Neville, Voldemort, and a LOT of gum [Archive] - Page 3

whizbang121

September 20th, 2003, 6:36 am

I can see Ludo going around smacking gum with his mouth wide open, he's such a goofball - so much that I think he's fishy. But Skeeter... seems like we would have known, since we saw her several times. Okay, so Popkin can think of 3 schoolgirls who nosh gum all the time. Could indicate it's a woman... if this person even exists!
Good point. We're just guessing at this one.

Hpmons - Well, the "old stooped man" is the only person who we know visited Bode, but that's not saying much, I guess. The person who sent the Devil's snare may have never been in St. Mungo's. But a calendar of "fancy hippogriffs" - what's up with that??
It only mentions that the old man (Nott?) has an ear trumpet. Nothing about a plant or calendar. drat. Maybe he was just getting Bode's room number or something?

OK, so we have Ben & Jerry's (assorted varieties) with brownies, chocolate syrup and whipped cream, and now tarts? Quick, pass me a carrot stick before my heart stops! :elaugh:

It's okay. Virtual junk food can't really hurt you. I checked. That's why I eat so much of it. ;) hummus?

And speaking of chewing gum, it's really bad for your jaws. At least, it is if you have TMJ. It probably helped to cause mine. Yowch!
Yipes! Doesn't sound easy to live with.

Paracelsus makes Isaac Newton look like a great choice for a dinner partner. :elaugh:
And just to touch, hesdeaddealwithit, there really aren't that many minor details Rowling throws our way that don't have signifigance.
This is an important point. It's more likely that the innkeeper's name is Tom for some significant reason, than that Ted the newsman isn't Ted Tonks. ?? :huh:
I don't know what that means .... yet. ummmm......

Hmmm.... Could Narcissa be our gum chewer? Maybe she's a volunteer in the ward. Or maybe Tonks is our weak link in the chain. :eyebrows:

silver ink pot

September 20th, 2003, 7:48 am

Popkin: I find the whole "Podmore the Traitor" possiblity quite interesting. I've been doing some research on the name and it is associated with poisonous plants and "pods"!

Also, there was someone named Podmore who was friends with one of JKR's favorite authors, E. Nesbit, who wrote the Railway Children, and many other books.

Here is some information about the name Podmore. Notice the ghost who leads the Headless Hunt is related to Sturgis, with the "Delaney" part of his name associated with the word "Black." This is from the website "Akashic Record."

http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/d.html#delaney-podmore

Delaney-Podmore, Sir Patrick (CoS ch. 8): The head of the Headless Hunt. Etym: Delaney may be from a French root meaning "wool" or "alder grove", or the Gaelic patronymic Ó Dubhshláine, composed of the elements dubh "black" + slán "challenge, defiance".

Podmore is of uncertain origin, possibly from Middle English pod or pad "frog" + more "fen, marsh".

Laburnum Gardens (OotP ch. 14): The street in Clapham where Sturgis Podmore lives. Etym: Laburnum is a genus of ornamental but poisonous trees and shrubs.

One name for Laburnam is Golden Chain Tree and it is very poisonous.

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/l/labrun02.html

Laburnum trees should not be allowed to overhang a field used as a pasture, for when cattle and horses have browsed on the foliage and pods, the results have proved deadly. Symptoms of poisoning by Laburnum root or seeds are intense sleepiness, vomiting, convulsive movements, coma, slight frothing atthe mouth and unequally dilated pupils. In some cases, diarrhoea is very severe and at times the convulsions are markedly tetanic.

Next, there is Edith Nesbit, or E. Nesbit, is a children's writer often mentioned by J. K. Rowling. Some of her children's books are filled with Potter-like details. Her works can be read here:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/search?author=nesbit&amode=words&title=&tmode=words

She and her husband were friends of a man named Frank Podmore.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TUpodmore.htm

Frank Podmore was born at Elstree, Hertfordshire, on 5th February
1856. The son of Rev. Thompson Podmore, the Headmaster of Eastbourne College, Frank was educated at Haileybury and Pembroke College, Oxford, where he graduated with a first in natural science in 1877.

As an undergraduate Podmore developed an interest in spiritualism and carried out research into psychic phenomena. He joined the Society for Psychical Research and although he eventually rejected spiritualism, he did support the idea of extra-sensory perception.

In October, 1883 Podmore and his friend, Edward Pease joined a socialist debating group established by Edith Nesbit and Hubert Bland. It was Podmore who suggested that the group should be named after the Roman General, Quintus Fabius Maximus, who advocated the weakening the opposition by harassing operations rather than becoming involved in pitched battles. In January 1884 the group became known as the Fabian Society. Podmore's home, 14 Dean's Yard, Westminster, became the official headquarters of the organisation.

Well, I think this is long enough! :p

rotsiepots

September 20th, 2003, 7:51 am

Hpmons - Well, the "old stooped man" is the only person who we know visited Bode, but that's not saying much, I guess. The person who sent the Devil's snare may have never been in St. Mungo's. But a calendar of "fancy hippogriffs" - what's up with that??

Sounds suspiciously Macnair, if you ask me. I think it's quite likely that the calendar was Macnair's "calling card". Bode did receive it at the same time as the plant, so I'd say there's a connection there.

Back on topic, do we know what type of bubblegum wrapper Mrs Longbottom gives Neville? Is there a connection between Honeydukes (where Drooble's Best Blowing Gum) is sold and the Longbottoms?

Tis a mystery.

whizbang121

September 20th, 2003, 8:05 am

Sounds suspiciously Macnair, if you ask me. I think it's quite likely that the calendar was Macnair's "calling card". Bode did receive it at the same time as the plant, so I'd say there's a connection there.

Back on topic, do we know what type of bubblegum wrapper Mrs Longbottom gives Neville? Is there a connection between Honeydukes (where Drooble's Best Blowing Gum) is sold and the Longbottoms?

Tis a mystery.

I never thought of Macnair. It looks like St Mungo's is crawling with Death Eaters!

Iggie

September 20th, 2003, 8:29 am

Tonks: "screwed up her eyes in a strained expression as though she were struggling to remember something. A second later, her hair had turned bubble-gum pink."

I just realized when I was typing that, there is the reference to "trying to remember something." Sounds alot like Alice Longbottom, doesn't it - strange choice of words if that is a coincidence!
Speaking of Tonks, here is something interesting I realized. The Longbottoms are on the Janus Thickey ward, right? Well, the Roman god Janus was depicted with two faces. So if someone is indeed up to no good in the ward, who would fit the two-faced description? Literally, we'd have Tonks. Figuratively, it could be anyone who puts themselves across to be on the side of the Order, but is in fact on Voldie's side.

I'm not making any predictions here, just throwing in another of my screwy ideas. <g>

phoenixsong

September 20th, 2003, 1:18 pm

silver ink pot: excellent work on Tonk's screwing up her face "as though she were struggling to remember something" in combination with her bubble-gum pink hair (which she wore on more than one occasion).

But if Tonks is around 22 years old now, she would have been very young when the Longbottoms were first tortured. Of course we don't know for how long Alice has been giving Neville the gum wrappers, or why Tonks would have bubble-gum pink hair when she went to do something bad to the Longbottoms.

As for Sturgis Podmore: it is just as possible that his lack of self-defense at his trial was keeping his Death Eater affiliation secret as his Order affiliation. In fact, it would make him a much more valuable spy for the DEs, since when he got out of Azkaban he would have proved his loyalty to the Order.

purplehawk

September 20th, 2003, 4:37 pm

As for Sturgis Podmore: it is just as possible that his lack of self-defense at his trial was keeping his Death Eater affiliation secret as his Order affiliation. In fact, it would make him a much more valuable spy for the DEs, since when he got out of Azkaban he would have proved his loyalty to the Order.

That's true, Phoenix. I don't know, though...

"Why?" Malfoy sounded incredulously delighted. "Because the only peoplel who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Department of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made, as the Dark Lord discovered when he attempted to use others to steal it for him." ...

... "So he's got you doing his dirty work for him, has he?" said Harry. "Like he tried to get Sturgis to steal it - and Bode?"

"Very good, Potter, very good... " said Malfoy slowly.

furryfreakferret

September 20th, 2003, 7:48 pm

Gosh, well apparently, I'm one of the few children in this forum. :scared: I thankfully have no children to give raspberries to.

Raspberries may be red, inky, but blue raspberry artifical flavoring isn't!

I know that some chemicals do burn blue and if I felt like asking my father, who's a highschool science and physics teacher, I could tell you which. However, I don't need him singing the "periodic table of elements song" again. I got that torture last night, thank you very much.

You know, Pop's making this theory with a gumiholic being responsible for the Longbottom's condition actually seem reasonable. Thanks, Pop! I only wish we knew someone who did eat amazing amounts of bubble gum. Good catch with Sturgis and Barty both having "straw colored hair." There may actually be something there. But, to add another layer, you mentioned his vulnerability to Voldemort's influence. So what if he's acting under the Imperious while he's keeping the Longbottom's in check (supposing he is, of course). It would just bring him around as a better guy. I'd hate to see ANOTHER member of the Order go bad. Besides, he's already served time in Azkaban.

As for Sturgis Podmore: it is just as possible that his lack of self-defense at his trial was keeping his Death Eater affiliation secret as his Order affiliation. In fact, it would make him a much more valuable spy for the DEs, since when he got out of Azkaban he would have proved his loyalty to the Order.

I don't know, pheo. I just don't know. I mean, it's true enough. But, what a scary thought! Some of you may remember, in the Who'll Die thread for book 5 we kept saying that Dumbledore will at one point have to misplace his trust and likely meet his demise of it? What if this is it? :scared:

You know, I wouldn't actually be all that surprised to find Tonks involved in all this. I was certain from the beginning that she would turn out to be an agent of Voldemort, as so many charecters we believe deserve our full trust turn out to be. I was very glad that she wasn't. :D But the bubblegum wrappers and the bubblegum-pink hair do leave a bit of an ominous ring. By the way, Purplehawk, :welcome: to our humble thread. Can I offer you anything to eat? We were just settling down to a little party.

Inky, you know you work too hard, don't you? But we've all really got to thank you for it. I've learned some amazing things off your posts. :D But all my friends think I'm crazy when I start listing off plants and their old uses in medicines. :shrug: I'm almost sure I've heard of laburnum before and it was either my mother (a gardener in her leisure) suggesting it to my grandparents for use in their yard, in a book listing it as a poisonous plant to horses (as you mentioned) or somewhere in the probably over a million pages of Potterverse, the books themselves or a thread somewhere. Regarding Quintus Fabius Maximus, I'll just mention to words: Fabian Prewett.

rosiepots, the gum wrapper is "Droobles Blowing Gum" in the American version and "Drooble's Best Blowng Gum" in the British. We haven't decided which J.K. Rowling meant. Oh and a :welcome: to you too. So many new people on our thread lately! :clap:

silver ink pot

September 20th, 2003, 8:21 pm

phoenixsong: I'm aware that Tonks isn't as old as the Longbottoms! And I'm not sure what the connection is between Tonks, bubble-gum hair, memory and the Longbottoms. But I do think Rowling is hinting at something there!

Here is more about Janus Thickey himself. He must be mentioned in that little book of Magical Creatures under Lethifold:

http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/t.html

Thickey, Janus - claimed to have been killed by a Lethifold (see below), but soon discovered five miles away, living with the landlady of the Green Dragon. Also namesake of a wing at St. Mungo's. Janus was the two-faced Roman god of doorways, beginnings, and the rising and setting of the sun. To descibe one as Janus-faced is to call him "deceitful," which is exactly what this Janus was. "Thickey" is British slang for "an idiot."

The inhabitants of the St. Mungo's wing suffer from permanent spell damage. The "Janus" two-faced aspect possibly references schizophrenia, and "thickey" represents those with diminished mental capacity (like our friend Lockhart).

Lethifold - a cloaklike creature that envelops and eats humans Possibly "lethal" (deadly) + "fold". Thus, a creature with lethal folds.

Janus, the god of arches and doorways, is also associated with war. That might be important since we know we are on the edge of war in this book. Of course Sirius disappears through an arch.

http://www.mysticgames.com/mythology/JANUS.htm

JANUS A purely Roman god, Janus was seen as the origin of all things, the introducer of the system of the years, the changing of the seasons, the ups and downs of fortune, and the civilisation of the human race by means of agriculture, industry, art and religion. Janus was said to have been originally an ancient king who came from Greece to Latium, instituting the worship of the gods and the building of temples to them, and was himself later elevated to godhood. Almost as powerful as Jupiter himself, Janus was the orchestrator of all things, and any enterprises, even be they begun by Jupiter, were seen to be under the control of Janus.

He opened and closed all things, and sat, not only on the confines of the Earth, but also at the gates of Heaven. Air, sea and land were in the hollow of his hands, and the world moved on its hinges at his command. He was popularly represented seated, with two heads, one that of a youth (to signify the concept of beginning), the other that of an aged man (indicating the end).

In his left hand he held a key, to show that he opened all things in the beginning, and shuts them at the end, and in his right hand he carried the sceptre with which he controlled all undertakings and their progress.

http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/mt/mtarticle2/1.html

The Roman poet/historian, Virgil, in his epic the Aeneid, said that when war was declared by the Romans, the consuls led the army and all the men of military age in a solemn, religious procession through the Janus Geminus on the path to war(6).

. . . This new theory for the origins of the triumphal arch proposes that because the army passed through the arched gateway of the Janus Geminus, the temple of beginnings and endings, to mark the beginning of war, it is logical to assume that they must have also passed in procession through the same portal at the end of hostilities to declare the end of the war. The early Romans may also have taken the opportunity to display their spoils of war, prisoners and trophies during this parade and perhaps they dedicated some of the booty to Janus. The temples to Janus were very small, estimated as no more than 30 feet (9 meters) square, and as the victory marches became larger and longer, with chariots, horsemen, wagons of loot, prisoners, trophies and troops of soldiers, a larger version of the temple was needed to accommodate the parade.

furryfreakferret

September 22nd, 2003, 10:27 pm

There's a film due to be released July 24, 2003 called "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind." Thought I'd put in a blurb about it because it seems that it may go along with our theories with the Longbottoms having their memories erased while in the hospital. Also, it seems the main charecter Joel (Jim Carrey) was able to hide some of his memories to keep them from being erased. Any chance Alice could've tried the same thing?

http://www.discoverkate.com/movies/eternal-sunshine/

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind begins with a man (Jim Carrey) receiving a notice that he has been erased from the memory of his ex-girlfriend (Kate Winslet). Jim Carrey's character, Joel, is so upset by this that he decides to have the same procedure done. Much of the film is played out in the mind as he sees his relationship with her in backward movement. Halfway through he decides he wants to keep her in his memories and hides her in other memories so she won't be erased.

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808457309&intl=us

Once the process starts, however, Joel realizes he doesn't really want to forget Clementine, so he starts smuggling her away into parts of his memory where she doesn't belong... which alters other things about his memories as well.

Hmm.... This Janus sounds like an interesting person/god/whatever. And all those quotes about archways and the beginning and eding of things. Maybe Harry could push Voldie through the Arch? Or walk through it himself?

I have the feeling I was going to tell you guys about something else I've discovered but unfortunatly, I've forgotten. Guess I'll see you later.

silver ink pot

September 23rd, 2003, 12:03 am

:D :wow: ;)

Furry! Come back, Furry! Don't forget us!

We need to sue this movie company. They have stolen this thread! And how can Jim Carrey hide his memories without something like the Pensieve?

He better not be chewing bubble gum!

furryfreakferret

September 24th, 2003, 2:44 am

???? Where'd I go? And how could you possibly believe I'd EVER forget you guys! Some of my best friends are on this site. Though I've already decided that should I ever by a stoke of incredible luck be able to meet J.K. Rowling and am allowed to ask a few questions that have been on my mind, I will leave the boards but remain to be PMed. Anyway, it's only a dream. A memory of a dream. But I still want to get into GoF. There are some goddiping American witches who'll probably be cut out of the film anyway, you see... By the way, where's everyone else? Maybe you ought to yell at THEM to come back.

Anyway, I was really rambling. Back on topic. After I got off yesterday, I went straight to FBa***T and looked up Lethifolds (think Voldemort can train those?). I think you may have really found something with this Janus Thickley. Amazing catch, can't believe I didn't think to look him up, considering I knew the person for whom Mr. Weasley's ward had been named. Remember that theory a long while ago about the Longbottoms faking it? I didn't believe it then but now.... I mean, Lockhart's not, pretty obviously, and Bode certainly wasn't; he died of his mental incapacity. But the Longbottom's.... We really don't know all that much about them when it comes down to it, just educated assumptions. And Janus, well he was faking it. You don't write notes saying you're being murdered and then show up 500 miles away living with landlady's of inns. (Wait, didn't it say Green Dragon? Isn't that in LotR?) Maybe they really ARE faking it! :wow:

Hey, do you have the British version? In ours (the Am. version) in the Hog's Head, Neville messes up the word Sorcerer's, calling it the Sorcerous Stone only to be corrected by Hermione. I looked in the dictionary and sorcerous isn't a word so I think it must just be more emphasis on his poor memory. (Poor Neville, J.K.'s always making fun of him!) Got anything? Does it say Philosipher's in yours? Does he mess that up too? It just seems odd that they'd change that and alter the whole conversation when they changed hardly any of the other British phrases. What on EARTH is "taking the mickey" anyway!? Who's "mickey" and WHY does he keep popping up all over the place!? The only mickey I know is the mouse and he's good for you. Disney is 100% family oriented!

whizbang121

September 24th, 2003, 6:22 am

We love you too, Furry!

I can buy that the Longbottoms are faking it, but ... why?

Emmeline

September 24th, 2003, 9:34 am

Hey, do you have the British version? In ours (the Am. version) in the Hog's Head, Neville messes up the word Sorcerer's, calling it the Sorcerous Stone only to be corrected by Hermione. I looked in the dictionary and sorcerous isn't a word so I think it must just be more emphasis on his poor memory. (Poor Neville, J.K.'s always making fun of him!) Got anything? Does it say Philosipher's in yours?

In the British version, Neville says "that Philological Stone" (p. 305)

"taking the mickey out of someone" means to make someone feel foolish, esp, by copying their gestures, etc or laughing at them for reasons they don't understand. But you probably got that much, right? :) As for mickey... don't know, but you should find the answer in an etymological dictionary (don't have one)

Yes, "The Green Dragon" is in LotR. So is the name Longbottom by the way "Tobold Hornblower of Longbottom" was the first hobbit go grow true pipe-weed. In the prolobgue of Lotr it says that "He knew much about herbs". As our dear Neville!

Great thread this by the way!

Emmeline - dictionary services :)

phoenixsong

September 24th, 2003, 10:28 am

Hey, furry: here are the entries from the OED:

mike, n.7
slang. [Origin uncertain; perh. after Mike Bliss, rhyming slang (listed in J. Franklin Dict. Rhyming Slang (ed. 2, 1961) 158) for **** (see to take the **** (out of) s.v. **** (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mickey&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10&xref=1&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&xrefed=REV&xrefword=****&ps=n.) n. 2).]
Only in to take the mike out of: = to take the mickey out of s.v. MICKEY (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mickey&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10&xref=1&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&xrefed=REV&xrefword=mickey&ps=n.&homonym_no=1) n.1 7.
Not found in North America.

a1935 T. E. LAWRENCE Mint (1955) II. vi. 117 But, mate, you let the flight down, when he takes the mike out of you every time. 1935 G. INGRAM Cockney Cavalcade i. 14 He wouldn't let Pancake ‘take the mike’ out of him. 1940 N. & Q. 1 June 382/1 ‘Taking the mike out of’ anyone means pulling his leg, having a game with him. 1956 J. CANNAN People to be Found i. 14 They won't 'alf take the mike out of 'im. 1973 ‘B. MATHER’ Snowline vi. 75 Watch it... The Swami don't dig taking the mike out of the gods.

mickey, n.1
7. colloq. (chiefly Brit.). to take the mickey (out of): to behave or speak satirically or mockingly; to make fun of, satirize, or debunk (a person or thing). Cf. MIKE (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mickey&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=yooD-GBIqkV-763&result_place=1&xrefed=REV&xrefword=mike&ps=n.&homonym_no=7) n.7, **** (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mickey&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=yooD-GBIqkV-763&result_place=1&xrefed=REV&xrefword=****&ps=n.)n. 2.

1948 A. BARON From City, from Plough vi. 49 ‘Higgsy,’ said the sergeant, ‘they think I'm taking the mickey. Tell 'em.’ 1952 ‘J. HENRY’ Who lie in Gaol iv. 66 She's a terror. I expect she'll try and take the mickey out of you all right. Don't you stand for nothin'. 1957 L. P. HARTLEY Hireling 134 He had no great regard for Constance, except in so far as she sometimes took the mickey out of Hughie. 1958 Observer 28 Dec. 3/1 ‘Tonight’ is not only a tough and irreverent programme, but glib and smart and anxious to take the mickey. 1960 E. W. HILDICK Jim Starling & Colonel ix. 76 The servers must have thought that no boy would dare to take the mickey in such circumstances. 1971 B. W. ALDISS Soldier Erect 101 Geordie looked anxiously at me, in case I thought he was taking the micky too hard. 1991 Sunday Sun (Brisbane) 3 Feb. 6/5, I don't think there is any subject that is too serious to take the micky out of.

As you can see, it is a fairly recent term; the first attested usage seems to be 1935. But check out that last quotation: I don't think there is any subject that is too serious to take the micky out of.
Fred and George in a nutshell, eh?

silver ink pot

September 24th, 2003, 4:17 pm

Thanks Emmeline and phoenixsong, or the "Dictionary Services"! ;)

"Take the Mickey out" must be extremely British, because we never use that phrase in the United States - at least not in the South. I didn't quite understand the meaning because I was thinking of the slang phrase "slip a Mickey" which means to slip a drug into someone's drink.

http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=Mickey+Finn

Mickey Finn: noun (slang) a a drink containing a drug to make the drinker unconscious, usually formed by the combination of chloral hydrate and alcohol. It can be poisonous
b the drug itself
Often shortened to: Mickey
[ETYMOLOGY: 20th Century: of unknown origin]

I think this comes from a saloon owner in Chicago, Illinois:

http://www.llcc.edu/gtruitt/SCJ%20Fall%202003%20Web%20Pages/SCJ%20100%20Fall%202002%20Start%20Page/origin%20of%20mob%20in%20chicago.htm

By the 1870s, there were so many vice districts in Chicago that a directory was published to enable visitors to find their way to such places as Little Cheyenne, Satan’s Mile, Whiskey Row, and the Levee. One of the more notable saloon proprietors of the day was Mickey Finn. . . . Finn operated two saloons, the Lone Star and the Palm Garden, at the southern end of Whiskey Row. Finn was famous for one of the drinks that he offered in his saloon, the "Mickey Finn Special." This drink was allegedly made from a secret powder that Finn had obtained from a "voodo witch doctor." A Mickey Finn Special would render the drinker unconscious thus giving Finn the opportunity to rifle the unsuspecting patron’s pockets. As a result of his activities, Mickey Finn’s name can today be found in most dictionaries denoting "any of several powerful drugs, especially chloral hydrate, that are secretly put into alcoholic drinks to produce unconsciousness" (New Scholastic Dictionary, 1981:492).

This is a phrase you hear alot in police and detective movies.

Furry: I was just teasing about you leaving us, not yelling. ;) You were saying that you had forgotten what you were posting:

I have the feeling I was going to tell you guys about something else I've discovered but unfortunatly, I've forgotten.

and I was just playing along with the idea that you might wander off with no memory in a Lockhart sort of way. :agree: :) Joking, playing, laughing, whatever. I would never yell at you, Furry.

Popkin

September 24th, 2003, 8:15 pm

Everybody's been posting such interesting stuff.

silver - I really enjoyed all your comments on pods and Podmores, the evolution of the triumphal arch, Janus and Janus Thickey.

Have you read anything about St. Haralambos, a saint of the (I think) Greek Orthodox Church? He is also known as St. Harry, and two of his nemesis are Severus and Lucius. Everything I've read about him seems right up your alley. It's way off topic, but I thought you might really like to read about him. Let us know where you post your findings.

phoenix - I had never heard "mickey" used in that way before. "take the mickey out of". I've got to use it right away before I forget it again.

furry - That Jim Carey movie, Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind, sounds fascinating. I'd love to see it, and it gives us another way Alice could have fought off the complete loss of her mind. Maybe she planted (what an appropo word for our young herbologist) Neville in all her memories so that if she could hold on to anything he'd be there.

silver was just trying to take the mickey out of you when she called you back, furry. I hope we can find out who our gum chewing culprit is so we can take the mickey out of him (assuming its a him). In the meantime, I guess we'll have to settle for taking the mickey out of Lucius and Bellatrix. On second thought, lets slip them each a mickey and then take the mickey out of them while they're unconscious.

Well, my mind is well on its way to becoming spotless - unlike my home. I'm completely tapped out. Looking forward to reading your next great ideas.

whizbang121

September 25th, 2003, 4:42 am

Good Grief!

I gotta come back and catch up tomorrow. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

pufflepuff

September 25th, 2003, 5:17 am

It would be really interesting if Neville's new wand was made out of Gum Tree wood!

furryfreakferret

September 27th, 2003, 9:26 pm

:welcome: Emmeline! And thank you for the definition. Actually, I, like inky, supposed it was slang for some type of drug Ron was suggesting Luna was on. Never would've guessed it meant that... And thank you most kindly for pointing out those nice little connections in the Lord of the Rings. What's the betting Rowling drew from Tolkien too? And they both are herbologists! So many connections, so little time. Anyway, I went and looked them both up. Why? Why not. Concerning Longbottom and the LotR - all accounts agree that Tobold Hornblower of Longbottom in the Southfarthing first grew the true pipe-weed in his gardens in the days of Isengrim the Second about the year 1070 of Shire-reckoning. The best home-grown still comes from that district, especially the varieties known as Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, and Southern Star. So, Longbottom, in this series, is a place rather than a person. But hey, if you have to be a place, no better place to be than the Shire, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps, Neville was able to breed that mimbulus mimbletonia and is later going to be credited with starting some odd tradition. Also, the Green Dragon - it's an inn at Bywater where Sam tried to convince Ted Sandyman (who, if my memory holds true, played a rather large role in the end, whether for the aid of Sharky or Frodo, I'm not sure), the miller's son of the existence of such beasts as dragons, ents, elves, and the like. Interesting, can you think of anyone else who wouldn't open his eyes and see what's in front of him? Someone who'd rather people who tell stories about returned Dark Lords are cracked than believe what they say? ;) By the way, since I'm talking about the Rings anyway, did I mention that Elijah Wood, the actor who plays Frodo Baggins, is in that Eternal Sunshine movie. Just one more reason for us to go see it, eh? :D

Popkin, St. Harry has rivals named Lucius and Severus? :lol: Where does this sound familar from? Is this the same Severus who had to clean up after the war? The one it talks about on mugglenet name origins?

Gum Tree wood? Interesting thought. Only we'd catch on though. :frown: Better go ask Mr. Ollivander. I'm pretty sure it'd have to be an imported wood as it's a bit unusual. Not sure he'd use it. By the way, a :welcome: to you too, puff.

Ah yes, and my dear friend Mr. Dictionary tells me that the word "philology," the root word for philological, means 1) the love of learning and literature; study; scholarship 2) the study of written records esp. literary texts, in order to determine their authenticity, meaning, etc. 3) the earlier term for linguistics. It has several origins written down too. In French, phiologie - not a language I know so I can't translate. In Latin - philologia meaning "love of learning." And in Greek, philolgia meaning "love of literature." Also, it mentions philein, to love + logos, a word. Anyone make anything of it. It's all Greek to me. :huh:

miri

September 28th, 2003, 1:53 am

That could come in useful - a philological stone! If LV can't stand love, then slip him the elixer of love, telling him it's the elixer of life, and he'll... very possibly explode... ;)

purplehawk

September 28th, 2003, 2:23 am

Bahahaha! Freeze-dried Voldemort grounds!

miri

September 28th, 2003, 3:04 am

Nobody put it in the perkolator (sp?)! It won't taste good... :rotfl: :evil:

furryfreakferret

September 28th, 2003, 4:31 am

Nobody put it in the perkolator (sp?)! It won't taste good... :rotfl: :evil:

That's gross, mir, very gross. You know, that could come in useful. 'Cept it's the love of learning and literature, which for all we do know, he's already got. I mean he was headboy, wasn't he? Can you manage that without being a bookworm? By the way, I think you're new to the thread aren't you? Tart? Or Ben 'n' Jerry's? We were having a tea party earlier.

Alcina

October 5th, 2003, 12:40 pm

.
As for Sturgis Podmore: it is just as possible that his lack of self-defense at his trial was keeping his Death Eater affiliation secret as his Order affiliation. In fact, it would make him a much more valuable spy for the DEs, since when he got out of Azkaban he would have proved his loyalty to the Order.

I suspect that he was probably still under the Imperius curse at his trial, rather than remaining loyal to anyone. I imagine Lucius would have wanted to keep hold of him till after the trial to make sure he wouldn't let on who'd cursed him.

In answer to another question, the one about blue flames, sulphur burns with a blue flame.

Now back on topic: I don't think we know for sure that Neville is keeping all the gum wrappers forever in order to decipher some sort of message. His gran only said he had been given enoughto paper a room, not that he was actually papering rooms with them.

I think it more likely if there is any meaning in them that it's that Alice is thinking of someone who blows gum. But the flaw in this theory is that AFAIK we haven't met any such peron. Bother.

BellatrixLeS

October 5th, 2003, 7:05 pm

I suspect that he was probably still under the Imperius curse at his trial, rather than remaining loyal to anyone. I imagine Lucius would have wanted to keep hold of him till after the trial to make sure he wouldn't let on who'd cursed him.

We don't know if someone would always who is doing thing Imperius Curse on them, do we? Is it possible to do it without the victim's knowledge?

I think this is an intriguing thread, but I read the gum wrapper episode to simply be Neville sentimentally keeping something that is mother, who he loves, gave him.

furryfreakferret

October 6th, 2003, 10:43 pm

:welcome: you two! This thread has been silent for far too long. I was beginning to fear it had become inactive! :wow: But it's apparently not so all is right with the world! :D

I happen to agree with Bellatrix actually. I'm not sure you would necessarily know who had you under the Imperious unless, like Harry, you saw them cast the spell. I assume that you would hear a little voice speaking inside your numbed brain and if you happened to recognize the voice, you'd know, but otherwise.... Of course, then again, if their mind is in that state of blank bliss perhaps you wouldn't be capable of recognizing voices? :shrugs: Or can you let someone out of the trance while still keeping them within the Curse? I mean, like not have them under your control at the moment but be able to regain it at any given moment no matter how far away the person is? Am I making sense? :huh:

I know we have no proof that Neville's been keeping them all. His gran probably finds a stash of them every so often when she goes in to tidy and throws them out. There's no way Nev could keep 16 some odd years of bubblegum wrappers. There's just no place for such things! But if it's an anagram like we were predicting earlier or something not directly related to the wrappers themselves, like the person chewing them, then he wouldn't need all of them. I don't know. I'm having a hard time explaining myself today.

Anyway, can I take your coats? Dinner's in the basement kitchen. Molly made meatballs.

sindatur

October 6th, 2003, 11:03 pm

:I know we have no proof that Neville's been keeping them all. His gran probably finds a stash of them every so often when she goes in to tidy and throws them out. There's no way Nev could keep 16 some odd years of bubblegum wrappers. There's just no place for such things! But if it's an anagram like we were predicting earlier or something not directly related to the wrappers themselves, like the person chewing them, then he wouldn't need all of them. I don't know. I'm having a hard time explaining myself today.

Anyway, can I take your coats? Dinner's in the basement kitchen. Molly made meatballs.

Why couldn't Neville have kept every gum wrapper his mother has ever given him? He's only 15 now, and doesn't visit his mother daily (I actually don't remember the gum wrapper thing, how many does he get each trip, and how often are his trips?) I only know about it from the board, I'll pay close attention when I get to that chapter again. It would be hard to imagine anytime before he was 5 years old, that he would be intelligent enough to keep them (If she's always given them to him). So let's say 10 years worth. Let's say he visits once a week, that's still only 520 trips. Gum wrappers are very thin, you could lay them out flat and bundle them in a rubber band, and 100 wrappers would be a very small little packet. You could fit several hundred wrappers inside a cigarette pack, possibly even 1000 depending upon the shape of them, and how determined you were.

furryfreakferret

October 7th, 2003, 10:17 pm

hmmmm.... Good point. I never really considered how thin a bubble gum wrapper is, even grouped together. But I doubt much escapes the eyes of the vulture, or her hat. He'd have to have had a really good hiding place for them. Cigarette pack? Bad, bad hiding place! Nev's the last one of the charecters I can picture turning to drugs, unless perhaps we're including the ever-optomistic Creevey brothers. But yes, I suppose it would only be 10 or less years. Any younger than that he'd probably attempt to eat them. ;)

Anyway, the bubblegum wrapper scene is the last 3 or 4 pages of "Christmas On the Closed-Ward." Very depressing scene, more so even, perhaps or at least for me, than the departure of Snuffles!

whizbang121

October 8th, 2003, 12:14 am

And thank you most kindly for pointing out those nice little connections in the Lord of the Rings. What's the betting Rowling drew from Tolkien too? And they both are herbologists! So many connections, so little time. Anyway, I went and looked them both up. Why? Why not. Concerning Longbottom and the LotR -

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all accounts agree that Tobold Hornblower of Longbottom in the Southfarthing first grew the true pipe-weed in his gardens in the days of Isengrim the Second about the year 1070 of Shire-reckoning. The best home-grown still comes from that district, especially the varieties known as Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, and Southern Star.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, Longbottom, in this series, is a place rather than a person. But hey, if you have to be a place, no better place to be than the Shire, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps, Neville was able to breed that mimbulus mimbletonia and is later going to be credited with starting some odd tradition
The description of Neville sounds a bit like a Hobbit, too.
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*
Ah yes, and my dear friend Mr. Dictionary tells me that the word "philology," the root word for philological, means 1) the love of learning and literature; study; scholarship
Well, just off the top of my head, philos means friend and ology means the study of. :eyebrows:

Popkin

October 8th, 2003, 9:24 am

Well, just off the top of my head, philos means friend and ology means the study of. :eyebrows:
Actually, philos means "brotherly love" - hence the love of learning.

That's why the city of Philadelphia is the "City of Brotherly Love".

phoenixsong

October 8th, 2003, 11:19 am

In Chaucer, ad. L. philologia; in 17th c. prob. a. F. philologie, ad. L. philologia, a. Gr. http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/phi.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/iota.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/gamma.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/giacu.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/alpha.gif, abstr. n. from http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/phi.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/iota.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/goacu.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/gamma.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/fsigma.gif fond of speech, talkative; fond of dicussion or argument; studious of words; fond of learning and literature, literary; f. http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/phi.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/iota.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gif- PHILO- (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=philology&edition=2e&first=1&max_to_show=10&single=1&sort_type=alpha&xrefed=OED&xrefword=philo-) + http://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/lambda.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/goacu.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/gamma.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/omicron.gifhttp://dictionary.oed.com/graphics/parser/gifs/mb/fsigma.gif word, speech, etc.Actually, going back to this point, it is quite interesting, if it is paired with Mimbulous mimbletonia. We have seen Neville stutter, be at a loss for words many, many times. The name of his plant, mimbulous mimbletonia seems to connote some connection to mumbling (we have theorized that it causes someone to mumble, or prevents mumbling), and now we see Neville also discussing the Philologist's Stone: the magical stone enabling knowledge of words? Is there some sort of spell on Neville making him mess up his words so that he can't do incantations? Is there some sort of magical device to enable him to overcome this obstacle?

whizbang121

October 8th, 2003, 2:18 pm

Maybe "study of literature" is a massive hint for us to do what we've been doing. :agree:

sindatur

October 8th, 2003, 3:17 pm

Hi FurryFreakFerret, sorry, I wasn't implying Neville would turn to drugs or smoke cigarettes (that's Dudley's gig). I just happened to have a pack in my hand, and it seemed a good illustrator of size, and how little space bubblegum wrappers actually would take up.

Has anyone found and posted any connections to gum wrappers (or gum in general) and the Mimbulus Mimbletonia Plant. I definitely believe the plant could be at least partially responsible for the new Neville.

1. Being the password for the common room, that's one thing he doesn't need to expend brain power on trying to remember, or stress over not remembering.
2. It is mentioned in the book somewhere (on the train with the stinksap, I believe) something about the plant being capable of instilling confidence (isn't it? Or is that a supposition someone made because of the literal translation of the name)
3. Give Neville a shot in the arm from either or both of these things, and it just opened the door to find the confidence to apply himself and excel in the DA (of course Harry's patience and teaching style certainly helped there as well), which is propelling him even further.

furryfreakferret

October 9th, 2003, 1:06 am

Hooray! You're all back!!!!!! :clap: Where'd you all go?

Hehe, I know you weren't hinting toward Neville turning to drugs, sindatur. :D I was just messing with you. What do you call that - "taking the mickey"? But about the mimbulus mimbletonia and the bubble gum, I don't think anyone's gone into that field, or if they did it's flown my slippery little memory. But, the stinksap could be an ingredient in bubble gum - wizarding bubble gum anyway? I know they use - is it sap? - from the gum tree for Muggle gum. But, since you mentioned it, what is the exact translation of mimbulus mimbletonia? I can't remember whether we ever got beyond monkey. But, yes, there's plently of reason for us to theorize that it's at least partly responsible for the "new Neville" as you called him.

Um, are you all sure Neville says "Philological Stone" and not "Philosophical Stone." That I can alomst understand. Having to do with philosophy and the next word in the dictionary after philospher. (grrrrr... ignore my awful spelling! Can't spell Lockhart. See? S-T-U-P-I-D.) Anyway... there may be something there, there may not be. I was just throwing things into the pool of knut's for our thoughts. "Madam President, I move to...." Here the Parlimentarian would say, "Madam President, she is out of order." (We're studying Parlimentary Procedure for Agriculture, part of the F.F.A. - test tomorrow. I may begin doing this often on these boards to keep my skills sharp. All opposed say "nay.")

Anyway, I think I really need to shut up now and go study Spanish. Wish me luck. Thanks in advance!

whizbang121

October 9th, 2003, 3:04 pm

Has this page become abnormally wide on anyone else's screen?!

I can't remember how Neville came by the mimbelus mimblewhatever-ia :huh: Did someone give it to him?

sindatur

October 9th, 2003, 3:35 pm

Uncle Algie gave it to him.

I thought somewhere someone went into it much deeper than this (translating the latin to English, but, anyway I found this in the Mimbulus Mimbletonia thread in the Great Hall.

"Originally posted by AProphet (original post)
I did a little research and I found this

There is a real plant out there called mimulus, this plant can be used as a remedy for known fears, a type os remedy for people who tend to benervous, timid, and generally shy. It is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strangth that lies hidden in such people.

I think this plant will help Neville to come out of his shell. And it makes sense, he is good at herbology so that will help him discover the secrets of the plant.;D "

furryfreakferret

October 9th, 2003, 10:14 pm

There is a real plant out there called mimulus, this plant can be used as a remedy for known fears, a type os remedy for people who tend to benervous, timid, and generally shy. It is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strangth that lies hidden in such people.

Great discovery sindatur! I'd comliment Prophet but he's not here so it falls to you. Sounds as though this could be the culprit. An exact replication of Neville's "cactus." And it has helped him. :clap: Think I should try it? I could ask our Florticulture teacher if he's got any. Then I could public-speak too. :D But I'm getting off topic. :whistle:

And no, the screen's not wide. Though the reply screen has always been abnormally wide. :shrug:

phoenixsong

October 10th, 2003, 11:51 am

Alcina

October 10th, 2003, 6:31 pm

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think the Philology thing might actually be important. There are so many branches of magic, each very potent in its own right. It is quite possible that the clue to undoing whatever enchantments keep the Longbottoms mad has something to do with the study of words. Or to undoing whatever it is that keeps Neville from not remembering whatever it his that he is being kept from remembering. Neville's mispronunciations have marked him as much as his connection to herbology. So the "philologist's stone" could be as important as mimbulus mimbletonia.

I think it is rather more that Neville is finding the confidence that he used to lack through his love of the subject of Herbology. He's starting to feel that there's one thing he's good at, and that's giving him more confidence all round. The M. mimbletonia is a part of that so it makes him feel better.

Hey, well done for itaicising generic and specific names. I spent 5 years completely failing to get Cambridge University Undergraduates to learn to do that!

furryfreakferret

October 10th, 2003, 10:13 pm

Could it perhaps be the undoing of Voldemort, like I've been saying from the beginning? I suposse not really. But, yeah, this could be important. Somehow.... I think this is yet another thing to add to our list of tabs. How much more can we get on our own? Or anyone know a way to lure J.K. here?

Thank you muchly, Alcina, for your compliment on our knowing that scientific names are put in italics. And :welcome: to the thread! You a colledge professor then? Any helpful hints for those of us yet to face the challenges of university life? And what's with your signature. *backs away slowly* hehe. :scared:

phoenixsong

October 11th, 2003, 12:23 pm

I think it is rather more that Neville is finding the confidence that he used to lack through his love of the subject of Herbology. He's starting to feel that there's one thing he's good at, and that's giving him more confidence all round. The M. mimbletonia is a part of that so it makes him feel better.Granted that self-confidence is most crucial to Neville. But the larger context of my point was in connecting in the connotations of the name Mimbulus mimbletonia (and I would say that the name connotes some sort of connection to mumbling, and we have theorized on the Mimbulus mimbletonia thread that it may either cause or prevent mumbling or mispronunciation), with Neville's error "Philologist's Stone" (that is a putative stone for people who really care about precision in language). Part of Neville's success in Herbology has been 1) it doesn't require the use of a wand (and we just learned in OotP one reason for his shoddy wand-work: he didn't have his own wand) and 2) it doesn't require incantations (for we have seen Neville's stuttering and lack of verbal confidence). Though one would think this would make him okay in Potions, but special circumstances intervene there. Anyway, my point was only that there might in fact be a connection between Philology and Mimbulus mimbletonia.

furryfreakferret

October 11th, 2003, 10:49 pm

Good theory, pheo. Could be a connection there somewhere I suppose. Neville certainly does have self-confidence issues, as I was telling my sister earlier today, brought along by his dear grandmother, and they certainly do account for most if not all his poor wizarding skills. But Neville certainly has a nitch in Herbolgoy (and will later be the professor by my train of thought) and he seems to throughly enjoy it. And true though it is that M. mimbletonia sounds like mumbling I think the hidden meaning lies more in the plant AProphet mentioned. Though, knowing the cunning Mrs. Rowling, it could be both easily enough. What say you?

whizbang121

October 13th, 2003, 4:36 am

Or anyone know a way to lure J.K. here?
Not yet! She's writing. According to the rumor mill, the first draft of book six should be done in January. It looks like it will be a tad shorter than GoF, so far. How long is it from first draft to book release? I doubt we will have it next summer because the PoA movie is due in June. Probaby not for a year at least. sigh.

Might be time for a book six spoiler thread though. I heard another rumor that, right or wrong, will probably be common knowledge in ten or fifteen minutes. :agree: ;)

Hpmons

October 13th, 2003, 6:12 pm

Not yet! She's writing. According to the rumor mill, the first draft of book six should be done in January. It looks like it will be a tad shorter than GoF, so far. How long is it from first draft to book release? I doubt we will have it next summer because the PoA movie is due in June. Probaby not for a year at least. sigh.
You sound suspiciously well informed abou the future book...Are you sure you are not JKR in disguise?

There is a real plant out there called mimulus, this plant can be used as a remedy for known fears, a type os remedy for people who tend to benervous, timid, and generally shy. It is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strangth that lies hidden in such people.
Now that IS interesting...Fits in very well with the story - it does seem to improve his confidence, and he seems to get quite...close? To the plant. Here a quote:

And Neville was stroking his Mimbulus mimbletonia, which had grown a great deal over the year and now made odd crooning noises when touchedIt seems the plant like Neville too...

EDIT: Ahh! Read the book 6 spoiler! (Not that surprising though) . Sorry, completely off topic.

whizbang121

October 14th, 2003, 8:43 pm

You sound suspiciously well informed abou the future book...Are you sure you are not JKR in disguise?

:lol: you found me out ... not.
Sorry. I should have mentioned that the quote came from DarkMark.com and picked up by Leaky Cauldron. It seems to have a thread of its own already.

furryfreakferret

October 14th, 2003, 10:27 pm

hehe. First off, LOVE the siggy, Hpmones. You know, I had one like that once: "I'm sorry. I was thinking about chocolate and have absolutly no idea what you just said." and an enlarged picture of chocolate chips being made. It looked absolutly scrumdiddlyumptious!

Anywho... Neville and the plant do seem rather fond of each other don't they? But I assumed the M. mimbletonis was supposed to represent Neville, you know, metaphorically speaking. He grew charecter wise and so that plant grew too, that sort of thing.

And, whiz, was the "common knowledge" you spoke of the copyright forms from the mysterious Seafoam Ltd? And if not where can I get it? They are, for those of you who have not heard, The Battle for Hogwarts and The Last Revalation. Earlier they took The Mudblood's Revolt and The Centaur's Quest. Thoughts, questions, comments, complaints?

Oh yes, and I'd just like to say CONGRATULATIONS to Connecticut's new teacher of the year!!!! CONGRATS MR. D!!!! :D

whizbang121

October 15th, 2003, 8:20 am

hehe. First off, LOVE the siggy, Hpmones. You know, I had one like that once: "I'm sorry. I was thinking about chocolate and have absolutly no idea what you just said." and an enlarged picture of chocolate chips being made. It looked absolutly scrumdiddlyumptious!

Anywho... Neville and the plant do seem rather fond of each other don't they? But I assumed the M. mimbletonis was supposed to represent Neville, you know, metaphorically speaking. He grew charecter wise and so that plant grew too, that sort of thing.

And, whiz, was the "common knowledge" you spoke of the copyright forms from the mysterious Seafoam Ltd? And if not where can I get it? They are, for those of you who have not heard, The Battle for Hogwarts and The Last Revalation. Earlier they took The Mudblood's Revolt and The Centaur's Quest. Thoughts, questions, comments, complaints?

http://www.darkmark.com/c.c?l=home&t=News%20and%20Updates
It's about the fifth story down titled Spy Report.;)

furryfreakferret

October 16th, 2003, 5:21 pm

http://www.darkmark.com/c.c?l=home&t=News%20and%20Updates
It's about the fifth story down titled Spy Report.;)

Thanx, whiz! I'm there now. :D Yea! No messed up POA!

zoeydsngwrtr

October 16th, 2003, 5:37 pm

Ok, I am a bit behind the times, haven't had a chance to read too much.

1) So the PoA movie isn't coming out until next summer??? I thought that it was coming out this winter, but then, I am not really up on the times. In that case, my thoughts on when Book six comes out, October or November of 2004, just in time for Christmas. Maybe as late as December though, but I doubt it, because if it is out earlier, then they can take the super sale prices off just in time for December

2) I think there is a huge significance in Neville and his plants. I think it not only shows that Neville can actually do something right, but it seems to be connected to his parents condition, maybe Neville will lead amazing research on how to cure people who are in the condition his parents are in, maybe, most likely, Neville secretly dreams of curing his parent so that he can get out of Gran's mean clutches!

Sorry if I am repeating anything already said, I have missed a lot and am trying to catch up in the little amount of time that I have.

whizbang121

October 17th, 2003, 7:07 am

Maybe book six will show up for Halloween!

I didn't read that anywhere. I made it up.
Complete fiction!:)

Veritaserum

October 17th, 2003, 2:54 pm

OH MY GOD IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING!?!?! Haven't been here in ages, hey freaky how you doin?!? I don't come here often any more, too busy with uni. Ahem anyway well done me for turning this into a chat room. Bye!

furryfreakferret

October 17th, 2003, 9:51 pm

:lol: Yep, Verri! We're still here and still trying to come up with an answer to life's biggest questions! (Or not.) What's up? Sorry I haven't had much time to read fanfics lately. I started yours it's really good! :tu:

Anyway.... J.K. better not release book 6 during the school year! How am I suppposed to concentrate on school if I don't know who lives, dies, whatever's going to happen - there haven't been many spoilers yet...?! I'm NOT getting kicked outta school for being obsessed with Harry Potter. We'd have to make it a national week off of school just so we could all read!

Yes, Neville definatly wants to see his parents cured, even more than we do which seems to be saying something. Awwww.... Wouldn't it be sweet if Snape discovered or helped discovered the cure? Then Nev might actually get over his fear! :clap: But I don't think it'd do anything for Harry. :banghead: He - can - be - so - STUBBRON - sometimes!

silver ink pot

October 18th, 2003, 5:56 am

:) Hi, Freaky an Whizbang and All!

I have been looking for something new for us to talk about, and I tripped over a few things tonight. I was searching for something about famous villains who chew gum, and I found this from the Superman movie. This is a quote from Lex Luthor, Superman's arch enemy.

"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."
:lol: I found that on a movie trivia quiz:
http://www.twcnebraska.com/cable/ppv_may03.shtml (http://www.twcnebraska.com/cable/ppv_may03.shtml)

What do you think? Do you like that? It really makes you wonder about Neville and those gum wrappers, LOL!:elaugh:
I have never read or collected Superman comic books, but I may start looking at Lex Luthor a little more closely! Here is more:

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor)
Luthor's stated goals are to kill Superman and to take over the world as a stepping stone to dominating the universe. Over the years, Luthor came up with every conceivable plan to destroy Superman; he has synthesized Kryptonite, travelled back in time, summoned beings from the Fourth Dimension, created robots, clones, and genetic monstrosities, allied himself with the alien super-computer Brainiac, animated Kryptonite rocks, detonated H-Bombs, and has masqueraded and taken on a number of aliases. During the 1980s Luthor adopted a powersuit that allowed him to battle Superman physically. Although none of his schemes worked permanently (though one classic "imaginary story" from the 1960s called The Death of Superman has Luthor finally killing Superman with Kryptonite after lulling him by pretending to go straight) Luthor's persistence has made him Superman's most troublesome foe.

Though originally portrayed with a full head of red hair, from 1941 onwards Luthor came to be portrayed as completely bald due to the mistake made by an artist who worked on the Superman daily comic strip. Shuster preferred drawing bald villains anyway, so the more striking bald appearance — a Luthor trademark — was thereby adopted. Several years later a back-story finally filled in how Luthor lost his hair, and that Luthor's hatred of Superman stemmed from a childhood incident where a teenaged Superboy used his superbreath to extinguish a fire that had broken out in Luthor's lab. Unfortunately for him, during this rescue attempt chemicals were spilled, causing Luthor to go prematurely bald and destroying Luthor's successful attempt to create new life through chemistry which might have also cured Superboy of his susceptibility to kryptonite. Luthor attributed Superboy's acts to jealousy on the Kryptonian's part and vowed revenge.

See the actual comic book pictures of Lex losing his hair here:
http://superman.ws/tales2/luthor/?page=9 (http://superman.ws/tales2/luthor/?page=9)

Though he was a noted villain and an evil mastermind on Earth, Luthor was revered as a hero on the alien world of Lexor, where he utilized his scientific genius to rediscover the planet's technology and rebuilt society for the inhabitants. Superman himself has acknowledged that Luthor is a man of his word who would honor promises he made. Luthor had a younger blond-haired sister, Lena Thorul (her last name an anagram of "Luthor"), an empath who grew up unaware of her familial connection with the noted villain. Protective of his sister, Luthor had strived to hide his connection and had been assisted towards this end by both Supergirl and Superman.

furryfreakferret

October 18th, 2003, 7:25 pm

Hey, inky's back! And she's got new stuff for us hooray! See? The secrets of the universe in the ingredients on a gum wrapper. Maybe I ought to take a look and see excactly what I'm chewing next time. Hey! Mr. Weasley's a red-head going bald! But I don't think it has anything to do with... Neville or Harry or whoever is taking on the role of Superman. I think for now we've gotta use Draco if we're gonna have the arch nemisis thing. Harry's more of a son and I'm not sure he really knows who Neville is. And as far as anagrams, all we have to do is look back into some of our early pages. I'd almost forgotten those!

My turn now! Can I bring up an old sidetrack. I was randomly thinking about Harry Potter last night, which is odd - I've never done that before in my life :rolleyes: (if you believed that...) - and started thinking about Sturgis Podmore. Which led me to Eric Munch. But first Sturgis.

Just to refresh your memories....

Strugis Podmore, 38, of number two, Laburnum Gardens, Clapham, has appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trespass and attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on 31st August. Podmore was arrested by Ministry of Magic watch-wizard Eric Munch, who found him attempting to force his way through a top-security door at one o'clock in the morning. Podmore, who refused to speak in his own defense, was convicted of both charges and sentenced to six months in Azkaban.

Perhaps not the most interesting of articles but I think there's a lot in there.

Earlier we were theorizing that Sturgis was a Death Eater and that his refusal to speak on his on behalf was to cover up his loyalties to both parties. Popkin was talking about it back on page 14. And maybe that's true; I'm honestly not sure. But she suggested that he was our mysterious gum-chewer who keeps leaving the wrappers behind. And we kept going back and forth; not really sure if we settled anything. Anyway...

I looked up laburnum, as did inky, but found entirely different results. She found it as a posionous plant that should not be allowed to hang over psature fences. I found that it can be used for medicinal purposes. Anyway, here's what I got:

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/melilo29.html

The herb has aromatic, emollient and carminative properties. It was formerly much esteemed in medicine as an emollient and digestive and is recommended by Gerard for many complaints, the juice for clearing the eyesight, and, boiled with lard and other ingredients, as an application to wens and ulcers, and mixed with wine, 'it mitigateth the paine of the eares and taketh away the paine of the head.' Applied as a plaster, or in ointment, or as a fomentation, it is an old-fashioned country remedy for the relief of abdominal and rheumatic pains. The dried plant has been employed to scent snuff and smoking tobacco and may be laid among linen for the same purpose as lavender. When packed with furs, Melilot, (or laburnum) is said to act like camphor and preserve them from moths, besides imparting a pleasant fragrance.

I'm not sure how much sense any of that makes but the note about curing blindness seems interesting. If you think of it more as removing the, shall I say, wool from the eyes, it makes Sturgis seem VERY fishy. Not to mention the whole poisonous plant thing. I should mention that with all of those, it seems you must first dilute the laburnum.

But, in his defense, or perhaps more to incriminate someone else. Doesn't it seem odd that Eric was there at 1 A.M. to catch Sturgis but not there at, let's guesstimate midnight, to catch the dozen or so Death Eaters, their leader, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, and Luna? Just wondering what you all thought about that little brain child.

Hey, and while I'm on the subject of offering alternatives to our prior theories: I was looking through Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them just now and stumbled across some useful things. 1) Jobberknoll feathers are used in Truth Serums and Memory Potions. We've been dealing with both haven't we? And the fact that there Memory Potions seems like a good point to bring up. So far we've been confininf ourselves to Memory Charms, that being all we know. And Truth Serums are useful to any one trying to figure things out. 2) Did you realize Murtlap isn't a plant? I always thought it was. But, nop, it's a "ratlike creature." Anyway, instead of the Stinksap being the cause of Harry and Neville's conciousness at the end of the book, what about Murtlap essence? It says in FB&***T that "when pickled and eaten, these Murtlap growths (resembling a sea anemone) promote resistence to curses and jinxes, though overdoes may cause unsightly purple ear hair." We know Harry was bathing his hand in it. Did Neville ever get a detention from Umb*tch? He doesn't seem the type....

WHERE ARE YOU GUYS!?!?!?! I MISS YOU!!!!! I'M ALL ALONE AND THIS POST IS GETTING IMPOSSBLY LONG FROM ME NOT DOUBLE-POSTING!!!!

I've got (hopefully) only one last thing to add before you all come back at last and reply. I was randomly getting children's songs stuck in my head today after school (you'd be surprised how very often that happens), and what should show up but the Kukubarra song. You know, Kukabarra sits in the old gum tree.
Merry, merry king of the bush is he.
Laugh, Kukabarra, laugh.
Kukabarra save some gum for me! And I was thinking.... Is there anyone in this series whose name sounds anything like Kukabarra? If so, I think we need to seriously consider them a prime suspect in the gum mystery. Just a thought. Guess I'm signing off AGAIN. Byez!

whizbang121

October 21st, 2003, 6:15 pm

Oh furry, I'm lost. GUM backwards is MUG. MUGWUMP?

What are the ingredients in gum? Sugar. Artificial colors and flavors. Chewy stuff?

silver ink pot

October 21st, 2003, 7:31 pm

Hi, Furry! Sorry, but I can't think of anything in the world that rhymes with kookaburra! I'll leave that one to you!

Found some stuff about the history of chewing gum. Two names stick out, Henry Fleer and Frank Fleer, brothers who invented a form of gum. Of course Frank Longbottom comes to mind, and for all we know Harry's name could be short for "Henry." Can't think of any names similar to "Fleer" except "Flint" - like the Slytherin named Marcus Flint.

Chewing gum was derived from plants originally, so maybe we can "take off" and talk about some of these plant names.

http://ndnd.essortment.com/chewinggumhis_rdjz.htm (http://ndnd.essortment.com/chewinggumhis_rdjz.htm)

In the early 1880s, two brothers, Henry and Frank Fleer, began experimenting with chicle, the sticky substance found inside a sapodilla tree. Henry Fleer covered the tasteless chicle with a sugary white coating and named his invention "Chiclets." Meanwhile, brother Frank put together a recipe for the world's first bubble gum, originally called "Blibber Blubber Bubble Gum." Though popular in their neighborhood, the Fleer's gum was never marketed or perfected and thus, never took off.

In 1848, the Curtis brothers were working on the same product in Maine. Using a Franklin stove and pure spruce tree resin, the brothers sold chewing gum for the first time in history, with an asking price of one penny for every two hunks. In 1850, after moderate success, the brothers left for Maine to work on their gum recipe. Adding paraffin and flavoring to their already popular concoction, the brothers opened the first major gum manufacturing plant, the Curtis Chewing Gum Factory.

As time went on, gums made from spruce became less popular, and were replaced with the Curtis brothers more chewable paraffin gums.

Around the same time, photographer Thomas Adams of New York tried his hand at the gum business, boiling down chicle in his home and selling small chunks of it to a local drug store. By 1871, he had so many orders to fill, he patented the popular gum giving machine (later named the gumball machine) just to keep up with business. Later that year, Adams patented another first of its kind: Flavored gum, after adding licorice flavoring to his recipe and naming his product, "Black Jack." Black Jack was not sold in chunks, but in stick form, and the public went wild!

BUBBLE GUM BY ACCIDENT

Frank Fleer was the inventor of bubble gum, but due to a product that was too sticky to enjoy, Blibber-Blubber never took off. In 1928, while attempting to make a new rubber product, bubble gum was accidentally founded by Walter Diemer, an accountant for the Fleer gum company. The 23 year old Fleer took his discovery to a local grocery store, where it sold out the first afternoon. Within months, the Fleer Chewing Gum Company in Philadelphia began making bubble gum using Diemer's recipe, and marketed the first-ever commercially sold bubble gum. Coloring it a playful pink and sending out bubble blowing teachers proved the perfect combination for Fleer. "Dubble Bubble," as it was known, was an instant success. In 1951, the Topps Company reinvented the popularity of bubble gum by adding a stick of it to a package of baseball cards, replacing their previous gift of a single cigarette. Children and parents went wild!

Here is also a movie reference that is interesting:

Trivia about Timecop [1994]:
While riding in the sled which will transport him into the future, Jean-Claude Van Damme takes out a stick of chewing gum called "Black Black", a brand of Japanese gum. During 1994, Van Damme appeared in television commercials for "Black Black" chewing gum in Japan.

So there is "Black Black" and up above, there was "Black Jack." We have Sirius Black and the Black family. Hmmm. Is this anything?

purplehawk

October 21st, 2003, 8:07 pm

Found some stuff about the history of chewing gum. Two names stick out, Henry Fleer and Frank Fleer, brothers who invented a form of gum. Of course Frank Longbottom comes to mind, and for all we know Harry's name could be short for "Henry." Can't think of any names similar to "Fleer" except "Flint" - like the Slytherin named Marcus Flint.

How about Fleur de la Coeur?

furryfreakferret

October 21st, 2003, 11:18 pm

awww... poor whiz. I lost him. Well I'll see if I can sum it up since I did throw a lot at you all. (How is it that you're never on and then one day, I'll come on and there'll be several posts?? Do you plan this together or something? Making me come here just to be disappointed by the lack of activity in this thread?)

Basically that whole long post was asking:

1) Why Eric Munch was at the Ministry at 1 AM to catch Sturgis and NOT there at midnight to catch the DEs and Harry and whether or not that could be a lead onto him being a DE.

2) What laburnum is. It's basically a poisonous plant but people used to believe it cured blindness which is the most interesting thing I found in all that.

3) Memory Potions as a new way that whoever is keeping the Longbottoms in their state and the fact that jobberknoll feathers would be one of the ingredients.

4) Murtlap being another possible thing that kept Harry and Neville on their fett at the end.

5) And just pointing out that if there's anyone whose name sounds like Kukubarra we probably ought to look at them rather than Sturgis.

As far as the gum inventors, all I'm picking up on is what you pointed out. Black and Frank. Though I agree with Hawk that Fleur might at least be spelled a bit like Fleer though what that means is beyond me.

Jill

October 21st, 2003, 11:26 pm

silver ink pot

October 22nd, 2003, 1:17 am

:welcome: Jill!

There is actually a thread that spun off from this one about the "Importance of Mirrors and Reflections." I'm convinced that is a major theme for JKR.

freaky: I understand what you are saying about Eric Munch! That is character we havent' talked much about, but you are so right! He was a "watchwizard" who caught Sturgis Podmore supposedly "breaking-in" to MOM! So he must be involved with the DE somehow, or he was conveniently elsewhere that night !

Here is one interesting thing about murtlap. It's anagram is "rat plum." I don't know if there is a real tree with that nickname - haven't found it yet. But the chicle tree, from whose fruit gum is made, has a yellow-brown plum-like fruit.:scared:

I keep coming back to the memory charms because I feel JKR is spending so much time with Lockhart for a major reason. Wish we knew the names of the other folks who were in the hospital ward with the Longbottoms.

I know I am clutching at straws the history of gum, :lol: , but I'm trying to keep this thread alive!

fruitia pickleweed

October 22nd, 2003, 4:03 am

Fellow seekers, it's time to confess, I'm pretty darn sure that the "secrets of the universe" (Rowling's universe) are indeed related to this thread. Riding back and forth on the subway to work every day, I have puzzled over anagrams, etc., and I can't totally figure it out, but maybe you can.

Here are just two of the things that stick in my mind like gum sticks to a shoe:

Drooble's Best Blowing Gum - Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction (OotP, Chapter 38). Look at it: DROOBLE,
DRUBBLY. And are both of them by any chance somehow related to DUmBLEdoRe? (Or "Dumbly-dorr," as Madame Maxine pronounces it.)

DOLORES UMBRIDGE contains DROOBLE'S GUM. The left-over letters spell DIRE or (de?)RIDE.

This is driving me crazy. I also have a notion there must be some relation beyond coincidence between DUMBledore and D.UMBridge.

I can't figure it out. I give up! Does someone else have any idea how (or whether) to put this all together?

If someone doesn't make sense of this soon, I will be submitting it as an article to The Quibbler! :)

whizbang121

October 22nd, 2003, 6:33 am

This is driving me crazy. I also have a notion there must be some relation beyond coincidence between DUMBledore and D.UMBridge. How did I miss all that dumb? Does it refer to a lack of speech?

If someone doesn't make sense of this soon, I will be submitting it as an article to The Quibbler! :)

I think I have a link for submissions. :agree:
~~~~~~~~``````````````~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of my daughters has suggested that if Lockhart recovers to some degree and he believes he perfomed all the exploits in his books, will the fact that he believes he did all those things actually give him the confidence to do them? She also thinks that he's basically a good guy and will help Harry if he becomes functional again. Personally, I'm hoping he's a red herring, but .............???

u know me

October 22nd, 2003, 9:21 pm

and some people solve the mysteries of the universe by reading a gum wrapper...

I like that. I really like that. So I looked up the ingredients on the web:
Common ingredients in gum are: sugar, gum base, corn syrup, softeners (like vegetable oil), flavoring, and coloring.
Gum base is mostly synthetic (plastics and rubber), but it may also contain a natural product called latex.
Natural latex is the sap from the trees of the rain forests. It is taken from the trees in much the same way as maple syrup.
Some kinds of latex used in gum bases are: Chicle from the sapodilla tree, jeultong and sorva from trees of the same names.

Maybe one of those things is what neville needs to cure his mom. or maybe defeat the Big V in someway.....maybe its all the trees are all related to his new wand. Like how voldemart's wand is yew, the tree of death. So maybe somehow, it will all relate. maybe i'm completely off-tracked......

furryfreakferret

October 22nd, 2003, 10:27 pm

Latex, eh? I'm allergic to that. Does that mean I have to leave or just keep it off my skin?

Anyway.... To our new hands :welcome:! There's a lot of you. Hooray! :clap: We've been needing some fresh ideas around here. I'll address everyone personally.

First off - Thanks, Jill! I've been saying from the start that this whole sticky mess could quite possibly be the key to Voldemort's downfall. Always nice to have support! :yes:

Second, inky. Hey that's right! I forgot about that thread! :whistle: hehe, and I started it too. Oops! So you think Eric could be a Death Eater too? Good. I was wondering if I was just thinking outside the box a bit too much. Kind of sprung from a story idea. Anyway.... "Rat plum?" I got nothing. Except that the rat could be our dear friend Peter Pettigrew. You know, was it just me, or was he not mentioned once in present-day OotP? As far as Lockhart, I don't think he's really got anything to do with it though I like whiz's childrens' (gosh! I feel young!) idea of him half believing he really did do all those things and it inspiring him to actually do such amazing things. How old are they, whiz? That's really insightful of them. I figured he was just there so we could laugh at him and his "joined-up writing."

Next, pickleweed, I don't think we ever even considered Umbridge being involved in all this, besides a joke that she would maybe end up in the Janus Thickley ward too. (By the way, inky I ought to thank you. We were reading about Janus in World Civializations and I felt all special when I knew who he was and some of the stories about him.) Maybe she is in there. Let's see.... "Dire Drooble's Gum." That sounds like another vote against it. (Of course, any association with Umbridge is.) But then, if it relates to Dumbledore, that's in its favor. So to bring back the old question: poison or remedial?

Hey, can I have the website for the Quibbler too? I found the recipe for Goblin Pie stashed away in Fudge's filing cabinet. hehe. Cornelius Fudge's Not-So-Famous Goblin Pie (http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1449995).

Jill

October 22nd, 2003, 10:39 pm

:lol: you found me out ... not.
Sorry. I should have mentioned that the quote came from DarkMark.com and picked up by Leaky Cauldron. It seems to have a thread of its own already.

Yeh I had the same problems somewhere else when I said 3 days before that annoucement that the first draft would probably come out on the 10th January. They all thought I was you know who then.

Ok its going to be freaky if I've right date too.

Yes well its the reflection thing, I'm telling you. She using reflections to tell us new stuff, like with the Ballakisk, the mirror in ss and the two way mirrors in OotP, which are going to be used again I think and now the silver bubble wrapping paper.

Reflection of the past me thinks.

morgan le fay

October 23rd, 2003, 3:56 am

what would mrs longbottom see if she were to look in the mirror of erised?? the key to all this gum wrapper business?? if only there were some way to see what someone else was seeing in the mirror

furryfreakferret

October 24th, 2003, 10:03 pm

Ooh! new people, new ideas! Hey, morgan! Poor freaky is stuck here while her younger sister has a Halloween party. Annoying children, screaming bloody mary for no reason at all. Anyone know how to Apparate?

You know, I'm still not convinced the the reflections have to do with the Longbottoms. True enough, it seems that they are EXTREMELY important but when have we ever gotten reference to Neville (or his parents) looking into a mirror, or seeing a reflection in the window, or water from Myrtle's bathroom. I also think we've seen the last of the baskilsk. How many monsters do you think Hogwarts can hold, Jill? Sirius's mirror, however, I'm almost POSITIVE will return. In the Mirrors and Reflection's thread we were talking about who has Sirius's now and took an educated guess of Narcissa Malfoy, what with Kreacher's alliance to them and her name making the reference to Narcissus who was so in love with his own reflection that he sat at the pool's edge until the gods turned him into a flower (Greek mythology). A little warning sign should be going up in your head at the thought.

As far as Alice's deepest desire, who knows?

Can I say one last thing before I go? Save me.

Masterfroggy

October 24th, 2003, 11:16 pm

[QUOTE=furryfreakferret]Ooh! new people, new ideas! Hey, morgan! Poor freaky is stuck here while her younger sister has a Halloween party. Annoying children, screaming bloody mary for no reason at all. Anyone know how to Apparate?

You know, I'm still not convinced the the reflections have to do with the Longbottoms. True enough, it seems that they are EXTREMELY important but when have we ever gotten reference to Neville (or his parents) looking into a mirror, or seeing a reflection in the window, or water from Myrtle's bathroom. I also think we've seen the last of the baskilsk. How many monsters do you think Hogwarts can hold, Jill? Sirius's mirror, however, I'm almost POSITIVE will return. In the Mirrors and Reflection's thread we were talking about who has Sirius's now and took an educated guess of Narcissa Malfoy, what with Kreacher's alliance to them and her name making the reference to Narcissus who was so in love with his own reflection that he sat at the pool's edge until the gods turned him into a flower (Greek mythology). A little warning sign should be going up in your head at the thought.
QUOTE]

The longbottoms hold a strange place for me, all the time I was reading the bit at the Hospital I kept on thinking about little thing that came up time and time again, Working nights I have a chance to think, for long periods of time uninterrupted, this is my pet theory, JKR is using Alice Longbottom as a way of telling us something about the Hospital, and that is why I think that the gum wrapper is important, why did she tell us the name so often, I dug out my free anagram maker (Anagram Genius 9) and put in the following

Drooble's best blowing gum

And it came back with about 999 meanless anagrams

but one of the best was

Gold Bribe below St Mungo's

this may be a "find because I was looking type of connection" but I think it is as important as any of the other anagrams found in the books

Nymphadora Tonks comes out as either,

Hot spy and no mark
or
On hand to mark spy

Masterfroggy

All new and improved
Harry Potter Encyclopaedia (Yes I have an anagram page)

www.masterfroggy1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Sorry I should have read the whole sixteen pages and I would have seen the post 4 pages back saying just what I have posted, my anagram was all my own work, well the AG9 own work

MasterFroggy

whizbang121

October 25th, 2003, 8:38 am

Well considering J.K.Rowling loves the reflection theme i.e. mirrors and everything, then if the gum is silver foiled, then there might be something in this. It could be a clue as to how to defeat Voldermort. Something to do with a reflection perhaps, ah the mirror of Erised maybe.
Is Alice giving Neville the tin foil wrapper? Or the paper wrapper? Does it say in the book?

[Book not handy.]

But if the words "Drobble's best etc. etc." are on the wrapper, I would guess it's the paper wrapper.

EvilRaven

October 25th, 2003, 9:32 am

Is Alice giving Neville the tin foil wrapper? Or the paper wrapper? Does it say in the book?

[Book not handy.]

But if the words "Drobble's best etc. etc." are on the wrapper, I would guess it's the paper wrapper.

OOTP english edition pg 455

Yeah it's Drooble's best gum wrapper, and it doesn't say whether its foiled or paper. but the way Mrs Longbottom acts it's like there a hidden message in that wrapper, some sort of hidden symbolisim.

But blowing the gum, makes the gum look like a bubble - which could represent the shape of prophecy in the DOM.

whizbang121

October 26th, 2003, 5:02 am

But blowing the gum, makes the gum look like a bubble - which could represent the shape of prophecy in the DOM.

That's a great idea!!!

MadMagic

October 26th, 2003, 5:56 am

Thats a great idea, but it seems like a bit of a stretch.
I'm not giving up hope for the Longbottoms to recover their sanity though.

morgan le fay

October 27th, 2003, 4:15 am

im sorry if this has been brought up in the past, but could mrs longbottom be trying to point neville to a person? a person associated with droobles? maybe there is someone who works for drooble or makes the gum who could be an important source of some information? or maybe droobles is the only kind of gum available at mungos :rolleyes:

maybe she is alluding to a bubble charm that can repell other spells that neville could use?? u know, like in video games where a transparent bubble/pod forms around you and all fire or nasty creatures in the game cant penetrate it.

whizbang121

October 27th, 2003, 6:15 am

Morgan, that makes me think of Neville's plant, something mimbletonia, and the stinksap. Remember how only Harry Ginny Luna and Neville were conscious at the end of the DoM battle? They were the ones who could hear something behind the veil, too. They were the ones who got sprayed with stinksap on the train. Hermione and Ron were off at prefects orientation.

edit
Wait a minute.
Gum is made with sap. Stinksap is sap.

............................ :huh:

morgan le fay

October 27th, 2003, 6:35 am

i think this may have been mentioned on the evolution of neville thread a few months ago, but could have sworn that there is an actual yellow mimulus plant that is said to allay fears and pain. but i dont think it is cactus like, as the mimbulus is. that is an interesting observation, about the sap, but it seems kind of far fetched. then again, almost everything on this thread is far fetched :lol:

silver ink pot

October 27th, 2003, 2:24 pm

Hi, morgan le fay! :blush:

To Paraphrase Willie Wonka (the candy man):

"We are the believers in the far fetched. We are the dreamers of dreams!"

I love this thread! Notice I added the Lex Luthor quote about the chewing gum wrappers to my signature! Go Neville!

:lol: :D :agree: :p

phoenixsong

October 27th, 2003, 5:39 pm

Remember how only Harry Ginny Luna and Neville were conscious at the end of the DoM battle? They were the ones who could hear something behind the veil, too. They were the ones who got sprayed with stinksap on the train. Hermione and Ron were off at prefects orientation.
only problem is, whiz, that it's not really true. there was great excitement back on the mimbulus mimbletonia thread at this idea, but on closer inspection, it was noted that neither Ginny nor Luna were conscious at the end of the battle:
Luna hit a desk, slid over its surface and onto the floor on the other side where she lay sprawled, as still as Hermione. (p. 797, Scholastic edition)
"Harry, it'll suffocate him!" screamed Ginny, immobilized by her broken ankle on the floor - then a jet of red light flew from one of the Death Eater's wands and hit her squarely in the face. She keeled over sideways and lay there unconscious. (p. 798)It is possible that both Harry and Neville ingested the sap; Harry certainly did, though it is unclear whether or not Neville caught it in the mouth. But they were the only two to be conscious and alert.

furryfreakferret

October 27th, 2003, 9:48 pm

Hmmm... I forgot about the "Gold Bribe below St. Mungo's." Thanks, froggy! If I rememeber that brought up some very circular discussions but good ones none the less. I just really hope Tonks isn't a spy! I like Tonks! By the way, :welcome: and to you to EvilRaven!

I suppose that Stinksap could be a sap...? I kinda thought sap was something trees had not... cactus-like magical plants from Assryia (sp? I should know that we did it in World Civ!). And the whole... um, what should I call it, invisble bubble repelly thing is an interesting thought too. hmmm...

Haha, actually, moragn, someone quoted that exact thread a little while ago. And yeah mimbulus mimbletonia is a real plant which supposedly gives shy people courage or something like that.

heh, me loves our far-fetched schemes too and that quote from Lex is awesome! Can threads have mottos? We outta adopt that one.

Oh, and welcome back MadMagic! hehe, "To our new hands, welcome. To our old hands, welcome back!"

purplehawk

October 27th, 2003, 10:07 pm

only problem is, whiz, that it's not really true. there was great excitement back on the mimbulus mimbletonia thread at this idea, but on closer inspection, it was noted that neither Ginny nor Luna were conscious at the end of the battle:It is possible that both Harry and Neville ingested the sap; Harry certainly did, though it is unclear whether or not Neville caught it in the mouth. But they were the only two to be conscious and alert.

Hmmm... Harry and Neville were the only two still conscious, eh? Interesting... especially when you consider they are also the only two boys born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied the Dark Lord.

Liselle

October 29th, 2003, 5:30 pm

I was just checking out Mugglenet.com a few mins ago and I saw that they had updated their anagrams with "thought provoking" additions...and this is definitely one!

Droobles Best Blowing Gum is an anagram of Gold bribe below St. Mungos

Very interesting.. in Book 5 Neville's Mum gives him a gum wrapper. Is she passing on an important message?
is Lucius Malfoy who we know donates frequently to St Mungos up to something?

Liselle

OrbitingElle

October 29th, 2003, 8:37 pm

I think the idea that she is giving them to him for some important reason is very likely. JKR is known for taking tiny details and making them important later. My guess is that it's more than just her randomly recognizing him and giving him trash.

Fuchsia

October 29th, 2003, 8:45 pm

That's an interesting idea. Even if it isn't a message about gold, it could be something else. It serves the story to show the painful effect on Neville but Rowling gets far more out of things than just what is on the surface.

Jill

October 29th, 2003, 8:46 pm

Love the anogram, who figured that out as I am impressed.

If the anogram is true then the bubble gum wrapper might be the only way Nevilles parents can get a message to there son asking for help.

Perhaps they are being kept against there will due to someone blackmailing one of the staff present at St. Mongos.

I think I might just go back and read very carefully what the nurse says in the chapter Christmas on the Closed Ward. Might have missed a clue in something she said, thats if the anograms true.

furryfreakferret

October 30th, 2003, 12:30 am

[size=1]Hey, everybody and I suppose I ought to say :welcome: again. I just love saying it. It means we're not going to be inactive and that we can have an excuse to throw another tea-party. So, anyway, welcome to Liselle, OrbitingElle, and really welcome because, hey, we're one of the first you came to! :D And Prefect Fuchsia. We've attracted the attentions of a prefect and it's NOT cuz we're breaking rules! I think that's a pat on the back. I'm in a weird mood.

First off, is Lucius Malfoy ever NOT up to something? If there is anything going on at Mungo's I bet 10 galleons he's behind it. And I bet he has an accomplice too - someone within the very confines of the hospital. What some people won't do for a bit of gold! It makes me sick! Now, I'm gonna take a guess here but rule #3 in the Unsloved Mysteries the Harry Potter Universe says: Never take the charecters' word for it. How likely is it that anything that comes into the hospital is first scanned, magically x-rayed, somehow tested to make sure it's safe and not some terrorist attempt. The hospital's a pretty important place and with so few government buildings in the wizarding world, a likely target. (Yes, I live in the US) Anyway, my point is, how'd a cutting of Devil's Snare make it into St. Mungo's anyway? Even over the Christmas rush it seems unlikely. Nope, we haven't heard the last of this story. I'm really starting to think we hit it with the "Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's" It's even got the apostraphe! Thanks, to whoever started that! :D

Btw, Jill, we mentioned the anagram some, 3, 4, pages back. I don't know. It was said before. Several times. Someone had it just on the last page I believe. Also, as to what the nurse whose name is not coming to me right now, but the one who was in charge of the Janus Thickley ward over Christmas, her. She mentioned that they try to cure their patients using "remidial potions," a phrase Snape uses several pages later as a cover up for Harry's Occulemncy(sp?) lessons, saying anyone who's seen him in his class has to agree he needs them. The word "remedial" can be two things (all of this was discussed earlier by the way, so if you're not so new here and have been with us since this discussion, you can just move on) - 1) it can mean "healing" or 2) it can mean "poor" we've all heard this used, I'm sure, around school. It's the lowest level classes offered. Hmmm... I don't think we pulled anything more from it excpet that ominous double meaning. Ooh! OLD HANDS COME BACK!!! NEW THOUGHT! Janus, Roman god of doorways and arches, beginnings and endings, is always drawn with two faces. To make the phrase even more ominous, what if that is what we're supposed to draw from the name of the ward - Janus Thickley - rather than the Longbottom's faking it. (Janus Thickley was a man who wrote a note to his family saying he was being attacked by a lethifold but was later discovered living with the landlady of the Green Dragon - he faked death, the Longbottoms faked insanity, or that was the connection we made.) Maybe the name refers to the two faces and the two meanings of "remedial." Gasp! We should worry now, I believe. :scared: for poor Longbottoms being kept insane by remedial potions.

Anyway, if you find anything else, Jill, let us know. I got Geometry homework to go finish and a Biology test to study for. See you all tomorrow!

Liselle

October 30th, 2003, 8:55 pm

[size=1] OLD HANDS COME BACK!!! NEW THOUGHT! Janus, Roman god of doorways and arches, beginnings and endings, is always drawn with two faces. To make the phrase even more ominous, what if that is what we're supposed to draw from the name of the ward - Janus Thickley - rather than the Longbottom's faking it. (Janus Thickley was a man who wrote a note to his family saying he was being attacked by a lethifold but was later discovered living with the landlady of the Green Dragon - he faked death, the Longbottoms faked insanity, or that was the connection we made.) Maybe the name refers to the two faces and the two meanings of "remedial." Gasp! We should worry now, I believe. :scared: for poor Longbottoms being kept insane by remedial potions.
thats brilliant!!! it really is, I never put Janus Thickley together with the lethifold and the name on the ward....there's no way that could be a co-incidence.......there's something so fishy going on with St Mungos and YES I do think Lucius is behind it (isn't he always in the background meddling and pulling the strings!)

must have a bit of a ponder on that now....

Liselle

morgan le fay

October 31st, 2003, 1:18 am

hmm....... beginnings and endings... always portrayed with 2 faces......

maybe someone who was a spy and traitor was responsible for the ultimate torturing of the longbottoms? u know what i mean, two-faced?? ;)
or maybe it means that bellatrix didnt act alone?

i cant make much of beginnings and endings... what began in the ward? their insanity didnt begin there, it began before they got there.... hmm... something to ponder :)

phoenixsong

October 31st, 2003, 10:42 am

Hmmm... Harry and Neville were the only two still conscious, eh? Interesting... especially when you consider they are also the only two boys born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied the Dark Lord.Exactly, my flying friend!

maybe someone who was a spy and traitor was responsible for the ultimate torturing of the longbottoms? u know what i mean, two-faced?? ;)
or maybe it means that bellatrix didnt act alone?Well, we know that her husband, brother-in-law, and Barty Crouch Jr. were also involved. But the Janus thing also makes me think of the J in "Remus J. Lupin". I adore Lupin, but can't help growing more and more suspicious of everyone as the books progress: maybe Sirius and James were right to suspect Lupin way back when. And he may also be "two-faced" in the fact that he is probably a twin (as in the orginal Romulus and Remus), or the "twinship" of his name refers to his dual nature (man and wolf).

Liselle

October 31st, 2003, 11:34 am

maybe Sirius and James were right to suspect Lupin way back when. And he may also be "two-faced" in the fact that he is probably a twin (as in the orginal Romulus and Remus), or the "twinship" of his name refers to his dual nature (man and wolf).
People have been speculating about his twin (if he exists) so maybe its to do with him....

Liselle

EvilRaven

November 1st, 2003, 3:13 am

harryfantotheend

November 1st, 2003, 3:23 pm

It's very possible that there is bribing going on, bribing concerning the Longbottoms. Also, i dont think that that AMAZING anagram (thanks mugglenet/whoever thought of it) could have been a coincidence....

Its also possible that the Longbottoms saw something (and Neville too...but the DE's put a memory charm on him...but thats another thread ;) ) that could ultimately lead to Voldemort's fall. Once they (and presumabley Neville) are cured (knock on wood) they might hold a vital secret...oh the possibilities...but we must wait until book 6 and 7 :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

furryfreakferret

November 1st, 2003, 11:24 pm

But the Janus thing also makes me think of the J in "Remus J. Lupin". I adore Lupin, but can't help growing more and more suspicious of everyone as the books progress: maybe Sirius and James were right to suspect Lupin way back when. And he may also be "two-faced" in the fact that he is probably a twin (as in the orginal Romulus and Remus), or the "twinship" of his name refers to his dual nature (man and wolf).

I hear you, phoe. Trust no one. Expect the unexpected. And, above all else, constant viglinece! Sadly, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I love Lupin as much as the next person, possibly more; it was for him my heart broke most when Sirius fell through the Veil, not for Harry or even for Sirius himself, Lupin and Phineas Nigellus who I'll openly admit to being rather fond of, despite his harsh comments - I found the ones aimed at Harry, at least, funny. The "J" in Remus J. Lupin has been something I've often wondered at because it is a fact Rowling gives us while not throwing any discernable clues our way to help solve the mystery, either. It's definatly something I think we've all at least put some thought to throughout the course of our shared obsession. At first, I thought it might stand for James, which, if you fall for the theory that James and Lupin may have switched bodies before the attack on the Pottters and that James was then forced to live out his life as Lupin under the influence of Polyjuice, I suppose it might work out to be true. However, I never bit. It just seems too... out on the limb, even for the Harry Potter series. That, and Neville being part amphibian (both, I may mention, wild theories from the same book: The Unsolved Mysteries of the Harry Potter Universe I believe it's called - a very good overall analysis of the first four for those of us who waste our time with websites like this, in case any of you are interested. Besides that, I would think James in Lupin would have been spared the ordeal of transformation, having never been bitten himself, though, who am I to say? If it turns out to be right, though, I'll have to eat Buckbeak. Apart from that, the likelihood that Lupin might have a twin (Romulus) and, as phoe pointed out, the dual nature of him, forced to live as both a man and a wolf - a part, I might add, he plays very well - refers to the two faces of Janus. Also, I can only suppose the death of Sirius will unhinge Lupin a bit, now having lost every childhood firend he ever had and having so few within his lifetime, none so close as the Maurauders who seem to be falling like flys, though I'm being stubbron in the fact that only Pettigrew will be allowed to kill Lupin, should it come to that (oh! I hope it doesn't! :uposet: ). I can imagine him doing something rash in order to get back at the one he blames for the death, too - Harry or Dumbledore, Dumbledore being more likely as we all know his trust must be mislaid sometime and that it would make sense for his death to come, by the hand of a "friend," whether directly or indirectly, in the next book so that Harry has to learn to stand alone before the final battle (where Neville will end up being the Dark Lord's bane anyway :) ). He might try to turn them in or kick them from Grimmauld Place so that Sirius's memory can be left in peace, resorting to telling tales to the Death Eaters when they refuse. That too makes Dumbledore the more likely; I doubt Harry's ever going near that place again - he'll blame himself for this one, you watch; if we thought Cedric's death was awful for him.... Anyway, I might also bring up another observation now we're, more or less, on the subject. I've been trying to sort everyone out and found a theory that works (reasonably) well. Just flow with me a moment. Those people whose names have their origins in Greek (Draco, Narcissa, Minerva, Heista, Hermione, I believe...) all seem to be those against the Dark Lord (with the possible exceptions of Narcissa and Draco; two books left and then we shall see). Those people whose names have their origins in Roman (Lucius, Cornelius, Regulus, Severus, who I do know is working for Dumbledore, however, because the trio and Sirius still deeply mistrust(ed) him, let's face it, we're sitting on the fence...) seem to be those attempting to hinder or even work against Dumbledore in favor of the Dark Lord (with the possible exception of Tiberius; there are just so many of them in Roman history I can't decide, with the information given, which one Tiberius Odgen is based upon). Remus is, or was, the one exception I found to that rule. Leaves a bit of an ominous ring when you think that it pairs him among such lowlives as Malfoy and Fudge. Anyway, it's just a theory. Do to it what you will. I'm not sure how it'll fair in the long run anyway. But maybe we ought to put a tab on Lupin, just in case.

As for "beginnings in the ward:" we actually had theorized that the Longbottoms condition was, perhaps, not so critical when they were first brought in, but that, whether by lack of treatment or "remedial" treatment, they were made worse afterwards, probably by the hand of a Healer bribed by Lucius Malfoy. And we were also going on for a while about the possibilty that an infamous gum-chewer - in our minds, Sturgis Podmore - was, in effect, responsible for the torturing of the Longbottoms. Sturgis would have fit morgan's "spy or traitor" as he was, at the time, an active member of the Order of the Pheonix. Was he sitting near the Longbottoms in Moody's photograph? Anyone remember? I'll check later at any rate. And for being deliberatly kept insane, if you'll look back, I believe we had it down to what ingredients they were using to do it! :lol: Let's see... what was it? Umm.... Can't remember sorry. Oh well, my lastest blurb. Hope it's been useful, and remeber, mean as that did sound, I LOVE Lupin!

rotsiepots

November 1st, 2003, 11:58 pm

What if Alice and Frank Longbottom are being deliberatly kept insane in the hospital? possibly by a bribe of some sort by a ambitious Healer or so forth by a Death Eater.

You might find this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=4609) thread in the Hall of Prophecy interesting if you're keen to pursue this theory. :)

GryffindorSeeker

November 2nd, 2003, 12:08 am

If the anogram is true then the bubble gum wrapper might be the only way Nevilles parents can get a message to there son asking for help.

Perhaps they are being kept against there will due to someone blackmailing one of the staff present at St. Mongos.

As for the message, maybe. But that would rather prove that his parents aren't insane, totally. I still find it weird that they are insane, when there whould be some magical remedy for it or one being made at least! And the whole thing with the staff not noticing that the plant was a devil's snare... something fishy is going on.

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2003, 4:51 am

fishy, all right. Lockhart and Bode improving, but not the Longbottoms.:huh:
Let's see... what was it? Umm.... Can't remember sorry. Oh well, my lastest blurb. Hope it's been useful, and remeber, mean as that did sound, I LOVE Lupin!
I think there was moonstone and ......;)

silver ink pot

November 2nd, 2003, 7:16 am

:elaugh: :lol: :D Whew! This thread is "on fire" like Snape during that first Quidditch Match!

I feel a sudden urge to recap a few things that we've covered in the past, for all those who don't want to read back fifteen pages :wow: !!!!!!!!!

Whizbang and Furry: I believe it was "hellebore" that was mixed with Moonstone to make the Draught of Peace. The potions class brews this, but Harry leaves out the hellebore, and Snape makes a big deal out of making Harry shout it out to the class.

Hellebore is a plant called the 'Christmas Rose' and was used to cure insanity in the Middle Ages. JKR called the chapter about the Longbottoms 'Christmas on the Closed Ward." Hellebore is also a poison, so it must be used with caution.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hellebore/msg0209503632436.html

"Hellebore - Madness and Delirium.
In Greek mythology, Melampus, the great seer, used this plant as a herb to cure the madness of King Proetus' daughters and other Greek women, who lost their minds and roamed wildly through the mountains and the desert of Tiryns, thinking they were cows. As a result, Melampus and his brother Bias gained a fortune (two thirds of King Proetus' kingdom) becoming the husbands of the princesses they had cured."
and:

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/helbla14.html

Once, people blessed their cattle with this plant to keep them from evil spells, and for this purpose, it was dug up with certain mystic rites. In an old French romance, the sorcerer, to make himself invisible when passing through the enemy's camp, scatters powdered Hellebore in the air, as he goes.
The following is from Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy: 'Borage and hellebore fill two scenes, Sovereign plants to purge the veins Of melancholy, and cheer the heart Of those black fumes which make it smart.'
The definition of Hellebore had a quote about witchcraft that led us to read the Magic writings of Sir Walter Scott, which were letters to his son-in-law named "Lockhart" and illustrated by "Cruickshanks. You can read them here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/scott/

We thought of the Draught of Peace because it can send someone into an irreversible sleep, according to Snape. We studied part of "Alice" in Wonderland where Alice talks to the Tiger-Lily in the 'Garden of Live Flowers" and the Tiger-lily tells her that some flowers can't talk because their beds are too soft and they sleep all the time (more "sleepy" clues). Here's the link:

http://sunsite.tus.ac.jp/coll/alice/alice_21.html

And since Furry brought it up again, it seems as if we talked for days about Lupin and his name. Because, his name looks like it is from "lupus" but it is also the name of a flower, Lupinus Perrenis:

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/plantsthatpoison.htm

Why is that important? Because we are told that Droobles blowing gum makes "Bluebell Bubbles" that last all day or for days. A Lupinus flower is called a "Bluebonnet." Egyptian Lupine is a plant used as food, and it is known as a "wolf bean." Also, there is a connection between Lupin and gum. Right before the boggart lesson in PoA, Peeves stops them in the hall and he is stuffing gum into a keyhole. Lupin teaches the children to say "Waddiwassi" and the gum flies out of the keyhole and up Peeve's nose. So this seems to connect Lupin to the world of chewing gum.

The actual flower known as a "Bluebell" is called "Hyacinthus" or "Culverkeys" (like Peeve's keyhole) and has interesting gummy properties:

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/bluebe60.html

Tennyson speaks of Bluebell juice being used to cure snake-bite.
The flowers have a slight, starch-like scent, but no medicinal uses have been ascribed to them.
The bulbs are poisonous in the fresh state. The viscid juice so abundantly contained in them and existing in every part of the plant has been used as a substitute for starch, and in the days when stiff ruffs were worn was much in request. From its gummy character, it was also employed as bookbinders' gum.
Gerard informs us that it was also used for setting feathers upon arrows. De Candolle (1778-1841) suggested that the abundant mucilage might be put to some economic purpose.

I'm probably leaving twenty ideas out, but you'll just have to scan backwards for more! I love the anagram about the Bribe! That is brilliant and it fits with Malfoy so well!

purplehawk

November 2nd, 2003, 9:43 am

Gold bribe below St. Mungo's, eh? That is incredible. Do we know who unscrambled that one? If it's one of our members, he or she should be taking a bow! :clap: :clap:

Puffskein

November 2nd, 2003, 11:32 am

Someone's probably mentioned it before, but the Malfoys made a donation to St Mungo's (said Fudge at the Quidditch World Cup). If anyone is making bribes to keep the LOngbottoms insane, it could well be the Malfoys.

It's fun to speculate about Lupin's middle name, but I know many, many people with J as a middle initial, so it may well mean nothing. If you asked me I'd say it stands for Julius, which is the name I gave his father in a fanfic I wrote. I gave Roman names to all the male Lupins to make Remus's symbolic name seem less weird.

phoenixsong

November 2nd, 2003, 12:12 pm

Those people whose names have their origins in Roman ...I don't know if this will put your worries aside, but you left a major one out: Albus. I don't think that the division between Greek/Roman name origins really pans out. After all, Sirius is a Latin adaptation of a Greek word, Minerva is actually a Roman, not a Greek name (well actually, its originally Etruscan). So I don't think that is enough to implicate Remus in dark doings. But it is my new theory that the reason that Sirius switched with Peter as Secret Keeper is because he was pretty certain that Remus was the spy, and had to keep up the pretense of going through the Fidelius Charm for his sake. We learn in PoA that Sirius suspected Remus as the spy, but Remus was also one of their closest friends and would have to be told about the Fidelius Charm, which necessitated the switch.

Oh, and on the Longbottoms being deliberately kept insane by a gum-chewer: don't forget that we also made the connection to Tonks' bubble-gum pink hair.

And, hi, silver ink pot! Nice to see you again! Don't forget all that discussion of mirrors and mirroring that eventually found its way to a new thread (here: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13006 ).

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2003, 3:12 pm

Dedalus Diggle

November 2nd, 2003, 5:10 pm

Thanks SIP and phoenixsong for the important recap. We dissected the St Mungo's bribe anagram somewhere, too, but I can't remember if it was on this thread. I hope we're not running out of ideas. :shrug:
I'm going to archive this thread on my hard drive because I think it contains some of the most brilliant discussions. Someday, one of my kids can use all this stuff to work on a master's degree. ;)

One of the anagram solutions found was "Goblins were sold tomb bug" :huh: We were discussing anagrams on page 3 when I proposed that one (at the end of the page), along with a potential plot. I am roughly half-way into posting a fanfic based on that plot, although I have changed several plot details to make a better story. :D It's called "Harry Potter and the Goblins' Tomb Bug." Y'all come! Make comments. Much thanks to those that do. :tu:

fruitia pickleweed

November 2nd, 2003, 10:28 pm

Fantastic botany on bluebells!

This is a totally irresponsible suggestion, but that "Tomb Bug" anagram makes me think of Edgar Allen Poe's story "The Gold Bug," which involves a hidden treasure and a secret code to its location. Maybe we should be looking at other types of codes, as well as anagrams, in the books generally. It's a while since I read "The Gold Bug" and I'm not really good at word puzzles, but maybe someone else out there makes a hobby of codes?

silver ink pot

November 3rd, 2003, 6:11 am

Oh, and on the Longbottoms being deliberately kept insane by a gum-chewer: don't forget that we also made the connection to Tonks' bubble-gum pink hair.

And, hi, silver ink pot! Nice to see you again! Don't forget all that discussion of mirrors and mirroring that eventually found its way to a new thread (here: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13006 ).

Thanks, Phoenixsong! I'll try to get over to the mirror thread as soon as I can! How could I have forgotten the bubble-gum hair of Tonks!

Whizbang! Yes, this thread will still be going when our children are in college, lol. It is our legacy for their college education!:lol:

Fruitia: I keep thinking about "The Gold Bug" and I'm going to read it tomorrow. My daughter just got a complete copy of Edgar Allen Poe's works as a Halloween present!

I was reading somewhere about Professor Trelawney being described as looking like a colorful insect, and there is always something "buzzing" in her classroom. I think this is not just related to Rita Skeeter! Anyway, we've got to find out about the "Tomb Bug"!

phoenixsong

November 3rd, 2003, 10:37 am

Hi, folks, for those of you who are interested, here's a link to the works of Poe online:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/POE/contents.html
You'll find The Gold Bug there among the rest. I suspect it may yield something of interest. See you later, after reading!

Dedalus Diggle

November 3rd, 2003, 1:30 pm

Explanation of the Tomb Bug: In research for my Tomb Bug fanfic, I found that In ancient Egypt, the scarab beetle was considered the representation of both the Sun God and the idea of resurrection. The scarab beetles are a large family of quite handsome beetles. A very large percentage of them are the various types of dung beetles. The rolling of balls of dung across the desert was thought to be reminiscent of the sun being rolled across the sky by Ra (sungod), so Ra was often pictured as a scarab. Also a scarab could be observed going under ground with their dung balls and then months later, long after the beetle should have been dead, a scarab would emerge. Of course we know now that the emergent beetle is the young of the first, which buried the dung ball for the egg to hatch and live in to reach adulthood. Nonetheless, the notion of being buried and then emerging alive was seen as the embodiment of resurrection. Therefore the scarabs became associated with power, resurrection and immortality. Of course, this made them very popular and common as subjects for jewelry and tomb ornamentation - a combination prayer to the eternal sungod and for resurrection. And of course death was as big a preoccupation of the ancient Egyptians (well, at least the ruling classes) as it is for Voldy.

Liselle

November 3rd, 2003, 2:52 pm

this thread is FLAMING! Love the ideas...now to sift through them in my head to make sense of it all!

Liselle

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2003, 6:36 pm

this thread is FLAMING! Love the ideas...now to sift through them in my head to make sense of it all!

Liselle
If you like this, wait until you see Alice Longbottom in Wonderland and the Alchemy threads. :eyebrows: ;)

Sabine

November 4th, 2003, 11:12 am

I love this thread - though I haven't read anything.

I surely don't want to spoil it - but there was a question poping up in my mind for some days about those anagrams....

I think if there were important anagrams to find in addition to Lord Voldemorts - then JKR would have made sure that those anagrams could be found in all the languages HP is translated to.

This definitely goes for Tom Marvolo Riddle. In the german edition his name is: Tom Vorlost Riddle so that the "I'm" can be matched.

So to have that "Goblins were sold tomb bug." out of "Droobles Best Blowing gum", work I should be able to get something alike out of the "Bubbels bester Blaskaugummi" (thats how its called in the german edition) and that - I'm afraid isn't so :(

Sabine

purplehawk

November 4th, 2003, 1:46 pm

You know, Sabine, I never thought of that. I'm not a big fan of anagrams, anyway, though. I think JK played that trick with Tom Riddle and isn't likely to play it again. On the other hand, I like the gum anagram and I am somewhat disappointed to see it debunked so thoroughly. :frown:

Sabine

November 4th, 2003, 1:53 pm

Sorry purplehawk - I won't do it again - I promise :no: :shrug:

Sabine

purplehawk

November 4th, 2003, 3:06 pm

Not to worry. You just provided a much-needed reality check for me and not a few others, Sabine.

whizbang121

November 4th, 2003, 3:47 pm

NYCwitch920

November 4th, 2003, 4:10 pm

Sabine,
In the German edition, when Voldemort talks about his mother naming him, is he named Vorlost for his grandfather as in the English?
I like anagrams but this one has been difficult. Maybe it is a cryptogram as in Poe's Gold Bug. Or some other kind of clue all together. But it must mean something, or JKR wouldn't have mentioned it so often and so prominently in OotP.

I'm somewhat confused about what you said about Voldemort being named Vorlost. Didn't someone else say in a post that it was used in that way to create the word "I'm" in German. It couldn't be Marvolo if it needed to be written in German. :scared: I'm very confused right now.
Anyways, going back to the topic of the thread, I think that the gum wrappers were just a sign of appreciation from Neville's mom. It's a really sad thing to read but I guess it was just to show that she recognized him or was just a sign of love. I don't think it represented anything truly significant to the plot. It was just something related to his relationship with his parents. I do believe that Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom might be useful in the Order's fight against Voldemort. They might be holding useful information. I don't think anyone would really question them, being in the current state of mind they are. I don't think anyone would have the heart to have them relive their worst moments.

Sabine

November 4th, 2003, 4:44 pm

Sabine,
In the German edition, when Voldemort talks about his mother naming him, is he named Vorlost for his grandfather as in the English?

Yes whizbang, in the german edition he is named Vorlost after his grandfather.

So in the english version he (in CoS) paints Tom Marvolo Riddle in the air and make the letters change into: "I am Lord Voldemort"

in the german edition he paints Tom Vorlost Riddle and the letters change to "ist Lord Voldemort".

I like anagrams but this one has been difficult. Maybe it is a cryptogram as in Poe's Gold Bug. Or some other kind of clue all together. But it must mean something, or JKR wouldn't have mentioned it so often and so prominently in OotP.

now I am confused ... which anagram are you referring to? The Voldemort one or the one about that gum-wrapper?

Sorry to have caused confusion NYCwitch920. I just wanted to give my two knuts about that anagram thing :)

Sabine

purplehawk

November 4th, 2003, 5:49 pm

I don't know about the others, but it was the gum wrapper thingy that disappointed me. I confess to really wanting to see the Longbottoms rescued from their malaise and madness.

Dedalus Diggle

November 4th, 2003, 6:03 pm

Sabine

November 4th, 2003, 6:15 pm

No - for heavens sake Dedalus.... don't do that!!

Its fan-fiction after all ...

sometimes I really should keep my big mouth shut :(

Sabine

Dedalus Diggle

November 4th, 2003, 6:35 pm

No - for heavens sake Dedalus.... don't do that!!

Its fan-fiction after all ...

sometimes I really should keep my big mouth shut :(

Sabine

Not at all - it really was a great observation. It has me wondering how they pulled off the trick in other languages - anyone?

And no, I'm too far into the fanfic to pull the plug now. I was just being absurd.

Azimuth

November 4th, 2003, 7:06 pm

I think that Neville's grandmother giving Neville bubble gum wrappers was included simply to illustrate her madness further, and to make us hate Bellatrix Lestrange more, making the melée in the veil room more effective on the reader.

whizbang121

November 5th, 2003, 6:04 am

WE've been talking about certain spells requiring specific emotions on another thread. The Patronus, the Ridikkulus and the Crutatius all require a certain emotion for them to work properly. Could the gum wrappers be a clue to a spell of some kind? Does gume elicit an emotion that could be necessary for a spell to work?
What's blue?

silver ink pot

November 5th, 2003, 3:52 pm

The gum wrappers were indeed a wrenching moment. Purplehawk's latest comment reminded me of someone else who gets trash for gifts - Harry. Is there some connection between the awfult gifts Harry gets from the Dursleys and the wrappers Neville gets from his mother. Perhaps a protective charm is at work.

Daedalus: I think this is a great point! There is not much difference between a gum wrapper and a tissue, is there? It's interesting that most of the presents Harry has received from adults have either been anonymous, like his two brooms, or really bad, like the Dursley's presents. Other children have given him the best presents, such as Hermione's broomstick servicing kit. Mrs. Weasley always gives him the same thing. a sweater and mince pies, which could be called "clothing and food," and not really a present at all.

I had written earlier that I was going to re-read "The Gold Bug" by Edgar Allen Poe, and I did. A man named "Legrand" is staying on an island off the coast of South Carolina with a freed slave named "Jupiter." The narrator gets invited out to visit them, and is shown a specimen of scarab beetle which is a golden color and has a 'death head' on it. An old piece of a pirate's treasure map is also found with the "bug" and the three men go off through the woods to find the location of some gold. What seemed significant to me is that throughout, Legrand seems to be insane, yet the main character follows him and so does Jupiter, his servant. The treasure is discovered when Jupiter climbs a tree and finds a skull nailed to a branch. He drops the bug on a string through an eyehole of the skull to find out where to dig on the ground. Jupiter makes a mistake the first time and drops it through the wrong hole. In the end, they find a vast treasure that had been hidden by pirates, along with a few skeletons as well.

Two important points: The treasure is totally gold, without an ounce of silver. That statement jumped out at me because of all the discussion we have had on other threads about all the silver references in OotP.

And the second point is that the map they use is magical. It first appears to Legrand to be plain blank parchment, but when he puts it over a flame the words appear. Very interesting parallel to the Marauder's Map.

There are also many Alchemy references in this story, which I think I will post over on that thread. I found a good article on that. If you read it, note that at one point Poe makes a reference to a tree, and purposefully seems to change the scientific name to make a point. That reminds me of 'Mimbulus Mimbletonia' which is a little different from the real plant name "Mimulus."

This article is really deep!

http://www.eapoe.org/pstudies/ps1970/p1971101.htm
The Uses of Alchemy in Poe's "The Gold Bug"

"In the nineteenth century, the noun "bug" was in fact a slang term for "madman," while "to bug" (or "to humbug") was a transitive verb meaning to deceive, impose on, or hoax."

So we have "tomb bug" and "gold bribe below St. Mungo's" - this has to be a clue!

whizbang121

November 5th, 2003, 4:22 pm

Any hope of approaching
Droobles Best Blowing Gum
as a cryptogram as in the Gold Bug?
Either 'O' or 'B' could be the letter e.
Not much to work with, but........

Liselle

November 5th, 2003, 4:36 pm

phoenixsong

November 5th, 2003, 5:28 pm

Any hope of approaching
Droobles Best Blowing Gum
as a cryptogram as in the Gold Bug?
Either 'O' or 'B' could be the letter e.
Not much to work with, but........Ah, but don't we run into the same problem with the issue of translation? For Bubbels bester Blaskaugummi would have to have a similar configuration of letters: not the same letters of course, but the same ratio of numbers. But I don't think it does: the German name has 5 "b"s and there are not 5 of any single letter in the english name.

Thanks, silver ink pot, for the research on Poe and the Gold Bug, and the link to the alchemy article.

Just to verify, Sabine: "Goblins" remain "goblins" in the German translations, right?

Sabine

November 5th, 2003, 7:21 pm

Ah, but don't we run into the same problem with the issue of translation? For Bubbels bester Blaskaugummi would have to have a similar configuration of letters: not the same letters of course, but the same ratio of numbers. But I don't think it does: the German name has 5 "b"s and there are not 5 of any single letter in the english name.

Thanks, silver ink pot, for the research on Poe and the Gold Bug, and the link to the alchemy article.

Just to verify, Sabine: "Goblins" remain "goblins" in the German translations, right?

I wouldn't have disagreed in the first place when the name of the gum in the german translation would have remained "Droobles best blowing gum" ... the anagram would still have been there.

I've triplechecked on the Goblins and I'm sorry they are "Kobolde" in german.
:sigh:

Sabine

silver ink pot

November 6th, 2003, 7:14 am

Sabine

November 6th, 2003, 10:06 am

Sabine: It would be great if JKR's work could be translated into twenty languages and retain the anagrams for each one in each language. But how could that be possible? I don't really understand why Voldemort's name has to be changed for any translation. JKR would have to be God in order to make all he anagrams come out the same way in every language.

But I believe there are many anagrams in these books. I found one yesterday that I have not seen mentioned anywhere and it is not a name, but in English it is meaningful! It is in GoF, when Mrs. Weasley brings the school supplies home, she gives Harry his "dress" robes and they are described as "bottle-green." I found that a strange color for JKR to use descriptively, so I stared at it for a while and realized it is an anagram for "enter goblet." I think JKR hides anagrams in alot of her descriptions.

I can understand your frustration with a book translated from another language. I have read translated books and wondered if the language was totally changed and whether I was having the same experience as someone who can read the book in its original language.

As an English-speaking American, I was angry when I heard that the British translation was different! Do they think our children are so slow that they can't learn British terms for things? I grew up reading The Borrowers and The Wind in the Willows and Charles Dickens and Charlotte Bronte!

I don't think that JKR had to be god or something... ok this wouldn't make sense fot the bottle green - but if she had an anagram in Droobles best blowing gum, she could have asked the translaters to leave their fingers away from that word. I would assume that 99,7% of the readers would have known whats is is if it would have been not translated.

I can't believe it too - but the translator feels the need to translate every simple thing.... Sirius Black was Sirius Schwarz in the first Book, when he showed up again later he was Sirius Black again. Its just plain stupid. I wonder what the will make out of the Crumple-Horned Snorkack. Well I will see - because I'm (sometimes) a nice mum, so I make sure that my daugther gets to read the german edition of Harry Potter.

For the most anagrams I think its just coincidence - but IF there were any which are supposed to mean something important, I think JKR would have told the translators that. So that they could stick to the meaning of the anagram and in case of the bubblegum not translate it all or name that gum in a way that the sense of the anagram can be found.

Sabine

Liselle

November 6th, 2003, 10:28 am

IF there were any which are supposed to mean something important, I think JKR would have told the translators that. So that they could stick to the meaning of the anagram and in case of the bubblegum not translate it all or name that gum in a way that the sense of the anagram can be found.

I have to agree with you on that one, somethings need to be changed but any anagrams that are important would be maintained by the translators.....for my part I'm looking forward to the Irish translations...should be interesting!
Liselle

phoenixsong

November 6th, 2003, 10:28 am

Sabine

November 6th, 2003, 10:57 am

I agree with Sabine that JKR would have requested that "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum" remain untranslated if an anagram of it were the key to the Longbottom's insanity or cure. However, I presume that Bubbels bester Blaskaugummi has the same effects as Drooble's: those bluebell-coloured bubbles that refuse to pop for days. So perhaps it is something about the gum, or about Mr. Drooble/Bubbel.

And thanks, Sabine, for telling me that the goblins are Kobolde in the german editions. That works even less as part of an anagram from "Bubbels bester Blaskaugummi"! (which is why I was asking: but two "o"s from a name with none!)

Anytime phoenixsong :)

So what could it possibly be that makes the bluebell-coloured bubbles last for days? Maybe this is really the ancle it should be looked at.

Maybe its some sticking charm? not the permanent like Sirius' mother did to the tapestry or her picture....

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but to me it seems interesting that she should keep tose empty gumwrappers in the first place. And she only keeps the paper wrappers and not the silver ones ....

Weird ... I think there is something to it.

Sabine

phoenixsong

November 6th, 2003, 11:08 am

Good thinking, Sabine.

The sticking charm seems to be like some sort of magical glue, so I don't know that that would be the answer. The people to ask would be the twins! No doubt they've already got a start on their version of gum to compete against Drooble's. Perhaps the question to be asked is how to NOT have the bubbles be permanent. Don't the twins have some of their greatest difficulty in making their "special effects" STOP? So perhaps there is an ingredient in Drooble's that causes the bubbles to eventually pop, after a few days, when otherwise they would just exist forever.

furryfreakferret

November 6th, 2003, 10:08 pm

Hey! New people!!!! Hi, new people!!!!!!! *waves* (We have a "Supreme Mugwump?")

Thanx for the recap, inky; I think we all needed it - and welcome back!! :D I certainly wasn't going to go through 15 some odd pages of information, and hundreds of theories to find the important ones. You're a life-saver! (The candy kind in honor of Halloween.)In Greek mythology, Melampus, the great seer, used this plant as a herb to cure the madness of King Proetus' daughters and other Greek women, who lost their minds and roamed wildly through the mountains and the desert of Tiryns, thinking they were cows. hehe, oue English teacher missed that myth. Very funniful. See my siggy? It's talking about the cows of Helios which Odysseus's crew so unwsiely ate. I forgot that whole bluebell thing related to Lupin. :scared: That conversation certainly did go days and I think it left us still undecided, probably because we threw to totally different plants into the mixing bowl. I hate it when that happens. Gee, for a thread about Neville, we sure talk about anything but.

Thankx for pointing out the errors, pheo! Definatly need them in there. Not a very happy theory, if it imcriminates Lupin (though it does mean Narcissa and Draco are in the clear :) ). Yeah, I knew Minerva's Roman, actually, or rather Etruscan, as you say. I am (or was :upset: ) reading the Odyssey and so am always going back and forth between Minerva and Athena, as they're really one and the same. Very confusing when I'm supposed to be learning Greek mythology but using the Roman names because it connects with Harry Potter. hehe, don't tell Mrs. B. As for Albus, yeah, all right, you got me there. Not really anything bad you can say against Dumbledore unless Rowling's plotting to pull the rug out from beneath us all; I don't think she'd be cruel enough to make Dumbledore evil, it'd be too weird. And as for Sirius I shant speak ill of the dead.

A master's degree? From this stuff, whiz? You'll have to post it later too. ;) I'd love to see what colledges make out of that.

Hey, Dedalus - you're back!! Long time no see! (I'm really saying nothing in this post am I? :shrugs: ) Is your fanfic in the Library? I'd like to see it. What's it called? Anyway, yep, there was "Goblins were sold tomb bug" too. I remember you had really good evidence for that and made it sound perfectly reasonable. (Where's Rowling when you need her, eh?)

Oh! gosh! I missed bunches!!! My computer froze, I had an after school meeting, and then my internet was being b*tchy and saying "no such device or service" about every site I wanted to visit!! So all those were comments on the last page, though I'll carry over the welcomes.

Well, personally, I'm divided on the anagram debate. I rather doubt Rowling would pull something like that on us. But then again, it's hidden well enough and I can see it playing out with hope fading away, a gum wrapper falling from Neville's pocket or something, and Hermione, genius that she is, coming out with it. Plus, the things we've managed to find are AMAZING!!! My friend asked me if I'd seen the anagram on mugglenet ("Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's) and I got all defensive and had to explain how we had - what are we up to? - 17 pages on that. :lol: Furry needs a life.

WE've been talking about certain spells requiring specific emotions on another thread. The Patronus, the Ridikkulus and the Crutatius all require a certain emotion for them to work properly. Could the gum wrappers be a clue to a spell of some kind? Does gume elicit an emotion that could be necessary for a spell to work?
What's blue?Nice one, whiz! I hadn't even considered that or yet connected that the Cruciatus was a display of emotion. Emotion, sickening. But yeah, I can see something like that. Seeing his parents makes Neville "blue" and his mother gives him bubblegum wrappers from a gum that creates bluebell bubbles that refuse to pop for days. (Ooh! imagine chewing that in class!!!)

Were there a lot of silver refrences in OotP? Must go check.

Er... whiz? What's a "cryptogram?" Never learned that one in English.... :huh:

Can I be useful now? Okay. I was looking something up for my World Civ. class the other day and guess what my dear friend Mr. Dictionary showed me!? Right between two Greek myths was helebore!! It's a poisonous plant, to refresh your memories, used in the... Calming Draught (along with moonstone). Also, and this may have been metioned before - I think it has - it's a memeber of the Lily family. Then, because I am "the Kat that Kuriosity Killed," I went and looked up asphodel. (My spelling may be wrong but anyway...) This one has, to my knowledge, not been discussed on this thread yet. First off, it's another member of the Lily family. It's also the plant that grows in Erebos, basically "limbo" to the ancient Greeks. It's the dark region all the souls must pass through before they reach Hades. It's also used in to make the Draught of Living Death, a potion which casts the drinker into an irreversible sleep, mentioned by Snape in Book 1. Notice how both can send a person into irreverisible sleep and how both are members of the Lily family? Just food for thought. Thought we could use a snack.

And Dedalus, you are NOT deleting your fanfic!! We write for ourselves, not the people and you can't let in scarring words hurt you. Whenever someone says something like that, you look them in the eye and firmly say, "Artistic liscence." Got that? You are NOT deleting it, it's not worth listening to scarring critism. Just walk away. *glares to make sure he does it*

Anyway, my piece. Sorry it's so long and pointless.

Btw, any Americans not so loyal to our president or even others from beyond the borders - you have GOT to read this (http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/08/glacel-a-08-22.html)! It's hilarious! Or, at least I think so. It's comparing our government system with the Ministry of Magic. hehe, aren't I loyal?

rotsiepots

November 6th, 2003, 11:11 pm

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but to me it seems interesting that she should keep tose empty gumwrappers in the first place. And she only keeps the paper wrappers and not the silver ones ....

What do you mean by "silver ones"? I know gum wrappers used to have a silver colour to them, but most gum nowadays is wrapped in paper (well, the gum that I intermittently chew is). It could just be that Drooble's Best Blowing Gum is wrapped in paper, not that silvery material.

Lupin_Lady

November 6th, 2003, 11:21 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again- everything is in the text for a reason.
It may not mean anything huge, but it shows definately that Neville loves his mum beyond words. He keeps her **** rubbish, coz it's from her. What a heart! :love:

Dedalus Diggle

November 6th, 2003, 11:21 pm

Hey, Dedalus - you're back!! Long time no see! (I'm really saying nothing in this post am I? :shrugs: ) Is your fanfic in the Library? I'd like to see it. What's it called? Anyway, yep, there was "Goblins were sold tomb bug" too. I remember you had really good evidence for that and made it sound perfectly reasonable. (Where's Rowling when you need her, eh?)

Well, personally, I'm divided on the anagram debate. I rather doubt Rowling would pull something like that on us. But then again, it's hidden well enough and I can see it playing out with hope fading away, a gum wrapper falling from Neville's pocket or something, and Hermione, genius that she is, coming out with it. Plus, the things we've managed to find are AMAZING!!! My friend asked me if I'd seen the anagram on mugglenet ("Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's) and I got all defensive and had to explain how we had - what are we up to? - 17 pages on that. :lol: Furry needs a life.

Er... whiz? What's a "cryptogram?" Never learned that one in English.... :huh:

And Dedalus, you are NOT deleting your fanfic!! We write for ourselves, not the people and you can't let in scarring words hurt you. Whenever someone says something like that, you look them in the eye and firmly say, "Artistic liscence." Got that? You are NOT deleting it, it's not worth listening to scarring critism. Just walk away. *glares to make sure he does it*

Anyway, my piece. Sorry it's so long and pointless.

Well, since you ask about the fanfic, it's at http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=19412
It's called Harry Potter and the Goblins' Tomb Bug. Besides the anagram theory it draws on a lot of other theories, both from The Quibbler and things we have hatched on the Boards here. By the way, there is a "Dedalus" - before I realized the name was taken, I adopted the identity of Dedalus Diggle. Oh, well. We can't all have such a unique moniker as yours. Yes, I had lost track of this thread for awhile. I think it was when we got deep into the plant lore. And no, I won't delete the fanfic - I was joking because of Sabine's excellent observation that the anagram doesn't seem to work in other languages, even though JKR made sure the "Tom Marvolo Riddle" anagram worked in translations (I still get a kick out of Voldemort's middle name being 'Elvis' in French - do you think he sang "You ain't nothin' but a hounddog" to Sirius?)

A cryptogram is one of those word puzzles where one letter is substituted for another.

And since you were so gracious as to ask about my fanfic, I'm going to trot over there and post two more short chapters I've just finished proofing. But there's a price - I want comments *glares to make sure she does it* :-D

And yes, the post did kind of ramble, but it was spirited enough that it was by no means tedious.

Sabine

November 7th, 2003, 7:39 am

What do you mean by "silver ones"? I know gum wrappers used to have a silver colour to them, but most gum nowadays is wrapped in paper (well, the gum that I intermittently chew is). It could just be that Drooble's Best Blowing Gum is wrapped in paper, not that silvery material.

erm - come to think of it ... there are different gumwrappers... I've always thought that it would be of the sort I attaches below. I think this is why I used to chew those long years ago...

You know - push it out of the paper strip - unwrap the silvery thing.... and chew ...what is a typical english - kids-gum?

If someone tells me the name I'm almost sure google will provide a picture.

Sabine

Liselle

November 7th, 2003, 11:14 am

erm - come to think of it ... there are different gumwrappers... I've always thought that it would be of the sort I attaches below. I think this is why I used to chew those long years ago...

You know - push it out of the paper strip - unwrap the silvery thing.... and chew ...what is a typical english - kids-gum?

If someone tells me the name I'm almost sure google will provide a picture.

Sabine
I think Ice White does nicely! Otherewise you're into DoubleMint and stuff :)

purplehawk

November 7th, 2003, 12:55 pm

Bazooka was the bubblegum I grew up with. It was a big pink chunk of gum wrapped in waxy paper, twisted at each end. The paper itself contained a cartoon comic of Bazooka Joe and sometimes other little tidbits of information. Very cool bubblegum.

Sabine

November 7th, 2003, 2:06 pm

Would be sort of usefull to know how wizards wrap their gum ... would it make a difference if Alice gave Neville paperwrappers or silvery ones?

Sabine

purplehawk

November 7th, 2003, 2:18 pm

Would be sort of usefull to know how wizards wrap their gum ... would it make a difference if Alice gave Neville paperwrappers or silvery ones?

Sabine

One would think so! If the wrappers were like the ones I've described, printed all over with cartoons (as Bazooka did), or jokes, or brain teasers... there could well be something printed upon the wrappers that could be a clue as to what happened to them, or the continued nature of their illnesses.

Dedalus Diggle

November 7th, 2003, 8:14 pm

Since we are speculating madly, could the shape of the gum be of interest - in 'our' world, bubble gum comes shaped like a small cork (Double Bubble, I think), a small matchbox (Bazooka), sticks like Doublemint or smaller sticks like Trident (I know, neither of those are bublle gums, but I can't remember the other brand names), thin flat rectangles the size of baseball cards (which, coincidentally, are the kind that come with baseball cards), shreds (Big League Chew, which resembles pink chewing tobacco), or ... well, that's all I know of.

furryfreakferret

November 7th, 2003, 11:47 pm

I still get a kick out of Voldemort's middle name being 'Elvis' in French - do you think he sang "You ain't nothin' but a hounddog" to Sirius?

hehe, yes. and... oh no wait! that's the beetles. I was going to say, "Hard Days Night" but I suppose not, eh? :frown: oh well. but that would be hillarious! slowly i'm compiling things to write one of those senseless fanfics and i think that just made it on the list. actually, my first senseless fic will be titled "50 Ways to Shorten Your Life-span." anyone seen the list on mugglenet? 50 Ways to Annoy Lord Voldemort. That's my fic right there. But, I'll get there Dedalus, I swear I will. I only really get one night a week to just lounge but maybe I'll copy and paste then bring it to school; I've done that before for stories I really, really love and whose chapters aren't enormously long like Cassandra Claire's. (Wanted to bring that, but backed off when I saw it reached 40 pages.) My interenet is mean and I'm trying to go through my inbox tonight - lots of surveys. Plus, there's a nice... was it 19 pages? long chapter waiting for me to proof! :D Yes, those who are following it, and I don't think any of you are, the next chapter of Teach Me the Meaning of Tomorrow is done and if you want it, you'd better beg and pray my teachers don't give me much homework.

Well, around here we've got Bubbleicious, Bubbletape, Trident, some other ones... Big Red... um, hmmm... I don't know, more. America's just a gum-chewin' nation! :D And they don't yell at us in school anymore!!! :clap: (cept in Spanish, gotta speak too much there. Mr. C, my civ. teacher, was telling us this story about a junior class who in their freshmen year one girl brought in bubblegum for everyone else and they all blew bubbles whenever theny were asked a question! :lol: )

It would make a HUGE difference if Alice is giving Neville the paper wrappers or the foil ones. If they're foil then we're back into the whole mirror and reflection thing. And from there, we go to eyes being the window of the soul. And from there... I think we started discussing plants again....

Hmmm... flat and thin like baseball cards... Or wizard cards with Dumbledore and Merlin and Agripinna, who coincidentally is the Roman emperor's mother - it was great! it tried to accuse her of treason, but she proved her innocence, she put her in a collapsable boat, but she swam away, and then he hired some sailors to kill her without permisson from the Senate anf that worked. Sorry, I'm actually learning stuff in World Civ this year. Think maybe it's leading to one of those people? Who else is on a Chocolate Frog card?

Jill

November 21st, 2003, 3:51 am

furryfreakferret

November 21st, 2003, 9:06 pm

Ah, Jill, that's AWFUL!!!! Listen, I know Neville's gran comes off a bit... cruel and, well, demanding, but believe me, she's no Death Eater! Before this book came out I thought she was physically abusing Neville, maybe even with the Cruciatus! But even then I knew she wasn't a Death Eater. Though, I have to admit, the way she speaks about what happened to them and the way she treats Neville's mum and the whole theory about her thinking the wrappers are suspicious and that's why she wants them thrown out.... But, no, I still can't believe she's a Death Eater. It just... doesn't seem plausible! but, then again.... I'm going to go and think this over. Maybe reread that bit. I don't know. Mrs. Longbottom? A Death Eater?! No! It can't be! But, then again.... Well, you've given me something to think about! Anyone else have thoughts on the theory?

purplehawk

November 21st, 2003, 11:22 pm

I've never thought of her as anything other than a tough old lady, embittered perhaps by what happened to her son Frank and his wife. Mrs. Longbottom is too closely allied with Dumbledore, Tiberius Ogden, Griselda Marchbanks and others well-known to oppose Voldemort and even the Ministry of Magic under Fudge.

She may well have supported or even performed a memory charm on Neville if, in fact, he witnessed the horror of the attack on his parents. I'm not even sure the charm was performed - it would not be unusual for a child to mentally and emotionally block the terror such a horrific event. But if the memory charm was used on Neville with her knowledge or actually performed by her, you can bet it was done benevolently. I've never heard of wizards or wizard children being taken to therapists for treatment...

Neville seems to be coming around, though, coming to grips with it. Like Harry, he may be having flashbacks, snippets of memories of that night. When Rita Skeeter published her expose before the Third Task of the tournament in GoF, Draco did and said some disparaging remarks about Harry in the Great Hall - remarks quite similar to those he made outside Snape's dungeon in OotP - and Neville didn't erupt the way he did a year later. He may well be remembering bits of it... which might explain his sudden determination to fight back.

I agree she should not be constantly reminding Neville he is not the wizard his father was. Still, I am willing to guess it is a form of "tough love" until I have a reason to believe otherwise. After all, we do not know much about what goes on or has gone on in the Longbottom home relative to Neville's upbringing.

furryfreakferret

November 22nd, 2003, 12:43 am

purplehawk

November 22nd, 2003, 1:00 am

I'm mad... I just lost my post.

Anyhoo, Draco doesn't mention the ward specifically, but he does a drawn-out imitation of a person whose mind has been addled. "Hey Potter - how's your head?" is the first quote that comes to mind. If you'll remember, Rita's article drops the idea that Harry's magical injury had damages his brain.

GryffindorSeeker

November 22nd, 2003, 3:02 am

purplehawk

November 22nd, 2003, 4:53 am

I don't think that Malfoy's comment really implies his brain. I always hought he was just refering to the pain of the scar, taunting him about it. Were the articles even getting to that point yet?
Besides, was Neville even within earshot during this?

"Hey, Potter! Potter - how's your head? You feeling alright? Sure you're not going to go berzerk on us?"

...

From the article: "... It is possible, say top experts at St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries, that Potter's brain was affected by the attack inflicted upon him by You-Know-Who, and that his insistence that the scar is still hurting is a reflection of his deep-seated confusion... "

...

Over at the Slytherin table Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle were laughing at him, tapping their heads with their fingers, pulling grotesque faces, and waggling their tongues like snakes.

Neville isn't mentioned as being at the table that morning, so he may well not have witnessed Malfoy's antics. Yet somehow I think he was there. Neville in GoF was still loathe to put himself forward. Neville in OotP was quite different.

furryfreakferret

November 23rd, 2003, 12:19 am

thanks for the quotes, hawk! yeah, Nev really HAS changed, hasn't he? I would ASSUME he was around cuz, hey, if i'd gotten the chance, i would have watched the Triwizard, so i doubt he missed out. only, he wasn't going to flare up like he did in OotP because he was more... shy, down-to-earth, without a Mimbulus mimbletonia...?

Jill

November 23rd, 2003, 12:33 am

It is funny how Neville has change all of a sudden and when Voldemort had arisen to power too. In fact the minute Voldemort came to power. I think after all these years Neville has become so self contained with the thoughts of getting back at those that hurt his parents, that he has forgotten about himself. I think we are going to see a different Neville, a Neville who for once will start to show some of his own colors and why because he see's his goal right infrount of him. He see Voldemort and the DE back and a chance once and for all to do something about those that got to his parents and tortured them.

I think Neville was very brave standing upto those DE in OotP when he could not even do spells properly because of his broken nose. The thing is here, is that he was going to use his wand to cast a spell. In ss/ps he only put his fists up at Harry, Ron and Hermione when they where trying to sneak out of the gryffindor common room. So there is a definate change in bravery and intelligence when under pressure. Neville is not the shy person we knew and I think Lupin helped him out a little with the bogart in the wardrobe scene. I think know Neville is going to stand up for the writes of his parents and if so fight to the death to defend there name against the dark lord and the DE involved.

purplehawk

November 23rd, 2003, 1:14 am

I think Neville was very brave standing upto those DE in OotP when he could not even do spells properly because of his broken nose.

I think so, too, but there is something about the battle in the Department of Mysteries that annoys me. When Harry and Neville caught up with Ron, Luna, and Ginny in the Brain Room, Harry asked Luna and Neville to help him seal the doors with the colloportus charm. They did so. Then, when Neville followed Harry into the Death Chamber, Neville couldn't articulate his spells. How is "colloportus" easier to say with a broken nose than "stupefy"?

only, he wasn't going to flare up like he did in OotP because he was more... shy, down-to-earth, without a Mimbulus mimbletonia...?

Oh, yesssss! That magnificent plant of Neville's. You know, I can't wait to find out what the heck that thing does. I'm as anxious to read about Neville and his mother and father as about Harry, Dumbledore, and Voldemort.

glittergal

November 23rd, 2003, 6:01 pm

I definately think there is something going on there. Neville keeps the wrappers at least. So either it's something sentimental, or perhaps he's got an idea that they really are worth a bit more value? :evil:

furryfreakferret

November 30th, 2003, 10:58 pm

Ooh! Great thinking, Jill! I love the theory on why Neville suddenly started acting more the Gryffindor we know he is! Oh! I know it looks as though Neville may be headed for trouble (though you're right, we'd all think he was wonderful if he did die fighting Voldemort to defend the "family honor") but I still wanna hope that he's the one the prophecy's about. He COULDN'T die then!

How is "colloportus" easier to say with a broken nose than "stupefy"?

Well, it's not. It'd the 'p' he was having trouble with. But author's privledge I suppose. Maybe the doors Neville sealed happened to be doors the Death Eaters didn't try. Or maybe that was why they never did make the full circle around the room. I mean, how many doors can there be?

I'm as anxious to read about Neville and his mother and father as about Harry, Dumbledore, and Voldemort.

Isn't it wonderful? When Harry's being a jerk, Dumbledore's ignoring Harry, thereby ignoring us, and Voldemort's not in the scene cuz I can't think of a boring scene WITH him - we can always rely on Neville and his parents to be there to keep us reading! :)

Yeah, Neville must no something's up, I think. He doesn't seem one to disobey his grandmother. Even in matters like that. :D

magicsocks

November 30th, 2003, 11:18 pm

It would be really ironic if Neville is the one in the Chamber. That would mean Harry's been putting up with all this bad stuff for years for no real reason.

Terrilein

December 6th, 2003, 11:22 am

Sorry I haven't muddled my way through all 19 pages of this thread, but I wanted to jump in all the same. Maybe this has been posted already. If so, please don't flame me.

I think that Neville is just collecting the wrappers for sentimental reasons. I also think his grandmother is overexaggerating when she says hundreds and/or enough to wallpaper his room. However, the fact that his mom always gives him these wrappers and not something else does rather sound fishy. I think Alice is improving, but not so much that she really understands what she's doing. My theory is that Malfoy found out that the Longbottoms like bubblegum and so makes sure they are supplied with a special kind that keeps them muddled. Alice and her husband can't help themselves: they are muddled and like gum. But maybe she's giving her son the wrappers in a subconscious cry for help. Neville just needs to snap out of his revery and recognize the fact. His grandmother's rather callous treatment of him, however, makes him cling to the sentimental and overlook maybe a very important clue/way to get his parents back.

Liselle

December 6th, 2003, 12:32 pm

I to have believed that gran Longbottom was a DE because of the horrible way in which she talks to Neville and the way in which she treats him. It might also explain who the DE knew where to find the Longbottoms so that they could torture them.

I think that between the gran and Lucius, they are keeping the Longbottoms falsely locked up. I also think that it might explain why gran wants Neville to throw away the bubblegum wrappers, maybe she is suspicious.

No way do I believe that one!!! Its just too mean!! I know she seems to be brusque with Neville but honsetly its just because she cares....she sends all his stuff to school because he forgets it, she is fiercly protective of Neville and the the legacy of his parents.....

no no no no no no way is she a deatheater, anyway even if she was why would the deatheaters in the Mom at the end of the Mom say that she would be used to losing family members to their cause??? It didn't exactly sound like it was a choice she had.

Liselle

swishandflick

December 6th, 2003, 4:48 pm

[left]
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."

:rotfl: I read that a few pages back and I almost wet myself with irony :lol: .
I also don't really think that Nevill'es grandmother is a deatheater. Maybe she secretly hates Neville because he survived while her son went insane (depending of course on where Neville was during the torture). Or maybe she's this way with everybody. When talking to the trio and Ginny she sounded more overly formal than mean spirited. Anyways...I'm going to revert back to what Sirius said which is that "The world isnt divided into good people and death eaters" seriously good quote.

Puffskein

December 7th, 2003, 11:21 am

Neville is quite scared of his granny ("I don't want the boggart to turn into her either!") but I can't believe she's evil. Most likely she has good intentions that don't quite come off. She comes across as a rather strong, formal woman, perhaps rather like McGonagall, though whether she has the same soft centre remains to be seen. If she does compare Neville to his father too much, doesn't Sirius do the same to Harry?

silver ink pot

December 8th, 2003, 7:05 am

"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe." -Lex Luthor, evil genius

:rotfl: I read that a few pages back and I almost wet myself with irony :lol: .
.SwishandFlick: Hi! Glad you like that quote! Sometimes I wonder if anyone ever reads my signature or if they understand it? So I'm glad someone enjoyed it. Finding that quote was probably my best moment on this forum! Thanks - :D !!!

Lots of great ideas about the gum wrappers and the names of gum. I liked the name "Trident" just because it sounds mythological - Neptune's Trident. I like the idea of a "brain teaser" being on the wrapper - that sounds just like JKR! She wants to give us a brain teaser to solve if we are clever enough and have enough time on our hands!:lol:
Double-Bubble sounds alot like "Bubble-Bubble" toil and trouble, doesn't it? As in, the song from MacBeth the children are singing in the new PoA trailer?

Hey - Here's a thought. They used the line "something wicked this way comes" in the trailer. Of course it is from MacBeth, but it is also the title of a book by Ray Bradbury. Has anyone read it lately? Is there anything in the plot to do with bubble gum? I haven't read that book in years, but I saw part of the movie around Halloween. There are two boys and man trying to escape from an evil supernatural villain. Part of it was set in a library and part in a travelling carnival. It would be just like Bradbury to throw in something about bubble gum or candy. I'm going to look for my copy.
FurryFreakFerret: Isn't it nice to know that we are being quoted all over the Internet? Maybe our 19 pages are not a waste of time after all, lol.:clap:

furryfreakferret

December 13th, 2003, 6:03 pm

lol! I read your siggy, inky! AND understand it!

Oh, yes, we've certainly had some good times on this forum. Real good, the Lex Luthor quote ranking among them. I hadn't caught the "trident" clue before, was it mentioned? I was reading the New Clues book Galadriel Waters put out and they were going on about how Luna (possibly Artemis) blew up Pluto. Always knew I liked her. Strange girl though.....

I gotta go read McBeth, eh? All right. In my "spare time." There does seem to be quite a bit of refrence doesn't there. But, then again, I am still to see the trailer so I wouldn't really know. Why are they singing bubble, bubble, toil, and trouble, when have they ever SUNG, and who or what is the something wicked that this way comes? Sirius is good, not wicked (except as a 15-year-old)!!! And Scabbers has been hanging around for years! I haven't read Bradbury's book so I'm afraid I can't help there either. :(

Okay, now I need to tell all of yo, because it's really got me upset! In the New Clues book, I didn't see a single mention of bubblegum!!!! How could she, with all the fancy clue detectors, miss what may be one of the most fun discussions ever?! -sigh- Anyway, who says we write to Galadriel?

Ooh! But I DID pick up something useful!!! Okay, so. Love is supposed that Harry has that Voldemort knows nothing of, right? Well, Harry hasn't exactly been a very loving person lately, has he? More of a self-centered, misunderstood, full-of-angst, hateful teenager. Not feeling the love. Neville, on the other hand, while possibly (and notice I said possibly) not recieving much is just one of the nicest, most considerate, forgiving person in these books. So: either love isn't the power Harry's got or Neville's the one in the prophecy, "marked" or unmarked.

I'm done ranting now. Ignore the annoynous figure in the back row.

Liselle

December 13th, 2003, 9:24 pm

Okay, now I need to tell all of yo, because it's really got me upset! In the New Clues book, I didn't see a single mention of bubblegum!!!! How could she, with all the fancy clue detectors, miss what may be one of the most fun discussions ever?! -sigh- Anyway, who says we write to Galadriel?
I've ordered that book actually, I can't believe she missed that one or left it out intentionally....I say we send her a howler!!! There so has to be something there!!! On the other hand there's alot that she says in the first book I disagree with (the whole James being alive in Lupin's body is one thing!)...mainly the Celistina Warbeck is evil....I can't see it happening, its a bit too much like Barry Trotter and the shameless parody where the evil lord Vaulmart is the lead singer in Barry's favourite group! (Art imitating life imitating art?!)

Ooh! But I DID pick up something useful!!! Okay, so. Love is supposed that Harry has that Voldemort knows nothing of, right? Well, Harry hasn't exactly been a very loving person lately, has he? More of a self-centered, misunderstood, full-of-angst, hateful teenager. Not feeling the love. Neville, on the other hand, while possibly (and notice I said possibly) not recieving much is just one of the nicest, most considerate, forgiving person in these books. So: either love isn't the power Harry's got or Neville's the one in the prophecy, "marked" or unmarked.
thats a really impressive catch! I've been ranting and raving on various web sites for at least the last two years on how vital Neville will be to the plot and how he's a foil to Harry....I still think that Harry won't be the one to bring about Voldemorts downfall alone, it will be Neville to some degree.....ooohhh I like this one alot! Its interesting isn't it that we've all been focusing on love (Dumbledore has said that the fact that Harry can feel is one of his greatest assets!)...then she still has this nice conflict between this supposed "love" Harry has but isn't showing and allows Neville to highlight this very nicely......
Awesome!

Liselle

whizbang121

December 14th, 2003, 1:23 am

It's not love and it's not Neville.
And Galadriel Waters gets her ideas from websites like this. I think she's a fraud.

HarryP

December 14th, 2003, 12:01 pm

I have a very strange idea about this. Now the story is written from Harry's view it is written that she gave Neville a droobles best blowing gum empty wrapper. That means he saw only the back side of the wrapper. I believe there was something written behind the wrapper. In the blank white space there always is in bubble gums.

phoenixsong

December 14th, 2003, 12:28 pm

Welcome, HarryP! Some of us, way back in this thread, wondered if the hypothetical message you are talking about might not be written in invisible ink, or even some kind of ink that would be "activated" by the mimbulus mimbletonia stinksap.

But the question is whether Alice is even capable of writing in her state. It seems to me that writing might be beyond her capabilities at present, which is why I like better some of the ideas about it being a clue to who is keeping the Longbottoms in their Befuddled state.

Gred&Forge

December 14th, 2003, 11:23 pm

Neville is quite scared of his granny ("I don't want the boggart to turn into her either!")

I always thought he said that not because he was afraid of his Gran, but because he didn't want to think - or didn't want anyone else to think - that he could be afraid of her. When you were young, did you ever feel like it would be the worst thing in the world for you to hate your parents? Given Neville's personality, I thought that was the case with him, as well. He probably really is intimidated by her - she does seem rather formidable - but I think he didn't want the boggart to be her because he didn't want to think that someone he loved could be his worst fear. Her as a boggart also would've involved performing Ridikulus, ridiculing his gran's image in some way, and I'm thinking he wouldn't want to do that. I'm kind of basing this on the way I felt about my own grandmother when I was younger. Just a theory.

furryfreakferret

December 17th, 2003, 8:54 pm

Thanks very much, Liselle. And... if you do send a Howler I want to add my bit to it. hehe. Don't forget the outlandish idea that Neville's part amphibian!

Actually, I happen to agree with whiz. It's probably not actually love, the prophey probably isn't the weapon, and, yeah, Galadriel Waters does get ideas from sites like this. Think we could write our own book? We've certainly got enough. (By the way, whiz, LOVE the siggy! :love: "Elizabeth! I'm sorry but things never would've worked out between us." Why? He's mine!)

Welcome in, HarryP! Pakistan? :wow: We're really spreading. Bet it's nice and warm there.... -glances gloomily at the snow, the rain, and the fog outside- Anyway... nah, you're idea's not strange at all! In fact, I think we were considering something being written on it, but by Mrs. L herself, like pheo said (hey, pheo! long time no see!) not the company. I like it! It fits in very nicely. Wish we could meet this Drooble guy. Maybe we ought to go buy bubblegum to find the golden ticket?

I'm sorry Gred&Forge (am I talking to them both?). I'm not following. He didn't want the boggart to turn into his grandmother because he didn't want anyone to think he was afraid of her. Oh! Wait! I think I just got it! :) I still feel like it would be the worst thing in the world to hate my parents. My sister says it sometimes and it hurts me even though when she says she hates me I just laugh. It's a good theory. But... does that mean his gran COULD be his worst fear? It's what the boggart THINKS will scare them most. If you don't know yourself, can you sort of control what it does? Gotta think this one over.....

(So many ideas today!)

LadySummer

December 19th, 2003, 1:06 am

Yes, I think the gum wrappers were just meant as a "gift" for Neville, and he keeps them because he loves his parents. I mean, who would just throw them away? I would keep them too.

Is it just me, or did anybody feel this was the saddest scene in the book? And it's not even a dramatic scene; I just can't imagine what Neville has gone through. I hate Bellatrix Lestrange....much more than Voldemort.

I agree on both accounts....i have a few of seemingly meaningless things given to me by people who i was close to who have passed and i still to this day cherish them, as a way for me to be closer to them, so neville is probably saving these gum wrappers for this same reason....BUT i also think there is more to these wrappers than meets the eye, something that neville and everyone else doesnt know about yet...alice is definitely trying to communicate something to him, he just doesnt know it yet.

and yes, that was quite the saddest scene. I guess its one thing to know your parents are gone forever like harry, but for neville to know they are there physically but not mentally at all has to be a whole different bit of mental anguish all together.

I didnt realize how much i hate that women until i reread OotP for the second time...i'd love to see a dementor get her and suck out her useless soul.

furryfreakferret

December 19th, 2003, 3:45 am

:welcome: Lady Summer! Hooray for new people with fresh ideas! I don't really have much to say but I just thought I'd leave a note.

You're right that Neville is keeping them for sentimental reasons but I do have to wonder if maybe he's at least beginning to realize SOMETHING'S going on with these things. I know it seems... unlikely, perhaps - knowing Neville, but if he doesn't get a move on we may never know!!! :wow: It's really gonna bug me if we did all this research for nothing except the cure to ear worms....

And yes, I actually believe Neville's worse off than Harry, from a phycological stand-point, I mean. Can you even imagine?!

And lastly, Bellatwit Lewacko must DIE!!!!!! Or, better yet, let's suck her soul out. I'm done being nasty. Sorry. :angel:

Dedalus Diggle

December 19th, 2003, 3:52 am

And lastly, Bellatwit Lewacko must DIE!!!!!! Or, better yet, let's suck her soul out. I'm done being nasty. Sorry. :angel:

In my first fanfic, Bella gets petrified by a basilisk. :rotfl: Neville causes it. :lol: She gets taken to Snape's office and stood like a statue. :wow: Is that the sort of ending for her you could live with?

whizbang121

December 19th, 2003, 3:56 am

:wow: It's really gonna bug me if we did all this research for nothing except the cure to ear worms....
Awwww...... Imagine the thrill it gave JKR to see us nibbling at the edges of the Library she memorized and consumed. Education is it's own reward. :agree: (This from a classic underachiever who refused to go to college.;))
And lastly, Bellatwit Lewacko must DIE!!!!!! Or, better yet, let's suck her soul out. I'm done being nasty. Sorry. :angel:
How about if we let Neville take her down? Or is that too much. Hmmmm...... Let's give her to Ginny. Ginny will get her.

Ihela

December 19th, 2003, 4:50 am

I truly believe that we will be feeling more Love in the next book.. :love: Lovegood-Potter, Longbotton-Weasly, Weasly-Granger. Longbotton facination with plants will play a crucial part in curing his parents. He will end up working in Mondugus Hospital as a healer. Harry as DADA teacher at Hogward, Granger at the MOM and Weasty as Super Quiddich star. Lovegood if survive the saga will become editor to a competitor newspaper and Ginny as Auror under her father the New Minister of Magic. I know..I am dreaming...but what else to do until next book..of course checking your clever ideas on the web.. :tu: Thanks a million... for all the fun..! :clap:

Lil Red Head

December 19th, 2003, 7:37 am

But the question is whether Alice is even capable of writing in her state. It seems to me that writing might be beyond her capabilities at present, which is why I like better some of the ideas about it being a clue to who is keeping the Longbottoms in their Befuddled state.

I think Alice has her moments of lucidity. And I have bought into the idea that St Mungo's is under the control of people such as L. Malfoy, so I'm certain that the Longbottoms are not receiving the best care possible.

I've also learned with JKR the obvious is usually not the case (lol), so Harry for DADA prof isn't it, but I'm thinking that Neville is likely to take a prof position. My first inclination was towards herbology, although with all he has been thru, maybe he'll be the DADA prof after graduation.

Also, a thought that has been running thru my head. There was a discussion about memory charms and their effects on people (confusion, disorientation, etc). I started to think about Neville. The main thread seems to imply that someone may have tried to put one on him as a young child, and that explains his questionable memory. However, I'm noticing that he comes to school in the fall confused, but by the time he leaves, he seems to have gained some confidence and clarity.

SO (the big Question), is someone (cough *gran* cough) putting a memory charm on him before he returns to school each year? It could be as simple as her thinking she's doing it for his own good (not remembering things from his childhood), or it could be more sinister (there's some goings on that she doesn't want publicly known).

I could be totally off base here, but here's one way to tidy up this whole theory: Neville's Gran is in cahoots with Malfoy and Co. That's why she's fine with Neville's parents being at St Mungos and not recovering. She bullies Neville to keep him under her thumb, so if/when something comes up with the Death Eaters/Voldemort, she'll have quick access to him and whatever keys he holds to all this. And she does some memory altering over the summer to keep Neville from blabbing at the school the kind of company she's keeping.

Then again, maybe I've been reading too much Galadrial Waters, and I just need to go to bed. lol

silver ink pot

December 19th, 2003, 7:48 am

And Galadriel Waters gets her ideas from websites like this. I think she's a fraud.Whizbang: I'm so glad to hear that opinion from someone I truly respect! I have a second-hand copy of her first book which covers books 1 through 4. As I was reading it, I realized that she skips whole passages and doesn't analyze them. For instance, she doesn't analyze much of what Snape says to Harry, or much of what happens in potions class. I think she picks out facts to support her theories, instead of digging and brainstorming details like we do here. And after reading some of her theories for OotP, I just shook my head.

How funny that there is no mention of GUM!!! Of all things!(I edited this to sound much less negative, for those of you who already read it.)

OK, I've got something new to talk about, and it has to do with bubbles. It is kind of out in left field (as usual :p ) but it is in the spirit of the holiday season.

I have become obsessed with a scene from GoF. It is the scene at the World Quidditch Match when Harry and Hermione are walking to the water spigot early in the morning and they see all the little children playing outside the tents. There is a "pyramid" shaped tent and a small boy, not more than two, like Cindy-Lou Who in the "How the Grinch Stole Christmas." He is "blowing up" a yellow slug to the size of a salami with a wand. A woman runs out of the tent and tells Kevin not to play with Daddy's wand, steps on the slug, and the baby starts saying, "You bust slug - you bust slug." We all know that these books are FULL of "slug" references. Indeed, at the end of OotP, Malfoy and his minions are turned into slugs. So I've been trying to find other meanings of the word slug, and I found an interesting one.

Tonight I googled "bubble+slug" and came up with something interesting. This has to do with antique Christmas lights. Now, in each book, Christmas lights are described over and over. The professors "outdo themselves" decorating trees. Dobby puts Harry's face on Christmas lights. Harry dreams about Dobby's face on lights! Aren't there also floating lights in Mr. Weasley's room? I believe we talked about this earlier, but I never connected those lights to the Christmas lights, but someone else probably did.

Anyway, the lights I discovered were the kind used back in the forties that were known as "bubbling lights." The original ones had a glass bead inside called a "slug." Here is a link that shows different kinds and has the complete history.

http://www.antiquechristmaslights.com/bubble_lights_2.htm

Consisting of a glass tube filled with methylene chloride and a plastic base that holds a light bulb in close contact with the tube, the units bubble merrily whenever heated. The chemical has such a low boiling point that it will even bubble from the heat of your hand or the sunlight entering through a window. The liquid in the tubes comes tinted in several colors, with purple being the rarest as it wasonly sold for the first three years of production. As shown in the close-up picture on the left, the earliest bubble lights have glass slugs within the tubes, to help activate and spread out the bubbles. Soon it was discovered that the slugs were not really needed, and after 1949 they were no longer used. Lights without the glass tubes, however, do tend to have larger and unevenly produced bubbles. Bubble Lites quickly became the best selling and most profitable Christmas lights of their day.

Sticking with their original success, NOMA reissued the famous "biscuit" style lights, in the slightly modernized box . . . The little girl staring in wonderment at the bubbling light pictured on the earlier box of replacement bubble lites changed her dress from a early 40s style blue outfit with stripes to a much more timely solid green dress. Her eyes had also mysteriously changed color from blue to green to match her new outfit. Adding to NOMA's competition troubles in 1948, one of their sets of bubble lights was accused of starting a fire, which tragically involved a fatality. NOMA immediately added a fire retardant chemical to their plastic.

Am I stretching here, or does "NOMA" seem alot like "MOM"?

And looking at some of these pictures of the lights in the boxes made me think of Mr. Weasley and all his circuits and fuses and interest in electricity in general.

I can imagine JKR as a little girl playing with one of these 'bubblers" and imagining that it is a magic wand.

Merry Christmas! :clap:

Lil Red Head

December 19th, 2003, 8:03 am

[QUOTE=furryfreakferret]

I gotta go read McBeth, eh? All right. In my "spare time." There does seem to be quite a bit of refrence doesn't there. But, then again, I am still to see the trailer so I wouldn't really know. Why are they singing bubble, bubble, toil, and trouble, when have they ever SUNG, and who or what is the something wicked that this way comes? Sirius is good, not wicked (except as a 15-year-old)!!! And Scabbers has been hanging around for years! I haven't read Bradbury's book so I'm afraid I can't help there either. [QUOTE]

It's been a few years since I read "That Scottish Play" (oh wait, I'm not in a theatre), ok, MacBeth, but I was browsing it recently. The Weird Sisters (3 witches) are doing a potion and they're chanting the Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble bit. The wicked coming their way, is I believe, MacBeth himself. They give him some info earlier on in the play and he and his wife take this info and start to get a little power hungry. By the end of the play, they've both gone a bit mad from all the killing they've done to get to the top. It's Lady MacBeth who says the famous "Out, out da** spot", because she keeps seeing blood on her hands, literally.

How this relates to Harry and the gang? Well, Hogwarts is near Scotland, and MacBeth was set there. The play, loosely based on historical characters, made the monarchy at the time look good as MacDuff, I think, turns out to be the good guy and the Monarch at the time as a decendent of his. So there's family history involved. Dunno really. Maybe it was just a cool way to make the movie darker. Ok, maybe now I gotta go reread it too. lol

phoenixsong

December 19th, 2003, 11:12 am

Well, rolling with the Macbeth theme a bit, I would say there is a similar motif of the relationship between prophecy and history between what happens in Macbeth, with the Weird Sisters' predictions helping to bring into actuality the things they predict, and Trelawney's prophecy causing Voldemort to go after the boys, and hence "marking" Harry and setting the events "predicted" into motion. But of course, this is a theme not limited to Macbeth and HP! The whole history of prophecy is marked by people whose desire to avoid the things described in the prophecy makes them come about. And often this happens through excessive pride on the part of the person trying to avoid the prophecy.

Oh, silver ink pot! Those christmas lights were still in circulation when I was a kid, they were spectacularly beautiful. Though I'm inclined to believe that only specialists, i.e. the people who manufactured the lights, would have any cause to talk about the "slug" inside. And of course, collectors today would also know the terminology!

Liselle

December 20th, 2003, 5:57 pm

IAlso, a thought that has been running thru my head. There was a discussion about memory charms and their effects on people (confusion, disorientation, etc). I started to think about Neville. The main thread seems to imply that someone may have tried to put one on him as a young child, and that explains his questionable memory. However, I'm noticing that he comes to school in the fall confused, but by the time he leaves, he seems to have gained some confidence and clarity.

SO (the big Question), is someone (cough *gran* cough) putting a memory charm on him before he returns to school each year? It could be as simple as her thinking she's doing it for his own good (not remembering things from his childhood), or it could be more sinister (there's some goings on that she doesn't want publicly known).thats an intersting theory but leaving Neville's gran out of it what if Neville gets a "top up" every so often with a memory charm like when he goes to Saint Mungos? In one of the books doesn't someone comment that Neville's memory was even worse than it was the year before or something like that? I wonder if Neville's being really clumsy has anything to do with a botched memory charm and if so maybe Tonks has had one done on her too as she's really clumsy aswell....curiouser curiouser curiouser!!!

or what about Trevor? there's something weird up with him isn't there? have you noticed that he's always trying to make a jump/hop for it? hope its not to the rooster hut.....

Liselle

edit: on the whole Gladriel waters thing I did get the first book and I wasn't too impressed with it, I got the second the other day and in my opinion its much much better than the first it doesnt spell anything out but she's still trying to hammer home the Lupin James thing which really annoys me!! its more food for thought than anything else (for me anyway! and a reference guide) its not a replacement for the canon at all and I do agree that she probably takes a look at sites such as this for some of her ideas...pity she doesn't go for the real corkers!!

lightofmagic

December 20th, 2003, 8:09 pm

thats an intersting theory but leaving Neville's gran out of it what if Neville gets a "top up" every so often with a memory charm like when he goes to Saint Mungos? In one of the books doesn't someone comment that Neville's memory was even worse than it was the year before or something like that? I wonder if Neville's being really clumsy has anything to do with a botched memory charm and if so maybe Tonks has had one done on her too as she's really clumsy aswell....curiouser curiouser curiouser!!!

This is a good point as Neville does start the school year a little dazed but then again you must remember that any new start to a year begins slowly. There is a tendency for muggles to forget things over the summer before the next year at school starts. So perhaps Neville just does not study during holiday periods as a result of his aunt influence. On the other hand I would not put it past his aunt to use a memory charm when Neville meets his parents, as she does always seem to want to rush the visits between Neville and his parents at St. Mongos.

furryfreakferret

December 22nd, 2003, 12:05 am

First off, :welcome: to all you new people. Ihela, Lil Red Head, lightofmagic (sorry if I missed anyone)....

]In my first fanfic, Bella gets petrified by a basilisk. Neville causes it. She gets taken to Snape's office and stood like a statue. Is that the sort of ending for her you could live with?

:rotfl: sure is, Ded! By the way, did you get my review of part of Tomb Bug? hehe. Gotta get back on that. :whistle: Only, couldn't we give her to Mrs. Norris as a scratching post instead?

Thank you, Ihela! you are the first person i've seen not laugh, let alone agree with, my pairings. Harry and Luna all da way! :lol: sorry, everyone. hehehe.

Thanks to Ihela, i've JUST realized something! amazing, isn't it? Mondugus must be the spanish equivalent to Mungo's but, is it just me, or does that look an awful lot like our slippery friend Mundugus? Maybe he's wrapped up in the scheming of the hospital somehow? Or te one who discovers them.... (I like Dung. :) )

Well, since we're all discussing it: Harry's going to Seek for the Cannons; Neville's going to be teaching DADA; Ron'll be a Healer; and Draco an Auror. All right, done imagining now. But I think we do have some evidence to back Aurthur replacing the disgusting Fudge ("and if he were a flavor you can bet he would be sour!")

Nice catch, Lil Red Head! I don't remember whether or not Neville has been going home with a clearer head EACH year, but this year we all noticed it. Ah, the wonders of Mimbulus mimbletonia. I still wonder about that thing! grrrrrr.... The mastermind's given us a toughy i believe.

Ooh! Liselle! Good thought! Going along with Red Head's theory, I think I have to like your idea as to who is doing the memory charms better than hers. Somehow, I still trust Nev's gran wheras the Mungo's Healers are slipping further and further on my list of people not to run into down dark alleyways.

(By the way, I happen to agree with you. She may well be a fraud, but for someone like me who doesn't have time at all to go through all the threads I'd like to, it's a nice shortened version of what goes on. Very shortened. No where NEAR as cool though. *sigh* It's kind of... interesting to see what she takes as clues and truths and what I take as clues and truths. They're not even close. I mean, come on, Snape? A vampire? I just refuse to even consider most of them.)

inky my grandma has some of those lights! But there aren't any slugs in them, thankfully (i'm checking when we go there Christmas Eve...) I always thought they were kind of weird... now I'm going to think so even more.... (I'll be doing a lot of thinking on this one. I don't really connect with that side of the family and I'd gladly try to work out the mystery behind the lights and still look like I'm enjoying myself. Good excuse.) Um... but what is NOMA supposed to look like? MOM? Don't be mean like Galadriel and only leave hints! May I add though? Okay, so if we're connecting these "bubble lights" to the lights at St. Mungo's, what do we think of slugs? Slimy, gross, disgusting creatures. I get it! :clap:

On the other hand I would not put it past his aunt to use a memory charm when Neville meets his parents, as she does always seem to want to rush the visits between Neville and his parents at St. Mungos.

Well, TECHNICALLY, we don't have enough evidence to say that Neville's gran does always rush him out of the hospital. In fact, we may rather have evidence AGAINST it. We've only run into Neville ONCE at the hospital so there's not much to judge by. It was the Christmas season, Christmas day in fact, and perhaps she was just in a rush to get home to turkey dinner or something. Or under the stress of the holidays. Also, she did delay longer than she could have, her pride, perhaps, winning over her anxiousness to get Neville away before anyone noticed anything. (Of course, from what we've discussed, I wouldn't be too surprised to find the Healers knowing and not caring, being pleased even - or at least a few of them.) She DID stop to shake hands with Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny and to talk to each of them, explain who it was they were visiting, reprimand Neville for not telling them before then (efficent person, that's a lot to do in a short amount of time).... But it is a good point that we all forget things over the summer. :whistle: Maybe there's not so much going on here....

Anyway, Happy Christmas and Happy Holidays, everyone!

Dedalus Diggle

December 22nd, 2003, 4:09 am

:rotfl: sure is, Ded! By the way, did you get my review of part of Tomb Bug? hehe. Gotta get back on that. :whistle: Only, couldn't we give her to Mrs. Norris as a scratching post instead?

I'm glad you liked my version of Bella's fate. Of course I got your comment on my fanfic. We fanfic writers are just stupid for feedback. I got to wondering the other day whether you had read any more of it. It's a tad long for a Fan fic - a few days ago I put it in easy-print format and printed it so I could do editing and discovered it came to 169 pages, and that was with only my short quote from A Time to Heal as a signature. You'll recognize a lot of theories from this thread and a few others on the cosforums in there. Maybe a few people snowed in over the Xmas holidays will want to give it a go through a long fanfic (there's some good quidditch, good fights, betrayals, romances, mysteries, and even a trip to Egypt to examine an ancient magical message). However the price is this - please comment (that goes anytime you read a fanfic - we all want to be better writers, and we need to know what works). Oh, and by the way, I'm three chapters into the follow-up 7th year story, but it's not ready to begin posting yet. Thanks, Furry, both for starting and shepherding this fantastic thread and giving a bit of attention to my stories.

whizbang121

December 22nd, 2003, 8:23 pm

There was a thread examining the Scottish Play,here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20473&highlight=macbeth)
But let's think, 3 witches who seem to be influencing the course of events. In HP, who would they be? Well, if wizards count, too, then Dumbledore, certainly. Flammel, perhaps? Who else? And, "When shall we three meet again?" Hmmm....
The blood stained hands of the guilty could be the "SNEAK" on I forgot her name's face.
I gotta go find Macbeth on line. My complete works was loaned out and never returned. :grumble:
But it seems like there's a connection in the three witches. The hags. Hmmm.....

Liselle

December 22nd, 2003, 8:32 pm

But it seems like there's a connection in the three witches. The hags. Hmmm.....
Do you think that there are a certain three who dictate events? If thats what you mean then I think its possible that they are
*Voldemort
*Dumbledore
*Lucius Malfoy
in no particular order

Liselle

whizbang121

December 22nd, 2003, 8:49 pm

Voldemort and Malfoy? Hmm..... I don't think so. They are too "in" the plot. It would have to be three who exist almost outside the plot, you know? The following came from here. (http://www.allshakespeare.com/macbeth.php?id=864)

An open Place. Thunder and Lightning.

[Enter three Witches.]

FIRST WITCH.
When shall we three meet again?
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?

SECOND WITCH.
When the hurlyburly's done,
When the battle's lost and won.

THIRD WITCH.
That will be ere the set of sun.

FIRST WITCH.
Where the place?

SECOND WITCH.
Upon the heath.

THIRD WITCH.
There to meet with Macbeth.

FIRST WITCH.
I come, Graymalkin!

ALL.
Paddock calls:--anon:--
Fair is foul, and foul is fair:
Hover through the fog and filthy air.

[Witches vanish.]

Scene i: In what is perhaps the most attention-grabbing opening scene of all of Shakespeare's plays, we are introduced to the Weird Sisters. The witches (as they are known) would have been considered by the Elizabethans to be human representatives of supernatural or dark forces. The thunder and lightening used to mark their entrance emphasises their "other worldliness." Graymalkin, a cat, and Paddock, a toad, are mentioned as their special accomplices, as would be dogs, rats, and spiders. This association of animals and insects with horror and evil is still evident in our Halloween decorations and scary movies.

Cats, toads, dogs, rats, spiders and Halloween! What more could we ask for?!
~~~~~~~~~~

A heath.

[Thunder. Enter the three Witches.]

FIRST WITCH.
Where hast thou been, sister?

SECOND WITCH.
Killing swine.

THIRD WITCH.
Sister, where thou?

FIRST WITCH.
A sailor's wife had chestnuts in her lap,
And mounch'd, and mounch'd, and mounch'd:--"Give me," quoth I:
"Aroint thee, witch!" the rump-fed ronyon cries.
Her husband's to Aleppo gone, master o' the Tiger:
But in a sieve I'll thither sail,
And, like a rat without a tail,
I'll do, I'll do, and I'll do.

SECOND WITCH.
I'll give thee a wind.

FIRST WITCH.
Thou art kind.

THIRD WITCH.
And I another.

FIRST WITCH.
I myself have all the other:
And the very ports they blow,
All the quarters that they know
I' the shipman's card.
I will drain him dry as hay:
Sleep shall neither night nor day
Hang upon his pent-house lid;
He shall live a man forbid:
Weary seven-nights nine times nine
Shall he dwindle, peak, and pine:
Though his bark cannot be lost,
Yet it shall be tempest-tost.--
Look what I have.

SECOND WITCH.
Show me, show me.

FIRST WITCH.
Here I have a pilot's thumb,
Wreck'd as homeward he did come.

[Drum within.]

THIRD WITCH.
A drum, a drum!
Macbeth doth come.
ALL.
The weird sisters, hand in hand,
Posters of the sea and land,
Thus do go about, about:
Thrice to thine, and thrice to mine,
And thrice again, to make up nine:--
Peace!--the charm's wound up.

[Enter Macbeth and Banquo.]

MACBETH.
So foul and fair a day I have not seen.

BANQUO.
How far is't call'd to Forres?--What are these
So wither'd, and so wild in their attire,
That look not like the inhabitants o' the earth,
And yet are on't?--Live you? or are you aught
That man may question? You seem to understand me,
By each at once her chappy finger laying
Upon her skinny lips:--you should be women,
And yet your beards forbid me to interpret
That you are so.

MACBETH.
Speak, if you can;--what are you?

FIRST WITCH.
All hail, Macbeth! hail to thee, Thane of Glamis!

SECOND WITCH.
All hail, Macbeth! hail to thee, Thane of Cawdor!

THIRD WITCH.
All hail, Macbeth! that shalt be king hereafter!

BANQUO.
Good sir, why do you start; and seem to fear
Things that do sound so fair?-- I' the name of truth,
Are ye fantastical, or that indeed
Which outwardly ye show? My noble partner
You greet with present grace and great prediction
Of noble having and of royal hope,
That he seems rapt withal:--to me you speak not:
If you can look into the seeds of time,
And say which grain will grow, and which will not,
Speak then to me, who neither beg nor fear
Your favors nor your hate.

FIRST WITCH.
Hail!

SECOND WITCH.
Hail!

THIRD WITCH.
Hail!

FIRST WITCH.
Lesser than Macbeth, and greater.

SECOND WITCH.
Not so happy, yet much happier.

THIRD WITCH.
Thou shalt get kings, though thou be none:
So all hail, Macbeth and Banquo!

FIRST WITCH.
Banquo and Macbeth, all hail!

MACBETH.
Stay, you imperfect speakers, tell me more:
By Sinel's death I know I am Thane of Glamis;
But how of Cawdor? The Thane of Cawdor lives,
A prosperous gentleman; and to be king
Stands not within the prospect of belief,
No more than to be Cawdor. Say from whence
You owe this strange intelligence? or why
Upon this blasted heath you stop our way
With such prophetic greeting?--Speak, I charge you.

[Witches vanish.]

BANQUO.
The earth hath bubbles, as the water has,
And these are of them:--whither are they vanish'd?

MACBETH.
Into the air; and what seem'd corporal melted
As breath into the wind.--Would they had stay'd!
BANQUO.
Were such things here as we do speak about?
Or have we eaten on the insane root
That takes the reason prisoner?

MACBETH.
Your children shall be kings.

BANQUO.
You shall be king.

MACBETH.
And Thane of Cawdor too; went it not so?

BANQUO.
To the selfsame tune and words. Who's here?

[Enter Ross and Angus.]

ROSS.
The king hath happily receiv'd, Macbeth,
The news of thy success: and when he reads
Thy personal venture in the rebels' fight,
His wonders and his praises do contend
Which should be thine or his: silenc'd with that,
In viewing o'er the rest o' the self-same day,
He finds thee in the stout Norweyan ranks,
Nothing afeard of what thyself didst make,
Strange images of death. As thick as hail
Came post with post; and every one did bear
Thy praises in his kingdom's great defense,
And pour'd them down before him.

ANGUS.
We are sent
To give thee, from our royal master, thanks;
Only to herald thee into his sight,
Not pay thee.

ROSS.
And, for an earnest of a greater honor,
He bade me, from him, call thee Thane of Cawdor:
In which addition, hail, most worthy thane,
For it is thine.
BANQUO.
What, can the devil speak true?

MACBETH.
The Thane of Cawdor lives: why do you dress me
In borrow'd robes?

ANGUS.
Who was the Thane lives yet;
But under heavy judgement bears that life
Which he deserves to lose. Whether he was combin'd
With those of Norway, or did line the rebel
With hidden help and vantage, or that with both
He labour'd in his country's wreck, I know not;
But treasons capital, confess'd and proved,
Have overthrown him.

MACBETH.
[Aside.] Glamis, and Thane of Cawdor:
The greatest is behind.--Thanks for your pains.--
Do you not hope your children shall be kings,
When those that gave the Thane of Cawdor to me
Promis'd no less to them?

BANQUO.
That, trusted home,
Might yet enkindle you unto the crown,
Besides the Thane of Cawdor. But 'tis strange:
And oftentimes to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths;
Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequence.--
Cousins, a word, I pray you.

MACBETH.
[Aside.] Two truths are told,
As happy prologues to the swelling act
Of the imperial theme.--I thank you, gentlemen.--
[Aside.] This supernatural soliciting
Cannot be ill; cannot be good:--if ill,
Why hath it given me earnest of success,
Commencing in a truth? I am Thane of Cawdor:
If good, why do I yield to that suggestion
Whose horrid image doth unfix my hair,
And make my seated heart knock at my ribs,
Against the use of nature? Present fears
Are less than horrible imaginings:
My thought, whose murder yet is but fantastical,
Shakes so my single state of man, that function
Is smother'd in surmise; and nothing is
But what is not.

BANQUO.
Look, how our partner's rapt.

MACBETH.
[Aside.] If chance will have me king, why, chance may crown me
Without my stir.

BANQUO.
New honors come upon him,
Like our strange garments, cleave not to their mould
But with the aid of use.

MACBETH.
[Aside.] Come what come may,
Time and the hour runs through the roughest day.

BANQUO.
Worthy Macbeth, we stay upon your leisure.

MACBETH.
Give me your favor:--my dull brain was wrought
With things forgotten. Kind gentlemen, your pains
Are register'd where every day I turn
The leaf to read them.--Let us toward the king.--
Think upon what hath chanc'd; and, at more time,
The interim having weigh'd it, let us speak
Our free hearts each to other.

BANQUO.
Very gladly.

MACBETH.
Till then, enough.--Come, friends.

[Exeunt.]

The Witches
HECATE, Queen of the Witches
Hecate is sometimes referred to as the queen of the witches. It is she who directs supernatural happenings and appearances of the mystical apparitions.

The Three Witches
The three witches add an element of supernatural and prophecy to the play. They each have a familiar, such as Graymalkin and Paddock, and are commanded by Hecate, a Greek goddess of the moon and later witchcraft. The witches are based on a variety of ideas about witches at the time. They can use sieves as boats, and they can assume the shape of an animal, but with a defect, as with the tailless rat. The witches were also thought to be able to control the winds. They are described as having beards but looking human.

Liselle

December 22nd, 2003, 9:20 pm

Voldemort and Malfoy? Hmm..... I don't think so. They are too "in" the plot. It would have to be three who exist almost outside the plot, you know? The following came from here. (http://www.allshakespeare.com/macbeth.php?id=864)

Cats, toads, dogs, rats, and spiders! What more could we ask for?!
oh ok I get you now....I think I still hold with Lucius Malfoy though, maybe the others are too obvious...must have a think on this and read some Scottish Play!
Thanks for clearing that up

Liselle

whizbang121

December 22nd, 2003, 9:41 pm

oh ok I get you now....I think I still hold with Lucius Malfoy though, maybe the others are too obvious...must have a think on this and read some Scottish Play!
Thanks for clearing that up

Liselle
Just my opinion, but the witches don't take part in the action. They influence it or rather influence Macbeth himself to the fulfillment of their prophesies. This is interesting.
comment (http://www4.vjc.edu/Eng361J1/stories/storyReader$350) The Witches' Influence on Macbeth

Without the witches coming to Macbeth with their prophecies, Macbeth may not have taken the action that he did. When Ross and Angus came to tell Macbeth that the King had named him Thane of Cawdor, Macbeth started to realize the predictions from the witches were coming true. Although Lady Macbeth pushed him into commit the crimes, Macbeth had the last decision. Macbeth choose evil time and time again.

Liselle

December 22nd, 2003, 9:53 pm

yeah I see thats what you mean alright, you might find this a bit intersting, its a slightly off the wall (in my opinion) view on Trewlaney and her influence and bearing on the series as a whole....I'm open on it but leaning to the skeptical! I think it fits in with what you're saying :)

Liselle
(from mugglenet, the quibbler)

Trelawney on the Dark Side
What do we really know about Trelawney? She teaches Divination at Hogwarts, she seems to be a joke to rest of the staff, some of the students believe her to be a fraud, she is in love with Lupin (see Quibbler 2) (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thequibbler/tq02.shtml), and she was defended by Dumbledore in Order of the Phoenix. She is also the granddaughter of a “true Seer” and the holder of many prophecies about our Harry. But, have you ever noticed how she refers to Voldemort?

In every book and passage, people who are on “Harry’s side” refer to Voldemort as You-Know-Who or get scared away at the mention of anything about him. People who are on “Voldemort’s side” always refer to him as the Dark Lord. If you look carefully, this is how Trelawney refers to him in her prophecies. Since we have never really had a look at other types of prophecies, we do not know if this is a trend or just something about Trelawney’s predictions. With what we know, though, we can guess that her prophecies mean one of two things.

Firstly, we can assume that Trelawney’s predictions are legitimate. After all, they are stored in the Department of Mysteries and act like true prophecies. We know that Trelawney has enough Seer blood in her to have the capability to make a true prophecy. Also, Dumbledore believes her prophecies to be true enough to hire her and eventually defend her later on against Umbridge. It seems kind of fishy though…

Which brings us to option two: Trelawney is working either under own will or someone else’s to prophesy events to happen. This can mean a variety of things. If Trelawney is working under her own will, perhaps she is trying to brainwash certain people (Dumbledore, Harry, et cetera) to get them onto Voldemort’s side. More likely, though, an outside force to aid Voldemort is controlling Trelawney. Perhaps her “trance-like states” only occur when she is being controlled (such as through occlumency). If this is true, perhaps Dumbledore identified it that evening in the Hog’s Head and that is why he hired her. If this were true, he could monitor the trances and the activities of Voldemort. I personally believe that Trelawney is going to play a huge part in the next two books. There is a definite reason that Dumbledore hired her in the first place, but allowing her to stay at the end of Order of the Phoenix definitely is a big move. Yes, she is annoying and Harry dislikes her, but she is the key to his fate. Why her, you ask? Well, we do not really know at this point because we do not know enough about her. But, please consider my theory about her being on the dark side or being controlled by the dark side. Rowling decided to use the specific wording for a reason.

whizbang121

December 22nd, 2003, 10:51 pm

I can't remember where this came up before. Probably someplace since deleted. It seems odd that Voldemort wouldn't know the contents of the prophesy if he had himself somehow been involved in Trelawney's prediction. And where do we find that she's in love with Lupin? I missed that one. Holder of many prophesies about Harry? I thought there was only one? The prophesy Harry heard was about Wormtail.
I think it's likely that Dumbledore insists on keeping her at Hogwarts either for her own protection or to prevent anyone else having an opportunity to hear her deliver a trance prophesy. (She may deliver one every night at midnight. Who would know?) And somehow, her response to being ejected by Umbridge doesn't seem like the reaction of a DE.
Her circumstances are interesting, though. She actually lives at Hogwarts and seems to have no other home or life outside the school. Her tower further isolates her. She's virtually cut off from the world and seems very innocent of the realities at the foot of the ladder.

So perhaps the voice that is channelled through her is comparable to that of Hecate in Macbeth? She does seem so disconnected from the plot itself, outside of her prophesies. Yet her prophesies seem to influence the activities of others whose intent seems to be to influence the events prophesied. (Did that make sense I may to too into macbeth right now.)

I've wondered if the reference to the Dark Lord in Trelawney's prophesies has anything to do with idea that Voldemort is possessed by an ancient demon that plagues the house of Salazar Slytherin. This is one of those ideas that can be backed up either way, though, so ......

Liselle

December 22nd, 2003, 10:57 pm

yeah I know its off the wall but its food for thought alright, the thing about being in love with Lupin was just one of the reasons I said I was leaning towards being skeptical about it, another is that Sirus and Lupin I think both referred to Voldie as the Dark Lord. Your point of likening her "prophesising self" to Hecate in Macbeth is quite an interesting one actually.

Liselle

silver ink pot

December 23rd, 2003, 2:31 am

Hey, Thanks, Whizbang, for the snippets from MacBeth. I need to dig through that play some more. This is an interesting quote:

BANQUO.
The earth hath bubbles, as the water has,
And these are of them:--whither are they vanish'd?

Earth Bubbles? And then there was this:

. But 'tis strange:
And oftentimes to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths;
Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequence.--
Cousins, a word, I pray you.

I thought of Harry's mirror, given to him by Sirius, when I read that. He wanted a "word" with Sirius, but was betrayed and Sirius' death was the consequence. Also, we know all the Black's are cousins to the Weasleys. All the pureblood families are connected. So this is interesting.

When I think of a witch who is not in the action, but directs the action, I thought of Narcissa Malfoy! Kreacher goes to her instead of Bella, for some reason. She uses the knowledge of Harry's affection for Sirius against him. She is Draco's mother, in a parallel to Harry's lost mother, Lily, and she must be somewhat responsible for Draco's horrible personality. Or maybe she is Lady Macbeth to Lucius - goading him onward with his evil plans. We don't really know where the Malfoy money comes from, but I am betting it is inherited from the Black family, through Narcissa. Therefore, it is important because of the money the Malfoy's donate to St. Mungos and the MOM. Is Narcissa a power behind the house of Malfoy? Does she have a grudge against the Longbottoms, perhaps?

I don't think Trelawny is evil at all. Or she wouldn't be protected the way she is. She is like a pawn in the whole story, and I keep thinking she is a big contrast to Snape. He has the Dark Mark and is the resident "spy" apparrently, yet he is holding himself together while Trelawny is falling apart. Interesting to note that Trelawny has been at Hogwarts one year longer than Snape, yet her classes are somewhat of a sham, while his are substantial. Yet we never hear him make fun of her or deride her in any way, even at Christmas dinner in PoA, when Minerva is making fun of her.