Neville, Voldemort, and a LOT of gum [Archive] - Page 6

silver ink pot

July 13th, 2004, 6:14 pm

_spongebob_

July 13th, 2004, 6:42 pm

I think he's really really important to the story because he might still be the one in the prophecy though perhaps JK would have revealed it by now. Dumbledore must have told both sets of parents because as a result, the Potters went into hiding. I think that the reason the Longbottom's didn't was because they were aurors and Voldemorte was in power, Death Eaters were everywhere. Perhaps they felt they needed to stay and do their job. Instead, they thought to protect baby Neville by putting him under a very strong memory charm, so he couldn’t tap into or ‘remember’ his magic. They didn’t tell anyone, that we know of. The Grandmother certainly doesn’t know – I don’t think I would have told her either. But, there’s always a ‘but’, Mr. & Mrs. Longbottom didn’t count on how powerful a wizard Neville was going to be. The charm worked for years, until he was about to become part of the pavement under a tall window – then he bounced. Think about it, Neville was born at the same time as Harry, so his stars were calling for a powerful wizard and his parents were both very powerful wizards or they wouldn’t have gotten their job. Neville’s power goes haywire because it overflows, after being cooped up with the charm that is still on him. Think of book 1 when the children are being given flying lessons. Neville doesn’t do anything but mount his broom and the thing takes off. We all get side tracked because of his injury and Draco’s antics that we don’t pay to much attention to the fact that the boy soared around like that without so much as one lesson before. And did you notice that the next thing Harry is doing is saving Neville’s remembrall?
Now, looking at book 5, when Neville visits his parents, his mother make an effort to give Neville a bubble gum wrapper. JKR likes gum, just check out her website, so this is a good thing she is giving Neville. She also gives him these often, so she must think they are important. I feel this is part of the clue. After all, she would need to continue to keep up the memory charm, if she hadn’t been cursed herself. Maybe Neville’s candy had a little spell on it? She’s a mother, trying to make sure her child doesn’t fall into Voldemort’s hands. Curse or no curse, she is still trying to help Neville as any mother should.

obliviate

July 13th, 2004, 7:47 pm

Hi. I have been reading this thread for days and am so impressed with all the good detective work! This is my first post.

I was re-watching the film CoS last night because somewhere in the forums someone said Rowling put clues there (as well as the book) as to how the series ends.
At the end of the film, after Harry wins Dobby his freedom, L. Malfoy tells Harry he sticks his nose where it doesn't belong just like his parents. And Malfoy says if Harry isn't careful he'll come to the "same sticky end."

A gum reference?

Also, has there been a discussion of properties of gum or bubbles? Such as bubbles float, or are effervescent, or foam? FurryFreatFerret at some point suggested a correlation between bubbles and the hot air balloon in the Wizard of Oz.

Gum is sticky, stretches, is malleable, can harden or soften.

Thank you all for the stimulating reading!

soonerreb

July 13th, 2004, 7:58 pm

obliviate

July 13th, 2004, 11:57 pm

Another thought.

In the first book, McGonagall asks Dumbledore about the rumors that the Potters are dead. He hangs his head. She says she doesn't want to believe it. He says, "I know." But he never says they are dead.

The book makes it clear their house was destroyed, as if it exploded.

And when Hagrid comes to the shack on the rock to fetch Harry to Hogwarts, he gets argues with the Dursleys about why they never told Harry about his heritage. Petunia erupts, telling Harry her sister went off to Hogwarts, married Potter "and then, if you please, she went and got herself blown up and we got landed with you!"

What does a popped gum bubble do? Explode. Droobles makes very large bubbles. Maybe Droobles gum can be used as an explosive. Maybe Lily Potter used it against Voldemort while protecting Harry. Or maybe, since Dumbledore wouldn't come out and say it, the Potters are not dead but are in hiding to protect Harry or in some kind of coma from the bubble gum episode. Has anyone ever talked about where they are buried? Has any character admitted to having seen their dead bodies?

Maybe the Longbottoms know something about this episode and Alice, sane or not, is trying to point Neville to the truth. Maybe this really is a children's oriented series and Harry will be reunited with his parents in the end.

We know Dumbledore has withheld information from Harry throughout the series, slowly feeding it to him as he saw fit. I don't think it's inconceivable that he would not tell Harry that Harry's parents are alive he felt it was the safe or right time.

Maybe the Potters are truly dead, but with an explosion involved, I can only now think "gum." Maybe Harry has to make Voldemort explode using gum.

Just some thoughts.

whizbang121

July 14th, 2004, 12:23 am

OK, if there are any "gum purists" here you don't have to read this.:evil:

We all know that Droobles gum has amazing "bluebell bubbles." If you go back on this thread we had many discussions about this and what it could mean.

Yesterday I was watching an old movie on tv called Nancy Drew Girl Detective. She an her sidekick "Nick Nickerson" are trying to find a woman they believe is beling locked in a house. The clue they discover is the word "larkspur" and as they are driving around they see a bed of bluebells, and she says: "Larkspur is another name for "bluebell." Anyway, they rescue this woman who is being held hostage by some evil doctors and nurses - ring a bell? Ding, Ding????

It is based on the book "Password to Larkspur Lane."

http://www.geocities.com/seriesgallery/CarolynKeene/ND10.htm

The carrier pigeons are used just like owls, and the one Nancy and "Nick" see has a broken wing, just like Harry's owl in OotP!

Also, the Nick Nickerson character in the movie just reminded me so much of James Potter. He has hair falling down into his eyes and is always pushing it back. Also, remember when James is playing with the snitch and says, "I nicked it?" That has always seemed like a clue to me - Whizbang, you know! We always call James the "Snitch Nicker."

Knowing JKR's love of mystery and children's literature, I think Nancy Drew might deserve a look. I am going to read up and see if "gum" has anything to do with any of the plots. Does anyone remember? I didn't read all of the Nancy mysteries as a child, but this makes me want to read them now.
:wow: Once again, you're giving me goosebumps. I didn't read all the Nancy Drew's either, but my cousin Ginny did.

Nick Nickerson. whoa. Wouldn't that be something. Both names start with the same ititial.

Hair falling into eyes sounds like Sirius.
I'm off to check the links and look for the book in the library site. Thanks! :tu:

I seem to recall an interview when someone asked JKR why Owl Post?

She said paraphrased that the idea was the same as messenger pigeons, but owls are cooler.

The book makes it clear their house was destroyed, as if it exploded.

... she went and got herself blown up and we got landed with you!"

Has anyone ever talked about where they are buried? Has any character admitted to having seen their dead bodies? I believe Hagrid mentions seeing their bodies in PoA. Also, we learned in an interview with the director of PoA that there is a cemetery on the Hogwarts grounds, so perhaps they are buried there.

Maybe the Longbottoms know something about this episode and Alice, sane or not, is trying to point Neville to the truth. Maybe this really is a children's oriented series and Harry will be reunited with his parents in the end. Again, in an interview, JKR said we would never see a living James or Lily. Now, that doesn't mean that Harry will never find a way to communicate with his parents, or be able to seek their counsel. The feast of Samhaim at Halloween holds the best hope, it seems. But it seems very unlikely that either James or Lily is among the living. Buuuuuttt..... JKR is nothing if she's not tricky. :eyebrows:

Maybe the Potters are truly dead, but with an explosion involved, I can only now think "gum." Maybe Harry has to make Voldemort explode using gum.

Just some thoughts.

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 12:35 am

Holding the prophecy after it was removed from the shelf by the rightful person does not make one insane. Removing it from the shelf if you are not the rightful person does. Therefore, Neville was able to hold it after Harry picked it up and Lucius and the Death Eaters tried their best to get it.

That has to be it since how would LV or any of his DEs get their hands on it after Harry took it from the shelf.

whizbang121

July 14th, 2004, 1:14 am

SilverInkPot, I think you're on to something again. Mysteries, and Secrets, and Clues--Oh My! (http://www.nancydrewsleuth.com/thesleuthpg13.html) By Todd H. Latoski

How many mysteries has Nancy Drew solved? Probably not as many as you think! Sure, it’s easy to say “175!” since that was the number of books in her original series before Simon & Schuster decided to “re-boot” the line of Nancy Drew books. However, if you take another look at the titles of those first 175 books, you will find something very interesting. Nancy didn’t only solve mysteries - she also uncovered secrets, deciphered clues, figured out riddles, caught suspects, revealed messages, stopped crimes, exposed phantoms, chased down ghosts, and had numerous cases - and these are only a drop in the bucket!

In 1930, Nancy Drew began her career when she uncovered The Secret of the Old Clock. The secret, as we know, turned out to be the Crowley will that had gone missing. But this was only the first secret she brought to light in her illustrious career. Of the 175 books chronicling her adventures, Nancy managed to uncover a total of 23 secrets, including one at Shadow Ranch, one at Candlelight Inn, one at Red Gate Farm, one at Solaire, one at Shady Glen, one in an Old Attic, one in a Forgotten City, one that was Lost at Sea, one under a Golden Pavilion, and one in some Old Lace, just to name a few. She almost found out the Gondolier’s Secret, but it turned out to be a mystery involving a winged lion instead.

Nancy’s next book found her searching for something hidden. A staircase, a window, and an inheritance all came to light with Nancy’s sleuthing skills.

It wasn’t until her third book that Nancy solved her first mystery, with The Bungalow Mystery. This started her down the road to solving a whopping 46 mysteries (which are twice as many secrets that she uncovered, and more than twice as many clues and cases!). Some of these mysteries included an Ivory Charm, a Moss-Covered Mansion, a Scarlet Slipper, a Fire Dragon, a Double Jinx, a Kachina Doll, an Emerald Eye Cat, a Missing Millionairess, a Fox Hunt, a Ski Jump, a Jade Tiger, a Missing Mascot, and on one occasion, a Flying Saucer! Her last mystery was a holiday mystery solved under the Mistletoe!

Nancy began deciphering clues in her seventh book, The Clue in the Diary. She managed to figure out 20 clues during her first 175 books. Some of these clues were found in Broken Lockets, Jewel Boxes, Old Albums, and Velvet Masks. Other clues were discovered in Ancient Disguises, Dancing Puppets, Ancient Trunks, Crystal Doves, and one was even on the Silver Screen. The last clues she set out to decode were a true Challenge!

Along the way, Nancy has managed to come across various other signs, messages, whispers, symbols, quests, hauntings, ghosts, phantoms, suspects, riddles, dangers, and searches. Her first real case, however, wasn’t until her eightieth book, when she became embroiled in The Case of the Disappearing Diamonds. This case, of course, led her to a total of 15 cases, such as cases involving a Vanishing Veil, a Rising Star, a Disappearing Deejay, a Dangerous Solution, a Captured Queen, and a Lost Song. Nancy always managed to come out the winner - no matter how close of a Photo Finish each case was.

Nancy has also managed to resolve some crimes, whether it be in the Queen’s Court or in a Riding Club. Of course, there was also the Wild Cat Crime and the Crime Lab Case that kept her on her toes! Then there were legends to untangle, such as the one of the Emerald Lady, the tale of the Lost Gold, and the story of Miner’s Creek.

Lest we forget, Nancy was also good with numbers! She managed to outwit the bad guys searching for the Thirteenth Pearl, the magicians playing the Triple Hoax, the scary incidents that caused the Double Horror at Fenley Place, following the Ninety-Nine Steps, and the ones who played the Double Jinx. She had two times the fun when she faced the Twin Dilemma and the Twin Teddy Bears.

Aside from her mysteries, secrets, clues, cases, crimes, and other tales of her sleuthing, Nancy had some rather unique adventures along the way. She chased down an Invisible Intruder, faced a Race Against Time, met the <> Girl Who Couldn’t Remember, became involved in a Door-to-Door Deception, was On the Trail of Trouble, found the Key in the Satin Pocket, hid from the Stranger in the Shadows, got Lost in the Everglades, and tracked down an Elusive Heiress. Her last book, however, had to be the most unique of them all; who ever thought that Nancy Drew would track down a Werewolf in Winter Wonderland?
Then various reviews from Amazon. Blue wheel of fire?! Weasley's Wizarding Whizbangs? Nancy Drew solves two mysteries when she learns the origins of an eerie wheel of fire

The most poetic title in the Drew series., April 25, 2003
Reviewer: A customer from United States
"Password" and "Larkspur Lane" -- these terms echo each other as much as "Lenore" and "Nevermore" do in Poe's "The Raven." It is fitting, then, that this is one of the better Keene books in the Nancy canon. I am reviewing my childhood reading, made possible by Applewood reissues and the continued availability of the Grosset & Dunlap revised titles. It is a truism that the early books (despite their out-of-fashion references and language, and their social stereotypes) are always better than the revisions, and it's often true that the originals are more satisfying, stylish stories. I enjoy the mysteries screeching to a halt while the girls indulge in their noon "luncheon." However, in this title I have to go with the revision. It's a masterful rewrite, condensing and reorganizing the early story while cutting out a lot of leisurely pacing that slows the story down. Perhaps Nancy's greatest strength as a detective is her unwillingness to give up; when she has no clues or prospects of any in this novel, she drives the roads outside of her midwest town until she finds one (a crude sign on a tree with "L. L." posted on it). Can't get into a prison-like old folks' home? Impersonate an elderly lady. Get thrown into a deep cistern? Use the pieces of a ladder thrown in after you to claw your way up the wall. The criminals are getting away in a small plane? Let the gas out of it before they can take off. Meanwhile she still has time to win first prize in a flower arranging competition. Nancy is simply too much, and knowing her has been one of the delights of my life. --.

This review concerns the original 1933 edition and the revised 1966 edition which has a story similar to the original version. Nancy finds a carrier pigeon which contains a strange coded message. Later, the family's doctor tells Nancy of how he was kidnapped and taken to a large home to treat an elderly lady, whom he believed was being held against her will. Armed with a bracelet the doctor managed to slip off of the old lady's wrist as her only clue, Nancy sets off determined to find the house and free the old woman. The revised edition has an added mystery concerning a spooky, blue circle of fire which has been appearing recently in the woods outside of the new home of Nancy's friend Helen's grandparents. Personally, I liked the original edition much better than the revised edition. The writing was better and the book flowed along a lot better than the revised edition did. The extra mystery in the revised edition seemed out of place and really didn't make the book more interesting. The main mystery of the book, Nancy trying to find the elderly woman, was good and is typical Nancy Drew, with Nancy risking her life attempting to help someone else. Both editions were fairly suspenceful and had exciting endings; although again, I prefered the ending in the original story. Either edition is worth reading, but I give the original 3 1/2 stars, while I give the revised 3 stars. --.

As I lay in bed sniffling this weekend I read Password to Larkspur Lane. Carson gives Nancy a new black and green roadster for her birthday (she gets it early as she needs to evade some thugs who have been spying on the house and they would have recognized her old maroon roadster.) Then she speeds off to Sylvan Lake to join Helen Corning and her parents at the much larger cottage they have taken this summer. Ned Nickerson is also there and Nancy is the belle of the Yacht Club dance, in addition to beating the pants off the snooty "amateur swim champion" who instigated a diving competition because she resented Nancy getting all the male attention on the swim platform. She also wins the adulation of everyone at the lake when she rescues a tot who falls in the water in front of a speedboat, but is duely modest about it, considering that the little girl fell in as a result of Nancy's having questioned her after hearing her name. Nancy and Helen enjoy a few luxurious rides in the splendid new machine as they search for a remote estate surrounded by larkspurs/delphiniums to solve the mystery Nancy stumbled upon as she happened to drive by a car that mysteriously had the windows up even though the weather was clear (actually, the book said the curtains were drawn--did cars come with window curtains in 1933?) Nancy actually falls into dire straits but, fortunately, had the foresight to call Ned beforehand so he could fly in with some burly pals (and Carson, who just happened to be at the local airport as they were about to take off in their just-the-right-size-to-land-in-the-back-yard plane) in the nick of time to thwart the evildoers who were bilking wealthy older women.

Oh, Nancy also won 1st place for her flower arrangement of larkspurs at the Blenheim Flower Show. Of course.

obliviate

July 14th, 2004, 1:25 am

Thanks, whizbang121, for the info. I admit (mom with two kids) I don't keep up with the Rowling interviews. Maybe I should start, if it's as entertaining as this forum.

I looked through Prizoner of Azkaban and saw where Hagrid told Harry he pulled baby Harry from the ruins. I didn't find a specific reference to the Potters' bodies, but I will keeping looking for it.

Something I did find was Harry's encounter with the dementor in which he heard his mother begging for Harry's life. Then Voldemort said "Step out of the way, you silly girl." Then Lilly begged some more, and screamed (the passage doesn't make clear whether she screamed because she was being attacked or because Harry was being attacked).

Anyway, it struck me as odd that Voldemort called Lily "you silly girl." She didn't strike me, from others' accounts as a goofy person. So did he say that because she had just blown, and was holding, an enormous bubble?

whizbang121

July 14th, 2004, 1:27 am

Hmmm... I thought it was at the Leaky Cauldron. Gotta check.

Gum and explosions are interesting. I call my avatar The Bomb at Thirteen. I believe that Harry blew up the house in Godric's Hollow, and Petunia knows it. In PS/SS, when Harry suggests they leave him home alone and go to the zoo, Petunia says something like, and come home and find the house blown to bits? Harry replies, "I won't blow up the house." Vernon is always looking at him like he's a "bomb that could go off at any second." The OotP is guarding a weapon that Harry and the Weasley twins believe is Harry himself. Harry is dangerous when his emotions are out of control. Ron and Hermione must have been alerted to that fact because they walk on eggs around his volatile phase in OotP. Hermione frequently trembles and stutters.

Harry is the Bomb.

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 1:54 am

Harry is the Bomb.

Da Bomb. :p

JackelPDW

July 14th, 2004, 2:13 am

I don't know if any of you ever figured this out...but look at this anagram:

Drooble's best blowing gum = gold bribe below St. Mungo's

whizbang121

July 14th, 2004, 2:31 am

I don't know if any of you ever figured this out...but look at this anagram:

Drooble's best blowing gum = gold bribe below St. Mungo's

Okay, on the count of three ...
"Who's that little old man?" ~ A Hard Day's Night

:welcome: JeckelPDW. Yes, we've had that one before. This is one of the more interesting threads on CoSforums. I cordially invite you to browse the pages and pick one post, preferably a big one, on each page. Some real thoughtful material here.

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 3:58 am

hey whizbang, regarding the paperflowergirl post you linked to: I don't really think that JKR knows all that much about India. I happen to know a lot about Indian mythology, and there is really not much in the HP books from India. Naginis are female snake creatures who often guard treasure, either real or metaphorical, like wisdom. The name St. Mungo's, besides maybe coming from the real St. Mungo, who is not Indian, may come from the Indian plant mungo that cures snakebite; mungo is also another name for the mongoose, which fights snakes. But the bit about Harry and Hari is pretty farfetched in my opinion, since they don't even sound alike. I mean, it is just as likely that Harry is like Herakles (which has crossed my mind before!). And Garuda is not a phoenix. While he does have a particular hostility to snakes, the mythology of the animosity between birds and snakes is extremely common, throughout the world. But phoenixes are specifically associated with their spectacular rebirth from the flames, which Garuda does not do (though he is narratively linked to the nectar of immortality).

Gosh, now I feel so argumentative and contentious, after all the nice things you said about this thread being one where knowledge is forged through conversation. It's not that I'm not open to the possibility that JKR draws from all kinds of sources (I was the origin of that Walter Scott business, after all!), but I also feel quite strongly that we should try not to allow false appearances of similarity run roughshod over other people's religious traditions. I'm pretty certain that Harry Potter is not Vishnu. Moreover, I think that Rowling is fairly sensitive to the politics of such things, which is why she really only draws upon mythology that is no longer connected to people's current religious practices.

Oh, and I know a little girl in India who wrote to JKR to tell her that she ought to set one of the Harry Potter books in India because there is such a wonderful tradition of magic in India, and JKR actually wrote her back to say that she didn't have any plans just then to set any of the books in India, and that she didn't know a lot about India but that the little girl's letter made her think that she really ought to learn more. (When she related this story to me, my opinion of JKR raised just that much more!)
When I see some of the incredible research that forum members develop, I am always in awe. Under the surface we can see commonalities and evidence of sources. But I have to agree that the HP books are not a simple allegory or translocation of ideas from literature, mythology, science, astronomy, history, religion, etc. It is a synthesis borrowing ideas and converting them to new uses in the stories.

It is fascinating to see how closely some of the ideas track their sources, but I don't think we can go the further step and assume that is the sole hidden meaning we are to extract. I am convinced that JKR uses these sources for background ideas only, and that what we get in the stories are something entirely new.

Sabine: It would be great if JKR's work could be translated into twenty languages and retain the anagrams for each one in each language. But how could that be possible? I don't really understand why Voldemort's name has to be changed for any translation. JKR would have to be God in order to make all he anagrams come out the same way in every language.

But I believe there are many anagrams in these books. I found one yesterday that I have not seen mentioned anywhere and it is not a name, but in English it is meaningful! It is in GoF, when Mrs. Weasley brings the school supplies home, she gives Harry his "dress" robes and they are described as "bottle-green." I found that a strange color for JKR to use descriptively, so I stared at it for a while and realized it is an anagram for "enter goblet." I think JKR hides anagrams in alot of her descriptions.

I can understand your frustration with a book translated from another language. I have read translated books and wondered if the language was totally changed and whether I was having the same experience as someone who can read the book in its original language.

As an English-speaking American, I was angry when I heard that the British translation was different! Do they think our children are so slow that they can't learn British terms for things? I grew up reading The Borrowers and The Wind in the Willows and Charles Dickens and Charlotte Bronte!

I am also annoyed at not being allowed to read the English version in English. I fear I am losing something intangible.

Now as for bottle-green, it is a color. I think that finding all these anagrams is a lot of fun. But we really have to get a grip. I've pointed out in the Perseus Evans thead, that it would be an incredible feat to push all these anagrams to all languages. It was hard enough to do it once with LV.

obliviate

July 14th, 2004, 4:20 am

Excellent, whizbang121, I can totally see that Harry could be the bomb, as in causing things to explode. He did blow up Aunt Marge. Maybe he did something like that to Voldemort. He also escaped Dudley at school once by shooting himself to onto the roof, when he had only meant to jump into a bush.

But does the gum have anything to do with it? And could something have exploded OUT of Harry's head where the scar is? We know he can do magic, such as the Aunt Marge incident, without a wand. Maybe baby Harry did his thing simply because he heard his mommy screaming. So love did protect him.

Drooble also kind of sounds like drool or dribble -- things babies do.

I can't stop thinking about an earlier discussion on this thread about the bluebell color of the gum. Someone say bluebells stand for loyalty, which is a strong theme in the books. Dumbledore told Harry in the CoS that Fawlkes came to help him because Harry showed great loyalty to Dumbledore. Could the gum be imbued with a property like that and it helped at least one Potter?

Another possible gum reference: Back to the first book, in the shack on the rock, Hagrid tells Harry about his parents. Then Uncle Vernon says that's a load of rubbish. Vernon says Harry's parents were weirdos and asked for all they got -- "just what I expected, always knew they'd come to a STICKY (my emphasis) end --"

Then Hagrid leaps up and warns Vernon not to say another word.

So maybe Petunia and Vernon know what happened that day. Maybe Hagrid does, too.

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 4:45 am

I think I'm in a blah negative mood today since I am also savaging a TV show I'm watching. But here goes. I think the gum scene with Neville was one of the most poignant scenes JKR has written. Neville's quiet pain was readily apparent. In fact, it is quite a while in OotP until he can actually mention it to the others. There could be a hidden meaning in the wrappers, but I don't think it is an anagram. The best suggestion I've seen is that they are a protective charm. But as Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

Neville's role is growing and I think we need to get to know him better. We get that in this scene which enables us to empathize with him.

I also think that the comparison between the meager gifts Harry gets from the Dursleys, and the way Neville treasures his meager gift is significant. We continue to get parallels between Harry and Neville. But the prophecy is about Harry, however much Neville will be important.

I don't think the Longbottoms are faking it. But I can't rule out Lucius Malfoy having a hand in their continuing illness. But, if that is the case, all he is trying to hide is his involvement with the torture of the Longbottoms.

whizbang121

July 14th, 2004, 5:12 am

obliviate

July 14th, 2004, 5:48 am

My brain is gummed up with the gum issue for now. But on a completely unrelated note, did anyone else get the impression from PoA that the first big patronus Harry produced, which was during the Quidditch match, was NOT a stag? Is there a thread on this anywhere? I could not find one.

The book doesn't state what shape that patronus took. But it clearly shook up Lupin, who said it was most unusual. Lupin seemed scared, to me. But stags don't strike me as particularly unusual or scary. And I got the impression from something Dumbledore said that Harry produced a stag later in the story because he had learned his father had been able to transform into a stag.

Help! Please point me toward the appropriate thread.

whizbang121

July 14th, 2004, 5:53 am

Try this one?Harry's Patronus (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=25460&page=2&pp=30&highlight=patronus)

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 6:16 am

So we have two references to the Potters coming to a sticky end. Gum is sticky. But, frustratingly, there are just no rooms full of telltale blue bubbles anywhere. What else have we seen that's sticky. The stinksap, maybe?

Does "sticky" have a particular meaning in British slang? To me, it only implies that they were murdered. But ......... :huh:

I wonder if we're approaching Droobles the wrong way. Maybe its a different kind of code. A cryptogram?

Thanks whiz, between the plant and the sticky end, I think there are some allusions there. I had always thought if not an anagram, that a cryptogram would be logical, epecially if Alice doesn't have all her marbles. Hermione might be the one for this problem. But then Luna has shown a skill for runes and puzzles. Maybe that's where Luna comes in, because she thinks outside the box, and might be more likely to acknowledge something odd about the wrappers.

emerald eyes

July 14th, 2004, 6:27 am

I haven't read back at all but speaking of sticky ends, did anyone mention the part from CoS where Malfoy say the same thing?

"You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days, Harry Potter," he said softly. "They were meddlesome fools, too."
p. 428 US Paperback ed.

Sorry if its already been mentioned... :blush:

Jm1234

July 14th, 2004, 6:33 am

Maybe JK is trying to reiterate the continuing idea of "mothers love," though simple and somewhat sad...Nevilles mother gives him the wrappers because she loves him, she thinks he'll like them, etc. I know it seems an indirect way to show the idea but its just a thought:)

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 6:35 am

I just had a painful brainwave that is only related to this page because of the sticky end allusion.

Aragog makes sticky webs as do the rest of the acromantulas. He has no love for TR. I can easily see Aragog getting revenge for Hagrid (especially if Hagrid dies). Then I'd have to change my mind and make Hagrid the HPB.

Well, I'll go try to find another place for this idea, maybe the layers thread.

Kookiemon

July 14th, 2004, 6:47 am

Let me start off by stating that I am a supporter of the anagram hypothesis and I think there is some significance to the Drooble's Best Blowing Gum.

Being the "Second gunmen" , aliens are real, OJ did it theorist that I am; here I go.

Anagram of :
Drooble's --> Old Robes

I know that is a little out in leftfield during the seventh inning stretch, but there is more. What would be the significance of "old robes"? We read in "Chamber of Secrets" that it is possible to store your spirit, soul, personality, thoughts or whatever it is into inanimate objects. That IS how Lord Voldemort managed to possess Ginny. What if Frank and Alice Longbottom had stored that whatever into their old robes before they were tortured? What if those robes could be used to restore them to their normal selves?

And to comment on the request for an anagram program. Please see another post I made regarding that particular request.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1071813&postcount=366

HeirOfRavenclaw

July 14th, 2004, 6:58 am

So we have two references to the Potters coming to a sticky end. Gum is sticky. But, frustratingly, there are just no rooms full of telltale blue bubbles anywhere.Wow, this is a great thought that had never occured to me, and when you wrote this im suprised you didnt see that the answer to your fustration is right before your eyes. Ill be back with an exact quote to help you out....

*reminds himself to not talk in the forums with out the books present*

In St. Mungo's page 487 American Hardback...

"They followed through the double doors and along the narrow corridor beyond, which was lined with more portraits of famous Healers and lit by crystal bubbles full of candles that floated up to the ceiling, looking like giant soapsuds."

Significants... I'm not sure, but it did seem intersting to say the least :eyebrows:

ComicBookWorm

July 14th, 2004, 7:38 am

FredWeasleyJr

July 14th, 2004, 7:41 am

gold bribe below st mungos?!?!?! it just doesnt make any sense...i think once all of u saw tom marvolo riddle get turned into I am Lord Voldemort u all got a little carried away

Kookiemon

July 14th, 2004, 4:37 pm

The only reason I have decided to be against anagrams is that it doesn't work in other languages. It is even harder to do it with common objects than proper names.Translating from one language to another is always difficult. Just look at the posting guidelines for this forum. There are rules regarding the use of proper English in deference to those people who speak, read, and write English as a Second Language. Despite all the time and care I take to ensure that people will understand my posts, there are no guarantees that an accurate translation exists for all languages.

A lot of meaning tends to be lost, especially when it is from English to another language, however, I do not believe that is an issue J.K. Rowling concerned herself with in at least the first three books. I am inclined to believe that it's not an overall concern of hers in any of the books. If the double meanings are lost in translation, then that is unfortunate. The point is that she initially wrote the books for an English-speaking and English-reading audience.

Aside from that, foreign publishers will go to great lengths to maintain the continuity of the books. I have seen the foreign publishers modify the names of major characters, keep the English names, completely change the names, and invent new words to make it work.

Here is one publisher who talks about all the nuances of translating the Harry Potter books into Swedish.

http://www.swedishbookreview.com/old/2002s-gedin.html

Here is another site which lists some of the items in the books in other languages.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/List%20of%20wizarding%20terms%20in%20translations% 20of%20Harry%20Potter

I don't know enough about those other languages to tell you about any possible anagrams. I would not be so hasty to say that there aren't any though and maintaining the continuity of a story line does not require publisher's to use exact translations. My previous hypothesis regarding "Drooble's" being an anagram for "old robes" does not need to be the same in a foreign language. An anagram in another language could be for an "old hat", "old shoes", or a "broomstick". Irregardless of the object used, the same effect could be accomplished resulting in the recovery of Fred and Alice Longbottom.

But as mentioned, it is only a hypothesis for people to ponder. I, as several others, would like to see the full recovery of Frank and Alice Longbottom, or was it Fred and Wilma? :)

GryffindorSeeker

July 14th, 2004, 4:45 pm

Cookiemon, it's Frank. :p

The anagrams are a good way to get a headache, but they can be very interesting. As for the gold bribe, why not? I can't remember and I can't look it up at the moment, wasn't there something about a gold bribe under St Mungos in the Quibbler? I feel like an idiot asking, but was there? :lol:

Kookiemon

July 14th, 2004, 10:07 pm

The anagrams are a good way to get a headache, but they can be very interesting. As for the gold bribe, why not? I can't remember and I can't look it up at the moment, wasn't there something about a gold bribe under St Mungos in the Quibbler? I feel like an idiot asking, but was there? :lol:
Nope. It was an assertion made by someone else in a previous post.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1072157&postcount=1017

It too was an anagram of "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum". :)

whizbang121

July 15th, 2004, 12:03 am

I think it's an old Mugglenet anagram solution to Droobles Best Blowing Gum.

On the Layers thread, Purplehawk noted that on JKR's website as the graphics are loading, the gum wrappers seem to form the numbers 713. (I haven't checked this, yet.) 713 was the number of the vault that Hagrid took the Philosopher's Stone out of when he brought Harry to Gringotts for the first time.

This reminds me of Silver Ink Pot's quote from Lex Luthor, which I will go look for.

Being the "Second gunmen" , aliens are real, OJ did it theorist that I am; here I go. Scorpio? ;)

Anagram of :
Drooble's --> Old Robes

I know that is a little out in leftfield during the seventh inning stretch, but there is more. What would be the significance of "old robes"? We read in "Chamber of Secrets" that it is possible to store your spirit, soul, personality, thoughts or whatever it is into inanimate objects. That IS how Lord Voldemort managed to possess Ginny. What if Frank and Alice Longbottom had stored that whatever into their old robes before they were tortured? What if those robes could be used to restore them to their normal selves?

This brings me again back to the idea of a fidelius charm. I've wondered on a couple of threads whether Harry is the keeper of a secret that one of his parents hid in him with the fidelius. Retrieving the memory of whatever secret he may be keeping becomes another mystery to solve. My current guess is that it's the secret of his heritage.

What if Alice is a secret keeper? What secret may she have stored in her innermost being? And are the gumwrappers an attempt to reveal her secret to Neville the way Moody showed Harry the slip of paper from Dumbledore revealing Grimmauld Place to him?

Is it related to what was once the contents of vault 713?

By the way, I picked up the Nancy Drew at the library today. I'll start it later.

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 3:30 am

"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."

While the comicbook purist in me protests loudly that the movies aren't continuity (canon), I have to admit that JKR may not be aware of comicbook lore. So here is the quote for your reading entertainment.

whizbang121

July 15th, 2004, 4:00 am

You found it! Thanks!

I actually have Silver Ink Pots entire post:

I have been looking for something new for us to talk about, and I tripped over a few things tonight. I was searching for something about famous villains who chew gum, and I found this from the Superman movie. This is a quote from Lex Luthor, Superman's arch enemy.

"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."
I found that on a movie trivia quiz:
http://www.twcnebraska.com/cable/ppv_may03.shtml

What do you think? Do you like that? It really makes you wonder about Neville and those gum wrappers, LOL!
I have never read or collected Superman comic books, but I may start looking at Lex Luthor a little more closely! Here is more:

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor

Luthor's stated goals are to kill Superman and to take over the world as a stepping stone to dominating the universe. Over the years, Luthor came up with every conceivable plan to destroy Superman; he has synthesized Kryptonite, travelled back in time, summoned beings from the Fourth Dimension, created robots, clones, and genetic monstrosities, allied himself with the alien super-computer Brainiac, animated Kryptonite rocks, detonated H-Bombs, and has masqueraded and taken on a number of aliases. During the 1980s Luthor adopted a powersuit that allowed him to battle Superman physically. Although none of his schemes worked permanently (though one classic "imaginary story" from the 1960s called The Death of Superman has Luthor finally killing Superman with Kryptonite after lulling him by pretending to go straight) Luthor's persistence has made him Superman's most troublesome foe.
Though originally portrayed with a full head of red hair, from 1941 onwards Luthor came to be portrayed as completely bald due to the mistake made by an artist who worked on the Superman daily comic strip. Shuster preferred drawing bald villains anyway, so the more striking bald appearance — a Luthor trademark — was thereby adopted. Several years later a back-story finally filled in how Luthor lost his hair, and that Luthor's hatred of Superman stemmed from a childhood incident where a teenaged Superboy used his superbreath to extinguish a fire that had broken out in Luthor's lab. Unfortunately for him, during this rescue attempt chemicals were spilled, causing Luthor to go prematurely bald and destroying Luthor's successful attempt to create new life through chemistry which might have also cured Superboy of his susceptibility to kryptonite. Luthor attributed Superboy's acts to jealousy on the Kryptonian's part and vowed revenge.

See the actual comic book pictures of Lex losing his hair here:
http://superman.ws/tales2/luthor/?page=9

Though he was a noted villain and an evil mastermind on Earth, Luthor was revered as a hero on the alien world of Lexor, where he utilized his scientific genius to rediscover the planet's technology and rebuilt society for the inhabitants. Superman himself has acknowledged that Luthor is a man of his word who would honor promises he made. Luthor had a younger blond-haired sister, Lena Thorul (her last name an anagram of "Luthor"), an empath who grew up unaware of her familial connection with the noted villain. Protective of his sister, Luthor had strived to hide his connection and had been assisted towards this end by both Supergirl and Superman.

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 4:14 am

Oh and just to keep the record straight--although I don't know why I feel compelled to do so, the current Superman continuity doesn't use the hair loss device or the super-scientist persona for Lex Luthor. He's an evil, machiavellian, rapacious, multi-national corporate megalomanic and somehow got elected President of the US. He does hate Superman because he can't control him or dominate him, and Superman keeps foiling his plots.

But again, I doubt that JKR knows that. The current version of the continuity has been in place for almost 20 years--except for becoming President, which happened the same time the current President Bush did (so I think there is a little political commentary in that change).

But most people who know anything about Superman know either the movies' or the old super-scientist personas for Lex Luthor. It's like separating canon from fanon--just gotta do it.

And I can't resist. There is another parallel to HP in the current continuity. Luthor was dying from radiation poisoning because he always wore a kryptonite ring. First he lost his hand, and then he wore a metal one, and then he died. So fear of his nemesis was his undoing, just like LV going to the Godric's Hollow undid him. And just like LV he came back in another body. I don't think there is a deliberate parallel here other than common thematic elements.

_beau

July 15th, 2004, 8:07 am

GryffindorSeeker

July 15th, 2004, 3:40 pm

Or it might just be a representation of her actual desk. She's mentioned before that it's littered with gum wrappers. Gum helped her overcome her smoking addiction.

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 3:49 pm

Or it might just be a representation of her actual desk. She's mentioned before that it's littered with gum wrappers. Gum helped her overcome her smoking addiction.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. She eats a lot of gum, she thinks about gum.

One of my cats is named Newt, and she was jumping all over the keyboard while my daughter was writing, so my daughter named a villain Newt.

A wonderful JKR example is naming Marietta Edgecomb when it was the Marietta school system that banned her books.

GryffindorSeeker

July 15th, 2004, 4:19 pm

:lol: That's always true. I was just mentioning how that might not just be from the plot, but also for what her desk really looks like. That's like how I was on a hot cocoa obsession (which I still am) and made the main character love it. :D

whizbang121

July 15th, 2004, 4:33 pm

Yeah this could be something, becuase on JK's website she also has alot of Gum wrappers on her table. And we all know how she likes too put little clues on her web site. Though we'll just have too wait and see.
Someone mentioned that as the page loads, the wrappers under her keyboard seem to form the number 713, the same as the Gingotts vault that Hagrid took the Philosopher's Stone from. :huh:

Is it possible that Alice is a secret keeper and she's trying to share her secret with Neville using the wrappers?

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 4:35 pm

Someone mentioned that as the page loads, the wrappers under her keyboard seem to form the number 713, the same as the Gingotts vault that Hagrid took the Philosopher's Stone from. :huh:

Is it possible that Alice is a secret keeper and she's trying to share her secret with Neville using the wrappers?

I couldn't see the 713 when I looked.

Kimmetje

July 15th, 2004, 4:37 pm

I think that that's an interesting theory, but what is in the Hogwart's vault?

whizbang121

July 15th, 2004, 4:52 pm

As far as we know, nothing anymore. Voldemort tried to break into it the same day Hagrid took the stone out of it. I haven't seen the number, either. Guess I should go over and take a look. :whistle:

Hey, you know what? I can see it! Under the keyboard and between the biography notebook and the cup of pens, there's a crumple of gum wrappers. It only takes a little imagination to see 713. the Doxy lands on the space bar right over the 1.

This is probably a great red herring, but......
What the heck? We've put everything else under a microscope. :lol:

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 4:56 pm

Dedalus Diggle

July 15th, 2004, 4:57 pm

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 4:59 pm

A-hah - Alice Longbottom is trying to tell Neville that Vault 713 is filled with gumwrappers - it must be something truly valuable, like a complete collection of all the Bazooka Joe cartoons ever used! :agree:

:p Ha. Really off topic. But a friend of mine found exactly that in her grandmother's attic. It was worth a fortune.

Fingolfin

July 15th, 2004, 6:16 pm

I was just looking at the gum wrappers and yes i can definately see 713 .. i tryed putting into the phone ... nothing happened but does anyone know the significance of the phone it beeps and stuff so you can ring someone or something. I tryed putting the numbers i can make out on the notice board and that didnt work ....

hmmmmmmmm interesting :shrug:

I was looking at the 713 thing and I just by accident left JKRowling.com on for a while, someones probably already mentioned this or noticed it.

Well after a while wind blows accross the desk and the watch goes a bit weird with loads of arrows on it, maybe a bit like the weasly's clock and then the phone goes but it just seems to ask if anyones there. But the watch thing looks intriguing ......

Liv4Sirius

July 15th, 2004, 6:31 pm

It took me a few minutes before I could trick my mind into thinking I could see 713 in the wrappers, but I did it. At the top of the page? I dont think it's significant though

HeirOfRavenclaw

July 15th, 2004, 7:23 pm

I was just looking at the gum wrappers and yes i can definately see 713 .. i tryed putting into the phone ... nothing happened but does anyone know the significance of the phone it beeps and stuff so you can ring someone or something. I tryed putting the numbers i can make out on the notice board and that didnt work ....
Just so that everyone knows, on JKR's site, by typing in the code to get into the ministry of magic on the phone you get extra content from the site.... Everyone probably knows this but i just found it so i thought id share with anyone who didnt. By the way the code is 62442 if you didnt know!

LexxiSmiles

July 15th, 2004, 7:26 pm

I was happy to see this topic. I thought as soon as I read that part in the book that there was something significant there. And then, after going to www.jkrowling.com and seeing all those gum wrappers on her "desk", I am almost certain this is important. I think that Alice is starting to recover, and this is some way she's trying to communicate with Neville. I can't wait until book 6 to find out more about this gum thing.

LilyoftheEarth

July 15th, 2004, 7:35 pm

Dedalus Diggle

July 15th, 2004, 8:58 pm

I personally think that there has to be something about the gum!! I mean, even if it's something completely pointless and not really important to the rest of the books, there is some thing more to it! But, I suppose we'll just have to wait to find out!
It would be hilarious if it turns out that the gumwrappers are Alice's way of smuggling out a message reminding Neville to wash behind his ears, or something equally irrelevant.

mysticdawn

July 15th, 2004, 9:44 pm

It's definitely interesting but perhaps we are over analyzing. I think it really evokes a sense of pity(and in some cases empathy) in us for Neville. Perhaps Neville does have a part to play in the story, after all he was the only other one born as"the seventh month dies".
I think Neville really would want to take revenge and I guess Harry , witnessing all this, would have more than one reason for fighting Voldemort and wanting to kill him. :huh:

GryffindorSeeker

July 15th, 2004, 9:54 pm

Never say we're over analyzing. Never. It makes us difficult to deal with and hard to control. :p Seriously though, we know we probably are over analyzing some parts, but if you really get into this theory, it gets too realistic not to be real. Then you're a lost cause, like me. :D

It would be hilarious if it turns out that the gumwrappers are Alice's way of smuggling out a message reminding Neville to wash behind his ears, or something equally irrelevant.
That would be excellent! :rotfl: Alice mothering Neville via gum wrappers!

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 9:56 pm

Neville is going to bite the dust somewhere near the end maybe even facilitating LV demise. That way JKR doesn't have to kill Ron.

DanIsRad1355

July 15th, 2004, 9:57 pm

Hmm...went to Anagramsite.com to look for some anagrams and typed in "alice longbottom" One of the anagrams that came up was "angelic tomb tool" Maybe she's the key to opening something. Ooh maybe the veil, since thats kind of like a tomb and the things behind them are sort of like angels maybe? Or would I just be totally overanalyzing this?

Dedalus Diggle

July 15th, 2004, 9:58 pm

Perhaps it is really meant as a counterbalance to the death of Sirius - Harry is both angry with himself and feels sorry for himself over Sirius' death, but then he has this image of Neville dealing with this living-death of his parents, hanging onto a few pitiful scraps of trash as his only connection, and Harry will see the importance of not giving up or wallowing in his own problems.

grianne

July 16th, 2004, 12:08 am

Since this thread is 36 pages and might well take me that many years to read it all, I'm just popping in here to see if any of you have the read the SILK GOWNS theory about the gum wrappers: http://www.geocities.com/rsfjenny/HP/silkgowns.html

Basically SILK GOWNS purports that the gum or the wrappers are somehow tainted and that someone (they have a list of suspects, my own preference is Lucius Malfoy) is keeping them from recovering from their imbalanced mental state in this way. Interestingly they mention that if it has to do with the wrappers then that might explain the seeming incompetence of Neville and Healer Strout (both come into contact with wrappers and might have picked up some side effects from the poison).

I did a search for SILK GOWNS but I don't know if anyone possibly mentioned the poison theory somewhere in here but not related to this Theory Bay ship. Anyway, check out the page nonetheless. They give a lot of canon evidence for their ideas.

furryfreakferret

July 16th, 2004, 12:43 am

Forgive me, guys. I fell behind again. :sigh: Will you PLEASE slow down!

Perhaps you don't diverge, but instead you divulge - admit it, Triple-F, you in fact are JKR! :blush: Wow! There's a compliment I never expected to hear from anyone! Unfortuantly, I can't take credit for what I haven't done. But, I'll play along. Yes -- haha! -- you discover my secret identity! Unfortuantly, this means you all must be locked up until the publishing of book 7 in my secret, underground dungeon to prevent you from revealing my secrets! But, don't fret. I have enough bubblegum to keep everyone happy. ;)

Hmmm... larkspur, Nick (Nearly Headless, who I think could be a canidate for a certain prince?), a carrier pigeon with a broken wing.... You know, there are some similarities, aren't there, ink? Did you ever find any references to bubblegum? I bet there are some. Personally, I've never read a Nacy Drew book (though my mother says if she sees another Boxcar Children book, it'll be too soon). Maybe this is a reason to start?

_spongebob_, you may have a point about Neville being a powerful wizard. But.... Hmmm... I think I must go reread that bit in PS/SS when I'm through here (the first flying lesson. Sorry, I really probably should have included a quote.). I thought it mentioned something about Neville kicking off too soon. Though... we're only ever given Harry's perceptions, aren't we?

Does "sticky" have a particular meaning in British slang? To me, it only implies that they were murdered. But ......... Well, I'm not British, as you all well know since I had to come here looking for translations, but there is "sticky wicket", which I think means a difficult situation, I never have been quite able to tell. As far as other sticky items which occur in the books... nothing comes to mind. Maybe some other candy Honeydukes sells?

What if Alice is a secret keeper? What secret may she have stored in her innermost being? And are the gumwrappers an attempt to reveal her secret to Neville the way Moody showed Harry the slip of paper from Dumbledore revealing Grimmauld Place to him? Nice one, whiz! I never looked at it like that before.... Hmm.... But what secret could she be keeping? Do the gum wrappers really make a 713? Wow! I say we call it a clue. So... who says the secret to the Longbottom's recovery is in Vault 713? Maybe... maybe it's the Tomb Bug! Aha! Wow... Ded, you've brainwashed me, mate! Has anyone tried clicking on the gum wrappers to see if they smooth out or open up? I'd do it myself but... :sigh: my computer won't let me see the graphics at all.

Also... did you read that article about Jo taking a stand for the hospital patients who had cages around their beds? Sound like anything we've been theorizing?

Oh! and, obliviate, mugglenet.com has a list of many of the interviews Rowling has given. That'll save you the trouble of searching for them. Good luck!

obliviate

July 16th, 2004, 12:48 am

Just popping in to point out another bubble referenence (and a color one). In CoS, Ron was having trouble with his broken wand again -- "large purple bubbles were blossoming out of end, and he wasn't much interested in anything else."

edina_monsoon

July 16th, 2004, 5:44 am

hey, there are a lot of pages to get through, and I'm not there yet, but I had to say this before I forgot, so I'm apologising if anyone else has brought it up...

The Order were protecting the weapon that was kept in the department of mysteries, and that weapon, that would give Voldemort more power than before we found out was the prophecy.

But, someone overheard Trelawney and Voldemort knew the prophecy last time, that's why he went after Harry. So why can't he know what he already knows?

It must be because of the end part which wasn't overheard - the bit about him marking his foe as equal. I think it was said in the book that Voldemort chose Harry because he thought Harry posed the greatest threat - or something.

But once again, why don't the order want Voldemort to hear the prophecy. Maybe because there is something in there that He will understand, something that we yet do not understand, and something that makes Neville very important.

So, about the gum wrappers, I think we have to ignore the idea that Alice is passing notes to Nev (surely Gran would have noticed, she would have at least inspected the first one). However, I think, along with many other cos-ers, there are some special secrets about Neville that we don't yet know and the gum wrappers are going to become important... JK doing what she does best!

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 6:50 am

Neville is going to bite the dust somewhere near the end maybe even facilitating LV demise. That way JKR doesn't have to kill Ron.
What!??! :wow:

But I've already started writing the Adventures of the Longbottom Witches! Neville has to survive and marry Ginny and become the headmaster of Hogwarts while raising 7, famously gorgeous red haired daughters. (The 7th is the seer, of course.) It's a cross between Harry Potter and the Seven Goddaughters and ..... Charlie's Angels.

Oh, yeah.

Then there's the Adventures of the Young Longbottom Witches for early readers. :agree: More Disney, less Charlie's Angels. :D

Basically SILK GOWNS purports that the gum or the wrappers are somehow tainted and that someone (they have a list of suspects, my own preference is Lucius Malfoy) is keeping them from recovering from their imbalanced mental state in this way. Interestingly they mention that if it has to do with the wrappers then that might explain the seeming incompetence of Neville and Healer Strout (both come into contact with wrappers and might have picked up some side effects from the poison).

I did a search for SILK GOWNS but I don't know if anyone possibly mentioned the poison theory somewhere in here but not related to this Theory Bay ship. Anyway, check out the page nonetheless. They give a lot of canon evidence for their ideas.HP4GU?
We've had some good discussions about Malfoy or someone else keeping the Longbottoms in their current condition as well as the possiblitily that they have recovered and are faking. All manner of poisons and potion ingredients have also been discovered and discussed. Moonstone and Hellebore were deeply researched. But I'm not sure we considered that Neville or the healer were being affected. Interesting.

But the vault #713 has my attention currently. :D

I wonder if Uncle Algie is going to come into all this somewhere? :huh:

FredWeasleyJr

July 16th, 2004, 7:14 am

first of all id like everyone to know this is my last post as a first year haha so neways

i think the gum will have a big part in the other two books nevilles parents will come around long enough to give important information to the Order and something with the gum will be key

not quite sure wat is goin on wit the gum but there has to be something big

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 7:55 am

:welcome: Hi Furry!

I'd do it myself but... :sigh: my computer won't let me see the graphics at all. Have you tried a different browswer? I know some folks have trouble with Netscape and AOL browsers. I use mozilla with no difficulty. Anyone using IExplorer should be careful to update all the critical patches. :agree:
I think it's also possible to use .co.uk or somesuch instead of .com.

Also... did you read that article about Jo taking a stand for the hospital patients who had cages around their beds? Sound like anything we've been theorizing? No. Sounds interesting. And yes, it does! :agree:

Oh! and, obliviate, mugglenet.com has a list of many of the interviews Rowling has given. That'll save you the trouble of searching for them. Good luck!That's good to know. I've been using quick quills, but they seem to be migrating and the searches haven't been very satisfying lately.

first of all id like everyone to know this is my last post as a first year haha so neways

i think the gum will have a big part in the other two books nevilles parents will come around long enough to give important information to the Order and something with the gum will be key

not quite sure wat is goin on wit the gum but there has to be something big
Congratulations on becoming a second year. Please go back and reread the rule about spelling. Thanks! :)

Elf

July 16th, 2004, 9:04 am

Please forgive me if I am merely repeating ideas, but this is a very long thread!

This evening it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps someone is poisoning Alice Longbottom's bubble gum to prevent her recovery and I see that there are people in this thread who had the same idea.

So who gives Alice the gum? I suppose it could be anyone considering Broderick Bode was stangled by a Devil's Snare plant given mysteriously to him as a gift in the very same ward at St. Mungo's.

I think it is interesting that the Healer, Miriam Strout was suspended for overlooking the dangers of the plant. Could it be that the gum is being sent to Alice Longbottom anonymously, just like the plant and that Miriam Strout overlooked that as well, passing it off as an innocent treat that a friend sends for Alice? Maybe she assumes Neville is sending the gum for his mother.

I do think it is significant in some way as well that Lucius Malfoy makes large donations to St. Mungo's. Lucius always uses money to infiltrate places where he wants to influence someone. He does this at the Ministry of Magic too. Perhaps he is seeing to it that the Longbottoms do not recover.

If this is the case, then we need to ask why anyone would care whether or not the Longbottoms gain their memories and sanity back. To me this insinuates that they know something that the supporters of Voldemort do not want them to reveal. The fact that they were both Aurors and members of the OotP would make it likely that they know secrets of some sort. What they could possibly know that would be of importance I'm not sure, but I think this is all more than coincidence. It fits too well.

It is imoprtant to note here that recovery is actually a possibility. Miriam Strout tells the kids that "with intensive remedial potions and charms, and a bit of luck, we can produce some improvements." Now, I have my doubts as to whether or not Lockheart will resurface as an important character. Rather, I think that he was reintroduced in OotP to inform us that even one who has had severe spell damage may recover, because we are shown that he is regaining some of his memory back.

Kookiemon

July 16th, 2004, 1:25 pm

This evening it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps someone is poisoning Alice Longbottom's bubble gum to prevent her recovery and I see that there are people in this thread who had the same idea.This is something that I have pondered myself. Having given this further thought, I have another possibility which I do not think has been posted yet.

So who gives Alice the gum? I suppose it could be anyone considering Broderick Bode was stangled by a Devil's Snare plant given mysteriously to him as a gift in the very same ward at St. Mungo's.As far as who may giving the gum to the Longbottoms, I do not know; but it is highly likely someone that has no good intentions. I think it is interesting to note that the books, so far, suggest that Alice is the only one of the two actually chewing them.

I think it is interesting that the Healer, Miriam Strout was suspended for overlooking the dangers of the plant. Could it be that the gum is being sent to Alice Longbottom anonymously, just like the plant and that Miriam Strout overlooked that as well, passing it off as an innocent treat that a friend sends for Alice? Maybe she assumes Neville is sending the gum for his mother.Another good observation. Perhaps Miriam Strout is in cahoots with Lord Voldemort.

It is imoprtant to note here that recovery is actually a possibility. Miriam Strout tells the kids that "with intensive remedial potions and charms, and a bit of luck, we can produce some improvements." Now, I have my doubts as to whether or not Lockheart will resurface as an important character. Rather, I think that he was reintroduced in OotP to inform us that even one who has had severe spell damage may recover, because we are shown that he is regaining some of his memory back.Now on to the possibility. We know that Neville Longbottom was a late-bloomer, magically that is. He did not start showing any magical-abilities until the age of eight when his great granduncle dropped him out a window; which coincidently enough is sort of how I found out I wasn't magical when I fell down a flight of stairs and split my head open. :) Anyways, I was thinking that Neville's late entry into the magical kingdom may have been due to him using the gum, which is perhaps enchanted to inhibit magic. Perhaps he stopped using the gum around eight, which would explain the appearance of his magical abilities.

grianne

July 16th, 2004, 3:13 pm

Check out the link that I posted a few posts before yours, it has a lot of interesting theories on this topic: http://www.geocities.com/rsfjenny/HP/silkgowns.html

This evening it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps someone is poisoning Alice Longbottom's bubble gum to prevent her recovery and I see that there are people in this thread who had the same idea.

So who gives Alice the gum? I suppose it could be anyone considering Broderick Bode was stangled by a Devil's Snare plant given mysteriously to him as a gift in the very same ward at St. Mungo's.

I think it is interesting that the Healer, Miriam Strout was suspended for overlooking the dangers of the plant. Could it be that the gum is being sent to Alice Longbottom anonymously, just like the plant and that Miriam Strout overlooked that as well, passing it off as an innocent treat that a friend sends for Alice? Maybe she assumes Neville is sending the gum for his mother.

I do think it is significant in some way as well that Lucius Malfoy makes large donations to St. Mungo's. Lucius always uses money to infiltrate places where he wants to influence someone. He does this at the Ministry of Magic too. Perhaps he is seeing to it that the Longbottoms do not recover.

If this is the case, then we need to ask why anyone would care whether or not the Longbottoms gain their memories and sanity back. To me this insinuates that they know something that the supporters of Voldemort do not want them to reveal. The fact that they were both Aurors and members of the OotP would make it likely that they know secrets of some sort. What they could possibly know that would be of importance I'm not sure, but I think this is all more than coincidence. It fits too well.

It is imoprtant to note here that recovery is actually a possibility. Miriam Strout tells the kids that "with intensive remedial potions and charms, and a bit of luck, we can produce some improvements." Now, I have my doubts as to whether or not Lockheart will resurface as an important character. Rather, I think that he was reintroduced in OotP to inform us that even one who has had severe spell damage may recover, because we are shown that he is regaining some of his memory back.

GryffindorSeeker

July 16th, 2004, 3:28 pm

I wonder if Uncle Algie is going to come into all this somewhere? :huh:
I hope he will! He's had my attention for a while now. I'm not sure if he was innocently trying to force magic out of Neville, or if he was trying to kill him. He dropped Neville out of a window, he pushed him off of a pier, ect. :huh: That doesn't exactly sound too innocent, does it?

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 4:28 pm

But Uncle Algie also gave Neville Trevor and his Mimbulus Mimbletonia. :agree: And that pier, if I remember correctly, was plotted on the same line as the exploding toilets throughout London.

I should go back to the plumbing for awhile. There's definitely something going on Beneath the Surface. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28545)

Dr Hesper

July 16th, 2004, 9:31 pm

I am also annoyed at not being allowed to read the English version in English. I fear I am losing something intangible.Can we not order UK versions of the book from overseas? I bet one of our friends here from the UK could help ya with this. I wonder if we can get UK copies from Ebay?
As far as we know, nothing anymore. Voldemort tried to break into it the same day Hagrid took the stone out of it.I also assumed that either Voldemort or the death eaters had broken into the vault. But was this proven conclusively? I can't remember, but does the book tell us who actually broke into the vault?A-hah - Alice Longbottom is trying to tell Neville that Vault 713 is filled with gumwrappers - it must be something truly valuable, like a complete collection of all the Bazooka Joe cartoons ever used!aaagh! More sticky references! (Wonder what Bazooka Joe is an anagram of)? :rotfl:
I think that Alice is starting to recover, and this is some way she's trying to communicate with Neville.I think you are right. Alice probably is recovering and this is probably why the scene was included. It wouldnt surprise me to read more about the Longbottoms in book 6. It also wouldnt surprise me to see an attempt made on their lives (before they can let the cat out of the bag).
Also... did you read that article about Jo taking a stand for the hospital patients who had cages around their beds?I didnt see that. Was she passing out gum? Bazooka Joe or Droobles? :evil:
I hope he will! He's (Algie) had my attention for a while now. I'm not sure if he was innocently trying to force magic out of Neville, or if he was trying to kill him. He dropped Neville out of a window, he pushed him off of a pier, ect. That doesn't exactly sound too innocent, does it?No, it doesn't! This was one thing that led me to suspect that both Algie and Neville's Gram might be death eaters. (Also her really wicked hat). My grandfather's name was "Algie". It's an old English name...I think it's a nickname for 'Algenon" (sic?). I dont know if this is a clue though. Uncle Algie is the one who gave Neville the plant. Is this a good thing? :eyebrows:

furryfreakferret

July 16th, 2004, 9:32 pm

Oh, I definatly think Algie will pop his head in eventually. He's gotten quite a lot of mention and we all know Jo enjoys giving us a glimpse at future major characters in preceeding books. Like she did with the Lovegoods. Amos Diggory (or Arthur, I can't quite remember which) mentioned them in the Portkey chapter of GoF. I happen to agree with GryffindorSeeker, however; he doesn't seem to be exactly a... sociable guy. Plus, we've had our doubts on Trevor and the Mimbulus mimbletonia, haven't we? I think I've convinced myself the latter's all right, perhaps a bit gruesome to the sight, but esentially good-natured. Trevor, however.... What's up with him, anyway? Why does he keep running away? And, like Galadriel Waters has pointed out, Hagrid's chicken coop is a little too close for my comfort. For those who don't know it, according to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, Basilisks are hatched from a chicken's egg placed beneath a toad.

By the way, whiz, I've been thinking about it. You know how you were comparing Harry to a bomb ready to explode earlier? I think there may be something to that. Very nice catch. What if Harry's has to blow Voldemort up to fulfill the prophecy? Of course, the bombs are usually destoryed in the this process.... :(

Oh! and here's that article I mentioned eariler which reminded me of our thread.

Caged Beds Go after Rowling Plea

Reacting to criticism from Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling and human rights groups, the Czech government today ordered the removal of caged beds from psychiatric facilities.

The minister ordered that all caged beds be removed immediately, and beds with nets by the end of the year,” Aneta Kupkova, a Health Ministry spokeswoman, said in Prague.

The move came a day after President Vaclav Klaus received a letter from Rowling, author of the bestselling Harry Potter series of children’s books, protesting the practice in the Czech Republic.

Critics have said the beds, fitted with cages or nets to contain difficult patients, are barbaric.

Amnesty International and the Council of Europe have protested repeatedly against their use, and Rowling’s letter was the final straw prompting Health Care Minister Josef Kubinyi to act, Kupkova said.

Of a total of 9,657 beds in Czech psychiatric facilities, about 100 have nets and only 20 have bars, she said.

Anyway, I'll catch you lot later. My fanfic beckons me beyond this world.

Elf

July 16th, 2004, 9:34 pm

Thanks for the link grianne! Very interesting and thorough!

Here's an additional idea that I posted in the occlumency/legilimency thread....

Let's assume that the gum is preventing Alice's recovery (and perhaps Frank's as well) and that the gum is eventually removed from the situation.

If Alice becomes somewhat lucid, but still can't remember everything, they could use Legilimency to discover what secret she was being prevented from revealing. This may seem like quite a jump to make in a theory, but consider this...

The Healer Miriam Strout tells the kids that "with intensive remedial potions and charms, and a bit of luck, we can produce some improvements." What strikes me as interesting about this is that "remedial potions" is the same phrase Harry is told to use as a cover up for his Occlumency lessons with Snape. This is mentioned in the very next chapter in fact.

Perhaps this is a clue to what will happen if the gum is removed and Alice does begin to recover.

whizbang121

July 17th, 2004, 4:47 am

The "remedial potions" phrase is suddenly interesting.

furryfreakferret

July 17th, 2004, 5:25 am

We talked about it before, remember? We were discussing the possibility of it having a double meaning and how Healer Strout's "remedial potions and charms" may mean substandard like Snape considers Harry's potions. I don't quite think I follow what Elf is suggesting, however. Care to clarify? :)

Elf

July 17th, 2004, 6:15 am

original post by furryfreakferret
I don't quite think I follow what Elf is suggesting, however. Care to clarify?

Okay, let me see if I can word this differently then. (It's late and my brain is fuzzy!)

All I'm suggesting is that if the theory about the poisoned gum is true and Alice stops eating it because this is discovered, she would probably begin to recover, however she might never regain her entire memory.

Assuming the person who gave her the gum was trying to prevent her from divulging a secret of some sort, I wondered if Legilimency could be instrumental in extracting that secret from her mind.

I figured that perhaps the phrase "remedial potions" used by Miriam Strout was simply a verbal clue that JKR planted in order to hint that Legilimency might have a connection, as "remedial potions" is also the phrase Harry used as an excuse for his Occlumency/Legilimency lessons with Snape.

Not sure if that is any clearer, because I think I may have worded it better the first time, but hopefully that helps.

Ellen

July 17th, 2004, 6:32 pm

Another possibility (I still haven't read all of this discussion, so here's hoping it hasn't been brought up before).

Bella and friends attacked and tortured the Longbottoms because they believed the Longbottoms knew something about Voldemort's whereabouts.

We're never told if the LeStranges were right.

It's possible the Longbottoms had a secret, one it would be dangerous to let people like Bellatrix know, but it wasn't the information the LeStranges were looking for.

Harry is able to see and enter Grimmauld Place because he is given a small piece of paper with information written on it by DD, the Order's secret keeper.

What if the wrappers are the only paper Alice can get and this is some attempt to do the same thing?

The problem being -

1. She'd only need to do it once (although, given her mental state, Alice may only remember this is something she needs to tell Neville, without remembering why or even that she's done it before).

2. There's nothing written on the paper. Alice can get wrappers but nothing to write with? If nothing else, couldn't she prick her finger? Not that writing with blood isn't kind of gross.

Shauna

July 17th, 2004, 6:52 pm

Just in case anyone is confused, the word remedial has two meanings:

supplying a remedy
intended to correct or improve deficient skills in a specific subject

I think it is very interesting that she would say "remedial potions" when meaning the first definition, as the word "remedial" is much more commonly used the second way.

I don't think the connection is so much Occlumency/Legilimency in itself, but the fact that Snape's "lessons" were really making it worse for Harry, just as Healer Strout's potions are making the Longbottoms worse (f in fact it is true).

Really nice powers of observation, Elf!

Shauna

furryfreakferret

July 17th, 2004, 7:35 pm

I get it now! Thanks, Elf! So you think someone might attempt to pry the Longbottom's secret from them using Legimency? It's an interesting thought, but... I fear they might be some nasty side effects. When Voldemort broke through the Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins, it destoryed her completely. While I don't believe in the least that the Longbottoms condition is the work of a Memory Charm (and neither do I believe Voldie would have been nice enough to use Legimency in this case), their memories are impared somewhat in the way so perhaps repercussions could be similar. Plus, just like Shauna (good observation, by the way) mentioned, Harry's "remedial potions" lessons were making him worse. The Longbottoms minds are bad enough as they are now, they don't need to have them ransacked. However, it's another idea we'll have to make sure no Death Eaters ever get a hold of.

SquibOnline

July 17th, 2004, 8:31 pm

Well Drooble’s best blowing gum is an anagram for "Gold bribe below St Mungo’s"

fanof_hp

July 17th, 2004, 10:15 pm

Wow, this is a long thread. I like everyone's thoughs and ideas. But, could it be just another "filler" that JKR like to throw in the books? I know I like to read between the lines too, and I'm not suggesting that there is no merit to all of your thoughts and theories at all. I love them!

In searching JKR's site, I recall reading that she had recently quit smoking, and chews a lot of gum. Perhaps she was in the process of quiting while writing OOTP, and decided to give Alice bit of an obsession. Just a though.

whizbang121

July 17th, 2004, 10:36 pm

:whistle: weaves a basket :elaugh:

:D

GryffindorSeeker

July 18th, 2004, 1:16 am

If Alice becomes somewhat lucid, but still can't remember everything, they could use Legilimency to discover what secret she was being prevented from revealing. This may seem like quite a jump to make in a theory, but consider this...

The Healer Miriam Strout tells the kids that "with intensive remedial potions and charms, and a bit of luck, we can produce some improvements." What strikes me as interesting about this is that "remedial potions" is the same phrase Harry is told to use as a cover up for his Occlumency lessons with Snape. This is mentioned in the very next chapter in fact.

Now we're going into this way of thinking, aren't we. :lol: Very good observations at that! That's something I couldn't have caught. Fanof_hp, that might be true, but we have to have something to try and figure out until we get more stuff to work with, or until we get the next book... if it ever gets finished. :whistle:

ComicBookWorm

July 18th, 2004, 1:35 am

I rather like the idea of a cyrptogram that Luna helps Neville figure out. She's good at puzzles, and I would hope she serves another purpose besides amusing us.

As much fun as anagrams are, I have decided not only has it been done, but it is nearly impossible to translate into other languages. And by the time we got to the scene with the Longbottoms, JKR was well aware of how many languages the books are translated into. It is one thing to translate I am Lord Voldemort into many languages, using the middle name as fudge space to accomodate linguistic changes, and it is another to translate "Gold bride beneath St. Mungos" into something approximating Droobles Best Blowing Gum. Unless they change the gum name completely, and the gum name has been long established. Besides why would the bribe be beneath St. Mungos, why not at or in or for St. Mungos.

The remedial potions idea is intriguing considering the fact that Snape certainly did seem to make matters worse. Although, I am going to steadfastly refuse to believe Snape is evil, because JKR is trying so hard to make us dislike him. I don't like him, but I think that we are having some JKR misdirection in this case.

GryffindorSeeker

July 18th, 2004, 1:41 am

Gum beneath your shoe isn't good, but gum beneath a hospital? Maybe the gold bribe is actually gold wrapped gum.... Where did I come up with that one? :scared:

Elf

July 18th, 2004, 3:12 am

Hey, I just posted this in another thread and it may be relevant here.

When the kids are in the permanent spell damage ward, they see a woman named Agnes whom Harry describes as having a head that is entirely covered in fur. When the Healer Miriam Strout gives Agnes her Christmas presents, she "gave several loud barks."

What struck me about this is that the name Agnes can mean a few different things: pure, chaste, or lamb. Sounds a little bit like the old adage "a wolf in sheeps clothing" doesn't it? Only in this case the name Agnes is the clothing or disguise.

Might be just coincidence, but it seemed a little fishy to me, especially seeing as JKR usually knows the meanings of the names she gives her characters.

Perhaps Agnes the barking lady is a spy who is conveniently in the same ward as the Longbottoms!

ComicBookWorm

July 18th, 2004, 3:17 am

Kookiemon

July 18th, 2004, 9:18 pm

When Harry, Ron and Hermione meet Neville and Neville's grandmother at St. Mungo's Hospital, Neville's grandmother mentions that Frank and Alice were both Aurors. Yet in previous mentionings, only Frank Longbottom has been acknowledged to have been an Auror; those two mentionings take place in The Goblet of Fire.

The first mentioning occurs when Harry uses Dumbledore's pensieve and witnesses the trial of four Death Eaters.The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror - Frank Longbottom - and subjecting him to the Cruciatus CurseYour are further accused," bellowed Mr. Crouch, "of using the Cruciatus Curse on Frank Longbottom's wife"The second mentioning occurs soon after Dumbledore catches Harry Potter using his pensieve."His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information..."Now forgetting to state that Alice Longbottom was an Auror may have been an oversight by Mr. Crouch and Dumbledore, or JK Rowling; but I doubt it. I think that mentioning Alice Longbottom was an Auror was an oversight by the person posing as Neville's grandmother.

We know there are several ways to impersonate other people; Metamorphmagus, Polyjuice Potion, and Transfiguration. I think that the person posing as Neville's grandmother is poisoning the Longbottom's to make sure they do not recover.

GabrielTurner

July 19th, 2004, 1:46 am

Sorry if I should have put this somewhere else. I checked but found nothing pertaining wholly to the case of the mysterious gum wrappers. Anyway....

So we all know that Christmas of book 5, Neville recieved a gum wrapper from his mother in the closed ward. But Neville's gran says, "she must have given [him] enough of them to paper [his] bedroom." So what's with all the gum wrappers? Why so many?

First, on a cheerful note, it seems Dumbledore was wrong and Mrs. Longbottom at least does recognize her son. :D Anyway, my subject as under Educational Decree something or other that's all I'm allowed to discuss. Someone somewhere (sorry can't remember who or where; maybe Neville's parents, Malfoy, and Neville's memory??) brought up the fact that if the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort was that they might know more. How to defeat him perhaps? This would be a good reason for Bellatrix and company to want them out of the way. So what if the gum wrappers are supposed to be some sort of clue to Neville? Something he's missing while being ashamed, or guilty, or angry, or something else he shouldn't be?

I was giving this some thought this morning and thought I'd see if any of you guys were thinking along similar lines. So what do we know about the gum wrappers? We know Neville has lots of them so his mother probably gave him one per visit. We also know that they were for Drooble's Best Blowing Gum and were always empty. Given Rowling's style I'm almost positive all of this has a signifigance other than to gain sympathy for Neville; she did that in GoF VERY well already. Poor Nev. :( So.... like some popsicle sticks have jokes or little known facts, could the gum wrappers have something similar? Something that when looked at right spells out the secret to Voldemort's dowfall? Or a picture with a similar purpose? Wasn't there some trick with some number dollar bill that if you folded it right you could make it look like the Towers collapsing on 9/11? Or could Mrs. Longbottom maybe be saying that Drooble knows how to do it? There are so many possibilties. Maybe Nev's mum feels uncomfortable talking in front of his gran and it's some kind of form of communication that only she and her son can comprehend? I don't know. What do you all think? Any chances? :angry: We have to wait another couple of years to find out now. :sigh: We just can't win.

You are very cool! I like how you think a lot. I could definetly see J.K. using something as insignificant as that. And to tell the truth, I think that she might use something like that to flip Harry's life around. I'm sure Harry has thought about life as a normal person. Maybe Neville will pop outta no where and defeat Voldemort. Thus giving him all the glory and putting Harry happily on the back burner! But I can't deny, Harry has exceptional talent. I don't see how Rowling would do it. Know her though she'd probably pull it out of someone's left ear leaving us screaming profanities at her genius simplicity that none of us caught. :upset:

Voldie_Mort

July 19th, 2004, 1:57 am

Maybe Mrs Longbottom subconsciuosly knew she forgot to re-paper Neville's room. So-- she's giving him the material to do it with :lol:

Masterfroggy

July 19th, 2004, 2:03 am

"Yes, they were talking about Neville’s parents," said Dumbledore. "His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard."
"So they're dead?" said Harry quietly.
"No," said Dumbledore, his voice full of a bitterness Harry had never heard there before. "They are insane. They are both in St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. I believe Neville visits them, with his grandmother, during the holidays. They do not recognize him."
Harry sat there, horror-struck. He had never known... never, in four years, bothered to find out...
"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledore. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe. Those attacks caused a wave of fury such as I have never known. The Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who had done it. Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their condition - none too reliable."

Bellatrix and young Barty Crouch tortured the Longbottoms to find out what they knew about the whereabouts of the Dark Lord, all the death Eaters knew was the Dark lord was missing, and they assumed that the Ministry would know, The Longbottoms did not know where Lord Voldemort was, nor is there any evidence to suggest that they knew how to defeat him, were they even aware that their baby son, could possible be the “one” with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, after all he was one of the two boys born at the end of the seventh month. the death Eaters were leaderless, (otherwise Malfoy would have been there doing the questioning, unless he had already “surrendered” to the Aurors)

I have just noticed, that the Longbottoms did give evidence, but for some reason it was not believed, what did they say, and where is it written down are the gum wrappers somehow linked to the what they said, could that be what she is trying to tell her son, to look for the paperwork that surround the case, was the case wrapped up to early, or is she saying that the important clues are hidden in plain sight, but like a sweet wrapper, not really looked at, the interest being in the sweet itself

whizbang121

July 19th, 2004, 2:44 am

We know there are several ways to impersonate other people; Metamorphmagus, Polyjuice Potion, and an as yet unmentioned wand incantation. I think that the person posing as Neville's grandmother is poisoning the Longbottom's to make sure they do not recover.I never like Neville's Gran. I'm not too sure about this theory, but just to add more fuel to the fire, Gran's hat has a vulture on it. What is a vulture? A scavenger, a death eater.
I have just noticed, that the Longbottoms did give evidence, but for some reason it was not believed, what did they say, and where is it written down are the gum wrappers somehow linked to the what they said, could that be what she is trying to tell her son, to look for the paperwork that surround the case, was the case wrapped up to early, or is she saying that the important clues are hidden in plain sight, but like a sweet wrapper, not really looked at, the interest being in the sweet itself
. Very interesting approach. Did you see on JKR site where the gum wrappers under the keyboard form the numbers 713? This was the number of the vault that Hagrid took the Stone from. :agree: Later that same day, the vault was broken into.

Voldie_Mort

July 19th, 2004, 2:56 am

I never like Neville's Gran. I'm not too sure about this theory, but just to add more fuel to the fire, Gran's hat has a vulture on it. What is a vulture? A scavenger, a death eater.

I got it!! I think I really got it!!!!

Okay, as whizbang121 has said, she's part of voldemort (DE or not) but still apart of it!!

Here it goes:

Ol' Gran, gives the Longbottoms the gum!! So much of it! And it's dusted some how...maybe with potions! And there's the hint in PoA, Neville put's his Gran's clothing on Snape - she's good at potions! And the only communication Neville's mum can give him, is the gum wrappers! The stuff Granny gives them! She's keeping them sick!

(PS, sorry if this already came up, I don't read too many other posts. I just post.)

CaseyAlthea

July 19th, 2004, 3:03 am

Oh no, no! Neville's Gran is just a crotchety old lady, not the scary cannibal witch in the gingerbread house who wants to destroy Hansel and Gretel with candy!

ComicBookWorm

July 19th, 2004, 3:15 am

Oh no, no! Neville's Gran is just a crotchety old lady, not the scary cannibal witch in the gingerbread house who wants to destroy Hansel and Gretel with candy!
I've got to agree, other than outright DEs most people that JKR paints in a bad light are not really bad (except for Umbridge who was horrible).

whizbang121

July 19th, 2004, 4:17 am

:rotfl: Sorry Voldie_Mort. That's exactly the response I got when I said I didn't trust Gran. You should have been here when I posted about 10 reasons Molly Weasley is a DE. :lol: They nearly lynched me. :scared: Oh well. I think you're on to something. :agree:

ComicBookWorm

July 19th, 2004, 4:27 am

Dedalus Diggle

July 19th, 2004, 6:57 am

I never like Neville's Gran. I'm not too sure about this theory, but just to add more fuel to the fire, Gran's hat has a vulture on it. What is a vulture? A scavenger, a death eater.

Wrong - a vulture cleans up after death, it is not (usually) an agent of death as the DEs are supposed to be. Perhaps that indicates that she will be importabnt in the mending after the war.

Elf

July 19th, 2004, 7:25 am

Hmmmm, I still think that you may be onto something with this vulture thing. A vulture does eat dead things, so the phrase "death eater" would be a wordplay that could point to this.
Very interesting! Why would JKR choose to put a vulture on her hat? I have always thought of Neville's Gran as being crusty & stern, but well-meaning, but perhaps this is the impression we are supposed to get.

whizbang121

July 19th, 2004, 2:40 pm

Fair to say, that someone mentioned a while back that the ancient egyptians revered vultures as good parents. But why call Voldemort's minions Death Eaters? JKR is not callous with words.

GryffindorSeeker

July 19th, 2004, 4:04 pm

I've always thought of Death Eaters as Eaters of Death. I've associated "Death Eaters" with Voldemort's dream of being immortal. Of course, it could simply be the fact that they kill.

Dedalus Diggle

July 19th, 2004, 4:21 pm

Fair to say, that someone mentioned a while back that the ancient egyptians revered vultures as good parents. But why call Voldemort's minions Death Eaters? JKR is not callous with words.
Do you mean 'callous' or 'careless'? She can be quite 'callous' in the sense of being blunt and unsentimental, as need be.

I've wondered exactly what the meaning behind the term 'Death Eater' is since I read it. Usually a 'something-eater' means a person who consumes that something, in some sense, whether it is a lotus-eater or a fire-eater. In what sense do the Death Eaters 'consume' death? Do the Dark Marks in some way work some sort of charm to protect Voldie from death? If the Death Eaters were eliminated, would Voldemort lose some or all of his protections from death?

Kazza

July 19th, 2004, 4:29 pm

Great theory but I'm feeling a bit sceptical and think that maybe Jo just put gum wrappers in there because (as she says on her website) she chews a hell of a lot of it. www.jkrowling.com just look at her desk!!!
I reckon that is the only significance of gum wrappers.

Dr Hesper

July 20th, 2004, 3:26 am

I never like Neville's Gran. I'm not too sure about this theory, but just to add more fuel to the fire, Gran's hat has a vulture on it. What is a vulture? A scavenger, a death eater.*Laughing* Where were you “regulars” a month or so ago? I mentioned this very same theory and no one wanted to give it any credence. I’ve always felt that Neville’s Gram might possibly be a death eater. There are some questions about Trevor too. I’m not too sure about Neville’s aunts and uncles either and it wouldn’t surprise me the least to find that one of them set Alice and Frank up to be captured and tortured. :)

I've got to agree, other than outright DEs most people that JKR paints in a bad light are not really bad (except for Umbridge who was horrible).Really? Like who? Who has JKR painted in a bad light that turned out to be a good guy? Pettigrew? The jury is still out on that guy. Snape? We aren’t sure about him either and there are a number of threads discussing his motives. Fudge? Crouch? All have less than desirable traits. Lucius and Draco Malfoy? Is there really any question about their loyalties? Trixie Lestrange? Would you go to a cook-out with her? :rotfl:

No, I think that JKR’s been pretty reliable so far in describing the people we have read about. Actually it’s the so-called “good guys” that we had better keep an eye on. Whiz has mentioned Molly Weasley. I wondered about Ludo Bagman. I wonder about Mundungus Fletcher and Percy Weasley. :)

Wrong - a vulture cleans up after death, it is not (usually) an agent of death as the DEs are supposed to be. Perhaps that indicates that she will be importabnt in the mending after the war.Um…I think the idea is that Vultures eat dead things. :blush: Hence the imagery of ‘Death Eater’. At least that’s what I meant when I posed the hypothesis that Gram might be a Death Eater (or at least a supporter of Death Eaters). Actually, she isn’t the only person to show her loyalties by wearing a weird hat. Luna Lovegood wore a ‘lion hat’ that roared to show her support for Griffindor during a sporting event. So a pattern has definitely been established by JKR. It certainly got my attention when Gram came walking out of the ward wearing that Vulture hat. Wow, since we have seen that objects like hats can be animated, think how shocked the kids would have been if that vulture hat would have hopped off of Grams head and pecked their eyes out!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: I'd say that would have pretty much let the cat out of the bag eh?

Fair to say, that someone mentioned a while back that the ancient egyptians revered vultures as good parents. But why call Voldemort's minions Death Eaters? JKR is not callous with words.This is an excellent question. What is the significance of the term ‘Death Eater’? It suggests that death can be devoured and this implies (I think) a sort of immortality. Maybe that has always been the group’s goals? :shrug:

Also, while I think someone came up with a very interesting idea about an ancient Egyptian scarab being a part of this whole mystery, (one I think well worth exploring), I would also point out that these stories have not dealt with Ancient Egyptian culture or customs (so far). It’s more of an English culture that she has described and so I’m not sure I would agree with the implication that we should view the vulture imagery as being symbolic of good parenting.

whizbang121

July 20th, 2004, 3:48 am

*Laughing* Where were you “regulars” a month or so ago? I mentioned this very same theory and no one wanted to give it any credence. :whistle: We were, um ............. hiding. I mean we were um..... polishing trophies?

Also, while I think someone came up with a very interesting idea about an ancient Egyptian scarab being a part of this whole mystery, (one I think well worth exploring), I would also point out that these stories have not dealt with Ancient Egyptian culture or customs (so far). It’s more of an English culture that she has described and so I’m not sure I would agree with the implication that we should view the vulture imagery as being symbolic of good parenting.Honestly, though, there are recognisable elements. Say the name of the god, P'tah, for example. :eyebrows: The thread is here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20899&highlight=egyptian)

I've been thinking about the gum and vault number 713 hinted at on Rowlings website. The Philosopher's Stone was in vault nunber 713. On her website, Rowling also had an early draft from PS/SS that had Harry telling Ron and Hermione that the Stone had been in his parents' vault.

Is it possible that Dumbledore, fearing for both boys and not knowing which was the prophesied one, administered the elixor to both of them? Are Harry and Neville both immortal? At least temporarily? (Temporarily immortal. :rotfl: Whatever that means.)

And while I don't trust Neville's gran, I kinda like Uncle Algie. :agree:

Dedalus Diggle

July 20th, 2004, 3:53 am

Um…I think the idea is that Vultures eat dead things. :blush: Hence the imagery of ‘Death Eater’.

Guess what - I eat dead things too, and I'll bet you do too. In fact the only things I eat alive are sprouts. Almost every carnivore scavenges when it can - vultures just happen to be better at it than most, enough so that they rarely execute the animals they are to eat. This hardly paints them as sinister.

Dr Hesper

July 20th, 2004, 4:22 am

And while I don't trust Neville's gran, I kinda like Uncle Algie.I like the name. It was my grandfather’s name. I think its an old Celtic or old English name. Algie is a strange character too. Isnt it a bit odd that he was dangling Neville outside a window when he was little? Is he a Michael Jackson devotee? :rotfl:

Guess what - I eat dead things too, and I'll bet you do too. In fact the only things I eat alive are sprouts. Almost every carnivore scavenges when it can - vultures just happen to be better at it than most, enough so that they rarely execute the animals they are to eat. This hardly paints them as sinister.Wow, what a clever boy you are! Gimmee a break. You know perfectly well what I meant when I wrote of the imagery of the vulture. While you may want to spend time defending the rights of the poor misunderstood vulture and how they are mislabeled, I suspect that most realize that vultures eat animals that are already dead (while most carnivores actually kill their prey). “Eating dead” vs “Killing”. “Eating dead…Death Eaters”.

If you have a better theory, then please enlighten us. It’s much better than disrespectful little posts that reveal little more than to show how clever you can be. What do you think the term “Death Eaters” refer to? Normal everyday run of the mill non-vegetarians? Somehow I think the imagery means something a bit different.

Voldie_Mort

July 20th, 2004, 4:42 am

I do think that the allusion to a vulture as a death eater is interesting however.

I still think Neville's Ol' Gran MAY be bad. Afterall, (I just thought of this) she was at the hospital at the time whats-his-face got the Devil's Snare...

Dedalus Diggle

July 20th, 2004, 5:08 am

Wow, what a clever boy you are! Gimmee a break. You know perfectly well what I meant when I wrote of the imagery of the vulture. While you may want to spend time defending the rights of the poor misunderstood vulture and how they are mislabeled, I suspect that most realize that vultures eat animals that are already dead (while most carnivores actually kill their prey). “Eating dead” vs “Killing”. “Eating dead…Death Eaters”.

If you have a better theory, then please enlighten us. It’s much better than disrespectful little posts that reveal little more than to show how clever you can be. What do you think the term “Death Eaters” refer to? Normal everyday run of the mill non-vegetarians? Somehow I think the imagery means something a bit different.
I just don't think that the imagery runs quite that simplistically in JKR's works. The spiders, for instance, are neither bad nor good; they are Hagrid's friends but they will eat any other prey that comes in their reach. The ghosts, too, are not mere scarers or obsessive haunters, but have more or less complex existences.

'Eating death' does not mean the same thing as 'eating dead' and I am not merely trying to be clever in keeping this distinction. I have already suggested the possibility that the death eaters in some Potterverse way consume their masters death - essentially they have sold their souls. I think the ghoulish vulture imagery is more likely to be turned on its head in JKR's world.

Jokey White

July 20th, 2004, 5:21 am

I did a search but, I did not see this theory posted:

I don't know what kind of gum wrappers they use in the UK but, Juicy Fruit wrappers (at least old school ones) were wrapped in a kind of foil. Also, as I recall, from Harry's private lessons from Snape, the memory's that Snape removed from his head and put into the pensieve were like silver flakes or strands or something like that.

I know this is a stretch, but what if the gum wrappers that Neville's mum is giving to him is somehow imbued with her memories. Seeing how a memory, as per Harry's experience with Snape, is silver coloured, it should blend in perfectly with a foil-type wrapper.

How would she be extracting these memories in the first place? Maybe she has a wand hidden somewhere, maybe someone in the hospital is helping her or maybe it is the same way everything else is tied together - Dumbledore. For a wizard of Dumbledore's power, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to go to St. Mungo's from time to time to help her extract a memory and put it on an inconspicuous gum wrapper.

Of course, this theory goes straight to the dumper if the gum wrapper is like Bazooka or Bubbalicious (waxy paper like things).

ComicBookWorm

July 20th, 2004, 6:09 am

Really? Like who? Who has JKR painted in a bad light that turned out to be a good guy? Pettigrew? The jury is still out on that guy. Snape? We aren’t sure about him either and there are a number of threads discussing his motives. Fudge? Crouch? All have less than desirable traits. Lucius and Draco Malfoy? Is there really any question about their loyalties? Trixie Lestrange? Would you go to a cook-out with her? :rotfl:

How about Sirius Black as a bad guy. So far every time we've thought Snape was bad he wasn't (I know the jury is out on him). Even Hagrid was painted as shady in CoS so we wouldn't suspect Ginny and TR.

:whistle: We were, um ............. hiding. I mean we were um..... polishing trophies? Honestly, though, there are recognisable elements. Say the name of the god, P'tah, for example. :eyebrows: The thread is here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20899&highlight=egyptian)

I've been thinking about the gum and vault number 713 hinted at on Rowlings website. The Philosopher's Stone was in vault nunber 713. On her website, Rowling also had an early draft from PS/SS that had Harry telling Ron and Hermione that the Stone had been in his parents' vault.

Is it possible that Dumbledore, fearing for both boys and not knowing which was the prophesied one, administered the elixor to both of them? Are Harry and Neville both immortal? At least temporarily? (Temporarily immortal. :rotfl: Whatever that means.)

Whoa, I love it. That could actually explain things a whole lot better than a love shield that saved Harry.

Dr Hesper

July 20th, 2004, 7:39 am

I just don't think that the imagery runs quite that simplistically in JKR's works. The spiders, for instance, are neither bad nor good; they are Hagrid's friends but they will eat any other prey that comes in their reach. The ghosts, too, are not mere scarers or obsessive haunters, but have more or less complex existences.

'Eating death' does not mean the same thing as 'eating dead' and I am not merely trying to be clever in keeping this distinction. I have already suggested the possibility that the death eaters in some Potterverse way consume their masters death - essentially they have sold their souls. I think the ghoulish vulture imagery is more likely to be turned on its head in JKR's world. Sorry about that first bit. I’m having a rough night in these forums and am a bit ….on edge. :blush:
Imagery is interesting in these books. While I wouldn’t bet the house that Gram is a Death Eater….I think I am correct in saying that JKR has established a bit of a pattern with the headwear in a couple of instance. It might well be a red herring. But Gram’s hat and Luna Lovegood’s hat do suggest some sort of affiliation. I feel sure that you do see the imagery there. While eating death might not be the same as eating dead...it is close enough to qualify as legitimate imagery and JKR might have used it in that manner. :eyebrows:

Hagrid is an odd bird. We know that monsters that we often find dangerous and terrifying, he seems to think they are like little puppies or something. The blast-ended skrewts became dangerous. The hippogriff was dangerous. True, Malfoy disobeyed Hagrid and that was why he got hurt….the fact is that a hippogriff is a legendary dangerous creature not to be trifled with. The Ministry was right to be concerned (though they went too far imo). The spiders? I’ve not seen any friendly spiders. What agreement Hagrid may have with Aragog bviously does not extend to his friends and because of this…they are dangerous and scary. Even the centaurs are dangerous. Of all the creatures I have seen around Hagrid’s hut, I think the only two that haven’t been harmful to date were the flobberworms and the Thestrils. (And the jury is still out on both).

How about Sirius Black as a bad guy. So far every time we've thought Snape was bad he wasn't (I know the jury is out on him). Even Hagrid was painted as shady in CoS so we wouldn't suspect Ginny and TR.Perhaps Sirius could be one. But you m ust admit that there are precious few. And you are right in that we simply don’t know enough about Snape. I truly don’t think hes evil though. He has a very abrasive personality and appears to hate Hary, but he has always stepped in when he could to prevent the kids from truly being injured. Wearing black shouldn’t truly be considered to be a sign of evil either since a lot of good people wear black. I know good people who should take better care of their hair as well. In fact, when one studies the character, we are likely to find that the worst thing about him is his personality. His prior affiliation with Voldemort could mean a few things. Yes, it is symbolic of a bad guy, but we had already been told that he was trusted by Dumbledore. So I have never really considered him to be evil.

And I must have missed the implication that Hagrid was shady at all. His character was doomed to “appear” to be a good guy from the very beginning of the series when he stood up for Harry and rescued him from the Durselys. If there ever was a question of his loyaty, I immediately disregarded it. Hagrid has always appeared to be a friendly giant to me. :)

Elf

July 20th, 2004, 8:09 am

original post by Dr Hesper
Algie is a strange character too. Isnt it a bit odd that he was dangling Neville outside a window when he was little? Is he a Michael Jackson devotee?

LOL! Now I am picturing Uncle Algie with a sequined glove and a bad nose job! No wonder Neville has a bit of a complex! I guess if Uncle Algie starts singing "Bad" in the next book we'll have our answer! :)

furryfreakferret

July 20th, 2004, 7:04 pm

I have just noticed, that the Longbottoms did give evidence, but for some reason it was not believed, what did they say, and where is it written down are the gum wrappers somehow linked to the what they said, could that be what she is trying to tell her son, to look for the paperwork that surround the case, was the case wrapped up to early, or is she saying that the important clues are hidden in plain sight, but like a sweet wrapper, not really looked at, the interest being in the sweet itself. Oh! wow! I never even considered that! But, now you mention it, I do remember something about "their evidence, given their present state, was considered none too reliable." (Sorry, I don't have the exact quote. However, in PoA, the trio, Hermione in particular, were looking up trial records for Hagrid to use in his appeals for Buckbeak. And in GoF, when Harry's naming at-large Death Eaters, Fudge says he could have come across those names in old reports of the trials. The records for the Lestrange's case would be easy enough to get a hold of.... To the Library!

I never like Neville's Gran. I'm not too sure about this theory, but just to add more fuel to the fire, Gran's hat has a vulture on it. What is a vulture? A scavenger, a death eater.Forgive me, whiz, -bows deeply- but as you've already accused Molly Weasley of being a Death Eater... (And don't be ridiculous. We could never have lynched you! We couldn't be that organized if we tried. ;) ) Well, at least you're thinking outside the box. Besides, I thought we agreed that the vulture was the symbol of protection, like it is in Egyptian mythology?

Do the Dark Marks in some way work some sort of charm to protect Voldie from death? If the Death Eaters were eliminated, would Voldemort lose some or all of his protections from death? Interesting thought. I do think there's more to the Dark Marks than we know. I just don't know what is. I always assumed it was something to do with the soul. Something... Faustian.

Perhaps Sirius could be one. But you m ust admit that there are precious few. And you are right in that we simply don’t know enough about Snape. I truly don’t think hes evil though. He has a very abrasive personality and appears to hate Hary, but he has always stepped in when he could to prevent the kids from truly being injured. Wearing black shouldn’t truly be considered to be a sign of evil either since a lot of good people wear black. I know good people who should take better care of their hair as well. In fact, when one studies the character, we are likely to find that the worst thing about him is his personality. His prior affiliation with Voldemort could mean a few things. Yes, it is symbolic of a bad guy, but we had already been told that he was trusted by Dumbledore. So I have never really considered him to be evil. I've only just realized. (Don't you hate it when things stare you in the face and you don't see them?) Black is the color of mourning. Now, what could he be so upset about? :huh:

And, by the way, that whole idea with Anges being a wolf in sheep's clothing I think needs some looking into. Good catch! Sorry, I forgot to mark that one while I was reading so I don't know who to give credit to.

Dr Hesper

July 20th, 2004, 10:57 pm

Originally Posted by Masterfroggy
I have just noticed, that the Longbottoms did give evidence, but for some reason it was not believed, what did they say, and where is it written down are the gum wrappers somehow linked to the what they said, could that be what she is trying to tell her son, to look for the paperwork that surround the case, was the case wrapped up to early, or is she saying that the important clues are hidden in plain sight, but like a sweet wrapper, not really looked at, the interest being in the sweet itself.That would be interesting. I wonder though, why give the notes to Neville? Why not give them to Gram? She says that Neville has enough to paper his room with the wrappers. And if Gram truly is a villain, wouldn’t she see any messages concealed on them?

Hmm…I wonder about what everyone is saying about JKR’s website. People are suggesting that some of the wrappers appear to form numbers if you look at them hard enough. Could the wrappers that Neville have in his room form some type of message if some magic is performed on them or if you look at them a certain way? Perhaps after touching them a certain way or casting a spell on them, the wrappers can move like the bricks to the doorway to Diagon alley! This makes me wonder if perhaps the Longbottoms are truly mentally ill after all.

Theodorre

July 20th, 2004, 11:12 pm

Good theory

Good theory

Elf

July 20th, 2004, 11:19 pm

original post by furryfreakferret
And, by the way, that whole idea with Anges being a wolf in sheep's clothing I think needs some looking into. Good catch! Sorry, I forgot to mark that one while I was reading so I don't know who to give credit to.

Why thanks furryfreakferret! (Elf blushes reminiscent of Dumblefore and the earmuffs comment) :blush:

I think what JKR has very effectively done through this scene is build a case for several of the characters in the permanent spell damage ward to be the mysterious spy. She has planted many clues and some are probably red herrings. So is it Agnes, is it Gran, is it Miriam Strout or Lockheart? There are clues for all of them, which I can't imagine was a mistake on the part of the author. Of course that means we probably can't figure it out either, but I suppose we can keep digging, just in case!

Lash Dresden

July 21st, 2004, 6:22 am

This is my theory on the gum -- Lucius Malfoy gave a large donation to St. Mungos, I think he's paying off someone in there to keep the Longbottoms from ever getting well. There's obviously someone inside St. Mungos who's on the take, you couldn't just walk in through the front lobby with devil's snare in a pot, could you? There's someone evil - or being controlled by death eaters - inside St. Mungos. Whoever is on the death eater's payroll in St. Mungos is poisoning the gum and giving it to the Longbottoms. And Alice kind of knows, but can't stop it, so she's trying to give a hint to anyone who will listen to her, and that would be Neville.

silver ink pot

July 22nd, 2004, 6:00 am

Well, I finally found a picture I could use as my avatar that clearly shows the vulture crown of the Egyptian goddess Nekhbet. She is the protective goddess of motherhood. I found a website where you can buy a statue of her, and also a statue of Cleopatra wearing the same crown.

Mut is the name of the other vulture goddess. The words for mother and vulture were the same to the ancient Egyptians! If this isn't what JKR is thinking when she gives Neville's Gran a vulture hat, then I'll eat a vulture myself!

Notice that the vulture and the cobra are both symbols of mother goddesses and seen as protectors. On my avatar, the head of the vulture seems to be the head of a cobra. Remember how Snape appears with the vulture hat also?

http://www.rainbowcrystal.com/atext/egypt11.html

The vulture Goddess Nekhbet was originally worshipped in the city of Nekhbet but later she came to represent Upper Egypt, as the protective snake Goddess, Edjo of Buto, represented Lower Egypt. The animals of the two Goddesses became the symbolic animals of the two halves of the country. They became royal insignia, especially as adornments for the head, of the two crowns. Nekhbet is often shown with her wings outstretched in protection, hovering over the Pharaoh and holding in her claws the hieroglyphic symbol the "Shem", which means "to encircle" and "infinity," and represents lordship over all that the sun encircles. Nekhbet was also considered a Goddess of childbirth, often shown suckling the royal child or even the King himself. Here Nekhbet is depicted in the guise of an elegant queen.

http://www.crystalinks.com/mut.html

Mut: She was either depicted as a woman, sometimes with wings, or a vulture, usually wearing the crowns of royalty - she was often shown wearing the double crown of Egypt or the vulture headdress of the New Kingdom queens. Later she was shown as woman with the head of a lioness, as a cow or as a cobra as she took on the attributes of the other Egyptian goddesses. The ancient Egyptian link between vultures and motherhood lead to her name being the ancient Egyptian word for mother - mwt

SGosling

July 22nd, 2004, 6:23 am

zachKS

July 22nd, 2004, 6:26 am

All very interesting. I'd just felt the scene was to put Neville on the same "wizarding tier" as Harry in the reader's mind. Both lost their parents, and both seem to recieve "trinket" reminders from their parents (Gum wrappers/pictures). Both have a home life that leaves much to be desired...etc.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

whizbang121

July 22nd, 2004, 2:56 pm

I am sorry but the vulture hat is just a image from her (and my childhood,) older women from my mothers generation, would wear odd collections of dead animals and stuffed birds/ bird wings on their hats or draped around their necks, ok JK Rowling has applied a wizarding twist but she is drawing a picture as to the forbidding battleaxe nature of Neville’s Grandmother famous for their own particular “style” of dress and millinery
Why can't it be both? She could have put a flamingo on Gran's hat, but she chose the vulture. Remember the SilverInkPot's amazing quote that I still think describes JKR so well?

Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

This is probably the best post I ever read on these boards, because it just explains HP to me perfectly. It was also the inspiration for the original Layers thread.
But if we look at the Vulture in this light, especially since seeing the movie and Snape's slide show in DADA class, we can probably agree that not only are both interpretations on the mark, there are probably other meanings we can draw from the vulture hat as well.

But this has brought to mind how Lupin has deliberately connected Snape and Gran in the minds of this entire class. Is there a message in that, too?

Masterfroggy

July 22nd, 2004, 8:35 pm

Why can't it be both? She could have put a flamingo on Gran's hat, but she chose the vulture. Remember the SilverInkPot's amazing quote that I still think describes JKR so well?

But this has brought to mind how Lupin has deliberately connected Snape and Gran in the minds of this entire class. Is there a message in that, too?

Any nice cute bird, would fit the ‘normal’ battle axe feel of the contrast between the beauty of the bird and the ignominious use to which it was put,

but I feel that the “Wizarding Twist” that Steve was on about, is the key, take a pinstriped cloak or a green three piece suit, muggle but not quite, the hat is an indication that Neville’s Gran is trying to blend in to Muggle style of dress (they did go to the seaside/beach, where they tried to drown him (or was that in a fan fic I read).
However like a lime green bowler hat, Neville’s Wizarding Gran just missed it by a hair, and instead of a bluejay or a robin she chose a vulture,
It’s almost as if some one had told her that muggle’s wear dead birds on their hats and she just waved her wand said “pĕtăsātus avis” and stuck it on her head, never thinking any more about it

Lupin used Neville’s relational fear of Snape, and the comic image of Snape dressed in Neville’s Grans clothes to give him something to laugh at, to dispel his fear of both the boggart and the real Snape, Neville acted marginally less terrified of Snape, (in the fourth and fifth book) because of the mental image of him in a dress,

I am sorry but if you have every seen your tyrannical bully of a classics master dressed up in his finest and trying to impress a group of sixth form girls with his dancing skills, or lack of them you would never fear his wrath again

We can read too much into the books sometimes :blush:

whizbang121

July 22nd, 2004, 10:42 pm

I don't know. A pink flamingo would have made it to the "close but not quite" category. And I'm not arguing the point anyway. I just don't see why both interpretations can't be true.

As for overinterpretations, you must be new here. Allow me to introduce myself ....... ;)

ComicBookWorm

July 23rd, 2004, 3:47 am

magicatmidnight

July 23rd, 2004, 3:58 am

sorry but I just have to say= nevilles gran annoyes me so much! if she knows neville loves his mum so much why doesn't she support his feelings! "Dan marino should die of ganouria and rot in hell."- ace ventura pet detective. sorry i just had to post that it just came to me and it's so funny! anyways= you can see that she has complex feelings twoard her grandson but hey! get off your rocker and get happy granny!

Dr Hesper

July 23rd, 2004, 4:47 am

But this has brought to mind how Lupin has deliberately connected Snape and Gran in the minds of this entire class. Is there a message in that, too? I think so. This was one of the biggest reasons I began to take the imagery of Gram’s character more seriously. Neville didn’t want the boggart to turn into Snape because he was terrified of Snape. (So JKR immediately establishes that Neville doesn’t want the boggart to turn into someone he is afraid of.). He also didn’t want the boggart to turn into his grandmother. Why not? Would it have not been less frightening to be standing before an image of someone who didn’t frighten us?

Neville fears his Gram for some reason. JKR’s description of her is very interesting. The Vulture imagery does lead me to wonder if she might be connected (or is a supporter) of the Death Eaters.

Of course, it all might be a red herring and her hat might either indicate that she is a kindly, benevolent, protective force as has been suggest here. Or it also might indicate that Gram just dresses oddly. But placed into the context that Neville seems to fear his Gram…this outfit is very interesting.

:)

ComicBookWorm

July 23rd, 2004, 4:50 am

I think so. This was one of the biggest reasons I began to take the imagery of Gram’s character more seriously. Neville didn’t want the boggart to turn into Snape because he was terrified of Snape. (So JKR immediately establishes that Neville doesn’t want the boggart to turn into someone he is afraid of.). He also didn’t want the boggart to turn into his grandmother. Why not? Would it have not been less frightening to be standing before an image of someone who didn’t frighten us?

Neville fears his Gram for some reason. JKR’s description of her is very interesting. The Vulture imagery does lead me to wonder if she might be connected (or is a supporter) of the Death Eaters.

Of course, it all might be a red herring and her hat might either indicate that she is a kindly, benevolent, protective force as has been suggest here. Or it also might indicate that Gram just dresses oddly. But placed into the context that Neville seems to fear his Gram…this outfit is very interesting.

:)
Another reason to suspect the vulture besides it being an eater of death--Gran kind of hovers over the nearly dead bodies of her son and daughter-in-law.

Shauna

July 23rd, 2004, 5:05 am

Neville fears his Gram for some reason. JKR’s description of her is very interesting. The Vulture imagery does lead me to wonder if she might be connected (or is a supporter) of the Death Eaters.

I don't think Neville's Gram is evil. I think she just overmothers Neville, because of his being essentially an orphan. She doesn't know how to raise a bumbling kid, and so she is sharp with him.

I say this because Neville showed that he does have the courage to stand up to people -- Hermione, Harry, and Ron in PS/SS -- and they weren't even doing anything morally wrong. I think that if his Gram were evil, he would do something about it.

Shauna

silver ink pot

July 23rd, 2004, 6:18 am

Why can't it be both? She could have put a flamingo on Gran's hat, but she chose the vulture. Remember the SilverInkPot's amazing quote that I still think describes JKR so well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

This is probably the best post I ever read on these boards, because it just explains HP to me perfectly. It was also the inspiration for the original Layers thread.
But if we look at the Vulture in this light, especially since seeing the movie and Snape's slide show in DADA class, we can probably agree that not only are both interpretations on the mark, there are probably other meanings we can draw from the vulture hat as well.

But this has brought to mind how Lupin has deliberately connected Snape and Gran in the minds of this entire class. Is there a message in that, too?

Gee, Whiz - I am blushing up to my forehead! I almost never think of that quote as the inspiration for your amazing series of "Layers" threads, since so many others write insightful and thoughtful posts there daily! But yes! There can be layers of meaning in objects such as hats as well! Remember when Vernon sees the bowler on Moody's head at the end of OotP and thinks he is a kindred soul? That is so funny!

And a flamingo would have been a good hat, since the Egyptians thought of the flamingo as a sort of phoenix that rises from the burning desert.

As modern people, we read about a vulture hat and a fox fur and it all reminds us of our grandmothers wearing funny feathers on their hats or real animals around their necks. Only it is more macabre because a vulture is seen as unclean and disgusting. So Gran is sort of the archetypal gruff grandma. But I just can't believe that someone who seems to have loved her son, Frank, so much would be somehow responsible for his condition. Let's also remember that Neville feels vulnerable because he was so late in discovering his magical powers. So was Harry, in a way, because he never knew he was a wizard, so he and Neville aren't that different. I'm sure that Harry wouldn't want the Snape boggart to turn into one of the Dursleys, lol.

The way I see Gran, I believe that we have to think about what kind of "ancient" magic mothers (and Grandmothers) might use to protect their children (or grandchildren). All I can tell you is that the famous statue of Tut the boy king is wearing the vulture crown, as well as the cobra. You can't get much more "ancient" than that! And it is all about protection, not curses or hexes.

Kookiemon

July 23rd, 2004, 6:20 am

Neville fears his Gram for some reason. JKR’s description of her is very interesting. The Vulture imagery does lead me to wonder if she might be connected (or is a supporter) of the Death Eaters.
Read a previous post of mine about why Neville's grandmother may not actually be his grandmother.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1089364&postcount=1091

Dr Hesper

July 23rd, 2004, 7:46 am

Read a previous post of mine about why Neville's grandmother may not actually be his grandmother.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1089364&postcount=1091You may be onto something there.Why would Gram say that Alice and Frank both were Aurors unless she either didnt know....or was an imposter? We know that Uncle Algie gave Neville an exotic plant, so he obviously has an interest in botany. Is it possible that the weird plant sent to Bode was actually sent by either Algie or an imposter Gram? But why Bode?

Here's something else I'd like to mention. In the first chapter of GoF, we learn that Voldemort is in the Riddle House with Wormtail (Pettigrew). They begin to discuss Voldemorts latest sinister plan and then Pettigrew says something interesting. He asks whether Voldemort intends to go through with his plan, and asks why they had to get Harry. (Not surprising since we know that he owes Harry a favor). He then suggests that he can easily find another wizard for the plan. He reasons that he can do this because “you know that I can disguise myself most effectively…”.

What does Pettigrew really mean here? Does he mean that he can transform into a rat? Or could he be implying that he can transform his appearance to look like someone else? (Or something else?) Is it possible for a wizard to turn himself into an inanimate object? A plant is a living thing and an assassin wizard might be able to transform himself into a plant that could look like a tulip. Then, at the appropriate time when no one is looking, he could return to his previous form and strangle Bode. What powers has that silver arm given him? Did Pettigrew get into the Ward somehow and kill Bode? Was he the one disguised as the old wizard with the hearing trumpet? Is Healer Smethwyck’s disappearance tied to any of this?

ComicBookWorm

July 23rd, 2004, 8:29 am

You may be onto something there.Why would Gram say that Alice and Frank both were Aurors unless she either didnt know....or was an imposter? We know that Uncle Algie gave Neville an exotic plant, so he obviously has an interest in botany. Is it possible that the weird plant sent to Bode was actually sent by either Algie or an imposter Gram? But why Bode?

Here's something else I'd like to mention. In the first chapter of GoF, we learn that Voldemort is in the Riddle House with Wormtail (Pettigrew). They begin to discuss Voldemorts latest sinister plan and then Pettigrew says something interesting. He asks whether Voldemort intends to go through with his plan, and asks why they had to get Harry. (Not surprising since we know that he owes Harry a favor). He then suggests that he can easily find another wizard for the plan. He reasons that he can do this because “you know that I can disguise myself most effectively…”.

What does Pettigrew really mean here? Does he mean that he can transform into a rat? Or could he be implying that he can transform his appearance to look like someone else? (Or something else?) Is it possible for a wizard to turn himself into an inanimate object? A plant is a living thing and an assassin wizard might be able to transform himself into a plant that could look like a tulip. Then, at the appropriate time when no one is looking, he could return to his previous form and strangle Bode. What powers has that silver arm given him? Did Pettigrew get into the Ward somehow and kill Bode? Was he the one disguised as the old wizard with the hearing trumpet? Is Healer Smethwyck’s disappearance tied to any of this?
Healer Smethwyks disappearance? I must have missed that. Can you direct me that section so I can reread it? The only thing that I found was Arthur acting cagey so Molly wouldn't know he had tried a muggle remedy. He asked her if she had seen healer Smethwyck, but that was because he was afraid Molly might find out what he had been doing.
Here's the quote:

They found Mr Weasley propped up in bed with the remains of his turkey dinner on a tray on his lap and a rather sheepish expression on his face.

'Everything all right, Arthur?' asked Mrs Weasley, after they had all greeted Mr Weasley and handed over their presents.

'Fine, fine,' said Mr Weasley, a little too heartily. 'You er haven't seen Healer Smethwyck, have you?'

'No,' said Mrs Weasley suspiciously, 'why?'

'Nothing, nothing,' said Mr Weasley airily, starting to unwrap his pile of gifts. 'Well, everyone had a good day? What did you all get for Christmas? Oh, Harry - this is absolutely wonderful!' For he had just opened Harry's gift of fuse-wire and screwdrivers.

Mrs Weasley did not seem entirely satisfied with Mr Weasley's answer. As her husband leaned over to shake Harry's hand, she peered at the bandaging under his nightshirt.

'Arthur,' she said, with a snap in her voice like a mousetrap, 'you've had your bandages changed. Why have you had your bandages changed a day early, Arthur? They told me they wouldn't need doing until tomorrow.'

'What?' said Mr Weasley, looking rather frightened and pulling the bed covers higher up his chest. 'No, no - it's nothing - it's -l-

He seemed to deflate under Mrs Weasley's piercing gaze.

'Well - now don't get upset, Molly, but Augustus Pye had an idea he's the Trainee Healer, you know, lovely young chap and very interested in um complementary medicine 1 mean, some of these old Muggle remedies well, they're called stitches, Molly, and they work very well on - on Muggle wound

silver ink pot

July 23rd, 2004, 4:46 pm

Read a previous post of mine about why Neville's grandmother may not actually be his grandmother.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1089364&postcount=1091

Kookiemon - I had never seen your theory before! How strange! Now I'm worried!

Here is an excerpt from your post:

Now forgetting to state that Alice Longbottom was an Auror may have been an oversight by Mr. Crouch and Dumbledore, or JK Rowling; but I doubt it. I think that mentioning Alice Longbottom was an Auror was an oversight by the person posing as Neville's grandmother.

We know there are several ways to impersonate other people; Metamorphmagus, Polyjuice Potion, and Transfiguration. I think that the person posing as Neville's grandmother is poisoning the Longbottom's to make sure they do not recover.

Somehow it seems to me that Neville's Gran would try to be nicer to him if she was an imposter, not act more strict and severe. She's actually very nice to all the children and only gets angry at Neville when she realizes that he has never told his friends that his parents were tortured. Also, she seems so supportive of Dumbledore. On the other hand, the fake Moody was supportive of Dumbledore, too. And so it goes. :huh:

H4V0K

July 23rd, 2004, 6:15 pm

Kookiemon - I had never seen your theory before! How strange! Now I'm worried!
That is a pretty good theory but i dont know if it woud because Neville and his Gran being so close to Professor D,(Even though it worked for Crouch) i think Dumbeldor would suspect if anyone had tried to use the polyjuice potion on her. Professor Do would be more open to what is happening with the longbottoms because of the Prophecy comming into play now and he would suspect if anything would happen to him or his closest family :tu:

Dr Hesper

July 24th, 2004, 4:52 am

Healer Smethwyks disappearance? I must have missed that. Can you direct me that section so I can reread it? The only thing that I found was Arthur acting cagey so Molly wouldn't know he had tried a muggle remedy. He asked her if she had seen healer Smethwyck, but that was because he was afraid Molly might find out what he had been doing.No, you found the quote ok. But was none of that the least bit curious to you? Healer Smethwyk was gone. If he wasn't then why would Arthur ask about him, why would Smethwyk allow Pye to attempt a radical treatment on him? We must remember that Arthur did not say that Pye and Smethwyk were trying a muggle treatment on him. He only says Pye was trying it. This implies that Smethwyk wasnt there at all. He was gone. Smethwyk is the one that is supposed to be taking care of Weasley, yet all of a sudden he's not there and Augustus Pye is attempting a different non-magical healing method on him. We had already been alerted (by Ron i think) that most wizards didnt think highly of muggle healing methods. This is reinforced by Molly (whom I have absolutely no reason to truly believe she is the spawn of Satan) when she learns that they tried something different. she acted guenuinely concerned for her husband and reminds me a lot of a neighbor of mine who is loving but high-strung. ;)

I believe Arthur Weasley is fond of Muggles, but he's not all-knowing and does make mistakes. In fact, we've seen a few other times where his interest and love of Muggles have gone haywire and JKR is establishing a pattern here. This time his love of Muggles and their methods nearly caused him to bleed to death. Smethwyk (who was not mentioned as having been interested in Muggle techniques) should have known that. If you read the passage differently thats ok. But i disagree.

But anyway, that's neither here nor there and had been discussed several pages back. I didnt wish to debate semantics all over again, so forget I said it. I was mainly curious about what Pettigrew said and if that could somehow relate to the odd occurances in the Longbottom's ward.

Sorry for the long post. Maybe the forum police will forgive me this time... :p

Somehow it seems to me that Neville's Gran would try to be nicer to him if she was an imposter, not act more strict and severe. She's actually very nice to all the children and only gets angry at Neville when she realizes that he has never told his friends that his parents were tortured. Also, she seems so supportive of Dumbledore. On the other hand, the fake Moody was supportive of Dumbledore, too. And so it goes. :huh:Exactly. She wasnt acting like the sort of person Neville might be afraid of was she? Yet we see that Neville may have implied he was afraid of Gram when he faced the Boggart. So what can we make of this?

This is why I brought up the Vulture/death-eater imagery. Kookiemon's theory is a great one and I think it gives weight to either an imposter theory or a traitor theory. :)

ComicBookWorm

July 24th, 2004, 5:00 am

No, you found the quote ok. But was none of that the least bit curious to you? Healer Smethwyk was gone. If he wasn't then why would Arthur ask about him, why would Smethwyk allow Pye to attempt a radical treatment on him? We must remember that Arthur did not say that Pye and Smethwyk were trying a muggle treatment on him. He only says Pye was trying it. This implies that Smethwyk wasnt there at all. He was gone. Smethwyk is the one that is supposed to be taking care of Weasley, yet all of a sudden he's not there and Augustus Pye is attempting a different non-magical healing method on him. We had already been alerted (by Ron i think) that most wizards didnt think highly of muggle healing methods. This is reinforced by Molly (whom I have absolutely no reason to truly believe she is the spawn of Satan) when she learns that they tried something different. she acted guenuinely concerned for her husband and reminds me a lot of a neighbor of mine who is loving but high-strung. ;)

I believe Arthur Weasley is fond of Muggles, but he's not all-knowing and does make mistakes. In fact, we've seen a few other times where his interest and love of Muggles have gone haywire and JKR is establishing a pattern here. This time his love of Muggles and their methods nearly caused him to bleed to death. Smethwyk (who was not mentioned as having been interested in Muggle techniques) should have known that. If you read the passage differently thats ok. But i disagree.

That quote didn't say the healer Smethwyk was gone, only Arthur was asking if Molly had seen the healer since he was feeling guilty about trying the muggle treatment and Smethwyk would have told her what he had done. I am certain there would have been times where Pye could have been convinced to try the treatment on Arthur without Smethwyk knowing it. If we were to find out that Pye was the one who allowed the Devil's snare into the ward, then I would be more suspicious.

The first time I read it I read it the way you did. But the second time, I thought it was obvious that he was just feeling guilty.

Dr Hesper

July 24th, 2004, 5:06 am

Mmm...again, you read it differently than i did. I didnt wish to debate semantics all over again, so forget I said it. I was mainly curious about what Pettigrew said and if that could somehow relate to the odd occurances in the Longbottom's ward.

furryfreakferret

July 25th, 2004, 12:13 am

Hmm.... Well, yes, I suppose it could be Arthur's feeling guilty or perhaps anxious that the treatment was going as well as hoped. But, personally, I do find it interesting that Arthur had to ask if Molly had seen Smethywyk. How often do you suppose the Healers usually check up on their patients? It runs along the lines of Eric Munch's bizarre disappearances. But that's another thread, I think. ;)

Any nice cute bird, would fit the ‘normal’ battle axe feel of the contrast between the beauty of the bird and the ignominious use to which it was put,

but I feel that the “Wizarding Twist” that Steve was on about, is the key, take a pinstriped cloak or a green three piece suit, muggle but not quite, the hat is an indication that Neville’s Gran is trying to blend in to Muggle style of dress (they did go to the seaside/beach, where they tried to drown him (or was that in a fan fic I read).
However like a lime green bowler hat, Neville’s Wizarding Gran just missed it by a hair, and instead of a bluejay or a robin she chose a vulture,
It’s almost as if some one had told her that muggle’s wear dead birds on their hats and she just waved her wand said “pe<breve>ta<breve>sa¯tus avis” and stuck it on her head, never thinking any more about it

Lupin used Neville’s relational fear of Snape, and the comic image of Snape dressed in Neville’s Grans clothes to give him something to laugh at, to dispel his fear of both the boggart and the real Snape, Neville acted marginally less terrified of Snape, (in the fourth and fifth book) because of the mental image of him in a dress,

I am sorry but if you have every seen your tyrannical bully of a classics master dressed up in his finest and trying to impress a group of sixth form girls with his dancing skills, or lack of them you would never fear his wrath again

We can read too much into the books sometimes Kudos, froggy. Excellent post!

He also didn’t want the boggart to turn into his grandmother. Why not? Would it have not been less frightening to be standing before an image of someone who didn’t frighten us?

Neville fears his Gram for some reason. JKR’s description of her is very interesting. The Vulture imagery does lead me to wonder if she might be connected (or is a supporter) of the Death Eaters. I've only just thought: Maybe Neville read Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds and now he can't stand the sight of that stuffed vulture because he thinks it's going to come alive and tear him to bits. Yep. :agree: That's my new theory.

angel spirit

July 25th, 2004, 12:30 am

I've only just thought: Maybe Neville read Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds and now he can't stand the sight of that stuffed vulture because he thinks it's going to come alive and tear him to bits. Yep. That's my new theory.

:lol: I remember watching The Birds a long time ago and being scared to death for about a week. That movie is one I could have done without seeing...

wiedy

July 25th, 2004, 1:11 am

I agree with Rapunzel. Who keeps sending the gum to the Longbottoms? I think the GUM is keeping them ill. They obviously have been chewing it a lot. The wrapper may be a cry for help. I also think Neville's granmother is his true grandmother and is not a villian. Neville will do great things with his new wand.
This is my first post, I hope I did it right!

GryffindorSeeker

July 25th, 2004, 1:35 am

ComicBookWorm

July 25th, 2004, 1:53 am

I have a feeling that if Smethwyk had found out about the stitches, Pye would be booted out the door. As said previously, we know what wizards think about muggle healing, and if Smethwyk had found out Pye was seriously considering using it (and doing it) then Pye would be in a bit of trouble.
But do you think that Pye did it because he knew it wouldn't work? I think it was just a dumb misadventure probably initiated by Arthur,. Otherwise it would mean that Pye was a spy (that's fun if you read it outloud since it rhymes). I know we are all looking for clues everywhere. And the gum really is suspicious. But not the stitches.

filius

July 25th, 2004, 2:13 am

I was just thinking then I wondered where Neville's mom gets all the gum. She eats it and all. I'm sure Neville wouldn't buy it for her, his gran would forbid him. So, maybe someone outside, because the hospital will most certainly not pay for gum, who is trying to prevent them from getting better. Maybe this gum is bewitched. Like the Devil's Snare incident with Bode. We know she eats them because the wrapers are well, empty.
Does Neville's father eat the gum as well? Because it always seems that his mother is the one that always gives it to him.

(Sorry if I've repeated anythingfrom earlier posts- this thread is so long!)

GryffindorSeeker

July 25th, 2004, 2:33 am

We've actually seen Alice give it to Neville. I wonder if Frank has any behaviour we could analyze.... shame we haven't seen him, I would like too. Frank could possibly give it to Neville, but that hasn't been mentioned. It was just "she" not "they". :shrug:

ChoirDuck

July 25th, 2004, 2:50 am

I do think that the gum wrappers have a significance. But I also think that Neville's parents really are crazy and I'm not sure how much his mom recognizes him. I also don't think that Neville knows of any importance in the wrappers yet. I think he just keeps them out of sentiment for his mom. I'm not really sure which theroy I believe is the actual purpose of the wrappers but I definatley think they mean something that will soon be revealed.

Dr Hesper

July 26th, 2004, 1:00 am

Does anyone find it interesting that Pettigrew tells Voldemort that he can "disguise himself most effectively"? I know he can turn into a rat, but could this also mean he can change to look like different people? If so...then should we be taking another look at some of the weird goings on at St. Mungos? Such as the old wizard with the ear trumpet asking for Bode? Or perhaps some of the patients or healers on the Longbottom's ward?

I've only just thought: Maybe Neville read Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds and now he can't stand the sight of that stuffed vulture because he thinks it's going to come alive and tear him to bits. Yep. That's my new theory.
*Laughing* It scared the bejeezies out of me too! As did 'Psycho'. I live alone and still dont want to watch those films. :p

I agree with Rapunzel. Who keeps sending the gum to the Longbottoms? I think the GUM is keeping them ill. They obviously have been chewing it a lot. The wrapper may be a cry for help. I also think Neville's granmother is his true grandmother and is not a villian. Neville will do great things with his new wand.
This is my first post, I hope I did it right!You did fine. Welcome to the forum! :) This whole gum thing has me confused to say the least. I think I've overanalyzed it after so long. I have wondered for a long time if the gum was poisoned or was somehow keeping the Longbottoms addled. I even went so far as to try to find out the ingredients of gum and see if any could be linked to known potions. (then i gave up and returned to writing my novel, which has been a blessing). ;)
I now wonder if perhaps there is nothing at all to the actual gum itself because this seems too obvious for JKR. I am curious still about the wrappers and their possible connection with people seeing numbers or writing on JKR's website that is made from the old crumpled wrappers. (Apparently some have mentioned that some of the wrappers on her website seem to form numbers of some sort). If Neville has enough wrappers to paper his room, then could it be possible that a spell can be used to cause the wrappers to form a message somehow? Maybe the wrappers are bewitched to tell Neville something and they might move around like the bricks at diagon Alley, only this time they form words. (Hey, i might use that in my novel!) ;)

I have a feeling that if Smethwyk had found out about the stitches, Pye would be booted out the door. As said previously, we know what wizards think about muggle healing, and if Smethwyk had found out Pye was seriously considering using it (and doing it) then Pye would be in a bit of trouble.I think you may be right. I've felt all along that Pye's presence there was temporary anyway. Malfoy probably got him that job for a reason. Not sure exactly what that reason could be, but there are some possibilities. Assassin? Spy? Both? Malfoy has good reason to hate Arthur Weasley. He also has good reason to hope that the Longbottoms never talk again. I dont remember what grudge he may have against Bode, but it wouldnt surprise me if he had one. If Pye was sent in there to harm Arthur then I think that using a muggle technique that he knew wouldnt be able to stop the flow of blood would be a very good way to kill Weasley. So yeah, i think Pye would do it if he's a death eater. (Also, as a death eater, he might have known what technique would work and wouldnt work againt Nagini's bite). I dont know for sure that Pye is a bad guy, but I think it was pretty odd that he just so happened to be assigned to Arthur Weasley's ward and just so happened to try a method of healing that his regular healer didnt try. He just happened to try a muggle method of healing that apparently most wizards scoff at. Hmm...pretty weird I'd say.

furryfreakferret

July 26th, 2004, 4:30 am

filius, long as it is, you may want to go back and read a bit. It's a highly interesting read, I assure you. We've actually found evidence that Alice is NOT chewing the gum. ;)

You're probably right, Seeker. Pye would be in an awful lot of trouble if Smethwyk (or anyone else for that matter) ever found out about their little misadventure in Muggle medicine. You know... I wonder what kind of string they used.... -is filled with unpleasant thoughts of kite string or yarn- Hey, you know, I've just thought. I had to get stitches a while back and, while it took a while for me to even be able to look at them, I now have a lot of fun with them. Guess who's got a scar on the inside of her left forearm, exactly where the Dark Mark would go? :elaugh: Maybe Arthur's got one too and perhaps it, like Harry's, "marks" him for something? Or... better yet, it's probably the snake, who was being controlled by Voldemort ("And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal..."), who left the mark.... Arthur for Minister, anyone? Or... when's HIS birthday, I wonder?

So... Pye a Death Eater? Hm. He's quite a likeable character in my fanfics. But... you've got some good points up there, Doc, I may have to go re-examine him. It is odd that two such Muggle-obsessionists should find themselves miraculously in the same room when everyone else, Minister and Muggle-lover's wife included, seems to think them nutcases. And what else could Arthur and he talked about, one Arthur had admitted him into his confidence? I, at least, get pretty open with anyone I feel understands, the more so if its over something which isn't often understood.

(then i gave up and returned to writing my novel, which has been a blessing). You a REAL writer, Doc? I mean, beyond fanfics like the rest of us? Wow! Good luck with your novel! :D

muggledeedee

July 26th, 2004, 5:38 am

A little off topic, but has anyone been to the JK Rowling site? Does anyone else find it interesting that the cluttered desk pictures many, many empty gum wrappers? Do you think that this has any significance to support our theories that the gum wrappers really mean something very important or that JK just likes chewing gum and wrote it into the books as a little inside joke?

Dr Hesper

July 27th, 2004, 12:51 pm

filius, long as it is, you may want to go back and read a bit. It's a highly interesting read, I assure you. We've actually found evidence that Alice is NOT chewing the gum. Wow. I’ve read a sizable chunk of this thread already and while I remember a question of whether the gum was being chewed, and what was happening to it, I don’t remember anyone saying they had evidence that it definitely was not being chewed or where it was coming from. To me this is significant. :huh:

Hey, you know, I've just thought. I had to get stitches a while back and, while it took a while for me to even be able to look at them, I now have a lot of fun with them. Guess who's got a scar on the inside of her left forearm, exactly where the Dark Mark would go? I do! I do! *Laughing* I’ve got one on my right inside forearm from way back. Maybe we’re “Cosmic twins” or something. We should start a club. :rotfl:

Or... better yet, it's probably the snake, who was being controlled by Voldemort ("And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal..."), who left the mark.... Arthur for Minister, anyone?Arthur’s got my vote! In fact, I mentioned him for that position in a thread somewhere a month or two ago. Lol! BTW, I noticed at JKR’s site that one of the little flashing “bylines” indicates that Fudge has been run out of office. I think its at the bottom of page that reports JKR is Pregnant again. This goes along with JKR telling us in an interview that Fudge would definitely be replaced. Perhaps it will come in this next book.

So... Pye a Death Eater? Hm. He's quite a likeable character in my fanfics. But... you've got some good points up there, Doc, I may have to go re-examine him. It is odd that two such Muggle-obsessionists should find themselves miraculously in the same room when everyone else, Minister and Muggle-lover's wife included, seems to think them nutcases. And what else could Arthur and he talked about, one Arthur had admitted him into his confidence? I, at least, get pretty open with anyone I feel understands, the more so if its over something which isn't often understood.Healer’s Smethwyk’s disappearance is reminiscent of Dumbledore’s being called away at a crucial moment in PS/SS. Augustus Pye is a curious bird. There are actually real-life horror stories from the newspapers of a couple of nurses in America who either poisoned patients or gave them medication that was designed to kill them. I can see JKR using this bit of news in her story. While I have no hard evidence to back up my hypothesis, there are a number of curious coincidences that make him look suspicious to me. How easy would it be for Malfoy to insert an agent into Arthur’s ward? Assuming that Arthur’s hated enemy (Lucius Malfoy) has tremendous influence in St. Mungos, he probably would find this a terrific opportunity to strike at Arthur in his weakened state. Arthur probably wouldn’t have his wand handy. He is wounded. He is forced to place his trust in people he doesn’t know (healers). Everyone knows that Arthur is fascinated with Muggles. How ironic would it be for him to die as a result of meddling with Muggle techniques? What sort of message would that send to the wizarding world? And yes, I agree that Arthur is a pretty friendly guy who appears willing to discuss all sorts of topics with people he just met. Who knows what information may have been gleaned from discussion with him.

Oh…and is Augustus Pye still at St. Mungos? Or did he melt into obscurity once Smethwyk returned?

You a REAL writer, Doc? I mean, beyond fanfics like the rest of us? Wow! Good luck with your novel!*chuckle* I’ll be a real writer when I publish that best-seller. But I used to write fanfic for a tv series a few years ago. Fanfic is a terrific way to hone one’s skills. After awhile, however, I found myself unwilling to put so much time and effort into a piece of work that I can never publish, using characters that someone else owns. So I began writing my own original stories. :)

A little off topic, but has anyone been to the JK Rowling site? Does anyone else find it interesting that the cluttered desk pictures many, many empty gum wrappers? Do you think that this has any significance to support our theories that the gum wrappers really mean something very important or that JK just likes chewing gum and wrote it into the books as a little inside joke? Hi Muggledeedee! Yes, a lot of folks have mentioned the connection between JKR’s desk and this topic. Some have even suggested that the wrapper on her desk form letters or numbers. It took me a couple of minutes to see, but I found them. However, though we all have theories on what significane the gum wrappers in the story may have, it really might all be a joke JKR is playing on those of us who tend to overanalyze her stories…finding clues everywhere. Its still a lot of fun. :)

3SingMuggle

July 27th, 2004, 7:01 pm

JKR said on her site that she's trying to quit smoking, hence the gum wrappers. They may gives clues to Neville's predicament, but i'm not going to try to figure it out.
I don't know why Neville's mom is giving him the wrappers, but she obviously remembers him, because she gives the wrappers only to him. If it was some randon action, other people would get the wrappers, too. Maybe she's making progress in her recovery...I hope so, I really want to know what she has to say, and what it is that the Lestrange's tried to hide.

furryfreakferret

July 27th, 2004, 8:57 pm

Wow. I’ve read a sizable chunk of this thread already and while I remember a question of whether the gum was being chewed, and what was happening to it, I don’t remember anyone saying they had evidence that it definitely was not being chewed or where it was coming from. To me this is significant. Well, perhaps 'evidence' is a little strong. But... there are no bluebell bubbles floating around the hospital and that seems, in the least, suspicious.

I do! I do! *Laughing* I’ve got one on my right inside forearm from way back. Maybe we’re “Cosmic twins” or something. We should start a club. Do you really? Wow.... That is a little freaky. Mine's on my left forearm though. Does your have a shape? I've got an anchor. (Can you believe we're having this conversation?)

Well, looks like Arthur for Minister must shut down (according to jkrowling.com) and he's really too old to have been "approaching" 16 years ago, so I suppose him being the child in the prophecy's out too. Still... I wonder whether he has been marked for something else by that snake....

Anyway... bubblegum... right.

Kelfa21

July 27th, 2004, 9:27 pm

Dedalus Diggle

July 27th, 2004, 9:47 pm

Hi guys...I've been watching this thread develop for awhile and you guys talk about everything from what meaning does the gum wrappers hold to how Neville's Grandmother ties in

I have a question/observation...and ignore it if you guys have already discussed it to death...I can't sort through this whole thread...there is too much info!

I was reading OotP last night and during the chapter where Harry and Ron are annalyzing dreams while Trwelany is being examined by Umbridge...Neville starts telling Dean about a nightmare he has had
"a nigthmare involving a pair of giant sissors wearing his grandmother's best hat." (OotP, American pg. 238).
Anybody have a dream analyzer or could decipher this...it may mean something...

In light of the topics of this thread, that's a marvelous new topic. I don't believe it has ever been brought up here. My first reaction is that it reflects castration anxiety - the most common interpretation of males associating sharp objects with women - and this would be particularly appropriate for a lad like Neville who has been so thoroughly dominated by such an imperious woman. It could reflect his growing awareness of how he has been kept weaker by things she has done to him (making him use his fathers' wand, for instance) and his psychic struggle against those barriers, as by joining the DA and preparing himself mentally to be the brave Gryffindor that the Sorting Hat recognized in him. Even if it was just something he made up so that he and Dean would have something to analyze in front of Umbridge, it is revealing for the sort of imagery his mind leapt to under stress.

It is also very possible that his subconscious was associating the scissors with Umbridge, an even more demeaning female presence, but dressing it - literally and figuratively in his grandmothers identity as a defense mechanism.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on a new line of inquiry.

3SingMuggle

July 27th, 2004, 10:04 pm

The scissors that resemble his grandmother could also mean that she is prepared to sever (or cut) some things that are close to Neville (his friendships, maybe?).

Dr Hesper

July 28th, 2004, 12:46 am

Well, perhaps 'evidence' is a little strong. But... there are no bluebell bubbles floating around the hospital and that seems, in the least, suspicious.Yep. I sort of thought this too. Of course, its possible they could have chewed the gum without blowing bubbles. Most likely though it isnt being chewed and this makes me wonder where the gum is going.

Do you really? Wow.... That is a little freaky. Mine's on my left forearm though. Does your have a shape? I've got an anchor. (Can you believe we're having this conversation?)*Laughing* Mines a skull. No, wait...it isnt really. Mine is a slash. I got it when I was in my early twenties. I was in construction and laying some steel for a concrete foundation for a new school. I cut the steel and it whipped upward, slashing open my arm and barely nicking my eyebrow. the eyebrow healed nicely, but man....another couple of centimeters and I'd be looking like an old pirate! Who sez there aint someone above looking out for me. Lol! :eyebrows:

Kelfa21

July 28th, 2004, 1:06 am

In light of the topics of this thread, that's a marvelous new topic. I don't believe it has ever been brought up here. My first reaction is that it reflects castration anxiety - the most common interpretation of males associating sharp objects with women - and this would be particularly appropriate for a lad like Neville who has been so thoroughly dominated by such an imperious woman. It could reflect his growing awareness of how he has been kept weaker by things she has done to him (making him use his fathers' wand, for instance) and his psychic struggle against those barriers, as by joining the DA and preparing himself mentally to be the brave Gryffindor that the Sorting Hat recognized in him. Even if it was just something he made up so that he and Dean would have something to analyze in front of Umbridge, it is revealing for the sort of imagery his mind leapt to under stress.

It is also very possible that his subconscious was associating the scissors with Umbridge, an even more demeaning female presence, but dressing it - literally and figuratively in his grandmothers identity as a defense mechanism.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on a new line of inquiry.

Your very welcome.... :tu:
For now, I think I want to assume that Neville really did have a nightmare like this. I wish we had a little bit more detail about this nightmare...whether it was reacuring and whether or not the sissors was attacking him...

Thats an intereting theory...Neville is growing up quickly and I'm sure he feels his Grandmother is keeping him back and preventing him from developing a personality of his own.
She constantly compares him to his father and how disapointed that he does not have his father's talent.
I believe his grandmother could be considered verbally abusive towards Neville. She is very frank and offers no words of encouragement and no praise.
I think this dream may be the beggining of Neville breaking out of his shell...because he is willing to talk about a horrible dream like this..from there he joins the DA and begins to improve with his spellwork.

I'm not sure where I stand on the theory that the Gum Wrappers mean something more...but as of right now I think that the reason he keeps the Gum wrappers partly has to do with his standing up to his Grandmother.

She tells him to throw the wrapper away and he doesnt...he disobeys her and pockets the wrapper. I think this act, though small, is his way of rebelling against authority. He is growing up and becoming a mad...go Neville!

furryfreakferret

July 28th, 2004, 1:48 am

Hooray, Kelfa21! A wonderful, new, and exciting topic for us to poke around! First, thank you, Ded for that very good argument. There's a good chance you've hit the nail on the head. (And that's hard to do in the Potterverse.) But, may I add? Would not scissors represent sharpness? We know Gran has quite a sharp manner, especially toward Neville. Though... that doesn't seem deep enough....

*Laughing* Mines a skull. No, wait...it isnt really. Mine is a slash. I got it when I was in my early twenties. I was in construction and laying some steel for a concrete foundation for a new school. I cut the steel and it whipped upward, slashing open my arm and barely nicking my eyebrow. the eyebrow healed nicely, but man....another couple of centimeters and I'd be looking like an old pirate! Who sez there aint someone above looking out for me. Lol! That was lucky. -thanks Doc's guardian for him- Though, I see nothing wrong with looking like an old pirate. Johnny Depp seems proof. I don't have any interesting story. Mine's the remnents of the stictches that held my PIC line, George, in place.

muggledeedee

July 28th, 2004, 4:33 am

I'm not sure where I stand on the theory that the Gum Wrappers mean something more...but as of right now I think that the reason he keeps the Gum wrappers partly has to do with his standing up to his Grandmother.

She tells him to throw the wrapper away and he doesnt...he disobeys her and pockets the wrapper. I think this act, though small, is his way of rebelling against authority. He is growing up and becoming a mad...go Neville!

Great thought! It is the only thing hi has to keep a connection with his mother, his Gran is totally abusive toward him in the verbal sense. From the time Neville started Hogwarts he was downtrodden. He could have only gotten like that from good ol' Gran.

Finally we have begun to see a transformation in him . I can expect that we will see several more acts of defiance, not only to Gran but I can se him standing up for himslef with Draco, Snape adn maybe even Voldemort at some point.

Back to the topic - Maybe the Gum wrappers don't mean anything important to anyone but Neville. Then again I like this theory of the wrappers. I would hope that it is some cry for help and that *** Longbotoms can regain their sanity again someday and the key to it all lies in those blasted wrappers or even the gum contained in them.

Kelfa21

July 28th, 2004, 6:07 am

Finally we have begun to see a transformation in him . I can expect that we will see several more acts of defiance, not only to Gran but I can se him standing up for himslef with Draco, Snape adn maybe even Voldemort at some point.

Well, we did see Neville stand up to Malfoy...though not very effectively. He charged him when Malfoy let loose a horrible comment about people who are insane at St. Mungos.

No one knew, with the exception of Harry, why Neville tried to attack Malfoy. I'm almost positive it will happen again. Malfoy will make yet another comment and Neville will probably try to hex him this time...thanks to all the stuff he learned in DA.

Anyway...the next step is Neville standing up to Snape...
*rubs hands together*
oooh...that out to be good! :evil:

Scarlet Tears

July 28th, 2004, 7:19 am

Great catch on the dream, Kelfa21! :tu:

I looked into the subjects of Neville's nightmare on www.dreammoods.com and found this:

Scissors
To dream that you are using scissors, denotes decisiveness and control in your waking life. Alternatively, it may suggests that you need to get rid of something in your life. It also represents your ability to cut things or people out of your life.

Even though Neville wasn't using the scissors, they were still an important symbol and the interpretation could still apply, especially in this case. As you all have pointed out, Neville has already begun to sever ties with his grandmother by showing signs of standing up to her authority. In fact, the point about him pocketing the gum wrappers, trying to attack Malfoy, and even stading up to Harry, Ron, and Hermione in SS/PS all demonstrate the emergence of the brave Gryffindor within him.

Hat
To see a hat in your dream, signifies that you are concealing something or covering up something. Alternatively, it may represent the role you play or the responsibilities you have in life.

Well, we know that Neville was concealing the fact that his parents were at St. Mungo's, but since the hat was being worn by a pair of scissors (which probably represent his grandmother), perhaps this means that his grandmother is trying to hide something. It could also symbolize how his grandmother's role in his life, which is to care for him in place of his parents, has become quite a burden on him because of her constant criticism.

Common Dream Theme: "I'm Being Chased"
Chase dreams often stem from feelings of anxiety in your walking life. The way we respond to anxiety and pressure in real life is typically manifested as a chase dream. Running is an instinctive response to physical threats in our environment. Often in these dream scenarios, you are being pursued by some attacker, who wants to hurt or possibly kill you. You are running away, hiding, or trying to outwit your pursuer. Chase dreams may represent your way of coping with fears, stress or various situations in your waking life. Instead of confronting the situation, you are running away and avoiding it. Ask yourself who is the one chasing you and you may gain some understanding and insight on the source of your fears and pressure.

This description is especially relevant to Neville's current situation. His subconscious might be alerting him to the fact that he has been "running away" from his grandmother by allowing her to criticize him so much. I'm sure that her high expectations put him under a lot of stress and anxiety, and his inability to confront her has led him to become very insecure. Yet the fact that he pockets the gum wrappers gives us some hope that he might soon be willing to sever ties to his grandmother's authority and stand up for himself in the future.