Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

I thought Snape said he won't let Lily be friends or more with james, because Snape thought that if they were capable of sending him into the tunnel to face a fully grown werewolf and call it a prank, they were dangerous and Lily should stay away from such boys IMO.


That is your interpretation and mine is different. :) There isn't much to argue on since we really don't know what he was about to say.

Beatifically you are right, I think, when you say that we really don't know what Sev was about to say. That said, I think it is worth thinking about because how we chose to interpret it has huge implications.

While, what we imagine Sev was about to say is formed by our own idea of Sev, that supposition also affects our assessment of his character. I know it’s a bit of a circular argument but I think we have to consider that how we chose to see Sev, or any other character, is strongly affected by our interpretations of these ambiguous moments, which in turn effect how we later judge them in less ambiguous circumstance.

While, what we imagine Sev was about to say is formed by our own idea of Sev, that supposition also affects our assessment of his character. I know it’s a bit of a circular argument but I think we have to consider that how we chose to see Sev, or any other character, is strongly affected by our interpretations of these ambiguous moments, which in turn effect how we later judge them in less ambiguous circumstance.
I agree. We all bring our own view of the world into these interpretations. That is why we so often see things differently from someone else.

When I read it, I thought he was going to say, "I won't let you be fooled by them", because he knew how unfair this was, and yet couldn't explain why.
Spooky! That is exactly what I thought he was going to say as well!

When I read it, I thought he was going to say, "I won't let you be fooled by them", because he knew how unfair this was, and yet couldn't explain why.

Spooky! That is exactly what I thought he was going to say as well!
I thought it was more like, "I won't let you like James in that way!" because right after, he regrettably tells her that James fancies her. And it's only when she tells him she thinks James is an arrogant toerag that he calms down after his little outburst and walks with a spring in his step. I think it was definitely the possibility of James/Lily that was on Snape's mind during that little outburst and in my mind it was the most logical conclusion based on the context it was said in.

But yeah, we all would have different interpretations of it. Makes these boards more interesting I'd say :p

I do kind of agree with you DeliciousMoon - I think the reason why he is going to say "I won't let you be fooled by them" is because he senses that Lily is warming to James, and he doesn't want Lily to become part of the James Potter fanclub. So in a way he is saying "I won't let you like James in that way" because in his opinion Lily wouldn't like James in that way if she knew the "truth" about him; he is worried about her being fooled like everyone else who thinks Potter is great and thinks that the only way Lily could think Potter is great would be if she were "taken in."

Yes, I do. I don't think he thought about how Lily would feel if this or that happened, I think in their relationship he thought mostly for himself. (I'm one of those people that interpreted his motives against Voldemort as revenge :p).


But choice is emphasized so much in the series, despite childhood. Harry (in my opinion) suffered worse than Snape during childhood, and he did not want to join a group of people dedicated to killing his "best friend".

Agree to disagree? :)

:) :agree:

I'm not going to turn this into a Harry thead but I don't agree iwth that :)

I think what he meant by that was basically being protective to Lily... But feeling inside and actually menaing what CathyWeasly and Dilciousmon have posted.

Humph. Yes, well. You should' have favourites as a teacher, of course, but she was one of mine. Your mother,' Slughorn added, in answer to Harry's questioning look. 'Lily Evans. One of the brightest I ever taught. vivacious, you know. VCharming girl. I used to tell her she ought to have been in my house. Very cheeky answers I used to get back, too.'

We have been debating for so long about just what Lily and Snape had in common, and listening to this, I felt that they probably had a lot in common, if Horace Slughorn felt that Lily should have very well be in his House. :)

We have been debating for so long about just what Lily and Snape had in common, and listening to this, I felt that they probably had a lot in common, if Horace Slughorn felt that Lily should have very well be in his House. :)

That's a good point, TGW. :)

But of course Horace would say that. :D Being a Slytherin himself. :p

And Lily gives him cheeky answers about it. ;)

I think you all know my views by now. Genuine friendship, genuine affection on Lily's side, deep and desperate longing on Sev's ... but a troubled friendship too.

Yes and I think the last line is where we differ, in this. :D I think the friendship started showing cracks from around the werewolf incident. And I also presume that the werewolf incident happened in fifth year, adn also Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber in fifth year. So I think simultaneously many things happened. Avery & Mulciber, SWM, werewolf incident, Lily developing a romantic feeling for James and slowly moving away from Snape as well. I think everything happened in fifth year, but until then, I also think their friendship was pretty smooth, close and not troubled at all. :)

Yes and I think the last line is where we differ, in this. :D I think the friendship started showing cracks from around the werewolf incident. And I also presume that the werewolf incident happened in fifth year, adn also Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber in fifth year. So I think simultaneously many things happened. Avery & Mulciber, SWM, werewolf incident, Lily developing a romantic feeling for James and slowly moving away from Snape as well. I think everything happened in fifth year, but until then, I also think their friendship was pretty smooth, close and not troubled at all. :)

I respect your view, but then Lily would have been lying when she said she'd been making excuses for years (DH TPT). Imo, JKR put that in there precisely to show that Lily didn't make a sudden and abrupt decision about the situation. Further, JKR said that Lily may have developed romantic feelings for Snape if it weren't for his dark interests and acts. If what you propose is true, she should have developed those romantic interests! :lol:

I think that Lily made all of those excuses for Snape because deep down, she loved him...Snape introduced her to the wizarding world in many ways. and despite the fact that they moved apart, se will always love him...A person can say that they dont care, but if you have an emotional attachment to someone for long enough, then it becomes impossible to cut someone off completely. I believe, that Lily always cared for Snape, even when she was with James, she had to.

I think everything happened in fifth year, but until then, I also think their friendship was pretty smooth, close and not troubled at all. :)

TGW, I can't come to that conclusion based on what I read in canon. :shrug:

The strains in their friendship would have come because of Sev's childhood prejudice against Muggleborns. It may have started out as a mild prejudice; he may well have got over it too, in different circumstances (I certainly believe he had turned his back on such beliefs by the time he died) but that childhood prejudice is there. We have proof of it, right there in canon. He tries to fight against it, sure -- he tells Lily that being Muggle-born doesn't make a difference. That's to reassure her, of course, about going to Hogwarts. But there is still this fatal flaw in his belief system, deep down -- otherwise he would not have been sucked in so easily into the Slytherin elite. Making an exception for his beloved Lily was not enough -- he had to turn his back on prejudice against all Muggleborns. Tragically, as a teen, he didn't.

I think that Lily made all of those excuses for Snape because deep down, she loved him...Snape introduced her to the wizarding world in many ways. and despite the fact that they moved apart, se will always love him...A person can say that they dont care, but if you have an emotional attachment to someone for long enough, then it becomes impossible to cut someone off completely. I believe, that Lily always cared for Snape, even when she was with James, she had to.

I agree with you pretty much on all of this. Lily was a caring person and wouldn't have stopped caring about her old childhood friend. However, by the time Snape became a fully fledged Death Eater, any contact between himself and her would have been absolutely impossible. She was a happily married woman by then, and she and Severus were on opposing sides of the war. :whistle:

Yes and I think the last line is where we differ, in this. :D I think the friendship started showing cracks from around the werewolf incident. And I also presume that the werewolf incident happened in fifth year, adn also Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber in fifth year. So I think simultaneously many things happened. Avery & Mulciber, SWM, werewolf incident, Lily developing a romantic feeling for James and slowly moving away from Snape as well. I think everything happened in fifth year, but until then, I also think their friendship was pretty smooth, close and not troubled at all. :)

That doesn't make sense at all, considering that Snape and Lily were shown quarelling in every memory we saw of them. There's also the fact that their characters are completely at odds, with Snape not even understanding Lily's compassion and concern. Most importantly, It also contradicts the text, where Lily says that she's been making excuses for him for years. If Jo had wanted to show that everything went haywire in their fifth year, this would have been the time for Lily to say something like how Snape used to be different, or how Snape had changed. What Lily does say implies that Snape had always been that way, and that Lily had put up with it until then.

Humph. Yes, well. You should' have favourites as a teacher, of course, but she was one of mine. Your mother,' Slughorn added, in answer to Harry's questioning look. 'Lily Evans. One of the brightest I ever taught. vivacious, you know. Charming girl. I used to tell her she ought to have been in my house. Very cheeky answers I used to get back, too.'

We have been debating for so long about just what Lily and Snape had in common, and listening to this, I felt that they probably had a lot in common, if Horace Slughorn felt that Lily should have very well be in his House. :)

Slughorn thinks that every promising student should have been in Slytherin, because he wants to add them to his collection. He says the same thing about Sirius Black, about how it was a pity that he missed him. Morover, he later clarifies that he thought that Lily was a pureblood, because she was that good. That sort of explains why he thought Lily should have been in Slytherin, IMO. After all, he thinks that Hermione is a pureblood, at first."Well, anyway, he was a big pal of your father's at school. The whole Black family had been in my House, but Sirius ended up in Gryffindor! Shame — he was a talented boy. I got his brother, Regulus, when he came along, but I'd have liked the set."
He sounded like an enthusiastic collector who had been outbid at auction. Apparently lost in memories, he gazed at the opposite wall, turning idly on the spot to ensure an even heat on his backside.
"Your mother was Muggle-born, of course. Couldn't believe it when I found out. Thought she must have been pure-blood, she was so good."

i dont think we have to put that much emphasis on houses...as dumbledore himself said "sometimes we sort too soon."

I agree with you pretty much on all of this. Lily was a caring person and wouldn't have stopped caring about her old childhood friend. However, by the time Snape became a fully fledged Death Eater, any contact between himself and her would have been absolutely impossible. She was a happily married woman by then, and she and Severus were on opposing sides of the war. :whistle:

I respect your view. Imo, if Lily had been older, then she might have continued to care about Snape and perhaps even try longer to make him see the light and save their friendship. But they were young and imo, they just let things go compeltely and moved on with feelings of animosity forming.

For Snape's part, people were joinging the Death Eaters as young as 16 in canon back then. It is possible Snape joined quite young too and delved into that world. Either way, it would make sense that a year or so later, his animosity for Lily would wane and he'd begin to feel jealous of her new relationship. For Lily's part, it is possible she immediately embraced her own life, free from the turmoil and trauma that her friendship with Snape had caused her and could then pursue her other interests without that burden. Perhaps she joined a young people's movement associated with fighting against the DEs (especially after Voldemort approached her to join up as indicated by JKR).

Too, per canon, Lily was becoming friendly with James during that time and eventually formed her relationship with him. New love tends to rejuvenate one, especially the young, imo. Lily's new relationship likely wiped Snape and all of his burdensome troubles completely from her mind. Naturally he would call her attention to himself when he called someone a Mudblood or engaged in dark arts pranking or other dark arts interests. But that would only cause her to hold him in further disdain, imo. Apart from that, Lily would pretty much ignore and avoid Snape, purposely, and easily due to her new and healthy relationship with James, imo. Imo, Snape's 7th year hexing of James would become known to her through others and she apparently saw a little of it herself per the canon. So, imo, that would only heighten her feelings of animosity toward Snape and send her protective feelings for her boyfriend surging. Imo neither Lily or James would be vindictive in that situation and use their power as head boy and girl to punish Snape, but rather James would just retailiate and move on. While imo, Snape would have done this with the express purpose of breaking Lily and James up, even if he did it out of pure jealousy, I think Lily would see it as an attempt to cause a rift in her new relationship.

That is why imo, Lily's feelings for Snape would grow increasingly hostile rather than remain caring and/or worrying over his situation. I don't feel that she would continue to do that because she had included that trauma as a part of her young Hogwarts experience for many years and breaking off the relationship was a means of putting an end to that. It would be an extremely liberating and empowering feeling, imo, to have finally been able to let a problem of that nature go and realize that it no longer pertained to her. Snape's negative behavior in 7th year would only reinforce that feeling, imo.

Imo, Lily was sincere when she said they'd chosen distinct paths and at that point she began to regard Snape like Mulciber, Avery and the others joining Voldemort. Lily's character did not strike me as that of a long-suffering, gothic romantic heroine, who looked back on a dysfunctional relationship with continual feelings of remorse that spawned an inability to 'get over it'. Rather, she appeared to be more pragmatic in nature, imo, which was evidenced in her no-nonsense break up of the friendship. Imo, Snape would eventually stop the hexing and move on to his other interests and that would allow for a complete break of association between all of the parties involved. :)

For Lily's part, it is possible she immediately embraced her own life, free from the turmoil and trauma that her friendship with Snape had caused her and could then pursue her other interests without that burden. I don't see that Lily's frienship with Sev caused her "turmoil and trauma" - the breakdown of the friendship might have caused these things but the friendship itself must have brought her a lot of joy.

Imo neither Lily or James would be vindictive in that situation and use their power as head boy and girl to punish Snape, but rather James would just retailiate and move on. While imo, Snape would have done this with the express purpose of breaking Lily and James up, even if he did it out of pure jealousy, I think Lily would see it as an attempt to cause a rift in her new relationship.We have canon that James tried to cause trouble between Lily and Sev - we do not have any canon that Sev tried to cause trouble between James and Lily - that is pure speculation. Yes we are told that Snape never missed an oppportunity to hex James, but after 6 years on the receiving end I am actually glad that sev got his own back and would say James deserved a little of his own medicine.

Lily loved Snape that is canon - we see it in the books and we have Jo's opinion. I think she was very sad that Snape had chosen the path that he did - I think she missed her old friend and wished that things had turned out differently. But I also think that she knew she had done the right thing.

I don't see that Lily's frienship with Sev caused her "turmoil and trauma" - the breakdown of the friendship might have caused these things but the friendship itself must have brought her a lot of joy.

I didn't mean to imply they never had a happy moment during their friendship. :lol:. I was speaking about the burdensome parts that led to the break up because those were the parts that would have caused Lily trauma and turmoil, imo. Imo, that would include: the years she spent making excuses about his behavior to her friends; seeing that behavior herself; hearing him call others Mudblood, noting his increasing interest in the dark arts and using dark curses; watching him hang around with others who were into Voldemort and finally fearing that he too was planning to join up. Imo, Lily, as his friend, would worry over these things, try to figure out how to help and be distraught and unhappy noting his increasing progress down the dark path. That would add trauma and turmoil to her life at Hogwarts that she would not otherwise had to have dealt with, imo.

We have canon that James tried to cause trouble between Lily and Sev - we do not have any canon that Sev tried to cause trouble between James and Lily - that is pure speculation. Yes we are told that Snape never missed an oppportunity to hex James, but after 6 years on the receiving end I am actually glad that sev got his own back and would say James deserved a little of his own medicine.

Imo, we don't have canon that explicitly states either boy was attempting to cause trouble between Lily's relationship with the other. I would appreciate if you could point to the canon you are referring to. However, I was speaking from Lily's perspective and imo, she would see Snape's action in that regard independent of whether or not he was actually trying to cause a rift between her and James or was merely provoked by jealousy/dislike, etc.

Am I the only person who is horribly cynical about their friendship? Sometimes I think it should win an award for how bad it was. I just can't see the goodness and pureness of their friendship. Most of the scenes (if not all of them) we are shown of them together, they are arguing. That sets the mood for me that it was a rocky and confliciting friendship. I feel bad for Lily and Snape that they were once best friends.

Am I the only person who is horribly cynical about their friendship? Sometimes I think it should win an award for how bad it was. I just can't see the goodness and pureness of their friendship. Most of the scenes (if not all of them) we are shown of them together, they are arguing. That sets the mood for me that it was a rocky and confliciting friendship. I feel bad for Lily and Snape that they were once best friends.
Perfectly understandable. I feel the same way too. They were arguing in all of the scenes. I think that it was made clear throughout the memories that the relationship was never going to have a happy ending, with the two of them at opposite ends of the ring on issues like Dark Magic and the muggleborn issue. Arguing in itself doesn't have to be bad, (look at Ron and Hermione) but the topics involved with Snape and Lily were too volatile. I remember that I saw trouble ahead (Okay, I said, "Yes!" and punched the air :lol: ) as soon as Snape hesitated before telling Lily that being a muggleborn didn't make a difference, because SWM came to mind just then.

Am I the only person who is horribly cynical about their friendship? Sometimes I think it should win an award for how bad it was. I just can't see the goodness and pureness of their friendship. Most of the scenes (if not all of them) we are shown of them together, they are arguing. That sets the mood for me that it was a rocky and confliciting friendship. I feel bad for Lily and Snape that they were once best friends.
No you're not the only one who thinks that way (me too! :)) I don't believe that one can just make an assumption that things used to be fine and dandy between them just because Snape feels the need to remind Lily of the label, "best friends". We never see the two of them getting along and we don't see what they have in common either imo. I can't see how a strong friendship could have developed between these two based on what we're shown of their relationship and of their personalities. I believe there was always a rift between them, smaller and not as noticable when they were younger (but still pretty evident in canon imo), but grew bigger and more and more unavoidable as they grew and matured.

I don't believe that one can just make an assumption that things used to be fine and dandy between them just because Snape feels the need to remind Lily of the label, "best friends".

There have been various explanations on why people believe their friendship was fine before the 5th year, not just the "reminding of the label". Well, the word "reminding" in itself suggests that they at least used to be best friends. But posters have made an effort to provide their reasons for believing their friendship to have been good, which is why I can't see your point that "one can just make as assumption... just because Snape feels the need to remind Lily of the label" as valid.

I personally think (and I've said that several times) that the very fact that they remained friends for 5 years while in different Houses and different environment, plus a different status in popularity is a hint enough that something enduring was present between them. I find it unrealistic that they were on such bad terms for five years yet continued to be friends.

We never see the two of them getting along and we don't see what they have in common either imo.

We get no scenes from the first, second, third or fourth year. Actually, we have no image of their friendship - all we have provided in the books is how it ended. The purpose of those scenes between them was to illustrate the end and how it came about. I see no evidence to assume they had the purpose to illustrate how their friendship usually was.

I personally think (and I've said that several times) that the very fact that they remained friends for 5 years while in different Houses and different environment, plus a different status in popularity is a hint enough that something enduring was present between them. I find it unrealistic that they were on such bad terms for five years yet continued to be friends.

We get no scenes from the first, second, third or fourth year. Actually, we have no image of their friendship - all we have provided in the books is how it ended. The purpose of those scenes between them was to illustrate the end and how it came about. I see no evidence to assume they had the purpose to illustrate how their friendship usually was.
I agree! Wre are not shown the scenes of Sev and Lily having a laugh together or studying together because they are not pertinent to the plot. We are only shown those scenes that Harry needed to see to understand Snape's motives. Rather than writing several scenes to show Sev and Lily as best friends we are simply told it as a fact because it is really a side issue.
In a suimilar way we are shown relatively few scene with James behaving like a decent husband and father, but we can assume he was these things because we are told it was so.

I agree! Wre are not shown the scenes of Sev and Lily having a laugh together or studying together because they are not pertinent to the plot. We are only shown those scenes that Harry needed to see to understand Snape's motives. Rather than writing several scenes to show Sev and Lily as best friends we are simply told it as a fact because it is really a side issue. In a suimilar way we are shown relatively few scene with James behaving like a decent husband and father, but we can assume he was these things because we are told it was so.

I respect your view; however, imo, regarding the analogy, as indicated, we are shown scenes of James being a good father - so we don't have to assume; we are not shown scenes of Lily and Snape having a laugh and being best friends - so we have to assume. In addition, the way it was stated in canon "I thought we were best friends," and the response "we are, but..." contributes to the idea that it was not actually the case at that time, imo.

However, I personally feel that when young, both Snape and Lily declared they were best friends in a more sincere fashion (or Snape would not have brought it up). I also feel that if Snape and Lily saw nothing good in one another, they would never have been friends. Thus, I agree that in the past the two likely shared some laughs and spoke of things in a friendly manner. But I also believe the friendship was plagued by problems from the start and grew worse and worse with every day that passed. Imo, after a year or so, it would become apparent to both of them that the friendship was periliously close to a disastrous end at all times based on their divergent belief systems, outlooks, behavior and attitudes - because in addition to the laughs, there would be arguments, imo. But despite that, they did see the 'good' in one another (from their viewpoints) and endured a troublesome friendship in the hope that the 'good' would win out, imo.

There have been various explanations on why people believe their friendship was fine before the 5th year, not just the "reminding of the label". Well, the word "reminding" in itself suggests that they at least used to be best friends. But posters have made an effort to provide their reasons for believing their friendship to have been good, which is why I can't see your point that "one can just make as assumption... just because Snape feels the need to remind Lily of the label" as valid.
It did seem to me that their friendship was rather overrated, though. It was as if they were trying to convince each other that they were best friends. IMO, that was one of the things that kept the friendship going - Lily feeling obligated to remain friends with Snape because she thought he considered her to be his best friend. I think that was why she prentended and made excuses for so long, because she didn't have the heart to break it off with someone who considered her to be his best friend.

I personally think (and I've said that several times) that the very fact that they remained friends for 5 years while in different Houses and different environment, plus a different status in popularity is a hint enough that something enduring was present between them. I find it unrealistic that they were on such bad terms for five years yet continued to be friends.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that they got along together very well for all those years. Particularly because Lily tells Snape that she's been making excuses for Snape for years. That's where I see a problem with that assumption. I don't see Lily as someone who would be okay about continually making excuses for someone. I too thought it unrealistic that they continued to be friends with so many problems between them, but IMO, it was possible because they were able to spend the summers together, when Snape was cut off from his bad influences. He couldn't practise dark magic, and he couldn't have insulted or offended Lily's friends. This was of course, not a real solution, but it worked as a stop-gap measure, IMO.



We get no scenes from the first, second, third or fourth year. Actually, we have no image of their friendship - all we have provided in the books is how it ended. The purpose of those scenes between them was to illustrate the end and how it came about. I see no evidence to assume they had the purpose to illustrate how their friendship usually was.[/QUOTE]

I agree! Wre are not shown the scenes of Sev and Lily having a laugh together or studying together because they are not pertinent to the plot. We are only shown those scenes that Harry needed to see to understand Snape's motives. Rather than writing several scenes to show Sev and Lily as best friends we are simply told it as a fact because it is really a side issue.
Still, there could have been at least glimpses, if not full scenes, of their friendship. It seemed to me that even Snape was not able to find scenes in which they were acting as best friends. This was a Snape who was repentent, and IMO, it's likely that he wanted to convey that Lily was never really his best friend. His best friends were Mulciber and Avery, and Lily was just his love interest.

In a suimilar way we are shown relatively few scene with James behaving like a decent husband and father, but we can assume he was these things because we are told it was so.
That's not similar at all. We have Lily and James's pictures, Lily's letter and actual scenes showing James as a caring husband and a father. I don't see how the two situations can be compared at all. We're not told so, we're shown so. Even Lily's Patronus is a doe, signifying her love for James. Most importantly, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that James behaved in any other way, that he was not a caring husband and father.

In Snape and Lily's case, all the memories we were shown have them arguing over something or the other, with the issues getting progressively worse.

Still, there could have been at least glimpses, if not full scenes, of their friendship. It seemed to me that even Snape was not able to find scenes in which they were acting as best friends. This was a Snape who was repentent, and IMO, it's likely that he wanted to convey that Lily was never really his best friend. His best friends were Mulciber and Avery, and Lily was just his love interest.

I don't think there is nearly enough canon for us to say conclusively that Mulciber and Avery were his 'best friends'.

I am also not at all convinced, personally, that one of the dying Snape's motives would have been to convey that Lily had never really been his best friend. For one thing, Snape has hardly any time left!! - he is dying, literally bleeding to death ... he only has seconds in which to give Harry the memories that impart crucial information and that will make Harry trust him. The memories, IMO, show that Lily cared about Snape but was also deeply troubled by the direction his life was going in.

You also say that Lily was 'just' Snape's love interest. But there is nothing casual about Snape's feelings for Lily! Whether a reader only sees the Snape/Lily relationship in a purely negative light, or whether they interpret it in a more positive way, the overall story shows us that Lily was anything but 'just' Snape's love interest. His feelings for her were very powerful.

:)

There's not enough canon to "assume" Lily was Severus's friend, but it's definite that Avery and Mulciber were Severus's best friends? :huh: I am unable to grasp the logic of this.

Particularly because Lily tells Snape that she's been making excuses for Snape for years. ... I don't see Lily as someone who would be okay about continually making excuses for someone.

But these two sentences are completely contradictory. You can't see her as someone who would be ok about continually making excuses for someone, yet by her own account she did precisely that. So where do you derive this image of Lily from then?

Still, there could have been at least glimpses, if not full scenes, of their friendship. There could have been but there weren't. We are told that they were friends in the books - best friends - unless you think that Lily was lying. We have also been told by Jo that Lily loved Severus as a friend. Of course you do not have to agree with this, but I personally do not see any evidence to contradict the statement - only a lack of evidence to back it up: we are shown nothing of their lives between sorting and fifth year. So in the abscence of contradictory evidence I am prepared to take Lily at her word and believe that they were best friends until SWM.

I really don't understand why people think that Severus and Lily could not have been friends. I know people who are very close and yet are very different - a friend of mine is a devout Catholic and her husband is an atheist - yet they have been happily married for 25 years! I do not think that you have to have "things in common" to be friends - you only have to enjoy each others company.

There could have been but there weren't. We are told that they were friends in the books - best friends - unless you think that Lily was lying. We have also been told by Jo that Lily loved Severus as a friend. Of course you do not have to agree with this, but I personally do not see any evidence to contradict the statement - only a lack of evidence to back it up: we are shown nothing of their lives between sorting and fifth year. So in the abscence of contradictory evidence I am prepared to take Lily at her word and believe that they were best friends until SWM.

:tu: Excellent summary, this is exactly how I view the issue as well. I think that, from the total evidence provided in the books, it's safe to conclude they were indeed friends, or at the very least, they were written with this inention in mind. While many readers may not like the fact of such a friendship, that's not enough to assume it didn't exist. I dislike the fact that Slytherin are consistently represented as less likeable than the other Houses, but I acknowledge the fact that they were, because this is what canon says.

But these two sentences are completely contradictory. You can't see her as someone who would be ok about continually making excuses for someone, yet by her own account she did precisely that. So where do you derive this image of Lily from then?

I understood it to mean that Lily made the excuses, but she didn't enjoy having to continually make them (wasn't okay with it) - that is, she would much rather that Snape change and stop calling others Mudblood, engaging in dark interests, etc., then she would no longer have to make excuses and some of the turmoil she underwent at Hogwarts would have been eased. I agree, I believe the canon supports that Lily felt that way.

I dislike the fact that Slytherin are consistently represented as less likeable than the other Houses, but I acknowledge the fact that they were, because this is what canon says.

But I found it likeable anyway as did some in canon - really the most interesting house, imo...so all was not lost. :rockon:

There's not enough canon to "assume" Lily was Severus's friend, but it's definite that Avery and Mulciber were Severus's best friends? :huh: I am unable to grasp the logic of this.

I agree that Snape and Lily were friends. Imo, by 5th term, Lily no longer considered them best friends based on the way it was stated in canon, however, she did not wish to hurt Snape's feelings by declaring it outright. At that point, imo, Snape was better friends with Mulciber and Avery than Lily for the same reason Lily was better friends with her girl mates - because they both had more in common with those other individuals at that point - although imo, it had been that way for sometime based on the canon.

I believe the canon supports the above; Lily and Snape's conversation in Memory #5 shows that they are very divergent in viewpoint.

For example, Snape felt that black magic pranking was a laugh and saw no difference between that and the light magic pranking of the Maruaders which canon indicates was akin to what Fred and George did. And Lily, who likes neither, found herself in the position of defending the Marauders, which is something she would normally not do, imo, because like Hermione, she didn't like it in general - but it was not harmful and she realized that she had to make this distinction for Snape.

But note what occurs in that part which is even more telling, imo. Lily complains about Avery and Mulciber, Snape's friends, and Snape replies 'what about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to'. These are not Lily's close friends at that time (as shown in SWM), and imo, Snape attempted to use her housemates against her in rebuttal, imo, because could not call her friends on anything. If Lily had been on the ball, she could have stated as much and forced Snape back on topic - (the activities of their actual friends) but she went with it, imo, because she was young and easily drawn off topic; and because the example Snape used (Lupin) brought out her protective instincts for a reason having nothing to do with their conversation. Then she was compelled to explain the distinction between light and dark magic, point out that Snape was behaving in an ungrateful manner toward James who had saved him (it didn't matter why he'd done it - for his friends or whatever - the point was, "how far was Potter willing to go in his detesting of Snape?") and finally she was compelled to deal with Snape's jealousy, imo. However, in the end, she reiterated her point, but Snape was no longer listening to her at all based on canon (DH TPT).

As indicated above, imo, there were several points in this example that showed how different Lily and Snape's thinking was at the time, thus, imo, they were 'best friends' in name only and imo, in reality, barely friends at all. That last is supported in SWM where Snape is sitting on the grass not far from Potter and Lily is watching Potter (she see's him play with the Snitch he just got) and does not bother to go and speak with Snape at all - OOTP SWM. She comes around out of a sense of friendship, however, when things start up - but gets in a conversation with James (note: not Sirius or Snape) making the situation worse from Snape's point of view, imo. And of course, that very night, Lily outlines exactly how she has been feeling about Snape when she cuts the relationship (not best friends, imo - DH TPT).

Imo, Snape does in essence show that he was better friends with Avery and Mulciber at that point by not cutting his relationship with them in the wake of that discussion in order to regain Lily's friendship. So I believe it a valid interpretation that these two memories were revealed to show that Mulciber and Avery had become better friends of Snape's than Lily was. :)

:tu: Excellent summary, this is exactly how I view the issue as well. I think that, from the total evidence provided in the books, it's safe to conclude they were indeed friends, or at the very least, they were written with this inention in mind. While many readers may not like the fact of such a friendship, that's not enough to assume it didn't exist. I dislike the fact that Slytherin are consistently represented as less likeable than the other Houses, but I acknowledge the fact that they were, because this is what canon says.

Perceiving - or even simply wanting - a person to be your best friend does not necessarily make it so. Dumbledore perceived Grindelwald as his best friend and even fell in love with him - that didn't change the fact that Grindelwald was not a true friend. It didn't stop Grindelwald from deceiving him or using him. It didn't stop Dumbledore from suffering because of him. That was the tragedy of Dumbledore's life.

Likewise, Lily's tragedy was perceiving Snape to be her best friend when he was not a true friend. An objective examination of the evidence given in the books shows this friendship to be highly dysfunctional at best. Nearly every encounter shows Snape doing something that hurts Lily and/or makes her angry. Nearly every encounter involves some kind of argument occuring over the fundamental differences between them. Nearly every encounter shows Snape completely disregarding Lily as a person in her own right - belittling her family, her heritage, her beliefs, and even her values - disregarding her thoughts and opinions. Lily eventually had to accept the fact that Snape was not a true friend no matter how much she wanted things to be different.

The evidence given in the text also shows that this was a friendship born out of convenience - or perhaps necessity is a better word there. They were the only magical children in that area - there were no other options. Snape would not condescend to be friends with anyone who was "just a muggle" and feels the need to justify his association with Lily because she has "loads of magic" - that made it okay for him to be friends with her even though she was muggleborn. Snape was the only person who could answer Lily's questions about the magical world - no matter how much he upset her or whatever he did wrong, if she wanted answers to her questions, there was no one else for her to ask. If there had been other magical children living in that area, it is unlikely that they would ever have become friends. Personally, I don't believe they would have if that had been the case. I think Snape would have been more likely to gravitate towards people who had at least some pure blood heritage and Lily would have been more likely to choose a friend who would not belittle and attack her sister. The fact that they did not have any other options is significant, IMO.

From what is shown in the text, Lily felt some misguided sense of duty because Snape was the person who introduced her to the magical world - that drove her to make excuses for his behavior for over five years. They were not shown to connect over anything else in the text - there are no "positive" encounters between them. They had no common interests, no common goals, and they were completely at odds about everything because they were completely different people who had completely different values and beliefs. There was nothing to hold that friendship together - Lily did her best and made excuses for Snape for over five years, but she had no choice but to eventually accept that Snape was not a true friend to her and she was better off ending that association.

There is some irony there in the similarities to the situation with Dumbledore and Grindelwald when you think about it. Just as Grindelwald caused Dumbledore suffering and loss - Snape cause Lily suffering and loss. Both friendships were doomed to fail because of inherent, fundamental differences in values and beliefs. That was a tragedy in their lives - but it also served as a life lesson. It's interesting that Lily was able to overcome this and went on to find true friendship and love while Dumbledore - with all of his intelligence - was never able to completely recover from his experience and spent the rest of his life alone and somewhat isolated from those around him. That says a lot about Lily's strength and character, IMO.

Once again I would like to remind you to make it clear that you are expressing your opinion and not stating a fact.

I agree that Snape and Lily were friends. Imo, by 5th term, Lily no longer considered them best friends based on the way it was stated in canon, however, she did not wish to hurt Snape's feelings by declaring it outright.

I have trouble believing this. They seemed very open with each other. She called him ungrateful, as far as I can remember. I don't think it would've been a problem for her, instead of saying "We are, Sev" (and the emphasis is original, and surely it must mean something) to say "Are we really?" or "The way you've been behaving lately, I'm starting to doubt it". If she says they were, and she even emphasises the fact, then I take her word for it. I have hard time seeing a hidden clue that those words meant the opposite of what they mean.

I have trouble believing this. They seemed very open with each other. She called him ungrateful, as far as I can remember. I don't think it would've been a problem for her, instead of saying "We are, Sev" (and the emphasis is original, and surely it must mean something) to say "Are we really?" or "The way you've been behaving lately, I'm starting to doubt it". If she says they were, and she even emphasises the fact, then I take her word for it. I have hard time seeing a hidden clue that those words meant the opposite of what they mean.

:tu: Even if at this stage Lily is deluding herself and they aren't really best friends it certainly implies that they were at some point. IMO the idea that they were never best friends or even good friends is a non-starter; I certainly get the impression that Jo intended them to be perceived as best friends. I kind of see their relationship as similar to Ron and Hermione's (who also have some big differences in outlook on life). Ron and Hermione are often at odds with each other, but they are still friends and go on to become more to each other. The difference with Snape and Lily is that Lily's feelings never went beyond friendship.
As indicated above, imo, there were several points in this example that showed how different Lily and Snape's thinking was at the time, thus, imo, they were 'best friends' in name only and imo, in reality, barely friends at all. But having different opinions about things - even important things - doesn't mean that they couldn't be friends. I don't expect my friends to have the same opinions as me about things.

I have trouble believing this. They seemed very open with each other. She called him ungrateful, as far as I can remember. I don't think it would've been a problem for her, instead of saying "We are, Sev" (and the emphasis is original, and surely it must mean something) to say "Are we really?" or "The way you've been behaving lately, I'm starting to doubt it". If she says they were, and she even emphasises the fact, then I take her word for it. I have hard time seeing a hidden clue that those words meant the opposite of what they mean.

I respect your view. :) What I am trying to say is a little more subtle. Snape said "..thought we were supposed to be friends, best friends". First, we do not know if Lily's response was to "friends" or "best friends" as she simply said, 'we are, Sev, but....' Second, imo, there would be no reason for Snape to say 'I thought we were friends, best friends' if Lily had not said something to indicate or intimate otherwise (from Snape's view). Snape was not just calling her on her not acting like a best friend, he was calling her on not acting like a friend period, imo, as he said both.

To further explain my interpretation, I will rephrase Snape to indicate what I believe he meant. Snape was saying, 'we are supposed to be friends' and 'friends' do not say (whatever Lily had said) to one another'. Then Snape further said, 'not only that, but we are best friends and best friends REALLY do not say (whatever Lily had said) to one another' (imo).

I believe Snape was being truthful and Lily had said something that placed in question the issue of whether or not she was truly his friend at all. Imo, Lily was being honest too about whatever she had said. Imo, that showed that the friendship was on very rocky ground and Lily did not consider Snape a best friend (by the definition of that term) and not a friend to the degree Snape was indicating; otherwise she would not have made whatever statement she had. But she did still consider Snape a friend to some degree and she did not wish to hurt him by indicating that she did not see him as a friend to the same degree as he seemed to - that is, in the way she had years before when she sincerely could call Snape her best friend and mean it, imo.

So, imo, Lily is not saying the "opposite" of what she really means, they are friends; she is simply not affirming that they are friends to the degree that Snape is indicating by her qualifying statement following her agreement and based on whatever she had said that caused Snape to question their friendship.

At this point, based on canon, Snape is going around calling Muggleborns 'Mudblood'; his interests in the dark arts and dark arts acts has increased; he is friends with others that share those things in common with him; and based on the scene where Lily ended the friendship, it is becoming evident to her that all of them are considering joining up with Voldemort (DH TPT). Imo, those factors would serve to lessen the degree to which Lily considered Snape a "friend" and especially a "best friend" (from her point of view.) However, Lily saw good in Snape, imo, and she did want to help him because she believed that he could change (thus her making excuses for him instead of ending the friendship 'years' before). But, imo, Lily did not wish to be hurtful and tell Snape that she could no longer consider a person doing and saying the things he did as a good or best friend and at that point saw him as a friend to a lesser degree; and in addition to being hurtful, it would have given her less standing with him in the friendship in her view, imo, and thus she would have less of an impact on him in her attempts to help him get off the dark path and see the light.

But having different opinions about things - even important things - doesn't mean that they couldn't be friends. I don't expect my friends to have the same opinions as me about things.

I agree with you. However, I feel that the canon situation between Snape and Lily was distinct. First, I would make clear that, imo, they were friends, just not good or best friends.

Lily called Voldemort "you know who" (DH TPT). We are told in canon that he is called that because the name "Voldemort" instills fear based on the things Voldemort had done or was thought to have done (PS/SS). Lily did not call Mulciber "you know who" and he held blood purist views and used black magic against others based on what Lily said in DH TPT and canon. Imo, Voldemort therefore was already doing or believed to be doing something worse that had already instilled the fear in the wizard populace we saw in PS/SS.

Therefore, imo, Snape did not just hold different opinions than Lily, but held opinions (interests) and behaved in a manner (acts) that indicated to her he was planning to join up with Voldemort (DH TPT) and that was frightening to her. In addition, Snapes interests and acts themselves were not mere differences in opinion about important issues, imo. This particular issue was paramount, imo, as it was Evil v. Good, and advocating Evil values and views and acting out on them in the HP Universe was imo, the lowest behavior to which one could sink - that was in essence, advocating Voldemort - and moved way beyond disagreement over important issues such as simple prejudice (blood purist views). Lily saw hope for Snape, so they were still friends, but not good or best friends for this reason imo (I expanded on this latter point above).

There could have been but there weren't. We are told that they were friends in the books - best friends - unless you think that Lily was lying. We have also been told by Jo that Lily loved Severus as a friend. Of course you do not have to agree with this, but I personally do not see any evidence to contradict the statement - only a lack of evidence to back it up: we are shown nothing of their lives between sorting and fifth year. So in the abscence of contradictory evidence I am prepared to take Lily at her word and believe that they were best friends until SWM.
I think that Lily said that to placate Snape. After all, telling him at that time, that no, they weren't best friends would hardly serve a purpose. She wanted to stop him from doing these things, not let him go. It seemed as if Lily were tired of Snape playing the 'Best Friends' card all the time, whenever she brought up something that was a problem for her.

Jo did say that Lily loved Snape as a friend, and I agree, wholeheartedly. It's the 'Best Friends ' issue that I have doubts about. What's on page is contradictory to that, IMO.

I really don't understand why people think that Severus and Lily could not have been friends. I know people who are very close and yet are very different - a friend of mine is a devout Catholic and her husband is an atheist - yet they have been happily married for 25 years! I do not think that you have to have "things in common" to be friends - you only have to enjoy each others company.
I understand perfectly that having different belief systems does not automatically imply that people can't be friends. However, the belief systems have to be taken into account too. It's not like atheists want all catholics dead or vice versa.

It's not just about having things in common either. Snape and Lily did have things in common, like living in the same area, being the only magical children in that area, an interest in Potions etc. However, they were not able to enjoy the time spent together fully IMO, because they tended to argue about things too much. I don't think that Lily would have enjoyed giving scriptures to Snape all the time, and I can't see Snape enjoying it either. However, that was what their time together seemed to have become, IMO. I think that they did enjoyed their time together, before their different politics became a problem, years before SWM.

There's not enough canon to "assume" Lily was Severus's friend, but it's definite that Avery and Mulciber were Severus's best friends? :huh: I am unable to grasp the logic of this.
I never said Lily wasn't Snape's friend - just that I doubted that they really were best friends. It did seem to me that Snape was better friends with Avery and Mulciber than with Lily. They were the ones he listened to, after all.

But these two sentences are completely contradictory. You can't see her as someone who would be ok about continually making excuses for someone, yet by her own account she did precisely that. So where do you derive this image of Lily from then?
What I meant was that Lily did things that she wasn't really okay with. She does say that she made excuses, yes, but she does not sound happy about it. It was IMO, something she wasn't proud of. Being put in a position like that for years tends to build up resentment in anyone.

I don't think there is nearly enough canon for us to say conclusively that Mulciber and Avery were his 'best friends'.
Of course there isn't anything 100% conclusive. :) It just seemed that way to me, from Snape's words and actions.

I am also not at all convinced, personally, that one of the dying Snape's motives would have been to convey that Lily had never really been his best friend.
I think that he wanted Harry to know about the mistakes he'd made. I think that Snape repented not being a better friend to Lily, and that the memories were essentially a confession of sorts. I think that he wanted Harry to know that he couldn't be as good a friend to Lily as she was to him.

You also say that Lily was 'just' Snape's love interest. But there is nothing casual about Snape's feelings for Lily! Whether a reader only sees the Snape/Lily relationship in a purely negative light, or whether they interpret it in a more positive way, the overall story shows us that Lily was anything but 'just' Snape's love interest. His feelings for her were very powerful.
I meant that as in, Snape never really saw Lily as a friend, only as his love interest. Or rather, he didn't value her as a friend as much as he valued her as a love interest. I agree that the feelings he had for Lily were powerful, I just disagree about the nature of the feelings.

I understood it to mean that Lily made the excuses, but she didn't enjoy having to continually make them (wasn't okay with it) - that is, she would much rather that Snape change and stop calling others Mudblood, engaging in dark interests, etc., then she would no longer have to make excuses and some of the turmoil she underwent at Hogwarts would have been eased. I agree, I believe the canon supports that Lily felt that way.
That's exactly what I meant, Thank You. :tu:
For example, Snape felt that black magic pranking was a laugh and saw no difference between that and the light magic pranking of the Maruaders which canon indicates was akin to what Fred and George did. And Lily, who likes neither, found herself in the position of defending the Marauders, which is something she would normally not do, imo, because like Hermione, she didn't like it in general - but it was not harmful and she realized that she had to make this distinction for Snape.
That's how I see it too. I don't think that she approved of what James and his friends were doing, but IMO, she did consider it the lesser of the evils, because at least, their pranks were comparatively benign. She just disliked the fact that James was doing them for no reason other than that he could.

But note what occurs in that part which is even more telling, imo. Lily complains about Avery and Mulciber, Snape's friends, and Snape replies 'what about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to'. These are not Lily's close friends at that time (as shown in SWM), and imo, Snape attempted to use her housemates against her in rebuttal, imo, because could not call her friends on anything. If Lily had been on the ball, she could have stated as much and forced Snape back on topic - (the activities of their actual friends) but she went with it, imo, because she was young and easily drawn off topic; and because the example Snape used (Lupin) brought out her protective instincts for a reason having nothing to do with their conversation. Then she was compelled to explain the distinction between light and dark magic, point out that Snape was behaving in an ungrateful manner toward James who had saved him (it didn't matter why he'd done it - for his friends or whatever - the point was, "how far was Potter willing to go in his detesting of Snape?") and finally she was compelled to deal with Snape's jealousy, imo. However, in the end, she reiterated her point, but Snape was no longer listening to her at all based on canon (DH TPT).
I agree completely. In addition, I also got the feeling that Lily was feeling rather exasperated when Snape brought up James, possibly because Snape did it all the time. I also agree about her being drawn off-topic. After all, it happens to us all the time, and the mods have to pull us back. :lol:

That last is supported in SWM where Snape is sitting on the grass not far from Potter and Lily is watching Potter (she see's him play with the Snitch he just got) and does not bother to go and speak with Snape at all - OOTP SWM. She comes around out of a sense of friendship, however, when things start up - but gets in a conversation with James (note: not Sirius or Snape) making the situation worse from Snape's point of view, imo. And of course, that very night, Lily outlines exactly how she has been feeling about Snape when she cuts the relationship (not best friends, imo - DH TPT).
That's an interesting point, and it certainly does explain why Lily doesn't talk to Snape at all.

Perceiving - or even simply wanting - a person to be your best friend does not necessarily make it so. Dumbledore perceived Grindelwald as his best friend and even fell in love with him - that didn't change the fact that Grindelwald was not a true friend. It didn't stop Grindelwald from deceiving him or using him. It didn't stop Dumbledore from suffering because of him. That was the tragedy of Dumbledore's life.

Likewise, Lily's tragedy was perceiving Snape to be her best friend when he was not a true friend. An objective examination of the evidence given in the books shows this friendship to be highly dysfunctional at best. Nearly every encounter shows Snape doing something that hurts Lily and/or makes her angry. Nearly every encounter involves some kind of argument occuring over the fundamental differences between them. Nearly every encounter shows Snape completely disregarding Lily as a person in her own right - belittling her family, her heritage, her beliefs, and even her values - disregarding her thoughts and opinions. Lily eventually had to accept the fact that Snape was not a true friend no matter how much she wanted things to be different.

The evidence given in the text also shows that this was a friendship born out of convenience - or perhaps necessity is a better word there. They were the only magical children in that area - there were no other options. Snape would not condescend to be friends with anyone who was "just a muggle" and feels the need to justify his association with Lily because she has "loads of magic" - that made it okay for him to be friends with her even though she was muggleborn. Snape was the only person who could answer Lily's questions about the magical world - no matter how much he upset her or whatever he did wrong, if she wanted answers to her questions, there was no one else for her to ask. If there had been other magical children living in that area, it is unlikely that they would ever have become friends. Personally, I don't believe they would have if that had been the case. I think Snape would have been more likely to gravitate towards people who had at least some pure blood heritage and Lily would have been more likely to choose a friend who would not belittle and attack her sister. The fact that they did not have any other options is significant, IMO.

From what is shown in the text, Lily felt some misguided sense of duty because Snape was the person who introduced her to the magical world - that drove her to make excuses for his behavior for over five years. They were not shown to connect over anything else in the text - there are no "positive" encounters between them. They had no common interests, no common goals, and they were completely at odds about everything because they were completely different people who had completely different values and beliefs. There was nothing to hold that friendship together - Lily did her best and made excuses for Snape for over five years, but she had no choice but to eventually accept that Snape was not a true friend to her and she was better off ending that association.

There is some irony there in the similarities to the situation with Dumbledore and Grindelwald when you think about it. Just as Grindelwald caused Dumbledore suffering and loss - Snape cause Lily suffering and loss. Both friendships were doomed to fail because of inherent, fundamental differences in values and beliefs. That was a tragedy in their lives - but it also served as a life lesson. It's interesting that Lily was able to overcome this and went on to find true friendship and love while Dumbledore - with all of his intelligence - was never able to completely recover from his experience and spent the rest of his life alone and somewhat isolated from those around him. That says a lot about Lily's strength and character, IMO.
Wonderful Post, Meesha! :clap: That's a very accurate account of their entire relationship, IMO, and covers all the bases neatly. The comparison to Dumbledore is very interesting. I also agree about Lily sticling by Snape out of a sense of duty, and their friendship being based on necessity and Lily's curiosity about the magical world. No other reasons are shown in the text, after all. :tu:

Even if at this stage Lily is deluding herself and they aren't really best friends it certainly implies that they were at some point. IMO the idea that they were never best friends or even good friends is a non-starter; I certainly get the impression that Jo intended them to be perceived as best friends. I kind of see their relationship as similar to Ron and Hermione's (who also have some big differences in outlook on life). Ron and Hermione are often at odds with each other, but they are still friends and go on to become more to each other. The difference with Snape and Lily is that Lily's feelings never went beyond friendship.
Okay, maybe they were best friends, when they were starting school and for sometime afterwards. However, they only had each other as friends at the time, and it's sort of inevitable that the only friend becomes the best friend. I think that the scene with Lucius welcoming Snape into Slytherin was symbolic of the start of the rift in their friendship. I don't think that it would have taken long after that for Lily to realise that being muggleborn did make a difference to some people, especially with the war on and Voldemort taking over.

Ron and Hermione's differences are nothing like Snape and Lily's IMO. The topic that they seem to have the most arguments about seems to be studies. In Snape and Lily's case, they were both studious. Ron and Hermione's arguments were never about good or evil, but about more trivial issues.

But having different opinions about things - even important things - doesn't mean that they couldn't be friends. I don't expect my friends to have the same opinions as me about things.
IMO, that would depend on the nature of the things they disagreed on. In Snape and Lily's case, it was Good vs. Evil. It would also depend on how important these things were to the people involved. If, for instance, Lily had looser morals and had a lot less self-respect, she'd have been content to let Snape do whatever he wanted as long as it didn't affect her personally. She might even have been able to simply forgive Snape for calling her a mudblood, because he never meant to call her that.

Wonderful Post, Meesha! :clap: That's a very accurate account of their entire relationship, IMO, and covers all the bases neatly. The comparison to Dumbledore is very interesting. I also agree about Lily sticling by Snape out of a sense of duty, and their friendship being based on necessity and Lily's curiosity about the magical world. No other reasons are shown in the text, after all. :tu:

Thanks! :D

I think it is significant that there are no positive interactions shown between them. Nearly every interaction demonstrates Snape doing something that hurts Lily and/or makes her angry or the two of them arguing about Snape's bad behavior and actions - or the bad behavior and actions of his other friends. The text shows that to have been a friendship on very shaky ground from its very beginnings.

Ron and Hermione's differences are nothing like Snape and Lily's IMO. The topic that they seem to have the most arguments about seems to be studies. In Snape and Lily's case, they were both studious. Ron and Hermione's arguments were never about good or evil, but about more trivial issues.

Completely agree. Ron and Hermione had trivial differences - their beliefs and values were basically the same. Ron would never have referred to anyone in Hermione's family as "just a muggle", he actually listened to Hermione - even when he didn't agree with her, and he would never have called her a mudblood no matter what the circumstances. Ron and Hermione had different views about studying, how to handle the house-elf situation, and - ironically - Snape's loyalties. But they also had a lot in common and valued each others' opinions - even when they did not agree.

Therefore, imo, Snape did not just hold different opinions than Lily, but held opinions (interests) and behaved in a manner (acts) that indicated to her he was planning to join up with Voldemort (DH TPT) and that was frightening to her. In addition, Snapes interests and acts themselves were not mere differences in opinion about important issues, imo. This particular issue was paramount, imo, as it was Evil v. Good, and advocating Evil values and views and acting out on them in the HP Universe was imo, the lowest behavior to which one could sink - that was in essence, advocating Voldemort - and moved way beyond disagreement over important issues such as simple prejudice (blood purist views). Lily saw hope for Snape, so they were still friends, but not good or best friends for this reason imo (I expanded on this latter point above).But Snape did not come to Hogwarts and then immediately decide to become a Death Eater! Years go by and Snape changes from being Lily's best friend to being a wannabe Death Eater which culminates in Snape's worst memory. IMO there is nothing that indicates that they were not best friends at least for the first three or so years at Hogwarts.

I also think that it is important to emphasise that Snape chose to be a Death Eater. In other words he could have chosen differently - he was not always pre-destined to end up as a Death Eater. As such I see no reason why he could not have been best friends with Lily in the early years at Hogwarts. To me this is what makes his story so tragic - the fact that it could have all been very different. If he had never been best friends with Lily then it's not as if he's lost anything by choosing to go down the Dark Arts path. As I see it, he lost his best friend - and he later realises this and is left with huge regrets and the pivotal moment is etched on his mind as his worst memory.

Ron and Hermione's differences are nothing like Snape and Lily's IMO. The topic that they seem to have the most arguments about seems to be studies. In Snape and Lily's case, they were both studious. Ron and Hermione's arguments were never about good or evil, but about more trivial issues.
Well I agree that they did not argue about Dark Arts and Ron didn't call people "Mudblood", however they do have very different attitudes towards life and work, but what I was thinking of particularly was their difference over house-elves - something that Hermione feels strongly about but Ron is derisive about, and ultimately it was Ron coming round to Hermione's way of thinking that triggered their first kiss. I don't think that was coincidence, but made an important point. With Lily and Snape Snape did not "come round" - not until it was far too late - hence his regrets.

I personally think (and I've said that several times) that the very fact that they remained friends for 5 years while in different Houses and different environment, plus a different status in popularity is a hint enough that something enduring was present between them. I find it unrealistic that they were on such bad terms for five years yet continued to be friends.

But is friendship measured by that? As meesha pointed out, Dumbledore and Grindelwald were supposedly best friends, yet Grindelwald betrayed Dumbledore. James was best friends with Wormtail for ten years, yet Wormtail still betrayed him. Usually I can accept things in the Harry Potter series even if it isn't shown (e.g. James' newfound maturity in his seventh year), but with Snape and Lily it seems like the canon that we have contradicts what they say. It never looked like a strong friendship to me, but it's understandable if others feel differently.

But is friendship measured by that? As meesha pointed out, Dumbledore and Grindelwald were supposedly best friends, yet Grindelwald betrayed Dumbledore. James was best friends with Wormtail for ten years, yet Wormtail still betrayed him. Usually I can accept things in the Harry Potter series even if it isn't shown (e.g. James' newfound maturity in his seventh year), but with Snape and Lily it seems like the canon that we have contradicts what they say. It never looked like a strong friendship to me, but it's understandable if others feel differently.

I didn't mean that the length was indicative of how good a friend Severus was, just that there obviously was a friendship during those five years - in response to someone (soryy, forgot who) doubting that there ever was one. In my opinion, it's made quite clear in the books that they were friends. That was what the big revelation about Severus was, after all, and the very imprtant thing about Lily Jo had primised pre-DH. I can't see how anyone can point there and insist that there was no friendship at all all those years. And yes, James and Peter were friends as well before Peter betrayed him - it doesn't mean Peter was a good friend, but the friendship was there, it happened, before the betrayal took place. What he ultimately decided to do doesn't cancel those ten years out - it may raise questions about the quality of their friendship, but can't anull the fact of it.

And even quality-wise, I think there's a very significant difference between James and Peter on one hand and Lily and Severus on the other - remorse. Severus tries to save Lily, Peter sits through James's murder. Years later we find Severus having devoted his whole life to making it up to [dead] Lily, and Peter - serving James's murderer.

I think they were friends. But we also have to consider that there was strain in the friendship. Every scene we saw between them had an element of contention or strain. That was significant. People can be friends with someone despite that kind of stress, but eventually the friendship could fray along the edges from the strain, depending on how far apart their personalities really are, because they can decide to just accept or deal with the issues. However, they also decide at some point that enough was enough. I think that what's we saw with Snape and Lily and Lily's reaction to the mudblood comment. That doesn't mean they were never friends, but it did mean that the prognosis for the friendship wasn't never that good.

I think that can be especially true for people who become friends because of proximity in the neighborhood. What will have drawn them together would not have been shared preferences or aspirations, but rather geographic convenience. Young children don't have the luxury of mobility to meet others outside their neighborhoods.

I actually had a friend like that. We lived near each other, but were never personally compatible and we always had our issues between us. We lost track of each other when we went to college, even though we still lived very close to each other. There was no point in trying to support an already thin friendship, despite the fact that we had been close when we were young. She was rather prissy and snobbish and I didn't have all that much in common with her.

But Snape did not come to Hogwarts and then immediately decide to become a Death Eater! Years go by and Snape changes from being Lily's best friend to being a wannabe Death Eater which culminates in Snape's worst memory. IMO there is nothing that indicates that they were not best friends at least for the first three or so years at Hogwarts.
Actually, Snape could have decided that even before Hogwarts. Voldemort was recruiting even back then, and Snape would have at least known and heard about him, being from a semi-wizarding family. Snape was already aiming to be a Death Eater by his fifth year. Lucius Malfoy was a prefect in Snape's first year. He too was aiming to be a DE, and it's very possible that Snape got hooked to the idea as early as that. With the war in full swing in the Wizarding world, it's not surprising that even students have to pick sides very early on. Harry has to pick a side on the train ride itself.

I also think that it is important to emphasise that Snape chose to be a Death Eater. In other words he could have chosen differently - he was not always pre-destined to end up as a Death Eater. As such I see no reason why he could not have been best friends with Lily in the early years at Hogwarts.
I think that it would depend on when Snape chose to be a DE. As I said above, I believe that he chose that path very early on, before Hogwarts, or shortly after getting there. I'm inclined to think that it was before Hogwarts, because he comes to Hogwarts armed with so many curses. IMO, he'd already decided his path, even then.

Well I agree that they did not argue about Dark Arts and Ron didn't call people "Mudblood", however they do have very different attitudes towards life and work, but what I was thinking of particularly was their difference over house-elves - something that Hermione feels strongly about but Ron is derisive about, and ultimately it was Ron coming round to Hermione's way of thinking that triggered their first kiss. I don't think that was coincidence, but made an important point. With Lily and Snape Snape did not "come round" - not until it was far too late - hence his regrets.
That makes it sound as if the entire Ron-Hermione relationship was only hindered by the house-elf issue. Ron and Hermione had chemistry even before house-elves ever entered the picture, and they'd have gotten together in HBP if it hadn't been for their argument over Lavender.

It was not as if Ron treated all house-elves like dirt, while Hermione argued for them. Ron simply thought that it would be better to let the elves do what made them happy. Ron does sympathise with Winky, compliments the elves who bring him food, making them happy, and gives Dobby an improptu Christmas present. He actually likes elves, except for Kreacher when he's insulting everyone. Thus, Ron doesn't have a change of mind about elves. He just remembers Dobby, and doesn't want any more innocent elves dead. I'd say that Ron would have done the exact same thing, even if Hermione had never thought up SPEW. That's the kind of caring person he's always been, and that is one of the things Hermione found appealing about him.

The same applies for their studies too. It wasn't that Ron never opened a book in his life, and wanted to burn any book he came across, he just didn't think that everything revolved around studies.

That's why I don't think that it's comparable to Snape-Lily, because Ron and Hermione did agree on most things, with the differences being in their level of involvement, or their methods.

I think that can be especially true for people who become friends because of proximity in the neighborhood. What will have drawn them together would not have been shared preferences or aspirations, but rather geographic convenience. Young children don't have the luxury of mobility to meet others outside their neighborhoods.
Absolutely. Their friendship was based entirely on their being the only wizards in the neighbourhood. Lily remained friends with Snape simply because he was able to answer her questions. Lily was grateful to him for that, and IMO, that was why she stuck by him for so long, even when she had to make excuses to her other friends for years. I mean, what else was appealing about Snape? It wasn't like they hit it off, or had some sort of deep connection that overcame all their differences. Nothing like that is suggested on-page, IMO.

Actually, Snape could have decided that even before Hogwarts. Voldemort was recruiting even back then, and Snape would have at least known and heard about him, being from a semi-wizarding family. Snape was already aiming to be a Death Eater by his fifth year. Lucius Malfoy was a prefect in Snape's first year. He too was aiming to be a DE, and it's very possible that Snape got hooked to the idea as early as that. With the war in full swing in the Wizarding world, it's not surprising that even students have to pick sides very early on. Harry has to pick a side on the train ride itself.


I think that it would depend on when Snape chose to be a DE. As I said above, I believe that he chose that path very early on, before Hogwarts, or shortly after getting there. I'm inclined to think that it was before Hogwarts, because he comes to Hogwarts armed with so many curses. IMO, he'd already decided his path, even then.

I agree. Dumbledore gives us the time frame in PS/SS when he talks to McGonagall in the first chapter - Voldemort had been in power for 11 years at that point. That puts him coming into power around 1970. Snape and Lily went to Hogwarts in 1971 so Voldemort already had a foothold - and a strong one from the way Dumbledore talks about it.

We are also shown that Snape shares the beliefs Voldemort promoted to the Death Eaters even before he goes to Hogwarts. The way he treats Petunia and sneering at her for being "just a muggle" is telling - he sees muggles as inferior. He sees himself as being superior because he is a wizard with at least some pure-blood - which is also why he came up with a nickname focusing on the fact that half of his blood is pure - as Hermione points out in HBP. His hesitation in answering Lily's question about whether being muggleborn mattered is very revealing because it shows that he is lying about what he believes - saying what he believes she wants to hear. If he truly believed that it made no difference, then there would have been no need for hesitation, IMO.

Snape appears to have been grooming himself to become a Death Eater for a long time. He arrives at Hogwarts already knowing more curses than half the seventh years and he continues to study and practice the Dark Arts - even inventing his own Dark Arts spells. Those spells were not invented overnight - that took a lot of time, IMO. I'd say it is most likely that Snape was doing these things from the minute he arrived at Hogwarts - practicing the Dark Arts and perfecting his spells so he could impress Voldemort when he was finally old enough to join.

That makes it sound as if the entire Ron-Hermione relationship was only hindered by the house-elf issue. Ron and Hermione had chemistry even before house-elves ever entered the picture, and they'd have gotten together in HBP if it hadn't been for their argument over Lavender.

It was not as if Ron treated all house-elves like dirt, while Hermione argued for them. Ron simply thought that it would be better to let the elves do what made them happy. Ron does sympathise with Winky, compliments the elves who bring him food, making them happy, and gives Dobby an improptu Christmas present. He actually likes elves, except for Kreacher when he's insulting everyone. Thus, Ron doesn't have a change of mind about elves. He just remembers Dobby, and doesn't want any more innocent elves dead. I'd say that Ron would have done the exact same thing, even if Hermione had never thought up SPEW. That's the kind of caring person he's always been, and that is one of the things Hermione found appealing about him.

The same applies for their studies too. It wasn't that Ron never opened a book in his life, and wanted to burn any book he came across, he just didn't think that everything revolved around studies.

That's why I don't think that it's comparable to Snape-Lily, because Ron and Hermione did agree on most things, with the differences being in their level of involvement, or their methods.

Completely agree. It is significant that Ron was never against the idea of house-elves being free if they wanted it. He was perfectly fine with Dobby being free and, as you pointed out, he promised Dobby a sweater and tossed in a pair of socks to go with it because he was amused that Dobby thought socks should be mismatched. He was right there with Harry and Hermione in Hogsmeade having a great time picking out lurid socks to give to Dobby as a present from Harry. He was sympathetic to Winky and kind to all the house-elves in general. Ron's focus was on what the house-elves wanted - he believed that their wishes should be taken into consideration. It was Hermione's methods that he argued against - the fact that she was trying to impose what she wanted on them without taking into consideration what they wanted for themselves. And Hermione eventually realized that Ron was right - by DH she is no longer trying to force freedom on house-elves or trick them into it. She is paying attention to what they want and how they want to be treated. Ron's statement about the house-elves in DH was not a change for him because he had always behaved that way - that was a moment of realization for Hermione that he did care.

Ron and Hermione's differences were trivial things for the most part because they were primarily focused towards their methods in dealing with certain issues. They had the same values and beliefs overall.

Absolutely. Their friendship was based entirely on their being the only wizards in the neighbourhood. Lily remained friends with Snape simply because he was able to answer her questions. Lily was grateful to him for that, and IMO, that was why she stuck by him for so long, even when she had to make excuses to her other friends for years. I mean, what else was appealing about Snape? It wasn't like they hit it off, or had some sort of deep connection that overcame all their differences. Nothing like that is suggested on-page, IMO.

Exactly. :agree: It is significant that there is nothing in the text that shows them connecting on any other level than the fact that they were both magical children living in an area where no other magical children lived. They had completely different values, completely different beliefs, and completely different interests. They were at odds with each other from the moment they met and Lily got angry with Snape for insulting Petunia. That was a friendship that developed out of convenience.

That's not to say that Lily did not care about Snape at all. It's very clear in the text that she does care because she puts a great deal of effort into trying to steer Snape away from such a dark path. It was also clear that this was an ongoing argument between them - it appears that they have been having this argument for years. But Lily eventually had to accept the fact that Snape was set on that path and there was nothing she could do about it. The minute he turned on her and called her a mudblood, she could no longer deny it or make excuses for him.

We are also shown that Snape shares the beliefs Voldemort promoted to the Death Eaters even before he goes to Hogwarts. The way he treats Petunia and sneering at her for being "just a muggle" is telling - he sees muggles as inferior.

It's also worth pointing out that Petunia demonstrates prejudice towards Snape: as a middle-class child, she sneers at the address where Snape lives (he obviously lives on the 'wrong' side of town). Evidently Petunia never lost her middle-class snobbery. ;)

I am not saying that justifies Snape's prejudice towards her -- just saying that the antipathy between Snape and Petunia is pretty much equal in that first encounter.

Snape appears to have been grooming himself to become a Death Eater for a long time. He arrives at Hogwarts already knowing more curses than half the seventh years and he continues to study and practice the Dark Arts - even inventing his own Dark Arts spells. Those spells were not invented overnight - that took a lot of time, IMO. I'd say it is most likely that Snape was doing these things from the minute he arrived at Hogwarts - practicing the Dark Arts and perfecting his spells so he could impress Voldemort when he was finally old enough to join.

Surely you are not suggesting that an eleven year old child was already hoping to become a Death Eater, Meesha???? :huh:

Not even Draco Malfoy shows such dark impulses at the age of eleven, and Draco is from one of the senior aristocratic 'inner circle' families who support Voldemort.

Canon doesn't show us where young Severus got either his anti-Muggle prejudice or his expertise at Dark Arts from. He might have inherited both from his mother Eileen, who, as canon does show, had a very unhappy (possibly abusive) relationship with her Muggle husband: canon certainly gives us evidence for that.

We know that Snape already had an affinity for the Dark Arts, that he was friends with aspiring DEs in his fifth year, that he had imbibed the intolerance against Muggleborns and that -- as Lily directly challenges him -- he seemed to have aspirations to join the DE cult. I personally do not think we can infer from any of that that 11 year old Severus was already hoping to become a DE when he first entered Hogwarts: I do think that his upbringing and beliefs made him a natural target for the recruitment tactics of the likes of Lucius Malfoy.

I see no reason to attribute the worst sort of motives to the child Snape, when the canon does not actually give us any solid proof.

I think they were friends. But we also have to consider that there was strain in the friendship. Every scene we saw between them had an element of contention or strain. That was significant. People can be friends with someone despite that kind of stress, but eventually the friendship could fray along the edges from the strain, depending on how far apart their personalities really are, because they can decide to just accept or deal with the issues. However, they also decide at some point that enough was enough. I think that what's we saw with Snape and Lily and Lily's reaction to the mudblood comment. That doesn't mean they were never friends, but it did mean that the prognosis for the friendship wasn't never that good.

This is pretty much how I see it too, CBW.

I think that Lily genuinely cared for Severus and that the strains in their friendship might have been overcome if Severus himself had been able to overcome his old childhood beliefs and had resisted the temptation to get sucked into the Death Eater movement, when he was a teenager.

Snape appears to have been grooming himself to become a Death Eater for a long time. He arrives at Hogwarts already knowing more curses than half the seventh years and he continues to study and practice the Dark Arts - even inventing his own Dark Arts spells. Those spells were not invented overnight - that took a lot of time, IMO. I'd say it is most likely that Snape was doing these things from the minute he arrived at Hogwarts - practicing the Dark Arts and perfecting his spells so he could impress Voldemort when he was finally old enough to join.
But this assumes that Snape knew what Death Eaters were and what they were about before he got to Hogwarts which I finds unlikely. Even if he had that knowledge it is a huge leap to assume that because he had an interest in the Dark Arts that he wanted to be a Death Eater at age 11! Did James want to join the Order of the Phoenix at that age? I am sorry but I just can't buy the idea that Snape has already "decided" - to me this takes to much away from Snape's story. As I said - Snape had a choice - far more than Draco had - and he chose the Dark Side. If Snape had already decided that he wanted to be a Death Eater around the time he met Lily then it just doesn't make any sense at all as to why they were friends in the first place. The fact that they were friends and that this friendship faltered is indicative of Snape's progression down the Dark path - a path down which Lily would not follow.

Ok guys..can we have a cake break, please? I reckon we're having hard work debating, so I'll make it a cherry cake and we can all get back to posting with a sugar haze, and feeling more benevolent about our threadmates :)
http://www.torta.hu/images/meggyes.jpg

It's also worth pointing out that Petunia demonstrates prejudice towards Snape: as a middle-class child, she sneers at the address where Snape lives (he obviously lives on the 'wrong' side of town). Evidently Petunia never lost her middle-class snobbery. ;)
I'm not saying that Petunia was right to be snooty about it, but it's clear that she was scared by the weirdly dressed kid who had just jumped out at them.
“It’s obvious, isn’t it?” Snape could no longer contain himself, but had jumped out from behind the bushes. Petunia shrieked and ran backward toward the swings, but Lily, though clearly startled, remained where she was.
Snape seemed to regret his appearance. A dull flush of color mounted the sallow cheeks as he looked at Lily.
“What’s obvious?” asked Lily.
Snape had an air of nervous excitement. With a glance at the distant Petunia, now hovering beside the swings, he lowered his voice and said, “I know what you are.”Lily is clearly the braver of the two. IMO, Petunia was rather ashamed that she had shrieked and ran away while her younger sister had stood her ground. Also, Snape called her sister a witch, and claimed to be one himself.

I don't think that the image that pops up in a kid's head when he hears 'witch' or 'wizard' would be anything like what Snape looked like at that point. He was wearing an oversize coat that looked ludicruous. Clearly, he did not present an impressive figure. Also, the first instinct for any kid, when he/she hears a dubious claim being made by another, would be to say 'Liar!' and refute it, with proof. That is exactly what Petunia does, IMO. She basically implies that he couldn't possibly be a wizard, because she knows him, and knows where he lives. What she's trying to say is, IMO, "No wizard would live in a place like that, Don't believe him".“You are,” said Snape to Lily. “You are a witch. I’ve been watching you for a while. But there’s nothing wrong with that. My mum’s one, and I’m a wizard.”
Petunia’s laugh was like cold water.
“Wizard!” she shrieked, her courage returned now that she had recovered from the shock of his unexpected appearance. “I know who you are. You’re that Snape boy! They live down Spinner’s End by the river,” she told Lily, and it was evident from her tone that she considered the address a poor recommendation.
I'd even say that she was trying to protect her sister here. After all, they're both still a bit wary of him, as demonstrated by their hanging on to the poles.The sisters considered him, united in disapproval, both holding on to one of the swing poles, as though it was the safe place in tag.Clearly, it was not just Petunia being spiteful, but being careful. IMO, they had been warned, possibly by their parents, about the people who lived down there. I don't think that Lily would have returned to talk with Snape later, if she hadn't been curious about what he said about her being a witch.

I am not saying that justifies Snape's prejudice towards her -- just saying that the antipathy between Snape and Petunia is pretty much equal in that first encounter.
I can't really say that it's equal. Petunia is simply refuting his unconvincing claim of being a wizard. Snape on the other hand, is deliberately spiteful to her because she's a muggle.“Wouldn’t spy on you, anyway,” he added spitefully, “you’re a Muggle.”
Though Petunia evidently did not understand the word, she could hardly mistake the tone.

Surely you are not suggesting that an eleven year old child was already hoping to become a Death Eater, Meesha???? :huh:

Not even Draco Malfoy shows such dark impulses at the age of eleven, and Draco is from one of the senior aristocratic 'inner circle' families who support Voldemort.
Whats so outlandish about that? Snape's situation is different from Draco's. In Draco's time, there is no war, and Voldemort's believed to be gone. Being a DE is not an option at all.

In Snape's time, Voldemort's already taking over, and people are already taking sides. Snape at nine clearly thinks that Muggles are inferior, and that being muggleborn makes a difference. There were people who believed that Voldemort had the right idea, but disapproved of his methods, but Snape, who comes to Hogwarts armed with curses, and spends his school years building up an arsenal of spells, does not fall into that category, IMO.

But this assumes that Snape knew what Death Eaters were and what they were about before he got to Hogwarts which I finds unlikely. Even if he had that knowledge it is a huge leap to assume that because he had an interest in the Dark Arts that he wanted to be a Death Eater at age 11! Did James want to join the Order of the Phoenix at that age?
First of all, Meesha said that, not me. :lol:

However, I do agree with her, so I'll reply. Snape was ambitious, which was why he got into Slytherin. He was also interested in the Dark Arts. I think that being a DE was a natural choice for people like Snape, who wanted to be powerful, were interested in the Dark Arts, believed in the pureblood agenda, and let their ambition rule them. So, yes, I do think that Snape aspiring to be a powerful DE, even at age 11, is possible.

I don't think that Snape realy understood what it meant to be a DE at that age. He was attracted to the power that they represented, IMO. I don't think he wanted to kill all muggles at that age, but he did think that they were insignifcant and below him, which kind of took out the stigma associated with being a DE.

I am sorry but I just can't buy the idea that Snape has already "decided" - to me this takes to much away from Snape's story. As I said - Snape had a choice - far more than Draco had - and he chose the Dark Side. If Snape had already decided that he wanted to be a Death Eater around the time he met Lily then it just doesn't make any sense at all as to why they were friends in the first place. The fact that they were friends and that this friendship faltered is indicative of Snape's progression down the Dark path - a path down which Lily would not follow.
I don't see how that would take way from the story. Canon shows that they remained friends even when Snape was calling all Lily's muggleborn friends mudbloods. Snape never understood Lily's aversion because he couldn't see what was wrong about it. That tells me that he had never thought otherwise, that he never realized that there was another path. That was Snape's fatal flaw, that he did not see the right path at all.

Whats so outlandish about that? Snape's situation is different from Draco's. In Draco's time, there is no war, and Voldemort's believed to be gone. Being a DE is not an option at all.

Draco's father is a senior Death Eater and secretly never renounced those beliefs; surely Lucius is aware of the secret plans among the DEs to resurrect Voldemort, he is one of the inner circle. No doubt he shielded his son from the full horrors of what the DEs got up to: Draco is only eleven. He's not a nice child but neither is he a potential murderer or even necessarily a DE in the making: he's only a child.

Why assume that eleven year old Snape is worse than Draco was at his age? :cool:

However, I do agree with her, so I'll reply. Snape was ambitious, which was why he got into Slytherin. He was also interested in the Dark Arts. I think that being a DE was a natural choice for people like Snape, who wanted to be powerful, were interested in the Dark Arts, believed in the pureblood agenda, and let their ambition rule them. So, yes, I do think that Snape aspiring to be a powerful DE, even at age 11, is possible.

We know that Snape had those ambitions by the fifth year. There is no canon on which to base an assertion that he was already shaping up to be a DE at the age of eleven. In fact, I'd say that canon proves otherwise. Here is an extract from fifteen year old Lily's speech to Snape in their final encounter:

"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'

Canon is pretty clear: Severus had not yet joined Voldemort, at the age of 15, although it seems likely, from what Lily says, that he was planning to ... and that, of course, is a total deal-breaker for her.

I need a bite of Drusilla's cherry cake. :whistle:

*accordingly takes a bite of cake*

Mmmmm, that was delicious. :agree:

We know that Snape had those ambitions by the fifth year. There is no canon on which to base an assertion that he was already shaping up to be a DE at the age of eleven. In fact, I'd say that canon proves otherwise. Here is an extract from fifteen year old Lily's speech to Snape in their final encounter:

"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'

Canon is pretty clear: Severus had not yet joined Voldemort, at the age of 15, although it seems likely, from what Lily says, that he was planning to ... and that, of course, is a total deal-breaker for her.

I respect your view, however, there is canon that Regulus joined the Death Eaters at 16, which was the same age Snape was in 5th year when Lily ended the friendship (it was after owls and his birthday is early in the year). Notwithstanding what Lily knew or didn't know, imo, Snape may have already joined up; they didn't sport their Dark Marks openly after all. On the other hand, canon is not explicit about Snape, so he may have merely been planning to do so at some time in the future. Imo, both alternatives are reasonably supported by canon, but neither is canon fact, imo.

Imo, I don't personally feel that any child entered Hogwarts at 11 years old with an affirmative decision made to join up with the Death Eaters. However, I do believe that children attending in Snape's years could arrive at the idea of doing so shortly upon entering Hogwarts and being made aware that others were planning to do so and told of the delights and benefits of being one. (Much like Harry's early dreams of being an Auror, once he'd heard what they did.)

However, we don't have canon on when Snape began thinking about it (which may have been prior to arriving) or affirmatively deciding upon it (which imo, would have been after his arrival.)

I would also like to think that Lily had at least a little impact on him and caused him to consider a bit before affirmatively deciding based on the things she said and through her own behavior, even if only for a short while. However, as canon indicates (JKR), Snape at some point rationalized that Lily would be impressed by his becoming a DE and at that point he would have paid less attention to her words and behavior, imo. I agree that could have occurred anytime from first year Hogwarts and imo, it likely happened fairly rapidly (within a couple of years).

Imo, Lucius Malfoy was not dedicated (time wise) to recruiting because in canon, imo, he proved to be dedicated mostly to himself and his personal advancement - and imo, he'd happily take credit for it :lol:. However, there were many others who would influence young Slytherins by speaking of the benefits and privleges associated with becoming a Death Eater. Snape would hear these things and perhaps be caught up in the excitement with his friends, imo, but he did have the counter in Lily - and oddly enough, in following the Marauders around, he got yet even more influence in that regard, imo (he's watching a young group of people having fun without dark magic and blood prejudice involved, even though his purpose was to get them in trouble by watching - and even though he would only see so much each time as he was apparently caught out following them quite often.) Too, when he and Lily found time to hang out, she would similarly wish to talk and/or do whatever without dark magic or blood prejudice involved. So Snape would be free from the influence at those times and get a taste of another viewpoint unfettered by any influences of his Slytherin friends, imo. It is possible these things caused him to put off making an affirmative decision, at least for a little while.

I respect your view, however, there is canon that Regulus joined the Death Eaters at 16, which was the same age Snape was in 5th year when Lily ended the friendship (it was after owls and his birthday is early in the year). Notwithstanding what Lily knew or didn't know, imo, Snape may have already joined up; they didn't sport their Dark Marks openly after all. On the other hand, canon is not explicit about Snape, so he may have merely been planning to do so at some time in the future. Imo, both alternatives are reasonably supported by canon, but neither is canon fact, imo.

I agree with you, Wicked. I was, however, refuting the assertion that Snape might have been thinking of becoming a DE at the age of eleven. As you say:

Imo, I don't personally feel that any child entered Hogwarts at 11 years old with an affirmative decision made to join up with the Death Eaters.

Indeed. This was the point I was making to both Meesha and Vivekgk. :)

However, I do believe that children attending in Snape's years could arrive at the idea of doing so shortly upon entering Hogwarts and being made aware that others were planning to do so and told of the delights and benefits of being one. (Much like Harry's early dreams of being an Auror, once he'd heard what they did.)

Yes, possibly. (When did Harry first want to be an Auror, by the way?)

Imo, Lucius Malfoy was not dedicated (time wise) to recruiting because in canon, imo, he proved to be dedicated mostly to himself and his personal advancement - and imo, he'd happily take credit for it :lol:.

Point taken. :lol:

However, there were many others who would influence young Slytherins by speaking of the benefits and privleges associated with becoming a Death Eater. Snape would hear these things and perhaps be caught up in the excitement with his friends, imo, but he did have the counter in Lily - and oddly enough, in following the Marauders around, he got yet even more influence in that regard, imo (he's watching a young group of people having fun without dark magic and blood prejudice involved, even though his purpose was to get them in trouble by watching - and even though he would only see so much each time as he was apparently caught out following them quite often.) Too, when he and Lily found time to hang out, she would similarly wish to talk and/or do whatever without dark magic or blood prejudice involved. So Snape would be free from the influence at those times and get a taste of another viewpoint unfettered by any influences of his Slytherin friends, imo. It is possible these things caused him to put off making an affirmative decision, at least for a little while.

I agree with this. It's pretty much how I read the Snape and Lily friendship, actually. (I'm not discussing Snape and the Marauders. :p This is not the thread for that anyway. :) )

First of all, Meesha said that, not me.
Oops :blush: Sorry Vivekgk! Sorry Meesha!

Too, when he and Lily found time to hang out, she would similarly wish to talk and/or do whatever without dark magic or blood prejudice involved. So Snape would be free from the influence at those times and get a taste of another viewpoint unfettered by any influences of his Slytherin friends, imo. It is possible these things caused him to put off making an affirmative decision, at least for a little while.
Yay! I agree! :clap:

Draco's father is a senior Death Eater and secretly never renounced those beliefs; surely Lucius is aware of the secret plans among the DEs to resurrect Voldemort, he is one of the inner circle. No doubt he shielded his son from the full horrors of what the DEs got up to: Draco is only eleven. He's not a nice child but neither is he a potential murderer or even necessarily a DE in the making: he's only a child.

Why assume that eleven year old Snape is worse than Draco was at his age? :cool:
IMO, that argument only takes into consideration what Draco was actually capable of and not what they'd have liked to do. I'm not saying that either Draco or Snape were capable of being full-fledged DEs when they stepped into Hogwarts, just that they might have found the idea appealing. By second year, Draco, only twelve at the time, relishes the idea of Hermione being killed....But I know one thing - last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died. So I bet it's a matter of time before one of them's killed this time .... I hope it's Granger," he said with relish.This is what they talk about in the Slytherin Common Room, eleven years after the fall of Voldemort. I'd say that it was worse when he was in power. Snape definitely had the right attitude about muggles, and I can see him fitting right in. Not to mention, he was welcomed and taken under his wing by Lucius Malfoy himself, and would have been included in discussions of this nature.

We know that Snape had those ambitions by the fifth year. There is no canon on which to base an assertion that he was already shaping up to be a DE at the age of eleven. In fact, I'd say that canon proves otherwise. Here is an extract from fifteen year old Lily's speech to Snape in their final encounter:

"You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'
I respect your opinion, Pearl_Took, but canon only tells us that Snape had not joined up yet. It doesn't tell anythng about his intentions, or about how long he'd been planning to join. Lily tells us that she's been making excuses for years, and that gives us a time frame of no less than two years before, possibly longer. Thus, I don't see how canon invalidates my argument. I think it's a matter of opinion. The way I see it, Snape had come to Hogwarts armed with dark curses, and spent the next few years developing more of them, and even gives himself a title. He's basically planned to be (in)famous for his skill with Dark Magic. When someone is that dedicated to the Dark Arts, it does seem to me like he had an agenda, and that it was none too benign.

IMO, that argument only takes into consideration what Draco was actually capable of and not what they'd have liked to do. I'm not saying that either Draco or Snape were capable of being full-fledged DEs when they stepped into Hogwarts, just that they might have found the idea appealing. By second year, Draco, only twelve at the time, relishes the idea of Hermione being killed....But I know one thing - last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died. So I bet it's a matter of time before one of them's killed this time .... I hope it's Granger," he said with relish.This is what they talk about in the Slytherin Common Room, eleven years after the fall of Voldemort. I'd say that it was worse when he was in power. Snape definitely had the right attitude about muggles, and I can see him fitting right in. Not to mention, he was welcomed and taken under his wing by Lucius Malfoy himself, and would have been included in discussions of this nature.

I agree. Draco wasn't really shielded all that much - he knew what it would mean for Voldemort to return and what that would entail. He knew people would be tortured and/or killed - and he showed true pleasure at the thought of muggleborns being killed at the tender age of 12. Lucius made sure Draco didn't know enough details to get himself into trouble, but Draco knew enough to understand the scope of what would happen if Voldemort returned. We are shown - particularly in the first two books - that Draco had already chosen his side and knew exactly what that meant.

Really, the only difference between Snape and Draco is the fact that Draco was less capable as a wizard because he never had to work for anything. They both demonstrate the same attitude at the age of 11 - Snape was just more skilled because he had to work to earn respect. Draco could slide by on his father's reputation - Snape didn't have that and had to rely upon his skills to make his place among the Future Death Eaters of Britain.

I respect your opinion, Pearl_Took, but canon only tells us that Snape had not joined up yet. It doesn't tell anythng about his intentions, or about how long he'd been planning to join. Lily tells us that she's been making excuses for years, and that gives us a time frame of no less than two years before, possibly longer. Thus, I don't see how canon invalidates my argument. I think it's a matter of opinion. The way I see it, Snape had come to Hogwarts armed with dark curses, and spent the next few years developing more of them, and even gives himself a title. He's basically planned to be (in)famous for his skill with Dark Magic. When someone is that dedicated to the Dark Arts, it does seem to me like he had an agenda, and that it was none too benign.

Exactly. Lily gives us a time frame herself when she says that she had been making excuses for Snape for years. They've only known each other for about six years at that point and this was not a new argument. This was something that Lily had been worried about for years.

And Lily wasn't the only person who saw that - she was just the only one who made excuses for it. Her friends saw what kind of person Snape was and tried to warn her about him for years. Sirius and Lupin both knew that Snape had come to Hogwarts at the age of 11 knowing more curses than half the seventh years - so did James. Snape began building this reputation during his first year with encouragment and support from people like Lucius Malfoy.

Snape grew up knowing that he was a wizard and he would also have known what was going on in the wizarding world - Voldemort was starting to take over before Snape even went to Hogwarts. Like Draco, Snape demonstrated an attitude that he saw himself as superior to muggles and muggleborns and would have seen the plans for "purification" of the wizarding world as a good thing. Of course, he couldn't join the Death Eaters at the age of 11 - he needed to get his education first - but he began laying the foundation for that during his first year. He arrived knowing more curses than half the seventh years and began building his reputation. He expanded upon those curses by developing his own Dark Arts curses. He formed close associations with people who became Death Eaters - and planned on doing so while they were students. They knew they had to get their education in first, but they were preparing for that day when they could leave school and join Voldemort's ranks. The evidence given shows that Snape was preparing for that day as well - not just in his fifth year, but for years before that.

Age is only a factor insofar that it meant they would have to wait until they were older before they would be allowed to join the Death Eaters. And, yes, I would say the same thing for James and Sirius - both of them would have very likely been planning to join the Order at the age of 11 if they knew about it - Lupin too. We see the same thing from Harry when he was 11 - if he had known about the Order, he would have been all for joining the fight as soon as they would let him. So would Ron and Hermione for that matter. Being 11 doesn't mean you can't have an idea of what you want to do when you're older - it just limits what you will be allowed to do until you are older.

We are shown - particularly in the first two books - that Draco had already chosen his side and knew exactly what that meant.

I think your right when you say Draco had already chosen his side but I am not convinced that he really understood what that meant. If you look at what happens to him within a short time of joining the DE’s, it seems to me to indicate that while he may have been aware of some of the implications of LV’s return he did not realise what the reality of being a DE would entail or the effect it would have on him, jmo.

Really, the only difference between Snape and Draco is the fact that Draco was less capable as a wizard because he never had to work for anything. They both demonstrate the same attitude at the age of 11 - Snape was just more skilled because he had to work to earn respect. Draco could slide by on his father's reputation - Snape didn't have that and had to rely upon his skills to make his place among the Future Death Eaters of Britain.

I’m confused is this your interpretation or is there strong cannon evidence for this statement? :hmm:

Exactly. Lily gives us a time frame herself when she says that she had been making excuses for Snape for years. They've only known each other for about six years at that point and this was not a new argument. This was something that Lily had been worried about for years.

I’m not really sure how to interpret Lily’s use of the phrase for years. I keep remembering that for years means something quiet different for a child, a teenager and an adult. Our perception of time changes as we grow up and when we are teenagers everything is heightened, sometimes we can mistake something we feel now with something we have felt for a long time because it is such a strong feeling now. Now I do want to be clear – I am not trying to say that Lily has only had these feeling for a few days/ a week or two. However if she had been feeling it for sometime she might conceivably use the phrase for years when she simply means for a long time / many months or simply for a year. Or course she could be being very literal; I guess I’m just saying that maybe it’s not quite as straight forward as we might think at first.

Snape grew up knowing that he was a wizard and he would also have known what was going on in the wizarding world

I’m not sure we can be clear on how much contact Snape had with the wizarding world before attending Hogwarts. He could have learnt what he knew from his mother, or her books surely that is a possibility?

Snape demonstrated an attitude that he saw himself as superior to muggles and muggleborns and would have seen the plans for "purification" of the wizarding world as a good thing.

I don’t feel that dislike, or even prejudice, necessarily proves that one would agree with mass murder of the group you dislike/are prejudiced against. It’s a big leap from dislike/ prejudice to hate let alone to murder.

Being 11 doesn't mean you can't have an idea of what you want to do when you're older - it just limits what you will be allowed to do until you are older.

True but then neither does having an idea, at 11 years of age, of what you might want to be mean that that is what you will end up wanting to be. Harry is only given the idea of becoming an aurora in GoF when he is 15 & I would say there is a big difference between being 11 & being 15. :)

Age is only a factor insofar that it meant they would have to wait until they were older before they would be allowed to join the Death Eaters. And, yes, I would say the same thing for James and Sirius - both of them would have very likely been planning to join the Order at the age of 11 if they knew about it - Lupin too. We see the same thing from Harry when he was 11 - if he had known about the Order, he would have been all for joining the fight as soon as they would let him. So would Ron and Hermione for that matter. Being 11 doesn't mean you can't have an idea of what you want to do when you're older - it just limits what you will be allowed to do until you are older.

I do see merit in the idea that Snape decided to join the Death Eaters very early on, perhaps as early as 11 during first year, but for another reason. As soon as Lily found out about You-Know-Who and the distinction between light and dark magic - which likely happened within a couple of days because her friends from Gryffindor would inform her - she would begin to discredit anything Snape said about the dark arts or blood prejudice issues (with some muggles like herself being the exception) based on her character. Snape would hear the opposing views at that time, and I think he would have had to early on sought a rationale in his head to counter her arguments - as well as those of the other students who were putting down the dark arts and blood purism.

JRK said that Snape felt that being a DE would make him powerful and impressive and that Lily would be impressed with him. So it could be that he reached that conclusion as early as 11-12 years old and in his mind, he would have that defense against all outside counter-viewpoints. Still, I think Lily and the other students who were against Voldemort would make Snape, Avery, Mulciber and other younger students into the dark arts regime deliberate, at least a little during their first year. But I would agree that by year's end, most of them, including Snape would have reached their conclusions on the situation based on their new environment.

Imo, by 2nd year, Lily and Snape's friendship would become heavily impacted because their ideologies would be more firmly set and greatly diverging after a year at Hogwarts.

I’m not really sure how to interpret Lily’s use of the phrase for years. I keep remembering that for years means something quiet different for a child, a teenager and an adult. Our perception of time changes as we grow up and when we are teenagers everything is heightened, sometimes we can mistake something we feel now with something we have felt for a long time because it is such a strong feeling now. Now I do want to be clear – I am not trying to say that Lily has only had these feeling for a few days/ a week or two. However if she had been feeling it for sometime she might conceivably use the phrase for years when she simply means for a long time / many months or simply for a year. Or course she could be being very literal; I guess I’m just saying that maybe it’s not quite as straight forward as we might think at first.

Imo, "for years" likely meant about 3.5 years. According to various sources in canon, Snape was hanging around a group of Slytherins that were not hiding the fact that they followed the dark arts regime. Independent of where Snape's head was at during that time, Lily's friends would see this, note that this group was going about calling people 'mudblood', doing and/or approving dark magic and Voldemort and calling pureblood wizards who disagreed with them "blood traitors". So Lily would have cause to make excuses for Snape, her friend, to her other friends from Gryffindor (or other houses) who like Harry and the trio, wanted nothing to do with these people. They would not understand how Lily could be around one of the people from that group, considering she was against the dark arts regime, and of course, a Muggleborn - one who was scorned by the group, imo.

As I said above, I would imagine those in Snape's year would start making a more affirmative stand about the whole dark arts regime around 2nd year, and at that point, Lily would find herself having a lot more reason to make excuses about Snape to her friends, imo.

I have never believed that Snape "slipped" and called Lily a Filthy Little Mudblood; imo, Lily didn't believe that either. The thing is, if one goes about calling people that for years and making an exception for one's friend, who is inferior like the others, but 'special', then in anger or humiliation, one might vindictively use the term toward their friend, imo. But, I still have a difficult time understanding how Snape could have said it when he had a mega crush on her at the time. Imo, he must have felt quite superior to her in order to do so and then to seek an apology and have even a shread of hope that she would accept it. Everything else aside, Lily would have shown herself to have little if no self-respect in accepting his apology under the circumstances; she had been defending him at the time against his worst enemies and even raised her wand during that defense. Independent of whether or not Snape believed Lily to be flirting a bit, she had been quite rude to James in front of the crowd and quite loyal to Snape as a friend, imo.

I’m not really sure how to interpret Lily’s use of the phrase for years. I keep remembering that for years means something quiet different for a child, a teenager and an adult. Our perception of time changes as we grow up and when we are teenagers everything is heightened, sometimes we can mistake something we feel now with something we have felt for a long time because it is such a strong feeling now. Now I do want to be clear – I am not trying to say that Lily has only had these feeling for a few days/ a week or two. However if she had been feeling it for sometime she might conceivably use the phrase for years when she simply means for a long time / many months or simply for a year. Or course she could be being very literal; I guess I’m just saying that maybe it’s not quite as straight forward as we might think at first.
I thought that it was the other way round, that time seems to go faster the older you get. Lily's just 15, so a year for her would be 1/15th (6%) of her entire life. Dumbledore's 150, so it's just 1/150th (0.67%) of his life for him. Thus, I'd say that when Lily says years, she means a really long time.

IMO, to say that Lily was exaggerating at that point is unfair to her. I simply don't see the need to discredit Lily just to make Snape look better.

I’m not sure we can be clear on how much contact Snape had with the wizarding world before attending Hogwarts. He could have learnt what he knew from his mother, or her books surely that is a possibility?
Most wizarding families get the Prophet. In any case, Snape knew enough about the Wizarding World to answer all of Lily's doubts, and to conclude that being a muggleborn did make a difference.

I don’t feel that dislike, or even prejudice, necessarily proves that one would agree with mass murder of the group you dislike/are prejudiced against. It’s a big leap from dislike/ prejudice to hate let alone to murder.
It is a big leap, but some people are mean enough to make that jump when given the opportunity. Crabbe and Goyle for example. They're always portrayed as dumb lackies in the first six books, and then once they get a free hand, they're slinging killing curses and fiendfyre without regret.

True but then neither does having an idea, at 11 years of age, of what you might want to be mean that that is what you will end up wanting to be. Harry is only given the idea of becoming an aurora in GoF when he is 15 & I would say there is a big difference between being 11 & being 15.
I feel that Harry would have said that he wanted to be an auror, if he'd known what that was at 11, after looking at the speech he gives Hermione in PS"Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter anymore, can't you see? D'you think
he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the house cup? If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through that trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?"There is a difference between wanting to be an auror at 11 and at 15, because you understand the implications better. For instance, I wanted to be something different every month. However, I never had the strong motivation that Harry or Snape had, of growing up in a time of war, and having to pick a side.

There is a difference between wanting to be an auror at 11 and at 15, because you understand the implications better. For instance, I wanted to be something different every month. However, I never had the strong motivation that Harry or Snape had, of growing up in a time of war, and having to pick a side.

Well said, I agree. It is hard to imagine a young budding death eater wanting to join up with You-Know-Who, when they know he is out there doing You-Know-What - namely, murder. But it is also hard to imagine a Dark Lord with magical power at large in our society :lol:. So in their wizard world, this is not as far-fetched a notion; one did have real fantasy good and real fantasy evil to pick from. Lily even knew that Voldemort was doing horrible deeds; by her fifth year, he'd been in action for 6 and she was calling him You-Know-Who. Thus, imo, Snape did too. But there was power to be had and Snape wished to have it, imo, despite Lily's attempts to help him see that there were other roads to power - a type of power Snape could not grasp at that time, imo.

I do see merit in the idea that Snape decided to join the Death Eaters very early on, perhaps as early as 11 during first year, but for another reason. As soon as Lily found out about You-Know-Who and the distinction between light and dark magic - which likely happened within a couple of days because her friends from Gryffindor would inform her - she would begin to discredit anything Snape said about the dark arts or blood prejudice issues (with some muggles like herself being the exception) based on her character. Snape would hear the opposing views at that time, and I think he would have had to early on sought a rationale in his head to counter her arguments - as well as those of the other students who were putting down the dark arts and blood purism.

JRK said that Snape felt that being a DE would make him powerful and impressive and that Lily would be impressed with him. So it could be that he reached that conclusion as early as 11-12 years old and in his mind, he would have that defense against all outside counter-viewpoints. Still, I think Lily and the other students who were against Voldemort would make Snape, Avery, Mulciber and other younger students into the dark arts regime deliberate, at least a little during their first year. But I would agree that by year's end, most of them, including Snape would have reached their conclusions on the situation based on their new environment.

Imo, by 2nd year, Lily and Snape's friendship would become heavily impacted because their ideologies would be more firmly set and greatly diverging after a year at Hogwarts.

I think that could go either way really. We are shown in the text that Snape had knowledge of the wizarding world. His mother was a pure-blood witch and it is very likely that she got the Daily Prophet. It's also possible that she maintained contact with other family members. Snape is able to answer all of Lily's questions about the wizarding world. It is very likely that he already knew about the war and Voldemort before he even got his Hogwarts letter. He demonstrates the same prejudiced attitude towards muggles and muggleborns - he makes Lily the exception and justifies that because she has "loads of magic". And he does appear to have been making preparations towards that even before going to Hogwarts with learning all those curses. So what we see in the text does give a strong indication that Snape already had this plan in mind. At the very least, he had the inclination firmly planted.

I do agree that their first year at Hogwarts was a significant part of all that. No longer are they the only two magical children around - they are in the company of other magical children and begin to form new friendships with other people they have more in common with. Their individual ideologies were firmly set and they were at odds with each other.

Imo, "for years" likely meant about 3.5 years. According to various sources in canon, Snape was hanging around a group of Slytherins that were not hiding the fact that they followed the dark arts regime. Independent of where Snape's head was at during that time, Lily's friends would see this, note that this group was going about calling people 'mudblood', doing and/or approving dark magic and Voldemort and calling pureblood wizards who disagreed with them "blood traitors". So Lily would have cause to make excuses for Snape, her friend, to her other friends from Gryffindor (or other houses) who like Harry and the trio, wanted nothing to do with these people. They would not understand how Lily could be around one of the people from that group, considering she was against the dark arts regime, and of course, a Muggleborn - one who was scorned by the group, imo.

As I said above, I would imagine those in Snape's year would start making a more affirmative stand about the whole dark arts regime around 2nd year, and at that point, Lily would find herself having a lot more reason to make excuses about Snape to her friends, imo.

I agree. It seems likely that second year would have been where Lily began to make excuses for Snape to her friends. Though I would say it's also likely that she was making excuses to herself long before that. We don't see any positive interaction between Lily and Snape in the text - even before they go to Hogwarts - every encounter is marred by some type of disagreement with Lily getting upset over something Snape has said or done. Still, Snape was the person who had introduced her to the wizarding world and answered her questions. I think Lily did feel a strong sense of obligation because of that and she made a valient effort to try to maintain that friendship and save Snape from his own bad choices. Eventually, she had to accept that it was a losing battle because Snape was firmly set on that path and there was nothing she could say to change that.

I have never believed that Snape "slipped" and called Lily a Filthy Little Mudblood; imo, Lily didn't believe that either. The thing is, if one goes about calling people that for years and making an exception for one's friend, who is inferior like the others, but 'special', then in anger or humiliation, one might vindictively use the term toward their friend, imo. But, I still have a difficult time understanding how Snape could have said it when he had a mega crush on her at the time. Imo, he must have felt quite superior to her in order to do so and then to seek an apology and have even a shread of hope that she would accept it. Everything else aside, Lily would have shown herself to have little if no self-respect in accepting his apology under the circumstances; she had been defending him at the time against his worst enemies and even raised her wand during that defense. Independent of whether or not Snape believed Lily to be flirting a bit, she had been quite rude to James in front of the crowd and quite loyal to Snape as a friend, imo.

Completely agree. :agree:

I thought that it was the other way round, that time seems to go faster the older you get. Lily's just 15, so a year for her would be 15% of her entire life. Dumbledore's 150, so it's just 1.5% of his life for him. Thus, I'd say that when Lily says years, she means a really long time.

IMO, to say that Lily was exaggerating at that point is unfair to her. I simply don't see the need to discredit Lily just to make Snape look better.

I agree. I felt it was clear from the text that this was not the first time they had this argument. This was an old issue between them - really going back to the beginning with the way Snape had treated Petunia. If you want to get technical, Lily had been making excuses for Snape the entire time they had been friends - first to herself and then to her friends at Hogwarts.

Most wizarding families get the Prophet. In any case, Snape knew enough about the Wizarding World to answer all of Lily's doubts, and to conclude that being a muggleborn did make a difference.

Exactly. :agree:

It is a big leap, but some people are mean enough to make that jump when given the opportunity. Crabbe and Goyle for example. They're always portrayed as dumb lackies in the first six books, and then once they get a free hand, they're slinging killing curses and fiendfyre without regret.

I agree. We see that with Draco as well - particularly in his younger years. He relished the idea of muggleborns being tortured and killed - going so far as to wish for them to die - particularly Hermione - and sulk because his father wouldn't let him help in the plan with the Chamber of Secrets. Crabbe and Goyle follow right along behind him.

It was rather ironic - Dumbledore refused to hire Voldemort for the DADA position because he didn't want him recruiting his followers from the students. Yet that ended up happening anyway with many of Voldemort's followers planning to join him while they were students - they were just waiting to be old enough to join.

I feel that Harry would have said that he wanted to be an auror, if he'd known what that was at 11, after looking at the speech he gives Hermione in PS"Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter anymore, can't you see? D'you think
he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the house cup? If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through that trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?"There is a difference between wanting to be an auror at 11 and at 15, because you understand the implications better. For instance, I wanted to be something different every month. However, I never had the strong motivation that Harry or Snape had, of growing up in a time of war, and having to pick a side.

I agree. Even at the age of 11, a child can understand what a policeman does at it's most basic level - they catch the bad guys. And they can understand the basic concept of what a "bad guy" is and why they need to be caught. As they get older, this understanding will deepen and they'll learn more about what is involved with that.

That is no different in the wizarding world. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are fully capable of understanding why Voldemort is a bad guy and why it would be so dangerous for him to return. Even though they are young, they are willing to risk their own lives to protect others from the possibility of Voldemort returning. Had the Order been active at that time - and they had known about it - they would have wanted to join as soon as they were old enough even then.

I think that could go either way really. We are shown in the text that Snape had knowledge of the wizarding world. His mother was a pure-blood witch and it is very likely that she got the Daily Prophet. It's also possible that she maintained contact with other family members. Snape is able to answer all of Lily's questions about the wizarding world. It is very likely that he already knew about the war and Voldemort before he even got his Hogwarts letter. He demonstrates the same prejudiced attitude towards muggles and muggleborns - he makes Lily the exception and justifies that because she has "loads of magic". And he does appear to have been making preparations towards that even before going to Hogwarts with learning all those curses. So what we see in the text does give a strong indication that Snape already had this plan in mind. At the very least, he had the inclination firmly planted.

That is also very reasonable, imo. Somehow, Snape learned a bunch of curses and found out a lot of information about the wizard world before he went to Hogwarts and I would agree it was likely through his mother and his own association with the wizard world. Snape wanted to be in Slytherin and he did show an interest in the dark arts, so imo, his mother either had a pretty well stocked library or else she was a Slytherin, which was how most kids garnered a desire to go to a specific house.

I do agree that their first year at Hogwarts was a significant part of all that. No longer are they the only two magical children around - they are in the company of other magical children and begin to form new friendships with other people they have more in common with. Their individual ideologies were firmly set and they were at odds with each other.

This is true, imo. I was reading through DH - TPT the other day for a fun piece I'm doing for our law journal and I noticed that there are quite a number of memories of Lily and Snape before Hogwarts. I hadn't realized that there were quite as many cut scenes as there actually were. I agree that in every single one, there was a problem between Lily and Snape; and even in the one where they are just chatting, Lily becomes apprehensive based on what Snape is saying and what he's said before. That did make me feel that JKR was attempting to provide an outline of their friendship from the start to finish. Imo, they never seemed to really get on at all as friends and I am hard pressed now to know what they might have possibly spoken about that did not wind up in a confrontation or with one of them leaving with bad feelings.

Imo: they couldn't discuss their home life because Snape hated his and didn't like talking about it (understandably) and Lily couldn't speak of hers because Snape hated her sister and considered them all 'just muggles'. I think the 'when I grow up I want to be...' conversation would not go so well considering Snape's plans and Lily could not share the pain and hurt she felt from finding herself called Mudblood and treated as inferior by some at Hogwarts because they were Snape's friends and he was doing it too - to others. Snape couldn't share his inventions because Lily would totally not be into the dark ones, but we know from her reaction to James, she wasn't into the light ones either (Snape's spells and jixes in his book). I think kids would get bored talking about potions and transfiguration class/homework, much like we do speaking about math or biology after a while, but they would get pretty stumped for conversation, imo.

That led me to believe that they didn't spend all that much time together while at Hogwarts and over the years, less and less during the summer too, imo. I think that would be a natural consequence due to their minds diverging so much early on, imo. I think in 1st year they considered each other 'best friends' but quickly saw that was not going to pan out at Hogwarts and it became like a mantra of doom because in the end, Hogwarts separated them in many ways and their expanding belief systems separated them in others, more and more each day, imo. Still, both of them hung in there and Lily kept trying to show him the light - and perhaps Snape kept trying to show her the dark and in the end, it was quite impossible for such a friendship to continue, imo.

I agree. I felt it was clear from the text that this was not the first time they had this argument. This was an old issue between them - really going back to the beginning with the way Snape had treated Petunia. If you want to get technical, Lily had been making excuses for Snape the entire time they had been friends - first to herself and then to her friends at Hogwarts.

I agree; I interpreted the canon the same way. It was fairly obvious that was not the first time they had had the argument, rather that they had had it numerous times before. It reminds me of James flippantly asking Lily out in SWM, that too could not have been the first time he'd done so, imo. I think JKR was fairly good about helping us understand the circumstances, even when they were not given with minute detail.

I agree. We see that with Draco as well - particularly in his younger years. He relished the idea of muggleborns being tortured and killed - going so far as to wish for them to die - particularly Hermione - and sulk because his father wouldn't let him help in the plan with the Chamber of Secrets. Crabbe and Goyle follow right along behind him.

Draco was out there at first, but I have to say that he really surprised me in DH. I never saw that coming at all - the last thing I expected was for him to not identify the trio or tell Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry - or let him get away. The thing is, with young Snape, his behavior never surprised me because it reminded me a lot of the old Snape, despite his friendship with Lily. It seems to me that Snape "saw in Lily what he wanted to see" just as he did with James and later with Harry, imo. So while I do see the analogy between young Draco and young Snape - clearly - imo, Draco shows a growth in character that took place while he was at Hogwarts that Snape was not shown to have achieved. What is interesting is that Draco did not have a person like Lily attempting to show him the light along the way. Snape had a true advantange in that regard over Draco, Mulciber, Avery and many others from what we know in canon, imo. Unfortunately it didn't assist Snape while he was at Hogwarts, imo.

I agree. Even at the age of 11, a child can understand what a policeman does at it's most basic level - they catch the bad guys. And they can understand the basic concept of what a "bad guy" is and why they need to be caught. As they get older, this understanding will deepen and they'll learn more about what is involved with that.

This is true. I agree and I believe that deliberation would happen during year one and be definitive by the end of it. Imo, some would decide quicker than others during that year. I don't discount the notion that some might come into Hogwarts already determined to be death eaters, it is entirely possible. However, I would think in general most would make a real decision about it during their first year after being around others who were going to join and learning all about the benefits and privileges, plus rationalizing away other viewpoints (or finding them wrong and the DE way right).

I agree. It seems likely that second year would have been where Lily began to make excuses for Snape to her friends. Though I would say it's also likely that she was making excuses to herself long before that. We don't see any positive interaction between Lily and Snape in the text - even before they go to Hogwarts - every encounter is marred by some type of disagreement with Lily getting upset over something Snape has said or done. Still, Snape was the person who had introduced her to the wizarding world and answered her questions. I think Lily did feel a strong sense of obligation because of that and she made a valient effort to try to maintain that friendship and save Snape from his own bad choices. Eventually, she had to accept that it was a losing battle because Snape was firmly set on that path and there was nothing she could say to change that.
I really don't beleive that anyone would keep a friendship going for five plus years out of a sense of obligation. Furthermore I have had "friends of convenience" - that is friends who have only been my frineds because they lived close to me, and I can say that if anyone of them had been insulting others with a racial slur I wouldn't have made excuses for them no matter how obligated I felt. Lily was a strong character - I don't think she would have done this for someone who was a friend of convenience who she felt obligated to. And besides we have Jo telling us that Lily loved him as a friend. So I certainly believe that their friendship was something very genuine, and something that could have led to Snape making different choices.

I think that Snape wanted to be a Slytherin because that was his mother's house - and I really can't see that as a sinister reason any more that I can see James wanting to be in Gryffindor because it was his father's house as sinister. Snape certainly had a very keen interest in the Dark Arts from a young age, and that together with his ambition for power is what would have made him feel right at home in Slytherin. I personally think his anti-muggleborn prejudice was acquired to fit in; he is not the only person who we see talk of non-magic folk being "only muggles". If he was so anti-muggleborns he would never have been friends with Lily. Never! If you look at Draco's attitude when we first see him in Madame Maulkin's with Harry he is asking if his parents are "the right sort" and saying that "the other sort" shouldn't be allowed to go to Hogwarts. This is a very sharp contrast with Snape who tells Lily that being muggle-born makes no difference. We also see that ultimately Snape is as disgusted by the word "Mudblood" as Dumbledore and does not want the word used in his presence.
So just to make it clear IMO Snape wanted to become a DE out a love of the Dark Arts which he could indulge as a DE, and a desire for power, (I actually think his love of the Dark Arts and his desire for power are very closely linked) and that he adopted the prejudices of the DEs against muggles and muggleborns so he would fit in with the DEs and achieve his ambition. In many ways he is very similar to Percy in that he is blinded by ambition, and is prepared to adopt the attitudes of those who have power to fulfill his ambition.

I think your right when you say Draco had already chosen his side but I am not convinced that he really understood what that meant. If you look at what happens to him within a short time of joining the DE’s, it seems to me to indicate that while he may have been aware of some of the implications of LV’s return he did not realise what the reality of being a DE would entail or the effect it would have on him, jmo.

Exactly! I don't think Draco ever truly knows what he is getting himself into until it is too late. As far as Snape is concerned, I do think that he has an inkling of joining right from the start. I do not think it is something clearly defined or fully developed; however, I think the seeds of interest were present. I think that an 11 year old Snape is perfectly capable of desiring to join the DE's but I do not think that he would be capable of knowing what that choice would mean. As always, I see Snape as being drawn to the dark arts as a way to make a name for himself and to make himself feel worthy. I think this is the driving force behind his choice to join. Voldemort presents his group as powerful and influential and this is exactly what Snape was looking for while growing up. Therefore, I think it is entirely possible for Snape to have wanted to join at the age of 11; however, I do not believe he fully understood the ramifications of that choice.

IMO, to say that Lily was exaggerating at that point is unfair to her. I simply don't see the need to discredit Lily just to make Snape look better.

IMO, that's not what Kittling was doing. :cool:

All she was saying was that Lily might have been using a figure of speech about having made excuses for Snape "for years". Personally, I don't see how that is discrediting Lily 'just to make Snape look better.' :)

Canon doesn't tell us exactly when he first expressed an interest in joining the Death Eaters. It is, as ever, a matter of our individual interpretations. :)

Just a friendly reminder that everyone is entitled to their opinions and to be careful when interpreting what others are trying to say. Thanks.

I was sort of disappointed when Lily said she'd been making excuses for Snape for years. If she really was, why bother be his friend at all, all this time? It doesn't really follow. But if she was just angry and didn't mean it, why write it? I assume it was written in order to give the readers ideas, however, I didn't like the idea this line is trying to give. It defies the whole purpose of making them friends - that was supposed to be a big revelation, wasn't it? Snape's reason for turning his whole life around? It's not so big if it never was a genuine friendship though. That's what I think of it.

IMO, that's not what Kittling was doing. :cool:

All she was saying was that Lily might have been using a figure of speech about having made excuses for Snape "for years". Personally, I don't see how that is discrediting Lily 'just to make Snape look better.' :)

Canon doesn't tell us exactly when he first expressed an interest in joining the Death Eaters. It is, as ever, a matter of our individual interpretations. :)


:tu:Thank you Pearl_Took I didn't think I was discrediting Lily - I certainly didn't intend to :)

I think you summed my point up very fairly, personally! :cool:

That is also very reasonable, imo. Somehow, Snape learned a bunch of curses and found out a lot of information about the wizard world before he went to Hogwarts and I would agree it was likely through his mother and his own association with the wizard world. Snape wanted to be in Slytherin and he did show an interest in the dark arts, so imo, his mother either had a pretty well stocked library or else she was a Slytherin, which was how most kids garnered a desire to go to a specific house.

Exactly. :agree: Snape was very well informed about the wizarding world in general and he knew a lot about Hogwarts. It's important to remember that Snape's mother was a pure-blood witch so he was raised with this knowledge. He knew that he was a wizard so there was never any confusion about "odd" things happening around him. He was able to practice and learn to control that - and he knew that he didn't have to worry about getting into trouble for it until he had started at Hogwarts because the Ministry didn't really start keeping tabs on kids until then. He used this knowledge as the base to form a friendship with Lily - sharing that information with her because she did not have any other means to learn about it.

This is true, imo. I was reading through DH - TPT the other day for a fun piece I'm doing for our law journal and I noticed that there are quite a number of memories of Lily and Snape before Hogwarts. I hadn't realized that there were quite as many cut scenes as there actually were. I agree that in every single one, there was a problem between Lily and Snape; and even in the one where they are just chatting, Lily becomes apprehensive based on what Snape is saying and what he's said before. That did make me feel that JKR was attempting to provide an outline of their friendship from the start to finish. Imo, they never seemed to really get on at all as friends and I am hard pressed now to know what they might have possibly spoken about that did not wind up in a confrontation or with one of them leaving with bad feelings.

Imo: they couldn't discuss their home life because Snape hated his and didn't like talking about it (understandably) and Lily couldn't speak of hers because Snape hated her sister and considered them all 'just muggles'. I think the 'when I grow up I want to be...' conversation would not go so well considering Snape's plans and Lily could not share the pain and hurt she felt from finding herself called Mudblood and treated as inferior by some at Hogwarts because they were Snape's friends and he was doing it too - to others. Snape couldn't share his inventions because Lily would totally not be into the dark ones, but we know from her reaction to James, she wasn't into the light ones either (Snape's spells and jixes in his book). I think kids would get bored talking about potions and transfiguration class/homework, much like we do speaking about math or biology after a while, but they would get pretty stumped for conversation, imo.

That led me to believe that they didn't spend all that much time together while at Hogwarts and over the years, less and less during the summer too, imo. I think that would be a natural consequence due to their minds diverging so much early on, imo. I think in 1st year they considered each other 'best friends' but quickly saw that was not going to pan out at Hogwarts and it became like a mantra of doom because in the end, Hogwarts separated them in many ways and their expanding belief systems separated them in others, more and more each day, imo. Still, both of them hung in there and Lily kept trying to show him the light - and perhaps Snape kept trying to show her the dark and in the end, it was quite impossible for such a friendship to continue, imo.

Completely agree. The friendship was formed through necessity and convenience - not because of any mutual interests or goals. The only thing Snape and Lily ever had in common was the fact that they were both magical children - the only two magical children living in that area. Snape demonstrated immediately that he had no interest in becoming friends with anyone who was "just a muggle" - that left him with Lily as the only option for a potential friend because she was the only other magical child there. Even so, he feels the need to justify that friendship - it's okay for him to be friends with Lily because she has "loads of magic". It's an interesting similarity and contrast with Voldemort really. Snape shares a similar need to see himself as "special" because he's a wizard, but there's a contrast as well because he wants to have a friend - but not just any friend. His friend must be "special" as well.

For Lily - we see that she is at odds with Snape from the first time they meet. Yet she is also immensely curious about this knew world she has just discovered and her place in it. If she wants to learn anything more about this, then she has to go to Snape for the answers. We see that they are continually at odds because their interactions always end with Lily being upset/angry over something Snape has done, but she continually goes back for more information. Her curiosity outweighs everything else.

I think this would continue even after they went to Hogwarts. There is so much information about that world to learn - it's not something anyone is going to pick up and fully understand right away if they did not grow up knowing about that world. We see this with Harry - even by DH, he is still learning new things about the wizarding world from Ron. In that respect, Snape continues to be Lily's source of information - the person she can go to with her questions because she has always done so. During the summer holidays, Snape remains her only source of information. At Hogwarts, it is likely that she continued to go to Snape for information - at least initially - but I think that would have decreased over time as she formed other friendships.

So I do see a sense of obligation and duty there - Lily "owes" Snape because he introduced her to this world and continued to give her information about it. That's her justification - the reason she is driven to make excuses for Snape. And we are given an impression of where Harry gets his "saving people thing" - at least in part. Lily wants to save Snape from himself - as time passes and she realizes the dark path he's choosing, she tries to talk to him and get him to see how wrong all that is.

So it's friendship that was formed out of convenience and necessity with both of them continually at odds - there is a lot of conflict between them that cannot be resolved without one of them completely changing who they are and everything they believe in. It all comes to a head during their fifth year, but I think it is clear that this was building from the time that they met because of those conflicts. I agree that their first year at Hogwarts would likely have been the turning point and I think it does say a lot about Lily that she would try so hard to maintain this friendship and save Snape from those bad choices.

I agree; I interpreted the canon the same way. It was fairly obvious that was not the first time they had had the argument, rather that they had had it numerous times before. It reminds me of James flippantly asking Lily out in SWM, that too could not have been the first time he'd done so, imo. I think JKR was fairly good about helping us understand the circumstances, even when they were not given with minute detail.

I agree. It really wouldn't be feasible to write a scene showing every time this argument occurred - that would be redundant and boring. But Jo managed to convey that this was an ongoing argument between them. By showing those early conflicts and the fundamental differences in their personalities, she added to the sense that this friendship had been going downhill for a long time.

Draco was out there at first, but I have to say that he really surprised me in DH. I never saw that coming at all - the last thing I expected was for him to not identify the trio or tell Crabbe and Goyle not to kill Harry - or let him get away. The thing is, with young Snape, his behavior never surprised me because it reminded me a lot of the old Snape, despite his friendship with Lily. It seems to me that Snape "saw in Lily what he wanted to see" just as he did with James and later with Harry, imo. So while I do see the analogy between young Draco and young Snape - clearly - imo, Draco shows a growth in character that took place while he was at Hogwarts that Snape was not shown to have achieved. What is interesting is that Draco did not have a person like Lily attempting to show him the light along the way. Snape had a true advantange in that regard over Draco, Mulciber, Avery and many others from what we know in canon, imo. Unfortunately it didn't assist Snape while he was at Hogwarts, imo.

I can't say any of that surprised me really. Draco was never put in the position of having to do things for himself or earn anything - he had always had everything given to him. He envisioned himself as a leader - giving the orders while his "muscle" did all the dirty work. So it didn't surprise me very much that Draco didn't get much enjoyment when he became the servant and had to do the dirty deeds himself. I didn't expect him to identify the trio at Malfoy Manor either - there would be no benefit in doing so. Either Bellatrix or the snatchers were going to get credit for that capture and it wasn't going to make a difference to his family's situation. And there was a potential for that backfiring - Draco had enough experience dealing with the trio to know that it was possible they would find a way out and there would be punishment for that. So I wasn't surprised to see Draco play it safe.

Nor was I surprised that Draco wanted to capture Harry alive later. That instance provided a clear opportunity for him to regain his family's former honor and position by following Voldemort's orders. Voldemort was adamant that nobody was to kill Harry but himself. Draco knew that killing Harry would earn punishment - not reward - and he tried to get Crabbe and Goyle to understand that. They needed to give Harry to Voldemort alive. Draco demonstrated more caution than he had previously and it seemed that he was actually thinking things through in regards to the potential rewards and/or consequences. And that's not all bad - there were certainly benefits to the trio from Draco beginning to think things through. But there were dangers in that as well because Draco's goal was always towards the most benefit to himself and/or his family. And I do like the fact that there was any improvement at all - the fact that Draco was able to acknowledge the fact that Harry had saved him and be grateful - however begrudging he was about it - did show growth. :)

This is true. I agree and I believe that deliberation would happen during year one and be definitive by the end of it. Imo, some would decide quicker than others during that year. I don't discount the notion that some might come into Hogwarts already determined to be death eaters, it is entirely possible. However, I would think in general most would make a real decision about it during their first year after being around others who were going to join and learning all about the benefits and privileges, plus rationalizing away other viewpoints (or finding them wrong and the DE way right).

I agree. I think that would vary between individuals depending on how much they knew about it. Some would have a strong inclination to take that path and would make the decision during the first year. Others would already be set on that path when they arrived. The evidence given in the text regarding Snape could go either way - at the very least he had a strong inclination to take that path, but there are things that suggest he was already decided. But I agree that the first year would be significant overall because that is where most of these associations are formed. There isn't a whole lot of interaction shown between kids before they go to Hogwarts.

I was sort of disappointed when Lily said she'd been making excuses for Snape for years. If she really was, why bother be his friend at all, all this time? It doesn't really follow. But if she was just angry and didn't mean it, why write it? I assume it was written in order to give the readers ideas, however, I didn't like the idea this line is trying to give. It defies the whole purpose of making them friends - that was supposed to be a big revelation, wasn't it? Snape's reason for turning his whole life around? It's not so big if it never was a genuine friendship though. That's what I think of it.

I can relate to what you are saying. :) Imo, the memories that came before that one were attempting to show why Lily did remain friends with Snape for so long, especially since we saw Harry swear off being friends with Draco at their second meeting, and indeed became enemies because of Draco's attitude toward others (PS/SS).

Imo, it was distinct in that Snape and Lily met before Hogwarts and Lily had no idea at that point about the distinctions that wizards made between good and evil. Lily didn't know anything about the wizard world at all, in fact and Snape filled her in with his version. Snape had made it clear enough to Lily that being a 'muggle' had some distinction, enough for her to ask him if it made a difference and as we saw, Snape hesitated before answering in a dishonest manner and telling her that it did not, knowing that it did to many wizards. Imo, it made a difference to Snape because his retort to Petunia upon first meeting her was "Wouldn't spy on you, anyway," he added spitefully, "you're a Muggle." And just before boarding the Hogwarts Express, he responded to Lily's unhappiness at her sisters behavior by saying, "'She's only a --' He caught himself quickly" - and Lily didn't hear him. (DH - TPT).

Imo, the canon was clear that Snape already held a negative attitude toward muggleborns, but had made an exception for Lily.

Snape also had not explained the distinctions of the houses to Lily (TPT) and imo, he had not discussed the difference between light and dark magic to her because she questioned him when he told her she better be in Slytherin on the train. Lily, imo, didn't understand the ramifications of the conversation in her train compartment when James declared he would go home if he was sorted into Slytherin and Snape put down Gryffindor. Imo, she likely just thought it was a matter of 'which house is better' but did not understand the reputations involved with the houses.

So taking all of that into consideration, Lily, shown to be a friendly little girl, imo, would have made quick mates with some of her roomates at Gryffindor and quickly learned about all of the distinctions that Snape had not told her about. That would put a new spin on things for her with respect to Snape himself, imo, because she had listened to him degrade Muggles, but she would quickly see that other wizards were not like that at all.

Still, Snape had been her friend and imo, they would straight away get into conversations about the new information that Lily found out which differed from what Snape had told her or had not mentioned at all. Imo, Snape would continue to distort the truth of his feelings to some extent because he would understand that Lily was not going to approve of prejudice against Muggles (she was one) and not going to approve of the dark arts which pertained to the "bad guy" - You-Know-Who, aka Voldemort. While those things interested Snape, in the beginning, imo, he was interested in keeping his friendship, so he would not press those topics with her.

Honestly, I did believe that they must have shared some fun times and laughs and such in order to stay friends, however, upon carefully re-reading The Prince's Tale for a project I'm doing, imo, we are shown something altogether different. Based on what I said above, I believe that the friendship was glued together from the start on Snape being less than honest with Lily about his views, telling her that to him, being a Muggle didn't matter and that it was his 'friends' that had dark interests, but for him it did not have the same attraction. While I still believe they must have had some moments where they were not arguing, imo, after the re-read, I am inclined to think the discussion of Snape's behavior and beliefs came up more frequently than not.

The reason I feel that way is because JKR skipped right from Snape behaving in a lightly deceitful manner about his feelings in his youth, to Lily and Snape, older, discussing his behavior in a manner in which it was clear that Lily was trying to pierce through the half truths that Snape had told her (imo). For example, Lily says she hates his friends who were doing some dark magic on Mary and Snape responds, 'it was nothing, it was a laugh that's all'. Lily doesn't respond in a way that makes it seem as if Snape has admitted to her that he is into dark magic - on the contrary, she says "it was Dark Magic, and if you think that is funny-" then Snape immediately cuts her off and changes the topic. My interpretation of that scene supports the idea that Snape has been stringing Lily along since they met, never admitting to his true interests or full beliefs with respect to blood prejudice and dark magic.

So Lily, imo, would make excuses for Snape's behavior throughout; telling her friends that it was Snape's friends and not Snape himself that was interested in the dark arts - and telling them that he didn't really have blood prejudice despite the fact that he called people Mudblood, because he'd told her that for him, it didn't really matter - and he did keep her as a friend after all. Imo, she would conclude to them that he would eventually dump his friends and stop doing the things they did and saying the things they said. Imo, she tried to convince herself of that as well.

Thus, in the scene where she ends the friendship, she seems suddenly so harsh. Lily realizes then that it is her who has been deceived, imo, that Snape who that very day had used a dark arts curse before her eyes and called her a filthy little Mudblood in public, was much more involved than he'd led her to believe and his feelings about Muggles and Muggleborns was the same as his friends, but he'd merely made an exception for her. That is why, imo, she said "I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine." And that is why when Snape said, "no-listen. I didn't mean -" she cut him off. He'd been telling her less than the truth about himself since the beginning - and that is the "for years" she was referring to. Not 3.5 years as I first thought, but rather 5-6 years, Snape had been disguising the truth about his real feelings, beliefs and attitudes for her benefit, imo. Thus, imo, Lily felt deceived and that she had been made to look foolish all of that time because she'd trusted Snape when he'd told her the 1/2 truths about himself and made excuses to her friends for him. Now, she would have to go back and eat crow before them, admitting they had been right, and she had been wrong.

There was an analogy made with Harry and Draco v. Lily and Snape, but I think there were distinctions. Harry had been our guide (as readers) up to that point and it was thus surprising to see that his mother would react to someone with dark interests so differently than he had, imo. But in reality, Draco did not behave in a deceitful manner at all, he told Harry straight away that he saw Muggles and Muggleborns as different and he added Blood Traitors to boot. After laying it out on the table, Draco gave Harry a clear choice of being his friend and agreeing with him or joining the blood traitors and muggles and not being his friend. Harry of course chose the latter. Whereas Snape did not do this because he wanted to keep Lily as a friend, imo, so he did not make his attitude and beliefs clear and he didn't present his friendship with her as a choice between accepting who he was and joining him or not being friends. Instead Snape did what he felt he had to do to make Lily want to remain friends and that was by behaving in a deceptive manner when it came to his true stance, imo.

So that is why JKR wrote their friendship in the way she did, imo, and why she included the line "for years", because she wanted to show that Lily had not accepted Snape as he was and considered him a good friend on those terms, but rather allowed him to convince her that he was someone he was not, imo. The 'revelation' in DH, imo, was not to emphasize the friendship between Lily and Snape as much as what Snape took away from it in the end, imo. The friendship itself was a wash, imo, and ended on poor terms. However, Snape did not lose the emotions he'd generated for Lily during their friendship in a romantic sense, and even though they were never returned, he continued to feel them throughout his life - thus they served as the basis for his march to the good side and his continuing to assist Dumbledore for a long while, imo. I do not believe that JKR was attempting to show that Snape's emotions were particularly good because they caused his life to be an unhappy one and did not enable him to treat others, including Lily's son, in a positive fashion, imo. However, imo, they did inspire Snape to do brave things apart from that and that was the aspect that was focused upon in the end, imo, which did not pertain to Lily with respect to who she was, but only to Snape and his memory of their friendship from his view and the Lily he imagined her to have become, imo.




I can't say any of that surprised me really. Draco was never put in the position of having to do things for himself or earn anything - he had always had everything given to him. He envisioned himself as a leader - giving the orders while his "muscle" did all the dirty work. So it didn't surprise me very much that Draco didn't get much enjoyment when he became the servant and had to do the dirty deeds himself. I didn't expect him to identify the trio at Malfoy Manor either - there would be no benefit in doing so. Either Bellatrix or the snatchers were going to get credit for that capture and it wasn't going to make a difference to his family's situation. And there was a potential for that backfiring - Draco had enough experience dealing with the trio to know that it was possible they would find a way out and there would be punishment for that. So I wasn't surprised to see Draco play it safe.

Nor was I surprised that Draco wanted to capture Harry alive later. That instance provided a clear opportunity for him to regain his family's former honor and position by following Voldemort's orders. Voldemort was adamant that nobody was to kill Harry but himself. Draco knew that killing Harry would earn punishment - not reward - and he tried to get Crabbe and Goyle to understand that. They needed to give Harry to Voldemort alive. Draco demonstrated more caution than he had previously and it seemed that he was actually thinking things through in regards to the potential rewards and/or consequences. And that's not all bad - there were certainly benefits to the trio from Draco beginning to think things through. But there were dangers in that as well because Draco's goal was always towards the most benefit to himself and/or his family. And I do like the fact that there was any improvement at all - the fact that Draco was able to acknowledge the fact that Harry had saved him and be grateful - however begrudging he was about it - did show growth. :)

I know this was in analogy with Snape and it would get off topic to discuss it, but I have to say I interpreted this all distinctly in relation to Draco. Nonetheless, I would agree that Draco showed growth at an earlier age that Snape with respect to his views on Voldemort/dark arts. I also think it is odd considering Snape's friendship with Lily in light of Draco not having anyone that was attempting to set him straight during his first 5 years at Hogwarts. Imo, Lily may not have been able to be as much assistance because she had convinced herself that Snape was not the person he seemed to be. Imo, that would influence her efforts in relation to how she went about talking to Snape with respect to these important issues.

I was sort of disappointed when Lily said she'd been making excuses for Snape for years. If she really was, why bother be his friend at all, all this time? It doesn't really follow. But if she was just angry and didn't mean it, why write it? I assume it was written in order to give the readers ideas, however, I didn't like the idea this line is trying to give. It defies the whole purpose of making them friends - that was supposed to be a big revelation, wasn't it? Snape's reason for turning his whole life around? It's not so big if it never was a genuine friendship though. That's what I think of it.

Yes I agree! :tu: To me the whole point was that they were really friends. If they had never been "real" friends then Snape really had nothing to loose by going off and joining the Death Eaters. This is IMO what makes his story so tragic - he was friends with Lily, but lost that friendship because of his interest in the Dark Arts and DE ambitions. To me the Snape that made friends with Lily in the playground was a very different person to the boy who called her a "filthy Mudblood". During those intervening years Snape had changed, but Lily was so close that she didn't take notice of the change in him until it jumped up and bit her.

IMO given that their friendship got off to such a rocky start I do not believe that it would have continued beyond first term (let alone first year) with them being in different houses unless they both had genuine affection for each other. In addition we also know that Lily is rather discerning about whom she befriends - she won't have anything to do with the "arrogant toe-rag" James Potter, so I think we can say that if Severus had really been such an unpleasant character during his early years at Hogwarts then Lily would not have remained friends with him. I also don't think that he would have been able to fool Lily as to his true character for so long.

So putting all the evidence together my conclusion is that when we see him in the playground Severus is a grubby, neglected boy with issues, but when Lily ends their friendship he has become a budding DE who thinks the Dark Arts are a bit of a laugh. It is this progression which IMO makes Snape so interesting - and so tragic.

IMO given that their friendship got off to such a rocky start I do not believe that it would have continued beyond first term (let alone first year) with them being in different houses unless they both had genuine affection for each other. In addition we also know that Lily is rather discerning about whom she befriends - she won't have anything to do with the "arrogant toe-rag" James Potter, so I think we can say that if Severus had really been such an unpleasant character during his early years at Hogwarts then Lily would not have remained friends with him. I also don't think that he would have been able to fool Lily as to his true character for so long.

I would respectfully disagree that canon shows Lily wanted nothing to do with James Potter; she never said that in canon to my recollection, and imo, canon proves that just the opposite was true. Snape would have not felt in the least bit jealous if Lily had spent every minute in his presence disparaging James and agreeing with Snape that he was a total ingrate. Imo, Lily and James got on like normal housemates for the most part - not particular friends at all, but on speaking terms. But, imo, that was too much for Snape and that is why he had an underlying jealousy of James despite Lily not being good friends with him. Lily was not spiteful and petty, imo, she would not decide to hate James and badmouth him and/or exhibit hateful behavior toward him on a regular basis; imo, that was not the type of person she was shown to be in canon. Imo, she would only show disdain for elaborate uncalled for pranking or hex wars - but as canon provides, that was only a small part of who James Potter was. This was Snape's problem and what his jealousy was founded in, imo. Imo, Lily would cheer and congratulate James for Quidditch like all her house mates, she would admire his being #1 or #2 in their year and she would admire him for being friends with the sickly and poor looking Remus. Imo, she wouldn't think twice about borrowing a pen from James in the library, for example, and that would be why Snape would not be comfortable with Lily thinking him an arrogant toerag - because she still interacted with the 'bullying toerag' in a purely platonic sense as a housemate.

Imo, Lily made excuses for Snape, unwilling to believe the things he was saying and doing were his 'true persona' - but in the end she admitted they were. I do not believe that Snape was an 'unpleasant character' when around Lily for the most part I feel he tried not to be. For example he would not call anyone a Mudblood if they passed one while walking on the school grounds talking or eagerly speak about his interests in the dark arts. Imo, Lily saw the unpleasant side of Snape's character when he was not around her, but rather with his other friends. Too, I think he was unpleasant in character with her when they discussed the dark arts or his views on muggleborns and muggles, but Snape, according to canon, quickly got them off of those topics during their conversations, imo, and likely avoided them as much as possible so that would limit the impact of those moments. By the time they reached 5th year however, it appeared as though Lily was less inclined to allow the topics to drop, imo, and she was forced to recognize that the unpleasant side of Snape's nature that her friends complained about was not feigned by Snape, but was real. That, imo, is why she ended the relationship.

So that is why JKR wrote their friendship in the way she did, imo, and why she included the line "for years", because she wanted to show that Lily had not accepted Snape as he was and considered him a good friend on those terms, but rather allowed him to convince her that he was someone he was not, imo. The 'revelation' in DH, imo, was not to emphasize the friendship between Lily and Snape as much as what Snape took away from it in the end, imo. The friendship itself was a wash, imo, and ended on poor terms. However, Snape did not lose the emotions he'd generated for Lily during their friendship in a romantic sense, and even though they were never returned, he continued to feel them throughout his life - thus they served as the basis for his march to the good side and his continuing to assist Dumbledore for a long while, imo. I do not believe that JKR was attempting to show that Snape's emotions were particularly good because they caused his life to be an unhappy one and did not enable him to treat others, including Lily's son, in a positive fashion, imo. However, imo, they did inspire Snape to do brave things apart from that and that was the aspect that was focused upon in the end, imo, which did not pertain to Lily with respect to who she was, but only to Snape and his memory of their friendship from his view and the Lily he imagined her to have become, imo.

Brilliant analysis! :tu:

I think that is the crux of the issue - and one of the reasons this whole plot line was really disappointing. From what we are shown in the text, Snape deceived Lily and Lily allowed herself to be deceived. I think the very fact that she had to make excuses for him and could not defend him with the facts should have been a red flag for her - she deceives herself as much as Snape deceived her. It was a good thing that she finally accepted the truth and stopped deceiving herself - as well as not allowing Snape to continue to deceive her - but I felt that took far too long and that was disappointing.

However, it is understandable because it was an emotional issue. It is hard to admit when you've made a mistake - particularly with someone you wanted to believe was your friend. We see the same thing with Dumbledore and Grindelwald in the text. Grindelwald deceived Dumbledore and Dumbledore allowed himself to be deceived. As Jo said, that was Dumbledore's tragedy - and there are correlations to the situation with Lily and Snape there. Both Lily and Dumbledore wanted the deception to be true and they ignored all the warning signs and made excuses to allow themselves to believe it. That's human nature really. And it's part of the tragedy for both of them. I find the parallels between those two situations intriguing.

I know this was in analogy with Snape and it would get off topic to discuss it, but I have to say I interpreted this all distinctly in relation to Draco. Nonetheless, I would agree that Draco showed growth at an earlier age that Snape with respect to his views on Voldemort/dark arts. I also think it is odd considering Snape's friendship with Lily in light of Draco not having anyone that was attempting to set him straight during his first 5 years at Hogwarts. Imo, Lily may not have been able to be as much assistance because she had convinced herself that Snape was not the person he seemed to be. Imo, that would influence her efforts in relation to how she went about talking to Snape with respect to these important issues.

I agree. I find the parallels between Draco and Snape interesting as well because they both start out in very similar places at the age of 11. We are shown in the text that both were prejudiced and saw themselves as superior - the reasons were slightly different, but the overall attitude and beliefs were the same. The text also shows that they both demonstrated a fascination/love of the Dark Arts and they both had strong inclinations to become Death Eaters in their first year. The biggest difference between them that I see is the fact that Draco was never as skilled because he had never had to work at or earn anything whereas Snape did have to work hard and earn his accomplishments.

At the same time, we are shown in the text that Draco was always honest about what he believed. He presented himself to Harry honestly - openly showing his prejudices and advising Harry not to associate with the "wrong sort". Harry made his decision not to be friends with Draco because he knew from the start that this was not a boy he wanted to associate with - they had different personalities and beliefs. In contrast, we are shown in the text that Snape operates with deception and tells Lily what he thinks she wants to hear - and he's very quick to figure out what will upset her and tries not to say that again. But I feel it's also clear that he still believes those things because he occasionally slips up and catches himself - like when he said "she's only a ..." and stopped himself. From what we see in the text, the person Lily thought of as her friend didn't actually exist because it was false image that Snape created for her benefit.

By the same token, it does not appear that Snape ever really knew Lily for who she really was. He created an image of her and conformed her to that. He brushes aside her concerns and it does not appear that he values her opinion at all. I think the image he created was of someone who would not criticize him or disagree with him. That is the tragedy of it really - had Snape been able to see Lily for who she really was and value her opinion, I think things might have been different. Of course, he would have been a different person in that event so it's kind of a catch-22. I really don't see any way that their friendship could have survived without one of them being a completely different person from the start.

Imo, Lily and James got on like normal housemates for the most part - not particular friends at all, but on speaking terms. But, imo, that was too much for Snape and that is why he had an underlying jealousy of James despite Lily not being good friends with him. Lily was not spiteful and petty, imo, she would not decide to hate James and badmouth him and/or exhibit hateful behavior toward him on a regular basis; imo, that was not the type of person she was shown to be in canon. Imo, she would only show disdain for elaborate uncalled for pranking or hex wars - but as canon provides, that was only a small part of who James Potter was. This was Snape's problem and what his jealousy was founded in, imo. Imo, Lily would cheer and congratulate James for Quidditch like all her house mates, she would admire his being #1 or #2 in their year and she would admire him for being friends with the sickly and poor looking Remus. Imo, she wouldn't think twice about borrowing a pen from James in the library, for example, and that would be why Snape would not be comfortable with Lily thinking him an arrogant toerag - because she still interacted with the 'bullying toerag' in a purely platonic sense as a housemate.
But the interactions we are shown between Lily and James before they started dtaing are very negative. In the first case she said "Let's find another carriage Severus" (paraphrased) and in the other interaction she throws an absolute tirade at him (SWM). The other time she references him she calls him an arrogant toerag - and that's after telling Severus that she should be grateful because James saved him. IMO this shows that Lily can see the good and the bad in people. As such the canon we have of Lily and James relationship up to and including fifth year is that she didn't like him at all. As such the idea that they had positive interaction is pure speculation with absolutely no basis in canon. In fact Severus had no reason to be jealous of James - he knew Lily didn't like him - but when she suggests that Sev should be grateful that is when he feels uneasy because he knows that James fancies her. I would say that it was actually James who was envious of Severus because Lily was friends with him and that this was a contributing factor to why Severus was "a special case" - because James was envious of him.

Imo, Lily made excuses for Snape, unwilling to believe the things he was saying and doing were his 'true persona' - but in the end she admitted they were. I do not believe that Snape was an 'unpleasant character' when around Lily for the most part I feel he tried not to be. For example he would not call anyone a Mudblood if they passed one while walking on the school grounds talking or eagerly speak about his interests in the dark arts. Imo, Lily saw the unpleasant side of Snape's character when he was not around her, but rather with his other friends. Too, I think he was unpleasant in character with her when they discussed the dark arts or his views on muggleborns and muggles, but Snape, according to canon, quickly got them off of those topics during their conversations, imo, and likely avoided them as much as possible so that would limit the impact of those moments. By the time they reached 5th year however, it appeared as though Lily was less inclined to allow the topics to drop, imo, and she was forced to recognize that the unpleasant side of Snape's nature that her friends complained about was not feigned by Snape, but was real. That, imo, is why she ended the relationship.
But if Lily did not really know Severus then how could they be called friends - and how could it be said that Lily loved him as a friend? IMO Lily wasn't that bothered by Severus's interest in the Dark Arts until his friends started using them on other students. We see in SWM that Severus was very knowledgeable not just in the Dark Arts but in Defense against the Dark Arts. This contrasts with Draco Malfoy who regards DADA as rubbish, and whose friends Crabbe and Goyle failed their DADA OWL. This sets Severus Snape up as being very different from Draco Malfoy and Crabbe and Goyle. To me Severus Snape's true persona is the one we see with Dumbledore; the "Severus Snape the Death Eater" persona was one he adopted in order to achieve power. As I said before in that respect he was like Percy Weasley. So just as the Weasley family argued with "pompous Percy the Ministry minion" so Lily argued with "Severus Snape the Budding Death Eater" Both Severus and Percy made bad choices due to their ambition and both changed and worked for the Order.

I think that is the crux of the issue - and one of the reasons this whole plot line was really disappointing.I didn't find Snape's story line disappointing. I found it very moving and very tragic.

But the interactions we are shown between Lily and James before they started dtaing are very negative. In the first case she said "Let's find another carriage Severus" (paraphrased)

I respect your view, but that was following negative interaction - prior to that, Lily had no problem sitting in the carriage with Sirius and James - that is where Snape found her.

and in the other interaction she throws an absolute tirade at him (SWM).

I respect your view, but imo, that scene also showed that she was on speaking terms with James. She did not immediately cut into him as if she absolutely hated him and wanted nothing to do with him. First she stood their flirting after starting up a conversation with him. She also proved she had been watching him before all of this started as she remarked about his playing with a Snitch he'd not had before (Sirius asked him where he'd gotten it as he'd never seen it before either and James remarked he'd just nicked it). So canon evidenced that there was not a total negation of interaction between James and Lily prior to SWM and that all of it was indeed, not negative, imo. JKR herself indicated that Lily had a crush on James at that point, so, imo, she could not have developed same if their total relationship prior to that had been negative. Nor would she have taken his side in the rescue he made of Snape - or in asking Snape why he was so obsessed with him/them imo, if that were the case.

But I also don't feel all of Lily's interaction with Snape was entirely negative, even though that is all we were shown. My only conclusion was that they likely argued about his interests and friends more than I had originally thought based on the memories. In re-reading for my project, I also concluded that Snape was holding back with Lily when it came to his beliefs in order to keep their friendship ongoing, imo.

But if Lily did not really know Severus then how could they be called friends - and how could it be said that Lily loved him as a friend?

I agree Lily loved Snape as a friend - the friend she had convinced herself that he was, imo. My only point was that she did not love the fact that Snape held dark interests or engaged in dark acts, or had dark friends and appeared to be, with them, interested in joining Voldemort - nor did she love that he expressed blood prejudice against Muggleborns, imo, this is all based on the things she said at the time of the break up and in memory #5. But prior to that, she did had convinced herself that those things were not the 'real Snape' - that is why she said she was finished pretending that Snape was not on the dark path he appeared to be on, imo. When she ended the friendship, she did not love the person that Snape was, imo, she had loved the friend she thought/hoped he could be, but that person, she determined, did not exist, imo, that is why she ended the friendship.

I think that is the crux of the issue - and one of the reasons this whole plot line was really disappointing. Snape deceived Lily and Lily allowed herself to be deceived. The very fact that she had to make excuses for him and could not defend him with the facts should have been a red flag for her - she deceives herself as much as Snape deceived her. It was a good thing that she finally accepted the truth and stopped deceiving herself - as well as not allowing Snape to continue to deceive her - but I felt that took far too long and that was disappointing.

When I was reading this it brought to my mind something Remus said about Lily, that she could see the good in people, even if, or especially when, they couldn’t see it in themselves.

That make me question whether Snape had a real side and a false-self he displayed to Lily, or whether Lily saw & brought out his better side. I always felt the implication of Remus’s comment was that she did bring out the best in people. And I think it is true that some people can do this, & others can have the opposite effect, I think many parents have seen the effect a good friend, or a bad one, can have on their children why should this situation be any different?

As I said before in that respect he was like Percy Weasley. So just as the Weasley family argued with "pompous Percy the Ministry minion" so Lily argued with "Severus Snape the Budding Death Eater" Both Severus and Percy made bad choices due to their ambition and both changed and worked for the Order.

I haven’t heard that before, I think it’s an interesting idea and it certainly explains the presence of that particular story line well imo. :)

I respect your view, but that was following negative interaction - prior to that, Lily had no problem sitting in the carriage with Sirius and James - that is where Snape found her.



I respect your view, but imo, that scene also showed that she was on speaking terms with James. She did not immediately cut into him as if she absolutely hated him and wanted nothing to do with him. First she stood their flirting after starting up a conversation with him. She also proved she had been watching him before all of this started as she remarked about his playing with a Snitch he'd not had before (Sirius asked him where he'd gotten it as he'd never seen it before either and James remarked he'd just nicked it). So canon evidenced that there was not a total negation of interaction between James and Lily prior to SWM and that all of it was indeed, not negative, imo. JKR herself indicated that Lily had a crush on James at that point, so, imo, she could not have developed same if their total relationship prior to that had been negative. Nor would she have taken his side in the rescue he made of Snape - or in asking Snape why he was so obsessed with him/them imo, if that were the case.

I agree. I feel it was clear that Lily understood the difference as well. She didn't like James' behavior either and saw him as arrogant, but she also saw that he was not practicing the Dark Arts and respected that he would save someone's life even though he didn't like that person very much. She was attracted to James, but she was learning from her mistakes with Snape - she had learned that you can't change people - they have to want to change themselves. She told James what it was she didn't like about his behavior - the rest was up to him.

I agree Lily loved Snape as a friend - the friend she had convinced himself that he was, imo. My only point was that she did not love the fact that Snape held dark interests or engaged in dark acts, or had dark friends and appeared to be, with them, interested in joining Voldemort - nor did she love that he expressed blood prejudice against Muggleborns, imo, this is all based on the things she said at the time of the break up and in memory #5. But prior to that, she did had convinced herself that those things were not the 'real Snape' - that is why she said she was finished pretending that Snape was not on the dark path he appeared to be on, imo. When she ended the friendship, she did not love the person that Snape was, imo, she had loved the friend she thought/hoped he could be, but that person, she determined, did not exist, imo, that is why she ended the friendship.

Exactly. :agree:

Snape deceived Lily and Lily allowed herself to be deceived. The very fact that she had to make excuses for him and could not defend him with the facts should have been a red flag for her - she deceives herself as much as Snape deceived her.If Severus had deceived Lily why did she have to make excuses for him? The fact that she makes excuses IMO implies that she knew what was he was doing and made excuses for his behaviour, not that he deceived her about his behaviour.

I respect your view, but that was following negative interaction - prior to that, Lily had no problem sitting in the carriage with Sirius and James - that is where Snape found her. The fact that the interaction was negative was the point I was making. We are not shown any positive interaction between Lily and James while they are at school.

But prior to that, she did had convinced herself that those things were not the 'real Snape' - I'm not sure what you mean by the "real Snape" IMO Lily was Snape's friend and as such she was in a better position than anyone to judge his character. Canon shows us that Lily is discerning in her friends; that she does not make friends with people whose behaviour she finds objectionable yet she became a friend of Severus Snape and remained his friend until the end of fifth year. She says she has been making excuses for him for years - not that she had never really known him or that she didn't know why they had ever been friends. IMO if Jo had wanted us to interpret Lily's words as meaning that she hadn't known the "real Severus" then that is what she would have written. As it is Lily says she has been making excuses for him for years, something that IMO implies that Severus has changed and is no longer a person that Lily wants to be friends with, rather than he was never a person she wanted to be friends with and he deceived her.

ETA: When Lily says she has been making excuses for him IMO it is because the person she had become friends with would not do those things. When she says "I can't pretend anymore" IMO she is saying "I can't pretend that your behaviour is okay", or to put it another way "I can't pretend that the person you have become is someone I want to be friends with."

If I recall correctly, Lily never says specifically what behavior she had been "making excuses" for. I don't see Lily as the type to write off dark arts spells if she knew Severus had been casting them-or ever witnessed these things herself. Yet she was implies she was hearing her friends deride Snape about something that she herself did not see in him for most of their younger school days. pre-hogwarts Snape did not identify Slytherin as a house that would forbid Lily on her Muggleborn status alone.

It seems to me the most immediate thing other kids would have criticized Severus for would be his anti-social personality- which Lily would have more tolerance for because he didn't display that side to her.

So I am also in the camp that he might not have truly delved into the Dark Arts until around his fifth year. When he did Lily made the right choice in stepping away from him at that time.

I believe Rowling herself said that Snape might have had a chance with Lily- had he not made that choice and take the Dark Arts path. I can't see how a boy who was dark from the start -and only deceiving Lily- would have ever had a chance with her.

I believe Rowling herself said that Snape might have had a chance with Lily- had he not made that choice and take the Dark Arts path. I can't see how a boy who was dark from the start -and only deceiving Lily- would have ever had a chance with her.

Here's the exact quote.

She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

It sounds like that was the point - Snape did not have a chance because he was dark from the start. If he had not loved the Dark Arts so much, things might have been different. Of course, as I was saying before, that would have made Snape a completely different person all together and there probably wouldn't have been any problems in their friendship if that were the case.

Last chance guys. Something is canon or it's your opinion. If it's canon, then tell me where it says it. If you can't tell me where it says that in the books or interviews then it's your opinion. Your interpretation of books, interviews etc is ALWAYS your opinion and this should be indicated. If not then I'm bouncing you from LS for a week. If you've been bounced for a week from LS before then I'm bouncing you for 30 days.

I think that they were good friends and that she would have of tryed her best. But because of the rivalrys between the houses and Snape going over to the dark side, would have of made the friendship hard. So I would have of thought they would still say hello in corridoor and things. But I think the main friendship would have of frazzled out.

I believe Rowling herself said that Snape might have had a chance with Lily- had he not made that choice and take the Dark Arts path. I can't see how a boy who was dark from the start -and only deceiving Lily- would have ever had a chance with her.I'd have to agree that Snape didn't likely start out with heavy-duty dark arts. I think at first he may have been interested in the topic without actively performing/engaging in it, but as he became older, he became more and more embroiled in the study and utilization of dark spells. Thus Lily probably witnessed him sinking deeper and deeper into the dark arts. But she probably didn't know about his interest in the beginning since it wouldn't have been something he was seriously engaging in at the time.

Here's the exact quote.

She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

It sounds like that was the point - Snape did not have a chance because he was dark from the start. If he had not loved the Dark Arts so much, things might have been different. Of course, as I was saying before, that would have made Snape a completely different person all together and there probably wouldn't have been any problems in their friendship if that were the case.


Thank you for posting the quote. As I said earlier, I think that Snape had the yen for dark arts from the start. I do not think it started after he and Lily went their separate ways. I think the darkness was in him way before that. Now this is not to say he was acting on this at all times; however, I do believe that there were things he did that bothered Lily. He also associated with members of his house that Lily did not approve of and I believe this all led to her rejection of him. Perhaps the reason she stayed so long was because she thought she could change him through her influence. But for better or worse, Snape would not change his ways and it led to the eventual demise of their friendship.

I'd have to agree that Snape didn't likely start out with heavy-duty dark arts. I think at first he may have been interested in the topic without actively performing/engaging in it, but as he became older, he became more and more embroiled in the study and utilization of dark spells. Thus Lily probably witnessed him sinking deeper and deeper into the dark arts. But she probably didn't know about his interest in the beginning since it wouldn't have been something he was seriously engaging in at the time.
But then we have Sirius's comment stating that Snape knew more dark curses than most of the seventh years when he arrived at Hogwarts (not sure of the exact quote). Naturally Sirius would have been biased against Snape, and it's possible he exaggerated or just lied, but I don't see any real reason for it in the context, considering he was just casually mentioning it to Harry as I recall. Also, there isn't anything to really contradict his statement so I generally take it as truth.

I think it's entirely possible that Snape was already rather immersed in the Dark Arts early in his Hogwarts career, and that Lily simply did not believe it was as bad as people made it out to be, and so she made excuses for him against accusations she felt were unfair. Hogwarts is infamous for spreading false tales, and it's likely Lily thought her friends were making up rumours just because they didn't like the oddball Snape. I've seen this behaviour in school more times than I can count. And it's not like Snape would start discussing the dark arts in front of Lily, if he knew she was against them; especially in their earlier years, I would find it hard to believe they'd sit down and have a chat about their morals over the issue.

I think it's entirely possible that Snape was already rather immersed in the Dark Arts early in his Hogwarts career, and that Lily simply did not believe it was as bad as people made it out to be, and so she made excuses for him against accusations she felt were unfairI suppose that's possible. I just wouldn't have thought that he would have been seriously steeped in the Dark Arts at 11 years old, but I really can't know for sure. :) Perhaps the truth of Snape's involvement at that time was somewhere between having an interest and Sirius' statement. I do have a feeling Sirius may have been embellishing things slightly with his statement.

And I do suppose it's possible for Lily to have been unaware of his dark arts involvement in the beginning such that she would have found no basis for accusations such as Sirius's. I agree Snape would likely have kept his dealings with the dark arts from Lily since she didn't like them, and that it would have been easier to do this at the beginning of their friendship.

But in any case, whatever the degree of Snape's involvement in the dark arts was at the start of his friendship with Lily, I'm sure it must have only gotten stronger as time progressed such that Lily would have seen the truth of it and been unable to deny any further accusations at some point. It must have been hard for her to watch a close friend go down the wrong path, especially when that friend turned a blind ear to her warnings.

I suppose that's possible. I just wouldn't have thought that he would have been seriously steeped in the Dark Arts at 11 years old, but I really can't know for sure. :) Perhaps the truth of Snape's involvement at that time was somewhere between having an interest and Sirius' statement. I do have a feeling Sirius may have been embellishing things slightly with his statement.
I do agree that Sirius was embellishing it a bit, because it's a Sirius thing to do (I could make a joke, but I won't). I don't think it was that far from the truth, though; as I see it, Dark Magic's main appeal is power, and we all know Snape craved some sort of power. I could see it coming from a kid who seemed to always be talked down to, to be left in the corner and shunned by others; it wouldn't strike me as odd for him to crave the power Dark Magic provided, without fully understanding the consequences.


But in any case, whatever the degree of Snape's involvement in the dark arts was at the start of his friendship with Lily, I'm sure it must have only gotten stronger as time progressed such that Lily would have seen the truth of it and been unable to deny any further accusations at some point. It must have been hard for her to watch a close friend go down the wrong path, especially when that friend turned a blind ear to her warnings.
Yeah, I think at first she was actually defending him against accusations because she felt they were entirely wrong, and then she started realising her friends were saying the truth, and so she started using excuses, as she put it. She knew what he was doing was wrong but she felt confident he could turn around, like most people feel when their friends go down a bad path. It just eventually got to the point where she couldn't make up excuses anymore. That's how I see it, anyways.

I was sort of disappointed when Lily said she'd been making excuses for Snape for years. If she really was, why bother be his friend at all, all this time? It doesn't really follow. But if she was just angry and didn't mean it, why write it? I assume it was written in order to give the readers ideas, however, I didn't like the idea this line is trying to give. It defies the whole purpose of making them friends - that was supposed to be a big revelation, wasn't it? Snape's reason for turning his whole life around? It's not so big if it never was a genuine friendship though. That's what I think of it.

I think it was a genuine friendship as kids but it deteriorate very fast. It's depressing, but it makes it more realistic to me. Some people in real life do suffer and serve for a love that is not even reciprocated. I like that Snape's and Lily's friendship fell apart because it proves that not all friendships are made of gold and will last for ever.

And I do suppose it's possible for Lily to have been unaware of his dark arts involvement in the beginning such that she would have found no basis for accusations such as Sirius's. I agree Snape would likely have kept his dealings with the dark arts from Lily since she didn't like them, and that it would have been easier to do this at the beginning of their friendship.
I don't see it so much as him keeping the Dark Arts intereset from Lily just that it never really came up when they were together. I think he indulged his interest in the Dark Arts when he was around his Slytherin house mates, but when he was with Lily they talked of and did other things - they were both talented potioneers for example.
I remember when I was at school I was mad on horses and spent all my weekends at the local stables. My school friends weren't interested in horses and my "horsey" friends weren't interested in my school life so I didn't really talk about one when I was with friends from the other. I can see Snape being like this. I don't see "the real Snape" as being the guy who was Lily's friend or the guy who was a Slytherin immersed in the Dark Arts - they are both part of him, but it seems to me that as the years progressed the Dark Arts side of him increased - he became obssessed to the point where it severely effected his relationship with Lily and rather than see this as a warning sign that he was in too deep he continued with his obsession.
I agree with those people who suggest that Snape's obsession with the Dark Arts was like someone becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol. A lot of kids experiment, but they don't all become junkies or alcoholics, and in the same way their friends are likely to make excuses for them at first and only pull back when they realise that they are being dragged down as well.

I think it was a genuine friendship as kids but it deteriorate very fast. It's depressing, but it makes it more realistic to me. Some people in real life do suffer and serve for a love that is not even reciprocated. I like that Snape's and Lily's friendship fell apart because it proves that not all friendships are made of gold and will last for ever.

I agree with what you say about the Lily and Snape friendship. I do think it was a genuine relationship and that neither was pretending. I just think that Lily made allowances for Severus and did not let the dark art interest bother her while it was still new. Maybe she thought it was a phase. Lily does see the good in people so she was probably hoping that the good would prevail. In later years, when he went deeper into the dark arts, Lily can no longer accept it nor believe that the good will prevail and so, she severs the friendship because, imo, she cannot condone what he is into.

I don't see it so much as him keeping the Dark Arts intereset from Lily just that it never really came up when they were together. I think he indulged his interest in the Dark Arts when he was around his Slytherin house mates, but when he was with Lily they talked of and did other things - they were both talented potioneers for example.

I respect your view, however, imo, it was not something that Snape could keep from Lily altogether because of the friends he had who shared his interests. In addition, the "dark arts interests" I refer to includes not only the study of dark arts and inventing dark arts curses, but all of those interests which most budding DEs were displaying, imo, including, a blood superior mentality (calling Muggleborns "Mudblood), using dark arts (against others) and an interest in joining Voldemort. Lily accused Snape of calling others Mudblood which he did not deny (DH-TPT) and indicated that he was hanging with others who were both using dark arts and interested in Voldemort (DH - TPT).

So, imo, Lily did notice these things about Snape, very early on (based on his friendships/friendliness with the other budding death eaters DH-TPT - and his use of the negative term Mudblood, DH-TPT). Imo, Lily would have brought them up herself, because she it was behavior that would be worrisome to her for her friend to engage in. Imo, Snape would do what we were presented with in canon in response; negate that he personally held the views (indicating to him there was no difference between Muggles/Muggleborns and half/pure bloods - DH-TPT); negate that his friends were any worse than those who did not hold dark arts interests (DH-TPT) and/or change the topic (DH-TPT).

Due to Snape's manner of addressing these topics, imo, Snape was hedging when it came to his true beliefs, interest and participation in the total dark arts interests ideology. Imo, that was a means of practicing deception in the form of omission or evasion and it allowed Lily to convince herself that Snape was someone other than who he really was, imo. However, her friends, imo, did not have a friendship with Snape and did not hear the things he said and thus, did not agree with Lily's version of who Snape was based on the excuses she made for him, imo. Imo, Lily suspected all along what she was doing and considered it pretending because she had been deceiving herself about who Snape really was. Imo, that is why she said "I can't pretend anymore" in DH-TPT when she ended the friendship.

Imo, this goes back to my interpretation of the canon of the friendship itself, which was not presented as a happy, healthy, careless friendship, imo, but rather one that showed two people in constant confrontation because of their inherent differences, imo. Again, this does not mean Snape and Lily never had a laugh during the entire 5 or so years they were friends, imo, but imo, it does signify that the entire time, dissention and confrontation was normal to the relationship.

I agree with those people who suggest that Snape's obsession with the Dark Arts was like someone becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol. A lot of kids experiment, but they don't all become junkies or alcoholics, and in the same way their friends are likely to make excuses for them at first and only pull back when they realise that they are being dragged down as well.

I would respectfully disagree because imo, the distinction is that the two ideas generally do not have the same end. An interest in dark arts and acts in Snape and Lily's time, imo, often led to people joining up with Voldemort which had an express purpose: pureblood rule (I refer to the manner in which Snape and others pursued them at that time which was accompanied by all of the things they were doing - not just an academic study of the dark arts.)

Thus, imo, Lily wouldn't solely look at making excuses or attempting to help Snape in terms of something he was doing that was harming himself (although I agree that would be a definite factor), imo, she would also consider that the end of the path that Lily suspected Snape was upon, led to purposefully and intentionally joining a group (DEs) that was deadly to others. Imo, this is a big distinction because imo, it entails combating not only the idea of what Snape believed he would get out of joining (i.e., being impressive, and in a position of power), but also, imo, combating the supremist ideology that those joining the group held which caused them to devalue a certain group of society (Muggles and Muggleborns) to the extent that they were willing to join a man in supressing that group (Voldemort).

Thus, imo, Lily was not merely making excuses for hanging around someone who seemed to have an interest in the dark arts, friends with similar interests and who went about calling others Mudblood; but in addition to that, imo, she had to excuse his behavior in light of her friends saying that Snape hung with a dangerous group that approved of supported and either had joined or planned to join Voldemort, imo. Some like Lucius, LeStranges, etc., were older and others like Regulus were much younger and provided an example of this occuring right before their eyes, imo (especially if the older ones like the LeStranges came back to recruit.)

However, I would agree that my interpretation of Snape and Lily's friendship from the canon, led me to believe that it was not supposed to be seen as a healthy and amiable friendship, but imo, more like one you were speaking of with one friend being an alcoholic or drug user. Thus, imo, I would agree that in that sense, it would be very difficult on Lily in her attempt to draw Snape away from the path he was upon. But imo, the burden upon her would be heavier due to what I have written in the first two paragraphs, imo.

I imagine the 600 'imo''s I have added make it clear this is my opinion :lol: based on my interpretation, but I do appreciate and respect your interpretation as well. :)

WWB - The drugs analogy I would say IMO that at the beginning of their friendship Severus was experimenting with the Dark Arts (sa someone would with drugs) and then he progressed to regularly using the Dark Arts (as someone would with drugs) and had the ultimate goal of becoming a DE (which I would liken to being a supplier as both are harmful to others)

IMO I don't think their friendship was set up to be viewed as healthy of unhealthy - I think Jo just presented us with a friendship and we can each decide how we want to view it.

remember when I was at school I was mad on horses and spent all my weekends at the local stables. My school friends weren't interested in horses and my "horsey" friends weren't interested in my school life so I didn't really talk about one when I was with friends from the other. I can see Snape being like this.That makes sense. It's like a compartmentalization of one's life that just happens naturally. It just would have have been more noticeable to Lily when he started hanging out with people like Mulciber. I like the analogy to an addiction - Snape's dark arts involvement does have similarities.

I remember when I was at school I was mad on horses and spent all my weekends at the local stables. My school friends weren't interested in horses and my "horsey" friends weren't interested in my school life so I didn't really talk about one when I was with friends from the other. I can see Snape being like this.I actually disagree with this analogy. Riding horses is a fine thing, something which I'm sure school friends wouldn't dislike you for. Snape's Death Eater infatuation was viewed very negatively by Lily and she wanted him to stop it. And him hanging out with the Death Eaters affected his relationship with her- it scared her that he wanted to be the one hunting Muggle-borns and supporting Voldemort. The two can't really coexist peacefully alongside one another like yur horse life and school life did, as we saw happen in Snape's life.

IMO. :)

IMO I don't think their friendship was set up to be viewed as healthy of unhealthy - I think Jo just presented us with a friendship and we can each decide how we want to view it.
IMO, if it was a healthy relationship, the story would be vastly different. IMO, if Snape had listened to Lily, got to know her for who she was, and not who he wanted her to be, and if the two did not have such opposing morals and personalities (which are all reasons for me believing that the two of them had an unhealthy friendship), the friendship would have been healthier and therefore may not have ended they way it did.

I remember when I was at school I was mad on horses and spent all my weekends at the local stables. My school friends weren't interested in horses and my "horsey" friends weren't interested in my school life so I didn't really talk about one when I was with friends from the other. I can see Snape being like this.
I don't agree with this analogy as well. If your friends wanted to kill every horse on the planet (death eaters wanting to kill all muggleborns), then the situations might be more similar imo. IMO, Lily wanted to talk to Snape about this, because she hated it, and so Snape could not always avoid it in conversation - he tries in TPT, but eventually Lily had enough of the issue being ignored, and realised he wasn't paying attention to her imo.

DeathlyH and DeliciousMoon - I was only using the horse analogy to explain why I thought Severus wasn't necessarily hiding his love of Dark Arts from Lily - just that they shared different interests to those he shared with his Slytherin house mates. What I mean is that I do not think it was a deliberate deception on his part. I didn't intend the analogy to be taken further than that :)
Lily must have known that Severus was intersted in the Dark Arts but didn't necessarily know what form this interest took until it came to her attention in the form of his friends using Dark magic on one of her friends. Just as my school friends wouldn't have known if my activities with horses were "nice" or not.

In Gof, Sirius says "Snape was always fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school." I think it is one thing to have an interest, but it is another to be famous for it is another. That makes me wonder, what would Snape be doing that would make him famous for being into the Dark Arts?

IMO, if it was a healthy relationship, the story would be vastly different. IMO, if Snape had listened to Lily, got to know her for who she was, and not who he wanted her to be, and if the two did not have such opposing morals and personalities (which are all reasons for me believing that the two of them had an unhealthy friendship), the friendship would have been healthier and therefore may not have ended they way it did.

I am confused about this. What evidence do we have that Snape did not see who Lily was? Or made her into something else? IMO, Snape had no delusions when it came to Lily. He knew and accepted her for exactly who she was. I believe it was himself he could never accept and because of this felt unworthy and wanted to do something to make himself more worthy. Now he was wrong to think that being a DE would help (and perhaps this is what you mean about not knowing Lily) but I think that he did this more for himself than for Lily. Then he somehow deluded himself into believing that Lily would like that. But it was a delusion and perhaps a rationalization but I don't believe he made Lily out to be something else.

In Gof, Sirius says "Snape was always fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school." I think it is one thing to have an interest, but it is another to be famous for it is another. That makes me wonder, what would Snape be doing that would make him famous for being into the Dark Arts?
What I notice about this is that Sirius says he is famous for his fascination with the Dark Arts - not that he was famous for hexing or cursing people, or famous for using the Dark Arts - but famous for being fascinated by the subject. IMO there is quite a difference between having a fascination for something - even a bad something - and practicing that something. Some people are interested in criminolgy, or mass murderers or serial killers - that doesn't mean they are going to kill anyone. I think it is also worth noting that Severus had two years at Hogwarts after he stopped being friends with Lily, and as these were his last years they are the ones more likely to have left a lasting impression on his fellow pupils minds. What they remember of him in first year IMO will be coloured by what happened in subsequent years.

I am confused about this. What evidence do we have that Snape did not see who Lily was?

In the Bloomsbury Chat (2007), JKR said:

"[Snape] wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater."

Imo, if Snape thought Lily would be impressed if he became a real Death Eater and he never really understood Lily's aversion to Mulciber, then I don't believe he could have understood her as a person very well. Imo, it was something she made clear in the one conversation we saw and imo, they had others on the topic. JKR's comment insinuates that, imo, because she says Snape "never" understood, not that he didn't understand because Lily only said it once and didn't make herself plain. These were rather striking attributes of Lily's, imo, so if Snape missed these things, imo, there is a pretty good liklihood that he did not understand or misunderstood her other less striking attributes or things about Lily as well.

You see I don't see it that way Wick - to me you don't have to understand everything about someone to be friends with them. Husbands and wives can be married for years without understanding aspects of each others personalities - it doesn't mean that they don't love and respect each other. My husband has an interest in arms and armaments that I don't get at all - I find them really distasteful, but he finds them interesting - and his interest is completely theoretical - he doesn't own any arms or armaments. However if he did start collecting guns and go around shooting things then I might take exception. The point is that Snape never understood Lily's aversion to the Dark Arts and Mulciber, but it didn't matter until it became an issue between them - specifically when it started to effect Lily and her friends. I certainly don't think that Jo's comment meant that Severus did not see who Lily was, because he understood that she had an aversion - he just didn't understand why. It is like with drugs - some kids dabble - other are totally against drugs in any form. Often those who try them don't understand why the others don't - it doesn't mean they can't be friends.

You see I don't see it that way Wick - to me you don't have to understand everything about someone to be friends with them. Husbands and wives can be married for years without understanding aspects of each others personalities - it doesn't mean that they don't love and respect each other. I certainly don't think that Jo's comment meant that Severus did not see who Lily was, because he understood that she had an aversion - he just didn't understand why. It is like with drugs - some kids dabble - other are totally against drugs in any form. Often those who try them don't understand why the others don't - it doesn't mean they can't be friends.

I agree they were friends. :) I was just pointing out that if Snape believed that Lily would be impressed with him when he became a real death eater, he didn't know her very well, imo.

Even if Snape thought the reason Lily had a crush on James was because he was a Quidditch hero (and thus was impressed by hero/powerful/popular type guys), imo, he was still missing the boat compeltely if he didn't see the distinction Lily would make between being a Quidditch star and being a Death Eater.

I agree they were friends. :) I was just pointing out that if Snape believed that Lily would be impressed with him when he became a real death eater, he didn't know her very well, imo.

Even if Snape thought the reason Lily had a crush on James was because he was a Quidditch hero (and thus was impressed by hero/powerful/popular type guys), imo, he was still missing the boat compeltely if he didn't see the distinction Lily would make between being a Quidditch star and being a Death Eater.

Yes, I agree Snape really did miss the point, but I think part of the reason is that he didn’t think ‘I’ll be a death eater that will impress Lily’. I always had the impression that he thought that if he were impressive then Lily would like him more. He then started to think about what was really impressive, not about what would really impress Lily, which is where he made the big mistake imo, :sigh: because he thought about what impressed him not Lily. Which is why I think then never understood why Lily was not impressed, of course that’s how I look at it!

:tu: I really like Cathy’s analogy about having different friends with whom you do different things – it’s pretty much how it seemed to me.

However, I would agree that my interpretation of Snape and Lily's friendship from the canon, led me to believe that it was not supposed to be seen as a healthy and amiable friendship, but imo, more like one you were speaking of with one friend being an alcoholic or drug user. Thus, imo, I would agree that in that sense, it would be very difficult on Lily in her attempt to draw Snape away from the path he was upon. But imo, the burden upon her would be heavier due to what I have written in the first two paragraphs, imo.

I agree. I agree with the entire post - excellent post all around :tu: - but I'm only quoting this part to save space. :)

I think Jo did a good job in showing how unhealthy this friendship was overall. I feel this whole thing is an excellent example of the "bad boy syndrome" with Lily convincing herself that she could change Snape for the better - and I do think she did her best in that regard - but she eventually realized that you can't change people - they have to want to change themselves. And that is a very important lesson in life.

Personally, I found this to be disappointing - particularly after Jo had emphasized how disturbing she found the "bad boy syndrome" and warned people against it. I found it strange that, after saying that, she turned around and had Lily fall victim to it. Although, she did show that it happened when Lily was young and naive and there is a benefit to that with Lily learning that life lesson because it made her a stronger person. One of the hardest things a person can do in life is to accept that there is nothing they can do but walk away from a bad situation. As difficult as such decisions are, they do typically come with important life lessons that make you a stronger/better person overall.

IMO, if it was a healthy relationship, the story would be vastly different. IMO, if Snape had listened to Lily, got to know her for who she was, and not who he wanted her to be, and if the two did not have such opposing morals and personalities (which are all reasons for me believing that the two of them had an unhealthy friendship), the friendship would have been healthier and therefore may not have ended they way it did.

Exactly. :agree:

I don't agree with this analogy as well. If your friends wanted to kill every horse on the planet (death eaters wanting to kill all muggleborns), then the situations might be more similar imo. IMO, Lily wanted to talk to Snape about this, because she hated it, and so Snape could not always avoid it in conversation - he tries in TPT, but eventually Lily had enough of the issue being ignored, and realised he wasn't paying attention to her imo.

I agree. It's one thing for friends to have varying interests like horses, sports, reading, etc... It's a completely different matter for two people who have completely opposing personalities, morals, values, and beliefs to try and maintain any kind of friendship. Snape willingly chose a path that not only went against everything Lily valued and believed in, it also went against Lily herself because she was a muggleborn witch. As much as Snape wanted to have both - per Jo - there was simply no way for becoming a Death Eater and being friends with a muggleborn witch to mesh because they were completely opposing ideals.

In Gof, Sirius says "Snape was always fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school." I think it is one thing to have an interest, but it is another to be famous for it is another. That makes me wonder, what would Snape be doing that would make him famous for being into the Dark Arts?

Exactly. One does not become famous because they are fascinated by something, IMO. They become famous for doing it - in this case, using the Dark Arts. Sirius also reveals that Snape knew more curses than half the seventh years when he arrived at Hogwarts in his first year (GOF, pg 531, US version). There was never anything presented in the books to contradict that statement so it is most likely that Sirius is telling the truth here. There is only only one logical conclusion to be drawn from that, IMO, because there is only one way that Sirius could have known that Snape knew all those curses in his first year. Snape had to actually be using those curses in his first year - and it is most likely that he was using them against other students. On top of that - as we learn in HBP - Snape was inventing his own Dark Arts curses.

In the Bloomsbury Chat (2007), JKR said:

"[Snape] wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater."

Imo, if Snape thought Lily would be impressed if he became a real Death Eater and he never really understood Lily's aversion to Mulciber, then I don't believe he could have understood her as a person very well. Imo, it was something she made clear in the one conversation we saw and imo, they had others on the topic. JKR's comment insinuates that, imo, because she says Snape "never" understood, not that he didn't understand because Lily only said it once and didn't make herself plain. These were rather striking attributes of Lily's, imo, so if Snape missed these things, imo, there is a pretty good liklihood that he did not understand or misunderstood her other less striking attributes or things about Lily as well.

Completely agree. :agree: I think the text makes it clear that Snape did not really know or understand Lily at all - not for who she really was. He appears to have created this image of her - the kind of person he wanted her to be - and that's all he was able to see. We also see him do this with Harry as an adult and Dumbledore calls him on being unable to see Harry for who he really is.

“— mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent —”

“You see what you expect to see, Severus,” said Dumbledore, without raising his eyes from a copy of Transfiguration Today. “Other teachers report that the boy is modest, likable, and reasonably talented. Personally, I find him an engaging child.”

This would appear to be an ongoing issue for Snape throughout his life - he sees what he expects to see and is unable to see people for who they really are - at least with certain people. With Lily, he expected to see someone who would always agree with him no matter what. He was never able to understand Lily's aversion to the Dark Arts and his association with people who practiced the Dark Arts - per Jo. When she disagreed with him and tried to explain, he questioned her friendship rather than try to understand why she was so upset about all of that. (DH, pg 673, US) He expected to see someone who would be impressed if he became a Death Eater - per Jo. He was unable to see that she would not be impressed by that at all and that the idea frightened and repulsed her. He expected to see someone who would be selfish and put their own life ahead of their child's life. (DH, pg 677, US) And this is probably the biggest example of how Snape did not understand Lily. He actually believed that she would accept Voldemort's offer to live and step aside while her child was murdered. That alone was enough to convince me that Snape did not truly know or understand Lily at all - that he cared for an image he created in his mind of the person he thought she should be.

I feel this whole thing is an excellent example of the "bad boy syndrome" with Lily convincing herself that she could change Snape for the better - and I do think she did her best in that regard - but she eventually realized that you can't change people - they have to want to change themselves.

The "bad boy syndrome" is romantically tinged. It's usually used to describe crushes. You can't believe Lily never had the remotest romantic interest in Severus AND had a "bad boy syndrome" with him. It's either one or the other.

I agree. It's one thing for friends to have varying interests like horses, sports, reading, etc... It's a completely different matter for two people who have completely opposing personalities, morals, values, and beliefs to try and maintain any kind of friendship. Snape willingly chose a path that not only went against everything Lily valued and believed in, it also went against Lily herself because she was a muggleborn witch. As much as Snape wanted to have both - per Jo - there was simply no way for becoming a Death Eater and being friends with a muggleborn witch to mesh because they were completely opposing ideals.

:hmm: But didn’t JKR say that if Snape had not been so interested in DA that Lily may have become romantically interested in him? To me this implies that they had a reasonable amount in common but this thing, his interested in the Dark Arts, caused the rupture. I just don’t see the possibility of romantic interest developing if they had nothing in common, surely if that were the case JKR would just have said ‘no – that would never happen’


:tu: Yoana - fair point

I always had the impression that he thought that if he were impressive then Lily would like him more. He then started to think about what was really impressive, not about what would really impress Lily, which is where he made the big mistake imo, because he thought about what impressed him not Lily. Which is why I think then never understood why Lily was not impressed, of course that’s how I look at it!That's a plausible scenario. Another possibility that I consider is that it was just something he told himself in order to justify continuing his fascination with the dark arts. Being completely unwilling to give up the dark arts and his pre-death eater friends, he may have told himself over and over that Lily would be impressed, and thus ended up making himself believe it. A denial mechanism, if you will.

This would appear to be an ongoing issue for Snape throughout his life - he sees what he expects to see and is unable to see people for who they really are - at least with certain people. With Lily, he expected to see someone who would always agree with him no matter what. He was never able to understand Lily's aversion to the Dark Arts and his association with people who practiced the Dark Arts - per Jo. When she disagreed with him and tried to explain, he questioned her friendship rather than try to understand why she was so upset about all of that. (DH, pg 673, US) He expected to see someone who would be impressed if he became a Death Eater - per Jo. He was unable to see that she would not be impressed by that at all and that the idea frightened and repulsed her.

He expected to see someone who would be selfish and put their own life ahead of their child's life. (DH, pg 677, US) And this is probably the biggest example of how Snape did not understand Lily. He actually believed that she would accept Voldemort's offer to live and step aside while her child was murdered. That alone was enough to convince me that Snape did not truly know or understand Lily at all - that he cared for an image he created in his mind of the person he thought she should be.


I agree. One of the greatest difficulties I had understanding Snape's view of Lily based on his old friendship was that he did things that were, imo, contrary to what I felt a person would do, who loved their old friend and moreso, who had romantic feelings for that person. In my opinion, this affected their friendship as you have mentioned and Snape's turn to the good side, because his view of Lily, imo, was quite in contrast to her character and personality as shown in canon.

Imo, Snape should have realized that Lily would fight to the death for her son's life, even if Voldemort told her she could live. What is more, if Voldemort had killed Harry, Lily would have fought to the death for her husband's life, imo and in the name of her child who had passed away. Imo, Lily had the character and personality to become a fighting Order member and indeed became one, and imo, she showed signs of that in Memory #5 when she stood up to Snape, her friend, and confronted his views; in SWM Memory when she defended him, imo; and in the Memory where they ended the friendship and she stuck to her guns, imo.

Imo, Snape should have realized that Lily would not be understanding or approve of the way he treated her son or spoke about her husband once she had passed away. Imo, she showed this in Memory #5 by her responses when Snape was saying negative things about Remus and James, and her response to Mulciber's treatment of Mary.

Imo, Snape did not understand these things about Lily and imo, he never came to see them and imo, that would signify that he had created an image of Lily that perhaps evolved over time, but never captured the essence of who she was. Imo, this was shown in the "Silver Doe" chapter in DH, when Snape issued is doe and while "pure" in the sense of a patronus and from Snape's happy heart, imo, it only grasped Snape's image of Lily he'd created, which imo, contained some of who she was (her kindness and compassion), that seemed familiar to her son, but unrecognizable as pertaining to her because it was missing her essence, imo. So her son considered trickery and dark magic might be involved, even while his mind insisted it was of pure origin, imo. Imo, this was also shown in that there is no canon to evidence that Snape stopped feeling romantic emotions for Lily, yet he adopted Dumbledore's plan in the end to send Harry to his death - which imo, Snape should have known would be contrary to her deepest desire (she had died to save her son, so imo, it would be).

However, imo, like during their friendship, Snape fashioned Lily in his mind as a person who would approve of all of his above beliefs, actions and behavior, based on his view, imo. Thus, I too was quite disappointed in the overall outcome because, I would have liked to have seen Snape have a real recognition of who Lily was and come to appreciate and act on that (which he did not, imo) - or reject/lose his romantic emotions for Lily, place his own above any residual feelings he had for Lily as a friend, and move forward accordingly (which he also did not, imo). Imo, Snape's not doing either, and behaving, and speaking in the above mentioned manner, presumably in Lily's honor throughout his life, belittled the friendship his emotions were based upon, and thereby belittled Lily as well, imo.

The fact that Snape bravely spied on Voldemort, initially to help protect Harry and presumably in Lily's honor; and carried out other honrable acts for Dumbledore over the years, presumably in Lily's honor, imo, was tainted by the fact that Snape was honoring his vision of Lily, imo, and did nothing toward correcting the things I discussed above, imo. Thus, even in these things, imo, Snape was not wholly honoring Lily, imo. However, imo, I believe one could make a good argument that Snape honestly believed he was, from his point of view - based on his view of Lily.

Personally, I found this to be disappointing - particularly after Jo had emphasized how disturbing she found the "bad boy syndrome" and warned people against it. I found it strange that, after saying that, she turned around and had Lily fall victim to it. Although, she did show that it happened when Lily was young and naive and there is a benefit to that with Lily learning that life lesson because it made her a stronger person. One of the hardest things a person can do in life is to accept that there is nothing they can do but walk away from a bad situation. As difficult as such decisions are, they do typically come with important life lessons that make you a stronger/better person overall.

I would respectfully disagree that it was the classic 'bad boy' syndrome, because imo, generally the individual suffering from it is either romantically besotten or deeply approving of the 'bad boy'. Imo, Lily was neither. Imo, it was a case where Snape was not altogether forthcoming and Lily convinced herself that he could be someone he was not, by working through his dark arts interests and acts issues. Imo, this was shown by Snape not transforming into a person that Lily could call a friend (which is why she ended the relationship) and further, Snape never did transform in that regard throughout his life, imo, even though he retained his emotions for her. However, I appreciate what I believe to be your underlying point and I agree that Lily should have likely recognized what was happening sooner and ended the friendship earlier (imo). :)

He expected to see someone who would be selfish and put their own life ahead of their child's life. (DH, pg 677, US) And this is probably the biggest example of how Snape did not understand Lily. He actually believed that she would accept Voldemort's offer to live and step aside while her child was murdered. That alone was enough to convince me that Snape did not truly know or understand Lily at all - that he cared for an image he created in his mind of the person he thought she should be.But canon shows us that Snape did not beleive that Lily would step aside and allow Voldemort to kill her child. If he had believed that he would have no reason to go to Dumbledore. Voldemort had agreed to spare Lily - I can only presume as a reward for Severus bringing him the prophecy - and Voldemort does give Lily the chance to live. However as you point out she does not take it, and Severus must have known she would not take it as he went to Dumbledore to ask him to protect Lily as well. This would not have been necessary if Severus believed she would step aside and allow Vodlemort to kill her son.

Another possibility that I consider is that it was just something he told himself in order to justify continuing his fascination with the dark arts. Being completely unwilling to give up the dark arts and his pre-death eater friends, he may have told himself over and over that Lily would be impressed, and thus ended up making himself believe it. A denial mechanism, if you will.
:agree: Exactly! I think Tonks put it well earlier in the thread when she said he rationalised it - effectively lying to himself that he could have it all.

I agree. One of the greatest difficulties I had understanding Snape's view of Lily based on his old friendship was that he did things that were, imo, contrary to what I felt a person would do, who loved their old friend and moreso, who had romantic feelings for that person. In my opinion, this affected their friendship as you have mentioned and Snape's turn to the good side, because his view of Lily, imo, was quite in contrast to her character and personality as shown in canon.

Imo, Snape should have realized that Lily would fight to the death for her son's life, even if Voldemort told her she could live. What is more, if Voldemort had killed Harry, Lily would have fought to the death for her husband's life, imo and in the name of her child who had passed away. Imo, Lily had the character and personality to become a fighting Order member and indeed became one, and imo, she showed signs of that in Memory #5 when she stood up to Snape, her friend, and confronted his views; in SWM Memory when she defended him, imo; and in the Memory where they ended the friendship and she stuck to her guns, imo.

Imo, Snape should have realized that Lily would not be understanding or approve of the way he treated her son or spoke about her husband once she had passed away. Imo, she showed this in Memory #5 by her responses when Snape was saying negative things about Remus and James, and her response to Mulciber's treatment of Mary.

Imo, Snape did not understand these things about Lily and imo, he never came to see them and imo, that would signify that he had created an image of Lily that perhaps evolved over time, but never captured the essence of who she was. Imo, this was shown in the "Silver Doe" chapter in DH, when Snape issued is doe and while "pure" in the sense of a patronus and from Snape's happy heart, imo, it only grasped Snape's image of Lily he'd created, which imo, contained some of who she was (her kindness and compassion), that seemed familiar to her son, but unrecognizable as pertaining to her because it was missing her essence, imo. So her son considered trickery and dark magic might be involved, even while his mind insisted it was of pure origin, imo. Imo, this was also shown in that there is no canon to evidence that Snape stopped feeling romantic emotions for Lily, yet he adopted Dumbledore's plan in the end to send Harry to his death - which imo, Snape should have known would be contrary to her deepest desire (she had died to save her son, so imo, it would be).

However, imo, like during their friendship, Snape fashioned Lily in his mind as a person who would approve of all of his above beliefs, actions and behavior, based on his view, imo. Thus, I too was quite disappointed in the overall outcome because, I would have liked to have seen Snape have a real recognition of who Lily was and come to appreciate and act on that (which he did not, imo) - or reject/lose his romantic emotions for Lily, place his own above any residual feelings he had for Lily as a friend, and move forward accordingly (which he also did not, imo). Imo, Snape's not doing either, and behaving, and speaking in the above mentioned manner, presumably in Lily's honor throughout his life, belittled the friendship his emotions were based upon, and thereby belittled Lily as well, imo.

The fact that Snape bravely spied on Voldemort, initially to help protect Harry and presumably in Lily's honor; and carried out other honrable acts for Dumbledore over the years, presumably in Lily's honor, imo, was tainted by the fact that Snape was honoring his vision of Lily, imo, and did nothing toward correcting the things I discussed above, imo. Thus, even in these things, imo, Snape was not wholly honoring Lily, imo. However, imo, I believe one could make a good argument that Snape honestly believed he was, from his point of view - based on his view of Lily.

Excellent post :tu: I agree with everything you said. This is exactly why I have trouble believing that Snape knew the true Lily. IMO, he created a false image of her - she was, in his mind, who he wanted her to be imo. However I don't think Snape was aware of this; I think he was blinded by this false image.

But canon shows us that Snape did not beleive that Lily would step aside and allow Voldemort to kill her child. If he had believed that he would have no reason to go to Dumbledore. Voldemort had agreed to spare Lily - I can only presume as a reward for Severus bringing him the prophecy - and Voldemort does give Lily the chance to live. However as you point out she does not take it, and Severus must have known she would not take it as he went to Dumbledore to ask him to protect Lily as well. This would not have been necessary if Severus believed she would step aside and allow Vodlemort to kill her son.
I thought it was because Snape didn't fully trust Voldemort in his promise... Or am I just remembering incorrectly? :p

You see I don't see it that way Wick - to me you don't have to understand everything about someone to be friends with them. Husbands and wives can be married for years without understanding aspects of each others personalities - it doesn't mean that they don't love and respect each other. My husband has an interest in arms and armaments that I don't get at all - I find them really distasteful, but he finds them interesting - and his interest is completely theoretical - he doesn't own any arms or armaments. However if he did start collecting guns and go around shooting things then I might take exception. The point is that Snape never understood Lily's aversion to the Dark Arts and Mulciber, but it didn't matter until it became an issue between them - specifically when it started to effect Lily and her friends. I certainly don't think that Jo's comment meant that Severus did not see who Lily was, because he understood that she had an aversion - he just didn't understand why. It is like with drugs - some kids dabble - other are totally against drugs in any form. Often those who try them don't understand why the others don't - it doesn't mean they can't be friends.

I agree with you on this so much! IMO, understanding a person is seeing who they are and acknowledging that. In this case, JKR says his did not understand her aversion but that does not me (to me) that he does not understand her. It is just this one aspect of her that he cannot grasp. This is not to say that he doesn't understand who Lily is, he just has a hard time dealing with this aspect because he is so attuned to the dark arts that he does not understand how someone cannot be.

I agree with you on this so much! IMO, understanding a person is seeing who they are and acknowledging that. In this case, JKR says his did not understand her aversion but that does not me (to me) that he does not understand her. It is just this one aspect of her that he cannot grasp. This is not to say that he doesn't understand who Lily is, he just has a hard time dealing with this aspect because he is so attuned to the dark arts that he does not understand how someone cannot be.

I would respectfully disagree because JKR didn't only say that Snape didn't understand Lily's aversion to his friends, but also that he believed she would be impressed if he became a real Death Eater (see above quote).

Imo, Snape understanding that Lily detested Mulciber (she said this in DH-TPT), but not understanding why, means that he did not understand it was because they were interested in dark arts and acts and possibly planning to join Voldemort. Imo, that means Snape felt those things were fine and did not understand why Lily did not share his view. That imo, means he did not understand something fundamental to her belief system, her outlook and her viewpoint. This leads me to wonder if Snape understood that Lily also did not like his friends because they went about calling people Mudblood; in DH-TPT, Lily indicated Snape did this too and imo, he also felt that was fine - but, imo, it is difficult to imagine he would think Lily believed it was fine considering she was a Muggleborn. However, it may be that when Snape called Lily a Mudblood, he didn't think she would take offense because he felt it was fine behavior and only when she turned and called him Snivellus and advised him to wash his undergarments did he realize that she was offended by that.

Imo, Snape believing that Lily would be impressed if he became a real Death Eater indicates that he misjudged Lily as a girl that was impressed by those in powerful positions in general, when imo, she merely admired them if that position itself was also admirable. Imo, Snape also misjudged her in that he felt that she would see being a Death Eater as something admirable. Imo, this shows that Snape did not understand Lily's funadmental beliefs, outlook and point of view as I mentioned above, but in addition, he did not understand her reasoning. That is, imo, he did not understand that she remained his friend because she believed that he would stop thinking, saying and doing the things he did that were relevant to the entire dark arts mentality/behavior. Imo, this is because no matter what else Lily might see in Snape that made him worthy of her friendship (in her opinion), those things would bar the friendship, as they ended up doing.

Imo, Snape believing that Lily would be impressed if he became a real Death Eater indicates that he misjudged Lily as a girl that was impressed by those in powerful positions in general, when imo, she merely admired them if that position itself was also admirable.
The thing is thought that I find this scenario very true to life. Some men have very strange ideas about what will impress women and often these are based in the reality of their parents relationship. My husband for example thinks I will be happy if he agrees with me when I actually want to know what he thinks about something - but this is because that is what his Mum and Dad were like! It doesn't mean he doesn't know or undestand me just that this has been wired into his psyche from a young age anbd takes an effort for him to overcome. In the same way Severus's parents were always fighting and his father bullied his mother but his mother stayed with his father. What this is telling young Severus is that power and intimidation gets the girl; that if he becomes powerful and impressive then Lily will stay with him. I think this is why he felt anxiety about James - because James's behaviour was intimidating to others - :lol: I am now having to rethink my view that Severus was never jealous or envious of James - he might well have been envious of his ability to bully others, which is why Severus hated that aspect of James's character so much. I'm going to have to think about this some more.

WWB - I completely understand how it would seem he doesn't know her at all. But imo, it is just an aspect of her he is missing. It is something he is hoping would impress her. It is as if he knows her well enough to know but rationalizes this with himself and convinces himself that this would impress her. He believes it yes, but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand her, imo.

Cathy - I love your idea that the behavior is ingrained. I never looked at what he learned from his homelife, but it seems highly probable.

Severus's parents were always fighting and his father bullied his mother but his mother stayed with his father. What this is telling young Severus is that power and intimidation gets the girl; that if he becomes powerful and impressive then Lily will stay with him.

Imo, if this is what Snape was thinking, then it only proves that he did not understand Lily because it shows he believed she was like his mother and apparently, she was not.

I think this is why he felt anxiety about James - because James's behaviour was intimidating to others - :lol: I am now having to rethink my view that Severus was never jealous or envious of James - he might well have been envious of his ability to bully others, which is why Severus hated that aspect of James's character so much. I'm going to have to think about this some more.

Be that as it may, imo, Snape's misunderstanding of how Lily regarded James would serve as another example of how Snape didn't understand Lily. Imo, there is amble evidence in canon that Snape did not understand or know Lily for who she really was. This is not to say that he didn't know her at all, merely that he didn't "get her" when it came to her fundamental beliefs, attitudes, outlook and viewpoints, imo. Those things, imo, are essential to truly understanding a person and knowing the "real" individual.

For example, imo, Lily being Muggleborn is a tremendous clue in and of it self that she would not be impressed with anyone who joined a group that had the main purpose of subjugating Muggleborns. That should have been obvious to Snape, imo, without Lily having to say a word. Moreover, because Lily was not going around calling Muggleborns "Mudblood" and/or treating them disrespectfully, there would be no indication to Snape that she felt otherwise and that she would be impressed by someone who did those things, imo. In an analogy, James was not as good a friend of Lily's as Snape purportedly was, and yet, he understood Lily in this way, imo. He said "I would never call you a you-know-what-" Indicating not only his feelings on the topic, but also showing an understanding that a Muggleborn would not be impressed by someone calling them, or others like them, a "Mudblood" and relegating them to an inferior status.

Well, you see, as Rowling has said, this was the main element that tore Snape and Lily apart forever. Snape's desire to join the death eaters.

[staff edit] He always swells to Malfoy's comments about him in class. I think growing up with an abusive father and parents who are always fighting, would have been a major blow to his self esteem and his self image. It left him damaged and venerable. Of course when a boy like this reaches school, he's going to seek to be accepted and maybe respected.

I personally believe Snape joining the death eaters had very little to do with Lily. People try to make it seem like everything Snape ever did was for her but Snape is his own man too and has his own ideas and ambitions. As we can see from the very moment Snape is sorted into Slytherin, Lucius Malfoy accepts him and shows him respect. This is the beginning of a slow but sure indoctrination into the death eater camp. Also, we cannot disclude Eileen Prince either. I think she was into the dark arts and may have raised and taught Snape to use these to defend himself.

No, I think Snape joined the death eaters for his own desire for power and respect and his own ideas of enslaving muggles (his own father being a muggle and accounting for the reason he was always afraid and fragile). [staff edit]

As we have glimpsed in the canon, Snape is an easily flattered man and always seeks authority and respect/fear. He always swells to Malfoy's comments about him in class.

I honestly always take that with a pinch of salt. I'm not denying that Adult Snape isn't entirely averse to flattery but I also suspect that he exploits Draco's 'teacher's pet' act for strategic reasons, because of his position as double agent. But that's a discussion for the Snape character thread. :)

I think growing up with an abusive father and parents who are always fighting, would have been a major blow to his self esteem and his self image. It left him damaged and venerable. Of course when a boy like this reaches school, he's going to seek to be accepted and maybe respected.

This I totally agree with.

I personally believe Snape joining the death eaters had very little to do with Lily. People try to make it seem like everything Snape ever did was for her but Snape is his own man too and has his own ideas and ambitions. As we can see from the very moment Snape is sorted into Slytherin, Lucius Malfoy accepts him and shows him respect. This is the beginning of a slow but sure indoctrination into the death eater camp. Also, we cannot disclude Eileen Prince either. I think she was into the dark arts and may have raised and taught Snape to use these to defend himself.

No, I think Snape joined the death eaters for his own desire for power and respect and his own ideas of enslaving muggles (his own father being a muggle and accounting for the reason he was always afraid and fragile). Snape had a lust for respect and maybe even what he mistaken for love. He finally belonged. The fact that Snape claims to himself that he is doing all of this for Lily is just icing on the cake. He's deluding himself and justifying his mad power trip to himself, pretending to himself that Lily will respect him. Snape's ambition blinded him and provided him an illusion to justify his actions.

Excellent analysis, MoD, I think you are really onto something there. :agree:

I take your view that 'doing it all for Lily' is merely the icing on the cake. I do believe that teenage Severus loved Lily, with a hopeless sort of love ... but his love for her was divorced from his Death Eater ambitions. Hence this huge disconnect in his mind and of course the huge gap between Lily's worldview and his that drove the wedge between them.

It was this ambition (like many relationships), this ambition for power and glory is what drove Snape and Lily apart when their friendship was already waning.

Yep, I think that's it in a nutshell.

Imo, if this is what Snape was thinking, then it only proves that he did not understand Lily because it shows he believed she was like his mother and apparently, she was not.
I am not saying that it something that he was consciously thinking but that his fundamental understanding of how relationships worked was based on his parents relationship and that was dysfunctional. This is something that happens at a very deep level and is not a conscious decision. He didn't have to believe that Lily was like his mother because his parents relationship was his model for a heterosexual romantic relationship - he believe that that was what women wanted. He probably believed that women want their men to be masterful and in control. It is similar to the phenomenon where women with abusive fathers choose abusive men for their relationships. It is not that they want to be abused but that at a very deep level they subconsciously recognise those traits in men and are drawn to those men by the familiarity of their behaviour - I'm not explaining it very well, but it is something that happens in real life. Psychologically people are far from straight forward and the "logic" behind people's motives and behaviours is rarely linear and straight forward.

Excellent post MoD! :tu: You summed it up brilliantly!

I am not saying that it something that he was consciously thinking but that his fundamental understanding of how relationships worked was based on his parents relationship and that was dysfunctional. This is something that happens at a very deep level and is not a conscious decision. He didn't have to believe that Lily was like his mother because his parents relationship was his model for a heterosexual romantic relationship - he believe that that was what women wanted. He probably believed that women want their men to be masterful and in control. It is similar to the phenomenon where women with abusive fathers choose abusive men for their relationships. It is not that they want to be abused but that at a very deep level they subconsciously recognise those traits in men and are drawn to those men by the familiarity of their behaviour - I'm not explaining it very well, but it is something that happens in real life. Psychologically people are far from straight forward and the "logic" behind people's motives and behaviours is rarely linear and straight forward

I respect your view, but I do not see how this explains how Snape knew or understood Lily on a basic level associated with her belief system, values and outlook. Snape thought Lily would be impressed by his becoming a real Death Eater; JKR said that was his belief - not his subconscious motivation. Imo, if Snape believed that, he didn't know what would really impress Lily, thus he didn't really understand or know her relative to the ways I mentioned, imo. We can agree to disagree if you like, but that is my viewpoint on this. :)

No, I think Snape joined the death eaters for his own desire for power and respect and his own ideas of enslaving muggles (his own father being a muggle and accounting for the reason he was always afraid and fragile). Snape had a lust for respect and maybe even what he mistaken for love. He finally belonged. The fact that Snape claims to himself that he is doing all of this for Lily is just icing on the cake. He's deluding himself and justifying his mad power trip to himself, pretending to himself that Lily will respect him. Snape's ambition blinded him and provided him an illusion to justify his actions.

I agree; imo, this was happening in the memories and all throughout the series. Snape not only did not understand Lily, imo, but he had no desire to understand Lily. Snape believed that joining the DEs would impress Lily; however once she was dead, that did not end, imo - he knew about the afterworld just as he knew about ghosts who chose not to go there. Snape still claimed to love her, but imo, behaved in a manner which included mistreating her child, bad mouthing her husband and treating others in a negative manner - which imo, means he did not truly love the woman "Lily" at all, but some version of her he'd created and who would not suffer in the afterworld from his doing these things. Indeed, Snape may have felt that these things would impress Lily as he had believed being a real death eater would, imo.

Snape's direct collusion with Voldemort, resulted in killing Lily and James and it is suggested that he spent the rest of his life making up for that. However, Snape's above negative actions were not indicative of making up for that and he engaged in those things far longer and far more frequently than the time he spent spying on Voldemort. Imo, Snape's treatment of Harry and belittling of James before him served to undo the good he was attempting to achieve because he was adding more damage to a situation he had helped damage in the first place (Harry's life as an orphan) - and another consideration is what Snape was saying about Lily herself: his speaking of James in a constantly degrading manner was also saying that Lily would love, marry and be the soulmate of a man of the negative character he indicated James had, imo. Imo, that is akin to saying Lily was either equally terrible or a tremendously unintelligent person.

Imo, those things were not merely respresentative of Snape behaving in a petty manner, but in a despicable manner. Thus, imo, Lily would not have been impressed with Snape at any point in his life in an overall sense, although she would likely find that Snape rejecting Voldemort and not dying via his spying attempts as impressive things in general, imo. The canon did not make it clear whether Snape saw things this way or not, imo, but either way, imo, Snape never grew to understand who Lily really was. I would agree that initially it was blind ambition and imo, that might have been the problem throughout his life.

I personally believe Snape joining the death eaters had very little to do with Lily. People try to make it seem like everything Snape ever did was for her but Snape is his own man too and has his own ideas and ambitions. As we can see from the very moment Snape is sorted into Slytherin, Lucius Malfoy accepts him and shows him respect. This is the beginning of a slow but sure indoctrination into the death eater camp. Also, we cannot disclude Eileen Prince either. I think she was into the dark arts and may have raised and taught Snape to use these to defend himself.

No, I think Snape joined the death eaters for his own desire for power and respect and his own ideas of enslaving muggles (his own father being a muggle and accounting for the reason he was always afraid and fragile). [staff edit]
I agree. I think a lot of what attracted Snape to the Death Eaters had nothing to do with Lily at all. IMO, he agreed with the prejudice and had his own ideas of enslaving muggles and wanted to participate in the group because of his own interests, beliefs, and aspirations. I think a desire for power and respect was very high on the list as well. I agree with WWB in that Snape did not understand, nor cared much about understanding Lily for who she really was. I think he believed that Lily was impressed by people in a position of power and respect (imo, he thought this was the reason Lily was attracted to James), and imo this was wrong and Lily valued other things in people. However I think he held onto the idea without really looking at Lily and listening to her when she contradicted these things, because he knew he could be a death eater, and he knew that with it came power. If Lily was impressed by that, then it would have been easy.

IMO, he agreed with the prejudice and had his own ideas of enslaving muggles

I'd like to see canon pointing at Snape wanting to enslave muggles.

I think he believed that Lily was impressed by people in a position of power and respect (imo, he thought this was the reason Lily was attracted to James), and imo this was wrong and Lily valued other things in people.

Or maybe, like every teenage boy, he was just desparate to make himself a noticeable male for the girl he was in love with. I doubt he sat and pondered over what Lily values in people and planned his actions around that. He acted instinctively, like all teenagers do, in wanting to impress Lily. He probably thought anything big an impressive would do. That's very common in teenage boys, I've noticed.

I think that snape was just in love with lily and tried to impress her and win her over so she would like him, also i think that he knew that lily liked james as they grew up and was jelous towards james an did not like him at all as when the dark lord went after the potters he only asked for lilys life to be spared.
Also his potronus was a doe the same as lilys which tells us even after she had died he still had undying love for her.

Well, you see, as Rowling has said, this was the main element that tore Snape and Lily apart forever. Snape's desire to join the death eaters.

[staff edit] He always swells to Malfoy's comments about him in class. I think growing up with an abusive father and parents who are always fighting, would have been a major blow to his self esteem and his self image. It left him damaged and venerable. Of course when a boy like this reaches school, he's going to seek to be accepted and maybe respected.

I think Snape's pretty polite to all Slytherins and he's mostly careful of how he interacts with them. I think most of it is an act for his other role as a spy.

I agree Snape was a vulnerable boy who had a poor home life. But I don't know about Snape wanting to be accepted by everyone in School, like say, Remus was. Snape's a lot more confident about himself; he is not the type to try to be in the good books of everyone. I just cannot see him trying to please everyone and going out of his way to be accepted by one and all. The main reason for this I think is, he already has Lily's friendship from before he came to Hogwarts that satisfies him so much, I think other friendships or general acceptance don't matter. That was why I think Snape was completely lost when Lily broke off with him, he did not know what to do and that may have pushed him into hanging on to Avery and Mulciber more IMO.

I personally believe Snape joining the death eaters had very little to do with Lily. People try to make it seem like everything Snape ever did was for her but Snape is his own man too and has his own ideas and ambitions. As we can see from the very moment Snape is sorted into Slytherin, Lucius Malfoy accepts him and shows him respect. This is the beginning of a slow but sure indoctrination into the death eater camp. Also, we cannot disclude Eileen Prince either. I think she was into the dark arts and may have raised and taught Snape to use these to defend himself.

I don't think Eileen was into the dark arts; if she was, I don't think she would have put up with her muggle husband's abuse.

But I think you have a point about Lucius's acceptance and a kind of a slow indoctrination where Snape would have been told about the power and status and the glory of serving Voldemort. But if Lucius's acceptance and guidance was present from day one, then I think Lily would have known about that too, because they were very friendly IMO at that time.

No, I think Snape joined the death eaters for his own desire for power and respect and his own ideas of enslaving muggles (his own father being a muggle and accounting for the reason he was always afraid and fragile). [staff edit]

I respectfully disagree with you. While I think Snape in those days did not care a lot for the muggles, because of his bad experience (father) with them, I don;t think he was planning to enslave them. I agree with Yoana, I don't think there is anything in canon to suggest this. :)

I don't think Eileen was into the dark arts; if she was, I don't think she would have put up with her muggle husband's abuse.

Gosh, that's a good point. :lol: But of course she was bound by the statute of secrecy, wasn't she? She can't injure her Muggle husband by throwing dark curses at him because she would be in two types of trouble; i) trouble from the British Muggle law (bearing in mind this is in the 1960s and 70s and attitudes towards spousal abuse were not as enlightened as they are now); and ii) in trouble with the Ministry of Magic. :whistle:

The troubling question remains as to where, exactly, young Severus first developed an interest in the Dark Arts.

But I think you have a point about Lucius's acceptance and a kind of a slow indoctrination where Snape would have been told about the power and status and the glory of serving Voldemort. But if Lucius's acceptance and guidance was present from day one, then I think Lily would have known about that too, because they were very friendly IMO at that time.

I'm not sure that Snape would necessarily have told Lily everything, to be honest, once they both got Sorted into different Houses. What is he going to tell Lily about Lucius, after all? "Lucius Malfoy is a pureblood prefect who hates Muggleborn wizards and believes the wizarding world would be better without them" -- ? :whistle:

I respectfully disagree with you. While I think Snape in those days did not care a lot for the muggles, because of his bad experience (father) with them, I don't think he was planning to enslave them. I agree with Yoana, I don't think there is anything in canon to suggest this. :)

I'm with you and Yoana on this. No canon. :cool:

P.S. Welcome to the forums and this thread, The Burrowers! :wave:

I'll be answering in the Snape thread Pearl. There is more Snape than Snape/Lily. :)

But didn’t JKR say that if Snape had not been so interested in DA that Lily may have become romantically interested in him?
Might have become interested not may have become interested. Might have implies a larger degree of uncertainty than may. And given that Lily and James were soulmates, there is high degree of uncertainty that Lily would have ever become interested in Snape.

Might have become interested not may have become interested. Might have implies a larger degree of uncertainty than may. And given that Lily and James were soulmates, there is high degree of uncertainty that Lily would have ever become interested in Snape.

Whoa, I haven't see you in a while ComicBookWorm! I agree with you that the quote doesn't hold much certainity. There's possiblity of Snape not being into the Dark Arts and Lily still not loving him romanticaly. That quote is like a Quantum Box. Nobody absolutely knows what would have happened (except JK Rowling).

Might have become interested not may have become interested. Might have implies a larger degree of uncertainty than may. And given that Lily and James were soulmates, there is high degree of uncertainty that Lily would have ever become interested in Snape.

Having just checked in several different English dictionaries I find they all agree that might & may are simply different tenses and therefore do not convey any difference in degree of uncertainty.

Might is simply the past tense of may.

Of course, you may be using a different language base that English proper, such as the US version where such a distinction may or may not exist - I have no American dictionary to check whether or this is the case.

The quote was might. And I really don't want to argue points of grammar since we've been asked not to in the past, but I did just find several sources that indicated that might implies more uncertainty than may, so I wasn't mistaken or using "improper" American. However, I don't think it would be wise to continue this any further.

The real point is that Lily and James were soulmates, so James would have needed to leave the picture entirely (not mature or not pursue Lily) for Snape to even have a chance. And then Snape would have needed to drop his Jr. DE friends, interest in the Dark Arts, his bloodist outlook, and aspirations to join Voldemort. For that to happen, he would have needed to pay closer attention to Lily's concerns and needs. And he had over five years to do that, and he never figured it out.

Whoa, I haven't see you in a while ComicBookWorm! I agree with you that the quote doesn't hold much certainity. There's possiblity of Snape not being into the Dark Arts and Lily still not loving him romanticaly. That quote is like a Quantum Box. Nobody absolutely knows what would have happened (except JK Rowling).
Circular arguments lose their charm after awhile :p.

I completely agree with you about the uncertainty principle in that quote. So many things would have needed to change to make Lily date Snape. And It wouldn't have happened since it would have yielded an entirely different storyline.

Might have become interested not may have become interested. Might have implies a larger degree of uncertainty than may. And given that Lily and James were soulmates, there is high degree of uncertainty that Lily would have ever become interested in Snape.

Long time no see, CBW! :D

I agree with you. The quote had uncertainty to it, and I tend to take hypothetical statements with a grain of salt. J.K. Rowling said that Lily might have fallen for Snape, but she stated the circumstances required in order for it to possibly happen. She could have also said that Lily wouldn't have fallen for James if he was attracted to the Dark Arts. In my opinion it isn't a very strong point to make because the quote indicates that a change of character would have been required in order for Lily to fall for Snape.

The real point is that Lily and James were soulmates, so James would have needed to leave the picture entirely (not mature or not pursue Lily) for Snape to even have a chance. And then Snape would have needed to drop his Jr. DE friends, interest in the Dark Arts, his bloodist outlook, and aspirations to join Voldemort. For that to happen, he would have needed to pay closer attention to Lily's concerns and needs. And he had over five years to do that, and he never figured it out.

I agree. Imo, the point is that James was created to be Lily's literary soulmate and spawn Harry Potter, so independent of what happened, they were destined to be together (literary style). It is a rather academic point, imo, because that is what actually happened in canon.

However, going back to the original point Meesha brought up, I would agree that Lily and Snape's friendship was one in which the two individuals had opposing fundamental belief systems, outlooks and viewpoints, and that, imo, is what ultimately caused the friendship to end. That occurence was also a fait accompli in canon.

Imo, canon provides us with many reasons for them not to have been friends, but little to no reason for them to have been friends. Imo, that is because the purpose was not to show that they were friends, but why they became friends (they met when they were little - Lily wanting knowledge of the wizard world and Snape intrigued by a pretty girl showing a good ability for magic, imo) and why they could not remain friends (their initial reasons for being friends were distinguished shortly after their arrival at Hogwarts and their distinct fundamental belief systems, imo).

Imo, canon provides us with many reasons for them not to have been friends, but little to no reason for them to have been friends. Imo, that is because the purpose was not to show that they were friends, but why they became friends (they met when they were little - Lily wanting knowledge of the wizard world and Snape intrigued by a pretty girl showing a good ability for magic, imo) and why they could not remain friends (their initial reasons for being friends were distinguished shortly after their arrival at Hogwarts and their distinct fundamental belief systems, imo).
I disagree. I think the main point is that they were friends. That was the big reveal. The reason why that friendship broke is also important.

However, going back to the original point Meesha brought up, I would agree that Lily and Snape's friendship was one in which the two individuals had opposing fundamental belief systems, outlooks and viewpoints, and that, imo, is what ultimately caused the friendship to end. That occurence was also a fait accompli in canon. Again I disagree. I don't think that people have to have the same belief systems to be compatible in a long term sexual relationship, yet alone to be friends. There are plenty of examples both in real life and in literature of people with different belief systems being friends and even soulmates. I also don't beleive that they were actually that different at heart. I think that Snape's ambition proved to be his undoping with Lily. He put his ambition before everything including Lily, and ended up loosing everything and Lily died. IMO so many of the beleifs required by Death Eaters seem to have been adopted by Severus in order to further his "career" and help him achieve power.
IMO it is obvious that Severus does not believe in the fundamental inferiority of muggleborn witches and wizards. He tells Lily quite plainly that it doesn't make a difference and to him it certainly didn't make a difference that Lily was muggleborn. Snape just didn't care that Lily came from a family of muggles; he still wanted to be her friend. If he was so fundamentally against muggleborns in his heart he would never have made friends with her; he would have waited until he went to Hogwarts and met "the right sort" as Draco Malfoy calls them.

Severus was always interested in the Dark Arts but I do not see this as necesarily a bad thing. In fact it was his knowledge of the Dark Arts that enabled him to save Dumbledore's life and "buy him" a year - time that was crucial for Dumbledore to pass information on to Harry.

So while Snape undoubtedly had a vicious streak I do not see him as being "bloodist" at all, and I certainly don't see him as someone who was only interested in using the Dark Arts to hurt others. For a short time he used his talents and skills in a negative way, but that does not define his whole life or his whole character. IMO there is far more evidence that Severus in his heart did not believe in the "pure blood supremist agenda" of the Death Eaters but like many ambitious people, he adopted their policies in order to achieve power. Jo herself has said that it was his ambition - his desire for power that blinded him. As such I don't see Lily and Severus as being that different. They were both creative and both had a keen sense of humour. And they were clearly friends for over five years. I see no reason why that could not have continued IF Severus had not been so attracted to the Dark Arts and craved the power they could give him. IMO the Dark Arts have a lot to do with power - or having power over someone. The unforgiveables being the clearest examples: Avada Kedava is the power of life and death over someone, Cruciatus - the torture curse - is the power to cause unendurable pain amd Imperio is the power to bend someone to your will. IMO the reason why they are unforgiveable is because they give such total power over another individual. To me it is this "power over other" which makes magic "Dark" - so IMO love potions are also Dark Magic. IMO this is what Severus loved about the Dark Arts. However while he retained his interest in the Dark Arts I think he lost every shred of ambition when Lily died. As such I do not think his interest in the Dark Arts after this was a negative or sinister thing, but rather like Harry's in that it was more about Defence against the Dark Arts. IMO this is also why Severus wanted the DADA job - that by teaching DADA he was in soem way making up for his previous use of the Dark Arts.

I disagree. I think the main point is that they were friends. That was the big reveal. The reason why that friendship broke is also important.

Again I disagree. I don't think that people have to have the same belief systems to be compatible in a long term sexual relationship, yet alone to be friends. There are plenty of examples both in real life and in literature of people with different belief systems being friends and even soulmates.

I kindly disagree with your disagreement with WWB's agreement with Meesha. Sure, two people can have a relationship even if one has morals that are different with the other person's morals. But I think that can only happen if the two people are not concerned with the other's morals. So that's where Lily and Snape's friendship is different. If Lily was apathetic towards Snape's like of Dark Magic and dream of becoming a Death Eater, then a friendship can suffice. Yet, the Lily that was shown in canon is concerned about Snape's like of Dark Magic and dream of becoming a Death Eater. Morals may not be important to all friendships, but it was important in Snape's and Lily's friendship, because morals were something Lily cared about. So I believe the fact that other people can have friendships with people whose morals differ from them is irrelevant because those friendships are conditionless. Lily's and Snape's friendship had conditons because Lily would not tolerate Dark Magic and dreams of being a Death Eater.

I disagree. I think the main point is that they were friends. That was the big reveal. The reason why that friendship broke is also important.

I respect your view, however, imo if the main point for the readers was that Snape and Lily had been friends, then we would have been shown the friendship rather than the rocky way they became friends and the rocky friendship they had.

Again I disagree. I don't think that people have to have the same belief systems to be compatible in a long term sexual relationship, yet alone to be friends.

I respect your view, however imo, we are not in disagreement. I too agree that Lily and Snape had a friendship.

There are plenty of examples both in real life and in literature of people with different belief systems being friends and even soulmates.

I respect your view; however, I was speaking in terms of HP universe. JKR indicated that Lily and James were soulmates, thus Snape and Lily were not soulmates, imo. However, my point was not that Snape and Lily were not friends, but rather, that imo, their belief systems, outlooks and viewpoints were different on fundamental issues which is why the relationship was rocky and ultimately ended.

I also don't beleive that they were actually that different at heart. I think that Snape's ambition proved to be his undoping with Lily. He put his ambition before everything including Lily, and ended up loosing everything and Lily died. IMO so many of the beleifs required by Death Eaters seem to have been adopted by Severus in order to further his "career" and help him achieve power. IMO it is obvious that Severus does not believe in the fundamental inferiority of muggleborn witches and wizards. He tells Lily quite plainly that it doesn't make a difference and to him it certainly didn't make a difference that Lily was muggleborn. Snape just didn't care that Lily came from a family of muggles; he still wanted to be her friend. If he was so fundamentally against muggleborns in his heart he would never have made friends with her; he would have waited until he went to Hogwarts and met "the right sort" as Draco Malfoy calls them.

I would respectfully disagree that Snape and Lily were not actually that different at heart. Imo, Snape's adopting the Death Eater beliefs shows a magnitude of difference in that Lily would never adopt those beliefs.

Imo, from Lily's point of view, she saw Snape at heart in the following ways: my interpretation was that Snape determined to adopt those beliefs and then act upon them as a death eater, and Lily determined and acted opposingly, imo. I felt Snape believed that Mulciber's using dark magic on Mary was funny and Lily did not, imo. In my interpretation, Snape saw no distinction between the magic not considered dark magic that the Marauders did and the dark magic Mulciber did, and Lily saw a difference, imo. Too, I felt Snape believed it was fine to expose Lupin and Lily did not, imo. In my view, Snape believed that calling people mudblood was something he wished to do (for whatever reason), with the exception of Lily - even though he called her one too, and Lily did not agree, feeling that all people were equal and that at all times should be treated as such, imo. I saw another distinction in that Snape believed being friends with budding Death Eaters who wanted to join Voldemort and Snape too was a budding Death Eater who wanted to join Voldemort, and Lily was against those things, imo. Also, I felt Snape had romantic feelings for Lily, but Lily had no romantic feelings for Snape, imo. Another distinction I felt was that Snape behaved in a vindictive and bullying manner and Lily did not approve of those things, imo. Too, I felt that Snape did not wish to speak about the things Lily saw as wrongful behavior on his part, Lily wished to speak about them, imo. A final difference I saw was that Snape determined to fight on Voldemort's side for whatever reasons, which meant the suppression of Muggleborns and muggles including death for many of them, whereas Lily determined that combatting that was the right thing to do, imo.

Imo, from Lily's point of view, at heart she and Snape were very different and that is why considering both the present and future, Lily ended the friendship.

Severus was always interested in the Dark Arts but I do not see this as necesarily a bad thing. In fact it was his knowledge of the Dark Arts that enabled him to save Dumbledore's life and "buy him" a year - time that was crucial for Dumbledore to pass information on to Harry.

I respect your view, but imo, it was not the 'interest' in the dark arts that was the problem for Lily, it was where Snape carried his interest (dark friends and acts according to JKR). The example you give is after Snape changed sides and imo, not relevant to the time during which Lily and Snape were friends.

So while Snape undoubtedly had a vicious streak I do not see him as being "bloodist" at all, and I certainly don't see him as someone who was only interested in using the Dark Arts to hurt others. For a short time he used his talents and skills in a negative way, but that does not define his whole life or his whole character.

I respect your view, however, again, I was referring to the period during which Snape and Lily were friends. Snape's subsequent changes in viewpoint would not be relevant to that period, imo.

IMO there is far more evidence that Severus in his heart did not believe in the "pure blood supremist agenda" of the Death Eaters but like many ambitious people, he adopted their policies in order to achieve power.

Imo, Snape's later changes after turning to the good side would not have impacted his friendship with Lily. At that time, he was supportive and approving of the Death Eater values, including the pure blood supremist agenda, imo. As you pointed out, Snape elected those things over his friendship with Lily and I agree. In that light, Snape elected the dark side over the light side and as such, what was "in his heart" at that time was to pursue the death eater agenda, for whatever reasons, imo, which overcame any other nudges of his subconscious that may have been telling him he was doing the wrong thing.

Understand that I feel all of the death eaters (perhaps excluding Voldemort) had good in them. So I don't mean to say Snape had no good - just that he elected not to find it and act upon it during his friendship with Lily, imo. This is true of other Death Eaters in canon...we saw good come out in Lucius, Regulus and others, but when they were at Hogwarts, they did not find it within themselves and act upon it at that time. That is the period relevant to Snape and Lily's friendship, imo.

I sincerely doubt that, had Jo used 'may' instead of 'might' she would have meant something different. I don't think she measured the degree of the possibility and then chose 'might' over 'may' because it conveyed that degree more accurately. We can nitpick all we want, the fact is Jo apparently can see them as possible partners, if Snape hadn't gone into dark activities. I agree with her. I can see them this way as well.

If Snape hadn't been the person he was; and had James not been the person he was; and had Lily not been the person she was; and had Lily and James not been soulmates; and had JKR not intended to write the story she did write. It's just a hypothetical speculation about an outcome that would never have happened since that wasn't the storyline.

And no one would expect she would plan in advance what word to use (might or may), but she did use the a word that conveys a relatively unlikely hypothetical possibility that had no place in her rather complex storyline.

Snape made the mistakes he made because of the person he was. He lost Lily's friendship because of those mistakes. He may have come around later in life to recognize some of his mistakes, but not while Lily was alive. And since he never got around to separating Harry from James, he didn't fully redeem himself, which is why I don't think he recognized all his mistakes.

but when they were at Hogwarts, they did not find it within themselves and act upon it at that time. That is the period relevant to Snape and Lily's friendship, imo.
Damn, I was just about to point that out.

Snape made the mistakes he made because of the person he was.

I disagree with this statement completely. As I see it, he just made a mistake, period. We all do. Saying he made it because of the person he was actually levaes him with no free will, like he was bound to make that mistake no matter what. I don't think that's true or realistic for anyone. Everyone can change, and Snape himself is an example of that. I think his story arch shows quite clearly that the mistake he made wasn't due to some inherent evil in his personna, but a result of a badly judged choice, which he regretted later. All of this defies the notion that the mistake stemmed from his intrinsic nature.

Where in my statement did I say that there was something inherently evil in his person? And where did I say that he was unable to change?

He can't have changed later on if he hadn't been a different person younger. I didn't say he was permanently locked into the person he was when he was younger, no more than I would say that James never matured. But in the time frame relevant to an analysis of Lily and Snape, Snape was not an admirable person. He expressed bigoted ideas, he hung out with Jr. DEs, he practiced Dark Magic, he aspired to join Voldemort.

And he did eventually join Voldemort and cooperate in their bloodist agenda, and practice Dark Magic (since all the DEs did and were expected to), and pass on the prophecy that would doom some family and their infant, so it wasn't just a passing fad for him. He eventually realized his folly when Voldemort targetted the Potters, but not while Lily was alive, not during the time frame relevant for analyzing their relationship.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. But then I don't know what you mean by saying that he made the mistakes he made because of the person he was. Would you care to clarify? :)

I also don't beleive that they were actually that different at heart. I think that Snape's ambition proved to be his undoping with Lily. He put his ambition before everything including Lily, and ended up loosing everything and Lily died. IMO so many of the beleifs required by Death Eaters seem to have been adopted by Severus in order to further his "career" and help him achieve power.
I agree with this for the most part but I do believe that Snape had some sort of unconsious superiority complex over muggles before he was/wanted to be a Death Eater. Though I don't necessarily get the feeling that his prejudice went as far as wanting all muggles or muggleborns exterminated or enslaved, he WAS part of an organization that did have those goals. But that doesn't mean he shared them to the same extent at all.

About their friendship: sure it may have started just on a simple similarity in location and the fact that they were both magical. And sure they were at odds a lot, but I don't think that that means their friendship was completely baseless or lacked true connection. We only saw glimpses of their relationship and through those glimpses we can see that there was a struggle to keep their friendship alive, so the implication that the friendship was nothing to begin with seems a bit silly when it's pretty clear that they both wanted to remain friends until Snape's love of dark arts and friendship with Mulciber and the Mudblood comment became too much for Lily to handle (which, IMO, is totally understandable).

[/run on sentence :)]

ETA:
But then I don't know what you mean by saying that he made the mistakes he made because of the person he was. Would you care to clarify?
What I'd gather from that is that Snape was a person who wanted to be a part of something big and wanted power because he has been so powerless his whole life, so his mistake of becoming a DE to gain what he wanted to badly was a reflection of the sort of person he is. He was willing to even risk the one person he loved for his love of dark arts and power.

I respect your view, but imo, it was not the 'interest' in the dark arts that was the problem for Lily, it was where Snape carried his interest (dark friends and acts according to JKR). The example you give is after Snape changed sides and imo, not relevant to the time during which Lily and Snape were friends.
Well exactly - it wasn't that Severus was interested in the Dark Arts it was when he started practising them that she objected. The example I gave is certainly relevant because it reflects his character - IMO you have to look at all the evidence regarding a persons character to establish their true character and to me it is important how Severus behaved after he changed sides because IMO this is more reflective of his true personality than the few years during which he practised the Dark Arts with the Death Eaters. Lily was friends with Severus but it wasn't until he started to adopt some of the more unpleasant habits of the budding Death Eaters he associated with that she ended the friendship. These unpleasant habits ceased after Lily died and Severus joined the Order, and as such I think the "non-Death Eater" Severus is far more his true character than "Death Eater Severus"
I do believe that Snape had some sort of unconsious superiority complex over muggles before he was/wanted to be a Death Eater. Though I don't necessarily get the feeling that his prejudice went as far as wanting all muggles or muggleborns exterminated or enslaved, he WAS part of an organization that did have those goals. But that doesn't mean he shared them to the same extent at all. Random! :huggles: Haven't seen you in ages!
Yes I think I agree that Severus had a feeling of superiority over muggles, but then IMO quite a few wizards seem to have that, so I do not see it as being indicative that he believed the blood-supremist idealogy

Well exactly - it wasn't that Severus was interested in the Dark Arts it was when he started practising them that she objected. The example I gave is certainly relevant because it reflects his character - IMO you have to look at all the evidence regarding a persons character to establish their true character and to me it is important how Severus behaved after he changed sides because IMO this is more reflective of his true personality than the few years during which he practised the Dark Arts with the Death Eaters. Lily was friends with Severus but it wasn't until he started to adopt some of the more unpleasant habits of the budding Death Eaters he associated with that she ended the friendship. These unpleasant habits ceased after Lily died and Severus joined the Order, and as such I think the "non-Death Eater" Severus is far more his true character than "Death Eater Severus"

I respect your view. :) My interpretation was that Snape did not simply change sides to one that he always believed in, rather, after changing sides, some of his fundamental beliefs changed as well, imo. I felt that when Snape agreed that he no longer watched those die who he could save and when he became annoyed at P. Black for calling Hermione a Mudblood (DH-TPT), imo, he was indicating some of the changes that had taken place within his fundamental belief system. I believed that in his youth, Snape had yet to undergo these changes which was why, imo, he would call people Mudblood (DH- TPT) and why he was interested in dark arts friends and acts. (JKR Bloomsbury Chat).

My interpretation is that since Lily knew only the young Snape until he was fifteen, imo, he had yet to undergo the changes of character he would undergo later in life. I agree with you that in Snape's character analysis, his lifetime character should be taken into account, however, I believe that Lily was only privy to Snape's character prior to the change. I feel that is why Lily determined that she had to end the friendship and I believe that is supported by the reasons Lily gave to Snape for ending the friendship during their discussion in DH - TPT (the last one between them where she commented upon his blood purist ideas (when she said he applied them to others and then asked why should she be any different) and she categorized him with his friends as planning to join Voldemort's Death Eaters.)

1. Snape would have been nervous as she was muggle born, and also Petunia was around all the time! (I am scared of her). I don't think he would have been fascinated by her if she was not magic, he himself was a half-blood, and I don't think he would have wanted to have a relationship in the future where children were brought up like he was.

2. Lily was a very beautiful soul. I think she would have wanted to believe that Snape had good in him. If he had not introduced her to the magical world, I don't know how much scope there would have been for friendship, being in different houses, and also I feel that Snape's introduction played an important part in their friendship.

3. I think the Snape was obsessed, besotted with Lily. Whereas she was just a very nice person, and she wanted Snape to have friends. Snape did allot of the running as he was obsessed, but the Lily kept it up too. It was not equal in the sense that it was fair, but they both had difficulties on each side.

4. Yes they both worked to maintain the friendship, but I do not think Lily considered him romantically. Hogwarts meant that there were other people than Petunia to meddle in their lives. The fact that they were in such opposing houses would have caused there friendship to be questionable. They were both torn between their house and one another.

5. Gryffindor is a house for the noble and brave, and Lily would have found that in this house she could use her talent for good. Slytherin has th stigma of Dark Arts attached to it => Snape would have found less nice things to focus his talents on. They were both amazing at potions we know. I think that if they had been in the same house, Snape would have been accepted by the other Gryffindor's (Look at Petigrew!) And therefore it would have made their friendship more acceptable. So yes I think there would have been massive changed (Harry Snape?!)

6. I think that as they grew at school, it would have become more and more apparent how different they were becoming. The "mudblood" insult may be seen as the final straw. Maybe Lily had been waiting for an occasion such as this to throw the towel in on the friendship. Snape was showin Dark tendencies, and this did not impress Lily, I don't think the friendship would have lasted much longer even if Snape hadn't made the "mudblood" comment.

7. If one had shown more loyalty to the things that the other was holding strong maybe. Like if Snape had promised Lily that he was 100% against the Dark Arts, then maybe things would have been different, is he HAD been against them , and had been a better person in the moral sense, then Lily wouldn't have had so many reservations. I don't think that Lily would have gone to the Dark, so I won't even consider it!!! She was GOOD!

8. I don't think Lily really saw romance. But then if Snape had not been a Death Eater, maybe romance would have bloomed? The bottom line is, if Snape had not gone dark, then there would not have been so many issues!!

Welcome to COS HazelAnn! :)

1. Snape would have been nervous as she was muggle born, and also Petunia was around all the time! (I am scared of her). I don't think he would have been fascinated by her if she was not magic, he himself was a half-blood, and I don't think he would have wanted to have a relationship in the future where children were brought up like he was.

This is a very interesting observation. Would Snape have been interested in Lily had she not been magical. I am in two minds, though I am leaning towards the *I think he would have*. His home life from what we saw was not very normal and not very nice, but I think he found Lily very pretty and nice, someone he wanted to be friends with and since he saw that she was magical as well, he planned his introduction with that. Using the thing they had in common with each other. Magic IMO.

But if Lily had not been magical, I think Snape, who was more of an outcast and was most likely only watching the others play in the park, would have approched Lily in some other way. I think he was fascinated by her cheerfulness and brightness and the fact she was a muggleborn was never an issue with him, so if she was not magical the fact she was a muggle would also not be an issue with him IMO.

3. I think the Snape was obsessed, besotted with Lily. Whereas she was just a very nice person, and she wanted Snape to have friends. Snape did allot of the running as he was obsessed, but the Lily kept it up too. It was not equal in the sense that it was fair, but they both had difficulties on each side.

I think Snape was in love with Lily and I also think she loved him back. As a friend. He grew to love her romantically, but she swayed towards James that way. That IMO was the cause of their break up. Otherwise I think Lily would have been friends with him until he joined the DEs or did dark magic. Then surely she would have broken off with him IMO.

I don't think it was just Snape who did the running, I think the friendship was equal and was very satifying to both of them. Otherwise their differences would have driven them apart long before IMO. They were not only different in their home life, but they were also in different Houses in Hogwarts. But they had many, many things in common that kept them together and I think they had great friendship, that Lily never sought such a deep friendship in School. (We don;t see it at least; we know how close the Marauders were, but with Lily, there is nothing in the books about very close friendships apart from Snape, leading me to believe she did not want any, because she already had it IMO.)

They vibed well with each other and were very content with each other and that was why I think the friendship stood for as it did. Everything crumbled when Lily fell for James IMO. (And no, I am not saying that Lily had no right to do so or it was wrong; I just see it that way) :) IMO

This is a very interesting observation. Would Snape have been interested in Lily had she not been magical. I am in two minds, though I am leaning towards the *I think he would have*. His home life from what we saw was not very normal and not very nice, but I think he found Lily very pretty and nice, someone he wanted to be friends with and since he saw that she was magical as well, he planned his introduction with that. Using the thing they had in common with each other. Magic IMO.
I'm not sure if Snape would have - I think it was Lily's magical ability that drew Snape to Lily and that was the reason he was watching her. I think he was already showing prejudice towards muggles at that point (his hesitation when Lily asked him if it mattered or not), and would not have bothered with Lily if he had not seen her preforming magic with her sister. I think that's what caught his eye.

I think the fact that Lily was a muggleborn was always at the back of Snape's mind - otherwise the "slip" would not have occured imo.

I think Snape was in love with Lily and I also think she loved him back. As a friend. He grew to love her romantically, but she swayed towards James that way. That IMO was the cause of their break up.
I disagree. I think Lily could not have made it clearer that the reason she was bothered with Snape was because he was hanging out with people she did not approve of and (imo) found scary. I think she was bothered by the fact that he was a death eater and was not listening to her, instead swaying further and further onto the bad side. I don't think it had anything to do with James, because she refused to date him at that point anyway.

But they had many, many things in common that kept them together
Such as?

and I think they had great friendship, that Lily never sought such a deep friendship in School. (We don;t see it at least; we know how close the Marauders were, but with Lily, there is nothing in the books about very close friendships apart from Snape, leading me to believe she did not want any, because she already had it IMO.)
We do not have proof that Lily did not seek a close friendship with anyone else. She had friends that cared enough about her to try to warn her away from a bad influence - friends that she chose to hang out with instead of Snape in SWM. She also became very very close with James and the other marauders - enough that she trusted her life and the life of her child with any of them.

They vibed well with each other and were very content with each other and that was why I think the friendship stood for as it did.
Do you have any canon to back it up? I can only think of instances where their vibe together was rather poor - the way I saw it, they were always at odds with each other.

Everything crumbled when Lily fell for James IMO. (And no, I am not saying that Lily had no right to do so or it was wrong; I just see it that way) :) IMO
IMO, things were crumbling from the beginning of the friendship - from the prejudice already present in Snape's mind at age eleven (imo), and from his apparently lack of caring about her opinions and feelings imo.

I think he was already showing prejudice towards muggles at that point (his hesitation when Lily asked him if it mattered or not), and would not have bothered with Lily if he had not seen her preforming magic with her sister. I think that's what caught his eye.

I think he disliked muggles, because of his father. But I also think he found Lily very sweet and bright. She was IMO everything he was not, but wanted to be. He introduced himself by a common element they had between them. But otherwise too, I think Snape would have somehow tried to get to know her.

I think the fact that Lily was a muggleborn was always at the back of Snape's mind - otherwise the "slip" would not have occured imo.

I don't think so and I respectfully disagree with you. I think the word *mudblood* was a swear word which slipped out. I don't think that Snape ever regarded Lily in any way that was demeaning or disrespectful. I think he had the highest regard and loved her truly. Because he walks away and never inteferes in her happiness, even though she found it with a man he disliked and a man who hated Snape.

I think she was bothered by the fact that he was a death eater and was not listening to her, instead swaying further and further onto the bad side.

Can you please provide canon for the fact Snape was a death eater at the time of the SWM or before (for after that there is no Snape/Lily)? :)

I don't think it had anything to do with James, because she refused to date him at that point anyway.

She did not date him just then, I agree with you on that; but I do think she was in love with him, the way Snape was in love with her. Her actions in the werewolf memory makes sense to me only then; otherwise I feel let down by her.

Such as?

Their love of potions for one thing and their understanding of each other. I think without that and without the fact they must have surely liked each other an awful lot, they would not have remained friends with each other. I also think Lily had an interest in the dark arts like Snape did. Only IMO she was not interested in practising it.

We do not have proof that Lily did not seek a close friendship with anyone else. She had friends that cared enough about her to try to warn her away from a bad influence - friends that she chose to hang out with instead of Snape in SWM. She also became very very close with James and the other marauders - enough that she trusted her life and the life of her child with any of them.

We also don't have proof that she did have other best friends. If she did I think her friendship with Snape would have slowly become a casual friendship or something. Since we are not shown in the books that lily had other best friends, I simply chose to view it this way. :) And I think she became close to James and Co. only after School or in the last few months of school.

Do you have any canon to back it up? I can only think of instances where their vibe together was rather poor - the way I saw it, they were always at odds with each other.

Exact words from canon; no I do not have. But the fact the friendship broke sometime in their fifth year and we are shown the strain of that friendship which also began IMO around that time I concluded the way I did, because the friendship stood for over 6 years IMO and that cannot happen unless the friends vibe well with each other. :)

IMO, things were crumbling from the beginning of the friendship - from the prejudice already present in Snape's mind at age eleven (imo), and from his apparently lack of caring about her opinions and feelings imo

I respectfully disagree with this. If their friendship was crumbling from the begining I think they would have broken up in their first year, when they were sorted into different Houses.

I also think Lily had an interest in the dark arts like Snape did. Only IMO she was not interested in practising it.

I respect your view, but what made you feel that Lily had an interest in the dark arts like Snape did?

She did not date him just then, I agree with you on that; but I do think she was in love with him, the way Snape was in love with her. Her actions in the werewolf memory makes sense to me only then; otherwise I feel let down by her.

I respect your view, but I am not sure I understand. Are you referring to the literary kindred souls - soulmate theory via the subconscious? Under that idea:

Lily and James would have been deeply in love because they were soulmates, even though they did not consciously acknowledge it. And as such his soul was calling to her and hers to him and they just began shutting down anything that might cause an interference, including relationships with others in that regard. All a subconscious thing. So he naturally grew less arrogant and stopped pranking so much because his soul was at work subconciously being drawn toward a combined unity of souls with Lily's which is what they both most desired, and she naturally changed in ways as well for the same reason - until the souls finally found one another.

It arises out of the Classic Theory (Greek mythology: Originally humans were combined of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spending their lives searching for the other half to complete them).
Is that what you are referring to? I would agree that Lily and James being soulmates meant they would eventually find one another, but my feeling was that JKR didn't wish to eliminate the idea of self-determination - meaning, they would have to make decisions that would allow them to evolve into the soulmate they could be, rather than their soul mystically compelling them to do so. My opinion of Lily's character was that she would not have ended her friendship with Snape merely because she fell in love with James, if her friendship with Snape had been untroubled and strong - as, imo that is also in line with self-determination and making choices for the right reasons - which I felt was an important theme in the canon.

I would agree that the werewolf incident caused Lily to be impressed with James, as did his Quidditch play and other things she knew about him, however, imo, I think he had to make some real changes before she would become his girlfriend - and perhaps she had to make some changes too before he would want to be her boyfriend (as opposed to just dating). In my opinion, this was independent of Lily's friendship with Snape. I believe that Lily was a strong enough girl to have dealt with dating James and having a friendship with Snape - and imo, she may have even been able to bring some type of truce between the parties involved. However, I feel Snape would have had to of let go of his dark interests before that could happen.

We also don't have proof that she did have other best friends. If she did I think her friendship with Snape would have slowly become a casual friendship or something.

My interpretation was that Lily had close friends - those girls she was with by the lake in SWM. JKR also said that she was a popular girl and imo, that meant that she was friendly and had close friends as well as a number of boys who were interested in her and likely taking her out on dates, because when JKR made that statement, she said that Lily was like Ginny in that respect and Ginny had friends and was dating, (Mugglenet Interview, 2005). I believe those things provided canon proof that Lily had other close friends. :)

What I'd gather from that is that Snape was a person who wanted to be a part of something big and wanted power because he has been so powerless his whole life, so his mistake of becoming a DE to gain what he wanted to badly was a reflection of the sort of person he is. He was willing to even risk the one person he loved for his love of dark arts and power.

Thank you for clarifying it for me. :)

However, I don't think he willingly and knowingly risked the one person he loved for his love of dark arts and power, because I don't think he was aware that it was an either-either case until Lily severed ties with him. I think that until then he believed he could have both.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. But then I don't know what you mean by saying that he made the mistakes he made because of the person he was. Would you care to clarify? :)
I meant that he was insecure because he was attracted to the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted ideas he either learned at home or at Hogwarts (I think both), and he was interested in becoming a DE in order to impress Lily. He was so caught up with his own issues that he didn't pay attention to Lily's wants and needs. His mistakes were all his own. That's the person he was. He did try to spend his life making amends for her death, but since he hated James so much and transferred that to Harry, he didn't completely redeem himself. Nor did he ever come to peace with himself, mostly because he couldn't let go of that hate, so he spent his life embittered. And unfortunately, that bitterness was often directed at Harry.

I don't think he was evil, just very flawed.

I respect your view, but what made you feel that Lily had an interest in the dark arts like Snape did?

Simply because Snape was into reading about hexes and curses before he started Hogwarts. Sirius in GOF tells us that Snape came to School knowing more curses than a seventh year.

Snape's always been fascinated by the dark arts, he was famous for it in School. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was,' Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. 'Snape knew more curses when he arrived at School than half the kids in seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be death eaters.' bold mine

If Snape was famous for it in School and Sirius knew about it, I would assume Lily did as well. And if he came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th year kids, I assumed that he had been reading an awful lot from before he was to leave for Hogwarts. He met Lily when he was about 9 or 10. And he was her window for the world of magic IMO.

Now Snape for whatever reason thought Slytherin was the best House, telling me that Eileen Prince or her family generally belonged to that House. Snape IMO could not have learned about Slytherin being the best House from anybody else, because we don't see anyone being friendly with the Snapes in general. He was also reading curses, hexes and everything, probably from his mothers books.

This implies that she was also favourable towards the dark arts. From where ever and for whatever reason, Snape was attracted towards them, and like with Slytherin he did not think them evil.

And as a small boy who wanted to show off to Lily all that he knew, I think he would have told her about all that he knew of magic and perhaps, even showed her his mother’s books. And IMO Lily would have also known about the dark arts. And I think she was interested because they don’t break their friendship for the next 6 years. And I think Lily would have known all about the dark arts and Slytherins being evil almost from first year, just like Harry knew that Slytherins meant evil. Since we don’t see them argue about the right and wrong of the dark arts earlier, that is, in earlier years, I think she was okay with them.

I respect your view, but I am not sure I understand. Are you referring to the literary kindred souls - soulmate theory via the subconscious? Under that idea:

Lily and James would have been deely in love even though they did not consciously acknowledge it because they were soulmates. And as such his soul was calling to her and hers to him and they just began shutting down anything that might cause an interference, including relationships with others in that regard. All a subconscious thing. So he naturally grew less arrogant and stopped pranking so much because his soul was at work subconciously being drawn toward a combined unity of souls with Lily's which is what they both most desired, and she naturally changed in ways as well for the same reason - until the souls finally found one another.

It arises out of the Classic Theory (Greek mythology: Originally humans were combined of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spending their lives searching for the other half to complete them).
Is that what you are referring to? I would agree that Lily and James being soulmates meant they would eventually find one another, but my feeling was that JKR didn't wish to eliminate the idea of self-determination - meaning, they would have to make decisions that would allow them to evolve into the soulmate they could be, rather than their soul mystically compelling them to do so. My opinion of Lily's character was that she would not have ended her friendship with Snape merely because she fell in love with James, if her friendship with Snape had been untroubled and strong - as, imo that is also in line with self-determination and making choices for the right reasons - which I felt was an important theme in the canon

This is so interesting WWB! I am afraid I did not mean this, simply because I did not know it. I think I have read about this on these boards before, though. I don’t know about soul mates, because I think Lily was Snape's soul mate too. She had in her an ability to humble him, to change him and to turn him. While for Lily Snape was not the person who held her happiness, for Snape I think it was Lily all the way IMO.

While I don’t know much about searching for soul mates, because I did not search for mine (my parents’ did) I know that there is love (old topic where we don’t agree at all lol) and that true love can come anytime to anyone. I think it came to Snape and he felt that love for Lily. Had it not been true soul mate kind of a love, I think Snape would have fallen out of love and his Patronus would have changed, when Lily married James and he saw that she was very happy with him. She had married his enemy, the man whom he disliked so much, who had made his life miserable by being responsible for the SWM which resulted in the break up with Lily. But I think he could not stop feeling love for her, even though he knew that his love would never be realised and his love would never bear fruit. Then she died and guilt added to that love, because he had a hand in her death. He repented and felt remorse and from that day, before he came to Dumbledore on the Hill, Snape started the process of change. But his love for Lily remained and it never went away, not even when she died.

But Lily did not feel that way towards Snape; she felt that way towards James. And her love for James was what made her view Snape like James would. Then her pretty cold reaction towards her best friend when he almost died make sense to me. She never even asked Snape about how he was; about what the monster was and all that. That is what I meant when I said that Lily’s love for James caused her break up with Snape, which IMO Snape knew or suspected. But he was still unable to fall out of love with her IMO.

I would agree that the werewolf incident caused Lily to be impressed with James, as did his Quidditch play and other things she knew about him, however, imo, I think he had to make some real changes before she would become his girlfriend - and perhaps she had to make some changes too before he would want to be her boyfriend (as opposed to just dating). In my opinion, this was independent of Lily's friendship with Snape. I believe that Lily was a strong enough girl to have dealt with dating James and having a friendship with Snape - and imo, she may have even been able to bring some type of truce between the parties involved. However, I feel Snape would have had to of let go of his dark interests before that could happen.

Yes, I agree that the James/Lily development was quite independent of Snape. though, I feel at times that either James or Sirius (I am leaning towards Sirius more than James) somehow made Lily aware of the werewolf incident where Lily knew incomplete deteails about the whole werewolf thing. So Lily knew about James being a boy who went into a tunnel to save his enemy and was very impressed and I suspect that she may have started admiring him from then on, because she was not aware of Sirius’s role in the whole thing or that Remus was actually a werewolf (she calls it a monstor). She knew that Snape suspected Remus to be a werewolf, because as she says he told her that enough times, but I don’t think she was certain. So from where ever she heard it, she did not know about Sirius and Remus. I conclude that Sirius or James spoke where she could hear about this information (no one else knows, because many years later Remus teaches in Hogwarts and the fact he is a werewolf is a secret until Snape reveals all). So Lily may have started seeing James in a different light from that time is what I feel.

But from then on, I think their relationship was a pretty independent one, independent of Snape IMO.

My interpretation was that Lily had close friends - those girls she was with by the lake in SWM. JKR also said that she was a popular girl and imo, that meant that she was friendly and had close friends as well as a number of boys who were interested in her and likely taking her out on dates, because when JKR made that statement, she said that Lily was like Ginny in that respect and Ginny had friends and was dating, (Mugglenet Interview, 2005). I believe those things provided canon proof that Lily had other close friends. :)

She had girl friends, but I think her best friend was Snape, and in the SWM, she had already distanced herself from him; the reason he was sitting alone IMO.

The entire post is my opinion only. :)

My interpretation is that since Lily knew only the young Snape until he was fifteen, imo, he had yet to undergo the changes of character he would undergo later in life. I agree with you that in Snape's character analysis, his lifetime character should be taken into account, however, I believe that Lily was only privy to Snape's character prior to the change. I feel that is why Lily determined that she had to end the friendship and I believe that is supported by the reasons Lily gave to Snape for ending the friendship during their discussion in DH - TPT (the last one between them where she commented upon his blood purist ideas (when she said he applied them to others and then asked why should she be any different) and she categorized him with his friends as planning to join Voldemort's Death Eaters.)Lily only ever knew the young Snape and yet she was friends with him for over five years. If he had been deeply entrenched in the pure-blood supremist beliefs and felt that hurting people using Dark Magic was okay (i.e. as Voldemort was at this age) then I don't think that she would have been friends with him. That is why I think that his fundamental core character was not centred around being a Death Eater and all that that encompasses. To me Severus wanting to be a Death Eater was about ambition and a thrist for power. However he learnt in a very brutal way that power was nothing if Lily was dead. I am not denying that Severus had a Dark side, Just that I see his behaviour towards Remus and his objection to the word Mudblood as him finally finding out who he was and who he wanted to be. I think that his story is one of growth and of finding the truth within yourself and about yourself - and it was Lily that helped him do this because he loved her.

ETA: I think that quote about soulmates is very poetic, however I don't agree with it as having any basis in reality, though perhaps as Jo described Lily and James as soulmates perhaps it applies to their relationship. To me the truth about love is more beautiful becaus eit involves choice and free will - that people feel love and how they respond to that is their own choice. They can choose to nurture a relationship, through selflessly giving of themselves, or they can choose to poison a relationship by being selfish. Lily and James did the former and their relationship flourished. Severus did the latter - I think partly because of his parents and partly because of his own nature - and as a result he lost Lily's friendship. I think this makes a far more interesting tale than one where Lily and James were simply "fated" to be together - but that is just my opinion.

They can choose to nurture a relationship, through selflessly giving of themselves, or they can choose to poison a relationship by being selfish. Lily and James did the former and their relationship flourished. Severus did the latter - I think partly because of his parents and partly because of his own nature - and as a result he lost Lily's friendship. I think this makes a far more interesting tale than one where Lily and James were simply "fated" to be together - but that is just my opinion.

I don't think Snape was selfish, I think that was one thing he was not. He was not selfish and he was not possessive. If he were I think he would have tried to break in, into Lily's happiness with James IMO.

I think Lily chose James over Snape. That was it. And Snape lost her, because she was unable to see him the way he saw her IMO. That friendship would not have broken on that day IMO if it weren't for this, Lily's love for James IMO.

Assuming Lily not fallen for James, I think Lily would have turned him away from the dark arts by making him understand that he would stand to lose her if he chose that path. And I believe that Snape would have chosen the right thing. But from around the werewolf incident IMO, I think Lily lost interest in Snape. I think Snape realised that as well. He tells her, feeling very jealous that James Potter fancied her too IMO.

And afterward, I think it was a mixture of everything; Snape hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, Lily falling for James and the SWM where Snape calls her a mudblood. Then Lily breaks it off IMO.

But Snape's love is pure and true that he is able to change and evolve as a person IMo. I think Lily was very much Snape's soul mate, or at least Lily without her knowledge or intention held Snape's soul. She did not want it, and did not care, but she had it all the same.

Snape loved her, despite knowing she did not love him and holding on to that love he was able to turn and I think that kind of love is a soul bond too, even if it is not fulfilled in all respects IMO.

I don't think Snape was selfish, I think that was one thing he was not. He was not selfish and he was not possessive. If he were I think he would have tried to break in, into Lily's happiness with James IMO.
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But Snape's love is pure and true that he is able to change and evolve as a person IMo. I think Lily was very much Snape's soul mate, or at least Lily without her knowledge or intention held Snape's soul. She did not want it, and did not care, but she had it all the same.

Snape loved her, despite knowing she did not love him and holding on to that love he was able to turn and I think that kind of love is a soul bond too, even if it is not fulfilled in all respects IMO.

I did not mean to imply that Snape was possessive because I don't think he was. What I meant by him being selfish was that he didn't listen to Lily and he didn't try to understand her concerns. He put his ambition before their relationship.
I agree that Snape's love is pure and true, but I don't really beleive the "soulmates" thing - I think that Lily could have been happy with Severus if he had given up his Death Eater ambitions.
I also agree that to love even when that love is not returned, forms a bond. I have always believed that being loved is a responsibility because it gives you tremendous power over someone - I think this is part of Severus's problem though because he grew up with a father who abused the power that Eileen's love gave him.

I think that quote about soulmates is very poetic, however I don't agree with it as having any basis in reality, though perhaps as Jo described Lily and James as soulmates perhaps it applies to their relationship. To me the truth about love is more beautiful becaus eit involves choice and free will - that people feel love and how they respond to that is their own choice. They can choose to nurture a relationship, through selflessly giving of themselves, or they can choose to poison a relationship by being selfish. Lily and James did the former and their relationship flourished. Severus did the latter - I think partly because of his parents and partly because of his own nature - and as a result he lost Lily's friendship. I think this makes a far more interesting tale than one where Lily and James were simply "fated" to be together - but that is just my opinion.

I share your opinion too. The outtake I provided is one theory, but I agree with you that the element of free will and self determination are very important. I believe People still have to make decisions and choices that will allow them to actually grow into the person who is the soulmate of the other. Actually you put it perfectly and I can't put it any better, so I should just say, I agree! :lol:.

ETA: I don't believe JKR was referring to the Kindred Soul theory either; imo, she meant soulmates that had come together in the fashion we are speaking of, rather than by fate or mystic power because imo, one of the repeating themes in canon was that of the importance of decisions and choices.

I don't think Snape was selfish, I think that was one thing he was not. He was not selfish and he was not possessive. If he were I think he would have tried to break in, into Lily's happiness with James IMO.

I do think we see him acting in a possessive way with Lily, actually. I think all of that stems from his own insecurity, sure. But it's there. He says things like "I won't let you," and Lily reacts immediately (as any self-respecting woman would. :p )

I think Lily chose James over Snape. That was it. And Snape lost her, because she was unable to see him the way he saw her IMO. That friendship would not have broken on that day IMO if it weren't for this, Lily's love for James IMO.

I can't agree with that. Canon shows Lily's increasing unhappiness over Snape's attraction towards the Death Eater movement and the anti-Muggle prejudice he had as a child. These troubling things were in place before James came on the scene.

Assuming Lily not fallen for James, I think Lily would have turned him away from the dark arts by making him understand that he would stand to lose her if he chose that path.

She makes that crystal clear to him on the night their friendship breaks up outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor. :huh: Should she have given him another chance? -- well, maybe. But Snape has some work to do here as well. It shouldn't be all down to Lily. He isn't even able to deny that he wants to become a DE. This bitterly disappoints her, and she can take no more ... especially after he hurled the Mudblood insult at her. As far as Lily is concerned, the cat is out of the bag.

Believe me, I have a lot of sympathy for young Snape: he has a lot going against him in his background, and I'm not surprised that a lonely kid like him was attracted to the bright and loving Lily, neither am I surprised that he was attracted to the Slytherin elite. However, I do think canon shows that he had a moral culpability in this respect. It wasn't like every young Slytherin at that time was going to become a Death Eater (take Blaise Zabini in Harry's day): so young Severus did have a choice.

And afterward, I think it was a mixture of everything; Snape hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, Lily falling for James and the SWM where Snape calls her a mudblood. Then Lily breaks it off IMO.

But Lily has real problems with Severus being friends with Mulciber and Avery -- who seem to be practising cruel and bullying sort of magic on the likes of Mary McDonald --before the werewolf incident. :huh:

But Snape's love is pure and true that he is able to change and evolve as a person IMo. I think Lily was very much Snape's soul mate, or at least Lily without her knowledge or intention held Snape's soul. She did not want it, and did not care, but she had it all the same.

Snape's love is strong, I agree. I would find it a lot 'purer' if he hadn't taken out his ancient grudge against James on Harry.

And I cannot agree that Lily 'did not care'. I think she cared about Severus very much, otherwise why would they both be friends for so long? But Snape's prejudice against her own kind, and his own attraction to the Death Eaters, ultimately made their friendship untenable, IMO. That is the conclusion I draw from The Prince's Tale: I think the breakdown of the friendship is documented very clearly, and that there are problems inherent from the get-go.

I do think that canon shows that Snape tries to fight the anti-Muggle prejudice that has been drummed into him, because he loves Lily. But in the end ... his love for her is not enough to overcome that and prevent him from going on the Death Eater path. :sigh:

To his eternal regret, sure. But that's his story.

Snape loved her, despite knowing she did not love him and holding on to that love he was able to turn and I think that kind of love is a soul bond too, even if it is not fulfilled in all respects IMO.

What I admire about Severus is his courage and his single-mindedness. Once he decides to work for Albus, he goes for it, so to speak: The Prince's Tale shows that, IMO. He doesn't deviate from working against Voldemort in a very bleak existence as double agent -- all to protect Lily's son for Lily's sake.

The 'soul bond' he felt for Lily ... I can buy into that, to a certain extent, because I think that what Lily stood for ultimately became the motivating force that turned his life around. I like to think that Canon Snape eventually (even if it was in the very latter stages of his life) believed in the same things that she did ... a wizarding world without prejudice.

However, as canon shows it, his feelings for Lily are still problematic. I think he did love Lily, but his love is flawed ... otherwise he wouldn't have taken out his ancient bitterness at the man she loved on her own son.

JMO. :)

That friendship would not have broken on that day IMO if it weren't for this, Lily's love for James IMO.
Lily wasn't in love with James at the time. At best she felt some attraction for him. They didn't date and fall in love until over a year later.

And, as I've pointed out before, she viewed James and Snape in different ways. She did flirt with James and have some attraction for him. So she viewed James as a potential boyfriend if he would stop acting like an arrogant jerk. Snape was a childhood friend, not a boyfriend. Being attracted to James would not affect her feelings about Snape. It's not like Snape was her boyfriend and Lily lost interest because she was attracted to a different guy. Also, viewing it in a way that makes Lily's attraction to James the reason she stopped being friends, and IMO, that overlooks the real reasons she did stop being friends with Snape, which were his very bad choices (Dark Arts, Jr. DEs, bigotry).

It would be like saying that Harry couldn't be friends with Hermione because he was attracted to Ginny. Hermione was friend, Ginny was a girlfriend (dating material), they were viewed in a different light by Harry.

BTW, how James or Sirius viewed Snape would not be any different from all her other friends. She told Snape she had been making excuses for him for years. And why would she have to express concern over his danger from the Prank. He was obviously unscathed and she knew he had been following them around because he suspected Remus was a werewolf. She'd be able to know that he got himself into trouble and was lucky that James did rescue him. At best he deserved a scolding for being so foolish.

I did not mean to imply that Snape was possessive because I don't think he was. What I meant by him being selfish was that he didn't listen to Lily and he didn't try to understand her concerns. He put his ambition before their relationship.
I agree that Snape's love is pure and true, but I don't really beleive the "soulmates" thing - I think that Lily could have been happy with Severus if he had given up his Death Eater ambitions.
I also agree that to love even when that love is not returned, forms a bond. I have always believed that being loved is a responsibility because it gives you tremendous power over someone - I think this is part of Severus's problem though because he grew up with a father who abused the power that Eileen's love gave him.

:tu:

I agree with everything, except that Snape was selfish by not listening to Lily. I think Snape was too lacking in everything and what he thought he would get by joining the death eaters and that was not something he could let go. That was his tragedy. He was blind to the fact that it could cost him everything he valued by not listening to Lily, but his desire to be someone, instead of the nobody he was, completely blinded him IMO.

I do think we see him acting in a possessive way with Lily, actually. I think all of that stems from his own insecurity, sure. But it's there. He says things like "I won't let you," and Lily reacts immediately (as any self-respecting woman would. :p )

'I won't let you'; I took that to mean that Snape would not allow Lily to be friends with those who could send a fellow student into the tunnel to face a werewolf. I think he was also jealous because he suspected Lily to have feelings for James and he being in love with her, naturally did not like it.

I don;t think Snape was possessive, mainly because he respects her. Having made a mistake by calling her mudblood, he was prepared to stay all night in front of Gryffindor Tower and apologize to her. He also respects her wishes when she breaks away from him and never bothers her or tries to break the couple james and Lily became in 7th year IMO. I think had Snape been possessive or selfish, he would have tried to break that relationship IMO.

I can't agree with that. Canon shows Lily's increasing unhappiness over Snape's attraction towards the Death Eater movement and the anti-Muggle prejudice he had as a child. These troubling things were in place before James came on the scene.

Yes and from when do we see the cracks in that friendship? I think it was in the werewolf incident and it broke off in the SWM. That was why I felt that Lily was seeing Snape as James did, because she had fallen for him IMO. I still think that lily would not have broken off her friendship that day if she had not fallen in love with James. She certainly would have done so if Snape became a DE, if Snape practised the dark arts and if Snape hurt others deliberately, just because he could. I think Snape was not guilty of any of this at that time. Even Lily says that she knows Snape wants to be a DE whenhe leaves School; her accusation is not that he was one at that time IMO.

She makes that crystal clear to him on the night their friendship breaks up outside the portrait hole of Gryffindor. :huh: Should she have given him another chance? -- well, maybe. But Snape has some work to do here as well. It shouldn't be all down to Lily. He isn't even able to deny that he wants to become a DE. This bitterly disappoints her, and she can take no more ... especially after he hurled the Mudblood insult at her. As far as Lily is concerned, the cat is out of the bag.

Lily would not have given him another chance that night (of the SWM as we saw in the books). I think she would have had she not fallen for James which I think she did by then. :)

Snape IMO was so taken aback, he was unable to say a word. I think he was so shocked because he knew that she knew everything; but I think he never had the impression that she would break off their friendship over what she already knew. That may have been his mistake IMO.

However, I do think canon shows that he had a moral culpability in this respect. It wasn't like every young Slytherin at that time was going to become a Death Eater (take Blaise Zabini in Harry's day): so young Severus did have a choice.

That was Snape's misfortune. The result of a background made Snape yearn for things he nevr had; like power and status. In Slytherin I think both matter a lot and Snape had nothing. I cannot compare him with Blaise because Blaise was not like Snape. He had a background and he had support. Snape had nothing IMO. That was why Lily's break up with him, was so crucial because it pushed him more towards Avrery and Mulciber. He had lost his love; he could not lose his glory as well. In the end though, very sadly, he lost both IMO.

But Lily has real problems with Severus being friends with Mulciber and Avery -- who seem to be practising cruel and bullying sort of magic on the likes of Mary McDonald --before the werewolf incident. :huh:

I think that was after the werewolf incident, I'm not sure though. :) Lily's only complaint against him was his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber for which I don't think would make her break off her friendship, unless Snape too did some of those bad things. I think in School Snape has never practised dark magic. No one acccuses him of that IMO.

Snape's love is strong, I agree. I would find it a lot 'purer' if he hadn't taken out his ancient grudge against James on Harry.

Well I have written about this in the past, and I really don't think Snape took out his grudge on Harry. I think I posted in the Snape thread, in this version, about the Spinner's End chapter of the HBP, where Bellatrix asks Snape about Harry Potter and his spying for Voldmeort.

From that chapter I think it is made clear that there were many death eaters still on the free and they met and discussed regularly and Snape had to be very careful with Harry Potter and indeed with everybody else. There were also the children of the death eaters as well. The outward show of hostility enabled Snape to keep away from Harry and as a result keep him safe IMO.

I very much believe that Snape did care for Harry, only he never showed it, probably never acknowledged it even to himself.

And I cannot agree that Lily 'did not care'. I think she cared about Severus very much, otherwise why would they both be friends for so long? But Snape's prejudice against her own kind, and his own attraction to the Death Eaters, ultimately made their friendship untenable, IMO. That is the conclusion I draw from The Prince's Tale: I think the breakdown of the friendship is documented very clearly, and that there are problems inherent from the get-go.

Oh, sorry! I worded this wrongly. :) By not caring I meant that she did not care in a romantic way for him, that's all. The breakdown of their friendship is very clearly stated, I agree with you, only I feel that apart from what you have written, there is something more, her feelings for James IMO. that's all. :)

CBW, While Lily did not go out with James until much later, I do feel based on how I interpreted canon, especially the werewolf incident and the SWM that Lily had fallen in love with James and that did colour her opinions about Snape.

The entire post is my opinion only.

CBW, While Lily did not go out with James until much later, I do feel based on how I interpreted canon, especially the werewolf incident and the SWM that Lily had fallen in love with James and that did colour her opinions about Snape.
I can't agree because we have no canon that showed she was in love with James. We barely have canon that showed she was attracted to him. I'd like to think it would take more than James' behavior in the Prank to make Lily fall in love with James. She didn't date James for over a year after SWM, which was even longer after the Prank. And that was because James needed to mature and stop acting like a jerk. Until that happened, she didn't consider him dating material. And then, after they started to date, I feel certain it would have taken some time for her go beyond feeling attracted to him to feeling in love. That's how it usually works--dating then love, not love and then dating.

I think Snape colored Lily's opinion of Snape. He made several serious mistakes due to his own bad choices, and he compounded it by not paying attention to Lily's valid concerns. Lily was perfectly capable of forming her own judgment based on Snape's behavior. She had told Snape what concerned her. She didn't need James' opinion to decide what bothered her.

I have to agree with CBW here. :whistle: :)

'I won't let you'; I took that to mean that Snape would not allow Lily to be friends with those who could send a fellow student into the tunnel to face a werewolf. I think he was also jealous because he suspected Lily to have feelings for James and he being in love with her, naturally did not like it.

Certainly jealousy towards James played its part here. The werewolf incident, IMO, reveals both Sirius and Severus to be culpable. Sirius was an idiot for doing what he did, but so was Severus, when he already had suspicions about Remus.

I don't think Snape was possessive, mainly because he respects her. Having made a mistake by calling her mudblood, he was prepared to stay all night in front of Gryffindor Tower and apologize to her.

Yes, that's true, and I don't underestimate his strength of feeling there, I never have done. :cool: Unfortunately he doesn't give Lily a convincing enough case when she challenges him on whether he is planning to become a Death Eater. :sigh: If only he'd said that he would give it up -- not just for her sake but because it was wrong, full stop -- then we'd have a different story.

I do think we see him being possessive at other times though. He is jealous and insecure about Petunia being Lily's sister, for example. And she is 'only' a Muggle, in his eyes.

He also respects her wishes when she breaks away from him and never bothers her or tries to break the couple james and Lily became in 7th year IMO. I think had Snape been possessive or selfish, he would have tried to break that relationship IMO.

That is true. But Severus never stops hating James. :sigh: And his hatred is exaggerated. Yes, James was a jerk to Severus when he was 15: we all know that. But Mulciber and Avery were likely just as bad in their behaviour, if not worse, and Snape doesn't give up hanging around with them.

Yes and from when do we see the cracks in that friendship? I think it was in the werewolf incident and it broke off in the SWM.

The cracks are showing before all that, IMO. Snape has to bite his lip from using anti-Muggle words around Lily, she -- being young and innocent in the ways of the wizarding world -- just doesn't pick up on these things. But when she says to him that she's been making excuses for him 'for years', this seems to predate the werewolf incident. They don't seem that pally by the time SWM comes around, and that to me indicates a certain cooling off. James was a factor, sure, but he wasn't the only factor ... their friendship was running into difficulties before James showed up.

That was why I felt that Lily was seeing Snape as James did, because she had fallen for him IMO.

I don't agree. :) Lily was questioning Severus about his behaviour before SWM. She also chews James out for bullying Severus in SWM -- she is furious with James. But what Severus does to hurt Lily is on his own account.

I still think that Lily would not have broken off her friendship that day if she had not fallen in love with James.

Sorry, I really can't agree. :) Snape called her a Mudblood. He was hanging around with people who wanted to be Death Eaters, who wanted to target people like Lily. This was a huge problem in their friendship and it is quite independent of Lily's feelings for James, IMO.

Lily would not have given him another chance that night (of the SWM as we saw in the books). I think she would have had she not fallen for James which I think she did by then. :)

Well, I don't agree because she also rejects James on that day. She didn't start going out with him until their 7th year, remember. In SWM she thought he was behaving like a bullying prat -- and he was. It was really the 'Mudblood' insult that was the final straw that broke the camel's back in her friendship with Severus.

Snape IMO was so taken aback, he was unable to say a word. I think he was so shocked because he knew that she knew everything; but I think he never had the impression that she would break off their friendship over what she already knew. That may have been his mistake IMO.

IMO, his mistake was not to correct his own prejudice. It's one thing to be aware that a dear friend has views that make you uncomfortable and even worried -- you can still make allowances for them because you care about them. But when they turn their prejudice on you, then it becomes all too real. That is the situation that Lily was in, IMO.

I think that was after the werewolf incident, I'm not sure though. :) Lily's only complaint against him was his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber for which I don't think would make her break off her friendship, unless Snape too did some of those bad things. I think in School Snape has never practised dark magic. No one acccuses him of that IMO.

Well, Sirius says he came to Hogwarts knowing more Dark Arts curses than any other child. Now, I know Sirius is not exactly unbiased when it comes to all things Severus, but I don't think he is a liar either. And we have the evidence of the Half-Blood Prince's potions book that Snape was already working on spells against enemies. We may not have direct canon about it but it stretches my credulity that he wasn't using these spells at school sometimes. Having read the various arguments, I can buy the theory that he fires a milder version of Sectumsempra at James during SWM (not enough to hurt James really badly, but enough to draw blood). Later on, in DH, Remus says that 'Sectumsempra' was a 'speciality of Snape's.' How would he know that? Unless he was privy to inside knowledge of Snape's career as a Death Eater, had he seen Snape practice Sectumsempra at school?

I very much believe that Snape did care for Harry, only he never showed it, probably never acknowledged it even to himself.

I would love to think so and indeed I wish JKR had written it more explicitly that way. :sigh: I do agree that we see some hints in the Spinner's End chapter that Snape is putting it on, for the benefit of Bella and Cissy. But his hostility towards Harry wasn't all put on: I think canon shows that. But any more Harry and Snape discussion I'll take to the Snape thread. :D

That was Snape's misfortune. The result of a background made Snape yearn for things he nevr had; like power and status. In Slytherin I think both matter a lot and Snape had nothing. I cannot compare him with Blaise because Blaise was not like Snape. He had a background and he had support. Snape had nothing IMO. That was why Lily's break up with him, was so crucial because it pushed him more towards Avrery and Mulciber. He had lost his love; he could not lose his glory as well. In the end though, very sadly, he lost both IMO.

I respect your view, however, I felt that Pearl_Took raised a good analogy with Blaise because his background consisted of a home in which is extremely beautiful mother had 7 husbands, all of whom died under mysterious circumstances; each leaving her a bundle of gold. In my view, that does not make for a stable or comforting home life, and I feel it could have easily been worse than Snape's home environment. The only friend we ever saw him with in canon was Draco, a budding Death Eater at the time, and even then he was never with Draco, Crabbe and Goyle as a regular buddy, so imo, canon does not definitively state whether or not he had any support at all. Blaise admitted to holding blood purist views, which is right in line with Death Eater values, yet with all of those odds stacked against him, he didn't become a Death Eater.

I believe that this perhaps the only instance we have in canon of a prime candidate for Voldemort who chose not to become a Death Eater. Imo, this shows that one can remain strong, even though one is in Slytherin, holds blood purist views, and befriends budding Death Eaters; they can still chose not to become a Death Eater and actually not do so. Snape too had that choice, however, I think the distinction was in their characters; where Snape was vulnerable and insecure, Blaise seemed arrogant and secure in himself, imo. If Blaise wished to be powerful, he apparently figured that he would go about it another way and I think this was possible for Snape as well, but there were other factors such as Snape's fascination with the dark arts and acts that also drew him toward the budding Death Eaters that shared his interests, imo.

CBW, While Lily did not go out with James until much later, I do feel based on how I interpreted canon, especially the werewolf incident and the SWM that Lily had fallen in love with James and that did colour her opinions about Snape.

I respect your view, but another thought I had on this was that following SWM, it would not surprise me if James and Lily didn't speak to one another at all for sometime. Imo, she was pretty fed up with him and I feel she had bruised his ego fairly strongly. That kind of thing can temper ones infatuation for a while, imo. I feel that is another reason why Lily would not consider James when making her decisions about Snape. I also agree with ComicBookWorm in that Lily appeared to be an independent girl who did her own thinking, so, imo, she would not modify her view of Snape to fit another person's view.

I respect your view, however, I felt that Pearl_Took raised a good analogy with Blaise because his background consisted of a home in which is extremely beautiful mother had 7 husbands, all of whom died under mysterious circumstances; each leaving her a bundle of gold.

I got that about Blaise from you, WWB. :lol: He's a really cool kid -- the only black kid in Slytherin we ever see, actually -- and doesn't seem very impressed by Draco's DE ambitions. :lol:

Not sure that I agree with you about Blaise's home life being worse than Snape's though. We have far more canon about Snape's home life than about Blaise's! And frankly Snape's home life seems pretty miserable, from what little we see. :( By contrast, Blaise doesn't seem terribly bothered by his rather scary mother! :D Whereas young Severus seems unhappy when Lily asks him how things are at home. :(

The other thing I would point out though -- somewhat in defence of the pressures on young Snape -- is that I am sure there was far more pressure to join the Death Eaters during the First War, than there seems to have been during the Second (after all, Voldemort was only active again during the last three years of Harry's school career). However, the point remains -- which Blaise illustrates -- that not every Slytherin is destined to become a Death Eater.

I also agree with ComicBookWorm in that Lily appeared to be an independent girl who did her own thinking, so, imo, she would not modify her view of Snape to fit another person's view.

This accords totally with my view of Lily. :tu:

I got that about Blaise from you, WWB. :lol: He's a really cool kid -- the only black kid in Slytherin we ever see, actually -- and doesn't seem very impressed by Draco's DE ambitions. :lol:

Not sure that I agree with you about Blaise's home life being worse than Snape's though. We have far more canon about Snape's home life than about Blaise's! And frankly Snape's home life seems pretty miserable, from what little we see. :( By contrast, Blaise doesn't seem terribly bothered by his rather scary mother! :D Whereas young Severus seems unhappy when Lily asks him how things are at home. :(

The other thing I would point out though -- somewhat in defence of the pressures on young Snape -- is that I am sure there was far more pressure to join the Death Eaters during the First War, than there seems to have been during the Second (after all, Voldemort was only active again during the last three years of Harry's school career). However, the point remains -- which Blaise illustrates -- that not every Slytherin is destined to become a Death Eater.

I agree, I didn't difficult for Blaise himself in a directly abusive sense, but rather to his mentality in terms of becoming a DE. Blaise likely began expecting the "dads" that came along every few years to mysteriously die after a while - and they did. Imo, his mum was not likely scary to him at all, but rather his means of becoming secure - after all, the dad's kept suffering an ill fate, but he never did. But the result of that scenario would likely be Blaise placing less value on the lives of the men coming along in preparation of the end he knew was in store for them. Imo, if he had made that accomodation often, it would have prepared him even more for the DE lifestyle - mentally. So he may have seen his home as stable and comforting (a la Weasleys) - but from the sounds of things, in effect, it was not, imo. Plus he had established pure blood views, was a staunch Slytherin and some of his pals were budding DEs. In addition, Blaise did not have a friend like Lily who was trying to point him in the opposite direction that we know of.

So in terms of resistance, I feel that Blaise would mentally have just as much temptation to join up as Snape did, for different reasons. And my only point was that some of these kids faced the same tough choice, but chose differently.

I don't know if the pressure was greater in the first war than the second, but I feel that Snape, because he embraced part of the dark arts interests early on, was more vulnerable to any influences to join up than someone who was not as fascinated with dark arts practices. I believe that Lily was against the dark arts from the start and so this was something that Snape did not share with her. In my judgment, Lily contributed Snape's increasing interest in the dark arts to his being influenced by Slytherin house at first (i.e., his knowing some curses early on and calling people Mudblood, etc.). My impression was that this is why Lily attempted to excuse his behavior to her friends. However, overtime, the truth became more evident to her, imo.

Random! Haven't seen you in ages!
Yeah, life got in the way! ;)But Lily did not feel that way towards Snape; she felt that way towards James. And her love for James was what made her view Snape like James would. Then her pretty cold reaction towards her best friend when he almost died make sense to me. She never even asked Snape about how he was; about what the monster was and all that. That is what I meant when I said that Lily’s love for James caused her break up with Snape, which IMO Snape knew or suspected. But he was still unable to fall out of love with her IMO.
There is no strong proof that Lily LOVED James at that time. She could have felt some sort of attraction (which she likely hated herself for, especially since she disliked his attitude so much) but love at the time of SWM? Doubtful. And I hear the whole "Snape almost dying" thing a lot, but I don't really buy the notion that Lily knew Snape was practically dying on some bubbles but didn't care and chose to flirt with James. That just doesn't seem plausible to me.

Their friendship dyed because of a few different things ranging from Snape's friends to his priorities, but I a love of James likely wasn't part of this equation.

I don't think Snape was selfish, I think that was one thing he was not. He was not selfish and he was not possessive. If he were I think he would have tried to break in, into Lily's happiness with James IMO.
I don't think Snape was selfish, but that's because he owed nothing to anyone. I firmly believe Lily didn't care what Snape felt by the time seventh year rolled around, and if Lily doesn't care how he feels, his feelings aren't hurting anyone. But I do think he was immature. Sorry, I am not one of those people who believe "you can't stop loving someone on will" and I really think he should have let feelings go. Even if he couldn't let his feelings go, I think he should of been happy for Lily that she found someone that loved her. But no, he is bitter and takes it out on her kid.

I think Lily chose James over Snape. That was it. And Snape lost her, because she was unable to see him the way he saw her IMO. That friendship would not have broken on that day IMO if it weren't for this, Lily's love for James IMO.
Lily chose James two years after she broke her friendship off with Snape, and when James finally matured. The friendship wouldn't have broke if Snape wasn't hanging out with pre-Death Eaters and aspiring to become one. I don't think Lily was thinking, "I have a crush on James now, so I have to abandon Snape." I've seen other posters propose the idea Snape compartmentalized his feelings about Lily and aspiration of becoming a Death Eater. I believe Lily did the same with her feelings about James and Snape. No matter how Lily felt for James, she knew his faults, and wouldn't date him until he changed. Snape was in a different compartment, he was a best friend, not a potential lover. I cannot begin to comprehend how her feeling about James influenced her feelings about Snape.

Assuming Lily not fallen for James, I think Lily would have turned him away from the dark arts by making him understand that he would stand to lose her if he chose that path. And I believe that Snape would have chosen the right thing. But from around the werewolf incident IMO, I think Lily lost interest in Snape. I think Snape realised that as well. He tells her, feeling very jealous that James Potter fancied her too IMO.

I don't understand. You are making it seem like Lily has to choose between Snape and James. If James and Snape discontinued their fighting (and James matured and Snape didn't aspire to become a Death Eater), why can't Lily date James and still be friends with Snape? If or when Lily lost interest in Snape, she still didn't date James until seventh year, so I doubt her feelings for James influenced her losing interest in Snape. Lily broke it off with Snape, she said it clearly: "You chosen your way, I've chosen mine." That say so much more than "I like James so I going to dump you now." It says that there is something bigger than them and it is time choose what side they are on. I believe it was politics that tore them apart, not her unwillingness to change Snape because she had a crush on James.



But Snape's love is pure and true that he is able to change and evolve as a person IMo. I think Lily was very much Snape's soul mate, or at least Lily without her knowledge or intention held Snape's soul. She did not want it, and did not care, but she had it all the same.

Snape loved her, despite knowing she did not love him and holding on to that love he was able to turn and I think that kind of love is a soul bond too, even if it is not fulfilled in all respects IMO.

That's great for Snape. But what does that do for Lily?

I am greatly distrubed by Snape's love for Lily. It is not for any shallow reason like "Snape/Lily threatens James/Lily" (and for the record, I don't believe it does). Snape dedicated 20 years for Lily, but did he even know her? Sure, they were childhood friends, but only to ages 9-16. I doubt deep evalution of each other's character was happening in the early years of their friendship, because what young kids talk about morality and politics?

Snape's assocaition with future Death Eater obviously didn't stand well with Lily, but he didn't listen to her, so it is not hard to imagine he didn't listen/care for the things she said. In SWM, they didn't even greet each other after the test so that indicates they didn't make much effort to see each other. Then Snape gets pantsed, calls Lily a "mudblood", and Lily breaks off the friendship. Canon does not indicate they have any relationship afterwards, so I don't believe they did.

Two years later, Lily becomes Head Girl, dates James, then later on marries James, joins the Order of the Pheonix, and becomes a mother. Does Snape know anything personal about that Lily? Dumbledore said something like "The person you grow up to be is more important than the person you were born as" (Or something along those lines, I can't remmber the exact quote). The point is, Snape didn't know the person Lily grew up to be. He knew ages 9-15 Lily, but he didn't know the wife-of-James!Lily or Order-of-the-Pheonix-member!Lily or mother!Lily, and all these things were important aspects of Lily.

So it makes me think that Snape was fighting for and was madly in love someone he didn't even know. And I'm totally against that. I think he was no better off fighting for Lily than he was fighting for Voldemort because he was still blindly fighting for someone he didn't know (Hell, he maybe even knew Voldemort better than he knew Lily).

I just can't believe fighting for someone equals "pure love". Just because his love for her lead him to the Light side does not make it pure, IMO. Imagine this scenario: Lily wasn't in the Order of the Pheonix, but she apart of an organization that against the Order and the Death Eaters and her organization was brutally massacring people and was supporting oppression (I know that would be very out of character for Lily, but just bare with me). The prophecy is delievered to Voldemort and it still refers to her. I don't think Snape would go to Dumbledore to protect Lily because her organization is against the Order, so it would be logical for Snape to go the head of her organization to protect her. Lily still dies and Snape pledges his alliegiance to her organization in her honor. But her organization supports killing and oppression, so would Snape's morals change because he changed sides because he loved her? Is his love for her still so pure? I don't think it is. I don't think he change his morals because of his love for her, his morals changed because he swithched to her side, and her side provided a better enviorment to change his morals. So yea, I don't agree with "Snape love was pure, it lead him to the Light!" Thank goodness Lily was fighting for the Light.

This all is my opinion. :)

I just can't believe fighting for someone equals "pure love". Just because his love for her lead him to the Light side does not make it pure, IMO. Imagine this scenario: Lily wasn't in the Order of the Pheonix, but she apart of an organization that against the Order and the Death Eaters and her organization was brutally massacring people and was supporting oppression (I know that would be very out of character for Lily, but just bare with me). The prophecy is delievered to Voldemort and it still refers to her. I don't think Snape would go to Dumbledore to protect Lily because her organization is against the Order, so it would be logical for Snape to go the head of her organization to protect her. Lily still dies and Snape pledges his alliegiance to her organization in her honor. But her organization supports killing and oppression, so would Snape's morals change because he changed sides because he loved her? Is his love for her still so pure? I don't think it is. I don't think he change his morals because of his love for her, his morals changed because he swithched to her side, and her side provided a better enviorment to change his morals. So yea, I don't agree with "Snape love was pure, it lead him to the Light!" Thank goodness Lily was fighting for the Light. This all is my opinion. :)

This is an excellent point and I agree completely. :tu:.

The_Green_WoodsSimply because Snape was into reading about hexes and curses before he started Hogwarts. Sirius in GOF tells us that Snape came to School knowing more curses than a seventh year.

Snape's always been fascinated by the dark arts, he was famous for it in School. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was,' Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. 'Snape knew more curses when he arrived at School than half the kids in seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be death eaters.' bold mine

If Snape was famous for it in School and Sirius knew about it, I would assume Lily did as well. And if he came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th year kids, I assumed that he had been reading an awful lot from before he was to leave for Hogwarts. He met Lily when he was about 9 or 10. And he was her window for the world of magic IMO.

Now Snape for whatever reason thought Slytherin was the best House, telling me that Eileen Prince or her family generally belonged to that House. Snape IMO could not have learned about Slytherin being the best House from anybody else, because we don't see anyone being friendly with the Snapes in general. He was also reading curses, hexes and everything, probably from his mothers books.

This implies that she was also favourable towards the dark arts. From where ever and for whatever reason, Snape was attracted towards them, and like with Slytherin he did not think them evil.

I respect your view, but I do not understand how Snape being interested in the dark arts implies Lily was as well. I agree with you that Snape did not think they were evil, but imo, Lily did. According to JKR, Lily might have formed a romantic interest in Snape if it wasn't for those things, so clearly she was against them in my judgment, as that was the basis for their troubled friendship.

Can you please provide canon for the fact Snape was a death eater at the time of the SWM or before (for after that there is no Snape/Lily)? :)
Whoops, sorry :p I meant - was planning on becoming a death eater - or so Lily suspected based on his actions and beliefs imo.

She did not date him just then, I agree with you on that; but I do think she was in love with him, the way Snape was in love with her. Her actions in the werewolf memory makes sense to me only then; otherwise I feel let down by her.
I strongly disagree that Lily loved James the way Snape loved her in SWM. A crush at most imo, but certainly not love. I don't see how Lily could have loved James at that point - she barely seemed to know him (according to Sirius, James never acted himself around her because he was trying to impress her). I do not see anything that indicates "love" on Lily's part for James in SWM.

Their love of potions for one thing and their understanding of each other.
Where does it say that Lily loves potions? :huh: She was good at them yes - but Voldemort also thought her good enough to join the death eaters and fight for him, and she despised the death eaters. Being good at something does not neccessarily mean you like it. I also disagree that they understood each other. Snape did not seem to understand Lily's aversion to the dark arts, and I don't think Lily understood how Snape could be so obsessed with them. Their communication styles were very different as well, which I think helped in the lack of understanding imo.

We also don't have proof that she did have other best friends. If she did I think her friendship with Snape would have slowly become a casual friendship or something. Since we are not shown in the books that lily had other best friends, I simply chose to view it this way. :) And I think she became close to James and Co. only after School or in the last few months of school.
I think Lily's friendship with Snape slowly did become more casual - she did not speak a word to him after the DADA OWL. She chose to hang out with her other girlfriends instead - and it was during a time when the houses were mingled. She also had friends that cared enough about her to warn her away from Snape.

Okay! :)

There were too many posts in reply to mine and after reading all of them, I have tried to write here about why I feel the way I do, about Lily loving James and why it made a difference, because my reply to almost all those posts were similar and I would be repeating myself, well more than I do usually. :) So here goes.

1 I feel that Snape and Lily were best friends until fifth year where I am assuming there werewolf memory took place. I am making that assumption on the basis that Harry does not think that Snape and Lily have grown again between the werewolf memory and the SWM.

2 The werewolf memory took place after the werewolf incident and Snape has not spoken to Lily about the shack and about seeing Remus as a werewolf.

3 Snape has suspicions already about Lily falling for James or rather I think Snape suspected that Lily had fallen in love with James and he was jealous about it.

4 Snape was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and those 2 hexed Mary McDonald and Lily was not impressed. Snape was not in that prank, but Lily did not like the fact that Snape was hanging out with those who would play such a prank on Mary.

5 while Lily had fallen for James, I also think that she refused to give in to those feelings, but because she was thinking of James Potter differently, I think subconsciously she also made her choice about Snape, by taking James’s side. I also think Snape knew it, and it is in this memory that we see Snape acknowledging it to himself and asking Lily. But his skills in explaining emotions being pathetic, he does a bad job IMO.

6 Lily’s outward brushing off of James Potter also relieved Snape and he took her word at face value and that could be another reason why he was stunned the night of the SWM.

I have in bold the text of the DH -- chapter TPT

The werewolf memory

‘…thought we were supposed to be best friends?’ Snape was saying. ‘Best friends.’

I think this is the first time Snape was beginning voice his doubts and his suspicions regarding Lily. Snape and Lily were best friends, who met each other in school and out of it. They IMO knew each other very well and Snape IMO was suspecting that for Lily, he was no longer her best friend.

‘We are, Sev, but I don’t like some of the people you’re hanging around with! I’m sorry but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev? He’s creepy! D’you know what he tried to do to Mary McDonald the other day?’

Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into his thin sallow face.

‘That was nothing,’ said Snape. ‘It was a laugh, that’s all-‘

But Lily is not ready to give up on the friendship and so she tells Snape that they are best friends, but she does not like the fact that Avery and Mulciber played a dark prank on Mary. I think she was warning him here and trying to point out to him that he was losing himself by hanging out with them. I think Snape was angry, because Lily was complaining about a laugh (which it was not obviously) when it concerned Mary, but she did not say anything when it concerned James Potter & Co. I think Snape's aware that Lily’s having a change of heart about James and he is pretty cut up about it. He thinks what the Marauders did to him was also evil and wants Lily to acknowledge it, as perhaps she had in the past. I think that’s the part he was trying to bring out, when he spoke about Remus. Also until then Snape had not mentioned that Remus was a werewolf to Lily and was keeping his promise. It was only after Lily spoke revealing partial knowledge about the werewolf incident, that Snape spoke as well IMO.

‘What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?’ demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.

‘What’s Potter got to do with anything?’ said Lily.

‘They sneak out at night. There’s something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?’

‘He’s ill,’ said Lily. ‘They say he’s ill-‘

‘Every month at the full moon?’ said Snape.

‘I know your theory,’ said Lily and she sounded cold. ‘Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they’re doing at night?’

‘I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.’

This is where it begins IMO. Snape tells Lily, that the stuff James Potter and his friends get up to is also evil; because it probably does not get a laugh out of Snape, just as Avery and Mulciber doing dark magic does not get a laugh out of Lily. Snape also suspects that Lily thinks well of them, because he tells her that he was trying to show her that James was not wonderful. Snape is trying to get her to talk about her feelings but does not have a clue how to go about it IMO.

The intensity of his gaze made him blush.

‘They don’t use Dark Magic though.’ She dropped her voice. ‘And you’re being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there-‘

Snape's whole face contorted and he spluttered, ‘Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to-I won’t let you-‘

‘Let me? Let me?’

Lily’s bright eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.

‘I didn’t mean – I just don’t want to see you made a fool of – he fancies you, James Potter fancies you!’ the words seemed to be wrenched from him against his will. ‘And he’s not…Everyone thinks…Big Quidditch Hero–‘ Snape’s bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily’s eyebrows were travelling further and further up her forehead.

‘I know James Potter’s an arrogant toerag,’ she said, cutting across Snape. ‘I don’t need you to tell me that. But Mulciber and Avery’s idea of humour is just evil. Evil Sev. I don’t understand how you can be friends with them.’

Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Avery and Mulciber. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape's step…

And here too, Snape tells Lily that “he does not want to see her made a fool of’ Fool of what and why? I think it was because of some reason Snape suspected that Lily had fallen for James just as he had fallen for Lily. And he also knows (because James was probably asking Lily out every other day) that James Potter too, fancied her.

Snape was right about Lily IMO and Lily took a cold view about Snape's escape from death only because she was no longer his best friend and she did not like his friendship with Avery and Mulciber.

While Snape and Sirius are culpable no doubt, I cannot treat their parts in this incident equally. Snape was an idiot, no doubt to go into the tunnel when he had suspicions that Remus was a werewolf; but in his defence I think Snape would not expect Sirius to lead him to being bitten or dead. Werewolves were treated shabbily 20 years later in Harry’s school years, I think they would have been treated in a worse manner then and Snape may have enjoyed making up theories about Remus, but in his heart I think he would not have believed his theories himself, because in his wildest dreams he would not have imagined Dumbledore admit a werewolf into the school.

Sirius knew, though, and he sent Snape inside, and had no remorse about it then and did not repent 20 years later either. Snape could have been killed and Lily’s view was Snape was ungrateful. It was reading this that I had next to no regard of Lily, because I compared her to Hermione and Lily fell so short, it was amazing to me. Initially I did think Lily was not the girl she was portrayed in the first 6 books. I still think that, only after reading many posts here, I don’t have a very harsh view of her. But, her reaction to an incident that could have got her best friend killed or bitten and thus harmed for life is sadly lacking. I wondered the reasons for that and came to a conclusion, that it was around this time, perhaps even from the day James Potter rescued Snape that Lily fell in love with him. Then this memory makes sense, because her coldness and her lack of concern are okay; she has already started moving away from Snape. This is why I feel that Lily fell for James around that time.

------------------

Perfect’s post on the purity of Snape's love:

I do not feel that Snape's love is pure because he changed from the dark to the light and that enabled him to change. I respectfully disagree with that. I feel Snape's love is pure because it is untainted by anything; by Lily’s moving away from him, by Lily’s falling in love and marrying his enemy, by making babies with a man who made Snape's life miserable. Snape turned because he was scared Lily might die and he wanted to stop that. When he thought about Lily and the death eaters, Lily came first and he turned.

But his love for Lily was always there. He was not bitter with her, he did not disrupt her happiness, he did not try to kill James Potter and win Lily for himself, and he did not nag her to death by telling her every other day that he loved her.

Yes he did not listen to her about the DEATH EATERS wannabes. But I think he respected her and her wishes and her happiness even though he did not agree with any one of those. Because he wished differently. He wanted to be in James Potter’s shoes. But Lily did not want that and he respected her wishes and walked away. But his love never died and his love never went away. It was always there. That was what I meant by pure love. It was a love without expecting anything in return, knowing that Lily would never love him back and knowing that his love would never be fulfilled. That’s pure love for me. And it was unrequited too.

In conclusion I think it was the werewolf incident from which Lily started veering away from Snape. The reasons are not only Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber but also Lily's feelings for James.

Again, I don;t think Lily would have stayed friends James or otherwise, had Snape also practised the DA or had he taken the mark.

While many have said that the curse Snape cast was the sectumsempra, I think it is only speculation, because it is not stated clearly in canon, and it is not even implied IMO, because we see the effects of that curse not once (HBP) but twice (HBP & DH).

And it was also suggested that Snape must have indulged in casting a few dark spells; certainly he may have, but again, never once is it mentioned in canon. Even Sirius, Snape's worst critic, never said Snape practised the DA; he said Snape came to school knowing more curses than half the 7th years.

If Snape came to School knowing curses, then Snape who was Lily's sole informant for almost a year or so, would have also told her about it. Lily would have known all about the DA once she came to School and was sorted into Gryffindor. But since their friendship did not break and we don't see her remonstrating about Snape's dark arts addiction, I assumed Lily was okay with it, and maybe also read along with Snape, mainly because I don't see that as a bad thing. :)

Please excuse me for the very long post!

The entire post is my opinion. :)

This is why I feel that Lily fell for James around that time.
This still assumes that Snape was a boyfriend in Lily's mind. He wasn't. He was just a friend. She wouldn't have needed to stop being friends with Snape because she was attracted to James. It would be exactly like expecting Harry to stop being friends with Hermione because he was attracted to Ginny. Cho viewed Hermione as a rival, but Hermione was just a friend to Harry, not a girlfriend, and Cho needn't have worried.

She probably had a lack of concern about the Prank because Snape wasn't hurt and he was the one who was foolish for listening to Sirius. It was over and he was fine, except for feeling embarrassed. There was nothing to be concerned about. However, he did endanger himself because he was obsessed with following around the Marauders. Lily knew this and was tired of his obsession, hence her lack of concern. He brought it on himself and was lucky to be unscathed.

BTW, I think that Sirius just found Snape following them around and he popped off in anger that if Snape was so interested in where Remus was going, he should go down to the willow and prod the knot. I don't think it was a premeditated act on Sirius's part, and that would be very typical of how rash Sirius was.

Lily formed her own opinions about Snape based on what she knew about him. She wouldn't have changed her opinion of Snape because of James. Snape brought all this on himself. And that was his tragedy.

Is falling in love not different from seeing James as a boyfriend? I have probably seperated the two. :) Boyfriend/girlfriend to me means an initial attraction with scope for more.

Falling in love is IMO feeling inexplicably a *something* for another person without rhyme or reason. I think it was because Lily felt this for James, she fought it (especially because she did not like him very much until then IMO) and succumbed to her feelings only when they were half way through their 7th year IMO.

I respectfully disagree with you on the prank; if Snape was making a nuisance of himself; I think they should have confronted him and told him to get lost. I don't think that Just because Snape was being a git, it gave Sirius a right to send him into the tunnel to be bitten or killed and without feeling a bit of remorse for that action IMO.

We talk of remorse for Snape. But how much equally it is true for Sirius too? IMO Snape was culpable of sending the Potters to death, whether they died or not (and even when they did not take proper steps to protect themselves). I also think Sirius was equally culpable of sending Snape to death. Just because Snape lived, I don;t think it absolves Sirius of his actions IMO.

And if Lily thought the same as Sirius, I think I would be deeply disappointed in her and feel very let down by her IMO.

I think that the anaology with Harry /Hermione /Ginny is not an entirely fair one as it misses two very important parts of the Snape/ Lily / JamesDynamic.

Snape & James really don’t like each other where as once can’t really say that about Hermione & Ginny, they get on ok. It also misses the dynamic that both parties (ie Snape/ James) fancy Lily where as the same cannot be said to be true of Hermione & Ginny, only one of them fancies Harry.

Imo a better analogy would be Ron / Hermione / Draco (Ok, it’s a scary & wrong idea!:lol:) But I think that it’s a better parallel if one imagines that Hermione falls for Draco (ok it’s a stretch of the imagination and not a nice one :scared:).

How would Ron react?
I think Ron would pitch a fit and I sincerely doubt Draco would make things much easier!
Could Hermione be friends with Ron & go out with Draco?
I really doubt it.
I think that is a better parallel because it show the stress it would place on various people better (not that I can actually see Hermione & Draco as a couple)

I think Rons situation in this scenario is much closer to Snape’s in the Snape/ Lily / James Triangle because it reflects the tensions between the 2 boys more acutely.

Maybe the better analogy would be Draco and Hermione were childhood friends and then started drifting apart as Draco became friends with Crabb and Goyle, etc. Ron would play the James role rather than the Snape role. It's just one way of looking at it. :cool:

Is falling in love not different from seeing James as a boyfriend? I have probably seperated the two. :) Boyfriend/girlfriend to me means an initial attraction with scope for more.
IMO, falling in love is not the same as seeing someone as a potential boyfriend, but even if it was, it wouldn't matter in the situation, because Lily was not considering James as a boyfriend in SWM. I think she makes this perfectly clear when she tells him she'd rather go out with the giant squid.

Falling in love is IMO feeling inexplicably a *something* for another person without rhyme or reason. I think it was because Lily felt this for James, she fought it (especially because she did not like him very much until then IMO) and succumbed to her feelings only when they were half way through their 7th year IMO.
There is a difference between falling in love and a crush - what makes you think it was specifically "love" that Lily felt for James and that this was what Snape was jealous of? I see it far more likely and realistic for Lily to only be harbouring a crush on James (which she hated herself for), and it's perfectly logical for Snape to be jealous of a crush. Love is something much stronger, imo, and I don't think Lily and James fell in love with each other until James could be more himself around Lily, and she could see the real him; I don't think they fell in love until after they started dating. A crush, imo, is more realistic. I'm curious as to why you jumped to the conclusion of "love" when it came to Lily in SWM for James, before "crush".

5 while Lily had fallen for James, I also think that she refused to give in to those feelings, but because she was thinking of James Potter differently, I think subconsciously she also made her choice about Snape, by taking James’s side. I also think Snape knew it, and it is in this memory that we see Snape acknowledging it to himself and asking Lily. But his skills in explaining emotions being pathetic, he does a bad job IMO.

I don't think she ever took James' side. She was against what he was doing. Long before she had feelings for James, she was making excuses to her friends about what he was doing. James hated the Dark Arts and Voldemort, but James also hated him on a more personal level. James was willing to bully him in front of the rest of the school. Lily never condoned such behavior, so I disagree that she ever took his side.

I think Snape was angry, because Lily was complaining about a laugh (which it was not obviously) when it concerned Mary,

But it was a laugh, wasn't it? When Lily confronted him about what happened to Mary McDonald, he replied by saying, "It was a laugh, that’s all." That part disturbed Lily because it showed that he found humor in using the Dark Arts - something considered to be "evil" by Lily - against someone.

but she did not say anything when it concerned James Potter & Co.

I thought Snape was trying to change the subject when he brought up the Marauders. Lily wasn't talking about the Marauders because they had nothing to do with the conversation they were having.

(because James was probably asking Lily out every other day)

I disagree. There is no canon that ever says James asked her out a lot. We don't even know if he asked her out another time besides Snape's Worst Memory! I respect your view, but I disagree. If you want to talk about this further, it would be a better idea to discuss this in the James Potter thread or the James and Lily thread. :)

But, her reaction to an incident that could have got her best friend killed or bitten and thus harmed for life is sadly lacking. I wondered the reasons for that and came to a conclusion, that it was around this time, perhaps even from the day James Potter rescued Snape that Lily fell in love with him. Then this memory makes sense, because her coldness and her lack of concern are okay; she has already started moving away from Snape. This is why I feel that Lily fell for James around that time.

But how on earth is that love? I don't deny that she fancied him, but love? I strongly doubt that.

Is falling in love not different from seeing James as a boyfriend? I have probably seperated the two. :) Boyfriend/girlfriend to me means an initial attraction with scope for more.

I do think there is a difference. There is a difference between how Harry felt about Ginny at the end of DH and how he felt when he had feelings for Cho. His feelings weren't deep for Cho - it was mere infatuation. His feelings for Ginny, however, ran deeper. He loved her. The same could be said about how Ron felt about Lavender and how he felt about Hermione. There was a huge difference.

Falling in love is IMO feeling inexplicably a *something* for another person without rhyme or reason. I think it was because Lily felt this for James, she fought it (especially because she did not like him very much until then IMO)

I find it really hard to think that Lily was in love with James in her fifth year. Yes, she fancied him, but I don't think that her behavior ever implied that she loved him. I find it really hard to believe since she didn't know him too well at the time. She mistook his behavior around her to be arrogance when, in my opinion, it was insecurity. I doubt she knew any more about James than the other girls in her house did. It's just hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that Lily loved James when she didn't seem to know him well at the time.

and succumbed to her feelings only when they were half way through their 7th year IMO.

I don't think she succumbed to her feelings when they were in seventh year. I think she still had feelings for him and only acted on it when she saw that he was a more mature person.

Okay! :)

1 I feel that Snape and Lily were best friends until fifth year where I am assuming there werewolf memory took place. I am making that assumption on the basis that Harry does not think that Snape and Lily have grown again between the werewolf memory and the SWM.

I respect your view, but it left me with some questions, per the canon. I feel the problem with this conclusion is that if Snape and Lily were best friends until 5th year, in an untroubled relationship, JKR's statement about Lily doesn't make sense:

Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape if he wasn't interested in the dark arts and acts (paraphrase JKR)

If for 5 years, everything was just great between them and Lily saw Snape in a favorable light, why would she fall for James instead of Snape?

Snape has suspicions already about Lily falling for James or rather I think Snape suspected that Lily had fallen in love with James and he was jealous about it.

I respect your view and I would agree that Snape felt Lily had a crush on James, however, I don't feel the canon provides that Lily was in love with him. Did you mean a crush or were you speaking of something more deep?

Snape was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber and those 2 hexed Mary McDonald and Lily was not impressed. Snape was not in that prank, but Lily did not like the fact that Snape was hanging out with those who would play such a prank on Mary.

I respect your view; Lily complained that Snape was calling people "mudblood". Imo, Mulciber and Avery were doing this also. Wouldn't Lily dislike Mulciber and Avery for doing that also, or do you think Lily was only upset because they used dark magic on Mary? Also, do you feel that this was the first time they used dark magic?

while Lily had fallen for James, I also think that she refused to give in to those feelings, but because she was thinking of James Potter differently, I think subconsciously she also made her choice about Snape, by taking James’s side. I also think Snape knew it, and it is in this memory that we see Snape acknowledging it to himself and asking Lily. But his skills in explaining emotions being pathetic, he does a bad job IMO.

I respect your view. I feel that at this juncture, every reader will have a different interpretation about the 'internal feelings of Lily regarding James and Snape' :lol:. I do not believe there is canon which gives us Lily's POV about how she felt. In my judgment, Lily having lived with James Potter for 5 years in Gryffindor had formed an opinion of him quite different than what we saw on the train when they first arrived at Hogwarts.

There were many sides to James Potter, imo. In my judgment, there is no canon to indicate how Lily viewed or related to James during those five years. But in my view, if Lily had behaved in a cold, demeaning and derrogatory manner toward James for the entire 5 year period to that point, he would not have developed a crush on her. I feel that one of the reasons that Snape became jealous was because Lily and James actually did get along well enough that he saw them conversing from time to time and acting like normal housemates. Imagine if Snape only ever saw them screaming at one another, in my view, he would not have been worried about James in that light at all - not even the one time she happens to mention that Snape should be grateful because he'd be assured that she hated James, but was only speaking out of a sense of right and wrong, imo. Additionally, I feel that Lily would have also taken Snape's view of the werewolf incident immediately upon hearing about it if her opinion of James for five years had been that he was despicable and incapable of doing anything but pranking and molesting others - because she too would feel he could not act out of any sense of right or with a motive other than selfishness, imo.

Lily’s outward brushing off of James Potter also relieved Snape and he took her word at face value and that could be another reason why he was stunned the night of the SWM.

I respect your view, but I don't understand what you mean in light of your above statement. How do you feel that he could both feel that Lily had fallen in love with James and also taken her word that she would brush him off at face value?

I think this is the first time Snape was beginning voice his doubts and his suspicions regarding Lily. Snape and Lily were best friends, who met each other in school and out of it. They IMO knew each other very well and Snape IMO was suspecting that for Lily, he was no longer her best friend.

I respect your view, but do you feel that it was also the first time that Lily was voicing her doubts and problems with Snape's friends and belief system?

And here too, Snape tells Lily that “he does not want to see her made a fool of’ Fool of what and why? I think it was because of some reason Snape suspected that Lily had fallen for James just as he had fallen for Lily. And he also knows (because James was probably asking Lily out every other day) that James Potter too, fancied her.

I respect your view, but imo, the basis you rest the conclusion on (James asking Lily out every other day) I find difficult to credit because we are shown fairly clearly that James is arrogant as all get out :lol:. I would imagine he asked her a few times prior to SWM, but I feel that a popular Quidditch hero type - who is also arrogant - would not be caught pleading and begging Lily on a constant basis to go out with him. Imo, he would rightly feel that his reputation would suffer a great loss of respect - especially since he already knew she would say no. After all, imo, he resorted to bribery in SWM.

While Snape and Sirius are culpable no doubt, I cannot treat their parts in this incident equally. Snape was an idiot, no doubt to go into the tunnel when he had suspicions that Remus was a werewolf; but in his defence I think Snape would not expect Sirius to lead him to being bitten or dead.

Imo, the feelings of the two boys is less material than the rule breaking engaged in. I feel Sirius should not have told Snape how to stop the willow, and I feel that Snape, independent of everything else, should not have broken the school rules and gone near the tree. So what Sirius thought Snape would do and what Snape believed Sirius would do is not as important, imo, as what each individual did themselves.

Werewolves were treated shabbily 20 years later in Harry’s school years, I think they would have been treated in a worse manner then and Snape may have enjoyed making up theories about Remus, but in his heart I think he would not have believed his theories himself, because in his wildest dreams he would not have imagined Dumbledore admit a werewolf into the school.

I agree with you from the viewpoint of wizards in general. I feel that there was a lot of prejudice for werewolves - however, I think it was just as bad in Harry's time. But I would point out that not everyone shared the majority view. James, Sirius and Peter did not and imo, Lily did not either (because she immediately took up for Remus but was wise enough to know that he could not become ill every full moon). Imo, Snape did believe Remus was a werewolf because if he "deep down inside" believed Dumbledore would never allow Remus into the school as a werewolf, what did he really believe "deep down" inside that Remus was doing every month in the shack on the full moon?

Initially I did think Lily was not the girl she was portrayed in the first 6 books. I still think that, only after reading many posts here, I don’t have a very harsh view of her. But, her reaction to an incident that could have got her best friend killed or bitten and thus harmed for life is sadly lacking. I wondered the reasons for that and came to a conclusion, that it was around this time, perhaps even from the day James Potter rescued Snape that Lily fell in love with him. Then this memory makes sense, because her coldness and her lack of concern are okay; she has already started moving away from Snape. This is why I feel that Lily fell for James around that time.

I respect your view. Do you mean that Lily fell for James for a lot of reasons or simply because he rescued Snape?

I do understand your point regarding Lily choosing James over Snape independent of their views on dark/light magic. I believe canon describes James as being better looking and his humor, while dark, appears to have been more extraneous in nature, whereas I feel that Snape's humor, also dark, was more exiguous, focusing directly on people and their faults. I believe canon indicates James was popular, althletic and his friends were similarly minded; whereas based on the canon, I feel Snape was unpopular, non-athletic and his friends were similarly unpopular for reasons having to do with their belief systems. Looking solely at those factors, I believe Lily would see James as the better choice of a friend over Snape (speaking only in a platonic sense) (imo).

And yet, these distinctions I felt would have little bearing on Lily when making decisions about her friendship with Snape which, imo, she had been struggling to hold on to for 5 years. I believe the above considerations fail as factors in the actual decision that Lily was presented with because she was deciding whether to love James in a romantic sense and whether to remain friends with Snape in a platonic sense. Thus, I don't believe those factors would be particularly relevant to Lily's decision (imo).

I also understand your point of view that Lily could have allowed her crush on James to make her believe that she would have to choose between Snape and James because she felt they could never get along. I agree that for some people, the decisions might bear on one another because if she remained friends with Snape and became romantically involved with James, both relationships could be strained. However, I believe that puts Lily in a paradoxical situation because if she decided to keep her friendship with Snape and not allow her feelings for James to flourish, she would not be a very good friend to James; and if she ended her friendship with Snape and moved into a relationship with James, she would not be a very good friend to Snape. For Lily, imo, that would be a lose-lose situation. I feel that a person in such a situation loses no matter what they choose, so imo, it becomes irrelevant and they begin to weigh in other factors (like those I spoke of above) to assist in their decision (imo).

Nonetheless, all of the above does not take into account that Lily did not like Snape's interest in dark arts and acts, imo. I believe this is an important factor and dominates over all of the other above-discussed factors because JKR mentioned only this when speaking of the dissention within Snape and Lily's friendship (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007). In my judgment, Lily would not even reach the point of having to make the determinations I spoke about in the above paragraphs because of this, imo, overpoweringly significant problem in her friendship with Snape. :)


I feel Snape's love is pure because it is untainted by anything; by Lily’s moving away from him, by Lily’s falling in love and marrying his enemy, by making babies with a man who made Snape's life miserable. Snape turned because he was scared Lily might die and he wanted to stop that. When he thought about Lily and the death eaters, Lily came first and he turned.

I respect your view, however, do you feel that Snape put Lily first when he was mistreating her son and belittling her husband in front of Harry? I believe that is indicative of Snape putting his own feelings first because, imo, if his emotions for her were unaffected by anything else (her marriage), he would not have done those things.

But his love for Lily was always there. He was not bitter with her, he did not disrupt her happiness, he did not try to kill James Potter and win Lily for himself, and he did not nag her to death by telling her every other day that he loved her.

I would respectfully disagree. I feel in 7th term, Snape began hexing James at every opportunity out of jealousy and a desire to cause problems between James and Lily (imo - OOTP Careers Advice). I also feel that he attempted to "exchange the wife for the son" - which he admitted he had done in DH - TPT - feeling certain that James would also die, imo, and ending the Potter marriage in this way. I believe Snape felt that he might have a chance with Lily down the line if that scenario worked. That is my personal view, so I would have to disagree that Snape did not try to interfere with Lily and James' relationship.

I think that the anaology with Harry /Hermione /Ginny is not an entirely fair one as it misses two very important parts of the Snape/ Lily / JamesDynamic.

Snape & James really don’t like each other where as once can’t really say that about Hermione & Ginny, they get on ok. It also misses the dynamic that both parties (ie Snape/ James) fancy Lily where as the same cannot be said to be true of Hermione & Ginny, only one of them fancies Harry.

Imo a better analogy would be Ron / Hermione / Draco (Ok, it’s a scary & wrong idea!:lol:) But I think that it’s a better parallel if one imagines that Hermione falls for Draco (ok it’s a stretch of the imagination and not a nice one :scared:).

How would Ron react?
I think Ron would pitch a fit and I sincerely doubt Draco would make things much easier!
Could Hermione be friends with Ron & go out with Draco?
I really doubt it.
I think that is a better parallel because it show the stress it would place on various people better (not that I can actually see Hermione & Draco as a couple)

I think Rons situation in this scenario is much closer to Snape’s in the Snape/ Lily / James Triangle because it reflects the tensions between the 2 boys more acutely.

:lol: about the Ron/Draco interaction. Frightening!

If you were commenting about what I wrote about in that very long post about comparing Lily with Hermione, then the comparison I made was not about a trio, but about Lily and Hermione as friends. Lily as friend to Snape and Hermione as friend to Harry. :)

I loved Hermione when she took Harry's side in DH (she has been always supporting Harry), when she was at long last a couple with Ron. Even when ROn accused her of choosing Harry over him, Hermione felt utterly miserable, but did not chnage her stance. It was a friendship of this kind that saved Harry. I would say that Hermione saved Harry. Other wise Harry would have been totally broken and would ahve failed in his quest.

I compared that with Lily in the werewolf incident and I found that her reaction was in no way that of a best freind, for the reasons I have stated in my previous post. :)

DeliciousMoon & beatifically I see it this way from what I deduced from that memory in canon. Snape thinks Lily has fallen in love with James and he knows James too fancies her.

The point where I felt she may have fallen in love with James was in the same memory. Instead of her concern for Snape, she was of admiration for James. A best friend IMO does not do that. First there is the concern and then after the full story is given comes the admiration IMO.

I still think she fell in love; not infatuation and not a crush, but a genuine feeling that filled her, because if Lily was a person who could inspire Snape to the depth he did, to make James love her the way he did and was the strong and cheeky person whom Slughorn says should have been in Slytherin (Another reason I feel Lily could have shared or surely known about Snape's interest in the DA) I think the werewolf memory must have a deeper meaning to Lily's outward actions, which is what I have tried to analyse. Since she realised that she had fallen for a boy whom she did not like, I think Lily may have fought that feeling very hard. That explains why she did not go out ith James at once but waited for a long time. That for me also fits into Lily's character.

DeliciousMoon[/B] & beatifically I see it this way from what I deduced from that memory in canon. Snape thinks Lily has fallen in love with James and he knows James too fancies her.

The point where I felt she may have fallen in love with James was in the same memory. Instead of her concern for Snape, she was of admiration for James. A best friend IMO does not do that. First there is the concern and then after the full story is given comes the admiration IMO.

I still think she fell in love; not infatuation and not a crush, but a genuine feeling that filled her, because if Lily was a person who could inspire Snape to the depth he did, to make James love her the way he did and was the strong and cheeky person whom Slughorn says should have been in Slytherin (Another reason I feel Lily could have shared or surely known about Snape's interest in the DA) I think the werewolf memory must have a deeper meaning to Lily's outward actions, which is what I have tried to analyse. Since she realised that she had fallen for a boy whom she did not like, I think Lily may have fought that feeling very hard. That explains why she did not go out ith James at once but waited for a long time. That for me also fits into Lily's character.

In reply to the first paragraph in your post, RE: Hermione saving Harry and by extension saving Harry's quest, I have to ask, (I apologise, this might be better in the Harry thread), Just what do you think Harry did in these books? You think that Snape won the war for him and Hermione "saved" him from disintigration. I am puzzled by what you think his purpose in the books was. This does belong in theHarry thread, sorry.
My second puzzlement, how can a 15 year old girl fall in love with anyone? In my experience of 15 year old girls, they get crushes on a different boy every week. I have to be clear here, IMO Snape, as he is portrayed in the books has a severe case of arrested adolesent teenage angst in his feelings for Lily. He never moves beyond the emotional fixation he has on Lily, now as a literary device it works wonderfully, but as an exploration of a grown man's physche, it's ridiculous. And I have to say that I can find no evidence in the books that Lily had an interest in The Dark Arts other than telling Snape she thought they were evil.

I am greatly distrubed by Snape's love for Lily. It is not for any shallow reason like "Snape/Lily threatens James/Lily" (and for the record, I don't believe it does). Snape dedicated 20 years for Lily, but did he even know her? Sure, they were childhood friends, but only to ages 9-16. I doubt deep evalution of each other's character was happening in the early years of their friendship, because what young kids talk about morality and politics?In my experience you don't fall in love with someone because of morality or politics. I can't remember talking much about either when I went on dates. However these are very good reasons for a relationship not working out, or for not acting on your love.

It's worth pointing out that most of the time Severus was fighting "for Lily" she was dead - so as such he couldn't really know her. His point was that he fought so her life and death were not in vain. His love for her showed him that he had been wrong and that she had been right and that was the reason why he fought for the Order - I really can't see anything wrong in that.

My second puzzlement, how can a 15 year old girl fall in love with anyone? In my experience of 15 year old girls, they get crushes on a different boy every week. I have to be clear here, IMO Snape, as he is portrayed in the books has a severe case of arrested adolesent teenage angst in his feelings for Lily. He never moves beyond the emotional fixation he has on Lily, now as a literary device it works wonderfully, but as an exploration of a grown man's physche, it's ridiculous.
I do not see any reason why a fifteen year old girl cannot fall in love. Of course it is very easy for a fifteen year old to mistake a crush or infatuation for love due to inexperience however I do not think that that means that fifteen year old cannot fall in love.
While I agree that Severus certainly seems to have arrested development (I won't go into the reason here because that belongs in the Snape thread) however I wouldn't say that as an exploration of a grown man's psyche it is ridiculous. In my experience most people have one or two "issues" lurking in their psychological closets. Severus's are more serious than most because of his experiences. I don't find it ridiculous at all - in fact there is a thread on Snape the Byronic/Gothic hero in the pensieve which compares and contrasts Snape with other literary characters many of whom have a similar dark history and deeply felt unrequited (or unfulfilled)love

In my experience you don't fall in love with someone because of morality or politics. I can't remember talking much about either when I went on dates. However these are very good reasons for a relationship not working out, or for not acting on your love.

It's worth pointing out that most of the time Severus was fighting "for Lily" she was dead - so as such he couldn't really know her. His point was that he fought so her life and death were not in vain. His love for her showed him that he had been wrong and that she had been right and that was the reason why he fought for the Order - I really can't see anything wrong in that.

I respect your view and I agree with you that most of the time Snape fought on Lily's behalf she was dead. I also agree that Snape agreed to do it so that Lily's death would not be in vain. The statement ' so Lily's death would not be in vain' I interpreted to mean " so what she had died for would be fulfilled". I believe that Lily died to protect her son from death and she succeeded; but that would have been a vain effort if Harry's life was then prematurely ended or miserable, imo. I believe that Snape's behavior toward Harry did make his life more miserable and imo, in that way Snape was not promoting the idea of Lily's death not being in vain. In my judgment, keeping Harry alive so that he could be made unhappy, had not been Lily's goal. I do believe that any effort Snape made to keep Harry safe from a pre-mature death would have been promoting the idea of Lily's death not being in vain; however, when Snape adopted Dumbledore's plan to end Harry's life prematurely, he was no longer working in any way toward Lily's goal upon her death in my opinion because Snape continued to behave in a manner that made Harry unhappy and was working with Dumbledore on a plan that called for Harry's premature death.

I respect your view, but it left me with some questions, per the canon. I feel the problem with this conclusion is that if Snape and Lily were best friends until 5th year, in an untroubled relationship, JKR's statement about Lily doesn't make sense:

Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape if he wasn't interested in the dark arts and acts (paraphrase JKR)

If for 5 years, everything was just great between them and Lily saw Snape in a favorable light, why would she fall for James instead of Snape?

I think Lily may have grown to see Snape romantically (He looked at her so intensely she blushed from TPT -- DH) had she not fallen in love with james IMO. I think the 5+ years were great between them and everything fell apart because of both of them. Lily falling for James and disliking Snape's freindship with Avery. Only I feel had she not fallen for james, she would have taken more effort to turn Snape around and seeing the influence she had on Snape, I think she would have suicceeded. But that did not happen IMO.

I respect your view and I would agree that Snape felt Lily had a crush on James, however, I don't feel the canon provides that Lily was in love with him. Did you mean a crush or were you speaking of something more deep?

No, I meant she fell in love with him. Then, for me the werewolf memory makes sense. Have given my reasons why in that long post. :)

I respect your view; Lily complained that Snape was calling people "mudblood". Imo, Mulciber and Avery were doing this also. Wouldn't Lily dislike Mulciber and Avery for doing that also, or do you think Lily was only upset because they used dark magic on Mary? Also, do you feel that this was the first time they used dark magic?

I think she disliked Avery and so she disliked everything about him. It is like that with us also. When we fall in love, I think we overlook things in our lover, whichg we would not normally in other people. The same with out really close friends. When Lily was Snape's best friend, she was okay with arguing with him, and telling him everytime he called someone mudblood, not to do so. The moment she fell for James and started moving away from Snape, the same actions seemed not very nice. I think that's what happened to Lily as well IMO.

I respect your view. I feel that at this juncture, every reader will have a different interpretation about the 'internal feelings of Lily regarding James and Snape' :lol:. I do not believe there is canon which gives us Lily's POV about how she felt. In my judgment, Lily having lived with James Potter for 5 years in Gryffindor had formed an opinion of him quite different than what we saw on the train when they first arrived at Hogwarts.

If she did, she would have gone out with him then itself. The fact she waited for such a long time, makes me feel that she was fighting her feelings and the moment she accepted them, she went out with him.

I respect your view, but I don't understand what you mean in light of your above statement. How do you feel that he could both feel that Lily had fallen in love with James and also taken her word that she would brush him off at face value?

Since she was not acknowledging her feelings to herself, I think Lily never showed that outside. Outside she was still calling James an arrogant toerag, and trying to believe that her opinion of James had still not changed IMO.

I respect your view, but do you feel that it was also the first time that Lily was voicing her doubts and problems with Snape's friends and belief system?

Yes, as a *Not best friend*, that was probably the first time they were arguing. Only from Lily's side, not from Snape's side though. He still thought the world of her IMO.

I respect your view, but imo, the basis you rest the conclusion on (James asking Lily out every other day) I find difficult to credit because we are shown fairly clearly that James is arrogant as all get out :lol:. I would imagine he asked her a few times prior to SWM, but I feel that a popular Quidditch hero type - who is also arrogant - would not be caught pleading and begging Lily on a constant basis to go out with him. Imo, he would rightly feel that his reputation would suffer a great loss of respect - especially since he already knew she would say no. After all, imo, he resorted to bribery in SWM.

Well, if he could ask her out and tell her that if she did go out with him, he would never lay a wand on Snape, I thought he must have have asked her many times. Though I really don't have canon for that. :)

I must answer the rest of your post later; I have got to go (having my SIL & family over for a visit)

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About Eliza101's post on falling in love

I think one can fell deeply in love. I agree with Cathy's post about it. An example in the HP books is Hermione, who fell in love I'm sure with Ron as early as GOF. I also think Ron was in love with her, but both of them were too insecure to openly share that until later.

Lily was not insecure and I think she fell in love but was not willing to acknowledge it and so fought it hard. She was a year older than Hermione IMO when that happened for her IMO.

Only I feel had she not fallen for james, she would have taken more effort to turn Snape around and seeing the influence she had on Snape, I think she would have suicceeded. But that did not happen IMO.
She had five years to turn him around and things kept getting worse, not better. And frankly, no matter how she felt about James, she could have still remained friends with Snape. But I think she had already tried as hard as possible to help Snape see the dark path he was going down. She didn't view Snape as a boyfriend to date. It wasn't a matter of switching her dating interest from Snape to James. She didn't have any interest dating Snape, he was just a friend who happened to be male.

Whatever she felt about James wouldn't have affected her friendship with Snape. The fact that she may have been attracted to James wouldn't have affected the amount of effort she put into her friendship with Snape, nor the amount of effort she put into trying to get Snape to realize his bad choices.

All of this seems to shift the responsibility for the failure of the friendship onto Lily's feelings for James. The friendship failed due to Snape's mistakes, not Lily's feelings about James. I don't think it's fair to Lily to suggest she didn't try hard. There was nothing she could have done. He thought he was going to impress her with the Dark Arts and his DE aspirations. It was the complete opposite from what she was trying to get him to do. He clearly wasn't interested in her opinion on this.

This all slips into the what-ifs that would never have happened since the story was never intended to go in any other direction than it did. But I just don't feel comfortable shifting the responsibility for Snape's poor choices onto Lily. Snape was the one who blew it. That was the whole point about Snape's tragedy. It was his tragedy. He brought it on himself. He lost Lily and she ended up dead because of his mistakes. Lily is not to blame for Snape's refusal to listen to her concerns.

My second puzzlement, how can a 15 year old girl fall in love with anyone? In my experience of 15 year old girls, they get crushes on a different boy every week.

Lily was sixteen. She, like Snape, has a January birthday.

My mother met my father a year older than that. She was interested immediately. They are still married, 42 years later. :)


In these books - Ginny was 10 when she forst saw Harry. ;)

Lily was sixteen. She, like Snape, has a January birthday.

My mother met my father a year older than that. She was interested immediately. They are still married, 42 years later. :)


In these books - Ginny was 10 when she forst saw Harry. ;)

Ginny had a crush on Harry and yes OVER time it developed into something much stronger. I think Lily must have just turned 16, she could not have been much older than that. The books state that she started dating James in 7th year. I can find no evidence that she had strong feelings about him before that. She may have admired certain aspects but she was not looking for a romance with him earlier than that. Snape certainly had feelings for her, but she did not look at him in a romantic way. I get the feeling from reading the books that she was not looking for a romance from anyone.
Snape is a facinating character but not an admirable one, IMO. Lily cared for him as a friend but he betrayed that friendship when he called her the worst racist slur that exists in the Wizarding World. Any feelings that she had for him were probably killed right then and there. I know he was only 15, embaressed and upset, but come on. That was his best friend he just insulted

IImo, the feelings of the two boys is less material than the rule breaking engaged in. I feel Sirius should not have told Snape how to stop the willow, and I feel that Snape, independent of everything else, should not have broken the school rules and gone near the tree. So what Sirius thought Snape would do and what Snape believed Sirius would do is not as important, imo, as what each individual did themselves.

If Snape should not have broken the School rules for entering into the tunnel, then I think the Marauders are culpable for the many near misses that they had while they broke a whole lot of School rules to roam on full moon nights.

While Snape was certainly an idiot to listen to Sirius of all people and walk into the tunnel, I think that in no way absolves Sirius of his role in it. Sirius allowed Snape to meet a fully grown werewolf and be bitten or killed, frankly says nothing for him IMO. That snape was irritating him or being a nuisnace and they really did not know how to make him stop following them does not IMO give Sirius a licence to do what he did and Sirius does not exhibit any remorse. Not then and not ever IMO.

Snape is responsible to the extent I may call him foolish in this matter, because he believd a person with whom he knew only dislike and enmity. But I think Sirius is responsible to an extent that I would compare his culpability with Snape's handing over a Prophecy where he knew a baby would die. That the baby was Lily's child was known only later, but at taht time, Snape took the Prophecy to Voldemort knowing full well that he was helpign in the death of a baby and possibly its parents IMO.

Sirius too, IMO was culpable to the extent that he knowing full well that Snape would not be able to tackle a grown werewolf still sent Snape to meet it IMO. Not much difference IMO.

I agree with you from the viewpoint of wizards in general. I feel that there was a lot of prejudice for werewolves - however, I think it was just as bad in Harry's time. But I would point out that not everyone shared the majority view. James, Sirius and Peter did not and imo, Lily did not either (because she immediately took up for Remus but was wise enough to know that he could not become ill every full moon). Imo, Snape did believe Remus was a werewolf because if he "deep down inside" believed Dumbledore would never allow Remus into the school as a werewolf, what did he really believe "deep down" inside that Remus was doing every month in the shack on the full moon?

He had theories and since Remus disappeared every month, Snape suspected. But suspicions are only that. They are not certainties IMO. Snape was not sure, he did not know. He suspected IMO.

I respect your view. Do you mean that Lily fell for James for a lot of reasons or simply because he rescued Snape?

I think Lily re-evaluated James when she *heard* that James had at great personal risk rescued Snape from a monstor in the tunnel. It may have started from there. I still am not sure. I may have to read again. :)

And yet, these distinctions I felt would have little bearing on Lily when making decisions about her friendship with Snape which, imo, she had been struggling to hold on to for 5 years.

I respectfully disagree that Lily was struggling to hold on to a friendship for over five years. Because if that had been the case, I think they would have seperated earlier, much earlier IMO.

Nonetheless, all of the above does not take into account that Lily did not like Snape's interest in dark arts and acts, imo. I believe this is an important factor and dominates over all of the other above-discussed factors because JKR mentioned only this when speaking of the dissention within Snape and Lily's friendship (Bloomsbury Chat, 2007). In my judgment, Lily would not even reach the point of having to make the determinations I spoke about in the above paragraphs because of this, imo, overpoweringly significant problem in her friendship with Snape. :)

Yes I agree with this. I have been saying that this too made a difference, but not at that time IMO.

Had Snape practised the dark arts, had Snape participated in the prank against Mary or others, had Snape taken the mark, I think Lily would have broken off with him at once.

But the reason she gives Snape is that She knows that Snape would in the future, after some 2 years into the future will surely take the mark, because he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. Well that's not accusing Snape of anything; that meant Lily was taking an action based on what she felt Snape would do 2 years in the future. That was a weak excuse and it only showed that Lily was wanting out of their friendship IMO.

I respect your view, however, do you feel that Snape put Lily first when he was mistreating her son and belittling her husband in front of Harry? I believe that is indicative of Snape putting his own feelings first because, imo, if his emotions for her were unaffected by anything else (her marriage), he would not have done those things.

I would respectfully disagree. I feel in 7th term, Snape began hexing James at every opportunity out of jealousy and a desire to cause problems between James and Lily (imo - OOTP Careers Advice). I also feel that he attempted to "exchange the wife for the son" - which he admitted he had done in DH - TPT - feeling certain that James would also die, imo, and ending the Potter marriage in this way. I believe Snape felt that he might have a chance with Lily down the line if that scenario worked. That is my personal view, so I would have to disagree that Snape did not try to interfere with Lily and James' relationship.

Will answer in the Snape thread, hopefully tomorrow. :)

She had five years to turn him around and things kept getting worse, not better. And frankly, no matter how she felt about James, she could have still remained friends with Snape. But I think she had already tried as hard as possible to help Snape see the dark path he was going down. She didn't view Snape as a boyfriend to date. It wasn't a matter of switching her dating interest from Snape to James. She didn't have any interest dating Snape, he was just a friend who happened to be male.

Whatever she felt about James wouldn't have affected her friendship with Snape. The fact that she may have been attracted to James wouldn't have affected the amount of effort she put into her friendship with Snape, nor the amount of effort she put into trying to get Snape to realize his bad choices.

All of this seems to shift the responsibility for the failure of the friendship onto Lily's feelings for James. The friendship failed due to Snape's mistakes, not Lily's feelings about James. I don't think it's fair to Lily to suggest she didn't try hard. There was nothing she could have done. He thought he was going to impress her with the Dark Arts and his DE aspirations. It was the complete opposite from what she was trying to get him to do. He clearly wasn't interested in her opinion on this.

This all slips into the what-ifs that would never have happened since the story was never intended to go in any other direction than it did. But I just don't feel comfortable shifting the responsibility for Snape's poor choices onto Lily. Snape was the one who blew it. That was the whole point about Snape's tragedy. It was his tragedy. He brought it on himself. He lost Lily and she ended up dead because of his mistakes. Lily is not to blame for Snape's refusal to listen to her concerns.

I am not blaming Lily for what Snape became. I am only trying to say that Lily's affections affected her friendship with Snape IMO

My theory which I understood from the books was that Lily fell in love with James and that unconciously made her move away from snape. I am not saying that's wrong. If she wanted out of a friendship, well that's her right and she's entitled to it IMO.

Snape according to canon was not playing evil pranks at muggleborns, he was not roaming in the night of the full moon having near misses, he was not practising the dark arts; he was friends with Avery and Mulciber whom Lily did not like. She tells Snape so IMO.

As I have written in this post itself, I think Lily made the choice and then started moving away from Snape, citing his friendship with Avery and Mulciber and saying that she did not want to have to do anything with Snape because she was sure that Snape would becoem a DE after 2 years. That to me is not a valid reason. All it shows is Lily wanted out of that friendship, because she had chosen JAmes IMO.

Had Lily not fallen for James, I think she would have been Snape's Hermione and his saviour; she was after she died; I think she would have been had she lived too. Sadly for Snape, she chose love over friendship, deciding that she could not keep both IMO.

James, Sirius, Snape and Lily could never be friends together IMO, because two of the guys loved Lily and one guy hated the other enough to be careless and send him into a tunnel to be bitten or killed. That would not IMO make Lily feel that she could keep both. I think Lily was clever and she was shrewd. She knew that James and Snape were not friends and James's three frineds would also not be friends with Snape. That IMO would palce an enormous strain on her friendship and love. Lily chose one and cut loose the other IMO.

Does anyone else see the point about Snapes childhood being key, in that he would not have sought romance with a muggle? xxx

Snape vs Marauders - who is more to blame is not the topic of this thread and I want you all to drop this line of discussion. Thanks.

As I have written in this post itself, I think Lily made the choice and then started moving away from Snape, citing his friendship with Avery and Mulciber and saying that she did not want to have to do anything with Snape because she was sure that Snape would becoem a DE after 2 years. That to me is not a valid reason. All it shows is Lily wanted out of that friendship, because she had chosen JAmes IMO.

Had Lily not fallen for James, I think she would have been Snape's Hermione and his saviour; she was after she died; I think she would have been had she lived too. Sadly for Snape, she chose love over friendship, deciding that she could not keep both IMO.

James, Sirius, Snape and Lily could never be friends together IMO, because two of the guys loved Lily and one guy hated the other enough to be careless and send him into a tunnel to be bitten or killed. That would not IMO make Lily feel that she could keep both. I think Lily was clever and she was shrewd. She knew that James and Snape were not friends and James's three frineds would also not be friends with Snape. That IMO would palce an enormous strain on her friendship and love. Lily chose one and cut loose the other IMO.

Why did Snape need a saviour? We are all responsable for our own behaviour. It wasn't up to Lily to be his saviour, it was up to Snape to be a good friend and to lead a good life. He did try to lead a good life after Lily's death, a death that he was more than culpable for. A bit like closing the barn door after the horses have well and truly bolted, but better late than never.

Why did Snape need a saviour? We are all responsable for our own behaviour. It wasn't up to Lily to be his saviour, it was up to Snape to be a good friend and to lead a good life. He did try to lead a good life after Lily's death, a death that he was more than culpable for. A bit like closing the barn door after the horses have well and truly bolted, but better late than never.I agree. Based on the way that Snape heeded Lily's warnings during their childhood, he doesn't deserve one. Everything that happened to him- Lily leaving, becoming a Death Eater- was brought on by his own actions. I hate how he acts all "woe is me" outside the Gryffindor Common Room with Lily. He expects her to ignore that he called her a Mudblood? Not a chance.

Admittedly, Lily's death was a huge blow to him and he did not deserve that, but how much did he honestly care about her? You think he would have paid more attention to her in life if he was going to be that emotional. Maybe it was a sense of realization, though. It's possible that he finally realized what her warnings were, and what a fool he had been for ignoring them. Maybe those tears were also in anger at himself. I would like that, because crying in pity for himself there seems very selish IMO.

Does anyone else see the point about Snapes childhood being key, in that he would not have sought romance with a muggle? xxx

Hi HazelAnn! :wave: Welcome to the thread. :)

I see what you mean. :) His experience of Muggles was not a positive one, as he seemed to have a very unhappy relationship with his Muggle father. :(

But he did fall in love with a Muggleborn witch ...

I agree. Based on the way that Snape heeded Lily's warnings during their childhood, he doesn't deserve one. Everything that happened to him- Lily leaving, becoming a Death Eater- was brought on by his own actions. I hate how he acts all "woe is me" outside the Gryffindor Common Room with Lily. He expects her to ignore that he called her a Mudblood? Not a chance.

He knows he's blown it. That's why he camps outside the Common Room, hoping agaisnt hope that Lily will forgive him for the dreadful thing he's done.

She doesn't. :(

I don't judge her for it because, in her view, he has aligned himself with the people who want to become Death Eaters. But it's still a painful passage for me to read. I sympathise with Lily, but I feel for Severus.

Maybe those tears were also in anger at himself. I would like that, because crying in pity for himself there seems very selish IMO.

I can't imagine a worse agony than knowing that your own stupidity and actions helped to bring about a much loved friend's death. What a thing to have to live with!

I was moved by Snape's anguished reaction to Lily's death.

however, when Snape adopted Dumbledore's plan to end Harry's life prematurely, he was no longer working in any way toward Lily's goal upon her death in my opinion because Snape continued to behave in a manner that made Harry unhappy and was working with Dumbledore on a plan that called for Harry's premature death.
Surely this shows how much Snape has grown because he is no longer doing it just so Lily's death will not have been in vain. Rather he is really fighting for the cause - fighting against Voldemort because it is the right thing to do rather than out of some sort of penance. Harry's death was, from Snape's point of view, necessary for the defeat of Voldemort. Dumbledore knew that Harry wouldn't die, but Harry had to beleive that he would so Snape had to beleive that he would. The fact that Snape was able to put aside his personal mission to work "for the greater good" shows how far he has come IMO.

You think he would have paid more attention to her in life if he was going to be that emotional. Maybe it was a sense of realization, though. It's possible that he finally realized what her warnings were, and what a fool he had been for ignoring them. Maybe those tears were also in anger at himself. I would like that, because crying in pity for himself there seems very selish IMO.
Nice point! :tu:
I think he spent the rest of his life regretting that he hadn't paid more attention to her during her life. I think his tears were of anger and guilt - IMO he not only wanted to die but thought he should die - that he deserved to die. That is why IMO Dumbledore phrased his response the way he did "What good would that do? What purpose would it serve" (paraphrased)

I think Lily may have grown to see Snape romantically (He looked at her so intensely she blushed from TPT -- DH) had she not fallen in love with james IMO. I think the 5+ years were great between them and everything fell apart because of both of them. Lily falling for James and disliking Snape's freindship with Avery. Only I feel had she not fallen for james, she would have taken more effort to turn Snape around and seeing the influence she had on Snape, I think she would have suicceeded. But that did not happen IMO.

I think she disliked Avery and so she disliked everything about him. It is like that with us also. When we fall in love, I think we overlook things in our lover, whichg we would not normally in other people. The same with out really close friends. When Lily was Snape's best friend, she was okay with arguing with him, and telling him everytime he called someone mudblood, not to do so. The moment she fell for James and started moving away from Snape, the same actions seemed not very nice. I think that's what happened to Lily as well IMO.

Lily was not insecure and I think she fell in love but was not willing to acknowledge it and so fought it hard. She was a year older than Hermione IMO when that happened for her IMO.

Thank you for answering the questions and sharing your view TGW. :).

I respect your view and in reality, I would not mind sharing it. I feel that Lily falling deeply in love with James would show not only that she recognized her soulmate early on, but also that she acknowledged that a person who rejected all that Voldemort stood for and put his efforts into combatting that, and into Quidditch, light magic pranking, and resolutely sticking to light magic even when bullying, friendships with like minded people and working to build leadership qualities, was someone that she would rather call not just a romantic interest but a friend. I believe that in the scheme of things, that would show Lily to have had a good head on her shoulders because it would still show her realization that the fundamental belief systems and values of a person are important, imo.

However, I do not believe that canon provides Lily took this route; instead it suggests to me that Lily hated the dark arts in its entirety; but she looked past Snape's actions and seeming dark interests, acts and beliefs and saw that beneath all of that, there was good in him as well. Imo, the mere fact that Snape continued to be friends with Lily was sending the message to her that he was at minimum making an exception for her (with regard to being a Muggleborn and not sharing his dark interests). I feel that Lily believed that even an exception for her in this regard showed that Snape had the potential to feel that way about everyone (which later in life he showed he did). I believe that while during their friendship Snape never displayed that potential, Lily still felt it existed.

I think however, that she finally lost faith in that being a possibility and her view changed regarding Snape in that, imo, she determined that she was implying things about him that were not true - that is, imo, she determined that Snape actually did not have the potential to feel about everyone as he did about her and his dark interests, friends and acts were who he really was (thus the statement in DH TPT 'I can't pretend anymore', imo.)

As it turned out, Snape did have that potential, but was only able to find it within himself after her death, imo. However, during his friendship with Lily, imo, he was unable to do so.

So because I believe that the canon makes this fairly clear, I would have to respectfully disagree that Lily's feelings for James played any appreciable role in her decisions regarding her friendship with Snape. Imo, James, together with many other students, including Lily's other close friends, did likely influence her to see that one could reject the dark arts as she had; but I don't believe that these individuals were able to influence Lily's decisions regarding her relationship with Snape beyond that extent.

Imo, the only person who influenced Lily's decision about the friendship was Snape; I believe his actions, words, beliefs, behavior and values were the basis for her decision and those are the things that Lily spoke about when she ended the friendship. :)

Had Snape practised the dark arts, had Snape participated in the prank against Mary or others, had Snape taken the mark, I think Lily would have broken off with him at once.

But the reason she gives Snape is that She knows that Snape would in the future, after some 2 years into the future will surely take the mark, because he was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. Well that's not accusing Snape of anything; that meant Lily was taking an action based on what she felt Snape would do 2 years in the future. That was a weak excuse and it only showed that Lily was wanting out of their friendship IMO.

I respect your view, however, I am not certain what canon the "2 years in the future" idea is based upon. I don't recall Lily placing a time line on Snape's decisions with respect to his dark interests. In my judgment, Lily saw people like Regulus joining Voldemort at 16 years old, which was the same age that Snape was when they had the conversation and I believe she felt that Snape, together with his friends, would imminently join up with Voldemort. In addition, I feel that she had already witnessed Snape using dark magic (imo, in SWM the very day she ended the friendship), understood his view that using dark magic against others was 'just a laugh' and not distinguishing between light and dark magic (DH-TPT memory #5), heard him expressing blood purist views in calling others Mudblood (as mentioned in the ending the friendship scene DH TPT - and he'd called her one that day earlier in SWM) and carrying on friendships with other like minded individuals (DH TPT, memory #5). Thus, in my opinion, Lily was speaking of the present, not the future, when she spoke to Snape and ended the friendship.

I agree with you that Lily did not enumerate each activity, belief and value that she felt Snape was exhibiting, however, imo, she felt she had made all of that clear in their previous discussions as I indicated above. In my judgment, Lily saying that Snape was planning to join Voldemort indicated that he embraced the beliefs and values of that group which included all of these things. :)

As I have written in this post itself, I think Lily made the choice and then started moving away from Snape, citing his friendship with Avery and Mulciber and saying that she did not want to have to do anything with Snape because she was sure that Snape would becoem a DE after 2 years. That to me is not a valid reason. All it shows is Lily wanted out of that friendship, because she had chosen JAmes IMO.
What we were told in the books about Lily's concerns are canon. If that wasn't her reason, then we would have been told otherwise. JKR has also confirmed this. Further, the entire TPT chapter was one big reveal, in other words, all the things that JKR had been concealing in the previous books was finally being revealed and clarified (except for the blood protection which came later). And since everything else was being revealed, it doesn't seem likely that JKR would give us a false reason for Lily's motivation.

Based on the little canon we have, Lily would never hex or plan to hex anyone except in defense - and her 'cheek' did not extend to boldly stating such plans, in my opinion, and in this situation, from Snape's view, Harry was the agressor stating to do just that, imo. In my view that is why Snape took off points, gave a sneering smile and was going to enact a different punishment because there were no more points to take off. In my judgment, if he thought Harry was acting like Lily (i.e., saw Lily in Harry in that moment) he would not have likely taken points away or sneered. I believe he saw more of James in that moment in Harry that he ever had before. I don't feel Snape was suprised in the next term (HBP) when Harry did the same thing to him directly, "you don't have to call me sir" and that too I believe smacked of James Potter impertinence to Snape.

I respectfully disagree with you. As I wrote in the Lily Evans thread, Lily was a girl who was very bold and very brave and not afraid at all of speaking her mind, and the way James and Sirius were wary of her and her wand (SWM), shows me that Lily could just about take on anybody, if she wanted to. I think Snape saw only Lily in Harry at that time and was completely stunned IMO.

As I wrote in the Lily Evans thread, Lily was a girl who was very bold and very brave and not afraid at all of speaking her mind, and the way James and Sirius were wary of her and her wand (SWM), shows me that Lily could just about take on anybody, if she wanted to. I think Snape saw only Lily in Harry at that time and was completely stunned IMO.
I don't doubt that Lily was bold (I think she was too), however that might be just as much a James trait, as a Lily one. So I'm not sure which of the two Snape's mind would have jumped to (however imo, it usually tended to go for James since Harry looked so much like him).

As for Lily loving him back...i don't think it would have happened because Lily was friends with him, only because she felt that he wasn't fairly treated and that there was a person in him who was better that what others thought of him, but I never felt that she had any kind of passionate kind of affection for him, which came naturally with James. Anyways that discussion belongs elsewhere...

I don't know about this. In the werewolf memory, Snape gives her an intense look, and she blushes. I think Lily was aware of Snape feeling differently about her, only I think she had fallen for James and so did not reciprocate Snape's affections IMO.

Snape gives her an intense look, and she blushes.

Ah, well that isn't a certain proof...I mean I sometimes do flirt with my girl friends and most of them blush at the moment, doesn't mean either of us have romantic feelings for each other, its just the spur of the moment that leads to the said reaction. ;)

In the werewolf memory, Snape gives her an intense look, and she blushes. I think Lily was aware of Snape feeling differently about her, only I think she had fallen for James and so did not reciprocate Snape's affections IMO.
I always thought the blush was because Snape seemed to be thinking that she had a crush on James. She blushes right after Snape tells her that the marauders aren't as wonderful as everyone thinks they are (with Potter emphasized).

I'd blush at one of my best friends if they were talking to me about a crush of mine like that. ;)

I always thought the blush was because Snape seemed to be thinking that she had a crush on James. She blushes right after Snape tells her that the marauders aren't as wonderful as everyone thinks they are (with Potter emphasized).

I'd blush at one of my best friends if they were talking to me about a crush of mine like that. ;)

Ah...I guess you have understood the situation a lot better than me. :tu:

I always thought the blush was because Snape seemed to be thinking that she had a crush on James. She blushes right after Snape tells her that the marauders aren't as wonderful as everyone thinks they are (with Potter emphasized).

I'd blush at one of my best friends if they were talking to me about a crush of mine like that. ;)

I agree, that is how I interpreted it as well. :)

I always thought the blush was because Snape seemed to be thinking that she had a crush on James. She blushes right after Snape tells her that the marauders aren't as wonderful as everyone thinks they are (with Potter emphasized).

I'd blush at one of my best friends if they were talking to me about a crush of mine like that. ;)

Me, too. I even had the impression it was because Snape was using his talent with legilimency on her (perhaps even accidentally). Harry often thought, in the earlier books, that Snape was reading his mind and it made him uncomfortable, and that's perhaps how Lily felt, explaining the blush.

I always thought the blush was because Snape seemed to be thinking that she had a crush on James. She blushes right after Snape tells her that the marauders aren't as wonderful as everyone thinks they are (with Potter emphasized).

I'd blush at one of my best friends if they were talking to me about a crush of mine like that. ;)

I thought the same, too. :agree: It made sense for me to have Lily blush because Snape realized that she had feelings for James. If I wanted to keep my feelings for someone a secret from a best friend, I would be a bit embarrassed, too. It would also make sense because they were talking about James right before the blush occurred.

Of course people have the right to disagree since it's left up to the readers' interpretations. :)

Ah, well that isn't a certain proof...I mean I sometimes do flirt with my girl friends and most of them blush at the moment, doesn't mean either of us have romantic feelings for each other, its just the spur of the moment that leads to the said reaction. ;)

:tu: You may be right, I don't know about this. :)

I always thought the blush was because Snape seemed to be thinking that she had a crush on James. She blushes right after Snape tells her that the marauders aren't as wonderful as everyone thinks they are (with Potter emphasized).

I'd blush at one of my best friends if they were talking to me about a crush of mine like that. ;)

This I think is also possible just like what mysterious had written above. But I think it is open to interpretation, because Snape stared at Lily before he went off on a tangent about James IMO. And she blushed because of his look, rather than blushing becauase she thought of James IMO.

Well I have a third interpretation (or is it fourth? lost count) - when I read that, I thought Lily was aware that Severus was falling in love with her and this was what made her blush. I think she could suddenly feel, oh my, he has feelings for me! and that embarrassed her and made her uncomfortable at the moment - because I thought he was very obviously jealous.

Well I have a third interpretation (or is it fourth? lost count) - when I read that, I thought Lily was aware that Severus was falling in love with her and this was what made her blush. I think she could suddenly feel, oh my, he has feelings for me! and that embarrassed her and made her uncomfortable at the moment - because I thought he was very obviously jealous.

I think that is a very good possibility as well. I interpreted it to mean that she felt Snape was calling her out on her feelings for James because he'd just said 'I wanted to show you they are not as wonderful as everyone thinks.'

But you know, the two ideas are not inconsistent to me. Actually, I feel she might have been thinking both things because Snape's statement could both show his recognition of her crush on James and also make her aware that he too has feelings for her - which is why he is upset about it. Good call Yoana, I agree with both.

Well I have a third interpretation (or is it fourth? lost count) - when I read that, I thought Lily was aware that Severus was falling in love with her and this was what made her blush. I think she could suddenly feel, oh my, he has feelings for me! and that embarrassed her and made her uncomfortable at the moment - because I thought he was very obviously jealous.

:tu:

This is also a definite possibility, because I also feel that Lily was aware of Snape's feeling for her. I also don't think Lily is the type to blush just because Snape was talking about her crush. She seems to be portrayed as very bold and not at all afraid to speak her mind about almost anything. She would not IMO see the need to hide, simply because she was not doiing anything wrong IMO.

She did not disclose or accept James's offers to date, because she was struggling with her emotions and she was fighting with herself about her own love. That was why I think she did not go out with James and nor did she tell anyone about her feelings IMO.