Neville, Voldemort, and a LOT of gum

Maybe it was a misprint in the US OotP. Cuz I know it has been Drooble's Best Bloeing on plenty of other occasions. But maybe she did plant it there for those of us who are ripping these books apart and would have picked up on something like it. I dunno.

I think Voldie's already "Stuck on himself." hehehe. He's got the whole megalomaniac thing going on. :rolleyes:

What if someone is giving Alice poisoned gum to impede her recovery?

ahhh...Who knew one phrase like "she must have given [him] enough of them to paper [his] bedroom" could give us seven pages of theories...

Nice idea caroline40, about the fact that they could actually be poisoned...I dont think anybody has thought of that before.
So, there are several things to think about:

- Where did Alice get the gum from
- Why did Alice give the gum wrappers to Neville
- Why did Neville keep them
- Why has she given him so much gum
- Why does the grandmother seem awkward about it


And I cant think of an original answer to any of them. the "why did Alice give Neville the gum wrappers" could just be that she wanted to show her love and recognition of him, and wasnt able to show it any other way.
But the other questions are suspicious...

hmmm... we hadn't given that any thought before have we? But Alice seems to be getting better. Or at least I think she is. Not up to scratch with Lockhart but... or Bode; he was starting to talk - in other languages. But, she was out of bed, she seemed to know what she wanted to do - probably why too but we haven't figured that out yet and probably won't be able to until Rowling tells us, and she seemed to recognize Neville at least by sight. That's far better than I ever imagined the Longbottoms to be. She could even hum! Though I don't think it mentioned whether it was with a real tune or not. hehe, maybe she was singing "Weasley Is Our King" like everyone else in the book - how many times did that pop up? You know, it must be a really catchy tune - wonder what it is? Right sorry, educational decree something or other - Professors are not allowed to discuss anything with their students beyond the subjects they are paid to teach which does not include a rude and obnoxious songs dreamt up by a bouncing ferret.

This is so confusing.
The first mention of Drooble's Best Blowing Gum seems to be in SS/PS when Harry and Ron are on the train the lady with the candy cart comes. Harry expects to find Mars Bars, but instead finds among other things, Droobles Best Blowing Gum. Right there with the chocolate frogs with the wizard cards in them. Any connection between the wrappers and wizard cards?
1:09 am. Good thing I took that :yawn: nap, earlier.

Oh, furryfreakferret, you've done such a good job reading that scene closely! Alice's humming is pretty significant, isn't it? It seems to tie her in to Dumbledore, because JKR said in more than one interview, "Since Albus Dumbledore is very fond of music, I always imagined him sort of humming to himself a lot." (here's a link to one of those interviews: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html , courtesy Quick Quote Quill, but there are at least 3 or 4 others where she says the same thing). Of course, daft people also hum to themselves, so maybe it doesn't mean anything.

But Bode speaking in other languages. Whoa, that's cool, and I had completely failed to pick up on that. I guess we'll never know what languages or what he said, but does anybody have any theories on what would have caused him to be speaking in other languages?

I dont think Bode speaking in different languages was particually important to the plot, but Alices humming could be I suppose.

It is true that Alice is improving. In the 4th book I think Dumbledore said that Nevilles parents didnt recognise him; but I think Alice seemed to in the 5th book, so they seem to be improving. Humming also shows an improvement as well.

Arghh I hate Uk/US version differences. They make discussion so hard! www.hp-lexicon.org has a list of differences for books 1-4 if you wanna not be confused.

Someone trying to poison Alice? Yikes, hadn't thought of that! I always thought the hospital allowed her to have gum, that they brought it to her after her meals or something. But then someone evil would have to be working at the hospital. We don't know much about any of the characters who work at St. Mungo's, but I don't think there was any indication of someone being untrustworthy. Lucius' donation bothers me, but I don't think he could poison gum just be giving money. But if the Longbottoms start rapidly improving now that Lucius is in prison, then the case may be stronger.

I don't think Alice could be faking it because I just don't think she'd do that to her son. Why wouldn't she could just confide in Neville that she really wasn't insane when they were alone together, nobody would know. On second thought, maybe that did happen. Maybe she is faking and Neville does know but he doesn't tell because it's too important! I mean, we only see the scene from harry's perspective and neville is not one to share everything.

Evilrabbit,

Wow! That's an interesting idea. You think Alice might be improving and Neville might know? Is she writing stuff in invisible ink on the wrappers?

That could be.... I mean, maybe she has been sending messages through the wrappers in some form - invisible ink, that thing with unless you use say the passphrase (e.g. mischief managed!), or maybe.... It looks like something else until a certain person, in this case Neville, wants to read it!!! Ooh, I love forums! Would've never thought of that on my own. :clap:

So... Dumbeldore's fond of music? He does seem to hum to himself and stare away from people when he doesn't want to hear. ("I have become temporarily deaf and have no idea what you have just said." :lol: ) Don't know if there's something there, but there could be. But you'd think she'd be a bit more open with it in the books if we were supposed to make conections. Okay, we've done all the Harry-is-related-to-Dumbledore ideas so how about Neville is related to Dumbledore? Just being random.

You know, Alice being poisoned through the gum may actually be a lightbulb.... They could do it and no one (except us) would expect anything because gum is one of the harmless, fun, childhood memory type things. I suppose what we really have to do is wait and see what's going on now the Lucius is in jail, far away on an island, in a cold sea, reliving his worst memories. Oh, sorry started ticking off happy thoughts. ;) I've got the feeling there'll be lots of changes in the wizarding world now, though. He lost all his connections I suppose so can't force them to do anything really. Actually, he could; the Imperious Curse seems his specialty, and he's still an evil little git who'd go so far as to threaten to curse people's families to get things done, or kill them more like. But, that's not the point. Moving on....

Perhaps, like Lucius, Mr. Drooble is a donor to St. Mungo's?

OK, here's another idea. We know that Dumbledore is always connected with candy and sweets. What if he is sending gum to the Longbottoms and it contains a strengthening potion of some kind, made by Snape of course. Dumbledore and Snape can't take it to the Longbottoms themselves because Malfoy would find out. Maybe that is why Alice is getting better? This is probably "out there" but it just "popped" into my thoughts. :p

Another thing about a bubble is that it refects light. Maybe she is trying to tell Neville something about reflections or mirrors or the spectrum of light. I've wondered before if "smoke and mirrors" didn't have something to do with Harry's protection and the first destruction of Voldemort. One thing every baby usually has in their crib is a mirror. If Harry was protected by some sort of magical mirror, a common theme in these books, then that would explain why Voldemort's curse backfired on him. It was reflected back onto him. Arghhh - I can almost picture how this could work, but I can't quite get it. I think the clue is the way Dumbledore protected the philosopher's stone in PS/SS - with a mirror.

I keep thinking, too, that maybe the song Alice is humming is important. Maybe it is a jingle with a clue. Maybe we will hear it in the next book and have an ah-ha moment? :agree:

One more thought: When I was young, we used to save up juicy fruit and fruit stripe wrappers and fold them together to make necklaces. This is really stretching, but what if the wrappers have some properties we don't know about. Some sort of strength? I remember Ron saying it wasn't the chocolate frog that's important, but the cards are what you want. We used to chew certain brands of gum just to get the wrappers. I'm the same generation as Rowling, so maybe that is where she's going with this?

Nice post, silver ink pot, and it has really inspired me, though not in a "Drooble's Blowing Gum" sort of a way, so this is going to be off topic but in line with the conversation:

EYES.
1. Crouch-as-Moody tells the class that the key to understanding how Harry is overcoming the Imperius Curse is in the eyes, "Watch his eyes, its all in the eyes."
2. Harry has Lily's eyes.
3. "Eyes are the mirror of the soul" The reflective property of the eyes has been discussed from the time of the Greeks, and elsewhere. It is where the lover sees himself reflected, in the eyes of the beloved. Instead of a crib mirror, could we hypothesize that the "rebounding" of Voldemort's Avada Kedavra curse may have something to do with Harry's (which are also Lily's) eyes, and their reflective properties?

Nothing to do with gum, though. Sorry!

Good post, Phoenixsong, and I think you and I are on the same track about the reflections. I have thought about Harry's eyes somehow turning back the curse, as well, and I think it has to be related to his wearing glasses somehow. :huh:

But back to the gum, I think I just found something but I don't know what it means. In fact, it is kind of scary.

EvilRabbit had a post about the bubbles being "bluebell" bubbles.

Here's the quote from PoA pg 147 UK version
"Droobles Best Blowing Gum (which filled a room with bluebell-coloured bubbles that refused to pop for days)" Hmmm, Hermione's Incendio flames are also described as "bluebell" And it reminds me of the "shining crystal bubbles clustered in the middle of the ceiling" in Arthur Weasley's ward, as well as the bubble bath bubbles in the prefects bathroom in GoF and the bubble-head charm. What could this mean? I have absolutely no idea. Little help?

The bluebell fire was the fire that Hermione conjured in the little jar to keep them warm in the courtyard. I couldn't find the line about the bluebell bubbles in my American edition, but I'll keep looking.

Anyway, we were also talking about how Rowling might be steering us wrong, using different words in different places so we wouldn't know which was a clue and which wasn't, like the different names of the bubblegum. Ok, now I started looking up things about bluebells. I just happened to also be looking up things about Remus Lupin.

Well, in plants, there is a genus called "Lupinus." It has nothing to do with wolves, it is a kind of blue flower known as a "bluebonnet ." And get this - it is a terrible poison. :wow: It can poison any kind of animal. I found websites referring to poisonings of goats, cats, dogs, cows, even humans, caused by bluebonnets.

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/plantsthatpoison.htm

BLUEBONNETS, (Lupines), Lupinus, all parts (poisonous)

http://michaelsilveus.com/Herbs/LupinusPerennis.htm

The mature seeds of Lupine contain a poison and can be fatal is eaten.
Lupine is a very large genus so be sure of the species before using any part of a plant medicinally

I realize that bluebonnets and bluebells are totally different flowers, but the connection between "lupinus" and "bluebonnet" is not a coincidence, I believe. Is Rowling just playing games with us, or is Mrs. Longbottom trying to warn Neville about a poisoning or about danger to Lupin? Is Lupin a danger to Neville? I'd hate to think that, but it is really strange. Is Lupin connected to Droobles? Is Voldemort going to poison people using candy? My mind is floating away now, sorry.

More references that refer to English "bluebells" - not "lupinus" this time. Bluebells definitely seem to be associated with a "gummy" substance, and they are also associated with some negative folklore. I have a bad feeling about the gum, Neville, his parents, etc. Rowling is definitely leading somewhere with these bluebell references. Notice the references to the "cries of woe" and "dead man's bells." :upset:


http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/bluebe60.html

Linnaeus first called it Hyacinthus, tradition associating the flower with the Hyacinth of the Ancients, the flower of grief and mourning.

Hyacinthus was a charming youth whom both Apollo and Zephyrus loved, but Hyacinthus preferred the Sun-God to the God of the West Wind, who sought to be revenged, and one day when Apollo was playing quoits with the youth, a quoit (blown by Zephyrus out of its proper course) killed Hyacinthus. Apollo, stricken with grief, raised from his blood a purple flower, on which the letters Ai, Ai were traced, so that his cry of woe might for evermore have existence upon earth. As our native variety of Hyacinth had no trace of these mystic letters our older botanists called it Hyacinthus nonscriptus, or 'not written on.' (NOTE: I have no idea what "quoits" are).

A later generic name, Agraphis, is of similar meaning, being a compound of two Greek words, meaning 'not to mark.' (this seems significant, don't you think?)

Tennyson speaks of Bluebell juice being used to cure snake-bite

The bulbs are poisonous in the fresh state. The viscid juice so abundantly contained in them and existing in every part of the plant has been used as a substitute for starch, and in the days when stiff ruffs were worn was much in request.

From its gummy character, it was also employed as bookbinders' gum. :whistle:

Gerard informs us that it was also used for setting feathers upon arrows.

http://www.faeries.org/site/lore/faeflower.html

Flowers and Plants often associated with Faeries.

Bluebell (Constancy and Kindness) Bluebells are also known as wood hyacinths and as Cuckoo's Boots. Crowtoes and Endymion (after the woodland lover of Diana, the goddess of hunting).

The Scottish name for the plant is Deadmen's Bells, for to hear the ring of a bluebell is to hear one's death knell. :wow:

Fairies are summoned to their midnight revels by the ringing of these tiny flowers, which are reputed to be the most potent of all fairy flora. Legend has it that children who venture into bluebell glades will be held captive, while adults will be pixie-led, until met by another mortal and guided out.

Wow, you two. Those were ALL really excellent. I think I'm feeling small. *shrinks*

The whole thing with relfections and mirrors and eyes and all that stuff you mentioned above: I never thought about that but it's a great idea. It would make sense for a baby Harry to have had a mirror in his crib - whether magical or not, who knows? (grrr, I can't type today) And then Harry saw his parents in the Mirror of Erised and Sirius and James used to used that magic mirror to talk to each other while they were in seperate detentions (did that remind anyone else of Beauty and the Beast?). Maybe the mirrors are a conection to his parents? And Voldemort, supposing that's what destroyed him. Harry saw Voldemort's face in a mirror in that dream, vision, whatever - the one with Rookwood. Anything there? But then, how come nobody else survived before? Mirrors are commonplace - everybody's got several in their houses - and using them to deflect that kind of thing seems to happen a lot in movies; bit cliche. Maybe it's his eyes we should be watching, then. hmmmm.... Rowling said the fact that Harry has Lily's eyes would be important? And it would explain why he wears glasses - if that doesn't make you half blind nothing will. You know, I think you're on to something with these reflections; I'll have to look for more instances where somethings being reflected. Ooh! the mirror Hermione and Penelope were using when they saw the basilisk. Actually all those - the water from the girls' bathroom... um... the mirror, Justin saw it through Nick, Colin through his camera (I'm surprised they LET Dennis come to school), any more; I feel like I'm missing someone? *pulling myself back on topic* If it's the shiny part of the bubble gum wrapper Alice is handing Neville, which I sort of doubt, he could see himself in that and it'd be another reflection.

As far as Alice warning Neville about Lupin, I kind of doubt it. Lupin seems like the kind of guy anyone can trust. But maybe that's the problem. Good quality in a spy. But Lupin? Maybe it's that guy in the ward with Mr. Weasley who was bitten by a werewolf? Yeah, I'm going to go with that to avoid Lupin being evil. Besides, the Longbottoms knew Lupin from the OOotP; they know he's cool. The problem is if it is a warning about someone it's almost certainly someone they knew well before they were attacked and Lupin fits in there. :( But I LIKE Lupin!

Drooble being a donor to Mungo's WOULD explain where she's getting all this gum from, wouldn't it? It's possible, I'd say even probable. He's gotta be pretty rich with all these gum refrences all over the books. But is this a good thing or a bad?

Or inky's idea of DD and Snape putting a Strengthening Solution in some gum and sending it is interesting too. Would Snape do that? I suppose he wouldn't disobey DD. But then again he stopped giving Harry Occulmency lessons so maybe he would. I think they have mentioned the Strengthening Solution before, though I'm not sure where - just rings a bell. It could be a foreshadow.

Voldemort using candy to posion the world - hehe - it's a very clever plan cuz no one would suspect poisoned candy. But I don't think we've got any evidence of candy EVER being a bad thing. It's always used for good - fighting Dementors, being eaten, Dumbledore's password.... Except for Peeves sticking the gum in the keyhole but that's Peeves and what do you expect?

I think they have mentioned the Strengthening Solution before, though I'm not sure where - just rings a bell. It could be a foreshadow.

FreakyFurry: The strengthening solution is mentioned when Umbridge finally comes to Snape's class to observe. She tells him she doesn't think it is appropriate to teach that potion to the students, and Snape turns around and stares at her. :wow: It's in the Chapter "Educational Decree Number 24", page 363 of the US edition.

Why don't you start a thread on the mirrors? You could just copy your post above, maybe adding a little bit about this thread. I think alot of people are interested in this topic. Maybe we could start a list of all the mirror and glasses references in the books. :agree:

grrr... I just deleted a long message I was writing to you by accident. Your above post really got me thinking. (Thanks for looking all that up! It's really excellent!) Okay, really bad feeling about the gum now. All these connections with death and misery and woe! I don't reckon it's helping them in any way now. Total change of tactics. The whole thing with deadman's bells: you don't think they'll die do you? *whimper* Poor Nev'd be crushed! (which would open up suicide. I have this feeling she'll get around to it.) Or the setting feathers to arrows. Gee, I'm hating these thoughts! Neville turned into a canary in GoF who molted to reveal Neville again. He's got feathers and he's got glue to stick them on with. You know that weapon Sirius was talking about? I've got this feeling it wasn't the prophecy but something else entirely. It just doesn't seem like much a weapon - I think it was more just gathering ALL the facts. Maybe Neville's the weapon, if his feathers are going to be stuck onto arrows? Oh, I hope not! But it is possible. Or in the Who'll Die thread for book 5, we had Nev pretty high up on the list. I think he was fourth or something like that again because of the canaries. Miners used to use them to detect bad air quality; if the birds died they knew they had to get out. (There were other reasons but I can't remember what.) Maybe the arrow's glue is meant to be another foreshadow to his death. :upset: Okay, here's an idea. Maybe Neville finds out about Malfoy hindering his parents progress and goes after him. (He'll be out of Azkaban before the summer's out, I bet.) And Malfoy... *sob* Especially if he's using the gum to do it, which could be possible and evil and clever wnough to be his work. Evil :censored: But not Neville, please not Neville! I'll KILL Malfoy if he does and I won't even stop to think how Draco'll react to it. Neville will NOT die in this series without me seeking revenge. Or the prophecy could have been about Neville too. And I'm not entirely convinced it isn't. There was more reason for bringing him along on that little adventure than to have him meet Bellatwit Letwisted and show how he's gotten far braver while he's been being distant with Harry. He hasn't had a major part since book 1. That could be how he dies too. At that hands of Voldemort. Or, better yet because if I'm right - if Neville dies the world ends, Neville's the arrow that peirces Voldie and kills him. There I found an idea that doesn't worry me. :)

Ooh! and with the mirror and reflection thing I was just looking down the list of discussion in this forum. One of them is about CoS being the "key" to the series. I know it's out there but there were all those refrences to reflections in there. I'll start a thread for the mirrors thing, unless you'd rather. But not tonight. Feeling lazy. I think I'll go read fanfics. Toodles!

Furry: Tomorrow is soon enough on the mirrors. In fact it is already tomorrow, so I need some sleep!

I'm not sure if Neville will die. I really don't think so and I hope not because I really love his character. I think he will surprise everyone (hopefully, Snape, most of all, hehe) when he gets his own new wand. I loved the way Neville kept telling Harry, "Don't gib it to dem," when they were fighting the death eaters. That is almost my favorite part of the book.

This secret weapon thing could be anything. Or maybe the gum is the weapon. But Voldemort certainly doesn't want to be destroyed this time, so he is trying to stack the deck in his own favor, and he will do anything he can.

I was on another website and it mentioned that "Drooble" sounds like "Trouble". It really does. I think this is a major and ominous clue.

silver ink pot: It is already tomorrow? Is that even possible? I need to think about this...jk! :p
Anyways, excellent findings about bluebells. Dead man's bells is really scary. Death omen for Neville? Or maybe, and I know this is a stretch, for Hermione, because her flames are that colour. I was rereading GoF the other day, and Arthur Weasley uses Incendio to shoot flames into the Dursleys fireplace. It doesn't say what colour the flames were, and I think JK would have mentioned if they were blue. (because Uncle Vernon would freak out) So maybe flame colour is a reflection of self, like a patronus and an animagus. And Mr. Weasley's flame would be normal fire colour, because Weasley hair is described as "flaming red" I think I'm definitely overanalysing things here, but who knows?

Furry, you mentioned one of my theories! Yay! I am so happy! One of my theories got mentioned in another thread! Wahoo! Ok, anyways, I really don't think the "canary in the mineshaft" really applies anymore because it means "an warning of things to come" and the deaths have already started. I think if Neville were to die as a "canary in the mineshaft", it would have happened already as to foreshadow the deaths to come. But now that Sirius is gone, I dunno if that works anymore. But still, Neville may die as JK is really building him up. And that spell that landed right where Neville's hand had been at the DoM, compared with the knife that landed right where the late great Snuffles' hand had been, really worries me. I hope he doesn't die as I luv the little guy!(twelve times more than Malfoy:p)

The Strengthening Solution is definitely an idea! But if Umbridge doesn't want it taught to students... Is it possible she's doesn't want the Longbottoms to recover? No, that doesn't make sense, if Alice is already getting the solution, how does stopping some schoolchildren from knowing about it help her? Ok scratch that. Maybe Umbridge doesn't want anyone to know the Longbottoms are recovering? Or maybe she doesn't want them to know WHY they're recovering. Am I making any sense? I didn't think so.

Maybe the gummy consistency means that the gum wrappers keep Neville hanging on (or stuck to) the memories he has of his parents and the love he receives from them. Just a thought that came into my head.

The mirror thing is interesting. Don't forget the talking mirrors at the Leaky Cauldron (Harry: I am not going to be murdered. Mirror: That's the spirit, dear!) and the cracked mirror in moaning myrtle's bathroom. this could be very important, though I can't think how right now.

Yep, rabbie - you are overanylizing. That's what she do - start the Overanylizers Club or O.C. :lol: That was random. Well, inky's thoughts first:

This weapon thing is really starting to bother me, in case you couldn't tell. But do you think Rowling would do that - warn us about something in one book but never really have the puzzle solved? Oh wait, yeah she would, she's been dangling that thing with Harry's eyes over our heads for ages. But that was in an interview, wasn't it? Saying something like that in a book and then never telling us who has what seems a little cruel. Maybe it was the prophecy? But yeah, that part with Neville sticking up to Bella was really awesome! Go Neville, die Bellatrix!

I really, REALLY hope Neville doesn't get bumped. :scared: I don't think he will either it's just a worry. I think he needs to stay, save the world, become popular, marry whoever he wants, and make up with Snape. Poor Snapy has many issues that'll never be resolved. Could that be a foreshadow? Everyone, save Harry, who Snape holds a MAJOR grudge against is dead. Oh wait, nah, Nev's not a grudge, more of a peeve. Could foreshadow Harry though. Thanks for pointing out that the canary thing probably doesn't work anymore, rabbie. I'll breathe easier. ;) But was there a spell that nearly hit Nev? I'll have to go read that again. But yeah, it does sound kinda like the bread knife in headquarter's kitchen, doesn't it. And to think, he and Harry laughed after that....

Drooble sounds like trouble to me now. I never noticed that before. Guess we never had reason too. So, I think we can forget any ideas that it's helping them. As far as Umbridge not wanting them to get better, it doesn't matter any more cuz I think she'll end up in the same ward and then I'll sneak in the middle of the night and making clip-clopping sounds with my tounge. Or bring my non-existent pony up the lift with me. :D

Anyway, off to go start a mirror thread I think. What shall I call it? "The Importance of Mirrors?"

"The Importance of Mirrors" sounds good. I still say Neville is NOT the one the prophecy refers to. The prophecy says that Voldy will mark the one with the power to destroy him as his equal, and he marked Harry by giving him the scar. neville may have something to do with Voldy's defeat, but he won't be the one who kills him. I really don't think the prophecy can be untrue because it's this huge relevation we've all been waiting for, it can't be wrong. I think the prophecy is the weapon, not Neville, because Voldy thought it would tell him how to kill Harry, but he was wrong. Voldy was looking for the prophecy for the entire year, how could it not be the weapon?

Drooble does sound sort of like "trouble" but then again it also sounds like "bubble" and it's bubble gum, so there may be nothing there.

Oh, I never noticed that Snape's grudges are dying. But maybe it's just that the marauders are dying, because I can't think of anyone who's died that Snape has a grudge against who isn't a marauder.

I agree with Go Neville, Die Bellatrix! Haha, it sounds like a slogan for a car or something.

I wonder if a pony would fit into the lift? Oh, well, I'm sure a nonexistant one would. Or better yet, bring a tape recorder with the sound of horse clopping on it and put it on Umbridge's bedside table on "loop" mode. :p

Oh well, I wasn't saying the weapon was Neville nessicarily, just that it wasn't the prophecy. But now that you explain as finding out how to kill Harry, I guess I can see it. But it didn't so it isn't really. Besides, seems he already had a plan: posess him and have Dumbledore kill him for him.

I think Drooble sounds more like trouble than it does bubble but that might just be me.

Well, let's see Snape's grudges: Harry because his father, who was a bullying toerag who tormented Snape, died without him being able to pay off his debt and the fact that he owed him at all. His father. Sirius, also a tormentor and never believed Snape really did switch sides, died before he actually forgave him. Possibly Neville because every time he looks at him with fear in his eyes, it reminds him of the look his victims gave him before they were murdered and who knows what his parents did to Snape so that he might hate them too. Possibly his parents because he seems the type to hold grudges and I have the feeling he was abused. :( They're probably dead too, maybe even at Snape's hands. The whole wizarding world because they accused him of being a Death Eater after he transfered. I guess Dumbledore never told him whose name popped up when Karkaroff was naming, huh? Snivellus really needs to learn to forgive and forget. He might be a bit nicer.

A small pony would fit in a lift. Teddy Roosevelt's kids once brought their paint, Algonquin, in a government lift. But your idea of a casseste in loop mode is MUCH better. Muhahahaha!!!

I might be stuck on page 7, but ......

I'm interested the fact that the name on the wrapper Alice gives Neville is different (at least in Am editions). Is this a hint that the wrappers are fakes? They are meant to look like Droobles, but are they really counterfeits someone printed in the basement?

And the humming. JKR gave the headmaster the name Dumbledore because he's very musical and she imagines him humming like a bee to himself.

Is Dumbledore visiting Alice in the form of a bee? Could she be trying to tell Neville something by humming? If she can't speak humming may be how she's trying to tell someone something about Dumbledore. Is Dumbledore bringing the gum? Does he know or has he encouraged Alice to give Neville the wrappers?

I still like the invisible ink idea. Was it Hermione's Mum who thought of it??

Then the clusters of bubbles on the ceiling. Are they connected to Dumbledore, too?

Whizbang! Great idea about the wrappers being fake wrappers! I think Neville may know what Dumbledore is up to! :agree:

The serious glitch is that the word "best" seems to be included in the British editions. ?!!? :shrug:

How cute is Rudolph? :love:

I have an idea...what if the reason that JKR mentions scurvy-grass, loveage, sneezewort and their usage in confusing and befuddlement draughts has nothing to do with Harry, but with the Longbottoms instead? What if their gum has been tampered with, say soaked in a concentrated befuddlement draught, or perhaps coated in a powdered form? It would explain their lack of healing progress, and might also explain Neville's forgetfullness, since he would be in contact with the residue on the wrappers.

I haven'y read through all the posts here, but doyou guys really, truly, genuinely, believe that the gum wrappers - GUM WRAPPERS! - have any deeper meaning. They were put in to get sympathy for Neville and a tiny bit of antipathy for his grandmother. But spell out the way to defeat LV?? Come on - obviously DD already knows that or has a good guess, just only Harry can actually do it. Neville's mother is mad, its as simple as that. There's nothing more.

Harry notes that Mrs Longbottom seems unable to speak but she probably wants Neville to know that she loves him and recognises him and giving him things is the only way she can do that. Being as shes in St Mungos she probably doesnt have much choice on what she gives him so she gives him the only thing shes got. Neville seems to understand the message which is why he keeps it even though his grandmother tells him to throw it out. And whats the story with Nevilles grandad? Neville says he saw him die but it doesnt say how he died. I would love to see his parents recover and it doesnt say that its impossible, plus the healers are very gifted but I dont know if its going to happen. Or Maybe Neville kills Bellatrix and the curse on them is lifted or something. Nevilles awesome and he deserves to have his parents back I seriously almost cried when Bellatrix tells him that shes met his parents and he yells I DOE YOU HAB!!

Whizbang! Glad you like Rudolph - Thanks! ;)

I think that creative people are able to use anything and everything in order to solve problems. Hermione gets most of her ideas from books, while Fred and George like a hands-on approach, hem-hem, as they develop new items. In the end, whatever gets the job done.

I don't know how many of you have seen the World War II movie, The Great Escape. In that movie, the inmates of a Nazi prison camp, English and American soldiers, have to use all their ingenuity to break out. They forge papers, carry dirt inside the legs of their pants, make tools, dig tunnels. In the end, many of them die in the fight, but they try everything! :agree:

I think the way Rowling is setting up the story, Harry and the Gang will need to use every spell and trick they know, serious or playful!

I really like in Order of the Phoenix that they saved part of the Twins' swamp. Their exciting "exit" from Hogwarts is one of my favorite parts!

We have to think like Dumbledore in order to solve the gum wrapper mystery - so "Fizzing Whizbee" to everyone! :clap:

Perhaps it has something to do with the properties of the gum or bubbles, I am re-reading Azkaban at the moment and it mentions the bubbles are blue and take ages to burst? Thoughts?

Yes, we do really, truly, geuninely believe something is up with the gum wrappers, hesdeaddealwithit. *glares* We're not crazy if that's what you're thinking.

Moving on.... whizbang, that was a really awesome idea with the gum being fake. I hadn't even thought of that. But if no one knows the secret ingredient used in gum-making (didn't it say that somewhere or am I crossing refrences?), then I don't see how they could. They'd have to make it taste really REALLY good. And the idea Iggie had with the confusing draughts is good too. They repeated thise few lines at least once so there might have been something beyond the surface and Harry's reinterpretations.

Ooh, Hestia, good. I've been wondering whether anyone else wondered about Neville's granddad. It did seem a little odd that Rowling should give us that little bit of information. Since everybody else who was mentioned as being able to see them (Harry and Luna) witnessed death not of old age, I've been wondering whether watching someone leave the world for the next simply because their time is up would allow you to see thestrals? :huh:

Um, I think we were at some point in this thread we were discussing the properties of bubbles and gum, but it was a while back. Bubbles are reflective, pretty, fun to blow and pop, filled with hot air, float, lightweight.... Gum, is hard and stiff when you first get it, then, as you chew it, it gets mushier, it's chewy, eatible, loved by children everywhere, illegal in school, sticky, gross when left under tables....

Dumbledore could have something to do with it I suppose.... He seems to know everything else. But Neville keeps pretty quiet about the whole thing and everyone follows his lead. And he's not particularly close to Nev, as far as we know. idk.

jenny: Go back a few pages on this thread and there is a long discussion of "bluebell" bubbles and what they might mean. Trust me. It is in-depth and probably more than you really want to know! :agree: :lol:

I have an idea...what if the reason that JKR mentions scurvy-grass, loveage, sneezewort and their usage in confusing and befuddlement draughts has nothing to do with Harry, but with the Longbottoms instead? What if their gum has been tampered with, say soaked in a concentrated befuddlement draught, or perhaps coated in a powdered form? It would explain their lack of healing progress, and might also explain Neville's forgetfullness, since he would be in contact with the residue on the wrappers.


Ah ha! Kind of like when he made them skip to the end of the book to study werewolves? It's a hint! If only someone would pick it up. Hermione is usually the one to pick up hints and find things out. Hmmmm...

We have to think like Dumbledore in order to solve the gum wrapper mystery - so

Good point - well taken. Think like Dumbledore. Over protective, keenly perceptive.

Imagine Nevilles' bedroom at home with the wrappers plastered over the walls, then Trevor gets a little too close to the wonderful mimbulus mimbletonia - stinksap squirts around the room drenching the wrappers, removing the advertising and revealing a message from his mother.
We have been told that the plant is pretty rare, so the chances of any deatheaters being able to get their hands on one near the wrappers are pretty slim.

I don't think this gum thing was a sympathy vote for Neville. She could have just handed him something imaginary, and I think those of us who were moved by the scene would still have been touched. There's something to this gum thing, and the mirrors too. Are those ideas related? I don't know. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we will know until book 6 or 7!!!

Imagine Nevilles' bedroom at home with the wrappers plastered over the walls, then Trevor gets a little too close to the wonderful mimbulus mimbletonia - stinksap squirts around the room drenching the wrappers, removing the advertising and revealing a message from his mother.
We have been told that the plant is pretty rare, so the chances of any deatheaters being able to get their hands on one near the wrappers are pretty slim.


Or, to go along with what I posted earlier, what if stinksap is used to counteract befuddlement draughts, thus bringing about the improvement we see in Neville this year.

Just another wacky idea...

I'm completely lost on the Drooble's. I was trying to think like Dumbledore, but maybe we need to think like Fred and George instead.
Anti befuddlement is very good.

The bluebell flower which was being discussed earlier incidently is a member of the Lily family....coincidence? Other member of the Lily family include the Narcissus(Narcissa Malfoy) which is usually poisonous or used in drugs, the asphodel which snape mentions in book one as being an ingredient in the Draught of Living Death, the hellbore and the tuberose which Im pretty sure iarementioned somewhere as ingriedents or something but I dont remember.

I like iggie's idea about the confusing and befuddlement potions being used on the Longbottoms. I keep returning to Neville's boggart, and the fact that what he sees is Snape, reaching inside his robes. Could it be that Neville, back as an infant/toddler, witnessed Snape reaching into his robes for either his wand or for a vial of potion that he administered to either Neville or his parents? And Snape could have done so on either Voldemort's or Dumbledore's orders, I suppose.

oooo. Very good!

Stinksap being used as a message revealer! Ooh me likey. Me likey very much. It would explain the whole point of the strange beyond strange plant. Unless it's supposed to BE Neville. It grew bigger over the year and he grew braver? idk, wacky theory throwing.

Hestia, GREAT catch on all those plants being in the lily family. Maybe it's got something to do with all wizarding families being related. The Potters are related to the Malfoys who are realted to the Droobles or something like that. Good post though!

Pheonix, was boggart-Snape reaching into his robes? That could be REALLY signifigant. Betcha it does have something to do with Neville's past. We figured it was that Snape had come to try and stop the Lestranges and Neville first saw him there and connected him with the torture but maybe he had brought something to try to counter the attack? Maybe he really isn't so evil afterall. Yay, I love happy endings, don't you? And then he could be sending the gum too, supposing its a Strengthening Solution, in further attempts to restore their sanity. How many peices of bubble gum to cure insanity?

Yeah, Boggart-Snape was definitely reaching into his robes. Of course, it could be argued that this is simply what Neville fears Snape doing today, since Snape has been known to threaten students with administering poison (and did give Trevor that Shrinking Solution), but I tend to think that our deepest fears usually have something to do with things buried in our past, hence my theory that Boggart-Snape comes from the depths of Neville's memory.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I'm to tired to think much now, but these are all good theories, I *wish* I had something too ad... But I don't.

Hmmmm so many possiblities.!

Well, I remember reading somewhere (earlier on this thread or on the Mimbulus Mimbletonia thread) that it is interesting that the people who were still alert at the end of the attack at the Ministry were the same ones who were squirted with stinksap on the train!

We know that Snape gave Umbridge a fake Veritaserum, so maybe he gave the Longbottoms something to ease their pain. Or perhaps when he was small he was having nightmares, so Snape gave Grandma something to help Neville forget. I wish we knew how Neville's grandfather died.

Hestia: Your post about the Lily Family inspired me to search for a link between Lilies and the name Alice, which isn't a flower name. I did a Google search for "Flowers + Lily + Alice" and all the references there were about "Alice's Adventures Through the Looking Glass." I never would have thought of that connection! I haven't read the Alice books in years and years, but it makes sense that Rowling might refer to them since they are another great British fantasy. I'm going to start a thread about this but wanted to post this information here as well.

I need to sit down and read both books again to see if there are more clues. Both the Alice books are online at:

http://sunsite.tus.ac.jp/coll/alice/alice_toc.html

This is a quote in which "Alice" is talking to a "Lily" in Through the Looking Glass - notice we have the mirror reference again.

CHAPTER II The Garden of Live Flowers

"O Tiger-lily," said Alice, addressing herself to one that was waving gracefully about in the wind, "I wish you could talk!" "We can talk," said the Tiger-lily: "when there's anybody worth talking to." Alice was so astonished that she couldn't speak for a minute: it quite seemed to take her breath away. At length, as the Tiger-lily only went on waving about, she spoke again, in a timid voice-- almost in a whisper. "And can all the flowers talk?" "As well as you can," said the Tiger-lily. "And a great deal louder."

This is in a garden of flowers, where you might expect a "bee," as in Dumbledore. In fact, chapter three is about all the insects in the Looking Glass Garden and a knat hums in her ear and tells her about them!

In Alice in Wonderland, the girl and a large caterpillar have a talk about remembering things:

I'm afraid I am, sir," said Alice; "I can't remember things as I used--and I don't keep the same size for ten minutes together!" "Can't remember what things?" said the Caterpillar. "Well, I've tried to say 'How doth the little busy bee,' but it all came different!" Alice replied in a very melancholy voice.

And in the chapter, "The Mock Turtle's story," Alice talks to a Gryphon about a strange school that he and the Mock Turtle attend!

:wow: I must just be slow, or I've missed something, because I've never realized how many symbols and things the Potter Books and the Alice Books have in common! I know in different parts of Through the Looking Glass and Alice in Wonderland, she takes pills and eats candy and cakes. Anyone here more familiar with these books than illiterate me? I'm about to start a new thread about this, so start thinking!

Does anyone know if this has been discussed before? I did a search and saw nothing about it.

Nice research silver! Im glad I was able to inspire you so well.. That is pretty interesting.. especially the part about the Flowers being able to talk if theirs someone worth talking to. I think theres a lot more in the chapter that might be relevant but I havnt read that book in years. the whole thing is set on a giant chessboard and Alice as a pawn has to find her way to the other side kind of like in SS. There are definitely connections and I see more in Through the Looking Glass but then I REALLY dont remember Alice in Wonderland at all. Fred and George as Tweedledum and Tweedledee? haha thatd be a funny angle.... Thers also an inetp knight in both. Given that Alice is an English classic that JK definitely would have read I think you may have stumbled onto something here.

Wow, I have lost major track of this thread! Fantastic research up there about Alice in Wonderland. I knew that the mimbulus mimbletonia has something to do with future books but I never connected it with the gum. Did you come up with any anagrams furry?

Lol, okay majorly wierd theory here but what if the essense of this is in what his grandmother said about having enough to paper his wall. I mean what if he does paper his wall with them and it gives him protection from old voldie. Hehehe, well at least I have a good imagination...

Veritaserum

Ooh! There ARE a lot of similarites between Alice's Adventures Through the Looking Glass and Harry Potter, aren't there? That's so funny. We've got busy bees buzzing around informing people about stuff, inept knights, talking flowers.... I wonder what the common name of mimbulus mimbletonia is? It always struck me as weird that they always used the scientific name. And good catch with the Stinksap and the people uninjured in the battle! I don't think that's just a coincidence. See where we can get when we let our minds wander freely? And Through the Looking Glass like all the mirrors and reflections we were discussing earlier. :D But no, sorry Verri, no anigrams. :lol: We got just a little off track but it's still belongs in the thread. I think.

Anyway, I'm gonna be gone till Sunday night so I'll see you all then. I'm going white-water rafting. :clap:

I really dont think that Neville has the papers on his wall. If you reread the passage His grandmother seems to be under the impression that he throws the paper out and he sorta slips it into his pocket on the sly. Id think shed notice if they actually papered his wall. The comment was just to give the reader an idea of how many shes given him.

Excellent ideas about the Stinksap being like a revealer. I think the Mimbulus mimbletonia needs some purpose and that could be it. i was thouroughly disappointed when i got to the end of ootp and the mimbulus mimbletonia didn't have some hidden significance. Excellent connections with Alice in Wonderland. I haven't read that so I really don't know what you're talking about. Maybe I should.

I don't think the gum wrappers were fake because of the name, JK writes the British edition and then they make edits for the American edition. And alot of HP names change slightly in different mentions, like The Accidental Magic Reversal Squad/Accidental Magic Reversal Department etc. But it's possible it is fake, I don't think Frank and Alice remember what regular DBBG tastes like. Maybe Neville should smell the wrappers and compare with regular wrappers. :lol:

As much as I disagree with hesdeaddealwithit's disrespectul tone, I have to admit there's a good chance he may be right that the gum wrapper was just a sentimental thing. As I mentioned a while ago, my brain is undecided. But it's still fun to think/theorize about.

This thread is so fun! I really look forward to what we'll come up with next.

I don't know if mimbulus mimbletonia is a real plant. There is a plant called mimulus, or monkey flower which has about 70 species, so I think Rowling is having fun with the word and the imaginary plant.

The real mimulus, though, has interesting properties that might apply to Mimbulus. It is a "Bach Flower Remedy," invented by a Dr. Bach back in the late 1800s:

http://www.hpathy.com/BACH/Bach_Flower_mm.asp

http://healing.about.com/library/bl_essence_mimulus.htm

Mimulus flower remedy helps individuals get past fears and overcome shyness. It is useful in shifting a person's hesitation or over caution into movement. Essence that brings comfort to the solar plexus chakra to ease symptoms of anxiety and uneasiness.

Positive Qualities:
courage
self confidence
calming

http://www.edirectory.co.uk/chilternseeds/pages/moreinfo.asp?Table=Product&RecordID=BFBBHIB


Species: LUTEUS
Family Name: Scrophulariaceae
Catalogue No.: 875A
English Name: Blood Drop Emlets, Monkey Musk
Description: Well-travelled is this rather attractive, summer flowering perennial with large, red-blotched flowers for, although now naturalised in Britain (mainly in the north), its native home is Chile. 8-18 ins.

<<it is interesting that the people who were still alert at the end of the attack at the Ministry were the same ones who were squirted with stinksap on the train!>>

You rock, Silver Ink Pot! I knew as soon as she told us about Neville's stupid plant, it was going to be significant, and I've been trying to find a connection!! I hope while Gran is buying Neville a wand of his own, he can get an owl too. Poor guy.

Maybe the mimbulus will help Neville out. I just really, really feel for him. I can't say that I like him, but I wish I could make the other kids respect him...

Excellent research on the mimulus, silver ink pot! It helps individuals get past fears and overcome shyness. It is useful in shifting a person's hesitation or over caution into movement. Courage? Self confidence? Calming? Sounds like what's happening to Neville, Harry and Ginny all right! (except perhaps "calmness" for Harry :p) Dunno about Luna, we never met her before that incident, so we can't really compare. This could definitely be what the Mimbulus mimbletonia's purpose is! Perhaps Neville's gran knew that this would happen and that's the reason why she gave it to him?

Great work on the plant silver ink pot!
Are there any other interesting Bach flower remedies? Interestin to HP fans anyway.

Hi guys! I'm back! Miss me? All right I've actually been researching stuff while I've been gone. I asked my mom about mimbulus mimbletonia and what the english translation was. She also said that mimbulus was monkey but I don't see anything there at all! Think we'd better look at inky's translation to the plant of that name. Could connect.

Also with all these other plants: Quick Cooking sent me something with flowers and their ancient meanings on it. Thought you might find some of these interesting - Rowling could be using the same guide! Lily means 'purity.' Narcissus, which is in the Lily family and we alter to be Narcissa Malfoy, means 'egotism.' Petunia is 'anger;' I have a whole theory on that and plan to start a thread soon but it's obvious she's angry at her "freaky" sister and the wizarding world in general. Lavender is 'distrust.' When Harry told Hermione about Seamus she says, "Yes Lavender thought so too" or something along those lines. Poppy (Madam Pomfery) is either 'extravagance' - she does tend to overreact to minor illnesses - or 'sleep' often what she grants her patients. Violet is 'modesty' but I'm not sure that one applies to the Fat Lady's friend. Now back to bubblegum: Bluebell, the color of the bubbles that refuse to pop for days, is 'loyalty.'

So, from that, new theory. Drooble gives them the gum, which is NOT poisoned. He was an old friend of the Longbottoms and still visits them regularly. Knowing Alice's love of bubble gum he brings some with him each time. That explains where they get the gum. I also still believe it's possible that the wrappers meaning are "Go see Drooble" and that long ago (in a galaxy far, far away) the Longbottoms told him something that will play a signifigant part in the overall plot, something only the Longbottoms had discovered. Anyway, Alice and Frank swore Drooble to secrecy and he's kept quiet all this long while but maybe one day he and Neville will just happen to visit at the same time and Alice will urge him to tell the secret to her son. Awwww... How sweet. Then Neville comes back and tells the secret to Harry who uses it to defeat Voldie. Something like that; I'm making this up as I go. But it doesn't look like the gum's hindering them. Remember, inky's research, wonderful as it was, was about bluebonnets. Wasn't inky? Or am I confuzzled? Anyway, just thought I'd give you something to "chew" on. ;)

Now back to bubblegum: Bluebell, the color of the bubbles that refuse to pop for days, is 'loyalty.' (...) Remember, inky's research, wonderful as it was, was about bluebonnets. Wasn't inky?

Hi folks, *pant* I've just finished re-reading the first three HP books, and the appearance of our infamous Drooble's bubble-gum in PoA made me realize something. From the plant posts on this page it seems that it has all been posted in this long thread already (can't read it all online right now but I'm going to download it for offline read), but I'll post it anyway...

Harry comes across this special kind of gum during his first visit to Hogsmeade, at Honeydukes. There it says:

"... along yet another wall were 'Special Effects' sweets: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (which filled a room with bluebell-coloured bubbles that refused to pop for days), ..." (PoA, Bloomsbury p.147, chapter "The Marauder's Map")

So could the "hidden meaning" of the gum wrappers Alice gave to Neville be not in/on the wrappers, but have something to do with the gum itself?

1) Is it the wall, or the room at Honeydukes? Well, it's possible that there's something hidden there, but not quite probable. The bubble-gum would surely be available elsewhere as well.

2) The bubbles "refuse to pop for days". Could Alice be trying to prompt Neville that there's an important memory, resp. "bubble that has refused to pop", hidden in his head? (Assuming that Neville has been subject to a Memory Charm that "popped" all his other memories.) I'm sure I've read the suggestion already here or elsewhere, but this quote might back up the theory.

3) Their bluebell colour is the same colour of Hermione's little bright blue fire in PS/SS: in her jam jar (Bloomsbury p.134), on Snape's cloak (p.140) and on the Devil's Snare (p.202 - she "sent a jet of the same bluebell fire she had used on Snape's cloak at the plant"). In CoS the bright blue flames make a reappearance on the black candles at Nearly-Headless Nicks Deathday Party (Bloomsbury p.100f.), and in OotP they also burn on the candles in the DoM (Bloomsbury p.679ff.). No blue fire in PoA though, only the blue bubble-gum. I haven't checked in GoF yet, but it'll be next to re-read. So, could the wrappers have something to do with the blue fire, or with the DoM?

Argh, it's so confusing! Where's book 6? :p

No blue fire in PoA though, only the blue bubble-gum.
Unless the fire conjured by Lupin on the train to Hogwarts is the same bluebell-flame that Hermione specializes in. It doesn't say so, but Lupin and Hermione have a lot in common, so I always thought of his flame as bluebell coloured as well.

Wow, there really are a lot of bluebell flames aren't there? Can't say I ever noticed that. hmmmm.... No idea. But :welcome: to our wild and wacky thread, Serpentine! (You horse-back ride? That's a dressage pattern.)

(You horse-back ride? That's a dressage pattern.)

Hmm? Sorry, I don't quite get what you mean... But thanks for the welcome anyway :)

Unless the fire conjured by Lupin on the train to Hogwarts is the same bluebell-flame that Hermione specializes in. It doesn't say so, but Lupin and Hermione have a lot in common, so I always thought of his flame as bluebell coloured as well.

I don't think his flame is blue. Normally when a fire has a funny colour we are told so, and his flame doesn't give the faces around the eerie look they had at the Deathday Party or in the DoM. In the beginning of GoF (p.46) Mr Weasley lights a fire at the Dursleys' "fireplace", and at first there's nothing unusual mentioned about it either, until it is turned green with Floo powder. Other funny-coloured flames are those in PS/SS, the black and purple flames shielding the Potions puzzle. So I take it Lupin's and Mr Weasley's flames just had the same colour like a normal fire.

The only reason that I thought Lupin's fire might be the bluebell one is because he held it in his hands, which means it must have been a cool flame, like Hermione's. But you are quite right, it is not described as bluebell-coloured.

Hasn't anyone considered how useful Droobles Best Blowing Gum could be? It fills a room with giant bubbles that refuse to pop for days. Doesn't that sound a bit like a good way to hide, to deflect or block a curse, to provide a means of escape for someone?!

Maybe the clue isn't about her giving Neville the wrappers. Maybe she is asking for the gum saying she likes to give the wrappers to Neville and they are humouring her, and she is planning some kind of escape? If one piece of the gum can fill a room with huge unpoppable bubbles, what a great way to get out of what may well be quite a corrupt hospital, what with all the "donations" from death eaters such as Malfoy and dangerous plants somehow getting past the security! If the Longbottms WERE recovering, they wouldn't be likely to make it too obvious in there would they? They'd be at risk of someone "accidentally" administering some kind of potion to make them ill again. Perhaps they are stashing the gum? If the bubbles refuse to pop are they some kind of obstacle to curses?
They obviously aren't chewing the gum, they wouldn't be allowed to fill the hospital with bubbles for days. So it's going somewhere.

Good points, V's Counsellor! I just watched some cartoon (Cartoon Network?) with my stepson last night, and someone was transported AND shielded by a big, green bubble!

Ohhhh.... I wondered what Ron meant. Anyway... I still can't remember WHEN Rowling used an anagram on us!! You're all talking about it and I can't come up with a single one! ;)

One of the big ones was "Tom Marvolo Riddle" = "I am Lord Voldemort".

Ooh! Voldie's Counselor (gee, does he need one of those. good for you; very brave!) that's an excellent theory! We'd never given it an thought! :blush: They could blow one giant bubble around each other and float away inside of it. :lol: Just picture it! Or maybe blow a big one and allow it to pull them skyward. Now. If we could only get rid of the roof.... They aren't ever let out of the ward. Or maybe it's the reflective properties that'll reflect curses. Or pop the bubbles before it pops them. Brain full of little thoughts now. Thankx! :D

Sorry to furryfreakferret - didn't mean to repeat what someone else had already pointed out. I hadn't read the entire thread yet.

Back to the anagrams - as they're up my alley.

I read somewhere (and yes, I read this entire thread -WHEW! - to make sure it hadn't been said in here) that "Droobles Best Blowing Gum" anagrammed to say "Gold Bribe Below St. Mungos". It fits.

That thread also speculated that the gum was being used to keep the Longbottoms from recovering. Malfoy did make a very large contribution to St. Mungos, so it's possible that he has more than one person helping him to controll the prisoners - er, patients.

Another interesting idea they has was that the message was actually for Dumbledore, as he is very fond of candy. The humming observation seems to support that idea. Maybe she was humming a song Dumbledore also hums. Maybe humming is a language Dumbledore speaks.

Something original: The first thought I had when I read about Neville saving all the gum wrappers was of a jigsaw puzzle. Perhaps they could be fitted together to reveal the message his mother wanted to tell Neville. Someone else they could be linked like the chains we used to make out of gum wrappers (they were kind of pretty - especially the cinnamon ones). When the wrappers are folded and put together, maybe they do something like the old Mad Magazine back covers did - revealing a new picture and caption.

Hi folks, *pant* I've just finished re-reading the first three HP books, and the appearance of our infamous Drooble's bubble-gum in PoA made me realize something. From the plant posts on this page it seems that it has all been posted in this long thread already (can't read it all online right now but I'm going to download it for offline read), but I'll post it anyway...

Harry comes across this special kind of gum during his first visit to Hogsmeade, at Honeydukes. There it says:

"... along yet another wall were 'Special Effects' sweets: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (which filled a room with bluebell-coloured bubbles that refused to pop for days), ..." (PoA, Bloomsbury p.147, chapter "The Marauder's Map")

So could the "hidden meaning" of the gum wrappers Alice gave to Neville be not in/on the wrappers, but have something to do with the gum itself?

12) The bubbles "refuse to pop for days". Could Alice be trying to prompt Neville that there's an important memory, resp. "bubble that has refused to pop", hidden in his head? (Assuming that Neville has been subject to a Memory Charm that "popped" all his other memories.) I'm sure I've read the suggestion already here or elsewhere, but this quote might back up the theory.



The boils on Neville's plant exploded stinksap on Harry, Neville, Ginny and Luna on the train. The gum bubbles refuse to pop. :huh:

It's okay Popkin. Wow it seems weird to call someone that. Sounds kinda like Poppet. But it's a cool name so I'll stop making fun of it. It'd actually be an AWESOME pony name! (That's a VERY good thing in my book.) Anyway. Thanks for the anagram. You know, we had at least a page of that and never found anything that would fit in so well with the whole - er - situation. The best we had was Dedalus's "Goblins stole tomb bug" which subsequently I'm starting to think may have MAJOR merit. Ever notice how many time they mention scarab beetles (usually as potion ingredients but I gues you could stretch it to Rita)? It's quite a few and all in bad context: Rita, Harry mashing beetles w/ Snape's head.... I think beetle eyes are in there somewhere too (knut a scoop maybe in the apothecary?) Point is they come up a lot. A Bill's traveled further into the picture. He was a curse breaker for Gringotts, which is run by Goblins, in Egypt, where scarab beetles are from and I think in some way related to the gods. Don't know if it's a bad god? He might go back, too, Fred/George said he missed the tombs (but it had perks coughFleurcough - poor Ron :( ) It seems a likely story. But Popkin's fits in better w/ the general picture. Evil Malfoy is bribing St. M's to keep the Longbottoms insane and out of action. The less Aurors the better right? And they were top-notch. Plus I still think he probably took part in their torture in one way or another. Wouldn't want that worry over his head now would he? He'd be given the Kiss. Cuz know we KNOW Azkaban isn't safe and he could meet his old friends. Strike anyone else as ominous that he and Bella are on first name terms? Omitting the fact that that she's his sister-in-law? Anyway, I'm rambling so I'm going to take my rambling somwhere else now. Okay? See ya!

I personally disagree with the anagram thing, but I do think its interesting. I believe the anagram is a coincidence, but an odd coincidence.

I dont think the wrappers are clues exactly...Im not sure what I think actually...

I like the idea of stinksap being a message revealer, but if Mrs Longbottom cant speak, how likely is it that she can write? (And she probaly isnt allowed a wand, as she might accidently damage herself).
But I think there may be some connection between stinksap and the gum wrappers...Possibly...

Although it is interesting Boggart Snape wa sreaching inside his robes, I dont think it has relavance to the gum wrappers.

One thing Id like to mention: Does Alice actually use the gum, and later give the gum wrappers to Neville? Because in her condition, gum might be dangerous. My mum wouldnt let me have bubblegum until I was 8 or 9 because she thought I might swallow it, and gum stays in yoursystem for seven years, and you can choke and die I think. And Alice is sort-of like a five yr old in a way...Just thought Id mention it...

Their bluebell colour is the same colour of Hermione's little bright blue fire (...) I haven't checked in GoF yet, but it'll be next to re-read.

Just for the record: The Goblet of Fire itself is filled with blue-white flames (when it isn't throwing out pieces of parchment, that is - then the flames turn red). So the blue fire seems to appear in every book so far except PoA, where the blue gum makes its appearance. Hmmm.

A Bill's traveled further into the picture. He was a curse breaker for Gringotts, which is run by Goblins, in Egypt, where scarab beetles are from and I think in some way related to the gods. Don't know if it's a bad god?

As far as I remember, the scarab was connected to Horus, one of the Egyptian Sun gods (mid-day sun, I think) and son of Osiris and Isis. The idea was that the scarab kind of rolled the sun across the sky, like "earthly" scarabs roll their dungballs around. :)

Scarabs were also placed on the heart of a deceased person to be buried, in order to prevent the heart telling bad things on its "owner" at his trial in the Otherworld. That would help him to get admission to the joys of afterlife, such as being allowed to accompany the Sun on its daily travel through the sky.

Rather good than bad, I'd say. :)

They obviously aren't chewing the gum, they wouldn't be allowed to fill the hospital with bubbles for days. So it's going somewhere.

Good point - and as Hpmons said it could be dangerous for them to swallow it. :shrug: Unpoppable bubbles in the ward would surely be detected. But there must be other uses for it... stuffing keyholes, stoppering your ears against sounds... or she could be saving them in a drawer for something REALLY big... OK, I'm rambling now :D

About Neville's Mimbulus mimbletonia plant: Has anybody else noticed that in PS/SS Vernon whispers something like "Mimblewimble" when Hagrid is getting angry at him (Bloomsbury p.41)? I'm not sure about a connection though. Some kind of protection maybe?

I still think the wrappers are the key. It's a great point that Alice isn't likely to be allowed to chew gum, and certainly, a host of large, magic gum bubbles would be detected before they could be of any use.

Sigh. It will be a long while before we know if any of these musings amount to anything!

I like the idea of saving the gum for something big. I think there could be something to it.

More droobles best blowing gum anagrams:
Bubbles grow to gold mines.
Glow bubbles do sting more.

I'd forgotten about the blue flames in the GoF. Think I wouldn't since I nearly memorized that book while waiting for 5.

Also I reread that bit with Boggart-Snape. He's not reaching into his pocket. His eyes are flashing menacingly. But no mention of wand, vile, or rubber bands, spare bits of string, paperclips, and whatever else people keep in their pockets. Magic rings, oh yes precious musn't forget the magic rings.... It kinda puts a stopper to that theory whatever it was we were devising with that stray bit of information.

Mimblewimble and mimbulus mimboltonia, eh? Well, I see no connection hidden meaning in the word except that Harry couldn't quite hear properly. Though it might be a connector? With JK Rowling almost everything is. I rather thought it was either a muffled swear word (there are none in SS/PS), or an insult. Maybe "montainous wizards?" Not much of a swear word but it discribes Hagger pretty well.

I think I may have been reswayed into thinking there's something behind the name itself - anagams. Thankx Popkin! I think we gotta sit on this but it's between "Goblins stole tomb bug" and "Bribes behind St. Mungo's" - it was that right? Did I mention that they were talkign about how to get the golbins into the Order or at least aware?

And on a side note: the news is in! JK asked for patents for Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt and Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur. Titles for book 6 - thought you'd like to know. Of course, rumor had it that 5 was going to be Harry Potter and thew Green Flame Torch so who knows. Or maybe that was 6? :shrugs:

Hello Everyone! This is my first post and I am pretty darn excited about it. :blush:

This is a really good topic and I have thought about it a lot. The only thing that I remember about Droobles best blowing gum is that it fills the room with blue bubbles that last for a whole day, or something like that. I don't know if that means anything but I thought that I would throw it out there! The only thing that I can think of (and this is really far out there) is that the room full of bubbles might remind Neville's mom in some weird way of the room full of prophecies - maybe she was trying to tell him something about that?? Yeah, I know it's a silly theory.

Actually, I have always thought that maybe Harry Potter and the Green Flame Torch was another name for the fourth book, since the goblet of fire is a green flame torch, right?

Hey, :welcome: keightey! And I really mean welcome cuz really DID just join us. :lol:

Yeah, we were discussing the bluebell bubbles that refuse to pop for days. We've had lots of theories but the Room of Prophecy has never come up. Good job! I can actually picture how that could be. Besides, I'm still hanging on to the idea that the prophecy was really meant for Neville. We also talked about the meaning of the bluebell plant. Bluebonnets had a lot of negative air, like also bearing the name dead man's bells. But the bluebell plant itself means loyalty. ?? We also mentioned that the bubbles resembled the lights in Mungo's. I think there were some more ideas like she was trying to use them to escape the hospital or that you could trap Voldie inside one and he'd float up and up until he gets to close to a helicopter. I can't remember the rest of the bubble thoughts. Oh, but they were reflective! Also the flames in the Goblet were bluebell unless they were spitting out names, and there were some other fires, ones in jam jars that were bluebell.

But anyway, I got on here cuz I was reskimming the chapter about this thread and I noticed a few things:

It was here we were talking about the similarites between Harry Potter and Alice Through the Looking-glass wasn't it? Well, I just noticed that to get into St. Mungo's you have to go THROUGH the glass window with the ugly manequin! Alice really is on the other side of the glass! Not sure if it has any signifigance. I'm gonna try and read the book soon.

Also, um... I know there was something else I meant to discuss with you.... Oh yes! I was working with arithmancy on Drooble's Best Blowing Gum. I only wrote out the numbers that represent the letters but what if they are supposed to be like a combination for a lock? Just a random thought but, hey, you never know, do you? Maybe it's the key to working the "tomb bug!" Or the place gaurding the weapon which I STILL don't really believe was the prophecy. Maybe there's something else hidden in there that Voldie won't know about until one of the Death Eaters fighting during the end of OotP tell him? Maybe :gasp: they're hiding the secret to immortality in there!! :shudders: Scary thought.

Anyway, I'll leave you all know. I've got homework.

I think I may have been reswayed into thinking there's something behind the name itself - anagams. Thankx Popkin! I think we gotta sit on this but it's between "Goblins stole tomb bug" and "Bribes behind St. Mungo's" - it was that right? Did I mention that they were talkign about how to get the golbins into the Order or at least aware?:

The exact wording is "gold bribe below St. Mungos". Thanks for the kudos!

Maybe Alice is giving Neville all the wrappers so the staff at St Mungo's won't know she's stashing all that gum. She's gonna fill the place with blue bubbles and make a break for it in book 6!

Gold bribe below St. Mungo's is interesting. I can see two possible meanings.

One is that Lucius or whoever really is trying to stop the Longbottoms from recovering with money, and that all this is going on in the basement "below" Mungo's. Notice we were given an extensive map of Mungo's when we read the floor guide. Why? They could've just been lead by Molly to the correct room, but they didn't because Arthur had been moved and they needed to consult the welcomewitch. The floor guide doesn't say anything about a basement, but it's interesting that we now know what floor everything is on. Or maybe "below" is metaphorical and just means behind the backs of the MoM.

The other interpretation is that taking a bribe is below the morals of whoever runs the hospital. Meaning that they were never do such a thing because they're better than that. So there's really no bribery going on after all.

Chances are, that anagram is just a coincidence, but it's interesting none the less, especially when combined with the Tom's guns anagram. Oh and Furry, I'm pretty sure it wasn't JK who reserved those two titles, and it wasn't WB either, it was some company I've never heard of. And JK writes much better titles than those, I honestly doubt that either of those will be a book title. All the titles so far have referred to specific objects, places, or people, not ambiguous events. Even if it was JK or WB, I think they just did it to throw us off the scent.

I thought the whole idea of St. Mungo's being related to "Alice Through the Looking Glass and What She Found There" was very interesting. I thought I remembered something about a puzzle that was solved by folding a message in half and putting it against a mirror to see the answer. I couldn't find any reference to it, but I think I may have read an abreviated version. The only thing I saw was that all the books and poems were written backwards and had to be read in a mirror.

Some interesting correlations were that in "Alice" there is a character named Lily, and she is an infant daughter of the white queen. Alice is a pawn of the White Queen, but she becomes a queen by the end of the book. At one point Alice completely loses her memory and cannot remember her name, saying the she's certain it begins with an "L".

There were several references to white paper. At one time the white queen is dressed in white paper, and at another time it is suggested that Alice wrap the white queen's hair in papers (like rollers or curlers) to cheer her.

The entire book is about living in a backwards world. Every poem is about fish. The red and the white queen are in reality cats. The lion and the unicorn battle for the red king's crown. The pictures move. Tweedledee and Tweedledum's poem correlates cabbages and kings, and speaks of pigs with wings - but it is all nonsense.

If you can get anything useful out of all that, let me know.

What a great thread! I wish I was better at anagrams, because there seems to be something there.

It seems that it would be strange for someone at St. Mungo's to go for 14 years without some measure of improvement. Lockheart was supposedly very damaged, but he is getting better. So Alice may well be improving bit by bit. All we saw was a quick glimpse, but I thought about secret messages from Alice to Neville when I first read that passage. Schizophrenics write things down a lot--not that it necessarily means anything--but Alice may be trying to communicate with Neville.

And Lucius' generous contributions have always started alarm bells. What better way to get into wherever he needs for his nasty purposes? And the idea of Frank and Alice being purposely poisoned (or somehow dosed) to keep them *insane* is a real possibility.

And back (way back) to why torture Neville, well, it makes for a better incentive to talk, especially to the parents. They might endure their own pain, but watching their child suffer would make them talk more quickly, supposedly.

That is interesting information Popkin. I always love reading inciteful things like that.

The whole Longbottom situation is very suspicious. I can't believe they haven't made any progress in 15 years.

Maybe Neville's greatest desire is to have a real conversation with his parents. If that were the case, maybe the gum wrappers could be read in the mirror of erised!

The mirror of Erised doesn't show truth though. It on'y shows us what we want to see, so I don't think that Neville could really gain anything from it.

It gave Harry the sorcerer's stone. I think it can do more than show people their desires. It seemed to show Ron his desires, and perhaps helped him to solidify his goals so he could achieve them - he seems to be well on his way. The mirror was dangerous when Harry dwelt on his dreams, but if it was only dangerous, why would Dumbledore keep it around?

What Ron saw in the mirror wasn't reality. He might have worked hard to make it reality, but at the time it was just what he wanted more than anything.
It gave Harry the stone, because Dumbledore put a spell on it to give the stone to someone who desired it, yet did not want to use it.
Using the mirror to forge a conversation with Neville's parents seems like a bad idea. It could work, but you are playing with something that shouldn't really be messed with. There would be no way to know if it was an actual message from the Longbottoms or the message was just what Neville wanted to hear from them.

Hey that's right! I forgot, "And I'm Quidditch Captian too! And head boy!" Keep an eye on that, and Mr. Weasley being put up to MoM. ;)

Anyway, I hadn't even considered that there really wasn't any reason for us too have seen the floor layout for Mungo's. You might be on to something there, rabbie. Interesting but not at all useful... yet. Besides, seems like almost everyone was "Spell Damage." As much as I'd LIKE to believe that bribery really is below Mungo's employees, no such luck. Ever notice what a dingy picture she paints of Mr. Weasley's ward? And the annoying welcome witch? I don't know, I've just always had this bad feeling about the place though that could be my imagination struggling against it's loosely tied chain.

Thankx for the info on Alice Through the Looking-glass, Popkin! Coeincidentally, was that a good book? I need an independent reading novel for school and thought I might try that, more so I can plug it all back in here than because I want to. I don't think HP counts. :(

As far as using the Mirror of Erised to interpret the messages on the bubble-gum wrappers. It might play a part but I don't think it'll be that. Maybe the mirror could show him the cure or something? But I think the best idea we've had so far along the lines of a revealer was the stinksap! ;D The whole mimbulus mimbletonia does seem a bit random, doncha think?

Anyway, toodles y'all! I'm trying to come on as much as possible but my homework loads incredible! I'm only on now cuz I'm home alone. shhhhh....

I thought the whole idea of St. Mungo's being related to "Alice Through the Looking Glass and What She Found There" was very interesting. I thought I remembered something about a puzzle that was solved by folding a message in half and putting it against a mirror to see the answer. I couldn't find any reference to it, but I think I may have read an abreviated version. The only thing I saw was that all the books and poems were written backwards and had to be read in a mirror.

Some interesting correlations were that in "Alice" there is a character named Lily, and she is an infant daughter of the white queen. Alice is a pawn of the White Queen, but she becomes a queen by the end of the book. At one point Alice completely loses her memory and cannot remember her name, saying the she's certain it begins with an "L".

There were several references to white paper. At one time the white queen is dressed in white paper, and at another time it is suggested that Alice wrap the white queen's hair in papers (like rollers or curlers) to cheer her.

The entire book is about living in a backwards world. Every poem is about fish. The red and the white queen are in reality cats. The lion and the unicorn battle for the red king's crown. The pictures move. Tweedledee and Tweedledum's poem correlates cabbages and kings, and speaks of pigs with wings - but it is all nonsense.

If you can get anything useful out of all that, let me know.

I think you should start a thread to talk about Harry Potter and Carroll's Alice. I'm not a huge Alice person, but I know at least two people who examine Alice like their lives depend on it. There must be others. It could get interesting.

Popkin: I got so interested in the parallels between Through the Looking Glass, Alice in Wonderland, and the Harry Potter books that I started a thread called: "Alice Longbottom in Wonderland." I'll try to pull it up to the top later today and maybe you could post your ideas about the White Queen. We had a really good discussion going at one time.

I think there may be foreshadowing that Alice is going to get better at some point. In Alice in Wonderland, I think, there is a trial at the end of the book, and they talk about letters from the Knave of Hearts and how they are poems and riddles. This just has to be a clue! Alice helps them solve some kind of mystery, and then she gets to suddenly go home, which is what she wants.

Keep Reading, Popkin! I'm fascinated by Lily being the White Queen's daughter, since we know nothing about Lily's parents.

Alice may become a key character if she can get better. Wonder what the deal is with Neville's father?

Edited to Say to Popkin: I pulled up the "Alice Longbottom in Wonderland Thread" and copied your post to it - Hope you don't mind! I just know the people who used to post on that thread would be interested in what you had to say!

Thankx for the info on Alice Through the Looking-glass, Popkin! Coeincidentally, was that a good book? I need an independent reading novel for school and thought I might try that, more so I can plug it all back in here than because I want to. I don't think HP counts. :(


Yes, Alice Through the Looking Glass is a very good read. It is a children's classic, but a lot of adults have thoroughly analyzed it. I was really into it back in high school, but hadn't looked at it for (egads!) at least 25 years. I'm sure the on-line version I perused was abreviated. To get the most out of it, you should also read some analysis. I'm sorry I can't recommend one, but there are some very interesting books about it.

Correlating Alice Pleasance Liddel (from Wonderland) and Alice Longbottom was not my idea. That started further up this thread, and it sounded like it actually started somewhere else before that. I just thought it was very interesting.

Well, there's always, "The Compeat Annotated Alice" or something like that.

Another clue from "Alice Through the Looking Glass"?


When Alice (AIW) was talking to the tigerlily about flowers being able to talk, the tigerlily said that the reason most flowers can't talk is that their beds are too soft and so they are sleeping all the time. I thought there might be a connection between sleep and Alice and Frank Longbottom's inability to speak. Perhaps they are kept in kind of dream state somehow. Or maybe orders are issued to them in their sleep. Or maybe they are given sleeping potions that also keep them mute.

The dream state is my favorite of these ideas. You know how it happens in some dreams that there is a danger, and you can't get your feet to move or your mouth to speak - let alone scream. Maybe the Longbottoms are stuck in a dream like that.

AND, Alice Pleasance Liddel, the title character in the Alice books, has the same initials as Alice Longbottom. I will be really disappointed if we find out later that her middle initial is not "P".

Good discovery, Popkin! Alice and her husband have certainly been in bed all these years!

In OotP, one of the potions Snape teaches to the class is the Draught of Peace:

"today we will be mixing a potion that often comes up at the Ordinary Wizarding Level: the Draught of Peace, a potion to calm anxiety and soothe agitation. Be warned: if you are too heavy-handed with the ingredients you will put the drinker into a heavy and sometimes irreversible sleep. . . "(chapter 12, pg. 232 American)

A few pages later, as Snape is telling Harry all he's done wrong about mixing the stuff, two ingredients are mentioned, moonstone and hellebore. Moonstone is mentioned elsewhere in the book when Snape gives them an essay about it. It seems to have a positive effect on the user.

http://www.holisticshop.co.uk/dictionary/moonstone.html

In India today, and in other traditions, moonstone is still regarded as a sacred stone. It is a rejuvenating and vital crystal that brings calmness and awareness of things greater than our human body and mind. It is also sometimes known as the wishing stone.

But Hellebore is a poison:

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/helbla14.html

The Black Hellebore - once known as Melampode - is a perennial, low-growing plant, with dark, shining, smooth leaves and flower-stalks rising directly from the root, its pure white blossoms appearing in the depth of winter and thereby earning for it the favourite name of Christmas Rose.

The generic name of this plant is derived from the Greek elein (to injure) and bora (food), and indicates its poisonous nature. The specific name refers to the dark coloured rootstock.

. . . The dry powder causes violent sneezing. It has a somewhat bitter-sweet and acrid taste.

What's interesting is that Harry and his friends see Neville and his Mother in the chapter, "Christmas on the Closed Ward." Hellebore is known as "Christmas Rose."

There is another kind, also poisonous, called "Lenten Rose" that blooms around Easter time. Both Hellebores are members of the Lily family.

Nice catch, silver ink pot. I researched the matter further, and actually hellebore is specifically connected to the treatment of insanity. It has given the verb "helleborize" which means to treat for madness.

Here's the OED entry for hellebore:
[ad. L. elleborus, in 14th c. F. ellebore (Oresme), a. Gr. http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/easper.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/geacu.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/beta.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/rho.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/fsigma.gif, more rarely http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/elenis.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gif-. (The native L. equivalent was veratrum.) The initial h has been restored in Botanical Latin and in Eng. after the prevailing Gr. form.] 1. A name given by the ancients to certain plants having poisonous and medicinal properties, and esp. reputed as specifics for mental disease; identified with species of Helleborus and Veratrum; now, in botany, applied to the species of Helleborus, (N.O. Ranunculaceæ), including the Christmas Rose and its congeners: a. the plant; b. the drug.

c1420 Pallad. on Husb. I. 1044 This wermot, and eleure [eleborus]. c1440 Promp. Parv. 138/1 Elebre, herbe (K., P. elebyr), eleborus. 1561 T. NORTON Calvin's Inst. IV. xix. (1634) 730 margin, Anticyra where groweth Hellebor, a good purgation for phrenticke heads. 1718 QUINCY Compl. Disp. 30 Plants, which abound less with Rosin, such as Hellebore. 1882 Garden 28 Jan. 56/2 Hellebores..are at present almost the only occupants in flower in outdoor gardens.



b. c1400 Lanfranc's Cirurg. 83 Sle [worms] wihttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/sp/th.gif http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/sp/th.gife ius of calamynte..eihttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/sp/th.gifer wihttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/sp/th.gif decoccioun of elebre. 1599 MARSTON Sco. Villanie I. i. 172 As methodist Musus kild with Hellebore. 1652 BP. HALL Invisible World II. i, These errors are more fit for hellebore than for theological conviction. 1692 E. WALKER Epictetus' Mor. xxxviii, As whether..Hellebore can purge a Mad-man's Head. 1830 SCOTT Demonol. vii. 204 Wretches fitter for a course of hellebore than for the stake. 1884 TENNYSON Becket IV. ii. 165 Such strong hate-philtre as may madden himhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/sp/em.gifmadden Against his priest beyond all hellebore.

Hellebore can purge a Mad-man's Head. 1830 SCOTT Demonol. vii. 204 Wretches fitter for a course of hellebore than for the stake.

Wow! Thanks Phoenixsong! :clap: My deep research, which took all of five minutes, didn't lead me to that!

I think we are onto something here, although what good this does I have no clue. But Neville's grandmother definitely says that her son and daughter-in-law are insane, not just ill. So this all fits with using the Draught of Peace to keep them under control, perhaps.

I'm intrigued by that last sentence about "fitter for course of hellebore than for the stake." That is a definite link to witchcraft, don't you think? In other words, someone insane might have been thought to be a witch in old days, and therefore burned at the stake.

Thanks again! I'm off to search again!

Wow. Gasp.

I thought JKR swallowed a small library. Now I think it was probably a huge library.

On a superior planet.

Oh, heavens, it gets worse. The quote that silver ink pot picked up on seems to be from Sir Walter Scott's Letters on Demonology and Witchcraft which Scott published in 1830, with illustrations by George Cruickshank, written in the form of letters to his son-in-law, J.G. Lockhart. The work is available online here: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ScoDemo.html
and it is pretty fascinating, full of all kinds of accounts of witchcraft, lycanthropy etc. A possible source for JKR?

I think I feel the boat rocking, just a little. Off to read the online stuff.

I'm back. Is this a bit of a bombshell? Or am I the one rocking the boat?

Oh my gosh, Phoenixsong and Whizbang! If I had all day, I would just sit and read this - but I will definitely be back later to talk about this treasure trove of witchcraft history!

Wow! Cruickshank and Lockhart! I wonder what other names derive from this!

This has to be a source for Rowling. It is just the kind of thing she would love, I bet - obscure, deep, and detailed.

Wow. Gasp.

I thought JKR swallowed a small library. Now I think it was probably a huge library.

On a superior planet.

I love what you said, Whizbang! It is so true!

It seems Walter Scott was quite the psychologist.

It keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

Yes, indeed. Hmm....
Are you reading it through. I got to page 17 or so in chapter one and began scanning. I haven't recognised any more names.

Edit: I found the word Sith near the top of page 79. The asterisked reference is

* See "Essay on the Subterranean Commonwealth," by Mr. Robert Kirke. minister of Aberfoyle.

Sith! It really is Star Wars. She's such a leg puller.

:scared: In the spirit of the backwardness of the Looking Glass, I started reading in letter 10, instead of number 1. On page 278, I found this. He is talking about astrology, and this really reminded me of all the fun McGonagall and Dumbledore make of Professor Trelawney and her astrology. Notice the name :wow: :

Lilly, who wrote the history of his own life and times, notices in that curious volume the most distinguished persons of his day, who made pretensions to astrology, and almost without exception describes them as profligate, worthless, sharking cheats, abandoned to vice, and imposing, by the grossest frauds, upon the silly fools who consulted them. From what we learn of his own history, Lilly himself, a low-born ignorant man, with some gloomy shades of fanaticism in his temperament, was sufficiently fitted to dupe others, and perhaps cheated himself merely by perusing, at an advanced period of life, some of the astrological tracts devised by men of less cunning, though perhaps more pretence to science, than he himself might boast

Wow. Sounds like a mundungus type, this Lilly.
Scott seems to profess Christianity while writing everything else off as superstition or inflamed imagination, so far. Of course, it probably wasn't safe not to profess Christianity, regardless of one's opinion in the matter.

:lol: Whizbang:

I think it's funny that he wrote 300 or so pages of tiny print about something he claims he doesn't believe for a minute! But he sure can write atmospherically and in detail about witchcraft, death, torture, and ghosts!

Yeah he certainly was knowledgable on those subjects.
I'm awake! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

No! nO!

I better sign off. Crosseyed and half asleep.
G'nite! Trick or Treat!

Apple tarts on the counter.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I'm still back in Through the Looking Glass. It seems to me that all the white chess pieces are befuddled. Could it be that they could correlate with patients (in white robes) at St. Mungo's hospital? But I really like the idea of the White Knight being Sir Cadogan.

If the white queen is AIWAlice (and in Carroll's book, there seems to be some confusion on this point), then it would stand to reason that the white queen would also be HPAlice. (and I have problems with this, because Alice Longbottom cannot be Lily Potter's mother, and the white queen does have a daughter named Lily, but bear with me.) Then it would also stand to reason that the white king would be Frank Longbottom.

[AIWAlice is, at first, invisible to the white queen and king. When she picks them up and moves them, they assume it is a rather frightening natural phenomenon. About being moved, the king says,]

"The horror of that moment," the king went on, "I shall never NEVER forget!" "You will though," the Queen said, "if you don't make a memorandum of it."

[When the king picks up a huge (to him) pencil, invisible Alice mischeviously takes the pencil away and writes in his book while he looks on.]

"My dear! I really MUST get a thinner pencil. I can't manage this one a bit. It writes all manner of things that I don't intend." [The queen goes on to say,] "Those aren't YOUR feelings."

It seemed to me that these quotes might have something to do with the Droobles wrappers, or perhaps the Longbottom's testimony at Crouch's trial, or what they said when tortured.

Also, found a site with some commentary, and the complete works of Carroll on line (www.lewiscarroll.org) , but have not been able to locate The Compleat Annotated Alice on line. If any of you can find it, let me know. I think the mirror puzzle reference may be in it. I'm very disappointed in being unable to find the puzzle and work out it's answer again.

OK, silver, I have to clear up a massive misconception.

Scott, in defaming Lilly, is continuing a tradition in astrology. Lilly was one of the greatest astrologers of all time, bar none. Those of us who practice Horary and Electional astrology (two branches concerned with divination and picking a good time for doing things) still study his works. They are still available, and contain information unavailable anywhere else. People interested in astrology in the past (and Scott may have been one) tended to defame each other, making the other people look bad and thereby making themselves look way better. Especially if one person is dead and cannot fight back (as Lilly would have been to Scott). This backbiting and infighting is what tarnished the reputation of astrology in the 17-19th centuries more than anything else. So be warned, especially when looking at older occult works, realize the authors were not under any compunction to write objectively and put in some really massive biases, and take the information accordingly. Some, even purposely published erronious information just to make sure nobody else was ever as good as they were. That is another reason so many differing and possibly contradictory "results" from herbologies can be found.

Sorry to put a damper on the research, but understand this is what was going on, and read accordingly.

Other observations in Through the Looking Glass:

When talking to her kitten, Alice says, "Perhaps looking glass milk isn't good to drink."

When Alice steps through the looking glass, Carroll says the glass melts away like a "bright silvery mist". There may be something to that.

"It is the voice of my child!" the white Queen cried out as she rushed past the king, so violently that she knocked him over among the cinders. "My precious Lily! My imperial kitten!"

When Alice uses reason, she can't deduce anything useful in the Looking Glass world. To go forward she must walk backward, or else she will end up right back where she started. To complete a task, she must start at the end and work toward the beginning.

OK, silver, I have to clear up a massive misconception.

Scott, in defaming Lilly, is continuing a tradition in astrology. Lilly was one of the greatest astrologers of all time, bar none. Those of us who practice Horary and Electional astrology (two branches concerned with divination and picking a good time for doing things) still study his works. They are still available, and contain information unavailable anywhere else. People interested in astrology in the past (and Scott may have been one) tended to defame each other, making the other people look bad and thereby making themselves look way better. Especially if one person is dead and cannot fight back (as Lilly would have been to Scott). This backbiting and infighting is what tarnished the reputation of astrology in the 17-19th centuries more than anything else. So be warned, especially when looking at older occult works, realize the authors were not under any compunction to write objectively and put in some really massive biases, and take the information accordingly. Some, even purposely published erronious information just to make sure nobody else was ever as good as they were. That is another reason so many differing and possibly contradictory "results" from herbologies can be found.

Sorry to put a damper on the research, but understand this is what was going on, and read accordingly.

Oh, I don't think it's a damper at all. The point of this collection of letters to his son in law, J. G. Lockhart, (illustrated by Cruikshank), is that he seems to be trying to debunk everything but the church, and I doubt his honesty in that regard. It's interesting to read this in the light of both JKR and her work rather than accepting Scott's work as accurate or authoritative. It reminds me in some places of the work of Charles Fort. But I'll let that sleeping dog lie.

Popkin, nice work on Alice. Imperial kitten Lily. Daughter of the white king and queen. Alice becomes queen. (I've never read it, but my daughter just dumped a copy on my lap as she ran out the door. Is the puzzle in the book?)
I'm thinking of family trees. I suspect that Lily is not muggleborn but a half blood. (Complicated Mark Evans ideas.) Could Lily be from an important bloodline through her mother? And when she lost her mother, did Alice Longbottom, perhaps also from the same lineage, become a bit of a "supportive aunt" to Lily? And if Lily is magical on her mother's side, then Petunia .........

shoot me now.

OK, silver, I have to clear up a massive misconception.

Scott, in defaming Lilly, is continuing a tradition in astrology. Lilly was one of the greatest astrologers of all time, bar none. Those of us who practice Horary and Electional astrology (two branches concerned with divination and picking a good time for doing things) still study his works. They are still available, and contain information unavailable anywhere else. People interested in astrology in the past (and Scott may have been one) tended to defame each other, making the other people look bad and thereby making themselves look way better. Especially if one person is dead and cannot fight back (as Lilly would have been to Scott). This backbiting and infighting is what tarnished the reputation of astrology in the 17-19th centuries more than anything else.

HA, Sinistra! I don't feel badly at all about your post! In fact, I'm delighted! ;) :)

When we started talking about this strange collection of Scott's yesterday, I wasn't sure where it was all going. But around midnight last night, I think Whizbang and I both realized that Scott is so fascinated by all these intricate magical things, but at the same time he feels he has to debunk them. In my opinion, he is being sort of politically correct as far as Christianity goes. He can't say to the reader or to his son-in-law, "I'm a heathen at heart and love a good ghost story." Or, "I think there might be something to this astrology." So, like Whizbang, I don't think he is being honest, and Charles Fort, the great American collector of odd happenings, is a great analogy! I wonder if he was influenced by Scott?

I guess after writing three hundred pages about beheadings, fingernail removal, torture, and dunkings, Scott might have thought he shouldn't build himself up as a possible witch, for fear of reprisals from the church. Back then, to say you believed in astrology would be rather shocking for a man of Scott's literary stature.

So I'm excited to be educated about Lilly. Thank you, I'll be doing research on him! Rowling obviously has an interest in astrology, what with all the astrology in OotP, and undoubtedly more to come with the arrival of Firenze at Hogwarts.

My original post about Lilly was just a comment on the name, since we were searching for names from the books! It may still be significant, in some way. Wonder how into astrology Harry's mother was?

really fabulous posts, Sinistra, whizbang, and silver ink pot! I don't really have anything to add, but it is just lovely to see this level of discussion regarding the historiography of magic and witchcraft.

OK, Popkin: Back through the Looking Glass!

I don't know where to begin. I loved both of your new posts!

White befuddled chess pieces = St. Mungo's patients :clap:

Great idea!

Alice Longbottom = relative of Lily's

We are thinking alike! We don't know Alice's maiden name, unfortunately.

Now, the whole thing about the vanishing glass is brilliant because it refers to a mirror appearing and disappearing, or glass appearing or disappearing. That reminds me of the snake scene in SS/PS when Harry makes the glass disappear so the snake can escape, then it appears again and traps Dudley.

And there is more: Back to the "Draught of Peace" that makes people sleep (read back quite a few posts where we were talking about this). Here is what Carrol wrote:

When Alice steps through the looking glass, Carroll says the glass melts away like a "bright silvery mist".

And here is Rowling writing about the Draught of Peace, Chapter 12, OotP, pg. 233 American:

"the mixture had to be stirred exactly the right number of times, firstly in a clockwise, the in a counterclockwise directions" (mirror images)

"'A light silver vapor should now be rising from your potion,' called Snape"

"The surface of Hermione's potion . . . was a shimmering mist of silver vapor."

I am thinking that this mist may come from the moonstone that is supposed to be in the potion. And all these references to silver. Have you seen that thread about all the silver mentioned in the book? Alot of interesting posts on there!

It just makes me think that our Alice Longbottom is in some sort of drug-induced state that she needs to escape from, and leave her "soft bed" as we talked about the other day!

To be honest, when I read about the White King and the White Queen, I thought of Dumbledore and McGonagall, for some reason. But Lily wasn't their daughter??? Gosh, I wish Aunt Petunia had a hidden photo album or family tree that Harry could find over the summer. The Evans family tree!!!

On the other hand, "white" does describe Alice's hair at St. Mungo's. I wish we knew what Frank looked like, but we don't.

So we have the Tiger Lily out in the garden with Alice, and we have the white kitten named Lily who is the daughter of the White Queen. That has to be a clue.

Back to the Draught of Peace: In the end, Harry's is a disaster because he forgot the Hellebore (a poisonous plant - look back a few posts), and Snape makes it vanish by saying "evanesco." I am constantly amazed at how often Snape does this to Harry in the book. What does it mean? Evanesco is an anagram for "evans eco." But what does that mean???? :grumble: :banghead: There is something there, I just can't get my mind around it all. Mirrors vanishing. Potions vanishing. Silver on a mirror. Silver mist. Through the looking glass/mirror images. Clockwise/Counterclockwise.

. To go forward she must walk backward, or else she will end up right back where she started. To complete a task, she must start at the end and work toward the beginning

Popkin: I think this is very important. Maybe Alice didn't know what Bella and all wanted to know, because she wasn't involved in Harry's protection. Maybe she went insane, because she didn't understand all the intrigue surrounding Lily and James. We already know that Peter Pettigrew and Sirius switched as secret keepers. Maybe there is something else that confused Alice so much she didn't know what to tell Bella?

I think the Longbottoms were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after the events at Godric's hollow.
I'm really thinking about the Dumbledore and McGonagall are Lily's parents thing.

My daughter is going through, Through the Looking Glass. She's kind of amazed. The chess pieces move and have lives of their own. The people in the pictures on the wall all seem to be alive.
Alice is in a garden talking to flowers with bad tempers and, guess what, flower names.

Is the Red Queen, old Mrs Longbottom?

Popkin: Here is a really good website with analysis of the Alice Books. It has alot of the same stuff as the Annotated Alice.

http://www.alice-in-wonderland.net/?alice7b.html

I think I like Dumbledore and McGonagal are the white king and queen.

Notice that Lily (Lilly) shows up in both of the books we're looking at?

And the whole backwards thing ..... it hasn't gelled, yet, but is that how Harry is defeating Voldemort? Was it over on Halloween night in 1981, but we need to live through to it backwards?

On a different thread, I dropped a hint about Merlin who in some accounts, arrived an old man and grew younger with each passing year. He lived backwards. ?????!

Does this relate to anything in HP?

Thoughts?
Just the first thing that comes in to your wonderful and exotic minds? Cause my jello just won't jell.

Wow, you three! (inky, pheonix, and popkin!) I was just reading all that wonderful research. Let me check that I've got this straight: Alice's middle name HAS to begin with a 'P' or pop's gonna go nuke because then Alice Longbottom has the same intitals as Alice in Wonderland. The Longbottoms are being given the Draught of Peace by someone who's going too heavy on the ingredients. The hellebore, part of the Lily family and also known as the "Christmas Rose," like the chapter title, is one of the main ingredients. According to a quote from a book on witchcraft, written in the form of letters to Lockhart, also in the closed ward and who still gets weekly fan mail (even if he can't remember why), it is used to cure insanity. Another ingredient is the moonstone which is also known as the "wishing stone;" Neville wishes none of this had ever happened.

Hey, now I'm all cunfuzzled myself. Inky, was that excerpt at the top of the page from the thing by Sir Walter Scott or Alice? And when did we decide that Sir Cadogan was the white knight? I really should read that book! It's probably easier than Once and Future King. It's in OLD ENGLISH!!!! AHHHH!!! Anyway, back to Sir C, I noticed while I was skimming that his only mention in OotP comes right after Harry seriously messes up his Draught of Peace - any connection? And to further the point, Ron says they call him "if we ever need someone MENTAL." Shame, the Healers don't wear black/red cuz then they could be the other side of the board. But, no, they're in the governement color of lime green. Those quote Pop found from AIW about the white king's (Frank's) memory being so terrible seem somewhat signifigant and definetly do make another connection to the Longbottom's.

Popkin's other quotes: Alice talking to her cat and saying the milk may not be good to drink sounds rather like suggesting poison, of course it's simply cuz everything's backward in mirror-land but... And then there's the 'drink me' that makes her very small/large. More magic beverages with bad effects! And I suppose you COULD look at the queen recognizing the voice of her child as Alice recognizing Neville. Any references out there to Neville and cats? Besides that he's going to marry Ginny who's very fond of them?

I am thinking that this mist may come from the moonstone that is supposed to be in the potion. And all these references to silver. Have you seen that thread about all the silver mentioned in the book? Alot of interesting posts on there! -inky

Okay, my thoughts on this. Um, the thing Harry forgot was the hellebore which rather makes sense as it is supposed to cure insanity and in this case, "calm anxiety and soothe agitation."

I'm thinking of family trees. I suspect that Lily is not muggleborn but a half blood. (Complicated Mark Evans ideas.) Could Lily be from an important bloodline through her mother? And when she lost her mother, did Alice Longbottom, perhaps also from the same lineage, become a bit of a "supportive aunt" to Lily? And if Lily is magical on her mother's side, then Petunia ......... -whizbang

Ha! Which makes my theory of a past Sirius/Petunia romance make sense! sort of.... It is really cool to think of all of them being related! I mean, Alice, Lily, Petunia....

Wow, nice theory. I now to think that those gum wrappers might have some significance in the upcoming books. JKR seems to place in hints and why write about gum wrappers without having a reason pertaining to it. You got me hooked, I think that the gum wrappers are some clue to something explaing something about doing something to Voldemort. Haha, way to many somethings.

silver inkpot, I love the idea of Harry finding an old family album or family tree (too easy, I guess).

As for Sir Cadogan being the White Knight, that was on the Alice Longbottom in Wonderland thread.

I had already found the www.alice-in-wonderland.net site, but still was unable to find the reference to a puzzle that was worked out by folding the text in half and holding it up to the mirror to read it. Every text I have tried this with (folding top to bottom, bottom to top, writing the message from top to bottom and folding left to right and right to left) has resulted in nonsense. It mostly does not make letters. I suppose it might make runes, but they don't look to me like anything. It's driving me crazy. I think the reference was in the Compleat Annotated Alice. It's hard for me to get to the library, but maybe that's the only way that I'll figure it out.

In the site just referenced, and on www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html , there are several compositions which seem to relate to the Harry Potter novels in general. They have some similar themes, such as prejudice and hunger. It is all interesting to read - and extremely time consuming.

My head has also become quite befuddled, furryfreakferret. It's all so interesting, but I'm looking for an anchor to hitch it all to. Do you think that will be possible before the next book is published?

Wow, you three! (inky, pheonix, and popkin!) I was just reading all that wonderful research. Let me check that I've got this straight: Alice's middle name HAS to begin with a 'P' or pop's gonna go nuke because then Alice Longbottom has the same intitals as Alice in Wonderland. The Longbottoms are being given the Draught of Peace by someone who's going too heavy on the ingredients. The hellebore, part of the Lily family and also known as the "Christmas Rose," like the chapter title, is one of the main ingredients. According to a quote from a book on witchcraft, written in the form of letters to Lockhart, also in the closed ward and who still gets weekly fan mail (even if he can't remember why), it is used to cure insanity. Another ingredient is the moonstone which is also known as the "wishing stone;" Neville wishes none of this had ever happened.

:lol: :rotfl: :lol: ;) :rotfl:

As long as Furry can tie it all together this way, our time is not wasted!

I'm still laughing out loud, forgive me. Ahem.

Hey, Whizbang - where's that jello?

Popkin: you might be interested to know that mirror-writing is something that takes place not just in Wonderland. Leonardo da Vinci very famously used mirror-writing in his notebooks. He set up a mirror on the side of his paper and wrote in reverse from right to left, so that the words were correct in the mirror. da Vinci was a pioneer in the use of lenses and mirrors as well.


I'm not sure that I believe that Lily was connected to Alice in any biological way, though they might have been close. I'm going to trust Dumbledore on this one and believe that the Longbottoms are pureblood and Lily is muggleborn. If this is true, then only James could be connected to the Longbottoms.

And good info about the Draught of Peace. I think that moonstone is likely to be important, for the reasons given above and because of the importance of Moony and Luna as characters. In India, at least, moonstone is thought to secrete liquid when moonlight falls upon it, though I doubt JKR is familiar with this idea, since I don't think she knows much about India. If, as some have surmised, Moony is a Gemini (that twin thing, Romulus and Remus), then moonstone is a stone particularly associated with that sign (either that or pearl).

What a great thread! Thanks, Whiz, for calling my attention to it. I'll be back when I've had a chance to digest some of the posts here.

???? Now I'm confused again.... I guess I better get to Borders' to pick up Alice so I can attempt to follow the conversation. I need that anchor Popkin talked about. Or actually, I'd prefer a draw bar. Did I tell you guys the good news? :lol: Just ignore my random rant - I'm gonna get my tractor lisence! I'll be 14 with a LISCENCE to DIRVE!!!! :D I should have it by the end of the marking period I'd guess. It's a class for school. So far I've driven in our school parking lot twice without totaling any of the seniors' cars OR killing anyone! Yay for furry! :clap:

Anyway... good catch with all that stuff on the moonstone, pheo! I know we read about it once... maybe in Social Studies... in 7th grade.... Anyway, the fact that's it could be connected to Lupin could become signifigant. I can't think of how now. Unless it's the missing ingredient for the cure for lycanthropy! Oh, I'd love to see Lupin get better... I felt worst for him with the whole Veil thing.... :(

:lol: :rotfl: :lol: ;) :rotfl:

As long as Furry can tie it all together this way, our time is not wasted!

I'm still laughing out loud, forgive me. Ahem.

Hey, Whizbang - where's that jello?

Furryfreakferret works much better. Really nice job putting it all together. <loud applause> Thank you, furry. :clap:

But I can't stand that Petunia might be a witch. My very first post on these hallowed boards was that I thought Petunia was a squib, and I have long since given that up! I just don't want it back again. :sad:

And maybe Snape or Ern the busdriver and Petunia, but Sirius? He was rich and handsome and he had a flying motorcycle. He probably could have had his pick of the girls. She's pale and bony, horsefaced, and she has a long neck. :no:

This is really amazingland, and you all are the most amazing team hereabouts. :clap:
Now I really want to see JKR's notes when the series is done. I can't begin to imagine what's in there.


Wonder how into astrology Harry's mother was?

This question just made it through my brain. Astrology in reality is very ancient, and could be called in these books, ancient magic. And like the phoenix legend, astrology has roots all over the world in some form or another. I wonder if Lily was good at it?

I posted this exact same thought on the Alice Longbottom in Wonderland thread. Maybe it would be a good idea to close that thread and keep all our thoughts in one place.

After a while, I'd like to put all of our ideas together into one paper, so I can make more sense of it. I'm not to that point yet. I feel like I've got a lot more to read. If any of you beat me to it, I certainly won't be upset.

From Alice Longbottom in Wonderland:
I just read the interview of JKR at the Royal Albert Hall (on mugglenet), and noticed that she made two statements that tied the HP world to the Alice world.

The first was that Harry, after living in the harsh reality of the Dursley's home, expected the wizarding world to be a "wonderland". Then, the first person he meets in it (after Hagrid) is Draco, and Harry begins to see the prejudice that taints the wizarding world.

Using the word "wonderland" in this sense is interesting, because there are so many theses (sp.) written about the Alice books that pick up on the theme of prejudice. Also, Alice herself was delighted with Wonderland at first, but as she went from adventure to adventure, encountering one unpleasant creature after another, she grew quite weary of it.

The second comment was that Luna, unlike logical Hermione, was the character who would "believe a thousand impossible things before breakfast." While the number is different from the source, I'm sure this is an affectionate reference to the White Queen.

Anyway, making two references to the Alice books during her interview probably does mean that using bits and pieces of Carroll's classics is second nature to Rowling.

I found a site which, although it doesn't seem to have that much about the Alice books, has a LOT of website addresses for literary analysis of the Harry Potter books. It looks like a GREAT resource for anyone who wants to learn anything about Harry and his world.

http://www.ksu.edu/english/nelp/rowling/index.html

*bows* Thanks, whizbang. (I'm doing my Spanish homework at the same time. :evil: ) I know whatcha mean about the notes. I write Draco fics and I heard she has a book on the history of the Death Eaters. *makes wild snatches at an invisible book. "Come on! Just give me the BOOK!"*

Where's that interview on mugglenet, Pop? It's very interesting that she DID choose to use the word "wonderland" to describe Harry's first impression of the wizarding world. But Draco WILL become a good part of the wizarding world. If JK doesn't do it, I'm taking control of the situation. It just seems like she wouldn't give him such a HUGE part if he weren't gonna play a major role. And it BETTER be for the right side. *glares at charecter* If he doesn't, I've heard he makes a pretty good ferret. But I'm sidetracking. Sorry. :sorry: Now, explain this connection between Luna and the White Queen (if Harry lives, they're hooking up so that could be it)? I haven't read the book remember. But I'm gonna try. I just have to make it to Borders'. :sigh:

furryfreakferret, I got that site location from jessicacarstens: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkr-royalalbert.shtml

I don't have a copy of "Through the Looking Glass" with me, so I'll have to work from memory, but the scene goes something like this. Alice and the White Queen are having a discussion, and Alice says, "I can't believe impossible things!" and the White Queen replies something like, "I dare say you haven't tried. It's a matter of practice. I make it a habit to believe at least six impossible things before breakfast."

freakyfurryferret: Don't go to Borders! Just go to the local library, which iswhat I did, and get The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition. Or you an read both Alice books online here:

http://sunsite.tus.ac.jp/coll/alice/alice_toc.html

Read it! Accio Alice immediately!

Popkin: You are a genius! I have never seen those quotes from Rowling, but they tell me we are on the right track!

As I said above, I got the Annotated Alice on Friday and it is full of little footnotes and tidbits. I was beginning to think that maybe the Longbottoms are the white king and white queen, until I saw your quote. But maybe Rowling is playing around with history repeating itself, and Luna is supposed to be similar to Alice Longbottom in some way.

I think you'll like this. Here is something that Lewis Carrol wrote about the white queen for an article called "Alice on the Stage." Even in Lewis Carrol's time, Alice was produced for the theater. So here is a quote about the white queen straight from the author himself:

" the White Queen seemed, to my dreaming fancy, gentle, stupid, fat and pale; helpless as an infant; and with a slow, maundering, bewildered air about her just suggesting imbecility, but never quite passing into it; that would be, I think, fatal to any comic effect she might otherwise produce. There is a character strangely like her in Wilkie Collins novel No Name: by two different converging paths we have somehow reached the same ideal, and Mrs. Wragg and the White Queen might have been twin sisters."

I'll have to look up the novel No Name. Wilkie Collins also wrote the novel The Moonstone, and I keep thinking that I should read that as well, since we know that Luna's name refers to the moon, and moonstone is mentioned over and over in OotP.

One thing, too, is that the first picture of the white queen in the chapter "Wool and Water" in Through the Looking Glass, looks just like Alice Longbottom down to the round face and wispy hair.

silver ink pot, I just want to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts. You always put so much thought and research into them, and you ALWAYS encourage and give credit the other contributors to the thread. I am really enjoying this thread, not only because of the incitefulness of the posts, but also because of the comradery of the contributors. Thanks.

I did not get the impression that JKR was linking the White Queen with Luna (though she may have been), but rather that she has little Alice quotes ready on the tip of her tongue for an appropriate placement. I still think Alice Longbottom is modeled after the White Queen and Alice Liddell.

You are so welcome, Popkin, and I feel exactly the same way about all of you on this thread. This is such a special community here, and we have such an interesting opportunity to be interpretors of a "Work in Progress," to make predictions and connections and see if they come true in future books. It just makes me happy to know I'm not alone in my eccentric interests.

:blush: Blushing now! :blush:

Thanks for clarifying that about Alice and Luna, although I guess I didn't make it clear in my last post that I totally agreed with you. I think it is great to know that Rowling has the Alice books on her mind! It makes me wish for another interview! :drool:

Aren't we special? Group hug!!!!!

:blush: Yeah, reading the annotated version would've been more useful.... But I'm gonna use my independent reading book in school. I just got back from Borders' (awesome place :D Shame it's not ag related or I could work there.) Pop's right, inky - you're posts are always so RESEARCHED!!! I'm find myself a bit in awe. Or marveling inwardly at how much effort you put into your homeowork. :) I know the HP books by heart almost.

I happen to, given what I've read here, agree with you that the White Queen may be Luna rather than Alice. I suppose it could really be either but the history repeating itself seems to be a popular theme (at least in fanfics). Then again, Harry, thankfully, is NOTHING like his big-headed father! *throws a mountain of bricks at James's head in an attempt to give him SOME sense*

Here's an interesting quote from Alice in Wonderland, from the beginning of chapter four, "The Rabbit Sends in a Little Bill":

"It was the White Rabbit, trotting slowly back again, and looking anxiously about as it went, as if it had lost something; and she heard it muttering to itself, 'The Duchess! The Duchess! Oh my dear paws! Oh my fur and whiskers! She'll get me executed, as sure as ferrets are ferrets! Where can I have dropped them I wonder?' Alice guessed in a moment that it was looking for the fan and the pair of white kid-gloves. . ."

IF the White Rabbit is Dumbledore (constantly looking at watch, white fur/hair and whiskers, mysterious comings and goings) and the Duchess/Queen of Hearts is Umbridge (toadlike appearance, short fingers and other physical similarities, power giddy, constantly issuing decrees), and the ferrets are Draco and the Malfoys (maybe), and Alice is (?) Alice Longbottom or Luna Lovegood, THEN

What does this mean for Dumbledore? If only the White Rabbit had lost its socks instead of its gloves, then I would really think we were getting somewhere.

I still haven't gotten the Annotated Alice. Any helpful hints there?

I had a thought:

It could be a clue about Umbridge ousting Dumbledore from Hogwarts. Since all of the Queen of Hearts' (aka the Duchess) decrees are "Off with [his, her, their] head[s]", JKR could have had this passage in mind and used it as a reference to Umbridge's decree that put her into the position of headmaster. If that were the case, then the quote from Alice could be a hint that the Malfoys were behind Umbridge's placement.

Popkin, Thanks for referring me to this thread- Very interesting!
Silver Ink Pot- For Wilkie Collin's The Moonstone, The stone in the story is discribed as a Yellow Diamond which had been set in the forehead of the Indian god who typified the moon. It supposedly grew and lessened "in lustre with the waxing and waning of the moon" It was to be guarded at all times by three priests, with a curse to follow anyone (and their family) who stole it... which of course happens, leading a story of love and deception, among other things...
I've no idea how this would relate to Luna, the discription would seem to fit Lupin more easily- waxing and waning of the moon... a curse...
Hm. I'm interested to hear what you make of it, though.

Thanks, silver and everyone for understanding about the research
problem.

I was re-reading GoF and in it they mentioned Frank Longbottom was an Auror and he and his wife were tortured. Now, in OotP, Frank *and Alice* Longbottom are Aurors. So was she an auror before, or did JKR elevate her to Auror status for gender equity? :D
Or did I just find another mistake? :banghead:

I have been reading the Alice analogies with interest, but don't have a lot to add because it has been many years since I read it, and my plate is full, so I just don't have time. Besides, you guys are doing a great job of making it all very clear.

Sinistra: regarding the question of Alice's auror status, I wouldn't call it so much a mistake as a development. A lot of people assumed from GoF that she was an auror, too, but nitpicker that I am, I would always point out that only Frank was called an auror there. But she is definitely called an auror in OotP. Perhaps it is for the purpose of greater gender equality, and JKR wants us to be perfectly clear that there are plenty of married professional women in the wizarding world, not just stay-at-home moms like Molly Weasley. But as JKR isn't exactly contradicting her earlier description, it isn't really a mistake.

OMG! Popkin and I were thinking the exact same thing! I just read the quote she posted above in "The Rabbit Sends Out a Little Bill." I was like, "Ferrets!? BOUNCING ferrets!!! lol!" So the quote: "As sure as ferrets are ferrets." Well, from HP the ferret wasn't a ferret so that doesn't make it very sure, does it? Think she's going somewhere with this? Perhaps, things aren't always as they seem? *coughcough* Draco IS coming out all right! I refuse to believe anything else!

Now, as far as the White Rabbit being DD, I don't think it CAN be. Dumbledore's NEVER late and NEVER lost! He knows all and sees all! Umbridge and the Duchess I can't yet make comment on because right now Alice is cramed inside the rabbit's house and is about to be ousted.

I have noticed some hints to Alice being Alice. Alice in Wonderland is ALWAYS talking to herself and arguing with herself. Seeing as Alice HP is unable to talk the only conversations she COULD have are with herself, possibly only in her head. :( Or you could interpret it as Alice IW is often speaking nonsense, something I'm sure Alice HP is quite capable of, if she can speak at all. OR you could say that maybe being tortured to insanity feels like falling down a long rabbithole like a very, very long time. Am I stretching my imagination to much now?

Pop, I don't think the Malfoys WERE behind Umbridge's placement as much as I blame Lucius for almost everything else. I think, had the been choosing someone to invade Hogwarts, it would have been him. Yet another way to gain even more undeserved respect in the eyes of the wizarding community, punish Draco (he's abusive), and make the Dark Lord proud. Imgaine Voldie's reaction if he got Dumbledore out of Hogwarts and left Harry in the open! He'd be above BELLATWIT!

But as far as the Auror status of Alice I believe it's a more of a new development rather than a mistake though perhaps she decided in the interm of GoF and OotP that she wanted Alice to be an Auror. But I got the impression in GoF that she was one. Notice it says believing THEM to have insight into the whereabouts of your exiled master, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named or something close to that. The important part is the "them".

Venustas: Thanks for the information about the Moonstone! I saw a PBS version of this a while ago, but have forgotten the plot. Is there something in it about a ring or pin with a snake on it? Maybe I am confusing it with another book.

Freaky, my furry ferret friend: Here are even more ferrets that Mr. Weasley found in one the ministry raids:

Chamber of Secrets, American, Chapter 3, pg. 38:

"There was some pretty nasty stuff that wasn't my department, though. Mortlake was taken away for questioning about some extremely odd ferrets, but that's the Committee on Experimental Charms, thank goodness . . . . "

Mortlake sounds like an interesting character!

I meant to add above that what interests me about Fudge is that he was around when Harry's parents died. He was the first Ministry official on the scene, supposedly, after Peter Pettigrew killed all those muggles on the street. The White Rabbit seems rather sinister to me, and I don't trust Fudge.

You know, the White Rabbit is certainly unpleasantly mysterious - I'm not sure about sinister. But Alice is very interested, at all times, in finding the White Rabbit, believing that if she can follow him she will be able to get into the beautiful garden. Of course, once she gets there she finds it te be decidedly disagreeable.

I don't know where I'm going with this. Time to quit for now.

:huh: :rolleyes: Popkin: You are probably right that "sinister" is too harsh a word for the white rabbit. I'll have to think about why Alice would be following Fudge. Of course if she was an auror, they might have worked together.

Ok, I'm going to forget about Alice in Wonderland - just for tonight, don't worry!

I have a new Alice to talk about, one I had never heard of until opening a book catalog the other day. I saw a book listed called Princess Alice: Andrew of Greece by Hugo Vickers. Forgive me everyone in the United Kingdom! I am not up to speed on my British Royalty!

She is the mother of Prince Phillip, and the grandmother of Prince Charles.

The story sounded interesting so I started researching her. I'll post the links at the end so you can read about her yourself. I want to paraphrase a few tidbits that are interestingly similar to our Alice:

1. She was born profoundly deaf, but she could lip reading, do finger alphabet spelling, sign language, and could talk a little.

2. In 1902, she married Prince Andrew of Greece when she was 17 and he was 20. They had a wedding picture made, and years later someone pointed out that over half the people in the picture were dead by the end of WWI. (remember Moody's picture of the Order?) They had four children, including Prince Phillip of Great Britain.

3. Her husband was nearly executed for political reasons, then they separated from eachother.

4. She became a Greek Orthodox nun in 1944 following her husband’s death. She suffered a nervous breakdown and was institutionalized in Switzerland, emerged and founded (in 1949) the Christian Sisterhood of Martha and Mary, an order of nuns tending the poor and sick on the island of Tinos in Greece.

5. She sheltered a group of Jewish children in her flat in Greece during WWII, and was recognized by the state of Israel as one of the "Righteous among nations."

What is interesting to me is how she overcame all these problems, yet, continued to do one good thing after another! I'll have to get this book and add it to my every-growing stack! I would certainly like to hear more about her time of insanity and how she was cured.


http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Andrew_of_Greece

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=IGQCG

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:cYLkSdjM3NMJ:www-instruct.nmu.edu/communications/restelle/NOTESALICEOFBATTENBERG.DOC+princess+alice+greece+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I've been wondering about why Stubby Boardman was hit in the ear with a turnip, and found some interesting stuff about Helleborus niger/Christmas rose.

A remedy for worms in the ears:

...or, take the juice of radish or of turnip and put into the ear, for these two slay creeping worms that are in the ear. Also, the juice of wormwood, of centaury, of horehound, of eleborus niger (Ranunculaceae, Helleborus niger, Christmas rose), slay worms in the ear and in the womb.

Worms in a man's ears come in two manners: One is y-gendrid internally of corruption of the ears, another from externally, that creep into the ears. And whether they come in one manner or in the other, they shall be slain by medicines that are bitter.
from http://skell.org/SKELL/earworms.htm

I don't know if you can use any of that, but corruption of the ear certainly would affect speach, and in this instance Hellebor, though poison, is used as a cure.

I feel like I'm getting way off into left field here, though. I think I just need to stop for a while and absorb the info we've recently stuffed into my brain.

silver ink pot, Princess Alice does sound quite a bit like our Alice. I hope you can find out how she was cured - maybe it will have something to do with gum wrappers! Even if it doesn't pan out, it was interesting to read about her - she sounds like a saintly woman.

In India, at least, moonstone is thought to secrete liquid when moonlight falls upon it, though I doubt JKR is familiar with this idea, since I don't think she knows much about India. If, as some have surmised, Moony is a Gemini (that twin thing, Romulus and Remus), then moonstone is a stone particularly associated with that sign (either that or pearl).

Look for posts by paperflowergirl.

JKR is practically a hindu.

Well I do not know much about any Alice's, so I will just have to avoid that part of the discussion (I have never even watched Alice in Wonderland all the way through)

As for the origional question posed by this thread, I always wondered about that too, I believe that the Gum and the gum wrappers have a lot of importance just one of those things that JKR tends to throw out there. I also believe that at least Alice Longbottom is getting some of her sanity back.

I have no idea who put Umbrige in, but oh did she do a job!

As for how long has Alice has been an Auror, I do not think that it was a mistake, just a developement, like she was always an Auror, it was jut never mentioned before then.

:welcome:zoeydsngwrtr! Tea? In a clean cup, of course.:)
Maybe we should move the Alice stuff back to the other thread.

I can't believe I missed the group hug at the top of the page. You are all pretty unique. This is the only forum I can remember where progress is made by support and cooperation instead of dabating things through ...... repeatedly. I like debating too, so I'm happy either way. But we definitely can get more hugs here.

Wilkie Collins also wrote the novel The Moonstone, and I keep thinking that I should read that as well, since we know that Luna's name refers to the moon, and moonstone is mentioned over and over in OotP.

Another connection to India? And JKR admires litereary inventors. Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey is considered the first Gothic novel and I'm pretty sure that Collins Moonstone is understood to be the first modern mystery novel. As for poison in the ear, (Hamlet) who was more inventive than Shakespeare? I see elements of the Gothic formula in the HP plot. Anyone see elements of modern mystery novel? (I was out that day.;))

BTW
This link should go to the page in the all inclusive names thread with the post by paperflowergirl, right under one by silver ink pot. She connects JKR's story very nicely to India.
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=570891#post570891

I always wonder if JKR is really familiar with all this stuff. Sometimes I can't imagine that she isn't. But a certain amount of it has got to be subjective, in the mind of the reader. Another thread.

hey whizbang, regarding the paperflowergirl post you linked to: I don't really think that JKR knows all that much about India. I happen to know a lot about Indian mythology, and there is really not much in the HP books from India. Naginis are female snake creatures who often guard treasure, either real or metaphorical, like wisdom. The name St. Mungo's, besides maybe coming from the real St. Mungo, who is not Indian, may come from the Indian plant mungo that cures snakebite; mungo is also another name for the mongoose, which fights snakes. But the bit about Harry and Hari is pretty farfetched in my opinion, since they don't even sound alike. I mean, it is just as likely that Harry is like Herakles (which has crossed my mind before!). And Garuda is not a phoenix. While he does have a particular hostility to snakes, the mythology of the animosity between birds and snakes is extremely common, throughout the world. But phoenixes are specifically associated with their spectacular rebirth from the flames, which Garuda does not do (though he is narratively linked to the nectar of immortality).

Gosh, now I feel so argumentative and contentious, after all the nice things you said about this thread being one where knowledge is forged through conversation. It's not that I'm not open to the possibility that JKR draws from all kinds of sources (I was the origin of that Walter Scott business, after all!), but I also feel quite strongly that we should try not to allow false appearances of similarity run roughshod over other people's religious traditions. I'm pretty certain that Harry Potter is not Vishnu. Moreover, I think that Rowling is fairly sensitive to the politics of such things, which is why she really only draws upon mythology that is no longer connected to people's current religious practices.

Oh, and I know a little girl in India who wrote to JKR to tell her that she ought to set one of the Harry Potter books in India because there is such a wonderful tradition of magic in India, and JKR actually wrote her back to say that she didn't have any plans just then to set any of the books in India, and that she didn't know a lot about India but that the little girl's letter made her think that she really ought to learn more. (When she related this story to me, my opinion of JKR raised just that much more!)

Thank you for the welcome wizbang, yes, I will gladly accept your cup of tea (from the clean cup of course)

Intresting thoughts phoenixsong. That is really cool to know about nagini

phoenixsong, if we don't disagree, we don't have a fair exchange of ideas. What is great about this thread is that it doesn't repeat the same disagreement over and over and over again.

If we're not careful, it'll become tedious to read what a great thread this is (again).

Whizbang: May I have a cup of tea, also? :agree:

I agree that these books have elements of a gothic mystery. Look at how we are digging for clues!

Today I was reading the St. Mungo's scene again, to see if I had missed anything. Something did stick out this time.

When the healer is telling Harry what they do on the Closed Ward, she says to Harry:

""This is our long-term resident ward . . . For permanent spell damage, you know. Of course, with intensive remedial potions and charms and a bit of luck, we can produce some improvement."

(pg. 311, American, Chapter 23)

Well, after they go home that evening, Snape comes to the house to tell Harry about Occulumency lessons and he uses the term "remedial potions" as a sarcastic joke about Harry's bad grades. Is this a coincidence? I looked up the word "remedial" and of course it means to correct your study habits. But it can also just mean "supplying a remedy" and "remedy" can mean the "righting of any evil, fault, or error." The root word of remedial and remedy means "to heal."

It just seemed odd to me that the healer used that word. :scared:

Also, the whole thing with Bode seems really strange. It's interesting that he has begun to regain his speech, and then he is killed with the strange plant that is brought in. But what is it with that "calendar of fancy hippogriffs?" A few pages earlier, Rowling has Sirius Black singing "God Rest Ye Merry Hippogriffs" at the top of his lungs. He is the person most associated with hippogriffs, yet the children didn't bring this present did they? Did Mrs. Weasley bring it with her? Hmmmmm.

:welcome: to thread zoeydsngwrtr! Ignore me while I discuss Alice for a bit. Thank you! (3rd paragraph gets off the Alice books.)

I don't think the Rabbit is sinister. Oddly mysterious maybe but most of the people in HP are. And everyone in AIW is pretty messed up, you'll have to agree. No one tries to box themselves for cheating in corquet against themselves. (That's Alice in case you're wondering. Could be a connection though I hope Alice L. wasn't that hard on herself. I think she would've been pretty easy-going. Notice all the Aurors were sitting around chatting and laughter was echoing into the hallway? Of course, now, and then, they'll be/were busy with catching Death Eaters and trying to track Voldie.) I don't know I've only read a few chapters. You guys probably know better.

hmmm... this Princess Alice DOES suond quite a bit like Alice Longbottom. And I suppose Rowling WOULD know a bit about her. But I think we, as readers and not overanylsers, would be able to relate to the literary illusion of Alice in Wonderland better. Usually, she WANTS us to connect the dots. Besides that, the HP books are translated into 14 different languages and only the Brits would know about P. Alice. Too many of us would be saying, "huh?" But good research, inky, and definatly some tasty brain food.

So from Pop's info on hellebore, Stubby had worms ears (I can't remember a turnip being involved, but that's ok - I don't remeber much)? Maybe the Longbottoms have little "worms" (evil persons) talking in their ears? Of course, the turnip could've been connecting him to Luna (who believes Stubby to be Sirius) who has turnip earrings. Odd girl.

As far as JK knowing about all this "stuff" we've been discussing. I think she knows most of it. Or could look it up online like we do. But, then again, she doesn't know Arithmancy so you do have to wonder. It doesn't seem like Hermione's favorite subject, finding soulmates. More like Paravati's and Lavender's but they're in love with Divination. Ooh! That just remind me of another point. She definatly knows her mythology, Rowling. For every culture. Paravati and Padma were Indian twins but I can't remember anything else about them except that (I think) they were goddesses.

Ooh! Mungo's (in different senses) fight snakes? That almost sways me to believing there is some good in St. Mungo's! Thanks, pheo! 'Cept that rules out all those theories about poison. Which to believe....

inky,I looked remedial up too. I belive that the Mungo's witch was talking about the "healing" bit. They're opposite each other but it is interesting that they do use the same term. Of course, now the whole school knows about Harry's "remedial potions" thanks almost in whole to a certain ferret. (I noticed that quote about the extreamly odd ferrets too and I think they've mentioned odd ferrets before somewhere.... Maybe it means Draco's the odd one out in the family. ;) He WILL be ok.)

I loved that bit with the Devil's Snare! That was ingenius (if not evil)! No, Mrs. Weasley didn't bring it in. First off, I think they only way she'd know him is through Aurthur talking about him at home plus she doesn't seem like a Herbology type to me (that's Neville, the new Professor). And it wasn't Harry an co. either. I think it must've been Malfoy. Or at least initionally. Now that you mention hippogriffs, maybe Macnair, Beaky's would-be exicutioner? Whoever it was, they worked for Voldemort or they wouldn't know that he knew he was back and wanted the Prophecy. No, now I think it was Malfoy for the same reason that Snape (theoretically) put the memory charm on Neville - to cover it all up. Malfoy, as we've discussed, has way too much power in Mungo's and in the wizarding world in general (but not from Azkaban! haha!). He could've easily gotten a plant in without trouble saying it was a "Christmas present." But that doesn't explain the calender. Honestly, the only thing that could have made that crime better was sending it under Dumbeldore's name.

Well, if whizbang missed it we can have another group hug? It is cool that we use support and cooperation rather than civialized (usually) debate. It's ok. We all knew we had the best thread on the site! :D :lol: And we can have a tes party! I'll bring some crumpets! Or are cucumber sandwiches better with everyone. (Was it all of you who started that in the Who'll Die in 5 thread? All that virtual chocolate made me hyper!)

Also, the whole thing with Bode seems really strange. It's interesting that he has begun to regain his speech, and then he is killed with the strange plant that is brought in.

I had worked out an interesting (to me, anyway) anagram for Broderick Bode. "kid code robber" It made me think what if a kid (Draco?) had gotten into the ministry (while his Dad distracted the guard?) and had stolen an important code. Hmmmmmm. Far-fetched, I know, but these theories have to start somewhere.

A much more reasonable deduction, silver ink pot, is that repeating the phrase "remedial potions" was done on purpose. Kudos to you, on that observation. Maybe, since Harry and Neville actually passed (I expect) their Potions OWLs, they'll both end up taking remedial potions with Snape after hours. AND, in remedial potions they unravel the mystery of what is keeping Neville's parents speechless and addle-brained. And they discover a remedy.

YIpes! Furry, you're synopses are amazing. I love how you interpret as you go along with a sting of colored lights, opening up new possiblilities to everything. Alternative perceptions. Beyond that, I can't keep up with it all.

I think there are elements of yoga and hindu mythology in the books. But I like the idea that JKR doesn't mess with anyone's religious beliefs, and feel that I shouldn't either.

And the phoenix is a universal symbol. I think the first phoenix legend came from Egypt and was associated with something called the benben stone, the capstone of a pyramid, or the Benben, the capstone of the Great Pyramid. But the phoenix may be older though. JKR sometimes seems to be leading us to Egypt with her ancient magic.

About the devils snare:
A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to the front of the queue now.
"I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed.(OotP pg 486 Am ed.) Could he be involved?

Oh the chocolate. I don't remember where it started? More tea and fudge?

Oooh, silver ink pot, nice one with the "remedial potions" as well as bringing up the issue of the calendar of fancy hippogriffs. Now you've got me suspecting Mundungus again, when I had finally convinced myself that his (hypothetical) passing of information was just small-time stuff, not anything to do with the Death Eaters. But, given that he is a master of disguise as well as a thief, could he not be the old man with the ear trumpet, who nicked a fancy hippogriff calendar from #12 Grimmauld Place, and brought it to St. Mungo's, along with the Devil's Snare (we've seen how easily he accesses contraband materials, including plants)?

And furry: Stubby Boardman was hit on the ear with a turnip. Luna wore radish earrings. But I would still say it is a connection. As for Parvati and Padma: Parvati is the daughter of the Himalaya, and she ends up marrying the ascetic god Siva, winning him by performing all kinds of ascetic penances herself. Padma just means "lotus" though in indian literature is can be used as a name for Lakshmi, the wife of the god Visnu, though usually there is some sort of suffix attached to it, like "Padmavati" or "Padmashri". But Parvati and Laksmi are not twins.

But, as for the snake-fighting Mungo being an indicator that St. Mungo's is good: not necessarily! I think that what is most interesting about the iconography and mythology of snakes is their potential for doing either good or evil. Venom can become antidote. Remember the caduceus, with its entwined serpents, and wings, the ultimate sign of healing. I think that this ties in with Harry's parseltongue abilities: perhaps he can harness serpent power to do good, rather than evil. Snakes are not inherently evil, and some cultures, such as Minoan Crete, clearly thought of them as power for good.

I read somewhere around here, maybe in this thread, that there really is a St Mungo's somewhere in England, but it's not a hospital. I think it's an orphanage? Can't remember exactly.

That old guy seems to be the culprit for bringing the fatal plant to Bode. Now, did he do it deliberately, or did someone else give him the plant and he was an unwitting dupe? Maybe is was Lucius' father, Draco's grandfather?

And Edgar Rice Burroughs is renowned as the father of the mystery novel.

Moonstones seem to be encountered a lot in magical lore. They come in many colors (not just while or grey) and except for the orange/peach/golden ones (those are called sunstones--for obvious reasons) are usually mysterious and interesting. The adularescence--the "moon" phenomenon--seems to be what associated them wth the mysterious magical properties they possess. Star sapphires and rubies are also considered magical. So are precious Cats eyes- chrysoberyl cat's eyes(which are a whole different mineral from tiger eye and it's variants). It's that strange shimmer/eye/light play within the stone that makes it *special*.

Thank you for the welcome furry....

I think there is more than meets they eye going on at St. Mungo's, and if that plant can get in to kill someone, maybe someone is trying to keep the Longbottom's from gaining some of their memory back, like it says at the beginning of this, maybe they know how to defeat or keep Voldemort at bay, or who else may be a DE (perhaps fudge...) and someobody just doesn't want them back, plus, they were very powerful Aurors in the first place.

:clap: good job on the remedial work by the way (once again, I know, I cannot spell)

And Edgar Rice Burroughs is renowned as the father of the mystery novel.



Oops! My mistake!

"... The Moonstone also inaugurated an entirely new genre—detective fiction. In 1928, the poet and critic T. S. Eliot declared The Moonstone "the first, the longest, and the best of the modern English detective novel." Though mystery stories, ..... predate The Moonstone, it was the first novel to hold an undisclosed crime and criminal as its center and to make the detection of both by professionals and amateurs alike, the process of the plot. Many of The Moonstone's elements have since become classic features of the detective novel: the eventual conviction of the least-likely suspect; a bungling investigation led by local police and taken over by a more perceptive, slightly eccentric detective; and the "fair-play" format by which no information is concealed from us by the narrator at any given point."

I wish JKR would do that last part about no info being concealed from us. :evil:
But then we wouldn't be having all this fun. :D

Here are a couple of links to info about the real St. Mungo:
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/plaza/aaj50/mungo.htm
http://www.saintmungo.org/stmungo.html

Some interesting tidbits from them: there is a parallel between Mungo's story and the Perseus story (for the Perseus Evans theorists!) in that both were said to be cast adrift at sea when infants (Mungo's mom was said to be a witch, after she survived punishment for bearing a child out of wedlock). He is said to have as a boy mysteriously set alight a hazel branch when some other boys extinguished a holy fire at the local monastery. He was said to bring to life a dead robin. He is also connected to the motif of the fish and the ring, in this version being the person responsible for the ring being found in the fish.

Interestingly, Glasgow also has a St. Mungo Museum of Religious Life and Art.

So many ideas in the last ten posts! Don't know where to begin!

Phoenixsong: Thanks for the great links about St. Mungo! I had no idea that was a real saint!

Whizbang and Sinistra: Didn't Edgar Rice Burroughs write Tarzan? Another orphaned boy raised by other creatures, just like Mowgli. Literature is full of orphans! Oliver Twist, anybody?

And thanks for pointing out the "old guy" at St. Mungo's. Someone in disguise?

Popkin: I like your anagram! I was able to get "Brick Door Bee" "Bribed Crook" "Bribed Coder OK"

Wouldn't it be great if Neville and Harry were able to learn enough about potions to help Neville's parents? That would rock!

I can't believe I found something new, but I do think the "remedial" repetition has to be intentional!

And finally, I think that if I can look up mythology online from my humble home in the United States, then J. K. Rowling can look up all the mythology she wants to from her castle in Scotland! Plus, she can afford to buy all the books she wants!

Some more stuff:

http://www.st.pauls.edu/studentwork/5awebpage/christie.html

Flamingo is derived from the Latin word flamma, which means flame. The Greeks and Romans associated the flamingo with the phoenix, an incredible bird found in mythology. The ancient Egyptians even worshipped the flamingo as their sacred symbol for the sun god Ra.

Also I remember seeing a nature show about flamingos once. In Africa, they nest in an extremely hot valley, and it looks as if the ground is on fire due to mirages. When the babies hatch, it looks like they are rising out of flames.

Snakes in Celtic Mythology are not that negative:

http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/animalallies.html

Adder, Snake (Nathair): The snake has long been associated with wisdom, reincarnation, and cunning. The poisonous adder of the British Isles has the same reputation. The Druids were known in Wales as Nadredd; in the Fold of the Bards, Taliesin says "I am a wiseman, I am a serpent". The Druids carried an amulet called gloine nathair (serpent glass); although they said that this was formed by snakes, it was probably really an adder stone or blown glass. In the Scottish Highlands, the adder symbolized the Cailleach's power. When you see a snake while on a shamanic journey, prepare to shed something in favor of something greater and better.

I was able to get "Brick Door Bee" "Bribed Crook" "Bribed Coder OK"

I can't believe I found something new, but I do think the "remedial" repetition has to be intentional!

Also I remember seeing a nature show about flamingos once. In Africa, they nest in an extremely hot valley, and it looks as if the ground is on fire due to mirages. When the babies hatch, it looks like they are rising out of flames.

"Bribed coder OK" is interesting because OK could be initials. Do we know of any characters with the initials OK? The other anagrams don't work for me because they don't use all the letters.

It's incredible that, after looking at the St. Mungo Hospital scenes so closely for so long, anyone could find another new thing to look at.

I love that rising out of the flames quote.

Something happened, and the one quote I wanted to pull out of your post didn't come up - the one about the shaman going out on a journey and meeting a snake meaning he would shed something old for something new. I thought immediately of Harry journeying out of the Dursley's neighborhood for the very first time and encountering a snake at the zoo. He certainly did shed an old life for a new one, didn't he?

ooo
Good observations on the snakes and shamans.

Wasn't there an old bent DE at Voldemort's rebirthing? And Bode was working for Voldemort, too, but I don't know if he was under the imperious or not.

Hmmmmm.........

Aha!

"The same goes for you, Nott," said Voldemort quietly as he walked past a stooped figure in Mr. Goyle's shadow.

Popkin: Sorry about the incomplete anagrams! I think I had a fever when I posted those. :whistle:

I was doing some reading last night about L. Frank Baum, the author of The Wizard of Oz. As someone earlier posted, his name is twisted a little in Frank Longbottom. He was in some ways trying to recreate the success of Alice in Wonderland, which he greatly admired. He liked the idea that Alice was a "real" child in a strange world, and that is what he tried to do with Dorothy.

I read one interesting story about Baum and his wife that parallels the story of Neville. One time, Mrs. Baum saw her young son throw a cat out of a two-story window. She was so upset that she grabbed the child and dangled him out the window to show him what it felt like! Makes me think of Michael Jackson on that balcony! :wow: Anyway, that certainly reminded me of Neville's Uncle Algie tossing him out the window to see if he would "bounce."

L. Frank Baum dedicated the Wizard of Oz to his wife, Maud, whom he called "my good friend and comrade." The first copy off the press he gave to his "dear brother, Harry Baum." :huh: Also, Uncle Henry in "Wizard" was named after a relative named Harry. Everyone on earth seems to have an Uncle Harry, except Harry Potter, himself!

I can't find anything else about Baum that would give us any clue about Frank Longbottom. The Land of Oz is split into 4 equal parts, one of which is called "Winkie" like the Crouches' house elf. Baum believed that "magic was science" and his characters were able to study it in order to learn it. He was fascinated by electricity.

NOW, if I could just find some reference to bubble gum in the Wizard of Oz, I would be a happy camper! :whistle: :p :agree:

More on St. Mungo:
http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/info-gstreets1.html


SAINT MUNGO,

The patron saint of Glasgow, was also called Saint Kentigern. His father was Ewan ap Urien, a prince of Strath-Clyde; his mother Thenaw, a daughter of Lot, King of Northumbria. Thenaw was visionary, and dreamed of being a second Virgin Mary; but her paternal parent was too matter of fact, so he sent her to sea in a little boat which was ultimately driven to Culross, where Saint Kentigern was born, and partly educated by Saint Serf, who latterly handed him over to the care of Semanus, Bishop of Orkney, who, after taking the good little boy in charge found him so loving and kindly in disposition that he called him by a pet-name of his own - Mungo, from the Norwegian phrase Mongah (my friend or dear One) and this stuck to him - hence the name Saint Mungo. Kentigern, his first title, means Lord-in-Chief.

THE ARMS OF GLASGOW.

The tree denotes the frozen branch with which, by blowing into a flame, Saint Mungo re-kindled the monastery fire at Culross. The bird is the robin he brought back to life after it had been decapitated. The fish and ring are emblematic of a miracle, by which he restored to Langueth, the wife of King Ridderch of Strathclyde, a love token she had lost; and the bell represents that which he brought from Rome. He died about 601, and for than five centuries after that date Glasgow has no authentic records.

Wow. St Mungo brought a dead bird back to life?


hm.... and bubble gum in Oz. The hot air balloon?

I can't believe we haven't had a discussion on St. Mungo before just now, but I've searched through this whole thread, and he's never come up. I remembered a long discussion, but I think it must have been on the hp Lexicon forum while this one was down for a few days.

Anyway, Kentigern's mother was courted by a nobleman whom she refused to marry because she wanted to dedicate her life to God alone. So, he took her by force - but still did not marry her - and she became pregnant. Her father was scandalized and set her adrift on a boat, banishing and disowning her. The boat landed near a monastery, where Kentigern was born. A monk, attending at his birth, immediately nicknamed the baby "Mungo" or, as silver ink pot pointed out, "Dear One". So, although it was his legal name, he was never known as "Kentigern", but always as "Mungo".

That's pretty much all I can remember reading about him - and the healing a bird thing, which is why he's associated with healing. There was a very good article on line at the website maintained by St. Mungo's Catholic Church in the UK. Sorry, I don't have the link just now.

Anyway, I think the previous discussion about St Mungo might have been in what is now the "almighty all inclusive (or whatever) names and their meanings" thread. I know I read about him somewhere around here and that there is a St Mungo's now, but it's not a hospital.

The fact that he is the patron saint of Glasgow is interesting.

I'm still on Alice from Wonderland and Frank from Oz. It almost describes their current states, both dreaming.
Hmmmmmmmm.............

Wonderland and Oz in St Mungo's.
Neville's parents.
Aurors.
Gum wrappers.
Drooble's Best Blowing Gum.

The only thing that comes to me is that Alice and Dorothy do both wake up.

YIpes! Furry, you're synopses are amazing. I love how you interpret as you go along with a sting of colored lights, opening up new possiblilities to everything. Alternative perceptions. Beyond that, I can't keep up with it all.

Er... thanks, whiz. I'm not sure how much of that I understood but I think it was a compliment.

Egypt? Ancient magic? Gringotts? Bill? Tomb bugs? Sounds like puzzle pieces might be falling back on the table. Why are we talking about pheonixes? My little brain is so spacy sometimes. :blush: By the way, anyone seen Dedalus? He hasn't been around here in a while. And flamingos? Where can we fit those in? Ah, well, we have REAL pheonixes, why settle for imitations?

Dung? Mess with Bode? Nah, not him. I like Dung. He may be a bit... ah... of an "interesting" charecter but I don't think he'd do anything like that. You've been listening to Mrs. Weasley too much, pheo. I know he may have missed a few lessons, but he has got a background! I still think that maybe the "old man" at the welcome witch's desk was a friend. I don't know... I can't bring myself to see that somehow. But I'm almost positive it wasn't anything to do with any Order member.

From Sinistra's mention of magical rocks I found something that I'm not sure has any relevance but hey. So are precious Cats eyes- chrysoberyl cat's eyes(which are a whole different mineral from tiger eye and it's variants). It's that strange shimmer/eye/light play within the stone that makes it *special*. How are Voldemort's eyes always described? Cat-like pupils I believe is the term. Seem odd to anyone else? We know Rowling sees a lot of importance in the eyes (Harry's/his mother's, where you see someone fighting the Imperious....). Just a thought.

Pop, interesting with the shamen and the snake (boa constrictor). I'll have to ponder that one and see what else might pop into my brain. Shedding old for new... thankssss amigo!

Those are some very interesting connections to Oz and Alice and Harry Potter. It does seem strange that both boys were dangled out a window (though I doubt Braum's child would've bounced if his wife had been offered a lemon merangue pie) AND that he adored Alice. As far as the bubble gum, like whizbang mentioned, the hot air balloon? Same basic concept. Except instead of Voldemort getting into a basket and starting up a fire-blowing-thingy (it's late, all right!) and floating away of his own free will, Neville traps him inside a bubble gum bubble and he floats up and up and hits a helicopter. But, we like people who wake up. :)

Just to bring up a point, I was rereading the "Lost Prophecy" chapter today. I really think it was talking about Neville. Otherwise, why should there be a second child involved at all? Just seems a little odd. Unless it's so that Harry can push Neville away even further because he thinks it's unfair that Voldemort "marked" him rather than Nev. :frown: Poor, Nev. I'd hurt Harry if he did that to him. He suffers enough.

The only thing that comes to me is that Alice and Dorothy do both wake up.
You know, that's true. I think it's safe to assume that Alice Longbottom will wake up, too. I don't know about Frank, though. Maybe there will be hints in Alice Longbottoms lengthy waking dream that will help Frank to be able to break out as well.

Did anyone notice that the only patient on St. Mungos closed ward that can talk is Gilderoy Lockhart? Is there a connection there?

Did anyone notice that the only patient on St. Mungos closed ward that can talk is Gilderoy Lockhart? Is there a connection there?

Ugh. One of my all-time LEAST favorite characters!! There probably is. I couldn't believe he popped up again. There have been plenty of hints that St. Mungo's is "dirty" and not above bribes and the like. Could old smiling G be part of something bigger? He wasn't written in just to annoy me, of that I am certain.

You guys have been very busy while I was tied up with work!! Gum. Gilderoy. Oz, Wonderland and the Longbottoms. St. Mungo is full of secrets!

And flamingos? Where can we fit those in? Ah, well, we have REAL pheonixes, why settle for imitations?Ahh, but we have real flamingos:
...whereas poor Hannah Abbott lost her head completely at the next table and somehow managed to multiply her ferret into a flock of flamingos, causing the examination to be halted for ten minutes while the birds were captured and carried out of the Hall.And a ferret, too.

Well veryn interesting point but i have no idea... and no opinion i guess well have to wait till the 6th and 7th book to find out

:clap: Yes, Phoenixsong! You found the flamingos! I remembered that too! I wonder what sort of clue Rowling is giving us with that. Perhaps that the one ferret is transformed into an entire flock of flamingos. Flamingo/Phoenix. Maybe that this time, the bad guys (ferrets) are outnumbered by the Order of the Phoenix?

In Alice in Wonderland, in Chapter 8, "The Queens Croquet Ground," flamingos are used as croquet mallets and the balls are hedgehogs. Of course, the creatures don't enjoy being used this way and try to escape. Then the Cheshire cat's head appears hanging in the air, and the Red Queen screams "off with his head." But the executioner refuses to behead something without a body. That reminds me of the rescue of Buckbeak in PoA, and also the scene in which Harry's head appears in Hogsmeade and scares Malfoy.

When I read the bit about Alice handing Neville a wrapper, it struck me as something important, because it wasn't just "a" wrapper, it was specifically "Droobles Best Blowing Gum," and she had done it often (Not a throw-away line, so to speak).

Alice may be becoming slightly lucid. It seems that she is giving her son the same message over and over, hoping he will understand. People who are completely addled tend to offer different random things (bedpan, sir?) rather than the same thing repeatedly. Which is not to say she's "all better" or ever will be, just that she has a complete thought in there somewhere.

Since we know that chewing Droobles gum fills a room with "bluebell" bubbles that last for days, one thing is fairly certain - the gum is not being chewed inside the hospital (unless they're using the bubbles to put candles in, down in the lobby!), and definitely not in the closed ward. Either she's stuffing the gum down a hole (great, now I'm picturing those idiotic PopTart commercials), or she never actually had the gum, only the wrapper. Oooh, maybe she's putting gum in the lock and sneaking out of the ward at night! OK, back on track....

Possible theory: someone with a gum habit visits the closed ward regularly, and Alice is somehow nicking the wrappers to show Neville. Either she wants him to figure out who that person is, or she wants him to understand something about the wrapper/gum/manufacturer. Maybe it's as simple as "Go see Drooble," maybe it's something about the bubbles or the ingredients. Maybe she wants him to make a wrapper chain and strangle Bellatrix with it! YAY!!! ahem. Also, it was mentioned in another thread that blue is the color of protection.

So anyway, do we know anybody who chews a lot of gum? Somebody who shouldn't be turning up in the "incurable" ward? I like that observation (don't know who suggested) that Nott could be the stooped old man who was visiting Bode. Maybe Nott is keeping tabs on all of them.

It could be argued that Alice was thinking of the room full of prophecy bubbles, but Harry's prophecy was found/destroyed in the same book, and this is still a loose end, so there must be something else....

Applause and whistles for the person who dug up Scott's "Letters on Demonology!" JKR MUST have used this for a source, what with the names Lockhart and Cruickshanks popping up in there. And all this Alice in Wonderland stuff - amazing!

I feel like I have been incoherent, but that's what happens when two toddlers are screaming at each other in the background.

Maybe she wants him to make a wrapper chain and strangle Bellatrix with it! YAY!!! ahem. Also, it was mentioned in another thread that blue is the color of protection.

I like this theory! We know you can make jewelry from them and they're pretty strong, or at least look it. I haven't eaten enough gum to know. But, sadly, we're all just stuck in a neverending dream of a ways to kill Bellatrix. Rats! I woke up! But it was such a good dream! Btw, welcome to the thread, Red Herring, I don't think I've seen you around here before.

Blue is the color of protetion? Interesting. No one picked up on that yet. hmmmm... So have we basically, have we decided that, whatever else the gum is, it's a good thing? The ancient meaning of the bluebell plant is loyalty? I still like the "Go see Drooble" theory. Oh well, guess I'm stubbron.

Houston, we have flamingos! And ferrets too! (Funny how those pop up everywhere, isn't it?) I'd entirely forgotten that bit. Another hint that Draco'll be alright and eventually join the Order? *looks hopeful* Should I shut up now? Okay, fine.

You know, I think Neville needs to get a cat. Than he can name it Dinah and every peice of our twisted puzzle would fall into place. Then again, he doesn't really strike me as a cat person. What kind of animal will give you a confidence boost? Oh! I know! I'm gonna buy Neville a horse and teach him to ride it. :) After I get one for myself of course. :sigh: It'll be an eons long wait then.

I'm reading the chapter "The White Rabbit Send in a Little Bill." Are there any other Bill's besides Bill Weasley? Someone who everyone blames everything upon and who has to do everything for everyone?

Right, I forgot some stuff. Poor memory. Sorry. Anyway, I can't think of anyone at all who eats excessive amounts of bubblegum? I suppose someone out there in the wide wizarding world is a gum addict but I don't think we've met them yet. We'd remember if someone were forever chewing his/her gum noisily and driving everyone crazy. Though according to "50 Ways to Annoy Lord Voldemort" off mugglenet, that's one of the ways to annoy Lord Voldemort - answer everyone question with a large bubble or many in quick succession so that the last one pops all over the place. tehehee.

I still can't believe the old man at Mungo's visting Bode was Nott, or indeed anyone at all connected with the plant. Notice that he comes in the visit before the plant is placed in the ward? Besides, if he were really that old, do you think Voldemort would have any use for him. If he can barely hear, what else can he barely do? And how long do you think he'd hold out under the Cruciatus Curse? Was it Nott or Avery who told Voldemort Bode would be able to get the prophecy - wrongly? Lucius said "everyone" knew that only people who a prophecy is made about can retrieve it, didn't he? Apparently, not everyone.

Blue is the color of protetion? Interesting. No one picked up on that yet. hmmmm... So have we basically, have we decided that, whatever else the gum is, it's a good thing? The ancient meaning of the bluebell plant is loyalty? I still like the "Go see Drooble" theory.

I too like the notion that it's not the bubbles themselves, but rather, someone connected to the gum. Maybe one of the DEs we don't know works at Droobles. Maybe the gum addict is the key, and we'll know him/her when we meet him/her in the next book...

As for Nott, since we know Neville has a grandmother, why couldn't someone else have a grandparent? Maybe the old man in question is Mr. Nott, but the very senior version. We met two Crouchs, so why not Notts? He wouldn't have to be a DE, but his son could be using him somehow...

Possible theory: someone with a gum habit visits the closed ward regularly, and Alice is somehow nicking the wrappers to show Neville. Either she wants him to figure out who that person is, ...

:welcome: Red Herring! Let's have a party! I'll get the Ben and Jerry's. Red Herring should see us at our best.;)

Anyway, that theory is new to me and it makes sense. My first thought was that our gum chewer is probably a teenage girl. (I know. Shoot me. :no: )

How are the toddlers? I understand completely. But enjoy them while they're small. Before you know it, they'll be commandeering the computer and needing rides to strange places. (You want to go to Borders? For a book party? In a wizard costume? At midnight?! ..... :huh: Okay.)

whoah. I'm new to this forum (just stumbled upon it yesterday and feel like I've hit a gold mine) and this is the first thread I've read... I haven't even been able to read it all the way through. 13 pages?!

Anyway -

I've only read Book 5 once, and it was in the middle of frenetic packing for an out of state move. I'm re-reading it right now, but haven't reached the St. Mungo part yet. I'm hoping someone can help me with a couple questions in this area:
* does Rowling ever specifically tell us who sent the poisonous plant, or is there just a conjecture as to the sender? Was it just sent to the hospital, or to the Longbottoms?

* Gum wrapper: I remember that scene from the book. It broke my heart. I thought that it was only to show how pitiful Alice Longbottom is (you see that she is a kind woman, that she knows the situation entails giving presents - but that's as far as it goes) and Neville's pocketing of the gift I assumed was simply a son's desperate clutching at something his Mother gave him. _However,_ Rowling has pulled the wool over my eyes so many times I'm rather disgruntled and often second guessing her. :-) Although I don't think there's much in the theory of the gum wrapper holding messages, this thread has caused me to rethink a couple other areas, namely:
- I'd forgotten that Lucius Malfoy was a big-time contributor to St. Mungo's. Yuk. Definitely a bad apple in there somewhere.
- I've only read books 3-5 (*ducks any rotten tomatoes*) and I don't remember hearing specifically _why_ the Longbottoms were cursed. It's been quoted on this thread that DE's went to them to find out where LV was, and when they didn't tell the curse was put on 'em. This strikes me as odd. If they knew something that the DE's wanted then surely putting them under the Cruciatus curse was not too bright.

I'm 100% sure we'll see a lot more of Neville in the next two books. Lots of development, and a crucial role towards the end.

As for Nott, since we know Neville has a grandmother, why couldn't someone else have a grandparent? Maybe the old man in question is Mr. Nott, but the very senior version. We met two Crouchs, so why not Notts? He wouldn't have to be a DE, but his son could be using him somehow...

Or.... maybe nott. Hee!

Thanks for the friendly welcome, furry & whizbang! I :love: Ben & Jerry's. I'll bring hot homemade brownies to go with (a double batch, since the 3 year old ate a third of the batter).

And Elanor, it wasn't said where the plant came from. The nurse just came in and put it on Bode's bedside table, exclaiming over what a nice gesture it was. (Shyah!)

Yeah, 13 pages is a bit, but I make a point of reading the whole thread anyway, so I know I'm not repeating what someone else has already said. Granted, I've only managed to post once so far. I spent the week reading threads like this and the 44-page prophecy thread in my brief moments of freedom. (Well, my real second post got evanescoed. I'll get that Snape!)

How do I make this stupid mozilla cut and paste?

Possible theory: someone with a gum habit visits the closed ward regularly, and Alice is somehow nicking the wrappers to show Neville. Either she wants him to figure out who that person is, or she wants him to understand something about the wrapper/gum/manufacturer. Maybe it's as simple as "Go see Drooble," maybe it's something about the bubbles or the ingredients. Maybe she wants him to make a wrapper chain and strangle Bellatrix with it! YAY!!! ahem.

Great Post Red Herring - and absolutely coherent to me! I really love the idea that she is perhaps seeing someone chewing gum, and we will all say "Bingo" when that person turns up in the next book.

Enjoy your toddlers even if they are screaming! Even my youngest is too big to sit in my lap anymore.

:welcome: Welcome to Red Herring and Elanor!

Whizbang: I'll bring chocolate syrup and whipped cream! :p

Well, I don't have time to read back through the entire thread, but I don't think this has been posted before. Just found it tonight in Chamber of Secrets - another bubble reference. This starts in the hallway, Harry has just gotten a valentine supposedly from Ginny, his bag spills open and red ink goes everywhere, Malfoy grabs Riddle's Diary, Percy tries to take it, then Harry uses "Expelliarmus" to get it back, and Ron catches it in midair:

CoS,Chapter 13, page 239, American:

"Harry noticed something rather odd about Riddle's diary. All his other books were drenched in scarlet ink. The diary, however, was as clean as it had been before the ink bottle had smashed all over it. He tried to point this out to Ron, but Ron was having trouble with his wand again; large purple bubbles were blossoming out of the end, and he wasn't much interested in anything else."

What I wondered when I read this carefully was whether the trouble with the wand is due to Ron touching the Diary? I think the "clean" diary reminds me of the memory charm that wipes out your past memories. Interesting that Rowling draws attention to the "clean" diary, then to Ron's wand - the same wand that later in the book wipes out Lockhart's memory. Hmmmm. Like a "clean slate."

And for some reason what just popped into my mind was the Pensieve scene in OotP, when James makes soap bubbles come out of Snape's mouth after he starts cursing, in effect "washing out" his mouth.

After Lockhart's memory is destroyed, on page 324, CoS, it says, "Gilderoy Lockhart was sitting there humming placidly to himself." The humming certainly is similar to Alice Longbottom. Has her memory been tampered with? Of course, she cannot speak, and Lockhart can. There just seems to be more to the Longbottom story than the Cruciatus curse. :rolleyes:

Welcome, Red Herring and Elanor!

Red Herring: your simple conjecture regarding the gum wrappers is perhaps the most compelling I've heard, especially since there aren't bubble's floating around St. Mungo's, other than the lights. Perhaps on his or her last visit, this gum-chewer delivered the plant for Bode. But I'm quite certain that we have never encountered a gum-chewing character, so it must be someone we've not yet met. Or someone we've just not seen chewing gum, I suppose. The only two we have met who might be gum chewers would be Ludo Bagman and Rita Skeeter. I don't think Rita is a DE, but I do think Ludo may be. Otherwise, someone new, and we will certainly recognize him or her when he or she shows up!

Just a thought... could it be a reference to the blue candle lights in the Department of Mysteries? And perhaps the gum-chewer is employed there?

About Nott: Although he was a stooping figure; notice these quotes:

A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to the front of the queue now.
"I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed.
...
"And look, Broderick, you've been sent a pot plant and a lovly calendar with different fancy Hippogriff for each month"
...
"Oh come on, Ron!" said Hermione shakily "I dont think anyone could put Devil's Snare in a pot and not realise it tries to kill whoever touches it? This - this was a murder...a clever murder, as well...if the plant was sent anonymously, how's anyone ever going to find out who did it?"

The wizard was there at least a WEEK before, to visit Bode; the potted plant was only given to him at Christmas.
Reguardless of that, I doubt it would be important that he did it, unless it somehow links in with the Longbottoms.

:welcome: Elanor. Well, that settles it. We will have a welcome-to-the-thread party! :D I stole some tarts that we could eat? No, no mention of who sent the plant. But it was adressed to Broderick Bode who was currently sharing the ward with the Longbottoms. He had been Imperioused into trying to remove the Prophecy for Voldemort by Lucius Malfoy. The Longbottoms were tortured by Bella and co. for information regarding the whereabouts of their exiled master, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. (Can you tell I've read that courtroom scene over and over again?)

Btw, I DID come up with someone who chews a lot of gum, though I doubt this is our helpful charecter that we want. Peeves the Poltergeist chews gum often, and does naughty things with them. Ludo and Rita chew gum, pheo? Where's it say that? And Ludo was never accused of any dark activity since he was caught passing information to Rookwood (an old friend of his dads's). Of course, one wonders where a Quidditch player got such information? hmmmm....

I found some interesting quotes from Alice in Wonderland too. Thought I'd share like a good little first-grader.

"If everbody minded their own business," the Duchess said, in a hoarse growl, "the world would go a good deal faster than it does."
"Which would not be an advantage," said Alice, who felt very glad to get an opportunity of showing off a little of her knowledge. "Just think what work it would make with the day and night! You see the earth takes twenty-four hours to turn round on its axis-"
"Talking of axes," said the Duchess, "chop off her head!" -the Pig and the Pepper

The Longbottoms were tortured because 1) they were Aurors, much interfering in other DE's businesses, 2) because they knew information the DEs didn't, obviously through some digging. And then, Bella and co. went and chopped off their heads, so to speak.

And the Cheshire-Cat in the same chapter....

"But I don't want to be among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

Alice is mad... Alice is mad. Seeing connections? And I truly doubt the Longbottoms realize that they are as they are.

One last one, from Advice from a Caterpillar.

Alice is arguing with a pigeon who claims that she is a serpent. Going back to our turnip conversation and the worms in the ears - perhaps Alice L is being told by evil little "worms" who speak in her head that she's a serpent - symbolistic of Voldemort, Slytherin, Dark wizards or witches... - too. Just a few thoughts to throw about. I thought they might be useful.

Anyway, time for that tea-party we talked about. *pulls out swiped tarts* Shhhh... Don't tell the Queen or she'll have me beheaded. Btw, flobberworms, Hpmons?

furry: Oh, dear, I meant that Ludo or Rita were the only characters I could think of who might be gum-chewers, Rita because she seems so brassy and tacky, Ludo, I don't know, seemed like a sporty kind of thing. Gum chewing as a habit just seems so vulgar (apologies to any gum chewers out there!), and I couldn't really think of anyone else who might be so inclined. But you are right to bring up Peeves, though are there more Peeves and gum connections other than the famous "Waddiwasi" incident? But I do hope that Neville remembers the Waddiwasi spell when he comes face-to-face with the elusive gum chewer!

And the Cheshire-Cat in the same chapter....

"But I don't want to be among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
This quote raised an eyebrow for me, too. It made me think that Frank and Alice may have gone "mad" after arriving at St. Mungo's, and not before. They may have gone in unconscious, and been shipped to the closed ward for "special treatment" before their real conditions were even known.

Alice is arguing with a pigeon who claims that she is a serpent. Going back to our turnip conversation and the worms in the ears - perhaps Alice L is being told by evil little "worms" who speak in her head that she's a serpent - symbolistic of Voldemort, Slytherin, Dark wizards or witches... - too. Just a few thoughts to throw about. I thought they might be useful.
Ok, the thing about the fact Alice Longbottom and Alice in Wonderland were similar was acceptable...But in my opinion you are going too far...Just my opinion!

Btw, flobberworms, Hpmons?

yes...flobberworms...I am sane you know...

It made me think that Frank and Alice may have gone "mad" after arriving at St. Mungo's, and not before. They may have gone in unconscious, and been shipped to the closed ward for "special treatment" before their real conditions were even known.
Intersting point...Its possible...

Besides the Wadsiwadsi incident? Well, I have a vauge recollection of Peevsy blowing bubbles in one of the teachers faces in response to a question but I could be wrong. :shrug: He just seems the person that I've connected gum with. But vulgar might be a bit of strong word, don't you think? :frown: I, personally, don't chew gum either but I'll accept a peice whenever I'm offered. Maybe it's just the rebel in me saying "I'll chew gum if I want to, and there's nothing the school can do about it."

hmmm... interesting.... You think they became insane afterward, Pop? Well, that would be a development and certainly a clue as to the kind of "treatment" Mungo's offers. Just clear one thing up for me, if you'd be so kind - Are you saying that they were unconcious when they were brought in and when they awoke the Healers realized how extensive the torture was, or that they went insane because they came to St. Mungo's? Just trying to get things sorted. ;)

With the serpent quote, I don't know, just struck me as a possibilty. I guess I'm searching for the dot to connect the turnip to. I think that theory's got me all confuzzled.

Can I purpose a random theory which really hasn't anything to do with bubblegum? Please? Good. Everyone remember Ted the weatherman from SS/PS? The one who was saying how very mysterious all the shooting stars and daytime owl sightings were? Well, I was thinking about him the other day (trying to come up with what his last name could possibly be) and guess what I remembered! Mr. Tonks is named Ted! Think it's possible? I've never met a wizard posing as a Muggle weatherman before but I suppose he could if he wanted to. He'd have his own ways of making sure he predicted right. Just a thought. What do you think?

hmmm... interesting.... You think they became insane afterward, Pop? Well, that would be a development and certainly a clue as to the kind of "treatment" Mungo's offers. Just clear one thing up for me, if you'd be so kind - Are you saying that they were unconcious when they were brought in and when they awoke the Healers realized how extensive the torture was, or that they went insane because they came to St. Mungo's? Just trying to get things sorted. ;)

Everyone remember Ted the weatherman from SS/PS? The one who was saying how very mysterious all the shooting stars and daytime owl sightings were? Well, I was thinking about him the other day (trying to come up with what his last name could possibly be) and guess what I remembered! Mr. Tonks is named Ted! Think it's possible? I've never met a wizard posing as a Muggle weatherman before but I suppose he could if he wanted to.

It isn't really a serious theory, but I'm sure underhanded, devious, and absolutely devilish things are going on at St. Mungo's. So, it's possible that the Longbottoms went into the hospital with very curable injuries. Then they could have been shipped to the long term care facility before they came to. There they could have been drugged, made to look insane, and kept quiet.

I also think its possible, likely even, that Ted the weatherman and Ted Tonks are the same person. I don't think Nymphadora Tonks ever says whether her dad is a muggle born wizard or a muggle. He could be a regular muggle weatherman. But that's pretty far off topic.

Gum Chewers: Isn't Millicent Bullstrode a gum chewer? What about Lavendar and Parvati? Don't they chew gum? While these student's cannot really be implicated as possibly being connected to the Longbottoms, maybe their parents could be.

Here's a post that I made over in the "Alice Longbottom in Wonderland" thread, moved over here because Popkin requested it. :)

---

While doing research on alchemy, I found an interesting fact that might or might not tie into this subject. I was looking into Paracelsus, (from the chocolate wizard card), and noticed that he introduced Laudanum, (a mixture of opium, alcohol, and sugar), to western medicine. It became the number one drug of choice in the west, as it was cheaper to buy than alcohol. This was because it was considered a medicine, and not an alcholic beverage, and wasn't subject to taxation.

Paracelsus himself was a mysterious guy, and I have to wonder if, in the HP world, he wasn't the dark lord of his time. While many sang his praises as a physician, (some even claimed that he once raised someone from the dead), his "bedside manner" left something to be desired. He was known for being incredibly arrogant, argumentative, greedy...an all-around jerk. He was kicked out of school for his work with necromancy, (talking to the dead), and later claimed to have an army of demons under his command. Most of his life was spent wandering, making enemies where ever he went through his attitudes and actions. Even his death is a bit of a mystery, because some claim he died of natural causes, others say he died as a result of wounds he recieved in an attack by his enemies.

So, is Alice Longbottom being kept "insane" with something like Laudanum, by the orders of Voldemort? I don't know for sure, but it looks like it could be a possibility. :)

---

For the record, though, I'm still debating on just how "evil" Paracelsus could have been, because there are so many conflicting sites about him. Was he a misunderstood genius, who happened to imbibe in his own remedy and suffered from delusions, or was he as nasty as some made him out to be? Here's one account of his life:

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/socialeccltheology/MemoirsofPopularDelusionsV3/chap26.html

I also think its possible, likely even, that Ted the weatherman and Ted Tonks are the same person. I don't think Nymphadora Tonks ever says whether her dad is a muggle born wizard or a muggle. He could be a regular muggle weatherman. But that's pretty far off topic.
Sirius says that his cousin Andromeda married a Muggle-born, Ted Tonks. It's on pg 113 of Am Ed, OotP.

I liked this idea, until I started rereading PoA and the guy in the Leaky Cauldron is called Tom. So I guess some names do get reused. But, Tonk's dad could still be the weatherman. The fact that he commented on the activities is maybe the clue.

The fact that he commented on the activities is maybe the clue.

Or maybe not. You know how many Ted's there are in the world. You know how big a coincidence it would be? And you know how little JKR puts in coincidences?

Anyway, we're off topic. Let's get back to Neville, Voldemort, and a LOT - oh, yes, a LOT, of gum.

Iggie: Great post about Paracelsis and laudenum. That was definitely a drug of choice in the 19th century. I think I am going to go back to the "medicinal" aspects of this story and see if I can find some other mentions of potions used in OotP or in association with Neville. Those are clues, I think, to what happened to his parents.

About the "Ted Tonks" thing. I think Whizbang is right and TV Ted may be Tonks father. There is a little "wink" about this in OotP when the Dursley's find out that, heaven forbid, Harry wants to watch the news. Vernon says, "your lot don't get on our news," and Harry says, "That's all you know." Well, it would be funny if Ted really was on the news!

:scared: :whistle: :rolleyes:

Well, for some reason, I just realized all these replies had been made, so I feel it's my duty to answer every one. :lol:

silver ink pot - I couldn't make anything out of Ron's purple bubbles or Snape's *shut yo mouth!* bubbles. I know there's a good joke in there somewhere, but I can't even come up with it. I tried! Let's see, another bubble instance that I can think of is the "bubblehead charm" used by Fleur and Cedric in GOF. (Rats! I so should have picked "bubblehead" for my username!)


Red Herring: your simple conjecture regarding the gum wrappers is perhaps the most compelling I've heard, especially since there aren't bubble's floating around St. Mungo's, other than the lights.

Thanks! :blush:
I can see Ludo going around smacking gum with his mouth wide open, he's such a goofball - so much that I think he's fishy. But Skeeter... seems like we would have known, since we saw her several times. Furry's right - Peeves is about the only... erm, individual - whom we've seen with gum. (I :love: the "waddiwasi" charm - was that real Latin or just a pun?) Can't think of any reason for Peeves to visit, though.
Okay, so Popkin can think of 3 schoolgirls who nosh gum all the time. Could indicate it's a woman... if this person even exists!

Hpmons - Well, the "old stooped man" is the only person who we know visited Bode, but that's not saying much, I guess. The person who sent the Devil's snare may have never been in St. Mungo's. But a calendar of "fancy hippogriffs" - what's up with that??

furry - the AIW quotes didn't do much for me either. Well, the second one, but only because I totally identify with it! Sure, there are similarities between the Alice's, but I'm not seeing a parallel... paralell? Parallell. Nope. Moving on...

OK, so we have Ben & Jerry's (assorted varieties) with brownies, chocolate syrup and whipped cream, and now tarts? Quick, pass me a carrot stick before my heart stops! :elaugh:

And speaking of chewing gum, it's really bad for your jaws. At least, it is if you have TMJ. It probably helped to cause mine. Yowch!

Hmm, and don't forget that the "bubblehead" charm comes up again in OotP: Dungbombs and Stinkpellets were dropped so frequently in the corridors that it became the new fashion for students to perform Bubble-Head Charms on themselves before leaving lessons, which ensured them a supply of fresh clean air, even though it gave them all the peculiar appearance of wearing upside-down goldfish bowls on their heads.
Just thought I'd add that to the bubble tally!

Paracelsus himself was a mysterious guy, and I have to wonder if, in the HP world, he wasn't the dark lord of his time. While many sang his praises as a physician, (some even claimed that he once raised someone from the dead), his "bedside manner" left something to be desired. He was known for being incredibly arrogant, argumentative, greedy...an all-around jerk. He was kicked out of school for his work with necromancy, (talking to the dead), and later claimed to have an army of demons under his command. Most of his life was spent wandering, making enemies where ever he went through his attitudes and actions. Even his death is a bit of a mystery, because some claim he died of natural causes, others say he died as a result of wounds he recieved in an attack by his enemies.

hehe. Thanks, Iggie. For the record, this Paracelsus (whose name I'm sure I've heard somewhere before... but can't remember where) sounds a bit like our dear Phineas. Very interesting. I'll have to check out the site.

hmmm... I seem to hae struck something with the two Teds. And just to touch, hesdeaddealwithit, there really aren't that many minor details Rowling throws our way that don't have signifigance. *begins ticking off on her fingers while passing Red a platter of healthy, non-heart-stoping carrot sticks*

I forgot about the bubblehead charm too. There are many bubbles aren't there.... I found the quote that confused me. When Harry first meets Peeves (in OotP - he's stomping away to McGonagall with a note in his hand from dear professor Umb*tch), he asks what's wrong and it mentions that he "blows a rasberry." He was either trying (poorly) to imitate a snake or, like I pictured, a rasberry bubble. Help?

I think a raspberry is a loud and offensive noise.

"Blowing a raspberry" is when you stick out your tongue and blow. So that when Peeves says "speaking in tongues" while blowing a raspberry, he has just stuck out his tongue, even though he is also referring to Harry's parseltongue abilities.

Thanks, Phoenix... I wasn't at all sure how you did it. I just remember the obnoxious sound.