Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Oh, and in that particular statement, she also said that she had a woman as early as PoA come to her and said she believed Snape had loved Lily, which made Jo think, "What did I give away?!" - so, unless she was lying, she definitely did have the plot in mind at latest before starting PoA.

And - to be completely honest - I do not believe that Jo had any intention of the whole Snape/Lily friendship when she wrote the first book. At that point, I think Snape's character did not have any major purpose in the series as a whole beyond his role as a red herring in the first book and a foil for Harry because he hated Harry. I see the subplot for Snape as something that went through multiple changes as the series progressed. Which is the reason - in my opinion - there are so many major contradictions and plot holes throughout - particularly with the whole Snape/Lily thing. In regards to actual textual clues - perhaps valid literary clues would be a better term - that revelation comes completely out of nowhere. There is nothing in the first six books that is consistent with that revelation, IMO. Snape throwing out a racial slur when she tried to help him doesn't cut it for me as a literary clue that they were friends or that he had this hugely obsessive love for her. It seems most likely to me that the whole Snape/Lily thing was something Jo decided on at some point between HBP and DH - or while she was writing DH. And the result was a lot of major contradictions that cause huge plot holes. Again - my opinion - I'm trying to keep my tone neutral here.
It's funny that some people regard the Snape/Lily plot as coming from nowhere, whereas others regard it as so obvious as to have made the whole thing trite.
I agree there are plot holes - but I think that was always going to be the case with a series like this where there is the big "twist" at the end. PoA had plot holes you could drive a truck through because of the need to keep things from the reader until the end.
However I believe that Jo has recently come out and said that the Snape and Dumbledore story arcs were always there because they are pretty pivotal to the story.

I believe that is on topic since that was supposed to be a clue regarding Snape and Lily - right?More of a poetic reference than a clue; I wasn't sure how on-topic it would be regarded by the mods. :scared:

Oh, and in that particular statement, she also said that she had a woman as early as PoA come to her and said she believed Snape had loved Lily, which made Jo think, "What did I give away?!" - so, unless she was lying, she definitely did have the plot in mind at latest before starting PoA.It could have been since PoA, but I think that Snape was just always intended to be good and perhaps in the double agent role. But there was no mention of the Marauder generation at all except for that oblique reference to Sirius in SS/PS. And that seemed to be more like the way she would name an obscure character, and then later on reuse the character in a more central way later on like Mrs. Figg or Mundungus Fletcher.

I don't think she had all the framework in place right away.

I agree.

It's funny that some people regard the Snape/Lily plot as coming from nowhere, whereas others regard it as so obvious as to have made the whole thing trite.
I agree there are plot holes - but I think that was always going to be the case with a series like this where there is the big "twist" at the end. PoA had plot holes you could drive a truck through because of the need to keep things from the reader until the end.
However I believe that Jo has recently come out and said that the Snape and Dumbledore story arcs were always there because they are pretty pivotal to the story.

It's rather funny - I did some research on that just before DH because I was curious where that particular theory came from because I didn't - and still do not - see any textual clues for it in the first six books. And Jo herself had said it was a "horrible idea". I finally traced it back to a comment one person posted on another forum questioning why Snape would be jealous of James because of Quidditch when Snape didn't like Quidditch. I'm guessing they missed all the textual references to how badly Snape wanted Slytherin to win at Quidditch. :lol: But that was where it started and it grew from that rather than actual evidence from the books - according to what I found out anyway.

I am aware of Jo's recent comments about Snape and Dumbledore. And, while I can see that for Dumbledore because there are textual clues in the books towards that plotline, I just don't see the same for Snape. Not in the first three books at all and only a vague outline for GOF - and OOTP just flip flops throughout. What seems most likely to me is that Jo simply did not know what to do with Snape and it does appear that she changed her mind several times because there are so many textual clues that lead to other conclusions. If she had that planned out from the beginning, I would have to say that is the worst writing she has ever done - in regards to that particular subplot - because it is so full of contradictions and plot holes that could easily have been avoided.

Plot holes are never a good thing in writing and, even when you're trying to maintain mystery, they can be avoided. And Jo easily maintained the mystery with other subplots without creating plot holes. The numerous plot holes with the Snape/Lily arc are most likely due to that not being added in until later in the series, IMO.

More of a poetic reference than a clue; I wasn't sure how on-topic it would be regarded by the mods. :scared:

Well, I'm doing my best to keep it in the context of Snape and Lily. Hopefully that counts for something. :)

[QUOTE=CathyWeasley;4990758]And Now for something completely different:

Wormwood was also used to make the highly dangerous drink Absinthe

And they do say absinthe makes the heart grows fonder.:lol:

Sorry couldn't resist that...

It's rather funny - I did some research on that just before DH because I was curious where that particular theory came from because I didn't - and still do not - see any textual clues for it in the first six books. And Jo herself had said it was a "horrible idea". I finally traced it back to a comment one person posted on another forum questioning why Snape would be jealous of James because of Quidditch when Snape didn't like Quidditch. I'm guessing they missed all the textual references to how badly Snape wanted Slytherin to win at Quidditch. :lol: But that was where it started and it grew from that rather than actual evidence from the books - according to what I found out anyway.

Are completely sure this is the very comment where the whole theory started? I think many readers coming up with that idea separately is more likely. The theory had huge support. It's rather unlikely that all those people believed it based solely on unexplained jealousy. There are actually many readers who had much more subtstantial reasons to believe it. My sister hasn't visited a forum in her life, she had nothing but the books at her disposal, yet she picked up on it some time into HBP.

The numerous plot holes with the Snape/Lily arc are most likely due to that not being added in until later in the series, IMO.

If that's tru, it would mean Jo was lying when she said she thought "What did I give away?" when a woman told her of her idea that Snape had loved Lily, and this was after PoA, by Jo's own account. So she must have had the idea at latest by the beginning of PoA.

And I would like to say that while you may not have seen clues to it, and regard it as bad writing, the big popularity of the Snape loved Lily theory pre-DH is, in my opinion, a more objective evidence as to whether there were clues to it and whether it was well written. If that many people were able to see it and find it plausible, it can't have been that big of a plothole and bad writing as you seem to think. Just my view on the matter. :)

It could have been since PoA, but I think that Snape was just always intended to be good and perhaps in the double agent role. But there was no mention of the Marauder generation at all except for that oblique reference to Sirius in SS/PS. And that seemed to be more like the way she would name an obscure character, and then later on reuse the character in a more central way later on like Mrs. Figg or Mundungus Fletcher.

But why would she be concerned about giving anything away about Snape/Lily in PoA if she hadn't even thought of it at that time?

I also remember reading that she had told Alan Rickman about Snape's love for Lily a long time back, so that he could act with that in mind. She said that he was the only one who knew about the fact that Snape loved Lily.

The explosive Harry/Snape interaction which begins from the very first book, also suggests that there is a deeper meaning behind it, all the more now that we have the whole back story about Snape IMO.

And - to be completely honest - I do not believe that Jo had any intention of the whole Snape/Lily friendship when she wrote the first book. At that point, I think Snape's character did not have any major purpose in the series as a whole beyond his role as a red herring in the first book and a foil for Harry because he hated Harry.

Jo has addressed this point in a Q&A she gave at the James Joyce Awards in Dublin.

Snape, on the other hand, I had to drop clues all the way through because as you know in the seventh book when you have the revelation scene where everything shifts and you realize why Snape was... what Snape's motivation was. I had to plot that through the books because at the point where you see what was really going on, it would have been an absolute cheat on the reader at that point just to show a bunch of stuff you've never seen before, you know... "Oh by the way, in the background this was happening." So I did know. It was a complicated plotting process but by the time Philosopher's Stone was finished, I definitely knew all the big things about Snape and Dumbledore because in many ways they're the two most important characters in the seventh book... Well, other than the trio, Harry, Ron and Hermione.

Q: You said that you always had all the backstories and everything plotted, I was just wondering what was your favourite backstory or storyline that you couldn't fit in?

Well I haven't always had all of them planned. You know, some of the less crucial ones did evolve. But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you – the series is built around those two

So, she knew all about Snape all along, and dropped hints. One of the things she knew about him, was his motivation. She built the story around him and Albus, so he (and his relationship to Lily) were always a part of it.

Full text here:
http://www.gazette-du-sorcier.com/J-K-Rowling-recoit-le-Prix-James,1037#english

Yoana, you do remember correctly, the comment to which you refer was made in this same appearance.

You hear a lot of theories about books, while they were being written, even after you'd finished the last book. I was just wondering what was your favourite rumour, did you hear something were you went like "wow".
... But then you have people, I had people as early as Prisoner of Azkaban, the third book. I remember a woman saying to me: "I think Snape loves Lily". I was "Oh my God what the he*l did I give away?". But so people, people got stuff very unnervingly right. Often. Yeah.

At any rate, the author in discussing her writing has stated that Snape's storyline, including his motivation (Lily) has been a part of her project from the beginning. It therefore is certainly not a late addition inspired by fan comments. As such, I think it is perfectly legitimate to examine all of the books for clues, since the author explicitly states she put them there. The infamous opening speech of the first Potions class may or may not be such a clue (I think it is) but to deny there were any such clues in the early books, is to call the author a liar. She dropped clues "all the way through".

And they do say absinthe makes the heart grows fonder.:lol:

Sorry couldn't resist that...

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I can accept that you didn't see the clues Meesha and that you don't get the whole Snape and Lily thing, but a lot of people did. One of the reasons why I eventually joined the forums (I had been lurking as a guest for a very long time) was because of the "Snape loves Lily" theory. I had an inkling of this after PoA because Snape's behaviour in the shack didn't make sense to me unless there was another reason for him being so volatile, and the only reason I could think of that Snape (who hated James) could hate the betrayer so much would because of Lily. For me the "Don't talk about things you don't understand" line to Hermione was a clincher. After GoF and OotP I was even more sure, but I have to say my boat was considerably rocked by HBP, and for four whole days I thought I had been completely wrong about Snape and his feelings for Lily.
I am more inclined to think that the story line with Snape killing Dumbledore was a last minute thing put in to throw astute readers off the scent.


At any rate, the author in discussing her writing has stated that Snape's storyline, including his motivation (Lily) has been a part of her project from the beginning. It therefore is certainly not a late addition inspired by fan comments. As such, I think it is perfectly legitimate to examine all of the books for clues, since the author explicitly states she put them there.
Exactly!

I know some readers will never "get" it, but then there are some things in other books that I just don't get.

But you have to take into account exactly what JKR is talking about. The Harry Potter plot that involves Snape is the part about him overhearing the prophecy and carrying it to Voldemort. Without that, Harry's parents wouldn't have died and he wouldn't have temporarily destroyed the dark lord and become the boy who lived. Dumbledore took over from there so the story was built around his efforts from that point. However, JKR left out the real crux of the whole thing: Voldemort! :lol: But I assume she had his initial part worked out as well as the murderer of the Potters and the basis of "evil" in the tale.

The whys and hows are all subplot material that is not germane to the plot, although important to Snape's side story and James & Lily's background side story. In other words, she could have changed all of the hows and whys and the main plot would still have functioned. :)

IMO a very close shave with death can have quite a big impact on someone – I have to say, & or course it’s only my opinion, that its probably fairly reasonable to be at least a little bit cross when someone puts your life in serious danger.

But Remus never intentionally put Snape's life in danger. In fact, Snape had an idea of what he'd see if he'd go down the tunnel. Lily said she already heard of his "theories," indicating that Snape had voiced his suspicion of Remus being a werewolf before. Snape went down the tunnel aware that he may meet a fully grown werewolf.

The question is who. There are a few questions that we could ask that would help us make an educated guess – after all that’s the best we can do; guess.

It had to be someone who had the opportunity to know what was happening out of bounds after curfew.
It seems very likly that that person had to be someone who had access to Lily (i.e. someone who shared a class, club or common room with her)
It would be likely to be someone who would benefit from telling the story


Those are all possible, except that could be applied to any situation in the series. How did everyone find out what happened when Harry met Quirrel? There were only three (okay, maybe four if you count Voldemort) people that were there yet the whole school found out. I interpreted that it was the same for the Werewolf Incident; after all, Lily did say that she "heard" about what happened.

I think that point one narrows down the suspects to a very small number; 2 Sirius Black & James Potter. IMO points 2 & 3 make it seem more likely that it James.

OK so even if you don’t agree with the theory that it was James that told Lily, and you are free to do so. It still needs one of the very few people who knew about it to have said something to someone – which was either directly disobeying Dumbledore or breaking a promise they had made to him.

Why James? Why not Sirius or Remus? How is James a more likely suspect? Actually, why is James a suspect in the first place? :huh:

I’m not trying to say that any of the Marauders are guiltier than Snape for the story getting out – I just feel that if anyone is going to criticise one side for talking about it then it should also be considered that the other party was as culpable in that respect – IMO that’s just fair play.

Sirius was definitely not shown in a great light for telling Snape about the prank, but I didn't get into that because this is a thread for Snape and Lily. ;)

As for the reason Snape was both cross &, I suspect, very concerned. He had just found out that a boy he didn’t like was actually very dangerous, not just ‘not nice’ (I am trying to put Snapes view here – I am not giving my opinion Sirius or any of the Marauders).
The thing that made this even worse was, IMO, that the girl he loved, shared both classes & a common room with this very dangerous person. I would not be surprised if he wanted to try & do something to make her safe.

I'm not sure he was mainly concerned for her when he was telling her about Remus. It seemed like Snape was using the Marauders to distract Lily from the friends Snape was making.

The first being that anyone would be so disconcerted by the idea that a child of 9 or 10 might like hearing scary or macabre stories, or that this idea reflects negatively on them in later life in any way. When I was a kid I loved to watch scary stuff - I watched Dr Who from behind the sofa, because it was scary & fun. I like to think I’ve turned into an ok adult, and I know that my friends who had similar tastes have all turned into perfectly decent human beings too. I don’t see why saying Lily like to hear macabre stories when she was a child creates any negative impressions of her.

It's not bad to be interested in hearing scary stories. Most of the people who are into those kind of stories don't necessarily like gore and the stuff that the people do in the novels/movies/whatever, but enjoy the thrill of reading/watching the scary stuff, from my experience. So there is a bit of a distinction.

The other thing I find very strange is the idea that if a friendhip, or love, end that means that it wasn’t actually a good relationship at any point. I was head over heals in love with all my ex’s - splitting up with them didn’t rewrite that. I’ve had long friendships that have ended, again the ending of the friend ship does not negate years of love and kindness. Things change; people grow up and when that happens they sometimes grow apart. It’s sad but it doesn’t devalue any of the past.

I feel that Snape and Lily never had a good friendship because of the memories shown. Almost every scene we are given shows their friendship in a negative light, so I find that difficult to think that they had a wonderful friendship. :shrug:

I see nothing undue in such an interest. That she is intrested, is there in black and white. She asks to hear the story again.

She says that she wants to know more about them because of her fear that they'll come after if she uses magic outside of school. Harry asks questions when he talks to Lupin in PoA, and none of that meant he held any interest for learning about dementors. I really don't understand how her interest is "there in black and white," but if you can clarify, it'd be appreciated.

I don't know if I would say greatly. I felt it was clear that Snape was already prejudiced before he even got his letter. I think it is more likely that he was influenced more by his mother or his mother's family because they were pure-bloods.

I was exaggerating a bit when I wrote that. :p I do feel that it was clear that Snape was prejudiced before he got into Hogwarts, but it's very likely that being sorted into Slytherin and befriending the ones that supported pureblood supremacy further influenced him.

I wouldn't say either of them were dependent on the friendship. Snape had friends apart from Lily as well. I don't think that really mattered all that much. It was Snape's behavior that was the issue.

When I said depended, I meant that Snape was more interested in the friendship because of his love for Lily. Lily loved him in a platonic sense, but she wasn't as dependent on Snape because she had many other friends and didn't have as much difficulty when she ended the friendship as Snape had.

Honestly, with as much effort as Lily put in to trying to talk to Snape, I really don't see what else she could have done. Snape simply refused to listen to her or even try to understand why she was concerned. Lily went far above and beyond what was necessary, IMO.

:agree: That's how I felt as well. I don't really see how much more she could have done to save the friendship. She already tried to convince Snape before, but he ignored her and tried to distract her in that scene showed in the book. It was clear that despite what Lily was attempting to do, it was not working, and she had only one option left: the end the friendship.

its just too sad that he made mistakes that broke them apart because if he hadn't she probably would have married him because she loved him and they were like a perfect couple imo because I like "best friend" couples.

Lily only loved Snape as a friend, according to JKR.

I think JKR gave off a "what should have been" vibe with Snape and Lily because they were best friends and she wrote their story so beautful and tragic and it was like it should have been Snape and Lily if he had not made the mistake with becoming a death eater

According to JKR, Lily might have fallen for Snape had he not been attracted to loathsome people and acts. It was a possibility, but I never got the impression that JKR was trying to say "what should have been" when she wrote about Snape and Lily's friendship.

because Lilly's relationship with James was really mediocre and we don't really know much about it except that he finally charmed her into going out with him and she wouldn't have gone with him probably if her friend Snape hadn't hurt her

Snape, IMO, had nothing to do with her decision to date James. And it is stated in canon that Lily dated James because he changed. It's also very obviously hinted at that Lily had feelings for James in SWM (plus JKR implied that she did).

Someone said on another site that Snape and Evans are mirror names except for the P for Potter and the V for Voldemort, the people who tore them away from one another

I don't really agree with the symbolism you mentioned (and I won't get into it since everyone has the right to interpret things in the HP series as he or she wishes to), but I don't agree with the bolded. Voldemort and Snape didn't steal Lily or Snape. Snape made the concious choice to join Voldemort. Lily made the concious choice to marry James (someone that is the love of her life, proven by the form her patronus makes). Neither of them were blindly taken away from each other. Snape was the reason the friendship ended and James had nothing to do with it.

Demeaning her husband well, I think Lily would understand, because Snape and James were not exactly friendly with each other and blame could not be placed only on Snape; I think Lily would know this because she would have known about the hexing battles that Snape had with the Marauders, until 5th year when she stopped being Snape's friend IMO.

Given the situation in Hogwarts, I'm sure Lily would have understood then, but I'm not sure she would understand when her husband was dead. Snape insulted James even though he was dead and wasn't there to defend himself and he did it in front of Harry, an orphan. Even if Lily understood why Snape behaved that way, I do think that she would look at it negatively.

Even the tolerance that the Order members and Snape had with each other, James did not have with Snape IMO. Sirius showed his dislike of Snape openly IMO(OOTP Occlumency lessons), and I believe Snape returned it with interest. James too, I think was not very fond of Snape and I don't think Lily would expect Snape to think of James affectionately,when she knew James would also dislike Snape as much as Snape disliked James IMO.

IMO, it's a bit unfair to assume that James would have been rude to Snape for the rest of his life. He died when he was twenty one and we don't know how he would have matured or developed had he lived longer.

I don't have words from canon for this but I think Lily had no other close friends apart from Snape. Snape and LIly were like Sirius and James IMO. I think Lily and Snape were happy with each other until Lily broke off on the day of the SWM.

I disagree; I don't think Snape and Lily were ever like James and Sirius. James and Sirius never (as far as canon indicates) had arguments because one was doing something that went against several morals of his. I always felt that James and Sirius were much closer.

The thing that was keeping Romeo and Juliet was their families (I think - correct me if I'm wrong - it's been awhile :p) and the thing that was keeping Snape and Lily apart was actually their own polar personalities and Snape's unwillingness to listen, as well as his obsession with the dark arts. It wasn't due to outside forces, rather they choices they themselves made (not to say outside forces played no part in it, but it's their choices and nothing else that would have made this relationship turn into romantic love imo).

You're very right, that's exactly what Romeo and Juliet had. :agree: I don't see any strong similarities between Snape and Lily and Romeo and Juliet. Romeo and Juliet fell in love at first sight, but their main problem with their relationship was that their families hated each other. That was not hte case with Snape and Lily. The biggest problem with Snape and Lily's friendship is that Snape was attracted to the Dark Arts/Voldemort and had friends that were "evil."

I don't see a strong comparison with the themes of Romeo and Juliet. They both have tragedies, but a lot of other famous romance stories do as well. IMO, Heathcliff and Catherine would be a stronger example.

I know some readers will never "get" it.I've seen that kind of assertion before. I could be wrong here, but it seems to suggest that some readers are more in tune than others. And that the ones that aren't in tune, just don't see Snape as a admirable hero. I did, however, guess that he loved Lily since those clues were there, but only slightly in OotP and more definitely in HBP.

I got it. I was able to see he was really good despite the misdirection otherwise. But what I didn't get, and never will, is the image of Snape as a romantic hero. And that's because he was so consistently unpleasant and downright nasty to children, especially. I rather like anti-heroes, but they usually have hearts-of-gold (or an underlying decency) beneath their crusty non-conformist outsider exteriors. But that is typically spelled out in the text somewhere. The readers aren't left to substitute (and invent) their own reality where the supposed hero is completely opposite from what is consistently presented in the text.

The part of Snape's story that had to be seeded from the beginning was his role as double agent. Just look at what the misdirection was aimed at. He was consistently shown as a nasty (perhaps evil) character, so the big surprise would be that he was good after all. Also his role in the prophecy was central to the story. Finding out that he was the betrayer only made him look more evil, so the big surprise would be that he was good. The same was true when he killed Dumbledore. All of this was aimed to make his loyalty even more questionable, as was his role in betraying the Seven Potters plot.

Actually, his relationship with Lily was somewhat irrelevant. Yes, it was the reason Voldemort gave Lily a chance to live, but it wasn't needed to make that piece work. Voldemort could have wanted Lily for some special knowledge or skill that she had. Loving Lily did explain his motivation and the antipathy with James, but that wasn't needed to make things work. In some ways, having him love Lily was merely a convenient plot device.

Let's remember to keep things friendly.

Are completely sure this is the very comment where the whole theory started? I think many readers coming up with that idea separately is more likely. The theory had huge support. It's rather unlikely that all those people believed it based solely on unexplained jealousy. There are actually many readers who had much more subtstantial reasons to believe it. My sister hasn't visited a forum in her life, she had nothing but the books at her disposal, yet she picked up on it some time into HBP.

I'm about 98% positive from what I found in my research. It grew from that one comment. Which is actually how a lot of theories got started. The Sibling Theory had a similar beginning with a singular comment about how there must have been a reason Hermione wasn't attracted to Harry because the poster did not believe that a boy and a girl could be "just friends".

Regardless, I can only go by what I see in the text and what Jo has told us. And it just doesn't add up. The first six books simply do not support the whole Snape/Lily conclusion we were given, IMO. The clues given in the first six books point to multiple other conclusions that vary depending on which book you are reading. I've always seen these problems within Snape's plot line - I just hoped DH would address those issues and explain them.

Jo may have wanted Snape to be important from the beginning, but it does not appear that she had any clear idea of what she was going to do with him until GOF - and even that comes across as more of a vague outline with him being a spy. And - as I said before - if she did plan out the Snape/Lily friendship from the first book, then that would have to be the most poorly written subplot I have every seen because there are so many contradictions that cause huge plot holes. Since Jo wrote pretty much all the other subplots really well, it seems more likely to me that she simply was not sure what to do with Snape early on. Of course, it is possible that she simply made mistakes as well - and that's fine too - everyone is entitled to mistakes. I can discuss the mistakes and plot holes and still respect Jo as a writer because the series was very good overall.

If that's tru, it would mean Jo was lying when she said she thought "What did I give away?" when a woman told her of her idea that Snape had loved Lily, and this was after PoA, by Jo's own account. So she must have had the idea at latest by the beginning of PoA.

I'm not Jo. I can't answer that. All I can say is that the text we are shown simply does not support that conclusion, IMO. It is too contradictory and causes too many plot holes - particularly with POA.

And I would like to say that while you may not have seen clues to it, and regard it as bad writing, the big popularity of the Snape loved Lily theory pre-DH is, in my opinion, a more objective evidence as to whether there were clues to it and whether it was well written. If that many people were able to see it and find it plausible, it can't have been that big of a plothole and bad writing as you seem to think. Just my view on the matter. :)

The Sibling Theory was very popular as well. As was the Trap theory, the Dumbledore impersonated Snape theory, Harry and Hermione falling in love - and so on and so forth. All of the people supporting those theories felt they had evidence as well. But they were all basically the same thing - reverse engineered from a desired conclusion rather than developed from actual evidence in the books. You can find "clues" for anything if you want to bad enough. I participated in a test - inspired by a project I had worked on for my literature class in college - with someone else and we were able to "prove" that Harry and Ron were biological brothers - a conclusion that we knew from the start was completely wrong. But we were able to find text to support it simply because we started with a conclusion and worked backwards. It was a good example of what not to do when analysing literature - always work forwards - never backwards. You might get lucky occasionally, but in general it just doesn't work for making an accurate analysis. That's how I was always taught.

On the flip side of that, there were people who made good guesses - like Trelawney's first prophecy being about Harry and Voldemort. There was only one clue given for that - and it was only Dumbledore mentioning that she had made another genuine prophecy with no details. A good guess from one fan - or a bunch of fans - doesn't mean it was written well and it doesn't remove the numerous contradictions and huge plot holes.

No offense intended to anyone - you all guessed right and that's great. I'm happy for you - really. But I'm looking at the quality of the writing - not the popularity of the theory or the accuracy of people guessing the conclusion. We were all guessing as to what would happen - some of us were right and some of us were wrong. That's no big deal. However, if it is not written well, I'm not going to like it regardless of how many other people do.

For example - I was also wrong about Harry being a Horcrux. I didn't believe Jo would do that because I could not think of a way for Harry to survive that. But I really enjoyed how that played out because it was very well written and fit with the previous books perfectly without any contradictions or plot holes. For me, it's not a matter of being right or wrong - it's a matter of how well it was written and whether or not it was consistent throughout the series.

But you have to take into account exactly what JKR is talking about. The Harry Potter plot that involves Snape is the part about him overhearing the prophecy and carrying it to Voldemort. Without that, Harry's parents wouldn't have died and he wouldn't have temporarily destroyed the dark lord and become the boy who lived. Dumbledore took over from there so the story was built around his efforts from that point. However, JKR left out the real crux of the whole thing: Voldemort! :lol: But I assume she had his initial part worked out as well as the murderer of the Potters and the basis of "evil" in the tale.

The whys and hows are all subplot material that is not germane to the plot, although important to Snape's side story and James & Lily's background side story. In other words, she could have changed all of the hows and whys and the main plot would still have functioned. :)

Exactly. :agree: By the time POA rolled around, the series was becoming extremely popular and Snape was one of the favorite characters. That certainly had an effect on the story overall, IMO. I call that the "Spike" syndrome - Spike was a popular character on BtVS who was eventually switched from a villain to a good guy because he was so popular with fans for anyone who didn't know. I see that same pattern with Snape - the more popular he became with fans, the more importance he was given in the story.

And I am not saying that's a bad thing. That kind of thing actually happens a lot and, sometimes it works out really well. In this case, it simply did not work because there were too many contradictions and plot holes created in the process. It just wasn't done very well. And I'm also not saying that it's not canon or trying to make up different conclusions - I'm simply trying to discuss the contradictions and plot holes that exist within the text regarding this particular subplot.

Actually, his relationship with Lily was somewhat irrelevant. Yes, it was the reason Voldemort gave Lily a chance to live, but it wasn't needed to make that piece work. Voldemort could have wanted Lily for some special knowledge or skill that she had. Loving Lily did explain his motivation and the antipathy with James, but that wasn't needed to make things work. In some ways, having him love Lily was merely a convenient plot device.

Rowling knew why Harry had survived when she wrote the books. It could have been any other conceivable reason in the universe, as you say. And that would have been a different book. In the Harry Potter series, it WAS because Snape loved Lily. Which makes Snape's love for Lily anything but irrelevant to the story Rowling wrote.

I disagree there were no early hints of Snape/Lily. Fans had picked up on it by PoA, and we have discussed the clues in PS/SS (today) and PoA here before. They may not have worked for you. They may still not work for you. But they are there.

meesha1971 - it is one thing to disagree with Rowling's opinions (e. g. Snape is likable because he loved deeply and was very brave), and another to imply she was telling an untruth when she made a simple statement of fact about her writing - that she had worked out Snape's stopryline from the start. I see no reason to impugn her honesty in this way.

They may not have worked for you. They may still not work for you. But they are there.
Please don't decide what does or doesn't work for me. We saw Snape foam at the mouth in PoA, literally having spittle fly from his mouth. If that was a clue, it was a rather comical one. However, if it was a clue, it does point to the idea that he wanted revenge on Voldemort (about Lily), since he specifically mentioned vengeance during his hysterical outburst in the Shrieking Shack.

What will never work for me is the idea of Snape as romantic. He was not an admirable person. He was cruel and abusive to children. Having been an abused child who also ended up in an abusive marriage, I don't find nasty abusive people attractive.

Okay guys. Snape. Lily. CHARACTER ANALYSIS. If you want a thread on JKR and plot consistency you can owl me a draft and we'll consider it. But this ain't the place.

And don't either tell people what they think, what they think you think or what you think they think you think. Do we really need two in threads per page?

Yes, boss. *clicks heels and salutes*

But Remus never intentionally put Snape's life in danger. In fact, Snape had an idea of what he'd see if he'd go down the tunnel. Lily said she already heard of his "theories," indicating that Snape had voiced his suspicion of Remus being a werewolf before. Snape went down the tunnel aware that he may meet a fully grown werewolf.

That's an excellent point actually. And that was something that was indicated in POA as well. Snape was already suspicious of where they were going each month. It does appear that he had been passing that particular theory around for a long time.

However, I am more disturbed by his continuing to try and convince people about his "theory" after he knew it was true and had promised Dumbledore that he wouldn't tell anyone.

Those are all possible, except that could be applied to any situation in the series. How did everyone find out what happened when Harry met Quirrel? There were only three (okay, maybe four if you count Voldemort) people that were there yet the whole school found out. I interpreted that it was the same for the Werewolf Incident; after all, Lily did say that she "heard" about what happened.

Why James? Why not Sirius or Remus? How is James a more likely suspect? Actually, why is James a suspect in the first place? :huh:

Actually, the more likely culprit - or culprits - for secrets like that getting around the school so quickly is the portraits. You know, the ones that can move around and visit other portraits in the castle - and talk to each other and the students. ;)

We see this throughout the series with Harry. In the first book, only Harry and Dumbledore knew that Harry had fought Quirrell in the dungeon. Ron and Hermione both thought they were going to fact Snape and neither of them saw Quirrell. How did that story get around the whole school? Most likely through the portraits. In GOF, the portrait from the room off the Great Hall where the champions were sent rushed out to tell other portraits what had happened in that room - she was telling the Fat Lady by the time Harry got back to Gryffindor tower. In OOTP, Terry Boot reveals that one of the portraits in the headmaster's office told him about Harry killing the basilisk with the sword in second year.

So the portraits would be the most likely source for such gossip. Even so, they had enough respect for Dumbledore's wishes not to reveal the details involved or go around presenting a "theory" that Lupin was a werewolf. All Lily knew was that James had saved Snape's life at that point - she didn't know the details about what had happened.

I'm not sure he was mainly concerned for her when he was telling her about Remus. It seemed like Snape was using the Marauders to distract Lily from the friends Snape was making.

Completely agree. It seems very clear to me that Snape's motivation there was to change the subject and divert Lily's attention away from what he was doing wrong.

I feel that Snape and Lily never had a good friendship because of the memories shown. Almost every scene we are given shows their friendship in a negative light, so I find that difficult to think that they had a wonderful friendship. :shrug:

I agree. From what we are shown, that was a friendship that was on shaky ground from the beginning because they never really had anything in common apart from the fact that they were both magical children. That simply wasn't enough to overcome the numerous differences in their values and beliefs.

As I said before, I don't believe the two of them would have even become friends if there had been other magical children in the area that they had more in common with. They were just too different, IMO.

She says that she wants to know more about them because of her fear that they'll come after if she uses magic outside of school. Harry asks questions when he talks to Lupin in PoA, and none of that meant he held any interest for learning about dementors. I really don't understand how her interest is "there in black and white," but if you can clarify, it'd be appreciated.

Exactly. It wasn't that Lily was interested in dementors so much as she was afraid of what would happen to her if she was sent to Azkaban for using magic while she was underage and not allowed.

I was exaggerating a bit when I wrote that. :p I do feel that it was clear that Snape was prejudiced before he got into Hogwarts, but it's very likely that being sorted into Slytherin and befriending the ones that supported pureblood supremacy further influenced him.

Okay. I gotcha now. :) I agree for the most part. I think his prejudices were pretty well set when he arrived at Hogwarts. I don't think he was influenced in regards to his prejudices - but I think that being around other people who shared those prejudices certainly cemented them further in his mind.

When I said depended, I meant that Snape was more interested in the friendship because of his love for Lily. Lily loved him in a platonic sense, but she wasn't as dependent on Snape because she had many other friends and didn't have as much difficulty when she ended the friendship as Snape had.

I agree that Snape's obsessive love was a factor in that in regards to how Snape was affected. But both of them had other friends that they shared more in common with so - in regards to the friendship - I don't see that as a difficult transition for either of them. Snape was certainly more strongly affected overall because he had hoped it would eventually become more than a friendship though.

:agree: That's how I felt as well. I don't really see how much more she could have done to save the friendship. She already tried to convince Snape before, but he ignored her and tried to distract her in that scene showed in the book. It was clear that despite what Lily was attempting to do, it was not working, and she had only one option left: the end the friendship.

Completely agree. Snape calling her a mudblood was just the final straw in the ongoing conflict and strife between them. Lily had done everything she could and - after that - she simply could not deny the truth anymore. I admire her for having the strength to do that myself.

According to JKR, Lily might have fallen for Snape had he not been attracted to loathsome people and acts. It was a possibility, but I never got the impression that JKR was trying to say "what should have been" when she wrote about Snape and Lily's friendship.

Exactly. And she put conditions on that - if he wasn't so fascinated by the Dark Arts and planning to join Voldemort. In other words, if he was a completely different person, then Lily might have fallen in love with him at some point. However, I had the impression from the way Jo answered that question that it was very unlikely. And it's really a moot point because Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts and planning to join Voldemort. That was just something Lily would never have been able to reconcile herself to from what Jo said.

Snape, IMO, had nothing to do with her decision to date James. And it is stated in canon that Lily dated James because he changed. It's also very obviously hinted at that Lily had feelings for James in SWM (plus JKR implied that she did).

Completely agree. She ended her friendship with Snape almost 2 years before she started dating James. The two things are completely unrelated, IMO. I do think she was probably starting to be attracted to James in fifth year, but she had made it clear that she would have nothing to do with him unless he changed. As far as Lily was concerned, one had nothing to do with the other. She ended her friendship with Snape because of his behavior. She didn't want anything to do with James at that point because of his behavior and did not change her mind about that until James grew up and matured.

I don't really agree with the symbolism you mentioned (and I won't get into it since everyone has the right to interpret things in the HP series as he or she wishes to), but I don't agree with the bolded. Voldemort and Snape didn't steal Lily or Snape. Snape made the concious choice to join Voldemort. Lily made the concious choice to marry James (someone that is the love of her life, proven by the form her patronus makes). Neither of them were blindly taken away from each other. Snape was the reason the friendship ended and James had nothing to do with it.

Exactly. :agree:

Given the situation in Hogwarts, I'm sure Lily would have understood then, but I'm not sure she would understand when her husband was dead. Snape insulted James even though he was dead and wasn't there to defend himself and he did it in front of Harry, an orphan. Even if Lily understood why Snape behaved that way, I do think that she would look at it negatively.

Oh absolutely. There is a world of difference between two teenage boys behaving immaturely in their rivalry at school and a 35 year old adult holding onto that grudge and continually belittling a man who died trying to protect his wife and child - to the child no less. Personally, I think Lily would have been appalled at the way Snape treated Harry - particularly because of his reasons for doing so. I know I wouldn't put up with anyone treating my kids like that - former friend or not. :no:

IMO, it's a bit unfair to assume that James would have been rude to Snape for the rest of his life. He died when he was twenty one and we don't know how he would have matured or developed had he lived longer.

I agree. We already see in the books that James was capable of putting aside his rivalry with Snape to do the right thing in regards to the werewolf prank when he was 15 years old. I don't believe James would have held onto that grudge throughout his adult life. The only thing James would have continued to be angry with Snape over is the fact that - had the Potters lived - then Snape would have continued to be a loyal Death Eater. James and Lily would have both been fighting against Snape in that event because they were fighting against Voldemort and the Death Eater as members of the Order.

I disagree; I don't think Snape and Lily were ever like James and Sirius. James and Sirius never (as far as canon indicates) had arguments because one was doing something that went against several morals of his. I always felt that James and Sirius were much closer.

Completely agree. James and Sirius bonded on a much deeper level because they were very similar in their personalities as well as their values and beliefs. They both hated the Dark Arts. They were both against pure-blood supremacy. They were both against all the ideals that Voldemort bandied about and they both dedicated their lives to fighting against that.

We simply do not see that with Snape and Lily because they had opposing views on those issues from the beginning. Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts and couldn't wait to get out of school and join Voldemort. Lily was completely opposed to those ideals and planned to fight against Voldemort. She did her best to get Snape to see how wrong it was, but there was only so much she could do. Snape was set in his path and she eventually had to accept that and move on. Again, I admire her for having the strength and courage to do that.

ComicBookWorm - I agree. :agree:

Jessica - You're wish is my command. *joins ComicBookWorm in salute*

Oh - and we already have a thread to discuss plot holes and inconsistencies within the series. I was given permission to start it a while back. I can post the link for discussion of plot holes to continue there if you would like. :)

From the posts, books etc I now have the impression that once Lily ended her friendship with Sev that James et al had no more reason to bully him and it was then they started growing up and stopped being the arrogant toe-rags they once were. Then two years later Lily and James finally got together as a couple because then Lily could see that James had really changed. If Lily had managed to salvage the friendship with Sev I wonder if James would still be an arrogant toe-rag until he left school? I guess that is one thing we'll never know.

James had to grow up on his own. Lily ending her friendship with Snape had no influence on James. What did have an influence on James, was Lily telling James he was an arrogant toerag. Had Snape decided to give up his DE friends, bigoted attitudes, and the Dark Arts, Lily would have noticed and she would have resumed the friendship, but she still would have ended up with James since they were soulmates.

But it is important to remind everyone that Lily was not, and never was, romantically interested in Snape. It was never a choice between them. She viewed them differently. One was a childhood friend who was drifting away from her, down a dark path. And the other was an immature teen, who was also her future soulmate.

I rather like anti-heroes, but they usually have hearts-of-gold (or an underlying decency) beneath their crusty non-conformist outsider exteriors. But that is typically spelled out in the text somewhere.

bold mine

In fact I thought Snape was exactly as you have written. Snape's Occlumency lessons with Harry was one such thing IMO. He had pure gold in memories if he wished to humilate Harry and cause him pain. He could have even given this to the Daily Prophet. But I don't think Snape ever told anyone about what he saw. And he never mocked Harry himself about it. He could have IMO also taunted Harry about being a house elf; taunted him about his inability to be accepted by his family and that the son of James Potter deserves to be treated like that.

Never does IMO Snape say anything like that. He never speaks a word about it IMO.

From the posts, books etc I now have the impression that once Lily ended her friendship with Sev that James et al had no more reason to bully him and it was then they started growing up and stopped being the arrogant toe-rags they once were. Then two years later Lily and James finally got together as a couple because then Lily could see that James had really changed. If Lily had managed to salvage the friendship with Sev I wonder if James would still be an arrogant toe-rag until he left school? I guess that is one thing we'll never know.

I don't think James grew up because Lily broke her frinedship with James. We have canon to tell us they fought with each other until seventh year IMO. (OOTP -- Career's Advice)

I don't think James grew up because Lily broke her frinedship with James. We have canon to tell us they fought with each other until seventh year IMO. (OOTP -- Career's Advice)
Canon only tells us that Snape never lost an opportunity to hex James and James was just defending himself. I wouldn't expect him to take it lying down either. I assume the major reason for Snape attacking James in seventh year was because this was the year James had started dating Lily, a fact that I suspect Snape was not happy about at all. I think he hexed James because of the jealousy - I think it makes more sense that way as well.

if he wished to humilate Harry and cause him pain. He could have even given this to the Daily Prophet.:huh: And of course Snape never said anything else hurtful or humiliating to Harry or other students in any of the books. This is another straw man argument. Where in canon would we assume that Snape would report Harry's memories to the Daily Prophet? It was never a possibility. :hmm: Of course had he done that, Harry could have told what he saw in Snape's memories.

Canon also says on the very same page that James never took Snape along with him on his dates and hexed him, and since Snape was one against James and his friends, I personally don't know if what James did was only in self defence. I don't believe it, but well...:shrug:

But you have to take into account exactly what JKR is talking about. The Harry Potter plot that involves Snape is the part about him overhearing the prophecy and carrying it to Voldemort. Without that, Harry's parents wouldn't have died and he wouldn't have temporarily destroyed the dark lord and become the boy who lived. Dumbledore took over from there so the story was built around his efforts from that point.

Justa very quick and non-aggressive note - this was revealed in HBP. In the interview in question, Jo was talking about revelations made in DH. So I think she meant the Lily part of his storyline specifically.

So I think she meant the Lily part of his storyline specifically.
Others have pointed to the idea that she had to leave her clues throughout the series. If that was the case, it wasn't the Lily storyline early on. Otherwise, I'd like people to show me the clues for the Snape/Lily storyline in SS/PS and CoS; and not the asphodel and wormwood allusion, since those actually are plants that could belong in a draught of living death, based solely on attributes typically associated with the plants. Besides, it's not a hint if a teen or preteen couldn't detect it in the storyline, especially since the earlier books were aimed at a younger audience.

Snape was important because he revealed the prophecy. Snape was also important as an alternative antagonist, and Jo played on that on misdirection heavily. Lily was Snape's motivation for returning to the good side and the reason Voldemort gave her a chance to live. However, that business about being offered a chance didn't show up until much later in the series. At first, it was just the fact that she laid down her life for Harry. And at first it was all about Snape and his life debt to James. Then later on the life debt concept simply vanished, which was good since it was too precarious to define what was or wasn't worthy of a life debt. And then the idea of Lily's sacrifice became more sophisticated to include the offer of her life. That change was needed because it's easy to see that others would have willingly sacrificed themselves for their loved ones in the past, so there had to be other reasons that Harry lived.

Most of this sophistication came somewhere around GoF, continuing on to OotP. And that is when the series got more complex (although PoA did demonstrate more richness of themes and depth of emotional impact).

yes. snape was the bad freind.what type of freind would call there only freind the most horrible thing they could think of.Lily was good snape was bad.

James had to grow up on his own. Lily ending her friendship with Snape had no influence on James. What did have an influence on James, was Lily telling James he was an arrogant toerag. Had Snape decided to give up his DE friends, bigoted attitudes, and the Dark Arts, Lily would have noticed and she would have resumed the friendship, but she still would have ended up with James since they were soulmates.

But it is important to remind everyone that Lily was not, and never was, romantically interested in Snape. It was never a choice between them. She viewed them differently. One was a childhood friend who was drifting away from her, down a dark path. And the other was an immature teen, who was also her future soulmate.

Completely agree. :agree:

Canon only tells us that Snape never lost an opportunity to hex James and James was just defending himself. I wouldn't expect him to take it lying down either. I assume the major reason for Snape attacking James in seventh year was because this was the year James had started dating Lily, a fact that I suspect Snape was not happy about at all. I think he hexed James because of the jealousy - I think it makes more sense that way as well.

I agree. I always felt it was significant that - for James and his friends - the rivalry was about Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts. I think Lily was only a factor in that from Snape's point of view.

And it was rather sweet of James not to tell Lily that her former best friend was always attacking him after they started dating, IMO. He could have easily taken the low road there, but what purpose would that have served? It wouldn't have changed anything and Lily would have only been hurt by knowing that.

:huh: And of course Snape never said anything else hurtful or humiliating to Harry or other students in any of the books. This is another straw man argument. Where in canon would we assume that Snape would report Harry's memories to the Daily Prophet? It was never a possibility. :hmm: Of course had he done that, Harry could have told what he saw in Snape's memories.

Exactly. That was a two way street because Harry learned something that was humiating to Snape in all that as well when he saw SWM. I think Dumbledore is a factor in all that as well because he really held all the cards when it came to Snape. Dumbledore could have easily thrown Snape to the wolves at any point during all that if he felt that Snape wasn't following his end of the bargain they made.

That was actually something that really disturbed me about the Occlumency lessons. Snape saw for himself the pain and suffering that he had caused Harry and it really didn't have any affect on him at all. This is the son of the the woman he claims to love and it doesn't bother him in the slightest that he was genuinely abused and neglected for all those years because of what he did. That was Snape's opportunity to see that Harry's nature was more like Lily's overall and he just didn't want to.

Others have pointed to the idea that she had to leave her clues throughout the series. If that was the case, it wasn't the Lily storyline early on. Otherwise, I'd like people to show me the clues for the Snape/Lily storyline in SS/PS and CoS; and not the asphodel and wormwood allusion, since those actually are plants that could belong in a draught of living death, based solely on attributes typically associated with the plants. Besides, it's not a hint if a teen or preteen couldn't detect it in the storyline, especially since the earlier books were aimed at a younger audience.

Snape was important because he revealed the prophecy. Snape was also important as an alternative antagonist, and Jo played on that on misdirection heavily. Lily was Snape's motivation for returning to the good side and the reason Voldemort gave her a chance to live. However, that business about being offered a chance didn't show up until much later in the series. At first, it was just the fact that she laid down her life for Harry. And at first it was all about Snape and his life debt to James. Then later on the life debt concept simply vanished, which was good since it was too precarious to define what was or wasn't worthy of a life debt. And then the idea of Lily's sacrifice became more sophisticated to include the offer of her life. That change was needed because it's easy to see that others would have willingly sacrificed themselves for their loved ones in the past, so there had to be other reasons that Harry lived.

Most of this sophistication came somewhere around GoF, continuing on to OotP. And that is when the series got more complex (although PoA did demonstrate more richness of themes and depth of emotional impact).

That's pretty much how I saw it as well. And Jo always maintained that she had a general outline worked out, but left herself room to manuever in regards to the details.

And at first it was all about Snape and his life debt to James. Then later on the life debt concept simply vanished, which was good since it was too precarious to define what was or wasn't worthy of a life debt.

I have never seen it like that. Even before DH, I've always had the impression that Dumbledore's answer to Harry was a red herring - a way to hide the real reasons - namely, Snape's promise to protect him. It does tie in very neatly with DH, doesn't it? One can re-read PS and go "Aha!" I think that storyline was there all along - Lily, the sacrifice, Snape. The reason no mention is made of it is simple - it had to eb a revelation reserved for the last book and Jo had to make sure it won't be obvious or easily deductible.

And then the idea of Lily's sacrifice became more sophisticated to include the offer of her life. That change was needed because it's easy to see that others would have willingly sacrificed themselves for their loved ones in the past, so there had to be other reasons that Harry lived.

That's one possibility. However, I can't agree this was the case. I don't believe Jo wouldn't say so if it were. Yet she never mentions any changes - on the contrary, she specifically puts Snape's and Dumbledore's stories in constrast with plots which have evolved as the series progressed - she says that unlike those, Snape's and Dumbledore's storylines were always there, since PS was finished. I believe her.

:huh: And of course Snape never said anything else hurtful or humiliating to Harry or other students in any of the books. This is another straw man argument. Where in canon would we assume that Snape would report Harry's memories to the Daily Prophet? It was never a possibility. :hmm: Of course had he done that, Harry could have told what he saw in Snape's memories.

Snape's comments to Harry looked to me as if it was always a comparison to James, about his breaking rules and not caring or following them and a whole lot of past involved, everytime Snape opened his mouth and spoke to Harry. The comparisons were also about how the wrong or misplaced trust hurt the Potters family IMO.

I don't think Snape has ever hurt Harry using things from Harry's life to mock, taunt or put him down IMO.

The SWM was witnessed by a lot of people IMO. It was a secret only for us I think. And Harry was not affected by Snape hanging upside down as much as it was his father who did that. Harry compares James to Dudley and Draco. That was how he felt and I doubt he would talk about the memory accusing Snape, because in that Harry felt James was In the wrong IMO and not Snape. He would be putting his father and Sirius down IMO and I beleive Harry would not talk about it. He never tells even Hermione and Ron IMO. That's how let down I thought Harry was.

Justa very quick and non-aggressive note - this was revealed in HBP. In the interview in question, Jo was talking about revelations made in DH. So I think she meant the Lily part of his storyline specifically.

I never assume agression, so no worries. ;)

Actually, I read the interview. JKR indicated that Snape and Dumbledore were important in book 7 because they were involved in the foundation plot which the story was built around. Obviously they were not the only two persons in the series that were involved in the foundation plot - but they were the only two of those involved whose personal subplot ("hows and whys") had not been revealed, and they were highlighted (revealed) in book 7. Being the last book, it was important that they be revealed there.

The revelations in DH were important for Snape's subplot because half the readers believed he was truly a Death Eater. However, the explanation as to why he was not a Death Eater was not germane to the main plot, it was just the "how and why" pertaining to his personal subplot. Snape and Lily's old friendship certainly impacted the "how and why" of Snape's subplot in the story.

To clarify, the main plot involved Snape, Voldemort and Peter, Lily, Dumbledore, Sirius, Harry and James, all absolutely crucial to the facts. The main plot was Harry becoming the boy who lived and having to combat the evil Lord Voldemort as orchestrated by Dumbledore. That was set up by the delievery of the prophecy, Sirius' secret keeper switch, James and Lily's agreement, Peter's betrayal, Voldemort killing the Potter's, James giving Lily time to reach Harry, Voldemort asking Llily to step aside, Harry's survival and Dumbledore's plan to bring down Voldemort. That is how the those people were germane to the main plot.

New issue: these individuals were all important to the "how and why" of the main plot, but that involved a lot of subplots, not just Snape's or Dumbledore's. The "how and why" of the central plot is irrelevant in the sense that those elements could change for every player involved and we could still have the main plot.

To further clarify, if Snape's "how and why" subplot was germane to the main plot, then Peter's "how and why" would be equally significant (and everyone else mentioned). Because JKR didn't mention Peter or the others, she could not have been referring to the "how and why" of the subplots in relation to their importance to the overall main plot. She was speaking of the two characters involved in the main plot that had yet to be revealed in their true colors. We knew the stories behind all of the other players involved in the main plot. Snape had no subplot without James, Lily, Voldemort, Harry and Peter. And most importantly, finding out about Snape's subplot did not change the main plot of the book at all (same with the others). See what I mean? :)

One further point of clarification; the revelation that Snape loved Lily did not clear everything up with his subplot. That Snape remained jealous of James was crucial to the understanding of why Snape behaved in a particularly negative manner to Harry and the belittling comparisons Snape made (i.e., he loathed Sirius too, but there were not belittling "just like your godfather" statements). It also explained why Snape rejected Voldemort, but to understand the "how" Dumbledore became crucial to his subplot (his love for Lily didn't explain how he actually switched sides). Lily's death was another important factor and the "how" of that involved Peter and Voldemort.

I feel that Snape and Lily never had a good friendship because of the memories shown. Almost every scene we are given shows their friendship in a negative light, so I find that difficult to think that they had a wonderful friendship.
The same could be said of Lily and James. We never see a scene where they are getting along nicely, but there is no doubt that they did. This is not James, Lily's or Snape's story so we cannot be shown everything on page. I take it that Snape and Lily did have a good friendship because it survived to fifth year despite them being in different houses and those houses being the biggest rivals.

CBW - Profuse apologies for not really explaining what I meant.
What I was really trying to say was that different people relate to different characters, and have sympathies with the flaws different characters have. I find it very hard to find any sympathy with Lupin, but that's just me; I know that other people empathise greatly with him and he is their favourite character. I happen to empathise with Snape; some people will never be able to understand why, that's just the way it is.
So yes I think some readers are more in tume with some characters and other readers are more in tune with other characters.
I can admire Snape for the brave things he did, but that does not mean I condone the way he treated Harry.

What will never work for me is the idea of Snape as romantic. He was not an admirable person. He was cruel and abusive to children. Having been an abused child who also ended up in an abusive marriage, I don't find nasty abusive people attractive.
This kind of supports what I was saying. Each of us interprets the books based on our own experiences. I had a similar experience to Tonks with my husband and as such I positively cheered when Harry had a go at Lupin.

In some ways, having him love Lily was merely a convenient plot device.Hmmm. I'd be more inclined to say that having him loathe Harry was a plot device, because it was his ill-treatment of Harry that made so many fans think he was evil. If he had treated Harry well, then nobody would have suspected him. So it was necessary to have Snape loathe Harry in order to hide the truth - that he loved his mother.

Given that Jo has said that she planned the Snape/Lily relationship from the start and that she gave clues, and some readers noticed those clues, I can't understand how some readers can maintain that they are not there. They may be bad or weak clues, but surely if the writer says they are there then they are there.


Canon only tells us that Snape never lost an opportunity to hex James and James was just defending himself.
Canon says that Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James - it says nothing about James only defending himself. Given that the conversation started because Harry was concerned about what he saw in the Pensieve i.e. his father hexing Snape, I think the mention of Snape hexing James was to balance the scales - James hexed Snape, but Snape hexed James as well, and James would respond even if he knew Lily wouldn't approve.

James had to grow up on his own. Lily ending her friendship with Snape had no influence on James. What did have an influence on James, was Lily telling James he was an arrogant toerag. Had Snape decided to give up his DE friends, bigoted attitudes, and the Dark Arts, Lily would have noticed and she would have resumed the friendship, but she still would have ended up with James since they were soulmates.

But it is important to remind everyone that Lily was not, and never was, romantically interested in Snape. It was never a choice between them. She viewed them differently. One was a childhood friend who was drifting away from her, down a dark path. And the other was an immature teen, who was also her future soulmate.
I agree with this. My feeling is that if Severus had changed and given up the Dark Arts and his DE friends then his friendship with Lily would have continued. I don't think that they would have been involved romantically, but Snape could have got over her and might have found someone else. I see that as being dependent on Snape making a different choice when he was 16.

Dumbledore could have easily thrown Snape to the wolves at any point during all that if he felt that Snape wasn't following his end of the bargain they made.
I really don't know how Dumbledore could have thrown Snape to the wolves. Are you implying that Dumbledore could get Snape thrown into Azkaban? If so I don't see how. Snape had had his trial and been cleared, so unless Dumbledore changed his testimony, (which would have made him the subject of an inquiry at the ministry) Snape was not in any danger of going to Azkaban, unless he committed some knew crime, which he didn't.
Not only that but Dumbledore's testimony was the truth - that Snape had been a death Eater but was now working as a spy for him. So why would Dumbledore decide to change that and lie?


Jo says the plot regarding Snape and Lily was decided by the time she had finished PS/SS. I do not see that it was necessary for her to drop massive hints in the first three books, just to make sure that what is written fits when the big revelation is made at the end. (I however did wonder about Snape's foaming at the mouth in the shack.) The things is when writing such a long series you have to have it all the major plotlines sorted before you get far into it otherwise the whole thing is likely to collapse - especially when each volume is published as it is printed. Jo knew she would not have the opportunity to go back and change things later, so it had to all be there.

Snape was important because he revealed the prophecy. Snape was also important as an alternative antagonist, and Jo played on that on misdirection heavily. Lily was Snape's motivation for returning to the good side and the reason Voldemort gave her a chance to live. However, that business about being offered a chance didn't show up until much later in the series. At first, it was just the fact that she laid down her life for Harry. And at first it was all about Snape and his life debt to James. Then later on the life debt concept simply vanished, which was good since it was too precarious to define what was or wasn't worthy of a life debt. And then the idea of Lily's sacrifice became more sophisticated to include the offer of her life. That change was needed because it's easy to see that others would have willingly sacrificed themselves for their loved ones in the past, so there had to be other reasons that Harry lived.
I don't think anything was "changed" as such. I think that the Jo knew what was important to the main plot and what wasn't, and that information regarding the main plot was released slowly in a trickle throughout the first 3-4 books.
I never really regarded the life debt as significant. To me when Dumbledore mentions it to Harry in the hospital wing, it sounded like something that was bothering Snape ("Funny how peoples mind's work") rather than a magical thing. (And am I the only person annoyed that Dumbledore said he wouldn't lie and then lied?) When Dumbledore later spoke of the life-debt as deep magic, I thought he meant like love or music are deep magic rather than as some sort of enchantment, so Ireally don't see that anything was "changed" only that the emphasis was altered.

bold mine

In fact I thought Snape was exactly as you have written. Snape's Occlumency lessons with Harry was one such thing IMO. He had pure gold in memories if he wished to humilate Harry and cause him pain. He could have even given this to the Daily Prophet. But I don't think Snape ever told anyone about what he saw. And he never mocked Harry himself about it. He could have IMO also taunted Harry about being a house elf; taunted him about his inability to be accepted by his family and that the son of James Potter deserves to be treated like that.

Never does IMO Snape say anything like that. He never speaks a word about it IMO.


True that this could be an example of his goodness; however, I wonder how much of Snape really is "gold." As much as I love the character and think that there has to be some goodness in him, especially for joining the Order, I wonder how much my desire for him to be a better man actually skews my view and makes him a better man. You know they say love is blind and perhaps that is the case here. This is not to say that Snape's dedication to the Order and his sacrifices are not good, I just think I tend to attribute more goodness to him than what is really there.



Canon only tells us that Snape never lost an opportunity to hex James and James was just defending himself. I wouldn't expect him to take it lying down either. I assume the major reason for Snape attacking James in seventh year was because this was the year James had started dating Lily, a fact that I suspect Snape was not happy about at all. I think he hexed James because of the jealousy - I think it makes more sense that way as well.

I so agree with this. He must have absolutely loathed seeing James and Lily together. I can completely see Snape hexing James for this reason.

:huh: And of course Snape never said anything else hurtful or humiliating to Harry or other students in any of the books. This is another straw man argument. Where in canon would we assume that Snape would report Harry's memories to the Daily Prophet? It was never a possibility. :hmm: Of course had he done that, Harry could have told what he saw in Snape's memories.

I never saw that as a possibility either. I mean even if he tried, I think he would have been laughed at and turned away because of his seeming dislike of Harry. I do not see anyone taking him seriously.

True that this could be an example of his goodness; however, I wonder how much of Snape really is "gold." As much as I love the character and think that there has to be some goodness in him, especially for joining the Order, I wonder how much my desire for him to be a better man actually skews my view and makes him a better man. You know they say love is blind and perhaps that is the case here. This is not to say that Snape's dedication to the Order and his sacrifices are not good, I just think I tend to attribute more goodness to him than what is really there.

I know the feeling, Tonks. ;) To sum up, what Snape did for the Order = good :tu:
His attitude to Harry = :no:

I never saw that as a possibility either. I mean even if he tried, I think he would have been laughed at and turned away because of his seeming dislike of Harry. I do not see anyone taking him seriously.

Yes. To give Severus credit where credit is due, I don't see him as being either that vicious or that stupid. :whistle:

But this all belongs in the Snape thread. ;)

Anyways, back to Snape and Lily ... :whistle: :D

Beatifically mentioned that a more apt literary parallel might be Heathcliff/Cathy rather than Romeo/Juliet. I can see some parallels with the Romeo/Juliet themes, as Kittling suggested, in that Snape and Lily come from two opposing Houses: the House with a pure-blood agenda and the House that opposes pure-blood prejudice. However, a much more apt Romeo/Juliet analogy would be Draco/Hermione and that of course is a fanon pairing, not a canon one. :D

The Heathcliff comparison often crops up in relation to Snape. :D (I do think Snape was a better man than Heathcliff though. :whistle: ) However, Heathcliff/Cathy are soulmates (very dark soulmates -- they are both as selfish and unpleasant as the other!!) and their love is requited. That is not the case with Snape/Lily, which turns out to be unrequited love.

But Remus never intentionally put Snape's life in danger. In fact, Snape had an idea of what he'd see if he'd go down the tunnel. Lily said she already heard of his "theories," indicating that Snape had voiced his suspicion of Remus being a werewolf before. Snape went down the tunnel aware that he may meet a fully grown werewolf.

:no: I was not referring to Remus, In fact I think that if I were Snape Remus would be the only one of the marauders I would believe was not involved. I was actually referring to Sirius, as he was the one who gave Snape the information of how to get into the womping willow.

I would also like to raise a point about the idea that Snape went down there knowing what he would find; obviously it’s my opinion / interpretation. :) I think most people would agree that neither Snape nor Sirius thought the other was a nice person, but I don’t think either thought the other capable of killing anyone either (please remember I am talking about the characters right up until the womping willow incident :)). Given that Snape thought Sirius was not someone who would kill or plot the death of someone – how would he then judge the information the Sirius gave him? I very much feel that the reason Snape disregarded the possibility of a werewolf being there was because Sirius gave him the information.

Those are all possible, except that could be applied to any situation in the series. How did everyone find out what happened when Harry met Quirrel? There were only three (okay, maybe four if you count Voldemort) people that were there yet the whole school found out. I interpreted that it was the same for the Werewolf Incident; after all, Lily did say that she "heard" about what happened.

Why James? Why not Sirius or Remus? How is James a more likely suspect? Actually, why is James a suspect in the first place? :huh:

The event occurred out of bounds & after curfew; so it is exceedingly unlikely there were any other students in the vicinity, there can’t have been portraits there & I don’t recall ghosts in the grounds (although I could be wrong on that point) – so the only people who knew about it at the moment it was happening were; Sirius, Snape & James (I discount Remus as he seems to be unable to remember anything about being in wolf form once he reverts to human).

OK – so you could argue that the story was spread by someone / thing overhearing a conversation about it once they returned to the castle.

The portraits have been mentioned – I would assert that Dumbledore (or any teacher/ member of staff who knew) would make sure that any such discussion would happen in secret as the school would suffer if the story got out. The headmaster’s office seems – to me – to be the most obvious place for such a discussion because the portraits there are bound to serve the school/the current headmaster; therefore if Dumbledore says it must be a secret, or even that e wishes it to be one, the are bound not to talk about it. This is both the reason I believe that the headmasters office would be chosen & the reason I would discount the portraits in this instance. The headmaster’s office does not seem to be a place where a student is gong to be ale to eves drop; they’d need the pass word for a start.

Ok the source of be story might be connected to the hospital wing.

IMO we can disregard Madame Pomphrey [spelling?] as the source of the story - she already knows about Remus & that it must be kept a secret – also I can’t see her breaking patient confidentiality she is strict & proper about her job IMO. The Portraits there – I just can’t help feeling that patient confidentiality is something they would respect, would Madame P let the be there otherwise? Another student in the Hospital perhaps? Well ok maybe – but I can’t help but think that with all the secrecy involved & the possible ramifications for the school that maybe someone would either use a private room or muffilato (or a similar type of spell) after all if school kids can manage it a member of staff should have no problem (well except Mr Filtch [spelling?])

I feel that Snape and Lily never had a good friendship because of the memories shown. Almost every scene we are given shows their friendship in a negative light, so I find that difficult to think that they had a wonderful friendship. :shrug:

But they were friends for over 5 years – that in itself implies something must have been good about it, as IMO does the fact that Lily tried really hard to keep the friendship even when her other friends spoke against it. Severus being a logical man may easily have assumed that would be enough besides the falling apart of the relationship & the fact that Snape regretted it are far more important, in terms of plot, than seeing what good friends they may have been /were.


I do feel that it was clear that Snape was prejudiced before he got into Hogwarts, but it's very likely that being sorted into Slytherin and befriending the ones that supported pureblood supremacy further influenced him.

Ok – I have to admit I don’t feel comfortable using the word ‘prejudice’ in relation to Snape, especially 'school boy Snape'. In relation to other characters, such as the Malfoy’s, I have no such qualms. It all comes own to the word ‘Prejudice’ which means a judgment or opinion made without any basis in fact. In the case of many wizards, such as the Malfoy’s, this is indeed what happens – they hold opinions that have no basis in fact. Snape on the other hand starts at Hogwarts with only/predominantly negative experiences of muggles. (see P24, posts 479, 484 & 485). His opinion, even though it is incorrect, has a solid basis in fact – therefore it does not seem to me to qualify as prejudice.

Please note - I am not saying his view was correct or that agree with it at all.

However I agree that the influences surrounding him in Slytherin would have further affected him.

I disagree; I don't think Snape and Lily were ever like James and Sirius. James and Sirius never (as far as canon indicates) had arguments because one was doing something that went against several morals of his. I always felt that James and Sirius were much closer.

Whether or not I agree with your main point the werewolf incident at the very least shows Sirius doing something that James disagrees with strongly enough to endanger himself to stop. I always imagined an argument or two about it after the fact, after all not only did he put someone at serious risk of death or becoming a werewolf, he also risked exposing Remus & getting him thrown out of school.

You're very right, that's exactly what Romeo and Juliet had. :agree: I don't see any strong similarities between Snape and Lily and Romeo and Juliet. Romeo and Juliet fell in love at first sight, but their main problem with their relationship was that their families hated each other. That was not hte case with Snape and Lily. The biggest problem with Snape and Lily's friendship is that Snape was attracted to the Dark Arts/Voldemort and had friends that were "evil."

I don't see a strong comparison with the themes of Romeo and Juliet. They both have tragedies, but a lot of other famous romance stories do as well. IMO, Heathcliff and Catherine would be a stronger example.

The comparison was not with the couple (Romeo & Snape had almost nothing in common & the same can be said about Juliet & Lily) In fact I used the words ‘hinted’. To me, even on the first reading of PS, the mention of draught of living death brought to mind the play Romeo & Juliet - therefore the themes of ‘two houses divided’ ‘doomed romance’ and tragic death(s) also came to mind

Yes, the Wuthering Heights parallel also exists - but it too is imperfect as a direct parallel – e.g. Cathy & Heathcliff’s love for each other was not unrequited – far from it they were both crazy about each other (in SO many ways! :lol:) however the way it spills over to affect many people across generations is defiantly IMO present in the HP series. As is the idea that our childhood affects how we value & expect others to value us; & the idea that no matter how much you love someone you can still make really bad choices that ruin everything.

I feel that Snape and Lily never had a good friendship because of the memories shown. Almost every scene we are given shows their friendship in a negative light, so I find that difficult to think that they had a wonderful friendship. :shrug:

We see the memories of Snape and Lily's fifth year, which means that they were IMO good friends until then. We saw the memories to the break up IMO.

:I would also like to raise a point about the idea that Snape went down there knowing what he would find; obviously it’s my opinion / interpretation. :) I think most people would agree that neither Snape nor Sirius thought the other was a nice person, but I don’t think either thought the other capable of killing anyone either (please remember I am talking about the characters right up until the womping willow incident :)). Given that Snape thought Sirius was not someone who would kill or plot the death of someone – how would he then judge the information the Sirius gave him? I very much feel that the reason Snape disregarded the possibility of a werewolf being there was because Sirius gave him the information.

Snape told Lily he believed Remus was a werewolf before the werewolf incident. He'd been following Remus and watching him for several full moons according to what he told Lily - that means several months at least because you only have 1 full moon a month. Snape went into the tunnel during the full moon with that knowledge. Snape's enemy told him how to stop the tree and the school had warned all of the students not to approach the tree - let alone stop it from moving so one could access the danger it protected them from (everyone even Lily knew there was "some danger" there). So I would say that Snape was 99% sure that he'd find a werewolf at the end of the tunnel. What interests me is what Snape planned to do once he came upon the werewolf. What did he plan to do to Remus in order to protect himself?

The event occurred out of bounds & after curfew; so it is exceedingly unlikely there were any other students in the vicinity, there can’t have been portraits there & I don’t recall ghosts in the grounds (although I could be wrong on that point) – so the only people who knew about it at the moment it was happening were; Sirius, Snape & James (I discount Remus as he seems to be unable to remember anything about being in wolf form once he reverts to human).

Snape could have told his friends the story, merely saying he didn't see the danger at the end of the tunnel. Dumbledore told them not to tell anyone Remus was a werewolf, but kids look for technicalities - that didn't mean they couldn't tell the rest of the tale. It is unlikely that James and Sirius would implicate Remus by telling the story.

Ok – I have to admit I don’t feel comfortable using the word ‘prejudice’ in relation to Snape, especially 'school boy Snape'. In relation to other characters, such as the Malfoy’s, I have no such qualms. It all comes own to the word ‘Prejudice’ which means a judgment or opinion made without any basis in fact. In the case of many wizards, such as the Malfoy’s, this is indeed what happens – they hold opinions that have no basis in fact. Snape on the other hand starts at Hogwarts with only/predominantly negative experiences of muggles. (see P24, posts 479, 484 & 485). His opinion, even though it is incorrect, has a solid basis in fact – therefore it does not seem to me to qualify as prejudice.

Well the definition does not mean that someone believes they personally have a good basis - that is what everyone who is prejudice thinks. It means that in reality there is no good basis, regardless if some individuals feel they have a good reason for it. Snape was exhibiting prejudice behavior as his friends were and they may have all had different reasons for doing so - each believing they had a solid basis for their beliefs, but they were all mistaken.

The same could be said of Lily and James. We never see a scene where they are getting along nicely, but there is no doubt that they did.
But we were shown two positive memories in pictures of the couple, as well as James dying for Lily and trying to give her a chance to run away. The pictures themselves speak loads to me. A picture is worth a thousand words, is it not? ;) The same cannot be said for Snape and Lily. We were shown nothing but negativity.

Given that Jo has said that she planned the Snape/Lily relationship from the start and that she gave clues, and some readers noticed those clues, I can't understand how some readers can maintain that they are not there. They may be bad or weak clues, but surely if the writer says they are there then they are there.
There can be hints for anything if you look hard enough though. I don't think there were any hints until HBP (Lily's love of potions), but even that can be debatable.

Meesha
And it was rather sweet of James not to tell Lily that her former best friend was always attacking him after they started dating, IMO. He could have easily taken the low road there, but what purpose would that have served? It wouldn't have changed anything and Lily would have only been hurt by knowing that.
:love: I don't think Lily would have wanted to know that Snape was attacking James at every opportunity, but Sirius said she "didn't know too much about it" which I took to mean she did have some vague idea (the rivalry wasn't exactly a quiet fact).

There can be hints for anything if you look hard enough though. I don't think there were any hints until HBP (Lily's love of potions), but even that can be debatable.
Yes there can be hints for anything if you look hard enough (Some people thought Snape was a vampire, others that Harry and Hermione would become romantically involved) but the difference is that in this case we have the author saying that those particular plot lines had been planned from the start and hinted at throughout the series.
If Jo says the hints or clues or whatever are there, then either they are there or she is a liar.
I think they are there.

Oh my gosh I just remembered something! Since Lily had a love for potions perhaps that's why Snape took the potions master job when Dumbeldore wouldn't let him have the Deffence Against the Dark Arts job.

Oh my gosh I just remembered something! Since Lily had a love for potions perhaps that's why Snape took the potions master job when Dumbeldore wouldn't let him have the Deffence Against the Dark Arts job.

that's what I always figured - it also left me questioning if he really did want the DADA job :hmm:

Oh my gosh I just remembered something! Since Lily had a love for potions perhaps that's why Snape took the potions master job when Dumbeldore wouldn't let him have the Deffence Against the Dark Arts job.


That would have been a sweet move indeed :)

On the signs from Snape/Lily from the begining, I agree if JKR says they are there then they are. I mean all the tensions between James and Snape had to come from somewhere. That, for me, was a big clue.

I mean all the tensions between James and Snape had to come from somewhere. That, for me, was a big clue.
No they didn't. Sirius and Snape's relationship had a lot more tension imo. It was so bad Sirius almost send Snape to a werewolf because Snape following him around had bothered him so much. The two hated each other, and there was no girl between them. James and Snape also disliked each other the moment they met. It had nothing to do with Lily at first - she was only a factor later on and this was a factor that, imo, would not have changed the mutual hate James and Snape had if it had not been present. If Lily hadn't existed, I still think James and Snape would have hated each other. So that is why I don't think that James and Snape's rivalry was a strong hint towards Lily and Snape's friendship or Snape's love for Lily. This is a logical argument in my opinion, and the one pre DH that I used to counter the Lily and Snape theory - Sirius and Snape hated each other, perhaps more strongly, and never had a girl between them.

That's one possibility. However, I can't agree this was the case. I don't believe Jo wouldn't say so if it were. Yet she never mentions any changes - on the contrary, she specifically puts Snape's and Dumbledore's stories in constrast with plots which have evolved as the series progressed - she says that unlike those, Snape's and Dumbledore's storylines were always there, since PS was finished. I believe her.Snape's story was always there, but I think the romance was an embellishment later on. I don't think that is inconsistent with her statement.

On the signs from Snape/Lily from the begining, I agree if JKR says they are there then they are.
She didn't say that. She said that Snape and Dumbledore were important from the beginning. She never said that Snape/Lily was there from the beginning.

Yes but there had to be a reason Snape and Albus were important from the beginning and Lily was obviously the reason. She did say that we would learn something important about Lily many years ago when asked and her relationship with Sev would have been that thing.

Yes but there had to be a reason Snape and Albus were important from the beginning and Lily was obviously the reason.

I would respectfully disagree that it was the obvious reason. The obvious reason is because it was Snape who delivered the prophecy to Voldemort, imo.

Snape's emotions for Lily have no bearing on his delivery, he just knew 'some baby' and its family would be targeted. JKR didn't mention anything about the reason why Harry survived Voldemort being important. That point includes Voldemort and Lily as much as Snape - even if Snape did ask him to spare Lily, Voldemort was the one who had to make the final decision to do so. Lily had to decide not to step aside.

The only part that is solely about Snape and fundamental to the story is his delivery of the prophecy, imo.

The hows and whys of Harry's survival are not fundamental to the story, imo. Just like the hows and whys of Harry being born in the first place are not fundamental. Those points are not essential to the plot, imo, they just help explain it.

JKR didn't mention anything about the reason why Harry survived Voldemort being important.

Hmmm...I would have to say that I can't imagine saying you've got an idea / rough draft of the whole story arc = not coving why/how Harry survived the AK when he was a baby. It is given as the mystery of the story from the first (or maybe just he second) chapter of the series. To me this is just one of several things that indicate that it has to be covered in the rough draft.

From the context of the whole interview, and the fact taht she was talking, throughout it all, about how the seventh book relates to earlier books and clues dropped in them, it seemed pretty clear to me that she emant Snape's and Dumbledore's entire stories. I don't see why she would be talking about Snape's story MINUS Lily and fail to mention that. Wouldn't she have said something along the lines of adding the Lily part later on? Surely she realizes that saying that she had his story figured by the end of PS would sound like she had his complete story figured by then? Where exactly is the lunguistic or contextual or any clue at all, that when Jo said "Snape's stroy", she was specifically excluding Lily from it, or she meant just one segment of it - the telling of the prophecy (which was revealed in HBP anyway!)? I see none. I think ot's logical to assume she means Snape's story, period. Not Snape's story's beginning, or Snape's story minus the romance part.

Snape, as secretly fighting Voldemort, is his story.

Snape, as secretly fighting Voldemort, is his story.

I wouldn't be so certain. Jo might be considering Lily a part of his story as well, since she's his motivation for starting his work against Voldemort in the first place.

Also - Snape working for Dumbledore was revealed in GoF. Jo was talking specifically about revelations in DH. Which is where we learn of why Dumbledore trusted him and why Snape worked for him at all - Lily. So I don't understand why she isn't a part of that story arch, or what other revelation regarding Snape there was in DH for Jo to be referring to.

Which is where we learn of why Dumbledore trusted him and why Snape worked for him at all
She spent HBP and DH trying very hard to convince us that Snape was evil. It was a big revelation in DH that he wasn't.

Ok. You see it like that, I see it differently. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then. But I still cannot see a reason for "Snape's story" to exclude Lily.

It doesn't exclude Lily. I just think that early on that hadn't been part of the process. And the important central part was both Snape's loyalty and his role in the prophecy.

You see she had "Spinner's End" and then "The Lightning-Struck Tower" and "The Flight of the Prince" to make him look evil in HBP and then "The Dark Lord Rising" and "The Seven Potters" in DH. She had kept him ambiguous enough until HBP that it wasn't too hard for her to lay it on a little thicker.

Of course Lily explained his motivation, but I think Jo added that later on.

However Snape's story included Lily from his childhood and the story goes back to his childhood and schooldays when he decided to join the DE's and Voldemort in the first place. He just didn't suddenly overnight to become involved with all these people so it was part of the process. I t goes back a long way before he overheard the prophecy and it's just that Jo left us with this enigmatic character just to add spice to our suspense - is or isn't he (evil I mean)? Lily is also the reason Snape was protecting Harry and changing sides though Voldemort was too arrogant to realise he was being had. One thing Albus and Snape didn't take into account was the treachery of Peter Pettigrew. But it was Lily/ Severus relationship, Severus/Albus relationship and ultimately Harry/Voldemort thing as the central things in the story.

From the context of the whole interview, and the fact taht she was talking, throughout it all, about how the seventh book relates to earlier books and clues dropped in them, it seemed pretty clear to me that she emant Snape's and Dumbledore's entire stories. I don't see why she would be talking about Snape's story MINUS Lily and fail to mention that. Wouldn't she have said something along the lines of adding the Lily part later on? Surely she realizes that saying that she had his story figured by the end of PS would sound like she had his complete story figured by then? Where exactly is the lunguistic or contextual or any clue at all, that when Jo said "Snape's stroy", she was specifically excluding Lily from it, or she meant just one segment of it - the telling of the prophecy (which was revealed in HBP anyway!)? I see none. I think ot's logical to assume she means Snape's story, period. Not Snape's story's beginning, or Snape's story minus the romance part.

But that part is not relevant to Snape being important in book 7 as far as the main plot goes. What if it turned out that Snape and Lily were actually sister and brother? The plot would be the same, his motive would be all that was different. Do you see what I mean?

What was left to reveal about Snape made him important to book 7. And what made it important to reveal it was that he was one of the several players that the main plot was built around. Are you contending that the entire series was built around Snape and Dumbledore? Without Harry they have no roles and without Voldemort, Harry would have no story. And without James and Lily there would be no mum and father Potter and Harry would be dead or not born. :lol:

It was the important things that all of these people did that caused the main plot to function. All of their subplot stories that helped explain the main plot were told, only a portion of Snape and Dumbledore's remained to be told, that is why they were important to book seven. But the entire plot wasn't built on Snape's love for Lily, or Dumbledore's love for Grindlewald and subsequent decision to go good. That just helps explain the subplots of two players involved in the main plot we didn't have all the info on yet. Aimo.

Also in her interview on History Channel 2008, she said the first character she thought up was Harry Potter, then the castle and magical world, then that he would war with Voldemort. She didn't start with Dumbledore and Snape's plots and go from there.

But that part is not relevant to Snape being important in book 7 as far as the main plot goes. What if it turned out that Snape and Lily were actually sister and brother? The plot would be the same, his motive would be all that was different. Do you see what I mean?


Nowhere did I mention the specifity of his feelings for Lily - I was only speaking of her as his motivation. Which in my opinion is a huge part of Snape's story, and when Jo says, "Snape's story has been there since PS was finished", I'm heavily inclined to believe she means Lily as well as prophecy.

Snape was important because of his love for Lily. If he hadn't loved her Harry most likely wouldn't have succeeding in overthrowing Voldemort since he would have not been able to procure the sword without a GREAT deal of trouble - if at all.

Many people played important parts but as has been stated his love for Lily was Snape's motivation and without her he may well have stayed on the Dark Side.

Without her, he would have stayed on the Dark side. Jo has told us as much.

BTW. I really don't think it was a great love. I think he was obsessed. And I would think that of anyone who held onto an unrequited love for 20 years, long after the person was dead, thus failing to move on and ever love anyone else.

His love for Lily was his motivation, but IMO this was not a great tragic romance. Snape was tragic, because of his own mistakes, but there was no romance (since Lily never felt the same way), just an unrequited love from a friendship that ended when they were 16.

But that was Snape all over - unable to move on and even though the love was unrequieted to the point it became regret and obsession - it was love (in his mind at least).

Of course. I just feel that I have to clarify the nature of his love sometimes.

It doesn't exclude Lily. I just think that early on that hadn't been part of the process. And the important central part was both Snape's loyalty and his role in the prophecy.

You see she had "Spinner's End" and then "The Lightning-Struck Tower" and "The Flight of the Prince" to make him look evil in HBP and then "The Dark Lord Rising" and "The Seven Potters" in DH. She had kept him ambiguous enough until HBP that it wasn't too hard for her to lay it on a little thicker.

Of course Lily explained his motivation, but I think Jo added that later on.

I think it is entirely possible that is was added on as you say. I did see some signs as I said above, but again, it could have been the influence of fandom and my desire for it that made me see what I wanted to see.

So, I guess what I am curious about is, if JKR did add the feelings for Lily as an afterthought, why? Where did she come up with that? Was it fandom's desire to see that occur?

For me personally, I would hate if she had changed the story for her fans. I wanted to read her story not ours. But perhaps it could still have developed at a later date and JKR just didn't plot it out at first. It is a possibility I would rather be true than outside influence on her original storyline.

Nowhere did I mention the specifity of his feelings for Lily - I was only speaking of her as his motivation. Which in my opinion is a huge part of Snape's story, and when Jo says, "Snape's story has been there since PS was finished", I'm heavily inclined to believe she means Lily as well as prophecy.

Ah sorry, there are two lines of discussion on this topic; I thought you were responding to the other one...:lol:. I thought you were referring to her most recent comments. In anycase, Snape's dual motivation Love for Lily/Hate for James, was very important to his subplot. I am not sure what the point of the dicussion is about when JKR thought it up, but I'd imagine it was sometime around POA. That is when she had Snape start in with his "just like your father" speeches. It is a strange that Snape didn't go on about that before then, especially since Harry made the Quidditch team (youngest ever) and was breaking rules left and right in the first two books. So I figure JKR just didn't have the entire deal down until POA.

I have a feeling was in the plot from the beginning for some reason. The eyes and the sacrifice for Harry - all important things that she wove into the story - yes I think she knew all about Lily from the start. After all she was Harry's mother and Jo was affected by the death of her mother.

Snape was important because of his love for Lily. If he hadn't loved her Harry most likely wouldn't have succeeding in overthrowing Voldemort since he would have not been able to procure the sword without a GREAT deal of trouble - if at all.

I think any kid who can break into Hogwarts and escape with his life could manage to get the Sword from Dumbledore's office. :lol: As it was, he nearly drowned with Snape's plan. But I still believe that was to show the distinct nature of Snape's doe patronus.

Harry's father's patronus (issued by Harry with his dad's magical help) protected him and Sirius from death. Lily's doe would have had the same primary objective, but Snape's doe reflected his own feelings about Harry (as controled by Snape) and merely lead him to the pond and fled leaving Harry drowning. That matches Snape's general attitude and behavior toward Harry, imo, and was part of the symbolism of the scene.

Re breaking into the office and stealing the sword didn't Ginny get caught doing just that? Also once it had been nicked then how do you suppose they would keep it concealed from the DE's and find Harry to get it to him?

Re leaving the scene I think Snape saw that Ron had come on the scene and knew Harry would be OK. Heck Albus' portrait might have told him to let Ron return to the trio and rescue Ron for all we know to make amends etc and reunite with them without too much animosity.
All this as well as showing us the doe partonus. I wonder if Harry knew it had been his mother's patronus before she died or twigged that it could have been? He had thought he'd seen his father's at one stage remember or was that his animagus form he thought he saw. But I digress......

Snape didn't know ahead of time Harry would drown, no one did, including Dumbledore - remember, it was because he was wearing the locket. Harry thought the doe was familiar and I believe that was because he related it subconsciouly to the stag of his father (stag/doe). But he didn't fall into the realization because it wasn't his mum's patronus. The familiarity of his father's stag had come from his soul because his father was a part of him (as Dumbledore told him). Harry didn't know at that point that his dad had been a Stag animagus or that his patronus was a stag, but he didn't have any doubt that it was 'prongs'. If the doe had been his mum's he'd of known that too because she was also a part of him, aimo.

However Snape saw Ron come onto the scene and realised that Harry needed any help Ron - his best mate was there for him - if necessary....

BTW I thought Lupin had indicated that his father's animagus had been a stag -The Marauders and their map remember and either Lupin or Albus might have mentioned that his father's patronus was a stag. Especially when Harry discussed what he thought had happened down by the pool or water with the Dementors.

Now back to the topic at hand......

I think ot's logical to assume she means Snape's story, period. Not Snape's story's beginning, or Snape's story minus the romance part.

:lol:

There is little else! :D It was his motivation for everything, the confusing public persona and the brave spy no one saw until the end. I find it inconceivable Rowling would invent a backstpry of Snape as a spy, and write Snape with a special dislike of Harry, and have no reason in mind for this behavior!

So I figure JKR just didn't have the entire deal down until POA.
That was my thinking.

I can't believe she wouldn't either - it's not something Jo would do IMO. I think that by the time she got off the train she'd figured out the Lily/Sev angle as the reason for Snape changing sides and his treatment of Harry. After all Harry had to have had parents at some stage and Jo knew we'd all want to know something about their lives, subsequent deaths and Harry's survival and the part and reason Snape was connected to all this.

Of course Lily explained his motivation, but I think Jo added that later on.

Without her, he would have stayed on the Dark side. Jo has told us as much.

I really don't think that Jo (or any writer) would consider writing a character like Snape without considering their motivation from the very beginning. As you said Snape would have stayed on the Dark Side had it not been for Lily so really Snape/Lily was absolutely pivotal to the story.
Jo really had to know where she was going with the whole series before publishing the first book (Anyone who is a fan of the X-files will know the trouble writers can get into when "making it up as you go along") Not only that but she has said as much - that all the main story lines including those of Snape and Dumbledore were known to her when she finished PS/SS.

Bear in mind that we didn't even know about the prophecy until the fifth book, and that was pretty darn fundamental to the story and I'm pretty sure that Jo had that part of the story worked out right from the start. So just because it isn't spelt out in the first 2 or 3 books doesn't mean that the author didn't know where she was going with it.

The only part that is solely about Snape and fundamental to the story is his delivery of the prophecy, imo. But you can't take the story apart like that, because if Voldemort hadn't chosen Harry then the story wouldn't have been about Harry at all. That was the point that Dumbledore was making about prophecies and trying to trace things back to a single starting point. The choices poeple make can have such wide and diverse consequences that it is impossible to predict what will happen.
The prophecy only came to pass because Voldemort chose to act on it. So it comes down to so many things that had to happen in a particular way for a specific set of circumstances to be fulfilled.

I really don't see how you can say that Snape was only fundamental to the story becasue he relayed the prophecy to Voldemort. One might just as easily say that Ron wasn't fundamental to the story at all. But the fact remains that both characters are in the books regardless of how important they are to the plot. Other characters are included not solely because they are fundamental to the plot but also because they illustrate themes that the author wishes to emphasise. Harry is the main character, but Snape and Dumbledore (and various other characters) are used to make certain points, such as the redemptive power of love, and having the strength of character to turn your life around. A story isn't just about plot. And while the series does seem to be plot driven, Snape is probably the most fleshed out of the characters, and the reason why so many people enjoy the books.

However Snape saw Ron come onto the scene and realised that Harry needed any help Ron - his best mate was there for him - if necessary....

BTW I thought Lupin had indicated that his father's animagus had been a stag -The Marauders and their map remember and either Lupin or Albus might have mentioned that his father's patronus was a stag. Especially when Harry discussed what he thought had happened down by the pool or water with the Dementors.

Now back to the topic at hand......

Harry found out the next morning. Lupin told him his father's patronus was a stag and then Dumbledore told him the bit about his father being a part of him and 'prongs road again'... That evening, Harry didn't know what his father's animagus or patronus forms had been - Lupin got cut off before telling him in the shack.

Harry's father's patronus (issued by Harry with his dad's magical help) protected him and Sirius from death.It was Harry's patronus that saved Harry and Sirius from the dementors. James had nothing to do with it. Harry thouight he had seen his father when it was his own future self which is why Harry thought it was his father who had conjured the patronus when in fact it was Harry - just Harry - and his Patronuis took the form of a Stag which was representative of his father (though Harry didn't know that at the time)

Originally Posted by: CathyWeasley
I really don't think that Jo (or any writer) would consider writing a character like Snape without considering their motivation from the very beginning.

:tu::tu:So increadably right

Snapes story (all of his history) guides his actions from the very first moment we see him at the feast after the sorting ceromony. His scenes are underscored by his history.

IMO It would be impossible to write him without having an good idea of all the component parts of his history.

:lol:

There is little else! :D It was his motivation for everything, the confusing public persona and the brave spy no one saw until the end. I find it inconceivable Rowling would invent a backstpry of Snape as a spy, and write Snape with a special dislike of Harry, and have no reason in mind for this behavior!

Snape was based on JKR's old professor - he behaved in a negative fashion to everyone. We saw him from Harry's viewpoint, so we only saw the interaction with Harry and his friends, but the twins also complained about Snape in CoS - saying he was like that with all of his classes. It wasn't until POA Snape began the "just like your father" monologues. I think JKR knew things about Snape - but I am not certain she'd figured out the jealousy/particular hatred for James angle yet (hence, she hadn't gotten the unrequited love worked out yet), because we don't hear anything about that till POA. For the first two books, Snape seemed simply to dislike Harry because of his status as a hero.

And I respectfully disagree there was nothing else. There was the main thing Snape contributed to the main plot of the story: he turned the prophecy over to Voldemort. If he hadn't, Voldemort would not have targeted the Potters.

It was Harry's patronus that saved Harry and Sirius from the dementors. James had nothing to do with it. Harry thouight he had seen his father when it was his own future self which is why Harry thought it was his father who had conjured the patronus when in fact it was Harry - just Harry - and his Patronuis took the form of a Stag which was representative of his father (though Harry didn't know that at the time)


But he did know, Harry reached out to pet it and he said "Prongs". Later Lupin confirmed he was correct. Dumbledore is the one who said that Harry's father was a part of him and that "prongs road again last night" thus fostering within him the magic to create a patronus strong enough to ward off 100's of dementors - Harry hadn't even made a proper patronus up to that point. His best one was during Quidditch and it was not a proper patronus yet, it was a "strange form". (Although it did ward off Draco :lol:)

Here is what it says:

"You think the dead we have loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular patronus? Prongs roade again last night." [...] "so you did see your father last night, Harry...you found him inside yourself."

So I wouldn't say James had nothing to do with it, Dumbledore makes it sound like James had quite a lot to do with it. Harry had wondered if all four Maurader's had been on the grounds that evening, and Dumbledore confirmed he was correct (and all in animal form, lol).

Yes Lily was pivotal to the story and the story isn't just about plot - so well put CW. I think the Lily/Sev aspect wasn't just made up as she went along - it played a very important part in the make up of Sev's very complex character - IMO of course....

I think the Lily/Sev aspect wasn't just made up as she went along - it played a very important part in the make up of Sev's very complex character - IMO of course....
My immediate opinion of Snape after DH was that I thought Snape having one motivation for the good side reduced his complexity. :p

I think Sev is complex because he had the motivation of love for Lily to join the good side but had been on the bad side before even though he loved Lily and she told him she didn't like the company he was keeping etc. Plus the fact that while on the good side he was being horrible to Harrry, Neville, Hermione etc while being nice to Deatheater's children like Draco etc. You never saw him being horrible to idiots like Crabbe and Goyle and I bet they weren;t much better than Neville in class - Draco said he was unaware that one of them could even read for heavens sake. Of course he might have done all this to keep his cover with DE's and Voldemort I suppose.

Snape was based on JKR's old professor - he behaved in a negative fashion to everyone.
I beleive that Jo has gone on record saying that she only based one character on an actual person and that was Lockhart. She has said that Snape was inspired by a teacher she had (in terms of his demenaour and teaching style), but that is not the same as basing someone on a real person. So I reitterate that no writer would write a character as complex as Snape without any clue as to why he behaved that way. In my experience that is not how the writing process works.
You are quite right that Snape did not start the "just like your father monlogues" and that happens to be when Lupin - one of Harry's father's closest friends - started teaching at the school. IMO Snape's past came suddenly into focus and he was pre-empting a Marauder telling Harry a biased account of his father.
I would even go so far as to say that Snape probably suspected that Lupin would tell Harry how they used to "tease" Snape. Snape has a suspicious nature (for reasons I have talked about somewhere) and I think wouldn't put it past Lupin to mock him behind his back with the other students. Of course Lupin wouldn't do that, but Snape thinks he will and gets in their first. That is why IMO Snape stayed in the staff room just before Lupin's lesson - he wanted to show the kids - and Harry especially - who was boss.
Incidently I am not implying that this is good or even excusable behaviour. It just is what it is.

But he did know, Harry reached out to pet it and he said "Prongs". Later Lupin confirmed he was correct. Dumbledore is the one who said that Harry's father was a part of him and that "prongs road again last night" thus fostering within him the magic to create a patronus strong enough to ward off 100's of dementors - Harry hadn't even made a proper patronus up to that point. His best one was during Quidditch and it was not a proper patronus yet, it was a "strange form". (Although it did ward off Draco )

Here is what it says:

"You think the dead we have loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular patronus? Prongs roade again last night." [...] "so you did see your father last night, Harry...you found him inside yourself."

So I wouldn't say James had nothing to do with it, Dumbledore makes it sound like James had quite a lot to do with it. Harry had wondered if all four Maurader's had been on the grounds that evening, and Dumbledore confirmed he was correct (and all in animal form, lol).

I think Dumbledore is talking metaphorically. Prongs was there because Harry's patronus represents his father. James was there because Harry loves him and carries him in his heart. I don't think it was meant literally. As everyone says James is dead. Harry did conjur the patronus entirely on his own:

Hermione listened to what had just happened with her mouth open yet again.
"Did anyone see you?"
"Yes haven't you been listening? I saw me but I thought I was my Dad! It's OK!"
"Harry I can't beleive it - you conjured up a Patronus that drove away all those dementors! That's very, very advanced magic ..."
"I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "because I'd already done it ... Does that make sense?"

So Harry produced the patronus on his own, and he did it becasue he knew he could; all he needed was to beleive that he could do it.

In anycase, Snape's dual motivation Love for Lily/Hate for James, was very important to his subplot. I am not sure what the point of the dicussion is about when JKR thought it up, but I'd imagine it was sometime around POA. That is when she had Snape start in with his "just like your father" speeches. It is a strange that Snape didn't go on about that before then, especially since Harry made the Quidditch team (youngest ever) and was breaking rules left and right in the first two books. So I figure JKR just didn't have the entire deal down until POA.

The thing is, though, we have heard since PS that Snape hated James when they were at school together, no mention of his feelings towards Lily. Omission for a reason. We weren't told "Snape hated your parents", but that he "hated your father. Add to that, we are told as far back as PS also that Voldemort offered to lert Lily step aside, surely that was done with a later explanation in mind.

Without her, he would have stayed on the Dark side. Jo has told us as much.

BTW. I really don't think it was a great love. I think he was obsessed. And I would think that of anyone who held onto an unrequited love for 20 years, long after the person was dead, thus failing to move on and ever love anyone else.

His love for Lily was his motivation, but IMO this was not a great tragic romance. Snape was tragic, because of his own mistakes, but there was no romance (since Lily never felt the same way), just an unrequited love from a friendship that ended when they were 16.

:tu:
I agree with you. It is absolute that his love for Lily was his motivation, but it is a questionable whether it was a "great tragic romance." Some people think it is, and some people don't think it is. How I feel about Snape and his love for Lily is very conflicted. I can't help but be torn on how I feel about it. One part of me thinks it is sweet of Snape to turn to the Light side because of love while another part of me thinks Snape is a creep for not getting over it after 20 years.

I personally don't see it as a "great tragic romance." At least not in the "Mills and Boon" typew of romance.

Snape's story is certainly tragic and I personally don't beleive that if it hadn't been for James then Snape and Lily would have been a devoted couple.

However the term "romance" or "romantic" has different meanings. To some the term "romantic novel" conjurs up images of a "Mills and Boon", while to others it is a novel born out of the romantic movement of the late 18th and early 19th century in Europe. In that sense I think Snape's story could be viewed as "romantic" as it seems to illustrate many of the themes that these writers focused on and in that sense it also borders on the Gothic.
There is a thread that discusses Snape's story from these perspectives in the Pensieve. Here

I personally don't see it as a "great tragic romance." At least not in the "Mills and Boon" typew of romance.

Snape's story is certainly tragic and I personally don't beleive that if it hadn't been for James then Snape and Lily would have been a devoted couple.

However the term "romance" or "romantic" has different meanings. To some the term "romantic novel" conjurs up images of a "Mills and Boon", while to others it is a novel born out of the romantic movement of the late 18th and early 19th century in Europe. In that sense I think Snape's story could be viewed as "romantic" as it seems to illustrate many of the themes that these writers focused on and in that sense it also borders on the Gothic.
There is a thread that discusses Snape's story from these perspectives in the Pensieve. Here

I don't want to get off-topic, but I don't see anything of Snape that it is tragic or romantic, especially when it comes to Lily. :shrug:

Snape's unwavering, powerful love for Lily, which he carried into his grave, is easily the most romantic thing in the series. :love: The very hint that it might be the case, delivered by Albus in "The Seer Overheard", entangled me in the online fandom of a book series I might otherwise not have read more than once. ;) But that is of course a matter of personal taste.

I, however, do not apologize for calling it by that name. Whether we use the word romance in the sense of a story in an exotic locale and having exaggerated features of adventure, heroism, or mystery, or the version of being a story about romantic love...The story of Snape's love for Lily and what it inspired, qualifies on purely technical grounds. It may not be a romance many of us care for or are moved by - that's another matter.

Snape's guilt and (supposed) lack of a sterling character seem to me irrelevant in determining whether the story of his relationship with Lily is romantic. Good people, evil people, and people everywhere in between, can be romantic. (E. g., Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy, whose love after approaching two decades of marriage is still evident, even in the dire circumstances of DH).

It is indeed very tragic - his guilt, regret, and his love for Lily (probably only one of the very few people that showed Sev any kindness in his childhood apart from his mother who seemed unable to protect herself and her son from his bullying father) and the consequences of his actions. To me that is very tragic because it could have all been so different.

Snape's unwavering, powerful love for Lily, which he carried into his grave, is easily the most romantic thing in the series. :love: The very hint that it might be the case, delivered by Albus in "The Seer Overheard", entangled me in the online fandom of a book series I might otherwise not have read more than once. ;) But that is of course a matter of personal taste.

I couldn't agree more that is a matter of personal taste. I just can't see the romantic-ness. Are we supposed to?

Snape's unwavering, powerful love for Lily, which he carried into his grave, is easily the most romantic thing in the series. :love: The very hint that it might be the case, delivered by Albus in "The Seer Overheard", entangled me in the online fandom of a book series I might otherwise not have read more than once. ;) But that is of course a matter of personal taste.
I think it's definitely a matter of personal taste. Snape was not romantic in my opinion. I didn't find his "love" for Lily romantic because he did not respect her happiness and it felt more or less selfish on his part. I cannot find a love like that romantic and I nor do I think it is the most powerful romantic love in the series. Imo, it was a very tainted and flawed form of love that became Snape's only motive for turning for the good side.

I think it's definitely a matter of personal taste. Snape was not romantic in my opinion. I didn't find his "love" for Lily romantic because he did not respect her happiness and it felt more or less selfish on his part. I cannot find a love like that romantic and I nor do I think it is the most powerful romantic love in the series. Imo, it was a very tainted and flawed form of love that became Snape's only motive for turning for the good side.

I agree, I never saw Snape as really romantic at all. He never once thought about what Lily thought, and the whole point of being in love with someone IMO is that you try to make them happy. Snape was always thinking of himself when he was with Lily, and never listened to her worries. His love was never true, because he clearly didn't care for her enough to listen to her. He was more occupied with being a Death Eater; Lily had taken the backseat. He shouldn't have been so surprised when she ended his friendship. It was his fault he never noticed that she didn't return his feelings for her.

I agree, I never saw Snape as really romantic at all. He never once thought about what Lily thought, and the whole point of being in love with someone IMO is that you try to make them happy. Snape was always thinking of himself when he was with Lily, and never listened to her worries. His love was never true, because he clearly didn't care for her enough to listen to her.
:agree: I don't think JKR meant for it to be romantic. I think she wanted to show us that even a bad man had the potential to love deeply (however flawed that love was) and she also needed a motive for Snape to change sides, because apparently it wasn't in his character to have switched for any other reason.

He never paid attention to what was troubling her, even though she spelled it out for him on more than one occasion. Besides, what man spends 20 years obsessed with a woman he had a crush on at age 16. It's not romantic. Actually, if you ask me, it's very unhealthy and kind of creepy.

And as I said before, I prefer my romantic heroes to not be abusive and cruel to children, nor to carry a 20-year vendetta beyond grave, actually passing it on to the orphan son of the man he hated, especially since he was partly culpable for that boy being an orphan in the first place.

Snape's story is tragic, but not romantic.

He never paid attention to what was troubling her, even though she spelled it out for him on more than one occasion. Besides, what man spends 20 years obsessed with a woman he had a crush on at age 16. It's not romantic. Actually, if you ask me, it's very unhealthy and kind of creepy.
:agree: Very creepy. He didn't even seem that interested in her when she was alive, because he kept avoiding her warnings, yet after she dies he is crazy for her. I really, really, never thought Snape had any sense of love at all.
Snape's story is tragic, but not romantic.
Hmm... is it tragic if it is self-inflicted? It would have been tragic if Snape and Lily had a budding romance (a real one), and then she died. But the feelings only went one way- Snape should have realized Lily didn't return them. I almost find it pathetic, and not a tragedy.

Hmm... is it tragic if it is self-inflicted?
That's why I don't find it as tragic as some others might: I think Snape was perfectly capable of moving on, forgiving, and living a life full of happiness, but he chose not to. That's why I can't respect his character. JKR really highlights choice in the Harry Potter series, especially in the case of Snape. That's why I think he could have chosen to move on and live his life to the fullest, but he didn't. He'd rather live in the past then look to the future. This was his tragedy imo.

It would have been tragic if Snape and Lily had a budding romance (a real one), and then she died. But the feelings only went one way- Snape should have realized Lily didn't return them. I almost find it pathetic, and not a tragedy.
I find it mostly pathetic too. (jmo of course!)

I want to remind everyone of the rules against character bashing. Please make it clear that you are expressing your opinion.

Hmm... is it tragic if it is self-inflicted? It would have been tragic if Snape and Lily had a budding romance (a real one), and then she died. But the feelings only went one way- Snape should have realized Lily didn't return them. I almost find it pathetic, and not a tragedy.In the Classical Greek sense a tragedy typically finds the protagonist bringing on his doom, usually from hubris. Snape did bring this upon himself. And it was because he was so caught up in his own interests (i.e. hubris) that he failed to notice Lily's concerns. Nor did he use his intelligence to recognize the dangers of the dark path he was going down (again hubris).

So it was tragic in the classical sense. And it was tragic in the modern sense, since he had so much promise in his talent, on top of the fact that he also drove Lily away. That was really what the HBP Potions Book was all about. It demonstrated what native skill Snape had, and it also showed his drift from relatively harmless hexes to a deadly one.

Snape brought his own personal hell upon himself. Still, he was too deeply horrible (to quote JKR) a person to seem romantic, rather he is quite pitiable.

I beleive that Jo has gone on record saying that she only based one character on an actual person and that was Lockhart. She has said that Snape was inspired by a teacher she had (in terms of his demenaour and teaching style), but that is not the same as basing someone on a real person. So I reitterate that no writer would write a character as complex as Snape without any clue as to why he behaved that way. In my experience that is not how the writing process works.
You are quite right that Snape did not start the "just like your father monlogues" and that happens to be when Lupin - one of Harry's father's closest friends - started teaching at the school. IMO Snape's past came suddenly into focus and he was pre-empting a Marauder telling Harry a biased account of his father.

I would even go so far as to say that Snape probably suspected that Lupin would tell Harry how they used to "tease" Snape. Snape has a suspicious nature (for reasons I have talked about somewhere) and I think wouldn't put it past Lupin to mock him behind his back with the other students. Of course Lupin wouldn't do that, but Snape thinks he will and gets in their first. That is why IMO Snape stayed in the staff room just before Lupin's lesson - he wanted to show the kids - and Harry especially - who was boss.
Incidently I am not implying that this is good or even excusable behaviour. It just is what it is.

I think your interpretation is correct in a sense, but it leaves out that part about Snape loathing Harry because he represented Lily's preference for another man. So the jealousy element should have been present in Snape's character prior to POA and it seems that the "just like your father" monologues would be triggered when Harry did things that reminded Snape of James. In Ps/SS and Cos, Harry did many things that would remind Snape of James. He became a Quidditch star early on, broke rules in a catastrophic way and from Snape's point of view, Dumbledore was letting him get away rule breaking and pranks nearly scot free (like arriving via the flying car).

Too, the first time Snape made a "just like your father" comment, he knew that Snape had heard the tale about him from Dumbledore, not Lupin. I am not saying that in a storyline sense it couldn't be worked out to make sense (as you have done above) - I just mean that from an analysis point of view, Snape would have logically been triggered into the monologues much sooner if JKR had it all figured out because Lupin might trigger a keen rememberance of the old hex battles between Snape and the Marauders, but that was only half the problem. The more potent problem for Snape in relation to James was Potter's relationship with Lily - and that problem Snape had from the beginning. So that is why it seems that JKR hadn't quite worked out that aspect of the storyline yet.

I think Dumbledore is talking metaphorically. Prongs was there because Harry's patronus represents his father. James was there because Harry loves him and carries him in his heart. I don't think it was meant literally. As everyone says James is dead. Harry did conjur the patronus entirely on his own:

Hermione listened to what had just happened with her mouth open yet again.
"Did anyone see you?"
"Yes haven't you been listening? I saw me but I thought I was my Dad! It's OK!"
"Harry I can't beleive it - you conjured up a Patronus that drove away all those dementors! That's very, very advanced magic ..."
"I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "because I'd already done it ... Does that make sense?"

So Harry produced the patronus on his own, and he did it becasue he knew he could; all he needed was to beleive that he could do it.

Yes, I agree Harry did it because he believed that he could - the second time - because he'd already seen himself do it the first time. Dumbledore was not speaking metaphorically when he said "why else would you conjure that particular patronus?" It is true, Harry didn't know his father's patronus had been a stag. And also when Dumbledore said, "he makes himself known to you in your greatest time of need" (paraphrase) he wasn't speaking metaphorically, he was speaking about magic. He didn't say that Harry found his father within himself when he had a great need, he said his father made himself known so Harry could find him when he had a great need.

The time turner makes it a little difficult to explain. But when Harry saw himself conjuring the Patronus - the person he was watching (himself) was already filled with his father's presence. That is why he knew he could do it the second time. But that had actually already occurred and Harry knew he could do it, but he didn't know why - he just went on faith. The reason why was because his father had made his presence known so harry could find James inside of himself in a magical sense. There was magic invovled that was of an "other world" nature because Harry could not conjure a patronus of that magnitude at that time - but with the helping hand of his father - a far more advanced magician, he could. Imo, that is what Dumbledore was telling him - and in fact what Harry already knew. Otherwise it would make no sense for Harry to reach out to the patronus and say "Prongs". I hope that makes sense, the time turner convolutes things a bit. :lol:.

One-way feelings can be very romantic. It may eb difficult to believe if one hasn't experienced or witnessed it personally, but it's true.

I don't think there's "a whole point" of romance or love. It's different for everyone, and it's intimate. An outsider can't just point at someone ad say, you're not really in love because you don't fit these and those criteria which are the whole point of love. That would be unfair and arrogant, in my opinion. I believe a person is as much in love as they feel they are, and I believe this should be respected. It's not the same for everyone.

One-way feelings can be very romantic. It may eb difficult to believe if one hasn't experienced or witnessed it personally, but it's true.
I've had one-way feelings, but in retrospect, those feelings were ill-advised since there was no future for them. I've always regretted the wasted emotional energy and time I invested in them. There's one thing to have those feelings and hope that things will change and make the feelings mutual, and it is another to know that those feelings can never be reciprocated. In Snape's case, there was no hope for him after Lily married, and especially after she died.

But this doesn't cancel out the romance for every reader. Some readers can and will see it as romantic, while others won't. It does depend on personal experience, in my opinion, among other things. I personally saw no sparks or flirtation in the Lily/James interaction in Snape's Worst Memory - I though James was horrible, and thought of a few things I'd have said to him that Lily didn't. I personally cannot stand arrogance in men, and that determines my attitude towards this scene. A large portion of our attitude towards the characters and storylines in the books depend on personal values and experiences, in my opinion. That's why if a reader does see Snape's story as romantic or tragic or both, then it's their prerogative to do so. It doesn't make them wrong, if it's a matter of perspective, experience or taste.

Let's back up a little. I was appalled at how James behaved in that scene, but I could also see the byplay between James and Lily. And let's back up a little more. I not only understand the psychology of an abused child, since I was one, but I was also bullied repeatedly in school. That still doesn't excuse Snape in my eyes, even if I completely understand what he might have experienced. In fact, by the time I was in my twenties, I pitied, not hated, the people who had bullied me. They seemed so pathetic in retrospect.

I don't champion any characters besides Harry and Neville, so I think I approach this with a neutral mindset (no particular attachment for any of the adults), with perhaps some maternal protectiveness for the kids. I think Snape was a interesting and complex character, but he was not a personally appealing one. And he wasn't written to be one. He carried a torch for Lily long after she married and even longer after she was dead. But despite that torch he treated her orphan son miserably. He even transferred his hatred for the dead father onto the orphaned son, which I always found inexcusable considering his culpability.

The reason why I don't find his love for Lily romantic is how obsessive it appears. His association with Lily ended when they were 16. And yet 20 years later he was still in love. He had never permitted himself any other relationships and had never moved on. And he remained embittered because of it.

By the time I was in my thirties I couldn't even remember the name of some of the boys I had crushes on in my teens, and I suspect that would be true for most people. Of course major crushes might be remembered, but certainly not yearned for after all those years.

WWB - I completely disagree. We are repeatedly told that magic cannot bring back the dead. Everybodies parents' are alive in them and their greatest attributes, such as courage in James's case, become plain in us when we are most in need. That's genetics. Harry doesn't just look like James.
JKR has said that throughout the series magic is a metaphor.
The reason why Harry reaches out and says "Prongs", is because he realises the patronus represents his father - Prongs - and why JAmes had that particular nickname - becasue he was a stag animagus. The form of a patronus represents whoever makes us happy inside - it chases away depression - ie the dementors.
Sorry this is way off topic! :whistle:


Snape would have logically been triggered into the monologues much sooner if JKR had it all figured out because Lupin might trigger a keen rememberance of the old hex battles between Snape and the Marauders, but that was only half the problem. The more potent problem for Snape in relation to James was Potter's relationship with Lily - and that problem Snape had from the beginning. So that is why it seems that JKR hadn't quite worked out that aspect of the storyline yet.
I completely disagree. Apart from the fact that you are suggesting that Jo is a liar there is the simple process of writing a seven book series and not wanting to introduce to many factors at once, as that would be far too confusing. PoA is the book in which Jo choose to focus on James as Harry's father, and to reveal his relationships with the marauders and with Snape. There was no point in Snape referring to Harry's father before then as it was unneccesary to the earlier plots.
Although Snape's biggest problem was James's relationship with Lily Snape NEVER mentions that. He never even mentions Lily's name - a factor which many fans - myself included considered a clue. This is because it is all too painful for Snape - too raw. When Lupin arrives Snape is reminded of his previous reason to hate James which was the bullying when he was at Hogwarts. It also coincides with Sirius's escape from Azkaban which also brings back painful memories and feelings for Snape.
If it hadn't been for Lupin's presence at the school and Black's escape, I don't think Snape would have mentioned Harry's father at all. It was not something that Snape wanted to dwell on - being bullied by James, and certainly not something he wanted Harry to know about.

ETA:so I think I approach this with a neutral mindset
I would certainly say that yours are the most objective posts on the Snape threads CBW :)

I personally think that Snape didn't get over Lily precisely because he felt responsible for her death.
IF Lily hadn't been targetted and had produced numerous Harry siblings, I think that Snape would have remained a death eater and possibly found someone else (probably with red hair :scared: ) He would have become totally immersed in the DE ideology and possibly ended up in Azkaban (though possibly not - he was a pretty powerful wizard) All MVHO

IF Snape had caused the death of someone else he loved - perhaps his mother - it would probably have affected him in the same way. So I think it was the guilt he couldn't recover from rather than the love.

IF Snape had caused the death of someone else he loved - perhaps his mother - it would probably have affected him in the same way. So I think it was the guilt he couldn't recover from rather than the love.
That seems logical. I feel sorry for him. But I'll never like him.

Let's back up a little. I was appalled at how James behaved in that scene, but I could also see the byplay between James and Lily. And let's back up a little more. I not only understand the psychology of an abused child, since I was one, but I was also bullied repeatedly in school. That still doesn't excuse Snape in my eyes, even if I completely understand what he might have experienced. In fact, by the time I was in my twenties, I pitied, not hated, the people who had bullied me. They seemed so pathetic in retrospect.

But just because you could see the byplay between James and Lily, it doesn't follow that everyone else can, or that they should. Analogically, just because I can see romance in Snape's love for Lily, doesn't mean I expect you or anyone else to. I was just expressing my own personal view of this love; and my own personal view of the James and Lily interaction in Snape's Worst Memory. I see no reason to back up here.

The reason why I don't find his love for Lily romantic is how obsessive it appears. His association with Lily ended when they were 16. And yet 20 years later he was still in love. He had never permitted himself any other relationships and had never moved on. And he remained embittered because of it.

That's all true. But I don't really see how it excludes romance. For em it doesn't. Maybe I understand romance and romantic differently. (for example, I do find The Crow by Poe romantic.)

By the time I was in my thirties I couldn't even remember the name of some of the boys I had crushes on in my teens, and I suspect that would be true for most people. Of course major crushes might be remembered, but certainly not yearned for after all those years.

Not everyone is the same. And Snape certainly doesn't fall in the average category of most people - well, he's fictional, so he shouldn't fall anywhere - my point is, there are always exceptions.

I've had one-way feelings, but in retrospect, those feelings were ill-advised since there was no future for them. I've always regretted the wasted emotional energy and time I invested in them. There's one thing to have those feelings and hope that things will change and make the feelings mutual, and it is another to know that those feelings can never be reciprocated. In Snape's case, there was no hope for him after Lily married, and especially after she died.

Well, I don't have a personal experience of falling madly in love or having major crushes (I've obviously missed out on a lot LOL) but from what I can understand of such feelings, IMO, they cannot be helped. I don't think that I can for example switch off a feeling that rises in my heart, just because I know it will never fulfilled.

I think that's the main point IMO. Such emotions IMO cannot be guided or intentional. If they are, then I don't think they can be called love. And I also believe that feelings like these come in spite of us and not by choice. Love is also IMO extremely powerful, because we cannot control it, like desire, anger or even rage. While most of the other emotions cool off with time, I think love if it is felt deeply, cannot be erased by time. It matures, increases, encompasses those who love completely, in all their actions and their life and being IMO.

I think that's what happened with Snape too IMO.

I think that's the main point IMO. Such emotions IMO cannot be guided or intentional. If they are, then I don't think they can be called love. And I also believe that feelings like these come in spite of us and not by choice. Love is also IMO extremely powerful, because we cannot control it, like desire, anger or even rage. While most of the other emotions cool off with time, I think love if it is felt deeply, cannot be erased by time. It matures, increases, encompasses those who love completely, in all their actions and their life and being IMO.People do eventually move on. They don't deliberately try to stop feeling the emotions, but they fade as life continues.

People do eventually move on. They don't deliberately try to stop feeling the emotions, but they fade as life continues.

In the majority of cases this is true but it cannot be applied to every single human being.

People do eventually move on. They don't deliberately try to stop feeling the emotions, but they fade as life continues.

I agree, Snape was a special case because he continued to reinforce his emotions rather than allow them to fade. On top of that, Snape didn't just have enduring love for Lily, he had an equal enduring jealousy and loathing for James, imo. The dual emotions overcame him as an individual from a character analysis point of view, but he refused to attempt to let either go, imo. I think if Snape had stopped to think about how much impact James Potter was having on his life, he might have tried to help himself, but he only thought in terms of Lily, ignoring the fact that he was allowing James to control his emotions as much as he allowed Lily's to do so, imo.

People do eventually move on.

Sometimes, if they can; yes.

They don't deliberately try to stop feeling the emotions, but they fade as life continues

I don't think Snape deliberately tried to hold on to his love, seeing the trouble he had to go through for the rest of his life for that love IMO. That's why I think he could not stop loving Lily.

Yes but Snape's emotions for James were collateral to his emotions for Lily. He didn't give either up. I think he could have given up his hatred and jealousy a lot easier than his emotions for Lily. But the emotions fed into one another and Snape apparently enjoyed that or he would have at at least stopped the destructive emotions he had for James, imo.

But Snape IMO did; when he gave the memories of his faults, his wrongs and his humiliation, his remorse and his repentence and his love to James's son IMO. He gave up his life too, for James's son. If he hated James, he would not have been able to do so IMO.

He also calls Lily as Lily Potter, another thing that showed me he accepted Lily's love for James IMO.

But Snape IMO did; when he gave the memories of his faults, his wrongs and his humiliation, his remorse and his repentence and his love to James's son IMO. He gave up his life too, for James's son. If he hated James, he would not have been able to do so IMO.

He also calls Lily as Lily Potter, another thing that showed me he accepted Lily's love for James IMO.

Actually an old theory of mine was that Snape found respect for James in the end and everyone put it down as crazy :lol:. But the number one thing that everyone reminded me of was that Snape loathed Harry till his death, and that was because he loathed James until his death as well. So I had to admit that I was wrong.

Imo, Snape gave Harry the memories to gain his trust and the fact that the memories made James look better and Snape look worse was part of the means of Snape gaining Harry's trust. I do not feel that there was any element of remorse or repentance invovled - we heard nothing like that in any of the memories and that information would have been included in the memories if Snape actually felt that way, imo.

I do not understand what you mean by Snape sacrificed himself for Harry. Snape didn't sacrifice himself at all. He did not wish to die, he begged Voldemort to let him go and fetch Harry and even lifted his wand at Voldemort before believing the dark lord was giving him a reprieve. Then he was killed by Nagini. Snape did not plan for that to happen. Also, Snape thought Harry was going to die, so it would have been a useless sacrifice if he had planned it, but he didn't according to canon, imo.

One could say that Snape sacrificed himself for the cause because he knew all along that he could be killed by Voldemort and worked for Dumbledore anyway. But Snape didn't have a particular desire to die for the cause, imo. Those who died for Harry actually had him in their hearts and moved forward with the combined desire to act on behalf of the cause and for Harry directly because they knew the burden that was upon him - or at least a portion of it as the chosen one.

Snape's motivation was his emotions for Lily; that was his ongoing reason as shown by his nicking her photo after all of his conversations with a living Dumbledore in the memories were finished, imo. We don't have canon that indicates Snape felt if he died in the line of duty it would be in Lily's honor - but perhaps he felt that way. :)

There's one thing to have those feelings and hope that things will change and make the feelings mutual, and it is another to know that those feelings can never be reciprocated. In Snape's case, there was no hope for him after Lily married, and especially after she died.

But to me, that is precisely what makes it romantic. The things you talk about, the likelihood of you (Snape, in his case) getting anything out of such feelings, these are practical and rational considerations. The very antithesis of romance. :)

In fact, Snape got less than nothing, in practical terms, from his devotion to a dead woman.

One-way feelings can be very romantic. It may eb difficult to believe if one hasn't experienced or witnessed it personally, but it's true.
Of course it can be romantic. It's just that Snape's love didn't seem romantic to me. I believe that to truly love a person, you need to know and more importantly, understand them. Snape wasn't able to do that with Lily, IMO.

An outsider can't just point at someone ad say, you're not really in love because you don't fit these and those criteria which are the whole point of love. That would be unfair and arrogant, in my opinion. I believe a person is as much in love as they feel they are, and I believe this should be respected. It's not the same for everyone.
I agree about that. Falling in love is involuntary and mostly irrational, IMO. It's just that I see a difference between, say, Snape falling in love with Lily at first sight, merely because she's magical and pretty, and Harry developing romantic feelings for Ginny after having known her for so long as a friend.

I completely disagree. Apart from the fact that you are suggesting that Jo is a liar there is the simple process of writing a seven book series and not wanting to introduce to many factors at once, as that would be far too confusing. PoA is the book in which Jo choose to focus on James as Harry's father, and to reveal his relationships with the marauders and with Snape. There was no point in Snape referring to Harry's father before then as it was unneccesary to the earlier plots.
But, there is. We're told as early as PS of the rivalry between James and Snape, and about how it is the reason for Snape's hatred of Harry. There are no hints whatsoever that this might not be the whole truth. No hesitation on Dumbledore's part, for one thing. Dumbledore doesn't even pause to think before saying it. And, it works perfectly well. And then, Snape is almost completely sidelined in CoS, and is not part of the plot at all. He's just there as part of the scenery. Then, in PoA, we see Snape's side of the story, and it turns out that Snape didn't think James saved his life at all. That's a rather abrupt change, IMO, and it is as if Snape was suddenly granted a larger role, because he was popular.

I do believe Jo's comments about Snape's storyline being always there, but I'm more inclined to think that it was one of the possibilities, rather than an integral, unavoidable part of the plot. If it had been, there would have been more hints in the earlier books for one thing, and Snape would have been around more in CoS.

I think that it was in PoA that Snape was decided to have a bigger role and a backstory. But even then, IMO Jo keeps the option of not having the Snape-Lily relationship, IMO, by focussing on the Marauder plot so much.

I think that it's inevitable that plot lines change as needed, especially when its such a long series. New ideas that are introduced in later books might sometimes raise questions regarding events and ideas in older books.

IF Lily hadn't been targetted and had produced numerous Harry siblings, I think that Snape would have remained a death eater and possibly found someone else (probably with red hair :scared: ) He would have become totally immersed in the DE ideology and possibly ended up in Azkaban (though possibly not - he was a pretty powerful wizard) All MVHO
I don't think I agree. Jo told us that Snape thought Lily would find him impressive if he became a powerful Death Eater. I think that Snape was hoping that Lily would come back to him once he became powerful. I don't think he realized that Lily was truly out of his reach. IMO He was too obsessively in love with Lily to ever let go of her.

I was looking at Snape's lecture to Harry during the first Occlumency lesson.
Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!' said Snape savagely. 'Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!'
That makes me wonder, did Snape ever regret falling in love with Lily? It seems to me that he lost everything he held dear, like his position as a DE, his freedom from society's rules, because he was weak enough to fall in love with Lily. Thoughts on this?

It's not all that unusual for people who have lost a loved one not ever getting involved again with other people - love-wise. I can name at least half a dozen of both sexes who I know that fit in that category and I must admit the males outnumber the females 3-1. so Snape was not that unusual really.

However I digress...

Sev was indeed rather tragic - his unrequieted love who was betrayed by a supposed friend then and killed partly due to him divulging part of a prophecy to Voldemort. then followed the guilt and realisation (like Regulus) that the Dark Side were not what they thought. IE both saw the light and both died trying to rectify their errors in joining it - Regulus in the cave and Sev in the Shrieking Shack - both by the hand of Voldemort's orders - thus indirectly by Voldemort. both had been young and impresionable at the time of joining the DE's. Draco could almost be included in this scenario but he managed to live because of his mother's love.

I think Lily was part of the plot before Jo got off the train.

All very tragic IMO. It still makes me want to cry when I think about it. The possibilities of what could have been..

Actually an old theory of mine was that Snape found respect for James in the end and everyone put it down as crazy :lol:. But the number one thing that everyone reminded me of was that Snape loathed Harry till his death, and that was because he loathed James until his death as well. So I had to admit that I was wrong.

Respect IMO has to be commanded, to be earned. I think in Snape's opinion, James did not command that respect. And IMO that's not Snape's fault. Perhaps it was not James's fault either :shrug:, but James just could not by his actions and character command respect from Snape IMO.

But since I think Snape repented for the days he spent as a death eater and felt remorse for the actions he committed as one; I also think James came under that repentence and remorse.

I do not understand what you mean by Snape sacrificed himself for Harry. Snape didn't sacrifice himself at all. He did not wish to die, he begged Voldemort to let him go and fetch Harry and even lifted his wand at Voldemort before believing the dark lord was giving him a reprieve. Then he was killed by Nagini. Snape did not plan for that to happen. Also, Snape thought Harry was going to die, so it would have been a useless sacrifice if he had planned it, but he didn't according to canon, imo.

Well I believe that Snape died either knowingly or unknowingly for Harry's sake, because of the Elder wand. That in my eyes is a sacrifice for Harry to win the war against Voldemort IMO.

Respect IMO has to be commanded, to be earned. I think in Snape's opinion, James did not command that respect. And IMO that's not Snape's fault. Perhaps it was not James's fault either :shrug:, but James just could not by his actions and character command respect from Snape IMO.

I only meant respect for him as a human being, not as in looking up to him. James had respect for Snape as a human being at 15. (POA)

But since I think Snape repented for the days he spent as a death eater and felt remorse for the actions he committed as one; I also think James came under that repentence and remorse.

That is the question...I still don't have an answer for myself, but I respect your view.

Well I believe that Snape died either knowingly or unknowingly for Harry's sake, because of the Elder wand. That in my eyes is a sacrifice for Harry to win the war against Voldemort IMO.

Ah I see what you mean. He was sacrificed by Dumbledore. But I think the purpose was to bring Voldemort down; Dumbledore was planning to sacrifice Harry too if necessary.

The thing is, for Snape, his motivation was Lily and he knew all along there was a chance he might die due to his spying. So maybe he felt that it was worth it to die in order to honor Lily's sacrifice.

James had respect for Snape as a human being at 15. (POA)

I'm curious - could you quote the cannon referance or give me an idea about where to find it?

I'm curious - could you quote the cannon referance or give me an idea about where to find it?

It does not exist. :)

He refers to the statement by Lupin, that James saved Sev from Werewolf!Lupin. But we have no idea why. It is also possible that he acted out of concern for the possible consequences of the "prank" to Sirius and Remus.

*reads last few posts*

*checks title of thread*

*realizes this is not actually James thread which is conveniently located here: James Potter: Character Analysis v.3 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=113276)*

It does not exist. :)

He refers to the statement by Lupin, that James saved Sev from Werewolf!Lupin. But we have no idea why. It is also possible that he acted out of concern for the possible consequences of the "prank" to Sirius and Remus.

I will answer in James' thread. :)

I do believe Jo's comments about Snape's storyline being always there, but I'm more inclined to think that it was one of the possibilities, rather than an integral, unavoidable part of the plot. If it had been, there would have been more hints in the earlier books for one thing, and Snape would have been around more in CoS.
Why do there have to be more hints in the earlier books? There is absolutely nothing - nothing about the prophecy in any of the books before OotP yet I am fairly certain that Jo had that particualr storyline worked out.
I don't understand why Jo's statement cannot be just accepted as it is. She has stated that the Snape storyline was there from pretty much from the beginning. She didn't put any qualifiers on that. Just because she knew that Snape is important when writing CoS doesn't mean that she had to give him a big role in that book. It just wasn't necessary. I also do not think that when writing a seven book series you would have "plot options" That is just not the way people write, and given what Jo has said about her plotting I certainly don't think that is the way Jo writes. I really don't understand why people are having such a hard time accepting that Jo planned it this way all along.

I agree about that. Falling in love is involuntary and mostly irrational, IMO. It's just that I see a difference between, say, Snape falling in love with Lily at first sight, merely because she's magical and pretty, and Harry developing romantic feelings for Ginny after having known her for so long as a friend.

I'm not sure we can say for certainty, based on the text, that Snape fell in love with Lily at first sight ... he was only nine. :whistle:

There are big differences between the Snape/Lily relationship and Harry/Ginny, to be sure ... Harry/Ginny is a reciprocal romance and they are both happy, psychologically well adjusted people, whereas the Snape/Lily dynamic is extremely angsty and troubled (from Snape's POV and because of the sort of person he is). I will just remark that personally I thought Harry's romantic feelings for Ginny happened in a great big rush :whistle: (absolutely nothing wrong with that, by the way, I know what it's like to be hit by instant attraction) and also seemed very physical to me (his chest monster, anyone? ;) ) But that discussion is for the Harry/Ginny thread. ;)

From my reading of the text, Snape/Lily was a friendship that developed into romantic feelings (from Snape's POV).

I was looking at Snape's lecture to Harry during the first Occlumency lesson.
Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!' said Snape savagely. 'Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!'
That makes me wonder, did Snape ever regret falling in love with Lily? It seems to me that he lost everything he held dear, like his position as a DE, his freedom from society's rules, because he was weak enough to fall in love with Lily. Thoughts on this?

I think he regretted losing Lily, period. I think all his Death Eater ambition died on the night that she was murdered. He told Dumbledore he wished he were dead, so great was his despair and agony. And Dumbledore told him bluntly, what good would that do? The way forward for Severus to undo some of the damage he had done was clear.

In the end, losing Lily meant more to him than all the DE rubbish. It was the thing that turned him around -- away from the Dark path and working for the good.

IMO.

I think he regretted losing Lily, period. I think all his Death Eater ambition died on the night that she was murdered. He told Dumbledore he wished he were dead, so great was his despair and agony. And Dumbledore told him bluntly, what good would that do? The way forward for Severus to undo some of the damage he had done was clear.

In the end, losing Lily meant more to him than all the DE rubbish. It was the thing that turned him around -- away from the Dark path and working for the good.

IMO.
If he regretted losing her, why didn't he make more of an effort to keep her? I agree that he was incredibly saddened and did feel regret, but I simply cannot sympathize at all with him Because he let Lily slip away. He clearly didn't appreciate that he was lucky to have her for a friend, otherwise he would have made an effort to keep her as a friend and wouldn't have been so crushed when she left him. I have no sympathy at all for Snape. All IMO, though. :)

If he regretted losing her, why didn't he make more of an effort to keep her?

Well, I was talking of agonised 21 year old Snape, not the 15 year old DE-in-training who let Lily slip away from him.

I agree that he was incredibly saddened and idd feel regret, but I simply cannot sympathize at all with him Because he let Lily slip away. He clearly didn't appreciate that he was lucky to have her for a friend, otherwise he would have made an effort to keep her as a friend and wouldn't have been so crushed when she left him. I have no sympathy at all for Snape. All IMO, though. :)

If Snape's inability to hang onto a valuable friendship at the age of 15 was the sum total of what we are told in canon about him, I might possibly agree ... although I doubt it. :)

My own sympathy for the character (and yes, I think most of his tragedy was self-inflicted) comes from the fact that canon presents us with a person who was never really loved and possibly didn't know how to love because of that. I find that tragic in real life and I find it tragic in literature.

My own sympathy for the character (and yes, I think most of his tragedy was self-inflicted) comes from the fact that canon presents us with a person who was never really loved and possibly didn't know how to love because of that. I find that tragic in real life and I find it tragic in literature.
It's getting a little off topic of Lily and Snape, but I compare him to Harry. Harry doesn't need our pity. He was never loved once in his childhood (the love he got when he was one didn't influence him), but he turned out all right, didn;t he? :D I personally think that Snape made his own life miserable. No one forced him to join the Death Eaters, or to treat Lily badly when he wasn't ignoring her. I think that if he had truly loved Lily that motive alone would have been good enough itself to make him a good person. Harry could love, Snape couldn't. It came back to bite him when Lily left him and his life became miserable.

It annoys me, though, that Snape was so bothered and upset when Lily ended their friendship, yet he never seemed to care that much for her when they were at Hogwarts together. He was with his Death Eater friends more than her, and completely ignored her. It bugs me. :shrug:

It's getting a little off topic of Lily and Snape, but I compare him to Harry. Harry doesn't need our pity. He was never loved once in his childhood (the love he got when he was one didn't influence him), but he turned out all right, didn;t he? :D

[off-topic]I think that any child in Harry's situation -- orphaned as a baby and left to the mercies of the abusive Dursleys :( -- needs and deserves our pity. :) [/off-topic]

ev was indeed rather tragic - his unrequieted love who was betrayed by a supposed friend
He wasn't betrayed. A friendship that had been declining for some time finally ended. And that decline was due to Snape's bigotry and drift to the Dark Arts and the Jr. DEs.

the 15 year old DE-in-training who let Lily slip away from him.
Thanks for that. It was indeed Snape who let Lily slip away. His mistakes, his failings.
My own sympathy for the character (and yes, I think most of his tragedy was self-inflicted) comes from the fact that canon presents us with a person who was never really loved and possibly didn't know how to love because of that. I find that tragic in real life and I find it tragic in literature.That's exactly how I see it too.

I said Lily was betrayed by a fiend - oops! Freudian slip I meant friend. She was Sev's unrequieted love who was betrayed by supposed friend - Peter and then killed by fiend (not a freudian slip) - Voldemort. I never said Sev was betrayed (oh unless you count Voldemort who would betray anyone to achieve his ends if neccesary - even Bellatrix IMO).

All very tragic in both real life and literature IMO

Much better. I guess I get worked up about the idea that it was all Lily's fault. :blush: Thanks for the correction. It makes more sense.

More than Lily's fault I think she did not handle the break up better IMO. She was effectively putting an end to a friendship that she too, valued for a long time, seeing that they were friends for more than 5 years IMO.

Perhaps one of several the reasons was due to peer pressure as well as her own moral stance. If I were Lily I would have taken him aside and explained fully why I was reluctantly ending the friendship and said to Sev that if he really valued their friendship he should think about what he was doing and giving him a chance to think about it - like a week or two. I'd also explain how hurt I was by being called a mudblood and that I thought that James and Sirius were arrogant Toe- Rags which Lily thought at the time and that Sev should just not have anything to do with them - ignore them and hopefully they would do the same. That's what I think Lily should have done.

After a week of thinking about it Sev just might have changed his ways due to an ultimatum as he would have considered how much he valued the friendship and how much he would miss it if it ended?????

However if that had been the case then there could have been a rather different story I suppose.

More than Lily's fault I think she did not handle the break up better IMO. She was effectively putting an end to a friendship that she too, valued for a long time, seeing that they were friends for more than 5 years IMO.
Break ups are never pretty. But it was a break up that had been long overdue based on their conversations. At some point a break occurs and it is frequently an unhappy occasion.

After a week of thinking about it Sev just might have changed his ways due to an ultimatum as he would have considered how much he valued the friendship and how much he would miss it if it ended?????
He knew what was bothering her. She made that rather clear. If he had changed his stance and stopped calling people mudblood and stopped associating with the Jr. DEs and using Dark Magic, she would have seen the difference and resumed the friendship. He had his ultimatum; he just needed to pay attention.

Perhaps one of several the reasons was due to peer pressure as well as her own moral stance. If I were Lily I would have taken him aside and explained fully why I was reluctantly ending the friendship and said to Sev that if he really valued their friendship he should think about what he was doing and giving him a chance to think about it - like a week or two. I'd also explain how hurt I was by being called a mudblood and that I thought that James and Sirius were arrogant Toe- Rags which Lily thought at the time and that Sev should just not have anything to do with them - ignore them and hopefully they would do the same. That's what I think Lily should have done.

:clap: :clap:

I sooo agree with this. I also feel that's what Lily should have done. Snape wanted to be a DE adn he also wanted Voldemort's friendship. So I would have really liked it, had Lily given the choice to Snape. But she took an unilateral stand, ending her friendship. That is what I did not like very much.

Break ups are never pretty. But it was a break up that had been long overdue based on their converstations. At some point a break occurs and it is frequently an unhappy occasion.

I agree breakups are never pretty. But I also think Lily started moving away from Snape only in their fifth year and in my personal opinion she started seing James in a different way from the werewolf incident where in Lily heard of James's heoic rescue IMO.

It's getting a little off topic of Lily and Snape, but I compare him to Harry. Harry doesn't need our pity. He was never loved once in his childhood (the love he got when he was one didn't influence him), but he turned out all right, didn;t he?
On the contrary the love we get in the first year of life is the most important as any child psychologist would tell you. Consequently the love Harry had in that forst year stood him in good stead throughout his years with the Dursleys. They were abusive, but Harry always knew that he didn't deserve it, and it wasn't his fault. Snape on the other hand did not have love in that vital first year. The neglect at this age would have led him to fundamentally believe he was unimportant and worthless. That is part of the reason he hides in the bushes and watches Lily - because he doesn't believe he is worthy to talk to anyone, and experience has told him to expect to be rejected. But of course the overwhelming yearning for companionship - and the desire to tell Lily what she is - makes him reveal himself - something he almost immediately regrets because he is not equipped to cope with the social interaction and he knows it.

ETA: On the break-up: I don't think that Lily had any responsibility to do anything. Her best friend had called her a foul name so the ball was firmly in his court. He did try to apologise, but his apology does seem to be a bit thin if he is calling every other muggle-born Mudblood. Really this was the wake up call for Sev. He really should have realised at this point that the path he was taking was not good. If he had stopped calling people mudblood and stopped aspiring to be a death eater than I think the friendship would have resumed. But I don't think Lily "should" have done anything different. She was quite within her rights to be angry and upset and to express those emotions to Severus.

I sooo agree with this. I also feel that's what Lily should have done. Snape wanted to be a DE adn he also wanted Voldemort's friendship. So I would have really liked it, had Lily given the choice to Snape. But she took an unilateral stand, ending her friendship. That is what I did not like very much.

I agree with Comicbook. Snape did have a chance; if he had changed after their last conversation, Lily would have noticed. She might have become friends with him again. But Snape preferred to pursue his personal goals instead of the friendship. I actually thought her taking a unilateral stand was brave and very commendable of her under the circumstances.

I agree breakups are never pretty. But I also think Lily started moving away from Snape only in their fifth year and in my personal opinion she started seing James in a different way from the werewolf incident where in Lily heard of James's heoic rescue IMO.

Well James was heroic, but I doubt that caused Lily to see him differently. He was heroic on the Quidditch pitch too and so if she were looking for a hero, he was already one. They lived in the same house for years afterall.

Well IMO James's action that night was awesome. Really! As a friend IMO. As an enemy whose life James was saving, I don't know. :)

And since I don't know if James came for Snape or for Sirius and Remus, I cannot say that Snape should also see it that way and be grateful. I think Snape believed that he was saved by his enemy who, Snape was sure had been part of the prank and came to get him because he develpoed cold feet IMO. That is why IMO Snape was not grateful at all.

And it was James's actions that caused Lily to see him differently IMO. That was why in that memory, Snape was livid and preety jealous. Because he feels that she was looking at James differently when in his opinion, James had got cold feet, and so came to save him IMO.

And I don't think Snape was very impressed by jame's Quidditch prowess. I think he was jealous only because he suspectd Lily to have feelings for James IMO.

I agree breakups are never pretty. But I also think Lily started moving away from Snape only in their fifth year and in my personal opinion she started seing James in a different way from the werewolf incident where in Lily heard of James's heoic rescue IMO.
It was never a choice between Snape and James. Snape was a childhood friend that she didn't see in a romantic light, period. James was an immature schoolmate who she might have felt some attraction for, but clearly didn't want to date until he matured, since it was over a year before she did.

There would be no reason for for Lily to want to stop being friends with Snape due to James. Again, attributing their breakup to that overlooks what was really wrong, which was Snape's bigotry, friends (Jr. DEs), and interests (Dark Magic and Voldemort). She stopped being friends with Snape because of his bad choices, not because of an attraction to James. It wasn't the choice between one boyfriend and another. Snape was not viewed that way. He was viewed as a friend way too far down a dark and destructive path.

It was Snape's fault they stopped being friends, not Lily's future romantic interests.

ETA: On the break-up: I don't think that Lily had any responsibility to do anything. Her best friend had called her a foul name so the ball was firmly in his court. He did try to apologise, but his apology does seem to be a bit thin if he is calling every other muggle-born Mudblood. Really this was the wake up call for Sev. He really should have realised at this point that the path he was taking was not good. If he had stopped calling people mudblood and stopped aspiring to be a death eater than I think the friendship would have resumed. But I don't think Lily "should" have done anything different. She was quite within her rights to be angry and upset and to express those emotions to Severus.
Thank you. The reason Snape's story is tragic because he made such bad choices, driving her away. Ultimately, creating his own personal hell when he contributed to Lily's death.

:clap: :clap:

Snape wanted to be a DE adn he also wanted Voldemort's friendship. So I would have really liked it, had Lily given the choice to Snape. But she took an unilateral stand, ending her friendship. That is what I did not like very much.

IMO which I will admit is just that, my opinion, you cannot put the blame for Snape's actions onto anyone else. Lily is in no way to blame for his choices and actions, but then neither is Voldemort, Avery, Mulcibar, Dumbledore, or even Harry. Other people can present choice to you, but your choice is just that, your choice. A rather long sentence there. Snape was a very brave man who was almost fatally flawed. I don't think even if he had won Lily's love, he would have been happy. He just seems to enjoy being miserable. My mother had a saying, "He's his own worst enemy." Seems to fit Snape like a glove.

Well IMO James's action that night was awesome. Really! As a friend IMO. As an enemy whose life James was saving, I don't know. :)

Well Snape shouldn't really dwell on James' motive, imo, from his point of view, he should just be happy James rescued him for whatever reason, imo. Sirius wasn't going to save him after he chose to walk into the tunnel. I respect your view, but that is distinct from what I feel was the correct way for Snape to look at it. :)

And I don't think Snape was very impressed by jame's Quidditch prowess. I think he was jealous only because he suspectd Lily to have feelings for James IMO.

I was referring to Lily, not to Snape. I meant if Lily was attracted to heroes, James was already a Quidditch hero before he rescued Snape, so there is no reason for her to suddenly be attracted to James for looking like a hero, he was already a hero to the student body - even Snape called him that. :)

IMO which I will admit is just that, my opinion, you cannot put the blame for Snape's actions onto anyone else. Lily is in no way to blame for his choices and actions, but then neither is Voldemort, Avery, Mulcibar, Dumbledore, or even Harry. Other people can present choice to you, but your choice is just that, your choice. A rather long sentence there. Snape was a very brave man who was almost fatally flawed. I don't think even if he had won Lily's love, he would have been happy. He just seems to enjoy being miserable. My mother had a saying, "He's his own worst enemy." Seems to fit Snape like a glove.
Thanks. One the most important themes was that of choice. Snape made the choices, however bad they were.

However a REALLY good talking to and an ultimatium with a timeframe just MIGHT have got Sev REALLY thinking about what he valued most. That is what I'm trying to say. I myself - personally speaking would not have thrown away five years of friendship without a very serious and possibly heated discussion with the other party. Maybe it's because I am a stubborn green-eyed redhead - I would not have let Sev give in to those other creeps and ideals without a serious fight to try and make him see how wrong they and their ideals were. If, after all that, it would be only then with much regret that I would let Sev know about that I would end the friendship. But then that's me.......

What I am trying to say that their friendship ended in more of a whimper than a bang. I really think Sev needed a loud bang to make him come to his senses.

I think everyone is different. I would have suggested that Lily end the relationship when Snape began displaying dark arts "acts". That would include calling people 'Mudblood' and performing dark curses as we saw in SWM. The reason being that it would be apparent at that juncture that Snape was not merely interesting in the dark arts (and its accessory behavior) from a scientific standpoint, but from a practical one as well (meaning use).

It is difficult to say when Snape began doing these things, but if Lily had been making excuses to her friends on Snape's behalf for years, then it would seem that Snape had been displaying dark arts tendencies for some time, imo.

As we saw in memory #5, Lily had a very difficult time speaking to Snape about his dark arts interests; he either turned the topic or ignored her altogether (DH TPT). At 15 years old in the 1970's, Lily was not psychologically fit to address Snape's difficulties in a superior way, she could only point them out and indicate that they were wrong from her point of view, imo. Nor should Lily have spent a good portion of her time trying to deal with Snape's problems to the detriment of her own school life and work, imo.

It is unfortunate that Snape would go on to engage activities that would directly cause the death of James and Lily; but that is not reason enough to retroactively cast blame on Lily for ending the friendship on a sour note. Snape's choice to further his dark interests rather than remain friends with Lily showed how dedicated he was to the dark arts (presuming he fancied Lily at the time). If it hadn't been Lily targeted when Snape became a Death Eater, it would have been some other precious child and his parents who were targeted and killed - and Snape would have continued to be a Death Eater and likely harmed or killed a good number of people after that, imo.

So the outcome of Snape's choice was invariably going to be negative, imo, that it ended up with the death's of Lily's family instead of another is rather immaterial with respect to Snape's choice to become a Death Eater, imo. Many people were killed while he served under Voldemort and imo, Snape together with Voldemort and all of the DEs were responsible for every illegal and immoral act committed by the group. Snape had an opportunity to see each of the lives taken by the group as a negative occurrence, but he did not until Lily was targeted, imo.

Well a good 30 minutes of laying down the law with a bang could possibly made Sev think seriously about his life. However since his didn't happen...

Probably just as well a we may well have missed out on any Harry Potter stories altogether.

Poor misguided Sev..... Very tragic!

I never have seen Snape's story in relation to Lily as tragic. Snape was actually on his way to being my second favorite character in the series before DH. I dig dark characters, but strong ones. Imo, Snape's old friendship with Lily being the central reason for most of Snapes actions and behavior in the series was a weak one. The relationship wasn't romantic and it was troubled for quite some time by my interpretation, so it doesn't serve as a sufficient basis for Snape's enduring emotions, acts and behavior, imo. In addition, Snape had a long period of years to come to grips with his emotions and move on, but he didn't. I suppose because of that I do not see Snape's story in relation to his old friendship with Lily as tragic, but rather as :huh:, because Snape could have made things right with his and Lily's friendship and did not; he could have not joined Voldemort, but he did; he could have been the type of person that moved on, but he was not, imo. Imo, Snape couldn't grab his life by the reins and gallop and I don't find that a tragic portrayal, but rather a portrayal of a character with deep character flaws, similar to Voldemort (although they each had their personal set of flaws of course).

Sev's character flaws were tragic though and he couldn't move on probably because he was kicking himself for not seeing Lily's point of view. If she'd been more forceful about the ending of the friendship - as I said on the Snape/Lily forum - the friendship ended with a whimper not a bang - and if it had been otherwise Sev might have thought twice about his actions and the story would have been completely different. Probably just as well or we may have had no story at all.....IMO if Lily had given Sev and ultimatum - say of two weeks to think about what he really wanted - then the whole scenario might have been really different.

Imo, Lily gave Snape two years to decide what he wanted to do. If he had decided for himself to change during that time, I am sure she would have been friends with him again. Unfortunately, Snape chose to remain true to his dark activities. I respect the view that Snape has a tragic story line, but I don't personally feel a story is tragic when the person brought the circumstances upon themselves.

Turning the topic slightly; I wonder if Snape ever tried to encourage Lily to see things his way - that is, tried to get her to become interested in using dark magic and exploring the dark arts?

Imo, Lily gave Snape two years to decide what he wanted to do. If he had decided for himself to change during that time, I am sure she would have been friends with him again.
I think if Snape changed in those last two years of Hogwarts, there is probabaly a chance Lily might go back to him. (However I wonder how awkward the friendship would have gotten when Lily started dating James..) I think JKR wanted the message of the friendship to be that it was Snape's choice that decided the fate, and there was nothing Lily could do about it except end it when he continued to make the wrong one with no sign of turning back. I base this on the fact that choices are important in the Harry Potter series, and are especially true for the character of Snape imo.

Turning the topic slightly; I wonder if Snape ever tried to encourage Lily to see things his way - that is, tried to get her to become interested in using dark magic and exploring the dark arts?
Well, according to JKR's quote about Snape thinking the dark arts would impress Lily, it appeared he had a false impression that the dark arts really didn't bother Lily that much, or that he was hoping she would change her mind along the line - those are the ways I would interpret it.

I think if Snape changed in those last two years of Hogwarts, there is probabaly a chance Lily might go back to him. (However I wonder how awkward the friendship would have gotten when Lily started dating James..) I think JKR wanted the message of the friendship to be that it was Snape's choice that decided the fate, and there was nothing Lily could do about it except end it when he continued to make the wrong one with no sign of turning back. I base this on the fact that choices are important in the Harry Potter series, and are especially true for the character of Snape imo.Yay! I agree! :D There were two years between the break up and them leaving Hogwarts. Two years in which Snape could have turned things around and sadly he remained stubbornly on the same path, convinced that he was right! :(

But my point was that Lily didn't give Sev a timeline eg 2 week ultimatum so he possibly thought she might not have been too serious about ending the friendship. IF for example she said something along the lines of "Sev - much as I really like you and value our friendship I am giving you two weeks to thinks about whether you value our friendship over your so-called mates and their dark art stuff. IF - at the end of this two week period you think our five year friendship is worth nothing - then so be it. I have to tell you that I resent your hurtful remarks about mudbloods and realise it could have been said in the heat of the moment. I think you should ignore that arrogant toe-rag James and his friend Sirius and maybe then they will stop inciting you to curse them and vice versa. Then things may be better for us both."

As I said that is what I would have said - or at least something along those lines. I think that with a time ultimatum Sev MIGHT have really considered his position instead of living in some sort of hope that over time - like many months or years Lily could have a change of heart - and we know that wasn't going to happen much later. However Sev didn't - he was in denial.

Yay! I agree! :D There were two years between the break up and them leaving Hogwarts. Two years in which Snape could have turned things around and sadly he remained stubbornly on the same path, convinced that he was right! :(

I think, though I don't have canon for this, Snape may have known in those two years just what he had let go and what he was about to choose. But once again Lily's attitude IMO (here I am assuming that Lily and Snape never interacted with each other after the SWM) would not have had him rethink. Lily had ended one and for all with him. So there was no turning back the clock there IMO.

If it happened that way, it was once again a wrong choice, but IMO Snape may have felt that he could not let go of Avery and Mulciber, all the more, because he had lost Lily. Having lost one, IMO Snape may have not wanted to lose the other too. :sad:

Perhaps one of several the reasons was due to peer pressure as well as her own moral stance. If I were Lily I would have taken him aside and explained fully why I was reluctantly ending the friendship and said to Sev that if he really valued their friendship he should think about what he was doing and giving him a chance to think about it - like a week or two. I'd also explain how hurt I was by being called a mudblood and that I thought that James and Sirius were arrogant Toe- Rags which Lily thought at the time and that Sev should just not have anything to do with them - ignore them and hopefully they would do the same. That's what I think Lily should have done.

After a week of thinking about it Sev just might have changed his ways due to an ultimatum as he would have considered how much he valued the friendship and how much he would miss it if it ended?????

However if that had been the case then there could have been a rather different story I suppose.

I think Lily would have done that, only is she wanted to salvage the friendship, which I don't think she wanted. Lily wasn't just mad at Snape for calling her a "filthy little mudblood", she was mad at his association with pre-Death Eaters, him thinking Dark Magic was just a joke, and him calling other muggleborns "mudblood". Snape can apologize all he wants and promise never to do it again, but he can't change the fact he once did those things. Maybe Lily didn't want to forgive him for those things. I don't know about you guys, but to me, Lily seemed liked she already made up her mind about ending the friendship right there and now during the breakup scene. I think Lily thought there was nothing Snape could say to change her mind, and that's why her words were hostile, like she was challenging him to prove her wrong. Which he couldn't.

I don't think it is important how Lily broke up with Snape, but why she broke up with him. If Lily wanted to give Snape an ultimatum, she would have, but she didn't, which reflects that the friendship is ended. How Lily chose to breake up with Snape is her prerogative. I don't think it would have mattered if she did it front of James and Sirius, if she broke up with him using a Post-it note, or outside the Gryffindor common room. It all remains the same in the fact she is ending the friendship.

I am not disputing the fact that it was her right to break up their friendship but I am a bit surprised she did so with a whimper and not a bang - so to speak. I would not have given up the friendship without more of a fight if it had been going on for so many years. That is what surprised me about Lily.

But as I said it's only fiction and if things had been even a bit different we would most likely not had a successful Harry Potter series.

I am not disputing the fact that it was her right to break up their friendship but I am a bit surprised she did so with a whimper and not a bang - so to speak. I would not have given up the friendship without more of a fight if it had been going on for so many years. That is what surprised me about Lily.

But as I said it's only fiction and if things had been even a bit different we would most likely not had a successful Harry Potter series.

What do you mean it went out with "a whimper and not a bang"? IMO, Lily was yelling her head off at Snape outside the Gryffindor common room (I wonder if the fellow Gryffindors inside heard the whole conversation). That seems like a pretty big bang. I think a whimper would be if Lily just stoped talking to Snape, ignoring him when he tried to talk to her and refusing to be around him anymore. The bang was Lily letting Snape know how she felt.

I think the reason why Lily was so quick to end the friendship was she just so sick of it and she wanted it over. I don't think she would fight to keep a friendship with someone she felt she had to make excuses for.

Well on the issue of Snape calling Lily a 'filthy little mudblood' - well I think this had a bigger impact on Lily than meets the eye for several reasons.

First, Snape was calling other Muggleborns 'mudblood' and it may have been embarrassing for Lily to speak to him about it. She was a muggleborn too, and as such, she had to assume her friend's condensation of muggleborns did not extend to her. So when he called her 'mudblood', it was evidence that he did look down upon her for her birth - that is, it was an open admission of his feeling the same condensation for her (independent of what he may have actually felt). And he did it before a crowd, so being friendly with him afterward would have made her look idiotic to others.

Second, here I agree with The_Green_Woods in that James showed Lily a distinction of character. When Snape called her a mudblood, James became immediately enraged and demanded an apology, backing up his demand with his wand. James did this despite the fact that he and Lily were supposedly on opposite sides of the battle and she had burned him declaring she'd rather date a giant squid than him - in front of a crowd. Lily was hurt and embarrassed when Snape called her the derogatory term and she lashed out at James for his own poor behavior. But imo, his anger went beyond the simple fact that he liked Lily (he could have said to Lily: "now see the kind of guy you are defending, one who thinks of you as a you-know-what. I would never think of you like that" - which would be indicative of his using the situation for his benefit to win her over). But James didn't, he was truly angry at Snape for using the term - on Lily of course - but the fact that he wouldn't even repeat the term in defense of himself spoke volumes. James' mind was so caught up on the subject of the derrogatory term, when Lily accused him of being as bad as Snape, he immediately became incredulous - 'what? I'd never call you a you-know-what!' - when she was of course speaking about entirely different things - which he would have realized had he not been caught in a rage at the use of the mudblood term - as he obviously never used the term.

Later, when Lily calmed down, the distinction between James and Snape's belief systems would highlight for her how much rationalizing she'd been doing in relation to Snape and how even someone as arrogant and full of faults as she believed James was, could have a good sense of right and wrong on fundamental issues. This didn't mean she'd run to James (as she didn't) it would just serve as a lesson of values for her in general.

Finally, calling people mudbloods was indicative of one of the great tenants of the Death Eaters and budding Death Eaters a like. The idea that those of muggle or muggleborn birth were beneath the rest of the wizards and should be exterminated.

So Lily was deeply impacted by being called a mudblood by Snape on several levels and that is why it brought everything to a head for her. Imo, Snape, she reasoned, was truly a part of the group of budding Death Eaters and there was no way he would change.

However a REALLY good talking to and an ultimatium with a timeframe just MIGHT have got Sev REALLY thinking about what he valued most. That is what I'm trying to say. I myself - personally speaking would not have thrown away five years of friendship without a very serious and possibly heated discussion with the other party. Maybe it's because I am a stubborn green-eyed redhead - I would not have let Sev give in to those other creeps and ideals without a serious fight to try and make him see how wrong they and their ideals were. If, after all that, it would be only then with much regret that I would let Sev know about that I would end the friendship. But then that's me...

I think that Lily meant for the break up to be an ultimatum in itself. Your mentioning the five-year friendship got me thinking about what Lily must have been thinking when she made the decision to end the friendship. I think that it was exactly this - the thought that this was a friendship that had lasted for so long, had overcome house-rivalries, and vast differences in their character. I think that it must have been the reason for why Lily did not end the friendship sooner. She didn't want for all those years to have been for nothing.

Lily is not a person who is stubbornly set in her ways and refuses to change. She was willing to accept James once he grew into a better person, and to give him a second chance. I think that she would have given Snape the exact same chance, if he had shown any interest in turning away from the dark path that he was taking. As you said, they'd been friends for such a long time, and that is not something that you forget easily.

What I am trying to say that their friendship ended in more of a whimper than a bang. I really think Sev needed a loud bang to make him come to his senses.
I really don't get what you mean here. I don't think that it gets any 'bang'-er than Snape calling Lily a mudblood in front of the whole school. That was the bang that Lily needed to come to her senses, and realise just what kind of a person her once-best friend had turned into.

But my point was that Lily didn't give Sev a timeline eg 2 week ultimatum so he possibly thought she might not have been too serious about ending the friendship. IF for example she said something along the lines of "Sev - much as I really like you and value our friendship I am giving you two weeks to thinks about whether you value our friendship over your so-called mates and their dark art stuff. IF - at the end of this two week period you think our five year friendship is worth nothing - then so be it. I have to tell you that I resent your hurtful remarks about mudbloods and realise it could have been said in the heat of the moment. I think you should ignore that arrogant toe-rag James and his friend Sirius and maybe then they will stop inciting you to curse them and vice versa. Then things may be better for us both."
I got the impression that Lily had been doing exactly that for years. It was just that Snape calling her a mudblood (henceforth to be called the Big Bang) was too much for her to take. Plus, we have to take into account that Lily is 15 years old. The conversation that you mention seems beyond the scope of an angry and frustrated 15 year old, IMO.

Let's look at what we do know about the relationship. We know that Lily disapproved of Snape's association with the Death Nibblers. At the end of the conversation in memory before the Big Bang, Lily is still trying to argue her point, to no avail. I don't think that Lily gave up any time soon after that either. Thus, it is something that Snape knows Lily disapproves of.

The mudblood comment - I think that any muggleborn would disapprove of that. Lily knew that Snape called all her friends that. She had been making excuses to her friends for years, she says. Clearly, this was nothing new either. Lily being a muggleborn in a war-torn wizarding world, I imagine that she might have been called that by others before Snape.

Lily also knows that Snape is planning to join Voldemort. She would know about what was going on in the wizarding world, about the kind of terrible things that Voldemort was doing. And Snape is joining him. So, how could Lily, who is feeling angry and resentful at Snape at the time, possibly think the best of Snape, and 'realize' that he did it in the heat of the moment? As I've said before, I believe that this was about the first time that Lily was able to evaluate Snape's actions as a whole, without feeling the need to justify them. Having done that, I think she concluded that she had to end the friendship then, because it was turning her into someone who she did not want to be.

I think, though I don't have canon for this, Snape may have known in those two years just what he had let go and what he was about to choose. But once again Lily's attitude IMO (here I am assuming that Lily and Snape never interacted with each other after the SWM) would not have had him rethink. Lily had ended one and for all with him. So there was no turning back the clock there IMO.

But Jo's comments point out that Snape thought that he could impress Lily by becoming a powerful Death Eater. That doesn't look like Snape made a choice between the Dark Arts and Lily. It seems like he was hoping that Lily would come back to him if he became powerful enough. Or was she talking about their Hogwarts years?

So Lily was deeply impacted by being called a mudblood by Snape on several levels and that is why it brought everything to a head for her. Imo, Snape, she reasoned, was truly a part of the group of budding Death Eaters and there was no way he would change.

I agree completely. The mudblood comment, and the fact that the insult came so naturally to Snape, was the big bang that Lily needed to realise that Snape was well and truly a lost cause, and that there was nothing she could do about it. If Five years of being friends with Lily hadn't done anything to alter Snape's views on muggles and muggleborn, what could?

I also get the feeling that it was very important for Lily to feel secure around her friends. We see her being a bit bossy to Snape in the werewolf memory. We see how free she is with him, how she tells him things to his face, with no fear about how he might react. Even when she heard about Snape calling her friends mudblood, Lily still had hope for him, because he'd never hurt her. The mudblood comment erased that sense of security that she felt around Snape. She was no longer safe.

I am not disputing the fact that it was her right to break up their friendship but I am a bit surprised she did so with a whimper and not a bang - so to speak. I would not have given up the friendship without more of a fight if it had been going on for so many years. That is what surprised me about Lily.
I think Lily broke the friendship off with a bang as well. Telling him that she flat out didn't want to associate with him was a pretty big bang imo and I agree that a "whimper" break up would have been her just ignoring Snape more and more (perhaps that's what she was doing already - not meeting up with him after the OWL exam). I always saw it like she tried to stick with the friendship through five years of tension and quarrels (I assume it was so as even the childhood memories we have of Snape and Lily show them arguing) because she did care for Snape. I think the fact that Lily tried for years to get him on the right path is a pretty good fight for friendship imo. Imo, in the end, she realised she wasn't benefitting for the relationship and was only making more and more excuses. There was no reason for her to hold onto a relationship like that once she figured out Snape was not turning back, imo. Can you imagine a Death Eater and an Order Member getting together for tea once a week? I sure can't and I'm sure Lily couldn't either :p

Lily is not a person who is stubbornly set in her ways and refuses to change. She was willing to accept James once he grew into a better person, and to give him a second chance. I think that she would have given Snape the exact same chance, if he had shown any interest in turning away from the dark path that he was taking. As you said, they'd been friends for such a long time, and that is not something that you forget easily.Lily communicated rather clearly to both James and Snape either in SWM (for James) or later that evening (for Snape). She let both of them know what she considered unacceptable behavior. James took the hint, and by their seventh year (over a year away) she was willing to date him. James's change must have been dramatic enough to have Dumbledore make James Head Boy. Lily was able to see James's turnaround. Had Snape taken the rather loud hint to heart, she would have noticed and resumed the friendship. This was Snape's ultimatum, and he paid no heed.

If it happened that way, it was once again a wrong choice, but IMO Snape may have felt that he could not let go of Avery and Mulciber, all the more, because he had lost Lily. Having lost one, IMO Snape may have not wanted to lose the other too.
I agree with this, but this is where I think Sev went wrong. He was so afraid of loosing his remaining friends that he didn't think about what Lily had said, and try to learn from it. He didn't think about what was the right thing to do, he thought of what was best for him at that time. Of course that wasn't what was best in the long term.
Lily communicated rather clearly to both James and Snape either in SWM (for James) or later that evening (for Snape). She let both of them know what she considered unacceptable behavior. James took the hint, and by their seventh year (over a year away) she was willing to date him. James's change must have been dramatic enough to have Dumbledore make James Head Boy. Lily was able to see James's turnaround. Had Snape taken the rather loud hint to heart, she would have noticed and resumed the friendship. This was Snape's ultimatum, and he paid no heed.
I think we see the potential in JAmes beginning to reveal itself with his response to the prank. He didn't worry about what Sirius might think he did what he thought was the best thing for everyone - he went and got Snape out of trouble. Regardless of his motives (which I don't want to go into) he showed that he was prepared to do what was right, not what would make him popular with his friends. He could well have thought that it was nothing to do with him and let Snape get hurt and Sirius get into trouble and Remus be outed. But he didn't. He risked his own life to save Snape from harm, keep Sirius out of trouble and protect Remus. And this was at a time when Lily still wouldn't date him. I think that gives some indication of the person he became.

I think that gives some indication of the person he became.
I do too. He acted out principle and put himself in grave danger doing it. And I think we have to ake this converstation to the James thread. :whistle:

It seems I'm a stubborn green-eyed redhead (witch) but I would have tried reverse psychology if the ultimatum hadn't worked. It's just me I'm STUBBORN - could be because I'm born 5/5 (May- Taurus) - NOT giving the year yet but many could guess the decade I suppose.

I really fight for friendship to the point of bullying friends into my way of thinking if I feel they are misguided or badly influenced. Then if they can't see reason and only then I tell them it's over - and in no uncertain terms.

However if I think they are doing nothing wrong and our friendship is dying because we no longer have anything in common then I will let it die a natural death.

Due to the atmosphere and surroundings (ie no there being no 'common' common room I think Lily had no chance of winning the war for Sev's ideals. IMO they used him to get him to think their way by pretending to be his friend and since he had very little experience in cultivating friendships he was more or less brainwashed by the prospective DE's and their way of thinking via the courtesy of the Slytherin Common Room. Slytherins were cunning enough to take advantage of a poor lonely boy whose only friend was a Mudblood. They recognised his talents and really went to town to reinforce his mother's doctrine that mudbloods were inferior.

Actually I'm very surprised she allowed him to mix with Lily at all - let alone befriend her. This indicates she didn't really care and that he was a neglected child.

Due to the atmosphere and surroundings (ie no there being no 'common' common room I think Lily had no chance of winning the war for Sev's ideals. IMO they used him to get him to think their way by pretending to be his friend and since he had very little experience in cultivating friendships he was more or less brainwashed by the prospective DE's and their way of thinking via the courtesy of the Slytherin Common Room.

I think that is a little unfair to the Slytherins. Not all Slytherins were budding death eaters or into dark magic. I don't think they had dark arts synopsiums or burned muggle dolls in the common room. Unless I am mistaken, Slughorn was their head of house and he was not into the dark arts whole regime at all.

Snape came to Hogwarts with a desire to be in Slytherin - he knew a lot of curses already and that was likely tied to his background (like Draco's). But recall that even in Draco's year, Blaise Zabini was a friend of Draco's - Blaise hung around him, but he never became a budding death eater and he was ripe for it as he held at least some blood prejudice. So just being in Slytherin does not mean you will become a Death Eater. Blaise wasn't exactly from a great background either having had 7 dads all of whom died mysteriously leaving his mum ton's of money (and it was suspected that his mum had a hand in those deaths). Clearly he wasn't from a well-adjusted family, yet he made the right decisions, despite his Slytherin surroundings.

Snape also had that option and he had an advantage over Blaise, he had Lily as a friend to help him see another way. Blaise didn't even have that much.

Slytherins were cunning enough to take advantage of a poor lonely boy whose only friend was a Mudblood. They recognised his talents and really went to town to reinforce his mother's doctrine that mudbloods were inferior.

I don't think that Slytherins were predators. They befriended those in their houses like everyone else. Lucius welcomed Snape warmly, but if Snape had acted like Blaise and rejected the dark arts bit, then they would not force Snape to join them, imo. Lily was also there as Snape's friend and he had a choice of directions to take. Imo, he chose his destiny and it was not forced upon him by a gang of Slytherins determined to make a Death Eater out of him. Snape had an interest in the dark arts (with all of his curses) and also he was a "Slytherin" boy, desiring to be placed in that house and so he would attract friends that were similar to him, imo.

I agree with this, but this is where I think Sev went wrong. He was so afraid of loosing his remaining friends that he didn't think about what Lily had said, and try to learn from it. He didn't think about what was the right thing to do, he thought of what was best for him at that time. Of course that wasn't what was best in the long term.

I think he could not, because he was such a lonely child. Lily brought him a lot more than friendship IMO. She was his escape from the reality his life was with his parents, neglected and unwanted probably, and in School he was a nonentity in Slytherin, having no name, no money, no power, no status. He was nothing IMO.

And after Lily walked away, Snape IMO could not even think of losing the only other people who probably spoke to him, because he was going to join their group. I think, while in the next 2 years he would have banged his head many, many times and wished with his entire being that if he could somehow rewrite that day and also have listened to her words and stopped hanging around with the DEs; he could not do it once she stopped being friendly with him.

The irony IMO was that he was forced to live that way for the rest of his life once he turned and became a spy.

Which is why I think the way Lily broke off with him, was not correct IMO. She knew all this and still took a unilateral decision, instead of sitting him down and telling him, he had to choose between her and those who wanted to kill people like her. She never did and by that, she probably pushed him to the other side IMO without ever meaning to.

Unfortunately I see Snape's downfall a bit like someone who is targeted by a whacky religious cult. They tend to pick on lonely people with few friends but who have a certain amount of insecurity in them to cultivate into the cult by befriending them (or pretending to) and managing to isolate them from any friends they might have. I see the Dark Arts Death Eaters Club like that with Voldemort as it's sicko leader.

Poor Sev - he didn't stand a chance... Ripe for brainwashing due to his parents rather negative influence on him and only one true friend who was rather naive to the ways of the wizarding world.

I don't think there is any canon to support the idea that everyone in Slytherin house was part of a whacky religious cult bent on seducing Snape into joining them. I love Slytherin house and I think everyone in it had as much potential to be a stellar person as anyone else. Imo, the idea that Snape was brainwashed eliminates all responsibility on his part for the poor choices he made. Snape was responsible for his choices and imo his friends, housemates, the atmosphere of Slytherin house, his enemies, his father, Lily and anything else under the sun, cannot be held to blame for the way he turned out. If that were true, I think we could hold Voldemort blameless as well and I don't think that was the point.

Snape made a bad decision to join the death eaters and then a good decision to leave them behind and that is Snape's subplot in a nutshell, imo. It is also a major tenant of the HP series, imo, "our choices make us who were are and we are responsible for making them".

I said LIKE a whacky religious cult and only implied that many of it's members were in Slytherin ot other houses. Actually ONE was in Gryffindor - Peter. However I was using that as an example not the absolute gospel truth so please don't twist my meanings.

BTW I agree Sev made a bad mistake in joining the DE's and although we all make mistakes sometimes this was a really humungus mistake. (IMO of course.)

I think he could not, because he was such a lonely child. Lily brought him a lot more than friendship IMO. She was his escape from the reality his life was with his parents, neglected and unwanted probably, and in School he was a nonentity in Slytherin, having no name, no money, no power, no status. He was nothing IMO.

And after Lily walked away, Snape IMO could not even think of losing the only other people who probably spoke to him, because he was going to join their group. I think, while in the next 2 years he would have banged his head many, many times and wished with his entire being that if he could somehow rewrite that day and also have listened to her words and stopped hanging around with the DEs; he could not do it once she stopped being friendly with him.

The irony IMO was that he was forced to live that way for the rest of his life once he turned and became a spy.

Which is why I think the way Lily broke off with him, was not correct IMO. She knew all this and still took a unilateral decision, instead of sitting him down and telling him, he had to choose between her and those who wanted to kill people like her. She never did and by that, she probably pushed him to the other side IMO without ever meaning to.

There's no proof that Lily knew "she was his escape from the reality his life". Lily knew his parents argued and she probably knew he was unpopular, but there's no canon that Lily knew how much she meant to Snape. Even if she did know it, that doesn't mean she would have taken it into consideration when she decided to end the friendship. Lily had no responsibility to Snape. If she didn't want to be "his escape from the reality of his life" anymore, then she shouldn't be. Lily had her own life and she shouldn't have to be the ray of sunshine and voice of reason to someone that wouldn't even listen to her.

As I said before, I think Lily would have given Snape an ultimatum if she wanted to but the fact she didn't tells us something. She wasn't interested in salvaging the friendship. If she did want to, she would have accepted his apology and not use hostile words, but she did the exact opposite. To me, Lily seemed liked she already made up her mind about ending the friendship right there and now during the breakup scene. IMO, whether the end was delivered sitting down in private or a scream fight outside the Gryffindor common room is insignifacant when it both meant Lily through with the friendship.

IMO, Lily didn't push Snape to the other side, she just cut the friendship. Lily didn't tell Snape to go run to his Death Eater friends, but that's who Snape ran to after the breakup. Lily may have known Snape would fall deeper into his Death Eater buddies, but once again, he was not her responsibilty. If that's who Snape wanted to ran for comfort, Lily was not his friend anymore and shouldn't tell him who to run to. IMO, the fact the breakup scene contained no kind words of farewell from Lily means that she was so mad at him that she didn't even care what happened to Snape afterwards and that she was done with him.

I find it sad that 5 years of friendship ended in the manner it did and I find it hard to believe that Lily still didn't worry about Sev after she refused to have anything to do with him. I think she just might have worried a little about what might become of him and thought she couldn't do anything about it. Although she strongly disapproved of his lifestyle if she was a true friend from the past (as I think she was) she still worried about him a little - but had given up trying to help him.

Sad really....

I find it sad that 5 years of friendship ended in the manner it did and I find it hard to believe that Lily still didn't worry about Sev after she refused to have anything to do with him. I think she just might have worried a little about what might become of him and thought she couldn't do anything about it. Although she strongly disapproved of his lifestyle if she was a true friend from the past (as I think she was) she still worried about him a little - but had given up trying to help him.
I think it was a good thing she did give up, because she hadn't been getting anywhere with Snape in all those years. It was a waste of time on her part by fifth year imo. And I think she realised that.

I don't think Lily wanted to worry anymore. Imo, she didn't want to worry about a friend going down a dark path, she didn't want to worry about him turning on her, she didn't want to worry about what kind of things he was getting up to, and she realised the best thing for her to do was to just cut him off and stop worrying about it and get on with her own life. I think she had been thinking about cutting him off for awhile before SWM, but she kept trying, and kept hoping that maybe one day a miracle would happen and he would listen to her. But the sad truth is he wasn't going to listen to her and she realised there was nothing she could have done.

I think the friendship really started to deteriorate when Lily started talking to Snape about her worries about his friends and the path he was pursuing. She probably would have gotten more and more frustrated when he didn't listen, and I think this is when they started hanging out less and less (we don't even see them interact in SWM until James hexes Snape). I think Lily probably noticed that Snape was being a smaller and smaller part of her life and I think it was around this time she started seriously considering ending her friendship with him. I refuse to believe Lily wasn't incrediably stubborn in this friendship because we are told she tried for years and we saw she was having no effect on Snape. Imo, it wasn't about Lily not being stubborn enough, it was about Snape being too stubborn.

Yes Sev was at fault - no doubt about that but I find it hard to believe Lily stopped worrying about him fully as you don't do that with an old friend who has gone down a dangerous path. Perhaps she felt helpless and unable to do anything for him but that doesn't stop you caring in the back of your mind.

Perhaps Sev felt this but was too proud to admit he might have made a mistake and made no effort to rectify this since he felt he was welcome and wanted by this evil cult (this is was it really was when you think about it).

There's no proof that Lily knew "she was his escape from the reality his life". Lily knew his parents argued and she probably knew he was unpopular, but there's no canon that Lily knew how much she meant to Snape.

They do say they're best friends - I just think that means something. I know my best friends know alot about me & that they know they're important to me; best friends are aren't they?

Even if she did know it, that doesn't mean she would have taken it into consideration when she decided to end the friendship.

:agree::no::agree::no: arrrg! Can I vote both?

Lily had no responsibility to Snape.

Depends if your talking about while they were friends or after the friendship was ended. I know I except certain things from anyone classed as my best friend (like loyalty) & I don’t think I’m alone in that.

If she didn't want to be "his escape from the reality of his life" anymore, then she shouldn't be. Lily had her own life and she shouldn't have to be the ray of sunshine and voice of reason to someone that wouldn't even listen to her.

:agree: Absolutely


As I said before, I think Lily would have given Snape an ultimatum if she wanted to but the fact she didn't tells us something.

Possibly it does, however I don’t think it’s a concrete thing, but it is does open several different avenues.

She wasn't interested in salvaging the friendship. If she did want to, she would have accepted his apology and not use hostile words, but she did the exact opposite. To me, Lily seemed liked she already made up her mind about ending the friendship right there and now during the breakup scene.

I’m not convinced – He could just have approached her too soon, so she was still to angry to give him a proper hearing, for example. However I tend to think that as this is part of SWM (although not in that chapter) I can only think that it was the point where the lines were drawn – I just can’t say that that was definitely Lily’s objective at that moment in time.

IMO, whether the end was delivered sitting down in private or a scream fight outside the Gryffindor common room is insignifacant when it both meant Lily through with the friendship.

In the greater scheme of things yes, you’re right. I just know that in my experience the way these things are handled is very important, for my own self respect if nothing else.

IMO, Lily didn't push Snape to the other side, she just cut the friendship. Lily didn't tell Snape to go run to his Death Eater friends, but that's who Snape ran to after the breakup. Lily may have known Snape would fall deeper into his Death Eater buddies, but once again, he was not her responsibilty. If that's who Snape wanted to ran for comfort, Lily was not his friend anymore and shouldn't tell him who to run to. IMO, the fact the breakup scene contained no kind words of farewell from Lily means that she was so mad at him that she didn't even care what happened to Snape afterwards and that she was done with him.

My impression of the original point was that is was not blaming Lily or saying that she actively pushed him ‘to the other side’. I understood it to mean more that because Snape only had two supports in his life, Lily & Slytherin friends - when Lily ended the friendship he only had on avenue left to go to for support. To me that is not about blaming Lily but about examining the logistics of Snape’s position after the friendship was ended. :)

but I find it hard to believe Lily stopped worrying about him fully as you don't do that with an old friend who has gone down a dangerous path. Perhaps she felt helpless and unable to do anything for him but that doesn't stop you caring in the back of your mind.
I think she went through that stage near the end of their friendship. But I think the tone in her voice after SWM was very final. Imo, she didn't want to deal with him anymore and there was no pity in her voice. Imo, she was angry at him. I don't think she could even recognize the Snape she met in the park anymore. He was a death eater to her now imo, just like the rest of them. I think there is a possibility she just didn't care about him anymore after SWM.

Snape didn't worry about Lily either based on canon. He joined up with the DEs who were trying to kill her - seriously - because she was in the Order and they were fighting them directly. Imo, he had to have buried any feelings he had toward Lily. That is why I believe that Snape didn't become worried about Lily's safety suddenly when she was directly targeted...that makes little sense if she could have been killed by them at any time. There had to be more to it and in my opinion it was because Snape saw an opportunity to actually be with Lily romantically. At that point he allowed his old buried feelings to resurface and as his worry increased that she might be killed and he would not be able to be with her, his despair grew to the point where he was willing to go to Dumbledore. All hope was not lost because Voldemort was still going to kill Harry no matter what and would likely kill James as well - but if Dumbledore could keep Lily safe, Snape would have a chance of being with her - and without James or Harry in the picture to disturb things, imo. That also explains why Snape was so upset he wanted to die when Lily had died. All of Snape's hopes in that regard were dashed, imo.

Imo, canon supports this in that Dumbledore believed the same thing when Snape came to him, imo. That is why he told Snape he was disgusted by him. Snape reluctantly agreed that Dumbledore should keep them all safe, but imo, he was truly only concerned with keeping Lily safe and banked on the fact that Voldemort would kill her family. I don't see another interpretation possible from the canon we are given (from my perspective of the text), although I have considered other ideas. Nothing else makes sense to me because Snape behaved in a manner of one who was attempting to ensure the love of his life was spared - and not just so that she could 'exist as a happy individual' because imo, he would not have wanted to die if that was the case and also he would have wanted to ensure that James and Harry lived because that would make Lily happy, imo. Finally, Snape didn't try to kill Voldemort, which was the best way to keep Lily safe if his only goal was for her to 'exist and be happy'. But he didn't because that defeated his plans on two levels, imo; James would still be alive and with Lily and also, he'd likely die trying and never have a chance to be with her - aimo.

See my response in the SEV SNAPE forum and see you all in a few hours when I've had some sleep.

Goodnight - it's been fun Hasta manana.

Snape didn't worry about Lily either based on canon. He joined up with the DEs who were trying to kill her - seriously - because she was in the Order and they were fighting them directly. Imo, he had to have buried any feelings he had toward Lily. That is why I believe that Snape didn't become worried about Lily's safety suddenly when she was directly targeted...that makes little sense if she could have been killed by them at any time. There had to be more to it and in my opinion it was because Snape saw an opportunity to actually be with Lily romantically. At that point he allowed his old buried feelings to resurface and as his worry increased that she might be killed and he would not be able to be with her, his despair grew to the point where he was willing to go to Dumbledore. All hope was not lost because Voldemort was still going to kill Harry no matter what and would likely kill James as well - but if Dumbledore could keep Lily safe, Snape would have a chance of being with her - and without James or Harry in the picture to disturb things, imo. That also explains why Snape was so upset he wanted to die when Lily had died. All of Snape's hopes in that regard were dashed, imo.
Wow, that actually makes perfect sense to me. I never understood how Snape didn't worry about Lily when she was an Order memeber defying Voldemort three times, yet decided he should do something when she was directly targetted. I do think the reason was because he finally saw a chance where he could be with Lily. Him asking Voldemort to kill James and Harry to spare her life is a pretty big indicator imo.

There's no proof that Lily knew "she was his escape from the reality his life".

Even if one may feel Lily may not have known that she was his escape from reality, I think she would have known just how important she was to him, seeing that he was calling every muggleborn *mudblood* and yet called her his best friend. He listened to her, let her get her own way in everything, allowed her to tell him off about others he'd been hanging with.

She also knew how bad his home life was. Snape was with her at School and in the holidays, content and happy to be with her. I think she would have known how important she was to him and how much he cared about her.

She did not tackle the breakup properly IMO. It was a friendship she was breaking; she had her reasons and she also had every right to break off the friendship if she did not want it; but it was a relationship that involved two people; she took an one sided view without even letting Snape who she knew wanted the friendship say what he thought about the break up IMO.

He could have, for all she knew, sworn off the DEs he was hanging out with and chosen his side right then or in a couple of days, if she told him to think out everything and then decide if he wanted to be her friend or not IMO.

But what she says instead is something else. She sends him away, not allowing him even to apologize properly or explain to her IMO.

And because she sent him away, he went to those he had been hanging with, because he probably could not bear to lose them as well IMO.

He listened to her, let her get her own way in everything, allowed her to tell him off about others he'd been hanging with.
I'm sorry, Snape listened to Lily? I was under the impression the problem was Snape didn't listen to Lily. What are you basing this on?

She did not tackle the breakup properly IMO. It was a friendship she was breaking; she had her reasons and she also had every right to break off the friendship if she did not want it; but it was a relationship that involved two people; she took an one sided view without even letting Snape who she knew wanted the friendship say what he thought about the break up IMO.
Imo, Snape was not being a good friend. He didn't listen to her concerns, ignoring them and trying to change the subject. And imo, if Lily didn't want to be friends with Snape anymore, she didn't need Snape's opinion and permission. It's her life. She gave it a good shot imo, but failed and she realised there was nothing more to do.

But what she says instead is something else. She sends him away, not allowing him even to apologize properly or explain to her IMO.
What was there to explain? He knew the path he was pursuing, she knew the path he was pursuing, and he wasn't going to change because he was under the impression him becoming a death eater would impress Lily. If he hadn't gotten the hint by SWM, then I don't think he would have figured it out if Lily had given him a bit more time.

Snape IMO listened to Lily everytime. He listened to her and walked away from a friendship he desperately wanted and he did not speak a word when she simply dismissed him. I feel that was not very fair on Lily's part. Again, I am not saying she had no right to break a friendship she did not care for, but what I'm saying is she took a decision going against Snape's interest (he wanted the frienship and I think Lily knew it too) without asking Snape what he wanted to do. Be friends with her or cultivate them (the DEs).

He did not like her decision, but he respected that and walks away. I think had she given him a choice, Snape would have chosen her. No doubt about it in my mind.

He did choose her after he lost her forever to James. I think he would have chosen her that night of the SWM too.

But I would never know, because Lily never gave him that choice IMO.

Snape IMO listened to Lily everytime. He listened to her and walked away from a friendship he desperately wanted and he did not speak a word when she simply dismissed him.
Snape didn't listen when Lily told him about her concerns about his friends. He quickly changed the subject to the marauders and James. At the end of the scene, Harry narrates, "but Snape did not seem to have heard a word Lily said." He only paid attention to her calling James a toerag. If he listened to her, I doubt he would have thought she'd be impressed if he became a death eater.

I feel that was not very fair on Lily's part. Again, I am not saying she had no right to break a friendship she did not care for, but what I'm saying is she took a decision going against Snape's interest (he wanted the frienship and I think Lily knew it too) without asking Snape what he wanted to do. Be friends with her or cultivate them (the DEs).
Snape was also interested in joining a group that wanted to kill people like her. I don't blame Lily if she was scared or disgusted at the thought and wanted to leave a person like that.

Even if one may feel Lily may not have known that she was his escape from reality, I think she would have known just how important she was to him, seeing that he was calling every muggleborn *mudblood* and yet called her his best friend. He listened to her, let her get her own way in everything, allowed her to tell him off about others he'd been hanging with.

She also knew how bad his home life was. Snape was with her at School and in the holidays, content and happy to be with her. I think she would have known how important she was to him and how much he cared about her.
I'm not entirely convinced Lily knew how bad his home life was, but I'll say for the sake of the arguement she did. Just because Snape needed Lily doesn't mean Lily wants Snape. What does Lily get out of being Snape's escape from his life? I'm sure she was okay with it the beginning and maybe liked it, but when Snape started doing things that made her mad, I don't she wanted to be his escape anymore. If Snape so desperately needed Lily so much, then why did he start doing things that made her mad in the first place?

She did not tackle the breakup properly IMO. It was a friendship she was breaking; she had her reasons and she also had every right to break off the friendship if she did not want it; but it was a relationship that involved two people; she took an one sided view without even letting Snape who she knew wanted the friendship say what he thought about the break up IMO.

He could have, for all she knew, sworn off the DEs he was hanging out with and chosen his side right then or in a couple of days, if she told him to think out everything and then decide if he wanted to be her friend or not IMO.

But what she says instead is something else. She sends him away, not allowing him even to apologize properly or explain to her IMO.

And because she sent him away, he went to those he had been hanging with, because he probably could not bear to lose them as well IMO.


I think it unfair to judge how Lily broke up with Snape. How she chose to do it is her prerogotive. At least she did it person. Anyways, I know this sounds heartless, but I don't think it would have mattered what Snape wanted. A friendship is a joint-responsibilty. Each person has to as much effort and care as the other person for it to be an equal friendship. The moment one person decides the friendship is dead, it is dead. Snape can't make Lily want to be his friend anymore (like he can't make her love him), so anything he says in that attempt is futile.

You are right that Snape could have sworn off the DEs he was hanging out with and chosen his side right then or in a couple of days,if she told him to think out everything and then decide if he wanted to be her friend or not, but that only matters if Lily would take him or not. I took the break up scene for it is worth and I personally believe that Lily was done with the friendship, there's was nothing Snape could do to change that, and she didn't care what he did afterwards. Lily's tone was hostile, her words were accusatory, and her ears were deaf to his words. That to me shows she had firmly made up her mind that the friendship was done. She was pushing him away, not giving an ultimatum. If Snape changed a few days later, we honestly have no idea if Lily would take him back or not.

If I sound like a jerk, I'm sorry

I'm not entirely convinced Lily knew how bad his home life was, but I'll say for the sake of the arguement she did. Just because Snape needed Lily doesn't mean Lily wants Snape.
:tu: Lily did not have to want to be Snape's friend, even if he needed her.

What does Lily get out of being Snape's escape from his life? I'm sure she was okay with it the beginning and maybe liked it, but when Snape started doing things that made her mad, I don't she wanted to be his escape anymore. If Snape so desperately needed Lily so much, then why did he start doing things that made her mad in the first place?
:agree: Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyways, I know this sounds heartless, but I don't think it would have mattered what Snape wanted. A friendship is a joint-responsibilty. Each person has to as much effort and care as the other person for it to be an equal friendship. The moment one person decides the friendship is dead, it is dead. Snape can't make Lily want to be his friend anymore (like he can't make her love him), so anything he says in that attempt is futile.
Exactly. It wouldn't have been fair for Snape if Lily pretended much longer imo.

I never got it though. Did Lily love Snape like Snape loved Lily? Or was Lily's love for Snape in a friend way and not in a boyfriend, girlfriend way?

I never got it though. Did Lily love Snape like Snape loved Lily? Or was Lily's love for Snape in a friend way and not in a boyfriend, girlfriend way?
No, Snape loved Lily romantically, and Lily only loved Snape as a friend. That is what is in canon. In a post DH interview JKR mentioned that Lily might have loved Snape romantically had he not been drawn to such loathsome people or acts. Since, imo, Snape was drawn to loathsome acts until his dying day (bullying students), I don't see it as a possibility at all.

I never got it though. Did Lily love Snape like Snape loved Lily? Or was Lily's love for Snape in a friend way and not in a boyfriend, girlfriend way?



Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape

J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

Lily only loved Snape like a friend.

That is why I believe that Snape didn't become worried about Lily's safety suddenly when she was directly targeted...that makes little sense if she could have been killed by them at any time. There had to be more to it and in my opinion it was because Snape saw an opportunity to actually be with Lily romantically. At that point he allowed his old buried feelings to resurface and as his worry increased that she might be killed and he would not be able to be with her, his despair grew to the point where he was willing to go to Dumbledore. All hope was not lost because Voldemort was still going to kill Harry no matter what and would likely kill James as well - but if Dumbledore could keep Lily safe, Snape would have a chance of being with her - and without James or Harry in the picture to disturb things, imo. That also explains why Snape was so upset he wanted to die when Lily had died. All of Snape's hopes in that regard were dashed, imo.

I don't agree with this at all. IMO it is a huge over-simplification of Sev's emotional state. I don't think that Sev allowed himself to believe that Lily would ever be in danger - he was in complete denial about it until Voldemort told him he was going after the Potters becasue of the prophecy. When Snape went to Dumbledore it was because he didn't trust Voldemort to not kill Lily; Snape knew Voldemort would only do what suited him. So that is why Snape went to Dumbledore - simply because he was desperate to keep Lily alive. He didn't really care whether Harry and James lived or died, because he didn't think about them at all - he thought only of Lily.
His total despair was certainly not because he had lost the opportunity to be with Lily - Why didn't we see that despair when she married James? Sev's despair was because Lily was no more - she was dead and he didn't want to go on living in a world in which she didn't exist. I can understand that feeling perfectly!

I am married and I have children and I would be completely devastated if my husband and children were killed. This does not preclude me from understanding how Snape felt about Lily. When you love someone you care first about their safety and secondly about there happiness.

Nothing else makes sense to me because Snape behaved in a manner of one who was attempting to ensure the love of his life was spared - and not just so that she could 'exist as a happy individual' because imo, he would not have wanted to die if that was the case and also he would have wanted to ensure that James and Harry lived because that would make Lily happy, imo. Finally, Snape didn't try to kill Voldemort, which was the best way to keep Lily safe if his only goal was for her to 'exist and be happy'. But he didn't because that defeated his plans on two levels, imo; James would still be alive and with Lily and also, he'd likely die trying and never have a chance to be with her - aimo.
I think Snape was fully aware that he was no match for Voldemort and that to confront him would do absolutely nobody any good whatsoever. He's not a Gryffindor who will make the grand gesture - he is a cool headed Slytherin who wants the job done - and in this case the job is to protect Lily and the only person that can do that is Dumbledore. So Snape risks everything to get Dumbledore to protect Lily.
At this point he had no idea that Dumbledore would ask him to turn spy. He thought that Dumbledore might kill him and at the very least woul dhave him thrown into Azkaban. I'm sure he didn't expect to give Dumbledore the information and be allowed to walk away - he certainly didn't behave as if that was what he expected.
It is easy for us as readers to take what Dumbledore did for Snape for granted. Snape didn't have that luxury.

I don't agree with this at all. IMO it is a huge over-simplification of Sev's emotional state. I don't think that Sev allowed himself to believe that Lily would ever be in danger - he was in complete denial about it until Voldemort told him he was going after the Potters becasue of the prophecy. When Snape went to Dumbledore it was because he didn't trust Voldemort to not kill Lily; Snape knew Voldemort would only do what suited him. So that is why Snape went to Dumbledore - simply because he was desperate to keep Lily alive. He didn't really care whether Harry and James lived or died, because he didn't think about them at all - he thought only of Lily. His total despair was certainly not because he had lost the opportunity to be with Lily - Why didn't we see that despair when she married James? Sev's despair was because Lily was no more - she was dead and he didn't want to go on living in a world in which she didn't exist. I can understand that feeling perfectly! I am married and I have children and I would be completely devastated if my husband and children were killed. This does not preclude me from understanding how Snape felt about Lily. When you love someone you care first about their safety and secondly about there happiness.

Actually I share your point of view. The problem is, Dumbledore was portrayed as a very wise man and I believe he would share that view as well. I mean naturally a person is going to think of the safety of a person before their lifetime happiness when their life is in danger. However, if Dumbledore had understood that Snape meant that, I do not believe he would have been in the least bit disgusted. He would have understood and given Snape a gentle reminder that there were more lives at stake than just Lily's. But JKR made a point of Dumbledore being utterly disgusted and "Harry had never heard Dumbledore speak with so much contempt in his voice." Then JKR had Snape go silent and then concede to Dumbledore keeping the others safe also. She did not make Snape deny what Dumbledore was thinking or even quickly declare "but of course I mean keep them all safe!" Imo, JKR would not labor through that whole part and write it specifically in that way if it had no particular meaning.

I promise, I am looking at this in the light most favorable to Snape - I have no desire to cast a negative view on this. But realistically, unless I greatly twist the meaning of what was written, I cannot understand Dumbledore being disgusted (to such a great degree) unless Snape merited it. And Snape would not merit disgust - not even the tiniest bit - if the problem was merely that his focus was centered on Lily in a totally altruistic sense, imo. As you indicated, that would be a perfectly natural and normal reaction and I agree.

As to why Snape didn't show the same despair when Lily became James' girlfriend and later married her: at that point, imo, Snape was burying his feelings for Lily, trying to convince himself he didn't have emotions for her. There was nothing he could do to stop any of that from happening. However, when she was in danger on a daily basis by virtue of fighting in the Order against his group, he had to have realized that any DE member could capture and kill her at any time. Voldemort didn't target her directly, but her child and there was a chance that would spell her doom - unless Voldemort spared her as he asked - but Snape felt Lily still might die. But the thing is, he would have felt that Lily might die at his group's hands on a daily basis. Her chances for survival were not any better because the DE members wouldn't even think twice about sparing her life, whereas Voldemort might. So I feel there was more to Snape's sudden desire to ensure her safety. I am totally not saying that Snape "desired" Lily in the way Voldemort was thinking. Snape believed he was in love and his idea for Lily was pure in that sense; he would want marriage and all that, but he was thinking in terms of a relationship with Lily, imo.

I agree with the last portion you wrote, but I don't see how that changes anything relative to this first part. Nonetheless, I agree that Snape didn't know what Dumbledore would do - but I think Snape was willing to take the risk. :)

No, Snape loved Lily romantically, and Lily only loved Snape as a friend. That is what is in canon. In a post DH interview JKR mentioned that Lily might have loved Snape romantically had he not been drawn to such loathsome people or acts. Since, imo, Snape was drawn to loathsome acts until his dying day (bullying students), I don't see it as a possibility at all.

'Until his dying day'? :huh:

We don't see him bullying students during his final year as Headmaster at Hogwarts and indeed Rowling gives us a honking great clue that he actually protected some students, notably Ginny, Neville and Luna when he catches them trying to steal the Sword of Gryffindor -- he protects them from the cruelties of the Carrows by giving them a 'punishment' by bundling them off into the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid. Some punishment, that, eh? :)

Sorry, this is more Snape-related than Snape and Lily related :whistle: but I really, REALLY, couldn't let that one pass. :p

Sorry for the diversion. :)

However, if Dumbledore had understood that Snape meant that, I do not believe he would have been in the least bit disgusted. He would have understood and given Snape a gentle reminder that there were more lives at stake than just Lily's. But JKR made a point of Dumbledore being utterly disgusted and "Harry had never heard Dumbledore speak with so much contempt in his voice." Then JKR had Snape go silent and then concede to Dumbledore keeping the others safe also. She did not make Snape deny what Dumbledore was thinking - he gave in.
The wording is very specific:
"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore,"surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"
"I have - I have asked him-"
"You disgust me," said DUmbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice.

In a way Dumbledore is playing devils advocate here. And he asks something very specific which shows a certain astuteness on his part - If she means so much to you then surely LV will spare her - in exchange for the son?"
In other words SNape has gone to Voldemort and asked him to spare Lily -perhaps using the fact that he gave Voldemort the prophecy to persuade him "I gave you the prophecy - I gave you the child - spare the mother for me" And that is disgusting! To not care if Harry and James live or die is pretty callous! Snape only gives value to the lives of those he loves - namely Lily.
And by his very specific questioning Dumbledore is pointing this out to Snape. This does not mean that Snape wanted lily for himself - just that he wanted her to live - and he would do anything to keep her alive - not caring that her husband and child would die.

When I was a teenager I watched a film called "Sophy's choice" I could not watch it now. It is nearly the end of the film when we find out what Sophy's choice was - she was forced to choose between her children by the Nazi's. She never ever got over it - it haunted her forever. She did not want either child to die, but she choose one so one could live. She had no thought for the future, or how she could never live with herself after that.
And that is what I'm trying to say about Snape - He didn't think about how unhappy Lily would be with her husband and child dead he was too scared that she would die and that filled his mind. So much so that he was prepared to let his old enemy and more particularly an innocent baby die.
However we see a growth in Severus when he says "Lately only those whom I could not save" when asked about those whom he has watched die.
This is deliberate IMO because Jo is showing us that Snape has gone from a man prepard to let Harry and JAmes die to save Lily to one who only watches those he can't save die - he has come to value all human life - not just the lives of those whom he loves.

'Until his dying day'? :huh:

We don't see him bullying students during his final year as Headmaster at Hogwarts and indeed Rowling gives us a honking great clue that he actually protected some students, notably Ginny, Neville and Luna when he catches them trying to steal the Sword of Gryffindor -- he protects them from the cruelties of the Carrows by giving them a 'punishment' by bundling them off into the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid. Some punishment, that, eh? :)

Quote from JKR on the matter:
JKR: Yeh. He's spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book.
This was from a post DH interview :)
http://www.snapecanonsite.com/interviews2007.htm

According to JKR he was still a bully at the end of the book and I believe her :) Imo, bullying in any form is a loathsome act.

According to JKR he was still a bully at the end of the book and I believe her :) Imo, bullying in any form is a loathsome act.

But since Lily was alive when he wasn't a teacher yet, and her love or lack of such can't have been influenced by his bullying or restraining from it, I think Jo was referring only to the Death Eater activities when she made that quote.

This and I personally don't really count extra-textual references as canon, so I'd be happy to hear a text-based argument for Lily not being ever able to love Snape (if that's your point). I'm undecided on that matter, personally.

But since Lily was alive when he wasn't a teacher yet, and her love or lack of such can't have been influenced by his bullying or restraining from it, I think Jo was referring only to the Death Eater activities when she made that quote.

This and I personally don't really count extra-textual references as canon, so I'd be happy to hear a text-based argument for Lily not being ever able to love Snape (if that's your point). I'm undecided on that matter, personally.

Imo, Snape had that same quality as a teenager. In memory number five where they were discussing his friends, Snape behaved in a bullying manner toward Lily at which point she became quite upset. Prior to that, Snape behaved in a similar manner with Petunia, imo. Thus, I would conclude that it was a behavior that was a part of Snape's character from a young age.

Personally, I didn't draw a correlation between Snape's behavior in this regard and Lily's ability to develop romantic feelings for Snape because JKR had said that Snape's dark interests prohibited that from happening in any case. However, if what Lily said to James in SWM was an accurate account of how she felt about him (James), then I would agree that Snape would have to cease behaving in a bullying manner in order for Lily to develop feelings beyond friendship for him - in addition to his not being interested in the dark arts. :)

The wording is very specific:
"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore,"surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"
"I have - I have asked him-"
"You disgust me," said DUmbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice.

In a way Dumbledore is playing devils advocate here. And he asks something very specific which shows a certain astuteness on his part - If she means so much to you then surely LV will spare her - in exchange for the son?"
In other words SNape has gone to Voldemort and asked him to spare Lily -perhaps using the fact that he gave Voldemort the prophecy to persuade him "I gave you the prophecy - I gave you the child - spare the mother for me" And that is disgusting! To not care if Harry and James live or die is pretty callous! Snape only gives value to the lives of those he loves - namely Lily.
And by his very specific questioning Dumbledore is pointing this out to Snape. This does not mean that Snape wanted lily for himself - just that he wanted her to live - and he would do anything to keep her alive - not caring that her husband and child would die.

I respect your view, and I agree with you - I think Dumbledore was disgusted that Snape would ask for Lily to be spared in exchange for Harry and James' lives. But the fact that Dumbledore began with "if she means so much to you" indicates that Snape's motivation was also a part of his consideration. Dumbledore's voice was filled with contempt and Snape shrank a little according to Harry. Imo, Snape's shrinking in response to Dumbledore indicates that he realized Dumbledore had uncovered the truth behind his request to Voldemort. Again, Dumbledore knew that Snape's desire was not negative (as Voldemort believed), he fully understood that Snape believed himself to be in love with Lily in the purer sense of the word. But he also recognized the consequences of Snape's request to Voldemort: Lily alone would be alive and her family dead. And Dumbledore realized what that would mean to Snape on a personal level: a chance to express his emotions for Lily in a relationship with her in the future.

It is not unnatural for a person who feels in love with someone to want to be in a relationship with them - that is a most normal desire for those who are in love. Dumbledore knew that as he had been in love himself before with someone who he could not be with, imo.

In addition, this was merely the beginning of the conversation, Dumbledore goes on to further address only the motivation, not the exchange:

"You do not care, then about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

"Hide them all, then," he croaked. "Keep her - them - safe. Please."

Dumbledore specifically says 'what you want' - he is still speaking of the reason for his disgust and it is now about Snape's motivation, not his deed. Snape does not immediately declare that Dumbledore has it all wrong, he goes silent. Then JKR makes Snape answer in a conciliatory fashion. Again, just reading the text in the most reasonable fashion (from my perspective) - I do not see any point in making Snape hesitate in his response and then concede to Dumbledore's request as if it is against his will for no reason.

Finally:

"And what will you give me in return, Severus?"

"In - in return?" Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, "Anything.""

In the end, Snape gapes at Dumbledore's request for him to give something in return. If you think about it, Snape giving Dumbledore the warning would mean that Dumbledore owed Snape something in return. So naturally it is surprising that Dumbledore would want even more from Snape (from his point of view). But he went silent for a long moment and considered the matter. And Snape realized that Dumbledore fully understood that Snape still only wished for Lily to be protected and as such, his request had been altogether personal. It was not merely giving Dumbledore information about Voldemort's devious plans - it was a request that he protect Lily, on Snape's behalf. As such, Snape responded in kind: he would do Anything to keep Lily protected. Imo, that response did not extend to Harry and James because if Dumbledore had said "look, I will protect Harry and James, but not Lily" Snape would not have been willing to do "anything" in relation to such a promise.

And once Lily had died, Snape said, "I thought...you were going...to keep her...safe..." Not the family, but Lily - that is what Snape had issued his "anything" promise for.

Note too, Dumbledore is not stricturing Snape for "being in love with Lily" but merely because his plan to keep her alive while her family died was a selfish request that Snape made on account of a possilble future happiness for himself. Dumbledore understands and reveres love, he called it the "best of Snape" - but the best part did not extend to coveting another man's wife, rather just the love itself, imo, because if she were not married to James, it would be altogether wonderful that Snape loved Lily and wished to have a romantic relationship with her.

Well that was longwinded of me :lol: - but hopefully I have clarified my view a little more.

When I was a teenager I watched a film called "Sophy's choice" I could not watch it now. It is nearly the end of the film when we find out what Sophy's choice was - she was forced to choose between her children by the Nazi's. She never ever got over it - it haunted her forever. She did not want either child to die, but she choose one so one could live. She had no thought for the future, or how she could never live with herself after that.
And that is what I'm trying to say about Snape - He didn't think about how unhappy Lily would be with her husband and child dead he was too scared that she would die and that filled his mind. So much so that he was prepared to let his old enemy and more particularly an innocent baby die.

I don't understand the analogy you are making. What choice was Snape presented with that placed him in a dilemna? Do you mean whether or not to place his own life at risk? (Meanwhile I do feel deeply for Sophy and all of those like her who underwent those very real and horrific events in the past.)

However we see a growth in Severus when he says "Lately only those whom I could not save" when asked about those whom he has watched die.
This is deliberate IMO because Jo is showing us that Snape has gone from a man prepard to let Harry and JAmes die to save Lily to one who only watches those he can't save die - he has come to value all human life - not just the lives of those whom he loves.

Agreed. However, I would qualify the final phrase to - 'not just the life of the one he was in love with'. I respect your view that Snape's reasoning was wholly altruistic here, but I sincerely cannot fathom that he would place his life at risk (of a sudden) and sweat bullets in the way he did - then despair over her in the way he did, if his only motivation had been to keep her safe - in such a way that he would never see her again or have a chance to express his feelings for her.

According to JKR he was still a bully at the end of the book and I believe her :)

She also says in those interviews that he wasn't a hero and then she says he was.

I don't take all of JKR's pronouncements as strict canon. :)

Only when they are consistent with what she has written. ;)

In any case, I've made my point that we see no textual evidence that Snape was bullying students up until the time of his death. I've already cited the example of Ginny, Neville and Luna. :)

Imo, bullying in any form is a loathsome act.

I don't think anyone here is disputing that. :)

Cathy, great post. I completely agree. :tu: (To this day I cannot watch Sophie's Choice. I saw it once and that was enough. :( )

Wicked ... I agree with you that Snape would have needed to change, radically, for Lily's sake, for her to resume the friendship -- or even have considered him romantically. :whistle:

I'm not a huge fan of the Lily/Sev ship. I'm fine with Sev's unrequited love for her ... I am not sure they would have been compatible as a couple, even if Sev had forsaken his Death Eater ways. He's just so dark and intense, bless him, and Lily is just the complete opposite.

Imo, Snape had that same quality as a teenager. In memory number five where they were discussing his friends, Snape behaved in a bullying manner toward Lily at which point she became quite upset.

By this definition I'm a bully too :( I argue with my friends and sometimes refuse to listen to them when I'm convinced I'm right, does that make me a bully? I think this is an overstatement.

By this definition I'm a bully too :( I argue with my friends and sometimes refuse to listen to them when I'm convinced I'm right, does that make me a bully? I think this is an overstatement.

I should have quoted the portion of the memory I meant. I wasn't referring to his not listening to her and their general differences of opinion. I was referring to Snape saying:

Snape's whole face contorted and he sputtered, "Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to - I won't let you-"

At which point Lily cut him off, because she had no intention of being bullied into doing anything whatsoever, imo, independent of Snape's opinion, view, or desire. Basically, Lily responded "Let me? Let me?" meaning no, you will not bully me into compliance with your wishes.

Snape backtracked after that - but this portion of the memory did reveal his his nature in that regard, imo. :)

I won't let you - that's a phrase I use everyday! And it just means expression of a standpoint, in my opinion. I think Severus was perfectly aware he was incapable of forbidding Lily anything; but that was a very emotional part for him, because he knew the whole story while Lily didn't, and I think he was bursting with desire to tell her there's a different side of James's self-sacrificial behaviour (as Severus saw the matter) but couldn't. We can see that - he's stuttering. I don't think that's bullying at all, it's just enormous frustration for lack of workds strong enough to express his suffering under this, as he appartently saw it, great injustice.

I won't let you - that's a phrase I use everyday! And it just means expression of a standpoint, in my opinion. I think Severus was perfectly aware he was incapable of forbidding Lily anything; but that was a very emotional part for him, because he knew the whole story while Lily didn't, and I think he was bursting with desire to tell her there's a different side of James's self-sacrificial behaviour (as Severus saw the matter) but couldn't.

But he did tell her: "You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too!" And he had already discussed his "theories" with her about Lupin being a werewolf. The only thing Lily didn't know about was Sirius telling Snape how to stop the tree - but that would have not changed a thing from Lily's point of view because she knew that Snape went into the tunnel expecting to find a werewolf - that is - he knew he would be facing danger if he followed Sirius' advice.


We can see that - he's stuttering. I don't think that's bullying at all, it's just enormous frustration for lack of workds strong enough to express his suffering under this, as he appartently saw it, great injustice.

I respect your view, but I believe Snape's overwrought emotions were brought on by jealousy for James. That is what he is talking about: "Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? [...] "He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!" the words seemed wrenched form him against his will. "And he's not...everyone things...big Quidditch hero-". Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead. "I know James Potter's an arrogant toerag," she said, [...] the moment she had insulted James Potter, his (Snape's) whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape's step."

So he was not stuttering out of frustration for lack of words strong enough to express his suffering for a great injustice, imo, but rather because he was overcome with jealousy. And that is why, imo, he attempted to bully Lily - on no account did he want her to regard James as a hero and worse, become friendly with James as a result, aimo.

ISnape's whole face contorted and he sputtered, "Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to - I won't let you-"

Bold mine

Those words tell me that Snape thought of them capable of sending another student to be bitten or killed and he did not want Lily to associate with or think highly of such students IMO.

He didn't express what he wanted, because he couldn't provide proof and he knew it; and he could see Lily believed James over him, and THAT, I think, was driving him crazy. Hence the strong wording. But not bullying, by any definition, in my opinion.

I respect your view, but it does meet my definition of bullying behavior because Snape straight out told Lily he was not going to allow her to do something independent of how she felt about the matter. But In all honesty, if this was the only occassion, I would not have concluded that Snape behaved in a bullying manner in his youth. His behavior with Petunia, on the train in SWM, and the final Lily/Snape memory also showed the same type of behavior, so it was all of these things together that supported my conclusion, not just the one conversation. That was merely one example. :)

Not really, in my opinion. It could have been called that if he had actually tried to do something about stopping her or at least intended to - but judging by how he backtracked when he realized how he was phrasing his frustration, I doubt that was the case. He obviously didn't mean any forceful actions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
ISnape's whole face contorted and he sputtered, "Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to - I won't let you-"
Bold mine

Those words tell me that Snape thought of them capable of sending another student to be bitten or killed and he did not want Lily to associate with or think highly of such students IMO.


:tu: TGW – I agree.
I thought that he was about to say - "I won't let you be next"

I know that’s just my opinion, but I do feel it fits as well as other possibilities I’ve heard of. It also explains why he doesn’t go on to clarify – he can’t explain what he means without breaking his word to Dumbledore.

But In all honesty, if this was the only occassion, I would not have concluded that Snape behaved in a bullying manner in his youth. His behavior with Petunia, on the train in SWM, and the final Lily/Snape memory also showed the same type of behavior, so it was all of these things together that supported my conclusion, not just the one conversation. That was merely one example. :)

It is certainly true to say Petunia & Snape did not have a good relationship, both were unkind to each other. If you are referring to the incident where a branch fell & caught Petunia on the shoulder – then I have to say I see nothing that indicates the action was deliberately do by Snape. This does not mean I don’t think he did it – I do. I just think that it was as deliberate as Harry was when he made the glass vanish at the zoo. If you recall once Harry was aware that it was possible that he had ‘made weird stuff happen’ he very quickly identified that as something he had done. I think the situation was very similar, its just that Snape knew as soon as it happened that it was his fault. That’s not an admission of forethought IMO.

As for the train – None of the boys acted well. To me Snape’s behaviour there did not look like bullying. It looked like he was retorting to a stranger’s rudeness; not a great way of handling the situation but not bullying IMO.

Anyway I don’t expect anyone to feel compelled to agree with me – just sharing my interpretation of the situation. :)