Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

:tu: I really do agree with you. I think Snape would really want to be the domninant one in a romantic relationship. Snape seems pretty big on power and control. If the other person was naturally submissive, he would just assume the dominant role. But if the other person was also a dominating person, like Lily, I imagine he would be at ends trying to be the domninant one would but not trying to anger or push away the other person.

See... I'm not sure how to word what I'm trying to say, so if it doesn't make sense let me know. I think it's like a natural instinct to be in control for him, like instances when he said things like "I won't let you..." and stuff, but I'm not sure that something he consciously does or wants to do. I think that it would make him uncomfortable to not be the one in charge, but I do think that if he had the choice, he would rather be uncomfortable than upset Lily.

:tu: I really do agree with you. I think Snape would really want to be the domninant one in a romantic relationship. Snape seems pretty big on power and control. If the other person was naturally submissive, he would just assume the dominant role. But if the other person was also a dominating person, like Lily, I imagine he would be at ends trying to be the domninant one would but not trying to anger or push away the other person.
I think that sums it up perfectly PerfectDystopia :) I agree that he did seem to be struggling to not become dominant over Lily. I certainly got that impression after "I won't let you!".

See... I'm not sure how to word what I'm trying to say, so if it doesn't make sense let me know. I think it's like a natural instinct to be in control for him, like instances when he said things like "I won't let you..." and stuff, but I'm not sure that something he consciously does or wants to do. I think that it would make him uncomfortable to not be the one in charge, but I do think that if he had the choice, he would rather be uncomfortable than upset Lily.

I think I understand what you said. I'm not holding it against Snape that he would prefer to the dominant one, and I agree that desire would proabably be natural. Snape as a child was powerless against his father and Snape was powerless against James and Sirius. It is totally understandable (and maybe expected) that Snape would want some kind of control over something in his life. I'm not antagonizing Snape, what I am trying to say is that because Snape and Lily were dominating people, there would be a lot clashing and struggling to be the dominate one in the relationship. With the whole "he would rather be uncomfortable than upset Lily" thing, I think it depends on the situation. I think if Snape thought something wasn't worth fighting about, he would let Lily win or try to move away from the fight. If it was something urgent (probably something involving James or Lily threatening to leave Snape) I would think Snape would fight and try to get control of the situation.

See... I'm not sure how to word what I'm trying to say, so if it doesn't make sense let me know. I think it's like a natural instinct to be in control for him, like instances when he said things like "I won't let you..." and stuff, but I'm not sure that something he consciously does or wants to do. I think that it would make him uncomfortable to not be the one in charge, but I do think that if he had the choice, he would rather be uncomfortable than upset Lily.
I agree and it did make sense. Snape did seem like he wanted control(good thing he became headmaster). He wanted what was best for Lily. He wanted to try and charm her and win her over, but not control her. He never wanted to hurt or upsest her. What I don't understand is why did he call her a mudblood if he wanted her as his girlfriend and didn't want to upset her. Oh my gosh this is making me want to see HBP more and more. The confusion of the relationship between Lily and Snape is overwelming. The bad thing is I don't think it was HBP that had the scenes of Lily and Snape as kids and teenagers. I think it was DH that had those scenes. I could be wrong though.

I think I understand what you said. I'm not holding it against Snape that he would prefer to the dominant one, and I agree that desire would proabably be natural. Snape as a child was powerless against his father and Snape was powerless against James and Sirius. It is totally understandable (and maybe expected) that Snape would want some kind of control over something in his life. I'm not antagonizing Snape, what I am trying to say is that because Snape and Lily were dominating people, there would be a lot clashing and struggling to be the dominate one in the relationship. With the whole "he would rather be uncomfortable than upset Lily" thing, I think it depends on the situation. I think if Snape thought something wasn't worth fighting about, he would let Lily win or try to move away from the fight. If it was something urgent (probably something involving James or Lily threatening to leave Snape) I would think Snape would fight and try to get control of the situation.

I understand, but like in that very situation, once he saw that she took offence to his choice of words he softened a bit and changed the course of his argument in a way he hoped would upset her. At least that was my take on the scene. He was more pleading than ordering after that.

I agree and it did make sense. Snape did seem like he wanted control(good thing he became headmaster). He wanted what was best for Lily. He wanted to try and charm her and win her over, but not control her. He never wanted to hurt or upsest her. What I don't understand is why did he call her a mudblood if he wanted her as his girlfriend and didn't want to upset her. Oh my gosh this is making me want to see HBP more and more. The confusion of the relationship between Lily and Snape is overwelming. The bad thing is I don't think it was HBP that had the scenes of Lily and Snape as kids and teenagers. I think it was DH that had those scenes. I could be wrong though.

It was DH. There was a bit of it in OOTP, but the scene got cut down in the movie.

Anyway, yes, I understand. I think the reason he said that was because he already knew he was losing her to James. They were flirting (yes, they were arguing, but flirting nonetheless) right in front of him. You say terrible things when you're that hurt.

I understand, but like in that very situation, once he saw that she took offence to his choice of words he softened a bit and changed the course of his argument in a way he hoped would upset her. At least that was my take on the scene. He was more pleading than ordering after that.

He became pleading after she got mad, but that's because she got mad when she took his statement as dominating. If Lily didn't get mad, I do think he would have continued to say something alone the lines of "I won't let you." When Lily challenged his move of dominance, I think he decided it wasn't a battle worth fighting and then tried to justify his statement. I noticed he didn't even retract it.

I really do agree with you. I think Snape would really want to be the domninant one in a romantic relationship. Snape seems pretty big on power and control. If the other person was naturally submissive, he would just assume the dominant role. But if the other person was also a dominating person, like Lily, I imagine he would be at ends trying to be the domninant one would but not trying to anger or push away the other person.
Exactly. Snape would never be truly comfortable around Lily, because he'd be constantly trying not to offend her.

See... I'm not sure how to word what I'm trying to say, so if it doesn't make sense let me know. I think it's like a natural instinct to be in control for him, like instances when he said things like "I won't let you..." and stuff, but I'm not sure that something he consciously does or wants to do.
IMO, it is something that he consciously wants to do, but is forced to compromise, because of Lily's nature. He has to wear this mask of submissiveness when he is dealing with Lily, and he doesn't like it. It's not natural to him, because it's not his nature.

However, he doesn't seem to be doing a really good job of it. He can't bring himself to fully listen and consider what Lily tells him, for one thing. Brushing off her warnings, downplaying her concerns, switching topics when the discussion does not go his way, and such. It gives the impression that he considers Lily to be beneath him, as a naive person whose opinion he doesn't value. I think that Lily had to have noticed it too, and become increasingly frustrated by his behaviour.

I think that it would make him uncomfortable to not be the one in charge, but I do think that if he had the choice, he would rather be uncomfortable than upset Lily.
I agree. Snape wouldn't like it, but he'd do it. But, it would also depend on whether he could get away with it, IMO. For example, he doesn't seem to mind that Lily is offended by his choice in friends or his interest in the dark arts, because Lily is not angry with him. She's pleading with him, and he prefers to brush it off. However, when she's angry about the 'let me' comment, he immediately backtracks.

IMO, it is something that he consciously wants to do, but is forced to compromise, because of Lily's nature. He has to wear this mask of submissiveness when he is dealing with Lily, and he doesn't like it. It's not natural to him, because it's not his nature.
I think that it is something that comes naturally to him, so in that sense I would say that his desire to control is sub-conscious. I agree he doesn't seem to be comfortable being submissive. This helps ne to see how Lily and James were more of a couple than Lily and Severus, because I think that James was happy to fit in with other people - we see in SWM that Sirius is bored so James finds somehting to entertain him - he's letting Sirius call the shots. So I see James as being more submissive than Severus.

IMO, it is something that he consciously wants to do, but is forced to compromise, because of Lily's nature. He has to wear this mask of submissiveness when he is dealing with Lily, and he doesn't like it. It's not natural to him, because it's not his nature.

However, he doesn't seem to be doing a really good job of it. He can't bring himself to fully listen and consider what Lily tells him, for one thing. Brushing off her warnings, downplaying her concerns, switching topics when the discussion does not go his way, and such. It gives the impression that he considers Lily to be beneath him, as a naive person whose opinion he doesn't value. I think that Lily had to have noticed it too, and become increasingly frustrated by his behaviour.

JKR said that while Snape sought to be impressive and a part of something powerful and big, he was also insecure and vulnerable (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007). I agree that Snape appeared to want control and acted aggressively, but I feel his vulnerability and insecurity would hamper his ability to do so effectively. Imo, that is why he would back down or become upset to the point of incoherency when challenged by Lily (DH-TPT).

JKR also said that Snape "wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater." (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007). So that might help explain Snape's behavior because Snape did not take the time to understand Lily's aversion, but instead brushed her thoughts aside; his fascination for the dark side blinding him to what she was saying. According to JKR's statement, my understanding was that Snape felt that if he became an impressive Death Eater, all of Lily's issues with him would resolve themselves.

According to JKR's statement, my understanding was that Snape felt that if he became an impressive Death Eater, all of Lily's issues with him would resolve themselves.

My big problem with this is that frankly I find this hard to square with the incisively intelligent adult Snape we see in canon. :whistle:

He thought Lily Evans would approve of his becoming a Death Eater? What, the same Death Eaters who were targetting Muggleborns like herself? What planet was he on?

But this is TEENAGE Snape we are talking about here, and I presume that Rowling is too. :whistle: Deluded teenage Snape has quite some way to go before his dark illusions are well and truly shattered.

Here's another thought: maybe Lily's final rejection of him was the thing that sealed, or at least aided, his decision to join the DEs. :( He'd lost her anyway, so what did it matter?

Don't, for heaven's sake, misunderstand me here. In no way am I implying that would have been Lily's fault. Snape's choices were his own.

I agree. Snape wouldn't like it, but he'd do it. But, it would also depend on whether he could get away with it, IMO. For example, he doesn't seem to mind that Lily is offended by his choice in friends or his interest in the dark arts, because Lily is not angry with him. She's pleading with him, and he prefers to brush it off. However, when she's angry about the 'let me' comment, he immediately backtracks.

I think that's because he sees her anger the way his anger is. What I mean is, when she is seriously offended by something, her first reaction is to be upset and plead, and the anger comes as a second resort. For him, what's natural is to become angry rather than sad, and so he sees anger as seriousness.

My big problem with this is that frankly I find this hard to square with the incisively intelligent adult Snape we see in canon. :whistle:

He thought Lily Evans would approve of his becoming a Death Eater? What, the same Death Eaters who were targetting Muggleborns like herself? What planet was he on?

But this is TEENAGE Snape we are talking about here, and I presume that Rowling is too. :whistle: Deluded teenage Snape has quite some way to go before his dark illusions are well and truly shattered.

Here's another thought: maybe Lily's final rejection of him was the thing that sealed, or at least aided, his decision to join the DEs. :( He'd lost her anyway, so what did it matter?

Don't, for heaven's sake, misunderstand me here. In no way am I implying that would have been Lily's fault. Snape's choices were his own.

Exactly, it is all about the teenage Snape not the rational adult one. Snape is at this point very into making an impression and that is what he thinks he is doing by joining the DE's. I agree that it isn't Lily's fault either ( I know that wasn't what you meant) but it was possibly her final rejection of him that solidified his choices.

Here's another thought: maybe Lily's final rejection of him was the thing that sealed, or at least aided, his decision to join the DEs. :( He'd lost her anyway, so what did it matter?

And what else did he have? This is definitely part of how I think about it.

My big problem with this is that frankly I find this hard to square with the incisively intelligent adult Snape we see in canon. :whistle:

He thought Lily Evans would approve of his becoming a Death Eater? What, the same Death Eaters who were targetting Muggleborns like herself? What planet was he on?

But this is TEENAGE Snape we are talking about here, and I presume that Rowling is too. :whistle: Deluded teenage Snape has quite some way to go before his dark illusions are well and truly shattered.

Here's another thought: maybe Lily's final rejection of him was the thing that sealed, or at least aided, his decision to join the DEs. :( He'd lost her anyway, so what did it matter?

Don't, for heaven's sake, misunderstand me here. In no way am I implying that would have been Lily's fault. Snape's choices were his own.

I agree. JKR was speaking about Snape and Lily's friendship, so she was referring to the 15 year old Snape - and later the slightly older Snape who actually joined up with the DEs, imo.

I understood the portion of JKR's statement "[Snape] never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater" (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007) to mean that Snape had already solidified his decision to become a Death Eater because he was blinded by his fascination with the dark side and figured that Lily's problem (which he didn't understand) would be resolved when he became an impressive Death Eater.

In my opinion, Snape might have re-thought his decision to join Voldemort after the break up of their friendship because if one of his reasons for joining was that he wanted to impress Lily, he might wonder if that was still feasible. But JKR also added that it was a personal goal of Snape's to be a part of something big, powerful and impressive because he was vulnerable and insecure (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007). So Snape had a reason beyond wanting to impress Lily for wishing to join the Death Eaters; it was in line with his personal goal and his fascination with the dark side, imo.

I understood the portion of JKR's statement "[Snape] never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater" (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007) to mean that Snape had already solidified his decision to become a Death Eater because he was blinded by his fascination with the dark side and figured that Lily's problem (which he didn't understand) would be resolved when he became an impressive Death Eater.


Imo, Snape's decision wasn't quite solid at that point. I tend to think he was only just begining his explorations of the DE's and how they could further his penchant for the dark arts. I think while Lily still cared about him, there was still hope for him to turn that all down but when she rejected him, there was no where else for Snape to go but to the DE's, thus solidifying his position.

Exactly, it is all about the teenage Snape not the rational adult one. Snape is at this point very into making an impression and that is what he thinks he is doing by joining the DE's. I agree that it isn't Lily's fault either ( I know that wasn't what you meant) but it was possibly her final rejection of him that solidified his choices.
I think this is where Severus had a huge disadvantage compared to James. We see that Severus basically seems to give up with Lily after the conversation with her outside Gryffindor common room. At least that is the impression I get from the canon we have. Snape's upbringing left him with very low self-esteem and very little self confidence, so when Lily left him at the portrait hole he seemed to think that that was it. I think James however is brimming with confidence and will not give up - he is very persistent, but I think that is down to his confidence.

And what else did he have? This is definitely part of how I think about it.

Yes, quite, Zara ... it all helps to explain the dark trajectory which his life takes. :(

In my opinion, Snape might have re-thought his decision to join Voldemort after the break up of their friendship because if one of his reasons for joining was that he wanted to impress Lily, he might wonder if that was still feasible. But JKR also added that it was a personal goal of Snape's to be a part of something big, powerful and impressive because he was vulnerable and insecure (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007). So Snape had a reason beyond wanting to impress Lily for wishing to join the Death Eaters; it was in line with his personal goal and his fascination with the dark side, imo.

I agree with this too, WWB. I think it helps explain the enormous disconnect in Teenage Snape's mind between joining a racist gang which targets 'Mudbloods' and his deep feelings for Lily Evans, who is ... um ... a 'Mudblood'.

Once he'd lost Lily, though, who (rightfully) challenged him on his growing allegiance to the dark side, then there was nothing left in his life except the power and attraction of the wannabe Death Eaters ... IMO.

I think this is where Severus had a huge disadvantage compared to James. We see that Severus basically seems to give up with Lily after the conversation with her outside Gryffindor common room. At least that is the impression I get from the canon we have. Snape's upbringing left him with very low self-esteem and very little self confidence, so when Lily left him at the portrait hole he seemed to think that that was it. I think James however is brimming with confidence and will not give up - he is very persistent, but I think that is down to his confidence.

I totally agree. :tu:

I think this is where Severus had a huge disadvantage compared to James. We see that Severus basically seems to give up with Lily after the conversation with her outside Gryffindor common room. At least that is the impression I get from the canon we have. Snape's upbringing left him with very low self-esteem and very little self confidence, so when Lily left him at the portrait hole he seemed to think that that was it. I think James however is brimming with confidence and will not give up - he is very persistent, but I think that is down to his confidence.
I don't see how James could have had much confidence after that rejection.. I think he seemed pretty upset and wouldn't want to try again for a long time soon.

I wonder if Snape's problem was he was confident that he could become a death eater - he was good at dark arts, he was able to create dark spells and use them against people, he believed in what they were fighting for imo - and knew that it was something he could do. It would have been so easy to get Lily if she would be impressed by that and maybe he convinced himself that would be the case. He couldn't become the top Quidditch player in the school, or most popular guy, but he could become a death eater and I think he was confident he could and really wanted to believe Lily would be impressed by it because he could do it.

I dunno... I'm rambling I bit, but I wanted to spit the idea out - hope it makes sense :p

I think this is where Severus had a huge disadvantage compared to James. We see that Severus basically seems to give up with Lily after the conversation with her outside Gryffindor common room. At least that is the impression I get from the canon we have. Snape's upbringing left him with very low self-esteem and very little self confidence, so when Lily left him at the portrait hole he seemed to think that that was it. I think James however is brimming with confidence and will not give up - he is very persistent, but I think that is down to his confidence.

I agree! I can just see Snape putting up walls and walking away from it all. I don't think he has any fight in him. He just doesn't seem the type to me. That is most definitely a disadvantage to him. James is a go getter... although I wonder if Snape did persist would it have made a difference to the situation?

Returning to the topic of Snape and Lily, I think she was well capable of making her snubs very, very definite- James does, as DeliciousMoon says, look shaken by her vehemence in SWM, and if anything she was even angrier with Snape outside the portrait hole, IMO. It's no surprise that he took it as what it was meant to be- the end of any relationship or possible relationship between the two of them. It's easy to imagine him throwing himself into DE-related, Voldemort-supporting activities more than ever after this, given that the teenage Snape clearly didn't realise that this was the very thing that'd driven Lily away from him.

The only things I saw in canon that they shared, was magic, and a talent in potions. And a talent in potions doesn't even mean Lily liked the subject. But correct me if I'm missing something else :)

You keep saying that, but I really wish, for my benefit, what interests they had in common you see from canon :) This is one reason I find the Lily and Snape friendship so puzzling; I do not see them having very much in common.

The thing is that with this relationship we do not need to read between the lines to know what kind of relationship Lily & Snape have, we are told; they are good friends, he would like them to be more but that never happens. It is true that this friendship ended, but it was neither short nor unimportant to either party. We may not be told much about the friendship but the fact that we are directly told what it is, means that it is very reasonable to assume the normal things that happened between friends also happen in this case.

It is not like say the relationship between McGonagall & Dumbledore, or that between Bellatix & Voldemort; here we are not told so we must read between the lines and assumptions without cannon to base them on are tenuous. I feel that maybe you are looking for evidence to back up the fact that Snape & Lily were friends. Where as others are accepting that fact because they’ve been told that it is a fact; basically it is cannon – I may however be wrong about that and if you feel I do you a disservice I apologise whole heartedly.

However I have also listed some excerpts & some of my thinking about them. :)

Magic – both were dealing with magic in a basically muggle world, although Sev did have some contact with the ww – Snape was the only person Lily could do magic around without any ‘strange’ reactions, and who was as captivated by it as she was. They also talked about it, shared hopes & fears about magic.

“It is real, isn’t it?”
“It real for us” said Snape. “Not for her. But we’ll get the letter, you and me.”
“Really?” whispered Lily
“Definitely” said Snape

To me that scene sounds very intimate -

Family – they talked about their families with the other

“How are things at your house?” Lily asked
A little crease appeared between his eyes.
“Fine” he said.
“They’re not arguing anymore?”
“Oh, yes, they’re arguing”

There is also an implication that Lily & Snape discussed Lily’s family, Tuney especially.

“Severus saw the envelope, and couldn’t believe a muggle could have contacted Hogwarts,”

Snape knew Lily – they may have had very different views on dark magic but in other ways Snape did know Lily - certainly well enough to cheer her out of an awful mood. Look at their first train ride to Hogwarts. Snape very quickly starts to brighten the mood Tuney has left her in.

We know that both took and excelled at Potions – this information is also a link between them, but you’re right we don’t hear a huge amount about them in cannon as friends, because most of the people who know about it either aren’t there to tell us, didn’t understand it in the first place – or more commonly; both. This doesn’t mean that the reasons don’t exist just that they are not relevant to the plot – after all we are happy to accept that Lily had friends of her own but how may could we name?

It was DH. There was a bit of it in OOTP, but the scene got cut down in the movie.

Anyway, yes, I understand. I think the reason he said that was because he already knew he was losing her to James. They were flirting (yes, they were arguing, but flirting nonetheless) right in front of him. You say terrible things when you're that hurt.
Since I have never had a romance before I can not say what flirting is, but how were Lily and Snape flirting in that part?

It's just so sad! I like James, but I really would have liked to see Snape and Lily together as a couple. At least when Snape died he got to see Lily again even though James is there too. I'm sure they worked out their issues though.

Since I have never had a romance before I can not say what flirting is, but how were Lily and Snape flirting in that part?

It's just so sad! I like James, but I really would have liked to see Snape and Lily together as a couple. At least when Snape died he got to see Lily again even though James is there too. I'm sure they worked out their issues though.

I believe the suggestion is that Lily and James were flirting in that scene, a far more supportable contention, since Lily did not say a word to Snape until after he made the Mudblood comment to James.

We know that both took and excelled at Potions – this information is also a link between them, but you’re right we don’t hear a huge amount about them in cannon as friends, because most of the people who know about it either aren’t there to tell us, didn’t understand it in the first place – or more commonly; both. This doesn’t mean that the reasons don’t exist just that they are not relevant to the plot – after all we are happy to accept that Lily had friends of her own but how may could we name?

Awesome post :tu:

I believe the suggestion is that Lily and James were flirting in that scene, a far more supportable contention, since Lily did not say a word to Snape until after he made the Mudblood comment to James.
Woops! I misunderstood RWeasleysgirl then. Sorry!

I feel that maybe you are looking for evidence to back up the fact that Snape & Lily were friends. Where as others are accepting that fact because they’ve been told that it is a fact; basically it is cannon – I may however be wrong about that and if you feel I do you a disservice I apologise whole heartedly.

As a person who is confused by the friendship between them, I am not doubting that they are friends. It's clear that they are, but I'm doubting that they're as close as they claimed they were.

Magic – both were dealing with magic in a basically muggle world, although Sev did have some contact with the ww – Snape was the only person Lily could do magic around without any ‘strange’ reactions, and who was as captivated by it as she was. They also talked about it, shared hopes & fears about magic.

“It is real, isn’t it?”
“It real for us” said Snape. “Not for her. But we’ll get the letter, you and me.”
“Really?” whispered Lily
“Definitely” said Snape

To me that scene sounds very intimate -

Family – they talked about their families with the other

“How are things at your house?” Lily asked
A little crease appeared between his eyes.
“Fine” he said.
“They’re not arguing anymore?”
“Oh, yes, they’re arguing”

There is also an implication that Lily & Snape discussed Lily’s family, Tuney especially.

“Severus saw the envelope, and couldn’t believe a muggle could have contacted Hogwarts,”

Snape knew Lily – they may have had very different views on dark magic but in other ways Snape did know Lily - certainly well enough to cheer her out of an awful mood. Look at their first train ride to Hogwarts. Snape very quickly starts to brighten the mood Tuney has left her in.

That's all very true, but IMO it is still difficult to see their similarities with the information you provided. They still had morals that were completely different from each other's. There's a bit more depth that comes with being a best friend, and their conversations don't hold much value to me in examining their friendship. Yes, Lily loved Snape as a friend, but I still feel that the "best friend" comment was more of a label than the truth.

The thing is that with this relationship we do not need to read between the lines to know what kind of relationship Lily & Snape have, we are told; they are good friends, he would like them to be more but that never happens. It is true that this friendship ended, but it was neither short nor unimportant to either party. We may not be told much about the friendship but the fact that we are directly told what it is, means that it is very reasonable to assume the normal things that happened between friends also happen in this case.
We are told they are best friends, but we are never shown "best friends" IMO. IMO, we were shown a relationship between two people that were such polar opposites, they could even not be in a scene together that did not end in arguing. Of course I realise that wasn't the point of TPT - to show what good friends they were, but we are not shown anything positive about their relationship imo, which is why I have so much trouble believing it. When it was stated they were "best friends" it definitely seemed more like a label than anything else to me.

beatifically
They still had morals that were completely different from each other's. There's a bit more depth that comes with being a best friend, and their conversations don't hold much value to me in examining their friendship. Yes, Lily loved Snape as a friend, but I still feel that the "best friend" comment was more of a label than the truth.
I think so too :agree:

I believe people can be friends regardless of how different they are. The fact that they did stay friends for 5 years after being sorted into different Houses and moving in different circles is overwhelming evidence for me.

About the morals issue...
I do think that two people with different morals can be friends, maybe even best friends. But I think that can only happen if the two people are not concerned with the other's morals. So that's where Lily and Snape's friendship falls flat for me. If Lily was apathetic towards Snape's like of Dark Magic and dream of becoming a Death Eater, then I think there would a good chance the friendship could continue. Yet, the Lily that was shown in canon is concerned about Snape's like of Dark Magic and dream of becoming a Death Eater. Morals may not be important to all friendships, but it was important in Snape's and Lily's friendship, because moral were something Lily cared about.

I don't know. I don't think it can apply to everyone. My best friend holds morals I consider horrible (she tends to be extremely selfish and loathes charity and any kind of help between people; she would mock people for theri adversaries and misfortunes, etc.), yet I love her to death and I would never break it off with her because she's horrible to innocent people who don't deserve it. I know she would never turn this attitude towards me - because I, in being her friend, am special to her. Just like she is special to me, even if I find this behaviour very bad in general. Unlikable people need and have friends too. She is who she is and I love her regardless of everything, because that's the meaning of unconditional love, which in turn is the essence of friendship, in my opinion.

I believe the problem between Severus and Lily wasn't entirely based on morals, it was personal too. They didn't seem to be able to communicate properly. And of course there is the fact that Severus did turn his attitude, which Lily disapproved so much of, towards her in the end.

I don't know. I don't think it can apply to everyone. My best friend holds morals I consider horrible (she tends to be extremely selfish and loathes charity and any kind of help between people; she would mock people for theri adversaries and misfortunes, etc.), yet I love her to death and I would never break it off with her because she's horrible to innocent people who don't deserve it. I know she would never turn this attitude towards me - because I, in being her friend, am special to her. Just like she is special to me, even if I find this behaviour very bad in general. Unlikable people need and have friends too. She is who she is and I love her regardless of everything, because that's the meaning of unconditional love, which in turn is the essence of friendship, in my opinion.

That is what I trying to say. :) You say your friend has horrible morals, but you love her anyways. You love her what she is. But the point I was trying to make is, Lily can't accept Snape's morals and love him for what he is. Lily can't be like you. Snape's morals are like a roadblock in their friendship because she concerns herself with them.

I believe the problem between Severus and Lily wasn't entirely based on morals, it was personal too. They didn't seem to be able to communicate properly. And of course there is the fact that Severus did turn his attitude, which Lily disapproved so much of, towards her in the end.
I also agree that their problems weren't just about morals, they had personal issues too.

That is what I trying to say. :) You say your friend has horrible morals, but you love her anyways. You love her what she is. But the point I was trying to make is, Lily can't accept Snape's morals and love him for what he is. Lily can't be like you. Snape's morals are like a roadblock in their friendship because she concerns herself with them.

Yes, I agree about that.

Well, while I agree about the whole "unconditional love" thing, I disagree about the issue here with Snape and Lily. The problem was not that they stopped loving each other, (obviously not, look at the state Snape was still in decades later) the problem was that Snape made some decisions that pulled him away from Lily. She could not have been his friend without turning to the same lifestyle in that situation, and she was not willing to do that. Snape did not foresee that she would have to make that choice (or else he thought he was losing her to James anyway) and he made the wrong decision. It wasn't a question of whether they loved each other, it was all about where their lives were going.

Well, while I agree about the whole "unconditional love" thing, I disagree about the issue here with Snape and Lily. The problem was not that they stopped loving each other, (obviously not, look at the state Snape was still in decades later) the problem was that Snape made some decisions that pulled him away from Lily. She could not have been his friend without turning to the same lifestyle in that situation, and she was not willing to do that. Snape did not foresee that she would have to make that choice (or else he thought he was losing her to James anyway) and he made the wrong decision. It wasn't a question of whether they loved each other, it was all about where their lives were going.

I didn't mean to suggest they stopped loving each other, my example was merely to illustarte why people can be friends despite disapproving of each other's morals.

Well, while I agree about the whole "unconditional love" thing, I disagree about the issue here with Snape and Lily. The problem was not that they stopped loving each other, (obviously not, look at the state Snape was still in decades later) the problem was that Snape made some decisions that pulled him away from Lily. She could not have been his friend without turning to the same lifestyle in that situation, and she was not willing to do that. Snape did not foresee that she would have to make that choice (or else he thought he was losing her to James anyway) and he made the wrong decision. It wasn't a question of whether they loved each other, it was all about where their lives were going.

Snape and Lily always had a choice to where their lives were going. But for the choices Snape, I think Lily stopped loving him.

I know she would never turn this attitude towards me -This is where the Snape/Lily relationship fell down. Lily didn't like the dark Arts as her friend did, but it didn't bother her too much until it became personal. First we see Lily complaining about what Mulciber abd Avery were doing to Mary McDonald, then we see Snape make it totally personal by calling her Mudblood. The point to me is that Snape became so obsessed with the Dark Arts and with becoming a DE that he forgot what he really valued in his heart. This is common in real life too - ambitious men/women who end up destroying their marriage because they are so focussed on their career; or people who become addicted to something like alcohol or gambling which leads them to lie and cheat and hurt the people closest to them. To outsiders it doesn't make any sense for the person to through away their relationships in this way.

I think Lily stopped loving him.
I don't agree with this. I don't think Lily stopped loving him - I think she saw that his obsession with the Dark Arts had made him turn on even her. He had hurt her very deeply and she needed reassurance that he wouldn't do it again - reassurance that he couldn't give because he still wanted to be a DE.

I can't imagine Lily stopped loving Snape. It was a very deep friendship, it would take a lot to destroy any feelings at all. A single slur is not enough to do that, and I don't think all the bad choices in the world could have really done it. The point is that they had choices and Snape made the wrong ones. At that point, Lily had no choice. Whether she loved him or not, she couldn't make him make the right decision, and she could not abandon her own morals for him.

About the morals issue...
I do think that two people with different morals can be friends, maybe even best friends. But I think that can only happen if the two people are not concerned with the other's morals. So that's where Lily and Snape's friendship falls flat for me. If Lily was apathetic towards Snape's like of Dark Magic and dream of becoming a Death Eater, then I think there would a good chance the friendship could continue. Yet, the Lily that was shown in canon is concerned about Snape's like of Dark Magic and dream of becoming a Death Eater. Morals may not be important to all friendships, but it was important in Snape's and Lily's friendship, because moral were something Lily cared about.

Bold mine

That's a great point Perfect. :)

Thinking on those lines, I'd say that perhaps their friendship fell apart because Lily could not accept Snape for what he was, when his attraction got him to start hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, and she may have concluded that he too was going to be like them. That's what she says the night of the SWM, where she calls on his friendship with the wannabe DEs and says that she knows that he too, wants to become one too.

That may have been the reason why she never gave him a choice; because she had already assumed he had chosen; not realizing that for her, he would have left everything IMO.

I still think Lily knew about his dark arts attraction and even addiction, one reason IMO that Snape was so blind to her changing attitude. He never guessed that his dark arts would put her off, because IMO he knew that she knew about it.

He could not have hidden it from her, simply because they were together at School and together at home for five years until Lily broke off with him.

And even in TPT she told him off for hanging out with people who are evil; who did evil things to Mary McDonald. That was her main objection IMO. And when she thought in her mind that she would go their way, she broke off with him IMo.

Originally Posted by Latisha
I'm sorry, I really don't see why Lily would have to give Snape a blatant "it's me or them" choice at all. Snape isn't a child. He couldn't deny to Lily that he wanted to be a DE, he couldn't understand her dislike of the dark arts, despite them being best friends. It is here that the "Snape's tragedy" is his own making choice to ignore Lily's pleas over the years and believing that she would put up with it. At the very least, not bothering to try and understand where she is coming from, though as an outsider this is obvious.

J.K. Rowling and the Live Chat, Bloomsbury.com, July 30, 2007 (2.00-3.00pm BST).Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,avery if snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.


Snape is an intelligent man, but put his own hearts desires before his common sense or logic. Which is really, really weird, seeing as when we see him in PS and onwards, he is very clever, logical and no longer it seems with much emotion. Obviously this changed when Lily died. Sad, but his own choosing.

J.K. Rowling and the Live Chat, Bloomsbury.com, July 30, 2007 (2.00-3.00pm BST).Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.


It's extremely sad for Snape seeing as JK has told us if he did ditch the dark arts, she may have grown to love him romantically.

The blame for this ever happening, was never Lily's. She tried and ignored it, made excuses for it until there was absolutely no more denying what Snape was going to be and what was in his subconscience as well, that she could no longer be associated with him. Snape's tragedy was his own choice, believeing that he could have the best of both worlds, shockingly naive, but sadly true.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Bold mine

That's a great point Perfect. :)

Thinking on those lines, I'd say that perhaps their friendship fell apart because Lily could not accept Snape for what he was, when his attraction got him to start hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, and she may have concluded that he too was going to be like them. That's what she says the night of the SWM, where she calls on his friendship with the wannabe DEs and says that she knows that he too, wants to become one too.

That may have been the reason why she never gave him a choice; because she had already assumed he had chosen; not realizing that for her, he would have left everything IMO.

I still think Lily knew about his dark arts attraction and even addiction, one reason IMO that Snape was so blind to her changing attitude. He never guessed that his dark arts would put her off, because IMO he knew that she knew about it.

He could not have hidden it from her, simply because they were together at School and together at home for five years until Lily broke off with him.

And even in TPT she told him off for hanging out with people who are evil; who did evil things to Mary McDonald. That was her main objection IMO. And when she thought in her mind that she would go their way, she broke off with him IMo.


:no: If that were true then they would have stopped being friends long before they did. They stopped being friends when Snape called Lily a mudblood. In Lily's eyes that must have seemed like him choosing the Death Eater side over her, and she was a seperate side. It was not just something that she disagreed with, it was something that was directly against her. When he said that, it was proof of that. Of course, we know that he only said it out of anger, but in her mind it was that final push showing her that he didn't care about her anymore, his prejudice was stronger than his love. Which really wasn't true, in my opinion.

I believe people can be friends regardless of how different they are. The fact that they did stay friends for 5 years after being sorted into different Houses and moving in different circles is overwhelming evidence for me.

Okay, before I answered this, I just want to say that I don't disagree that they were friends. My problem is that from what is shown I can't see how they could be considered best friends. The scenes showed them to be at odds with one another.

I agree with you a bit. I think friends that are completely different can be friends. But then sometimes when people are different conflicts arise, which I believe is the case with Snape and Lily. I don't agree, however, that their long friendship is proof because, IMO, friendship isn't measured by years. Peter was friends with the Marauders for ten years and he still betrayed them.

I don't know. I don't think it can apply to everyone. My best friend holds morals I consider horrible (she tends to be extremely selfish and loathes charity and any kind of help between people; she would mock people for theri adversaries and misfortunes, etc.), yet I love her to death and I would never break it off with her because she's horrible to innocent people who don't deserve it. I know she would never turn this attitude towards me - because I, in being her friend, am special to her. Just like she is special to me, even if I find this behaviour very bad in general. Unlikable people need and have friends too. She is who she is and I love her regardless of everything, because that's the meaning of unconditional love, which in turn is the essence of friendship, in my opinion.

That is unconditional love. But, while I don't like any of the things you listed either, they are not as severe to me as others. I find things like murder, sexism and oppression to be things I am opposed to, and I feel more strongly about those issues more than the ones you listed. I think that was the same with Lily and Snape. Pureblood supremacy, the Dark Arts and Voldemort were all things that Lily was firmly against, especially since people like her were subject to torture and murder. I think that's where the difference in morals is a detriment to a friendship. If it's a huge moral conflict, then the friendship would usually fall apart.

I believe the problem between Severus and Lily wasn't entirely based on morals, it was personal too. They didn't seem to be able to communicate properly. And of course there is the fact that Severus did turn his attitude, which Lily disapproved so much of, towards her in the end.

That's exactly what I think. :tu:

:no: If that were true then they would have stopped being friends long before they did. They stopped being friends when Snape called Lily a mudblood. In Lily's eyes that must have seemed like him choosing the Death Eater side over her, and she was a seperate side. It was not just something that she disagreed with, it was something that was directly against her. When he said that, it was proof of that. Of course, we know that he only said it out of anger, but in her mind it was that final push showing her that he didn't care about her anymore, his prejudice was stronger than his love. Which really wasn't true, in my opinion.

Snape was the person who introduced her to the world of magic. He told her everything about the magical world until they went to Hogwarts. I think Snape must have been attracted to the dark arts for quite sometime before the break up. And I also think Lily would have seen his potions book, advanced though it may have been, and also seen the spells he had worked out on the side. Snape at that time would not have had any reason to conceal his fascination for the dark arts from her and I don't think he would have been able to either, because they were together almost all the time. He may have even proudly showed off his spells he had created to her.

Lily disapproved of Snape hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. I don't think she mentions about his dark arts addiction or practise being wrong. But in their fifth year I think several things happened simultaneously. Lily fell for James; the werewolf incident happened; Snape began hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and Lily started seeing James and Snape differently; James romantically and Snape, I think she started moving away from.

The SWM where Snape calls her a mudblood is what I think Lily uses to stop her friendship with Snape, because in her mind she has already concluded that he had chosen his way, and beause she concluded so, she never gave him a choice. Had she done so, I think Snape would have chosen her.

On that night, Snape was not allowed to speak IMO; Lily came, accused and walked away. I don't think she even stepped out of the portrait hole to talk to him. Before Snape could even begin to understand what was happening, I think Lily had already said her piece and left.

True, but that does not dispute anything that I said.

:no: If that were true then they would have stopped being friends long before they did.

I took this line to mean that you felt Lily would not have known about Snape's dark arts addiction, and hence the long post explaining why I felt she did. My mistake. :)

I took this line to mean that you felt Lily would not have known about Snape's dark arts addiction, and hence the long post explaining why I felt she did. My mistake. :)

Oh, no, I only meant that I believed she was willing to tolerate it, but eventually he took it too far. :)

Oh, no, I only meant that I believed she was willing to tolerate it, but eventually he took it too far. :)
I think at first she didn't want to believe it, and pretended that his obsession didn't exist and tried to focus on other things when she was hanging out with him. But eventually that was all she could see, and she couldn't pretend anymore. I don't think she could see the good in Snape anymore in fifth year.

Oh, no, I only meant that I believed she was willing to tolerate it, but eventually he took it too far. :)

I don't think he went too far at that time. He was only hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. That's Lily's main complaint. Not that Snape was doing horrible stuff. Even the night of the SWM, she says that she knows he wants to become a DE (that's in the future and not at that time) and so she see's no point in being friends with him. What I did not like about that was, she never allowed him to say his piece, to say he was going to join the DEs or no, he would leave all that, if it meant being with her. She never gave him a choice but took a decision to break off and did it that night IMO.

I think at first she didn't want to believe it, and pretended that his obsession didn't exist and tried to focus on other things when she was hanging out with him. But eventually that was all she could see, and she couldn't pretend anymore. I don't think she could see the good in Snape anymore in fifth year.

That much I disagree with. I don't believe Lily to have been in denial, I think she just wasn't aware of the extent of his obsession, or the seriousness, until later on. As for not seeing the good in him, I don't believe that either. I think she only realized that if this lifestyle was influencing him enough to turn on even his best friend, then there would be no turning back from there, and she had no choice but to end the friendship.

I don't think he went too far at that time. He was only hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. That's Lily's main complaint. Not that Snape was doing horrible stuff. Even the night of the SWM, she says that she knows he wants to become a DE (that's in the future and not at that time) and so she see's no point in being friends with him. What I did not like about that was, she never allowed him to say his piece, to say he was going to join the DEs or no, he would leave all that, if it meant being with her. She never gave him a choice but took a decision to break off and did it that night IMO.

Again, I meant at the point when their friendship officially ended; when he used the m word against her. It proved to her satisfaction that even she was not important to him anymore, IMO. Honestly, I think she did give him the chance. She called him a death eater, and he did not respond, and she noted that he had not even denied it, and so it must be true. Snape did not believe that his choice between the dark arts or no dark arts was directly correlated with his choice between Lily or no Lily, I think he was a bit in denial that it was so important to her, so he wouldn't have said that he would quit for her. I don't think he really believed she was asking him too, even if she was practically stating it.

That much I disagree with. I don't believe Lily to have been in denial, I think she just wasn't aware of the extent of his obsession, or the seriousness, until later on. As for not seeing the good in him, I don't believe that either. I think she only realized that if this lifestyle was influencing him enough to turn on even his best friend, then there would be no turning back from there, and she had no choice but to end the friendship.
That is how I interpreted Lily's "I can't pretend anymore!" statement. I still stand by it :)

As for the "could not see the good in him" statement, even if she did, I think she still couldn't see how on earth Snape could turn back to the good side. I think she knew he was so far deep into the dark arts, that there was nothing she could do to change him, so she backed off, because she was not happy being in a relationship with a future death eater.

That is how I interpreted Lily's "I can't pretend anymore!" statement. I still stand by it :)

As for the "could not see the good in him" statement, even if she did, I think she still couldn't see how on earth Snape could turn back to the good side. I think she knew he was so far deep into the dark arts, that there was nothing she could do to change him, so she backed off, because she was not happy being in a relationship with a future death eater.

Well, they weren't really in a relationship, but that aside...

That's kind of what I'm saying. He took a step too far, and she couldn't reach him to pull him back, and he just wasn't turning around. Besides, though, once he chose that side she did not even have a choice. She couldn't be with him; the things the DE stood for was everything she was. I don't believe she gave up on him so much as she believed that he had turned on her.

She called him a death eater, and he did not respond, and she noted that he had not even denied it, and so it must be true.

In that scene I thought Snape was bewildered and shocked; I think he just could not believe what he was hearing; he had come to sincerely apologize for the horrible word he had used (he had been prepared to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room all night), but I think he was shocked when Lily broke off their friendship. That was something he did not expect and something he was not prepared to hear, when he went to apologize. I think he was so shocked by what she spoke, that he was bereft of words IMO. What she said was something he had IMO not expected at all. All the more reason Lily should have spoken to Snape alone and then broken it off; certainly not in front of the whole Gryffindor House IMO and I don't know, I feel very uncomfortable with they way they broke up. :)

In that scene I thought Snape was bewildered and shocked; I think he just could not believe what he was hearing; he had come to sincerely apologize for the horrible word he had used (he had been prepared to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room all night), but I think he was shocked when Lily broke off their friendship. That was something he did not expect and something he was not prepared to hear, when he went to apologize. I think he was so shocked by what she spoke, that he was bereft of words IMO. What she said was something he had IMO not expected at all. All the more reason Lily should have spoken to Snape alone and then broken it off; certainly not in front of the whole Gryffindor House IMO and I don't know, I feel very uncomfortable with they way they broke up. :)

I also believe that he was shocked, but that's not why he didn't answer. We know he was planning to be a DE, that's why he didn't answer, IMO. At that point he had already lost her, so any revelation later that he was losing her because of the dark arts would have been too late, and obviously he had not realized it before that point.

Well, they weren't really in a relationship, but that aside...
A friendship is a relationship, is it not?

In that scene I thought Snape was bewildered and shocked; I think he just could not believe what he was hearing; he had come to sincerely apologize for the horrible word he had used (he had been prepared to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room all night), but I think he was shocked when Lily broke off their friendship. That was something he did not expect and something he was not prepared to hear, when he went to apologize. I think he was so shocked by what she spoke, that he was bereft of words IMO. What she said was something he had IMO not expected at all. All the more reason Lily should have spoken to Snape alone and then broken it off; certainly not in front of the whole Gryffindor House IMO and I don't know, I feel very uncomfortable with they way they broke up. :)
I don't think Snape was expecting Lily to end the friendship, but I do not think he could have been too surprised about what she was saying about him becoming a death eater, because she had expressed concerns about dark magic and his friends before, unless he was just really bad at listening to her before. But that's not Lily's fault.

I also think that Snape was at a complete loss of words, but I think part of the reason was he didn't know what to say, not just because he was shocked. Because what Lily was saying about him was true, and I think he knew it. The only thing he could have attempted imo was lying to her about his aspirations, and at that point, I don't think Lily was going to believe him.

I also believe that he was shocked, but that's not why he didn't answer. We know he was planning to be a DE, that's why he didn't answer, IMO. At that point he had already lost her, so any revelation later that he was losing her because of the dark arts would have been too late, and obviously he had not realized it before that point.

Well, I like to think this way. I know Snape was not a death eater at that time. He became only one later, in the future. That night had Lily tackled things differently, had given Snape a choice, two things could have happened IMO. One, Snape wuld not have left his goal of being a DE or he would have thrown it all away and chosen Lily. I think he would have chosen her (he did in the future, throwing his DEship for her and stayed away even after she died), but sadly I think that choice was not given to him. It was not Lily breaking up with Snape, but the way she did it; that IMO could have been better.

I don't believe Lily to have been in denial, I think she just wasn't aware of the extent of his obsession, or the seriousness, until later on. As for not seeing the good in him, I don't believe that either. I think she only realized that if this lifestyle was influencing him enough to turn on even his best friend, then there would be no turning back from there, and she had no choice but to end the friendship.

I agree with you. :) And I also, like you, disagree that Lily could not see any good in Snape anymore -- she is practically the only person we ever see who accepts Severus for who he is, which to me at least says a lot for their original friendship. But she was very angry, and very hurt (and possibly alarmed, too) by the Mudblood insult. It was a real turning point ... and whatever we think of the way Lily handled it, or could have handled it, it wasn't something superficial ...

... as Severus himself knew. :(

Again, I meant at the point when their friendship officially ended; when he used the m word against her. It proved to her satisfaction that even she was not important to him anymore, IMO. Honestly, I think she did give him the chance. She called him a death eater, and he did not respond, and she noted that he had not even denied it, and so it must be true. Snape did not believe that his choice between the dark arts or no dark arts was directly correlated with his choice between Lily or no Lily, I think he was a bit in denial that it was so important to her, so he wouldn't have said that he would quit for her. I don't think he really believed she was asking him too, even if she was practically stating it.

Again, I agree with you. Teenage Sev is in denial here, IMO: there is a big disconnect in his mind between the Muggleborn targetting of his dubious mates in Slytherin, and his deep feelings for Lily ... herself a Muggleborn.

In that scene I thought Snape was bewildered and shocked; I think he just could not believe what he was hearing; he had come to sincerely apologize for the horrible word he had used (he had been prepared to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room all night), but I think he was shocked when Lily broke off their friendship. That was something he did not expect and something he was not prepared to hear, when he went to apologize. I think he was so shocked by what she spoke, that he was bereft of words IMO. What she said was something he had IMO not expected at all. All the more reason Lily should have spoken to Snape alone and then broken it off; certainly not in front of the whole Gryffindor House IMO and I don't know, I feel very uncomfortable with they way they broke up. :)

But they were alone, weren't they, TGW? I mean, they have this conversation late at night, outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor Tower. It's only the two of them. I've been assuming that ever since I read that scene ...

:)

But they were alone, weren't they, TGW? I mean, they have this conversation late at night, outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor Tower. It's only the two of them. I've been assuming that ever since I read that scene ...:)

Yes, the canon explicitly states that Lily was standing in front of the portrait which means the entrance was closed so their conversation was private. It was Snape who spoke publicly when he called Lily a Mudblood before a crowd and imo, that added humiliation to the other feelings Lily had about Snape making the comment.

Analysing this scene a little further; imo, after SWM, Lily was very upset and her friends would attempt to be there for her. Lily mentioned during her final conversation with Snape that she'd been making excuses to her friends for years and she was finished pretending (DH-TPT). Imo, her friends would have given her an earful that day because Snape's inappropriate behavior had been aimed at Lily directly when she was attempting to defend him.

So imo, Lily came out of the portrait hole and into that conversation finally having accepted the fact that she had been allowing the friendship to continue under the pretense that Snape would change, and also buffeted with resolve by her earlier conversations.

In that scene I thought Snape was bewildered and shocked; I think he just could not believe what he was hearing; he had come to sincerely apologize for the horrible word he had used (he had been prepared to sleep in front of the Gryffindor common room all night), but I think he was shocked when Lily broke off their friendship. That was something he did not expect and something he was not prepared to hear, when he went to apologize. I think he was so shocked by what she spoke, that he was bereft of words IMO. What she said was something he had IMO not expected at all. All the more reason Lily should have spoken to Snape alone and then broken it off; certainly not in front of the whole Gryffindor House IMO and I don't know, I feel very uncomfortable with they way they broke up. :)

As sad as this scene was, it was one of my favorites. I always wonder what could have been. I agree so much with you that Snape was stunned. I do not think he saw it coming at all. I think he counted on Lily to always be there for him and when she wasn't he did not know what to do. There are so many things that could have been done differently at this moment... First, I wish that Lily never let go. I wanted her to try harder really give him an ultimatum. I wanted her to save him and accept him in that moment because I just felt so badly for Snape. Don't get me wrong, I know he did wrong but still I just wish it had gone differently. Also for Snape, I always hoped/wished that he would have told her his true feelings... I always wanted him to respond when she asks why she is different. I always thought had he said that he was in love with her he could have saved at least the friendship. Knowing Lily, had Snape revealed his feelings I think her heart would have gone out to him. I don't think she would have been able to walk away even though she was angry with him... just my opinion I know but... I can't help thinking it could have all been different.

First, I wish that Lily never let go. I wanted her to try harder really give him an ultimatum.
I don't think Lily would have wanted Snape to choose her at that point if she had given him more of an ultimatum. She didn't want to be associated with him anymore imo; his choice wouldn't have mattered imo, because she didn't want him in her life anymore. IMO, in the fight outside the portrait hole, all Lily wanted to do was get rid of him. I think she was through giving him any more second chances.

Also for Snape, I always hoped/wished that he would have told her his true feelings... I always wanted him to respond when she asks why she is different.
I don't think Lily would have accepted the answer, "You're different than all the other Mudbloods because I love you!".

Also for Snape, I always hoped/wished that he would have told her his true feelings... I always wanted him to respond when she asks why she is different. I always thought had he said that he was in love with her he could have saved at least the friendship. Knowing Lily, had Snape revealed his feelings I think her heart would have gone out to him. I don't think she would have been able to walk away even though she was angry with him... just my opinion I know but... I can't help thinking it could have all been different.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Personally, thank goodness that Snape didn't tell Lily he loved her. I think it would make the whole situation worse. He hangs out with pre-Death Eaters, calls her a "mudblood", and then stands outside the Gryffindor common room (I maybe the only person who thinks that wasn't sweet. I think that was a bit creepy.) with only a measly "sorry" and can't even defend himself against her accusations. Would saying, "Because I luuurrvee yooouuu!" make anything better? If Snape said that, I would imagine Lily would say, "So you called me a mudblood but now you are saying I am different because... you love me? Wow, don't I feel special!" I really don't think Snape telling Lily how he felt would change her mind. To me, she seemed pretty dead set that the friendship was ending right there and now.

(By the way, I was just listening to "Paint It Black" by the Rolling Stones. That song basically screams how Snape must have felt after Lily died.)

Like I said, it was clearly all in my head :D I just wish that Snape had another chance somehow. Perhaps you are right, maybe Lily would have rejected him anyway but... I don't know. I don't think I could have... But what I would do and what Lily would do is very different I suppose. Again I wish we had more backstory. I would really love to see how Snape goes from her best friend to this thing that she feels she has to push away. Was it really that bad or was Lily just fed up and sick of trying. Was she too young to really hold on to a difficult friend like that? I don't know...

Was it really that bad or was Lily just fed up and sick of trying. Was she too young to really hold on to a difficult friend like that? I don't know...

Imo, from Lily's point of view, she saw Snape calling people Mudblood (expressing prejudice against those of Lily's birth), he was interested in the dark arts and invented dark arts curses, he hung around friends that were into the budding Death Eater movement and used dark magic to enact pranks which Snape felt was just a laugh, he too was planning to become a death eater - and he didn't want to discuss it. That is all from Lily's point of view based on DH TPT in memory #5 and the final conversation. Imo it was really that bad - for the HP Universe, it was as bad as one could get because the things Snape was doing were considered evil, not just delinquent behavior (Lily herself made this distinction in the memories). The group Lily believed he was planning to join were killing, kidnapping, torturing and maiming people, especially muggleborns (like her) and muggles.

An interesting ancilliary notion is that Lily's previous friendship with Snape may have assisted her later in one way. JKR indicated that James and Lily spent time successfully convincing others not to join the Death Eaters when they got older. Maybe it was James' fresh outlook combined with Lily's previous knowledge of dealing with that situation that made their efforts successful.

That also brings up another point. You can't ask 15 year old kids to successfully turn people away from Voldemort when they are in the process of making the decision, but it is too bad that Dumbledore didn't have someone older come to Hogwarts and help some of the kids like Snape, Avery, Regulus and Mulciber in the way that James and Lily were able to help others later.

Well, I like to think this way. I know Snape was not a death eater at that time. He became only one later, in the future. That night had Lily tackled things differently, had given Snape a choice, two things could have happened IMO. One, Snape wuld not have left his goal of being a DE or he would have thrown it all away and chosen Lily. I think he would have chosen her (he did in the future, throwing his DEship for her and stayed away even after she died), but sadly I think that choice was not given to him. It was not Lily breaking up with Snape, but the way she did it; that IMO could have been better.

Well, teenage Snape hadn't fully grasped the idea that this was an issue that was so important to Lily. And Lily wasn't giving him a choice outside the portrait hole- she was telling him what her choice was. IMO she owed him nothing after what he'd done (a fair hearing in response to being called the magical equivalent of a racist slur? I think that's asking a little too much of a sixteen-year-old girl), and her reaction was understandable considering that they'd disagreed on such issues before, and he'd brushed it aside. I'd have been very surprised if her reaction was conciliatory or even calm rather than furious- it would have been entirely out of character for her. And as for choices, I really don't think that Snape's decision to join the Death Eaters was his only possible option after Lily stopped speaking to him- he did have the choice of turning to the good side even without her (as he did a few years later), but I don't think he understood that that choice existed. Making Snape's moral compass entirely dependent on one person is just a little troublesome, IMO- he might have done it all for Lily, but there was inherent goodness in him, too- he just didn't dig deep enough for it as a teenager, I think.

Well, I like to think this way. I know Snape was not a death eater at that time. He became only one later, in the future. That night had Lily tackled things differently, had given Snape a choice, two things could have happened IMO. One, Snape wuld not have left his goal of being a DE or he would have thrown it all away and chosen Lily. I think he would have chosen her (he did in the future, throwing his DEship for her and stayed away even after she died), but sadly I think that choice was not given to him. It was not Lily breaking up with Snape, but the way she did it; that IMO could have been better.

I think she did give him a choice, over and over again, but she did not want to use those words, because once she did then there was no turning back, she could not be friends with him if he gave the wrong answer which, deep down, I think she had an inkling she would. Snape was a teenager, a boy, and I would doubt strongly that he thought to analyze her meaning the way she was hoping he would.

First, I wish that Lily never let go. I wanted her to try harder really give him an ultimatum.

Me too. :sad:, but by that time I think she was no longer interested.

I wanted her to save him and accept him in that moment because I just felt so badly for Snape. Don't get me wrong, I know he did wrong but still I just wish it had gone differently. Also for Snape, I always hoped/wished that he would have told her his true feelings... I always wanted him to respond when she asks why she is different. I always thought had he said that he was in love with her he could have saved at least the friendship. Knowing Lily, had Snape revealed his feelings I think her heart would have gone out to him. I don't think she would have been able to walk away even though she was angry with him... just my opinion I know but... I can't help thinking it could have all been different.

:tu: :sad:

I don't think Lily would have accepted the answer, "You're different than all the other Mudbloods because I love you!".

Contrary to most posters here, I really do not think that the mudblood remark was the last straw or was the reason Lily was unable to mend her differences with Snape. Because Lily had known that Snape had been calling others mudblood. That was a dirty swear word, but a swear word as far as Snape was concerned and Lily knew it too IMO. She had, starting at the time of the werewolf prank, decided to move away from Snape and decided a little later to break off with him IMO. I think she used the SWM to do so. And because she had already decided to break off from Snape, I think she refused to give Snape a choice or an ultimatum or sit him down and talk to him about his choice of words.

Friends, if they are very close ones, would IMO forgive a lot. I think Snape and Lily were like that too. And Lily knew everything of Snape IMO, from his dark arts addiction to his penchant for calling all muggleborns *mudblood*. That was not IMO the problem. The problem was I think she started seeing Snape as a Slytherin and a future DE. Was this because of her *friends* (I don't know if she had any close ones apart from Snape) or because she was falling for James and subconciously took his opinion of Snape and made it hers, I don't know (I vote for the latter, though), but I think the Lily started breaking away from after the werewolf incident and that was made known to Snape after the SWM IMO.

but it is too bad that Dumbledore didn't have someone older come to Hogwarts and help some of the kids like Snape, Avery, Regulus and Mulciber in the way that James and Lily were able to help others later.

:tu:

Slytherin House unfortunately was pushed aside from before Dumbledore's period. That took away the hope of all those who could have been saved IMO.

Well, teenage Snape hadn't fully grasped the idea that this was an issue that was so important to Lily. And Lily wasn't giving him a choice outside the portrait hole- she was telling him what her choice was. IMO she owed him nothing after what he'd done (a fair hearing in response to being called the magical equivalent of a racist slur? I think that's asking a little too much of a sixteen-year-old girl), and her reaction was understandable considering that they'd disagreed on such issues before, and he'd brushed it aside. I'd have been very surprised if her reaction was conciliatory or even calm rather than furious- it would have been entirely out of character for her.

That is a great point. Lily was telling him her choice; not giving him one. I think so too. It was information she was giving him that she was no longer interested.

But I would not agree about the racial slur. I have already made my points above, and the racial slur was what Snape was calling every other muggleborn; Lily was still best friends with hm. I actually hope she did not break it off because he called her one; that would make her look bad; it would make her look as if she was okay if Snape called others names, but not her. I hope she was better than that, I think she was too. (I initially believed that she broke off because of the slur as well and also thought very badly of her because of that.) I think it was something more than this, only she used this to break it off IMO.

And as for choices, I really don't think that Snape's decision to join the Death Eaters was his only possible option after Lily stopped speaking to him- he did have the choice of turning to the good side even without her (as he did a few years later), but I don't think he understood that that choice existed. Making Snape's moral compass entirely dependent on one person is just a little troublesome, IMO- he might have done it all for Lily, but there was inherent goodness in him, too- he just didn't dig deep enough for it as a teenager, I think.

Snape had been accepted only by Lily (that was complete and that was an acceptance for his sake) and he had a partial acceptance because of his brilliance with the Slytherins, who wanted to use him IMO. Snape, otherwise does not seem to be a part of any group and nor does he seem to be welcome and accepted anywhere else. Lily had broken off with him. I don't think he would have been able to break off with the other group, unless Lily gave him another chance. She did not and I think that would and did make Snape cling more to Avery and Mulciber.

I think she did give him a choice, over and over again, but she did not want to use those words, because once she did then there was no turning back, she could not be friends with him if he gave the wrong answer which, deep down, I think she had an inkling she would. Snape was a teenager, a boy, and I would doubt strongly that he thought to analyze her meaning the way she was hoping he would.

But since she was breaking up with him, anyway she could have given him a choice I felt. That way the responsibility of keeping or breaking the friendship would be mutual and not unilateral IMO.

Oh! and Pearl! I may have made a mistake about Lily standing in front of Gryffindor House. I always thought she was speaking in front of those who were there at the time. And I don't have my books to check. :)

(By the way, I was just listening to "Paint It Black" by the Rolling Stones. That song basically screams how Snape must have felt after Lily died.)I always think of Snape when I hear that song!

I wanted her to try harder really give him an ultimatum. I wanted her to save him and accept him in that moment because I just felt so badly for Snape.
I always feel uncomforatble with ultimatums. My view is that a person has to make their own choices, so while you can tell them you do not like their behaviour and use this to open up a dialogue, to give them an ultimatum is like emotional blackmail and could even be considered controlling. But you see this is where I think that the relationship fell down - because Lily isn't controlling and is not one to issue ultimatums, but I think the door was always open for Snape if he changed. However Snape is quite controlling and given his background (his parents fighting but staying together) he would have expected Lily to give him an ultimatum if she really had a problem with his behaviour. When she walks away he is as others have said stunned - it is not what he was expecting - not what his experience has taught him to expect. He seems to see the break-up as final. I don't think he realised that Lily might have come around if he had given up his DE ambitions. In this sense Severus is the polar opposite of James who never stops trying to get Lily to go out with him even though she says she'd rather go out with the giant squid; with Severus though after this argument with Lily he just seems to give up. All My Opinion :)

Friends, if they are very close ones, would IMO forgive a lot. I think Snape and Lily were like that too. And Lily knew everything of Snape IMO, from his dark arts addiction to his penchant for calling all muggleborns *mudblood*. That was not IMO the problem. The problem was I think she started seeing Snape as a Slytherin and a future DE. Was this because of her *friends* (I don't know if she had any close ones apart from Snape) or because she was falling for James and subconciously took his opinion of Snape and made it hers, I don't know (I vote for the latter, though), but I think the Lily started breaking away from after the werewolf incident and that was made known to Snape after the SWM IMO.

I do agree with you in part; I don't believe that Snape calling Lily a Mudblood caused her to end the friendship in and of itself. I believe it was that combined with all of the other reasons she gave.

Imo, when Lily said she couldn't pretend anymore, she was referring to the fact that she had tried to convince herself that Snape was not really interested in dark arts or acts; didn't really hold prejudice, etc., and was only doing it because of the friends he was hanging around. However, Snape really was fascinated with dark arts and acts according to JKR and Lily finally accepted it as true. In addition, when he called her a filthy little Mudblood, imo, from Lily's point of view, she understood then that Snape wasn't just mimicking his friends because if he was, he would never have said it to her, so she accepted that he held prejudice against muggleborns, but had made an exception for her. Upon acceptance of these things, she no longer wanted the friendship, imo.

Imo, all of the above was never okay with Lily, but she had talked herself into believing that Snape would change because he wasn't really the person he appeared to be.

Slytherin House unfortunately was pushed aside from before Dumbledore's period. That took away the hope of all those who could have been saved IMO.

I would disagree it was Slytherin house, but rather the budding Death Eaters in that house and any other house that were considering joining Voldemort. JKR mentioned that people from other houses joined as well.

But since she was breaking up with him, anyway she could have given him a choice I felt. That way the responsibility of keeping or breaking the friendship would be mutual and not unilateral IMO.

Imo, that would have made the responsibility all Snape's. But Lily took responsibility for her own life; she didn't want to be friendly with a person who was into dark arts and acts and who held blood prejudice notions. Imo, she tried to convince herself that Snape wasn't like that - not really - but then she finally had to admit to herself he was. Snape confirmed that in SWM because he used a dark arts curse and he had expressed prejudice toward her. Finally, he confirmed that he planned to join Voldemort (in her view) when they had their final talk.

Me too. :sad:, but by that time I think she was no longer interested.

So true :(



Contrary to most posters here, I really do not think that the mudblood remark was the last straw or was the reason Lily was unable to mend her differences with Snape. Because Lily had known that Snape had been calling others mudblood. That was a dirty swear word, but a swear word as far as Snape was concerned and Lily knew it too IMO. She had, starting at the time of the werewolf prank, decided to move away from Snape and decided a little later to break off with him IMO. I think she used the SWM to do so. And because she had already decided to break off from Snape, I think she refused to give Snape a choice or an ultimatum or sit him down and talk to him about his choice of words.I think you are right. However sad it may be, I think you are right that Lily was done. It is entirely possible that she was fed up with all the antics and the changes and everything Snape has fallen into. So perhaps this was just the incident she needed to finally make the push and get rid of him entirely. :(

Friends, if they are very close ones, would IMO forgive a lot. I think Snape and Lily were like that too. And Lily knew everything of Snape IMO, from his dark arts addiction to his penchant for calling all muggleborns *mudblood*. That was not IMO the problem. The problem was I think she started seeing Snape as a Slytherin and a future DE. Was this because of her *friends* (I don't know if she had any close ones apart from Snape) or because she was falling for James and subconciously took his opinion of Snape and made it hers, I don't know (I vote for the latter, though), but I think the Lily started breaking away from after the werewolf incident and that was made known to Snape after the SWM IMO.

As far as why she started moving away from Snape... I think she saw him traveling down a dark path and when he would not listen, chose to move away from him. As awful as this all is, I don't see any other reasons for her to want to end the friendship. It had to be the differences between them.

As far as why she started moving away from Snape... I think she saw him traveling down a dark path and when he would not listen, chose to move away from him. As awful as this all is, I don't see any other reasons for her to want to end the friendship. It had to be the differences between them.


Not necessarily. They could have just drifted away, without the help of Snape's fascination on the Dark Arts repelling her away. People do grow out of friends. IMO, it is natural to do that sometimes. Not everyone keeps childhood friends.

But since she was breaking up with him, anyway she could have given him a choice I felt. That way the responsibility of keeping or breaking the friendship would be mutual and not unilateral IMO.


No, I mean on several occasions. We saw some memories pre-SWM (at least one that I can recall) where she was telling him she didn't like the choices he was making.

First, I wish that Lily never let go. I wanted her to try harder really give him an ultimatum. I wanted her to save him and accept him in that moment because I just felt so badly for Snape.

I know how you feel, but I can't help but disagree. There are people out there that get divorces because one person in the couple is using narcotics or is an alocholic. I wouldn't agree that the other person should continue trying to convince the spouse to stop doing that after he/she tries to, and instead move on. It's not the same thing, but that's how I feel like when it comes to the friendship between Lily and Snape.

Knowing Lily, had Snape revealed his feelings I think her heart would have gone out to him. I don't think she would have been able to walk away even though she was angry with him... just my opinion I know but... I can't help thinking it could have all been different.

That's possible, but I think her choice would have been the same. Snape wasn't budging, despite her efforts, and if she chose to continue being friends with him, it likely would have had the same result. Snape's feelings wouldn't have changed the facts: he was intolerant towards Muggles and Muggleborns, wanted to be a Death Eater, had a fascination with the Dark Arts and was friends with those that aspired to be Death Eaters.

Contrary to most posters here, I really do not think that the mudblood remark was the last straw or was the reason Lily was unable to mend her differences with Snape. Because Lily had known that Snape had been calling others mudblood. That was a dirty swear word, but a swear word as far as Snape was concerned and Lily knew it too IMO. She had, starting at the time of the werewolf prank, decided to move away from Snape and decided a little later to break off with him IMO. I think she used the SWM to do so. And because she had already decided to break off from Snape, I think she refused to give Snape a choice or an ultimatum or sit him down and talk to him about his choice of words.

Yes, Lily knew. I have to disagree with your view. She knew everything, that he was interested in the Dark Arts, that he was friends with people that wanted to be Death Eaters and that he wanted to be a Death Eater. She knew that he looked down at Muggles and Muggleborns. But she ignored that, IMO, explaining why she said that she couldn't pretend anymore. I don't think that she ever thought any of that was excusable and the Mudblood comment was just a slap in her face, a catalyst for her decision to break the friendship with him.

Friends, if they are very close ones, would IMO forgive a lot.

There is always a limit to that. There are people who are close friends with someone that abuses them. People that have to go through such horrible treatment have every right to break the friendship. IMO, it's a bit of a generalization to assume that friends automatically have to forgive each other a lot, but I respect your view if you feel differently.

I think Snape and Lily were like that too. And Lily knew everything of Snape IMO, from his dark arts addiction to his penchant for calling all muggleborns *mudblood*. That was not IMO the problem. The problem was I think she started seeing Snape as a Slytherin and a future DE. Was this because of her *friends* (I don't know if she had any close ones apart from Snape) or because she was falling for James and subconciously took his opinion of Snape and made it hers, I don't know (I vote for the latter, though), but I think the Lily started breaking away from after the werewolf incident and that was made known to Snape after the SWM IMO.


I dissent. It is clear that his attraction to the Dark Arts played a factor in why she ended the friendship.

Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

IMO, it's clear that Lily found the Dark Arts despicable and it played a factor into why she broke the friendship. She even calls Mulciber and Avery evil for using it on Mary. I don't think that Lily's reasons for ending the friendship was only based on what her friends thought. They may have been a factor, but the reason is clear: Snape was doing things that Lily couldn't agree with.

It seems to me that Lily doing anything more or less was not the problem. Snape was the one who should have done something if he wanted to stay friends with Lily, imo. More importantly, Snape should have thought about the value of good and evil and made socially correct decisions, imo. At 15 years old, Snape was mature enough to know that prejudice and whatever Voldemort was doing that had people calling him "You-Know-Who" was wrong, imo.

I don't think Lily was a bad friend, but I think she made a very bad decision to remain Snape's friend once she found out that he had even a smidgeon of protactive interest in the dark arts or when she found he was hanging around people who did - or when he expressed even the smallest positive comment about Voldemort - or the first time he uttered the word Mudblood. The very first time or moment Snape did or said any of that, Lily should have walked away without looking back, imo. Apparently that was years before she did so and imo, Lily spent those years going through trauma and pain because of Snape when she should not have wasted her young life doing so. How often did Lily find herself making excuses to her friends, or worrying about Snape going to the dark side, or talking to Snape trying to point out these problems? Her own emotional state and ability to have fun in school would be affected by that, imo.

The fact that Snape's spying for Voldemort turned out to be what got the ball rolling that led to her death makes a sham of their entire friendship imo. It was like icing on the cake in terms of what he'd caused her to go through as a supposed friend, imo. Snape's later turn from evil and acts done supposedly on Lily's behalf were also made a sham based on that friendship due to the fact that imo, it caused Lily more harm than good during her youth at Hogwarts - and also because Snape did not honor her in terms of her family. A good example of those who truly honored her death can be found in Harry, Remus or Sirius, imo, those who treated her honorably in life as friends or mother and later did the same with respect to her memory.

I know how you feel, but I can't help but disagree. There are people out there that get divorces because one person in the couple is using narcotics or is an alocholic. I wouldn't agree that the other person should continue trying to convince the spouse to stop doing that after he/she tries to, and instead move on. It's not the same thing, but that's how I feel like when it comes to the friendship between Lily and Snape.

You know when you put it that way, I can completely see Lily's side. I think I always focus on Snape and his feelings and forget about what Lily must have gone through. I need to examine her as well. And in doing so, I see exactly where you are coming from. She tried to do what she could but felt him a lost cause and ended things.



That's possible, but I think her choice would have been the same. Snape wasn't budging, despite her efforts, and if she chose to continue being friends with him, it likely would have had the same result. Snape's feelings wouldn't have changed the facts: he was intolerant towards Muggles and Muggleborns, wanted to be a Death Eater, had a fascination with the Dark Arts and was friends with those that aspired to be Death Eaters.

He was so very stubborn. I can see him not budging at all :(

Friends, if they are very close ones, would IMO forgive a lot. I think Snape and Lily were like that too. And Lily knew everything of Snape IMO, from his dark arts addiction to his penchant for calling all muggleborns *mudblood*. That was not IMO the problem.

But it was a problem, TGW ... Lily makes it known to Severus early on that she hates the Dark Magic that his mates Mulciber and Avery were bullying Mary McDonald with; she actually calls it 'evil'. :shrug:

The problem was I think she started seeing Snape as a Slytherin and a future DE. Was this because of her *friends* (I don't know if she had any close ones apart from Snape) or because she was falling for James and subconciously took his opinion of Snape and made it hers, I don't know (I vote for the latter, though), but I think the Lily started breaking away from after the werewolf incident and that was made known to Snape after the SWM IMO.

I agree that distance was growing between Lily and Severus -- but I put that down to the dissonance between her Gryffindor, anti-bloodist values and the circle of Voldemort-admirers that seemed to be drawing him in.

Slytherin House unfortunately was pushed aside from before Dumbledore's period. That took away the hope of all those who could have been saved IMO.

You raise a very good point here, TGW, but I think this needs a separate thread. :) Dumbledore's apparent non-intervention in this regard, as Slytherin House fell further into darkness, troubles me greatly ... but that really IS another topic. :)

Oh! and Pearl! I may have made a mistake about Lily standing in front of Gryffindor House. I always thought she was speaking in front of those who were there at the time. And I don't have my books to check. :)

TGW, they definitely have that conversation just between the two of them. There is nobody else around. :)

It seems to me that Lily doing anything more or less was not the problem. Snape was the one who should have done something if he wanted to stay friends with Lily, imo. More importantly, Snape should have thought about the value of good and evil and made socially correct decisions, imo. At 15 years old, Snape was mature enough to know that prejudice and whatever Voldemort was doing that had people calling him "You-Know-Who" was wrong, imo.

That is indisputably true (IMO).

But Lily had the advantage of being in Gryffindor House and believing in Gryffindor morality (i.e. against racism) and having a darned good support network behind her (so I assume: as Rowling says, she was a 'popular girl'). Severus was a bit of a loner, seeking acceptance among his Slytherin peers, and didn't have a warm and supportive home life (from what little we see). Of course that doesn't absolve him of moral responsibility! But his options were not wonderful. I think this tends to be overlooked in Snape-related discussions. Basically, he would have needed the courage of a Sirius to stand up against the Voldemort tide. (Eventually, he did have the courage to work against Voldemort for years, of course ... in a classic Slytherin fashion! But that is a topic for his own thread. :) )

So I don't agree with this statement in your next paragraph: The very first time or moment Snape did or said any of that, Lily should have walked away without looking back, imo.

The first time? That's not what good friends do though, as a rule, not when they care about someone. Call him out, rebuke him, tell him off -- sure. And Lily does do those things. But things have to come to a certain point before a friend breaks off a long friendship. To use a hopefully not offensive analogy, if Lily were Jewish and Snape a joined up member of a white supremacist group dedicated to beating Jewish people up ... now that sure would be a clear and justifiable point to end the friendship. :whistle: And clearly Lily felt that time had come -- and was indeed overdue -- when she confronts Severus outside the portrait hole.

The fact that Snape's spying for Voldemort turned out to be what got the ball rolling that led to her death makes a sham of their entire friendship imo. It was like icing on the cake in terms of what he'd caused her to go through as a supposed friend, imo. Snape's later turn from evil and acts done supposedly on Lily's behalf were also made a sham based on that friendship due to the fact that imo, it caused Lily more harm than good during her youth at Hogwarts - and also because Snape did not honor her in terms of her family. A good example of those who truly honored her death can be found in Harry, Remus or Sirius, imo, those who treated her honorably in life as friends or mother and later did the same with respect to her memory.

Well, Severus was undoubtedly a man who committed many crimes in his DE phase. :( But your paragraph also makes me think of Pettigrew ... what bigger sham of a friendship could there be than his monstrous betrayal of Lily and James (and their baby son)?

I do not take the view that friendship with Severus was a non-starter or a sham or a waste of time from the word go: that is not my view of this relationship and why Rowling included it in her saga. To me it shows an open-hearted girl who offered friendship, love and acceptance to a lost boy who kept on rejecting his good friend Lily's counsel and made terrible choices ... to his lifelong regret. :(

I thought that Drusilla's post was excellent. :tu:

You know when you put it that way, I can completely see Lily's side. I think I always focus on Snape and his feelings and forget about what Lily must have gone through. I need to examine her as well. And in doing so, I see exactly where you are coming from. She tried to do what she could but felt him a lost cause and ended things. I'm still not convinced that Lily did actually "end things" I certainly think that that was the way Severus saw it, but given that Lily changed her mind about James in seventh year I could see her changing her mind about Severus as well if he had changed. So I don't believe that Lily had closed the door so to speak, but I do think that Severus thought she had - which is very sad! :upset:

The fact that Snape's spying for Voldemort turned out to be what got the ball rolling that led to her death makes a sham of their entire friendship imo.But that is to judge retrospectively - you cannot judge Lily and Snape's friendship as ten year olds on what happened over a decade later. I think the fact that Snape showed remorse and if he had his time over would choose differently shows that it was a tragic mistake - that he never meant to hurt Lily. If you compare this with Pettigrew who spyed for Voldemort knowing that he was actually betraying his friends; Severus would never have passed on the prophecy if he had known that Lily would be in danger. So in my opinion what happened in the end does not make a sham of what has gone before. I do not think that the ending of a relationship defines the whole relationship.

posted by WWB
Imo, when Lily said she couldn't pretend anymore, she was referring to the fact that she had tried to convince herself that Snape was not really interested in dark arts or acts; didn't really hold prejudice, etc., and was only doing it because of the friends he was hanging around.

posted by beatifically
But she ignored that, IMO, explaining why she said that she couldn't pretend anymore. I don't think that she ever thought any of that was excusable and the Mudblood comment was just a slap in her face, a catalyst for her decision to break the friendship with him.

I think the words *cannot pretend anymore* makes me feel that Lily could not pretend to be Snape's friend any longer. She was moving away from him IMO and she could not keep up the pretense of being his friend anymore IMO.

posted by Pearl_Took
But it was a problem, TGW ... Lily makes it known to Severus early on that she hates the Dark Magic that his mates Mulciber and Avery were bullying Mary McDonald with; she actually calls it 'evil'.

I don't know if Lily hated dark magic, but I think she detested Avery and Mulciber and she is opposing Snape's friendship with them. She was unable to accept it, which IMO is perfectly understandable.

posted by CathyWeasley
I'm still not convinced that Lily did actually "end things" I certainly think that that was the way Severus saw it, but given that Lily changed her mind about James in seventh year I could see her changing her mind about Severus as well if he had changed. So I don't believe that Lily had closed the door so to speak, but I do think that Severus thought she had - which is very sad!

I don't know know if Lily would have accepted Snape. I think that's a lovely thought though! :) Why do you feel this way?

Because for her to do that she would have to be convinced in her mind that Snape had chosen against Voldemort. But that's where the way she broke off and the werewolf incident and the SWM makes me feel that she was not interested in the friendship anymore. That's what hurts (me) actually. She had chosen and waited for an opportunity and told Snape. And I think Lily made this decisison because she fell for James.

Otherwise her stubborn nature and her loyalty towards her friend (I think she had it in spades, because she was friends with a Slytherin whom nobody liked openly for over five years) are totally at odds with each other. I started thinking badly of her, but am slowly after reading many posts here and doing some thinking, feel that there may have been something more than what I saw on the surface. And this is what I've come up with. :)

If you compare this with Pettigrew who spyed for Voldemort knowing that he was actually betraying his friends; Severus would never have passed on the prophecy if he had known that Lily would be in danger.

:tu:

-------------

The werwolf incident to the SWM are shown IMO to tell the story of the start of the end of the friendship. And I think we have Lily appreciating James also in that memory by saying that he was herioc and Snape was ungrateful; and then the pretense; she calls James an arrogant toerag; I think she's started pretending and she stopped the pretence at the time of the SWM IMO. Then her uncaring attitude towards Snape in the werewolf incident is understandable IMO.

Everything came together at the time of the werewolf incident; Snape goes into the tunnel; Snape is rescued; Lily comes to know of James's heroic rescue and perhaps begins to fall for him; speks uncaringly to Snape; tells him off; condems his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber; calls James an arrogant toerag (starts moving away from Snape but still pretends to be best friends); SWM, Snape calls lily a dirty word, and Lily break off with him, unable to pretend any longer.

Just my opinion.

I'm still not convinced that Lily did actually "end things" I certainly think that that was the way Severus saw it, but given that Lily changed her mind about James in seventh year I could see her changing her mind about Severus as well if he had changed. So I don't believe that Lily had closed the door so to speak, but I do think that Severus thought she had - which is very sad! :upset:
At the time, I think that Lily meant to end the friendship, and that it was a final decision for her. While Lily did say that James was 'just as bad' as Snape, I think that James's point, that he would never call her a 'you-know-what' was relevant. More importantly, Lily knew it. Lily might have disliked James' arrogance, but she did see redeeming qualities in him, and knew that he was 'salvageable'. She mentions his messing his hair and playing with the snitch in the same vein as hexing people who annoyed him. I found it amusing that even when she's scolding him, she doesn't accuse him of hexing people randomly without cause.

Even if Snape had changed, I don't think that they could have ever been as close as they were before SWM. They'd still have been friends, but IMO, any possibility of it becoming something more ended right then.

So in my opinion what happened in the end does not make a sham of what has gone before. I do not think that the ending of a relationship defines the whole relationship.
I agree, to some extent. But, I believe that the friendship was something of a sham as far as Snape was concerned. Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily. He saw the friendship as a way of getting closer to her, as a prelude to a romantic relationship, while Lily did value the friendship. In that context, the friendship was a sham, IMO.

But I do agree that the end of the relationship doesn't define it.

Contrary to most posters here, I really do not think that the mudblood remark was the last straw or was the reason Lily was unable to mend her differences with Snape. Because Lily had known that Snape had been calling others mudblood. That was a dirty swear word, but a swear word as far as Snape was concerned and Lily knew it too IMO.
It's not just another swearword, but the worst insult in the wizarding world. James doesn't even say it out loud, it's so foul. I think that Lily had been deluding herself that others were lying about Snape using it, until SWM. Snape calling her mudblood convinced her that her friends had been telling her the truth.

She had, starting at the time of the werewolf prank, decided to move away from Snape and decided a little later to break off with him IMO. I think she used the SWM to do so. And because she had already decided to break off from Snape, I think she refused to give Snape a choice or an ultimatum or sit him down and talk to him about his choice of words.
I disagree completely. Lily's words to Snape when he tries to placate her suggest that she had been looking for reasons to stay friends, not otherwise. If she'd been looking for a reason to break off the relationship. she had plenty before, like his insulting her friends, his unhealthy obsession with the Dark Arts, aspiring to join the Death Eaters etc. It took a direct insult from Snape, about her parentage, for her to finally break off the friendship.

As for the lack of any ultimatum, or not calmly talking about it, James's revulsion to the word and his refusal to even utter it, shows us just how horrible it was. As mentioned quite clearly in the text, it was unforgivable.
Distantly he heard Snape shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: “Mudblood.”
I also can't help but think that Lily was afraid to offer a choice to Snape - afraid that he might choose the Dark Arts over their friendship. She'd already been hurt deeply by him, and didn't want to give Snape that chance to hurt her again. She wanted to end it on her terms.

Friends, if they are very close ones, would IMO forgive a lot. I think Snape and Lily were like that too. And Lily knew everything of Snape IMO, from his dark arts addiction to his penchant for calling all muggleborns *mudblood*. That was not IMO the problem.
I think that it would also depend on the people involved and how strained the relationship was. In Snape and Lily's case, the relationship was already strained, and it was completely Snape's fault. It probably didn't help that Lily was so fiery. Lily hearing of these things about Snape, and Lily experiencing it first-hand from Snape are quite different, IMO. Besides, just because Lily remained friends with Snape, even after hearing such things about him, doesn't mean the she condoned that sort of behaviour, or that she didn't mind. IMO, it can be compared to Harry keeping quiet a lot, when Ron was ranting about being a 'free agent'. He didn't approve, but he kept quiet, because he wanted to remain friends. However, in DH, when Ron's ire is directed at him, he reacts strongly.

The problem was I think she started seeing Snape as a Slytherin and a future DE.
Considering that Snape was a Slytherin and a future DE, I'd say that Lily was right on the money. :lol: We're shown quite clearly what teenager Snape was like with Lily. Thus, I don't think that she had to listen to her friends, or take on James' opinion of Snape, to see that he was going down a bad road. However, she did stick by her friend in spite of this, because she cared about him.

I also disagree with the idea that Lily never gave him a choice. (Not that Snape deserved one) She'd been giving him choices for a long time, Snape never saw those as choices, because she requested and pleaded with him. Snape saw that as a sign of weakness, as a sign that she could be bent to his will, that she could be brought around to his idea. Doing what Lily wanted him to do, keeping away from loathsome people like Avery and Macnair, was never an option that Snape wanted to take, because he craved the power and recognition that the DEs promised.

Snape had been accepted only by Lily (that was complete and that was an acceptance for his sake) and he had a partial acceptance because of his brilliance with the Slytherins, who wanted to use him IMO. Snape, otherwise does not seem to be a part of any group and nor does he seem to be welcome and accepted anywhere else. Lily had broken off with him. I don't think he would have been able to break off with the other group, unless Lily gave him another chance. She did not and I think that would and did make Snape cling more to Avery and Mulciber.

I just don't see where the idea that Snape craved acceptance comes from. Maybe that was what be needed, but Snape didn't want that at all. What he wanted was power, and recognition of his talents in the Dark arts. If he wanted acceptance, why does he pick a fight with the first people he sees on the train? Why'd he develop a reputation for the Dark Arts? Why would he come to Hogwarts, the school he'd been looking forward to attending, armed with more dark curses than a seventh year? Like Voldemort, he wanted to evoke fear in others.

Thus, I can't agree with the assesment that Snape joined the DEs to feel accepted. The text makes it quite clear, IMO, that he joined up because he wanted power.

That is indisputably true (IMO).

But Lily had the advantage of being in Gryffindor House and believing in Gryffindor morality (i.e. against racism) and having a darned good support network behind her (so I assume: as Rowling says, she was a 'popular girl'). Severus was a bit of a loner, seeking acceptance among his Slytherin peers, and didn't have a warm and supportive home life (from what little we see). Of course that doesn't absolve him of moral responsibility! But his options were not wonderful. I think this tends to be overlooked in Snape-related discussions. Basically, he would have needed the courage of a Sirius to stand up against the Voldemort tide. (Eventually, he did have the courage to work against Voldemort for years, of course ... in a classic Slytherin fashion! But that is a topic for his own thread. :) )

I would respectfully disagree that Snape's options were limited by his Slytherin house membership. JKR said that not all Slytherins were budding Death Eaters and in Harry's year she gave us an example of that (a Slytherin who verbally belittled Voldemort and the Death Eaters in Blaise - plus those Slytherins who ultimately returned with Slughorn to fight against Voldemort.) Imo, Snape had the opportunity to be friendly with those Slytherins who were not budding Death Eaters, but he chose his friends from among those who were.

Imo, if the only problem Lily had with Snape was his looking down on Muggles and Muggleborns, she would have been able to help him work through that because he was a half-blood himself and at least his initial dislike of them would likely have been based on his upbringing with a mean Muggle dad and poor experiences with Muggle children in the neighborhood. However, imo, his initial dislike was amplified through his dark arts activities at Hogwarts because it was also a tenant of the budding Death Eaters for other reasons.

That is what I was referring to. :)

So I don't agree with this statement in your next paragraph: The very first time or moment Snape did or said any of that, Lily should have walked away without looking back, imo. [/B

The first time? That's not what good friends do though, as a rule, not when they care about someone. Call him out, rebuke him, tell him off -- sure. And Lily [B]does do those things. But things have to come to a certain point before a friend breaks off a long friendship.

I respect your opinion and I agree that the first time Snape did or said any of those things Lily should address them. But if she made no headway after that first time, imo, she should have dropped the friendship then. I believe it is the best way to handle the situation, although I realize most people do not do this. Instead, many, like Lily, continue to try, but the problem is, it affected her negatively and 2-4 years of being negatively affected in this way would have been detrimental to her own emotional state and life at Hogwarts, imo.

Well, Severus was undoubtedly a man who committed many crimes in his DE phase. :( But your paragraph also makes me think of Pettigrew ... what bigger sham of a friendship could there be than his monstrous betrayal of Lily and James (and their baby son)?

Oh I agree with you 100%; In hindsight, Peter made a complete sham of his earlier friendship with the Marauders as well, imo, not only with his betrayal, but also with respect to his later treatment of Harry.

I do not take the view that friendship with Severus was a non-starter or a sham or a waste of time from the word go: that is not my view of this relationship and why Rowling included it in her saga. To me it shows an open-hearted girl who offered friendship, love and acceptance to a lost boy who kept on rejecting his good friend Lily's counsel and made terrible choices ... to his lifelong regret. :(

I agree with you; I too feel that the friendship showed those things you wrote. I was speaking in terms of hindsight, similar to Peter. :)

But that is to judge retrospectively - you cannot judge Lily and Snape's friendship as ten year olds on what happened over a decade later. I think the fact that Snape showed remorse and if he had his time over would choose differently shows that it was a tragic mistake - that he never meant to hurt Lily. If you compare this with Pettigrew who spyed for Voldemort knowing that he was actually betraying his friends; Severus would never have passed on the prophecy if he had known that Lily would be in danger. So in my opinion what happened in the end does not make a sham of what has gone before. I do not think that the ending of a relationship defines the whole relationship.

I agree with you completely that Peter made a direct sham of his previous friendship with James and Lily by knowingly betraying them and his later treatment of their son. Imo, Snape did the same thing, but indirectly with regard to his betrayal - although directly with his treatment of Harry. Imo, the latter part of Snape and Lily's friendship consisted of her attempting to convince Snape that he was headed down the wrong path. Imo, the most negative aspect of Snape relaying the propehcy was not that it pertained to Lily and her family, but rather that Snape was aware that some baby and its parents would be marked for death as a result of his actions, but he acted anyway for reasons of personal gain. The magnitude of Snape's act indicates the strength of his disregard of all those things Lily had been attempting to show Snape during their friendship, both verbally and through her own behavior and attitude. In that context, Snape made a sham of their old friendship imo. And like Peter, Snape's later treatment of Lily's loved ones continued to make a sham of his old friendship with Lily, imo.

Just to clarify, when I say "made a sham of the friendship" I am speaking in terms of honoring the value of the friendship. Imo, the "value" consisted of things like those Pearl pointed out, the love, goodness, acceptance and kindness that Lily showed Snape despite his being an outcast among the majority at Hogwarts - and the value of choosing the good side over the dark side. Imo, Snape initially made a sham of that value when he elected to pursue his dark activities over those things (Lily's friendship) and later in his continued pursuits in that regard. Even when he stopped pursuing dark activities and felt remorse for his act that had caused Lily's death, he did not fully honor all of the value of the relationship because he continued to disregard it with respect to her loved ones and others, imo.

On the other hand, I would also take into consideration that from Snape's point of view, those things that Pearl mentioned may not have been the "values" of the relationship as he saw it. It is possible that Snape felt the value was the feeling of love that Lily engendered in him based on her looks and/or other factors about her that made him feel that way. From that point of view, for Snape, he would not be making a sham of what the friendship had meant to him. Imo, that would be a selfish view of the relationship (from Snape's point of view) and I would still conclude he was making a sham of the relationship from a less selfish view, for example Lily's point of view or a mutual friendship point of view.

I also can't help but think that Lily was afraid to offer a choice to Snape - afraid that he might choose the Dark Arts over their friendship. She'd already been hurt deeply by him, and didn't want to give Snape that chance to hurt her again. She wanted to end it on her terms.I think you're right about that. It's also unfortunate that at the time, Snape couldn't see that the more deeply involved with people like Mulciber and Avery he got, the farther away from Lily he became.

I'm still not convinced that Lily did actually "end things" I certainly think that that was the way Severus saw it, but given that Lily changed her mind about James in seventh year I could see her changing her mind about Severus as well if he had changed. So I don't believe that Lily had closed the door so to speak, but I do think that Severus thought she had - which is very sad! :upset:

Could you imagine if there was a chance and Snape never took it :upset: That would be terrible. But I don't know. I think Lily had given up and needed to make the break. Now if there were an opening, I think that Snape would have had to show improvement. Had Snape changed for the better or begun to change his friends, etc. then maybe there could have been a change of heart for Lily. But as Snape continued and got further into the dark arts, I don't think the opportunity for reconciliation was there.



I think the words *cannot pretend anymore* makes me feel that Lily could not pretend to be Snape's friend any longer. She was moving away from him IMO and she could not keep up the pretense of being his friend anymore IMO.

I always saw this as Lily pretending Snape was the same person he used to be so that they could be friends. I didn't see it as her pretending to be his friend, I think her feelings toward Snape were always genuine and there was never a time when she pretended there.

I think the words *cannot pretend anymore* makes me feel that Lily could not pretend to be Snape's friend any longer. She was moving away from him IMO and she could not keep up the pretense of being his friend anymore IMO.
The context in which the words are said makes it clear that this is not the case, IMO. Lily talks about how she made excuses for him for years, about how her friends couldn't understand why she talked to him, and then, she accuses him of aiming to join Voldemort, an accusation that Snape does not deny. Their friendship is never mentioned in the whole conversation. The sentence makes more sense of she's talking about his activities they'd been discussing.

IMO, this whole idea of Lily using the insult to end the relationship makes it sound as if she set it up, expecting Snape to insult her that way. I deeply resent the implication that Lily thought of Snape as excess baggage to be dumped at the first opportunity. You don't stand up for someone you don't care about, against almost the whole school.

I don't know if Lily hated dark magic, but I think she detested Avery and Mulciber and she is opposing Snape's friendship with them. She was unable to accept it, which IMO is perfectly understandable.
“That was nothing,” said Snape. “It was a laugh, that’s all—”
“It was Dark Magic, and if you think that’s funny—”
***
“They don’t use Dark Magic, though.”
***
“I don’t need you to tell me that. But Mulciber’s and Avery’s idea of humor is
just evil. Evil, Sev. I don’t understand how you can be friends with them.”
I think its pretty clear that Lily disliked Dark Magic, and appreciated James' aversion to it. It's also evident that it's Avery and Mulciber's use of Dark Magic that Lily finds evil.

The werwolf incident to the SWM are shown IMO to tell the story of the start of the end of the friendship. And I think we have Lily appreciating James also in that memory by saying that he was herioc and Snape was ungrateful; and then the pretense; she calls James an arrogant toerag; I think she's started pretending and she stopped the pretence at the time of the SWM IMO. Then her uncaring attitude towards Snape in the werewolf incident is understandable IMO.
I'm not getting this at all. Lily thinks that James saving her best friend's life is heroic, and that shows lack of caring for Snape? How does Lily liking James imply that she started disliking Snape? After all, Lily's feelings for Snape are purely platonic, unlike what she feels for James. They're not mutually exclusive.

I think that it showed that Lily was able to be objective when it came to James. She did admire certain qualities in him, but she still disliked him for his oversize ego. If you think about it, it is sort of unfair that Snape despises James even after he risks his life for him. Snape's perspective might be different, but the facts are: James saved Snape's life, and Snape shows no gratitude. That is what Lily knows as the truth.

I would respectfully disagree that Snape's options were limited by his Slytherin house membership. JKR said that not all Slytherins were budding Death Eaters and in Harry's year she gave us an example of that (a Slytherin who verbally belittled Voldemort and the Death Eaters in Blaise - plus those Slytherins who ultimately returned with Slughorn to fight against Voldemort.) Imo, Snape had the opportunity to be friendly with those Slytherins who were not budding Death Eaters, but he chose his friends from among those who were.
I agree. Snape chose those people who he thought would be able to benefit him, with no thoughts about morality.

I respect your opinion and I agree that the first time Snape did or said any of those things Lily should address them. But if she made no headway after that first time, imo, she should have dropped the friendship then. I believe it is the best way to handle the situation, although I realize most people do not do this. Instead, many, like Lily, continue to try, but the problem is, it affected her negatively and 2-4 years of being negatively affected in this way would have been detrimental to her own emotional state and life at Hogwarts, imo.
I think that she should have ended the relationship earlier, but IMO, it was not like Lily to simply give up on people she cared about. We saw that with Petunia, and later, with James. I think that she should have given it up when he started calling her friends mudblood. I agree that the relationship would have been detrimental to her. Not only that, she would have been resented by the victims of Snape's gang. I imagine that she heard a lot of 'I told you so's after SWM, and had to endure many smug faces from her friends who'd warned her before. I think that Lily was lucky to have ended the relationship when she did.

Imo, the most negative aspect of Snape relaying the propehcy was not that it pertained to Lily and her family, but rather that Snape was aware that some baby and its parents would be marked for death as a result of his actions, but he acted anyway for reasons of personal gain. The magnitude of Snape's act indicates the strength of his disregard of all those things Lily had been attempting to show Snape during their friendship, both verbally and through her own behavior and attitude. In that context, Snape made a sham of their old friendship imo. And like Peter, Snape's later treatment of Lily's loved ones continued to make a sham of his old friendship with Lily, imo.

:clap: :tu: I agree completely. I admit I'd never quite thought of it that way. I'd add that this was true when they were friends as well, with Snape disregarding what Lily tells him.

Even when he stopped pursuing dark activities and felt remorse for his act that had caused Lily's death, he did not fully honor all of the value of the relationship because he continued to disregard it with respect to her loved ones and others, imo.
True. He completely disregards the love and compassion that Lily had shown him, by bullying his students, taunting and insulting Harry, and his general demeanour. I also agree about Snape not seeing these as values. I think that he saw them as weaknesses on Lily's part that had to be overcome.

Imo, the most negative aspect of Snape relaying the propehcy was not that it pertained to Lily and her family, but rather that Snape was aware that some baby and its parents would be marked for death as a result of his actions, but he acted anyway for reasons of personal gain.

Answered in Snape's thread.

I think the words *cannot pretend anymore* makes me feel that Lily could not pretend to be Snape's friend any longer. She was moving away from him IMO and she could not keep up the pretense of being his friend anymore IMO.

I interpret her words to mean that she can't pretend about the direction that Sev's life is heading in any more -- after he has hurled the worst racist insult at her, all pretence is blown apart. Severus knows this -- he knows he's done a terrible thing -- which is why he comes to plead with her.

I don't know if Lily hated dark magic, but I think she detested Avery and Mulciber and she is opposing Snape's friendship with them. She was unable to accept it, which IMO is perfectly understandable.

Dark Magic is violent and occultic and used against people to hurt them. It is inconceivable to me that Lily Evans would have approved of Dark Magic in any form. It doesn't jive with her character at all. JMO. :)

I agree, to some extent. But, I believe that the friendship was something of a sham as far as Snape was concerned. Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily. He saw the friendship as a way of getting closer to her, as a prelude to a romantic relationship, while Lily did value the friendship. In that context, the friendship was a sham, IMO.

Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily? :huh: So what do you make of him as a nine year old child, hungrily watching another magical child play? -- another child like himself, whom he is desperate to be friends with? :) He doesn't have any romantic inclinations at that point: he's only nine! :lol:

I just don't see where the idea that Snape craved acceptance comes from. Maybe that was what be needed, but Snape didn't want that at all. What he wanted was power, and recognition of his talents in the Dark arts. If he wanted acceptance, why does he pick a fight with the first people he sees on the train? Why'd he develop a reputation for the Dark Arts? Why would he come to Hogwarts, the school he'd been looking forward to attending, armed with more dark curses than a seventh year? Like Voldemort, he wanted to evoke fear in others.

Thus, I can't agree with the assesment that Snape joined the DEs to feel accepted. The text makes it quite clear, IMO, that he joined up because he wanted power.

The text doesn't make it at all clear that power was Snape's only motivation. :) People in real life can be complicated, and IMO, Rowling leaves her readers to interpret Snape's motivations in various ways. Yeah, the DEs are all about power -- and that would be a powerful attraction for an extremely insecure boy like Severus. But any further discussion on this I'll take to the Snape thread. ;)

True. He completely disregards the love and compassion that Lily had shown him, by bullying his students, taunting and insulting Harry, and his general demeanour. I also agree about Snape not seeing these as values. I think that he saw them as weaknesses on Lily's part that had to be overcome.

Would you mind offering some solid textual evidence in support of your statement that Snape saw Lily's virtues of love and compassion as weaknesses that she had to overcome? :)

I would respectfully disagree that Snape's options were limited by his Slytherin house membership. JKR said that not all Slytherins were budding Death Eaters and in Harry's year she gave us an example of that (a Slytherin who verbally belittled Voldemort and the Death Eaters in Blaise - plus those Slytherins who ultimately returned with Slughorn to fight against Voldemort.) Imo, Snape had the opportunity to be friendly with those Slytherins who were not budding Death Eaters, but he chose his friends from among those who were.

That is all quite true, you're right.

('The Slytherins who returned with Slughorn to fight against Voldemort' is a sore point with me because the text does not say so! But that's a topic for another thread.)

I don't know know if Lily would have accepted Snape. I think that's a lovely thought though! Why do you feel this way? Really it is because I don't think that Lily is a "That's it" kind of girl - she was prepared to re-evaluate James when he changed so I think she would have done the same for Severus. I genuinely believe that if Snape had changed direction between SWM and leaving Hogwarts then he could have been friends with Lily again.

I agree, to some extent. But, I believe that the friendship was something of a sham as far as Snape was concerned. Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily. He saw the friendship as a way of getting closer to her, as a prelude to a romantic relationship, while Lily did value the friendship. In that context, the friendship was a sham, IMO.I don't agree that Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily. I personally don't really compartmentalise my relationships so definitely. I remember having male friends that I fancied and would have liked to go out with - but that doesn't mean I didn't value the friendship, so I don't see how Severus being romantically interested in Lily automatically means he didn't value their friendship.

The magnitude of Snape's act indicates the strength of his disregard of all those things Lily had been attempting to show Snape during their friendship, both verbally and through her own behavior and attitude. In that context, Snape made a sham of their old friendship imo. And like Peter, Snape's later treatment of Lily's loved ones continued to make a sham of his old friendship with Lily, imo. What was Lily attempting to show Severus durinf their friendship? I'm really not sure what you mean. Are you saying that she was trying to teach him things? If so I can only say that I respectfully disagree. I don't try to teach or show my friends things - it implies some sort of superiority - I might share things with them - as Severus shared his knowledge of the wizarding world and his preference for Slytherin house. So as such I don't agree that his behaviour made a sham of their friendship.

Imo, Snape initially made a sham of that value when he elected to pursue his dark activities over those things (Lily's friendship) and later in his continued pursuits in that regard. Even when he stopped pursuing dark activities and felt remorse for his act that had caused Lily's death, he did not fully honor all of the value of the relationship because he continued to disregard it with respect to her loved ones and others, imo.
I am still rather confused by what you are saying. You seem to be saying that in order to honour his friendship with Lily then he should behave in a way that she would approve of. I disagree with that entirely. I do not think I should behave in a way my friends approve of - nor do I expect my friends to behave in a way I would approve of. (Though perhaps you see this differently)
We all of us make our own choices. Of course we are influenced for good or bad by our friends, but ultimately we make our own choices which is what Snape did. His bitterness, his ill-treatment of Harry and others gave him no reward - it didn't make him happy. If he had behaved differently then he would have been a lot happier, but it was his choice. I don't really see it as anything to do with honouring Lily's memory.


Could you imagine if there was a chance and Snape never took it That would be terrible. But I don't know. I think Lily had given up and needed to make the break. Now if there were an opening, I think that Snape would have had to show improvement. Had Snape changed for the better or begun to change his friends, etc. then maybe there could have been a change of heart for Lily. But as Snape continued and got further into the dark arts, I don't think the opportunity for reconciliation was there.
That is why I fond it so heartbreakingly tragic - if Snape had changed he could have had a chance to be Lily's friend again - and possibly more.

Snape's gangCanon?

I would respectfully disagree that Snape's options were limited by his Slytherin house membership. JKR said that not all Slytherins were budding Death Eaters and in Harry's year she gave us an example of that (a Slytherin who verbally belittled Voldemort and the Death Eaters in Blaise - plus those Slytherins who ultimately returned with Slughorn to fight against Voldemort.) Imo, Snape had the opportunity to be friendly with those Slytherins who were not budding Death Eaters, but he chose his friends from among those who were.

Answered in Snape's thread.

I always saw this as Lily pretending Snape was the same person he used to be so that they could be friends. I didn't see it as her pretending to be his friend, I think her feelings toward Snape were always genuine and there was never a time when she pretended there.

That could also be possible, but I think Lily was pretending to be his friend; perhaps pretending that nothing had changed between them, until the SWM happened; that's also possible IMO.

posted by CathyWeasley
Really it is because I don't think that Lily is a "That's it" kind of girl - she was prepared to re-evaluate James when he changed so I think she would have done the same for Severus. I genuinely believe that if Snape had changed direction between SWM and leaving Hogwarts then he could have been friends with Lily again

Wouldn't it be sad really, if Lily waited for the one year and half, to see if Snape would change and Snape started hanging out more and more with Avery and Mulciber, because having lost Lily, he would not want to lose them too. :sad:

But somehow I feel that Lily did break off completely from Snape and it would take a lot before she accepted him back. James, I think she was prepared to re-evaluate, because she fell for him IMO.

With Snape there was nothing like that, and seeing that she never allowed Snape to speak that night, I don't know if she would believe that he had stopped hanging out with Avery and Mulciber IMO. But if she did think the way you said; how tragic really, because Snape I think would have moved mountains to get back with her.

I think Snape also felt that his friendship with Lily had broken once and for all, knowing her nature, which may have been stubborn and sticking to her decisions, did not try at all IMO.

I interpret her words to mean that she can't pretend about the direction that Sev's life is heading in any more -- after he has hurled the worst racist insult at her, all pretence is blown apart. Severus knows this -- he knows he's done a terrible thing -- which is why he comes to plead with her.
That's how I saw it too. :agree:

Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily? :huh: So what do you make of him as a nine year old child, hungrily watching another magical child play? -- another child like himself, whom he is desperate to be friends with? :) He doesn't have any romantic inclinations at that point: he's only nine! :lol:
I thought he was ten, not nine, because the timeline seemed to indicate that the later memories took place close to each other. Lily receives her letter soon after, which means she and Snape turned eleven. The text mentions 'nine or ten', but I assumed that it was intended to show that Snape was small for his age, i.e looked nine though he was ten.

The description of Snape in the text shows him looking with 'undisguised greed' at Lily. And I don't think his being just ten matters. Ginny was about the same age when she had a crush on Harry.

But any further discussion on this I'll take to the Snape thread. ;)
Sure. :)

Would you mind offering some solid textual evidence in support of your statement that Snape saw Lily's virtues of love and compassion as weaknesses that she had to overcome? :)
We see Snape downplaying her concerns about what was done to Mary Macdonald as being just a bit of fun. There's also the whole speech that he gives to Harry during the Occlumency lessons, about 'fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves'. IMO, that was what he thought of Lily's virtues. I don't think that Snape could have joined the DEs if he hadn't shut off his compassion and sense of empathy. Considering that he wanted Lily by his side, it follows that he expected her to 'come around'.

I don't agree that Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily. I personally don't really compartmentalise my relationships so definitely. I remember having male friends that I fancied and would have liked to go out with - but that doesn't mean I didn't value the friendship, so I don't see how Severus being romantically interested in Lily automatically means he didn't value their friendship.
IMO, he did value the friendship, but only as a means to a romantic relationship. It's just that he doesn't show any appreciationfor it in the memories. He laughs at her concerns, ignores her when she's talking, and changes the topic when the current one doesn't suit him. He was so blinded by his romantic feelings that he neglects their friendship.

Canon?
"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily? :huh: So what do you make of him as a nine year old child, hungrily watching another magical child play? -- another child like himself, whom he is desperate to be friends with? :) He doesn't have any romantic inclinations at that point: he's only nine! :lol:

:tu: that was pretty much my reaction too.


Would you mind offering some solid textual evidence in support of your statement that Snape saw Lily's virtues of love and compassion as weaknesses that she had to overcome? :)

:tu: I must admit it sounds a bizarre interpretation to me – I would like to hear the reasoning behind it, perhaps then it might make more sense to me?? :hmm:

I don't agree that Snape never wanted to be friends with Lily. I personally don't really compartmentalise my relationships so definitely. I remember having male friends that I fancied and would have liked to go out with - but that doesn't mean I didn't value the friendship, so I don't see how Severus being romantically interested in Lily automatically means he didn't value their friendship.

And isn’t that exactly what Snape does – compartmentalise everything. I see his mind as being full of lots of different boxes (a large number of which are locked with the key safely hidden :lol:) – that’s why he’s such a good occulmens [sp?] and I agree fancying someone does not stop you valuing their friendship; sometimes it can actually make you value it more. (either that or I have some real problems :p)

Are you saying that she was trying to teach him things? If so I can only say that I respectfully disagree. I don't try to teach or show my friends things - it implies some sort of superiority - I might share things with them - as Severus shared his knowledge of the wizarding world and his preference for Slytherin house. So as such I don't agree that his behaviour made a sham of their friendship.

:agree: I don’t think Lily saw her self as superior – she just doesn’t strike me as that conceited :)

I am still rather confused by what you are saying. You seem to be saying that in order to honour his friendship with Lily then he should behave in a way that she would approve of. I disagree with that entirely. I do not think I should behave in a way my friends approve of - nor do I expect my friends to behave in a way I would approve of. (Though perhaps you see this differently)

I agree (again!) the friends I have had who are very different to me have been incredibly challenging and rewarding – I have learnt to value people who can disagree vehemently and still carry on a friendship; let’s face it, it’s not always easy. I have never expected them to change, hoped for it occasionally but never expected it. :whistle: On the odd occasion where it has happened it has been very touching because it was so unexpected.

In the end, your right, our actins & our treatment of others creates our reward for good or ill, and that’s what Snape lives with every day.

That could also be possible, but I think Lily was pretending to be his friend; perhaps pretending that nothing had changed between them, until the SWM happened; that's also possible IMO.

But she had already let him know that she hated what his friends were up to. She also says to him that she 'has made excuses for him' for years. It's precisely because she cares about Severus that she was a bit in denial about the extent of his Dark Arts obsession, I think. Now she can pretend no longer: there is something seriously wrong here. The fact that he turned on her publicly with that deadly insult (no matter how hurt and humiliated he felt -- and I do have great sympathy for Severus in that scene) was the last straw. She's only 16. It's understandable.

I don't see Lily as shallow, TGW. Maybe I'm a bit protective of the character because she's Harry's mum. :D And you know how daft I am about Harry. ;) But to me it really takes away something from the story if I thought Lily was acting in a shallow manner here. I really don't think that she is. A bit hasty and judgemental? -- yeah, possibly she is . But she did have just cause. She really did.

Wouldn't it be sad really, if Lily waited for the one year and half, to see if Snape would change and Snape started hanging out more and more with Avery and Mulciber, because having lost Lily, he would not want to lose them too. :sad:

I agree with CathyWeasley. I think that if Severus had given all that rubbish up, he would have got Lily back ... as a friend, if not the romance he hoped for.

But somehow I feel that Lily did break off completely from Snape and it would take a lot before she accepted him back. James, I think she was prepared to re-evaluate, because she fell for him IMO.

TGW, that's not the only reason, IMO. Lily was prepared to re-evaluate James because she believed he had changed: she rejected him after SWM, remember???? She really tore him off a strip! Look, I don't like teenage James much. But I don't think his behaviour in SWM (which, believe me, I dislike intensely) is worse than what Mulciber and Avery were doing. And Severus laughs that off. He finds the Dark Magic practised on Mary McDonald 'funny'. Well, Lily doesn't find that funny, any more than she found James and Sirius picking on Severus funny (her lip may twitch during SWM but it's against her better judgement, surely) ... and she is right.

And it would take a lot for Lily to take Severus back. It would take no less than his giving up his dedication to the Dark Arts, aspiring to be a member of the wannabe Death Eaters and targetting Muggleborn students like herself!

With Snape there was nothing like that, and seeing that she never allowed Snape to speak that night, I don't know if she would believe that he had stopped hanging out with Avery and Mulciber IMO. But if she did think the way you said; how tragic really, because Snape I think would have moved mountains to get back with her.

She does give him a chance to speak, TGW. And he blows it. Why doesn't he deny that he wants to become a Death Eater? Why doesn't he promise Lily that he won't insult other Muggleborn students and not just her? And of course it's tragic. But for Severus to get Lily back, even as a friend, he would have had to give up his fascination with the elite gang shaping up to be Death Eaters. That's what it would have taken. However difficult a decision that would have been for him -- and it would have been! -- that would have been the right thing to do.

I think Snape also felt that his friendship with Lily had broken once and for all, knowing her nature, which may have been stubborn and sticking to her decisions, did not try at all IMO.

It also says something about Severus. Once his beloved Lily dismisses him, he feels that is it. She tells him to get lost and so he does just that. Unfortunately though, it doesn't make him turn back from the dark path he is pursuing.

I thought he was ten, not nine, because the timeline seemed to indicate that the later memories took place close to each other. Lily receives her letter soon after, which means she and Snape turned eleven. The text mentions 'nine or ten', but I assumed that it was intended to show that Snape was small for his age, i.e looked nine though he was ten.

Nine, ten ... not much difference. :D :) (I didn't have the book on me earlier to check! :) )

The description of Snape in the text shows him looking with 'undisguised greed' at Lily. And I don't think his being just ten matters. Ginny was about the same age when she had a crush on Harry.

But the text makes it clear that Ginny had a crush on Harry at the age of ten! The 'undisguised greed' on Snape's face has been interpreted in several ways by readers on this very thread ... it could mean romantic leanings, sure. I would not read anything more sinister into it than that: he's only TEN.

We see Snape downplaying her concerns about what was done to Mary Macdonald as being just a bit of fun.

That was teenage Severus. I do think there is a difference between him and Adult Severus.

There's also the whole speech that he gives to Harry during the Occlumency lessons, about 'fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves'. IMO, that was what he thought of Lily's virtues.

Or maybe he was referring to himself. It is just possible that Severus despised any possible hints of that in himself. And yes, I'm hypothesising ... but so are you. :)

At any rate, Adult Snape did not despise Lily Potter, the woman he'd loved and whose death (which he had indirectly brought about) he deeply regretted. IMO.

I don't think that Snape could have joined the DEs if he hadn't shut off his compassion and sense of empathy.

Oh, absolutely that is true. No question. But, again ... this is Teenage (or Twentysomething) Snape that does those things. Not that Adult Snape is exactly dripping in compassion and empathy. :whistle: But he's not going around torturing and killing people either: he has put those ways behind him.

Considering that he wanted Lily by his side, it follows that he expected her to 'come around'.

What evidence do we have in canon that he 'wanted Lily by his side'? Are you referring to the fact that he wanted to save her initially but not James and Harry as well, when he met with Dumbledore on the hillside to beg him for help? All the canon we have is that he wanted to save Lily's life. We don't know anything more about what Snape fancied might happen after her life had been saved, because Rowling doesn't tell us anything more. Anything more is just our own speculation. Dumbledore rebukes him for being so grossly selfish as to not care about the deaths of James and Harry: and that is the turning point, right there. Snape agrees for Lily to be saved, even though that means he himself will never now get her.

IMO, he did value the friendship, but only as a means to a romantic relationship. It's just that he doesn't show any appreciation for it in the memories. He laughs at her concerns, ignores her when she's talking, and changes the topic when the current one doesn't suit him. He was so blinded by his romantic feelings that he neglects their friendship.

I do agree with this. I think he had a huge disconnect in his life: on the one hand, there's Lily, whom he loves desperately and wants to have for his own ... on the other, there's all the Death Eater nonsense. He was in denial. He couldn't have both Lily and the Dark stuff ... and Lily faced him with that stark choice.

I think that she should have ended the relationship earlier, but IMO, it was not like Lily to simply give up on people she cared about. We saw that with Petunia, and later, with James. I think that she should have given it up when he started calling her friends mudblood. I agree that the relationship would have been detrimental to her. Not only that, she would have been resented by the victims of Snape's gang. I imagine that she heard a lot of 'I told you so's after SWM, and had to endure many smug faces from her friends who'd warned her before. I think that Lily was lucky to have ended the relationship when she did.


"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

I have posted your original comment with the phrase "Snape's gang" in it. I am sorry if I misunderstand , but by calling it "Snape's gang" in that context seems to imply that he was the leader and calling the shots, when that clearly isn't the case. I am inclined to take Sirius's comments with a huge pinch of salt because he hated Snape - the people he named as being part of the gang were all of different ages and none of this so cvalled gang were around at the time of SWM. I also think the comment about "more curses than half the seventh year kids" was not meant to be taken literally - just an indication that SNape knew some curses - more than you would expect of a first year. Given Lily's aversion to the Dark Arts I don't think that their friendship would have survived as long as it did had he been that into the Dark Arts that early on. By fifth year he is undoubtedly very into the Dark Arts and is an aspiring Death Eater, and that is when Lily breaks it off. To me this implies there is a progression from first year - that Fifth year Snape is very different from first year Snape, which is why Lily no longer wished to be his friend.

But she had already let him know that she hated what his friends were up to. She also says to him that she 'has made excuses for him' for years. It's precisely because she cares about Severus that she was a bit in denial about the extent of his Dark Arts obsession, I think. Now she can pretend no longer: there is something seriously wrong here. The fact that he turned on her publicly with that deadly insult (no matter how hurt and humiliated he felt -- and I do have great sympathy for Severus in that scene) was the last straw. She's only 16. It's understandable.

I don't see Lily as shallow, TGW. Maybe I'm a bit protective of the character because she's Harry's mum. :D And you know how daft I am about Harry. ;) But to me it really takes away something from the story if I thought Lily was acting in a shallow manner here. I really don't think that she is. A bit hasty and judgemental? -- yeah, possibly she is . But she did have just cause. She really did.

I agree. From what we are shown in the text, this was an ongoing conflict in their friendship. Snape demonstrated his prejudice towards muggles pretty much from the moment they met. Lily made excuses for Snape's behavior for years - she tried to talk to him about the horrible things he and his friends were doing. This was not just a one time deal - it was something that had been going on throughout their entire friendship. Snape calling her a mudblood was just the last straw - she couldn't make excuses for him anymore.

I agree with CathyWeasley. I think that if Severus had given all that rubbish up, he would have got Lily back ... as a friend, if not the romance he hoped for.

I think - after the mudblood insult - it would have been a long, hard haul for Snape to earn that friendship back. And I don't think it would have ever been a strong friendship because of those fundamental differences. It goes a lot deeper than the fact that Snape practiced the Dark Arts and planned to join the Death Eaters - his own personal values and beliefs are a factor in all of that. Would it really make any difference if he had stopped using the Dark Arts if he still believed they were "just a laugh"? Would it really make any difference if he dropped his plans to become a Death Eater if he still believed that all muggles and muggleborns were inferior? Both factors are significant because it wasn't just his actions - it was the fact that he believed those things as well.

TGW, that's not the only reason, IMO. Lily was prepared to re-evaluate James because she believed he had changed: she rejected him after SWM, remember???? She really tore him off a strip! Look, I don't like teenage James much. But I don't think his behaviour in SWM (which, believe me, I dislike intensely) is worse than what Mulciber and Avery were doing. And Severus laughs that off. He finds the Dark Magic practised on Mary McDonald 'funny'. Well, Lily doesn't find that funny, any more than she found James and Sirius picking on Severus funny (her lip may twitch during SWM but it's against her better judgement, surely) ... and she is right.

And it would take a lot for Lily to take Severus back. It would take no less than his giving up his dedication to the Dark Arts, aspiring to be a member of the wannabe Death Eaters and targetting Muggleborn students like herself!

She does give him a chance to speak, TGW. And he blows it. Why doesn't he deny that he wants to become a Death Eater? Why doesn't he promise Lily that he won't insult other Muggleborn students and not just her? And of course it's tragic. But for Severus to get Lily back, even as a friend, he would have had to give up his fascination with the elite gang shaping up to be Death Eaters. That's what it would have taken. However difficult a decision that would have been for him -- and it would have been! -- that would have been the right thing to do.

I agree for the most part - I like the Marauders as teenagers and adults so we'll just disagree there. ;) But I think the key factor there is that genuine change had to take place. It's not enough to put on a pretense and stop doing certain things just because it upset Lily. The beliefs and values are significant as well. As I said above, would it really have made any difference if he didn't become a Death Eater if he still believed that muggles and muggleborns were inferior? It's not just about changing your actions to be more socially acceptable - it's about genuine personal change - accepting that you are wrong and that those beliefs are wrong.

Nine, ten ... not much difference. :D :) (I didn't have the book on me earlier to check! :) )

But the text makes it clear that Ginny had a crush on Harry at the age of ten! The 'undisguised greed' on Snape's face has been interpreted in several ways by readers on this very thread ... it could mean romantic leanings, sure. I would not read anything more sinister into it than that: he's only TEN.

I wouldn't say sinister exactly - but it is quite disturbing. The fact that he's around 10 there only makes it worse, IMO. From what we are shown in the text, Snape was not interested in Lily as a person - a potential friend - he sees her as an object even at the age of 10. He stares at her "greedily" like he's a shiny new toy for him to possess and control. Snape demonstrates a level of manipulation and obsessiveness at such a young age that is disturbing. And we don't really see that change as he gets older. He never treats Lily like a person - her thoughts, opinions, and feelings don't matter to him at all. What we are shown with Snape - in regards to Lily - is manipulation and attempts to control. He created an image of her - what he thought she should be - and tried to mold her to fit that image.

That was teenage Severus. I do think there is a difference between him and Adult Severus.

I would have to disagree. One of the fundamental issues with Snape's character is the fact that he did not grow and mature - particularly in regards to his friendship with Lily and the schoolboy rivalry with the Marauders. Even as an adult, he holds onto petty, spiteful issues that he should have outgrown. A 35 year old man who is still obsessing over the fact that another boy was more popular than him in school and that the girl he was so obsessively in love with fell in love with that boy instead is not a good thing - it is not a sign of maturity. His transfer of that hatred to Harry is another mark of his immaturity. His hatred of Harry was unjustified - he was completely unable to separate Harry from his parents. All Snape could see when he looked at Harry was a living representation of the fact that he had lost the girl he was so obsessively in love with.

Or maybe he was referring to himself. It is just possible that Severus despised any possible hints of that in himself. And yes, I'm hypothesising ... but so are you. :)

At any rate, Adult Snape did not despise Lily Potter, the woman he'd loved and whose death (which he had indirectly brought about) he deeply regretted. IMO.

I think vivek has a good point there actually. Snape never demonstrated any such "weakness" in himself - not even as a child. He was always very closed off emotionally. From what we see in the text, Snape always looked down on anyone who showed such "weakness".

Snape's attitude in the Occlumency lesson is most fitting that he is referring to someone else rather than himself. It makes sense that he would see that as a weakness in Lily and possibly James as well. After all, James did what Snape never had the courage to even though he had been friends with Lily for years - James had the nerve to put himself on the line and ask Lily out on a date. Very badly done and certainly a poorly chosen moment to do so - but he put his heart out there and let Lily know he was interested.

Oh, absolutely that is true. No question. But, again ... this is Teenage (or Twentysomething) Snape that does those things. Not that Adult Snape is exactly dripping in compassion and empathy. :whistle: But he's not going around torturing and killing people either: he has put those ways behind him.

That's the question though isn't it? Had he really put that behind him? Did the desire to get revenge on Voldemort for Lily's death actually change anything he believed in? I honestly do not believe that it did. Snape's motivation was not genuine change in himself - he still believed in Voldemort's cause. His motivation was the desire for revenge because Voldemort broke his promise and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater.

What evidence do we have in canon that he 'wanted Lily by his side'? Are you referring to the fact that he wanted to save her initially but not James and Harry as well, when he met with Dumbledore on the hillside to beg him for help? All the canon we have is that he wanted to save Lily's life. We don't know anything more about what Snape fancied might happen after her life had been saved, because Rowling doesn't tell us anything more. Anything more is just our own speculation. Dumbledore rebukes him for being so grossly selfish as to not care about the deaths of James and Harry: and that is the turning point, right there. Snape agrees for Lily to be saved, even though that means he himself will never now get her.

Actually, it is most likely that the first meeting between Dumbledore and Snape was a set up. We have to remember that it was Voldemort's plan for Snape to gain Dumbledore's trust and get on the inside so he could spy. What better way for Snape to do that? At that point, Snape had no reason to turn on Voldemort - Voldemort had promised to spare Lily. It is most likely that Snape was just putting on a show at that point to gain Dumbledore's trust. The true turning point is after Voldemort broke his promise and Lily was dead - that is when the desire for revenge took over. After all, if Snape had truly wanted to help before Lily had died, he would have told Dumbledore about Pettigrew instead of withholding that information. That would have guaranteed Lily's safety - but it also would have guaranteed James and Harry's safety too.

Prior to that, it is most likely that Snape's plan - or strong hope if you would prefer - was that James and Harry would be killed and he could insinuate himself back into Lily's life. Again, we have to remember that Snape had convinced himself that Lily would be impressed if he became a powerful Death Eater. From Snape's perspective, Lily just needed to "come around" and be shown the "correct path".

Actually, it is most likely that the first meeting between Dumbledore and Snape was a set up. We have to remember that it was Voldemort's plan for Snape to gain Dumbledore's trust and get on the inside so he could spy. What better way for Snape to do that? At that point, Snape had no reason to turn on Voldemort - Voldemort had promised to spare Lily. It is most likely that Snape was just putting on a show at that point to gain Dumbledore's trust. The true turning point is after Voldemort broke his promise and Lily was dead - that is when the desire for revenge took over. After all, if Snape had truly wanted to help before Lily had died, he would have told Dumbledore about Pettigrew instead of withholding that information. That would have guaranteed Lily's safety - but it also would have guaranteed James and Harry's safety too.
Harry says in his scene with Voldenort "Snape was Dumbledore's from the moment you threatened my mother" There is nothing to contradict this. Nothing at all. If jo had wanted her readers to walk away with the idea that the first meeting with Dumbledore was a set up she would have had it revealed as such. It was not revealed as such. We are shown Snape's story in the Prince's Tale; we are shown what inferences Harry draws from what he sees in his final showdown with Voldemort; we are not shown anything - anything at all - to suggest that the meeting with Dumbledore was a set up. There is also nothing to suggest that Snape knew that Pettigrew was the real traitor. Nothing at all.

I don't see Lily as shallow, TGW. Maybe I'm a bit protective of the character because she's Harry's mum. :D And you know how daft I am about Harry. ;) But to me it really takes away something from the story if I thought Lily was acting in a shallow manner here. I really don't think that she is. A bit hasty and judgemental? -- yeah, possibly she is . But she did have just cause. She really did.

Well, Harry's my favourite too, next to Snape. :) And I don' see Lily as shallow, well not now. :)

But, I do think that Lily in a way was hasty and a bit too judgemental, and I make this complaint mainly because she took a decision that was correct as far as only she was concerned, but did not handle the break up properly as far as friendship was concerned, that I now believe she valued very much not only in the begining (that I believed all along but I am now begining to think that she may have hurt almost as much as Snape did, for the friendship she broke off) IMO.

But I still feel that she gave up on him a bit too soon and decided that he was not worth the effort. While I am not disputing the fact that she was right to end a friendship she did not want, I still feel, that she could have done a bit more. :)

TGW, that's not the only reason, IMO. Lily was prepared to re-evaluate James because she believed he had changed: she rejected him after SWM, remember???? She really tore him off a strip! Look, I don't like teenage James much. But I don't think his behaviour in SWM (which, believe me, I dislike intensely) is worse than what Mulciber and Avery were doing. And Severus laughs that off. He finds the Dark Magic practised on Mary McDonald 'funny'. Well, Lily doesn't find that funny, any more than she found James and Sirius picking on Severus funny (her lip may twitch during SWM but it's against her better judgement, surely) ... and she is right.

I agrree with you that Lily was prepared to re-evaluate James and gave him another chance and he took that and everything worked out well; but I also think that was because she had fallen for James and was thinking him in a romantic manner. And such feelings IMO usually make us see those whom we have such feelings for, very differently ad also give them chances we would not gusually give others IMO.

And I am not defending Snape's actions as right; I am merely saying that I feel Lily did not end the friendship properly and because of the way she ended it, I feel that she would not have acepted Snape back as her friend again. And I think Snape knew it too; that was why he never makes an attempt to talk to her again; at least we don't see that in canon.

And it would take a lot for Lily to take Severus back. It would take no less than his giving up his dedication to the Dark Arts, aspiring to be a member of the wannabe Death Eaters and targetting Muggleborn students like herself!

Yes, Snape would have; he did come away from the Dark the moment he knew Lily was targeted; but he does not approach her, does not even send her an owl, telling her that she was targeted and that Voldemort had access to them, through a traitor in the Order. He goes to Dumbledore and warns her through him. The fact he owns up to Dumbledore and does not mind being killed, makes me feel that he would have also done the same to Lily; but the fact he comes to Dumbledore instead of going to her, makes me feel that he was sure she would never acept him and to save her, he needed to go to someone else and he goes to Dumbledore IMO.

IThat's the question though isn't it? Had he really put that behind him? Did the desire to get revenge on Voldemort for Lily's death actually change anything he believed in? I honestly do not believe that it did. Snape's motivation was not genuine change in himself - he still believed in Voldemort's cause. His motivation was the desire for revenge because Voldemort broke his promise and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater.

I respectfully disagree with you. I don't think Snape was on Voldemort's side, because Harry would not name his son after a man who fought for and believed in Voldemort's principles until he died. If Snape was truly Voldemort's man, I think it makes Harry and DUmbledore pretty foolish, especialy Dumbledore for trusting Snape for all those years IMO.:)

Originally Posted by meesha1971
IThat's the question though isn't it? Had he really put that behind him? Did the desire to get revenge on Voldemort for Lily's death actually change anything he believed in?

For me that's not a question at all. It was resolved in DH, pretty conclusively. If it were left up hanging, it would make no sense for all those conclusive actions and words of Harry's regarding Snape to be in the book.

It has been brought to my attention that some of my comments have been taken as personal attacks on posters. I just wanted to say that it is never my intention to attack anyone personally. If any posters have been offended by anything in any of my posts then I offer my sincere apologies

I have posted your original comment with the phrase "Snape's gang" in it. I am sorry if I misunderstand , but by calling it "Snape's gang" in that context seems to imply that he was the leader and calling the shots, when that clearly isn't the case.
I said 'Snape's gang' because I didn't want to type out 'the gang of Slytherins that Snape used to hang out with'. :lol: Wish I'd done that then, it would've saved me all this typing. :grumble: I thought it was given that Snape wasn't the leader. Why would I say that?

Though, technically, one might argue that Snape did belong to the gang, and there's nothing that suggests he was not the leader. :evil:

I am inclined to take Sirius's comments with a huge pinch of salt because he hated Snape - the people he named as being part of the gang were all of different ages and none of this so cvalled gang were around at the time of SWM.
Sirius does call Snape 'Malfoy's lapdog'. We see Lucius welcoming Snape into the Slytherin house, and Avery is mentioned as being a member of this gang. We know that Snape, Avery and Mulciber used to hang out together. The DEs are of different ages. For example, Regulus Black was one, and he was younger than any of them. They're all in the same house, and I don't see how them being of different age prevents them from forming a gang. The DA, which was essentially a gang, had students from many years - Colin from a year below Harry's and the Twins, Lee and Cho, who were older.

I also think the comment about "more curses than half the seventh year kids" was not meant to be taken literally - just an indication that Snape knew some curses - more than you would expect of a first year.
Snape was inventing dark curses by his fifth year, something that most seventh year students don't manage. It's also said that James's loathing of Snape, which started very early, stemmed from his involvement in the Dark Arts. While Sirius might have been exaggerating, it does sound like something that Snape would do, and be capable of.

Given Lily's aversion to the Dark Arts I don't think that their friendship would have survived as long as it did had he been that into the Dark Arts that early on. By fifth year he is undoubtedly very into the Dark Arts and is an aspiring Death Eater, and that is when Lily breaks it off. To me this implies there is a progression from first year - that Fifth year Snape is very different from first year Snape, which is why Lily no longer wished to be his friend.
I do agree that there was a progression, but I don't think that it was a radical change that started in fifth year. For one, Lily mentions making excuses for Snape 'for years'. Also, the werewolf prank also seems to have occured before fifth year, which is when the marauders became animagi. Lupin mentions that James saved Snape at great risk to his life, which wouldn't be the case if James were already an animagus. Besides, Lily was in denial about it, IMO.

I don't see Lily as shallow, TGW. Maybe I'm a bit protective of the character because she's Harry's mum. :D And you know how daft I am about Harry. ;) But to me it really takes away something from the story if I thought Lily was acting in a shallow manner here. I really don't think that she is. A bit hasty and judgemental? -- yeah, possibly she is . But she did have just cause. She really did.
Exactly. It doesn't make any sense to show Lily as being that conniving. She acts like a 15 year old girl who was racially insulted by someone she considered her best friend. To say that she 'used' this 'opportunity', that doesn't fit at all into how Lily is portrayed.

But the text makes it clear that Ginny had a crush on Harry at the age of ten! The 'undisguised greed' on Snape's face has been interpreted in several ways by readers on this very thread ... it could mean romantic leanings, sure. I would not read anything more sinister into it than that: he's only TEN.
IMO, it's not a coincidence that Ginny's crush is portrayed far more flatteringly than Snape's. Harry's feelings for Cho are described in a positive way as well. Yet, Jo chooses a feeling that is considered one of the vices and a deadly sin, as what Snape feels towards Lily.

That was teenage Severus. I do think there is a difference between him and Adult Severus.
Is there much of a difference? :lol: Adult Snape acts like a child with a grudge most of the time, except that he's a child in a position of authority and power. I dont think that he ever really grew up. His vocabulary has definitely improved though. Earlier, he's seen condoning bullying behaviour in Avery and Mulciber, and as an adult, he does it himself, as well as covering for the Slytherin students' similar actions, while bullying students himself.

Snape doesn't think that compassion is a praiseworthy trait. Doesn't he take points off Hermione for helping Neville with his potion or something? Snape as a teenager had no compassion for the victims of his friends' bullying, or for the countless people that the Death Eaters were murdering.

What evidence do we have in canon that he 'wanted Lily by his side'? Are you referring to the fact that he wanted to save her initially but not James and Harry as well, when he met with Dumbledore on the hillside to beg him for help?
No, actually, I was thinking about the time Snape tried to convince Lily to be in Slytherin, and about later when he tries to convince her that using Dark Magic to bully students is funny. Obviously, he wanted Lily as his own, and I don't think that he wanted Lily to criticise his every action, telling him that it was wrong, all the time.

But, I do think that Lily in a way was hasty and a bit too judgemental, and I make this complaint mainly because she took a decision that was correct as far as only she was concerned, but did not handle the break up properly as far as friendship was concerned, that I now believe she valued very much not only in the begining (that I believed all along but I am now begining to think that she may have hurt almost as much as Snape did, for the friendship she broke off) IMO.
IMO, it only seems hasty if you assume that everything had been just fine between them until that point. We're shown that this was not the case. Lily is shown to have been making excuses for years, which would undoubtedly add to her resentment at his actions, and his not trying to understand her at all. I think that she showed remarkable restraint for a 15 year old. She does not attack him or anything, and she shows him the courtsey of honouring his request and showing up. And when she does show up, all Snape does is apologise for insulting her. He does not show any sign of having seen the error of his ways. He still thinks of muggleborns as mudbloods, and is still bent on joining Voldemort. IMO, it might have made a difference if he'd shown geniune regret for those things, but as it were, he only regretted calling her a mudblood.

But I still feel that she gave up on him a bit too soon and decided that he was not worth the effort. While I am not disputing the fact that she was right to end a friendship she did not want, I still feel, that she could have done a bit more. :)
Lily had spent a third of her life trying to reform Snape. I don't see how that's giving up too soon. She remained his friend right until the moment he turned on her. She disapproved of his attitude towards her sister, towards her friends, towards James.

I agrree with you that Lily was prepared to re-evaluate James and gave him another chance and he took that and everything worked out well; but I also think that was because she had fallen for James and was thinking him in a romantic manner. And such feelings IMO usually make us see those whom we have such feelings for, very differently ad also give them chances we would not gusually give others IMO.
I agree that Lily had a soft-spot for James, but I doubt that she would have let those feelings come in the way of her better judgement, especially after she'd already made a similar mistake with Snape. IMO, if SWM had not occured, Lily would have got together with James sooner, because she would not have been jaded by her friend's betrayal.

However, it was a very important factor that James was nowhere as bad as Snape had become. Sure, the bullying part was pretty bad, but the DE's actions far surpassed any sort of schoolyard bullying and petty offenses. We see James standing up for Lily, who had been insulting him, when Snape makes the mudblood comment. IMO, James would have done that for anyone, regardless of romantic feelings. He was willing to risk his life to save his worst enemy from death. Lily knew that, and admired it about him. Plus, James made a genuine attempt to change because her words showed him just how bad he had become.

Yes, Snape would have; he did come away from the Dark the moment he knew Lily was targeted; but he does not approach her, does not even send her an owl, telling her that she was targeted and that Voldemort had access to them, through a traitor in the Order.
I don't think that he wanted Lily to see that he had gone on to become what she hated - a death eater. Nor did he expect Lily to heed his warnings.

I respectfully disagree with you. I don't think Snape was on Voldemort's side, because Harry would not name his son after a man who fought for and believed in Voldemort's principles until he died. If Snape was truly Voldemort's man, I think it makes Harry and DUmbledore pretty foolish, especialy Dumbledore for trusting Snape for all those years IMO.:)
IMO, the text does allow for the interpretation that Snape was working for himself. It's possible that Dumbledore set Snape up to die, with the Elder Wand, because he didn't want to risk Snape reverting to the Dark Arts once Voldemort was gone. After all, Dumbledore didn't trust Snape where the Dark Arts were involved.

I think - after the mudblood insult - it would have been a long, hard haul for Snape to earn that friendship back. And I don't think it would have ever been a strong friendship because of those fundamental differences. It goes a lot deeper than the fact that Snape practiced the Dark Arts and planned to join the Death Eaters - his own personal values and beliefs are a factor in all of that. Would it really make any difference if he had stopped using the Dark Arts if he still believed they were "just a laugh"? Would it really make any difference if he dropped his plans to become a Death Eater if he still believed that all muggles and muggleborns were inferior? Both factors are significant because it wasn't just his actions - it was the fact that he believed those things as well.
That's a very good point about the fundamental differences. :tu: IMO, Snape's continued insistence that he didn't mean to call her mudblood only convinced Lily that he would never really understand her concerns. He had essentially shown himself incapable of changing his attitude on Voldemort and about muggleborns.


I wouldn't say sinister exactly - but it is quite disturbing. The fact that he's around 10 there only makes it worse, IMO. From what we are shown in the text, Snape was not interested in Lily as a person - a potential friend - he sees her as an object even at the age of 10. He stares at her "greedily" like he's a shiny new toy for him to possess and control. Snape demonstrates a level of manipulation and obsessiveness at such a young age that is disturbing.
I agree with this as well. Snape came across as creepy in that first scene, IMO.

His motivation was the desire for revenge because Voldemort broke his promise and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater.
I'd like to add that his personal involvement, of carrying to prophecy to Voldemort's ears, was a huge factor as well. After all, Lily had been in danger plenty of times before. It's hard to believe that Snape, a member of Voldemort's inner circle, did not know that Lily and James had defied Voldemort thrice, and thus were already at risk. It looks as if Snape didn't care about it, until he became responsible. IMO, if there had been no prophecy, and Lily and James had been killed by Voldemort, Snape wouldn't have cared.

Prior to that, it is most likely that Snape's plan - or strong hope if you would prefer - was that James and Harry would be killed and he could insinuate himself back into Lily's life. Again, we have to remember that Snape had convinced himself that Lily would be impressed if he became a powerful Death Eater. From Snape's perspective, Lily just needed to "come around" and be shown the "correct path".
It's possible. Dumbledore does put in a dig about Snape trusting Voldemort, when he tells him about Lily's death.

Actually, it is most likely that the first meeting between Dumbledore and Snape was a set up. We have to remember that it was Voldemort's plan for Snape to gain Dumbledore's trust and get on the inside so he could spy. What better way for Snape to do that? At that point, Snape had no reason to turn on Voldemort - Voldemort had promised to spare Lily. It is most likely that Snape was just putting on a show at that point to gain Dumbledore's trust. The true turning point is after Voldemort broke his promise and Lily was dead - that is when the desire for revenge took over. After all, if Snape had truly wanted to help before Lily had died, he would have told Dumbledore about Pettigrew instead of withholding that information. That would have guaranteed Lily's safety - but it also would have guaranteed James and Harry's safety too.

I have to agree with Cathy here, Meesha. :) There is no canon to prove these points, IMO. I particularly don't understand your theory that Snape knew about Pettigrew and withheld that information from Dumbledore. :shrug: That would change the story completely if he had! Goodness ... if Snape had known at the outset that Peter was the traitor, responsible for the death of his beloved Lily, then I believe that Death Eater Snape would have found some way to pay Peter back for that -- and how!

IMO, it's not a coincidence that Ginny's crush is portrayed far more flatteringly than Snape's. Harry's feelings for Cho are described in a positive way as well. Yet, Jo chooses a feeling that is considered one of the vices and a deadly sin, as what Snape feels towards Lily.

Sure ... Rowling portrays Snape as a darker character than Ginny, Harry or Cho, I'm not disputing that. :D But my own interpretation of Snape does not make me subscribe the darkest of all possible motives to him all of the time. :)

IMO, the text does allow for the interpretation that Snape was working for himself. It's possible that Dumbledore set Snape up to die, with the Elder Wand, because he didn't want to risk Snape reverting to the Dark Arts once Voldemort was gone. After all, Dumbledore didn't trust Snape where the Dark Arts were involved.

If Albus didn't trust Snape at all with the DADA job, how come he assigned the job to him in Harry's sixth year? :huh: -- at a time, what's more, when both Snape and DD are aware of the task Draco has been set, to murder Albus? Albus's trust in Severus was more needed than ever! But this discussion is for the Snape thread, really. :cool:

I agree with this as well. Snape came across as creepy in that first scene, IMO.

Well, each to their own. :) I mostly found it sad. The child is ten, and desperate for friendship.

IMO, if there had been no prophecy, and Lily and James had been killed by Voldemort, Snape wouldn't have cared.

But that theory completely ignores the plot that Rowling has set up! :huh: -- that Snape worked for Albus to defeat Voldemort because he had loved Lily. As Harry said, Snape was Dumbledore's from the moment Voldemort started hunting Lily down. :cool:

I said 'Snape's gang' because I didn't want to type out 'the gang of Slytherins that Snape used to hang out with'. Wish I'd done that then, it would've saved me all this typing. I thought it was given that Snape wasn't the leader. Why would I say that? :blush: Okay sorry!

Sirius does call Snape 'Malfoy's lapdog'. We see Lucius welcoming Snape into the Slytherin house, and Avery is mentioned as being a member of this gang. We know that Snape, Avery and Mulciber used to hang out together. The DEs are of different ages. For example, Regulus Black was one, and he was younger than any of them. They're all in the same house, and I don't see how them being of different age prevents them from forming a gang. The DA, which was essentially a gang, had students from many years - Colin from a year below Harry's and the Twins, Lee and Cho, who were older.

Snape was inventing dark curses by his fifth year, something that most seventh year students don't manage. It's also said that James's loathing of Snape, which started very early, stemmed from his involvement in the Dark Arts. While Sirius might have been exaggerating, it does sound like something that Snape would do, and be capable of.

I wasn't really saying that Sirius was wrong - just that his comments aren't necessarily exposition or rather that I don't think JKR was using Sirius to give an accurate assessment of Snape. I'm sure Snape knew Dark Curses in first year and we certainly know he was inventing them by fifth year. I guess it's just that sometimes those words of Sirius are taken literally when IMO they were not meant to be taken literally - that's all :)

I disagree that James's loathing of Snape stemmed from his interest in the Dark Arts. The scene we are shown on the Hogwarts Express has James being contemptuous of any one who wants to join a particular house - Slytherin. At that point James knows nothing about Snape other than he wants to be in Slytherin. What James expresses is basically a prejudice against Slytherin house. Now I'm not saying that that was why he loathed Snape - just that we see James dislike of Snape based solely on Snape's choice of house.
I do agree that there was a progression, but I don't think that it was a radical change that started in fifth year. For one, Lily mentions making excuses for Snape 'for years'. Also, the werewolf prank also seems to have occured before fifth year, which is when the marauders became animagi. Lupin mentions that James saved Snape at great risk to his life, which wouldn't be the case if James were already an animagus. Besides, Lily was in denial about it, IMO.
I agree that it wasn't a radical change in the fifth year - that there was a gradual change from first to fifth year - so gradual that Lily being close to Severus couldn't see it until it turned round and bit her. On a side note - I thought that the werewolf prank was in fifth year - just that it happened before SWM which was at the end of the year. The impression I got of the tunnel under the whomping willow was that it was not large enough to accomodate a stag so James couldn't have transformed anyway. In DH Harry Ron and Hermione have to crawl along on their hands and knees to get to the shack.

Snape doesn't think that compassion is a praiseworthy trait. Doesn't he take points off Hermione for helping Neville with his potion or something? Snape as a teenager had no compassion for the victims of his friends' bullying, or for the countless people that the Death Eaters were murdering.
I disagree. I think that Snape does learn that compassion is a good thing - remember his "Only those I can't save" comment - that cries out compassion to me.
I regarded his taking points off Hermione for helping Neville was because he saw it as cheating - that IMO is the way Snape saw things like that - probably because he was a laoner who liked to work on his own and he expected other people to be like that as well - not fair I know, but I thinbk that was how he was.

IMO, it only seems hasty if you assume that everything had been just fine between them until that point. We're shown that this was not the case. Lily is shown to have been making excuses for years, which would undoubtedly add to her resentment at his actions, and his not trying to understand her at all. I think that she showed remarkable restraint for a 15 year old. She does not attack him or anything, and she shows him the courtsey of honouring his request and showing up. And when she does show up, all Snape does is apologise for insulting her. He does not show any sign of having seen the error of his ways. He still thinks of muggleborns as mudbloods, and is still bent on joining Voldemort. IMO, it might have made a difference if he'd shown geniune regret for those things, but as it were, he only regretted calling her a mudblood.

I think everything was fine between them until the werewolf incident. Around that time IMO was the start of the breaking of the friendship. And while I agree Snape did not understand her moving away from him, I think it was because he may have felrt that she knew everything and until then she was okay with it. She knew he called others mudblood, she IMO must have known that Snape liked the dark arts, and she knew he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber.

Snape had not hidden anything from her IMO. She was probably the one person who knew everything IMO about Snape.

I think that was one reason he did not understand or comprehend when she broke off; because she was in his mind breaking off for stuff she had known before IMO. That could also be one reason he never argued back or defended himself, because I feel he did not know how to.

But to say they were not friends for a long time and Lily was simply hanging around with aboy who was in Slytherin, only to make excuses for him for years is something I really don't agree with.

Lily had spent a third of her life trying to reform Snape. I don't see how that's giving up too soon. She remained his friend right until the moment he turned on her. She disapproved of his attitude towards her sister, towards her friends, towards James.

I respectfully disagree. I have stated my reason above. :)

I agree that Lily had a soft-spot for James, but I doubt that she would have let those feelings come in the way of her better judgement, especially after she'd already made a similar mistake with Snape. IMO, if SWM had not occured, Lily would have got together with James sooner, because she would not have been jaded by her friend's betrayal.

I respectfully disagree. No one was forcing her to be friends with Snape IMO. If Lily was Snape's friend for over six years, when they were in different Houses, and was so different from snape, she could have very well broken off her friendship with him, once she was sorted in Gryffindor and he in Slytherin. The fact she kept the friendship with him and held him as her best friends for this long tells me that she wanted that friendship with Snape. Snape satisfied her and made her happy in a way no one from Gryffindor was able to IMO and she was content to be best friends with him for over six years, and probably kep the friendship with him even when others in Gryffindor would have warned her against it IMO.

But yes, I agree with you, that it was her soft spot that she developed for James that IMO ultimately drove her away from Snape.

Otherwise too, she may have broken off had he become a DE, but certainly not after the SWM IMO, when Snape was NOT a DE and he was NOT doing any dark magic. He was however hanging out with those who did. He called her a dirty name, but I think she would have forgiven him, after a proper dressing down of course, and warnoing him never to do that again. That was the first and only time he called her that and that too when his own position was very humiliating and patheic. I think Lily would have understood. :)

I think everything was fine between them until the werewolf incident. Around that time IMO was the start of the breaking of the friendship. And while I agree Snape did not understand her moving away from him, I think it was because he may have felrt that she knew everything and until then she was okay with it. She knew he called others mudblood, she IMO must have known that Snape liked the dark arts, and she knew he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber.

But she wasn't okay with it. She tells him, in no uncertain terms, that she can't understand how he can be friends with Avery and Mulciber and that what they did to Mary McDonald was 'evil'.

I respectfully disagree. No one was forcing her to be friends with Snape IMO. If Lily was Snape's friend for over six years, when they were in different Houses, and was so different from snape, she could have very well broken off her friendship with him, once she was sorted in Gryffindor and he in Slytherin. The fact she kept the friendship with him and held him as her best friends for this long tells me that she wanted that friendship with Snape. Snape satisfied her and made her happy in a way no one from Gryffindor was able to IMO and she was content to be best friends with him for over six years, and probably kep the friendship with him even when others in Gryffindor would have warned her against it IMO.

I do agree that Lily cared about Severus and that is why she remained friends with him for so long. :) But I also think cracks were showing in the friendship before SWM.

I guess, on this issue, you and I will have to agree to disagree. :) :huggles:

But she wasn't okay with it.

From when? :)

She tells him, in no uncertain terms, that she can't understand how he can be friends with Avery and Mulciber and that what they did to Mary McDonald was 'evil'

See, that's question that's confusing IMO. Lily was trying for *years* and still she was his best friend. If that's true, then in Snape's mind Lily knew everything and she was still his best friend. Then for the same reasons she broke off IMO. I think that's why Snape could not say a word in defence; what could he say, she knew everything, she had been his friend, reassured him when he had a doubt and then broke off with hi IMO.

He also knew that James Potter had a crush on her and he suspected she may have one on him too, but he never doubted his friendship with her. Because everytime he may have (starting IMO from the werewolf incident) Lily assures him he's her best friend; and then in Snape's mind, she breaks off suddenly IMO.

If Lily had not been trying for years, then she was okay with him as he was, was the point I was trying to make. :)

I do think Lily loved him for what he was until their fifth year around the shack incident.

I also think that Snape respected her as much as he loved her and he agreed with her decision to break off and let it be; only he could not break off with the other set of people who were not his close friends, but apart from whom, he had no one IMO.

And that's why he also never sought her out to restore their friendship. I think he knew she would not accept him anymore.

And Pearl, I don't blame Lily; I feel this may be the reason, because this explains why Snape never tried in the next 2 years, why he never chose her and left Avery and Mulcibr in the next 2 years they were in School and try to win her friendship and love back.

He loved her so much. That's clear, but he never tries; and there must IMO be a reason for that, otherwise his love could not be true or strong; and yet it was, true and strong, lasting 20 years after she broke off with him, and 18 years after she died.

I think Snape recognized she had fallen for James and could not accept him any longer, and stayed away. That was another reason he chose Avery and Mulciber, he could never get his love, he did not want to lose the power and equal staus in the WW IMO.

I do agree that Lily cared about Severus and that is why she remained friends with him for so long. :) But I also think cracks were showing in the friendship before SWM.

Before the SWM, I agree fully with you. I think the cracks started from the werewolf incident and broke the night of the SWM.

I guess, on this issue, you and I will have to agree to disagree. :) :huggles:

:huggles: Agree to disagree, but it's fun to talk different theories. :)

He loved her so much. That's clear, but he never tries; and there must IMO be a reason for that, otherwise his love could not be true or strong; and yet it was, true and strong, lasting 20 years after she broke off with him, and 18 years after she died.
I always thought that the reason for him not trying was because he couldn't see that what he was doing was wrong. He continued to aspire to be a Death Eater and ultimately became one. I think that he thought that one day Lily would see things from his point of view, but until she did - until she came to him to make up the friendship - he would think that she just didn't understand. I also think that his low self-esteem would have made him think that she wouldn't be interested in resuming the friendship, so unlike James he wouldn't have bothered her to resume their friendship in the way that James bothered her to go out with him. I think his lack of self confidence was a big factor, and I believe he thought "When I am a big impressive Death Eater then I Lily will 'see' " He didn't believe he was enough on his own, as he was; he thought he had to be something more - a Death Eater.

I agree with that CathyWeasly but I just have one disagreement. I don't think he knew he was on his way to b e a deatheater AT THE TIME. I think he was more in to the fact that he thought he had his prioritie straight and took advatage that he thought the bond ws too strong to end. And so he didn't think what he was doing was wrong. I don't think it was his fault more tan Lily's that the friendship ended.

Lily was trying for *years* and still she was his best friend. If that's true, then in Snape's mind Lily knew everything and she was still his best friend. Then for the same reasons she broke off IMO.
If that were the case, I think that would make Snape incredibly selfish to continue doing the things he knew bothered Lily so much. I don't put it past him at all though, so I can see that interpretation as possible.

If Lily had not been trying for years, then she was okay with him as he was, was the point I was trying to make. :)
She wasn't okay with it though. The argument before SWM made it very clea imo that she was not okay with what Avery and Mulciber were doing, and was not okay with Snape hanging around with them and finding dark magic funny. She wasn't okay with the branch that almost fell on Petunia either - very early on in their friendship. I think she realised as she grew up and gained wisdom and maturity, that it was foolish to hold onto someone simply because they were an old friend, despite the fact that they were doing horrible things to others and planned on making a living on it. I think she tried to put a blind spot where Snape's interests were concerned "for years", and focused on his other sides. However I think eventually that was all she could see, and she realised she couldn't change the fact.

I do think Lily loved him for what he was until their fifth year around the shack incident.
I don't think Snape not being grateful to James, and trying to get the marauders expelled (which is what Snape did that Lily objected to in the shack incident), is what made Lily stop loving him - I think it was his obsessesion with the dark arts, the friends he made and the activities he did with them, his aspiration to become a death eater, and the fact he never bothered to listen to her when she tried to tell him these things bothered her.

I also think that Snape respected her as much as he loved her and he agreed with her decision to break off and let it be; only he could not break off with the other set of people who were not his close friends, but apart from whom, he had no one IMO.
I don't think Snape ever respected Lily for who she was. I never saw respect coming from him during their friendship, nor after. As youngsters, he doesn't show any concern when Lily is upset over Petunia. I got the impression that he would be happier if Lily never had a sister, which is clearly not Lily's opinion. In the next scene, he doesn't listen to her concerns as she tries to talk to him - IMO, not listening to someone, ignoring their concerns, and changing the subject whenever they tried to express their thoughts, is incredibly disrespectful. I don't think Snape ever respected Lily's decision to leave him and "let it be". He hexed James in seventh year(when Lily started dating James) at every opportunity, which I think had a lot to do with jealousy. He requested to Voldemort to save her in exchange for James and her son. And when Harry came to school, he bullied him and treated him terribly just "for existing" and looking like his father. The greatest sign of disrespect Snape showed towards Lily, was the way he treated the son she had died for IMO.


And that's why he also never sought her out to restore their friendship. I think he knew she would not accept him anymore.

And Pearl, I don't blame Lily; I feel this may be the reason, because this explains why Snape never tried in the next 2 years, why he never chose her and left Avery and Mulcibr in the next 2 years they were in School and try to win her friendship and love back.

He loved her so much. That's clear, but he never tries; and there must IMO be a reason for that, otherwise his love could not be true or strong; and yet it was, true and strong, lasting 20 years after she broke off with him, and 18 years after she died.
We don't know if Snape ever tried to speak to Lily again, we also do not know if he didn't either. Hexing James in seventh year at every opportunity makes me suspicious though, as well as asking Voldemort to spare her in exchange for her husband and son.

Before the SWM, I agree fully with you. I think the cracks started from the werewolf incident and broke the night of the SWM.
I didn't really get the impression that in the fight scene before SWM, Lily was talking to him about those concerns for the first time. I always thought she had spoken with him about them before. That was just my interpretation though.

You know when you put it that way, I can completely see Lily's side. I think I always focus on Snape and his feelings and forget about what Lily must have gone through. I need to examine her as well. And in doing so, I see exactly where you are coming from. She tried to do what she could but felt him a lost cause and ended things.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out. :) It's hard to look at Lily's side because we aren't as aware of who she was and what happened to her after she ended the friendship, but I do think there was stress on her side as well. How many people can watch someone going on the wrong path without feeling anything? I always felt that Lily most likely dealt with stress when she was aware of the person that Snape was becoming and tried to hide from that fact. The Mudblood incident just made her realize that he had gone too far and that the friendship needed to end. I don't think that there was no pain on her side. Family and friends are always hurt when they see someone they love and care about doing something that they know is wrong.

And, really, imagine if Lily knew that she wanted to fight Voldemort actively. She had a suspicion that Snape wanted to be a Death Eater and if she knew that she was going to be on the opposing side, I cannot imagine it being easy for her to know who Snape was becoming.

I don't know if Lily hated dark magic, but I think she detested Avery and Mulciber and she is opposing Snape's friendship with them. She was unable to accept it, which IMO is perfectly understandable.

She did hate the Dark Arts. She considered them to be "evil" and JKR said that had Snape not been attracted to loathsome people and acts Lily may have developed feelings for Snape. Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts contributed to the end of their friendship.

If Lily had not been trying for years, then she was okay with him as he was, was the point I was trying to make. :)

In my opinion Lily was never okay with what Snape did. If she was, why did she make excuses for him? An excuse is meant to serve as a justification for something, and Lily tried to use that with her friends. Never was Lily okay with what he did, for if she was, then she wouldn't have broken off the friendship. She made it clear that she thought what he was doing was wrong and ended the friendship because of that.

See, that's question that's confusing IMO. Lily was trying for *years* and still she was his best friend. If that's true, then in Snape's mind Lily knew everything and she was still his best friend. Then for the same reasons she broke off IMO. I think that's why Snape could not say a word in defence; what could he say, she knew everything, she had been his friend, reassured him when he had a doubt and then broke off with hi IMO.

He also knew that James Potter had a crush on her and he suspected she may have one on him too, but he never doubted his friendship with her. Because everytime he may have (starting IMO from the werewolf incident) Lily assures him he's her best friend; and then in Snape's mind, she breaks off suddenly IMO.

If Lily had not been trying for years, then she was okay with him as he was, was the point I was trying to make. :)

I do think Lily loved him for what he was until their fifth year around the shack incident.

I also think that Snape respected her as much as he loved her and he agreed with her decision to break off and let it be; only he could not break off with the other set of people who were not his close friends, but apart from whom, he had no one IMO.

And that's why he also never sought her out to restore their friendship. I think he knew she would not accept him anymore.

And Pearl, I don't blame Lily; I feel this may be the reason, because this explains why Snape never tried in the next 2 years, why he never chose her and left Avery and Mulcibr in the next 2 years they were in School and try to win her friendship and love back.

He loved her so much. That's clear, but he never tries; and there must IMO be a reason for that, otherwise his love could not be true or strong; and yet it was, true and strong, lasting 20 years after she broke off with him, and 18 years after she died.

I think Snape recognized she had fallen for James and could not accept him any longer, and stayed away. That was another reason he chose Avery and Mulciber, he could never get his love, he did not want to lose the power and equal staus in the WW IMO.

So let's explore this theory a little further :). Here is a possible scenario (click on the arrow)

Based on Lily's character, for her to have fallen for James after SWM, imo, James would have had to have returned to Gryffindor sometime during the afternoon following SWM and admitted to Lily that he thought all she had said about him was true, imo. This is because he would have had to have shown some type of recognition of his behavior and desire to change (which is what she was looking for in both James and Snape, imo).

So saying that is what happened, the conversation could have begun by James saying something along the lines of "I'm glad you think so little of me if you cannot see the distinction between my acts and those of Snape". He could have then pointed out that Snape had used dark magic during their confrontation, called her a Mudblood and that it was all based in his being a budding Death Eater. Lily would have little in the way of defending herself because imo, she agreed with all of that (these are the same things she accused Snape of doing in their conversation about the werewolf incident - including making the distinction between light and dark magic - DH -TPT). So then James would have the prime opportunity to admit he was wrong and save her from having to defend herself. She forgives him, see's he has recognized his wrongs, falls for him and determines that she wishes to be around James - and other like James - rather than Snape.

Now later, imo, Lily's friends would definitely have spoken to her about Snape as well; pointing out that he'd not only shown prejudice to others in the past, but now to her as well. They would highlight the fact that he openly used dark curses (sectumsempra in SWM) and that he hung around Mulciber and Avery (and possibly others who were not as good of friends) that were all budding Death Eaters.

So Lily, having fallen for James and listened to her friends, would decide that they were all right and it was time to end her friendship with Snape. Mainly, because she wished to see if James were serious in all he had said to her and truly was going to show change (which he later does).

Thus, Lily breaks off her friendship with Snape and thereafter focuses all of her attention on James and eventually they get together. OR - because of their chat, things picked up immediately and Lily fell for James; thus, because James had already fallen for Lily, they got together and carried on a relationship in secret for all of 6th year only revealing themselves in 7th.

Meanwhile, as stated in the theory, "Snape recognized she had fallen for James and could not accept him any longer, and stayed away and he respected her as much as he loved her and he agreed with her decision to break off and let it be."

So that is a possible scenario. But here are the problems I see:

First, why would Lily wait an entire year before actually dating James if she had fallen for him already? Imo, in 6th year he showed definite improvement or Dumbledore would not have made him head boy (over all of the prefects), so wouldn't she have begun immediately dating him in 6th as they would have both 'fallen' at that time and he proved he'd changed?

Second, if Lily had fallen for James and saw his improvement on the afternoon of SWM, wouldn't they have at least become more friendly? And if so, wouldn't Snape had started up his hexing James at every opportunity in 6th rather than 7th out of jealousy?

Third, the part of your theory that Snape 'allowed Lily to break off the friendship and let it be' does not jive with his hexing James at every opportunity in 7th...doesn't his action show that he was jealous and angry with James for dating her and that he still had feelings for her himself? Imo, it shows that Snape had not determined that he would simply 'let things be' and stay away. (OOTP - Careers Advice)

Finally, and most importantly, would Lily be able to douse her anger on the day of SWM and actually fall for James shortly after that event? It seems like that would be a little fast and that neither Lily nor James would wish to speak with one another for at least a day or two after that. James was arrogant enough to feel belittled and humiliated by her comments made before the crowd, imo; and Lily seemed stubborn enough to remain angry at James at least for a day before recognizing that he'd been defending her and separate that from his deliquent acts which to her were not as bad as the dark arts acts that Snape was involved in, imo. And in as far as the alternate scenario goes, I don't think the secret relationship theory is very feasible because James' friends were too close to him not to have figured it out.

Conclusion:

So while I could find some basis for Lily falling for James before her talk with Snape (like the above scenario), imo, it is not highly probable that Lily fell for James so quickly and Snape was able to sense it and thus let their friendship end. And Snape really did not remain inactive about it (let it lie) because he went on to curse James at every opportunity in 7th which imo was directly related to his ongoing feelings for Lily.

While I don't see this scenario or one like it highly probable based on the characters involved as presented in canon, I agree, it is fun to explore the various theories. :).

From when? :)

TGW, I've already answered that question. :) I said she wasn't okay with Sev's penchant for the Dark Arts when she expressed her deep unease about his friendship with Mulciber and Avery. She says vehemently that what they're doing is "evil". And this is not the first time we see dissension between Severus and Lily either. I mean, let's be honest: in every single memory we see of Snape and Lily, the two of them are usually fighting. :lol: And yes, obviously, those memories are selective! -- it doesn't rule out the possibility that there were other times when they were happy together.

But it is perfectly possible to care about someone deeply and be deeply unhappy about aspects of their behaviour. After all, this is why people stay stuck in abusive relationships. I am not suggesting that Snape/Lily is an abusive relationship. But it does explain to me why Lily hung onto their friendship for so long, when there were aspects of Sev's life that were deeply troubling to her.

See, that's question that's confusing IMO. Lily was trying for *years* and still she was his best friend. If that's true, then in Snape's mind Lily knew everything and she was still his best friend. Then for the same reasons she broke off IMO. I think that's why Snape could not say a word in defence; what could he say, she knew everything, she had been his friend, reassured him when he had a doubt and then broke off with hi IMO.

I see what you're saying. :) But Severus isn't stupid. Does he really need the conscience of Lily Evans to advise him that calling Muggleborns 'Mudbloods' is a hateful act? :huh: My personal take on this is that he was in denial about the huge disconnect that was happening in his life, between his Death Eater aspirations (I agree that he wasn't one yet, but he was well on the way) and his deep feelings for Lily.

After Lily rejected him, he still had a moral choice, to turn back from that dark path. How different his story would have turned out, if he had!

I always thought that the reason for him not trying was because he couldn't see that what he was doing was wrong. He continued to aspire to be a Death Eater and ultimately became one. I think that he thought that one day Lily would see things from his point of view, but until she did - until she came to him to make up the friendship - he would think that she just didn't understand. I also think that his low self-esteem would have made him think that she wouldn't be interested in resuming the friendship, so unlike James he wouldn't have bothered her to resume their friendship in the way that James bothered her to go out with him. I think his lack of self confidence was a big factor, and I believe he thought "When I am a big impressive Death Eater then I Lily will 'see' " He didn't believe he was enough on his own, as he was; he thought he had to be something more - a Death Eater.

I agree that was probably the reason when he was with Lily; but later, Snape had 2 years in School with her, and she was free for one and a half years out of those two. And for someone who loves her so much, he does not think about what she said and why and did not try to win her friendship back. And I believe Snape loved Lily even then, fully and completely.

I think you have a great point about low self esteem, but this was Snape's love ans his life. Even if he would nt want to win her love, he could have stayed away from Avery and Co. and asked her to be friends with him again.

It meant so much to him, LIly and her friendship, I mean and yet he does not. I thought it was because he knew she had chosen and she would not re-evaluate. Then Snape joining Avery, and not attempting to win her friendship, if not her love made sense to me. :)

I don't think Snape ever respected Lily for who she was. I never saw respect coming from him during their friendship, nor after. As youngsters, he doesn't show any concern when Lily is upset over Petunia.

I respectfully disagree with you. I think Snape respected Lily an awful lot. He respected her decision to break off with him, he never troubled her or tried to break up her affection for a boy he disliked and who hated him in return IMO.

We don't know if Snape ever tried to speak to Lily again, we also do not know if he didn't either. Hexing James in seventh year at every opportunity makes me suspicious though, as well as asking Voldemort to spare her in exchange for her husband and son.

No, we don't know. But because we don't have anything to tell us one way or other, I thought that Lily never spoke to Snape at all.

I didn't really get the impression that in the fight scene before SWM, Lily was talking to him about those concerns for the first time. I always thought she had spoken with him about them before. That was just my interpretation though.

She may have, but how serious she was and how she warned him was something else IMO. We don't know that, and we don't know for how long she made excuses for him or anything. It is all specualtion, but which is based on the fact that for over six years they fulfilled the conditions of friendship, but something happened in their 5th year and it broke.

Now that something was Snape going to become a DE in the future IMO. He was not one at that time, and he never used dark magic; he was however hanging out with those who did. That was his crime. So Lily basically broke off a friendship on the assumption Snape would never change and he would never choose her love and frienship over DE ship IMO.

Well, since I am begining to think better of Lily than that, I must say those are poor reasons to break what was a very good friendship that Lily held on to it; (she was a popular girl and she had many friends and all, unlike Snape was a greasy git, but that she still wanted a friendship with that socially inadequate greasy git, who wore underpants that needed to be desperately washed, tells me, that was one very complete friendship. I cannot think that Lily broke it upon an assumption of all the things she thought Snape was going to become in the future).

He did, but that I think was because of the break up, more than anything else IMO. That's why I felt the break up was badly handled and Lily broke off because of other reasons; these reasons (Dark arts) were concerns, I am not saying they were not, but I feel that was not the only reason for the break up; because the night of the SWM, Snape was NOT a DE, NOT practising dark magic, and NEVER did anything *evil* to muggle borns just for fun IMO.


And, really, imagine if Lily knew that she wanted to fight Voldemort actively. She had a suspicion that Snape wanted to be a Death Eater and if she knew that she was going to be on the opposing side, I cannot imagine it being easy for her to know who Snape was becoming.

All the more reason to either take it to an adult or sit him down and warn him seriously, and give him a choice between herself and Voldemort. I would bet Snape chose Lily all the way. :)

In my opinion Lily was never okay with what Snape did. If she was, why did she make excuses for him? An excuse is meant to serve as a justification for something, and Lily tried to use that with her friends. Never was Lily okay with what he did, for if she was, then she wouldn't have broken off the friendship. She made it clear that she thought what he was doing was wrong and ended the friendship because of that.

Excuses from when? I think they were from the werewolf incident until the SWM. :)

So let's explore this theory a little further :). Here is a possible scenario (click on the arrow)

Based on Lily's character, for her to have fallen for James after SWM, imo, James would have had to have returned to Gryffindor sometime during the afternoon following SWM and admitted to Lily that he thought all she had said about him was true, imo. This is because he would have had to have shown some type of recognition of his behavior and desire to change (which is what she was looking for in both James and Snape, imo).

So saying that is what happened, the conversation could have begun by James saying something along the lines of "I'm glad you think so little of me if you cannot see the distinction between my acts and those of Snape". He could have then pointed out that Snape had used dark magic during their confrontation, called her a Mudblood and that it was all based in his being a budding Death Eater. Lily would have little in the way of defending herself because imo, she agreed with all of that (these are the same things she accused Snape of doing in their conversation about the werewolf incident - including making the distinction between light and dark magic - DH -TPT). So then James would have the prime opportunity to admit he was wrong and save her from having to defend herself. She forgives him, see's he has recognized his wrongs, falls for him and determines that she wishes to be around James - and other like James - rather than Snape.

Now later, imo, Lily's friends would definitely have spoken to her about Snape as well; pointing out that he'd not only shown prejudice to others in the past, but now to her as well. They would highlight the fact that he openly used dark curses (sectumsempra in SWM) and that he hung around Mulciber and Avery (and possibly others who were not as good of friends) that were all budding Death Eaters.

So Lily, having fallen for James and listened to her friends, would decide that they were all right and it was time to end her friendship with Snape. Mainly, because she wished to see if James were serious in all he had said to her and truly was going to show change (which he later does).

Thus, Lily breaks off her friendship with Snape and thereafter focuses all of her attention on James and eventually they get together. OR - because of their chat, things picked up immediately and Lily fell for James; thus, because James had already fallen for Lily, they got together and carried on a relationship in secret for all of 6th year only revealing themselves in 7th.

Meanwhile, as stated in the theory, "Snape recognized she had fallen for James and could not accept him any longer, and stayed away and he respected her as much as he loved her and he agreed with her decision to break off and let it be."

So that is a possible scenario. But here are the problems I see:

First, why would Lily wait an entire year before actually dating James if she had fallen for him already? Imo, in 6th year he showed definite improvement or Dumbledore would not have made him head boy (over all of the prefects), so wouldn't she have begun immediately dating him in 6th as they would have both 'fallen' at that time and he proved he'd changed?

Second, if Lily had fallen for James and saw his improvement on the afternoon of SWM, wouldn't they have at least become more friendly? And if so, wouldn't Snape had started up his hexing James at every opportunity in 6th rather than 7th out of jealousy?

Third, the part of your theory that Snape 'allowed Lily to break off the friendship and let it be' does not jive with his hexing James at every opportunity in 7th...doesn't his action show that he was jealous and angry with James for dating her and that he still had feelings for her himself? Imo, it shows that Snape had not determined that he would simply 'let things be' and stay away. (OOTP - Careers Advice)

Finally, and most importantly, would Lily be able to douse her anger on the day of SWM and actually fall for James shortly after that event? It seems like that would be a little fast and that neither Lily nor James would wish to speak with one another for at least a day or two after that. James was arrogant enough to feel belittled and humiliated by her comments made before the crowd, imo; and Lily seemed stubborn enough to remain angry at James at least for a day before recognizing that he'd been defending her and separate that from his deliquent acts which to her were not as bad as the dark arts acts that Snape was involved in, imo. And in as far as the alternate scenario goes, I don't think the secret relationship theory is very feasible because James' friends were too close to him not to have figured it out.

Conclusion:

So while I could find some basis for Lily falling for James before her talk with Snape (like the above scenario), imo, it is not highly probable that Lily fell for James so quickly and Snape was able to sense it and thus let their friendship end. And Snape really did not remain inactive about it (let it lie) because he went on to curse James at every opportunity in 7th which imo was directly related to his ongoing feelings for Lily.

While I don't see this scenario or one like it highly probable based on the characters involved as presented in canon, I agree, it is fun to explore the various theories. :).

Okay, let me try and answer this. :)

I don't think James went and said anything to Lily. I just think Lily fell for him, that's all; and that feeling of attraction or whatever one would call it, was felt by Lily some time before or about the time of the werewolf incident IMO.

From there I also think she started seeing Snape differently. Because she fell for James, she was willing to give him an opportunity to become better, just like when Lily was Snape's friend, even when he was calling every muggleborn mudblood. For those who are ours, we do make execptions and allowances; Lily did that for Snape, but when she fell in love with a boy who IMO she thought would never accept Snape and knew that her best friend would never accept the love, she chose, perhaps subconciously, and once she did, she started making those allowanced for James, and stopped doing so for Snape IMO.

Now once again, I am not saying that Lily would have been friends with Snape if she knew that he did dark magic on others; if she knew he was already a DE or he was doing DE jobs for Voldemort and other DEs.

Snape was doing nothing of the sort. He was on his way towards Voldemort, though, and Lily I think understood it.

She did not like that, and they would have eventually parted had Snape actually joined Voldemort, I don't doubt it. But because Lily fell for James, I think she also started seeing Snape through James's eyes, his opinion and the like. And I am not blaming Lily for this either. I don't think we can choose who we like and love, and she loved James and was willing to offer him opportunities to rectify, but was not willing to do so for Snape, because she may have felt that what everyone in Gryffindor were saying about him(my friends don't even know why I am friends with you) was true. It was all very sad IMO.

I don't think James went and said anything to Lily. I just think Lily fell for him, that's all; and that feeling of attraction or whatever one would call it, was felt by Lily some time before or about the time of the werewolf incident IMO.

...Because Lily fell for James, I think she also started seeing Snape through James's eyes, his opinion and the like.

I respect your opinion, but it does bring a question to mind. Why do you feel that Lily stood up for Snape in SWM if she was looking at him through James' eyes at that point?

From there I also think she started seeing Snape differently. Because she fell for James, she was willing to give him an opportunity to become better, just like when Lily was Snape's friend, even when he was calling every muggleborn mudblood. For those who are ours, we do make execptions and allowances; Lily did that for Snape, but when she fell in love with a boy who IMO she thought would never accept Snape and knew that her best friend would never accept the love, she chose, perhaps subconciously, and once she did, she started making those allowanced for James, and stopped doing so for Snape IMO.

I respect your view, but it brings up another question. :lol:. What do you think Lily believed would happen if she began dating James and remained friends with Snape (believing that neither James or Snape would accept one another)?

Now once again, I am not saying that Lily would have been friends with Snape if she knew that he did dark magic on others;

Lily saw Snape using dark magic on others in SWM (sectumsempra). Do you feel that may have played into her decision to end the friendship?

And I am not blaming Lily for this either. I don't think we can choose who we like and love, and she loved James and was willing to offer him opportunities to rectify, but was not willing to do so for Snape, because she may have felt that what everyone in Gryffindor were saying about him(my friends don't even know why I am friends with you) was true. It was all very sad IMO.

I respect your view, and again it brings another question to mind. Lily loved Snape as a friend, but had a romantic interest in James. Do you feel that romantic love would make Lily give James more chances to rectify than she would give to Snape because her love for him was platonic?

I always thought that the reason for him not trying was because he couldn't see that what he was doing was wrong. He continued to aspire to be a Death Eater and ultimately became one. I think that he thought that one day Lily would see things from his point of view, but until she did - until she came to him to make up the friendship - he would think that she just didn't understand. I also think that his low self-esteem would have made him think that she wouldn't be interested in resuming the friendship, so unlike James he wouldn't have bothered her to resume their friendship in the way that James bothered her to go out with him. I think his lack of self confidence was a big factor, and I believe he thought "When I am a big impressive Death Eater then I Lily will 'see' " He didn't believe he was enough on his own, as he was; he thought he had to be something more - a Death Eater.I agree completely. That's why Snape's fall is so tragic - it's obvious that he cares for Lily and wants her respect and friendship, but his attraction to the Dark Arts competes with his attraction to Lily. I think that, in a way, his line of thinking that Lily will appreciate him when he has power as a fully-fledged Death Eater is his subconscious way of reconciling his to antithetical involvements: Lily's friendship vs. his obsession with the Dark Arts. I think that because he did not want to give up his involvement in the Dark Arts, he succeeded in convincing himself that Lily would appreciate him more if he was a Death Eater. He was at the time blinded by his dealings with Mulciber and Avery because I'm sure Snape enjoyed the feeling of power he got when engaging in those activities. And therein lies his insecurity which you pointed out: that he believed he had to be something more than himself in order to fully gain Lily's appreciation. All of these thoughts and feelings likely fed into one another to ultimately cause Snape to proceed down the path that led to his becoming a Death Eater.

I respect your opinion, but it does bring a question to mind. Why do you feel that Lily stood up for Snape in SWM if she was looking at him through James' eyes at that point?

Because she as still pretending to be his friend and I don't mean that in an unkind or bad way. I mean that she was probably pretending to be as she would have before. But when Snape in his own anger and humiliation called her a mudblood, she broke off with him IMO.

I respect your view, but it brings up another question. :lol:. What do you think Lily believed would happen if she began dating James and remained friends with Snape (believing that neither James or Snape would accept one another)?

I think Lily knew that Snape and James would never accept each other. To remain friends with Snape and going out with James would place a strain on both relatinships and both IMO would have suffered as a result and Lily, James and Snape would have felt betrayed by each other. James and Snape both loved her and that would be a deadly three some, had Lily maintained her friendship with Snape and dated James IMO. It would have needed a maturity from all three of them which I think they did not have. Add to this Sirius, Remus and Peter, James/Lily and Snape/Lily would be doomed before it began IMO. (I am not taking Avery and Co, because I am assuming Snape is not qwith them, if he was, well BANG!) :)

Lily saw Snape using dark magic on others in SWM (sectumsempra). Do you feel that may have played into her decision to end the friendship?

Is it really given in the book as Sectumsempra?

I respect your view, and again it brings another question to mind. Lily loved Snape as a friend, but had a romantic interest in James. Do you feel that romantic love would make Lily give James more chances to rectify than she would give to Snape because her love for him was platonic?

This is a great question wicked, and I've been thinking of an answer and this is the best I've come up with. :)

I think Lily was Snape's friend and then there was a break where she fell for James and watched him from afar, gave him chances to improve in the next two years, watched him closely in the first half of 7th year when Lily and James were both Head Boy and Girl and interacted closely with each other and then openly accepted him IMO.

Like when Lily was Snape's best friend, she never broke off her friendship because his favourite swearword was mudblood, becuase Lily like all of us make allowances for whom we love. She did that with Snape, and she did that with james IMO.

But I really don't know if her romantic love overruled platonic love. What are your views?

Is it really given in the book as Sectumsempra?

No, but imo, it is a dark curse whatever name it is given as it had the exact same affect as Sectumsempra and curses of that type, Snape tells us, are very dark in nature. (HBP, Sectumsempra)

This is a great question wicked, and I've been thinking of an answer and this is the best I've come up with. :)

I think Lily was Snape's friend and then there was a break where she fell for James and watched him from afar, gave him chances to improve in the next two years, watched him closely in the first half of 7th year when Lily and James were both Head Boy and Girl and interacted closely with each other and then openly accepted him IMO.

Like when Lily was Snape's best friend, she never broke off her friendship because his favourite swearword was mudblood, becuase Lily like all of us make allowances for whom we love. She did that with Snape, and she did that with james IMO.

But I really don't know if her romantic love overruled platonic love. What are your views?

In my view, I think she would treat the situations equally.

I respectfully disagree with you. I think Snape respected Lily an awful lot. He respected her decision to break off with him, he never troubled her or tried to break up her affection for a boy he disliked and who hated him in return IMO.
But I have already stated my reasons for disagreeing with the opinion that Snape respected Lily by leaving her alone and accepting her decision to leave him. IMO, attacking her boyfriend at every opportunity, requesting to Voldemort to spare her life in exchange for her husband and son's, and bullying Harry for existing show that he did not respect Lily's decision at all. I have also stated reasons why I do not think Snape respected Lily as a person either (in my above post :))

Why do you personally believe Snape did respect Lily's decision, despite these points? :)

It is all specualtion, but which is based on the fact that for over six years they fulfilled the conditions of friendship, but something happened in their 5th year and it broke.
I do not remember seeing any canon where Lily and Snape fulfilled the conditions of friendship before fifth year :) IMO, each scene with them did not show a healthy, balanced friendship.

Now that something was Snape going to become a DE in the future IMO. He was not one at that time, and he never used dark magic; he was however hanging out with those who did.
He was already inventing and using them (on James in SWM) before Lily left him. :)

So Lily basically broke off a friendship on the assumption Snape would never change and he would never choose her love and frienship over DE ship IMO.
Was Lily supposed to wait until Snape personally put her life in mortal danger? Because that is the only thing that made him change sides. IMO, Lily should not have waited that long, and held onto an unhealthy friendship because of a little bit of hope. IMO, enough was enough.

Excuses from when? I think they were from the werewolf incident until the SWM. :)
It depends on when one thinks the "werewolf/Mulciber/Avery" fight took place. If that is your belief, then the fight must have taken place in 3rd or 4th year, not fifth, because Lily had been pretending for "years". The time is debatable.

^^^^ he wasn't inventing them (I don't think)
I mean yes he invented spells and what not, but do you have proof taht he used them?

^^^ wow I sound snobby!!! (sorry!) :love:

^^^^ he wasn't inventing them (I don't think)
Yes, he was. Remember in HBP when Harry sees "Sectumsempra" written in the margins with "for enemies" scrawled beside it? He then proceeds to use the spell, and ends up cutting Malfoy all over and almost killing him. Snape himself calls it a dark spell.

I mean yes he invented spells and what not, but do you have proof taht he used them?
I assume you're referring to when he was still friends with Lily - he cut James' cheek open when he had his back turned to him. The blood splattered onto his robes, so it was not a minor cut. That sounds like a pretty dark spell to me IMO.

All the more reason to either take it to an adult or sit him down and warn him seriously, and give him a choice between herself and Voldemort. I would bet Snape chose Lily all the way. :)

Well, Lily did try to tell him to stop, but he didn't listen. And when she ended the friendship, she didn't say "I don't want to ever see you again, regardless of whether or not you change!" He was capable of changing even if she didn't specifically give him a choice. She would have been open to accepting Snape again had he changed just like she was with James.

Excuses from when? I think they were from the werewolf incident until the SWM. :)

She said she had been making excuses "for years." :)

^^^^ he wasn't inventing them (I don't think)
I mean yes he invented spells and what not, but do you have proof taht he used them?

Other than what DeliciousMoon pointed out, Snape must have used Levicorpus or at least taught others how to use it. The spell was popular during fifth year, according to Remus, which means it must have spread around somehow.

I assume you're referring to when he was still friends with Lily - he cut James' cheek open when he had his back turned to him. The blood splattered onto his robes, so it was not a minor cut. That sounds like a pretty dark spell to me IMO.
I've been thinking a lot about that incident in SWM. We are assuming that it was Sectumsempra that Snape used. I looked up the latin (Geek alert!) and it roughly translates as "Cut forever" which is why no dount that George's ear couldn't be healed. However Snape does seem to know a counter-curse (which reinforces my theory that all Dark magic can be countered - you just have to know how) But what is interesting - and I think this has been raised before on this thread - is that James does not have a scar on his cheek as a result of the curse Snape used on him in SWM. So I'm thinking that either Snape used a different spell (which seems unlikely) or that Snape hadn't at that point perfected Sectumsempra. The later makes more sense to me. Most of the spells Harry finds in the potions book are relatively harmless, but sectumsempra is a dark spell. It makes more sense to me for Snape to have perfected this spell later than fifth year because he would have descended deeper into the Dark Arts in sixth and seventh year. Mulciber and Avery would have had more influence on him and Snape didn't have the good influence of Lily. What do others think?

:blush: Okay sorry!
I was upset at myself for causing that misunderstanding in the first place. :lol:

I wasn't really saying that Sirius was wrong - just that his comments aren't necessarily exposition or rather that I don't think JKR was using Sirius to give an accurate assessment of Snape. I'm sure Snape knew Dark Curses in first year and we certainly know he was inventing them by fifth year. I guess it's just that sometimes those words of Sirius are taken literally when IMO they were not meant to be taken literally - that's all :)
I've replied on the Sirius thread. :)
I disagree that James's loathing of Snape stemmed from his interest in the Dark Arts. The scene we are shown on the Hogwarts Express has James being contemptuous of any one who wants to join a particular house - Slytherin. At that point James knows nothing about Snape other than he wants to be in Slytherin. What James expresses is basically a prejudice against Slytherin house. Now I'm not saying that that was why he loathed Snape - just that we see James dislike of Snape based solely on Snape's choice of house.
I've replied on the James thread.

I agree that it wasn't a radical change in the fifth year - that there was a gradual change from first to fifth year - so gradual that Lily being close to Severus couldn't see it until it turned round and bit her.
That's what I think too. It's hard to see gradual changes because you tend to get accustomed to them, especially if you spend time together often.

On a side note - I thought that the werewolf prank was in fifth year - just that it happened before SWM which was at the end of the year. The impression I got of the tunnel under the whomping willow was that it was not large enough to accomodate a stag so James couldn't have transformed anyway. In DH Harry Ron and Hermione have to crawl along on their hands and knees to get to the shack.
The description of the tunnel varies, IMO. It's shows as being quite small, in DH, but in PoA, it's just narrow. Snape is described as being floated along upright, with his head scraping along the ceiling. But you're probably right, and it was likely to have been in fifth year, earlier.

I disagree. I think that Snape does learn that compassion is a good thing - remember his "Only those I can't save" comment - that cries out compassion to me.
He also says 'Lately', which to me indicated the beginning of the second war, or later. Also, he's talking about watching people die, not compassion in general.

I regarded his taking points off Hermione for helping Neville was because he saw it as cheating - that IMO is the way Snape saw things like that - probably because he was a laoner who liked to work on his own and he expected other people to be like that as well - not fair I know, but I thinbk that was how he was.
Oh it's definitely unfair, especially when you look at it in the light of the first Potions class, in PS.
"Idiot boy!" snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with one wave of his wand. "I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire?"
Neville whimpered as boils started to pop up all over his nose.
"Take him up to the hospital wing," Snape spat at Seamus. Then he rounded on Harry and Ron, who had been working next to Neville.
"You -- Potter -- why didn't you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he'd make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That's another point you've lost for Gryffindor."
Snape establishes the rule very early on, doesn't he? Students are expected to help each other, and watch out, so as to prevent accidents. Not to mention, his instruction to Hermione is to not show off, not that he doesn't want her to help Neville.

Goodness ... if Snape had known at the outset that Peter was the traitor, responsible for the death of his beloved Lily, then I believe that Death Eater Snape would have found some way to pay Peter back for that -- and how!
Snape couldn't kill Peter, but he does make his life miserable, by making him wait hand and foot on himself, imperiously dictating his actions, threatening him with dangerous missions and so on.

Sure ... Rowling portrays Snape as a darker character than Ginny, Harry or Cho, I'm not disputing that. :D
Ouch. :grumble:

Well, each to their own. :) I mostly found it sad. The child is ten, and desperate for friendship.
So desperate, that he takes the trouble to drive off Petunia? IMO, Snape's being too exclusive to be considered desperate for friendship. If it was just companionship that he wanted, why doesn't he try to befriend Petunia as well?

But that theory completely ignores the plot that Rowling has set up! :huh: -- that Snape worked for Albus to defeat Voldemort because he had loved Lily. As Harry said, Snape was Dumbledore's from the moment Voldemort started hunting Lily down. :cool:
Oh, not at all. In fact, Snape didn't care at all when Voldemort targeted Lily (and James) thrice before. This time was different though, because Snape was responsible.

I think everything was fine between them until the werewolf incident. Around that time IMO was the start of the breaking of the friendship. And while I agree Snape did not understand her moving away from him, I think it was because he may have felrt that she knew everything and until then she was okay with it. She knew he called others mudblood, she IMO must have known that Snape liked the dark arts, and she knew he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber.
I just don't see how the werewolf incident is connected to it. Even if Lily had fallen head over heels for James because of that (which she didn't), what does that have to do with Snape, who's her entirely platonic friend? Lily just doesn't come across as someone who would suddenly decide to end a five year long friendship because of romantic feelings she'd developed for someone else. It's just not good common sense. Lily has no idea how the romance with James would work out. It could end up being a complete fiasco. Why would she risk a friendship for that?

Snape had not hidden anything from her IMO. She was probably the one person who knew everything IMO about Snape.
Whether he knew the full extent of his involvement or not, Lily's opinion was made entirely clear to Snape. She completely disapproved of the Dark Arts, and the company he kept, calling them evil.

I think that was one reason he did not understand or comprehend when she broke off; because she was in his mind breaking off for stuff she had known before IMO. That could also be one reason he never argued back or defended himself, because I feel he did not know how to.
That is likely, because Snape had never taken the time to actually listen to what she was saying, and didn't care, really.
Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape’s step. . .
But to say they were not friends for a long time and Lily was simply hanging around with aboy who was in Slytherin, only to make excuses for him for years is something I really don't agree with.
Could you please rephrase this statement? I don't understand. When does Lily say that they were not friends for a long time, and that she was simply hanging around?

I respectfully disagree. I have stated my reason above. :)
Sorry, but you've stated what Snape thought was the issue. Your posts were about how Snape couldn't understand how his actions were an issue, because he thought that Lily was okay with it. That doesn't really cover your statement that Lily gave up too soon. Why would Lily assume that Snape thought she was okay with it, when she'd been protesting so much? Why should she assume that her friend was not listening to her at all?

I respectfully disagree. No one was forcing her to be friends with Snape IMO. If Lily was Snape's friend for over six years, when they were in different Houses, and was so different from snape, she could have very well broken off her friendship with him, once she was sorted in Gryffindor and he in Slytherin. The fact she kept the friendship with him and held him as her best friends for this long tells me that she wanted that friendship with Snape. Snape satisfied her and made her happy in a way no one from Gryffindor was able to IMO and she was content to be best friends with him for over six years, and probably kep the friendship with him even when others in Gryffindor would have warned her against it IMO.
I think that there's some sort of misunderstanding here. What I said was that IMO, Lily would never have jumped into any sort of relationship with James, or started to fall in love with him, immediately after SWM, regardless of how deeply she was attracted to him.

Lily's treatment of Snape suggests that she was irrational to a point where he was concerned. It simply doesn't make logical sense that Lily, as a muggleborn, and as a person with a strong sense of empathy, would overlook or condone Snape's insulting other muggleborns, or aspiring to join Voldemort. That suggests to me that Lily wasn't being entirely rational and was possibly in denial, when it came to Snape. In other words, she didn't want to believe those things of Snape, because she cared for him. She didn't want to even consider the possibility that her best friend would be involved in something so loathesome. If Lily had a soft-spot for James, she had a bigger soft-spot for Snape.

I think that being foully insulted by Snape made her tougher, in some ways. I don't think that she'd have let her feelings override her better judgement after that.

But yes, I agree with you, that it was her soft spot that she developed for James that IMO ultimately drove her away from Snape.
Please don't misquote me. I never said or implied anything of the sort. :err: In fact, I said that one had nothing to do with the other.

Otherwise too, she may have broken off had he become a DE, but certainly not after the SWM IMO, when Snape was NOT a DE and he was NOT doing any dark magic. He was however hanging out with those who did. He called her a dirty name, but I think she would have forgiven him, after a proper dressing down of course, and warnoing him never to do that again.

I disagree completely. There was simply no way Lily, as she is written, would just let Snape off with a warning and take him back. Lily's not a doormat. She doesn't even let her professors get away with snide comments, and gives cheeky replies. She was spirited.

Again, it was not just 'a dirty name'. At the time, it meant a lot more. We saw how muggleborns ended up under a DE rule. Calling someone a mudblood, in a similar time of war, was indeed unforgivable, considering what the DEs were doing to people they considered mudbloods.

That was the first and only time he called her that and that too when his own position was very humiliating and patheic. I think Lily would have understood. :)

It was the first time, but how could Lily be sure that it was the only time? How could Lily be sure that Snape had been thinking of her that way all the time, only he hadn't voiced it? After all, there were hints to suggest to her that Snape thought her as inferior to him (I won't let you). What if, all those times Snape had ignored her advice, he was thinking, "What does the little mudblood know about such things?" IMO, it's inevitable that Lily would think such things.

Could Lily be sure that Snape would never think of her that way again? That every time she said or did something that made Snape angry, he wouldn't say 'Filthy Little Mudblood' to himself? That he would not call her that again when he lost his temper? That his apology, if she were to accept it, wouldn't be the first in a long series? IMHO, she could not, and she knew it only too well.

Snape irreparably shattered the sense of security that she had felt with him, with those words. It would never be quite the same again. Lily would never have felt as secure with Snape again, and I can't see her being friends with someone she doesn't feel safe with. Lily could never again be as free around Snape, because she'd always be afraid that he'd think of her as a mudblood, because that was what came naturally to him.

And that's why he also never sought her out to restore their friendship. I think he knew she would not accept him anymore.
IMO, Snape didn't know Lily well enough to come to that conclusion. It seems like he thought that she would accept him once he became a powerful Death Eater. If he'd truly understood that she was forever lost to him, he would have renounced the Dark Arts then.

I respectfully disagree with you. I think Snape respected Lily an awful lot. He respected her decision to break off with him, he never troubled her or tried to break up her affection for a boy he disliked and who hated him in return IMO.


Just because Snape may have accepted Lily's decision doesn't necesarily mean he respected it. You can accept something happened, but hate the fact that it did, and that's what I think Snape felt. Cosidering how "Snape loved her ever since they were children" (or something like that), I think even pre-redeemed!Snape would want to be friends with Lily again if he had the chance. And being the love-sick, emotionally-stunted person he was, he probably hated the fact the he can't. Not trying to break up her relationship with James or win back her friendship doesn't prove he respected her decision, it just means he thought his actions would be futile. Leaving her alone would the least he could do for her, and doesn't even measure to respecting her, in my opinion.

It makes more sense to me for Snape to have perfected this spell later than fifth year because he would have descended deeper into the Dark Arts in sixth and seventh year. Mulciber and Avery would have had more influence on him and Snape didn't have the good influence of Lily. What do others think?
I don't think Lily leaving him had anything to do with the advancement of dark magic on Snape's part - he seemed to naturally be going in that direction anyway, and Lily was powerless to stop it. I think he just naturally got better and better at it, as well as more daring. I don't know if Mulciber and Avery would have more of an influence on him than before though, because even with Lily trying to be a good influence, she was not actually influencing him imo. He didn't listen to her and ignored her when she tried to be the good influence imo. I think Snape worked a lot on his own when it came to dark spells.

I've been thinking a lot about that incident in SWM. We are assuming that it was Sectumsempra that Snape used. I looked up the latin (Geek alert!) and it roughly translates as "Cut forever" which is why no dount that George's ear couldn't be healed. However Snape does seem to know a counter-curse (which reinforces my theory that all Dark magic can be countered - you just have to know how) But what is interesting - and I think this has been raised before on this thread - is that James does not have a scar on his cheek as a result of the curse Snape used on him in SWM. So I'm thinking that either Snape used a different spell (which seems unlikely) or that Snape hadn't at that point perfected Sectumsempra. The later makes more sense to me. Most of the spells Harry finds in the potions book are relatively harmless, but sectumsempra is a dark spell. It makes more sense to me for Snape to have perfected this spell later than fifth year because he would have descended deeper into the Dark Arts in sixth and seventh year. Mulciber and Avery would have had more influence on him and Snape didn't have the good influence of Lily. What do others think?

:) Nice - But if the spell was not perfected yet, so it did not "Cut forever" but simply cut then surely that is a different spell – the effects is substantially different. So in many ways the two options you give seem, to me, like different ways of saying the same thing. That said – I think the nub of what you’ve said is spot on & it explains things well. It seems very fitting to me both in terms of plot consistence & the image of a boy who is continually working on & refining spells, potions etc.

So desperate, that he takes the trouble to drive off Petunia? IMO, Snape's being too exclusive to be considered desperate for friendship. If it was just companionship that he wanted, why doesn't he try to befriend Petunia as well?

I have to say that doesn’t sound contradictory to me. It is reasonable to extrapolate from what we have seen of his childhood that young Snape has learnt that muggles can be dangerous, especially to witches/wizards. Given this why would he want anything to do with Petunia, especially when she is also mean to him?

Oh, not at all. In fact, Snape didn't care at all when Voldemort targeted Lily (and James) thrice before. This time was different though, because Snape was responsible.

There is absolutely no cannon to either support or deny that conclusion. We only know that they ‘thrice defied the dark lord’ that doesn’t necessarily mean he had targeted them. They cold simply have foiled his plans on 3 occasions. We also have no information on what Snape did or did not know about these 3 occasions; for all we know he may have been completely ignorant of them. To state that, Snape didn’t care at all when Voldemort targeted Lily, presupposes that he had information and a reaction that is, to my knowledge, never mentioned in cannon.

Just because Snape may have accepted Lily's decision doesn't necesarily mean he respected it.

True

Not trying to break up her relationship with James or win back her friendship doesn't prove he respected her decision, it just means he thought his actions would be futile. Leaving her alone would the least he could do for her, and doesn't even measure to respecting her, in my opinion.

Well to be fair it could have meant exactly that, however it could also have mean that he felt it was futile, or he could have felt that it was the only thing he could do, or that he was biding his time until he was as, if not more, impressive that James Potter, or that he felt unworthy of her friendship, or…. Well lots of other stuff the possibilities are many. :)

Snape couldn't kill Peter, but he does make his life miserable, by making him wait hand and foot on himself, imperiously dictating his actions, threatening him with dangerous missions and so on.

Of course he did. :cool: Peter is the guy who betrayed Lily Potter! But I was replying to Meesha1971's contention that Snape knew that Pettigrew was the traitor back in 1981 and did nothing about it, a contention that makes no sense, IMO, in the light of the overall story, and which is unsupported in canon. :)

So desperate, that he takes the trouble to drive off Petunia? IMO, Snape's being too exclusive to be considered desperate for friendship. If it was just companionship that he wanted, why doesn't he try to befriend Petunia as well?

I should have been clearer. :) It is friendship with another magical child like himself that Snape craves. Rowling also portrays him as a rather isolated little boy. Petunia expresses classic middle-class distaste for families like Snape's who obviously come from the wrong side of town (in her view).

Oh, not at all. In fact, Snape didn't care at all when Voldemort targeted Lily (and James) thrice before.

As Kittling has pointed out, there is no canon to support this theory. We don't even know when Lily and James thrice defied Voldemort, do we?! (I believe that Rowling might have said in an interview recently that Voldemort first approached Lily and James before they left school ... I don't follow her interviews all the time though.) So how can we deduce what Snape may or may not have done at the time, or what his feelings were about it? :shrug:

The storyline is clear: he was horrified that Voldemort had targeted Lily Potter specifically and his life changes from that moment on. To quote Harry, The Flaw in the Plan, p 593, UK edition: "Snape was Dumbledore's, Dumbledore's from the moment you started hunting down my mother."

Lily's treatment of Snape suggests that she was irrational to a point where he was concerned. It simply doesn't make logical sense that Lily, as a muggleborn, and as a person with a strong sense of empathy, would overlook or condone Snape's insulting other muggleborns, or aspiring to join Voldemort. That suggests to me that Lily wasn't being entirely rational and was possibly in denial, when it came to Snape. In other words, she didn't want to believe those things of Snape, because she cared for him. She didn't want to even consider the possibility that her best friend would be involved in something so loathesome. If Lily had a soft-spot for James, she had a bigger soft-spot for Snape.

I think that being foully insulted by Snape made her tougher, in some ways. I don't think that she'd have let her feelings override her better judgement after that.

Now on this point I am in agreement with you. :) It's the only way I can make sense of Lily being friends with Severus for so long: her compassionate heart and affection for her childhood friend, her first magical friend, although he seemed to be acquiring beliefs that she could not agree with. I think that Lily cared deeply for Severus (otherwise Rowling would not have bothered to show them being friends for so long) but his beliefs were diverging from hers so radically during their teenage years that tensions were sure to arise. And they do.

When Lily was a young kid, she didn't notice that Severus seemed to have a prejudice towards non-magical people. I believe this was probably inculcated in him by his upbringing -- perhaps his mother Eileen's beliefs, although there is no canon to support me on that :D and perhaps her prejudice was reinforced by being shouted at and made to cry at by a dour, perhaps abusive, Muggle husband. :( Maybe his father's treatment of his mother reinforced young Sev's impression that Muggles (and, later on, Muggleborns) were a waste of space. We don't see Snape's father come to see him off at Hogwarts -- Eileen does -- and Snape seems unhappy when Lily asks him how things are at home. :(

But after their separate Sortings, and Severus was taken under the wing of the likes of Lucius Malfoy (with all the ramifications that were to follow from that), then the strains in Lily and Sev's friendship begin to appear ... as Rowling clearly shows, in The Prince's Tale.

Now on this point I am in agreement with you. :) It's the only way I can make sense of Lily being friends with Severus for so long: her compassionate heart and affection for her childhood friend, her first magical friend, although he seemed to be acquiring beliefs that she could not agree with. I think that Lily cared deeply for Severus (otherwise Rowling would not have bothered to show them being friends for so long) but his beliefs were diverging from hers so radically during their teenage years that tensions were sure to arise. And they do.

I would agree that they were friends, but I don't think that they could have had a deep and profound friendship - meaning super tight - because they were in different houses, accumulated different friends and their outlooks diverged greatly. The thing is, really good friendships take time to form, imo, and that was something they were not granted due to the circumstances. Imo, that is why the friendship continued through 5th term - they didn't have that much time together to actually discuss the distinct realizations they were making and would learn of them via visual clues at a distance (like the first time Lily heard him call someone a Mudblood).

On top of that, their friendship was a defensive one; friends on both sides would have likely shown distain for the friendship. So when Snape gets to meet up with Lily, he is not going to start in trying to convince her to take on dark interests any more than Lily is going to start a fight about his calling someone a Mudblood because they have been fighting those issues with their friends already. Instead they likely just kept things pretty surface topic wise.

But it would be natural for Lily to have been the one to finally bring those negative topics into the conversation because Snape's position was unacceptable from a societal viewpoint (the big world view), imo. In addition, Lily was surrounded by a number of people who would get fighting mad at others for using terms like Mudblood or showing and interest or using dark arts, so imo, from a comparative viewpoint, Snape would not come out looking very good in her eyes, imo. That too would be a reason she might avoid his company more and more over time. This is supported by the fact that she was popular - if she had spent an inordinant time with Snape, she would not have likely been, first because of his reputation and second because it would leave no time for her to actually become popular/friends with others.

Snape was an outcast together with his friends who were vering toward the dark path, imo. It was seen as dangerous and something to be avoided and so imo, Lily hung in there out of a sense of duty more than anything else for most of their time at Hogwarts. Apart from his dark interests, Snape does not have much else going for him in canon, imo; he was inventive, but that which pertained to his dark interests was likely done in secret where Lily was concerned. In addition, canon does not reveal whether or not Lily would even be interested. Canon indicates she was good at potions when young, but that doesn't mean she liked the topic (f.e., I got an A in Tort Law, but I hate it). The same may be true of Snape. Snape was not described as physically attractive and while it wouldn't matter to Lily that he was not - if he had been, it might have added another dimension to their friendship. But as it stood, I don't imagine that they were able to reach a very profound level in their friendship based on what we know of them.

To clarify, you take two students like James and Sirius who spent nearly all their time together. They are going to share nearly every divergence their minds take and if Sirius gets to thinking something outlandish like 'all the budding death eaters at Hogwarts should be exterminated' based on his strong animosity related to his family - James can right away call him a clunk head and temper his thoughts. That is the type of thing missing for Snape and Lily's friendship, imo, because as Snape was forming his less socially acceptable thoughts, Lily was not present in the same way to immediately temper them and as I mentioned above, they may not have discussed those things at all because those arguments they already had to deal with with their other friends.

But after their separate Sortings, and Severus was taken under the wing of the likes of Lucius Malfoy (with all the ramifications that were to follow from that), then the strains in Lily and Sev's friendship begin to appear ... as Rowling clearly shows, in The Prince's Tale.

I agree, and I think that gesture by Malfoy was indicative of what I wrote above. Their Houses embraced them and their lives and viewpoints began to diverge from day 1, imo.

I would agree that they were friends, but I don't think that they could have had a deep and profound friendship - meaning super tight - because they were in different houses, accumulated different friends and their outlooks diverged greatly. The thing is, really good friendships take time to form, imo, and that was something they were not granted due to the circumstances. Imo, that is why the friendship continued through 5th term - they didn't have that much time together to actually discuss the distinct realizations they were making and would learn of them via visual clues at a distance (like the first time Lily heard him call someone a Mudblood).

On top of that, their friendship was a defensive one; friends on both sides would have likely shown distain for the friendship. So when Snape gets to meet up with Lily, he is not going to start in trying to convince her to take on dark interests any more than Lily is going to start a fight about his calling someone a Mudblood because they have been fighting those issues with their friends already. Instead they likely just kept things pretty surface topic wise.


I would have thought it was a very close friendship, because of these reasons. :)

Living in different Houses, Lily having friends in Gryffindor who would warn her time and again about Slytherin; Snape knowing he was befriending a muggleborn that would further lower his non-existent status and postion in the House; Lily a Gryffindor and Snape calling everyone of Lily's birth mudblood and his attraction towards the dark arts.

That friendship had so much going aginst them, rather than for them.
It was a friendship that held despite such differences, and it may have continued had it not been for Snape hanging out with Avery and Mulciber IMO.

I respect your view, but I don't see how it would allow them to have much time to be together really. And when they were together, I don't believe they would have been able to speak about very deep issues because their minds were going in such different directions.

How about the holidays? They were together all the year round. :)

I respect your view, but I don't see how it would allow them to have much time to be together really. And when they were together, I don't believe they would have been able to speak about very deep issues because their minds were going in such different directions.

They called themselves best friends. If they were such good friends, they would have tried really hard to meet each other, talk etc. Slytherins do have some classes with Gryffindors and there are also free periods, Weekends, Hogsmeade trips and so many other oppurtunities.

They called themselves best friends.
Saying they were doesn't mean they fit the definition. What we're shown of their relationship is very different from other "best friends" in the series - like Harry and Ron, and Sirius and James.

That friendship had so much going aginst them, rather than for them.
It was a friendship that held despite such differences, and it may have continued had it not been for Snape hanging out with Avery and Mulciber IMO.
I see Lily as a pretty strong woman, who wouldn't tolerate a relationship with a man who wouldn't listen to her - that is, when she grew older and more mature and gained more wisdom of healthy relationships. I think even if Snape had not been hanging out with Mulciber and Avery, she would have still strongly objected to his obsession with the dark arts, his ambition to become a death eater, and the fact that he just never listened to her. Bad communication can break a lot of friendships.

Saying they were doesn't mean they fit the definition. What we're shown of their relationship is very different from other "best friends" in the series - like Harry and Ron, and Sirius and James.


I see Lily as a pretty strong woman, who wouldn't tolerate a relationship with a man who wouldn't listen to her - that is, when she grew older and more mature and gained more wisdom of healthy relationships. I think even if Snape had not been hanging out with Mulciber and Avery, she would have still strongly objected to his obsession with the dark arts, his ambition to become a death eater, and the fact that he just never listened to her. Bad communication can break a lot of friendships.

I know that. But if they called themselves best friends, then they probably tried hard to actually be best friends. Snape really tried hard to be nice to her because he liked her so much and Lily could have taken that as "friendship" even though he never REALLY thought of her as a friend.

As far as I see, Lily and James disagreed on alot of things morally. But they still worked it out. I think people can change themselves for love.

I think the distinction is the deep moral issues, the ones that matter, imo. Voldemort and his Death Eaters were a hot topic when this group was in school. Lily could not really discuss this with Snape because their viewpoints would end in a constant confrontation, imo. If Lily was called a Mudblood by Mulciber, she would be upset, but she could hardly complain to Snape about that because he is going around saying the same thing. The issue would turn to Snape's use of it - another fight. They couldn't address the dark arts because Snape would be for it and Lily against it, another confrontation, imo. Therefore the topics that were truly facing that group at the time were off limits for those two unless they wanted to fight. Snape couldn't discuss his friends because Lily detested them. Quidditch was probably off limits for obvious reasons and other House oriented sports or teams would likely be a confrontational topic too, imo. As we saw in the memories, Snape was not very into discussing his home life and it is not likely that Lily would raise the topic of Petunia seeing as Snape didn't get on with her. So their conversations would be limited on topics that were meaningful to them, imo.

Think about it; if someone called Lily a Mudblood in the Great Hall, who is going to defend her? Not Snape because he is with his friends and doing it too - to other people. Frank, James, Remus, Alice, Sirius, etc., those are the people that are going to come to her defense. What is Lily going to think about Snape at that point? If your own friends cannot stand up for you for a wrong, it hurts and it hurts worse when your friend is doing that same wrong to others, imo.

This type of thing would keep them distant no matter how often they tried to meet. Snape said to Lily "I thought we were best friends" likely because she was not acting like it. Imo, that was something that they said to one another in first year and Snape reiterated it often due to the fact that they were growing distant and he did not wish for them to, imo. It wasn't just that they were different - friends can be different - it was that Lily detested the things that Snape was into and his friends; their viewpoints on deep-seated moral issues were the complete opposite. And it was not the muggle world, it was the wizard world where those things were considered evil - way beyond bad. Thus, imo, their friendship was a hair from being over from nearly the start and only childhood - once upon a time - friendship kept it together as long as it went on.

I think the distinction is the deep moral issues, the ones that matter, imo. Voldemort and his Death Eaters were a hot topic when this group was in school. Lily could not really discuss this with Snape because their viewpoints would end in a constant confrontation, imo. If Lily was called a Mudblood by Mulciber, she would be upset, but she could hardly complain to Snape about that because he is going around saying the same thing. The issue would turn to Snape's use of it - another fight. They couldn't address the dark arts because Snape would be for it and Lily against it, another confrontation, imo. Therefore the topics that were truly facing that group at the time were off limits for those two unless they wanted to fight. Snape couldn't discuss his friends because Lily detested them. Quidditch was probably off limits for obvious reasons and other House oriented sports or teams would likely be a confrontational topic too, imo. As we saw in the memories, Snape was not very into discussing his home life and it is not likely that Lily would raise the topic of Petunia seeing as Snape didn't get on with her. So their conversations would be limited on topics that were meaningful to them, imo.

But Lily still felt comfortable telling Snape that she didnt like his friends. Lily is the type of person who doesn't like not expressing her opinions,imo. I think their friendship might have consisted of her ranting/spilling her problems and Snape was the quiet listener who never tried to give her advice (except on potter) and was kindoff like her little therapist, but was really just admiring her.. well you know. I could be wrong but that's what there relationship seemed like to me. Lily seemed to be the dominant one. Maybe they tried not to let house compeitions affect their relationship either, but I do agree that itwould be kind of hard, which may be why they started to drift apart.

Saying they were doesn't mean they fit the definition. What we're shown of their relationship is very different from other "best friends" in the series - like Harry and Ron, and Sirius and James.

James and Sirius is another friendship we see only Sirius's viewpoint; james's views we learn only through Sirius.

In Harry's and Ron's case, there were many, many places where Ron was not what I would call a good friend. But Harry was; he was a great friend IMO and that was what kept the friendship going. He could have broken off in GOF, when Ron was so jealous, in DH when Ron walks away, but Harry, simply brushes aside Ron's jealousy and envy and keeps the friendship going IMO.

I see Lily as a pretty strong woman, who wouldn't tolerate a relationship with a man who wouldn't listen to her - that is, when she grew older and more mature and gained more wisdom of healthy relationships. I think even if Snape had not been hanging out with Mulciber and Avery, she would have still strongly objected to his obsession with the dark arts, his ambition to become a death eater, and the fact that he just never listened to her. Bad communication can break a lot of friendships.

I agree with your last sentence, bad communication can break a lot of frinedships; I think Lily did not communicate properly to Snape the night of the SWM and also before that about how serious she was concerning his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and IMO on the night of the SWM when she delivers a speech, and walks off.

But I respectfully disagree with you about Lily being unable to tolerate a man who would not listen to her. In my opinion, I feel that would be unhealthy. I think partnerships need to be equal in areas of respect, trust, love and decision making. I think Lily had a pretty equal relationship with Snape. They were equals and they probably vibed well for sometime, before everything went wrong IMO. :)

Imo, if Lily and Snape's friendship had reached a point of respect, trust, love and decision making together, they would have become romantically involved. JKR said Lily would have been interested in Snape romantically if it were not for his dark interests and acts. Imo, Lily would not respect Snape calling people Mudblood, investing time in the dark arts and hanging with dark arts thinking people. Imo, the two never reached a stage where they had to make decisions that would impact both of them because of this. I am not sure how Lily came to love Snape as a friend because the canon did not show us anything lovable about young Snape, imo.

I meant only about Lily's decision making abilities Wicked! :)

Not with Snape or James. I was responding to DM''s statement in her post that Lily was a *strong woman who would not tolerate a relationship with a man who would not listent to her*. :)

Perhaps I should have started *Snape had a pretty equal friendship with Lily* in the next paragraph. :lol:

Imo, if Lily and Snape's friendship had reached a point of respect, trust, love and decision making together, they would have become romantically involved. JKR said Lily would have been interested in Snape romantically if it were not for his dark interests and acts. Imo, Lily would not respect Snape calling people Mudblood, investing time in the dark arts and hanging with dark arts thinking people. Imo, the two never reached a stage where they had to make decisions that would impact both of them because of this. I am not sure how Lily came to love Snape as a friend because the canon did not show us anything lovable about young Snape, imo.

His interest in the dark arts definitly did put a damper on things. But I do disagree with your last statement. because sometimes it's nice to know that your not alone. Lily had magical abilities in a muggle family so she had no one in her life that was able to fully understand. Snape understood what it was like and was willing to explain things and answer her questions. It's nice to have that kind of guidance.

Lily could not really discuss this with Snape because their viewpoints would end in a constant confrontation, imo.Agreed. This is really the heart of the eventual breaking of the friendship between Lily and Snape; this issue was indeed the greatest sticking point.
If Lily was called a Mudblood by Mulciber, she would be upset, but she could hardly complain to Snape about that because he is going around saying the same thing.This is true. As an aside, I believe that if Lily happen to have been called a mudblood by one of the future Death Eaters, it wouldn't have hurt her nearly as much as if Snape himself called her a mudblood since they would have been known enemies, but Snape was supposed to be her friend. I believe this is why a long-lasting friendship was ultimately impossible for the two of them, though it would have been possible if Snape had renounced the Dark Arts and his Death Eater friends when Lily voiced her opinions of them.If your own friends cannot stand up for you for a wrong, it hurts and it hurts worse when your friend is doing that same wrong to others, imo.I agree.But I respectfully disagree with you about Lily being unable to tolerate a man who would not listen to her. In my opinion, I feel that would be unhealthy.I agree. I don't believe Lily ended the friendship because Snape wouldn't listen to her. It was because of the path he was heading down, which would not only be destructive to their friendship and to other people when Snape participated in Dark Arts, it was also destructive to Snape himself. I believe if it had been another issue that wasn't so morally loaded in which Snape didn't listen to Lily, Lily wouldn't have ended the friendship.

But despite the wedge that the Dark Arts drove between Lily and Snape, there was still room for the two of them to be valued friends to each other, especially in the very beginning. It seems like the two of them hung out a lot before even going to Hogwarts, which would have helped solidify a friendship. And later on when they got to school it seems they shared an aptitude for Potions, which was something they could mutually talk about. I'll bet they probably studied together too, most likely outside or in the library so that they could be away from their respective common rooms and house mates who would disapprove of their friendship.

As far as I see, Lily and James disagreed on alot of things morally. But they still worked it out. I think people can change themselves for love.

I think the only thing that Lily had a problem with James was that he was bullying and that he hexed people for the fun of it. Of course that isn't great, but Lily's harsh words struck a nerve for him, and that played a factor in his change in behavior. We don't know exactly what made him change, but I always interpreted James' change to be natural maturity rather than Lily being the sole reason for his change.

And now back on topic. :whistle:

James and Sirius is another friendship we see only Sirius's viewpoint; james's views we learn only through Sirius.

In Harry's and Ron's case, there were many, many places where Ron was not what I would call a good friend. But Harry was; he was a great friend IMO and that was what kept the friendship going. He could have broken off in GOF, when Ron was so jealous, in DH when Ron walks away, but Harry, simply brushes aside Ron's jealousy and envy and keeps the friendship going IMO.

Without getting too into Harry and Ron's friendship, I just have to say that what happened between them was a normal part of friendships. Every friendship is tested through arguments and fights, and Ron and Harry went through the same thing. Harry forgave Ron for being jealous and leaving him and Ron learned his lesson.

Lily and Snape are different. They had fights, but it was over what I consider to be more serious issues. James and Sirius and Ron and Harry never had issues as deep. Snape wanted to join a group that wanted Lily dead. Almost every scene showed them quibbling over something, and I find that to be a weaker sign of friendship. They were always in conflict and their beliefs seemed to clash, IMO.

But despite the wedge that the Dark Arts drove between Lily and Snape, there was still room for the two of them to be valued friends to each other, especially in the very beginning. It seems like the two of them hung out a lot before even going to Hogwarts, which would have helped solidify a friendship. And later on when they got to school it seems they shared an aptitude for Potions, which was something they could mutually talk about. I'll bet they probably studied together too, most likely outside or in the library so that they could be away from their respective common rooms and house mates who would disapprove of their friendship.

I agree, and I have had many fantastic conversations about school subjects with friends, but not every time I meet with them. Even in my current study groups when discussing law, we often roam off topic to deeper personal and moral issues. But for Lily and Snape that would be difficult because those topics would dwindle to confrontations, imo. This is why I say the topics would be school subjects and surface issues (I got a new pair of shoes). That would also be a reason why the relationship grew distant, imo, early on. Lily said she'd been making excuses for "years" which means that their divergence in viewpoint went back quite some time before 5th year. According to canon, Snape entered Hogwarts with dark arts interests, so I would imagine the distancing started sooner than later. But I agree they could still be friends, just not of the through thick and thin type, imo.

I think the only thing that Lily had a problem with James was that he was bullying and that he hexed people for the fun of it. Of course that isn't great, but Lily's harsh words struck a nerve for him, and that played a factor in his change in behavior. We don't know exactly what made him change, but I always interpreted James' change to be natural maturity rather than Lily being the sole reason for his change.

And now back on topic. :whistle:



Without getting too into Harry and Ron's friendship, I just have to say that what happened between them was a normal part of friendships. Every friendship is tested through arguments and fights, and Ron and Harry went through the same thing. Harry forgave Ron for being jealous and leaving him and Ron learned his lesson.

Lily and Snape are different. They had fights, but it was over what I consider to be more serious issues. James and Sirius and Ron and Harry never had issues as deep. Snape wanted to join a group that wanted Lily dead. Almost every scene showed them quibbling over something, and I find that to be a weaker sign of friendship. They were always in conflict and their beliefs seemed to clash, IMO.

But see, the bigger the issue the better the frienship after it's resolved so ahd Lily let this get resloved, they would've been even closer. And you said Snape wanted to jin a group (detaheaters) well we don't ahve proof taht he wanted to join at the time.

But see, the bigger the issue the better the frienship after it's resolved so ahd Lily let this get resloved, they would've been even closer.

IMO, it only would have been resolved had Snape changed his ways. He did not, therefore nothing was resolved. It was up to Snape to change.

And you said Snape wanted to jin a group (detaheaters) well we don't ahve proof taht he wanted to join at the time.

According to JKR, he did want to become one.

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

The quote does nto state at what point Snape had these thoughts, in Rowling's (unwritten) view of him.

Yes that's hopw she thinks of him but everyone has there own view to see it. Also, Lily didn't actually ahve PROOF taht he did. It was again her opinion.

And yes snape could've resloved it but she could too. It's on both of them.

Yes that's hopw she thinks of him but everyone has there own view to see it. Also, Lily didn't actually ahve PROOF taht he did. It was again her opinion.

Then we have differing views of canon. :) I believe JKR's word and you have every right to consider only the books to be canon. I do believe that he wanted to be a Death Eater at the time or else Lily's comment wouldn't make sense. I don't see any reason why that would be included in the text unless it is given to show that he wanted to be a Death Eater. I respect your view if you see it differently.

And yes snape could've resloved it but she could too. It's on both of them.

What was Lily doing that needed to be resolved between the two of them?

Well does she expect him to be even more of a loner than he wa even in his own house? I mean he can't be friends with just people shes apporoved of just like he didn't do that to her. And who knows, if she stuck by him he wouldn't ahve joined the DE
We don't knwo that.

Yeah, I just see that bit different way :)

Well does she expect him to be even more of a loner than he wa even in his own house? I mean he can't be friends with just people shes apporoved of just like he didn't do that to her.

She was upset because he was becoming friends with the wrong crowd. She didn't want him to be a loner, she wanted him to be friends with people that she thought were "evil." It's natural for a concerned friend to feel that way.

And who knows, if she stuck by him he wouldn't ahve joined the DE

She tried to tell him to stop doing the things he did and he didn't listen. Her words weren't making him change his ways, so she gave up, IMO.

Yes but to try to controls one life and say you can't be friends with that and that.. I mean I understand I don't like someone like taht because I think there dark people but to break off a friendship? nopee. And he could say the same. I mean look at James. Not a perfect guy either there's that risk on him too.

OHH 200th post!!! :D

Yes but to try to controls one life and say you can't be friends with that and that..

She didn't tell him to not be friends with them, but she was voicing her concern about them. She didn't understand why he was friends with them. Never did she say that he can't be around them.

OHH 200th post!!! :D

Congrats! :D

:D

But don't you think she said it in a subtle kind of way? And getting edgy like that and poiting out so strongly that hey we are totally different and like differnet people and ending abruptly like that leaves a kind of stillness for theer friendship?

:D

But don't you think she said it in a subtle kind of way? And getting edgy like that and poiting out so strongly that hey we are totally different and like differnet people and ending abruptly like that leaves a kind of stillness for theer friendship?

Well, no, but if you have canon that backs it up, I'll appreciate it. :)

I thought Snape was the one who seemed more controlling. After all, he said that he won't "let" her in the conversation when Lily was voicing her concerns of the friendship he formed between Mulciber and Avery.

Well why would he? I mean it's his life and plus It's not her business. Also, if he loves her, would he wnat to talk about awkward things. I think he wabted to stay happy friends while she kept getting more and more intense. he didnt want taht

Well why would he? I mean it's his life and plus It's not her business. Also, if he loves her, would he wnat to talk about awkward things. I think he wabted to stay happy friends while she kept getting more and more intense. he didnt want taht

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you explain? :)

Here's where Snape says that he won't "let" Lily.

Snape's whole face contorted and he spluttered. "Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to - I won't let you - "

IMO, that is a lot more controlling than anything Lily ever said.

what was he talking about again that he said I won't let you? :)(

It's okay, I mean that she was kind of pushing the conversation to the awkward moment you know? And Snape knew we're different and iut's going to end badly if we keep goig this way so he tried avoiding you know?

what was he talking about again that he said I won't let you? :)(

Here's how the conversation got to that point:


Lily is talking about Mulciber and Avery and that they used the Dark Arts
Snape distracts her by mentioning the Marauders
Lily asks what they have to do with anything
Snape replies that there's something suspicious about Remus
Lily asks why he's so obsessed with them and mentions that he's ungrateful for what James did to him (save his life)
Snape replies with the conversation I typed up in my last post


I might be wrong because I haven't read DH for a long time, but I think that's how it went.

And getting edgy like that and poiting out so strongly that hey we are totally different and like differnet people and ending abruptly like that leaves a kind of stillness for theer friendship?I believe if they were such different people, perhaps it was impossible to sustain a viable friendship. Given that the issue they disagreed on was not something superficial, but rather something fundamental, it seemed unlikely that no matter what Lily said, Snape would never have seen it her way. Just my opinion of course. :)

Opposites attract :p and they were tight as kids it's not going to chnage unless they make it chnage you know?

Bueatifaclly, I think you're right but I'm losty, why did he say I won't let you?

Bueatifaclly, I think you're right but I'm losty, why did he say I won't let you?

Well, she believed that James saved his life and he probably didn't want her to believe that James was a good guy. He may have suspected that she harbored feelings for him. It's not clear on why he said it but it's left to interpretation.

Ohhh I see!
taht makes sense. And see they both actually did taht to eachother though... not just Snape and he's not more to blame actually (IMO)

I think Lily did not communicate properly to Snape the night of the SWM and also before that about how serious she was concerning his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and IMO on the night of the SWM when she delivers a speech, and walks off.
IMO, she voiced her opinions pretty clearly on the night of SWM, and during. As well as her conversation with him after the shack incident. But to each his own :)

But I respectfully disagree with you about Lily being unable to tolerate a man who would not listen to her. In my opinion, I feel that would be unhealthy. I think partnerships need to be equal in areas of respect, trust, love and decision making. I think Lily had a pretty equal relationship with Snape. They were equals and they probably vibed well for sometime, before everything went wrong IMO. :)
IMO, Lily should listen to Snape, and Snape should listen to Lily. We see Snape completely ignore her concerns, try to brush them off, and try to distract her with something else without really resolving the real issue. That is not healthy in a relationship (otherwise how would they resolve the issues? Imo, you can't ignore them entirely) and I think Lily realised that. I did not see an equal relationship at all. I don't think Snape not listening to her was the only factor in the break up at all, but Lily did seem very frustrated with the fact he didn't and it's because he never listened to her that he though becoming a death eater would impress her imo.

Bueatifaclly, I think you're right but I'm losty, why did he say I won't let you?
I saw it as "I won't let you like James!" in the context of the argument.

Ohhh I see!
taht makes sense. And see they both actually did taht to eachother though... not just Snape and he's not more to blame actually (IMO)What did Lily do that was to blame? She made efforts to stay friends with Snape and he ignored those and her warnings. Keeping their friendship would have just been foolish at this point IMO. Lily though Snape was too far down a dark parth and she couldn't follow, and so do I. :)

She was pushy aswell and she expected too much out of him you know? And she did always turn there convos into something hard to talk about and what ot. Also she brought up subjects that would give there friendship a hardtime.
And I'm not saying that Snape Isn't to blame because they both are IMO

She was pushy aswell and she expected too much out of him you know? And she did always turn there convos into something hard to talk about and what ot. Also she brought up subjects that would give there friendship a hardtime.
And I'm not saying that Snape Isn't to blame because they both are IMOExamples, please? :) I didn't see Lily as pushy at all, what gives you that idea? When you say she brought up things that were hard to talk about, do you mean Snape's family? That seems to be the only one I can think of, and Snape seem to want to talk about that. Remember, he had very few friends at the time and needed someone to talk to. Everyone can have their own opinion, but I really didn't see any canon to support this. :)

No I meant like who each of them be-friends. And an example would be that she wants Snape to do what she always thinks is rigt. Eg. who he be-friends.

No I meant like who each of them be-friends. And an example would be that she wants Snape to do what she always thinks is rigt. Eg. who he be-friends.

Because she doesn't want him to be friends with people that are going down the wrong path, IMO. I don't think it's a bad thing because most people would feel that way about the person they love, especially parents. Not a lot of people want to see someone they know is good hang out with a group of people that use evil forms of magic against others as a form of entertainment.

She was pushy aswell and she expected too much out of him you know?
No, I don't know. Could you elaborate? :)

And she did always turn there convos into something hard to talk about and what ot. Also she brought up subjects that would give there friendship a hardtime.
So Lily should have ignored her worries and just pretended everything was fine and dandy between them when it clearly was not and she was obviously bothered by it? I don't think she should have ignored the issues if they were causing her stress and worry over someone who was supposed to be a friend (who never listened to her or respected her imo). I think it would have been unhealthy if she had kept everything bottled up. You should be able to talk to your friends and boyfriends/girlfriends about issues that bother you, issues you care about, and things in the relationship that bother you that you hope can be worked on if the relationship is close imo. I also don't think Lily would have been a good friend if she hadn't tried to be the good influence on Snape.

What bothered her was his friends.... which he was bothered about hers aswell. I mean, who knows, the way James acted aswell as how Snape acted resullts in people thinking he could be a DE soon.. They both used magic (as beautifically put it) as a form of entertainment.

What bothered her was his friends.... which he was bothered about hers aswell. I mean, who knows, the way James acted aswell as how Snape acted resullts in people thinking he could be a DE soon.. They both used magic (as beautifically put it) as a form of entertainment.

Lily wasn't friends with James at that time, especially since she called him an arrogant toerag. She dated him after he changed, too. Snape, on the other hand, was friends with Mulciber and Avery and found their use of Dark Magic on Mary amusing.

He could ahve too changed aswell if he had her by his side. Now he had no "good influence"

He could ahve too changed aswell if he had her by his side. Now he had no "good influence"

When she was his friend he didn't do anything. After she was his friend he didn't do anything. It was only her death that woke up him. What could Lily have done? He wasn't listening to her.

Do you believe that Lily has no blame whatsoever?

Do you believe that Lily has no blame whatsoever?

For what Snape did? No because I don't believe in putting the blame on other people for what one person did. As I have said multiple times, the theme of the Harry Potter series is the importance of choice, and I believe that only Snape should be responsible for what he did. No one forced him to make the choices he made for he was the one who willingly made them. Lily tried her best to make him stray away from the path he was on, but he ignored her words.I cannot blame her for what her best friend did when she tried to stop him. Snape alone should be held responsible for what he did, IMO.

I respect taht but disagree. I mena yes Snape did what he did but the loss of the friendship was with them both, no?

Do you believe that Lily has no blame whatsoever?Blame in ending their friendship? The only blame she has was that she was theone who ended it, but it was all done only because Snape refused to listen to her. That was not her fault at all. No good would have come of continuing their friendship, especially after Snape called her a Mudblood.

I respect taht but disagree. I mena yes Snape did what he did but the loss of the friendship was with them both, no?

What did Lily do wrong? I don't see anything she did was wrong, but I'm interested in your thoughts. :)

He could ahve too changed aswell if he had her by his side. Now he had no "good influence"
He had her by his side and she was having no influence on him imo. He was getting worse, rather than better, even with her as a "best friend". She had no influence on him during their friendship imo.

He had her by his side and she was having no influence on him imo. He was getting worse, rather than better, even with her as a "best friend". She had no influence on him during their friendship imo.I completely agree. I'm still trying to understand how it was Lily's fault that Snape was hanging around with Death Eaters. What really annoyed Lily most though, is not that Snape was hanging around with them, when he knew she really thought they were cruel, but how Snape repeatedly ignored her warnings. Why should she want to be friends with someone like that?

Not her fault she was with them (and tehy weren't DE's at the time)
but how can she expect him not to? I mean he's in slytherin with them. Does she want him to be treated how James and posse treat him aswell?

Not her fault she was with them (and tehy weren't DE's at the time):huh: I'm afraid I don't understand. Not Lily's fault that she was with who? And even if they weren't Death Eaters, they were clearly right on the path to it.but how can she expect him not to? I mean he's in slytherin with them. Does she want him to be treated how James and posse treat him aswell?I think that's unfair. He doesn't have to hang out with those particular people just because he's in Slytherin. There are some good Slytherins. And if Snape loved Lily, he would have listened to her. I don't see any way around that. :)

Well see at the time don't you think a lot of the Death Eaters were in that common room "going on taht path"?
So he was surrounded you know?

I meant not Lily's fault who he was friends with...

Well see at the time don't you think a lot of the Death Eaters were in that common room "going on taht path"?
So he was surrounded you know?
We actually don't know how many future death eaters were in his year (Mulciber and Avery might not have been in his year either). In Harry's time, there were Slytherins that weren't planning on becoming death eaters, and I don't see how Snape's year was an exception. Yes Lily didn't like his friends, but I think what really drove her over the edge was the fact that Snape believed in what they believed in, he found the dark magic funny like they did, and he wanted to become a death eater just like them.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this issue, hmm? :)

:lol: okay for the sake of your peacekeeping :p

Well, no, but if you have canon that backs it up, I'll appreciate it. :)

I thought Snape was the one who seemed more controlling. After all, he said that he won't "let" her in the conversation when Lily was voicing her concerns of the friendship he formed between Mulciber and Avery.

And he backed away real fast when Lily glared at him and asked him what he meant (I forgot the exact words). So Lily was not submissive either. I personally think they had a friendship of equals. :)

Without getting too into Harry and Ron's friendship, I just have to say that what happened between them was a normal part of friendships. Every friendship is tested through arguments and fights, and Ron and Harry went through the same thing. Harry forgave Ron for being jealous and leaving him and Ron learned his lesson.

Lily and Snape are different. They had fights, but it was over what I consider to be more serious issues. James and Sirius and Ron and Harry never had issues as deep. Snape wanted to join a group that wanted Lily dead. Almost every scene showed them quibbling over something, and I find that to be a weaker sign of friendship. They were always in conflict and their beliefs seemed to clash, IMO.

Well jealously I thought was one of the more serious vices and Ron had it in spades IMO, towards Harry. :) Had it been anyone else, I think they would have broken off their friendship with Ron or at least the friendship would not have been as close as it had been in the past. But Harry was such a good friend he was able to look beyond jealousy and Ron's envy IMO.

I also think Snape was a very good friend in the same sense, that he was able to look beyond Lily's breaking off with him, realizing that he had made a mistake. While he was not a DE or doing dark magic and Lily was breaking off with him because of a swear word that he should have never used on her, he also valued her friendship and all that it had given him, along with his love of her both as a friend and romantically, to sustain him as long as he lived IMO.

I think Harry and Snape kept their friends in the highest regard mainly because such friendship or acceptance was a rare commodity for them IMO.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you explain? :)

Here's where Snape says that he won't "let" Lily.

Snape's whole face contorted and he spluttered. "Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends' too! You're not going to - I won't let you - "

IMO, that is a lot more controlling than anything Lily ever said.

I thought Snape said he won't let Lily be friends or more with james, because Snape thought that if they were capable of sending him into the tunnel to face a fully grown werewolf and call it a prank, they were dangerous and Lily should stay away from such boys IMO.



But despite the wedge that the Dark Arts drove between Lily and Snape, there was still room for the two of them to be valued friends to each other, especially in the very beginning. It seems like the two of them hung out a lot before even going to Hogwarts, which would have helped solidify a friendship. And later on when they got to school it seems they shared an aptitude for Potions, which was something they could mutually talk about. I'll bet they probably studied together too, most likely outside or in the library so that they could be away from their respective common rooms and house mates who would disapprove of their friendship.

I agree. It was a friendship that was because they truly loved each other IMO. They were so different and yet they had so much in common I suppose that they were wble to hang in there for so long. And Snape has such good memories of his days with her, that he is willing to spend a lifetime in repentence for harming her. That kind of remorse was not only because Snape loved her romantically as well, but it was also becuase Lily loved him as well, as a friend.

While we are shown only arguments between the 2 friends, I think the depth of their friendship is shown in Snape's regret and his remorse for the next 20 years, and the fact that he is unable to forget the good times he shared with her, implying that those times were indeed very, very good.

Just like Dumbledore, who was unable to forget the three months or so of intense friendship and love that he developed towards GG.

Of course another factor was that both of them were in some way reponsible for harming their love in Snape's case and harming his sister in Dumbledore's IMO.

Examples, please? :) I didn't see Lily as pushy at all, what gives you that idea? :)

One instance would be when she glares down Snape when he says "I won't let you." and he backs off very fast. Lily was a girl with a mind of her own, and she took decisions on her own. And I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as she is able to respect others too IMO. :)

I thought Snape said he won't let Lily be friends or more with james, because Snape thought that if they were capable of sending him into the tunnel to face a fully grown werewolf and call it a prank, they were dangerous and Lily should stay away from such boys IMO.

Imo, that is not what Snape meant. He explained himself once he had backed down. He said, 'I didn't mean - I just don't want to see you made a fool of - He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!'

He didn't mention anything about danger, he was concerned that she would take a serious interest in James and he blurted out that he wouldn't let her do that, imo. After that he went on to speak about James being a Quidditch Hero - so he was talking about James' arrogance, nothing to do with danger, imo. And when Lily said 'you don't have to tell me he's an arrogant toe rag' then Snape was all smiles and walking on air again. :lol:.

Yes but see, if she gets mad at what she thought he meant, obviously if he loves her he could change it and pretend itw as different.... you don't know taht and obviously he did want to look out for her.

Yes but see, if she gets mad at what she thought he meant, obviously if he loves her he could change it and pretend itw as different.... you don't know taht and obviously he did want to look out for her.
And helping the death eaters was the way to do it?

Thats' about his only fault. Can you name anymore?
And he did make up for it.

Thats' about his only fault. Can you name anymore?
Joining the death eaters was his only fault? Sure I can name some more :)

He never listened to Lily. IMO, friends who want a healthy relationship need to listen to one another, and Snape never did in canon. He didn't listen to her warnings about his friends and interests - he only listened to her call James a toerag. He only listened to what he wanted to hear from her. That is not a good friend imo, and I think that he would not have listened to anything Lily wanted to talk about had he not found it interesting.

He didn't respect Lily (imo and here's why - ). Ignoring her concerns is one of the big reasons that make me believe Snape did not respect Lily for who she was. I got the impression that Lily really wanted to be heard in those arguments in SWM, and what did Snape do? He ignored them and brought up topics that had nothing to do with her initial. Calling her a mudblood and joining the death eaters are further signs on disrespect imo. And the greatest sign of disrespect I see is his treatment of the son she had died for. To me that was disrespect of her memory and I do not think Lily would have been very happy with him for it. Actually, I think she would have been disgusted at this behavior. He was a bully towards Harry imo and he was the one that was supposed to be the adult. The fact that he abused his position of power while doing it makes it even worse imo.

He was selfish imo. Again, the not listening ties into this. He didn't want to hear what Lily had to say imo, unless it was about badmouthing James - the one who wanted her as a girlfriend. He didn't care about her being upset over her sister in the train to Hogwarts imo. Brushing it off with a "So? She's only a - ". And he asked Voldemort to spare her in exchange for her husband and son, without thinking about how she would feel about it imo. What mother would want to outlive her son? It would have been horrible for Lily had that request been fulfilled.

Also, even if being a death eater was his only flaw, that would be a pretty bad one in and of itself. He joined a group that partook in genocide. He believed that muggleborns were inferior and joined a group that's goal was to wipe them out - including Lily. I find it sick that he thought this would impress Lily. While on duty, he also gave the prophecy to Voldemort, knowing that him doing so would result in the death of an innocent family.

you really think he was selfish? He risked his life as it ended off... He made a lot of sacrifices.. He out up with a lot.
Lily didn't put up a great frienship either. Snape had a horrible influence growing up, much greater than Lily's, he was raised taht way. He did wjat he didn't think had a horrible end. But after the loss of Lily he comes out of that.

you really think he was selfish? He risked his life as it ended off... He made a lot of sacrifices..
Yes, I do. I don't think he thought about how Lily would feel if this or that happened, I think in their relationship he thought mostly for himself. (I'm one of those people that interpreted his motives against Voldemort as revenge :p).

Snape had a horrible influence growing up, much greater than Lily's, he was raised taht way. He did wjat he didn't think had a horrible end. But after the loss of Lily he comes out of that.
But choice is emphasized so much in the series, despite childhood. Harry (in my opinion) suffered worse than Snape during childhood, and he did not want to join a group of people dedicated to killing his "best friend".

Agree to disagree? :)

But Lily still felt comfortable telling Snape that she didnt like his friends. Lily is the type of person who doesn't like not expressing her opinions,imo. I think their friendship might have consisted of her ranting/spilling her problems and Snape was the quiet listener who never tried to give her advice (except on potter) and was kindoff like her little therapist, but was really just admiring her.. well you know. I could be wrong but that's what there relationship seemed like to me.
I'm gonna disagree. The problems that Lily was discussing were Snape's not Lily's. The issue was Snape hanging out with the wrong crowd, not that Lily disliked them. Sure, she did dislike them, but considering the kind of people they were, she had good reason to. The text also shows that Snape was not the quiet listener at all. In fact, Snape constantly interrupts her strictures and changes the topic, just so they wouldn't have to discuss the real problem.

Lily seemed to be the dominant one. Maybe they tried not to let house compeitions affect their relationship either, but I do agree that itwould be kind of hard, which may be why they started to drift apart.
I don't see how Lily really comes across as the dominant one, because it's Snape who controls the conversation. Lily is pleading with him the whole time. It also didn't seem that the house politics were ever an issue for them. Lily doesn't discriminate against anyone because they're in a different house, nor does she imply that her friends did.

His interest in the dark arts definitly did put a damper on things. But I do disagree with your last statement. because sometimes it's nice to know that your not alone. Lily had magical abilities in a muggle family so she had no one in her life that was able to fully understand. Snape understood what it was like and was willing to explain things and answer her questions. It's nice to have that kind of guidance.
It was nice, but not essential, IMO. Lily seemed to be dealing with it pretty well. She was well on the way to convincing Petunia that it was OK, it seems.

The quote does nto state at what point Snape had these thoughts, in Rowling's (unwritten) view of him.
If Snape was conflicted between choosing Lily or Mulciber, it would mean that it was while they were still friends, IMO. Besides, Snape doesn't deny when Lily accuses him of these things.

Yes that's hopw she thinks of him but everyone has there own view to see it. Also, Lily didn't actually ahve PROOF taht he did. It was again her opinion.

And yes snape could've resloved it but she could too. It's on both of them.
I agree that everyone is free to form their own conclusions. But, I also believe that the author's opinion is canon.

Lily's accusation was not contested by Snape. Thus, there was never a question of proof being needed. Snape essentially admits that they were true, and his later actions confirm it.

Well does she expect him to be even more of a loner than he wa even in his own house? I mean he can't be friends with just people shes apporoved of just like he didn't do that to her.
I think that you're missing the point here. Lily wanted Snape to keep away from Avery and Mulciber, because they were evil. It was not just her opinion, it was the fact. Lily didn't disapprove of his friends because she wanted her to spend more time with him, or because they were Slytherins. All she wants is for him to stay away from racist bullies. It's not an unreasonable request.

Yes but to try to controls one life and say you can't be friends with that and that.. I mean I understand I don't like someone like taht because I think there dark people but to break off a friendship? nopee.
I don't see this at all. It was never Lily's intention to run Snape's life. All she does is to ask him. It was never about Lily's personal preferences in people, it was about Snape hanging out with budding criminals.

And he could say the same. I mean look at James. Not a perfect guy either there's that risk on him too.
What exactly do you mean by that? Lily wasn't friends with James. So, how could Snape say the same?

Well why would he? I mean it's his life and plus It's not her business.
It is Lily's business, if Snape wants her in his life. That's how relationships work, IMO.

Also, if he loves her, would he wnat to talk about awkward things.
Because, these 'awkward things' are a problem for Lily?

I think he wabted to stay happy friends while she kept getting more and more intense. he didnt want taht
I think it's more than he didn't realise that their relationship would depend on more than how he treated her. He doesn't realise that Lily also cares about how he treats everyone. There might be some people who don't care about that kind of thing, but Lily wasn't like that. IMO, he doesn't realise that to the very end.

In the scene after SWM, Snape only apologises for his calling her a mudblood, nothing else. There is no indication at all that he regrets anything else. That, IMO, is why Lily utterly refuses to give him any more chances, because she realises that he would never understand. I don't think that Snape ever understood the value of a kind word or a sympathetic gesture, to the very end, unless it benefited him in some way. This is reflected, IMO, in his appalling treatment of others throughout the series.

She was pushy aswell and she expected too much out of him you know?
No, I don't know. Lily didn't say, "Stop hanging out with them, or it's over between us." That would have been pushy. What she did was to plead and reason with him. Though, in all probability, being pushy would have worked with Snape.

Lily expects Snape to be compassionate, to see that Dark Magic isn't 'just a bit of fun'. IMO, it's not unreasonable of her to expect that, considering how he's shown her kindness.

And she did always turn there convos into something hard to talk about and what ot.
Lily was a popular girl, with many friends. It seems that she has had to take a lot of flak for being friends with Snape, because of his activities. Lily had to lie and make excuses to her other friends, for Snape's sake. So, it doesn't surprise me that they were talking about that. Perhaps, Snape could have made an effort to not put Lily in such situations?

Also she brought up subjects that would give there friendship a hardtime.
Lily wasn't the kind of person who would shut out the world and pretend that everything was just fine. She cared about Snape, and saw that he was falling into bad friendships.

And I'm not saying that Snape Isn't to blame because they both are IMO
I don't see this at all, based on what you've posted. Lily is to blame, because she brought up her concerns about him? I disagree completely.

I have to wonder how one arrives at revenge and how it is justified as his leading drive for turning against Voldemort, when we have a very clear, straightforward explanation of his motive in black and white on page - "You can make sure her sacrifice wasn't in vain" (paraphrase) - which makes Snape swerve from "I want to be dead" to "I'll live to protect the chiled". As much as I try to see where the revenge explanation stems from, I can't see anything else apart from the fact that it fits better with a more unfavourable personal view of Snape's character.

I have to wonder how one arrives at revenge and how it is justified as his leading drive for turning against Voldemort, when we have a very clear, straightforward explanation of his motive in black and white on page - "You can make sure her sacrifice wasn't in vain" (paraphrase) - which makes Snape swerve from "I want to be dead" to "I'll live to protect the chiled". As much as I try to see where the revenge explanation stems from, I can't see anything else apart from the fact that it fits better with a more unfavourable personal view of Snape's character.

I respect your opinion, but I would respectfully disagree that Snape's character would be appear less favorable because he wanted revenge in order to bring Voldemort to justice. Imo, he would look far worse if he didn't care enough about her demise to want revenge. This is especially true because imo, Snape behaved in a vindictive manner on a regular basis; he took revenge on Lupin telling of his werewolf status (POA), he took revenge on Harry when the child broke into his pensieve by breaking his flask and giving him a zero mark (OOTP), he took revenge on Neville when he found out he was his worst fear and had been boggarted by treating Neville 'worst than ever' (POA), and he told Sirius he'd been waiting to get revenge verbally (POA). So it is within Snape's character to seek and when possible, take revenge, imo, and thus, it would be saying something negative imo, if Snape wanted revenge for those things I mention where the results were negligible in comparison to Lily's death and yet he not want revenge for her demise.

Snape did not seek revenge against Voldemort, but he knew the prophecy and that his efforts would be of no avail. But in essence, Snape made the promise to protect Harry so he could presumably grow up and kill Voldemort, that was tied into Lily's death not being in vain. Imo, Snape would want that too with respect to his own need for revenge.

However, the canon does not definitively state that Snape either wanted or didn't want revenge, so your view is a respectable possibility. It just seems more propable that Snape did want revenge for Lily's death based on his character, in my judgment.

EDIT: I've moved my answer to Snape's thread.

I have to wonder how one arrives at revenge and how it is justified as his leading drive for turning against Voldemort, when we have a very clear, straightforward explanation of his motive in black and white on page - "You can make sure her sacrifice wasn't in vain" (paraphrase) - which makes Snape swerve from "I want to be dead" to "I'll live to protect the chiled". As much as I try to see where the revenge explanation stems from, I can't see anything else apart from the fact that it fits better with a more unfavourable personal view of Snape's character.Totally, totally agree! It's there on the page - we don't have to go looking for SNape's motive. And it is born out by his reaction to the news that HArry must die. If he purely wanted revenge on Voldemort then he wouldn't have cared as long as Voldemort went down. As it is he did care that his reason for living - the sole purpose of his life was all for naught.

Imo, he would look far worse if he didn't care enough about her demise to want revenge. I take great exception to this statement. Not wanting revenge does not mean that someone does not care. We see that Snape does want revenge for the petty things in his life - he wants to prove he is better than the marauders - However IMO Lily's death was so big, so devastating that he did not care about getting revenge - he just wanted to die. All his feelings for Lily were too powerful to painful for him to dwell on them long enough to want revenge. Also I think that Snape blames himself far more than he did Voldemort. If you give your love's address to a psycho then who is to blame when the psycho kills her? I think that is the way Snape sees it. He knows what Voldemort is and he knows he himself sent Voldemort after Lily - IMO that is why he blames himself.

Totally, totally agree! It's there on the page - we don't have to go looking for SNape's motive. And it is born out by his reaction to the news that HArry must die. If he purely wanted revenge on Voldemort then he wouldn't have cared as long as Voldemort went down. As it is he did care that his reason for living - the sole purpose of his life was all for naught.


I so agree that it wasn't just revenge. Snape wanted to do this out of protection, to make it up to Lily in someway because he blames himself. I do not think that it was purely revenge that guided him.

Maybe, instead of revenge as his motive for turning to the good side, it was regret. I think he regretted very much his role in Lily's death and worked hard to make up for it. Of course, it wasn't his sole motive throughout the rest of the years, but it was part of it, in my opinion.

I take great exception to this statement. Not wanting revenge does not mean that someone does not care. We see that Snape does want revenge for the petty things in his life - he wants to prove he is better than the marauders - However IMO Lily's death was so big, so devastating that he did not care about getting revenge - he just wanted to die. All his feelings for Lily were too powerful to painful for him to dwell on them long enough to want revenge. Also I think that Snape blames himself far more than he did Voldemort. If you give your love's address to a psycho then who is to blame when the psycho kills her? I think that is the way Snape sees it. He knows what Voldemort is and he knows he himself sent Voldemort after Lily - IMO that is why he blames himself.

I respect your view, but then why would he wish for revenge against Sirius Black? At least part of his reason was associated with Lily, imo, because he commented in overt anger that James was well served to die for having trusted in Black (POA). Imo, it does not make sense he would wish revenge on Sirius and not on Voldemort. Even if Snape included his feelings of youthful animosity he had for Sirius in connection with the desire for revenge, imo, Snape had animosity for Voldemort at that point too, a man who had betrayed him and not spared Lily and sponsored Snape's evil deeds in the past, including the one that led to Lily's death. Imo, Snape would feel Voldemeort had evinced more wrongs against him than Sirius ever had.

Maybe, instead of revenge as his motive for turning to the good side, it was regret. I think he regretted very much his role in Lily's death and worked hard to make up for it. Of course, it wasn't his sole motive throughout the rest of the years, but it was part of it, in my opinion.

:tu: Regret/remorse are the only reasons the text suggests to us. This is the explanation for Snape's return that Albus provides to Harry in HBP ("The Seer Overheard"), and it is again mentioned in a scene of "The Prince's Tale".

Perhaps Snape liked Muggle sweets, and this was another reason to work for Albus. :D

From the Snape Thread:


Very -very– very– good point. I hadn't even thought of that. That explains my "Dark" vs "Light" point very well. This would explain why Lily is not keen to believe that Lupin is a Werewolf -against logic- while she argues that Whatever Potter is involved with "not Dark Arts." She's not wrong to like Lupin. She's not wrong to know he isn't Evil But Snape is not wrong to worry about her association with him either. They're being taught that Werewolves are "Dark" element to Defend against. It was the RULE that said Werewolves were to be banned that was wrong. Not Lily- nor Snape- and not Lupin or Potter for being friends with him.

I respect your view, however, I would respectfully disagree that Snape felt that Lily might be in danger from Remus.

First, Snape had lived on campus with Remus for 5 years and no one had been hurt or even threatened harm by Remus to Snape's knowledge based on the canon provided.

Second, Snape was aware that Lily would not break the rules and stop the Willow Tree then enter to determine if his theory was correct the way he had, imo. In other words, Snape could not believe there was a means for Lily to be harmed by Remus unless she entered the shack, and he knew she would not break the rules, imo. If warning her was his only intent, imo, he had already done so and there would have been no further need to bring the matter up again. Snape was aware that Lily would never agree with him that James and friends befriending Remus was an act of Dark Magic and imo, Snape knew that as well.

Third, Snape was obsessed with the Marauders and followed them around to attempt to get them in trouble according to Lily, Sirius and Remus (and Snape did not deny this, but rather changed the topic.) His discovery of Remus was deterimned in this way (he admitted knowing that "every full moon" Remus went to the Shrieking Shack which means he'd been following and watching for several months at least). Imo, his purpose was to expose Remus and get him and the rest of the Mauraders in trouble with the authorities outside of Hogwarts - which is supported by canon because Snape knew that Madame Pomfrey escorted Remus each month, meaning that the administration was aware Remus was a werewolf and had sanctioned his attending Hogwarts. Thus, Snape was aware that any exposure and getting the Marauders and Remus in trouble would not be accomplished via his telling Dumbledore or any of the professors about his discovery - he would have to go to the Ministry or some outside source and imo, that was his plan. This had nothing to do with his worrying about Lily's well being, imo, Snape never said or even intimated that that was the case in canon.

Imo, Lily did not think of Remus as a dark creature because she knew him as her housemate. That is why she appeared to not wish to discuss Lupin with Snape. Imo, she did believe Remus was a werewolf, but did not like the idea that Snape was trying to expose him. Imo, Snape ignored the lesson that Lily was showing him about prejudice and that despite what he thought, he was behaving in a wrongful manner. The latter is confirmed in canon by Lily saying to Snape that he should be greatful to James rather than getting into a good gossip with Snape over the possibility of Remus being a Dark Creature. Lily too saw Remus leave once a month and heard his excuses, she said as much; but she didn't hold it against him even if he were a werewolf - imo, if she had, James would not have dated her; he did not appreciate ill-founded prejudice based on the canon.

Imo, Snape wished to find something dark, dangerous or some form of unsanctioned rule breaking on the part of the Marauders, however, based on canon, he was never able to do so. Lily didn't feel he would, imo, she felt he was wasting his time and her desire was for him to focus on his behavior and interests in order that she might help him down the right path (based on what she said in memory #5 and when she ended the friendship). Snape's conflict with James was not important to her in that light; James was not her friend, but Snape was and she wished for him to heed her advice, imo. I've discussed that other students, professors and Dumbledore could have done more to help Snape follow the light path, however, imo, Lily did just that for him for a number of years and considering that he had emotions for her, if she couldn't help him, I fear none of the others would have been able to help him either. For all of his vulnerability and insecurity JKR indicated he had, he also was resolute in his determination to be a Death Eater, so much so, that Lily made no head way with him and she was in the best position to do so, imo.

And he backed away real fast when Lily glared at him and asked him what he meant (I forgot the exact words). So Lily was not submissive either. I personally think they had a friendship of equals. :)

I really don't want to get into the issue about whether or not Snape was possessive, but in my reply I was just saying that I interpreted Snape's comment that he won't "let" Lily to be more possessive than anything Lily said.

Well jealously I thought was one of the more serious vices and Ron had it in spades IMO, towards Harry. :) Had it been anyone else, I think they would have broken off their friendship with Ron or at least the friendship would not have been as close as it had been in the past. But Harry was such a good friend he was able to look beyond jealousy and Ron's envy IMO.

Which shows they had a strong friendship. :agree:

I also think Snape was a very good friend in the same sense, that he was able to look beyond Lily's breaking off with him, realizing that he had made a mistake. While he was not a DE or doing dark magic and Lily was breaking off with him because of a swear word that he should have never used on her, he also valued her friendship and all that it had given him, along with his love of her both as a friend and romantically, to sustain him as long as he lived IMO.

That was long after Lily broke the friendship, and that wasn't what I was trying to say in my post. I was trying to say that Snape and Lily's friendship during the years that are given in the memories do not show a strong friendship (in my opinion, obviously). The fact that he called her a Mudblood alone shows that their friendship wasn't that strong for me, personally. Plenty of people get humiliated but not all of them take out their anger on their best friend by calling him or her a derogatory word. And that word wasn't taken lightly at the time, especially since Voldemort's regime used that word against those they thought were as bad as animals.

I thought Snape said he won't let Lily be friends or more with james, because Snape thought that if they were capable of sending him into the tunnel to face a fully grown werewolf and call it a prank, they were dangerous and Lily should stay away from such boys IMO.

That is your interpretation and mine is different. :) There isn't much to argue on since we really don't know what he was about to say.

When I read it, I thought he was going to say, "I won't let you be fooled by them", because he knew how unfair this was, and yet couldn't explain why.