Snape loved Lily?

Wow, that was a harsh thing to say JK! Oh well..her character, must admit, it was preety funny, in a slack kind of way. :rotfl:

I've said this before but I just can't wait for the idea that Snape finally proves Rowling right and does something truly horrible and viscious so that people will stop looking at him as some little tortutred fluff ball of love. People seem to see him as a sugar ball but I see him as a demented creme puff.

I've said this before but I just can't wait for the idea that Snape finally proves Rowling right and does something truly horrible and viscious so that people will stop looking at him as some little tortutred fluff ball of love. People seem to see him as a sugar ball but I see him as a demented creme puff.

Yeah, I agree. Though I like Snape as an interesting character, I think JKR too often says that we should not be too good for him. He is evil (at least a bit), and he'll show this soon.

I tried to do a search. I know I have the exact quote somewhere but here is a more audio version:

http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/connection/13.%20Snape.mp3

She actually laughs at this. LOL.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thank you so much for that link! She said she was slightly stumped that the guy asked about that, and she said the answer was in book 7.

Really, thanks again!

I hate myself for thinking and saying this, but I couldn't help wondering... why would would she be 'stunned' that they asked that and say that they would find the answer in Book 7 unless it's actually true in some way?

I still feel that it's somehow 'wrong' .... but for the life of me, I can't think of any other reason for her answer. Is it possible that perhaps Snape loved someone else? But who else do we know that may fit the bill except Lily?

NONONO!!!!! I dunno why, but I'm completly against this. It just dosn't feel right. If Snape like Lily, there 2 totally different people, Lupin and Lily is a no as well, but thats a different thread. Anyways I'm sorry, I have no idea why I'm so against this, I just don't think that everyone loved lily! Especially not Snape. :sad:
I'm right with you, Padfoot. Lily is already on her way to becoming an unbearably perfect character. I'd like to see her pick up a few faults, and would prefer if everyone and his brother wasn't ga-ga over her.

I hate myself for thinking and saying this, but I couldn't help wondering... why would would she be 'stunned' that they asked that and say that they would find the answer in Book 7 unless it's actually true in some way?

I still feel that it's somehow 'wrong' .... but for the life of me, I can't think of any other reason for her answer. Is it possible that perhaps Snape loved someone else? But who else do we know that may fit the bill except Lily?

Maybe its just because we heard the clip in the context of this thread?

But Dumbly says he switched sides before Voldie's downfall, that means, before Lily's death. Maybe it was because Lily was in danger after the prophecy about her son?
Nah Snape wouldn't care about her son and I doubt he cared about her.
I think Snape got on the wrong side of v. or atleast someone close to him did (maybe a wife who was killed) So snape went off to work for the good guys. Nowt to do with the lovely lily.

Have just heard griffindor G's clip....
She wasn't so much laughing at Snape and Lily but Snape being in love atall. Hmmm Why? What makes him loveless? I know it's hard to find him attractive but why not the other way?
I never found Snape attractive until the films came out so I think most of this 'aww Snape's ok' stuff is really just ' Alan Rickman is so darn cool!'

I never found Snape attractive until the films came out so I think most of this 'aww Snape's ok' stuff is really just ' Alan Rickman is so darn cool!'
I have to agree with you there :) ... He makes it extremely hard to continue disliking Snape as we know him from the books!

But really... why would she be 'stunned someone asked that' and why would the find the answer in Book 7??

I've said this before but I just can't wait for the idea that Snape finally proves Rowling right and does something truly horrible and viscious so that people will stop looking at him as some little tortutred fluff ball of love. People seem to see him as a sugar ball but I see him as a demented creme puff.

Regardless of how we feel for Snape (or don't), he is one of the most complex, dimensional characters in the book. He's so mysterious - for every answer about him, it raises 10 more - which makes him fascinating. He's not a stock character. He has depth and can do more for the story in a short chapter than some can for pages.

If he turns out good or horribly evil, it's been an interesting ride with the character and the fact that we could see it coming/didn't see it coming has us gripped to the pages of the novel.

I have to agree with you there :) ... He makes it extremely hard to continue disliking Snape as we know him from the books!

But really... why would she be 'stunned someone asked that' and why would the find the answer in Book 7??

Good question, because the question wasn't directly about Lily, but it in general seemed to have flustered her a bit.

But really... why would she be 'stunned someone asked that' and why would the find the answer in Book 7??
She would be "stunned someone asked her that" because Snape is not romantic. No. Sorry ladies.
The answer can be found in Book 7 becasue that is where JKR has chosen to reveal it. :lol:

But really... why would she be 'stunned someone asked that' and why would the find the answer in Book 7??
Reminds me a bit of Ron's very logical comment about Most Potente Potions in CoS: "Hard to see why we'd want the book really if we weren't going to try to make one of the potions".

Likewise, the possibilities here sort of seem to boil down to two; (1) Snape does fall in love with someone, or did in the past; (2) Snape will turn out to loathe the very concept such that the idea is laughable. Either way, we can expect it to be a significant revelation when Book 7 comes out (so in about five years' time then).

Compare and contrast with her reaction to the question "Is there any connection between Snape and vampires?" in the recent World Book Day webchat: "Um - I don't think so."

Oh, and thanks GryffindorGr for posting the audio clip. It's just struck me that I've never actually heard (as opposed to read) a JKR interview before! In fact, actually hearing it gives me the impression that she was responding to the Snape-falling-in-love comment from the internet questioner, rather than the redemptive-pattern comment from the interviewer (which she seems to be ignoring and talking over while she thinks what to say). That's the opposite impression to the one I got from the transcript.

I should declare an interest in that Snape-having-feelings-for-Lily is a pet speculation of mine right back from the days of Book 1, when it was based essentially on no evidence whatsoever. :)

I think that Snape was jealous of James...not because James was with Lily, but because James was many things that Snape was not. Popular, good looking, etc. When Lily tried to defend Snape in "Snape's Worst Memory" he told her that he didn't need help from a Mudblood. I doubt that he had any feelings for her if he was mean enough to call her that. And if he did love her, he ruined any chance that he may have had with her (a very very very small chance) by calling her a Mudblood.

Oh, and thanks GryffindorGr for posting the audio clip. It's just struck me that I've never actually heard (as opposed to read) a JKR interview before! In fact, actually hearing it gives me the impression that she was responding to the Snape-falling-in-love comment from the internet questioner, rather than the redemptive-pattern comment from the interviewer (which she seems to be ignoring and talking over while she thinks what to say). That's the opposite impression to the one I got from the transcript.




You’re welcome. :) Hey, that’s exactly what I thought when I heard it. I got the feeling that she didn’t pay attention too much to what the interviewer had said about “redemptive pattern” and she focused more on the internet question on “will snape fall in love” and it does give off a different meaning.
And that this “falling in love” business may have to be something hugely significant in the end of the series?
For example, when she said, “Who on earth would want Snape in love with them?” and she laughs at this concept, could it be that if Snape falls in love with someone that they would be “cursed”? That that is the worst attention anyone could get? Sort of like “obsession” going to the dark side? Oh dear. I’m getting a bit too much here and my imagination is flying. I need solidarity here.
I do however wonder about Snape’s obsession with James and the marauders, as if he liked to follow them, but I don’t know about this obsession with Lily. In OotP, it never showed us about Lily/Snape connection, except when she tried to help him. But then again, JKR did say we’ll find out 2 things on Lily in OotP---which a lot of it was in Snape’s worse memory. So there might be a huge connection.

by Jen15poms
I think that Snape was jealous of James...not because James was with Lily, but because James was many things that Snape was not. Popular, good looking, etc.

I thought so too since Snape never puts down Lily to Harry, only talks about James.

I really didn't want to believe that Snape loving Lily was possible, but after considering several points, I find it highly likely. I think he did love Lily. He never insults her to Harry. He did, however, despise James, as we all know. He hates Harry because he's James' son. As to how we will learn this in book seven, I think that we'll see Snape sacrificing himself to save Harry, for Lily. I know, it's a horrible end for one of my favorite characters, and I would much prefer Snape loving nobody, or somebody else, but I simply can't ignore all the clues. *Sigh

Wow, the audio clip was interesting. I agree too that she was focused more on the "Snape in love" comment... ah well, only four years to go!

I never found Snape attractive until the films came out so I think most of this 'aww Snape's ok' stuff is really just ' Alan Rickman is so darn cool!'

Some people might like Snape simply because Rickman plays him, and although Rickman does have a few things going for him, Snape is just by himself way too awesome. His harsh sarcasm, dark tendancies and overall mysteriousness makes him a very interesting character by himself.

i don't think snape would ever go to the level of liking a mudblood

No way!!! Remember in the OotP in Snape's memory he hated her and called her a mudblood and hated her as much as James so no way!

No way!!! Remember in the OotP in Snape's memory he hated her and called her a mudblood and hated her as much as James so no way!
Just the same way Ron and Hermione "hate" each other sometimes?
He was a teenager, and he was obviously feeling inadequate. So as most young people will do when they don't know how to handle certain feelings they try to be very inconspicous by going the other way with words. I don't think he hated her as much as James. There's really no proof of that is there? I mean the focus seemed to be on James and the marauders. Plus with present day Snape, he always says mean things to Harry about his father, not once has he said anything about his mother to Harry.

All I know is that if JKR turns us around and says that he was, in fact, in love with James and was doing a sour grapes thing...I might end up curling up and dying inside and asking "Why IS it that all the guys I like turn out to be GAY!?!?!?!?!"

lol!!!

Now, when she said the hypothetical question "Who on earth would fall in love with Snape?" It felt like that she was feeding us a question that she had an answer to...

"Who would fall in love with Snape? Why, this person..."

Snape seems to be a character based on those children you see at school who is in all actuality the living, breathing, punch bag. Those kids that once they get older you tell yourself that they're used to the abuse and so there's no real point in standing up for them. Especially since any time you try to talk to them they push you away.

In the United States we had the Columbine shootings and those kids who brought in the guns had backgrounds similar to Snape's...they shot the kids who were mean to them, one of them shot a girl b/c she turned him down for a date.

So, it could be possible that Snape did have a thing for Lily, but it was a PRIVATE thing. Coming out in the open with it would be setting himself up for a vulnerable time. His love was based on "worshipping from afar".

For a woman to love Snape, she would have to delve deeply into his mind and heart (what is there) and constantly touch on anything good inside of him. Similarly, he would have to come to trust her so well that he could feel like he could open up to her. This could take a long long time...and not many women are up to such a task...

It would take a strong and patient woman...so who could love a man like Severus Snape???

I bet he did, It seemed that Lily was a very good looking, popular student at Hogwarts. He must have been very jealous of James. It might have been something like a crush though.

The only person who knows what runs through Snape's mind is Jk Rowling herself. We may come up with a dozen to million theories and in the end we're wrong. But it's fun to listen to everyone has to say

Although I'm not fond of the idea, I think if anything, it might be possible he had a crush on her but love her at one point... no I don't think he did. I just have never really liked the idea of Snape hating Harry b/c James got Lily and he didn't. To me it just seems like a bad idea. :(

Mabey he had feelings for her he didnt even relize

I still don't think you would call someone that you had a crush on a derogatory name like mudblood.

Could be, red fairy, maybe he liked her way before that time, so that later, he hated her for not paying attention to him or w/e.

We have a few quotes that JKR has made about Snape.

The Connection 12 October 1999
What about Snape?
Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I’ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I’m not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I’d rather people read it.
One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
(JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.
I think the above statement just means that Snape is going to be key to LV's downfall. Perhaps even dying to save Harry.


BBC News June 19, 2003 Jeremy Paxman
JEREMY PAXMAN: Are we going to discover anything more about Snape ?

JK ROWLING: Yes.

JEREMY PAXMAN: And Harry's mother? Did he have a crush on Harry's mother or unrequited love or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: Hence his animosity to Harry?

JEREMY PAXMAN: Yes.

JK ROWLING: You speculate?

JEREMY PAXMAN: I speculate, yes, I'm just asking whether you can tell us.

JK ROWLING: No I can't tell you. But you do find out a lot more about Snape and quite a lot more about him actually.
I think the above means that we do find out a lot about Snape. He's an ex-DE and a spy for the Order and we also have the pensieve scenes.

There's nothing to support Snape loving Lily in what we see so far. Being hung upside so everyone sees your dirty underwear (and maybe more since the scene was interrupted), can certainly qualify as a bad memory.

Whereas being sent to the shack would be a bad memory, but nothing happened to Snape to harm him.

The books are about Harry and his friends, it complicates thing to start soap opera relationships in the older generation.

The books are about Harry and his friends, it complicates thing to start soap opera relationships in the older generation.

I agree!! And now we have Lupin thrown into the mix. You would begin to think that Lily was the only girl at Hogwarts at the time.

Like I said before, I'm not fond of the idea, it could be possible but I'd rather not see it.

Snape was just a big giant nerd..... I think Lily was generally popular..... it just doesn't happen in the social structure of teenagers!!!!! Even if he did have a crush - Lily never knew about it.... makes you feel kind of sorry for Snape though, huh???

Snape was just a big giant nerd..... I think Lily was generally popular..... it just doesn't happen in the social structure of teenagers!!!!! Even if he did have a crush - Lily never knew about it.... makes you feel kind of sorry for Snape though, huh???

Certainly does, and he was came from an abusive home too. But I still don't like him.

I agree that there is little evidence to support Snape loving Lily, but it would not surprise me if something about Lily and Snape comes out in book 7. Remember Lupin said in POA that Lily had a way to see into a person? Perhaps she, like Dumbledore, saw something in Snape that others could not... hmmm

I agree that there is little evidence to support Snape loving Lily, but it would not surprise me if something about Lily and Snape comes out in book 7. Remember Lupin said in POA that Lily had a way to see into a person? Perhaps she, like Dumbledore, saw something in Snape that others could not... hmmm


It would put an interesting twist on things... again, I eagerly await book 6 and 7....

JKR - I can only hope you are writing day and night!!!!

Snape was just a big giant nerd..... I think Lily was generally popular..... it just doesn't happen in the social structure of teenagers!!!!!
Well if Snape did love Lily it would be like a classic case of cruel high school society. The computer nerd loves the cheerleader but the football jock has already laid a claim to her. Years later we come back to see the nerd who's now a gazillionaire and dating some super model while the cheerleader and the jock are married and miserable. Or maybe we had a circumstance where the nerd fall for the popular pretty girl who's dating the jock but realizes what a scum bag he and dumps her boyfriend for the nerd and they go to prom and live happily ever after. Since we know that, obviously the latter didn't happen this all applies a little bit more to the first but not entirely. Snape loved Lily never got her but instead married James, Snape got a job at Hogwarts and earned himself some degree of respect maybe even prestige while James and Lily were murdered but Snape is still no better off with his greasy hair and oily skin.

So supposing that Snape did love Lily I doubt his feelings were reciprocated and he blew his hot at having a chance with Lily long before Lily came to his resuce in their fifth year in my opinion. I mean James was a jerk but he had a whole lot more going for him than Snape did. If it came down to a draw between Snape and James it's not hard to figure out who'd she's most likely pick.

If anything I think there's a better chance that Remus loved or atleast cared for Lily deeply, more so than Snape ever did. To Snape's credit the only kindness that I think he ever gave to Harry was to refrain from mentioning Lily in front of Harry becasue I don't think that he's ever mentioned her to Harry at all. If Snape has never mentioned Lily I think it has less to do with the idea that he may have loved her than it has to do with the fact that Lily was practically a saint and atleast treated him like a normal human being.

Erm...who ever said that Lily was popular? Not that I am in any way proposing that she was not very well liked, but it seems that she may have been a bit like Hermione minus the Golden Trio. She was extremely intelligent, as was Severus.

I certainly don't believe that they had a love affair of any kind (can you say 'children'?), however, I believe that Snape being in love with her is highly likely, as is a 'secret friendship' of sorts. I think that perhaps they met in the begining of school, when Lily was new to the wizarding world and the like.

As for those who say that there's no evidence that Snape loved Lily:

A) He never insults Lily to Harry's face. You might argue that this is due to his great respect for mothers in general, but I highly doubt that.

B) Why on earth would he have chosen the pond-scene for his worst memory? I would think that, if it had to do with the humiliation and pain caused by the maurauders, he would have chosen (and JKR too) something related to the whomping willow incident. What else is in this scene? Lily sticking up for Snape, Snape calling her a mudblood, and Lily looking "surprised". Hmmm...let's think about this for a moment.... You could easily say that Snape went into school hating muggle-borns, and that may not be far from the truth, but I don't think he went into school insulting Lily. Also, I doubt that this is the first time she has heard this insult, considering that she likely shared Hogwarts with the likes of Malfoy, Belatrix, Lestrange, Rosier, Wilkes, and the like. So, why would she have been surprised to hear it from Snape if Snape called her such all the time? Again, think about that for a moment....

C) Okay...I lost my train of thought...but still! As much as I'd hate to see it (being the Snape-lover that I am) I have to say that this seems very likely on JKR's end. *sigh*

I don't think he did. Serioulsy think about him marrying Lily. Harry would look like a mini Snape with green eyes. Eww

Snape did not love Lilly! And he was mean to James before James and Lily got together, therefore he would not be jelous of James and that means that Lilly was not the reason for Snape to be mean to James. I also would like to add that the theory of Snape liking Lilly could not be true, it just doesn't fit.

He hated James, he didn't hate Lily. So he insults James to Harry's face. He doesn't insult Lily. Besides it is politcally incorrect to call people mudbloods, so he isn't going to repeat his opinion of her to Harry (he is a teacher after all). We have no idea what he currently thinks about blood purity. We just know he is working for the Order and is an ex-DE. Some ideas die hard.

I used to live in the Deep South of the US. I was born in NY and have typical New Yorker attitudes about race and equality. I know I am inviting a flame war here, but I was appalled at the level of residual racial prejudice. Ok Ok, the younger generation has managed to learn different attitudes (please don't flame me). But that still left a large portion of the population with appalling attitudes.

I don't see wizards relinquishing their prejudices quickly either.

When you think about all the inter-house fueds, those between Slytherin and Griffindor seem to ne the most prominent. Think about Proff.McGonagall and Proff. Snape..
So how could Snape (in his youth being more immature) have liked some one from Gryffindor? I might be wrong though...

I dont think so because he called her a mudblood In OotP

but how do we know that lily was in gryffindor? or am i just being stupid again and need to read the other books? for all we know lilly could have been in ravenclaw, or hufflepuff, although ravenclaw seems the more likley, she was smart right?

but how do we know that lily was in gryffindor? or am i just being stupid again and need to read the other books? for all we know lilly could have been in ravenclaw, or hufflepuff, although ravenclaw seems the more likley, she was smart right?

JKR said they were all in Gryffindor.

He hated James, he didn't hate Lily. So he insults James to Harry's face. He doesn't insult Lily. Besides it is politcally incorrect to call people mudbloods, so he isn't going to repeat his opinion of her to Harry (he is a teacher after all). We have no idea what he currently thinks about blood purity. We just know he is working for the Order and is an ex-DE. Some ideas die hard.

I used to live in the Deep South of the US. I was born in NY and have typical New Yorker attitudes about race and equality. I know I am inviting a flame war here, but I was appalled at the level of residual racial prejudice. Ok Ok, the younger generation has managed to learn different attitudes (please don't flame me). But that still left a large portion of the population with appalling attitudes.

I don't see wizards relinquishing their prejudices quickly either.


He does insult Lily..He called her a mudblood. I think that he was jealous of James because he was so good at Quidditch ..etc.. but he didn't hate Lily as much- though it is safe to say he hated all the Gryffindors..

He does insult Lily..He called her a mudblood. I think that he was jealous of James because he was so good at Quidditch ..etc.. but he didn't hate Lily as much- though it is safe to say he hated all the Gryffindors..

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to how Snape talks about James or Lily to Harry's face. I know he called her a mudblood at school. We just haven't heard him say much about her in the present.

I said this on another post but nobody commented on it, I'll copy and paste what I said...

Some people think, including me, that one other reason Snape hated James was beause Snape liked Lily, but she liked James, and they got married. In book 5, when Harry is in the Penseive, we see a bad memory of Snape's. James is torturing Snape. Snape called Lily a mudblood. Now here I think is the clue. James always messed up his hair. Lily always foughtmwith Lily, from what we know. He eventually dated Lily and they got married. Can you think about another group of friends that resemble this? Draco always calls Hermione a mudblood. After Griffindor won the Quidditch cup, Harry Hermione and Ron were sitting under the same tree as Harry's dad bak in the Marauders time. Ron messed up his hair when he was telling them the story of the match. Now, I know my thoughts are all jumbled up, but can you figure out what I'm trying to get out here? I know this can only be true if Snape liked Lily, but think about it, it makes sense. If Snape liked Lily back in the Marauders time, does this mean that Malfoy likes Hermione now? It could. Of course, she doesn't like him back, but maybe he does like her. This could also mean that Hermione and Ron will end up together.

You might have to read this again to understand what I am trying to say, and once again, I'm sorry that all my thoughts are jumbled up, but it was kind of hard to put them all together and have them make sense. Think about it...

I don't think he loved Lily...he called her mudblood and doesn't seem her type at all.

I don't think he loved Lily...he called her mudblood and doesn't seem her type at all.Argh! Look, chaps, the theory is that Snape loved Lily (probably hopelessly). Whether or not she had any interest in him (probably not) is a completely separate question to theorise about.

I don't think that Snape was in love with Lily, rather I think he was jealous of what James & Lily had as a couple. In his eyes, James always came out the winner, including the fact that he got himself a girl. I can't see Snape specifically liking Lily, but I can see him being hateful about the very idea that James had a relationship that led to marriage and he didn't. Their happiness together would have bothered him, because probably deep down Snape is like anyone else, wanting to find someone to share love with.

I guess Snape could have had a thing for Lily but knew it would never happen so he resented her, but I doubt it. Hey, you never know though. ;)

Just a thought - some people have said that Snape's Worse Memory was Snape's Worse Memory because once he called Lily a mudblood he relised that he would never win her over. Well, if Snape was in love with Lily, wouldn't his worse memory had been finding out that Lily was dating or got married to that "arrogant, bullying toerag" James Potter? I mean, finding out someone will never like you is one thing, but for that person to then marry someone she once hated as much as she hated you (she said that they were both as bad as eachother)...

Anyway, I think that Snape had thought very highly of Lily because she saw James for what he really was (even if he did call her a mudblood - c'mon, he's in Slytherin, imagine what the other Slytherins would've been like. He couldn't exactly thank Lily in front of all those people, otherwise he'd have had the other Slytherins to answer to) and maybe he had a crush on her and like Elf said, may have resented what Lily and James had (especially when he once thought that she hated James as much as he did) but I don't think he was in love with her, not to the point that he would carry on his jealousy to Harry, who has his mother's eyes. Not because it isn't possible, it is, and I wouldn't have a problem if it is the case, but it just seems a little... well... predictable, especially for JKR. I've been thinking that Snape could've been in love with Lily since POA, so it just seems a bit expected.

Also, I don't think the fact that he never insults Lily to Harry means much. His problem was with James, not Lily. And I've never seen him insult Pettigrew, but that doesn't mean he loved him.
:p

James and Lily only went out in their 7th year. Lily was available for 6 years to Snape but he didn't show any signs of interest. He also called her a mudblood when she stood up for him. I don't think he loved. He was just a bitter kid. He could have been jealous when they started going out in their 7th year. He would have been jealous because he would want a girl friend too.

Since he called her a mudblood - I doubt it

You guys, the mudblood comment is probably the WORST argument for why Snape wasn't in love with Lily.

I'll post what I said earlier about this rather than rehashing it all:

Why do you guys think that calling someone a mudblood means you can't be in love with them? That seems to be a big reason people give in support of the idea that Snape didn't love Lily, but I disagree wholly, deeply, strenuously on that point.

Have any of you have seen the movie A Bronx Tale directed by Robert DeNiro? I raise it b/c it's relatively modern and has a great scene where the white kid who has grown up in a tough, racist Italian neighborhood lashes out at a black girl he really truly cares about and calls her the N word, even though he's in love with her. It's a good example of a simple truth that you can probably find in countless other films and books:

sometimes, we can be the most cruel to people we love. We are most vulnerable and at risk with people we love, and we feel positive as well as negative emotions more stongly with them.

So, to me, the idea that Snape couldn't love Lily and still call her a mudblood in a moment of extreme stress and humiliation is just crazy. People can do all sorts of terrible things when they love someone, especially if they aren't exactly skilled in dealing with their feelings, and it seems likely Snape was not.

Yeah, I really hate this idea. It's one of the cheesiest literary explanations out there: "I'm mean because I was in love with your mom...." There's no evidence that Snape wasn't in love with Lily, and there's not much against it either. Really, the first full scene with Lily-as-a-girl or Snape-as-a-boy is in "Snape's Worst Memory," so we don't really know anything about their relationship. Lily struck me as the kind of girl who would stand up for anyone in trouble, and Snape as the kind of guy who would spurn any offers to help. Now, if Lily had started throwing hexes at James, or taken 50 points from Gryffindor, he may have come around. I think that Snape may have respected Lily (as a competitor, if nothing else), but he probably lost all respect for her when she started dating that James punk. Or, he may have just written her off as a Mudblood and not thought of her very much at all, just been happy that James couldn't get everything! Gaa, if it turns out that Snape went to join Voldemort's ranks because Lily and James got married/engaged...I don't know what I'll do.

Just to sum up, I really, really hope we never hear anything like "oh, yeah, Snape had a serious crush on Lily..." or "so did Lupin" or "all the guys wanted to date your mother, and all the girls wanted to be her." Gag. Icky romance should be kept to a minimum.

Not to insult all you nice people who think this might happen; it's happened often enough in literature and movies that there is a distinct possibility of it happening here. I just hate this device with a passion.

-Dr. Dementor

i think that there might be a possibility that snape liked lily, he was jealous of everything that james did, and that could of come from being jealous of him because he liked his girlfriend, but it is all just speculation. i don't think we are going to find out much about the maurader era romances though

I don't think that Snape was in love with Lily, rather I think he was jealous of what James & Lily had as a couple. In his eyes, James always came out the winner, including the fact that he got himself a girl. I can't see Snape specifically liking Lily, but I can see him being hateful about the very idea that James had a relationship that led to marriage and he didn't. Their happiness together would have bothered him, because probably deep down Snape is like anyone else, wanting to find someone to share love with.

This quote all makes perfect sense and I really haven't made up my mind one way or another, although, to add to the argument that Snape DID care for Lily, I found something that ties in with something JKR said on her website. She was asked a question regarding if "Snape would ever find love". JKR laughed and said who want to love him, but she also went on and said she was SHOCKED that the question was asked, and that we would find out why eventually. Perhaps she was so shocked because, NO, Snape won't find love, but we will hear the story of someone that Snape did love very much -- Lily -- yet the love wasn't returned.

As for the fact that Snape called Lily a mudblood.... well, let me just say that that does NOT necessarily mean anything, as a matter of fact, for anyone who has spent a lot of time around kids, it could mean just the opposite. I used to teach, and many boys are deliberately cruel to girls they fancy. As a teenager, sometimes kids don't always distinguish between good and bad attention, and just see attention as being noticed one way or another.

Snape loved lily?
Have you read the chapter 28 of HP5 ??? (i don't save if the chapter is the god because i have just the french edition) "the worse memory of snape"

Honestly I think Harry has far too much to deal with already without finding out that Snape had the hots for his mom. If anything would push Harry over the deep end at this point, that would probably it! ;)

I just don't think it's realistic for this to factor into the plot. First of all, these books were written with children as the target audience and I can't see JKR turning them into a soap opera.

Second of all, I think these theories that everyone and their niffler were in love with Lily trivialize her character. Supposedly we'll find out a lot more about her character and I don't think JKR is going waste time on some sappy revelation that Snape or Lupin or anyone else was pining away after her. Her role in the coming books is going to be huge because it will explain exactly what happened that fateful night in Godric's Hollow.

Look at it this way--James has already played a big role through the back history of the Marauders and through the establishment of Harry's patronus. I think Lily's part is coming up and it will far surpass any notions of a spurned romance.

Anyway, for poor Harry to picture Snape salivating over his mom, it would be equivalent to the Cruciatus Curse! :p

Hmmm... I've always wondered this myself. If any of you have ever watched the cartoon "Hey Arnold" (it's popular on Nickolodeon in the US) you kind of might understand my comparrison. See, in the cartoon... Helga is in love with Arnold but she's constantly mean to him to try and cover it up. Arnold kind of just puts up with it but still helps Helga when she needs to be helped. I thought of Snape as Helga and Lily as Arnold. Anyone agree?


I just don't think it's realistic for this to factor into the plot. First of all, these books were written with children as the target audience and I can't see JKR turning them into a soap opera.


I STRONGLY disagree with that comment. I mean, first Harry's parents are killed by LV, then Harry is sent to live with this dysfunctional family and at age 10 or 11 is told he's a wizard and is sent to live and go to school at this school of withcraft, then he finds out that LV is out to kill him all the time while dealing with a teacher that hates him. THEN he finds out that he has a Godfather... but he's a murderer. THEN he finds out that he ISNT a murderer and is a good guy and that he can live with him, ONLY to find out that he CANT live with him because they can't prove his innocesence. Then a few books later he's almost kicked out of school, his Godfather dies and he finds out he's either going to have to murder someone or be murdered..... IF THIS ISN'T SOAP OPERA MATERIAL, HECK IF I KNOW WHAT I IS. LOL, IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF PORT CHARLES

Also, I don't think Snape secretly being in love with Lily is such a bad idea. It would explain why Snape wants to protect Harry so much... because he was Lily's child. It also provides a bit more insight as to why he dislikes harry... he reminds him too much of the man that married the only women he loved...and I don't think it's too "mature" for the audiance that likes HP... i mean, if they can deal with murder and such, I think an old crush won't hurt a bit.

original post by Liv4Sirius
I STRONGLY disagree with that comment. I mean, first Harry's parents are killed by LV, then Harry is sent to live with this dysfunctional family and at age 10 or 11 is told he's a wizard and is sent to live and go to school at this school of withcraft, then he finds out that LV is out to kill him all the time while dealing with a teacher that hates him. THEN he finds out that he has a Godfather... but he's a murderer. THEN he finds out that he ISNT a murderer and is a good guy and that he can live with him, ONLY to find out that he CANT live with him because they can't prove his innocesence. Then a few books later he's almost kicked out of school, his Godfather dies and he finds out he's either going to have to murder someone or be murdered.....

While it's certainly your right to disagree, all the examples you are mentioning have nothing to do with love triangles and sappy romance. Sure there are highly dramatic elements to the story, but I think to compare it to a soap opera insults these well written stories. We haven't seen JKR write anything that melodramatic so far and I doubt we will. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I am saying that I really have my doubts.

I just happen to think that there are enough other plotlines to tie up that she won't spend time on frivolous things like Snape's teenage crushes. Her books have a very wide appeal (in both age and taste) and I think venturing into too many romantic ideas might alienate many of her readers who aren't interested in that kind of thing. But who knows?

I'm also not saying that I wouldn't enjoy it if she introduced an idea like this, because personally I'm a sucker for a little sap in a story, but I just have a feeling that's not what we're in for. :)

IF THIS ISN'T SOAP OPERA MATERIAL, HECK IF I KNOW WHAT I IS
Nah, if it was a soap opera it would be far more complicated and implausible than that. I mean, by now Harry would have found at least six long-lost relatives and gone through a dozen romances and breakups. One godfather and a crying girlfriend just doesn't cut the soap opera mustard, does it. :)

[QUOTE=Elf]I just happen to think that there are enough other plotlines to tie up that she won't spend time on frivolous things like Snape's teenage crushes. Her books have a very wide appeal (in both age and taste) and I think venturing into too many romantic ideas might alienate many of her readers who aren't interested in that kind of thing. But who knows?
QUOTE]

The only reason I think it's a plausible idea is that it could resolve the hyped up mystery of why Snape went DE and then switched sides WITHOUT introducing any new characters and WITH working within the framework she's already laid. [and it would fit nicely with her "who would want Snape in love with them" comment]

I'm not convinced it will happen, but I do disagree strongly with a lot of the reasons put forth for why people think it won't (its too soap opera, too cliche, Snape called her a mudblood). I don't find most of those reasons to be well-thought-out or supported by the books, and it reminds me that these forums are open to people of all ages.

As for the soap opera comment - just remember how much JKR loves Jane Austen, is all I have to say. Lots of love torn asunder in there.

But, as someone said, it also doesn't have to be romantic love. I could imagine Lily as having been one of the few people to be nice to Snape, and after Lucius and the other older Slytherins left, the suggestion is that he had few friends at Hogwarts. If she was the closest thing to a real friend he ever had, then the success and failure of that relationship could have molded a lot of his decisions. Look at how important Sirius' friendships were and what he did as a result of them.

Well snape does hate mudbloods so I can't see that relationship lasting very long ;)

Of course he loved Lily

If Snape's attitude has anything to do with a spurned romance, I prefer the theory that has been proposed suggesting it was Snape whom Bertha Jorkins caught kissing Florence behind the greenhouses.

A couple of reasons I lean more to this theory than the Snape loved Lily theory are as follows...

Firstly, Dumbledore seems very sad when we hear his words to Bertha in the penseive. He acts as though Bertha messed up something that might have changed someone's life for the better.

Secondly, Bertha was upset that the person she yapped about had hexed her. We know from Sirius and Lupin's comments about Snape's worst memory in the penseive that Snape in fact used to hex James, just as much as James hexed him. The word "hex' caught my eye here because we know it is something Snape wouldn't hesitate to do.

Thirdly, this scenario would need very little explaining. It is an isolated incident that occured years ago and made a person (perhaps Snape) bitter. It would require far less time and explanation than Snape being in love with Harry's mother. That would just open up a huge emotional plotline for Harry, which I don't know that there is time for.

I do maintain however that Snape was very jealous of James & Lily's relationship, not for who was in it, but for the simple fact that they enjoyed and shared something he had been deprived of.

While it's certainly your right to disagree, all the examples you are mentioning have nothing to do with love triangles and sappy romance. Sure there are highly dramatic elements to the story, but I think to compare it to a soap opera insults these well written stories. We haven't seen JKR write anything that melodramatic so far and I doubt we will. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I am saying that I really have my doubts.



My examples weren't really about the love triangles so much as they were about it's comparison to a soap opera. And I don't think it's an insult at all, I mean, soap operas have tons of fan sites with millions of devoted fans just like HP, and sure they are very different but they are still kind of the same. Also, I think the lack of any sort of love interest for people other than Harry and Cho and Hermione and Krum is kind of disappointing. I mean, true, the stories arent about love, but it makes it a bit more interesting. I still think you have a good point too, though.

Sorry I've never posted here before. :blush:

But if Snape loved Lily why would he call her a "mudblood"

But maybe she loved him too. May be in the sixth book...

"Potter" said Snape who looked as though he had someting on his mind. "Theres something you should know, about your mom and I. We where an idol and I hate to say it but...I'm am your daddy"

jk...god that would crack me up. I think the Mud Blood was ust a cover up. All they he may of known he would have never been able to have her. Tom Riddle is The Half Blood Prince.

Sorry I've never posted here before. :blush:

But if Snape loved Lily why would he call her a "mudblood"

Because teenage boys aren't always the most *er* direct when it comes to showing their feelings. Think of school days and recess... the boys that liked the girls would usually pick on them. It gains them ATTENTION. And, like someone once said (and yeesh, I forget who)..."I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right". Attention is attention in that it means you know the other person is alive.

Or, here's another idea (Mind you, I have no idea if Snape loved Lily and wouldn't venture a guess just yet, although the comment I posted earlier with the quote from JKR about Snape and love makes me wonder)....but... picture this.... Snape as a teenager. He was described as having greasy hair, rather unpopular, a loner, wore graying underwear, and was always picked on. Then you have someone like Lily who has one of the most popular guys in school after her, and probably many others we don't yet know of, if Snape did like her, he probably figured he had NO CHANCE with her. So, in order to hide his feelings, or try to protect himself, he insults her. Is that a smart thing? Of course not. But, young teens in "love" aren't known for their amazing maturity. :rotfl:

My big worry is that I would have expected Rowling to use the worst memory to give us a hint about Snape liking Lily. However, it's not like she's never given us lots of red herrings and misleading clues, is it?

I can see Snape being this bitter, picked on kid who either had a crush on Lily or who, like Lupin seemed to in the movie, had a kind of love and respect for her that never had a chance to grow into something romantic.

Anyhow, whatever his feelings, I can see a teenage Snape wishing he could get to know her better and maybe daydreaming about the time he would finally get a chance to impress her, ask her out, and so on.

Then, he gets attacked by James, publically humiliated, and rescued by a girl - and not just any girl, this girl. He'd be ready to die.

Oh, and then evil James (evil to Snape, at least), uses this to try and get Lily to go out with him!

I'm pretty sure that, if that part meant anything to Snape, it meant something a lot uglier than it did to James or Lily. For James, this is a rather incompotent attempt to ask Lily out that's trying to pass itself off as smooth. He's just thinking that he'd do just about anything Lily asked him to (or maybe just anything that wasn't too horribly uncool) if she'd go out with him.

For Lily, this is stupid. She's asked him to act like a decent human being, and he's trying to negotiate the terms. That's not acting like a decent human being, which is the whole reason she won't go out with him.

I think Snape, if he was paying attention at all, saw something much uglier. It could come in two ways.

It could be that Snape has been used as a bargaining chip in his parents' marriage. I can see his dad getting after him, his mother trying to intervene, and his father then getting after her saying that if she would just do something or not do something, then he wouldn't get after Snape in the first place. I can see him also getting after Snape and saying that if he weren't so weak as to need his mother's help, then she wouldn't be in trouble.

It could also be that Snape simply sees a straightforward attempt at coercion, that he sees James as trying to coerce Lily for something more degrading than a simple date (even Harry wondered if James hadn't somehow forced Lily to marry him after seeing this scene).

If either of those two things are happening, he's going to come out yelling that he doesn't need Lily's help and try and break any idea that he can be used as a bargaining chip against her.

It could also be that he didn't hear any of it or it wasn't really registering (he did have some problems of his own to deal with) and he's just dealing with the humiliation of being beaten up and being saved by a girl (maybe the girl he's been daydreaming about impressing).

He angrily yells a word he's heard used a thousand times by the kids in his House and probably in his own home. He doesn't even think about it. It just comes.

Maybe he realizes as soon as he sees the look on her face. Maybe it doesn't hit him till he's back in the Slytherin dungeon or some private place where the horror can hit him full force and he thinks WHAT HAVE I DONE!!?

Or that's my guess.

I don't know if Snape being in love with Lily is going to turn out to be true, but it did occur to me when I was reading the books. I agree that it would explain a lot. Lily's coming to Snape's defense reminds me of Lupin saying that Lily could see the good in people, even when they couldn't see good in themselves; maybe Lupin was including Snape in that (as well as including himself). Maybe Lily had also been kind to Snape in the past, before the "mudblood" scene. Who knows -- maybe Snape had gotten the wrong idea from this & had asked her out, and she rejected him (probably very kindly, but that usually doesn't make it any easier); maybe that's partly why he's mad enough to call her a mudblood. Considering what a miserable, brooding person he is, I don't even think this is "soap opera"-ish! it just would explain some of the dynamics.

I also agree with the idea that JKR might have called the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" because he called Lily a mudblood and always regretted it. Like a lot of people have already posted, Snape must have had many additional memories of being teased by the Marauders -- so why is this one the "worst"? I think it makes sense that it's the worst because of Lily's involvement &/or Snape's own reaction to that.

Just my 2 cents!

I also agree with the idea that JKR might have called the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" because he called Lily a mudblood and always regretted it. Like a lot of people have already posted, Snape must have had many additional memories of being teased by the Marauders -- so why is this one the "worst"? I think it makes sense that it's the worst because of Lily's involvement &/or Snape's own reaction to that.


While I think this definitely could be a possibility, I have to say that if I was hung upsidedown and my dirty underwear was displayed to a laughing group of teenagers, I might consider it my worst memory, too. :) Talk about humiliating!

Snape probably hated muggleborns when he was a young man which would explain why he would join Voldemort. But then perhaps he saw the evilness of what was happening and sided with Dumbledore. He was never in love with Lily.

Yeah, i dont think that he was in love with Lily. He hated muggle borns too much.

I have a feeling he had a little bit of a crush on her, but I seriously doubt he was IN LOVE with her. I think he liked her just enough to intensify his hatred for James.

I don't think Snape loves anyone.


Nonsense. Snape loves ME!

No.. it is quite possible he liked Lily at first, but then disliked her for what she was. I think he liked Bellatirx really..

I don't think Snape loved Lily or anyone else for that matter. He strikes me as being a cold person incapable of any normal feelings of affectionate or love. He may have developed an obsession with someone in his past (possibly Lily), but once his feelings weren't returned he began to see them as inferior and unworthy of his "love". I could easily see him as a stalker.

I think there may be some infatuation, or crush on the part of Snape. Whether or not Lily is the young girl in Snape's memory is irrrellevant. Snape is interested in Lily while at Hogwarts. I think his calling her a Mudblood is out of embarrassment during the Pensieve incident in OoTP.


:agree: :agree: :tu: .

I think it's fun to guess at whether or not Snape loved Lilly. I agree with the post above about Snape not being in love but rather being obsessed. It would certainly fit the bit of personality we got to see of him in the pensieve. Totally into his test paper, not even noticing the beautiful day. Obsessing over the details.

I can't find my old post. Anyway, I'll just restate that I disagree mightily with this theory. His calling her a mudblood was out of pride. There was no way he was going to thank this girl for rescuing him. And although some teens to bug girls they like, I would expect Snape to be above that. He would probably just ignore them, or at least just force himself out of a crush with someone that he has no chance with. I agree that Snape being in love with Lily would be far too cliche, that "unrequited love" thing. Lily probably has half of the boys in Hogwarts drooling after her, and I would hope that Snape is more intelligent than to follow along.

However, I don't agree with the theory that Snape has never loved anyone. I've ranted about it far too much on other threads to repeat it here, but he's not heartless. He doesn't go around giving random people hugs, sure, but just because we've never seen him be openly loving toward someone doesn't mean that it isn't there. Snape would need someone that really understands him, and although many people think that Lily is almost perfect in her understanding of everyone, I think that her short temper would get in the way of her understanding Snape's complicated emotions.

I agree that Snape being in love with Lily would be far too cliche, that "unrequited love" thing. Lily probably has half of the boys in Hogwarts drooling after her, and I would hope that Snape is more intelligent than to follow along.


Unless he gets a good dose of self loathing for liking her like everyone else.

Unless he gets a good dose of self loathing for liking her like everyone else.


. . . I don't understand how this would support the theory. . .?

I just mean he's a teenager dealing with the same hormones and changes as everyone else. I think you're right that he would choose not to fall in love with her just like everyone else, but he is human. Well maybe he finds himself liking her and then hating himself for it.

I think you're right that he would choose not to fall in love with her just like everyone else, but he is human.
...being human doesn't immediately mean being in love with Lily.

Well maybe he finds himself liking her and then hating himself for it.

Maybe, but I would think that if he hated himself so much for liking her he would just try and detach himself from his crush. In fact, if liking Lily is grounds for self-hatred I'd think he would never even start liking her in the first place.

...being human doesn't immediately mean being in love with Lily.


You'd never guess that from some of the threads around here. Seems EVERYONE loved Lily!!! :rotfl: (Makes her sound a bit, uhhh, sleazy or something!) I'm just kidding of course, I just don't think that everyone loved Lily. I think James loved Lily, and Lily had friends. Not everyone loved her, though. :p

You'd never guess that from some of the threads around here. Seems EVERYONE loved Lily!!! (Makes her sound a bit, uhhh, sleazy or something!) I'm just kidding of course, I just don't think that everyone loved Lily. I think James loved Lily, and Lily had friends. Not everyone loved her, though.
I know, it's just that from the context of Dagmar's post it sounded like everyone was supposed to love Lily, but I know what you guys mean. Anyway...

well...snape seems tricky, so maybe calling lily a "mudblood" was a REALLY good cover up for secretly liking her, which seems POSSIBLE, but i'm not sure... cause snape is very weird, and you just don't know with him (or JKR for that matter:)) but if snape DID have a thing for lily, james getting her would just tip over snape's cup :lol:

well...snape seems tricky, so maybe calling lily a "mudblood" was a REALLY good cover up for secretly liking her, which seems POSSIBLE, but i'm not sure... cause snape is very weird, and you just don't know with him (or JKR for that matter)
Actually, picking on her because he likes her would be the most stereotypical 15-year-old way of dealing with it, which is exactly why I don't think he liked her. Teen boys are notorious for their weird ways of dealing with girls, and if a boy makes fun of a girl it's immediately assumed that he likes her. If he called her a mudblood, he meant it. He didn't say it because he was crushing on her-- that's way too immature for Snape. If he did like her, he would probably try to avoid coming face-to-face with her as much as possible and just admire her from afar. He wouldn't have tried to get her attention like that, because that's way too obvious, and he knows it.

i think that he could have fancied her for a while.she helped him when james made fun of him.if he ever did have feelings for her i think they probly stopped when james and lily started dating, it just made snape hate james that much more for getting the girl

Uh...I don't know.....uh....dunno....

Actually, even though I did poke a bit of fun at all the "so&so loved Lily" ideas, out of them all, I find Snape the most plausible. Teens do have the tendancy to pick on, tease relentlessly, etc, ones they have a crush on, especially an unreturned crush. And, as JKR said in an interview, Snape's 'love life' (my words) will have something to do with the last 2 books. Here's the real quote, although I'm sure you've all seen it before.

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.

(JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR - He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

Now, I'd say from that quote that it doesn't look like Snape will get a love interest in the last 2 books, which would lead one to believe that there is something in his past, related to love, which would play a large part in the story. If Snape had a crush on Lily, that could very well be what surprised JKR, that someone actually guessed.

I have another theory as to what that quote may refer to, but that doesn't fit into this thread, but for the sake of debate, it is very interesting.

If Snape had a crush on Lily, that could very well be what surprised JKR, that someone actually guessed.

You can't tell from that quote if Lily had anything to do with it. And indeed, I would think that JKR would avoid a Snape/Lily crush because that's what everyone's expecting. It's probably something that few people have caught *coughFlorencecough*. Since so many people think Snape was crushing on Lily it's probably not going to be true, since JK's very good at throwing out twists that almost no one expected. Who expected that Scabbers would be the long-lost Peter Pettigrew? Not many, if any at all. I think Snape was probably involved with someone else at one point that ended in distaster, but on the topic of Lily... maybe Lily was actually crushing on Snape? :rotfl:

You can't tell from that quote if Lily had anything to do with it. And indeed, I would think that JKR would avoid a Snape/Lily crush because that's what everyone's expecting. It's probably something that few people have caught *coughFlorencecough*. Since so many people think Snape was crushing on Lily it's probably not going to be true, since JK's very good at throwing out twists that almost no one expected. Who expected that Scabbers would be the long-lost Peter Pettigrew? Not many, if any at all. I think Snape was probably involved with someone else at one point that ended in distaster, but on the topic of Lily... maybe Lily was actually crushing on Snape? :rotfl:

That was actually just being thrown out as a possibility, not as fact, which is why I said "if". There are of course, other possibilities, like I mentioned. I actually have an idea about Snape and 'love', but it doesn't relate to Lily at all, so I haven't mentioned it in this thread, as it's not relevant. (I think it's in the why does DD trust snape thread, but not positive.) Either way, from that quote, it does seem that at one point or another, Snape did love someone. That's about all that can be deducted for sure, everything else is speculation, such as that is the nature of the entire divination forum. Now, Lily crushing on Snape....ewwwww :lol:

Now, Lily crushing on Snape....ewwwww


Why 'ewwwwww?" Snape is never "ewwww"! :rotfl:

Either way, from that quote, it does seem that at one point or another, Snape did love someone.

Of course. I would expect no less. She seemed genuinely surprised that anyone wondered if Snape had ever been in love... I'm not sure how important it would be to the entire story, but I'm sure if Snape was ever in love it would be important to some degree. Maybe it would force a little bit of sympathy/pity/something into Harry?

He could have.Maybe we should ask him. :rotfl:

I doubt that Lily had a crush on Snape, since it seemed like she didn't really know him during the Pensieve scene and was only sticking up for him because James was picking on him.

Snape... well, it's almost certain now that he loved someone at some point, and I sort of believe that it was Lily. Snape might have called Lily a 'mudblood' and he might have even meant it, but it might just be his way of trying to push the idea that he had a crush on someone who he deemed inferior to him out of his head. He might have wanted to cover up his crush by being cruel to her so that he wouldn't like her anymore for real.

Snape... well, it's almost certain now that he loved someone at some point, and I sort of believe that it was Lily. Snape might have called Lily a 'mudblood' and he might have even meant it, but it might just be his way of trying to push the idea that he had a crush on someone who he deemed inferior to him out of his head. He might have wanted to cover up his crush by being cruel to her so that he wouldn't like her anymore for real.


I really think that the mudblood comment has no basis for supporting this theory. It is the only piece of "evidence" that there is for this theory, for one, and it could be taken easily out of context. You could say that any mean comment directed at a teen is a sign of admiration. Draco's called Hermione a mudblood dozens of times, but does that mean that he likes her? No, and I don't think that it's true for Snape either. Snape called Lily a mudblood and he meant it-- there's no other meaning behind it.

If it is true, who cares? There's nothing NOW that Snape can do about it....I mean, Lilly's dead....or is she?!?!

If it is true, who cares? There's nothing NOW that Snape can do about it....I mean, Lilly's dead....or is she?!?!

. . . erm . . .

Well gee, the way that you say that it sounds like everything that happened in the past doesn't matter. I mean whether or not Snape DID love Lily wouldn't really make a huge impact on the books or anything, but it would tell us a lot about Snape, let us understand his character better, and his understand his past. Though of course I don't believe in the theory, but that's beside the point.

And yes, I believe that Lily is dead, since she appeared out of Voldemort's wand in Priori Incantatem and is hence very much a dead person, like Cedric and Bertha Jorkins.

I agree with Dark Penguin, I don't think Snape was in love with Lily. There is essentially no evidence in cannon for this. Plus, it wouldn't be the first time we were lead to assume something which seemed obvious, only for it to disproved (Snape-the-Bad-Guy, Harry related to Slytherin, James the-100%-perfect-w/o-any-flaws-Hero).

I tend to doubt Snape having any feelings for Lilly because of his behavior towards Harry. No matter how much he resent James, he would have seen Harry as Lilly's child too.

Why? Harry looks so much like James, it might be an uphill fight for a better balanced soul than Snape to see past the rest and focus on those Lily-like eyes.

Why? Harry looks so much like James, it might be an uphill fight for a better balanced soul than Snape to see past the rest and focus on those Lily-like eyes.

I'm confused. This isn't about Snape liking Harry, it's about Snape liking Lily-- which he doesn't, in my opinion.

I'd be surprised if Snape did have feelings for Lily. It would make the book a little to romancey and old-timey for my liking. Sort of that, "The only thing he wanted, he couldn't have."

He didn't appear to in the penseive, although he might've just been furious because Lily tried to help him, because she's muggleborn, making him look weak.

It seems improbable that Snape would care for such a do gooder little mudblood. Just as he despises Hermione even before she and Harry befriend each other, he is unlikely to have cared for Lily. He probably loathed it that she felt the need to intervene on his behalf.

by Starlight
I don't think Snape was in love with Lily. There is essentially no evidence in cannon for this. Plus, it wouldn't be the first time we were lead to assume something which seemed obvious, only for it to disproved (Snape-the-Bad-Guy, Harry related to Slytherin, James the-100%-perfect-w/o-any-flaws-Hero.)
The only indication that might present that he liked Lily (though not romantically) which was mentioned before is that he doesn’t speak bad against Lily, which Snape often does of James, reminding Harry constantly how James was a trouble maker (verbally less but assumed so), and how much he looks like him, which is a big indicator of his grudge. And from JKR’s words that she was surprised that some thought Snape liked Lily (which could be taken from different perspectives)
by Rene
I tend to doubt Snape having any feelings for Lilly because of his behavior towards Harry. No matter how much he resent James, he would have seen Harry as Lilly's child too.

Not really because he has saved Harry from scrapes before and that could be part of the reason of his “alliance”, and due to it being his duty as keeping DD’s trust intact. It’s just that Snape can’t get past the worst memory part of what happened to him. Obviously, since he hasn’t forgotten. Some memories can be buried or removed I think in the wizarding world. Why not? And if Snape can afford to take away this memory of Harry’s father since it was “past”, then why not proceed to do so if just to make his relationship with the boy who lived a little easier? From that experience, Lily may have defended him but she walked away because he was still being a prat to the end.

The only indication that might present that he liked Lily (though not romantically) which was mentioned before is that he doesn’t speak bad against Lily,
I wouldn't really think of Snape as one to insult someone else's mom. Insulting someone's mom is just on a whole different level than insulting someone's father, and I doubt that Snape would venture there. And it doesn't mean that he liked her jyst because he never insulted her as an adult, either.

didnt he call lily a filthy mugblood? Thats like throwing out the n word or anyother racial slur right? doesnt sound like love to me..sounds down right rude?

didnt he call lily a filthy mugblood? Thats like throwing out the n word or anyother racial slur right? doesnt sound like love to me..sounds down right rude?

Rather than re-hashing my whole argument, here's the link to exactly how and why he could call her that and still be in love with her:

Earlier post in this thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1095326#post1095326)

Rather than re-hashing my whole argument, here's the link to exactly how and why he could call her that and still be in love with her:


That doesn't necessarily prove that he loved her. sure, you can insult someone that you love, but that doesn't mean that you love everyone you insult, now does it? Young teens are unfortunately nutorious for being mean to those that they care for, but there's always the chance that Snape actually meant what he said.

I believe that Snape really did love Lily-even though he did call her a mudblood. Maybe he just did want to show his true feelingsto Lily or something. I mean James was mean and obnoxious at the age of 15 but wasn't sirius even more so. Sirius was..well I hate to critisize the dead but he was a jerk!He was beyond James or in the same league as him buut Snape always hated James more for some reason. You may argue that Snape was jealous of James because of Quidditch. This may be true in the beginning but maybe not later on. So I think that Snape loved Lily but couldn't bring himself to say it so James did and he got Lily. Perhaps that is why Snape hates James so much.James had saved Snape-that should have formed some kind of bond between them but Snape still loathed James. Why? Because he wanted Lily and James got her first.

I agree. He was intensely jealous of James and it may have been because James could have had any girl he wanted. Even though Snape called her a bad name while he was being humiliated, I think it's possible he may have had feelings for her. If you had a crush on someone would you want them to see you in that kind of position?

I think that Snape could have had a crush on Lily. I mean, it's normal to like somebody and deny it around people, especially around people you don't like. And in some cases, calling the person you have a crush on names could, in some ways, kind of be a form of flirting and teasing. That's the way I see it. So in this case, Snape could have had a crush on Lily, and probably called her a mudblood in possibility of getting her to somehow like him back. I could be wrong because Lily was obviously offended by being called a mudblood by Snape.

There could be a possibility that Snape called Lily a mudblood because of the fact that he knew that James liked Lily and that he hated James with a passion. Snape probably figured that if he called Lily a mudblood, it would somehow make James feel a little jealous and upset about it, and I guess Snape wanted to make James feel like he (Snape) was intimidating or something. So, in other words, Snape could have just called Lily a mudblood so that James would get upset and everything.

I don't think Snape could have ever loved someone who brought him shame. And Lily was heavily involved in a shameful time of his life. His pride would demand that he hate her too.

I just really, really disagree with the mudblood comment. It could go either way-- he could have been a mislead teen and said it because he liked her, or he could have actually meant it-- that happens sometimes, you know. I think the comment should be counted void for use in this argument, since it can be taken either way and doesn't provide much proof on either end anyway.

He was beyond James or in the same league as him buut Snape always hated James more for some reason. You may argue that Snape was jealous of James because of Quidditch. This may be true in the beginning but maybe not later on. So I think that Snape loved Lily but couldn't bring himself to say it so James did and he got Lily.
Snape didn't hate James just because of Quidditch- it's far, far more complicated than that. The world revolves around James and Sirius-- everyone loves them, the girls, the teachers. They can get away with murder-- in fact, Sirius almost DOES get away with murder when he sends Snape to the willow. As far as we know, there were no serious repurcussions for that incident on the part of the lovely marauders. Being in Slyherin Snape was labeled as a Dark person the second the sorting hat claimed his house-- and after that, it was a fight to fit in with the only group he could, his own Slyherins. this meant being even more Dark to try and impress his housemates, which only made him more revolting to the others in the school.

James, though-- who doesn't love good ol' James? You may say that Snape did plenty of hexing himself, but James also retaliated and started some of the fights himself. Let's take Snape's worst memory-- Snape was walking towards the castle. Oh yes, tons of Dark magic there! But James and Sirius attack him anyway, even though he was doing absolutely nothing to evoke their wrath other than "existing". And what did he do when they called his name? He immediately jumped around and readied his wand "as if he had been expecting it". What does this tell us? The guy is always on the alert-- always tense, always nervous, always expecting someone to ambush him. He can't have a moment of peace when he's not completely alone-- as we can see his fears are not unfounded. He was making his way to the castle, annoying no one at all, and yet they stop him and pummel him anyway. They're doing everything in their power to enforce his fear that he's always vulnerable. James and Sirius are bullies-- they have made Severus' life hell on multiple occasions. Why shouldn't he hate them?

And then James has the nerve to go after Lily. Snape might have hated Lily a little less than most people-- I'm sure he knew, though didn't necessarily feel, that she was considered very pretty. And James, this arrogant little brat has the nerve to go after this girl that, as far as Snape is concerned, James doesn't deserve in the least.

James is a bully, James is arrogant-- but James is handsome, James is suave, James is a star athlete-- in other words, James is everything that Snape can never be. He has the girls, he has the looks, he has the fame. Almost everyone loves him and his friends-- when Harry asks the teachers what they thought of James when he was their student, what do they say? "He was wonderful!" "A star pupil!" "The nicest boy I've ever seen!" Snape undoubtedly had some flaws, but I'm sure he was a good student academically and was probably respectful towards his teachers. But everyone hates him anyway-- hates him, hates him hates him, and not with entirely good reason, either. They flock towards James who doesn't deserve half of his attention and leave Severus to choke on their dust.

It's not just Quidditch anymore.

James may have been Harry's father but he was definetly a bully. What I dont get is that everyone's always saying how James was a great person and that he was the best, but what exactly makes him so great? The way that he bulleys Snape? His arrogance? The way that he thinks he's the best? I don't know. JK never gave us any info on James' character. Maybe this was him (as a 15 year old. I mean he might have grown out of it, I suppose...)

doubt it.

I was unaware that Snape could feel emotions.

Everybody has emotions. Where did you get the idea he couldn't feel emotions?

[Anti- Dark Mark]

Could you please explain? I have no idea what you are talking about. I think snape can feel emotion because he can feel humiliation.

I was unaware that Snape could feel emotions.

:) He ain't Spock. We've seen him angry, which is an emotion.

That doesn't necessarily prove that he loved her. sure, you can insult someone that you love, but that doesn't mean that you love everyone you insult, now does it? Young teens are unfortunately nutorious for being mean to those that they care for, but there's always the chance that Snape actually meant what he said.

I don't offer it as proof he did love her, or if it read that way, I didn't mean it as proof he loved her. I'm really just arguing against the idea that you can't love someone you're cruel to - if you just pay attention to human behavior you'll see that saying something hurtful to someone doesn't mean you can't still be in love with them.

I think its possible Lily played an important positive role in Snape's life mainly because I think SOMEONE must have made a positive impact for him to turn away from the DEs. At this point, the canvas is wide open as to who exactly that person would be, so I think Lily is just a good a guess as anyone (although it could just as well be someone we haven't met or who has been mentioned only briefly).

I was unaware that Snape could feel emotions.

It always makes me squirm when people say that, because they're almost always people that haven't bothered to explore Snape's character and just hate him for the heck of it. Snape definitely can feel emotions. Not only the ones mentioned-- shame, humiliation, anger-- but I'm sure some kinder emotions too. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: just because Snape isn't a cute little cuddle-bear that goes around handing out candy and giving random people hugs DOESN'T meant that he has no heart. He's not Voldemort, for god's sake, he's just very picky in who he finds worthy of his attention.

Of course he can feel emotion. Snaape calling Lily "mud blood" was from emotion. A way to get back, indirectly, at Jame sif nothing else. His feelings towarsd Harry are related to haaving his own emotional issues with James during their youth.

look, if you ever look around any school you have been in you can see these guys. James is the high school quarterback. Snape is probably head of the debate team. The first picked on the other mercilessly....probably ccompounded by the whole pure blood thing.

but could snape love Lily....no...she is a mud blood.

I think the fact that Lily is muggleborn has nothing to do with anything. I think that Snape was one of those troubled teenagers who didn't want to show anyone his true self so he called Lily a mudblood. He didn't want Lily to know how he really felt.

look, if you ever look around any school you have been in you can see these guys. James is the high school quarterback. Snape is probably head of the debate team.
Snape would never do anything that requires so much social interaction as debate. :p

The first picked on the other mercilessly....probably ccompounded by the whole pure blood thing.

::cringe:: I don't think Snape WAS a pureblood, though. At Edinburgh someone asked JKR if Snape was a muggleborn and she said "No, muggleborns are almost never allowed to be Death Eaters, only on extremely special circumstances, so he's definitely no muggleborn... you get a bit of a clue of his heritage there..." but she left it open-ended. She didn't come right out and say he was pure, which she probably would have done if he IS pure because it seems like the most obvious situation, doesn't it? I think he's half, personally.

but could snape love Lily....no...she is a mud blood.

I don't even know if that would matter. Especially if Snape is half-blood himself, being a muggleborn might not even mean that much... admittedly it did when he was a Death Eater, but that's another story. Calling her a mudblood was probably the first thing that popped into his mind and he lashed out desperately to try and shoe everyone away-- as they say, a caged, injured animal is far more dangerous than a healthy one. The comment of being a mudblood was probably not as important as the message behind it: "I hate you and don't want you to ever, ever help me again."

I'm sorry but I just do think Snape is pure blood. head of Slytherin, DE. DE spy for the order. Why this? Would LV have ever trusted fully a non-pureblood DE. Only in exceptional circumstances would a DE be unpure. If this blood thing is based upon the Nazi theories-idea as has been suggested. There is absolutely no way a DE would not be pure unless he was "in control".

Snape reiterates this predisposition towards purity: Hernione comes to mind as does his treatment of Neville (in reverse). Frankly, I see Snape's feelings towards James (if he was pureblood) and Sirius (who was) to be further compounded by their hanging about with inferiors.

I just can not see him in love with Lily. This is also because I think he was much more involved with the "fatefull night" then we know right now. Now Peter in love with Lily? Hmmm.

I doubt it, but I suppose its possible. It would explain a lot...

I'm sorry but I just do think Snape is pure blood. head of Slytherin, DE. DE spy for the order. Why this? Would LV have ever trusted fully a non-pureblood DE.
Voldyface himself is a halfblood. So yes.

I doubt it, but I suppose its possible. It would explain a lot...

And what, exactly, would it explain? :huh: I believe that even if Snape did like Lily it wouldn't have had much to do with him hating James-- James is already enough of a neusance to him.

Well, yes, but surely there had to be a spark to start the fire.

Well, yes, but surely there had to be a spark to start the fire.

Yes, and it was James being a jerk and cursing Severus whenever he saw him, wasn't it?

It always makes me squirm when people say that, because they're almost always people that haven't bothered to explore Snape's character and just hate him for the heck of it. Snape definitely can feel emotions. Not only the ones mentioned-- shame, humiliation, anger-- but I'm sure some kinder emotions too.Yes, he can be quite concerned when he doesn't know Harry is watching him - e.g. in CoS when McGonagall tells the staff Ginny has been taken into the Chamber.

I just took another look at the Edinburgh Book Festival quote, and it does rather suggest that he might be half-blood. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, although I suspect from the way JKR talks about him that we shouldn't expect too much nobility from him in the next two books, if and when we find out more backstory on him.

i know LV was not pureblood...just like historians now suggest Hitler was far less then "pure" by his own standards. But he who writes the standards and is in command is above reproach. Snape in not.

Hmm, this is a long thread, and I haven't read every single post on it, so maybe somebody already said all this--but here goes anyway.

I've always liked the theory that Snape had a thing for Lily back in the day. It is hard to find direct support for that in the pensieve memory, but I'll give you my spin on it, and how it might be consistent:

The memory is billed as "Snape's Worst Memory." But what is so bad about it? It can't be that James picked on him--according to Sirius, James had hexed Snape many times before that, and would keep doing it many times after that. Snape, for his part, reportedly gave about as well as he got. So why is this one duel by the lake such a horrible memory for Snape?
I suggest that the really terrible part, for Snape, was the part involving Lily. I know, you're all saying "He called her a mudblood! That proves he didn't like her!" Well, maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't. Maybe he liked her, but was ashamed of liking her because Slytherins are supposed to like purebloods. Maybe he was feeling particularly angry and humiliated about being beaten in front of lots of students, and was lashing out at whoever was nearby.
If Snape liked Lily, and blurted out something ugly at her while his temper was up, then the part of the scene that would make this his worst memory is the part where Lily blinks at him, and coolly informs him she won't bother with him in future.
Had she bothered with him in the past? Remus said she was uncommonly kind, and helped those who couldn't see their own goodness. Maybe she was kind to the unpopular young Snape, and he developed a crush on her because of it, but, ashamed to admit it, he lashed out at her in public. She never wasted a kind glance on him again, and he knew it was all his fault.
I think losing the good opinion of the girl you love through what you know is your own ugly behavior would qualify as a "worst memory" for most people.

I think it was Snape's Worst Memory due to it being humiliation in front of his peers and exposure of certain parts of himself- James probably took off his pants even. Humiliation like that leaves much more emotional damge than any curse or hex would.
I dont know if Snape really had a crush on Lily but perhaps he just in general thought of her as a good person and was angry that she would be going out with James.

Yes, your interpretation makes sense, and is probably correct. Still, I think mine is possible, and since JKR often hides clues about what is really going on with distracting stuff that causes us to leap to other conclusions, I'm going to hold onto my little theory for now.

I think it was Snape's Worst Memory due to it being humiliation in front of his peers and exposure of certain parts of himself- James probably took off his pants even. Humiliation like that leaves much more emotional damge than any curse or hex would.
I dont know if Snape really had a crush on Lily but perhaps he just in general thought of her as a good person and was angry that she would be going out with James.


but if snape thought that she was a really good person, why would he call her something like that? (he insult her) he wouldnt do that if he liked her

Because socially unskilled teens are like that, especially ones who come from backgrounds where insulting and demeaning language is constantly thrown out at people in moments of anger.

it could be possible, but if u read the 5th book u would know why they didn't get along!!!!!!

Hi Bertha Blotts,

you are right, I tried to convince people with same reasoning a long time ago. My post is right now on the second page of this thread, but I quote it now to back you up.

I don't think I managed to convince anyone, cause half of the people think Snape is plain evil, and the other half likes Lily too much to imagine her as Snape's love.

I advise everyone too read the books again once you get older, you'll have a different view of things (and not only in this matter), catch more jokes of JKR I promise (I never believed this when I was a kid, but adults are right on some odd occasion). This goes for virtually every book you happen to read. Even if you are not a kid anymore, a decade can make a difference.

Good luck, Bertha Blotts.

Siriusblue

Come on guys, be more open-minded!

The original theory is verified by Snape calling Lily a mudblood!!!
(Please don't stop reading, I'll try to convince you.)
The title of the chapter is "Snape's worst memory", right?
Now lean back in your chair and think about YOUR worst memory.

Did it HAPPEN TO YOU or DID YOU DO SOMETHING TO SOMEONE?
If you're older than 12-13 (no offense people, but you should have
a little life-experience for this) it's most likely that it's something
WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

Why? Because people tend to remember their good memories
and forget about bad times. BUT you can hate YOURSELF for the faults
that you have committed, especially if YOU CAN'T CHANGE WHAT HAPPENED
ANYMORE.
(Lily's dead, so Snape can't )

That's why I believe that Snape's worst memory is CALLING LILY A MUDBLOOD.

Was it that horrible what James did to him?
I mean compared to the Whomping Willow incident... thought so.

It doesn't have to mean that Snape was head over heels in love with Lily,
but he could've thought that she was cute with her green eyes.

Well, actually I think he loved her but that's for another thread.
Please stop thinking of characters as one-dimensional soap-opera characters.
There are always the shades of grey.

Siriusblue

i can be .....It can be who knows thw world may never know.........(except jkr) :)

i can be .....It can be who knows the world may never know.........(except jkr) :tu: :td: :tu: :td: idk..........?¿?¿?¿

hmm I dunno siriusblue, I'm open to what you're saying being part of why it's his worst memory, but as someone whose worst memories includes much verbal humiliation inflicted upon me at 11-12, I still maintain that what James did to him was the bulk of why it was his worst memory in the first place. He did nothing to provoke yet suffered unwilling indecent exposure. To have this done at the age of 15 and then have Lily make a disparaging remark (after he called her a mudblood) about his pants is more than sufficient to have it be his worst memory.

Good point siriusblue! Sometimes I feel that the memory might not be clear enough in the chapter or Harry got pulled out before he saw the worst of it. I do agree though that it is the mudblood issue with Lily. Based on Lupin's comment in the PoA film about how Lily saw good in others, I've felt it was refering to Snape, although Lupin probably meant it more towards himself. Maybe it was the crush he never acted upon, or one that he did and it went badly. I'm leaning towards the former.

Has anyone considered this:

The chapter in which Snape's memory of James hexing him etc is titled "Snape's Worst Memory". From what we later find out, James hexed Snape loads of times, so why does this memory stand out? In my opinion, its because Snape called Lily a mudblood in a fit of rage and instantly regretted it. He humiliated himself, and thats why its his worst memory. Or mayeb it was because he was humiliated in front of Lily, makign in ten times worse.

In addition, we can assume that this is the first time Snape called Lily a mudblood as she seemed quite peeved off when he did. (And the fact that she was helping him directly implies that he never called her a mudblood before)

Not only that, there has never been a clear explanation as to why Snape and James hated each other so much. The answer "Its more because he [Snape] exists" is weak at best. I think Snape had a thing for Lily, and Lily knew it and tried to protect him from James.

Not only that, there has never been a clear explanation as to why Snape and James hated each other so much. The answer "Its more because he [Snape] exists" is weak at best. I think Snape had a thing for Lily, and Lily knew it and tried to protect him from James.Lily protected Snape because she was a decent person and did not like James bullying. There is no indication that she knew that Snape liked her. But as to the original topic - yes, I think Snape did like Lily. However anti-muggle he might have been at the time, if he was indifferent to her, he wouldn't insult her at just that very moment. Draco does not insult Hermione immediatly after she behaves fairly toward him - he saves it for more suitable situations.

Snape called Lily a mudblood precisely because he liked her and the worst part of the humiliation was that she witnessed it. As a teenager, he might not be able to react adequately just then, and lashed out at the cause of his discomfort. Besides, he might also have had conflicting feelings because liking a muggleborn was against everything he believed in, so Lily was unknowingly a constant source of guilt and vexation for young Snape.

Harry, as a product of Lily and James union must be a double pain for Snape. A living image of his tormentor, a reminder of the loss of Lily to his enemy - it is too much for him to bear. Snape is unable to see Harry as he is, when Sanpe talks about him, it is clear that he has James in mind (so arrogant.. (Harry was never arrogant) above the rules... (Harry is reasonably compliant) and so on). We all know that Snape is biased and tyranical, but come on, a clever grown man earnestly feuding with a 11 years old - that is not even funny. It looks like the very look of Harry triggers some abnormal reaction in Snape, reversing him in his school years with all the pain he used to suffer, and most likely Lily's eventual preference for James was a large part of it.

siriusblue i like that theory! and yours too garbage, they're pretty close. i never thought of it in that way, and jkr usually has a way of twisting words (worst memory not referring to what james did to him, but what he did to lily) i did get a vibe that snape had a bit of a thing for lily, esp after the 3rd movie....no body hurt me in know its not canon! but i read in a newspaper that it was going to be in one of the next books, way back when, in june after the movie came out.

Dear funnyhoney88, ikuko, The Garbage Man, legallybrunette, LunaGoldstien,

thanks for your support. My theory has been rejected on 9 whole pages of this thread, so you can imagine how I feel now.
Thank you very much.

I really like the theory of The Garbage Man.

Siriusblue

Sorry to burst your bubble, siriusblue, but a LOT of other people have suggested that Snape felt sorry about the memory because he called Lily a mudblood. You're not the only one.

Personally, I think the mudblood line is completely up for grabs and shouldn't really be counted-- it can swing in almost any direction because there is so little support for it. And outside of that line there seems to be more evidence for him not liking Lily. I believe that instead of liking Lily because she helped him in the past, he would have resented her for it. Her help was merely a reminder to himself that he couldn't stand up for himself on his own, and he would have hated her for trying to meddle with his business.

I don't know if I imagined Snape ever loving Lily, I did think they may have been friends at one stage, but grew apart as Snape immersed himself deeper in the Dark Arts.

And I sort of imagined that perhaps, Lily was part of the reason that Snape left Voldemort. Maybe she had a role in making him realise what LV was really about.

i think that Snape might have, might have, had a crush on Lily...maybe that's another readon why Snape hated James?

Personally, I think the mudblood line is completely up for grabs and shouldn't really be counted-- it can swing in almost any direction because there is so little support for it. And outside of that line there seems to be more evidence for him not liking Lily. I believe that instead of liking Lily because she helped him in the past, he would have resented her for it. Her help was merely a reminder to himself that he couldn't stand up for himself on his own, and he would have hated her for trying to meddle with his business.
Mudblood line is interesting - not on it's own, but with consideration of the precise moment when it was issued. There is NO evidence of Snape disliking Lily. He insults her, but for a teenager it means nothing. Much more powerfull evidence of the contrary we see in the everyday Snape's behavior: he constantly begrudges Harry with his father and his likeness to him, but has NEVER mentioned his mother or the colour of Harry's eyes (as so many other's did).

There is one thing that has never changed, in wizard or muggle school. If someone would tell you that a teenage boy is completely immune to the charms of a pretty girl - spit in the eyes of an unworthy lier. A boy might attempt to resist attraction for one or another reason (like stronger feelings for another speciment, for one) but if he does something so stupid as to repay with an insult for help - get some popcorn and settle to watch the age-old farce of the fool's struggles :rotfl:

There is one thing that has never changed, in wizard or muggle school. If someone would tell you that a teenage boy is completely immune to the charms of a pretty girl - spit in the eyes of an unworthy lier. A boy might attempt to resist attraction for one or another reason (like stronger feelings for another speciment, for one) but if he does something so stupid as to repay with an insult for help - get some popcorn and settle to watch the age-old farce of the fool's struggles
What would you have expected him to say instead? He obviously didn't want her help, and it seems that no matter what he says, it would be taken against him-- obviously he can't thank her, and yet if he said ANYTHING negative everyone would immediately assume that it meant that he liked her. He was purely desperate at the moment and I can understand him lashing out as such, especially with his temper. And are you suggesting that every single boy on earth can't resist a "pretty girl"? I think that's a pretty wide generalization. Snape might have thought her pretty, maybe, but I don't think he likes her, and there's a difference. As we all know, Snape has a knack for refusing everyone's help, and he would have found Lily's attempts to help him revolting. How dare she attempt to understand his life, after all? He would have grown to hate her for it, not like her.

Oh my gosh, you people can't figure this out by yourselves?

OBVIOUSLY Snape liked Lily, I mean hello? what the heck were you people doing when you were supposed to be reading the books?

DUH! :nc:

This is an old theory I read about some years ago on this forum...
Did Snape love Lilly? Was he jealous of James?
In my opinion the new scene does nothing to support this but I think it is still not impossible...
I like this theory though I don't know why...
I definately think that it is in the relm of possiblities. Definately not out of the question. I was thinking the same thing myself. I think Snape may have liked her before James did, but she liked James and not Snape, and the way he insulted her is typical of boys that do not want the girl to know that he likes her. Snape was not popular with the girl population, so he didn't know what to do, and I think that he resented James and Sirius for their overflowing confidence, and ability to talk to girls. I still would love to know the exact reason that Snape and James & Sirius didn't like one another, what is the reason that they started feuding? It could have been Lilly for Snape and something completely different for James, or maybe James knew that Snape liked Lilly. I guess we will find out soon enough, just not soon enough for me :D !

I also agree with what Dark Penguin says. :p

What would you have expected him to say instead? .Oh, there are so many other things to do. To thank her, to ignore her, to lash out on his attacker instead of his helper, to tell her to mind her own business - without unnecessary insult, to say that he is fine, that he has it under control and leave him alone, to complain, to tell a teacher (as Malfoy would) to appeal to justice, to start crying, to pretend being badly hurt and work up a general remorse, any number of things.

He obviously didn't want her help, and it seems that no matter what he says, it would be taken against him-- obviously he can't thank her, and yet if he said ANYTHING negative everyone would immediately assume that it meant that he liked her. .And why, exactly, it is so important that no one would ever think that he likes her? if it was not true, it would never be an issue.
And are you suggesting that every single boy on earth can't resist a "pretty girl"? I think that's a pretty wide generalization. .I never said that "can not resist", I even brought up an example when a boy CAN resist a pretty girl. I stateed that "can not be indifferent", which is a biological fact. It might be not apparent for girls in the highschool, but later on it becomes painfully obvious.

Oh yes, it´s very likely. Yes, I´m pretty sure he did.
And he hates Harry, because he sees James in him.He always compairs Harry with James, not even once with Lily, if I´m not mistaken.
So I think Snape really loved Lily and betrayed Voldemort because of him killing Lily....

For Dark Penguin:

I read more carefully the thread and you are of course right, well except for one point. I'm very happy that there are other people out there with the same ideas. I'm not half as nasty as you seem to think I am or as my post my have suggested it.:)

siriusblue

I greatly support LS shipping, because honestly there has to be more then what we saw in OotP that made Snape hate James so badly...
I'm not saying that what happened in chapter 28 didn't influence his feelings, because I doubt anyone would be fond of a person who humiliated them in public. But it looks like James might have done something else, something that greatly marked Snape for all these years and that made him have a 'natural' hate for Harry, as he does resemble his father.


So I think Snape really loved Lily and betrayed Voldemort because of him killing Lily....

Also we know that Snape turned to the other side before Voldemorts fall, which was in the night of Lilys death...
So basically while I support this theory, there is this big loophole that makes us question exactly when did Snape turn (because he could have switched sides days before LV fall, having disagreed on the Potters death). Or he could have done it way before (meaning he spoke to Lily and put his questions/doubts/insecurities to rest?) somehow I just doubt this second theory, because he wouldn't have Lily and would be putting his life in danger for someone who is happily married.

Another big question mark that made me belive in the LS was the fact that Lily hated James till 7th year, then they began dating. I'm not the only one who finds something fishy about this, right? We may get some explanations on HBP about this.
But, to contradict myself, Snape called Lily a mudblood. This may have been JKRs way to tell us that there is no L/S going on... :huh:

I'm not half as nasty as you seem to think I am or as my post my have suggested it.
I never said you were nasty....?

"I never said you were nasty....?"

OK.

I'll try to support the Snape loved Lily theory and keep my way too big mouth otherwise shut.

siriusblue

I hope I managed to get dark penguins quote in, apologies if i didn't.

Her help was merely a reminder to himself that he couldn't stand up for himself on his own, and he would have hated her for trying to meddle with his business.

I agree with Dark Penguin that Lily's help would have angered Snape. He is an extremely proud man and to be seen to need the help of anyone (especially a muggle) would have been too much for him to bear. Nevermind that it happened in front of most of the school and that people seemed pleased to see him humiliated, but to have Lily try to help him in front of his tormentors would have been the worst insult.

I refuse to believe that Snape had any romantic feelings for Lily. It was his worst memory because he was made to look a fool in front of everyone. The fact that Lily pitied him would have made him lash out at her and call her a mudblood, which he may feel badly about now, but it is not why it is his worst memory.

I think the "Snape loved Lily" idea makes sense. I don't think his calling her a "mudblood" undermines the theory. I see it like like this;

Snape grow up in a unpleasant family, quite likely pure-blood dark wizards. He would have been taught by his parents to look down on everyone who isn't a pure blood wizard. So far, so plausible.

Then he meets Lily. She is pretty, clever and popular - and muggle born. He feels he shouldn't like her, but he does. This makes him angry - with himself, and her (illogical, but common enough). The scene in the Pensieve is all the more humiliating for this. Snape calls Lily "mudblood" partly out of anger and humiliation, partly as a way of denying his own feelings. It is Snape's "worst memory" because even if he didn't stand a chance with Lily before, at least she didn't actually dislike him, as she would now. Snape is left to brood on his own loneliness and humiliation.

Then
Snape left the death eaters to join the order
Snape tells Harry his father died "too arrogant" to believe it would happen
Could Snape's feelings for Lily have been the catalyst for him leaving the death eaters? The Potters escaped Voldy 3 times before they were killed - did Snape save them (or just Lily?) - this could account for Dumbledore's faith in him.

Let's say Snape pulled off a dramatic rescue "at great personal risk". Would James be inclined to be grateful - or as grateful as Snape would want? Won't it make Snape mad if he wasn't? Or perhaps James ignored advice from Snape - not to go to Godric's Hollow, not to trust Pettigrew or something. James and Lily end up dead - and Snape blames James for Lily's death. This takes the enemity between them beyond schoolboy dislike. Snape hates Harry because he reminds him not only of James himself, but also of Lily's marriage to James. If he knows Lily died to save him, he might even despise Harry for that, utterly illogical of course, but love is illogical, probably even more so for someone like Snape.

I know that there isn't much hard evidence for this in the books, but it all fits with what we do know. JKR might have wanted to show us another side of love - jealously, rejection and rage.

It's also possible that Snape loved Lily, but wasn't in love with her. That could still fit.

I can see your point shaggydogstail.

Someone had a great theory (apologies I can't remember who or where) that Snape was actually there in Godric's Hollow the night Lord V killed Lily and James. The person who said stand aside you silly girl was actually Snape trying to persuade Lily to let him take harry to safety. As for James' arrogance, he obviously couldn't believe that Snape was there to help them and as a result died and had Lily killed in the process.

I do wonder if Snape did have a hand in helping the potters to defeat Lord V, and if his anger at Harry stems not only for the crappy way James treated him but also because James would never believe that Snape was on Dumbledore's side.

I am not convinced about Snape coming from a pure blood family. I still wonder about the man shouting at the cowering woman....was it his father or grandfather? I have a feeling his mom is muggle born and perhaps got the rough end of the deal from her husband's side of the family. The mudblood comment was the worst thing he could say...so he said it, perhaps more for the benefit of other Slytherins then as an attack on Lily.

I am still hoping against hope that the worst memory scene wasn't all about Snape's love for Lily. I believe he has the potential to love, but why does it have to be her?!

I don't really buy in to Snape loving Lily. I've always seen it as more of a friendship that they once had but was soon forgotten when they ended up in Hogwarts in different houses.

I really like the idea of Snape being at Godric's Hollow that night. I had a similar theory that's probably on the boards somewhere about Snape being there but he wasn't the person who said "Stand aside".

In my incredibly basic theory he had used his logic as he usually did and had worked out that the Potters were going to be betrayed but had gotten there too late and he had been the one who had initially told Dumbledore of the Potters demise.

I like the idea that he was the one that said "Stand aside" though, everyone always thinks the worst of Snape despite his actions and I think it ties in with his character quite well.

I don't really buy in to Snape loving Lily. I've always seen it as more of a friendship that they once had but was soon forgotten when they ended up in Hogwarts in different houses.

I am confused. Snape had no chance of ever meeting Lily before coming to Hogwarts, as he grew in a wizarding community, and she was a muggle-born. When do you suggest they had time to become friends? on the train? Dont think so, he was very prejudiced against muggle-born.

I can see your point Ikuko, but what proof do we have that Snape grew up in a purely wizarding family? Do we know that he really is predjudiced against muggles? Yes he was a death eater but we don't knwo the reasons for why he joined, perhaps he had no choice and turned on them the first chance he could.

I hope we find out what happened at Godrics hollow that night, but yes i too would like to think he was there, and may I add that he was not there because he had romantic feelings for Lily, but as SnappySlytherin said they may have had a friendship at one point.

I don't understand why anyone thinks Snape could have loved Lily- Why would he have ever called her a "filthy little Mudblood"? That's a horrible swearword!

Because socially unskilled teens are like that, especially ones who come from backgrounds where insulting and demeaning language is constantly thrown out at people in moments of anger.

I don't know... there's a difference between calling someone a generic insult (i.e. witch witch with a B), and calling a Black person the n word in a derogatory way. The n word being a word from times of slavery, the term "Mudblood" calling someone of unclean heritage. That's a really big insult.

I don't understand why anyone thinks Snape could have loved Lily- Why would he have ever called her a "filthy little Mudblood"? That's a horrible swearword!
boys usually deny liking a particular girl...so he could have liked her... but still... my opinion..

Snape was jealous of everything James and his friends had. Wouldn't surprise me if he was jealous of the fact that James had a girl and he never had anyone. Snape comes off as the guy that never had any good relationships in his life and so he pushed everyone away, he just didn't know how to act in social circles. he might have had feelings for Lilly just on the basis that she was James' girlfriend.

hmmm maybe....

I am confused. Snape had no chance of ever meeting Lily before coming to Hogwarts, as he grew in a wizarding community, and she was a muggle-born. When do you suggest they had time to become friends? on the train? Dont think so, he was very prejudiced against muggle-born.


I buy in to the theory that Snape grew up with atleast 1 muggle parent (based purely on the bit in the book where his Mother was cowering from his Father. No wands mentioned and the alleged violence seemed to be of a physical nature rather than a magical nature).

I also think that Snape used the term "mud-blood" because it was the worst insult he could come up with and he was probably subconsciously berating himself for having a muggle background.

He seems to me the sort of person who is not happy with who he is and icks on people who reminds him of himself or bad points in his past. (Like Neville for being quiet and feeble, Harry for having a Father who was a jerk who picked on Severus and Ron for being poor like Severus' family appeared to be) so it would make perfect sense in my mind for Severus to call Lily a mud-blood if he was or mixed blood.

beautifully said SnappySlytherin! I love the comparison with Neville (if you havent yet read the brilliant fanfic A Young Severus Snape by LouisaB, then do...it's terrific)

Snape is someone who is not happy with himself. An unhappy childhood, being bullied and not having many friends, and also being the product of a mixed marriage have given him a massive inferiority complex. He has a constant need to prove his worth not only to others but to himself as well. What is the obsession with getting the order of merlin? He craves recognition and acceptance.

By calling Lily a mudblood he was (as snappySlytherin said) berating himself. In some tragic way perhaps he felt that he deserved all the abuse he got (from the marauders and also from his father as well) I can't see how he could really truly love anyone if he can't even love himself.

Oooooh lots of praise today, thank you!!! *bows so low her nose touches the ground*

Snape is indeed a very troubled and complex character. I get the feeling that even when all of the books have finished we will never truly understand Severus Snape, only having skimmed the surface and finding out enough to progress our understanding of his relationship with Harry.

"He craves recognition and acceptance". I couldn't have put it better myself, I have tried and failed to explain myself properly but you summed it up perfectly.

And no, I don't think he loved Lily. I think he probably had a crush on a girl in his teens (most teenage boys do) but she either failed to notice he existed (and he berated himself for being too quiet and weak to ask her out and too ugly to be accepted) or he did something stupid during the relationship because he was so socially inept which made her dislike him. (A bit like Harry saying he wanted to meet Hermione when he was on his date with Cho).

If the latter is the case then I think he may well be the boy that hexed Bertha Jorkins. I mean, if you were Florence and was kissing a boy who wasn't attractive and certainly wasn't popular and HE ended up hexing someone because they saw HIM kissing you like he was ashamed of you you'd probably get pretty annoyed at him and end it.

Funny you should mention the hexing incident because on the who did bertha see kissing Florence thread I maintained that it could not be Snape. Get ready for more praise......you are right about the possibility of him making a foolish mistake and hexing bertha. I always thought that it would be Florence who would have been upset at being seen, but if Snape was upset (even if it wasn't about being seen with florence, but about having a private moment intruded upon) and he hexed bertha and Florence took it the wrong way...well...I shall have to go vack to that thread and rethink my theory.

Oops I kinda drifted off topic there. I think that Snape was probably a very quiet and shy boy and i can't imagine him asking a girl out. He doesn't seem the type to put himself in a situation where he could suffer humiliation. I know I know James took his pants off, but Snape didn't put himself in that situation on purpose (at least I dont think he did). Anyway I guess what i am trying to say is that I can't imagine Snape ever asking a girl out or telling anyone he fancied them. It just isn't in his charcacter.

I guess I just negated everything I said above....would he have kissed Florence? would he have put himself in a situation where there was the possibility of humiliation or hurt? Could he lower his guard enough to have a relationship with anyone? I really don't know...he is a tricky one indeed.

As far as Snape calling Lily a Mudblood being like Snape calling a black person the n word, yes, there's a similarity.

I see Snape as a child as having come from a background where a lot of foul language was used very casually. As an adult, he's given it up, but I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have to make a conscious effort not to fall into it.

I remember reading an account of a nurse who, back in the pre-Civil Rights era in the South, had broken the rules at her hospital to put a black premie in the hospital incubator. She managed to keep the child there up until the point where a large group of men showed up intending to make an example of both the baby and its mother. At that point, she was able to get both the mother and child away safely although the child, removed from the incubator, didn't last long. The point is, when she was interviewed years later for her story, she used the n word all over the place. She told the interviewer she knew Yankees didn't like the word, but that was the way she talked and she was too old to change. She didn't have the beliefs associated with the speech pattern but she had the speech pattern.

So, put a boy who's been raised up around foul language in an emotional enough situation and you have good odds he'll fall into the language patterns he was raised up with whether he embraces the philosophy they reflect or not.

I buy in to the theory that Snape grew up with atleast 1 muggle parent (based purely on the bit in the book where his Mother was cowering from his Father. No wands mentioned and the alleged violence seemed to be of a physical nature rather than a magical nature).

I also think that Snape used the term "mud-blood" because it was the worst insult he could come up with and he was probably subconsciously berating himself for having a muggle background.

He seems to me the sort of person who is not happy with who he is and icks on people who reminds him of himself or bad points in his past. (Like Neville for being quiet and feeble, Harry for having a Father who was a jerk who picked on Severus and Ron for being poor like Severus' family appeared to be) so it would make perfect sense in my mind for Severus to call Lily a mud-blood if he was or mixed blood.This is a pure speculation. Wizards might also be rude and resort to non-magical violence, since use of the wands can be all too easily proven. I do not see how Mrs. Snape cowering under the abuse shows that she was not a witch. Rather, opposite. A muggle-hater would not marry or consider a marriage as an obligation any longer than he likes, and a muggle woman might impart some consideration to muggles in her sn. It was obvious that young Snape was sympathising with his mother, not his abusive father. Sometimes the victims of abuse identify themselves with an abuser and grow up violent, but this is clearly not the case with Snape (however unpleasant he might be at times)

This is a pure speculation. Wizards might also be rude and resort to non-magical violence, since use of the wands can be all too easily proven.

Yip, I know it's speculation, but it's fun to speculate and that's all we can do until the next book comes out :sad:

A muggle-hater would not marry or consider a marriage as an obligation any longer than he likes, and a muggle woman might impart some consideration to muggles in her sn.

I never actually said that it was his Mother that was the muggle, it could be his Father. For all we know the wizard/witch of the situation may not have known about the erm...."quality" of their partners blood. Just like Tom Riddle's Father, or Dean Thomas' Father...maybe this was the time that Severus' Father found out of his wife's "problem".

It was obvious that young Snape was sympathising with his mother, not his abusive father. Sometimes the victims of abuse identify themselves with an abuser and grow up violent, but this is clearly not the case with Snape (however unpleasant he might be at times)

It was obviously clear that Snape was sympathising with his Mother but that does not necessarily mean that he didn't take this as situation in his future and hold some blame on his Mother for letting it happen. Children of abusers/abused parents often grow up with a view that they themselves were helpless because they were a child but the person being abused was an adult, someone who is meant to be mature and have more power in the world. Why didn't THEY stop it?

And as for Severus not growing up to be abusive...I would say that there are more than one type of abuse and Severus has definately got verbal abuse down to a T. He is incredibly like his Father in the way that he is cruel to children, someone lesser and weaker than him to make him feel powerful, which is generally what abuse is all about-power.

Hi Bertha Blotts,

you are right, I tried to convince people with same reasoning a long time ago. My post is right now on the second page of this thread, but I quote it now to back you up.

I don't think I managed to convince anyone, cause half of the people think Snape is plain evil, and the other half likes Lily too much to imagine her as Snape's love.

I advise everyone too read the books again once you get older, you'll have a different view of things (and not only in this matter), catch more jokes of JKR I promise (I never believed this when I was a kid, but adults are right on some odd occasion). This goes for virtually every book you happen to read. Even if you are not a kid anymore, a decade can make a difference.

Good luck, Bertha Blotts.

Siriusblue

Hi! Thanks for the support, and thanks for re-quoting your original post. I totally agree (obviously), and was happy to read it. Clearly we are in the minority, but time will tell, right? Books 6 and 7 are coming, and then (I bet) we'll be proven right.

:tu:

I totally think that that is possible.

Reading these posts about Severus makes me want to cry for him. Man, what a character!!

I am not convinced either that he is from a pureblood background. I think he may be a candidate for the Half Blood Prince. But the subject here, however, is whether he loved Lily or not. I wondered that somewhere along the way, too. And I think that suspicion was planted in our minds on purpose. There is definitely a connection with him and Lily. Could be major. Could be minor. There are so many possibilities it makes my head spin!

:eyebrows: It seems like everyone liked Lily. :eyebrows:

Is it possible that both of Snape's parents were muggles? Just a thought.

At one point, I thougth that perhaps Snape and Lilly had gotten together at some point and concieved Harry. But something happened and Lilly ended up with James. Harry does look alot like Snape. BUT then I knew that couldn't have happened. But it made me wonder about Snape's feelings towards Lilly. I think he might have had a "crush" on her and couldn't admit it to even himself, for whatever reason.

i think snape is going to end us surprising us all, i think he will eventually be the one to help out harry in the end, though i doubt that they will ever be the best of buddies.

I do believe that in an interview, JKR said that Snape in love was "a very horrible idea" and was surprised when someone asked if he was in love. Alas, I don't think that old Sevvie turned Good (if that's what you want to call him) because of Lily.

Hmm I think in the end Snape will sacrifice himself for Harry's life in honor of Lilly. :eyebrows:

i am sure snape had a crush on her.. but him being him, he was too scared of rejection and acted like a jerk and blew any chance of her liking him.
or maybe he was attracted to her but after seeing his parents fight so often as a child (speculating), he never wanted to be in a relationship.

I've been thinking this often and yes, I believe Snape was carrying a torch for Lily. It must have been felt thousand times worse when Lily was seeing him humiliated by James. Did Snape save Potter in book one because of Lily? We might never know.

This is one of the theories I hate most, and I can't quite put my finger on why. At the moment I don't think we have enough evidence to know what Snape's feelings for Lily were - when we saw them together, Snape was addressing Lily with one of the worst insults around. I know people argue that it was his worst memory because he insulted Lily like that, but I really don't think there was anything between them.

Is it possible that both of Snape's parents were muggles? Just a thought.

No. JKR has said that Snape isn't muggleborn. Here's the quote (taken from http://www.mugglenet.com/mediasp/2004/august/jkrinterview.shtml):


Q: [...] Also, is [Snape] a pure blood wizard?

A: Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances. You have some information about his ancestry there.

She doesn't rule out Snape being half-blood, though.

Well, even if he does like her, he certainly has a weird way of showing it. Calling her a mudblood....and we all know how snape hates muggles or half bloods. i don't know...I suppose it COULD be possible in a bizarre way....hmm..
However, as other people have mentioned, he could have just called her a mudblood, cuz he was embarassed at being saved by a girl. BUT, mudblood is like the WORST insult in the wizarding world, so....i don't know....maybe jut maybe he did have a crush on her.

Everyone is saying how every male character in James' year was soooo in love with Lily. I totally don't agree that Lupin ever liked Lily (although people will disagree with me on that), but I think that Snape probably had a little crush on Lily--more reason for Snape to hate James & Harry.

If you look closely in the text, (I'm not saying that James didn't make fun of Snape but..) Sirius was the main one that was taunting and torturing Snape. If Snape had reason to hate someone it would be Sirius over James. Snape having a tiny (note the word "tiny") crush on Lily would give Snape a reason to hate James and Harry.

Hmm...I don't know...the whole "I don't need help from a mudblood" thing struck me as a little harsh for someone who had a crush on one (Lily, that is).

That just reminds me of kindergarten...when the boys that used to like you used to beat you up.

And besides, she pretty much insulted his manhood when she stood up for him (I know about insulting a guy's manhood-- I have 3 brothers)...a guy that has a girl stand up for him is gonna be kinda bitter, even if he does like her. But that's my opinion...

That just reminds me of kindergarten...when the boys that used to like you used to beat you up.

And besides, she pretty much insulted his manhood when she stood up for him (I know about insulting a guy's manhood-- I have 3 brothers)...a guy that has a girl stand up for him is gonna be kinda bitter, even if he does like her. But that's my opinion...
I'll buy that. You're right about the fragile male ego being bruised by a girl helping him.
Especially teenagers.

To me, the insult was a little too harsh to be bruised male pride or picking on the girl you like. And I don't think Snape needed Lily as an extra reason to hate James - after how they all treated each other at school it's no wonder he hated James and Sirius. Look at the animosity between Draco Malfoy and Harry, they wouldn't need any more fuel to the fire.

I think it's worth discussing whether or not Lily was using love potions! It seems that everyone was in love with her!

I am kind of interested in this theory about Lily using love potions. I agree that it seems everyone has some kind of overly fond memory of her. Plus, she did end up with James, so she must have had a rebellious side (I believe that she wouldn't have used a love potion to keep her husband in love with her). Hmmmmm. That would give Harry's mother a darker side now wouldn't it?

Not evil dark, just kind of mischievous and a little less sweet.

Yet the balance of kind and mischevious (presumably from his parents) has made Harry who he is...

So now maybe I am doubting this...