Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

I won't once again go into the reasons that probably influenced Sev's actions (which IMO were a humungus mistake on his part) but what actually happened much late to cause Harry to give his second son one of his names Severus, Harry - it seems has realises something that several posters perhaps don't seem to want to acknowlege - that Severus for all his faults etc did try and make up for it all in the end and i doing so spent the last 17 years of his life in great danger - all in the name of love for a young green-eyed, red haired witch called Lily who was the first person to befriend this lonely boy - initially unconditionally and show concern for his well-being by asking how things were going at home?

I will now also re-post this onto the Snape forum a it may well be more appropriate for that forum.

What a tragic story - and it seems Harry (and most likely his soulmate Ginny) realised and decided with a lot of thought that their second son deserved the name of the two wizards that had the most influence on Harry when he first started at Hogwart and who were no longer in his life due to their untimely deaths.

Gosh what a long winded rant that was - but at least I feel better for it and I ask you doubters why Harry would give the son so very like him the middle name of Severus and tell his son that he was named for the two bravest wizards he had ever known....

I will now re-post this on the Snape forum as it is probably more appropriate for that foum.

Gosh what a long winded rant that was - but at least I feel better for it and I ask you doubters why Harry would give the son so very like him the middle name of Severus and tell his son that he was named for the two bravest wizards he had ever known....

Well in response to your question, I can only say that we would have to consult Harry about that as he did not give any reason in canon. We leapt ahead 19 years and Harry had done it and remarked that Snape had been brave. We are left to make what we will of that. I personally can't make heads or tails of it, so for the moment I have given up trying.

I do agree that Snape tried to make up for what he'd done to Lily during the latter part of his life, and that is admirable. However, I do not find his emotions for her, nor his emotions for James and Harry admirable, so that rather mitigated my admiration for Snape to a very great degree. I also do not believe that canon provided sufficient information on Snape's activities to show that he suffered any real hardship in Lily's honor except for the killing of Dumbledore. Finally, I do not feel that canon showed Snape to have exhibited any bravery in Lily's honor that was, in my estimation, any greater than that shown by nearly every major character we read about in the story (and in some cases far less).

Thus, I could not come to a reasonable explanation for Harry's words or naming based on anything to do with Snape in relation to Lily. However, I respect the views others have on this issue based on their interpretations. :)

I respect your view, but it does meet my definition of bullying behavior because Snape straight out told Lily he was not going to allow her to do something independent of how she felt about the matter. But In all honesty, if this was the only occassion, I would not have concluded that Snape behaved in a bullying manner in his youth. His behavior with Petunia, on the train in SWM, and the final Lily/Snape memory also showed the same type of behavior, so it was all of these things together that supported my conclusion, not just the one conversation. That was merely one example. :)

I respect your opinion, but if we look at it that way, in the same way I think Lily's attitude could also be taken as domineering IMO. She looks to be the dominant partner in their relationship IMO. In all the memories, Snape seems to be listening to her, trying to say something assertive ( when he was warning her about James and Sirius in the werewolf memory) and then back off when she glares him down or something IMO. Even the night after the SWM, it is Lily who speaks, takes a decision and sends off Snape IMO.

Though I don't see it this way actually. I think it is a mark of just how much Snape loves her and respects her, that he's able to walk away that night and also listen to her everytime IMO.

hopefully I have clarified my view a little more.
I understood your view perfectly - I just don't agree with it. IMO there is nothing in the text to imply that Snape wanted to save Lily with the intention of having a relationship with her, or that that ois the reason why Dumbledore was disgusted. To me it is clear that Snape wanted to save only Lily and that was what disgusted Dumbledore.

I don't understand the analogy you are making. What choice was Snape presented with that placed him in a dilemna? Do you mean whether or not to place his own life at risk?

Okay what I was trying to say is that when the people we love are threatened with death the choices we make tend to be made with only the immediate future in mind. Snape wanted to save Lily - he didn't consider that she would be miserable in the future because James and Harry were dead - just that she would be alive. As with Sophy's choice - she didn't consider that she would never get over choosing - she only knew that she would rather one child died than both. I am sorry it is a poor analogy but I'm trying to make the point that these are emotional decisions not intellectual or logical ones.


I sincerely cannot fathom that he would place his life at risk (of a sudden) and sweat bullets in the way he did - then despair over her in the way he did, if his only motivation had been to keep her safe - in such a way that he would never see her again or have a chance to express his feelings for her.
I can - quite easily. Snape loved Lily. Her life was more important to him than anything, regardless of whether he would be able to share that with her or not. If you love someone - really love someone then this is how you feel and behave. Snape had been in denial for a very long time regarding the danger that Lily could be in from Voldemort - it took a unambiguous threat to her life to snap him out of it.

I do not feel that canon showed Snape to have exhibited any bravery in Lily's honor that was, in my estimation, any greater than that shown by nearly every major character we read about in the story (and in some cases far less).
I completely disagree with this. Snape's life was in danger from the moment he went back to the graveyard. He knew that Voldemort could kill him, but he went back anyway. From then on in the tiniest slip from Snape could have resulted in discovery by Voldemort and death. Dumbeldore says that he spied "At great personal risk" at Snape's trial and I believe him. And that was before Voldemort returned. We know that some of the death eaters were suspicious of Snape, and that this suspicion might even have affected Voldemort who sent Pettigrew to "assist" him - or rather keep an eye on him.
There are few things more dangerous than being a spy. There is no room for failure.
I find think it is grossly unfair to people who do this in real life to suggest there is not much risk involved.

Okay what I was trying to say is that when the people we love are threatened with death the choices we make tend to be made with only the immediate future in mind. Snape wanted to save Lily - he didn't consider that she would be miserable in the future because James and Harry were dead - just that she would be alive. As with Sophy's choice - she didn't consider that she would never get over choosing - she only knew that she would rather one child died than both. I am sorry it is a poor analogy but I'm trying to make the point that these are emotional decisions not intellectual or logical ones.

I like the analogy - it reminds me of one of Solomans Judgments, where two women are both claimiing a baby as thier own. when he decides to chop it in half so both women can have half - one woman steps aside & lets the other woman havve the baby. At this point Solaman admits that his provious judgment was a test & that only the true mother would care enough to give up the child so it would live. In the end mother & baby were reunited.

moral - if you really love someone you want whats best for them; even if it hurts you. :)

I understood your view perfectly - I just don't agree with it. IMO there is nothing in the text to imply that Snape wanted to save Lily with the intention of having a relationship with her, or that that ois the reason why Dumbledore was disgusted. To me it is clear that Snape wanted to save only Lily and that was what disgusted Dumbledore.

Well I respect your view as well, but I guess we'd have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

I can - quite easily. Snape loved Lily. Her life was more important to him than anything, regardless of whether he would be able to share that with her or not. If you love someone - really love someone then this is how you feel and behave.

The only problem I have with this is that if you love someone, really love someone romantically, then you act like James. You find your soulmate and it is worth everything in the world to you to be with that person. You do not wait to express your love for the person when they are suddenly in direct danger of being killed, aimo. Love is not like a water faucet, one doesn't turn it off and on when they are desirous of bathing in it. It is constant and for it to have any real basis, any real meaning, it is expressed through selflessness and giving when it is not required, imo. Keep in mind I am speaking of romantic love - that is what Snape claimed to have for Lily, not the love of a friend or of a sister or humanity in general.

Snape had been in denial for a very long time regarding the danger that Lily could be in from Voldemort - it took a unambiguous threat to her life to snap him out of it.

And this is my point exactly. If you are really "in love" with someone (romatic love), you do not submerge your fears with denial because the idea that they might die is too compelling. Look at Snape's reaction to Lily's death in the end - he was absolutely distraught, he said he wanted to die. He acted like a husband might act over his wife or a boyfriend over their girlfriend who had been romantically involved for a time. That was what Snape claimed - he did not say he was distraught over a lost friend, but over his romantic love (as shown by his patronus).

Lily had defied Voldemort thrice - she was a hot target - Snape could not avoid Lily's participation with the Order. His denial (if his emotions for Lily were similar to that which he displayed upon her death) would be completely and utterly futile - and I don't mean in the sense of his merely sobbing at night - I mean that Snape would have not been able to be in denial, he would have taken action, imo. That is not to say that denial under normal circumstances is impossible, what I am saying is that denial in the face of working with a gang that was bent on killing the person you are tryng to deny your strong romantic feelings for is impossible, imo.

The love you are describing that Snape had, imo is not romantic love - rather it is benevolent love that is completely selfless and monk-like, like what one would have for a sister or a friend. Monks have no role in romance, imo. So that is my problem with Snape merely wishing to keep Lily safe with no further motive.

I completely disagree with this. Snape's life was in danger from the moment he went back to the graveyard. He knew that Voldemort could kill him, but he went back anyway. From then on in the tiniest slip from Snape could have resulted in discovery by Voldemort and death. Dumbeldore says that he spied "At great personal risk" at Snape's trial and I believe him. And that was before Voldemort returned. We know that some of the death eaters were suspicious of Snape, and that this suspicion might even have affected Voldemort who sent Pettigrew to "assist" him - or rather keep an eye on him.
There are few things more dangerous than being a spy. There is no room for failure. I find think it is grossly unfair to people who do this in real life to suggest there is not much risk involved.

That is not what I meant. :lol: What I said was that in my view, Snape did not show anymore bravery in his acts on behalf of the order than others (and less in some cases). For example: spying is dangerous and Kingsley understood that danger on a daily basis, before a lot more people, and with the risk of Azkaban if anyone found out (and we know Azkaban and the dementors was as bad as death). And if he was discovered as a spy by a death eater, he would simply be killed. As I saw it, his bravery was boundless. Arthur took the same risks on a slightly lesser level more akin to Snape's from what we know. He played a double role at work while he could, but also went out on dangerous missions - one that we know of which nearly ended in his death via Nagini. Lupin too spied among unfriendly werewolves and risked being caught by Greyback doing so - insta death for him if he was. Plus he was out on constant missions as well during OOTP which we didn't hear anything about - not to mention throughout DH he was directly targeted for death by Voldemort. We saw first hand the danger and risk that Hermione and Ron faced in their efforts and there were many more (like Moody, hestia, etc.) who were involved in ways that neither Harry nor we knew of.

We know that Snape also risked his life and was in danger, but he met with Voldemort intermittently and his other duties were far less dangerous than those I described. Everyone had the same premise: one slip up and you are dead, just like Snape. So I fail to see how Snape was shown to display more bravery or even equal bravery to some of the others in canon. I am not discounting the possibility altogether because we did not see everything, but in as far as what canon shows, that is my belief.

I know many won't agree with me and I totally respect your view and that of any others who feel distinctly. :)

Well in response to your question, I can only say that we would have to consult Harry about that as he did not give any reason in canon. We leapt ahead 19 years and Harry had done it and remarked that Snape had been brave. We are left to make what we will of that. I personally can't make heads or tails of it, so for the moment I have given up trying.

I do agree that Snape tried to make up for what he'd done to Lily during the latter part of his life, and that is admirable. However, I do not find his emotions for her, nor his emotions for James and Harry admirable, so that rather mitigated my admiration for Snape to a very great degree. I also do not believe that canon provided sufficient information on Snape's activities to show that he suffered any real hardship in Lily's honor except for the killing of Dumbledore. Finally, I do not feel that canon showed Snape to have exhibited any bravery in Lily's honor that was, in my estimation, any greater than that shown by nearly every major character we read about in the story (and in some cases far less).

Thus, I could not come to a reasonable explanation for Harry's words or naming based on anything to do with Snape in relation to Lily. However, I respect the views others have on this issue based on their interpretations. :)

IMHO, by naming his child after Severus, Harry is ackowledging the purity and power of Snape's love for Lily. Harry is not suggesting that Snape is a good or even a redeemed man, just that his bravery and sacrifice meant a lot to Harry, and that he has forgiven him, just as he has forgiven Albus. As Snape died before Harry was aware of Snape's true motives, Harry is showing his gratitude by naming his son after him. And apart from that, I think JK names the kid that to show just how crucial the relationships between those three characters are the series, and to give the series an aesthetic sort of ending. Poetic license!

Also the fact that he told his son was named after two of the bravest etc wizards he ever knew.......

Also the fact that he told his son was named after two of the bravest etc wizards he ever knew.......
He didn't say that. He said that he was named for two Headmasters. And that one was probably the bravest man he ever knew.

The only problem I have with this is that if you love someone, really love someone romantically, then you act like James. You find your soulmate and it is worth everything in the world to you to be with that person.

Have you read Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Othello, Arthurian legends, Sense & Sensibility, Byron’s romantic poems, etc? All of these show people acting very differently to James when they love. There is no single way that one has to behave when one is in love. People are unique; surely their reactions are likely to be equally unique?

Love is not like a water faucet, one doesn't turn it off and on when they are desirous of bathing in it.

Acting on love & feeling love are different. I was under the impression that Snape never stopped feeling love; of course, your interpretation may be different.

It is very common for people to misunderstand denial – it has passed into the common vernacular and the actually meaning of technical terms is often lost or distorted when this happens. Denial is not a conscious choice. It is a powerful psychological defence and is not under the conscious direction of the affected person. Its purpose is to guard the psyche from a situation, information or emotions that threaten to overwhelm the person.

The love you are describing that Snape had, imo is not romantic love - rather it is benevolent love that is completely selfless and monk-like, like what one would have for a sister or a friend. Monks have no role in romance, imo. So that is my problem with Snape merely wishing to keep Lily safe with no further motive.

I don’t understand - the description you give of Snape’s love for Lily does not sound very different from mine, except I don’t see a ‘benevolent love that is completely selfless and monk-like’ being something that cannot encompass romantic love. That said I do disagree on your views on monks & romance; historically becoming a monk or a nun could be a reaction to not being able to be with the object of your love. So maybe that explains the disparity? :hmm:

Have you read Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Othello, Arthurian legends, Sense & Sensibility, Byron’s romantic poems, etc? All of these show people acting very differently to James when they love. There is no single way that one has to behave when one is in love. People are unique; surely their reactions are likely to be equally unique?

No. That is, I was forced to read Othello and R&J. I find the depictions of the men in those types of books a little too feminine for my tastes personally, but I respect the fact that others enjoy the books. I mostly read sci-fi, fantasy, adventure, and mystery.

Nonetheless, that was not the point I was making. I was not speaking of "every way a person acts when they are in love". I was speaking of one very specific thing. The way Snape acted on his romantic emotions for Lily helps to elucidate the type of "love" he felt for her, imo.

Acting on love & feeling love are different. I was under the impression that Snape never stopped feeling love; of course, your interpretation may be different. It is very common for people to misunderstand denial – it has passed into the common vernacular and the actually meaning of technical terms is often lost or distorted when this happens. Denial is not a conscious choice. It is a powerful psychological defence and is not under the conscious direction of the affected person. Its purpose is to guard the psyche from a situation, information or emotions that threaten to overwhelm the person.

Maybe we are all talking about the same thing and using different words. I do believe Snape buried his feelings for Lily, but rather than 'deny' them, I feel he had to have submerged them. Imo, that is the only way he could have worked with a gang that was daily bent on killing her along with the other Order members. Imo, his feelings resurfaced when her son was targeted because he knew that it likely meant the entire family would be killed and he saw an opportunity for extracting Lily out of the situation alive. The feelings Snape had were romantic in nature, so naturally he would wish to be with her, imo.

I don’t understand - the description you give of Snape’s love for Lily does not sound very different from mine, except I don’t see a ‘benevolent love that is completely selfless and monk-like’ being something that cannot encompass romantic love. That said I do disagree on your views on monks & romance; historically becoming a monk or a nun could be a reaction to not being able to be with the object of your love. So maybe that explains the disparity? :hmm:

I think you misunderstood me; I have no view on monks and romance - I was using the term monk-like with respect to its true definition. To clarify the point I was making, sisterly-brotherly love, love for humanity and romantic love are all different things. Snape was written to have felt romantic emotions for Lily. There is no canon to indicate that Snape was feeling sisterly love for Lily at the time he sought to protect her. Indeed, while pleading for her safety and upon her death, he was portrayed as one who was romantically besotten, imo.

IMHO, by naming his child after Severus, Harry is ackowledging the purity and power of Snape's love for Lily. Harry is not suggesting that Snape is a good or even a redeemed man, just that his bravery and sacrifice meant a lot to Harry, and that he has forgiven him, just as he has forgiven Albus.

I respect your interpretation, but explanation does not work for me, personally. As I said, I can't make heads or tails of it. The canon we actually have doesn't lead to any of the above conclusions in my opinion. For instance, as desperately as Harry was attempting to convince Ron that he had sisterly love for Hermione during the camping scenes in DH, I do not believe that he would consider being romantically in love with Hermione, Ron's wife, throughout his entire life something pure and powerful. Imo, Harry would feel it was wrong and self-debilitating. I agree Harry said he felt Snape was brave, but that doesn't help explain the Epilogue naming imo. JKR said Harry forgave Snape, but she also said Harry knew that Snape loathed him (thus, his father also) until the day he died. Snape never apologized for the way he mistreated Harry and JKR said he was the same man he'd been during the series when he died as well (from a behavioral standpoint) - which means if he had lived, he would have gone on treating Harry the same way (and everyone else). Finally, imo, Snape didn't sacrifice his life, but rather spent his life serving pennance for his deeds as a death eater (including his part in causing the death of Harry's parents) rather than having gone to Azkaban with the rest of his DE comrades. So for me personally, the naming bit doesn't make any sense in light of these factors.

Makes perfect sense to me for those reasons. It seems that many females see the facts in a different light to males judging by many of the posts on the forum. I wonder why - is it our sense of the romantic and tragic being different to males idea of the romantic and tragic?

The only problem I have with this is that if you love someone, really love someone romantically, then you act like James. You find your soulmate and it is worth everything in the world to you to be with that person. You do not wait to express your love for the person when they are suddenly in direct danger of being killed, aimo. Love is not like a water faucet, one doesn't turn it off and on when they are desirous of bathing in it. It is constant and for it to have any real basis, any real meaning, it is expressed through selflessness and giving when it is not required, imo. Keep in mind I am speaking of romantic love - that is what Snape claimed to have for Lily, not the love of a friend or of a sister or humanity in general.


Sorry to burst your bubble Wick but while I agree with you that is the way you should love, nobody loves like that - why is there such a high divorce rate? Why before divorce was acceptable were there so many unhappy marriages? Because nobody can love perfectly.

As soon as you start saying "If A really loved B they would have behaved in this way" you are on very sticky ground, because you are imposing your values and your experience onto someone else who has a very different set of values and life experience. This is why marriage counsellors have to be impartial, even when it may seem obvious that one person of the couple is "in the wrong"; blaming the other person for the imperfections in a relationship does not get anyone anywhere.

If you start to think "If you loved me you would do this" then you are getting into the realms of emotional blackmail. This doesn't mean that you should be taken for a ride by any abusive control freak who says he loves you though. If someone's behaviour is unacceptable to you then you tell them - as Lily did to Snape. But it is important to stress that it is the behaviour you dislike not the person.

I really don't need to be told what love is or should be like. I have been married for 17 years and over that time my husband and I have gone through some pretty tough times. Love hurts - if you love someone they will hurt you at some point. The most important thing in a marriage is being able to forgive - and that includes forgiving yourself for the times you mess up.

Have you read Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Othello, Arthurian legends, Sense & Sensibility, Byron’s romantic poems, etc? All of these show people acting very differently to James when they love. There is no single way that one has to behave when one is in love. People are unique; surely their reactions are likely to be equally unique?
:tu: Exactly!



And this is my point exactly. If you are really "in love" with someone (romatic love), you do not submerge your fears with denial because the idea that they might die is too compelling.

Where is that written?

When I was young I had very strong views on what love should or shouldn't be and no experience.
Now I have expoerience and no views on what love should or shouldn't be.

People don't stop having mental health problems because they fall in love.

Snape was always in denial that he and Lily were on opposing sides


Lily had defied Voldemort thrice - she was a hot target - Snape could not avoid Lily's participation with the Order. His denial (if his emotions for Lily were similar to that which he displayed upon her death) would be completely and utterly futile - and I don't mean in the sense of his merely sobbing at night - I mean that Snape would have not been able to be in denial, he would have taken action, imo. That is not to say that denial under normal circumstances is impossible, what I am saying is that denial in the face of working with a gang that was bent on killing the person you are tryng to deny your strong romantic feelings for is impossible, imo.


On the contrary I would say that the greater the risk, the higher the likelyhood of denial. Denial is a mental defence mechanism and would be unnecessary if there was no real risk. The reason people go into denial is because they cannot even begin to face the thing that they are denying - it is too huge for them to cope with. The possibility of Lily being killed by the organisation Snape was a member of fits perfectly into this category IMO. Denial is not logical - that's why it's called denial - because it is denying something that is really obvious.
It is very common for people to misunderstand denial – it has passed into the common vernacular and the actually meaning of technical terms is often lost or distorted when this happens. Denial is not a conscious choice. It is a powerful psychological defence and is not under the conscious direction of the affected person. Its purpose is to guard the psyche from a situation, information or emotions that threaten to overwhelm the person.
:tu: Exactly!


For example: spying is dangerous and Kingsley understood that danger on a daily basis, before a lot more people, and with the risk of Azkaban if anyone found out (and we know Azkaban and the dementors was as bad as death). And if he was discovered as a spy by a death eater, he would simply be killed. As I saw it, his bravery was boundless. Arthur took the same risks on a slightly lesser level more akin to Snape's from what we know. He played a double role at work while he could, but also went out on dangerous missions - one that we know of which nearly ended in his death via Nagini. Lupin too spied among unfriendly werewolves and risked being caught by Greyback doing so - insta death for him if he was.
IMO Kingsley and Arthur while both brave did not risk their lives as Snape did by "going behind enemy lines". Although Remus also went behind enemy lines he did not do it for as long as Snape, nor as effectively. Not only that but Snape was regularly in the presence of Voldemort and had to lie to him - someone who prided himself that he always knew when someone was lying to him. Bearing in mind that this was a wizard that few people even dared to name I think that took more courage than any of the characters you mentioned.

Everyone had the same premise: one slip up and you are dead, just like Snape. So I fail to see how Snape was shown to display more bravery or even equal bravery to some of the others in canon.
But Snape was actually in the lions Den as it were. Nobody else was. Everybody risked there lives to some extent, but for Snape the danger was extreme. Like a CIA agent becoming Osama Bin Laden's right hand man.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
He was scared ,as any person would be. had he not been spying on her for weeks since he found out of her magic,he was fearful of what lily would think of him knowing this fact. Lily was very preety as a child, and snape knew this , i do not think that if snape had been a 'muggle' snape would wont much to do with her. Snape had said to petunia '' wouldn't spy on you..you're a muggle'' [[or something along those lines.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Snape introduced her to magic , a whole new world ,after she found out he was telling the truth of course lily would still be friends with snape, He was her only link , for nearly 2 years to the magical world.Things like that have to bring people closer together, and that it did

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
Snape loved lily , and lily loved him, as a friend. They became extremely close whilst still in the muggle world therefore entering the magical one very much together. Lily was extremely protective of sev and wanted the best for him , she never wanted him to hang round with the 'bad' people who later went on to becoming death eaters. Rowling revealed to us snape and lily could have become an 'item' if snape wasnt obsessed with the dark arts.Snape saw lily as an escape from the agony at home and she just seemed so perfect , and he growed to love her. The friendship was equal , they had been best friends, if only snape hadnt sad that awful word!

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
Yes , i do think they had to work to maintain the friendship , as does everyone. The house system became a kind of barrier between them and they tried very hard to overcome it. Hogwarts effected there friendship quite a lot. There new friends affected snape a lot and he became obssessed with dark magic , lily's didnt as much but when she became friends with 'the marauders' her friendship with snape was long gone , but lily had broken her ties with snape before this

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
I dont think gryffindor affected lily as much as slytherin did snape .Lily was very strong-minded and knew right from wrong, she didnt let it affect her or her friendship. snape however changed dramatically in slytherin and let his peers drive him to do dark magic.I think that if snape had been in gryffindor aswell as lily that they would have found it easier to maintain their friendship and snape wouldnt be so driven to the dark arts.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
Snape and Lily had been on a rocky path ever since snape had been obssessing in dark arts and 'hanging' with people of which lily dissaproved.
i think it was a deep regret in later life for making these bonds with people like macnair. I think the final straw for lily was the 'mudblood' insult, lily never thought he would use it on her , they were supposed to be friends , and for snape to insult her whilst she was trying to help seemed like he was throwing it back in her face and she felt very heartbroken , therefore ending there friendship.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Snape , defintely , infact quite a lot ...Not call lily a mudblood, not be friends with the dark people and chose Lily over dark magic which he found easy after her death.Lily hated the fact that he could chose these dark things instead of her and if she had tried harder to maintain there friendship and not end it for calling her a mudblood they may have stayed friends.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
They would have had a life-long friendship and a romantic future. Rowling has said so. Snape's life was tragic and full of mistakes by his doing.If he hadnt made these snape would of had a happy life a head of him instead of his enemy marrying his lifelong love, Hating harry (for he may have been his son) and living his life happily until an old age. Voldemort would not have known of the prophecy and killed lily. I feel a great deal of sympathy for snape, although he was great at reading and blocking his mind he somehow seemed to block it from himself never being fully able to make the right descision until it was too late.

BTW SNAPE HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY FAV CHARACTER , EVEN BEFORE WE KNEW HIS TRUE MOTIVES(THIS JUST MADE ME LOVE HIM MORE .
..LOVE YOU SEVERUS SNAPE , RIP XOXOXO

Makes perfect sense to me for those reasons. It seems that many females see the facts in a different light to males judging by many of the posts on the forum. I wonder why - is it our sense of the romantic and tragic being different to males idea of the romantic and tragic?

I think you may well be on to something!

Females - at a very very basic level - look for security in a relationship (someone to help raise the kids) whereas males look for sex (having as many kids as possible) so to a woman having someone love you as completely and for as long as Snape loved Lily might appear attractive and admirable but to men to love someoone without even the possibility of sex would seem completely pointless.

I don't think it is a good idea to make generalities about things like romance, sex, relationships, etc. Let's accept the fact that people of different ages, sexes and life experiences will have different views on romance. And, within the realm of these personal experiences and differences, let's try to analyze Snape and Lily and not all that other stuff.

Sorry - mea culpa -I was just making an observation about how we are perceiving the Snape/Lily relationship and noticing the different peoples gender in how we are seeing this relationship. I suppose there could be a thread somewhere on this but I haven't seen it and you must admit it is rather interesting.

Now back to the subject at hand. IMO Snapes sad neglected childhood didn't equip him for handling the Voldemort Dark Arts sect that existed among several Slytherin students. He was already vulnerable and impressionable when he first arrived at Hogwarts and you can bet that Lucius et al saw that and took advantage of it. Lily could see what was happening but was unable to do anything about it unfortunately. It's a bit like watching a close friend get sucked into a whacky religious cult and not being able to prevent the brainwashing. Cults usually pick most of their recruits from people not unlike Snape and Lily couldn't prevent it so unfortunately felt she had to sever the friendship.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Snape introduced her to magic , a whole new world ,after she found out he was telling the truth of course lily would still be friends with snape, He was her only link , for nearly 2 years to the magical world.Things like that have to bring people closer together, and that it did.

Reading this it sounded simlar to my own reasoning but it aslo reminded me of something; I think it was Remus who said it -

Lily had a gift for seeing the good in people even, or maybe especaily when they couldn't see it themselves. (I paraphrase here - as I can't remember where in PoA it was said.)

Alot of this discussion has focused of Snape; his motives, his reasoning etc. but Lily must have had more of a reason for bing freinds with Snape until thier 5th year of school. if he had just been the person who told her about the magical world - well she had loads of people to do that once she was at school but she still decided to keep her friendship with Sev & worked at it.

So I guess I'm saying there has to be more to Lily's motives - anyoe have some good ideas what her reasons might have been?

Sorry to burst your bubble Wick but while I agree with you that is the way you should love, nobody loves like that - why is there such a high divorce rate? Why before divorce was acceptable were there so many unhappy marriages? Because nobody can love perfectly.

As soon as you start saying "If A really loved B they would have behaved in this way" you are on very sticky ground, because you are imposing your values and your experience onto someone else who has a very different set of values and life experience. This is why marriage counsellors have to be impartial, even when it may seem obvious that one person of the couple is "in the wrong"; blaming the other person for the imperfections in a relationship does not get anyone anywhere.

If you start to think "If you loved me you would do this" then you are getting into the realms of emotional blackmail. This doesn't mean that you should be taken for a ride by any abusive control freak who says he loves you though. If someone's behaviour is unacceptable to you then you tell them - as Lily did to Snape. But it is important to stress that it is the behaviour you dislike not the person.

I really don't need to be told what love is or should be like. I have been married for 17 years and over that time my husband and I have gone through some pretty tough times. Love hurts - if you love someone they will hurt you at some point. The most important thing in a marriage is being able to forgive - and that includes forgiving yourself for the times you mess up.

I respect your view, but I think you misunderstood me. The point I was making was that James was there for Lily when she was in danger. Snape, on the other hand, formed a part of that danger and did nothing to attempt to keep her from danger until proverbially speaking, one of the numerous guns aimed at her was pointed directly at her head. That was the difference I was pointing out. :)

Snape was always in denial that he and Lily were on opposing sides

If by denial you mean he submerged his feelings to the point where he stopped thinking about Lily, I agree with you.

On the contrary I would say that the greater the risk, the higher the likelyhood of denial. Denial is a mental defence mechanism and would be unnecessary if there was no real risk. The reason people go into denial is because they cannot even begin to face the thing that they are denying - it is too huge for them to cope with. The possibility of Lily being killed by the organisation Snape was a member of fits perfectly into this category IMO. Denial is not logical - that's why it's called denial - because it is denying something that is really obvious.

I think we might just be using different terms. I agree he submerged his feelings - beginning back in 5th year when the friendship ended and more strongly still in 7th when Lily and James began their soulmate journey. Imo, Snape didn't think of Lily in a romantic way at all again until her family was targeted. If that is what you mean also, we are in agreement.

IMO Kingsley and Arthur while both brave did not risk their lives as Snape did by "going behind enemy lines".

I am not sure about Arthur, but Kingsley did; he was working in Voldemort's ministry with numerous death eaters, all of whom he had to make believe he was not working for the Order. One slip up in trying to save someone from the terrors the ministry was enacting; or passing information from the ministry to the Order and he was dead meat. He didn't just speak to Voldemort, he spoke to a host of people in various situations. He was working against them the entire time - since GoF. That is why I believe his situation was more precarious than Snape's.

Although Remus also went behind enemy lines he did not do it for as long as Snape, nor as effectively.

I would respectfully disagree. How many werewolves were at the final battle? 2 - Remus and Greyback. That was the result of Remus' effort because they were going to back up Greyback on Voldemort's behalf.

Not only that but Snape was regularly in the presence of Voldemort and had to lie to him - someone who prided himself that he always knew when someone was lying to him. Bearing in mind that this was a wizard that few people even dared to name I think that took more courage than any of the characters you mentioned.

I respect your view, mine is just distinct in this regard. :)

If by denial you mean he submerged his feelings to the point where he stopped thinking about Lily, I agree with you.
No that is not what I mean. What I mean is the absolute refusal to accept the situation as it actually is. Kittling expressed it very well:

Denial is not a conscious choice. It is a powerful psychological defence and is not under the conscious direction of the affected person. Its purpose is to guard the psyche from a situation, information or emotions that threaten to overwhelm the person.

When someone is in denial they refuse to accept a given fact or truth - for example refusing to believe someone is dead. If it is Elvis then this might be a cause for amusement - if it is your spouse or child then it is far from funny.

In Snape's case he refused to believe that being a death eater was a bad thing, and that it would endanger anyone he cared about. The thing that made Snape such a good occlumens was the ability to compartmentalise his life - his thoughts and feelings. This always made him far more susceptible to block off the unpleasant truths he did not want to face.

I am not sure about Arthur, but Kingsley did; he was working in Voldemort's ministry with numerous death eaters, all of whom he had to make believe he was not working for the Order. One slip up in trying to save someone from the terrors the ministry was enacting; or passing information from the ministry to the Order and he was dead meat. He didn't just speak to Voldemort, he spoke to a host of people in various situations. He was working against them the entire time - since GoF. That is why I believe his situation was more precarious than Snape's.
To use an analogy from WWII I would liken Kingsley's work in the Ministry to the resistance in occupied France. Yes it was very dangerous and invaluable to winning the war. However I would liken Snape's position to that of an allied spy who became Hitler's right hand man. Not only was the situation more precarious, but having to live with people whose ideals and goals disgust you is extremely stressful in itself. Kingsley and the other order members also had the support of each other. Snape had absolutely no one who knew he was a spy and was working for the order. The fact that he kept going to the end I think showed great strength of character and determination.

Incidently Vodlemort did not take over at the ministry until early on in DH. Until then Kingsley's work for the order inside the ministry was not anywhere near as dangerous as Snape's as a Death Eater, as he was not spying on Voldemort and he certainly would not have been "dead meat" had be been discovered. As far as I remember (and admittedly my memory is appalling) there is absolutely no canon to support the idea that Kingsley spoke to Voldemort

The only problem I have with this is that if you love someone, really love someone romantically, then you act like James. You find your soulmate and it is worth everything in the world to you to be with that person. You do not wait to express your love for the person when they are suddenly in direct danger of being killed, aimo. Love is not like a water faucet, one doesn't turn it off and on when they are desirous of bathing in it. It is constant and for it to have any real basis, any real meaning, it is expressed through selflessness and giving when it is not required, imo. Keep in mind I am speaking of romantic love - that is what Snape claimed to have for Lily, not the love of a friend or of a sister or humanity in general.

bold mine

Apart from the statement *acting like James* I agree with everything you’ve said WWB. And the bolded words are what IMO Snape felt for Lily, and why he could not turn it off IMO.

And this is my point exactly. If you are really "in love" with someone (romatic love), you do not submerge your fears with denial because the idea that they might die is too compelling. Look at Snape's reaction to Lily's death in the end - he was absolutely distraught, he said he wanted to die. He acted like a husband might act over his wife or a boyfriend over their girlfriend who had been romantically involved for a time. That was what Snape claimed - he did not say he was distraught over a lost friend, but over his romantic love (as shown by his patronus).

With due respect, I think James had he lived and Lily died, would have also cried out the same thing. Sirius did that for a friend. He laughed like a maniac and said he was guilty and was prepared to spend the rest of his life in Azkaban for suggesting the switch. Snape too felt like that, when Lily died, and Dumbledore too cried when he thought of Ariana and Grindelwald. Because like you, yourself said, love is something that cannot be switched off.

Lily had defied Voldemort thrice - she was a hot target - Snape could not avoid Lily's participation with the Order. His denial (if his emotions for Lily were similar to that which he displayed upon her death) would be completely and utterly futile - and I don't mean in the sense of his merely sobbing at night - I mean that Snape would have not been able to be in denial, he would have taken action, imo. That is not to say that denial under normal circumstances is impossible, what I am saying is that denial in the face of working with a gang that was bent on killing the person you are tryng to deny your strong romantic feelings for is impossible, imo.

That’s why I felt Snape had potential to change. He would have known that he may have had to meet Lily or even James as a DE. Lily's death would have hurt Snape, but James's death would have also hurt Lily IMO.

The love you are describing that Snape had, imo is not romantic love - rather it is benevolent love that is completely selfless and monk-like, like what one would have for a sister or a friend. Monks have no role in romance, imo. So that is my problem with Snape merely wishing to keep Lily safe with no further motive.

Sure Snape loved Lily romantically and he probably wanted what James had with her quite desperately. But did he act on his feelings that he was not quite able to control? That’s the question IMO and I feel, he never did and that makes him respectable in my eyes. Like CathyWeasley said in the Snape thread some time back (it was in reference to the bullying) that our feelings are our own, but we are responsible for what we do with them to others. (not the exact words). Snape loved her and wanted her like a lover would, but did he act on those feelings either directly by trying to wean Lily away or indirectly by harming James?

I would answer in the negative, because we have no evidence of that in canon. That makes him more than good IMO. He could not help his feelings but he could help what chose to do about them and he chose with her happiness in his mind IMO. That was very selfless and responsible. He also respected her feelings in the matter. No one apart from Dumbledore and many years later Harry knew that Snape had loved Harry's mother IMO.

That is not what I meant. :lol: What I said was that in my view, Snape did not show anymore bravery in his acts on behalf of the order than others (and less in some cases). For example: spying is dangerous and Kingsley understood that danger on a daily basis, before a lot more people, and with the risk of Azkaban if anyone found out (and we know Azkaban and the dementors was as bad as death). And if he was discovered as a spy by a death eater, he would simply be killed. As I saw it, his bravery was boundless. Arthur took the same risks on a slightly lesser level more akin to Snape's from what we know. He played a double role at work while he could, but also went out on dangerous missions - one that we know of which nearly ended in his death via Nagini. Lupin too spied among unfriendly werewolves and risked being caught by Greyback doing so - insta death for him if he was. Plus he was out on constant missions as well during OOTP which we didn't hear anything about - not to mention throughout DH he was directly targeted for death by Voldemort. We saw first hand the danger and risk that Hermione and Ron faced in their efforts and there were many more (like Moody, hestia, etc.) who were involved in ways that neither Harry nor we knew of.

For this I have only one question in return. Would any of those kill Dumbledore and take on the hatred of the Wizarding World to save Dumbledore from Bellatrix’s torture and agree to take a message to Harry about his death, which was the most important thing to winning the war?

We know that Snape also risked his life and was in danger, but he met with Voldemort intermittently and his other duties were far less dangerous than those I described. Everyone had the same premise: one slip up and you are dead, just like Snape. So I fail to see how Snape was shown to display more bravery or even equal bravery to some of the others in canon. I am not discounting the possibility altogether because we did not see everything, but in as far as what canon shows, that is my belief.

I agree with you that there were many brave men in the Order. Moody, Lupin, Kingsley among others. But the main difference and I’ve said it before, was that each of them could do the other’s tasks. If Kingsley was not able to spy in the Ministry, Arthur could have done it; but there was no one who could do Snape's job, of lying and surviving Voldemort everyday, killing Dumbledore, agreeing to confound Mundungus Fletcher for a high risk operation that would surely be very dangerous; smirk and smile at the hatred of his colleagues and so on….IMO no one could have done his job, no one IMO WOULD. Snape did it, and he did it well until the end. That was why IMO he was the bravest man Harry ever knew among the many brave men Harry had known starting from his father and godfather IMO.

No that is not what I mean. What I mean is the absolute refusal to accept the situation as it actually is. Kittling expressed it very well: When someone is in denial they refuse to accept a given fact or truth - for example refusing to believe someone is dead. If it is Elvis then this might be a cause for amusement - if it is your spouse or child then it is far from funny.

Ah, well then I would have to respectfully disagree. I don't believe psychosis works like a water facet either. If he was that deeply in denial, then imo, he would have continued to remain in denial even when Voldemort targeted the Potter family. But I don't think Snape thought like that. Imo: I believe that Lily being with James hurt him immensely. As a result, he tried to convince himself that he disliked her and submerged his feelings for her. While he fought with the DEs, his attitude would be more in line with feeling she deserved whatever she got for what she had done to him. But deep down, he didn't really feel that way because he still had positive emotions for her. When the opportunity to be with her arose, he allowed his true feelings to surface. That is what makes most sense to me under the circumstances.


To use an analogy from WWII I would liken Kingsley's work in the Ministry to the resistance in occupied France. Yes it was very dangerous and invaluable to winning the war. However I would liken Snape's position to that of an allied spy who became Hitler's right hand man. Not only was the situation more precarious, but having to live with people whose ideals and goals disgust you is extremely stressful in itself.

But it was Kingsley who was among those at the ministry everyday - since GoF when the ministry was against Dumbledore. Kingsley was working with Dumbledore in secret (recall OOTP and the DA discovery). Snape met with Voldemort only occassionally.

Kingsley and the other order members also had the support of each other. Snape had absolutely no one who knew he was a spy and was working for the order.

The entire Order knew Snape was an Order member and a spy - he attended meetings with them. Remus, Molly, Arthur and likely others treated him cordially as a result, despite the way he treated them.

Incidently Vodlemort did not take over at the ministry until early on in DH. Until then Kingsley's work for the order inside the ministry was not anywhere near as dangerous as Snape's as a Death Eater, as he was not spying on Voldemort and he certainly would not have been "dead meat" had be been discovered. As far as I remember (and admittedly my memory is appalling) there is absolutely no canon to support the idea that Kingsley spoke to Voldemort

Kingsley was working for Dumbledore, which was in direct defiance of the Ministry. The Ministry was up to its ears in DEs and in as far back as OOTP they were all speaking in cross purposes with respect to their work for the Order. Snape did his part too, meeting with Voldemort from time to time, just not on a daily basis and Kingsley never knew what to expect, Snape did.

My point here was that I do not believe that Snape did anything especially brave in Lily's honor - no more than what the others were doing. We can make stuff up, but based on canon, all we have are occassional spy meetings.

My point here was that I do not believe that Snape did anything especially brave in Lily's honor I disagree. I think Snape was exceptionally brave and showed more courage than most characters in the books. I think spying on Voldemort for the order is far more dangerous than spying on the Ministry for the Order.

I don't believe psychosis works like a water facet either. If he was that deeply in denial, then imo, he would have continued to remain in denial even when Voldemort targeted the Potter family. But I don't think Snape thought like that.
Firstly I am not sure that denial would be classed as a psychosis. Secondly I was not suggesting that either could be switched on and off, but a sudden threat which directly contradicts that which you are denying certainly could shock you out of it. Thirdly you still seem to be implying that it is consciously done when you say "I don't think Snape thought like that". Denial by it's very nature, is not something that is consciously done.
To me it makes perfect sense that Snape was in denial that there was anything bad about being a death Eater (I'm sure the term "the greater good" crossed his mind as well) and (just to be clear) Snape was in denial that Lily was in any danger from the Death Eaters. When Voldemort told him that he was going to kill the Potters he was shocked out of his denial by what was a very severe mental and emotional blow. From that moment he no longer was the servant of Lord Voldemort.

ETA: It is like having cataracts in your eyes - You cannot see properly, but when the cataracts are removed you can see clearly - well denial is like a mental cataract that hides the things we do not want to see. Once the denial has been removed what was hidden is visible to the conscious mind and we can no longer deny the truth. This is what happened to Snape IMO.
Denial is quite an important mental defence mechanism - if people are forced to face a truth they really cannot deal with it can cause them lasting mental harm.
In Snape's case it caused him eternal regret - if he had realised the truth earlier then he would never have put Lily in danger in the first place.

http://www.paws-claws.net/images/puppy.jpg

Make love not war. Pat the puppy.

Firstly I am not sure that denial would be classed as a pychosis.

:tu: your right - psychosis involves severe mental disorginisation; therefore its safe to say this in no way applies to Snape.

I repeat - Denial is a defence.

Secondly I was not suggesting that either could be switched on and off, but a sudden threat which directly contradicts that which you are denying certainly could shock you out of it.

:tu: correct it certainly could.


Thirdly you still seem to be implying that it is consciously done when you say "I don't think Snape thought like that". Denial by it's very nature, is not something that is consciously done.

:tu: Denial is subconscious

To me it makes perfect sense that Snape was in denial that there was anything bad about being a death Eater (I'm sure the term "the greater good" rossed his mind as well) and (just to be clear) Snape was in denial that Lily was in any danger from the Death Eaters. When Voldemort told him that he was going to kill the Potters he was shocked out of his denial by what was a very severe mental and emotional blow. From that moment he no longer was the servant of Lord Voldemort.[/QUOTE]
:tu: Thanks Cathy :)

Firstly I am not sure that denial would be classed as a pychosis. Secondly I was not suggesting that either could be switched on and off, but a sudden threat which directly contradicts that which you are denying certainly could shock you out of it. Thirdly you still seem to be implying that it is consciously done when you say "I don't think Snape thought like that". Denial by it's very nature, is not something that is consciously done.

I guess I need you to explain more because I don't understand. At what point did Snape begin to unconsciously deny his feelings for Lily in your opinion? He was not denying them in the memories, imo. He was keeping them hidden from Lily at Hogwarts, but he acknowledged them in as far as fancying her and being jealous of James (even before there was a need to be). So when do you feel he began to do this?


To me it makes perfect sense that Snape was in denial that there was anything bad about being a death Eater (I'm sure the term "the greater good" rossed his mind as well) and (just to be clear) Snape was in denial that Lily was in any danger from the Death Eaters. When Voldemort told him that he was going to kill the Potters he was shocked out of his denial by what was a very severe mental and emotional blow. From that moment he no longer was the servant of Lord Voldemort.

So by denial you mean he thought about her all the time in a romantic way and allowed himself to freely feel love for her all along. Meanwhile he was dellusional as to the danger that the DEs posed to her and the fact that she could be killed at any time? Or do you mean he actually considered it and denied it? I don't understand how unconscious denial works.

http://www.paws-claws.net/images/puppy.jpg

Make love not war. Pat the puppy.

:love:
*obediently pats the puppy*

I guess I need you to explain more because I don't understand. At what point did Snape begin to unconsciously deny his feelings for Lily in your opinion? He was not denying them in the memories, imo. He was keeping them hidden from Lily at Hogwarts, but he acknowledged them in as far as fancying her and being jealous of James (even before there was a need to be). So when do you feel he began to do this?
I wasn't suggesting that Snape was denying his feelings for Lily. I was suggesting that he was denying that being a Death Eater was a bad thing and that Lily was in any danger from Voldemort and his minions. We can see this in the memories when he is talking to Lily saying that what Mulciber and Avery did was "just a laugh". Lily tries to tell him that aspiring to be a Death Eater is not a good ambition, but he just doesn't "get" it - he thinks she is wrong and he is right; he is already in denial that being a Death Eater is bad and could hurt Lily.

Meanwhile he was dellusional as to the danger that the DEs posed to her and the fact that she could be killed at any time? Or do you mean he actually considered it and denied it? I don't understand how unconscious denial works.Yes he was "delusional" (to use your word) as to the danger the DEs posed to her. He never considered it because as far as he was concerned it wasn't there. i hope that makes sense! :)

:love:
*obediently pats the puppy*


I wasn't suggesting that Snape was denying his feelings for Lily. I was suggesting that he was denying that being a Death Eater was a bad thing and that Lily was in any danger from Voldemort and his minions. We can see this in the memories when he is talking to Lily saying that what Mulciber and Avery did was "just a laugh". Lily tries to tell him that aspiring to be a Death Eater is not a good ambition, but he just doesn't "get" it - he thinks she is wrong and he is right; he is already in denial that being a Death Eater is bad and could hurt Lily.

Yes he was "delusional" (to use your word) as to the danger the DEs posed to her. He never considered it because as far as he was concerned it wasn't there. i hope that makes sense! :)

Okay, I think I understand what you mean - but one last clarification. When you say he never considered it, he knew she was in the Order and that the DEs were attempting to capture and kill Order members - so wouldn't he have to consider it?

When you say he never considered it, he knew she was in the Order and that the DEs were attempting to capture and kill Order members - so wouldn't he have to consider it?
Not necessarily. What Snape would think would be "Lily was special - She was far too magical to be targetted by the Death Eaters" or something along those lines - if he thought about it at all. He was just sure that none of it could hurt her. I think this also explains why Snape blames JAmes for Lily dying - because in his mind Lily would have been fine if she hadn't got involved with Potter and it was Potter that put her in danger. Now quite obviously that isn't the case but that is how Snape would have seen it.
As I said this isn't about logical thought - it is about the mind protecting itself from things it cannot cope with.

My point here was that I do not believe that Snape did anything especially brave in Lily's honor - no more than what the others were doing. We can make stuff up, but based on canon, all we have are occasional spy meetings.

We don't have to make stuff up. Just read between the lines, as Rowling so often expects her readers to do. :)

If Snape wasn't especially brave, then Harry's words to his son in the Epilogue make no sense and Rowling clearly meant them to make sense. :)

http://www.paws-claws.net/images/puppy.jpg


Eeeeeeeeeee puppy! :love:

Does Severus like puppies, I wonder? :p

Does Severus like puppies, I wonder
I see him as more of a cat person, but thats just me =)

do not believe Snape was in denial about the danger to Lily of a Death Eater victory, by the time he took the final step and became one himself.

I have a somewhat different view. In my opinion, upon realizing he had no chance with Lily, Severus decided to follow the advice of many on this thread, and decided he needed to get over her. How does one do this? One pursues other women, other friends, and other interests, of course.

So he did. He even thought he had succeeded. No, he did not date some Pureblood lady more worthy of his interest (that we know of, anyway, if he did she proved not to be a soulmate :lol: ), but he told himself, I think, that this was because he was too busy doing important stuff with his friends. Becoming a Death Eater was surely proof that he was over her, he could remind himself - he no longer cared what she would think of that, or what the Death Eater stance was towards people like her.

And then he found out she was in deadly danger, and realized that, despite his efforts to convince himself to the contrary, he still did care what happened to her, very much. More than anything.

Because however healthy, desirable, or safe it might be, love is not something you can stop doing merely because it seems more sensible to do so.

We don't have to make stuff up. Just read between the lines, as Rowling so often expects her readers to do. :)

Yes, that is what I was referring to because what is between the lines is completely different for everyone. We all imagine varying things going on at DE meetings because there is only one example and in that, Snape's position was the most secure of those in the room. Was it always that way? We don't know, but everyone imagines different things. I don't discuss the fact that I read between the lines of SWM and realize that James and Lily actually had to have been on friendly and rather close terms at that time - it is terribly obvious to me - yet many people read between the lines that Lily considered him an 'arrogant toe rag' and that is the end of it. So it just boils down to guesses, imo :lol:.

If Snape wasn't especially brave, then Harry's words to his son in the Epilogue make no sense and Rowling clearly meant them to make sense. :)

This is a matter of interpretation though. Harry was trying to convince his little son that being in Slytherin was great. So he exaggerates and says that Snape was probably one of the bravest men he had met - but he doesn't lie because he qualifies it with the 'probably'. Harry couldn't make an example of a single other soul - who would he use? Slughorn? Voldemort? So that was how I interpreted it. But I respect your view if you see it distinctly. :)

This is a matter of interpretation though. Harry was trying to convince his little son that being in Slytherin was great. So he exaggerates and says that Snape was probably one of the bravest men he had met - but he doesn't lie because he qualifies it with the 'probably'. Harry couldn't make an example of a single other soul - who would he use? Slughorn? Voldemort? So that was how I interpreted it. But I respect your view if you see it distinctly. :)

I would have to disagree here and say, if he did not think Snape was brave, why name a child after him? I think the name speaks volumes for his feelings toward Snape.

I would have to disagree here and say, if he did not think Snape was brave, why name a child after him? I think the name speaks volumes for his feelings toward Snape.

I agree. I think Harry's feelings toward Snape were really changed when he found out what a large part he played in Dumbleodre's plan. I dont think Harry would have named his son after someone he didnt think deserved being remembered.

I was suggesting that he was denying that being a Death Eater was a bad thing and that Lily was in any danger from Voldemort and his minions.

I had a feeling that the thought of fighting Lily never occured to Snape, mainly because the Potters were in hiding for a long time. Had he met Lily or even James I think Snape would have started much earlier about just what he was doing. Fighting with Black or Lupin would not bother Snape much as fighting with Lily and even James, because IMO his death would have affected Lily.

Snape would not have met Lily or James at all IMO; they went into hiding when Lily was pregnant and from then they never participated in any of the Order work or fought with Voldemort and his DEs. And since Snape never came into contact with Lily, I feel he never thought of actually harming her when he attacked the Order members or when he was attacked by them IMO.

Snape would not have met Lily or James at all IMO; they went into hiding when Lily was pregnant and from then they never participated in any of the Order work or fought with Voldemort and his DEs.
But Lily and James managed to defy Voldemort three times before Lily got pregnant. The first time they defied him, he apparently asked them to join him (so they must have been in very close quarters with him when they refused him - highly dangerous). I don't see how Snape could have been oblivious to this - but perhaps he was.

He may not have been personally involved in fighting with Lilly was what I meant. He may not have been there when Lily and James were attacking or being attacked by Voldemort and his DEs. Since there may not have been a personal interaction, and later the Potters went into hiding, Snape may not have met them at all. We don't see any indication in canon that Snape fought with Lily or James. So I felt that may not have happened.

IMO Kingsley and Arthur while both brave did not risk their lives as Snape did by "going behind enemy lines".
Arthur almost died. Guard duty in the DoM was highly perilous.
We don't have to make stuff up. Just read between the lines, as Rowling so often expects her readers to do.
But that really amounts to making things up. I've seen some pretty inventive assumptions here and there (not by you). It's fine to read between the lines, but then it's fanon and not canon.

He may not have been personally involved in fighting with Lilly was what I meant. He may not have been there when Lily and James were attacking or being attacked by Voldemort and his DEs. Since there may not have been a personal interaction, and later the Potters went into hiding, Snape may not have met them at all. We don't see any indication in canon that Snape fought with Lily or James. So I felt that may not have happened.
I suppose at this point it's merely speculation. This does remind me of a very good little drabble I once read though:
http://community.livejournal.com/lilyandjames/165923.html#cutid1 - If anyone's interested.

I suppose at this point it's merely speculation. This does remind me of a very good little drabble I once read though:
http://community.livejournal.com/lilyandjames/165923.html#cutid1 - If anyone's interested.

It was very nice. :)

Since Lily's sure death was what got Snape moving in the books; I feel had there been a duel like what I read, then I think Snape would have turned earlier IMO. :)

Since Lily's sure death was what got Snape moving in the books; I feel had there been a duel like what I read, then I think Snape would have turned earlier IMO. :)
I think if it was a situation just like that little drabble, then I think Snape would have realised Lily was in danger sooner, but it could have played out any way in canon. Perhaps, like what was said earlier, Snape had tried and succeeded in a way to get over Lily and she had been pushed to the back of his mind in a sense (I'm guessing he was quite busy and had a lot of things on his mind when he was a death eater), until it was brought to his attention that Voldemort had directly targetted her and there was a chance that she could finally be seperated from James and Harry. Again, just speculation.

do not believe Snape was in denial about the danger to Lily of a Death Eater victory, by the time he took the final step and became one himself.

I have a somewhat different view. In my opinion, upon realizing he had no chance with Lily, Severus decided to follow the advice of many on this thread, and decided he needed to get over her. How does one do this? One pursues other women, other friends, and other interests, of course.

So he did. He even thought he had succeeded. No, he did not date some Pureblood lady more worthy of his interest (that we know of, anyway, if he did she proved not to be a soulmate :lol: ), but he told himself, I think, that this was because he was too busy doing important stuff with his friends. Becoming a Death Eater was surely proof that he was over her, he could remind himself - he no longer cared what she would think of that, or what the Death Eater stance was towards people like her.

And then he found out she was in deadly danger, and realized that, despite his efforts to convince himself to the contrary, he still did care what happened to her, very much. more than anything.

Because however healthy, desirable, or safe it might be, love is not something you can stop doing merely because it seems more sensible to do so.

I have to say I agree with your picture, except for the no denial part. :)

To me Snape never make two important pieces fit, even though to the rest of us it’s overwhelmingly obvious.

DE’s hate muggle born’s

Lily is muggle born.

To Snape, Lily is, and always has been, excluded from this simple equation. She is, as he say’s, too… Ok we don’t know exactly what he was about to say in the park that day, but to me it painted a picture that Snape could not see anyone harming Lily.

That’s where I see the denial, simply the DE philosophy just didn’t apply to Lily is Snapes head, and so he just couldn’t see that it might to anyone else.

But that really amounts to making things up. I've seen some pretty inventive assumptions here and there (not by you). It's fine to read between the lines, but then it's fanon and not canon.

Fanon :lol: Excellent word! I agree though. I do believe that there is room for interpretation of the lines (hence this site); however, I believe that there is the potential to go too far.

I think if it was a situation just like that little drabble, then I think Snape would have realised Lily was in danger sooner, but it could have played out any way in canon. Perhaps, like what was said earlier, Snape had tried and succeeded in a way to get over Lily and she had been pushed to the back of his mind in a sense (I'm guessing he was quite busy and had a lot of things on his mind when he was a death eater), until it was brought to his attention that Voldemort had directly targetted her and there was a chance that she could finally be seperated from James and Harry. Again, just speculation.

So you think Snape wanted Harry and James out of the way so he could move in? I am unsure of what you mean in that last line.

do not believe Snape was in denial about the danger to Lily of a Death Eater victory, by the time he took the final step and became one himself.

I have a somewhat different view. In my opinion, upon realizing he had no chance with Lily, Severus decided to follow the advice of many on this thread, and decided he needed to get over her. How does one do this? One pursues other women, other friends, and other interests, of course.

So he did. He even thought he had succeeded. No, he did not date some Pureblood lady more worthy of his interest (that we know of, anyway, if he did she proved not to be a soulmate :lol: ), but he told himself, I think, that this was because he was too busy doing important stuff with his friends. Becoming a Death Eater was surely proof that he was over her, he could remind himself - he no longer cared what she would think of that, or what the Death Eater stance was towards people like her.

Right...I completely agree. That is what makes the most sense to me based on Snape's character.

And then he found out she was in deadly danger, and realized that, despite his efforts to convince himself to the contrary, he still did care what happened to her, very much. More than anything. Because however healthy, desirable, or safe it might be, love is not something you can stop doing merely because it seems more sensible to do so.

Our opinions diverge at this point as I believe you are aware. :)

I would have to disagree here and say, if he did not think Snape was brave, why name a child after him? I think the name speaks volumes for his feelings toward Snape.

I said that Harry did not lie; he did feel Snape was brave - he merely exaggerated in order to convince his son. I do not know why Harry gave the second name of his son to Snape, as I have said, I cannot make heads or tails of it. But that is OT for here. :)

WWB - why can'tyou can't make heads or tails of why Harry named his son after Severus? If you read the pro-Severus posts regarding this matter you will find out why so many think he did and our explanations. These explanations might have got lost in the mass of of other points we are trying to make. Surely you don't think that Harry naming his son after an exaggeration is a bit poor? Please at least give Harry some credit for his judgement. I don't think he would treat the bravery of the person who he named his son's for as an exaggeration. Why give him the name then? Also - as has been pointed out numerous times before - Snape was very brave fronting up to DE meetings with Voldemort (who I know was excellent at reading minds - so Snape had to keep his shut to him at all times which in itself could be dangerous as Voldemort would soon realise he was doing this and could kill him at the drop of a hat. I think I would have preferred to to take my chances at the ministery myself as at least your chances of dying were quite bit less. Even Arthur guarding the room had a chance against Nagini if he'd seen her coming. With Voldemort the chances are you look at him and die.

I think this may be a simple matter of values - what Harry values some don't; consequently, where he sees reason for honour, others may not. It's very personal. :)

What Snape did was brave. What I object to, is denying or diminishing the bravery of others. When Arthur or other Order members guarded that door in the DoM, they didn't know what they might face. It could have been an army of DEs, or it could have been Voldemort, himself (both of which did happen at the same time). And that's ignoring Nagini, who could strike faster than a person could move. Poor Bode, an unspeakable, was brain damaged and then killed over that room.

When the Order became six versions of Harry, they knew they were putting their lives on the line to protect Harry. And one of them did die. And Remus was in terrible peril the entire time he hung out with the werewolves.

Snape was brave and Harry honored that. I also think Harry was honoring the fact that Snape did it all in Lily's name when he named Albus Severus. And I think that Jo wanted to show that Harry had a big heart and could make peace with Snape, even though Snape never managed to do that.

Yes you are probably right so I suppose I must be on par with Harry in my values and reasons for honour. I also think Ginny would have thought along the same lines since she is his soul mate and all. Quite a few of the other posters in this thread seem to think have similar values and reasons for honouras Harry also.

We are not diminishing the bravery of others by any means but rather than have to deal directly with Voldemort I think if given this almost Hobson's Choice I'd prefer to take my chances doing the other things. Yes I know they are dangerous but not QUITE as terrifying as having to face Voldemort himself knowing that one slip would enable him to read your mind and find out you were a spy and then face the terrible consequences of his wrath.

That doesn't equate to Snape being braver than everyone else. As far as I can see, that part of Harry's statement to Albus Severus was to mollify him and show that Harry appreciated Snape's bravery and sacrifice. And, IMO, it demonstrated Harry's big heart, more than it exalted Snape's bravery.

I only get worked up when Snape is described as the most talented or the bravest or the most intelligent, because there were quite a few talented, brave, intelligent characters who made sacrifices. Snape was talented and brave and intelligent. But personally, I think it's a bit much to elevate him above other characters. It's not a contest, since many characters were important and made significant contributions of one kind or another.

That doesn't equate to Snape being braver than everyone else. As far as I can see, that part of Harry's statement to Albus Severus was to mollify him and show that Harry appreciated Snape's bravery and sacrifice. And, IMO, it demonstrated Harry's big heart, more than it exalted Snape's bravery.
I agree, I don't think Harry was being quite truthful there. Making his son feel proud of his name was a good thing, so it wasn't necesarily a bad lie that he told, just an inspiring one. :shrug:

I only get worked up when Snape is described as the most talented or the bravest or the most intelligent, because there were quite a few talented, brave, intelligent characters who made sacrifices. Snape was talented and brave and intelligent. But personally, I think it's a bit much to elevate him about other characters. It's not a contest, since many characters were important and made significant contributions of one kind or another.
I know, I can't stand it either. Why all this talk of him being a huge hero? He didn't make any huge sacrifices; all he had to lose was his life and he didn't even value that anymore. I actually found Snape not to be a complex character at all after we learned everything in DH, because he was always the same. He only did any good work because Dumbledore tricked him into thinking it would help Lily's memory. But yes, I strongly dislike Snape and feel that he was not a superhero or anything. :no:

WWB - you can't make heads or tails of why Harry named his son after Severus? I can't believe you haven't read the posts regarding this matter.

I have read all of the posts in this version and the last one and I still cannot make heads or tails of it. I realize it is perfectly understandable to others, but the reasons I have read are not sufficient imo. They do not address the fundamental issues involved as I perceive them. :). It is a little OT so if you want to see them you can expand the following:

Snape loved Lily his whole life (not something I believe Harry fundamentally approved of, that is, he wouldn't approve of himself willfully loving Ron's wife, Hermione, his whole life, especially if it meant he would be jealous of ron Ron and hate Ron and their children his whole life as well - so what did Harry make of that in terms of his family's integrity, the sanctity of his parent's love and resolving their thoughts on this?) and that inspired Snape to spy on Voldemort (that Harry would approve of) and as a result Snape was jealous of James and mistreated Harry (Harry forgave him that - would Lily and James? What did Harry make of that?). Snape was responsible in part for the death of his parents (what did Harry make of that?) and Snape loathed Harry and James till his dying day - and infact all of those dearest to Harry apart from his mother, i.e., Sirius, Lupin, etc. (what did Harry make of that?). Snape would not be in the least honored by the naming because he loathed Harry and especially James Potter - so having his name attached to a Potter would be despicable to him, imo. (What did Harry make of that?)

Giving your son the second name of someone is not normally done when it is someone: who hates you and your father; mistreated you throughout your association with them (even if you forgive them), took part in the murder of your parents, mistreated your friends, asked for no forgiveness and showed no remorse for any of these things, and would not appreciate the honor, imo. Not merely because they showed some bravery (like many others) based on emotions for your mother (who loved your father). The naming comes across as disrespectful to Harry, his father and his mum (and the others mentioned), imo. So no, I cannot make heads or tails of the naming. :)

If you have logical explanations for each of those issues, I am happy to hear them, but it would likely be best via owl.

I might also add that IMO saying that Harry named his son after an exaggeration is a bit poor. Please at least give Harry some credit for his judgement.

I didn't say this, so I am unsure what you mean. I have no idea why he did the naming. That Harry exaggerated to his son to convince him that Slytherin was a great place is a separate issue for me.

I don't think he would treat the bravery of the person who he named his son's for as an exaggeration. Why give him the name then?

Well we would have to agree to disagree because I feel he exaggerated in order to emphasize his point. Why else add "probably"? Again, I don't associate this with the naming because I don't understand it.

Also - as has been pointed out numerous times before - Snape was very brave fronting up to DE meetings with Voldemort (who I know was excellent at reading minds - so Snape had to keep his shut to him at all times which in itself could be dangerous as Voldemort would soon realise he was doing this and could kill him at the drop of a hat. I think I would have preferred to to take my chances at the ministery myself as at least your chances of dying were quite bit less. Even Arthur guarding the room had a chance against Nagini if he'd seen her coming. With Voldemort the chances are you look at him and die.

I would have to agree with Yoana on this; it is a matter of opinion based on our varying interpretations. I respect your view, though mine is distinct. :)

Yes I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think along Harry's lines (and he's not even my favorite character)but I utterly see where he's coming from (and Snape isn't my favorite character either come to think of it)....... You are seeing it from a point of view I don't understand - and neither does it seem several others on this forum. However you do have supporters so at least someone knows where you're coming from even if others don't.

We'll remain as unconvinced as you are with all these points of view.

I have read all of the posts in this version and the last one and I still cannot make heads or tails of it. I realize it is perfectly understandable to others, but the reasons I have read are not sufficient imo. They do not address the fundamental issues involved as I perceive them. :)

I'm intrigued - can you expand on ‘They do not address the fundamental issues involved as I perceive them.’ How do you perceive them? :)

Edited to add:

Ok - you've just edited your post to do this anyway! Ta

I agree, I don't think Harry was being quite truthful there. Making his son feel proud of his name was a good thing, so it wasn't necesarily a bad lie that he told, just an inspiring one. :shrug:


I know, I can't stand it either. Why all this talk of him being a huge hero? He didn't make any huge sacrifices; all he had to lose was his life and he didn't even value that anymore. I actually found Snape not to be a complex character at all after we learned everything in DH, because he was always the same. He only did any good work because Dumbledore tricked him into thinking it would help Lily's memory. But yes, I strongly dislike Snape and feel that he was not a superhero or anything. :no:


I really do not agree, I think that Snape is arguably one of the MOST important characters of the entire series...and the most heroic. He died for love, nothing is more heroic then that...

But alas, we are destined to disgaree, due to the fact that I am assuming that you are a Red Sux fan, and I being a Yankee fan...:whistle:

You are seeing it from a point of view I don't understand - and neither does it seem several others on this forum. However you do have supporters so at least someone knows where you're coming from even if others don't.Not only isn't it a contest, but it isn't a matter of people lining up and taking sides against each other (and then doing a headcount to see who has more support).

Snape was an important character, but that doesn't mean others weren't important. It's really that simple.

I really do not agree, I think that Snape is arguably one of the MOST important characters of the entire series...and the most heroic. He died for love, nothing is more heroic then that...
Others died for love too. Again, character analysis shouldn't be a contest about who is the best. I don't think we gain anything by lining up and taking sides.

And with that, I'm leaving the thread for awhile, since I don't like "my character is best" contests.

Could we please move past the debate of who is more important then who. We seem to be going in circles here.

OK - finally realised I had to click on the arrow for your fundamental reasons - however I think the reasons we are giving about Harry naming his son after Sev are that Harry finally saw Sev's life the way Lily had and how the friendship went. He saw Sev's regret for his humungus mistake in getting involved with the Dark Arts, DE's and Voldemort. Little bit like Regulus in a sort of way. He saw why Sevmost likely hated his father and obviously figured out why he disliked him - because he kept seeing James in Harry and most likely could have thought he could have had a chance with Lily and had a son - even if would never have come about - Sev didn't know that.

BTW I don't think we're making this into a contest but trying to point out our differing points of view about Snape and why we think (or don't think) Snape is a hero or brave and why he was worthy of Harry naming his son after him.
Harry saw that Sev never ever stopped loving Lily and was willing to do anything he could under Albus guidance to bring about Voldemort's downfall and demise. He saw Sev being alone and hated by so many and friendless but still being the spy for Albus and doing hateful things for him - especially killing him.

That is why Harry called his middle son after Severus Snape - even if it was a little used middle name.

Yes, I understand your reasons and those of the other posters, but it doesn't address any of the problems I have with the issue. Nonetheless, we can speak via owl about it if you like as it is mostly about Harry and a bit OT for the Snape-Lily thread. :)

Getting back on topic: I was thinking that another reason that Lily and Snape may have had a difficult time being friends was that they had no friends in common during their time at Hogwarts. Generally, even if you are in a tricky situation where most of your friends dislike one of your mates (and visa versa), there is at least someone who is understanding. But I imagine the big differences in the viewpoints of Snape and Lily would prevent any such friend from being available, for either of them.

Arthur almost died. Guard duty in the DoM was highly perilous.I'm not denying that other people did highhly perilous things. What I am saying is that I think what Snape did required and extraordinary amount of courage.

I have a somewhat different view. In my opinion, upon realizing he had no chance with Lily, Severus decided to follow the advice of many on this thread, and decided he needed to get over her. How does one do this? One pursues other women, other friends, and other interests, of course.In a way I agree with you. I think Snape was going along the lines "The best revenge is a happy life" - so he did try to get over her and get on with her life. He strived to achieve his ambition of becoming a powerful wizard with influence, so that if he ever did meet up with the Potters again he would be more powerful than James (Ha! Who's got the upper hand now Potter!) and Lily might regret her choice (See told you so! Being a Death Eater is the way to go)
Snape's attitude to Lily's concerns in their conversations and his apparent suddden epiphany when Lily is actually targetted imply to me that Snape had to be in denial about the bad side of being a Death Eater. In a way it reminds me of people who insist they aren't addicted to something when they obviously are. They avoid an inconvenient truth.

ETA: As for Harry's naming of his son - I think it was firstly to honour Snape's bravery - Harry being a Gryffindor admired this trait above other traits. Harry was also someone who had faced Voldemort and knew how scarey he was. I also think that it shows that Harry has a big heart and is able to forgive and to me that was the most important thing about it - Harry was brave and all the rest of it, but to me his true super human stregth was his ability to love - and part of that is the ability to forgive. So really the epilogue ties up the theme of love. Snape was unable to forgive - and was a miserable botter person because of it. HArry could forgive and was a well adjusted and happy.

Precisely CW! Couldn't have put it better myself. I assume you meant bitter not botter.

ETA: As for Harry's naming of his son - I think it was firstly to honour Snape's bravery - Harry being a Gryffindor admired this trait above other traits. Harry was also someone who had faced Voldemort and knew how scarey he was. I also think that it shows that Harry has a big heart and is able to forgive and to me that was the most important thing about it - Harry was brave and all the rest of it, but to me his true super human stregth was his ability to love - and part of that is the ability to forgive. So really the epilogue ties up the theme of love. Snape was unable to forgive - and was a miserable botter person because of it. HArry could forgive and was a well adjusted and happy.
Fantastic. That's exactly how I see it. :agree:

I suppose at this point it's merely speculation. This does remind me of a very good little drabble I once read though:
http://community.livejournal.com/lilyandjames/165923.html#cutid1 - If anyone's interested.

That drabble was excellent. :tu: Really good writing. :agree:

Snape's attitude to Lily's concerns in their conversations and his apparent suddden epiphany when Lily is actually targetted imply to me that Snape had to be in denial about the bad side of being a Death Eater. In a way it reminds me of people who insist they aren't addicted to something when they obviously are. They avoid an inconvenient truth.

I agree about the 'apparent sudden epiphany' re: the danger Lily was in.

I loved the rest of your post and will take my response over to the Snape thread. :whistle: :D

I assume you meant bitter not botter.
Er... Yeah! :blush:

That doesn't equate to Snape being braver than everyone else. As far as I can see, that part of Harry's statement to Albus Severus was to mollify him and show that Harry appreciated Snape's bravery and sacrifice. And, IMO, it demonstrated Harry's big heart, more than it exalted Snape's bravery.

I only get worked up when Snape is described as the most talented or the bravest or the most intelligent, because there were quite a few talented, brave, intelligent characters who made sacrifices. Snape was talented and brave and intelligent. But personally, I think it's a bit much to elevate him above other characters. It's not a contest, since many characters were important and made significant contributions of one kind or another.

Well said! While I think Snape was very brave and is my favorite character to discuss, there were many others who risked their lives for the cause. They should not be forgotten nor their efforts diminished.


So, Lily and Snape... Snape and Lily...

I have always wondered what would have happened if the mudblood incident never happened. Would they have stayed together? Was Snape capable of a relationship with Lily?

Also, assuming everything remained the same an mudblood was used, would there have been anything Snape could have done to win Lily back as his friend? Would leaving his friends behind have been enough?

I have always wondered what would have happened if the mudblood incident never happened. Would they have stayed together? Was Snape capable of a relationship with Lily?Their interactions always seemed a little strained. They didn't seem to mesh. They might have stayed friends, but I suspect they might have drifted apart like a lot of friends do as they grow and change.
Also, assuming everything remained the same an mudblood was used, would there have been anything Snape could have done to win Lily back as his friend? Would leaving his friends behind have been enough?
I'm convinced that had he dumped the DE friends, bigoted attitudes, and Dark Arts, she would have resumed the friendship. Lily was rather annoyed with James after SWM, but he took her hint and improved his behavior. She took notice and dated him.

I have always wondered what would have happened if the mudblood incident never happened. Would they have stayed together? Was Snape capable of a relationship with Lily?Well, in my opinion, if everything stayed the same, but the mudblood thing did not happen, I think Snape and Lily would have eventually drifted apart. We would have to assume that he continued to be interested in the Dark Arts and stayed friends with Avery and Mulciber. I think that Lily would have slowly and gently ended the friendship. Of course, once Snape became a Death Eater, all contact would have ended, I would think.

I don't think that Snape was ready at that time to have a reciprocal love relationship with Lily. I think it was a very typical teen thing in which Snape at that time thought there were other things more important to him than love.

So, Lily and Snape... Snape and Lily...

I have always wondered what would have happened if the mudblood incident never happened. Would they have stayed together? Was Snape capable of a relationship with Lily?



As much as I love the idea of a Lily/Snape relaitonship, I think that by the time of the mudblood incident, their relationship was already strained and rocky. I think Lily was just looking for a reason to end the relaitonship. And it was obvious that Snape wasnt going to leave his group of friends to satisfy Lily, so I think she would have eventually ended it anyway.

As for if Snape was capable of a relationship with Lily, I dont think so either. There were things more important to him than making Lily happy, so I dont think any romantic realtionship between them would have ever worked out.

I doubt whether they (the potential DE mob) were 'true' friends since we see no contact later on.

Now back to the topic of others. Many people think there were a lot of other brave people in this story. I agree and most were in Gryffindor. However Severus was jsut as brave (if not little more later on since he had to face and deal with Voldemort an excellent mind reader and shut out all thoughts about Albus, the Order and the plan). Now that's pretty scary and he was in Slytherin - who might be cunning but going by Draco and his goons - ar not particularly brave.

Lily was brave because.... we all know why.

Severus was brave because...... etc etc.

Both were brave and I wonder if Lily saw that potential in Severus when she first befriended him - like some ort of witch instinct?

I have always wondered what would have happened if the mudblood incident never happened. Would they have stayed together? Was Snape capable of a relationship with Lily?

Well, the Mudblood Incident wasn't the reason that made Lily drop the friendship with Snape, IMO. The Mudblood incident was just the last straw and made Lily realize she couldn't pretend that Snape was the same person that she knew when she first met him. It's Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts, attitude towards Muggles/Muggleborns and friendships that caused her to end the friendship. If there wasn't a Mudblood incident, it wouldn't have changed the fact that Snape was doing things that she loathed, and I don't think a romantic relationship would have bloomed because of that.

Also, assuming everything remained the same an mudblood was used, would there have been anything Snape could have done to win Lily back as his friend? Would leaving his friends behind have been enough?

Leaving his friends would help, but it probably would have taken more for him to gain her friendship again. He also had to stop having a fascination with the Dark Arts and regarding Muggles and Muggleborns haughtily.

Their interactions always seemed a little strained. They didn't seem to mesh. They might have stayed friends, but I suspect they might have drifted apart like a lot of friends do as they grow and change.

That is true. As much as I think he loved her, they were very different and may have drifted at some time. But, I think a lot of the strain was Snape being so uncomfortable. He never seemed to relax...

I'm convinced that had he dumped the DE friends, bigoted attitudes, and Dark Arts, she would have resumed the friendship. Lily was rather annoyed with James after SWM, but he took her hint and improved his behavior. She took notice and dated him.

That is an excellent point. Do you think it could have been the same for Snape or would they have remained friends only?

Leaving his friends would help, but it probably would have taken more for him to gain her friendship again. He also had to stop having a fascination with the Dark Arts and regarding Muggles and Muggleborns haughtily.
I also think Snape would have had to have started to actually listen to Lily, and get to know the woman she was growing in to, imo. I think the two had serious communication issues that needed to be resolved if they ever wanted a healthy, stable relationship.

I am personally of the opinion that by the time Snape got it together it would be too late. It is doubtful that Snape would ever be able to abide James and visa versa and since they were a couple, there would not likely be room for Snape in Lily's life, imo. Just speaking realistically because, imo, I doubt she'd be willing to cause friction with her relationship with her soul mate to try and be friendly with someone who hated him and didn't bother to hide it.

I am personally of the opinion that by the time Snape got it together it would be too late. It is doubtful that Snape would ever be able to abide James and visa versa and since they were a couple, there would not likely be room for Snape in Lily's life, imo. Just speaking realistically because, imo, I doubt she'd be willing to cause friction with her relationship with her soul mate to try and be friendly with someone who hated him and didn't bother to hide it.
I agree :agree: I don't think there was anyway Snape and Lily's friendship could get past Lily's romantic relationship with James. Snape would have been very jealous imo and I think his jealousy has lead him onto really lashing out in the past - For example, he slashed James' cheek open right after he asked Lily out, and we are also told Snape never lost an opportunity in seventh year to hex James - the same year Lily and James finally started going out. He also bullied and verbally abused Harry, the living proof that Lily preferred another man over him. Imo, I think all of these things sprouted from jealousy. I think that once Lily started dating James, her relationship with Snape (or what was left) would have definitely been over. Jmo of course.

That is an excellent point. Do you think it could have been the same for Snape or would they have remained friends only?Only if James wasn't around. James and Lily were soulmates and better suited for each other. Snape would have needed to get a personality transplant. I just don't see a love match. He was never anything more than a friend. He was not a boyfriend for her.

That is why I felt that when Lily chose James, she decided to drop Snape, because she knew they woulod never agree with or even tolerate each other. The moment she started looking at James in a romantic manner, she started moving away from Snape IMO.

That is why I felt that when Lily chose James, she decided to drop Snape, because she knew they woulod never agree with or even tolerate each other. The moment she started looking at James in a romantic manner, she started moving away from Snape IMO.
She didn't start dating James until over a year after she left Snape. IMO, James had absolutely nothing to do with the end of Lily's relationship with Snape. Lily had more than enough reasons for dropping Snape without James being involved imo. The main reasons imo being he was aspiring to be a death eater and openly showed prejudice of her kind.

If James hadn't grown up in 6th/7th year, I seriously doubt Lily would have dated him, so I don't know what you mean by her "choosing" James in 5th year.

She didn't start dating James until over a year after she left Snape. IMO, James had absolutely nothing to do with the end of Lily's relationship with Snape. Lily had more than enough reasons for dropping Snape without James being involved imo. The main reasons imo being he was aspiring to be a death eater and openly showed prejudice of her kind.

If James hadn't grown up in 6th/7th year, I seriously doubt Lily would have dated him, so I don't know what you mean by her "choosing" James in 5th year.

Seeing James in her mind, as someone more than an arrogant toerag was what I meant. :)

Lily did not go out with James until middle or so of 7th year; I do think she started seing him differently from the arrogant toerag after the werewold incident. And from then on IMO she starts moving away from Snape.

Seeing James in her mind, as someone more than an arrogant toerag was what I meant. :)

Lily did not go out with James until middle or so of 7th year; I do think she started seing him differently from the arrogant toerag after the werewold incident. And from then on IMO she starts moving away from Snape.

I think it could be debatable as to whether she is moving away from Snape on her own or he is driving her away with his attitude. The breakup did not happen just because of Lily's mindset, it takes two to tango and Snape was out of step. IMO

That is why I felt that when Lily chose James, she decided to drop Snape, because she knew they woulod never agree with or even tolerate each other. The moment she started looking at James in a romantic manner, she started moving away from Snape IMO.James was always a romantic interest for Lily. Snape never was. He wasn't her boyfriend. In her eyes, he wasn't even her potential boyfriend. It was never a choice between them. How she felt about James had nothing to do with how she felt about Snape.

She stopped being friends with Snape because of his behavior, but she wasn't dating him. Nor did she see him in that light. Her feelings about James had nothing to do with why she stopped being friends with Snape.

Only if James wasn't around. James and Lily were soulmates and better suited for each other. Snape would have needed to get a personality transplant. I just don't see a love match. He was never anything more than a friend. He was not a boyfriend for her.

:lol: Personality transplant! Do they have those because I know a few people who could use one :D

I agree though. I do think James and Lily were meant for each other, although I wish I could have seen more of their relationship. I am so curious as to how they got together... It makes me feel for Snape though. My heart goes out to him in his unrequited love. I think too, that if they were to remain friends, that unrequited love would have been hard for Snape to carry especially when seeing Lily and James together.

I think too, that if they were to remain friends, that unrequited love would have been hard for Snape to carry especially when seeing Lily and James together.
I hadn't thought about that. His jealousy (that Lily didn't realize was there) was already a problem for him. That's really why he followed the Marauders around trying to get them into trouble. It would have been worse once she started dating James. It probably would have meant the end of the friendship anyway.

I think too, that if they were to remain friends, that unrequited love would have been hard for Snape to carry especially when seeing Lily and James together.

You bring up a very interesting point here. I think that when Lily and James eventually got together, it would have been very difficult for Snape to handle. I dont think that he would be able to ocntrol his jealousy for too long, and would very possibly have caused the end of their friendship anyway.

I think it could be debatable as to whether she is moving away from Snape on her own or he is driving her away with his attitude. The breakup did not happen just because of Lily's mindset, it takes two to tango and Snape was out of step. IMO

She stopped being friends with Snape because of his behavior, but she wasn't dating him. Nor did she see him in that light. Her feelings about James had nothing to do with why she stopped being friends with Snape.

Snape was causing her a lot of concern by his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber IMO. But had Lily not started looking at James differently, I think she would have given Snape an ultimatum. She did not and knowing Snape wanted the friendsip chose to end it IMO, never asking Snape was he prepared to leave Avery and Mulciber or was her friendship with him not so important IMO.

Had Snape persisted in hanging out with Avery and Mulciber Lily would have ended the friendship IMO; but that would have looked to me a more natural ending than this, with Snape firmly guilty.

posted by gipro2003
You bring up a very interesting point here. I think that when Lily and James eventually got together, it would have been very difficult for Snape to handle. I dont think that he would be able to ocntrol his jealousy for too long, and would very possibly have caused the end of their friendship anyway.

I think so too. I also think that James would not like Lily's friendship with Snape. Therre was real dislike between Snape and James and I am not sure if they would have tolerated each other IMO. I also think Lily knew it too.

But had Lily not started looking at James differently, I think she would have given Snape an ultimatum. She did not and knowing Snape wanted the friendsip chose to end it IMO, never asking Snape was he prepared to leave Avery and Mulciber or was her friendship with him not so important IMO.But Snape wasn't her boyfriend. Lily didn't view him as such. So no matter what she thought of James, it had nothing to do with what she thought of Snape. Snape was just a friend, not a boyfriend. She wouldn't stop liking a childhood friend because she had mild attraction, at the time, for someone who she might consider as a boyfriend some time in the future (James) if he stopped acting like a jerk. She wasn't romantically interested in Snape, so there would be no reason for her think differently of him because of any opinion she held of James.

As for ultimatums, that conversation with Snape sounded like they had had it many times before. We weren't show every minute they spent together or every conversation they had together. Jo showed us key points in their friendship. Jo showed us what bothered Lily, and we didn't need to see multiple conversations over the same thing. Besides, had Snape taken the hint and dropped the Dark Arts, the Jr. DEs, aspiring to be a DE, and bigoted name-calling, Lily would have noticed and resumed the friendship. She did give him an ultimatum, but he didn't pay attention.

This was a book. Lily and Snape were never destined to be together. James was Lily's soulmate. Snape was just a childhood friend who down a bad dark path. There weren't any other conversations since the readers didn't need them to understand the issues, and they certainly wouldn't have turned out any differently (both due to the plot needs and the people involved). It was not Lily's fault that Snape made his mistakes. He was tone deaf to her concerns. Nor was Lily's feelings about James related to why she stopped being friends with Snape.

Snape was never a potential boyfriend for her. Please understand that. Lily viewed Snape and James in entirely different ways.

It wasn't just Avery and Mulciber that bothered her. It was Snape's interest in the Dark Arts. It was Snape aspiring to join Voldemort. It was Snape being bigoted and calling people Mudbloods. And none of this had anything to do with James.

Come on guys I think everyone is free to draw their own interpretations. Let's all respect each other's opinions here.

It wasn't Lily's fault or James's fault or anyone's fault but Snape's that she ended the friendship.

Maybe so but we cannot presume to know what might have happened if James continued to be an arrogant to-rag and Severus ditched his DE friends and gave up the Dark Arts stuff because - who knows - anything can happen - many VERY attractive women have found love with physically unattractive men. Snape had the potential to become a mentally attractive man - goven different circumstances and I think Albus might have seem this potential when he said that he thought that sometimes they sorted too soon....

Seeing James in her mind, as someone more than an arrogant toerag was what I meant. :)
But seeing James in a different light was not a choice of Lily's. She couldn't help it, and imo, she probably didn't like the fact she was attracted to an arrogant toerag at first. Her choice in year five was not to go out with him, because she didn't want a romantic relationship with a 'bullying toerag'. Imo, at the end of fifth year, she turned her back on both these men.

Snape was never a potential boyfriend for her. Please understand that. Lily viewed Snape and James in entirely different ways.
Exactly :agree: You don't drop your friends when you get a boyfriend, you drop your other romantic interests, imo.

Imo, Lily didn't even think of James when making the final decision to end her friendship with Snape. Like you said, it wasn't just the fact Snape was hanging out with Mulciber and Avery; it was also because of his interest in the dark arts, his open prejudice, and his interest in becoming a death eater. Imo, these are more than enough reasons to end a friendship; James wasn't involved when Lily made her choice imo.

However Lily might not have been ready at that age to be romantically involved with anyone and if Severus had not been involved with potential DE's and the Dark Arts he just MIGHT have stood a chance..... and then James the arrogant toe rag would have been dispensable....?

However Lily might not have been ready at that age to be romantically involved with anyone and if Severus had not been involved with potential DE's and the Dark Arts he just MIGHT have stood a chance..... and then James the arrogant toe rag would have been dispensable....?
That's a pretty big "what if" imo. However even if Snape had never been involved with the DE's or Dark Arts, I still think there would have been some major issues in the Lily and Snape relationship - mainly the fact that the two had serious communication issues and communication is vital to any healthy, stable relationship imo.

It wasn't Lily's fault or James's fault or anyone's fault but Snape's that she ended the friendship.

I agree with this. Only I added that Lily may have been influenced by her liking for James (and I find no fault in that; if she likes James; she likes him, Snape was her friend; just because he loved her and wanted her to love him, she need not try and love him back IMO) to move away from Snape; otherwise, I really think she would have been furious with him for calling her *mudblood* and she would have sat him down and pointed it out to him, that he was doing all this because he was hanging with them. And since she never ever would take their side; Snape had better decide what he wanted to choose. Her or them. I think had she done that Snape would have chosen her friendship, because he did choose her after she got married, when she was targeted IMO.

She did not IMO was because she had I feel decide to stop being friendly to Snape, knowing perhaps (I'm not sure though) Snape and James would never get along; and since she liked James, she chose him and stopped being friends with Snape IMO.

By saying this I am not trying to say Snape made no mistakes, but only the outcome was decided by one friend, instead of the friendship falling apart because both the friends could not agree to a compromise, or because one friend would not listen to the choice and the warning presented by the other to change his ways IMO.

She did not IMO was because she had I feel decide to stop being friendly to Snape, knowing perhaps (I'm not sure though) Snape and James would never get along; and since she liked James, she chose him and stopped being friends with Snape IMO.
IMO, she turned her back on both boys at the end of fifth year. She refused James' offer for a date, told him he made her sick, then turned her back on him and stormed off. She told Snape she couldn't pretend anymore, she said he had chosen his way and she had chosen hers, and she turned her back on him and stormed off into the common room.

IMO, she turned her back on both boys at the end of fifth year. She refused James' offer for a date, told him he made her sick, then turned her back on him and stormed off. She told Snape she couldn't pretend anymore, she said he had chosen his way and she had chosen hers, and she turned her back on him and stormed off into the common room.

Yes she did; but the werewolf incident showed me, that Lily was seeing James in a different light (my assessment of Lily's feelings from canon; that memory specifically) and I don't think it changed in the SWM. That she did not go out with James is no yardstick to her personal feelings IMO.

As to pretending to be Snape's friend, I am in doubt about this; I think currently that Lily was pretending to be Snape's friend from the time of the werewolf incident. I don't know, I need to re-read it again.

Yes she did; but the werewolf incident showed me, that Lily was seeing James in a different light (my assessment of Lily's feelings from canon; that memory specifically) and I don't think it changed in the SWM. That she did not go out with James is no yardstick to her personal feelings IMO.
The werewolf incident occured before SWM. Before she flatly refused to date James. It was not up to her to decide who she crushed on imo, but it was up to her to make the choice on what she wanted to do about it. IMO, her choice was more important to her character than something she could not help - the crush. And she chose to turn her back on both men at the end of fifth year. I don't think she was going to let a crush on James sway her judgement on him, and I also think she realised she could not let whatever love she had left for Snape at the end of 5th year sway her judgement on him either.

As to pretending to be Snape's friend, I am in doubt about this; I think currently that Lily was pretending to be Snape's friend from the time of the werewolf incident. I don't know, I need to re-read it again.
In TPT she said something along the lines of, "I can't pretend anymore!". But I need to reread it too :p

IMO, she turned her back on both boys at the end of fifth year. She refused James' offer for a date, told him he made her sick, then turned her back on him and stormed off. She told Snape she couldn't pretend anymore, she said he had chosen his way and she had chosen hers, and she turned her back on him and stormed off into the common room.

But her actions & her words may not have married well. I may be wrong but I seem to remember that a smile caught the corner of her mouth. to me that implies that her feelings might have been a little mixed - she turned him down, told him of but still had to surpress a smile.

maybe that why some people think her feelings about James maight have had a influence.

Just a thought

But her actions & her words may not have married well. I may be wrong but I seem to remember that a smile caught the corner of her mouth. to me that implies that her feelings might have been a little mixed - she turned him down, told him of but still had to surpress a smile.
I'm not denying she didn't have a crush on James - I think she did as well. But she could not help that. It was not in her power. On the other hand, turning her back on James because she found his behavior dispicable was perfectly within her power. Just as turning her back on Snape because she found his behavior dispicable was within her power, despite the fact she couldn't help the lingering feelings of love for him (if there were any at that point).

I don't think James influenced her decision to leave Snape, but I respect your opinion if you do :)

I'm not denying she didn't have a crush on James - I think she did as well. But she could not help that. It was not in her power. On the other hand, turning her back on James because she found his behavior dispicable was perfectly within her power. Just as turning her back on Snape because she found his behavior dispicable was within her power, despite the fact she couldn't help the lingering feelings of love for him (if there were any at that point).

I don't think James influenced her decision to leave Snape, but I respect your opinion if you do :)

While I was writing my last post lots of little posts went up (tipically!)

Personally I'm not sure if it was a factor or not.

As someone said we should not chose our friends by the people we fancy/have a crush on – unfortunately not everyone acts as they should and some people will, on occasion, dump friends because of the people they fancy/have a crush.

I can see that her crush may have influenced her, maybe subtly leading to her having less patients than she may have had otherwise. I’m not say it did but I can see a possibility of it having an impact, even if it’s not direct.

I agree. I don't think Lily could help but compare Snape with James - or with other friends of hers that were male (none of whom would be involved in dark activities). I think it would have some influence on her. And since she had a crush on James, his influence might be a little greater. But any influence James had did not go as far as to make Lily drop Snape as a friend in order to be with James. She told James off too. So any influence by her male friends that she may have compared to Snape only highlighted his faults to her, imo.

I agree. I don't think Lily could help but compare Snape with James - or with other friends of hers that were male (none of whom would be involved in dark activities). I think it would have some influence on her. And since she had a crush on James, his influence might be a little greater. But any influence James had did not go as far as to make Lily drop Snape as a friend in order to be with James. She told James off too. So any influence by her male friends that she may have compared to Snape only highlighted his faults to her, imo.
Ah, now that I can agree with. I seriously doubt any influence James had went as far as making Lily drop Snape in order to be with James. Especially since she refused his advances in 5th year and didn't date him until over a year after she dropped Snape.

I do think it was probably only natural for her to compare Snape to her other current friends, and possibly crush. Or Snape's behavior compared to anyone else's at Hogwarts. IMO, I think she could see there were better people than Snape at Hogwarts (based on her own personal morals and beliefs), people easier to get along with, and even James at his worst (imo and again, based on what how I interpretted Lily's morals and beliefs) wasn't as bad as a person who's future goal was to be a death eater. I think she probably slowly started thinking about having a life without Snape, and then maybe the cons just outweighed the pros.

Ah, now that I can agree with. I seriously doubt any influence James had went as far as making Lily drop Snape in order to be with James. Especially since she refused his advances in 5th year and didn't date him until over a year after she dropped Snape.

I do think it was probably only natural for her to compare Snape to her other current friends, and possibly crush. Or Snape's behavior compared to anyone else's at Hogwarts. IMO, I think she could see there were better people than Snape at Hogwarts (based on her own personal morals and beliefs), people easier to get along with, and even James at his worst (imo and again, based on what how I interpretted Lily's morals and beliefs) wasn't as bad as a person who's future goal was to be a death eater. I think she probably slowly started thinking about having a life without Snape, and then maybe the cons just outweighed the pros.


It is entirely possible for her to compare yes... but I don't think she compared them in the same way. She was not romantically into Snape and therefore I don't think she compared the two (James/Snape) as potential dates.

I have always wondered what would have happened if the mudblood incident never happened. Would they have stayed together? Was Snape capable of a relationship with Lily?

I think Lily/Snape is way too romanticized than it really is. I can't see them being friends as adults. They grew up to be such different people who I think are not compatible.

I feel think Lily/Snape is way too romanticized than it really is. I can't see them being friends as adults. They grew up to be such different people who I think are not compatible.
I agree :agree: I always felt their relationship was based more on circumstance, rather than on real compatibility. JMO of course.

I always felt their relationship was based more on circumstance, rather than on real compatibility.

I disagree. The circumstances changed radically when they went to Hogwarts yet their friendship lasted for another 5 years. It takes more than habit to do that.

I feel think Lily/Snape is way too romanticized than it really is. I can't see them being friends as adults. They grew up to be such different people who I think are not compatible.

I do agree with this somewhat but for different reasons. I see it more of a hardship for Snape to continue the relationship. Lily does marry James and I do not imagine that would be easy for Snape to take and have in front of him on a daily basis while he remains Lily's friend. I think it would hurt too much...

I disagree. The circumstances changed radically when they went to Hogwarts yet their friendship lasted for another 5 years. It takes more than habit to do that.

I so agree Yoana. They were not exactly the same; however, I think that they formed a strong friendship. They had magic in common and their living area and they shared a lot growing up. For a very long time, they were all each other had and that is something that keeps a friendship strong. It was unfortunate that things turned the way they did and that they drifted apart but that was outside influence and Snape's stupidity and possibly even a bit of Lily's own doing for not trying harder or giving him another chance... although I don't know if I could have either. Again I wish I had more information :(

I do agree with this somewhat but for different reasons. I see it more of a hardship for Snape to continue the relationship. Lily does marry James and I do not imagine that would be easy for Snape to take and have in front of him on a daily basis while he remains Lily's friend. I think it would hurt too much...

I think if Snape can't maintain a relationship with Lily because of James, that is just immature. He should learn to tolerate James for Lily's sake (and of course, James should learn to tolerate Snape as well :)).

I disagree. The circumstances changed radically when they went to Hogwarts yet their friendship lasted for another 5 years. It takes more than habit to do that.
The circumstances changed, and so did the friendship. By the time we see them next, they have grown into very different people, with conflicting ideals. They seem to have nothing in common.

I think Lily/Snape is way too romanticized than it really is. I can't see them being friends as adults. They grew up to be such different people who I think are not compatible.
I agree. The only reason they became friends was because Snape was in a position to tell Lily about the magical world. They were the only magical children in that neighbourhood, and thus, sort of forced together. I think that Lily stayed friends with Snape for all that time out of a sense of loyalty, and for sentimental reasons.

There's also the fact that Snape and Lily were neighbours, which meant that they always had some time to spend together during the vacation. Most importantly, there was nothing that Snape could do that could upset Lily, no (dark) magic, and no Death Nibbler buddies. Besides, having a friend to spend summers with would be much better than being stuck with a sister who thought of you as a freak. I think that spending that much time with a benign Snape convinced Lily that there was still hope for him. Effectively, it was like starting anew for them, every year.

Of course, all that changed in their fifth year, and in the summer afterwards, Snape wasn't able to make up for the school time, as before.

I think if Snape can't maintain a relationship with Lily because of James, that is just immature. He should learn to tolerate James for Lily's sake (and of course, James should learn to tolerate Snape as well :)).
It's not always that easy, or simple, especially when Snape is hopelessly in love with Lily. It is made all the harder for Snape, because Lily was never just a friend to him, and he couldn't just go 'back' to just being friends. IMO, If it had been a friendship that later developed into an attraction, perhaps Snape would have been able to let it go.

But Snape wasn't her boyfriend. Lily didn't view him as such. So no matter what she thought of James, it had nothing to do with what she thought of Snape. Snape was just a friend, not a boyfriend. She wouldn't stop liking a childhood friend because she had mild attraction, at the time, for someone who she might consider as a boyfriend some time in the future (James) if he stopped acting like a jerk. She wasn't romantically interested in Snape, so there would be no reason for her think differently of him because of any opinion she held of James.

As for ultimatums, that conversation with Snape sounded like they had had it many times before. We weren't show every minute they spent together or every conversation they had together. Jo showed us key points in their friendship. Jo showed us what bothered Lily, and we didn't need to see multiple conversations over the same thing. Besides, had Snape taken the hint and dropped the Dark Arts, the Jr. DEs, aspiring to be a DE, and bigoted name-calling, Lily would have noticed and resumed the friendship. She did give him an ultimatum, but he didn't pay attention.

This was a book. Lily and Snape were never destined to be together. James was Lily's soulmate. Snape was just a childhood friend who down a bad dark path. There weren't any other conversations since the readers didn't need them to understand the issues, and they certainly wouldn't have turned out any differently (both due to the plot needs and the people involved). It was not Lily's fault that Snape made his mistakes. He was tone deaf to her concerns. Nor was Lily's feelings about James related to why she stopped being friends with Snape.

Snape was never a potential boyfriend for her. Please understand that. Lily viewed Snape and James in entirely different ways.

It wasn't just Avery and Mulciber that bothered her. It was Snape's interest in the Dark Arts. It was Snape aspiring to join Voldemort. It was Snape being bigoted and calling people Mudbloods. And none of this had anything to do with James.


Great post! :tu:

Jumping in here because I've been absent for a while and I haven't caught up yet.

I am 100% convinced that the ending of Lily and Snape's friendship was due to the basic incompatibility of their two characters, and Snape's own choices, eg to continue down the path to becoming a Death Eater even though the girl he claimed to be devoted to warned him against it. Snape was blinded by his hatred for James. Lily, on the other hand, wasn't blinded. She liked James, but I do not believe that this affected her feelings for Snape.

Jo actually said that Lily could have developed romantic feelings for Snape if he hadn't been obsessed with the Dark Arts. She did notsay that Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape if James hadn't been around. James never stole Lily from Snape. Instead, James and Lily were destined to be together from their very conception (in Jo's imagination). They are the hero's parents. Their very existence in the books springs from Harry, the hero, needing parents. They exist as a couple.

Snape's role is different. He is the anti-hero, the substitute villain, the man who makes Harry's life as miserable as he can, yet remains loyal to Dumbledore to the end, and makes great personal sacrifices. Lily is an essential part of Snape's background and his motivation, but Snape is a fairly insignificant part of Lily's background. He illustrates her kindly nature, her passion for helping the underdog, her compassion ... And he also illustrates her unswerving moral values, and her refusal to compromise these values when her good friend had gone too far down the path to the Dark Arts for her to condone or excuse his actions any more. And it's worth noting that Lily condemned James's behaviour as well as Snape's, and didn't start dating him until he'd "shrunk his head" and stopped behaving like a prat! Perhaps if Snape had done the same ... :huh:

Welcome back Anabel! :huggles:

Snape's role is different. He is the anti-hero, the substitute villain, the man who makes Harry's life as miserable as he can, yet remains loyal to Dumbledore to the end, and makes great personal sacrifices. Lily is an essential part of Snape's background and his motivation, but Snape is a fairly insignificant part of Lily's background. He illustrates her kindly nature, her passion for helping the underdog, her compassion ... And he also illustrates her unswerving moral values, and her refusal to compromise these values when her good friend had gone too far down the path to the Dark Arts for her to condone or excuse his actions any more. And it's worth noting that Lily condemned James's behaviour as well as Snape's, and didn't start dating him until he'd "shrunk his head" and stopped behaving like a prat! Perhaps if Snape had done the same ...
Very well put! You know that is what I find so sad about Snape - all the "If only's"

I guess I don't see it the way that most people on here seem to. To me it was Lily that ended the relationship, and I believe it could have developed into one. As someone who was picked on all through school just because my family couldn't afford to buy new cloths, I can completely understand Snape hatred of James. I don't think anyone who has never been bullied can understand what its like. If I had had access to magic during school I would have been sourly tempted by what ever magic dark or not that I thought would help me. Yes James and them never resorted to dark magic but they didn't have to, Severus did just to even the score of two against one! :no:

You put someone in a position of weakness like that and of course they are going to be drawn to power. When I was in high school I was fascinated with vampires, not because I was into anything gothic but because they were always portrayed as powerful, they could do anything, above the law, above being controlled. I who felt like I had no control over my life and had no way out, was very draw to that symbol of power and being able to be above those people who tormented me on a daily basis for things that where totally out of my control.

I really don't think Lily was a very good friend to Snape, even if she didn't feel as strongly about him, she should have never ended a friendship over one word when she was the one that hurt him first. There he was being picked on and embarrassed in front of everyone by the person he hated the most and the person he cared about most in the whole world almost laughed! I can not imagine how badly that would have hurt. :no: Of course he would have lashed out at her wanting to hurt her as badly as she had just hurt him.

I say she should have been more understanding and tried harder to get him away from the junior death eaters! Story Plot line aside I think that they could have had a great relationship. In fact I'm reading an excellent fanfiction in which she does forgive him, and is able to bring him around. (In case anyone is interested it's called "The Road Not Taken" on Fanfiction net) And before anyone jumps done my throat YES I know it's not canon, but I thought it was very well written and believably shows what might have been if Lily had gotten her head out of her... Uh stopped and thought about what had happened and been willing to give Snape a second chance.

I'm sorry but I just don't like James anymore after finding out what he did. Because being young and stupid is just not an excuse for bad behavior and treating fellow human beings like dirt!

Sorry for the late reply! 'Tis the price of getting a life. :relax:

Actually, the more likely culprit - or culprits - for secrets like that getting around the school so quickly is the portraits. You know, the ones that can move around and visit other portraits in the castle - and talk to each other and the students. ;)

We see this throughout the series with Harry. In the first book, only Harry and Dumbledore knew that Harry had fought Quirrell in the dungeon. Ron and Hermione both thought they were going to fact Snape and neither of them saw Quirrell. How did that story get around the whole school? Most likely through the portraits. In GOF, the portrait from the room off the Great Hall where the champions were sent rushed out to tell other portraits what had happened in that room - she was telling the Fat Lady by the time Harry got back to Gryffindor tower. In OOTP, Terry Boot reveals that one of the portraits in the headmaster's office told him about Harry killing the basilisk with the sword in second year.

So the portraits would be the most likely source for such gossip. Even so, they had enough respect for Dumbledore's wishes not to reveal the details involved or go around presenting a "theory" that Lupin was a werewolf. All Lily knew was that James had saved Snape's life at that point - she didn't know the details about what had happened.

That’s a great point! :D The portraits tend to be the ones to spread the news the most. The ghosts and Peeves would be very likely candidates as well, too, I believe. Moaning Myrtle made sure that the rest of the school found out about the incident when Harry used Sectumsempra (right? I may be wrong since I need to re-read :whistle:) Peeves also spreads news since he usually yells out information so the rest of the school will know, such as the time when Harry was caught in CoS standing next to the petrified ghost and student and when Peeves yelled that Harry was taking Luna on a date. Lily could easily have learned information from students, students that only learned about the information from the biggest gossip-spreaders in the books.

The same could be said of Lily and James. We never see a scene where they are getting along nicely, but there is no doubt that they did. This is not James, Lily's or Snape's story so we cannot be shown everything on page. I take it that Snape and Lily did have a good friendship because it survived to fifth year despite them being in different houses and those houses being the biggest rivals.

But we do see Lily get along with James. We see the photograph showing Lily and James arm in arm, laughing along with Sirius. We get the chance to read a letter from Lily depicting a loving family and her concern for James. We know their Patronuses matched because they were each other’s “happy thoughts.” There is so much that points that they were in love and happy, and that makes their story much more believable to me than Snape and Lily’s friendship.

I would also like to raise a point about the idea that Snape went down there knowing what he would find; obviously it’s my opinion / interpretation. :)

It’s pretty clear in canon that Snape knew what he’d see if he went down the tunnel, IMO. Lily said she heard of his theories before. There’s more proof of this, too.

”It served him right,” he sneered. “Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled. . . .

He had long been trying to figure out what they were doing and, judging by Lily’s words, he had a strong suspicion about what he would meet at the end of the tunnel.

The event occurred out of bounds & after curfew; so it is exceedingly unlikely there were any other students in the vicinity, there can’t have been portraits there & I don’t recall ghosts in the grounds (although I could be wrong on that point) – so the only people who knew about it at the moment it was happening were; Sirius, Snape & James (I discount Remus as he seems to be unable to remember anything about being in wolf form once he reverts to human).

But what occurred must have spread around to all the professors, just like how they all found out that Harry used Sectumsempra. Another person/portrait/ghost/etc. could have easily heard that and spread it around the school. I don’t see any proof that James is the most likely candidate for telling Lily. Lily said that she heard about what happened, not that James told her. On the contrary, I don’t think James would risk letting others know because it would raise questions about what was at the end of the tunnel. He was loyal to Remus and I don’t think he’d jeopardize that by trying to make himself look like a hero to Lily.

But they were friends for over 5 years – that in itself implies something must have been good about it,

Friendship isn’t automatically a good one just because they were friends for a long time. Peter was friends with the other Marauders for a long time yet he betrayed them anyway, implying that their friendship wasn’t as strong as the others thought.

as IMO does the fact that Lily tried really hard to keep the friendship even when her other friends spoke against it.[ Severus being a logical man may easily have assumed that would be enough besides the falling apart of the relationship & the fact that Snape regretted it are far more important, in terms of plot, than seeing what good friends they may have been /were.

I do understand all of that, but that doesn’t mean that there’s a strong friendship for me, personally. In almost every scene we have of them there is an argument and their morals were miles apart from each other. Even though they considered themselves to be best friends, I always thought that was a label rather than the true definition of their friendship.

Ok – I have to admit I don’t feel comfortable using the word ‘prejudice’ in relation to Snape, especially 'school boy Snape'. In relation to other characters, such as the Malfoy’s, I have no such qualms. It all comes own to the word ‘Prejudice’ which means a judgment or opinion made without any basis in fact. In the case of many wizards, such as the Malfoy’s, this is indeed what happens – they hold opinions that have no basis in fact. Snape on the other hand starts at Hogwarts with only/predominantly negative experiences of muggles. (see P24, posts 479, 484 & 485). His opinion, even though it is incorrect, has a solid basis in fact – therefore it does not seem to me to qualify as prejudice.

I apologize, you are correct about the definition of prejudice. :) In relation to Muggles, Snape was being stereotypical (“A too-simple and therefore distorted image of a group”) by assuming that Muggles are as bad as his father. With Muggleborns, however, he was being prejudiced because he had no basis in fact for looking down at them. Those are more accurate terms, IMO.

Whether or not I agree with your main point the werewolf incident at the very least shows Sirius doing something that James disagrees with strongly enough to endanger himself to stop. I always imagined an argument or two about it after the fact, after all not only did he put someone at serious risk of death or becoming a werewolf, he also risked exposing Remus & getting him thrown out of school.

Me too, but I won’t get into this since this isn’t the right thread. If you wish to discuss it somewhere else (the Marauder thread would be the best option), I’ll be happy to discuss it.

Yes, the Wuthering Heights parallel also exists - but it too is imperfect as a direct parallel – e.g. Cathy & Heathcliff’s love for each other was not unrequited – far from it they were both crazy about each other (in SO many ways! :lol:) however the way it spills over to affect many people across generations is defiantly IMO present in the HP series. As is the idea that our childhood affects how we value & expect others to value us; & the idea that no matter how much you love someone you can still make really bad choices that ruin everything.
Beatifically mentioned that a more apt literary parallel might be Heathcliff/Cathy rather than Romeo/Juliet. I can see some parallels with the Romeo/Juliet themes, as Kittling suggested, in that Snape and Lily come from two opposing Houses: the House with a pure-blood agenda and the House that opposes pure-blood prejudice. However, a much more apt Romeo/Juliet analogy would be Draco/Hermione and that of course is a fanon pairing, not a canon one. :D

The Heathcliff comparison often crops up in relation to Snape. :D (I do think Snape was a better man than Heathcliff though. :whistle: ) However, Heathcliff/Cathy are soulmates (very dark soulmates -- they are both as selfish and unpleasant as the other!!) and their love is requited. That is not the case with Snape/Lily, which turns out to be unrequited love.

You are both correct; the romance between Heathcliff and Cathy was not unrequited. I was only thinking about Heathcliff and how he is similar to Snape, except I think Snape is much better than he was. ;)


Oh my gosh I just remembered something! Since Lily had a love for potions perhaps that's why Snape took the potions master job when Dumbeldore wouldn't let him have the Deffence Against the Dark Arts job.

I always thought it was clear that Snape wanted to have the DADA job since he admitted himself that he asked for that job every year. . . .

In the majority of cases this is true but it cannot be applied to every single human being.

That is true, but people are capable of getting past the grief. If Snape made the conscious choice to move on, he could have. It would undermine his ability – and all others’ – to assume that he couldn’t have done so, IMO.

Perhaps one of several the reasons was due to peer pressure as well as her own moral stance. If I were Lily I would have taken him aside and explained fully why I was reluctantly ending the friendship and said to Sev that if he really valued their friendship he should think about what he was doing and giving him a chance to think about it - like a week or two. I'd also explain how hurt I was by being called a mudblood and that I thought that James and Sirius were arrogant Toe- Rags which Lily thought at the time and that Sev should just not have anything to do with them - ignore them and hopefully they would do the same. That's what I think Lily should have done.

But Lily already tried to tell Snape that what he was doing was wrong, but he chose to ignore her warning and only listened to the part when she insulted James. It’s not as if she hadn’t done it before for DH shows us that she did try to tell Snape but he wouldn’t listen.

And about the breakup scene. . . . Well, I do agree that Lily didn’t handle it very well, but I can understand why she did that. Not many breakups between friends are pretty. Lily was hurt and outraged by Snape’s behavior, IMO, and I think that explains her behavior. It would make sense for Lily to behave so strongly to that opposed to another friend because she thought Snape was her best friend. Also, I don’t know if Lily is the calm type; she strikes me as pretty hotheaded. It would have been out of character for her to break a friendship calmly.

It was never a choice between Snape and James. Snape was a childhood friend that she didn't see in a romantic light, period. James was an immature schoolmate who she might have felt some attraction for, but clearly didn't want to date until he matured, since it was over a year before she did.

There would be no reason for Lily to want to stop being friends with Snape due to James. Again, attributing their breakup to that overlooks what was really wrong, which was Snape's bigotry, friends (Jr. DEs), and interests (Dark Magic and Voldemort). She stopped being friends with Snape because of his bad choices, not because of an attraction to James. It wasn't the choice between one boyfriend and another. Snape was not viewed that way. He was viewed as a friend way too far down a dark and destructive path.

It was Snape's fault they stopped being friends, not Lily's future romantic interests.

:tu: Wonderfully put, CBW! I don’t think that it was ever a choice between Snape and James, either. Lily simply never saw Snape in a romantic light as she did with James. Hermione never made a choice between Harry and Ron either because she only had romantic feelings for Ron and not Harry. It’s the same way.

And the only person to blame for the breakup between Snape and Lily is Snape because it was his choices that drove her away, not her feelings for James. She made it clear that she thought what Snape was doing was wrong . When James was brought up, she even said “What’s Potter got to do with anything?”

IMO which I will admit is just that, my opinion, you cannot put the blame for Snape's actions onto anyone else. Lily is in no way to blame for his choices and actions, but then neither is Voldemort, Avery, Mulcibar, Dumbledore, or even Harry. Other people can present choice to you, but your choice is just that, your choice. A rather long sentence there. Snape was a very brave man who was almost fatally flawed. I don't think even if he had won Lily's love, he would have been happy. He just seems to enjoy being miserable. My mother had a saying, "He's his own worst enemy." Seems to fit Snape like a glove.

:agree: I agree completely. I don’t think that blame for Snape’s actions should go to anyone else. Snape was responsible for his choices and only he should be blamed for what happened to him (other than circumstances that he couldn’t help, such as having his parents). JKR has stressed in the series about the vitality of choices, and I think it would undermine that theme to blame others for what Snape did.

Snape IMO listened to Lily everytime. He listened to her and walked away from a friendship he desperately wanted and he did not speak a word when she simply dismissed him. I feel that was not very fair on Lily's part. Again, I am not saying she had no right to break a friendship she did not care for, but what I'm saying is she took a decision going against Snape's interest (he wanted the frienship and I think Lily knew it too) without asking Snape what he wanted to do. Be friends with her or cultivate them (the DEs).

He didn’t listen to Lily when she tried to tell him that he was befriending people that were “evil.”

He did choose her after he lost her forever to James. I think he would have chosen her that night of the SWM too.

But I would never know, because Lily never gave him that choice IMO.

He could have easily made that choice even if Lily didn’t say anything about that. He could have easily turned his back against the Dark Arts, Voldemort, Mulciber and Avery, pureblood supremacy. He never did that, and he was fully capable of doing that. Those choices weren’t solely dependent on Lily telling him that he had to make a choice.

This and I personally don't really count extra-textual references as canon, so I'd be happy to hear a text-based argument for Lily not being ever able to love Snape (if that's your point). I'm undecided on that matter, personally.

I don’t think many of us are arguing that Lily was never able to ove Snape in a romantic sense, but that it was unlikely she would have. It would have required a completely different Snape for her to love him.

I won't let you - that's a phrase I use everyday! And it just means expression of a standpoint, in my opinion. I think Severus was perfectly aware he was incapable of forbidding Lily anything; but that was a very emotional part for him, because he knew the whole story while Lily didn't, and I think he was bursting with desire to tell her there's a different side of James's self-sacrificial behaviour (as Severus saw the matter) but couldn't. We can see that - he's stuttering. I don't think that's bullying at all, it's just enormous frustration for lack of workds strong enough to express his suffering under this, as he appartently saw it, great injustice.

It depends on the manner in which someone says he/she won’t let someone do something. Lily took it as Snape’s way of trying to forbid her. I was watching a tv show a while ago and a guy actually said the same thing and the girl reacted in the same way. (In case anyone’s wondering, I was watching Friends.) I think a lot of people wouldn’t like being ordered what to do by their friends, and that’s why Lily felt that way, IMO.

However Lily might not have been ready at that age to be romantically involved with anyone and if Severus had not been involved with potential DE's and the Dark Arts he just MIGHT have stood a chance..... and then James the arrogant toe rag would have been dispensable....?

JKR only said that Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape if he wasn’t attracted to loathsome acts and people, but that doesn’t mean that she wouldn’t have fallen in love with James. JKR only said that it was a possibility, not that she would have definitely chosen Snape.

If I had had access to magic during school I would have been sourly tempted by what ever magic dark or not that I thought would help me. Yes James and them never resorted to dark magic but they didn't have to, Severus did just to even the score of two against one! :no:

That doesn’t explain why Snape still found it amusing to have Dark Magic used against Mary Macdonald.

I really don't think Lily was a very good friend to Snape, even if she didn't feel as strongly about him, she should have never ended a friendship over one word when she was the one that hurt him first.

In my opinion, that wasn’t the reason why Lily ended the friendship. The Mudblood comment was just a trigger for her to end the friendship, it was the last straw. She ended the friendship because Snape supported pureblood supremacy, Dark Arts, and Voldemort. The Mudblood comment just made Lily realize that she could no longer to pretend that Snape was not the person he was.

I say she should have been more understanding and tried harder to get him away from the junior death eaters!

She did try to tell him, but he ignored her. I don’t think it’s her fault that he didn’t listen to her.

I'm sorry but I just don't like James anymore after finding out what he did. Because being young and stupid is just not an excuse for bad behavior and treating fellow human beings like dirt!

I don’t think that what James did was right either, but he at least grew up and changed. That’s why Lily dated him. She told him off and he at least became the person that she was more comfortable with because he was a more mature person than he was at fifteen. It was not the case with Snape because even though she told him that what he was doing was wrong he didn’t listen. Snape and James made opposite choices, and Lily married the one that made the right one.

* * *
Everything in this post is in my opinion, and I hope I haven’t offended anyone. :scared:

But we do see Lily get along with James. We see the photograph showing Lily and James arm in arm, laughing along with Sirius. We get the chance to read a letter from Lily depicting a loving family and her concern for James. We know their Patronuses matched because they were each other’s “happy thoughts.” There is so much that points that they were in love and happy, and that makes their story much more believable to me than Snape and Lily’s friendship.
:agree: We are shown Lily and James happy together, and the same can't be said for Snape and Lily imo, which is one reason i find it so difficult to believe they were "best friends" for so long. I also think it was just a label, rather than the true definition of the word.

I don’t see any proof that James is the most likely candidate for telling Lily. Lily said that she heard about what happened, not that James told her. On the contrary, I don’t think James would risk letting others know because it would raise questions about what was at the end of the tunnel. He was loyal to Remus and I don’t think he’d jeopardize that by trying to make himself look like a hero to Lily.
I agree. I think James was too loyal to ever betray a friend (Peter would have been more likely to let it slip, based on canon, but I don't think that was very probable either). Lily probably heard the story from somewhere else (like the portraits or ghosts).

Friendship isn’t automatically a good one just because they were friends for a long time. Peter was friends with the other Marauders for a long time yet he betrayed them anyway, implying that their friendship wasn’t as strong as the others thought.
Exactly. :agree: Snape and Lily as they were shown in canon, never seemed as close as James and Sirius imo, and we were only given one scene (I think) portraying the James and Sirius friendship.

That is true, but people are capable of getting past the grief. If Snape made the conscious choice to move on, he could have. It would undermine his ability – and all others’ – to assume that he couldn’t have done so, IMO.
:agree: I think Snape's main problem was that he wouldn't let go of the past, not that he couldn't. He chose to wallow in the past imo. I always saw it as just another flaw in his character, another that was based on his choices. Just my opinion of course :)

But Lily already tried to tell Snape that what he was doing was wrong, but he chose to ignore her warning and only listened to the part when she insulted James. It’s not as if she hadn’t done it before for DH shows us that she did try to tell Snape but he wouldn’t listen.
:agree: I don't see how Lily could have helped Snape if he didn't listen to her. It does get very irritating when a friend doesn't even try to listen to your concerns imo and skirts around them instead (Snape interrupting Lily to tell her that marauders aren't that great either). Lily had to put up with a lot imo, being ignored for one when she had very valid concerns and clearly wanted to help Snape go down the right path imo.

Lily was hurt and outraged by Snape’s behavior, IMO, and I think that explains her behavior. It would make sense for Lily to behave so strongly to that opposed to another friend because she thought Snape was her best friend. Also, I don’t know if Lily is the calm type; she strikes me as pretty hotheaded. It would have been out of character for her to break a friendship calmly.
I think it would be out of character as well :agree: I wouldn't really expect her to react any other way. I can't see her breaking it off calmly either.

:tu: Wonderfully put, CBW! I don’t think that it was ever a choice between Snape and James, either. Lily simply never saw Snape in a romantic light as she did with James. Hermione never made a choice between Harry and Ron either because she only had romantic feelings for Ron and not Harry. It’s the same way.

And the only person to blame for the breakup between Snape and Lily is Snape because it was his choices that drove her away, not her feelings for James. She made it clear that she thought what Snape was doing was wrong . When James was brought up, she even said “What’s Potter got to do with anything?”

:agree: I agree completely. I don’t think that blame for Snape’s actions should go to anyone else. Snape was responsible for his choices and only he should be blamed for what happened to him (other than circumstances that he couldn’t help, such as having his parents). JKR has stressed in the series about the vitality of choices, and I think it would undermine that theme to blame others for what Snape did.
:tu:

She did try to tell him, but he ignored her. I don’t think it’s her fault that he didn’t listen to her.
:agree: If Snape didn't listen to her, what more could she have done? Listening was vital for Snape if he ever wanted to understand Lily imo.

I don’t think that what James did was right either, but he at least grew up and changed. That’s why Lily dated him. She told him off and he at least became the person that she was more comfortable with because he was a more mature person than he was at fifteen. It was not the case with Snape because even though she told him that what he was doing was wrong he didn’t listen. Snape and James made opposite choices, and Lily married the one that made the right one.
:agree:

I guess I don't see it the way that most people on here seem to. To me it was Lily that ended the relationship, and I believe it could have developed into one. As someone who was picked on all through school just because my family couldn't afford to buy new cloths, I can completely understand Snape hatred of James. I don't think anyone who has never been bullied can understand what its like. If I had had access to magic during school I would have been sourly tempted by what ever magic dark or not that I thought would help me. Yes James and them never resorted to dark magic but they didn't have to, Severus did just to even the score of two against one! :no:

I'm sorry but I just don't like James anymore after finding out what he did. Because being young and stupid is just not an excuse for bad behavior and treating fellow human beings like dirt!

I respect your opinion, but my interpretation of canon is quite distinct. Snape never once, in all of canon accused the Marauders (or James) of bullying him. Imo, that is because Snape bullied them right back - evidenced by his issuing a dark curse at James when James wasn't looking in SWM. That was an attack and while Sirius and James started things that time, I would opine that was not always the case as it is canon (admitted by Snape) that he followed them around all over the place to find out what they were up to and get them in trouble. In my view, that is treating the four of them "like dirt" as you put it, on Snape's part.

I don't believe that Snape was bullied any more than he bullied James himself, so I would respectfully disagree that he had any right to feel hateful toward James on account of that. I believe that DH memory number five makes it clear that the animosity between them was mutual, and that together with further canon (Sirius indicating Snape hexed James during 7th year) shows that Snape not only held his own, but was the aggressor at times. :)

On the other hand, I do believe that both boys could have been kinder to one another. James, because Snape was an outcast (as was his whole group of friends) and likely usually got the advantage; and Snape because even though it is not outlined in canon, there is no one on earth (wizard or otherwise) who doesn't have to suffer with their own group of problems and emotionally troubling issues while growing up; and Snape had the advantage of no compunction when it came to using dark magic curses in school yard hex battles with James.

When did Snape admit that he followed them around trying to get them in trouble? I remember one of them saying ”It served him right,” he sneered. “Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled. . . . Was anything ever stated that that is what he was actually doing and not just what they thought he was doing? and even if he was trying to get them expelled I don't blame Snape for trying to get rid of the ones picking on him. I feel that there is evidence that was the case. The first time on the train as first years they start in on Snape simply because he wanted to be in Slytherin. Wasn't there also a statement somewhere that James and them hexed random students in the halls? If Snape did attack first it could very well be trying to get them before thy got him. If it did eventually turn into mutual bullying well they started it. As for Lily trying to talk to Snape from "being friends with" the future death eaters, What did she expect him to do? Just stop talking to them? He lived in the same house as them for pete's sake. He was in a very vulnerable position if he said he didn't want to be friends with them because a muggleborn asked him not to he'd have to sleep with both eyes open and a wand in his hand for the rest of his schooling. He had to keep doing what he was doing for survivals sake and keep up appearances. Th same reason I think he treated Harry so bad and yet tried to save his life. Harry had potions class with the main Death eaters sun, Snaope knew that voldemort would return. Do you think Snape would have been able to talk his way back in to being Dumbledore's spy if Draco had told his father how well Snape treated Harry? No he had to keep up appearances, Just like when he was at school and living with those people.

Anyway I'm sorry I said anything so lets just agree to disagree, I'm tired of being sorry for trying to voice my opinion and discus opposing views on here just to be immediately stomped down because my views differ from the average fans. I don't know why I keep posting. :no:

I'm going to move part of your post, MoonStarRaven to the Snape thread since this is a thread for Snape and Lily. ;)

As for Lily trying to talk to Snape from "being friends with" the future death eaters, What did she expect him to do? Just stop talking to them? He lived in the same house as them for pete's sake. He was in a very vulnerable position if he said he didn't want to be friends with them because a muggleborn asked him not to he'd have to sleep with both eyes open and a wand in his hand for the rest of his schooling. He had to keep doing what he was doing for survivals sake and keep up appearances

I don't think that's a good excuse for befriending people that wanted to join Voldemort and used Dark Magic against people out of amusement. Lily, a concerned friend, had every right to appeal to Snape about the company he was hanging out with. It would show courage for Snape to turn his back against the Slytherins and continue to be friends with a Muggleborn. IMO, conformity for the sake of self-interest isn't a good excuse for continuing to remain friends with people that were doing things that were considered evil by society.

Anyway I'm sorry I said anything so lets just agree to disagree, I'm tired of being sorry for trying to voice my opinion and discus opposing views on here just to be immediately stomped down because my views differ from the average fans. I don't know why I keep posting. :no:

Don't feel bad for having an opinion. It's always interesting to discuss the HP series with other fans. :D

I guess I don't see it the way that most people on here seem to. To me it was Lily that ended the relationship, and I believe it could have developed into one. As someone who was picked on all through school just because my family couldn't afford to buy new cloths, I can completely understand Snape hatred of James. I don't think anyone who has never been bullied can understand what its like. If I had had access to magic during school I would have been sourly tempted by what ever magic dark or not that I thought would help me. Yes James and them never resorted to dark magic but they didn't have to, Severus did just to even the score of two against one! :no:

I don't understand what you are trying to say. It is okay that Snape resorted to dark magic? Neither James or Snape was justified for their dislike of one another. They are both equally culpable.

I really don't think Lily was a very good friend to Snape, even if she didn't feel as strongly about him, she should have never ended a friendship over one word when she was the one that hurt him first. There he was being picked on and embarrassed in front of everyone by the person he hated the most and the person he cared about most in the whole world almost laughed! I can not imagine how badly that would have hurt. :no: Of course he would have lashed out at her wanting to hurt her as badly as she had just hurt him.
Lily didn't end the friendship just because he called her a "mudblood", she ended it due a multitude of other problems with him. Anyways, Lily has every right to end the friendship with a guy who would resort to using a racial slur after getting pantsed to make himself feel better.

I say she should have been more understanding and tried harder to get him away from the junior death eaters! Story Plot line aside I think that they could have had a great relationship. In fact I'm reading an excellent fanfiction in which she does forgive him, and is able to bring him around. (In case anyone is interested it's called "The Road Not Taken" on Fanfiction net) And before anyone jumps done my throat YES I know it's not canon, but I thought it was very well written and believably shows what might have been if Lily had gotten her head out of her... Uh stopped and thought about what had happened and been willing to give Snape a second chance.

Why should have Lily "been more understanding and tried harder to get him away from the junior death eaters?" Snape is not Lily's responsibilty. Lily shouldn't have to be the one who has to tell him "Death Eaters are not good. Don't become a Death Eater." Perhaps Lily gave Snape too much credit and thought he could figure that out for himself. I don't see why Lily should have given Snape a second chance. I don't think it would have helped her in any way.

When did Snape admit that he followed them around trying to get them in trouble? I remember one of them saying ”It served him right,” he sneered. “Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled. . . . Was anything ever stated that that is what he was actually doing and not just what they thought he was doing?

Lily asked Snape why he was so obsessed with them and he did not deny it. And he admitted that he'd followed Lupin about during every full moon for sometime to try and figure out what he was up to. (DH The Prince's Tale)

and even if he was trying to get them expelled I don't blame Snape for trying to get rid of the ones picking on him. I feel that there is evidence that was the case. The first time on the train as first years they start in on Snape simply because he wanted to be in Slytherin. Wasn't there also a statement somewhere that James and them hexed random students in the halls? If Snape did attack first it could very well be trying to get them before thy got him. If it did eventually turn into mutual bullying well they started it.

And he finished it. :lol:. That is the thing with fighting, it doesn't really matter who starts it, imo. The problem is that all parties involved are willing to engage in it. Normally if someone hits you, the instinct is to hit back instead of doing the right thing and reporting them to a professor. The latter makes you a "fink" though and usually people wish to avoid it. :)

As for Lily trying to talk to Snape from "being friends with" the future death eaters, What did she expect him to do? Just stop talking to them? He lived in the same house as them for pete's sake. He was in a very vulnerable position if he said he didn't want to be friends with them because a muggleborn asked him not to he'd have to sleep with both eyes open and a wand in his hand for the rest of his schooling. He had to keep doing what he was doing for survivals sake and keep up appearances.

Well if pranking people with dark magic, inventing dark curses and running about calling people mudblood, plus showing interest in Voldemort is what it takes to "keep up appearances" then Snape would have been in a quandary. However, I do not believe that was the case. Certainly his friends didn't demand he make secret curses "for enemies" that he would keep to himself, imo. Nor did they demand at wandpoint that he call people mudblood that we know of per the canon. Imo, it is not a fair assessment that everyone else is responsible for their choices (all of Snape's friends and his enemies) but not Snape. Snape's friends were not death eaters yet, they were just his friends and as such he could drop them slowly if need be, but drop them nonetheless, imo. In addition, JKR said there were Slytherins that were not into dark activities and Snape could have been friends with them. Those type of friends would understand and be on his side against anyone who tried to intimidate him for not wishing to continue down a dark path, imo.

The same reason I think he treated Harry so bad and yet tried to save his life. Harry had potions class with the main Death eaters sun, Snaope knew that voldemort would return. Do you think Snape would have been able to talk his way back in to being Dumbledore's spy if Draco had told his father how well Snape treated Harry? No he had to keep up appearances, Just like when he was at school and living with those people.

I am not certain I understand. Do you mean to say that everything we saw of Snape as a young boy and as an adult was an act? Imo, Snape would not join the Death Eaters and hasten to turn over a prophecy that would see a baby killed to Voldemort just to keep up appearances. Imo, it was not all an act, I believe that the person written on page was 100% true Snape. If it had been an act, I think JKR would have revealed that to us in Deathly Hallows because it would be something very important for us to know about Snape. I truly doubt she would imagine that everyone would guess.

In addition, it would leave many things unexplained. In GoF for instance, when Snape whispered in Harry's ear (so only he could hear) that to him, Harry was nothing more than a nasty little boy. In that case, Snape wasn't putting on a show for anyone. So these types of things and many others prove that Snape was not acting - he was just being himself, imo.

I really don't think Lily was a very good friend to Snape, even if she didn't feel as strongly about him, she should have never ended a friendship over one word when she was the one that hurt him first. There he was being picked on and embarrassed in front of everyone by the person he hated the most and the person he cared about most in the whole world almost laughed! I can not imagine how badly that would have hurt. Of course he would have lashed out at her wanting to hurt her as badly as she had just hurt him.

According to the text, it does not appear that Snape would have seen Lily's mouth twitch when she almost laughed. At that moment he was hanging upside down with his robes over his head. Thus, imo, Snape's lashing out at Lily had nothing to do with her lip twitch, but rather with his overall jealousy stemming from what he correctly sensed as a mutual attraction between Lily and James - I figure the undercurrent of their conversation was pulsing with it.

Anyway I'm sorry I said anything so lets just agree to disagree, I'm tired of being sorry for trying to voice my opinion and discus opposing views on here just to be immediately stomped down because my views differ from the average fans. I don't know why I keep posting. :no:

I am sorry you feel that way. But if someone feels differently, they will express their view as well. I certainly didn't intend to stomp on your opinion, in fact, in my post I indicated that I respected your view, first thing - and I do. It is just different than mine. Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree if you like. :)

Snape never once, in all of canon accused the Marauders (or James) of bullying him. But that doesn't mean that Snape wasn't bullied by the marauders. To me canon is quite clear that the marauders bullied Snape - Lupin and Black admit as much themselves. It is also extremely unlikely that anyone - and Snape especially - is going to admit to being bullied by the father of a pupil. What Snape says "Your father attacked me four on one" and so forth is indicative of what happened. Snape wasn't going to turn around and say "Your father bullied me" - he had far to much pride for that, and would have expected Harry to think it was funny and cool that his father had bullied his horrid teacher. Not the result Snape was looking for.

That is the thing with fighting, it doesn't really matter who starts it, imo.
Unless you are continually on the receiving end as it appeared Snape was.

Anyway I'm sorry I said anything so lets just agree to disagree, I'm tired of being sorry for trying to voice my opinion and discus opposing views on here just to be immediately stomped down because my views differ from the average fans. I don't know why I keep posting.
:huggles: You're not alone :) There are a lot of people who have a lot of sympathy with Snape on these forums. I agree with a lot of what you said especially this

I'm sorry but I just don't like James anymore after finding out what he did. Because being young and stupid is just not an excuse for bad behavior and treating fellow human beings like dirt!And especially when one character is excused for being young and stupid and another isn't.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

In my opinion, Lily would be friend with anyone that wanted to be her friend. She'd probably been nicer to him than Petunia was, but I guess she wouldn't want to dissappoint her sister.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

The mudblood insult. But I guess the Dark Arts-thingey tore them apart a bit too. But when he said Mudblood it was the end.

I had an interesting though in the bathroom this morning -

When Harry uses the sectumsempra on Draco he likens his feelings about the Prince to a pet that had turned savage.
When James is holding Snape upside-down and Lily comes to his aid Snape does turn savage and calls her a mudblood.

I just thought it was na interesting parallel.

When did Snape admit that he followed them around trying to get them in trouble? I remember one of them saying ”It served him right,” he sneered. “Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled. . . . Was anything ever stated that that is what he was actually doing and not just what they thought he was doing? and even if he was trying to get them expelled I don't blame Snape for trying to get rid of the ones picking on him. I feel that there is evidence that was the case. The first time on the train as first years they start in on Snape simply because he wanted to be in Slytherin. Wasn't there also a statement somewhere that James and them hexed random students in the halls? If Snape did attack first it could very well be trying to get them before thy got him. If it did eventually turn into mutual bullying well they started it. As for Lily trying to talk to Snape from "being friends with" the future death eaters, What did she expect him to do? Just stop talking to them? He lived in the same house as them for pete's sake. He was in a very vulnerable position if he said he didn't want to be friends with them because a muggleborn asked him not to he'd have to sleep with both eyes open and a wand in his hand for the rest of his schooling. He had to keep doing what he was doing for survivals sake and keep up appearances. Th same reason I think he treated Harry so bad and yet tried to save his life. Harry had potions class with the main Death eaters sun, Snaope knew that voldemort would return. Do you think Snape would have been able to talk his way back in to being Dumbledore's spy if Draco had told his father how well Snape treated Harry? No he had to keep up appearances, Just like when he was at school and living with those people.

Anyway I'm sorry I said anything so lets just agree to disagree, I'm tired of being sorry for trying to voice my opinion and discus opposing views on here just to be immediately stomped down because my views differ from the average fans. I don't know why I keep posting. :no:

I think this is a lovely post MoonStarRaven, and there are a lot of people who feel like you do, and there are others who differ. And that's the fun! :)

You make such valid points about Snape and the Marauders IMO!

I really don't think Lily attempted to understand why Snape was attracted to the DEs. She had so much love and such a good life, and was a good enough person to make friends with a boy, because she liked him, ignoring his background; but once she fell for James (and I think this was after the werewolf incident) I feel and this is only my opinion, that she had blinders in her eyes when it came to Snape. She stopped seeing him as a friend and started seeing him as James and Sirius claimed he was IMO.

She wanted him to do away with the Slytherins he was hanging about with; she wanted him to stop his attraction to the dark arts; but I don't think she realised that Snape had such a lack of everything in his life, that he could not let go. He wanted that and he wanted her friendship and love too. Snape did not for his part realize that she was changing, he suspected her to have some feelings for James, he was jealous about it; but I think he thought he could show her that the path he had chosen was quite okay IMO.

Had she given him a choice, I still think Snape would have chosen her friendship, but she did not, and when she told him to go away, he all the more, could not stop hanging out with the Slytherins IMO.

He had already lost her; he could not afford to lose them too IMO.

I think if Snape can't maintain a relationship with Lily because of James, that is just immature. He should learn to tolerate James for Lily's sake (and of course, James should learn to tolerate Snape as well :)).

I agree but, unrequited love can do strange things and it would be very hard for me if I were in that situation.



I really don't think Lily attempted to understand why Snape was attracted to the DEs. She had so much love and such a good life, and was a good enough person to make friends with a boy, because she liked him, ignoring his background; but once she fell for James (and I think this was after the werewolf incident) I feel and this is only my opinion, that she had blinders in her eyes when it came to Snape. She stopped seeing him as a friend and started seeing him as James and Sirius claimed he was IMO.

I agree, I think Lily's opinion changed and she saw all the bad and forgot about the good she once saw.



Had she given him a choice, I still think Snape would have chosen her friendship, but she did not, and when she told him to go away, he all the more, could not stop hanging out with the Slytherins IMO.

He had already lost her; he could not afford to lose them too IMO.

I think that Snape would have done anything for Lily and if she had welcomed him back he would have changed... but I don't think at that point that she even wanted to give him a chance. She was tired and fed up...

Welcome back Anabel!
Thanks! And may I just say that your sig and avatar make me :drool: :love:I really don't think Lily was a very good friend to Snape, even if she didn't feel as strongly about him, she should have never ended a friendship over one word when she was the one that hurt him first.
If it was just one word, I'd agree with you. However, it was way more than one word. We saw Lily begging Snape to break off his friendship with the other Death Eaters, trying to persuade him that using the Dark Arts on other students is evil. We heard that Snape, even if Lily was the exception, really did call other Muggle-borns "Mudblood". We also saw enough of Lily to know that she was compassionate and kind, not hard and vindictive at all. The SWM scene was the last straw for her.

But that doesn't mean that Snape wasn't bullied by the marauders. To me canon is quite clear that the marauders bullied Snape - Lupin and Black admit as much themselves. It is also extremely unlikely that anyone - and Snape especially - is going to admit to being bullied by the father of a pupil. What Snape says "Your father attacked me four on one" and so forth is indicative of what happened. Snape wasn't going to turn around and say "Your father bullied me" - he had far to much pride for that, and would have expected Harry to think it was funny and cool that his father had bullied his horrid teacher. Not the result Snape was looking for.

I didn't say he wasn't. I said the bullying was mutual. :) When Snape was speaking about the 4 on 1, he was using that to show James was a coward in his opinion - not a bully. When I said Snape never said that he was bullied, I didn't mean he wasn't, I just meant that he didn't call them on it because he bullied them as well - and when it is mutual, you can hardly call the other people on it. :lol:.

And especially when one character is excused for being young and stupid and another isn't.

Imo, Lily didn't excuse James or Snape. She dumped them both and only became romantically involved with James when he shrunk his head. But she couldn't excuse Snape ever because he never changed, imo.

I didn't say he wasn't. I said the bullying was mutual. When Snape was speaking about the 4 on 1, he was using that to show James was a coward in his opinion - not a bully. When I said Snape never said that he was bullied, I didn't mean he wasn't, I just meant that he didn't call them on it because he bullied them as well - and when it is mutual, you can hardly call the other people on it.There is absolutely no canon - none at all - to indicate that Snape bullied the marauders. There isn't canon to suggest that he bullied anyone. Snape fights back against the marauders as much as he can, but that does not make it "mutual bullying" in fact I would say there is no such thing. Bullying is when one person or group of people pick on someone (or another group) repeatedly. By its very nature bullying cannot be mutual. My dictionary defines a bully as "someone who hurts persecutes or intimidates weaker people" - which really sums up the way James treated Snape. There are no scenes which even suggest that Snape behaved this way to James or any of the other pupils while he was a student.

There is absolutely no canon - none at all - to indicate that Snape bullied the marauders.

"In seventh year [...] Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James" (and James doesn't run away, he retaliates). So indeed there is canon.

There is little canon indicating James and gang bullied Snape - SWM as a visual example. In that, Snape bullied back and did not run away when they started things, but instead, went for his wand to retaliate.

That is it that I recall. So everything else is a fine product of our imagination and creativity, imo. :lol:. We were given both sides and we can look upon it as we wish. I believe it was mutual more or less, but I respect your view if you interpret things distinctly.

There isn't canon to suggest that he bullied anyone. Snape fights back against the marauders as much as he can, but that does not make it "mutual bullying" in fact I would say there is no such thing. Bullying is when one person or group of people pick on someone (or another group) repeatedly. By its very nature bullying cannot be mutual. My dictionary defines a bully as "someone who hurts persecutes or intimidates weaker people" - which really sums up the way James treated Snape. There are no scenes which even suggest that Snape behaved this way to James or any of the other pupils while he was a student.

Actually mutual bullying is very possible. Perhaps the correct term is not bullying in that case and perhaps that it why it is never used by Snape or the Marauders - I would call it mutual bullying though - and I would even agree that the Marauders were provoked into starting things more often than not due to the fact that Snape was following them around trying to get them in trouble. But as I said in another thread, who starts it doesn't matter because the other person finishes it and as such, everyone becomes equally culpable for participating, imo. The correct thing to do if someone starts messing with you is to leave and alert a professor - but that is not what we see here - we see two way fighting, whoever starts it (Snape in the first example and Sirius and James in the second) does not leave and alert a professor, but rather retaliates. ;)

"In seventh year [...] Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James" (and James doesn't run away, he retaliates). So indeed there is canon.
That is not bullying - that is kids fighting. There is a huge difference between kids fighting - and kids bullying.

There is little canon indicating James and gang bullied Snape - SWM as a visual example. In that, Snape bullied back and did not run away when they started things, but instead, went for his wand to retaliate. Snape did not bully back in SWM - he fought back to defend himself. Having five boys myself I know the difference between a child being bullied and children fighting.
Snape was being bullied - it was two hexers to 1 - plus there was Lupin turning a blind eye and Peter watching salivating, and a crowd of on lookers - again something that is common with bullying.
While running away from bullies is a good short term fix it does not work in the long term - you have to stand up to bullies which is what Snape tries to do.
The marauders weren't fighting Snape (as we see Harry and Draco do) they were holding him up (literally) for public humiliation. That is called bullying.
Bullying and fighting are not interchangeable terms.

Actually mutual bullying is very possible. Only if Snape had come back and got James on his own with a gang of Slytherins then that would have been bullying. But that never happens - it is not even himted at. In fact they don't even say Sanpe and his friends. It is always just Snape. Snape on his own against a gang. I call that bullying.

I have seen this same discussion about who was worse - James or Snape - on three threads today. Could we please limit the topic on this one to Snape and Lily.

I think this is a lovely post MoonStarRaven, and there are a lot of people who feel like you do, and there are others who differ. And that's the fun! :)

You make such valid points about Snape and the Marauders IMO!

Thankyou. (I think I just had a bad day yesterday) Anyway

I really don't think Lily attempted to understand why Snape was attracted to the DEs. She had so much love and such a good life, and was a good enough person to make friends with a boy, because she liked him, ignoring his background; but once she fell for James (and I think this was after the werewolf incident) I feel and this is only my opinion, that she had blinders in her eyes when it came to Snape. She stopped seeing him as a friend and started seeing him as James and Sirius claimed he was IMO.

She wanted him to do away with the Slytherins he was hanging about with; she wanted him to stop his attraction to the dark arts; but I don't think she realised that Snape had such a lack of everything in his life, that he could not let go. He wanted that and he wanted her friendship and love too. Snape did not for his part realize that she was changing, he suspected her to have some feelings for James, he was jealous about it; but I think he thought he could show her that the path he had chosen was quite okay IMO.

Had she given him a choice, I still think Snape would have chosen her friendship, but she did not, and when she told him to go away, he all the more, could not stop hanging out with the Slytherins IMO.

He had already lost her; he could not afford to lose them too IMO.

Exactly, I think give a chose he would have chosen Lily. I think he was attracted to the dark arts for a variaty or reasons. One may have been from an ingrained feeling of powerlessness. (And nothing will make a child feel more powerless than listening and seeing their parents fighting) not to mention being picked on.

Another reason may very well have been that he knew, or guessed, that Voldemort was gaining power, he knew how they felt about mudbloods and that they could very well start attacking them. The woman he cared about was a mudblood. Maybe he was trying to get in with the death eaters in the misplaced hope that if he was, he would be in a better position to protect Lily. Good people can do bad things to protect the ones they love.

So I wasn't trying to say that he was some saint, but I don't think he was as bad as everyone keeps saying he was. He was what 16 at the time? You can't count out the sheer influence of peer pressure at that age. And like The_Green_Woods said he had already lost Lily he didn't want to loss them as well. And as we see in canon he used his position in the Death Eaters (assess to knowledge) to protect Lily even after she chose James over him.

So I wasn't trying to say that he was some saint, but I don't think he was as bad as everyone keeps saying he was. He was what 16 at the time?
I don't judge him entirely by how he acted at age 16 - I tend to judge people by more of what they become, and Snape imo was not a pleasant or nice person as an adult. IMO, he was just a bully as an adult. I think Lily might have been friendly with him again if she could see him grow up and change postively, like James, but even when Snape was on the good side, and an adult, he was still a pretty bad person IMO (bullying the children like he did was pretty bad imo). I agree he tried to protect Lily with everything he had, but IMO, to be a good person, he should have at least respected her (his treatment of Harry seemed disrespectful to her memory to me) imo. I think Lily would have seen it the same way.

Again, all in my opinion!

II think Lily might have been friendly with him again if she could see him grow up and change postively, like James, but even when Snape was on the good side, and an adult, he was still a pretty bad person IMO (bullying the children like he did was pretty bad imo). Again, all in my opinion!

I agree. I was thinking too that Lily likely began making a lot of new friends once she arrived at Hogwarts. She was a friendly person and seemed fairly open in the memories when she was young, so she probably attracted a lot of friends. Later, the males among her friends would likely start asking her out on dates and such and I would imagine that she would have had a fairly full social life. That too might have been another reason their friendship tapered off as Snape too was apparently making friends in his house.

I don't judge him entirely by how he acted at age 16 - I tend to judge people by more of what they become, and Snape imo was not a pleasant or nice person as an adult. IMO, he was just a bully as an adult. I think Lily might have been friendly with him again if she could see him grow up and change postively, like James, but even when Snape was on the good side, and an adult, he was still a pretty bad person IMO (bullying the children like he did was pretty bad imo). I agree he tried to protect Lily with everything he had, but IMO, to be a good person, he should have at least respected her (his treatment of Harry seemed disrespectful to her memory to me) imo. I think Lily would have seen it the same way.

Again, all in my opinion!


Your right, he wasn't a very pleasant adult, however I have to wonder how much of that was playing the part he had been cast into. How much was from the misery of inadvertently causing the death of the only woman he ever loved, as well as being a socially inept person that was never taught social niceties? Also what is that old saying? Miserable person must find more miserable person, then he's happy. But then if he wasn't such a dark brooding, snarky, person he wouldn't be quite so sexy... or so I've heard :whistle: lol

Besides why should he treat others nicely when no one ever treated him nicely? Except for maybe Lily and Dumbledore. And who where the people he most respected and cared about? hum I wonder if that was a coincedance?

I agree. I was thinking too that Lily likely began making a lot of new friends once she arrived at Hogwarts. She was a friendly person and seemed fairly open in the memories when she was young, so she probably attracted a lot of friends. Later, the males among her friends would likely start asking her out on dates and such and I would imagine that she would have had a fairly full social life. That too might have been another reason their friendship tapered off as Snape too was apparently making friends in his house.

I don't know how friendly she was with those in Gryffindor. She may have known a few of them, but to me it was obvious that until fifth year, no one could take Snape's place. Had they done so, she would have surely been friends with them and moved away from Snape; because it was convenient for one thing and beause two they would give what Snape did; friendship IMO.

They were all in the same House and would surely spend quality time together; but for Lily, Snape seemed more likeble and certainly a better friend, IMO and one she did not want to lose, because she kept her friendship, knowing Snape called others mudblood for years, and knowing he was attracted to the Dark Arts and was an oddball and so on....IMO.

So I wasn't trying to say that he was some saint, but I don't think he was as bad as everyone keeps saying he was. He was what 16 at the time? You can't count out the sheer influence of peer pressure at that age. And like The_Green_Woods said he had already lost Lily he didn't want to loss them as well. And as we see in canon he used his position in the Death Eaters (assess to knowledge) to protect Lily even after she chose James over him.

I like what you say about peer pressure here. I think that peer pressure had a lot of influence on young Snape, especially from his own house. I can just imagine those friends of his filling his head with nonsense about how he could be somebody and have power etc... all things that would have appealed to him at the time seeing as he was being bullied and had no real home life.

I don't know how friendly she was with those in Gryffindor. She may have known a few of them, but to me it was obvious that until fifth year, no one could take Snape's place. Had they done so, she would have surely been friends with them and moved away from Snape; because it was convenient for one thing and beause two they would give what Snape did; friendship IMO.

They were all in the same House and would surely spend quality time together; but for Lily, Snape seemed more likeble and certainly a better friend, IMO and one she did not want to lose, because she kept her friendship, knowing Snape called others mudblood for years, and knowing he was attracted to the Dark Arts and was an oddball and so on....IMO.

I agree, I think that she and Snape were close when they came to school and only moved apart gradually to finally culminate in the mudblood incident.

I don't know how friendly she was with those in Gryffindor. She may have known a few of them, but to me it was obvious that until fifth year, no one could take Snape's place. Had they done so, she would have surely been friends with them and moved away from Snape; because it was convenient for one thing and beause two they would give what Snape did; friendship IMO.
There is simply no proof for that. We see in SWM she'd rather hang out with her other friends than Snape, and was apparently laughing with them (group of laughing girls I seem to recall - but I could be wrong on that), something she is never seen doing with Snape. I think she stayed with Snape because she wanted to be a good friend, and tried to help him. It wasn't obvious to me that Lily thought no one could take Snape's place; my recollection of canon is she always got frustrated with him and argued with him in every scene we're shown of the two together. I don't think anything can be "obvious" when it's mostly assumption. I also don't think Lily would have dropped Snape simply because staying friends with him wasn't convenient enough for her. She tried her best to take him on the right path, and tried her best to be a good friend to him imo, but in the end she just couldn't take his fascination with the dark arts, prejudice against her kind, and ambition to become a death eater. I think Lily was definitely close to her Gryffindor friends; they certainly cared enough about her to try to warn her away from a bad influence.

They were all in the same House and would surely spend quality time together; but for Lily, Snape seemed more likeble and certainly a better friend, IMO and one she did not want to lose, because she kept her friendship, knowing Snape called others mudblood for years, and knowing he was attracted to the Dark Arts and was an oddball and so on....IMO.
What proof is there that Lily thought Snape was more "likeable" and a "better friend". In the canon scenes we are shown, I only see her getting agitated at his behavior. She got frustrated when he wouldn't listen to her. I think that a lot of the time she tried to help him go down the right path, maybe hope one day he would become a better friend and actually listen to her. JMO of course.

NOw I will weigh back into the discussions. It seems that a few posters are overlooking James faults - maybe because he was Harry's father and redeemed himelf quite a number of years before Severus did. AND Severus did redeem himself eventually. However it seems to me James that had a much more advantageous upbringing but was still am arrogant toe-rag and a bully who seemed to think he was above everyone else but Severus was poor and had a horrible bully for a father (perhaps James reminded Sev of his father? Unlikely but you never know). Lily had a different upbringing but sees a similarity in her upbringing to James' and eventually was drawn towards him when his behavior improved. However Severus was vulnerable and drawn into a dark cult as his mother possibly had leanings that way but I can't really see why so many are condemning Severus and not James who had no influences or circumstances related to the kind of life Severus had the misfortune to have had. IMO Severus had less control over the circumstances of his life etc than James had. Lily tried to see this but due to her upbringing most likely had less chance of seeing it than say someone who was brought up like Severus was and mostly having a life centred mostly around he fellow Gryffindors had less chance of sympathising with anyone from Slytherin - including Severus- for obvious reasons.

Sorry for the rambling but when I see circular discussions and some getting disallusioned because they think their points aren't being acknowledged then I feel I must come to their defence.

Others will disagree of course but don't worry MoonStarRaven you do have several supporters as you can see from several above posts - so don't give up as I may not have the time to support you in the next few weeks due to other commitments.

There is simply no proof for that. We see in SWM she'd rather hang out with her other friends than Snape, and was apparently laughing with them (group of laughing girls I seem to recall - but I could be wrong on that), something she is never seen doing with Snape. I think she stayed with Snape because she wanted to be a good friend, and tried to help him. It wasn't obvious to me that Lily thought no one could take Snape's place; my recollection of canon is she always got frustrated with him and argued with him in every scene we're shown of the two together. I don't think anything can be "obvious" when it's mostly assumption. I also don't think Lily would have dropped Snape simply because staying friends with him wasn't convenient enough for her. She tried her best to take him on the right path, and tried her best to be a good friend to him imo, but in the end she just couldn't take his fascination with the dark arts, prejudice against her kind, and ambition to become a death eater. I think Lily was definitely close to her Gryffindor friends; they certainly cared enough about her to try to warn her away from a bad influence.

I would have to agree with this. Lily was popular which I do not think she would be if she rejected everyone in the school to be friends with Snape exclusively for years - especially because of his friends and dark activities. Imagine Snape walking around calling people 'mudblood' and issuing dark curses (even if just in hex battles) - and Lily is his tight friend and being unfriendly with others. She would have been as unpopular as he was, imo. So I believe she did make a lot of good close friends and that is why they tolerated her being friendly with Snape and just attempted to warn her away from him. JKR said she was popular like Ginny - so she was also dating, imo, which is further proven by the manner in which James asked her out in SWM. James had to have asked her before and she had to have already been dating others because otherwise he would never have asked her in such a public and daring manner, imo. So yeah, I would conclude she had a lot of friends and a fairly tight group of girlfriends as well.

NOw I will weigh back into the discussions. It seems that a few posters are overlooking James faults - maybe because he was Harry's father and redeemed himelf quite a number of years before Severus did. AND Severus did redeem himself eventually. However it seems to me James that had a much more advantageous upbringing but was still am arrogant toe-rag and a bully who seemed to think he was above everyone else but Severus was poor and had a horrible bully for a father (perhaps James reminded Sev of his father? Unlikely but you never know). Lily had a different upbringing but sees a similarity in her upbringing to James' and eventually was drawn towards him when his behavior improved. However Severus was vulnerable and drawn into a dark cult as his mother possibly had leanings that way but I can't really see why so many are condemning Severus and not James who had no influences or circumstances related to the kind of life Severus had the misfortune to have had. IMO Severus had less control over the circumstances of his life etc than James had. Lily tried to see this but due to her upbringing most likely had less chance of seeing it than say someone who was brought up like Severus was and mostly having a life centred mostly around he fellow Gryffindors had less chance of sympathising with anyone from Slytherin - including Severus- for obvious reasons.

:tu: I agree! I find the need to glorify James & vilify Snape intriguing; however I feel it has little to do with character analysis. This thread is supposed to be for the discussion of Snape & Lily’s relationship; to me that does not seem to include who Lily married, to any great extent.

Now I do not intend to argue that their relationship did not have problems – that would be silly. :) That said, they did have a long friendship and one which they both valued; at least for a long time. Seen as a proportion of their lives, ie 1/3 minimum when the relationship ended, it seems to qualify as a long time to me. :)

I would be far more interested in examining some of the commonalities they had, or to be frank, anything new as this topic seems to have been stuck in a loop for some time. So in an attempt to do exactly that –

Do people think the introduction of Horace Slughorn shed any light on the relationship between Lily & Severus? If so how & why, if not – the same question, how & why?

Do people think the introduction of Horace Slughorn shed any light on the relationship between Lily & Severus? If so how & why, if not – the same question, how & why?
Horace's reference to "Lily the potions genius" always brought Snape to mind because Snape taught potions and was obviously a very talented potioneer and he and Lily would have been in the same class. It's a reference that immediately throws them together.
It also gives them something in common: a subject that they both excelled at. I could see them studying together in the library. I also wonder if potions was an unpopular subject or considered "boring". Snape's first year speech starts with the reference to there being little wand waving so many won't consider it magic (paraphrased) - so I wonder if this is how Snape and Lily's contempories saw the subject, and they were "different" because they enjoyed the subject.

ETA: Something that has just occurred to me is that we see Snape at his "nicest" when talking to Lily. I think that this is because he wants to talk to her, whereas most people he doesn't want to talk to, and would rather be left alone. Just a thought.

So if I have to have an opinion that some are more seemingly biased than than others for no valid opinion then I can't express IMO stuff? Which is what I and others are doing????

Just because some of us can see another side Severus and the argument doesn't necessarily make us the WRONG side - does it???????

We do try and see what others are saying but do they see what we are saying?

Perhaps we should all agree to disagree?? And be done with it??????

So if I have to have an opinion that some are more seemingly biased than than others for no valid opinion then I can't express IMO stuff? Which is what I and others are doing????

Just because some of us can see another side Severus and the argument doesn't necessarily make us the WRONG side - does it???????

We do try and see what others are saying but do they see what we are saying?

Perhaps we should all agree to disagree?? And be done with it??????

No one here has said that. As long as you post things as in your opinion and not characterize other posters, you will be fine.

We are drifting off topic.

however I have to wonder how much of that was playing the part he had been cast into.

Well, we actually are told this by JKR herself - the all knowing God of the Potterverse. She said be was a saddistic teacher, meaning - he enjoyed bullying his younger students. Some say that JKR has no idea what she's talking about, but I think since she created him, gave him his whole personality, she probably is a better authority on that subject then others. :)

Besides why should he treat others nicely when no one ever treated him nicely?

That is a point that we see very often in relation to why Snape wasn't nice to alot of students. But then, it's a very immature attitude to have. This characteristic of Snape's would be IMO, due to the fact that he never got over losing the love of his life, especially to the man who terrorised him in school. These emotions are highly understandable. Still, IMO there is no excuse for his treatment of children put in his care.

Except for maybe Lily and Dumbledore. And who where the people he most respected and cared about? hum I wonder if that was a coincedance?

Lily he loved. Dumbledore was the only one that knew this secret that not even LV knew about it. So really, I don't think Snape every cared for anyone other than Lily. His actions, personality, fears, desires, thoughts, all stems and orbited around Lily. Okay, maybe his mother, but everyone else was more a means to a purpose.

I don't know how friendly she was with those in Gryffindor. She may have known a few of them, but to me it was obvious that until fifth year, no one could take Snape's place.

I agree, Snape was her first ever introduction to the wizarding world ... kind of like how Hagrid is to Harry. There is a very strong bond of friendship right there. However, Snape's attitude and other friends had been tolerated by Lily for sometime, but I think she knew that if he didn't change, she would no longer feel comfortable being his friend anymore and hence the split after him calling her mudblood inwhich she tells him exactly that.

like what you say about peer pressure here. I think that peer pressure had a lot of influence on young Snape, especially from his own house. I can just imagine those friends of his filling his head with nonsense about how he could be somebody and have power etc... all things that would have appealed to him at the time seeing as he was being bullied and had no real home life.

I kind of disagree here. Snape showed before he was even sorted that he .... er .... disliked muggles. I do think with good reason, but the prejudice was there before he even got to Hogwarts. I know it's weird, but the prejudice pre-Hogwarts seemed to be muggles only, rather than muggle borns, but I guess that term or phrase would have definately have come out of peer pressure. All I'm saying is that there was already an underlying prejudice before he got to Hogwarts, so it wasn't all down to peer pressure, he did support these views to a certain extent.

Horace's reference to "Lily the potions genius" always brought Snape to mind because Snape taught potions and was obviously a very talented potioneer and he and Lily would have been in the same class. It's a reference that immediately throws them together.

I was kind of wondering about this. Neither Lily nor Snape seem like the cheating type, but don't you think that it was odd that Slughorn mentioned Lily all the time, but never much of Snape's skills? I always found that weird, but anyway. Do you reckon they worked together to get the perfect results that are hand written in the HBP's potions book? If so, doesn't that show that Lily was still Snape's friend even after the mudblood incident?

:tu: I agree! I find the need to glorify James & vilify Snape intriguing; however I feel it has little to do with character analysis. This thread is supposed to be for the discussion of Snape & Lily’s relationship; to me that does not seem to include who Lily married, to any great extent.

Dear lord, I'm away from this forum for a few months, and James still keeps coming up in this thread some how. Ah...some things never change. :p

Do people think the introduction of Horace Slughorn shed any light on the relationship between Lily & Severus? If so how & why, if not – the same question, how & why?

I think Book 6 and all of it's references to Lily (credit to Slughorn) definitely gave more evidence that Sev at least knew of Lily and saw her on a regular basis. Snape's Worst Memory confirmed it, there was just no way these two DID NOT know each other. The past 5 books, Sev has always been assoicated with potions, and Book 6 introduced a whole knew factor of Lily and potions. I thought it made Slughorn's character a lot more adorable that he favored Lily so much, but even in the writing I thought the whole "Lily and potions" factor was being emphasized too greatly for it not to be a hint of something.

Maybe I'm just weird, but did anyone else get the feeling JKR was trying to drill into our heads "LILY AND POTIONS! LILY AND POTIONS!"? :huh:

I was kind of wondering about this. Neither Lily nor Snape seem like the cheating type, but don't you think that it was odd that Slughorn mentioned Lily all the time, but never much of Snape's skills? I always found that weird, but anyway. Do you reckon they worked together to get the perfect results that are hand written in the HBP's potions book?
I don't think it's evidence they were friends after 5th year, but I thought the exact same thing when reading book 6.

Well, we actually are told this by JKR herself - the all knowing God of the Potterverse. She said be was a saddistic teacher, meaning - he enjoyed bullying his younger students. Some say that JKR has no idea what she's talking about, but I think since she created him, gave him his whole personality, she probably is a better authority on that subject then others. :)

I disagree. I have already read her interviews. If I wanted to be reminded of their contents, I would reread them. I prefer to discuss her books, the things she worked on for 17 years, into which she put lots of thought, and which are multilayered and complicated in a way simple one ir two sentence statements made off the cuff, are not. :) Anyway, she may be all-knowing in terms of her own intentions (though even that is debatable concerning a creative process) but she is certainly not incapable of error. WHat she wrote may not be what she thought she wrote. ;)

If so, doesn't that show that Lily was still Snape's friend even after the mudblood incident?

I think the explanation would have to be that they were working above grade level, on their own time. However, I don't actually think they worked together on NEWT Potions. In HBP, SLughorn compares Harry's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death favorably to Snape's first attempt at the same, which is odd given Harry used Snape's instructions. It is my opinion, that this is because Harry used Snape's final, most improved instructions, which Snape finished after his first attempt that Slughorn saw, an attempt he would have made his sixth year.

So I think that Snape and Lily may have worked together before the break-up at the end of fifth year. Which makes sense to me anyway, because why would Snape show Harry an earlier break up, and not their final break-up?

I kind of disagree here. Snape showed before he was even sorted that he .... er .... disliked muggles. I do think with good reason, but the prejudice was there before he even got to Hogwarts. I know it's weird, but the prejudice pre-Hogwarts seemed to be muggles only, rather than muggle borns, but I guess that term or phrase would have definately have come out of peer pressure. All I'm saying is that there was already an underlying prejudice before he got to Hogwarts, so it wasn't all down to peer pressure, he did support these views to a certain extent.

I agree that he had the dislike present before the peer pressure came but I was more referring to the act of those so-called friends pushing him into being a DE with lies. I think that they helped to cultivate and direct what was already there.

I don't think it's evidence they were friends after 5th year, but I thought the exact same thing when reading book 6.

Me too. :) But I feel that post-DH, the preponderance of the evidence shows that they broke up for good at the end of fifth year.

I agree that he had the dislike present before the peer pressure came but I was more referring to the act of those so-called friends pushing him into being a DE with lies. I think that they helped to cultivate and direct what was already there.
What peer pressure? And I also don't recall their being any canon that stated that his Slytherin friends lied to him to push him into becoming a DE. I think that it was Snape's choice in the end. He had the ideas put in his head before he came to hogwarts, was always fascinated with the dark arts (before and after DE influence), and would not have turned to the good side had Lily not been targetted, which makes me think he was perfectly alright with what Voldemort was doing. Though this is just my interpretation.

If Lily couldn't persuade Snape to turn to the good side, I don't see how his Slytherin friends could be the key factor to turning him to the bad side. Snape seems like a pretty stubborn person. I think he chose his own way.

About the potions book - Snape must have had the book before the break up, even if it were more advanced, because sectumsempra was written in there. I think it's possible that Lily and the potions book are connected somehow.

What peer pressure? And I also don't recall their being any canon that stated that his Slytherin friends lied to him to push him into becoming a DE. I think that it was Snape's choice in the end. He had the ideas put in his head before he came to hogwarts, was always fascinated with the dark arts (before and after DE influence), and would not have turned to the good side had Lily not been targetted, which makes me think he was perfectly alright with what Voldemort was doing. Though this is just my interpretation.

If Lily couldn't persuade Snape to turn to the good side, I don't see how his Slytherin friends could be the key factor to turning him to the bad side. Snape seems like a pretty stubborn person. I think he chose his own way.

About the potions book - Snape must have had the book before the break up, even if it were more advanced, because sectumsempra was written in there. I think it's possible that Lily and the potions book are connected somehow.

It is speculation I suppose, sorry should have added the IMO. But I think that there had to be some influence from friends etc to get him into the DE's. He was around them all the time and things had to have rubbed off and he was the type who wanted to prove he was someone... I think it is a possibility part of it was peer pressure and following suit.

It is speculation I suppose, sorry should have added the IMO. But I think that there had to be some influence from friends etc to get him into the DE's. He was around them all the time and things had to have rubbed off and he was the type who wanted to prove he was someone... I think it is a possibility part of it was peer pressure and following suit.

It is still speculation, and a very good one I think considering what we only have from canon so far. We can argue that Sev made his own choices, that I won't disagree with. But how how else did he find out about Voldy and the Deatheaters anyway if it weren't for Deatheater children within Slytherin house(and we definitely have canon evidence for that)?

But how how else did he find out about Voldy and the Deatheaters anyway if it weren't for Deatheater children within Slytherin house(and we definitely have canon evidence for that)?
He could have heard about Voldemort and the DE's from the Slytherins (probably did in fact), but that doesn't mean they pressured him into joining. Has anyone considered the possibility that Snape himself influenced some friends when it came to the dark arts?

Lily didn't appear to have any influence on him when she tried to warn him about Mulciber and Avery, as well as their love of dark magic. And she was very important to him. Despite her trying, he just went further and further down the dark path until she found she'd had enough, and he wasn't going to change. Imo. I think if anyone could have an influence on Snape, it would be Lily.

He could have heard about Voldemort and the DE's from the Slytherins (probably did in fact), but that doesn't mean they pressured him into joining. Has anyone considered the possibility that Snape himself influenced some friends when it came to the dark arts?That's a really interesting idea. Snape seemed to be set from an early age that he wanted to be a Slytherin, and we can just assume that the desire to be a Death Eater came from the stories that surrounded that House. I would only have trouble believing that Snape was convincing others to become Death Eaters because of Lily's reaction. She was talking to him like he was being a follower, and convinced him to stay away from the wrong crowd. I don't think she would have thought that it was so easy had he been a leader. She would have considered him helpless at that point.
Lily didn't appear to have any influence on him when she tried to warn him about Mulciber and Avery, as well as their love of dark magic. And she was very important to him. Despite her trying, he just went further and further down the dark path until she found she'd had enough, and he wasn't going to change. Imo.I completely agree. :agree:

He could have heard about Voldemort and the DE's from the Slytherins (probably did in fact), but that doesn't mean they pressured him into joining. Has anyone considered the possibility that Snape himself influenced some friends when it came to the dark arts?

He could have influenced others as well... that is a possibility. But you know I am not saying that it was a lot of pressure I mean, you know how kids are. "Hey Sev, come with me to see so and so, he is really cool and knows a lot of dark magic..." And if that was a friend, he may have gone along... it isn't drastic pressure but we do agree to things to appease our friends on occasion even if we may not want to.


Lily didn't appear to have any influence on him when she tried to warn him about Mulciber and Avery, as well as their love of dark magic. And she was very important to him. Despite her trying, he just went further and further down the dark path until she found she'd had enough, and he wasn't going to change. Imo. I think if anyone could have an influence on Snape, it would be Lily.

I know this is a valid point; however, I feel that their relationship was different. I don't think that it was a peer pressure situation with Lily... I think that he really thought he was doing something good, that he was making something out of himself for Lily and was hoping Lily would understand that.

I know this is a valid point; however, I feel that their relationship was different. I don't think that it was a peer pressure situation with Lily... I think that he really thought he was doing something good, that he was making something out of himself for Lily and was hoping Lily would understand that.


JKR did say that he was so blinded by his interest in the dark arts, that he thought she'd be impressed if he became a death eater. It sounds insane I know, but hey, insecure kid wanting to be a part of somethign big who's introduced to the cool gang who looks so big and popular...if that's not peer pressure, I don't know what is.

JKR did say that he was so blinded by his interest in the dark arts, that he thought she'd be impressed if he became a death eater. It sounds insane I know, but hey, insecure kid wanting to be a part of somethign big who's introduced to the cool gang who looks so big and popular...if that's not peer pressure, I don't know what is.

Exactly... I think he so believed he was doing right by her that he blinded himself to all else.

I don't think it's evidence they were friends after 5th year, but I thought the exact same thing when reading book 6.

I know, I mean, Lily told Snape there was no way she wanted anything to do with him. But the whole potion book thing, just kind of seem a bit contradictory.

I disagree. I have already read her interviews. If I wanted to be reminded of their contents, I would reread them.

Sorry, didn't mean to be repetitous. :)

I prefer to discuss her books, the things she worked on for 17 years, into which she put lots of thought, and which are multilayered and complicated in a way simple one ir two sentence statements made off the cuff, are not. :)

Fair enough, if you choose to overlook it, that's fine. I'm just putting it out there for those that don't know about it. :)

Anyway, she may be all-knowing in terms of her own intentions (though even that is debatable concerning a creative process) but she is certainly not incapable of error. WHat she wrote may not be what she thought she wrote.;)

I definately agree, don't get me wrong, I mean we had a whole war going on with the Harry-Hermione supporters (not digging it in guys, just saying).

I think the explanation would have to be that they were working above grade level, on their own time. However, I don't actually think they worked together on NEWT Potions. In HBP, SLughorn compares Harry's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death favorably to Snape's first attempt at the same, which is odd given Harry used Snape's instructions. It is my opinion, that this is because Harry used Snape's final, most improved instructions, which Snape finished after his first attempt that Slughorn saw, an attempt he would have made his sixth year.

So I think that Snape and Lily may have worked together before the break-up at the end of fifth year. Which makes sense to me anyway, because why would Snape show Harry an earlier break up, and not their final break-up?

Ah... that makes perfect sense that. I knew there was something simple I was forgetting. Thanks :D

I agree that he had the dislike present before the peer pressure came but I was more referring to the act of those so-called friends pushing him into being a DE with lies. I think that they helped to cultivate and direct what was already there.

Got it :tu: Totally agree :D

Just one thing I was kind of thinking about. When Snape first spotted Lily (haven't got there yet in my rereading :)) in the muggle world, I got the impression that he was excited to meet someone in connection to the wizarding world. He definately knew she was muggleborn, but I got the impression that though he was pretty knowledgable (sp?) about the whole magic community, that he was in a way cut off. I don't know, I got to thinking that maybe he learnt all that from his mother, but his father kept them both away from the magic world as much as possible. Like he had the attitude similar to Uncle Vernon or Aunt Petunia. It would also explain the hungry look he had for Lily when he found out or realised that she was a witch and or noticed her. Any thoughts?

But how how else did he find out about Voldy and the Deatheaters anyway if it weren't for Deatheater children within Slytherin house(and we definitely have canon evidence for that)?

Don't forget what we are told as well that Snape hung out with a group of Slytherins that almost all became Death Eaters. The ever presence of his De-to-be-pals, being a form or contributed to being peer pressured into be one himself I think can be assumed by Lily accusing Snape of this. Seeing as Lily was Snape's best friend and knew him better then his DE wannabe pals, I think I'd go with a yes, he was peer pressured into it. Or at the very least, nudged quite a bit in that direction. :)

Lily didn't appear to have any influence on him when she tried to warn him about Mulciber and Avery, as well as their love of dark magic. And she was very important to him. Despite her trying, he just went further and further down the dark path until she found she'd had enough, and he wasn't going to change. Imo. I think if anyone could have an influence on Snape, it would be Lily.

I agree, that no one but Lily could influence Snape BUT only after he had forever lost her. We see anvil sized chucks of evidence to this, his whole reason for continuing to be a DE, double crossing LV, killing DD, all those acts were all for Lily or at the very least her memory.

However, before then is a different story. Snape's hatred of muggles and dark arts (okay, I'm assuming with the last, though confident) was an obsession. He already had Lily, he was not worried about losing her, she had put up with him for what 5 years, he was in essence, depending on her loyalty and friendship to put up with it. I don't think anyone is in doubt about Lily's loyalty or friendship. Well, IMO anyway. :shrug:

That's a really interesting idea. Snape seemed to be set from an early age that he wanted to be a Slytherin, and we can just assume that the desire to be a Death Eater came from the stories that surrounded that House. I would only have trouble believing that Snape was convincing others to become Death Eaters because of Lily's reaction. She was talking to him like he was being a follower, and convinced him to stay away from the wrong crowd. I don't think she would have thought that it was so easy had he been a leader. She would have considered him helpless at that point.

I agree, your last point especially. :tu:

I know this is a valid point; however, I feel that their relationship was different. I don't think that it was a peer pressure situation with Lily... I think that he really thought he was doing something good, that he was making something out of himself for Lily and was hoping Lily would understand that

I agree, but never usually admit this only because I can't see where he was coming from, that this would be a good for Lily too. :scared:

JKR did say that he was so blinded by his interest in the dark arts, that he thought she'd be impressed if he became a death eater. It sounds insane I know, but hey, insecure kid wanting to be a part of somethign big who's introduced to the cool gang who looks so big and popular...if that's not peer pressure, I don't know what is.

Okay, it makes sense when you say it that way, I mean, didn't DD say that when LV was at school that his "group of friends" had a "dark glamour" about them. They were also into the dark arts as well, so you can see Snape, well, it's logical that Snape would gravitate to that crowd. Still, you would still think that after 5, 6 years of knowing Lily, that he'd see that she doesn't care about that kind of stuff. I guess it was more for him then for her, but he must have convinced himself that it would benefit her or else he wouldn't have kept ignoring her suggestions to dump them. :shrug: Just running with my thoughts here. :D

Got it :tu: Totally agree :D

Just one thing I was kind of thinking about. When Snape first spotted Lily (haven't got there yet in my rereading :)) in the muggle world, I got the impression that he was excited to meet someone in connection to the wizarding world. He definately knew she was muggleborn, but I got the impression that though he was pretty knowledgable (sp?) about the whole magic community, that he was in a way cut off. I don't know, I got to thinking that maybe he learnt all that from his mother, but his father kept them both away from the magic world as much as possible. Like he had the attitude similar to Uncle Vernon or Aunt Petunia. It would also explain the hungry look he had for Lily when he found out or realised that she was a witch and or noticed her. Any thoughts?

That is very interesting... I mean I think there is evidence to support that Snape was sheltered from the magical world and Lily was probably a breath of fresh air at the time. It is sad to think what might have happened had Snape been sorted with Lily because they were close as children. I think that could have continued had he gotten the proper influences.



Don't forget what we are told as well that Snape hung out with a group of Slytherins that almost all became Death Eaters. The ever presence of his De-to-be-pals, being a form or contributed to being peer pressured into be one himself I think can be assumed by Lily accusing Snape of this. Seeing as Lily was Snape's best friend and knew him better then his DE wannabe pals, I think I'd go with a yes, he was peer pressured into it. Or at the very least, nudged quite a bit in that direction. :)

Yes especially after Lily left him. He had no one else but the Slytherin friends he had made. So, I think he would have gone along to keep his friends.


I agree, but never usually admit this only because I can't see where he was coming from, that this would be a good for Lily too. :scared:

I know what you mean. It is hard to imagine how he could think being a DE was a good idea... that is just part of the beautiful tragedy that is Severus Snape.

That is a point that we see very often in relation to why Snape wasn't nice to alot of students. But then, it's a very immature attitude to have.

Personally, I think that it is unhelpful to label an opinion that diverges from your own as ‘immature’ – by all means say you disagree & state your reasons that’s both interesting and constructive, thus providing more material for a debate. Anyway back to the thread :)

Lily he loved. Dumbledore was the only one that knew this secret that not even LV knew about it. So really, I don't think Snape every cared for anyone other than Lily. His actions, personality, fears, desires, thoughts, all stems and orbited around Lily. Okay, maybe his mother, but everyone else was more a means to a purpose.

An interesting point and one with credibility imo; I would however like to stress that although ‘His actions, personality, fears, desires, thoughts, all stems and orbited around Lily’ this does not necessarily mean that it is a straight forward proposition. His relationship with these feelings may, and imo does, cause their expression to be very confusing / different than others may expect of such feelings.


I was kind of wondering about this. Neither Lily nor Snape seem like the cheating type, but don't you think that it was odd that Slughorn mentioned Lily all the time, but never much of Snape's skills? I always found that weird, but anyway.

No – I assumed that Lily was in ‘the slug-club’ and she was also more endearing (can’t imagine why I though that ), Slughorn was also trying to get on Harry’s good side – he had practically been pursuing him all year! I also felt that in the situation it was unnecessary for Slughorn to tell people Snape was good at potions – they had all seen that for themselves, & it is implied by him holding the potions master job at a prestigious establishment like Hogwarts. [/QUOTE]

I think the explanation would have to be that they were working above grade level, on their own time. However, I don't actually think they worked together on NEWT Potions.

:tu: :agree:

In HBP, SLughorn compares Harry's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death favorably to Snape's first attempt at the same, which is odd given Harry used Snape's instructions. It is my opinion, that this is because Harry used Snape's final, most improved instructions, which Snape finished after his first attempt that Slughorn saw, an attempt he would have made his sixth year.

Yes but I always saw Snape as the better potioner. Also I think it’s a safe assumption that Snape paid attention in potions classes, where as I feel that Harry time was split primarily between listening to his friends, the teacher & thinking ‘I hate that git’. :lol: So I would not expect his potion to be of the same standard as the HBP’s instructions could have been. Skill & practice always win out – that’s why Delia Smith will always be a better cook than me. :grumble:

I loved getting to see that there was some common ground between the two. I can imagine them working together & trying out some sneaky variations on the lesson recipes – though probably to mixed results, at least for the first year! :lol:

It also made me wonder what else they had in common – we so rarely get to hear from anyone who saw them together.

I agree, Snape was her first ever introduction to the wizarding world ... kind of like how Hagrid is to Harry. There is a very strong bond of friendship right there. However, Snape's attitude and other friends had been tolerated by Lily for sometime, but I think she knew that if he didn't change, she would no longer feel comfortable being his friend anymore and hence the split after him calling her mudblood inwhich she tells him exactly that.

Well, I think Snape and Lily shared far too many things between them, than Hagrid and Harry who loved each other, but that was it.

Snape and Lily, though IMO,shared an awful lot between them IMO. They were close friends in School and home, for them to have a relation ship of just liking as Harry and Hagrid did IMO.

posted by RavenStar
Maybe I'm just weird, but did anyone else get the feeling JKR was trying to drill into our heads "LILY AND POTIONS! LILY AND POTIONS!"?

I think so too. :)

While they may not have had NEWTS potions together, I feel that Lily would have been very familiar with Snape's Advanced Potion Making text book, which means that she was also knowlegable about the levicorpus, the sectumsempra and other spells for friends and enemies alike IMO.

And she was still friends with Snape, which shows to me that she was okay with it; perhaps she may have even taken part in the crafting and inventing of spells in that book and hers IMO.

In fact that potions book alone I think would show me, seeing that the levicorpus and other spells were already invented before the SWM, Lily too may have had part in their creation IMO.

They shared an awful lot in common IMO; shared many interests together; I wonder how Lily accepted the loss of such a friend in her life after the SWM. Surely she must have mourned for Snape's friendship?

\


While they may not have had NEWTS potions together, I feel that Lily would have been very familiar with Snape's Advanced Potion Making text book, which means that she was also knowlegable about the levicorpus, the sectumsempra and other spells for friends and enemies alike IMO.

And she was still friends with Snape, which shows to me that she was okay with it; perhaps she may have even taken part in the crafting and inventing of spells in that book and hers IMO.

In fact that potions book alone I think would show me, seeing that the levicorpus and other spells were already invented before the SWM, Lily too may have had part in their creation IMO.

They shared an awful lot in common IMO; shared many interests together; I wonder how Lily accepted the loss of such a friend in her life after the SWM. Surely she must have mourned for Snape's friendship?


It is my opinion purely, but I have a hard time seeing Lily help Snape create Sectumsempra... It just doesn't seem like her. I agree that she probably knew about it and most likely did not approve and the spells may have even been one of the points she held against him. Because I don't believe it was just the "mudblood" word... I believe there were things that led up to it and the creation of these spells could have been part of it.

It is my opinion purely, but I have a hard time seeing Lily help Snape create Sectumsempra... It just doesn't seem like her. I agree that she probably knew about it and most likely did not approve and the spells may have even been one of the points she held against him. Because I don't believe it was just the "mudblood" word... I believe there were things that led up to it and the creation of these spells could have been part of it.

I agree. I really dont think that Lily would have helped Snape in the creation of Sectumsempra or levicorpus either. It seems possible that she knew about these spells, and maybe he hoped that they would impress her? I'm sure she disapproved and thought that they were purely dark magic, which she was obviously against. This could very well be something they had an argument over and which would eventually lead to the end of their friendship through the mudblood incident.

They shared an awful lot in common IMO; shared many interests together; I wonder how Lily accepted the loss of such a friend in her life after the SWM. Surely she must have mourned for Snape's friendship?

No canon for my POV, beyond the fact that I believe she did really care about Severus, TGW, but I am sure she did. She would have also mourned his ever increasing involvement in the Death Eaters.

But Lily a co-partner in inventing Sectumsempra???? :wow: No way. :no: That is a seriously nasty spell, causing lasting injury, as with George. When Harry used it on Draco, he nearly killed him! That would be utterly out of character for Lily, IMO. I can't even see her being involved in helping to create spells like Levicorpus. She hated James hexing Snape for fun and that was mild compared to Sectumsempra!

I defend the Snape/Lily friendship as presented in canon because I think Lils genuinely cared for Sev (she's practically the only person who did ever care for him, IMO), but they weren't joined at the hip: he had his Slytherin friends, she had her Gryff ones and they just drifted further and further apart -- and as Severus got ever more enmeshed in the Dark Arts and wannabe Death Eater stuff, I would imagine he would have kept a lot of this stuff from Lily. :( She hated hearing what rumours she did: that his mates were involved in practicing Dark Magic on innocents like Mary McDonald.

While I'm sure that they did work together of techniques & certain potions etc. I think that there were some Lily probably wouldn't have touched with a barge-pole!

I dread to think what NEWT potions classes would have been like for them – very awkward and painful is my guess. :(

I dread to think what NEWT potions classes would have been like for them – very awkward and painful is my guess. :(

Gosh, yes. I never thought of that. :wow:

:(

Well, I think Snape and Lily shared far too many things between them, than Hagrid and Harry who loved each other, but that was it.
They shared too many things between them? I was under the impression they shared too little.

Snape and Lily, though IMO,shared an awful lot between them IMO. They were close friends in School and home, for them to have a relation ship of just liking as Harry and Hagrid did IMO.
The only things I saw in canon that they shared, was magic, and a talent in potions. And a talent in potions doesn't even mean Lily liked the subject. But correct me if I'm missing something else :)

They shared an awful lot in common IMO; shared many interests together; I wonder how Lily accepted the loss of such a friend in her life after the SWM. Surely she must have mourned for Snape's friendship?
You keep saying that, but I really wish, for my benefit, what interests they had in common you see from canon :) This is one reason I find the Lily and Snape friendship so puzzling; I do not see them having very much in common.

Pearl_Took
I defend the Snape/Lily friendship as presented in canon because I think Lils genuinely cared for Sev (she's practically the only person who did ever care for him, IMO), but they weren't joined at the hip: he had his Slytherin friends, she had her Gryff ones and they just drifted further and further apart -- and as Severus got ever more enmeshed in the Dark Arts and wannabe Death Eater stuff, I would imagine he would have kept a lot of this stuff from Lily. She hated hearing what rumours she did: that his mates were involved in practicing Dark Magic on innocents like Mary McDonald.
:tu:

But how do you see it working? cold sholder, competitive, just sitting as far away as possible???

I can't see either of them being out right mean to the other one, but I'm not sure what would happen. any ideas? :hmm:

I can't see either of them being out right mean to the other one, but I'm not sure what would happen. any ideas? :hmm:
I'm not sure if Lily would find it as awkward as Snape, because I think she had completely moved on from him in seventh year. She probably sat with James and the other marauders and was comfortable with them. Snape might glare across the table, feeling jealous, angry, and depressed? That's one of my ideas anyway. I definitely think Snape would have more of a problem with it than Lily.

I'm not sure if Lily would find it as awkward as Snape, because I think she had completely moved on from him in seventh year. She probably sat with James and the other marauders and was comfortable with them. Snape might glare across the table, feeling jealous, angry, and depressed? That's one of my ideas anyway. I definitely think Snape would have more of a problem with it than Lily.

I wouldn't have thought any of the marauders were in NEWT potions.

Lupin couldn't make Wolfsbane potion - if he had studies potions at a higher level that is one potion I can imagine him learning to make! but you'd need higher level training as the ingredients an be very poisonous so I don’t think he studied it.

Sirius made that chemistry set quip - made me think he didn't like the subject.

I don’t think Sirius would have been so down on it is his best buddy had been studying it at that level JMO

Peter – don’t know anything about his likely hood of studying it or not.


Added to that at the beginning of NEWT studies there is no reason the believe that she would want to hang about with any of them (except maybe Remus), it just doesn’t fit with time line IMO. :)

Lupin couldn't make Wolfsbane potion - if he had studies potions at a higher level that is one potion I can imagine him learning to make! but you'd need higher level training as the ingredients an be very poisonous so I don’t think he studied it.

I think he needed Snape do make it for him, because it was a special recipe improed by Snape or recently improved or exprimental or something. In any case it sounded like it wouldn't have been on the curriculum 15 years before.

I think he needed Snape do make it for him, because it was a special recipe improed by Snape or recently improved or exprimental or something. In any case it sounded like it wouldn't have been on the curriculum 15 years before.

My point was more that if he'd had higher level training - he would have been in a position to learn to make it, and if he had been I think he would have.

I alwys had the impresson that it was a perk of the job JMO :)

Well I meant Lily may have known about most of the spells because it was written pretty openly; about helping Snape about the spells is also a possibility IMO. Lily IMO was knowledgable about the sectumsempra, but I don't know if she helped him create it; and her knowledge too, was because Snape had written those in the potions book which Lily surely must have seen IMO. And I was also sure, she would have asked questions and may have been interested.

While sectumsempra is a nasty curse, is it a dark one? It seems to cut the body and since it was written *for enemies* Lily may or may not have also helped create it, because she had enemies too; in the DEs IMO.

But as I wrote before, I still think whether Lily helped create the sectumsempra or not; she would have known about it, simply because I felt she would have had access to Snape's potion book.

And frankly creation of a spell does not make her evil. They could have been trying to create something and may have ended up with the sectumsempra and decided that since it did harm; that should be a spell for enemies IMO.

While sectumsempra is a nasty curse, is it a dark one?

Yes. :cool: Snape confirms that in HBP: when Harry slashes Draco with this spell, and Snape chews him out over it, he remarks that he would not have guessed that Harry knew such Dark Magic.

And frankly creation of a spell does not make her evil.

Oh, of course not. :) But I would find it wildly out of character for Lily to have helped create a Dark Magic, incredibly violent curse that literally cuts people up. Snape's misfired Sectumsempra, aimed at another DE in the Seven Potters battle, sliced off George's ear. :(

On a less controversial note, it is certainly fascinating to speculate how much Lily knew about Sev's private potions book ... but I am certain he would have kept the Dark Magic stuff secret from her. No canon to back me up, of course. ;) Just my own speculation. :)

Oh, of course not. :) But I would find it wildly out of character for Lily to have helped create a Dark Magic, incredibly violent curse that literally cuts people up. Snape's misfired Sectumsempra, aimed at another DE in the Seven Potters battle, sliced off George's ear. :(I quite agree. That is just not Lily. The curses that he created, and all of the Dark stuff that Snape was doing at the time, that was the part of him Lily liked that least and caused her to want to end their friendship. I doubt she would encourage that by helping him create spells like that, which could only be used to harm others. I would be willing to bet quite a lot she didn't have anything to do with that at all. :)
On a less controversial note, it is certainly fascinating to speculate how much Lily knew about Sev's private potions book ... but I am certain he would have kept the Dark Magic stuff secret from her. No canon to back me up, of course. ;) Just my own speculation. :)
I wonder. We also know that Lily was an expert at potions, maybe even better than Snape because we never hear Slughorn mention him. I wouldn't be surprised if she saw some of the alternate potion directions, but certainly not the Dark Magic spells. That was something Snape knew Lily would not like at all, so I bet he didn't go telling her that. ;)

I find the need to glorify James & vilify Snape intriguing; however I feel it has little to do with character analysis. This thread is supposed to be for the discussion of Snape & Lily’s relationship; to me that does not seem to include who Lily married, to any great extent.


I don't want to get off topic, but I have to say something. I think no one on this board is glorifying James and vilifying Snape, which I don't think is right. But I also don't think vilifying James and glorifying Snape is right either. In all honestly, I do think James is important to Snape and Lily. Lily married James, so most definitely he is an important factor in her life and Snape carried a 20 year old grudge against James since "Lily preferred James" (PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part two.) so I would think James is kind of a factor when dealing with Snape.

Maybe I'm just weird, but did anyone else get the feeling JKR was trying to drill into our heads "LILY AND POTIONS! LILY AND POTIONS!"? :huh:

Nah, I got that feeling too. It was weird to me. I always wondered what Lily's specialty was, like James' was Transfiguration, but I didn't expect it to be Potions.



If Lily couldn't persuade Snape to turn to the good side, I don't see how his Slytherin friends could be the key factor to turning him to the bad side. Snape seems like a pretty stubborn person. I think he chose his own way.

Interesting point. I have to say I mostly agree with you. I do think he chose his own way, and honestly I prefer to think Snape chose his own way rather than to think he’s submit to peer pressure.



While they may not have had NEWTS potions together, I feel that Lily would have been very familiar with Snape's Advanced Potion Making text book, which means that she was also knowlegable about the levicorpus, the sectumsempra and other spells for friends and enemies alike IMO.

And she was still friends with Snape, which shows to me that she was okay with it; perhaps she may have even taken part in the crafting and inventing
?

Personally, I don’t think Lily helped Snape invent Sectumsempra canonly. But it is an idea I like to muse about. It reminds me of this really good fanfic: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3748716/1/Anecdotes

They shared an awful lot in common IMO; shared many interests together; I wonder how Lily accepted the loss of such a friend in her life after the SWM. Surely she must have mourned for Snape's friendship?

I don't think we know enough canonly to know how Lily accepted the end the friendship. I guess that is one of the things we can take a guess on and personally fill-in ourselves. I only speak for myself, but to me Lily seemed so very mad at Snape during the break up scene, that I think she was finished and sick of him and she was very relieved when she broke up with him and that she easily got over it. IMO, I think Lily she didn't think she was losing much.


I dread to think what NEWT potions classes would have been like for them – very awkward and painful is my guess. :(
Not if they had someone to entertain and distract them. Snape probably had no one, so it would be awkward and painful for him I guess. But if Lily had a friend or James ;) in class with her, I think she would be too into them to notice.

Personally, I think that it is unhelpful to label an opinion that diverges from your own as ‘immature’ – by all means say you disagree & state your reasons that’s both interesting and constructive, thus providing more material for a debate. Anyway back to the thread

Original

Besides why should he treat others nicely when no one ever treated him nicely?

That is a point that we see very often in relation to why Snape wasn't nice to alot of students. But then, it's a very immature attitude to have. This characteristic of Snape's would be IMO, due to the fact that he never got over losing the love of his life, especially to the man who terrorised him in school. These emotions are highly understandable. Still, IMO there is no excuse for his treatment of children put in his care.

Looking back at that again, the opinion that Snape didn't need to nice to those that weren't treating him nicely, is still IMO a very immature attitude to have. Come to think about it, I completely disagree with it. He just favoured those he favoured and treated everyone else like irritating flies IMO. :D Thanks for that, I guess I was too much in a hurry to properly think about it the first time. ;)

I would however like to stress that although ‘His actions, personality, fears, desires, thoughts, all stems and orbited around Lily’ this does not necessarily mean that it is a straight forward proposition. His relationship with these feelings may, and imo does, cause their expression to be very confusing / different than others may expect of such feelings.

Okay, not sure if I got this right, but your saying that Snape did not act as though everything he lived for was for Lily. Mainly because they were on different sides of the war, he was a double agent, he was respecting her wish to never have anything to do with him again (okay, the last is what I imagine he was feeling) and these are the reasons why his feelings for Lily weren't obvious. So, I agree :D

Well, I think Snape and Lily shared far too many things between them, than Hagrid and Harry who loved each other, but that was it.

Snape and Lily, though IMO,shared an awful lot between them IMO. They were close friends in School and home, for them to have a relation ship of just liking as Harry and Hagrid did IMO.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Lily and Snape were each others connection to the magical world when they were at home from Hogwarts, they were also each other first "connection" or "introduction" to the magic world in a way. Lily, found out the reason for the odd things that happy and Snape's first encounter (okay, guessing here) with another magical person other than his mother. Which is why they had the close relationship, which yes I agree, they shared more than what Hagrid and Harry shared, but the I think I was more going for what Hagrid, even Hedwig represented to Harry as well.

It is my opinion purely, but I have a hard time seeing Lily help Snape create Sectumsempra... It just doesn't seem like her.

Agreed. Lily was tolerant of Snape's fascination with the dark arts, but I don't see anywhere or can think of any situation inwhich she would help Snape invent a dark spell.

I defend the Snape/Lily friendship as presented in canon because I think Lils genuinely cared for Sev (she's practically the only person who did ever care for him, IMO), but they weren't joined at the hip: he had his Slytherin friends, she had her Gryff ones and they just drifted further and further apart -- and as Severus got ever more enmeshed in the Dark Arts and wannabe Death Eater stuff, I would imagine he would have kept a lot of this stuff from Lily. She hated hearing what rumours she did::frown: that his mates were involved in practicing Dark Magic on innocents like Mary McDonald.

Brilliant! :notworthy: (if this smiley doesn't show up, it's a smiley face bowing:lol:)

This is one reason I find the Lily and Snape friendship so puzzling; I do not see them having very much in common.

Come to think about it, I do totally agree with you here with I think about it :yes:, but for me their relationship wasn't so much the James&Sirius, Ron&Harry (best friends here) - where you see quite a bit or a majority of stuff they have in common, but more of what they were to each other. A bit like a rock in each others lives I guess, you know as I've mentioned before like Hedwig was to Harry a connection to the magical world, reminding him it wasn't all a dream. Like Hagrid, their first "contact" with a magical person (okay, Snape's mum, I'm not counting). Don't ask me why, I'm still rereading and not there yet, but this was the impression that had when I first read Snape's memories of Lily.

I can't see either of them being out right mean to the other one, but I'm not sure what would happen. any ideas?

Neither. I think Lily would have carried on as usual, but instead of treating Snape as a friend, she treated him like she would have anyone else. I wouldn't go as far as saying cold shoulder, maybe blanking him? :shrug: I think I'll go with blanking him.

I wouldn't have thought any of the marauders were in NEWT potions.

:elaugh: That's exactly what I thought. Anyway, we know they would have had DADA classes, maybe transfiguration, charms, I reckon Lily and Snape may have had Runes, but can't see the marauders there. I don't think Lily would have sat with the marauders in NEWTS, maybe in 7th year, but I reckon she would have kept to her other friends after the mudblood incident.

I think he needed Snape do make it for him, because it was a special recipe improed by Snape or recently improved or exprimental or something. In any case it sounded like it wouldn't have been on the curriculum 15 years before.

I think he said he wasn't a very skilled potion maker.

'Professor Snapehas very kindly concocted a potion for me. he said. 'I have never been much of a potion-brewer and this one is particularly complex.' <snip>

But yes, you're right in that it was a recent discovery as there was no Wolfbane potion while Lupin was attending Hogwarts. I think it's safe to say that Lupin wasn't in NEWTS level potions.

But as I wrote before, I still think whether Lily helped create the sectumsempra or not; she would have known about it, simply because I felt she would have had access to Snape's potion book.

Okay, I think there is definately a possibililty of Lily knowing about Sectumsempra or I think she would have known that Snape had created it.

And frankly creation of a spell does not make her evil. They could have been trying to create something and may have ended up with the sectumsempra and decided that since it did harm; that should be a spell for enemies IMO.

Sorry, still disagree. I don't think that Snape would have worked on this with her at all. Since Snape was obssessed with the dark arts, his hatred for being bullied by the maraunders, it seems more likely that Snape worked on this alone. Lily only ever shared his dislike for the maraunders, but to set out to make a spell to hurt another person that badly, is definately something Lily would not have participate in, remember that is why she disliked the maraunders so much.

Also, I highly doubt that you can make dark magic with good intentions. Unless there's cannon from JKR, I sorry, I would have to disagree with your opinion here.

On a less controversial note, it is certainly fascinating to speculate how much Lily knew about Sev's private potions book ... but I am certain he would have kept the Dark Magic stuff secret from her. No canon to back me up, of course. ;)

:lol: I agree :tu: Though, it was Snape's mother's old potions book. Snape has a brilliant mind, kind of reminds me of Dumbledore in this way, that with trial, error and deductions that he come up with correct potion methods, invented new spells, etc. It shows that Snape, as a wizard, was genius. We also know that by 5th year, the spells he created were already quite a fad (gee, that sounds wrong :lol:) and were quite commonly used by the end of that year. So, basically, Lily knew of the book before NEWTS level. I don't think that she had anything to do with it after the mudblood incident though.

but I am certain he would have kept the Dark Magic stuff secret from her.

Exactly :tu: Snape would have been silly to flaunt that stuff in front of her, when he knew full well her standing on stuff like that.

I don't want to get off topic, but I have to say something. I think no one on this board is glorifying James and vilifying Snape, which I don't think is right. But I also don't think vilifying James and glorifying Snape is right either. In all honestly, I do think James is important to Snape and Lily. Lily married James, so most definitely he is an important factor in her life and Snape carried a 20 year old grudge against James since "Lily preferred James" (PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part two.) so I would think James is kind of a factor when dealing with Snape.

'Ear, 'ear! I do agree, only give credit where credit is due. They both had imperfections and human faults. James contributed much to the lives of both Lily and Snape, there is no denying that,but I think the main reason is to avoid all the full blown wars that tend to crop up due to human emotions, one can not help but like one more than the other and therefore tends to take personal offence when their preferred is critised in their opinion unjustly. This is both sides of the foray by the way. Basically, we all find it very hard to be and stayobjective due to our emotions. Sad but true. :(

Sirius made that chemistry set quip - made me think he didn't like the subject.
Wasn't that in the movie only? And even if Sirius did, that doesn't mean he wasn't good at it (in fact I recall Mcgonnagal saying he was one of the cleverest students in his year).

I don’t think Sirius would have been so down on it is his best buddy had been studying it at that level JMO
I'm sorry, this makes no sense to me whatsoever. So you're saying that if a friend of mine loves math, I wouldn't express any dislike for the subject? James could have disliked the subject, but still been good in it, and took it because maybe he needed it for a job he was interested in pursuing (like Harry needing potions to become an auror). We know for a fact James was a highly gifted student.

Added to that at the beginning of NEWT studies there is no reason the believe that she would want to hang about with any of them (except maybe Remus), it just doesn’t fit with time line IMO. :)
I'm guessing she was more than willing to hang about with James seeing is how he was her loving boyfriend ;) But we do know she was a friend of Remus, Sirius, and Peter after school. I agree we do not know how friendly she was with them during seventh year.

PerfectDystopia
I only speak for myself, but to me Lily seemed so very mad at Snape during the break up scene, that I think she was finished and sick of him and she was very relieved when she broke up with him and that she easily got over it. IMO, I think Lily she didn't think she was losing much.

:agree: I agree with you completely. I don't think Lily felt like she was losing much either, judging by the way she handled the break up.

On a less controversial note, it is certainly fascinating to speculate how much Lily knew about Sev's private potions book ... but I am certain he would have kept the Dark Magic stuff secret from her. No canon to back me up, of course. ;) Just my own speculation. :)

Very fascinating! I wonder what she actually knew about his changes and his improvements. Did they discuss it in class? Did Lily contribute to any of those improvements? It is very interesting to speculate.

She stopped seeing him as a friend and started seeing him as James and Sirius claimed he was IMO.

I don't really see any canon that supports this. I never got the impression that she felt the same way as James and Sirius when it came to Snape. IMO, it was clear that she loved him as a friend, and, honestly, I don't think that is the same for James and Sirius. :whistle: James and Sirius didn't like Snape for numerous reasons, some of them being his interest in Dark Arts and desire to get them expelled. Lily had the same attitude towards the Dark Arts, but I don't see how that came after the Werewolf Incident. James and Sirius loathed Snape - IMO, Lily never felt that way about them.

Had she given him a choice, I still think Snape would have chosen her friendship, but she did not, and when she told him to go away, he all the more, could not stop hanging out with the Slytherins IMO.

I don't think Lily had to give him a clear choice in order for him to return to Lily. He was capable of dropping his friends, his interest in the Dark Arts and belief in pureblood superiority, but he didn't do that. He could have chosen to leave all of that after the friendship ended, but he didn't do that. He was responsible for what he did, and I don't think Lily should be blamed for his decision to choose Voldemort and the Dark Arts over Lily.

If it was just one word, I'd agree with you. However, it was way more than one word. We saw Lily begging Snape to break off his friendship with the other Death Eaters, trying to persuade him that using the Dark Arts on other students is evil. We heard that Snape, even if Lily was the exception, really did call other Muggle-borns "Mudblood". We also saw enough of Lily to know that she was compassionate and kind, not hard and vindictive at all. The SWM scene was the last straw for her.

:agree: Perfectly worded, anabel! I don't think the word alone is the reason for the breach in the friendship between Snape and Lily. It was merely the last straw for Lily. Even though Snape told her that he didn't mean to call her a Mudblood, it didn't make a difference to her because he was willing to call others that, meaning that Lily was only an exception. There was a lot more to the her decision than a word, IMO.

So I wasn't trying to say that he was some saint, but I don't think he was as bad as everyone keeps saying he was. He was what 16 at the time?

First, as a person who is not a big fan of Snape, I don't hold his actions at sixteen against him. He repented for those actions through remorse and by joining the Order of the Phoenix. I am merely criticizing Snape because we are analyzing Snape from who he was at that age. ;)

And, secondly, I don't think one's age is an important factor in analyzing someone's character and choices. If he was thirty, would he still be excused for what he did? I don't think age is an excuse for what he did.

Besides why should he treat others nicely when no one ever treated him nicely?

Because by not treating others nicely, he is proving to others that he is just as bad as them. I really can't see someone as excused for doing (what I personally consider) sadistic actions simply because he or she was never treated nicely by others. If he chose to be nice - which he was capable of doing - then it would show a strength in his character, IMO. In real life there have been many circumstances when people that went through horrible ordeals emerge as humanitarians. Snape shouldn't be excused, in my view, because others didn't treat him nicely. And, furthermore, if he wants to have others treat him nicely, he's going to have to treat others nicely as well.

I don't know how friendly she was with those in Gryffindor. She may have known a few of them, but to me it was obvious that until fifth year, no one could take Snape's place. Had they done so, she would have surely been friends with them and moved away from Snape; because it was convenient for one thing and beause two they would give what Snape did; friendship IMO.

A person can be best friends with two people without drifting apart from one of them. I don't see anything that supports the idea that Snape was Lily's only close friend. Even so, it wasn't very obvious to those at Hogwarts - few people were aware of how close they were, according to JKR.

They were all in the same House and would surely spend quality time together; but for Lily, Snape seemed more likeble and certainly a better friend, IMO and one she did not want to lose, because she kept her friendship, knowing Snape called others mudblood for years, and knowing he was attracted to the Dark Arts and was an oddball and so on....IMO.

:no: I don't think friends usually call others more likable and a better friend in general. Nothing says that Lily ever felt that way, either.

NOw I will weigh back into the discussions. It seems that a few posters are overlooking James faults - maybe because he was Harry's father and redeemed himelf quite a number of years before Severus did.

I don't think it's fair to generalize other's opinions. :no: I am fully aware of James' flaws and it's his flaws that made a lot of me like him as a character, something I've noticed is the same with other people that like James.

AND Severus did redeem himself eventually. However it seems to me James that had a much more advantageous upbringing but was still am arrogant toe-rag and a bully who seemed to think he was above everyone else but Severus was poor and had a horrible bully for a father (perhaps James reminded Sev of his father? Unlikely but you never know). Lily had a different upbringing but sees a similarity in her upbringing to James' and eventually was drawn towards him when his behavior improved. However Severus was vulnerable and drawn into a dark cult as his mother possibly had leanings that way but I can't really see why so many are condemning Severus and not James who had no influences or circumstances related to the kind of life Severus had the misfortune to have had. IMO Severus had less control over the circumstances of his life etc than James had. Lily tried to see this but due to her upbringing most likely had less chance of seeing it than say someone who was brought up like Severus was and mostly having a life centred mostly around he fellow Gryffindors had less chance of sympathising with anyone from Slytherin - including Severus- for obvious reasons.

Well, first, a lot of people aren't condemning James since this is, after all, a Snape and Lily thread. I do think that James was wrong for what he did, but I don't think Snape is any worse/better only because he had a rough childhood. I know it's horrible that he he had an unhappy home, but I don't see that as an excuse for what he did. Sirius didn't have a happy home either and did the same things as James, but I never think either of them is better or worse just because of their upbringing. I feel the same way with Snape.

Well, we actually are told this by JKR herself - the all knowing God of the Potterverse. She said be was a saddistic teacher, meaning - he enjoyed bullying his younger students. Some say that JKR has no idea what she's talking about, but I think since she created him, gave him his whole personality, she probably is a better authority on that subject then others. :)

:agree: That, and also the numerous times in the series when Snape smiles at the sight of humiliating students is an obvious sign (IMO) that he enjoyed the way he treated his students.

Well, I think Snape and Lily shared far too many things between them, than Hagrid and Harry who loved each other, but that was it.

I disagree. Harry and Hagrid didn't have many similar hobbies, but they at least had similar morals and beliefs when it came to Voldemort and pureblood supremacy. Remus and Voldemort both most likely had an interest in DADA, seeing as they both wanted that job at Hogwarts, but that doesn't mean they were more similar than others that didn't share that interest.

While they may not have had NEWTS potions together, I feel that Lily would have been very familiar with Snape's Advanced Potion Making text book, which means that she was also knowlegable about the levicorpus, the sectumsempra and other spells for friends and enemies alike IMO.

And she was still friends with Snape, which shows to me that she was okay with it; perhaps she may have even taken part in the crafting and inventing of spells in that book and hers IMO.

In fact that potions book alone I think would show me, seeing that the levicorpus and other spells were already invented before the SWM, Lily too may have had part in their creation IMO.

I am firmly against the idea of Lily being okay with Sectumsempra or even helping him craft such a spell. She considered Mulciber and Avery evil for using the Dark Arts and JKR said that she considered Snape to be attracted to "loathsome acts." I cannot imagine Lily ever accepting such a spell.

They shared an awful lot in common IMO; shared many interests together; I wonder how Lily accepted the loss of such a friend in her life after the SWM. Surely she must have mourned for Snape's friendship?

Other than potions, what did they have in common? I don't think had an awful lot of common, especially since Lily was opposed to many of the things that Snape was attracted to.

Lupin couldn't make Wolfsbane potion - if he had studies potions at a higher level that is one potion I can imagine him learning to make! but you'd need higher level training as the ingredients an be very poisonous so I don’t think he studied it.

Woflsbane sounds like a really advanced potion and it wasn't invented during his time at Hogwarts. It would make sense if he didn't understand it since it wasn't in his curriculum.

Sirius made that chemistry set quip - made me think he didn't like the subject.

As DeliciousMoon pointed out, that was a line from the movie. And Slughorn mentioned that Sirius was talented. He must have had some aptitude in the subject.

While sectumsempra is a nasty curse, is it a dark one? It seems to cut the body and since it was written *for enemies* Lily may or may not have also helped create it, because she had enemies too; in the DEs IMO.

It is definitely a dark one. Snape even admits it, and he's the one who created it!

I'm guessing she was more than willing to hang about with James seeing is how he was her loving boyfriend ;)

True, but that wasn't until 7th year. I don't think Lily's ... acceptance? ... of James would have been that instant. It think it would have been gradual, especially since it took her a year (roughly) after her falling out with Snape before she went out with James. :shrug:

I agree with you completely. I don't think Lily felt like she was losing much either, judging by the way she handled the break up.

I don't completely agree with this. She seemed to have put up with his dark arts obsession and other friends for quite sometime.

'It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! Your don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
'I can't pretend any more. you've chosen your way, I've chosen mine.'

The fact that she valued her friendship enough to excuse and pretend to the fine with Snape's behaviour/interests, shows that she valued him as a friend deeply, until she saw there was no hope. That Snape was going a certain way that she could neither condon nor allow herself to be apart of or associated with.

It's because of this, IMO that she didn't think of it as nothing. But saw the end of their friendship something that had to happen as it was no longer working and she could no longer make excuses for.

Very fascinating! I wonder what she actually knew about his changes and his improvements. Did they discuss it in class? Did Lily contribute to any of those improvements? It is very interesting to speculate.

I always seemed to get roped into this one :grumble: (but not complaining :)) Come to think about it, I'm sure she would have seem the earlier stuff he would have done from it. But due to Slughorn's comment in HBP, when he compares Snape's first attempt to Harry's.

'Well, then, it's natural ability!' shouted Slughorn. 'You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, the Draught of Living Death - never had a student prouce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus -'

I don't think she saw all the adjustments seeing as it looks as though quite a few of those were made during Snape's NEWTS year.

I don't think the word alone is the reason for the breach in the friendship between Snape and Lily. It was merely the last straw for Lily. Even though Snape told her that he didn't mean to call her a Mudblood, it didn't make a difference to her because he was willing to call others that, meaning that Lily was only an exception. There was a lot more to the her decision than a word, IMO.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes. :cool: Snape confirms that in HBP: when Harry slashes Draco with this spell, and Snape chews him out over it, he remarks that he would not have guessed that Harry knew such Dark Magic.

I missed that. :)

Oh, of course not. :) But I would find it wildly out of character for Lily to have helped create a Dark Magic, incredibly violent curse that literally cuts people up. Snape's misfired Sectumsempra, aimed at another DE in the Seven Potters battle, sliced off George's ear. :(

I don't think Lily would have helped create a spell knowing it to be a dark one or it was meant to be *for enemies*. I think it may have been possible for Lily and Snape to be very interested in spell crafting and making adjustments to existing potins, and they may or may not have created this spell. I don't know and in the light of that being a dark spell I agree with all those who said Lily and Snape along with Lily would not have conciously developed it as a dark spell.

But to have stumbled on it, while creating another spell; I still think it's a possibility, and Lily may have also told snape, that since the spell looked dark or capable of doing severe damage, they should not use it. That may be another possibility too IMO.

But creating a spell like say the muffliato or some other harmless or fun jinx is something I can see an excited Lily and Snape doing, using Arithmncy calculation and discussing it, and in the creation of one spell they could have stumbled on to another too; like the sectumsempra IMO.

On a less controversial note, it is certainly fascinating to speculate how much Lily knew about Sev's private potions book ... but I am certain he would have kept the Dark Magic stuff secret from her. No canon to back me up, of course. ;) Just my own speculation. :)

This I surely think Lily knew. Mainly because they probably shared Potion classes (Slytherin and Gryffindor) and they also sat together in Potions class, and also did their homework together. And even though it was a NEWTS level book, I still think they may have discussed and also using Slughorn's permission, tried out a few things from that before they broke away. And if not in School, then they may have discussed theories in the holidays, where Lily would have seen this book IMO.

While I have no canon to prove this, I somehow think it may be a possibility.

posted by beatifically
I don't really see any canon that supports this. I never got the impression that she felt the same way as James and Sirius when it came to Snape. IMO, it was clear that she loved him as a friend, and, honestly, I don't think that is the same for James and Sirius. James and Sirius didn't like Snape for numerous reasons, some of them being his interest in Dark Arts and desire to get them expelled. Lily had the same attitude towards the Dark Arts, but I don't see how that came after the Werewolf Incident. James and Sirius loathed Snape - IMO, Lily never felt that way about them.

It was after the werewolf incident IMO that Lily started seeing Snape differently. And perhaps, though I don't have canon for this, she was pretending to be his friend until the SWm, where she could not pretend any longer IMO.

From the werewolf incident I think she started giving credibility to James and sirius's words about Snape, and subconciously started taking their opinions of Snape as the right one. That IMO was because she was falling for James or at least ahd a crush on him, and was awed by his *resue* of Snape from a monstor. She IMO did not know the full story because Sirius's part in that incident was not known to her, and Snape seemed to keep his mouth shut about the whole thing.

So, in Lily's eyes it was James's rescue of Snape without reason IMO. There was nothing involved except Snape being in danger IMO. From that time, I think she saw Snape differently, because HE refused to acknowldge James's actions. That angered her and slwoly over the next few months, perhaps made her think of all that James and Sirius and her *friends* in Gryffindor said about Snape and perhaps let it influence her.

And what would have made all those words real, was Snape's hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. So by the time SWM happened, Lily had already decided to end the friendship and she took his swear word to call it quits between them IMO.

That could also be a reason why she never gave Snape a choice or asked him his view of the whole thing as she should have, before breaking off a friendship that Snape clearly wanted IMO.

I still think she should have given a choice to Snape and I am personally sure, he would have chosen Lily; but by that time, Lily was so sure about her opinions of Snape and his mind, that she broke off with him IMO.

While I have no canon to prove this, I somehow think it may be a possibility.

I think it's all plausible possibility, sure. :) And the whole thing about Lily and Severus being so brilliant at potions together is a rich theme to explore. :p

It was after the werewolf incident IMO that Lily started seeing Snape differently. And perhaps, though I don't have canon for this, she was pretending to be his friend until the SWM, where she could not pretend any longer IMO.

I don't interpret Lily's words to mean she had been pretending to be Snape's friend and now she couldn't pretend to be his friend anymore. I think she meant she couldn't pretend that what she had tried to deny was true: that Severus was on board with the pure-blood agenda and insulting and targetting 'Mudbloods'. When he insulted her with this deadly racial insult, the pretence for her was finally blown apart -- she could no longer deny that's what Sev was attaining to be -- a Death Eater. That's how I interpret her words.

From the werewolf incident I think she started giving credibility to James and sirius's words about Snape, and subconciously started taking their opinions of Snape as the right one. That IMO was because she was falling for James or at least ahd a crush on him, and was awed by his *resue* of Snape from a monstor. She IMO did not know the full story because Sirius's part in that incident was not known to her, and Snape seemed to keep his mouth shut about the whole thing.

So, in Lily's eyes it was James's rescue of Snape without reason IMO. There was nothing involved except Snape being in danger IMO. From that time, I think she saw Snape differently, because HE refused to acknowldge James's actions. That angered her and slwoly over the next few months, perhaps made her think of all that James and Sirius and her *friends* in Gryffindor said about Snape and perhaps let it influence her.

The whole werewolf incident is troubling for many reasons, I agree. And I'm not of the school of thought that thinks Severus was an innocent victim in this case ... he was an idiot (and Sirius was even worse: what WAS he thinking???) However, I am not sure why you would put asterisks around the word 'friends' ... why would Lily's Gryffindor friends not be genuine friends to her? In all fairness to them, they just see Snape as a wannabe Death Eater kid who approves of bullying Mudbloods, behaviour which is complete anathema to any Gryffindor. Lily says she tries justifying her friendship with Snape to them but they are baffled because all they can see of Snape is a guy who likes to targets Mudbloods. One can't really blame them for that, can one?

I still think she should have given a choice to Snape and I am personally sure, he would have chosen Lily; but by that time, Lily was so sure about her opinions of Snape and his mind, that she broke off with him IMO.

I agree that Lily is somewhat judgemental in this, TGW. But I also think she has cause (and she is, after all, only 15). Her anger at Severus is more than justified: the 'Mudblood' insult is directly equivalent to any vicious racial slur that I can think of. The judgementalism is seen in the way she refuses to give him one last chance: I agree with that. But, then, that is what the whole conversation is about: I get the distinct impression that she's given him chances before, and this time he has truly blown it. It really is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Believe me, I feel for Sev. I feel sad for him that he lost such a good friend in Lily, a girl who could have led him to the Light (whether or not they would ever have become involved romantically) -- Lily stands for everything that he was actually turning his back on, at the time.

But he made his own choices, as much as Lily did. I think he had ample time to choose Lily over the Dark Side: they were friends for how long? He even has a chance here, as she stands outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor in her dressing gown, to refute her charge that he is becoming a Death Eater.

He doesn't. :(

The importance of choice being something that's so strongly stressed through the entire HP series, I think Snape and Lily's relationship served to show us just how different the choices that people can make, are. Choice and free will are two things that I see on every level of this relationship: Lily chose to keep her friendship with Snape for as long as she did, and then made the choice to leave it. Similarly, Snape is also the one who makes a choice (not explicitly stated, but it can be inferred) to remain friends witha Muggle-born girl, among the other things that he did. They both made good and ill-advised choices. And, going by what I know of Snape's character, he would never be the kind to deny that he did exercise a measure of choice in his actions...

I'm not sure that Lily would have known about Sectumsempra as their friendship had ended in the fifth year and NEWT classes start in year six. I saw Snape adding 'for enemies' later, as part of his anger towards the Marauders and what he saw as their role in the break-up of his friendship with Lily. It is unrelated to the subject of Potions and he my have written it in his book as he was watching Lily sitting accross the classroom from him. James may have even been trying to get her attention at the time.

All pure speculation of course.

I'm sorry, I really don't see why Lily would have to give Snape a blatant "it's me or them" choice at all. Snape isn't a child. He couldn't deny to Lily that he wanted to be a DE, he couldn't understand her dislike of the dark arts, despite them being best friends. It is here that the "Snape's tragedy" is his own making choice to ignore Lily's pleas over the years and believing that she would put up with it. At the very least, not bothering to try and understand where she is coming from, though as an outsider this is obvious.

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,avery if snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

Snape is an intelligent man, but put his own hearts desires before his common sense or logic. Which is really, really weird, seeing as when we see him in PS and onwards, he is very clever, logical and no longer it seems with much emotion. Obviously this changed when Lily died. Sad, but his own choosing.

Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

It's extremely sad for Snape seeing as JK has told us if he did ditch the dark arts, she may have grown to love him romantically.

The blame for this ever happening, was never Lily's. She tried and ignored it, made excuses for it until there was absolutely no more denying what Snape was going to be and what was in his subconscience as well, that she could no longer be associated with him. Snape's tragedy was his own choice, believeing that he could have the best of both worlds, shockingly naive, but sadly true.

I agree that Lily is somewhat judgemental in this, TGW. But I also think she has cause (and she is, after all, only 15). Her anger at Severus is more than justified: the 'Mudblood' insult is directly equivalent to any vicious racial slur that I can think of. The judgementalism is seen in the way she refuses to give him one last chance: I agree with that. But, then, that is what the whole conversation is about: I get the distinct impression that she's given him chances before, and this time he has truly blown it. It really is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Believe me, I feel for Sev. I feel sad for him that he lost such a good friend in Lily, a girl who could have led him to the Light (whether or not they would ever have become involved romantically) -- Lily stands for everything that he was actually turning his back on, at the time.

But he made his own choices, as much as Lily did. I think he had ample time to choose Lily over the Dark Side: they were friends for how long? He even has a chance here, as she stands outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor in her dressing gown, to refute her charge that he is becoming a Death Eater.

He doesn't.

Pearl Took absolutely brilliant in every way.

I missed that. :)

And if not in School, then they may have discussed theories in the holidays, where Lily would have seen this book IMO.

While I have no canon to prove this, I somehow think it may be a possibility.


I still think she should have given a choice to Snape and I am personally sure, he would have chosen Lily; but by that time, Lily was so sure about her opinions of Snape and his mind, that she broke off with him IMO.


I agree there is no canon on Snape and Lily sharing the book, there is canon and Harry and Ron working together at the same table and they don't share the book. The book is Advanced Potions, for use in 6th year, Lily and Snape had gone their seperate ways by then hadn't they

IMO Lily could have stood on her head, held her breath till she turned purple or begged on her knees and Snape would not have chosen her beliefs over his own belief that being a DE was the greatest thing since sliced cheese. He was intelligent but blind, just like LV was blind, deaf and dumb to the power that love could wield. IMO

I'm sorry, I really don't see why Lily would have to give Snape a blatant "it's me or them" choice at all. Snape isn't a child. He couldn't deny to Lily that he wanted to be a DE, he couldn't understand her dislike of the dark arts, despite them being best friends. It is here that the "Snape's tragedy" is his own making choice to ignore Lily's pleas over the years and believing that she would put up with it. At the very least, not bothering to try and understand where she is coming from, though as an outsider this is obvious.

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,avery if snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

Snape is an intelligent man, but put his own hearts desires before his common sense or logic. Which is really, really weird, seeing as when we see him in PS and onwards, he is very clever, logical and no longer it seems with much emotion. Obviously this changed when Lily died. Sad, but his own choosing.

Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

It's extremely sad for Snape seeing as JK has told us if he did ditch the dark arts, she may have grown to love him romantically.

The blame for this ever happening, was never Lily's. She tried and ignored it, made excuses for it until there was absolutely no more denying what Snape was going to be and what was in his subconscience as well, that she could no longer be associated with him. Snape's tragedy was his own choice, believeing that he could have the best of both worlds, shockingly naive, but sadly true.
:tu: Agree with everything you said.

eliza101
IMO Lily could have stood on her head, held her breath till she turned purple or begged on her knees and Snape would not have chosen her beliefs over his own belief that being a DE was the greatest thing since sliced cheese. He was intelligent but blind, just like LV was blind, deaf and dumb to the power that love could wield. IMO
That really made me laugh :lol: But I think it's very very true. There was nothing more Lily could have done really imo.

It was after the werewolf incident IMO that Lily started seeing Snape differently.

But was it the werewolf incident alone that changed her view on Snape? She tried to convince him to not be friends with Mulciber and Avery because they were "evil." I don't think that had anything to do with the werewolf incident, and I doubt her aversion the Dark Arts and Voldemort had anything to do with the werewolf incident either.

From the werewolf incident I think she started giving credibility to James and sirius's words about Snape, and subconciously started taking their opinions of Snape as the right one. That IMO was because she was falling for James or at least ahd a crush on him, and was awed by his *resue* of Snape from a monstor. She IMO did not know the full story because Sirius's part in that incident was not known to her, and Snape seemed to keep his mouth shut about the whole thing.

But why does her feelings about Snape being ungrateful for James saving his life mean that she changed her view on Snape? Lily yelled at James in front of twenty or so people and asked him what Snape ever did to him. She never condoned James behavior towards Snape at all, IMO. I can't see how the werewolf incident would have changed that. She said that James was just as bad as Snape (which I think was a bit of an exaggeration, but that's not the point :whistle:). I don't think Lily ever started to believe the same things about Snape that James did.

So, in Lily's eyes it was James's rescue of Snape without reason IMO. There was nothing involved except Snape being in danger IMO. From that time, I think she saw Snape differently, because HE refused to acknowldge James's actions. That angered her and slwoly over the next few months,

When did it make Lily angry? She called Snape ungrateful and that's it, IMO. I don't think she held resentment towards Snape only because of that. By the end of that memory, she makes it clear that she does not like the friends he has, not that he wasn't willing to recognize James' act of saving his life.

perhaps made her think of all that James and Sirius and her *friends* in Gryffindor said about Snape and perhaps let it influence her.

What did they believe that influenced her? She was already against the Dark Arts, Voldemort and pureblood supremacy. The only thing they didn't understand was why she was friends with him. I don't see how they could have influenced her on her view of Snape when they believed the same things were bad. She made excuses for him for years, but realized that she couldn't do that any longer once Snape called her a Mudblood.

I still think she should have given a choice to Snape and I am personally sure, he would have chosen Lily; but by that time, Lily was so sure about her opinions of Snape and his mind, that she broke off with him IMO.

But it wasn't her responsibility to get him to choose Lily over Snape. As I have said numerous times before, he easily could have dropped all of the stuff Lily hated (Mulciber and Avery, belief in pureblood supremacy, desire to be a Death Eater) for Lily, but he didn't. It isn't her fault that Snape never listened to her, it was only Snape's fault, IMO.

I agree there is no canon on Snape and Lily sharing the book, there is canon and Harry and Ron working together at the same table and they don't share the book. The book is Advanced Potions, for use in 6th year, Lily and Snape had gone their seperate ways by then hadn't they

That's a really good point :tu: I still think whoever that Lily would have known of it, but nothing much more than that, definately nothing to do with sectumsempra. I'm a bit sceptical as to whether Snape would have shown her the spells he invented though. I mean, she saw James using Levicorpus on Snape, surely if he helped invent them with Snape or Snape had shown her, she could have released him herself. I just reinforces my thinking that Snape kept his self inventing spells to himself. He may have used these to impress his fellow Slytherin DE wannabe mates, it would certainly be something that they would have been interested in.

:tu:Agree with everything you said.

Thanks, it's always nice to know others are in the same line of thought as ourself. :D

Snape is an intelligent man, but put his own hearts desires before his common sense or logic. Which is really, really weird, seeing as when we see him in PS and onwards, he is very clever, logical and no longer it seems with much emotion. Obviously this changed when Lily died. Sad, but his own choosing.

This is a very perceptive comment. :) There is a huge difference, IMO, between the cold, aloof thirtysomething Severus, who can lash people eloquently with his tongue, and the tongue-tied, socially awkward teenager who is getting ever more immersed in the Death Eater crowd.

I have often wondered why such an intelligent man could fall for the idiocy that was the pure-blood movement. But that in itself is a daft thing for me to wonder -- plenty of 'intelligent' people have gone along with morally reprehensible agendas, we need look no further than what happened in Germany during the 1930s.

And young Severus had a lot of influences in his background that would have made him susceptible to the Death Eater agenda: that prejudice against Muggles and Muggleborns had come from somewhere ... his mother, maybe?

It's extremely sad for Snape seeing as JK has told us if he did ditch the dark arts, she may have grown to love him romantically.

Yep. Quite. :(

But why does her feelings about Snape being ungrateful for James saving his life mean that she changed her view on Snape? Lily yelled at James in front of twenty or so people and asked him what Snape ever did to him. She never condoned James behavior towards Snape at all, IMO. I can't see how the werewolf incident would have changed that. She said that James was just as bad as Snape (which I think was a bit of an exaggeration, but that's not the point :whistle:). I don't think Lily ever started to believe the same things about Snape that James did.

(bolding mine) No, I don't think she did either, beatifically.

Unlike James :whistle: she was prepared to give Sev a chance. I'd say quite a few chances, actually, based on their final conversation in Gryffindor Tower. His tragedy is that he didn't take that chance when he could have done. :sigh:

Okay, not sure if I got this right, but your saying that Snape did not act as though everything he lived for was for Lily. Mainly because they were on different sides of the war, he was a double agent, he was respecting her wish to never have anything to do with him again (okay, the last is what I imagine he was feeling) and these are the reasons why his feelings for Lily weren't obvious. So, I agree :D

Not actually my point – but not an unreasonable thing to say, I guess.

Some people seem to have fairly set ideas about how someone acts if they are in love. However not everybody has learnt the same things about love, and the ways of reacting to love are very varied. It all depends on how we see love. And parental influences are one crucial factor in the formation of our relationship to love.

Imagine for example that your parent regularly shifts between being kind & loving to being harsh, dismissive &/or abusive – how would you act if you though someone loved you? A common response would be for an approach-avoidance conflict to develop because you want the good side of love but you’re also scared of getting badly hurt again. If this happens it might also be that you fear that you will act in this way if you love someone - if you think that's how people in love act, it's not an unreasonable extrapolation.

In a different scenario imagine a parent repeatedly acts as if their baby is draining overly demanding and is therefore rejecting of the baby. The child could then develop a deeply held belief that its need for love would be damaging to the person it loves. Working on this idea the best thing to do if you love someone is to reject them & never act on your love as it may destroy the person you love

In both these examples the outcome is not set – how we love is something we learn, but we learn it from many different sources. That said our relationships with our parents / primary caregivers form the foundation of our understanding and practice of love and so has a greater influence that factors we may encounter in out latter life.

That’s why I feel that the relationship Snape has with his parents & the relationship he sees between them is very important in understanding how he behaves – I personally think that Lily’s upbringing is far more satisfactory and her reactions are therefore more likely to be easily understood.

Sorry if that was a bit long winded :)

That’s why I feel that the relationship Snape has with his parents & the relationship he sees between them is very important in understanding how he behaves – I personally think that Lily’s upbringing is far more satisfactory and her reactions are therefore more likely to be easily understood.

I totally agree with this. :tu:

This is a very perceptive comment. :) There is a huge difference, IMO, between the cold, aloof thirtysomething Severus, who can lash people eloquently with his tongue, and the tongue-tied, socially awkward teenager who is getting ever more immersed in the Death Eater crowd.

I have often wondered why such an intelligent man could fall for the idiocy that was the pure-blood movement. But that in itself is a daft thing for me to wonder -- plenty of 'intelligent' people have gone along with morally reprehensible agendas, we need look no further than what happened in Germany during the 1930s.

And young Severus had a lot of influences in his background that would have made him susceptible to the Death Eater agenda: that prejudice against Muggles and Muggleborns had come from somewhere ... his mother, maybe?

I completely agree. He see his father wasn't exactly the nicest man in the world and from Lily's query to him as to whether his parents were still fighting, I totally understand why he had the view of muggles and muggleborns (excluding Lily of course). I guess, I'd probably lean towards how his father treated his mother. I have always pictured it as the same as Seamus' parents (mother didn't tell the father until it was too late), but I'm guessing as well that it was Snape's father who was the dominate one in their relationship as opposed to Seamus and that's were the prejudice was born.

I wasn't saying that he was unintelligent as a teenager, we know he valued knowledge over brute strength, but rather his emotions were more in the forefront I guess as opposed to the emotionally closed (except with Harry) man, was due to Lily dying.

I guess what I was trying to say was that when Lily died, maybe even when she just ended it with him, he let that part of him die, leaving him a cold and aloof. :)

Not actually my point – but not an unreasonable thing to say, I guess.

:lol: Oh well, at least we're not disagreeing :D

Some people seem to have fairly set ideas about how someone acts if they are in love. However not everybody has learnt the same things about love, and the ways of reacting to love are very varied. It all depends on how we see love. And parental influences are one crucial factor in the formation of our relationship to love.

Imagine for example that your parent regularly shifts between being kind & loving to being harsh, dismissive &/or abusive – how would you act if you though someone loved you? A common response would be for an approach-avoidance conflict to develop because you want the good side of love but you’re also scared of getting badly hurt again. If this happens it might also be that you fear that you will act in this way if you love someone - if you think that's how people in love act, it's not an unreasonable extrapolation.

In a different scenario imagine a parent repeatedly acts as if their baby is draining overly demanding and is therefore rejecting of the baby. The child could then develop a deeply held belief that its need for love would be damaging to the person it loves. Working on this idea the best thing to do if you love someone is to reject them & never act on your love as it may destroy the person you love

In both these examples the outcome is not set – how we love is something we learn, but we learn it from many different sources. That said our relationships with our parents / primary caregivers form the foundation of our understanding and practice of love and so has a greater influence that factors we may encounter in out latter life.

That’s why I feel that the relationship Snape has with his parents & the relationship he sees between them is very important in understanding how he behaves – I personally think that Lily’s upbringing is far more satisfactory and her reactions are therefore more likely to be easily understood.

Sorry if that was a bit long winded :)

In that case, i still agree with you. :D

Well I meant Lily may have known about most of the spells because it was written pretty openly; about helping Snape about the spells is also a possibility IMO. Lily IMO was knowledgable about the sectumsempra, but I don't know if she helped him create it; and her knowledge too, was because Snape had written those in the potions book which Lily surely must have seen IMO. And I was also sure, she would have asked questions and may have been interested.
It's possible that Lily could have seen the book, if Snape had been using it before 6th year. Seeing how they were both so good at Potions, I can see how they might have read ahead a bit. However, I really can't imagine Lily working with Snape to create a spell like Sectumsempra. That goes against everything that we know about Lily. Some of the other, less invasive/offensive spells, perhaps.

While sectumsempra is a nasty curse, is it a dark one? It seems to cut the body and since it was written *for enemies* Lily may or may not have also helped create it, because she had enemies too; in the DEs IMO.
Well, Snape himself calls it a dark curse. I just dont see Lily as the type who would want to maim/dismember/kill other students, future DEs or not. And Snape knew that about Lily, even if he didn't understnd it. I think that he would have wanted to keep her from learning that he'd created such dark spells.

Wasn't that in the movie only? And even if Sirius did, that doesn't mean he wasn't good at it (in fact I recall Mcgonnagal saying he was one of the cleverest students in his year).
Exactly. If they were good at whatever they did, as is said in the text, that would include Potions too. Considering that James detested the Darks Arts, I think that it's reasonable that he'd want to at least have the option of being an Auror, which would require a Potions NEWT.

I agree there is no canon on Snape and Lily sharing the book, there is canon and Harry and Ron working together at the same table and they don't share the book. The book is Advanced Potions, for use in 6th year, Lily and Snape had gone their seperate ways by then hadn't they
The curses in question were used by Snape (and James) at the end of their fifth year. Levicorpus was quite popular in their fifth year (HBP).

I don't think, however, that Snape and Lily worked together on their studies, other than Potions. Slytherins have Potions with Gryffindors till their OWL year, but no other classes. In fact, after the DADA OWL, we see Lily hanging out with her other friends, not Snape. If they'd been, say, revising together before, wouldn't they be at least comparing answers or something?

IMO Lily could have stood on her head, held her breath till she turned purple or begged on her knees and Snape would not have chosen her beliefs over his own belief that being a DE was the greatest thing since sliced cheese. He was intelligent but blind, just like LV was blind, deaf and dumb to the power that love could wield. IMO
Exactly. :tu:

The curses in question were used by Snape (and James) at the end of their fifth year. Levicorpus was quite popular in their fifth year (HBP).
:tu:

I can see why Levicorpus could be used as a joke spell, but something has tweaked my interest with Sectumsemstra. In SWM Snape uses it against James and cuts his cheek. So far so good. My interest is in who healed James' cheek. I cannot for the life of me see Snape doing this like he healed Malfoy in the bathroom. It is Dark Magic and we are told that such a spell leaves a scar. I may be wrong but I cannot recall any mention of James having such a scar. So if the cut could be healed by Madame Pomfroy it could be construed as not being Dark. I wonder if Snape was developing the spell in his 5th yr and perfected it in the 6th year when he wasn't around Lily and could work on his Dark projects without having to hide them from her. The cut on James cheek seems to have healed in such a manner that no one has bothered to mention to Harry that his father was badly cut in a hex confrontation with Snape. It is a little niggle but I do ponder on it.

I've heard that some people think that friends shouldn't ever give up on their friends, and that logic should be applied to Lily and Snape.

I have to disagree.

It isn't fair, IMO, to claim that true friends never give up on each other. People that are married get divorces all the time, and should the same logic be applied to them? And, it is really unfair to say that since there are people out there that have abusive friends. I don't think that any person should be forbidden to sever ties with someone who is abusing him or her in some manner. *

With that said, I do think that Lily was justified in her decision to break the friendship between herself and Snape. He was going down the wrong path and wasn't listening to her when she tried to tell him to stop doing it. She knew that he wasn't going to listen anytime soon and understood that she couldn't spend the rest of her life trying to convince Snape to change his ways, so she walked away from the friendship.

I am not implying that Lily was abused by Snape.

I've heard that some people think that friends shouldn't ever give up on their friends, and that logic should be applied to Lily and Snape. I agree. I beleive that any relationship can always be salvaged if both people want to make it work, however there are times when the only thing you can do is cut the person loose. Lily had made it clear in every way she could that she did not like the Dark Arts and was concerned about Sevs attraction to them. There was nothing more she could do. However she had not come into direct conflict with him until SWM. When Snape called Lily "Mudblood" he put himself on the opposing side to her. I think not only was Lily very hurt (I am reminded of how Harry felt about the Prince when he used Sectumsempra - like a pet had turned on him) but Snape had in that moment made a choice, albeit unconsciously. The conversation outside the Gryffindor common room gave him the chance to go back on that choice - to say that he would stop hanging out with Mulciber and Avery and that he didn't want to be a Death Eater. He had the oppportunity to see that he was setting himself on the opposing side to Lily and that she would get hurt by the people he was calling friends. Unfortunately he seemed to have a blind spot. I can understand in a way why he didn't want to give up his dream of being powerful. As far as he was concerned the DEs were his route to "being somebody" and if he gave that up I can see how he would think he would be a "nobody" and not good enough for Lily.

Honestly, I'm like this and that with Lily breaking off their friendship. :whistle: I read something over the weekend that swayed me a bit more in the Severus sympathy stakes. :p

I think I tend to forget that they were both only fifteen and that Severus was not actually a signed up Death Eater ... yet.

However: of course I think Lily had cause to be so terribly hurt by the racialist 'Mudblood' insult -- and angered and alarmed by Sev's attraction to the people who WOULD become Death Eaters, who were already calling other people of her birth Mudbloods.

When Snape called Lily "Mudblood" he put himself on the opposing side to her. I think not only was Lily very hurt (I am reminded of how Harry felt about the Prince when he used Sectumsempra - like a pet had turned on him) but Snape had in that moment made a choice, albeit unconsciously.

Yes, he had. He'd crossed over a line ... and sometimes when someone does that, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to find a way back. :(

As he knew.

I always find it moving that he virtually camped himself outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor Tower, waiting for Lily. That in itself says something ...

And when she does appear, she is so angry, so fed up and so harsh. Not that I blame the lass ... although she doesn't give him much of a chance, even now Severus has an opportunity to deny his attraction to the wannabe DEs and turn back from calling other people Mudbloods, not just Lily.

Ah, well. :( It's just a very sad story all round.

I can see why Levicorpus could be used as a joke spell, but something has tweaked my interest with Sectumsemstra. In SWM Snape uses it against James and cuts his cheek. So far so good. My interest is in who healed James' cheek. I cannot for the life of me see Snape doing this like he healed Malfoy in the bathroom. It is Dark Magic and we are told that such a spell leaves a scar. I may be wrong but I cannot recall any mention of James having such a scar. So if the cut could be healed by Madame Pomfroy it could be construed as not being Dark. I wonder if Snape was developing the spell in his 5th yr and perfected it in the 6th year when he wasn't around Lily and could work on his Dark projects without having to hide them from her. The cut on James cheek seems to have healed in such a manner that no one has bothered to mention to Harry that his father was badly cut in a hex confrontation with Snape. It is a little niggle but I do ponder on it.

Given that two among their number were the brightest students in Hogwarts at the time, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Sirius who did it, if not James himself (or even Remus).
Truthfully, I find the whole Snape-Lily friendship breaking up sad, but also on some level inevitable. The encounter outside the Gryffindor common room post-SWM only served to confirm that for me: I can't blame Lily for taking serious objection to the slur cast against her by a person she'd thought of as a friend, but it certainly wasn't the only reason why they stopped being friends- the way I saw it, she'd been putting up a sustained objection to his links with Death Eaters and what they represented for people like her, and the M-word was just the straw that broke the camel's back. And perhaps it wasn't even the fact that he said it to her, but that he'd gone to a point where he could throw it out like that in the first place.
As for Snape, IMO he understood very well that it was wrong- which was why he tried so hard to apologise to Lily, but I don't think that he understood, at that point of time, that if it wasn't ok to say it to her, it wasn't ok to say it to anyone else either. That, I think, was something that came with age.

I can see why Levicorpus could be used as a joke spell, but something has tweaked my interest with Sectumsemstra. In SWM Snape uses it against James and cuts his cheek. So far so good. My interest is in who healed James' cheek. I cannot for the life of me see Snape doing this like he healed Malfoy in the bathroom. It is Dark Magic and we are told that such a spell leaves a scar.
Snape directs Malfoy to take dittany to avoid the scarring. In DH, we see Hermione using dittany too, to heal Ron after the splnching. Dittany was a common remedy for poisoning and such, thought to have been used by wild animals to heal themselves. So, I'd say that the chances of Madam Pomfrey not knowing the uses of it are quite slim. IMO, Lily would also have known of Dittany, being so talented at Potions.

I wonder if Snape was developing the spell in his 5th yr and perfected it in the 6th year when he wasn't around Lily and could work on his Dark projects without having to hide them from her.
I can see how that would work. "Note to self: Need to work on Sectumsempra. Bleeding stops too soon, cuts too shallow" :lol:

I can see how that would work. "Note to self: Need to work on Sectumsempra. Bleeding stops too soon, cuts too shallow" :lol:

Hehehe

I disagree. Snape seems to be making an active effort to not dominate Lily. The words he lets slip, like "I won't let you" and even "filthy little mudblood" demonstrate his dominant nature. Later on, we see Lily pleading with him to listen, while he simply laughs it off. I just don't see how that comes across as Snape being submissive. Most importantly, Snape genuinely enjoys being in a position of power, being dominant. IMO, Snape is highly uncomfortable when he doesn't have control of a situation (Sirius's escape in PoA) and thus, I can't really see him relinquishing control unless persuaded to.

:tu: I really do agree with you. I think Snape would really want to be the domninant one in a romantic relationship. Snape seems pretty big on power and control. If the other person was naturally submissive, he would just assume the dominant role. But if the other person was also a dominating person, like Lily, I imagine he would be at ends trying to be the domninant one would but not trying to anger or push away the other person.