Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2 [Archive] - Page 8

Beatifically

June 28th, 2008, 4:47 am

I'll probably get flamed for this but I always saw James and Lily as a bit like Darcy and Lizzie (Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen)Their first meeting didn't go well and that coloured their opinions of each other. He fell for her, she rejected him, and he realised that he had faults and changed, she realised that he actually had some very good qualities underneath and they ended up together. IMO the chemistry was always there. Which is sad for Sevvie :(

You won't get flamed! I looked at it the same way. (It's no coincidence that I like Lizzie/Darcy and Lily James a lot. :whistle:) That's a very accurate way of putting it, I agree. I think the difference is that we know that Draco changed for her whereas with James it's unclear why he changed. He could have changed for Lily, though.

I don't see either Lily or James having much interest in each other during their first meeting, but it's evident in the later memories that Lily is attracted to James. Especially during SWM, where she pays attention only to James and ignores pretty much everyone else. It seems to me that she is even displaying that interest quite openly by listing all the things she doesn't like about James. It's pretty much a list of instructions, and, despite being a prankster, James can follow instructions if he really wants to.

I agree. I don't think there was much interest with Lily and James when they first met each other. It said that James wasn't paying attention to Snape and Lily for a while and later towards the end of that scene we see him mocking her. Lily most likely disliked him at that point because she recognized Sirius and James' antagonism towards Snape. When she saw Sirius she turned her back on him, so I wouldn't put it past her to behave similarly when she saw James.

In short, whoever changed (read: obeyed :lol:) quickest got the girl. James was faster.

I don't think it was that simple. It didn't have to be one or the other that got the girl. Snape could have never gone the wrong path and Lily still wouldn't have had romantic relations with him. The same could have been the same with James. Lily could have chosen to date someone else besides those two. I don't think that her choice was ever limited to the two of them.

Obviously in "The Prince's Tale" we only get bits and pieces of their story, and that is all the cannon we have, but we can not say, IMO, that Lily didn't try hard enough simply based off of those instances. Lily seemed to be fed up; and by the way she was talking to Snape it was obvious that the argument over who his other friends were was not the first time they has discussed that. I do not put the blame of either Lily or Snape, but on just life in general. It is a fact of life that things and people change, and fighting a losing battle is pointless.

:tu: Well said! I agree completely. I don't think it's fair to say that Lily didn't try enough to convince Snape. She was obviously fed up with the argument, as you said. And, really, how long can anyone continue to have relations with someone that is doing something that goes against the person's morals? Many people divorce people who become addicts or alcoholics, and I don't think it should be said that he or she wasn't a good spouse for not straying the person away from the addiction. The blame for those problems often rests with the person themselves, not the person who has some relation with him or her.

And I think this was the hardest part of their friendship. As a half-blood in Slytherin House I don't think it would have been very easy for him to fit in, not to mention the fact that he seemed to be socially awkward. To be accepted into any group would most likely be a blessing for him-- just as Remus is happy to be apart of the Marauders, even when they themselves were something of a bullying group. I really do compare Remus and Severus' experience in Hogwarts, as being outcast and taken in. They don't want to go against their established groups, because they would then have no one and be at the mercy of the general population.

But is that an excuse for his behavior? Obviously he wanted to be accepted, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he found humor when the Dark Arts was practiced against other people and that he was against people whose blood status he thought was inferior to others'.

wimblemimble

June 28th, 2008, 4:57 am

But is that an excuse for his behavior? Obviously he wanted to be accepted, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he found humor when the Dark Arts was practiced against other people and that he was against people whose blood status he thought was inferior to others'.

No, it doesn't excuse it any more than Remus' lycanthropy excuses his own behavior, but it does give Severus' actions an explanation other than being a sadistic jerk. And, you can't really help but feel sorry for both of them (Sev and Remus). Neither of them were in a good, stable situation and both were pretty much set up for failure, IMHO.

Beatifically

June 28th, 2008, 6:01 am

No, it doesn't excuse it any more than Remus' lycanthropy excuses his own behavior, but it does give Severus' actions an explanation other than being a sadistic jerk. And, you can't really help but feel sorry for both of them (Sev and Remus). Neither of them were in a good, stable situation and both were pretty much set up for failure, IMHO.

It does give an explanation and I do feel sorry for him that he had to go through tough situations in his youth, but I still am against the fact that he supported pureblood supremacy and Voldemort. :shrug: (I don't see it the same way as Remus who didn't have anything that extreme, but that's a wee bit off topic.) I don't think anyone should be blamed for who he became other than himself. He was responsible for his own actions, IMO. Because of that I feel that Lily had every right to break off the friendship due to those reasons.

ignisia

June 28th, 2008, 6:18 am

Perhaps this belongs in a Remus discussion, but I think Remus was pretty close to following the same (or similar) path as Snape. They both wanted to be accepted by their peers, they both (we can guess) had been looked upon with suspicion prior to Hogwarts, and they both valued their friends enough to let them do terrible things. It was Remus' good fortune that he ran into people who did not aspire to be DEs. Otherwise, his lycanthropy could easily have embittered him like so many werewolves before him.

Opaleye_Draco

June 28th, 2008, 6:24 am

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

IMO Snape had a crush on Lily and as he was a little boy he was shy and was worried about approaching her. I don't think he would have cared much if she were a muggle - he may have still had a crush on her but he wouldn't have spied on her so much or be so determined to talk to her.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Snape was her only source of knowledge on the wizarding world and that would have been the basis of their friendship - if he hadn't known about the wizarding world perhaps she still would have accepted him as Lily was an accepting person however, his attitude to Petunia would probably have made their relationship impossible wihout his knowledge of the wizarding world.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

At first I think Snape would have dominated due to his knowledge, but I think their friendship would have become quite equal once they were both at Hogwarts.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Of course, it would be difficult to be best friends outside your house, however I think Snape probably didn't get on brilliantly with other people. Snape because of the dark arts and his "geekiness" and Lily because she was friends with Snape would have had to try to dispell alot of gossip about Snape. It would have been a difficult friendship from that point of view.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

They ended up with people who accentuate their strengths, in Lily's case her bravery etc. In Snape's his ambition and resourcefulness. Thus, their differences were magnified. If they were in the same house the friendship would have been easier and Lily's popularity would have balanced Snape's self-imposed ostracism and perhaps would have made both a little more balanced in temperament. On the romantic front though, I don't think much would have been different.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

The mudblood insult would have been the 'straw that broke the camel's back' in a sense, Snape's dark arts and his friends would have been worrying Lily as well as his insulting other 'mudbloods'. Snape would have been angry about LIly being in Gryffindor and standing up for him in front of James(maybe he sensed the possible romance?) and the other marauders and thus, their friendship would have been under alot of stress - the 'mudblood' comment probably showed Lily she didn't need Snape anymore.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Not really, it was doomed as Snape was already into the dark arts and Lily was probably as against them as the marauders. Maybe if Snape hadn't said the 'mudblood' comment the friendship woulf have lasted a bit longer, but due to their irreconcilable differences there wasn't much either could do except tak a full personality transplant.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

If they had saved it, Lily would have married James alot later, or maybe not at all. I think they would have slowly drifted apart and eventually be only on Christmas card terms or with Snape's help Lily may have become a DE (however, I think this is HIGHLY unlikely) and perhaps a romance from there would have been possible or maybe Snape would give up the dark arts (another pretty unlikely scenario) and end up being an auror or some such thing. However, it depends on either one character being stifled by the other and thus, neither would have been particularly happy.

wickedwickedboy

June 28th, 2008, 6:30 am

In my opinion, it wasn't a contest with Lily; I don't feel she was chosing between James and Snape. In my opinion, her choices were much broader and included all of the boys she was popular with. In my judgment, it was James and Snape who disliked Lily liking the other because of the animosity between them. I feel both wished for Lily to stop all association with he other boy. Based on what JKR has said, James realized Lily's feelings for Snape were only friendly, but that was too much and based on DH TPT, Snape seemed to realize Lily's feelings for James had a romantic element and that of course was too much. So while Snape and James did not see the situation the same way, they still both wanted her to disassociate with the other and so if there was any contest, I feel it was only between the two of them - in their minds.

I don't think James won the false contest, but rather Snape lost and I believe that was directly attributable to their distinct characters and behavior. James actually winning Lily's love came later and was again attributable to his behavior and character in my view - and I might add that I feel Lily won James' love as well due to her character and behavior which I presume continued to evolve through 6th year.

In my judgment, Snape's behavior never evolved in ways that were acceptable to Lily and that is why she didn't resume their friendship.

ETA: Ignisia, I realized in replying to your post that I was totally off topic, so I moved my response to the Snape thread. :lol:

Lord Godric

June 28th, 2008, 7:19 am

I don't think that is true at all-- I think he wanted it to be okay, and he tried to get her to understand him, but I don't think he ever actually thought that Lily was okay with the way things were going between them and his other friends. I don't think he took her for granted, because he knew that she didn't like what he was doing with his life-- but in that sort of a situation it would be really hard, potentially even dangerous, to try and get out.Yes, but the argument that I was criticizing was the one that stated Lily didn't try hard enough to keep their friendship afloat. When it really seems that Snape didn't either. Snape never did try to get out - at least not while Lily was still alive - he knew that Lily looked down upon it, but he had found friends, he had found a group that he fit in with, and he liked that. He didn't try as hard as he could have to keep their relationship afloat either. It was not just Lily.

However, I think that despite how much he cared for her and her friendship, there were other things in his life that were equally important. Snape always wanted to be accepted (even into adulthood, really). He found some friends in Slytherin who he believed fulfilled that need. To abandon them would be taking an incredible leap of faith. And considering Snape's previous experiences with other people, such trust in his peers and the adults around him is asking quite a lot.
I agree with RLF in saying that finding new friends and "a group" appeard more important to Snape than his friendship with Lily, not just equally important. Which is only more fuel to the fire as to why Lily was not the only one who didn't try hard enough.

That's a good point. Lily did pretty much make the decision for him. Before SWM, he was vacillating more than a pendulum. :lol: And, really, it wasn't as though calling her a "Mudblood" was part of any conscious choice. I would agree with Harry's view that it was a purely emotional reaction. He said something foolish and rude out of "shame and humiliation". Lily's reaction was an understandable one, but it also served to make things much clearer for Snape.Once again all the blame shifts to Lily. It is ridiculous to just say that it wasn't a conscious choice to call Lily a Mudblood. Of course it was. Although Snape was embarrassed he loved Lily. He knew how she felt about his friends, and about how they treated others like her, she asked how she was any different, and then Snape calls her a Mudblood. Which probably told her she wasn't any different. Of course Snape's reaction was purely emotional, but Lily had ever right to act the way she did, and she can not be the one to blame.

wimblemimble

June 28th, 2008, 7:24 am

I agree with RLF in saying that finding new friends and "a group" appeard more important to Snape than his friendship with Lily, not just equally important. Which is only more fuel to the fire as to why Lily was not the only one who didn't try hard enough.

What evidence do you have that suggests that Severus valued his Slytherin friends over Lily? Because everything I've seen shows him trying to juggle them both. Just because Lily didn't like them and he refused to leave them doesn't mean he liked them more. I'm sure they didn't like Lily, but he tried to stay with her as well. Canon seems to indicate that he did indeed try to straddle two incompatible groups equally.

And I agree it wasn't just Lily that killed the relationship, and that Severus' actions caused a major rift between them. I honestly don't think anyone has ever implied that Severus' downfall was only her fault. I think it was a hard position to be in for both of them.

eliza101

June 28th, 2008, 7:44 am

And I agree it wasn't just Lily that killed the relationship, and that Severus' actions caused a major rift between them. I honestly don't think anyone has ever implied that Severus' downfall was only her fault. I think it was a hard position to be in for both of them.

IMO opinion the one and only person to blame for Snape's choices is Snape himself. No one can be held responsible for another's actions. People can present a choice to you, which is what Lily did, but in the end it is what you do that matters. Snape was very young, but so was Lily. They both did a lot of growing up over the next few years. Lily seems to have done a lot of maturing in her relaitionships and beliefs. Snape stayed on the DE merry-go-round. He IMO does not seem to mature in a healthy fashion, that could be down to cicumstances, but he could have changed those circumstances if he had wanted to. No one held a gun to his head to run off to Voldemort with the information about the prophecy. He was a grown man and he did it all on his lonesome. No one can tell me that he did not realise that Lily would hold in abhorrance anyone who did such a thing.

wimblemimble

June 28th, 2008, 8:37 am

IMO opinion the one and only person to blame for Snape's choices is Snape himself. No one can be held responsible for another's actions. People can present a choice to you, which is what Lily did, but in the end it is what you do that matters. Snape was very young, but so was Lily. They both did a lot of growing up over the next few years. Lily seems to have done a lot of maturing in her relaitionships and beliefs. Snape stayed on the DE merry-go-round. He IMO does not seem to mature in a healthy fashion, that could be down to cicumstances, but he could have changed those circumstances if he had wanted to. No one held a gun to his head to run off to Voldemort with the information about the prophecy. He was a grown man and he did it all on his lonesome. No one can tell me that he did not realise that Lily would hold in abhorrance anyone who did such a thing.

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that no one, not even myself, was claiming such a thing. It is rather obvious that everyone of the series, be it Albus, Severus or James, has to take responsibility for their own actions. However, to claim that only Severus had a total impact on his life is to deny the effect of interpersonal relationships. No man is an island, and no action is taken soley due to themselves. Lily had some part to play in this whole affair, you can't just cut her out of it.

Also, it is very important to see the whole scope of Severus' story. His story is one of redemption, transformation, and change. He is a man who made terrible choices as a young man, but strove to make his life worthwile in the end. He made the best of a bad situation, and dedicated his entire life to righting the wrong he created. It is the redemptive pattern to Severus that makes him so interesting. Anyone can be a straight up villian, or just a guy who supported the 'good' side from the beginning-- but someone who changes, grows, and adapts-- now that is something to be respected.

Moriath

June 28th, 2008, 9:47 am

Reminder: How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. (”http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019”)

Please remember to make it clear when something is your opinion. Thanks. :)

ComicBookWorm

June 28th, 2008, 10:01 am

Anyone can be a straight up villian, or just a guy who supported the 'good' side from the beginning-- but someone who changes, grows, and adapts-- now that is something to be respected.There are aspects that can be respected, but I don't think that erases other aspects of his persona. I would have liked him had he not treated Harry and friends so badly.

The_Green_Woods

June 28th, 2008, 2:09 pm

From the James Potter thread

posted by LilyDreamsOn
Lily used the nicknames of the Marauders in her letter so I feel she knew about all of their stories; this, surely, would explain in a heartbeat the whole werewolf incident. I feel confident that James only told her after Remus trusted Lily enough for her to know his secret, and I think that's a great thing because it just shows how reliable and trustworthy James was.

Lily should not have known about the werewolf incident at all IMO. Not at the time she did, I mean. And she did not know all the facts; in fact I would say she had got the facts wrong IMO. You are right indeed, to say that James shoulf not have told Lily anything; it was not his secret to reveal; but you must also note that in the werewolf memory, Lily does not know that Remus is a werewolf; James and Sirius (I suspect them) did not reveal what was at the end of the tunnel; it looked to me that Lily thought that they too did not know for she used the word *monstor* and not werewolf. She may have suspected the monstor to be a werewolf because of Snape's theories, but that's all she knew from where ever she heard about the news IMO.

I assume she knew that Remus was a werewolf later, but even then I don't think she knew the whole story; but of course that's opnen to speculation because we don't have much canon on it IMO.

I also suspect that it may have been James and Sirius (I am leaning towards Sirius, because no one else knew Remus was a werewolf apart from the 3 Marauders, Snape and Dumbeldore and possibly the staff) And since Lily was not involved with that in anyway, I feel that if she must have learned of it, then she must have learned of it from Snape or the 4 Marauders. Snape did not tell her; we see that in the conversation; so that leaves the 4 Marauders, I remove Remus because he would not have told Lily and Lily says she heard, which means she overheard and since she overheard a lot of wrong details, I conclude she overheard a conversation that she was deliberately made to overhear as it were IMO.

And since I believe that it was around this time that Lily started noticing James, this incident convinced Lily that James was a hero and had a lot of what she thought was good in him for she believed James rescued his enemy and was impressed that she allowed her feelings which were just blossoming to develop and did not fight them anymore IMO.

The fact Lily believes For James rescued Snape, without knowing that it was Sirius who sent him in, in the first place, that this memory disturbs me so much. Lily IMO made the decision to move away from Snape and she chose James because of that action and because she moved away, Snape moved in the direction of the DE IMO.

I am not saying Snape's choices were because of Lily; they were not, but Snape was in love and I think he knew in that memory that Lily had got her facts wrong and he suspected that she had fallen for James. That was why he gets angry and says he won't let her and I took his sentence mto mean that he won't let her fall in love with James, because they (he thought James was in the prank too at that time) played not very nice pranks and everything IMO.

But he backed off and he was reassured when Lily told him what she thought of James and there too, I was struck by how much he believed in her words. He accepted them literally, making me feel that there was not much hidden between them when they were friends (Lily knew everything from Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber and his dark arts fascination IMO).

But Lily hid IMO her love for James and Snape suspected, but was reassured until the SWM, when in the night she broke off with him using the excuse of his friendship with the Slytherins and her opinion that Snape would surely sometime in the future become a death eater IMO.

That is what really gets to me IMO. Snape was not a DE; he was not involved even in one act of dark magic that Lily could throw at him; he was so open with her that she knew everything and by the intense blush, I think she also knew that Snape had feelings for her IMO.

I, sometimes feel, that Lily broke off because she had not only fallen in love with James, but knew that Snape also loved her, and broke off with him completely, because she was not able to handle it and tell Snape that *Sorry, but I love the man you dislike; the man with whom you have issues* IMO.

I think she thought it kinder to break off with Snape and cut him loose and she used the SWM to do it IMO. Just another theory. :)

The entire post is my opinion.

wickedwickedboy

June 28th, 2008, 3:23 pm

From the James Potter thread

Lily should not have known about the werewolf incident at all IMO. Not at the time she did, I mean. And she did not know all the facts; in fact I would say she had got the facts wrong IMO. You are right indeed, to say that James shoulf not have told Lily anything; it was not his secret to reveal; but you must also note that in the werewolf memory, Lily does not know that Remus is a werewolf; James and Sirius (I suspect them) did not reveal what was at the end of the tunnel; it looked to me that Lily thought that they too did not know for she used the word *monstor* and not werewolf. She may have suspected the monstor to be a werewolf because of Snape's theories, but that's all she knew from where ever she heard about the news IMO.

I assume she knew that Remus was a werewolf later, but even then I don't think she knew the whole story; but of course that's opnen to speculation because we don't have much canon on it IMO.

I also suspect that it may have been James and Sirius (I am leaning towards Sirius, because no one else knew Remus was a werewolf apart from the 3 Marauders, Snape and Dumbeldore and possibly the staff) And since Lily was not involved with that in anyway, I feel that if she must have learned of it, then she must have learned of it from Snape or the 4 Marauders. Snape did not tell her; we see that in the conversation; so that leaves the 4 Marauders, I remove Remus because he would not have told Lily and Lily says she heard, which means she overheard and since she overheard a lot of wrong details, I conclude she overheard a conversation that she was deliberately made to overhear as it were IMO.

And since I believe that it was around this time that Lily started noticing James, this incident convinced Lily that James was a hero and had a lot of what she thought was good in him for she believed James rescued his enemy and was impressed that she allowed her feelings which were just blossoming to develop and did not fight them anymore IMO.

The fact Lily believes For James rescued Snape, without knowing that it was Sirius who sent him in, in the first place, that this memory disturbs me so much.

I respect your idea of what happened, but there is no canon to support that is what actually happened. If it disturbs you, why not come up with another idea? For example, it is just as possible that students saw James dragging Snape to Dumbledore's office after the incident and wondered what was going on. So a couple of clever students followed and used a listening device to overhear what was happening. They overheard heard that Snape had been in the tunnel and James had rescued him before he'd been attacked by...but at that moment, Dumbledore discovered the device, and stopped the conversation to turn out the listeners. But they went off and told others what they knew, and those people told more people and so on. The story probably got embellished a bit as it moved from person to person and finally it came to Lily's ears. :)

Lily IMO made the decision to move away from Snape and she chose James because of that action and because she moved away, Snape moved in the direction of the DE IMO.

I respect your view, but I don't believe that Lily would credit James' act of saving Snape quite to that degree. I think she would find it admirable, but I also think she found his Quidditch prowess and the fact that he was intelligent (#1 or #2 in their year) admirable. I think too she found his dislike of the dark arts and Voldemort as well as his defense of those called Mudblood admirable. James was also good natured and funny in the norm based on the canon, and everyone thought he was wonderful (DH TPT). I believe Lily would find that admirable too.

So I feel that there were a lot of admirable things about James and such was his personality, I don't think Lily was at all surprised that James saved Snape. I think Lily felt that Anybody would have saved Snape if they were a decent human being. The only thing that made it unique was that James and Snape were enemies and I believe she already felt that James would not distinguish saving someone on that basis because his overall values did not extend to allowing others to die for whatever reason, imo.

So I would respectfully disagree that Lily was persuaded by this sole event to 'fall for James completely'. In my view, she saw him admirable in the same ways as always, this just reconfirmed that - but she still saw his flaws that held her back from asserting her feelings for him. :)

I am not saying Snape's choices were because of Lily; they were not, but Snape was in love and I think he knew in that memory that Lily had got her facts wrong and he suspected that she had fallen for James. That was why he gets angry and says he won't let her and I took his sentence mto mean that he won't let her fall in love with James, because they (he thought James was in the prank too at that time) played not very nice pranks and everything IMO.

I respect your view, but I do not understand the distinction you are making. If Lily knew the whole truth, she would still think it great that James had saved Snape because that is what a decent person would do.

Lily knew most of the truth. She knew that Snape had believed Remus was a werewolf; she knew that he'd gone into the tunnel, she knew that James had saved him and she knew that Snape believed James had saved him solely to save his own neck and that of his friends. That is canon (DH TPT).

I feel Lily did not believe Snape. Further if Lily had known that Sirius had told Snape how to stop the tree, and that Remus was a werewolf for certain, and that James had not been in on the prank, I do not believe would have changed her opinion that James had done a good deed by saving Snape.

Moreover, I believe Lily felt that James would have saved Snape whether any of his friends had been involved or not. James was not the type of person that allowed people to die that he could save - that is not something that JKR had to change about his character - that is something she had to change only about Snape's character. In my view, if that had been one of James' flaws, JKR would have pointed it out because she did indicate the character changes that James had to make for Lily to feel she was able to have a relationship with him and letting people die he could save was not one of them.

But Lily hid IMO her love for James and Snape suspected, but was reassured until the SWM, when in the night she broke off with him using the excuse of his friendship with the Slytherins and her opinion that Snape would surely sometime in the future become a death eater IMO.

I respect your view, but there is no canon to indicate that Lily was making an excuse to end her friendship with Snape and that she was hiding another 'real' reason. In my opinion, Lily gave her real reasons in canon, and that was a terrible memory for Snape (which is why he pulled it from himself for the Occlucmency lessons). Snape did not utter a single word of denial against any of the things she said and I feel that if they were completely untrue, Snape would have defended himself. (DH TPT).

That is what really gets to me IMO. Snape was not a DE; he was not involved even in one act of dark magic that Lily could throw at him; he was so open with her that she knew everything and by the intense blush, I think she also knew that Snape had feelings for her IMO.

I respect your view, but Lily did throw at Snape the fact that he was going around calling people mudblood like the other budding Death Eaters and we saw him do that to her in canon (DH TPT/OOTP). I feel Lily could also have thrown at him the fact that he had used a dark curse in SWM be it sectumsempra or some other dark cutting curse. Lily also had thrown at him that she detested his friends that he hung around because they did things like use dark magic against other students and Snape did respond to that, he said it was just a laugh. (DH TPT). Finally, Lily understood that they were all planning to join Voldemort and Snape appeared to be planning to do so right along with them - and he was planning on it according to JKR (he thought it would impress Lily - Bloomsbury Chat). So she was quite right in asking him if it was true and understanding his silence for a "yes" answer - which we know as readers that it was true.

So I would respectfully disagree that Lily was merely making a wild guess based on no evidence. In my judgment, the things I have listed above provided ample support for her to reach the conclusion she did.

I, sometimes feel, that Lily broke off because she had not only fallen in love with James, but knew that Snape also loved her, and broke off with him completely, because she was not able to handle it and tell Snape that *Sorry, but I love the man you dislike; the man with whom you have issues* IMO.

I feel that if Lily had immediately begun dating James, that would indicate that she may have made such a choice. But she waited over a year to do so which I feel means that she was not basing her friendship with Snape on her feelings for James at all. Another point is that Lily was pretty and popular like Ginny - she was used to many boys liking her and I feel safe in saying that she probably didn't like them all in return. I don't think she would have a problem advising Snape that she did not share his romantic interest because in my opinion, she had to tell many boys that. In addition, I whole heartedly disagree that Lily would have ended a perfectly fine friendship with Snape merely because she had feelings for someone he disliked. In my opinion, Lily would find it very petty of James to ask her to end her friendship with Snape if she were going to date him and she would turn a cold shoulder on James instead. :)

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that no one, not even myself, was claiming such a thing. It is rather obvious that everyone of the series, be it Albus, Severus or James, has to take responsibility for their own actions. However, to claim that only Severus had a total impact on his life is to deny the effect of interpersonal relationships. No man is an island, and no action is taken soley due to themselves. Lily had some part to play in this whole affair, you can't just cut her out of it.

I respect your view and I agree that no man is an island. However, I feel that each man decides the bridges he will build connecting his island to other islands. When Snape arrived at Hogwarts, he wished to be in Slytherin house and according to Sirius, he knew more curses than some 7th years; in addition, JKR has indicated that he had an interest in the dark arts early on (Bloomsbury Chat). I feel that is why he attracted the attention of people like Lucius, Avery and Mulciber who had similar interests (that is what I refer to by building bridges.)

Snape also built a bridge and had a friendship with Lily. Other students could have been friendly with Snape and likewise, Snape could have been friendly with other students and bridges could have been built that led to islands with those who did not hold dark interests. But it is a two way street and at Hogwarts kids with dark interests generally are not popular among the general students body if we use Harry's year as an example. Nor did we see kids like Draco or Crabbe reaching out to be friendly with others. I would imagine it was similar during Snape and Lily's years, although I believe the situation was likely worse in that regard.

I feel that Lily attempted to do all that she could to help Snape see the light over the years, but once she ended the friendship, I don't think Snape really had another source of influence on the light side that he had built a bridge with. But Snape was still surrounded by good influences at Hogwarts because most of the students were not budding Death Eaters; I feel Snape could have, but chose not to interact with those people and the influence was therefore lost on him. Like Draco, I think his home life served as an influence as well as his friends; but his own interests served as another in my judgment. Snape had some specific enemies who were on the good side, but the majority of those on the good side were not his specific enemies based on the canon and so I feel that Snape could have, but elected not to allow any of those influences to impact him significantly.

I would imagine that at 16, Snape's greatest influences were his friends from Slytherin and his home life - in terms of having the greatest impact on his thinking. I feel that is why he chose to follow the dark path; but that choice was made via his own reasoning and determination in my judgment. I feel it was the same for everyone. With respect to his friendship with Lily, I feel that later at 21, he was still not impacted by her influence in as much as his own romantic feelings for her. This is significant in my view because it says that while Snape may have changed sides for a less than stellar reason, eventually he actually did begin to reject the views he held while on the dark path. I feel that was mainly due to Dumbledore and the professors at Hogwarts, but what kept him there to receive that influence was his romantic feelings for Lily. :)

Snivelly

June 28th, 2008, 4:01 pm

I, sometimes feel, that Lily broke off because she had not only fallen in love with James, but knew that Snape also loved her, and broke off with him completely, because she was not able to handle it and tell Snape that *Sorry, but I love the man you dislike; the man with whom you have issues* IMO. I think she thought it kinder to break off with Snape and cut him loose and she used the SWM to do it IMO. Just another theory.

I respect your opinion, however I think the reasons Lily stated on page are her main motivations for breaking off her friendship with Snape. Perhaps it is true that she recognised Snape's feelings for her and wanted to break off their friendship in part because she knew James and Snape hated each other, but I find that highly, highly unlikely because at that point of time, she seemed to be denying her own attraction to James, not acknowledging it IMO. The way she throws every insult imaginable to her and every bad thing she could think of at James (while completely ignoring Sirius, I might add) shows that she is trying to convince herself that she loathes him and feels absolutely nothing for him. At this point of time, I'd doubt she'd break off the friendship because of James as she just had a huge spat with him; I hardly think she did it because she realises she loves James and not Snape.

Lily's main motivations for breaking up her friendship with Snape are exactly those what she stated on page, IMO: that Snape called her a mudblood and is trying to apologise to her, in spite of calling everyone else of her birth the same thing; that he hung around with people who would be happy enough to see her die; that his fascination with the the Dark Arts was so much that she found it beyond her reasoning. And I think these are all valid reasons as well. She may have had other concerns, but I think they were very insignificant compared to what she said. :)

ignisia

June 29th, 2008, 8:55 am

Once again all the blame shifts to Lily. It is ridiculous to just say that it wasn't a conscious choice to call Lily a Mudblood.

Ah, perhaps I wasn't clear here. I was saying that in calling Lily a Mudblood, Snape was not thinking "I am now choosing my friends in Slytherin House over my friendship with Lily".

In fact, I doubt he was thinking anything at the time. IMO, he was merely reflexively repeating on the same sort of insult he'd used before on people who weren't Lily.

He knew how she felt about his friends, and about how they treated others like her, she asked how she was any different, and then Snape calls her a Mudblood. Which probably told her she wasn't any different.

A bit of a timeline correction: he calls her a "Mudblood" before she asks if she is any different from the others. But I agree that his use of the word to her would make Lily feel that way. I think she did not see herself as different from the other Muggleborns the way Snape seemed to think she was.

Of course Snape's reaction was purely emotional, but Lily had ever right to act the way she did, and she can not be the one to blame.

IMO, there's blame on both sides. Snape made some bad decisions, that much is obvious. But Lily had a role as well, even if it is more subtle than Snape's choice to become a DE.
She had a responsibility to her friend. He was going down a bad and possibly illegal path, and she knew it. We only see her arguing with Snape (that's hardly going to make him eager to listen), instead of the obviously most sound and simple option of talking to the adults at Hogwarts about her friend. Lives and laws were at stake, so this was undoubtedly something the adults needed to know about.

And then there's SWM. Even before he calls her a Mudblood, we see her yelling at James and completely ignoring Snape, who is still fighting to free himself from the spells cast upon him. This is the biggest hint, IMO, of Lily beginning to distance herself from Snape (possibly unintentionally). She is allowing her attraction to James to take precedence over her concern for her friend.

I do not consider Lily a bad person or anything for all this, as she was 15 at the time. But I feel the same way about Snape. He too was 15, and had a lot more emotional baggage to deal with (hence his abnormally terrible mistake). Both of them did eventually grow up and that is what truly matters the most.

wickedwickedboy

June 29th, 2008, 9:21 am

IMO, there's blame on both sides. Snape made some bad decisions, that much is obvious. But Lily had a role as well, even if it is more subtle than Snape's choice to become a DE. She had a responsibility to her friend.

I respect your view, but in my opinion, friendship is voluntary and two way. She tried to get him to see the light and then she ended it. In what way do you feel she shirked any of the reasonable responsibility a friend has?

He was going down a bad and possibly illegal path, and she knew it. We only see her arguing with Snape (that's hardly going to make him eager to listen), instead of the obviously most sound and simple option of talking to the adults at Hogwarts about her friend. Lives and laws were at stake, so this was undoubtedly something the adults needed to know about.

Are you saying you don't feel that Dumbledore, Slughorn and those adults at Hogwarts who interacted with Snape and his budding DE friends were unaware of their dark interests?

And then there's SWM. Even before he calls her a Mudblood, we see her yelling at James and completely ignoring Snape, who is still fighting to free himself from the spells cast upon him. This is the biggest hint, IMO, of Lily beginning to distance herself from Snape (possibly unintentionally). She is allowing her attraction to James to take precedence over her concern for her friend.

Here I agree that Lily did not act in the way a reasonable friend would. I don't think she considered herself a friend to Snape at that point, but more of a friendly acquaintance based on his dark interests and dark acts. As such, I found her behavior admirable in stepping in to try and defend him. The part that I would question in Lily's behavior is that it appears she had not told Snape that she no longer considered him a friend in the way she had in the past. She agreed with him that they were still best friends prior to that (although that may have been quite some time before as there is no timeline in the memories).

I do not consider Lily a bad person or anything for all this, as she was 15 at the time. But I feel the same way about Snape. He too was 15, and had a lot more emotional baggage to deal with (hence his abnormally terrible mistake). Both of them did eventually grow up and that is what truly matters the most.

I respect your view. I feel Lily did her best and I think all of her actions were admirable in relation to Snape. I believe she tried, he would not listen and ultimately she ended the friendship. If that friendship had meant anything to Snape at the time, I feel he would have done something about it; but he did not and I feel that was because he too saw it as something that could not be fixed in light of his other interests which he had no intention of dropping.

I am not certain what you are indicating to be Snape's abnormally terrible mistake. Could you clarify? :)

ignisia

June 29th, 2008, 9:35 am

In what way do you feel she shirked any of the reasonable responsibility a friend has?

Perhaps I'm putting myself in Lily's place a bit too much, but if I were in her situation, I would not act the way she did. I would do absolutely everything to help my friend. I would go to every adult who could possibly help, even to the point where I'd make myself a pest to them until I got results. I would know that my friend was not someone to be yelled at and merely told what's right, but someone to be pitied and shown what was right. And even if I were developing feelings for his enemy, I would not make it so obvious, especially over something that seemed so important to him (like the Werewolf Incident).

Are you saying you don't feel that Dumbledore, Slughorn and those adults at Hogwarts who interacted with Snape and his budding DE friends were unaware of their dark interests?

They probably knew. But that wasn't the point of my bringing them up. Whether they were aware or not, it would have been better if Lily tried to tell them. It would have shown that she was pulling out all the stops to effectively help Snape.

I am not certain what you are indicating to be Snape's abnormally terrible mistake. Could you clarify? :)

Associating with/becoming a DE.

wimblemimble

June 29th, 2008, 9:51 am

wickedwickedboy

June 29th, 2008, 11:11 am

Perhaps I'm putting myself in Lily's place a bit too much, but if I were in her situation, I would not act the way she did. I would do absolutely everything to help my friend. I would go to every adult who could possibly help, even to the point where I'd make myself a pest to them until I got results. I would know that my friend was not someone to be yelled at and merely told what's right, but someone to be pitied and shown what was right. And even if I were developing feelings for his enemy, I would not make it so obvious, especially over something that seemed so important to him (like the Werewolf Incident).

Honestly, I think that is admirable and there are likely a lot of people who would go to no end to help their friends. Lily may have spoken to adults during the years, the canon doesn't negate that she did.

However, I feel that everyone reaches their limit. For some I feel it is sooner than others. 5 years is a very long time to struggle with this problem and I feel that Lily waited too long. Not because Snape did not deserve it, but rather because it can start to negatively affect a person who is in the situation that Lily was in.

The type of person Lily appeared to be in my opinion, would worry about her friend who seemed to be venturing down the dark path. She would spend a lot of time trying to convince him not to do so. Also, she would spend time making excuses for her friend and that would take a lot of time in rationalization and thought herself before she could present the excuses. She also had to deal with the ridicule of her friends and imagine trying to make excuses for Snape if he had just called one of them a Mudblood? Lily is not going to justify his behavior by saying 'well he doesn't do it to me' because she feels it is wrong. So she would find other excuses, his friends, his home, his dad, or whatever - but his repeated behavior would make her excuses begin to sound lame after a while.

And it was not just the excuses for his prejudicial remarks. Snape's other interests and acts related to the dark arts would also need excusing by Lily in that situation. Plus, she was popular herself, so imagine when she goes out on a date and has to answer questions like "why do you hang around him? You aren't into the dark arts too are you? You don't approve of Voldemort do you?" Not to mention her housemates who would have their own opinion on the topic and have no problem reminding her that all the excuses and explanations aside, Snape was still choosing to behave and speak the way he did and retain his interest in the dark arts.

Finally, her other friends are not dealing with this traumatic and major issue of good versus evil, so Lily has no real basis for understanding it except what Snape tells her. The problem is, for Snape, it was not a struggle - he was not going back and forth trying to make a decision between good and evil. He knew he wanted to join Voldemort because he thought it would impress Lily and also because it would make him powerful and impressive. So for Lily, it would be very difficult, especially at 15, to discuss the philosophical extengencies. Her strictures are limited to pointing out bad acts (it is wrong to use dark magic against others, etc.).

So I see it as tremendously burdensome on Lily to have retained the friendship for as long as she did. I feel that if she had been older she would have perhaps been more successful in using other methods than those she did, but at her age, I think it is expecting too much for her to have figured out sophisticated methods of assisting Snape with that issue.

They probably knew. But that wasn't the point of my bringing them up. Whether they were aware or not, it would have been better if Lily tried to tell them. It would have shown that she was pulling out all the stops to effectively help Snape.

Since canon does not negate the idea that she did speak to the adults, I don't feel it is fair to assume she did not and criticize her for it. In my judgment, she may well have. Why take the darkest view of her actions?

Associating with/becoming a DE.

Ah. :)

I don't mean that Lily would have to babysit Severus, or try and set up play-dates for him until he found new friends-- but she could have offered an alternative rather than just saying 'stop'.

I respect your view, but what type of alternative do you feel she could have offered Snape?

CathyWeasley

June 29th, 2008, 1:02 pm

Finally, her other friends are not dealing with this traumatic and major issue of good versus evil, so Lily has no real basis for understanding it except what Snape tells her. The problem is, for Snape, it was not a struggle - he was not going back and forth trying to make a decision between good and evil. He knew he wanted to join Voldemort because he thought it would impress Lily and also because it would make him powerful and impressive. So for Lily, it would be very difficult, especially at 15, to discuss the philosophical extengencies. Her strictures are limited to pointing out bad acts (it is wrong to use dark magic against others, etc.). I do not see that Snape deciding to become a Death Eater was him making a choice between good and evil. If it had been that clear cut he wouldn't have chosen "evil" - this is shown by the depth of his regret. This is bourne out time and time again in history. People make choices - bad choices because for one reason or another they do not see the evil in their choice - Yes there are some people who do chose evil, but most people make bad choices because they are blinded but some selfish motive such as ambition, or want to just stick there head in the sand like Cornelius Fudge. It is easy in retrospect to say Hitler was evil just as it is easy to say when Harry is at Hogwarts that Voldemort was evil because they had the complete retrospective view of Voldie War I. At the time though - and there is canon for this in the books it wasn't that clear cut, and many people jumpe4d on the Voldemort bandwaggon without knowing where it was headed. Now if Mr and Mrs Black didn't know the full lengths that Voldemort would go to to achieve his ambitions then it is rather unfair to expect a 16 year old Severus to understand that in wanting to be a Death Eater he was choosing evil over good.

wickedwickedboy

June 29th, 2008, 2:00 pm

I do not see that Snape deciding to become a Death Eater was him making a choice between good and evil. If it had been that clear cut he wouldn't have chosen "evil" - this is shown by the depth of his regret. This is bourne out time and time again in history. People make choices - bad choices because for one reason or another they do not see the evil in their choice - Yes there are some people who do chose evil, but most people make bad choices because they are blinded but some selfish motive such as ambition, or want to just stick there head in the sand like Cornelius Fudge. It is easy in retrospect to say Hitler was evil just as it is easy to say when Harry is at Hogwarts that Voldemort was evil because they had the complete retrospective view of Voldie War I. At the time though - and there is canon for this in the books it wasn't that clear cut, and many people jumpe4d on the Voldemort bandwaggon without knowing where it was headed. Now if Mr and Mrs Black didn't know the full lengths that Voldemort would go to to achieve his ambitions then it is rather unfair to expect a 16 year old Severus to understand that in wanting to be a Death Eater he was choosing evil over good.

I respect your view and actually I was speaking from Lily's view. In DH, she uses the term evil in making her distinction between the Marauders and the budding Death Eaters, so I feel she looked at it in terms of good and evil. Moreover because it is fiction and the HP universe, good and evil are more clear cut than in the real world. We don't have dark lords and black magic in the same sense :lol:.

I indicated I don't believe that Snape was struggling with the issue of good and evil in any case, so I agree if that is what you mean. He determined to follow a path that Lily saw as evil, but I would agree he thought it was fine. What Lily called evil, Snape called just a laugh and he defended his interests rather than excusing them, so I believe that supports the idea that he saw nothing wrong with what he was doing and saying in that regard. I also agree that most of those supporting Voldemort and the dark arts did not make the clear cut distinction between good and evil that other wizards did.

The_Green_Woods

June 29th, 2008, 4:26 pm

I do not see that Snape deciding to become a Death Eater was him making a choice between good and evil.

In fact I think say Snape chose good over evil, when he came to Dumbeldore on the Hill and told him everything, even Dumbledore was disgusted with him, even though Snape could have easily lied and not mentioned his asking Lily's life in exchange for Harry's, he never does IMO. And from that moment, Snape has always been choosing good over evil.

When he joined the death eaters I would not say he chose evil over good, because he never considered it evil; I think like Regulus, I also think Snape had no idea about what being with Voldemort would entail, and so in his mind, he was not really choosing bad over good IMo.

From the Marauders thread

I don't think this analogy works. I feel Snape had already betrayed his friendship with Lily when he chose the DEs over her. His chosing to being a DE is what I feel led him to unknowingly betray her again when he delivered the prophecy.

It was not Snape who broke the friendship; it was Lily; it was she who decided that Snape would become a death eater some 2 years after he finished school and broke offf his friendship; because Slytherins whom Snape had been hanging with had engaged in dark magic; not Snape; but Lily felt that Snape would become evil in the future; "you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" (DH - TPT) IMO.

Well, that's very unfair of Lily wasn't it? She accused him of everything he was not at that time; told him that he was a type of person who would surely go bad and evil and then broke off her friendship. What could snape say, when it was obvious that Lily did not want to be Snape's friend anymore IMO.

IMO Lily broke him and made him cling to the other side, terrified he may lose them as well IMO.

From the Marauders thread

I don't think this analogy works. I feel Snape had already betrayed his friendship with Lily when he chose the DEs over her. His chosing to being a DE is what I feel led him to unknowingly betray her again when he delivered the prophecy.

It was not Snape who broke the friendship; it was Lily; it was she who decided that Snape would become a death eater some 2 years after he finished school and broke offf his friendship; because Slytherins whom Snape had been hanging with had engaged in dark magic; not Snape; but Lily felt that Snape would become evil in the future; "you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" (DH - TPT) IMO.

Well, that's very unfair of Lily wasn't it? She accused him of everything he was not at that time; told him that he was a type of person who would surely go bad and evil and then broke off her friendship. What could snape say, when it was obvious that Lily did not want to be Snape's friend anymore IMO.

IMO Lily broke him and made him cling to the other side, terrified he may lose them as well IMO.

mysterious

June 30th, 2008, 11:26 am

Well, that's very unfair of Lily wasn't it? She accused him of everything he was not at that time; told him that he was a type of person who would surely go bad and evil and then broke off her friendship. What could snape say, when it was obvious that Lily did not want to be Snape's friend anymore IMO.

IMO Lily broke him and made him cling to the other side, terrified he may lose them as well IMO.

When Lily made that accusation of Snape wanting to join You-know-who, Snape's silence made it clear that what Lily was getting at was not entirely false and that is what he wanted eventually (assuming he wasn't dying for it like Bellatrix). So that is what sealed the fate of their friendship. So I wouldn't call Lily unjust. :no:

The_Green_Woods

June 30th, 2008, 12:28 pm

wickedwickedboy

June 30th, 2008, 1:01 pm

I think Snape was that shocked that Lily would use a reason she knew forever to break off with himIMO. It was not something Lily found out that day and was horrified by the company she was keeping. Snape was so open with her that she knew everything about him, from his home life to his hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. She also knew about his dark arts attraction IMO.

I respect your view. My impression was that Snape was not shocked because these were the things she had been complaining to him about all along (based on the memory before that.)

And where I feel she was a bit unfair was, she said that he would surely become a DE in the future. Eventually in the future did not mean that Snape would become a DE. She would not know what would happen in the future and for me the fact is that she did think Snape was no good already and would also be no good in the future IMO.

I would respectfully disagree that she said to Snape that he would surely become a death eater in the future. She posed it as a question and Snape didn't respond, ('you can't wait to join you know who, can you? DH TPT.) I feel she gave Snape a final opportunity, but he elected not to take it.

I think that that was why Snape was shocked that he could not speak to defend himself and that he never tried to win her friendship in the next 2 years. He knew that Lily was not interested in him IMO.

JKR said that Snape was planning to become a Death Eater because he wanted to be powerful and impressive and he believed Lily would be impressed by that. (Bloomsbury Chat). In my judgment, Snape could only be surprised that she had figured out what he was thinking, but he was thinking it so I don't think he'd find her words shocking. I also feel that Snape knew Lily was a smart girl, so I don't really think he'd be surprised that she would have figured that out. I feel he didn't try to regain the friendship because he knew he could not be friends with Lily and retain his dark interests and I believe he elected his dark interests over the friendship in the end.

Lord Godric

June 30th, 2008, 6:34 pm

DeathlyH

June 30th, 2008, 6:40 pm

Do we have any canon that says Snape never tried to win her friendship back in the next 2 years. Snape didn't seem to realize that Lily wasn't interested in him because he asked Voldemort to spare her. What were his plans then? Like Dumbledore said Snape didn't think about sparing James or Harry - just Lily.It doesn't seem he tried hard enough. We do have canon that he was involved with the future Death Eaters all throughout school, which includes their sixth and seventh years. That alone was enough reason for Lily not to want to bring their friendship back together. Snape still failed to see that she couldn't be with him while he was involved in the Dark Arts, and since he couldn't recognize that there was no hope of their friendship being resolved. If he did make any attempts to regain friendship, they were wasted because he didn't listen to her views of the Death Eaters.

The_Green_Woods

June 30th, 2008, 7:38 pm

I agree with wickedwickedboy. Lily was probably fighting an internal struggle with herself and an external one with all of her friends (including Snape) for 5 years. Trying for 5 years to repair a friendship or make excuses to keep that friendship alive is quite a bit of work to put into it. I am sure that Lily realized early on that her and Snape were going down different paths of life and even though it may not have been in her best interest to keep their friendship alive - she did so for 5 years. Knowing who Snape was, was there any possibility that Lily could have changed Snape? If she tried to be his friend for the next two years would he have not joined Voldemort? Would he have turned out any different?

I respectfully disagree with this. It is not as if, Lily was for over 5 years trying to correct a wayward Snape. They were best friends for 5 years. Then the friendship fell apart and Lily broke off with Snape saying that she did not want a friendship with a boy who she was sure would becoema DE once he left School IMO.

Thye shared some very good times together and for a long period as well. Otherwise I don't think Snape could have loved her as he did.

Do we have any canon that says Snape never tried to win her friendship back in the next 2 years. Snape didn't seem to realize that Lily wasn't interested in him because he asked Voldemort to spare her. What were his plans then? Like Dumbledore said Snape didn't think about sparing James or Harry - just Lily.

I don't think Snape tried in the next 2 years to win her friendship; if he had then the SWM would not have been his worst memory. I think after the SWM, they never spoke to each other at all IMO.

ignisia

June 30th, 2008, 7:46 pm

We see no evidence as to when exactly Snape began on that bad path and when Lily noticed. We jump from the scene on the train in 1st year, when they're getting along perfectly fine (although Snape's a bit socially inept, bless him) to 5th year when they're arguing. We have no idea when exactly this arguing started, so to say Lily was worried for 5 years, or 3 years, or whatever is merely guesswork.

IMO, it would have been a very gradual buildup from being on good terms 1st year to fighting 5th year. I highly doubt Snape immediately went around calling people "Mudblood" the moment he met his Slytherin comrades.

wickedwickedboy

June 30th, 2008, 8:02 pm

In my judgment, it was not so much dependent upon when Snape began outwardly showing negative tendencies. I feel that Lily would have begun having struggles from the start, merely for being friends with a Slytherin who was befriending budding Death Eaters like Lucius (based on his initial greeting). Plus unrefuted canon indicates at least one of Snape's school mates believed he entered Hogwarts knowing more curses than any 7th year, and I feel this would be something that would be addressed by Lily's housemate(s) in asking her why she hung around Snape. So I believe her discomfort started pretty much immediately. There is also the canon that lends to the idea that the friendship was troubled for a long while. In DH TPT, Lily says she's been making excuses to her friends about Snape for years.

The_Green_Woods

June 30th, 2008, 8:11 pm

That's what I feel never happened. Snape was the first person to tell Lily all about magic; Snape was the student who came to School knowing more curses than the 7th years; Snape at 9 would not be able to stop telling Lily about all that he knew, magic, curses and the dark arts IMO.

I think Lily knew about his dark arts attraction and I don't think that was an issue, for they were friends for 5 years. They would not have been friends for that long, when they belonged to different houses that were opposite and unfriendly with each other (the Houses I mean). I think Lily not only knew about Snape's dark arts attraction, she was okay with it as well IMO. Perhaps she also read along with Snape as well IMO. :)

ignisia

June 30th, 2008, 8:19 pm

wickedwickedboy

June 30th, 2008, 8:40 pm

We do have canon that at 15, Lily felt that the Dark Arts were worse than "ordinary" spells. But she could not have come to Hogwarts with that mentality, being a Muggleborn. She had to have picked up that attitude over the years. So it became an issue, although not at first.

I respect your view and while anything is possible, I find it highly unlikely that Lily did not find out right away the distinction between light and dark arts/magic, and how wizard society viewed these things in general. This distinction was taught to Harry in DADA in his first class during first year to explain why DADA was necessary at all (PS/SS), with an emphasis on the dark arts being something bad that required defending against. Also, the attitude of James and Sirius on the train was not an anomoly as we saw in Harry's year; many students that were from wizard families knew all about this issue and I believe they would also make it clear to Lily, likely before her first DADA class. Too, I feel the rivalry with Slytherin would be made clear to all of the incoming Gryffindors by the older students (although many of the youngsters already knew this as I pointed out above).

According to JKR, the students knew of Lily being friendly with Snape, just not that they called themselves friends (Bloomsbury Chat.) But at least one of her housemates did figure as much according to JKR (Bloomsbury Chat). So for the reasons given in the above paragraph, I feel it most likely that her housemates would immediately speak to her about her friendliness with Snape and the reasons why they didn't feel she should be friendly with him. That is when I believe Lily started in with the excuses.

I feel they would be excuses at that point because Lily would hear people calling Muggleborns Mudblood and recall that Snape had said that to she and her sister prior to starting Hogwarts. And I agree with Green that she likely knew that his interests in spells and curses and subject matter extended in to the dark arts. Thus, in my view, she would know that what her friends were warning her about had merit in association with her friend and she would make excuses for him.

ignisia

June 30th, 2008, 8:49 pm

A couple minor corrections/points:

This distinction was taught to Harry in DADA in first year to explain why DADA was necessary at all (PS/SS).

We know very little of Quirrel's classes in PS/SS, save that they were considered "a bit of a joke". We know nothing of what Harry was taught right away. For all we know, Quirrell went right into talking about his travels with African Princes and zombies.
We can guess at things, but unless there's direct evidence, it is just a guess without need to cite the source.

Also, the attitude of James and Sirius on the train was not an anomoly

That is true. Many people at Hogwarts do not like Slytherin House. But that does not have much to do with the Dark Arts-- a topic not touched upon in that scene on the train.

I feel it most likely that her housemates would immediately speak to her about her friendliness with Snape and the reasons why they didn't feel she should be friendly with him.

We do not see Snape "immediately" do anything that would perturb anyone enough for that to occur. Eventually, definitely. Lily says her friends have complained about Snape before. But not immediately...unless her friends were troubled that Snape was a Slytherin? :huh:

Lily would hear people calling Muggleborns Mudblood and recall that Snape had said that to she and her sister prior to starting Hogwarts.

Snape did not call either Petunia or Lily "Mudblood" prior to SWM. He derisively called Petunia a "Muggle", and that's all.

wickedwickedboy

June 30th, 2008, 9:02 pm

We know very little of Quirrel's classes in PS/SS, save that they were considered "a bit of a joke". We know nothing of what Harry was taught right away. For all we know, Quirrell went right into talking about his travels with African Princes and zombies.
We can guess at things, but unless there's direct evidence, it is just a guess without need to cite the source.

I respect your view, but I feel the title of the class would be enough. I think it would be fairly evident to her that one does not have to defend against something good; Lily was said to be smart by one professor in canon (HBP).

That is true. Many people at Hogwarts do not like Slytherin House. But that does not have much to do with the Dark Arts-- a topic not touched upon in that scene on the train.

I feel that since Lily had a friend in Slytherin house, when the first person indicated the rivalry to her, she would ask what the big deal was. That is when I believe the explanation would be made.

We do not see Snape "immediately" do anything that would perturb anyone enough for that to occur. Eventually, definitely. Lily says her friends have complained about Snape before. But not immediately...unless her friends were troubled that Snape was a Slytherin? :huh:

Being a Slytherin would be enough, in my judgment, if we base it on Harry's school term about which canon states that Gryffindors and Slytherins disliked one another on principle (HBP-Slug Club). And the behavior on the train indicates this rivalry was already in place in Lily and Snape's year. In my opinion, they would express the same view of Slytherins that those in Harry's year did - indicating it was the house of Voldemort and the other negative things Ron told Harry about on the train (PS/SS). I believe she would learn of Death Eaters and the like right away because Voldemort had begun his party and tales of his nefarious deeds would rapidly sweep across the school grapevine.

Snape did not call either Petunia or Lily "Mudblood" prior to SWM. He derisively called Petunia a "Muggle", and that's all.

Pardon, that is correct; I meant the derisive nature of his remark about Muggles in comparison to those already calling muggleborns "mudblood" when Lily arrived. Lily would also note who Snape was becoming friendly with and I feel these would be the people who would be doing it (i.e., Lucius).

I do not feel there is any canon to support the idea that Lily and Snape could exist in a vaccuum while attending Hogwarts; I feel they would be privy to all of the same influences, knowledge and interaction that we saw Harry undergo. Lily was an outgoing and curious little girl in my opinion (based on the memories) and I do believe she would be the same way with her housemates. JKR said she was popular, which she would not have been in my opinion if she were a timid loner who did not associate with any of her housemates. We may have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

RIPFRED

July 1st, 2008, 1:08 am

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily, because, it seems like he had never had any friends before, and she seemed, adventorus, a very interesting person, and a very kind person, something he was obviously (as seen in the penseive) not used to seeing at his home, she was also very well groomed, he as described in Deathly Hallows, was not, she, assuming how Petunia talked about Spinners End, probably lived in a very nice house, whereas he lived in a very poor house, so I can see him being nervous about approaching, because he was afraid of how she would react to someone like him, talking to her and Petunia, Snape probably guessed, would not like him, so he was probably a little afraid of, her rejecting him for a friend, because Petunia rejected him.
I don't think Snape would've been that interested in her if she wasn't magical.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
Lily was very kind and was eager to make new friends. I do think she would have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
Lily seemd like the peace maker; the one who, Snape could talk to, about his home life, the Marauders bullying him, and she would listen to him and try and figure out a way to help him and Snape seemed like the fighter, one who tried to keep their friendship going, even though she eventually did give-up.
As for them being equal, Hogwarts students, probably saw Lily, as a better friend and and an all-around better peron than Snape. But I think Lily saw them both as equal and I think Snape probably saw Lily as a better person and friend then she was. But I think it was, at one time (before Snape got involve in the Dark Arts), a friendship of equals.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Hogwarts obviously, did not help there friendship. He was unpopular, she was popular; he was a Slytherin, she was a Gryffindor, thos combinations obviously don't go well together.
I think Lily worked very hard, to mantain the friendship and often told him he needed to give up the Dark Arts, but once he called her a 'mudblood' that was the last staw for her.
I think Snape worked much harder to mantain the friendship, but failed miserably, even after he knew she didn't want to be friends with him anymore he seemed to, still try and convince her to be friends with him.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't think Gryffindor changed Lily that much, but I do think Slytherin change Sanpe alot; being in Slytherin there were alot of, kids, who were Death Eater's kids, racist and sly and being around that often, change Snape and made Snape, act like that.
I don't think Lily would've changed that much if she had been in a different house but I do think Snapt would have, if he had been in any other house, that was such a negative place, he would've turned out aot differiently, Avery and Mulcibler and his other futuere Death Eater friends wouldn't've accepted him and more people would have accepter him, seeing as Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, are alot more liked, by other people, than Slytherin, so more than likeley, he would not have ended up in same path he was going down. So therefore there friendship would have changed dramtiacally to.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it was all of that mixed together, Snape being involve in the Dark Arts, Sape having the friends he did and finally calling, Lily a mudblood, that was the last straw for her.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I don't think there were any different choices, beside Snape changing the path that he was already destined to go down.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I think if Snape had, took Lily's advice, they probably would have had a romantic future together.

The_Green_Woods

July 1st, 2008, 6:52 am

I feel that since Lily had a friend in Slytherin house, when the first person indicated the rivalry to her, she would ask what the big deal was. That is when I believe the explanation would be made.:)

I agree with this and also think that would have taken place in first year, when the older students would have told Lily all about Slytherin; why, even James and Sirius may have; shocked that she a Gryffindor was friends with a Slytherin. I also think that she would have known about the dark arts, mudbloods and everything IMO.

Lily was still friends, best friends with Snape for almost five years after this, makes me feel she was not only okay with it; she also did not think wrongly of Snape for being attracted to the dark arts IMO.

DeliciousMoon

July 1st, 2008, 7:31 am

Lily was still friends, best friends with Snape for almost five years after this, makes me feel she was not only okay with it; she also did not think wrongly of Snape for being attracted to the dark arts IMO.
But.. I always felt the whole point of Lily and Snape's friendship dying was because Lily did not find it okay. She expresses her disgust and opposition to the dark arts in the memory before the SWM scene quite clearly imo. IMO, she tells him quite plainly that she detests Mulciber and Avery, and lists the reasons why. They participate in dark magic - they used it on Mary McDonald, and she did not find it funny or ok imo. And this conversation takes place during their friendship. According to JKR, these were "loathsome people and acts" and Lily simply could not associate with him if he was drawn to them, imo. "I can't pretend anymore!" tells me that there was something really wrong with their relationship before the Mudblood incident even occured. I definitely think Lily found the dark arts wrong (especially since she fought against those that did participate in them later in her life when she joined the Order), and wanted to help Snape see how bad they were, and hoped he would go down the right path. In the end, she realised he was a lost cause imo.

I don't think Lily was ever okay with the dark arts when she understood what they were, and made the distinction between dark arts, and what kind of magic the marauders were using. I think Lily was friends with Snape despite that, because she wanted to help him, and didn't want to see him go down a dark path. I think that is a big reason for her staying by his side for those years.

wickedwickedboy

July 1st, 2008, 8:02 am

Lily was still friends, best friends with Snape for almost five years after this, makes me feel she was not only okay with it; she also did not think wrongly of Snape for being attracted to the dark arts IMO.

I feel if that were true, Lily would have developed romantic feelings for Snape because that is what JKR said in Bloomsbury Chat. She remarked that Lily might of become interested in Snape romantically if it wasn't for his dark interests and acts. So apparently Lily was against them during their entire relationship which is why that didn't happen. Moreover, James would have never become interested in a girl who approved of the dark arts in my judgment, because he destested them. My impression of the canon is that Lily always detested the dark arts, dark interests, Voldemort and blood prejudice attitudes. This is why I feel Snape and Lily had a troubled friendship throughout and why by 5th year, she reached her limit. I believe Snape's Mudblood remark served as a catalyst for her to definitively end the friendship, but it appeared to me to be all but over in SWM in any case because she didn't speak to Snape at all during the exchange until he called her the unforgivable name - as canon puts it. She spent the whole time chatting with James. I feel the canon supports this in DH TPT and OOTP/SWM.

Lord Godric

July 1st, 2008, 8:12 am

We see no evidence as to when exactly Snape began on that bad path and when Lily noticed. We jump from the scene on the train in 1st year, when they're getting along perfectly fine (although Snape's a bit socially inept, bless him) to 5th year when they're arguing. We have no idea when exactly this arguing started, so to say Lily was worried for 5 years, or 3 years, or whatever is merely guesswork. So then wouldn't that be also mean that it is merely guesswork to say Lily didn't try hard enough?

IMO, it would have been a very gradual buildup from being on good terms 1st year to fighting 5th year. I highly doubt Snape immediately went around calling people "Mudblood" the moment he met his Slytherin comrades.And I entirely disagree. If anything Snape probably did do just that when he was friends with the other future Death Eaters. He wanted to fit in remember.

The_Green_Woods

July 1st, 2008, 8:30 am

For over five years? I cannot see that happening in any friendship. Yes, Lily would ahve been with him for some time, trying to see the person she had been best friends with. But not for over five years, both in School and in the holidays IMo.

Lily may have developed a romantic interest in Snape, but sadly for Snape, I think she fell in love with James. From that time, I think she started moving away from Snape. I think that she thought she could not possibly have both her friendship with Snape and love with James and she chose love over friendship IMO. I also think she was aware that Snape was having feelings for her; another reason she cut him off IMO.

DeliciousMoon

July 1st, 2008, 8:43 am

For over five years? I cannot see that happening in any friendship. Yes, Lily would ahve been with him for some time, trying to see the person she had been best friends with. But not for over five years, both in School and in the holidays IMo.
Lily trying to help Snape for five years? I could see her that stubborn and determined, for sure. I think it's easier to pretend there's nothing wrong when you're younger as well.

Lily may have developed a romantic interest in Snape, but sadly for Snape, I think she fell in love with James.
JKR herself stated that Lily might have developed romantic feelings for Snape had he not been drawn to such loathsome people and acts (these are the concerns she lays in front of him in the memory before SWM, where she clearly shows what's bothering her imo). James is not mentioned as a reason. Since she rejects both of them after SWM, I don't think her having a crush on James during the time had much of an effect. She waited over a year afterall and I wouldn't doubt that she went out on dates with other boys in their grade (she was afterall, according to JKR, quite popular with the boys).

From that time, I think she started moving away from Snape. I think that she thought she could not possibly have both her friendship with Snape and love with James and she chose love over friendship IMO.
But the problem I see with this is that she rejected James at SWM and stormed off from him. She hardly "chose" James at the end of fifth year. IMO, she clearly rejected both, and moved on from both, until one of them finally changed. She did not find Snape a suitable friend anymore imo, and she did not think James a suitable boyfriend - in her opinion, both boys needed to grow up and she would have nothing to do with them until they did imo.

I also think she was aware that Snape was having feelings for her; another reason she cut him off IMO.
I hardly think she would be so cruel as to leave Snape because she found out he had romantic feelings for her. I agree with JKR - I believe Lily left Snape because she realised she could not be friends with someone who was drawn to such loathsome people and acts. Can you imagine a death eater and an order member getting together for tea and toast and a chat? I don't think Lily could (I certainly couldn't :lol:), and she realised that this friendship was not going to work if they continued down the paths they were headed - how could it? "You chosen your way, I've chosen mine," I think sums it up perfectly.

The_Green_Woods

July 1st, 2008, 10:25 am

Lily trying to help Snape for five years? I could see her that stubborn and determined, for sure. I think it's easier to pretend there's nothing wrong when you're younger as well.

But helping someone is not the same as being best friends. And she was only 11 when she would have certainly known about the dark arts and their *evilness* and would have also known that this was what Snape was addicted to. LOL she was not a saint or a martyr that she would have tried from that time until the SWM IMO. She would have left him long, long back. This is the most important and telling factor (that they were friends for over 5 years) which makes me feel that Lily also read over Snape's shoulders. I think she did not think it was wrong to read or know the dark arts; but to practise them and of that Snape was not guilty until he became a DE after leaving School IMO.

But the problem I see with this is that she rejected James at SWM and stormed off from him. She hardly "chose" James at the end of fifth year. IMO, she clearly rejected both, and moved on from both, until one of them finally changed. She did not find Snape a suitable friend anymore imo, and she did not think James a suitable boyfriend - in her opinion, both boys needed to grow up and she would have nothing to do with them until they did imo.

The SWM and the werewolf memory pulls down Lily's character so much IMO that I initially started out by saying she was not a friend at all to Snape; and used to wonder just what he saw in her that he clung to her so much. LOL I concluded love was really and truly blind IMO. :lol:

I kept comparing her with Hermione and even now I think Lily falls low under such comparison IMO.

In both the SWM and the werewolf incident what strikes me is the indiffernce and the scorn with which she treats Snape. And I think that is not because of Snape's dark arts addiction; had it been only that I think she would have been angry; furious, but she would not have been so scornful of him as I think she was. I think that was because she was no longer his friend; she no longer cared IMO. As she moved away, I think her concerns also changed. While I don't blame her for wanting to end a friendship, she did not wish to keep; I don't think I can believ she did her best or that she left only when she knew Snape could not be saved any longer IMO.

For, Snape was neither a death eater and nor was he practising the dark arts on others IMO.

I hardly think she would be so cruel as to leave Snape because she found out he had romantic feelings for her.

This is exactly what I think happened; but I don;t see her as cruel; only immature; I think she could not deal with both Snape and James IMO

wickedwickedboy

July 1st, 2008, 11:09 am

For, Snape was neither a death eater and nor was he practising the dark arts on others IMO.

I respect your view, however, the canon is not clear when Snape actually joined the Death Eaters. It could be that he was already a Death Eater when Lily ended the friendship and that is why he met her question with silence. Regulus joined at 16 and Snape was 16 at that time. I feel we saw Snape practicing dark magic on others in SWM and Lily was present in that scene as well.

The_Green_Woods

July 1st, 2008, 11:18 am

From the words Lily spoke to Snape the night of the SWM, I think it is clear that he was not a death eater at the time IMO.

'You don't deny that what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?" Bold mine

wickedwickedboy

July 1st, 2008, 11:27 am

ignisia

July 1st, 2008, 3:02 pm

So then wouldn't that be also mean that it is merely guesswork to say Lily didn't try hard enough?

Sure. Lily could have tried harder. Snape could have tried harder. Pink elephants could have rampaged through Hogwarts right after the events of SWM. Anything that isn't in canon is an analysis or opinion based off what we do have.

We can, however, evaluate how effective the strategies Lily definitely did employ were.

And I entirely disagree. If anything Snape probably did do just that when he was friends with the other future Death Eaters. He wanted to fit in remember.

And despite only having known him for a year or so prior to Hogwarts, Lily would have made excuses for him for five whole years...

:huh: I can't quite see that in someone like Lily. In Snape? Perhaps. He was so starved for company, he'd excuse anyone for any period of time...and he did.
Lily, not so much. She was never very alone, with a sister and loving parents, and she had only known this boy for a year or so. If he immediately started calling people "Mudblood", I don't think it would be that much of a wrench to just dump him after a couple months of this.

My guess is that their friendship grew at Hogwarts during the first year or two, to the point where despite her popularity, Lily and Snape became best friends. But then the influence of the Slytherins eventually crept into their relationship and began to taint it...

Edit: And I'd like to add that I do think he was influenced by the Slytherins in his first year, but not to the point where he'd start using the word "Mudblood". He only began with a dislike for Muggles. He had to have adopted the idea that all Muggleborns (except Lily) were scum over time. People don't change their views at the drop of a hat.

wickedwickedboy

July 1st, 2008, 3:54 pm

Sure. Lily could have tried harder. Snape could have tried harder. Pink elephants could have rampaged through Hogwarts right after the events of SWM. Anything that isn't in canon is an analysis or opinion based off what we do have.

We can, however, evaluate how effective the strategies Lily definitely did employ were.

And despite only having known him for a year or so prior to Hogwarts, Lily would have made excuses for him for five whole years...

:huh: I can't quite see that in someone like Lily. In Snape? Perhaps. He was so starved for company, he'd excuse anyone for any period of time...and he did.
Lily, not so much. She was never very alone, with a sister and loving parents, and she had only known this boy for a year or so. If he immediately started calling people "Mudblood", I don't think it would be that much of a wrench to just dump him after a couple months of this.

My guess is that their friendship grew at Hogwarts during the first year or two, to the point where despite her popularity, Lily and Snape became best friends. But then the influence of the Slytherins eventually crept into their relationship and began to taint it...

Edit: And I'd like to add that I do think he was influenced by the Slytherins in his first year, but not to the point where he'd start using the word "Mudblood". He only began with a dislike for Muggles. He had to have adopted the idea that all Muggleborns (except Lily) were scum over time. People don't change their views at the drop of a hat.

I respect your view. I don't know when Snape would begin behaving like the other Slytherins outwardly - although I feel he used the dark curses he knew fairly rapidly (hence Sirius' remark). However, as you indicated, I feel Lily would put it down to the influence of Snape's friends and her discussion with him would be much as we saw it in that memory - asking why he hung around these bad influences and recommending he did not. But Snape's answer to that would be reasonable - these were his housemates, and just because he hung around them didn't mean he was like them and that he had to "go along" with them in order to have friends (regarding any participation of his own).

As we saw in the memory, Lily didn't demand he dump his only friends, rather she indicated she herself detested them - likely because she not only did not like what they were doing, but she believed that they were influencing Snape to participate in all of those things as well. I think she felt this from the time Snape began displaying any of this type of behavior clear through to the end of their friendship (although with time to a lesser degree). In my opinion, that is why Lily finally said, "I can't pretend anymore" - basically that Snape was merely under the influence of others, imo. At that point I feel she faced the fact that Snape was doing these things of his own accord.

If you think about it, Snape calling Lily a Mudblood and using the dark curse in SWM would confirm this because I feel it was likely Lily placed her belief that Snape was working under the influence of others on the fact that he was different around her. That is, around her, Snape showed his 'true persona'. I highly doubt that Snape ever used dark curses, discussed his dark interests/Voldemort or used the term Mudblood when they were hanging out. So I believe she could thus have some faith in the illusion that 'the real Snape' was the person who hung around her.

I do feel that by SWM the friendship had greatly waned and Lily was already doubting herself on the issue of Snape's true persona. That is why I believe this incident would be the straw that broke the camel's back for her, proving once and for all that Snape's true persona was what he displayed both when he was with her and when he was not.

Snivelly

July 1st, 2008, 4:37 pm

I respect your view. I don't know when Snape would begin behaving like the other Slytherins outwardly - although I feel he used the dark curses he knew fairly rapidly (hence Sirius' remark). However, as you indicated, I feel Lily would put it down to the influence of Snape's friends and her discussion with him would be much as we saw it in that memory - asking why he hung around these bad influences and recommending he did not. But Snape's answer to that would be reasonable - these were his housemates, and just because he hung around them didn't mean he was like them and that he had to "go along" with them in order to have friends (regarding any participation of his own).

As we saw in the memory, Lily didn't demand he dump his only friends, rather she indicated she herself detested them - likely because she not only did not like what they were doing, but she believed that they were influencing Snape to participate in all of those things as well. I think she felt this from the time Snape began displaying any of this type of behavior clear through to the end of their friendship (although with time to a lesser degree). In my opinion, that is why Lily finally said, "I can't pretend anymore" - basically that Snape was merely under the influence of others, imo. At that point I feel she faced the fact that Snape was doing these things of his own accord.

If you think about it, Snape calling Lily a Mudblood and using the dark curse in SWM would confirm this because I feel it was likely Lily placed her belief that Snape was working under the influence of others on the fact that he was different around her. That is, around her, Snape showed his 'true persona'. I highly doubt that Snape ever used dark curses, discussed his dark interests/Voldemort or used the term Mudblood when they were hanging out. So I believe she could thus have some faith in the illusion that 'the real Snape' was the person who hung around her.

I do feel that by SWM the friendship had greatly waned and Lily was already doubting herself on the issue of Snape's true persona. That is why I believe this incident would be the straw that broke the camel's back for her, proving once and for all that Snape's true persona was what he displayed both when he was with her and when he was not.

Excellent post! :tu: I see it the same way; in my opinion when Lily was asked by her friends why she hung out with Snape when he called Muggleborns mudbloods and practiced the Dark Arts/had friends practicing the Dark Arts, I can see Lily responding with, "But Severus isn't really like that. It's just that he's with bad company and that's why he shows that he hates Muggleborns. He isn't like that with me." I can even think of a falling out or two she might have had with a friend, when said friend was called a mudblood by Snape and Lily still tried to defend him. But I think later on Lily knew deep down that she wasn't quite being honest with herself, and that she had been making excuses all along. And when it was finally becoming too much, and Snape called her a mudblood, it was the last straw. She'd been pretending to herself that the Snape that she hung out with had been the real Snape (that is, the Snape that was nice to her knowing that she was a muggleborn, and was a good person essentially), but after SWM it was impossible for her to believe so IMO. Especially since she states, "You've chosen your way and I've chosen mine." and Snape refuses to deny her accusation that he was intending to join Voldemort.

The_Green_Woods

July 1st, 2008, 6:21 pm

I meant Lily didn't know, only Snape would know that. That is perhaps why he met the statement you provided with silence; because he'd already joined, but didn't wish to admit it. Snape believed joining would impress Lily according to JKR (Bloomsbury Chat), but I feel she made it clear that night that it would not impress her "you chose your path and I chose mine" - plus the statement you provided also shows she was against the whole dark arts regime, so I believe Snape understood at that point that it wouldn't impress her and may have been tongue tied because he didn't wish to admit he'd already joined.

I really don't think there is any canon for the assumption that Snape became a death eater by the SWM. Not only Lily, but no one else says he was a death eater while still in school IMO.

IMO LIly's words were all wrong. She was presuming something about Snape, which was not true at that time IMO, for we don;t have anything in canon to say so. She was against the dark arts at that time; I don't think she was like that always. The timeline of their friendship is too long. I can agree with your your posts later and also Snively's if the timeline was just one year or maximum 2 years. But they were friends for more than 5 years and they were together in the holidays too IMO.

And seeing Lily knew about Snape hanging out with Avery and Co. and that I never see Snape lying to her or indeed anyone else throughout the series except, Voldemort, perhaps, if he were a DE, I think Lily would have known about it, and she would have addressed the issue during the SWM IMO.

And the *dark curse* Snape cast during the SWM is also an assumption IMO. We have nothing in canon. his Lily detests dark magic. She would have surely spoken scathing words to Snape and asked him to stop using dark magic. Sirius was there too; he would have known if that curse was dark magic; he would have shouted and also let loose some hexes on his own IMO. I don't think it was the sectumsempra or any oyther dark curse. I think it was the cutting spell, seeing that James never needed the counter, dittany or the fact he had a scar mentioned anywhere in the book IMO.

Snivelly

July 1st, 2008, 6:47 pm

IMO LIly's words were all wrong. She was presuming something about Snape, which was not true at that time IMO, for we don;t have anything in canon to say so.

Uh, I've always seen it the other way round. Lily's words are canon proof IMO that Snape had been delving into the Dark Arts/he had friends who were practicing the Dark Arts/he was intending to join Voldemort. Neither we, the readers, nor Harry, whose POV we see through, ever spent as much time with teenage Snape or ever knew him like Lily did. JKR often uses this method to convey information which she can't show through actual scenes; that James grew up and matured after SWM, that Ginny is a very powerful witch etc. Unless we have canon elsewhere to dispute these words, I think Lily's claims stand true. Just my opinion.

wickedwickedboy

July 1st, 2008, 6:52 pm

I really don't think there is any canon for the assumption that Snape became a death eater by the SWM. Not only Lily, but no one else says he was a death eater while still in school IMO.

Actually I don't believe there is canon in the text that anyone joined early, JKR informed us that Regulus joined at 16. So that would be the only basis upon which I would find that some students joined early in the days of the 1st war. Draco too joined while just 16 (HBP).

IMO LIly's words were all wrong. She was presuming something about Snape, which was not true at that time IMO, for we don;t have anything in canon to say so.

I would respectfully disagree. Lily asked Snape if he was planning to join, she did not accuse him of being a Death Eater. In my judgment, she did not wish to be friends with someone who was even considering joining Voldemort.

She was against the dark arts at that time; I don't think she was like that always. The timeline of their friendship is too long. I can agree with your your posts later and also Snively's if the timeline was just one year or maximum 2 years. But they were friends for more than 5 years and they were together in the holidays too IMO.

In my opinion, this was because Snape did not exhibit his dark arts interests before Lily. Even before they reached Hogwarts he understood he had to keep some of his beliefs from her:

"I don't want to talk to you," she said in a constricted voice.

"Why not?"

"Tuney h-hates me. Because we saw that letter from Dumbledore."

"So what?"

She threw him a look of deep dislike.

'So she's my sister!"

"She's only a-" He caught himsel quickly;

Lily, too busy trying to wipe her eyes without being noticed, did not hear him.

And seeing Lily knew about Snape hanging out with Avery and Co. and that I never see Snape lying to her or indeed anyone else throughout the series

I would not call it lying precisely either; I feel that Snape simply did not say or do certain things when they hung out together - like in the above scene I provided. Snape knew that she was against the dark arts and Voldemort, so I feel he would not bring those things up.

except, Voldemort, perhaps, if he were a DE, I think Lily would have known about it, and she would have addressed the issue during the SWM IMO.

In my view, if he was desisting from sharing his interest in Voldemort with her, he would certainly keep the fact that he joined up from her. JKR said he planned to join in order to impress her (Bloomsbury Chat), however, he obviously never shared that with her because otherwise she would not have asked him about it when she ended the friendship.

And the *dark curse* Snape cast during the SWM is also an assumption IMO. We have nothing in canon. his Lily detests dark magic. She would have surely spoken scathing words to Snape and asked him to stop using dark magic. Sirius was there too; he would have known if that curse was dark magic; he would have shouted and also let loose some hexes on his own IMO. I don't think it was the sectumsempra or any oyther dark curse. I think it was the cutting spell, seeing that James never needed the counter, dittany or the fact he had a scar mentioned anywhere in the book IMO.

I respect your view. What is the cutting spell? I do not feel that there are any light cutting spells. This spell reminded me of the whipping curse that Snape used in HBP against Harry, in my opinion, these types of spells have no light purpose. We saw that for cutting food, wizards use knives which are worked by magic, they did not cut with their wands (Molly and Fleur in the kitchen OOTP/DH). So I don't believe there is a light use for a spell that cuts humans for the purpose of drawing blood. It was not terribly injurious as used in SWM, but I believe it dangerous, for example if it cut a person's eye or cut more profoundly or caused multiple cuts. I feel it was Sectumsempra controlled.

Nonetheless, in my judgment, Lily would not approve of Snape using this curse against people, whatever it was. This is the type of behavior that I don't believe Snape would normally exhibit in front of Lily. That was just before the scene in which Lily ended the friendship and the two had not seen one another inbetween those scenes based on their conversation. In that final scene, Lily didn't complain about things she had complained about in memory #5, so she didn't mention everything bothering her, I feel she was merely ending the friendship and menitoned enough to allow Snape to understand she felt he was on a dark path and she was on a light path and as such, they could no longer be friends.