come on, Severus, let's go" comment on the Hogwart's Express, it's clear she may have had an upper hand in the Friendship.
The other scene indicative of this is when the two are arguing about the Shrieking Shack incident. To me, it's very clear Severus took cues from Lily's facial expressions, her moods on how he should behave or say, etc. So I think in this respect, he was dependent on Lily for cues on what was cool, acceptable, etc. Not that he was Mentally Handicapped, but was so behind socially, that he looked to her for acceptance as opposed to thinking for himself.
4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship? I honestly see Lily working harder to maintain it, while Snape may have had that sense of invinsibility. You know, he could do almost anything and she'd stick by him. He loved her, but I don't think he really appreciated what he had until she was gone. He probably didn't have a good male role model in Tobias on how you show a Woman your appreciation for her. Maybe he thought he could say almost anything. If she got mad, could say "I'm sorry" like a small Child and Lily would be "Well, Okay, Sev, but you've got to watch what you say". Because we do see Lily looking like she's going to pull away when he says "Potter fancies you" and he won't "let" her go or whatever. However, when he says "I didn't mean it that way, I just meant to say....", she comes over to his side.
In short, he took it for granted that she would always be around. This does NOT mean he would intentionally hurt her, or put her in harms way. I don't think he really thought about the long term ramifications of his actions.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? It had a huge influence on how she regarded Severus. Where at first, he may have been her Knight in Shining Armour, he was knocked a few rungs down the ladder. He was no longer the only Friend she had. Lily had the company of other kids her own age who had more of a "normal" up bringing. As I said earlier, a group of people, especially kids can have a huge influence on someone, especially someone who is young and wants to fit in. How did Slytherin change Snape? I don't think it really changed him, except maybe to make him a little more prejudiced. Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? That's really hard to say. If Lily had been sorted into Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, they would have had the same influence over her. It just wasn't cool to acknowledge Snape had feelings. It was the "in thing" to bully him and disassociate with him. As for Snape, I think he may have wound up angrier and more dangerous if he was sorted into Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. He'd be a target of bullying because he was so different. At least in Slytherin, he felt like he belonged. Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house? Yes, if Snape and Lily wound up in Ravenclaw, for example, they'd be able to look out for each other. I also see them getting Married and possibly having a Child. Snape wouldn't have felt as lonely or different and Lily would probably stick up for him, but also tell him how to stand up for himself, etc.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else? It was a combination of the Mudblood insult being the last straw along with others' anti-Snape opinions that wound up breaking the friendship. Again, I still think Snape should have tried once again to apologize to Lily without other people being there, letting things cool down, etc. Then if she had rejected him, he'd know he had at least given it another chance.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Yes, he should have given Lily time to cool down. He could have written her a letter, stopped her in a hallway and said he wanted to speak to her. Made arrangements to speak to her alone, without other people to interrupt him. Maybe if he had given her a chance to explain what he did to her, he'd truly understand how she felt. If he really wanted to save their friendship, he should have gone to Slughorn, admitted to what he was doing and ask for help in severing ties with Avery, Mulciber, et al. Was there a different choice Lily could have made? Yes, she could have told Snape he really didn't want to speak to her at the moment. To wait until morning when she was alone. It was clear she was pressured into her decision. She should have also made it clear Severus was her Friend and if people wanted to hang out with her, then Snape was part of the package.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship? I, for one, see Severus and Lily being Married with at least one Child. It was so clear Severus loved Lily to death, and was willing to do anything for her. Lily loved Severus and saw him as that "Bad Boy" with whom she was safe to let her hair down and be the "real Lily". Not someone who did bad things, but not the typical "good little girl". When I say "Bad Boy", I don't mean the type who commits crimes, etc, but kind of the total opposite to what she was raised. If Snape and Lily weren't Married, I do see them being close Friends. You know, Snape would be Lily's Big Brother. Lily, Snape's Little Sister. Not a defenseless little flower, but the kind who he would help if she found herself in a bind. The kind to say "Wow, you really messed up, but I'll help you". The Big Brother who would hex the daylights out of anyone who hurt her.

Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Yes, she could have told Snape he really didn't want to speak to her at the moment. To wait until morning when she was alone. It was clear she was pressured into her decision. She should have also made it clear Severus was her Friend and if people wanted to hang out with her, then Snape was part of the package.

That is a good point. Snape had placed Lily under a lot of pressure with his decision to 'sleep' in front of Gryffindor if necessary. Even if he didn't mean that literally, but rather that he planned to remain there a very long time, that would have made Lily extremely uncomfortable. The fact that she was already feeling upset, angry and humiliated by Snape's earlier treatment of her (the mudblood name calling in front of the group), by the time she moved outside of hte portrait hole, she was likely really to give it to him big time. I don't think things would have gone differently at another time. But the conversation may have been calmer.

It was so clear Severus loved Lily to death, and was willing to do anything for her. Lily loved Severus and saw him as that "Bad Boy" with whom she was safe to let her hair down and be the "real Lily".
Actually, according to canon, Lily was "pretending" with Snape. She wasn't being herself. She tried to ignore all the faults with Snape when it was clear he was becoming someone who went against all her morals; she was becoming hypocritical. She realised she could not be herself and continue her relationship with Snape - either she had to change, or he did, and there was no way she was going to give up her morals. She let go of Snape and didn't have to pretend anymore. She didn't have to push back morals and pretend they didn't exist, like she had to have done with Snape if she wanted to get along with him even half the time.

Not someone who did bad things, but not the typical "good little girl". When I say "Bad Boy", I don't mean the type who commits crimes, etc, but kind of the total opposite to what she was raised.
There isn't much canon on how Lily was raised, so I don't know what you're basing this on. No, she wasn't the typical "good little girl" but who's to say Snape was the one who she brought it out for? What about her relationship with the marauders?

If Snape and Lily weren't Married, I do see them being close Friends. You know, Snape would be Lily's Big Brother. Lily, Snape's Little Sister. Not a defenseless little flower, but the kind who he would help if she found herself in a bind. The kind to say "Wow, you really messed up, but I'll help you". [/COLOR]
This isn't the relationship I saw in the books at all. I don't really see how Snape could act like a big brother if he was blinded by all of these romantic feelings for Lily. He'd become insanely jealous when Lily started dating James, instead of being happy for her.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think Snape was reluctant to approach Lily for many reasons. Firstly, he came from a not-so-loving home so he surely didn't have much self-esteem. Secondly, he must have known that he looked terrible because, like Harry, he spent his childhood wearing ugly clothes that didn't fit him. He also must have been aware of his socio-economic status compared to Lily's. She lived in a decent neighborhood, and he lived in a poor one. I also can't picture Snape ever having very many friends. It was in his nature to be shy and keep to himself, so going up to someone must have been hard for him. Lastly, I think he probably had a bit of a child-like crush on her.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Snape knew something she didn't so it opened the door for discussion. Snape made a strong first impression on her because he claimed to have answers that no one else around her did. She was intrigued by him. I do not think that a friendship would have flourished between them if he didn't tell her that she was a witch and all about the wizarding world because they really didn't have anything else in common other than the fact they were both 9 or 10 and they didn't really fit in with their families.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
Snape had that "I know something that you don't know", "wanna hear something gross?". While Lily had that "I double dare you", "let's ring people's doorbells and RUN" aspect to it.
I agree with what Leslie33 says here. That's exactly how I pictured their friendship to be. And yes, I do think that their friendship was equally contributed by both, if that's what this questions means. It was towards the end that it became unequal. Lily started to distance herself from him because she didn't like the person he was becoming.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I do think that they both worked to maintain the friendship. I think Hogwarts did definitely effect the friendship because they were from rival houses and the new friends they made couldn't understand the friendship that they had with each other.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
I think Gryffindor changed Lily because she began to make friends with people in her own house and those people didn't like Snape. It had to have been hard to stay friends with him while the people you see most didn't like him. I think the same was true for Snape. If they had been sorted out into different houses, I do think things would have turned out differently because there is no house rival as strong as the one between Gryffindor and Slytherin. But then that would mean that Lily and Snape really would be themselves. They were sorted into these houses based on personality. There's no way to really tell what it would have been like.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
I think it was Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts that killed it. The mudblood insult was just the final straw. When a friend starts going in a different direction than you, it's only an amount of time until the friendship dies off.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Snape could have listened to Lily when she was talking about how uncomfortable the Dark Arts made her. It says in the book, when she's talking about the Dark Arts, that it appears Snape doesn't take a word of it in. Also, Lily could have been more forgiving. I know that if I had a friend who was doing things I didn't like but they still wanted to be my friend, I would tell them that I would always be their friend even though I didn't like what they're doing. Lily didn't really leave that option open. She just shut him out completely.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
I think it could have turned into a romance. I think JK Rowling said somewhere that Lily might have even come to love Snape if he had just stopped with the Dark Arts. Although with James there, it might not have ever happened anyway.

Actually, according to canon, Lily was "pretending" with Snape. She wasn't being herself.

Are you confident this is the only way to take her statement? It seemed to me she meant that she can't pretend not to notice where he was heading, rather than not be herself. It's usually best to take sentences within context.

She tried to ignore all the faults with Snape when it was clear he was becoming someone who went against all her morals; she was becoming hypocritical. She realised she could not be herself and continue her relationship with Snape - either she had to change, or he did, and there was no way she was going to give up her morals. She let go of Snape and didn't have to pretend anymore. She didn't have to push back morals and pretend they didn't exist, like she had to have done with Snape if she wanted to get along with him even half the time.

I have big problems with that, most of them personal. I personally place friends above morals, and try to stick with them and help them, especially when they seem in need - hence my probably wrong conviction that this is right and *** other wat round is wrong. But still I disagree that Lily broke up with Severus because he clashed with her morals and she needed to be clear of him. Many would have done that, but that's not a reason to assume she did it dfor those reasons too, just like because I'd have stuck with him doesn't mean I have the right to expect Lily to do the same or judge her for not doing it. I believe she just came to a point where it was impossible for her to choose otherwise and she knew it. It could be argued that she could have tried further to talk him out of it, but I think Lily knew him well enough to be aware she couldn't do it.

He'd become insanely jealous when Lily started dating James, instead of being happy for her.
I don't think there is any canon regarding what happened when Lily and James started dating - nothing - so this is pure conjecture.
Actually, according to canon, Lily was "pretending" with Snape. She wasn't being herself. She tried to ignore all the faults with Snape when it was clear he was becoming someone who went against all her morals; she was becoming hypocritical. She realised she could not be herself and continue her relationship with Snape - either she had to change, or he did, and there was no way she was going to give up her morals. She let go of Snape and didn't have to pretend anymore. She didn't have to push back morals and pretend they didn't exist, like she had to have done with Snape if she wanted to get along with him even half the time.
She didn't say she was pretending in the sense that she wasn't herself with Snape. I always took that statement to mean that she couldn't go on pretending that what Snape was doing - Dark Arts and calling muggleborns Mudblood - was okay.

I have big problems with that, most of them personal. I personally place friends above morals, and try to stick with them and help them, especially when they seem in need - hence my probably wrong conviction that this is right and *** other wat round is wrong. But still I disagree that Lily broke up with Severus because he clashed with her morals and she needed to be clear of him. Many would have done that, but that's not a reason to assume she did it dfor those reasons too, just like because I'd have stuck with him doesn't mean I have the right to expect Lily to do the same or judge her for not doing it. I believe she just came to a point where it was impossible for her to choose otherwise and she knew it. It could be argued that she could have tried further to talk him out of it, but I think Lily knew him well enough to be aware she couldn't do it.
I agree. I think dropping a friend because your morals are different is a BIG mistake - and I talk from experience.
I also think that it is a little creepy if you only have friends who agree with you morally - but that's just my opinion.
I also think that they didn't just drift apart. Their friendship ended in anger. That is the canon. I don't doubt they had been pulling in opposite directions for a while, but they did have a definite falling out. Given that they were in different houses I think this shows how strong the friendship must have been initially. It would have been easy IMO for them to drift apart as they were in different houses - they would not have had lessons together and could not hang out in their common rooms together, which means they must have made time for each other - and this continued over 4-5 years.

I think dropping a friend because your morals are different is a BIG mistake.
I think it depends on your definition of morality. If my friends thought it was a lot of fun to prank people, I would not go along with it. If my friends thought it was okay to use slurs, I would stop hanging around with them. It is just the way I am. (Maybe it was too many years of having my mother remind me that people judge you by the company you keep. :lol:)

I think Lily tried to overlook these negative things about Snape because she saw the good parts of him, but she eventually reached the point where she could no longer accept what he was doing. I would have reached it a whole lot sooner than she did, to tell the truth. But Lily was a bit of a free-spirit. She didn't seem to mind that kind of thing, or else she wouldn't have been attracted to James, in my opinion. But once the joking and pranking crossed what I would consider the line she had drawn in her moral code, she could no longer justify it, in my opinion.

I agree. I think dropping a friend because your morals are different is a BIG mistake - and I talk from experience.
I used to have friends in college that occasionally used drugs. Once they crossed over into heavier drugs I remained friends, but I was concerned. Once they started hanging out with scary pusher-types, I became alarmed. Then they began stealing things and committing burglaries to pay for their drugs, and I could no longer remain friends. It wasn't just an issue of morals, but also the uglier aspects of their behavior.

So, of course than can be reasons to stop being friends with someone if your morals differ. That's one of the best reasons to do it, especially if the differences have to do with the friend's bigotry and dangerous behavior and unsavory associates, like it did for Lily.

Think about it; if Snape wasn't planning to join Voldemort, he would immediately say: "no I'm not!" He didn't have to explain anything, that is all he had to say. Lily might have still ended the friendship, but but Snape being tongue tied at that moment was clearly indicative of either decided intent to join or waivering intent to join, imo. Either was too far down the path of destruction for Lily.

I agree Snape was not at that moment anywhere close to ending his *friendships* with the DE wannabes. He could not say so to Lily. But I think he was not there that night to speak about that. They already had countless arguments about it before. I think Snape was there to apologize only for the wrong word he had used and that was why I think he refused to move away from the portrait hole until Lily came. I think he was shocked that Lily instead of yelling at him broke off completely with him. Perhaps that’s why he was speechless and unable to say anything. Another reason would be that he was so used to backing off whenever Lily was irritated or angry he followed suit. In fact I thought it was this way at first; but perhaps he was shocked because he did not expect that Lily would break off a friendship because of his *friends* in Slytherin, because she did know everything about them already IMO.

And to learn that she was only pretending to be his friend must have hurt like hell to Snape who was already in love with her at that time. I think he could not speak to save his life that night.

:agree: I also strongly dislike and disagree with the accusation that Lily chose James over ***** at the time of SWM (or when she heard that James had saved ***** from the willow).

Yes, it appeared she was already crushing on James after she heard about the willow incident, but like others have said before - who you develop feelings for isn't a choice, it's what you decide to do about those feelings that's the choice. Lily did not choose to do anything about any romantic feelings she had for James until he grew up and became a man she would willingly date. This was a whole year after she chose to leave *****. She chose to leave ***** not because she knew she couldn't have both - James and ***** - as friends, but because ***** had turned into everything she was against and she realised she couldn't pretend anymore.

April fools? :p I just noticed the strange new format of the forums... :p

I actually think so; because that is what I understood from canon. Lily was Snape's best friend; she was more concerned with James’s actions than Snape's danger that he narrowly escaped. She does not ask him what happened. In fact she tells Snape that he was ungrateful. I think she was beginning to think of James in a romantic manner since that memory.

And I really don’t think anyone was accusing Lily of falling for James. I don’t know why she waited as long as she did to date James either. I am still trying to find something in the books for that. So far I have been unsuccessful. But to blame Lily for falling for James, I don’t think so.

Me, I have a problem with her, in the way she broke off; not with the fact she did. It is kinder to stop being friendly to a person when you don’t feel you can be a good friend to him or he would be a good friend to you. Lily may have felt this way. That’s fine with me. The steps she took to end the friendship and the excuse she gave to end it was what I could not agree with personally. She knows he was friends with Avery and Mulciber, but it took the SWM for her to break off all ties and using the Slytherin friends as an excuse. While it may have been true, I feel that on that day, when I consider what had happened that day, I found the break up unnatural.

I really have problems understanding this dropping friends because of morality clash. I'm labelled "extreme feminist" by everyone who's been in my company for more than 5 min. I can keep my mouth shut abot many things and make compromises with many principles I have, but never with my anti-sexist beliefs. Yet I do have friends who are sexist, whether they realise it or not, and I do have friends who use sexist slurs and express sexist vies. I get mad, yell, proclaim myself deeply affronted, etc., but never even think about severing ties with a friend on this basis. People are more important than principles, that's a firm belief of mine. (And the main reason why I don't think Severus's reasons for fighting the war are any less admirable than James's or the Order's.) It's how I see things, and that's why it's never crossed my mind that Lily should have left Severus earlier. I think she put an end to it when there was almost nothing else to be done, and not because she didn't want to tarnish herself by association. Friends are more important than public opinion after all.

I think it depends on your definition of morality.
Yes!
So, of course than can be reasons to stop being friends with someone if your morals differ. That's one of the best reasons to do it, especially if the differences have to do with the friend's bigotry and dangerous behavior and unsavory associates, like it did for Lily.
Actually I do think Lily was right to end her friendship with Severus.

I think I got sucked into a hypothetical argument and lost the plot. :yuhup: I was thinking along the lines that I have a very different set of morals than some of my friends, but we can still be friends. Of course when those morals lead them to do things that hurt other people - then it is a different matter.

While it may have been true, I feel that on that day, when I consider what had happened that day, I found the break up unnatural.I don't agree. Snape called Lily Mudblood - her so-called best friend uses the worst insult known to wizards. I would have been very upset and angry too if i had ever been in Lily's position. I also think that with the war going on at the time, the position of muggleborns in wizard society would have been a very big issue, and Lily could have felt insecure and even scared about her future. To have her best friend turn on her like that must have been pretty scarey too.

I think there is a distinction between having friends with different viewpoints and having friends who break the law. The Death Eaters were basically hoodlums, for lack of a better word right now, and in my opinion, of course. That is a lot different than just being prejudiced, in my opinion.

Actually I do think Lily was right to end her friendship with Severus. I think I got sucked into a hypothetical argument and lost the plot. I was thinking along the lines that I have a very different set of morals than some of my friends, but we can still be friends. Of course when those morals lead them to do things that hurt other people - then it is a different matter.
Good. Because I thought we had been in agreement on this issue. :)

Far too many posts to read and too little time to absorb them so here's my two cents worth.

Didn't Albus Dumbledore once say to Snape that he thought they sorted too soon?

I think that James was probably jealous of Lily's and Sev's friendship and was most likely the first protagonist and unfortunately for Sev Snape he retaliated and then the constant goading of each other began. I think that if Sev (as Lily called him) had ignored James' taunting and ignored the other Slytherin's and their love of the Dark Arts etc then there might have been some hope the friendship could have been salvaged.

However Sev was a loner and because of his father's treatment of him and his mother vulnerable to bowing to peer pressure just to be accepted into a group (in a way like Peter - so in a way it's a pity Peter didn't go straight into Slytherin and join that dark group and Sev didn't get into Gryffindor and PERHAPS join the Marauders instead of Peter? Although I doubt this could come about as Sev and Peter were two completely different personalities.

since I often wonder how James et al accepted Peter so readily by doing so it makes them out to be easily taken in by admirers/crawlers. However both Peter and Sev probably both started out with rather likeable traits.

I think that under different circumstances Sev and Lily could perhaps have ended up very close friends like Harry and Hermione did and maybe even Sev could have found romance with someone with a dark sense of humor like he had.

I don't agree. Snape called Lily Mudblood - her so-called best friend uses the worst insult known to wizards. I would have been very upset and angry too if i had ever been in Lily's position. I also think that with the war going on at the time, the position of muggleborns in wizard society would have been a very big issue, and Lily could have felt insecure and even scared about her future. To have her best friend turn on her like that must have been pretty scarey too.

Yes, he did call Lily a mudblood and he had no right to at all. What I felt unnatural was the fact the break up happened on that day. When Snape called her a mudblood, he too, was pretty badly humiliated and was hanging upside down showing off his underpants for the world to see. And James was threatening to remove those as well. Snape and James/Sirius had also hexed each other and there was an allround mess IMO.

Lily knew about Snape's friends and also knew what they did to muggleborns was not funny. But I also think she knew Snape held her in the highest regard; and at the end of a humiliating day when Snape still coems to apologize for having stepped way over the line; I thought Lily would understand the circumstances under which Snape spoke those words; she could have still broken off her friendhip later, because Snape's friends made her uncomfortable and she could not in all honesty say she was okay with it.

But that day, rather that night, she breaks off her friendship using the SWM as an excuse I felt was unnatural. That day Snape called her a very offensive word because he too was in such a position. That anger, frustration and humiliation I think caused him to use that word, for which he was willing to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room to say sorry. It showed he truly was sorry for calling her so IMO.

And Lily did not take that insult lying down, and she was correct in that as well; she spoke equally harshly to Snape, hitting him where it would hurt most; calling on his personal hygine, when she knew how he had been brought up IMO. As far as that fight went, Snape and Lily both used harsh words, and Snape because he felt he used a word that was truly offensive, came in the night to apologize IMO. And Lily did not care, because she could not pretend to be his friend anymore IMO.

It had nothing to do with her pretending to be his friend. It was just the last straw in the friendship. We can see in their previous conversation about Avery and Mulciber that they were just having an argument they'd had before. They seemed to know what the other one was going to say before it was said. This friendship was on the rocks, but it was a tribute to Lily's good heart that she continued to cling on. However, the mudblood comment finally signified the end for her. Friendships or relationships are often rocky for quite some time, but something brings it to a head and they break it off. The argument or issue that brought it to a head isn't the real reason for the break up, just the catalyst.

May I ask what the hell is SWM? I keep seeing it and have asked those around me who read the books what it is but they are at loss like I am. In the words of the idiot Pauline Hanson - PLEASE EXPLAIN.....

SWM = Snape's Worst Memory. :)

(HP book fans are as bad as LotR film fans when it comes to acronyms! :p)

It had nothing to do with her pretending to be his friend. It was just the last straw in the friendship. The argument or issue that brought it to a head isn't the real reason for the break up, just the catalyst.

You may be right; but I just felt that Lily did not take into account the humiliation Snape went through that particular day and did not give him the leeway of what happened for Snape to speak so harshly IMO. And she was harsh in return too IMO. That was why I felt she may have used that as an excuse for breaking up a relationship that was in her mind almost non-existent at that time. :)

I've been musing about something for a while. Some people consider Lily a bad friend to Snape, right? She didn't ask him how he was after the werewolf incident, she called him ungrateful, she told him she didn't like his other friends, she flirted with James in SWM, and she coldly broke up with Snape while he trying to apologize. And I'm sure the Lily-haters can come up a million other reasons she was a bad friend. So if Lily is such a bad friend, why do some people dislike the fact she broke up with Snape? Why would it be wanted that Snape continue his friendship with someone who apparently didn't care about him? If Lily was such a bad friend who constantly fought with Snape, why bother remaining friends with her? Snape had his Death Eater friends. Did he really need her? So in a way, Lily breaking it off with Snape would be the best thing for him. You don't want to continue a decaying friendship with a rotten friend, do you? And having the other person breaking it off just saves you the responsibility of doing it yourself. I don't know...this was something I was just thinking about. (And for the record, I love Lily. Don't think I'm a hater!)

May I ask what the hell is SWM? I keep seeing it and have asked those around me who read the books what it is but they are at loss like I am. In the words of the idiot Pauline Hanson - PLEASE EXPLAIN.....As Pearl_Took said, it stands for Snape's Worst Memory. This is the scene from The Order of the Phoenix when Harry sticks his head in the Pensieve and sees the Marauders and Snape together. It is the time when Snape calls Lily a mudblood.

I've been musing about something for a while. Some people consider Lily a bad friend to Snape, right? She didn't ask him how he was after the werewolf incident, she called him ungrateful, she told him she didn't like his other friends, she flirted with James in SWM, and she coldly broke up with Snape while he trying to apologize. And I'm sure the Lily-haters can come up a million other reasons she was a bad friend. So if Lily is such a bad friend, why do some people dislike the fact she broke up with Snape? Why would it be wanted that Snape continue his friendship with someone who apparently didn't care about him? If Lily was such a bad friend who constantly fought with Snape, why bother remaining friends with her? Snape had his Death Eater friends. Did he really need her? So in a way, Lily breaking it off with Snape would be the best thing for him. You don't want to continue a decaying friendship with a rotten friend, do you? And having the other person breaking it off just saves you the responsibility of doing it yourself. I don't know...this was something I was just thinking about. (And for the record, I love Lily. Don't think I'm a hater!)

I'm not sure who this post is directed to. :)

And I can't say I'd noticed many -- if indeed any -- Lily-haters on this particular messageboard. :whistle:

I would say that Snape did need Lily, simply because he very much needed someone like her in his life: somebody with a generous heart and strong morals who accepted him for who he was, and seemed to remain friends with him long after their initial childhood contact.

And that is the tragedy of his bad choice, of course: that the pull of the murderous, power-hungry Death Eaters proved stronger in the end than her generous friendship. :sigh:

Lily's friendship with Severus makes me like her all the more, because she didn't reject the guy for being -- among other things -- a socially awkward oddball.

Duh! Thanks for the explanation - I must have been having a 'senior's moment'.

I still think there is some merit in Albus Dumbledore's musings that perhaps they sort too soon.

I can't help but wonder what the outcome would have been had Peter been sorted into Slytherin and Severus into Gryffindor? Peter was more the betrayer than Severus. I feel that James could have possibly like Lily when she was Sev's best friend and was a bit jealous and taunted this Slytherin git as he saw him. However I wonder if he would have done the same thing if Sev was in Gryffindor? House loyalty being what it is at Hogwarts. If he had been sensible (which young male teenagers with raging hormones usually aren't) he would have seen that Sev and Lily were friends like Harry and Hermione at first (I think Sev's romantic feelings came later) showed Lily and Sev the true meaning of the friendship by befriending Sev (and done a Ron perhaps?????) and none of the trouble MIGHT have happened as it was all in the family (Gryffindor) so to speak.

However I digress as Lily's 'Sev' was never in Gryffindor. BUT IF HE HAD BEEN.......?

I think there is a distinction between having friends with different viewpoints and having friends who break the law. The Death Eaters were basically hoodlums, for lack of a better word right now, and in my opinion, of course. That is a lot different than just being prejudiced, in my opinion.

We have no evidence that Snape, or his friends, were breaking the law while Snape was friends with Lily. And if they were, Lily was certainly remiss (as a citizen and as a friend) in not reporting it. I could see not reporting Sev, out of loyalty - but not the others. It seems a great way to try and separate him from a bad lot, as she obviously thought the Slytherin gang were.

The evidence I see in the books points to Snape's friends playing nasty tricks on people, or trying to, using legal Dark Magic (Lots of it is - curses, hexes, and jinxes are all over Hogwarts!), of which Lily disapproved. Nothing more.

We have no evidence that Snape, or his friends, were breaking the law while Snape was friends with Lily. And if they were, Lily was certainly remiss (as a citizen and as a friend) in not reporting it. I could see not reporting Sev, out of loyalty - but not the others. It seems a great way to try and separate him from a bad lot, as she obviously thought the Slytherin gang were.

The evidence I see in the books points to Snape's friends playing nasty tricks on people, or trying to, using legal Dark Magic (Lots of it is - curses, hexes, and jinxes are all over Hogwarts!), of which Lily disapproved. Nothing more.I agree that we don't see Snape, Mulciber or Avery breaking the law. But I believe that Lily referred to Avery and Mulciber as Snape's Death Eater friends (I don't have the book with me right now, so I trying to go from memory). Lily most likely, although it isn't canon, knew what the Death Eater group was all about. We know that she disapproved of something they were doing. It is my opinion that the whole Death Eater thing bothered her, since she mentioned it to Snape.

I really have problems understanding this dropping friends because of morality clash. I'm labelled "extreme feminist" by everyone who's been in my company for more than 5 min. I can keep my mouth shut abot many things and make compromises with many principles I have, but never with my anti-sexist beliefs. Yet I do have friends who are sexist, whether they realise it or not, and I do have friends who use sexist slurs and express sexist vies. I get mad, yell, proclaim myself deeply affronted, etc., but never even think about severing ties with a friend on this basis. People are more important than principles, that's a firm belief of mine. (And the main reason why I don't think Severus's reasons for fighting the war are any less admirable than James's or the Order's.) It's how I see things, and that's why it's never crossed my mind that Lily should have left Severus earlier. I think she put an end to it when there was almost nothing else to be done, and not because she didn't want to tarnish herself by association. Friends are more important than public opinion after all.

Yeah, but Yoana, women have been subjugated for eons in history and championing anti-sexists views is not only right, but beneficial to society. As an esteemed Judge once said, 'it is not enough to spout feminist views, one must live them to make a difference.' However society changing as a whole does not happen over night and so it is understandable that you would not dump your friends with anti-sexists views, but try to help them see the light.

On the other hand, Snape's view was not a view that society held - or had ever held - as right in the majority. While the issue bears on morals, the Death Eaters were not merely subjugating all who were not pureblood (and in agreement with their beliefs), they also advanced the use of dark arts - harmful magic - to seek to propagate their ideology. Even in Snape's time that was true; budding DEs did it on a less atrocious level, but we were given an example in Mulciber v. Mary that using the dark arts against those opposing their views, was a contemporary practice - as were verbal attacks (including calling them mudbloods). In addition, Voldemort was already being called "you-know-who" in fear (as Lily did), due to the acts he was already taking against those opposing him at that time.

Thus there is a huge distinction because while you might aggresively express your view, those you are speaking to don't torture or enact evil against the feminists. If such a group existed (one that tortured, killed and otherwise harmed feminists), they would be no better than the DEs. I think you would be within your rights (morally) to disassociate yourself from a person who was in a group (or showing clear and convincing evidence of planning to be) - that was killing and torturing feminists - the moment you understood the situation was hopeless. This for moral reasons certainly, but also for your mental health, personal safety and general reputation - for how hypocritical would you be to remain 'best friends' with a person who was a part of a group (or planning to be) that was killing or torturing feminists - and already attacking them verbally and deeply interested in methods that would be used to attack them physically later?

Lily knew the situation was hopeless before she broke off her relationship with Snape. He was deeply interested in the dark arts and even creating dark arts curses, which she knew. He was already friends with other budding DEs and likely participating with them in the verbal attacks against those they opposed (calling all muggleborns, mudbloods, and belittling muggles, etc.) and possibly even participating in the less atrocious dark magic 'pranking' of those opposed to their view (less atrocious as compared to Voldemort's acts). Additionally, we don't know how long Lily suspected that Snape was planning to join up with the DEs - but even excluding that, there was enough evidence for Lily to understand the direction in which Snape was headed and his determination not to vere from that path. So Lily calling off the relationship sooner would have been a healthy thing to do under the circumstances, imo.

I only meant to illustrate my view on friendship :lol:

The evidence I see in the books points to Snape's friends playing nasty tricks on people, or trying to, using legal Dark Magic (Lots of it is - curses, hexes, and jinxes are all over Hogwarts!), of which Lily disapproved. Nothing more.Lily said what they did was evil. That sounds like a little bit more than just a hex. I'm betting it was the Imperius Curse, but we may never know. Besides, we do know they did become Death Eaters and at the time aspired to do so. Lily's reaction would be no different than giving up on a friend getting too deeply involved in skinhead activities.

I only meant to illustrate my view on friendship :lol:

Oh. :lol:

Are you confident this is the only way to take her statement? It seemed to me she meant that she can't pretend not to notice where he was heading, rather than not be herself. It's usually best to take sentences within context.
Actually what I meant was I believe morals were a strong part of Lily's personality, and she had to turn a blind eye towards them whenever she was around Snape, therefore ignoring a large part of herself. She was a very strong believer in her morals too, if she joined the Order later on and fought for what she believed in. I think that whenever she was with Snape she had to pretend that these opposing morals didn't exist between them.

I don't think there is any canon regarding what happened when Lily and James started dating - nothing - so this is pure conjecture.
We know Snape never lost an opportunity to hex James in seventh year. I interpretted it as jealousy (also based on Snape's words about James to Lily before SWM).

She didn't say she was pretending in the sense that she wasn't herself with Snape. I always took that statement to mean that she couldn't go on pretending that what Snape was doing - Dark Arts and calling muggleborns Mudblood - was okay.
I took it to mean that Lily turned a blind eye on her morals with Snape, or she put them at the back of her mind whenever she was with him, because she knew they had very conflicting views. But Lily's morals were a large part of her, and she was in the middle of a war based on these morals. It was getting harder and harder to pretend.

I've been musing about something for a while. Some people consider Lily a bad friend to Snape, right? She didn't ask him how he was after the werewolf incident, she called him ungrateful, she told him she didn't like his other friends, she flirted with James in SWM, and she coldly broke up with Snape while he trying to apologize. And I'm sure the Lily-haters can come up a million other reasons she was a bad friend. So if Lily is such a bad friend, why do some people dislike the fact she broke up with Snape? Why would it be wanted that Snape continue his friendship with someone who apparently didn't care about him? If Lily was such a bad friend who constantly fought with Snape, why bother remaining friends with her? Snape had his Death Eater friends. Did he really need her? So in a way, Lily breaking it off with Snape would be the best thing for him. You don't want to continue a decaying friendship with a rotten friend, do you? And having the other person breaking it off just saves you the responsibility of doing it yourself. I don't know...this was something I was just thinking about. (And for the record, I love Lily. Don't think I'm a hater!)

As a poster who is not all too fond of Lily I can say, that I certainly don’t think she should keep a friendship if she was not interested in it. Lily broke off her friendship with Snape, because she wanted out for a reason. I don’t think that’s wrong, really.

I know after DH that Snape and Lily enjoyed a friendship that held together despite their differences, of a home life vastly different, different Houses and a totally different everything. They shared that for almost five years until Lily may have started looking at James differently. Seeing the enmity between Snape and James; Lily was probably taking Snape's side until the werewolf incident when we first see her behave coldly to Snape. I personally think from what I saw of that memory that Lily started wondering about James and the fact he was good though he still had a swelled head in her opinion.

By the SWM she has more or less taken a stance and she has IMO chosen to break off Snape's friendship and by her own admission in TPT decided that she could not pretend anymore. Now that implies to me that she was pretending for a while and since she broke off with Snape the night of the SWM I came to the conclusion that she used the SWM and Snape calling her a really wrong word to break off the friendship.

Had she been the friend she was before she started pretending, I am sure she would have had a few well deserved words to say to Snape, but I also think she would have kept the friendship because she would have understood the state of mind Snape was in when he called her a mudblood. While he was very wrong, I also think, Lily would have understood and Snape himself we see was ashamed enough to come and be prepared to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room, where he was all alone and an action which in my view was sheer foolishness.

But when Lily opened the door of the common room, I think she did not handle it well. Like zgirnius says, she did not give an opportunity for Snape to speak his bit, and she took what I think was an unilateral action between two friends who shared an awful lot.

And Snape did not share my views on Lily. I think he thought very differently, because he loves her. I can understand that. And that’s why I feel he was probably shocked on 2 counts; one it was a pretence of a friendship on her side and two she broke off her friendship for ever, without giving him an indication anything was wrong. Sure, she had been arguing for years; but she was still friends with Snape; now suddenly she was calling it quits IMO.

He went away; but he was unable to stop loving her, and as I saw it, that love ultimately won the war and helped Harry Potter survive IMO.

Originally Posted by zgirnius
The evidence I see in the books points to Snape's friends playing nasty tricks on people, or trying to, using legal Dark Magic (Lots of it is - curses, hexes, and jinxes are all over Hogwarts!), of which Lily disapproved. Nothing more.

Lily said what they did was evil. That sounds like a little bit more than just a hex. I'm betting it was the Imperius Curse, but we may never know. Besides, we do know they did become Death Eaters and at the time aspired to do so. Lily's reaction would be no different than giving up on a friend getting too deeply involved in skinhead activities.

I agree with ComicBook in this. In HP it is my understanding that there is no such thing as 'legal dark magic' - all dark magic is illegal and outlawed. Snape's spells that were making rounds in the school were not dark (i.e., levicorpus). His dark curse that we know of, sectumsempra, did not make rounds. The levicorpus and other like spells, jinxes and hexes would be construed as "illegal light magic" if used in hex wars. Just like using "accio" to steal money from someone's pocket would be illegal light magic.

It is rather immaterial because Lily disapproved of it all. :lol: However, she did distinguish illegal light magic from out and out dark magic.

This isn't the relationship I saw in the books at all. I don't really see how Snape could act like a big brother if he was blinded by all of these romantic feelings for Lily. He'd become insanely jealous when Lily started dating James, instead of being happy for her.

I agree. I don't see how they could have stayed as just friends, the end of the friendship was inevitable IMO because of all the romantic feelings Snape had for her and because she could not return them. Such relationships when they get to that stage can only go one way IMO, become romantic or have to end.

Lily's reaction would be no different than giving up on a friend getting too deeply involved in skinhead activities.
I really like the skinhead analogy - probably as it's something I can relate to. In my teens I was aware of a group of skinheads who caused trouble and I knew some people who hung out with them. I didn't want to go near them with a barge pole - and if any of my friends had got involved I would probably have been very concerned.

I took it to mean that Lily turned a blind eye on her morals with Snape, or she put them at the back of her mind whenever she was with him, because she knew they had very conflicting views. But Lily's morals were a large part of her, and she was in the middle of a war based on these morals. It was getting harder and harder to pretend.
I'm not sure a 16 year old would use the term "I can't pretend anymore" to describe the situation you suggest - I think she would be more likely to say "I don't like the things they do" -which is kind of what she does say.
I don't see what "pretending" she was doing in your interpretation - unless you mean "I can't pretend to be your friend anymore" which I don't think is right. I don't think she was pretending to be his friend - She was his friend but what she was saying was "I can't pretend that what you're doing is okay"
To me that fits with the "making excuses" line as well. She sounds as if she was trying to justify SNape's choices, to make them seem no worse than what other people were doing.
SO basically I don't think that Lily was saying that she had been pretending to be Snape's friend.

I've always been prone to examining the historical context of the "mudblood" incident, and the end of Snape and Lily's friendship, for I believe that to step back and analyze it from a literary perspective might blind us all to the chilling aura of the time in which Snape and Lily were at Hogwarts. At the beginning of PS/SS, when Dumbledore drops Harry off at the Dursleys with Minerva, he says that the Wizarding World has had "precious little" to celebrate for the past eleven years, which would indicate that the terrorizing regime of Voldemort truly burst onto the scene in the Wizarding World when James, Lily, Snape, Sirius, etc. were ten years old. Therefore, by the time they were fifteen, I would presume a true war was waging outside Hogwarts, and muggles and muggleborns, or "mudbloods and scum," people of Lily's kind were being tortured and murdered in brutal and excruciating ways, and the students must have heard about all the disappearances and deaths while they were at school, as Harry and co did in OotP and HBP. The term "mudblood" was not merely a cruel racial slur, but a frightening term that targeted people like Lily for persecution and death, and marked them as unworthy of life, so when Snape used it on her, IMO, it must have hurt to her to the depths of her soul (She expresses this hurt by screaming at James, insulting Snape, and storming away. :( ), and she must have already felt betrayed that Snape was using this term profusely and "aiming to be" a Death Eater, and make a career of killing people of her kind (I know I would immediately end a friendship with someone aspiring to do that, whether the people in question were my kind or not). IMO, it wasn't just a clash of morals and political ideology, it was a true conflict of "ways" during a dangerous time in which ideology reached the epitome of importance.

I think it depends on your definition of morality. If my friends thought it was a lot of fun to prank people, I would not go along with it. If my friends thought it was okay to use slurs, I would stop hanging around with them. It is just the way I am. (Maybe it was too many years of having my mother remind me that people judge you by the company you keep. :lol:)
Yup. Me too. I think that's why I don't think that Lily did anything wrong by ending her friendship with Snape. I would have done it sooner, and not waited until they turned on me. My mum never cared for the company I kept, though. Ah, those were the good days! :cool:

But Lily was a bit of a free-spirit. She didn't seem to mind that kind of thing, or else she wouldn't have been attracted to James, in my opinion. But once the joking and pranking crossed what I would consider the line she had drawn in her moral code, she could no longer justify it, in my opinion.
Exactly. I think that Lily was prone to take things in context rather than judging anything to be dark or otherwise. For example, Lupin. I think that she preferred to judge him by his personality, rather than his curse, like Snape did. I think that's the reason why she sounded cold when Snape talked about his theory. She'd have seen it too, intelligent as she was, but she would not have exposed him or thought badly of him for what he could not help being.
I also think that she found some of Snape's spells funny, like Levicorpus. I think that she did appreciate the funnier pranks that James and co. came up with. Like the head engorgement hex that James and Sirius did on Aubrey. Sure, it was a violation of rules, because they'd cursed another student, but I think that Lily would have found it funny. After all, Lily is described as being cheeky and vivacious. I think she'd have a good sense of humour.
I don't think there is any canon regarding what happened when Lily and James started dating - nothing - so this is pure conjecture.
Not really, IMO. We know that Snape continued to pick fights with James. Plus, it goes with Snape's character to be jealous, IMO. Why wouldn't he be? 20 years later, he still can't let it go.
She didn't say she was pretending in the sense that she wasn't herself with Snape. I always took that statement to mean that she couldn't go on pretending that what Snape was doing - Dark Arts and calling muggleborns Mudblood - was okay.
But, Lily never thought that any of it was okay, and told Snape as much when they were together. She's quite vocal on the subject. There was never any pretending on that issue.
I agree. I think dropping a friend because your morals are different is a BIG mistake - and I talk from experience.
It's not just a case of simple morality though, is it? Lily knows what Voldemort is doing. The war was in full swing at that time, people were being killed with their families. Even children were targeted by the Death Eaters (Inferi from the lake). And her friend couldn't wait to join up.

Also, I think that they did drift apart. In SWM, Lily and Snape aren't together before Lily steps in to stop James. Snape never even looks at Lily. Surely that seems a bit off for 'best friends'? IMO, they'd been drifting apart since the previous memory, at the very least.

Also, Lily could have been more forgiving. I know that if I had a friend who was doing things I didn't like but they still wanted to be my friend, I would tell them that I would always be their friend even though I didn't like what they're doing. Lily didn't really leave that option open. She just shut him out completely.
IMO, she had been leaving that option for a while. It was not just that they had different ideas. Snape calling Lily a mudblood was the last straw. That did play a huge part in Lily ending it and not leaving him an option.

People are more important than principles, that's a firm belief of mine. (And the main reason why I don't think Severus's reasons for fighting the war are any less admirable than James's or the Order's.)
But Yoana, don't you think that Lily thought the same? She thought that people were important, and Snape didn't, obviously. Lily is deeply upset because Snape doesn't seem to care about what his friends do to people, and because Snape calls people of her birth mudblood. I don't think that it was ever just about principles for Lily. Snape hates Lupin because he's a werewolf, while Lily doesn't. Snape was willing to kill people he didn't even know, who had done him no wrong, because he believed in the principle of purifying the society by any means. So, I'd say that at the time, Lily was the one who put people over principles, and not Snape.

Friends are more important than public opinion after all.
I don't think that Lily cared about public opinion at all. Snape was clearly not popular (for good reason, as we now know), and Lily stuck by him, to the point of lying and making excuses for him. She saw the side of Snape that everyone else saw though, when he insulted her.

When Snape called her a mudblood, he too, was pretty badly humiliated and was hanging upside down showing off his underpants for the world to see. And James was threatening to remove those as well. Snape and James/Sirius had also hexed each other and there was an allround mess IMO.
Didn't Sirius make fun of James after Lily left? Yet, James didn't lash out at him. He'd been humiliated too. I don't think that's any justification for racially insulting your supposed 'best friend'. Worse, Snape completely ignored her, speaking 'about' her, as if she wasn't even worthy of being acknowledged.

But I also think she knew Snape held her in the highest regard; and at the end of a humiliating day when Snape still comes to apologize for having stepped way over the line;
I think that Snape would have received a hero's welcome in the Slytherin House. He never caved in to James, fought off the two of them the best he could, and insulted a mudblood.

I thought Lily would understand the circumstances under which Snape spoke those words; she could have still broken off her friendhip later, because Snape's friends made her uncomfortable and she could not in all honesty say she was okay with it.
I can't help but think of how much more humiliating the experience must have been for Lily. Being brushed aside and insulted by the very person she had been defending, making excuses for, and lying for, all those years. How hard would have it been for her to face her friends after that? I hope her other friends were kind to her.
I would have lost a lot of respect for Lily if she had decided to overlook it. She would have looked like a total doormat.

It showed he truly was sorry for calling her so IMO.
I don't think that it was just the incident that triggered such a reaction. It just alienated Lily long enough for her to take a step back and look at the relationship objectively, and realize just what kind of a person she was standing up for. She did have some time to think it over. As she says, it's not just that he called her a mudblood, it's that he calls everyone else of her birth mudblood.

And Lily did not take that insult lying down, and she was correct in that as well; she spoke equally harshly to Snape, hitting him where it would hurt most; calling on his personal hygiene, when she knew how he had been brought up IMO.
Exactly. The incident made her angry enough at him to think about their relationship. When you're angry at someone, you tend to think about their worst qualities and forget their good ones. I think that once Lily stopped thinking of him as a friend, she was able to see that the good in Snape was outweighed by the bad.

May I ask what the hell is SWM? I keep seeing it and have asked those around me who read the books what it is but they are at loss like I am. In the words of the idiot Pauline Hanson - PLEASE EXPLAIN.....
Why, it stands for Single White Male, of course! There are those who might tell you otherwise, but do NOT believe them, for they are LYING!!! *nods gravely*

We have no evidence that Snape, or his friends, were breaking the law while Snape was friends with Lily.
It's not a court of law, zgirnius. We know that these people joined up with Voldemort shortly later, that they committed terrible atrocities in the name of purifying the race. One could argue that Draco was not guilty of using an unforgivable, because he only said the curse partially, but would it be really true? Based on who they turned out to be, I don't think that it would be far-fetched to say that they were breaking the law, because Lily seems to be objective about it, to realize what is dark magic and what isn't.

And if they were, Lily was certainly remiss (as a citizen and as a friend) in not reporting it. I could see not reporting Sev, out of loyalty - but not the others.
We saw the tail end of an argument about this very issue. I think it's entirely possible that Lily was going to report them, and that Snape was trying to talk her out of it by dismissing it as a bit of fun. They were arguing about the company he kept, after all, and the incident mentioned.

For example, Lupin. I think that she preferred to judge him by his personality, rather than his curse, like Snape did. I think that's the reason why she sounded cold when Snape talked about his theory. She'd have seen it too, intelligent as she was, but she would not have exposed him or thought badly of him for what he could not help being.
Exactly! :agree: Lily was quite intelligent and talented, and I believe she did notice that Lupin was gone during the full moons, but, unlike Snape, didn't choose to hold his illness against him because she could see his inner beatuy (I presume they were fellow prefects), and judged people by their actions, rather than elements of themselves that they could not control, like blood status or lycanthropy. I've heard it asserted that Lily would have regretted not listening to Snape when he tried to out the Marauders in the forest, and I find that bewildering-- I believe that Lily, who was a compassionate girl, would have been touched by what Lupin's friends had done to ease his pain, by becoming animagi.

I also think that she found some of Snape's spells funny, like Levicorpus. I think that she did appreciate the funnier pranks that James and co. came up with. Like the head engorgement hex that James and Sirius did on Aubrey. Sure, it was a violation of rules, because they'd cursed another student, but I think that Lily would have found it funny. After all, Lily is described as being cheeky and vivacious. I think she'd have a good sense of humour.
I see her as similiar to Lupin in that aspect-- she enjoyed pranking and funny hexes, but she disliked hexing when it escalated into mean-spirited bullying, when it was truly hurtful and damaging to others; I definitely don't think she was a rule-stickler-- we know she got a "few warning letters" after all, and liked to experiment with magic herself!

She thought that people were important, and Snape didn't, obviously. Lily is deeply upset because Snape doesn't seem to care about what his friends do to people, and because Snape calls people of her birth mudblood. I don't think that it was ever just about principles for Lily. Snape hates Lupin because he's a werewolf, while Lily doesn't. Snape was willing to kill people he didn't even know, who had done him no wrong, because he believed in the principle of purifying the society by any means. So, I'd say that at the time, Lily was the one who put people over principles, and not Snape.
Perfectly put. :agree:

I don't think that Lily cared about public opinion at all. Snape was clearly not popular (for good reason, as we now know), and Lily stuck by him, to the point of lying and making excuses for him.
Yes, she was undoubtedly questioned for being friends with Snape, who was detested by much of the student body, but she wasn't about to abandon her friend based on peer pressure, because of her loyalty.

She saw the side of Snape that everyone else saw though, when he insulted her.
I think, in that moment, she was forced to see Snape for what he truly was, other than just insulting the company he kept, and the activites they engaged in; it must have been like a slap in the face for her, and to think that it happened in front of people who had probably been telling Lily to ditch Snape for years. Poor Lily. :(

Didn't Sirius make fun of James after Lily left? Yet, James didn't lash out at him. He'd been humiliated too. I don't think that's any justification for racially insulting your supposed 'best friend'.
Think of all the times the Slytherins taunt Harry in GoF, and Hermione pulls him away-- does he call her a mudblood?

Therefore, by the time they were fifteen, I would presume a true war was waging outside Hogwarts, and muggles and muggleborns, or "mudbloods and scum," people of Lily's kind were being tortured and murdered in brutal and excruciating ways, and the students must have heard about all the disappearances and deaths while they were at school, as Harry and co did in OotP and HBP.

This is very vivdly described by you, but not as far as I can see, substantiated by the canon. Consider this statement by Sirius Black, a school contemporary of Severus and Lily, concerning his younger brother and what that younger brother would have known:

'Were - were your parents Death Eaters as well?'

'No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.'


(emphasis mine)

Well Snape grew up with dark witchs and wizards and purebloods. It an sort of become a first-thing-on-your-mind type thing.

This is very vivdly described by you, but not as far as I can see, substantiated by the canon. Consider this statement by Sirius Black, a school contemporary of Severus and Lily, concerning his younger brother and what that younger brother would have known:

'Were - were your parents Death Eaters as well?'

'No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.'


(emphasis mine)

I always thought Sirius was speaking about his parents specifically, and not about Regulus-- his parents would have seen Voldemort's "true colors" during his lifetime, when he was at school, and not, perhaps, when he was a child. It's not known when Sirius' parents gained their distaste for his brutality, even if it was after Regulus became directly involved. The basic idea of Voldemort's regime-- oppressing and wiping out muggleborns, was known, however, from the time he began gathering followers.

I stand by Dumbledore's statement, having "precious little" to celebrate in the Wizarding World since Lily and Snape were ten years old. He did lead the war effort on the Light Side, after all. :cool:

Also, Voldemort had established his regime of terror enough to be widely feared by the time of SWM-- Lily calls him "You-Know-Who."

Snape was willing to kill people he didn't even know, who had done him no wrong, because he believed in the principle of purifying the society by any meansThere is absolutely NO canon to support this statement. JKR expressed several reasons why people joined the Death Eaters and the pure blood mania was only one of them. Some people joined because they wanted an outlet for their violent behaviour - people like McNair (and probably Mulciber and Avery) while others join because they want power - like Snape - or because they want to stand behind the biggest bully in the playground. I do no think every Death Eater believed the Pure-blood elitism, nor do I think that every Death Eater was violent sadist who enjoyed torturing people.

Snape was in Slytherin and bowed to peer pressure to join the 'gang' most likely led by James' Slytherin counterpart Lucius Malfoy. In a way I think Snape was a bit like Peter Pettigrew's counterpart - not particularly liked by his fellow housemates but tolerated by them and allowed to join them for some reason. It would have been better all round if Peter and Severus had swapped houses - but then Severus wouldn't have been able to go undercover for the Order against Voldemort.

omg! i never thought of that comparison! i agree completely!!!!!!

Snape was in Slytherin and bowed to peer pressure to join the 'gang' most likely led by James' Slytherin counterpart Lucius Malfoy.
Canon? I was under the impression Snape actually enjoyed the dark arts and found them endlessly interesting. I also felt his prejudice was just as bad as his Slytherin buddies' and he was never pressured into it.

In a way I think Snape was a bit like Peter Pettigrew's counterpart - not particularly liked by his fellow housemates but tolerated by them and allowed to join them for some reason. It would have been better all round if Peter and Severus had swapped houses - but then Severus wouldn't have been able to go undercover for the Order against Voldemort.
Is there canon that says Peter was not particularly liked by his fellow housemates? Is there any canon that says Snape was not particularly liked by his fellow housemates (this one I'm actually not sure on - honest question).

Canon? I was under the impression Snape actually enjoyed the dark arts and found them endlessly interesting. I also felt his prejudice was just as bad as his Slytherin buddies' and he was never pressured into it.


Is there canon that says Peter was not particularly liked by his fellow housemates? Is there any canon that says Snape was not particularly liked by his fellow housemates (this one I'm actually not sure on - honest question).

No there isn't, as I recall. Both seemed to be liked by their housemates. Peter was one of the gang in the Marauders and Snape was friends with Mulciber and Avery. Snape was warmly welcomed into his new house by Lucius Malfoy and apparently so well liked all around by his friends, that he chose them over Lily when he was made to choose. Snape also defended his friends when Lily indicated that she detested them and they were not good people.

No there isn't, as I recall. Both seemed to be liked by their housemates. Peter was one of the gang in the Marauders and Snape was friends with Mulciber and Avery. Snape was warmly welcomed into his new house by Lucius Malfoy and apparently so well liked all around by his friends, that he chose them over Lily when he was made to choose. Snape also defended his friends when Lily indicated that she detested them and they were not good people.
That's what I thought. I never got the impression Snape was pressured or unliked by his Slytherin friends, quite the opposite actually. He was drawn to them because of similar interests and goals. He could talk to them about things he could not talk about with Lily.

Well I have to disagree with that. Perseverance doesn't necessarily stem from subbornnes, and conviction is not all that good, in my opinion. I personally have noticed that subbornness obscures the judgment and inteferes with rational thought, because it makes people oblivious to other viewpoints and different opinions. Plus stubbornness practically excludes humility, which I personally value as one of the most remarkable character traits in humans.

Those are all very true of being stubborn, but stubbornness isn't always a negative quality. Stubbornness can come in handy, as it did with Harry several times, such as how he never let go of his belief that the Dark Arts and Voldemort are bad. Stubbornness can be a good quality, too. :)

she was making asssumptions when she said they were bad people. snape stuck by his friends. lily ended it because she wanted him to be friends with only her...?

No, she was using facts that she knew were true. She knew that they used Dark Magic against someone in her house. She did not end the friendship because she only wanted Snape to be friends with her, IMO, she ended it because he was befriending people that were "evil," in her words.

I think ignisia summed up accurately. Lily should have gone to an adult. Especially if Snape was joining an organisation that was equal to the terrorist organization of today IMO. I also don’t think Lily needed to show how mad she was at taht time. I however expected her to show how sad she was breaking off a friendship that meant a lot to her at one time, even though she did not care for that friendship at that time. But I did not see that in the books. She was cool, raising an eyebrow and brushing off Snape. She said her piece and left. She could have been IMO talking about something very unconcerned to her, rather than break off what was a friendship for more than five years.

Lily was angry and had every right to be angry about Snape. He was betraying her, IMO. He was the one who caused Lily to end the friendship in the first place - naturally she was angry with him. Even though people can be best friends for a long period of time, that doesn't mean they're going to be the most compassionate people when ending the friendship. Lily was angry and hurt by what was done to her, and I have behaved in a similar fashion when I have broken friendships, so I think it's very understandable.

I have big problems with that, most of them personal. I personally place friends above morals, and try to stick with them and help them, especially when they seem in need - hence my probably wrong conviction that this is right and *** other wat round is wrong. But still I disagree that Lily broke up with Severus because he clashed with her morals and she needed to be clear of him. Many would have done that, but that's not a reason to assume she did it dfor those reasons too, just like because I'd have stuck with him doesn't mean I have the right to expect Lily to do the same or judge her for not doing it. I believe she just came to a point where it was impossible for her to choose otherwise and she knew it. It could be argued that she could have tried further to talk him out of it, but I think Lily knew him well enough to be aware she couldn't do it.

I think it depends on the severity of what the friend is doing and how strong one values the morals that makes it right for him or her to end the friendship. While I do not agree with smoking (mostly from the knowledge of how it feels to lose someone due to smoking) and drug use, I would not abandon a friend if he or she got involved with that; instead I would attempt to help the friend quit the use of them and try to help that person along the way. There is a point when I cannot be friends with anyone any longer, however. If a person does something such as murdering - something I abhor since I see the value in human life - I will drop the friendship. I think that's the case when it comes to putting morals above friendships because, to some people such as myself, there are morals that are too important for one to ignore in a friendship.

Anyway, back on topic. I think Lily was right to end the friendship. She was getting to the point that there was no other choice for but to either continue being friends with Snape or ignore what he was doing or ending the friendship. She already tried to get him to stop and he didn't listen, so she had no choice but to end the friendship. The way Lily behaved in SWM doesn't suggest such close friendship as they had considered themselves to be before, which leads me to believe that her attitude changes towards Snape at that point. If a friend realizes that a person is doing something that goes against his or her morals and no longer feels comfortable being in a friendship and/or doesn't enjoy being around the other friend, I think the person has the right to end the friendship. Both of them may have been the case for Lily. :)

You may be right; but I just felt that Lily did not take into account the humiliation Snape went through that particular day and did not give him the leeway of what happened for Snape to speak so harshly IMO. And she was harsh in return too IMO. That was why I felt she may have used that as an excuse for breaking up a relationship that was in her mind almost non-existent at that time. :)

Snape says in The Prince's Tale that he didn't mean to call Lily a Mudblood and Lily heard that. But Lily retaliated by asking why she should be any different. If Lily knew that Snape underwent humiliation in Snape's Worst Memory - and I'm sure she had, even though it might not be given in the text - it didn't matter to her; the Mudblood comment was the last straw for it reminded her that she could not pretend any longer about Snape's nature and how he was willing to use the same derogatory term against people like her.

However I digress as Lily's 'Sev' was never in Gryffindor. BUT IF HE HAD BEEN.......?

If that were the case, then it would require Snape to have a different personality and values. Snape may not have been courageous at the age of eleven, which is normal because courage isn't something that one is born with; it is something that is earned over the course of one's life. Or Snape didn't value courage that highly and valued other qualities such as intelligence and ambition, something that is - in my honest opinion - proven by Snape's comment about Gryffindors being "brawny than brainy." IMO, it is as difficult to speculate what could have happened if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor because it would require a change of who Snape was somehow at the age of eleven, as is the case with the speculation about whether or not Lily would have developed romantic feelings if Snape hadn't been attracted to loathsome people and acts.

Is there any canon that says Snape was not particularly liked by his fellow housemates (this one I'm actually not sure on - honest question).

I'm not sure if he was disliked, but he was definitely unpopular. Harry mentions that it was obvious that Snape was popular in SWM, I believe.

I'm not sure if he was disliked, but he was definitely unpopular. Harry mentions that it was obvious that Snape was popular in SWM, I believe.
No I know there were comments about him being unpopular, but I can't remember canon specifically saying he was unpopular within his own house.

The way Lily behaved in SWM doesn't suggest such close friendship as they had considered themselves to be before, which leads me to believe that her attitude changes towards Snape at that point. If a friend realizes that a person is doing something that goes against his or her morals and no longer feels comfortable being in a friendship and/or doesn't enjoy being around the other friend, I think the person has the right to end the friendship. Both of them may have been the case for Lily.
I agree. Lily had every right to end the friendship if she was not comfortable being in it or just wasn't enjoying Snape's company anymore.

No I know there were comments about him being unpopular, but not specifically unpopular within his own house.

I don't know if he was unpopular in his own house as well. :hmm: Sirius mentions that Snape had a group of friends that all grew to be Death Eaters (which may not be completely reliable since some of them - namely Bellatrix - weren't supposed to be in Hogwarts at the same time as he was). Even so, they might not considered "true friends" because no one stood up for him in SWM besides Lily.

Yes well put beatifically and someone (McGonagall I think) mentioned Peter as being a bit of a hanger-oner not too sure of the spelling here. However I think this discussion took place with Madame Rosemerta and others in her pub and Harry was under the invisiblity cloak at the time.

But when Albus said he thought they (sometimes) sorted too soon I got the impression he thought Snape was courageous enough for a Gryffindor and he had the sword too. I meant that if Snape hadn't been in Slytherin he might not have been so drawn to the dark arts - it's just that the peer group were into it and already recruiting for Voldemort it seems and since you spend so much time with your house and Snape seemed so much like a lonely misfit sometimes then like those people drawn into those wacky religious cults he was drawn into the DE mob and at least felt appreciated and wanted there. Remember he was only eleven when he first went to Hogwarts and that's young enough to be drawn into the wrong type of gang who then had plenty of time to cultivate him into becoming a DE. Get 'em while they're young and impressionable would have been Voldemort's idea.

Yes well put beatifically and someone (McGonagall I think) mentioned Peter as being a bit of a hanger-oner not too sure of the spelling here. However I think this discussion took place with Madame Rosemerta and others in her pub and Harry was under the invisiblity cloak at the time.

But when Albus said he thought they (sometimes) sorted too soon I got the impression he thought Snape was courageous enough for a Gryffindor and he had the sword too. I meant that if Snape hadn't been in Slytherin he might not have been so drawn to the dark arts - it's just that the peer group were into it and already recruiting for Voldemort it seems and since you spend so much time with your house and Snape seemed so much like a lonely misfit sometimes then like those people drawn into those wacky religious cults he was drawn into the DE mob and at least felt appreciated and wanted there. Remember he was only eleven when he first went to Hogwarts and that's young enough to be drawn into the wrong type of gang who then had plenty of time to cultivate him into becoming a DE. Get 'em while they're young and impressionable would have been Voldemort's idea.

Actually, Snape was quite well versed in Dementors and Azkaban as a youngster, something we did not see in the young potential Gryffindors (recall Harry being attacked by one on the train). Plus, Snape wanted to be sorted into Slytherin and that had to be based on its repuation and/or family affiliation (in the latter case he would have heard about it from his mum). Those children in canon who 'desired' Slytherin were usually from pureblood families (which Snape was not) or into the dark arts (which Snape was) or both (which Snape was not).

JKR told us that even in the past, Slytherin was not only full of kids who were into the dark arts - some just got sorted there (Slughorn for instance). Obviously you could pick friends in Slytherin that were not into dark arts, budding death eaters or blood purists- but your friends would likely be limited. Nonetheless, Snape was not against these ideas and made friends with those who shared his interests. Further, according to Sirius, Snape came armed with more curses under his belt than most 7th years. Sirius would know as they were likely used against him as a huge blood traitor.

Imo, canon evidence shows that Snape sought out others like himself, rather than others seeking to cultivate an interest in him in the dark arts - or in Voldemort. We know his opinion of muggles was already very low and his love for Slytherin already very high - before he ever stepped foot on Hogwarts grounds. He attempted to get Lily to join him and was deeply unhappy when she didn't make it - but that tells one something about the character of the two individuals at that time.

I wonder where he got his knowledge from before he went to Hogwarts. I thought his father was muggle and not a wizard and his mother seemed so downtrodden by his father who probably resented the fact she could do magic and he couldn't - so she mustn't have used much magic - so where did he learn it all then?

Probably his mother or books. However, for the Snape-centric conversation we should prolly go to the Snape thread. :)

I don't believe the teenage Snape was pressured into becoming a Death Eater; he already a harbored an interest in the Dark Arts and an anti-muggle attitude before he came to Hogwarts, as evidenced by his remarks about Petunia and Sirius' statement that he came with an array of dark hexes up his sleeve; IMO, he didn't need any pressure to join the Dark Side. Lily was definitely not Snape's only friend-- he had Mulciber and Avery (Their absence from SWM could be justified by a number of different reasons, and they may not have been in Snape's year), the Malfoys in his later years, and presumably other Death Eater friends as well, as he hung around in a gang of Slytherins who "nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." I suppose they would have been impressed by his intellectual brilliance, and accepted him because of that, and while I believe that Snape wanted to join the Dark Side because of his love for the Dark Arts and his hunger for power, I do think that he believed in the Pureblood Ideology, especially since, like Voldemort, he had a muggle father whom he hated-- he called all of the muggleborns in the school mudbloods, and was content to participate (In whatever way) in wiping out those of lesser blood until Lily was targeted; had Voldemort killed the Longbottoms, Snape would have gone on being a Death Eater for the rest of his days, IMO.

I can't imagine Snape's cowering mother teaching him the dark arts - telling him about them but not teaching otherwise she might have had the courage to stand up to her bullying husband. So my question had he been taught before he met Lily and Petunia in the park the first time. They were rather young then. I suspect they hung out together during some of the school holidays after that for a couple of years at least so he would have discussed the dark arts sometimes and this could have been when Lily started not enjoying his company so much and they started growing away from each other - being less close than they had previously.

There is absolutely NO canon to support this statement.
It is canon that Snape would have stood by and not cared when innocent people were being murdered. It's canon that he was working with the people who were murdering without second thought. I just can't imagine that Snape fought in a war that bloody, on Voldemort's side, and never had to kill anyone. Voldemort would have seen that as a weakness. Besides, if his speciality was the Sectumsempra, something for which only he seems to know the countercurse, I don't see how his victims survived. We saw it's results on Draco.

Some people joined because they wanted an outlet for their violent behaviour - people like McNair (and probably Mulciber and Avery) while others join because they want power - like Snape - or because they want to stand behind the biggest bully in the playground.
I agree. And Snape would have done anything for power at that point. Why should he be queasy about killing for something he believed in? Unlike Draco, he wasn't all talk.

I do no think every Death Eater believed the Pure-blood elitism, nor do I think that every Death Eater was violent sadist who enjoyed torturing people.
Quite true. But, we know that Snape called every muggleborn Mudblood, considered muggles to be irrelevant, that he believed in the pureblood agenda (HBP), and that he was sadistic. And Sectumsempra can certainly be classified as violent.

I've heard it asserted that Lily would have regretted not listening to Snape when he tried to out the Marauders in the forest, and I find that bewildering-- I believe that Lily, who was a compassionate girl, would have been touched by what Lupin's friends had done to ease his pain, by becoming animagi.
Yup. She cared about friendships, and to learn that James, Sirius and Peter risked so much to help their friend, that would have attracted her to James even more, IMO.

I see her as similiar to Lupin in that aspect-- she enjoyed pranking and funny hexes, but she disliked hexing when it escalated into mean-spirited bullying, when it was truly hurtful and damaging to others; I definitely don't think she was a rule-stickler-- we know she got a "few warning letters" after all, and liked to experiment with magic herself!
Exactly. She shows signs of spiritedness early on. She steals Petunia's mail, talks back to Slughorn, and can't help being amused by Snape being brought down (or up) by his own spell. If she'd been all about rules and proper decorum, she'd have been in Ravenclaw, IMO. I think that Lily was able to enjoy a good prank, which was why I think she thought some of Snape's spells were funny.

Didn't Sirius make fun of James after Lily left? Yet, James didn't lash out at him. He'd been humiliated too. I don't think that's any justification for racially insulting your supposed 'best friend'. Worse, Snape completely ignored her, speaking 'about' her, as if she wasn't even worthy of being acknowledged.

Harry too, cast the levicorpus on Ron. And they laughed about it. Had Harry done the same to Draco and that too in front of everybody else or even to Ron in front of others, I don’t think they would have laughed about it IMO. James and Sirius joked with each other. With Snape IMO it was in front of the whole school, almost.

I can't help but think of how much more humiliating the experience must have been for Lily. Being brushed aside and insulted by the very person she had been defending, making excuses for, and lying for, all those years. How hard would have it been for her to face her friends after that? I hope her other friends were kind to her.
I would have lost a lot of respect for Lily if she had decided to overlook it. She would have looked like a total doormat.

She did not overlook it. She called him Snivellus and told him to wash his underpants and a few other things as well. She did not overlook it IMO.

I don't think that it was just the incident that triggered such a reaction. It just alienated Lily long enough for her to take a step back and look at the relationship objectively, and realize just what kind of a person she was standing up for. She did have some time to think it over. As she says, it's not just that he called her a mudblood, it's that he calls everyone else of her birth mudblood.

I respectfully disagree. I think Lily used this to break off her friendship, a friendship that was at that time almost non-existent in her mind. I don’t blame her for the breaking off, mainly because she was not a friend to Snape in her mind at that time, and breaking off the friendship would be better IMO for Snape and herself, instead of pretending to be good and best friends.

Having said that, I also think as a person, who was against evil in all forms and had ceased to think of Snape as a friend because he too, was associating in such evil activities, she should have been a bit more responsible than what she was IMO.

She could have gone to Dumbledore or she could have instead of arguing with him, like she had been doing for years, given him instead an ultimatum, telling him to choose them or her friendship. She does not and takes an unilateral stance on a friendship that was for quite sometime very close IMO.

Lily was angry and had every right to be angry about Snape. He was betraying her, IMO. He was the one who caused Lily to end the friendship in the first place - naturally she was angry with him. Even though people can be best friends for a long period of time, that doesn't mean they're going to be the most compassionate people when ending the friendship. Lily was angry and hurt by what was done to her, and I have behaved in a similar fashion when I have broken friendships, so I think it's very understandable.

What was done to her? I don’t understand. He betrayed her? I acyually thought she was the one who was misleading him, because she was not a friend; she was pretending to be one and taht was actually not fair to Snape IMO.

Snape says in The Prince's Tale that he didn't mean to call Lily a Mudblood and Lily heard that. But Lily retaliated by asking why she should be any different. If Lily knew that Snape underwent humiliation in Snape's Worst Memory - and I'm sure she had, even though it might not be given in the text - it didn't matter to her; the Mudblood comment was the last straw for it reminded her that she could not pretend any longer about Snape's nature and how he was willing to use the same derogatory term against people like her.

Lily retaliated that night by saying why she was different; when she was okay for years when she knew Snape was calling everyone of Lily’s birth by the same name IMO. That’s exactly what I’m saying too. She knew the humiliation Snape suffered and the circumstance in which he was in when he called her a mudblood, and yet she is unable to look at that aspect, just like she is unable to look at Snape in concern when he was in danger of being bitten or even dead.

At that time she calls Snape ungrateful and at the night of the SWM, she calls off their friendship. Because in her mind I think she stopped being a friend to Snape and she broke off using the SWM as an excuse. That’s what I feel anyway. :shrug:

While you can say that it is canon that Snape was a Death Eater, there is NO canon to support the assumption that he had ever killed anyone. It is all assumption and conjecture. Having said that I personally think he probably had killed at least one person, but we can only guess.
Your statement I was responding to was:
Snape was willing to kill people he didn't even know, who had done him no wrong, because he believed in the principle of purifying the society by any meansYour statement assumes that you know Snape was "willing" or what he thought about it at all, which we can't know from the text. There is also canon to indicate that most Death Eaters don't really know what they will be asked to do (in terms of tortue and killing) until they are well into it by which time they can't back out. This is what happened to Regulus Black. And ultimately it is what happened to Snape.

Unlike Draco, he wasn't all talk.Okay - if you can tell where we see a 16/17 year old Snape (or any age actually) who has been asked to murder someone and is "willing" to do so give me the reference; I would love to read it.

It is canon that Snape would have stood by and not cared when innocent people were being murdered. It's canon that he was working with the people who were murdering without second thought.

It is canon that Draco would have stood by and not cared when innocent people were being murdered. It's canon that he was working with the people who were murdering without second thought.
So why is Snape unlike Draco?

And Sectumsempra can certainly be classified as violent.Sectumsempra can undoubtedly do a lot of harm, but the two times we see Snape use Sectumsempra it does relatively little damage;a gash in James's cheek and the removal of George's ear neither of which were even remotely fatal. Sev liked subtlety.

Actually I think Draco was more of a coward than Snape so we can't really compare them. However I don't think Snape killed anyone while he was a student at Hogwarts and may have been sneaky enough to have avoided it after he left school since we don't know much - if anything - what he actually did between leaving school and returning to Hogwarts as a teacher.

Sectumsempra can undoubtedly do a lot of harm, but the two times we see Snape use Sectumsempra it does relatively little damage;a gash in James's cheek and the removal of George's ear neither of which were even remotely fatal. Sev liked subtlety.

I actually agree with that. Snape certainly seemed shocked when he saw the damage that Harry did to Draco with sectumsempra. Perhaps he had never seen that particular spell do so much damage before.

I actually agree with that. Snape certainly seemed shocked when he saw the damage that Harry did to Draco with sectumsempra. Perhaps he had never seen that particular spell do so much damage before.

I imagine he had, he knew the healing curse for it. In addition, it was his specialty or signature curse; I don't think it would gain that title unless he used it frequently (as a Death Eater and/or at Hogwarts). Snape also expertly killed Dumbledore and Charity with the Avada Kedavra curse. That takes practice, you cannot simply issue it and have it work for you with the certainty we saw from Snape. The unforgiveables have a mental element involved that must be learned prior to their working correctly for the wizard user. Snape would have learned that while he was a Death Eater and thus, I am convinced that he was heavily involved in the killing and torturing during the first war, based on that canon. This is what makes Snape's 'turning from evil' valid. If he'd done nothing and not really believed in the whole Death Eater thing while he participated, he really would not have had to turn at all and his emotions for Lily would have no validity whatsoever pertaining to his turn.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Probally. But perhaps maybe he sensed that she was magical. Maybe wizards can sense that like dogs can sense where food is.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Maybe she saw him as a nice boy who wanted to be her friend. Also being told about the magical world can bring friendship on a little faster.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

To Severus I think he sometimes saw her as his equal, but at other times he saw her as a mudblood. Then for the roles in the friendship I'd say that Snape got picked on and it was up to Lily to put a stop to it.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Well Severus found pure-bloods and half-bloods in Slytherin(who would most likly end up being Death Eaters)who I'm sure he considered as the best of friends. And I think Severus did his part as beging for friendship. And Lily did her best to try and make the friendship work.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it was both the intrest in Dark Arts and the mudblood insult. Perhaps she also kind of knew that he would go onto the Dark lord's side.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

No I don't think so.

I imagine he had, he knew the healing curse for it. In addition, it was his specialty or signature curse; I don't think it would gain that title unless he used it frequently (as a Death Eater and/or at Hogwarts). Snape also expertly killed Dumbledore and Charity with the Avada Kedavra curse. That takes practice, you cannot simply issue it and have it work for you with the certainty we saw from Snape. The unforgiveables have a mental element involved that must be learned prior to their working correctly for the wizard user. Snape would have learned that while he was a Death Eater and thus, I am convinced that he was heavily involved in the killing and torturing during the first war, based on that canon. This is what makes Snape's 'turning from evil' valid. If he'd done nothing and not really believed in the whole Death Eater thing while he participated, he really would not have had to turn at all and his emotions for Lily would have no validity whatsoever pertaining to his turn.

Actually I see what you mean now. I wonder why this is not mentioned in canon though. I don't think now that Snape would not have killed before, because as you said he would not have been able to execute the killing curse so effectively, unless he'd practiced on spiders or something.

Actually I see what you mean now. I wonder why this is not mentioned in canon though. I don't think now that Snape would not have killed before, because as you said he would not have been able to execute the killing curse so effectively, unless he'd practiced on spiders or something.

The only in your face glimpse we get of the death eaters is in DH Chapter one and in GoF at the end when they all meet. But we don't have details of their individual exploits, we only were told what they did in general. They terrorized, kidnapped, killed and tortured muggles, muggleborns, order members and anyone else who got in their way (including blood traitors). Voldemort's Death Eaters were all involved in this, there is no canon that any of them were not. The few exploits we see show them masked so we cannot ascertain who was who, but they were all participating as possible.

I do not know why Snape would be an exception to this other than a reader desires him to be, but there is no canon to support that. On the other hand, Snape belonged to the DEs, we know what they did, he was proficient in the use of the AK curse and his Sectumsempra and he freely volunteered to join the group during a time when they were carrying out the atrocities (first war). He claimed to have watched people die who he could save in his past and he showed definitive evidence of holding blood purist views and his methods smacked of Death Eater mentality (binding the werewolf allowing him to crash to the floor and declaring he was doing to drag him outside to be kissed without the mercy of listening to what he had to say) - all things pertinent to a participating Death Eater. That is plenty of evidence to indicate that Snape was a participating, full-fledged DE, even if one does not take into account JKR's statement that indicated he was so into the regime he would not have left if Lily had not been targeted.

Actually I see what you mean now. I wonder why this is not mentioned in canon though. I don't think now that Snape would not have killed before, because as you said he would not have been able to execute the killing curse so effectively, unless he'd practiced on spiders or something.

Well, what's to say he didn't practice on spiders? There's as much evidence for that, as for his having murdered anyone as a Death Eater. ;)
Personally, the reason I do not think it was mentioned in canon, is because Snape did not kill anyone, because his worst crime was to send Voldemort after some family, which proved to be Lily's.

Well, what's to say he didn't practice on spiders? There's as much evidence for that, as for his having murdered anyone as a Death Eater. ;)
Personally, the reason I do not think it was mentioned in canon, is because Snape did not kill anyone, because his worst crime was to send Voldemort after some family, which proved to be Lily's.

Lucius' was not mentioned killing anyone either, nor Avery, Mulciber, Rudolfus, or the Carrows. Does that mean none of them ever killed either? Who exactly killed the massive number of people we heard about if it wasn't all of these people including Snape?

I think that Lily's conversation with Snape regarding his joining up with the DEs reflects her attitude that she is against it precisely because of the type of acts they carry out and the knowledge that anyone joining will participate. Voldemort didn't carry these things out single-handedly and he did not seem like the kind of boss who would look kindly on slackers who sat around watching all of his other mininons in action. Snape learning to perfect the AK on spiders is a cute idea :lol: - although probably those who love spiders wouldn't think so.

I think that Lily's conversation with Snape regarding his joining up with the DEs reflects her attitude that she is against it precisely because of the type of acts they carry out and the knowledge that anyone joining will participate. Voldemort didn't carry these things out single-handedly and he did not seem like the kind of boss who would look kindly on slackers who sat around watching all of his other mininons in action. Snape learning to perfect the AK on spiders is a cute idea :lol: - although probably those who love spiders wouldn't think so.
Snape didn't seem to have much of a problem with people dying left and right. He was okay with dooming a family to death when he gave that prophecy to Voldemort. The only thing that seemed to have bothered him was the fact that he had gotten Lily in danger. I also don't think Voldemort would have respected Snape if he didn't follow orders such as killing or torturing (which I think is inevitable when becoming a death eater).

Well, what's to say he didn't practice on spiders? There's as much evidence for that, as for his having murdered anyone as a Death Eater. ;)
Personally, the reason I do not think it was mentioned in canon, is because Snape did not kill anyone, because his worst crime was to send Voldemort after some family, which proved to be Lily's.

Actually there was that scene with him shooting down flies which Harry saw when he used the shield charm during Occlumency - it is possible.
As for Snape having killed before - I seem to change my mind about this regularly. He certainly executed the "Avada Kedavra" curse very well on the tower and he must have felt under immense pressure. At first I took this as an indication that Snape must have used the curse before - and I never thought of him using it on an animal :blush: We also see in DH that Snape is an extremely powerful wizard so now I'm not so sure he would have needed to have used it on a person before to pull it off so well on top of the tower. Also as Zara says there is no evidence that he has actually killed; in fact generally it implies that he hasn't killed as on the occasion when Dumbledore touches on Snapes past he talks of the people Snape has watched die rather than those he had killed, and Bella's moaning that he always seem to wriggle out of the "dirty work".
I'm really not sure. :hmm:

But when Albus said he thought they (sometimes) sorted too soon I got the impression he thought Snape was courageous enough for a Gryffindor and he had the sword too.

I'm not saying he wasn't brave, just that it's a possibility he wasn't that courageous when he was eleven, which would explain why the Sorting Hat didn't put him in Slytherin. :)

I meant that if Snape hadn't been in Slytherin he might not have been so drawn to the dark arts - it's just that the peer group were into it and already recruiting for Voldemort it seems and since you spend so much time with your house and Snape seemed so much like a lonely misfit sometimes then like those people drawn into those wacky religious cults he was drawn into the DE mob and at least felt appreciated and wanted there. Remember he was only eleven when he first went to Hogwarts and that's young enough to be drawn into the wrong type of gang who then had plenty of time to cultivate him into becoming a DE. Get 'em while they're young and impressionable would have been Voldemort's idea.

Do we know if Slytherins were the main factor in Snape's decision to join the Death Eaters? I'm not sure if that was the case for Snape may have made the same decision had he not been friends with Mulciber and Avery. Of course they played a factor, but I was left with the impression after reading DH and JKR's interviews that Snape joined because of his insecurities and his desire to impress Lily. Snape already held the same ideologies of others such as the Malfoys and most of the Black family in the way he treated Muggles and Muggleborns.

Harry too, cast the levicorpus on Ron. And they laughed about it. Had Harry done the same to Draco and that too in front of everybody else or even to Ron in front of others, I don’t think they would have laughed about it IMO.

Harry and Ron found it amusing when Draco was humiliated, too, even if they weren't the ones who caused it. They found the ferret scene amusing from what I can remember, and that was in front a large group of people as well.

James and Sirius joked with each other. With Snape IMO it was in front of the whole school, almost.

It was in front of twenty people, I believe.

What was done to her? I don’t understand. He betrayed her?

By calling her a derogatory term in front of the whole school, something that was a very extreme thing to say during that time, especially with Voldemort killing and torturing people that fell under that category? Yes, I would consider that betrayal. I would also consider joining a group that had Lily as a target to be a form of betrayal as well.

I acyually thought she was the one who was misleading him, because she was not a friend; she was pretending to be one and taht was actually not fair to Snape IMO.

I never interpreted that she was pretending to be his friend but rather pretending to ignore what was in front of her face: the person that Snape was evolving into. IMO, the reason why Lily held onto the friendship for so long was due to her desperation to see Snape change. She had been making excuses for "years" and was waiting all that time for Snape to change and do what she said, but it came to a point that she knew that she could no longer ignore who Snape was becoming and had to break off the friendship when she discovered that.

Lily retaliated that night by saying why she was different; when she was okay for years when she knew Snape was calling everyone of Lily’s birth by the same name IMO. That’s exactly what I’m saying too. She knew the humiliation Snape suffered and the circumstance in which he was in when he called her a mudblood, and yet she is unable to look at that aspect, just like she is unable to look at Snape in concern when he was in danger of being bitten or even dead.

At that time she calls Snape ungrateful and at the night of the SWM, she calls off their friendship. Because in her mind I think she stopped being a friend to Snape and she broke off using the SWM as an excuse. That’s what I feel anyway. :shrug:

When did Lily say it was okay for him to call others that? :huh: It made it seem like she never thought it was okay, otherwise she wouldn't be making excuses. As I said before, she was making excuses because she was trying to pretend that Snape wasn't the person that he was and was hiding from confronting the truth. Snape's Worst Memory was only there because it made Lily realize that she could no longer pretend anymore. She was going to have to accept that Snape was not a person that behaved in accordance to her personal morals, and because of that she came to the decision to drop the friendship or keep holding onto the friendship, aware of who Snape was and the path he was following.

I imagine he had, he knew the healing curse for it. In addition, it was his specialty or signature curse; I don't think it would gain that title unless he used it frequently (as a Death Eater and/or at Hogwarts). Snape also expertly killed Dumbledore and Charity with the Avada Kedavra curse. That takes practice, you cannot simply issue it and have it work for you with the certainty we saw from Snape. The unforgiveables have a mental element involved that must be learned prior to their working correctly for the wizard user. Snape would have learned that while he was a Death Eater and thus, I am convinced that he was heavily involved in the killing and torturing during the first war, based on that canon. This is what makes Snape's 'turning from evil' valid. If he'd done nothing and not really believed in the whole Death Eater thing while he participated, he really would not have had to turn at all and his emotions for Lily would have no validity whatsoever pertaining to his turn.

I think it was Voldemort who killed Charity while Snape looked calmly on (probably shutting out his thoughts from Voldemort).

I often wonder about him actually killing anyone since Bellatrix had a go at him for always avoiding stuff and so he might have always had an excuse for not doing things for Voldemort.

He did also ask Albus when he told Snape he wanted him to kill him to save Draco's soul 'What about my soul?' This makes me wonder if Snape had killed anyone before because if he had he might not have worried about his soul being damaged perhaps. Then again he just might not have wanted his soul to be any more damaged than it was already.

Hooray I finally managed to correctly insert a quote!

I think it was Voldemort who killed Charity while Snape looked calmly on (probably shutting out his thoughts from Voldemort).

Could be. I think it was Snape because of how it was written.

I often wonder about him actually killing anyone since Bellatrix had a go at him for always avoiding stuff and so he might have always had an excuse for not doing things for Voldemort.

While he was teaching, sure. He'd get out of many things - although I'd imagine he'd have to do things now and again. But Voldemort would not be so accomodating back when Snape was an everyday Death Eater, imo.

He did also ask Albus when he told Snape he wanted him to kill him to save Draco's soul 'What about my soul?'

Because a soul can heal. However, Dumbledore then told him only he would know if his soul would be affected. I don't think his soul was entirely healed at that time based on canon (his lack of remorse). So I feel Dumbledore was giving him a reminder of that and letting him know that any damage to his soul could be healed like the rest of it if Snape would feel the proper remorse for his past deeds. That was my interpretation.

Hooray I finally managed to correctly insert a quote!

Good job. :)

Tying this to topic, I think that like most matters in Snape's life, this does tie to his emotions for Lily. First because they resulted in his loathing of and therefore, lack of remorse where James was concerned. And second because I feel that Snape was so immersed in emotions pertaining to himself, he didn't ever stop to properly consider those who he'd killed or helped to kill via membership while he was a death eater.

Oh well I thought it was Voldemort from the way it was writtten and Voldemort didn't tell Snape or anyone else to kill her and I can't see any DE's (including Snape) acting without orders from Voldemort. Also didn't Voldemort immediately say 'dinner Nagini' thus implying he'd killed charity to feed to his snake.

I thought it was Voldemort too.

Snape didn't seem to have much of a problem with people dying left and right. He was okay with dooming a family to death when he gave that prophecy to Voldemort. The only thing that seemed to have bothered him was the fact that he had gotten Lily in danger. I also don't think Voldemort would have respected Snape if he didn't follow orders such as killing or torturing (which I think is inevitable when becoming a death eater).

You raise a good point. If Snape had never killed or tortured anyone, then it follows that Voldemort would not have respected him so much. In HBP we hear that Snape is the one who Voldemort respects the most. Unless Snape was so exceptionally cunning that he managed to deceive Voldemort into thinking he had killed/tortured a lot of people. However, I still can't forget what J.K. said that Snape probably wouldn't have left the DE's if Lily wasn't being targetted. This does actually imply that Snape was quite involved as a Death Eater, in all senses of the word.

As for Charity, I thought it was Voldemort who killed her. That was what was certainly implied.

You raise a good point. If Snape had never killed or tortured anyone, then it follows that Voldemort would not have respected him so much. In HBP we hear that Snape is the one who Voldemort respects the most. Unless Snape was so exceptionally cunning that he managed to deceive Voldemort into thinking he had killed/tortured a lot of people.

Voldemort does respect magical power and skill, independent of its use to kill/torture. The only one he ever feared was Albus Dumbledore, who never killed anyone (except perhaps in an accident of which I doubt Voldemort was aware, as it happened well before he was even born). That's actually a basis to respect Snape right there - if Voldemort believed he was pulling the wool over Dumbledore's eyes,

As for Charity, I thought it was Voldemort who killed her. That was what was certainly implied.Yes - it never even occurred to me that it might have been Snape.

Voldemort does respect magical power and skill, independent of its use to kill/torture. The only one he ever feared was Albus Dumbledore, who never killed anyone (except perhaps in an accident of which I doubt Voldemort was aware, as it happened well before he was even born). That's actually a basis to respect Snape right there - if Voldemort believed he was pulling the wool over Dumbledore's eyes,
:agree:
Killing wasn't Voldemorts main objective - that was wizards - or more specifically him - taking over the world *insert maniacal laughter* and he was prepared to kill and torture to do that and got others to do his dirty work as well. But I don't see that personally murdering people was a prerequisite to becoming a Death Eater. Nor that Voldemort was pnly interested in followers who wanted to murder and maim. His Death Eaters seemed to me to be like his "cabinet" - he needed brains as well as brawn, and I think that the likes of Lucius and Severus very likely fulfilled this need.

Oh and Snape and Lily are great characters! :whistle:

Oh and Snape and Lily are great characters! :whistle:

:lol: :agree: I agree with that!

Inkling Oh well I thought it was Voldemort from the way it was writtten and Voldemort didn't tell Snape or anyone else to kill her and I can't see any DE's (including Snape) acting without orders from Voldemort. Also didn't Voldemort immediately say 'dinner Nagini' thus implying he'd killed charity to feed to his snake.

Could be. But Charity begged Snape (using the same words Dumbledore did) and in the text it is referring to Snape watching Charity revolve toward him and then away from him again, then "Avada Kedavra". There is no mention of Voldemort until a full paragraph later.

Back on topic, I was wondering, since Lily was so popular, she likely went out on dates. I wonder how Snape felt about the other boys she was actually dating. I would imagine he would be jealous of them - but perhaps his fixation on James (despite Lily's outward indifference to him) was due to the fact that he could 'just tell' that Lily seemed to like James better than all of the others.

While you can say that it is canon that Snape was a Death Eater, there is NO canon to support the assumption that he had ever killed anyone. It is all assumption and conjecture. Having said that I personally think he probably had killed at least one person, but we can only guess.
Conjecture implies that the statement is baseless. The idea that Snape killed people in a war while fighting for the side that was killing people ruthlessly is not simply conjecture. It's a logical conclusion based on the available information. We see the Death Eaters in action on many occasions throughout the series. In all of them they are shown to be using lethal curses, including the killing curse.

Your statement assumes that you know Snape was "willing" or what he thought about it at all, which we can't know from the text. There is also canon to indicate that most Death Eaters don't really know what they will be asked to do (in terms of tortue and killing) until they are well into it by which time they can't back out. This is what happened to Regulus Black. And ultimately it is what happened to Snape.
I'm afraid I don't see the comparison between Regulus and Snape. Regulus backed out because he wasn't prepared for what they wanted him to do, I agree, but it is canon that he would have continued as a DE if Lily had not been targeted. To me, that suggests that he would have done whatever he was asked to, including murder of innocents. He knew that the information he carried to Voldemort would result in the death of an infant, and possibly its parents. What else did he expect Voldemort to do? IMO, that makes him a willing accomplice to murder.

It is canon that Draco would have stood by and not cared when innocent people were being murdered. It's canon that he was working with the people who were murdering without second thought. So why is Snape unlike Draco?
Draco did nothing because he was too scared to, and we're shown that he is shocked by the deaths and the torture. When he was given the choice to identify Harry, his worst enemy, he refrained from doing it. If it had been Snape who was asked to identify James, could he have made the same choice?

Sectumsempra can undoubtedly do a lot of harm, but the two times we see Snape use Sectumsempra it does relatively little damage;a gash in James's cheek and the removal of George's ear neither of which were even remotely fatal. Sev liked subtlety.
In both cases, Snape missed the intended target. The real effect of a direct hit of the spell was shown when Draco was hit by it. What is subtle about Levicorpus or Muffliato? Muffliato doesn't really muffle, it creates a buzzing that's loud enough to drown out anything else.

Harry too, cast the levicorpus on Ron. And they laughed about it. Had Harry done the same to Draco and that too in front of everybody else or even to Ron in front of others, I don’t think they would have laughed about it IMO. James and Sirius joked with each other. With Snape IMO it was in front of the whole school, almost.
Actually, they would have. It's on the text in OoTP.
Yes, he had once overheard Professor McGonagall saying that his father and Sirius had been troublemakers at school, but she had described them as forerunners of the Weasley twins, and Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside-down for the fun of it… not unless they really loathed them… perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it…
Plus, Harry does try some other hexes, like the toenail curling curse, on Goyle, I think, and on Filch. We're also told that Levicorpus was a common spell among the students at the time.

She did not overlook it. She called him Snivellus and told him to wash his underpants and a few other things as well. She did not overlook it IMO.
I meant, if Lily had overlooked the racial slur and forgiven Snape that night.

I respectfully disagree. I think Lily used this to break off her friendship, a friendship that was at that time almost non-existent in her mind.
That makes it sounds as if Lily was looking for a reason to end it and got lucky. I don't think so. I believe that this was a very valid reason, not an excuse, for breaking up the friendship.

I don’t blame her for the breaking off, mainly because she was not a friend to Snape in her mind at that time, and breaking off the friendship would be better IMO for Snape and herself, instead of pretending to be good and best friends.
If Lily didn't consider Snape as a friend at the time, then her words to Snape make no sense at all. In fact, the whole apology scene looks absurd if they'd already ceased being friends. :err:

She could have gone to Dumbledore or she could have instead of arguing with him, like she had been doing for years, given him instead an ultimatum, telling him to choose them or her friendship. She does not and takes an unilateral stance on a friendship that was for quite sometime very close IMO.
Actually, I think that her not reporting Snape to the authorities was proof that she considered him a friend above all else. I don't think that Lily would have lied and made excuses for Snape if she hadn't valued the friendship. I think that Lily was someone whose heart was bigger than her brain, and her love for her friend did not allow her to resort to extreme measures.

It's also possible that Lily had been threatening Snape with that in the conversation we hear in the memory after the soring. Snape enters, accusing Lily of being a bad friend. It's likely that she was about to report Snape or his friends, and Snape was trying to stop her.

Back on topic, I was wondering, since Lily was so popular, she likely went out on dates. I wonder how Snape felt about the other boys she was actually dating. I would imagine he would be jealous of them - but perhaps his fixation on James (despite Lily's outward indifference to him) was due to the fact that he could 'just tell' that Lily seemed to like James better than all of the others.

That's an interesting question. However I don't think Lily would have dated that much IMO, probably because she liked James and perhaps she was waiting for him to mature so she could go out with him. A lot of girls are like that. Some of them also have this 'unobtainable' thing attached to them. When I was in school there was this girl and she was really popular and attractive. All the guys fancied her but she hardly went on dates with anyone. None of us could understand it but it turns out she just didn't like anybody that fancied her so she never went out with them. Perhaps this is what it was like for Lily. She didn't like anyone except James really, and she was just waiting for him to mature. I think Snape realised this, because if Lily went out with lots of different people then he would be equally jealous of all of them, but he seems to have this jealous obsession with James which suggests that he was the only one Lily had feelings for.

That's an interesting question. However I don't think Lily would have dated that much IMO, probably because she liked James and perhaps she was waiting for him to mature so she could go out with him. A lot of girls are like that. Some of them also have this 'unobtainable' thing attached to them. When I was in school there was this girl and she was really popular and attractive. All the guys fancied her but she hardly went on dates with anyone. None of us could understand it but it turns out she just didn't like anybody that fancied her so she never went out with them. Perhaps this is what it was like for Lily. She didn't like anyone except James really, and she was just waiting for him to mature. I think Snape realised this, because if Lily went out with lots of different people then he would be equally jealous of all of them, but he seems to have this jealous obsession with James which suggests that he was the only one Lily had feelings for.
I can see what you're saying. I don't think Lily likes to play around with anyone's emotions, so if she doesn't like a guy, she won't give him any false hope by dating him. Snape only seemed to think James was a threat in canon, and never mentioned another boy as well.

Conjecture implies that the statement is baseless.

Conjecture: the formation of conclusions from incomplete evidence

I stand by what I said.
The idea that Snape killed people in a war while fighting for the side that was killing people ruthlessly is not simply conjecture. It's a logical conclusion based on the available information. We see the Death Eaters in action on many occasions throughout the series. In all of them they are shown to be using lethal curses, including the killing curse.
But this is still just your opinion. When you use terms like "logical conclusion" you are implying that it is more than that.

Draco did nothing because he was too scared to, and we're shown that he is shocked by the deaths and the torture. When he was given the choice to identify Harry, his worst enemy, he refrained from doing it. If it had been Snape who was asked to identify James, could he have made the same choice?I'm not sure Katie Bell and Ron would agree that Draco did nothing. Draco was also happy to see the murder of innocents - he wasn't bothered that Ron and Katie nearly died and he certainly wasn't bothered about killing Dumbledore (by that I mean he was prepared to do it). He would have been quite happy if either the necklace or the mead had worked.

In both cases, Snape missed the intended target. The real effect of a direct hit of the spell was shown when Draco was hit by it. What is subtle about Levicorpus or Muffliato? Muffliato doesn't really muffle, it creates a buzzing that's loud enough to drown out anything else.
Again you are merely giving your opinion. There is no canon to indicate that Snape missed his target both times, and the book says
"SECTUMSEMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly.
The implication therefore from the three times we see the spell use is that the level of damage done is dependent on the wand action used - it is to all intents and purpose like a knife or sword that can slash. I still maintain that Snape was subtle.

I'm not sure Katie Bell and Ron would agree that Draco did nothing. Draco was also happy to see the murder of innocents - he wasn't bothered that Ron and Katie nearly died and he certainly wasn't bothered about killing Dumbledore (by that I mean he was prepared to do it). He would have been quite happy if either the necklace or the mead had worked.

The distinction was that Draco's motivation was to save his mum and himself from being killed. As Dumbledore confirmed on the Tower, Draco didn't really wish to kill anyone innocent. Snape was doing it to forward an evil cause and he really did wish to kill the innocent in order to do so - his relaying the prophecy is evidence of that. That is canon. That is why Lily was so ademant about his choices when she ended the relationship; she had the foresight to see where it would place Snape in the future, imo. Being a Death Eater meant becoming cold-hearted and immuned to the killing, torrture and death of those "beneath" them (which translated to Muggles, Muggleborns, Blood traitors and anyone else trying to stop them). That bit is canon too.

The following is all my opinion and all that. :)

But this is still just your opinion. When you use terms like "logical conclusion" you are implying that it is more than that.

That is the logical conclusion based on the information given in the text - Vivek is quite right about that. Snape was an active Death Eater in the first war - he did not become a spy for either side until just before Voldemort fell. The Death Eaters killed and tortured people for fun - Snape was part of that and chose to be part of that from a young age. He loved the Dark Arts and was actively practicing them as a student - even inventing his own Dark Arts spells - Sectumsempra being the worst because it's only purpose could be to kill or seriously injure someone. He knew more curses at the age of 11 than half the seventh years - a fact that nobody could know unless he actually used those curses against others. His response to being embarrassed in public at the age of 15 was attempted murder - if Sirius hadn't called out a warning, James would most likely have died that day. He willingly associated with a gang of Slytherins who used the Dark Arts to torture other students - and most likely participated in that torture because he saw it as "just a laugh". And Lupin tells Harry in DH that Sectumsempra was "always a specialty of Snape's" - which tells us that Snape used that horrible spell against a lot of people. Otherwise, it would not be his specialty.

Snape was not just sitting around twiddling his thumbs while the other Death Eaters tortured and murdered people. Voldemort would not have had any respect or trust in Snape if he had not shown that he was willing to torture and kill people by actually doing it. That was the issue with Draco in DH - Voldemort was forcing him to personally torture people as proof of his loyalty. Snape would never have gotten away with doing nothing.

In addition, he was indirectly involved in torture and murder in the second war because he sat back and did absolutely nothing to save those innocent people. Nor did he show even the slightest remorse for any innocent person who died. Even when he said "lately only those I could not save", it was not said in remorse - he was angry with Dumbledore for using him not because innocent people had died or been tortured. And the fact remains that Snape could have saved a lot of people and simply chose not to. The only person Snape showed any remorse for was Lily - and even that was selfish because he did not care in the least that James had died or that Harry had been left an orphan.

The evidence given in the text is conclusive. These are all facts revealed in canon. Snape was an active Death Eater and, as such, he killed and tortured people - his specialty being to use Sectumsempra on them.

I'm not sure Katie Bell and Ron would agree that Draco did nothing. Draco was also happy to see the murder of innocents - he wasn't bothered that Ron and Katie nearly died and he certainly wasn't bothered about killing Dumbledore (by that I mean he was prepared to do it). He would have been quite happy if either the necklace or the mead had worked.

I agree with you here. Draco is certainly no innocent. The difference with Draco is the fact that he balked at being directly involved. He had no problem with people getting murdered or tortured - he was quite gleeful about those things. He felt no remorse about Ron getting poisoned or Katie being injured by the necklace. It was having to do those things himself - face to face - that bothered him. That doesn't absolve him of any guilt, IMO. As Hermione said in HBP, that actually makes Draco more dangerous overall because he prefers the indirect method and did not care if anyone else was hurt or died in his indirect attempts to kill Dumbledore.

Again you are merely giving your opinion. There is no canon to indicate that Snape missed his target both times, and the book says
"SECTUMSEMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly.
The implication therefore from the three times we see the spell use is that the level of damage done is dependent on the wand action used - it is to all intents and purpose like a knife or sword that can slash. I still maintain that Snape was subtle.

Actually, canon is quite clear on this issue. Snape did indeed miss his target both times. In DH, Snape was supposedly aiming at the Death Eater and hit George by mistake. In OOTP - in SWM - Sirius called out a warning to James. That's the only reason James was not killed or permanently injured that day - Sirius called out a warning and Snape missed.

The wand movement is completely irrelevant - Harry didn't even know what the spell was supposed to do. The significance is the fact that Harry hit Draco square in the chest - directly hitting his target. That showed us exactly what Sectumsempra was designed to do - kill or permanently injure. The only reason James was not killed or permanently injured is because Sirius called out warning and James moved so Snape did not directly hit him. The spell missed and only grazed the side of his face - and still caused a gash bad enough to spatter blood on his robes. In that case and in DH, Snape merely pointed his wand to use the spell and it still had a horrible effect - George's ear was cut off and could not be healed. I shudder to think what would have happened if Snape had actually hit George in the back or in the chest - he'd most likely have died. The same applies to James in SWM - if Snape had directly hit James in the chest instead of missing and just grazing the side of his face, then James would have suffered the same effect as Draco in HBP - and most likely would have died since Snape was the only person who knew the countercurse. Sectumsempra is not in the least bit subtle. It's a nasty spell that causes pain and a lot of bleeding. Nothing subtle about that at all, IMO.

In addition, he was indirectly involved in torture and murder in the second war because he sat back and did absolutely nothing to save those innocent people. Nor did he show even the slightest remorse for any innocent person who died. Even when he said "lately only those I could not save", it was not said in remorse - he was angry with Dumbledore for using him not because innocent people had died or been tortured.

'Not said in remorse' is your own interpretation, not something other readers are duty-bound to accept as fact. :) You are entitled to your own interpretation, of course, but the impression I got from reading those lines -- "lately, only those I could not save" -- was very different.

And the fact remains that Snape could have saved a lot of people and simply chose not to.

Again, that is your own supposition. :) Not something that the text actually tells us.

The evidence given in the text is conclusive. These are all facts revealed in canon. Snape was an active Death Eater and, as such, he killed and tortured people - his specialty being to use Sectumsempra on them.

It's a reasonable assumption that Snape killed people in the First War. That is rather different from conclusive evidence, or a 'fact revealed in canon'. I agree with you that Voldy would not have regarded Snape as his right-hand man for nothing.

I shudder to think what would have happened if Snape had actually hit George in the back or in the chest - he'd most likely have died.

Indeed, and yikes. But of course it was not Snape's intention to kill or wound George but the other Death Eater. The text makes that very clear.

Perhaps we should get back to Snape and Lily. ;)

Lily was a little harsh on Snape, IMO. He was having a seriously bad day when he called her a mudblood. Fair enough, she lost the plot with him, burt i`d have forgiven him eventually.

Well I think if the only problem was that Snape had called her a mudblood, she would have forgiven him. However, her reasons included the fact that Snape had a deep interest in the dark arts, Snape and his friends were planning to be death eaters and practiced dark magic on others. Plus they called all muggle borns 'mudblood' because they were prejudice against them. So the problem was far greater than merely calling her a mudblood.

I meant, if Lily had overlooked the racial slur and forgiven Snape that night.

If she had I would have thought her to be a very good friend indeed. Because she would have also understood snape's position when he uttered that word and also came to apologize even when Lily had been equally rude to him IMO.

That makes it sounds as if Lily was looking for a reason to end it and got lucky.

I thought so actually. :)

If Lily didn't consider Snape as a friend at the time, then her words to Snape make no sense at all. In fact, the whole apology scene looks absurd if they'd already ceased being friends. :err:

I don't know about absurd; to me it did not look natural. A friendship of so many years had soured and Lily was breaking it off; it looked contrived to me. :)

Actually, I think that her not reporting Snape to the authorities was proof that she considered him a friend above all else. I don't think that Lily would have lied and made excuses for Snape if she hadn't valued the friendship. I think that Lily was someone whose heart was bigger than her brain, and her love for her friend did not allow her to resort to extreme measures.

If she was a true friend and came to know as Lily did, that Snape was hanging around with people that could destroy him and could do him no good, then I think she would not be wrong to take this to an adult who could handle this better IMO.

posted by meesha1971The wand movement is completely irrelevant - Harry didn't even know what the spell was supposed to do. The significance is the fact that Harry hit Draco square in the chest - directly hitting his target. That showed us exactly what Sectumsempra was designed to do - kill or permanently injure. The only reason James was not killed or permanently injured is because Sirius called out warning and James moved so Snape did not directly hit him. The spell missed and only grazed the side of his face - and still caused a gash bad enough to spatter blood on his robes. In that case and in DH, Snape merely pointed his wand to use the spell and it still had a horrible effect - George's ear was cut off and could not be healed. I shudder to think what would have happened if Snape had actually hit George in the back or in the chest - he'd most likely have died. The same applies to James in SWM - if Snape had directly hit James in the chest instead of missing and just grazing the side of his face, then James would have suffered the same effect as Draco in HBP - and most likely would have died since Snape was the only person who knew the countercurse. Sectumsempra is not in the least bit subtle. It's a nasty spell that causes pain and a lot of bleeding. Nothing subtle about that at all, IMO.

The sectumsempra I think is a spell like other spells that can be cast at different strengths. Harry cast it with all his strength, like he did the protego at Snape. That was why Draco got a deep wound, a woung that Snape was successfully able to repair as well.

The spell which may be a sectumsempra, used by Snape at James may not have been cast with Snape's full power. I think Snape could manipulate the strength of his spells, and the one he cast at James was pretty mild IMO.

Actually, canon is quite clear on this issue. Snape did indeed miss his target both times. In DH, Snape was supposedly aiming at the Death Eater and hit George by mistake. In OOTP - in SWM - Sirius called out a warning to James. That's the only reason James was not killed or permanently injured that day - Sirius called out a warning and Snape missed.

The wand movement is completely irrelevant - Harry didn't even know what the spell was supposed to do. The significance is the fact that Harry hit Draco square in the chest - directly hitting his target. That showed us exactly what Sectumsempra was designed to do - kill or permanently injure. The only reason James was not killed or permanently injured is because Sirius called out warning and James moved so Snape did not directly hit him. The spell missed and only grazed the side of his face - and still caused a gash bad enough to spatter blood on his robes. In that case and in DH, Snape merely pointed his wand to use the spell and it still had a horrible effect - George's ear was cut off and could not be healed. I shudder to think what would have happened if Snape had actually hit George in the back or in the chest - he'd most likely have died. The same applies to James in SWM - if Snape had directly hit James in the chest instead of missing and just grazing the side of his face, then James would have suffered the same effect as Draco in HBP - and most likely would have died since Snape was the only person who knew the countercurse. Sectumsempra is not in the least bit subtle. It's a nasty spell that causes pain and a lot of bleeding. Nothing subtle about that at all, IMO.

Damn. I was about to post what you've just said, but you put it better than I would have done. :lol:

IMO sectumsempra can be quite a deadly spell. However I also think it can sometimes be similar to the effect of a knife, as in it will only cause as much damage as you want it to. I think perhaps it depends on how much energy you put into the spell. We know certainly that Harry was quite angry when he used the spell on Draco. The capitalisation of the word 'SECTUMSEMPRA!' implies this. I think it is also possible that Snape planned to badly hit the DE he was aiming at but ended up cutting George's ear off by mistake.
To counteract all this though, I don't think we have much evidence in canon that sectumsempra isn't a deadly spell. :shrug:

The spell which may be a sectumsempra, used by Snape at James may not have been cast with Snape's full power. I think Snape could manipulate the strength of his spells, and the one he cast at James was pretty mild IMO.

That is a very good point, TGW. Snape certainly intended to cut James during the unpleasant SWM incident. I really don't think it should be assumed that he wanted to kill him. :wow:

I think it is also possible that Snape planned to badly hit the DE he was aiming at but ended up cutting George's ear off by mistake.

To me the text proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that hitting George, and not the other guy, was a mistake. :tu:

Snape can make them. ;)

Anyways, back to himself and Lily ... :D

Well I think if the only problem was that Snape had called her a mudblood, she would have forgiven him. However, her reasons included the fact that Snape had a deep interest in the dark arts, Snape and his friends were planning to be death eaters and practiced dark magic on others. Plus they called all muggle borns 'mudblood' because they were prejudice against them. So the problem was far greater than merely calling her a mudblood.

I agree with WWB here.

The ending of their friendship makes for sad reading but I do understand Lily's reasons. We can argue until the cows come home -- and no doubt will :D -- about how she went about it, we can debate as to whether ultimately Snape would have left the DEs for her sake, but she was not without cause. Severus was part of a group that was targetting people like her.

The evidence given in the text is conclusive. These are all facts revealed in canon. Snape was an active Death Eater and, as such, he killed and tortured people - his specialty being to use Sectumsempra on them.
But it is only conclusive in your opinion. In My opinion it is not. In my opinion it is unclear whether or not Snape killed anybody during his time as a death Eater.

Actually, canon is quite clear on this issue.
No - your opinion of canon is quite clear. Canon itself on this subject does not state that Snape missed.
I find the idea that Snape was trying to kill James absolutely ludicrous.
One pupil attempting to murder another with a slashing spell in front of twenty witnesses? What do you imagine Snape thought Dumbledore would do? Give him detention?

The wand movement is completely irrelevant
On the contrary, the wand movement for each spell is vitally important - why else would they have to learn them? Why did the pupils practise them? And why was the wand movement for Wingardium Leviosa a question on Harry's Charm OWL? Because wand movements are important. As such we cannot say that wand movements are ever irrelevant. You may choose to beleive that it made no difference with that particular spell, I however choose to believe that it did.

Snape merely pointed his wand to use the spell and it still had a horrible effect -But if as you say the wand movement is irrelevant why is it relevant here that "Snape merely pointed his wand and it still had a horrible effect" ? Why do use ythe term merely pointed if wand movement is irrelevant?

That showed us exactly what Sectumsempra was designed to do - kill or permanently injure.
No, we are told that Sectumsempra is like a blade slash. It is not "designed" to kill or permanently injure, it is desigend to slash like a knife or sword. The result of which may be death or permanent injury, but as we don't actually see anyone die from it, it is a bit of a stretch to say that that is what it was designed to do.
It is undoubtedly a nasty spell - Dark Magic - it is designed to cut - and cut in a way that required a specific counter curse. Which makes me wonder that if Snape had hit the DE he was aiming at if Snape would have healed him?

The spell which may be a sectumsempra, used by Snape at James may not have been cast with Snape's full power. I think Snape could manipulate the strength of his spells, and the one he cast at James was pretty mild IMO.
My feelings exactly.

I don't think we have much evidence in canon that sectumsempra isn't a deadly spell.
Well how many people end up dead as a result of sectumsempra?

So was it sectumsempra a killing spell or just a dark one?
What was the spell used accidentally on George that Snape used to save Lupin? It can't have been sectumsempra as Snape managed to cure Draco's injuries from it but George's couldn't be undone. Unless it all stems from how strongly it was cast and Harry's was a lot weaker than the one Snape cast that accidentally hit George. Now I wonder if Lily was aware Snape had invented this spell and it put here off him even more..

I think it depends on the strength of the spell. I also think George's ear could noit be repaired because they could not find the torn ear and apart from Snape, no one knew the counter spell, which Snape used to heal Draco in a minute.

And Snape must have used the sectumsempra with all his strength, because he was not aiming it at George, but a death eater IMO.

So was it sectumsempra a killing spell or just a dark one?

Well, my take is that if there were more than one spell designed to kill, Avada Kedavra wouldn't be called The Killing Curse.

What was the spell used accidentally on George that Snape used to save Lupin? It can't have been sectumsempra as Snape managed to cure Draco's injuries from it but George's couldn't be undone.

It was Sectumsempra, Lupin says so on page. I think Snape could cure Draco because he did it immediately, he was in an extreme hurry, and he said that if he does it quickly, even scarring could be avoided. I suppose you can't do anything about it after some time has passed.

So was it sectumsempra a killing spell or just a dark one?
What was the spell used accidentally on George that Snape used to save Lupin? It can't have been sectumsempra as Snape managed to cure Draco's injuries from it but George's couldn't be undone. Unless it all stems from how strongly it was cast and Harry's was a lot weaker than the one Snape cast that accidentally hit George. Now I wonder if Lily was aware Snape had invented this spell and it put here off him even more..
IMO Sectumsempra is a Dark spell that is capable of killing someone.

Most people assume that it was this spell that Snape used when Georges ear was cut off, and that this was the spell that Snape used to gash James's face in Snape's Worst Memory, but as I say it is an assumtion because it doesn't actually say so in the text. I personally do think that Snape used Sectumsempra on these two occasions. As such it would seem that Snape knew the countersurse as he showed in HBP, but that few others did.
I doubt Lily knew about this curse - at least before SWM - as I think if she'd known Snape had actually invented something so Dark she would have expressed her reservations about it in the scenes we were shown. The fact that she didn't implies to me that she didn't know about it.

I think Lily knew about the sectumsempra; Snape had written it in his potions book and she may have read it and known about that as well as the other spells as well IMO.

They must have had a lot of things in common and even if Lily were not interested, she must have known that Snape was attracted by the dark arts because we see Snape knowing all kinds of hexes and spells from when before he came to Hogwarts. It would have also not been impposible for her not to know Snape's interest in the dark arts, because it was Snape who introduced her to magic in the first palce, and he would have told her everything he knew; his interests and what he thought was the best and good about all magic. And they were friends for over five years IMO. ;)

We did see the scenes from Snape's position though and he had no way of knowing what Lily's knowledge about him was.

OK - a bit off topic - but what I want to know is why -if they can regrow bones and mend broken ones why can't an ear be regrown - even plastic surgeons these days can put on artificial appendages. Also why couldn't someone fix Harry's poor eyesight and while were at it why couldn't they fix scars - I mean muggles can but wizards who can regrow bones can't????

Another rant - why could the Longbottom's minds be remodified so they could have been a bit less gaga???

Now back to normal and the topic at hand now I've let off steam.

Now I come to think of it I think Lily's knowledge of the sectumsempra spell might have been yet another factor in her wanting to cease the friendship with Snape - along with James, Sirius et al running him down.

Originally Posted by meesha1971
Snape was an active Death Eater in the first war - he did not become a spy for either side until just before Voldemort fell.

A year or so at most admittedly. However cannon certainly implies that people aren’t accepted as DE until they have graduated Hogwarts (17 at the earliest more likely 18) which certainly implies strongly that Snape would only have been a DE for 3 years at most when LV fell. This suggests that Snape was a spy for DD for almost 1/3 of his time in the DE if he joined immediately he left school, a greater proportion if he did not.

The Death Eaters killed and tortured people for fun - Snape was part of that

There is, I believe, no cannon to prove Snape’s participation in such acts one way or another. If you want to use logic then that would indicate that all member of the communist party in the USSR during Stalin’s reign took part in acts of torture & /or murder, or that all members of the National Socialist party participated in such acts. Neither of these is the case. So t is possible that Snape did not participate in the acts you describe.

He knew more curses at the age of 11 than half the seventh years - a fact that nobody could know unless he actually used those curses against others.

I dispute the logic of this statement, I believe that if he during his first year, for example, had a theoretical discussion in the common room with a seventh year who had studied the dark arts, he could have convinced them that he knew such spells without having to perform them; just as someone could convince you that they had seen CoS without actually watching the film in front of you.

He willingly associated with a gang of Slytherins who used the Dark Arts to torture other students - and most likely participated in that torture because he saw it as "just a laugh".

Torture is quite a specific word, with very unpleasant overtones. It is also one that Lily does not use to describe Sev or any of his friends while they are at school. Also I would add that if there were a gang of students running around torturing people – would they really have been allowed to remain in Hagwarts?

And Lupin tells Harry in DH that Sectumsempra was "always a specialty of Snape's" - which tells us that Snape used that horrible spell against a lot of people. Otherwise, it would not be his specialty.

This rather implies that Sectumsempra is not a killing cures – otherwise I think he would have been expelled & imprisoned for murder before he graduated. JMO of course. If you agree to this point then surely that means his attempt to use Sectumsempra on James was not an attempt to murder someone.

Snape was not just sitting around twiddling his thumbs while the other Death Eaters tortured and murdered people. Voldemort would not have had any respect or trust in Snape if he had not shown that he was willing to torture and kill people by actually doing it.

I think Zgrinius has already dealt with the issue of gaining LV respect & as already stated here guilt by association does not constitute logical proof. We know little about Snape’s standing in the DE before he brings LV news of the prophecy, it could have been this action alone that caused him to gain trust within the DE (although not universally as can be seen from Bellatrix’s attitude towards Snape)

That was the issue with Draco in DH - Voldemort was forcing him to personally torture people as proof of his loyalty. Snape would never have gotten away with doing nothing.

Draco was set the task of killing DD not to torture anyone. This was not done to ascertain Draco’s loyalty – it was done to punish Draco’s father.

In addition, he was indirectly involved in torture and murder in the second war because he sat back and did absolutely nothing to save those innocent people.

As you quote "lately only those I could not save" in the next sentence it rather contradicts this statement IMO

IMO Sectumsempra is a Dark spell that is capable of killing someone.

Most people assume that it was this spell that Snape used when Georges ear was cut off, and that this was the spell that Snape used to gash James's face in Snape's Worst Memory, but as I say it is an assumtion because it doesn't actually say so in the text. I personally do think that Snape used Sectumsempra on these two occasions. As such it would seem that Snape knew the countersurse as he showed in HBP, but that few others did.
I doubt Lily knew about this curse - at least before SWM - as I think if she'd known Snape had actually invented something so Dark she would have expressed her reservations about it in the scenes we were shown. The fact that she didn't implies to me that she didn't know about it.

We see three people inflicted with Sectumsempra -

James, possibly, with one small cut to the face.
Draco who nearly bleeds to death from multiple stab wounds (Harry's fault).
George with his missing ear.

Snape's use of the spell seems very limited to one cut - he controls the spell both times though he is under stress. To me that is why he is an "expert in Sectumsempra."

Lupin is saying that because he mistrusts Snape, but Harry knows that Snape an also heal Sectumsempra, because he wishes for the same gift when Madame Pomfrey has trouble healing Bill Weasley.

We know there are no lasting effects for James, no scars, and he certainly still has his strength about him at the end of SWM. If he was bleeding to death, I doubt Lily would have left the scene herself.

George's ear heals up almost immediately and he is making jokes. Snape saved his life, after all.

Draco nearly dies, but Snape saves him. He calls the spell "dark" but Harry uses it indiscriminately and without control, and that's why it goes berserk on Draco. Even then - Draco survives and even forgives Harry - and that's so much worse than what happened to James with the slight cut Snape gives him in defense of himself.

If Lily knew about the spell, then she probably knew about the countercurse as well. She did not see Snape as "dark" in that scene, and asks "What did he ever do to you?" Lily knew, or should have known, that Snape had a good side.

Most people assume that it was this spell that Snape used when Georges ear was cut off, and that this was the spell that Snape used to gash James's face in Snape's Worst Memory, but as I say it is an assumtion because it doesn't actually say so in the text.
Just wanted to correct myself - I think it does actually say that it is sectumsempra that removes Georges ear.

Snape's use of the spell seems very limited to one cut - he controls the spell both times though he is under stress. To me that is why he is an "expert in Sectumsempra."
Yeah that's what I think. Snape seems to use it non-verbally and with little wand movement, whereas Harry bellows it at Draco and waves his wand wildly. To me it's like the difference between a master fencer and someone just waving a sword around.

I would be utterly thrilled if there was more discussion of Snape and Lily than in the Severus Snape thread. That's why we have this thread after all.

'Not said in remorse' is your own interpretation, not something other readers are duty-bound to accept as fact. :) You are entitled to your own interpretation, of course, but the impression I got from reading those lines -- "lately, only those I could not save" -- was very different.

There is nothing in the text to indicate remorse over other people dying. Snape was angry with Dumbledore for using him. It is the anger that is shown - not remorse. And he's not being truthful because there were a lot of people that he could have saved if he had chosen to.

The only remorse that is shown in the text - in regards to Snape - is the fact that Lily died. But even that was selfish because Snape was only focused on himself. It didn't matter to him that James had died and Harry had been left an orphan because of him. Nor did it matter to him how Lily would have felt if she had lived and they had died. Snape only cared about his own feelings - that is what is shown in the text. But that was at least some remorse - even if it was selfish.

[staff edit: unnecessary]

It's a reasonable assumption that Snape killed people in the First War. That is rather different from conclusive evidence, or a 'fact revealed in canon'. I agree with you that Voldy would not have regarded Snape as his right-hand man for nothing.

Never assume anything. It is much better to make a logical deduction based on the facts given in the text - which are very conclusive. The facts are quite clear.

[Off topic]

But it is only conclusive in your opinion. In My opinion it is not. In my opinion it is unclear whether or not Snape killed anybody during his time as a death Eater.

We're talking about the facts - not opinions. The facts given in the text are conclusive. It is a logical deduction based on conclusive facts that Snape was an active participant in the first war. He killed and tortured people just as all the other Death Eaters did. He was practicing the Dark Arts as a student - canon fact. He participated in using the Dark Arts to torture other students and thought it was "just a laugh" - canon fact. Snape was an active Death Eater - joining willingly and participating willingly - and his specialty was using Sectumsempra against people - canon fact.

No - your opinion of canon is quite clear. Canon itself on this subject does not state that Snape missed.
I find the idea that Snape was trying to kill James absolutely ludicrous.
One pupil attempting to murder another with a slashing spell in front of twenty witnesses? What do you imagine Snape thought Dumbledore would do? Give him detention?

Again, we're talking about the facts - not opinions. My opinion is that I do not like it. The facts are that Snape was aiming for James' back and missed because Sirius called out warning and James turned - causing the spell to graze the side of his face instead.

Snape was too angry to care what would happen - he was out of control. He also revealed his true feelings about muggleborns in front of Lily - a fact he had been careful to lie about up to that point. He lost control in that moment and did not care about the consequences of his actions at that point in time. Later - he thought about the consequences and attempted to apologize to Lily and lie about what he meant - but Lily saw through the lies. But at that particular moment, Snape was in a murderous rage - completely out of control - and he was not considering the consequences of his actions.

James was not facing Snape - he was facing Lily with his back to Snape. When Sirius called out warning, James turned and was facing Snape - causing the spell to graze his face. Snape was aiming for James' back and missed because Sirius called out warning. That is shown in the text. Canon facts. Whether you like those facts or not is up to you - that is opinion. Personally, I don't like it. James was very lucky that Sirius spotted Snape and called out warning.

Snape was in a murderous rage - completely out of control. He wanted to physically hurt James as much as possible and the spell he chose was the worst he could think of - the one he had invented himself that would cause a lot of pain and a great deal of blood loss. If Sirius had not called out warning causing James to move - which is clearly shown in the text - then the spell would have hit James directly in the back and James would most likely have have died from the blood loss. Snape was the only one who knew the countercurse and Sectumsempra could not be healed because it was Dark Magic - as is revealed in DH. Madam Pomfrey would not have been able to do anything for James if Snape had hit him in the back with that spell - as he was aiming.

On the contrary, the wand movement for each spell is vitally important - why else would they have to learn them? Why did the pupils practise them? And why was the wand movement for Wingardium Leviosa a question on Harry's Charm OWL? Because wand movements are important. As such we cannot say that wand movements are ever irrelevant. You may choose to beleive that it made no difference with that particular spell, I however choose to believe that it did.

But if as you say the wand movement is irrelevant why is it relevant here that "Snape merely pointed his wand and it still had a horrible effect" ? Why do use ythe term merely pointed if wand movement is irrelevant?

You misunderstood me. I meant that the wand movement was irrelevant to the strength of the spell. And not all spells had specific wand movements - only some of them did. There are two basic wand movements - flick and wave - or no movement and just pointing the wand. Lumos required no wand movement at all. Nor did Avada Kedavra - just point and say the words. Harry waved his wand - Snape just pointed it. So we know that Sectumsempra was a spell that did not require a specific wand movement to work. Two different wand movements had the same effect - cutting a person open.

Sectumsempra is going to do the same thing regardless of the wand movement used. What is significant to the damage incurred is where the spell hits the victim. Harry hit Draco square in the chest - his chest was cut open and he nearly died. Snape grazed James' face because he moved and Snape missed - James' face was still gashed open bad enough to splatter blood. If the spell had hit James in the back - as Snape was aiming - then James' back would have been cut open and he would most likely have died. Snape missed the Death Eater and the spell grazed George's ear - cutting it off and George could not be healed. Thankfully, the spell only grazed the side of George's head - if it had hit him in the back or the chest, he would have been cut open and would have bled to death before Lupin could get him back to the Burrow.

The effect of Sectumsempra is shown quite clearly in the text. It is a spell designed to cut - slash, gash - whichever you prefer. If you use it on another person, the amount of damage incurred depends on where the spell hits - not the wand movement used. There are only two results that will occur from the use of this spell - provided that the castor does not miss - bleeding to death or permanent loss of an appendage. Only the countercurse would reverse the effect - and Snape is the only person who knows the countercurse to this spell because he invented it. So - unless Snape performed the countercurse - anyone directly hit with this spell was going to bleed to death or suffer the permanent loss of an appendage.

No, we are told that Sectumsempra is like a blade slash. It is not "designed" to kill or permanently injure, it is desigend to slash like a knife or sword. The result of which may be death or permanent injury, but as we don't actually see anyone die from it, it is a bit of a stretch to say that that is what it was designed to do.
It is undoubtedly a nasty spell - Dark Magic - it is designed to cut - and cut in a way that required a specific counter curse. Which makes me wonder that if Snape had hit the DE he was aiming at if Snape would have healed him?

It would have cut off his hand - that's what Snape was aiming for. He missed and the spell grazed the side of George's head instead - cutting off his ear and he could not be healed. However, Snape would most likely have performed the countercurse for the Death Eater immediately - claiming to have been aiming for Lupin or George and missed. The Death Eater would not have suffered permanent injury the way poor George did.

We are not told anything about Sectumsempra. We are shown that it is a spell that will cut people open - or cut off an appendage. It has no other purpose. Death or being maimed permanently are the only results that will be achieved if the target is hit directly. Snape designed that spell "for enemies" to kill and/or cause permanent injury. It has no other use and only Snape knew the countercurse to reverse the effect.

Well how many people end up dead as a result of sectumsempra?

Only J.K. Rowling could tell us for sure. Undoubtedly - considering that it was Snape's specialty - many died or were permanently maimed because of Snape using Sectumsempra on them.

Well I think if the only problem was that Snape had called her a mudblood, she would have forgiven him. However, her reasons included the fact that Snape had a deep interest in the dark arts, Snape and his friends were planning to be death eaters and practiced dark magic on others. Plus they called all muggle borns 'mudblood' because they were prejudice against them. So the problem was far greater than merely calling her a mudblood.

Well, I hope Lily would have had more respect for herself than that. I agree that the fact that Snape called her a mudblood was not the only issue, but I think that was quite enough for her to cut all ties with him to be honest. That was just unforgivable, IMO.

I think this was the final straw for Lily. She had overlooked his fascination with the Dark Arts - made excuse after excuse for him - hoped that she could have some positive influence on him and get him to stop doing those things and stop hanging around with the Future Death Eaters of Britain. Snape openly revealing his prejudice was just the final straw - she couldn't pretend anymore. Snape had chosen his path and she didn't want anything to do with it. Thank Goodness - I was starting to lose a lot of respect for Lily until that moment. I was glad that she finally saw the truth and stood up for herself.

The only fault I find with Lily's decision is that she didn't figure it out sooner. It astounded me that it took her over five years to see Snape for what he really was. Then again, Snape was a very good actor so we can't really hold her at too much fault for being fooled for so long. It's just too bad that she was never able to repair the damage Snape did to her relationship with Petunia and causing Petunia to be so afraid of magic. Harry's life would have been so much better. :sigh:

Just a reminder of what Moriath said: I would be utterly thrilled if there was more discussion of Snape and Lily than in the Severus Snape thread. That's why we have this thread after all.

Back to Snape and Lily.

meesha! :huggles: It's so nice to see you back, and some excellent posts on your part. :tu:

But even that was selfish because Snape was only focused on himself. It didn't matter to him that James had died and Harry had been left an orphan because of him. Nor did it matter to him how Lily would have felt if she had lived and they had died. Snape only cared about his own feelings - that is what is shown in the text. But that was at least some remorse - even if it was selfish.
:sigh: That's how I feel about the matter as well-- Snape, IMO, felt remorse for the role he played in Lily's death, but was never sorry that he had played a role in causing James to die (He mocks James with a "terrible twisted grin" on his face in PoA), nor that he had rendered Harry an orphan (He continues to bully Harry, even though treating Harry with decency would have been a manner in which he would have shown true love for Lily-- putting her feelings above his own thirst for revenge), nor for all the other people he hurt or assisted in hurting while he was a Death Eater (And I do believe he killed-- Voldemort respected and treasured him enough to offer Lily the chance to live, even if he did just do so by spying and handing information to Voldemort, as with the prophecy-- that's just as bad, IMO); in fact, he never would have come to oppose Voldemort or ceased in supporting him if Voldemort hadn't personally offended him, and that reflects quite poorly on his character, IMO.

In relation to Lily (Just saw your post, Susan! :D ), I do believe his willingness to see James and Harry put to death indicates very selfish emotions on his behalf-- did he not care about her feelings, and her wishes? Lily would have been devastated had she lived and they died-- she was hysterical at the prospect of Voldemort killing Harry, and threw herself in front of him when she thought it would preserve his life for only a few more moments, because the idea of watching her precious baby boy be killed horrified every fiber of her very being. If Voldemort had simply stunned her, and then taken her to Snape, and I presume he would have (Voldemort thought Snape "desired" her)-- Lily would have been so ravaged. :(

Thank Goodness - I was starting to lose a lot of respect for Lily until that moment. I was glad that she finally saw the truth and stood up for herself.
I did as well, even though Lily remains my favorite female character in the HP series-- she was given depth and true flaws in TPT, because of the manner in which she dealt with Snape, and it all made her so much more real to me.

I think that had Snape not been harrassed by James, had Lily not continued to be around James and the rest of them, I believe that Snape never would have become a death eater. The dark arts never would have interested him, and he would have stayed close to Lily. But the fact remains that the only ones who accepted him were the Death Eaters. And I believe that Lily would have been the only one to have stopped his becoming "evil".

It seems as though before they got to Hogwarts, around all the cliques of Gryffindor, and Slytherin; that they had gotten along pretty well, and would have continued to do say had they not let their company get in the way. Also before he called Lily a mudblood, or maybe even after.. I'm not quite sure, it never mentions. He was proud of his being a half-blood, hence calling himself "The Half Blood Prince", I believe this proved that he didn't give two shakes of a rats tail about Blood Status, the way he would have liked his Slytherin Pals to believe.

I The dark arts never would have interested him, and he would have stayed close to Lily.
He was interested in the Dark Arts before he went to school-- he knew more dark hexes that half the seventh year student body, and he was shown to make them up on his own (Sectumsempra),even though doing so is exceptionally difficult-- IMO, James didn't fuel Snape's interest in the Dark Arts, his mother, who taught him about the Wizarding World, and endowed him with her book and such, did.

It seems as though before they got to Hogwarts, around all the cliques of Gryffindor, and Slytherin; that they had gotten along pretty well, and would have continued to do say had they not let their company get in the way.
I would respectfully disagree-- the relationship was shown to be conflicted from the time they were children; Snape attacks Petunia with the branch, and Lily becomes upset with him, and he and Lily snuck into Petunia's mail together, after which she became upset on the train and Snape shrugged off her concerns about Petunia's feelings because Petunia was "Only a muggle." I believe an element of conflict between them was eternally present, because Snape carried a childhood prejudice against muggles, and an affinity with the Dark Arts, and Lily, once she came to know the Wizarding World, realized just how much she opposed his behavior.

Lilypod, thank you. And I am well aware though that James didn't quite fuel his interest in the dark arts, but he certainly did make Severus feel alone, which led him right into the arms of good ole Voldemort and his death eaters.
I think that had Snape had proper friends his interest in the dark arts may have fizzled and instead he could have invented kinder spells.

Your second point though, yes i did forget about their earlier issues. Although it is possible that Lily could have changed him. It is certain that through death she did, so had they all been kinder towards eachother i think that he could have been changed.

It's all just speculation though of course.

meesha! :huggles: It's so nice to see you back, and some excellent posts on your part. :tu:

Thanks! Good to be back. I hate being offline. :huggles:

:sigh: That's how I feel about the matter as well-- Snape, IMO, felt remorse for the role he played in Lily's death, but was never sorry that he had played a role in causing James to die (He mocks James with a "terrible twisted grin" on his face in PoA), nor that he had rendered Harry an orphan (He continues to bully Harry, even though treating Harry with decency would have been a manner in which he would have shown true love for Lily-- putting her feelings above his own thirst for revenge), nor for all the other people he hurt or assisted in hurting while he was a Death Eater (And I do believe he killed-- Voldemort respected and treasured him enough to offer Lily the chance to live, even if he did just do so by spying and handing information to Voldemort, as with the prophecy-- that's just as bad, IMO); in fact, he never would have come to oppose Voldemort or ceased in supporting him if Voldemort hadn't personally offended him, and that reflects quite poorly on his character, IMO.

In relation to Lily (Just saw your post, Susan! :D ), I do believe his willingness to see James and Harry put to death indicates very selfish emotions on his behalf-- did he not care about her feelings, and her wishes? Lily would have been devastated had she lived and they died-- she was hysterical at the prospect of Voldemort killing Harry, and threw herself in front of him when she thought it would preserve his life for only a few more moments, because the idea of watching her precious baby boy be killed horrified every fiber of her very being. If Voldemort had simply stunned her, and then taken her to Snape, and I presume he would have (Voldemort thought Snape "desired" her)-- Lily would have been so ravaged. :(

Completely agree. :agree: This is one of the things that I find most disturbing about this subplot - Snape's desire for control and domination over Lily without any regard to her thoughts, opinions, or feelings. It really was quite disturbing. That really took away any impact from the remorse he showed over her death because his obsession with her was so selfish and all he was concerned about was his own feelings. That's just not love. When you love someone their thoughts, opinions, and - most significantly - their feelings should matter. Lily's feelings should have been Snape's first consideration, but he gave that no consideration at all. He was only concerned about himself and how he felt. Very disturbing.

I did as well, even though Lily remains my favorite female character in the HP series-- she was given depth and true flaws in TPT, because of the manner in which she dealt with Snape, and it all made her so much more real to me.

Oh, I agree. I can see why Lily became friends with him as a small child - he was the only other wizard around and was able to explain why she could do all those odd things - as well as being able to tell her about Hogwarts and the wizarding world. I just think it went on for too long and that bothered me. I just never saw Lily as the type of person who would willfully ignore such horrible behavior or make excuses for it. However, I also see that as a significant learning experience for her and I think it made her a stronger person overall. She saw first hand the damage that could be inflicted by the Dark Arts and devoted her life to fighting against them. That's why I still do have a lot of respect for Lily in spite of her mistake of being friends with someone like Snape for so long. She did learn from that mistake.

But it still bothers me that Lily's relationship with Petunia was irreparably damaged because of Snape - as well as Snape being responsible for Petunia's fear of magic. Essentially, Snape destroyed everything in Harry's life that could have been positive and it's disturbing that Snape was responsible to some extent for every bit of misery that Harry suffered in his childhood. I find it extremely difficult to believe that Lily would have continued to be friends with Snape for five years after what happened with Petunia - particularly considering how upset Lily was over that.

He was interested in the Dark Arts before he went to school-- he knew more dark hexes that half the seventh year student body, and he was shown to make them up on his own (Sectumsempra),even though doing so is exceptionally difficult-- IMO, James didn't fuel Snape's interest in the Dark Arts, his mother, who taught him about the Wizarding World, and endowed him with her book and such, did.

Exactly. :agree: Snape came to Hogwarts at the age of 11 already knowing more curses than half the seventh years and practicing them. James didn't cause Snape's interest in the Dark Arts. It was Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts and using them at school that fueled James' dislike of Snape - as well as Sirius'. Snape made horrible choices of his own free will - nobody forced him to do any of those horrible things. He chose that path on his own because those were his beliefs - even as a small child. It is most likely that this came from his mother since she bestowed such knowledge in him. He couldn't have learned it anywhere else - particularly living in a muggle area.

I would respectfully disagree-- the relationship was shown to be conflicted from the time they were children; Snape attacks Petunia with the branch, and Lily becomes upset with him, and he and Lily snuck into Petunia's mail together, after which she became upset on the train and Snape shrugged off her concerns about Petunia's feelings because Petunia was "Only a muggle." I believe an element of conflict between them was eternally present, because Snape carried a childhood prejudice against muggles, and an affinity with the Dark Arts, and Lily, once she came to know the Wizarding World, realized just how much she opposed his behavior.

That is an excellent point. That actually ties in with something someone pointed out on another thread. If we go strictly by the text, then Lily and Snape did not have a good friendship from the onset. Every memory Harry saw showed them arguing and/or Lily becoming furious with Snape over something he did. His derogatory comments about her family - specifically Petunia, attacking Petunia, causing a permanent estrangement between her and Petunia, his fascination with the Dark Arts and associating with the Future Death Eaters of Britain - particularly his feelings that using the Dark Arts to torture other students was "just a laugh", his plans to join Voldemort and eradicate "mudbloods" - this was a friendship fraught with conflict and disagreement from the very beginning. Snape calling her a "mudblood" was just the final straw in a long line of serious offences. Although - as I said before - that was certainly a good enough reason to cut all ties with him by itself. But with everything else on top of that - Lily was completely justified in ending that association. She really should have done so sooner.

That is another reason why I find it so difficult to believe that Lily would have remained friends with Snape for over five years. There was just nothing good shown - no positive interaction whatsoever. Everything was lies, attempts to control, anger, constant strife and disagreement - there's just nothing there that would sufficiently explain why Lily would be willing to overlook Snape's horrible behavior and make excuses for him for so long. That just doesn't make any sense.

Lilypod, thank you. And I am well aware though that James didn't quite fuel his interest in the dark arts, but he certainly did make Severus feel alone, which led him right into the arms of good ole Voldemort and his death eaters.

Snape was unpopular in general, he was not well liked except by his Slytherin friends but as you mention, they were into the dark arts too. And Lily was of course his friend. I think a better choice of friends might have helped Snape, but he was determined to be in Slytherin. I don't think it was feasible for James and Snape to be friends because they were jealous of one another and Snape loved the dark arts and James hated them - not to mention that they were in rival houses. :lol: Although I think the two could have been kinder to one another - even if that meant simply ignoring one another. (But we saw that is difficult for lads in their situation - Harry and Draco had the same problem)

But it does raise an interesting point that is on topic for this thread (Snape and Lily). I wonder if it was a part of Lily's consideration to attempt to try to draw Snape away from his interests in the dark arts, his dark arts friends and Voldemort, in order to help him fit in her circle - that is, in with a better crowd. Snape rebuked her attempts to discuss the issues in the memories we saw, but maybe that was Lily's goal.

I think that had Snape had proper friends his interest in the dark arts may have fizzled and instead he could have invented kinder spells.

Right, but Lily had to try to get Snape's interests away from the dark arts and his dark arts friends first. Plus, he wasn't fond of muggles or muggleborns which Lily and likely many of her friends were (in the houses other than Slytherin). From what we saw, Snape didn't even want to discuss it, so that likely made things difficult for Lily in that regard. For all we know, Snape was trying to convince her that the dark arts and Voldemort's ideas were best. :lol:

Your second point though, yes i did forget about their earlier issues. Although it is possible that Lily could have changed him. It is certain that through death she did, so had they all been kinder towards eachother i think that he could have been changed.

Lily didn't seem to be an unkind person overall, she seemed fair minded in the memories. I can't imagine she was mad at Snape everyday of their whole friendship - that wouldn't be much of a friendship. And I doubt Snape was unkind the majority of the time they were friends either. I don't think that their being unkind to one another was the problem. I think the problem was that the things that Snape and his friends did were looked down upon by most of the students and so that is why he (and likely his friends) were unpopular. So it would be hard for Lily to get her friends to join them and allow Snape to be surrounded by better influences. The reverse was likely true as well - his friends would not want to hang around a 'mudblood'.

Can we please avoid blanket statements. Please use "in my opinion" when analyzing the characters and situations. Deductions, suppositions, conclusions, even logical conclusions, :lol: etc, should not be presented as facts.

Lily didn't seem to be an unkind person overall, she seemed fair minded in the memories. I can't imagine she was mad at Snape everyday of their whole friendship - that wouldn't be much of a friendship. And I doubt Snape was unkind the majority of the time they were friends either. I don't think that their being unkind to one another was the problem. I think the problem was that the things that Snape and his friends did were looked down upon by most of the students and so that is why he (and likely his friends) were unpopular. So it would be hard for Lily to get her friends to join them and allow Snape to be surrounded by better influences. The reverse was likely true as well - his friends would not want to hang around a 'mudblood'.


Hmm. I must say you all your points are very well-stated.
And this last one I quite agree with. I don't think their friendship would have lasted as long as it did, however short it was; if they were fighting all the time.

I also agree that he was unpopular for his interests..

I just think that if a few minor changes had occured between Lily and Severus, that things could have been much much different for the two of them..
Heck, there could have even been a Harry Snape. :lol:

but he certainly did make Severus feel alone, which led him right into the arms of good ole Voldemort and his death eaters.
Did he? Please know that I do not condone James' behavior to Snape (Aside from "Aplogize to Evans!"), but I don't think James made Snape feel alone-- Snape and James had only spoken once when Snape was sorted, and the moment it happened he was shown being welcomed into Slytherin by Lucius Malfoy, and presumably made his friends there as well; at that point, James had merely ridiculed his House preference!

I've never understood the description of Snape as a "loner"-- he had an entire gang of friends, and Lily besides. It's true that he was bullied by James and Sirius (I always saw it as their backlash to the way he spied on them and tried to throw them out of school, and their distaste for his beliefs, although they certainly reacted in a reprehensible manner), but he had plenty of friends as well-- Lily refers to them as his "precious little Death Eater friends," and as she made excuses for him for years. I should think that he formed those friendships early on, when he and James hadn't even interacted once.

Although it is possible that Lily could have changed him.
That's where I dissent on a fundamental level-- I believe that true change has to come from within, and must be a result of effort on the behalf of the individual. Jo has expressed her distaste for the "bad boy syndrome," in which girls believe they should stick with a boy because they believe he'll change for them, or they can change him, but those girls always end up hurt, and I'm glad Lily came to realize that she couldn't change Snape-- he had to choose his "way" and change for himself, in order for such a change to be genuine.

T
Completely agree. :agree: This is one of the things that I find most disturbing about this subplot - Snape's desire for control and domination over Lily without any regard to her thoughts, opinions, or feelings.
I found it quite disturbing as well-- the scene in which Snape lurks in the bushes and stares at Lily with "greed" on his face, when he doesn't even know her, truly sends chills down my spine; it felt to me as if he was marking her as his property before he introduced himself to her, and after that, his consideration for her desires and emotional health only seemed to dwindle, IMO-- he said "So what?" when she was crying about her sister, told her "I won't let you" when she defended the Marauders, was willing to see her baby boy and husband die without remorse, even for her loss, and bullied her child incessantly, when he knew Lily had died to save him and loved him with all her heart. It always appeared to me that his wishes took precedent to hers, and the way he treated Harry is a prime example of that-- Lily would have wanted Harry to be shown respect, but Snape wanted to get revenge for James' bullying and marriage to Lily, so he chose to treat Harry horribly.

When you love someone their thoughts, opinions, and - most significantly - their feelings should matter. Lily's feelings should have been Snape's first consideration, but he gave that no consideration at all. He was only concerned about himself and how he felt. Very disturbing.
Definitely. :agree: That is shown, IMO, numerous times throughout TPT, and it turned me off to the romance as well.

Oh, I agree. I can see why Lily became friends with him as a small child - he was the only other wizard around and was able to explain why she could do all those odd things - as well as being able to tell her about Hogwarts and the wizarding world. I just think it went on for too long and that bothered me.
That's always the logical assumption upon which I base the explanation for their childhood friendship, and I believe that is why it failed-- Snape and Lily didn't have a friendship based upon true compatibility, IMO, as James/Sirius and Harry/Ron did, but rather one based upon needs and desires-- Lily was curious, and eager to learn more about the Wizarding World, because she was raised by muggles and unable to understand her abilities, and Snape appeared to desire her, what with his "greedy" looks and such. They did not come together because of a true connection between their personalities, and that is why their friendship appeared so unhealthy to me.

I just never saw Lily as the type of person who would willfully ignore such horrible behavior or make excuses for it. However, I also see that as a significant learning experience
It was a beautiful manner in which Jo developed her character-- there is a world of difference between the little Lily who clings to a boy who insults her sister out of curiosity, and the teenage Lily who stands up and says, with true conviction and courage-- "You've chosen your way; I've chosen mine." Lily transformed from a little girl, unaware of the reality of Snape's character, to a teenager ready to take a real stand, to a strong and passionate woman dedicated to fighting the Dark Side. I just adore her. :love:

But it still bothers me that Lily's relationship with Petunia was irreparably damaged because of Snape - as well as Snape being responsible for Petunia's fear of magic. Essentially, Snape destroyed everything in Harry's life that could have been positive and it's disturbing that Snape was responsible to some extent for every bit of misery that Harry suffered in his childhood.
I never thought of that before-- although I do hold Petunia responsible for the manner in which she and Vernon neglected Harry, but I always assumed she was eaten up by jealousy over Lily's abilities; I agree that Snape's attack on her would have fueled her hatred for magic.

Snape made horrible choices of his own free will - nobody forced him to do any of those horrible things.
That's why I have a great deal of difficulty feeling sympathy for him-- he was undoubtedly miserable as an adult, but, IMO, he brought that misery upon himself because of the choices he made, and it's hard for me to feel truly sorry for him (I do feel sorry that he grew up in such a dysfunctional home, because he was born into that, though)-- I feel sorry for characters such as Harry, George, Andromeda, Neville and his parents, Lupin, Sirius, Mr. and Mrs. Diggory and such because their lives were tortured by the horrible choices of others, not choices they themselves made.

Everything was lies, attempts to control, anger, constant strife and disagreement - there's just nothing there that would sufficiently explain why Lily would be willing to overlook Snape's horrible behavior and make excuses for him for so long. That just doesn't make any sense.
It felt very contrived to me as well-- IMO, we were shown nothing to truly indicate that Snape and Lily lived up to the term "best friends," and I'm left to conclude that Lily let her life be darkened for nothing. :(

All my opinion, of course. :)

Lilypod, thank you. And I am well aware though that James didn't quite fuel his interest in the dark arts, but he certainly did make Severus feel alone, which led him right into the arms of good ole Voldemort and his death eaters.

I entirely agree with you. Even in fifth year, Snape was still interested in, and extremely knowledegable about, Defense Against the Dark Arts. A knowledge of curses and such is necessary for being really good at defense, a point Dumbledore makes to Harry in HBP (about Snape, by no coinciddence, in my view). When Snape arrived at Hoqwarts, he was best friends with Lily, a Muggleborn, and the only indication we have of a possibe interest in the Dark Arts is a stement of Sirius, who could not have possibly known what motivated Snape to learn them. Lily, whom we see complaining of Snape's friends, does not complain of any unsavory interest in them on his part.

Your second point though, yes i did forget about their earlier issues. Although it is possible that Lily could have changed him. It is certain that through death she did, so had they all been kinder towards eachother i think that he could have been changed.

I think you concede too easily. :D Snape dropping the branch on Petunia is, as far as I can tell, an act of accidental magic akin to (for example) Harry blowing up Aunt Marge. This is a phenomenon Lily, who grew up ignorant of the wizard world, does not know about, so it causes a brief disagreement between her and Severus, but we see them together again (and having conspired to snoop on Petunia) in the next scene. I do not think their early relationship was troubled.

I had never thought of the possibility that the branch dropping was accidental. I'd always taken it at face value that he did that on purpose. Must think about that angle more...it was wandless, yes? :hmm:

It felt very contrived to me as well-- IMO, we were shown nothing to truly indicate that Snape and Lily lived up to the term "best friends," and I'm left to conclude that Lily let her life be darkened for nothing. :(

Oh, no, not for nothing, not at all! Her friendliness to Snape helped save the wizard world. Snape was still going to be Sorted into Slytherin, he was still going to be the target of James, and he was still going to be a Death Eater, if Lily had never bothered with him. Which means he would have reported the prophecy to Voldemort anyway, and then probably sneered when he read about the death of James and his family.

We know what happened instead, and it was due to Snape's love for Lily Evans.

I had never thought of the possibility that the branch dropping was accidental. I'd always taken it at face value that he did that on purpose. Must think about that angle more...it was wandless, yes? :hmm:

Of course. There is no evidence Snape had a wand before it was time to prepare for Hogwarts, and certainly no mention of it in the scene.

Lily asked if he had done it, NOT if he had done so deliberately. But she, of course, is not aware of the phenomenon of accidental magic, since she knows very little about magic at all. Severus denied doing it at all, but this could be because he feared a more comlicated explanation would not be believed.

I think you concede too easily. :D Snape dropping the branch on Petunia is, as far as I can tell, an act of accidental magic akin to (for example) Harry blowing up Aunt Marge.
Is there canon to suggest that Snape's act was entirely accidental? He may not have intended for a branch to drop, but I certainly believe he intended to attack Petunia, because of their animosity, and her entrance into the clearing upset him (He screams at her before she says anything to him, I believe)-- I don't think magic like that, that harms others, just comes from nowhere-- both Snape and Harry had an angry intention to hurt others, IMO, and I believe Snape consciously attacked Petunia, and then lied to Lily because he was afraid she would leave him.

I do not think their early relationship was troubled.
Based upon the train scene, I would respectfully dissent.

Snape was still going to be Sorted into Slytherin, he was still going to be the target of James, and he was still going to be a Death Eater, if Lily had never bothered with him. Which means he would have reported the prophecy to Voldemort anyway, and then probably sneered when he read about the death of James and his family.
I meant Lily's life specifically (Snape had no idea that asking Voldemort to spare her would result in the preservation of Harry's life, because it had never happened before, so I cannot credit him for that, because it was a phenomenon outside of his conscious effort/control)-- she spent years in an unhealthy friendship with a boy who (IMO) treated her very poorly and showed great disrespect to her heritage, and I truly pity her for that.

both Snape and Harry had an angry intention to hurt others, IMO, and I believe Snape consciously attacked Petunia, and then lied to Lily because he was afraid she would leave him.

Harry did not consciously attack Marge (we know, because we get to live in his head). Why do you think Snape did? :huh:

I meant Lily's life specifically (Snape had no idea that asking Voldemort to spare her would result in the preservation of Harry's life, because it had never happened before, so I cannot credit him for that, because it was a phenomenon outside of his conscious effort/control)-- she spent years in an unhealthy friendship with a boy who (IMO) treated her very poorly and showed great disrespect to her heritage, and I truly pity her for that.

Given that she died for her son, I think she would disagree with you. And I do think Snape deserves some credit. Snape, upon realizing what he had done by reporting the prophecy, did everything he could think of to try and undo it. Asking Voldemort to spare Lily was one of those things, along with warning Dumbledore, and becoming a spy. It did not all work out for Snape (nothing ever did for him... :sigh: ) but that something stuck to the wall, was a consequence of well0intentioned actions by him.

Harry did not consciously attack Marge (we know, because we get to live in his head). Why do you think Snape did? :huh:
Harry was very angry at Marge and wanted to release that anger upon her, IMO, and I see that as a parallel to Snape's situation with Petunia (Especially since he already loathed her on the basis of being a muggle and was angry when she came into the clearing and after she insulted his clothing)-- I don't believe he ordered the branch to drop, but I do believe he purposefully attacked her, or at least harbored a strong desire to hurt her, because of his anger towards her, and that manifested itself in the branch falling.

Harry's attack is shown to be mostly accidental, while Snape's is left to our interpretation, and I base mine upon his attitude toward Petunia.

Given that she died for her son, I think she would disagree with you.
:huh: Did I say Lily's decision to die for her son was a bad one? I think it was one of the most beautiful examples of sacrifice in the books, but Snape's motivation, when he asked Voldemort to spare Lily, was not to save her son (He didn't mind if Harry died, even though Lily would be devastated); it's true that because he asked Voldemort to spare her, she sacrificed herself, but that was her choice, and I credit her for that, not Snape-- he had no idea that would happen; IMO, it is the equivalent to blaming Harry for Voldemort's return because he told Lupin and Sirius not to kill Pettigrew.

Snape, upon realizing what he had done by reporting the prophecy, did everything he could think of to try and undo it. Asking Voldemort to spare Lily was one of those things, along with warning Dumbledore, and becoming a spy.
If Voldemort had revealed a plan to murder the Longbottoms based upon the Prophecy, I doubt Snape would have done anything to save them.

Oh, no, not for nothing, not at all! Her friendliness to Snape helped save the wizard world.

I thought she meant in the scheme of things. If Snape had mustered up the fortitude to withstand falling trap to the dark side, imo, he may not have become a Death Eater at all. Whoever Voldemort sent out as a spy may not have overheard the prophecy, or may have been unable to relay a prophecy that would result in the death of a child (for example if it were Regulus). So Snape not becoming a Death Eater was something that would have been valuable both for Lily and Snape, all in imo.

I believe it does come down to personal choices and I feel that is what Lily was trying to help Snape see. He didn't wish to discuss it with her, but apparently she continued to try for a very long time, despite his friends and despite her friends who were trying to get her to stop (imo).

And it was Harry who saved the wizard world, despite all of his hardships, imo.

We know what happened instead, and it was due to Snape's love for Lily Evans.

But Snape's emotions for Lily did not instill the moral considerations she had hoped, imo. Making a decision not to relay the prophecy was one Lily would have liked to have been able to instill in Snape, imo. That Snape's focus was singularly on her person by the time he attempted to reverse the damange he'd done, was something that Lily would not be proud of, imo. She really wanted to help him to not become that person at all, imo.

Lily asked if he had done it, NOT if he had done so deliberately. But she, of course, is not aware of the phenomenon of accidental magic, since she knows very little about magic at all. Severus denied doing it at all, but this could be because he feared a more comlicated explanation would not be believed.

Imo, Snape rather didn't wish to tell Lily that he'd anything to do with it at all, complicated explanations aside. Lily was very angry and accusatory - I don't think he wanted to give her food for fodder. :lol:

By the time Harry got to Hogwarts he was used to being bullied but I wonder how Lily must have felt (from beyond of course) knowing how her sister and her family and then Snape were treating poor Harry.

I was under the impression that young witches and wizards weren't allowed to have a wand before they were eleven and going to a wizard school. Remember there were traces on all young magical people somehow and I think if someone as young as Snape was had a wand the MOM would know it since it was illegal and take action just the way they do when students practice magic when on holidays - it's not allowed. However they can obviously tell when it's accicdental magic and take no action. If Snape had done it on purpose to Petunia then I'm sure he would have been in trouble for deliberately practising underage magic.

Now as for the dark arts stuff he knew - perhaps that statement about knowing more stuff than the 7th years was an exaggeration (or if you like an urban myth) and he learned most of it during his first year from Lucius et al. If his mother had taught him she'd be in trouble and that didn't happen. Snape must have had a trace on him to be invited to attend Hogwarts so that would wipe out the argument about him not being traced for illegal underage magic wouldn't it.

About he and Lily snooping etc on Petunia - well lots of younger sibling and their friends do it to their old siblings especially when the older siblings happen to be teenagers who are starting to notice the opposite sex in a different light. I think Lily and Snape were just being normal annoying youngsters out for a bit of fun and it went a bit wrong due to lack of control of magical abilities.

I think Snape looking through the bushes at a happy Lily and Petunia playing was envy at not having a sibling or friend to play with and maybe nothing much else. Remember he was a lonely child living with an abusive father who for some reason his mother couldn't or wouldn't defend both of them from.

He saw a loving relationship between the sisters and wanted something like that for himself. He was indeed a tragic figure when you come to think of it.

I thought she meant in the scheme of things.
That's exactly what I meant, wicked. :)

So Snape not becoming a Death Eater was something that would have been valuable both for Lily and Snape, all in imo.
I agree-- Lily's association with Snape didn't stop him from becoming a Death Eater (A ghastly betrayal to her, IMO, because she was a muggleborn), which led him to reporting the prophecy in the first place, and endangering her family (Though unwillingly endangering her-- Snape did know his master well enough to know what his reaction would be to such information). It something I find very sad, because she remained in a friendship with, and apparently grew attached to (Rowling says she loved him as a friend) Snape, only for him to turn his bloodist bigotry on her, by calling her a filthy mudblood, and join the Death Eaters, who wanted her dead-- IMO, that must have hurt her terribly. :(

And it was Harry who saved the wizard world, despite all of his hardships, imo.
Yes, definitely. Harry devoted himself to hunting down the horcruxes, Harry chose to sacrifice himself, and Harry stood up to "Tom" at the end-- he was both the true hero and the bravest man in the story, IMO, even if he was too modest to admit it. :lol:

That Snape's focus was singularly on her person by the time he attempted to reverse the damange he'd done, was something that Lily would not be proud of, imo.
I agree-- I don't believe Lily would have been proud of Snape's willingness to see her husband and son die, nor his hypothetical apathy if any other family had been targeted because of the Prophecy that he chose to report.

Harry was very angry at Marge and wanted to release that anger upon her, IMO, and I see that as a parallel to Snape's situation with Petunia (Especially since he already loathed her on the basis of being a muggle and was angry when she came into the clearing and after she insulted his clothing)-- I don't believe he ordered the branch to drop, but I do believe he purposefully attacked her, or at least harbored a strong desire to hurt her, because of his anger towards her, and that manifested itself in the branch falling.

Harry's attack is shown to be mostly accidental, while Snape's is left to our interpretation, and I base mine upon his attitude toward Petunia.

Reading POA and Harry's opinion of Aunt Marge, I thought Harry loathed Aunt Marge; Harry's attitude of Aunt Marge was one of extreme dislike IMO, his accidental magic sparked off when Aunt Marge insulted his parents and angered him. Just like Snape's magic was released accidentally when Petunia called his shabby robes a blouse IMO.

:huh: Did I say Lily's decision to die for her son was a bad one? I think it was one of the most beautiful examples of sacrifice in the books, but Snape's motivation, when he asked Voldemort to spare Lily, was not to save her son (He didn't mind if Harry died, even though Lily would be devastated); it's true that because he asked Voldemort to spare her, she sacrificed herself, but that was her choice, and I credit her for that, not Snape-- he had no idea that would happen; IMO, it is the equivalent to blaming Harry for Voldemort's return because he told Lupin and Sirius not to kill Pettigrew.

But it was Snape's request that created a protection in Harry's blood that saved him from death all those years later when Voldemort kills him. It was Lily all the way who decided to sacrifice for her son; I don't think any one is disputing that; but for Lily's sacrifice to mean anything at all, and not simply be a brave death like James's, Snape's request IMO helped. Had Snape *selfishly* not asked Voldemort for Lily's life, we might not have the books at all. ;)

If Voldemort had revealed a plan to murder the Longbottoms based upon the Prophecy, I doubt Snape would have done anything to save them.

We don't know this; Snape very obviously had the potential to change. We saw that; we read it as love for Lily; had he not loved Lily, then too, he may have changed in the future, for some other reason; we cannot say that he would not have changed at all IMO.

Just like Snape's magic was released accidentally when Petunia called his shabby robes a blouse IMO.
That was my point-- Snape seemed to loathe Petunia (They seemed to be engaged in some unspoken warfare over Lily, coupled with Petunia's jealousy and fear of magic and Snape's prejudice against muggles) and I believe that he was angry at her and wanted to hurt her, so the branch fell because of that desire-- unintentional magic is fueled by strong emotions; it rarely ever combusts randomly. I have a difficult time believing that Snape had no inner intention to hurt Petunia, even though he may not have directed a branch to fall on her.

Either way, canon does not specify the extent of how "unintentional" Snape's attack was. He already intentionally attacked her by insulting her status as a muggle and screaming at her when she entered the clearing, so I lean towards his physical attack being intentional as well, at least somewhat.

But it was Snape's request that created a protection in Harry's blood that saved him from death all those years later when Voldemort kills him.
Lily's sacrifice gave him the protection, not Snape's request-- he asked for her to be saved, and that led to her sacrifice because of her decision-- she, not Snape, made the conscious choice to protect Harry, so I endow her with the credit, as Snape's role in the preservation of Harry's life that night was entirely unintentional. :)

Had Snape *selfishly* not asked Voldemort for Lily's life, we might not have the books at all. ;)
His motivation was selfish, IMO, because he cared not for the lives of James and Harry, even when he went to Dumbledore-- he cared nothing for her feelings, and the way she would react to their deaths, only his own desires, which was quite selfish in my eyes.

We don't know this; Snape very obviously had the potential to change. We saw that; we read it as love for Lily; had he not loved Lily, then too, he may have changed in the future, for some other reason; we cannot say that he would not have changed at all IMO.
Jo confirmed that he would have done nothing to oppose Voldemort had Lily not been endangered, and, IMO, there is nothing in canon to indicate that Snape would ever have come to oppose Voldemort if Lily had not been one of his victims.

We don't know this; Snape very obviously had the potential to change. We saw that; we read it as love for Lily; had he not loved Lily, then too, he may have changed in the future, for some other reason; we cannot say that he would not have changed at all IMO.

I agree with you that Snape had potential, but he didn't have an incentive or desire to do so prior to Lily being targeted according to Jo (Bloomsbury Chat). There is no other canon to suggest otherwise to my recollection.

Snape may have switched sides for a different reason down the line, but that we will never know. Snape was not a unhappy Death Eater, he was pleased to serve Voldemort; he eagerly carried the words he'd overheard about the prophecy to his master.

Did he? Please know that I do not condone James' behavior to Snape (Aside from "Aplogize to Evans!"), but I don't think James made Snape feel alone-- Snape and James had only spoken once when Snape was sorted, and the moment it happened he was shown being welcomed into Slytherin by Lucius Malfoy, and presumably made his friends there as well; at that point, James had merely ridiculed his House preference!

Exactly. James expressed a dislike for Slytherin house - that had nothing to do with Snape. It was Snape who made that personal by insulting James directly. James retaliated to that.

James cannot be held responsible for the horrible choices that Snape made. Neither can Lily. Snape made those choices of his own free will. Nobody forced him to join a genocidal cult. He did that because he wanted to and shared those beliefs.

I've never understood the description of Snape as a "loner"-- he had an entire gang of friends, and Lily besides. It's true that he was bullied by James and Sirius (I always saw it as their backlash to the way he spied on them and tried to throw them out of school, and their distaste for his beliefs, although they certainly reacted in a reprehensible manner), but he had plenty of friends as well-- Lily refers to them as his "precious little Death Eater friends," and as she made excuses for him for years. I should think that he formed those friendships early on, when he and James hadn't even interacted once.

I agree. Snape was not popular with students in the other houses because of his interest in the Dark Arts. That's to be expected, IMO. But he was most certainly not a loner. He had his gang of Slytherin friends that he hung out with - making plans to join Voldemort, torturing other students. And he was friends with Lily until fifth year - and she did at least try to be a positive influence on him. Snape was definitely not a loner.

That's where I dissent on a fundamental level-- I believe that true change has to come from within, and must be a result of effort on the behalf of the individual. Jo has expressed her distaste for the "bad boy syndrome," in which girls believe they should stick with a boy because they believe he'll change for them, or they can change him, but those girls always end up hurt, and I'm glad Lily came to realize that she couldn't change Snape-- he had to choose his "way" and change for himself, in order for such a change to be genuine.

Exactly! That is probably the most disturbing thing about all of this. This is how women end up in abusive relationships - they think they can change the "bad boy". You can't change people. They have to change themselves - and even then genuine change rarely occurs.

We see this with Snape. He never changed - not really. His values remained the same - he was still prejudiced and the only reason he helped Dumbledore at all was because Dumbledore essentially used his desire for revenge to blackmail and manipulate him into it. Snape did a couple of good things for selfish reasons, but he never truly changed. He was the same bitter, vengeful person fascinated by the Dark Arts as an adult that he was at the age of 11. If Voldemort had chosen Neville, Snape wouldn't have done anything at all. He shared Voldemort's beliefs all along. It was only his desire for revenge that prompted any help from him - and that was minimal. The only thing Snape did that was really of any use was getting the sword to Harry. And that scenario was completely contrived because Harry had already been presented with the sword - Dumbledore could have given it to Harry himself.

I found it quite disturbing as well-- the scene in which Snape lurks in the bushes and stares at Lily with "greed" on his face, when he doesn't even know her, truly sends chills down my spine; it felt to me as if he was marking her as his property before he introduced himself to her, and after that, his consideration for her desires and emotional health only seemed to dwindle, IMO-- he said "So what?" when she was crying about her sister, told her "I won't let you" when she defended the Marauders, was willing to see her baby boy and husband die without remorse, even for her loss, and bullied her child incessantly, when he knew Lily had died to save him and loved him with all her heart. It always appeared to me that his wishes took precedent to hers, and the way he treated Harry is a prime example of that-- Lily would have wanted Harry to be shown respect, but Snape wanted to get revenge for James' bullying and marriage to Lily, so he chose to treat Harry horribly.

Completely agree. Snape's behavior is beyond disturbing - particularly with how he objectified Lily. He treated her like she was a shiny new toy he wanted to possess. That sent chills down my spine too.

Lily would have been appalled by the way Snape treated Harry. She would never forgive him for that.

Definitely. :agree: That is shown, IMO, numerous times throughout TPT, and it turned me off to the romance as well.

Agreed.

That's always the logical assumption upon which I base the explanation for their childhood friendship, and I believe that is why it failed-- Snape and Lily didn't have a friendship based upon true compatibility, IMO, as James/Sirius and Harry/Ron did, but rather one based upon needs and desires-- Lily was curious, and eager to learn more about the Wizarding World, because she was raised by muggles and unable to understand her abilities, and Snape appeared to desire her, what with his "greedy" looks and such. They did not come together because of a true connection between their personalities, and that is why their friendship appeared so unhealthy to me.

Exactly. That's one of the things that bothered me about all this. It makes sense that Lily would associate with Snape to some extent when they were children and he was the only other wizard she knew. Once she got to Hogwarts - that was another story. She made other friends who were actually compatible with her and shared interests. Her continued association with a boy who continually downgraded her heritage, objectified her, and had caused a permanent estrangement between her and her sister doesn't make much sense.

It was a beautiful manner in which Jo developed her character-- there is a world of difference between the little Lily who clings to a boy who insults her sister out of curiosity, and the teenage Lily who stands up and says, with true conviction and courage-- "You've chosen your way; I've chosen mine." Lily transformed from a little girl, unaware of the reality of Snape's character, to a teenager ready to take a real stand, to a strong and passionate woman dedicated to fighting the Dark Side. I just adore her. :love:

That is true - that was a good scene and it did demonstrate how much Lily had matured.

I never thought of that before-- although I do hold Petunia responsible for the manner in which she and Vernon neglected Harry, but I always assumed she was eaten up by jealousy over Lily's abilities; I agree that Snape's attack on her would have fueled her hatred for magic.

Until DH, I always figured it was primarily jealousy as well. But after seeing what Snape did to Petunia - and who knows what he did to her when Lily was not around - the whole thing makes a lot more sense. Petunia wasn't just jealous - she was mortally afraid. Jealousy could have been overcome eventually. Fear is a much stronger motivation. Snape made Petunia think magic was bad all the way around and she was afraid of it. Her behavior when they thought Harry had attacked Dudley in OOTP makes a lot more sense - that wasn't jealousy. It was fear because of what had been done to her by Snape.

That's why I have a great deal of difficulty feeling sympathy for him-- he was undoubtedly miserable as an adult, but, IMO, he brought that misery upon himself because of the choices he made, and it's hard for me to feel truly sorry for him (I do feel sorry that he grew up in such a dysfunctional home, because he was born into that, though)-- I feel sorry for characters such as Harry, George, Andromeda, Neville and his parents, Lupin, Sirius, Mr. and Mrs. Diggory and such because their lives were tortured by the horrible choices of others, not choices they themselves made.

That is a significant difference, IMO. Snape brought about his own unhappiness by making horrible choices. To be honest, I don't see his family as dysfunctional. They were poor and his parents argued - but that is also true of the Weasleys. Yet none of the Weasley kids went around practicing the Dark Arts or planning to join Voldemort. Snape had a fairly normal childhood overall, IMO. His unhappiness was his own doing and stemmed from his own poor choices. I have no sympathy whatsoever for him.

It felt very contrived to me as well-- IMO, we were shown nothing to truly indicate that Snape and Lily lived up to the term "best friends," and I'm left to conclude that Lily let her life be darkened for nothing. :(

Completely agree.

I had never thought of the possibility that the branch dropping was accidental. I'd always taken it at face value that he did that on purpose. Must think about that angle more...it was wandless, yes? :hmm:

Is there canon to suggest that Snape's act was entirely accidental? He may not have intended for a branch to drop, but I certainly believe he intended to attack Petunia, because of their animosity, and her entrance into the clearing upset him (He screams at her before she says anything to him, I believe)-- I don't think magic like that, that harms others, just comes from nowhere-- both Snape and Harry had an angry intention to hurt others, IMO, and I believe Snape consciously attacked Petunia, and then lied to Lily because he was afraid she would leave him.

It was wandless, but it was also deliberate. Unlike Harry, Snape grew up knowing that he was a wizard and he had more control because of that. He might not have been able to control how it occurred, but the branch fell on Petunia because Snape wanted to physically hurt Petunia. But Snape showed more control than that so it is more likely that he was able to control the branch as well.

Similarly, we see that young Tom Riddle has that kind of control - and he didn't even know that he was a wizard until Dumbledore told him. Yet he was able to use his powers to hurt others. Snape knew that he was a wizard and he knew how to use his powers even without a wand. And he also knew that he wouldn't be punished for it because the Ministry would just chalk it up to "accidents" because he was young.

Based upon the train scene, I would respectfully dissent.

Completely agree. All those early memories show either an argument or Lily becoming furious with Snape over something he said or did and stalking off in anger. She was particularly upset with him when she boarded the train because of what happened with Petunia.

I meant Lily's life specifically (Snape had no idea that asking Voldemort to spare her would result in the preservation of Harry's life, because it had never happened before, so I cannot credit him for that, because it was a phenomenon outside of his conscious effort/control)-- she spent years in an unhealthy friendship with a boy who (IMO) treated her very poorly and showed great disrespect to her heritage, and I truly pity her for that.

Exactly. In addition, Jo has since revealed that Voldemort wanted the Potters to join him so Snape's actions are completely irrelevant. Voldemort would have given Lily that choice regardless of whether Snape asked him to spare her or not because he wanted her to join him.

Overall, Lily's life would have been a lot better if she had never met Snape. So would Harry's for that matter.

Harry was very angry at Marge and wanted to release that anger upon her, IMO, and I see that as a parallel to Snape's situation with Petunia (Especially since he already loathed her on the basis of being a muggle and was angry when she came into the clearing and after she insulted his clothing)-- I don't believe he ordered the branch to drop, but I do believe he purposefully attacked her, or at least harbored a strong desire to hurt her, because of his anger towards her, and that manifested itself in the branch falling.

Harry's attack is shown to be mostly accidental, while Snape's is left to our interpretation, and I base mine upon his attitude toward Petunia.

Actually, Harry's attack on Marge was deliberate as well. He had less control over his powers than Snape did, but he was furious with Marge and felt she deserved that. Not a shining moment for Harry - but he was corrupted with having a piece of Voldemort's soul inside his head and - unlike Snape - Harry had actually been abused and neglected for the majority of his life by the Dursleys. Marge contributed to that abuse - each of her visits stood out vividly in Harry's memory. The difference in these two attacks is the fact that Harry reacted in anger based on years of abuse and what Marge was saying about his parents. Snape attacked Petunia because she was "just a muggle" who had the audacity to stand up to him when he insulted her.

At the very least, the branch fell because Snape wanted to physically hurt Petunia - a far cry from Harry causing Marge to fill up with air, IMO. However, Snape exhibited a much higher level of control so it seems more likely that he deliberately made the branch fall on her head. He had as much control - if not more - than young Tom Riddle did at that age.

:huh: Did I say Lily's decision to die for her son was a bad one? I think it was one of the most beautiful examples of sacrifice in the books, but Snape's motivation, when he asked Voldemort to spare Lily, was not to save her son (He didn't mind if Harry died, even though Lily would be devastated); it's true that because he asked Voldemort to spare her, she sacrificed herself, but that was her choice, and I credit her for that, not Snape-- he had no idea that would happen; IMO, it is the equivalent to blaming Harry for Voldemort's return because he told Lupin and Sirius not to kill Pettigrew.

Exactly. It was Lily's choice and her actions that saved Harry. And since Voldemort wanted Lily to join him anyway, Snape's actions become completely irrelevant in regards to what happened that night.

If Voldemort had revealed a plan to murder the Longbottoms based upon the Prophecy, I doubt Snape would have done anything to save them.

We know that for certain. Jo already addressed that question. If Voldemort had chosen Neville, Snape would not have done anything whatsoever. It was Lily's death that prompted his desire for revenge. Snape didn't actually want to help the Order because he shared Voldemort's beliefs. He wanted revenge over Lily and that's the only reason Dumbledore was able to manipulate him into helping at all.

I agree-- Lily's association with Snape didn't stop him from becoming a Death Eater (A ghastly betrayal to her, IMO, because she was a muggleborn), which led him to reporting the prophecy in the first place, and endangering her family (Though unwillingly endangering her-- Snape did know his master well enough to know what his reaction would be to such information). It something I find very sad, because she remained in a friendship with, and apparently grew attached to (Rowling says she loved him as a friend) Snape, only for him to turn his bloodist bigotry on her, by calling her a filthy mudblood, and join the Death Eaters, who wanted her dead-- IMO, that must have hurt her terribly. :(

Exactly. This is one of the truly reprehensible things about Snape, IMO. He knew that telling Voldemort about that prophecy would mean that Voldemort would murder an innocent baby and its parents. He did not care in the slightest. It was only the possibility of Lily dying that prompted him to go to Dumbledore - and that's debatable because it is most likely that the first meeting was arranged by Voldemort to get Snape on the inside as a spy. Snape had no reason to actually go to Dumbledore at that point because Voldemort had agreed to spare Lily. It was Lily's actual death that made Snape want revenge. At that point, Dumbledore was able to blackmail and manipulate Snape into helping him. Though I still don't see where Snape was of much help until the whole thing with the sword - which was unnecessary.

Yes, definitely. Harry devoted himself to hunting down the horcruxes, Harry chose to sacrifice himself, and Harry stood up to "Tom" at the end-- he was both the true hero and the bravest man in the story, IMO, even if he was too modest to admit it. :lol:

Exactly. :agree: And he did not do any of that because he wanted revenge. He did it because it was the right thing to do - because he couldn't bear the thought of Voldemort killing anyone else because of him - because he couldn't bear the thought of what would happen to the wizarding world if Voldemort won. That is what makes a true hero.

I agree-- I don't believe Lily would have been proud of Snape's willingness to see her husband and son die, nor his hypothetical apathy if any other family had been targeted because of the Prophecy that he chose to report.

Absolutely not. Lily would have been appalled at Snape's actions - particularly how he treated Harry.

All my opinion and all that. :)

I have a difficult time believing that Snape had no inner intention to hurt Petunia, even though he may not have directed a branch to fall on her.

I thought it was anger that sparked off the accidental magic, like in Harry's case with Aunt Marge; both Harry and Snape were angry because Marge and petunia had insulted them IMO.

Lily's sacrifice gave him the protection, not Snape's request-- he asked for her to be saved, and that led to her sacrifice because of her decision-- she, not Snape, made the conscious choice to protect Harry, so I endow her with the credit, as Snape's role in the preservation of Harry's life that night was entirely unintentional. :)

Then why did James's sacrifice not provide the protection to Lily and Harry? Because James and Lily were not going to step aside to live happily when it would mean their baby was going to get killed. Both like any other parent would want to die for their kid. Lily's sacrifice meant something because Snape's request was heeded by Voldemort. Had Voldemort not intended to give Lily a choice and had killed her like he did James, I think her life which was cast between Voldemort and Harry (the books says something like this) would not ahve helped. because that is exactly what James did IMO and it did not save Lily IMO.

Both James and Lily made a concious choice to die rather than live without their son; I don't think they were making a concious decision to provide any type of sacrifice for Harry. That was Snape only IMO.

On what do you base the fact that Lily's made a concious desicion to endow Harry with a lasting protection in his blood? I don't think there is anything in canon to tell us so.


His motivation was selfish, IMO, because he cared not for the lives of James and Harry, even when he went to Dumbledore-- he cared nothing for her feelings, and the way she would react to their deaths, only his own desires, which was quite selfish in my eyes.

Sure. He was a death eater at that time. he did not care. But after he turned, I think that his remorse was for all his actions rather than just for Lily; his love for Lily helped him turn, see the error of his ways, but his change was IMO all his actions. Otherwise I don't think he could have worked as he did for the rest of his life, long, long after lily died IMO.

Jo confirmed that he would have done nothing to oppose Voldemort had Lily not been endangered, and, IMO, there is nothing in canon to indicate that Snape would ever have come to oppose Voldemort if Lily had not been one of his victims.

There is nothing in canon to also indicate that Snape would not have ever turned, if Lily had not been targeted IMO. :)

I'm so flattered to be quoted by you meesha. :blush:


We see this with Snape. He never changed - not really. His values remained the same - he was still prejudiced and the only reason he helped Dumbledore at all was because Dumbledore essentially used his desire for revenge to blackmail and manipulate him into it. Snape did a couple of good things for selfish reasons, but he never truly changed. He was the same bitter, vengeful person fascinated by the Dark Arts as an adult that he was at the age of 11. If Voldemort had chosen Neville, Snape wouldn't have done anything at all. He shared Voldemort's beliefs all along. It was only his desire for revenge that prompted any help from him - and that was minimal. The only thing Snape did that was really of any use was getting the sword to Harry. And that scenario was completely contrived because Harry had already been presented with the sword - Dumbledore could have given it to Harry himself.
That's how I feel about it as well-- Snape allowed himself to be used by Dumbledore (to the point that Dumbledore set him up for death) because his obsession with Lily fueled his desire to get revenge upon Voldemort, and he allowed Dumbledore to manipulate him and give him Orders-- it was never Snape's own choice to protect Harry, but rather Dumbledore's order that he should protect Harry if he "truly loved Lily Evans;" he continued to order Snape around for the rest of his days, and their relationship left me with a very bad taste in my mouth-- where was Snape's conviction in all of this? :sigh:

Lily would have been appalled by the way Snape treated Harry. She would never forgive him for that.
Agreed-- she loved Harry with her whole heart, and she loved James dearly too, I believe she would find Snape's actions on the hill unforgivable as well.

She made other friends who were actually compatible with her and shared interests.
I thought Jo made a point to show that Lily preferred these friends-- in SWM, Snape walks alone while she sits by the lake with all of her girlfriends, with whom she probably had functional relationships.

Her behavior when they thought Harry had attacked Dudley in OOTP makes a lot more sense - that wasn't jealousy. It was fear because of what had been done to her by Snape.
:wow: An excellent catch! She did see the dark side of magic, and she must have been hurt by her little sister's association with Snape when he had attacked her, particularly because she heard about the dementors from Snape, when she was eavesdropping into their conversation in the trees-- as she was never properly inculcated with any more knowledge of magic, that must have set her opinion that it was "dark" and "freaky" for life.

I do wonder if meeting James, who was funny and charming, softened Petunia's attitude, even temporarily, but it's not clear how much contact they had in canon.

I find it odd that Petunia never mentioned Snape in her tirade in PS/SS. :hmm:

To be honest, I don't see his family as dysfunctional. They were poor and his parents argued - but that is also true of the Weasleys. Yet none of the Weasley kids went around practicing the Dark Arts or planning to join Voldemort. Snape had a fairly normal childhood overall, IMO.
I got the impression that he was neglected by his parents, because he was so unwashed and poorly clothed, and they left him crying in the corner while they were "still fighting," as he tells Lily; something about his father gave me a frightening feeling, although his parents' unhappy marriage may not have manifested into abuse of him-- I believe his mother cared for him, as she taught him all about the magical world and gave him her potions book, so he was not completely alone at home before he met Lily.

It was wandless, but it was also deliberate. Unlike Harry, Snape grew up knowing that he was a wizard and he had more control because of that. He might not have been able to control how it occurred, but the branch fell on Petunia because Snape wanted to physically hurt Petunia.
That's how I saw it-- IMO, he wanted to hurt her, but he may or may not have specifically chosen to hit her with a branch, although his extensive knowledge of hexes prior to Hogwarts and his extensive magical ability (He created spells at fifteen, for crying out loud) would have a tendency to indicate that he had control over the indcident.

Voldemort would have given Lily that choice regardless of whether Snape asked him to spare her or not because he wanted her to join him.
But he didn't give James that chance, so I wonder if he would have killed her out of rage, because he seems too proud, to me, to ask Lily to join him after she and James rejected him and defied him three times! (Or perhaps it would be the other way round, and he would be even more determined to get them on his side.) Nevertheless, Snape had no idea that asking Voldemort to spare Lily would result in the preservation of Harry's life, so I hardly credit him for that. Jo revealed once that, in the earliest drafts of PS/SS, Harry found the stone in his parents' vault, which might have indicated that Lily, the supreme potioneer, was an alchemist-- that would have been a much more creative storyline, IMO, especially since we know Voldemort had an interest in the stone, even if he had an aversion to relying on it.

Actually, Harry's attack on Marge was deliberate as well.
:blush: Was it? I really need to reread PoA!

The difference in these two attacks is the fact that Harry reacted in anger based on years of abuse and what Marge was saying about his parents. Snape attacked Petunia because she was "just a muggle" who had the audacity to stand up to him when he insulted her.
Definitely. :agree:

He wanted revenge over Lily and that's the only reason Dumbledore was able to manipulate him into helping at all.
That's what I've tried to say all along-- his heart wasn't truly into working against Voldemort, the way most of the Order's were, but he was rather motivated to join Dumbledore because of Lily's death, and nothing more, because she was special to him (In a rather twisted and obsessive way, IMO)-- he wasn't at all concerned with Voldemort's other crimes.

and that's debatable because it is most likely that the first meeting was arranged by Voldemort to get Snape on the inside as a spy.
Voldemort ordered Snape to spy on Dumbledore and being teaching at Hogwarts-- did Dumbledore ever know that?

Snape had no reason to actually go to Dumbledore at that point because Voldemort had agreed to spare Lily.
I think he may have gone to Dumbledore because he was afraid Voldemort, loyal only to himself, wouldn't spare her because he loved killing so much...

Ahhh, sorry this is so short, your whole post was fantastic but I'm so tired. :D


Then why did James's sacrifice not provide the protection to Lily and Harry?
James didn't have a choice-- he showed the same kind of courage and love for Harry that Lily did, but he wasn't given the choice to step aside, and that was not his fault.

My point was that Snape's intention was never to save Harry-- he had no intention to do so, nor did he know that his request would lead to Lily's protection of Harry, because it had never happened before. Therefore, I refuse to give him credit for that, because it was an accident on his part, IMO.

I don't think they were making a concious decision to provide any type of sacrifice for Harry. That was Snape only IMO.
:huh: James and Lily made the conscious decision to sacrifice their lives for Harry. Snape never did-- his death was set up by Dumbledore.

On what do you base the fact that Lily's made a concious desicion to endow Harry with a lasting protection in his blood? I don't think there is anything in canon to tell us so.
She chose to stand in front of him, and that was her choice to protect him (Snape never wanted to protect baby Harry, IMO)-- she didn't know that her sacrifice would have such a powerful effect, but she did make the conscious decision to sacrifice her life for Harry, and that was the beautiful effect of her decision.

There is nothing in canon to also indicate that Snape would not have ever turned, if Lily had not been targeted IMO. :)
See meesha's post. :)

Both James and Lily made a concious choice to die rather than live without their son; I don't think they were making a concious decision to provide any type of sacrifice for Harry. That was Snape only IMO.

How did Snape do that?

I agree James and Lily both sacrificed themselves for their family and they didn't think it was making a blood sacrifice. Snape didn't believe he was making a sacrifice for Harry - he thought Harry was going to die and Snape hadn't gotten the message to him. It was sheer luck that Harry happened to be there to get them from Snape. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I meant that it was Snape's request that got the protection, without his knowledge and Lily's knowledge though; not that Lily made a concious decision to invoke ancient magic that would protect Harry. That request was all Snape; James and Lily had nothing to do with that IMO.

And I also agree that Snape did not know that he was making a request for Harry's sake. But what I meant was that had Snape not asked for Lily's life, Harry would not have got his protection; that protection was not because of Lily, that was because of Snape IMO.

And I also agree that Snape did not know that he was making a request for Harry's sake. But what I meant was that had Snape not asked for Lily's life, Harry would not have got his protection; that protection was not because of Lily, that was because of Snape IMO.
Snape's request would be useless without Lily's choice, or even Voldemort's decision to give her the chances to live in the first place. It was Voldemort who gave her the choice (he might have had his own reasons for allowing her to live - we know he wanted her on his side as well) and Lily who made the choice to die for her son.

Lily did not make the choice to die for her son as it were. She died trying to protect him just as James died trying to protect Lily and Harry, knowing fully well, that a few seconds after he died, LIly and Harry may die too. Lily too fell in front of the AK, because she could not bear to see her son being killed in front of her eyes.

I don't know why Lily did not reach out for her wand; I think that was JO, because the moment she fought back, the protection would be nullified. The *sacrifice*was because she did not fight. That is actually a plot hole IMO, because James was surprised; I can understand that (even though he should have gone for the wand when he felt the front door crashing IMO); he did not have a wand on him; Lily had the time, and as a witch, the first thing she should have done was to summon her wand and try to escape, and if that were not possible, she should have used James's warning (he cries out to her telling her to take Harry and run) to, at the very least, summon her wand. Instead she does not fight at all IMO.

I am amazed she did not, especially when James warned her and a minute later she knows he's dead, trying to give her those precious seconds to leave or to at least protect herself and Harry as much as she could, instead she pleaded with Voldemort and then died IMO. I think this is a plot hole actually, because it makes Lily look incapable of even summoning her wand to her when James had warned her and she knew he had died.

Yes I too cannot for the life of me wonder why Lily just didn't grab Harry and her wand and apparate to safety as I certainly would have done. But then if she had we wouldn't have the story would we?

I am now sometimes wondering if Lily didn't still love Snape in some way even though she didn't like him in the end. You know you can love someone but not like them very much for some reason. As someone said earlier (I can't remember who - sorry) she still could have cared even though she didn't like what he had become. I wonder what happened in the afterlife when
Snape died. I would imagine after she whacked him hard for misstreating Harry et al she - like her son - forgave him and tried to get even James and the others to be less harsh in their attitude towards him - hopefully.

Lily did not make the choice to die for her son as it were. She died trying to protect him just as James died trying to protect Lily and Harry, knowing fully well, that a few seconds after he died, LIly and Harry may die too. Lily too fell in front of the AK, because she could not bear to see her son being killed in front of her eyes.

I don't know why Lily did not reach out for her wand; I think that was JO, because the moment she fought back, the protection would be nullified. The *sacrifice*was because she did not fight. That is actually a plot hole IMO, because James was surprised; I can understand that (even though he should have gone for the wand when he felt the front door crashing IMO); he did not have a wand on him; Lily had the time, and as a witch, the first thing she should have done was to summon her wand and try to escape, and if that were not possible, she should have used James's warning (he cries out to her telling her to take Harry and run) to, at the very least, summon her wand. Instead she does not fight at all IMO.

I am amazed she did not, especially when James warned her and a minute later she knows he's dead, trying to give her those precious seconds to leave or to at least protect herself and Harry as much as she could, instead she pleaded with Voldemort and then died IMO. I think this is a plot hole actually, because it makes Lily look incapable of even summoning her wand to her when James had warned her and she knew he had died.

Well people don't always react as logically in the moment as we think they should when we talk about it in hindsight. Snape actually had his wand in hand and knew Voldemort was going to kill him, but did not even attempt to stun the man and get away - or better yet, send a harsh Sectumsempra at the casing around Nagini. Or at the very least throw a shielding spell around himself. Snape was startled despite his pretty good defensive skills. James too was surprised, but he thought enough to tell Lily to run before racing ahead to give her a few seconds at least to get away. For Lily it was likely the same, she just wanted to get to Harry, collect him and run out of there as quickly as possible.

Ok wicked boy can you explain why Lily didn't apparate as most people would have done. That's the quickest way to get away and Voldemort would not have known where they had gone for a little while anyway and if she moved around as Harry, Hermione and Ron did with protective spells etc things MIGHT have been a little different - but as I said before - then there would have been no story or a different one which wasn't as effective.

I guessed by your response you didn't read my last post?

Ok wicked boy can you explain why Lily didn't apparate as most people would have done. That's the quickest way to get away and Voldemort would not have known where they had gone for a little while anyway and id she moved around as Harry, Hermione and Ron did with protective spells etc things MIGHT have been a little different - but as I said before - then there would have been no story or a different one which wasn't as effective. I guessed by your response you didn't read my last post?

Well it is possible that they had wards up so that no one could apparate in or out for safety reasons. I don't think anyone could apparate in or out of #12G Place - that was protected via a secret keeper too. Plus, Lily had no wand because she was in a rush to get to Harry - so even if she thought of it and it was possible, she couldn't have apparated anyway.

I was saying earlier on, it is easy for us to come up with all types of things after the fact that one could do. However, in an emergency, surprise situation, most people run on pure reaction and instantly prioritize. You know, if you wake up and the house is on fire and you have a fire extinguisher in the Kitchen - and a baby up a flight of stairs - which are you going to run for? Most people would run and get their baby and try to flee, even if as an after thought the fire extinguisher might have worked to douse the flames.

Lily and James may not have even recalled in that hectic moment exactly where they had left their wands. Running around the house yelling accio wand when Voldemort is at the door - and their baby is who he came to kill - well both of their minds immediately flew to protecting the baby - and James to protecting Lily as well.

Well people don't always react as logically in the moment as we think they should when we talk about it in hindsight.

I agree.

Snape actually had his wand in hand and knew Voldemort was going to kill him, but did not even attempt to stun the man and get away - or better yet, send a harsh Sectumsempra at the casing around Nagini.

Snape did not know Voldemort would kill him, because I believe he did not know about the Elder wand. So he was trying desperately to get permission from Voldemort to go and look out for Harry Potter. But Voldemort surprised him and before he could reach for his wand, Voldemort had released Nagini to kill him IMO.

Or at the very least throw a shielding spell around himself. Snape was startled despite his pretty good defensive skills.

That would mean a fight with Voldemort and snape did not want that at that time. He would have to fight his way out and he would not want to take a chance that he might be killed before he got the message to Harry IMO. But that was what happened anyway and had JO not rushed Harry there, Snape would have died without giving the memories to Harry IMO. *shakes fist at Dumbledore for sacrificing Snape*

James too was surprised, but he thought enough to tell Lily to run before racing ahead to give her a few seconds at least to get away.

I agree. That was what James did; he had not the presence of mind to summon his wand; perhaps he was terrified, but he still had the presence of mind to warn Lily and also throw himself at Voldemort and give lily that much time to try and escape from there.

For Lily it was likely the same, she just wanted to get to Harry, collect him and run out of there as quickly as possible.

Sure. But she does not even summon her wand, and I don't know what other reason there could be for that except that it is a plot hole or that Lily was that incapable. And I cannot believe that she would be so, because she was a member of the order and she has defied Voldemort and his death eaters three times IMO.

Ok wicked boy can you explain why Lily didn't apparate as most people would have done. That's the quickest way to get away and Voldemort would not have known where they had gone for a little while anyway and id she moved around as Harry, Hermione and Ron did with protective spells etc things MIGHT have been a little different - but as I said before - then there would have been no story or a different one which wasn't as effective.

I guessed by your response you didn't read my last post?

Wicked answered it already; Voldemort could have had anti apparition spells; but a portkey or had they had a wand on them; they could ahve at least given voldemort a fight, before they went down. They could have even attached the portkey to Harry and sent him off elsewhere. But then, Harry would not have got the name of the BWL and nor would he have got his mother's protection. Both needed Lily to die without a fight IMO.

He never changed - not really
On the contrary, he changed completely that IS canon.
As someone else said earlier (or perhaps it was on the other thread) the Snape who met Dumbeldore on the hill is very different front he Snape who died in the shack.
Even the Snape on the hill is different from the Snape who gave the prophecy to Voldemort.

Exactly. In addition, Jo has since revealed that Voldemort wanted the Potters to join him so Snape's actions are completely irrelevant. Voldemort would have given Lily that choice regardless of whether Snape asked him to spare her or not because he wanted her to join him.
But when asked before DH Jo avoided answering the question as it was pertinent to the plot. If it had just been a case of Voldemort would have asked anyway then there would have been no need to hide the reason. As it is Snape loved Lily, so he asked Voldemort to spare her, so Voldemort gave her the choice to step aside, so Harry had the protection of his mother's sacrifice. That is how it happened in the books. As such I would not say that Snape's actions are completely irrelevant.
I could argue that James is completely irrelevant because there was the possibilty of Lily falliing for Severus if he had sorted his act out, so she might have married Severus. But I prefer to look at what actually happened in the books rather than describe something in the books as "irrelevant" because of something that "might" have happened differently.

I find it odd that Petunia never mentioned Snape in her tirade in PS/SS
Perhaps because what happened with Snape didn't "set her opinion that it was "dark" and "freaky" for life."

Therefore, I refuse to give him credit for that, because it was an accident on his part, IMO.Well I wouldn't give him credit for it, but it was SNape's actions that set the whole scenario up.

his heart wasn't truly into working against Voldemort
Harry certainly believed that it was. He gives his opinion on the matter quite plainly to Voldemort "He was never yours from the moment you threatened her (lily)"

where was Snape's conviction in all of this?
Snape's conviction was to be seen plain as day in his actions right up to the very moment he died. His last act was to fulfill his mission to give Harry the information he needed. At anytime he could have done a runner. Dumbledore even asks him if he is going to run when it becomes clear that Voldemort is returning (in GoF) but Snape does not run - he stays and fights to the bitter end - and it was a very bitter end for Snape. That is where we see Snape's conviction. Actions speak louder than words.

Snape did not know Voldemort would kill him, because I believe he did not know about the Elder wand. So he was trying desperately to get permission from Voldemort to go and look out for Harry Potter. But Voldemort surprised him and before he could reach for his wand, Voldemort had released Nagini to kill him IMO.

Voldemort not only told Snape about the Elder Wand, but he also told Snape he would have to kill him. So Snape knew about the Elder Wand and that Voldemort was going to kill him. He even lifted his wand, but didn't issue a single curse. And when Nagini came at him, he was too shocked to do anything before it encased him. But we saw Snape react pretty quickly to Minerva's spell - Snape used a shield against her. But in the shack, he was taken by surprise. Same thing happened to Lily (and James).

Sure. But she does not even summon her wand,

I think you missed my very last post, just above your last one. ;)

Well it is possible that they had wards up so that no one could apparate in or out for safety reasons. I don't think anyone could apparate in or out of #12G Place - that was protected via a secret keeper too. Plus, Lily had no wand because she was in a rush to get to Harry - so even if she thought of it and it was possible, she couldn't have apparated anyway.

I saw this wicked! :)

I was saying earlier on, it is easy for us to come up with all types of things after the fact that one could do. However, in an emergency, surprise situation, most people run on pure reaction and instantly prioritize. You know, if you wake up and the house is on fire and you have a fire extinguisher in the Kitchen - and a baby up a flight of stairs - which are you going to run for? Most people would run and get their baby and try to flee, even if as an after thought the fire extinguisher might have worked to douse the flames.

I missed these two paragraphs. :)

Lily and James may not have even recalled in that hectic moment exactly where they had left their wands. Running around the house yelling accio wand when Voldemort is at the door - and their baby is who he came to kill - well both of their minds immediately flew to protecting the baby - and James to protecting Lily as well.

I agree. But you know what, if they had their wands in a place they had to search, well that's too bad IMO.

I agree of course in such a situation, it was all they could do to try their best to escape sowmhow, but to a witch or wizard, a wand is almost a part of them and I won't believe they would be that careless to leave it anywhere.

James, I can understand, he was surprised; but Lily had a little time and she does not search for her wand, assuming she could not apparate out of there. She would have at least tried to get in a curse or two before Voldemort got her.

Snape had no time to think before Nagini came at him; like James ( and I am assuming that the wards did not tell him that someone was coming). I would not say the same of Lily. She had a few minutes. Perhaps she left her wand downstairs and was stuck upstairs. That could be one reason I can think of, for her not to have her wand with her.

Though, we see Molly Weasley and also everyone in the WW; all of them have their wands on them; no one leaves their wands in their rooms and walks around without them even in their homes (Molly) IMO.

That was why I thought this was a plot hole.

I very much agree with you TGW - it doesn't make sense.

I agree with you TGW the idea that JAmes and Lily didn't have there wands on them when they were in the position they are in is ludicrous - especially given the way everyone carries there wand around with them all the time.
I definitely saw it as a plot hole.

And to be honest I don't really understand why Jo wrote it that way because James could have faced Voldemort with a wand and lost and then gine after Lily who was with Harry and perhaps had put her wand down while she was dealing with Harry. There are so many possibilities that to have them wandless just seemed a bit lame to me.

Sorry Rant over!

I think if Snape knew that James hadn't had his wand then I can well understand him feeling angry that James hadn't been able to save Lily.

I think if Snape knew that James hadn't had his wand then I can well understand him feeling angry that James hadn't been able to save Lily.

Imo, Snape would be exhibiting irrational behavior if he felt that way, so I wouldn't find it understandable. But Snape could actually control his feelings associated with those who had worked with him to cause Lily's death (living with Peter, her betrayer, and working with Voldemort, her killer, until the day he died), it was only James he could not control his feelings about. I agree that Snape behaved in an irrational manner when it came to his emotions regarding James, but it is not really understandable to me. Snape was purportedly intelligent, but his ability to be objective when it came to James was pretty much nonexistent, imo. :lol:

Perhaps because what happened with Snape didn't "set her opinion that it was "dark" and "freaky" for life."
Actually I believe it would have-- Petunia had absolutely no understanding of magic (I doubt she came to develop any, either, because her relationship with Lily was so strained), and she was physically harmed because of it as a child-- that would go along way in forming her fear, IMO, because it instilled a conflict within her that was never emotionally resolved.

When she began ranting about Lily in the shack, when Hagrid comes to get Harry, she goes on about Lily being a "freak," practicing magic outside of school, her parents' pride, and "that Potter," but she never mentions Snape, whom she saw as an "awful boy" and who lured Lily into the magical world and used magic to attack her-- I just saw that as odd, but I suppose it was for plot purposes.

Well I wouldn't give him credit for it, but it was SNape's actions that set the whole scenario up.
Harry's action (Asking Lupin and Sirius to spare Pettigrew based on honor for his father) set up Voldemort's return, and I don't blame him for that, because it was his intention to merely show Peter mercy and he had not way of knowing what the consequence of his action would be-- the same goes for Snape, because he never meant to save Harry that night when he asked for Lily to be spared.

Harry certainly believed that it was. He gives his opinion on the matter quite plainly to Voldemort "He was never yours from the moment you threatened her (lily)"
I meant that his heart was never into working against Voldemort in his entirety-- he wanted to save Lily, and doing so necessitated turning against Voldemort and going to Dumbledore because of the circumstances. Snape didn't turn against Voldemort and his principles specifically, but was forced to turn against him to save Lily, and everything he did for Dumbledore was fueled by his obsessive love for Lily, and never a true opposition to what Voldemort stood for.

Snape's conviction was to be seen plain as day in his actions right up to the very moment he died. His last act was to fulfill his mission to give Harry the information he needed.
My issue is that most everything he did he did because he was manipulated by Dumbledore-- he himself didn't step up and offer to protect Lily's son, but was rather forced into doing so because Dumbledore, the man with the power, ordered him to-- he merely followed Dumbledore's orders and allowed Dumbledore to use him, to the very end of his life, IMO, because Dumbledore set him up to die. He did what he was ordered (bringing Harry the sword, telling him he needed to die, etc), but when left to his own devices, he treated Harry horribly, IMO, and his heart was never into keeping Harry alive, just getting revenge for Lily's death.

At anytime he could have done a runner. Dumbledore even asks him if he is going to run when it becomes clear that Voldemort is returning (in GoF) but Snape does not run
Actually, it was better for him to stay in the school because Voldemort wanted to kill him and believed that Snape had left him-- he was endangered because of Voldemort's return, so it behooved him to stay under Dumbledore's protection.

And to be honest I don't really understand why Jo wrote it that way because James could have faced Voldemort with a wand and lost and then gine after Lily who was with Harry and perhaps had put her wand down while she was dealing with Harry. There are so many possibilities that to have them wandless just seemed a bit lame to me.

I really don't know about James, but Lily, I think was wandless for the sacrifice. She had to refuse the choice Voldemort gave her, for Harry to get the blood protection. But Jo could have worked it nicely even with a wand IMO; she could have had Voldemort disarm Lily the moment he walks into the room and then give Lily the choice and get the protection. This way it looks as if Lily was waiting for Voldemort to come, pleads and then dies IMO.

I meant that his heart was never into working against Voldemort in his entirety-- he wanted to save Lily, and doing so necessitated turning against Voldemort and going to Dumbledore because of the circumstances. Snape didn't turn against Voldemort and his principles specifically, but was forced to turn against him to save Lily, and everything he did for Dumbledore was fueled by his obsessive love for Lily, and never a true opposition to what Voldemort stood for.

This is very interesting. What do you base it upon, because I got the impression of Snape as truly horrorstruck when he came to Dumbeldore after Lily died.

And Harry's recognition of Snape not in the epilogue, but during the Final Battle with Voldemort where he tells the world Snape was Dumbledore's man, I thought was a comparison to himself, Harry I mean. Harry called himself Dumbeldore's man and he called Snape the same and to Voldemort at that. That's canon. For harry to say that, I would presume Snape had truly turned, for whatever purpose or whomsoever sake it may be.

It did not look to me that Snape was forced to turn away from Voldemort because of Lily. On the contrary, I thought his actions which harmed Lily (handing over the Prophecy) was what horrified him and made him deeply ashamed and contenptuous of himself and made him turn. Snape's actions were what bothered Snape IMO, not Voldemort's actions.

My issue is that most everything he did he did because he was manipulated by Dumbledore-- he himself didn't step up and offer to protect Lily's son, but was rather forced into doing so because Dumbledore, the man with the power, ordered him to-- he merely followed Dumbledore's orders and allowed Dumbledore to use him, to the very end of his life, IMO, because Dumbledore set him up to die. He did what he was ordered (bringing Harry the sword, telling him he needed to die, etc), but when left to his own devices, he treated Harry horribly, IMO, and his heart was never into keeping Harry alive, just getting revenge for Lily's death.

I really don't think Snape could do what Dumbeldore did not wish him to. Harry after Dumbeldore's death keeps the secret of the horcruxes to himself; not even to the Weasleys and Remus, Tonks, McGonagall and Moody does he say a word; would you say harry does not trust them or would they say Harry was being a git?

The moment Harry says Dumbeldore did not want anyone to know all of them keep quiet and respect that. Why do think Snape would be any different?

In fact I think Snape should have been different. He was killing for Dumbedlore's precious Order and was also going to die so that Harry may live. I really think Snape should have known a lot more. But he too accepted when Dumbeldore refused to tell him what Harry was doing in the special lessons and also at other times IMO.

Actually, it was better for him to stay in the school because Voldemort wanted to kill him and believed that Snape had left him-- he was endangered because of Voldemort's return, so it behooved him to stay under Dumbledore's protection.

Not really. Snape went that night itself and faced Voldemort, a good few hours late, knowing that Voldemort may very well kill him. So staying in the School for protection really does not matter IMO.

Snape didn't turn against Voldemort and his principles specifically, but was forced to turn against him to save Lily, and everything he did for Dumbledore was fueled by his obsessive love for Lily, and never a true opposition to what Voldemort stood for.
I agree that his original epiphany was when Lily was targeted. However by the end I think that he had changed considerably. There were no witnesses in the office when Phineas Nigellus used the term "Mudblood" - nobody to act in front of, but Snape still objected to him using the term. This IMO shows how Severus has changed, from someone prepared to use a racial slur on his best friend, to someone who finds the term offensive.

I must admit that this is what I like about Snape's story arc. He didn't just suddenly become a good guy overnight. His change was one step at a time, and by the end I think he is ascommitted to the cause as any other Order member.

My issue is that most everything he did he did because he was manipulated by Dumbledore-- he himself didn't step up and offer to protect Lily's son, but was rather forced into doing so because Dumbledore, the man with the power, ordered him to-- he merely followed Dumbledore's orders and allowed Dumbledore to use him, to the very end of his life, IMO, because Dumbledore set him up to die. He did what he was ordered (bringing Harry the sword, telling him he needed to die, etc), but when left to his own devices, he treated Harry horribly, IMO, and his heart was never into keeping Harry alive, just getting revenge for Lily's death.
I don't think that Snape was "forced" into anything. I certainly don't see how Dumbledore could have forced Snape to do anything from the grave, but Snape continued to follow Dumbledore's plan of his own volition after Dumbledore's death. Nobody was forcing him to do anything at that point. Snape continued because he trusted that Dumbledore's plan would work and Voldemort would be defeated.

Like most brilliant tacticians Dumbledore was a little manipulative. As Winston Churchill said "In war you don't have to be nice, you just have to be right." And Dumbledore knew his plan would work, but also knew that few people would agree to it. I see this as a terrible burden that Dumbledore had to bear. He was blessed and cursed with a truly amazing intellect, but that brought with it responsibilities. He had to prepare Harry, and everyone else for that matter. He alone had all the information available to him to make the decisions. I don't think he enjoyed it at all. In this sense I think that Snape was a comfort tto him, because I think Snape understood the weight of responsibility that Dumbledore had - that he could not care about individuals in order to save the wizarding world - and understood that Dumbledore had to make very, very tough decisions. IMO that was why Snape ultimately stuck to the plan. Because he knew that Dumbledore had the goods.

Imo, Snape would be exhibiting irrational behavior if he felt that way, so I wouldn't find it understandable. But Snape could actually control his feelings associated with those who had worked with him to cause Lily's death (living with Peter, her betrayer, and working with Voldemort, her killer, until the day he died), it was only James he could not control his feelings about. I agree that Snape behaved in an irrational manner when it came to his emotions regarding James, but it is not really understandable to me. Snape was purportedly intelligent, but his ability to be objective when it came to James was pretty much nonexistent, imo. :lol:

I second that. It seems that whenever Lily mentioned anything about James, he (Snape) just flies off the handle (for lack of a better term). Anything else that she said pretty much went in one ear and out the other whenever James is part of the conversation.

This is very interesting. What do you base it upon, because I got the impression of Snape as truly horrorstruck when he came to Dumbeldore after Lily died.
Of course he was horror-struck, and he was grief-stricken, as well, because Voldemort was supposed to spare Lily, and Dumbledore was supposed to "keep her safe," and Lily died anyway-- I believe Snape was convinced he had done enough to save her, but she ended up dying despite his efforts-- that must have been a huge shock to him.

And Harry's recognition of Snape not in the epilogue, but during the Final Battle with Voldemort where he tells the world Snape was Dumbledore's man, I thought was a comparison to himself, Harry I mean.
I thought he was doing so to bring down Voldemort's ego, and to inform him that he wasn't the Master of the Elder Wand after all, because Snape had been ordered to kill Dumbledore, and had been working against Voldemort all along.

Harry called himself Dumbeldore's man and he called Snape the same and to Voldemort at that. That's canon. For harry to say that, I would presume Snape had truly turned, for whatever purpose or whomsoever sake it may be.
The difference is that Harry didn't need to be manipulated into helping, IMO (He chose to fight Voldemort, and Dumbledore gave him the information he needed, while Snape was ordered to protect Harry), nor did he choose to make cruel choices when Dumbledore wasn't there to guide him, unlike Snape, who bullied Harry and treated him with contempt even though he was supposed to protect him.

On the contrary, I thought his actions which harmed Lily (handing over the Prophecy) was what horrified him and made him deeply ashamed and contenptuous of himself and made him turn.
He was ashamed that he caused Lily to die-- if Voldemort had spared her, he would not have been ashamed that his actions caused James and Harry to die, because he was never ashamed for his role in James Potter's death-- he mocks James with a "terrible twisted grin" on his face.

I really don't think Snape could do what Dumbeldore did not wish him to.
I never said that he should have opposed Dumbledore, merely that I would have liked him to take his own stand against Voldemort rather than allowing Dumbledore merely to use him, and, IMO, Dumbledore did use him, from demanding he give him his service in exchange for protecting the Potters (Even though this was unnecessary-- the Potters were already in hiding because Dumbledore heard the Prophecy and knew they had a July baby because he was close to them), to demanding he protect Harry when Snape came to him after Lily's death/Voldemort's downfall, to the death he set up for Snape; where do we see an active desire on Snape's part to take a true stand against Voldemort, who he only ever opposed because of Lily's death?

In fact I think Snape should have been different. He was killing for Dumbedlore's precious Order
:huh: The only person he killed during his time with the Order was Dumbledore, and he had to do so to preserve his own life, because he took the Vow with Narcissa and Bella.

and was also going to die so that Harry may live.
He never intended to die (I don't believe he would have sacrificed himself for Harry, actually), and his death itself did nothing to ensure that Harry would live (Anyone could have given Harry the information about his horcrux bit), nor was it a conscious sacrifice on Harry's behalf. Snape hated Harry.

Not really. Snape went that night itself and faced Voldemort, a good few hours late, knowing that Voldemort may very well kill him. So staying in the School for protection really does not matter IMO.
:huh: That night? Snape spoke with Dumbledore at the Yule Ball, on Christmas, and didn't go to the graveyard until the end of the year, at which point he was in danger for a moment before he was gave Voldemort his story.

There were no witnesses in the office when Phineas Nigellus used the term "Mudblood" - nobody to act in front of, but Snape still objected to him using the term.
I saw that situation as a parallel to the time Dumbledore tells him that Harry has Lily's eyes, and he couldn't bear to hear it, and screamed "Don't" at Dumbledore because he couldn't bear to be reminded of Lily; he found the term offensive because it reminded him of the loss of Lily-- I certainly don't think he was angry that Hermione had been insulted.

I don't think that Snape was "forced" into anything.
I saw Dumbledore's actions after Lily's death, as Snape was grieving, as very manipulative-- he told Snape that if he "truly loved Lily Evans," he would help Dumbledore protect her son, because Dumbledore needed a spy, and Snape needed protection (Or a way out of Azkaban), so he conceded, IMO, and he continued to allow Dumbledore to order him around for the rest of his life.

He was not forced into working against Voldemort, IMO (He betrayed Voldemort of his own volition when he came to Dumbledore on the hill); he was forced into protecting Harry, and the effort to do so was never from his heart, or out of a pure desire to protect Harry-- he treated Harry horribly when Dumbledore wasn't around.

I certainly don't see how Dumbledore could have forced Snape to do anything from the grave
Dumbledore's portrait gave him orders.

Snape continued because he trusted that Dumbledore's plan would work and Voldemort would be defeated.
Exactly. :agree: Snape followed Dumbledore's orders to bring down Voldemort, because Voldemort killed Lily-- that's my entire point, but Snape never cared about working against Voldemort because Voldemort was running a terrorizing and murderous regime, merely because Voldemort had killed Lily, and nothing more, IMO.

I certainly don't think he was angry that Hermione had been insulted. Why not?

I saw Dumbledore's actions after Lily's death, as Snape was grieving, as very manipulative-- he told Snape that if he "truly loved Lily Evans," he would help Dumbledore protect her son, because Dumbledore needed a spy, and Snape needed protection (Or a way out of Azkaban), so he conceded, IMO, and he continued to allow Dumbledore to order him around for the rest of his life.
But Dumbledore explained that Harry would have to die - something that Snape was not too happy about (Of course Dumbledore knew that Harry wouldn't die, but he needed Harry and therefore Snape to beleive that he would die) Therefore in continuing with Dumbledore's plan after Dumbledore's death he is actually going against his initial agreement because from Snape's POV what he did sent Harry to his death rather than kept him alive.
If Snape wanted to remain true to that original promise he would not have completed Dumbledore's plan, but as it is he stuck to it, not out of any promise made many years earlier but because he believed it was the right thing to do and would bring down Voldemort.

Dumbledore's portrait gave him orders.
So what would the portrait have done if Snape had refused to obey these "orders" ? (I don't actually think they are orders - they are certainly not orders in the sense that Voldemort "orders" people to do things.)

Snape followed Dumbledore's orders to bring down Voldemort, because Voldemort killed Lily-- that's my entire point, but Snape never cared about working against Voldemort because Voldemort was running a terrorizing and murderous regime, merely because Voldemort had killed Lily, and nothing more, IMO.
I disagree. Snape's personal pain had taught him everyday how evil Voldemort was. He wasn't just out for revenge, he bore all the hall marks of a man burdened with huge guilt and unable to forgive himself. He blamed himself as much as if not more than Voldemort.

ETA: I found this interesting:
Lack of self forgiveness can result in:

A loss of love for yourself.

Indifference toward yourself and your needs.

An emotional vacuum in which little or no emotions are shown or shared.

Chronic attacks or angry outbursts against self.

Disrespectful treatment of self.

Self-destructive behaviors.

Self-pitying.

Chronic recalling and reminding of past failures, mistakes, errors, and offenses.

Suspicions about others' motives, behaviors, attitudes, and beliefs when they are accepting of you.

Chronic depression.

Chronic hostility, sarcasm, and cynicism.

Self name calling, belittling, and self demeaning behaviors.

Unwillingness to change and/or unwillingness to seek the help necessary to change.

Resistance to doing what is necessary to heal within and recover

So what would the portrait have done if Snape had refused to obey these "orders" ? (I don't actually think they are orders - they are certainly not orders in the sense that Voldemort "orders" people to do things.)

:tu:I always saw Snape & DD's portrait as co-conspirators