Things change - boggarts, patronuses, and worst memories after DH

katishere
June 1st, 2008, 1:38 am
NOTE: So I surfed quickly through other threads and there was one on whether or not Harry's patronus would change but nothing on this general idea which is a question I've been wondering and that I think could spark a good deal of discussion.


Things Change

There are those three main things that we always want to know about every character and that people always seem to wonder. What's their patronus? What's their boggart? What do they seem in a dementor attack?

I was just thining about this in regards to a fanfic of mine where I'm contemplating a later scene with a dementor and wondering what the characters should see--would Harry still hear his parents dying? Or would he see something else--Dobby dying? Fred dying? Ginny nearly getting killed? Voldemort raising his wand to kill him?

So that sparked this question in me:

Would any of the main characters boggarts, patronuses and worst memories change after DH? And if so--to what and why?




.

kathleen_hpffl
June 1st, 2008, 3:02 am
Would any of the main characters boggarts, patronuses and worst memories change after DH? And if so--to what and why?

Hm, this is a very good question to ponder and I myself have wondered about this many times. Because of all the deaths and such that happened during the Battle of Hogwarts, their boggarts and worst memories would have changed. Their patronuses however might have changed if they loved someone deeply, such as when Tonks' changed into Remus' werewolf form. I think I've seen in some fanfic that Harry's patronus, a stag, changed to a form of his and Ginny's patronus, a horse. And Severus Snape's changed into a doe because of his deep love for Lily Potter and the grief in which he felt. So yes I would assume that those objects could change after the DH book.

wickedwickedboy
June 1st, 2008, 3:13 am
Seems the females have a patronus change when they fall in love (Lily/Tonks), so that might happen for some of them. I doubt Snape's patronus changed because he wouldn't have had one until after he changed sides (Death Eaters didn't have them) and by then Lily was his happy thought, so it just made a doe. So I don't think the men's patronuses change.

I don't think the Boggart ever changes, even if your fear does. Lupin's remained a moon and it didn't faze him at all, he got rid of it with a flick of his hand. Could be though that he simply had no other fears, but that is doubtful considering the horrors he faced during the first war and his best friends dying and going to Azkaban, etc. So I imagine they don't generally change. Perhaps if there are more than one, they will capitalize on many of your fears - like what happened to Molly, but otherwise, one will just stick with some old fear you had as a kid that is buried deep and it thinks it can scare you with that forever.

Worst memories change daily I would imagine. :lol:. Take Ginny; it may have been the whole diary episode in her life; but then switched to worrying over Harry being dead after reading a report; then again when she saw him "dead" at the final battle; then again when she saw Fred dead; later it might become her horrible play that lost her professional team the championship, and after that an accident little James Sirius had when small being rambunctious as he was; and later Harry gone too long out on a mission and still later the day she realized that none of the clothes from her youth fit anymore when she's 70 years old because she's grown too plump :lol:. So yeah, those likely change over time.

SusanBones
June 1st, 2008, 3:21 am
I think that boggarts change as people's fears change. Molly's boggart was the dead bodies of her loved ones. She would not have had the same boggart as a student. And once the war was over, her boggart may have changed, too.

LaDonna
June 1st, 2008, 3:26 am
I think we can assume George's would have changed into whatever Fred's was, or something that represented Fred. I don't really think Harry's would have changed, because it seems like that might have happened after DD died if it was going to happen. I thought if his patronus changed, I was thinking it might have changed into a phoniex after DD died, but I was wrong about that. Does anyone remember what JKR said about why Lily's patronus was a Doe? I thought she gave an interview about how your patrnous often changes because of the love of your life, but I can't remember how that would relate to Lily's being a Doe. Is it just because she was a mate of James who was a stag? Snape's became Lily's after Lily died, but it just seems like the Doe was Lily, and seems weird that it had to do with James Stag, since it wasn't a stag itself. I think George's thoughts brought on by the Dementor's would be Fred's death, and Ginny's would probably have been seeing Harry's dead body on the grass by V's feet from DH. Ron's may be Hermione being tortured by Bellatrix. Harry's seen a lot of horrible things, his may be a number of different memories. As for the boggart, I think Harry's would become the people he loved dying or V coming back. I like this question and discussing this.

wickedwickedboy
June 1st, 2008, 3:36 am
Lily's changed to conform to the love of her life because that was her happiest thought (hers formed into a doe conforming to his stag) according to JKR. Tonks' changed into a werewolf, but it is uncertain if it was male or female. But only the females seemed to change this way in canon (James & Lupin's didn't change). Maybe though it is whoever learns it first - the second just conforms - Remus would have had his first as Tonks was just a kid in the first war. Lily was Snape's happy thought so his was a doe - but it did not conform to hers (with a part of him still in it) like Lily's did (doe meets Stag), his became the same animal as hers, I guess because his love was one way.

katishere
June 1st, 2008, 3:50 am
Hm, this is a very good question to ponder and I myself have wondered about this many times. Because of all the deaths and such that happened during the Battle of Hogwarts, their boggarts and worst memories would have changed. Their patronuses however might have changed if they loved someone deeply, such as when Tonks' changed into Remus' werewolf form. I think I've seen in some fanfic that Harry's patronus, a stag, changed to a form of his and Ginny's patronus, a horse. And Severus Snape's changed into a doe because of his deep love for Lily Potter and the grief in which he felt. So yes I would assume that those objects could change after the DH book.

Mmm, yes I agree.

I think it's definately likely that many of their worst memories changed, but it's still debatable I guess, because, like with Harry, how do you judge what's worse than your parents's deaths? I mean it seems like he went through some horrible stuff but then each horrible thing was sort of coupled to something really wonderful. Like when he was walking to his death: that was horrible, but I don't really seem reliving that with horror because he got to walk it with his parents and two childhood mentors.

And just to add to this, what do you think Ron, Hermione, and Ginny's worst memories even are?

We never see them in the books. And same thing with Ginny's boggart.

Here's some of my estimations:

Ron's worst memory pre-DH: I'd imagine a montage of times Fred and George played really cruel pranks on him like when they turned his teddy bear into a giant spider (the thing that traumatized him into horrible fear of spiders for the rest of his life)

Hermione's: This one's really hard to imagine, we don't really know much about Hermione before the books so I can only try and find something from her adventures with Harry. (She wouldn't have met a boggart before anyway since she didn't have any contact with the magical world). I guess maybe when Ron was poisoned or maybe just a montage of all her escapades with Harry and Ron that turned out badly.

Ginny's: Thinking about both her worst memory and her boggart here, I think it would definately, definately involve Tom Riddle and her first year with the Chamber of Secrets.



As far as changes go, these are the things I was thinking about:

Ron's worst memory most likely changed to Fred's death, I'd imagine that that would definately be the most traumatrizing thing for him because the death of a brother is really, well, traumatizing. Probably the Locket-Harry/Hermione kiss too because that obviously had a huge emotional impact on him too.

I'd imagine that Hermione's would definately involve Ron leaving, I mean she like cracked when he left. Hysterical. I think that would definately warrent a worst memory since the battles and things didn't seem to effect her as intensely.

For Ginny I think that her worst memory would definately be the deaths: first seeing Fred, her beloved brother die, and then seeing Harry, the love of her life being carried limp and lifeless in front of Voldemort's sneering face--that probably scarred the girl forever.

But that does make wonder about her boggart--would it have changed? Would her greatest fear have been so effected by seeing loved ones die that it would surpass her childhood trauma of waking up to Tom Riddle telling her shes about to submit her life energy to him? I go back and forth with that one...


And my last bit of input here is about patronuses: Ron/Hermoine and Harry/Ginny having theirs become something else?

I wonder how common that change really is, I mean does it happen often or were Tonks and James/Lily just random cases.

To tell you the truth I see Harry's being the one to change. It seems to me that the change doesn't just occur when people fall in love, but when that love is a HUGE change in a person's life and a huge shift of focus. Like for Tonks and Lupin it was this whole ordeal that sent Tonks into depression and with Lily and James it literally changed Jame's entire disposition in order to win him Lily and Lily went against everything she used to believe in falling in love with him so both those things are completely radical--I'm curious as to wether it was James or Lily's patronus that changed? Does anyone really know for sure? I don't really think that Ron and Hermione's relationship warrents that because they just came together really naturally and easily, it was just right but never anything super dramatic or altering for them. If formed slowly and once it was out in the open it just worked.

For Harry I think finding Ginny meant a lot more to him because she was not only his soul mate but his promise for a family at last which was the deepest and dearest desire of his heart as we saw in the mirror of erised. I think Harry and Ginny's patronuses would become a pair. Whether that means that Harry's becomes a stallion for Ginny's mare, or whether they both change to something completely different I don't know. I like the idea of the wild stallion and the mare though, it just fits them and their relationship. Sort of two lone animals that have each other, wild and powerful you know? *fangirrling just a bit*


Seems the females have a patronus change when they fall in love (Lily/Tonks), so that might happen for some of them. I doubt Snape's patronus changed because he wouldn't have had one until after he changed sides (Death Eaters didn't have them) and by then Lily was his happy thought, so it just made a doe. So I don't think the men's patronuses change.

I'm not so sure though, I mean Snape seemed pretty booky and not everything he learned or studied was evil or anything so I can see him having a patronus before that. Besides, don't you tecnically still have a patronus even before you've conjured it? I think it's safe to say that if learned to do it before he met Lily, it would not have been the same as after so therefore anyone's can change. If it were only for females then that would mean that every male's patronus is chosen from birth which just wouldn't seem right because the thing that most impacts you is bound to change as life goes on.

I think that boggarts change as people's fears change. Molly's boggart was the dead bodies of her loved ones. She would not have had the same boggart as a student. And once the war was over, her boggart may have changed, too.

Definately! Yeah I think it's the same thing I was saying with the patronus, just because you haven't met a boggart yet doesn't mean you don't have a form it would take if you did meet one so therefore even if you only ever see one form of it, it might have changed a hundred times without ever being seen.

kathleen_hpffl
June 1st, 2008, 4:12 am
I think it's definately likely that many of their worst memories changed, but it's still debatable I guess, because, like with Harry, how do you judge what's worse than your parents's deaths? I mean it seems like he went through some horrible stuff but then each horrible thing was sort of coupled to something really wonderful. Like when he was walking to his death: that was horrible, but I don't really seem reliving that with horror because he got to walk it with his parents and two childhood mentors.

Exactly! I think that Harry's parents' deaths obviously had a very deep emotional pull from him but there is also plenty of other things that happened to him over his years; Ginny when she almost died in the CoS, Ron being poisoned, all of the deaths that happened to people dear to him(Sirius, DD, Fred, Remus.. etc.), and probably plenty of other things that probably emotionally effected him hard.


what do you think Ron, Hermione, and Ginny's worst memories even are?

I absolutely agree with all of the things that you mentioned, especially the after DH experiences.


And my last bit of input here is about patronuses: Ron/Hermoine and Harry/Ginny having theirs become something else?

Like I mentioned in my other post, someone had written in their fanfic that Harry's patronus changed into a stallion to show his love and deep affection for Ginny and hers turned into a mare, as you said.


Sort of two lone animals that have each other, wild and powerful you know? *fangirrling just a bit*
:lol:

This part made me laugh. I would have to agree with you 100% even if we do fangirl just a bit. :love:

LaDonna
June 1st, 2008, 7:26 am
Just because Tonks and Lily's changed, I don't think that indicates the females would be the only one's that change. That seems sort of sexist, and I really don't think JKR would plan this. After all, we know that Snape's changed for Lily. Has anyone ever heard if JKR has confirmed that James patronus was a stag? I don't think it was. I imagine that a stag represented James to Lily, but I still don't see why hers would be a doe instead of a stag like Harry's? I wish that it had been Lily's patronus all along and never changed, I would have liked that better. Especially since Snape's became Lily's patronus. And obviously, the doe was Lily, since Harry sort of recognized the doe. I just wished it had been explained in detail.

inkling7
June 1st, 2008, 7:42 am
For Ginny I think that her worst memory would definately be the deaths: first seeing George, her beloved brother die,

Um Katishere I think you mean Fred don't you? George didn't die.

I think boggarts could change depending on what your fears become. For instance Ron might have had some help in overcoming his fear of spiders and so no longer feared them quite as much and so another fear might have replaced his spider boggart.

Neville most likely got over his fear of Snape after Snape died and was revealed as a brave man etc and so his Snape boggart most likely changed to something else.

I think boggarts like patronuses can change.

LaDonna
June 1st, 2008, 8:51 am
I think we know boggarts can change, as we can be sure that Hermione's greatest fear is no longer failing class, and we know that Mrs. Weasley's fear of her children, her husband, and Harry dying couldn't have been her worst fear when she was a teenager.

Rons_Twin_Sis
June 1st, 2008, 12:29 pm
I expect most people's boggarts would be the people they love dying, really. As for worst memories, I expect Ron's would be Fred's death, and Ginny's would be Harry's 'death', or maybe finding out about Fred's death, as I don't think she was there when he died.

FurryDice
June 1st, 2008, 12:41 pm
Post DH, I'd imagine most peoples' worst memories would be linked to the Battle of Hogwarts or other events of that year, for example, Ron hearing Hermione being tortured, for others, seeing loved ones die in the battle, for Ginny, perhaps believing Harry dead, the loss of Fred, for all the Weasleys.

Pre-DH, I'd imagine that Rons' worst memories might relate to seeing Hermione petrified, the night at Grimmauld Place waiting for news of Arthurs' fate, the battle at the Ministry, being poisoned.
For Hermione, perhaps, seeing Ron after he was poisoned and her regret at the time they'd wasted feuding
Ginny, I'm sure, her time being possessed by Riddle
Molly, the loss of her brothers in the first war, perhaps.

Voldemorts8thHorcrux
June 1st, 2008, 4:44 pm
I imagine a lot of things would have changed. Lover's patronuses may change, boggarts may change from dead people to something a bit normal. Worst memories may be things like seeing your friends and family die.

Beatifically
June 1st, 2008, 6:59 pm
I don't think the Boggart ever changes, even if your fear does. Lupin's remained a moon and it didn't faze him at all, he got rid of it with a flick of his hand. Could be though that he simply had no other fears, but that is doubtful considering the horrors he faced during the first war and his best friends dying and going to Azkaban, etc. So I imagine they don't generally change. Perhaps if there are more than one, they will capitalize on many of your fears - like what happened to Molly, but otherwise, one will just stick with some old fear you had as a kid that is buried deep and it thinks it can scare you with that forever.

I do think that a Boggart could change. Lupin's probably didn't because, despite his reaction to seeing the Boggart, he still hated what he became every month at the full moon. It would make the Boggart useless if it never changed its shape in accordance to the person's fear.

katishere
June 1st, 2008, 7:36 pm
I do think that a Boggart could change. Lupin's probably didn't because, despite his reaction to seeing the Boggart, he still hated what he became every month at the full moon. It would make the Boggart useless if it never changed its shape in accordance to the person's fear.

Yeah I agree, the boggart can definately change because like it's been said before, Mrs. Weasley wouldn't have seen Harry dead in her boggart when she was young--he wouldn't even have been born and neither would her children. I guess you could argue that her fear didn't change though but it's still not reasonable to think that a person's greatest fear is the same from birth.

wickedwickedboy
June 1st, 2008, 8:15 pm
Just because Tonks and Lily's changed, I don't think that indicates the females would be the only one's that change. That seems sort of sexist, and I really don't think JKR would plan this. After all, we know that Snape's changed for Lily. Has anyone ever heard if JKR has confirmed that James patronus was a stag? I don't think it was. I imagine that a stag represented James to Lily, but I still don't see why hers would be a doe instead of a stag like Harry's? I wish that it had been Lily's patronus all along and never changed, I would have liked that better. Especially since Snape's became Lily's patronus. And obviously, the doe was Lily, since Harry sort of recognized the doe. I just wished it had been explained in detail.

Snape's may not have changed. Dumbledore said that Death Eaters don't have patronuses and they don't normally teach the very difficult ability at Hogwarts (Harry's DA class was an anomoly of course). Snape would get his patronus when he changed sides, imo, and at that point he already had emotions for Lily. But even if by some odd chance he had one before, his emotions were so shaken up, it would change because that is what Lupin said can happen (like with Tonks).

That is different than when people just fall happily in love like James and Lily. JRK confirmed that James' patronus was a stag and she said that their patronuses conformed because they were one another's happy thought as soulmates. I figure they learned it when they became Order members, at the same time, so maybe they just conformed to one another. But in POA, Harry had his father's same Stag because he 'found his father within himself' and we know James was a Stag animagus - so that kind of says that James was a Stag anyway which is why many people figured that Lily's doe formed to conform to it because James was a stag back in 5th year before either got their patronuses - but her patronus still represented Lily too because it didn't change into a Stag, the male deer, - it was a doe (a deer a female deer...:rockon:) - it just conformed.

But I kind of think James and Lily got their's at the same time when they were already in love - they did not have a "shaking up" moment involved because since they don't teach it at Hogwarts, it is likely they got it once they joined the Order and were already in love. Whereas like Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione got theirs earlier before they were settled in love, so they just got their personality patronuses. I agree with whoever said that their patronuses would likely not change because their would not be any real "shaking up" event associated with their finally confirming their relationships (like Tonks had).

Whereas Snape's didn't conform to Lily's patronus, because she didn't love him back and so his one way love just issued the same as hers, I guess. That might have happened to Tonks too, but the thing is, Lupin did love her, he was just in denial, so it was slightly different - and so hers may have been a female werewolf - although if she didn't know he really loved her, she may have been in the same situation as Snape at that point, mentally, so then it would likely issue like his and be a male werewolf. Arrgghhh - the one way and depressed love thing is confusing, :lol:

The_Green_Woods
July 23rd, 2008, 8:25 am
I also think the war may have had an effect on their minds and perhaps their Patronus.

Harry -- I think his would change from a stag to a doe, in respect of his mother and Snape.

inkling7
July 23rd, 2008, 9:30 am
Actually that's a good point his patronus might have become a doe instead and he shouldn't have any boggarts now. I wonder what people who don't have ANY fears would see in a boggart. Perhaps they see what a boggart really looks like?

MmeBergerac
July 23rd, 2008, 3:23 pm
I think that Hermione's boggart changed. After what the trio's been through, failing subjects sounds like a joke. I dare say that her new boggart would have something to do with Bellatrix Lestrange and the nigt at Malfoy Manor.

lily_potter73
July 23rd, 2008, 7:31 pm
For Ginny I think that her worst memory would definately be the deaths: first seeing George, her beloved brother die,

Um Katishere I think you mean Fred don't you? George didn't die.

I think boggarts could change depending on what your fears become. For instance Ron might have had some help in overcoming his fear of spiders and so no longer feared them quite as much and so another fear might have replaced his spider boggart.

Neville most likely got over his fear of Snape after Snape died and was revealed as a brave man etc and so his Snape boggart most likely changed to something else.

I think boggarts like patronuses can change.

I agree with you about boggarts changing, because as you said you can get rid of your fears like I did, i used to fear birds but since I started reading the book I loved owls and tried to over come my fears, Just dont laugh my family has laughed enough, but about your worst memories I dont think they'd change unless something worse happens to you so Harry's worst memories I think will remain the same, nothing ever made him more sad than his parents and Sirius's death.
I dont think Harry's patronus would change, if any one it's Ginny whose patronus might change to Harry's stag. She loved him so much or maybe to fred's patronus whatever it was.

Urania
July 23rd, 2008, 9:14 pm
If Harrys patronus should change I think it would become a doe, because he eventually got to know a respect his mother more (I mean, he only got to hear about James all the time) And since he (quote Dumbledore) was more like Lily in essentials I think if it should change it would become a doe...
I don't think a patronus have to match your partners, only if your personalities are alike too.

As to worst memories, Harrys I believe would remain the same... Rons either the loss of Fred or hearing Hermione being tortured, Hermiones would be the night at Malfoy manor, or having to make her parents forget they had a daughter, that must have been awful! :(

The boggarts change I'm sure!

katishere
July 24th, 2008, 6:33 am
About Harry's patronus, I don't really think it would change although I love the idea of the stallion and the mare. And I doubt Ginny's would change, she's got to much of an independent spirit and I think that her patronus would reflect that part of her that's always, well, inedpendent even when tied truely and voluntarily to Harry.

I think Hermione's worst memory would become Ron leaving--I mean she basically cracked during those months, I think that'd stick with her for quite a while.

And same for Ginny and seeing Harry dead, I don't think that would be likely to change. I'd be tempted to say Fred's death would be her worst memory, but somehow, putting myself in that situation, Harry's is worse because a brother's death means you have to grieve and Harry was Ginny's only real comfort--so to lose him was like the end of all comprehension.

I agree with the general concensus though that boggarts must change fairly regularly, for the same reasons, fears change and grow from day to day. IT's true that Lupin seemed to not be phased by his but I think this was because he was already so tortured by it, he couldn't lose anything else, he was apathetic to his "curse" but clearly through all we see with the Tonks/Lupin/Teddy episodes, he is definately NOT over the werewolf thing. It's still the deeply engrained fear that haunts him day and night.

So yeah, I'm sure that boggarts can change. I'd imagine Hermione's would, for the time being after DH, be something along the lines of Ron after he splinched, partially because it combines her two greatest fears: loss of Ron and failure--before her boggart was something like McGonagal giving her a 'T' on a paper which represents her fear of failing, and after her and Ron were pretty "together" she obviously became much more attached to him. When he splinched that one time and it was sort of her fault--she was pretty tramautized and couldn't even seem to do much to help him because she was so distaught. I think that kind of situation--where Ron's dying at her own fault and she's inevitably going to fail at saving him, would be her boggart's reflection of her worse fear.

Harry I think would Fred, Lupin, Tonks, Colin etc. etc.'s dead bodies in his boggart. The thing that seems to get to him the most in hindsight of the whole war is his guilt. Because he really conquered fear of death--the ultimate unknown--for himself, but knowing that the deaths of countless others are now unchangeable would probably be his greatest bane and fear.


I've always wondered what Ginny's boggart is. We never get a chance to find out.

inkling7
July 24th, 2008, 10:43 am
Well as things were all well 19 years later I would imagine that perhaps none them had boggarts pertaining to the time when Voldemort was alive. Ron still probably had his spider phobia but I wonder if the others have any fears now.

jenny_d_b
July 26th, 2008, 4:36 pm
I think what Harry saw in the mirror of Erised would eventually change, maybe his patronus - although I highly doubt it. I think his worst memory - that one is a hard one. Maybe his parents' death, mixed with all the other deaths? I don't know. But the boggart would still be a dementor, I think, which is explored throughout the series as a symbol of fear. Like Lupin said - "what you fear the most is fear itself". The dementors represent a fear of evil, a fear of death, a fear of your life in ruins, a fear of the dark side - a bit like the dark mark did for the older generation. But it's possible the boggart would end up like Molly's boggart - the dead bodies of his wife and his children, because Harry does not want to lose even more of those he cared about.

AliceLongbottom
July 27th, 2008, 1:01 am
This is just a thought, but maybe Harry's switched back and forth for a while between a doe and a stag. His feelings might have bounced around a while, after learning about Snape and his mother, but he also probably would still feel the same way about his father. As for the other characters' patronuses, I don't know if the shape that anyone elses took was ever really relevent, so I don't think that any other characters' shapes would have really been affected besides Harry's.

As for boggarts, I think that Hermione's might have changed over time, just because she might have learned not to stress so much over grades after a while. Although, I'm pretty sure Ron's stayed the same. He never did seem to like spiders....:) As for Harry, his might have changed from dementors to something about his parents dieing, since he seemed more at ease producing a patronus later in the series, although they still seemed to scare him. He might be more afraid of losing his family as he got older, but it probably just depends on what was affecting him given a specific time in his life.

katishere
July 27th, 2008, 1:48 am
To me it just seemed like DH changed everything for Harry and the others. But Harry especially. I mean, in regards to his patronus, it was sort of like his father had been that one symbol of everything he wondered--his father was his idol and everything he aspired to and something he longed for. Harry dwelled very much in the past, Dumbledore was always warning him about that, but it just seemed to me like DH ended all that. He could come to terms with his parents deaths because he got to see his dad and his mother and everyone and he actually experienced death in the sense of knowing you are about to die and he came to terms with that. After that I'd imagine he didn't really have to fear death anymore or the unknown which is what the dementor represented. Before the DH climax everything in Harry's life had been about the past, and the trials that were choking him off from any future but death, pain and uncertainty and so his patronus, boggart and worst memory all represented those things. But aftwards he almost...he almost became chummy with death to an extent you know? Like it was alright that his parents were dead, sad yes because he missed them, but he knew it wasn't the end because he'd been there and he'd seen him and he'd come to terms with it.

I think all his stuff would have changed to represent the future instead, like a boggart representing fear of the deaths of his new family or something like that and his patronus representing his new future, the new Harry etc. etc.

It just seems right to me. Two stages of Harry.

birdi86
July 27th, 2008, 2:59 am
If Harry's patronus ever did change, it would probably become a horse - to match Ginny's. I imagine she and the kids will become the knew "happy memory" he uses when he needs to conjure a patronus if the future.

katishere
July 29th, 2008, 1:34 am
I agree with that, I think if his was to change it would be something like a stallion, that would be really cool. And it's not too far off from a stag anyhow.

Raelis
July 29th, 2008, 9:00 am
We see in the books that Tonks's Patronus changed to match Lupin's, but we never find out if Lupin's changed or remained the same. We know that Snape's Patronus turned into a doe to match Lily's and we also know than either Lily or James had their Patronus changed. It seems that the Patronus of only one person out of a couple alters to match that of the said person's partner.

Does this tendency prove that the feelings of the person who had his/her Patronus changed are stronger and more sincere? Or is this person simply more dependent on his/her mate?

And why did Lily and James have similar Patronuses of different gender while Snape had a doe, like Lily? Shoudn't Snape's Patronus have changed into a stag?

birdi86
July 29th, 2008, 10:05 am
Maybe Lily's represented her joy of being with James whereas Snape's was just his one-sided love of Lily?

And I don't think we ever found out what Remus' patronus was. Somehow, I doubt it would be a werewolf. I think Tonks' patronus reflected her love and acceptance of his condition but was not the same as his patronus.

inkling7
July 29th, 2008, 10:30 am
Snape's patronus might only have become a doe after Lily died perhaps??

Raelis
July 29th, 2008, 10:36 am
Maybe Lily's represented her joy of being with James whereas Snape's was just his one-sided love of Lily?

And I don't think we ever found out what Remus' patronus was. Somehow, I doubt it would be a werewolf. I think Tonks' patronus reflected her love and acceptance of his condition but was not the same as his patronus.
I like to think Lupin's Patronus was just a wolf. It suits him. :)

Didn't JKR point out that Patronuses often change to match those of the loved ones, because the memory of these loved ones is usually the happiest? If so, then Tonks's Patronus did change into Lupin's.

As for Snape, I don't think that the fact that his Patronus was the same as Lily's is meant to emphasize that his love was one-sided. The only thing I can come up with to explain his Patronus is that it serves to show that he was completely devoted to his love, to the point that his Patronus didn't preserve even a hint of Snape's own personality (gender).

Also, I believe think that it was James's Patronus that changed, not Lily's. But this is not the point. The point is, only one out of the two of them had the shape of their Patronus changed - either Lily or James. Does that mean that this person's love was stronger?

If it was Lily's patronus that changed, this means that Lily loved James more than he loved her? Or vice versa? :hmm: Does anyone have a theory about this, perhaps?

God, all of this is making my head ache. :argh: :D

inkling7
July 29th, 2008, 10:42 am
I think since James' animagus was a stag for such a long time his patronus would have been the same so he wouldn't have changed it to suit Lily. However it might be a sort of accidental coincidence that hers was a doe - something to do with their being soul mates perhaps?

Raelis
July 29th, 2008, 11:04 am
I think since James' animagus was a stag for such a long time his patronus would have been the same so he wouldn't have changed it to suit Lily.
That means that Lily was not James's happiest memory. :)

Even he had been a stag for a long time, it doesn't mean that his Patronus couldn't change, I guess. And besides, I don't think we have ever been told that the Animagus form and the Patronus have to be the same (although I can certainly understand where this idea comes from). :)

However it might be a sort of accidental coincidence that hers was a doe - something to do with their being soul mates perhaps?
I thought the same but JKR answered the question regarding James's and Lily's Patronuses in a chat and confirmed that one of them had their Patronus changed.

James patronus is a stag and lilys a doe is that a coincidence?

J.K. Rowling: No, the Patronus often mutates to take the image of the love of one’s life (because they so often become the ‘happy thought’ that generates a Patronus).

Not to mention that Harry and Ginny are also soulmates, according to JKR, and their Patronuses are different.

inkling7
July 29th, 2008, 11:44 am
I can't see why you can't have a completely different form of patronus than your other half but still have them as your happiest memory. What happens if your happiest memory is a child who hasn't got a patronus because they are too young to produce one? I would imagine that Ginny is a strong enough and independent enough person to have her own patronus and not feel the need to change it to match Harry's even though he is the love of her life - and vice versa.

Raelis
July 29th, 2008, 1:48 pm
I can't see why you can't have a completely different form of patronus than your other half but still have them as your happiest memory. What happens if your happiest memory is a child who hasn't got a patronus because they are too young to produce one? I would imagine that Ginny is a strong enough and independent enough person to have her own patronus and not feel the need to change it to match Harry's even though he is the love of her life - and vice versa.
I agree with all of this, but on the other hand, aren't we supposed to believe that Lily was also independent and strong? If it was her Patronus that changed, does this mean that she was dependent on James? That she forgot her true self and was completely consumed by her husband's identity whereas James remained himself? :hmm:

This is the question I'm very interested in and I wish JKR clarified this as well as your point about a child as the happiest memory. :)

The_Green_Woods
July 29th, 2008, 2:12 pm
I agree with all of this, but on the other hand, aren't we supposed to believe that Lily was also independent and strong? If it was her Patronus that changed, does this mean that she was dependent on James? That she forgot her true self and was completely consumed by her husband's identity whereas James remained himself? :hmm:

This is the question I'm very interested in and I wish JKR clarified this as well as your point about a child as the happiest memory. :)

Wonderful points Raelis! :tu:

And I think that Lily may have been more in love with James, because she had broken off with Snape, we don't see any best friends Lily may have had. So I feel apart from casual friendships with other Gryffinjdors possibly, she may have been pretty lonely. So she may have placed all her love on James and pehaps loved him more. Interesting, and I think I have to think about this. :)

Raelis
July 29th, 2008, 2:36 pm
Wonderful points Raelis! :tu:

And I think that Lily may have been more in love with James, because she had broken off with Snape, we don't see any best friends Lily may have had. So I feel apart from casual friendships with other Gryffinjdors possibly, she may have been pretty lonely. So she may have placed all her love on James and pehaps loved him more. Interesting, and I think I have to think about this. :)
Thanks a lot! :)

I actually believe that it was James's Patronus that changed to match Lily's. Or rather it was initially formed due to Lily's influence (I just remebered that it is mentioned in the books that James's Patronus from had always been a stag). After all, he was the one to pursue her during their school years and he had to change his behaviour to win Lily's affection. Also, Snape knew Lily's Patronus was a doe, so that means he probably saw it when they were still friendly with each other, and James couldn't have been Lily's happiest memory at that time (if anything, he could have been a source of unpleasant or painful memories even if she was attracted to him). Apparently Lily and Snape trained together to produce a Patronus in their free time and Lily succeeded, which is not surprising, given that she was a very powerful witch. James's Animagus from being a stag is, I believe, a coincidence.

Also, I find the idea of Snape's patronus taking the form of a doe because Lily was in love with a stag ridiculous and implausible.

If my theory is right, Lily was indeed special because she was the one to have had such a profound influence on the lives of two men that both changed for her, as their Patronuses demonstrated.

But all of this is nothing more than speculation on my part. No matter if it was Lily's or James's Patronus that changed, the fact remains - it happened with only one person out of the couple. And I am very interested as to why.

inkling7
July 29th, 2008, 2:44 pm
Well I actually believe that their (Lily's and James') patronuses were somehow formed independently from each other but somehow they were linked by being soul mates unintentionally - coincidence or some mental or psychological link somehow.... It does happen sometimes and in the wizarding world perhaps it happens more often.....

wickedwickedboy
July 30th, 2008, 10:04 am
Well I actually believe that their (Lily's and James') patronuses were somehow formed independently from each other but somehow they were linked by being soul mates unintentionally - coincidence or some mental or psychological link somehow.... It does happen sometimes and in the wizarding world perhaps it happens more often.....

I think that makes sense also. They didn't likely get their patronuses until they joined the Order. I would imagine if you are soul mates, the patronuses would naturally conform to one another because your 'inner self' is atuned to that person already. (Now I understand what you meant when you said telephathy before. :lol:. But not so much telepathy as just their inner compatability). If they got them at the same time it would still make sense because they would be one another's happy thought and since their inner selves were already in tune, that is what they naturally produced.

I still think that Harry was likely Ginny's happy thought when she originally got her patronus in the DA class. But even if he wasn't, since they are soul mates, she would produce a compatable patronus anyway. A horse is very compatable with a Stag.

One has to keep in mind that Ginny and Lily are different people. So their compatability with their husbands would be based on different factors unique to them. So the horse is more in line with Harry's stag within the scope of their relationship as soul mates (and the Stag with the horse). Whereas Lily's doe was more in line with James' Stag in the scope of theirs - and visa versa.

I also don't think it is a matter of only one person's patronus changing. I have the feeling that Tonks' patronus changed because of her "big upheaveal" like Lupin said. She was in love, but at that time, Lupin was denying her and so her love was one sided at that moment. It is just as likely that once they got together her patronus went back to being whatever it was because that would be what would conform with Lupin's. Too, JKR may not have considered them soul mates in the "love of my life" sense.

inkling7
July 30th, 2008, 11:25 am
Didn't Tonks change hers when Lupin was reluctant to get involved in a relationship with her - sort of like unrequited love?

The_Green_Woods
July 30th, 2008, 11:35 am
Thanks a lot! :)

I actually believe that it was James's Patronus that changed to match Lily's. Or rather it was initially formed due to Lily's influence (I just remebered that it is mentioned in the books that James's Patronus from had always been a stag). After all, he was the one to pursue her during their school years and he had to change his behaviour to win Lily's affection.

I think this makes a lot of sense to me. Mainly because James would have been influenced by his love for Lily, probably even before he learnt to make a Patronus. While Lily's I think was a doe from the begining and remained so. Snape's became a doe because of his love for Lily.

But James's Patronus should have actually been a doe? Did it become a stag because (the Patronus and animagus is usually the same I think) and the magic inside him knew that he would be running with a werewolf and so needed to be bigger and stronger than a doe? So his Patronus changed because of his animagus need, and instead of becoming a doe, James became a staG?

Raelis
July 31st, 2008, 8:26 am
I think this makes a lot of sense to me. Mainly because James would have been influenced by his love for Lily, probably even before he learnt to make a Patronus. While Lily's I think was a doe from the begining and remained so. Snape's became a doe because of his love for Lily.

But James's Patronus should have actually been a doe? Did it become a stag because (the Patronus and animagus is usually the same I think) and the magic inside him knew that he would be running with a werewolf and so needed to be bigger and stronger than a doe? So his Patronus changed because of his animagus need, and instead of becoming a doe, James became a staG?

Yes, I think it was Lily's personality that influenced and changed the men around her.

It's a very interesting theory about a werewolf. I think James's friendship with one could probably be one of the factors which led to his Patronus taking the from of a stag.

But I also read a theory somewhere that it was James's and Severus's different nature of feelings towards Lily that turned their Patronuses into a stag and a doe respectively. Severus had only memories of Lily. She became a source of hope and inspiration for him, and his Patronus changed into a doe so that at least some part of Lily could always be beside him. :)

James, on the other hand, had Lily by his side and felt more like a protector, so his Patronus turned into a stag to symbolize that.

The_Green_Woods
July 31st, 2008, 8:59 am
I think all this would depend on just when James learned the Patronus. If it was well after 7th year, then it could be as you said, that he saw himself as Lily's protector; but if he learned it before he and Lily became a couple, that theory may not hold good, I suppose.

I think Snape's was a doe, mainly because he identified so completely with Lily, both as a friend, where he understood her fully and as a person he loved, so I think Snape knew Lily as much as Lily knew herself. So both their Patronuses were the same IMO.

Raelis
July 31st, 2008, 9:11 am
I think all this would depend on just when James learned the Patronus. If it was well after 7th year, then it could be as you said, that he saw himself as Lily's protector; but if he learned it before he and Lily became a couple, that theory may not hold good, I suppose.

Well, they became a couple in their 7th year. This is probably when James learned to produce a Patronus. Or maybe he learned it earlier, but only managed to make a corporeal Patronus when he and Lily were already together. :)