Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

I'm not sure I understand this at all. We didn't see if Draco took the Dittany at once. And we didn't see if James took the Dittany either. Neither was important to the plot.

"You need the hospital wing. There may be a certain amount of scarring, but if you take dittany immediately, we might avoid even that....come..."

Exactly, we don;t see James taking any dittany, which means he would have had the scar like George and possibly Draco and that would have been a big thing at that time, for Madam Pomfrey would have called it dark magic and that would have sparked off an investigation IMO.

No to mention that Snape never needed to use the counter song like spell to stop the bleeding in James's cheek IMO.

Is this supposed to support the idea that it wasn't Sectumsempra that Snape used. It seems very likely that it was. We know it was his speciality and it did cut James face with a gesture from Snape.

Yes. The spell is not mentioned in canon and there is no indication that the spell showed the characteristics of the sectumsempra and no one mentioned about it either IMO.

James may have had a scar for all we know. He was never described in detail. It would not have been a very noticeable one I shouldn't think. Did he never get a single scar or mark while playing Quidditch? I doubt it, but we never hear of those either.

He may have had the scar, in which case I think Sirius and Remus would not have sounded so defencive in Career's Advice. They would have told Harry, who was desperately wanting to hear something like this anyway, that "Snape used dark magic on them, what would Harry expect them to do. They had to retaliate."IMO

They would not have called themselves arrogant berks and they grew out of it. They were trying to explain their bad behaviour was how it looked to me, rather than explain Snape's attitude, which made them react so IMO.

Exactly, we don;t see James taking any dittany, which means he would have had the scar like George and possibly Draco and that would have been a big thing at that time, for Madam Pomfrey would have called it dark magic and that would have sparked off an investigation IMO.We have no idea what happened after that scene, and we don't even know if Snape was the only one who knew the singing cure. I don't think this kind of speculation is productive since there is absolutely no proof one way or the other. We don't know if the scar on James's face was cured, and we don't know if James had a scar. We don't know if he used Dittany, and we don't know anything more than was in print. And what was in print sure looked like Sectumsempra.

In DH, no one knew the cure to the sectumsempra, even when they knew enough about the curse to recognize it IMO. That was why I feel it was not the sectumsempra that was cast at James in the SWM.

I know I belong to the other camp, but to me it seemed clear that Sectumsempra was invented by Severus... It was what I gathered from the information in the text, and I never found any reason to question this assumption. Of course we can prove that it cannot be proven that it was Snape's invention - but this is not a real textual reason to suppose that it actually wasn't. I think that if it wasn't, there would've been a clearer indication to that which would override the fact that it was written in his textbook with a specification of its purpose handwritten by Severus, AND there would have been an actual reason to suppose it wasn't invented by him. I really don't see any such reason.

Also, the fact that not only did he immediately recognize Sectumsempra, but also knew right away that Harry must have gotten it from his old textbook, is a pretty big sign that it was his invention - otherwise Harry could've learnt it anywhere, and Snape wouldn't have reasons to immediately jump to his old textbook as the obvious answer to the source of Harry's knowledge.

Also, the fact that not only did he immediately recognize Sectumsempra, but also knew right away that Harry must have gotten it from his old textbook, is a pretty big sign that it was his invention - otherwise Harry could've learnt it anywhere, and Snape wouldn't have reasons to immediately jump to his old textbook as the obvious answer to the source of Harry's knowledge.This is what pretty much clinches it for me as well - unless the spell is a really obscure dark curse that Snape wrote down so he'd remember it. But that doesn't seem as likely to me as the other explanation (ie that he made it up).

Also, the fact that not only did he immediately recognize Sectumsempra, but also knew right away that Harry must have gotten it from his old textbook, is a pretty big sign that it was his invention - otherwise Harry could've learnt it anywhere, and Snape wouldn't have reasons to immediately jump to his old textbook as the obvious answer to the source of Harry's knowledge.

His recognition of it is in line with his general expertise on Dark Arts/DADA. I did not see this as any different that his knowing what Neville had done wrong on any given occasion in Potions class. Unless there are a suite of spells that have this similar effect (in which case, why suppose he invented one of them?), the symptoms are pretty distinctive.

Snape has shown some ability to tell when Harry is lying before. Especially when facts do not add up. And they don't - a library book that presented this spell, would explain its uses and effects, would it not? And casting about for other explanations, Snape could easily recall the recurrence of his old hexes at the school along with Harry's sudden briliance at Potions, and start to have a suspicion.

I though is needing to ask, suggested it was not his invention.

In DH, no one knew the cure to the sectumsempra, even when they knew enough about the curse to recognize it IMO. That was why I feel it was not the sectumsempra that was cast at James in the SWM.

In DH the spell was used once, and with a spoken incantation. So identifying it, was not an issue.

If it was used in SWM (and there are reasons to suppose not, perhaps especially if Snape did invent it), it was used non-verbally.

Yes, but apart from the fact that it cannot be proved with absolute certaintly that he invented it, is there a reason to suppose he didn't? Anything in the texts which overrides the fact that it was written in his textbook by his hand with an indication for its use, and NO hint to favour the "he copied" it theory over the "he invented it" one?

Yes, but apart from the fact that it cannot be proved with absolute certaintly that he invented it, is there a reason to suppose he didn't? Anything in the texts which overrides the fact that it was written in his textbook by his hand with an indication for its use, and NO hint to favour the "he copied" it theory over the "he invented it" one?

That it is written in his book, proves he wrote it there, not that he invented it. As for the hint that he did not, (emphasis mine)

"Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"

Harry, the only person who has seen the various spells he learned from the book, (that he had "pored over" on various occasions, see cite below) and how they were presented, and worked out, and described and written there, asserts the Prince did not invent it as if this were a FACT. Not a suggestion, or a possibility, but a fact. This seems not only a hint, but a big hint, to me. I would certainly point to it as the reason that I never considered Snape might have invented the spell, until I saw the proposal made on this forum, which I joined after reading HBP.

This is in contrast to, for example, this passage:

"The more Harry pored over the book, the more he realized how much was in there, not only the handy hints and shortcuts on Potions that were earning him such a glowing repuation with Slughorn, but also the imaginative jinxes and hexes scribbled in the margins, whcih Harry was sure, judging by the crossings-out and revisions, that the Prince had invented himself.

Harry had already attempted a few of the Prince's self-invented spells.

I do see the evidence for the contrary view, but would certainly not agree that it is decisive, or somehow more founded in the text.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in HBP, when Snape is running and Harry chasing him and trying to curse him, I remember Snape telling Harry something about daring to use his own (Snape's) spells, which he;d invented, against him. Was he referring to Levicorpus or Sectumsempra? Harry didn't know who the inventor of the spell/s was until then, but hearing it from Snape himself might make it conclusive.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in HBP, when Snape is running and Harry chasing him and trying to curse him, I remember Snape telling Harry something about daring to use his own (Snape's) spells, which he'd invented, against him. Was he referring to Levicorpus or Sectumsempra? Harry didn't know who the inventor of the spell/s was until then, but hearing it from Snape himself might make it conclusive.

Harry used both Sectumsempra and Levicorpus. It was the latter spell that apparently provoked the quote you mention. But as you can see, in that quote, Snape does not name the spell(s) to which he refers:

"No, Potter!"
...
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

I would point out, that if Snape is not using the plural to denote a general willingness by James and Harry to use any or all inventions of Snape against Snape, that if Snape means specifically Sectumsempra and Levicorpus by "them", "spells", and "inventions", then it follows that James used Sectumsempra against Snape.

And by this point, Snape knows that Harry has been using his old book all year and knows lots of his spells. So Harry's use of just one, proves Harry's willingness to use them against Snape. I find both assertions a tortured reading that relies too heavily on assuming great precision of language in a situation where it is not called for. (Both emotionally and in terms of the patterns of colloquial speech, the plural here could indicate a belief in a general willingness to use any and all of the spells Snape knows Harry knows, based on the use of only one spell Snape has invented in that particualr scene.)

That it is written in his book, proves he wrote it there, not that he invented it.

Yes, I get this part. But lack of solid proof that he invented it by no means equals a hint that he didn't.

As for the hint that he did not, (emphasis mine)

"Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"

Harry, the only person who has seen the various spells he learned from the book, (that he had "pored over" on various occasions, see cite below) and how they were presented, and worked out, and described and written there, asserts the Prince did not invent it as if this were a FACT. Not a suggestion, or a possibility, but a fact. This seems not only a hint, but a big hint, to me. I would certainly point to it as the reason that I never considered Snape might have invented the spell, until I saw the proposal made on this forum, which I joined after reading HBP.

But Zara, we always question Harry's judgement when he's biased (as with Snape). And he's clearly biased here, because he's defending the book and his own use of Sectumsempra from Hermione. That's hardly a well-weighed, reasonable conclusion made by Harry after examination of the writing of the spell. It's him looking for ways to justify what he did. I certainly can't see it as a clue that the spell was indeed copied out - it looks much more like a straw-man argument on Harry's part.

"The more Harry pored over the book, the more he realized how much was in there, not only the handy hints and shortcuts on Potions that were earning him such a glowing repuation with Slughorn, but also the imaginative jinxes and hexes scribbled in the margins, whcih Harry was sure, judging by the crossings-out and revisions, that the Prince had invented himself.

Harry had already attempted a few of the Prince's self-invented spells.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :) I see more reason to conclude that he did invent it than that he didn't. Like the fact that he knew immediately where Harry had learnt it, his use of the plural when telling Harry not to use his own spells against him - after Harry had consecutively thought both Levicorpus and Sectumsempra, and the plain fact that it was where all his other inventions were, with an indication on its use. I find this more convincing than a single instance in which Harry shouts that it was only copied out, in the middle of a very defensive speech against Hermione's rightful and well-earned reproach.

I do see the evidence for the contrary view, but would certainly not agree that it is decisive, or somehow more founded in the text.

I never said it was decisive. All I ever said that this is the view I've always taken, and upon consideratuion, continue to find it more convincing. Of course it's open for interpretation, and I never denied that.

"No, Potter!"
...
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

I would point out, that if Snape is not using the plural to denote a general willingness by James and Harry to use any or all inventions of Snape against Snape, that if Snape means specifically Sectumsempra and Levicorpus by "them", "spells", and "inventions", then it follows that James used Sectumsempra against Snape.

In any case, the use of the plural likely indicates that Snape is aware that Harry had used more than one of his inventions against him.

And by this point, Snape knows that Harry has been using his old book all year and knows lots of his spells. So Harry's use of just one, proves Harry's willingness to use them against Snape. I find both assertions a tortured reading that relies too heavily on assuming great precision of language in a situation where it is not called for. (Both emotionally and in terms of the patterns of colloquial speech, the plural here could indicate a belief in a general willingness to use any and all of the spells Snape knows Harry knows, based on the use of only one spell Snape has invented in that particualr scene.)

But... isn't the bolded part quite a tortured reading too? I mean, you have to sit down and purposefully look for ways that the plural may indicate something else than what its first purpose is - more than one of a kind (in this case, spells).

But Zara, we always question Harry's judgement when he's biased (as with Snape). And he's clearly biased here, because he's defending the book and his own use of Sectumsempra from Hermione. That's hardly a well-weighed, reasonable conclusion made by Harry after examination of the writing of the spell. It's him looking for ways to justify what he did. I certainly can't see it as a clue that the spell was indeed copied out - it looks much more like a straw-man argument on Harry's part.

I question Harry's judgment when it seems to me that I have as much information as he does, and especially when it comes to evaluation the emotional states of other people, rather than facts.

This is not such a case, in my view. First of all, it is about facts and not emotions. Even if Harry is emotional when he states the fact the spell was copied, thre is no evidence he invented this fact right then and there, he seems to me to believe that fact. Note he states the copying as a fact, but offers a mere hypothesis, one that is definitely slanted in the Prince's favor, as to where he found it. I would certainly not use this passage to argue against the idea that Snape read books on "such Dark Magic" as a student, or that Mulciber tried it on Mary and that is where he learned it, or what have you, I think such a thing would be the likely source for hinm to have learned it. :)

The text provides us with brief glimpses of the book, but tells us Harry has spent hours and hours looking through it over the course of the school year. (Tell sus this on like three different occasions in three different chapters!) So when one passage refers to corrections and calls a spell "self-invented", I accept that. And when two other passages 1) fail to call a spell self-invented, and fail to mention corrections, and 2) state a spell was copied, I accept that as well.

To me, this is directly comparable to, for example, the scene in "The Prince's Tale" in which we see Snape cut off George's ear. Harry asserts as fact, that Snape was aiming at the hand of a DE who was aiming at Lupin's back. I do not require that the text provide me with a lengthy word picture of the relative velocities and positions of each player in this mini drama, their expressions, motions, etc. in order to believe Harry. I accept that he is there and he has seen them all, and they are such that he can assert, as fact, what Snape was attempting there.

Emphasis mine:

"Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"

"The more Harry pored over the book, the more he realized how much was in there, not only the handy hints and shortcuts on Potions that were earning him such a glowing repuation with Slughorn, but also the imaginative jinxes and hexes scribbled in the margins, whcih Harry was sure, judging by the crossings-out and revisions, that the Prince had invented himself.

Harry had already attempted a few of the Prince's self-invented spells.
The following refers to the fact that Harry had just tried to use Levicorpus and Sectumsempra against Snape:
"No, Potter!"
...
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

Thank you for posting those quotes, zgirnius. In the first quote above, I don't think Harry knew whether Snape had copied out the sectumsempra curse or whether he had invented it. Hermione was ragging on him and he was trying to defend the HBP because he found great value in the book. That was my take on that comment.

The strongest evidence to me that Snape invented the Sectumsempra spell comes from his own words to Harry in "The Flight of the Prince."

I really don't see any problems with him having invented it. I believe it shows how talented and resourceful he was.

But... isn't the bolded part quite a tortured reading too? I mean, you have to sit down and purposefully look for ways that the plural may indicate something else than what its first purpose is - more than one of a kind (in this case, spells).

I did not have to sit down and think of it, what I describe above is an attempt to explain the way I read the scene the first time I saw it. I spent no time thinking of ways around it, I was tearing through the book at breakneck speed. :) ALso, like Susan Bones, I have no problem with Snape's inventing of this spell. I just don't think he did.

Another bit of evidene, from DH, that confirmed my view to me, was that Lupin knows the spell by name, and knew it by name, apparently, before DH. How, if it was invented by a schoolmate who used it nonverbally already as a 5th year?

Here is a real-life illustration of the English usage I mean:

Josh (my son, 5 1/2): Thomas is a poopy-head!
Me: Josh, it is not nice to call your friends nasty names.

Note the use of the plurals here, it is a widely used sort of turn of phrase. It would be correct also to say, "It is not nice to call your friend a nasty name", but I would actually be far more likely to say the former than the latter.

Another bit of evidene, from DH, that confirmed my view to me, was that Lupin knows the spell by name, and knew it by name, apparently, before DH. How, if it was invented by a schoolmate who used it nonverbally already as a 5th year?

In answer, it is highly unlikely that Snape would have used the spell non verbally at first whether he had invented it or not - unless he took time to practice it in that manner prior to using it. So it would be likely Remus heard it prior to Snape using it non verbally.

Nonetheless, even if used non verbally all the time; Remus would have recognized it just as many readers have. He did hear it during 7 Potters and he would have recognized it from their youth and finally had a name to put upon it.

In my opinion, whether Snape invented it or searched dark arts tomes to find it or learned it from his buddies, is immaterial. He wrote it in his book, marked it 'for enemies' and used it, imo, and that is really all we need to know to confirm that he was using Dark Arts at Hogwarts. Remus could not have ascertained that it was Snape's "specialty" at any other time as they were not together at any other time during their lives until teaching at Hogwarts according to the canon. I doubt Snape made it his specialty during that year, cursing students or what have you.

In my view, JKR was more concerned with ensuring that the readers understood Snape invented Levicorpus, in order to lessen James culpability in SWM. Using Snape's own spell against him, most readers imo, would interpret to mean Snape had been using it against others. She also had Lupin indicate it was used so frequently you couldn't walk 5 feet without someone doing it to you. That was so we would not think James created this spell (also used by Death Eaters in GoF) specifically to humiliate Snape - but rather he was being humiliated the same as everyone else - and Snape introduced it. JKR's point in SWM was that James and Sirius started things - but the further rampant speculation that I recall happening after that book was published was not what she had intended, so she corrected some associated notions.

Sectumsempra I saw as an added invention in order to show that Snape was inventing dark arts at the time, in connection with his interest. His interest had been stated, and shown (OOTP). But as it appeared to be largely ignored because Harry largely ignored it, it was reemphasized in HBP (both by Snape claiming ownership of the spell - and Harry reminding readers that he'd called his mum a Mudblood). Finally, we were given more information in DH-TPT - otherwise Lily would have seemed to have been basing her ideas about Snape on hearsay alone, which would have been a decidedly unfair reason to end the friendship, imo.

I question Harry's judgment when it seems to me that I have as much information as he does, and especially when it comes to evaluation the emotional states of other people, rather than facts.

But what he said in this scene was fully charged by emotion - guilt. To me, it's clear that he's looking for ways to exonerate himself and the textbook, because he knows Hermione is right, but is too biased and too fond of the book to admit it. That's why I see plenty of reason not to take his words as plain factual information. I think they're far from that, and that's why I'm not convinced.

This is not such a case, in my view. First of all, it is about facts and not emotions. Even if Harry is emotional when he states the fact the spell was copied, thre is no evidence he invented this fact right then and there, he seems to me to believe that fact.

Of course, and this a typical behaviour when trying to find excuses, which Harry is doing in this scene. He's throwing out possible mitigating factors, because he's extremely partial to the Prince.

Note he states the copying as a fact, but offers a mere hypothesis, one that is definitely slanted in the Prince's favor, as to where he found it.

Well, you certainly have a point here, and I now I see it can definitely be seen this way. I just never did see it, personally, it always seemed to me that all of it was excuses, at which Haryy was grasping in defence. But this is just my personal understanding of the scene.

To me, this is directly comparable to, for example, the scene in "The Prince's Tale" in which we see Snape cut off George's ear. Harry asserts as fact, that Snape was aiming at the hand of a DE who was aiming at Lupin's back.

I don't think they're analogous. When Hary stated that about Snape's aim, there was only one reason for him to state it - to point it out to the reader. When he says the Prince only copied the spell out, the text provides another reason for his making this statement (and for me, it was the first reason I saw) - he really really wants to exonerate the Prince, because he's too fond of him.

I did not have to sit down and think of it, what I describe above is an attempt to explain the way I read the scene the first time I saw it. I spent no time thinking of ways around it, I was tearing through the book at breakneck speed. :) ALso, like Susan Bones, I have no problem with Snape's inventing of this spell.

Hey, I never said that you did, neither did I imply it. I only said how the proposed reading looked in my eyes, neither making nor meaning any implications about your reasons for proposing it. Of course my being a non-native speaker reduces my capaity to assess which reading is tortured and which is "natural" (if there even is one), but assuming that "my spells", shouted by Snape directly after, and likely provoked by, two consecutive spells Harry attempted, both learnt by him from Snape's textbook, refers to those two spells doesn't seem a tortured reading to me, no matter how I try to see it. It seems logical - not the only possible explanation, but quite logical.

Here is a real-life illustration of the English usage I mean:

Josh (my son, 5 1/2): Thomas is a poopy-head!
Me: Josh, it is not nice to call your friends nasty names.

Note the use of the plurals here, it is a widely used sort of turn of phrase. It would be correct also to say, "It is not nice to call your friend a nasty name", but I would actually be far more likely to say the former than the latter.

Thank you for providing an example. :)

In the context of Snape's use of the plural, however, I'm inclined to believe Sectumsempra did fall under that use - because this sentence directly followed Harry's attempts at both spells (as far as I remember) - this proximity implies a ligical connection, in my opinion, and I did see it as a way to reveal th inventor of the spells Harry had been using.

As I said, all of this is merely how I interpret and see it; I agree wholeheartedly it can be seen in other ways too and have nothing against others seeing it differently (and I am sincerely sorry if I made it seem like I thought mine was the only, or best, option); I do not, and have not, at any time, supposed that you have a problem with Severus's inventing the spell, Zara, and never meant to imply any such thing, or that you see in it what you want to see in it (which I feel you might have taken away from my posts) - I don't doubt that your opinion is carefully thought-out and well reasoned, as is the case with all your positions.

Lupin considered Sectumsempra to be Snape's specialty, showing that he was known to use it, and of course other DEs must've picked up on it. Therefore, it wouldn't have been too obscure at this point, and the fact that Harry used it wouldn't have made Snape jump to conclusions that he got it from his old textbook, since there were other ways Harry could've found it out. I mean, even Lupin knew about it by DH at least.

If Snape hadn't invented it, but just copied it, would he really remember years later that he happened to jot down a spell in the margin of his textbook? I'd think he'd be more likely to remember the Dark Arts book he read it in, or another Slytherin teaching it to him, had that been the case...but to him, the fact that Harry knows it at all seems to be a clear indication that he must've read it in his old potions book. He does use Legilimency on Harry to see the book, but I'm guessing this is because he already suspects the source.

I'm not sure if these arguments fully prove my point, but I stand by my belief that he invented Sectumsempra. That also fits in with the fact that Harry first learns of somewhat harmless hexes...but that the spells increase in nastiness, possibly representing Snape's growing interest in the Dark Arts. He may not have invented the spells in that order, but I think the order in which Harry discovers them shows a kind of progression. And by the end of the book, the HBP goes from just making notes about potions to inventing Sectumsempra...and then killing Dumbledore. Of course, it's made clear that Snape is good in DH, but in HBP, we kind of see him going down the wrong path...which he did during his years at Hogwarts.

Anyway, we already knew he was interested in the Dark Arts. I don't think the fact that he copied a Dark Spell adds anything to our knowledge of him. Inventing one, on the other hand, adds dimension to his character and shows how bright he really is (though he may have been misguided).

I do think there's a good chance he used it on James because we see Levicorpus used, and later we find out more about it, and the same would apply to Sectumsempra. JKR likes showing us a scene and then later explaining the significances of its events (or giving us a bigger picture). It's like how we didn't know Snape was "that awful boy" but later found out....We also didn't know he invented two of the spells used in SWM.

"Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"But Harry was all about defending the Prince at this point, while Hermione was about attacking him. Harry didn't know whether or not Snape had copied it down, he was just saying that he had because he wanted to remain convinced that the Prince was actually a good guy. Because at this point he still was convinced of the Prince's brilliance and didn't know it was Snape. I don't think that line means anything.

Originally Posted by zgirnius HBP, "Sectumsempra""Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"

But Harry was all about defending the Prince at this point, while Hermione was about attacking him. Harry didn't know whether or not Snape had copied it down, he was just saying that he had because he wanted to remain convinced that the Prince was actually a good guy. Because at this point he still was convinced of the Prince's brilliance and didn't know it was Snape. I don't think that line means anything.


Especially considering the text just before that, helping us understand Harry's emotional demeanor and attitude at the time:

"[Ginny] would be playing Seeker on Saturday and...Dean would be rejoining the team as Chaser in her place. Perhaps, if they won, Ginny and Dean would make up during hte post match euphoria...the thought went through Harry like an icy knife...

"Harry,' said Hermione, 'how can you still stick up for that book when that spell-'

"Will you stop harping on about the book!' snapped Harry. The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"
My interpretation was that Harry was not only making excuses there, but he was raging with jealousy and bit Hermione's head off as an outlet for his emotions. At the same time he was defending himself because he still wished to use the book and he had hope that the "Prince" was someone upstanding (in his view). Later in HBP, he determines the book is evil, the way he sees Snape at that point and no longer wants anything to do with the book, despite its previous helpful nature.

So I would agree with Yoana's take here and DeathlyH's. Too Lucretia's because I felt the analysis she rendered regarding Snape's character in HBP was right on the money with respect to my own view. In fact, the build up of Snape's truthful nature in DH; heavily leaning toward the negative aspects of it, was almost overkill and one of the primary reasons I saw thru JKR's ruse when she had Snape kill Dumbledore (other than Dumbledore would never beg a Death Eater to spare his life - that was mega out of charcter.)

But as I saw it; Snape would lie, unaware how easily they could be seen through; and the worst memory was because of his calling Lily a Mudblood, because the humiliation he faced was no more than the rest of the school was facing - and what he was causing others to face (Flight of the Prince); and he was actually fascinated with the dark arts, even as young, and he really did create dark curses (Sectumsempra); and he really did carry the prophecy to Voldemort, colluding to kill the Potters, and Harry did notice his calling his mother a Mudblood, and he acknowledged his hatred for his father; and he really did make a side deal to kill Dumbledore with Narcissa, and he really would give a torturous detention (with the cards immediately following Sirius' death and the ever loss and sorrow Harry felt for his father's death - and the constant reminder of Peter's trechery); and he did loathe Harry to the point where he would taunt him about his father immediately following Dumbledore's death, then whip Harry even when the danger had passed ~ and have to be chased away from the deed.

All of these things were true and remained true even after the revelations in DH, imo. But until DH, one could categorize them as the acts of of a man on the side of Evil. After DH, a line could be drawn from the time Snape was a DE and turned to the good side; yet still an good number of his negative behavior and acts were done after the turn (and that includes those achieved prior to HBP).

I'm so happy. We have an actual discussion rather than a constant volley of "Snape is good!", "Snape is eeeevil", "Snape is good!", etc. :rotfl:

I have to say, Harry's emotional state when he says that the Prince only copied it down is important, IMO. The way I read the scene, Harry is rather desperate to prove his new friend would never try to cause that much harm to another person. As I said before, it's still a plausible theory, but I don't think the definite wording he used truly indicates that it's a fact.
Harry is only getting to know Snape here. IMHO, he cannot yet be considered an expert in all things Snape.

This is a slightly different topic, but I figured we're on the subject of the potions book anyway, so I might as well throw it out there while we're having such a nice discussion.

I find it interesting that Snape called himself the Half-Blood Prince in the first place. Now, the Princes are not a wizarding family we hear about very much...but they are purebloods, and Harry says:

'Yeah, that fits,' said Harry. 'He'd play up the pure-blood side so he could get in with Lucius Malfoy and the rest of them ... he's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name - Lord Voldemort - the Half-Blood Prince - how could Dumbledore have missed -.'

And it just makes me think...when did he come up with that name? And why, exactly? I wonder if anyone even knew about it...yet he wrote it in his book instead of his name, so no one would've been able to return the book if he lost it unless they knew he was the HBP. Maybe he wouldn't want the book to be attributed to him at all if it was found...because I somehow doubt he really went around Slytherin house actually calling himself the HBP. I figure he would've mentioned his mother's family to someone like Lucius, but again, would he be really proud of that nickname?

I think it's possible Snape came up with the title "half-blood Prince" around the time he was considering joining the Death Eaters. He would've had to emphasize that he was connected to an old wizarding family, and it might've been harder to prove himself as he wasn't a pureblood (which is where his spells come in handy). And then he might've discovered Tom Riddle was a half-blood too. I doubt Voldy wanted his followers to focus on that too much, but it's definitely something Snape could've known. That would've probably been kind of empowering to him: the death eaters are these snobby, pure blood elitists who look down on him, but the man they follow is a half-blood from a similar background as Snape himself.

Harry says Snape wouldn't have been boasting about being a half-blood if he were a budding Death Eater, but I guess what he was really boasting about was the connection he saw between himself and this super powerful man.

Or he could've written it in there bitterly, upon seeing how he was a half-blood among so many purebloods in his house.

I'm not sure, I've just always been very curious about the name, when he thought of it, and how often he used it if at all. :relax:

This is a slightly different topic, but I figured we're on the subject of the potions book anyway, so I might as well throw it out there while we're having such a nice discussion.

I am gald you did, this is an interesting question!

I find it interesting that Snape called himself the Half-Blood Prince in the first place. Now, the Princes are not a wizarding family we hear about very much...but they are purebloods, and Harry says:

We do not actually know Eileen's blood status. Harry guessed she's Pureblood, but it is not clear to me from what. What makes me think he is, however, right in his guess, is the nickname Snape chooses. "The" Half-Blood Prince. "The" can denote something unique...which fits if the Princes are pureblood.

Or he could've written it in there bitterly, upon seeing how he was a half-blood among so many purebloods in his house.

This is close to my opinion. I thnk it is also possible he was bitter towards the pureblood Princes. Was his mother disowned? Did her family ignore her and her son's problems? We don't really know, except that we never see any Princes, and we do see that Snape's needs as a boy are not being met well.

I think also it is something else in addition. We see that Snape as a young boy is apparently (my interpretation of the scene) aware that being Muggle-born matters in certain circles, though he tells Lily it does not matter. I think he was likewise aware a Muggle father would also be looked down in by those same people. Yet he talks to Lily about how obviously magical she is, and how Hogwarts "is real for them". I think Snape believed it was possible for him to prove himself and succeed despite the prejudice in wizard society, and his chosen nickname was a sort of defiant private gesture - a grand-sounding name for himself that nonetheless recognized what would be considered a shortcoming in certain circles.

In my judgment, Snape never suffered a single day in his life at the hands of another for being half blood. If someone shows me one example of a half blood being ridiculed or even looked down on in canon, I will concede the point. However, what we do see is that pureblood (purists) treat Half-bloods very well - as long as they share the views. Draco befriended Harry, knowing full well he was a half blood. (note Half Bloods get no flack at all - purebloods may be called blood traitors and muggleborns mudbloods, but half bloods are left entirely alone in that regard)

Snape had no problems being Half Blood when it came to his housemates - his problem was all in his head because he thought pure bloods were better, imo. Snape had ideas of grandure for himself, hence the half blood Prince (and still proudly boasting of it in HBP - and a similar reaction in POA when informed he might get the Merlin). Snape wanted to be big and impressive and to him, the most impressive were pure bloods while at Hogwarts, but the purebloods didn't look down on him if we base our discussion on canon.

In my judgment, Snape never suffered a single day in his life at the hands of another for being half blood. If someone shows me one example of a half blood being ridiculed or even looked down on in canon, I will concede the point.

Order of the Phoenix, Beyond the Veil

during the lengthy 'chat' Harry has with the Death Eater's before the fighting starts he begins to say Vldemort and Bell replies

"Shut your mouth! You dare speaak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your filthy half-blood tongue, you dare -"

I think that is one example of a half blood being ridiculed and looked down on in canon :)

Order of the Phoenix, Beyond the Veil

during the lengthy 'chat' Harry has with the Death Eater's before the fighting starts he begins to say Vldemort and Bell replies

"Shut your mouth! You dare speaak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your filthy half-blood tongue, you dare -"

I think that is one example of a half blood being ridiculed and looked down on in canon :)

We were speaking of pureblood blood purist students. Another point, they also didn't have a big problem with their Slytherin housemates who were not budding Death Eaters per what we see. Draco and gang were friendly with Blaise.

In my judgment, Snape never suffered a single day in his life at the hands of another for being half blood.

I agree: there is no canon to prove this point -- as it relates directly to Snape, I mean -- either way.

However, I have always been very intrigued by his self-appointed title, the Half-Blood Prince. :) I don't think we have solid canon to prove why he called himself that, but I agree with Zara that his use of "half-blood" has a defiant ring to it. It does sound defiant ... definitely. It sounds like he was really proud of his half-blood heritage, even though he had been Sorted into the House that idolised being pure-blood.

That tells me ... something about Snape. :cool:

In my opinion, the very fact that pure-blood is the height of cool, socially, according to traditional Slytherin belief, automatically puts all other blood statuses in an inferior position.

However, I have always been very intrigued by his self-appointed title, the Half-Blood Prince. :) I don't think we have solid canon to prove why he called himself that, but I agree with Zara that his use of "half-blood" has a defiant ring to it. It does sound defiant ... definitely. It sounds like he was really proud of his half-blood heritage, even though he had been Sorted into the House that idolised being pure-blood.

That tells me ... something about Snape. :cool:

I dunno. That would signify that Snape was not jealous of the purebloods and I think he was. I feel that way because he quested to be powerful and impressive; and the most impressive of the gang he hung out with were purebloods. I feel like he thought if he added the word "Prince" to the half blood, it elevated his status (in his head) to royalty. Wizards were not strangers to Kings and Queens and other royal names as they used the same ideology in their magical chess pieces.

While it would be nice to think Snape was proud of his heritage, and indeed proud of Lily's; I think the fact that he called others 'mudblood' and later went on to join a group that exterminated muggleborns and muggles, shows that he did differentiate bloodlines. Too, it likely fueled his loathing for his enemies who were pureblood, but didn't appreciate their status in that regard. In Snape's mind, I believe he thought that he would prove that he was better than all of the purebloods by becoming an impressive and powerful Death Eater. He actually did this, as when we last saw him in DH, he was Voldemort's right hand man. Voldemort was also making good on his promises and teaching Snape magic to increase his power (like the flying).

I think that would have been the good part of the story; despite being elevated to a position he desired, he didn't cave in and return to his old goal of being a powerful and impressive DE. But, I feel Snape had already seen by that time that the position was not all that it was cracked up to be and he wanted no part of it, so there was no temptation at all for him at that point. However, he remained boastful of being the HB Prince (as shown in Flight of the prince, "it was I who invented them! I the Half Blood Prince!" (who talks like that?)) - followed by denouncing the pureblood James as "filthy". So I think it was a statement of elevation rather than one of pride in his heritage.

In my opinion, the very fact that pure-blood is the height of coll, socially, according to traditional Slytherin belief, automatically puts all other blood statuses in an inferior position.

Yes, indeed ... half-bloods would have to really prove themselves in Slytherin House, wouldn't they? Really prove their loyalty to Slytherin, etc.

Of course everybody of that persuasion, even Bellatrix, conveniently ignores the fact that their Lord and Master, old Voldything himself, was a half-blood. :rotfl:

In my opinion, the very fact that pure-blood is the height of cool, socially, according to traditional Slytherin belief, automatically puts all other blood statuses in an inferior position.

I would agree that they would see it as inferior in blood status. However, they still cultivate them as friends, willing to treat them as equals. Or else we have a lot of character analysis to do when it comes to Draco (cultivating Half-Blood Harry Potter's friendship). So I would say Snape was not made to feel inferior - Lucius didn't seem to consider Snape inferior at the sorting after all.

Or else we have a lot of character analysis to do when it comes to Draco (cultivating Half-Blood Harry Potter's friendship).

How would eleven year old Draco know what eleven year old Harry's blood status was? :hmm:

So I would say Snape was not made to feel inferior - Lucius didn't seem to consider Snape inferior at the sorting after all.

Well, at the time he didn't know Snape's blood status either, did he? :p I am assuming that the other Slytherins assumed that if someone was sorted into Slytherin they were automatically cool. :lol:

(Which really begs the question: did the Sorting Hat ever Sort a Muggleborn into Slytherin??? :wow: That, however, is obviously a topic for another thread. :whistle: )

How would eleven year old Draco know what eleven year old Harry's blood status was? :hmm:

Draco knew all about Harry's past. He commented upon it, negatively during their encounter on the train. But more than that, Draco fully understood that Harry Potter was not from a highly reputed pureblood family. The Potters would have been on their family tree (or that of a relative), but as on the Black family free, it would have come to a dead end quite a ways back. :lol:.

Well, at the time he didn't know Snape's blood status either, did he? :p I am assuming that the other Slytherins assumed that if someone was sorted into Slytherin they were automatically cool. :lol: (Which really begs the question: did the Sorting Hat ever Sort a Muggleborn into Slytherin??? :wow: That, however, is obviously a topic for another thread. :whistle: )

JKR said that they did have muggleborns in Slytherin. I would say that Lucius was aware that Severus Snape was not from a highly reputed pureblood family. The name "Snape" would have been unknown as it was Muggle.

Draco knew all about Harry's past. He commented upon it, negatively during their encounter on the train. But more than that, Draco fully understood that Harry Potter was not from a highly reputed pureblood family.

Oh, OK. :)

The Potters would have been on their family tree (or that of a relative), but as on the Black family free, it would have come to a dead end quite a ways back. :lol:

Why would the Potters have been on the Malfoys' family tree, if Lily had also been a pureblood? :hmm: The pureblood families weren't that inbred, were they? :p (Although we have the Gaunts, I guess, to show just how inbred purebloods could get ... yikes!)

The name "Snape" would have been unknown as it was Muggle.

Huh? :huh: Potter is also a Muggle surname but James was a pureblood! :) Plenty of wizarding kids have identical names to Muggles, right across the Houses. :)

Erm ... we are getting off-topic, sorry. :p Somebody mention Snape! :lol:

Snape! :love:

Huh? :huh: Potter is also a Muggle surname but James was a pureblood! :) Plenty of wizarding kids have identical names to Muggles, right across the Houses. :)

Snape was not a pureblood family name - that is what I referred to. Nonetheless, I feel that they treated him kindly from the start, patting him on the back and such. Later on, Snape joined their gang, so I don't feel his half blood status was relevant. I mean, Bella may not have considered him marriage material, but in as far as daily treatment, I never saw Slytherin students single out halfbloods in the way they did "Mudbloods" and "blood traitors".

I think Snape would only have problems justifying his friendship with Lily. But I don't believe he did because he made it apparent to his friends that his dark interests were genuine. The fact that he remained in the budding Death Eater gang, says to me that he was not having a problem in that regard.

I mean, Bella may not have considered him marriage material,

*imagines Snape married to Bella* :lol:

And it just makes me think...when did he come up with that name? And why, exactly? I wonder if anyone even knew about it...yet he wrote it in his book instead of his name, so no one would've been able to return the book if he lost it unless they knew he was the HBP. Maybe he wouldn't want the book to be attributed to him at all if it was found...because I somehow doubt he really went around Slytherin house actually calling himself the HBP.:tu: Very interesting question. Snape must have made the name sometime while he was in school, though I think it would be hard to say exactly when. It is very interesting that he would choose to call himself the Half Blood Prince - either he did it because he knew he wouldn't catch flak for it, or else he didn't share the name with anyone. It's possible that among his circle of friends, he was accepted despite his heritage, and made the name for use just among them, as Voldemort did. I think young Snape would have told someone the nickname he created, especially since he seems quite proud of it during HBP when he shouts it at Harry (quoted above by wwb). The nickname was pretty clever play on words, since his mother's maiden name was Prince, and since I think the point of the name was to elevate his status. As for why he wrote that name in the potions book - I think it's possible he didn't want the book traced back to himself by anyone who wouldn't know him by that name.

In my judgment, Snape never suffered a single day in his life at the hands of another for being half blood. If someone shows me one example of a half blood being ridiculed or even looked down on in canon, I will concede the point.

Bob Ogden, who is not a Muggleborn, is called a Mudblood by Marvolo Gaunt. Bella is deeply offended by the suggestion that her Dark Lord is not a pureblood, ditto the Carrows by the suggestion that they are not. Bella refers to Snape's home as a "Muggle dunghill" and states she and Cissy must be the first of "their kind" to visit it. She can't mean wizards, because Snape is one.

Bella, at any rate, was a member of the same "gang pof Slytherins" as Sev. I doubt her attitudes changed in adulthood.

Bob Ogden, who is not a Muggleborn, is called a Mudblood by Marvolo Gaunt. Bella is deeply offended by the suggestion that her Dark Lord is not a pureblood, ditto the Carrows by the suggestion that they are not. Bella refers to Snape's home as a "Muggle dunghill" and states she and Cissy must be the first of "their kind" to visit it. She can't mean wizards, because Snape is one.

Bella, at any rate, was a member of the same "gang pof Slytherins" as Sev. I doubt her attitudes changed in adulthood.

I understand what you are saying; but as students, I don't think this was a factor. I feel that way because Snape wasn't stupid and I think he would hardly feel that joining the DEs was a way for him to become powerful and impressive if all of those joining (i.e. those in his gang) were openly ridculing and scoffing at him and treating him inferior due to his being a 1/2 blood.

In fact, I imagine even muggleborns planning to join Voldemort were not treated disdainfully or called "mudblood" by Snape and his friends.

Even in the example you provided, Bella later never condemns Snape himself for his bloodline. She is speaking of him disdainfully, but strictly about his behavior, actions and surroundings.

*imagines Snape married to Bella* :lol:

:rotfl:

I understand what you are saying; but as students, I don't think this was a factor. I feel that way because Snape wasn't stupid and I think he would hardly feel that joining the DEs was a way for him to become powerful and impressive if all of those joining (i.e. those in his gang) were openly ridculing and scoffing at him and treating him inferior due to his being a 1/2 blood.

fIn fact, I imagine even muggleborns planning to join Voldemort were not treated disdainfully or called "mudblood" by Snape and his friends.

Even in the example you provided, Bella later never condemns Snape himself for his bloodline. She is speaking of him disdainfully, but strictly about his behavior, actions and surroundings.
:rotfl:


Muggle-born wizards were not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances.

And we don't really know how the dynamics of Slytherin house worked. With so much hype and glamor about wizarding families like the Black and Malfoys, and with all the hate for muggleborns....How much respect could there be for someone whose mother married a muggle, when there's this obsession with lineage? I know the Slytherins were willing to accept Snape, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have felt inferior when they obsessed over the fact that many of them were pure-bloods. And his mom was technically a blood-traitor...so I just imagine if the subject came up, they wouldn't have been too nice. Of course, Snape didn't seem too fond of his Muggle father (or any Muggle like Petunia) and might have used that in his defense....Yeah, he was a half-blood, but he wasn't proud of it because he really hated Muggles.

Also, I'm curious about the "except in rare circumstances." When I read that answer at the time, I thought it might've had to do with Lily and the fact that Voldemort offered to spare her. I figured he would've made her be a Death Eater had she lived...and I guess that might've been part of the deal Snape made with Voldemort. Because Lily was openly opposing Voldemort, and I can't imagine he would've liked her to go on doing that after he spared her. But we never really find out what those "rare circumstances" really are.

And we don't really know how the dynamics of Slytherin house worked. With so much hype and glamor about wizarding families like the Black and Malfoys, and with all the hate for muggleborns....How much respect could there be for someone whose mother married a muggle, when there's this obsession with lineage? I know the Slytherins were willing to accept Snape, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have felt inferior when they obsessed over the fact that many of them were pure-bloods. And his mom was technically a blood-traitor...so I just imagine if the subject came up, they wouldn't have been too nice. Of course, Snape didn't seem too fond of his Muggle father (or any Muggle like Petunia) and might have used that in his defense....Yeah, he was a half-blood, but he wasn't proud of it because he really hated Muggles.

Also, I'm curious about the "except in rare circumstances." When I read that answer at the time, I thought it might've had to do with Lily and the fact that Voldemort offered to spare her. I figured he would've made her be a Death Eater had she lived...and I guess that might've been part of the deal Snape made with Voldemort. Because Lily was openly opposing Voldemort, and I can't imagine he would've liked her to go on doing that after he spared her. But we never really find out what those "rare circumstances" really are.

Well I have already stated that I agree Snape would "feel" inferior. I was merely saying that his friends in the gang would have accepted him and treated him like an equal, based on his beliefs. The rare Muggleborn who was pro-Voldemort would likely be treated well also, imo. If they made it clear that they felt him inferior and always would (in a more than casual way), Snape would not have held out much hope of gaining power and being impressive via joining up with that group of people. But I do feel Snape saw his bloodline as something he lacked in his quest to become powerful, hence the elevation of his status through his self-created name HB Prince.

Voldemort didn't only offer to spare Lily, he tried to get her to become a Death Eater together with James and both turned him down. That was one of the ways they defied him (relative to the thrice defied) according to JKR - this happened before Voldemort even decided to target the Potters. Voldemort asking Lily at that time was an example of a 'rare circumstance' I would imagine. Asking James wouldn't have been because he was a pureblood (although I imagine it was also rare for "blood traitors" to become DEs). I doubt Voldemort believed Lily would become a Death Eater merely because he spared her; he was planning to hand her over to Snape to use and then he would likely try to torture her for information before killing her.

Well...I am way too lazy to answer all the questions again, for the 9th time...so anyways, i voted all the poll choices :rotfl: (by the way Jess, you forgot to include a pygmy puff ;))

anyways, Voldemort was a fairly smart guy (I use the term fairly loosely) after he went into power and he would probably understand that sometimes, muggleborns would be useful, but I bet most of the time they were people he knew he couldn't torture out information and decided to try to offer them power (kind of like wormtail i suppose...). That was probably what was going on with Lily. Most Order members had no chance of ever getting into the Death Eaters, but because Snape was someone Lily already knew and liked, there was a small chance Snape could get Lily to tell him valuable information. He probably never took Snape seriously, but he could try.

Also, about half bloods in slytherin. My take on it is that the pure bloods, like the Malfoys and the Blacks, would be in a..."higher social class" and half bloods would be lower. For a half blood to get "popular" or gain "power", they would have to prove themselves. The same thing happens in normal schools, kind of, but based on beauty or athleticism or grades and that kind of thing and i think it would apply to Slytherin as wel

Um...I doubt any pureblood Death Eater recognized the name "Riddle" or considered it among those of high repute in their circles (like the Malfoys/Blacks, etc.) Thereby, I feel it was understood that halfbloods were not looked down upon (except when it came to super personal and intimate joinings like marriage that might destroy the bloodline). There is simply no canon evidence to show us otherwise.

I find it highly unfair to condemn the Slytherins for things that were not shown in canon. They definitely had some flaws and evil tendencies, but that does not mean we can place every evil and flaw known to mankind on its members. Even the blood purist members were shown to make allowances (Draco friends with Blaise who rejected Voldemort; his willingness to befriend Harry). And some of its members were not even characteristic blood purists (Slughorn, P. Black, Andromeda, Blaise, etc.)

To me it is stretching the canon to assume that all Slytherin blood purists disdained half bloods outside of everything but marriage and the like. It is not stated in canon and indeed the opposite is shown as I have pointed out. My Slytherins have enough flaws, they really don't need more arbitrarily dumped upon them. :lol:. Suggested possibilities that are shown not to be consistent with canon I think can be eliminated.

Snape likely felt inferior, but I do not think the Slytherins in his gang made him feel that way. That is, unless he had a desire to marry into one of their families - and since he had his eyes set on a muggleborn girl, I doubt he was itching to marry into a pureblood dynasty.

Also, about half bloods in slytherin. My take on it is that the pure bloods, like the Malfoys and the Blacks, would be in a..."higher social class" and half bloods would be lower. For a half blood to get "popular" or gain "power", they would have to prove themselves. The same thing happens in normal schools, kind of, but based on beauty or athleticism or grades and that kind of thing and i think it would apply to Slytherin as wel

I think this is a good idea. :agree: If he had to fight to gain their companionship to begin with, that could have been one of the reasons for Severus' desire to remain on good terms with Avery and Mulciber.

I don't know how much it would have mattered that Snape was a half-blood Death Eater. He could easily just lie about it, like Voldemort had, and if people believed him he would be all set. It doesn't seem like he had much trouble fitting in amongst the Death Eater crowd at school (even though we don't see him among there much). I think that if he told Voldemort and the others he was a pureblood, and they bought it, he would be fine. No one would know the truth since he was a good Occlumens.

The small number of wizarding families, suggests to me Snape could not hope to get away with the lie. Unless there happen to be Pureblood Snapes we never heard of, a Bella would know he's not "her kind".

At best, he could hide that his father was a Muggle. (And I think he may have). That he had "Muggle blood" on his father's side of the family would have been apparent.

I am not sure what the point is :lol:. Even if he was given a hard time in his house, then what would that mean? He obviously overcame their prejudice if it existed because he hung with the gang and Mulciber and Avery were his particular friends. It is likely Snape put everyone's mind at ease at once by sharing his dark magic curses with them, expressing his fascination with the dark arts and joining them in spouting hate venom against Muggles as he had done against Petunia in DH-TPT.

Still, there is no canon that 1/2 bloods had a problem in Slytherin house...

I am not sure what the point is :lol:. Even if he was given a hard time in his house, then what would that mean? He obviously overcame their prejudice if it existed because he hung with the gang and Mulciber and Avery were his particular friends. It is likely Snape put everyone's mind at ease at once by sharing his dark magic curses with them, expressing his fascination with the dark arts and joining them in spouting hate venom against Muggles as he had done against Petunia in DH-TPT.

Still, there is no canon that 1/2 bloods had a problem in Slytherin house...

He could have just said his father was foreign, There were no Delacour's till Fleur showed up. Was she half-blood?

I doubt they have a regsiter somewhere with all the pureblood family names in Britain. I don't think a name can definitely prove someone's blood status. However, the fact that Snape's dad was 100% Muggle wouldn't have stayed secret for long if heritage and blood status were as big a deal at the time as it seems to me.

So Snape believed it was possible he'd become impressive and powerful as a DE, even though he was up against all of these people who looked down on him and thought him inferior because...?

So Snape believed it was possible he'd become impressive and powerful as a DE, even though he was up against all of these people who looked down on him and thought him inferior because...?

Um, my sole point was that it was probably known that he was half-blood. I didn't say anything about the consequences of it.

There's the book Nature's Nobility. I think it is a register of the pureblood families.

So Snape believed it was possible he'd become impressive and powerful as a DE, even though he was up against all of these people who looked down on him and thought him inferior because...?

He didn't come from a rich, privileged, pureblood family like the Malfoys and Blacks. I bet a lot of the Slytherins knew each other before Hogwarts because of their families. And if they didn't, they could've said something like, "Oh, you're a Malfoy," and immediately known they were making friends with the "right" people.

So, I'm not saying they definitely persecuted Snape. But he at least would've had to do more to be noticed by them. And he probably proved himself to them pretty early on. Still, prior to that, there would at least be a feeling that he wasn't truly "one of them," and I think there's a chance they may have let him know that it first...however subtle they were about it. He at least would've had to feel left out when they discussed their families and manors and all that...and my main point was that could've led to him feeling somewhat bitter about being a half-blood. Which I think had to do with him calling himself the HBP....As I said, I think he might've meant it kind of bitterly.

He didn't come from a rich, privileged, pureblood family like the Malfoys and Blacks. I bet a lot of the Slytherins knew each other before Hogwarts because of their families. And if they didn't, they could've said something like, "Oh, you're a Malfoy," and immediately known they were making friends with the "right" people.

So, I'm not saying they definitely persecuted Snape. But he at least would've had to do more to be noticed by them. And he probably proved himself to them pretty early on. Still, prior to that, there would at least be a feeling that he wasn't truly "one of them," and I think there's a chance they may have let him know that it first...however subtle they were about it. He at least would've had to feel left out when they discussed their families and manors and all that...and my main point was that could've led to him feeling somewhat bitter about being a half-blood. Which I think had to do with him calling himself the HBP....As I said, I think he might've meant it kind of bitterly.

Do you mean he was putting himself down with the title? Thinking of himself in bitter terms? I would disagree. His statement in HBP came across as proud and boastful: "It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Bood Prince!" He then spoke as if James and Harry were his sujbects: "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

My impression was that Snape was in his element; he truly considered himself someone to be revered and the fact that two inferior beings (i.e. filthy) like Harry and his father would use the spells against him was a great affront to his "princely" personage. I see no other way to interpet that based on the way it was written. To me, Snape was elevating himself in his mind with the term.

This brings us to the next line and another consideration - Harry, in response to Snape calling his father fithy (and him as well by association), responds that Snape should just kill him then, like he'd killed 'him'. Re-reading that just now for this post, I am convinced Harry was speaking of his father. That was also heavily weighing on his mind as he spoke about it in the hospital wing. From Snape's POV; I think Snape understood that Harry referred to his father, but I think he also had some uncertainty, because it could also refer to Dumbledore.

The thing is, in neither act was Harry referring to Snape as a coward, imo; he was referring to the fact that Snape would not fight him like a man, but rather taunted and toyed with him and then disarmed him. Snape had also earlier called his father a coward for presumably always fighting at a disadvantage which was a lie (based on the canon that Snape hexed him at every opportunity in 7th, and if all of those opportunities included Snape being at a disadvantage, he could not make the claim of coward as he'd never tested the theory). But to Harry, not fighting was cowardly and indeed Snape finally striking Harry after disarming him was as cowardly behavior as any described by him, imo. So Harry was correct in that - but mistaken as to why Snape wouldn't fight; but Harry was also correct about his parents because Snape didn't kill them either, but colluded to have another do it; and finally Dumbledore, who from Harry's point of view, had been helpless - but he was mistaken about that.

Snape knew the truth of all of the above though, although how much of it he actually recognized at the time is debatable. He knew of course he was striking Harry at a complete disadvantage (disarmed, less skilled, a child), but I don't think he stopped to think of it as cowardly. As the book indicated, he appeared demented, and so I feel he just lost it and his loathing for Harry made the child an ideal whipping post for his pent up emotions and frustration, including the partial truths that Harry had thrown at him.

Do you mean he was putting himself down with the title? Thinking of himself in bitter terms? I would disagree. His statement in HBP came across as proud and boastful: "It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Bood Prince!" He then spoke as if James and Harry were his sujbects: "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

My impression was that Snape was in his element; he truly considered himself someone to be revered and the fact that two inferior beings (i.e. filthy) like Harry and his father would use the spells against him was a great affront to his "princely" personage. I see no other way to interpet that based on the way it was written. To me, Snape was elevating himself in his mind with the term.

I think he did have pride when he told Harry he was the HBP...but I don't know how else he would've identified himself to Harry to show the book was his. Also, he knew that Harry respected the HBP as someone "princely" because he invented spells and gave potions tips.

And I guess he did think James should've thought of him that way too...but part of that may have been not that he wanted James to regard him as a prince, but more that James should not have gotten credit for using Levicorpus. Yet he was the one showing off with it in front of a crowd, humiliating its creator.

But I don't know if as a boy when he made the name, Snape meant it with that kind of pride. I think he only would've been proud to be a pureblood on the basis that Voldermort was one too and rose to such power anyway. But clearly he was somewhat out of the loop in Slytherin, and he didn't seem fond of his Muggle father, and he was using the word "Mudblood" (even if it was just to impress his friends)...so I just don't think he was too pleased about being a half-blood. That is why I think he could've been bitter about being the HBP. We don't know how respected they were as a wizarding family, but maybe he thought if his mother hadn't married a Muggle, and he'd been a real Prince, raised by wizards, his life would've been greatly improved (at the least he wouldn't have an abusive Muggle father).

Snape knew the truth of all of the above though, although how much of it he actually recognized at the time is debatable. He knew of course he was striking Harry at a complete disadvantage (disarmed, less skilled, a child), but I don't think he stopped to think of it as cowardly. As the book indicated, he appeared demented, and so I feel he just lost it and his loathing for Harry made the child an ideal whipping post for his pent up emotions and frustration, including the partial truths that Harry had thrown at him.

Snape deflects every spell Harry throws at him and only really attacks him once. No matter how frustrated he is with Harry, he mainly fights with words and is not willing to attack a less skilled child. And the reason he sends that hot, whipping light thing at him is partly because he's so enraged at being called coward, but it's also to stop Harry from following him.

I agree with you, Lucretia, that there was probably some bitterness in Snape's choice of his nickname. This does not, however, have to mean, as WWB suggests, that Snape considered himself inferior. I think the text shows he recognized in himself (correctly) a level of ability that was above the ordinary. (The description of him talkign to Lily in the Forest, "oddly impressive" and "brimful of confidence in his destiny"). But at the same time, when he got to wchool, he would have realized that to some people, that is not what matters most. To a Bella, his lack of pure blood would be more important. To a Slughorn, that and the poverty of his circumstances would make him less interesting.

I think the nickname expresses a defiant belief in his own worth despite the prevailing views in his House (choosing the titel Prince, also his mother's maiden name), and at the same time incorporates the dark, sarcastic humor we see in him elsewhere as well, by adding "Half-Blood" to that, a descriptor that in the eyes of some fits not so well with the grandeur of "Prince".

I think he did have pride when he told Harry he was the HBP...but I don't know how else he would've identified himself to Harry to show the book was his. Also, he knew that Harry respected the HBP as someone "princely" because he invented spells and gave potions tips.

And I guess he did think James should've thought of him that way too...but part of that may have been not that he wanted James to regard him as a prince, but more that James should not have gotten credit for using Levicorpus. Yet he was the one showing off with it in front of a crowd, humiliating its creator.

Everyone was doing it - you couldn't walk 5 feet without someone lifting you up. It is not logical to me that James would get credit for using the same spell everyone else was using so frequently. Snape was angry, he said, because James used it against him (HBP).

This goes back to Snape seeing others that he didn't like or respect as 'inferior'. At Hogwarts, he associated it with Bloodlines also; but as an adult, I feel he may have just associated it with those he did not like or respect and half-breeds like werewolves and vampires which many in society looked down upon in general.

Snape deflects every spell Harry throws at him and only really attacks him once. No matter how frustrated he is with Harry, he mainly fights with words and is not willing to attack a less skilled child. And the reason he sends that hot, whipping light thing at him is partly because he's so enraged at being called coward, but it's also to stop Harry from following him.

Nothing like using a whipping curse when a freezing or binding spell would do... I am afraid I cannot agree with that reasoning. :no:

I agree with you, Lucretia, that there was probably some bitterness in Snape's choice of his nickname. This does not, however, have to mean, as WWB suggests, that Snape considered himself inferior. I think the text shows he recognized in himself (correctly) a level of ability that was above the ordinary. (The description of him talkign to Lily in the Forest, "oddly impressive" and "brimful of confidence in his destiny"). But at the same time, when he got to wchool, he would have realized that to some people, that is not what matters most. To a Bella, his lack of pure blood would be more important. To a Slughorn, that and the poverty of his circumstances would make him less interesting.

I think the nickname expresses a defiant belief in his own worth despite the prevailing views in his House (choosing the titel Prince, also his mother's maiden name), and at the same time incorporates the dark, sarcastic humor we see in him elsewhere as well, by adding "Half-Blood" to that, a descriptor that in the eyes of some fits not so well with the grandeur of "Prince".

Actually I agree with this interpretation. It does smack of Snape's humor. But I think too it expresses that Snape understood what he saw as his 'station' in life and wished for it to be elevated (remember JKR said he wanted to be impressive and powerful?) So the "prince" elevates the Half-Blood to something better than pureblood, something royal (or at least equal). That is why I think he took that particular tone in HBP - it was arrogant and egotistically stated as written, imo, and his subsequent comment indicated that he felt others, like Harry and James, inferior, despite their bloodline (half/pure blood), merely because he loathed them and lacked respect for them, imo.

I think the nickname expresses a defiant belief in his own worth despite the prevailing views in his House (choosing the titel Prince, also his mother's maiden name), and at the same time incorporates the dark, sarcastic humor we see in him elsewhere as well, by adding "Half-Blood" to that, a descriptor that in the eyes of some fits not so well with the grandeur of "Prince".I agree with the idea that the creation of the nickname was intended to increase his own self worth, particularly at a time in his life when he sought acceptance from others. The addition of "half blood" seems to add a kind of irony to the fact that he was in a house that valued the purity of blood which he didn't have.

I agree with the idea that the creation of the nickname was intended to increase his own self worth, particularly at a time in his life when he sought acceptance from others. The addition of "half blood" seems to add a kind of irony to the fact that he was in a house that valued the purity of blood which he didn't have.I wonder though- did anybody else actually know about the nickname? The Death Eaters wouldn't have liked it, since it showed he was half-blood and they only accept Purebloods, and the Marauders never knew about it because Lupin tells Harry so (HBP Chapter 18). It was probably just a nickname he came up with and called himself.

I wonder though- did anybody else actually know about the nickname?

All the evidence seems to me to suggest that it was a private nickname. Perhaps Lily knew it, but certainly it does not seem anyone else would have.

It is suprising to me that Snape would have remained boastful and cocksure (my opinion of his behavior in HBP), after having been a murderer and evil doer as a Death Eater and turned from that. I would think he would be a lot more humble overall.

It is suprising to me that Snape would have remained boastful and cocksure (my opinion of his behavior in HBP), after having been a murderer and evil doer as a Death Eater and turned from that. I would think he would be a lot more humble overall.

I'm just curious if you could give a few examples of times when you think he was being boastful...or are you referring to him telling Harry "I am the HBP!" and his behavior in that scene?

Personally, I think if it was "boastful," it was maybe because he'd been through so much...having to kill Dumbledore and spying...and everyone still hated him and believed him to be a bad guy because he couldn't reveal the truth. So no one even appreciated his efforts. And killing Dumbledore had to be a pretty big emotional drain (he does worry about how it will damage his soul)...so I think he's just frustrated, because he's done all this, and here Harry is calling him a coward, when actually, he's the one who invented the spells Harry is using and helped him out so much.

So I think he just feels a bit unappreciated...not that I'd expect Harry to appreciate him after he just saw Snape kill Dumbledore (and doesn't consider there could've been a plan...again, I wouldn't expect it from him). But that's my interpretation in Snape's "boastfulness" as you called it in this particular scene.

It is suprising to me that Snape would have remained boastful and cocksure (my opinion of his behavior in HBP), after having been a murderer and evil doer as a Death Eater and turned from that. I would think he would be a lot more humble overall.

I respectfully disagree with this. I don't think Snape was ever boastful, and not in HBP either.

The whole of 6th year for Snape IMO would have been filled with thoughts of murdering Dumbeldore and the consequences thereof; and Snape would also have the message that he would need to deliver to Harry, (sending Harry to his death) constantly with him all through HBP. Two things that Snape knew would cost him everything IMO.

He also knew that the result of both the tasks would be a terrible burden for him to bear (we see him sobbing in TPT after DD's death, where he tears Lily picture for solace and strength for the future), for, delivering the message to Harry would almost be worse than killing Dumbeldore IMO.

Snape IMO would have spent the whole year anguished about these two tasks he had to do and I think it was his tremendous self control, Occlumency knowledge, and his determination of keeping the bigger picture in mind, that must have got him through not only year 6, but also year7 IMO.

--------------------
About the Prince's book!

Just why did Snape leave that book behind? I really wonder about this. It had a lot of valuable spells, a lot of useful spells and wonderful potion corrections and yet, he left it behind, when he became DADA teacher.

Harry got it; what if some other person had stolen it. Or did Snape after knowing from McGonagall that Harry did not have his potions book, leave it there? But then, he would have no way of knowing that Harry would get that book from Slughorn.

I find it very surprising that Snape left this book carelessly around. I think it is a plot hole for Harry to land with this book by JKR.

Yes, it is surprising given how vivid his memories of it are (when he was shouting at Harry at the end), but I've done similar things with my own textbooks, even important ones- it's not entirely unusual among students to leave old textbooks in a cupboard, assuming it's safe there (and most of the time you'd be right). I don't think he anticipated students turning up for class without books (Harry and Ron didn't know they'd qualified to take Potions and didn't buy their potions books) and getting lent his old book by Slughorn (I'm sure anyone without a book in Snape's time as Potions Master would have been made to share a book, and given a detention :)).
In addition, there's another fact that couldn't have been anticipated: Harry replaced the Prince's book with a new Potions book from Flourish and Blotts, having decided he'd keep the Prince's book (because to his mind and that of most people, a new book's a good enough replacement for an old book). That was something Snape couldn't possibly have thought about beforehand, people borrowing books are supposed to return, not replace (with a new book) them.

I also suspect Snape hadn't looked at his old book in years, he probably knew everything in it off by heart.

I don't think he anticipated students turning up for class without books (Harry and Ron didn't know they'd qualified to take Potions and didn't buy their potions books) and getting lent his old book by Slughorn.

I agree. Snape may not have imagined that 6th year students would come to his class without Advanced Potion making; no one knew that Snape would not be taking potions that year and no student would really be careless enough to come to their first Potions NEWTS class without their books IMO.

In addition, there's another fact that couldn't have been anticipated: Harry replaced the Prince's book with a new Potions book from Flourish and Blotts, having decided he'd keep the Prince's book (because to his mind and that of most people, a new book's a good enough replacement for an old book). That was something Snape couldn't possibly have thought about beforehand, people borrowing books are supposed to return, not replace (with a new book) them.

I agree, though Snape did come to know that Harry had his book after the sectumsempra on Draco; but he allowed Harry to get away with the lie; he did not mind Harry having it IMO.

I'm just curious if you could give a few examples of times when you think he was being boastful...or are you referring to him telling Harry "I am the HBP!" and his behavior in that scene?

Yes, that was the scene we were discussing. :)

Personally, I think if it was "boastful," it was maybe because he'd been through so much...having to kill Dumbledore and spying...and everyone still hated him and believed him to be a bad guy because he couldn't reveal the truth. So no one even appreciated his efforts. And killing Dumbledore had to be a pretty big emotional drain (he does worry about how it will damage his soul)...so I think he's just frustrated, because he's done all this, and here Harry is calling him a coward, when actually, he's the one who invented the spells Harry is using and helped him out so much.

I respect your view. The way JKR wrote Snape to speak in that scene was entirely boastful and arrogant in my view. Recall the canon:

Harry tried Sectumsempra and Snape repelled the spell. Then Harry tries Levicorpus and Snape screams: "No Potter!" and used a knocking curse to send him reeling backward onto the ground. Then:

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!' ~ HBP Flight of the Prince.

Snape did not say, 'I invented those spells Harry, I am the half blood prince in the book. Don't try to turn them on me!'. That would be frustration to me. What Snape said was that Harry dared to turn his own spell's on him. What he meant by that Snape clarified himself 'like your filthy father, I don't think so'. In other words, imo, Snape felt Harry and his father so inferior to himself, they were not worthy of using his spells - especially against him. My impression of the way JKR wrote Snape saying "I, the Half Blood Prince!" reinforces the idea that he thought very highly of himself, imo.

The words used by Snape reminded me of someone speaking in a Greek tragedy - except that in one of those stories, a king would have been speaking instead of a high school professor. To me, it was boasting pure and simple and I feel it was indicative of Snape's character because he always came across to me as being on a huge ego trip.

but he allowed Harry to get away with the lie; he did not mind Harry having it IMO.

When Harry casts Sectumsempra, Snape asks Harry to bring all his books. I don't think he'd have let Harry keep the book if he found it in Harry's bag. But he didn't find it because Harry had switched his book with that of "Roonil Wazlib". :lol:
Snape then calls him the apt epithets "liar" and "cheat" and gives him detention.

I also doubt that Snape wanted Harry to have his book because of the way he behaves toward similar things. Although we've got tons of internal commentary from Harry about Snape being unfair and all that, he isn't very unfair when it comes to grades, nor is he inclined to give Harry an advantage over other students. Harry's possession of the book both gives him higher grades and an unfair advantage he didn't work for.

It is interesting to speculate just what Snape would have done. I think both options are possible; one like you said Iggy, that Snape would take away the book, but another could also be possible; Snape might have been very scathing and said a lot more about suddenly improved grades, lying, cheating and the like and still might have allowed Harry to keep the book IMO.

I lean very slightly towards the second despite agreeing with you on your post because Snape accepted the blatant lie of Roonil Wazlib, when he read Harry's thoughts about what Harry had done with the book and still let it be. He could have very easily demanded Harry take him to where he kept the book, because he knew at that point Harry had lied, and Harry would not be able to disagree, because he too would have known that Snape saw everything IMO.

posted by ignisia
he isn't unfair when it comes to grades, nor is he inclined to give Harry an advantage over other students. Harry's possession of the book both gives him higher grades and an unfair advantage he didn't work for.

:tu:

My impression of the way JKR wrote Snape saying "I, the Half Blood Prince!" reinforces the idea that he thought very highly of himself, imo.
But that is also the reveal of the title character of a highly anticipated book... something that was revealed to us a full year before the release of the book, and something that was highly debated on these forums. Like you said on the Editorials thread... I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Within story, Snape could claim he invented the spells and potions corrections Harry has been using all year. But 1) this would actually take longer to say than "I, the Half-Blood Prince!", and 2) Snape's knowledge of that nickname corroborates his claim in a way nothing short of mentioning specific potions improvements Harry might remember, would.

...he isn't very unfair when it comes to grades, nor is he inclined to give Harry an advantage over other students. Harry's possession of the book both gives him higher grades and an unfair advantage he didn't work for.
I agree that, in HBP, Snape was merciful with Harry and the Half-Blood Prince's book. However, in general, I believe Snape was unfair with grades.

In PoA he gave Harry a zero for Harry not being able to get his Confusing Concoction to thicken, as well as incorrectly criticizing some of the work of Lupin's Defense Against the Dark Arts class ("Very poorly explained... That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia... Professor Lupin gave this eight out of ten? I wouldn't have given it three...").

In OotP, he gave Harry a zero for forgetting one ingredient, while Neville's and Goyle's potions were equally bad. He also knocks Harry's potion off his desk, warranting Harry another zero.

IIn OotP, he gave Harry a zero for forgetting one ingredient, while Neville's and Goyle's potions were equally bad. He also knocks Harry's potion off his desk, warranting Harry another zero.

We do not know what grades Neville and Goyle received, do we?

We also do not know how the potion fell in the other scene you reference, this is not stated in the text, as Harry's back is turned when it happens. I am not inclined to believe Snape did it, because Snape is smart enough to know Harry could go back and fill a second flask for him to grade. (I don't think anyone could guess that Hermione would decide to help Harry out by Vanishing what was left in his cauldron).

(I don't think anyone could guess that Hermione would decide to help Harry out by Vanishing what was left in his cauldron).
Well, Snape was in a position to see Hermione when she did vanish it. But don't see what the point of the scene would be if Snape hadn't dropped the flask deliberately. It makes more sense that Snape was still furious over Harry intruding in the Pensieve. That's why he dropped the flask. It showed us he was still angry. And that helped us understand how much emotion Snape had invested in SWM.

I agree with Zara and would like to point out that Goyle is another one of those kids with families Snape needs to keep tabs on.

However, I agree with MrSleepyHead on the Lupin issue. Correct or not, Snape should not have criticised Lupin's organization in front of the students when Dumbledore is proved to have been an adequate sounding board and open ear, as we see in TPT when he complains about Harry in front of Dumbledore. It's illogical, IMO, to complain about another teacher's organization in front of the students when they can't exactly do anything.

I agree with Zara and would like to point out that Goyle is another one of those kids with families Snape needs to keep tabs on.

However, I agree with MrSleepyHead on the Lupin issue. Correct or not, Snape should not have criticised Lupin's organization in front of the students when Dumbledore is proved to have been an adequate sounding board and open ear, as we see in TPT when he complains about Harry in front of Dumbledore. It's illogical, IMO, to complain about another teacher's organization in front of the students when they can't exactly do anything.

However, what it does do is help perpetuate the idea (whether factual or not) that he is bitter about having not gained the DADA position again.

But that is also the reveal of the title character of a highly anticipated book... something that was revealed to us a full year before the release of the book, and something that was highly debated on these forums. Like you said on the Editorials thread... I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

One man's molehill is another man's mountain - something else I said over there. :lol:.

Nonetheless, JKR wrote it in the way she did and it is a very boastful and arrogant way of speaking, imo. She could have had him just say he was the owner of the book and the name referred to him rather than speaking in those terms. She also added him saying that Harry 'dared' use his spells, like his filthy father, which further attests to his superiority complex, imo.

Well, we come from two entirely different mindsets. You see what you see and I see what I see. A long, drawn-out response just wouldn't be as effective in the reveal of Snape being the Half-Blood Prince, imo. And I hope you don't mind that I 'dared' use the phrase you mentioned elsewhere.

Well, we come from two entirely different mindsets. You see what you see and I see what I see. A long, drawn-out response just wouldn't be as effective in the reveal of Snape being the Half-Blood Prince, imo.

Well I wasn't thinking of a long drawn out response. I was solely speaking of the manner in which JKR had Snape phrase it together with his other statements regarding Harry and his dad and how that reflected on his character in my judgment. I feel it could have been put concisely without making Snape seem boastful and arrogant, but because it came across that way to me, I assume it was written to read that way precisely to help me better understand Snape's character.

And I hope you don't mind that I 'dared' use the phrase you mentioned elsewhere.

:lol: Of course not; everyone is free to call up any previous statement I have made. I appreciate the opportunity to explain if there is confusion or to indicate that I have had a change of heart on some issue and why. :tu:

A quick correction: A "superiority complex" does not actually come from feelings of superiority, as I think has been implied.
And if it did, that would make absolutely no sense in the context of Snape. I think it's pretty clear that much of his behavior comes from feelings of inferiority and insecurity. He did, after all, spend many of his formative years being treated as though he were inferior. That is not to say that he has an inferiority complex (in fact, the true definition of a superiority complex is more applicable, although not 100% so) but he is no James Potter. I do not believe that in his heart of hearts and mind of minds he truly thinks he is better than everyone else.

IMO, when Snape used the word "dare", I think that was more of a response to a perceived personal affront than a declaration of his superiority over Harry. For example, if someone were to say something sexist in front of me, as a woman, I would very likely respond with "How dare you say that!".
Similarly, I believe that Snape, as the inventor of those spells, would find Harry's use of them against him far more personal than when Harry used other spells against him. Especially when it invokes memories of Harry's father.

It is only after Harry tries to cast Sectumsempra that he can finally see Snape's face. I think that was deliberate. JKR wanted us to see how angry that made him.

Well, we come from two entirely different mindsets. You see what you see and I see what I see. A long, drawn-out response just wouldn't be as effective in the reveal of Snape being the Half-Blood Prince, imo. And I hope you don't mind that I 'dared' use the phrase you mentioned elsewhere.I actually agree. The way it was revealed, and then with the short scene afterwards where Hermione told Harry about Snape's parents, was a good way to reveal it. It was briefer than I had expected, but good anyways. :D

definition of a superiority complex is more applicable, although not 100% so) but he is no James Potter.

I respect this is your opinion, but I found it very ironic that Snape called Harry and James arrogant because he was one of the most arrogant characters in canon to me. James actually considered all people equal, despite their bloodlines, whereas Snape saw a difference in this regard, holding Muggles and Muggleborns as inferior based on his actions and words, imo. That included Lily in my judgment. Snape appeared to have emotions for her despite of her birthright, whereas others, including James had no issue with this.

It is up to each reader to decide which values they prefer; for me, I preferred Harry and James values over Snape's and Draco's based on their dark arts related proclivities. While I think James and Harry were arrogant in ways (James moreso), Snape was as well, although I would agree it likely arose from different attributes among them. Snape was vulnerable and insecure according to JKR, his reaction to that, imo, was to be someone impressive and powerful and in my judgment, he was willing to strive for that goal using any means necessary (hence becoming a Death Eater). Whereas Harry and his father were more self confident and at times, self righteous, and I think it arose from that attribute for them. To me, father and son were more limited in the means they would use to achieve their ends - which in all honesty I cannot say that canon indicates what any overriding ends might have been for them (like being powerful or popular or well liked or whatever desire.) But I do feel that their young lives on into young adulthood took a more normal route than Snape's, due to the decisions he made and his character as evolved. I speak in terms of youthful flaws that are eliminated or lessened through a natural course of maturity and growing up. Granted, by becoming a DE, Snape placed himself in a position to make his life a lot more difficult in that respect, imo.

I do not believe that in his heart of hearts and mind of minds he truly thinks he is better than everyone else.

I am not sure what you mean by this, so I cannot agree or disagree. I feel that Snape did believe he was superior to those of lesser blood right when he was young. I also feel he believed himself superior when it came to figuring the best ways and means of going about things (i.e., becoming a Death Eater and also relative to his potions book and the nickname he gave himself.) Snape appeared to grasp at whatever power was available to him when he was young, imo, like the self-naming to elevate his status in his head.

I believe that he continued to grasp at it throughout his life in various ways as he was written, imo, to always show smugness when recognized (like by the Minister of Magic) and use any power that came his way (his personal decision to have Sirius and Lupin kissed based on his personal evaluation without allowing them to be heard - his behaving in a manner that abused his position of authority as a professor, imo, and his taking a superior stance with his peers like Tonks despite the hypocrital undertones of his evaluations, imo.) This was further supported, imo, by his becoming angry at the idea that Dumbledore might be sharing information with Harry that he was not privy to.

IMO, when Snape used the word "dare", I think that was more of a response to a perceived personal affront than a declaration of his superiority over Harry. For example, if someone were to say something sexist in front of me, as a woman, I would very likely respond with "How dare you say that!".
Similarly, I believe that Snape, as the inventor of those spells, would find Harry's use of them against him far more personal than when Harry used other spells against him. Especially when it invokes memories of Harry's father.

I respect your view; but even under that interpretation, it begs the question of why he would be affronted. Some people would be honored that others used their spells. That Snape's spells were of torture and humiliation would seem to be the distinction - daring to use such spells against him is an affront, in my opinion, because they could harm or embarrass him and he alone holds the right to harm and embarass others, being superior in having invented them. By inference, he was saying that those who would try to use them against him are inferior and have no right to do so, in my judgment.

In final support, I don't think Snape thought of himself as filthy, so calling him that was a direct statement of his feeling James was inferior (and Harry as well as he is like his father in all of the negative ways Snape has enumerated to that point in the series - in Snape's view - as his statements are always 'just like your father' - and here, Harry is doing the same action his father did, using a spell against him).

So that is what my analysis of the relevant canon with respect to my interpretation of Snape's character in this regard.

I am not sure what you mean by this, so I cannot agree or disagree. I feel that Snape did believe he was superior to those of lesser blood right when he was young. I also feel he believed himself superior when it came to figuring the best ways and means of going about things (i.e., becoming a Death Eater and also relative to his potions book and the nickname he gave himself.) Snape appeared to grasp at whatever power was available to him when he was young, imo, like the self-naming to elevate his status in his head.

I think Snape hated Muggles due to his experience with his father. And I think he may have adopted some of the views of the Slytherins to fit in and gotten used to the habit of saying "Mudblood"...and when he already hated Muggles, this wouldn't have been too difficult.

And in the world of Slytherin, he knew he's be considered superior to someone like Lily. But Lily was also the person he admired and loved most out of anyone....Even if you see his love as obsessive and unhealthy, why would he be obsessed with someone he thought to be inferior?

Yes, Lily would've had to be different from all other muggle-borns in his eyes...but Snape was intelligent enough to know that if Lily was such a wonderful person, then all muggle-borns couldn't be bad because obviously, that rule was broken by Lily.


I respect your view; but even under that interpretation, it begs the question of why he would be affronted. Some people would be honored that others used their spells. That Snape's spells were of torture and humiliation would seem to be the distinction - daring to use such spells against him is an affront, in my opinion, because they could harm or embarrass him and he alone holds the right to harm and embarass others, being superior in having invented them. By inference, he was saying that those who would try to use them against him are inferior and have no right to do so, in my judgment.

But many curses and hexes are humiliating or harming, even if they are not dark magic. As an example, I don't think Fred and George would've liked if someone used certain inventions of theirs against them, you know? But they don't believe they're the only ones with the right to use them against others. And I think it's the same with Snape....I believe he must've shared some of his spells with the Slytherins to impress them, which would've been how they got out and the Marauders heard of Levicorpus. I bet Snape would've been really proud to see the other Slytherins using his spells, nasty however they were...because that showed him his work was appreciated. But that doesn't mean he thought no one had a right to use them. The Death Eaters, for example, were using Levicorpus at the World Cup according to Hermione. This was likely part of Snape's vision when he was a budding Death Eater.

But having the Marauders using the spells to publicly humiliate him, their creator, is way different. Because they're backfiring on him. And having Harry use the same spells against him, attempting to stop him when he needs to escape with the Death Eaters, is not only annoying, but it reminds him of these humiliating instances in his life. And he feels he's better than Harry because, in this case, he is: why should he be impressed or respectful of Harry's use of these spells against him when Harry doesn't even understand he's using them against the man who invented them? In this case, Snape is by default superior: Harry may have the ability to use the spells, but Snape invented them, which took a lot more talent. So when he's being attacked, how can he not feel the urge to rub that in a little bit? At the very least, he has a right to inform Harry, who is completely unaware of this fact.

In final support, I don't think Snape thought of himself as filthy, so calling him that was a direct statement of his feeling James was inferior (and Harry as well as he is like his father in all of the negative ways Snape has enumerated to that point in the series - in Snape's view - as his statements are always 'just like your father' - and here, Harry is doing the same action his father did, using a spell against him).

So that is what my analysis of the relevant canon with respect to my interpretation of Snape's character in this regard.

But he may have thought of himself as "filthy"...or at least felt self-loathing to some extent. He hated that he couldn't be good enough for Lily and hated that he helped lead to her death, and I also think he hated himself for becoming a Death Eater...partly because it turned Lily away from him, but also because I think that he did come to accept it as generally wrong, even if Lily was the reason he changed.

So, Snape definitely doesn't believe James is full of flaws while he is perfect. But certain qualities of James'...the bullying, for example, was obviously not something Snape could respect, being on the receiving end. And Snape felt it was cowardly to attack four-on-one. But having negative opinions of qualities expressed by others doesn't automatically make you feel generally super superior.

Besides, deep down Snape knows that in the one way that counts to him, James really was "superior"....He's the one who won Lily's heart in the end. So I just can't accept that Snape was full of himself and considered himself entirely above James.

I think Snape hated Muggles due to his experience with his father. And I think he may have adopted some of the views of the Slytherins to fit in and gotten used to the habit of saying "Mudblood"...and when he already hated Muggles, this wouldn't have been too difficult.

Well I wasn't discussing the reason why he felt suprerior, but I respect your view. My only point was that he felt that way.

And in the world of Slytherin, he knew he's be considered superior to someone like Lily. But Lily was also the person he admired and loved most out of anyone....Even if you see his love as obsessive and unhealthy, why would he be obsessed with someone he thought to be inferior?

I feel it was because Snape had emotions for Lily despite the fact that she was inferior to him. I feel he believed that she was a 'mudblood', something less than a pureblood or halfblood. I think his feelings were engendered because she was pretty, nice and quite talented in magic. But to me it was clear that he categorized her at some level as a Mudblood or he would have never called her one. If he truly, deeply did not ever even consider her birthright, it wouldn't have occurred to him to call her that. Even if it was because his housemates called her one - that would have brought it to his attention and thereafter, on some level he related to it and agreed, imo.

Note that JKR wrote Snape's mind to work in a special way. He had been friends with Lily for some 5 years or so and still believed that she would be impressed by him becoming a Death Eater. So incompatible ideas worked for Snape in that regard, imo.

Yes, Lily would've had to be different from all other muggle-borns in his eyes...but Snape was intelligent enough to know that if Lily was such a wonderful person, then all muggle-borns couldn't be bad because obviously, that rule was broken by Lily.

To me, intelligence (academic) has nothing to do with it; I feel it is more a "common sense" issue. What you have stated makes perfect sense, but Snape, according to JKR, didn't see things that way. He could think of Lily as a mudblood (hence him calling her one) and at the same time have emotions for her. James was in the scene, but he will confused the point I want to make since there is a tendency to pit he and Snape against one another, but James was like Ron in this regard, so I will use Ron as an example. Ron never "slipped" and called Hermione a "mudblood", no matter how angry he was at her or how overwrought he was emotionally. Even when he was raging with jealousy because he thought she preferred Harry (like at the camp when she stayed despite his leaving) he never made such a "slip" (nor did Harry ever slip and call Hermione a Mudblood, btw). I feel that is because he truly did not consider her one. It was simply outside of his mindset to ever do so because he had not internalized the notion. In that way, James and Ron (and Harry) were the opposite of Snape who had internalized the idea and extended it to Lily on at least some level, imo.

But many curses and hexes are humiliating or harming, even if they are not dark magic. As an example, I don't think Fred and George would've liked if someone used certain inventions of theirs against them, you know? But they don't believe they're the only ones with the right to use them against others.

I agree, and they never stared anyone down, arrogantly stated they were the inventors and declared that the person had "dared" to use their own inventions against them. Nor did they call anyone filthy for doing so. That is the distinction I am making.

And I think it's the same with Snape....I believe he must've shared some of his spells with the Slytherins to impress them, which would've been how they got out and the Marauders heard of Levicorpus. I bet Snape would've been really proud to see the other Slytherins using his spells, nasty however they were...because that showed him his work was appreciated. But that doesn't mean he thought no one had a right to use them. The Death Eaters, for example, were using Levicorpus at the World Cup according to Hermione. This was likely part of Snape's vision when he was a budding Death Eater.

But they didn't use them against Snape. Nor, to my belief, did Snape feel his friends were inferior to him.

And he feels he's better than Harry because, in this case, he is: why should he be impressed or respectful of Harry's use of these spells against him when Harry doesn't even understand he's using them against the man who invented them? In this case, Snape is by default superior: Harry may have the ability to use the spells, but Snape invented them, which took a lot more talent. So when he's being attacked, how can he not feel the urge to rub that in a little bit?

I guess our agreeing to disagree on this point would be best. :whistle:

At the very least, he has a right to inform Harry, who is completely unaware of this fact.

Well I think JKR could have written it in such a manner that Snape informed Harry without seeming boastful and arrogant (imo). That was my only point.

So, Snape definitely doesn't believe James is full of flaws while he is perfect. But certain qualities of James'...the bullying, for example, was obviously not something Snape could respect, being on the receiving end. And Snape felt it was cowardly to attack four-on-one. But having negative opinions of qualities expressed by others doesn't automatically make you feel generally super superior. Besides, deep down Snape knows that in the one way that counts to him, James really was "superior"....He's the one who won Lily's heart in the end. So I just can't accept that Snape was full of himself and considered himself entirely above James.

Well those things don't make one 'superior' in my view. Some people have talents others don't, like James was better at Quidditch, Snape was better at the dark arts. And love is the same; JKR decided James and Lily were the love of one another's lives, but that does not make James superior, that is just compatiblity between James and Lily based on who they were as opposed to Snape being incompatible with her based on who he was in relation to who she was, imo.

However, as an individual, on the whole, I feel Snape did feel that James and Harry were beneath him, for whatever reason. I think that scene in HBP was indicative of that. I think the scene where he rips the photo and tosses the depiction of father and son onto the floor under the dresser is another indication of this. I feel openly belittling the father (who he helped to kill) before the orphan son is another indication of this. In my judgment, it was a combination of lack of respect and loathing.

In all the time that I've spent reading the books, Snape's open bitterness towards James in front of Harry was the one thing about his character that left a really bad impression on me (along with his bullying of Neville and belittling of Hermione, those were just unfair IMO).

I come from a place where insulting a person's family is the worst kind of insult imaginable (and I see that it's no different in Harry's world, as witnessed by Harry's reaction to Malfoy's calling Lily names at the Quidditch game in OotP), and for Snape to say what he did in PoA to the orphaned child of the person he was calling a big-headed strutter, was truly horrible of him IMO- even if he and Harry got off on the wrong foot, Snape was still, as a teacher, in a position of power over Harry and that kind of behaviour was what made me truly dislike him at first. I can understand if he had to be nasty to Harry in class to keep up appearances for the Voldemort supporters, but the comments about James were generally, as far as I can remember, made in private between the two of them and really, it wasn't necessary to say such things at all IMO.
The explanation of his motives that came in DH was enlightening and saddening (and it really did redeem a lot of what he did), and it doesn't make me like his early behaviour towards the child Harry, any more.

Well I wasn't discussing the reason why he felt suprerior, but I respect your view. My only point was that he felt that way.

I feel it was because Snape had emotions for Lily despite the fact that she was inferior to him. I feel he believed that she was a 'mudblood', something less than a pureblood or halfblood. I think his feelings were engendered because she was pretty, nice and quite talented in magic. But to me it was clear that he categorized her at some level as a Mudblood or he would have never called her one. If he truly, deeply did not ever even consider her birthright, it wouldn't have occurred to him to call her that. Even if it was because his housemates called her one - that would have brought it to his attention and thereafter, on some level he related to it and agreed, imo.

Note that JKR wrote Snape's mind to work in a special way. He had been friends with Lily for some 5 years or so and still believed that she would be impressed by him becoming a Death Eater. So incompatible ideas worked for Snape in that regard, imo.

To me, intelligence (academic) has nothing to do with it; I feel it is more a "common sense" issue. What you have stated makes perfect sense, but Snape, according to JKR, didn't see things that way. He could think of Lily as a mudblood (hence him calling her one) and at the same time have emotions for her. James was in the scene, but he will confused the point I want to make since there is a tendency to pit he and Snape against one another, but James was like Ron in this regard, so I will use Ron as an example. Ron never "slipped" and called Hermione a "mudblood", no matter how angry he was at her or how overwrought he was emotionally. Even when he was raging with jealousy because he thought she preferred Harry (like at the camp when she stayed despite his leaving) he never made such a "slip" (nor did Harry ever slip and call Hermione a Mudblood, btw). I feel that is because he truly did not consider her one. It was simply outside of his mindset to ever do so because he had not internalized the notion. In that way, James and Ron (and Harry) were the opposite of Snape who had internalized the idea and extended it to Lily on at least some level, imo.

That's all true, but as you said yourself, Snape may have adopted his views because he was surrounded by them in Slytherin. I know you disagree, but I do not think he had a real prejudice against muggle-borns anyway, just that he became used to saying "mudblood." But either way, he picked it up from being in Slytherin....Ron wasn't surrounded by anything like that, and his father loved Muggles, whereas Snape's father gave him a bad idea of Muggles. The situations were just so different. For Ron to call Hermione a Mudblood just wouldn't have made sense based on his negative experiences with someone like Draco who used that word...but Snape's own Housemates used it.

I do agree that Snape did kind of doublethink in terms of loving Lily yet joining an anti-Muggleborn organization to impress her. So he did kind of think he was superior...but it's canceled out by the fact that he feels more inferior. He wants to join the Death Eaters, who believe Lily is inferior: but in his twisted perception, he believes he must do this to impress her because she is a superior person, and if he's not good enough for her, he is inferior to someone like James. Wow, that's probably really confusing-sounding. :lol:

I agree, and they never stared anyone down, arrogantly stated they were the inventors and declared that the person had "dared" to use their own inventions against them. Nor did they call anyone filthy for doing so. That is the distinction I am making.

But I don't think we've seen any incidences in which someone uses their inventions against them to humiliate them. And if that did happen, I don't think a "how dare you?" would really be out of place.

But they didn't use them against Snape. Nor, to my belief, did Snape feel his friends were inferior to him.

But if they had, wouldn't he have thought "how dare they"? Because he's giving them brilliant spells, and they'd be using them against him. Whether he thinks they're superior or inferior as human beings doesn't really change his reaction IMO. From either the Marauders or fellow Slytherins, I don't think attacks using his own creations would be appreciated.

That's all true, but as you said yourself, Snape may have adopted his views because he was surrounded by them in Slytherin.

No, that is not what I meant by what I said. I meant that to me, Snape clearly already held prejudice against muggles prior to stepping foot in Hogwarts. I doubt he walked into the school and immediately called someone a Mudblood, so it is likely he heard some of those already at the school use the term. He may have heard it used while growing up as well. But whenever he first heard it, it started him on the road to internalizing it for himself. That was not something that others caused him to do, nor did they cause him to start using the term himself. Snape made those decisions on his own, imo.

I know you disagree, but I do not think he had a real prejudice against muggle-borns anyway, just that he became used to saying "mudblood." But either way, he picked it up from being in Slytherin....Ron wasn't surrounded by anything like that, and his father loved Muggles, whereas Snape's father gave him a bad idea of Muggles. The situations were just so different. For Ron to call Hermione a Mudblood just wouldn't have made sense based on his negative experiences with someone like Draco who used that word...but Snape's own Housemates used it.

Right; I do disagree with your first assertion. But the last part is what I was saying; Snape internalized it and Ron did not - for whatever reason - so Snape used it because inside he did see a distinction - again, for whatever reason.

I do agree that Snape did kind of doublethink in terms of loving Lily yet joining an anti-Muggleborn organization to impress her. So he did kind of think he was superior...but it's canceled out by the fact that he feels more inferior. He wants to join the Death Eaters, who believe Lily is inferior: but in his twisted perception, he believes he must do this to impress her because she is a superior person, and if he's not good enough for her, he is inferior to someone like James. Wow, that's probably really confusing-sounding. :lol:

:rotfl:, yeah it was a bit hard to keep up with what you were saying. :lol:. If your point was that he felt inferior in ways and superior in other ways, I could agree with that. We may differ on the things about which he felt himself superior though.

But I don't think we've seen any incidences in which someone uses their inventions against them to humiliate them. And if that did happen, I don't think a "how dare you?" would really be out of place.

I would have to disagree. I couldn't see the twins saying that at all and if they did, I would think it out of place. They seemed to be very good natured about pranks in general, so I feel they would just laugh at themselves. Now if an enemy used one of their pranks on them, I don't think they would take the attitutde of "how dare you" - rather they would just be angry that an enemy had attacked them period - independent of whether they'd used one of their inventions or not.

But if they had, wouldn't he have thought "how dare they"? Because he's giving them brilliant spells, and they'd be using them against him. Whether he thinks they're superior or inferior as human beings doesn't really change his reaction IMO. From either the Marauders or fellow Slytherins, I don't think attacks using his own creations would be appreciated.

I doubt Snape would think 'how dare you' if his friend lifted him up with levicorpus. And it isn't that Snape wouldn't be angry at being lifted up by James or Harry - it is his attitude beyond the anger - to me he was additionally affronted as if inferior beings had dared use his own spells against him.

I meant that to me, Snape clearly already held prejudice against muggles prior to stepping foot in Hogwarts. I doubt he walked into the school and immediately called someone a Mudblood, so it is likely he heard some of those already at the school use the term. He may have heard it used while growing up as well. But whenever he first heard it, it started him on the road to internalizing it for himself. That was not something that others caused him to do, nor did they cause him to start using the term himself. Snape made those decisions on his own, imo.

I know that this might come as a shock to you. But I agree entirely with what you've just said, with one tiny exception to the rule which throws the focus all out of balance. (But of course!:D). Snape clearly did show plenty of prejudice to muggles before he joined Hogwarts School. There can simply be no doubt about that. The fact that as a young boy he met and grew to like Lily Evans does not add to his atonement in this manner, as he clearly treated her sister Petunia badly, and was heard to call Lily herself a "Mudblood" farther down the line.

However. Internalization as a process, which I do agree was what happened here, was quite feasibly not entirely to do with Severus Snape deciding it on his onesies. Rather, it was his background and depreciating view of the world as granted him, which interrupted his development and caused this to occur. Basically, Snape grew up with this set of values and he grew to accept them. Youth is a time of acceptance and argument, and he accepted these values, likely because they were the only ones on display in his arena of human interactions. Until, that is, he met Lily Evans. She was the one thing that could have caused him to change his set of values, which he didn't so. Psychologically, this makes great sense. He was mortified and humiliated in front of her, by the boy he detested most in the world, James Potter. He knew that they were vying for her attentions, and so he lashed out in anger at her, simply due to his own lack of confidence and his feelings of insignificance in her life. He blamed the wrong person. It's justified in a sense, but in another not at all. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. We're all flawed. But he just picked the wrong girl, wrong day, wrong crowd, wrong word. Unlucky combination.

Right; I do disagree with your first assertion. But the last part is what I was saying; Snape internalized it and Ron did not - for whatever reason - so Snape used it because inside he did see a distinction - again, for whatever reason.

Yes, Snape definitely saw the distinction, and he did choose to become a very dark and shady character, this we agree on. He landed himself in that mess, but I must argue that he did this with a little bit of help. But again, internalization does not just happen. Ron didn't do it because Ron was never presented with those thoughts to internalize them.

If your point was that he felt inferior in ways and superior in other ways, I could agree with that. We may differ on the things about which he felt himself superior though.

It's not entirely what her point was. She's saying that though Snape joined an organisation that prejudiced Lily to try to feel more powerful. All along he had felt inferior to her. He needed to join to something to make himself look powerful, he just chose something very crude. This is all likely due to his dark thoughts and his leanings toward the dark side anyway, which all makes sense. Her point is, that he did something very silly out of desperation to impress. He just didn't think it through. Perhaps he just never wanted to.

Now if an enemy used one of their pranks on them, I don't think they would take the attitutde of "how dare you" - rather they would just be angry that an enemy had attacked them period - independent of whether they'd used one of their inventions or not.

I almost entirely agree with you, I just want to add that sometimes, something you've created being turned on you to humiliate you when really it was made to give you pride is sort of... less than attractive, and bound to anger you more than a normal attack. It lowers confidence and self esteem, so I see why he was so very upset about it, and not just plain riled.

To me he was additionally affronted as if inferior beings had dared use his own spells against him.

I agree with this part, but again I must add. He was doubly affronted because Lily was there when they did it. There can be no doubt but that his feelings for her guided his life, even in it's earlier inept sections.

In the long term, I would have to say that he was one of the most flawed characters in the entire series, and that he certainly had a lot to atone for. However, I do believe he atoned for it, almost in its entirety, because I know that it's one life I would not like to lead. Not only was he isolated from her, but that wound never healed because he was isolated from everybody else too. It's a loneliness I couldn't bear at all. Where I consider that he didn't atone for it entirely, I have replaced that feeling with pity.

Let me explain why. In the last few moments of the book, Harry Potter reaches out to his son and says "You were named for two Headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin, and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

Harry was able to forgive, and he was able to ally his feelings of earlier hatred and grief at Severus Snape into a productive, positive and very permanent piece of his life. This is something Snape, for all of his eventual redemptive storylines and plots, was distinctly unable to do. It's a trait I cannot admire, and it makes him flawed irrelevant of what he otherwise achieved. It is, however, ironically, this flaw that makes him one of the most human and realistic characters in the book. And it is for that reason that I genuinely appreciate him, scar tissue and all.

However. Internalization as a process, which I do agree was what happened here, was quite feasibly not entirely to do with Severus Snape deciding it on his onesies. Rather, it was his background and depreciating view of the world as granted him, which interrupted his development and caused this to occur. Basically, Snape grew up with this set of values and he grew to accept them. Youth is a time of acceptance and argument, and he accepted these values, likely because they were the only ones on display in his arena of human interactions. Until, that is, he met Lily Evans. She was the one thing that could have caused him to change his set of values, which he didn't so.

You have just described what I meant by internalization, so we agree. Perhaps that is not the label you would use for it, so whatever you would call it, we mean the same thing. :lol:.

Psychologically, this makes great sense. He was mortified and humiliated in front of her, by the boy he detested most in the world, James Potter. He knew that they were vying for her attentions, and so he lashed out in anger at her, simply due to his own lack of confidence and his feelings of insignificance in her life. He blamed the wrong person. It's justified in a sense, but in another not at all. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. We're all flawed. But he just picked the wrong girl, wrong day, wrong crowd, wrong word. Unlucky combination.

I would have to respectfully disagree that he blamed the wrong person. In my opinion, he meant to blame Lily entirely. Here's why: First, Lily was defending him the entire time. Second, James provoked his statement by saying 'you should be glad Evans is here' (paraphrase). At that point, I assume you feel Snape became humiliated and angry (as stated in the book) because James, also vying for her attentions, had one upped him (making him feel inferior and without confidence by saying he needed help from a girl) in front of her (tell me if I misunderstood you). However, I don't think that was why Snape lashed out at Lily at all.

If Snape had only said "I don't need help from a girl" - then I would agree. But he didn't, he was aiming to hurt Lily - he absolutely knew it would hurt her to be called a filthy little Mudblood, imo. It does not make sense to me that Snape's only reasons for wanting to hurt Lily was because he felt a lack of confidence and insignificant in her life - lashing out at her would not help him out in that regard at all.

Now my view is very dependent on my interpretation of the whole scene, so if you disagree with it, then I understand you would search for something else, so I respect your view. But here is my analysis:

Snape stood their fuming mad while Lily, in the midst of defending him, starts questioning James in a familiar manner. I feel Snape believed Lily might like James in return because in the scene before (DH), he was "walking on air" when she called him an arrogant toerag when he mentioned James fancied her. So he see's her ask James why he is fighting with Snape - and then she knows James is trying to be funny with his answer. Now to you and me, that is perhaps common sense - obviously there is more to James' reason than "Snape exists" - otherwise he'd hate everyone, including his best mates who also "exist" :lol:. But imagine Snape listening in and she shows understanding of James' character and that would be meaningless, except that he also believes that she might like him. The two go on talking and James says 'he'll leave Snape alone if she'll go out with him' - a clear bribe, but instead of replying that bribing her under the circumstances is despicable (which would include Snape in her response indirectly), Lily replies 'I'd rather date the giant squid' which is a wholly personal opinion with no regard for Snape at all. Again, to you and me, she is just being rude to James. But from Snape's POV, she is ignoring Snape altogether and chatting with James.

Now note in all of this, Lily has not said one word to Snape (who has suffered all the hexing so far), nor does she speak one word to Sirius, who has been hexing as much as James. I repeat, for you and I reading, she might have just spoken to James arbitrarily, but from Snape's POV, Lily is speaking to James and ignoring everyone else. It makes absolutely no difference what they are talking about because they are suddenly having this little private interchange and ignoring everyone else around them (Snape's POV.)

Snape's fury builds to unknown heights at this point, and he is furious with James, but Lily also, because both took part in this; James is flirting and Lily is participating in this private little moment. Now deep down, Snape was intuitive enough to get the feeling Lily liked James and he was correct. When told in interview that Lily hated James by the interviewer, JKR responded:

"did she? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]"

So to me, that is what caused Snape's fury at both parties involved. His next move was against James, who retaliated. Lily demands he be put down, James complies and makes the provocative statement. I feel Snape disagrees with James. Imo, he doesn't feel lucky at all that Lily is there - because James is there also. I feel He feels betrayed by Lily for her earlier behavior and ignoring him (which hurt). Also, he is utterly enraged that in truth, it was because Lily was there that James released him (supporting Snape's view that James fancies her - and worse, Lily is behaving like she might like him too) Now he is steaming with anger - which he might have contained, except that James brought her to the forefront of his attention, and all of his anger at her explodes (also fueled by the humiliation and anger Snape feels at being lifted by his own spell by the "filthy James" - as mentioned in HBP). But the humiliation takes second place to Lily ignoring him and behaving as if he indeed does not "exist" - also humiliating. That is why I feel Snape lashed out at her, wishing to hurt and humiliate her as he felt she had hurt and humiliate him.

So that is how I interpret that scene and why I do not agree that Snape lashed out at the wrong person. I feel he lashed out at exactly who he meant to lash out at: Lily, 'the betrayer' Evans. :lol:.

Now I don't feel that I can conclude Lily would see it the way Snape did (or even James), but I do understand how and why Snape would see it the way he did, per my interpretation.

It's not entirely what her point was. She's saying that though Snape joined an organisation that prejudiced Lily to try to feel more powerful. All along he had felt inferior to her. He needed to join to something to make himself look powerful, he just chose something very crude. This is all likely due to his dark thoughts and his leanings toward the dark side anyway, which all makes sense. Her point is, that he did something very silly out of desperation to impress. He just didn't think it through. Perhaps he just never wanted to.

I don't know if 'silly' is the word I would use to describe Snape's choice to join up with the Death Eaters. But if you mean he was thinking in a silly manner to believe Lily would be impressed by him doing so, I would agree. Although I think a better word would be illogical.

I agree with this part, but again I must add. He was doubly affronted because Lily was there when they did it. There can be no doubt but that his feelings for her guided his life, even in it's earlier inept sections.

However, Lily wasn't present when Snape was dealing with Harry in HBP, so I am not sure I follow you...

Let me explain why. In the last few moments of the book, Harry Potter reaches out to his son and says "You were named for two Headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin, and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

Harry was able to forgive, and he was able to ally his feelings of earlier hatred and grief at Severus Snape into a productive, positive and very permanent piece of his life. This is something Snape, for all of his eventual redemptive storylines and plots, was distinctly unable to do. It's a trait I cannot admire, and it makes him flawed irrelevant of what he otherwise achieved. It is, however, ironically, this flaw that makes him one of the most human and realistic characters in the book. And it is for that reason that I genuinely appreciate him, scar tissue and all.

Harry is a saint and I respect your view that it is an admirable way to feel and thus you can find pity as a result. However, I am not Harry Potter and while I think it was good for him to forgive for his own sake and sanity, I cannot forgive on his behalf - I suppose because I am far from being a saint. :lol:.

You have just described what I meant by internalization, so we agree. Perhaps that is not the label you would use for it, so whatever you would call it, we mean the same thing. :lol:.

Yes, we agree on what it is, but you had not clarified why, as such, it is. I provided the background info there, so we could found it in something as opposed saying it just occurred for no reason. We do, however, agree on the dictionary definition, which spells hope! ;)

Now my view is very dependent on my interpretation of the whole scene, so if you disagree with it, then I understand you would search for something else, so I respect your view.

Apologies for not quoting the entire thing, it's more to save space than anything else. :lol: However, we do agree that this is what happened. I agree with you wholeheartedly, Snape meant to hurt her as much as he could. Frankly, I empathise with that. I know that feeling of blind, absolute rage. Everybody does, so I cannot possibly disagree with you in this instance. Nor did I qualify what I meant with what you have just put in front of me, and with which I agree. Let me explain more, without digressing too much.

I agree with everything you say about Severus Snape, and I look further back, into what causes the emotional responses inside his head. It's not just as simple as saying he wanted to hurt her, it has to be qualified. He wanted to hurt her, as you pointed out, and you did actually point out why. Instead of typing that out, I state that it is because he is mortified, humiliated, degraded and for all intents and purposes, dispossessed in that moment. Your reasoning is entirely correct, I believe, and I agree with it totally. You have shown Snape's point of view. I just gave the emotions, because I'm lazier than you :lol:.

Basically, it's 13 and a baker's dozen, we agree. :D

I don't know if 'silly' is the word I would use to describe Snape's choice to join up with the Death Eaters. But if you mean he was thinking in a silly manner to believe Lily would be impressed by him doing so, I would agree. Although I think a better word would be illogical.

You're a law student. I'm almost certain of it now! :lol: Silly isn't the word, you're right. But neither was it illogical. It would have given him power. The word I would choose is "fallacious". ;) And what I truly meant by that piece is that his planning was... whatever word we choose to use. :D

However, Lily wasn't present when Snape was dealing with Harry in HBP, so I am not sure I follow you...

I thought we were discussing that moment in his own youth when Levilicorpus, his own spell, was used against him? She was there for that, so that's what I was referring to. If though, I was taking you up incorrectly on that, apologies. My point was that the fact that Potter and Black had used his own curse against him, and with Lily present, when he already saw them as "inferior", would make him hypertensive and thus he would end up feeling even more so humiliated, degraded, same old story.. You know that tune, I don't have to hum it for you.:)

Harry is a saint and I respect your view that it is an admirable way to feel and thus you can find pity as a result. However, I am not Harry Potter and while I think it was good for him to forgive for his own sake and sanity, I cannot forgive on his behalf - I suppose because I am far from being a saint. :lol:.

I think you misunderstood me. The reason I analyze Snape so much is simply because I cannot forgive him at all. I appreciate his character most for its realism, but I don't forgive him what he did. I just pity him his losses and his similar inabilities. :)

Yes, we agree on what it is, but you had not clarified why, as such, it is. I provided the background info there, so we could found it in something as opposed saying it just occurred for no reason. We do, however, agree on the dictionary definition, which spells hope! ;)

Ah, well I dunno, I suppose we'd have to discuss it in more detail before I could agree. On the face, I would agree that what you said played into it, but there were a couple of points that made me feel you were cutting out his autonomy and ability to make decisions and choices and I wouldn't agree with that (if that is what you meant). Draco too was only presented with the one outlook and as far as I know, he remained a blood purist - but he was immersed in surroundings at Hogwarts where many and varied views were presented for his perusal and that is when his autonomy, decision making and choice would come into play. I feel the same way about Snape.

You're a law student. I'm almost certain of it now! :lol: Silly isn't the word, you're right. But neither was it illogical. It would have given him power. The word I would choose is "fallacious". ;) And what I truly meant by that piece is that his planning was... whatever word we choose to use. :D

Yes I am, but going into business if that helps. :lol:. I still feel he was being illogical; in that way he arrived at his fallacious thought. He went from thinking that if he were impressive and powerful, Lily would be impressed (perhaps). However, he went on to decide that his means: joining a group that wants to subjugate people like her in addition to behaving in a manner and under the guidance of Voldemort (who they were already calling "you-know-who" out of fear based on his activities to that point) - would be immaterial to Lily - all that mattered was the goal. Based on just the snippet of conversation we heard between Lily and Snape in DH, I am hard pressed to understand how he could arrive at that conclusion. To me, it had to include a false/irrational assumption on Snape's part about Lily. Although he may have just skipped that step because JKR said he didn't understand Lily's aversion to his dark arts interest and friends. :lol:.

I think you misunderstood me. The reason I analyze Snape so much is simply because I cannot forgive him at all. I appreciate his character most for its realism, but I don't forgive him what he did. I just pity him his losses and his similar inabilities. :)

Ah, well I don't have pity for him either. However, I have never understood why people say that his behavior makes him more 'real'. Honestly, I know a some people that maybe exhibit a trait or two he had, but I have maybe met one person like Snape in my entire life. So I don't understand how he can be more 'realistic' to people. To me, he is an anomoly when you consider him on the whole - I mean a person with all of those traits and problems together? But maybe others simply have numerous Snape-like people in their lives and that is why they see his behavior as making him more 'real'.

Ah, well I dunno, I suppose we'd have to discuss it in more detail before I could agree. On the face, I would agree that what you said played into it, but there were a couple of points that made me feel you were cutting out his autonomy and ability to make decisions and choices and I wouldn't agree with that (if that is what you meant). Draco too was only presented with the one outlook and as far as I know, he remained a blood purist - but he was immersed in surroundings at Hogwarts where many and varied views were presented for his perusal and that is when his autonomy, decision making and choice would come into play. I feel the same way about Snape.

No, it's not really what I meant. Well, not really. I'll say it on written record, Snape made his own very very poor decisions. There can be no doubt about that. I think the contrast with Draco is a great one for this example, by the way, good one :tu:!

Excuse my chronology here, I'll try to get it right, but if I make a mistake, tell me. I see this going on a bit, so sorry about that ;)... You know you love it. Anyway. Rowling has given us estimates of years on some things, and one of them is that in 1942, Tom Riddle, aged 15, killed the Riddles and framed Morfin Gaunt. 1945 was his last year in school. He took a job at Borgin and Burkes, and circa 1947, he appears as Lord Voldemort.

Harry's version of "Advanced Potion Making" is dated with a publishing date of 1948. It is "nearly fifty years old" in his, Harry's, sixth year. The book belonged to Severus Snape, and to his mother, Eileen Prince, before him. This is all canon. By 1956, Voldemort had begun to seriously gather followers, and he had already been a huge and central part of an influential group in his school days.

It can easily be argued that Eileen Prince was caught up in this, both as a Slytherin and as someone within Voldemort's own generation. It's certainly not impossible that she was somehow impressed by his power and strength, and that she, like all young people, bought somewhat into his ideas, if not to the complete way that others did. Admittedly she married a Muggle, but it wasn't exactly a happy relationship, and certainly the marriage was fraught, Snape says so himself.

Severus Snape was born in January (9th), 1960. In 1966, Voldemort was supposed to have begun his first campaign of terror. In 1970, the war begins. It will end with the "defeat" of Voldemort by Harry Potter's hand (head? :lol:, in 1981. In 1971, Snape begins his education in Hogwarts School. It seems realistic to assume that the ideas at least were part of Eileen's younger years, an influential time. It could easily be that this was, Snape grew up with the advocacy of a hatred of Muggles, added to by the fact that his father, one of the only Muggles he really knew, seemed unpleasant, and that the other Muggle kids picked on him.

Nonetheless, he arrived at school with one friend, Lily Evans. We know that Lucius Malfoy was a capable and attractive force with strong influences on Severus Snape from a very early age. In fact, he was the first person (that we know of) that Snape was introduced to when he was sorted into Slytherin. The Prefect Lucius pats him on the back quite affectionately as he takes his seat at that table for the first time. Within the following years, he began hanging around with Mulciber, Avery, all round mean peeps who all became Death Eaters. There were no secrets about their intentions, Lily herself is well aware of these.

Where in the name of Dobby's teacosy am I going with this essay, you ask. (And rightly so :tu:). My point is that Snape was very influenced by his mother, his father, the Muggle children and his school peers, not to mention the impressive figure of Lucius Malfoy, in his early years. He was presented with a view of other children and teenagers, yes, but they also disliked him, called him names, bullied him and humiliated him. I think, given these circumstances, he is justified slightly in his very poor decisions. I mean, there's a list of things here that point to a lack of social functioning. In reference to your point, about Draco, it's much the same situation. Taking his point of view for a moment, his father grew up a Death Eater in waiting, his mother the same. This proves that Hogwarts was full with them at that time, when Snape was most easily influenced. Draco was rejected by Harry Potter (rightly so, but bear with me). He was humiliated by a muggle born witch, something he had always seen as inferior, and he too was guided toward the dark side, culminating in much pain and him realising that this was not what he wanted, because he simply couldn't face being a killer.

In the same way, Snape, though his original request to save only Lily was despicable, turned from the Death Eaters, because he realised that he had made the wrong choice, losing Lily along the way.

Yes I am, but going into business if that helps. :lol:

I think you'll do fantastically at it. Good luck. :tu:

Based on just the snippet of conversation we heard between Lily and Snape in DH, I am hard pressed to understand how he could arrive at that conclusion. To me, it had to include a false/irrational assumption on Snape's part about Lily. Although he may have just skipped that step because JKR said he didn't understand Lily's aversion to his dark arts interest and friends. :lol:.

;). Based on the chronology I spent a half hour thinking through, I disagree. I see exactly where he got his warped logic from. In fact, I see more than four places he located it from and why he internalized it. The Death Eaters looked powerful, they were strong. He would have power, he could beat Potter and win Lily. He was a kid stuck in something that he didn't entirely understand, perhaps. Regardless of that, I understand exactly how he reached that conclusion, and that's even if you discount his mother from the equation for not being entirely rooted in canon. He skipped the step, because he had never really seen the step to take. He saw no difference. Power, or no power.
Because power was what Sirius and James had over him, and I know if it were me, I would have wanted the same.

Ah, well I don't have pity for him either. However, I have never understood why people say that his behavior makes him more 'real'. Honestly, I know a some people that maybe exhibit a trait or two he had, but I have maybe met one person like Snape in my entire life. So I don't understand how he can be more 'realistic' to people. To me, he is an anomoly when you consider him on the whole - I mean a person with all of those traits and problems together? But maybe others simply have numerous Snape-like people in their lives and that is why they see his behavior as making him more 'real'.

That's not necessarily true. It's more that, in the context of the books, with the preface and epigraphs based on triumphing over death with love, and of love being the foundation of success, and of love being the be all and end all, Snape is a rather large chunk of irony. The series otherwise places people in black or white camps. Grey areas are really hard to find in it, but he is definitely one.

Love was essentially what stopped him in his tracks and made him think, at long last, for himself. Entirely based in greed though that thought was, he did think it, and he gave up his chances of power for it. In the context of the series, and not real life, Snape is still a pariah, but he's certainly a more realistic example of conscience and how it wavers. It's the contrast with other characters that causes it, I reckon.

I dearly hope I've been clear enough here... half an hour... What else is worth this?! :D

EDIT: Duckie had a silly moment. It is fixed now though.. for anyone who noticed!

No, it's not really what I meant. Well, not really. I'll say it on written record, Snape made his own very very poor decisions. There can be no doubt about that. I think the contrast with Draco is a great one for this example, by the way, good one :tu:!

Thanks. I do agree for the most part with your chronology. But I will insert a couple of facts I feel you left out that change the conclusion for me to some degree.

Excuse my chronology here, I'll try to get it right, but if I make a mistake, tell me. I see this going on a bit, so sorry about that ;)... You know you love it. Anyway. Rowling has given us estimates of years on some things, and one of them is that in 1942, Tom Riddle, aged 15, killed the Riddles and framed Morfin Gaunt. 1945 was his last year in school. He took a job at Borgin and Burkes, and circa 1947, he appears as Lord Voldemort.

Harry's version of "Advanced Potion Making" is dated with a publishing date of 1948. It is "nearly fifty years old" in his, Harry's, sixth year. The book belonged to Severus Snape, and to his mother, Eileen Prince, before him. This is all canon. By 1956, Voldemort had begun to seriously gather followers, and he had already been a huge and central part of an influential group in his school days.

Agreed. :tu:

It can easily be argued that Eileen Prince was caught up in this, both as a Slytherin and as someone within Voldemort's own generation. It's certainly not impossible that she was somehow impressed by his power and strength, and that she, like all young people, bought somewhat into his ideas, if not to the complete way that others did. Admittedly she married a Muggle, but it wasn't exactly a happy relationship, and certainly the marriage was fraught, Snape says so himself.

Severus Snape was born in January (9th), 1960. In 1966, Voldemort was supposed to have begun his first campaign of terror. In 1970, the war begins and ends with the "defeat" of Voldemort by Harry Potter's hand. In 1971, Snape begins his education in Hogwarts School. It seems realistic to assume that the ideas at least were part of Eileen's younger years, an influential time.

This is where the first assumption comes in that I may disagree with. I say 'may' because I am not sure what you mean exactly. I feel it very possible that Eileen was caught up with and impressed by Voldemort early on. However, whatever she believed about all of that, like you said, she married a muggle. Now I find it tremendously hard that she would be full support behind Voldemort, who is so disdainful against muggles. So while I think she may have been proud of her pure blood heritage, not to the degree of say Lucius who would have decapitated himself before marrying a muggle. So her view on muggles was clearly less than disdainful and hateful which is what we see with Death Eaters in the main (granted to varying degrees).

Missing facts: Either Eileen was into the dark arts, or she had library books about the dark arts - or some access to them that her son could also gain access to. Snape learned some dark curses prior to arriving at Hogwarts, so this is necessarily true. He could not even use magic legally before he went, but any thing he did would be put down to 'accidental magic' or Eileen would claim she'd done it. Nonetheless, Snape somehow learned some curses. I assume Sirius may have been exaggerating that he knew more than some 7th years, but even if it were just 2 or 3, he learned some.

At this point he may have become fascinated with the dark arts, it seems likely as in addition, he determined that he wanted to be in Slytherin house. Now I am inclined to say this was all his mum's influence because we saw that happen so much in canon. But his statement to Lily on the train, 'you better be in Slytherin' indicates he had a firm desire to be there himself, imo.

Finally, if others at Hogwarts were aware that Snape knew the curses upon arrival at Hogwarts, I cannot think of any reasonable way for them to know this unless he used them early on. Otherwise, it would be more reasonable to assume he learned them at Hogwarts from his older friends. Now this may not mean he used them on other children, although it could mean that - but, he could have just been showing them to his new housemates or something along those lines. Nonetheless, he somehow manifested this so others could know, imo. So these missing facts taken together show that Snape may have already had a fascination with the dark arts; knew some curses before arriving at Hogwarts and had a fervent desire to be in Slytherin. This may have been his mother's influence or some other influence (books or whatever).

It could easily be that this was, Snape grew up with the advocacy of a hatred of Muggles, added to by the fact that his father, one of the only Muggles he really knew, seemed unpleasant, and that the other Muggle kids picked on him.

This brings out another assumption. I agree Snape disliked his muggle father. However, it is an assumption to me to say that the muggle kids picked on him, imo. First, Snape disliked his dad and he apparently already knew the difference between Muggles and Wizards. His mum likely told him that the children in the neighborhood were muggles. So he ventures out in his odd, mix matched and overly large clothing and the kids likely laugh at the sight of him.

I would agree, one could construe that as 'picking on him' - but it is something Snape could overcome if his attitude allowed him too. But Snape looked back on these kids with disdain - they were muggles, lesser beings (wizards v. muggles) and he reached the decision that they were not worth his time or energy. I cannot be convinced that Snape could not have befriended these kids. I had a friend who dressed in similarly weird clothes (his sister's handme downs) and the first time we met him (he'd just moved to the neighborhood) he was wearing a top hat, together with his weird clothes. We fell out laughing and teased him mercilessly. You know what he did? He grinned, he told us his clothes were cool, and laughed with us. He was also very slow in too many ways to relate, so we nicknamed him that first day a word that translates as "worm". He laughed at that too. You couldn't help but like the guy because he was so good natured and could laugh at himself. Well he became our best mate, despite his weird clothes and that continued to include wearing weird stuff he found at his grandparent's house (like the top hat). Plus he was always late, slow to catch on and you had to repeat things to him several times. But it didn't matter, he still became one of us.

So based on experience, I know that it is not only kid's reactions to you, but your response that also determines the outcome of interaction. Snape, in canon, told Petunia that he wouldn't bother spying on her cuz she was nothing more than a muggle (paraphrased for meaning). So he apparently did not laugh at himself when he met the kids laughing at his clothes and disdaining of him for being on the wrong side of the tracks. He did not grin at them and show that he wanted to be one of them despite his differences. He may have just ran away and said nothing. But whatever his response, he didn't befriend, instead he isolated himself from the muggle kids. In doing so, if he continued to put himself in their presence, they would likely continue to laugh at him. But I have a real hard time as seeing that as "picking on him" if he was disdainful of them, yet kept going around them.

Little kids are not accepting of 'weird', that is just how it is. So you have to befriend them by showing them that under the wierd clothes, you are not weird. But the fact is, Snape was 'weird' because he believed himself different and better and so together with his clothes and attitude, he would become a werido to their young minds. It is not nice of kids to be that way, but they are.

Note the distinction with Lily. Snape was weird when he approached her and her sister too. They marched right away from the weirdo. But Snape not only didn't give up and disdain Lily, he came out of his shell and found a way to befriend her, because he wanted to. He did not feel that way about the other muggle kids or the muggle Petunia. So that is what I mean by Snape's response to the situation being important. It was not Lily who was different (she ran away too and appeared to agree that Snape looked weird), but it was Snape who was different with her, imo.

Nonetheless, he arrived at school with one friend, Lily Evans. We know that Lucius Malfoy was a capable and attractive force with strong influences on Severus Snape from a very early age. In fact, he was the first person (that we know of) that Snape was introduced to when he was sorted into Slytherin. The Prefect Lucius pats him on the back quite affectionately as he takes his seat at that table for the first time. Within the following years, he began hanging around with Mulciber, Avery, all round mean peeps who all became Death Eaters. There were no secrets about their intentions, Lily herself is well aware of these.

We don't know when Lily became aware they were all planning to join Voldemort. I would imagine they didn't even decide 1st year. Maybe 2nd year at the earliest. But Lily would not become aware of this; all that we know she knew about Snape was that he was interested in the dark arts as were his friends and they did things she did not like (calling others Mudblood, using dark curses, etc.) By 5th year, we know Lily knew Snape's buddies were all going to join. But she admitted she was "pretending" with Snape. She had convinced herself that he was not like them, despite his showing otherwise in his behavior and beliefs (dark arts fascination, use of dark curses and calling others mudblood.) She claimed she had been making excuses for him for years for these things. I imagine it was to say that Snape's friends influenced him but "he wasn't really like them".

Where in the name of Dobby's teacosy am I going with this essay, you ask. (And rightly so :tu:). My point is that Snape was very influenced by his mother, his father, the Muggle children and his school peers, not to mention the impressive figure of Lucius Malfoy, in his early years. He was presented with a view of other children and teenagers, yes, but they also disliked him, called him names, bullied him and humiliated him.

Snape was unpopular. He came in doing curses and adopted the habit of calling others mudblood. He was also fascinated with the dark arts, something that was known about him ('up to his ears in the dark arts) and the reason that Sirius said James didn't like him. Now it is very difficult for me personally to understand Snape as the victim of "everyone" disliking him, calling him names, bullying him and humiliating him for no reason at all. He had 4 specific enemies that we know of, and they would of course follow that pattern (as he would against them) - but I feel he was unpopular because of what he did and said and the people he hung around.

For example, some non descript Ravenclaw boy, who did nothing in particular, and let's say he disliked fighting - so he was one in the crowd in SWM who was not cheering or laughing. But this boy would not move in to help Snape either (although he might help another out) - in my judgment, because he would see Snape calling his buddies 'mudblood', laughing it up when his mates used dark magic on others, using his dark curses - at some point against 'his enemies' to the point where his Sectumsempra became a specialty; and he would know, as others did, Snape hung with the "dangerous gang", many of whom joined Voldemort - plus he was into the dark arts. Now for this kid, Snape is unpopular not because he is Snape's enemy, but because of who Snape is and the things he does, says and appears to believe. This kid hates fighting, so he is not cheering James and Sirius on when they have the advantage and he wishes "no one would fight at Hogwarts ever" and he never fights himself. But he has no desire to help Snape or befriend Snape or associate with Snape in anyway shape or form - just as he would feel about Mulciber, Avery, Bella and Lucius. Those people are "unpopular" to him because of who they are and what they do.

So I think a lot of people felt like the 'non descript' kid. Some of them were not against fighting at all and may have been happy to see any of those in the budding death eater group 'get theirs'. Some of them too, would like to hex those in the 'dangerous group', but perhaps were not brave enough to do so.

Now Snape also had poor hygiene, which was another reason kids wouldn't take to him - but they would just ignore him over that, so he would be an outcast perhaps in any case. And there may have been some of that going on, even with his own housemates to some extent. But his friends and those he hung around, were all budding Death Eaters, all "outcasts" in that light. Snape would just have this extra added bit to his outcastedness. (is that a word? :lol:)


I think, given these circumstances, he is justified slightly in his very poor decisions. I mean, there's a list of things here that point to a lack of social functioning.

So we arrive at your conclusion. Based on what I have said; I agree that Snape had many influences, good (Lily, and those other students who were just 'good') as well as bad (his dad, those in his dangerous gang). I do not agree that he is justified slightly anymore than anyone else. For example, Mulciber too had influences that lead to his poor decision to become a death eater. ALL of those who became Death Eaters could be similarly justified. ALL of those who became Order Members could claim similar justifications for their choices too. So to me it doesn't stand to give Snape some kind of "highlighted justification" for his poor choices anymore than it does anyone else. Further, Snape made a lot of autonomous decisions that lead him down that path: determining to be in Slytherin, befriending those budding Death Eaters there, creating dark curses and using them, generally fascinated with the dark arts, accepting the DE way and calling others mudblood. Influence is one thing, but Snape in the end, had to make choices - just like everyone else.

Sirius could have been a formidable Death Eater. But he chose to become an Order Member instead. It came down to a choice and he had a lot of good reasons to go the other way from when he was a child. His mentality was reckless and a bit dangerous. I mean he was all set. But he went the other way. It was a choice, despite the bad influences - because he allowed the good influences to rule his choice, imo.

;). Based on the chronology I spent a half hour thinking through, I disagree. I see exactly where he got his warped logic from. In fact, I see more than four places he located it from and why he internalized it. The Death Eaters looked powerful, they were strong. He would have power, he could beat Potter and win Lily. He was a kid stuck in something that he didn't entirely understand, perhaps. Regardless of that, I understand exactly how he reached that conclusion, and that's even if you discount his mother from the equation for not being entirely rooted in canon. He skipped the step, because he had never really seen the step to take. He saw no difference. Power, or no power. Because power was what Sirius and James had over him, and I know if it were me, I would have wanted the same.

Power I don't think is what you mean - but you may. If James and Sirius had "power" over Snape, he would have ended up joining the Order. What they had was the advantage in SWM. That was all we saw. We can imagine scenarios with Snape following them around and getting busted at it and also being at a disadvantage. We can imagine scenarios where James is off to Quidditch practice, alone, and Snape and his buddies have the advantage and take it. Same with Peter doing a lone stint in Herbology class - Snape and Mulciber see him and attack. We can come up with 100 scenarios.

But you know what? All we know for sure is that SWM happened; there were other fights (we don't know who started them), there was hexing in 7th that Snape started solely against James and he retaliated; and we know that Snape created a dark curse "for enemies" (the Marauders) and it became his specialty at Hogwarts. That is the only canon we have. So for me, it was not a matter of someone having "power in attacking" - but rather power in less objective forms. For example: James: Quidditch hero, popularity, Lily, v. Snape: unpopular, lack of athleticism, no Lily. This at various times at Hogwarts. So Snape may have seen these things as power, but the 'power' had nothing to do with their fighting, because if Snape whipped out Sectumsempra, who has the power then?

But Snape might have seen that power in many people. James for the reasons I gave; Lucius because of his ancestry, leadership position and having the admiration of his friends; and others at school for various reasons. He also saw power in Voldemort and that was his manner of achieving it. But that had nothing to do with Lucius or James or anyone else, except in an extraneous way. They seemed to have these little facets of power he didn't. But more importantly, he also had a VERY powerful man in his presence: Dumbledore. Equal in all ways to Voldemort, except that Voldemort seemed to be in the winning position for the moment (at least not caught and presumably uncatchable). So Snape could have gone for Dumbledore for power right from the bat, but he chose not to do so.

That's not necessarily true. It's more that, in the context of the books, with the preface and epigraphs based on triumphing over death with love, and of love being the foundation of success, and of love being the be all and end all, Snape is a rather large chunk of irony. The series otherwise places people in black or white camps. Grey areas are really hard to find in it, but he is definitely one.

I don't see Snape as grey. I used to say I did. But I think if I saw him as grey, I would agree with you. But when I consider all of the things he did before his turn; AND all of the things he did while on the good side; it does not add up to a middling position of grey. It adds up to a very, very dark grey, tettering on black. So I do not agree with that take.

Love was essentially what stopped him in his tracks and made him think, at long last, for himself. Entirely based in greed though that thought was, he did think it, and he gave up his chances of power for it. In the context of the series, and not real life, Snape is still a pariah, but he's certainly a more realistic example of conscience and how it wavers. It's the contrast with other characters that causes it, I reckon.

I am not sure what JKR's point was with Snape. He loved and that was all that mattered? I don't care how in love with love she is, I personally do see great distinctions in the love that Harry, Hermione, Molly and others showed for people and the love Snape showed for Lily. In light of the character of Snape's love, I cannot be proud of or happy for Snape; I cannot look at the love he felt as something honorable. The most I can do is say that it gave him the bravery to spy on Voldemort for 3.5 years and that was good - a couple of the things he did for Dumbledore were good too, but not all. And that it caused him to move from Voldemort to Dumbledore as leader was also good. Everything else the love caused Snape to do was despicable, imo. Further, the tenor (or character) of the love itself was not good in the least little bit to me. That it was unrequited was fine. But the other characteristics of it were horrible, imo, (selfish, obessive, posseive and engendering hatred).

I am being completely and 100% honest with you about how I feel. And I am not basing it on some 'fanciful imaginings'. Everything I feel about Snape's character is based solidly on some canon from the books as I interpreted it(unless I state otherwise) - and I am happy to explain with canon anything above you don't think can be supported by the canon.

I dearly hope I've been clear enough here... half an hour... What else is worth this?! :D

My response took 1.5 hours (but I did stop to do a ton of things in between writing). :lol:. But I had two double classes today, so it was nice to take my mind off of that maddness for a while.

Thanks. I do agree for the most part with your chronology. But I will insert a couple of facts I feel you left out that change the conclusion for me to some degree.

Good. I actually am looking forward to it! :lol:

This is where the first assumption comes in that I may disagree with. I say 'may' because I am not sure what you mean exactly. I feel it very possible that Eileen was caught up with and impressed by Voldemort early on. However, whatever she believed about all of that, like you said, she married a muggle. Now I find it tremendously hard that she would be full support behind Voldemort, who is so disdainful against muggles. So while I think she may have been proud of her pure blood heritage, not to the degree of say Lucius who would have decapitated himself before marrying a muggle. So her view on muggles was clearly less than disdainful and hateful which is what we see with Death Eaters in the main (granted to varying degrees).

Yep. That's exactly what I mean. She didn't throw full support behind him, but she likely did at least look into it. And as proud as she was of her heritage, she did marry a muggle. We're definitely missing a part of the story here. What made her marry him? It's arguably true that she really and truly fell for him and left perhaps the extremism associated with Voldemort behind. But when the marriage began to go sour, I would assume that she felt a bit vindictive again.

Snape was born, things got cold, the fighting started. It comes across that Tobias Snape knew about the magical elements to his family. He must have, because Severus Snape knew a lot about the wizarding world, so it must have been discussed. I imagine that Eileen was well capable of throwing snide remarks here and there in a fight, and I think at some stage she looked again at the Voldemort times. Her feelings towards Tobias could easily have run off on the young Severus, and Eileen herself likely threw words into the arena that Snape got to know and recognise. He seems to focus his dislike mostly on his father in that conversation with Lily.

In short, yes, her views were less extreme, and she married Tobias because she loved him. It was when the marriage went stale that she bandied words about and made smart comments that would have stuck in Snape's mind as a boy.

Missing facts: Either Eileen was into the dark arts, or she had library books about the dark arts - or some access to them that her son could also gain access to. Snape learned some dark curses prior to arriving at Hogwarts, so this is necessarily true. He could not even use magic legally before he went, but any thing he did would be put down to 'accidental magic' or Eileen would claim she'd done it. Nonetheless, Snape somehow learned some curses. I assume Sirius may have been exaggerating that he knew more than some 7th years, but even if it were just 2 or 3, he learned some.

Yep. That's also a feasible explanation. Either way, the beginnings of his prejudices he picked up on at home. From his mother, or from her books or papers or whatever she had lying around. We agree.

At this point he may have become fascinated with the dark arts, it seems likely as in addition, he determined that he wanted to be in Slytherin house. Now I am inclined to say this was all his mum's influence because we saw that happen so much in canon. But his statement to Lily on the train, 'you better be in Slytherin' indicates he had a firm desire to be there himself, imo.

This, again, I feel we're missing tiny minor details on, but it's something we findamentally do agree on. It indicates that Snape must indeed have felt closer to his mother, to wish to be in the same House as she had been. If he had hated her (taking Sirius as an example, perhaps), he would have wanted it to be different. He was highly influenced by Eileen in these decisions. It does therefore show that yes, he always had the intention of being in Slytherin. Why would he not have? He probably knew very little of more democratic feelings towards Muggles. Since we figure his mother taught him those basics, that image of Slytherin on a pedestal for admiration is difficult to fight with. She would, of course, have told him hoe great it was. Also, he had little to compare it to. The only person he otherwise spoke to was Lily, who was ignorant of the Wizarding World until he arrived.

Finally, if others at Hogwarts were aware that Snape knew the curses upon arrival at Hogwarts, I cannot think of any reasonable way for them to know this unless he used them early on. Otherwise, it would be more reasonable to assume he learned them at Hogwarts from his older friends. Now this may not mean he used them on other children, although it could mean that - but, he could have just been showing them to his new housemates or something along those lines. Nonetheless, he somehow manifested this so others could know, imo. So these missing facts taken together show that Snape may have already had a fascination with the dark arts; knew some curses before arriving at Hogwarts and had a fervent desire to be in Slytherin. This may have been his mother's influence or some other influence (books or whatever).

It could mean, indeed, that he practiced on others. He was definitely no knight in shining armour. It could also be conjecture, kid's style. You know, makes sense. The dank kid is a dark wizard. Stereotyping, very generalised, but feasible. And indeed, he could have just shown them off to friends. he may well have had the dark streak, but I must hold out that this was a result of his mother giving him this view. There are further reasons that deal with his family, more in relation to your next statement..


This brings out another assumption. I agree Snape disliked his muggle father. However, it is an assumption to me to say that the muggle kids picked on him, imo. First, Snape disliked his dad and he apparently already knew the difference between Muggles and Wizards. His mum likely told him that the children in the neighborhood were muggles. So he ventures out in his odd, mix matched and overly large clothing and the kids likely laugh at the sight of him.

This was exactly what I'm talking about. He lived in a muggle area, and there are some further issues to be discussed too. Bear with me. In he memory Harry once saw, a hook nosed man is yelling at a woman while a boy with greasy hair sits in the corner and cries. It would seem obvious that this is Tobias yelling at Eileen, Snape bearing witness to the hurt. The passage also indicates that the woman is frightened. I have to suggest, mush though I dislike the idea, that this wasn't just a poor relationship, but perhaps an abusive one. It certainly fills in the gap as to why he detested his father and preferred his mother, despite the fact that they both screamed at each other. Awkward though it is, it fills a vital gap.

Also, the issue of his clothing. He is noted as looking "not well cared for", indicating either that the Snape's were either neglectful parents (which would also explain how he got into the dark arts, pure boredom and anger), or just plain caught in a poverty trap. The fact that they lived near a textile mill might indicate that Tobias worked there. Now, this is a bit far fetched, but in the 1960s, quite a few areas in Britain were actually hit with Depression resulting from closing mills. If you're to assume that JK Rowling knew this and used it as a backdrop, then the poverty looks likely, and his mother was a big part of his choices. It also could prove the idea that the marriage staled as a direct result of this tough time, but that is, entirely conjecture. Sensible, but it is pushing the bar out into real world terms.

I would agree, one could construe that as 'picking on him' - but it is something Snape could overcome if his attitude allowed him too.

Which it didn't. I admit this, and though I'm not really seeking an excuse, I can lay it down to the fact that he had seen quite enough bullying. And anyway, his mother had already (perhaps) told him they weren't worth his time. He believed her. One of his first bad choices in his chldhood that echoed outward.

So based on experience, I know that it is not only kid's reactions to you, but your response that also determines the outcome of interaction. Snape, in canon, told Petunia that he wouldn't bother spying on her cuz she was nothing more than a muggle (paraphrased for meaning). So he apparently did not laugh at himself when he met the kids laughing at his clothes and disdaining of him for being on the wrong side of the tracks. He did not grin at them and show that he wanted to be one of them despite his differences. He may have just ran away and said nothing. But whatever his response, he didn't befriend, instead he isolated himself from the muggle kids. In doing so, if he continued to put himself in their presence, they would likely continue to laugh at him. But I have a real hard time as seeing that as "picking on him" if he was disdainful of them, yet kept going around them.

Well, I do actually see your point. That perhaps he could himself have done more to stop it. On a personal basis, from past experiences, I know that I would have done what he did and ran away, if that is what he did. Overall it made me more outspoken and benefited me. I don't take that kind of thing anymore, I don't believe in it. To this end, and feel free to contradict, you won't hurt my feelings as I would assume I won't hurt yours (btw, that guy sounds fantastically like a friend of mine!), I don't think anybody has a right to pick on someone else, for whatever reason or to whatever end. It's something I just do not do and something that, unless in genuine good spirited fun (obviously), I would not condone.

Little kids are not accepting of 'weird', that is just how it is. So you have to befriend them by showing them that under the wierd clothes, you are not weird. But the fact is, Snape was 'weird' because he believed himself different and better and so together with his clothes and attitude, he would become a werido to their young minds. It is not nice of kids to be that way, but they are.

Again, I entirely agree with you that this was what Snape thought and why he didn't compensate for his overall awkwardness in any way. But it doesn't justify making him feel awful ;).

Note the distinction with Lily. Snape was weird when he approached her and her sister too. They marched right away from the weirdo. But Snape not only didn't give up and disdain Lily, he came out of his shell and found a way to befriend her, because he wanted to. He did not feel this way about the other muggle kids or the muggle Petunia. So that is what I mean by Snape's response to the situation being important. It was not Lily who was different (she ran away too and appeared to agree that Snape looked weird), but it was Snape who was different with her, imo.

We're agreed. He made bad decisions in his youth and didn't differentiate between people with any logical sense. But, and I will stick to this, there are two sides to this. He didn't particularly like the muggle children anyway, they laughed at him. And his mother had possibly told him they were inferior, and so this was why he rejected Lily. To this end, I do not think Severus Snape can truly be blamed for what he internalized. It was justified time and time again to him, by his mother. Why think otherwise? There was nobody else to teach him otherwise. There was no choice of things to internalize.


We don't know when Lily became aware they were all planning to join Voldemort. I would imagine they didn't even decide 1st year. Maybe 2nd year at the earliest. But Lily would not become aware of this; all that we know she knew about Snape was that he was interested in the dark arts as were his friends and they did things she did not like (calling others Mudblood, using dark curses, etc.) By 5th year, we know Lily knew Snape's buddies were all going to join. But she admitted she was "pretending" with Snape. She had convinced herself that he was not like them, despite his showing otherwise in his behavior and beliefs (dark arts fascination, use of dark curses and calling others mudblood.) She claimed she had been making excuses for him for years for these things. I imagine it was to say that Snape's friends influenced him but "he wasn't really like them".

Yep. All agreed with you there. She tried to justify his poor decision making for years, but she couldn't do it any longer.


Snape was unpopular. He came in doing curses and adopted the habit of calling others mudblood. He was also fascinated with the dark arts, something that was known about him ('up to his ears in the dark arts) and the reason that Sirius said James didn't like him. Now it is very difficult for me personally to understand Snape as the victim of "everyone" disliking him, calling him names, bullying him and humiliating him for no reason at all. He had 4 specific enemies that we know of, and they would of course follow that pattern (as he would against them) - but I feel he was unpopular because of what he did and said and the people he hung around.

Yep. :tu:. Definitely not a good kid or a pleasant guy. Quiet, perhaps, but not at all endearing.

Now Snape also had poor hygiene, which was another reason kids wouldn't take to him - but they would just ignore him over that, so he would be an outcast perhaps in any case. And there may have been some of that going on, even with his own housemates to some extent. But his friends and those he hung around, were all budding Death Eaters, all "outcasts" in that light. Snape would just have this extra added bit to his outcastedness. (is that a word? :lol:)

It is now! :D I agree that indeed he was more and more marginalised, entirely as a result of his own choices and decisions. I don't defend that, but I do understand where it all came from.

So we arrive at your conclusion. Based on what I have said; I agree that Snape had many influences, good (Lily, and those other students who were just 'good') as well as bad (his dad, those in his dangerous gang). I do not agree that he is justified slightly anymore than anyone else.

We are 90% in agreeement. Here is where 5 percent of it is. I think he had more bad influences than good in his early life, when a person is at their most "influencable" (see, I made up a word too... ;)). His mother, his father, the Muggle Kids, in direct juxtaposition with Lily, arguably the only friend he made. I just think it lacks balance and came too late.

For example, Mulciber too had influences that lead to his poor decision to become a death eater. ALL of those who became Death Eaters could be similarly justified. ALL of those who became Order Members could claim similar justifications for their choices too. So to me it doesn't stand to give Snape some kind of "highlighted justification" for his poor choices anymore than it does anyone else. Influence is one thing, but Snape in the end, had to make choices - just like everyone else.

Yep. He made his own choices. His own decisions, and I think he answered for them in the worst possible way. Stuck forever in a life he never truly chose. Half monk half assassin. Noone to love, to be with, no real life to lead. Stuck in the shadows to protect a boy whose father had often bullied Snape for fun. And that can't be justified for James either. To him, it was just fun. The fact that this affected Snape for the rest of his life indicates that the bullying really and truly did get to him, even from Sirius, who was not the one who won Lily. The entire system of bad treatment affected him mentally for a long time. He was still vindictive in the 90s, almost twenty years down the line.

There is a reason for this too. Snape had never been taught forgiveness or the value of it. His parents didn't forgive or forget, his friends didn't forgive or forget, his original master didn't forgive or forget.

Sirius could have been a formidable Death Eater. But he chose to become an Order Member instead. It came down to a choice and he had a lot of good reasons to go the other way from when he was a child. His mentality was reckless and a bit dangerous. I mean he was all set. But he went the other way. It was a choice, despite the bad influences - because he allowed the good influences to rule his choice, imo.

Absolutely. It's a mildly contrasting image. But I do see many of the same traits in them. Bullies, vindictive, cruel. But again, we actually know more about Snape and his family. I cannot explain with any canon whatsoever why Sirius chose to be different. Nor can I accept that "he just did". There are always reasons, I just don't know these ones. There might be a reference, do you know one by any chance?

But you know what? All we know for sure is that SWM happened; there were other fights (we don't know who started them), there was hexing in 7th that Snape started solely against James and he retaliated; and we know that Snape created a dark curse "for enemies" (the Marauders) and it became his specialty at Hogwarts. That is the only canon we have. So for me, it was not a matter of someone having "power in attacking" - but rather power in less objective forms. For example: James: Quidditch hero, popularity, Lily, v. Snape: unpopular, lack of athleticism, no Lily. This at various times at Hogwarts. So Snape may have seen these things as power, but the 'power' had nothing to do with their fighting, because if Snape whipped out Sectumsempra, who has the power then?

I concede that this wasn't really the power I meant. Imeant in the more general sense, despite everything he had been told and taught, that they were inferior to him, and that he had nothing to desire or wish for from them, Snape actually found himself envious, greedy and possessed by desire and jealousy. That, to me, grants them huge power, not in the physical sense, but in Snape's head.

So Snape could have gone for Dumbledore for power right from the bat, but he chose not to do so.

I honestly don't think it even struck him. That went against every testament he had heard, everything that had been pushed into him since childhood, every single iota of knowledge in his head pointed elsewhere, and yes, this was due to his own choices. But I think he was so demented in seeking power that he forgot what it was. It didn't strike him at all that he stood a better chance with her out of the Death Eaters. In this way, I do consider him a victim of circumstance. He should have been able to break free, but I imagine the safe feeling of backup, unknown to him before Hogwarts, prevented that. He was certainly not unintelligent, but rather misconstrued the entire thing, from the bottom up.

I don't see Snape as grey. I used to say I did. But I think if I saw him as grey, I would agree with you. But when I consider all of the things he did before his turn; AND all of the things he did while on the good side; it does not add up to a middling position of grey. It adds up to a very, very dark grey, tettering on black. So I do not agree with that take.

But it's still a shade of grey. ;) And as long as you believe him to be in a shade of grey, that means that we will always partway agree. It's tiny personal inklings that prevent us agreeing. I consider Sirius to be a grey character, light grey, but grey. There are so few of them, but Snape is definitely the one I classify as nearest middling. Aside from the fact that we've now been at this for four hours between us (for which we both deserve a medal), and that we will continue it as long as we can, we still do not entirely agree, despite each of us understanding the others points and views. As for why I see him as being that grey...It's below this quote.

The most I can do is say that it gave him the bravery to spy on Voldemort for 3.5 years and that was good - a couple of the things he did for Dumbledore were good too, but not all. And that it caused him to move from Voldemort to Dumbledore as leader was also good. Everything else the love caused Snape to do was despicable, imo. That it was unrequited was fine. But the other characteristics of it were horrible, imo, (selfish, obessive, posseive and engendering hatred).

And that is exactly why I see him as a middling grey. He worshipped the ground she walked on. It almost drove him insane. There was nothing he could do and no way to win, but to give his worthless life to watching over someone with a value system much more honorable than his own. He saw in Harry Potter only what he expected to see- a chrome copy of his father, untrue though this was. But he did give that life. He was so selfish and so arrogant that all he ever cared about was himself, yes?

Then to me, he did make a huge sacrifice. He gave up the thing he loved most- himself- to try to atone for his decisions. The comprehension came too late.

I am being completely and 100% honest with you about how I feel. And I am not basing it on some 'fanciful imaginings'. Everything I feel about Snape's character is based solidly on some canon from the books as I interpreted it(unless I state otherwise) - and I am happy to explain with canon anything above you don't think can be supported by the canon

I completely reciprocate on that. I imagine, in fact I know, we will always disagree about this. But each time we talk it through, we find something else. There's no definitive answer, just discussion. I ardently respect your view, it's certainly not a pariah opinion. I'd be a fool to pass it off as nothing. This has come down to us being quite frank about old experiences and that shows one thing above all others.

J K Rowling sure knows how to write an enigma. Snape's a character you can identify with, but only in doses, and what those sections are define your view of him.

You know, I could write a dissertation on Snape. :lol:
I realise this is maddeningly long, but take your time if you're going to reply. I have to sleep!! :tu: It's six am. I dearly hope this all makes sense. And don't moan if some of it doesn't, remember what time it as when I wrote it, right? :lol:

Best conversation I've had all night, quite frankly.:relax:

Absolutely. It's a mildly contrasting image. But I do see many of the same traits in them. Bullies, vindictive, cruel. But again, we actually know more about Snape and his family. I cannot explain with any canon whatsoever why Sirius chose to be different. Nor can I accept that "he just did". There are always reasons, I just don't know these ones. There might be a reference, do you know one by any chance?

Canon is that Sirius was less isolated than Sev. He had an extemded family with which he is known to have socialized, and it included members his mother ended up disowning for having views contrary to her Pureblood views. This included an uncle who left him an inheritance, and a favorite cousin who became a "blood traitor". It is reasonable to suppose these contrary influences to his mother were present throughout his life, even in early childhood. So there is a contrast of circumstances between the two charactes as well as one of outcome.

Good. I actually am looking forward to it! :lol:

As was I :lol:. I've left out the paragraphs that I agree with. ;)

This, again, I feel we're missing tiny minor details on, but it's something we findamentally do agree on. It indicates that Snape must indeed have felt closer to his mother, to wish to be in the same House as she had been. If he had hated her (taking Sirius as an example, perhaps), he would have wanted it to be different. He was highly influenced by Eileen in these decisions. It does therefore show that yes, he always had the intention of being in Slytherin. Why would he not have? He probably knew very little of more democratic feelings towards Muggles. Since we figure his mother taught him those basics, that image of Slytherin on a pedestal for admiration is difficult to fight with. She would, of course, have told him hoe great it was. Also, he had little to compare it to. The only person he otherwise spoke to was Lily, who was ignorant of the Wizarding World until he arrived.

I would elaborate to add that his 'comparisons' were likely negative ones. That is, I think his mother likely told him of the house system (otherwise he would not realize he and Lily had a choice of houses.) But in as much as his mum (or he independently) felt Slytherin was the best; he'd also decided the other houses were not where he wished to go. I would add that his disparaging noise made when James mentioned Gryffindor was indicative that he'd already gained as much prejudice for that house as James had for Slytherin. This we see with all of the kids though; Ron, Draco, the Twins - all came along wanting Gryffindor or Slytherin and disdaining the other house. I feel the parents (inlcuding Snape's) engendered their dislike for the rival house because how else would they take that view? And again, Snape could have read about it rather than heard it from Eileen, but JKR was pretty consistent with the parent's influence thing.

It could mean, indeed, that he practiced on others. He was definitely no knight in shining armour. It could also be conjecture, kid's style. You know, makes sense. The dank kid is a dark wizard. Stereotyping, very generalised, but feasible. And indeed, he could have just shown them off to friends. he may well have had the dark streak, but I must hold out that this was a result of his mother giving him this view. There are further reasons that deal with his family, more in relation to your next statement..

Well I agree - but in as much as Lucius gave Draco his view - or Arthur gave Ron his. And kids often take on the values of their parents in just that way.

This was exactly what I'm talking about. He lived in a muggle area, and there are some further issues to be discussed too. Bear with me. In he memory Harry once saw, a hook nosed man is yelling at a woman while a boy with greasy hair sits in the corner and cries. It would seem obvious that this is Tobias yelling at Eileen, Snape bearing witness to the hurt. The passage also indicates that the woman is frightened. I have to suggest, mush though I dislike the idea, that this wasn't just a poor relationship, but perhaps an abusive one. It certainly fills in the gap as to why he detested his father and preferred his mother, despite the fact that they both screamed at each other. Awkward though it is, it fills a vital gap.

I don't remember Eileen showing fright - was it the language used? I will look it up if you don't remember. If that was the case, I would agree there was likely abuse going on. But there was at least verbal abuse and it obviously had a great impact on Snape, he was in the corner crying. That kind of thing is emotionally dreadful for a child. I have always said that Snape's home life was miserable in that regard.

Also, the issue of his clothing. He is noted as looking "not well cared for", indicating either that the Snape's were either neglectful parents (which would also explain how he got into the dark arts, pure boredom and anger), or just plain caught in a poverty trap. The fact that they lived near a textile mill might indicate that Tobias worked there. Now, this is a bit far fetched, but in the 1960s, quite a few areas in Britain were actually hit with Depression resulting from closing mills. If you're to assume that JK Rowling knew this and used it as a backdrop, then the poverty looks likely, and his mother was a big part of his choices. It also could prove the idea that the marriage staled as a direct result of this tough time, but that is, entirely conjecture. Sensible, but it is pushing the bar out into real world terms.

Well I think the idea they were poor is a given. The clothes don't do it for me because all wizards dress weird and Eileen may have done it to spite her husband. But it is more likely that they simply couldn't afford new clothes and he wore his parent's handme downs, mostly not fitting well. They lived on 'the wrong side of the tracks' which usually means poor. And also, Snape had at least one of his mum's old books, maybe more, likely to save money in as far as buying them. That particular book (HBP) wouldn't be needed for some time, but I would imagine, not having much money, things that could be passed down would be like in the Weasley household.

Which it didn't. I admit this, and though I'm not really seeking an excuse, I can lay it down to the fact that he had seen quite enough bullying. And anyway, his mother had already (perhaps) told him they weren't worth his time. He believed her. One of his first bad choices in his chldhood that echoed outward.

Well, I do actually see your point. That perhaps he could himself have done more to stop it. On a personal basis, from past experiences, I know that I would have done what he did and ran away, if that is what he did. Overall it made me more outspoken and benefited me. I don't take that kind of thing anymore, I don't believe in it. To this end, and feel free to contradict, you won't hurt my feelings as I would assume I won't hurt yours (btw, that guy sounds fantastically like a friend of mine!), I don't think anybody has a right to pick on someone else, for whatever reason or to whatever end. It's something I just do not do and something that, unless in genuine good spirited fun (obviously), I would not condone.

This is where I often lose people in conversation regarding Snape's young life. Kids laugh at other kids when they look weird. That is just what they do. That is not a justification at all - it is a fact of life. You have maybe 20% of all kids who are total goody-two shoes (a guess for an example) - and then you have another 65% - the majority - who are going to do things that are considered, bad, wrong and irrational.

Kids steal from the cookie jar; they use their father's tools or try flying down the stairs like superman, or draw on the television set, or pull their sister's hair; and girls too, they test their mother's face makeup stuff and lots of the same little stuff boys do. ALL of this is wrong or bad or nuts, none of it is justified because "all kids do it" - but it is a fact of life that we have to accept, like it or not. That includes making fun of other kids, especially weird ones (but not only weird ones). That includes putting salt in your friends lemonaid, calling your neighbor you don't like (for god knows what ridiculous reason) a bug face because his nose is flat. And then there are 15% that get into crazier mischief - setting their sister's hair on fire or busting out windows in the house and the like.

Kids from ALL of these groups grow up and grow out of the behavior, from the goody two shoes (who may go bad or stay good) to the horrible little delinquent kids (who may go good or get worse) to the majority (who may go whatever :lol:). You get the picture. So in stating how kids are, I am not justifying their behavior at all. I am just saying what happens and what Snape likely faced from muggles. So his response is what would be important here because the kids are going to act like kids unless he runs into a bunch of goody two shoes (which it doesn't sound like he did - not to mention there are only usually a couple in every neighborhood :lol:) And again, Snape could respond distinctly if he wanted to. He proved that with Lily. He was willing with her because she was 'magic' - well that was his perogative, but he had to face the taunting and laughter of the other kids if he wasn't willing to make that effort with them. That doesn't make the other kids right, they should ALL be goody two shoes, but alas, that is not how the world is.

Again, I entirely agree with you that this was what Snape thought and why he didn't compensate for his overall awkwardness in any way. But it doesn't justify making him feel awful ;).

Right as I explained above, it is not about justification, it is about facts of life. And also, Snape was a little boy too - we are not talking about Snape being culpable here for reacting to the children like he did. His response was not about justifiication either - it is simply the way some kids respond. Snape had the added problem of his mum's (or books) influence which made him look down on those kids - and when he first ventured out, he may have thought to give them a chance. But the moment they laughed, apparently his feelings about Muggles kicked in and his response was not to befriend - or even try. Again - only with those kids cuz they were muggles - but with Lily he was willing to put effort into befriending her, despite her initial disdainful response to him.

We are 90% in agreeement. Here is where 5 percent of it is. I think he had more bad influences than good in his early life, when a person is at their most "influencable" (see, I made up a word too... ;)). His mother, his father, the Muggle Kids, in direct juxtaposition with Lily, arguably the only friend he made. I just think it lacks balance and came too late.

Originally Posted by Zgirnius: Canon is that Sirius was less isolated than Sev. He had an extemded family with which he is known to have socialized, and it included members his mother ended up disowning for having views contrary to her Pureblood views. This included an uncle who left him an inheritance, and a favorite cousin who became a "blood traitor". It is reasonable to suppose these contrary influences to his mother were present throughout his life, even in early childhood. So there is a contrast of circumstances between the two charactes as well as one of outcome.

But then how do I justify Sirius? Like Zara (whose quote is also there), I figured he had good influences of his aunt and uncle. But the thing is, if Andromeda was prattling off a bunch of anti-Black beliefs, they would not have her over much, nor would they approve of either of their children going to her home. So she couldn't have been around all that much. And as for his uncle; Sirius was surprised that his uncle had left him money. So he couldn't have had a great relationship with him or the legacy would have been understandable to him. In any case, he certainly was inculcated with more negative beliefs (defined Slytherin/Voldemort/pureblood ideologies) than anything else. So environment is not entirely relevant - although it is to some degree as we see Sirius had a recklessness and a dangerous attitude at times. But he was also a rebel and that may have played into it also.

My only point is that while Snape had a bad influence at home in that respect, he also didn't have whatever spark Sirius had (rebel or whatever) that would make him choose a house other than Slytherin (he's like Draco in that regard). As such, he becomes surrounded by people who are thinking like him at that time. While that would influence him; his beliefs and such would influence those he was around too (his housemates). So it was like a two-way (or multiway) influence. Contrast Sirius who did not want to be surrounded by those people (like his parents) and so he wasn't. So even with the influences, there is something autonomous still going on there in my view, that also works as a determining factor.

Yep. He made his own choices. His own decisions, and I think he answered for them in the worst possible way. Stuck forever in a life he never truly chose. Half monk half assassin. Noone to love, to be with, no real life to lead. Stuck in the shadows to protect a boy whose father had often bullied Snape for fun. And that can't be justified for James either. To him, it was just fun.

It is funny because I used to think of Harry's parents collectively as "his parents"; but after the books, I have suddenly found myself defending them so much, I feel like I am their biggest fans individually. :lol:. And the truth is, I am not, except in terms of them being Harry's parents.

But here again I would have to disagree. Here is my view which is important so you know where I am coming from with respect to Snape's development: James hexed people for fun he was a prankster - he'd do all that George and Fred did. Hex to make people's heads grow (eh-hem, Harry and the toe nails, ring a bell?), hex hair all over someone's body, etc. It was for a laugh and he grew out of that as most kids we saw did (unless they were Fred and George and made a business out of it :lol:). That we learn in OOTP. In addition, he'd hex people that molest him; this is if you called him a pansy, he'd make your head grow, but that was not entirely for fun because there was an element of revenge involved (eh-hem, Hermione punching Draco in the nose, ring a bell?). That we learn in OOTP SWM when Lily yells it at him (hex people that molest you). So James is not alone in this behavior, but he did do it.

Now we get to Snape. I have no idea why it is thought that James hexed Snape purely for fun. They were enemies - dire enemies. Snape created a spell marked "for enemies" - James threatened to pants him in addition to levicorpus - Snape hexed James every opportunity in 7th - and James never took it lying down. Sirius told us in OOTP that one reason James disliked Snape was because he was 'up to his ears in the dark arts' - well that is all the outward behavior Snape did in that regard and the things he said ('mudblood') and such. JKR told us that James thought Snape liked Lily, and despite the fact that their relationship never went anywhere, Snape's merely liking the same girl he fancied, and being friends with her, played into his feelings about Snape. Remus remarked to Sirius, 'did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?' - meaning they had encounters beyond SWM. Snape followed them around trying to get them in trouble and followed Lupin specifically. This was a full blown enemyship! (my new word for the post :lol:)

Knowing all of that, can you really say that James hexed Snape merely for fun? He wasn't feeling very 'fun' inside, imo. And I don't think Snape hexed James for "fun" either. That was not what was going on there to me. There was much more to it. Even in SWM, we see James and Sirius talking about starting up things with Snape; there was nothing "fun" about the way they approached the situation. They weren't laughing and joking and deciding which spell they might use for a bit of careless 'fun'. It was overtly clear to me that they saw Snape as their enemy and fully intended to start things up with a boy they strongly disliked. While the spells James used were "funny" - he wasn't doing it merely because issuing some spell would be fun. He was doing it because issuing a spell against Snape was desired. "Fun" imo, does not include having vindictive feelings and strong dislike pulsing through your body while your having it. "Fun" is relaxing, enjoyable and having a good time. So I would disagree on that basis. To me, this was not just for fun, nor because Snape molested him once - this was dislike and an ongoing feud for James (and Snape as well), imo.

The fact that this affected Snape for the rest of his life indicates that the bullying really and truly did get to him, even from Sirius, who was not the one who won Lily. The entire system of bad treatment affected him mentally for a long time. He was still vindictive in the 90s, almost twenty years down the line.

Here you lose me too. Sirius too was involved (although I didn't speak in terms of him, with the exception of the feelings about Lily, I felt he was similar to James). Sirius held onto his grudge against Snape on into adulthood just as Snape did against him (and James). Thus, Snape's bullying really did get to him also, affecting him the rest of his life. It affected him mentally for a long time - he was also still vindictive nearly 20 years down the line. Thus where are we at with this reasoning? Unless Sirius was faking it (which I don't believe he was), then he had as much to feel vindictive about regarding the past as Snape did. Sirius didn't constantly deride Snape out of the blue with Harry (meaning only when Snape came up did he do that), so we didn't get to know all of his background feelings about Snape. But Snape did do this, he brought up James a lot - and by inference Sirius, so we understand how he was thinking. Nonetheless, their feelings were mutual at that late date - so I have a hard time understanding the idea that Snape had it any worse then Sirius at Hogwarts with respect to their ongoing feud.

I concede that this wasn't really the power I meant. Imeant in the more general sense, despite everything he had been told and taught, that they were inferior to him, and that he had nothing to desire or wish for from them, Snape actually found himself envious, greedy and possessed by desire and jealousy. That, to me, grants them huge power, not in the physical sense, but in Snape's head.

That is what I referred to as well. We agree. :tu:

I honestly don't think it even struck him. That went against every testament he had heard, everything that had been pushed into him since childhood, every single iota of knowledge in his head pointed elsewhere, and yes, this was due to his own choices. But I think he was so demented in seeking power that he forgot what it was. It didn't strike him at all that he stood a better chance with her out of the Death Eaters. In this way, I do consider him a victim of circumstance. He should have been able to break free, but I imagine the safe feeling of backup, unknown to him before Hogwarts, prevented that. He was certainly not unintelligent, but rather misconstrued the entire thing, from the bottom up.

Right, I don't think he considered it either - or he considered and rejected it. But my only point was that it was there for him to see. His response to seeing it would be his decision. Same with Lily and "John Doe good boy of Hogwarts". All the influences that surrounded Snape at Hogwarts that were good - these are the ones that he had to choose to ignore, imo.

And that is exactly why I see him as a middling grey. He worshipped the ground she walked on. It almost drove him insane. There was nothing he could do and no way to win, but to give his worthless life to watching over someone with a value system much more honorable than his own. He saw in Harry Potter only what he expected to see- a chrome copy of his father, untrue though this was. But he did give that life. He was so selfish and so arrogant that all he ever cared about was himself, yes?

Then to me, he did make a huge sacrifice. He gave up the thing he loved most- himself- to try to atone for his decisions. The comprehension came too late.

Well I respect your view, but I don't agree that he "gave up" himself altogether. He would have gone to Azkaban if it weren't for Dumbledore, so he exchanged Azkaban for working at Hogwarts and helping Dumbledore. That was not a decision that was his to make and so he didn't really give up himself in that light. Not many people would have chosen Azkaban instead, imo... It did mean he was not literally free to do as he wanted and so he did lose a part of himself there, but it wasn't 'given' imo.

If you think about it, Bella and the DEs were still in prison when Voldemort returned. Hence, Snape would have been also. So when Snape said he didn't "run" like Kardakoff, it is true; but if he had, he'd of had 2 people looking for him: Voldemort AND Dumbledore. Neither very happy campers. And we saw that Kardakoff (I may be misspelling that) got killed in the end for trying to run. So again, Snape had no choice but to spy as Dumbledore wanted. That is why I remain unconvinced about the "dutiful Snape" point of view. He was brave to do it and it was a good thing, but he had no choice in the matter.

Best conversation I've had all night, quite frankly.:relax:

Ditto. :tu:

So again, Snape had no choice but to spy as Dumbledore wanted. That is why I remain unconvinced about the "dutiful Snape" point of view. He was brave to do it and it was a good thing, but he had no choice in the matter.

But this is only true prior to Dumbledore's death. After Dumbledore died, Snape had all choice in the world, in fact, it would have been easier for him to return to Voldemort's side. Everybody on the good side believed him to be a traitor and hated him, while Voldemort rewarded him and gave him the job of the Headmaster. Also, Voldie had taken over the Wizarding World, and the bad guys seemed to have won. It would have been very easy for Snape to completely return to their side, and the only reason he didn't, could have been out of duty for Lily and Dumbledore.

Sirius held onto his grudge against Snape on into adulthood just as Snape did against him (and James). Thus, Snape's bullying really did get to him also, affecting him the rest of his life. It affected him mentally for a long time - he was also still vindictive nearly 20 years down the line. Thus where are we at with this reasoning? Unless Sirius was faking it (which I don't believe he was), then he had as much to feel vindictive about regarding the past as Snape did.bold mine

Where in canon is it given that Snape bullied Sirius so much that Sirius was deeply wounded/affected and he could not get over the hate he had for Snape ?

I always thought that Sirius had that hatred for Snape, because of James and because Snape was a Slytherin. Sirius took James's side in the fight for Lily IMO. I am begining to think that Lily never allowed the Marauders talk ill of Snape nor hex him (while in School, for they may not have met each other later), so I think James was quite jealous of Snape and Sirius hated Snape for James. And it continued all his (Sirius's) life IMO.

Where in canon is it given that Snape bullied Sirius so much that Sirius was deeply wounded/affected and he could not get over the hate he had for Snape ?

Canon actually implies that it was the other way around. :lol:

I agree, Priya, that Sirius disliked Snape and treated him the way he did even into adulthood because Snape was a Slytherin. Though I dont think I agree with your expansion of that idea.

I've mentioned this on the Sirius thread, but my view is that Snape became to Sirius a symbol of the family he detested. Snape was not only a Slytherin, but also held the same views. So when Sirius needed an outlet for his rage at the family, Snape was handy.

When they become adults, things change. Being stuck in his childhood home, Sirius grows restless and angry. He wants to fight a DE. IMO, in his mind, he creates that DE he can lash out at in the form of Snape. That's why he refuses to trust him: if he does, he can no longer pick a fight and has to once again sit at home stewing in bad memories.


ETA: Wow, my computer went crazy on me halfway through typing this post. I got the rest in, though. :tu:

Canon actually implies that it was the other way around. :lol:

That's what I feel too.

I agree, Priya, that Sirius disliked Snape and treated him the way he did even into adulthood because Snape was a Slytherin. Though I dont think I agree with your expansion of that idea.

I got on to this kind of thinking, mainly because we don't see Sirius, who hated Slytherin and all that he thought that House stood for, attacking Avery and Mulciber, who were actually doing what he ran away from his home to escape. Practising dark magic. Sirius thought his family was the darkest ever, and yet there is no mention that he went after Slytherins in general (Avery, Mulciber, Regulus, Lucius and so on, though Lucius would have left Hogwarts 2-3 years after Snape and Sirius started School) or he went after those who practised the dark arts IMO.

We know Sirius hated Snape, we know he loved James and I just presumed he took James's side. James, once he fell for Lily, I think took the hex wars to a different level, with Sirius by his side and Remus and Peter as support, and Snape rose to same level, when he realised James fancied Lily and his anger and jealousy must have grown when he suspected lily to also fancy James IMO.

I also assumed Lily did not speak much about Snape and also did not encourage the Marauders to hex Snape or make fun of him in her presence, because Sirius once he escapes Azkaban (in GOF especially) does not know anything at all about Snape. Which he should have had lily been open with the Marauders about her relationship with Snape IMO.

Secondly in OOTP, Sirius says that Lily never knew about their hex wars (james never took Snape on dates), implying that she would not have approved IMO.

That told me 2 things. One it was not defence most of the times when they met Snape, because then all they had to tell Lily was that they only retaliated not attacked; she would not have been able to say anything, and second they knew nothing about Snape and lily's friendship, which was why the hex wars never abated even in their 7th year IMO.

James was jealous because Lily would probably not laugh at what a greasy git Snape was, even after she broke off with him, and Snape was jealous because James had won Lily's heart, something he had failed to do IMO.

I've mentioned this on the Sirius thread, but my view is that Snape became to Sirius a symbol of the family he detested. Snape was not only a Slytherin, but also held the same views. So when Sirius needed an outlet for his rage at the family, Snape was handy.

I think this is also possible. :tu:

Maybe they just disliked each other instantly (on that train) and this dislike, fuelled by their Houses' rivalry and opposing sides in the emerging war, magnified and became integral part of their characters. Of course Severus believing Sirius to be the cause of Lily's death must have turned the dislike into full-blown hatred - and this rarely changes back.

I think that train meeting was more for James/Snape than for Snape/Sirius, though Snape/Sirius also did not get off on the right foot. The first thing we see there is how James looked well cared for, even adored, unlike Snape and that James and Snape did not get along with each other from their very first meeting, and at the same time James and Sirius hit off from the moment they saw each other IMO.

This dislike proabably turned into hatred when James fell for Lily. Sirius hated Snape because he was a Slytherin and because he was friends with Lily, whom James loved and also because James hated and was jealous of Snape IMO.

I've left out the paragraphs that I agree with. ;)

Ditto. We don't want to be here all day now, do we? ;)

I would elaborate to add that his 'comparisons' were likely negative ones....... I feel the parents (inlcuding Snape's) engendered their dislike for the rival house because how else would they take that view? And again, Snape could have read about it rather than heard it from Eileen, but JKR was pretty consistent with the parent's influence thing.

Yep, I agree with all of that for sure. And she was pretty consistent, so at least we agree that Eileen did play a huge role in engendering a prejudice that stayed with Snape for the best part of 20 odd years.

I don't remember Eileen showing fright - was it the language used? I will look it up if you don't remember. If that was the case, I would agree there was likely abuse going on. But there was at least verbal abuse and it obviously had a great impact on Snape, he was in the corner crying.

Took me ages to find this... "A hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner". I take the idea that she was scared from the word "cowering, and I do think that it's a fair analysis.

Well I think the idea they were poor is a given. The clothes don't do it for me because all wizards dress weird and Eileen may have done it to spite her husband. But it is more likely that they simply couldn't afford new clothes and he wore his parent's handme downs, mostly not fitting well. They lived on 'the wrong side of the tracks' which usually means poor. And also, Snape had at least one of his mum's old books, maybe more, likely to save money in as far as buying them. That particular book (HBP) wouldn't be needed for some time, but I would imagine, not having much money, things that could be passed down would be like in the Weasley household.


With you on all of this paragraph too. It does indicate to me though, that he was doubly vindictive in light of his own circumstances. The Muggle kids could laugh and point, and despite the fact that he was raised to feel superior to them, they had it all and he had nothing. I understand his long lives bitterness in this regard.

This is where I often lose people in conversation regarding Snape's young life. Kids laugh at other kids when they look weird. That is just what they do. That is not a justification at all - it is a fact of life.

It is a fact of life that we have to accept, like it or not. That includes making fun of other kids, especially weird ones (but not only weird ones)

So you figure that Snape just should have moved on and accepted the entire thing? I rather think that would amount to losing face and abjectly giving in, which is something he really didn't want to do. He did go about making himself feel better in the wrong way, but I do think that he is justified in doing this as a result of every bad things that happened. We have pointed out that there are more than one or two. Even in the real world, horrible statistic though this is, one in eight abused children because abusers themselves. I think that stands up quite well here, and though it's not "justification" in terms of me thinking that it's alright, because it isn't, it does provide a justified answer as to why he did turn out this way. See where I'm coming from? It's not that I think what he did was forgiveable or alright. It's a different justification.

And again, Snape could respond distinctly if he wanted to. He proved that with Lily. He was willing with her because she was 'magic' - well that was his perogative, but he had to face the taunting and laughter of the other kids if he wasn't willing to make that effort with them.

I'll add weight and argument to this. I agree with you quite completely, but I think that Lily was quite the exception to his thinking. Arguably, she was the first magical child he knew, and this explains why he chose to go along with her. But I had to suggest that perhaps this was also Snape's first crush. He fancied the pants off of her! I think that this confused and intrigued him, likely as it did the rest of us at that age, and I argue that even had it been a muggle he had fallen for, his attitude might have changed. It was a very important turning point. He was always quite careful not to reveal the worst of himself around her. Sure, they had small tiffs and fights, but they both moved on from it. He rarely used the word "mudblood", and he chose to hurt Petunia (if he did, and I do think he did), because she disapproved of him being with Lily, the one person he actually adored. He also associated with Petunia his anti Muggle feelings.

But then how do I justify Sirius? Like Zara (whose quote is also there), I figured he had good influences of his aunt and uncle. But the thing is, if Andromeda was prattling off a bunch of anti-Black beliefs, they would not have her over much, nor would they approve of either of their children going to her home. So she couldn't have been around all that much. And as for his uncle; Sirius was surprised that his uncle had left him money. So he couldn't have had a great relationship with him or the legacy would have been understandable to him. In any case, he certainly was inculcated with more negative beliefs (defined Slytherin/Voldemort/pureblood ideologies) than anything else. So environment is not entirely relevant - although it is to some degree as we see Sirius had a recklesness and a dangerous attitude at times. But he was also a rebel and that may have played into it also.

Though I do agree with you, I think Sirius would have seen more of Andromeda as a child. She was only disowned when she married Ted Tonks. I imagine before that she held her own within the family line. I agree that this isn't the biggest positive influence in the world, but I do imagine that he saw something in her attitude that he liked. It is stated that she was his favourite cousin.

But here again I would have to disagree. Here is my view which is important so you know where I am coming from with respect to Snape's development: James hexed people for fun he was a prankster - he'd do all that George and Fred did. Hex to make people's heads grow (eh-hem, Harry and the toe nails, ring a bell?), hex hair all over someone's body, etc. It was for a laugh and he grew out of that as most kids we saw did (unless they were Fred and George and made a business out of it :lol:). That we learn in OOTP. In addition, he'd hex people that molest him; this is if you called him a pansy, he'd make your head grow, but that was not entirely for fun because there was an element of revenge involved (eh-hem, Hermione punching Draco in the nose, ring a bell?). That we learn in OOTP SWM when Lily yells it at him (hex people that molest you). So James is not alone in this behavior, but he did do it.

Now we get to Snape. I have no idea why it is thought that James hexed Snape purely for fun. They were enemies - dire enemies. Snape created a spell marked "for enemies" - James threatened to pants him in addition to levicorpus - Snape hexed James every opportunity in 7th - and James never took it lying down. Sirius told us in OOTP that one reason James disliked Snape was because he was 'up to his ears in the dark arts' - well that is all the outward behavior Snape did in that regard and the things he said ('mudblood') and such. JKR told us that James thought Snape liked Lily, and despite the fact that their relationship never went anywhere, Snape's merely liking the same girl he fancied, and being friends with her, played into his feelings about Snape. Remus remarked to Sirius, 'did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?' - meaning they had encounters beyond SWM. Snape followed them around trying to get them in trouble and followed Lupin specifically. This was a full blown enemyship! (my new word for the post :lol:)

Do I have to make a new word again so too? ;)
This is basically where we come to disagree. James Potter was flawed too. It has been stated that he categorically hexed others, simply because he could.

I agree with you that they were dire enemies. But I blame that on James Potter. I know that there'll be outcry, but my reading of the canon is as follows. Severus Snape walked into a carriage on a train, sat with his best friend and said "You'd better be in Slytherin." James Potter interrupted, though it truly was none of his business since he knew neither Lily or Snape, and said "Slytherin? Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to Sirius. This proves that he was the person who was first both cruel and vindictive. Harry himself noticed that James came across as being well cared for, adored, and he immediately contrasted this with the conspicuousness that Snape did not share this good fortune. This is the moment when they became enemies.

Knowing all of that, can you really say that James hexed Snape merely for fun? He wasn't feeling very 'fun' inside, imo. And I don't think Snape hexed James for "fun" either. That was not what was going on there to me. There was much more to it.

In the sense of a big picture, no. They both did it because they disliked each other intensely, and were both entirely to blame for their own choices. But in the smaller picture sense, James did clearly get a sick pleasure out of doing it, and frequently appears to have done it when there was no necessity to defend himself, merely to add excitement to the situation, as we saw following their DADA OWL. James actually remarked to Sirius that things were going to get livelier, and he said it when he saw Snape. I'm sure Snape also highly enjoyed tormenting James, but something tells me that it wasn't so much for fun, but rather for vengeance and retribution, in the same way he hurt James Potter that day with a cutting curse. He would have been expelled if he used Dark Magic just for fun, and he would have known that and been careful. A few hexes here and there would have been okay, but dark curses would certainly have aroused suspicion, and from what we know, Snape was not a poor or uncooperative student.

Unless Sirius was faking it (which I don't believe he was), then he had as much to feel vindictive about regarding the past as Snape did. Sirius didn't constantly deride Snape out of the blue with Harry (meaning only when Snape came up did he do that), so we didn't get to know all of his background feelings about Snape. But Snape did do this, he brought up James a lot - and by inference Sirius, so we understand how he was thinking. Nonetheless, their feelings were mutual at that late date - so I have a hard time understanding the idea that Snape had it any worse then Sirius at Hogwarts with respect to their ongoing feud.

Ah, but Sirius wasn't humiliated in front of the girl he liked. That's the only difference. Sirius disliked Snape because Snape reminded him of his own family, and that stuck for life.

Right, I don't think he considered it either - or he considered and rejected it. But my only point was that it was there for him to see. His response to seeing it would be his decision. Same with Lily and "John Doe good boy of Hogwarts". All the influences that surrounded Snape at Hogwarts that were good - these are the ones that he had to choose to ignore, imo.

I do see where you get the idea from, truly I do. But I wonder are you underestimating the sheer influence the Death Eater crowd had. The chances are that they were a rather large clique, everybody knew about it. They were again the first people Snape met in school, the first people he got to know, and as a Slytherin, resulting from his mother's lessons in life, he thought himself superior to pretty much anybody else. I'm not sure that there was a lot of good influence in that group. Everybody else mingled, that group by definition didn't, so why would he? I know that it was his choice to, but it would never have occurred to him as a sensible option.

Well I respect your view, but I don't agree that he "gave up" himself altogether. He would have gone to Azkaban if it weren't for Dumbledore, so he exchanged Azkaban for working at Hogwarts and helping Dumbledore. That was not a decision that was his to make and so he didn't really give up himself in that light. Not many people would have chosen Azkaban instead, imo... It did mean he was not literally free to do as he wanted and so he did lose a part of himself there, but it wasn't 'given' imo.

You don't agree that he could have simply stayed with the death eaters? It was 1980 when he heard that prophecy (or late 79), and immediately he set about trying to make things better. He finally saw sense and went to Dumbledore, despite the fact that the thought of it terrified him, as we saw in the flashback section of the final book. It was entirely his decision to make. Indeed, if he were a true die hard, as all assumed, he would have been like Bellatrix and Barty Crouch Jr. He would have taken the term in Azkaban. So if you suggest that he wouldn't have, that indicates already that he had always had slight doubts, and that he did indeed make the choice to see Dumbledore. Nobody forced him down that path, it was the most unexpected thing he could have done. Equally, if he would have taken the terms in Azkaban, then he just as individually made the decision to meet Dumbledore. He gave his promise in 1981, November 1st, 1981, I think, that he would protect Harry Potter at all costs and always be loyal to Dumbledore. He did not have to do this. It was a choice he made consciously thinking about Lily Potter.

If you think about it, Bella and the DEs were still in prison when Voldemort returned. Hence, Snape would have been also. So when Snape said he didn't "run" like Kardakoff, it is true; but if he had, he'd of had 2 people looking for him: Voldemort AND Dumbledore. Neither very happy campers. And we saw that Kardakoff (I may be misspelling that) got killed in the end for trying to run. So again, Snape had no choice but to spy as Dumbledore wanted. That is why I remain unconvinced about the "dutiful Snape" point of view. He was brave to do it and it was a good thing, but he had no choice in the matter.

Yep, it's Karkaroff. But I know who you mean, which is the important thing. I don't see why Dumbledore would have been looking for him, or indeed, Voldemort. He called, Snape didn't come at first, and Voldemort doubted Snape's position. Dumbledore would have severed all ties, and decided that the best of Snape wasn't worth keeping. But true to his word, at the hardest time possible, Snape fulfilled this promise. He never had to. He could have ran and faced death, or he could have returned to Voldemort and taken punishment. If he had been a die hard Death Eater, a bit of punishment wouldn't have gone astray. I think he had every choice in the matter. If he hated it so much, why not be punished or die? It must have been just as difficult for him to stay with Dumbledore and act as a double agent, But he did maintain it,even when it became quite ridiculous.

To add to this, and as a testament to what he was willing to do, at the beginning of Deathly Hallows, it is shown that Snape is the one who blew of George's ear. If he were feeling even slightly vindictive, this would have made sense. But later we're shown that he was, in fact, aiming at the Death Eater's hand in front of him, who was trying to kill George. Dumbledore had told him to play his part to perfection, and Snape simply couldn't do that. He made the choice to attempt to stop the Death Eater beside him. Why? What did he possibly owe that he felt he could not allow one of the Order to die? He made the choice to be a part of it and he clearly wasn't at all drawn to Voldemort at this time. Though still not a nice person, Snape did actually redeem himself in small moments moreso than large.

But this is only true prior to Dumbledore's death. After Dumbledore died, Snape had all choice in the world, in fact, it would have been easier for him to return to Voldemort's side. Everybody on the good side believed him to be a traitor and hated him, while Voldemort rewarded him and gave him the job of the Headmaster. Also, Voldie had taken over the Wizarding World, and the bad guys seemed to have won. It would have been very easy for Snape to completely return to their side, and the only reason he didn't, could have been out of duty for Lily and Dumbledore.

This is also entirely true. Snape did make these choices, he was not forced into them. If it meant nothing to him, he could easily have deferred. But he didn't. Adding to this, and because I've just refreshed the original page and seen new posts, I completely concur with Yoana, The_Green_Woods and ignisia. Their points are all raised in this, and I do think they deserve credit for getting them out there ahead of me.

No new word for the Worditorium in this one... Maybe next time? :lol:

Took me ages to find this... "A hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner". I take the idea that she was scared from the word "cowering, and I do think that it's a fair analysis.

Ah yeah, that is what I recalled too. I imagined Tobias acting much like Snape did as an adult (hence his father's influence). The distinction was that Eileen was a witch, so she was not powerless against her husband, but instead had complete advantage over him. The Ministry would not condone her using magic against him in self-defense of course. So I understood her to be cowering away from his venemous speech in reaction, rather than using magic against him, because he was remaining verbal in his abusive speech. Still, it would have a poor affect on Snape, which is why he was crying. If Tobias became physical, imo, so would Eileen - and that might have happened. That could related in young Snape's mind as wizards being more powerful in the end and Muggles being useless, for all their attempts at being powerful.

With you on all of this paragraph too. It does indicate to me though, that he was doubly vindictive in light of his own circumstances. The Muggle kids could laugh and point, and despite the fact that he was raised to feel superior to them, they had it all and he had nothing. I understand his long lives bitterness in this regard.

I don't know if young Snape felt they had it all. I would rather think he felt they had friendship and he did not. I think that would incur some envy and bitterness. But again, Snape had the potential to be a "people person" :lol:, for lack of a better term. He did this with Lily - he ignored what she thought about him at first when she walked away with her nose in the air and was able to befriend her. So he had the potential to make friends if he wished to put the effort forward. But I think he believed these kids were 'muggles' and not worth the effort in his opinion. And note that he could have made relations easier with and for Lily if he had been nicer to Petunia; but he wasn't interested in doing that either because she was 'just a muggle'. In the same way he was able to befriend Lily, he could have made the attempt with Petunia as they were both at first eschewing him. This, especially once he'd befriended Lily and Petunia came around, clearly interested in why Lily was speaking to the boy. But Snape spoke nastily to her and Petunia answered in kind and the situation was hopeless.

So you figure that Snape just should have moved on and accepted the entire thing? I rather think that would amount to losing face and abjectly giving in, which is something he really didn't want to do.

I don't figure anything. Snape was a little kid and you don't know how they will respond to things, imo. In general, they all respond distinctly and too unexpectedly to try and contend that they "should have" done anything in my judgment. To me, we can only speak in possibilities.

He did go about making himself feel better in the wrong way, but I do think that he is justified in doing this as a result of every bad things that happened.

Here I think we are speaking about Snape as an older teen. The older you get, the more reasonable your behavior in general (imo), and the more responsibility you take on for your poor choices to me. Kids are usually, but not always very resilient, and they let go of the bad things they did when little tykes as well as the bad things that happened to them with respect to their peers unless it was tremendously catastrophic like a peer threw gasoline on you and set you on fire :lol:. But normally, fights, hair pulling, making you step in poop, and in HP, all those 100's of kids lifted upside down at Hogwarts - that kind of thing one just let's go of on both sides. That is what Snape had a problem doing. That was just his character. We can guess it was all due to his home life that his character formed in the way it did, but that is the best we can do, imo.

We have pointed out that there are more than one or two. Even in the real world, horrible statistic though this is, one in eight abused children because abusers themselves. I think that stands up quite well here, and though it's not "justification" in terms of me thinking that it's alright, because it isn't, it does provide a justified answer as to why he did turn out this way. See where I'm coming from? It's not that I think what he did was forgiveable or alright. It's a different justification.

I respect your view. But you leapt to the conclusion that Snape was abused from our discussion of whether or not Eileen was abused. I do feel we can say that Snape suffered indirect abuse (like when we saw the affect of his father yelling at his mum), but that is distinct from direct abuse. I don't think we know enough to rest all of Snape's subsequent behavior firmly on his home life. Also, I am not sure what you are referring to by "more than one or two" bad things - do you mean before Hogwarts, including after Hogwarts, or his whole life?

I'll add weight and argument to this. I agree with you quite completely, but I think that Lily was quite the exception to his thinking. Arguably, she was the first magical child he knew, and this explains why he chose to go along with her.

Again, this is another assumption. We don't know based on the canon what the lives of young wizard with wizard parents are. We know that Draco met Nott before Hogwarts because JKR told us. But whether Eileen visited old friends with magical children and took Snape along we don't know. Whether they traveled to magical places (like Diagon Alley) and Snape met other magical kids, we don't know. So I don't agree that we can say for certian that is why Snape was so willing to approach Lily. She was the only magical child in his neighborhood, but he never even noticed until he was 10 or so. Had he just started venturing into that area of town? Does that mean he may not have even ever approached the other Muggle children before? Perhaps he never had the experience of other Muggle children laughing at him because he always disdained them too much to approach. That is why I say we are only speaking in possibilities here. And that makes it nearly impossible to hold these things firmly as support of Snape's subsequent behavior.

But I had to suggest that perhaps this was also Snape's first crush. He fancied the pants off of her! I think that this confused and intrigued him, likely as it did the rest of us at that age, and I argue that even had it been a muggle he had fallen for, his attitude might have changed. It was a very important turning point. He was always quite careful not to reveal the worst of himself around her. Sure, they had small tiffs and fights, but they both moved on from it. He rarely used the word "mudblood", and he chose to hurt Petunia (if he did, and I do think he did), because she disapproved of him being with Lily, the one person he actually adored. He also associated with Petunia his anti Muggle feelings.

I think he had a crush on her too. However, I feel it was her ability that attracted him. I agree with you in as far as Petunia.

Though I do agree with you, I think Sirius would have seen more of Andromeda as a child. She was only disowned when she married Ted Tonks. I imagine before that she held her own within the family line. I agree that this isn't the biggest positive influence in the world, but I do imagine that he saw something in her attitude that he liked. It is stated that she was his favourite cousin.

Sirius may have, but again, we make a big assumption if we firmly decide that is what caused him to feel the way he did about his parents and the 'Slytherin way' in general, imo. We simply don't know. It is a possibility though. But as I pointed out, how much he got to see of her is also up in the air due to the way his parents felt about her.

This is basically where we come to disagree. James Potter was flawed too. It has been stated that he categorically hexed others, simply because he could.

I thought I agreed with this :lol:. My first two examples of his behavior showed he hexed others because he could. The first for pure fun and the second because someone molested him in some way.

I agree with you that they were dire enemies. But I blame that on James Potter. I know that there'll be outcry, but my reading of the canon is as follows. Severus Snape walked into a carriage on a train, sat with his best friend and said "You'd better be in Slytherin." James Potter interrupted, though it truly was none of his business since he knew neither Lily or Snape, and said "Slytherin? Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to Sirius. This proves that he was the person who was first both cruel and vindictive. Harry himself noticed that James came across as being well cared for, adored, and he immediately contrasted this with the conspicuousness that Snape did not share this good fortune. This is the moment when they became enemies.

Well we would have to agree to disagree on this. ;) If we speak about it, it should be via owl I think. Also, we should re-read the scene first. From the point Snape enters and Lily is crying - and the remarks Snape's makes to her prior to saying 'she better be in Slytherin'. Note while reading that while the other boys are in conversation, they do appear to pick up on what the other two are saying, although they pay scant attention to them and we can discuss that too.

In the sense of a big picture, no. They both did it because they disliked each other intensely, and were both entirely to blame for their own choices. But in the smaller picture sense, James did clearly get a sick pleasure out of doing it, and frequently appears to have done it when there was no necessity to defend himself, merely to add excitement to the situation, as we saw following their DADA OWL.

We were not shown "frequent" instances, so I am unsure how you reached the conclusion of what James did "frequently". I also don't agree that there was a difference in motivation between any of the participants. Nonetheless, we'd best agree to disagree here and we can take this up in an owl. :lol:.

He would have been expelled if he used Dark Magic just for fun, and he would have known that and been careful. A few hexes here and there would have been okay, but dark curses would certainly have aroused suspicion, and from what we know, Snape was not a poor or uncooperative student.

It became his specialty - he used it that much, whatever amount it takes to become one's specialty in your view. I am certain that most of the hex wars took place away from the probing eyes of the professors. One does not have to use dark magic to get in trouble; all hex wars get you in trouble no matter what you are using.

Ah, but Sirius wasn't humiliated in front of the girl he liked. That's the only difference. Sirius disliked Snape because Snape reminded him of his own family, and that stuck for life.

Here again I feel you are making an assumption. There is no canon to support this idea, although I agree it is a possibility. But we have from Sirius' own words in canon that there was more to it than that. (POA, GoF and OOTP)

I do see where you get the idea from, truly I do. But I wonder are you underestimating the sheer influence the Death Eater crowd had. The chances are that they were a rather large clique, everybody knew about it. They were again the first people Snape met in school, the first people he got to know, and as a Slytherin, resulting from his mother's lessons in life, he thought himself superior to pretty much anybody else. I'm not sure that there was a lot of good influence in that group. Everybody else mingled, that group by definition didn't, so why would he? I know that it was his choice to, but it would never have occurred to him as a sensible option.

No, you misunderstand me. I do think Snape's negative influences would be just as great. My only point was there were other influences around him that he chose to ignore. He ignored Lily, Dumbledore, the Professors and all the students who were "John and Jane Doe, Good Boys of Hogwarts". He didn't ignore his friends which were a part of the dangerous group he hung around; he didn't ignore Voldemort; he didn't ignore his mum and dad; he didn't ignore his enemies (although he misconstrued their good points).

You indicated that Snape didn't mingle - well neither did Draco. Draco disdained everyone who was not a Slytherin. His influences in thinking were all based on what his parents had told him. He too had a myriad of good influences around him and for 6.5 years chose to ignore them. But something sunk in, didn't it? On the tower, Draco couldn't follow through despite all of the bad influences he'd chosen to hang around and allow to influence him. So where did Draco get these "other thoughts"? There was no "good aunt" in his household when he was young - Bella was worse than his parents :lol:. He had no friend like Lily who he loved and listened to and who was in his face showing him another view (as Snape did). I would opine that he had allowed some of the good influences around him at Hogwarts to take root. That is what Snape had the possibility of doing as well, but he didn't, imo.

You don't agree that he could have simply stayed with the death eaters? It was 1980 when he heard that prophecy (or late 79), and immediately he set about trying to make things better. He finally saw sense and went to Dumbledore, despite the fact that the thought of it terrified him, as we saw in the flashback section of the final book. It was entirely his decision to make. Indeed, if he were a true die hard, as all assumed, he would have been like Bellatrix and Barty Crouch Jr. He would have taken the term in Azkaban. So if you suggest that he wouldn't have, that indicates already that he had always had slight doubts, and that he did indeed make the choice to see Dumbledore. Nobody forced him down that path, it was the most unexpected thing he could have done. Equally, if he would have taken the terms in Azkaban, then he just as individually made the decision to meet Dumbledore. He gave his promise in 1981, November 1st, 1981, I think, that he would protect Harry Potter at all costs and always be loyal to Dumbledore. He did not have to do this. It was a choice he made consciously thinking about Lily Potter.

Well you are speaking of a myriad of differing times. Snape wanted Lily safe (for whatever reason) and so he turned sides. That was a choice, but just a mental one because he also remained with Voldemort for the rest of the week (as far as Voldemort knew). So Voldemort was not trying to kill him - nor was Dumbledore. When the Potters died and Voldemort was temporarily out of business, Snape's choices were limited to Azkaban or helping Dumbledore. He chose the latter, but I ask you, is that much of a choice? Azkaban = the next best thing to Death. Many died, most went totally crazy, some went almost totally crazy, and only a few retained some sanity - but everyone was affected and no one wanted to go there. It was not just prison - it was as good as a death sentence. That is what I was referring to.

When Dumbledore died (I wasn't referring to this), Snape could have mentally returned to Voldemort and he chose not to do so. That was good. But if he had, he'd of ended up in a "real" battle with the other professors at the end, possibly losing his life unless he escaped (it was 4 on 1 at one point, but he escaped before the other 3 were able to join in). Voldemort would have still killed him over the Elder Wand and Dumbledore's portrait would have had to get the message to Harry itself. We know that, but Snape didn't, so he made a good choice to stay true to Dumbledore. He couldn't have defied Voldemort without being hunted and killed by Voldemort. I assume by that point, Snape had decided Voldemort was the wrong way to go - so there was no real 'new choice' made at that point, he just carried on. But there was a choice to make a "new decision" (return to Voldemort), so Snape's decision at this point to carry on was a very good one. However, this was not a "new beginning" or a "new path" in my opinion in as far as Snape was concerned. Although it might be seen that way for a reader who did not know what side he was on. So that is my view of the notion you brought up. :)

Yep, it's Karkaroff. But I know who you mean, which is the important thing. I don't see why Dumbledore would have been looking for him, or indeed, Voldemort. He called, Snape didn't come at first, and Voldemort doubted Snape's position. Dumbledore would have severed all ties, and decided that the best of Snape wasn't worth keeping. But true to his word, at the hardest time possible, Snape fulfilled this promise. He never had to. He could have ran and faced death, or he could have returned to Voldemort and taken punishment. If he had been a die hard Death Eater, a bit of punishment wouldn't have gone astray. I think he had every choice in the matter. If he hated it so much, why not be punished or die? It must have been just as difficult for him to stay with Dumbledore and act as a double agent, But he did maintain it,even when it became quite ridiculous.

I am not understanding your point. Imo, Snape didn't have a death wish. He would not choose to die rather than continue working for Dumbledore. The latter was a far better choice in Snape's mind (no matter what side he was on at that point). And as such, he had no choice but to return to Voldemort as Dumbledore asked, imo. He could become a DE again, Voldemort would be happy, but Dumbledore would not - and Snape would lose his position and become a hunted DE like the others. He could have not returned to Voldemort, but Voldemort would have killed him. So I am not seeing the profound choice you indicate here. Snape could choose to die, sure, but that is not a viable choice, imo.

To add to this, and as a testament to what he was willing to do, at the beginning of Deathly Hallows, it is shown that Snape is the one who blew of George's ear. If he were feeling even slightly vindictive, this would have made sense. But later we're shown that he was, in fact, aiming at the Death Eater's hand in front of him, who was trying to kill George. Dumbledore had told him to play his part to perfection, and Snape simply couldn't do that. He made the choice to attempt to stop the Death Eater beside him. Why? What did he possibly owe that he felt he could not allow one of the Order to die? He made the choice to be a part of it and he clearly wasn't at all drawn to Voldemort at this time. Though still not a nice person, Snape did actually redeem himself in small moments moreso than large.

Snape chose to stop the DE using Sectumsempra. Then it could look like he'd been trying to cast that curse at the Order members (to the DEs and Voldemort). That is Snape's mentality at work - all his decision alone. He could have stopped the DE with a stunner as his DE mates were throwing and then carried the DE off as if "saving him". But Snape doesn't think like that as written.

I feel JKR wanted us to know about Sectumsempra being Snape's old specialty, so she wrote it the way she did. But I believe she took into account the circumstances under which she had written it. Thus, the redemptive moment, as you call it, is marred by Snape's character, as are all of his redemptive moments, imo. He also said he no longer watched those die that he could save. But we know that he also tormented those who he could treat indifferently (i.e. the kids and his peers like Tonks). With Snape, his steps forward were all taken along a stairway marred with potholes that he seemed to enjoy shooting into the stairs before stepping into them in my judgment.

This is also entirely true. Snape did make these choices, he was not forced into them. If it meant nothing to him, he could easily have deferred. But he didn't. Adding to this, and because I've just refreshed the original page and seen new posts, I completely concur with Yoana, The_Green_Woods and ignisia. Their points are all raised in this, and I do think they deserve credit for getting them out there ahead of me.

With the exception of Yoana's comment, I fervently disagree with what was said. However, I won't be pulled into a straight out James (Sirius) v. Snape battle in this thread. Our good conversation will be brought to an abrupt end by the moderators if we allow it to fall into that trap. :lol:. Again, I would be happy to discuss these ideas in an owl.

No new word for the Worditorium in this one... Maybe next time? :lol:

:grumble: - we must extend the vocabularium!!! :lol:

Maybe they just disliked each other instantly (on that train) and this dislike, fuelled by their Houses' rivalry and opposing sides in the emerging war, magnified and became integral part of their characters. Of course Severus believing Sirius to be the cause of Lily's death must have turned the dislike into full-blown hatred - and this rarely changes back.

That was my interpretation too. I agree. :tu:

Before I even start (and I know it will take an hour to finish), we will not talk the James-Snape thing any longer in this thread. But we will talk about it, do you hear me?! :D

Their issues will only be referenced here in small tiny doses and they shan't be compared. Maybe. :whistle:

Ah yeah, that is what I recalled too. I imagined Tobias acting much like Snape did as an adult (hence his father's influence). The distinction was that Eileen was a witch, so she was not powerless against her husband, but instead had complete advantage over him. The Ministry would not condone her using magic against him in self-defense of course. So I understood her to be cowering away from his venemous speech in reaction, rather than using magic against him, because he was remaining verbal in his abusive speech. Still, it would have a poor affect on Snape, which is why he was crying. If Tobias became physical, imo, so would Eileen - and that might have happened. That could related in young Snape's mind as wizards being more powerful in the end and Muggles being useless, for all their attempts at being powerful.

Okay, so we're agreed. Snape's childhood basically sucked. His mother had delusions of grandeur and forced an extreme belief into her child. His father was poverty stricken and could have felt quite inadequate by comparison with magic. The family structure fell apart, Eileen and Tobias yelled at each other and could quite feasibly have become violent. Snape bore witness to all of this and it did affect him quite badly. He preferred his mother to his father, who he was glad to evade whenever possible. He became very bitter toward the family dynamic and detested the idea of staying home. That it? Goodie. :tu:

I don't know if young Snape felt they had it all. I would rather think he felt they had friendship and he did not. I think that would incur some envy and bitterness. But again, Snape had the potential to be a "people person" :lol:, for lack of a better term. He did this with Lily - he ignored what she thought about him at first when she walked away with her nose in the air and was able to befriend her. So he had the potential to make friends if he wished to put the effort forward. But I think he believed these kids were 'muggles' and not worth the effort in his opinion. And note that he could have made relations easier with and for Lily if he had been nicer to Petunia; but he wasn't interested in doing that either because she was 'just a muggle'. In the same way he was able to befriend Lily, he could have made the attempt with Petunia as they were both at first eschewing him. This, especially once he'd befriended Lily and Petunia came around, clearly interested in why Lily was speaking to the boy. But Snape spoke nastily to her and Petunia answered in kind and the situation was hopeless.

I agree with every last part of this without contest, except... The first line. When you were 7,8,9,even ten, what was the most important thing? I know that for kids I knew at that stage, it was all about friends. Everybody wanted friends. Being left out of games in a playground is a cruel thing, and it's definitely a very scarring experience. It leaves you isolated and decrepid from a young age. The Muggle kids all had friends. If they laughed at his clothes, theirs were likely different, so they likely weren't as poor as his parents were. They laughed at him and so he didn't like them anyway, and they weren't supposed to laugh at him because his mother had told him that he was superior. I still say, after all of this and agreeing with everything else you said in that paragraph, that he felt a certain degree of envy when he saw the Muggles together, and he felt a certain degree of loss that he had nobody.

I don't figure anything. Snape was a little kid and you don't know how they will respond to things, imo. In general, they all respond distinctly and too unexpectedly to try and contend that they "should have" done anything in my judgment. To me, we can only speak in possibilities.

This is actually a fairly important issue with relation to him, you, and me. Knowing as I do that children sometimes do weird and unexpected things (:D), and knowing that as a child Snape was damaged goods, I see his outlook on life in general as being quite dark. This is in my imagination, of course, but with his home life I know I certainly wouldn't have been a happy chappy, so socially and mentally, it does make sense. I do agree that Snape picked his own options with regard to friends based entirely on his Darcy-esque prejudices, but I don't think either that he could have just tried to join the clique of children who had mocked him. To me, that lacks courage somewhat. Snape arguably never wanted to be with those children in the first place. In fact, I'm sure of it. So why, why would you bother making friends with people you didn't like? This is my point. He would have lost pride (no bad thing admittedly), lost face and lost self respect, whatever little inkling of it he had. This is why I think his own personality wouldn't allow him to appeal to those children for their involvement with him.

Here I think we are speaking about Snape as an older teen. The older you get, the more reasonable your behavior in general (imo), and the more responsibility you take on for your poor choices to me. Kids are usually, but not always very resilient, and they let go of the bad things they did when little tykes as well as the bad things that happened to them with respect to their peers unless it was tremendously catastrophic like a peer threw gasoline on you and set you on fire :lol:. But normally, fights, hair pulling, making you step in poop, and in HP, all those 100's of kids lifted upside down at Hogwarts - that kind of thing one just let's go of on both sides. That is what Snape had a problem doing. That was just his character. We can guess it was all due to his home life that his character formed in the way it did, but that is the best we can do, imo.

I certainly agree that this is him when he is older and that yes, behaviour does become more reasonable. I agree with all of your assertions here, without doubt. Snape should indeed have been able to let go. So why couldn't he? What made his situation so "catastrophic" (nice word, btw!), that he could not do that? As you yourself say, it can all be put down to his home life and the inadequacies in his personal development. It was indeed his character which made him incapable of moving on. And his character, which stayed with him for the rest of his life, I would conclude, arose because he was a victim of circumstance.

I respect your view. But you leapt to the conclusion that Snape was abused from our discussion of whether or not Eileen was abused. I do feel we can say that Snape suffered indirect abuse (like when we saw the affect of his father yelling at his mum), but that is distinct from direct abuse. I don't think we know enough to rest all of Snape's subsequent behavior firmly on his home life. Also, I am not sure what you are referring to by "more than one or two" bad things - do you mean before Hogwarts, including after Hogwarts, or his whole life?

Actually, I didn't. :). Let me explain. The definition of an abused child that I have most often read revolves around different areas. We won't get legal about this, I'll just fire a list at you of things that qualify. His clothes weren't fitted properly, he was unkempt, this counts as physical neglect. Emotionally neglected by his father, who seemed to dislike everything. There was a lack of affection within his family that he bore witness to. Kids mocked him, isolated him, picked on him, teased him, judged him and rejected him, thus invalidating him. If his mother and father did genuinely fight, he saw that too, and that counts as part of the list. See where I'm going? All of those things actually do count. This is heavy discussion though, so we'll move on. We can't blame everything on his home life, no, but being invalidated is, I gather, quite crushing and crude for a kid. These are the more than one or two bad things, even if we do remove the scenario with the children, which is not based entirely on canon, but more on common sense that the two of us added to. But do you see what I meant? :tu:

I think he had a crush on her too. However, I feel it was her ability that attracted him. I agree with you in as far as Petunia.

Though it's true that he might have known other Wizarding kids, and feasible that he grew up with maybe a few, or met a few, she was likely the first one he met that was Muggle born and she captivated him. Or at least, she was the first one he saw the magic in, that's not to say he didn't know others who were also magical. Though she did only catch his attention when she was seen to have magical ability, as he watched her he started to like her. It does state that he had been planning to talk to her for ages and then it didn't go according to plan, making him awkward and uncomfortable. It does sound quite familiar to me, having been on both his and her end of that particular stick at some stage. What drew him more than her magic was herself. I say that taking your point into consideration, regarding the fact that he likely knew other Wizarding children. What made her so special if he had met others?

We were not shown "frequent" instances, so I am unsure how you reached the conclusion of what James did "frequently". I also don't agree that there was a difference in motivation between any of the participants. Nonetheless, we'd best agree to disagree here and we can take this up in an owl. :lol:.

Though I do agree to the owl part, I also concede that frequently was the wrong word. I actually don't recall typing it, or rather, I do, but elsewhere. Confusion, dontcha know. Gets the best of me... quite frequently.. :lol:

It became his specialty - he used it that much, whatever amount it takes to become one's specialty in your view. I am certain that most of the hex wars took place away from the probing eyes of the professors. One does not have to use dark magic to get in trouble; all hex wars get you in trouble no matter what you are using.

All hex wars would get you into trouble, but I imagine more leniency would be applied to someone who tried a bat bogey hex, as opposed to someone who threw the Cruciatus Curse. See what I mean?

No, you misunderstand me. I do think Snape's negative influences would be just as great. My only point was there were other influences around him that he chose to ignore. He ignored Lily, Dumbledore, the Professors and all the students who were "John and Jane Doe, Good Boys of Hogwarts". He didn't ignore his friends which were a part of the dangerous group he hung around; he didn't ignore Voldemort; he didn't ignore his mum and dad; he didn't ignore his enemies (although he misconstrued their good points).

I'm with you on all of this, except that last bit in brackets. He didn't misconstrue their good points, he just didn't want to see them, so he didn't, and that's a bad thing. It wasn't incomprehension, it was a prejudice that prevented him seeing past their bad points, much the same as his attitude to Harry later in life. I know it's rare for me to criticise him, but that is one of these times. Lap it up! :D

As for his choices, we've agreed time and again that these are just warped, illogical and downright idiotic on occasion. We have also agreed though, that this goes much farther back, to the people who taught him the values he internalized.

You indicated that Snape didn't mingle - well neither did Draco. Draco disdained everyone who was not a Slytherin. His influences in thinking were all based on what his parents had told him. He too had a myriad of good influences around him and for 6.5 years chose to ignore them. But something sunk in, didn't it? On the tower, Draco couldn't follow through despite all of the bad influences he'd chosen to hang around and allow to influence him. So where did Draco get these "other thoughts"? There was no "good aunt" in his household when he was young - Bella was worse than his parents :lol:. He had no friend like Lily who he loved and listened to and who was in his face showing him another view (as Snape did). I would opine that he had allowed some of the good influences around him at Hogwarts to take root. That is what Snape had the possibility of doing as well, but he didn't, imo.

Draco=Grey character. :D. I don't know enough about him to determine why he couldn't do it, but I would assume that Dumbledore's flailing figure in front of him shocked him into inertia. I can imagine this happening. A man who had, for six years, been a huge part of all of them, and Draco was expected to remove him. Even Voldemort knew he couldn't do it, he just didn't have it in him. Perhaps all the darkness was spoiled out of him. It also becomes clear that Narcissa Malfoy wasn't quite the vigilante Lucius was, at any rate. She seems much more dulcet, so that might also be an explanation. It does, however, show a vital difference with Snape. Again, we'll owl this one to its limit. *sigh*

So that is my view of the notion you brought up. :)

Sorry not to quote the whole thing, but there are only parts I want to talk about. I was talking about different times, primarily because there were different times. I agree with most of what you said, and my view boils down to this. Snape, admittedly very late in life, did make a number of good decisions and promises. He proved himself as a man of his word, and even Dumbledore said that he didn't truly belong in Slytherin, "perhaps we sort too soon".

I'm willing to accept from canon, Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore, that he was inherently brave, that he gave a lot of his own peace of mind to a flurry of double deals and a half life, and that in the end, the good things he had seen interrupted the bad. He did, finally, finally make a choice that redeemed him, at least to everybody in the book, even, it appears, the Weasleys, who bear to have his name thrust upon a member of their family, even after he blew the ear off of one of them.

He is the only one to be held accountable for his eventual choices, for his eventual decisions. But he cannot be blamed for what he internalized early on. He can, however, be recognised as extremely stubborn, cruel, difficult to deal with, bitter and somewhat isolated even in later years. He's a thoroughly unpleasant, cynical and sarcastic human being with a penchant for antagonistic behaviour, yes. But none of those are his true issue, or why we talk about him. He was morally ambiguous, and that's where it lies.

I am not understanding your point. Imo, Snape didn't have a death wish. He would not choose to die rather than continue working for Dumbledore. The latter was a far better choice in Snape's mind (no matter what side he was on at that point). And as such, he had no choice but to return to Voldemort as Dumbledore asked, imo. He could become a DE again, Voldemort would be happy, but Dumbledore would not - and Snape would lose his position and become a hunted DE like the others. He could have not returned to Voldemort, but Voldemort would have killed him. So I am not seeing the profound choice you indicate here. Snape could choose to die, sure, but that is not a viable choice, imo.

He didn't have a death wish, no. But he was so selfish that all he cared about was himself. He made a tough choice based on everything he had seen and learned, and the only compassionate part of him beat the black bits back, which I think does indicate a sense of light and moral courage. Had he returned to Voldemort, he still would have been a death eater. Dumbledore would have been disappointed, but why hunt just one death eater instead of his master? Dumbledore would have done nothing but cut his losses. He was a strategist, he would have worked beyond it. Sure, he returned when Dumbledore asked. But the hunt can't have bothered him so much- he spent the best part of time since he graduated in a war anyway, why would it start to bother him later on? His choice to join Dumbledore indicates that he wasn't a heartless crook, but that he did have a good streak, which is why it is felt that he redeemed himself. Even Harry thought so.

Snape chose to stop the DE using Sectumsempra. Then it could look like he'd been trying to cast that curse at the Order members (to the DEs and Voldemort). That is Snape's mentality at work - all his decision alone. He could have stopped the DE with a stunner as his DE mates were throwing and then carried the DE off as if "saving him". But Snape doesn't think like that as written.

Good point. :tu: it does show he's smart though. Smarter than me at any rate, eh? ;)

He also said he no longer watched those die that he could save. But we know that he also tormented those who he could treat indifferently (i.e. the kids and his peers like Tonks). With Snape, his steps forward were all taken along a stairway marred with potholes that he seemed to enjoy shooting into the stairs before stepping into them in my judgment.

Nice allegorical moment there at the end :). Aside from not killing and trying not to injure, Snape showed extreme disgust at Dumbledore for putting Snape's own soul at risk just to kill him. We're agreed that he did make the right choices, the only real difference between us is that you don't think he redeemed himself enough.

Sure, he wasn't too much of a nice guy, but neither were Dr. Frankenstein, Hamlet, Macbeth, Shylock, Harry Callahan, Tony Montana, Wolverine, Anakin Skywalker. It's the mark of an antihero, paticularly in post modern fiction, that he has moral ambiguity, was a victim of circumstance, made the right choice too late, is brooding or "dark" in general, and yet still he qualifies through a series of depressive but ultimately redemptive moments. As a literary device, just like Boromir, Snape simply had to die. This adds to the mental redemptive qualities within a book. I only bring this up to partially explain why the world and its mother seems determined to see him in a good light. In the literary sense, that's why. Some things just never change. While he's not the only antihero in the books, that is what makes him grey and dissociative.

:grumble: - we must extend the vocabularium!!! :lol:

Hey now, don't make fun of me for not being able to extend the dictionarium. I'm quite happy with English as it is ;). Must you always need more? :lol:

Before I even start (and I know it will take an hour to finish), we will not talk the James-Snape thing any longer in this thread. But we will talk about it, do you hear me?! :D

Aye aye, Sir! :lol:. I'll collect the points at some point or you can and send an owl.

Okay, so we're agreed. Snape's childhood basically sucked. His mother had delusions of grandeur and forced an extreme belief into her child. His father was poverty stricken and could have felt quite inadequate by comparison with magic. The family structure fell apart, Eileen and Tobias yelled at each other and could quite feasibly have become violent. Snape bore witness to all of this and it did affect him quite badly. He preferred his mother to his father, who he was glad to evade whenever possible. He became very bitter toward the family dynamic and detested the idea of staying home. That it? Goodie. :tu:

Yup. :tu:

I agree with every last part of this without contest, except... The first line. When you were 7,8,9,even ten, what was the most important thing? I know that for kids I knew at that stage, it was all about friends. Everybody wanted friends. Being left out of games in a playground is a cruel thing, and it's definitely a very scarring experience. It leaves you isolated and decrepid from a young age. The Muggle kids all had friends. If they laughed at his clothes, theirs were likely different, so they likely weren't as poor as his parents were. They laughed at him and so he didn't like them anyway, and they weren't supposed to laugh at him because his mother had told him that he was superior. I still say, after all of this and agreeing with everything else you said in that paragraph, that he felt a certain degree of envy when he saw the Muggles together, and he felt a certain degree of loss that he had nobody.

Then we agree. I merely meant he couldn't have believed all these kids had riches and love and "it all" in a literal sense. Some of them were from the same side of the tracks he was on (those he'd most likely see). Their families too would be poor as church mice and Snape would note that easily in comparing them to kids better off across the tracks. But basing it on 'friendship', I agree.

This is actually a fairly important issue with relation to him, you, and me. Knowing as I do that children sometimes do weird and unexpected things (:D), and knowing that as a child Snape was damaged goods, I see his outlook on life in general as being quite dark. This is in my imagination, of course, but with his home life I know I certainly wouldn't have been a happy chappy, so socially and mentally, it does make sense. I do agree that Snape picked his own options with regard to friends based entirely on his Darcy-esque prejudices, but I don't think either that he could have just tried to join the clique of children who had mocked him. To me, that lacks courage somewhat. Snape arguably never wanted to be with those children in the first place. In fact, I'm sure of it. So why, why would you bother making friends with people you didn't like? This is my point. He would have lost pride (no bad thing admittedly), lost face and lost self respect, whatever little inkling of it he had. This is why I think his own personality wouldn't allow him to appeal to those children for their involvement with him.

Right, but I agree Snape didn't want to. My point was that he clearly had the potential within him to put the effort forth if he wanted to because he proved it by doing so with Lily. I also agree that he didn't want to because they were 'just muggles' and he wanted to with Lily because she was different than all of them. In other words, he was willing to put his pride aside at her turning her nose up at him, but not with the other kids - including her sister.

I certainly agree that this is him when he is older and that yes, behaviour does become more reasonable. I agree with all of your assertions here, without doubt. Snape should indeed have been able to let go. So why couldn't he? What made his situation so "catastrophic" (nice word, btw!), that he could not do that? As you yourself say, it can all be put down to his home life and the inadequacies in his personal development. It was indeed his character which made him incapable of moving on. And his character, which stayed with him for the rest of his life, I would conclude, arose because he was a victim of circumstance.

I agree, and I add that all kids were a victim of circumstance in that way. It is just that Snape's circumstances were bad. But where we seem to differ slightly is that I feel Snape carried this attitude, behavior and character with him to Hogwarts. You appear to suggest that he left it behind and took up a whole new set of influences in some cases. But I don't think that is true, I think he carried it with him at all times he was there. That same desire to hurt Petunia with the tree branch due to her attitude is the same desire he would have when faced with those feelings at Hogwarts, imo.

Actually, I didn't. :). Let me explain. The definition of an abused child that I have most often read revolves around different areas. We won't get legal about this, I'll just fire a list at you of things that qualify. His clothes weren't fitted properly, he was unkempt, this counts as physical neglect. Emotionally neglected by his father, who seemed to dislike everything. There was a lack of affection within his family that he bore witness to. Kids mocked him, isolated him, picked on him, teased him, judged him and rejected him, thus invalidating him. If his mother and father did genuinely fight, he saw that too, and that counts as part of the list. See where I'm going? All of those things actually do count. This is heavy discussion though, so we'll move on. We can't blame everything on his home life, no, but being invalidated is, I gather, quite crushing and crude for a kid. These are the more than one or two bad things, even if we do remove the scenario with the children, which is not based entirely on canon, but more on common sense that the two of us added to. But do you see what I meant? :tu:

Ah, so just when he was a tyke then. Right, well that makes more sense. And all of this caused him to develop in certain ways - ways which he carried off to Hogwarts with him, imo.

Though it's true that he might have known other Wizarding kids, and feasible that he grew up with maybe a few, or met a few, she was likely the first one he met that was Muggle born and she captivated him. Or at least, she was the first one he saw the magic in, that's not to say he didn't know others who were also magical. Though she did only catch his attention when she was seen to have magical ability, as he watched her he started to like her. It does state that he had been planning to talk to her for ages and then it didn't go according to plan, making him awkward and uncomfortable. It does sound quite familiar to me, having been on both his and her end of that particular stick at some stage. What drew him more than her magic was herself. I say that taking your point into consideration, regarding the fact that he likely knew other Wizarding children. What made her so special if he had met others?

I don't think he had close magical friends; I just mean that he'd perhaps met some. Lily was as you say, a muggle with magic. That was something new. She was also in his neighborhood, the only one we know of. So that too was new. So I think it would be natural that he would be interested in her. His development of a crush is something apart with respect to his initially noticing her.

Though I do agree to the owl part, I also concede that frequently was the wrong word. I actually don't recall typing it, or rather, I do, but elsewhere. Confusion, dontcha know. Gets the best of me... quite frequently.. :lol:

:lol:.

All hex wars would get you into trouble, but I imagine more leniency would be applied to someone who tried a bat bogey hex, as opposed to someone who threw the Cruciatus Curse. See what I mean?

But my point here was that because all hex wars get you in trouble, it is unlikely kids started them up in front of professors. For example, if Dumbledore and McGonagall had been walking across the Grass in SWM, that particular hex war would have not likely taken place at all. So anyone starting one would be aware of their environment and it would be out of the sight of authorities. Leniency is less important than "getting in trouble and serving detention" which is what happens to everyone, no matter which spell they choose. Now this is totally different than trying out the toe nail growing hex on someone like Harry did or the 100's of students lifting one another up in the hallways. That too would get you in trouble, but less than a 'hex war' which has so much animus behind it, professors take the matter more seriously and students know it. There is more involved than a simple hour's detention - you get into problems like Harry did when he and Draco fought and he used Sectumsempra. He was purposely made to miss Quidditch games and so his suffering was far greater. Draco tried to pull the 'crucio' there, but they were in private, and he wouldn't have likely done that in the hallway with Dumbledore around - or simply because of the potential of a professor being around. So Snape would be mindful of that if using a dark curse and his opponents would be equally mindful of starting a hex war with animus behind it. But all of them would lift up a school mate in the hallway - the professor might give an hour's detention, but not cause them to miss Quidditch or some other fun function. And again, Snape used at least the one enough to become known as his specialty (and I agree in settings where there were not professors).

I'm with you on all of this, except that last bit in brackets. He didn't misconstrue their good points, he just didn't want to see them, so he didn't, and that's a bad thing. It wasn't incomprehension, it was a prejudice that prevented him seeing past their bad points, much the same as his attitude to Harry later in life. I know it's rare for me to criticise him, but that is one of these times. Lap it up! :D

I agree with you. But that is not exactly what I was referring to. I do believe what you said also occurred. But when Snape saw Harry catch the Snitch and beat out Draco dramatically - then turn and raise his fist in the air and all his housemates cheer wildly, land and be surrounded by people making admirable comments and congratulating him, he misconstrued Harry's point of view, imo.

Snape saw this and saw Harry's fist in the air not as 'accomplishment' but as arrogant boasting, imo. But it isn't of course. If you are an athlete, you practice your pants off and in a game, if you pull off a great move you have practiced, or a feat you have worked toward, you are filled with a sense of accomplishment and you feel like: "YEAH BABY!" and you respond accordingly. You are not boasting in that moment (except with the rare individual who has supreme god-like talent and couldn't care less about the team winning and does't really practice, but only plays as an opportunity to show off their talent - and neither Harry or his father had that god-like talent that had professional teams running to hire them and people saying they were the best in the history of the game e.g., Viktor Krum. They were just normally gifted players who practiced.) But Snape saw boasting and arrogance there, imo. He also saw both surrounded by their housemates afterward, being congratulated and misconstrued their sheer joy at their practice paying off (via their natural talent - which Snape degraded as "a small amount" rather than truly talented as they were, although not god-like) and their happy smiles and hand slapping as "preening or strutting" (POA). Now whether or not Snape knew he was miscontruing their actions or not is up for debate. But he did do it in the reference I gave. So I would agree with your construction (which likely happened at times), but mine as well - which happened on page.

Sorry not to quote the whole thing, but there are only parts I want to talk about. I was talking about different times, primarily because there were different times. I agree with most of what you said, and my view boils down to this. Snape, admittedly very late in life, did make a number of good decisions and promises. He proved himself as a man of his word,

I only named one good decision, so I am not sure what you are referring to. Are you breaking down all of Snape's individual acts at the end that he did for Dumbledore - because I was calling that 'working for Dumbledore' comprehensively.

and even Dumbledore said that he didn't truly belong in Slytherin, "perhaps we sort too soon".

Don't get me started. Slytherin is my favorite house and I fervently disagree with Dumbledore's statement unless he was referring to himself.

I'm willing to accept from canon, Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore, that he was inherently brave,

They actually said that he was brave - Harry used the superlative. But I disagree that they meant 'inherently' because it not being inherent is what make it remarkable for Snape. JKR said he was inherently vulnerable and insecure, so his bravery in spying was something he actually had to put effort into, imo. I think his natural tendency was to be cowardly - and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but rather because of all of the things that we discussed, Snape's character was such that he avoided situations that would entail bravery generally, imo, and made non-brave decisions a lot of the time (which I can enumerate if you like as there are a lot of them). So that is why when he showed bravery it was remarkable, imo. (As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.)

that he gave a lot of his own peace of mind to a flurry of double deals and a half life, and that in the end, the good things he had seen interrupted the bad. He did, finally, finally make a choice that redeemed him, at least to everybody in the book, even, it appears, the Weasleys, who bear to have his name thrust upon a member of their family, even after he blew the ear off of one of them.

I would respectfully disagree. We don't have canon on how anyone felt about Snape except Dumbledore and Harry, imo. Thus, anything else is an assumption and I feel just the opposite. The Weasleys could not control Harry's choices. And he could explain himself to his wife, and we hope she agreed, but we don't even know that - she may have just given in. So I do not think we can support that assumption without further canon. Plus, JKR said that the opinion following the war about Snape would be varied. (Interview with Viera - 2007)

Nonetheless, this has nothing to do with Snape's redemption in my opinion. He rejected evil, and so he is redeemed from being a total black character. He also moved from leaving those to die who he felt he could save, to trying to save them. But even in that statement he retained a choice for himself because it begs the question of "who Snape felt he could save and why". Redemption for me requires admission of all wrongs, remorse and repentence and the text does not have Snape himself doing any of these things on page for many of his past wrongs (while a DE). Also, he behaved in an evil manner in my opinion while on the good side which also required redemption but was not had. So my personal view was that he was not redeemed overall. JKR said she wanted it, and I relate her desire, but unfortunately, she cannot meet the terms required by every reader for redemption. I think she was aware of that as she indicated herself that people would see Snape distinctly following his death (re: good/bad). She even gave a specific example of Rita writing an article giving both viewpoints of Snape - this all in that same interview.

He is the only one to be held accountable for his eventual choices, for his eventual decisions. But he cannot be blamed for what he internalized early on. He can, however, be recognised as extremely stubborn, cruel, difficult to deal with, bitter and somewhat isolated even in later years. He's a thoroughly unpleasant, cynical and sarcastic human being with a penchant for antagonistic behaviour, yes. But none of those are his true issue, or why we talk about him. He was morally ambiguous, and that's where it lies.

This brings up an excellent point: your opinion mitigates, limits and justifies Snape's poor decisions (based on his background, etc.) - some of which I agree with. But your opinion gives Snape full credit and all of the responsibility, culpability and honor for his good decisions. If Snape truly is so profoundly and deeply influenced by his surroundings (like his homelife, Hogwarts life, etc.), then should not we be giving praise and responsibility to McGonagall, Lily, Dumbledore, and all of those good siders Snape was around for Snape's eventual good decisions? He was not entirely responsible for those either under the theory of influence. So Snape should neither suffer full blame nor full honor, but rather just part of the blame for his bad decisions and part of the blame for his good ones.

What does that say about Snape's delve into the Death Eater realm? That it was not purely an autonomous decision, that there were factors that heavily influenced him to fall into that horrible trap. That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. His choice was therefore, not all of his and we cannot say that his soul was truly soiled or behind the decision for the most part. So what does it say about Snape's turn to the good side? That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. So we cannot really say that his soul was really redeemed or behind his decision for the most part. You follow me?

He didn't have a death wish, no. But he was so selfish that all he cared about was himself. He made a tough choice based on everything he had seen and learned, and the only compassionate part of him beat the black bits back, which I think does indicate a sense of light and moral courage. Had he returned to Voldemort, he still would have been a death eater. Dumbledore would have been disappointed, but why hunt just one death eater instead of his master? Dumbledore would have done nothing but cut his losses. He was a strategist, he would have worked beyond it. Sure, he returned when Dumbledore asked. But the hunt can't have bothered him so much- he spent the best part of time since he graduated in a war anyway, why would it start to bother him later on? His choice to join Dumbledore indicates that he wasn't a heartless crook, but that he did have a good streak, which is why it is felt that he redeemed himself. Even Harry thought so.

My point wasn't that Dumbledore would personally hunt him down. I don't think he would have. My point was that he would be 'back in the hunt' like all the other DEs. Any headway he'd made with respect to rejecting evil would be lost. But apparently, that was enough headway for him to not make that decision at that time. I would not call it a 'good streak' because all the while he was on the good side he was not displaying any good streak except for not going back to Voldemort, imo. I would call it "Snape's evolution in rejecting evil". This was a good process, imo.

Nice allegorical moment there at the end :). Aside from not killing and trying not to injure, Snape showed extreme disgust at Dumbledore for putting Snape's own soul at risk just to kill him. We're agreed that he did make the right choices, the only real difference between us is that you don't think he redeemed himself enough.

Actually, I think he made some right choices. However, the choice to adopt Dumbledore's plan regarding Harry was a bad one. His motivation was bad, in part (he loathed Harry) to me, and another part of it showed him to be behaving in as machiavellian a manner as Dumbledore was with respect to that particular issue (the big picture scenario). Yet another part (either some misconstrued version of honoring Lily in this way - that she'd agree with his sending her son to his death (recall Snape believed Harry would die) - or wanting Voldemort dead (for whatever reason) is a part that I cannot make a judgment upon at all since I am not certain what he was thinking in that regard. But overall, it was a wrongful choice, imo. I think he made a couple of others at the end too, that showed aspects of his character that still required reform, imo (like the use of Sectumsempra over a stunner, etc.). And of course, the decision not to attempt character reformation is something that he never even seemed to consider, imo, which was, to me, another bad/wrongful choice. And I explained the other reasons why I don't see him as redeemed.

Hey now, don't make fun of me for not being able to extend the dictionarium. I'm quite happy with English as it is ;). Must you always need more? :lol:

Good job! :tu: It is the most importantuos part! :rockon:

Once again, I've not addressed everything, but sure you know the story by now, we've been doing this long enough! :)

I agree, and I add that all kids were a victim of circumstance in that way. It is just that Snape'scircumstances were bad. But where we seem to differ slightly is that I feel Snape carried this attitude, behavior and character with him to Hogwarts. You appear to suggest that he left it behind and took up a whole new set of influences in some cases. But I don't think that is true, I think he carried it with him at all times he was there. That same desire to hurt Petunia with the tree branch due to her attitude is the same desire he would have when faced with those feelings at Hogwarts, imo.

I don't, actually. I agree with you. I think he carried all the badness right into Hogwarts with him, where he was further corrupted. I don’t think he took up any new influence, but simply took the ones he had been seeing for years to mind at long last. I think we just had crossed wires here. :)

They actually said that he was brave - Harry used the superlative. But I disagree that they meant 'inherently' because it not being inherent is what make it remarkable for Snape. JKR said he was inherently vulnerable and insecure, so his bravery in spying was something he actually had to put effort into, imo. I think his natural tendency was to be cowardly - and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but rather because of all of the things that we discussed, Snape's character was such that he avoided situations that would entail bravery generally, imo, and made non-brave decisions a lot of the time (which I can enumerate if you like as there are a lot of them). So that is why when he showed bravery
it was remarkable, imo.

Fair enough, we’ll leave the inherently part out of it. It’s something I was looking at from a different POV which admittedly did leave out much of that! :lol: It’s half three in the morning, let me be! ;)

Inherently vulnerable and insecure, fair enough, but none of those is a direct opposition to bravery. I see that he also faced his fears entirely without question, and he chose to face Dumbledore entirely by himself, which does show a streak of bravery that was entirely different to anything we had seen in him before. I think there are some things that took a lot of bravery for him to do. Going alone to Dumbledore was one. Agreeing to be a double agent another. Agreeing to attempt to save Harry Potter a third. Each of those things undoubtedly galled him at first. It’s in these things he was brave. It might be a small amount, but it gave up big things and forced him into a self provided torturous existence. I think that’s a brave thing to do.

Redemption for me requires admission of all wrongs, remorse and repentence and the text does not have Snape himself doing any of these things on page for many of his past wrongs (while a DE). Also, he behaved in an evil manner in my opinion while on the good side which also required redemption but was not had.

I’m terribly sorry, but I disagree completely with this point. Snape literally knelt in front of Dumbledore and begged. First, he begged not to be killed. Then, he begged for Lily’s life. Then, he begged for all three of them to survive. He took the brunt of Dumbledore’s fury, and I think this counts as a big redemptive scene. If he hadn’t been looking for atonement, then why bother going to Dumbledore? It was the biggest acknowledgement of his wrongdoings that he could provide. Try to imagine his shame, kneeling before Dumbledore and literally begging for mercy. I always thought that was very hard hitting. It forced Snape to call a spade a spade and to admit, outwardly, openly, that he had made all those wrong choices. He begged Dumbledore not to tell anybody. I reckon he did it out of further shame for why he had first gone back to Dumbledore in the first place.

And I’m sorry for this too, but what evildoings did he do when he was on the good side? If you mean sending Harry to his death, as you referenced above, I will talk about that later, so there’s no need to answer that if I have the right gist.

This brings up an excellent point: your opinion mitigates, limits and justifies Snape's poor decisions (based on his background, etc.) - some of which I agree with. But your opinion gives Snape full credit and all of the responsibility, culpability and honor for his good decisions. If Snape truly is so profoundly and deeply influenced by his surroundings (like his homelife, Hogwarts life, etc.), then should not we be giving praise and responsibility to McGonagall, Lily, Dumbledore, and all of those good siders Snape was around for Snape's eventual good decisions? He was not entirely responsible for those either under the theory of influence. So Snape should neither suffer full blame nor full honor, but rather just part of the blame for his bad decisions and part of the blame for his good ones.

I do agree with you. Quite frankly, I just think that he picked up on the good somewhere along the way, or maybe he just had it in him all along. Not in spades, granted, but everybody has some bad and good in them I suppose. As for McGonagall, Dumbledore, they were his colleagues after he made the decision to join the good side. I have no referencing whatsoever to say that Dumbledore had anything to do with him in an earlier time, so I can’t use that one. Lily was his main source of goodness, and her goodness attracted him without doubt. She was possibly the singular factor in his choice to come back to the good side anyway. So yes, part blame, part honour. I just think there were more bad influences than good in his life, and I’m not talking randomers in Hogwarts, I’m being very direct and specific.

What does that say about Snape's delve into the Death Eater realm? That it was not purely an autonomous decision, that there were factors that heavily influenced him to fall into that horrible trap. That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. His choice was therefore, not all of his and we cannot say that his soul was truly soiled or behind the decision for the most part. So what does it say about Snape's turn to the good side? That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. So we cannot really say that his soul was really redeemed or behind his decision for the most part. You follow me?

Honestly? You will not like this answer. It’s tough to explain, I feel like Socrates, but I’ll give it a go and see what happens.

Yes, there were factors leading to him joining the dark. But a factor isn’t what makes a choice. It might push you in a direction, but you and you alone take the physical step. His soul was truly soiled, by those factors, and this is what pushed him to take that step and make that choice, which he alone made, and for which he alone, ultimately, takes responsibility. You can’t expect another thing or person to make a choice for you when you reach a certain age. In this way, Snape is damned.

Equally, there were factors leading him to join the light. But again, though I know we reference that his love for Lily “made him” make the choice, as such it didn’t. It pushed him closer to it, but he alone took the first step. He showed with adequacy that he was well capable of ignoring good things. He also then showed that he was well capable of ignoring bad things. Which is why I say that though there were factors, a person chooses the path to walk, nothing truly chooses it for them. Snape chose alone to go to Dumbledore, and he alone, ultimately, takes the credit for that. In this way, Snape is redeemed.

I know what you’ll say. That contradicts what I just wrote above!
But it doesn’t, necessarily. You won’t be a fan of this, I can tell, but it goes back to the factors. The reason I discuss them is because they add weight to the thoughts of a person, add influences that can aid in decision making. Snape had more bad factors than good in early life. He took them all into account, but he alone took the step to the dark, thus ruining his own life. But he also had Lily as a good factor, the only good major factor he had in that decision making. Later, on discovering her to be in danger, he reassessed the situation. He chose the other way, and he walked that way, based upon the factors he knew.

This is why I cannot truly give Lily honour or Voldemort added disgust for their roles in it. Because their roles had nothing to do with him personally, they wouldn’t have known about them at all in fact. They were factors, and nothing more.

I even agree that Eileen Prince was just a factor. A person chooses entirely for themselves. I don’t blame my parents for the fact that they dislike the government. Even though they also dislike the government, it’s a choice I made entirely by myself to do the same. I take responsibility for that choice. They were only factors.

But in everything like this, factors do add weight to a person’s thoughts. Snape chose his path based on factors. The factors that he had to work with were unbalanced and so this is why I can justify him slightly, but he did alone make his choices. I just say that they sucked as factors go. They certainly helped him make his choice, but they didn’t force him to.

I hope that all makes follow on sense. And since we’re looking at it in such a deep way, it might appear contradictory to things we’ve written before, such as the use of the words “forced”, “made”, etc. But it’s not.

My point wasn't that Dumbledore would personally hunt him down. I don't think he would have. My point was that he would be 'back in the hunt' like all the other DEs. Any headway he'd made with
respect to rejecting evil would be lost. But apparently, that was enough headway for him to not make that decision at that time. I would not call it a 'good streak' because all the while he was on the good side he was not displaying any good streak except for not going back to Voldemort, imo. I would call it "Snape's evolution in rejecting evil". This was a good process, imo.

Fair enough. I recognise it as such, but to me an evolution in rejecting evil is a good streak. They’re interchangeable in my head. They might not be in yours, but rest assured that I do, indeed, agree with you on what exactly that good streak was.

Actually, I think he made some right choices. However, the choice to adopt Dumbledore's plan regarding Harry was a bad one. His motivation was bad, in part (he loathed Harry) to me, and another part of it showed him to be behaving in as machiavellian a manner as Dumbledore was with respect to that particular issue (the big picture scenario). Yet another part (either some misconstrued version of honoring Lily in this way - that she'd agreewith his sending her son to his death (recall Snape believed Harry would die) - or wanting Voldemort dead (for whatever reason) is a part that I cannot make a judgment upon at all since I am not certain what he was thinking in that regard. But overall, it was a wrongful choice, imo. I think he made a couple of others at the end too, that showed aspects of his character that still required reform, imo (like the use of Sectumsempra over a stunner, etc.). And of course, the decision not to attempt character reformation is something that he never even seemed to consider, imo, which was, to me, another bad/wrongful choice. And I explained the other reasons why I don't see him as redeemed.

All I can say to this is that he made a promise which he fully intended to keep. Yes, he’s a Machiavellian kinda guy and his behaviour was definitely savoury toward Harry, because when he looked at him, all he saw was James. It was a poor judgement call. He was unhappy with the plan to send Harry to his death, and I argue (with the knowledge of what he said when Dumbledore told him it) that this was due to the fact that he had given everything to protect Lily Potter’s son, and now he was being told that the boy had to die. That was a cruel trick of Dumbledore’s, and it shows that Dumbledore did indeed use Snape to that end. Definitely some aspects of him still required reform. I won’t argue that he would have reformed them, because I find that unlikely. That’s what makes him an anti hero and a very controversial one at that. But a promise is a promise. Used though he felt, he knew the importance of that promise. He had originally taken it to ensure that he could redeem himself for his past by watching over Harry. By the time he reached its conclusion, everything about it told him that he would never be redeemed by following it through. But a promise is a promise. Aside from that thought, he had a choice between leaving Dumbledore to die by another DE’s hand, or to fulfil both his promise to Dumbledore and his promise to Narcissa. He had already made his choice in this regard. He knew that he would always have to kill Dumbledore, right from the moment he made that choice.

What I don’t know about that one, is whether he made it after talking to Dumbledore about his death, or before. Either way, he again made his choice and he alone takes responsibility for it. The fact that I see it as fulfilling a promise but being bitter about leaving Lily down again, and that you see it differently, comes down to individual opinion

It’s like, 90% aggreance. Ha! That’s my word for this post! :p The remaining ten lies in personal opinion and little else.

I do hope you enjoy trying to read this. I hope it doesn’t frustrate you too much, but I think we went a bit too deep for a time there. Now you know my entire belief system. Is nothing private with you?! :D

As for the owl, if I haven't heard from you by Friday night, I'll send you one then. I give it till Friday because we're both in campaigns too. A week off will give us plenty of time to talk about the other issues till the cows come home.

Once again, I've not addressed everything, but sure you know the story by now, we've been doing this long enough! :)

Ditto. :tu:

Inherently vulnerable and insecure, fair enough, but none of those is a direct opposition to bravery. I see that he also faced his fears entirely without question, and he chose to face Dumbledore entirely by himself, which does show a streak of bravery that was entirely different to anything we had seen in him before. I think there are some things that took a lot of bravery for him to do. Going alone to Dumbledore was one. Agreeing to be a double agent another. Agreeing to attempt to save Harry Potter a third. Each of those things undoubtedly galled him at first. It’s in these things he was brave. It might be a small amount, but it gave up big things and forced him into a self provided torturous existence. I think that’s a brave thing to do.

I added something long after I wrote the post that you may have not seen. I will add it here too: As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.

So perhaps that helps to clarify and if that is what you mean, then we are in agreement.

I’m terribly sorry, but I disagree completely with this point. Snape literally knelt in front of Dumbledore and begged. First, he begged not to be killed. Then, he begged for Lily’s life.

I agree. But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted.

Then, he begged for all three of them to survive.

"Hide them all, then" he croaked "Keep her - them - safe" (DH TPT)

is not begging for all three of them to survive in my opinion. It was written just like that, with all of the dashes and stumbling over words. JKR put those in purposely, imo, and following Dumbledore expressing his disgust at Snape which I feel Snape would understand meant Dumbledore was not willing to do a single solitary thing for him if he didn't straighten up. This, above all things, expresses my point clearly and solidly in my view. Snape still did not care about the outcome of James and Harry - but he conceded that he had to 'straighten up', at least verbally, if he wanted Dumbledore's help. And realistically, Snape could not change his Death Eater train of thought so quickly; until that point he was banking on Voldemort to spare her. And JKR said he wouldn't have left the DEs at all if it weren't for Lily being targeted. So his change took time, imo, and it was not reached on the moment in this scene which is what I believe JKR was trying to convey.

He took the brunt of Dumbledore’s fury, and I think this counts as a big redemptive scene.

I see it as Snape's first step toward rejecting evil. He had by no means rejected it yet, imo. He simply rejected that it was the machine that would kill Lily and he didn't want that to happen in my judgment. So it was not a redemptive scene to me, but a first step in that direction - but the staircase was long and he had many steps still to take, imo. This was re-emphasized in the next scene. Snape was distraught when he found out Lily died, but when Dumbledore told him Harry survived, Snape did not express joyous relief that some good had come of his going to Dumbledore. His mind stayed on one track: Lily was dead, which he repeated and then declared he wished he were dead because of that.

As an aside, our understanding of Snape's statement wishing he were dead depended on the readers understanding of death to make it meaningful. And JKR banked on that, imo, to indicate how horrible he felt, and how meaningful the moment was to him. As such, it became a statement to be placed with many others in the category of one of the biggest inconsistencies in HP universe. But I let it slide, after all, JKR is not really a wizard and the inconsistency didn't seem to occur to her throughout her 20 year writing of the series. :lol:.

If he hadn’t been looking for atonement, then why bother going to Dumbledore?

To save Lily because he did not trust that Voldemort would spare her, imo. In this way, he got double protection on behalf of Lily. He truly did regret that his action caused Lily to become targeted - but he was not thinking about that, imo, he was thinking about the fact that she was very likely going to die and he wanted to prevent that at all costs.

It was the biggest acknowledgement of his wrongdoings that he could provide. Try to imagine his shame, kneeling before Dumbledore and literally begging for mercy. I always thought that was very hard hitting. It forced Snape to call a spade a spade and to admit, outwardly, openly, that he had made all those wrong choices.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Snape never did any of this based on my interpretation of what I read. He did not kneel and beg for mercy or admit outwardly and openly that he had made all those wrong choices. He admitted that to him, he made one - giving the prophecy - for one reason - Lily was targeted. I am not sure which passage or passages made you feel that Snape was atoning for all of his sins in that moment, perhaps you could highlight them for me?

He begged Dumbledore not to tell anybody. I reckon he did it out of further shame for why he had first gone back to Dumbledore in the first place.

I don't know if shame was his reason or what (although it is a good possibility), but all he asked that Dumbledore not tell was that he had emotions for Lily. Indeed that is all that Dumbledore didn't tell.

And I’m sorry for this too, but what evildoings did he do when he was on the good side? If you mean sending Harry to his death, as you referenced above, I will talk about that later, so there’s no need to answer that if I have the right gist.

That and the fact that imo, he bullied children, abused Harry mentally and physically and mentally tormented others without seeming to have any regret or remorse for those things, imo. This was not just "not nice" to me. I look very seriously on actions taken against kids when one has the power of authority over them and works closely with them. I am appalled that Dumbledore gave him that position, because he should have realized how a person of Snape's character would behave with them, imo, especially Harry in light of the circumstances.

I don't understand the proposition that one can do these types of things and they be brushed aside as if they meant nothing and didn't require regret and remorse. Lucas didn't even try to pull that off with Anakin Skywalker (who you mentioned) - and he was far, far worse - but he admitted in his own words at he end that he had been wrong and that he felt remorse for it. And that despite the fact that Luke told us again and again during the final movie - Lucas realized it had to come from Anakin himself because he'd been Vader and done it all, not Luke. This is what was lacking in Snape's subplot, imo.

Yes, there were factors leading to him joining the dark. But a factor isn’t what makes a choice. It might push you in a direction, but you and you alone take the physical step. His soul was truly soiled, by those factors, and this is what pushed him to take that step and make that choice, which he alone made, and for which he alone, ultimately, takes responsibility. You can’t expect another thing or person to make a choice for you when you reach a certain age. In this way, Snape is damned.

I think that is a fair assessment. However, I feel that JKR was trying to make the idea of "choice" much more autonomous than that in the series. She spoke about "choice" so much in her interviews, it was clear to me how much importance she placed on the idea. The point being, that independent of all of one's influences, when it comes to the point of making a decision, of making that clear choice that will have some impact on your life (big or small), a person truly is on their own. In other words, imo, there is nothing "pushing you in a direction" to the extent that it cannot be easily ignored.

This makes sense to me with Snape because when he was a Death Eater, he had no good influences around him that we know of. Not one. Lily had rejected him completely and to our knowledge based on canon, had not related with him in 5 years. Dumbledore and his other possible good influences, in 3 or thereabouts. But whatever he was feeling inside that made him want to save Lily (even if that feeling was negative in nature) carried the goal of saving her. The goal was contrary to DE policy. :lol:. So in that way, this choice was his own to make and he made it, without any influences toward a good goal. Note that back at Hogwarts, Snape was faced with the exact same choice: losing his friend Lily for all intents and purposes forever or doing "something" to keep that friendship. But he didn't pursue the goal in the same way (saving the friendship). It involved the same person, but she was actually in his life at the time, there was no threat on her life or deadly risk to his, which should under the "influences" theory have made it even easier for him to do, imo.

To me, this serves to show that influences are like guideposts, they can show you various ways to go, but they have no means of "pushing you" in a direction - unless you want to go that way. Then you allow them to lead you. See what I mean?

Equally, there were factors leading him to join the light. But again, though I know we reference that his love for Lily “made him” make the choice, as such it didn’t. It pushed him closer to it, but he alone took the first step. He showed with adequacy that he was well capable of ignoring good things. He also then showed that he was well capable of ignoring bad things. Which is why I say that though there were factors, a person chooses the path to walk, nothing truly chooses it for them. Snape chose alone to go to Dumbledore, and he alone, ultimately, takes the credit for that. In this way, Snape is redeemed.

And when it comes to Snape's good decisions, you seem to agree with me... :lol:.

I know what you’ll say. That contradicts what I just wrote above!
But it doesn’t, necessarily. You won’t be a fan of this, I can tell, but it goes back to the factors. The reason I discuss them is because they add weight to the thoughts of a person, add influences that can aid in decision making. Snape had more bad factors than good in early life. He took them all into account, but he alone took the step to the dark, thus ruining his own life. But he also had Lily as a good factor, the only good major factor he had in that decision making. Later, on discovering her to be in danger, he reassessed the situation. He chose the other way, and he walked that way, based upon the factors he knew.

This is why I cannot truly give Lily honour or Voldemort added disgust for their roles in it. Because their roles had nothing to do with him personally, they wouldn’t have known about them at all in fact. They were factors, and nothing more.

So maybe you agree with me?

I even agree that Eileen Prince was just a factor. A person chooses entirely for themselves. I don’t blame my parents for the fact that they dislike the government. Even though they also dislike the government, it’s a choice I made entirely by myself to do the same. I take responsibility for that choice. They were only factors.

But in everything like this, factors do add weight to a person’s thoughts. Snape chose his path based on factors. The factors that he had to work with were unbalanced and so this is why I can justify him slightly, but he did alone make his choices. I just say that they sucked as factors go. They certainly helped him make his choice, but they didn’t force him to.

Well there are two points I feel are raised here. First, I don't think the factors add weight, I consider them "guideposts" as I explained above. This leaves Snape to regard them, then decide whether he wants to head in that direction or not. Every influence may point one way or the other, but in the end, the person decides.

This brings us to the second part of this. A person does have some of the decision making into which way the guide posts will turn. Thus, how many are pointing in one direction or the other. Here are a couple of examples: Direct Influence: Lily tells Snape that she detests Mulciber and the dark magic he practiced on her friend Mary. That is an influence, a guidepost as if to say what Mulciber did was bad, wrong, not the way to go or the road to follow - and it points toward the good road. But Snape retorts that "it was just a laugh". So that guidepost remains set in the direction of the dark path, a small decision Snape made with respect to one of his influences. Indirect Influence: James saves Snape from the tunnel. Snape could interpret that as his enemy saving him from the tunnel, despite disliking him and the influence of James act, would point the guidepost to the good side (in terms of not letting anyone die, no matter what you think about them). But Snape chooses to interpret it as James decided to try and murder him and then got cold feet for purely self-serving reasons. Thus the influence, which could have pointed the guidepost to the good side, is pointed at the bad side instead (as Snape's interpretation removes any good influence from the act and influences the notion that one can get away with bad behavior.)

So I have taken a deep dive into this, but with the end of showing that not only are influences guideposts, imo, but those guideposts are shifted in some cases by the person following them. I feel some are more or less set, like the influence of Snape's father and the like, but others are not, imo.

I hope that all makes follow on sense. And since we’re looking at it in such a deep way, it might appear contradictory to things we’ve written before, such as the use of the words “forced”, “made”, etc. But it’s not.

No, I am following you. And the deeper you look at it the more factors come into play. But I don't see it as contradictory, rather as further explanation.

All I can say to this is that he made a promise which he fully intended to keep. Yes, he’s a Machiavellian kinda guy and his behaviour was definitely savoury toward Harry, because when he looked at him, all he saw was James. It was a poor judgement call. He was unhappy with the plan to send Harry to his death, and I argue (with the knowledge of what he said when Dumbledore told him it) that this was due to the fact that he had given everything to protect Lily Potter’s son, and now he was being told that the boy had to die. That was a cruel trick of Dumbledore’s, and it shows that Dumbledore did indeed use Snape to that end.

I disagree to some extent. I don't think Snape was unhappy with the plan in that he couldn't care less that Harry was being sent to his death, imo. (My interpretation of his response: "so the boy must die" - stated calmly). And he never argued that point at all. His entire argument was about his feeling used by this "suprising" person before him: Dumbledore. For me, this was the major revelation of DH and I was as shocked as JKR made Snape act upon hearing Dumbledore's admission. I couldn't believe it of him and I think Snape felt the same way. Not because it was "Harry" - but because it was "Anybody at all" - and Dumbledore's plan was as machiavellian as they come, imo. (Recall one of his ideologies was that people simply have to be sacrificed on occassion - and quite nonchalant about it.) Snape declared he felt used and he should have, imo, because in the end, he was not working toward honoring Lily's sacrifice (the entire point being to save her son), but rather dishonoring it by helping to protect him for Dumbledore's plan to have him slaughtered.

Dumbledore, also the master of manipulation, totally took Snape's mind off of his charges against Dumbledore (which you will note Dumbledore never answered to or even addressed) and asked, 'does this mean you care for the boy' (paraphrase) and Snape comes back with amazement, 'him'? Having believed inside that Dumbledore knew full well the answer to that (and Dumbledore did of course, but it got him out of answering any questions about his behavior :lol:). Then Snape goes on to indicate why he was doing it - for Lily - to honor her sacrifice as he had promised to do. Which of course was what Dumbledore expected to hear, imo. After all he had to that point trusted Snape completely because all along he continued to trust that Snape had emotions for Lily and wished to honor her sacrifice, right? He had no other basis for his firm trust in Snape based on canon, imo. I think if Snape's response had been distinct, Dumbledore would have had to change his plan because if Snape had grown to care for Harry, there was a chance that he would not pass on Dumbledore's message. But as it turned out, Snape confirmed what Dumbledore believed and that meant his plan - all of it including the possible negative end for Snape - was still a 'go'. I think what was likely to befall Snape was what moved him to tear up at that point.

As for the owl, if I haven't heard from you by Friday night, I'll send you one then. I give it till Friday because we're both in campaigns too. A week off will give us plenty of time to talk about the other issues till the cows come home.

That's fine, I have work to do on top of it for school too, and I am sure your real life takes precedence as well, :lol:. But luckily, the book isn't going anywhere, so whenever we get to it is fine. :tu:

I added something long after I wrote the post that you may have not seen. I will add it here too: As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.

Will answer in the Neville thread. :)

But then how do I justify Sirius? Like Zara (whose quote is also there), I figured he had good influences of his aunt and uncle. But the thing is, if Andromeda was prattling off a bunch of anti-Black beliefs, they would not have her over much, nor would they approve of either of their children going to her home. So she couldn't have been around all that much. And as for his uncle; Sirius was surprised that his uncle had left him money. So he couldn't have had a great relationship with him or the legacy would have been understandable to him. In any case, he certainly was inculcated with more negative beliefs (defined Slytherin/Voldemort/pureblood ideologies) than anything else. So environment is not entirely relevant - although it is to some degree as we see Sirius had a recklesness and a dangerous attitude at times. But he was also a rebel and that may have played into it also.

I think that this analysis assumes that Sirius Black was fighting the Pureblood supremecy beliefs even before he goes off to Hogwarts. Personally, I think it would be much more logical to assume that, until he got to Hogwarts, he-- more or less-- agreed with his parents.

I think he was railing against his family, but not because of their beliefs, but for more traditional teenaged reasons. They were putting pressure on him, as the Heir to the Black family, to succeed and basically be this ideal version of what a Pureblood wizard should be. Any child would try to back away from this, and rebel against this strict ruling.

I don't have the books with me, but in DH I seem to recall Sirius was basically resigned to the fact that he would be in Slytherin. He wasn't loudly declaring his contempt for it, but just sort of shrugging and going along. As if, he didn't really want to be in it, but saw no other real alternative.

But being with James Potter changed him. I would think it logical that Sirius Black slowly turned against his parents beliefs because of his contact with James Potter, and the beliefs that James brought with him to Hogwarts.

Although, granted, this is just speculation. We don't have much from JKR to go by, really. But, this seems as logical (if not moreso) a reason for Sirius' rebellion than any other. I just can't see him having any outside contact with Andromedia, or any other non-Pureblood Wizards. At least, not enough contact for him to start questioning his families beliefs.

I added something long after I wrote the post that you may have not seen. I will add it here too: As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.

Yup, that's all good. But you're right, I hadn't sen it after you edited it. Sorry about that! :)

I agree. But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted

"I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. It does show a huge emotional response to the entire bomb blast, and outside of that, it also shows that he is sorry. Only a person very sorry for themselves says such a thing. Especially when he wasn't exactly known for humbling experiences. I realise that it likely won't qualify for you, our thoughts on redemption are too different, but that's what I analyze as being sorry for something. :)

"Hide them all, then" he croaked "Keep her - them - safe" (DH TPT)
is not begging for all three of them to survive in my opinion. It was written just like that, with all of the dashes and stumbling over words. JKR put those in purposely, imo, and following Dumbledore expressing his disgust at Snape which I feel Snape would understand meant Dumbledore was not willing to do a single solitary thing for him if he didn't straighten up. This, above all things, expresses my point clearly and solidly in my view. Snape still did not care about the outcome of James and Harry - but he conceded that he had to 'straighten up', at least verbally, if he wanted Dumbledore's help. And realistically, Snape could not change his Death Eater train of thought so quickly; until that point he was banking on Voldemort to spare her. And JKR said he wouldn't have left the DEs at all if it weren't for Lily being targeted. So his change took time, imo, and it was not reached on the moment in this scene which is what I believe JKR was trying to convey.

I do take this on board as a point that supports your view, and I can't argue much with it other than to say that no, he didn't reach the epitome of his remorse at that point. I think that happened as time went on. He showed the beginnings of sorrow here, definitely. And as he realised that Dumbledore had nothing but contempt for him, I think (and this is only a thought, based on nothing but my own interpretation of "The Prince's Tale"), that he saw a harsh truth. Dumbledore wasn't exactly known for hating people, and he really seemed to detest Snape at that time.

Adding to that, I think the fact that later, Snape felt he had proved himself adequately enough to Dumbledore that he resented not being trusted further proves the point- my point, that is. Snape was definitely sorry for what he had done. Otherwise, he would not have wished to impress Dumbledore so much. He wouldn't have tried too hard, but merely done his job, whereas instead it comes across that he really wanted to be trusted by Dumbledore. He was willing to do anything to atone for what he had previously been a part of. Admittedly the fact that it all began with Lily makes great sense. When she died, I think Snape had a difficult choice to make. He could easily have let the old anger take over him, but he must have been truly sorry to say that what occurred was different.

I see it as Snape's first step toward rejecting evil. He had by no means rejected it yet, imo. He simply rejected that it was the machine that would kill Lily and he didn't want that to happen in my judgment. So it was not a redemptive scene to me, but a first step in that direction - but the staircase was long and he had many steps still to take, imo. This was re-emphasized in the next scene. Snape was distraught when he found out Lily died, but when Dumbledore told him Harry survived, Snape did not express joyous relief that some good had come of his going to Dumbledore. His mind stayed on one track: Lily was dead, which he repeated and then declared he wished he were dead because of that.

All this is true. But be honest about it. Who thinks logically in a time like that? He later came to realise that doing whatever he could might help him to make things right. I don't see any other reason for it that makes sense, I don't see any other more powerful reason other than that he was intensely sorry. In the same way, I think this is why he still watched out for Harry, even when called a coward, even when insulted, even being a suspect at all times. He brought that on himself. He could have made it better. He could have allowed Dumbledore to tell the world about "The best" of him. So why didn't he? I think that, since Dumbledore said this, Dumbledore and I agree.
Similarly, I don't see why one would say they want to die unless they were seriously regretting their life.

As an aside, our understanding of Snape's statement wishing he were dead depended on the readers understanding of death to make it meaningful. And JKR banked on that, imo, to indicate how horrible he felt, and how meaningful the moment was to him.

I know this might deviate a bit from course, but what's the inconsistency here? :( I've not seen it! Enlighten me! :D

To save Lily because he did not trust that Voldemort would spare her, imo. In this way, he got double protection on behalf of Lily. He truly did regret that his action caused Lily to become targeted - but he was not thinking about that, imo, he was thinking about the fact that she was very likely going to die and he wanted to prevent that at all costs.

Well, the first part of this is canon and is true. He did indeed also regret his part of an action that would put her in danger. I just don't think he had the ulterior motive of seeking to save his own skin. I think he was too traumatised to think that through. Quite frankly, he seemed to not care about himself any longer, and he seemed to truly hate himself, again shown by him saying he wished he were dead.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Snape never did any of this based on my interpretation of what I read. He did not kneel and beg for mercy or admit outwardly and openly that he had made all those wrong choices. He admitted that to him, he made one - giving the prophecy - for one reason - Lily was targeted. I am not sure which passage or passages made you feel that Snape was atoning for all of his sins in that moment, perhaps you could highlight them for me?

Not all in that moment, no. I think it was the beginning of a long stretch for him, though admittedly I did write otherwise. I should have included the words "begin to" before admit. I thought I had actually, but nevertheless. We do agree on this, I just messed up my typing! ;)

But he did beg for mercy. On his knees he said "Don't kill me!" When Dumbledore claimed that this would not happen, he then said "I-I come with a warning-no, a request-please...". If we're going to discuss JK Rowling's care in writing her dialogue, then this is one of the moments where Snape shows a spark of sorrow. First, he changed his mind. It wasn't a warning, he came to beg and he knew it. So he begged. He even said "please".

To add to that, when he knew that this wasn't something he would get for nothing, and when asked what he would give in return, he thought about leaving it go, letting her die. But instead, the horror of it got to whatever conscience he had. When asked, he said "Anything".

It brings up an interesting point. Later, when Lily was dead, though he had not yet given "Anything", Dumbledore had not seen his side of the bargain fulfilled either. Not his fault, but nonetheless. Her death was not truly Snape's fault in this way. It was Pettigrew's fault. The Potters were already members of the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort would already have wanted them dead surely? It makes sense then, that Snape cannot take full responsibility for this. Sure, he told Voldemort the prophecy. Had he thought it referred to Lily, he never would have uttered a word, to be sure.

I don't know if shame was his reason or what (although it is a good possibility), but all he asked that Dumbledore not tell was that he had emotions for Lily. Indeed that is all that Dumbledore didn't tell.

But is that all Dumbledore didn't tell? He also never told that Snape had sworn to protect Harry, sworn that no matter what happened, he would protect Harry. Snape didn't want anybody to know this either. Why would Snape stop him from saying that? I think he was ashamed of what he had done, of his part in spying that was a factor in Lily's death. But I don't see why he would want the truth about his guardian status not told. It would be an honorable thing to have been entrusted, surely?

That and the fact that imo, he bullied children, abused Harry mentally and physically and mentally tormented others without seeming to have any regret or remorse for those things, imo. This was not just "not nice" to me. I look very seriously on actions taken against kids when one has the power of authority over them and works closely with them. I am appalled that Dumbledore gave him that position, because he should have realized how a person of Snape's character would behave with them, imo, especially Harry in light of the circumstances.

But again, no parent that we know of ever complained. Snape made everybody work really hard, he accepted nothing less than the best. Admittedly he was cruel, dislikable (new word! Wuhoo!), and downright mean. So he wasn't the nicest person. But he was never, that we know of, complained about. It was just agreed that he was rather cruel. Which I agree with.

I think that is a fair assessment. However, I feel that JKR was trying to make the idea of "choice" much more autonomous than that in the series. She spoke about "choice" so much in her interviews, it was clear to me how much importance she placed on the idea. The point being, that independent of all of one's influences, when it comes to the point of making a decision, of making that clear choice that will have some impact on your life (big or small), a person truly is on their own. In other words, imo, there is nothing "pushing you in a direction" to the extent that it cannot be easily ignored.

I agree with all of this except "easily". Some factors are easier to ignore than others. But nonetheless, yes, a person makes their choice entirely by their onesies, no doubt about it. They alone take responsibility for that.

This makes sense to me with Snape because when he was a Death Eater, he had no good influences around him that we know of. Not one. Lily had rejected him completely and to our knowledge based on canon, had not related with him in 5 years. Dumbledore and his other possible good influences, in 3 or thereabouts. But whatever he was feeling inside that made him want to save Lily (even if that feeling was negative in nature) carried the goal of saving her. The goal was contrary to DE policy. :lol:. So in that way, this choice was his own to make and he made it, without any influences toward a good goal. Note that back at Hogwarts, Snape was faced with the exact same choice: losing his friend Lily for all intents and purposes forever or doing "something" to keep that friendship. But he didn't pursue the goal in the same way (saving the friendship). It involved the same person, but she was actually in his life at the time, there was no threat on her life or deadly risk to his, which should under the "influences" theory have made it even easier for him to do, imo.


Yes, we;re agreeing so far at least. I think this adds honour to his character, personally.

To me, this serves to show that influences are like guideposts, they can show you various ways to go, but they have no means of "pushing you" in a direction - unless you want to go that way. Then you allow them to lead you. See what I mean?

Yes, that's also true.

And when it comes to Snape's good decisions, you seem to agree with me... :lol:.

I agree with you for the most part on these, yes.

So maybe you agree with me?

For all intents and purposes, yes. We are probably 98% in agreement regarding Severus Snape, where his character comes from, how it was built, when and how. :tu: But there are still limits!!:lol:

So I have taken a deep dive into this, but with the end of showing that not only are influences guideposts, imo, but those guideposts are shifted in some cases by the person following them. I feel some are more or less set, like the influence of Snape's father and the like, but others are not, imo.

No, I am following you. And the deeper you look at it the more factors come into play. But I don't see it as contradictory, rather as further explanation.

I do agree with you here. A person chooses which ones to follow also. That is essentially what aids them in taking that infamous step. Yes. And I'm only delighted that it makes sense. It's just that those things have taught mt about Snape, everything about him that I can possibly know, and in my head I think he redeemed himself quite enough for me to like him in the most general sense there is.


I disagree to some extent. I don't think Snape was unhappy with the plan in that he couldn't care less that Harry was being sent to his death, imo. (My interpretation of his response: "so the boy must die" - stated calmly). And he never argued that point at all. His entire argument was about his feeling used by this "suprising" person before him: Dumbledore. For me, this was the major revelation of DH and I was as shocked as JKR made Snape act upon hearing Dumbledore's admission. I couldn't believe it of him and I think Snape felt the same way. Not because it was "Harry" - but because it was "Anybody at all" - and Dumbledore's plan was as machiavellian as they come, imo. (Recall one of his ideologies was that people simply have to be sacrificed on occassion - and quite nonchalant about it.) Snape declared he felt used and he should have, imo, because in the end, he was not working toward honoring Lily's sacrifice (the entire point being to save her son), but rather dishonoring it by helping to protect him for Dumbledore's plan to have him slaughtered.

Yes, Snape did say "So the boy must die" quite calmly. But a few seconds later,

Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.
"You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?"

I think he was unhappy about sending Harry to his death, and I do maintain this. Not so much, as you say, because he liked Harry, since he clearly did not, but because it forced his entire purpose for the last 17 years into redundancy. I'd be pretty annoyed too. Otherwise, I agree with everything you've said, but to add to my own reasoning, I used this:

"But this is touching Severus", said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy after all?"

"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!" From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: she landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.

"After all this time?"

"Always." said Snape.

He didn't want to send Harry to his death, because it made him believe that he would be dishonouring the one thing he had tried to make up to her.

Dumbledore, also the master of manipulation, totally took Snape's mind off of his charges against Dumbledore (which you will note Dumbledore never answered to or even addressed) and asked, 'does this mean you care for the boy' (paraphrase) and Snape comes back with amazement, 'him'? Having believed inside that Dumbledore knew full well the answer to that (and Dumbledore did of course, but it got him out of answering any questions about his behavior :lol:). Then Snape goes on to indicate why he was doing it - for Lily - to honor her sacrifice as he had promised to do. Which of course was what Dumbledore expected to hear, imo. After all he had to that point trusted Snape completely because all along he continued to trust that Snape had emotions for Lily and wished to honor her sacrifice, right? He had no other basis for his firm trust in Snape based on canon, imo. I think if Snape's response had been distinct, Dumbledore would have had to change his plan because if Snape had grown to care for Harry, there was a chance that he would not pass on Dumbledore's message. But as it turned out, Snape confirmed what Dumbledore believed and that meant his plan - all of it including the possible negative end for Snape - was still a 'go'. I think what was likely to befall Snape was what moved him to tear up at that point.


I humbly disagree with you, based simply on what we have read, which I provided above. I disagree, first and foremost, that Dumbledore asked simply to get out of answering questions. He knew he was manipulative and just as cruel as other people. He didn't have to justify that, he knew he never could. I genuinely believe that he asked simply because he didn't believe, after 17 years, that Snape would still love Lily. I also believe that he trusted Snape for a number of further reasons, the most prominent of these being that he had proved he could keep that promise. It was the proof, time and again, that cemented Dumbledore's faith, in my opinion.

Snape would still have followed through with the plan, he had shown that he was not going to waver thus far. I think what upset Dumbledore (not that it has much to do with this, generally :lol:) is that he simply never thought it possible that Snape would still care so much. It was, after all, so very out of character for the Snape we knew so well.

(As an aside, there is one other part which relates to this. My question about it is as follows. Remember when we saw the flashback that had Snape healing Dumbledore? Did that happen before or after he had made that binding promise with Narcissa? I'm not sure that we know, and I think it would make quite a difference, but I'd like to find out first.)

EDIT: zgirnius was just kind enough to tell me that this is true, that Snape did make the Unbreakable Vow after talking to Dumbledore. This means that he accepted fully his responsibility and had no doubts about carrying it through. He was determined from the off, despite not being too pleased with it, that he would fulfill his promise to Dumbledore. Which, to me, shows that he was always going to follow through on this promise. Snape had shown his worth more than once, which is my reading of this. Just a side note that adds to above.. Further explanation, if you will!

That's fine, I have work to do on top of it for school too, and I am sure your real life takes precedence as well, :lol:. But luckily, the book isn't going anywhere, so whenever we get to it is fine. :tu:

Well, we'd like to think my real life takes precedence, wouldn't we? ;)
This took the best part of seven hours, so apologies if it's stilted in any way. Things got a bit hectic at about four different points during it! :D

I think that this analysis assumes that Sirius Black was fighting the Pureblood supremecy beliefs even before he goes off to Hogwarts. Personally, I think it would be much more logical to assume that, until he got to Hogwarts, he-- more or less-- agreed with his parents.

Actually we were not speaking about that issue, so I wasn't attempting to assert that particular fact as true. I was speaking solely of the influences Sirius had in his home at #12 G prior to coming to Hogwarts. The fact is, he did not end up in Slytherin, whereas everyone else in the series inculcated with those types of beliefs when young did (that we were shown and know about for certain.)

I think he was railing against his family, but not because of their beliefs, but for more traditional teenaged reasons. They were putting pressure on him, as the Heir to the Black family, to succeed and basically be this ideal version of what a Pureblood wizard should be. Any child would try to back away from this, and rebel against this strict ruling.

Well Draco, in the exact same situation didn't back away from it. He embraced it, so I don't feel we can conclude that 'any child' would try to back away from this at 11 prior to attendence.

I don't have the books with me, but in DH I seem to recall Sirius was basically resigned to the fact that he would be in Slytherin. He wasn't loudly declaring his contempt for it, but just sort of shrugging and going along. As if, he didn't really want to be in it, but saw no other real alternative.

Actually that is not true, imo. Sirius bemoaned the fact that all of his family had been in Slytherin (unsmiling) and after James joked him back into a better humor, he grinned and said, "maybe I'll break the tradition..."

So I feel that Sirius was already hoping to end up somewhere else. We don't know why.

But being with James Potter changed him. I would think it logical that Sirius Black slowly turned against his parents beliefs because of his contact with James Potter, and the beliefs that James brought with him to Hogwarts.

Well you can't have Sirius both being a serious rebel and an easily influenced follower all at once, imo. He proved throughout his time in the series that he was a rebel and I feel that while the opinion of James (his new friend) might have caused him to think in terms of Gryffindor, I think he would have been satisfied being placed anywhere except Slytherin. That was like Harry, who after speaking to Ron was dead set against Slytherin, but he didn't care where he went - altough he was happy enough to be placed in Gryffindor with his new friend. :lol:.

In contrast, Snape was decided on Slytherin before stepping on the train. It is highly possible that his mother influenced him in that direction (although he may have been motivated by some other source.) But the previous influences are shown here to have had an impact on Snape, whereas, they did not have a similarly strong impact on Sirius. (And this is true for Draco, Ron, James, the Twins and others - their influences were also strong found them desiring specific houses.)

Although, granted, this is just speculation. We don't have much from JKR to go by, really. But, this seems as logical (if not moreso) a reason for Sirius' rebellion than any other. I just can't see him having any outside contact with Andromedia, or any other non-Pureblood Wizards. At least, not enough contact for him to start questioning his families beliefs.

I would respectfully disagree that it would be logical for a person of Sirius' character to follow along after a person he'd just met. (Note they had not been on the train very long when we came upon them). Sirius displayed aggressive behavior when challenged and didn't seem at all inhibited when it came to spelling things out, even for his new friend. I think it more reasonable that he would have made the determination to break the mold prior to arriving on the train. But I don't think he had a decided predilection for another house or he would have said so, imo.

Snape was in a different mindset however; he appeared to know where he wanted to go and seemed certain he would be placed in Slytherin. Otherwise I doubt he'd tell Lily she'd better be in that house because what good would that do if he was placed elsewhere? :lol:. So Snape responded in a stronger fashion to any influences he had in that regard, imo, like many others. Sirius, was the anomoly in the story in that regard. But I think it was important to show Sirius as an exception because JKR wished to account for varied circumstances. Not every child who grew up with staunch Slytherin parents was going to fold under their desires nor acceed to them. Some kids with minds of their own and perhaps a rebel spirit, would not do so.

But another important idea is that the hat can read the soul/heart/mind of the students and places them where they will best be sorted. So even if Sirius hadn't wanted Slytherin with all of his heart, but he best pertained to that house, he would have likely been sorted there anyway. I say this because I would imagine that Lily, knowing nothing about the house system, likely sat there wishing to be placed in Slytherin so she could be with her friend. However, the hat was like 'no go' :lol:. Although, Lily couldn't have really 'meant' it very much as she would have no idea what she was talking about and the hat would see that in her soul also. Harry was an anomoly because he actually had the soul piece inside of him and could go either way (that of his parents or Voldemort). So Sirius I don't think could have sat there saying "NOT SLYTHERIN!" and had much hope for success, unless he really meant it - because then it would be in his soul/heart as well, imv. Snape would have meant it if he was wishing for Slytherin though, and so the hat would see that and sort him accordingly, imo.

(As an aside, there is one other part which relates to this. My question about it is as follows. Remember when we saw the flashback that had Snape healing Dumbledore? Did that happen before or after he had made that binding promise with Narcissa? I'm not sure that we know, and I think it would make quite a difference, but I'd like to find out first.)

We know for a fact. He made the Unbreakable Vow, only after he agreed to kill Albus. In "Spinner's End", HBP, he refers to an injury Albus has recently sustained - the very one he had tried to heal, though of course he would not tell Bella THAT. :D

Well Draco, in the exact same situation didn't back away from it. He embraced it, so I don't feel we can conclude that 'any child' would try to back away from this at 11 prior to attendence.

True, to say 'any child' is being overly vague. But knowing Sirius' character, it wouldn't be hard to assume this sort of a reaction from him.

Actually that is not true, imo. Sirius bemoaned the fact that all of his family had been in Slytherin (unsmiling) and after James joked him back into a better humor, he grinned and said, "maybe I'll break the tradition..."

So I feel that Sirius was already hoping to end up somewhere else. We don't know why.


But, the difference is that Sirius isn't activly seeking a different House. He is just hoping for it.

Well you can't have Sirius both being a serious rebel and an easily influenced follower all at once, imo. He proved throughout his time in the series that he was a rebel and I feel that while the opinion of James (his new friend) might have caused him to think in terms of Gryffindor,

I don't think he was easily influenced or a follower. Rather, I think he was already forming a rather dismal view of his family, and any reason to perputate that belief was grasped willingly.

But another important idea is that the hat can read the soul/heart/mind of the students and places them where they will best be sorted. So even if Sirius hadn't wanted Slytherin with all of his heart, but he best pertained to that house, he would have likely been sorted there anyway. I say this because I would imagine that Lily, knowing nothing about the house system, likely sat there wishing to be placed in Slytherin so she could be with her friend. However, the hat was like 'no go'

I think Canon refutes this point many times, and shows Harry to not be the anomoly, but the general rule. At the end of DH Harry tells his son that the Hat is likely to take your opinions into consideration, and Hermione says that the Hat considered placing her in Ravenclaw and implies (I believe) that she asked otherwise. There is Albus' comment of 'sometimes we sort too soon' as well. Overall, I don't think the Hat focuses only on your actual character, but on the character you strive for.

Overall, I don't think the Hat focuses only on your actual character, but on the character you strive for.

Agreed. The hat definitely seems to think the qualities you value are a big factor in where it will put you.

It also explains how one of the most cowardly characters in HP, Peter Pettigrew, wound up in Gryffindor. By saying that he was never big and strong like Sirius and James in PoA, he is implying that he, in fact, wanted to be strong at one point. He may have thought hiding behind strong people gave him some strength as well.

To bring this back to Snape, the idea also applies to him. Severus could have been sorted anywhere. He was brilliant, cunning enough to outwit Voldemort, incredibly loyal to Dumbledore and the memory of Lily, and was "the bravest man [Harry] ever knew". But as a child, he was raised in neglect and poverty and it is suggested that as a boy, he spent a lot of time looking toward his future prospects. He wanted to become someone powerful. Slytherin, then, had the qualities he aspired to, and that's where he was sorted.

True, to say 'any child' is being overly vague. But knowing Sirius' character, it wouldn't be hard to assume this sort of a reaction from him.

In your opinion, but I feel that Sirius was stridently against being placed in Slytherin in defiance of his parents and what they stood for. As you mention below, it takes your choice and the character you strive for into consideration. That would include something you really want but won't admit, imo.

I think Canon refutes this point many times, and shows Harry to not be the anomoly, but the general rule. At the end of DH Harry tells his son that the Hat is likely to take your opinions into consideration, and Hermione says that the Hat considered placing her in Ravenclaw and implies (I believe) that she asked otherwise. There is Albus' comment of 'sometimes we sort too soon' as well. Overall, I don't think the Hat focuses only on your actual character, but on the character you strive for.

I don't know which of my points you are refuting because I agree with this. :lol:. My only additional point was that if someone like Lily is sitting there wanting to be in Slytherin just because her friend has gone there, it isn't going to take that into consideration because it has nothing to do with the person themselves, imo.

I don't know which of my points you are refuting because I agree with this. :lol:. My only additional point was that if someone like Lily is sitting there wanting to be in Slytherin just because her friend has gone there, it isn't going to take that into consideration because it has nothing to do with the person themselves, imo.

After re-reading your original post, I think I just misinterpreted what you meant the first time. :P Sorry about that.

However, the only flaw I can see is that Lily was sorted long before Severus was. The sad look she gave him was most likely because she realized she had been sorted into the House with Sirius (he would have gone before her) and the one Potter wanted. :/ As for whether it would take your opinions based on a friendship, I'm not entirly sure. Frankly, the whole sorting system seems to be rather contrived and random. Does it matter more your potential or your past? Does your ideal person matter more than the one you are likely to become? Just how much about you does the Hat learn? Does it find information that even you don't quite know?

And of course, this is entirly off-topic. I'm afraid I've been driving the whole thread off-topic this whole time, as I tend to forget what thread I'm in. /lame :rolleyes:

My only additional point was that if someone like Lily is sitting there wanting to be in Slytherin just because her friend has gone there, it isn't going to take that into consideration because it has nothing to do with the person themselves, imo.

Lily was sorted before Snape (they do it in alphabetical order of last name. Evans before Snape).

Why wouldn't Snape be like Lily, though? If Lily wanting to be in Slytherian because her friend wants to be there won't count to the Hat, then why should Snape's desire to go in Slytherin count to the Hat? If he wants to be in there because his mother was, that is no better than wanting to be in the same house as your friend. If it is because he knows what Slytherin is all about and that's what he wants to be, it would appear that he is wrong about Slytherin. He seems to imply on the train that Slytherins are brainy, so if that's the attraction, the Hat should have stuffed him in Ravenclaw.

So, what exactly went on during that Sorting? Did Snape really know about the characteristics of Slytherin (and lie to Lily) or was he honestly mistaken? Would the sorting Hat take in consideration your preferences if you had a mistaken opinion of the house? Or did his comments on "brawny vs. brainy" not really apply to "Gryffindor vs. Slytherin" in his mind?

When Lily was sorted into Gryffindor (long before Snape was sorted into Slytherin so he had time to think about it), why did Snape not decide to go into Gryffindor? Is this the first indication that we get that Snape will chose Slytherin/Ambition over Lily? Or did he consider going into Gryffindor and we are just not told about it and was he was over-ruled by the hat?

I wonder what the Hat sang that year and if that changed anybody's (e.g. Lily's) mind about which house to be sorted in.

I'm honestly a bit confused about what went on there and I'm not sure if we could ever have a definitive answer.

"I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. It does show a huge emotional response to the entire bomb blast, and outside of that, it also shows that he is sorry. Only a person very sorry for themselves says such a thing. Especially when he wasn't exactly known for humbling experiences. I realise that it likely won't qualify for you, our thoughts on redemption are too different, but that's what I analyze as being sorry for something. :)

I know this might deviate a bit from course, but what's the inconsistency here? :( I've not seen it! Enlighten me! :D

"I wish I were dead" - and indeed many statements made in canon often turn on a fallacy when stated by a member of the wizard world. Here, for example, Snape wishing he was dead was tantamount to wishing he was where Lily was in the afterworld which would be awful (James is there too) so a wizard would not make such a statement. This is an old flaw brought out by readers ages ago when JKR first had a ghost reveal knowledge of the afterworld. The question then of course was: why doesn't Harry just let himself be killed and he can be with his parents? Let the wizards worry about their own earthly wizard world problems!! :lol:.

But before you argue any points in the above paragraph, note I am tongue in cheek there because that is the flaw in JKR's plan that I figure she did not take into consideration. So I agree with you that she meant us to see it as an emotional outcry that symbolizes all we as earthly humans would normally understand it to mean. In that light, I see it as Snape being sorry also. But I do not know what in that scene makes you think he is sorry for "everything". He only appeared to be sorry for his act which lead to Lily's death. He didn't care that Harry survived, he didn't care that James died and he mentioned nothing about all of the others that had died when he was a DE. Further, when Dumbledore asked for his promise to help, Snape declared he would, but not to tell anyone the reason why he was helping "especially not Potter's son". To me that flat out says that Snape's promise to help is specifically not done for either James or Harry - only for Lily. As if that is all he has to worry about making up for. So maybe if you explain more I can understand how you see this more comprehensively as that was my impression from the reading.

Adding to that, I think the fact that later, Snape felt he had proved himself adequately enough to Dumbledore that he resented not being trusted further proves the point- my point, that is. Snape was definitely sorry for what he had done. Otherwise, he would not have wished to impress Dumbledore so much. He wouldn't have tried too hard, but merely done his job, whereas instead it comes across that he really wanted to be trusted by Dumbledore. He was willing to do anything to atone for what he had previously been a part of. Admittedly the fact that it all began with Lily makes great sense. When she died, I think Snape had a difficult choice to make. He could easily have let the old anger take over him, but he must have been truly sorry to say that what occurred was different.

I respect your view. However, my impression was that Snape had always quested to be a powerful man and for acclaim. Now one can say that after the big emotional breakdown, he lost that desire. But I don't buy it. His actions in POA when he was told he would receive the Merlin were written so as to make it exaggeratedly evident that Snape was receving something he desired very much - I mean that he behaved in a boastful, arrogant and preening way (just to be clear). Snape, in my view, wanted to be Dumbledore's #1 man; the most trusted, the only one in his complete confidence - the proverbial right hand man, imo. Dumbledore knew this, imo, and he manipulated Snape a bit in that regard, imo, to make him feel as if that was well on the way to happening. The truth of course was that Dumbledore had no right hand men and took no one completely into his confidence, imj. That was Voldemort's game and he also played it well, strategically moving Snape into that position, imo.

So that is why Dumbledore's trust was important to Snape, imo. But he wanted far more than trust, because Dumbledore readily admitted to everyone (and this was repeated directly to Snape in OOTP by Sirius) - that he trusted Snape. So Snape knew that. What he wanted was to be in Dumbledore's confidence which was why he became upset when he felt Dumbledore was sharing things with Harry an not with him.

But I do not think that it was wrong of Snape to want to get ahead - I mean after all, was he supposed to quest to be #15 on the list? He set his sights high and I don't see anything wrong with that. The problem was twofold. Snape was not a humble man and his arrogance caused him to respond very poorly when what he set his sights on seemed to be slipping away or was snatched away - and that is not a good trait, in my view. In addition, together with wanting to get ahead, Snape desired acclaim (yes the very attention seeking he accused Harry of) and that part of it was not a good trait, imo.

All this is true. But be honest about it. Who thinks logically in a time like that? He later came to realise that doing whatever he could might help him to make things right. I don't see any other reason for it that makes sense, I don't see any other more powerful reason other than that he was intensely sorry. In the same way, I think this is why he still watched out for Harry, even when called a coward, even when insulted, even being a suspect at all times. He brought that on himself. He could have made it better. He could have allowed Dumbledore to tell the world about "The best" of him. So why didn't he? I think that, since Dumbledore said this, Dumbledore and I agree. Similarly, I don't see why one would say they want to die unless they were seriously regretting their life.

You and I are in agreement that he was sorry. I think our discrepancy is merely what he was sorry about. I feel he limited it to Lily his entire life. I cannot be sold the proposition that a person can be sorry for bringing devastation onto another and then badmouth them to their face - I'm sorry - I just can't. It makes absolutely no sense to me. This was not a matter of simple negative comments; the bad mouthing I refer to includes the lies, 1/2 lies, and character misconstruction Snape flung at Harry about him. Why this is so bad? Because of the effect it had on Harry and because Snape knew, prior to saying it, it would have that effect, imo. So I am to believe that Snape intentionally set out to mentally hurt and injure the person he supposedly had remorse and regret for? I don't buy it, not for a second. You couldn't sell me that proposition for negative dollars :lol:. Not that you are trying to of course, but I mean in general, I cannot be convinced of that. And even if in general Snape had no respect for the dead, regret and remorse would cause one to have respect for the dead we helped to murder, imo, and he did not, imo. So since that is my very firm opinion, if you disagree, we would have to just agree to disagree on this.

Well, the first part of this is canon and is true. He did indeed also regret his part of an action that would put her in danger. I just don't think he had the ulterior motive of seeking to save his own skin. I think he was too traumatised to think that through. Quite frankly, he seemed to not care about himself any longer, and he seemed to truly hate himself, again shown by him saying he wished he were dead.

I am not sure how 'saving his own skin' comes into it. Can you clarify? I wasn't meaning to suggest that if that is what you mean. I don't think he went to both in order to save his own skin. I think he went to both to ensure Lily would be saved at all costs.

But he did beg for mercy. On his knees he said "Don't kill me!" When Dumbledore claimed that this would not happen, he then said "I-I come with a warning-no, a request-please...". If we're going to discuss JK Rowling's care in writing her dialogue, then this is one of the moments where Snape shows a spark of sorrow. First, he changed his mind. It wasn't a warning, he came to beg and he knew it. So he begged. He even said "please".

Oh I am not saying he didn't beg. He certainly did, I saw the whole beginning of the conversation as one big effort in begging. But he was begging for Dumbledore to keep Lily safe. Honestly I don't think Snape believed Dumbledore would kill him, but of course he had to be certain :lol:. Dumbledore had disarmed him.

To add to that, when he knew that this wasn't something he would get for nothing, and when asked what he would give in return, he thought about leaving it go, letting her die. But instead, the horror of it got to whatever conscience he had. When asked, he said "Anything".

He showed surprise when Dumbledore asked, but I thought it was because Snape felt he had already given something - he'd given Dumbledore information. This is a very, very, key, very, very important part of this scene. You see, Snape had given Dumbledore very important information, so all that was left (if you read this on the face) was for Dumbledore to give Snape something in return - his promise to protect. But you see, Dumbledore is a fantastic manipulator. And when he asks Snape what he would do for him in return - it dawned on Snape that Dumbledore was asking for something in return for his personal request: to keep Lily safe. That is why he said "Anything".

Dumbledore never said that in so many words, but Snape understood Dumbledore to mean that, imo, that is why his first words to Dumbledore after Lily died were: "you promised to keep her safe." But that is not what Dumbledore promised. He had promised to "hide them all" and nothing else. But to Snape, he took that extra bit of Dumbledore asking what he would do for him to mean that Dumbledore was going to put an extra effort into keeping Lily safe - and Dumbledore knew he thought that too, imo. But he had no plan to do any such thing. He was going to keep them all hidden and safe if possible.

Now you have Snape leaving the meeting on the hill believing that Voldemort might spare Lily; but if he doesn't, Dumbledore would provide extra protection for her. For that, Snape had promised to do anything.

This explains so many things. First, after telling Snape he was disgusted, Snape's response was not all that one would hope for as I pointed out in my last post: "hide them all, then...but keep her - them safe". Dumbledore heard that too remember. He fully understood what Snape still wanted and that didn't include the safety of James and Harry. Meaning, he didn't care about them, he just wanted to ensure that Lily was safe. But at the same time, Snape still banked on the slim chance Voldemort might spare her also. That is why later Dumbledore said: "like you Severus, you too placed your trust in the wrong person, Voldemort". Which makes no sense if one believes that Snape had given up all trust that Voldemort might spare Lily. And it makes no sense to say Dumbledore was talking about Snape prior to his coming to the hill, because that in and of itself would mean he didn't place his trust in Voldemort, and Dumbledore was too wise not to understand that and take it into consideration - and further assimilate it. He would not think Snape had put his trust in Voldemort if when he'd come to the hill he'd completely removed his trust from Voldemort and placed it in Dumbledore - but that is not what happened, imo, and Dumbledore knew it. And Snape didn't deny it in canon.

So that is my impression of what all of those details meant, from the "anything" to the "you said you would keep her safe" - and it is the only reasonable explanation I have been able to see it to this point.

It brings up an interesting point. Later, when Lily was dead, though he had not yet given "Anything", Dumbledore had not seen his side of the bargain fulfilled either. Not his fault, but nonetheless. Her death was not truly Snape's fault in this way. It was Pettigrew's fault. The Potters were already members of the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort would already have wanted them dead surely? It makes sense then, that Snape cannot take full responsibility for this. Sure, he told Voldemort the prophecy. Had he thought it referred to Lily, he never would have uttered a word, to be sure.

Voldemort wanted James and Lily dead? Probably or maybe he felt alive he could win them over to his side - who knows. But Harry? I don't think he would have cared less about their child. It could live. But once he heard the prophecy, his main concern was to kill Harry. He was even willing to allow Lily to live, he said that in his POV. I am sure he would have captured her and possibly given her to Snape or whatever, but James and Lily's deaths were not that important to him any more than any other person fighting against him. And as I have said, he was judicious at times about that, according to his own nefarious plans which we have no idea about.

But Snape is not fully responsible because Voldemort and Peter also colluded to kill the Potters and also because Snape tried to undo at least a portion of what he had done by his effort to keep Lily safe. And in doing so, revealed the plot to Dumbledore. He'd be up for time off for squealing on those he'd colluded with and revealing the plan.

But is that all Dumbledore didn't tell? He also never told that Snape had sworn to protect Harry, sworn that no matter what happened, he would protect Harry. Snape didn't want anybody to know this either. Why would Snape stop him from saying that? I think he was ashamed of what he had done, of his part in spying that was a factor in Lily's death. But I don't see why he would want the truth about his guardian status not told. It would be an honorable thing to have been entrusted, surely?

Snape himself told us why. "never tell Potter's son". He was not accepting the job for James or Harry's sake, he was accepting it for Lily's sake - and only Lily's sake. He didn't want Harry to know that he had promised to do this for Lily's sake because he had ongoing emotions for her. It could be embarassing, but that wasn't important because as you say, if Snape was being honorable about it, he would wish to yell his duty to the world. But he was not being honorable about it, imo. He did not wish any misconstruction placed on what he was doing. And in the memories, when it became plain what he had done - the damage was already done. Harry was well aware that Snape loathed him and his father and had done absolutely nothing directly for them or on their behalf - it had all been done for Lily; that in my judgment was what Snape wished to make extremely clear. Note that imo, Snape couldn't care less if Harry thougt it was dishonorable toward him and his father (or what Harry thought of him as a result - he didn't know the kid from Adam when he made his promise), but only by not telling Harry could it be so construed and understood that this was only for Lily. I myself would have doubts about this issue if Snape had told Harry, because it would show that he wished for Harry to understand the sacrifice he was making and why he was making it - why would he care about such a thing if he loathed Harry? It would not make sense. So that is why I feel JKR felt she had to have it this way - to allow the issue to be perfectly clear. (Not that it is clear to everyone of course, but that is how I always saw it - even before she reiterated that Snape had loathed Harry to his death.)

Imagine what Harry would have had to say to Snape if he had known. Every instance of mistreatment, Harry would have had a lot to say, imo. :lol:.

But again, no parent that we know of ever complained. Snape made everybody work really hard, he accepted nothing less than the best. Admittedly he was cruel, dislikable (new word! Wuhoo!), and downright mean. So he wasn't the nicest person. But he was never, that we know of, complained about. It was just agreed that he was rather cruel. Which I agree with.

Not sure of the point you are making here. You are assuming the kids told their parents things of this type I believe, but in canon, we didn't hear them do so, they just indicated they didn't like him. Sirius was the only adult who seemed to believe that Snape might go to far and he did warn him in person. Lupin taught with him, but he never saw what Snape actually did in class or in private with the students. He only saw Snape make his inappropriate comment about Neville and Lupin showed his feelings about what Snape had said publicly in his response to Snape. We don't know if Dumbledore or other professors ever spoke to Snape about his behavior or if they even knew the full extent of it, but it doesn't appear the kids were informing their parents about it. I don't know why, you would think some kid would. :lol:. But on a literary note: JKR wanted to keep writing her charcter (he was a pleasure to write), so she really couldn't have anyone put a stop to his behavior.

Yes, Snape did say "So the boy must die" quite calmly. But a few seconds later,

Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.
"You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?"

I think he was unhappy about sending Harry to his death, and I do maintain this. Not so much, as you say, because he liked Harry, since he clearly did not, but because it forced his entire purpose for the last 17 years into redundancy. I'd be pretty annoyed too.

It is funny, but why is it that no one seems to feel that Snape would be absolutely shocked - and mortified - by Dumbledore's sudden change in character? He was the benevolent, loving, caring, nurturing, Grandpa of Harry. Now he tells Snape he has been planning ALL ALONG to send him to his death. Snape was as incredulous as I was, imo. That is why JKR said that she felt more people would be sympathetic to how Snape was feeling at that moment than Dumbledore (a phenomenon) - and I did. But it had nothing to do with Harry and everything to do with Dumbledore, imo.

I agree 100% that Snape then began to think about himself and how he was used - and that instead of trying to honor Lily, he had been working to tear her sacrifice to shreds by raising her son for the slaughter. But that was all about Snape and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry either, imo.

I actually tried to read it the other way - on purpose - tossing out any preconceived notions and demanding that I take on the understanding that Snape was speaking in some way about Harry. But there was nothing - only the indirect Link of what Dumbledore was doing with respect to Harry and how that reflected on Dumbledore.

Let me put it this way: You put any other member of the Order (known to us), or put Ron, or Hermione, Luna or Neville in Snape's chair in that room. Right after Dumbledore explained that Harry had to die, I could imagine every single one of them hopping up from their seat and looking at Dumbledore as if he'd gone mad. Horcrux or no horcrux, they would be demanding whether or not Dumbledore had explored every nook and cranny of magic to find a way for Harry to live. Some may have fainted, some may have told Dumbledore he had Knargles in his brain, some may have told Dumbledore that Harry would only die over their dead body, some may have stormed out immediately and found Harry and carried him away - but no one, not one of them, in my judgment, would sit there calmly and repeat "so the boy must die". I doubt Dumbledore would have even gotten to the next bit about how he'd planned it all along because the person would be up in arms and outraged with the information. Even Kingsley, while remaining in his seat (cuz he's cool like that) would have been unwilling to readily except the declaration, imo. They would have understood the reasoning with the horcrux and all, but no one would calmly accept the information, imo.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you've said, but to add to my own reasoning, I used this:

"But this is touching Severus", said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy after all?"

"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!" From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: she landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.

"After all this time?"

"Always." said Snape.

He didn't want to send Harry to his death, because it made him believe that he would be dishonouring the one thing he had tried to make up to her.

I do not understand the link you are making between what happened and was said in that scene and your conclusion that Snape didn't want to send Harry to his death due to dishonor. I do believe that Snape saw that he had not in actuality been working to honor Lily's sacrifice and was angry about that (that is why he said to Dumbledore he felt used and accused him of raising him for the slaughter) - but not based on the portion of the scene you provided. And again, to me, that was all about himself and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry except that he was the "tool" that Snape used to try and honor Lily's sacrifice. Which, imo, was how he saw Harry which is why he could justify mistreating him so badly; as a tool, whatever he did good with respect to the tool (spying and such) was honoring Lily's sacrifice - apart from that, the loathed tool was disregardable to him, in my judgment. So he could do what he wanted, when he wanted as long as he did "something" that could be associated with honoring Lily's sacrifice (spying and such), imo. I feel that also helps explain why Harry's feelings and emotions were of little importance to Snape, imo.

I humbly disagree with you, based simply on what we have read, which I provided above. I disagree, first and foremost, that Dumbledore asked simply to get out of answering questions. He knew he was manipulative and just as cruel as other people. He didn't have to justify that, he knew he never could. I genuinely believe that he asked simply because he didn't believe, after 17 years, that Snape would still love Lily. I also believe that he trusted Snape for a number of further reasons, the most prominent of these being that he had proved he could keep that promise. It was the proof, time and again, that cemented Dumbledore's faith, in my opinion.

Snape would still have followed through with the plan, he had shown that he was not going to waver thus far. I think what upset Dumbledore (not that it has much to do with this, generally :lol:) is that he simply never thought it possible that Snape would still care so much. It was, after all, so very out of character for the Snape we knew so well.

So you think if instead of producing his doe, Snape had said, "the truth is, Dumbledore, I have come to care for Harry greatly...nearly as much as I cared for his mother" - that Dumbledore would have had confidence that Snape would give Harry the message? I can tell you, I do not. That is precisely why I feel Dumbledore had Snape give Harry the message - he was the only one who would for sure, imo, because he loathed Harry. Anyone else might have wavered on such a promise - from those who loved Harry to those who respected him greatly and liked him alot - each and everyone would have great qualms in sending the boy to his death and might fail in the effort for all of their promises, imo. Dumbledore knew this and that was something I think he was double checking. He knew Snape loathed Harry, that had been made plain in the past; but the rant gave him a reason to double check and Snape confirmed that it was still 'all about Lily'.

I am not ademant about the other bit I said. It is possible Dumbledore was surprised Snape still cared for Lily and had hoped Snape was working because inside he'd come to desire the work of good cause to be successful. Thus he would have been surprised that Snape still had emotions for Lily. The tears are debatable though because why tear up over that? That is not such good news. Dumbledore could have been thinking of his own life; his saddness that Snape would have to die for his loyalty to his emotions for Lily; the fact that he's an overblown romantic at heart; or some other reason. I dunno. But the principle reason he asked, imo, is to ensure that Snape still loathed Harry because if he didn't, then his plan would have to change, imo. I didn't mention this before because I thought it was a given, but apparently not. :lol:.

Lily was sorted before Snape (they do it in alphabetical order of last name. Evans before Snape).

Why wouldn't Snape be like Lily, though? If Lily wanting to be in Slytherian because her friend wants to be there won't count to the Hat, then why should Snape's desire to go in Slytherin count to the Hat? If he wants to be in there because his mother was, that is no better than wanting to be in the same house as your friend. If it is because he knows what Slytherin is all about and that's what he wants to be, it would appear that he is wrong about Slytherin. He seems to imply on the train that Slytherins are brainy, so if that's the attraction, the Hat should have stuffed him in Ravenclaw.

So, what exactly went on during that Sorting? Did Snape really know about the characteristics of Slytherin (and lie to Lily) or was he honestly mistaken? Would the sorting Hat take in consideration your preferences if you had a mistaken opinion of the house? Or did his comments on "brawny vs. brainy" not really apply to "Gryffindor vs. Slytherin" in his mind?

When Lily was sorted into Gryffindor (long before Snape was sorted into Slytherin so he had time to think about it), why did Snape not decide to go into Gryffindor? Is this the first indication that we get that Snape will chose Slytherin/Ambition over Lily? Or did he consider going into Gryffindor and we are just not told about it and was he was over-ruled by the hat?

I wonder what the Hat sang that year and if that changed anybody's (e.g. Lily's) mind about which house to be sorted in.

I'm honestly a bit confused about what went on there and I'm not sure if we could ever have a definitive answer.

After re-reading your original post, I think I just misinterpreted what you meant the first time. :P Sorry about that.

However, the only flaw I can see is that Lily was sorted long before Severus was. The sad look she gave him was most likely because she realized she had been sorted into the House with Sirius (he would have gone before her) and the one Potter wanted. :/ As for whether it would take your opinions based on a friendship, I'm not entirly sure. Frankly, the whole sorting system seems to be rather contrived and random. Does it matter more your potential or your past? Does your ideal person matter more than the one you are likely to become? Just how much about you does the Hat learn? Does it find information that even you don't quite know?

And of course, this is entirly off-topic. I'm afraid I've been driving the whole thread off-topic this whole time, as I tend to forget what thread I'm in. /lame :rolleyes:

That is true. Well I would say then she was merely sad that she hadn't gotten into the house they had spoken about, figuring he'd likely be placed there based on what he'd told her. She didn't know what was going on - and I am sure she hadn't noticed or cared where Sirius had been sorted :lol:.

The hat, I feel, looks predominantely at the person and places them. Kids inherit their parent's inherent traits, so often you would likely see kids go to the same houses (although not always) We have no idea if anyone ever spoke to the hat before Harry. No one likely knew they could play a role in the decision. Nonetheless, if the hat had asked her, I presume Lily would have said Slytherin as that is what the friends likely decided on before the fact - which explains her sadness.

But Snape was a prime candidate for Slytherin; he wanted to go there; he was cunning and sly - already spying a little and such, so the hat simply placed him where he would fit, imo. Now keep in mind that didn't mean he was doomed to anything - I personally feel that Slytherin is the greatest house because it is the place where you are most free to become whoever you will - if you have enough gumption to do so. Being cunning and sly (in a good way), reaching your goals by any means (within self set limits) and other traits the hat sung can produce a stellar wizard (meaning good side). So I don't think that either Snape's traits or the fact that he was sorted there said anything negative at all. At that point, he was one of the luckiest kids of all to be sorted into this house of golden opportunities, imo. He, like many others, failed to take advantage of the house in that way while at Hogwarts - but he had the potential to do so, like all Slytherins, imo.

But before you argue any points in the above paragraph, note I am tongue in cheek there because that is the flaw in JKR's plan that I figure she did not take into consideration.

Dude, that paragraph flew so high over my head that I won't even talk about it. I'll say that you're right, but I say it with much head scratching and little inclination to fight about it. :D

So I agree with you that she meant us to see it as an emotional outcry that symbolizes all we as earthly humans would normally understand it to mean. In that light, I see it as Snape being sorry also. But I do not know what in that scene makes you think he is sorry for "everything". He only appeared to be sorry for his act which lead to Lily's death.

Go back a bit in time and think it through with me. Snape made several really huge choices. One of them was joining the Death Eaters. It was due to this that he spied and maligned and handed over the details of that prophecy. His choice to be a dark wizard led directly to him playing a part in Lily's downfall. I agree that he wasn't sorry for everything -yet- but that this was a first step. I also think that it was a huge one, as first steps go. I think we actually do agree on this.

(We actually had some crossed wires here too. I won't go into too much detail, but you said "But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted." And I said "I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. That was about the Lily part of your sentence, not the first bit, which I agree with you on. Sorry about that! :))

I just feel that in a persons deepest, darkest moments, they honestly look back over everything, right to the first step they took, and they wish to God they had never taken it. It's for this reason that I see the remorse in the sentence "I wish I were dead". Get me? :) It's much like that theory that the worst feeling a person can have is knowing that the last words they spoke to another person were spoken in anger.

He didn't care that Harry survived, he didn't care that James died and he mentioned nothing about all of the others that had died when he was a DE. Further, when Dumbledore asked for his promise to help, Snape declared he would, but not to tell anyone the reason why he was helping "especially not Potter's son". To me that flat out says that Snape's promise to help is specifically not done for either James or Harry - only for Lily. As if that is all he has to worry about making up for. So maybe if you explain more I can understand how you see this more comprehensively as that was my impression from the reading.

Again, I don't. I just see it as a first step, one he had to think through in huge detail, much like our talk about "choices" yesterday. It was a first step, brought on only by the threat to her life, but as he thought it through, he because more and more tied up with trying to redeem himself, to the end that he eventually really wished Dumbledore would finally trust him, entirely, again. To say that he felt this way, and he does express feeling this way in the scene where he questions why Dumbledore won't let on his plans, tells me that he felt he was regretful enough and remorseful enough to merit some trust.

I respect your view. However, my impression was that Snape had always quested to be a powerful man and for acclaim. Now one can say that after the big emotional breakdown, he lost that desire. But I don't buy it. His actions in POA when he was told he would receive the Merlin were written so as to make it exaggeratedly evident that Snape was receving something he desired very much - I mean that he behaved in a boastful, arrogant and preening way (just to be clear). Snape, in my view, wanted to be Dumbledore's #1 man; the most trusted, the only one in his complete confidence - the proverbial right hand man, imo. Dumbledore knew this, imo, and he manipulated Snape a bit in that regard, imo, to make him feel as if that was well on the way to happening. The truth of course was that Dumbledore had no right hand men and took no one completely into his confidence, imj. That was Voldemort's game and he also played it well, strategically moving Snape into that position, imo.

Yep. I agree with you on all of this. But my reading of that canon changed when I read Deathly Hallows. In the exact scene you mention, with Snape being told he would be awarded the Order of Merlin, I originally read it as you do. But then I looked back over it. Think about it.

Everybody in the Ministry knew Snape had been a Death Eater. Dumbledore announced as much in that trial with Karkaroff giving information. Dumbledore said that he defected to the good side at "huge personal risk". The fact that Snape was being trusted so completely by the Minister of Magic, in this scene, was a good thing for him. It showed him that, at least in Fudge's eyes, and the eyes of the general Magical community, he had done something heroic, something truly good. I just figured that he maybe felt that they accepted he had redeemed himself.

As for his ambition, yes, he was ambitious. There are few enough people who aren't. Snape needed people to trust him, to rely on him. I think that he actually needed to serve something, somebody, to the best of his abilities, to prove himself. And why wouldn't he? He demonstrated in school that he was a man of many academic talents.

So that is why Dumbledore's trust was important to Snape, imo. But he wanted far more than trust, because Dumbledore readily admitted to everyone (and this was repeated directly to Snape in OOTP by Sirius) - that he trusted Snape. So Snape knew that. What he wanted was to be in Dumbledore's confidence which was why he became upset when he felt Dumbledore was sharing things with Harry an not with him.

Yep. Exactly. :tu: We agree here today.

But I do not think that it was wrong of Snape to want to get ahead - I mean after all, was he supposed to quest to be #15 on the list? He set his sights high and I don't see anything wrong with that. The problem was twofold. Snape was not a humble man and his arrogance caused him to respond very poorly when what he set his sights on seemed to be slipping away or was snatched away - and that is not a good trait, in my view. In addition, together with wanting to get ahead, Snape desired acclaim (yes the very attention seeking he accused Harry of) and that part of it was not a good trait, imo.

Yep. I agree here too. He had bad qualities. We can't just highlight that, since everybody has bad qualities. You're correct, it wasn't a good, but I also agree that it's not "wrong" to want to get ahead.

You and I are in agreement that he was sorry. I think our discrepancy is merely what he was sorry about. I feel he limited it to Lily his entire life. I cannot be sold the proposition that a person can be sorry for bringing devastation onto another and then badmouth them to their face - I'm sorry - I just can't. It makes absolutely no sense to me. This was not a matter of simple negative comments; the bad mouthing I refer to includes the lies, 1/2 lies, and character misconstruction Snape flung at Harry about him. Why this is so bad? Because of the effect it had on Harry and because Snape knew, prior to saying it, it would have that effect, imo. So I am to believe that Snape intentionally set out to mentally hurt and injure the person he supposedly had remorse and regret for? I don't buy it, not for a second. You couldn't sell me that proposition for negative dollars :lol:. Not that you are trying to of course, but I mean in general, I cannot be convinced of that. And even if in general Snape had no respect for the dead, regret and remorse would cause one to have respect for the dead we helped to murder, imo, and he did not, imo. So since that is my very firm opinion, if you disagree, we would have to just agree to disagree on this.

We will have to agree to disagree on most of this. Not necessarily because we disagree on the facts of it though. Here:

So I am to believe that Snape intentionally set out to mentally hurt and injure the person he supposedly had remorse and regret for? I don't buy it, not for a second.

If we're talking about Harry, then I'm glad you're not buying, cos that I would not sell. ;) Severus Snape felt no remorse for Harry Potter. Snape bullied, injured and maimed Harry, because he reminded Snape of James. I see the transference, and I understand it, but that doesn't make it okay. Snape had shown he was capable of being a stronger person than that, and though I do see that the treatment Snape received at James' hands was so bad that Harry himself was disgusted with his father, I don't condone Snape's behaviour here.

But nor do I believe, and this is where we disagree, that he limited his remorse to Lily his entire life. I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters, even if this did come much later on. Though I'm sure that in the end he achieved no satisfaction from James dying, he didn't particularly feel anything else about it either. He didn't care much for Harry Potter. I do think Lily became the primary factor behind his choices in the last half of his life. But I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters. I can't prove this, it's just a personal belief, so I'll look at it from your point of view.

If he did only ever regret his action in Lily's death, fair enough. Looking at it from this point of view, he's still extremely honourable for his abounding compassion, something I would have expected would have been removed under Voldemort and the rule of his mother. He's still brave for choosing to act on one thing that he never thought he would, his love for Lily. He's still respectable, because he watched out for something he disliked inherently, Harry Potter. He's still admirable for his determination to keep a promise, regardless of the fact that it would tear his soul into pieces. And he's still redeemed himself, because his sense of love and compassion taught him that life wasn't black and white. His attraction to a darker side of life was destroyed by that blinding white light in his heart, and the fact that he chose(entirely his own responsibility) the light over the dark despite the personal conflict this caused him, means he is worthy of my admiration. I think the pain he caused himself by being consistent, by keeping his promise, by watching out for a facsimile of James Potter and by forcing himself to work with Sirius especially, counts as general atonement.


I am not sure how 'saving his own skin' comes into it. Can you clarify? I wasn't meaning to suggest that if that is what you mean. I don't think he went to both in order to save his own skin. I think he went to both to ensure Lily would be saved at all costs.

Ah, well that would explain it. I agree with you. I did, in fact, think you were saying he was trying to save his own skin. We're agreeing here too. :tu:

He showed surprise when Dumbledore asked, but I thought it was because Snape felt he had already given something - he'd given Dumbledore information. This is a very, very, key, very, very important part of this scene. You see, Snape had given Dumbledore very important information, so all that was left (if you read this on the face) was for Dumbledore to give Snape something in return - his promise to protect. But you see, Dumbledore is a fantastic manipulator. And when he asks Snape what he would do for him in return - it dawned on Snape that Dumbledore was asking for something in return for his personal request: to keep Lily safe. That is why he said "Anything".

This would make a wonderful point, but for the question of what information Snape had provided Dumbledore? We have no proof that Snape had actually provided Dumbledore with anything useful. Dumbledore knew about the Longbottoms and the Potters, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. he had heard the prophecy. he was no idiot, he worked it out. That's why he hired Sybill Trelawney almost on spot as soon as he heard that prophecy and as soon as he saw Snape. He put two and two together and got the required four. An opportunity fell into his lap when Snape arrived. He showed no surprise that the prophecy referred to Lily. In fact, he corrected Snape, that it really referred to Harry. I am genuinely positive that Dumbledore knew.

Even so, he likely would have tried to save them all, Potters and Longbottoms, he had no reason not to. But having a spy in Voldemort's camp is just a perfect scenario. So yes, he manipulated Snape into doing as he pleased. This adds pity to my list of reasons for being Pro Snape. The poor fool didn't have a clue of his own ignorance when it came to Dumbledore, and he was used more than most in this regard.

Dumbledore never said that in so many words, but Snape understood Dumbledore to mean that, imo, that is why his first words to Dumbledore after Lily died were: "you promised to keep her safe." But that is not what Dumbledore promised. He had promised to "hide them all" and nothing else. But to Snape, he took that extra bit of Dumbledore asking what he would do for him to mean that Dumbledore was going to put an extra effort into keeping Lily safe - and Dumbledore knew he thought that too, imo. But he had no plan to do any such thing. He was going to keep them all hidden and safe if possible.

We're agreed on all of this. I'm just a bit harsher on Dumbledore, eh? ;)

Now you have Snape leaving the meeting on the hill believing that Voldemort might spare Lily; but if he doesn't, Dumbledore would provide extra protection for her. For that, Snape had promised to do anything.

Yes. I agree with you on all of this. :agree:

Voldemort wanted James and Lily dead? Probably or maybe he felt alive he could win them over to his side - who knows. But Harry? I don't think he would have cared less about their child. It could live.

I firmly believe that anything that man felt apathetic about, he just got rid of it anyway to heighten his own sense of self importance. Why wipe out just the parents when the boy was likely to grow up just like them? I know this will sound awful, but it would have been more pragmatic to kill him. In my opinion, anyway.

But Snape is not fully responsible because Voldemort and Peter also colluded to kill the Potters and also because Snape tried to undo at least a portion of what he had done by his effort to keep Lily safe. And in doing so, revealed the plot to Dumbledore. He'd be up for time off for squealing on those he'd colluded with and revealing the plan.

:tu: Yup.

Snape himself told us why. "never tell Potter's son". He was not accepting the job for James or Harry's sake, he was accepting it for Lily's sake - and only Lily's sake. He didn't want Harry to know that he had promised to do this for Lily's sake because he had ongoing emotions for her. It could be embarassing, but that wasn't important because as you say, if Snape was being honorable about it, he would wish to yell his duty to the world.

I take this onboard, but I think his honour would have been lessened if he had yelled to the world about it. It's a funny old thing about honour, the more secret it is the more admirable it is. I wouldn't have felt so much for him in the event of him yelling, I just wondered why. You provided me a very good explanation. Again, the fact that he did accept only for Lily's sake, which is arguably true, he didn't feel true further remorse till later, in my view), to do something for someone he hated without question, adds to his honour. I mean, would you watch over the child of an enemy? That takes strong stuff.

Not sure of the point you are making here. You are assuming the kids told their parents when in canon, we didn't hear them do so, they just indicated they didn't like him.

This is double sided. Being bullied by a teacher is different to student bullying. Indicating they didn't like him is fair enough. If they felt bullied and told their parents, then their parents might have brushed it off as a clash of personalities. If they didn't tell their parents, then it wasn't bad enough, so there would also be no complaint. My point is that either way you look at it, Snape was never moaned about by either his colleagues or the guardians of his students.

The literary note I agree with. It seems a bit inconsistent to me otherwise that the behaviour shown by Snape would never be qustioned, when he did do some very vindictive things.



It is funny, but why is it that no one seems to feel that Snape would be absolutely shocked - and mortified - by Dumbledore's sudden change in character?

Shocked, yes. Mortified, no. Unless we're saying mortifed to have been used so thoroughly, like trash? Then I'll walk the road with you on that.

I agree 100% that Snape then began to think about himself and how he was used - and that instead of trying to honor Lily, he had been working to tear her sacrifice to shreds by raising her son for the slaughter. But that was all about Snape and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry either, imo.

I both agree and disagree here. I agree with you that it went back to Lily, but I disagree in that I think Snape had reached a point where the Dark Arts meant nothing but grief for him. he made the comment in that same conversation that, essentially, he had had enough of watching people die. I think at this point, he was very remorseful for what he had done in total, joining the Death Eaters and all.

I doubt Dumbledore would have even gotten to the next bit about how he'd planned it all along because the person would be up in arms and outraged with the information. Even Kingsley, while remaining in his seat (cuz he's cool like that) would have been unwilling to readily except the declaration, imo. They would have understood the reasoning with the horcrux and all, but no one would calmly accept the information, imo.

Except, ironically, Harry. Only the people who understood it would accept it, and none of those mentioned would have comprehended at all. Harry did. Snape did. Both felt used and manipulated. But this is also very subjective,so I have no other comment to make on it really! :lol:

I do not understand the link you are making between what happened and was said in that scene and your conclusion that Snape didn't want to send Harry to his death due to dishonor. I do believe that Snape saw that he had not in actuality been working to honor Lily's sacrifice and was angry about that (that is why he said to Dumbledore he felt used and accused him of raising him for the slaughter) - but not based on the portion of the scene you provided.

Whichever part you read it from, as long as we agree it is there, we're good.

And again, to me, that was all about himself and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry except that he was the "tool" that Snape used to try and honor Lily's sacrifice. Which, imo, was how he saw Harry which is why he could justify mistreating him so badly; as a tool, whatever he did good with respect to the tool (spying and such) was honoring Lily's sacrifice - apart from that, the loathed tool was disregardable to him, in my judgment. So he could do what he wanted, when he wanted as long as he did "something" that could be associated with honoring Lily's sacrifice (spying and such), imo. I feel that also helps explain why Harry's feelings and emotions were of little importance to Snape, imo.

Yeah, I agree with you on this too, except that, though it did have to do with Lily, I think that Snape had finally realised that his true mistake lay, not in giving over the prophecy, but in turning to the dark in the first place.

So you think if instead of producing his doe, Snape had said, "the truth is, Dumbledore, I have come to care for Harry greatly...nearly as much as I cared for his mother" - that Dumbledore would have had confidence that Snape would give Harry the message? I can tell you, I do not.

I think that's taking it to extremes of what I think. I think, had Snape decided that he did care for Harry, the result would have been the same. Harry would have walked to his death, the same. Snape would have passed the message to him. Same. See, Snape, for all his compassion and love, had come to really believe in Dumbledore. It disgusted him that he would be expected to give that service. But he did it anyway. Because he had given his word, which he proved, on more than one occasion, that he would not break.

That is precisely why I feel Dumbledore had Snape give Harry the message - he was the only one who would for sure, imo, because he loathed Harry.

That, however, is fair enough of an appraisal. I just think that it underestimates Snape's promise and the extent to which he was willing to keep it.

I am not ademant about the other bit I said. It is possible Dumbledore was surprised Snape still cared for Lily and had hoped Snape was working because inside he'd come to desire the work of good cause to be successful. Thus he would have been surprised that Snape still had emotions for Lily. The tears are debatable though because why tear up over that? That is not such good news. Dumbledore could have been thinking of his own life; his saddness that Snape would have to die for his loyalty to his emotions for Lily; the fact that he's an overblown romantic at heart; or some other reason. I dunno.

It's interesting that you raise this. I see this as Dumbledore's redeeming sense coming through. He was a manipulative git, yes. But he was always, always, so sorry for what he did to people. He was likely still surprised because he never expected that, in looking at Harry every day, with his mothers eyes pierced onto his fathers face, Snape would still love those eyes so much that they were the last thing he asked to see.

Dude, that paragraph flew so high over my head that I won't even talk about it. I'll say that you're right, but I say it with much head scratching and little inclination to fight about it. :D

:rotfl:. Just think that in HP universe, there is an afterworld where the brave wizards go - the rest remain in the earthly wizard world as ghosts. If you look at many of the statements in canon in light of that, they don't always make sense. Someone posted like 20 statements once and it was quite hilarious. But again, I don't think JKR took that into consideration while she was writing.

Go back a bit in time and think it through with me. Snape made several really huge choices. One of them was joining the Death Eaters. It was due to this that he spied and maligned and handed over the details of that prophecy. His choice to be a dark wizard led directly to him playing a part in Lily's downfall. I agree that he wasn't sorry for everything -yet- but that this was a first step. I also think that it was a huge one, as first steps go. I think we actually do agree on this.

I don't know what you mean by first step. To me, it included only regret for having given the prophecy because Voldemort decided to target Lily. All the other stuff you mentioned wasn't on Snape's mind at the time, imo.

(We actually had some crossed wires here too. I won't go into too much detail, but you said "But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted." And I said "I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. That was about the Lily part of your sentence, not the first bit, which I agree with you on. Sorry about that! :))

Right; this is a week later and I really don't think that "I wish I was dead" meant anything more than what I wrote above at that point. If JKR wanted to show that it meant more, I think she would have had Snape make that clear to the reader. His entire rant was focused on Lily's death.

I just feel that in a persons deepest, darkest moments, they honestly look back over everything, right to the first step they took, and they wish to God they had never taken it. It's for this reason that I see the remorse in the sentence "I wish I were dead". Get me? :) It's much like that theory that the worst feeling a person can have is knowing that the last words they spoke to another person were spoken in anger.

Many people do, I agree. However, Snape was a very selfish man, imo, at that time. He was thinking of himself and his loss. If he wished he were dead because of all of the atrocities that had occurred while he was a death eater; for Harry being an Orphan and for James dying, then that was not made clear in canon to me. There was no talk of doing anything for James, it was all centered around Lily - Snape in fact declared he would not be doing anything for James, imo. So I would have to disagree on this one.

Again, I don't. I just see it as a first step, one he had to think through in huge detail, much like our talk about "choices" yesterday. It was a first step, brought on only by the threat to her life, but as he thought it through, he because more and more tied up with trying to redeem himself, to the end that he eventually really wished Dumbledore would finally trust him, entirely, again. To say that he felt this way, and he does express feeling this way in the scene where he questions why Dumbledore won't let on his plans, tells me that he felt he was regretful enough and remorseful enough to merit some trust.

I don't disagree it was a first step. But the step you have him taking (if I understand you) is gigantic. I believe you feel he felt remorse for "everything", at that time but I don't.

Yep. I agree with you on all of this. But my reading of that canon changed when I read Deathly Hallows. In the exact scene you mention, with Snape being told he would be awarded the Order of Merlin, I originally read it as you do. But then I looked back over it. Think about it.

Everybody in the Ministry knew Snape had been a Death Eater. Dumbledore announced as much in that trial with Karkaroff giving information. Dumbledore said that he defected to the good side at "huge personal risk". The fact that Snape was being trusted so completely by the Minister of Magic, in this scene, was a good thing for him. It showed him that, at least in Fudge's eyes, and the eyes of the general Magical community, he had done something heroic, something truly good. I just figured that he maybe felt that they accepted he had redeemed himself.

Well I feel that is a matter of interpretation. I think that a person who felt the gratitude you are indicating would not immediately attempt to take advantage of the situtation and try to get Harry expelled. I don't think Snape was thinking in terms of gratitude. I believe he was thinking in terms of attaining an honor he felt was due to him and that the Minister would therefore listen kindly and perhaps act on his suggestion.

But nor do I believe, and this is where we disagree, that he limited his remorse to Lily his entire life. I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters, even if this did come much later on. Though I'm sure that in the end he achieved no satisfaction from James dying, he didn't particularly feel anything else about it either. He didn't care much for Harry Potter. I do think Lily became the primary factor behind his choices in the last half of his life. But I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters. I can't prove this, it's just a personal belief, so I'll look at it from your point of view.

I have seriously never considered whether Snape regretted joining the Death Eaters. There are many considerations so I would have to think about it.

Snape said to Harry: "you would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black." Funny the "key" moment that Snape selects with respect to James' death - one in which he can lay blame on James for his own death, imo. Death by arrogance. The key moment is not when Snape delivered the prophecy, or when Voldemort targeted James (and family), nor when Peter relayed their whereabouts; no, for Snape James died because he was arrogant. I would say Snape found satisfaction in being able to blame the victim for his own death. It removed some of his own culpability (and that of Voldemort's and Peter's (who of course he thought had been Black.) And note, although the same applied to Lily, Snape arbitrarily left her right out of it because for whatever reason, imo, he didn't feel she deserved to die. Actually, I don't think he felt she deserved to die for any reason, even if she'd been arrogant in trusting Black. :lol:.

In addition, Snape seemed highly satisfied everytime he disrepected James' memory before Harry, smirking and sneering and such, imo. So I would not agree that Snape got no satisfaction from James dying; I feel he made an enjoyable past time of it and was quite satisfied in that regard.


If he did only ever regret his action in Lily's death, fair enough. Looking at it from this point of view, he's still extremely honourable for his abounding compassion, something I would have expected would have been removed under Voldemort and the rule of his mother. He's still brave for choosing to act on one thing that he never thought he would, his love for Lily. He's still respectable, because he watched out for something he disliked inherently, Harry Potter. He's still admirable for his determination to keep a promise, regardless of the fact that it would tear his soul into pieces. And he's still redeemed himself, because his sense of love and compassion taught him that life wasn't black and white. His attraction to a darker side of life was destroyed by that blinding white light in his heart, and the fact that he chose(entirely his own responsibility) the light over the dark despite the personal conflict this caused him, means he is worthy of my admiration. I think the pain he caused himself by being consistent, by keeping his promise, by watching out for a facsimile of James Potter and by forcing himself to work with Sirius especially, counts as general atonement.

Now that is the story I feel JKR is trying to sell more or less. But I am not sure what she expected me to make of the rest of the series. Was I to go back and rip out every page on which Snape mistreated Harry? Then yes, I could see Snape as having been "honorable for his abounding compassion". Unfortunately, for me, "abounding compassion" is not directed at one person, selfishly, obsessively and possessively to the degree it makes you vindictive, cruel an hateful. Since that is how I see Snape's emotions for Lily (which is what I mean everytime I use the euphemism "emotion for Lily"), I cannot follow this river of thought. To me, it is honestly more like a wild white water rapid that no one could survive attempting to travel. But I do respect your view, and hers and everyone else's, I just don't buy into it. :shrug:

This would make a wonderful point, but for the question of what information Snape had provided Dumbledore? We have no proof that Snape had actually provided Dumbledore with anything useful. Dumbledore knew about the Longbottoms and the Potters, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. he had heard the prophecy. he was no idiot, he worked it out. That's why he hired Sybill Trelawney almost on spot as soon as he heard that prophecy and as soon as he saw Snape. He put two and two together and got the required four. An opportunity fell into his lap when Snape arrived. He showed no surprise that the prophecy referred to Lily. In fact, he corrected Snape, that it really referred to Harry. I am genuinely positive that Dumbledore knew.

Yes Dumbledore definitely knew about the Potters and the Longbottoms - he was the one who had heard the prophecy - all of it in fact. That is why the couples were in hiding. And Snape knew he knew because Dumbledore was the listener when he overheard the prophecy. So why did Snape go to Dumbledore on the hill?

The answer to that question is the "new information" that Snape revealed to Dumbledore and why he felt that he'd given Dumbledore valuable information. I agree it was.

Even so, he likely would have tried to save them all, Potters and Longbottoms, he had no reason not to.

Ah, but now he knew where to focus his efforts which is why he suggested the fidelius Charm according to Fudge. The information was very helpful and valuable to him.

But having a spy in Voldemort's camp is just a perfect scenario. So yes, he manipulated Snape into doing as he pleased. This adds pity to my list of reasons for being Pro Snape. The poor fool didn't have a clue of his own ignorance when it came to Dumbledore, and he was used more than most in this regard.

Indeed, except of course, imo, Snape's motivation was so tarnished and poor, that I cannot feel any pity for him in this particular situation. I feel he deserved to be manipulated, it was for his own good, imo.

We're agreed on all of this. I'm just a bit harsher on Dumbledore, eh? ;)

I am also, but not in this scene.

I firmly believe that anything that man felt apathetic about, he just got rid of it anyway to heighten his own sense of self importance. Why wipe out just the parents when the boy was likely to grow up just like them? I know this will sound awful, but it would have been more pragmatic to kill him. In my opinion, anyway.

Oh sure, but Voldemort would not be hunting Harry. And James and Lily could be killed on a mission. The point is, he had not targeted them specifically prior to this - obviously or Snape would have acted sooner I suppose. Which is that old plot hole of why Snape wasn't concerned prior to Lily being targeted directly, seeing as the group he was with was killing off Order members, like Lily, all the time. But that is a dead end road as JKR never addressed as far as I know.

I take this onboard, but I think his honour would have been lessened if he had yelled to the world about it. It's a funny old thing about honour, the more secret it is the more admirable it is. I wouldn't have felt so much for him in the event of him yelling, I just wondered why. You provided me a very good explanation. Again, the fact that he did accept only for Lily's sake, which is arguably true, he didn't feel true further remorse till later, in my view), to do something for someone he hated without question, adds to his honour. I mean, would you watch over the child of an enemy? That takes strong stuff.

I would agree 100% if Snape were merely the strong, honorable silent type who wished to do good deeds and keep them from everyone out of modesty. However, that was not the case, imo. His motivation lay elsewhere in my judgment.

This is double sided. Being bullied by a teacher is different to student bullying. Indicating they didn't like him is fair enough. If they felt bullied and told their parents, then their parents might have brushed it off as a clash of personalities. If they didn't tell their parents, then it wasn't bad enough, so there would also be no complaint. My point is that either way you look at it, Snape was never moaned about by either his colleagues or the guardians of his students. The literary note I agree with. It seems a bit inconsistent to me otherwise that the behaviour shown by Snape would never be qustioned, when he did do some very vindictive things.

If the point is that it couldn't have been so bad because no parents ever complained, then it would contradict JKR's statement that Snape's bullying of the children was one of the worst things a person could do, in her opinion. So it was as bad as it appeared, imo, and there was more that we did not see because Harry didn't see it. Snape had other courses and 3/4 of the student body considered him cruel and sarcastic (CoS). So I think parents and Dumbledore didn't intervene mainly for literary purposes. JKR indicated that Dumbledore felt it was good for the children to exprience horrible professor's like Snape, which doesn't say much for Dumbledore, imo, but there you have it, JKR's words. :lol:

I both agree and disagree here. I agree with you that it went back to Lily, but I disagree in that I think Snape had reached a point where the Dark Arts meant nothing but grief for him. he made the comment in that same conversation that, essentially, he had had enough of watching people die. I think at this point, he was very remorseful for what he had done in total, joining the Death Eaters and all.

Then Snape's statement in issuing his doe was a lie? I thought he was being honest. That is why he was keeping his promise to Dumbledore. He was caught in a web of deception with being a spy ~ but if that had not been forced upon him, I don't believe he would have volunteered to do it. He would have probably stayed out of the war altogether, imo. That is where I think he was coming from. His improvement in not watching those die he could save was a good one, but imo, had nothing to do with his service to Dumbledore.

Except, ironically, Harry.

Harry could not count in this as it was he who had to make the decision to sacrifice his own life - based on what I was saying. I was speaking of someone being complicit in sending him to his death ~ he could not do that, it is impossible :lol:.

I think that's taking it to extremes of what I think. I think, had Snape decided that he did care for Harry, the result would have been the same. Harry would have walked to his death, the same. Snape would have passed the message to him. Same. See, Snape, for all his compassion and love, had come to really believe in Dumbledore. It disgusted him that he would be expected to give that service. But he did it anyway. Because he had given his word, which he proved, on more than one occasion, that he would not break.

I would respectfully disagree. But more importantly, Dumbledore could no longer trust that Snape would actually do it; as things stood, he could, imo.

That, however, is fair enough of an appraisal. I just think that it underestimates Snape's promise and the extent to which he was willing to keep it.

It does. But I feel that Snape did that himself because some of the things Snape did to Harry I cannot place in the category of protection. In my view, there were times when Harry required protection from Snape. In the worst of these times, he got it, sometimes from unlikely sources, imo. So the extent was not really all that great in my opinion. According to JKR, Snape loathed Harry, and even if a reader does not agree, from JKR's viewpoint when writing, that is what she believed according to her statement. So, I don't think she intended that Dumbledore believe otherwise, being wise and all. If he knew that and could count on it, that served as insurance that Snape would not be swayed by emotions of care or like from delivering the message, imo. That is my only point.

A number of new issues...and one for me to think about. :lol:. I'll give it some thought and get back to you on that. ;)

:rotfl:. Just think that in HP universe, there is an afterworld where the brave wizards go - the rest remain in the earthly wizard world as ghosts. If you look at many of the statements in canon in light of that, they don't always make sense. Someone posted like 20 statements once and it was quite hilarious. But again, I don't think JKR took that into consideration while she was writing.

I know this is a total aside, but I always thought the reason a person became a ghost was not lack of bravery, but an unwillingness to face death? Wasn't that what Nick told Harry? I have to argue that being afraid of death doesn't mean you're not brave. It just means you have a fear, like anyone else. Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die.

I don't know what you mean by first step. To me, it included only regret for having given the prophecy because Voldemort decided to target Lily. All the other stuff you mentioned wasn't on Snape's mind at the time, imo.

That was his first step. He was sorry for his action because Lily was dragged into it. I think it was later that more began to hit him over the head like bricks, and later when he felt remorse for having ever joined the Death Eaters. Dumbledore says, and I agree with him, that handing over the prophecy was the largest source of remorse in Snape's life. But I just believe myself that he would later too have seriously regretted joining the dark side at all. It destroyed any idea of a normal life he might have been able to have.

Right; this is a week later and I really don't think that "I wish I was dead" meant anything more than what I wrote above at that point. If JKR wanted to show that it meant more, I think she would have had Snape make that clear to the reader. His entire rant was focused on Lily's death

As in, you think that she just meant him to infer that he wished he were dead to appease himself for what had happened to Lily? I agree with this, but I think that feeling that entirely cruddy about it made him think things through more, perhaps very slowly, over the following years. I don't think he felt full remorse for everything right at that moment, I just think it started him to thinking properly. I should have made that clearer, sorry! :)

I don't disagree it was a first step. But the step you have him taking (if I understand you) is gigantic. I believe you feel he felt remorse for "everything", at that time but I don't.

Not at that time, no. Again, and I'm sorry this hasn't been clearer for you! :(, I think he at that time felt only his own loss and wished he were dead because she was lost to him, permanently, but I do think it started him on a road to thinking through everything, and seriously rethinking his life.

It was the first time he had ever felt remorse for something this huge, so that's why I say it was a huge step.

To say that his worst memory, forever, involved the childhood name calling of "mudblood" to her in a time of personal stress, I argue, strenuously, that he regretted everything from this point (the name calling) onward. If he didn't, then why was finding out she had died not his worst memory? he certainly took it exceptionally badly, so why woudl he not recall the pain he felt then? The memories were both interconnected, so why was the earlier one his worst one? Because he seriously regretted earlier choices he made too, not just her death and his role in it.

Well I feel that is a matter of interpretation. I think that a person who felt the gratitude you are indicating would not immediately attempt to take advantage of the situtation and try to get Harry expelled. I don't think Snape was thinking in terms of gratitude. I believe he was thinking in terms of attaining an honor he felt was due to him and that the Minister would therefore listen kindly and perhaps act on his suggestion.

Then the only thing I can say here is that our interpretations differ. :)
I also don't think Harry would ever be expelled, he was safe at Hogwarts and that was where he needed to be, for as long as possible. Snape doubtless knew this, but still, yes, tried to make life difficult for him. I figure that this comes down to his bitterness at the trio attacking him. He lashed out. Again, very mean, especially when he had enough knowledge to be the bigger person, but Snape had issues with this kind of thing. He also retained his malignity to Sirius, despite the number of years that had passed between them.

I have seriously never considered whether Snape regretted joining the Death Eaters. There are many considerations so I would have to think about it.

Enjoy!!! :tu: :lol:

Snape said to Harry: "you would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black." Funny the "key" moment that Snape selects with respect to James' death - one in which he can lay blame on James for his own death, imo. Death by arrogance.

You're wrong. :). The key moment Snape selects at this moment is one in which he can lay the blame on James for Lily's death, first and foremost.

He never cared about James other than laying blame, but he knew, he always knew, even when they were in school, that James had a much more noble character than Snape himself had. Snape would have fully expected that James would have laid his trust in the right person, not the wrong person, as Snape himself did.

I would argue that this proved to Snape that he and James were each on a level with regard to Lily. Each put their trust in the wrong person in attempting to bring her closer to to keep her safe or win her over, whatever reason you choose. And each, therefore, was deserving of her. Neither one of them evaded this fatal flaw. It disgusted Snape that James emerged the victor, when James was also later unable to save her.

I think this reasoning is also one reason why he continues to attack James' character, long after his death, even aside from the fact that he hated him so.

Furthermore, though that comment is a very harsh one (Snape's comment, I mean :)), he said it because Harry yelled at him first-"Just because they made a fool of you at school you won't even listen-". he struck a nerve. They did not make a fool of Snape in school, they bullied him, Harry later admits this himself. His father did strut around the school as though he owned it, he did think he was the best at everything, all of this was correct. Harry's facts were entirely biased and he didn't know the truth. This struck a nerve in Snape, who had the same facts regarding the situation as everyone else had. As he saw it, judiciously, Harry should actually have been thanking him for "saving them". As it was, Harry did no such thing, having heard more of the true story than Snape had.

Now, I'm not saying that Snape went there with the intent of saving anyone. I don't even think that he knew Harry was there, he just followed because he saw that Lupin was going and it caught his attention. He was determined to catch Sirius Black. Harry thought this was vengeance for the bullying in school, but it was actually because of Lily.

EDIT: Again, zgirnius has cleared this up in my head. It seems that Snape did indeed know Harry was there, or at least that he worked it out along the way, when he saw the cloak. He mentioned the second he arrived to Harry directly that the cloak had been a huge help. To add to this, he was out of breath for some time when he reached there, indicating that he ran the whole way. I figure, as Zgirnius does, (and kudos to her!), that he copped that harry was in there, freaked, and ran faster.

I wonder what would have happened had they not knocked him out? Just a thought, nothing really to do with this. As soon as he saw Pettigrew, he would have wanted to listen, he would have wanted to know the truth about why Lily died. He too would have wanted revenge, against the right person.

The key moment is not when Snape delivered the prophecy, or when Voldemort targeted James (and family), nor when Peter relayed their whereabouts; no, for Snape James died because he was arrogant. I would say Snape found satisfaction in being able to blame the victim for his own death. It removed some of his own culpability (and that of Voldemort's and Peter's (who of course he thought had been Black.) And note, although the same applied to Lily, Snape arbitrarily left her right out of it because for whatever reason, imo, he didn't feel she deserved to die. Actually, I don't think he felt she deserved to die for any reason, even if she'd been arrogant in trusting Black. :lol:.

This, however, is also all true. I support both points because they both make sense to me. I think Snape loved to blame James, to make his own conscience stop yelling at him that it was Snape's own fault, and I think he also loved to blame James because he didn't see, in the end, the difference between them with regard to Lily. Had James been able to save her, though Snape still would not have liked him, he would have made his peace that Lily had made the correct choice.

In addition, Snape seemed highly satisfied everytime he disrepected James' memory before Harry, smirking and sneering and such, imo. So I would not agree that Snape got no satisfaction from James dying; I feel he made an enjoyable past time of it and was quite satisfied in that regard.

He made an enjoyable pastime out of mocking James to rile Harry. He didn't make an enjoyable pastime out of saying harsh words as you quoted above. And he certainly never made fun of the circumstances of James's death. He liked annoying Harry, but hurting Harry with comments about his father's death only reminded him of Lily.

Now that is the story I feel JKR is trying to sell more or less. But I am not sure what she expected me to make of the rest of the series. Was I to go back and rip out every page on which Snape mistreated Harry? Then yes, I could see Snape as having been "honorable for his abounding compassion". Unfortunately, for me, "abounding compassion" is not directed at one person, selfishly, obsessively and possessively to the degree it makes you vindictive, cruel an hateful. Since that is how I see Snape's emotions for Lily (which is what I mean everytime I use the euphemism "emotion for Lily"), I cannot follow this river of thought. To me, it is honestly more like a wild white water rapid that no one could survive attempting to travel. But I do respect your view, and hers and everyone else's, I just don't buy into it. :shrug:

I think the fact that he only ever felt compassion for one person makes it heroic. I mean, would you bother, honestly, if you only felt compassion for one person? Pft. I wouldn't. And if I so wouldn't, then why would he? I'm certainly not as nasty as he was seen to be. I have stood by ever other thing you've said regarding his bad behaviour. It can't be discounted. But nor can I discount the fact that such a tiny piece of good conquered the rest of him. But we are, it seems, destined to disagree. And such a pity, you came so highly recommended. *sigh*. ;)

Ah, but now he knew where to focus his efforts which is why he suggested the fidelius Charm according to Fudge. The information was very helpful and valuable to him.

Fair enough, I do take this on board. But I can't help but say that with hindsight, this was not a good plan. Also, in knowing later that his deal with Snape was broken as soon as Lily died, Dumbledore did the wrong thing in manipulating him. I'm not sure how you justify this behaviour, when you are unwilling to justify Snape's. No offence, obviously :). I just don't see where you get the following idea from:

Indeed, except of course, imo, Snape's motivation was so tarnished and poor, that I cannot feel any pity for him in this particular situation. I feel he deserved to be manipulated, it was for his own good, imo.

Would that be a suggestion of "for the greater good"? Because much though I see where you're going, I think it makes you appear to judge based on double standards. It wasn't alright for Snape to manipulate or entice, but Dumbledore could do it to Snape because Snape was rude and arrogant? I don't follow this line of thinking. Of course, it might be me misreading what you have written, in which case, oops. He deserved to be manipulated because he made a choice that didn't include two people he didn't care about? I'm just not sure that this can justify Dumbledore. Explain me! :lol:

Oh sure, but Voldemort would not be hunting Harry. And James and Lily could be killed on a mission. The point is, he had not targeted them specifically prior to this - obviously or Snape would have acted sooner I suppose. Which is that old plot hole of why Snape wasn't concerned prior to Lily being targeted directly, seeing as the group he was with was killing off Order members, like Lily, all the time. But that is a dead end road as JKR never addressed as far as I know.

I consider this a total inconsistency, and always have done. Why did he not care up to this point? She was already in the Order, so he might have crossed paths with her eventually anyway, and been called upon to kill her. It's rather unbelievable in this sense, that he wasn't otherwise concerned.

EDIT: The wonderful zgirnius has changed my mind! She points out that psychologically, it makes great sense, since Snape likely tried to get over her when he could see her choosing James Potter. It does reconcile a lot, and it makes perfect sense that this "bad influence" aided him in his decision to join the Death Eaters.


I would agree 100% if Snape were merely the strong, honorable silent type who wished to do good deeds and keep them from everyone out of modesty. However, that was not the case, imo. His motivation lay elsewhere in my judgment.

I'm not saying he wished to do good deeds and keep them secret, it's more that he did do the good deeds and he did keep them secret. Where do you suppose his motivation lay? Surely his motivation lay entirely in fulfilling the promise he made in order to try to make up her sacrifice? Or am I missing something?

If the point is that it couldn't have been so bad because no parents ever complained, then it would contradict JKR's statement that Snape's bullying of the children was one of the worst things a person could do, in her opinion. So it was as bad as it appeared, imo, and there was more that we did not see because Harry didn't see it. Snape had other courses and 3/4 of the student body considered him cruel and sarcastic (CoS). So I think parents and Dumbledore didn't intervene mainly for literary purposes. JKR indicated that Dumbledore felt it was good for the children to exprience horrible professor's like Snape, which doesn't say much for Dumbledore, imo, but there you have it, JKR's words. :lol:

Taking it as a literary meander purely to ensure things went according to plan, this is quite an inconsistency too. I don't think we'll be able to further engage with it other than to say that Snape was mean to the students, but that equally, nothing was ever said back to him by Dumbledore. In a literary way, it creates a bit of a hole with relation to both Snape and Dumbledore, but there's little we can do about that. Does look bad for Dumbledore though, poor guy. He's really taking a blasting over the last year! :lol:

Then Snape's statement in issuing his doe was a lie? I thought he was being honest. That is why he was keeping his promise to Dumbledore. He was caught in a web of deception with being a spy ~ but if that had not been forced upon him, I don't believe he would have volunteered to do it. He would have probably stayed out of the war altogether, imo. That is where I think he was coming from. His improvement in not watching those die he could save was a good one, but imo, had nothing to do with his service to Dumbledore.

No, it wasn't a lie. It was the truth. He was being perfectly honest that it had all been for her. But he also suggests that he's tired and has had enough of watching people die. As you say yourself, He probably would have stayed out of the war altogether were it not for his job. That means that in some way, he must have regretted joining the death eaters. Otherwise, I doubt we would both agree that unless he had taken on his post as spy, he would have stayed out of the war altogether. It was all for Lily, but that's not to say he wasn't sorry for other things too.

I would respectfully disagree. But more importantly, Dumbledore could no longer trust that Snape would actually do it; as things stood, he could, imo.

This, sadly, is entirely subjective, and when things get subjective, we disagree. What little we have based of it in canon, regarding promises, tells me the opposite to what it tells you. Also, I want to clear up a discrepancy in that paragraph. It should read as follows, (the bold print is the bit I forgot)

I think that's taking it to extremes of what I think. I think, had Snape decided that he did care for Harry, the result would have been the same. Harry would have walked to his death, the same. Snape would have passed the message to him. Same. See, Snape, for all his compassion and love, had come to really believe in Dumbledore. It disgusted him that he would be expected to give that service that required him to kill Dumbledore. But he did it anyway. Because he had given his word, which he proved, on more than one occasion, that he would not break.

I'd imagine this now also makes more sense! ;)

It does. But I feel that Snape did that himself because some of the things Snape did to Harry I cannot place in the category of protection. In my view, there were times when Harry required protection from Snape. In the worst of these times, he got it, sometimes from unlikely sources, imo. So the extent was not really all that great in my opinion. According to JKR, Snape loathed Harry, and even if a reader does not agree, from JKR's viewpoint when writing, that is what she believed according to her statement. So, I don't think she intended that Dumbledore believe otherwise, being wise and all. If he knew that and could count on it, that served as insurance that Snape would not be swayed by emotions of care or like from delivering the message, imo. That is my only point.

There's protection, and there's protection. Protecting Harry from a flobberworm attack is not in Snape's list of things to protect him from. He was hired expressly to guard Harry from Lord Voldemort, because that was where the danger lay, and which he did, in my opinion, to the best of his ability over a period of six and a half years.

A number of new issues...and one for me to think about. :lol:. I'll give it some thought and get back to you on that. ;)

Productive conversation, huh?! :lol: Have fun!

Now, I'm not saying that Snape went there with the intent of saving anyone. I don't even think that he knew Harry was there, he just followed because he saw that Lupin was going and it caught his attention.

He was not trying to save anyone when he left the castle; on that I would agree. But before he entered the passageway under the Willow, he was on a rescue mission, in my opinion. He found, and used, the Invisibility Cloak he found discarded by Harry. I think the fact that hew was still somewhat breathless even after listening to Lupin go on for a few pages, is our evidence that he was worried enough to run down the passage (rather as Harry himself had previously, in his hurry to rescue Ron).

I consider this a total inconsistency, and always have done. You're entirely correct, of course. Why did he not care up to this point? She was already in the Order, so he might have crossed paths with her eventually anyway, and been called upon to kill her. It's rather unbelievable in this sense, that he wasn't otherwise concerned.

It makes enormous psychological sense to me. I don't think he spent his sixth and seventh years, and time as a Death Eater, pining and sighing over his loss of the fair Lily Evans. Instead, I think he did exactly what some critics of the character's story arc suggest he should have done - he tried to "get over her". How? By telling himself that he did not care what she though of him, that he did not care if she and that arrogant Potter jerk lived or died, and by throwing all his efforts into his other friendships, which led to his membership in the Death Eaters.

Fortunately for the Potterverse, he did not succeed, this was all just denial, and he could not longer hide from himself that he still cared, when he learned that Voldemoirt was planning to kill Lily because of something Snape himself had reported to him. It's all well and good not to care in theory - things are different when there is some certainty, it seems to me.

There's protection, and there's protection. Protecting Harry from a flobberworm attack is not in Snape's list of things to protect him from. He was hired expressly to guard Harry from Lord Voldemort, because that was where the danger lay, and which he did, in my opinion, to the best of his ability over a period of six and a half years.

Indeed, this is in fact the reason Snape initially gives for not wanting to help Albus - that Harry has no need of protection.

He was not trying to save anyone when he left the castle; on that I would agree. But before he entered the passageway under the Willow, he was on a rescue mission, in my opinion. He found, and used, the Invisibility Cloak he found discarded by Harry. I think the fact that hew was still somewhat breathless even after listening to Lupin go on for a few pages, is our evidence that he was worried enough to run down the passage (rather as Harry himself had previously, in his hurry to rescue Ron).


Though I can see it from that point of view, and though I love Snape as much as you do (:drool: :)), I just think he wanted to catch Sirius Black. He had already expressed concern about Lupin helping Black into the castle, and he was overtaken with feelings of vengeance. He legged it there so that he could get Black, purely out of vengeance for Lily. A secondary theme might have been protection, but I don't think it was primary in his head at all. He does express interest in getting Harry, Ron and Hermione out, proving that once again, his promise did in fact take precedence when he found Harry there. I also figure that this was another reason why he yelled at Harry. The boy was making things difficult for him, at the end of the day. So I'll go 50/50, but I don't think he knew Harry was there needing protection, so I figure that mostly he just wanted vengeance.

It makes enormous psychological sense to me. I don't think he spent his sixth and seventh years, and time as a Death Eater, pining and sighing over his loss of the fair Lily Evans. Instead, I think he did exactly what some critics of the character's story arc suggest he should have done - he tried to "get over her". How? By telling himself that he did not care what she though of him, that he did not care if she and that arrogant Potter jerk lived or died, and by throwing all his efforts into his other friendships, which led to his membership in the Death Eaters.

Fortunately for the Potterverse, he did not succeed, this was all just denial, and he could not longer hide from himself that he still cared, when he learned that Voldemoirt was planning to kill Lily because of something Snape himself had reported to him. It's all well and good not to care in theory - things are different when there is some certainty, it seems to me.

You've provided me the answer I was so desperately looking for! :tu: Thank you for working through that. I couldn't get it to make sense in my head! it does reconcile a lot, and it makes perfect sense that this "bad influence" (wickedwickedboy, are you listening here?! :)), aided him in his decision to join the Death Eaters.

zgirnius, I owe you one. ;) I'll make your cake next year, okay?! :D

Indeed, this is in fact the reason Snape initially gives for not wanting to help Albus - that Harry has no need of protection.

Yep! :D

Though I can see it from that point of view, and though I love Snape as much as you do (:drool: :)), I just think he wanted to catch Sirius Black. He had already expressed concern about Lupin helping Black into the castle, and he was overtaken with feelings of vengeance. He legged it there so that he could get Black, purely out of vengeance for Lily.

Once Lupin and Black where in the tunnel, he had no need to hurry down the tunnel, he had them trapped. Also, unlike Lupin, he was well aware of the time of month, so he had excellent reason to proceed with deliberation. Were I him (and ignorant of the Trio's predicament), I would have waited for them to come back out and not gone in at all, instead of running into the tunnel.

I'm a little unclear on one point. You think he only ever knew Harry was there after he went into the Shack? However eager to catch Sirius, he strikes me as someone who would at least wonder at the source of the oh-so-conveniently dropped Invisibility Cloak that he found and used.



zgirnius, I owe you one. ;) I'll make your cake next year, okay?! :D

:lol: Thanks!

I'm a little unclear on one point. You think he only ever knew Harry was there after he went into the Shack? However eager to catch Sirius, he strikes me as someone who would at least wonder at the source of the oh-so-conveniently dropped Invisibility Cloak that he found and used.

That is another great point. When he walked in, he said to Harry straightaway that it had been very useful, which of course means he knew about it. Your memory amazes me, I had forgotten that.

:love:

:lol: Thanks!

That's not a promise that it will be nice, now.. but I'll give it a shot!:tu:

I don't know... I think protection was on his mind too, at least in part, when he ran out there. I think all year he'd been suspicious of Lupin and worried about the time he was spending with Harry, because what if he really was in league with Black and had let him into the castle at least once already? The rumor was that Black was after Harry, who Snape was supposed to be protecting.

So he saw Lupin had left, didn't take his potion... and where was he going anyway and why? So he followed him because of his suspicions and found the cloak along the way and came to the conclusion that Harry was possibly in danger too so he made a run for the Shack.

Also, if his suspicions were correct, I'm sure he thought catching Black would be fulfilling his duty (and a source of momentary satisfaction) in a few ways. He'd be catching the guy who betrayed his friends and allowed Lily to be killed and he'd also be catching the guy who is supposedly after her son too. Plus, he'd likely be exposing Lupin as helping the escaped convict and endangering Harry's life all year. On top of that, he'd also be fulfilling his duty to protect Harry by catching Sirius, as far as Snape knows.

To me this is one of those things that has a few layers going on in it in hindsight.

I know this is a total aside, but I always thought the reason a person became a ghost was not lack of bravery, but an
unwillingness to face death? Wasn't that what Nick told Harry? I have to argue that being afraid of death doesn't mean you're not brave. It just means you have a fear, like anyone else. Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die.

:lol:...it is a black hole in which one falls no matter how they try to argue it, that is what was so hilarious about it. We had a lot of fun with this particular inconsistency in the past. What you have just written is true (although Nick added that the brave move on). However you finished up: "Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die"

Of course he'd already died! :rotfl:. The choice is made after death: Ghost or move on. You are dead either way so the choice is earthly world as a ghost (which the wizards know all about and their existence isn't exactly all that wonderful) or move on to the afterworld. I wish I had copied that thread before it was taken down - man oh man you would have been rolling with laughter. But it is one of those issues that it is best to let lie in the end because it was pretty evident JKR didn't always have it in mind while writing.

That was his first step. He was sorry for his action because Lily was dragged into it. I think it was later that more began to hit him over the head like bricks, and later when he felt remorse for having ever joined the Death Eaters. Dumbledore says, and I agree with him, that handing over the prophecy was the largest source of remorse in Snape's life. But I just believe myself that he would later too have seriously regretted joining the dark side at all. It destroyed any idea of a normal life he might have been able to have.

Well Dumbledore was referring to prior to Snape coming to him as he said he believed it was why he returned. At that point, it was all about Lily and I agree.

As in, you think that she just meant him to infer that he wished he were dead to appease himself for what had happened to Lily? I agree with this, but I think that feeling that entirely cruddy about it made him think things through more, perhaps very slowly, over the following years. I don't think he felt full remorse for everything right at that moment, I just think it started him to thinking properly. I should have made that clearer, sorry! :) Not at that time, no. Again, and I'm sorry this hasn't been clearer for you! :(, I think he at that time felt only his own loss and wished he were dead because she was lost to him, permanently, but I do think it started him on a road to thinking through everything, and seriously rethinking his life.

Ah no worries. ;)

It was the first time he had ever felt remorse for something this huge, so that's why I say it was a huge step.

Oh, okay I understand now.

To say that his worst memory, forever, involved the childhood name calling of "mudblood" to her in a time of personal stress, I argue, strenuously, that he regretted everything from this point (the name calling) onward. If he didn't, then why was finding out she had died not his worst memory? he certainly took it exceptionally badly, so why woudl he not recall the pain he felt then? The memories were both interconnected, so why was the earlier one his worst one? Because he seriously regretted earlier choices he made too, not just her death and his role in it.

So what I feel you are saying is that at some point down the line, Snape thought back about everything and thought "if I just hadn't become a DE, if I had just rectified my thinking, then none of the bad things that I caused to happen in the past would have occurred". And further that Snape felt remorse and regret for each of those things - but as a whole in an all encompassing way "my past bad acts". In addition, he thought "if I just hadn't called Lily a mudblood, had changed and made up with her, not joined the DEs, then she would still be alive (and perhaps even with him) - and he felt remorse and regret for that also. Is that what you mean?

Then the only thing I can say here is that our interpretations differ. :)
I also don't think Harry would ever be expelled, he was safe at Hogwarts and that was where he needed to be, for as long as possible. Snape doubtless knew this, but still, yes, tried to make life difficult for him. I figure that this comes down to his bitterness at the trio attacking him. He lashed out. Again, very mean, especially when he had enough knowledge to be the bigger person, but Snape had issues with this kind of thing. He also retained his malignity to Sirius, despite the number of years that had passed between them.

Well you have explained why you feel Snape behaved the way he did, but you didn't address the point we were discussing. That was, how you feel a person in the midst of feeling great gratitude for being believed a benevolent goodsider by the minister, would suddenly turn to thinking about the bitterness of being attacked, his hatred for Sirius and wishing to get Harry expelled, to the point where he takes up the issue with the Minister.

I have seriously never considered whether Snape regretted joining the Death Eaters. There are many considerations so I would have to think about it.

Enjoy!!! :tu: :lol:

Still thinking. :lol:

You're wrong. :). The key moment Snape selects at this moment is one in which he can lay the blame on James for Lily's death, first and foremost.

And the incongruency of Lily being an autonomous being who also placed her trust in Black?

He never cared about James other than laying blame, but he knew, he always knew, even when they were in school, that James had a much more noble character than Snape himself had. Snape would have fully expected that James would have laid his trust in the right person, not the wrong person, as Snape himself did.

But to me it is still incongruent. Lily was not a puppet that went along with anyone and Snape knew this (after all, at 15 she ended their relationship quite autonomously.) Would not Snape feel that Lily would place her trust in the right person too? That she was noble in that way?

I am asking rhetorically because the bottom line is that whatever answers he made to those questions, Lily comes off looking either extremely weak or exactly like James. There are only so many answers; 1) she placed her trust in James (which according to Snape's train of thought, would have been the wrong person); 2) she placed her trust in Black (like James, the wrong person); 3) she was convinced to do either #1 or #2, feeling they were the wrong choice (she's weak) or 4) Snape didn't consider Lily's role at all.

So a "James centric" thought process on Snape's part is a null argument in as far as trying to blame James for Lily's death.

I would argue that this proved to Snape that he and James were each on a level with regard to Lily. Each put their trust in the wrong person in attempting to bring her closer to to keep her safe or win her over, whatever reason you choose. And each, therefore, was deserving of her. Neither one of them evaded this fatal flaw. It disgusted Snape that James emerged the victor, when James was also later unable to save her.

Again, this would be unreasonable and incongruent thinking. Apart from leaving Lily out, which results in the fallacy above, here, the situation grows worse for Snape. He didn't just place is trust in the wrong person (Voldemort), but in the right person too (Dumbledore) and that also failed. So Snape could even pat himself on the back if he liked and say that he'd added the superior element of including a second safety net by trusting the right person in addition to the wrong one (to save Lily). But the fact that it still failed should have taught him a big lesson about this type of reasoning.

Nobody could save her, not Snape, not James, not Dumbledore, not Voldemort, and most importantly, not Lily herself. In other words, no one was working harder to save Lily and Harry than James; and no one was working harder to save James and Harry than Lily (both placing Harry's safety paramount - "go get Harry and run, I'll hold him off" and Lily actually doing so instead of demanding to face down Voldemort at the door with her husband), Just as Snape felt he was doing all in his power to try to save only Lily - and the only successful people were James and Lily because at least 1/2 of their goal was met: Harry survived. Snape failed altogether, despite his extra safety net for Lily. But Snape ignored all of these factors if following the reasoning you propose, and focused his mind on James (the arrogant), who was "level with Snape because they'd both trusted the wrong person". But as I pointed out, Snape had the advantage, trusting two people (one good), so they were not level, Snape could imagine himself superior.

Now your conclusion I don't follow at all. "each was deserving of her but could not evade this flaw - and it disgusted Snape that James emerged the victor, when James was also later unable to save her." That is completely irrational thinking if Snape thought it. What would be the "non-disgusting" outcome? They share her since they both deserved her? They both should have lost her because James was no better? And if Snape was thinking either of those things, wouldn't you agree that he was nuts? Deserving Lily had nothing to do with being able to preserve her life when hunted by Voldemort. First the goal of James and Lily was superior as it included saving one another but primarily their son. Snape's goal was to save Lily. Second, deserving Lily happened before any of this went down at all, from the moment when Snape called Lily a mudblood and thereafter never got himself together, but remained on the dark path (which I feel Snape acknowledged). Whereas James got himself together and thus 'deserved her' (a term I use from your version of Snape's POV, but I would not use myself.)

So looking at those two points (first and second), Snape thinking along the lines you indicated would be irrational and bizarre to me. I don't discount the possibility, but it is a completely unreasonable way to think, imo, based on what I have written.

Frankly, I don't think Snape was thinking that way. I honestly feel he wished to throw blame around at as many individuals as he could. He'd blamed Dumbledore, Voldemort, Sirius and now he was blaming James. He never blamed Lily - who had actually made the decision to marry, have a child, defy Voldemort thrice, dump Snape as a friend, trust Sirius/Peter, and love her husband and child so much she'd give her life for both. But Snape wasn't interested in being fair, imo, he was simply lashing out, casting blame to conceal the fact that he understood that he, together [with Black (Peter) and Voldemort] was culpable for both of the Potter's deaths, imo. Specifically for Lily's death which I think filled him with guilt, regret and remorse and his behavior was simply a means of making himself feel better, imo.

I think this reasoning is also one reason why he continues to attack James' character, long after his death, even aside from the fact that he hated him so.

In my opinion this was mostly jealousy (because James won Lily's love) and to a lesser degree, animus (but still quite a bit). Snape didn't do all of that complicated thinking about the terms and means of Lily's death when he belittled James and attacked his character, imo. I believe he was simply lashing out in frustration at his loss both in terms of love and life. And his secondary motivation was that he had a 'whipping post' in Harry, who would be hurt by this behavior when Snape belittled his father before him - and belittled Harry himself simultaneously - he always did both in each instance of a scene. As JKR said, Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's preference for another man; so while that is a unfair way to think, a part of Snape doing this was to attack Harry as well as his father via transference, imo.

Furthermore, though that comment is a very harsh one (Snape's comment, I mean :)), he said it because Harry yelled at him first-"Just because they made a fool of you at school you won't even listen-". he struck a nerve. They did not make a fool of Snape in school,

Actually I would disagree; for example Snape would have seen SWM as him being made a fool of in front of a crowd - humiliated by his grey underpants showing and soap in his mouth. I am looking from Snape's POV, not the readers. And James was humiliated by Snape when he received the behind the back cut from the Slytherin; but I don't think Snape would understand that James could feel humiliation because he would assume he was too arrogant to feel it. However, that is the bottom line basis for James retaliating, Snape getting one over on him in front of Lily while he was in the midst of trying to play at Don Juan, was just as humiliating from his POV (the cut itself he seemed to ignore, despite it splattering blood.), imo.

So I think Harry's comment struck a nerve with Snape because it was true, he had felt that he'd been made a fool of; and he never could see that his own strikes caused any type of humiliation or that his efforts made a fool of his foes (they were too arrogant) - so that angered him, imo. That is how I interpreted his response to that comment in this scene.

Harry later admits this himself...

IMO, Harry understood many things later on that he did not comment upon immediately after the fact. Proof including he believed Snape had hated his mother because he'd called her a Mudblood, but we didn't learn that until a full book later. And at the end of OOTP, he defended his father against Snape to Dumbledore, so his thoughts were not 'all with Snape' in the end even though right after viewing it may have come across that way. This is very important to me when it comes to Snape's viewpoint.

I think Snape never even considered that Harry might have considered his point of view (which Harry definitely had). And that fueled his dislike for Harry, imo. He also likely felt Harry thought his father's actions were totally righteous - further fueling his dislike. The truth is, Harry saw the good and bad in everyone there and although he said "his mother was all right" in how she behaved, upon consideration, I would think he'd even come to understand that she too had responded vindictively toward Snape and James in the aftermath of Snape humiliating her - but that type of higher level thinking comes with maturity - two wrongs really don't make a right. And just as Snape should not have turned on his defender (Lily) for perceived wrongs, Lily should not have turned on her defender (James) for perceived wrongs. In both cases, the defense had nothing to do with the wrong - these things Harry would eventually see with age. But Snape himself wouldn't have see it (as he was so sorry for what he'd said to Lily) and would not have likely considered Harry's thoughts toward his mother. So that did not help or harm is feelings toward Harry. But I think overall, his impression of Harry worsened after that point based on his incorrect assumptions (which he often did in relation to Harry, imo).

So it is an interesting idea how Snape's thoughts about Harry were affected by Harry seeing that scene, in addition to all of the other things we speak about concerning the scene.

I wonder what would have happened had they not knocked him out? Just a thought, nothing really to do with this. As soon as he saw Pettigrew, he would have wanted to listen, he would have wanted to know the truth about why Lily died. He too would have wanted revenge, against the right person.

He would not have seen Peter. Sirius had no wand to make him appear. Based on what Snape said, Sirius and Lupin would have been kissed unless the trio prevented it, imo.

He made an enjoyable pastime out of mocking James to rile Harry. He didn't make an enjoyable pastime out of saying harsh words as you quoted above.

I would have to respectfully disagree. The harsh words in POA were one occassion; but prior to that, he told his side of the werewolf incident, knowing that he was withholding facts and that he was unsure of others; he called James an attempted murderer who got cold feet; in HBP a coward and filthy - all of these fairly harsh for the son of the man to hear. In the first scene I indicated, he was sneering, jeering and smirking, so he was clearly enjoying himself, imo. In the other scenes he was angry, but to me, it was enjoyment in the form of blowing off steam. Equally harsh were his majority of comments, repeated before Harry ad naseum, imo. This is because of the effect he was having on the child, which was very harsh and hurtful, imo. So to me it was all an enjoyable pastime of saying harsh words to Harry about himself and his father. I do understand where you are coming from, "rule breaking" is not as harsh in general terms as "filthy" - but you have to remember who he was saying it to and how they responded to those words (Harry) - which is distinct from our reading of it. He wasn't our father nor was Snape speaking about us in saying those things. :lol:.

I think the fact that he only ever felt compassion for one person makes it heroic. I mean, would you bother, honestly, if you only felt compassion for one person? Pft. I wouldn't. And if I so wouldn't, then why would he? I'm certainly not as nasty as he was seen to be. I have stood by ever other thing you've said regarding his bad behaviour. It can't be discounted. But nor can I discount the fact that such a tiny piece of good conquered the rest of him. But we are, it seems, destined to disagree. And such a pity, you came so highly recommended. *sigh*. ;)

I don't know what you mean by "conquered the rest of him". I never saw anything of the sort happening in canon that I recall. The little piece of good did its thing and the 'rest of him' continued to its his thing too. There was no conquering of his negative aspects, imo. And no, I do not see feeling compassion for one person or a couple "heroic". That is why I can't buy the argument. As I explained, Snape's loyalty to his emotions for Lily (and I have described what I feel those emotions to be) is absolutely nothing to brag home to mama about in my judgment. That it allowed for him to act bravely I see as more convincing an argument, but it doesn't serve because it is negated by it also causing him to act in so cowardly and negative a manner at times, in my view.

Fair enough, I do take this on board. But I can't help but say that with hindsight, this was not a good plan. Also, in knowing later that his deal with Snape was broken as soon as Lily died, Dumbledore did the wrong thing in manipulating him. I'm not sure how you justify this behaviour, when you are unwilling to justify Snape's. No offence, obviously :). I just don't see where you get the following idea from: Would that be a suggestion of "for the greater good"? Because much though I see where you're going, I think it makes you appear to judge based on double standards. It wasn't alright for Snape to manipulate or entice, but Dumbledore could do it to Snape because Snape was rude and arrogant? I don't follow this line of thinking. Of course, it might be me misreading what you have written, in which case, oops. He deserved to be manipulated because he made a choice that didn't include two people he didn't care about? I'm just not sure that this can justify Dumbledore. Explain me! :lol:

Oh don't get me wrong. Manipulative behavior is not good and best avoided at all times. But that doesn't mean that occassionally it won't work out well without harming someone - and in this case, actually helping Snape. I refer only to Dumbledore's manipulation in getting Snape to work for him on the good side - facilitating in making the step from evil toward the good side. But in the main, all the other manipulation had harmful side effects and yeah, I totally agree it was terrible. So "deserving" wasn't a good word; I should have said that in that particular instance, it served to help Snape rather than to harm him, so it was good for him.

I consider this a total inconsistency, and always have done. You're entirely correct, of course. Why did he not care up to this point? She was already in the Order, so he might have crossed paths with her eventually anyway, and been called upon to kill her. It's rather unbelievable in this sense, that he wasn't otherwise concerned.

Well JKR isn't perfect. ;)

I'm not saying he wished to do good deeds and keep them secret, it's more that he did do the good deeds and he did keep them secret. Where do you suppose his motivation lay? Surely his motivation lay entirely in fulfilling the promise he made in order to try to make up her sacrifice? Or am I missing something?

I said Snape wasn't behaving in a modest and humble fashion by wanting to keep his reasons for working on the good side secret. You seem to agree - that he didn't 'wish' to do it for reasons of modesty or for any other reason. But rather you said that he just "did it" - but you didn't say why. Instead you explained why he fulfilled the promise: in order to try to honor Lily's sacrifice. But that is not "why" he wanted it kept a secret.

Taking it as a literary meander purely to ensure things went according to plan, this is quite an inconsistency too. I don't think we'll be able to further engage with it other than to say that Snape was mean to the students, but that equally, nothing was ever said back to him by Dumbledore. In a literary way, it creates a bit of a hole with relation to both Snape and Dumbledore, but there's little we can do about that. Does look bad for Dumbledore though, poor guy. He's really taking a blasting over the last year! :lol:

Yup, but again, JKR isn't perfect. :lol:. Dumbledore's character was built up nearly to saint hood, I think so that he could play the fall guy and still come out okay. But that is just conjecture.

No, it wasn't a lie. It was the truth. He was being perfectly honest that it had all been for her. But he also suggests that he's tired and has had enough of watching people die. As you say yourself, He probably would have stayed out of the war altogether were it not for his job. That means that in some way, he must have regretted joining the death eaters. Otherwise, I doubt we would both agree that unless he had taken on his post as spy, he would have stayed out of the war altogether. It was all for Lily, but that's not to say he wasn't sorry for other things too.

Here is my biggest problem with this. Snape said that he watches people die, only if he cannot save them. That statement has a judgment call built into it "only if I cannot save them" - meaning he has to judge who he can and cannot save in any given situation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Snape has fairly poor judgment, so that takes the 'bite' out of that statement for me. If it were a stage play, after making that statement, he would turn to the audience with a smirk: (wink wink), but I watch myself bully children except those I judge I can save by inhibiting my behavior. :lol:. I'm just adding levity here, but my point is, he was shown to be unfair in his treatment of the kids, imo, 3/4 of the school he judged to be 'unsavable' from his behavior and the other 1/4 (Slytherins) he judged that he could save from it. So when it comes to a person who thinks like Snape, the statement that he only watches those die who he can't save, has less meaning than it would coming from someone who I felt had good judgment.

This again may simply come down to a writing issue...because as I said, I think JKR was trying to make this a redemptive type statement. But when I think it through, it doesn't work for me. But I respect the fact that it works for you. :)

There's protection, and there's protection. Protecting Harry from a flobberworm attack is not in Snape's list of things to protect him from. He was hired expressly to guard Harry from Lord Voldemort, because that was where the danger lay, and which he did, in my opinion, to the best of his ability over a period of six and a half years.

I would even grant this to be a true statement, but we would likely disagree on what "the best of his ability" was I think. :lol:.

Wicked, how long did you spend on that post? It's epic! :lol:

Here is my biggest problem with this. Snape said that he watches people die, only if he cannot save them. That statement has a judgment call built into it "only if I cannot save them" - meaning he has to judge who he can and cannot save in any given situation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Snape has fairly poor judgment, so that takes the 'bite' out of that statement for me. If it were a stage play, after making that statement, he would turn to the audience with a smirk: (wink wink), but I watch myself bully children except those I judge I can save by inhibiting my behavior. :lol:. I'm just adding levity here, but my point is, he was shown to be unfair in his treatment of the kids, imo, 3/4 of the school he judged to be 'unsavable' from his behavior and the other 1/4 (Slytherins) he judged that he could save from it. So when it comes to a person who thinks like Snape, the statement that he only watches those die who he can save, has less meaning than it would coming from someone who I felt had good judgment.

This again may simply come down to a writing issue...because as I said, I think JKR was trying to make this a redemptive type statement. But when I think it through, it doesn't work for me. But I respect the fact that it works for you. :)

I think you take things too far in saying that his behavior towards the students has any affect at all upon his 'judgement'. Since when did 'being nice' to someone mean you were trying to save them? If anything, Severus would have to come down hard on the Slytherins and the general blood prejeduces in order to 'save them' from the possibility of acting on those prejeduces and joining Voldemort.

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva! It seems to me that this is normal for Hogwarts-- whether it is a good or fair system doesn't matter (I disagree with the Sorting as well) but it seems to be the way things work. (Or, looking at it another way, it is the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry at work, with Severus and Minerva both trying to help their own side. We really don't see much from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, so I don't have too much to go on)

Besides, there is a fair difference between being more likely to give someone a detention, take away/add House points, or just generally pick on someone and to actually decide if it was feasable to save their life. The two just don't seem related in the way you are trying to relate them. Severus survived years as a Double Agent and spy for Voldemort, requiring quite a lot of decition making on his part. From that fact, I would say Severus had a fantastic sense of judgemet.

Though I can see it from that point of view, and though I love Snape as much as you do (:drool: :)), I just think he wanted to catch Sirius Black. He had already expressed concern about Lupin helping Black into the castle, and he was overtaken with feelings of vengeance. He legged it there so that he could get Black, purely out of vengeance for Lily. A secondary theme might have been protection, but I don't think it was primary in his head at all. He does express interest in getting Harry, Ron and Hermione out, proving that once again, his promise did in fact take precedence when he found Harry there. I also figure that this was another reason why he yelled at Harry. The boy was making things difficult for him, at the end of the day. So I'll go 50/50, but I don't think he knew Harry was there needing protection, so I figure that mostly he just wanted vengeance.



You've provided me the answer I was so desperately looking for! :tu: Thank you for working through that. I couldn't get it to make sense in my head! it does reconcile a lot, and it makes perfect sense that this "bad influence" (wickedwickedboy, are you listening here?! :)), aided him in his decision to join the Death Eaters.

zgirnius, I owe you one. ;) I'll make your cake next year, okay?! :D
Yep! :D

Actually I suggested this to Zara about a year ago, and she agreed with me then, which I took to mean she had been thinking the same thing. However, since then, I have thought about it and it no longer makes sense to me. I do still think that Snape tried to convince himself that he hated Lily. However, it makes no sense that when he knew she was first targeted as an Order member together with the fact that the group was knocking the Order members off left and right quite frequently (and Snape had no control over who his bretheren might kill on any given day), that he would not have felt a similar urgency at that point.

When I initially changed my mind, I actually spoke about it again and it was suggested that the "specific targeting" by Voldemort would have brought the matter home to Snape and made it urgent in his mind. But I cannot buy that because she was in even more danger targeted by 100's of DEs than she was by just Voldemort while in hiding from him (losing the 100 DEs chasing her and replaced by one big one was bad, but now she had the added protection of Dumbledore who Snape knew was aware of the prophecy and would move to protect those it might implicate). Still, when she fell into this double limited group, Snape did not act. It was only when Voldemort made up his mind that Snape suddenly thinks, 'gee, Lily mght die'. Well that is a little far fetched considering the subsequent emotion that he presumably had for her, imo.

So I have relegated it to a plot hole. But as always, I respect the view of those who are happy with the answers they have found. :)

Wicked, how long did you spend on that post? It's epic! :lol:

Actually I spend far more time in reading and deliberating prior to writing. The writing takes literally minutes. :lol:. This is an excellent exercise for me and I also feel it allows me an opportunity to carefully consider what a person is trying to say prior to answering.

I think you take things too far in saying that his behavior towards the students has any affect at all upon his 'judgement'. Since when did 'being nice' to someone mean you were trying to save them? If anything, Severus would have to come down hard on the Slytherins and the general blood prejeduces in order to 'save them' from the possibility of acting on those prejeduces and joining Voldemort.

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva! It seems to me that this is normal for Hogwarts-- whether it is a good or fair system doesn't matter (I disagree with the Sorting as well) but it seems to be the way things work. (Or, looking at it another way, it is the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry at work, with Severus and Minerva both trying to help their own side. We really don't see much from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, so I don't have too much to go on)

Besides, there is a fair difference between being more likely to give someone a detention, take away/add House points, or just generally pick on someone and to actually decide if it was feasable to save their life. The two just don't seem related in the way you are trying to relate them. Severus survived years as a Double Agent and spy for Voldemort, requiring quite a lot of decition making on his part. From that fact, I would say Severus had a fantastic sense of judgemet.

I respect your view. I didn't mean to infer that I based my assessment of Snape's ability to judge on solely that issue. It was merely an example. But I do feel that issue provides a multitude of examples of Snape making poor judgments with respect to his treatment, behavior and response to the students. An example would be when Snape caught Harry looking in his pensieve - and I do see that as delinquent and improper behavior on Harry's part, imo. He had to made a judgment, a choice as to whether he should taunt Harry about his father then shove him with all of his might to the floor and throw a jar of cockroaches at his head OR give him a strict setting down on the immorality of invading someone else's privacy and the importance of overcoming childish curiosity - together with an appropriate detention. In this case, I feel Snape used poor judgment in deciding to do the former over the latter. In as far as other issues, there are many including his relationships with adults, his decisions in the midst of his duties for Dumbledore and his personal decisions with respect to his personal growth and maturity. So I was not confining my judgement to his instances of unfairness with the students. :)

I voted a kitty because I know Snape would've just thought it were the most adorable thing!

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Yes, I do think at the time Snape should have been sorted into Slytherin.

No, I don't think he would've made the same choces if he had been sorted elesewhere. His friends opinions, wouldn't have effected him (if he did have the same friends), and Voldemort would've been much more hesitant to allow him to become a Death Eater.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
For one, he gave up his life, killed someone and was a double spy, mostly all for a girl he loved, that didn't love him back and was dead.

He's a hero in many ways, though he hated Harry he still saved his life a number of times, though he hated Sirius he still attempted to save his life, and he gave his life for someone he loved.

I respect your view. I didn't mean to infer that I based my assessment of Snape's ability to judge on solely that issue. It was merely an example. But I do feel that issue provides a multitude of examples of Snape making poor judgments with respect to his treatment, behavior and response to the students. An example would be when Snape caught Harry looking in his pensieve - and I do see that as delinquent and improper behavior on Harry's part, imo. He had to made a judgment, a choice as to whether he should taunt Harry about his father then shove him with all of his might to the floor and throw a jar of cockroaches at his head OR give him a strict setting down on the immorality of invading someone else's privacy and the importance of overcoming childish curiosity - together with an appropriate detention. In this case, I feel Snape used poor judgment in deciding to do the former over the latter. In as far as other issues, there are many including his relationships with adults, his decisions in the midst of his duties for Dumbledore and his personal decisions with respect to his personal growth and maturity. So I was not confining my judgement to his instances of unfairness with the students.

Slight grammar nitpick. In your second sentence it should be 'imply' not 'infer'. The speaker implies, the listener infers. ;)

Anyway, back to the subject at hand-- I still don't think you can take his reaction to Harry invading his privacy and his actions at Hogwarts and then go on to say that his judgement is lacking. Hogwarts is an entirly different location than in the middle of a Death Eater circle, imho, and therefore requires a different sort of mindset. I still hold that his ability to make perfectly good judgement calls when it came to being a spy and Double Agent for the Order ups his credibility more than any of his Hogwarts based actions demolishes it.

"Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die"

Of course he'd already died! :rotfl:. The choice is made after death: Ghost or move on. You are dead either way so the choice is earthly world as a ghost (which the wizards know all about and their existence isn't exactly all that wonderful) or move on to the afterworld.

Touché!! I take it you won that argument! :lol: Would have loved to read it to be honest, it sounds like one of those black hole type things alright..

Well Dumbledore was referring to prior to Snape coming to him as he said he believed it was why he returned. At that point, it was all about Lily and I agree.

:tu: Yup.

So what I feel you are saying is that at some point down the line, Snape thought back about everything and thought "if I just hadn't become a DE, if I had just rectified my thinking, then none of the bad things that I caused to happen in the past would have occurred".

Yes, thus far, that's roughly it. ;) I don't think it's true to say that no-one of the things would have happened, undoubtedly most of them would anyway. But I do think he thought back and considered that without joining the Death Eaters, he would never be placed in such a horrible position, and he would never have felt such guilt about Lily's death. To this end, he would have felt very sad, but he wouldn't have had any part to play in her death at all.

And further that Snape felt remorse and regret for each of those things - but as a whole in an all encompassing way "my past bad acts". In addition, he thought "if I just hadn't called Lily a mudblood, had changed and made up with her, not joined the DEs, then she would still be alive (and perhaps even with him) - and he felt remorse and regret for that also. Is that what you mean?

No, not really. :). He felt regret for the pain he caused others as a Death Eater, Lily included, and I say that because he finally felt the bitter taste of that kind of pain, when Lily died. She probably still would be dead. Voldemort would have gone after both the Potters and Longbottoms eventually anyway. Of course, the fact that the prophecy would never have been shown to him might have contradicted him, but if he had not been thwarted by Harry Potter, then he would only have continued growing more and more powerful, and then he might have killed the Potters anyway. Get me?

Well you have explained why you feel Snape behaved the way he did, but you didn't address the point we were discussing. That was, how you feel a person in the midst of feeling great gratitude for being believed a benevolent goodsider by the minister, would suddenly turn to thinking about the bitterness of being attacked, his hatred for Sirius and wishing to get Harry expelled, to the point where he takes up the issue with the Minister.

I don't think he felt gratitude at all. I think he felt self righteous and strong, but as they were talking about how he was knocked out, his thoughts sprung to Harry and the others hitting him. He got bitter. He felt vengeful. He lashed out.

Still thinking. :lol:

You take your time with that. I assume I should get to thinking too... ;)


And the incongruency of Lily being an autonomous being who also placed her trust in Black?

I don't really think it was incongruent. Dumbledore tells us that they put their choice in the wrong person. I don't know how they came to that decision, other than that Sirius himself told them that giving the secret to Peter would be best, to lead Voldemort off the trail. They both made this mistake. Snape just blamed James for it, which isn't incongruous given his feelings toward James. Note, that he never said it again, once he found out the truth that the two of them, when Sirius suggested it, put their faith in Pettigrew. He couldn't deny the truth at that point. he just preferred not to think of her having anything to do with it.

I am asking rhetorically because the bottom line is that whatever answers he made to those questions, Lily comes off looking either extremely weak or exactly like James. There are only so many answers; 1) she placed her trust in James (which according to Snape's train of thought, would have been the wrong person); 2) she placed her trust in Black (like James, the wrong person); 3) she was convinced to do either #1 or #2, feeling they were the wrong choice (she's weak) or 4) Snape didn't consider Lily's role at all.

I think he preferred not to think of her flawed part in the decision. He was obsessed only with protecting her, I don't think he took into account that she was quite independent and that the choice to make Peter Secret Keeper was hers too.

So a "James centric" thought process on Snape's part is a null argument in as far as trying to blame James for Lily's death.

I don't see how. Just because he didn't consider her, doesn't mean he couldn't try to pass some of the blame off on James. I don't think he was being logical at all about this. He tried to blame everybody, and frequently probably found that he couldn't. James was not to blame. Eventually, this was what his decision had to be.

I think Snape got more and more desperate and he toyed with blaming loads of people. In that moment, he seemed to blame James. But he couldn't justify it and he never said it again.

But Snape ignored all of these factors if following the reasoning you propose, and focused his mind on James (the arrogant), who was "level with Snape because they'd both trusted the wrong person". But as I pointed out, Snape had the advantage, trusting two people (one good), so they were not level, Snape could imagine himself superior.

Yes, he ignored it to try to make himself feel better. But I'm not sure that Snape ever truly trusted Voldemort. If he did truly trust Voldemort, why would he go to Dumbledore? I don't think he ever saw it as him having an advantage in going to Dumbledore. It meant that he would be in Dumbledore's pocket, he must have known that. I just think he was battling to blame someone else, someone as well as himself, anything, to believe that he would not be the only one who loved her and left her down.

So looking at those two points (first and second), Snape thinking along the lines you indicated would be irrational and bizarre to me. I don't discount the possibility, but it is a completely unreasonable way to think, imo, based on what I have written.

It was irrational thinking, of course it was. He did indeed want to blame as many people as possible. But my explanation was referring to why he appeared to mock and make fun of James, long after his death.

Let me explain a little more what I meant with what I wrote. I agree with pretty much everything you've written here, so I think you misunderstood me. When I said

The key moment Snape selects at this moment is one in which he can lay the blame on James for Lily's death, first and foremost.

it was in reference to the fact that he never cared about James and why or how James died at all. It was all about Lily. He did not ever care about laying the blame on James for James death. With me so far? He wouldn't have cared if James fell off the back of a house elf into a teapot and died that way. All he cared about was Lily. To that end, he went insane, trying, trying, always trying, to find someone else to blame. In this moment, in the Shrieking Shack, he blamed James. He was incorrect, and he never mentioned it again, especially on learning the whole truth.

So really, we do agree on the majority of this, but it digressed into something quite frivolous that didn't answer many questions. It does show us though, that Snape didn't always think things through as well as he might have. I just think this was a particularly nasty moment from him.

Frankly, I don't think Snape was thinking that way. I honestly feel he wished to throw blame around at as many individuals as he could. He'd blamed Dumbledore, Voldemort, Sirius and now he was blaming James. He never blamed Lily - who had actually made the decision to marry, have a child, defy Voldemort thrice, dump Snape as a friend, trust Sirius/Peter, and love her husband and child so much she'd give her life for both. But Snape wasn't interested in being fair, imo, he was simply lashing out, casting blame to conceal the fact that he understood that he, together [with Black (Peter) and Voldemort] was culpable for both of the Potter's deaths, imo. Specifically for Lily's death which I think filled him with guilt, regret and remorse and his behavior was simply a means of making himself feel better, imo.

We agree on all of this. I'm not sure how we came to believe that we wouldn't. I think it might be that I went to a different point without paragraphing.

In my opinion this was mostly jealousy (because James won Lily's love) and to a lesser degree, animus (but still quite a bit). Snape didn't do all of that complicated thinking about the terms and means of Lily's death when he belittled James and attacked his character, imo. I believe he was simply lashing out in frustration at his loss both in terms of love and life. And his secondary motivation was that he had a 'whipping post' in Harry, who would be hurt by this behavior when Snape belittled his father before him - and belittled Harry himself simultaneously - he always did both in each instance of a scene. As JKR said, Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's preference for another man; so while that is a unfair way to think, a part of Snape doing this was to attack Harry as well as his father via transference, imo.

Some jealousy, bit of animosity, yes. But lots of pain. Lots of remorse. I think Snape, for many years, tried to reconcile in his head why Lily chose James over him. And I think he came up short in many areas, never understanding that it was simply because she fell in love with James. After all they were both talented. They were both powerful, popular in specific circles, well capable. So his relentless jealousy that James had got the girl stuck with him. He abused James' character as often as he could, and yes, transferred it to Harry. Nor was he entirely wrong all the time. As stated above, James too was arrogant and difficult. He was vain, he did strut around the school as though he owned it, we know these things. I don't think Snape was able to make this all work in his head. He couldn't work out why James was any better, and he dearly hated him for that. Hence, the abuse.

(This was the point I deviated into with the "winning Lily" section. Does it make more sense now? ;))

Actually I would disagree; for example Snape would have seen SWM as him being made a fool of in front of a crowd - humiliated by his grey underpants showing and soap in his mouth. I am looking from Snape's POV, not the readers. And James was humiliated by Snape when he received the behind the back cut from the Slytherin; but I don't think Snape would understand that James could feel humiliation because he would assume he was too arrogant to feel it. However, that is the bottom line basis for James retaliating, Snape getting one over on him in front of Lily was just as humiliating from his POV (the cut itself he seemed to ignore, despite it splattering blood.), imo.

Now this is just unfair :D. You didn't use my whole quote! :D I don't just think he was made a fool of, I think he was bullied. Nor do I believe for one second that James was humiliated by him, because I think that that was notihng by comparison with what he had done to Snape. Which would you rather be? Bleeding a little or lying on the street with your pants down spitting up soap that someone else your age had forced down your throat? I just think, in context, Snape's humiliation was much larger.

IMO, Harry understood many things later on that he did not comment upon immediately after the fact. Proof including he believed Snape had hated his mother because he'd called her a Mudblood, but we didn't learn that until a full book later. And at the end of OOTP, he defended his father against Snape to Dumbledore, so his thoughts were not 'all with Snape' in the end even though right after viewing it may have come across that way. This is very important to me when it comes to Snape's viewpoint.

No, I agree with you. He wasn't entirely pro Snape by the end. But I wonder, did the boy wonder also feel that relentless bitterness that prevented him from sympathising with Snape for too long :)? Snape was very mean about the Pensieve moment, very crude and downright nasty. I think Harry retained the bitterness about this treatment. Though it's true that most of what he says is correct, I think he did exactly what Snape was good at. He tried, so very hard, to justify the actions of he people he preferred, hie mother and father. He did eventually think it through properly, certainly with more maturity than Snape had, but it didn't stop him from being more vindictive either. But this rather has nothing to do with this debate! :D

I think Snape never even considered that Harry might have considered his point of view (which Harry definitely had). And that fueled his dislike for Harry, imo. He also likely felt Harry thought his father's actions were totally righteous - further fueling his dislike.

I do agree with this.

He would not have seen Peter. Sirius had no wand to make him appear. Based on what Snape said, Sirius and Lupin would have been kissed unless the trio prevented it, imo.

Thanks for thinking that through for me! Now I don't have to! :D

I would have to respectfully disagree. The harsh words in POA were one occassion; but prior to that, he told his side of the werewolf incident, knowing that he was withholding facts and that he was unsure of others; he called James an attempted murderer who got cold feet; in HBP a coward and filthy - all of these fairly harsh for the son of the man to hear. In the first scene I indicated, he was sneering, jeering and smirking, so he was clearly enjoying himself, imo. In the other scenes he was angry, but to me, it was enjoyment in the form of blowing off steam. Equally harsh were his majority of comments, repeated before Harry ad naseum, imo. This is because of the effect he was having on the child, which was very harsh and hurtful, imo. So to me it was all an enjoyable pastime of saying harsh words to Harry about himself and his father. I do understand where you are coming from, "rule breaking" is not as harsh in general terms as "filthy" - but you have to remember who he was saying it to and how they responded to those words (Harry) - which is distinct from our reading of it. He wasn't our father nor was Snape speaking about us in saying those things. :lol:.

Sure, he liked saying harsh things to rile Harry, I agree.
What I meant by what I said was the "harsh words" quoted regarding his father's death by arrogance.
This is something Snape did not enjoy. I say this because he did not do it again, and it seemed to bother him to huge extremes.

I don't know what you mean by "conquered the rest of him". I never saw anything of the sort happening in canon that I recall. The little piece of good did its thing and the 'rest of him' continued to its his thing too. There was no conquering of his negative aspects, imo. And no, I do not see feeling compassion for one person or a couple "heroic". That is why I can't buy the argument. As I explained, Snape's loyalty to his emotions for Lily (and I have described what I feel those emotions to be) is absolutely nothing to brag home to mama about in my judgment. That it allowed for him to act bravely I see as more convincing an argument, but it doesn't serve because it is negated by it also causing him to act in so cowardly and negative a manner at times, in my view.

He continued his negative aspects, yes. But on a basis so tiny that they were negligible in the overall, by comparison with what that one sliver of light did for him. Nor do I believe that his love can be translated as such. I don't think he saw it in this way, regardless of how you do :). I think he saw only his love for her, and that's all I see too. It's all pretty much every canonical character sees in his relationship with her. What you list does not seem to come into their minds at all, so perhaps JK Rowling did not think that it would be considered. And regardless, it did allow him to act bravely. I don't think he was a coward later in life, his scream at the end of Half Blood Prince was perfectly justified, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh don't get me wrong. Manipulative behavior is not good and best avoided at all times. But that doesn't mean that occassionally it won't work out well without harming someone - and in this case, actually helping Snape. I refer only to Dumbledore's manipulation in getting Snape to work for him on the good side - facilitating in making the step from evil toward the good side. But in the main, all the other manipulation had harmful side effects and yeah, I totally agree it was terrible. So "deserving" wasn't a good word; I should have said that in that particular instance, it served to help Snape rather than to harm him, so it was good for him.

That's fair enough. :D

Well JKR isn't perfect. ;)

On this I've already changed my mind, which you already addressed, and which I shall further address later. :D

I said Snape wasn't modestly in wanting to keep his reasons for working on the good side secret. You seem to agree - that he didn't 'wish' to do it for reasons of modesty or any reason. But rather you said that he just "did it" - but you didn't say why. Instead you explained why he fulfilled the promise: in order to try to honor Lily's sacrifice. But that is not "why" he wanted it kept a secret.

He wanted to keep it a secret so that nobody would know. Why would he want everybody to know? It would vindicate him, yes. But he would be ashamed to admit that despite loving a Muggle-born witch, he joined the ranks of the Death Eaters. He didn't want Harry Potter to know especially, and I think at this stage, that this was because he did not want pity from a replica of James Potter. Especially since Snape would never have pitied him.

Yup, but again, JKR isn't perfect. :lol:. Dumbledore's character was built up nearly to saint hood, I think so that he could play the fall guy and still come out okay. But that is just conjecture.

Good conjecture though. :tu:

Here is my biggest problem with this. Snape said that he watches people die, only if he cannot save them. That statement has a judgment call built into it "only if I cannot save them" - meaning he has to judge who he can and cannot save in any given situation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Snape has fairly poor judgment, so that takes the 'bite' out of that statement for me....So when it comes to a person who thinks like Snape, the statement that he only watches those die who he can save, has less meaning than it would coming from someone who I felt had good judgment.

Though I agree that judgment and Snape are funny bedfellows, I think his past actions become irrelevant when he talks of seeing life lost only when he cannot save it, cos that's really deep stuff. I don't think it can be equated with favouritism, with what he thought of Harry Potter, with what he thought of James Potter, with any of that. His judgment was careful enough that he planned and plotted his way through his year as Headmaster without having Harry die and without losing any students to death. He made a good plan to prevent the death of Harry right at the beginning. He was no fool, and I think his judgment is seen to work perfectly in accordance to what it should have.

This again may simply come down to a writing issue...because as I said, I think JKR was trying to make this a redemptive type statement. But when I think it through, it doesn't work for me. But I respect the fact that it works for you. :)

I'm fairly easily pleased, you see ;)!

I would even grant this to be a true statement, but we would likely disagree on what "the best of his ability" was I think. :lol:.

Probably! But agreeing is agreeing! :D

I think you take things too far in saying that his behavior towards the students has any affect at all upon his 'judgement'. Since when did 'being nice' to someone mean you were trying to save them? If anything, Severus would have to come down hard on the Slytherins and the general blood prejeduces in order to 'save them' from the possibility of acting on those prejeduces and joining Voldemort.

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva! It seems to me that this is normal for Hogwarts-- whether it is a good or fair system doesn't matter (I disagree with the Sorting as well) but it seems to be the way things work. (Or, looking at it another way, it is the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry at work, with Severus and Minerva both trying to help their own side. We really don't see much from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, so I don't have too much to go on)

Besides, there is a fair difference between being more likely to give someone a detention, take away/add House points, or just generally pick on someone and to actually decide if it was feasable to save their life. The two just don't seem related in the way you are trying to relate them. Severus survived years as a Double Agent and spy for Voldemort, requiring quite a lot of decition making on his part. From that fact, I would say Severus had a fantastic sense of judgemet.

I agree with all of this, by the way!! :D But I did talk about it earlier on.

I do still think that Snape tried to convince himself that he hated Lily.

I don't! :) I think he tried to move on, but he never tried to tell himself that he hated her, or at least, that we have seen.

However, it makes no sense that when he knew she was first targeted as an Order member together with the fact that the group was knocking the Order members off left and right quite frequently (and Snape had no control over who his bretheren might kill on any given day), that he would not have felt a similar urgency at that point.

I don't think it's the same as him being told that she was definitely going to die. Also, what if Lily and James were slightly less active in the Order for a time? Getting married, having Harry, raising Harry for that year... It definitely would have been a lot of extra work, and would have put three people needlessly at risk, surely? So I don't think this can be definitive, but I do see where you're going with it. :tu:

It was only when Voldemort made up his mind that Snape suddenly thinks, 'gee, Lily mght die'. Well that is a little far fetched considering the subsequent emotion that he presumably had for her, imo.

The only thing I can suggest for this is that the man was an awesome Occlumens and Legilimens. He could hide things as he wished, from who he wished. It must have been relatively easy for him to pass into denial, especially within my circumstance, where the Potters were less involved for a time.

Well, enjoy reading all of that! :rotfl:

I don't really think it was incongruent. Dumbledore tells us that they put their choice in the wrong person. I don't know how they came to that decision, other than that Sirius himself told them that giving the secret to Peter would be best, to lead Voldemort off the trail. They both made this mistake. Snape just blamed James for it, which isn't incongruous given his feelings toward James. Note, that he never said it again, once he found out the truth that the two of them, when Sirius suggested it, put their faith in Pettigrew. He couldn't deny the truth at that point. he just preferred not to think of her having anything to do with it.

I agree with you here. Severus was likely not being logical in who he chose to blame for Lily's death. Considering that this was his best friend growing up, I can only imagine how hard it would be to actually blame her, even in part, for her death. So he shifts the blame soley to James (and himself, imho, but that isn't entirly the point anyway)

People aren't really known for being logical 24/7, particularly in highly emotional circumstances.

I don't know... I think protection was on his mind too, at least in part, when he ran out there.

I also think this is what happened. Snape probably wanted to capture Black and to protect Harry at the same time IMO.

Seeing Lupin go down into the shack, I think Snape may have thought that Lupin was planning to meet Black there and was helping him IMO. By going down there Snape thought he would accomplish 2 things. Save Harry and capture Black IMO.

Touché!! I take it you won that argument! :lol: Would have loved to read it to be honest, it sounds like one of those black hole type things alright..

Oh there was no arguments at all. People just brought in statements from the book by a myriad of different wizards about death and we had a ball looking at them in terms of what JKR had revealed. I remember one with Sirius went on for like 10 pages of posts; the poor dude was just being "human" - but because he was a wizard it so didn't work. :lol:.

No, not really. :). He felt regret for the pain he caused others as a Death Eater, Lily included, and I say that because he finally felt the bitter taste of that kind of pain, when Lily died. She probably still would be dead. Voldemort would have gone after both the Potters and Longbottoms eventually anyway. Of course, the fact that the prophecy would never have been shown to him might have contradicted him, but if he had not been thwarted by Harry Potter, then he would only have continued growing more and more powerful, and then he might have killed the Potters anyway. Get me?

Not really...

I don't really think it was incongruent. Dumbledore tells us that they put their choice in the wrong person. I don't know how they came to that decision, other than that Sirius himself told them that giving the secret to Peter would be best, to lead Voldemort off the trail. They both made this mistake. Snape just blamed James for it, which isn't incongruous given his feelings toward James. Note, that he never said it again, once he found out the truth that the two of them, when Sirius suggested it, put their faith in Pettigrew. He couldn't deny the truth at that point. he just preferred not to think of her having anything to do with it.

Ah that is what I meant. I didn't mean incongruent thinking for Snape - it was perfectly the way I feel he would think. I mean incongruent with the facts as known - pretty much what you said here and below.

I think he preferred not to think of her flawed part in the decision. He was obsessed only with protecting her, I don't think he took into account that she was quite independent and that the choice to make Peter Secret Keeper was hers too. I don't see how. Just because he didn't consider her, doesn't mean he couldn't try to pass some of the blame off on James. I don't think he was being logical at all about this. He tried to blame everybody, and frequently probably found that he couldn't. James was not to blame. Eventually, this was what his decision had to be.

Yeah, I am saying the same thing, but speaking about the facts and you are speaking from Snape's POV. but we are in agreement on this.

I think Snape got more and more desperate and he toyed with blaming loads of people. In that moment, he seemed to blame James. But he couldn't justify it and he never said it again.

This is true. And true with Dumbledore and Sirius as well.

Yes, he ignored it to try to make himself feel better. But I'm not sure that Snape ever truly trusted Voldemort. If he did truly trust Voldemort, why would he go to Dumbledore? I don't think he ever saw it as him having an advantage in going to Dumbledore. It meant that he would be in Dumbledore's pocket, he must have known that. I just think he was battling to blame someone else, someone as well as himself, anything, to believe that he would not be the only one who loved her and left her down.

If you mean let her down by her death; then we are back to Snape thinking irrationally again - much like Sirius. Snape tried to rectify his mistake in taking the prophecy and did the best he could to save her. So he didn't let her down in that respect at all (that is like Sirius saying he as good as killed the Potters - nonsense). Where Snape let her down was back at Hogwarts when he chose not to change and instead became a DE. Then found himself delivering a prophecy to Voldemort that ended up targeting her family. He did let her down in that way, but no one else had - so he didn't take the comparisons to that level. Letting her down for Snape (for a time) would have been stopping Voldemort from killing her from the moment everyone found out about it (which was all the same time). But that is nonsense, because from that moment, everyone was doing their best to save Lily (including Snape).

But here is something Snape didn't seem to take into consideration and something he could have legitimately added to feeling bad about after the fact: Snape's singular attention on saving Lily to the exclusion of her husband and child, when they were all three, specifically the child, being hunted. So yes, of those legitimately trying to save the Potters, Snape was at the back of the pack of saviors, imo, due to his outlook. But I don't think Snape took this into consideration in as far as his feelings were concerned.

So really, we do agree on the majority of this, but it digressed into something quite frivolous that didn't answer many questions. It does show us though, that Snape didn't always think things through as well as he might have. I just think this was a particularly nasty moment from him.

Actually, because I was looking from a different view, we agree on this completely. You just didn't realize I was looking from a different viewpoint. :lol:. But you explained what I meant.

He abused James' character as often as he could, and yes, transferred it to Harry. Nor was he entirely wrong all the time. As stated above, James too was arrogant and difficult. He was vain, he did strut around the school as though he owned it, we know these things. I don't think Snape was able to make this all work in his head. He couldn't work out why James was any better, and he dearly hated him for that. Hence, the abuse.

But Snape's viewpoint spoke of James at 11 as if he was the same person at 17. He clearly wasn't, as JKR has said in interview, or Lily would not have dated him. We know James was arrogant and Snape didn't say he strutted around the school like he owned it, he said he strutted around with his admiring friends based on having a little bit of talent on the Quidditch pitch. The only reason I correct you is to show that Snape's statement was not truth in fact. He had a lot of talent and what he called strutting with admiring friends was being congratulated by his team mates. We can know this because he said he same thing about Harry - and we know that was not true. Snape, JKR, nor anyone in canon ever accused James of being vain - so I do not know where you got that from. His best friend was the best looking guy on campus I believe, so it would have been a bit difficult for him to rationalize that :lol:. So when you rattle off these traits that don't appear in canon or interviews, I feel you are taking Snape's viewpoint and running away with it. I am sorry if you are not, but you can point me to canon if I am mistaken.

But to try to address the point I think you are making, is that James was arrogant (full of himself) and he sought Lily's attention doing silly and outlandish things (which Snape would of course hate.) He also was a rule breaker and we have an actual example of him being impertinent. He pranked and hexed and such and snuck out at night. So some things that Snape said were correct - and I think that was your point. My only point was that Snape also exaggerated, miscontrued and lied at times as well (again, he did this with Harry too). And that is not important except that in your conclusion you state that Snape wondered how Lily could see James as any better. The truth was that Snape construed James character as he saw it; he would not acknolwedge any maturity as James got older like his "head shrinking", and he would construe James as trying to murder him and getting cold feet rather than seek the facts, etc. In other words, Snape saw him the way he always had since he was 11-15 or thereabouts - arrogant, rule breaking...etc. And so he could legitimately ask himself that question, I agree. But he refused to see any difference and that is why he saw none, imo, all he saw were the evil glares that likely passed between them throughout their education. :lol:.

Now this is just unfair :D. You didn't use my whole quote! :D I don't just think he was made a fool of, I think he was bullied. Nor do I believe for one second that James was humiliated by him, because I think that that was notihng by comparison with what he had done to Snape. Which would you rather be? Bleeding a little or lying on the street with your pants down spitting up soap that someone else your age had forced down your throat? I just think, in context, Snape's humiliation was much larger.

I wasn't being unfair - I purposely left the bit out that they asked us not to speak about and figured we could take it up in an owl (bullying). :lol:, sorry. But your construction of the scene once again leaves me to feel that you are showing some bias. Look how you make your comparison. Neither of the facts you asserted occured. So I cannot answer your question of which I feel is worse based on the canon, imo.

In any case, I only say that to help us try to keep the scene in perspective on all sides. James and Snape had feelings. Both were capable of feeling humiliation in front of Lily by being bested by the other, imo. And that was my only point. Snape felt as if he'd been made a fool of, if you wish we can call it humiliation, which you admitted you thought he felt, and so I suppose we'd agree on that. We can discuss the details via owl. ;)

No, I agree with you. He wasn't entirely pro Snape by the end. But I wonder, did the boy wonder also feel that relentless bitterness that prevented him from sympathising with Snape for too long :)? Snape was very mean about the Pensieve moment, very crude and downright nasty. I think Harry retained the bitterness about this treatment. Though it's true that most of what he says is correct, I think he did exactly what Snape was good at. He tried, so very hard, to justify the actions of he people he preferred, hie mother and father. He did eventually think it through properly, certainly with more maturity than Snape had, but it didn't stop him from being more vindictive either. But this rather has nothing to do with this debate! :D

Harry loved his dad and mum, so of course he made every effort to understand from their point of view because he had no means of speaking with them. That is why we get to many pages of Harry thinking about his father. He did not try to justify what his father had done (and neither did Sirius or Lupin - which is why they were able to help him). Harry simply realized his dad was like him - like everyone - and not to be placed on a pedestal. I think he took that lesson about his mother as well. Harry did sympathise with Snape right afterward, but he didn't care about Snape, so his thoughts on that front were not long lived. Snape continued to mistreat Harry - commencing almost immediately afterward with the flask incident, and that is why, imo, Harry's sympathy for him came to an abrupt end.


Sure, he liked saying harsh things to rile Harry, I agree.
What I meant by what I said was the "harsh words" quoted regarding his father's death by arrogance. This is something Snape did not enjoy. I say this because he did not do it again, and it seemed to bother him to huge extremes.

Yeah, I finally understood what you meant up a few paragraphs ago. ;)

He continued his negative aspects, yes. But on a basis so tiny that they were negligible in the overall, by comparison with what that one sliver of light did for him. Nor do I believe that his love can be translated as such. I don't think he saw it in this way, regardless of how you do :). I think he saw only his love for her, and that's all I see too. It's all pretty much every canonical character sees in his relationship with her. What you list does not seem to come into their minds at all, so perhaps JK Rowling did not think that it would be considered. And regardless, it did allow him to act bravely. I don't think he was a coward later in life, his scream at the end of Half Blood Prince was perfectly justified, as far as I'm concerned.

I understand this point of view; I simply don't buy it. But again, I respect your view and your right to hold it. :tu:

He wanted to keep it a secret so that nobody would know. Why would he want everybody to know? It would vindicate him, yes. But he would be ashamed to admit that despite loving a Muggle-born witch, he joined the ranks of the Death Eaters. He didn't want Harry Potter to know especially, and I think at this stage, that this was because he did not want pity from a replica of James Potter. Especially since Snape would never have pitied him.

So he kept it secret because revealing it would have been embarassing and garnered him pity from Harry? Am I understanding correctly?

Though I agree that judgment and Snape are funny bedfellows, I think his past actions become irrelevant when he talks of seeing life lost only when he cannot save it, cos that's really deep stuff. I don't think it can be equated with favouritism, with what he thought of Harry Potter, with what he thought of James Potter, with any of that. His judgment was careful enough that he planned and plotted his way through his year as Headmaster without having Harry die and without losing any students to death. He made a good plan to prevent the death of Harry right at the beginning. He was no fool, and I think his judgment is seen to work perfectly in accordance to what it should have.

Well I respect your view; I believe Snape was shown to have poor judgment not only with his students, but with adults (Tonks, The Weasleys, Sirius, Dumbledore, etc.) and in the decisions he made while working for Dumbledore that we were shown. I feel that I cannot judge his actions at DE meetings except the one we saw and the verdict is still out for that one for me. So I will address it after a bit more thought. But overall, I felt he made a number of very poor judgments - especially while Headmaster (and he was joined by other professors like McGonagall in this), and during 7 Potters in his choice of spells, and other such times. So that is how I reached my assessment, not based on one single issue such as his treatment of the students or Harry.

The only thing I can suggest for this is that the man was an awesome Occlumens and Legilimens. He could hide things as he wished, from who he wished. It must have been relatively easy for him to pass into denial, especially within my circumstance, where the Potters were less involved for a time.

That has been suggested before. I don't buy that argument only because he could have occlucmens his way out of 'feeling' when she was targeted by Voldemort (rather than the DEs). So it still seems like a plot hole to me. :lol:.

I'm off to bed, but enjoy and I'll look forward to your response. :rockon:

Sorry, guys. I don't have the patience or the time to go through Duckie's or WWB's (sorry, guys!) posts here, so I'm just commenting on random things that caught my eye.

Fortunately for the Potterverse, he did not succeed, this was all just denial, and he could not longer hide from himself that he still cared, when he learned that Voldemoirt was planning to kill Lily because of something Snape himself had reported to him. It's all well and good not to care in theory - things are different when there is some certainty, it seems to me.
I relate to this in the way that I don't always like my sister (in fact, sometimes can't stand her), or what she chooses to do, but as soon as someone says something about or does something to her, the entire situation takes a new face. Maybe not the same thing, but the feeling is the same for me. The entire situation takes on a new face when someone else without the facts, judgement, or right to make that determination about her, does.

To me this is one of those things that has a few layers going on in it in hindsight.
Not everything relating to Snape in this series is multi-layered? That must have gone right over my head!

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva!
Before DH came out, when debate was still raging, I found on the HPL the House Points running totals. I am still struck by the fact that where Snape takes (through HBP... I don't think we are told of any Points taken or given in DH) 262 Points from Gryffindor, McGonagall gives 260 Points to her House. Seems a little fishy, to me.

I agree with you here. Severus was likely not being logical in who he chose to blame for Lily's death. Considering that this was his best friend growing up, I can only imagine how hard it would be to actually blame her, even in part, for her death. So he shifts the blame soley to James (and himself, imho, but that isn't entirly the point anyway)

People aren't really known for being logical 24/7, particularly in highly emotional circumstances.
I agree with you, but I would add that Lily did not seemed as fleshed-out a character up until DH. The discussions, as I remember them before the release, always suggested James as the decision-maker. Of course, Lily had to be kept quiet until The Prince's Tale, but as it was only his friends involved in the story, I still place the decision with James. I'm sure the Feminism in DH (or Lack There-of) people hate me for saying this... but it is what I feel from reading the books (as many times as you guys have!).

The discussions, as I remember them before the release, always suggested James as the decision-maker. Of course, Lily had to be kept quiet until The Prince's Tale, but as it was only his friends involved in the story, I still place the decision with James. I'm sure the Feminism in DH (or Lack There-of) people hate me for saying this... but it is what I feel from reading the books (as many times as you guys have!).

I think this is a reasonable assumption to make, anyway. For you, for Snape, or for any reader. The persons chosen were close, long-time friends of James Potter, persons to whom I doubt Lily gave the time of day until sometime in her 6th or 7th year at the earliest. It would be natural for her to rely on James's judgment in this matter.

I think this is a reasonable assumption to make, anyway. For you, for Snape, or for any reader. The persons chosen were close, long-time friends of James Potter, persons to whom I doubt Lily gave the time of day until sometime in her 6th or 7th year at the earliest. It would be natural for her to rely on James's judgment in this matter.

In my judgment, it is not a reasonable assumption because it contradicts canon. Sirius stated in canon that he convinced both Lily and James (POA). There is nothing about reliance by Lily or her being weak and lacking autonomy in this regard. If JKR meant for us to assume Lily relied on her husband's judgment, she would have had Sirius say that 'he convinced James, and of course Lily relied on his judgment,' imo. She further had Lily write Sirius a letter in canon expressing her love for him and demonstrating the closeness of their relationship apart from either of their relationships with James. Thus, the fact that they may not have become good friends until 6th or 7th, still leaves five or six years of time for a warm and close friendship of trust to occur between Sirius and Lily.

Snape's wont to blame James for many of his woes is evidenced in many canon references throughout HP. In my judgment, his non fact based assumptions, miscontructions, half truths and omissions in that regard were provided to allow us to understand that his word was not to be trusted on the matter of James. Indeed, the same can be said for Harry, who Snape construed similarly based on his prejudiced viewpoint, imo, and we have canon evidence to show that his remarks about Harry were also non fact-based assumptions, misconstructions, half truths and omissions in story telling, imo.

In my judgment, it is not a reasonable assumption because it contradicts canon. Sirius stated in canon that he convinced both Lily and James (POA).

Cite?

There is nothing about reliance by Lily or her being weak and lacking autonomy in this regard.

I am afraid I have no idea what you are saying here. I was talking about common sense. Lily and Sirius are not old school friends, but Lily and James are married. It is reasonable to suppose she might follow her husband's lead in this matter. It is also reasonable to suppose she did not, but I do not see the evidence.

She further had Lily write Sirius a letter in canon expressing her love for him and demonstrating the closeness of their relationship apart from either of their relationships with James.

Or, she was showing that Lily took on the traditional motherly role of writing thank you letters for birhday presents to her young son while James was busy chafing at the bit. I know the Daddy of my kids would NEVER bother. :p :lol:

At any rate, both pieces of evidence you provide, explain why you think I have no business drawing such a conclusion about Lily after reading DH. As such, they belong on the Lily character development thread. It remains a most reasonable conclusion for Snape (and readers) to make through HBP. Snape has no hint of warm friendship between Lily and Sirius independent of James (whether or not such existed). And he had excellent reasons in PoA not to consider Sirius reliable.

Cite?

Well leave it to a Bruin to request evidence! :lol:. But that is what makes Bruins great [/end flagrant plug for the greatest team known to mankind]. The cite is: POA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort (Brit Ed. page 268 if you have that version). He says it twice naming them both - interestingly naming Lily first.

I am afraid I have no idea what you are saying here. I was talking about common sense. Lily and Sirius are not old school friends, but Lily and James are married. It is reasonable to suppose she might follow her husband's lead in this matter. It is also reasonable to suppose she did not, but I do not see the evidence. Or, she was showing that Lily took on the traditional motherly role of writing thank you letters for birhday presents to her young son while James was busy chafing at the bit. I know the Daddy of my kids would NEVER bother. :p :lol:

:lol:. Well my point was that JKR also supplied us with evidence that Lily loved Sirius as a friend of hers. I didn't mean the fact that she sent Sirius the letter because I agree with you - my girlfriend too was the letter sender. But rather the contents of the letter. She spoke of personal things, like the vase and how she didn't care it broke ~ which being as it was from her sister would require a bit of explanation if Sirius was not 'in the know' on the details of that situation (and Lily knew he was) - and that was personal with respect to only Lily. She told him about their meeting with Bathilda and did not mention what James thought about it, only what she felt. It was the warm nature of the note, finished "Love, Lily" that I was speaking about.

So while I agree that James and Sirius had known one another longer and had an unshakeable bond of brotherhood and all of that, I think JKR made it clear that Lily too loved and trusted Sirius as a friend. That is why I believe she had Sirius say he 'persuaded Lily and James' - rather than merely 'James' allowing us to assume Lily went along with it due to her husband's confidence and not her own. I think Lily too placed her trust in Sirius and then in Peter. Lily also expressed sympathy for Peter in the letter as well, so it would seem that there was a relationship between them as well - she did refer to him as "wormy" :lol:

At any rate, both pieces of evidence you provide, explain why you think I have no business drawing such a conclusion about Lily after reading DH. As such, they belong on the Lily character development thread.

Well I didn't mean anything so harsh as that. :lol:. But I do think the conclusion you drew contradicts canon. While it may seem all of this concerns Lily - it really only does indirectly - I am actually talking about Snape (and ya I know, his name has yet to be mentioned. :lol:, but that is coming)

It remains a most reasonable conclusion for Snape (and readers) to make through HBP. Snape has no hint of warm friendship between Lily and Sirius independent of James (whether or not such existed). And he had excellent reasons in PoA not to consider Sirius reliable.

So all of that leads to the conclusion for me, that Lily made the decision on her own based on her character. In my view, Snape of everyone knew that Lily was an independent thinker; free from influences that went against her way of thinking. So in considering the issue, in my judgment, Snape would know, with certaintly, that Lily had not allowed herself to be guided by James or anyone else, in placing her trust in Sirius because he knew she would make her voice heard when the issue she was facing was important. Lily did this with respect to their friendship and if we base our understanding of their friendship on the passages we have, we see Lily always speaking her mind, even when she knows it is contrary to what a person wants to hear, imo.

Okay, so that should go in the Lily/Snape thread. But finally I come to Snape alone. What I feel is that Snape would not blame Lily under any circumstance. Snape felt regret and deep remorse for his action that had resulted in her death. I feel he didn't like to think about it at all and when he did, he placed the blame on others in order to keep his mind from his own involvement which would necessarily send him reeling into misery. Remember he did this with Dumbledore first thing, "you said you'd keep her safe" (although subsequently on that day he did think in terms of himself in my view).

So I believe that while Snape himself understood that Lily too had placed her trust in Sirius, his point was, anyone who did that was good as killing themselves because Sirius was untrustworthy. In my view, that would be the very last construction Snape would place on any action of Lily's associated with her death. He could not blame her no matter what. So in conjunction with the point he was making, he could only say James because blame was being cast by his statement.

That of course raises the issue of blaming the victim which is altogther wrongful to do in any case, imo, but Snape was willing to do that in order to cast blame. It was a very emotional situation where his own misdeed was brimming on the surface of his consciousness, imo, which is exactly when Snape was wont to do this (as I pointed out with the Dumbledore situation.)

Not really...

Okay, I'll try better! :lol:
I think Snape for a long time had not felt an entirely large amount of pain, or at least the overt loss of losing someone he loved. In this way, I think he only came to regret ever joining the Death Eaters after Lily's death, because he finally felt that pain and finally knew exactly why the Death Eaters and their leader were so hated. It was a merciless operation and I think he detested being part of it because it took Lily from him. This is how I think he came to regret the decision to join up in the first place. Now do you see? :D

Ah that is what I meant. I didn't mean incongruent thinking for Snape - it was perfectly the way I feel he would think. I mean incongruent with the facts as known - pretty much what you said here and below.

Ah, we're fine so. :tu:

Yeah, I am saying the same thing, but speaking about the facts and you are speaking from Snape's POV. but we are in agreement on this.

Facts as taken from his POV, yes. It's actually handy that we do this different ways. It's brought out new things. :)

If you mean let her down by her death; then we are back to Snape thinking irrationally again - much like Sirius. Snape tried to rectify his mistake in taking the prophecy and did the best he could to save her. So he didn't let her down in that respect at all (that is like Sirius saying he as good as killed the Potters - nonsense).

Outside of the fact that I think Snape had major problems with rational thinking, this wasn't so much what I meant. I do agree that he was thinking irrationally. He wasn't responsible for her death, but I think he maybe felt that he was, to a larger degree than he was. I think he loved her, but he left her down when he called her Mudblood.

Then found himself delivering a prophecy to Voldemort that ended up targeting her family. He did let her down in that way, but no one else had - so he didn't take the comparisons to that level. Letting her down for Snape (for a time) would have been stopping Voldemort from killing her from the moment everyone found out about it (which was all the same time). But that is nonsense, because from that moment, everyone was doing their best to save Lily (including Snape.)

I'm terribly sorry, but to me that looks as though you're saying Snape would have left Lily down by stopping Voldemort from killing her? Perhaps I have this wrong or a word is missing? Sorry! :)

I actually think that, if he did make comparisons, he did take them to this level. I think he tried just about anything to rationalise it all in his head.

But here is something Snape didn't seem to take into consideration and something he could have legitimately added to feeling bad about after the fact: Snape's singular attention on saving Lily to the exclusion of her husband and child, when they were all three, specifically the child, being hunted. So yes, of those legitimately trying to save the Potters, Snape was at the back of the pack of saviors, imo, due to his outlook. But I don't think Snape took this into consideration in as far as his feelings were concerned.


Again, we disagree :D. I think he did think this through, but only after Dumbledore actually expressly told him how disgusted he was at Snape. Though I don't think Snape ever liked this thought (in fact, I figure he resented it more than anything else- he was being asked to mind the son of someone he loathed, and he didn't think that person would have reciprocated), he came to accept it, but he could never justify his feelings about it. He felt guilty for that and again tried to blame others, mostly James, because otherwise he couldn't fight off the unnerving feeling he ended up with

Actually, because I was looking from a different view, we agree on this completely. You just didn't realize I was looking from a different viewpoint. :lol:. But you explained what I meant.

Which is always good! :lol:

But Snape's viewpoint spoke of James at 11 as if he was the same person at 17. He clearly wasn't, as JKR has said in interview, or Lily would not have dated him. We know James was arrogant and Snape didn't say he strutted around the school like he owned it, he said he strutted around with his admiring friends based on having a little bit of talent on the Quidditch pitch. The only reason I correct you is to show that Snape's statement was not truth in fact. He had a lot of talent and what he called strutting with admiring friends was being congratulated by his team mates. We can know this because he said he same thing about Harry - and we know that was not true. Snape, JKR, nor anyone in canon ever accused James of being vain - so I do not know where you got that from. His best friend was the best looking guy on campus I believe, so it would have been a bit difficult for him to rationalize that :lol:. So when you rattle off these traits that don't appear in canon or interviews, I feel you are taking Snape's viewpoint and running away with it. I am sorry if you are not, but you can point me to canon if I am mistaken.

I take this on board, but hear me out. Harry was told by Lupin that his father wasn't the nicest person in his earlier years. He was impatient with those of less talent- calling Peter "thick"- and he was cocky in terms of assuming outright that he had aced the DADA exam in fifth year. He stole a snitch just to be able to play around with it where all could see, and he was very blasé about doing so. It is says that James enjoyed the attention of Peter clapping as he caught the snitch again and again, even though Harry found that reaction quite annoying. It also says that Harry was able to work out that his father kept rumpling his hair and watching the girls by the lake. It states "Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off." After they tripped Snape up on that day, James approached him on the floor while watching the girls over his shoulder. James was also the one to start the fight that day. Again, when he was yelled at to leave Snape alone, he made his hair look perfect again. He was arrogant enough to think that Lily would go out with him if he tried to bribe her. Sirius tells him outright, "I think she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate." Lupin says his head deflated later on. Harry directly saw his father being conscious of those looking at him and working to make sure he always looked good. Lily tells us that he always messed up his hair to make it look as though he had just come off his broomstick. This is added to because we do see James doing that later on. Snape is incorrect however, when he states these things about Harry. I think all of this qualifies as canon in what we are talking about. I don't see how any of this shows good things about James, and this is taken straight from SWM.

But to try to address the point I think you are making, is that James was arrogant (full of himself) and he sought Lily's attention doing silly and outlandish things (which Snape would of course hate.) He also was a rule breaker and we have an actual example of him being impertinent. He pranked and hexed and such and snuck out at night. So some things that Snape said were correct - and I think that was your point.

My point is a bit heftier than that, but the essentials are there.

My only point was that Snape also exaggerated, miscontrued and lied at times as well (again, he did this with Harry too). And that is not important except that in your conclusion you state that Snape wondered how Lily could see James as any better. The truth was that Snape construed James character as he saw it; he would not acknolwedge any maturity as James got older like his "head shrinking", and he would construe James as trying to murder him and getting cold feet rather than seek the facts, etc. In other words, Snape saw him the way he always had since he was 11-15 or thereabouts - arrogant, rule breaking...etc. And so he could legitimately ask himself that question, I agree. But he refused to see any difference and that is why he saw none, imo, all he saw were the evil glares that likely passed between them throughout their education. :lol:.

I agree that Snape misconstrued and exaggerated, but he had no reason to think that James was any better. They continued to hex each other. James' only advantage, as Sirius and Lupin say in Order of the Phoenix, is that Lily did not know about James doing so.. Snape didn't see any difference, he didn't want to, as well as not being able to, because to him, there wasn't a whole lot of difference there. I can safely guarantee that James would never have seen any maturity in Snape either. We have character sketches of James from his friends, who were lenient and fond. Snape had no friends to offer us this. Clearly, he "cleaned up his act", so to speak. He was mature enough to be trusted not to lose the cool when plotting with the Death Eaters. Though it's wrong, it does show development of maturity and adult thinking, even from the wrong side.

But your construction of the scene once again leaves me to feel that you are showing some bias. Look how you make your comparison. Neither of the facts you asserted occured. So I cannot answer your question of which I feel is worse based on the canon, imo.

You mean, the scene in SWM where James and Sirius trip and disarm Snape, wash his mouth out with soap when he swears, pull him into the air and show his underpants to the world, drop him meanly at Lily's command and let him flail there, before taking it up all over again and threatening to remove said underpants just because Lily had rejected James? The only hit Snape got in was one tiny cut. I hate to be a girl about this, but the guy who bleeds will always look a hero. I've seen it! :lol: But I do think this comparison is based in canon. My having taken it from SWM... ;)

In any case, I only say that to help us try to keep the scene in perspective on all sides. James and Snape had feelings. Both were capable of feeling humiliation in front of Lily by being bested by the other, imo. And that was my only point. Snape felt as if he'd been made a fool of, if you wish we can call it humiliation, which you admitted you thought he felt, and so I suppose we'd agree on that. We can discuss the details via owl. ;)

This is fair enough, but I must question the use of humiliation with relation to James. He so quickly got his own back, and laughed at it, that I don't think the blood mattered to him at all. All attention as instantly drawn back to Snape in the air. I just think, on a technical basis, this is a scene that has to be looked at with some more care by you and I. :)

Harry loved his dad and mum, so of course he made every effort to understand from their point of view because he had no means of speaking with them. That is why we get to many pages of Harry thinking about his father. He did not try to justify what his father had done (and neither did Sirius or Lupin - which is why they were able to help him). Harry simply realized his dad was like him - like everyone - and not to be placed on a pedestal. I think he took that lesson about his mother as well. Harry did sympathise with Snape right afterward, but he didn't care about Snape, so his thoughts on that front were not long lived. Snape continued to mistreat Harry - commencing almost immediately afterward with the flask incident, and that is why, imo, Harry's sympathy for him came to an abrupt end.

But Harry did not lose sympathy straightaway. He tells Lupin and Sirius at the beginning of Easter that he never thought he would feel sympathy for Snape. He did not try to justify what his father had done, but Lupin and Sirius did. They thought of it with fondness and dismissed it as a silly prank. They considered the cockiness a pleasant trait and stated that all 15 year olds were like James- which Harry could not swallow, as he stated "I'm fifteen!".

Yeah, I finally understood what you meant up a few paragraphs ago. ;)

Sooo glad! If I had to do that one once more.. :D

I understand this point of view; I simply don't buy it. But again, I respect your view and your right to hold it. :tu:

Heck yes you do! :) And ditto. :tu:

So he kept it secret because revealing it would have been embarassing and garnered him pity from Harry? Am I understanding correctly?

Not entirely. That is the general gist, but there is more to it. I think he didn't want pity from Harry because he could never reciprocate on that. Do you disagree? We can go through it somewhat more if you disagree, but otherwise, what are your thoughts?

I believe Snape was shown to have poor judgment not only with his students, but with adults (Tonks, The Weasleys, Sirius, Dumbledore, etc.) and in the decisions he made while working for Dumbledore that we were shown. I feel that I cannot judge his actions at DE meetings except the one we saw and the verdict is still out for that one for me. So I will address it after a bit more thought. But overall, I felt he made a number of very poor judgments - especially while Headmaster (and he was joined by other professors like McGonagall in this), and during 7 Potters in his choice of spells, and other such times. So that is how I reached my assessment, not based on one single issue such as his treatment of the students or Harry.

How did he misjudge Tonks, the Weasleys? I see with Sirius, but nobody was more used by Dumbledore than him. It seems to me that everybody misjudged Dumbledore, and many people came away with a different view of him? I also don't know where you have details regarding his tenure as Headmaster, or indeed, McGonagalls role? I would love to know where you get these from, or read these from, so we can talk more about it. I do think his choice of spells was a bit idiotic and slightly out of sync, but I can also argue that if it was his specialty, nobody would doubt him using it to cause death instead of Avada Kedavra.

That has been suggested before. I don't buy that argument only because he could have occlucmens his way out of 'feeling' when she was targeted by Voldemort (rather than the DEs). So it still seems like a plot hole to me. :lol:.

No, it doesn't work like that. He could have closed his mind to Voldemort, or to an extent he could have buried the smaller feelings underneath it, taking them onboard as denial, because he was consistently denying them to others and from others. I think that the Lily being close to death storyline just made him approach the edge of the cliff. He was so emotionally upside down that he actually cried and begged and pleaded, which was very out of character.

Talking of Occlumency, J.K. Rowling has discussed why Draco Malfoy would be skilled at it while Harry Potter was not, and this fits the Snape story too.

...I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself.

I think this is something to think about in regards of this entire side of the debate, it could tell us more if we go into it more.:)

Again, this took a long time to reply to, sorry about that. But I'm sure you enjoyed the break!! :D

Also...

Sorry, guys. I don't have the patience or the time to go through Duckie's or WWB's (sorry, guys!) posts here, so I'm just commenting on random things that caught my eye.

:(

I think we're okay with that! Sometimes I haven't the patience myself.. ;)

I relate to this in the way that I don't always like my sister (in fact, sometimes can't stand her), or what she chooses to do, but as soon as someone says something about or does something to her, the entire situation takes a new face. Maybe not the same thing, but the feeling is the same for me. The entire situation takes on a new face when someone else without the facts, judgement, or right to make that determination about her, does.

Yup, that's also a great way of putting it into human emotion and perspective. I agree completely.

Before DH came out, when debate was still raging, I found on the HPL the House Points running totals. I am still struck by the fact that where Snape takes (through HBP... I don't think we are told of any Points taken or given in DH) 262 Points from Gryffindor, McGonagall gives 260 Points to her House. Seems a little fishy, to me.

It does all seem to balance alright, which is either weirdly coincidential or carefully crafted in.

agree with you, but I would add that Lily did not seemed as fleshed-out a character up until DH. The discussions, as I remember them before the release, always suggested James as the decision-maker. Of course, Lily had to be kept quiet until The Prince's Tale, but as it was only his friends involved in the story, I still place the decision with James. I'm sure the Feminism in DH (or Lack There-of) people hate me for saying this... but it is what I feel from reading the books (as many times as you guys have!).

I agree with you here too. As a plot device, we were led to believe that James made the choice, even when told otherwise. Even through the seventh book, when harry spoke to Lupin in book 5 etc, we never knew a whole lot about Lily the woman, the person. We didn't even need to know about Lily the woman Snape loves, but... just Lily... As in, we know quite a bit about James...

Okay, I'll try better! :lol:
I think Snape for a long time had not felt an entirely large amount of pain, or at least the overt loss of losing someone he loved. In this way, I think he only came to regret ever joining the Death Eaters after Lily's death, because he finally felt that pain and finally knew exactly why the Death Eaters and their leader were so hated. It was a merciless operation and I think he detested being part of it because it took Lily from him. This is how I think he came to regret the decision to join up in the first place. Now do you see? :D

I understand what you are saying - this is what I understood you to be saying previously as well. However, I don't understand how you are distinguishing between Snape's overall regret/remorse and that which he felt in relation to Lily. It appears what you have said is only in relation to her and I agree with that.

Outside of the fact that I think Snape had major problems with rational thinking, this wasn't so much what I meant. I do agree that he was thinking irrationally. He wasn't responsible for her death, but I think he maybe felt that he was, to a larger degree than he was. I think he loved her, but he left her down when he called her Mudblood.

Ah! I thought you meant in relation to her death. Well I agree with this; he did let her down by calling her this - but note that for Lily, it was not just this. She indicated it was for his calling others mudblood as well as his other dark arts interests and friends. Lily tied all of this in with her statement about her having pretended when it came to Snape and I feel her overall point was that while she had maintained that Snape's behavior with her indicated that there was hope for him, she had come to the realization that was not the case. Snape calling her a Mudblood to her face simply was indicative of that in her mind (imo).

I'm terribly sorry, but to me that looks as though you're saying Snape would have left Lily down by stopping Voldemort from killing her? Perhaps I have this wrong or a word is missing? Sorry! :)

:lol:. No that is not what I was saying. He only let her down as a friend by becoming a DE and all that entailed, imo.

I actually think that, if he did make comparisons, he did take them to this level. I think he tried just about anything to rationalise it all in his head.

I would have to respectfully disagree because if he had done this - say in comparison to Sirius - he would have come to the clear truth that his disregard for Lily's husband and child made him lacking in comparison. I feel he would have behaved distinctly if he'd acknowledged that.

Again, we disagree :D. I think he did think this through, but only after Dumbledore actually expressly told him how disgusted he was at Snape. Though I don't think Snape ever liked this thought (in fact, I figure he resented it more than anything else- he was being asked to mind the son of someone he loathed, and he didn't think that person would have reciprocated), he came to accept it, but he could never justify his feelings about it. He felt guilty for that and again tried to blame others, mostly James, because otherwise he couldn't fight off the unnerving feeling he ended up with

While I would concede it is a possibility; it is strange for a person to act out so aggressively on their resentment if there is a great amount of remorse and regret underlying, indeed driving that feeling, imo.

I take this on board, but hear me out. Harry was told by Lupin that his father wasn't the nicest person in his earlier years.

When you make factual statements like this, it would be good to include a canon reference so that I know what you are referring to. Lupin never said these words in canon. I'll break down your quote here to show you what I mean.

He was impatient with those of less talent- calling Peter "thick"-

I agree this showed impatience with Peter's inability to recall werewolf traits after being around one so many times. I feel this happened quite often because we saw Sirius likewise become impatient with Peter. However, I am interested in why you generalize this notion to "impatient with those of less talent". Indeed being one of the two cleverest in the school, James would be impatiet with everyone :lol:. We know that is not the case as shown with his patience with Lily.

and he was cocky in terms of assuming outright that he had aced the DADA exam in fifth year.

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon.

He stole a snitch just to be able to play around with it where all could see, and he was very blasé about doing so.

He absolutely nicked the snitch, however, if you are implying by "where all could see" to mean that he wished for all to see, I would disagree that the conclusion matches the canon we were given. Harry asked about this and Sirius told him that James always showed off when Lily was around. He was showing off for her, according to the canon we were provided with. Indeed Harry noted while watching that James was watching the girls by the lake.

It is says that James enjoyed the attention of Peter clapping as he caught the snitch again and again, even though Harry found that reaction quite annoying.

Harry and Sirius. :lol:. But this was all apart of the show for Lily, imo.

It also says that Harry was able to work out that his father kept rumpling his hair and watching the girls by the lake.

Which goes to what I wrote previously and supports Sirius' statement that he was doing these things for Lily's benefit. In fact, he did them 'whenever Lily was around' according to Sirius.

It states "Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off."

Context is important. When Harry made this statement, he was unaware that his father had a crush on his mother at that time. It all made sense when explained to him later (recall he didn't even get the "LE" written by his father in the snitch he was drawing previously)

After they tripped Snape up on that day, James approached him on the floor while watching the girls over his shoulder. James was also the one to start the fight that day. Again, when he was yelled at to leave Snape alone, he made his hair look perfect again. He was arrogant enough to think that Lily would go out with him if he tried to bribe her.

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon, although I didn't interpret it that way.

Sirius tells him outright, "I think she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate."

Actually, Sirius was being funny, imo. Lily called James a fathead. I think any 10 year old would understand that comment. :lol:. But again, this James did constantly when "Lily was around".

Lupin says his head deflated later on.

Again, arrogance and showing off for Lily is not equivalent to vanity, imo. So if that is your point, we would have to agree to disagree.

Harry directly saw his father being conscious of those looking at him and working to make sure he always looked good. Lily tells us that he always messed up his hair to make it look as though he had just come off his broomstick. This is added to because we do see James doing that later on.

This was all for Lily. And I would disagree that it was done for the general public.

Snape is incorrect however, when he states these things about Harry. I think all of this qualifies as canon in what we are talking about.

How do you know that none of this is true about Harry?

I don't see how any of this shows good things about James, and this is taken straight from SWM.

As I have tried to show, I feel context is important and that is why it is good to quote the canon so I can reference exactly what you are referring to. Some of what you are referring to cannot be from "SWM", for example, what "Lupin said" because he spoke in OOTP Careers Advice, POA and several other cites in canon.

I agree that Snape misconstrued and exaggerated, but he had no reason to think that James was any better. They continued to hex each other. James' only advantage, as Sirius and Lupin say in Order of the Phoenix, is that Lily did not know about James doing so..

Here again, you are making a definitive point about Snape, but misquoting the canon. If this point is to be justified it must fit with what was actually said, not a reconstruction of those words that give them a different meaning. It does not say 'they continued to hex eachother', nor did Lupin say 'James only advantage was Lily did notknow about James doing so'. The actual statements are in Careers Advice, OOTP. If you like, we can discuss those.

Snape didn't see any difference, he didn't want to, as well as not being able to, because to him, there wasn't a whole lot of difference there.

Thus this conclusion is not supported by the actual canon, imo. I think we can use the actual words to gauge if this conclusion is true or not, but we have to take them directly from the canon, imo. I agree there is no difference at all if we use the words you have provided, but those are not what was stated in the canon. So I think there was ample opportunity and evidence for Snape to see a difference based on what was actually stated. And this is important because it shows the way in which Snape was looking at the situation.

We have character sketches of James from his friends, who were lenient and fond. Snape had no friends to offer us this.

Huh? The Prince's Tale was an offering from Snape's friend, Lily. The sketches she offered of Snape were not good, but that does not mean she wasn't a friend. She conceded they were best friends and she was fond of him and she revealed aspects of his young personality just as James friends did about him. And the thing is, Snape was also present with Lily, adding to that depiction.

Clearly, he "cleaned up his act", so to speak. He was mature enough to be trusted not to lose the cool when plotting with the Death Eaters. Though it's wrong, it does show development of maturity and adult thinking, even from the wrong side.

Are you being serious? If so, I would have to disagree that Snape's joining the death eaters and becoming a minion of Voldemort's shows any sign of growth or maturity with respect to his adult thinking. But if you were joking, then :lol:.

You mean, the scene in SWM where James and Sirius trip and disarm Snape, wash his mouth out with soap when he swears, pull him into the air and show his underpants to the world, drop him meanly at Lily's command and let him flail there, before taking it up all over again and threatening to remove said underpants just because Lily had rejected James? The only hit Snape got in was one tiny cut. I hate to be a girl about this, but the guy who bleeds will always look a hero. I've seen it! :lol: But I do think this comparison is based in canon. My having taken it from SWM... ;)

This is closer, but still an erroneous re-telling of the canon, imo. For example, tiny cuts do not cause blood to splatter all over one's clothes. I know this for a fact having received numerous cuts of various degrees when young in connection with sports. Your redention of the scene is not altogether in order either. And this is only important if you actually recall the scene in this way, in which case I think we should quote the canon to reach a valid conclusion.

This is fair enough, but I must question the use of humiliation with relation to James. He so quickly got his own back, and laughed at it, that I don't think the blood mattered to him at all. All attention as instantly drawn back to Snape in the air. I just think, on a technical basis, this is a scene that has to be looked at with some more care by you and I. :)

So what was he feeling? Surely you don't think he had no feelings? Snape did not believe he did, but everyone of course has feelings. And telling me that he only had a need for revenge is not enough because it doesn't explain why that need arose.

But Harry did not lose sympathy straightaway. He tells Lupin and Sirius at the beginning of Easter that he never thought he would feel sympathy for Snape. He did not try to justify what his father had done, but Lupin and Sirius did. They thought of it with fondness and dismissed it as a silly prank. They considered the cockiness a pleasant trait and stated that all 15 year olds were like James- which Harry could not swallow, as he stated "I'm fifteen!".

This was only a couple of days later as I recall. So I am not sure of your point. I also disagree with your interpretation of what Lupin and Sirius said. Again, I would ask that we quote the canon in making our points.

Not entirely. That is the general gist, but there is more to it. I think he didn't want pity from Harry because he could never reciprocate on that. Do you disagree? We can go through it somewhat more if you disagree, but otherwise, what are your thoughts?

Yes, I do disagree. However, I was merely trying to understand your viewpoint. I am still a little fuzzy on the pity issue :lol:. I personally still feel about this the way I indicated I did in my previous post. I can restate that if you have forgotten. (This is as to why Snape didn't wish to tell anyone, especially Harry, that he had made his promise to help due to his emotions for Lily)

How did he misjudge Tonks, the Weasleys?

I didn't say he misjudged them. I said he used poor judgment in is interaction with them. In HBP, Snape decided to taunt Tonks about her patronus when she was in a fragile state. In OOTP, Snape decided to completely ignore the Weasleys when Arthur, a fellow Order member, returned from his near death experience at the hospital. Snape's judgment in this situations relative to how he chose to act was very poor, imo.

It seems to me that everybody misjudged Dumbledore, and many people came away with a different view of him?

I do not understand what people misjudging Dumbledore has to do with Snape's poor judgment. I do not mean to suggest that Snape was the only person who ever showed poor judgment. I simply feel that Snape constantly showed poor judgment, with very few exceptions.

I also don't know where you have details regarding his tenure as Headmaster, or indeed, McGonagalls role? I would love to know where you get these from, or read these from, so we can talk more about it.

I was speaking of what we know was occuring while he was Head master and while the other professors on the good side were working at Hogwarts in 7th year. I don't care what they actually did, that is irrelevant to my point. What they didn't do was get those kids out of Hogwarts, and that is all that matters to the point I made.

No, it doesn't work like that. He could have closed his mind to Voldemort, or to an extent he could have buried the smaller feelings underneath it, taking them onboard as denial, because he was consistently denying them to others and from others. I think that the Lily being close to death storyline just made him approach the edge of the cliff. He was so emotionally upside down that he actually cried and begged and pleaded, which was very out of character.

How can you be certain how it works with Snape? I readily admit that anything is possible, but I do not think we have any information regarding Snape's occlucmency skills except to know they were good and that Harry could bypass them with Voldemort's soul piece if Snape wasn't expecting it. I do not see anything except a plot hole here.

Talking of Occlumency, J.K. Rowling has discussed why Draco Malfoy would be skilled at it while Harry Potter was not, and this fits the Snape story too.

...I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself.

I think this is something to think about in regards of this entire side of the debate, it could tell us more if we go into it more.:)

But this is relative to Draco and Harry only. Not Snape or Bella or Dumbledore. Quite obviously it is distinct for everyone as JKR pointed out. So I don't think we can conclusively use this skill to try and cover the plot hole related to Snape as a Death Eater.

All right, I'm out for a while - but great conversation as always. I think we need to quote the canon a bit more tho on the SWM issues with respect to how Snape saw things. :rockon:

I understand what you are saying - this is what I understood you to be saying previously as well. However, I don't understand how you are distinguishing between Snape's overall regret/remorse and that which he felt in relation to Lily. It appears what you have said is only in relation to her and I agree with that.

Basically, what I see is that no person could enjoy the life Snape had. I don't think even you would think it was pleasant. He hated what happened to Lily. It made him rethink. When he rethought, he likely thought that joining the Death Eaters was a bad idea in the first place. But it was what happened to Lily that made that happen, yes.

Ah! I thought you meant in relation to her death. Well I agree with this; he did let her down by calling her this - but note that for Lily, it was not just this. She indicated it was for his calling others mudblood as well as his other dark arts interests and friends. Lily tied all of this in with her statement about her having pretended when it came to Snape and I feel her overall point was that while she had maintained that Snape's behavior with her indicated that there was hope for him, she had come to the realization that was not the case. Snape calling her a Mudblood to her face simply was indicative of that in her mind (imo).


I got all that, yep.

:lol:. No that is not what I was saying. He only let her down as a friend by becoming a DE and all that entailed, imo.

Now see, that makes sense! :D

I would have to respectfully disagree because if he had done this - say in comparison to Sirius - he would have come to the clear truth that his disregard for Lily's husband and child made him lacking in comparison. I feel he would have behaved distinctly if he'd acknowledged that.

Though I agree that this should have happened, I don't think he had the emotional depth or the ability to be logical like you or I. His own character shows on more than one occasion that he wasn't the most sensible in thinking things through at all, and he had difficulty accepting his own flaws.

While I would concede it is a possibility; it is strange for a person to act out so aggressively on their resentment if there is a great amount of remorse and regret underlying, indeed driving that feeling, imo.

Not if they weren't the bigger person, and Snape wasn't the bigger person.

I agree this showed impatience with Peter's inability to recall werewolf traits after being around one so many times. I feel this happened quite often because we saw Sirius likewise become impatient with Peter. However, I am interested in why you generalize this notion to "impatient with those of less talent". Indeed being one of the two cleverest in the school, James would be impatiet with everyone :lol:. We know that is not the case as shown with his patience with Lily.

Fair enough, I used the incorrect word, I should have said "impatient with one of less talent".

Patient with Lily though he was, he did take his impatience out on others. In this instance, Snape. As soon as Lily's back was turned, James rounded once more on Snape and...

"Right", said James, who looked furious now, "right.."
There was another flash of light, and Snape was once again hanging upside down in the air.

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon.

Plausible?

"Well, I thought that paper was a piece of cake", he heard Sirius say. "I'll be surprised if I don't get 'Outstanding' on it at least."
"Me too", said James.

He absolutely nicked the snitch, however, if you are implying by "where all could see" to mean that he wished for all to see, I would disagree that the conclusion matches the canon we were given. Harry asked about this and Sirius told him that James always showed off when Lily was around. He was showing off for her, according to the canon we were provided with. Indeed Harry noted while watching that James was watching the girls by the lake.

I think you're setting too much store by singular words in my posts. I will try to rectify it. Again, I meant the girls by the lake. Having re read it though, there were other students around.

Sirius stared around at the students milling over the grass, looking rather haughty and bored, but very handsomely so

So it does sound, on reflection, as though there were more than the four under the tree, Snape and the girls by the lake. Nor did I mean that he deliberately did it for all to watch him. This was for Lily. But he didn't care either, that others could see him.

Harry and Sirius.

Ironic, isn't it, that Sirius changed his tune later on? That he "beamed reminiscently" upon hearing about it?

Which goes to what I wrote previously and supports Sirius' statement that he was doing these things for Lily's benefit. In fact, he did them 'whenever Lily was around' according to Sirius.

I know we'll likely disagree here, but that alone doesn't justify the arrogance.

Context is important. When Harry made this statement, he was unaware that his father had a crush on his mother at that time. It all made sense when explained to him later (recall he didn't even get the "LE" written by his father in the snitch he was drawing previously)

I do recall that. But again, it doesn't stop the idea that Sirius alone could make James stop gloating. And why have we deviated? :lol: This is about Snape!

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon, although I didn't interpret it that way.

What way do you interpret it? It sounds very interesting, given this.

"This'll liven you up Padfoot", said James quietly. "Look Who it is...."

Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. "Excelent", he said softly. "Snivellus."
Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at.
Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he left the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up.
...
"All right, Snivellus?" said James loudly.

Snape lay panting on the ground. James and Sirius advanced on him, wands raised, James glancing over his shoulder at the girls at the water's edge as he went.

"Leave him ALONE!"
James and Sirius looked round. James' free hand immediately jumped to his hair.

"You think you're funny", she said coldly. "But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone."

"I will if you go out with me Evans", said James quickly. "Go on, go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again."

Actually, Sirius was being funny, imo. Lily called James a fathead. I think any 10 year old would understand that comment. :lol:. But again, this James did constantly when "Lily was around".

I think he was trying to be funny, yes. But again, it doesn't take away from the fact that Sirius did know this about James and said nothing tangible.

Again, arrogance and showing off for Lily is not equivalent to vanity, imo. So if that is your point, we would have to agree to disagree.

We'll have to agree to disagree. He thought a lot of himself, that's for sure, even if it was for Lily. He also hexed people simply because he could (Careers Advice, Order of the Phoenix) and he did have a big head (I say this because Sirius says in Careers Advice that James deflated his head later on.)

How do you know that none of this is true about Harry?

I think, after reading seven books about Harry, that he showed no signs of vanity, didn't care what he looked like, never acted like a "fathead" to impress a girl, certainly never used his wand to achieve that aim, never nicked from the school's property... He did not strut about the school as though he owned it... Harry had nothing dislikable (new word?:lol:) about him, as such, other than a temper near the fore, possibly coming from the piece of Voldemort in him. I think Sanpe was therefore incorrect in saying these things. Quoting canon in this case is quite difficult, as far as I'm concerned. I just do not see these things about Harry at all.

As I have tried to show, I feel context is important and that is why it is good to quote the canon so I can reference exactly what you are referring to. Some of what you are referring to cannot be from "SWM", for example, what "Lupin said" because he spoke in OOTP Careers Advice, POA and several other cites in canon.

I meant the part from "Snape's Worst Memory", it has very little to do with what they said afterward, other than that they said it.

Here again, you are making a definitive point about Snape, but misquoting the canon. If this point is to be justified it must fit with what was actually said, not a reconstruction of those words that give them a different meaning. It does not say 'they continued to hex eachother', nor did Lupin say 'James only advantage was Lily did notknow about James doing so'. The actual statements are in Careers Advice, OOTP. If you like, we can discuss those.

No, it says the following.

"And stopped hexing people for the fun of it", said Lupin.
"Even Snape?" said Harry.
"Well", said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I ean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
"And my Mom was okay with that?"
"She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth", said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him on front of her, did he?"

I read that as they continued to hex each other.. And it was an advantage to James in that Lily did not know he was doing it to Snape, but she did likely know that Snape was hexing James.

Thus this conclusion is not supported by the actual canon, imo. I think we can use the actual words to gauge if this conclusion is true or not, but we have to take them directly from the canon, imo. I agree there is no difference at all if we use the words you have provided, but those are not what was stated in the canon. So I think there was ample opportunity and evidence for Snape to see a difference based on what was actually stated. And this is important because it shows the way in which Snape was looking at the situation.

I simply do not think, based on the better canon above, that Snape saw a huge difference between himself and James in terms of winning Lily's affections. I don't think he could quite see the justification behind her choosing James when they continued to hex one another, and I don't think he could justify Lily choosing James. I think he picked the moment in which he called her a Mudblod as his worst time, but I think he couldn't quite see what was worse about than than what James had done to Snape, who was supposedly her oldest friend. I know that's POV, but you have to take guesses somewhere.

Huh? The Prince's Tale was an offering from Snape's friend, Lily. The sketches she offered of Snape were not good, but that does not mean she wasn't a friend. She conceded they were best friends and she was fond of him and she revealed aspects of his young personality just as James friends did about him. And the thing is, Snape was also present with Lily, adding to that depiction.

But not so much as did Sirius and Lupin in "Careers Advice". We saw a very flawed image of Snape from Lily's POV, considering he had just called her a Mudblood. There is a section just prior to this where she was questioning his use of Dark Magic that I agree with. Snape was an unsavoury character, but the anger from Lily when he came to the Common Room ("The Princce's Tale") to apologise must be counted as such. She was very, very angry. So angry that they appear not to have been friends again.

Are you being serious? If so, I would have to disagree that Snape's joining the death eaters and becoming a minion of Voldemort's shows any sign of growth or maturity with respect to his adult thinking. But if you were joking, then :lol:.

I'm not joking, you just misunderstand me. I am not making allowances for what he did, at all. I think it was the stupidest decision he ever made, and it's not the decision I'm talking about. But there can be no denying that Snape was trusted in there. He must have planned and plotted, must have been trusted to keep his secrets, and though growth and maturity are perhaps the wrong words, do you see where I'm coming from?

It's sort of like, Voldemort had good qualities even though he used them in the wrong ways. Snape was the same. He chose to use qualities in the wrong way. Get me?

This is closer, but still an erroneous re-telling of the canon, imo. For example, tiny cuts do not cause blood to splatter all over one's clothes.

No, tiny cuts don't, that's true. But neither did it incapacitate James, nor did he yell about it. So I don't think it was as huge as it can be made out to be. If it was big enough, he would have said something, surely? Regardless of brevity, a yell wouldn't hurt...

But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled around...

I also figure that, in whirling, blood would have went a bit further. I'm sure with sports injuries you might have seen this occur too. Displaying a split second in text is difficult, but I imagine James turned even before the cut was made.

So what was he feeling? Surely you don't think he had no feelings? Snape did not believe he did, but everyone of course has feelings. And telling me that he only had a need for revenge is not enough because it doesn't explain why that need arose.

How James was feeling? Annoyed. I know I would have been annoyed. But not necessarily humiliated, not in context. The annoyed idea allows for the revenge.

This was only a couple of days later as I recall. So I am not sure of your point. I also disagree with your interpretation of what Lupin and Sirius said. Again, I would ask that we quote the canon in making our points.

I'm not so sure that it was a few days later. The Occlumency lessons weren't exactly the most timetabled things. Herminoe asks Harry on the first day of the Easter Holidays "Why haven't you got Occlumency lessons anymore?" (Career's Advice). We're not actually told that it was a few later, and that's a bit annoying to me. If you can find proof either way, I'd love it.

Yes, I do disagree. However, I was merely trying to understand your viewpoint. I am still a little fuzzy on the pity issue :lol:. I personally still feel about this the way I indicated I did in my previous post. I can restate that if you have forgotten. (This is as to why Snape didn't wish to tell anyone, especially Harry, that he had made his promise to help due to his emotions for Lily)

I haven't forgotten ;). If you're still fuzzy on the pity issue, fair enough. Can't do much to change your mind on it. :)

I didn't say he misjudged them. I said he used poor judgment in is interaction with them. In HBP, Snape decided to taunt Tonks about her patronus when she was in a fragile state. In OOTP, Snape decided to completely ignore the Weasleys when Arthur, a fellow Order member, returned from his near death experience at the hospital. Snape's judgment in this situations relative to how he chose to act was very poor, imo.
Again, wrong word from me. But I don't think that's poor judgement. I think he was jealous of Tonks and Lupin. I don't think he exercised poor judgement in leaving without acknowledging the Weasleys. I just reckoned he wanted to get away from Sirius. Molly Weasley seemed to have some respect for him just moments earlier...

"Snape?" said Harry blankly.
"Professor Snape, dear," said Mrs. Weasley reprovingly.

and later..

Both Sirius and Snape lowered their wands. Harry looked from one to the other. Each wore an expression of utmost contempt, yet the unexpected entrance of so many witnesses seemed to have brought them to their senses. Snape pocketed his wand, turned on his heel and swept back across the kitchen, passing the Weasleys without comment. At the door, he looked back.
"Six o clock, Monday evening, Potter."

I just don't see what it has to do with poor judgement, as opposed to getting out.


I was speaking of what we know was occuring while he was Head master and while the other professors on the good side were working at Hogwarts in 7th year. I don't care what they actually did, that is irrelevant to my point. What they didn't do was get those kids out of Hogwarts, and that is all that matters to the point I made.

I see what you mean now, but I don't see how they could have gotten the students out? Dumbledore himself seemed to think that the students would stay, and that Snape would do everything he could to protect them, he got that promise from him, we saw it in The Prince's Tale, shortly after Snape discovered Dumbledore would die. What would the teachers have done with the students? I'm not sure there was much choice for where they could otherwise go... Other than home? Is that what you mean?

How can you be certain how it works with Snape? I readily admit that anything is possible, but I do not think we have any information regarding Snape's occlucmency skills except to know they were good and that Harry could bypass them with Voldemort's soul piece if Snape wasn't expecting it. I do not see anything except a plot hole here.

I can't be certain, I just think, no offence, that my idea is closer what we're told in the books. If Snape can protect Voldemort from seeing his mind, then maybe by doing this so often, he ends up in denial. I don't think he could just get rid of the feeling totally with it.

But this is relative to Draco and Harry only. Not Snape or Bella or Dumbledore. Quite obviously it is distinct for everyone as JKR pointed out. So I don't think we can conclusively use this skill to try and cover the plot hole related to Snape as a Death Eater.

I just kinda thought it sounded like Snape in places, but we'll discount it. As for Bella, whole other kettle of fish! :lol:

Goodnight! :tu:

What would the teachers have done with the students? I'm not sure there was much choice for where they could otherwise go... Other than home? Is that what you mean?

Muggleborns were not allowed to attend, and school attendance for all others, was mandatory. These policies were, I imagine, Voldemort's. Snape had little choice but to go along with them.

I can't be certain, I just think, no offence, that my idea is closer what we're told in the books. If Snape can protect Voldemort from seeing his mind, then maybe by doing this so often, he ends up in denial. I don't think he could just get rid of the feeling totally with it.

What bypassed Snape's Occlumency defenses, IMO, was Snape's own Legilimens spell, which Harry turned back on him with a Shield Charm. As Snape would never cast a Legilimens spell verbally at Voldemort for Voldemort to deflect (there are much cleaner ways to kill oneself) this would never have happened. So, no plot hole that I can see.

Muggleborns were not allowed to attend, and school attendance for all others, was mandatory. These policies were, I imagine, Voldemort's. Snape had little choice but to go along with them.

What bypassed Snape's Occlumency defenses, IMO, was Snape's own Legilimens spell, which Harry turned back on him with a Shield Charm. As Snape would never cast a Legilimens spell verbally at Voldemort for Voldemort to deflect (there are much cleaner ways to kill oneself) this would never have happened. So, no plot hole that I can see.

Yup, with you on all of that. The Occlumency/Legilimency thing was never made entirely clear. The best we can do is guess politely at it and hope we have the general gist. It seems to have all sorts of capabilities, but I suppose any doubts we have is covered by Snape calling it "obscure"! :lol:

From the Snape and Lily thread.

With respect to Snape being like Tobias in character when he grew up, I found an uncanny similarity between the scene we saw of Tobias yelling at Snape's cowering mother, Eileen - and the scene where Snape is yelling at a cowering Harry in his office following the Occlucmency lessons.

Snape was in a similar venemous rage as Tobias, imo, with spittle coming from his mouth and facing down the helpless Harry. We have no canon that Tobias became physically abusive with Eileen, but he may have. Snape did; he shoved Harry with all of his might to the floor and then threw a jar of cockroaches at the child's head as he was trying to flee (OOTP, SWM). However, another similarlity arises when later Snape is with Harry in the classroom and the flask incident occurs, showing Snape's continued vindictiveness in my judgment. This was like Tobias as well because Snape told Lily that Tobias was still at it when Lilly asked - so it would seem he had a vindictive nature like his son. So it is very possible that Snape's behavior in this regard was in mimicking that of his father. Although it may have also been influenced by Voldemeort who had a similar bullying nature.

From the Snape and Lily thread.

With respect to Snape being like Tobias in character when he grew up, I found an uncanny similarity between the scene we saw of Tobias yelling at Snape's cowering mother, Eileen - and the scene where Snape is yelling at a cowering Harry in his office following the Occlucmency lessons.

Snape was in a similar venemous rage as Tobias, imo, with spittle coming from his mouth and facing down the helpless Harry. We have no canon that Tobias became physically abusive with Eileen, but he may have. Snape did; he shoved Harry with all of his might to the floor and then threw a jar of cockroaches at the child's head as he was trying to flee (OOTP, SWM). However, another similarlity arises when later Snape is with Harry in the classroom and the flask incident occurs, showing Snape's continued vindictiveness in my judgment. This was like Tobias as well because Snape told Lily that Tobias was still at it when Lilly asked - so it would seem he had a vindictive nature like his son. So it is very possible that Snape's behavior in this regard was in mimicking that of his father. Although it may have also been influenced by Voldemeort who had a similar bullying nature.

I agree with you on all of that, and I think it's very sad part to the character of Snape. It's upsetting to think that he essentially turned into his father, likely the one person he wanted to be nothing like.

It's a deep irony in that way, and it makes me feel huge sympathy for Snape, because fundamentally, as he showed, his feelings were much more capable and endearing than his father's, and the good things he did really shone through. He was a fundamentally different person from his father, and it's really sad that that could never really happen.

I do also agree that Voldemort had some part to play in this. He brought out the worst in people, for sure, so I think the poor and shady characteristics of his father really came out because of him too.

:tu:

I don't think we know enough about Tobias Snape to start making parallels between him and Severus. The two things we know of him was Severus' memory of Tobias shouting at a cowering Eileen and Severus telling Lily that his dad doesn't like anything. I know we can inferrence that Tobias was a bad father/husband/person, but based on personal experience, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Tobias may have been a bad father/husband/person when Severus was a kid, but we have no proof that he didn't change as Severus grew older.

I don't think we know enough about Tobias Snape to start making parallels between him and Severus. The two things we know of him was Severus' memory of Tobias shouting at a cowering Eileen and Severus telling Lily that his dad doesn't like anything. I know we can inferrence that Tobias was a bad father/husband/person, but based on personal experience, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Tobias may have been a bad father/husband/person when Severus was a kid, but we have no proof that he didn't change as Severus grew older.

We don't have eny evidence that he did, either, so I personally am going with what we do have. If there's no amendment or any further mention of him in the books, he likely didn't change or in any case it didn't matter to anything if he did.

I don't really know anything about the theory of abused children adopting habits from their parents.Most of Snapes outburst to me seems to come from pent-up rage that is not addressed or delt with and is thus expressed in short ,sharp bursts.True he's generally in a foul mood most of the time,but I think the dislays of anger come more from him not dealing with his feelings and surpressing them(which he may do).Both the instances you mention are over matters that are very sore subjects for him.You could argue that Harry gets irrationally angry whenever his parents are mentioned(mainly by snape),he does infact get violent towards malfoy after the quidditch match.My point here is everyone has their limits.This is by no means a healthy way to deal with emotions,I'm just saying it shown in other characters too.I suppose you could argue the age difference and Snape should know better.I dunno,like I said,it was a touchy subject for him.
Having said all that Snape one of the characters I've analysed the least,I could be comepletly wrong. :lol:

This is by no means a healthy way to deal with emotions,I'm just saying it shown in other characters too.I suppose you could argue the age difference and Snape should know better.I dunno,like I said,it was a touchy subject for him.

Right - in the books it seems to be human nature to lash out at people in anger. Arthur Weasley has a public fist-fight with Lucius Malfoy! Harry tries to strangle Sirius Black, and then in HBP he tries to publically strangle Mundungus Fletcher.

None of that even counts the times that Ginny uses her bat-bogey hex, for which she is rewarded by Slughorn because it is a sign of how "powerful" she is. That might give a clue to the way Slytherins are encouraged to use their powers.

Also, I think we just have to cut Snape some slack - he's got the Dark Mark burning him, Harry doesn't try very hard to see his point of view, he's worried about Dumbledore, and his life is basically a misery most of the time. But all the other adult males show an angry side - even Dumbledore at times - so I think he is consistant with other characters.

Right - in the books it seems to be human nature to lash out at people in anger. Arthur Weasley has a public fist-fight with Lucius Malfoy! Harry tries to strangle Sirius Black, and then in HBP he tries to publically strangle Mundungus Fletcher.

None of that even counts the times that Ginny uses her bat-bogey hex, for which she is rewarded by Slughorn because it is a sign of how "powerful" she is. That might give a clue to the way Slytherins are encouraged to use their powers.

Also, I think we just have to cut Snape some slack - he's got the Dark Mark burning him, Harry doesn't try very hard to see his point of view, he's worried about Dumbledore, and his life is basically a misery most of the time. But all the other adult males show an angry side - even Dumbledore at times - so I think he is consistant with other characters.

I actually hadn't thought of that. There are hundreds of instances where power is seen as a good thing and a little bit of anger doesn't exactly go astray in many areas throughout the books. Snape (and his father) are certainly not alone in having moments of anger that burst out. Even harry and Ron have them. Hermione smacked Draco Malfoy! It's actually anninteresting theme that anger is displayed in very uncontrollable measures the whole way through, and Snape is, in this regard, vcertainly not without excuse either. :tu:

I feel the distinction between Snape and other characters is that Snape was not always provoked into lashing out, meaning it was not always done in anger. Imo, it also arose from his naturally bitter and cruel nature. For example he wasn't angry when he told Hermione her overly large teeth looked just like her normal teeth, or when he belittled Neville in front of the class and Lupin, or when he taunted and humiliated Harry the first day of class in PS/SS. In addition, Snape percieved slights unjustifiably, imo, and lashed out at those times as well. So that is why I feel that Snape had a particular difficulty in this regard, above and beyond that which the other characters displayed. I feel it might have been in part influenced by his background.

I feel the distinction between Snape and other characters is that Snape was not always provoked into lashing out, meaning it was not always done in anger. Imo, it also arose from his naturally bitter and cruel nature. For example he wasn't angry when he told Hermione her overly large teeth looked just like her normal teeth, or when he belittled Neville in front of the class and Lupin, or when he taunted and humiliated Harry the first day of class in PS/SS. In addition, Snape percieved slights unjustifiably, imo, and lashed out at those times as well. So that is why I feel that Snape had a particular difficulty in this regard, above and beyond that which the other characters displayed. I feel it might have been in part influenced by his background.

His habit of cruelty and belittling people may have sprung from the fact that he was rediculed himself at school because of his appearance and other things (still no excuse).We know he suffered cruel behaviour at home (and arguably at school).I think both things would have effected his behaviour.Unfortunatly people like this usually come to practice these habits too.

His habit of cruelty and belittling people may have sprung from the fact that he was rediculed himself at school because of his appearance and other things (still no excuse).We know he suffered cruel behaviour at home (and arguably at school).I think both things would have effected his behaviour. Unfortunatly people like this usually come to practice these habits too.
I agree that his home-life, and his humiliation at the hands of the Marauders contributed to it, but I find it hard to cut him some slack, because a lot of it, he brought down on himself, by choosing to associate with the wrong kind of people, and because of the ideals (or lack thereof) that he followed. Even the dark mark that burns him, he chose to accept willingly.

The thing is, although he doesn't seem emotional during the instances wwb describes, there's always more underneath the surface.

We can use Neville as an example. Although he seems calm and composed when trying to frighten the poor kid, his speech does give away his emotion. "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" is a statement full of impatience and exasperation.

Even when Snape lowers his voice, a common sign of calm, he is really just getting angrier. We notice it during those times he corners Harry after Harry breaks a rule (or when Snape thinks he has). We also notice that when arguing with Sirius in OotP, Snape's voice grows "quietly waspish" as the argument goes on.

Severus can pretend his feelings don't play a part in most of his actions, but we know better.

I agree that his home-life, and his humiliation at the hands of the Marauders contributed to it, but I find it hard to cut him some slack, because a lot of it, he brought down on himself, by choosing to associate with the wrong kind of people, and because of the ideals (or lack thereof) that he followed. Even the dark mark that burns him, he chose to accept willingly.

Oh I'm not overlooking the decisions he made himself.He's accountable for those.But I feel it is unfair to overlook the aspects of his homelife.What he was at home lead to his wanting to be in Slytherin.Being in Slytherin further contributed to the kind of person he was in his teenage years,and then who he was later in life.It's almost like a domino effect.Obviously there comes an age,a point in your life when you have to choose to breakfree of the situation your in ,and to change,this is not easy though.I'm excusing him of everything that happened in his life,I'm just saying it's a difficult situation to judge considering there were many factors against him.

The thing is, although he doesn't seem emotional during the instances wwb describes, there's always more underneath the surface.
Of course there is. But what is Snape's motivation to lash out in those instances? In the first class, Harry has done nothing wrong yet, Snape really had no cause to belittle Neville in front of Lupin, and Hermione had done nothing at all. It appears that Snape does those things simply because he could get away with them.

We can use Neville as an example. Although he seems calm and composed when trying to frighten the poor kid, his speech does give away his emotion. "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" is a statement full of impatience and exasperation.
That I agree with. But that is a different occasion. Neville had done something wrong. I think that WWB was referring specifically to those occasions in which Snape lashes out for no reason at all.

I agree that his home-life, and his humiliation at the hands of the Marauders contributed to it, but I find it hard to cut him some slack, because a lot of it, he brought down on himself, by choosing to associate with the wrong kind of people, and because of the ideals (or lack thereof) that he followed. Even the dark mark that burns him, he chose to accept willingly.

I agree! He brought everything on himself! But vivek, it is us Snape fans who cuts him some slack! Not Snape himself! If I read the books, Snape never ever gets into a self-pity state, or justifies his lack of home life; never says that Lily left him so he went astray, never says that he was placed in Slytherin and so he made mistakes; or even calling Lily a mudblood was in a fit of anger because he was in a deeply humiliating position; there is only an apology; he was prepared to sleep outside Gryffindor what what he considered a great mistake; but even there he never justifies IMO.

He simply accepts. Everything. And really, that aspect of his character alone I think transforms him to a person who IMO was deeply admirable in my eyes for the way he accepted his mistakes without offering any excuse/justification at any time to anyone and worked unceasingly until he died because he felt in his soul IMO.

He had a bad childhood, had no guidance like Harry or a family like Ron and went on to make wrong choices; he lost the love of his life, because of those choices, he had a hand in the death of the only person who had cared for Severus and whom he loved and instead of blaming the fates, or others or simply breaking down, he makes amends IMO.

And because Snape never cuts any slack for himself, I cut an awful lot of it for him. :D

Of course there is. But what is Snape's motivation to lash out in those instances? In the first class, Harry has done nothing wrong yet, Snape really had no cause to belittle Neville in front of Lupin, and Hermione had done nothing at all. It appears that Snape does those things simply because he could get away with them.

IMHO, that's not really a realistic reason why anything is done. Take Draco's bullying of Harry and his friends, for instance: That behavior stems from both Draco's upbringing and anger because Harry rejected him on the train in favor of a "blood-traitor".

Even when it seems Snape is just bullying Harry for the heck of it, there is always an underlying reason for it. Sometimes it's Harry's remarkable physical similarity to James. Sometimes Snape thinks Harry is doing something wrong when Harry hasn't. Sometimes Harry has done something wrong. And sometimes Snape is trying to test Harry or is reaching out to him in some strange way.

People do things that are hurtful and wrong all the time, and some even claim that they just did it for no reason. But there is always a reason, because obviously no one is innately cruel or bitter.

Even when it seems Snape is just bullying Harry for the heck of it, there is always an underlying reason for it. Sometimes it's Harry's remarkable physical similarity to James. Sometimes Snape thinks Harry is doing something wrong when Harry hasn't. Sometimes Harry has done something wrong. And sometimes Snape is trying to test Harry or is reaching out to him in some strange way.

:agree: But I do think Snape shows exceptional bias too. After all, as Dumbledore said, he saw what he wished to see. I put that entirely down to his previous experiences, but I cut him a lot of slack for it because I genuinely feel that he was forced to look after something that to him, represented the biggest loss he ever suffered.

People do things that are hurtful and wrong all the time, and some even claim that they just did it for no reason. But there is always a reason, because obviously no one is innately cruel or bitter.

And Snape most definitely proved himself in that regard. Sure, he maybe wasn't very nice at times, but neither are normal people. I can be an absolute cow when I so wish; it doesn't mean I lack empathy or pity or a sense of justice. Snape is the same. He was misanthropic, for sure, but so are a lot of people. The guy just didn't wear his heart on his sleeve.

I agree! He brought everything on himself! But vivek, it is us Snape fans who cuts him some slack! Not Snape himself! If I read the books, Snape never ever gets into a self-pity state, or justifies his lack of home life; never says that Lily left him so he went astray, never says that he was placed in Slytherin and so he made mistakes; or even calling Lily a mudblood was in a fit of anger because he was in a deeply humiliating position; there is only an apology; he was prepared to sleep outside Gryffindor what what he considered a great mistake; but even there he never justifies IMO.

He never seeks to justify what he does. :agree: So I love this point. It's us who choose to judge him as we see fit, and my view on him will never change.

He simply accepts. Everything. And really, that aspect of his character alone I think transforms him to a person who IMO was deeply admirable in my eyes for the way he accepted his mistakes without offering any excuse/justification at any time to anyone and worked unceasingly until he died because he felt in his soul IMO.

Absolutely, very nicely written! :D He never offers excuses or tries to redeem himself outwardly. Everything he did, he did in private, secretly, and lived a very lonely life as a result.

He had a bad childhood, had no guidance like Harry or a family like Ron and went on to make wrong choices; he lost the love of his life, because of those choices, he had a hand in the death of the only person who had cared for Severus and whom he loved and instead of blaming the fates, or others or simply breaking down, he makes amends IMO.

He's the best example of an anti hero in the books. He's very conflicted and he really does achieve so much, just not that we can see. For the majority of those books, he was supposedly of moral ambiguity, and yet, he watched Quirrell, kept Harry safe, taught thousands of students, minded Malfoy, took a life and gave his own, in the pursuit of something better, anything at all to redeem himself- not to us, but to himself. It wasn't something for anybody else to see or be privy to, and I love that simple fact. Snape wasn't interesting in pleasing others. He did what he had to do for his own peace of mind, and he spent his life trying to make up for what he had done.

And because Snape never cuts any slack for himself, I cut an awful lot of it for him. :D

The thing is, although he doesn't seem emotional during the instances wwb describes, there's always more underneath the surface.

We can use Neville as an example. Although he seems calm and composed when trying to frighten the poor kid, his speech does give away his emotion. "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" is a statement full of impatience and exasperation.

Even when Snape lowers his voice, a common sign of calm, he is really just getting angrier. We notice it during those times he corners Harry after Harry breaks a rule (or when Snape thinks he has). We also notice that when arguing with Sirius in OotP, Snape's voice grows "quietly waspish" as the argument goes on.

Severus can pretend his feelings don't play a part in most of his actions, but we know better.

Well I feel there was always something provoking Snape when he behaved in a cruel or bullying manner - even if it was simply the need to lash out due to his general state of bittnerness and unhappiness. However, I believe he also perceived slights, where those he was interacting had no idea he was perceiving them. That is because, in my judgment, at times they were deeply personal and had nothing to do with the person he was interacting with.

For example, with Hermione's teeth. Apart from the general molestia all professors must deal with, there was nothing in the context of that situation to make a reasonable man feel wapish, based on the kids' behavior. An easily annoyed professor would simply speak abruptly and tell the girl to go to the hospital ward - and a fair professor would then speak to the purpetrator, imo. But Snape felt something; perhaps merely a vindictiveness arising out of the opportunity to belittle someone's appearance as had been done to him all of his life (including by the school children.) Or perhaps something else provoked him. But in any case, he appeared to enjoy himself behaving in that manner and that together with the fact that there was nothing in the situation to directly cause him to feel wapish, imo, leads me to believe that he simply enjoyed behaving in a cruel and bullying manner (hence the terms frequently used to describe his behavior: smirks, snide tone of voice, cruel smiles, sneers, spoken with malice, etc.) In my view, even the reason I gave lends itself to that conclusion. That is, whatever provoked him, I feel he took pleasure in behaving in this fashion, whether there was a perceived slight, a real slight or no slight at all.

I know this is entirely off topic, but what does "waspish" mean?

:whistle:

Waspish in some nations. But it means behavior that is irascibly or petulantly spiteful.

And because Snape never cuts any slack for himself, I cut an awful lot of it for him.
:agree: That's exactly how I feel. If he were to be patting himself on the back throughout the books, he'd be dead to me. He may dish it out, but he certainly knows more than anyone else about the mistakes he made in his life, imo.

:agree: That's exactly how I feel. If he were to be patting himself on the back throughout the books, he'd be dead to me. He may dish it out, but he certainly knows more than anyone else about the mistakes he made in his life, imo.

I respect your view, but I don't feel that distinguishes him in anyway. Doesn't everyone know more about their mistakes they've made in their life than anyone else? Nonetheless, it seems to me that Snape patted himself on the back whenever the opportunity arose to do so.

I respect your view, but I don't feel that distinguishes him in anyway. Doesn't everyone know more about their mistakes they've made in their life than anyone else? Nonetheless, it seems to me that Snape patted himself on the back whenever the opportunity arose to do so.

Could you provide any examples? The only one I can think of would be him telling Harry he is the Half-Blood Prince-- and even that is strechting it quite a bit.

For example, with Hermione's teeth. Apart from the general molestia all professors must deal with, there was nothing in the context of that situation to make a reasonable man feel wapish, based on the kids' behavior.

The comments about Hermione's teeth came at a time when the dark mark was getting darker everyday IMO.

When Snape made that comment, he was surrounded by Slytherins, most of them DE kids. Snape made that comment to a muggleborn - a mudblood, showing that he was with Voldmeort to those kids, than to Hermione IMO.

I respect your view, but I don't feel that distinguishes him in anyway. Doesn't everyone know more about their mistakes they've made in their life than anyone else? Nonetheless, it seems to me that Snape patted himself on the back whenever the opportunity arose to do so.

Yes they do; but most of them justify their mistakes to themselves first and to others next. That was something I felt Snape never did IMO.

Yes they do; but most of them justify their mistakes to themselves first and to others next. That was something I felt Snape never did IMO.Thanks. That's what I was getting at- I just didn't think an explanation was needed.

The comments about Hermione's teeth came at a time when the dark mark was getting darker everyday IMO.

When Snape made that comment, he was surrounded by Slytherins, most of them DE kids. Snape made that comment to a muggleborn - a mudblood, showing that he was with Voldmeort to those kids, than to Hermione IMO.

Personally, I'd have agreed with your point if he was saying it in front of their parents or Bellatrix- but IMO, to belittle a student, especially a teenage student, over her appearance- and to do it in front of other students, too- was unnecessary and reprehensible of Snape as a teacher.
There's no leaving aside the fact that in later years, Snape did a tremendous lot to help the Trio, but as far as I can see he was never more than neutral (at best) towards anyone who was friendly with Harry. Though of course we never see him in class with anyone except the Gryffindors and Slytherins, so we'll never know if he behaved the same way with ALL his non-Slytherin students or if it was just Gryffindor House whose students (possibly because of Potter-Black associations) he didn't like.

The only student from a "neutral" House that expresses an opinion, IIRC, is Ernie McMillan (Hufflepuff) in HBP. He compliments the first DADA class (and expresses no surprise, so I think from his viewpoint, Snape as DADA teacher seemed no different than Snape as Potions teacher).

The only student from a "neutral" House that expresses an opinion, IIRC, is Ernie McMillan (Hufflepuff) in HBP. He compliments the first DADA class (and expresses no surprise, so I think from his viewpoint, Snape as DADA teacher seemed no different than Snape as Potions teacher).

Yeah, I was thinking of him too. I figure that Snape was mostly a fairly neutral individual with the students, if a tough teacher, but he obviously did favour the Slytherins (old habits die hard and all that). I also agree with TGW that he made smart comments a lot more when under severe stress.

If it were me, having run from Voldemort with the Dark marks till on my arm, I think I would have been very crabby too..

It is canon in CoS that Snape was a sarcastic and cruel professor, disliked by all of the students except those in Slytherin (the Whomping willow). To me his behavior as a professor throughout the series, even as a DADA professor, supported that statement. In my judgment, his particular treatment of Harry was far worse.

I also agree with TGW that he made smart comments a lot more when under severe stress.

Yes, that could explain a lot. PoA and GoF were the books where Severus' dark side really showed, and in those same books, there were circumstances that would have deeply affected him: PoA had Lupin's return, Sirius breaking free from prison, and Severus' fears that Lupin was a traitor out to kill Harry. And all throughout GoF, he was noticing his Dark Mark growing steadily clearer. He knew he had to return to spying soon, something that would not help his mood any.

* Do you interpret this scene differently after DH?

No, I always just knew from PS/SS that Severus Snape was Dumbledore's man through and through

What does the look in Snape's eyes mean in your opinion?

Merlins Beard! Dumbledore's Drawers! Harry's Horcrux! Your eyes would glitter too, if you were about to do what Snape had to do!


Do you think that the handshake was more than an empty gesture?

Yes, I do. Both men were good and honorable. They may have hated each other, but they were the same type of person, fighting for the right cause and they both knew it. This doesn't mean they weren't still human and flawed and let those facts get the better of them on occasion


1. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

Mostly. I consider Severus Snape more admirable that I think JKR does. Not that she doesn't think he was admirable.

2. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think so, yes. Assuming he wasn't killed by an Auror before seeing the error of his ways. He was ultimately a decent good person who'd had many hard knocks in his life


3. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

He loved Dumbledore at least as much as he loved Lily. It was his love and respect for Dumbledore, not Lily that made him do what he did for Dumbledore. I don't think he was unpleasant to Sirius because he loved Lily. He was unpleasant to Sirius because the two had been like oil and water from the moment they met. Sirius and his friends did some pretty nasty stuff to Severus from the very start for no real good reason other than they just didn't like him.

4. Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Poor guy had been dumped on and picked on his entire life. Everyone wants to be liked and to have friends. He just wasn't nearly as good as Harry was in his youth at figuring out who "the wrong sort" were

5. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Snape's actions towards Harry and Neville were regrettable, lamentable and unpleasant. But I think Snape needed to be that way in order to accomplish the tasks that had been set for him.

6. What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

I wish he'd given more thought to Lily's child as well as Lily herself. Alas, James had been too thoroughly unpleasant to Severus for too long to expect much from Severus in regards to James

7. What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

It strengthened it.


8. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Bravery
Honor
Integrity
Fearless

Held grudges
Judgemental
Inflexible


9. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I think he cared about all the students. He was especially inept in being able to express that fact in a positive way

10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

Both.

11. Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Slytherin as it was at the time he was sorted into it, no. Sorting hat made a mistake there, I think. Too bad Snape wasn't a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff. Not a Gryffindor, unfortunately I fear he, James and Sirius would have made his life too unpleasant for one another if they'd all been Gryffindors. Slytherin as it was before Tom Riddle I Am Lord VOldemort brought his influence into it and warped it or Slytherin in the days after Harry defeated Voldemort would be a different matter. He would have made different choices if he'd been in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff because he would have been exposed to fewer of the "wrong sort" of potential friends.

12. There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?


Great galloping Gringotts Goblins! All I had to do is read the HP books to know that Severus Snape is a hero!

I picked dog, cat, and bat for Snape's pets. Poor guy could have used some unconditional love from a dog. The cat ignoring him would have taught him humility. The bat, well, he was sort of a great big lovable bat himself, wasn't he? I should also have picked the Jessica option because it amuses me.

:tu: Great post, TerrierMom, it's hard for me to think of something to add. :D

9. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I think he cared about all the students. He was especially inept in being able to show that fact in a positive way.

I thought it was very telling, in "The Prince's Tale", in the scene where Snape has just healed DUmbledore's hand and they are talking about future plans. Snape is quite understated, but very qiock to agree when Albus asks if he will protect the students to the best of his ability.

It is canon in CoS that Snape was a sarcastic and cruel professor, disliked by all of the students except those in Slytherin (the Whomping willow). To me his behavior as a professor throughout the series, even as a DADA professor, supported that statement. In my judgment, his particular treatment of Harry was far worse.

Yeah, but do you not agree that if it was just canon and what has been written, that a lot of characters would be very two dimensional? I figure it's beneficial at least to try to look beyond it into the characters mind. Plus, as Zara said, Ernie does make a fair point. For someone who isn't a Slytherin, his reading seems quite out of place not to have been deliberate.

Yes, that could explain a lot. PoA and GoF were the books where Severus' dark side really showed, and in those same books, there were circumstances that would have deeply affected him: PoA had Lupin's return, Sirius breaking free from prison, and Severus' fears that Lupin was a traitor out to kill Harry. And all throughout GoF, he was noticing his Dark Mark growing steadily clearer. He knew he had to return to spying soon, something that would not help his mood any.

Yep! It's in canon for sure that he got very aggravated at certain times and was more likely to lose the plot when severely agitated, as proven more than once. It's a point that I don't think I'd ever thought of before now, but it makes perfect sense. He is, after all, only human.

Yeah, but do you not agree that if it was just canon and what has been written, that a lot of characters would be very two dimensional? I figure it's beneficial at least to try to look beyond it into the characters mind. Plus, as Zara said, Ernie does make a fair point. For someone who isn't a Slytherin, his reading seems quite out of place not to have been deliberate.

Well I respect your view, but I didn't find Snape's character in canon to be two dimensional at all as written. Certainly we had to wait to see what was going on with him in total until the finish of DH, but taking that into account did not change any of Snape's actions or behavior. Explaining the motivation for his cruelty and bullying of the children doesn't make it go away, imo. I understand him better, and that understanding has made his actions and behavior even more abhorant to me because I feel his underlying motivation and intent were inappropriate, and arose out of bitterness, unhappiness, extreme arrogance and vindictiveness. For me, those things cannot be explained away by background experiences and current undertakings. In my jugdment, everyone had it hard, but everyone didn't behave like Snape. It is that old saying which was quite fitting and ignored by Snape: Life is hard; wear a helmet.

Waspish in some nations. But it means behavior that is irascibly or petulantly spiteful.

*facepalm* I love that, in trying to explain the meaning of some obscure word, you manage to use two even more obscure words. :lol:

Explaining the motivation for his cruelty and bullying of the children doesn't make it go away, imo. I understand him better, and that understanding has made his actions and behavior even more abhorant to me because I feel his underlying motivation and intent were inappropriate, and arose out of bitterness, unhappiness, extreme arrogance and vindictiveness.

What? I'm sure you didn't mean this, but the way you phrased this sentence you imply that, had his motivation to 'bully' and 'be sarcastic' been because of a happy childhood or other such 'good' things that his later actions would be deemed good. The fact is, most bitter people have some past experience that makes them bitter. The difference between Severus and those other characters that don't sink to the same bitterness as Severus is their friends. Harry surrounded himself by loving friends thoughout Hogwarts, Severus surrounded himself with future-to-be Death Eaters once Lily left. (After all, who else would be friends with the Slytherins? The books have shown a decidedly negative bias to all things Slytherin, which I would think isolate those students among themselves) The circumstances are very different, there.

Also, could you provide examples of Severus' arrogance (along with those instances of him patting himself on the back, that you've still not shown me)? Everything I read has shown him to rather humble, all circumstances considered.

Honestly, I do find Severus to be a rather demanding character-- and he does, on occation, take things too far. However, unlike you, I can not hold such small character flaws against him to the extreme extent and say he is an 'evil' character because of his bitter demenour.

I might go so far as to compare him to the popular character 'House' from the show of the same name. He is bitter, sarcastic, and goes so far as to insult patients all the time, yet in the end he ends up saving their lives time after time. That he has a terrible personality (and quite frankly, is rather unproffessional) doesn't undermine the fact that he is a terrific doctor. While I don't think a doctor like that would be allowed to go to the extremes he does with his patients, this is just a television show and must be given some amount of artisitic license.

I would never think of Severus as a perfect character. Everyone from the Potterverse has their negative traits-- I don't see why when it comes to Severus we have to keep on the obvious 'he's grumpy, he's sarcastic, he's bitter' and not see all the good he did despite this. :/

Well I respect your view, but I didn't find Snape's character in canon to be two dimensional at all as written. Certainly we had to wait to see what was going on with him in total until the finish of DH, but taking that into account did not change any of Snape's actions or behavior. Explaining the motivation for his cruelty and bullying of the children doesn't make it go away, imo. I understand him better, and that understanding has made his actions and behavior even more abhorant to me because I feel his underlying motivation and intent were inappropriate, and arose out of bitterness, unhappiness, extreme arrogance and vindictiveness. For me, those things cannot be explained away by background experiences and current undertakings. In my jugdment, everyone had it hard, but everyone didn't behave like Snape. It is that old saying which was quite fitting and ignored by Snape: Life is hard; wear a helmet.

Ah, I see what you mean, but it's exactly what I've bolded that I see as two dimensional, in that purely as written regard. If you get me.. ;) I just think the necessity of seeing and understanding his character must come from more than canonical explanation in some cases. We know nothing about his mind, so we choose things from canon that pick up on a particular point of view. I always see where you're coming from, but I think it comes down to individual bias based on the person's own reading. It's why I adore Snape and you have reservations- quite severe ones, no offence meant. We're opposite sides of a warped scale, and that's why this thread is on version 9! :lol:

Regarding everyone having it hard, that's true, but I think a double agent caught between two worlds has a particularly nasty job of compartmentalizing with huge proficiency and also having a capacity to retain interactions as often as possible. Some big words there.. Whew! :D

As for Life is hard, Wear a Helmet... :rotfl:

Ah, I see what you mean, but it's exactly what I've bolded that I see as two dimensional, in that purely as written regard. If you get me.. ;) I just think the necessity of seeing and understanding his character must come from more than canonical explanation in some cases. We know nothing about his mind, so we choose things from canon that pick up on a particular point of view. I always see where you're coming from, but I think it comes down to individual bias based on the person's own reading. It's why I adore Snape and you have reservations- quite severe ones, no offence meant. We're opposite sides of a warped scale, and that's why this thread is on version 9! :lol:

It is all right, you can be plain; I have no severe reservations. I detest Snape's character (although I didn't used to prior to doing all of this careful analysis.) I am not offended by the truth, so it is fine to say. To be honest, I don't often venture beyond the canon to try to explain Snape for myself; however, I have discussed other's ideas in that regard and I respect their views, but consider it all speculative in nature.

Regarding everyone having it hard, that's true, but I think a double agent caught between two worlds has a particularly nasty job of compartmentalizing with huge proficiency and also having a capacity to retain interactions as often as possible. Some big words there.. Whew! :D


Well I respect your view, but again, I refuse to place Snape on a pedestal of mourning. Kingsley was also acting as a spy, a double agent in that he had to lie, work covertly and take a lot of personal hits due to his position. Recall his being hit by the same spell as the others trying to arrest Dumbledore, to the elder wizard's regret. Recall his meeting with Dumbledore in secret on Order business when that society as well as Dumbledore were outlawed. Recall his duplicity on the job in heading the hunt for Sirius, a fellow Order member who he protected instead - but he had to make it look good.

The distinction to me is that Kingsley was not an embittered, vindictive man at heart. So to me, it was Snape's inherent nature which made his position tougher than it already was (because I am not saying it would be easy; like Kingsleys, it would be tough.) All the compartmentalizing he did was doubled, imo, as much of his problem lay in personal matters having nothing to do with his work as a spy, imo. So I see no reason to cop Snape a break in this regard at all.

I do understand that some readers are simply more sympathetic and willing to forgive even extremely atrocious behavior of a fictional character. But I don't fall into that category of persons. My all time hero, Darth Vader is beloved by me precisely because he was a horrible, evil, disgusting villain and he never attempted to say otherwise. Darth's motto is "Lately I only watch those die I can't reach to kill before my troopers do, otherwise I kill them myself and watch them die" :lol:. So understand that I can appreciate a great villain; but only in light of not trying to justify or excuse and thus forgive their horrible behavior. Snape's character begs for that forgiveness, imo, and I am thoroughly unwilling to give it because I don't feel he did anything at all that places him in a position to deserve it.

The distinction to me is that Kingsley was not an embittered, vindictive man at heart. So to me, it was Snape's inherent nature which made his position tougher than it already was (because I am not saying it would be easy; like Kingsleys, it would be tough.) All the compartmentalizing he did was doubled, imo, as much of his problem lay in personal matters having nothing to do with his work as a spy, imo. So I see no reason to cop Snape a break in this regard at all.

I think you're also missing the huge distinction of who Kingsley was spying for. There is a large difference between a corrupt government agencies and what is essentially a cult that is indiscriminent about torturing/killing its members. There is a lot more stress from Severus' point of view, there.

So understand that I can appreciate a great villain; but only in light of not trying to justify or excuse and thus forgive their horrible behavior. Snape's character begs for that forgiveness, imo, and I am thoroughly unwilling to give it because I don't feel he did anything at all that places him in a position to deserve it.

Perhaps Severus' character 'begs' for that forgivness because he, unlike Darth Vader, went about and did something good before his death. Personally, I would find it a very sad world where you are judged soley for your past, and no one looks to see what you do later on in your life to make up for it.

Besides, we don't see Severus going out and leading an army for control of the universe. That is more analigous to Voldemort. I don't think Severus' vices measure up to those of Darth Vader. Severus isn't really a villian-- he may be an antagonist from Harry's point of view, but he is neither evil nor villianous.

*facepalm* I love that, in trying to explain the meaning of some obscure word, you manage to use two even more obscure words. :lol:

:lol:. Sorry. Well spiteful is good enough for our purposes.

What? I'm sure you didn't mean this, but the way you phrased this sentence you imply that, had his motivation to 'bully' and 'be sarcastic' been because of a happy childhood or other such 'good' things that his later actions would be deemed good.

Nah, I just meant after finishing the series, my ideas about the nature of his motivation and intent had not changed to make them seem more acceptable to me.

Also, could you provide examples of Severus' arrogance (along with those instances of him patting himself on the back, that you've still not shown me)? Everything I read has shown him to rather humble, all circumstances considered.

Frankly, I see that in a whole lot of his behavior, but I think we might just interpret him distinctly in that regard. For example his treatment of Harry on day 1, when he discovered the map, in the shrieking shack, with Lupin in POA, with Sirius in OOTP, with Dumbledore in DH, with Lockheart in CoS, with Quirrell in PS/SS, in HBP with Harry in the classroom, at detention, and while escaping after killing Dumbledore. With McGonagall and Dumbledore over the flying car incident; with the Minister in POA - and at many other times as well. But there are a few examples of what I am speaking about. Perhaps you see him as humble in those situations, but I see extreme arrogance. He patted himself on the back in my view, in many of those same scenes. So I respect your interpretation if you see it distinctly, but that is simply my impression of him from the reading. :)

I would never think of Severus as a perfect character. Everyone from the Potterverse has their negative traits-- I don't see why when it comes to Severus we have to keep on the obvious 'he's grumpy, he's sarcastic, he's bitter' and not see all the good he did despite this. :/

I don't consider being cruel to, and bullying children to be a minor character flaw - nor other of Snape's attributes. To me, Snape had irredeemable, huge flaws and 'the good' he did is very vague and tentative - generally extinguished or at best blighted by his own behavior and actions, imo.

I think you're also missing the huge distinction of who Kingsley was spying for. There is a large difference between a corrupt government agencies and what is essentially a cult that is indiscriminent about torturing/killing its members. There is a lot more stress from Severus' point of view, there.

No, I did take that into consideration. As I said, both jobs were tough and in differing ways. You pinpointed what made it tough for Snape, imo. But I think you are dimissing the risk Kingsley was taking. Recall what that corrupt government did to the powerful Dumbledore when they didn't want him around anymore. If you move against them; especially covertly, they search, sneak and frame you and then tear you down - ending in a sweet arrest and your immediate departure for Azkaban. So the consequences were equally horrible, imo.

Perhaps Severus' character 'begs' for that forgivness because he, unlike Darth Vader, went about and did something good before his death. Personally, I would find it a very sad world where you are judged soley for your past, and no one looks to see what you do later on in your life to make up for it.

Besides, we don't see Severus going out and leading an army for control of the universe. That is more analigous to Voldemort. I don't think Severus' vices measure up to those of Darth Vader. Severus isn't really a villian-- he may be an antagonist from Harry's point of view, but he is neither evil nor villianous.

Oh I agree, a better comparison is to be had between Darth Vader and Voldemort. Darth was an evil leader bent on destruction. I was only using him to show that I don't have anything against villains per se. I do see Snape as a villain, but a subordinate one (to Voldemort/Dumbledore) and purportedly acting on behalf of the good side - so a villain that was not supposed to be a villain. :lol:

I don't consider being cruel to, and bullying children to be a minor character flaw - nor other of Snape's attributes. To me, Snape had irredeemable, huge flaws and 'the good' he did is very vague and tentative - generally extinguished or at best blighted by his own behavior and actions, imo.

I suppose it is just the way we look at things. To me, if even the most bitter person saved my (or anyone elses) life I would probably have to look at them in a new light. I may not like them, but I think that would deserve some respect.

And I tend to think of Severus as traveling a very fine line between being strict and actually being cruel. There are very few times I would actually say that Severus was cruel to any of his students, but I'm not denying that those times were present.

As for patting himself on the back, I think that would also be just the way we view things. I don't see how Severus asking for Harry and Ron's expulsion after they broke rules has any affect on his arrogance or even lack thereof. I mean, he wasn't as if he tried telling Albus that they should be expelled because he (Severus) knew better. In fact, Severus gave into Albus and respected his authority-- albeit not agreeing with the decition. The same can be said of many of those other times you mentioned.

The only one I think I may be able to agree with was the Minister in PoA-- when he learned he has lost his Order of Merlin, correct? But we must remember that, at this time, he not only lost the Order of Merlin but has learned that Sirius excaped-- and at this point I'm not certain he was entirly convinced that Sirius really was innocent. It wasn't until later that he comes back and grudingly shakes hands with Sirius, and finally admits to his past mistake in believing Sirius to have betrayed Lily.

I suppose it is just the way we look at things. To me, if even the most bitter person saved my (or anyone elses) life I would probably have to look at them in a new light. I may not like them, but I think that would deserve some respect.

Yeah, which is exactly what Snape does not do in the case where James saved his life. How am I supposed to appreciate a person that can't find a minimum of respect for the most obvious things? So that is my point of view. You know, I love the idea of Harry's parents solely because he did in the series. I fell hook line and sinker for his deep desire and feeling of loss in that regard. But I have no fan based reason to like his parents apart from that. So in this situation, James could represent "anybody" - it doesn't matter. Let's call him Kajo - and if Kajo saved Snape's life, he should have respect for that as you have indicated - no rationale's involved unless Kajo was actually trying to kill him and saved him by mistake. :lol:.

And I tend to think of Severus as traveling a very fine line between being strict and actually being cruel. There are very few times I would actually say that Severus was cruel to any of his students, but I'm not denying that those times were present.

Well as you pointed out, we just saw this distinctly based on our interpretations. :)

Yeah, which is exactly what Snape does not do in the case where James saved his life. How am I supposed to appreciate a person that can't find a minimum of respect for the most obvious things?

But you have to admit that Severus was not at all convinced that James even saved his life to protect him so much as to keep his friends safe. :/ It is rather a complicated issue, and in the end it doesn't matter what James actually intended, but what Severus felt he intended.

Looking from Severus' point of view, that James participates in SWM shortly after saving his life sends a message that tells him that James might not have cared what happened to Severus if anyone else had sent him down there, or if anyone else had been at the end of the tunnel. Whether this is true or not, it isn't hard to believe that Severus could or would come to this conclution. So, in that respect, I can't entirly blame him for not being too terribly grateful to James. Particularly since James gets to play up a humble hero aspect-- Lily will know that he saved Severus' life, but wouldn't know the circumstances behind it (or Sirius' involvement-- I can't see her being okay with him as a friend of James or as Harry's godfather if she knew) and James gets to look humble because Dumbeldore prohibited him from speaking about it. Which I see as a double slap in the face for Severus.

But you have to admit that Severus was not at all convinced that James even saved his life to protect him so much as to keep his friends safe. :/ It is rather a complicated issue, and in the end it doesn't matter what James actually intended, but what Severus felt he intended.

Looking from Severus' point of view, that James participates in SWM shortly after saving his life sends a message that tells him that James might not have cared what happened to Severus if anyone else had sent him down there, or if anyone else had been at the end of the tunnel. Whether this is true or not, it isn't hard to believe that Severus could or would come to this conclution. So, in that respect, I can't entirly blame him for not being too terribly grateful to James. Particularly since James gets to play up a humble hero aspect-- Lily will know that he saved Severus' life, but wouldn't know the circumstances behind it (or Sirius' involvement-- I can't see her being okay with him as a friend of James or as Harry's godfather if she knew) and James gets to look humble because Dumbeldore prohibited him from speaking about it. Which I see as a double slap in the face for Severus.

Well from that point of view, then James should have just let him die. But that isn't workable either is it? So James is suddenly in the position of being unable to make ANY choice at all. Do or Don't, his reputation dies either way (from Snape's point of view). It is that which makes Snape's view untenable and ridiculous to me.

Well from that point of view, then James should have just let him die. But that isn't workable either is it? So James is suddenly in the position of being unable to make ANY choice at all. Do or Don't, his reputation dies either way (from Snape's point of view). It is that which makes Snape's view untenable and ridiculous to me.

I did say it was complicated. :lol: And in some ways, it is a little unfair to James. Yet, in another way, it was his choice to participate in SWM and further push Severus into believing that his life means nothing to James. The infamous line of 'he exists' as a reason to attack him also drives home this message.

So while I do think Severus was taking this interpretation to an extreme, I can't say I blame him. If the same thing were to happen to me, I might question whether 'Kajo' really cared about what happened to me, or whether my safety was just the means he used to save his best friends.

I did say it was complicated. :lol: And in some ways, it is a little unfair to James. Yet, in another way, it was his choice to participate in SWM and further push Severus into believing that his life means nothing to James. The infamous line of 'he exists' as a reason to attack him also drives home this message.

So while I do think Severus was taking this interpretation to an extreme, I can't say I blame him. If the same thing were to happen to me, I might question whether 'Kajo' really cared about what happened to me, or whether my safety was just the means he used to save his best friends.

But my point (although I agree with you completely about what Snape was thinking) is that it doesn't matter. James didn't see Snape as completely lost to the dark arts, Snape wasn't officially a Death Eater. And so he was moved to save him, just as he went on to be an order member and was moved to save many people - most of whom he likely didn't know. It was his nature. It was Snape who was of the belief that watching people die was fine if you hate them, and that is why he took that stance about James. I mean think about it, Snape is the one with the problem trying to figure out why James would possibly save his life - he is amazed, shocked, and it is contrary to everything he thinks about James (which is all totally horrible). So he has to fish around for some reason that makes sense to him. That to me says that in the reverse situation, Snape would have let James die unless there was some pressing reason for him not to do so (for example if Lily were going to come to harm as a result.)

This is shown clearly through Harry. He saved Draco because he realized he was redeemable still; he was not a loyal death eater as he had betrayed the Death Eater cause right before Harry's eyes. However, Harry stood and watched while Voldemort killed Snape - who was not redeemable to him at that point - he was a loyal Death Eater. Imagine if it had been Hermione in Snape's shoes with Voldemort threatening to kill her - Harry would have acted so fast, our eyes would blur from reading his movements on the page :lol:. But Snape seeing Harry's action, would reduce his act to saving Draco in order to 'save his own skin' by having gotten into it with his enemies in the ROR and things went wrong. Or in order to save Rowena's reputation, or to save Dumbledore's reputation - or his friend's and his reputation for allowing people to die they could have tried to save - or any reason except that Harry simply didn't want Draco to die.

Well James didn't want Snape to die either. In my view, that is why Dumbledore said he believed Snape felt indebted to James. Because deep down, Snape knew that James had acted to save his life for no other reason than to save his life at the roots of the deal. And for Snape it was even more evident because he thought James was in on the plan - which means James would have literally had to change his mind about allowing Snape to die - but had at one time thought it was a grand idea (or that he'd come to harm or be scared to death or whatever and it would be worth the risk of something bad happening.) But Snape refuses to see anything at all good in the act. Even after he found out the truth, did he apologize to Harry for his overly harsh condemnation based on his misconstruction? No. As a matter of fact, he likely still thought James saved him only because of his friends, even though he wasn't in on it - but deep down he knew the truth. Everyone wasn't thinking like Snape; some people indeed don't watch those die they can save, even from a very early age and even if the person is their enemy (unless a total evil individual without an ounce of redemptive potential).

It was Snape who was of the belief that watching people die was fine if you hate them, and that is why he took that stance about James. I mean think about it, Snape is the one with the problem trying to figure out why James would possibly save his life - he is amazed, shocked, and it is contrary to everything he thinks about James (which is all totally horrible). So he has to fish around for some reason that makes sense to him. That to me says that in the reverse situation, Snape would have let James die unless there was some pressing reason for him not to do so (for example if Lily were going to come to harm as a result.)


I believe the real quote was that Severus only allowed those he couldn't save to die, not those he didn't like. ;)

And, considering Severus came from Slytherin House, where a majority of the people wouldn't save him if it didn't serve a greater purpose for them, it seems logical that this would be the way Severus thinks about this situation at the time. Rememer, Severus is still just a teenager at this point, so to expect him to realize that he is looking for a reason to distrust James motives seems a bit much-- particularly when it that reason for him to distrust James' motives practically comes out and greets him. It isn't until much later that Severus has had time to mature and start to look at his life from a more objective standpoint.

Snape it was even more evident because he thought James was in on the plan - which means James would have literally had to change his mind about allowing Snape to die - but had at one time thought it was a grand idea (or that he'd come to harm or be scared to death or whatever and it would be worth the risk of something bad happening.)

Well, I believe what we are told in canon is that Severus assumed that James 'got cold feet' later on and decided it wasn't worth the risk to Remus or Sirius-- not that James decided it was a bad idea for Severus.

Even more - Snape believed James was in on the planning:

"I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you -- your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts."

Ah, thanks for the quote Zara!

"I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you -- your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts."

[italics/colors mine] Here we see that Severus believed that James only tried to save Severus because it meant saving his and his friends skin, not because he thought it meant Severus was worth saving.

I believe the real quote was that Severus only allowed those he couldn't save to die, not those he didn't like. ;)

And, considering Severus came from Slytherin House, where a majority of the people wouldn't save him if it didn't serve a greater purpose for them, it seems logical that this would be the way Severus thinks about this situation at the time. Rememer, Severus is still just a teenager at this point, so to expect him to realize that he is looking for a reason to distrust James motives seems a bit much-- particularly when it that reason for him to distrust James' motives practically comes out and greets him. It isn't until much later that Severus has had time to mature and start to look at his life from a more objective standpoint.

Well I said a post or so back that I agree with your take on Snape's reasoning and ideas. I was just explaining why he was looking at it 'blindly'.

Well, I believe what we are told in canon is that Severus assumed that James 'got cold feet' later on and decided it wasn't worth the risk to Remus or Sirius-- not that James decided it was a bad idea for Severus.

This was what Snape thought, I agree. The point is not what James was thinking, the point is what James did. That is what Snape failed to acknowledge, imo. Draco didn't care why Harry saved him, he was just happy not to be swallowed up by fiendfyre. :lol:. So from the "other guy's" perspective (Snape here), he needs to simply be grateful that he was rescued, by anyone and for any reason - because the alternative was that he would be harmed or dead. If Snape would have rather that James did not save him and he ended up harmed or dead, then he was being unreasonable, imo. So we are back at the same crossroads - in Snape's view - and it makes no sense: James either acts and is a despot for doing so, or he does not act and is a despot for doing so. James is out of choices; whether he acts or does not act, he will have done the wrong thing.

Well I said a post or so back that I agree with your take on Snape's reasoning and ideas. I was just explaining why he was looking at it 'blindly'.

I agree with this, and I think you can argue that because he felt 'indebted to James' (according to Albus) that Severus does aknowledge James' good deed in saving his life.

However, I do believe that motivation does (and should) play a very big part in how you react in a situation like that. One of your original examples was when someone was trying to kill you, but accidentally saved your life. Should you then feel grateful to them? By your logic, yes you should. And maybe you do, but you aren't going to show it in the same way you would when confronted by someone who saved your life because they actually cared about what happened to you.

For Severus, to start acting differently towards James (especially when James doesn't act any differently towards Severus) would be incredibally awkward, imho. And we already know that teenaged Snape was gangely and awkard in general, he doesn't need anything else to add to that! :lol:

I agree with this, and I think you can argue that because he felt 'indebted to James' (according to Albus) that Severus does aknowledge James' good deed in saving his life.

However, I do believe that motivation does (and should) play a very big part in how you react in a situation like that. One of your original examples was when someone was trying to kill you, but accidentally saved your life. Should you then feel grateful to them? By your logic, yes you should. And maybe you do, but you aren't going to show it in the same way you would when confronted by someone who saved your life because they actually cared about what happened to you.

No, in that case there is no cause for gratefulness; the person trying to kill you should go to jail. :lol:. Snape didn't accuse James of this however; at the point of saving him, Snape believed his motive was to actually to save him and not to kill him - he was simply moving beyond that to the "why" in order to find some fault.

For Severus, to start acting differently towards James (especially when James doesn't act any differently towards Severus) would be incredibally awkward, imho. And we already know that teenaged Snape was gangely and awkard in general, he doesn't need anything else to add to that! :lol:

Well I agree and I wouldn't expect him to act differently toward James. I would however expect him to be grateful for the act (which he did acknowledge) and as such say nothing about the motives which he cannot know unless he is psychic which he was not. To me, the portion you highlighted is not important at all because that was conjured up by Snape. Here is the the part that is important, imo:

"I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you"

Saying this with a "terrible grin" is behaving in a despicable manner, imo. Snape decides, quite arbitrarily that he has the right of it - as if he somehow knows James inner thoughts, motivations and intentions. Imo, the mere fact that he acknowledges the 'goodness of the act' - saving him - occurred, but refuses to acknowledge it as a good act, shows that he lacks the requisite respect for James saving his life and is impugning him for that same act.

Again - what would Snape have to say if Harry responded: "Gosh, you are quite right, Snape, my dad should have just let you die because his motive for saving you sucked."

Well that was the lesson Snape was teaching. Luckily, Harry understood his father better than Snape, imo, and did not take away the lesson that one allows their enemies to die merely because they don't have any "good" reason they can think up to save them (other than that they are not evil incarnate). Let us not forget that James risked his life saving Snape - something Snape doesn't acknowledge at all.

No, in that case there is no cause for gratefulness; the person trying to kill you should go to jail. :lol:. Snape didn't accuse James of this however; at the point of saving him, Snape believed his motive was to actually to save him and not to kill him - he was simply moving beyond that to the "why" in order to find some fault.

But along with saving him, you have to question why he wants saving. Severus concludes that it isn't to actually help him, but to help James, Remus, Lupin-- so he doesn't see any reason to really be grateful, just as you may not bee too grateful if someone accidentally saved your life. In the end the motive of helping you specifically is missing-- why should you feel terribly gratefull for that?

Well I agree and I wouldn't expect him to act differently toward James. I would however expect him to be grateful for the act (which he did acknowledge) and as such say nothing about the motives which he cannot know unless he is psychic which is was not. To me, the portion you highlighted is not important at all because that was conjured up by Snape. Here is the the part that is important, imo:

He can't know the motives for sure, but he can take a pretty good guess from James' later actions. (SWM in particular) It would take someone who was particularlly motivated to remain unbiased to ignore that. Very few people would actually be able to ignore that.

Again - what would Snape have to say if Harry responded: "Gosh, you are quite right, Snape, my dad should have just let you die because his motive for saving you sucked."

I believe Severus' emphasis was not on the fact that James had terrible motives for saving Severus, but rather that James was the reason Severus needed saving in the first place.

But along with saving him, you have to question why he wants saving. Severus concludes that it isn't to actually help him, but to help James, Remus, Lupin-- so he doesn't see any reason to really be grateful, just as you may not bee too grateful if someone accidentally saved your life. In the end the motive of helping you specifically is missing-- why should you feel terribly gratefull for that?

It wasn't accidental and James risked his own life doing it too. Snape was irrationally ungrateful in this situation under the circumstances, imo. He didn't have to be grateful for James' motivation, he only had to be grateful for the act. Snape's only concern should have been that he got out alive and unharmed and that was due to James, imo.

I mean if you help an elderly person cross the street, they don't turn to you and ask why you did it. They don't accuse you of helping because there is a cute girl standing around that you might have been trying to impress instead of your motive being to help them. They are grateful for the good turn - period. They thank you and go on their way. Motive is irrelevant to being grateful for a good turn and usually unquestioned unless someone is in a court of law - and you only get dragged into a court of law if you break the law, not for keeping it or doing someone a good turn. In any case, Snape's whole thought train was highly hypocritical since his motivations were entirely suspect at all times, imo. That is exactly why I feel he suspected the motives of others. It is like my view of Snape: he spied on Voldemort for Lily, not because he believed in the cause; but that doesn't elminate the fact that he did it. I've always said it was brave and hard to do and I might not like his motivation, but that is an entirely different consideration, imo. I still have to acknowledge he did the spying and recognize that as an admirable act, no matter why he did it.

He can't know the motives for sure, but he can take a pretty good guess from James' later actions. (SWM in particular) It would take someone who was particularlly motivated to remain unbiased to ignore that. Very few people would actually be able to ignore that.

He was talking this stuff prior to SWM in the memory with Lily, so that wasn't the reason either, imo. And furthermore, Snape was no saint toward James, yet James saved his life (risking his own) - if Snape couldn't see anything to be grateful for in that, then he was staring at the situation blindly, imo.

I believe Severus' emphasis was not on the fact that James had terrible motives for saving Severus, but rather that James was the reason Severus needed saving in the first place.

And as it turned out, he was wrong about that too. That is precisely why I feel he ought to have kept his mouth shut. He didn't know the truth of the circumstances; nor the truth of James' motivations. He made it all up in his head (or "guessed" as you put it) and then relayed it as if it were the "facts" of the matter. In my judgment, that was entirely wrong for him to have done and he was behaving in a cruel and vindictive manner when he relayed it to Harry. That fact is confirmed, imo, because he didn't even bother to tell Harry the entire truth as he knew it (that he suspected Lupin was a werewolf) because it would make him look bad. And also because of the language used to describe his behavior (the usual smirks and snide stuff.) Snape was attempting to make himself appear the poor victim of circumstance and the Marauders look like attempted murderers, imo. Snape knew he was not speaking in facts, but no moderator was present to remind him to state that what he was saying was his opinion and speculation. :lol:.

It wasn't accidental and James risked his own life doing it too. Snape was irrationally ungrateful in this situation under the circumstances, imo. He didn't have to be grateful for James' motivation, he only had to be grateful for the act. Snape's only concern should have been that he got out alive and unharmed and that was due to James, imo.


I agree with you on this to an extent, but in the general sense I'm not seeing how James life was at risk. He could have transformed and been quite safe, as he always had been, with Remus at that time, or he could have run away too, while transformed. Being realistic, he had no fear of Remus- he proved that every month. What he had a fear of, was Snape dying as a result of a joke the marauders played. He feared guilt and trouble, not Snape being dead in the real sense. As James said himself, he hated Snape, for no good reason other than that he existed-(SWM).

In any case, Snape's whole thought train was highly hypocritical since his motivations were entirely suspect at all times, imo. That is exactly why I feel he suspected the motives of others. It is like my view of Snape: he spied on Voldemort for Lily, not because he believed in the cause; but that doesn't elminate the fact that he did it. I've always said it was brave and hard to do and I might not like his motivation, but that is an entirely different consideration, imo. I still have to acknowledge he did the spying and recognize that as an admirable act, no matter why he did it.


His motivations were suspect only because we didn't know what they were. He always strove for the same cause, the same thing, that never ever changed. We just did not know this. He was paranoid, yes, for sure. He hated James and the marauders, yes, for sure. I do think he believed in the cause, else he would not have gone to such extremes with it. He never had to promise Dumbledore anything for events following his death- Snape could have defected- and though he would have fulfilled his promise until the point Dumbledore died, he was driven to finish it out. I don't agree that he didn't believe in the overall cause. There must have been something there. I think he learned a tough lesson and had a change of mind set.

He was talking this stuff prior to SWM in the memory with Lily, so that wasn't the reason either, imo. And furthermore, Snape was no saint toward James, yet James saved his life (risking his own) - if Snape couldn't see anything to be grateful for in that, then he was staring at the situation blindly, imo.

I think the last thing he wanted was to thank the man he resented so much. It takes a big person to acknowledge that, and Snape's frame of mind made him see it as I see it. James saved his life out of necessity. I cannot see that any other way. I don't think it qualifies as an honourable thing for James to have done- it was what he had to do, there was no choice.

:tu: great posts!!

He was paranoid, yes, for sure.

There is a old saying 'your only paranoid if they're not out to get you' - I'm really not sure that that applies to Snape!

As a child the marauders were out to get him, as an adult a lot of people were and more would have been if they knew what he was actually up to! So I tend to think he was not really being paranoid - just rather realistic and cautious! (& who can blame him for that?)

Other that Duckie I think your spot on :)

There is a old saying 'your only paranoid if they're not out to get you' - I'm really not sure that that applies to Snape!

You don't think he was even a little bit fixated on some things? I mean, I don't really see it as a bad thing. I reckon he was just, as a result of being a double agent, confined to thinking things through to huge heights of logic and aversion. I just always figured he would be constantly looking over his shoulder. I know I would have been!

But, as you say, I could be entirely wrong! That's the best thing about this thread! :D

:relax:

Oh he certainly could get fixated on certain things (or people), and one could call him an obsesive little puppy at times :lol: but I don't think paranoid fits, but that jmho :)