Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

I also agree Snape was shocked and perhaps even a bit dismayed to discover what Dumbledore had been doing relative to Harry. But 10 minutes later (or less), Snape adopted Dumbledore's plan that he'd been dismayed at. So I think it was more shock of understanding Dumbledore than at the plan itself. He accepted Harry had to die calmy. In my opinion, he couldn't care less - just as he hadn't back when the Potters were targeted. Harry wasn't the Potter that Snape cared about, I felt he made that clear - the one he cared about was already dead. But he did retain jealousy relative to James and Lily's love for one another - and for Potter as a representative of that love according to JKR. So in my view, as vindictive as Snape showed himself to be at times, I feel a part of him found satisfaction that Potter's progeny (all signs that Lily loved another man) would be wiped off the earth.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. :) Personally I see no evidence from canon that Snape the 38 year old ex-Death Eater (as distinct from Snape the 21 year old paid up Death Eater) felt any such satisfaction. Nor do I see any pleasure from him in the prospect of Harry's impending death, or any pleasure in delivering that final, grim message to Harry.

I respect your opinion on this, but I disagree. Sirius didn't just "wish someone harm, injury or death", he actively planned and set up a situation where another student (Snape) could have been injured or killed. Also, Sirius set up his friend as the weapon, while Lupin had no way of knowing what he was doing. Imo. But, yes, Snape shouldn't have listened to him.

What did Sirius plan? Remus was in the shack and he told Snape how to stop the tree. Sirius basically told Snape: "go jump off a cliff". There is simply no other way I can look at this. Snape knew it was a dangerous place - the whole student body knew. They were all told to stay away. We also know that Snape was pretty sure what the danger was.

So here is what I got: Sirius is Snape's dire #1 enemy; he tells Snape how to turn off the defense so that he can go into a known dangerous place. Snape takes the advise of his enemy, breaks the administrative rules of the school, goes to the forbidden dangerous place, and sees the werewolf as he expected.

Snape then called Sirius an "attempted murderer" - when the truth of the matter as I saw it was that Snape had attempted suicide.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. :) Personally I see no evidence from canon that Snape the 38 year old ex-Death Eater (as distinct from Snape the 21 year old paid up Death Eater) felt any such satisfaction. Nor do I see any pleasure from him in the prospect of Harry's impending death, or any pleasure in delivering that final, grim message to Harry.

I don't think he sat rubbing his hands together in delight. I am talking about vindictive satisfaction for wiping out the legacy of the man he felt robbed him blind. Snape mistreated Harry miserably for that very reason, vindictively getting pleasure from it, imo. Snape was the only person in canon who Dumbledore could depend on to tell Harry the message that he had to die, imo.

Dumbledore loved Harry enough to have given that task to someone like Molly, who would pass it along with love and kindness, empathy and sympathy, etc. Do you think Dumbledore believed Snape would deliver the messge and behave that way? I don't, but Dumbledore didn't have a choice. The problem was, nobody in canon except Snape would go along with such a dastardly plan, imo. That is because Snape loathed Harry - and that doesn't mean he wanted to see him die, but since Harry had to die, I feel Snape believed there was no use crying over spilled milk - especially when it is spoiled milk in the form of the "representative" of Lily's love for another man.

Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree - that is just my own reading of Snape's character and the way I interpret his scene with Dumbledore when he found out the news and then agreed to assist the elderly wizard.

Snape did not truely know what was there, Sirius did know. Sirius set up a situation knowing a student could be injured or killed by his actions.


Snape then called Sirius an "attempted murderer" - when the truth of the matter as I saw it was that Snape had attempted suicide.

I'm sorry but I find that highly offensive. That you suggest a person who sets up a situation where a person's life is threatened, knowingly possibly tried to kill another (attempted manslaughter) is somehow the victim trying to commit suicide!

What did Sirius plan?

In POA Sirius said it served Snape right; so I'd presume, that Sirius was probably sending Snape to a place where he'd get what Sirius thought Snape deserved. To be bitten or even dead. Just because Snape had suspicions about the monster inside, it does not take away Sirius's intent to harm Snape. Sirius wanted to harm Snape and he felt Snape deserved to be harmed, because that's what he says 20 years later. There is no remorse or repentence for an act which would have killed or cursed another boy in the most harmful manner IMO.

I respect your opinion on this, but I disagree. Sirius didn't just "wish someone harm, injury or death", he actively planned and set up a situation where another student (Snape) could have been injured or killed. Also, Sirius set up his friend as the weapon, while Lupin had no way of knowing what he was doing. Imo. But, yes, Snape shouldn't have listened to him.

I am with you on this Annie.

Severus suspected that Lupin was a werewolf and that by going into the tunnel he would obtain proof of his suspicions. He had no knowledge of what was beyond the entrance to the tunnel. However he had reason to believe that it was safe to go into the tunnel because he saw the Marauders sneaking off. His suspicions that the other Marauders joined Lupin in his monthly exile were then confirmed by Sirius because Sirius knew how to get past the Whomping Willow and into the tunnel. So while Severus suspects that Lupin is a werewolf there is nothing to indicate to him that it is unsafe for him to enter the tunnel under the Willow. The other Marauders are only able to join Lupin at the full moon because they are animagi a fact that Severus is unaware of. In other words Severus actually had reason to beleive that it was safe for a human to enter the tunnel. When Sirius gave Severus the information regarding the Willow he knew how Severus would use that information but failed to warn him of the dangers. As such I would suspect if Severus had been harmed, that in the real world Sirius's action might mean that he would have a case to answer to in court on the charge of manslaughter, because he knew someone was going to put themselves in mortal peril, but failed to tell them so. However in the wizarding world they are less Health and safety conscious. I do not believe that Severus is correct when he calls what Sirius did attempted murder - I personally don't beleive that Sirius wanted to kill Severus - just give him the shock of his life! But Sirius hadn't though it through properly and the consequences could have been dire for all concerned had it not been for James.

Severus might have been foolish for using information given him by an enemy,

Sirius however shows himself to be monumentally stupid for endangering the life of Severus, and putting his friend at risk of exposure as a werewolf and turning him into a killer. Don't get me wrong - I adore Sirius, but he doesn't think things through and in this case he was definitely in the wrong.

I'm sorry but I find that highly offensive.

So do I! It is also highly illogical!

If murder requires intent then suicide certainly does, and Severus had no intention of killing himself!

There is no remorse or repentence for an act which would have killed or cursed another boy in the most harmful manner IMO.Good point! It also shows that Severus is not the only one holding onto a schoolboy grudge. However in Severus's case we know that the grudge is more about Lily than the bullying.

Snape then called Sirius an "attempted murderer" - when the truth of the matter as I saw it was that Snape had attempted suicide.
I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion. As far as I know, there is no evidence in the canon that even suggests this.

Snape did not truely know what was there, Sirius did know. Sirius set up a situation knowing a student could be injured or killed by his actions.

Snape knew there was a danger, everyone knew. So dangerous that the school had placed a dangerous tree in front of it to keep students out. One boy had his finger taken off by that tree. The school meant business, and they not only made a rule that kids were to keep away - but also defended the place for extra protection. Snape knew this. He also suspected Lupin was a werewolf - but that does not matter because even if it wasn't a werewolf, he knew whatever it was, it was very dangerous.

I'm sorry but I find that highly offensive. That you suggest a person who sets up a situation where a person's life is threatened, knowingly tried to kill another (attempted manslaughter) is somehow the victim trying to commit suicide!

Well we can agree to disagree because I do not mean for my opinion to offend you. It is just when people use terms like murder or attempted manslaughter, it triggers rules in my head and Sirius does not meet them. However, Snape walking into danger smacks of a suicide mission in order to expose his enemies to me. How did he plan to escape whatever danger he found there?

As for Sirius, he was morally wrong, behaved like an ingrate instead of a friend to Remus and was disregarding of James too when he went to save Snape (in not electing to risk his own life and face the danger since he'd been involved and James hadn't). So yeah, he is not looking good here by any means, it is just that he was not an attempted murderer.

I don't think he sat rubbing his hands together in delight. I am talking about vindictive satisfaction for wiping out the legacy of the man he felt robbed him blind. Snape mistreated Harry miserably for that very reason, vindictively getting pleasure from it, imo.

My problem with this is that there is absolutely nothing in the text to indicate any vindictive satisfaction on Snape's part in the Potter dynasty ending with Harry's death. Of course I'm not denying Snape's ancient and bitter grudge against James, that is right there in the whole series. Nor am I denying his wrongful treatment of Harry on that account. But this specific point, of feeling a vindictive satisfaction in wiping out James's legacy, is simply not there in the narrative. Nor do I feel, with all due respect, that it is even hinted at.

If Snape felt that spiteful towards Harry (a boy he knew had to die), surely he would have been able to spit some final, hateful words at Harry as he lay dying in the Shack (no previous crisis had ever stopped him from being nasty to Harry, after all :whistle: ). But he does nothing of the sort.

Just my interpretation, of course. :)

The problem was, nobody in canon except Snape would go along with such a dastardly plan, imo.

Well, the peculiarity of Potterverse ethics is that nobody else seemed to regard Dumbledore's Master Plan of sacrificing Harry as 'dastardly': not even Harry himself, although he certainly felt it as a betrayal. 'Resurrection' James and Lily don't apparently feel it is dastardly either. :whistle: But that is a subject for another thread.

Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree.

:tu: Indeed. :)

So do I! It is also highly illogical!

If murder requires intent then suicide certainly does, and Severus had no intention of killing himself!



Exactly!

The same kind of thing for a suicide mission, a person has to accept that what they're doing is more than likely going to get them killed.


Well we can agree to disagree because I do not mean for my opinion to offend you.

I think that's best. :)



As for Sirius, he was morally wrong, behaved like an ingrate instead of a friend to Remus and was disregarding of James too when he went to save Snape (in not electing to risk his own life and face the danger since he'd been involved and James hadn't). So yeah, he is not looking good here by any means, it is just that he was not an attempted murderer.

Agreed. It is just his words 20 odd years later, where he shows no remorse for what he did to Severus or Lupin, are certainly not good as well.

My problem with this is that there is absolutely nothing in the text to indicate any vindictive satisfaction on Snape's part in the Potter dynasty ending with Harry's death. Of course I'm not denying Snape's ancient and bitter grudge against James, that is right there in the whole series. Nor am I denying his wrongful treatment of Harry on that account. But this specific point, of feeling a vindictive satisfaction in wiping out James's legacy, is simply not there in the narrative. Nor do I feel, with all due respect, that it is even hinted at.

If Snape felt that spiteful towards Harry (a boy he knew had to die), surely he would have been able to spit some final, hateful words at Harry as he lay dying in the Shack (no previous crisis had ever stopped him from being nasty to Harry, after all :whistle: ). But he does nothing of the sort.

Just my interpretation, of course. :)

Well I respect your interpretation. :)

Well, the peculiarity of Potterverse ethics is that nobody else seemed to regard Dumbledore's Master Plan of sacrificing Harry as 'dastardly': not even Harry himself, although he certainly felt it as a betrayal. 'Resurrection' James and Lily don't apparently feel it is dastardly either. :whistle: But that is a subject for another thread.

Actually I believe Harry did feel that way about the plan Snape adopted, because JKR did feel it was wrong. Here is what she said:

[Dumbledore] is a complex character. I don't see him as God. I did want that the reader would question Dumbledore's part in the whole story. We all believed that he was a kind-hearted father figure. And to a certain extent he is. But at the same time he is someone who treats people as puppets; who caries a dark secret from his past and who never told Harry the full truth. I hope that the reader will love him again in the end. But that they love him like he is, including his faults. Is Dumbledore divine? No. He has certain divine qualities though. He is merciful, and in the end he is just. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/11/19/new-interview-with-j-k-rowling-for-release-of-dutch-edition-of-deathly-hallows

So JKR felt it was wrong enough that readers would no longer love Dumbledore as a character and she hoped that they would love him again, despite his behavior (together with all the faults she gave him :whistle:). But Snape in adopting that plan and carrying the secret around for nearly two years was aiding and abetting Dumbledore in his poor behavior, imo. I think that is why Harry felt so devastated on the way to his death relative to Dumbledore and why he didn't invite him to the send off party in the forest.

Harry's loved ones knew what was going on. They would have told him to fight otherwise and he would have had to explain he was a horcrux because none of them had known that either. But they asked nothing and told him death was quick and they'd be there with him till the end - which turned out to be much longer than Harry imagined. In fact, Harry never even mentioned he was on his way to die...so...

:

I think Snape has remarkable self-control most of the time, but when he does lose it, it's, well, grand. It's possible that it was accidental magic that exploded the jar, though we'll never know for sure, of course.



Yes I can see how that could be true. We know the memory was one he didn't want Harry to see, so he would be angry that Harry went into his private memorys (it is a little like reading someones diary I suppose).

However I'm not sure I agree. We know Snape is very good at hiding his emotions, otherwise he would not be such a good occlumens, and as far as we know he did not preform accidental magic in front of Voldemort- something which would have given him away.

Snape knew there was a danger, everyone knew. So dangerous that the school had placed a dangerous tree in front of it to keep students out. One boy had his finger taken off by that tree. The school meant business, and they not only made a rule that kids were to keep away - but also defended the place for extra protection. Snape knew this. He also suspected Lupin was a werewolf - but that does not matter because even if it wasn't a werewolf, he knew whatever it was, it was very dangerous.



They knew the tree was dangerous yes, but whether they knew that it was hiding something dangerous, I don't think so. I always had the impression that the passage was made for Lupin, and the whomping willow planted so people wouldn't go down the passageway when Lupin was transformed. This means Snape wouldn't know what was down there, just that it would give him the answer to what the mauraders were up too.

Actually I believe Harry did feel that way about the plan Snape adopted, because JKR did feel it was wrong.

But it wasn't Snape's plan. It wasn't like he collaborated with Dumbledore to come up with the Master Plan to sacrifice Harry. He went along with it, sure, but that's because Dumbledore had made it plain there was no other way. Dumbledore is always calling the shots. :)

But Snape in adopting that plan and carrying the secret around for nearly two years was aiding and abetting Dumbledore in his poor behavior, imo. I think that is why Harry felt so devastated on the way to his death relative to Dumbledore and why he didn't invite him to the send off party in the forest.

Well, I can certainly understand Harry not calling forth Dumbledore through the Stone. :lol: He was still processing how he felt about Dumbledore at that point. :shrug:

Interestingly, however, he doesn't seem to blame or resent Snape for going along with the plan.

As Harry grew older, no doubt he gained a better understanding of the difficult position Snape had been in. At least, that is how I interpret the whole thing and why he felt able to name his second son after Severus. :cool:

So JKR felt it was wrong enough that readers would no longer love Dumbledore as a character and she hoped that they would love him again, despite his behavior (together with all the faults she gave him :whistle:). But Snape in adopting that plan and carrying the secret around for nearly two years was aiding and abetting Dumbledore in his poor behavior, imo.


I think JKR was banking on the fact that most people loved DD as a kindly old figure type of character, that was powerful and did the right thing. I was never in the DD fanclub prior to DH. I liked him, but I didn't get the fascination. Maybe that's why I am not shocked or betrayed by what the plan was. Did I feel horribly for Harry? Yes. I was a basket case. But I also look at this whole thing as a time of war and Harry, now an adult soldier doing his part for the good of the entire wizarding world. Should he have known that he was potentially not going to die? Maybe... but then the protection that stretched across to all of his loved ones would have not happened. I think he would figure being in the dark a bit was a good trade off for that. There was more at stake here than just Harry. And I think that is the reason JKR hoped that the readers would love him again. It was the only way to go and it worked out for Harry in the end as DD hoped that it would.

And I think Snape knew and cared that there was more at stake here than just Harry. That's what I took out of it from the moment I read it. He wasn't happy about it, but it was the only way to save everyone according to DD's plan. However, it was still up to Harry to decide whether to go through with it. I really didn't think Snape was getting any satisfaction out of it at all, and I never had that impression. I don't think going along with DD's plan suggests it all. I think it's an acknowledgment of the understanding he had that DD was setting up the right plan to save the wizarding world, even if it affected Harry/DD/Snape personally.

And I think Snape knew and cared that there was more at stake here than just Harry. That's what I took out of it from the moment I read it. He wasn't happy about it, but it was the only way to save everyone according to DD's plan. However, it was still up to Harry to decide whether to go through with it. I really didn't think Snape was getting any satisfaction out of it at all, and I never had that impression. I don't think going along with DD's plan suggests it all. I think it's an acknowledgment of the understanding he had that DD was setting up the right plan to save the wizarding world, even if it affected Harry/DD/Snape personally.

:clap: :agree:

But it wasn't Snape's plan. It wasn't like he collaborated with Dumbledore to come up with the Master Plan to sacrifice Harry. He went along with it, sure, but that's because Dumbledore had made it plain there was no other way. Dumbledore is always calling the shots. :)

Well, I can certainly understand Harry not calling forth Dumbledore through the Stone. :lol: He was still processing how he felt about Dumbledore at that point. :shrug:

Agreed, I feel he adopted it, he had nothing to do with planning it.

interestingly, however, he doesn't seem to blame or resent Snape for going along with the plan.

Harry doesn't think about Snape at all during that period. According to JKR, Harry knew that Snape loathed him, unfairly, till his death and so he would not have expected Snape to have behaved any differently, imo.

Imagine it had been Sirius that had gone along with Dumbledore's plan - don't you feel Harry would have been thinking about that? I do.

As Harry grew older, no doubt he gained a better understanding of the difficult position Snape had been in. At least, that is how I interpret the whole thing and why he felt able to name his second son after Severus. :cool:

Perhaps. In my view, Harry was able to do that because he forgave Snape - arising from his decision not to be like Snape and hold longstanding grudges. I feel Harry actually did the naming because Snape agreed to help Dumbledore specifically to ensure Lily's sacrifice was not in vain. He was honoring what Snape did on behalf of his mum. And even though Snape loathed Harry and his dad, his assistance was something they wanted also as well as Ginny and his kids. So it was thanks from the Potter family. That is my take on it - for the present anyway.

I think JKR was banking on the fact that most people loved DD as a kindly old figure type of character, that was powerful and did the right thing. I was never in the DD fanclub prior to DH. I liked him, but I didn't get the fascination. Maybe that's why I am not shocked or betrayed by what the plan was. Did I feel horribly for Harry? Yes. I was a basket case. But I also look at this whole thing as a time of war and Harry, now an adult soldier doing his part for the good of the entire wizarding world. Should he have known that he was potentially not going to die? Maybe... but then the protection that stretched across to all of his loved ones would have not happened. I think he would figure being in the dark a bit was a good trade off for that. There was more at stake here than just Harry. And I think that is the reason JKR hoped that the readers would love him again. It was the only way to go and it worked out for Harry in the end as DD hoped that it would.

It is not that I disagree with you in theory. But the way you presented it makes it sound as if there was nothing to forgive Dumbledore for because the "trade off" was worth it and "it all worked out for Harry in the end". I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so I won't assume you are saying that. But if you are, I would have to disagree. I feel Harry had to forgive Dumbledore for that - and thus, it was another thing to forgive Snape for as well. It was wrong and just because it worked out alright doesn't make it a right action, imo.

Why do you feel that it was necessary to the protection Harry's sacrifice rendered that he "not know' earlier on that he had to die so the soul piece woud be destroyed? All he had to do in order to allow for the protection to happen was be willing to sacrifice himself. Dumbledore apologized in Kings Cross for not trusting Harry with respect to that information sooner, recognizing Harry was the better man and would have done the right thing anyway. Perhaps one could justify Dumbledore not telling Harry he might be able to return - but not the part about his having to die, imo. Seems to me Dumbledore could disclose it all since he wasn't certain - Harry would have still had to sacrifice himself with the understanding that it might very well be the end.

And I think Snape knew and cared that there was more at stake here than just Harry. That's what I took out of it from the moment I read it. He wasn't happy about it, but it was the only way to save everyone according to DD's plan. However, it was still up to Harry to decide whether to go through with it. I really didn't think Snape was getting any satisfaction out of it at all, and I never had that impression. I don't think going along with DD's plan suggests it all. I think it's an acknowledgment of the understanding he had that DD was setting up the right plan to save the wizarding world, even if it affected Harry/DD/Snape personally.

Yes...satisfaction is not a good word to use because I think people understand it to mean "happy". I don't mean to say Snape was happy about it. I do believe he changed sides and as such, no longer felt innocent people should die in general.

I am speaking in terms of balance. Snape had overwhelming feelings of vindictiveness toward the Potter males and every thing that didn't go their way brought balance to Snape's need for revenge, imo. But understand that I don't feel like Snape felt Harry's death would end his need for revenge. He continued to loathe them, which to me says that even knowing all of the Potter males would be wiped off the face of the earth was not enough. His vengeful feelings were just extremely deeply ingrained and I don't think he'd of ever been able to overcome them.

You know, I would agree with the idea that Snape didn't feel that way and that his vengeance was sated - IF he had began treating Harry with a modicum of civilty after finding out that he had to die. But he didn't. He behaved in the same cruel, bullying and vindictive way he always had. I sincerely do not understand how that can be seen as Snape having the least regard for the sacrifice Harry would have to make. In as far as Snape's looking at the 'big picture', I agree - he was - and I feel he always had been looking at it because it entailed bringing down Voldemort which I feel was a goal of his from the start.

Harry doesn't think about Snape at all during that period. According to JKR, Harry knew that Snape loathed him, unfairly, till his death and so he would not have expected Snape to have behaved any differently, imo.

I believe that Harry's hatred for Snape ended when he viewed the memories.

This doesn't mean that I would have expected Harry to think about Snape during The Forest Again. :hmm:

Imagine it had been Sirius that had gone along with Dumbledore's plan - don't you feel Harry would have been thinking about that? I do.

Well, of course. That would be totally different, and much more upsetting, since Harry trusted and loved Sirius even more than he loved Dumbledore (IMO).

It is not that I disagree with you in theory. But the way you presented it makes it sound as if there was nothing to forgive Dumbledore for because the "trade off" was worth it and "it all worked out for Harry in the end". I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so I won't assume you are saying that. But if you are, I would have to disagree. I feel Harry had to forgive Dumbledore for that - and thus, it was another thing to forgive Snape for as well. It was wrong and just because it worked out alright doesn't make it a right action, imo.

I think it was a difficult thing that had to be done in order to destroy the soul piece in Harry, so there was no choice in the matter. I think it was something that Harry understood in the end-- that Dumbledore had to make difficult decisions, as did Harry... as did Snape, for the "greater good". Note, that I don't think the "greater good" is a bad thing, as it seems to be looked at around here a lot of the time. So I don't see Harry needing to forgive DD and by extension, Snape, for the plan, as much as finding some sort of understanding of them and their actions.

Why do you feel that it was necessary to the protection Harry's sacrifice rendered that he "not know' earlier on that he had to die so the soul piece woud be destroyed? All he had to do in order to allow for the protection to happen was be willing to sacrifice himself.

Because I have the impression that it may not have quite been considered a sacrifice if Harry knew that he might come out alive, and so the magic may not have happened.

Dumbledore apologized in Kings Cross for not trusting Harry with respect to that information sooner, recognizing Harry was the better man and would have done the right thing anyway. Perhaps one could justify Dumbledore not telling Harry he might be able to return - but not the part about his having to die, imo. Seems to me Dumbledore could disclose it all since he wasn't certain - Harry would have still had to sacrifice himself with the understanding that it might very well be the end.

Again, I don't know if it can be considered a sacrifice of one's life if one thinks that there is a decent chance they may come out of it alive, so I don't know if that magical protection to Harry's loved ones would have worked. I think Harry would eventually understand Dumbledore's actions... especially if he was able to look at them in a positive light, rather than truly feel betrayed... That last bit is just the impression that I have. I don't have text to support it, as it's been a while since I read the end of DH.

Yes...satisfaction is not a good word to use because I think people understand it to mean "happy". I don't mean to say Snape was happy about it. I do believe he changed sides and as such, no longer felt innocent people should die in general.

And that's part of the reason why I don't think he was OK with Harry needing to sacrifice himself... but realize it was the only way to save the other innocents of the wizarding world, and that's why he went along with the plan... and not for any vindictive reason.

I am speaking in terms of balance. Snape had overwhelming feelings of vindictiveness toward the Potter males and every thing that didn't go their way brought balance to Snape's need for revenge, imo. But understand that I don't feel like Snape felt Harry's death would end his need for revenge. He continued to loathe them, which to me says that even knowing all of the Potter males would be wiped off the face of the earth was not enough. His vengeful feelings were just extremely deeply ingrained and I don't think he'd of ever been able to overcome them.

Except that directly contradicts what you just said above. I pretty much disagree with Snape loathing Harry until the end and all that, even if JKR said it (I mention this because I've seen you post it a lot as evidence). It isn't how I felt when I read the book and I rely more on what is on page and how it read to me than anyone telling me how it was intended. So I disagree with JKR on that front and would be more than happy to argue the point with her. ;) I really disagree with the bolded sentences of the above paragraph and for the most part I don't see Snape as fueled by revenge, except briefly in the Shrieking Shack incident.

You know, I would agree with the idea that Snape didn't feel that way and that his vengeance was sated - IF he had began treating Harry with a modicum of civilty after finding out that he had to die. But he didn't. He behaved in the same cruel, bullying and vindictive way he always had. I sincerely do not understand how that can be seen as Snape having the least regard for the sacrifice Harry would have to make. In as far as Snape's looking at the 'big picture', I agree - he was - and I feel he always had been looking at it because it entailed bringing down Voldemort which I feel was a goal of his from the start.

Just because someone is mean or not nice to you doesn't mean they'd be cool with it if you died. So the school of thought above doesn't quite work for me. And I don't believe that the goal for him was bringing down Voldemort alone. I feel his goal from the moment DD brought it up was to protect Harry, even if his bitterness, guilt, pain, and self-loathing made it difficult for him to be nice to him. I think later on, bringing down Voldemort was a goal in order to protect Harry... as well as it being for the good of the rest of the wizarding world... not because of revenge for Lily's death.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree on a lot of these things. :)

I am at a loss to understand how loathing someone indicates a need for revenge against them. Where is it written that loathing someone means you want revenge on them?

Even if you agree that Severus loathed Harry, where in any of the books does it so much as hint that Severus wants revenge on Harry. Revenge for what?
The only repeat ONLY time vengeance is mentioned in connection with Severus Snape is in the shrieking shack where, to me at least, it is made quite clear that Severus wants revenge on Sirius Black because Black betrayed the Potters which resulted in Lily's death.

Severus hated Harry and treated him badly due to a whole range of motivations triggered by a vast array of emotions throughout his life. This is shown quite clearly in the books. While Severus's treatment of Harry is wrong it is nevertheless understandable in psychological terms. Severus doesn't misstreat Harry because he is bored, or because he is a violent or unstable man. Severus had deep emotional wounds which though they dio not excuse his behaviour they explain it. They show that Snape was very much a product of his environment. This does not absolve him of any personal responsibility for his actions. Rather it shows that with a better environment he could have been a better man, and even given his tumultous past he could have been a better man, but then how many of us can say that we couldn't be a better person?

Would you all please, please tone it down a bit? Thank you.

Originally Posted by boushh
And I think Snape knew and cared that there was more at stake here than just Harry. That's what I took out of it from the moment I read it. He wasn't happy about it, but it was the only way to save everyone according to DD's plan. However, it was still up to Harry to decide whether to go through with it. I really didn't think Snape was getting any satisfaction out of it at all, and I never had that impression. I don't think going along with DD's plan suggests it all. I think it's an acknowledgment of the understanding he had that DD was setting up the right plan to save the wizarding world, even if it affected Harry/DD/Snape personally.

:clap: :agree:

I second that!:)

I think it was a difficult thing that had to be done in order to destroy the soul piece in Harry, so there was no choice in the matter. I think it was something that Harry understood in the end-- that Dumbledore had to make difficult decisions, as did Harry... as did Snape, for the "greater good". Note, that I don't think the "greater good" is a bad thing, as it seems to be looked at around here a lot of the time. So I don't see Harry needing to forgive DD and by extension, Snape, for the plan, as much as finding some sort of understanding of them and their actions.

Because I have the impression that it may not have quite been considered a sacrifice if Harry knew that he might come out alive, and so the magic may not have happened.

Again, I don't know if it can be considered a sacrifice of one's life if one thinks that there is a decent chance they may come out of it alive, so I don't know if that magical protection to Harry's loved ones would have worked. I think Harry would eventually understand Dumbledore's actions... especially if he was able to look at them in a positive light, rather than truly feel betrayed... That last bit is just the impression that I have. I don't have text to support it, as it's been a while since I read the end of DH.

I respect your view, I just see it distinctly as I described above. But we can agree to disagree as you suggested. :)

And that's part of the reason why I don't think he was OK with Harry needing to sacrifice himself... but realize it was the only way to save the other innocents of the wizarding world, and that's why he went along with the plan... and not for any vindictive reason.

I feel like what I said is misunderstood. I don't think Snape was "Okay" with innocent people dying or happy about it. Harry was innocent in terms of good and evil and so Snape wouldn't feel he should die because he no longer thought that way once he'd changed sides.

I also agree Snape did not elect to go with Dumbledore's plan out of vindictiveness. He did it because it was necessary in his eyes, imo, he felt that Dumbledore had determined it was the only way Voldemort might be killed. Now that raises the first issue of whether it is ever right to plan and/or assist in the sacrifice of another, even for a greater good. In my view, that type of decision should be left up to the free thinking individual who must do the sacrificing. I also feel that a decision under duress is not allowing the person actual freedom of choice. Dumbledore instructing Snape to wait until the last moment to tell Harry would necessarily place Harry under circumstances of duress at that time because all of Voldemort's horcruxes would likely be destroyed except one and he'd presumably be extremely aggressive by that point, using any means to find and destroy the boy who stood to challenge him - which was the case. And of course Harry would have completed the arduous horcrux search and destroy mission at that time.

So Snape, being intelligent enough to figure all of this out, made the decision to assist Dumbledore in keeping the information from Harry that he was a horcrux - and thereby preventing him from making the free decision, over time and while not under duress, to sacrifice himself. I don't feel that was a righteous decision for him to make on Harry's behalf.

The second issue is the other I referred to. Snape was not happy a person had to die in order for Voldemort to be killed. However, that it happened to be Harry that had to die rendered this response from Snape:

"'So the boy...the boy must die?' asked Snape quite calmly."

JKR chose to write it that way. Not: "Harry must die?" "Have you searched out every possible means to save him? Are you certain it has to be this way? He's just a child! Is there nothing that can be done?"

That is is what I would expect from someone who wasn't particularly fond of Harry, but liked him as much as anyone else. JKR knows how to write that type of scene; she had Lupin go just so nuts when he thought Harry might have been kidnapped - merely kidnapped. But Snape not only responded calmly, but in the most distant of fashion "the boy" he called him - after knowing him for 6.5 years and after being assured that all Dumbledore said actually did mean that Harry must die, his thoughts turned to Lily and himself. "I thought...all these years...that we were protecting him for her. For Lily."

So to me, Snape's reaction showed an individual who accepted this rather terrible news in light of that fact that while it was necessary for Harry to die, it was after all, Harry Potter son of James Potter and proof that Lily had loved James and not Snape. That legacy of love would be abolished and while Snape would not find any happiness in that fact at that point, imo, I feel he would see it as a type of vindictive justice with respect to his emotions. So he didn't have to be vindictive himself in that moment - the circumstances fed into his vindictive feelings, but not those arising directly from his loathing. Jealousy was the true culprit which both fueled his dislike and his feelings of vindictiveness, imo.

Understand that I look at Snape's behavior in mistreating Harry as vindictive; getting back at James for winning Lily's love (and perhaps in part for the school boy grudge as well - although to a lesser degree, imo). Hatred does not make you take negative action and use negative and degrading words against others - once a person reaches that stage, they are "venting" their anger and "venting" is to cause another harm for harm sustained, imo. And that is the definition of revenge. So that is what I mean by sating his vindictive feelings - quite distinct from vindictively wishing Death upon Harry which I don't believe Snape consciously felt. It is admittedly a fine distinction, but I don't think Snape was proactively vindictive in desiring Harry's death, yet his vindictive feelings were sated nonetheless, purely by chance and due to circumstance.

So I disagree with JKR on that front and would be more than happy to argue the point with her. ;) I really disagree with the bolded sentences of the above paragraph and for the most part I don't see Snape as fueled by revenge, except briefly in the Shrieking Shack incident.

Well I am not certain if this is something you wish to agree to disagree on, but we seem pretty entrenched in our views, so it might be best. :)

Just because someone is mean or not nice to you doesn't mean they'd be cool with it if you died. So the school of thought above doesn't quite work for me.

It doesn't work for me either so I agree with you. Hopefully you can see by what I wrote above that this is not what I meant. Snape's continued negative behavior simply confirmed that Snape still held vindictive feelings, in my judgment - even knowing Harry was pegged to die at Voldemort's hands (which is generally not too pretty). He wasn't happy with it, nor was it breaking him up inside, imo, rather he accepted it and that was the end of that. The fact that it served as justice to his feelings of vindictiveness was an unlooked for boon.

To me this was not a new phenomenon. Snape had never considered - or else considered and disregarded - the fact that he was the person who had started the entire matter; the person who had caused Harry to be the 'chosen one' and hence, responsible for the fact that Harry had to die - by and through his act of delivering the prophecy, imo. I think if Snape had focused on that fact, he would have been filled with so much regret relative to Harry, he would have not only treated Harry civily, but he would have never consented to carry out a further injustice against him by adopting Dumbledore's wrongful plan. Snape concentrated on his feelings - his residual pain from losing Lily thrice - once by her decision, again when James won her and finally to death, imo. As such, his thinking did not extend to the residual pain Harry felt at that same loss of his mother or the loss of his father and having to live as an orphan in an abusive household. So to me it was simple for Snape to add this further injustice toward Harry to the collection - 'the boy must die' - and still continue to behave in the manner he always had.

I feel like what I said is misunderstood. I don't think Snape was "Okay" with innocent people dying or happy about it. Harry was innocent in terms of good and evil and so Snape wouldn't feel he should die because he no longer thought that way once he'd changed sides.

OK, I think we agree here.

I also agree Snape did not elect to go with Dumbledore's plan out of vindictiveness. He did it because it was necessary in his eyes, imo, he felt that Dumbledore had determined it was the only way Voldemort might be killed.

Yes, and I would personally supplement that wanting Voldemort out of the way was for the good of the wizarding world and not for personal revenge on Snape's part.

Now that raises the first issue of whether it is ever right to plan and/or assist in the sacrifice of another, even for a greater good. In my view, that type of decision should be left up to the free thinking individual who must do the sacrificing. I also feel that a decision under duress is not allowing the person actual freedom of choice. Dumbledore instructing Snape to wait until the last moment to tell Harry would necessarily place Harry under circumstances of duress at that time because all of Voldemort's horcruxes would likely be destroyed except one and he'd presumably be extremely aggressive by that point, using any means to find and destroy the boy who stood to challenge him - which was the case. And of course Harry would have completed the arduous horcrux search and destroy mission at that time.

Except that the way that it is written it was difficult to allow Harry the time to stew on the decision he had to make. It was best for Voldemort to have as little chance of knowing that they were out to destroy his horcruxes as possible. So from the way I read it, it was then necessary for Snape not to know about the horcruxes and for Harry not to know that he himself was a type of horcrux until the last moment. Harry was connected to Voldemort. The longer Harry knew about his predicament the odds of Voldemort seeing into Harry's mind and learning the truth go up... even if it was a small chance... would anyone (including Harry once he knew the truth) want to risk that?

So Snape, being intelligent enough to figure all of this out, made the decision to assist Dumbledore in keeping the information from Harry that he was a horcrux - and thereby preventing him from making the free decision, over time and while not under duress, to sacrifice himself. I don't feel that was a righteous decision for him to make on Harry's behalf.

I think Harry would understand why the decisions were made by Dumbledore and then followed by Snape (who was working partially in the dark about certain elements by necessity) and he would forgive them, as you said earlier. I don't think they were huge things to forgive because the situation here is by far from being an ideal one. They did not have the luxury of time because of the possibility of Voldemort learning the truth about Harry and the horcruxes.

And as I said before, I view this as a time of war and these three characters (and the rest of the good guys) as part of an army. DD is the general, even in death, making the tough strategic moves that unfortunately endanger the lives of his soldiers. Soldiers do their job even if they are not privy to all of the information. That's how I view this situation, so I can't look at DD or Snape as wronging Harry terribly. The entire truth was withheld from him until it was time for him to know. In a time of war one needs to move beyond how things effect one on a personal level and look at the big picture.

The second issue is the other I referred to. Snape was not happy a person had to die in order for Voldemort to be killed. However, that it happened to be Harry that had to die rendered this response from Snape:

"'So the boy...the boy must die?' asked Snape quite calmly."

JKR chose to write it that way. Not: "Harry must die?" "Have you searched out every possible means to save him? Are you certain it has to be this way? He's just a child! Is there nothing that can be done?"

She didn't write it that way because it would be out of character.

That is is what I would expect from someone who wasn't particularly fond of Harry, but liked him as much as anyone else. JKR knows how to write that type of scene; she had Lupin go just so nuts when he thought Harry might have been kidnapped - merely kidnapped. But Snape not only responded calmly, but in the most distant of fashion "the boy" he called him - after knowing him for 6.5 years and after being assured that all Dumbledore said actually did mean that Harry must die, his thoughts turned to Lily and himself. "I thought...all these years...that we were protecting him for her. For Lily."

Yes, he called Harry "the boy"... sure he didn't call him "Harry" but he didn't call him "Potter" either. That's the telling thing here. For Snape calling Harry "the boy" is almost affectionate. For Snape to call him "Harry" it would be out of character... too personal... but for him to leave behind Potter's name and to stumble over the words "the boy" and protest his death is a big enough deal for me.

And yes, his thoughts turn to Lily because now her sacrifice would be in vain and her boy (I don't think James comes up or figured in here at all) had to die. It was all for naught and he was upset on her behalf, and he felt he was used in a way that betrayed her. IMHO, anyway.

So to me, Snape's reaction showed an individual who accepted this rather terrible news in light of that fact that while it was necessary for Harry to die, it was after all, Harry Potter son of James Potter and proof that Lily had loved James and not Snape. That legacy of love would be abolished and while Snape would not find any happiness in that fact at that point, imo, I feel he would see it as a type of vindictive justice with respect to his emotions. So he didn't have to be vindictive himself in that moment - the circumstances fed into his vindictive feelings, but not those arising directly from his loathing. Jealousy was the true culprit which both fueled his dislike and his feelings of vindictiveness, imo.

Yet he was not feeling vindictive here, as you say, so whatever things he has done that can be perceived as being vindictive they don't have any relevance here, nor does any jealousy he felt at any point in time. I don't see how he would see justice being served that Harry will die because part of the purpose of his life was to protect Lily's child. And you also specify that Harry was the son of James Potter and Lily and that would fuel his past vindictiveness yet Snape conspicuously doesn't call Harry by his surname. James Potter doesn't figure in here as much as Lily and her son (the boy he promised to protect) do.

Understand that I look at Snape's behavior in mistreating Harry as vindictive; getting back at James for winning Lily's love (and perhaps in part for the school boy grudge as well - although to a lesser degree, imo). Hatred does not make you take negative action and use negative and degrading words against others - once a person reaches that stage, they are "venting" their anger and "venting" is to cause another harm for harm sustained, imo. And that is the definition of revenge. So that is what I mean by sating his vindictive feelings - quite distinct from vindictively wishing Death upon Harry which I don't believe Snape consciously felt. It is admittedly a fine distinction, but I don't think Snape was proactively vindictive in desiring Harry's death, yet his vindictive feelings were sated nonetheless, purely by chance and due to circumstance.

I don't think he was sated in any way by Harry's supposed fate. I don't think it's supported in the text in Deathly Hallows. I don't think he was getting revenge on James by treating Harry the way he did, even subconsciously. I think he just saw too much of James in Harry, and all of what he saw (whether real or assumed) could get Harry into trouble, which would anger Snape. I don't think he treated Harry the way he did purely because of his hatred of James either. So I disagree with a whole lot of that paragraph. Sorry. :)

It doesn't work for me either so I agree with you. Hopefully you can see by what I wrote above that this is not what I meant. Snape's continued negative behavior simply confirmed that Snape still held vindictive feelings, in my judgment - even knowing Harry was pegged to die at Voldemort's hands (which is generally not too pretty). He wasn't happy with it, nor was it breaking him up inside, imo, rather he accepted it and that was the end of that. The fact that it served as justice to his feelings of vindictiveness was an unlooked for boon.

I see what you mean now, and I think I disagree about the same. :) I don't think it was an unexpected bonus for Snape that Harry had to die. I think he didn't want that to happen, but could see no other way if he trusted Dumbledore to be making the right call for the good of everyone else.

To me this was not a new phenomenon. Snape had never considered - or else considered and disregarded - the fact that he was the person who had started the entire matter; the person who had caused Harry to be the 'chosen one' and hence, responsible for the fact that Harry had to die - by and through his act of delivering the prophecy, imo. I think if Snape had focused on that fact, he would have been filled with so much regret relative to Harry, he would have not only treated Harry civily, but he would have never consented to carry out a further injustice against him by adopting Dumbledore's wrongful plan.

I think he was very aware of that fact and felt tremendous guilt over it for years, and it was partially the reason for his sunny disposition. ;) He was a damaged individual because of his past mistakes and losses, so it would be difficult for him to behave like a model human being and be how some might want him to be towards Harry.

Snape concentrated on his feelings - his residual pain from losing Lily thrice - once by her decision, again when James won her and finally to death, imo. As such, his thinking did not extend to the residual pain Harry felt at that same loss of his mother or the loss of his father and having to live as an orphan in an abusive household. So to me it was simple for Snape to add this further injustice toward Harry to the collection - 'the boy must die' - and still continue to behave in the manner he always had.

Yet he worked to protect this boy and to teach him. It may not have been in the kind and gentle and supportive way one might want, but again Snape was damaged. He did have pain, but if he could not cope with his own pain in a proper way how could he be expected to be able to offer comfort or share it with anyone else? He may have behaved unfairly because of the emotions brewing inside of him but him having his own pain and difficulties that he can't deal with isn't vindictive or malicious or vengeful. He needed help and support himself, IMHO, never mind him being able to deal with the pain it must have caused Harry.

And because he feels things so strongly and because Harry is Lily's son whom he wanted to protect is why he protested Harry's fate. And him calling Harry "the boy" isn't distant to me at all. I looked at it completely the opposite for the reasons I stated in the above paragraphs. And I don't think it was easy for Snape to give Harry that message. It was just something that was unavoidable and instead of adding to the "injustices" that he caused Harry I think it added to his own bundle of pain because he failed in what he had promised to do for this boy in honor of Lily's memory. He wasn't consciously or subconsciously exacting any sort of revenge or anything similar on Harry, IMHO. I didn't feel that way from reading DH, at all, and I cannot point to the actions of the past either, because DH put a different spin on everything for me.

I just can't picture Snape devoting any affection or any time on a pet. :shrug:

I wonder what kind of father he'd have been, however, if he'd had children. :hmm:

OK, I think we agree here. Yes, and I would personally supplement that wanting Voldemort out of the way was for the good of the wizarding world and not for personal revenge on Snape's part.

It's funny because that is the one area in which I feel Snape would be totally justified in feeling vengeance. :lol:. However, I hold no real opinion on that, so it appears we agree on the gist of this.

Except that the way that it is written it was difficult to allow Harry the time to stew on the decision he had to make. It was best for Voldemort to have as little chance of knowing that they were out to destroy his horcruxes as possible. So from the way I read it, it was then necessary for Snape not to know about the horcruxes and for Harry not to know that he himself was a type of horcrux until the last moment. Harry was connected to Voldemort. The longer Harry knew about his predicament the odds of Voldemort seeing into Harry's mind and learning the truth go up... even if it was a small chance... would anyone (including Harry once he knew the truth) want to risk that?

Well, I understand what you are saying, but Harry knew all about the horcruxes and Voldemort could have seen that in his mind at any time as well. I feel like if Dumbledore could trust him with the info about the horcruxes, adding another wouldn't matter - since Voldemort was planning to kill Harry anyway. The biggest secret was the 'other' horcruxes - Snape, who was very close to Voldemort knew about Harry - so I don't think Dumbledore placed as high a priority on that info. And also, Dumbledore said it was just because he didn't wish to burden Harry with the info - but it was not only a burden, it was the truth and Harry deserved to know that his life might be cut short, imo.

I think Harry would understand why the decisions were made by Dumbledore and then followed by Snape (who was working partially in the dark about certain elements by necessity) and he would forgive them, as you said earlier. I don't think they were huge things to forgive because the situation here is by far from being an ideal one. They did not have the luxury of time because of the possibility of Voldemort learning the truth about Harry and the horcruxes.

And as I said before, I view this as a time of war and these three characters (and the rest of the good guys) as part of an army. DD is the general, even in death, making the tough strategic moves that unfortunately endanger the lives of his soldiers. Soldiers do their job even if they are not privy to all of the information. That's how I view this situation, so I can't look at DD or Snape as wronging Harry terribly. The entire truth was withheld from him until it was time for him to know. In a time of war one needs to move beyond how things effect one on a personal level and look at the big picture.

Well I respect your view and I don't discount it as we don't have canon. However, I am just stuck back on the non-disclosure issue. That it all came out well I agree compeltely. But that is not the basis on which I judge the matter. At the time it was undertaken, there was no foreknowledge that it would all come out okay. But I do understand where you are coming from and I can understand that view, I just can't let go of the non-disclosure. :lol:.

She didn't write it that way because it would be out of character.

Agreed. That was the point I was making. Based on Snape's character and his relations and behavior with, and ideas about Harry, it seemed in character the way she wrote it. But perhaps you just interpret it distinctly.

Yes, he called Harry "the boy"... sure he didn't call him "Harry" but he didn't call him "Potter" either. That's the telling thing here. For Snape calling Harry "the boy" is almost affectionate. For Snape to call him "Harry" it would be out of character... too personal... but for him to leave behind Potter's name and to stumble over the words "the boy" and protest his death is a big enough deal for me. And yes, his thoughts turn to Lily because now her sacrifice would be in vain and her boy (I don't think James comes up or figured in here at all) had to die. It was all for naught and he was upset on her behalf, and he felt he was used in a way that betrayed her. IMHO, anyway.

I respect that interpretation. I guess what throws me off are the following two factors. The foremost is that Snape didn't think in those terms during the series, in my judgment. Despite Harry being Lily's boy, he never treated him that way, not even once, imo. Importantly, never after having his conversation with Dumbledore did he treat him as if he had any relation to Lily at all. It was like he felt only James was looking down from the afterworld, and not Lily; like his acts and behavior wouldn't harm her. So I don't see him all of the sudden becoming concerned for Harry for Lily's sake in that scene - does that make sense?

The second reason is that Snape grew shocked, as I read it, when Dumbledore had told him what he had done. It was shocking and the disdain Snape showed I felt was directed toward Dumbledore because it was so unexpected. I felt it too. :lol: - so I figured Snape was feeling it right along with me. The thing is, Snape would have reacted the same no matter what person was concerned because it showed a side to Dumbledore that he kept very hidden, imo. So that is why I didn't construe Snape's response to mean that it had anything to do with Harry specifically - but rather it just so happened to have been Harry that Dumbledore did it to.

Snape felt used and abused, and rightly so, imo. He didn't promise to help with that. I think he felt it was not honoring Lily's sacrifice at all - raising her son for the slaughter and so the last 15 or so years had been spent helping Dumbledore dishonor Lily rather than the reverse.

Yet he was not feeling vindictive here, as you say, so whatever things he has done that can be perceived as being vindictive they don't have any relevance here, nor does any jealousy he felt at any point in time. I don't see how he would see justice being served that Harry will die because part of the purpose of his life was to protect Lily's child. And you also specify that Harry was the son of James Potter and Lily and that would fuel his past vindictiveness yet Snape conspicuously doesn't call Harry by his surname. James Potter doesn't figure in here as much as Lily and her son (the boy he promised to protect) do.

Well I do appreciate your interpretation. However, I didn't see Harry figuring into it at all in that respect. I only saw Snape and Lily figuring into it. Snape never said "I won't let you do that!" or "we have to tell him!" or anything - he just complied and I felt that was because his emotions did not extend to Harry personally, only to Lily. Harry had to die according to Dumbledore and Snape accepted it. I felt like Snape viewed it as he always appeared to view Harry - kind of like, "James son would die and Lily is getting the raw deal because I can't honor her sacrifice after all".

As to the other point - it is hard to get across what I mean. I agree Snape was not being proactively vindictive in this scene. Snape didn't forget for that moment that Harry represented Lily's love for James, nor his jealousy and dislike of the father and son, imo. Assuming JKR didn't err, Snape called Lily "Lily Potter" - so as I read it, Snape was completely dejected in that moment, feeling like he'd not been able to honor Lily's sacrifice at all - and he was once again placed in the shadows in relation to Lily. Lily was James wife; they loved one another; had Harry as a representation of that love and for all Snape wished to prove to himself that he could do the right thing with respect to Lily (as James had) - Dumbledore had completely ruined that idea. Hence, Lily was psychologically rendered 'everything Potter' once more.

So I would respectfully disagree that Snape wasn't thinking "Potter" - by his words he was, imo. But in terms of Lily and what he had failed to do on her behalf - again. It was "Snape" who was acting for "Lily", imo - but that didn't extend to Harry - hence Snape could mistreat him and not consider it as a mark against Lily - despite she and James looking down together from the afterworld - despite his own knowledge that he wished to honor her and try to do the right thing for her sake. So I felt like he had to categorize Harry's death the same way.

As I say - Snape was not being vindictive, so let me try to phrase what I am saying another way: Snape would see Harry's death in the same way he saw James death. No human deserves to die if they are innocent (good v. evil), but James had sacrificed himself for his family and Harry was pegged to sacrifice himself for the wizard world - Snape couldn't do anything about either of those facts. Yet, if neither of them were around, he'd never have to be reminded of Lily's love for another man again. Do you see what I mean? That legacy of love would be out of sight and perhaps then out of mind and there would be - let's call it - relief. But in this case, it eases the mind due to "harm" befalling others and that is the bit where the underlying vengeance is fed - it is not sought, it is merely hand fed by "fate" imo. Does that make more sense?

I don't think he was sated in any way by Harry's supposed fate. I don't think it's supported in the text in Deathly Hallows. I don't think he was getting revenge on James by treating Harry the way he did, even subconsciously. I think he just saw too much of James in Harry, and all of what he saw (whether real or assumed) could get Harry into trouble, which would anger Snape. I don't think he treated Harry the way he did purely because of his hatred of James either. So I disagree with a whole lot of that paragraph. Sorry. :)

Ah then you will likely disagree with my above paragraph too. JKR said that Snape saw Harry as a respresentation of Lily's love for another man and that is why he treated Harry he did. That speaks to jealousy with respect to Lily and James and has nothing to do with Harry, imo. That is why JKR went on to say that Snape's loathing for Harry was unfair in nature, imo, because it had nothing to do with him, but was solely in relation to Snape's feelings of jealousy - fueling his continued dislike for - James. I felt that was why it was easier for Harry to let it all go in the end - it had nothing to do with him and indeed, nothing to do with his mum or dad in as far as their relationship was concerned - it was all about how Snape felt and acted due to his personal emotions for Lily, imo. JKR's comments don't make any sense at all if Snape was only trying to be helpful the whole time - what would be unfair about that?

In any case, I felt the canon also made this pretty clear, but we can agree to disagree on this if you like. :)

I see what you mean now, and I think I disagree about the same. :) I don't think it was an unexpected bonus for Snape that Harry had to die. I think he didn't want that to happen, but could see no other way if he trusted Dumbledore to be making the right call for the good of everyone else.

:lol: - I wouldn't call it an unexpected bonus - it wasn't looked for like a bonus, but I don't Snape thought in terms of bonuses - just in terms of relief. But he didn't psychoanalyze that relief to the understanding that he was feeling relieved at not having to see the representation of James and Lily's love in the person of Harry because Harry would be killed - I don't think he would consider it that deeply or from that aspect. Snape seemed to keep those ideas very separate in his head, imo (meaning James/Harry versus Lily) from the moment he met Harry.

That is what was telling about the "look at me" - JKR said Snape found a kind of peace with Harry in that moment (and inadvertently with James as well) and I feel it had to be so in order for Snape to be able to look into James/Harry's face to see Lily's eyes one last time - if just for a second. Harry too with his undying compassion allowed for a bit of peace in that moment and aceded to Snape's request to look at him. It wasn't momentous, because Snape only had a second of life and he knew it, but Snape let his Harry/James guard down in that second and allowed for the idea of James-Lily-Harry to merge for a moment. I think you don't agree Snape loathed Harry and perhaps James - but for me, since I agree with JKR that he loathed both, so I felt it would require a peace or letting his guard down a moment to be able to do that for himself.

He needed help and support himself, IMHO, never mind him being able to deal with the pain it must have caused Harry.

Well our reasoning might be different, but I reached that conclusion also. Being isolated and a loner did not help matters in my view either. As I say, I respect your view and I think you present it well; I just have a different take on certain aspects. But it is always interesting to hear other viewpoints. :tu:

Well we can agree to disagree because I do not mean for my opinion to offend you. It is just when people use terms like murder or attempted manslaughter, it triggers rules in my head and Sirius does not meet them. However, Snape walking into danger smacks of a suicide mission in order to expose his enemies to me. How did he plan to escape whatever danger he found there?

As for Sirius, he was morally wrong, behaved like an ingrate instead of a friend to Remus and was disregarding of James too when he went to save Snape (in not electing to risk his own life and face the danger since he'd been involved and James hadn't). So yeah, he is not looking good here by any means, it is just that he was not an attempted murderer.

I think most people agree that Sirius is not an attempted murderer. Most people agree that this is a view held by Severus Snape of the incident and that while they can understand this point of view they do not necessarily agree with it.

Walking into danger for whatever reason does not mean someone is suicidal. There is no evidence to suggest that Severus wanted to end his life. If you have any canon to support the idea that Severus was suicidal then please quote it. Harry frequently walks into danger; in PoA he goes into Hogsmeade even though he does not have permission (which is simply breaking the rules) and more importantly Sirius Black is on the loose and is believed to be trying to kill Harry. Using your interpretation of "suicide mission" you could define Harry's trip to Hogsmeade as such, when clearly it is not. Harry undoubtedly puts himself in mortal peril and is severely reprimanded by Lupin for doing so. Was it foolhardy and reckless? -yes. Was it a suicide mission? - No. And the same can be said of Severus Snape's trip into the tunnel under the willow. It was foolhardy and reckless but it was not a suicide mission and to name it as such is simply wrong.

I think most people agree that Sirius is not an attempted murderer. Most people agree that this is a view held by Severus Snape of the incident and that while they can understand this point of view they do not necessarily agree with it.

It is certainly understandable why Snape would come to such a conclusion. Especially, as Sirius wasn't the one who stopped him. If James hadn't of found out, would Sirius have continued to sit and await what would happen? It's those kinds of questions that are likely/possibly going through Snape's (and fan's) head.

Walking into danger for whatever reason does not mean someone is suicidal. There is no evidence to suggest that Severus wanted to end his life. If you have any canon to support the idea that Severus was suicidal then please quote it. Harry frequently walks into danger; in PoA he goes into Hogsmeade even though he does not have permission (which is simply breaking the rules) and more importantly Sirius Black is on the loose and is believed to be trying to kill Harry. Using your interpretation of "suicide mission" you could define Harry's trip to Hogsmeade as such, when clearly it is not. Harry undoubtedly puts himself in mortal peril and is severely reprimanded by Lupin for doing so. Was it foolhardy and reckless? -yes. Was it a suicide mission? - No. And the same can be said of Severus Snape's trip into the tunnel under the willow. It was foolhardy and reckless but it was not a suicide mission and to name it as such is simply wrong.

:tu: Agreed. Good post.

It is certainly understandable why Snape would come to such a conclusion. Especially, as Sirius wasn't the one who stopped him. If James hadn't of found out, would Sirius have continued to sit and await what would happen? It's those kinds of questions that are likely to go through Snape's (and fan's) head.


Yes and considering their dealings in the past I don't blame him for thinking that Sirius was trying to hurt or even kill him, whether or not it was an overreaction. I do think he jumped the gun a bit when blaming James though, there was no real evidence that he was involved in the prank as far as I can see. I would like to think that Sirius would try to stop Snape in the end, either that or he told James knowing he would stop Snape, but that is a discussion for another thread

Hi guys :)

I'm going to intervene with an admin call on this one. Suicide is an extremely sensitive issue and I think out of respect for member who have dealt with it in real life we're better off not ascribing it to characters without harder evidence than we've got in this case.

Thank you all for understanding.

I think most people agree that Sirius is not an attempted murderer. Most people agree that this is a view held by Severus Snape of the incident and that while they can understand this point of view they do not necessarily agree with it.

Well this was a part of a conversation in which the my point was that I felt Snape's version of this scenario placed all of the blame upon Sirius and rendered Snape an innocent victim because he neither revealed that he knew a danger existed nor that he assumed the risk in order to expose his enemies (POA). This was not revealed until Lupin told us about the willow and Snape admitted his participation in DH-TPT via the memories.

In other words, I don't feel it was Snape's point of view, but rather he was making a false accusation in light of making Sirius appear guilty. In POA, Dumbledore responded to the charge by saying: "I remember everything" - which I feel was an ominous enough response to allow for the understanding that the reader did not have all of the facts. That turned out to be true as we discovered the rest in Deathly Hallows.

...And the same can be said of Severus Snape's trip into the tunnel under the willow. It was foolhardy and reckless

In deference to Jessica's request, I will not use a term that apparently can be easily misunderstood. My only point is that Snape knew of the unknown danger associated with stopping the tree and moving into the tunnel - and he had been told by the school that the danger was extreme. He was willing to risk his life in order to expose his enemies (a goal he admitted to in DH TPT), which I feel is a subversive purpose. That is distinguished from Harry moving into the chamber of secrets for example, also risking his life and moving into danger, but in order to save Ginny, i.e., for a good purpose, imo.

I disagree with you wwb that Snape knew that he was in extreme danger. He knew that the tree itself was dangerous, the staff at the time had told the students not to go near the tree, but I don't believe that he knew he would be in danger once he went inside the tree. He knew that if he poked the knot on the tree with a stick it would stop the branches waving around thus removing what he knew was dangerous. He didn't know the passage lead to a dangerous place, or was even dangerous itself. As far as he was concerned the danger was gone.
He was niave in thinking that Sirius was actually giving him a hint which wouldn't get him into trouble, but I doubt he expected following it to be dangerous. At most I expect he either thought that poking the knot wouldn't work or that Sirius was setting him up to get into trouble for going near the tree and/or off the grounds. I Snape here is a bit like Malfoy when he goes after Harry and Hermione when they are sending Norbert away- he wasn't thinking that he might get into trouble but that he would get the marauders into trouble.

I disagree with you wwb that Snape knew that he was in extreme danger. He knew that the tree itself was dangerous, the staff at the time had told the students not to go near the tree, but I don't believe that he knew he would be in danger once he went inside the tree. He knew that if he poked the knot on the tree with a stick it would stop the branches waving around thus removing what he knew was dangerous. He didn't know the passage lead to a dangerous place, or was even dangerous itself. As far as he was concerned the danger was gone.


And I think what you say is true even if Sev was suspecting that Lupin is a werewolf, as some believe. We know the tunnel leads to a dead end, the Shack. But Sev would have had no way to know that.

Well, I understand what you are saying, but Harry knew all about the horcruxes and Voldemort could have seen that in his mind at any time as well. I feel like if Dumbledore could trust him with the info about the horcruxes, adding another wouldn't matter - since Voldemort was planning to kill Harry anyway.

Yes, but if he could see into Harry's mind and learn that Harry himself was a type of horcrux, would he kill Harry? Especially if many of the other horcruxes are destroyed by then? Harry is no different than Nagini then. He wouldn't want to kill Harry if a bit of his own soul resided there and most of his other horcruxes were gone. I don't think it would be good for Voldemort to learn this in the heat of the battle. I think it would change things to much and they'd lose their chance. So for Harry to know this would not be a good thing, IMHO, at least not for too long. There is less of a chance of Voldemort finding out by chance if Harry only knows the details for a short time. Now we know that DD doesn't think that Voldie would try to see into Harry's mind again, but would he really want to take that chance?

The biggest secret was the 'other' horcruxes - Snape, who was very close to Voldemort knew about Harry - so I don't think Dumbledore placed as high a priority on that info. And also, Dumbledore said it was just because he didn't wish to burden Harry with the info - but it was not only a burden, it was the truth and Harry deserved to know that his life might be cut short, imo.

He knew his life may be cut short anyway. It isn't like he wasn't considering the possibility he might be killed by Voldemort. It was one of two outcomes according to the prophecy, IIRC. As for Snape, he was a highly accomplished Occlumens. And he learned of the soul bit in Harry after he and DD had a conversation about trust, and DD assured him that he trusted him with this info, but he did not want to put all his eggs in one basket so to speak so he didn't know about the other horcruxes. So it isn't that he didn't think the information important about Harry and Voldie's soul. He just trusted Snape enough that he wouldn't divulge that information and that he would be able to protect that information within his mind.

I just don't see it as being a huge deal to want Harry to have one less thing to worry about during the stressful horcrux hunt, as well as wanting to protect that information from Voldemort. I don't know what would have been gained from Harry knowing the entire time anyway. It may have lessened his resolve or depressed him rather than motivate him to find the horcruxes and then walk to his death. I think in the end Harry understood why DD withheld information from both Snape and Harry and was able to forgive him if he felt it was something that required it. And since this is the Snape thread, I still don't see how he can be blamed for Dumbledore's decisions. He carried out what he was asked to do regardless of his feelings on the matter, because in the end he trusted DD would do what was best for everyone, IMHO.


Well I respect your view and I don't discount it as we don't have canon. However, I am just stuck back on the non-disclosure issue. That it all came out well I agree compeltely. But that is not the basis on which I judge the matter. At the time it was undertaken, there was no foreknowledge that it would all come out okay. But I do understand where you are coming from and I can understand that view, I just can't let go of the non-disclosure. :lol:.

I am not saying "nor harm no foul". I am saying that the decisions were made for certain reasons and I think that Harry in the end understood that, and Snape cannot be blamed for following DD's plan as if he was Dumbledore himself, since you clearly do not like that Harry didn't have all of the information. Sometimes what we would think is best in an ideal situation is just not possible in difficult times.

Agreed. That was the point I was making. Based on Snape's character and his relations and behavior with, and ideas about Harry, it seemed in character the way she wrote it. But perhaps you just interpret it distinctly.

Yep. :)

I respect that interpretation. I guess what throws me off are the following two factors. The foremost is that Snape didn't think in those terms during the series, in my judgment. Despite Harry being Lily's boy, he never treated him that way, not even once, imo. Importantly, never after having his conversation with Dumbledore did he treat him as if he had any relation to Lily at all. It was like he felt only James was looking down from the afterworld, and not Lily; like his acts and behavior wouldn't harm her. So I don't see him all of the sudden becoming concerned for Harry for Lily's sake in that scene - does that make sense?

He was protecting this boy for Lily so how does that equate to him never seeing him as Lily's child? I don't think he put those memories together and basically bared his soul to James Potter's son, the boy he hated, but to Lily Potter's son, the boy he protected all this time and who knew nothing of his mother and Snape's motivations for everything. I don't have the opinion that he shared all those memories because he needed to convince Harry of what he needed to do. For Snape to share these very personal memories to the boy who he never wanted to know the truth of his feelings for the boy's mother is a big deal. He shared those memories with Harry and I don't think he would have done so if he strictly saw Harry himself in a negative light and never saw him as his mother's son.

The second reason is that Snape grew shocked, as I read it, when Dumbledore had told him what he had done. It was shocking and the disdain Snape showed I felt was directed toward Dumbledore because it was so unexpected. I felt it too. :lol: - so I figured Snape was feeling it right along with me. The thing is, Snape would have reacted the same no matter what person was concerned because it showed a side to Dumbledore that he kept very hidden, imo. So that is why I didn't construe Snape's response to mean that it had anything to do with Harry specifically - but rather it just so happened to have been Harry that Dumbledore did it to.

To me, most of his reaction had to do with Harry and Lily and not as much about Dumbledore. Snape didn't have a comeback that criticized Dumbledore. There was no, "How could you?" or "This is not like you, Dumbledore!" The closest thing to that would be his comment about being used.

Snape felt used and abused, and rightly so, imo. He didn't promise to help with that. I think he felt it was not honoring Lily's sacrifice at all - raising her son for the slaughter and so the last 15 or so years had been spent helping Dumbledore dishonor Lily rather than the reverse.

I agree, dunno about the abused part but used yes. However, a lot of what you post above is about Harry and Lily and not his shock at DD.

Well I do appreciate your interpretation. However, I didn't see Harry figuring into it at all in that respect. I only saw Snape and Lily figuring into it. Snape never said "I won't let you do that!" or "we have to tell him!" or anything - he just complied and I felt that was because his emotions did not extend to Harry personally, only to Lily. Harry had to die according to Dumbledore and Snape accepted it. I felt like Snape viewed it as he always appeared to view Harry - kind of like, "James son would die and Lily is getting the raw deal because I can't honor her sacrifice after all".

I don't think so. I don't think he even needed to have DD explain that Harry had to die. He figured it out for himself and stumbled over the words even if he said them calmly. Most of his words have to do with Lily and Harry, her son... and it's a big deal and he is upset even if he isn't freaking out the entire time. It's not, "oh well... good riddance James Potter Jr. Sorry, Lily, I tried."

Eventually, he knew there was nothing to be done and he had failed in protecting Lily's son, IMHO. Now there was the task of keeping the rest of the wizarding world safe. That's why he agreed to go along with the plan, as far as I can see.

As to the other point - it is hard to get across what I mean. I agree Snape was not being proactively vindictive in this scene. Snape didn't forget for that moment that Harry represented Lily's love for James, nor his jealousy and dislike of the father and son, imo. Assuming JKR didn't err, Snape called Lily "Lily Potter" - so as I read it, Snape was completely dejected in that moment, feeling like he'd not been able to honor Lily's sacrifice at all - and he was once again placed in the shadows in relation to Lily. Lily was James wife; they loved one another; had Harry as a representation of that love and for all Snape wished to prove to himself that he could do the right thing with respect to Lily (as James had) - Dumbledore had completely ruined that idea. Hence, Lily was psychologically rendered 'everything Potter' once more.

I saw him calling her Lily Potter as a sign of respect to their marriage, even if he hated James. If he had called her Evans, I would be more concerned. He accepted that they married and I don't think it tainted her as "everything Potter" as you suggest. She was still Lily, and he still loved her.

So I would respectfully disagree that Snape wasn't thinking "Potter" - by his words he was, imo. But in terms of Lily and what he had failed to do on her behalf - again. It was "Snape" who was acting for "Lily", imo - but that didn't extend to Harry - hence Snape could mistreat him and not consider it as a mark against Lily - despite she and James looking down together from the afterworld - despite his own knowledge that he wished to honor her and try to do the right thing for her sake. So I felt like he had to categorize Harry's death the same way.

I disagree. I think there was a lot to his treatment of Harry and I do think he was very conflicted in his emotions over him. Just the very nature of him being the son of his enemy and the woman he loved is a conflict. If he cared enough to protect the child on Lily's behalf then he did care... on some level he did extend the love he felt for Lily towards her son. I'm not saying that he loved Harry, but I'm saying that in order to protect him and want to teach him to protect himself, and to keep him out of trouble, he had to care about him on some level. His death scene and the nature of his memories made me feel that, along with a bunch of things that can be taken more than one way when I read through the series after DH.

As I say - Snape was not being vindictive, so let me try to phrase what I am saying another way: Snape would see Harry's death in the same way he saw James death. No human deserves to die if they are innocent (good v. evil), but James had sacrificed himself for his family and Harry was pegged to sacrifice himself for the wizard world - Snape couldn't do anything about either of those facts. Yet, if neither of them were around, he'd never have to be reminded of Lily's love for another man again. Do you see what I mean? That legacy of love would be out of sight and perhaps then out of mind and there would be - let's call it - relief. But in this case, it eases the mind due to "harm" befalling others and that is the bit where the underlying vengeance is fed - it is not sought, it is merely hand fed by "fate" imo. Does that make more sense?

I still don't see him gaining anything from Harry's death... at all. I don't think it would be a relief. I think it would be the opposite because he had failed. I don't see Snape having had much relief in his adult life and I don't think he'd be getting any here.

Ah then you will likely disagree with my above paragraph too. JKR said that Snape saw Harry as a respresentation of Lily's love for another man and that is why he treated Harry he did. That speaks to jealousy with respect to Lily and James and has nothing to do with Harry, imo. That is why JKR went on to say that Snape's loathing for Harry was unfair in nature, imo, because it had nothing to do with him, but was solely in relation to Snape's feelings of jealousy - fueling his continued dislike for - James. I felt that was why it was easier for Harry to let it all go in the end - it had nothing to do with him and indeed, nothing to do with his mum or dad in as far as their relationship was concerned - it was all about how Snape felt and acted due to his personal emotions for Lily, imo. JKR's comments don't make any sense at all if Snape was only trying to be helpful the whole time - what would be unfair about that?

I like to look at the text for the purposes of this discussion. This thread isn't about what JKR thinks. It's about what we think and about us analyzing her character. The text trumps JKR, IMHO, and we should work off of that. However, I do agree that he did see Harry as a "living representation of Lily's preference for another man" however I do not think that is the only way he saw him. And yes, I do think his treatment of Harry was unfair a lot of the time, but this was not the only reason for how he treated Harry. However, I also don't see him treating Harry quite as badly as you do, even if it was unfair treatment a lot of the time.

And I think Harry saw more in Snape than you do, in the end, and that's why he was able to forgive him and name his child after him. IMHO, it wasn't something he did for his mother, as you suggested earlier. He honored his mother's friend, yes, because that's what Snape was. I don't view it as his only reason for doing so, at all, and in fact he makes a statement about Snape that contradicts that view.


In any case, I felt the canon also made this pretty clear, but we can agree to disagree on this if you like. :)

We read the canon, or the text as I like to call it, differently. So what is clear to me is obviously not clear to you and vice versa. ;)

That is what was telling about the "look at me" - JKR said Snape found a kind of peace with Harry in that moment (and inadvertently with James as well) and I feel it had to be so in order for Snape to be able to look into James/Harry's face to see Lily's eyes one last time - if just for a second. Harry too with his undying compassion allowed for a bit of peace in that moment and aceded to Snape's request to look at him. It wasn't momentous, because Snape only had a second of life and he knew it, but Snape let his Harry/James guard down in that second and allowed for the idea of James-Lily-Harry to merge for a moment. I think you don't agree Snape loathed Harry and perhaps James - but for me, since I agree with JKR that he loathed both, so I felt it would require a peace or letting his guard down a moment to be able to do that for himself.

I agree that he would have needed to look past the resemblance of James to look into Harry's/Lily's eyes one last time, but he looked at Harry's eyes often, if I recall correctly. I think the significance was twofold. He wanted to see her one last time through Harry and he wanted Harry to finally know him. "Look at me" = more than one meaning to me.

I agree that Snape loathed Harry at times, but I don't feel it is the only emotion he had for him.

Well our reasoning might be different, but I reached that conclusion also. Being isolated and a loner did not help matters in my view either.

No it didn't help, but even if he didn't have a tendency to be a loner already because of his background, people suffering from some form of emotional pain/depression often withdraw from others as well as take things out on others.

As I say, I respect your view and I think you present it well; I just have a different take on certain aspects. But it is always interesting to hear other viewpoints. :tu:

Thanks, it's good to see the different sides sometimes, even if we don't agree. :) I think we've presented our opinions on the matters, so we'll have to agree to disagree on most things here. I don't have a lot of time to continue the in depth discussion, unfortunately, but I think we covered everything on each of our ends anyway. :)

And I think what you say is true even if Sev was suspecting that Lupin is a werewolf, as some believe. We know the tunnel leads to a dead end, the Shack. But Sev would have had no way to know that.

And even if he was suspecting Lupin was a werewolf I wonder if he may have wondered if he could have been wrong and there was something he was missing. I wonder if he'd doubt that Sirius would really send him into a situation that would bring him face to face with a werewolf? I dunno, it's just a thought I had while reading this exchange.

Yes, but if he could see into Harry's mind and learn that Harry himself was a type of horcrux, would he kill Harry? Especially if many of the other horcruxes are destroyed by then? Harry is no different than Nagini then. He wouldn't want to kill Harry if a bit of his own soul resided there and most of his other horcruxes were gone. I don't think it would be good for Voldemort to learn this in the heat of the battle. I think it would change things to much and they'd lose their chance. So for Harry to know this would not be a good thing, IMHO, at least not for too long.

Dumbledore specifically tells Snape that it is most important that Voldemort himself must be the one to kill Harry.
'And Voldemort himself must do it , Severus. That is essential.'
I don't think this sort of information would have been good for Harry to know too soon given his connection with Voldemort. Even though, Dumbledore was sure Voldemort would not try and use this communication again, it couldn't be ruled out completely as long as the connection still existed between them. Dumbledore deliberately didn't put his eggs in one basket for a good reason: Harry knew about the other Horcruxes and Snape knew about the one in Harry.


I don't think he even needed to have DD explain that Harry had to die. He figured it out for himself and stumbled over the words even if he said them calmly.

Exactly! That is why I believe those words were spoken calmly. He was working it all out as he spoke. He said them just as the penny was dropping.

I disagree with you wwb that Snape knew that he was in extreme danger. He knew that the tree itself was dangerous, the staff at the time had told the students not to go near the tree, but I don't believe that he knew he would be in danger once he went inside the tree. He knew that if he poked the knot on the tree with a stick it would stop the branches waving around thus removing what he knew was dangerous. He didn't know the passage lead to a dangerous place, or was even dangerous itself. As far as he was concerned the danger was gone.

I based my analysis on this discussion:

"I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there---" (Lily in DH TPT, emphasis added)

AND:

"They sneak out at night. There's something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?

"He's ill..."

"Every month at the full moon?" said Snape.

"I know your theory," sad Lily and she sounded cold. (DH TPT, emphasis added)

He was niave in thinking that Sirius was actually giving him a hint which wouldn't get him into trouble, but I doubt he expected following it to be dangerous. At most I expect he either thought that poking the knot wouldn't work or that Sirius was setting him up to get into trouble for going near the tree and/or off the grounds. I Snape here is a bit like Malfoy when he goes after Harry and Hermione when they are sending Norbert away- he wasn't thinking that he might get into trouble but that he would get the marauders into trouble.

I don't understand. By this reasoning, how could Snape possibly feel he could get the Marauders in trouble? He was the one breaking the rules by stopping the tree and going into the tunnel. Do you mean you think Snape honestly believed Sirius gave him a means to get him and his friends in trouble with no ulterior motive? Why would he believe that?

Thanks, it's good to see the different sides sometimes, even if we don't agree. :) I think we've presented our opinions on the matters, so we'll have to agree to disagree on most things here. I don't have a lot of time to continue the in depth discussion, unfortunately, but I think we covered everything on each of our ends anyway. :)

Agreed. I enjoyed the discussion. :tu:

I based my analysis on this discussion:

"I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there---" (Lily in DH TPT, emphasis added)

AND:

"They sneak out at night. There's something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?

"He's ill..."

"Every month at the full moon?" said Snape.

"I know your theory," sad Lily and she sounded cold. (DH TPT, emphasis added)

hmm, I was going on what was said in, POA, I think it was. I can't quote off the top of my head, but I think maybe it could be read either way. I think really Snape can't have thought what he was doing was that dangerous, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.


I don't understand. By this reasoning, how could Snape possibly feel he could get the Marauders in trouble? He was the one breaking the rules by stopping the tree and going into the tunnel. Do you mean you think Snape honestly believed Sirius gave him a means to get him and his friends in trouble with no ulterior motive? Why would he believe that?

Umm I'll try to explain more clearly.
I guess he thought he would get the mauraders into trouble because he would catch them doing something they shouldn't, which was worse than what he was doing to catch them. (hmm I'm not sure that's actually clearer).
I don't think Snape didn't expect an ulterior motive, but I don't think he expected it to be something that dangerous. Maybe because he didn't think Sirius would put him in such a dangerous situation. Maybe he thought that the mauraders were just giving him a tip to get him into trouble, but if he didn't get caught then he could find out the truth.

Certainly I doubt Snape was just blindly following what Sirius had told him.

Umm I'll try to explain more clearly.
I guess he thought he would get the mauraders into trouble because he would catch them doing something they shouldn't, which was worse than what he was doing to catch them. (hmm I'm not sure that's actually clearer).


I get it. You mean like when Malfoy tried to follow Harrry and Hermione in PS/SS, to try and catch them with Norbert. He was out of bed and breaking the rules, but thought if he caught them with a dragon he would get them into trouble but not be punished himself.

I get it. You mean like when Malfoy tried to follow Harrry and Hermione in PS/SS, to try and catch them with Norbert. he was out of bed and breaking the rules, but thought if he caught them with a dragon he would get them into trouble but not be punished himself.

Yes that's right, thanks :)

hmm, I was going on what was said in, POA, I think it was. I can't quote off the top of my head, but I think maybe it could be read either way. I think really Snape can't have thought what he was doing was that dangerous, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

Well the thing is, he suspected Lupin was a werewolf and was there - and he spent POA saying that meeting up with Lupin would have killed him (hence Sirius was an attempted murderer) So I don't really see how the two ideas mesh. Also, as I said, even if it wasn't a werewolf in the end, it was still known by the students that "something was down there" that was dangerous - near the tree as Lily pointed out. So I respect your view, but I don't feel that there is anyway Snape could believe what he was doing wasn't dangerous.

Umm I'll try to explain more clearly.
I guess he thought he would get the mauraders into trouble because he would catch them doing something they shouldn't, which was worse than what he was doing to catch them. (hmm I'm not sure that's actually clearer).
I don't think Snape didn't expect an ulterior motive, but I don't think he expected it to be something that dangerous. Maybe because he didn't think Sirius would put him in such a dangerous situation. Maybe he thought that the mauraders were just giving him a tip to get him into trouble, but if he didn't get caught then he could find out the truth.

Certainly I doubt Snape was just blindly following what Sirius had told him.

:lol:...not really, I still don't guess I understand what you mean. If Snape meant to catch the Marauder at doing something, wouldn't they have to be there? He knew at least Sirius wasn't there and if that was his plan, it would seem to me he'd wait until he was certain they were there. Also, since he had his "theory" about Lupin and every full moon = werewolf; and he'd been watching Lupin for several months at least (because he knew it was every full moon), it rather indicates that his purpose was to confirm his theory and expose Lupin, imo. Further, he told Lily that his purpose in following the Marauders around was to show Lily that they were not as wonderful as everyone thought they were - confirming Sirius' assertion that he followed them around trying to get them expelled. So in my judgment, it all adds up to Snape deciding to risk his life by going into the tunnel in order to confirm and expose Lupin and get the Marauders in trouble for consorting with a dark creature by non-school authorities.

But that does beg the question as to how he planned to deal with Lupin or whatever danger he encountered. He may have created a curse to handle Lupin, but if it turned out to be some other unknown danger, he could have been killed by that as he'd be unprepared for it. Cursing Lupin wouldn't be too kind either.

I am not sure what your idea was that you were expressing above, but with the DH canon, JKR had Snape reveal that he suspected Lupin was a werewolf when he headed down the tunnel. I don't really see any point in her doing that if she was attempting to say that Snape wandered in unknowingly. I feel she was explaining Dumbledore's statement in POA: "I remember everything" - rather than agreeing with Snape's assertion that Sirius was an attempted murderer and Snape the unwary victim.

Part of Snape's tale had already been proven false; and in DH, we found out that he left parts of it that he did know out altogether. People Harry trusted, including Dumbledore, had told Harry that Snape's rendering of the past was one sided and heavily weighted to make others look bad and him look good (not in those words, but by telling Harry a different version, and because so many told him a different version, canon provided that Snape was not disclosing the whole truth, exaggerating and relaying his opinions as if they were facts). So that was one of the reasons that Harry did not trust Snape - he couldn't trust a word he said (even when I as a reader believed Snape, like about closing Harry's mind and such, Harry doubted Snape and thought he was helping Voldemort get into his mind) - and Harry already knew the things Snape was saying about him were not all true (i.e., he didn't strut and he was not just a nasty little boy), imo. So Snape came clean about these things and in that way Harry could trust that the memory of Dumbledore was genuine. That included the details of some of these past stories and also why it was that he misconstrued so many things about he and his father - jealousy (DH TPT).

I used to think that Sirius had somehow tricked Snape into going into the tunnel - the canon wasn't clear on that point because Lupin only said that Sirius had told him how to stop the willow and nothing more. And I too thought it impossible that Snape would do anything Sirius suggested because he knew Sirius disliked him and counted him an enemy (and visa versa). So it made no sense that Snape would stop the tree and go inside. But DH cleared that up and gave Snape a motive for going into the tunnel, imo. Now the entire tale as we have it makes sense to me. :)

Well at the very least I doubt Snape went through the willow without some sort of plan. Even if he was only doing it to prove his theory it seems a bit strange. I did think of something a second ago, but now it seems to have gone...maybe I'll think of it again.

Umm I'll try to explain more clearly.
I guess he thought he would get the mauraders into trouble because he would catch them doing something they shouldn't, which was worse than what he was doing to catch them. (hmm I'm not sure that's actually clearer).

I agree. I think this goes along with him following them around. I don't see it as being much different than Harry trying to catch Draco doing something suspicious and vice versa. He did want to prove they weren't so great. Even if he wasn't sure if he was going to catch them doing something, he may have thought he'd find some sort of incriminating evidence. And maybe his curiosity got the better of him. ;)

I don't think Snape didn't expect an ulterior motive, but I don't think he expected it to be something that dangerous. Maybe because he didn't think Sirius would put him in such a dangerous situation. Maybe he thought that the mauraders were just giving him a tip to get him into trouble, but if he didn't get caught then he could find out the truth.

Yeah, I think it's possible that he doubted Sirius would really lead him to such a life threatening situation. So perhaps he thought he'd find that his theory was wrong and that there was something else going on with the Marauders that he could get some proof on. Even if he thought his theory about Lupin was a strong one, he still would not have known for sure until he saw him or was told the truth, so there is room for doubt in there.

Another possibility is that he thought he would be seeing Lupin transformed but that he would be restrained in some way. I can see him rationalizing things like that too.

And I think Snape knew and cared that there was more at stake here than just Harry. That's what I took out of it from the moment I read it. He wasn't happy about it, but it was the only way to save everyone according to DD's plan. However, it was still up to Harry to decide whether to go through with it. I really didn't think Snape was getting any satisfaction out of it at all, and I never had that impression. I don't think going along with DD's plan suggests it all. I think it's an acknowledgment of the understanding he had that DD was setting up the right plan to save the wizarding world, even if it affected Harry/DD/Snape personally.

Such an excellent post, Boushh ~ well-said! :tu: :agree:

I don't understand. By this reasoning, how could Snape possibly feel he could get the Marauders in trouble? He was the one breaking the rules by stopping the tree and going into the tunnel.
But you're forgetting something there: no one was supposed to know how to stop the tree, right? No one was even supposed to be around the tree. So Snape knew that Sirius had already been breaking the rules by messing around the tree and knowing so much about the tunnel. I believe that Snape certainly did want to catch the Marauders doing something wrong so he could prove it to Lily (although he should have realized she already knew they were rule-breakers but she didn't care).

You are also forgetting that Snape saw Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin to the tree, so he knew it was some sort of illness. The werewolf idea was just an educated guess. Lily calls it a "theory." But the very fact that Sirius told him to go into the tunnel would make Snape feel that it wasn't true - he didn't expect that Sirius would send him to his possible death, even if he was a bully in the past.

Also, in my opinion there is obviously a flaw with the Whomping Willow in that it can be stopped just by poking a stick at it. Snape would have expected Dumbledore to think up a better safeguard than that to protect the school from a werewolf. But Dumbledore never reckoned that the Marauders would outsmart him - another flaw in his plans. :)

Hadn't he also seen the marauders sneaking off to the tree?

I would think the fact that they went down the tunnel every month and came out just fine each time made Snape think it would be safe for him. :)

Well at the very least I doubt Snape went through the willow without some sort of plan. Even if he was only doing it to prove his theory it seems a bit strange. I did think of something a second ago, but now it seems to have gone...maybe I'll think of it again.

I remembered now. Maybe Snpae thought he would get caught before he had got to whatever was beneath the willow, for all he knew it would be visable from the entrance, and at the same time the mauraders would be caught?

I would think the fact that they went down the tunnel every month and came out just fine each time made Snape think it would be safe for him. :)

This is a great point kit. :)

Snape IMO would have known what a werewolf was capable of and if he had really been sure that Remus was a werewolf, I doubt he would have gone into the tunnel (there is nothing in canon to say Snape knew); and this also brings to light Sirius's mind set. He knew what Remus was capable of as a werewolf and he still sent Snape in. I wonder what that says about Sirius that he cared nothing for Snape's life and even less for Remus's IMO.

posted by SIP
You are also forgetting that Snape saw Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin to the tree, so he knew it was some sort of illness. The werewolf idea was just an educated guess. Lily calls it a "theory." But the very fact that Sirius told him to go into the tunnel would make Snape feel that it wasn't true - he didn't expect that Sirius would send him to his possible death, even if he was a bully in the past.

:agree:

Hadn't he also seen the marauders sneaking off to the tree?

I would think the fact that they went down the tunnel every month and came out just fine each time made Snape think it would be safe for him. :)

I'm not sure he had, but he at least knew they were sneaking off, and probably had noticed it was on the full moon. He didn't know they were animagi so he probably thought that if it was safe for them it would be for him too

Hadn't he also seen the marauders sneaking off to the tree?

I would think the fact that they went down the tunnel every month and came out just fine each time made Snape think it would be safe for him. :)
There you go - that makes perfect sense.

Another possibility is that he thought he would be seeing Lupin transformed but that he would be restrained in some way. I can see him rationalizing things like that too.
Again, that makes perfect sense.

I'm not sure he had, but he at least knew they were sneaking off, and probably had noticed it was on the full moon. He didn't know they were animagi so he probably thought that if it was safe for them it would be for him too

Great point - Snape chose what to do without knowing all the facts. No one knew the Marauders were Animagi.

We know "what happened" but only from the Marauders point of view, and only from a few snippets of conversation with Lily in Snape's memory. We aren't privy to his entire line of reasoning about it, but these are good guesses.

My feeling is that they were teenagers. Sirius didn't think it through very logically, and neither did Snape. They both had emotional reasons for what they did - Sirius because he disliked Snape, and Snape because he disliked the Marauders and wanted to prove something to Lily. It's not all about a logical thought process. :lol:

But it wasn't Snape's plan. It wasn't like he collaborated with Dumbledore to come up with the Master Plan to sacrifice Harry. He went along with it, sure, but that's because Dumbledore had made it plain there was no other way. Dumbledore is always calling the shots. :)
And even then, Dumbledore was simply reacting to the circumstances created by Voldemort.

Snape seems to have been appalled, although he also might have been simultaneously shocked by this utterly surprising bit of accidental magic: it is possible that Snape knew next to nothing about Horcruxes, after all, and even if he did, then it almost certainly never had occurred to him that one might be created accidentally on another person.

Still, there does seem to be genuine displeasure that his (Snape's) lasting tribute to Lily was not going to last: detestable though Snape found James the Younger (who, it seems, walked through the world with his eyes shut in more ways than one in Snape's mind!), Harry was the last of her.
Interestingly, however, he doesn't seem to blame or resent Snape for going along with the plan.I think that this gets into raw story. At this point, the story reaches its zenith: Harry fully realizes that Dumbledore had been, after all, acting for the Greater Good, and that Dumbledore was sacrificing Harry not because he (Dumbledore) was getting some Machiavellian buzz off of it, but because Voldemort had (accidentally) necessitated Harry's death by accidentally making Harry a Horcrux all of those years ago.

Harry accepted Dumbledore's motives by the time he confronted Aberforth: but now it was magnified by Snape's (and Fred's, Lupin's and Tonks') deaths. Everyone had died to get Harry to the point where he could die to save the survivors. The only person involved in this chain of events who did this out of malice was Voldemort: and although Harry's "death" was not going to kill Voldemort as Dumbledore had hoped (darned snake!), Voldie would be one act of serpenticide away from oblivion. So, in a sense, Dumbledore (and Snape and everyone else) have over-succeeded: Harry was willing to die just to set up Voldemort's death, rather than actually kill Voldemort. However, that is what Snape, Fred, etc., all had done.

Snape also seems to have understood that there was no other option. More importantly, Harry now understood (or at least knew: whether he had come to grips with it or not is questionable!) that Snape had, likewise, been acting for the Greater Good. What Harry also understood is that whereas Dumbledore had had to hurt someone he loved, Snape had had to help someone that he hated: and Harry now had a much better idea of just how much of an anguish the existence of Harry Potter must have been to Severus Snape.

And, yes, Snape was mistaken: however, even Voldemort lacked the theoretical knowledge necessary to comprehend that the additional bonds between Harry and Voldemort meant that Voldemort could not easily kill Harry at this time.


And as for who Harry summoned through the stone, well, I would not read too much into that. This is literature, after all, and Rowling had to think about both presentation and story. Snape had just gotten his big send-off: having him return would have been anticlimactic. Dumbledore was about to get his big return and swansong: it would have diminished that somewhat had he turned up early. This really was about Sirius, James and Lily: it was their "so long, and thanks for the fish." Lupin is sort of a Ringo here, but even he gets a key line about his death being worth it if it creates a world where his son can live without prejudice.

Great point - Snape chose what to do without knowing all the facts. No one knew the Marauders were Animagi.
Well, doesn't everyone: the universe might not be infinite, but it is near enough for human minds! Regardless, Snape had enough facts to reach sensible and likely conclusions about the Marauders, both in and after Hogwarts. The possibility that they were animagi was an outlandish one: very few wizards are skilled enough to do so, after all. This is a nice example of the difference between "simple" and "easy": the idea that the Marauders were animagi was a simple explanation for the plot and the background of PoA (one explanation for myriad events), but it was not an easy explanation: it is difficult magic and it is so rare that it does not leap to mind.

However, what we see in PoA is Snape seeing things through a predisposition to think the worst of James Potter, Sirius Black and Remus Lupin. We see Harry later do the same thing to Snape in Prince. Similarly, Snape no doubt did not think that Pettigrew was capable of magic such as becoming an animagi: thus, his contempt leads him to underestimate a potential foe and he rejects the idea that Pettigrew could be alive and the actual traitor. We see Ron and Hermine mimic this mistake in Prince, when they refuse to credit Draco with the skills necessary to be a Death Eater.

This is one of the cool things about Rowling's writing: what is story in one book becomes theme in the other stories. Obviously, she uses secondary characters (Ron, Hermione, Hagrid) a lot more for this than tertiary characters like Snape and Dumbledore: but there still is something in every story where Snape serves as a point or counterpoint to the story, and where he contributes to the general themes of the series.

Great point - Snape chose what to do without knowing all the facts. No one knew the Marauders were Animagi.I don't see how that was important, personally. He knew they were "sneaking out". Where does it say that he knew they were "sneaking to the Whomping Willow"?

He knew that Lupin was "ill" every month on the full moon. Severus suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, he'd obviously discussed this with Lily several times before. He wanted to know where Lupin went every month. He'd seen Madam Pomfrey and Lupin crossing the grounds to the Whomping Willow. He already knew that students were forbidden to go near the Whomping Willow because of Davey Gudgeon, who'd nearly lost an eye trying to get close and touch the tree.

I'm sorry, but Severus was certainly intelligent enough, as proven in the novels, to figure out Lupin was a werewolf, and that if Madam Pomfrey was trotting him off to the Whomping Willow, he should have known the dangers he'd be facing.

Fact is, I believe he did know, but that it temporarily slipped his mind because he was so intent on "catching" the Marauder's in the act. Much as he knew Lupin was a werewolf and was in need of his final dose of Wolfsbane Potion, but it truly slipped his mind -- all thoughts flew out the window -- in order to "catch" Lupin and possibly Black, in the act again.

I'm not blaming Severus for being curious or sneaking out of bounds or for nearly coming face to face with a grown werewolf, or for wanting to catch the Marauder's in wrong doing.

He should have questioned why Sirius might share such information with him. Actually, I find it rather improbable that Severus would simply accept anything the Marauder's had to say without questioning why they'd happily share the info with him. IMO, it is highly probably that Sirius set it up to appear that he was talking of the secret to someone else {since James didn't know in advance & neither did Remus, this leaves Wormtail} and so was "unknowingly overheard" by Severus rather than just telling Severus how to get around the tree.

Great post, Wimsey. I agree with a huge chunk of it. :)

Originally Posted by boushh:
Another possibility is that he thought he would be seeing Lupin transformed but that he would be restrained in some way. I can see him rationalizing things like that too.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot:
Again, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I think it's definitely possible he convinced himself that if Lupin was a werewolf then to keep him from harming others they'd have him locked up or chained up and guarded.

You are also forgetting that Snape saw Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin to the tree, so he knew it was some sort of illness. The werewolf idea was just an educated guess. Lily calls it a "theory." But the very fact that Sirius told him to go into the tunnel would make Snape feel that it wasn't true - he didn't expect that Sirius would send him to his possible death, even if he was a bully in the past.

Also, in my opinion there is obviously a flaw with the Whomping Willow in that it can be stopped just by poking a stick at it. Snape would have expected Dumbledore to think up a better safeguard than that to protect the school from a werewolf. But Dumbledore never reckoned that the Marauders would outsmart him - another flaw in his plans. :)

I respect your view and presupposing that this is all correct it still begs two questions:

1. Why would Sirius give Snape information on how to access proof against the Marauaders that would land them in trouble or get them expelled - with no consequences for Snape? That is what Snape would have to be thinking if he planned to get them in trouble somehow and that "trouble" didn't turn out to be a werewolf. (Including, why would he give Snape a means to go view a chained up Lupin - with no consequence for Snape?)

2. It was the school authorities that demanded the kids stay away from the area. Quite obviously the tree could be made non-dangerous, so that wasn't the reason - and as Lily pointed out, they knew there was 'something down there' other than the tree. So if Snape thought it might not be a werewolf, he had to have at least considered an alternative danger, imo.

Those two points seem to work against Snape not feeling he might be in danger and also against the idea that he believed he could get the Marauders in trouble in any way except finding proof that Lupin was a werewolf, imo. But maybe there is something else I have not taken into consideration?

And as for who Harry summoned through the stone, well, I would not read too much into that. This is literature, after all, and Rowling had to think about both presentation and story. Snape had just gotten his big send-off: having him return would have been anticlimactic. Dumbledore was about to get his big return and swansong: it would have diminished that somewhat had he turned up early. This really was about Sirius, James and Lily: it was their "so long, and thanks for the fish." Lupin is sort of a Ringo here, but even he gets a key line about his death being worth it if it creates a world where his son can live without prejudice.

Actually JKR explicitly told us why she wrote this scene. She said she envisioned it back when she began writing the series in the PS/SS era. She wished to have Harry surrounded by his loved ones just before the end and she imagined Sirius, Lupin, James and Lily - with Peter missing. She said she saw it in terms of the three first generation heroes and that there had been four, but one of them betrayed the others so then there would just be the three and they would be there with Lily to send off the second generation hero, Harry. (The statement was in response to the question: why Fred was not in the scene.)

Also, in that same statement, JKR said that Lupin went to the final battle explicitly for Harry - that he did not have to fight what with his new family and all and having just accepted them, but he wanted to for Harry. So presumably Harry understood this and wished to direct his most pressing statement of culpability mainly to the father of his godson, Lupin. I felt this was to help readers understand that Harry was not calling Lupin along as the 'Ringo' - because he would have called Fred before doing that, imo.

Still, there does seem to be genuine displeasure that his (Snape's) lasting tribute to Lily was not going to last: detestable though Snape found James the Younger (who, it seems, walked through the world with his eyes shut in more ways than one in Snape's mind!), Harry was the last of her.

Yes ... I see nothing in canon that indicates Snape would feel any pleasure at Harry's forthcoming death. The opposite, in fact. If he couldn't bring himself to feel any warmth towards the boy -- and his violent reaction to Dumbledore asking him if he had come to care for Harry, after all, indicates that he really couldn't bring himself to do that -- then Harry's death was still not something he felt happy about, even if he couldn't bring himself to treat Harry nicely.

I think that this gets into raw story. At this point, the story reaches its zenith: Harry fully realizes that Dumbledore had been, after all, acting for the Greater Good, and that Dumbledore was sacrificing Harry not because he (Dumbledore) was getting some Machiavellian buzz off of it, but because Voldemort had (accidentally) necessitated Harry's death by accidentally making Harry a Horcrux all of those years ago.

Raw Story is how I make sense of it.

I don't find Rowling a terribly logical writer in many ways. But logic is not the most important thing in Story. I like Story for what it is, and the HP saga works for me primarily on the emotional level. Certainly Snape's story, and Dumbledore's motives, work for me on that level.

And as for who Harry summoned through the stone, well, I would not read too much into that. This is literature, after all, and Rowling had to think about both presentation and story. Snape had just gotten his big send-off: having him return would have been anticlimactic. Dumbledore was about to get his big return and swansong: it would have diminished that somewhat had he turned up early. This really was about Sirius, James and Lily: it was their "so long, and thanks for the fish."

:lol::lol::lol: :tu::tu::tu: Yes. :)

Lupin as Ringo. :p He is, really, isn't he?

Serpentcide? ROFL... sorry that cracked me up.

Actually JKR explicitly told us why she wrote this scene. She said she envisioned it back when she began writing the series in the PS/SS era. Indeed, Rowling did say that. What I wrote simply rephrased it in terms of particular literary components. Pearl is correct that Rowling is not always the most logical of writers, at least in terms of narrative construct. (Her plots are extremely logical, at least in the sense of their being syllogisms.) However, stories do not need to be "logical" so much as they need to make sense: that is the difference between reality and fiction, as so many authors have noted! This is the point in the tale where we are getting the "grand finale" of the story: all of the important elements are going off with big bangs in a rapid sequence. The Snape Firecracker is different from the Marauders Firecracker, so it needs to go off at a different time.

As for Lupin, yes, I obviously agree, having written essentially the same thing above! :cool: What is critical to story at this point is Harry seeing that people have died for him and for the Greater Good (as they perceive Harry to be the tool for achieving the Greater Good), and that he now must die for the rest.

At any rate, having Snape appear in this scene would have killed the emotional intensity of his farewell, and having Dumbledore appear would have killed the emotional intensity of his "reappearance." People can make what they will of the fact that Harry's parents appeared to him from behind the Veil whereas Dumbledore was playing the Ferryman. (Good thing that Harry did not leave any galleons on his eyes!)

Yes ... I see nothing in canon that indicates Snape would feel any pleasure at Harry's forthcoming death. The opposite, in fact. If he couldn't bring himself to feel any warmth towards the boy -- and his violent reaction to Dumbledore asking him if he had come to care for Harry, after all, indicates that he really couldn't bring himself to do that -- then Harry's death was still not something he felt happy about, even if he couldn't bring himself to treat Harry nicely. The word "conflicted" comes to mind here! :p Seriously, weird though it is, dealing with the death (or imminent death) of someone with whom you have a love-hate relationship often is much more difficulat than dealing with the (imminent) death of someone with whom you have a love-love relationship. (And, of course, hate-hate is easy.... :cool:)
Lupin as Ringo. :p He is, really, isn't he?Does anybody else here hum "It Don't Come Easy" when they think of Lupin? :rockon:

I know this is a very simplistic view, but I think that Snape's curiosity just got the better of him when he followed Lupin into the Whomping Willow. I don't think he could help himself, even if he did have some nagging doubts. As Dumbledore said, 'Curiosity is not a sin. But we should exercise caution with our curiosity.'

I know this is a very simplistic view, but I think that Snape's curiosity just got the better of him when he followed Lupin into the Whomping Willow. I don't think he could help himself, even if he did have some nagging doubts. As Dumbledore said, 'Curiosity is not a sin. But we should exercise caution with our curiosity.'

I think that is actually quite possible. Everyone does things without thinking sometimes, and teenagers probably do it more often than others.
Also Snape had probably been forming his theory for a long time and wanted it proved, if he either didn't think about the risk or didn't think there was a risk then that could well be all the pushing he needed. We have been presuming generally that Snape wanted to get the marauders into trouble but really there is nothing that says that was his motive for listening to, and following, what Sirius had said.

I know this is a very simplistic view, but I think that Snape's curiosity just got the better of him when he followed Lupin into the Whomping Willow. I don't think he could help himself, even if he did have some nagging doubts. As Dumbledore said, 'Curiosity is not a sin. But we should exercise caution with our curiosity.'I just think it's a funny coincidence that Snape has twice gone to the Whomping Willow and there was danger both times - werewolf/Sirius/Remus untransformed yet in need of his potion - at the end of the tunnel.

We have been presuming generally that Snape wanted to get the marauders into trouble but really there is nothing that says that was his motive for listening to, and following, what Sirius had said.That presumption is based upon what was shown in canon. His motive was Lily, according to him. He wanted to show her that 'they' weren't as wonderful as everyone seemed to think they were. To do that, he had to 'catch' them in wrongdoing.

But we also know that he and the Marauder's didn't get on, that there was bullying occurring, that there was a mutual hex war on-going, and that Dumbledore classified Harry/Draco discord as being similar to James/Severus. We definitely saw Draco out of bed and out of bounds in an attempt to get Harry into trouble.

I think that is actually quite possible. Everyone does things without thinking sometimes, and teenagers probably do it more often than others.
:agree: The part of the brain that deals with "risk assessment" and assessing long term consequences of our actions is still developing during the teenage years which is why teenagers have this reputation for doing cateclysmically stupid things.

I

That presumption is based upon what was shown in canon. His motive was Lily, according to him. He wanted to show her that 'they' weren't as wonderful as everyone seemed to think they were. To do that, he had to 'catch' them in wrongdoing.



True, but we have kind of been presuming he wanted to get them in trouble with the staff. Really he just wanted to catch them, and to prove his theory. Does that make sense? It wasn't so much about getting them in trouble as in catching them?

True, but we have kind of been presuming he wanted to get them in trouble with the staff. Really he just wanted to catch them, and to prove his theory. Does that make sense? It wasn't so much about getting them in trouble as in catching them?It does and it doesn't.

Catching them out and not reporting it doesn't get them "caught", therefore there's no "punishment", and his motive would have been for naught because the person he was interested in convincing "Lily" wouldn't just believe without "proof". IMO.

So it's a circular argument in my mind.

What is critical to story at this point is Harry seeing that people have died for him and for the Greater Good (as they perceive Harry to be the tool for achieving the Greater Good), and that he now must die for the rest.

I agree - and that was the distinction. Those he called back, his loved ones, had died for him, specifically, because they loved him, over and above any notions about the greater good, whereas Snape gave his life for the greater good...but Dumbledore had to actually choose to do so because he was dying anyway. So I think he took many factors into consideration, not just the greater good, but the greater present and near future as well. :lol:.

Edit: I didn't see Jessica's post. I retract the statement.

The Whomping Willow incident was a stupid impulse that he gave into not thinking of possible consequences.
The other was service freely given with full knowledge that it could possibly lead to his death.
I think Sev came to the same realization as many others in the series did, willing to take the chance despite knowing the dangers: There are some things worth dying for.

True, but we have kind of been presuming he wanted to get them in trouble with the staff. Really he just wanted to catch them, and to prove his theory. Does that make sense? It wasn't so much about getting them in trouble as in catching them?

I think he would only be able to get them in trouble in this instance as Snape knew that they were not present when he went in (at least not Sirius and since he'd been watching Lupin, I assume he knew the others were not present also to "catch" at anything).

But Snape also knew that Pompy was escorting Lupin, so he was aware that he could not get Lupin in trouble with the staff (expose him to them - well if he gave the matter even a little thought he would have realized.) So that is why I feel his idea was to confirm his theory that Lupin was a werewolf, and then expose him through other means - telling all of his friends and get the information out to the ministry in that way (his buddy Lucius' family it was said was always buttering up the Ministry). He could also say that Sirius told him how to stop the tree and he'd seen the Marauders sneaking out, and thus, there would be enough evidence to provide that the Marauders were likely consorting with a dark creature. This would of course implicate at least Pompy and Dumbledore as well - and perhaps much of the staff at Hogwarts. Snape was going for broke, imo. That is why he felt it was worth it to assume the risk of danger.

However, when he actually arrived and realized he was going to have to confront the werewolf and then James rescued him - I think his pride and arrogance dropped to an all time low. He allowed himself to be rescued and I would imagine he understood the jig was up if James told him he was going to Dumbledore first thing. Further, he was estopped from harming Lupin or the Marauaders by Dumbledore and so the whole thing ended in his humiliation rather than his victory in reality, imo.

Thus Snape's comments relating to that incident, as we saw in canon, focused on the other parties, construing their actions in the most negative terms while not speaking about his thoughts or actions at all (POA). Hence, to me he was saving face in his own mind. The odd bit is that he hoped that Dumbledore would recall the matter in the way he did or something - because otherwise it makes no sense that he would attempt to accuse Sirius to Dumbledore. But Dumbledore reminded him immediately that he remembered everything - not just Sirius' part in the scenario, but Snape's also and that unspoken censure of Snape's behavior in that matter is what quieted Snape at once, imo. But I feel Snape did reveal his part for the reader and Harry in the memories, allowing for an understanding of Dumbledore's statement in POA and revealing Snape's culpability relative to voluntarily stopping the tree and moving into the tunnel - and his motivation as well.

Hey, guys, if you see someone mentioning a subject that a mod has asked to be dropped, the best thing to do is ignore it, not respond to it or quote it just to say you can't respond.

Thanks.

The Whomping Willow incident was a stupid impulse that he gave into not thinking of possible consequences.
The other was service freely given with full knowledge that it could possibly lead to his death.
I think Sev came to the same realization as many others in the series did, willing to take the chance despite knowing the dangers: There are some things worth dying for.

I agree, but I think exposing your enemies is not one of them. However, when Snape was young he made a lot of bad choices, imo, and the upshot was that it led him down the dark path. JKR places a lot of emphasis on choices, but I felt that the specific choices she showed were mainly feeding into Snape's overall character arc, so we saw those that helped explain his viewpoint of life during the two relevant periods rather than just a lot of little separate incidents to be considered in a vaccuum. So in other words it would make sense that what Snape felt was worth dying for would differ when he was young and headed toward becoming a DE as opposed to later when he turned sides. We saw this with Draco too, imo, to some extent.

I have written this elsewhere, but I would like to post it here too. Does anyone think that Sirius owed Snape a life debt for the werewolf incident?

I do. And I also think Sirius did not fulfil it in his lifetime.

I have written this elsewhere, but I would like to post it here too. Does anyone think that Sirius owed Snape a life debt for the werewolf incident?

I do. And I also think Sirius did not fulfil it in his lifetime.

Life debts are a product of "saving" someone's life. Snape did not save Sirius' life, so there would be no life debt as I see it.

Life debts are a product of "saving" someone's life. Snape did not save Sirius' life, so there would be no life debt as I see it.

What Wick said.

It could also be claimed that James saved Snape's life in the 'werewolf incident'. In which case, Severus would owe James a life debt, wouldn't he?

*braces self for fallout* :whistle:


I actually wanted to raise a new issue, hopefully an uncontroversial one. :p (One can always live in hope!)

I am always very intrigued by how Rowling writes Snape's dialogue. :) He is very elegant in his speech, with old-fashioned diction ... this holds true, mostly, even when he is in a towering rage!

Dumbledore speaks very elegantly too. So does Bellatrix, come to that, and Narcissa.

It's just something I really like about Snape and of course it all adds to the mystery of his character that JKR was building up from book one. I mean, the first speech we ever hear him make, about stoppering death and so on ... it totally grabs the attention. ;) :)

What do you think Snape's elegant speech says about him?

Of course I always now imagine him with a North of England accent, since it is clear his roots are as a Northern working class lad. :love:

What Wick said.

It could also be claimed that James saved Snape's life in the 'werewolf incident'. In which case, Severus would owe James a life debt, wouldn't he?




I think JKR confirmed there was no life debt between Snape and James. :)

Considering Snape thought he was set up to be injured/killed, it is unlikely he would see there being any life debt.

I think JKR confirmed there was no life debt between Snape and James. :)

Ah. :) I didn't know that. (I rarely read her interviews).

Considering Snape thought he was set up to be injured/killed, it is unlikely he would see there being any life debt.

Oh, of course. :sigh:

OK, next. ;)

I think JKR confirmed there was no life debt between Snape and James. :)

Considering Snape thought he was set up to be injured/killed, it is unlikely he would see there being any life debt.

Snape later came to understand he had been wrong in his idea that James was invovled in setting him up. I think he did feel he owed a debt to James for the rescue after discovering the truth. At that point he would have realized that James risked his life to save him, despite having played no part in the matter at all.

There is no canon at all that Snape continued to believe any part of his original statement after discovering the truth. In my judgment, to say that he did is nothing more than pure speculation.

BTW: JKR said that there was no magic associated with Life Debts. That it was just something that people felt after someone had saved their lives - as Draco did after his ROR rescue by Harry. A man of honor would indeed feel indebted - and that does show that Peter had a twinge of honor, even to the last. I tend to feel Snape too had at least as much honor as Peter and so would similarly feel indebted to some degree at least.

Peter too could have accused Harry of only sparing him (as his father would have) in order to save the necks of Sirius and Remus. And it is true, they would be saved from becoming murderous thugs. But Harry's action also showed compassion in saving Peter's life and that is what Peter recognized. Snape I think was at least as intelligent as Peter, likely more so, and would reach a similar conclusion. However, defending Snape being one of my least favorite past times, I don't wish to argue the point.

What Wick said.

I am always very intrigued by how Rowling writes Snape's dialogue. :) He is very elegant in his speech, with old-fashioned diction ... this holds true, mostly, even when he is in a towering rage!

Dumbledore speaks very elegantly too. So does Bellatrix, come to that, and Narcissa.

It's just something I really like about Snape and of course it all adds to the mystery of his character that JKR was building up from book one. I mean, the first speech we ever hear him make, about stoppering death and so on ... it totally grabs the attention. ;) :)

What do you think Snape's elegant speech says about him?

Of course I always now imagine him with a North of England accent, since it is clear his roots are as a Northern working class lad. :love:

I have to say that I adore the way Snape speaks. He chooses his words very carefully. However - I just cannot imagine him having a northern accent - You can blame Alan Rickman for that!
I am now trying to imagine Severus Snape speaking and sounding like Sean Bean!! :lol: I just can't get my head around it!
I am also inclined to think that he would have perhaps "lost" his accent in Slytherin house as his Death Eater ambitions grew.

The big question of course Pearl is Yorkshire or Lancashire. A lot of people imagine Snape as hailing from Yorkshire, but for some reason (perhaps because I lived in Manchester for 3 years and read "North and South" around the time I read some of the early Potter books) I always imagine him as coming from Manchester.

i agree. technically he didnt save his life. so there is no life-debt

I never imagined Snape with a Northern accent either. Maybe because he is so eloquentI imagined he wouldn't have a strong accent. It's possible he didn't show his accent, he either hid it or had none in the first place. I'm from Birmingham which is known for it's strong accent but my accent isn't strong at all, you can only tell it on an occasional word, maybe Snape is like this too?

I have to say that I adore the way Snape speaks. He chooses his words very carefully. However - I just cannot imagine him having a northern accent - You can blame Alan Rickman for that!
I am now trying to imagine Severus Snape speaking and sounding like Sean Bean!! :lol: I just can't get my head around it!

Sean Bean?? :p No, I can't imagine that either. :lol:

I am also inclined to think that he would have perhaps "lost" his accent in Slytherin house as his Death Eater ambitions grew.

Oh, I don't know. There's no evidence of the Death Eaters showing snobbery about how someone speaks. :lol: Their bigotry lay in other directions. :whistle: Draco, however, does seem to echo upper-class English snobbery, and his pureblood family did seem to feel themselves true aristocrats. :whistle: So, yes, maybe Snape would have felt pressure to lose some of his 'common' working class roots ... especially as he had lived so close to Muggles during his childhood. That would not have been something to advertise to his DE mates!

The big question of course Pearl is Yorkshire or Lancashire. A lot of people imagine Snape as hailing from Yorkshire, but for some reason (perhaps because I lived in Manchester for 3 years and read "North and South" around the time I read some of the early Potter books) I always imagine him as coming from Manchester.

Yes, Yorkshire seems entirely too rural and idyllic for Spinner's End. :) I'd say Manchester or elsewhere in Lancashire, definitely (not that Lancs doesn't have its lovely spots, but Spinner's End is definitely industrial).

P.S. I loved the TV dramatisation of 'North and South', with Richard Armitage. :love: Haven't read the book though! -- I really should. To keep on topic, Thornton certainly glowered a lot in a rather Snape-like way. :lol:

Snape later came to understand he had been wrong in his idea that James was invovled in setting him up. I think he did feel he owed a debt to James for the rescue after discovering the truth. At that point he would have realized that James risked his life to save him, despite having played no part in the matter at all.

I was referring to what he may have felt at the time. It would have been very difficult for someone to feel a debt to someone else when they continued to torment that person simply for existing. It's not going to come across as though James saved him because he valued his right to exist. It would seem more like James did it to save his friends (Sirius and Lupin).

But, I think when he saved Harry during the Quidditch match or protecting him for that whole 1st year from Quirrel, it was enough to satisify the honour he felt towards any debt there. :)

I don't wish to argue the point.


I wasn't aware anyone was arguing.

i agree. technically he didnt save his life. so there is no life-debt

Welcome. :wave:

I never imagined Snape with a Northern accent either. Maybe because he is so eloquent I imagined he wouldn't have a strong accent. It's possible he didn't show his accent, he either hid it or had none in the first place. I'm from Birmingham which is known for it's strong accent but my accent isn't strong at all, you can only tell it on an occasional word, maybe Snape is like this too?

I can imagine that. :tu: I can't imagine him speaking broad Lancashire in class. :lol: And it's not just because of Rickman. :p

Of course, if Petunia and Lily grew up near Spinner's End, they ought to have had Northern accents too. :hmm:

Oh, I don't know. There's no evidence of the Death Eaters showing snobbery about how someone speaks. :lol: Their bigotry lay in other directions. :whistle: Draco, however, does seem to echo upper-class English snobbery, and his pureblood family did seem to feel themselves true aristocrats. :whistle: So, yes, maybe Snape would have felt pressure to lose some of his 'common' working class roots ... especially as he had lived so close to Muggles during his childhood. That would not have been something to advertise to his DE mates!



Maybe he would want a 'posh' accent to show he was better than everyone else because he was pureblood. I don't know really. I just find it hard to imagine him with a 'common' accent



Of course, if Petunia and Lily grew up near Spinner's End, they ought to have had Northern accents too. :hmm:

That's true, but I really can't imagine Petunia with a northern accent, not as an adult anyway. We know the Dursley's lived in Surry which is quite posh, maybe she picked up the accent there. That's a discussion for another thread though

What do you think Snape's elegant speech says about him?

Of course I always now imagine him with a North of England accent, since it is clear his roots are as a Northern working class lad. :love:

You mean sometihng like this.

'Thee'll be nay daft wand waving in't this class.'

And, during Occlumency classes when he calls Harry weak.

'Yo couldn't knock t'skin off rice puddin!'

:D Sorry, I just couldn't resist it. Actually, I think his speech would probably have changed. We know he came from a fairly poor area and I would think it very likely that he would have adopted the regional dialect of the area whilst growing up. Yet, Snape the Professor, as you pointed out does have elegant speech.


The big question of course Pearl is Yorkshire or Lancashire. A lot of people imagine Snape as hailing from Yorkshire, but for some reason (perhaps because I lived in Manchester for 3 years and read "North and South" around the time I read some of the early Potter books) I always imagine him as coming from Manchester.

I also imagine him being from Lancashire. Well, JKR lived in Manchester for a short time too, so maybe that's where she got her inspiration for Spinner's End.



P.S. I loved the TV dramatisation of 'North and South', with Richard Armitage. :love: Haven't read the book though! -- I really should. To keep on topic, Thornton certainly glowered a lot in a rather Snape-like way. :lol:

Yes, I loved that dramatisation too! I think Richard Armitage could actually have made quite a good Snape.

'Thee'll be nay daft wand waving in't this class.'

'Yo couldn't knock t'skin off rice puddin!'

:rotfl: :tu:

Yet, Snape the Professor, as you pointed out does have elegant speech.

As an adult, definitely. :agree: He sounds just like a normal kid when he's talking to Lily in their childhood, of course. :) ( :sigh: )

Yes, I loved that dramatisation too! I think Richard Armitage could actually have made quite a good Snape.

Indeed. :) But maybe rather too good-looking. :hmm: I know Snape has a Byronic vibe :D and how! :) but Richard is perhaps a bit too much in the handsome, brooding Mr Rochester mould. :drool:

I don't find Alan Rickman handsome in the conventional sense. Which in no way depreciates my appreciation of him. :eyebrows:

But we're talking Canon Snape here, of course, not movieverse. :lol: :)

Severus is not polished in his personal appearance, at all... and I would love to know why he doesn't seem to care about his appearance. The bad hygiene and weird clothes in his childhood to my mind point to some kind of neglect (a caring parent would have done something) and this lack of care for himself seems to continue on into his adulthood. :(

He saves all the refinement for his speech. :cool:

Richard is perhaps a bit too much in the handsome, brooding Mr Rochester mould. :drool:

Agreed! :)

Severus is not polished in his personal appearance, at all... and I would love to know why he doesn't seem to care about his appearance. The bad hygiene and weird clothes in his childhood to my mind point to some kind of neglect (a caring parent would have done something) and this lack of care for himself seems to continue on into his adulthood. :(

He saves all the refinement for his speech. :cool:

I think sometimes if you are not cared for then you don't learn to understand how to care for yourself. But, that aside if he considered his speech important it does make one wonder why he did not consider his appearance as important. Although, we never hear anything disparaging regarding his clothing as an adult.

I think sometimes if you are not cared for then you don't learn to understand how to care for yourself.

I think that's totally the case with him. :(

But, that aside if he considered his speech important it does make one wonder why he did not consider his appearance as important.

Severus definitely seems to pride himself on his intellect, I would say. :whistle:

Although, we never hear anything disparaging regarding his clothing as an adult.

Well, there's that 'grey nightshirt' in GoF. :whistle: Grey as in 'greying'?

I think that's totally the case with him. :(

Sadly, it seems so. :sad:

Severus definitely seems to pride himself on his intellect, I would say. :whistle:

I agree completely. He seems to value intellect and ability above superficial things such as appearence.

Well, there's that 'grey nightshirt' in GoF. :whistle: Grey as in 'greying'?

Hmm... maybe? I just read it as being the colour grey at the time. I would think that if his nightshirt was greying then that is how it would have been described. Lupin's clothes and appearance were described as being shabby, yet as far as I can remember,we are not given similar descriptions of Snape's clothes. Maybe, the Hogwarts House- elves took care of them. :)

Agreed! :)

I think sometimes if you are not cared for then you don't learn to understand how to care for yourself.

I think that's totally the case with him. :(

I think so too...


Severus definitely seems to pride himself on his intellect, I would say. :whistle:

I think so as well. I think that was there from a young age...


Sadly, it seems so. :sad:
Hmm... maybe? I just read it as being the colour grey at the time. I would think that if his nightshirt was greying then that is how it would have been described. Lupin's clothes and appearance were described as being shabby, yet as far as I can remember,we are not given similar descriptions of Snape's clothes. Maybe, the Hogwarts House- elves took care of them. :)

Yeah, I read it as being the color gray, also. It's sort of interesting considering many consider him to be a rather gray area sort of character. Woken up in the middle of the night without the time to put on the robes of the forbidding potions master, he runs out in gray night clothes...

I was referring to what he may have felt at the time. It would have been very difficult for someone to feel a debt to someone else when they continued to torment that person simply for existing. It's not going to come across as though James saved him because he valued his right to exist. It would seem more like James did it to save his friends (Sirius and Lupin).

Ah, well yeah - prior to knowing that is exactly how he looked at it. Additionally, as he continued to torment the Marauders for the same reasons, he wouldn't have been able to imagine himself ever saving one of them from danger, based on his mentality. I think he saw his enemies in terms of himself and James' act taken on its face would not allow him to continue in that belief. The truth was, they did not share Snape's budding death eater mentality, imo, but eschewed those values. Like Draco, I feel it was normal that Snape would not take note of that, but focus only on acts taken against him personally in aggression or retaliation. But that is why he reached such a inaccurate conclusion, imo.

But, I think when he saved Harry during the Quidditch match or protecting him for that whole 1st year from Quirrel, it was enough to satisify the honour he felt towards any debt there. :)

Well that is what Dumbledore believed also.

I wasn't aware anyone was arguing.

Then it is good you have me around to keep you informed. :lol:.

I'm no expert on British dialects, so I can't contribute to that part of the discussion. But I must put in that it's one of my favorite Snapey topics. :love:

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but there is an old essay at the HP Lexicon where someone makes the case for Spinner's End being in Manchester: http://www.hplex.info/essays/essay-spinners-end.html

Yeah, I read it as being the color gray, also. It's sort of interesting considering many consider him to be a rather gray area sort of character. Woken up in the middle of the night without the time to put on the robes of the forbidding potions master, he runs out in gray night clothes...

Ooooh! I love this! :D Most of the time we see Snape, he is wearing a "mask" of sorts. Even in the time when Voldemort was just vapor, Snape was definitely aware Voldemort would be back. And Snape had a spy job to prepare for. For personal and political reasons, he finds it necessary to take on the look of an evil DE. And it certainly fools the trio in book 1. ;)

Ooo, thanks for that link ignisia. Interesting stuff. There's a lot of good reasoning behind their conclusions.

Snape later came to understand he had been wrong in his idea that James was invovled in setting him up. I think he did feel he owed a debt to James for the rescue after discovering the truth. At that point he would have realized that James risked his life to save him, despite having played no part in the matter at all.

There is no canon at all that Snape continued to believe any part of his original statement after discovering the truth. In my judgment, to say that he did is nothing more than pure speculation.

BTW: JKR said that there was no magic associated with Life Debts. That it was just something that people felt after someone had saved their lives - as Draco did after his ROR rescue by Harry. A man of honor would indeed feel indebted - and that does show that Peter had a twinge of honor, even to the last. I tend to feel Snape too had at least as much honor as Peter and so would similarly feel indebted to some degree at least.

Peter too could have accused Harry of only sparing him (as his father would have) in order to save the necks of Sirius and Remus. And it is true, they would be saved from becoming murderous thugs. But Harry's action also showed compassion in saving Peter's life and that is what Peter recognized. Snape I think was at least as intelligent as Peter, likely more so, and would reach a similar conclusion. However, defending Snape being one of my least favorite past times, I don't wish to argue the point.

Of course, Severus Snape is an honorable man! :love:

However, I believe DD's comment to Harry (PS/SS) was in keeping with his promise to Severus to hide the best of him (and misdirection on the author's part).

"My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?" Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape's fereocious, anguished face. "If you insist . . ."

Is there really any doubt that Snape's protecting Harry was all about Lily?

Of course, Severus Snape is an honorable man! :love:

However, I believe DD's comment to Harry (PS/SS) was in keeping with his promise to Severus to hide the best of him (and misdirection on the author's part).

Is there really any doubt that Snape's protecting Harry was all about Lily?

Well as I said, I have no incentive to convince anyone that Snape viewed the matter in an honorable manner. I merely personally feel he did in this instance because he never stated otherwise in canon after finding out the truth. That he admitted his own culpability in the scenario in DH and emulated James when he tried to save Lupin (lightbulb moment for Snape - yes one can attempt to save the life of a hated enemy) was enough for me to reach that conclusion, but I respect that everyone will make of the canon what they like.

. . . but I respect that everyone will make of the canon what they like.

Yes, though everything I write is strictly MNTBHO*, I do try very hard to stick to what's actually on the page. :whistle:


*My Never To Be Humble Opinion (courtesy of Dr. Laura Schlessinger)

Then it is good you have me around to keep you informed. :lol:.

Thanks . . :lol:

Well as I said, I have no incentive to convince anyone that Snape viewed the matter in an honorable manner.

I don't think you need to try to convince many people here that Snape in honourable - certainly not me. :D


That he admitted his own culpability in the scenario in DH and emulated James when he tried to save Lupin (lightbulb moment for Snape - yes one can attempt to save the life of a hated enemy)

That is a very good parallel.

I think so too...

Yeah, I read it as being the color gray, also. It's sort of interesting considering many consider him to be a rather gray area sort of character. Woken up in the middle of the night without the time to put on the robes of the forbidding potions master, he runs out in gray night clothes...

I thought it was a grey nightshirt. I like that it could be symbolic of the type of character he is (spy), like his style of day clothes are a hint of what he is like too.

You mean sometihng like this.

'Thee'll be nay daft wand waving in't this class.'

And, during Occlumency classes when he calls Harry weak.

'Yo couldn't knock t'skin off rice puddin!'
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yes, I loved that dramatisation too! I think Richard Armitage could actually have made quite a good Snape.

Indeed. But maybe rather too good-looking. I know Snape has a Byronic vibe and how! but Richard is perhaps a bit too much in the handsome, brooding Mr Rochester mould.

Not sure about this. As a member of the Armitage Army (link in my sig :whistle: ) of course I agree that Richard is really far too good-looking to play Snape - he is also possibly a bit young - but I'm sure he could do old and ugly - actually I think he would enjoy it - he has said he'd like to do something which involved uglying himself up - and I think he could pull it off - And of course he has the accent if required - perhaps he could do Snape with just a hint of Northern. :D :drool:

ETA: RA was born in 1971 so he would be about the right age to play Snape now (mid-late thirties) It's sad that this makes me so happy :lol:

Yep, Snape was still a young man when he died. Not even 40. :sigh:.

The one big way in which Rickman in the role is misleading, IMO.

Yep, Snape was still a young man when he died. Not even 40. :sigh:.

The one big way in which Rickman in the role is misleading, IMO.

Yeah, but all of the ages of the adult characters are messed up in the movies so it works out. :lol:

I wonder if he was the youngest head of house at Hogwarts. I mean when did he get that job? I assume it was when he was hired if he was replacing Slughorn. I can't remember if we know this for sure though. If that's right he would have been what, 21-22?

ETA: RA was born in 1971 so he would be about the right age to play Snape now (mid-late thirties) It's sad that this makes me so happy :lol:

I completely understand. :lol:

And I agree. He'd have made a very good Severus. :)

Yeah, but all of the ages of the adult characters are messed up in the movies so it works out. :lol:

It works out in terms of the assorted characters that have to be in his age cohort, seeming to fit, yes. :) But for people inclined to do the maths, it would make Snape's youthful mistakes, occur in his mid 40's. :lol:

I also wonder whom Lily dated for all those years, before she finally succumbed to the charms of balding, glasses wearing James. Or did she decide to defer having kids until her biological clock started ticking?

Back on the topic of the character in the books...to me the ages of the Marauder characters and Snape matter in how I perceive them. Perhaps a child reader would feel differently, since they are all, at any rate, definitely grownups.

It works out in terms of the assorted characters that have to be in his age cohort, seeming to fit, yes. :) But for people inclined to do the maths, it would make Snape's youthful mistakes, occur in his mid 40's. :lol:

I also wonder whom Lily dated for all those years, before she finally succumbed to the charms of balding, glasses wearing James. Or did she decide to defer having kids until her biological clock started ticking?

:lol: To all of that.

Back on the topic of the character in the books...to me the ages of the Marauder characters and Snape matter in how I perceive them. Perhaps a child reader would feel differently, since they are all, at any rate, definitely grownups.

I agree. I think they were all very young in the grand scheme of things, but to a young person it might not seem that way.

It works out in terms of the assorted characters that have to be in his age cohort, seeming to fit, yes. :) But for people inclined to do the maths, it would make Snape's youthful mistakes, occur in his mid 40's. :lol:

I also wonder whom Lily dated for all those years, before she finally succumbed to the charms of balding, glasses wearing James. Or did she decide to defer having kids until her biological clock started ticking?

And his hair somehow turned brown to boot. But it was okay because Lily was looking into her son's blue eyes and thinking how much they looked like hers. :rotfl: They are all too old in the movies, I agree.

Back on the topic of the character in the books...to me the ages of the Marauder characters and Snape matter in how I perceive them. Perhaps a child reader would feel differently, since they are all, at any rate, definitely grownups.

Yeah, I felt that way also, if I understand you correctly. Sirius and Lupin were rather shocking when I first saw them. To be honest I hadn't thought much about Snape's age until that point and then he became shocking too. It was like they could all give McGonagall a run for the money - well not quite that old, but still...

Whereas she was about 50 when she taught them all Transfiguration, yes. :D

I don't think we had much of a clue to the ages of Snape and the Potters until later, but I may be misremembering. Were we told in PS/SS that the Potters married and had Harry sjhortly after leaving school? In that case we knew they were all young, of course, since as reflected in recent discussion here, the Snape/James school rivalry was used by Albus to explain Snape's motivations to Harry, somewhat disingenuously, I would add.

I meant to reply to this earlier but was completely distracted by the mention of Richard Armitage!
Severus is not polished in his personal appearance, at all... and I would love to know why he doesn't seem to care about his appearance. The bad hygiene and weird clothes in his childhood to my mind point to some kind of neglect (a caring parent would have done something) and this lack of care for himself seems to continue on into his adulthood.
I agree that bad hygiene and weird clothes indicate neglect to some extent.

I would also like to point out that poor hygiene and lack of care about one's appearance are symptoms of depression, as are insomnia and emotional outbursts as we sometimes see Snape display.

IMO Snape is clinically depressed which is not really surprising. Bereavment is recognised as one of the main triggers for clinical depression and while most people wouold come out of it eventually on their own I think that Snape stays depressed because of the guilt he is carrying.

Depression isn't so much about "feeling sad" as supressing (and repressing) all feeling because the feelings are too painful. People suffering from depression often withdraw into themselves and come across as cold or uncaring. They can also be highly volatile when a situation becomes to much for them to handle and they are unable to contain all their repressed emotions, and express those emotions as anger.

So Snape feels intensely guilty for the part he played in causing Lily's death, but because this is too painful for him he suppresses and represses it. He also blames Sirius (until PoA) and by focusing on the part Sirius played in her death he is able to direct a lot of the anger and loathing he feels towards himself towards Sirius. This is true to a lesser extent about James whom he also blames for Lily's death. In both cases he is syphoning off the blame and loathing that he feels towards himself and transfering it onto Sirius and James whom he already hates anyway.

Thoughts anybody?

I think you're right on the money, CathyWeasley. It's the way I see things too more or less. So between his background and the likelihood that many of his quirks can be signs of depression it makes sense that he wasn't the most spiffy looking guy at Hogwarts.

I think sometimes if you are not cared for then you don't learn to understand how to care for yourself. But, that aside if he considered his speech important it does make one wonder why he did not consider his appearance as important. Although, we never hear anything disparaging regarding his clothing as an adult.

I agree. If you're always treated one way, it's very hard to think of yourself in other terms. I also have to wonder how much he actually *cared* about himself. He's carrying around a LOT of baggage, probably more than anyone else in the Potter Universe, and I have to agree with the discussion regarding the fact Snape very likely suffered from depression. I'll comment more on that later, but a lot of folks with depression truly don't care about themselves any longer.

Severus definitely seems to pride himself on his intellect, I would say.

I think this is the only thing Snape ever felt he excelled at. We KNOW he's intelligent. Look at the notes he made in his potions books. He reworked a lot of potions that were taught for learning. He seemed to figure out a lot of things that other folks either never thought of, or didn't try. We also know he's one of the few, per Lupin, that would be able to brew the wolfsbane potion. Snape wasn't an athlete, he wasn't popular. Let's face it, he was pretty much the wizarding world's version of trailer trash. No seemed to EXPECT him to succeed in anything either. I highly doubt he had any kind of support from the homefront. Lily was likely his sole support and confidant (Sorry but I still can't lump Mulciber and Avery into that category.) But he was SMART and he knew how to use that.

I agree that bad hygiene and weird clothes indicate neglect to some extent.

I would also like to point out that poor hygiene and lack of care about one's appearance are symptoms of depression, as are insomnia and emotional outbursts as we sometimes see Snape display.

IMO Snape is clinically depressed which is not really surprising. Bereavment is recognised as one of the main triggers for clinical depression and while most people wouold come out of it eventually on their own I think that Snape stays depressed because of the guilt he is carrying.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. Not only is he carrying a lot of guilt, but his entire life is about deceit. He has to deceive Voldemort (Whom he has no reason to suspect won't return at some point), his students, the staff, Harry, and damn near everyone else he ever comes into contact with. The only person he doesn't have to deceive is Dumbledore and after hiding that much of yourself away from everyone, I would imagine it would be awful hard to let that part of yourself go again. I also imagine having to live your life as one big lie would also eventually eat at you as well. I'm curious to know how Snape would have lived once Voldemort was gone. Would he have been able to recover that part of himself he locked away?

Back on the topic of the character in the books...to me the ages of the Marauder characters and Snape matter in how I perceive them. Perhaps a child reader would feel differently, since they are all, at any rate, definitely grownups.

As someone who grew up reading the books, I would say that this is the case. In the early years, I did not make much of a differentiation between say, Snape and McGonagall...except that Minerva was a "nice grownup" and Snape was a "mean grownup". :yuhup: That Minerva was 71 and Snape was 31 didn't exactly mean too much to me.
As I got older, the difference in age between the adult characters started becoming more apparent for me.

I meant to reply to this earlier but was completely distracted by the mention of Richard Armitage!

Don't worry, it's an easy thing to be distracted by. ;)


As for Snape having depression...
I might think so, except that I have definitely heard that listlessness is a major symptom, and Snape is not exactly lounging around, staring into space or losing interest in his potions. :hmm:

I'm curious to know how Snape would have lived once Voldemort was gone. Would he have been able to recover that part of himself he locked away?

I've always wondered this myself. Snape, unfortunately, was pretty much raised for the job of spy. Being an outcast/bullying victim and living in a neglectful or possibly abusive home will definitely hone one's sneaking, spying, hiding, and eavesdropping abilities. Harry, for instance, is able to sneak around quite well, especially after having to evade Dudley and sneak down to the kitchen for some more food if he's not being fed.

Can Snape truly break away from the duty that dominated his life? I would say partly. It really depends on how able he is, IMO, to reach out to people, because that is what truly set child!Sev apart from what we see of him later. And we know he can reach out and make friends: we see it with Dumbledore, McGonagall, and (on some level) Harry. But it's never an easy or fast process with him; his first introduction with Lily failed spectacularly (adorable though it was).

As for Snape having depression...
I might think so, except that I have definitely heard that listlessness is a major symptom, and Snape is not exactly lounging around, staring into space or losing interest in his potions. :hmm:

I agree, Ignisia! Another major symptom of depression is not being able to cope with the day to day matters, which again we don't see any evidence of from Snape. Although , I am sure he did suffer from depression at times, I am more inclined to think that he was suffering from shame brought on by his feeling of guilt.

Shame is caused by the consciousness of guilt and is a more internalised emotion than guilt. We feel guilt when we regret actions we have have taken. We see this from Snape in his meeting with Dumbledore on the hillside. In fact, Dumbledore actually uses Snape's guilt in order to influence him into agreeing to protect Harry. Shame, focuses on disappointment of what we are, or have become, it is personal, and is a painful emotion. I think that Snape as an intellegent man must have realised that if he had listened to Lily he would not have gone down the path of becoming a Death Eater. I think this would have contributed to his sense of shame of what he had become. Symptoms of shame include:
Seeking Power and perfection.

No matter how you view Snapes teaching methods, he was succesful and expected his pupils to succeed.
'I expect you all to scrape an Acceptable in your OWL, or suffer my... displeasure.'
Also, we know Slytherin had won the house cup seven years in a row, and Snape must have had some influence in this.

Withdrawral from social interaction

This is more difficult to ascertain as we don't see Snape in his leisure hours. However, I certainly did not get the impression that he enjoyed socialising. The only time we see him in such a situation is at Slughorn's party, where is described by Slughorn as"skulking".

Attacking or striking out at other people.

In an attempt to feel better about their shame, people will often at times strike out at others in the hopes that they will be lifted up by bringing others down. I think the evidence for this is seen in Snape's behaviour in the classroom.

Blaming other people

In other words, diverting the blame. Well, the scene in the Shrieking Shack springs to mind here. Here he blames James, Lupin and Sirius. However, at the time he did feel he had good reasons to blame Sirius. Although, in my opinion I feel Snape is constantly aware of his own feelings of guilt.

If one is unable to confront one's guilt and appologise to the injured party/ies shame often ensues. Well, Snape didn't have the opportunity to apologise for ten years, and by then would have become so entrenched in the cycle of shame.

I might think so, except that I have definitely heard that listlessness is a major symptom, and Snape is not exactly lounging around, staring into space or losing interest in his potions.
I agree, Ignisia! Another major symptom of depression is not being able to cope with the day to day matters, which again we don't see any evidence of from Snape.
Good point! You're right - Snape shows no sign of listlessness or "lack of interest" in day to day life and hi surroundings.

Now onto shame and guilt:

Shame is caused by the consciousness of guilt and is a more internalised emotion than guilt. I would only add that shame is a feeling whereas guilt is a judgement. By that I mean we judge that someone is guilty of doing something wrong and if that someone is ourselves we may feel remorse and shame.


Symptoms of shame include:
Seeking Power and perfection.
No matter how you view Snapes teaching methods, he was succesful and expected his pupils to succeed.
'I expect you all to scrape an Acceptable in your OWL, or suffer my... displeasure.'
Also, we know Slytherin had won the house cup seven years in a row, and Snape must have had some influence in this.

Withdrawral from social interaction
This is more difficult to ascertain as we don't see Snape in his leisure hours. However, I certainly did not get the impression that he enjoyed socialising. The only time we see him in such a situation is at Slughorn's party, where is described by Slughorn as"skulking".

Attacking or striking out at other people.
In an attempt to feel better about their shame, people will often at times strike out at others in the hopes that they will be lifted up by bringing others down. I think the evidence for this is seen in Snape's behaviour in the classroom.

Blaming other people
In other words, diverting the blame. Well, the scene in the Shrieking Shack springs to mind here. Here he blames James, Lupin and Sirius. However, at the time he did feel he had good reasons to blame Sirius. Although, in my opinion I feel Snape is constantly aware of his own feelings of guilt. This is absolutely spot on for Snape!

If one is unable to confront one's guilt and appologise to the injured party/ies shame often ensues. Well, Snape didn't have the opportunity to apologise for ten years, and by then would have become so entrenched in the cycle of shame.Yeah the apology important, but Snape is a very judgemental but not a very merciful person so the weight of guilt and shame would have been very great.
I don't think he saw Harry as someone requiring an apology - at least not at first. I think he regarded Lily as the wronged one - as is shown by the nature of his worst memory, and Harry as partly responsible for his mothers death because she died to save him. As such Harry had to constantly prove himself worthy of her immense sacrifice in Snape's eyes, and was naturally found to be lacking, because nobody could live up to that.
I do think however that over time - from Ootp onwards - that he began to recognise that Harry was Lily's heir and legacy.

I'm curious to know how Snape would have lived once Voldemort was gone. Would he have been able to recover that part of himself he locked away?

I think it'd have been incredibly difficult for him - as much as it would have been for Sirius who'd have had troubles adapting to normal life had he been exonerated. Or it'd be more difficult for Snape because Sirius had people who cared about him. But there's a theory about Snape that I really don't like, and this is the theory that he buried himself alive after Lily's death, that he never saw any reasons to go on without her in his life. Yes, he wished he had died in Lily's stead and he was consumed by guilt, but it doesn't mean that over the years he didn't rediscover something worth living for. Snape in the books did not give me an impression of being someone who looked forward to paying all the debts so he could finally die. That's why I don't see his death as a necessary part of his redemption. If he had remained alive, he'd have carried his guilt and shame till his dying day, but I'm sure he'd have been able to recover and learn to find joy in his life with time.

But there's a theory about Snape that I really don't like, and this is the theory that he buried himself alive after Lily's death, that he never saw any reasons to go on without her in his life.

My jury is out on this. He is an emotionally thwarted man -- if Lily had never come into his life, he would still be emotionally stunted. He is a wounded individual, clearly damaged in some way before he starts at Hogwarts.

Snape in the books did not give me an impression of being someone looking forward to paying all the debts so he could finally die. That's why I don't see his death as a necessary part of his redemption.

WORD. :tu:

I was convinced Rowling would kill him off in DH because his position as double agent had become so impossible.

I hold no truck with the view that Snape had to die because *gasp* he'd been such a nasty git to Harry.

Yeah the apology important, but Snape is a very judgemental but not a very merciful person so the weight of guilt and shame would have been very great.
I don't think he saw Harry as someone requiring an apology - at least not at first. I think he regarded Lily as the wronged one - as is shown by the nature of his worst memory, and Harry as partly responsible for his mothers death because she died to save him. As such Harry had to constantly prove himself worthy of her immense sacrifice in Snape's eyes, and was naturally found to be lacking, because nobody could live up to that.
I do think however that over time - from Ootp onwards - that he began to recognise that Harry was Lily's heir and legacy.

:agree: I totally agree! I wouldn't be surprised if Snape even blamed Harry for just being born! Which would be another instance of diverting the blame. I certainly don't think Snape felt he owed an apology to Harry, at least I saw no indication of such. In fact, I see his request to Dumbledore not to tell anyone, particulary Harry, as an indication that he did not see Harry as being wronged; and that his agreement to Dumbledore's request to make amends was only for Lily alone. Maybe, if he had acknowledged the need to apologise to Harry, it might have enabled him to lighten, if not completely lift the weight of the guilt and shame that he was burdened with.

He is an emotionally thwarted man -- if Lily had never come into his life, he would still be emotionally stunted. He is a wounded individual, clearly damaged in some way before he starts at Hogwarts.

I wonder what would have happened if he had never met Lily. Well, he'd have seen and interacted with her at Hogwarts anyway, because they were classmates, but what'd have happened if they hadn't been friends? Would Snape have been so damaged that he'd have never been able to form attachments of any sort? Would he have been an irredeemable self-serving *******? And if he would, then why? And is is possible that his life would have actually turned out better if he and Lily had never been friends? :hmm:

As for Snape's "death-wish", I'm just not sure that I like the idea that everything in Snape's world revolved around Lily and she was his only reason for being. I think he had other interests and passions - we know for sure that he was a brilliant scientist and loved the subjects he taught at school. So no, nothing will convince me that he had no desire to live. :D Although I'm sure that his sense of guilt would have never ever gone away.


I was convinced Rowling would kill him off in DH because his position as double agent had become so impossible.

Yes, it was one of the most predictable things about DH. Too bad she decided not to break the stereotype in this case. :sigh:

I hold no truck with the view that Snape had to die because *gasp* he'd been such a nasty git to Harry.

:agree:

It is interesting that all people who had been mean to Harry had to pay for that dearly in DH - even Zacharias Smith who JKR revenged on by turning him into a despicable coward! :lol:

It is worth remembering that very few people will have every symptom of an illness like depression; or any psychological condition. For example both hypersomnia & insomnia are symptoms of depression and it is unlikely that a person is going to suffer both of these. :) Therefore we cannot discount something like depression just because one or two symptoms are missing – that is normal.

I think the broadening of possibilities is very interesting thought.

I think both the idea of depression, a failure to process shame and unresolved mourning are all interesting possibilities but I think it is important to remember that all of these need to be judged by what has changed in term of symptoms which may not include everything that is present.

The bad hygiene and weird clothes in his childhood to my mind point to some kind of neglect (a caring parent would have done something) and this lack of care for himself seems to continue on into his adulthood. :(

I have to agree with TreacleTartlet’s opinion on this. Self care is by and large a learnt behaviour. I also think that it is clear that this behaviour pattern has been present throughout Severus’s life. Therefore it seems more connected to his childhood than with problems in his present and I would be hesitant, to say the least, to include his ability to care for him self as a symptom of anything else.

That said it is while we learn to care for our bodily needs (brushing teeth etc) that we also learn how to care for out psychological selves and the two are often linked – as the diagnostic criteria for depression shows. This leads me to ask - how did young Severus learn to cope with his emotional life and the effects of others on him? Firstly he would have needed someone to show him how to weather his own & other people emotions – without knowing this how is one able to retain so level of hope and trust in the world, or that there is such a thing as safety. I find myself wondering how Severus would have learnt such a lesson. We see that his mother is in no position to provide a feeling of safety and security to him. To me she has enough trouble coping with Tobias’s anger herself how would she be able to teach young Severus to deal with something she seems to struggle with. I can’t help wondering if it is actually only when he meets Lily that this lesson can be started.

That's why I don't see his death as a necessary part of his redemption. If he had remained alive, he'd have carried his guilt and shame till his dying day, but I'm sure he'd have been able to recover and learn to find joy in his life with time.
No I don't see his death as a necessary part of his redemption either - his life which he completely gave over to protecting Harry and bringing down Voldemort was a life lived out in penance.

I was convinced Rowling would kill him off in DH because his position as double agent had become so impossible.

I hold no truck with the view that Snape had to die because *gasp* he'd been such a nasty git to Harry.Totally agree! :tu: People who had always been good and nice to Harry died and people who had been incredibly horrible to Harry and even threatened his life lived, so I don't think that his death is any kind of judgement from the author.


I was so convinced that Jo would kill off Snape in the last book I even wrote a fanfic before DH came out in which he lived and went on to have a happy fulfilled life (link in my sig :whistle: ), so from a character point of view I think it was possible, but from a literary point of view - well Snape just had dead written all over him - in the same way Dumbledore did. I think all the characters relating to the prophecy had to die; Harry survived which surprised a few people but he also died. I see it as a symbolic thing that everything relating to the prophecy has to die so that the world can be "renewed" as it were. As you can probably all tell I'm no literary expert :lol: There are a few of you out there who could probably explain it in proper literary terms!

I wonder what would have happened if he had never met Lily. Well, he'd have seen and interacted with her at Hogwarts anyway, because they were classmates, but what'd have happened if they hadn't been friends? Would Snape have been so damaged that he'd have never been able to form attachments of any sort? Would he have been an irredeemable self-serving *******? And if he would, then why? And is is possible that his life would have actually turned out better if he and Lily had never been friends? :hmm:

I think that if it hadn't been Lily, it would have been someone else. The first person to treat him as a human being without prejudice. Probably a Slytherin. I've always believed though that the power to wrench himself from where he had sunk and turn around and seek redemption was always latent in him, death-threat to Lily or not. This kind of virile efforts to make amends, this steady, steely will to withstand whatever comes about in his attempt at atonement wasn't brought about only by his love for Lily. I think it only activated it, and he always had the potential. I also believe he would have turned against Voldemort eventually (like Regulus did) even if Lily ahd never been threatened directly.

I've always believed though that the power to wrench himself from where he had sunk and turn around and seek redemption was always latent in him, death-threat to Lily or not. This kind of virile efforts to make amends, this steady, steely will to withstand whatever comes about in his attempt at atonement wasn't brought about only by his love for Lily. I think it only activated it, and he always had the potential. I also believe he would have turned against Voldemort eventually (like Regulus did) even if Lily ahd never been threatened directly.

Beautifully said. :tu: This is exactly how I see him as well.

Totally agree! :tu: People who had always been good and nice to Harry died and people who had been incredibly horrible to Harry and even threatened his life lived, so I don't think that his death is any kind of judgement from the author.

No, I don't think that either. :)

I think all the characters relating to the prophecy had to die; Harry survived which surprised a few people but he also died. I see it as a symbolic thing that everything relating to the prophecy has to die so that the world can be "renewed" as it were. As you can probably all tell I'm no literary expert :lol: There are a few of you out there who could probably explain it in proper literary terms!

I can't put a name to it but it sounds convincing to me! :tu:

I think that if it hadn't been Lily, it would have been someone else. The first person to treat him as a human being without prejudice. Probably a Slytherin. I've always believed though that the power to wrench himself from where he had sunk and turn around and seek redemption was always latent in him, death-threat to Lily or not. This kind of virile efforts to make amends, this steady, steely will to withstand whatever comes about in his attempt at atonement wasn't brought about only by his love for Lily. I think it only activated it, and he always had the potential. I also believe he would have turned against Voldemort eventually (like Regulus did) even if Lily ahd never been threatened directly.

Great post, Yoana. :tu:

Bolding mine. I think that is an important distinction.

I think that if it hadn't been Lily, it would have been someone else. The first person to treat him as a human being without prejudice. Probably a Slytherin. I've always believed though that the power to wrench himself from where he had sunk and turn around and seek redemption was always latent in him, death-threat to Lily or not. This kind of virile efforts to make amends, this steady, steely will to withstand whatever comes about in his attempt at atonement wasn't brought about only by his love for Lily. I think it only activated it, and he always had the potential. I also believe he would have turned against Voldemort eventually (like Regulus did) even if Lily ahd never been threatened directly.

:agree: especially as Lily liked him even when she already had friends (or at least her sister) who didn't like him and he didn't see other children (or at least I always imagined he didn't).

I agree that he finally would have turned against Voldemort too. But what interests me more is why he joined Voldemort in the first place. I think it's partly because it made him feel needed, and partly because he wanted to keep his 'friends', especially after he had lost Lily's friendship

Great post, Yoana.
I agree - great post!

I think Snape has heaps of what Dumbledore would call moral fibre. He turns himself, his attitudes and his life around and puts himself in great danger to atone for his mistake. If you compare him to Pettigrew who apparently joined Voldemort because he was too scared not to, then we see the strength of character that was undoubtedly always there, because not only does Snape join the forces oppposing Voldemort, but he spies on Voldemort for those forces and kept his nerve right until the end.

Me too! Great post, Yoana! :tu:

I think Snape has heaps of what Dumbledore would call moral fibre. He turns himself, his attitudes and his life around and puts himself in great danger to atone for his mistake. If you compare him to Pettigrew who apparently joined Voldemort because he was too scared not to, then we see the strength of character that was undoubtedly always there, because not only does Snape join the forces oppposing Voldemort, but he spies on Voldemort for those forces and kept his nerve right until the end.

Yes, indeed and Dumbledore himself even recognised this in Snape.

'You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You Know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon...'

I agree - great post!

I think Snape has heaps of what Dumbledore would call moral fibre. He turns himself, his attitudes and his life around and puts himself in great danger to atone for his mistake. If you compare him to Pettigrew who apparently joined Voldemort because he was too scared not to, then we see the strength of character that was undoubtedly always there, because not only does Snape join the forces oppposing Voldemort, but he spies on Voldemort for those forces and kept his nerve right until the end.

In my opinion, it is not "moral fibre". I think I would call it resolve. In order for it to be moral fibre Snape would have to be motivated to do the right thing because it was the right thing, and I do not see this from Snape, except for maybe at the very, very end (I am undecided).

In my opinion, it is not "moral fibre". I think I would call it resolve. In order for it to be moral fibre Snape would have to be motivated to do the right thing because it was the right thing, and I do not see this from Snape, except for maybe at the very, very end (I am undecided).

I would agree with you, but for the fact that Severus agrees to continued to fight against Voldemort after Lily's death.

I am not amongst those who believe that Severus went to Dumbledore because he saw an opportunity to "acquire" Lily. I mean if he had wanted to do that he could have done it at any time post SWM. I believe he went because he just could not bear the thought of her not being alive in the world. He would rather she were alive and with James than dead. I say this because when she was alive and with James he did nothing to change the situation, but when her life was threatened he acted not just once but twice to save it, firstly by asking Voldemort to spare her, then by asking Dumbledore to make sure she stayed alive. The second of these he undertook believing that Dumbledore might well kill him on sight and at the very least he probably expected to be handed over to the Ministry as a Death Eater.

So Severus went to Dumbledore without expecting to get anything other than an assurance that Dumbledore would do his level best to keep Lily Potter alive. He really stood to gain nothing other than atonement for putting her life in jeopardy in the first place.

But even after his and Dumbledores' best efforts fail, Snape agrees to continue the fight for no other reason than to honour Lily's memory. He really has nothing to gain, so he "does the right thing" - protects Harry and continues to fight against Voldemort - to honour the memory of the woman he loved. I would call that moral fibre because he is doing the right thing when he stands to gain nothing himself by doing so.

I believe he went because he just could not bear the thought of her not being alive in the world. He would rather she were alive and with James than dead. I say this because when she was alive and with James he did nothing to change the situation, but when her life was threatened he acted not just once but twice to save it, firstly by asking Voldemort to spare her, then by asking Dumbledore to make sure she stayed alive.

You know this is a great point, and one I hadn't thought of in this light before. Had Snape really had any intention of "possessing" Lily, why wouldn't he have asked Voldemort to let him "have" her? Instead he asked him to spare her life. I've always maintained Snape never imagined Lily would go to him after the death of her son and husband, but I think this makes another good argument for that thought.

I think it'd have been incredibly difficult for him - as much as it would have been for Sirius who'd have had troubles adapting to normal life had he been exonerated. Or it'd be more difficult for Snape because Sirius had people who cared about him. But there's a theory about Snape that I really don't like, and this is the theory that he buried himself alive after Lily's death, that he never saw any reasons to go on without her in his life. Yes, he wished he had died in Lily's stead and he was consumed by guilt, but it doesn't mean that over the years he didn't rediscover something worth living for. Snape in the books did not give me an impression of being someone who looked forward to paying all the debts so he could finally die. That's why I don't see his death as a necessary part of his redemption. If he had remained alive, he'd have carried his guilt and shame till his dying day, but I'm sure he'd have been able to recover and learn to find joy in his life with time.

True, but literature is written for the reader - and it is the reader that requires death as a part of the cycle of a character like Snape according to some literary experts. I would agree that even if all readers don't require death in those circumstances, it is at least traditional for it to occur.

I would agree with you, but for the fact that Severus agrees to continued to fight against Voldemort after Lily's death.

I would agree with OldmotherCrow because if Snape did have ample moral fiber, he wouldn't have bullied the kids as an adult. To me, his morality was shakey at best and very grey, just like the character himself. I think he did have a sense of what was right, but one that was easily put aside.

I think Snape continued to fight against Voldemort because bringing down the dark lord was another of his goals and because he loathed Harry and thus, had no incentive to help protect the lad once the promise he'd made with Dumbledore was broken (by Dumbledore). That was one means to presumably ensure Lily's death had not been in vain, but Dumbledore had completely shattered that idea and there was nothing Snape could do about it except become Harry's major protector himself (against Dumbledore and Voldemort) on Lily's behalf. But Snape was not willing to do that; not for Lily and not for James (who would also wish Harry protected) - despite the role Snape had played in assisting in their deaths - removing them from the role of primary protectors of their son. Again, I think that speaks to a lack of moral fiber.

I am not amongst those who believe that Severus went to Dumbledore because he saw an opportunity to "acquire" Lily. I mean if he had wanted to do that he could have done it at any time post SWM.

But we do have canon that Snape attacked James at every opportunity in 7th year, which is when he and Lily got together. I feel that shows his jealousy was ongoing to the point where he was willing to take action. In my view, there are but a very few reasons that Snape would be motivated to do that - either he wished for Lily to become upset at the less headstrong and arrogant James starting up hexing with Snape again and dump him; or he simply wished to strike out in revenge because Lily had fallen for James.

After Hogwarts, when Snape was a Death Eater, we do not know what he did; there is no canon. But for all we know he may have plotted to try to ensure James would be killed. I don't say that speaking in facts, but merely to say that it is as possible a truth as 'Snape did nothing' during that time to show he wished to 'acquire' Lily.

I believe he went because he just could not bear the thought of her not being alive in the world. He would rather she were alive and with James than dead.

While I feel that makes Snape look very nobel, I don't feel it meshes with the subsequent canon. For Snape to be so jealous and hateful of the fact that Lily fell in love with James and had his child - that he would transfer those feelings to the son, in an overblown fashion as he did, does not jive with a benevolent Snape who only wanted what was best for Lily and to ensure she kept breathing. It makes little sense to me that all of his jealousy would arise at her death and before that was non existent. There is a possibility that Snape felt that James had carried Lily away from him forever into the afterworld that he could not access, sealing their relationship and love in a more eternal sense (thus he could no longer hope the relationship would end or that he could intercede in some way and cause it to end so he could have her). That could cause his jealousy to heighten to some degree perhaps, but even then, it would only be sparking jealousy that had already been simmering, not create something new, imo.

Additionally, the whole scene with Dumbledore being disgusted with Snape makes little sense if "what Snape wanted" was merely that foremost Lily be kept safe and nothing more, imo. That is a wonderful sentiment and only neglectful of her family - in other words, it would only require a gentle reminder to Snape that he was being neglectful, not a deeply shaming statement of the type Dumbledore made, imo.

I say this because when she was alive and with James he did nothing to change the situation, but when her life was threatened he acted not just once but twice to save it, firstly by asking Voldemort to spare her, then by asking Dumbledore to make sure she stayed alive. The second of these he undertook believing that Dumbledore might well kill him on sight and at the very least he probably expected to be handed over to the Ministry as a Death Eater.

I respect your view, but we simply don't have canon to know what Snape did after Hogwarts and thus I do not feel that what you have written is 'canon', but merely your opinion based on an assumption that may or may not be true. And it also does not take into account Snape's 7th year Hogwarts behavior, imo.

But even after his and Dumbledores' best efforts fail, Snape agrees to continue the fight for no other reason than to honour Lily's memory. He really has nothing to gain, so he "does the right thing" - protects Harry and continues to fight against Voldemort - to honour the memory of the woman he loved. I would call that moral fibre because he is doing the right thing when he stands to gain nothing himself by doing so.

Snape really didn't do "the right thing" except in a general sense, imo. He promised only to help protect Harry from Voldemort in lily's honor - but I disagree that there was nothing to gain for himself. Harry was the one pegged to bring Voldemeort down and Snape knew it. By protecting him until he could do so, he stood to gain the death of Voldemort, something I feel he wanted. Additionally, he did not do the right thing by becoming Harry's personal nemesis and torturer - behaving in an abusive, cruel and bullying manner toward him. Nor was that honoring Lily in any way.

Snape's help to protect actually honored both Harry's parents, whether Snape liked it or not and I think he didn't like that it also honored James in that it was honoring their marriage, their love and the representation of their love 'Harry'. So he set about vindictively balancing any good that might come from his good deeds by ensuring that there were plenty of bad deeds enacted against Harry as well by Snape himself, imo. In total, I feel that it shows Snape was lacking in moral fiber rather than the converse. I feel that he definitely stood to gain by his mistreatment of Harry - not in terms of worldly goods - but in an emotional sense.

After Hogwarts, when Snape was a Death Eater, we do not know what he did; there is no canon. But for all we know he may have plotted to try to ensure James would be killed. I don't say that speaking in facts, but merely to say that it is as possible a truth as 'Snape did nothing' during that time to show he wished to 'acquire' Lily.
It isn't in the books so it didn't happen. The books are finished so unlike real life, abscence of evidence can be taken as evidence of abscence. There is no canon that contradicts what I have said regarding Severus Snape trying to "acquire" Lily before or after her marriage to James. Snape hexing James in the seventh year is merely a continuation of an already established behaviour as specified in canon.


I think Snape continued to fight against Voldemort because bringing down the dark lord was another of his goals and because he loathed Harry and thus, had no incentive to help protect the lad once the promise he'd made with Dumbledore was broken (by Dumbledore). That was one means to presumably ensure Lily's death had not been in vain, but Dumbledore had completely shattered that idea and there was nothing Snape could do about it except become Harry's major protector himself (against Dumbledore and Voldemort) on Lily's behalf. But Snape was not willing to do that; not for Lily and not for James (who would also wish Harry protected) - despite the role Snape had played in assisting in their deaths - removing them from the role of primary protectors of their son. Again, I think that speaks to a lack of moral fiber.

I disagree. Snape did what was right and not what was easy.

He promised to protect Harry and he did that; he continued to spy against Voldemort - something he had been doing since before Lily's death . The purpose behind these actions, his motivation was to honour the memory of the woman he loved. He knew that Lily was opposed to Voldemort - she died opposing Voldemort - so helping to bring him down would honour her and continue her work.

He also completely fulfilled his promise to protect Harry. Harry grew to maturity and became an adult wizard. He was then in a position to make his own decisions regarding what he should do in the fight against Voldemort. It is a parent's job to protect and nurture their child until they are old enough to make their own way in the world, and fulfill their potential. Harry had a destiny to fulfill and when we see her in the forest she is supporting him in the decision he has made to sacrifice himself. It was Snape's protection that enabled Harry to reach that point which was the job he promised to do in Dumbledore's office.

I think he displayed great moral fibre - a determination to do what is right in very difficult circumstances and at great personal risk.

For Snape to be so jealous and hateful of the fact that Lily fell in love with James and had his child - that he would transfer those feelings to the son, in an overblown fashion as he did, does not jive with a benevolent Snape who only wanted what was best for Lily and to ensure she kept breathing.Why not? He loved Lily and was jealous of the relationship James had with her, but he would still rather she were alive and with James than dead. Harry was living proof of the love Lily had for James and as such Severus loathed him. I see no contradiction in any of this.

Additionally, the whole scene with Dumbledore being disgusted with Snape makes little sense if "what Snape wanted" was merely that foremost Lily be kept safe and nothing more, imo. That is a wonderful sentiment and only neglectful of her family - in other words, it would only require a gentle reminder to Snape that he was being neglectful, not a deeply shaming statement of the type Dumbledore made, imo.
The scene makes perfect sense to me. Snape would rather that Lily was alive and with James than dead. He really couldn't care less about James and Harry - Severus really didn't care if Voldemort blasted them off the face of the earth - and as has been discussed Severus would not have been there if Voldemort had chosen Neville. This is what Dumbledore finds so disgusting. That Severus at this point does not value human life - all human life. He is quite happy to associate with murderers, but when Lily is targeted he wants her and her alone saved. In other words: He is happy to watch people die. If we contrast this with the conversation that Snape and Dumbledore have years later ("How many people have you watched die?" "lately only those I could not save.") We can see how far Severus has come, because he now values human life - all human life - and will endeavour to save those he can not just those he personally wants saved.

I respect your view, but we simply don't have canon to know what Snape did after Hogwarts and thus I do not feel that what you have written is 'canon', but merely your opinion based on an assumption that may or may not be true. And it also does not take into account Snape's 7th year Hogwarts behavior, imo.
See above. As I said the canon is Snape did nothing to interfere with James and Lily's relationship. We do not know what he did, but if he had interfered then it would have been relevant and it would have been mentioned. It wasn't mentioned so it didn't happen. I could suggest that in that time Snape dyed his hair pink, went to Romania and built an orphanage - but I won't because there is no canon to suggest he did any of those things, just as there is no canon to suggest he did anything to interfere with the relationship between James and Lily.

Snape's help to protect actually honored both Harry's parents, whether Snape liked it or not and I think he didn't like that it also honored James in that it was honoring their marriage, their love and the representation of their love 'Harry'. So he set about vindictively balancing any good that might come from his good deeds by ensuring that there were plenty of bad deeds enacted against Harry as well by Snape himself, imo. In total, I feel that it shows Snape was lacking in moral fiber rather than the converse. I feel that he definitely stood to gain by his mistreatment of Harry - not in terms of worldly goods - but in an emotional sense.
I do not believe that a person's good points and bad points are weighed up against each other to give an overall result of goodness or badness. I think that what Snape did in regard to protecting Harry and bringing about the downfall of Voldemort showed great moral fibre. I also think that he was unnecessarily cruel to Harry and bullyed him.
I don't see these things as cancelling each other out.

It isn't in the books so it didn't happen. The books are finished so unlike real life, abscence of evidence can be taken as evidence of abscence. There is no canon that contradicts what I have said regarding Severus Snape trying to "acquire" Lily before or after her marriage to James. Snape hexing James in the seventh year is merely a continuation of an already established behaviour as specified in canon.

I agree except that as I see it, Snape continuing to work against James after Hogwarts would also be behavior establish by earlier canon. I also agree that your viewpoint is not contradicted by the canon and it is a possibility. However, I do feel that there is room for speculation other than yours precisely because we don't know what happened. I also feel that Snape's behavior in requesting that Voldemort and Dumbledore spare Lily - together with his actual statements when he spoke to Dumbledore, can be interpreted to mean that Snape had been working previously toward acquiring Lily as he had a means of ridding the world of her husband (they were on opposite sides of two battling forces). His asking for her to be spared can be interpreted as the culmination in a long line of plotting and acts toward making Lily his in the end.

So while I do not declare it as fact that Snape either did try or not try to acquire Lily while he was a Death Eater, I simply feel it is something we cannot know for certain. To me, there is canon to suggest he was thinking and perhaps acting along those lines as I pointed out above. But I also respect the idea that he may not have been is a possibility.

I disagree. Snape did what was right and not what was easy.

He promised to protect Harry and he did that; he continued to spy against Voldemort - something he had been doing since before Lily's death . The purpose behind these actions, his motivation was to honour the memory of the woman he loved. He knew that Lily was opposed to Voldemort - she died opposing Voldemort - so helping to bring him down would honour her and continue her work.

Oh I agree with this. I too feel he did the right thing in promising to help protect Harry. But not because he didn't wish for Lily's death to be in vain - I feel it would have been the right thing to do due to his role in bringing about the deats of both of Harry's parents. So to me, he adopted an understanding between he and Dumbledore that his efforts would be toward a noble end, but not the morally correct one. Thus, while his agreed upon duty was the right thing, I don't feel he did it with the right intent from a purely ethical standpoint. However, I do give quarter to Snape in that situation because he was at that point just turning from being a full fledged Death Eater.

Nonetheless, he later made the morally incorrect decision with respect to his treatment of Harry, further exemplifying that his moral decision making was off keel, imo.

He also completely fulfilled his promise to protect Harry.

I agree. He only promised to help protect him from Voldemort and I feel Snape did so to the best of his ability. Unfortunately, Snape also made it so that Harry would require protection from him and there was no one to assist in that regard until Sirius came along and there was not much Harry's godfather could do in the situation.

Harry grew to maturity and became an adult wizard. He was then in a position to make his own decisions regarding what he should do in the fight against Voldemort. It is a parent's job to protect and nurture their child until they are old enough to make their own way in the world, and fulfill their potential. Harry had a destiny to fulfill and when we see her in the forest she is supporting him in the decision he has made to sacrifice himself. It was Snape's protection that enabled Harry to reach that point which was the job he promised to do in Dumbledore's office.

I think he displayed great moral fibre - a determination to do what is right in very difficult circumstances and at great personal risk.

Actually, Harry was not yet an adult in wizard terms when Snape washed his hands of the protection, so I am unsure what you mean by this. Nonetheless, I do feel Snape kept his original promise until Dumbledore broke his part of the bargain - there is morality in that decision and it is admirable because as you say, even that was difficult and at times, necessitated that Snape act bravely and take risks in spying.

However, I cannot just toss away Snape's behavior toward Harry as if it didn't happen in the scheme of this consideration. JKR didn't have to include that as part of the story, but she did. To me, it shattered Snape's moral stance he was building up (I referred to in the first paragraph). Snape would protect Harry from Voldemort, but mistreat him so miserably in the meanwhile on a personal level. This was highly immoral in my judgment, even leaving Lily and James out of the equation altogether - but including them only makes it worse.

You see to me, JKR tried to uplift a petty, vindictive bully of children by and through his brave spying efforts. That is the bottom line as I see it. At the same time, that uplifting only extended to Snape's rise from evil to good on a purely ideological basis, imo. Because while Snape rejected evil ala Voldemort, he embraced it on a personal level relative to his behavior. Honestly, he behaved toward Harry and most of the children like Bella and Lucius or Voldemort.

That was something that JKR did not rectify when it came to Snape. I don't say that to be mean toward the character, that is truly how he behaved. Lucius degraded Harry's parents before him in CoS and Bella his beloved Godfather in OOTP, finally Voldemort degraded Harry's mom - in words extraordinarily similar to the way Snape did his father. Snape also treated Harry with disdain the way Lucius and Bella did. So it is very difficult not to reach similar conclusions about the characters of these people on a purely personal level (they are absolutely distinct when it comes to the big picture good v. evil of course).

That is why I find it incongruent at best to say that Snape showed moral fiber. I agree that he did by rejecting Voldemort's evil, but in his embracing negative behavior that was similar to those who embraced that very evil, I cannot call his final moral stance a proper one.

Why not? He loved Lily and was jealous of the relationship James had with her, but he would still rather she were alive and with James than dead. Harry was living proof of the love Lily had for James and as such Severus loathed him. I see no contradiction in any of this.

I respect and appreciate your view. I just find these viewpoints too incongruent to mesh. The action Snape took in canon (the written action) belies that he was ever mellow or casual in his viewpoint toward Lily, imo. Why would her death change his viewpoint so radically? I would imagine it would have the opposite effect because he could no longer be with her, see her or anything else. Instead, according to what you have said, he would have become even more vindictive and more dependent on his feelings of jealousy - if I understand you correctly. Why would he have been willing to put all of that aside for years while she actually lived and suddenly be unable to do so - years and years after her death?

The scene makes perfect sense to me. Snape would rather that Lily was alive and with James than dead. He really couldn't care less about James and Harry - Severus really didn't care if Voldemort blasted them off the face of the earth - and as has been discussed Severus would not have been there if Voldemort had chosen Neville. This is what Dumbledore finds so disgusting. That Severus at this point does not value human life - all human life. He is quite happy to associate with murderers, but when Lily is targeted he wants her and her alone saved. In other words: He is happy to watch people die. If we contrast this with the conversation that Snape and Dumbledore have years later ("How many people have you watched die?" "lately only those I could not save.") We can see how far Severus has come, because he now values human life - all human life - and will endeavour to save those he can not just those he personally wants saved.

I give all the kudos to Snape in the world for his growth in that area. However, that growth had yet to take place as you indicated. Why should a man of Snape's old immoral stance not wish to acquire Lily?

I don't like the term "acquire" because I don't feel that is what Snape wanted in realistic terms. I am unsure what you mean by it, but I feel he did feel he really loved her and wished to be with her, romantically - not that he "desired" her in some negative sense (like Voldemort believed). To me he felt that James did not deserve her love and that had nothing to do with James at all - it was purely based on the fact that he loved her and wanted to be with her himself. So I am not imagining some horrendous, macabre Snape here if that is what you are thinking I mean. I believe his feelings were genuine and actually if she hadn't been married, they would have been admirable. That Snape was willing to use pretty drastic means to get what he wanted is not morally good, but the dude was a Death Eater and his moral viewpoint was in tatters at the time. Snape didn't want Lily with James back then at all - but more to the point - he didn't want her with any man except himself, imo. James was merely a proxy for "a male who Lily loves" as I see it.

My point here though was that if Snape just "didn't care" about Harry and James, Dumbledore would have no reason to logically be disgusted. He would if he were talking to Kingsley - because Kingsley was an upstanding member of the Order. But he was talking to a Death Eater - to Snape - he could expect nothing except immoral views from Snape. In other words, many things disgusted him about Snape at that point relative to his evil doings. But in this particular situation, it wasn't only that Snape wanted Lily to be safe primarily and didn't care if the others were or not - that was only the 'normal immoral part' and Dumbledore would understand that, imo. But what was disgusting was that Snape was willing to "exchange" the son (and the father) for Lily - hence, ensure Lily remained alive at all costs. Not merely so that she would remain breathing with no son and husband, but so that she remained available to Snape one day in the future. That is what disgusted Dumbledore, imo, because the bottom line was that Snape didn't care about James and Harry because their being out of the picture was right in line with his goal.

It has been suggested that Snape could never believe that Lily would ever agree to be his. But I don't think that takes into consideration how JKR claimed she understood Snape to feel. As the writer of his character, she saw him as a person who believed that despite Lily's stance against evil, she would still be impressed by his prowess as a Death Eater. Imagine if Snape actually was responsible for 'saving her' when her whole family was killed; I imagine Snape felt that would really prove his worth to her. It really seems nonsensical and difficult for a reader to accept because we also know Lily and know that is likely untrue. But Snape simply did not look at things the way the readers do (from hearing their view on how Lily thinks). Snape wasn't stupid in the least, but his mind was completely confused when it came to Lily and all things associated with winning her love. I think the whole scene on the hill was a showing of exactly what JKR told us in interview.

People claim that since what she said was not in canon, it can be ignored (Snape thought Lily would be impressed by his being a Death Eater) - but it IS in canon - right there on the hill, if the reader doesn't chose to ignore it, imo. It is futher backed up by Snape's easy statement in DH when speaking to Lily when he said that the use of dark magic by his friend against a fellow student was 'just a laugh'. I don't think he believed that was a 'end the friendship' type of statement at all, meaning one that Lily would mind his holding to the extent that she would hold him in disfavor for it. Well she did; to the point where she was willing to compare it unfavorably with the behavior of the Marauders, which she also saw as bad - but not as bad as using 'dark magic'. Snape didn't seem to hear that point, he only saw her statement as being in support of an attraction for James he feared she had, imo. But the point is, Snape just didn't understand that Lily would not accept him - and even one day come to love him - despite his dark path behavior and viewpoint, imo. These things were evidence of that, imo.

See above. As I said the canon is Snape did nothing to interfere with James and Lily's relationship. We do not know what he did, but if he had interfered then it would have been relevant

How can it possibly be relevant? I don't understand - why is it something a reader would need to know? Snape was not the main protagonist of the book and there is a whole lot we don't know about him. Just as we don't know a whole lot about other characters. It doesn't matter at all what Snape tried or didn't try to do because his behavior only becomes relevant when he took the prophecy and later when he went to the hill. At that point he WAS working to save Lily and leave her son and husband's lives in jeopardy, so readers are free to believe whatever they want about the past leading up to that point, imo. If you feel he did nothing to interfere, that is your right, but it is certainly far from canon fact. And the whole reason it remains so is due to its unimportance to the canon either way.

For conversations sake, say it DID happen - what possible relevance would that have on the storyline? Even on Snape's story arc? (And of course I don't speak in terms of those who have Snape as a favorite character where everything is completely relevant because they want all the info they can get. Rather I speak in terms of understanding Snape and the storyline)

I do not believe that a person's good points and bad points are weighed up against each other to give an overall result of goodness or badness. I think that what Snape did in regard to protecting Harry and bringing about the downfall of Voldemort showed great moral fibre. I also think that he was unnecessarily cruel to Harry and bullyed him.
I don't see these things as cancelling each other out.

I respect your view, however I do not understand how we can reach a decision about Snape's moral fiber over all without taking everything into consideration. One does not have to do any balancing, but in taking it all into consideration, his personal behavior is a negative in that regard, imo. I guess the question is what are we saying Snape has a great moral fiber in comparison to? In comparison to when he was a Death Eater? In comparison to Kingsley Shacklebolt? In comparison to Bella? The word "great" means that there is a not as great - what or who exemplifies that not as great moral fiber we are holding Snape against?

This is what Dumbledore finds so disgusting. That Severus at this point does not value human life - all human life. He is quite happy to associate with murderers, but when Lily is targeted he wants her and her alone saved. In other words: He is happy to watch people die. If we contrast this with the conversation that Snape and Dumbledore have years later ("How many people have you watched die?" "lately only those I could not save.") We can see how far Severus has come, because he now values human life - all human life - and will endeavour to save those he can not just those he personally wants saved.

Well said!

I think he displayed great moral fibre - a determination to do what is right in very difficult circumstances and at great personal risk.

He most certainly showed great moral fibre when deciding to go and face Voldemort after his return at the end of GoF. He chose to do what was right.

He loved Lily and was jealous of the relationship James had with her, but he would still rather she were alive and with James than dead. Harry was living proof of the love Lily had for James and as such Severus loathed him. I see no contradiction in any of this.


Excatly! If Snape's motivation was to save only Lily because he desired her, then why did he go on to beg Dumbledore to keep the whole family safe, Lily, James and Harry.

'Hide them all, then,' he croaked. 'Keep her - them - safe. Please.'

He didn't care if James and Harry died, yet he pleaded for their lives to be saved also, if it meant saving Lily. I think this shows us that he would rather her be alive and with James than dead. He even agrees to spy for Dumbledore in return for him keeping the family safe.

The scene makes perfect sense to me. Snape would rather that Lily was alive and with James than dead. He really couldn't care less about James and Harry - Severus really didn't care if Voldemort blasted them off the face of the earth - and as has been discussed Severus would not have been there if Voldemort had chosen Neville. This is what Dumbledore finds so disgusting. That Severus at this point does not value human life - all human life. He is quite happy to associate with murderers, but when Lily is targeted he wants her and her alone saved. In other words: He is happy to watch people die. If we contrast this with the conversation that Snape and Dumbledore have years later ("How many people have you watched die?" "lately only those I could not save.") We can see how far Severus has come, because he now values human life - all human life - and will endeavour to save those he can not just those he personally wants saved.

:agree: Most excellently put!

I agree except that as I see it, Snape continuing to work against James after Hogwarts would also be behavior establish by earlier canon.
Well we know that Severus was working against James after he left Hogwarts because he was a Death eater which put him into direct oppposition with James - and Lily. I was not disputing that, but just because Severus was working against James and Lily doesn't mean that he was trying to split them up and "acquire" Lily for himself.

However, I do feel that there is room for speculation other than yours precisely because we don't know what happened.Fair enough, But I can't suscribe to the idea that anything could have happened because we don't know exactly what did happen. The books are complete and everything pertinent to the plot has been written. If Jo Rowling wanted her readers to believe that Snape wanted to split up James and Lily then she didn't do a very good job. However I think that Jo is a good writer and if she had wanted her readers to believe that Snape plotted to split up James and Lily then the evidence would be there. As it is I can only regard such speculation as fanfiction rather than a feasible possiblity with a basis in canon.

Nonetheless, he later made the morally incorrect decision with respect to his treatment of Harry, further exemplifying that his moral decision making was off keel, imo.
Nobody either in real life or in literature (at least good literature)makes "morally corect" decisions all the time. People make mistakes. That is what makes them human. Making mistakes in one part of your life does not imply that you are morally wrong in all aspects of life.


-I've got to go now - will continue later!


Okay Back now!

Firstly I want to just go over something I said above - I don't think that there is any evidence in canon that Snape did anything to split James and Lily up. However it is obvious to me that he wanted to have a romantic relationship with Lily and was very envious of her relationship with James. He undoubtedly wanted what James had and he could well have imagined all sorts of scenarios in which he "rescued" Lily from James. But whatever Severus may have thought or felt he didn't do anything to try to break up the Potters. I regard that as canon.

Sorry this is quite long

He only promised to help protect him from Voldemort and I feel Snape did so to the best of his ability. Unfortunately, Snape also made it so that Harry would require protection from him and there was no one to assist in that regard until Sirius came along and there was not much Harry's godfather could do in the situation.
I don't agree that Harry required protection from Snape. Yes Snape treated him badly and bullied him, but he was never a threat to his life and did him no physical harm. I know you disagree - but to put it into some sort of perspective an awful lot of parents have done an awful lot worse to their own children and have not been regarded as a threat to the childs safety or had the child removed from their care. [Note to mods: sorry if I am treading on difficult ground; go ahead and edit if you need to] The only complaint I could see Sirius having would be in regard to Snape's bullying behaviour - singling Harry out, mental and emotional abuse. Sirius could have (and as surrogate parent perhaps should have) written to Dumbledore to complain about this if he seriously objected to Snape's behaviour. That is what any parent would do. But instead Sirius chose to use Harry to continue his old feud against Snape, so I don't think Sirius comes out of it looking too good either, but that is for another thread!

Actually, Harry was not yet an adult in wizard terms when Snape washed his hands of the protection, so I am unsure what you mean by this. I'm assuming (so correct me if I'm wrong) that when you say "washed his hands" you mean "ceased to take responsibility for". I don't believe that Snape ever "washed his hands" of his promise to protect Harry. It certainly became extremely difficult for him after he killed Dumbledore! But Severus continued to do what he could to keep the boy alive and whole.

However, I cannot just toss away Snape's behavior toward Harry as if it didn't happen in the scheme of this consideration. JKR didn't have to include that as part of the story, but she did. To me, it shattered Snape's moral stance he was building up (I referred to in the first paragraph). Snape would protect Harry from Voldemort, but mistreat him so miserably in the meanwhile on a personal level. This was highly immoral in my judgment, even leaving Lily and James out of the equation altogether - but including them only makes it worse.
I agree that Snape treated Harry appallingly, even to the point of it being morally reprehensible (though I have to say that I don't like that phrase!) I am certainly not going to toss it aside, but as I said before making a morally wrong choice in his treatment of Harry does not in any way lessen the inherent moral goodness of his risking his life to help Harry and bring down Voldemort. Each action must be taken on its' own merits.

You see to me, JKR tried to uplift a petty, vindictive bully of children by and through his brave spying efforts. That is the bottom line as I see it. At the same time, that uplifting only extended to Snape's rise from evil to good on a purely ideological basis, imo. Because while Snape rejected evil ala Voldemort, he embraced it on a personal level relative to his behavior.
I see it that Jo Rowling took an emotionally stunted and damaged individual and showed that he could do morally good and great things while retaining old jealousies and refusing to forgive anyone least of all himself, and that not all heroes are "nice" people. Snape was very human because he was very flawed. I see that with a lot of Rowlings characters. James was an arrogant so-and-so as a teenager, but nonetheless he risked his life to save his enemy. Sirius was reckless and extremely vindictive, but he was also passionately loyal and incredibly brave. I do not think that these characters are intended to be moral role models for teenagers (or anyone else for that matter) and I don't think that Rowling is trying to right some sort of moral cautionary tale here. Rather she is trying to show how hard it can be for people to do what is right, but through perserverance and courage they can prevail.

Honestly, he behaved toward Harry and most of the children like Bella and Lucius or Voldemort.
This is quite simply incorrect.
In her interactions with children Bella tries to kill, maim, or torture them (at the ministry and during later encounters)Severus Snape never did any of those things. Snape never used the cruciatus curse on them, never held a knife to anyone's throat, never tried ti kill them with the AK.
Lucius treats pretty much everyone with contempt. We don't see him interact with children much, but in his encounter with Harry at the end of CoS we see him try to harm if not kill Harry. We never see Snape behave this way.
Voldemort has a complete disregad for human life and would kill a child without a second thought. We know for a fact from canon that Snape will save those he can from death.
I repeat to suggest that Severus Snape treats children in a similar way to Bella Lucius or Voldemort is incorrect.

That is why I find it incongruent at best to say that Snape showed moral fiber. I agree that he did by rejecting Voldemort's evil, but in his embracing negative behavior that was similar to those who embraced that very evil, I cannot call his final moral stance a proper one.What (and when) was this "final moral stance" ?
I respect and appreciate your view. I just find these viewpoints too incongruent to mesh. The action Snape took in canon (the written action) belies that he was ever mellow or casual in his viewpoint toward Lily, imo. Why would her death change his viewpoint so radically? I would imagine it would have the opposite effect because he could no longer be with her, see her or anything else. Instead, according to what you have said, he would have become even more vindictive and more dependent on his feelings of jealousy - if I understand you correctly. Why would he have been willing to put all of that aside for years while she actually lived and suddenly be unable to do so - years and years after her death?
None of this makes any sense to me! I was not suggesting that Snape mellowed or became casual or that he put aside feelings of jealousy while Lily lived and was not able to do so later.
What I am saying is that it is perfectly possible for a man to be desperately in love with a woman and feel intensely jealous of the relationship she has with her husband but not do anything about it. Furthermore when the woman is threatened it is perfectly possible that he would do anything to ensure her safety while not caring what happens to her husband and child, and that when she dies he still loves her and still hates her husband and loathes her child as a symbol of her love for another man. This is why people say that Snape is conflicted, because his feelings are in conflict with each other, and it is not just possible but actually quite common and in some cases (like Snapes) cause people a whole heap of emotional problems.

On a side note I was looking up emotional conflict on Wikiopedia and it cited them as a cause of tension headaches - perhaps that was why Snape was so grumpy all the time! :lol:

I don't like the term "acquire" because I don't feel that is what Snape wanted in realistic terms. My use of it is deliberate. While Voldemort may regard himself as being in a position to reward Severus by "giving" Lily to him Severus is rather more knowledgeable of the nature of love and is aware that you cannot "give" someone to someone else. A person is not a possesion. Snape understands this. And I agree that Snape doesn't want to "acquire" Lily - he wants her to love him as he loves her. As long as she is alive the possibilty of her one day loving him is alive, but if she dies then that possibility dies with her.
My point here though was that if Snape just "didn't care" about Harry and James, Dumbledore would have no reason to logically be disgusted.I disagree. Snape has come to Dumbledore and asked him to protect Lily. Dumbledore, who is already treating him with contempt, asks why he hasn't asked his master and he says that he has - that Voldemort will spare her and both Dumbledore and Snape know what Voldemort will do to Harry and James. The fact that Snape was quite happy with this arrangement is enough to disgust anyone. He has come to Dumbledore not to ensure the whole family will live but because he doesn't trust Voldemort to spare Lily. Snape knows Lily will fight and he knows that Voldemort will kill her. It is this that drives Snape to Dumbledore, and as I said his lack of respect for human life at this stage is disgusting. (Prodigal son wanting to eat the pig food anyone?) But Dumbledore has to make it clear to Snape (because Snape seems a little hazey about morals here) that Snape's attitude is disgusting. Dumbledore really takes hold of the full force of Snape's moral depravity and shoves it in his face "the father and son can die as long as you get what you want?" (paraphrased) And what Snape wants is Lily alive so that one day she will love him as he loves her.

But he was talking to a Death Eater - to Snape - he could expect nothing except immoral views from Snape. In other words, many things disgusted him about Snape at that point relative to his evil doings. But in this particular situation, it wasn't only that Snape wanted Lily to be safe primarily and didn't care if the others were or not - that was only the 'normal immoral part' and Dumbledore would understand that, imo.Just because you expect someone to hold "immoral" views doesn't make them any less disgusting. If I met a member of the BNP I would expect him to be racist, but that wouldn't lessen my disgust when he expressed those racist views.
I certainly don't think that Dumbledore would lessen his moral expectations according to whom he was talking to. His morals are his own, and regardless of whether he is talking to Severus Snape or Kingsley Shacklebolt they do not change. When Snape comes to Dumbledore on the hill Dumbledore has to make it clear to Snape exactly how he feels firstly about Snape's chosen way of life, and secondly about the request Snape has made. Dumbledore understands that if they are to work together then he must make it clear what his standards are and what he finds acceptable and what he finds unacceptable. He is not willing to be used by Snape to achieve Snape's personal goals, even if those specific goals are in line with what he, Dumbledore wants as well. So he makes it plain that Snape's way of life and his lack of respect for the life of James and Harry (as well as those that Snape has watched die as a Death Eater) is unacceptable to him and that he will only work with Snape on his - Dumbledore's - terms.

But what was disgusting was that Snape was willing to "exchange" the son (and the father) for Lily - hence, ensure Lily remained alive at all costs. Not merely so that she would remain breathing with no son and husband, but so that she remained available to Snape one day in the future. That is what disgusted Dumbledore, imo, because the bottom line was that Snape didn't care about James and Harry because their being out of the picture was right in line with his goal.
Actually I think we are in agreement here. But I would add that Dumbledore's disgust was because Snape didn't care that two people would die, as long as Lily lived. I think Dumbledore would have been just as disgusted regardless of who the two people were. It was Snape's willingless to let them die that disgusted him.
I'm not really sure what you mean about the "exchange" of the son for Lily.
That was how Voldemort put it, but then from Voldemort's POV he is "giving"
Lily to Snape in "exchange" for the information about the prophecy and the need to kill Harry. I don't think for one minute that Snape regarded it as an exchange; he was IMO merely taking the oppprtunity of being in Voldemort's "good books" to try to get what he wanted - Lily kept alive.

How can it possibly be relevant? I don't understand - why is it something a reader would need to know? In the chapter "The Prince's Tale" everything about Snape is laid bare so that we can understand his motivations. If he had tried to split James and Lily up then it would have shown a lack of respect for Lily and her choice to be with James, and Harry would have been unaware of this, thus making Harry's forgiveness of Snape and his naming of his child after him be based on incomplete information. In this sense Harry is a sort of "Christ-like" figure in that he knows everything there is to know about Snape and forgives him thus showing that Snape has been redeemed.

It is not just about what is theoretically possible but about literary completeness of a story.

I guess the question is what are we saying Snape has a great moral fiber in comparison to? In The question I was asking is "Does Snape show moral fibre?" and the answer to that is IMO Yes. You are of course free to ask amd answer whatever questions you choose in your posts! :)

Well we know that Severus was working against James after he left Hogwarts because he was a Death eater which put him into direct oppposition with James - and Lily. I was not disputing that, but just because Severus was working against James and Lily doesn't mean that he was trying to split them up and "acquire" Lily for himself.

Fair enough, But I can't suscribe to the idea that anything could have happened because we don't know exactly what did happen. The books are complete and everything pertinent to the plot has been written. If Jo Rowling wanted her readers to believe that Snape wanted to split up James and Lily then she didn't do a very good job. However I think that Jo is a good writer and if she had wanted her readers to believe that Snape plotted to split up James and Lily then the evidence would be there. As it is I can only regard such speculation as fanfiction rather than a feasible possiblity with a basis in canon.

Well as I said, I can appreciate that view, especially in light of your overall viewpoint. As I say, to me it is not a matter of a horrible and nefarious villain seeking to acquire a damsel to satiate his evil emotions. Rather, I feel it was more that Snape wanted Lily for his wife and held on to that possibility. In other words, if a situation arose wherein James would be vulnerable, I feel that Snape would have taken advantage of it if possible. They were capturing and killing Order members all of the time and if it could be James caught, then so much the better. You see what I mean? I don't believe Snape had the authority back then to plot specifically for James death, but if there were information that would render Potter vulnerable, Snape would be right upon it (after all, it mattered not to the DEs which Order member they killed, so James was good as any other to them). So that is what I mean by plotting - not actual making up a plan - but more Snape taking advantage of anything that came his way in that regard.

Nobody either in real life or in literature (at least good literature)makes "morally corect" decisions all the time. People make mistakes. That is what makes them human. Making mistakes in one part of your life does not imply that you are morally wrong in all aspects of life.

Agreed. I tried to make that clear above. I indicated that Snape deserved kudos and that is for his rejecting evil. I just don't ignore the other stuff.

Firstly I want to just go over something I said above - I don't think that there is any evidence in canon that Snape did anything to split James and Lily up. However it is obvious to me that he wanted to have a romantic relationship with Lily and was very envious of her relationship with James. He undoubtedly wanted what James had and he could well have imagined all sorts of scenarios in which he "rescued" Lily from James. But whatever Severus may have thought or felt he didn't do anything to try to break up the Potters. I regard that as canon.

Right - I get that and this is how I see it too. The only distinction is that I do feel it was likely in the back of his mind that Potter out of the picture would be a good thing - hence what I was saying above.

Sorry this is quite long

No worries, mine I think take the cake for length at times... :lol:

I don't agree that Harry required protection from Snape. Yes Snape treated him badly and bullied him, but he was never a threat to his life and did him no physical harm. I know you disagree - but to put it into some sort of perspective an awful lot of parents have done an awful lot worse to their own children and have not been regarded as a threat to the childs safety or had the child removed from their care. [Note to mods: sorry if I am treading on difficult ground; go ahead and edit if you need to] The only complaint I could see Sirius having would be in regard to Snape's bullying behaviour - singling Harry out, mental and emotional abuse. Sirius could have (and as surrogate parent perhaps should have) written to Dumbledore to complain about this if he seriously objected to Snape's behaviour. That is what any parent would do. But instead Sirius chose to use Harry to continue his old feud against Snape, so I don't think Sirius comes out of it looking too good either, but that is for another thread!

While I do agree with what you are saying in general, I do feel that Harry could have used protection from Snape's overt behavior. In truth, I feel like Dumbledore dropped the ball because he should have worked with Snape on his classroom behavior. It was not only bad for the kids, but it wasn't good for Snape either. He may have felt happy in the moment (if one interprets his smirks and such as happiness), but overall, I think that sort of thing makes one miserable inside in the long run.

I'm assuming (so correct me if I'm wrong) that when you say "washed his hands" you mean "ceased to take responsibility for". I don't believe that Snape ever "washed his hands" of his promise to protect Harry. It certainly became extremely difficult for him after he killed Dumbledore! But Severus continued to do what he could to keep the boy alive and whole.

No, I was referring to his agreeing to Dumbledore's plan which entailed Harry's death. Snape had no choice but to wash his hands of his original promise because Dumbledore broke his part of the bargain (as Snape understood it). At that point, Snape realized he was no longer protecting Harry to keep him alive - but only to temporarily keep him alive and whole so Voldemort could kill him. This was no longer for Harry's personal benefit, but rather for the benefit of the wizard world, imo.

I see it that Jo Rowling took an emotionally stunted and damaged individual and showed that he could do morally good and great things while retaining old jealousies and refusing to forgive anyone least of all himself, and that not all heroes are "nice" people. Snape was very human because he was very flawed. I see that with a lot of Rowlings characters. James was an arrogant so-and-so as a teenager, but nonetheless he risked his life to save his enemy. Sirius was reckless and extremely vindictive, but he was also passionately loyal and incredibly brave. I do not think that these characters are intended to be moral role models for teenagers (or anyone else for that matter) and I don't think that Rowling is trying to right some sort of moral cautionary tale here. Rather she is trying to show how hard it can be for people to do what is right, but through perserverance and courage they can prevail.

Actually I feel the same way. The thing is, in the case of Snape, you have taken a step backward. I agree that Snape was emotionally stunted and damaged - and that played out in the attributes I named, so we just used differing starting points to describe this, imo. But we can step back for them all; Sirius too was emotionally stunted nad damaged - hence his acting out with recklessness and a sometimes dangerous character; and James was coddled and spoiled rotten - his acting out as an arrogant kid who skipped the interchanges and went right for the gusto, i.e., hexing when molested by others when young. And too, Snape and Sirius would have a bigger burden to overcome than James who merely had to kick his arrogance and impetuousness. I do take all of that into account.

But when we meet these characters, James is done; Sirius is fresh from Azkaban and Snape is a professor at school. So the story for all practical purposes begins there (book 1) for Snape and Sirius (book 3) with our seeing the 'acting out' part of their stories. So that is what I mean by JKR telling a tale of these parties. We did not see the damage done to as meaningful of an extent as we saw the acting out. And it was those persons who moved through the storyline with their characters as they were. How they got that way - well there is the portion you were talking about. That is why I have never considered James really at all, because his story was all word of mouth and snap shots. But the story I know was what was told in canon beginning in Harry's first year at Hogwarts. So I feel JKR's tale was not of James or Lily - that was filler basically - but rather of Snape and Sirius as actual secondary characters in the tale and how they evolved from their starting points in the respective books to the person they ended up being at death.

They did evolve, there is no doubt in my mind about that (to me) :lol:. And that is why I felt JKR was lifting Snape up - not from the point of the tale we did not see, but from the point where we entered the picture. The Prince's Tale didn't do it for me because it failed to address a very important portion of the story, namely, years 1-6.5 of Harry's school career. I do understand that there was nothing to address - but that I feel was the problem.

This is quite simply incorrect.
In her interactions with children Bella tries to kill, maim, or torture them (at the ministry and during later encounters)Severus Snape never did any of those things. Snape never used the cruciatus curse on them, never held a knife to anyone's throat, never tried ti kill them with the AK.
Lucius treats pretty much everyone with contempt. We don't see him interact with children much, but in his encounter with Harry at the end of CoS we see him try to harm if not kill Harry. We never see Snape behave this way. Voldemort has a complete disregad for human life and would kill a child without a second thought. We know for a fact from canon that Snape will save those he can from death. I repeat to suggest that Severus Snape treats children in a similar way to Bella Lucius or Voldemort is incorrect.

Well above I tried to make it clear that in the ways you are speaking of - evil v. good - there is a HUGE distinction between Snape and those characters. I totally agree with you that Snape was not like them in those ways at all (with the exception of the escape from Hogwarts in HBP). Generally, the only way they were all similar was in their personal interaction with the kids - specifically with Harry. I tried to give an example of what I was speaking about in their showing their disrespect for his dead parents in their speech to him and degraded him either simultaneously or in separate statements - that isn't going to keep you out of the afterworld, but it is a similarity between them that was notable, imo.

What (and when) was this "final moral stance" ?

That he didn't wish Sirius' uncle to call Hermione a Mudblood; that he didn't watch those die he felt he could save; that he attempted to save Lupin despite it being his enemy; that he rejected evil and Voldemort and with the majority of the wizard world wished to see him vanquished. That he continued to take risks for Dumbledore's tasks when he was acting headmaster at Hogwarts. That he was ready to admit to certain things that showed him to be culpable in order to 'do the right thing'. All of these were a part of Snape's moral stance - all of it admirable. But another part of his stance was that on a personal level, nothing about him had changed at all.

On a side note I was looking up emotional conflict on Wikiopedia and it cited them as a cause of tension headaches - perhaps that was why Snape was so grumpy all the time! :lol:

:lol:

My use of it is deliberate. While Voldemort may regard himself as being in a position to reward Severus by "giving" Lily to him Severus is rather more knowledgeable of the nature of love and is aware that you cannot "give" someone to someone else. A person is not a possesion. Snape understands this. And I agree that Snape doesn't want to "acquire" Lily - he wants her to love him as he loves her. As long as she is alive the possibilty of her one day loving him is alive, but if she dies then that possibility dies with her.

Ah well I agree - but I just feel like "acquire" means something less than there being genuine emotion behind the action - purely heartless and greedy. I don't think that defines Snape, so I would not use that term. That was more what I feel Voldemort thought - Snape desired her (in a negative sense) and wanted to acquire her. Whereas Snape wasn't thinking like that. So I guess we are saying the same thing, I just put a different understanding on the term.

I disagree. Snape has come to Dumbledore and asked him to protect Lily. Dumbledore, who is already treating him with contempt, asks why he hasn't asked his master and he says that he has - that Voldemort will spare her and both Dumbledore and Snape know what Voldemort will do to Harry and James. The fact that Snape was quite happy with this arrangement is enough to disgust anyone. He has come to Dumbledore not to ensure the whole family will live but because he doesn't trust Voldemort to spare Lily. Snape knows Lily will fight and he knows that Voldemort will kill her. It is this that drives Snape to Dumbledore, and as I said his lack of respect for human life at this stage is disgusting. (Prodigal son wanting to eat the pig food anyone?) But Dumbledore has to make it clear to Snape (because Snape seems a little hazey about morals here) that Snape's attitude is disgusting. Dumbledore really takes hold of the full force of Snape's moral depravity and shoves it in his face "the father and son can die as long as you get what you want?" (paraphrased) And what Snape wants is Lily alive so that one day she will love him as he loves her.

Just because you expect someone to hold "immoral" views doesn't make them any less disgusting. If I met a member of the BNP I would expect him to be racist, but that wouldn't lessen my disgust when he expressed those racist views.

I certainly don't think that Dumbledore would lessen his moral expectations according to whom he was talking to. His morals are his own, and regardless of whether he is talking to Severus Snape or Kingsley Shacklebolt they do not change. When Snape comes to Dumbledore on the hill Dumbledore has to make it clear to Snape exactly how he feels firstly about Snape's chosen way of life, and secondly about the request Snape has made. Dumbledore understands that if they are to work together then he must make it clear what his standards are and what he finds acceptable and what he finds unacceptable. He is not willing to be used by Snape to achieve Snape's personal goals, even if those specific goals are in line with what he, Dumbledore wants as well. So he makes it plain that Snape's way of life and his lack of respect for the life of James and Harry (as well as those that Snape has watched die as a Death Eater) is unacceptable to him and that he will only work with Snape on his - Dumbledore's - terms.

I feel like that is what I said too. :lol:. I also agree that Dumbledore would have felt the same about any two people. But I think his disgust specifically included the idea that the matter was a more personal one for Snape. In other words - he wasn't there to save people, but to save only Lily - as you said - for some future possibility. So perhaps just the way I put it made it sound as if I were saying something else - but that is what I meant as well.

Actually I think we are in agreement here. But I would add that Dumbledore's disgust was because Snape didn't care that two people would die, as long as Lily lived. I think Dumbledore would have been just as disgusted regardless of who the two people were. It was Snape's willingless to let them die that disgusted him.

Exactly. I think the personal aspect of it though, made it important for Dumbledore because Snape had not come for the right reason, in his judgment. But Snape felt he had come for a right reason - that what he felt was fine. So it isn't just a matter of Dumbledore feeling like "DE Snape has come with his DE attitude" - it was more like "DE Snape has come with what he believes is a good attitude and he is mistaken."

I'm not really sure what you mean about the "exchange" of the son for Lily. That was how Voldemort put it, but then from Voldemort's POV he is "giving" Lily to Snape in "exchange" for the information about the prophecy and the need to kill Harry. I don't think for one minute that Snape regarded it as an exchange; he was IMO merely taking the oppprtunity of being in Voldemort's "good books" to try to get what he wanted - Lily kept alive.

Actually Dumbledore said that on the hill. That Snape's willingness to exhange the mother for the son with Voldemort disgusted him. And yes, I was only speaking from Dumbledore's point of view. Snape I agree would see it as an opportunity to get what he wanted.

In the chapter "The Prince's Tale" everything about Snape is laid bare so that we can understand his motivations. If he had tried to split James and Lily up then it would have shown a lack of respect for Lily and her choice to be with James, and Harry would have been unaware of this, thus making Harry's forgiveness of Snape and his naming of his child after him be based on incomplete information. In this sense Harry is a sort of "Christ-like" figure in that he knows everything there is to know about Snape and forgives him thus showing that Snape has been redeemed.

I agree - I just don't feel that it would matter at all to Snape's arc to know if he did anything while a DE that would indicate an attempt to allow/ensure James was wiped out of the picture. Just as Harry never found out anything Snape ever did as a Death Eater. Those acts were not important to understanding Snape's dalliance with evil to his turning to the good side, imo. Also, I think Harry understood very well that Snape lacked respect for Lily's choice to be with James as well as Harry as the representation of their love - the ripping of the picture at #12 was indicative of this, imo. So Harry was aware of that aspect and he still forgave in a christ like manner, imo. But maybe I don't understand what you mean exactly.

The question I was asking is "Does Snape show moral fibre?" and the answer to that is IMO Yes. You are of course free to ask amd answer whatever questions you choose in your posts! :)

Well I agree that he showed moral correctness in some of the decisions he made, principally, in rejecting evil. I suppose I was just being comprehensive in adding that he also did not show it at times.

No, I was referring to his agreeing to Dumbledore's plan which entailed Harry's death. Snape had no choice but to wash his hands of his original promise because Dumbledore broke his part of the bargain (as Snape understood it). At that point, Snape realized he was no longer protecting Harry to keep him alive - but only to temporarily keep him alive and whole so Voldemort could kill him. This was no longer for Harry's personal benefit, but rather for the benefit of the wizard world, imo.
Well I see it as Snape keeping Harry alive until he was old enough to decide for himself whether to embrace or reject Dumbledore's plan. The decision to go into the forest was Harry's and Harry's alone. Snape completed his protection of Harry by bringing him to the point where he could make that decision. IF Lily and James had lived then (and assuming that Harry still had a bit of Voldemort stuck in him) he would still have had to make the same decision, so I do not see that Dumbledore was in any way out of line. He knew that Harry had to die in order that Voldemort could be killed. He did not tell Harry what to do, he merely presented the information to Harry for Harry to make the choice, but he knew Harry well enough to know that Harry would sacrifice himself. He also knew that in sacrificing himself Harry would save himself. That however was the part that Snape didn't know.

Ah well I agree - but I just feel like "acquire" means something less than there being genuine emotion behind the action - purely heartless and greedy. I don't think that defines Snape, so I would not use that term. That was more what I feel Voldemort thought - Snape desired her (in a negative sense) and wanted to acquire her. Whereas Snape wasn't thinking like that. So I guess we are saying the same thing, I just put a different understanding on the term.I used the term "acquire" because it seemed to sum up what Voldemort was offering Snape because Voldemort didn't understand love, rather than what Snape wanted. There was a difference between what Voldemort offered and what Snape really wanted

Actually Dumbledore said that on the hill. That Snape's willingness to exhange the mother for the son with Voldemort disgusted him. And yes, I was only speaking from Dumbledore's point of view. Snape I agree would see it as an opportunity to get what he wanted.Yes I think Dumbledore was pointing out the nature of the deal that Snape had struck with Voldemort. I've given you the son so perhaps you can give me the mother in exchange. I don't think Snape saw it like that, which is why Dumbledore points it out to him, because essentially that's what it is. It's an interesting point actually in that Snape is willing to use Voldemort to get what he wants, but Dumbledore will not allow himself to be used in the same way. Dumbledore is making it clear that he is not prepared to "get into bed with" murderers and that it has to be done his way.

I agree - I just don't feel that it would matter at all to Snape's arc to know if he did anything while a DE that would indicate an attempt to allow/ensure James was wiped out of the picture. Just as Harry never found out anything Snape ever did as a Death Eater. Those acts were not important to understanding Snape's dalliance with evil to his turning to the good side, imo. Also, I think Harry understood very well that Snape lacked respect for Lily's choice to be with James as well as Harry as the representation of their love - the ripping of the picture at #12 was indicative of this, imo. So Harry was aware of that aspect and he still forgave in a christ like manner, imo. But maybe I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Well I suppose I took Harry as representative of all the people Snape had injured through his DE activities, and as Harry could forgive him then it indicated his redemption. The point being that Harry knew all and forgave all, so if you thought that Snape disrespected Lily's choice to be with James and Harry knew about it and forgave it, then fair enough - we are really at the same point were Harry knew all and forgave all.

As I say, to me it is not a matter of a horrible and nefarious villain seeking to acquire a damsel to satiate his evil emotions.

snarf :lol: That turn of phrase tickles my fancy!:lol:

Dumbledore interests me almost more than Snape in their confrontation about Lily. After all, we know (or get to know) that Dumbledore in his youth made morally fudgy decisions based on friendship, passion, whatever you want to call it, as far as Grindelwald was concerned. There's an argument for saying that Dumbledore was responsible for his sister's death, as a result - and more than a hint of his impatience with physical disability. Enough to suggest that Dumbledore might have gone down the road of the Dark Arts - pure blood and pure talent uber alles. That kind of eugenic way of thinking.

There you have presented a passionate friendship (whether romantic in nature or not) of two young people, whereby "morality" might have been put to one side for a while. Similarities to Snape's feelings for Lily?

The salient point is that Dumbledore is wise enough to reject it all, after learning a bitter, bitter lesson. Is Snape not in the same boat? Shouldn't Dumbledore have more compassion for him?

Well, to a degree ; the difference is in the subtlety. Dumbledore rejects Evil from a wider principle of Goodness, it seems to me - not a personal motivation because of one individual. I think it's that about Snape which makes him so angry - the self-absorption that still dominates Snape's thinking and feeling, even as he turns traitor against Voldy. In other words, does Dumbledore feel so angry with Snape because he himself had rejected the "personal" in favour of the "general" principle of goodness, and is PO'd that Snape hasn't done the same?

I know the counter-arguments about proof of Snape's wider sense of morality (Wicked, you listed some of them above) but it still strikes me that he is principally doing it all out of love for Lily and remorse for her death. Not because he embraces "Good" over "Evil" wholesale.

Hi, Yewberry! :D :)

Well, to a degree ; the difference is in the subtlety. Dumbledore rejects Evil from a wider principle of Goodness, it seems to me - not a personal motivation because of one individual. I think it's that about Snape which makes him so angry - the self-absorption that still dominates Snape's thinking and feeling, even as he turns traitor against Voldy. In other words, does Dumbledore feel so angry with Snape because he himself had rejected the "personal" in favour of the "general" principle of goodness, and is PO'd that Snape hasn't done the same?

Very good point. I hadn't quite thought of that before.

I know the counter-arguments about proof of Snape's wider sense of morality (Wicked, you listed some of them above) but it still strikes me that he is principally doing it all out of love for Lily and remorse for her death. Not because he embraces "Good" over "Evil" wholesale.

I think that is absolutely true of Severus when he decides to work for Dumbledore and against Voldemort in 1981.

I do, however, believe that the reader can discern some evidence of a wider sense of morality developing in him, in The Prince's Tale. E.g. when he shows shock and horror at Dumbledore's apparent cold-bloodedness in raising Harry "like a pig for the slaughter" so that he "can die at the right time" (Snape's own words). And also when he says curtly to Dumbledore that he has only watched those die who he has been unable to save.

His attitude towards Harry is deeply problematic though for the entirety of the series, and I do not accept, as is often argued, that this was only an act for the benefit of the other Slytherin kids whose parents were DEs. We have plenty of evidence in canon that Snape's issues with Harry were personal and not feigned.

As to whether he still hated Harry passionately at the very moment of his death ... I think the reader should be free to make up their own mind on that! :whistle: :)

Dumbledore rejects Evil from a wider principle of Goodness, it seems to me - not a personal motivation because of one individual. I think it's that about Snape which makes him so angry - the self-absorption that still dominates Snape's thinking and feeling, even as he turns traitor against Voldy. In other words, does Dumbledore feel so angry with Snape because he himself had rejected the "personal" in favour of the "general" principle of goodness, and is PO'd that Snape hasn't done the same?

I would agree if I didn't consider Dumbledore a right old hypocrite. He tells young Snape that he disgusts him, condemning his "selfishness" and lack of care about other people. Yet 15 years later Dumbledore says to Harry - "What do I care if nameless, faceless people die in the future as long as you are safe". We know he is planning to sacrifice Harry's life in the future, but if his words about "nameless, faceless people" are true, I don't see how he could judge Snape for giving little thought to a faceless family of Lily. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Dumbledore was very hesitant when he was faced with the necessity to take down Gridelwald. He took his time, procrastinated, allowing Grindelwald to take more innocent people, because he could not bring himself to face him. It seems the "personal" was still more important to him at that time. I think Dumbledore hates this about himself and can't help indulging himself in punishing Snape for the very qualities which he despises in himself.

I do, however, believe that the reader can discern some evidence of a wider sense of morality developing in him, in The Prince's Tale. E.g. when he shows shock and horror at Dumbledore's apparent cold-bloodedness in raising Harry "like a pig for the slaughter" so that he "can die at the right time" (Snape's own words). And also when he says curtly to Dumbledore that he has only watched those die who he has been unable to save.

I absolutely agree. Many of his actions (trying to save Lupin's life, agreeing to protect the students of Hogwarts) have nothing to do with Lily. The only Lily-related thing he was doing was looking out for Harry. And then he had to put up with the thought that Harry's life had to be sacrificed for the "greater good", although he knew this definitely wasn't something Lily would have wanted or approved of. (Of course, he never met Ghost!Lily and therefore was unaware of the fact that she had changed her priorities drastically. :rolleyes:)

His attitude towards Harry is deeply problematic though for the entirety of the series, and I do not accept, as is often argued, that this was only an act for the benefit of the other Slytherin kids whose parents were DEs. We have plenty of evidence in canon that Snape's issues with Harry were personal and not feigned.

Yes, I think he had very conflicted feelings when it came to Harry. But at least many of his criticisms of Harry were well-founded. His treatment of Neville and Hermione irritates me much more. Sometimes he was downright cruel to them. (That remark about teeth... It was low.)

I think Dumbledore hates this about himself and can't help indulging himself in punishing Snape for the very qualities which he despises in himself.

Possibly. :) I'm not an Albus fangirl, or an apologist for him. But to be fair, that admittedly chilling comment of his in OotP about "nameless, faceless people" -- well, there he is owning up to an unadmirable part of his character, I don't think he expects Harry's approval for admitting this. Although it is certainly a disquieting statement. (Manipulative Dumbledore didn't just come out of nowhere!)

I absolutely agree. Many of his actions (trying to save Lupin's life, agreeing to protect the students of Hogwarts) have nothing to do with Lily.

Yes. :)

The only Lily-related thing he was doing was looking out for Harry. And then he had to put up with the thought that Harry's life had to be sacrificed for the "greater good", although he knew this definitely wasn't something Lily would have wanted or approved of. (Of course, he never met Ghost!Lily and therefore was unaware of the fact that she had changed her priorities drastically. :rolleyes:)

Funny how everybody just falls in with Dumbledore's plans for Harry, eh? :lol:

Yes, I think he had very conflicted feelings when it came to Harry. But at least many of his criticisms of Harry were well-founded.

Sometimes they are. :cool: Unfortunately, they're also filtered through the lens of his ancient prejudice. :whistle: And he can be really nasty to Harry when it's just the two of them.

The teeth remark to Hermione is spectacularly cruel.

Yes, I think he had very conflicted feelings when it came to Harry. But at least many of his criticisms of Harry were well-founded. His treatment of Neville and Hermione irritates me much more. Sometimes he was downright cruel to them. (That remark about teeth... It was low.)

I don't feel that it is a matter of whether or not Snape's criticisms were well founded (which is a highly subjective notion, imo). It is true that Hermione had large front teeth, for example, and yet his comment was no less 'low' for it being founded in some form of truthfulness. It was the same with Harry; he could definitely be arrogant, impertinent, rule breaking and mediocre in magic at times, but like in the case of Hermione, Snape's comments were generally exaggerated and extended into conjecture about Harry that was simply incorrect - and yet stated as if it were some kind of unassailable truth ("Harry struts"). Neville's performance was below par, so Snape calling him an "idiot boy" was also founded in some form of truth, but again, neither was it a totally correct assessment of Neville, nor a proper way of addressing the matter, imo.

I see no justification for Snape behaving in a bullying manner toward any of the children - especially Harry considering the trauma and pain he had undergone and would undergo which Snape was responsible for, at least in part, by his delivering the prophecy to Voldemort. A similar argument could be made for Neville, imo.

The only distinction is that I do feel it was likely in the back of his mind that Potter out of the picture would be a good thing - hence what I was saying above.

If Snape really wanted James and Harry out of the way, his perfect and possibly only chance of ever achieving that was Voldemort. Yet he went to Dumbledore, aware that it would deny him any chances of ever "getting Lily to himself". I don't think he actively wanted James and Harry to die (though I doubt he'd shed a single tear over James's demise). His only concern was Lily's life, and he simply didn't think of anything or anyone else. This is not good, but I seriously doubt he was dancing with glee at the thought of James's and Harry's cold corpses. He didn't care about them in the slightest.

While I do agree with what you are saying in general, I do feel that Harry could have used protection from Snape's overt behavior. In truth, I feel like Dumbledore dropped the ball because he should have worked with Snape on his classroom behavior. It was not only bad for the kids, but it wasn't good for Snape either. He may have felt happy in the moment (if one interprets his smirks and such as happiness), but overall, I think that sort of thing makes one miserable inside in the long run.

I completely agree with this, although I don't think Dumbledore ever considered caring about his employees' or students' emotional state one of his top priorities. He was all about seeing the bigger picture, you see.. the Greater Good is greater than the needs of smaller people.

Actually Dumbledore said that on the hill. That Snape's willingness to exhange the mother for the son with Voldemort disgusted him. And yes, I was only speaking from Dumbledore's point of view. Snape I agree would see it as an opportunity to get what he wanted.

I don't understand where this idea of Snape's wanting to "exchange" someone for Lily comes from. How could he exchange Lily for Harry if Voldemort already knew about Harry and was going to kill him anayway? I have a hard time imagining Snape just coming up to Voldie and saying - "You know, I think I'll let you kill the boy, but only if you get me his mommy gift-wrapped instead". His life would have lasted for about two seconds after such a claim (one second for Avada, another for Kedavra :cool:).

I'm not an Albus fangirl, or an apologist for him. But to be fair, that admittedly chilling comment of his in OotP about "nameless, faceless people" -- well, there he is owning up to an unadmirable part of his character, I don't think he expects Harry's approval for admitting this.

I'm sure he doesn't expect anyone's approval, but his words to Snape are awfully self-righteous. "You disgust me", indeed...That's rich, coming from a man who who would admit being no better than Snape many years later.

Funny how everybody just falls in with Dumbledore's plans for Harry, eh? :lol:

Was there a different solution in the Potter universe? Harry does what he did, or Harry runs and hides until Voldemort tracks him down, and THEN dies, seem to be the only two alternatives.

Telling Harry this, seems the least anyone should do for him. Certainly, it would be wrong to let Harry and/or any people helping him, go fight Voldemort believing that Voldemort can be killed. That's a great way to get those people killed without achieving much. Unless, fortuitously, Harry would happen to die. I don't see Snape, or Harry, or the ghostly parents, as seeng much of an alternative.

Harry could have taken more time to set his affairs in order, etc. Not to do so was his own choice, and not something Snape, or Albus, or anyone else, dictated to him.

I don't see Snape, or Harry, or the ghostly parents, as seeng much of an alternative.

Well, I wasn't being particularly serious. :)

I agree with you: that's how JKR sets the whole thing up.

Well, I wasn't being particularly serious. :)

It's an oft-issued criticism of Snape, on this thread, that he "went along with Albus's plan for Harry". Not by you. :)

which is a highly subjective notion, imo

It seems every single thing about HP is higly subjective. :)

It is true that Hermione had large front teeth, for example, and yet his comment was no less 'low' for it being founded in some form of truthfulness. It was the same with Harry; he could definitely be arrogant, impertinent, rule breaking and mediocre in magic at times, but like in the case of Hermione, Snape's comments were generally exaggerated and extended into conjecture about Harry that was simply incorrect - and yet stated as if it were some kind of unassailable truth ("Harry struts").

I don't think it's the same with Harry. Snape should have kept opinion on his arrogance, impertinence, etc. to himself, but he was right to critisise Harry for breaking rules and being a slack and lazy student. His comments in this case were not exaggerated. He was not right in singling Harry out, of course.

I don't see Snape, or Harry, or the ghostly parents, as seeng much of an alternative.

I agree with this, but still, there's something... disconcerting about parents beaming with smiles while their only son is walking to his death. (Even if they somehow knew that he'd get a chance to live, how could they know that Voldemort would not want to torture Harry brutally before killing him?)
Sorry for off-topic.

It's an oft-issued criticism of Snape, on this thread, that he "went along with Albus's plan for Harry".

Ah. :)

Not by you. :)

No, not guilty, mum! :whistle: :D

No, that is not my view. Lily and James clearly have no problem with the Master Plan, and I would certainly never blame Severus for accepting Dumbledore's decision. :cool:

No, that is not my view. Lily and James clearly have no problem with the Master Plan, and I would certainly never blame Severus for accepting Dumbledore's decision. :cool:

The only decision Albus made, so far as Snape knew, was the decision of when to tell Harry about the soul bit. I really don't see not telling Harry at all as a reasonable option. Harry not knowing, would not change the horror of his situation, a situation primarily of Voldemort's making (with assists from Lily, Peter, and Snape, in reverse chronological order of their contributions). ALbus was just the guy who uinderstood what had happened, at some point.

So it's that decision that I see Snape as deciding to accept. Accepting Dumbledore's judgment about when it would be best to tell Harry.

I don't understand where this idea of Snape's wanting to "exchange" someone for Lily comes from. How could he exchange Lily for Harry if Voldemort already knew about Harry and was going to kill him anayway? I have a hard time imagining Snape just coming up to Voldie and saying - "You know, I think I'll let you kill the boy, but only if you get me his mommy gift-wrapped instead". His life would have lasted for about two seconds after such a claim (one second for Avada, another for Kedavra :cool:).

I feel JKR meant for Dumbledore's words to be taken in the broad view. I agree Snape would never propose an actual "exchange" with Voldemort. :rotfl:. But the idea is that Snape had taken the prophecy to Voldemort and he had that "good deed" in his pocket. So he could request "payment" by asking him to spare Lily. So in other words, he would exchange the information about Harry for the sparing of the mother as his reward. We do not know if Voldemort indicated that Snape would be rewarded - but if not, Snape was proposing a reward of his own. So that is the sense in which I feel "exchange" is being used here.

Hello again. :D

I see some wonderful discussion of Albus going on here...perhaps we could move it to one of these threads instead? Albus Dumbledore Character Analysis v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=113187) or Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=113993)
Let's keep this solely about Severus Snape, yes? ;)

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...(:whistle:)...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way. ;)

I don't think it's the same with Harry. Snape should have kept opinion on his arrogance, impertinence, etc. to himself, but he was right to critisise Harry for breaking rules and being a slack and lazy student. His comments in this case were not exaggerated. He was not right in singling Harry out, of course.

I don't recall Snape accusing Harry of being slack and lazy to his face. However, his comments about rule breaking were off the mark and he knew it, imo. That pertained to his meeting with the troll, the chamber of secrets, etc., and is hardly traditional rule breaking. The petty rule breaking such as hex wars with Draco and sneaking to Hogsmeade were worthy of sanction, but not to the extent or with the aggression Snape used to stricture Harry, imo. His method is what is in question, imo, because bullying the child is not the correct way of going about stricture even when due. Derrogatory comparisons with his beloved father who had been killed were over the line, imo.

I agree with this, but still, there's something... disconcerting about parents beaming with smiles while their only son is walking to his death. (Even if they somehow knew that he'd get a chance to live, how could they know that Voldemort would not want to torture Harry brutally before killing him?)

Unlike Snape - Harry's ghostly parents apparently knew "everything" - absolutely everything, imo. Harry did not tell them what he was doing or where he was going - he did not tell them the news he had gotten from Dumbledore - that he was a horcrux and had to die. He did not tell them that he was planning to walk into the forest and allow Voldemort to kill him. They knew all of this. How? And if they knew all of that, it stands to reason that they knew everything - not just specific items that readers can pick and chose for them to know because that would make no sense, imo.

"Does it hurt?" Harry asks out of the blue. Sirius answers about Death. "I didn't mean for you to die - any of you". Lupin's response gets to the heart of the matter (leaving his orphan child). His parents were proud and indicated he'd been so brave - and that they would be with him to the end. They smiled their encouragement - James nodding for his son to move forward and confront - with his wand tucked in his robe - and not to fight. Why? That James wished his son to be killed without a fight for his personal amusement could not be the canon based answer knowing what we do of his parents. His mother smiled her encouragement as well - would she do that because she was a macabre person who enjoyed watching her relatives killed by dark lords - the very relative she had sacrificed her life for? Per the canon, that makes no sense. Most telling was James telling him that the end was near - or it would soon all be over, something along those lines - and something he could not possibly know unless he had foresight into the future, imo.

Thus, it is reasonable to assume that they knew exactly what the outcome would be - just as they knew all that had already taken place without being told, imo.

This does bear directly on the character of Snape, although some may disagree. But I feel that Snape did not know any of this information - not all that Harry had undergone, nor the fact that he stood a chance of coming out alive. He didn't know about the intracacies of the old protection Harry had and what the consequences of Voldemort taking his blood might be. But with none of this information at his fingertips, Snape still agreed to go along with Dumbledore's plans relative to Harry. Both made a wrongful decision in that regard, imo, and I feel their only fault was non-disclosure until a time when Dumbledore felt it would be right to disclose. This, Dumbledore admitted was a lack of trust on his part and he admitted he'd been wrong in that regard and asked forgiveness for it. Thus, I feel the canon indicates that Dumbledore and Snape's behavior was wrongful. That is the distinction between the ghostly loved ones and Snape, imo, and why I feel it is an important one.

For Dumbledore, it was a matter of preserving Harry's life. However, for Snape, it was a matter of sending the boy to certain death, placing the onus or moral duty on him to reveal what he knew to an even greater extent, imo (as it was a matter of Harry's very survival, life and death). However, I feel his own feelings toward Harry enabled him to follow Dumbledore's instructions without feeling a need to warn Harry of his impending doom.

Hello again. :D

I see some wonderful discussion of Albus going on here...perhaps we could move it to one of these threads instead? Albus Dumbledore Character Analysis v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=113187) or Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=113993)
Let's keep this solely about Severus Snape, yes? ;)

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...(:whistle:)...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way. ;)


I think that is another respectable way to look at it. However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent.

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...(:whistle:)...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way. ;)

I think this is a very plausible interpretation! I never thought about it before.

I feel JKR meant for Dumbledore's words to be taken in the broad view. I agree Snape would never propose an actual "exchange" with Voldemort. :rotfl:. But the idea is that Snape had taken the prophecy to Voldemort and he had that "good deed" in his pocket. So he could request "payment" by asking him to spare Lily. So in other words, he would exchange the information about Harry for the sparing of the mother as his reward. We do not know if Voldemort indicated that Snape would be rewarded - but if not, Snape was proposing a reward of his own. So that is the sense in which I feel "exchange" is being used here.

No, he could not exchange information about Harry for Lily, because when he was delivering prophecy he did not know who it was about. Dumbledore knew this.

I don't recall Snape accusing Harry of being slack and lazy to his face.

It doesn't mean if these comments were made to Harry's face or not - they were well-founded, because Harry was prone to breaking rules and was a lazy student. Teachers are entitled to call students out on these things, bring other adults' attention to the problem or express their dissapproval with such behaviour.

However, his comments about rule breaking were off the mark and he knew it, imo.That pertained to his meeting with the troll, the chamber of secrets, etc., and is hardly traditional rule breaking.

I disagree. Harry repeatedly placed his own life and the lives of friends in danger, and Snape knew this. Harry deserved all the dressing-down he got for sneaking off to Hogsmide. It was much more serious than petty rule breaking, because Sirius Black was belived to be out for Harry's blood at the time.

Derrogatory comparisons with his beloved father who had been killed were over the line, imo.

This I agree with.

Harry did not tell them what he was doing or where he was going - he did not tell them the news he had gotten from Dumbledore - that he was a horcrux and had to die. He did not tell them that he was planning to walk into the forest and allow Voldemort to kill him. They knew all of this. How?

Thus, it is reasonable to assume that they knew exactly what the outcome would be - just as they knew all that had already taken place without being told, imo.
Well, I assumed they simply watched Harry and everyone from the sky or wherever they were spending their afterlife. :lol: That's how they knew what had happened prior to Harry's walk to death. But there isn't a single hint in the book that they could see the future. Considering all this, I find their reaction very perplexing. The only explanation I have is that, being dead, they probably viewed life in an entirely different way and possibly did not value it as much. :shrug:

But with none of this information at his fingertips, Snape still agreed to go along with Dumbledore's plans relative to Harry. Both made a wrongful decision in that regard, imo, and I feel their only fault was non-disclosure until a time when Dumbledore felt it would be right to disclose.

How do you suppose Snape should have disclosed this information to Harry? Should he have approached him? I doubt that would have ended well.
When he learnt that Harry was at Hogwarts, he wanted to see him and possibly inform him of everything Harry needed to know, but fighting Minerva and Flitwick the duel champion seemed to put the matter out of his mind for just a bit.

However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent
He is Snape. He would not have ran after Hermione, patted her on the back and said "There, there". :p

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...(:whistle:)...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way. ;)

Mexicant, thanks so much for that insight! :)

Thus, I feel the canon indicates that Dumbledore and Snape's behavior was wrongful. That is the distinction between the ghostly loved ones and Snape, imo, and why I feel it is an important one.

I don't perceive any censure from canon for Snape's part in going along with Dumbledore's plan for Harry. Where do we see any indication in canon that his actions in obeying Dumbledore's orders were wrongful?

There is censure for Albus. :whistle:

And forgiveness, when Harry meets him in the celestial King's Cross and later on, when he goes to Albus's portrait.

For Dumbledore, it was a matter of preserving Harry's life. However, for Snape, it was a matter of sending the boy to certain death, placing the onus or moral duty on him to reveal what he knew to an even greater extent, imo (as it was a matter of Harry's very survival, life and death). However, I feel his own feelings toward Harry enabled him to follow Dumbledore's instructions without feeling a need to warn Harry of his impending doom.

But he knew he had to tell Harry when the time was right. Not before.

I think that is another respectable way to look at it. However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent.

Well, he's SNAPE. He's an insensitive git. ;)

His words may not be always as cruel as we perceive them to be -- and sometimes they are that cruel -- but he is never, ever, going to be a nice, cuddly, fluffy bunny who comforts the children. :lol: :)

I think that is another respectable way to look at it. However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent.

If Snape meant it as mexicant suggests, as a simple statement of fact about two magical hexes cast on two of his students rather than a slur on Hermione's usual appearance, it is not clear to me how he should have instantly realized that a perfectly reasonable statement by him was misunderstood by her and caused her to run off crying. We have no evidence, other than the very statement the meaning of which we are discussing, to suggest Snape thought there was anything remotely worthy of comment regarding Hermione's teeth in their natural state.

If mexicant is right, then from his point of view, Snape engaged in a discussion with Ron and Harry about what was done to Hermione by Draco and by Harry to Goyle. And then suddenly Hermione ran out of the room in tears. For all we know, he might have attributed her reaction to Ron's insensitivity in exposing the injury Hermione herself had endeavored to hide. Or he might have guessed that Hermione (incorrectly, in his view) believed herself more wronged than Goyle and was reacting to this perceived injustice.

No, he could not exchange information about Harry for Lily, because when he was delivering prophecy he did not know who it was about. Dumbledore knew this.

I was referring to his desire to effect the change in the aftermath - as a substitute for any reward Voldemort might have been willing to grant for his service in delivering the prophecy.

It doesn't mean if these comments were made to Harry's face or not - they were well-founded, because Harry was prone to breaking rules and was a lazy student. Teachers are entitled to call students out on these things, bring other adults' attention to the problem or express their dissapproval with such behaviour.

For the legitimate rule breaking (meaning the ones that didn't end up with the destruction of one of Voldemort's horcruxes and enlighten Voldemort as to there being more - or rescuing Hermione from a troll, etc.), Harry did deserve to be called out. However, I still believe that Snape's method in doing so was inappropriate. It matters not if his argument was well founded; he negated any importance contained in his message by and through his conduct in as far as Harry was concerned, imo. Harry was simply disdainful and took nothing Snape said to heart.

I disagree. Harry repeatedly placed his own life and the lives of friends in danger, and Snape knew this. Harry deserved all the dressing-down he got for sneaking off to Hogsmide. It was much more serious than petty rule breaking, because Sirius Black was belived to be out for Harry's blood at the time.

I would respectfully disagree. Snape did not give dressing downs, imo. Neither Harry nor any child deserves to be bullied in the manner Snape employed for breaking rules. Lupin dressed him down appropriately and Snape should have emulated that behavior as it was more effective and appropriate. I feel McGonagall was another professor Snape could have emulated in that regard.

Well, I assumed they simply watched Harry and everyone from the sky or wherever they were spending their afterlife. :lol: That's how they knew what had happened prior to Harry's walk to death. But there isn't a single hint in the book that they could see the future. Considering all this, I find their reaction very perplexing. The only explanation I have is that, being dead, they probably viewed life in an entirely different way and possibly did not value it as much. :shrug:

Do you really feel that is a proposition that JKR would support? I also feel the canon supports the proposition that they knew what was to come or JKR would not have had them say that the end was very close. How could they possibly know that? As someone pointed out, Voldemort may have had a long tortorus session in mind - or any one of a number of intervening factors could have occurred. So I feel that the answer is not to say that when those in the HP series move on to the afterlife they lose all sense of moral value.

That idea cuts even more at Snape's presumed redemption because what would possibly be the point in having him struggle and strive in rejecting evil only to die and return to a state of mind that eschewed all of the moral values he had collected during his life? And Voldemort could have gone on to the afterworld under that theory as well, imo.

How do you suppose Snape should have disclosed this information to Harry? Should he have approached him? I doubt that would have ended well.
When he learnt that Harry was at Hogwarts, he wanted to see him and possibly inform him of everything Harry needed to know, but fighting Minerva and Flitwick the duel champion seemed to put the matter out of his mind for just a bit.

He had nearly two years - much of it during Harry's 6th year when there was ample opportunity to speak to him. I agree Harry would not believe it - but Snape would merely direct him to Dumbledore and Harry would confirm what Snape told him through the elderly wizard. That would have actually been quite an amazing storyline relative to Snape's arc - well to me any way. :lol:.

He is Snape. He would not have ran after Hermione, patted her on the back and said "There, there". :p

Well my point was "he is Snape" so he likely meant to humiliate her with his comment - that was something he often did, imo. So if we are analysing his behavior based on his normal treatment of the children, I feel my interpretation is also applicable.

If Snape meant it as mexicant suggests, as a simple statement of fact about two magical hexes cast on two of his students rather than a slur on Hermione's usual appearance, it is not clear to me how he should have instantly realized that a perfectly reasonable statement by him was misunderstood by her and caused her to run off crying. We have no evidence, other than the very statement the meaning of which we are discussing, to suggest Snape thought there was anything remotely worthy of comment regarding Hermione's teeth in their natural state.

If mexicant is right, then from his point of view, Snape engaged in a discussion with Ron and Harry about what was done to Hermione by Draco and by Harry to Goyle. And then suddenly Hermione ran out of the room in tears. For all we know, he might have attributed her reaction to Ron's insensitivity in exposing the injury Hermione herself had endeavored to hide. Or he might have guessed that Hermione (incorrectly, in his view) believed herself more wronged than Goyle and was reacting to this perceived injustice.

I respect what you are saying, however, I feel Snape was wise enough to understand that his remark had impacted Hermione. Further, many of his actions and statements relative to the children were humiliating in nature, imo, so I do not understand why this would be interpreted distinctly. I respect every reader's right to interpret these scenes as they see them - but my own interpretation is that Snape was behaving as he generally did in situations involving the children.

I always took that statement of Snape's to mean that Hermione's teeth looked no worse after Goyle's hex than they had before. Mexicant's interpretation is completely new territory for me. I agree with wwb that it's perfectly in character for Snape to be nastily insulting to a Muggle-born Gryffindor.

...But actually not very in-character for him to insult a person's appearance, funnily enough. I have no real opinion either way in that scene, because, yes, he could certainly have meant that to be an insult to Hermione's looks. It would, however, be the first and only disparaging comment he'd make about a person's looks. Generally, he insults his students' intelligence or talks about their real or imagined personality faults. :huh:

ETA: Nor, indeed, would he go out of his way to target someone on the basis of their being a muggle-born female Gryffindor. If I recall correctly, he was not only quite fond of one of those but insisted that Pineas Nigellus not use the word "Mudblood". It's the Gryffindor boys who bear a striking resemblance to one James Potter who really need to watch out.

Oh please, where oh where in canon does it tell us that Snape told Voldemort that the unnamed person in the prophecy was Harry Potter? :no::no::no:

It was the other way around, Voldemort told Snape he'd decided on Harry. Snape then asked for the mother to be spared - and Dumbledore called that exchanging the son for the mother - and it could be seen as such if Dumbledore felt that Snape thought Voldy owed him one.

ETA: Nor, indeed, would he go out of his way to target someone on the basis of their being a muggle-born female Gryffindor. If I recall correctly, he was not only quite fond of one of those but insisted that Pineas Nigellus not use the word "Mudblood". It's the Gryffindor boys who bear a striking resemblance to one James Potter who really need to watch out.

I agree that being a female and muggleborn had little to do with it. However, I would respectfully disagree that Snape only mistreated children on the basis of whether or not they looked like James Potter (which in itself is a completely unjustified and irrational reason, imo) but Snape mistreated many children, many of them Gryffindors, males and females, for whatever reasons he may have had.

I personally felt the canon showed that he had a particular vendetta against Hermione because she was brilliant. That could be because his youthful enemies were also brilliant and he was onto his transference deal. I felt that way because he was rude and belittling toward her in the first class - prior to her being a particular friend of Harry's - and prior to his understanding the full extent of her brilliance. The mere fact that she knew answers seemed to be enough to raise his hackles and to me there is no reason for that other than jealousy and/or dislike of intelligent Gryffindor children - based perhaps on the fact that Sirius and James did the same in class when he was young - or were selected to do so. Recall his comment from the train that Gryffindors were brawny and it was the Slytherins that were brainy. Well his enemies proved him wrong in that regard by and through their subsequent performance. Snape carried a lot of petty baggage with him from his youth and it would seem that Hermione was simply another victim of his tendency for transference in that regard (this I feel moved beyond his everyday bullying of the children). Actually, another reason might simply be that her giving him correct answers prevented him from belittling other children who would not have said answers, but that seems a bit far fetched even for Snape, imo, however, I would concede it is a possibility (in that first class I think that did play into it as he was focusing on Harry, but his subseqeunt behavior toward Hermione reinforces the overall I idea I presented, imo).

However, I would respectfully disagree that Snape only mistreated children on the basis of whether or not they looked like James Potter (which in itself is a completely unjustified and irrational reason, imo) but Snape mistreated many children, many of them Gryffindors, males and females, for whatever reasons he may have had.

I believe this style of argument is known as the "straw man".

ignisia expressed the opinion that Snape did not seem to address the appearance of his students (with the one possible exception of the Hermione's teeth incident what we have been discussing). Rather, she suggested, it was their intelligence, behavior, and character that drew his fire.

As it happens, I agree with her. I too have no strong opinion of what Snape may have meant by the "I see no difference" comment. It took Hermione's reaction to clue me in to the worst possible construction of it. If he did mean it in that way, however, this is the lone instance on the books in which he comments on someone's appearance.

Back before DH, on one of the "Snape: The Hero" threads, I posted a list of targets of Snape's insults, and what he insults them for/about:

A list of Snape's preferred targets and the insults he uses:

Harry: enjoying his fame, attention seeking, arrogance, inability to follow instructions on Potions/ Occlumency, being a thoughtless rule-breaker, being a liar and a cheat (No mention of his unruly hair, scar, or glasses).

Neville: being stupid, sloppy, and lazy in his work, incompetent (No mention of his chubbiness).

Hermione: being an insufferable know-it-all, parroting textbooks (No mention of the hair, no mention of having a cat's head, there is of course the `I see no difference' comment, which might be the sole exception to my proposed rule)

Ron: inability to Apparate (No mention of his handmade or secondhand clothing)

Lupin: criticizes his teaching style and organization of his class (No mention of his ragged clothing)

Sirius: implies he is a coward, and useless to the Order (No mention of the complete change in his appearance)

Peter: calls him vermin. I take this is a reference to his Animagus form, which in the Potterverse says something about his character, not his external appearance. (No mention of his looks).

Bellatrix: implies she is useless to Voldemort, and not the sharpest tool in the shed (No mention of the complete change in her appearance)

Tonks: criticizes weakness of her Patronus

Draco: criticizes his actions in HBP as clumsy and foolish, implies he is being childish (OK, Draco's appearance does not seem to be an available target, as he is well dressed, well-groomed, and at worst not handsome).

I believe this style of argument is known as the "straw man".

ignisia expressed the opinion that Snape did not seem to address the appearance of his students (with the one possible exception of the Hermione's teeth incident what we have been discussing). Rather, she suggested, it was their intelligence, behavior, and character that drew his fire.

As it happens, I agree with her. I too have no strong opinion of what Snape may have meant by the "I see no difference" comment. It took Hermione's reaction to clue me in to the worst possible construction of it. If he did mean it in that way, however, this is the lone instance on the books in which he comments on someone's appearance.

I don't feel I in anyway ignored the proposition Ignisia made or attempted to turn the comment into a different proposition. She did express the opinion that Snape's remarks did not seem to pertain to the appearance of his students. However, independent of one's interpretation in the scene we are speaking about, Snape was referring to her appearance (even if in a comparative sense of seeing no greater harm done to her than Goyle, when it is evident that the harm done to her is far greater relative to her appearance.)

However, Ignisia's subsequent statement that those young males who resembled James Potter had to watch out, did not speak to appearance at all, because as you pointed out, Snape did not belittle Harry for his appearance. So the topic was adroitly turned to Snape's overall belittling by that statement which is what I addressed. In addition, I gave my opinion that his behavior toward Hermione in particular may have been predicated on factors that were specific to her.

I personally felt the canon showed that he had a particular vendetta against Hermione because she was brilliant. That could be because his youthful enemies were also brilliant and he was onto his transference deal. I felt that way because he was rude and belittling toward her in the first class - prior to her being a particular friend of Harry's - and prior to his understanding the full extent of her brilliance. The mere fact that she knew answers seemed to be enough to raise his hackles and to me there is no reason for that other than jealousy and/or dislike of intelligent Gryffindor children - based perhaps on the fact that Sirius and James did the same in class when he was young - or were selected to do so.
I don't think that Snape did pick on Hermione, and certainly he didn't have a vendetta against her. What Snape made quite clear was that he didn't lke her "know-it-all" attitude, which gets up quite a few peoples noses - even Harry's and Ron's to start with! It isn't just that she knows the answers in Snape's class but that the way she raises her hand trying to get the teachers attention so she can display her brilliance.

There is also plenty of canon to show that Snape treats all the pupils pretty much the same with the exception of Slytherins whom he favours. I don't think that he singles anyone out apart from Harry (which I believe is the point that Ignisia was making). Remember in the first lesson Harry was going to call him on the unfairness of being blamed for Neville's ineptitude until Ron warned him against it because he had heard from his older brothers that Snape could "turn nasty".

I don't think that Snape did pick on Hermione, and certainly he didn't have a vendetta against her. What Snape made quite clear was that he didn't lke her "know-it-all" attitude, which gets up quite a few peoples noses - even Harry's and Ron's to start with! It isn't just that she knows the answers in Snape's class but that the way she raises her hand trying to get the teachers attention so she can display her brilliance.

Agreed, but why? That is the bit I was addressing - and admittedly vendetta is too strong a word. But Snape's focus was upon her for that reason and it does make one wonder why. A brilliant student (know all about a particular subject matter being studied in a classroom which is what a professor wants of the student) is different than a brilliant friend or acquaintance (know all about everything which no one does). And why immediately? The first day of class, one can't really be said to be a 'know it all' as they have not yet displayed their knowledge. The very idea that she might have knowledge was the only thing Snape could have been predicating his behavior on at that point, imo. However, later, when he confirmed she was indeed knowledgeable, he continued to respond that way and again one must ask why that might be considering they were in a classroom.

The only time I remember Snape calling Hermione a know-it-all, was when she in fact didn't 'know it all' and was getting in his way. In PoA he wanted the students to realize that Lupin was a werewolf. So he had to set them that essay. And IMO he insulted Hermione to make her work extra hard, because she was the most likely to find out.

I agree of course that he didn't treat her properly. She was a Gryffidore, and IMO he never let a chance to make Gryffindore's miserable pass. And she was close to Harry - Herminone, Ron and Harry were the new Marauders, at least I think in Snapes mind.

The very idea that she might have knowledge was the only thing Snape could have been predicating his behavior on at that point, imo. However, later, when he confirmed she was indeed knowledgeable, he continued to respond that way and again one must ask why that might be considering they were in a classroom.I dunno, I always saw Snape and Hermione as kindered 'students': She had small hand writing, he had small handwriting. He wrote totally way more than was necessary, as she did. He went over his test answers, so did she.

I dunno, I always saw Snape and Hermione as kindered 'students': She had small hand writing, he had small handwriting. He wrote totally way more than was necessary, as she did. He went over his test answers, so did she.

I think the fact that Snape liked to imagine they were kindred students, but knew they were in reality not, was likely the problem. Snape was never noted for being the best, wisest or most intelligent in his year as Hermione was. I am sure many students over the years had small handwriting and numerous students, especially Ravenclaws, focused upon their test answers - and included information that went beyond the question asked. I feel that Snape had a small amount of jealousy for all students who were recognized as brilliant - something he'd aimed to be when young, but had been unable to achieve recognition for. But his feelings would be especilaly profound when a Gryffindor was recognized as the 'cleverest in her year' because in addition to obtaining the recognition he had not, they would also be liken unto his enemies who were also granted that recognition for their intelligence. As I pointed out, Snape had believed that Gryffindors were 'brawny' not brainy and that Slytherins (and perhaps Ravenclaws) were the brainy ones - or at least more intelligent overall than the Gryffindors. However, both during his time at Hogwarts and during Harry's years, Gryffindors filled that role and I don't think he was very happy about it.

Even when Hermione gave him a correct answer - the occassion when he allowed her to answer in HBP - his response was degrading in nature. If he wanted a broader or more introspective response than what was gleaned from the book, then he should have asked a follow up question, which is what all teachers and professors do - especially with the more academically intelligent students - in order to get them to elaborate on underlying ideas and notions. However, Snape did not do this, instead he went on to elaborate himself, as if to show that he was the more brilliant of the two. That of course is nonsensical because a teacher is expected to be more brilliant with respect to the subject they are teaching; but apparently Snape wished to elaborate rather than give Hermione the opportunity to do so, rendering his comment unfair (she did answer the question correctly) and suspect relative to his motive. I feel this interpretation is in line with JKR's comments regarding her rendering of Snape's 'teaching character' - which I read after I reached that interpretation for myself.

I feel that Snape had a small amount of jealousy for all students who were recognized as brilliant - something he'd aimed to be when young, but had been unable to achieve recognition for.

The only time we hear anything regarding Snape's abilities at school is in HBP, from one of Snape's teachers, Slughorn, who seemed to rate him rather highly. So, I see no reason to suspect that he wasn't recognised for his abilities whilst he was at school. Slughorn talking about Harry to Snape:

-'You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, the Draught of Living Death - never had a student produce a finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus '

Ironically, Slughorn doesn't know that Harry had been following instructions from Snape's own potions book.

It also seemed to me that Severus was a brilliant student (or he worked hard enough to be) and perhaps wasn't as recognized for it as he may have wanted to be...

As Snape gives every impression of being a brilliant student, I don't see why his teachers would not have given him recognition of his efforts and abilities in class. However, it seems to me that it is the Quidditch heroes like James that get all the glory and I can certainly see Snape feeling very resentful of this.

As Snape gives every impression of being a brilliant student, I don't see why his teachers would not have given him recognition of his efforts and abilities in class. However, it seems to me that it is the Quidditch heroes like James that get all the glory and I can certainly see Snape feeling very resentful of this.

Yeah, that last bit is kind of what I meant. I don't think being a good student (and one who was sort of an introverted oddball) would be something his peers would recognize... It seemed like the Quidditch jocks did get attention (like they do in most schools) and I don't think he understood why. I'm not sure he valued that stuff very much.

I do wonder how much attention he did get from his teachers. If he did do well in class and wasn't an engaging personality they may not have paid as much attention to him as they would have if he were more extroverted or struggled. It's sad, but possible. And Slughorn may not have paid him any mind beyond potions class. Severus didn't seem the type that Slughorn would put in a Slug Club scenario, for example.

However, I don't think he was jealous of students that displayed smarts while he was a teacher. Though, I do think that there were similarities in some of the students personalities and backgrounds that he may have seen in himself when he was their age. I see them as a reader anyway...

It was the other way around, Voldemort told Snape he'd decided on Harry. Snape then asked for the mother to be spared - and Dumbledore called that exchanging the son for the mother - and it could be seen as such if Dumbledore felt that Snape thought Voldy owed him one.

Yes, of course Voldie made the choice of Harry. Apparently I misinterpreted your comment:

So in other words, he [Snape or Voldemort?] would exchange the information about Harry for the sparing of the mother as his reward.

My apologies.

Did you also get the impression that Snape, like Hermione, wasn't the greatest on a broom?

When Harry first broke through to Snape's mind in his Occlumency lessons, there was that brief glimpse of a scrawny boy on a broom, apparently not doing too well in his first year flying lessons...

He must have been good enough to be a Quidditch match referee in Harry' first year. (they fly too, rght? someone remind me please)

I do wonder how much attention he did get from his teachers. If he did do well in class and wasn't an engaging personality they may not have paid as much attention to him as they would have if he were more extroverted or struggled. It's sad, but possible. And Slughorn may not have paid him any mind beyond potions class. Severus didn't seem the type that Slughorn would put in a Slug Club scenario, for example.

I agree, Snape's personality could possibly have had an effect on the type of communiction he had with his teachers, who may not have been as efffusive as they were with other good students. However, if he was as good a student as it is implied, I can see him getting very good grades and bring praised for his work. But, I also agree in that I don't think he would have been considered as Slug Club material. Then again, I'm not so sure he would have wanted to be.

Did you also get the impression that Snape, like Hermione, wasn't the greatest on a broom?

When Harry first broke through to Snape's mind in his Occlumency lessons, there was that brief glimpse of a scrawny boy on a broom, apparently not doing too well in his first year flying lessons...

Ah, I forgot about this... very interesting. It could have been a weakness of his at first, which he may hated even if he didn't put much stock in being a good flyer. It also makes it interesting to note that he eventually learned to fly without a broom.


He must have been good enough to be a Quidditch match referee in Harry' first year. (they fly too, rght? someone remind me please)

Maybe by then he was good enough, but not when he first learned? He may have even been made fun of if he didn't take to it quickly.

However, if he was as good a student as it is implied, I can see him getting very good grades and bring praised for his work. But, I also agree in that I don't think he would have been considered as Slug Club material. Then again, I'm not so sure he would have wanted to be.

Yeah, that's what I think may have happened...

Did you also get the impression that Snape, like Hermione, wasn't the greatest on a broom?

When Harry first broke through to Snape's mind in his Occlumency lessons, there was that brief glimpse of a scrawny boy on a broom, apparently not doing too well in his first year flying lessons...

Indeed, he does not seem to have any natural talent for flying.

He must have been good enough to be a Quidditch match referee in Harry' first year. (they fly too, rght? someone remind me please)

So, he must have perservered in order to be good enough at flying to be a referee at the Quidditch match.

It also makes it interesting to note that he eventually learned to fly without a broom.

That is interesting! :D I think this only shows Snape's determination to excel. It is this lack of determination that I think he sees as a short coming in Harry during Occlumency classes.

I don't think we can debate that Snape wasn't a very strong wizard. We've been told by numerous people that he is indeed a good wizard and excels at a lot of things. I also think that he'd have to be in order to be in good standing with Voldemort. Wizards like Peter were apparently allowed, but they were treated more as butlers than anything else. We don't have any indication that Snape was ever treated thus. We've also seen several times that he really has a dislike for those he feels can't or don't excel appropriately.

It is this lack of determination that I think he sees as a short coming in Harry during Occlumency classes.

I agree with this. I think Snape was very frustrated with Harry simply because he felt that Harry wasn't really trying and didn't deem it important to put the effort into it. I also think he really expected Harry to be at a higher level with a lot of things than he was. I'm not sure if Snape had a reason to think these things, or if he was basing his expectations on Harry's parentage.

As Snape gives every impression of being a brilliant student, I don't see why his teachers would not have given him recognition of his efforts and abilities in class. However, it seems to me that it is the Quidditch heroes like James that get all the glory and I can certainly see Snape feeling very resentful of this.

Quidditch heroes? Sirius never made the team. I don't think that rationale stands. There is evidence that Sirius couldn't have ridden in on James coattails in the 'intelligence' department as well; Harry and Ron were in no way considered the best in their year merely because Hermione was. Additionally, Harry was a Quidditch star and got no acclaim relative to academic smarts.

Snape simply was not noted in canon as having the academic performance of two of his enemies and while one can assume he did well enough in his courses (and perhaps even excelled in potions), this is not enough to garner the title of 'most clever in his year' or immensely intelligent. That is what I feel Snape aimed to be, for the reasons I gave above. I am not insinuating he was unintelligent, he clearly did fine - but he simply didn't do as well as James and Sirius academically. Their achievements in that regard were highlighted in the series as were Hermione's, but Snape's were not (with the potions exception - but again, a single comment by one professor concerning one potion isn't enough to confer academic brilliance, imo - especially since Slughorn also opined that Harry, using Snape's recipe, apparently had a result that may have bested Snape's performance).

So while it may not have mattered to Snape at all, I was merely suggesting that it may have. It could have played a role in his view of both his enemies and Hermione. They all had being in Gryffindor in common and they all received praise where he did not. Based on Snape's personality, it is possible (although not certain) that this might have been a factor in his behavior toward Hermione (and others like her) credited with the title 'most clever in their year'. Both because his enemies were and because he was not (they were supposed to be brawny not brainy) and he would subsequently be reminded of that fact whenever a Gryffindor earned the title during his teaching career.

So, he must have perservered in order to be good enough at flying to be a referee at the Quidditch match.

Referees don't have to be good at all, they merely have to be able to balance on a broom and remain seated on it. Most referees love the sports they judge and would play if they actually had any talent. For example, hockey refs have to be able to skate, but the quality of their skating cannot generally be compared to that of the professionals they judge.

I agree, Snape's personality could possibly have had an effect on the type of communiction he had with his teachers, who may not have been as efffusive as they were with other good students. However, if he was as good a student as it is implied, I can see him getting very good grades and bring praised for his work. But, I also agree in that I don't think he would have been considered as Slug Club material. Then again, I'm not so sure he would have wanted to be.

I feel that if JKR wanted us to understand Snape had been a brilliant student, or one that was at the top of his year, she would have included it in the canon. I agree that Slughorn didn't likely invite him to the Slug Club - but because he was a budding Death Eater. Slughorn seemed to have a policy against inviting those who would follow Voldemort - perhaps due to his experiences with the dark lord while he was in school and a member of the club. I don't know if Snape would have wished to be in the club - it was a sign that there was a mark of greatness about you or with respect to one's family, so perhaps he would have. On the other hand, he might not wish to be associated with those in the club in any case. But I doubt he got the invite due to Slughorn's policy which I assume went into effect when Voldemort began showing his subversive nature and behavior.

Agreed, but why? That is the bit I was addressing - and admittedly vendetta is too strong a word. But Snape's focus was upon her for that reason and it does make one wonder why. A brilliant student (know all about a particular subject matter being studied in a classroom which is what a professor wants of the student) is different than a brilliant friend or acquaintance (know all about everything which no one does). And why immediately? The first day of class, one can't really be said to be a 'know it all' as they have not yet displayed their knowledge. The very idea that she might have knowledge was the only thing Snape could have been predicating his behavior on at that point, imo. However, later, when he confirmed she was indeed knowledgeable, he continued to respond that way and again one must ask why that might be considering they were in a classroom.

I think Snape gives the reason himself. In the HBP, he tells Hermione what was wrong with her "know-it-all" attitude.

An answer copied almost word for word from the The Standard Book of Spells, Grade 6', said Snape dismissively (over in the corner Malfoy sn.iggereded), 'but correct in essentials.

Snape had made corrections, and was innovative enough to improve the potions in his potions book and he had also created spells and even potions perhaps, and he may have even improved existing spells by making/creating variations of them. Hermione was brilliant I agree, but she does not seem to push for that improvement or have the innovativeness that Snape perhaps expected someone like Hermione to have. That could be why he dismissed her know-it-all attitude so IMO.

I think he wanted her to be more imaginative.

Quidditch heroes? Sirius never made the team. I don't think that rationale stands. There is evidence that Sirius couldn't have ridden in on James coattails in the 'intelligence' department as well; Harry and Ron were in no way considered the best in their year merely because Hermione was. Additionally, Harry was a Quidditch star and got no acclaim relative to academic smarts.

I was speaking in general and not directly in relation to the Marauders. Being academically bright gives you recognition from your teachers but does not generally make you popular with your peers. Both James and Sirius were very bright, but James was also admired for his Quidditch skills, Sirius was good looking and both had outgoing personalitites making them popular. Snape on the other hand was most probably very bright, but an oddball. I also think that Snape had to work very hard at his achievements ,whereas I got the impression that James and Sirius didn't and I think this may have bugged Snape somewhat.


Snape simply was not noted in canon as having the academic performance of two of his enemies and while one can assume he did well enough in his courses (and perhaps even excelled in potions), this is not enough to garner the title of 'most clever in his year' or immensely intelligent.

I think we were given evidence of Snape's intellegence from his potions book. Which contained, not only notes on improvements to potions, but also spells and counter-spells that he invented himself whilst still at school. Although, I agree with you that we do not get a comment from any of his teachers, on his all round academic performance in school, as we do with James and Sirius.


So while it may not have mattered to Snape at all, I was merely suggesting that it may have. It could have played a role in his view of both his enemies and Hermione.

Of course, it may be a possibility. :)

Referees don't have to be good at all, they merely have to be able to balance on a broom and remain seated on it. Most referees love the sports they judge and would play if they actually had any talent. For example, hockey refs have to be able to skate, but the quality of their skating cannot generally be compared to that of the professionals they judge.

I wasn't aware of that, but I think he still must have had to persevere to master just staying on a broom, because he certainly seemed to have had absolutely no talent in that direction, if we go from the scene we see during the Occlumency lessons. :)

I don't think we've enough canon material about Snape and the Marauder's academic and sports skills to draw assumptions from. Meaning pointing out that Sirius wasn't the best student (imo he was lazy) or Snape couldn't match James.

Personally though I think Snape was a really good student and a very talented wizard, otherwise I doubt he would have been able to trick Voldemort.

Personally though I think Snape was a really good student and a very talented wizard, otherwise I doubt he would have been able to trick Voldemort.

I agree. Snape not only tricked Voldemort, he also created new spells and made positive corrections to potions in his Advanced Potion - Making. I think Snape was more intelligent than the Marauders, but I would say they were not far behind.

I agree. Snape not only tricked Voldemort, he also created new spells and made positive corrections to potions in his Advanced Potion - Making. I think Snape was more intelligent than the Marauders, but I would say they were not far behind.

But, as Hes says, we have no canon to prove that Severus was more intelligent than the Marauders (they were ALL more intelligent than Peter, that's for sure :whistle: ) :shrug: James, Sirius and Remus all seem like pretty intelligent blokes to me.

I think we do have sufficient canon to show that Severus was hard-working as a student, and intelligent (I would argue), and that as an adult, he was a very gifted wizard. :cool:

While I agree we don't have much to compare/contrast skills between Snape and the Marauders, I came to the conclusion Snape was more intelligent than the Marauders because

The Marauders :: Animagus and Marauder's Map. And General intelligence. (Did I miss anything else?)

Snape :: Created new spells, corrections to potions in his Advanced potion-making, Occlumency/Legilimency, expert in DADA and logic (his challenge in PS/SS). (he flew in the 7 Potters and he was up to refereering in PS/SS, his work as a spy for almost 18 years. And general brilliance as well. :)

Maybe we could keep this here about Snape, but leave the Marauders out? Comparisons to other students, for particular these four, never seemed to have helped to get a better grip on Severus Snape's character so far. :)

I don't think we've enough canon material about Snape and the Marauder's academic and sports skills to draw assumptions from. Meaning pointing out that Sirius wasn't the best student (imo he was lazy) or Snape couldn't match James.

Personally though I think Snape was a really good student and a very talented wizard, otherwise I doubt he would have been able to trick Voldemort.

I completely agree! There just isn't enough evidence to make comparisons. So, I don't think we can say that anyone was more gifted academcally and therefore we cannot assume any jealousies in that regard.

Sorry gertie! :)

But with none of this information at his fingertips, Snape still agreed to go along with Dumbledore's plans relative to Harry. Both made a wrongful decision in that regard, imo, and I feel their only fault was non-disclosure until a time when Dumbledore felt it would be right to disclose. This, Dumbledore admitted was a lack of trust on his part and he admitted he'd been wrong in that regard and asked forgiveness for it. Thus, I feel the canon indicates that Dumbledore and Snape's behavior was wrongful. That is the distinction between the ghostly loved ones and Snape, imo, and why I feel it is an important one

For Dumbledore, it was a matter of preserving Harry's life. However, for Snape, it was a matter of sending the boy to certain death, placing the onus or moral duty on him to reveal what he knew to an even greater extent, imo (as it was a matter of Harry's very survival, life and death). However, I feel his own feelings toward Harry enabled him to follow Dumbledore's instructions without feeling a need to warn Harry of his impending doom.

There was a reason why Snape agreed with Dumbledore and gave Harry that message. As far as Snape was concerned it would be only after Voldemort's soul inside Harry was destroyed the war with Voldemort could come to an end because he did not know about the existence of the other horcruxes IMO.

Not knowing about the other horcruxes, Snape would have come to a conclusion that it was because of this soul bit that Voldemort managed to come to life again after being defeated in Godric's Hollow, which would mean for Snape that the 2nd war was being fought and lives being lost was only because of this soul bit inside Harry IMO.

That would have placed on Snape the huge responsibility of allowing the war to continue for as long as Harry lived and maybe even after (for Dumbledore told him that Voldemort should himself kill Harry for the soul bit to be destroyed, so Snape would not have been sure if the soul bit would be destroyed if Harry died a natural death or if he was killed by any other person)or choosing to work with Dumbledore and ending the war. He choose the latter IMO.

Snape agreeing to tell Harry about this, only shows that while he turned to the light because of his action (of handing over half the Prophecy) which led to Voldemort choosing Harry and thereby placing Lily in danger, his work for the light was not only for Lily or Harry, but because he came to know, understand, realise and agree with the principles of the light and the Order that Dumbledore and others were fighting for IMO.

But I don't understand what you mean by placing an onus on him to reveal more to Harry. I thought Snape did reveal eveything to Harry through the memories.

All the speculation about whether Snape was a gifted student or not surpised me a bit. :hmm: I think we are given ample evidence in the books that Snape was hard-working, very intelligent and creative as a student and grew up to be an exceptionally powerful wizard. And I agree that he probably did not attract as much of his teachers attention as some other bright students due to his introverted and reserved personality. Although we know for sure that his Potions talents did not go unnoticed by Slughorn.

But with none of this information at his fingertips, Snape still agreed to go along with Dumbledore's plans relative to Harry. Both made a wrongful decision in that regard, imo, and I feel their only fault was non-disclosure until a time when Dumbledore felt it would be right to disclose. This, Dumbledore admitted was a lack of trust on his part and he admitted he'd been wrong in that regard and asked forgiveness for it. Thus, I feel the canon indicates that Dumbledore and Snape's behavior was wrongful.

I don't remember Dumbledore apologising to Harry in regards to not telling him about the Horcrux he was host to, or that fact that he would have to die. But, he does apologise for not trusting him with the information about the Hallows.

'The Deathly Hallows.' he said, and here was glad to see that the words wiped the smile from Dumbledore's face.
'Ah, yes,' he said. he even looked a little worried.
'Well?'.....

...'Can you forgive me?' he said. 'Can you forgive me for not trusting you? For not telling you? Harry, I only feared that you would fail as I had failed. I only dreaded that you would make my mistakes. I crave your pardon, Harry. I have known for some time now, that you are the better man.'

Snape knew nothing about the Hallows so could not have disclosed this information. As for not telling Harry sooner about his fate, I still do not see how this would have helped Harry. Rather, I think it would have distressed him.

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock. He and Sirius were very clever - clever enough to do well without really trying - unlike Hermione who works her butt off. James and Sirius were popular, amd I think that Severus could not work out why and assigned all sorts of reasons for it (such as James being good at quidditch) when in truth they were just a pair of jokers with a certain amount of charm. They were rebels without being "bad" and such people are nearly always popular with their peers.

ETA: Just realised I've missed an entire page of posts! :rolleyes:

I wasn't aware of that, but I think he still must have had to persevere to master just staying on a broom, because he certainly seemed to have had absolutely no talent in that direction, if we go from the scene we see during the Occlumency lessons. :)

The other alternative is that the broom was not behaving properly. Messing with a new, professional-standard broom such as the one Harry had requires (according to Hagrid) Dark Magic. But Snape doubtless could not have afforded such a broom as a child.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock.

Based only on the evidence of the HP books, I would have to disagree. Harry, the Twins, Draco, Cho, Cedric, Angelina - all these people are Quidditch players, and popular students. People are attracted to them *because* of this (see, e. g. Lav Lav). Perhaps this reflects not currentl reality in UK schools, but a convention of the "public school story" genre?

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

This makes a lot of sense to me as to explaining Snape's attitude towards Hermione.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock.

Although, Hogwarts is very British in most respects, I see a difference between a normal muggle UK school and Hogwarts were Quidditch is concerned. In Hogwarts, it is the only sport played and matches appear to be attended by nearly the whole school, so I just see it that more importance is attached to quidditch, than to a sport played in a muggle school, were there are many different sports played and were only a small percentage of the school attend matches. Sorry, getting rather off topic here. :)

ETA:The other alternative is that the broom was not behaving properly. Messing with a new, professional-standard broom such as the one Harry had requires (according to Hagrid) Dark Magic. But Snape doubtless could not have afforded such a broom as a child.

That's true! :agree:


The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

Snape himself actually shows some display of jealousy in regards to James's quidditch talent.

PoA, Snape's Grudge

'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup winners.'

I don't think we've enough canon material about Snape and the Marauder's academic and sports skills to draw assumptions from. Meaning pointing out that Sirius wasn't the best student (imo he was lazy) or Snape couldn't match James.

Personally though I think Snape was a really good student and a very talented wizard, otherwise I doubt he would have been able to trick Voldemort.

I respect your view. However, Snape never tricked Voldemort as a student, so I don't really see what one thing has to do with the other. I feel that adult Snape, like adult Kingsley, Moody and many other wizards showed they were very talented when older, but from that I don't feel it is possible to know what type of academic performance they had at Hogwarts.

I agree we don't have enough canon material to ascertain much, but we do have canon about Hermione wherein she was called the cleverest or best witch in her year and we have that same party saying the same about James and Sirius (POA) - and McGonagall also commenting on the intelligence of all three (POA/OOTP). That is enough for me to personally conclude that Snape may have drawn a similarity there also and that may have influenced his attitude and behavior toward Hermione in the classroom. I also think it is possible that had nothing to do with it and there might have been another reason.

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock. He and Sirius were very clever - clever enough to do well without really trying - unlike Hermione who works her butt off. James and Sirius were popular, amd I think that Severus could not work out why and assigned all sorts of reasons for it (such as James being good at quidditch) when in truth they were just a pair of jokers with a certain amount of charm. They were rebels without being "bad" and such people are nearly always popular with their peers.

This is another good idea, I hadn't thought of it from that standpoint, but that could have influenced Snape's view of Hermione. :tu:

ETA: Just realised I've missed an entire page of posts!

Me too. :rotfl:


Snape himself actually shows some display of jealousy in regards to James's quidditch talent. PoA, Snape's Grudge 'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup winners.'

I agree. "Every one thinks...big Quidditch Hero" were also among the words that Snape was muttering when speaking with Lily and he became very upset in memory #5 of the Prince's Tale (DH). So I also feel it was a factor for Snape by and through his own words.

All the speculation about whether Snape was a gifted student or not surpised me a bit. :hmm: I think we are given ample evidence in the books that Snape was hard-working, very intelligent and creative as a student and grew up to be an exceptionally powerful wizard. And I agree that he probably did not attract as much of his teachers attention as some other bright students due to his introverted and reserved personality. Although we know for sure that his Potions talents did not go unnoticed by Slughorn.

I agree. We may not be able to ascertain who was more intelligent (nor do we need to) but I think it was made clear that he was hard working, creative and very smart academically. We don't need to have anyone tell us this... we're shown it by the potions book, which contained spells other than potions, and by how he took on his exams... and by having grown up to be a very powerful wizard. He didn't spontaneously just become intelligent and powerful. He had the background knowledge from his schooling and his own talent and expanded upon that as he grew.

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.


I agree and I think that may be true with some of the other students as well.

The other alternative is that the broom was not behaving properly. Messing with a new, professional-standard broom such as the one Harry had requires (according to Hagrid) Dark Magic. But Snape doubtless could not have afforded such a broom as a child.

Oh, that's another interesting possibility. He was picked on from day one after all, so it wouldn't surprise me if the broom was jinxed. Both this possibility and his not being that good with a broom as a child are interesting ones though.

Based only on the evidence of the HP books, I would have to disagree. Harry, the Twins, Draco, Cho, Cedric, Angelina - all these people are Quidditch players, and popular students. People are attracted to them *because* of this (see, e. g. Lav Lav). Perhaps this reflects not currentl reality in UK schools, but a convention of the "public school story" genre?

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

Agreed. Quidditch seems to be a big part of the culture of the school. It was treated like a big deal by most of the students anyway. I mean the turn out at the matches was huge, if I remember right.

Based only on the evidence of the HP books, I would have to disagree. Harry, the Twins, Draco, Cho, Cedric, Angelina - all these people are Quidditch players, and popular students. People are attracted to them *because* of this (see, e. g. Lav Lav). Perhaps this reflects not currentl reality in UK schools, but a convention of the "public school story" genre?]

I am not sure I can agree with that. Cho and Angelina were popular? I don't recall that from the canon. I know Harry looked upon both with admiration, but I don't feel he stands for the student body in that case. I feel Draco was only popular in his house, the rest of the school appeared to have little liking for him. The twins appeared to be popular because of their hi-jinks as opposed to their Quidditch talent and while I think Cedric's talent played into it, I feel he was popular based on other reasons in addition to that. Plus Sirius was popular and not a Quidditch player and Ron was not popular and he was a Quidditch player (I don't think Lav Lav stood for the whole school either). I do think that they were all admired if they showed talent on the field, but it seemed to me that despite that, one could find themselves highly unpopular as Harry did for a time.

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

I don't see how Lupin was either misleading or lying. Even if Snape was jealous of the popularity garnered in part from that talent, his emotions would still be traced to the talent. But we know now that Lupin did not know the whole reason why Snape seemed to pinpoint James over Sirius in that regard - so he made a guess that it was the Quidditch talent which distinguished them - and I feel that was partially true. However, we know that Lily was also a factor, something Lupin was unaware of. If you meant JKR was misleading us in part, I agree - she didn't want to reveal the bit about Lily at that point.

Snape had made corrections, and was innovative enough to improve the potions in his potions book and he had also created spells and even potions perhaps, and he may have even improved existing spells by making/creating variations of them. Hermione was brilliant I agree, but she does not seem to push for that improvement or have the innovativeness that Snape perhaps expected someone like Hermione to have. That could be why he dismissed her know-it-all attitude so IMO.

I would agree with this. The fact that Hermoine could recite the book never impressed Snape much. It was just regurgitating back an answer. I think, to him, that kind of response actually means she's not as smart as people think she is.

I think we were given evidence of Snape's intellegence from his potions book. Which contained, not only notes on improvements to potions, but also spells and counter-spells that he invented himself whilst still at school. Although, I agree with you that we do not get a comment from any of his teachers, on his all round academic performance in school, as we do with James and Sirius.

Again I agree. We have no indication that James or Sirius ever went above and beyond what was expected of them. Even Hermonie, who likes to learn for learning's sake, still works at her grades. I think it was merely just easy for James and Sirius to do well. Just like someone who does well on standardized tests but might not know the material as well as someone else.

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

Very astute. It's always hard to see faults in others and recognize them in ourselves. I guess there's a reason opposites attract!

I guess I just don't see how Snape's intelligence or performance in school could be questioned. I feel we have more than enough canon to show he was very intelligent and had a big drive to succeed in what he was doing. The Potions book just cements that seeing as how he created many new spells on his own, and corrected a lot of things in the book itself that were STILL being taught when Harry took the class.

I would agree with this. The fact that Hermoine could recite the book never impressed Snape much. It was just regurgitating back an answer. I think, to him, that kind of response actually means she's not as smart as people think she is.

And yet the reader knows that Hermione is as intelligent as others believe. Are we supposed to take away that Snape was too unintelligent to realize this? He was present when she was placed on a time turner schedule and he has witnessed her work for 5 years up to this point. In my judgment, he would have to be rather simple not to realize how intelligent she was at that point.

Again I agree. We have no indication that James or Sirius ever went above and beyond what was expected of them. Even Hermonie, who likes to learn for learning's sake, still works at her grades. I think it was merely just easy for James and Sirius to do well. Just like someone who does well on standardized tests but might not know the material as well as someone else.

Well I believe it is only fair that everyone be allowed to speculate, but we have no canon on the matter other than what was offered in the book. It does not matter why Hermione, James and Sirius were called best or cleverest in their year, merely the fact that they were and Snape was not. That is all that is required, imo, for me to conclude that Snape may have had an issue with that fact.

I guess I just don't see how Snape's intelligence or performance in school could be questioned. I feel we have more than enough canon to show he was very intelligent and had a big drive to succeed in what he was doing. The Potions book just cements that seeing as how he created many new spells on his own, and corrected a lot of things in the book itself that were STILL being taught when Harry took the class.

The problem is, the potions book and Slughorn's comment is all that we have. To me that says Snape likely did well in potions (although if Harry did a better job - or questionably so - then others likely did as well.) You claim that we have more than enough canon - but in truth, we have none at all other than those two facts relative to Snape's Hogwart's performance (which I don't feel is more than enough, but rather, I feel it is little to nothing at all). Sure he had talent as an adult - many did - but that does not prove all of them excelled academically. Was Kingsley extremely intelligent with a drive to succeed while at Hogwarts merely because he showed those attributes as an adult? Maybe - maybe not. It is the same with Snape, imo.

In reality, there seems to be more importance placed on Snape's performance and/or brilliance in school than the fact that he was not "noted for it" - because it is only the latter that matters at all to the point I initially raised. His not being noted for it may have been a factor in his treatment of Hermione - or it may not have been. But it was merely a suggestion that it could have been because he was never "noted" for it by others in the way that she was. And as you pointed out above, he seemed to indicate her performance was subpar for some reason - when she was the best in her year. I don't feel the point was that Hermione *actually wasn't intelligent*. That is a conclusion that only bolsters Snape's behavior and point of view - I think JKR really meant that Hermione was actually brilliant when writing her character. Finding rationales for Snape that tear down Hermione's brilliance really doesn't work for me at all; not when there was no single other person in canon who indicated that Hermione was anything less than brilliant - something which she proved again and again in canon right before our eyes.

At no point in time did I ever say Hermoine was unintelligent. Hermoine is rarely able to think outside the box, able to put things in her own words and explain them to others. Instead she relies on regurgitating something straight out of the book. It shows no comprehension or understanding of the material. Having a photographic memory doesn't make you smart... it means you have a photographic memory. Smart is in the actual comprehension but Hermoine almost always chose to simply recite something back. Memorization isn't learning.

To someone like Snape, who obviously puts high regard on intelligence, this kind of behavior would be, at the very least, insanely irritating. Parroting back things just shows she reads well. She showed no inclination or even ability, like Snape did according to his old potions book, to work on things her own way.

For this reason I can see why Snape might not consider her as clever as other people did.

As usual, if you have any problems with a fellow member's post, use the report post button. There is absolutely no need to get personal. Thank you.

To someone like Snape, who obviously puts high regard on intelligence. Parroting back things just shows she reads well. IMO this is not fact. There is zero factual, canonical proof that Snape held intelligent students in high regard, IMO. If it were fact, IMO, then he'd embrace the intellect of the Ravenclaws and of Hermione, the student that is stated in canon as being the cleverest witch in whichever year they were in. It's an over-simplification, IMO, to say that all Hermione did was 'parrot' a book. She did have difficulty accepting poor markings, as in getting an Exceeds Expectations instead of an Outstanding.

She showed no inclination or even ability, like Snape did according to his old potions book, to work on things her own way.She showed ability far beyond her years, even Harry at times showed ability beyond his years.

Snape liked to experiment and we don't know who might have helped him perfect his little experiments, either, or if he did them all on his little lonesome. Hermione liked to stay out of trouble and play it safe {for the most part}. This in no way means that she either did not have inclination or ability or in any way lacked intellect high enough to garner Snape's regard, IMO.

There is canon that Snape observed Hermione's intelligence and recognised it. This would not, necessarily, prevent him from finding her parroting fo books annoying, naturally.

He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree..."

I presume he did not mean Ron. :lol:

There is canon that Snape observed Hermione's intelligence and recognised it. This would not, necessarily, prevent him from finding her parroting fo books annoying, naturally.

He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree..."

I presume he did not mean Ron. :lol:

Just an honest (imo) observation. He is not necessarily talking about academic achievement there. But in any case, if he is calling Harry mediocre to the last degree, that is not saying much about his 'more talented' friends. :lol: I think he was including Ron because he pluralized - which leads me to believe he wasn't thinking in terms of academics.

I think Snape's comments to Hermione as well as to Harry (like, 'little bit of talent on the Quidditch Pitch") were just jealousy on Snape's part - not of Hermione's intelligence or Harry's playing, but of the attention it garnered them.

There is canon that Snape observed Hermione's intelligence and recognised it. This would not, necessarily, prevent him from finding her parroting fo books annoying, naturally.

He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree..."

I presume he did not mean Ron. :lol::lol: I agree. He does seemingly acknowledge her intellect. And yes, just about everyone I know would be annoyed by someone who is an "insufferable know-it-all" and Severus would certainly be no exception. Look at how people thought of Percy and Hermione was quite Percy-like through-out the books and then she became more Mrs. Weasleyish.

:lol: I agree. He does seemingly acknowledge her intellect. And yes, just about everyone I know would be annoyed by someone who is an "insufferable know-it-all" and Severus would certainly be no exception. Look at how people thought of Percy and Hermione was quite Percy-like through-out the books and then she became more Mrs. Weasleyish.

I think it is natural for it to be annoying to young immature students, but note that it was not annoying to McGonagall, Lupin, Dumbledore, Binns or any other of the professors doing their jobs. The only other professor it annoyed that I recall was Umbridge...

Rita Skeeter didn't like her much either, but since this is about Snape. It's true that the other Professors did not show anything untoward in regards to Hermione's over-eagerness to excel, but then again, they each had different personalities too. Some teachers like that type of student, a teacher's pet; others do not. The first day at college, one of the Profs called all the students who'd sat in the first two row of seats suck ups and said that he'd only hand out high marks for excellent course work so unless they had vision/hearing problems he told them to go ahead and select different seats. :)

Though he certainly had the intelligence and experience to teach both Potions/Defense Against the Dark Arts, Sev really, IMO, made a lousy teacher.

I think it is natural for it to be annoying to young immature students, but note that it was not annoying to McGonagall, Lupin, Dumbledore, Binns or any other of the professors doing their jobs. The only other professor it annoyed that I recall was Umbridge...
It can be annoying to you, but a teacher should not be allowed to treat students like that. What Snape did to students is bullying in my eyes and by far nothing that a teacher should do. He should have kept his hate to himself.

She showed ability far beyond her years, even Harry at times showed ability beyond his years.
The sometimes apply rather advanced magic, but as far as I know neither showed magical creativity like Severus had. Hermione is very outspokenly against new, not Ministry approved (handwritten!) spells/methods, and while Harry uses them we never see him make anything up himself.

I agree and I think Snape exhibited an intelligence and a creativity in his School years that was uncommon. He was an expert in at least 4 fields; Potions, Defence Against the Dark Arts, Dark Arts and Occlumency. He also showed he could craft spells and create new potions by making changes to improve the existing ones. :)

Well I would say let's not get carried away by Snape having tried out mixing his potion in a different direction or chopping roots horizontally instead of vertically to see if it might work better. That exploratory experimenting is great, but only one aspect of broadening one's education. He was motivated to do that in potions and that is great. And of course he was not the only young person to come up with jinxes and such - as we saw the twins far outdid what he'd written in his book when it came to inventiveness in that regard.

However, practical application is also extremely important - did Snape ever clear up someone's eye glasses so that they could see and perform in the rain? Did he ever create a bottomless bag for the important and practical use of carrying around needed items? Did he create those proteus (sp) coins Hermione did based merely on her knowledge of the dark mark? Not that we know of. But Hermione did these things and if she learned basic skills that allowed her to apply magic in these ways, that shows a similar broadening of academia in terms of theory.

Harry similarly englarged on his basic skills - and while some of you may discredit athletics as a part of the educational curriculum, many don't. That he was able to excell at Quidditch spoke to more than mere flying skills, but technique, forethought and strategy as well. Those skills increased with each practice or game he participated in. Additionally, his knowledge of 'how' to perform various DADA spells was fortified by his personal enlargement on the ideas of 'when', 'where' and 'what' to use in that regard.

So I don't feel that one can elevate figuring out creative ways of improving potions above other means of enlarging on academia. And I don't believe that Hermione never did the former (like with the coins, she obviously did). Further, we have no idea what Hermione did in order to get outstanding marks - it is not revealed in canon. Thus for all we know, she may have been creatively coming up with her own way of doing things and was simply smart enough to remember it all without having to make scrawling comments in a book. Snape would not know if we base our conclusion on his regard for Hermione; he merely glanced at her "good" potions and said not a word about them - never asking how she achieved what she did.

In conclusion, I would say that Snape's comments to Hermione had little if any merit whatsoever in terms of her knowledge, ability or methodology. Nor do I feel one can conclude from his remarks how Hermione normally went about doing things. That she gave an answer to him on one of the few occassions he allowed her to speak that was similar to what was contained in the book, to me, speaks more to the fact that she might not have wished to enlarge for fear of Snape's normal responsive behavior and merely give an answer she knew he could not degrade her for (point in fact was that we KNOW she knew more because she is the one who pointed out that what Snape ended up saying is the same thing Harry had already said - i.e., knowledge Hermione DID have). However, if she believed that Snape would not belittle her as long as she stuck to the minimal correct answer, she was gravely mistaken. Snape behaved in a bullying manner toward the children so he could always come up with a means of degrading, belittling and humiliating them, imo. And frankly, I don't feel that Snape's potions achievements had anything to do with it because while great, I feel he understood that academic achievements come in many forms. Hermione's came in muliple forms and that is why she was noted as being the best in her year. Snape himself depended upon her brilliance in his nefarious attempt to expose Lupin, so I feel that his comments to her were more in line with his normal vindictive and bullying behavior rather than speaking to some type of academic chastisement meant in an encouraging light.