Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

However, practical application is also extremely important - did Snape ever clear up someone's eye glasses so that they could see and perform in the rain? Did he ever create a bottomless bag for the important and practical use of carrying around needed items? Did he create those proteus (sp) coins Hermione did based merely on her knowledge of the dark mark? Not that we know of. But Hermione did these things and if she learned basic skills that allowed her to apply magic in these ways, that shows a similar broadening of academia in terms of theory.

To clear up some one's glasses Hermione used a spell for that purpose, I presume. Is there anything to say she invented or improvised on the existing spell? (I don't remember). Did Hermoione create the bottomless bag or did she make it, because she knew they could be made (by which I mean there were spells for those and Hermione of course applied it corretly).

I am not saying Hermione was not intelligent. She was. She could join the dots better than anyone else in Harry's year. But was she creative and imaginative? I don't think so. And I feel Snape wanted her to be. I think he wanted her to take what she had understood from the book a bit a further.

I agree and I think Snape exhibited an intelligence and a creativity in his School years that was uncommon. He was an expert in at least 4 fields; Potions, Defence Against the Dark Arts, Dark Arts and Occlumency. He also showed he could craft spells and create new potions by making changes to improve the existing ones. :)

I thought Dark Arts and Occlumency were not taught at Hogwarts. Also couldn't the way Snape changed and created his new potions and spells be seen as exactly the same as Hermione's changing and creating new uses for already existing spells?
I have always thought that the twins were the most gifted in the books at creating new spells from scratch, and they did not resort to the Dark Art's to do so.

I thought Dark Arts and Occlumency were not taught at Hogwarts. Also couldn't the way Snape changed and created his new potions and spells be seen as exactly the same as Hermione's changing and creating new uses for already existing spells?
I have always thought that the twins were the most gifted in the books at creating new spells from scratch, and they did not resort to the Dark Art's to do so.

Dark Arts and Occlumency were not taught at Hogwarts. I was merely mentioning about the Mastery Snape had in these subjects, plus spell crafting.

While we know Snape created spells and improvised potions and could have created new potions as well, there isn't anything to say Hermione too created new spells. At least I don't rememeber. :)

The Twins were intelligent, but the most gifted I don't know. I always thought Snape was, not only for creating useful spells but for his Mastery in many subjects and his application of that knowledge in his work as a spy.

And I don't know if the Twins created new spells from scratch; I thought they used existing spells and potions in a clever combination to acheive the results they desired.

The Twins were intelligent, but the most gifted I don't know. I always thought Snape was, not only for creating useful spells but for his Mastery in many subjects and his application of that knowledge in his work as a spy.

Sort of like sneaking around the left of the building instead of the right? Or cutting up Order Members or DEs (depending which side he was on) that discovered him in a vertical rather than horizontal fashion? :lol:. I don't really think his potions trials were of much assistance in the actual spying bit, but I do think that all of his slinking around, stalking of, and spying on the Maruaders helped him out in that regard. :)

To clear up some one's glasses Hermione used a spell for that purpose, I presume. Is there anything to say she invented or improvised on the existing spell? (I don't remember). Did Hermoione create the bottomless bag or did she make it, because she knew they could be made (by which I mean there were spells for those and Hermione of course applied it corretly).


This is me not directly commenting on Snape. :scared: Ahem, I think the spell Hermione used to ensure the loyalty of DA was very inventive and all hers. Nobody seemed to be able to cure Marietta.

Now back to Snape...without any of my opinions. Or something.

I was merely mentioning about the Mastery Snape had in these subjects, plus spell crafting.Yes, but adding skills learned as an adult away from school it seemed that you were drawing a foregone conclusion between adult Snape's skills while at school and that of Hermione's while in school and find her lacking...which is, IMO, a skewed comparison.

We still do not know that Snape created those spells and thought up those potion additions all on his own. He could very well have done as he'd done with modifying an existing potion, that is take a known hex/jinx/curse and modify it, give it a new name and voila, he 'created it'.

Ahem, I think the spell Hermione used to ensure the loyalty of DA was very inventive and all hers. Nobody seemed to be able to cure Marietta.
:)
Ah yes, thanks, for that Hermione jinx info. I'll add her comprehension of Golpalott's Third Law or whatever it was...this requires a potioner to experimentally create an antidote for a poison from scratch, with zero "list" of ingredients.

I think we can take it that Hermione was extremely bright, and Severus recognised her as such. However that did not mean she was going to get an easy ride in his class. Snape wanted to stretch all his pupils - including the bright ones like Hermione. And he certainly would never, ever appear to be impressed by a student - even if he actually was impressed by a student!

And he certainly would never, ever appear to be impressed by a student - even if he actually was impressed by a student!

That is indisputably true! :lol:

I do often wonder whether Snape did actually respect Hermione's conscientiousness and giftedness, deep down, even though -- being him :whistle: -- he seems irritated at the outset by this eleven year old who is trying so painfully hard to impress and to please. Severus does have a terribly low tolerance threshold at times. :whistle:

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, if he did actually -- grudgingly -- admire Hermione's work, deep down.

But of course he would never own up to that. :whistle: Bless him. :D

I think we can take it that Hermione was extremely bright, and Severus recognised her as such. However that did not mean she was going to get an easy ride in his class. Snape wanted to stretch all his pupils - including the bright ones like Hermione. And he certainly would never, ever appear to be impressed by a student - even if he actually was impressed by a student!

I agree with what you have said, except that I truly don't believe that Snape was focused on ensuring that Hermione didn't get an easy ride - in terms of academics.

Hermione was in a rock in a hard place with Snape. If she gave comprehensive answers, she risked the humiliation of being called a "know it all" and if she gave concise correct answers, she was dismissed as not being comprehensive for a smart girl. Snape gave her no praise for her stellar potions work and chastised her for assisting others. I really don't see that his overall treatment of her could be called encouraging at all. His behavior was contradictory and possibly derived from jealousy, but in a practical sense, I feel it was his means of behaving toward her in a bullying manner as he did the other children.

Hermione's personality made it quite easy to do - but note that would not be the case with brilliant kids who were more sure of themselves. When Harry became self-assured (nee a bit arrogant) he slam dunked Snape into a desk and then became impertinent when Snape tried to chastise him for what to Harry, was a brilliant bit of skill displayed (his shield against Snape, albeit not done with the required silent spell). Indeed it had worked brilliantly and instead of praising Harry for that and encouragaging him to try it in silence, Snape became snotty about it. Harry's reaction was impertinence which I feel would be the response Snape would get from a kid like Sirius all the time (brilliant like Hermione, but unwilling to take any flack). As a professor, Snape's recourse was detention of course - but in truth, it may have done him a world of good to have to deal with a lot of kids like Sirius or Harry in his stellar moments, because it allowed for Snape to feel some humiliation in consequence for his bullying behavior and eventually may have set him straight a bit - but those type of students simply didn't come along all that often.

Snape wanted to stretch all his pupils - including the bright ones like Hermione.*couch*Draco*cough* I'm sorry, I gotta disagree. Snape didn't want to 'stretch' his pupils (unless it was with a jinx ;) ). Something tells me he'd have no issue recognizing her intellect favorably if she'd been a Slytherin.

Hermione's personality made it quite easy to do - but note that would not be the case with brilliant kids who were more sure of themselves. When Harry became self-assured (nee a bit arrogant) he slam dunked Snape into a desk and then became impertinent when Snape tried to chastise him for what to Harry, was a brilliant bit of skill displayed (his shield against Snape, albeit not done with the required silent spell). Indeed it had worked brilliantly and instead of praising Harry for that and encouraging him to try it in silence, Snape became snotty about it.

Indeed ... Harry and Snape are always confirming each other's stereotyping of the other's behaviour. But I don't think it's so much the slam-dunk as Harry's seemingly stubborn inability to follow instructions to the letter that gets up Snape's nose. :cool:

Arguably, he's too pedantic about that, of course. :whistle:

As a professor, Snape's recourse was detention of course - but in truth, it may have done him a world of good to have to deal with a lot of kids like Sirius or Harry in his stellar moments, because it allowed for Snape to feel some humiliation in consequence for his bullying behavior and eventually may have set him straight a bit - but those type of students simply didn't come along all that often.

I don't get the impression that Snape was terribly impressed by Gryffindor 'glamour boys' though. :eyebrows: :lol:

Snape, I believe, really does value the art of subtlety, hence his watchful monitoring of Harry and Ron during this scene. I am sure he was intensely exasperated at the methodology employed by the Boy Who Lived. This is the boy that Dumbledore is raising to fight Voldemort and he can't even use a Silent Spell, despite the clear instructions given to him by his DADA teacher? I can almost imagine Snape thinking: "Potter, when will you get your act together???!!!"

Don't get me wrong, I think Harry's slam-dunk of Snape in this scene is cool. :) And funny. :D

But it would have been even better had it been a Non-Verbal Spell.

Which, of course, is precisely Snape's point.

Something tells me he'd have no issue recognizing her intellect favorably if she'd been a Slytherin.

Yes, I have to admit that I think Severus was pretty partisan. :D :) He did always regard Slytherin as the best House.

But then, Minerva is rather partisan too. :) She's just a lot nicer about it. :D

Indeed ... Harry and Snape are always confirming each other's stereotyping of the other's behaviour. But I don't think it's so much the slam-dunk as Harry's seemingly stubborn inability to follow instructions to the letter that gets up Snape's nose. :cool:

Arguably, he's too pedantic about that, of course. :whistle:

I would respectfully disagree. I think Snape was humiliated by the slam dunk. I don't think that happened to him very often and having it occur before the students was likely a blow to his ego, especially at the hands of James - er - Harry.

I don't get the impression that Snape was terribly impressed by Gryffindor 'glamour boys' though. :eyebrows: :lol:

Well that wasn't the point. It was that some students are willing to fight back when it comes to bullying professors. I don't care if they are glamour, jocks, glam girls, nerds or goths - it is the attitude of the student I was referring to.

Snape, I believe, really does value the art of subtlety, hence his watchful monitoring of Harry and Ron during this scene. I am sure he was intensely exasperated at the methodology employed by the Boy Who Lived. This is the boy that Dumbledore is raising to fight Voldemort

Actually at this point Snape knew Harry was being raised for the slaughter, which makes his behavior all the more unreasonable, imo. Just leave the kid alone; you hardly need to harrass him into learning how to stand there, do nothing and be killed.

and he can't even use a Silent Spell, despite the clear instructions given to him by his DADA teacher? I can almost imagine Snape thinking: "Potter, when will you get your act together???!!!"

Why? You mean against DEs? Even then, Harry has been up against Voldemort 4 times and other DEs as well - so far so good as far as Snape knows. Harry is still alive and Snape refuses to appreciate the miracle of that, imo. He relegates it to luck and friends and that was Snape's primary problem. Snape was nearly as blind as Voldemort when it came to the power of love.

Don't get me wrong, I think Harry's slam-dunk of Snape in this scene is cool. :) And funny. :D

Well yeah, but that was beside the point also. I was more talking about Snape's response to it. But your above point brought out an even more important idea, imo, because there was no need to attack Harry in the way he did in the first place. And apparently, even with a non silent spell, Harry did just fine. The purpose was to defend one's self and Snape can't say Harry didn't do that.

But it would have been even better had it been a Non-Verbal Spell. Which, of course, is precisely Snape's point.

Why? It worked brilliantly. Harry never had a problem with defense. Later when Snape was escaping Hogwarts, Harry was on the offense and he wasn't doing too good a job at that. But Harry's life (what was left of it based on what Snape knew) was going to be full of defensive action. As Snape found out, Harry never has a problem with that, even if you get him to the point where he is down and out, because love saves him. But Snape didn't get it. He'd look back on that and call Harry lucky for Buckbeak having come along. But you know what? Buckbeak more than likely would not have come along to rescue Draco or Snape - why? That is the question Snape should have pursued and it would have likely led him to another realization - and what was truly important in terms of teaching Harry, imo.

The idea of silent spells in defense makes little sense anyway in light of the fact that your attacker has already issued his spell. Your silence can't change anything about that. :hmm:

Actually at this point Snape knew Harry was being raised for the slaughter, which makes his behavior all the more unreasonable, imo. Just leave the kid alone; you hardly need to harrass him into learning how to stand there, do nothing and be killed.

Er....actually Snape didn't know about Harry's fate at this point. The incident when Harry slam dunked Snape into the desk, happened on the very first day of term. Snape was not told Harry would have to die, until sometime toward the end of February. It was on Ron's birthday(March 1st), when he ends up in hospital, that Hagrid tells Harry about the conversation he overheard a few days earlier, between Snape and Dumbledore in the forest. From Snape's memories we know that it was during that conversation that Dumbledore asked Snape to come to his office that evening and it was then that Snape was told the truth about Harry's fate.
So, at the time of the "slam dunk", Snape was probably under the impression that Harry would have to duel Voldemort to defeat him.

Well that might be the case - if we figure Hagrid's conversation was just a few days before - however, it wouldn't help explain Snape's behavior subsequent to February, which didn't improve - including his very last encounter with Harry (not counting his dying moment). Snape's behavior during that time to me shows that the information made not a smidgeon of difference to Snape. Knowing that a student I was not fond of had to die would change my perspective relative to the small amount of time they had left quite a lot. So I guess I just have a difficult time understanding how Snape would carry on with the same attitude and behavior after he had that knowledge - what with him purporting to be on the good side and all and not wishing for innocents to die. His spewing venom and hatred, and showing disrespect for Harry, knowing what he had to go through, is incomprehensible - despite the fact that he unfairly hated the child. Seriously, JKR should have just indicated that he had a mental deficiency and it would have been much easier to explain Snape. It truly does offend my moral sense of justice because Snape was allowed to get away with way too much that not even his undergoing a harsh death - ala sympathized by the memories - could repay (in a literary sense).

It is interesting, but I think if just once, someone, most acceptably Sirius (speaking as if he'd knowledge), had belittled and degraded Snape for his obsessive, possessive and wholly selfish feelings for a woman he'd helped to kill, highlighted the immorality of his attitude and behavior relative to Lily and James and fervently declared that Lily would have never given a 'vile, cruel, bullying' person like him the time of day even under the best of circumstances - and would have been disgusted and offended at his emotions for her, and possibly even adding that she'd been disgusted with him the whole time they were friends because of his nature, then I might feel that some justice - in the sense of balance - had been done. And of course it matters not at all how truthful the hurtful statements were, because Snape would feel the possibility of truth ringing in them, and just once, feel the humiliation, saddness, angst, and trauma that arises when someone makes those type of comments to you; rubbing rock salt in your already festering wounds. I believe that was a big part of Snape's problem - he never, ever got in return that which he doled out oh too frequently to others. Tonks, Sirius, Lupin, Neville, Harry and others had to deal with his behavior in that regard and it was extremely injurious, imo.

Seriously, JKR should have just indicated that he had a mental deficiency and it would have been much easier to explain Snape.:lol: I think one sociopathic madman was enough. Antipathy and bullying aren't mental deficiencies and seeing as his behavior and his actions are what leads him to be such a complex and much debated character, I'm glad that JK spared us a simple diagnosis/explanation.

I don't see why Snape shoudl be impressed by harry's "slam dunk" of him into a desk. He was already aware, and had already acknowledged, as of the previous year, that Harry has a powerful Shield Charm in his DADA arsenal.

'Reparo,' hissed Snape, and the jar sealed itself at once. 'Well, Potter… that was certainly an improvement…' Panting slightly, Snape straightened the Pensieve in which he had again stored some of his thoughts before starting the lesson, almost as though he was checking they were still there. 'I don't remember telling you to use a Shield Charm… but there is no doubt that it was effective…'

So, I think he was neither impressed (since it was old news) nor unduly annoyed, by the charm itself. He was quite correct to point out Harry was not doing the exercise he had assigned. But what got Harry into trouble (as is often the case in Snape's classes) was his smart mouth. That's what the detention was for. :D

I don't see why Snape shoudl be impressed by harry's "slam dunk" of him into a desk. He was already aware, and had already acknowledged, as of the previous year, that Harry has a powerful Shield Charm in his DADA arsenal.

'Reparo,' hissed Snape, and the jar sealed itself at once. 'Well, Potter… that was certainly an improvement…' Panting slightly, Snape straightened the Pensieve in which he had again stored some of his thoughts before starting the lesson, almost as though he was checking they were still there. 'I don't remember telling you to use a Shield Charm… but there is no doubt that it was effective…'

So, I think he was neither impressed (since it was old news) nor unduly annoyed, by the charm itself. He was quite correct to point out Harry was not doing the exercise he had assigned. But what got Harry into trouble (as is often the case in Snape's classes) was his smart mouth. That's what the detention was for. :D

True, but Harry did the exercise well - he defended himself and that was the point, no? I mean, I don't see what good silence does on defense anyway, and whatever benefit it might have was apparently unnecessary if you are Harry Potter because a spoken spell still downed Snape.

But I think he would be embarrassed because Snape was not the type to laugh off slights of dignity. Harry's remark was smart mouthed, but in light of Snape's treatment of him, I'd have to say that in the scheme of things, it was pretty mild. Normally I disapprove of students behaving that way, but not in this case.

True, but Harry did the exercise well - he defended himself and that was the point, no? I mean, I don't see what good silence does on defense anyway, and whatever benefit it might have was apparently unnecessary if you are Harry Potter because a spoken spell still downed Snape.


The point wasn't to defend himself. The point was to keep someone from reading his mind... which he could never do.

As for whether or not Snape created those spells himself:

Page 604 of HBP, Chapter 28, Flight of the Prince.

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them -- I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so... no!"

Snape might have been a lot of things, but we never saw him take credit for something he didn't do. It would seem to me if I said he created those spells, then he did.

The point wasn't to defend himself. The point was to keep someone from reading his mind... which he could never do.

As for whether or not Snape created those spells himself:

Page 604 of HBP, Chapter 28, Flight of the Prince.

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them -- I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so... no!"

Snape might have been a lot of things, but we never saw him take credit for something he didn't do. It would seem to me if I said he created those spells, then he did.Non-verbal spells do not equate to Occlumency, as your quote proves. We see Harry 'thinking' the spell to cast it non-verbally.

The class was to all practice something they'd never done before, to begin the mastery of non-verbal spells. Hermione was one of the only one's to actually get it right, as per usual. We didn't see Snape attempt to hex any other student in the class. He chose Harry as a guinea pig, tossed a curse at him and Harry defended himself. Then he was a smart mouth to the Professor.

Did Snape at any point in that class believe Harry'd mastered non-verbal spells? IMO, no. The spell rebounded and knocked Snape over, can we assume that had Harry not countered it then he'd have been knocked off his feet?

As for his claiming things he'd never done, do we know this for absolute certainly? I seem to remember him fudging some info as a double agent, unless we're to believe everything he said to Bella and Cissy as literal fact, in which case it alters perceptions of his character even further.

True, but Harry did the exercise well - he defended himself and that was the point, no? .

Actually, I thought the class was about casting non-verbal spells and the whole point of the exercise was to practice casting non-verbal spells. All the students could already cast spells verbally.

DH,The Half -Blood Prince

'You will now divide,' Snape went on, 'into pairs. one partner will attempt to jinx the other without speaking. The other will attempt to repel the jinx in equal silence.'

So, I cannot agree with you that Harry did the exercise well, as he did not do what was required.

Well of course he didn't do it. Who in the class did manage to master non-verbal spells for the very first time? Hermione. That's it. Did Snape attack her? No. Did he attack anyone else? No. Just Harry.

I'm sorry, but IMO it's a wee ridiculous to expect everyone in that class to master something the very first go round. "...you are, I believe, complete novices in the use of non-verbal spells."

Non-verbal spells do not equate to Occlumency, as your quote proves. We see Harry 'thinking' the spell to cast it non-verbally.

The class was to all practice something they'd never done before, to begin the mastery of non-verbal spells. Hermione was one of the only one's to actually get it right, as per usual. We didn't see Snape attempt to hex any other student in the class. He chose Harry as a guinea pig, tossed a curse at him and Harry defended himself. Then he was a smart mouth to the Professor.

Did Snape at any point in that class believe Harry'd mastered non-verbal spells? IMO, no. The spell rebounded and knocked Snape over, can we assume that had Harry not countered it then he'd have been knocked off his feet?

As for his claiming things he'd never done, do we know this for absolute certainly? I seem to remember him fudging some info as a double agent, unless we're to believe everything he said to Bella and Cissy as literal fact, in which case it alters perceptions of his character even further.


Sorry I thought we were discussing Harry throwing Snape back during the occlumency lessons. Which is where the previous quote came from if I'm not mistaken. And if that's the case, then no, Harry never did manage to do what he was assigned to do, not by Snape but by Dumbledore.

Ok, sorry, but saying he lied while he was talking to Cissy and Bella seems a little...I dunno, obvious, to me. Of course he lied. He was SUPPOSED to lie. How else was he supposed to protect his position as a double agent? And a lot of what he said wasn't a lie, just a very clever play on words.

However we never saw him take credit for things, even thing we know for a fact he did, around the school. He could have easily pointed out to a number of classes that he thought of new and improved ways of making potions. Heck he could have even made the point to Slughorn while he was in his class. He could have taken credit for those spells, but he never did because Lupin never knew who created them, he only states they were very much in fashion during his school years. He could have bragged to his classes that he was a master at things other than potions, which he never did. He never even took credit for saving Harry's life way back in SS/PS. Harry only knew because Dumbledore told him. At the very least Harry owed Snape a thank you for that, which I somehow doubt he ever bothered to give. There are plenty of things Snape could have easily taken credit for that he never did. So why would he take credit for creating spells he didn't create? To our knowledge those spells were never in any other spell books. Seems to me if we were to believe they weren't created by Snape, JKR would have pointed out that they were in other books as well. But they weren't. They were hand written in Snape's old book.

Sorry I thought we were discussing Harry throwing Snape back during the occlumency lessons. Which is where the previous quote came from if I'm not mistaken. And if that's the case, then no, Harry never did manage to do what he was assigned to do, not by Snape but by Dumbledore.:blush: Oh, I'm sorry, Labrynth---I thought everyone was discussing the first DADA class that Snape taught, in regards to non-verbal spells.

We know that Harry never mastered Occlumency, we also know there was an underlying issue as to why he'd not ever be successful at it. He couldn't shut off/compartmentalize his emotions/reactions. That's why Snape and Draco were so good at it. Plus, there was very little to any type of real instruction as to how to accomplish the task, except what Snape continued to tell him "Close your mind"...okay, but how??? "You're weak, pathetic, arrogant just like your father...but you must control your emotions." Even Dumbledore admitted it was a mistake to have Snape try and teach Harry Occlumency, and intimates it was the past issues Snape had with James that basically equated to fail in those lessons.

You know, it's really rather interesting but during that lesson in which Harry breaks into Snape's mind wasn't Snape a bit out of control? I guess you really do need to be cucumber cool to accomplish it.
Ok, sorry, but saying he lied while he was talking to Cissy and Bella seems a little...I dunno, obvious, to me. Of course he lied. He was SUPPOSED to lie. How else was he supposed to protect his position as a double agent? And a lot of what he said wasn't a lie, just a very clever play on words.I totally agree here, so don't misunderstand. :) It's just that what you said was "Snape might have been a lot of things, but we never saw him take credit for something he didn't do." We know this is not true, we know that he claimed credit for things he very likely did not do...such as "...the info I have passed to him on the Order. It led, perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmaline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black..."

Because he is a double agent he's had to make certain claims, slant the truth or even invent it, and he does appear to take credit for a crime which I don't believe he was involved with. I could be entirely wrong, especially considering the leaking the info of Harry's departure date on Dumbledore's orders and then coming up with the Seven Potters to attempt to keep Harry safe...although why no one thought to put Harry in Moody's trunk and then cart it away from the place while Polyjuiced as the Dursley's I'll never know!

However the point I was making was to rebutt what you'd said. We know that Snape played the game to perfection and that he did make certain claims to fame that he may/may not have done. Personally I do believe he invented the spells, or at the very least modified and improved existing ones.

:huh: But we are talking about the DADA class in HBP, not Occlumency. Sure, in both cases, Harry didn't do what he was told to, but the circumstances are different, even if the method is similar (the student or students needing only concentration to pull off the task).

As for the DADA class, I'm not too sure why it's an issue that the kids are told to do a task they've never done before. It seems to me that not only is that Snape's normal method, but other teachers seem to do that too from time to time. I don't like it, but I never got the impression Hogwarts was the most enlightened school ever. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/s/shrug.gif
In fact, the method Snape uses during that class in particular is very similar to how Harry taught the DA...the only difference being that Harry's more patient and friendly. :lol:

The point wasn't to defend himself. The point was to keep someone from reading his mind... which he could never do.

Was that the point? A lot of good it did Snape.

:huh: But we are talking about the DADA class in HBP, not Occlumency. Sure, in both cases, Harry didn't do what he was told to, but the circumstances are different, even if the method is similar (the student or students needing only concentration to pull off the task).

As for the DADA class, I'm not too sure why it's an issue that the kids are told to do a task they've never done before. It seems to me that not only is that Snape's normal method, but other teachers seem to do that too from time to time. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/s/shrug.gif In fact, the method is very similar to how Harry taught the DA...the only difference being that Harry's more patient and friendly. :lol:
Oh, thank you. I'm so confused. :lol:

I've no issue with the practical application of Defense. Someone's definitely gonna get knocked about in that class and no one whined when Moody put the students through rigorous defense practice or when Lupin exposed the students to potentially lethal creatures {red caps, etc} or when Hagrid led a plethora of extremely dangerous creatures to class.

The reason that I'm emphasizing it as the first class is because such emphasis is being placed on Harry for not 'doing as he'd been instructed'. They were all trying to do the lesson with non-verbal spells. Which is what they were asked to do. "Attempt", not "Master". To expect complete perfection in the very first lesson is to expect everyone to be Hermione, IMO. Not possible and frankly not a fun read, either.

Yeah, Harry reacted instinctively to an attack by someone he considered an enemy. I don't see that as wrong. His smart mouth, on the other hand, is a different story entirely.

He never even took credit for saving Harry's life way back in SS/PS. Harry only knew because Dumbledore told him. At the very least Harry owed Snape a thank you for that, which I somehow doubt he ever bothered to give.

Well to be fair, Snape couldn't really take credit because he got zinged by Hermione midstride and it was Hermione that ended up saving Harry. I am curious why you feel that Harry should have thanked Snape for attempting to save him (and failing - not his fault) in light of Snape's behavior toward Harry throughout the school year. I feel that only a person with no self worth at all would even consider thanking Snape in that circumstance.

He could have taken credit for those spells, but he never did because Lupin never knew who created them, he only states they were very much in fashion during his school years

Just my opinion, but I'd imagine he didn't take credit for Levicorpus for the same reason the Twins or Marauders would not take credit for their jinxes and pranks. It would have likely gotten them in trouble. I think the reason he didn't take credit for Sectumsempra prior to HBP is pretty straightforward.

There are plenty of things Snape could have easily taken credit for that he never did. So why would he take credit for creating spells he didn't create? To our knowledge those spells were never in any other spell books. Seems to me if we were to believe they weren't created by Snape, JKR would have pointed out that they were in other books as well. But they weren't. They were hand written in Snape's old book.

Actually I don't recall anyone arguing that these spells were not invented by Snape. Well sometime ago, Zara suggested they might not have been. But I agree with you and feel the canon indicated that he did create the spells.

:huh: But we are talking about the DADA class in HBP, not Occlumency. Sure, in both cases, Harry didn't do what he was told to, but the circumstances are different, even if the method is similar (the student or students needing only concentration to pull off the task).

Harry was just defending himself - Defense against the dark arts. He did a good job at it too. He didn't do it silently, but since silent defense spells serve no purpose whatsoever as far as I can see, I don't see the problem. If Snape wished Harry to practice silent spells, then he should have left him alone. He silenced Snape, at least for a moment, that's something. :D

Well of course he didn't do it. Who in the class did manage to master non-verbal spells for the very first time? Hermione. That's it. Did Snape attack her? No. Did he attack anyone else? No. Just Harry.

"Attack"?! :lol:

Snape provided Harry with an opportunity to practice the technique he was learning in that class.An opportunity Harry did not have while practicing with Ron. ;)

"Attack"?! :lol:

Snape provided Harry with an opportunity to practice the technique he was learning in that class.An opportunity Harry did not have while practicing with Ron. ;)

True, and Harry provided Snape with an opportunity to practice defending against his shield charm again...and Snape failed again...hit by spells of his own making both times and both spells were fierce, aggressive and overboard, imo. To me, Snape was defeated both times for the same reason. Snape's overall justification for his actions was admirable, wonderful and everything to be desired. But in those two little moments just before he found himself before Harry's shield, his ends were nefarious, imo. I believe that is why JKR wrote it in the manner she did. What was the point of having Harry best Snape in those two instances otherwise?

"Attack"?! :lol:

Snape provided Harry with an opportunity to practice the technique he was learning in that class.An opportunity Harry did not have while practicing with Ron. ;)Sure, attack.

As the aggressor, Snape took the offensive position/attack mode; Harry reacted instinctively to that offensive move and successfully resisted that attack, the defensive or defended position. Common in sports, martial arts, chess, and strategic warfare. The phrase is 'the best offense is a good defense'. Snape's defense wasn't that good. :lol:

Was that the point? A lot of good it did Snape.

But Snape wasn't the focus for those lessons was he? Voldemort was. Sure, he caught Snape off guard with the shield charm (And it was pretty well done actually), but that still wasn't the point of the Occ classes. They wanted him to be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind. Not have to defend himself once Voldemort got in. Once he got in and had a few seconds to rummage around, he'd likely know everything he needed. We already knew Harry could defend himself physically from Voldemort... he'd already done it on a number of occasions. But he couldn't defend himself mentally against Voldemort.

Well to be fair, Snape couldn't really take credit because he got zinged by Hermione midstride and it was Hermione that ended up saving Harry. I am curious why you feel that Harry should have thanked Snape for attempting to save him (and failing - not his fault) in light of Snape's behavior toward Harry throughout the school year. I feel that only a person with no self worth at all would even consider thanking Snape in that circumstance.

You said many pages ago that Snape owed James a thank you for saving his life. How is it any different? Hermoine's interruption doesn't change the fact that Snape likely kept Harry from plummeting to his death. He might not have been able to complete what he had been trying to do, which I'm guessing was completely remove the curse that had been placed (Or was being placed?) on Harry's broom, but without his actions we don't know that Harry wouldn't have taken a header into the ground at 200mph.


Just my opinion, but I'd imagine he didn't take credit for Levicorpus for the same reason the Twins or Marauders would not take credit for their jinxes and pranks. It would have likely gotten them in trouble. I think the reason he didn't take credit for Sectumsempra prior to HBP is pretty straightforward.

I agree with the Sectumsempra, but he could have easily taken credit for Levicorpus. A rather harmless little spell in the grand scheme of things and no worse than causing someone's eyebrows to grow until they obscure the vision...

The only time I really recall the twins not taking credit for something was when Umbridge was around and it's not like you can fault them for that.

But Snape wasn't the focus for those lessons was he? Voldemort was. Sure, he caught Snape off guard with the shield charm (And it was pretty well done actually), but that still wasn't the point of the Occ classes. They wanted him to be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind. Not have to defend himself once Voldemort got in. Once he got in and had a few seconds to rummage around, he'd likely know everything he needed. We already knew Harry could defend himself physically from Voldemort... he'd already done it on a number of occasions. But he couldn't defend himself mentally against Voldemort.

I respect your view, but these are two different things. When escaping Hogwarts in HBP, Snape told Harry he had to keep his mind closed because he knew what spell Harry was going to use before he said it when Harry was attacking. So use of a silent spell is no help against a legilimens unless you are simultaneously practicing occlucmency, which the children were not asked to do. They were just supposed to say the spell in their minds rather than aloud. So this first practice session was not designed to help Harry with respect to blocking his thoughts.

You said many pages ago that Snape owed James a thank you for saving his life. How is it any different? Hermoine's interruption doesn't change the fact that Snape likely kept Harry from plummeting to his death. He might not have been able to complete what he had been trying to do, which I'm guessing was completely remove the curse that had been placed (Or was being placed?) on Harry's broom, but without his actions we don't know that Harry wouldn't have taken a header into the ground at 200mph.

I still agree with myself. Snape owed James a thank you for certain, but there is no way on earth Snape was gonna give it to him. Under the circumstances I feel it would be rather far fetched to imagine Snape doing so because they were enemies. He'd hex James before thanking him. However, Snape should have felt grateful and not gone about making up motivations for his saviour and consigning the deed to rubbish. That was wrongful. I feel the exact same way with respect to Harry thanking Snape - no way on earth he would do so. I am not sure if there is canon as to whether or not Harry felt grateful - but he didn't go around conjuring up negative motivations and consigning them to Snape.

I agree with the Sectumsempra, but he could have easily taken credit for Levicorpus. A rather harmless little spell in the grand scheme of things and no worse than causing someone's eyebrows to grow until they obscure the vision...

The only time I really recall the twins not taking credit for something was when Umbridge was around and it's not like you can fault them for that.

Oh you mean with their mates. I thought you meant somehow breaking out the news to the entire school. :lol:. Well since Snape had to have introduced the spell somehow, it was likely to his mates (or whoever) and so he did take credit for it in that way - like the twins did. It is just that none of them could broadcast it or they would likely get in trouble.

He might not have been able to complete what he had been trying to do, which I'm guessing was completely remove the curse that had been placed (Or was being placed?) on Harry's broom, but without his actions we don't know that Harry wouldn't have taken a header into the ground at 200mph.

Quite. :) Indeed, Quirrell states that in fact Harry would have:

"Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you."

In other words, if Snape had not been doing his thing, Hermione would have been too late.

And we're closing early because of new awesome thread of awesomeness. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=119389)