Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

Welcome to the new version of this thread! :wave:

Please remember to focus on how Snape's and Lily's relationship evolved and the impact that it had on both characters.

Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

As you can see from the questions we want to focus this thread on the relationship as revealed by canon and how the characters were effected by it. Your personal reaction to the relationship is not on topic here, nor is a literary analysis of the relationship or a discussion of why JKR wrote things the way she did. Our hope is that re-focusing this on canon and on BOTH characters including Lily will allow a more pleasant discussion with fewer mod notes and thread closures.

Please read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021) , In-Thread Moderator Warnings (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=110755) , and How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) before posting in this thread.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was so reluctant to approach her mainly because he was shy and nervous. He had little love shown to him at home and this would have affected how he dealt with people as a small child. I'm not so sure if he would have been interested in her if she had not been magical, I'll leave that one for discussion.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think Lily accepted Snape's friendship because she was curious about him, and because she was generally a nice person anyway so I think she probably would have been friends with him even if he hadn't told her about the magical world.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I don't think it was a friendship of equals. Snape clearly liked her more than she liked him IMO.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think they did, but ultimately it was Snape's involvement in the dark arts that pushed Lily away, and his final outburst towards her calling her a 'mudblood'.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it was both. Lily disagreed with Snape's involvement with the dark arts, but it was his final insult that upset her the most and drove her away IMO.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I don't mean to blame Snape constantly, but I think the dissolving of their friendship was entirely his fault. I can't see any mistake Lily made.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I don't think this characterizes the relationship accurately. Imo, Snape still considered Lily his best friend in 5th, but based on Lily's response to Snape asking if they were still best friends at that time, I would say Lily did not consider him her best friend.

Imo, the relationship had been drifting apart due to their different outlooks and both of them knew this - but Snape refused to admit it was true. In that particular memory, it seemed as if Snape was responding to something that Lily said which would place doubt on the notion that they were friends at all - let alone best friends.

I feel Lily had begun to compare her other relationships with her friendship with Snape and saw that it was no longer compatible with her life. Thus, while later Snape calling her a 'mudblood' was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I believe the friendship was quickly drawing to a close in any case.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I don't think this characterizes the relationship accurately. Imo, Snape still considered Lily his best friend in 5th, but based on Lily's response to Snape asking if they were still best friends at that time, I would say Lily did not consider him her best friend.

Imo, the relationship had been drifting apart due to their different outlooks and both of them knew this - but Snape refused to admit it was true. In that particular memory, it seemed as if Snape was responding to something that Lily said which would place doubt on the notion that they were friends at all - let alone best friends.

I feel Lily had begun to compare her other relationships with her friendship with Snape and saw that it was no longer compatible with her life. Thus, while later Snape calling her a 'mudblood' was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I believe the friendship was quickly drawing to a close in any case.

Agreed. :) I think it was a 'doomed' friendship. Many friendships are. It is just sad that Snape was in love with her because the fact that the friendship alone could never have worked makes it even harder to bear.

I don't fully agree with any of the options. I believe, although there isn't much canon, that she was a good friend to Severus, but I don't fully agree she gave up easily. I think it fell apart due to the situation which Severus couldn't really understand and assess well enough in order to act appropriately. Believing she would be impressed with him joining Voldemort is enough evidence of that. He didn't know what was going on, what was different and why, and he didn't know how to handle the situation. The sad result was that he enhanced the divergence in his attempt to bring things back to how they must have been in their early years. It's so sadto even think about this... :sad:

I don't fully agree with any of the options. I believe, although there isn't much canon, that she was a good friend to Severus, but I don't fully agree she gave up easily. I think it fell apart due to the situation which Severus couldn't really understand and assess well enough in order to act appropriately. Believing she would be impressed with him joining Voldemort is enough evidence of that. He didn't know what was going on, what was different and why, and he didn't know how to handle the situation. The sad result was that he enhanced the divergence in his attempt to bring things back to how they must have been in their early years. It's so sadto even think about this... :sad:

One thing to take into account is that it appears it was the way of the wizard world back then. Peter did the same thing: reject his friends over Voldemort and end up hurting them as a result of his association. But they were not alone. Sirius said that no one knew who they could trust. It would seem relatives, friends and acquaintances alike were all turning out to be Death Eaters or heading off to be one in many people's lives. From that standpoint, I don't see the ending of relationships as sad but rather as reprehensible. Imagine Regulus making plans to end his own brother's life...

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think he was somewhat reluctant to approach her because he was very shy. He didn't have many friends and was interested in Lily but was unsure how to confront these feelings.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
I think she accepted his friendship because he seemed genuinely sweet, and shy at the same time. He clearly liked her and she probably saw nothing wrong with that.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
I'm not really sure how to approach this question. By equals I assume it's meant that they both were equals in their friendship. If that's assumed then I don't think they were equals. My main reasoning behind this is I believe that Snape liked Lily more and probably embellished their relationship more than she did. With that being said, I think they were both equals in the sense that they enjoyed the other's company but other than that I think they were on different levels of feelings for each other. Snape liked Lily more than she did him.

4. How did Hogwarts affect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think Hogwarts greatly affected their friendship. The house system definitely takes its tolls on inter-house friendships because it makes them harder to keep up, when compared to intra-house friendships.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
Environment certainly has its effects on people and I believe this showed on their relationship. They each began to think and act more like those in their respective houses, spreading them apart somewhat. Had they been in different houses, but still separate ones, I think they still would have been distanced somewhat, but maybe in different ways depending on their houses.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
I don't think they ever would have had a romantic future. It seems possible that they could have had a lifelong friendship. They had been able to sustain it for quite sometime and I believe it could have continued, but I don't think it ever would have evolved into anything romantic.

My whole point was that the idea that we fall in love with someone after assessing their merits and measuring their lovability index is absurd to me, based on my whole experience, and I have never - NEVER - seen but 1 example of this happening. Besides, this theory will never explain how come people who are less than perfect amd have many character flaws are also loved by someone; it can't explain why you don't fall in love with all the wonderful, deserving people you meet - I doubt Lily met only one man "deserving" of her love in her lifetime; it just doesn't explain anything. It's so unrealistic, its practically insupportable by reasonable arguments. And I stand by my previous statement, because I do believe in it - love is irrational. Literalli irrational. Therefore, neither you, nor I, nor wickedwickedboy could ever know whom Lily could or couldn't love - if she were a real person, the thought that we could would have been presumptuous.

I agree with most of that. Lily had feelings for James even when she didn't approve of his behaviour. But, she didn't act on them until he deflated his head a bit. People can't help who they fall in love with, but they can control what they do about it, and whether ot not they want to have a relationship, IMO. It's just the attraction that is not under their control.

Whether it was James or Snape who was more deserving doesn't make any difference to the fact that Lily loved James. Snape could have been a saint, and Lily would still have been attracted to James.

Fair enough - you can't see how Lily could love Snape. I however see no problem with their personalitites that might make them romantically incompatible.
As in, they are both heterosexual? Beyond that, I don't see how their personalities match. Lily was making excuses for Snape and pretending the whole time she was with Snape. Lily saw him as a friend, while Snape was essentially, lying about their relationship. Snape's actions do not indicate that he valued their friendship. Thus, IMO, what relationship they had was based on lies, and was doomed to failure. I honestly don't see how it could develop into a romantic relationship. Yeah, I know that Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape that way, but having feelings for someone is quite different from love or a relationship, IMO.

Yes Snape behaved in a despicable manner but what I find interesting are the complexities of the man that led him to behave this way. I am here to discuss Snape's character not to judge him.
Hey! Me too! :lol:
The problem is that the more I examine it, the more I end up being disgusted by his behaviour. I don't think that phrases like 'socially inept' or 'strict and stern' are enough to explain Snape's demeanour. Socially inept would he Harry struggling to ask Cho out, or Hermione being insensitive to Lavender when her pet has just died. Snape bullying his students can hardly be passed off as social awkwardness.

Snape is smart but he hasn't a clue about emotions or how to deal with them. As for him thinking that getting back at James was more important than honouring Lily - that confuses thoughts and feelings and implies a level of consciousness regarding his emotions that Snape simply didn't have.

So, basically, you're saying that Snape didn't mean to call her a mudblood, that he didn't mean to intentionally insult her to get back at James. That makes sense. After all, even Snape would know that it's not wise to hurl racial slurs at the girl you're in love with.

That would suggest that Snape had subconsciously thought of Lily as a mudblood, IMO. She was special to him, no doubt, but he still saw her muggle-only parentage as a flaw that he was willing, or even magnanimous enough to overlook. Being the 'Half-blood Prince' was clearly important to him, which would indicate that he believed that he was superior to muggleborns, including Lily. This idea, that Lily was his inferior, was what he thought about her, deep down. IMO, it also explains his possesiveness, and his objectifying Lily on occasions. Of course, he knew consciously, that she would skin him if he ever told her that :lol:, and he took care to say the right things whenever he spoke to her.

During SWM, Snape must have felt so deeply humiliated. To be tormented in such a way in front of the whole school, with his own spells no less. And then, Lily had to come and bail him out. To have to be saved by someone he considered an inferior, that must have really rankled. I think that he was deeply angry at Lily too, at this point, for coming to his 'rescue', as if he needed 'help'. And to have it rubbed in his face by his enemy, well, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Is it realistic when a man blames his own infant child for the death of the woman he loved in childbirth? Of course it is unfair! But it has happened and will continue to happen. Life isn't fair. People aren't fair - especially where emotions are involved.
Not everyone in that situation end up blaming their child either. The ones that do are the ones with issues that need to be addressed. I can fully understand Snape's behaviour, but I can't say that it is justified in any way. If people have issues they have to deal with it. What's truly unfair about the whole situation is that Harry has no idea why Snape is the way he is, and Snape won't let Harry know either.

Love is irrational. There is no sense to it. Before I met my husband I had a vague idea of the type of man I'd like to marry. My husband is so unlike this "mythical perfect husband" it's genuinely funny and I laugh when I think about how ludicrous I was.
Cool. In a way, wasn't this the case with James and Lily as well? Lily would never have believed at 11 that she'd end up being married to the 'rude boy' from the train. :lol:

I think what PerfectDystopia means is that Lily did think there were more men deserving of her love - she loved Sirius, Remus, and Peter too did she not? Yet she never loved them romantically. Some people you're just always friends with, like with Harry and Hermione. There are parts of Snape's personality I don't think Lily would ever be happy with - like his inability to let things go, and his method of communication and lack of listening to her when he doesn't think what she's saying is important.
Exactly. :tu: From what we see, these things did frustrate Lily, as did having to make excuses for a relationship, and having to justify her friend's actions to herself and to others.

I think that this must have been true of Snape as well. He'd have had to explain to his Slytherin buddies why he was hanging out with a 'filthy mudblood', and explain her actions as well. In that regard, the ending of the friendship must have been quite a relief for the two of them, and it also must have eased the tension on the relationships with their other friends.

I respectfully disagree. I don't believe Snape was drawn to loathsome acts all his life; yes he as a spy probably did a lot of things that were dubious in nature, once he turned, but they were for the Light and they were acts that helped Harry Potter win the war with Voldemort IMO.
I agree with WWB that bullying children in his care is pretty loathsome behaviour. And worse, he seems to take a lot of pleasure from it.

one such act to kill Dumbledore; spend the next year as the most hated man and be content with the descriptions of traitor and betrayer and die at the hands of Voldemort for the Elder wand for Harry to use a simple expellarmus that defeated Voldemort in the end IMO.
I understand that. In fact, Snape's last year might well have been his tamest to date.

In OOTP Sirius and Remus tell Harry that Lily never knew the fights they (meaning four) had against one Snape. So that apparently never came to an end all of their schooldays when James started going out with Lily sometime in 7th year.
Where's the mention of this four-on-one? I couldn't find it in OoTP.
'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin.
'Even Snape?' said Harry.
Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?'
'And my mum was OK with that?'
'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,' said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?'
Sirius frowned at Harry, who was still looking unconvinced.
'Look,' he said, 'your father was the best friend I ever had and he was a good person. A lot of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. He grew out of it.'
As for the truth of the four-on-one, this is the way I see it. If the marauders were hanging out, and Snape took a shot at James, naturally, all of his friends would get involved. They look out for each other as friends do. Snape is a loner, though, and doesn't have friends who would fight by his side. Naturally, he would see it as a four-on-one. To me, it's the same as the DA hexing Draco and gang when they try to get at Harry.

@TGW: How does Sirius's rhetorical question imply that James hexed Snape when they were out of Lily's sight? I don't see how something that Sirius did not say or even suggest overrides what Remus says in the line before, that James only got Snape back.

I think they could've stayed friends if Snape hadn't fallen for her. Everything he did wrong seemed to stem from a desire to "win" her romantically. Even the Death Eater enthusiasm seems to me to be inspired by a wish to become bigger in her eyes.

As in, they are both heterosexual? Beyond that, I don't see how their personalities match. Lily was making excuses for Snape and pretending the whole time she was with Snape. Lily saw him as a friend, while Snape was essentially, lying about their relationship. Snape's actions do not indicate that he valued their friendship. Thus, IMO, what relationship they had was based on lies, and was doomed to failure. I honestly don't see how it could develop into a romantic relationship. Yeah, I know that Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape that way, but having feelings for someone is quite different from love or a relationship, IMO.
Well I'm not sure about what you mean about their personalities matching so I'll assume you mean you don't see how they are compatible - like I said that's fair enough - it's all just a matter of opinion. :) As for Snape lying - I'm not sure what you mean by that :shrug:
I disagree that Snape's actions do not indicate that he values their friendship. I think he valued their friendship but he behaved like a jerk. It happens. I know that we can only judge what a character thinks or feels by the way they behave, but sometimes people - and therefore characters - do strange things that seem to contradict the notion that they are friends with someone or that they love someone. I think that Snapes behaviour in going to Dumbledore showed that he valued Lily above everything. I think his behaviour towards Lily in their fifth year showed that he was a jerk, that he was being pulled in oppposite directions by his house-mates and by Lily and that he really didn't have a clue about how to deal with his emotions or how to relate to people.

The problem is that the more I examine it, the more I end up being disgusted by his behaviour. I don't think that phrases like 'socially inept' or 'strict and stern' are enough to explain Snape's demeanour. Socially inept would he Harry struggling to ask Cho out, or Hermione being insensitive to Lavender when her pet has just died. Snape bullying his students can hardly be passed off as social awkwardness.

I don't think that I have used any of those phrases to describe Snape. And just because Snape's behaviour is at time disgusting, that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know how to relate to people, and that he is generally an awkward loner. It is easy to just write someone off as a nasty piece of work, but I would far rather pick over the minutiae of what is, to me, the most interesting character in the book. For me that means going beyond judging his behaviour and looking at the the psychology of the character and all the influences - both external and internal - that effect his behaviour.

So, basically, you're saying that Snape didn't mean to call her a mudblood, that he didn't mean to intentionally insult her to get back at James. That makes sense. After all, even Snape would know that it's not wise to hurl racial slurs at the girl you're in love with.Um I don't know what Snape calling Lily "mudblood" has got to do with this - I was referring specifically to Snape's treatment of Harry in response to someone.

Not everyone in that situation end up blaming their child either. The ones that do are the ones with issues that need to be addressed. I can fully understand Snape's behaviour, but I can't say that it is justified in any way. If people have issues they have to deal with it. What's truly unfair about the whole situation is that Harry has no idea why Snape is the way he is, and Snape won't let Harry know either.
How can I make this clear? I am not suggestting that it is acceptable to blame a child for their parents death. I am not attempting to justify Snape's behaviour. I am just saying that these things happen, and saying it's not fair doesn't stop it from happening.
I repeat - and I hope this is clear to everyone - I am not trying to justify Snape's behaviour - I want to look at why he behaves the way he does. Just because I don't say that his behaviour is unacceptable in every post does not mean that I think that his bad behaviour is acceptable.


If the marauders were hanging out, and Snape took a shot at James, naturally, all of his friends would get involved. They look out for each other as friends do.Let us not forget that the marauders were not averse to hexing Snape (or anyone else for that matter) "just for fun"

Snape is a loner, though, and doesn't have friends who would fight by his side. What we see in SWM is effectively Snape's friend (Lily) coming to help him out. Being the peacable kind she tries to get James to stop rather than hexing him back. In this scene she reminds me a bit of Hermione, who I think would behave in the same way - trying to get the bullies to stop rather than fighting back with her friend.

Remus says in the line before, that James only got Snape back.This is a little off-topic but that isn't what Lupin says. He didn'y say that James only ever got Snape back, he says that "Snape was a special case. I mean he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you really couldn't expect James to take that lying down"
In other words there was particular emnity between Snape and James that meant that they continued to hex each other even after James had calmed down and stopped hexing people randomly for fun. I don't think it is meant to imply that James never initiated a hex battle, and only ever retaliated.

I think they could've stayed friends if Snape hadn't fallen for her. Everything he did wrong seemed to stem from a desire to "win" her romantically. Even the Death Eater enthusiasm seems to me to be inspired by a wish to become bigger in her eyes.That is a very good point! It seems to be common amongst teenage boys to think they have to be impressive to get girls to like them. The Marauders say that James made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around - it's not a huge leap to think that Severus might be doing the same.

Love is certainly irrational. The bottom line is that Lily loved James. She had feelings for James. Snape had feelings for her but they were unreturned, and he lied to himself about their relationship. I don't see how Lily could have loved Snape either.

That is a very good point! It seems to be common amongst teenage boys to think they have to be impressive to get girls to like them. The Marauders say that James made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around - it's not a huge leap to think that Severus might be doing the same.

Thank you. :) I thought so because he seemed to care for her more than gor the other things.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
~This is an interesting question. On one hand, I believe he may still have been a bit interested in Lily had she been a muggle. But on the other hand, we all saw how he treated and was treated by Petunia. This brings up his future tendencies against muggles. As a whole, I still think he would have been reluctant to speak to her, if he chose to speak to her at all. It's very possible that he wouldn't speak to her, since the fact that she was a witch was the sole reason he chose to in the first place.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
~Lily was a very loving and accepting person, so I believe she would still have communicated with him (but probably not to the extent of a full friendship; mainly on the premises of her guiding sister). I also believe that what Snape told Lily about the Wizarding World was a great draw in to Lily. The chance to learn all she could about the society she truly belonged to would be enticing to any normal 11 year old.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
~This depends on what we consider "equals". Do you mean morally equal? Or EQUAL as in the sense that everyone is equal? To begin with, they were 11 years old when they met. At this time they were not mature enough, IMO, to not be equals. I mean to say that, yes Lily already showed signs of the great woman she was to become, and Snape was, well, the immature run of the mill 11 year old boy we all know and (well kind of) love. As they mature, they both grow into two opposite people. This, IMO, is caused by various factors throughout there preteen years at Hogwarts. So, by the end of their friendship, I would have to say that morally Lily was far ahead than Snape ever was.
Lily plays the role of the down-to-earth, smart, common-sensical (is that a word? lol) girl, musch IMO like Hermione is. Snape, on the other hand, was the eccentric, disorganized, some-what off role. In all, I think that they complemented eachother at the time when evil was not a factor.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
~I think that as they grew they both matured into two very different people. IMO, Hogwarts would not have been a direct factor in their friendship, but the other students (as we see in OOTP) were ultimately one major cause of their split. Take James for example. He was Snape's enemy from the get-go and the fact that Lily eventually fell in love and had a child with this man put one major strain on the relationship. Lily also states that Snape's friends were despicable and that she could never be friends with that type of people.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
~I don't think that Gryffindor really had an effect on Lily. We already saw the good side of her back in Spinner's End and I don't think she would have changed much either way.
Snape, on the other hand, would have had a much different lookout on life if he had been sorted into another house IMO. In the beginning he was already sort of bent toward his Slytherin way, but it is obvious that the students in Slytherin had a major hand in his future power search and Death Eater status.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
~I think it was a little bit of everything. He was interested in becoming a DE and the Dark Arts (which disgusted Lily), he insulted her, and ultimately she chose his one enemy over him.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
~It all depends on how far each would have been willing to go. Lily could have been more leniant (sp?) and Snape coult NOT HAVE JOINED THE DEATH EATERS. But you know, I don't think they would have ever considered this as a possibility.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
~I do not think that they would have had a romantic future due to Lily's preferences. But I do believe that they could have had at least a lifelong friendship. That is, if they could get over the minor flaws of each other's and be at peace with the romantic choices (ie James) that the other makes.

What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

Both. Snape's interest in the Dark Arts and aspirations to be a Death Eater were a huge factor in Lily's decision to end the friendship. The Mudblood comment was also important because it was a wakeup call to Snape's nature. It wasn't the comment itself that made Lily snap, it was the fact that Snape was willing to use such a derogatory slur against his own best friends and that he used it against Muggleborns as well. As Lily said, why should she be any different?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Was there a differense Snape could have made? Yes, definitely. He could have listened to his best friend and turn his back against loathsome people and acts.

As is obvious by what I voted in the poll, I do not believe there is anything Lily could have made. I see nothing wrong in ending a friendship if one of the people in the friendship is behaving in a manner that goes against one's morals. Lily was aware that her friend was interested in the Dark Arts - the branch of magic that is intended to be used for malicious purposes - and found them amusing. What's worse is that Lily was aware that Snape wanted to give his allegiance to Voldemort by becoming a Death Eater. By having an interest in joining Voldemort's circle of followers, he was agreeing to aiding in the persecution of Muggles, Muggleborns and bloodtraitors. Lily and her family were targets of Voldemort's terror - it's no wonder Lily was apalled by Snape's interest in the Death Eaters. Lily had morals and didn't forsake them so she could have her friendship with Snape last longer. Lily ultimately chose the right decision, and I see no wrong in doing that.

As in, they are both heterosexual? Beyond that, I don't see how their personalities match. Lily was making excuses for Snape and pretending the whole time she was with Snape. Lily saw him as a friend, while Snape was essentially, lying about their relationship. Snape's actions do not indicate that he valued their friendship. Thus, IMO, what relationship they had was based on lies, and was doomed to failure. I honestly don't see how it could develop into a romantic relationship. Yeah, I know that Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape that way, but having feelings for someone is quite different from love or a relationship, IMO.

You said it perfectly. :tu: Personalities don't have to be very similar, but I never got the impression that Lily and Snape could have developed a romantic relationship from the personalities shown in the series. I can't see how their personalities complement each other; it's already hard for me to fathom them being best friends.

Lily plays the role of the down-to-earth, smart, common-sensical (is that a word? lol) girl, musch IMO like Hermione is. Snape, on the other hand, was the eccentric, disorganized, some-what off role. In all, I think that they complemented eachother at the time when evil was not a factor.
I don't think Lily was much like Hermione, however I do agree that she was very down to earth, whereas Snape's view of their relationship was more of his own fantasy. I don't think the two complemented each other at all. Their communication methods were a big problem and communication is very important in a long term relationship. Lily was very straight forward, Snape kept things inside and Lily married a man who was also very open. Another problem with their communication was that Snape only listened to what he wanted to hear from Lily. He ignores her concerns about his friends and enjoyment of the dark art, and only really pays attention to her calling James Potter a toerag. Imo, that is not a healthy relationship.

According to canon, their senses of humour were on opposite sides of the spectrum. Snape found using dark arts on girls funny and Lily found it disgusting. I can't imagine how two people with such different views of humor managed to stay friends for so long.

You say, "on the other hand, Snape was disorganized" - so do you mean to say you think Lily is organized? If so, where in canon does it state that she is an organized person?

Snape, on the other hand, was the eccentric, disorganized, some-what off role.Snape was disorganized? I got the impression that he was all about control and organization. That's what made him a good potioneer. One small misstep and an entire potion goes wrong, even when it comes to how many stirs in one direction or another.

Snape was disorganized? I got the impression that he was all about control and organization. That was what made him a good potioneer. One small misstep and an entire potion goes wrongs, even when it comes to how many stirs in one direction or another. I agree. I always thought Snape was a bit of a control freak.

Their communication methods were a big problem and communication is very important in a long term relationship. Lily was very straight forward, Snape kept things inside and Lily married a man who was also very open. My husband and I are very different when it comes to communication - I'm very open and he isn't (honestly it's like getting blood out of a stone) but we've been married for 17 years so I don't see that this has to be a problem - as I've said before a relationshop is about working togethr to overcome difficulties.

Another problem with their communication was that Snape only listened to what he wanted to hear from Lily. He ignores her concerns about his friends and enjoyment of the dark art, and only really pays attention to her calling James Potter a toerag. To me this was the real problem - his lack of listening. This is Snape's brand of arrogance - he is convinced that he is right about the whole Dark Arts/DE thing and thinks that he will be proved right in the end and Lily will come to see things from his POV.
It is listening IMO which is key to making a relationship work.

According to canon, their senses of humour were on opposite sides of the spectrum.I disagree. I think Lily would have enjoyed Sev's dry and wicked sense of humour. I think the twitch of the lips in SWM tells us that she found the situation funny and gave a clear indication of her sense of humour. I can imagine Sev causing her fits of giggles at times with his caustic remarks.

To me this was the real problem - his lack of listening. This is Snape's brand of arrogance - he is convinced that he is right about the whole Dark Arts/DE thing and thinks that he will be proved right in the end and Lily will come to see things from his POV. It is listening IMO which is key to making a relationship work.That's what I saw. And we actually have early indications prior to Hogwarts that he wasn't tuned into Lily's concerns. The Hogwarts' conversations we were shown definitely indicated that he wasn't listening. It's not an uncommon problem, but it's a serious problem.

I disagree. I think Lily would have enjoyed Sev's dry and wicked sense of humour. I think the twitch of the lips in SWM tells us that she found the situation funny and gave a clear indication of her sense of humour. I can imagine Sev causing her fits of giggles at times with his caustic remarks.

I would respectfully disagree. Lily would hardly break into a fit of giggles if Snape made his "I see no difference" comment. Her lips might twitch just as they did in SWM, but even in SWM, she didn't allow herself to giggle because she didn't wish to condone making fun of others - even if she did see the humor - her sense of justice was greater.

In that light, Lily's sense of humor was dissimilar from James' at that time. She saw the funny aspects of pranking, but it was something she did not wish to giggle about. Same with Snape. She might see the humor in his caustic remarks and her lips may twitch, but she wouldn't allow herself to break into giggles and condone making fun of others. And with Snape, she wouldn't share his humor at all when it came to dark arts pranking - that would just make her angry (her lips didn't twitch when he issued his sectumsempra curse). So her sense of humor was even further apart from Snape's at that time.

Whether or not Lily needed to lighten up when it came to non-dark arts pranking and harmless caustic comments is for each reader to decide (assuming most wouldn't find dark-arts pranking funny as Snape did), but that is how Lily appeared to look at things at that time.

My whole point was that the idea that we fall in love with someone after assessing their merits and measuring their lovability index is absurd to me, based on my whole experience, and I have never - NEVER - seen but 1 example of this happening. Besides, this theory will never explain how come peopel who are less than perfect amd have many character flaws are also loved by someone; it can't explain why you don't fall in love with all the wonderful, deserving people you meet - I doubt Lily met only one man "deserving" of her love in her lifetime; it just doesn't explain anything. It's so unrealistic, its practically insupportable by reasonable arguments. And I stand by my previous statement, because I do believe in it - love is irrational. Literalli irrational. Therefore, neither you, nor I, nor wickedwickedboy could ever know whom Lily could or couldn't love - if she were a real person, the thought that we could would have been presumptuous.

Then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I believe you only really "love" someone if you really know that person. Apparently you don't think the same. Anyways, I never said Lily met only one deserving man in her lifetime. What I said ( or meant to say) is that you fall in love with someone who has the special "something something" that you like. James obviously had that special "something something" that Lily liked and that's probably why she gave James a shot. I'm not saying Remus, Sirius, and Severus didn't have a special "something something" but if Lily didn't have romantic feeling about them, then I think it is safe to say Lily regarded her attraction to Remus', Sirius', and Severus' "something something" as platonic.


What does that have to do with me loving him? Or do you think we can only love people who love us back?
So you can like a guy who doesn't like you? Okay.

I think Lily would have enjoyed Sev's dry and wicked sense of humour.
Whoa, Snape had a sense of humor? When? I never noticed anything Snape said that was particularly funny. :huh:

Then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I believe you only really "love" someone if you really know that person. Apparently you don't think the same.

I'm speaking out of experience. It may be difficult to imagine something exists when you haven't been in direct contact (when it hasn't happened to you). But when it has, you can say it does exist with certainty.

Anyways, I never said Lily met only one deserving man in her lifetime. What I said ( or meant to say) is that you fall in love with someone who has the special "something something" that you like.

Nice idea, but unfortunately it doesn't always happen like that. Sometimes you fall in love and you can't possibly understand why. It's beyond your control. It does happen, I know for a fact.

So you can like a guy who doesn't like you? Okay.

Yes, I can - it's called unrecruited love, and I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who can do that. Since wehn is love dependant on reciprocity anyway?

So you can like a guy who doesn't like you?

I very much think so, yes. Love is something that does not allow us to choose IMO. If Snape could fall out of love with Lily, I think he would have. Staying in love with her, placed a huge burden on him. If he weren't in love; he would not have done any of the things we saw that he did; for the Light and also himself; in the sense that he was able to change from calling muggleborns mudblood, to stopping Phineas calling Hermione by that name. So love has truly transformed Snape in all ways IMO.

I also think it is the same for others as well. I really don't think one can choose to be in love with a particular person; it just happens IMO.

I don't think anyone can generalize about love. I personally don't go for all the unrequited nonsense, so to say to me that I will fall in love uncontrollably is dead wrong. Just as it would be dead wrong of me to say that it cannot happen to another person. Love may be uncontrollable and irrational to some people, but not to me - thus not to everyone. Believe it or not, some of us can stop feeling that romantic inclination toward another when we put forth the effort to do so and not 'fall in love' (and I would agree others may not be able to do so).

That is why it is not possible to assess how Lily felt at any given time. Perhaps she had feelings of love for James and they were 'uncontrolable' and she kept feeling them - or she made herself stop feeling them and when he changed she allowed herself to feel them again. We don't know. We do know that she did not act on those feelings (or perhaps allow them again) until he changed. Snape, per the text, did not or was unable to control his feelings. I think that is the most we can say.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?I think Snape was reluctant because up to that point he never had a friend so he wasn't sure how to get one, so unable to go over and talk to her he spied on her instead. This also may have to do with shyness. And no, I don't think he would be interested in her if she wasn't magical. It was probably the fact that she was a witch got his attention at first.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?Lily accepted his friendship because it was in her nature to do so. Lily seems the type of person who would give anyone the chance if she thought they justly desevered it, so after her brief clash with Snape that went wrong in the playground there must be some time when she decided 'sure, I'll just talk to him and see.' If Snape didn't tell her about the magical world she still would have given him a chance.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?Hard to say. It's possible that Lily was the person who was like 'the boss' of the friendship because there was a part of Snape that wanted to please her.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?Hogwarts most likely affected their friendship quite a bit. As you see in the book Lily's gryffindor friends can't understand why she is friends with him and Snape's slytherin friend feel the same about Snape being friends with Lily, maybe even worse then the gryffindors. This would put a lot of pressure on their relationship. But they obviously liked each other a lot because they obviously did work hard on maintaining their relationship despite being in seperate houses.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?I don't think gryffindor changed Lily as much as slytherin changed Snape. Before he attended Hogwarts Snape must have been unbiased if he decided to be friends with Lily. Then he attends Hogwarts and being around with all those biased slytherin his feeling start to change about muggleborns being bad. Snape must have began to feel the same way as his fellow slytherins with only Lily as an exception. Yes, if they were in the same house their relationship would have lasted.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else? I think there was a lot of under-current problems with their relationship that they were both trying to sort out but when Snape said mudblood that was the final straw with their relationship.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?Snape should have kept on asking for Lily's forgiveness because their relationship was deep. They should have kept working for it to last.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
They would have lasted because they obviously cared about each other a lot. Snape spent half of his life mourning for a woman, and even tried to help her son even though he hated him, that isn't something only a short, fleeting friendship could make a man do.
A romantic future was indeed possible for them if they weren't born in the time they were.

I don't think anyone can generalize about love.

I wasn't generalizing, because I said it does happen, as opposed to not possible (which is definitely a generalization), not that it's the only way it happens.

I personally don't go for all the unrequited nonsense

You, however, are, with this sentence. I, in my turn of generalization, don't go for all the controlled rational assessed falling in love nonsense, but I guess we're very different people.

so to say to me that I will fall in love uncontrollably is dead wrong.

I don't believe I ever suggested such thing.

Just as it would be dead wrong of me to say that it cannot happen to another person.

Precisely what I was answering for. It can happen. It won't happen to everyone, obviously. But to some people sometimes it does, and that was all I was saying, and I do believe it is very clear there in my posts.

Love may be uncontrollable and irrational to some people, but not to me - thus not to everyone. Believe it or not, some of us can stop feeling that romantic inclination toward another when we put forth the effort to do so (and I would agree others may not be able to do so).

Fine. That's not neough to ascribe this ability to Lily though.

That is why it is not possible to assess how Lily felt at any given time.

Well I believe this is precisely why I even entered this debate - to say this. And this si what I said on the previous page - that you can't know how she felt or would have felt. Which you said you could.

Well I believe this is precisely why I even entered this debate - to say this. And this si what I said on the previous page - that you can't know how she felt or would have felt. Which you said you could.

:lol: - I was responding to Green Woods - actually you and I are in agreement then. I should have quoted TGW's post, sorry.

As for the previous page, what I said was that you and I were speaking of different things. You were speaking of the issue of whether or not Lily would have feelings of love (that is something we can only opine about). I was speaking of whether or not Lily would act regardless of what she might feel (based on her canon character, Lily couldn't love the adult Snape because she does not act on her feelings if the object of her love is unworthy in her eyes and he would be due to his feelings and behavior toward her husband, son and others - just as 15 year old James was unworthy in her eyes for different reasons and she didn't act on her feelings.). I also feel that Lily wouldn't have feelings of love for the adult Snape because of who he was at that time, but that of course is my personal opinion.

ETA**I know you don't consider JKR's statement that Lily may have had romantic feelings for Snape if he wasn't into the dark arts, etc., canon, but looking at it as just an ideology, the statement is bascially mimicking what happened in canon. Lily cannot love a person who is unworthy of her love in her eyes - and further doesn't cultivate love (allow it to develop) for that person if they are too far outside of her idea of worthiness. James was a prankster, but that was not outside of her 'realm of worthiness' it just made him unworthy at that time. Snape fell outside of her 'realm of worthiness' so she wouldn't allow any romantic feelings to develop. In essence, she could tolerate the pranking deep inside, but she could not tolerate the dark arts deep inside.

Nice idea, but unfortunately it doesn't always happen like that. Sometimes you fall in love and you can't possibly understand why. It's beyond your control. It does happen, I know for a fact.
I guess you can fall in love and don't know why, but I can honestly say that I know exactly why I fall in love with someone. So this is probably just a misunderstanding of other people's experiences. We roll different ways.


Yes, I can - it's called unrequited love, and I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who can do that. Since when is love dependant on reciprocity anyway?

Once again, this is a misunderstanding of other people's experiences. I have never felt unrequited love. No, I'm not saying every person I fall in love with falls in love with me. Really, I don't put myself in that position to end up feeling unrequited love. When I meet someone for the first time and I happen to like him, I don't kid myself that it is love, it is lust. I get to know that person more, and I try to see if he is feeling the same way I do. If he doesn't, then it ends up being unrequited lust, which I easily get over.

I understand not everyone is going to agree with me and I'm cool with that. I think everyone here is arguing in circles. So many times "love is irrational" (which I don't agree with, but oh well) is being said, but if we are arguing about something irrational, then where are we expecting to end up? I'm backing out of this.

I don't think anyone can generalize about love. I personally don't go for all the unrequited nonsense, so to say to me that I will fall in love uncontrollably is dead wrong. Just as it would be dead wrong of me to say that it cannot happen to another person. Love may be uncontrollable and irrational to some people, but not to me - thus not to everyone. Believe it or not, some of us can stop feeling that romantic inclination toward another when we put forth the effort to do so and not 'fall in love' (and I would agree others may not be able to do so).

That is why it is not possible to assess how Lily felt at any given time. Perhaps she had feelings of love for James and they were 'uncontrolable' and she kept feeling them - or she made herself stop feeling them and when he changed she allowed herself to feel them again. We don't know. We do know that she did not act on those feelings (or perhaps allow them again) until he changed. Snape, per the text, did not or was unable to control his feelings. I think that is the most we can say.

I was talking about Snape's love for Lily and not Lily's love for Snape. With Lily, I think she was aware that Snape saw her in a way that was not just platonic friendship. But that's just me. I also think she did not choose to act on that awareness in the werewolf incident (memory) and she was begining to look at James in a different light. That's my take on Lily. Personally I felt Snape could not fall out of love, and if he could have, he would have. That's only my opinion, though. :)

While I agree that it is not possible for anyone to generalize about love, I still feel that love is an emotion that cannot be controlled. :)

I understand not everyone is going to agree with me and I'm cool with that. I think everyone here is arguing in circles. So many times "love is irrational" (which I don't agree with, but oh well) is being said, but if we are arguing about something irrational, then where are we expecting to end up? I'm backing out of this.

The issue people are having with you, is not that YOUR love must be irrational. I am quite willing to accept that your account of your own character is accurate for the sake of this discussion. I would certianly not presume to suggest I know you better than you know yourself, based on limited interaction online in this forum. :)

The source of the problem, is that you appear to be insisting that all of the characters in HP must be just like you. Yet, I would imagine you agree that Severus Snape is not like you at all, right? Then why do you expect he shares your attitudes and responses to romantic feelings? :huh:

All people are saying, is that we are not all the same, and it is possible (even likely, based on canon) that Severus Snape was one of those people who cannot control whom he loves, and who is capable of a long-lasting and deep attachment to a woman who has rejected him. Just as some posters feel this is true of their own selves. I mean, surely he would have prefered, from a standpoint of rational self-interest, not to find himself forced to betray Voldemort and work as a double agent in two wars, not to become entangled in Albus Dumbledore's grand plan, and not to die a rather messy death? Love experienced by him as an overwhelming emotion he is not able to resist, makes a lot mroe sense to me as an explanation for his actions, rather than rational calculation.

For us to have a rational discussion about Snape and Lily's relationship, does not require that Snape and Lily act rationally. (I think neither did.) It just requires us to examine the evidence in canon in a rational way, even if it is evidence of irrational actions by the characters, based on emotions not ruled by reason.

The source of the problem, is that you appear to be insisting that all of the characters in HP must be just like you. Yet, I would imagine you agree that Severus Snape is not like you at all, right? Then why do you expect he shares your attitudes and responses to romantic feelings? :huh:

All people are saying, is that we are not all the same, and it is possible (even likely, based on canon) that Severus Snape was one of those people who cannot control whom he loves, and who is capable of a long-lasting and deep attachment to a woman who has rejected him. Just as some posters feel this is true of their own selves. I mean, surely he would have prefered, from a standpoint of rational self-interest, not to find himself forced to betray Voldemort and work as a double agent in two wars, not to become entangled in Albus Dumbledore's grand plan, and not to die a rather messy death? Love experienced by him as an overwhelming emotion he is not able to resist, makes a lot mroe sense to me as an explanation for his actions, rather than rational calculation.

For us to have a rational discussion about Snape and Lily's relationship, does not require that Snape and Lily act rationally. (I think neither did.) It just requires us to examine the evidence in canon in a rational way, even if it is evidence of irrational actions by the characters, based on emotions not ruled by reason.

I wasn't trying to insist that all the of characters in Harry Potter act like me or should act like me. I'll admit am nothing like Snape and I don't understand why he dealt with this unrequited love of Lily the way he did. All was I trying to do was try to compare and contrast it to how I feel about love to understand what he was doing. I still don't understand, but I honestly don't care anymore.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of Lily, so I can debate about her, but with Snape, I'm getting lost. I completely accept that Snape was irrationally in love with Lily. Whether I agree whether that was right or wrong, or me believing Snape could do something about it, I came to realise is subjective. I don't think it was right and I believe Snape could have done something about it. But that's just me and I'm keeping my mouth shut.

And I don't think we are having a rational discussion about Lily and Snape if the "love is irrational" card is being dealt so many times like it is. Are we just supposed to sit back and watch Snape turn from a Death Eater to the good side, become a spy, and do all the stuff he did for Lily and not question why? "Love is irrational" isn't good enough for me. Of course, love is irrational, but I'm sure Snape is a person pretty big on logic (logic puzzle @ the end of the Philosopher's Stone). Yea, he did some irrational things based on love, but there must of have been some way he explained it to himself. That's what I'm trying to understand. How did Snape explain to himself that he was in love with Lily 17 years after she died?

I understand not everyone is going to agree with me and I'm cool with that. I think everyone here is arguing in circles. So many times "love is irrational" (which I don't agree with, but oh well) is being said, but if we are arguing about something irrational, then where are we expecting to end up? I'm backing out of this.

It is irrational in the sense I feel it cannot be explained. Love is basically acceptance. We see that with Snape. He accepts Lily's rejection, he accepts Lily's love for James, he accepts that love has borne fruit in the form of Harry, he accepts she does not want to have to do anything with him, and he also accepts that she would never love him IMO.

In spite of all this, he is unable to stop loving her as he showed Dumbledore his Patronus after so many years. That may look irrational because we see a man who loves with no return; loves a dead woman, loves a married woman and a woman who turned him away with contempt and went on to marry his enemy.

But I feel that love is exactly like this; all forms of love; Snape's was a romantic love, but I would say that parental love, love for a friend which is platonic only are all like this; unconditional.

True love for me would be unconditional acceptance of another; be it a lover, a friend, a child or anyone. That is why it is irrational, but that is also why it is very powerful and extremely humbling as well IMO.

How did Snape explain to himself that he was in love with Lily 17 years after she died?

I don't think he tried to explain toi himself. I think he could not help it. Sure he was logical and he made good puzzles; but there IMO he was thinking with his head; in love I think one feels; intensely and completely; that's why it is hard to decipher and hard to tackle with logic, arguments or reason IMO. And Snape too, I feel could not do it.

I chose these poll options:

No, she should have tried harder to keep him away from the dark side.
Kind of. She probably did her best but gave up a little easily.
Yes, she was. But friendships end all the time and she had good reason to sever their ties.

I believe that Lily was as good a friend to Severus as she could have been in her situation. Keep in mind that Lily is a friendly and attractive person. Her view of friendship would therefore be different from Severus'. He was obviously going to put a lot more value on the relationship because he simply wasn't used to being treated decently.

As for the "break-up", I think there was fault on both sides. Where Severus gets blame is obvious: he could not understand what was "evil" about his Slytherin acquaintances, and did not try to stand up to them or even consider what Lily was trying to say to him.

Lily, on the other hand, had the same problem Severus had when he was a teacher: she had a good point, but relayed it wrongly and did not make an effort to see from the point of view of the person she was reprimanding. I hardly expect Lily to have been an amateur psychologist at 15, but knowing what she does about her best friend, she could easily have put two and two together and realized that a lot of what was happening to him stemmed from his loneliness and poor upbringing-- if she had only looked hard enough.

If we add SWM and James to the equation, then things just get murkier. Judging from Lily's behavior there, she was already drifting away from Severus and toward James. Most people, if their best friend was attacked in such a manner, would get them out of the line of fire. Lily doesn't do this, and instead focuses entirely on James. This says to me that if things had continued the way they were going, Lily and Severus would have drifted apart eventually.

I disagree with the idea that if Snape could choose to fall out of love with Lily he probably would. Love isn't like that IMO and in my experience, even if it leaves you feeling horrible inside, you would still have that over not feeling anything at all. The very idea of it is unthinkable, I think that is what Snape felt to a certain extent.

It is irrational in the sense I feel it cannot be explained. Love is basically acceptance. We see that with Snape. He accepts Lily's rejection, he accepts Lily's love for James, he accepts that love has borne fruit in the form of Harry, he accepts she does not want to have to do anything with him, and he also accepts that she would never love him IMO.

In spite of all this, he is unable to stop loving her as he showed Dumbledore his Patronus after so many years. That may look irrational because we see a man who loves with no return; loves a dead woman, loves a married woman and a woman who turned him away with contempt and went on to marry his enemy.

But I feel that love is exactly like this; all forms of love; Snape's was a romantic love, but I would say that parental love, love for a friend which is platonic only are all like this; unconditional.

True love for me would be unconditional acceptance of another; be it a lover, a friend, a child or anyone. That is why it is irrational, but that is also why it is very powerful and extremely humbling as well IMO.

What a lovely post. That moved me a little bit I have to say. :( I agree with everything that you said.

However, I still can't decide whether up until fifth year at least, Lily and Snape were actually best friends, or the idea that they were best friends was just in Snape's head and Lily actually felt differently. :huh:

However, I still can't decide whether up until fifth year at least, Lily and Snape were actually best friends, or the idea that they were best friends was just in Snape's head and Lily actually felt differently. :huh:

I guess it is a matter of how one views her character. I found her pretty forthright, so I would have expected her to comment in the Year 5 scene in which Snape asked her whether they were still best friends.

I do think they had become more distant especially at school, and Lily may have felt more comfortable with her Gryffindor girlfriends by then, but her response suggests to me there was some sense in which she could still think of Snape as a 'best friend'. I tend to think that summers may have been their best times together, when Lily and he went home to the same town, and the different Houses, the Marauders, and Snape's Slytherin pals were all left behind.

I guess it is a matter of how one views her character. I found her pretty forthright, so I would have expected her to comment in the Year 5 scene in which Snape asked her whether they were still best friends.

I do think they had become more distant especially at school, and Lily may have felt more comfortable with her Gryffindor girlfriends by then, but her response suggests to me there was some sense in which she could still think of Snape as a 'best friend'. I tend to think that summers may have been their best times together, when Lily and he went home to the same town, and the different Houses, the Marauders, and Snape's Slytherin pals were all left behind.

Yes that's a good point. At summer Lily would be away from James and Sirius and Snape would be away from his Slytherin friends, so it would have just been the two of them.

I disagree with the idea that if Snape could choose to fall out of love with Lily he probably would. Love isn't like that IMO and in my experience, even if it leaves you feeling horrible inside, you would still have that over not feeling anything at all. The very idea of it is unthinkable, I think that is what Snape felt to a certain extent.
I think if you actually make an effort to get over it, you can still lead a happy life with other romantic partners. I've been a victum of unrequited love, and I'll never forget the person I had the feelings for, but those feelings have died down quite a bit now (it was easier since I hardly see him anymore) and I was able to move on. I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't. Again, choice.

True love for me would be unconditional acceptance of another; be it a lover, a friend, a child or anyone. That is why it is irrational, but that is also why it is very powerful and extremely humbling as well IMO.
I agree, which is why I don't think Snape was truly in love with Lily. It was love, don't get me wrong. But I believe he loved an image of her he created in his head and I believe so because his ignorance of her strong morals which she openly proclaimed and the fact he never seemed to listen to her. He heard what he wanted to hear. Imo, it was not Lily Potter he was in love with, or even the Lily Evans that left him in his 5th year.

I think if you actually make an effort to get over it, you can still lead a happy life with other romantic partners. I've been a victum of unrequited love, and I'll never forget the person I had the feelings for, but those feelings have died down quite a bit now (it was easier since I hardly see him anymore) and I was able to move on. I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't.

I think also the fact that Lily died had a huge impact on the fact that Snape never got over her; coupled with the fact that he must have felt in some way responsible for her death because it was him who told LV about the prophecy. If Lily had lived and as the years went by maybe he would have eventually got over her. His reaction to hearing of Lily's death in Dumbledore's office in the Prince's Tale still breaks my heart everytime I read it :(, and it also goes a long way to explain why he never got over her.

DeliciousMoon
I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't.

I would probably agree with you to some extent. I’ve been thinking about what Lily meant to Severus. We are told that his parents marriage was fraught & the descriptions of his mother do not hint to kindness in anyway. Lily however, showed him kindness, care and respect (at least early on). These are hard things to turn your back on even more so if the giver of them is the only person to do so, as I think Lily is likely to have been.

I guess it is a matter of how one views her character. I found her pretty forthright, so I would have expected her to comment in the Year 5 scene in which Snape asked her whether they were still best friends.

I do think they had become more distant especially at school, and Lily may have felt more comfortable with her Gryffindor girlfriends by then, but her response suggests to me there was some sense in which she could still think of Snape as a 'best friend'. I tend to think that summers may have been their best times together, when Lily and he went home to the same town, and the different Houses, the Marauders, and Snape's Slytherin pals were all left behind.

As long as he also left his dark interests behind, which is highly doubtful. Snape wasn't drawn to the dark arts because of his friends; Snape was drawn to his friends because they shared his interests. I would say that even in the summer Lily would keep her distance if Snape's interests had by then grown to the point where they became known to her. Lily "left the Marauders and Snape's pals" behind while they were at Hogwarts - so that would not affect her decision in this regard. Her focal point was Snape and his actions, beliefs and behavior - at Hogwarts or at home, Snape would still be...Snape.

I would probably agree with you to some extent. I’ve been thinking about what Lily meant to Severus. We are told that his parents marriage was fraught & the descriptions of his mother do not hint to kindness in anyway. Lily however, showed him kindness, care and respect (at least early on). These are hard things to turn your back on even more so if the giver of them is the only person to do so, as I think Lily is likely to have been.

Which is why I consider the debate about "could" vs. "would" to be strange. Acceptance, kindness, care, and respect are not merely nice things to have. Humans are social animals - we need interactions with others.

If I stole a loaf of bread to keep myself from starving, we could argue that I acted out of my own free will - I could have resisted making that choice if I really wanted to. (I'd also be dead, rats). Whether Snape couldn't, or wouldn't, let go of his feelings for Lily seems semantics to me. He shouldn't have, and he shouldn't be expected to, as I see it.

Whether Snape couldn't, or wouldn't, let go of his feelings for Lily seems semantics to me. He shouldn't have, and he shouldn't be expected to, as I see it.

Why?

I think if you actually make an effort to get over it, you can still lead a happy life with other romantic partners. I've been a victum of unrequited love, and I'll never forget the person I had the feelings for, but those feelings have died down quite a bit now (it was easier since I hardly see him anymore) and I was able to move on. I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't.

You would not forget that person, you said, and I think Snape could not either; added to that was also the fact Lily died and that he had a part in her death; so Snape had loved, lost and was also responsible for the death of that love; the fact he was operating as he did in the books IMO is plain amazing. I think a weaker person would have broken down.

Instead Snape turns and from then on, works unceasingly against Voldemort.

And I also belive that moving on cannot be generalized; Snape too ate, slept, spied, refereed Quidditch matches (okay match) brewed potions, probaby invented a lot more spells and made a lot more corrections to the Advanced Potion making text; he lived too; and he lived with a purpose and a noble one at that.

But I think he was unable to love anyone else as he did Lily; he was not an extrovert who could open up easily. Lily was probably the only one who knew about him, Severus fully. I don't think anybody else knew him as well; not even Dumbledore and he knew Snape enough to trust him with the task of killing him and handing over the message to Harry.

I agree, which is why I don't think Snape was truly in love with Lily. It was love, don't get me wrong. But I believe he loved an image of her he created in his head and I believe so because his ignorance of her strong morals which she openly proclaimed and the fact he never seemed to listen to her. He heard what he wanted to hear. Imo, it was not Lily Potter he was in love with, or even the Lily Evans that left him in his 5th year.

I respectfully disagree; because I think Snape had no illusions about Lily and I also don't think he was loving some image he had created of her in his head. He loved her and because she loved him back the love he had for her as a friend changed to a romantic love; but Lily did not love him like that.

He did not listen to her; but just because he loves her, should he listen to her? The death eaters IMO offered Snape power and a muggle free world; Snape could not IMO look past it.

Now, after seeing what his choice of becoming a death eater would do, Snape may not choose the DEs if he was presented with such a choice again; but at that time, he wanted both; Lily and power. He was foolish to think everything would be fine; that was his mistake, but I cannot agree that just because he loved her, he should listen to her only.

Of course had he listened to her he would not have suffered so much, but that was where IMO snape was blinded by his want and the lack of such things in his life until then.

Love isn't like that IMO and in my experience, even if it leaves you feeling horrible inside, you would still have that over not feeling anything at all.

:tu:

What a lovely post. That moved me a little bit I have to say. :( I agree with everything that you said.

Thank you :)

I think also the fact that Lily died had a huge impact on the fact that Snape never got over her; coupled with the fact that he must have felt in some way responsible for her death because it was him who told LV about the prophecy.

I agree.

If Lily had lived and as the years went by maybe he would have eventually got over her.

I would like to think so as well. While he would have never forgotten her, perhaps he could have moved on, but well...

It is irrational in the sense I feel it cannot be explained. Love is basically acceptance. We see that with Snape. He accepts Lily's rejection, he accepts Lily's love for James, he accepts that love has borne fruit in the form of Harry, he accepts she does not want to have to do anything with him, and he also accepts that she would never love him IMO.

After I read The Prince's Tale I thought Snape accepted that Lily had romantic feelings for another man, the person he loathed until the day he died. I don't know if he did really accept it, though, now that I've read that chapter a few times. Snape ripped up the picture with Lily and her family and kept the part for Lily for himself, leaving James and Harry behind. I always felt uneasy with the symbolism behind it, and it's left me with the impression that Snape never really accepted Lily's choice in who she'd spend the rest of her life with.

Why?

While you asked zgirnius, I would also like to answer. :)

Because IMO that was his private affair; his choice to be in love or to move on.

But I think he was unable to love anyone else as he did Lily; he was not an extrovert who could open up easily. Lily was probably the only one who knew about him, Severus fully. I don't think anybody else knew him as well; not even Dumbledore and he knew Snape enough to trust him with the task of killing him and handing over the message to Harry.
I don't think Snape would let himself open up to anyone else. That does not mean that he was unable to love anyone else.

I respectfully disagree; because I think Snape had no illusions about Lily and I also don't think he was loving some image he had created of her in his head. He loved her and because she loved him back the love he had for her as a friend changed to a romantic love; but Lily did not love him like that.
Listening to a person is a key factor to getting to know them as a person. If Snape only listened to Lily when she said something he wanted to hear, and ignored her morals and opinions that he disagreed with, how could he have gotten to know her as the person she really was?

I respectfully disagree; because I think Snape had no illusions about Lily and I also don't think he was loving some image he had created of her in his head. He loved her and because she loved him back the love he had for her as a friend changed to a romantic love; but Lily did not love him like that.

Snape wasn't thinking about a 15 year old Lily. He would have left the photo intact if that were the case. Snape ripped and stole the picture of a 21 year old Lily - that is the woman he wanted for himself and the one he imagined. Unfortunately, he didn't know that woman or what being in love with her would be like, but he imagined it and he liked what he imagined.

I would call that having illusions that Lily was the perfect woman for him to be in love with because he couldn't know that, but he believed it anyway. the only person she was romantic with (that we know of) is James. So James would know what it was like to be in love with a mature Lily - and be loved in return by her in a romantic way. I don't see how Sanpe could know that - as far as we know, he never had a girlfriend he was in love with his whole life. In that case he would not only have no idea what being in love really meant AND he'd have know idea what being in love with Lily was like. Snape, imo, had unrequited love for a vision.

After I read The Prince's Tale I thought Snape accepted that Lily had romantic feelings for another man, the person he loathed until the day he died. I don't know if he did really accept it, though, now that I've read that chapter a few times. Snape ripped up the picture with Lily and her family and kept the part for Lily for himself, leaving James and Harry behind. I always felt uneasy with the symbolism behind it, and it's left me with the impression that Snape never really accepted Lily's choice in who she'd spend the rest of her life with.

I don't think Snape accepted it. The way he treated Harry is evidence for that.

I don't think Snape accepted it. The way he treated Harry is evidence for that.
:agree: I agree completely. Snape's treatment of Harry (living proof that Lily preferred another man over him) makes it clear to me that Snape never accepted Lily's choice. Him tearing the photo also has some powerful symbolism behind it.

WWB
Snape wasn't thinking about a 15 year old Lily. He would have left the photo intact if that were the case. Snape ripped and stole the picture of a 21 year old Lily - that is the woman he wanted for himself and the one he imagined. Unfortunately, he didn't know that woman or what being in love with her would be like, but he imagined it and he liked what he imagined.

I would call that having illusions that Lily was the perfect woman for him to be in love with because he couldn't know that, but he believed it anyway. the only person she was romantic with (that we know of) is James. So James would know what it was like to be in love with a mature Lily - and be loved in return by her in a romantic way. I don't see how Sanpe could know that - as far as we know, he never had a girlfriend he was in love with his whole life. In that case he would not only have no idea what being in love really meant AND he'd have know idea what being in love with Lily was like. Snape, imo, had unrequited love for a vision.
:agree: I agree completely. :tu:

Imo, he did not truly know the Lily he was "best friends" with, and there was no possibly way he could have known the woman she grew up to be.

I don't think Snape would let himself open up to anyone else. That does not mean that he was unable to love anyone else.

I think it would have been better for Snape to move on from his feelings for Lily. The way he felt about her remained constant for the rest of his life and it would have been a healthier choice for him to move on and let go of the grudges he has that is related to her. His love for Lily made his hatred for James worse, and because of that he unjustifiably transfers his hatred onto Harry. Had he moved on, he may have been a better person.

Listening to a person is a key factor to getting to know them as a person. If Snape only listened to Lily when she said something he wanted to hear, and ignored her morals and opinions that he disagreed with, how could he have gotten to know her as the person she really was?

:tu: I agree, I never felt that Snape really understood who Lily was and who she stood for. In addition to what you said, he bullied her son. While he did understand why Lily died and acted on his love for Lily to protect Harry, he ignored another part of her: her disgust with bullying. It's very easy to deduce that Lily abhorred all forms of bullying by her speech in SWM, and I am at loss for why Snape didn't pay attention to that and treat her son or other students in a more mature manner. IMO, it seems like Snape only listened to what he wanted to listen when it came to Lily.

I think if you actually make an effort to get over it, you can still lead a happy life with other romantic partners. I've been a victum of unrequited love, and I'll never forget the person I had the feelings for, but those feelings have died down quite a bit now (it was easier since I hardly see him anymore) and I was able to move on. I think if Snape tried, he could have gotten over Lily, but he wouldn't let himself. I believe it wasn't because he couldn't, it's because he didn't want to, and so wouldn't.

I am pretty certain he didn't want to. I think it's logical that he didn't want to - Lily comprised all the happiness in his life. Perhaps his love for her was the only thing that had ever made him happy. I wouldn't want that out of my life either.

Actually, I've been in his shoes, in a way. I've had people tell me to move on and let go but I didn't want to, because I wouldn't give up something which to me was the only thing which made sense in my life, and made me happy. Although it was as hopeless, to an outside observer, as Snape's case. By all this I don't mean that this is natural or good or healthy, but just that I think I can understand his choice very well. I feel I know what drove him, because of my own personal experience in a situation which was in a certain way similar.

i agree Yoana

cuz hes always had a horrible life! in his home, at skool
and when lilys gone hes really last all he has

Whoa, Snape had a sense of humor? When? I never noticed anything Snape said that was particularly funny.
Snape is one of the funniest characters in the books!
"Would you like me to do it now or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"
That is the best line in the whole series!
I also love his "You head does not have permission to be in Hogsmeade"

I think also the fact that Lily died had a huge impact on the fact that Snape never got over her; coupled with the fact that he must have felt in some way responsible for her death because it was him who told LV about the prophecy. If Lily had lived and as the years went by maybe he would have eventually got over her. His reaction to hearing of Lily's death in Dumbledore's office in the Prince's Tale still breaks my heart everytime I read it , and it also goes a long way to explain why he never got over her.
Yes, I am of the opinion that Snape was getting on with his life, and getting over Lily, when the whole prophecy thing brought her back into his life. I think unrequited love is something that people can and do get over, but to have had a hand in their death is a completely different circumstance, and I can easily understand why Snape found it so hard to move on. It wasn't the unrequited love so much as the remorse, regret, guilt and grief that Snape couldn't get over. :(


I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people. He wanted a picture of Lily to comfort him during the Dark days ahead - what's wrong with that? He loathed the other two people in the picture so he removed them - it's a picture! Whatever symbolism anyone sees in it, Snape did not attempt to split the Potter family up. He may have wanted to but he didn't. The fact remains that he would rather Lily was alive and with James and Harry than dead.

I always thought Snape was going to die in book 7 - it was the only logical conclusion to his story. If anyone is interested I wrote a fanfic which is like an alternate book 7 (I wrote it before DH came out) but all about Snape and how he does move on and has a Happy Ending. I'll put a link in my sig sometime *End of Shameless plug*

I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people.

Technically, Snape was committing a crime by stealing a photo that didn't belong to him. Some fans are bothered by this because the photo belonged to Harry who barely had any photos of his mother. I think that Harry should have had the picture - after all, he, unlike Snape, didn't have any memories of Lily.

Personally, I find it disturbing every time I read that chapter.

He wanted a picture of Lily to comfort him during the Dark days ahead - what's wrong with that?

I don't think there's a problem with that but rather the measures he used in order to make sure he had Lily's comfort. As I said above, taking the picture was theft. Harry had the comfort of Lily, James, Sirius and Remus when he was talking towards his death, but he did not steal the ring.

He loathed the other two people in the picture so he removed them - it's a picture! Whatever symbolism anyone sees in it, Snape did not attempt to split the Potter family up. He may have wanted to but he didn't. The fact remains that he would rather Lily was alive and with James and Harry than dead.

That's your interpretation of the symbolism and my interpretation differs. I see the symbolism by the way Snape ripped the picture, as if to keep Lily for himself. That, coupled with how he was willing to turn James and Harry in order to have Lily for himself (as Dumbledore says himself), disturbs me. He may have not acted on it by trying to split them up when he was alive, but the way he felt was there, and that's what bothers fans like myself.

Technically, Snape was committing a crime by stealing a photo that didn't belong to him. Some fans are bothered by this because the photo belonged to Harry who barely had any photos of his mother. I think that Harry should have had the picture - after all, he, unlike Snape, didn't have any memories of Lily.

Personally, I find it disturbing every time I read that chapter.

:agree: So do I. It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved? :no:

and hary has pics of lily
i doubt snape does

Snape had memories. At that point in the book Harry did not, unless you count the instance when he heard his mother die.

Yes, I am of the opinion that Snape was getting on with his life, and getting over Lily, when the whole prophecy thing brought her back into his life.

Not that getting on with his life as a death eater is anything to write home to mama about, but I would agree that because he was fighting with others who were trying to kill Lily, he had likely convinced himself that he hated her for chosing James over him.

I think unrequited love is something that people can and do get over, but to have had a hand in their death is a completely different circumstance, and I can easily understand why Snape found it so hard to move on. It wasn't the unrequited love so much as the remorse, regret, guilt and grief that Snape couldn't get over. :(

The only problem with the idea that it 'wasn't so much unrequited love' is that the doe is then left unexplained. Regret, remorse, guilt and grief do not control one's patronus. Rather one's "happy thought" does and when that is accompanied by feelings of love (of whatever kind) it can transform the patronus.


I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people.

I can't speak for others, but my problem is not that he wished to make himself feel better, but rather that he resorted to thievery to do so - and he stole the items from Harry, who he knew would treasure them and had a right to treasure them, more than Snape did (he was the owner, it was his family). One can't justify stealing a family heirloom.

It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved? :no:
:lol: The way you worded that amused me for some reason. :p I agree with you. :tu:

Beatifically
That's your interpretation of the symbolism and my interpretation differs. I see the symbolism by the way Snape ripped the picture, as if to keep Lily for himself. That, coupled with how he was willing to turn James and Harry in order to have Lily for himself (as Dumbledore says himself), disturbs me. He may have not acted on it by trying to split them up when he was alive, but the way he felt was there, and that's what bothers fans like myself.
:agree: I see it symbolising that too. Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily's life in exchange for her husband and son. Pretty sick, imo. And I felt the photo symbolised this as well as showed us that he never accepted Lily's choice. JMO of course.

and hary has pics of lily
i doubt snape does

Indeed, he has an albumful, a gift from Hagrid.

He also has, if he wants them, memories of his mother, in the form of Snape's dying gift to him.

Of course, Snape lived and died the year of DH, believing that Harry would certainly and unavoidably die, so he would not have expected Harry to be in a position to enjoy either the photo or the memories (or the letter). Further, by including the memory of himself tearing the photo among those he gave Harry, Snape ensured that if Harry wants both the letter and the photo, he can have them. I am confident in suggesting that Harry needs do no more than recover Snape's body from the Shack and repossess them.

I wonder whether he did, or whether he decided they should be buried with Snape. :)

u think one more photo wil make a difference?


and furthermore, if u lived a life like him.... id be a death eater too you noe but he wasnt. he's strong

if you saw a picture of someone u loved lying there and u ahve such bad memories and u lose the one good thing u ahve,, ud probably without thinking rip it and just keep the part of lily for you because tahts what i would do.

Yeah, but it's still not the right thing to do. He was stealing from Harry, for his own personal gain. That's just not right. :no:

u think one more photo wil make a difference?

Well, considering the fact that Harry never got the chance to even talk to his own mother, I am sure that Harry would have loved to be in posession of another picture of his mother. He even looks for it in DH, if I remember correctly.

and furthermore, if u lived a life like him.... id be a death eater too you noe but he wasnt. he's strong

Numerous characters in the HP series underwent traumatical experiences. Sirius, for one, had an abusive home, but he never succumbed to the lure of the Dark Arts or Voldemort's regime. I do not see how Snape's past - as tragic as it was - is ever an excuse for his behavior, especially since one of the biggest theme of the series is the importance of choices. Snape chose to do what he did, and that is a reflection of who he was.

if you saw a picture of someone u loved lying there and u ahve such bad memories and u lose the one good thing u ahve,, ud probably without thinking rip it and just keep the part of lily for you because tahts what i would do.

No, I wouldn't because theft - in my opinion - is a horrendous crime. And I would understand that an orphan deserves to have the photo more than I do.

but what lily did wasnt right either.

it was hardly stealing anyways

harry barely new about it and like i said wut would u do in tat posttion. i dont think he was thinking about stealing or anything. he was just thinging about hwo much he loved her

beautifically:
yes but sirius had friends, love everything

h would have been a worse guy then snape if he had wut snape "had"

but what lily did wasnt right either.

What did Lily do that was wrong? :huh:

it was hardly stealing anyways

How is that not considered stealing? Stealing is, by definition, the illegal taking of another's property without his or her consent.

As for Snape lying - I'm not sure what you mean by that :shrug:
Well, Snape tells Lily that they are best friends, but I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Snape really considered Lily as a friend.

I think he valued their friendship but he behaved like a jerk. It happens.
Not from what we see on-page, IMO. I agree that he behaved horribly though, but I think jerk is putting it mildly. I didn't know what 'jerk' really meant, so I looked it up. :lol:
Jerk: a dull stupid foolish person
I think that Snapes behaviour in going to Dumbledore showed that he valued Lily above everything.
I'm not contesting that at all. I meant their friendship, not Snape's romance. Lily valued it so much that she lied and made excuses for him all the time. She was willing to stand up for him when he was clearly unpopular. It doesn't appear that Snape did anything of the sort.

And just because Snape's behaviour is at time disgusting, that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know how to relate to people, and that he is generally an awkward loner.
Ironically, after looking at the situations again, I saw that the only time he's shown alone is during SWM, which could just mean that his friends weren't the kind who would risk their necks for him, or that they just weren't around at the time.

We're told that he used to hang out with a gang of Slytherins who all became DEs. We're shown that he was accepted and welcomed into Slytherin by Lucius Malfoy. Sirius later calls him Malfoy's lapdog, which does indicate that they were close. He also supposedly hangs out with Avery and Mulciber, after Lucius has left. He even seems to be close to Narcissa, and perhaps, even to Bellatrix. He was also one of Slughorn's proteges, apparently. So, I can't say that he was 'socially awkward', because he seems to have had no trouble at all with all these people.

It is easy to just write someone off as a nasty piece of work, but I would far rather pick over the minutiae of what is, to me, the most interesting character in the book. For me that means going beyond judging his behaviour and looking at the the psychology of the character and all the influences - both external and internal - that effect his behaviour.
IMO, Snape is interesting because he is not all bad. We're shown that he can be caring and even affectionate when he wants to be, and also that he chooses not to, most of the time, and that he enjoys being rude and cruel.

Let us not forget that the marauders were not averse to hexing Snape (or anyone else for that matter) "just for fun"
I'm not forgetting that at all. It's just that I'm referring to 7th year James, who had stopped doing that.
What we see in SWM is effectively Snape's friend (Lily) coming to help him out. Being the peacable kind she tries to get James to stop rather than hexing him back.
I think that this would be another good explanation for why Snape felt that James only ever took on him when it was four on one. James's best friend was the hotheaded kind who would rather start hexing himself than hold James back, like Lily would have done for Snape. Remus was too insecure to pull them back sternly, and Peter joined in for the 'fun'.

In other words there was particular emnity between Snape and James that meant that they continued to hex each other even after James had calmed down and stopped hexing people randomly for fun. I don't think it is meant to imply that James never initiated a hex battle, and only ever retaliated.
I completely disagree. If we strip that sentence down, we get, Snape took every opportunity to curse James, and James never let Snape get away with it. How does that imply that James initiated attacks? If Lupin wanted to convey that James started the fights, he could have said "They never missed a chance to hex each other", instead. That would have been clearer. I don't think that Lupin was downplaying it in favour of James either.

For us to have a rational discussion about Snape and Lily's relationship, does not require that Snape and Lily act rationally. (I think neither did.) It just requires us to examine the evidence in canon in a rational way, even if it is evidence of irrational actions by the characters, based on emotions not ruled by reason.
True. Neither Snape nor Lily acted rationally with regard to each other. Snape couldn't accept that Lily disapproved of his methods, or that her priorities were different, and Lily made excuses and lied because she didn't want to face the truth about Snape's behaviour.

As far as romantic feelings are concerned, though, Lily seems to be able to deal with things a lot more rationally. She liked James, even when he was an arrogant toerag, but she never let herself do anything about it, until he grew out of that phase. That tells me that Lily valued friendship a lot more than romance. She was willing to cut her friend some slack, but not her love interest. Which is another reason why I don't think SNape and Lily could have had a romantic relationship.

Well, considering the fact that Harry never got the chance to even talk to his own mother, I am sure that Harry would have loved to be in posession of another picture of his mother. He even looks for it in DH, if I remember correctly.
He combs the entire room for the second half of the letter.

Numerous characters in the HP series underwent traumatical experiences. Sirius, for one, had an abusive home, but he never succumbed to the lure of the Dark Arts or Voldemort's regime. I do not see how Snape's past - as tragic as it was - is ever an excuse for his behavior, especially since one of the biggest theme of the series is the importance of choices. Snape chose to do what he did, and that is a reflection of who he was.
The only thing Snape regretted doing as a death eater is handing over the prophecy that resulted in Lily's death. I wonder how many people he tortured and killed before that... :no: I agree that a tragic past is absolutely no excuse. There are plenty of characters with bad pasts that did not become death eaters. Snape just loved the dark arts.

but what lily did wasnt right either.

:huh: What did Lily do that was wrong?

it was hardly stealing anyways

It was. Snape broke into Harry's house, and stole things. That's stealing, no matter how little the objects were. They were of great sentimental value to Harry, and he owned them.

harry barely new about it and like i said wut would u do in tat posttion. i dont think he was thinking about stealing or anything. he was just thinging about hwo much he loved her

Just because real people would do that in a situation, it doesn't make it right. And if he was thinking about how much he loved her, then I suppose love blinded him from realizing that he committed a crime. :shrug:

:agree: So do I. It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved? :no:

I have to disagree. He didn't falsely love her, he probably loved her too much. But you're only 14/15, so I don't expect you to understand Brian. :p

I have to disagree. He didn't falsely love her, he probably loved her too much. But you're only 14/15, so I don't expect you to understand Brian. :p

:rolleyes: Of course... But actually, his feelings started when they were only ten/eleven. I just don't think it's possible to truly love someone like that at such a young age. He was obsessed with her too much, but I don't think he loved her too much. Just my opinion. :)

I can't speak for others, but my problem is not that he wished to make himself feel better, but rather that he resorted to thievery to do so - and he stole the items from Harry, who he knew would treasure them and had a right to treasure them, more than Snape did (he was the owner, it was his family). One can't justify stealing a family heirloom.

To be honest, it doesn't upset me because I think it's wrong, well it is wrong, but it upsets me more because he was so deep in grief etc., that he had to resort to stealing a photograph.

Technically, Snape was committing a crime by stealing a photo that didn't belong to him. Some fans are bothered by this because the photo belonged to Harry who barely had any photos of his mother. I think that Harry should have had the picture - after all, he, unlike Snape, didn't have any memories of Lily.
Well I wouldn't have begrudged Snape the photo in the circumstances and I don't think Harry did either once he knew who had taken the photo and why.
I really don't see it as stealing (though technically it is) - probably because Harry had owned the house for over a year and had never thought to search it for momentoes of Sirius or his parents, so I just don't think that Harry had a need for it in the way that Snape did.
I don't find that scene disturbing just incredibly sad! I cannot begin to imagine how Severus was feeling at that time having just killed Dumbledore - the only other true friend he'd ever had. I think Harry understands this, understands Snape's need at that time for a scrap of comfort and I don't think Harry begrudged him that. If Harry is okay with it then I don't see why it should bother anyone else - afterall it was his photo of his family.
Is it wrong for a starving person to steal bread?
Is it wrong for a person starved of affection and in desperate need to steal a potion (ETA :lol: I meant portion)of a photo?
I would say no to both.

I have to disagree. He didn't falsely love her, he probably loved her too much. But you're only 14/15, so I don't expect you to understand Brian. :p
I think bringing age into this and using it as a sign of ignorance is pretty rude.

I believe Snape falsely loved Lily because he never listened to her and paid attention only to what he wanted to hear. And in so doing this he missed such a huge part of Lily as a person. Even acquaintances of Lily would have known she was opposed to the dark arts, as she was very open with that sort of thing. Snape never got it. There is also no way he could have truly loved the Lily in the picture, because this Lily had grown from the Lily he was friends with at age 15.

:rolleyes: Of course... But actually, his feelings started when they were only ten/eleven. I just don't think it's possible to truly love someone like that at such a young age. He was obsessed with her too much, but I don't think he loved her too much. Just my opinion. :)

Aw I was joking! :( :huggles:

But yes, I agree with you in a sense. I doubt he loved her in the full sense of the word when he was 10/11, he liked her obviously, but those feelings didn't progress into love until he was older. :)

Aw I was joking! :( :huggles:

But yes, I agree with you in a sense. I doubt he loved her in the full sense of the word when he was 10/11, he liked her obviously, but those feelings didn't progress into love until he was older. :)

:p Don't worry, I knew that. :huggles:

Well, I didn't see his feelings for her as love really, more as a teenage boy with a false idea of lovegoing crazy about a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him. All IMO. :)

Aw I was joking! :(
Missed that sorry. :p

Snape did obsess over Lily too much. He tended to obsess over a lot of things. Just another flaw of his character Lily wasn't too fond of.. I definitely think Snape had obsessive love for a false image of Lily.

Well I wouldn't have begrudged Snape the photo in the circumstances and I don't think Harry did either once he knew who had taken the photo and why.

Of course Harry didn't, but I can't feel the same way as he does. I find the fact that Harry never got the chance to talk to his parents properly heartbreaking (as you can tell by my signature :upset:) and that leads to my irritation with how Snape ripped the picture in half.

I really don't see it as stealing (though technically it is) - probably because Harry had owned the house for over a year and had never thought to search it for momentoes of Sirius or his parents, so I just don't think that Harry had a need for it in the way that Snape did.

Even though Harry hadn't gone through that house doesn't mean that the photo was still his. It was and I see no justification for stealing it without Harry's consent.

And I disagree - Harry did need it for his parents provided him strength. I can't agree that an orphan does not need reminders of his or her parents. Harry did, after all, take the only portion of the photograph with him on his journey to hunt Horcruxes.

:p Don't worry, I knew that. :huggles:

Well, I didn't see his feelings for her as love really, more as a teenage boy with a false idea of lovegoing crazy about a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him. All IMO. :)

Yes but who's to say that a teenage boy going crazy for a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him isn't love? I think it is love, but this is just my opinion. :D

okaii heres where i thiink lily went wrong:

she befriends him.... but at skool she wont hang out with him

so wut does she want? him to be a loner

so he talks to some other slytherins

these slytherins use mudblood as a commmon day word

it spreads to snape, he tries not to use it but its there in his language

then he uses it and lily dpesnt forgive him? ***? no mann, since she didnt forgive him i thinks its an excuse to get rid of him... and then she marries er "best friends" worst enemy, and so really its her fault more than snapes u noe?

She left snape for a reason, though. I don't think it was only the fact that he said Mudblood sometimes, but that he was hanging around with Death Eaters at all. That must have upset Lily a lot. And all the Death Eaters blanned to torture Muggleborns, didn't they? So obviously Liy wouldn't like that. I don't find her at fault at all.

She left snape for a reason, though. I don't think it was only the fact that he said Mudblood sometimes, but that he was hanging around with Death Eaters at all. That must have upset Lily a lot. And all the Death Eaters blanned to torture Muggleborns, didn't they? So obviously Liy wouldn't like that. I don't find her at fault at all.

but see she wouldnt chill with him at skool so wut does she want? a loner?
just cuz he TALKED to death eaters (soon to be death eaters not yet) doesnt mean he was gonna be one

i think she w was looking for and excuse to throw him away

y would u give up friendships like that so easliy?

okaii heres where i thiink lily went wrong:

she befriends him.... but at skool she wont hang out with him
Actually we do see them hanging out at school, so I don't know where you got this assumption.

so wut does she want? him to be a loner
She didn't want a friend who wanted to join a group of people who wanted to kill people like her. She didn't want a friend who found preforming dark arts on girls funny. She gave Snape five years to change and realised that he never would and was only going further down the dark path, even with her trying to help him. What more should she have done?

so he talks to some other slytherins
He talks to the Slytherins because they share a common interest in the dark arts and becoming death eaters. They also share a common room, so they'd have plenty of other chances to talk. Lily didn't have to be Snape's only friend.

these slytherins use mudblood as a commmon day word

it spreads to snape, he tries not to use it but its there in his language
He uses it before he called Lily a mudblood and he believes in what he is saying because he joined the death eaters. He had an issue with muggleborns even as a child before Hogwarts which I got from his long pause after Lily's question, "does being muggleborn make a difference".

then he uses it and lily dpesnt forgive him? ***? no mann, since she didnt forgive him i thinks its an excuse to get rid of him... and then she marries er "best friends" worst enemy, and so really its her fault more than snapes u noe?
Why should Lily forgive someone like that? She loved James - she shouldn't have married him because an old friend who never listened to her and joined a group trying to kill her didn't like the man?!

she befriends him.... but at skool she wont hang out with him

so wut does she want? him to be a loner

Since when did Lily not hang out with him? Can you please provide canon to support this? We do see from DH that she did hang out with him so I am in disagreement with this statement. Of course Lily didn't hang out with Snape all the time and she has every right to hang out with other people - she had other friends, too.

so he talks to some other slytherins

these slytherins use mudblood as a commmon day word

it spreads to snape, he tries not to use it but its there in his language

The only person to be blamed for that is Snape himself, not Lily.

then he uses it and lily dpesnt forgive him? ***? no mann, since she didnt forgive him i thinks its an excuse to get rid of him...

Are you suggesting that Snape is justified for using a racial slur against his "best friend"? I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

And that was not the only reason why Lily dropped her friendship with Snape. She stopped being friends with him because of his attraction to the Dark Arts (which he found amusing when used against others), his friendships with future Death Eaters, his desire to be a Death Eater, and his use of slurs against people.

The fact that Snape used Mudblood against her isn't what got her to end the friendship, it's her realization that Snape is becoming a person that went against her morals. I see no reason to fault a person for sticking to his or her morals.

and then she marries er "best friends" worst enemy, and so really its her fault more than snapes u noe?

Why is her love for James something bad about her? :huh: She wasn't best friends with Snape when she married James. She had every right to marry the love of her life.

Indeed, he has an albumful, a gift from Hagrid.

He also has, if he wants them, memories of his mother, in the form of Snape's dying gift to him.

Of course, Snape lived and died the year of DH, believing that Harry would certainly and unavoidably die, so he would not have expected Harry to be in a position to enjoy either the photo or the memories (or the letter). Further, by including the memory of himself tearing the photo among those he gave Harry, Snape ensured that if Harry wants both the letter and the photo, he can have them. I am confident in suggesting that Harry needs do no more than recover Snape's body from the Shack and repossess them.

I wonder whether he did, or whether he decided they should be buried with Snape. :)

I don't get it, so if you know a dying man has eight motorcycles it is righteous to steal all the motorcyle parts from one of his bikes that you need for yourself? I don't see the logic that makes that act right. Plus the uniqueness of that photo could not be made up for by 'other photos' depicting Harry's parents. That photo was of the family having a good time together.

The fact that Snape knew Harry had to walk to his death, and might wish to spend his last moments on earth with all of his earthly treasures only serves as a further reason Snape should not have nicked the items.

I would imagine Harry did repossess his beloved treasures that did not belong to Snape - if he could find them. You assume they were on his person, but Snape could have placed them anywhere. For Harry to have to go upon a quest and search all of kingdom come for the items prior to walking to his death woud be a ludicrous thought for Snape to have in justifying his action, imo.

She left snape for a reason, though. I don't think it was only the fact that he said Mudblood sometimes, but that he was hanging around with Death Eaters at all. That must have upset Lily a lot. And all the Death Eaters blanned to torture Muggleborns, didn't they? So obviously Liy wouldn't like that. I don't find her at fault at all.

Yes I agree with that. Lily didn't like the fact that Snape hung around with people that liked to torture muggles, and when she confronted him about it he made excuses for them and tried to turn the conversation around to about the 'bad things' that James and Sirius had been up to.

so really u guys think that lily has done nothing wrong in snapes life? at all?

The only wrong I see with what Lily did is not end her friendship with him sooner.

and if u wre picked on and stuff ud want more than one friend

Yes, but I would also listen to my friend if he or she told me that I was participating in activities that are considered to be evil by society.

and plus u would wnat revege and pick on others with "dark magic"

Dark Magic and revenge are never justified - it just shows that the person is just as bad as another, IMO. So, no, I would never go so low as to use Dark Magic.

Beatifically
The only wrong I see with what Lily did is not end her friendship with him sooner.
:agree: Agree.

It was not Lily's responsibility to be Snape's friend. Imo, leaving Snape was not a bad thing to do. She tried to change him for five years, she saw it was not only making no impact, but he was actually becoming worse as a person! Just because she did not want to associate with a future death eater, did not make her a bad person.

Snape was lucky Lily stubbornly stayed by his side for so long imo.

I think jerk is putting it mildly
:rotfl: Yes it's that famous English habit of understatement!

We're told that he used to hang out with a gang of Slytherins who all became DEs. We're shown that he was accepted and welcomed into Slytherin by Lucius Malfoy. Sirius later calls him Malfoy's lapdog, which does indicate that they were close. He also supposedly hangs out with Avery and Mulciber, after Lucius has left. He even seems to be close to Narcissa, and perhaps, even to Bellatrix. He was also one of Slughorn's proteges, apparently. So, I can't say that he was 'socially awkward', because he seems to have had no trouble at all with all these people.
But Snape doesn't have any real friends apart from Lily and Dumbledore. I'm not sure that he was one of Slughorn's proteges either but I won't go into that here. The way I see it is that Harry had Ron and Hermione - yeah they had arguments but as friends went they were great. Voldemort didn't even want friends. I see Snape as someone who was nervous of other people and the way they would react to him. He was afraid of rejection, and that combined with a naturally introverted personality made him socially awkward. He didn't like social occasions and didn't mix well.
And I disagree - Harry did need it for his parents provided him strength. I can't agree that an orphan does not need reminders of his or her parents. Harry did, after all, take the only portion of the photograph with him on his journey to hunt Horcruxes.

I worded it badly. I think Snape's need was greater than Harry's at that time.

Yes but who's to say that a teenage boy going crazy for a girl who didn't have the same feelings for him isn't love? I think it is love, but this is just my opinion.
Mine too! I think his subsequent actions show that it was love. Harry certainly though it was love.

nah i cant agree with all that
:lol: this is getting intense

u really think she shouldve ended it sooner?
ppl make mistakes u noe

forgive and forget u noe move on

i think snape has barely done anything wrong tho

compared with lily
People make mistakes, yes. Snape did not just make a mistake, he joined a group that performed evil magic, a group aspiring to be Death Eaters - people who kill and torture those of Lily's heritage. How would you feel if your best friend joined a group devoted to killing people who are like you? I'm sorry, but I fail to see how you can consider that barely doing anything wrong. Lily tried to continue the friendship; despite everything Snape was doing, she continued to be a good friend to him. Using a word that's probably the foulest name in the wizarding world on her was the final straw.

i think snape has barely done anything wrong tho

compared with lily
Could you please explain what you think Lily should have done instead to be labelled a "good friend"?

Yes I agree with that. Lily didn't like the fact that Snape hung around with people that liked to torture muggles,

There is no canon that Snape's friends liked to torture Muggles. Some of them went on to such pastimes, certainly, but I see no indication this was already a favorite activity while they were at school. Lily's stated reason to objecting to the behavior of Snape's friends was something they tried (as in, did not succeed) to do to a student in Gryffindor House. And I find it unlikely this something was the Unforgivable Cruciatus Curse, even.

But Snape doesn't have any real friends apart from Lily and Dumbledore.

How do you know what Snape's friendships with Mulciber and Avery were really like?

he chose dumbledore and lily over them
he ended up betraying them

that should give u an idea

yeah and zgirnias is rite.. they diddnt do such activities baak in skool

they wrent even death eaters

they wre just ppl that wre i guess in a way mean... like james and them

There is no canon that Snape's friends liked to torture Muggles. Some of them went on to such pastimes, certainly, but I see no indication this was already a favorite activity while they were at school. Lily's stated reason to objecting to the behavior of Snape's friends was something they tried (as in, did not succeed) to do to a student in Gryffindor House. And I find it unlikely this something was the Unforgivable Cruciatus Curse, even.

My mistake. :) I haven't got the books to hand and I get things a bit muddled when I try and remember them. :lol: :sigh:

he chose dumbledore and lily over them
he ended up betraying them

that should give u an idea
That really doesn't have anything to do with his friendship with them, as it was years later that he chose to turn to Dumbledore's side. I believe DeliciousMoon was referring mainly to his friendships with them while in school (correct me if I'm wrong). He chose to betray them when Lily was going to be killed - he didn't seem to care how many other people were killed by what he was doing, but when it was someone he personally was obsessed with, it suddenly became a problem. Had Lily not been targetted, Snape never would have stopped being a Death Eater. In addition, Lily had already thrice defied Voldemort. Snape didn't choose Lily over the Death Eaters those three times - he only did once he knew it would be partly his fault if she died.

yeah and zgirnias is rite.. they diddnt do such activities baak in skool

they wrent even death eaters

they wre just ppl that wre i guess in a way mean... like james and them
We have no canon that they did anything particularly awful, but we have no canon that they didn't. Lily said Snape didn't even deny that they were planning on joining Voldemort, which means Snape was joining a cause devoted to killing people of Lily's heritage.

he chose dumbledore and lily over them
he ended up betraying them
Yeah, but Lily chose James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter over Snape. Does that mean she was never close to Snape?

so really u guys think that lily has done nothing wrong in snapes life? at all?

and if u wre picked on and stuff ud want more than one friend and plus u would wnat revege and pick on others with "dark magic"

If I were getting picked on, I would not use Dark Magic and such to deal with it. Never. I don't think Lily really did anything wrong in her Snape's relationship. Snape ended it by himself by hnging around with the wrong crowd and using the "Mudblood" word.

We have no canon that they did anything particularly awful, but we have no canon that they didn't. Lily said Snape didn't even deny that they were planning on joining Voldemort, which means Snape was joining a cause devoted to killing people of Lily's heritage.

We do have canon that Lily did not know of any such activity. Otherwise, she would not have brought up the thing that was not quite done to Mary McDonald, she would have brought up something real.

Unless, of course, it only mattered to Lily when it was one of her friends. ;)

Snape not denying he was going to join Voldemort proves little, for two reasons. First, he was pretty inarticulate in that final conversation - he may not have denied it simply because he was trying to say something else. Something I imagine he probably rehearsed (as one might a very dificult apology or similar conversation) and then Lily left the script on him and made it difficult for him to get a complete sentence out.

Second, because in the opinion of Sirius Black, who has no reason I can see in this instance to lie, his brother Regulus (in a lower year than Snape, that is, later) joined the Death Eaters without knowing how far Voldemort was willing to go. If a Black, a scion of an old, Dark, Pureblood family, could make such a mistake of fact, it is far easier to imagine a Half-blood raised partly in the Muggle world would.

and deathlyH
if ur ebing hmuliated in front of everyone ud use some foullanguage too.... he grew up hearing that word it came naturally.. it just acme out hes hardly to blame

He didn't join the Death Eaters only because he was picked on at school. He had really always intended to join them, I think. He didn't join just to seek revenge on all who had picked on him.

yeah and zgirnias is rite.. they diddnt do such activities baak in skool

Thanks. :)

I want to say I agree with you to an extent, that Lily was not 100% blameless in the breakup of the friendship. Though I would not go so far as to absolve Severus of any share of the blame. I voted for the second option in the poll. :D

I want to say I agree with you to an extent, that Lily was not 100% blameless in the breakup of the friendship. Though I would not go so far as to absolve Severus of any share of the blame. I voted for the second option in the poll. :D

I respect your opinion, but when she ended their friendship, Snape was already going down a bad path, and she had warned him about that. He didn't listen to her and continued to hang out with those people, and then called her a Mudblood. IMO it was right of her to end their relationship then, before Snape got any worse.

Second, because in the opinion of Sirius Black, who has no reason I can see in this instance to lie, his brother Regulus (in a lower year than Snape, that is, later) joined the Death Eaters without knowing how far Voldemort was willing to go. If a Black, a scion of an old, Dark, Pureblood family, could make such a mistake of fact, it is far easier to imagine a Half-blood raised partly in the Muggle world would.
The difference between Regulus and Snape is Regulus realised what Voldemort was doing was actually wrong and he changed his morals. Snape only cared when Lily was targetted and would not have switched sides had she not been.

I want to say I agree with you to an extent, that Lily was not 100% blameless in the breakup of the friendship.
Well it takes two to break up a friendship. She was the one who ended it. I wouldn't say she wasn't at least a little to blame for the end of the friendship, but I don't think she did anything wrong by ending it. In fact, I believe it was a very good decision.

yeah I guess you're right zgnirias
but i do think that lily was to blame more

no DeathlyH if he had planned it all his life he wouldn't have be-friended lily. and no it wasnt to seek revenge and all that

it was partly that and he had broken heart (im not saying he dealt with it all that nicely) but it was how he dealt with it.
but in my opinion he made up for it

no DeathlyH if he had planned it all his life he wouldn't have be-friended lily. and no it wasnt to seek revenge and all that

it was partly that and he had broken heart (im not saying he dealt with it all that nicely) but it was how he dealt with it.
but in my opinion he made up for it

But didn't it look like he had expected Lily to follow this path too? He willingly went to Slytherin, and seemed surprised and Disappointed when she didn't. I don't think he had planned it all his life, but he had planned it ever since they went to school and he first really learned about Death Eaters. By then he was already friends with Lily.

We do have canon that Lily did not know of any such activity. Otherwise, she would not have brought up the thing that was not quite done to Mary McDonald, she would have brought up something real.

Unless, of course, it only mattered to Lily when it was one of her friends. ;)
It could be that Lily was mentioning the most recent incident - it seems unlikely that she would bring up a previous incident if they had recently done something similar.

Snape not denying he was going to join Voldemort proves little, for two reasons. First, he was pretty inarticulate in that final conversation - he may not have denied it simply because he was trying to say something else. Something I imagine he probably rehearsed (as one might a very dificult apology or similar conversation) and then Lily left the script on him and made it difficult for him to get a complete sentence out.
Obviously this is only my interpretation, but I would assume that Lily had brought up the idea before, and Snape had never denied it.

Second, because in the opinion of Sirius Black, who has no reason I can see in this instance to lie, his brother Regulus (in a lower year than Snape, that is, later) joined the Death Eaters without knowing how far Voldemort was willing to go. If a Black, a scion of an old, Dark, Pureblood family, could make such a mistake of fact, it is far easier to imagine a Half-blood raised partly in the Muggle world would.
I agree that Snape could have been unaware of how far Voldemort was willing to go. However, I don't think it's fair to say that Snape was completely ignorant. He knew that Voldemort and the Death Eaters were for pureblood supremacy, and he must have know, to a certain extent, that they wished to eliminate Muggle-borns. If Lily meant all that much to him, I don't think he would have wanted to support that.

The difference between Regulus and Snape is Regulus realised what Voldemort was doing was actually wrong and he changed his morals. Snape only cared when Lily was targetted and would not have switched sides had she not been.
Excellent point :tu:. Even if Snape was not aware of how far Voldemort could go once he became a Death Eater, he still didn't appear to have a problem with it when other people were being killed. In addition, he, as far as we know, didn't have a problem with that was occurring the first three times Lily defied Voldemort.

yeah I guess you're right zgnirias
but i do think that lily was to blame more

no DeathlyH if he had planned it all his life he wouldn't have be-friended lily. and no it wasnt to seek revenge and all that


Lily was 100% responsible for ending the friendship, Snape didn't want it to end at all. In that sense it was her fault completely that the friendship ended because if it were up to Snape, they would have remained friends. But Lily had the good sense to understand that it had to end or she might find herself being the friend of a death eater.

Lily was 100% responsible for ending the friendship, Snape didn't want it to end at all. In that sense it was her fault completely that the friendship ended because if it were up to Snape, they would have remained friends. But Lily had the good sense to understand that it had to end or she might find herself being the friend of a death eater.
:agree:

Snape was to blame for not listening to Lily and ignoring her concerns about the path he was taking, and Lily was to blame for actually ending it. They are both to blame, but Snape was the only one who did something wrong, imo.

deathlyH snape is pretty smart. He knew that voldemort would not accept Lily no matter what she did. shes a muggle born. it can't happen.
i don't think he planned it at all

wickedwickedboy, yeah thats how i feel. i mean he made mistakes but he did make up for it. and also he would do anything fo her. he made mistakes and thats the only flaws he has.
Lily on the other hand is the one who prety much threw there friendship away

It’s good to see that option C has finally arrived in the discussion
It was starting to look like the only options were it was all Snape’s fault or it was all Lily’s fault; I believe in option C – both had a part in the the break down of the relationship my self. :whistle:

LooneyLovegood
Had Lily not been targetted, Snape never would have stopped being a Death Eater.

Sorry but never – really? Life throws us curve balls right left & center and never is a word that cannot honestly be used to predict future decision making. It is true that Lily being targeted was the reason Snape changed sides, but who’s to say this is the only thing that would ever have change his mind.

Lily was 100% responsible for ending the friendship, Snape didn't want it to end at all. In that sense it was her fault completely that the friendship ended because if it were up to Snape, they would have remained friends. But Lily had the good sense to understand that it had to end or she might find herself being the friend of a death eater.

:agree: Yup I agree with that. Snape was at fault for the friendship declining, Lily was at fault for ending it, IMO.

deathlyH snape is pretty smart. He knew that voldemort would not accept Lily no matter what she did. shes a muggle born. it can't happen.
Voldemort asked Lily if she would join him. She refused, defying him for the first time.

Lily on the other hand is the one who prety much threw there friendship away
What good could come for her if she'd continued the friendship? She made the smart choice, imo.


Sorry but never – really? Life throws us curve balls right left & center and never is a word that cannot honestly be used to predict future decision making. It is true that Lily being targeted was the reason Snape changed sides, but who’s to say this is the only thing that would ever have change his mind.
JKR said it.

nah i cant agree with all that
:lol: this is getting intense

It's very interesting to debate, nonetheless! :D

I'm surprised a mod hasn't intervened yet. :whistle:

u really think she shouldve ended it sooner?
ppl make mistakes u noe

The point in making mistakes is to learn from them. She told Snape that he was doing something wrong and he refused to listen. That is not her fault, that is his fault.

i think snape has barely done anything wrong tho

compared with lily

Barely done anything wrong? I respect your view, but I beg to differ. Snape was interested in the Dark Arts - the most malicious form of magic - and wanted to be a Death Eater. By wanting to be a Death Eater he was agreeing to torture and kill Muggleborns, Muggles and anyone that stood up against the atrocities Voldemort and the Death Eaters inflicted upon society. Lily and her family fall under the target. I cannot see how Snape is less to blame when the reason for the friendship falling apart is his refusal to listen to Lily.

It was not Lily's responsibility to be Snape's friend. Imo, leaving Snape was not a bad thing to do. She tried to change him for five years, she saw it was not only making no impact, but he was actually becoming worse as a person! Just because she did not want to associate with a future death eater, did not make her a bad person.

Snape was lucky Lily stubbornly stayed by his side for so long imo.

I'm in agreement with you. :agree: I would have ended the friendship earlier if I knew that someone was willing to join the most evil wizard of all time, the tyrant that found it necessary to kill and torture those like myself and my family. It's lucky that Lily was stubborn and believed the best of people, for if she was not like that, the friendship likely would have ended much earlier.

I worded it badly. I think Snape's need was greater than Harry's at that time.

I disagree since Harry had to find and destroy parts of Voldemort's soul, but I'm probably biased since I'm overly fond of Harry. :D

Lily on the other hand is the one who prety much threw there friendship away

Because Snape refused to listen to her.

Sorry but never – really? Life throws us curve balls right left & center and never is a word that cannot honestly be used to predict future decision making. It is true that Lily being targeted was the reason Snape changed sides, but who’s to say this is the only thing that would ever have change his mind.

I think the idea of this comes from JKR's comment in an interview that Snape wouldn't have redeemed himself if Voldemort never targeted Lily.

What good could come for her if she'd continued the friendship? She made the smart choice, imo.

Exactly. Snape really did want to be a Death Eater, and she didn't. She had already pleaded with him to stop hanging around with people like Mulciber and Avery, and he hadn't. So what was left in the friendship for her? Snape was taking a path she couldn't possibly follow, and that really couldn't allow them to be friends. It really was Snape's fault that Lily ended the friendship. She seemed to like him at first, before he started hanging around with the DEs.

beautifically i would have been interested in the dark arts
does that make me bad?
his intersets aren't what makes him bad.
and i can't agree... if i ahd a really goood friend i couldn't just leave them because of what they wanted. it'd take time and when the deed is full then i'd do something.

he didn't refuse to listen. when?

It could be that Lily was mentioning the most recent incident - it seems unlikely that she would bring up a previous incident if they had recently done something similar.

I am sorry. I do not see Lily as a person who would forgive or overlook people torturing Muggles. I could be wrong, of course!

It's not which incident was more recent, it is that they are of two completely different orders of magnitude. One (your hypothetical incident in which Snape's schoolaged friends tortured Muggles) is a serious crime carrying a life sentence for a number of reasons (use of Unforgivables, violation of Underage magic statutes, violation of Muggle Secrecy statutes, just to name three reasons). The other (the thing actually mentioned in canon) is (I presume, but even that is not in evidence) a particualrly unpleasant prank of some sort.

I agree that Snape could have been unaware of how far Voldemort was willing to go. However, I don't think it's fair to say that Snape was completely ignorant. He knew that Voldemort and the Death Eaters were for pureblood supremacy, and he must have know, to a certain extent, that they wished to eliminate Muggle-borns.

I agree with all but the last, if by eliminate you mean "kill".

Excellent point :tu:. Even if Snape was not aware of how far Voldemort could go once he became a Death Eater, he still didn't appear to have a problem with it when other people were being killed. In addition, he, as far as we know, didn't have a problem with that was occurring the first three times Lily defied Voldemort.

We have no canon that Lily's life was in immediate danger when she defied Voldemort. I have always taken things like "joining the Order" to be examples of defying Voldemort. (That's two out of three right there, taking James and Lily collectively.) If they had faced him in battle, I think they might have become the sort of people who would remember to have their wands about them when being sought after by him.

We also have no idea how Snape felt about people being killed in the first war, except to know that it was not to be sufficiently horrified to take his own life into his hands and approach Dumbledore, and betray every friend he still had.

he didn't refuse to listen. when?

During The Prince's Tale, Lily told him that she really doesn't like Avery, Mulciber,and the other Death Eaters he was hanging out with. If he had really cared about Lily more than anyone else, he would've listened to her and stopped associating with DEs. But he didn't, so Lily had to end their friendship.

so she expects him to give up on everyone for him? well she got her wish i mean he didnt say i don't like james, don't you dare narry him or anything abut her friends. there friends they don't own eachother.

wickedwickedboy, yeah thats how i feel. i mean he made mistakes but he did make up for it. and also he would do anything fo her. he made mistakes and thats the only flaws he has.
Lily on the other hand is the one who prety much threw there friendship away

Well I don't think we agree because I think she should have thrown the friendship away a lot sooner - but I respect your view if it differs. Snape was on the 'dark path' at the time and it was unhealthy for her to have a friendship with a young man like that.

Snape did turn his life around later, but by that time she was dead, their relationship was long over and he had new issues that would still keep her from befriending him, imo. So I am not sure how that could affect what we are speaking about. :)

so she expects him to give up on everyone for him? well she got her wish i mean he didnt say i don't like james, don't you dare narry him or anything abut her friends. there friends they don't own eachother.

Actually he does diss James. In TPT, the same scene where Lily says she doesn't like the people Snape's hanging around with, Snape calls James and arrogant toerag. So it goes both ways. And Lily really only didn't want him hanging around with the DEs because she knew that they would only be a bad influence on him, and she really didn't want him to be like them. All IMO. :)

wickedwickedboy- no it couldn't but do you honestly think that lily would choose snape over any of her other friends? at any point after getting used to hogwarts? no. shes not like that IMO

and deathlyH she didn't listen either. and he wasnt nor were any of the other slytherins DE at this time...so she had no evidence nor was it rihgt to make assumptions because snape couldve done that

no it couldn't but do you honestly think that lily would choose snape over any of her other friends? at any point after getting used to hogwarts? no. shes not like that IMO

It wasn't just Snape's friends though. They were all practicing dark arts and planning to join Voldemort. That is what Snape was going to do also. You don't feel she should have stayed friends with Snape considering he was planning to join Voldemort, do you?

his intersets aren't what makes him bad.

So making up spells like Sectumsempra isn't bad? So finding the Dark Arts interesting - which includes spells like the Unforgivables, making Horcruxes, making Inferi - isn't bad? :huh:

and i can't agree... if i ahd a really goood friend i couldn't just leave them because of what they wanted. it'd take time and when the deed is full then i'd do something.

Lily was making excuses for Snape for years. He wanted to be a Death Eater. He found using Dark Magic against others amusing. He used racial slurs against other people. All of those were reasons for Lily's decision to break the friendship.

Let's compare it to a situation that would be a bit more understandable. :) People make friends with others that are into drugs. A friend gets worried about it and tries to convince the person to stop. The person doesn't stop and the friend has no choice to end the friendship. That's the closest similarity I can make to the fallout between Snape and Lily. I hope it makes sense!

he didn't refuse to listen. when?

*grabs copy of DH*

We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging round with! I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev, he's creepy! D'you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?"

Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face.

"That was nothing," said Snape. "It was a laugh, that's all - "

"It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny - "

"What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?" demanded Snape. His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.

He ignores her there and instead tries to distract her by mentioning the Marauders, IMO.

Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape's step. . . .

Snape didn't even listen to Lily when she tried to convince him of his wrongdoing. So, yes, he did ignore her because a) he didn't even listen to her and b) he didn't take what she said seriously.

no it couldn't but do you honestly think that lily would choose snape over any of her other friends? at any point after getting used to hogwarts? no. shes not like that IMO

The difference is that Lily wasn't hanging around people that wanted to be Death Eaters.

guys i don't care how "great" lily was, she hurt snape, and she was ruined as a character for me when i read that about her. i mean just standing by till last minute as james disses sname? not cool mates... and hey ari ^_^

Why was she ruined as a character? I think she had good grounds for ending the friendship.

guys i don't care how "great" lily was, she hurt snape, and she was ruined as a character for me when i read that about her. i mean just standing by till last minute as james disses sname? not cool mates... and hey ari ^_^

How did Lily hurt Snape? Snape lost Lily's friendship because of his choices. She had every right to end the friendship with Snape, IMO. Snape was going down the wrong path, not Lily.

It wasn't just Snape's friends though. They were all practicing dark arts and planning to join Voldemort. That is what Snape was going to do also. You don't feel she should have stayed friends with Snape considering he was planning to join Voldemort, do you?
A friendship between a Slytherin and Gryffindor is hard enough, but I can't imagine a death eater and an order member arranging a time for tea together :lol:

It would have been impossible, imo, for Lily and Snape to be friends if Snape was a death eater and Lily was an order member. It was better Lily ended it early.

It wasn't just Snape's friends though. They were all practicing dark arts and planning to join Voldemort. That is what Snape was going to do also. You don't feel she should have stayed friends with Snape considering he was planning to join Voldemort, do you?

yes but it wasn't decided at this point. later on yes it happened but it doesn't actually say that i want to be a death eter wwhen i grow up.

and yes he made spells such as that but how do you know it didn't happen after lily left him? becuas it probably did because it is powerful magic and he ws probably in his last year.

i mean the REASN sname joined the DE was because he didn't feel like he belonged anywhere else. because his friend lily outgrew him. so if we think about it, who really betrayed whom?

Why was she ruined as a character? I think she had good grounds for ending the friendship.

yeah but the problem was, she started ending the friendship as soon as she made some new friends, so snape felt betrayed, so of course he ran off with the DE. im not saying he was faultless, but he wasn't the only one who made a mistake, lily was too.

i mean the REASN sname joined the DE was because he didn't feel like he belonged anywhere else. because his friend lily outgrew him. so if we think about it, who really betrayed whom?
He was interested the dark arts and becoming a death eater before Lily ended her friendship with him. He never denies wanting to become a death eater to Lily and the subject must have been brought up quite a few times.

How did Lily betray him? She was very clear with her thoughts and opinions. It was Snape who refused to listen to her and caused her to end the friendship.

she started ending the friendship as soon as she made some new friends, so snape felt betrayed, so of course he ran off with the DE.
Could you please provide canon proof for this statement?

I am sorry. I do not see Lily as a person who would forgive or overlook people torturing Muggles. I could be wrong, of course!

It's not which incident was more recent, it is that they are of two completely different orders of magnitude. One (your hypothetical incident in which Snape's schoolaged friends tortured Muggles) is a serious crime carrying a life sentence for a number of reasons (use of Unforgivables, violation of Underage magic statutes, violation of Muggle Secrecy statutes, just to name three reasons). The other (the thing actually mentioned in canon) is (I presume, but even that is not in evidence) a particualrly unpleasant prank of some sort.
I wasn't implying that they tortured Muggles. I was just saying that we really don't know how far they took their "pranks" that occurred at Hogwarts. There could have been other pranks that were more unpleasant that what happened with Mary. Also, we don't even know what the incidenct with Mary was. Obviously Snape would try to pass it off as a harmless joke; what was he supposed to say to her? Even if it was just a prank, it was still dark magic. Originally, when I said that we have no canon that they didn't do anything "particularly awful", I was replying to a post that compared them being mean to the things James did. All I was trying to say was that they did dark magic, which is something Lily obviously didn't approve of (and, in my opinion, had every right to have a problem with).

I agree with all but the last, if by eliminate you mean "kill".
Well, that is what Voldemort wanted, but obviously we don't have canon as to whether Snape was aware of that when he became a Death Eater. In whatever way you take the word "eliminate" to mean, I would think Snape was aware that they treated people of Lily's heritage terribly.

We have no canon that Lily's life was in immediate danger when she defied Voldemort. I have always taken things like "joining the Order" to be examples of defying Voldemort. (That's two out of three right there, taking James and Lily collectively.) If they had faced him in battle, I think they might have become the sort of people who would remember to have their wands about them when being sought after by him.
Whether Lily's life was in immediately danger or not, Snape was supporting a cause that, in one way or another, put Lily's life in danger

We also have no idea how Snape felt about people being killed in the first war, except to know that it was not to be sufficiently horrified to take his own life into his hands and approach Dumbledore, and betray every friend he still had.
As this focuses on Snape, as opposed to Snape and Lily, I'll refrain from responding to this here.

yes but it wasn't decided at this point. later on yes it happened but it doesn't actually say that i want to be a death eter wwhen i grow up.

The fact that he actually wanted to be a Death Eater speaks volumes for me, personally.

and yes he made spells such as that but how do you know it didn't happen after lily left him? becuas it probably did because it is powerful magic and he ws probably in his last year.

Well, Snape was already inventing spells before the friendship fell apart. Levicorpus, according to Remus, spread like a wildfire. And Sectumsempra was invented, too, because he used that against James in SWM.

i mean the REASN sname joined the DE was because he didn't feel like he belonged anywhere else. because his friend lily outgrew him. so if we think about it, who really betrayed whom?

Snape chose to be a Death Eater because of his own insecurities. How is Lily to blame? And what canon supports the claim that Lily "outgrew him"? Could you please provide canon? It'd make it easier to debate.

And it's not as if she forced him to be a Death Eater - he made that choice himself. The only perosn to blame for the outcome of Snape's choices is Snape himself.

yeah but the problem was, she started ending the friendship as soon as she made some new friends, so snape felt betrayed, so of course he ran off with the DE. im not saying he was faultless, but he wasn't the only one who made a mistake, lily was too.

Lily didn't end the friendship as soon as she made friends, she ended the friendship when Snape had gone too far in his involvement with things she detested. And Lily was not Snape's babysitter - she wasn't going to be around him every second! She formed other friendships and had every right to, IMO.

beautifically, yes it spread. meaning james used it. so its not all that dark right?
and it was mentioned before that sirius had a bad life like snape and he did't become a death eater, if he lost the love of his life and friend, he would too. and if he was in slytherin because do u think james woujd be his friend then? it couldve ended differently. lily is to blame for what happened (partly)

beautifically, yes it spread. meaning james used it. so its not all that dark right?

I'm not saying Levicorpus is dark. I was just pointing out that Snape invented spells before Lily broke off the friendship.

And I'm going to reply to the rest of your post shortly in the Sirius thread. :)

beautifically, yes it spread. meaning james used it. so its not all that dark right?
Levicorpus wasn't dark, but Sectumsempra was, and Snape used it against James in SWM. So he must have invented it while still friends with Lily.

and it was mentioned before that sirius had a bad life like snape and he did't become a death eater, if he lost the love of his life and friend, he would too. and if he was in slytherin because do u think james woujd be his friend then? it couldve ended differently. lily is to blame for what happened (partly)
Sirius lost James, Lily, his family - everyone. Yet did he join the death eaters when Voldemort rose to power again? No, he joined the order.

Snape would have become a death eater even if Lily hadn't broken off the friendship - he thought it would impress her and no amount of concern Lily showed for this decision had changed his mind.

Alright, it's time for Timmy the tension-easing puppy to make an appearance:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/ShiranianPuppy1205thru0206024.JPG

Timmy likes everyone to respect each other's opinions and to be nice :).

Also, let's cut down a bit on the chattiness and make sure both Snape and Lily are the focus. Thanks!

:lol: how cute :lol:
okay sorry :D

okay bauethyfically

and it doesn't matter that he invented spells, thats brains not bad stuff.

I feel some of you are being harsh on Snape and others on Lily.

Snape: He never grew up, even as an adult Snape acted like a kid. And as a kid Snape wanted to feel...wanted, he wanted to feel accepted. And the friends he got were future-DEs due to his house and his interest. Think of it from his P.o.V., and noone likes to think of their friends as the bad-guys, he was trying to get Lily, and maintain his friendship with the bad guys, he never realized that in the end, he would have to choose, until Lily made the decision for him. Perhaps, he saw Lily leaving him as a betrayal? Who knows that could have been the turning point in his life? Lily could have, maybe, changed him or influenced his decision to be a DE? But leaving him left Snape with no choice.

Lily: In her view, she did all she could. And she is justified in her view as well, how long will she wait for Snape? Who knows when he would change. Snape was friends with the bad guys, he was into dark magic, perhaps to Lily - he was a lost cause. Maybe Lily thought, there ways were parted already. She was a Gryffindor, and he was a Slytherin: and maybe it was meant to be that way. She walked away when she believed that Snape had crossed the line. And rightfully so, he had verbally abused her in public, and that just proved to her that Snape had chosen his friends over her.

Timmy is the single cutest thing I've ever seen in my life. :D.

and it doesn't matter that he invented spells, thats brains not bad stuff.
I respect your opinion, but I don't think it's okay to invent a spell like that. That spell is extremely dangerous; in HBP, had Snape not come immediately, Draco probably would have died. It is also the spell that took George's ear off. Plus, Snape did more than just invent it - he used it on James. I understand that he was capable of controlling the spell, and making sure it didn't do very much damage, but accidents happen, and it wouldn't have been that difficult for him to do a lot of damage on James with it (even if he didn't mean to).

but snape never did choose anyone over lily

So cute! :love:


and it doesn't matter that he invented spells, thats brains not bad stuff.
Using your intelligence for bad things is "bad stuff", imo. Voldemort was incrediably smart and he used his intelligence to try to wipe out muggles. That qualifies as "bad" imo. Lily was smart too, but she used her smarts for good.

I wonder to what extent did Lily know about the spells Snape was creating, such as Sectumsempra. She saw him use it on James in SWM, but I have a feeling that it was rather new to Snape at the time, since he only caused one cut on the cheek (unless the spell can't just graze - where it would be Snape's aim that was the problem).

but snape never did choose anyone over lily

:huh: You mean besides the Death Eaters? Basically he had a choice to either be a good person, and still have Lily as a friend, or take the bad path and lose Lily. It's not like he thought that Lily would be a DE. It was clear she wouldn't after she told Snape her views on Avery and such. So he went with the death Eaters, choosing them over Lily.

but snape never did choose anyone over lily

Yes, he did - if he wanted to be with Lily, then he would have left his friends. And not sacrificing his friends who were evil - made all the difference to Lily. To her it seemed like he had made his choice with calling her a 'mudblood'.

*LinnendeBlack's Sirius-sense is tingling*

I think Sirius has little to do with this thread. Sirius would never have joined the DE's if he lost the love of his life. The DE's are everything that Sirius is against, which is why he rebelled against his whole family in the first place.

Aww, how adorable! :love:

but snape never did choose anyone over lily

Actually, he did, IMO. He chose to continue to be friends with the Death Eaters and reject Lily's insistence that he Dark Arts and Voldemort were evil.

*LinnendeBlack's Sirius-sense is tingling*

:lol: That made me laugh out loud.

Anyway, it was me who brought Sirius into the thread. I wasn't trying to say Sirius was a better person than Snape or anything (I am not willing to get into the Sirius and James vs. Snape war :scared:), I was just trying to show that a person's background is never an excuse for joining Death Eaters. Sirius didn't join them and Harry didn't, and both of them had poor childhoods.

but snape never did choose anyone over lily

No, he was not the one who made the choice to end the friendship. However, he knew how Lily felt about the Dark Arts. Lily had discussed her opinions with him multiple times, and he ignored her. He didn't seem to care very much how she felt about what he was doing. As Lily said, he chose his path and she chose hers. Had he chosen not to get involved in the Dark Arts, he could have continued to be friends with Lily, so he ultimately chose his Slytherin friends and the Dark Arts over his friendship with her.

but snape never did choose anyone over lily

Lily made it very clear imo that she did not want to associate herself with death eaters. Snape chose to ignore this and continue on the dark path, therefore choosing his death eater friends over Lily.

deathlyH: he wasn't a death eater back then so that's not saying anything.

deliciousMoon i was just talking about the spell james used aswell. the rest lie theone that cut georges ear and the one that nearly killed draco, was probably invented after

Why was she ruined as a character? I think she had good grounds for ending the friendship.

She did not look her best in Snape's worst memory, that's for sure! She did not so much as address her "best friend" until just before she stormed off.

the rest lie theone that cut georges ear and the one that nearly killed draco, was probably invented after
That spell is Sectumsempra, and Snape uses it during Snape's Worst Memory. Therefore, we know it wasn't invented after.

deathlyH: he wasn't a death eater back then so that's not saying anything.

:rolleyes: He wasn't technicaly a Death Eater, but he chose to hang with the people who went on to be Death Eaters instead of Lily. And he did become a Death Eater because he chose them over Lily. So it's really the same thing.

Whether Lily's life was in immediately danger or not, Snape was supporting a cause that, in one way or another, put Lily's life in danger.

It also put him in a position to know when her life was actually in danger.

Like I said, Lily had reached her breaking point, but friends never give up - I still think she could have influenced his decision a lot but going off with James probably made Snape more bitter. But she couldn't wait around for forever. Both of them deserve the blame, no one is better than the other.

That spell is Sectumsempra, and Snape uses it during Snape's Worst Memory. Therefore, we know it wasn't invented after.

Actually, Snape cast a nonverbal spell, so we cannot be sure it was Sectumsempra. It certainly had a less impressive effect than the uses of it we have seen since.

It also put him in a position to know when her life was actually in danger.

Yes, and that certainly ended up being convenient. However, I still don't think that takes away the fact that he was supporting the person who killed her (obviously this was only true up until he killed her, but he knew that Lily was in danger before then).

Like I said, Lily had reached her breaking point, but friends never give up - I still think she could have influenced his decision a lot but going off with James probably made Snape more bitter. But she couldn't wait around for forever. Both of them deserve the blame, no one is better than the other.

That's how I see it too.

On Lily's side, I just have a bad gut reaction to the break up scene. Sure, I can see why she broke up, but I think she owed it to Snape and to herself to let him say his piece without interruption, and in full, before leaving.

She did not look her best in Snape's worst memory, that's for sure! She did not so much as address her "best friend" until just before she stormed off.

Actually she did. Lily said: "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." But she remained a while after that. I don't recall her saying anything more before she eventually sotrmed off (after yelling at James). It was Snape who never addressed his 'best friend' and defender during that conversation. It was James he was speaking to when he said he didn't need 'any help from dirty little mudbloods like her (Lily).'

:lol: That made me laugh out loud.

Anyway, it was me who brought Sirius into the thread. I wasn't trying to say Sirius was a better person than Snape or anything (I am not willing to get into the Sirius and James vs. Snape war :scared:), I was just trying to show that a person's background is never an excuse for joining Death Eaters. Sirius didn't join them and Harry didn't, and both of them had poor childhoods.

:lol: Thanks.

Agreed. :tu: The whole HP series is really about choices as JK points out numerous times; highlighting that it doesn't matter what you're background/past is or whatever, but the choices that you make. Snape obviously made a bad choice joining the DE's because it was that which eventually lost him Lily.

Actually she did. Lily said: "Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus."

IMO, that was pretty much her way of saying to him, "Well, you've had your warnings, so if you're going to be like that I won't even bother with you anymore."

Yes, and that certainly ended up being convenient. However, I still don't think that takes away the fact that he was supporting the person who killed her (obviously this was only true up until he killed her, but he knew that Lily was in danger before then).

If Snape knew all you say, about Voldemort killing Muggleborns, he must have believed she would be an exception when he was in school. I don't see his being a Death Eater as evidence he did not care whether she lived or died.

The way I see this working, is he may have believed that he could use his infludence to protect her. We do not hear of Snape's friends ever trying to pick on Lily, for example. She would seem an obvious target, if their attacks are racially motivated.

There is something I'd like to clear up

When the break-up happened, Snape never chose anything. To Lily, it seemed that Snape had chosen his friends (and rightfully so) but I don't think Snape ever chose any side until after the break-up, when he had no choice left. So in a way, Lily made a decision for Snape, sure - his actions may have drove her to do that but ultimately Lily's departure left Snape with only 1 path.

There is something I'd like to clear up

When the break-up happened, Snape never chose anything. To Lily, it seemed that Snape had chosen his friends (and rightfully so) but I don't think Snape ever chose any side until after the break-up, when he had no choice left. So in a way, Lily made a decision for Snape, sure - his actions may have drove her to do that but ultimately Lily's departure left Snape with only 1 path.

Agreed, but it was Snape's fault that Lily had left him with only one path, IMO.

I really don't get why Snape tearing the photo bothers people. He wanted a picture of Lily to comfort him during the Dark days ahead - what's wrong with that? He loathed the other two people in the picture so he removed them - it's a picture! Whatever symbolism anyone sees in it, Snape did not attempt to split the Potter family up. He may have wanted to but he didn't. The fact remains that he would rather Lily was alive and with James and Harry than dead.


Great point. That is exactly the way I see it. According to JKR: "Snape got into Grimmauld Place immediately after Dumbledore's death, before Moody put up the spells against him". As you mentioned, I think that Snape was so distraught after killing Dumbledore, a man he obviously respected/cared for, that he needed moral support/comfort from one of the only other people he ever loved, Lily. I never once thought that this action symbolically indicated that Snape wanted to breakup the Potter family.
I only read DH once, but didn't Snape find the picture and letter in Sirius Black's bedroom? If Sirius had the picture and the letter, why didn't he share these items with Harry? It seemed that Harry had no idea that the letter/picture even existed up until the time he actually found them. If this is the case, I am surprised and disappointed that Sirius did not attempt to share these things with Harry.

Originally posted by DeliciousMoon:"The difference between Regulus and Snape is Regulus realized what Voldemort was doing was actually wrong and he changed his morals. Snape only cared when Lily was targeted and would not have switched sides had she not been."

I respect your view, but disagree with this particular observation. Regulus, like Snape, only initially went against Voldemort for personal reasons. Regulus did realize that Voldemort was wrong and changed his morals, but only after Kreacher told him exactly what happened and/or the cruelty that Kreacher experienced at the hands of Voldemort. Regulus loved Kreacher, so he obviously was disturbed by what Voldemort was capable of doing to someone that he (Regulus) loved. If this had not happened to Kreacher, I am not sure that Regulus would have fought against Voldemort.

If Snape knew all you say, about Voldemort killing Muggleborns, he must have believed she would be an exception when he was in school. I don't see his being a Death Eater as evidence he did not care whether she lived or died.

The way I see this working, is he may have believed that he could use his infludence to protect her. We do not hear of Snape's friends ever trying to pick on Lily, for example. She would seem an obvious target, if their attacks are racially motivated.

Are we talking about while they were in school now? I was referring to Snape supporting Voldemort, the person who ended up killing Lily. Sorry, I tried to go back and see what we had been talking about, but I got confused about exactly what point in time we were discussing.

I don't see how he could not have realized that she was put in danger by Voldemort and the DEs. She was a Muggle-born, she had always been opposed to the Dark Arts, and she ended up being an order member. He may have had influence over his friends in school, but when it came to Voldemort, he clearly didn't. He knew that he wasn't enough to protect Lily from Voldemort - otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to Dumbledore, and would have trusted Voldemort to not kill Lily when he asked her not to.

Agreed, but it was Snape's fault that Lily had left him with only one path, IMO.

Yes, I agree too. But the fact remains: that she made the decision, not him. Perhaps with time, he would have chosen her? Who knows what could have happened? See what I mean, he is not the only one to blame. Afterall, true friends never give up right? ;)

Yes, I agree too. But the fact remains: that she made the decision, not him. Perhaps with time, he would have chosen her? Who knows what could have happened? See what I mean, he is not the only one to blame. Afterall, true friends never give up right? ;)

But she wouldn't have wanted to keep being his friend after all that had happened. He had made it clear that he wanted to be a Death Eater, and Lily really didn't want to. I don't think she had any other choice but to end their relationship. It wasn't right for her anymore.

But she wouldn't have wanted to keep being his friend after all that had happened. He had made it clear that he wanted to be a Death Eater, and Lily really didn't want to. I don't think she had any other choice but to end their relationship. It wasn't right for her anymore.

Saying and doing are two different things, he wasn't a Death Eater back then, she could have, no she did influence his decision - she left him which then caused him to choose. I am not saying Lily's reasons aren't good enough because like I said before, to her - Snape was a lost a cause. But in reality he wasn't but as soon as she left him, she made the decision for him.

Afterall, true friends never give up right? ;)

First, hi! I haven't seen you around for a while. :)

Anyway, I disagree. In real life people have to give up on a friendship at some point. People - such as myself - have gotten into unhealthy friendships and have come to the conclusion that they are better left not being friends at all. This happens in romantic relationships, too.

Snape was becoming a person that Lily didn't know anymore, and I think she had every right to give up the friendship.

Saying and doing are two different things, he wasn't a Death Eater back then, she could have, no she did influence his decision - she left him which then caused him to choose. I am not saying Lily's reasons aren't good enough because like I said before, to her - Snape was a lost a cause. But in reality he wasn't but as soon as she left him, she made the decision for him.

But it sure looked to Lily as if he would become a Death Eater after that. She didn't want to take a risk. I think it's more of the fact that he was acting like a Death Eater that did it- using Dark spells on people, hanging around with Death Eaters, his knowledge for the dark Arts... He wasn't someone that Lily wanted to hang around with anymore. She could have stayed, but I don't know how much that would have influenced him- you're right, Snape was always a lost cause.

First, hi! I haven't seen you around for a while. :)

Anyway, I disagree. In real life people have to give up on a friendship at some point. People - such as myself - have gotten into unhealthy friendships and have come to the conclusion that they are better left not being friends at all. This happens in romantic relationships, too.

Snape was becoming a person that Lily didn't know anymore, and I think she had every right to give up the friendship.

:agree: I agree. There comes a point where you must tell the difference between being a good person and trying to get your friend back, and doing the right thing. SWM was that point for Lily, and she did the right thing. :D

First, hi! I haven't seen you around for a while. :)

Anyway, I disagree. In real life people have to give up on a friendship at some point. People - such as myself - have gotten into unhealthy friendships and have come to the conclusion that they are better left not being friends at all. This happens in romantic relationships, too.

Snape was becoming a person that Lily didn't know anymore, and I think she had every right to give up the friendship.

Oh hey! Lots of Twilight thread people here I see :D

See that's the Lily side - she saw it as an unhealthy friendship. She saw him as a friend not worth it. And Snape's personality change probably led her to believe that but...

Snape never reached that conclusion in his life about Lily. So when Lily left him, he saw it as a betrayal. Even his best-friend had abandoned him, he had received love from no one and the one that he loved - didn't love him anymore. Of course, later Snape realizes that it was him who drove her to that point, but at that point in time, the only choice that she left him was to be a DE, if he ever were to feel accepted.

Snape never reached that conclusion in his life about Lily. So when Lily left him, he saw it as a betrayal. Even his best-friend had abandoned him, he had received love from no one and the one that he loved - didn't love him anymore. Of course, later Snape realizes that it was him who drove her to that point, but at that point in time, the only choice that she left him was to be a DE, if he ever were to feel accepted.

Well, then I would see it as Snape's failt- he was too blinded by how he felt about Lily to see that she didn't like what he was doing at all. Remember in TPT, it said something along the lines of: "But Snape didn't seem to have heard her views on Avery and Mulciber, he perked up as soon as she mentioned Potter's name." So he doesn't get that Lily doesn't want him to become a Death Eater- whose fault is that?

But it sure looked to Lily as if he would become a Death Eater after that. She didn't want to take a risk. I think it's more of the fact that he was acting like a Death Eater that did it- using Dark spells on people, hanging around with Death Eaters, his knowledge for the dark Arts... He wasn't someone that Lily wanted to hang around with anymore. She could have stayed, but I don't know how much that would have influenced him- you're right, Snape was always a lost cause.

Yeah, but the only one that Snape used those spells against was James, and no one innocent. James picked on Snape because he existed - that's not saintly is it? Snape only defended himself - but yes he used dark magic to do it. Hanging around with DEs hmm? No offense but James' friends could easily be considered dodgy as well.

Sirius - descended from none other than the Black family - that takes pride in supporting Voldemort

Remus - a werewolf, known to be LV supporters

Peter - A death eater, from the beginning he showed signs of being power-hungry and cowardly.

Need I say more? Yes they all seemed good and innocent back then, but people still believed that Sirius betrayed James didn't they (even though he never did)? No one ever wants to believe that there friends are bad. Just because they weren't openly claiming to be DEs like the Slytherin lot doesn't mean that there was no possibility.

Snape was never a lost cause, he only seemed like one to Lily.

Well, then I would see it as Snape's failt- he was too blinded by how he felt about Lily to see that she didn't like what he was doing at all. Remember in TPT, it said something along the lines of: "But Snape didn't seem to have heard her views on Avery and Mulciber, he perked up as soon as she mentioned Potter's name." So he doesn't get that Lily doesn't want him to become a Death Eater- whose fault is that?

He was a kid! And he was desperate for affection - And like I said no one likes to listen about their friends being insulted - no matter how bad they are. He wanted to maintain both - friendship and love but Lily felt she couldn't go on - she was tired of waiting for him and she chose to not listen to his side of the story and walk away - looks like they both had a little communication problem that they never dealt with.

Yeah, but the only one that Snape used those spells against was James, and no one innocent. James picked on Snape because he existed - that's not saintly is it? Snape only defended himself - but yes he used dark magic to do it. Hanging around with DEs hmm? No offense but James' friends could easily be considered dodgy as well.

Sirius - descended from none other than the Black family - that takes pride in supporting Voldemort

Remus - a werewolf, known to be LV supporters

Peter - A death eater, from the beginning he showed signs of being power-hungry and cowardly.

Need I say more?

I would say yes you do, only because Lily lived with these guys so she knew Sirius was sincerely against all things dark arts and she didn't know that Remus was a werewolf - she may have suspected, but even then she defended him, so I would say that she liked him as a person. She defended the Marauders when Snape tried to divert their conversation onto them and later declared that the difference between them and Snape's friends was that they used light magic while Snape and his friends used dark magic. That was Lily's point of view, right or wrong. More importantly, Lily wasn't even friends with them, so from Lily's point of view, your reasoning doesn't stand up - just as it didn't stand up when Snape brought up the topic. Lily responded, 'what does Potter have to do with anything?'

The bottom line was, for Lily, the topic was Snape and his actions, beliefs and behavior. She wasn't into the dark arts and didn't want a friend who was into it either. One does reserve the right to pick their friends. If a relationship is unhealthy, it is best ended as quickly as possible.

He was a kid! And he was desperate for affection - And like I said no one likes to listen about their friends being insulted - no matter how bad they are. He wanted to maintain both - friendship and love but Lily felt she couldn't go on - she was tired of waiting for him and she chose to not listen to his side of the story and walk away - looks like they both had a little communication problem that they never dealt with.

He was 15, still a child, but old enough to know right from wrong. I personally would not judge him, but his peers would and certainly his 'best friend'. Lily already knew Snape's side of the story.

He was friends with his dark arts buddies, Mulciber and Avery - check
He was into the dark arts - check
He was using dark arts curses - check
He considered dark arts pranking a laugh - check
His friends were planning to join Voldemort - check

The only thing Lily didn't confirm was that Snape himself was going to actually join up - but his inarticulation was enough for her to go on. But even without that, he was confirmed by her to be mired in the world of dark arts, so it really didn't matter.

Further, Snape may have been tongue tied in that moment, but if Lily had it all wrong and he really wanted to be friends with her over continuing down the dark path, there was nothing stopping him from speaking to her or writing her a note during the next two years. Based on Lily's character, if Snape had said "you were right...can we talk?' Lily would have listened to him. So he chose his way and she chose hers. She should have done it much sooner, but she was trying to be a good friend. I will admit that if she had done it years before (when her friends first warned her) it may have affected Snape distinctly - perhaps he would have chosen the right road back then, but apparently Lily decided to keep trying herself.

I would say yes you do, only because Lily lived with these guys so she knew Sirius was sincerely against all things dark arts and she didn't know that Remus was a werewolf - she may have suspected, but even then she defended him, so I would say that she liked him as a person. She defended the Marauders when Snape tried to divert their conversation onto them and later declared that the difference between them and Snape's friends was that they used light magic while Snape and his friends used dark magic. That was Lily's point of view, right or wrong. More importantly, Lily wasn't even friends with them, so from Lily's point of view, your reasoning doesn't stand up - just as it didn't stand up when Snape brought up the topic. Lily responded, 'what does Potter have to do with anything?'
The maximum interaction between Lily and Marauders had to be through Remus, because Sirius and Lily weren't quite best friends, and James and Lily weren't exactly the best of friends. And yes, she did like Remus and it is unknown how much she knew about him.

It's not the type of magic that's used, it's how it is used. James used light magic to pick on Snape aka wrong reasons. He is just as dirty as Snape, just because he used certain type of magic doesn't mean that he is more justified than Snape.

No I never described them from Lily's point of view, but I said that if someone were to observe James' friends - they would notice that all of them also had tendencies (granted for remus they would have to know that he is a werewolf), they just weren't that obvious as Snapes' friends because they weren't so open about it and they were Gryffindors.

The bottom line was, for Lily, the topic was Snape and his actions, beliefs and behavior. She wasn't into the dark arts and didn't want a friend who was into it either. One does reserve the right to pick their friends. If a relationship is unhealthy, it is best ended as quickly as possible.

You said it yourself, it was for Lily. Yes one does have the right, and Lily did. She picked Snape, of course though once she deemed the relationship unhealthy she dropped him too.


He was 15, still a child, but old enough to know right from wrong. I personally would not judge him, but his peers would and certainly his 'best friend'. Lily already knew Snape's side of the story.

He was friends with his dark arts buddies, Mulciber and Avery - check
He was into the dark arts - check
He was using dark arts curses - check
He considered dark arts pranking a laugh - check
His friends were planning to join Voldemort - check

Aren't you not suppose to judge your friends?

He was friends with them because hardly anyone in Slytherin is not into dark arts. And the only other friend he had was Lily
Many people are into dark arts but not all of them end up as DEs. Just because I may like biology doesn't mean I will end up as a doctor.
Yes, but the only time we were shown was when he was defending himself against James
Yes he did consider that, Sirius considered putting Snape's life into jeopardy a laugh
His friends - yes but it doesn't mean he was, face it - Lily believed in Slytherin stereotypes - she left him because she assumed that Snape was going to do become a DE. She was judgmental - but then she was 15 too, can't expect her to be all mature either when Snape wasn't.

The only thing Lily didn't confirm was that Snape himself was going to actually join up - but his inarticulation was enough for her to go on. But even without that, he was confirmed by her to be mired in the world of dark arts, so it really didn't matter.

Oh but it did - assumption certainly didn't help - did it? Perhaps if she hadn't assumed so much there wouldn't be a lack of communication and they could have had a healthy relationship

Further, Snape may have been tongue tied in that moment, but if Lily had it all wrong and he really wanted to be friends with her over continuing down the dark path, there was nothing stopping him from speaking to her or writing her a note during the next two years. Based on Lily's character, if Snape had said "you were right...can we talk?' Lily would have listened to him. So he chose his way and she chose hers. She should have done it much sooner, but she was trying to be a good friend. I will admit that if she had done it years before (when her friends first warned her) it may have affected Snape distinctly - perhaps he would have chosen the right road back then, but apparently Lily decided to keep trying herself.

Yes but perspective changes, in the heat of the moment - Snape was willing to do anything to maintain his friendship with Lily, but the lack of communication led to misunderstanding. Yes there was nothing stopping him, except for the constant feeling of abandonment, who was to say Lily would reply to him two years later? It isn't as simple as it sounds. There is no guarantee Lily would have listened to him, she also comes off as a fiery character, and in the heat of the moment she didn't want to listen to him. And if Lily really wanted to know the reason she could have easily asked Snape too, she didn't bother - which meant she didn't wanna listen to his explanation.

If she had done it sooner, she would have been just another gryffindor to Snape. The fact that she stuck by him, caused his feelings to intensify towards her, and caused a change later in his life when he truly realized the mistake on his part. Who know maybe Snape could have changed sooner if Lily had stuck by him after SWM?

Yes but perspective changes, in the heat of the moment - Snape was willing to do anything to maintain his friendship with Lily, but the lack of communication led to misunderstanding. Yes there was nothing stopping him, except for the constant feeling of abandonment, who was to say Lily would reply to him two years later? It isn't as simple as it sounds. There is no guarantee Lily would have listened to him, she also comes off as a fiery character, and in the heat of the moment she didn't want to listen to him. And if Lily really wanted to know the reason she could have easily asked Snape too, she didn't bother - which meant she didn't wanna listen to his explanation.

I totally agree, and would like to add an observation.

We do not have canon that Snape never tried again. If Lily turned him away again, once, or several times, why would Snape, with seconds left to live, waste precious time adding all those memories for Harry, when they add no new information?

Personally, I believe he would have tried at least one more time, mere days later, when they both returned home for the summer. Though of course we will never know. :D

Like I said, Lily had reached her breaking point, but friends never give up - I still think she could have influenced his decision a lot but going off with James probably made Snape more bitter. But she couldn't wait around for forever. Both of them deserve the blame, no one is better than the other.

Both of them deserve the blame? Why are we playing the blame game? If Lily wanted to break off the friendship, she had every right to and I don't think anyone has a right to judge her for it. Lily had no responsibility to Snape and his decisions. If Lily was sick of him, who's right is it to make her stay friends with him? No one, not even Snape's. I don't think it was right to blame Lily for breaking off the friendship because she thought it was the right thing. Hell, even though I don't agree with Snape turning to his Death Eater friends because I think it wrong, I'm not going to blame Snape. It's his life, he can do whatever he wants with it, even though I personally don't think it is a good path. What I'll say is, even though Snape had complete control over his decisions, he should have realized they have consequences, and losing Lily was a real possibility.

ok...sorry to intrude ...i dont usually post in here but here are my thoughts...
on Lily´s side i do think she tried to stay friendly to him,but probably whenever james spotted them together he did something to interrupt their conversation or something...since we saw that glimpse of the train is what i feel sould have been going on...plus they ended up in different houses,so their free time was not the same...

on Snape´s side i think the ideology of the slytherin house must have had infected a bit Snape and even though he wanted not to use the vocabulary they used he did got the hang of it ...there is a saying in spanish that translates this way ..."tell me who your friends are and i will tell you who you are"

meaning we usually seek the company of those who think like us...so seeing this company Snape had selected threw some light on the dark side of Snape something Lily would never aprove...and even though we have seen he did ditch it all for her...she would have never known this due to the fact that she did cut all her relationship with him and never gave him the chance to prove to her that for her he would do anything...then james got in the way...and well...we know the story...

The maximum interaction between Lily and Marauders had to be through Remus, because Sirius and Lily weren't quite best friends, and James and Lily weren't exactly the best of friends. And yes, she did like Remus and it is unknown how much she knew about him.

It's not the type of magic that's used, it's how it is used. James used light magic to pick on Snape aka wrong reasons. He is just as dirty as Snape, just because he used certain type of magic doesn't mean that he is more justified than Snape.

No I never described them from Lily's point of view, but I said that if someone were to observe James' friends - they would notice that all of them also had tendencies (granted for remus they would have to know that he is a werewolf), they just weren't that obvious as Snapes' friends because they weren't so open about it and they were Gryffindors.

Right, I am not judging any of these kids myself. I was only speaking from Lily's point of view and how she saw it. That was what she based her actions on (not my point of view :lol:). So for her, dark magic was worse and that was an important factor for her. All of the things she complained to Snape about had to do with his dark arts friends, acts, Voldemort, etc.

You said it yourself, it was for Lily. Yes one does have the right, and Lily did. She picked Snape, of course though once she deemed the relationship unhealthy she dropped him too.

What do you mean she picked him? Unless I am mistaken, Snape was watching Lily and approached her because he figured out she was a wizard. But I agree, she dropped him, but I feel it was sometime after she knew the relationship was unhealthy. Lily had been making excuses to her friends for years - which means Snape was doing something that made them question her and made her feel that she had to seek excuses for him (not defenses mind you). So it seems she knew, she just didn't wish to give up quickly.

Aren't you not suppose to judge your friends?

I would respectfully disagree. I think it is very important to judge your friends. That is the only way you can help them and later ascertain when they are beyond help and it is time to end the friendship.

He was friends with them because hardly anyone in Slytherin is not into dark arts. And the only other friend he had was Lily. Many people are into dark arts but not all of them end up as DEs. Just because I may like biology doesn't mean I will end up as a doctor.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. While Snape didn't have to end up a Death Eater, she asked him if he was going to join and he didn't answer her. He had two years to provide an answer, but he never did...until he actually joined up, I suppose that is one way of answering. :)

Yes, but the only time we were shown was when he was defending himself against James

He created the curse "for enemies" and it became his specialty. I personally feel that means he used it quite often. Snape was not against the dark arts, he loved them.

Yes he did consider that, Sirius considered putting Snape's life into jeopardy a laugh

Sirius is not the standard by which Lily judged wizard kind. Snape finding the dark arts pranking funny is what bothered Lily. Why would she think about Sirius? Voldemort probably thought even worse things were funny, but that too would have nothing to do with Snape.

His friends - yes but it doesn't mean he was, face it - Lily believed in Slytherin stereotypes - she left him because she assumed that Snape was going to do become a DE. She was judgmental - but then she was 15 too, can't expect her to be all mature either when Snape wasn't.

I am afraid I cannot face that as a fact. There is nothing in canon to suggest that Lily stereotyped Snape. I am not sure what you are basing that on. She was his friend for many years which she would not have been (as a Gryffindor) if she was stereotyping him. Snape didn't need to be stereotyped, Snape actively showed his interest in the dark arts, created and used curses, laughed at dark arts pranking, and hung out with others who shared his interest. Snape was living proof of what he was, there was nothing for Lily to guess at. But I respect your view if you see it that way.

Oh but it did - assumption certainly didn't help - did it? Perhaps if she hadn't assumed so much there wouldn't be a lack of communication and they could have had a healthy relationship

Only in terms of Snape joining up with Voldemort. But that was just the proverbial icing on the cake. The other multitude of reasons I provided were more than enough for Lily to determine where Snape stood in Lily's view (and I agree that the many things she knew for certain about Snape were enough for her to make a logical and rational decision).

Yes but perspective changes, in the heat of the moment - Snape was willing to do anything to maintain his friendship with Lily, but the lack of communication led to misunderstanding. Yes there was nothing stopping him, except for the constant feeling of abandonment,

I don't understand. If Snape felt abandoned, wouldn't that be even more reason for him to say those six little words to Lily? "I was wrong, can we talk?" or these six: "you misunderstood me, can we talk?"

who was to say Lily would reply to him two years later? It isn't as simple as it sounds. There is no guarantee Lily would have listened to him, she also comes off as a fiery character, and in the heat of the moment she didn't want to listen to him. And if Lily really wanted to know the reason she could have easily asked Snape too, she didn't bother - which meant she didn't wanna listen to his explanation.

Lily believed she did know the truth - he was planning to join Voldemort. And he was - JKR said he thought it would impress Lily if he did. Lily was positive and we can only assume that in their daily interaction she had determined as much (we cannot assume their whole relationship consisted of the few scenes we saw). So Lily didn't feel she required more explanation. That is why it was up to Snape to untie his tongue and speak up. I don't believe Snape wanted to speak up because remaining tongue tied for two years is stretching it even for Snape.

I do feel however, that based on Lily's character she would have listened if he'd tried. After SWM, Lily spoke to James again and on that day she told him off quite mercilessly - apparently he did try to speak to her despite her basically telling him he was lower than the giant squid in the lake and she wanted nothing to do with him. They were not friends in the way she and Snape were, so he would have had even less of a candle of hope of her listening to him. But she did - obviously. So I think she would have given Snape that opportunity as well if he began by stating that there was a misunderstanding between them or that he was willing to change.

If she had done it sooner, she would have been just another gryffindor to Snape. The fact that she stuck by him, caused his feelings to intensify towards her,

How did she do that? My recollection was that she didn't show him any romantic love, just friendship. Thus, Snape developed feelings for her on his own. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. :)

and caused a change later in his life when he truly realized the mistake on his part.

What change later in life do you mean? He was already well immersed in the dark arts and planning to become a Death Eater to impress her, so I am not certain what change you are referring to.

Who know maybe Snape could have changed sooner if Lily had stuck by him after SWM?

That is possible or maybe she would have become immersed in the dark arts. :lol:. But we will never know.

Both of them deserve the blame? Why are we playing the blame game?

If you prefer a differnt wording, we could talk about 'causing' the breakup. Then no one is to "blame". In my opinion, Lily's actions helped to cause the breakup.

As to why we are generally discussing this subject - the poll question at the top of the page asks our opinion of Lily as a friend to Severus. I, for example, voted for the second option, Lily was generally a good friend, but could have tried harder. To me, the way she ended the relationship (not its mere ending) was blameworthy, however. Not hugely so, she was young and angry and convinced nothing she did or said would make a difference, but still, it is in my opinion reasonable to hold people accountable for how they deal with other people.

If Lily wanted to break off the friendship, she had every right to and I don't think anyone has a right to judge her for it.

It's not just the breakup, though. There was a time they were best friends, sitting on the train to Hogwarts, and then there was a time almost five years later when she closed the door in his face. And there was quite some time in between these two moments. Things Snape did, things Lily did, and things other people did, resulted in the movement from point A to point B. What else but that would we discuss on a thread about Snape and Lily's relationship? :huh:

As to why we are generally discussing this subject - the poll question at the top of the page asks our opinion of Lily as a friend to Severus. I, for example, voted for the second option, Lily was generally a good friend, but could have tried harder. To me, the way she ended the relationship (not its mere ending) was blameworthy, however. Not hugely so, she was young and angry and convinced nothing she did or said would make a difference, but still, it is in my opinion reasonable to hold people accountable for how they deal with other people.

I disagree. From what it sounds like from the book, Lily spent that whole year trying to get through to Snape with little or none responce. There was most likely loads of people in the school saying how he was a Death Eater but Lily stood by him. Then he called her a mudblood and humiliated her in front of everyone because she was the one defending him.
Lily did not give up to easily.

I think she could at least have let him finish a sentence or three before saying goodbye forever. It might not have made any difference, but we will never know.

I do think we can say he was not a lost cause, since he did come back from being a Death Eater even after she shut the door in his face. Which means he, with his love for Lily, always had the potential to make a different choice.

And I was unimpressed with her defense of him. If I were to wade into a similar situation, I'd probably start with Lily's first line, a fine one - "Leave him alone!". My next words, though, would be "Are you OK?" She acted as though Snape was not even there until the insult.

I think she could at least have let him finish a sentence or three before saying goodbye forever. It might not have made any difference, but we will never know.

I do think we can say he was not a lost cause, since he did come back from being a Death Eater even after she shut the door in his face. Which means he, with his love for Lily, always had the potential to make a different choice.

And I was unimpressed with her defense of him. If I were to wade into a similar situation, I'd probably start with Lily's first line, a fine one - "Leave him alone!". My next words, though, would be "Are you OK?" She acted as though Snape was not even there until the insult.

In all fairness to Lily, Snape was on the ground with his mouth full of soap at the moment and he could hardly answer any questions. I think it was pretty clear to her what state Snape was in. Although washing one's mouth out with soap is unpleasant, it is not life threatening (I know from experience - and my experience was much worse than Snape's on at least one occassion. :lol:)

I believe that Lily had made up her mind (more or less) to end the friendship before she and Snape even began speaking. I think that is why she was unconcerned about Snape's inability to respond. She already knew the answer to her questions. While we as readers cannot be so sure (especially in light of Snape's later betrayal of Voldemort due to his emotions for Lily as you pointed out), Lily was certain at that point in time about the road he was headed down. This was not the first conversation they had had on the topic, it was just the last. In addition, Lily saw Snape everyday and he was up to things that we are not privy to (things that made Lily's friends chide her for being friends with Snape). So because we don't know everything, I I don't think it is fair to assume that Lily was making a snap decision. The only issue that she needed confirmed was that Snape was going to join Voldemort, but even if that was not true, there were many other reasons why she wanted to end the relationship.

In all fairness to Lily, Snape was on the ground with his mouth full of soap at the moment and he could hardly answer any questions. I think it was pretty clear to her what state Snape was in. Although washing one's mouth out with soap is unpleasant, it is not life threatening (I know from experience - and my experience was much worse than Snape's on at least one occassion. )

I don't think the idea was meant to be taken that literally. :lol: It was simply that Lily should have paid more attention to her friend than to James.
And it does say that the soap was "choking him", so I think the magic behind the spell must have made it a bit more forceful than an ordinary Muggle mouth-washing-- but life-threatening or not, it's a humiliating experience, and worthy of a friend's sympathy.

As for Lily waiting for Severus to confirm himself entirely on one side of the war-- well, she certainly does break off with him when she feels assured that he has "decided", but for her to make such a calculated decision regarding her best friend sounds rather callous to my ears and I am loath to think so badly of Lily. If I were in a similar situation, and it was all but confirmed that my best friend was going to join a terrorist/hate organization, I would not wait for that moment of confirmation to leave his side-- if anything, I'd recognize it as a sign that at this moment in time, I am needed most. And if I couldn't persuade him, then I'd run to an adult, because when someone needs help, a friend is there to get it for them whether they like it or not.

That Lily didn't do this makes me think that she and Severus were already drifting apart well before SWM. The less dear someone is to you, then the less effort they are likely to put forth on your behalf, normally.

I don't think the idea was meant to be taken that literally. :lol: It was simply that Lily should have paid more attention to her friend than to James.

Indeed, thanks! I was speaking in general terms, not of the actual situation in OotP. A Finite Incantatem on the spells holding Snape, or Evanesco on the soap suds, would be more specific to the situation at hand. :D

That's your interpretation of the symbolism and my interpretation differs. I see the symbolism by the way Snape ripped the picture, as if to keep Lily for himself. That, coupled with how he was willing to turn James and Harry in order to have Lily for himself (as Dumbledore says himself), disturbs me. He may have not acted on it by trying to split them up when he was alive, but the way he felt was there, and that's what bothers fans like myself.
He literally tore the family apart when he tore that picture.

I always felt uneasy with the symbolism behind it, and it's left me with the impression that Snape never really accepted Lily's choice in who she'd spend the rest of her life with.

Snape's action by itself may look bad; but he did not tear the photo with a smile or with vindictiveness that Harry should not have a photo of his mother IMO. It was an action made when he was crying at a time he had completely burnt his bridges. He probably wanted the photo because he may have felt that her photo would give him the strength he would surely require from then on for the rest of his life IMO.

I would call that having illusions that Lily was the perfect woman for him to be in love with because he couldn't know that, but he believed it anyway.

I don't think Snape was under any illusions with regard to Lily. Not when she went on to marry his enemy; there would be no perfect vision of her, because in Snape's eyes she probably did the most imperfect thing of all, marrying James IMO.

That's how I see it too.

On Lily's side, I just have a bad gut reaction to the break up scene. Sure, I can see why she broke up, but I think she owed it to Snape and to herself to let him say his piece without interruption, and in full, before leaving.

:tu:

The coldness she exhibited when she washed her hands of a friendship that was at one point very dear to her lets her down in my eyes; it is not the friendship she broke; it is how and the way the broke it off that hurts me.

IAnd I was unimpressed with her defense of him. If I were to wade into a similar situation, I'd probably start with Lily's first line, a fine one - "Leave him alone!". My next words, though, would be "Are you OK?" She acted as though Snape was not even there until the insult.

:tu:

She does not do this either in the SWM and nor does she in the werewolf incident, which is what makes me think that she chose James over Snape and also took James's side and his position with regards to Snape.

IAs for Lily waiting for Severus to confirm himself entirely on one side of the war-- well, she certainly does break off with him when she feels assured that he has "decided", but for her to make such a calculated decision regarding her best friend sounds rather callous to my ears and I am loath to think so badly of Lily. If I were in a similar situation, and it was all but confirmed that my best friend was going to join a terrorist/hate organization, I would not wait for that moment of confirmation to leave his side-- if anything, I'd recognize it as a sign that at this moment in time, I am needed most. And if I couldn't persuade him, then I'd run to an adult, because when someone needs help, a friend is there to get it for them whether they like it or not.

Oh! Well said! :tu:

Snape's action by itself may look bad; but he did not tear the photo with a smile or with vindictiveness that Harry should not have a photo of his mother IMO. It was an action made when he was crying at a time he had completely burnt his bridges. He probably wanted the photo because he may have felt that her photo would give him the strength he would surely require from then on for the rest of his life IMO.

I agree with this. Snape had just killed Dumbledore, someone who (it appears) he cared at least a little for. Not only that, but he is now completely immersed in the Death Eaters and away from his true allies, all of whom think him a traitor. He would definitely be in a dark place psychologically. Even with his immense courage, it would take a lot to deal with that sort of isolation and guilt without some sort of comfort.

We see it with Harry: when he found out he was going to die, he used the Resurrection Stone, and his parents, Sirius, and Remus appeared. They were the ones whose could give him the most strength and the most comfort. Snape did not appear because he was not a comforting presence.

Now think of Snape-- he's all alone, isolated by the deed he has just done, wracked by guilt, and with a long, lonely, and possibly fatal road ahead of him. He sees Lily's image. Is he allowed the same comfort Harry is? Of course. Like Snape himself in Harry's situation, James and Harry are not comforting and they do not need to be. Snape takes only what he needs.

I don't think Snape was under any illusions with regard to Lily. Not when she went on to marry his enemy; there would be no perfect vision of her, because in Snape's eyes she probably did the most imperfect thing of all, marrying James IMO.

I would suggest that what really points to Snape having few illusions about Lily was the fact that he was her best friend for six years. When you know someone that well, you do eventually come to realize their faults.

Now think of Snape-- he's all alone, isolated by the deed he has just done, wracked by guilt, and with a long, lonely, and possibly fatal road ahead of him. He sees Lily's image. Is he allowed the same comfort Harry is? Of course. Like Snape himself in Harry's situation, James and Harry are not comforting and they do not need to be. Snape takes only what he needs.

As for Lily waiting for Severus to confirm himself entirely on one side of the war-- well, she certainly does break off with him when she feels assured that he has "decided", but for her to make such a calculated decision regarding her best friend sounds rather callous to my ears and I am loath to think so badly of Lily. If I were in a similar situation, and it was all but confirmed that my best friend was going to join a terrorist/hate organization, I would not wait for that moment of confirmation to leave his side-- if anything, I'd recognize it as a sign that at this moment in time, I am needed most. And if I couldn't persuade him, then I'd run to an adult, because when someone needs help, a friend is there to get it for them whether they like it or not.

The tenor of the thread leaves me confused at times. On the one hand, Snape should be sympathised with because when something has left him distraught, he deserves comfort to the degree where taking property from his enemy, Sirius' home, that belongs to Harry, and leaving the fragments behind is allowable because it is what he needs.

Yet Lily, equally distraught, equallly alone in her plight, does not deserve the same sympathy or allowance regarding her attempt to gain comfort by doing what she needs to do and ending her friendship with Snape.

Why is it that Lily should have placed her comfort second to another's and stuck by Snape's side - but Snape is allowed to place his comfort first over another's and nick Harry's treasured items? (From a philosophical viewpoint, strictly in terms of self-comfort.)

:agree: So do I. It's another example of Snape's selfishness. All these years later, he was still feeling sorry for himself. How long does it take to get over a girl you falsely loved? :no:

Falsely loved? Where does it say it was a false love?


And I don't see Harry deeply minding the torn picture, so I don't understand the argument "But it belonged to Harry!" being continously put forward. If Harry isn't apalled by this act, who are we to judge it for him? I fail to see why there is so much judging of Snape's actions by readers when on Harry's part there is so little.

The coldness she exhibited when she washed her hands of a friendship that was at one point very dear to her lets her down in my eyes; it is not the friendship she broke; it is how and the way the broke it off that hurts me.

How else should have Lily acted? Lily had to show how mad she was to get her point across. And someone yelling at your face definitely captures your attention. I don't think the breakup scene was a time Lily could be passive and depressed. This thought just occured to me. While it is thought by some people that Lily should have been more nicer to Snape in the breakup scene, what about if the roles were reversed and it was Snape breaking it off with Lily? Would Snape be any nicer than Lily while he told he was through with her (forget that Snape was romantically in love with her; he loved Lily as much as Lily loved him in the original breakup scene) ?

And I don't see Harry deeply minding the torn picture, so I don't understand the argument "But it belonged to Harry!" being continously put forward. If Harry isn't apalled by this act, who are we to judge it for him? I fail to see why there is so much judging of Snape's actions by readers when on Harry's part there is so little.
Exactly! It is Harry that is hurt so it is Harry's place to judge - nobody elses.

I don't have a problem with the breakup scene. It shows us the kind of person Lily is. We've seen her kindness and warmth, we've seen her defend her friend and be insulted for her trouble, we've heard that she could be cheeky and now added into that mix is a temper (which I'm not surprised at) and a reluctance to forgive (she did have a lot to forgive IMO) To mew it shows that she is no push over - she has her limits. To me it makes her more of a rounded person.
Another thought - I think Snape would have pushed her to her limits anyway. He wasn't listening to her, and that is always a bad thing. Whatever Lily's limits were I think Snape would have reached them sooner or later. This to me is evidence of his social ineptness - an inability to understand how close relationships work.

Would Snape be any nicer than Lily while he told he was through with her (forget that Snape was romantically in love with her; he loved Lily as much as Lily loved him in the original breakup scene) ?

Discussing how Snape would act when breaking up with Lily is beside the point, as far as I am concerned. He wouldn't, full stop, and I don't even think this is just because he was in love. It is because he would not turn his back on a friend, even a suboptimal one, which makes perfect sense for someone whose life experiences have taught that friends are a rare and precious commodity. When he finally does, the situation is one of life and death, where he HAS to choose.

He has demonstrated that he could use bad language when upset already. No one is denying it. :D

Personally, I am not saying she needed to be nice. Bad language, yelling, namecalling - I would be fine with that. My problem is not with what she said, or how, but what she did. I think she should have heard her friend out, in full, and then, if she still wanted to, she could have gone ahead and broken up with him.

:rolleyes: He wasn't technicaly a Death Eater, but he chose to hang with the people who went on to be Death Eaters instead of Lily. And he did become a Death Eater because he chose them over Lily. So it's really the same thing.

yes but it wasn't decided at the point that they were going to become death eaters.

and yes later he DID become a death eater but by this time lily had left him. she had married James.

yes but it wasn't decided at the point that they were going to become death eaters.

and yes later he DID become a death eater but by this time lily had left him. she had married James.

I think it was already decided. Lily had warned him fairly. She told him her views on the Death Eaters and how she really didn't like them, yet Snape continued to hang out with them. Now, she wasn't sure he would be a Death Eater, but it sure looked like he was heading down that path. Lily didn't want to take a chance with him.

And he actually became a Death Eater before Lily and James were married. Right after he left schhol.

And he actually became a Death Eater before Lily and James were married. Right after he left school.

That is your opinion. The earliest that canon tells us he was a Death Eater, was when he heard the prophecy. Lily was most likely already pregnant, much less married, at that time.

We also do not know when James and Lily married. "Right after Snape left school" could also have been when Lily and James married. :D

Falsely loved? Where does it say it was a false love?


And I don't see Harry deeply minding the torn picture, so I don't understand the argument "But it belonged to Harry!" being continously put forward. If Harry isn't apalled by this act, who are we to judge it for him? I fail to see why there is so much judging of Snape's actions by readers when on Harry's part there is so little.

The same reason that there is so much judging of Lily's actions when on Harry's part there is so little when he watches his mother end her relationship with Snape. Harry having "no" reaction in the text doesn't tell us how he felt.

That is your opinion. The earliest that canon tells us he was a Death Eater, was when he heard the prophecy. Lily was most likely already pregnant, much less married, at that time.

We also do not know when James and Lily married. "Right after Snape left school" could also have been when Lily and James married. :D

You're right, it is just my opinion. :D But I believe he was probably a death Eater for a while at that point, because the prohpecy was a pretty big thing, so Voldemort had to have trusted him. But the fact remains that he had always planned to be a Death Eater.

Discussing how Snape would act when breaking up with Lily is beside the point, as far as I am concerned. He wouldn't, full stop, and I don't even think this is just because he was in love. It is because he would not turn his back on a friend, even a suboptimal one, which makes perfect sense for someone whose life experiences have taught that friends are a rare and precious commodity. When he finally does, the situation is one of life and death, where he HAS to choose.

He has demonstrated that he could use bad language when upset already. No one is denying it. :D

Personally, I am not saying she needed to be nice. Bad language, yelling, namecalling - I would be fine with that. My problem is not with what she said, or how, but what she did. I think she should have heard her friend out, in full, and then, if she still wanted to, she could have gone ahead and broken up with him.

She could have, but it would have ended the same way. Imo, Snape was not ready to renounce the dark arts and his friends, or his desire to become a Death Eater (which he felt would jerk Lily around to finally seeing him as impressive). That is why Snape became tongue tied in the first place - he could not readily admit that he had no intention of giving up any of it because he knew it would cause her to march away. Saying nothing had the same result, but Snape hadn't considered that.

I don't buy the idea that Snape was unable to say anything in the face of Lily's wrath. He had absolutely no problem doing so in their conversation just before that when he told her "I won't let you" and she got just as angry 'Won't let me!!!!' Snape spoke up right away, backpeddling himself out of the situation and easing her wrath. So Snape knew what he had to say to do that in this scenario also - he just did not want to renounce those things she wanted him to. Imo, that is the obvious reading of the 'end the friendship scene' because the only time he became at a complete loss for words was when he became so angry he began hyperventilating as in memory #5 - that was not the case in this scene. He was able to override her speech before and he could have done it again - he didn't want to. Supported by the fact that he didn't say anything during the next two years either.

*Is speechless*

Er, I picked the wrong day to be away from my computer. :grumble:

Anyway, I chose the two options that stated Lily to be a good friend to Snape, because I believe that she was-- she befriended him and continued to be his friend despite the objections of the other Gryffindors, and despite the risk to her own popularity. I do believe she should have ended the unhealthy friendship earlier; by the time she finally ended things, and chose her way, Snape was already deep into the Dark Side, [staff edit]. He was no longer a person with whom she could truly bear to continue relations with (She even says as much: "I can't pretend anymore"), so I thought she was absolutely justified in breaking things off with him and going her separate way, onto healthier and happier relationships with others, and a life dedicated to courage, compassion, and conviction, defying Voldemort and fighting full time for the Order.

By the time SWM rolled around, I don't think Snape and Lily were truly even friends anymore-- they act very cold toward one another in the scene; Lily doesn't address Snape or even glance at him, and he bursts out and uses a terrible slur on her. They don't leave the hall together, talk to one another after the exam, or sit together and study in the warm weather; they act nothing like the other "best friends" we see in the series, particularly James and Sirius.

I too was very angered when Snape stole the photo from Sirius' home (Did he not stop to think how Lily would feel about him stealing a precious possession from her orphaned son and her late best friend?), and I saw his act as an expression of symbolism-- he ripped the happy Lily out of the photo, and threw James and Harry on the floor (A clear sign of disrespect for them, IMO). It was a mirror of what he nearly did during the first war, and I thought it indicated that he saw Lily as an object, and desired her for himself, to the very end of his life.

And yes, I too conclude that Snape joined up with the Death Eaters right after school; he "couldn't wait" to join Voldemort at 15, and I cannot imagine that he would have waited, especially when he was poor and had nowhere else to go.

Edit: I'm sorry my post had to be edited. I was referring to the part of the text in which Lily says that Snape calls everyone of her birth a mudblood. :)

("I can't pretend anymore"),

Lily says this on the night of the SWM. Does this mean that she was pretending to be Snape's friend for sometime and she actually was not his friend? I never noticed this until now.

Lily says this on the night of the SWM. Does this mean that she was pretending to be Snape's friend for sometime and she actually was not his friend? I never noticed this until now.

Yes, I think so. I think she stuck by his side out of stubborn loyalty but truly felt disconnected from him because of the choices he was making-- it must have been difficult for her to watch "Sev," the boy who introduced her to the magical world, go down such a dark road, but she finally realized that she had to allow him to make his own decisions, and that it was no use pretending to be his friend anymore. Poor Lily. :sigh:

Discussing how Snape would act when breaking up with Lily is beside the point, as far as I am concerned. He wouldn't, full stop, and I don't even think this is just because he was in love. It is because he would not turn his back on a friend, even a suboptimal one, which makes perfect sense for someone whose life experiences have taught that friends are a rare and precious commodity. When he finally does, the situation is one of life and death, where he HAS to choose.

He has demonstrated that he could use bad language when upset already. No one is denying it. :D

Personally, I am not saying she needed to be nice. Bad language, yelling, namecalling - I would be fine with that. My problem is not with what she said, or how, but what she did. I think she should have heard her friend out, in full, and then, if she still wanted to, she could have gone ahead and broken up with him.

Snape thought he could have his dark magic friends and Lily too. He never understood her aversion and thought she would be impressed.

Snape remained friends with Lily while he was friends with Death Eaters because he thought he could have them both- Lily and the Death Eaters. I'm not saying it is the only reason he remained friends with Lily, but the fact he thought he could hang around people who aspired to kill people of the same blood of someone he considered his best friend and not see the confliction in that is mind-boggling. That quote makes it seem Snape didn't see the own confliction of his choice to try to hold on to the two friendships. I think if Snape realised the conflict he was in, he would realised he had to make a choice. There's no way Snape could have hold on to both. Lily didn't like his Death Eater friends. And I'm sure his Death Eater friends didn't like Lily the mudblood. If Snape did try to hold to both, he would probably end up losing both. Is the kid "whose life experiences have taught that friends are a rare and precious commodity" going to choose have one group of friends or have no friends? So wondering what Snape would do if he was the one who made the choice to break up with Lily is a valid thought I think.

And there's nothing to prove Snape wouldn't choose the Dark Arts over Lily, if the breakup scene was reversed. Snape thought Lily would be impressed if he became a Death Eater, so Snape certainly was impressed with the premise of becoming one. And why not? If he became a Death Eater he would have power, status, respect, and it corporates his love of the Dark Arts. Also, his friends were Death Eaters, so it would give somewhere to belong. What did Lily have on that? She was his childhood friend- the childhood friend that didn't ask him how he was after the Shack inncident and the friend that smirked when he got pantsed and the friend that got a crush on his enemy. Dark Arts made him happy. Lily called him ungrateful. Who knows what Snape would choose if he made the choice?

I don't think Sev would have broken up with Lily - Part of his reason for wanting to be powerful - for wanting to be a Death Eater - is to impress Lily. His home life - his parents' relationship has taught him that a man with power is impressive to women - his mother married his father and despite their arguing she stayed with him. That is going to give young Sev a very unhealthy example of a realtionship. I think Severus really believed that once he had the power and status it would be alright because Lily would be protected by association with him.

I don't think Sev would have broken up with Lily - Part of his reason for wanting to be powerful - for wanting to be a Death Eater - is to impress Lily. His home life - his parents' relationship has taught him that a man with power is impressive to women - his mother married his father and despite their arguing she stayed with him. That is going to give young Sev a very unhealthy example of a realtionship. I think Severus really believed that once he had the power and status it would be alright because Lily would be protected by association with him.

If Snape remained friends with Lily, wouldn't his Death Eater friends get mad at him for being friends with a mudblood? And if his Death Eater friends wanted to stop being friends with him, would he still have the chance at becoming a Death Eater? Thus remaining friends with Lily kinda make a paradox (I hope that is the right word). He aspires to be a Death Eater for her, but because of her he might not become a Death Eater.

Lily says this on the night of the SWM. Does this mean that she was pretending to be Snape's friend for sometime and she actually was not his friend? I never noticed this until now.
It could have meant she was pretending to be his "best friend", but I personally interpretted it more as, she was pretending he was still the boy she met in the park that wasn't showing signs of being in the dark arts, being bigoted against muggleborns (well, signs she didn't notice), and thinking of joining a group trying to wipe out her kind. I saw it more as when she was hanging out with Snape and not arguing with him over something (which is hard for me to imagine personally :p), she would push those negative thoughts about him to the back of her mind and just pretend that part of him as a person didn't exist. But as he went deeper and deeper into the dark arts, she just couldn't pretend those things didn't exist anymore, because eventually that was all she could see.