Snape loved Lily?

This is an old theory I read about some years ago on this forum...
Did Snape love Lilly? Was he jealous of James?
In my opinion the new scene does nothing to support this but I think it is still not impossible...
I like this theory though I don't know why...

Hard to say. Nothing rules it out, IMHO, but if Snape calling Lily a mudblood is any indication of how he really feels about muggleborns (versus being a product of hurt feelings and humiliation), it's not incredibly likely.

He could be calling her a mudblood because he probably is humiliated at having a girl have to save him.

I think Lily was the kind of girl who always stuck up for underdogs, so her defense of Snape was nothing more than her feeling sorry for him.

However, as for Snape having feelings for Lily: who knows? It certainly wasn't a good move for him to call her a Mudblood, if he wanted to woo her. Then again, if he did like her, it was probably from a crush standpoint, as in she was unattainable for him. He may have fancied her from a distance, and tried to cover it up with the Mudblood nonsense. I hope it doesn't turn out that way, though--much too soap opera-ish for my liking. :whistle:

I think Snape does not know the meaning of the verb To Love
Apparently, his childhood and adolescence took all posible love away from his soul.

Well, I still get the feeling that Snape did have some feelings, maybe just a crush, I mean, Lily was really smart and pretty and all.

Well, Snape may have had a passing interest on her just by the fact that she was pretty...but I think all chances of him truly loving her was dashed the moment he was born and put into his parents' hands. From what we've seen Snape was taught a very narrow-minded way to view the world, and that included having mudbloods being bad. If Snape had been brought up properly I have no doubt that he might have really liked Lily. But as it is, he wasn't and I think that his "programmed" hate of mudbloods over-powered his (if any) love of Lily.

As to Lily liking Snape....I don't think so. I think that she hated the dark arts just as much as James did and she also did not approve of snape's obvious beliefs. However, she also did not like the way he was treated, so merely stuck up for him in a sort of stand-offish way. Nothing that special, she was just sticking up for her own morals and beliefs that even people like Snivellus shouldn't be treated the way James treated him.

Snape Have feelings Whoa............. NO but I dont think he did he called her a mudblood! Jemes jumped in to protect her it was so Dramish! Althought some guys are like kinda "mean" to girls when they like them I dono why. I am like that once in awhile!

I hate to feel sorry for Snape, but after reading that part of the book, I couldn't help it...that is, until he called Lily a Mudblood.

Maybe that was one of the many reasons Snape hated James-- because James got the girl Snape wanted. Assuming Snape wanted her at all.

"Snape loved Lilly?"

Before or after he called her a mudblood?

I don't think Snape loves anyone.

I did feel sad for snape and let the "mudblood" comment slid because he was in a corner and ppl can lash out at anyone around them when they are feeling hurt and embarrased... but being in love with lilly I don't see it.. but anythings possible

I think he loved Lily.

Maybe that's why he hated James so much? there has to be something more than just cos James was good at sport and popular, hasn't there?

they say there is nothing more dangerous than a caged or cornered creature who has been wounded. Snape was HUMILIATED infront of nearly the whole school. He was hung upside down and pantsed, and had mean things shouted at him. The fact that Lily stood up for him, meant she saw what happened. I'm sure he would have prefered that she not have tried to help him at all. He was embarassed, infront of the girl (Hypothetically) he really liked. And worse yet, he probably felt that she Pitied him. A wounded animal will lash out at /anything/ that comes near it, weather its to help or hurt, and thats what snape did.

(now I dont know if I believe this theory, but it does seem possible)

Hi Guy's
I Can't take it anymore I'm soooo fed up with the Lilly Obsession
theory :angry: Why does Snape HAVE to be soooo crazy about Lilly Evans what did JK say about her that she was soooo drop dead gorgeous and clever & smart that boys will pine/lust after her for years and years ???? :rolleyes: It was the 70's and early 80's most people wanted to have fun (clubbing) and start carreers not familes unless James Had to Marry Lilly (shotgun marriage) while unwise they would have just lived together and maybe broken-up gown apart later on in their 20's. I'm sure there
had to have been other girls during his school years form pure-blood families and after he became a Deatheater.
Kittyboy :banghead:

I think this theory lost any possibility it had when Snape called Lily a 'Mudblood.' But that's entirely IMHO.

My point is that for one thing, having an abusive parent has probably not exactly endeared Snape to the idea of love. Also, if someone i had a crush on rescued me from bullies i would NOT utter a racist slur in return. I'd thank them repeatedly whilst privately *squeeing* because they apparently care. Of course Snape would have been more likely to utter a curt 'thank you' but you see what i mean.

His reaction was a combination of things: One, he was rescued by a girl (major violation of the so-called 'Guy Code') and two, she's a Mudblood. Basically, he probably felt just as humiliated by her rescue as by what James had done to him

Snape, in my opinion, is like an adult Malfoy who realized the error of his ways. But I seriously doubt he liked(s) her.

The Marauders seemed to think Snape was always following them but maybe not because remember, James was always trying to impress Lily--so, where ever little goes, James is always heading that direction. Maybe Snape was following Lily and not the Marauders. I mean, why in the world would he follow people bullying him? Then again, Snape did call Lily a Mudblood so who knows.

I've also posted this in another thread (in a different forum) but it seems just as relevant to this topic. Let me just start by saying that Snape did not love Lily. So what is the connection?

Two points to consider here:

1. Harrys second Occlumency lesson, in which he sees the childhood memories of Snape. One of these was the memory of a small girl watching Snape trying to mount a bucking broomstick. Who is this girl?

2. At some point after James fifth year, Lily falls in love with James. What singular event precipitates this apparent change of heart by Lily?

My theory:

The small girl in Snape's memory is Lily. There is some connection between Lily and Snape that predates their time at Hogwarts. Related? 'Girl next door'? I Don't know - but there is some connection there. She sees Snape suffering at the hands of James, as she saw him suffering at the hands of his parents as a small child. And she doesn't like it because she has known Snape all her life.

Later however, James comes to Snape's rescue following the Marauders prank which almost sends him to his death at the hands of the werewolf Lupin. Lily's opinion of James changes after this singular event.

The rest, as they say, is history.

I don't think that Snape loved Lily, sure he could have liked her but there's no proof of that. The way I see it, Lily was simply standing up for him because she didn't like what James was doing. No teenage boy that I know would be happy if a girl stood up for them, so Snape being in that situation did what came first to his mind calling her a mudblood.

Originally posted by Daveydee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=434821#post434821))
I've also posted this in another thread (in a different forum) but it seems just as relevant to this topic. Let me just start by saying that Snape did not love Lily. So what is the connection?

Two points to consider here:

1. Harrys second Occlumency lesson, in which he sees the childhood memories of Snape. One of these was the memory of a small girl watching Snape trying to mount a bucking broomstick. Who is this girl?

2. At some point after James fifth year, Lily falls in love with James. What singular event precipitates this apparent change of heart by Lily?

My theory:

The small girl in Snape's memory is Lily. There is some connection between Lily and Snape that predates their time at Hogwarts. Related? 'Girl next door'? I Don't know - but there is some connection there. She sees Snape suffering at the hands of James, as she saw him suffering at the hands of his parents as a small child. And she doesn't like it because she has known Snape all her life.

Later however, James comes to Snape's rescue following the Marauders prank which almost sends him to his death at the hands of the werewolf Lupin. Lily's opinion of James changes after this singular event.

The rest, as they say, is history.


Good thought! I think that is a definite possibility!

Nice theory but a I have a few doubts though.

First of all, I can't picture Lily, laughing at anybody trying mount a broomstick and failing. If anything, I would think that she would help him/her get on and beg to assist. The person that we saw in the pensive was the generous, kind, and stuck up for her truths. Her laughing at someone having trouble does not fit. Also, she seems to be the person who has been nice and kind all her life, and has been considerate to all, not a person who has just got their priorities right and are just beginning to use it. She's been at it for a while.

There is a part of the theory that I really like though. The part that there is "some connection between Lily and Snape that predates their time at Hogwarts." I like that, and wouldn't be surprised if it were true, or at least having some connection right when Hogwarts was introduced to them.

I think there may be some infatuation, or crush on the part of Snape. Whether or not Lily is the young girl in Snape's memory is irrrellevant. Snape is interested in Lily while at Hogwarts. I think his calling her a Mudblood is out of embarrassment during the Pensieve incident in OoTP.

I don't think Snape could ever love someone who he sees as having humiliated him.

Originally posted by Ecthelion

Nice theory but a I have a few doubts though.

First of all, I can't picture Lily, laughing at anybody trying mount a broomstick and failing. If anything, I would think that she would help him/her get on and beg to assist. The person that we saw in the pensive was the generous, kind, and stuck up for her truths.

This wasn't the pensieve scene, Ec. This was the second Occlumency lesson, where Harry saw a much younger Snape - as a small child.

i don't think it's impossible for snape to have a crush on lilly (why it's his worst memory--calling lilly a mudblood( the girl he likes) and feeling bad about it, being embarassed infront of her, ect) but i wouldn't hold out for it. it just doesn't seem likely, or like something JKR would do, you know?

If Snape did have a crush on Lily, it'd be very tragic. I don't really think that he would though, because he did seem to have a bad attitude toward her because she was a "mudblood." Also, his ego as a 15 year old was probably severly damaged when she tried to stand up for him, which would lead more towards hate than love.

what if snape was related to Lily like maybe a cousin or something?

question, is Tonks not considered a Black family member? wasn't her mother Sirius' first cousin?

really good theory. i suppose it's possible. Snapes hatred against Harry is obviously because he is James' son but a possibility why Snape doesn't want Harry dead is because he is also Lily's son and harry's eyes simply remind him of her. hmm.....i dunno, maybe i'm obsessing too much.

I think he adored Lily from a distance, and the mudblood ordeal was just to hid it. He was then very jealous of James because James was everything he wanted to be and have - great friends (well sirius and remus at least) , pretty girlfriend, popularity, quidditch skills, smarts, etc.

Well, James didn't really have a girlfriend until his seventh year(lily). I think Snape did probably have some crush on Lily.

I'm not sure whether or not I should give up on the Snape and Lily thing, but I haven't. Here are some reasons/rationalizations/really lame excuses:

1. Although he can always find something nasty to say about Harry and/or James, Snape never says anything about Lily. In fact, Snape seems to be the only person who can mention Harry's resemblance to James without a comment immediately showing up about Lily's eyes. It seems suspiciously like he's avoiding mentioning her.

2. What I think was going on with the memory:

First, there's the picture I have of Snape's past. From the memory Harry sees, Snape's father had problems that Snape's mother took the brunt of. What were these problems? While we don't know the whole picture, when Snape gave Harry his speach on weakness, I had the feeling he was repeating things his father had taught him.

If Snape's father despised 'weakness,' I can see him berating Snape's mother for showing what we would consider normal affection and support. I can also see her trying to defend her son when his dad was going after him for some failing, only to wind up taking the brunt of his abuse for protecting Snape and making him 'weak.'

If (and I admit it's a big if) this is what happened, then Snape would have felt guilty as a child for not being strong enough to meet his father's expectations and for not feeling he was the cause for what happened to his mother.

If the above is correct, then Snape wasn't just humiliated by being rescued by a girl. It also wasn't that he took James' attempt to get Lily to go out with him as a crude kind of sexual harrasment that Lily would be laying herself open to if James thought he could get to her by threatening Snape.

It's that Lily has just stepped into the role Snape has seen his mother in and that he has been about as conditioned as a boy could be to resist. It's guaranteed to set off his guilt, anger - at her as well as himself - and need to declare he doesn't need her protection. Of course, he says it in the rudest terms possible.

Which is why I think it was his worst memory. I mean, his hair trigger response when James attacked suggested that this was hardly an isolated incident. The difference was Lily's attempt to save him and Snape being sure he had just blown any chance he ever had to get her to look at him as something other than a dung beetle.

It's definitely possible, and it might help to explain Snapes Harry hatred, as draco is hot (!) said. But Lilly wasn't pure blood or even from a wizading family, so she would be unlikely to know snape. unless the theory about aunt petunia being a squib is true?

he called Lilly a mudblood for crissake....i'm pretty confident that he didn't love her.

Ellen's discussion is excellent but probably more detailed than we will ever get in the books. I have to ask myself why this was the ONE memory Snape held out. If he had been harrassed by the Narauders over the years, as Sirius and Remus confirmed, then why did he not need to remove all of those memories!? Either he wanted Harry to snoop and see James as a pompous bully, or he really was trying to hide something unique about this experience. If he really was hiding something, as his reaction would suggest, then it is probably Lily's involvement, and most particularly, his response to her. Perhaps in hindsight he realized that at that point he had an opening to become friendly with Lily, but instead he attacked, erecting the emotional wall he still maintains. It is a painful memory for him, because he gave up his chance to be an emotionally mature person (of course, one can always grow up, but it is often hard to get past a particular event)

While I was reading all these posts I started to wonder why it was so important to Snape that Harry didn't see his memories, particularly where he called Lily a 'mudblood.' Alot of you have said that he could not love her if he called her that, but maybe that is why he put these memories into the Pensieve- because he did, in fact, love Lily, and he was so ASHAMED of calling her a mudblood that he couldn't bare for anyone to see it.

Originally posted by Ellen (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=449714#post449714))

Which is why I think it was his worst memory. I mean, his hair trigger response when James attacked suggested that this was hardly an isolated incident. The difference was Lily's attempt to save him and Snape being sure he had just blown any chance he ever had to get her to look at him as something other than a dung beetle.


Really excellent post, Ellen. Really excellent. And Dedalus and ssssalizar seem to be echoing your last point as well--that Snape chose this particular incident of harassment at the hands of the Marauders (out of many such incidents) because of Lily's involvement. I admit that this occurred to me, too.

I used to really hate the Snape/Lily/James teen triangle theory, mainly because I didn't feel it was fair of us to attribute such "angsty adolescent
rubbish" (hee hee, don't I even SOUND like him?) to Snape just to make him more human, or more vulnerable or whatever. But I have to admit it fits the younger Snape we glimpsed in OotP better than I ever would have guessed.

And there would be something deliciously ironic in finding out that Snape protects Harry not because of some halfa** debt to James, but because he's Lily's son.

Oh, and for those who believe Snape cannot love...just because someone is incapable of showing love does not mean they are incapable of feeling it.

I agree with Ellen, that Snape's immediate response to try to get back at James shows a continuing/frequent conduct on James' part to attack Snape. I am still of the opinion that Snape has had a crush on Lily (obviously unrequited), and is incredibly embarrassed that she had to not only see this happen, but rescue him, so to speak.

Severely Snapped, that is a most interesting theory that Snape could be protecting Harry because he is Lily's son. However I think that it is also likely he is doing so because of his allegience to Dumbledore.

Maybe the girl that was riding the broomstick is narcissa.

I think that snape loving lily could be very possible but also very unlikely, I mean we never got the full story on the mardurers vs. Snape but it seems to me that because of Snapes awful chilhood he turned to dark arts, and maybe he even did a few horrible things himself to make James, Sirius and others hate him...i really dont think it was a love for Lily that made that memory awful, and maybe he already did put many of his other "fights" with the mardurers before his 1st meeting with Harry...

I doubt that this is true, although it would be cool. If Snape loved or liked Lily he would never call her a mudblood, he would be happy that she stood up for him. And this would not explain his hatred for JAmes, as Lily obviously hated James until their 7th year.
Also, I think that Snape was a slytherin who was obsessed with pure bloodness (that's not a word, is it?). Even if he wanted to like LIly, he would probably prevent himself from doing do since it would go against what he believed in.

I prefer Perseus evans, it ameks mpore sense

Yeah, that Perseus Evans theory is really intriguing, isn't it? Seems awfully odd to be mere coincidence. And then there's Mark Evans, and that whole Aunt Petunia thing. I can't wait to learn more about the Evans family.

i not only like this theory, but i agree with it! i would totally ignore the Mudblood comment tho, imagine the situation he was in- if he accepted her help, that would be like admitting that he liked her. Also, the fact that Snape was jealous of James could mean even more than that- he could be even jealous of James' likes and interests.... kinda weird, but whatever. if that were the case, i feel sorry for him for having no life.

Well frankly since he called her a mudblood, i have to dought that he loved her, then agian maybe he didnt want the other purebloods to know he had fallend for a muggle born. I have to guess that Lily sticking up for snape in the memrory had not been the first time she had done it.

Maybe he did secretly like her, i mean they always seem to describe her as being pretty:bite:

Hi,

I highly doubt Snape ever loved Lily.There were dozens of other girls at Hogwarts, too. She wasn´t THE ONLY ONE. She simply had been the only one for James.
She isn´t the right type for him. She is too conservative, too light, too "good", she represense a type of woman who definetely never fits Snape´s possible ideas of a woman he would be attracted to. He was fifteen, and more brain dominated, not ruled by his hormornes as James was, sorry. hehe
He loved his DARK ARTS, he just was reading his books in the Pensieve scene, he wasn´t looking at any girl at all. He had been busy with his OWLS. Not more.
You still believe he had been jealouse about James?
Ok, this is the "truth" interpretaded by the former Marauders, but Snape´s own memories, we saw in the Pensieve, show us a completely different perspective. Why should he have been jealously of a guy who treated himlike FILTH?
Even he was nasty, as I 1000% believe in, James couldn´t have been an idol for him, that´s a childish look on the true motives of their hate for each other.

I mean the discussion about a possible Lily Snape crush becomes more and more boring. HP is no soap opera.

Boy, do I hate this theory. It's like... bad fanfiction. The "Snape loved and lost" thing has been discussed at length in the Snape thread, and frankly, I don't think that he was ever truly, deeply, hopelessly in love with anyone. Ever. Why? Because you have to at least been loved once in your life to love back. There doesn't have to be any reason for him to call Lily a mudblood except for the fact that no matter how hard she tried, no matter how honest her intentions were, she was making him feel worse than he already felt.

I do think that Snape (now) likes Lily (except for the fact that she married James and had Harry) for actually caring when he was being treated completely horrible, though. He just doesn't like her in that way.

Oh, and I'm sure that here were tons other memories in there to begin with, not just that one thought.

LadyofthePensieve: One of my pet theories is that Snape was attracted to Bella... but that's another story. :D

[QUOTE=Lestrange]Boy, do I hate this theory. It's like... bad fanfiction.

Hello ... I feel a bit silly posting in a thread nobody's been to for 4 months. But anyway, I was re-reading the Pensieve scene, and I noticed something pertinent to this thread. Two instances where Harry sees something in Snape's memory that Snape couldn't possibly have seen involve Lily. The first occurs in the OWL exam, when he sees James doodling the "LE." The second occurs when the Marauders have got Snape upside down, and his robes are over his face, and Lily's facial expression is described.

Maybe those parts of the memory are based upon Snape's emotional presumption rather than fact: he saw James doodling something and decided it had to be Lily's initials. And when the Marauders had him hanging upside down, his robes obscuring his vision, he imagined what Lily's expression might be, and that's his memory of the events that eventually got into the Pensieve.

(I'm assuming that it is Snape's memory. In one of the Pensieve threads, I know some are saying that the impossible bits are because it isn't Snape's memory.)

snape loves Lily...therefore hates harry for the fact he is the son of the one who ended up with her...
This could be true, but lets look at the facts. What evidence is there that he had anything to do with her. You could bring up the point thst she did deffend him in Snape's worst memory, but what was his reaction gain. Oh thats right, "Get away you filthy mudblood."
Are these the words of love???
Another reason people think this is true is because he hates Harry so much, but sorry to say people but he hates Harry because he hated his father.

QUOTE, Sineed: Maybe those parts of the memory are based upon Snape's emotional presumption rather than fact: he saw James doodling something and decided it had to be Lily's initials. And when the Marauders had him hanging upside down, his robes obscuring his vision, he imagined what Lily's expression might be, and that's his memory of the events that eventually got into the Pensieve. (I'm assuming that it is Snape's memory. In one of the Pensieve threads, I know some are saying that the impossible bits are because it isn't Snape's memory.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you are absolutely right!

I think people are taking the pensieve as literal truth and people's minds just don't work that way. The memories of Snape that Harry sees, regarding his father, are biased. These memories are seen through the eyes of Snape and are therefore the way Snape sees the world. (You are always the good guy in your mind.) I'm sure Harry's dad was no angel, but remember Harry was also picking on Dudley at the begining of OOTP and Harry is not a bad guy. I mentioned this in post #1079.
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11413&page=36&pp=30

Come on guys, be more open-minded!

The original theory is verified by Snape calling Lily a mudblood!!!
(Please don't stop reading, I'll try to convince you.)
The title of the chapter is "Snape's worst memory", right?
Now lean back in your chair and think about YOUR worst memory.

Did it HAPPEN TO YOU or DID YOU DO SOMETHING TO SOMEONE?
If you're older than 12-13 (no offense people, but you should have
a little life-experience for this) it's most likely that it's something
WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

Why? Because people tend to remember their good memories
and forget about bad times. BUT you can hate YOURSELF for the faults
that you have committed, especially if YOU CAN'T CHANGE WHAT HAPPENED
ANYMORE.
(Lily's dead, so Snape can't )

That's why I believe that Snape's worst memory is CALLING LILY A MUDBLOOD.

Was it that horrible what James did to him?
I mean compared to the Whomping Willow incident... thought so.

It doesn't have to mean that Snape was head over heels in love with Lily,
but he could've thought that she was cute with her green eyes.

Well, actually I think he loved her but that's for another thread.
Please stop thinking of characters as one-dimensional soap-opera characters.
There are always the shades of grey.

Siriusblue

I doubt that memory is Snape's worst in the grand scheme of things. It's just that it was loosely associated with Harry and Snape obviously didn't want him to see it.

Anyway, I'm not sure if Snape loved Lily or not. JKR has said words to the effect that Snape isn't capable of love (which I can believe). Snape was probably at his most conservative during his years at Hogwarts, so he probably hated Lily by association (through her relationship with James). He could never have truly "loved" her, though, because is seems that he genuinely hated Muggle-borns for a while. Inner conflict is a terrible thing.

Rotsie--WHAT friendship? The ice didn't begin to thaw between Lily and James until AFTER the incident discussed. I can well believe Snape was aghast that the two of them started going out and hated Lily for what he saw as her bad judgment but here's something a little odd to chew on. Snape hates everything about James and has said so with trimmings, as often as possible. But he's never drawn Lily into that discussion, NOT ONCE. Isn't that a little odd for a DE, even an ex-DE? All their friends and all their enemies see the two as a unit "You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days Potter they were meddlesome fools too." "You'll be with your dear Mudblood mother soon enough." etc. etc. etc. And for Hagrid and the members of the DA Lily & James are seen as a unit as well. Only Dumbledore might be an exception to this. So Snape's attitude of HATING James but carefully avoiding dragging Lily into it EVER or blaming her for ANYTHING (not even trusting Black as Secret-Keeper) is extraordinary. Remember, even at his most insane when he was raving about the sweetness of vengeance and Harry thanking him on bended knee he never dragged Lily into it or spoke ill of her. Never. If he hated her for any reason or any length of time this stressor was the perfect opportunity to hear all about it, yet he kept himself in check. WHY?

rotsiepost > JKR said that nobody would want Snape in love with them, and not that he's not capable of love. I understand this statement as "it would be horrible knowing that Snape is in love with you, because he's such a greasy git", but it doesn't mean for me that he couldn't be in love.

I'm not very convinced that he loved Lily, though. Still, this silence about her, when he blames everything and everyone connected with James... there is something for sure, but what?

rotsiepost > JKR said that nobody would want Snape in love with them, and not that he's not capable of love. I understand this statement as "it would be horrible knowing that Snape is in love with you, because he's such a greasy git", but it doesn't mean for me that he couldn't be in love.

I'm not very convinced that he loved Lily, though. Still, this silence about her, when he blames everything and everyone connected with James... there is something for sure, but what?

Yes I tend to agree with you here. Snape can fall in love, even though this is difficult to believe when you consider his temperant at the present time within the books. Then saying that, it does not mean that he was always moody and perhaps the reason for his angre at James Potter is due to a caring for Lily and a feeling of loosing her to James, the one that bullied him throughout his schooling years. I have a feeling that Snape did love Lily to a certain degree but was too affraid to show any such emotion infrount of some of the other students at Hogwarts during this time. It must be awful to sit back and watch someone take away a loved one and not have the nerve to do anything about it due to Snapes status and all. You can imagine him getting quite annoyed with James and himself over everything. It is no wonder that Snape turned to Voldemort as he possibly believed that he had lost everything close to him anyway, that joining the dark lords side would not make any difference to his life.

oh yes, he was hot for her. On the 2nd thought, why would he go meandering off close to James and Sirius? Hmmmm. LOL!
Seriously, i think he had a thing for her, which is probably why he never married (still thinking about that JKR quote ) lol! Yeah, who would want him? He's just so....ewww. All the jagged remarks and stuff. I can just imagine.
Snapes girl: is my butt too big in this dress?
Snape: If J.Lo is any indication of being related to you then you beat her hands down.

"Remember, even at his most insane when he was raving about the sweetness of vengeance and Harry thanking him on bended knee he never dragged Lily into it or spoke ill of her. Never. If he hated her for any reason or any length of time this stressor was the perfect opportunity to hear all about it, yet he kept himself in check. WHY?"
I agree with you completely.
Add to this that
1. Snape only looks into Harry's eyes if he wants to do some occlumency
(seeing if said the truth in previous books). Why? Because Harry has Lily's eyes.

2. Snape calls Harry "Potter", because he reminds him of James too much,
and well, James probably ruined his chances with Lily in one way or another.
I know that most teachers call him "Potter", but they tend to add "Mr" too...

3. Snape never ever remarked anything about Lily. Never.

Back to my theory of Snape's worst memory - and I think that JKR names the chapters, not Harry, so it is accurate.
It only works if you accept that Snape hated Lily at that point.
In my opinion, he started to like her after the incident.

Siriusblue

Okay, I accept 2 and 3 but I don't think the hatred works. I'd think he'd have to be invested in the situation before and he lost control--remember he's legendary for his ability to be cool and sharp and humiliate you without losing his temper (that's why PoA was so unnerving--when he goes he really loses his temper he explodes). Lily wouldn't have reacted like that if she didn't know what it meant to Snape and she knew him.

I've also posted this in another thread (in a different forum) but it seems just as relevant to this topic. Let me just start by saying that Snape did not love Lily. So what is the connection?

Two points to consider here:

1. Harrys second Occlumency lesson, in which he sees the childhood memories of Snape. One of these was the memory of a small girl watching Snape trying to mount a bucking broomstick. Who is this girl?

2. At some point after James fifth year, Lily falls in love with James. What singular event precipitates this apparent change of heart by Lily?

My theory:

The small girl in Snape's memory is Lily. There is some connection between Lily and Snape that predates their time at Hogwarts. Related? 'Girl next door'? I Don't know - but there is some connection there. She sees Snape suffering at the hands of James, as she saw him suffering at the hands of his parents as a small child. And she doesn't like it because she has known Snape all her life.

Later however, James comes to Snape's rescue following the Marauders prank which almost sends him to his death at the hands of the werewolf Lupin. Lily's opinion of James changes after this singular event.

The rest, as they say, is history.

I think you have a very good point there. I've never heard this theory before but it makes a lot of sense to me. It goes along with Lily's character. I do however, think that Snape had a slight affirmation for Lily. Not in a romantic way, but in a plutonic way.

Dave--good theory except I don't think that small girl is Lily--it really just doesn't sound like her. I'm not sure Lily ever knew about James saving Snape. I'm guessing either James told her later or she didn't know period because this is something Dumbledore would want to keep very quiet because of Lupin's condition.

I think we saw the singular event. When Severus cut the cord, Lily stopped fighting the impulse to be amused by James. Once her defenses quavered a little that was the end of the story because James had a serious crush on her and does anything and everything he can to pursue and attain what he wants. I can see Snape bieng "that awful boy" though making their connection deeper before the OWL incident.

he called Lilly a mudblood for crissake....i'm pretty confident that he didn't love her.

My mum always says "Boys tease you coz they like you!"

Furthermore we know he's never done it again and for that matter never disparaged her again. Very odd if his relationship were anything like Malfoy's the Hermione--sorry Leather & Lacers but that ship foundered before it ever weighed anchor--particularly given his penchant for pouring out every awful thing he can about James as often as he can.

Rotsie--WHAT friendship? The ice didn't begin to thaw between Lily and James until AFTER the incident discussed. I can well believe Snape was aghast that the two of them started going out and hated Lily for what he saw as her bad judgment but here's something a little odd to chew on. Snape hates everything about James and has said so with trimmings, as often as possible. But he's never drawn Lily into that discussion, NOT ONCE. Isn't that a little odd for a DE, even an ex-DE? All their friends and all their enemies see the two as a unit "You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days Potter they were meddlesome fools too." "You'll be with your dear Mudblood mother soon enough." etc. etc. etc. And for Hagrid and the members of the DA Lily & James are seen as a unit as well. Only Dumbledore might be an exception to this. So Snape's attitude of HATING James but carefully avoiding dragging Lily into it EVER or blaming her for ANYTHING (not even trusting Black as Secret-Keeper) is extraordinary. Remember, even at his most insane when he was raving about the sweetness of vengeance and Harry thanking him on bended knee he never dragged Lily into it or spoke ill of her. Never. If he hated her for any reason or any length of time this stressor was the perfect opportunity to hear all about it, yet he kept himself in check. WHY?

I never said anything about a "friendship", Jordan. :huh:

Sorry about that should have been "what relationship" since your premise was that Snape hated Lily because of her connection to James. What connection? They were enemies the day that Severus was humiliated. That might work for afterwards but not for the day we're trying to analyze. Sorry about the mix-up.

My mum always says "Boys tease you coz they like you!"

thats true. I've been privy to this when i was little and found out they liked me later. They were horrible to me though. One time I gave this boy a valentine card and he ripped it up in front of his friends and they all laughed!! I mean i was totally ****** and never talked to him again but later found out he was embaressed and actually liked me a lot. too bad for him anyway. lol. That was in grade school. yeah, I was a bit forward.

They do but i wonder along the lines of prejudice. the word mudblood, and let's say in modern time, a boy called you a S_ut or a B_? or some racial slur, would that mean he liked you? i'm still confused about that part. I dont know because if he was in front of his "other" friends like that boy who ripped up my valentine card to show off that he was cool and he wasn't going to display that he was all mushy over me then maybe. I dont really know. I can't explain why people act the way they do....only trying to remember my own experience in grade school and junior high. It was a most difficult time and very much rampant in hormonal and confusement.

jordmundt6, i dislike how you say the D/Hr are sunk and not even possible because at this point ANYthing is possible since we don't know the true outcome of pairings (since you refer to Leather and lace) so as long as NO one knows except JKR, then just leave it be that it isn't sunk until its set in stone!

like i said, i think he sort of liked lily. maybe after the incident because he probably never had anyone stand up for him ever. it probably put him to see lily in another light. I would like to see how he changed from being a DE and if it had any connection to the fact that it revolved around lily.

I dont think Snape loved Lily because he called her a mudblood. He hated mudbloods he even joined the death eaters.

Hmmzz..the romantic side of me would be inclined to think that snape did have an interest in lily.as many others have pointed out, he refrained from saying anything negative about lily. BUT than again, that could be out of respect for the memory of harry's dead mother who never laughed at him and stuck up for him in front of the whole school. he probably regretted calling lily a mudblood.

Sorry about that should have been "what relationship" since your premise was that Snape hated Lily because of her connection to James. What connection? They were enemies the day that Severus was humiliated. That might work for afterwards but not for the day we're trying to analyze. Sorry about the mix-up.

Sorry, I should have clarified. :)

I think Snape has probably always disliked Lily for a variety of reasons. From their first to sixth years, he probably disliked her because she was a Muggle-born and therefore wasn't "worthy" of being taught magic (according to Snape's warped logic at the time, that is). I think he probably really began to loathe Lily when she started seeing James, though. I think Snape's attitude towards Lily before she started seeing James was more an indirect feeling of ill will, rather a specific vendetta, or anything like that. After their relationship started, however, I'm sure things became more focussed and very personal.

Hi all . I think u have some interesting theories but....i think (JKR)tries to trick us!!i think the truth is behind the anagram of snapes name ..."severus snape"<------Perseus evans or persues evans".........EVANS!!!!!lillys surname is evans!!!!!so snape could be harrys uncle or something....thats all i have to say.If u have a different opinion plz tell me!!! :cool:

Well Dumbledore said Petunia was Lily's last living relative. Now Mark Evans is younger than Harry but Snape is not. He was alive when the spell was put in place.

I never understood how the theory that Snape loved Lily came into place.

I think that, if Snape were a normal person that had a normal life, it would be possible. But he clearly didn't. He grew up with out any love, so that's how he lives his life. But if you give it a second thought, it sounds kind of likely. ::Shruggs:: I don't know, I think I'm confusing myself. :shrug:

I think that SNAPE have feelings for Lily but I doubt that it's love...

Love, why would he love Lily? Because I got the impression that he couldnt stand her. Infact she was trying to be sympathetic towards him but he kept resisting and fighting her, if you call that love then so be it.

Rotsie--I can see this being valid but there's a huge hole here. If he disliked her and held conventional (hmm, wrong word--elitist?) views of Muggleborns why is it that he didn't lash out at her when she tried to help him. As many times as I've looked at this scene, I'd never really even considered this, but take another look. He doesn't badmouth her until James makes his snide remark about Severus being lucky that Lily was there to intercede for him. Severus was lashing out at JAMES in his pride, trying to demonstrate that he was a threat in his own right and should be taken seriously, not underestimated. He also didn't yell or curse up a storm when James demanded an apology (the height of hypocrisy). He didn't respond at all. He seems to be the one who's suddenly departed. He's gone. He doesn't say a word and doesn't react at all to James pointing his wand at him (unusual considering their history, no?) Also, when James vents his spleen at being rebuffed by implementing the same curse he just removed Snape says absolutely nothing. There is no yell of helples rage, no stream of curses, nothing. Is he ACCEPTING it as punishment for what he said? I doubt it, but it's just been elevated to a distinct possibility. Also, Snape has never said a single word against Lily to Harry. In all the disdain, hatred, and disparagement he heaps on James, even at his MOST insane, he NEVER EVER EVER drags Lily into the conversation. He is the only person so far who separates the couple. I don't think he loathed her after she started dating James. In fact, I think if he assigned any blame, it all went on James' shoulders. Very distinctive, especially for a DE since DEs usually treat Lily and James more or less the same (Lucius' description of them as "meddlesome fools" is typical) and tend to regard Lily as worse than James (pick a speech from Voldemort or Bellatrix). See what I mean?

thinkpink--How's this? Snape wasn't resisting Lily, he wasn't fighting her, he was fighting James. He came up with the ugliest thing he could think of to assert his independence and then when Lily cut ties seemed to stop reacting to the situation. What would happen if Hermione and Harry had a parting of the ways. Not a tiff or a fight like they sometimes have where they both have baggage for awhile and then they work it out. What if, for some reason, Hermione said to Harry "You disgust me. I don't ever want to see or speak to you again." How would Harry react?

If Snape did have a crush on Lily, it'd be very tragic. I don't really think that he would though, because he did seem to have a bad attitude toward her because she was a "mudblood." Also, his ego as a 15 year old was probably severly damaged when she tried to stand up for him, which would lead more towards hate than love.

I am a long-time advocate of the theory that Snape was in love with Lily. It explains a lot of things. It explains why he hated James so much. It explains why he would hate Harry, even though he was Lily's child, because she died saving him. Most importantly, it is the best reason I have come up with for Dumbledore's confidence that Snape would never go back to Voldemort. If Voldemort killed the woman that he loved, probably the only one he ever loved, that would explain why he turned his back on the Death Eaters.

I think that theory took a bit of a hit in OoP, because of the "mudblood" comment and because James was portrayed as having given him more reason to dislike him than had previously been revealed. Nonetheless, I think he could have fallen for her even if he refused to admit to the Slytherins that he could have feelings for someone that was born of Muggles. I doubt that she felt anything more for him than sympathy for anyone who was the victim of bullying, but there may well have been more that happened that Harry never saw that would endear her to Snape.

"thinkpink--How's this? Snape wasn't resisting Lily, he wasn't fighting her, he was fighting James. He came up with the ugliest thing he could think of to assert his independence and then when Lily cut ties seemed to stop reacting to the situation. What would happen if Hermione and Harry had a parting of the ways. Not a tiff or a fight like they sometimes have where they both have baggage for awhile and then they work it out. What if, for some reason, Hermione said to Harry "You disgust me. I don't ever want to see or speak to you again." How would Harry react?[/QUOTE]


Well, first of all you have to remember that there in different houses, so theres one reason why he doesnt love her, second of all, its not her fault James was making fun of him infact she started sticking up for him, and he responds by calling her a mudblood, which is in my opinion completly random. And you say its because he wants to show his independence, in that case dont say he loved her he could have liked her. I understand that your sayiing that he doesnt need anyone to help him through this, but if he LOVED her he would have said something more...i dont know..something less random and mean! Besides if he did like her, wouldnt he be more sympa towards Harry, because that is all he has left of Lily? Even if harry is the son of James, your saying he loved her.
Are you comparing James with Lily? What does that have to do with Snape's hatred or love towards Lily?

"He doesn't badmouth her until James makes his snide remark about Severus being lucky that Lily was there to intercede for him."

Well, thats because he was jinxed, with the impediment jinx, remmember, besides that, its kinda hard to say something when you have soapsuds in your mouth. He was choking, and gaging!

I am a long-time advocate of the theory that Snape was in love with Lily. It explains a lot of things. It explains why he hated James so much. It explains why he would hate Harry, even though he was Lily's child, because she died saving him. Most importantly, it is the best reason I have come up with for Dumbledore's confidence that Snape would never go back to Voldemort. If Voldemort killed the woman that he loved, probably the only one he ever loved, that would explain why he turned his back on the Death Eaters.

I think that theory took a bit of a hit in OoP, because of the "mudblood" comment and because James was portrayed as having given him more reason to dislike him than had previously been revealed. Nonetheless, I think he could have fallen for her even if he refused to admit to the Slytherins that he could have feelings for someone that was born of Muggles. I doubt that she felt anything more for him than sympathy for anyone who was the victim of bullying, but there may well have been more that happened that Harry never saw that would endear her to Snape.

I like that theory simply because I'm a hopeless romantic. :D

But seriously, I think Snape having loved Lily would add a lot of drama to the story, and would enhance the whole tortured-soul quality in Snape, but I'm not sure J.K. will want to take that soap opera route.
In any case, this is how I've always imagined the scenario: (I love making up countless fan fictions in my head y'know? :blush: )

Snape and Lily both start Hogwarts students as little innocent, wide-eyed kids. Snape is the instant oddball in school, garnering the dislike of many pupils, thus leading to a continuous bout of teasing and bullying. I'm thinking that in one of these scenarios, Lily comes and rescues Snape. They instantly become acquaintences, and Snape starts to slowly develop a crush on her. She is, after all, the only kind soul to give him the time of day. However, somewhere along the line, something happens to sever those ties of friendship. The most feasible reason I can think of for their falling out is that Snape's very pureblood and very proud parents find out he's friends with a "mudblood" and adamantly forbid him from ever interacting with her again. They poison and brainwash his still malleable and gullible mind into seeing her as nothing but trash and unworthy of his company. And it works. Snape, against his better will, personally breaks the bond they had built and attempts to erase her from his mind. As the years pass, however, his feelings don't change. Though his outward projection of dislike remains intact, his inner emotions fail to hide his true feelings. He can't deny it to himself any longer, but he can't admit it to anyone either, much less his parents.
Fast forward to time of Pensieve incident, after Snape calls Lily a mudblood. When Jame and Co. are done humiliating Snape, he retreats into the furthest corners of the school. Someone follows him, however. And so it is then that the confrontation between Lily and Snape ensues. Lily demands to know why he continues to be the way he is, why he shields himself from the whole world and rejects everyone? (think of one of those dramatic moments with the cheesy music playing in the background) She says that she wants to try and help him, like she did before, and to stop people from bullying him. She then asks him why he refused her friendship so long ago? Why he suddenly cut ties with her and transformed into just another prejudiced Slytherin? She tells him that she knows how vulnerable he truly is inside, and that she is willing to forgive him and be his friend again. Snape, being the arrogant and proud dope that he is, rejects this kind gesture of friendship. The way he sees it, his place in society
is sealed, and he knows that he will never be able to be with someone like Lily Evans so long as he remains a pureblood. But he never forgot the day that Lily Evans came up to him and offered her kind and loving friendship once again. He realized that he had lost his chance forever, but also knew that he would never love another woman like she. So he continued to live with his bottled and tormenting emotions, knowing that he could never express how he truly felt for the only girl who had ever been kind to him, and accepting the fact that he has to lose her to his worse nemesis: James Potter. And so, Snape's Worse Memory became complete. :D

Rotsie--I can see this being valid but there's a huge hole here. If he disliked her and held conventional (hmm, wrong word--elitist?) views of Muggleborns why is it that he didn't lash out at her when she tried to help him. As many times as I've looked at this scene, I'd never really even considered this, but take another look. He doesn't badmouth her until James makes his snide remark about Severus being lucky that Lily was there to intercede for him. Severus was lashing out at JAMES in his pride, trying to demonstrate that he was a threat in his own right and shouldn't be taken seriously. He also didn't yell or curse up a storm when James demanded an apology (the height of hypocrisy). He didn't respond at all. He seems to be the one who's suddenly departed. He's gone. He doesn't say a word and doesn't react at all to James pointing his wand at him (unusual considering their history, no?) Also, when James vents his spleen at being rebuffed by implementing the same curse he just removed Snape says absolutely nothing. There is no yell of helples rage, no stream of curses, nothing. Is he ACCEPTING it as punishment for what he said? I doubt it, but it's just been elevated to a distinct possibility. Also, Snape has never said a single word against Lily to Harry. In all the disdain, hatred, and disparagement he heaps on James, even at his MOST insane, he NEVER EVER EVER drags Lily into the conversation. He is the only person so far who separates the couple. I don't think he loathed her after she started dating James. In fact, I think if he assigned any blame, it all went on James' shoulders. Very distinctive, especially for a DE since DEs usually treat Lily and James more or less the same (Lucius' description of them as "meddlesome fools" is typical) and tend to regard Lily as worse than James (pick a speech from Voldemort or Bellatrix). See what I mean?

thinkpink--How's this? Snape wasn't resisting Lily, he wasn't fighting her, he was fighting James. He came up with the ugliest thing he could think of to assert his independence and then when Lily cut ties seemed to stop reacting to the situation. What would happen if Hermione and Harry had a parting of the ways. Not a tiff or a fight like they sometimes have where they both have baggage for awhile and then they work it out. What if, for some reason, Hermione said to Harry "You disgust me. I don't ever want to see or speak to you again." How would Harry react?

Wow. That was a good post. :) Very good.

Pretty good . Ohh daytime soap crashes into nightime falls into Hogwart (High) :shrug: I have never cared for the exaggerated romantic urban myth "Poor oddball boy in high school/ middle school "fall in love ' with the popular girl " :scared: too made for tv movie cross between Danielle Steel & Judy Blume :upset: we know the kids are isolated and Hogwarts is a small school the kids probably had "crushes" or I as I prefer "calf or puppy love " feelings(o.k horny works too) on boys/girlsin diffrent houses they would not touch with a 10 foot pole . Until JK can prove it in book 6 or 7 that it was at least a rejected friendship between the angelic Lilly and Severus I can't buy into him being the pining away for her during school and even in death. Maybe the reason he dosen't speak ill /poorly of Lilly in front of Harry is because she meant so little to him ? If you don't bad mouth classmates or co/workers does that mean your secretly in love with all of them too :sigh: being first, the girlfriend then wife of James just didn't bring out the " oh my aching heart I'll swear I'm going to die "feeling inside Severus even as a adult.
Kittyboy:no:

GryffindorGr--Thanks for the compliment, I've corrected the rather huge error in there I combined "shouldn't be underestimated" and "should be taken seriously" into the self-contradicting "shouldn't be taken seriously." It's fixed now, though.:)

thinkpink--I'm sure that's an answer, I'm just not sure it's an answer to me. If you look at my post again the point was that Snape was lashing out at JAMES not Lily. He said the ugliest thing he could think of to hurt James and didn't think through the consequences. The soap was in response to a stream of curses, jinxes, and hexes that he yelled at James after his wand had been liberated. When Lily washed her hands of the situation Severus' mouth and tongue were in no way impeded. Yet, he's suddenly stopped responding to everything. He doesn't even respond when James levels his wand at him and demands an apology for Lily. He doesn't start yelling and cursing when James repeats the curse he just lifted. It's like he no longer cares about it. Why? What happened between the lifting of the curse that had provoked him so much and its re-implementation? As for the different houses thing--Are you kidding? How many couples have we seen formed cross-house or cross-school. Percy-Penny, Ginny-Michael, Harry-Cho, Cedric-Cho, Fleur-Roger, Viktor-Hermione. Plus, do we know for sure that Lily was in Gryffindor? I think she was, but I don't remember, did Hagrid mention it in the Diagon Alley or Keeper of the Keys chapters of SS? Anyway, the fact that they are from different houses proves nothing. And again, notice that none of his anger is really directed at Lily. Never has been and never will be (barring something completely unforseen in Books 6 and 7). Geez, I sound like I'm singing "Oh, it's sad when a love affair dies..." from Evita.

If Voldemort killed the woman that he loved, probably the only one he ever loved, that would explain why he turned his back on the Death Eaters.



Recall that in GoF, DD says that Snape turned his back on the DEs, becoming a spy for the good guys "at great personal risk" when LV was still powerful; ie, BEFORE the death of James and Lily.

Perhaps your right jordmund, this is what im thinkin...


If you rearrange the letters in "Severus Snape" you get "Persues Evans." If Lily's last name is Evans then maybe they were both death eaters together?

Snape could have had a bit of a crush on Lily.
And he was humiliated in front of her and alot of others. Everyone was laughing at him.
He had to gain some face somehow. Calling her a "mudblood" made everyone look at him somewhat differently.
By calling her a "mudblood" he sealed any chance of ever winning her heart and crushed his own crush on her in the process.
If he did have a crush on her, it would help explain part of why he can't stand Harry so much. He liked Lily, who tried to defend him, making him look uncapeable of standing up for himself, was forced to put her down in front of everyone, making her hate him in return.
What if Snape was really Harry's father? What if Snape and Lily had something going on and James came in and stole Lily's heart in a way that Snape never could? And Lily was pregnant with Snape's child at the time but didn't know it until after her and James were married?

GryffindorGr--Thanks for the compliment, I've corrected the rather huge error in there I combined "shouldn't be underestimated" and "should be taken seriously" into the self-contradicting "shouldn't be taken seriously." It's fixed now, though.:)

thinkpink--I'm sure that's an answer, I'm just not sure it's an answer to me. If you look at my post again the point was that Snape was lashing out at JAMES not Lily. He said the ugliest thing he could think of to hurt James and didn't think through the consequences. The soap was in response to a stream of curses, jinxes, and hexes that he yelled at James after his wand had been liberated. When Lily washed her hands of the situation Severus' mouth and tongue were in no way impeded. Yet, he's suddenly stopped responding to everything. He doesn't even respond when James levels his wand at him and demands an apology for Lily. He doesn't start yelling and cursing when James repeats the curse he just lifted. It's like he no longer cares about it. Why? What happened between the lifting of the curse that had provoked him so much and its re-implementation? As for the different houses thing--Are you kidding? How many couples have we seen formed cross-house or cross-school. Percy-Penny, Ginny-Michael, Harry-Cho, Cedric-Cho, Fleur-Roger, Viktor-Hermione. Plus, do we know for sure that Lily was in Gryffindor? I think she was, but I don't remember, did Hagrid mention it in the Diagon Alley or Keeper of the Keys chapters of SS? Anyway, the fact that they are from different houses proves nothing. And again, notice that none of his anger is really directed at Lily. Never has been and never will be (barring something completely unforseen in Books 6 and 7). Geez, I sound like I'm singing "Oh, it's sad when a love affair dies..." from Evita.

you're welcome, Jordmundt6
and i love this analysis, you went really in another POV and actually hit it on the nail. Cool. That is true about Snapes reaction to Lily.
may i quote you on this in the future?

Certainly. Anyway, let's bring this one back to the first page for more discussion. Anyone who does not believe in Snape's attachment to Lily care to comment on his never badmouthing her to Harry?

This is an old theory I read about some years ago on this forum...
Did Snape love Lilly? Was he jealous of James?
In my opinion the new scene does nothing to support this but I think it is still not impossible...
I like this theory though I don't know why...If I hadn't read OotP, then yeah, I'd say that it could be a possibility. But after OotP's release and we saw the pensieve scene, there's no way that this theory has credibility. I mean, he called Lily a mudblood, something you don't do to someone you like.

Anyone who does not believe in Snape's attachment to Lily care to comment on his never badmouthing her to Harry?
How about because from our knowledge Lily didn't bully Snape? James & Sirius were the only ones that bullied Snape, hence the reason for Snape to badmouth Harry's father. If Lily weren't apart of it, then why would he? People grow and change, and I can see that Snape may have grown and matured to tolerate mudbloods, he teaches them.

Sarmi

Well Dumbledore said Petunia was Lily's last living relative. Now Mark Evans is younger than Harry but Snape is not. He was alive when the spell was put in place.

(referring to the Perseus Evans theory)

And another thing against that is, Snape comes up as "Severus Snape" on the Marauder's Map, and we know the Marauder's Map is never wrong. If his real name was Perseus Evans (or Regulus Black, as another theory has it), it would come up as Perseus Evans or Regulus Black or whatever the heck it was. This could be a mistake on JKR's part, but it's a fairly large one and I don't see that happening. So, I think Severus Snape is Severus Snape.

I never understood how the theory that Snape loved Lily came into place.

Amen.

Anyone who does not believe in Snape's attachment to Lily care to comment on his never badmouthing her to Harry?

He doesn't really have any devastating insults that would really apply to her and be true. Snape's insults are always true, from his point of view, anyway.

"And your mother... married... your father!"

Wow. How horribly insulting. Not. Which is why Snape's never mentioned her. I guess he could have called her a Mudblood again, but that would have been a bit childish.

He could have liked her or even loved her. I just don't think there's any evidence.

-Mierin Eronaile

I think it's entirely plausible that Snape had some sort of crush on Lily, but I doubt that it really went anywhere. As for his "mudblood" comment, Snape may have just been so caught up in the moment that he spoke before thinking (he does tend to do this). He may not have actually meant to insult Lily, but he isn't the sort of person to apologise. Frankly I think something else is up with Snape instead of the "Perseus Evans" theories...I just don't know what it is yet.

We need JKR to give us clues in book 6 & 7 . Remember when Harry breaks into Snapes memory ? We see a young Snape sitting in a dark bedroom shooting flies He might have pretending they were James or even Sirius but he most certainly was not drooling, crying over a picture of Lilly Evans "Oh Lilly I love you sooooooo much ..I wish your were all mine "
:grumble: Hagrid often poked about the school grounds and is pretty good at keeping secrets from Harry, but after 5 books if he had ever seen Severus and Lilly hang out together in the Great Hall after/ or in between classes etc. he would have slipped and mentiond it .Maybe Dumbledore used a memory charm on Hadrid to keep the secret of them being friends or whatever from Harry but I doubt it.
Kittyboy:no:

Why did he either have to love her or hate? Couldn't he just have been indifferent?

I think Snape couldn't miss his chance to insult Lily, since he was probably embarassed enough as it was without being helped by a "Mudblood" (and he didn't want to be beaten did he?) but I don't think that proves he fancied her, just because he didn't say more than he did. It was James and his best friends he hated, he only had to half-heartedly spurt out insults to Lily. But he isn't like Draco, he wouldn't insult everyone from his high-horse because he was a loner and wouldn't be cocky enough to do that. That's why I think he didn't start attacking Lily right away ... because he isn't Draco Malfoy! He was just a weird little boy who nobody liked, rather than a toff of a little boy who likes nobody else.

Him not mentioning Lily in recent days isn't proof, either. Why would him not mentioning her mean he loved her? There were more in the year than James and co., Snape and Lily, yet Snape doesn't talk about any of the others except James (and recently Sirius, as much) either ... and he didn't fancy every one in his year except them! The reason he doesn't keep going on about her could just be because he didn't hate her, and that doesn't necessarily mean he fancied her.

You know, a couple weeks ago I would have believed he liked her romantically but now I'm not so sure. I think he admired her strength and courage, but other than that, no. He absolutely respected her but there was no love in that area, not romantically. It would prove why he would pick on Harry (his memory of how abused he was by James) because if he loved Lily, despite all that James did to him, he would remember Lily through Harry's eyes.

He just hated James like Harry hates Draco and viseversa. I really really really doubt that Snape loved lilly. After all back then Snape hated mudbloods, and Lily was one of them. After the way James treated Snape in that pensive, im not really suprised why Snape loathed him so much.

In this thread the name Mark Evans has been refered to. I'm sorry but I cannot for the life of me remember any character by that name so I'm going to guess that he was either mentioned in passing or a member of DA. Or was her Ginny's boyfriend? I really can't remember. That probably doesn't show very well on how well I read the 5th book. Oh well.

The reason I'm bringing up a character I can't remember is I once heard about a theory that Aunt Petunia and Lily's parents were squibs and that is why they (her parents) were so happy she was a wich. Well what if they were? Wouldn't that mean that Snape could have had the last name Evans and not have been related to Lily. Perhaps there are a whole bunch of Evanses that would not consider themselves related to Lily because her part of the family had been squibs for so long. After all Ron mentioned he had relative who was an accountant of something that they didn't mention.

Overall I really don't think that Lily and Snape are related. I do think there is a connection between them, but I don't think they are related. At least not by blood... Perhaps they're related by marriage... But that would most likely be from James's side of the family.

Okay short response--hopefully. Mark Evans is a 10-year-old in Little Whinging who Dudley used as a punching bag because, according to Dud--"He cheeked me." Remind us of anyone? Most of the victims he chooses are terrified runts that other members of the gang (like Piers) corral for Dudley to clobber. It appears young Mark did slightly more. It appears that he did not quail at the ogre's approach but actually insulted him and did it blatantly enough for Dudley to catch on. That isn't a wise move with someone who has a short temper, boxing training, and weighs 5 times as much as you do, but it does show guts. Anyway, that's who Mark Evans is. He's mentioned by Harry in passing in the first chapter of OotP. Now, the other part. GryffindorGr--You really think Severus would forgive and forget because Lily's eyes are staring at him out of Harry's face? When Harry looks so much like James that Harry HIMSELF mistakes can't tell the two apart at a distance? I think that Severus continues trying to save Harry to honor Lily's memory (the blood debt was paid in spades in Harry's first year). But Harry looking that much like his father--Lily's eyes staring out of James' face with all that hate in them could be a further reminder of his worst memory (which we got a clip of in OotP). A reminder of how he, Severus, made it possible for James to steal Lily's heart and convince her to marry him. If anything, I'd think that there's a good chance that Harry's eyes engender more hatred from Snape than anything else because it's a mark of how he either lost Lily to James or opened the door for James.

GryffindorGr--You really think Severus would forgive and forget because Lily's eyes are staring at him out of Harry's face? When Harry looks so much like James that Harry HIMSELF mistakes can't tell the two apart at a distance? I think that Severus continues trying to save Harry to honor Lily's memory (the blood debt was paid in spades in Harry's first year). But Harry looking that much like his father--Lily's eyes staring out of James' face with all that hate in them could be a further reminder of his worst memory (which we got a clip of in OotP). A reminder of how he, Severus, made it possible for James to steal Lily's heart and convince her to marry him. If anything, I'd think that there's a good chance that Harry's eyes engender more hatred from Snape than anything else because it's a mark of how he either lost Lily to James or opened the door for James.

No of course not. that was my point. I believe he has not gotten over the pain and suffering under James taunts and tricks. And I wholeheartedly agree. He saves Harry because of Lily, but I dont believe it has anything to do with romance. (between him and Lily BUT with James and Lily...wow great point there)
Interesting. Yes, good analysis. You make excellent points, Jordmundt6 and I commend you for your great POV observation. :)

I always hypothesised right back to reading PS/SS that Snape might have had some feelings for Lily (hence the fact that he never insults her to Harry's face in the way he insults James). As theories go, it isn't nailed on but it's still a definite possibility, and fits with what we've seen.

Actually seeing Snape's memories in OotP reinforced that possibility - the bucking broomstick reference, and the scene where Lily defends him. (Yes, he lashes out in his humiliation by calling her a mudblood, but being torn in this way isn't exactly unknown among those with specific likings which contradict general prejudices about a particular group.)

Also (apologies if this has been posted already, I just read the first and last pages of the thread) JKR was noticeably evasive when asked about the theory by Jeremy Paxman in the BBC Newsnight interview:


JEREMY PAXMAN: Are we going to discover anything more about Snape ?

JK ROWLING: Yes.

JEREMY PAXMAN: And Harry's mother? Did he have a crush on Harry's mother or unrequited love or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: Hence his animosity to Harry?

JEREMY PAXMAN: Yes.

JK ROWLING: You speculate?

JEREMY PAXMAN: I speculate, yes, I'm just asking whether you can tell us.

JK ROWLING: No I can't tell you. But you do find out a lot more about Snape and quite a lot more about him actually.

I don't know whether Snape liked Lily, but I think James tortured Snape because he was jealous when Lily stood up for Snape in front of him.

It could be possible that Snape had a crush on Lily. Maybe Lily stood up for him because of that, when James tortured him. And maybe James tortured Snape because of that. This question really bothers your mind . . .

I don't think he liked Lily, even if he did it would of been a mere crush IMO given the way Snape treated her during that scene in OOTP. I think Snape was rather more jealous of James's abilities and also his popularity. From what we saw of Snape's childhood he seemed pretty much neglected from his parents and also in friends and this is one of the reasons why he depises James so much is that no-one loved Snape and still doesn't (well I don't think anyone does). He has probably never really had anybody care for him or befriended him in his life and was jealous of James because of this, likewise this is why IMO he depises Harry as well not only just because he is James's son but because like his father, Harry, from Snapes POV is treated as 'special' and loved by many because he is famous. I not sure whether Snape dislikes Hermione as well because of her 'know-it-all-attitude' at times because it possibly reminded him of himself during Hogwarts (as shown in the OWL tests when he was trying to remember stuff etc.).Whether or not Lily had a part in Snape's attitudes towards James and the Marauders is certainly pausible though.

I also think due to Snape's childhood and life which seemed full of neglectance and no friends probably led him to being a Death Eater. He was so lonely he probably wondered why not join the Dark Lord, there he could gain power as well as possibly make friends who had the same attitude (towards purebloods) at that time as himself. But when Snape (this is just theory and MO) overheard the first part of the prophecy and was taken out of the Hogs Head Dumbledore caught up with Snape but saw in him that there was still good in him (very cliched I know) and along with Snape's debt that he owed to James for saving his life, Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance to redeem himself as being a spy for Dumbledore.

So after all that did Snape really love Lily? I don't think he did unless it was from afar in years 6 and 7 at Hogwarts because it didn't really seem like Snape had much contact with Lily unless from afar. And even if Snape did, IMO it would be definately a one-way thing i.e. Snape > Lily.

To be honest i think that Snape was totally in love with Lily, he acted like an idiot calling her a mudblood, but isn't that a very 15yr old boy-with-a-crush thing to do?
I'd take the theory so far as to speculate that Lily was the reason Snape turned against Voldy, Lily and James knew Voldy was after them, the information was leaked, Snape turned spy for Dumbledore about a year before Voldys' downfall.. Just as Harry was born (he was one year old on the night Voldemort came to kill him)
The timing is just too perfect, also it would explain why Snape hates Harry (he's James' son) but also why he feels protective of him (refereeing the quidditch match, legumens lessons etc.) because he's Lilies' son aswell. This would make Snape very conflicted and even angrier (if possible) Everytime he looks at Harry he sees the eyes of the woman he loves in the body of the man he hated. I'd be pretty ****** too.

I'd take the theory so far as to speculate that Lily was the reason Snape turned against Voldy, Lily and James knew Voldy was after them, the information was leaked, Snape turned spy for Dumbledore about a year before Voldys' downfall.. Just as Harry was born (he was one year old on the night Voldemort came to kill him)
The timing is just too perfect

Yes, it works beautifully, doesn't it? The theory's still speculative, of course, but the things we find out in OotP now give some solid reasons for it to be plausible. Trelawney makes the prophecy, Voldemort learns about it, then sets out to find the boy concerned and kill him. Snape learns about this (perhaps being asked to take part), is revolted, and changes sides.

Ok, first I'd just like to say I feel very silly for not knowing who Mark Evans was... very silly...

Anyways, the theory that Snape liked or even loved Lily definately holds water; even if its only a little bit :) . It might even been that it was Lily who liked or loved Snape. Eventually she got tired of getting the cold shoulder from him and fell for James who had always been a bit interested and definately nicer. Snape would later have realised how stupid he had been and been upset with himself, Lily and/or James forever after. Poor guy.... Then along comes Harry, who reminds him of many of his most painful emotions/memories.

The problem is we know so little about Snape and Lily that it is near impossible to determine very much about either of them. As I said before (in an earlier post) there is definately a connection between Snape and Lily.

BTW - SnorkackCatcher is there any way you could post a link to the interview you are referencing. I would love to read it. Thanks.

I really don't see how Lily could have had a thing for Snape unless there's a part of him that we've never seen.

Snape definitely could have had a crush on Lily. He has an odd way of showing it in any event. However, if we look back into OotP on page 637 (American) and read the conversation between Harry and Cho, Harry seems to be venting anger on Cho very similar to the way Snape was on Lily. It might be a stretch, but I think it's odd how similar Snape and Harry actually are. That's not popular, but if you compare the facts, it shines through. What was Snape's best subject? Defense Against the Dark Arts. What's Harry's? The same. They had similar situations growing up as well from what Snape's memory revealed, except that Harry was mistreated by his Aunt and Uncle, not his mom and dad.

If I can make even a bigger stretch and entertain the idea that Snape could be related to Lily's family, I want to compare Mark Evans to Snape. He has the same attitude that Snape displays, and he is also subject to Dudley beating him up. He's described to look similar to Snape as well. So... If this Evans boy is related to Harry's mother's family, meaning Aunt Petunia included, and is also possibly related to Snape, we have one HUGE circle. (And it's probably just a smoke circle, but wasn't that fun?)

BTW - SnorkackCatcher is there any way you could post a link to the interview you are referencing. I would love to read it. Thanks.

Certainly, here it is:

BBC Newsnight interview (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3004594.stm)

There's a whole archive of JKR interviews at:

Quick Quotes (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/)

I really don't see how Lily could have had a thing for Snape unless there's a part of him that we've never seen.


If Lily ever had any feelings to return to Snape, which I doubt, they were shown in OOTP when she is yelling at James for picking on him.

Or maybe she was just nice...

i think this theory would support why snape resents harry so much. he's jealous that lily chose james over him.

And, in his estimation, it cost her her life. He could even resent Harry for that--his survival necessitated Lily's death. Round and round we go, and where we stop, nobody knows.

This is such an interesting topic! It goes on and on and on.

Thank you for posting the links SnorkackCatcher. :)

I think all signs are pointing to yes on this one right now. JKR's evasive answer on the topic definitely leaves the door open, and she's also said it would be terrible to be loved by Snape and we would find out why she feels that way in Book 7. Makes it sound like Snape did love someone at some point and no good came of it.

Another really big clue which someone pointed out in a Snape essay is that when Snape sees Lily in a memory he visibly pales - I can't quote the passage, but that's a pretty distinctive reaction that we don't see from Snape in response to many other things.

It could also explain a big topic of contention: why being hung upside down by James was Snape's worst memory as opposed to his memory of becoming a death eater or doing death eater things. I have always thought it wasn't that James' acts were more terrible than the death eater stuff but rather, b/c that day must have changed a direction in Snape's life.

So here's my theory of what may have happened: Snape is madly deeply in love with Lily, who is kind to him when no one else is. She doesn't feel the same way, and he's never told her how he feels, but she is an inherently good person who probably treats him better than any of the other students at Hogwarts. Who knows, maybe they're potions partners. When Snape is being humiliated by James, she comes along - the last person he wants to have see him upside down with his ratty underwear showing - and Snape lashes out at her, either intentionally to drive her away or b/c he's so enraged by the moment he loses control [and people do say really awful, terrible things to the people they love sometimes, even hateful things].

After that, Lily cuts all ties with Snape and no longer wants anything to do with him. Her well of kindness dries up. Snape officially has no friends among the students at Hogwarts. Snape either signs up with the death eaters b/c he specifically wants to show her he's strong and powerful or get revenge on her or the Marauders, or he's just easy prey for Riddle's promises of grandeur when he has no other prospects for happiness.

There are a lot of possible variations on this theme, but it would explain Snape's hatred of Harry (who represents everything his sworn enemy James had and he didn't), why that memory is his worst and why he joined the Death Eaters. And, if Snape did love Lily, I suspect we'll find out she also had something to do with why he quit. Not only does it work with the groundwork that's already there, but it's tidy. It wraps up a bunch of loose ends without introducing a ton of new characters or situations, which would be cumbersome in just 2 remaining books.

When does he visibly pale seeing Lily in a memory? am trying to remember where that might be.
A few people have said it's wildly unlikely that she'd fall for him while they were at school, but what about afterwards? After all the 'dark, gothic' type is often rather more attractive once not a teenager any more :) (and yes am indeed making biased statement seeing as automatically picture him like Alan Rickman now). I know the story is, Lilly and James fall in love at 17 stay together etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean they stayed together all along, how do we know she was never involved with Snape? Another argument against that I suppose, would be if he'd become a death eater the minute he left school, but even then you've got leeway... Lilly didn't have to be a saint at 17/18 after all. If he left school, got even better at dark arts and gained a pile of self-assurance with it..

all this is mostly just wishful thinking really, after all as many people have pointed out, just because the central characters all knew each other from school doesn't mean their relationships etc all had to be with each other. And people focus on Lilly as the romantic interest, not just because she's Harry's mother but also she's the only woman mentioned in their age group. but it's an interesting topic to speculate on.

apologies if am repeating ideas already mentioned, am new here :)

Another possible support for this theory is the relevance of Harry's eyes to the plot. JK Rowling has specifically confirmed that Harry's having his mother's eyes is important - yet this is a book where the power of choice is emphasized far beyond the power of blood kinship. It would seem odd, therefore, for Harry's eyes to contain some crucial, hereditary ability exclusive to people with a particular type of eye. It isn't impossible, yet it seems unlikely.
So why are Harry's eyes (and their similarity to Lily's) important? My hypothesis is that, at some point, an explanation of Snape's feelings for Lily will end with the realization - on Harry's part or told explicity by another character - that Snape hates him so much, not because he resembles his father, but because everytime Snape looks at Harry, he sees Lily's eyes on James's face, a resemblance that taunts him.

Very interesting thread, I think I'll join in...

A few people have said it's wildly unlikely that she'd fall for him while they were at school, but what about afterwards? After all the 'dark, gothic' type is often rather more attractive once not a teenager any more :) (and yes am indeed making biased statement seeing as automatically picture him like Alan Rickman now). I know the story is, Lilly and James fall in love at 17 stay together etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean they stayed together all along, how do we know she was never involved with Snape?

Lily was quite young when she had Harry: if she'd still be alive, she would be the same age as Snape (and he is about 36 years old). With Harry being about 15, it would make Lily approximately 21 years old when she had Harry. I think we can assume Lily and James to have been together for a while before Harry was born. So, it's not very likely that Lily and Snape got together in the period between their last years at Hogwarts and the birth of Harry. Liked the idea, though.

I really think it's doubtful that Snape loved Lily, i mean he was one of those "dark wizards" where they hated muggle born witches or wizards, that would be liek Hermione and Draco (i shudder at the thought) and also i think Snape hated James just the way Draco hates Harry, they're just too good at almost everything. James just happened to make it worse ( i hate saying this, b/c i was quite dissapointed to find this out in book 5) b/c he was a "cocky" showoff who just liked to pick on a quiet "nerdy" type. Though Snape was more of a "quiet malevolant" nerd rather than Hermione brain nerd.

I think all signs are pointing to yes on this one right now. JKR's evasive answer on the topic definitely leaves the door open, and she's also said it would be terrible to be loved by Snape and we would find out why she feels that way in Book 7. Makes it sound like Snape did love someone at some point and no good came of it.

JKR also said that we'd find out some key facts about Lily in Books 5 and 7. The OotP key fact appears to be that she hated James for a long while. We've all sort of assumed that the Book 7 key fact is going to be something like "she's the heir of Gryffindor", but it could be Snape's love for her as the reason he quit the Death Eaters and (we guess) passed on the information about Voldemort seeking to kill them. If so, you can't help feeling a bit sorry for the poor b@stard - he switches sides at great risk to himself, but it still isn't enough to save the woman he loves.

Well as to whether Snape liked Lily Rowling never said yes but she didn't say know. I just find interesting her reaction to this question compared to her reaction to another where she was asked if Snape was ever in love or if someone loved him and she replied quite vehemently in not so many words, no. Whereas in this interview she didn't say yes or no.



One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.

(JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.



Now look at this one

Originally Posted by BBC interview 19th June 2003

JEREMY PAXMAN: Are we going to discover anything more about Snape ?

JK ROWLING: Yes.

JEREMY PAXMAN: And Harry's mother? Did he have a crush on Harry's mother or unrequited love or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: Hence his animosity to Harry?

JEREMY PAXMAN: Yes.

JK ROWLING: You speculate?

JEREMY PAXMAN: I speculate, yes, I'm just asking whether you can tell us.

JK ROWLING: No I can't tell you. But you do find out a lot more about Snape and quite a lot more about him actually.

I never bought into the Snape/Lily idea--seemed unlikely to me that anyone who would marry Mr. Popular Potter would be eccentric enough to capture Snape's romantic notions :) But then I started thinking about the Mudblood comment. James is threatening to jinx Lily for her interfearance; if Snape cared for her he would definately not want her zapped into the middle of next week. He can't stand up and defend her, so he protects her the only way he can by removing her from the situation. He calls her a bad name, she gets huffy and backs out of the line of fire. Just what someone in love would have wanted. This idea may be giving too much credit to an angry teenager, but after all this is the angry teenager who grew up to be head of Slytherin.
Sorry if this is an old idea, I'm still new to these boards! Feel free to pawn me off to the twins for product testing if my theory has already been beat to death!

I know this thread is a few weeks old, but I've been thinking about this theory lately and I kinda like it. Maybe it's just the romantic in me that likes it, but I just think there might be more to Snape's hatred of James and Harry than we know. It could just be because James picked on him as a kid, but that just doesn't seem like everything to me. And the fact that he picked on him as a kid could be the only reason Dumbledore knows of, but that doesn't mean Snape isn't hiding something else, too.

This idea of Snape loving or maybe just liking Lily is good. It makes sense to me. Snape hates Harry, because it reminds him that James got Lily and not him. As for the Mudblood comment, I think that just came out, because he was embarrassed.

I think Snape probably grew up around a lot of Dark Arts and that's why he knows it so much. That's a presumption, though. So, he grew up around the term Mudblood, so it came out naturally. But, I don't think he meant it, because I see nothing in Snape now to show that he doesn't like muggleborns. If he hated muggleborns back then, what happened to make him change his prejudices, now? I think it easier to say, though, that he never really hated muggleborns to begin with. He just heard the term too often at home.

Anyway, I think it a good possibility that he loved Lily. Lily stood up for him and although he didn't want to admit it, he liked that. I don't know. Perhaps I'm just trying to discover any soft spot within Snape.

I know this thread is a few weeks old, but I've been thinking about this theory lately and I kinda like it. Maybe it's just the romantic in me that likes it, but I just think there might be more to Snape's hatred of James and Harry than we know. It could just be because James picked on him as a kid, but that just doesn't seem like everything to me. And the fact that he picked on him as a kid could be the only reason Dumbledore knows of, but that doesn't mean Snape isn't hiding something else, too.

This idea of Snape loving or maybe just liking Lily is good. It makes sense to me. Snape hates Harry, because it reminds him that James got Lily and not him. As for the Mudblood comment, I think that just came out, because he was embarrassed.

I think Snape probably grew up around a lot of Dark Arts and that's why he knows it so much. That's a presumption, though. So, he grew up around the term Mudblood, so it came out naturally. But, I don't think he meant it, because I see nothing in Snape now to show that he doesn't like muggleborns. If he hated muggleborns back then, what happened to make him change his prejudices, now? I think it easier to say, though, that he never really hated muggleborns to begin with. He just heard the term too often at home.

Anyway, I think it a good possibility that he loved Lily. Lily stood up for him and although he didn't want to admit it, he liked that. I don't know. Perhaps I'm just trying to discover any soft spot within Snape.

I think when he called her a mud-blood he was just an immature teen', so when he got older he became more pronounced and began to behave more mature, like James did. Snape could have dated Lilly before or after that memory in thier fifth year and James stole Lilly away from him. That could be why he hates James so much.

I think that he did love Lily once but that she wasn't his true love.... :sad:

My own personal theory on this is that james tried and tried to get with lily but Lily chose Snape over James and James was the jealous one...But Snape did sumthin really bad to Lily and Lily went to james after that and that's why Sirius and james hate Snape so much too...I'm not quite sure wot the really bad thing is yet but u never know... :huh:

I finally finished reading this thread! *maniacal laughter*

Alrighty then, I stand by my point said 1,000 years ago: I do not believe that Snape loved Lily, or indeed has ever really loved a woman at all. (Heh, when the next book comes out and you find Snape had a wife and some kids somewhere, you won't find this post anywhere.. :whistle: ).

Snape called Lily a mudblood, because he believed (at least at the time) that Lily was lower than him. Being how Snape was at the time, I do think that he must've thought that he was better than Lily (or at least was peer-pressured into thinking so), and was wildly embarrassed and offended by the fact that a not only a girl, but a MUDBLOOD, just saved his grey-undied butt.

And I do, for one, believed that Snape had several friends (all the Death Eaters mentioned, like Lucius Malfoy, were older than Snape, which could explain why they didn't come to his rescue), even if he was just the tag-along who knew all the dark spells.

Snape has never badmouthed Lily probably because he respects her, respects her for dying for her son, and for defending him while he was bullied (even if she wasn't wholeheartedly into defending him in the first place..). Also, the only truly offensive insult he could make to Harry about her would be calling her a mudblood. But, after switching to the good side at his own risk, making a childish insult to anger Harry just seems like a complete waste of him becoming traitor to Voldemort in the first place.

If he truly loved her, then he'd be making all these terrible comments to Harry about her marrying the egotistical fool and being some trophy wife (showing that his heart hadn't really ever been mended).

Oh, and someone made a really good point, that the reason that Snape's Worst Memory was called such because something in that day changed his life. Perhaps it was that day that made him want to become a Death Eater?

Perhaps I'm just trying to discover any soft spot within Snape.

Snape is my Pillsbury Doughboy.

Everyone is hoping fora juicy twist where Snape loved Lily but I HIGHLY doubt that the loved or even liked eachother. Lily makes a point of calling Snape snivellus and I think that it kind of implies that Lily disliked Snape just as much as she disliked James's antics. From the description we got of Snape as a teenager I can assure you right not that as a 16 year old myself NO girl in their right mind would EVER date Snape from what we know he looked like.
-he was a scrawny little thing
-had a greasy hooked nose
-really bad hair
-dirty underpants
-a potty mouth
-obsessed with the dark arts
-constantly sneaking around rying to get people in trouble
-no one liked him and with good reason
I'm sorry if I sound shallow and all but that whole thing about how looks aren't everything...well they really kind of do apply here. I mean no one liked him than and if I was a teen at Hogwarts back than I sure as Hell wouldn't date him. Whatever good that Snape has in him he didn't show it than. He may have cleaned up a bit but boy....that kid had issues.

If he truly loved her, then he'd be making all these terrible comments to Harry about her marrying the egotistical fool and being some trophy wife (showing that his heart hadn't really ever been mended).
I don't think that someone like Snape, who clearly works very hard at keeping his secrets hidden, would do that. He would show his hatred of James, Sirius and the rest, because everyone knew that he hated them, but if he was hiding feelings for Lily Evans there would be no way he would say anything about them if he could avoid it. Especially as, if this scenario is correct, he would have actually failed to save her, which would leave a terrible hurt he couldn't do much about.

Oh, and someone made a really good point, that the reason that Snape's Worst Memory was called such because something in that day changed his life. Perhaps it was that day that made him want to become a Death Eater?
It could have been, or at least could have set him on the way to becoming one. It would have been the day when any thoughts of him maybe being able to get together with Lily went out of the window, and probably the day when she started to get closer to James. That would qualify pretty much as a worst memory, and might throw him further into the Dark Arts.

Everyone is hoping fora juicy twist where Snape loved Lily but I HIGHLY doubt that the loved or even liked eachother.
"Snape loved Lily" does not imply "Lily loved Snape". He seems the type to pine from afar.

This is an old theory I read about some years ago on this forum...
Did Snape love Lilly? Was he jealous of James?
In my opinion the new scene does nothing to support this but I think it is still not impossible...
I like this theory though I don't know why...
I have to say i agree with you some what because Harry is just like James and this would explain why Snape seems to despise harry so much.

But we've seen that Harry ISN'T just like James. He LOOKS just like James. He acts quite differently.

I'd dispute that the scene doesn't show us some of this, particularly because Snape stopped reacting to everything after Lily cut him loose. Remember he was screaming and cursing and threatening when he was being held upside down before she came running to his rescue but after she washed her hands of him he didn't say a word. The book doesn't even record him reacting AT ALL to having the curse reimposed on him.

Discordia--This is the only time we've ever heard him use the term Mudblood and he never ever speaks ill of Lily at any other point in the series (not even when he's raving about the Marauders in the Shrieking Shack in PoA). "Obsessed with the Dark Arts"--This is Sirius' impression and, as we've seen Sirius is anything but objective when it comes to Severus Snape. The other scenes from Snape's memory argue that he learned the curses and jinxes to protect his mother--and probably himself, from his father. Also, remember how bright Sirius is--it looks like Snape knew quite a bit more than he did about DADA when they first arrived at school--isn't it possible that Sirius, a guy used to being at the top of the class, would be just a bit bitter about that?

"No one liked him with good reason"--And what reason is that? He's a loner. So what?

Always sneaking around trying to get people in trouble. Hmm, if by "people" you mean the Marauders, can you really blame him after that display? Besides, the quote from Sirius is about "us" the Marauders, not about the student population in general. We don't have any evidence yet that he did that to anyone else.

Lestrange--point me to a passage where Snape has EVER called Lily a trophy wife or even insinuated it--oh, wait a minute--that's right it DOESN'T exist.:grumble: He has always been very guarded in his comments about Lily and only ever spoke ill of her once thus far in the series and, if you notice, the vile comment was directed at James to make him take Severus seriously and possibly sting his pureblood pride, if he has any (which he may, we don't know). He didn't direct it at Lily. Plus he was stunned and probably stung by her response. As I mentioned above, he quit reacting to the situation at all after she cut him loose.

I don't think that someone like Snape, who clearly works very hard at keeping his secrets hidden, would do that. He would show his hatred of James, Sirius and the rest, because everyone knew that he hated them, but if he was hiding feelings for Lily Evans there would be no way he would say anything about them if he could avoid it.


Well, if you're going to put things in that perpective, then I think that it seems very wise of him indeed to hate the Marauders, keeping up the idea that he's on the Dark Side and he's secretly working for Voldemort (I know there's a thread somewhere that practically lists all the people that Snape has to seem "evil" for since he's a spy), but anyone evil who knew him personally (Malfoy?) would notice the apparent missing comments about Lily Potter, who usually, as most people have said in this thread, clumped together as a unit in most peoples' comments of them.

Now, here comes the question once more: Are these missing comments about Lily from indifference or unrequited love?

He never says anything bad about her, but he never says anything good either. Then of course, the only good comments we've heard he has directed to anyone are comments about Draco Malfoy, a person that he has to seem "evil" for.

Him not really saying anything about Lily would seem an obvious missing detail in pretending to be evil, showing that he may like her, but then of course, the only person to know him personally (and honestly) would not be Lucius Malfoy or any Death Eater, but it would be Dumbledore. Who, of course, he does not have to keep the facade of evil for.

So, either you think Snape wallows endlessly and blubbers to Dumbledore about his unrequited love with Lily Evans, that awful Potter who took her away from him, and that terrible Harry Potter who is a daily reminder of his failure, or, you think he knew her, and his highest (and less obvious to those who need to think of him evil) respect towards her would be to shut up about the whole situation.

I hope I make some sense. :scared:

Oh, and jord, are your comments insinuating to his lost love, or the fact that it could go either way? I got a feel of both from what you wrote.

I remember a while back in the Snape thread, I read something that I found to be absolutely true (in my eyes), towards him ever falling in love. It was something like, if Snape were ever in love with anyone, ever, it would probably be the most beautiful, Veela-like girl with the absolute worst, most idiotic, bimbo personality.

But we've seen that Harry ISN'T just like James. He LOOKS just like James. He acts quite differently.

As far as Snape ever sees, though, Harry acts very like James. Throwing things around in Potions class and bending rules all over the place. Of course we understand why he does that, but Snape doesn't.

I think Snape's lack of comments about Lily is more likely to indicate indifference than love. If he loved her, you'd expect Snape to say something about her, even if it was just that she married beneath her or that James dragged her to her death by asking Sirius to be Secret Keeper.

"Snape loved Lily" does not imply "Lily loved Snape". He seems the type to pine from afar. I understand that but I'm just saying that no girl would have probably ever dated him at school and I don't mean just Lily.

To get the right answer we must ask the right question.

And the question is: Why is Snape almost obsessively protective of Harry despite the appearance that he hates his guts?

I do believe Snape had some sort of crush on Lily. He hates Harry because he is the spawn of his father, whom Snape hated, while at the same time, Harry reminds him of Lily. Protecting Harry would be like preserving his memory of Lily. Also, if you ask me, that would be why Snape would be so embarassed at having Harry see his thoughts.

Why is Snape almost obsessively protective of Harry despite the appearance that he hates his guts?


I think there are two alternative reasons: Snape has enough decency to value human life, and he has a life debt to James (though he might have considered that paid off after PS).

*********************
At a risk of losing my second weapon, I'm going to analyse Snape's line to Harry in the Shrieking Shack:
You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black!

The first thing to notice about this line is that Snape thought Sirius was the traitor. The second thing is that he only refers to James, even though he must be thinking that Lily was also killed by being mistaken in Black. The obvious explanation is that Snape doesn't think Lily was arrogant - so far, so loving, but it seems a bit strange that he doesn't mention her at all if he had feelings for her that were anywhere near as strong as his hatred of James. Why didn't he say, "You'd have died like your father, too arrogant blah blah, and he dragged your mother to her death with his arrogance!" Of course, that could be because he didn't have time, or just that JKR didn't happen to write it that way, but taken with the other evidence I find it a sign of indifference. If Snape really loved Lily, he'd show Harry the price of arrogance by blaming Lily's death on James's arrogance.

Hello,

once again a debate if Snape loved Lily. I say: no, he didn´t. Calling her a filthy little mudblood should be enough evidence in this case. And from my point of view she isn´t the right girl for a guy like Snape. (Maybe I will post a seperate thread about it.) Many people forget the fact that JKR doesn´t support clichees.
Lily wasn´t the only girl or woman.
It would be much more logically if Sirius loved Lily in private, even I doubt that, too. (If we use literature stereotypes it´s more or less 95 % the best friend of the husband who loves his best friend´s wife in secret.)

If Snape ever loved a girl it could probably have been the same one who was loved by Sirius. But we still have no evidence for such a claim.
Severus was the ugly git. His chances to get a girlfriend was probably very low, while Sirius was the handsome guy, who seemed to be completely focused on his friendship with James and maybe never had any intention starting a loveaffair with any girl. But he would have been successfully with girls, no doubt.

Greetings from Austria

No Snape did not love Lily and her actions during Snape's worst memory suggest that there was no love between them. Snape offended Lily and he showed no compassion towards her at all. I think Snape's outburst just surprised Lily somewhat as perhaps he had not responded to any as being a mud blood before. James and Lily where head girl and boy, Lily probably thought that a prefect should be setting an example to the rest and not coming out with things such as filthy little mud blood in front of the other students. So I do not think Snape loved Lily, though I could be wrong.

James and Lily where head girl and boy, Lily probably thought that a prefect should be setting an example to the rest and not coming out with things such as filthy little mud blood in front of the other students.

James and Lily weren't head boy and girl yet. They still had two years before they were. Was Snape a prefect? I can't remember that, though it wouldn't surprise me.

I don't think Snape loved Lily. I don't think he would call anybody he loved a mudblood, especially when she's just helped him. That's about the worst thing he could call her, and I don't think he would do that. Still, the idea does make some sense and it would help explain his bitterness towards Harry.

Why do you guys think that calling someone a mudblood means you can't be in love with them? That seems to be a big reason people give in support of the idea that Snape didn't love Lily, but I disagree wholly, deeply, strenuously on that point.

Have any of you have seen the movie A Bronx Tale directed by Robert DeNiro? I raise it b/c it's relatively modern and has a great scene where the white kid who has grown up in a tough, racist neighborhood lashes out at a black girl he really truly cares about and calls her the N word, even though he's in love with her. It's a good example of a simple truth that you can probably find in countless other films and books: sometimes, we can be the most cruel to people we love. We are most vulnerable and at risk with people we love, and we feel positive as well as negative emotions more stongly with them.

So, to me, the idea that Snape couldn't love Lily and still call her a mudblood in a moment of extreme stress and humiliation is just crazy. People can do all sorts of terrible things when they love someone, especially if they aren't exactly skilled in dealing with their feelings, and it seems likely Snape was not.

As far as it being too cliche - what about the girl-likes-boy-boy -is-clueless vibe JKR is building with Ron and Hermione? Isn't that well-tread territory? What about the wise old white-haired man who serves as mentor - DD remind anyone of Obi Wan Kenobi or Gandalf?

My point is, there is quite possibly no idea in literature or film that isn't, to some degreee, a cliche. What keeps material from sounding old even though it treads familiar ground is the way the author presents it. And JKR certainly has her share of 'cliches' already, she just presents them in a way that's fresh.

So, I disagree that Snape's outburst is some kind of canon evidence that he didn't love Lily or that it would be too cliche for JKR to write it. But I agree there's not any concrete evidence for it at this point . . . just a curious absence of any real evidence regarding their relationship, whatever it might have been.

Either he was basically indifferent to her, like someone else suggested . . . or he was totally madly in love with her. (But the even bigger question is, will this be answered in Book 6 or Book 7? - I think JKR is going to torment us to the end!)

Why is Snape almost obsessively protective of Harry despite the appearance that he hates his guts?
I really don't think that Snape protecting Harry has anything to do with Lily. It deals with 2 things mainly:
1)The fact that James despite the fact that he hated Snape went in anyways when he learned about the trick that Sirius was planning on playing on his arch enemy. He never knew there was a plan being made to destroy Snape but when he found out he did go to save Snape unlike Sirius who could have and probably would have let him die bc Sirius doesn't have the same views on murder as did James. Snape has spent half his life trying to repay the debt he owes James but nothing he's done so far has really paid the price of it.
2)Snape whether people like to admit it or not is loyal to Dumbledore and considering the fact that he's an ex DE with the tatoo to prove it, he's not about to let any of his students especially the people's "chosen one" die unexpecntantly or accidentally under his care. If something were to happen to Harry there would be too much suspiscion on him given his past history.

The idea that Snape could have ever loved Lily and that he feels bitterness towards Harry bc he should have been his son doens't work since Snape still loathes the mere memory of James and hates Harry because of that. Snape dislikes Harry far too much and the last thing he's want is to have anything to do with Harry.

Great thoughts, wavy! :tu: I couldn't have said it better myself. I definately agree with you. :agree:

I think it is possible Snape loved Lily, but as Discordia said, I really doubt Lily ever had any attraction to Snape. As Discordia mentioned he wasn't very good looking and he was heavily into the Dark Arts.

Maybe the reason Snape seems so indifferent is because he's trying to make himself not think about it...he doesn't want those thoughts and feelings to surface so he suppresses them. I mean after all, in order to be good at Occlumency, you have to empty your mind of emotion. Maybe hate and anger are feelings Snape has more experience with, so he feels he has more control over them. But, maybe caring for someone or liking someone is not something he's used to, so he tries his best not to ever feel that. I don't know.

I wonder...perhaps that's how Snape will get caught. Maybe one of the Death Eaters will start talking about Lily and saying alot of bad things about her and Snape won't be able to control his mind and he'll get caught. Hmmm, sounds a little too cheesy actually...maybe not.

Hi my first post here so please be kind. I have been interested with the idea that Snape loved Lilly from afar. But recently I began to wonder if possibly Snape is related to Lilly. This is a bit of self loathing then that he calls her a mudblood and eventually joins the Death Eaters as a way to overcome this. Maybe he sees some of himself in Harry as well, not nescarilly through blood relation, just that Harry is a sort of outcast too. However he isn't disliked by everyone one the way that Snape was and this brings that ole self loathing back. Just an idea.Hello,

once again a debate if Snape loved Lily. I say: no, he didn´t. Calling her a filthy little mudblood should be enough evidence in this case. And from my point of view she isn´t the right girl for a guy like Snape. (Maybe I will post a seperate thread about it.) Many people forget the fact that JKR doesn´t support clichees.
Lily wasn´t the only girl or woman.
It would be much more logically if Sirius loved Lily in private, even I doubt that, too. (If we use literature stereotypes it´s more or less 95 % the best friend of the husband who loves his best friend´s wife in secret.)

If Snape ever loved a girl it could probably have been the same one who was loved by Sirius. But we still have no evidence for such a claim.
Severus was the ugly git. His chances to get a girlfriend was probably very low, while Sirius was the handsome guy, who seemed to be completely focused on his friendship with James and maybe never had any intention starting a loveaffair with any girl. But he would have been successfully with girls, no doubt.

Greetings from Austria

Hmmm. It seems that many of you are convinced that each has the right answer. Im have my views on both sides but none of them can be confirmed from what I have read in the books so far, simply because JKR has not given out any substantial concrete infomation that can prove the theory right or wrong.

He Loves her...He loves her Not :

Ok so from what I've read of any interaction between Snape and Lily, mainly being the flashback scene in OotP, Snape wasn't the nicest of gentlemen to Lily when she attempted to aid him in help.

Firstly I doubt that Snape is unable to love as someone stated above- that is a vague and bland theory, he is human and whatever we might think, everyone has the ability to love something or someone.

Now- my theory on why he is the way he is brings me back to one of his memories that Harry saw. I havn't got my book on me so I cannot write it word for word, but it was snape witnessing a distressing scene between whom I believed to be his parents arguing and his mum suffering the bad consequences. Anyway, I guess that that episode has Scarred Snape for life and shaped the way his acts around girls and everyone in general.

He probably doesn't trust women or feel comfortable with them, so cant' form a decent relationship with them.

His relationship with Lily is, well, hardly there. She tries to be kind and civil, but he pushes her away. Now I don't get some auror telling me that he loves her becuase I have yet to get concrete and substantial information otherwise from JKR. The brief flashback concering his parents is a story untold and a key into Snapes background and character, I doubt that JKR added it in if she wasn't planning to elaborate on it more, but when she does then I reckon thats when we'll find out more about his life and his feeling towards James and Lily....

See, I couldn't even stick to the subject thread cause there is little infomation for it or against.

Why is Snape almost obsessively protective of Harry despite the appearance that he hates his guts?

Because of this ruddy life debt.

Because he hates him, but doesn't want him dead.

Because Dumbledore wants Harry to be alive.

Because Harry is the only hope against Voldie.

Because if Harry dies, Snape will have nobody to hate, and he loves hating people.


EDIT: I don't know if Snapey loved Lily, but i'm sure she loved him secretly. :rotfl:

Although I dislike Snape, I think we need to give him more credit than Dumbeldore did in saving Harry. It seems clear enough from PoA that Snape does not really recognize any life debt to James Potter. He genuinely believes that James acted only to stop Sirius and possibly himself from being expelled. Saving Harry doesn't make him a wonderful person, but at least his motives were probably purer than wanting to be free of a life debt he loathed.

Snape's characterization of those events to Harry is as suspect as Harry's characterization of Snape's actions leading up to Sirius' death. I think the debt was paid in Book 1. It's over folks. Also, Book 3 motives were easily as wantonly destructive as any DEs--The dementor's kiss is the worst fate we've seen yet (even worse than death) and Snape was hoping that not only would Sirius have it administered, but that Lupin would have it administered as well. This is his most maniacal. Notice however, that even here he never drags Lily into the conversation or besmirches her memory in any way, not even when he's lost all self-control.

However, Snape should get more credit for his other interventions post-SS.

i believe Snape did love Lily because that gives James a reason for being so CRUEL to him. but hey, who wouldn't want to be mean to a twit like him? :evil:

Do you know why Lily even bothered to go and waste her time trying to help Snape? It was because unlike Lupin, a prefect who got a front seat to the whole show and just sat there with his nose buried in a book and letting his friends get away with tormenting Snape, Lily actually decided to act on her role as a prefect and try to stop James and Sirius. She may not have liked Snape but she was doing her job unlike Lupin who was to intimidated and to afriad of losing his best friends in the world if he tried to stand up to them. Lily only went to help Snape bc as a prefect she couldn't allow them to get away with it but she like Snape just as little bc she made a point calling him by his hated nickname "Snivellus" and than surpressed a smile when James and Sirius went back to torturing him. Lily was just doing her job just like Hermione was doing hers. When the twins were getting out of hand she reprimanded them for it and she was also worried about Montague when he got shoved in the closet and they couldn't find him despite that fact that he was a Slytherin. If James was torturing Snape bc he liked Lily he'd have probably used it to humiliate him in publich and would have most likely said something outloud.

I definitely think Snape loved Lily. You could just see it in him in the pensieve. He tried to hide it by "not wanting" her help & sympathy, but I really could sense it in him.

As I said in the "which side is Snape really on" thread, i think snape joined with the good side because Voldemort killed Lily (Snape's love). He wasn't fond of the order, but he allied with them, because he hated Voldemort.

If you've seen me post before, here's the usual...
Happy Posting! :)

I don't really think that Snape loved Lily, although it may very well turn out that he did. I think the reason that he hates Harry so much is because Harry reminds Snape of James. In the pensieve, it seems like Snape may have fancied Lily, and obviously Lily didn't like him back. Possible? Yes. Likely? Not really.

Hey, I haven't seen the Figment in years!:D Aah, memories--I got a stuffed one as a tiny tike maybe 16 years ago when I visited Disney World + Epcot.:D

Back on topic

I got the sense that they were friends but maybe Snape wanted or felt more than that and he not only lost her friendship with that insult but he opened the door to James and new it almost instantly.

I'm sorry but I'm sure that Snape's hate for James goes a whole hell of a lot deeper than some school boy crush on a girl. We saw how he was in the pensieve and we know how he is today and we know that he's bitter about his debt to James. Lily had nothing to do with his contempt for James and it was between the two of them.

I didn't say that was the only reason or the primary reason. I said it was a contributing factor.

jordmundt6, I wasn't aiming my post directly at you. It was just a general statement to no one in particular.

As I said in the "which side is Snape really on" thread, i think snape joined with the good side because Voldemort killed Lily (Snape's love). He wasn't fond of the order, but he allied with them, because he hated Voldemort.

But Dumbly says he switched sides before Voldie's downfall, that means, before Lily's death. :huh: Maybe it was because Lily was in danger after the prophecy about her son?

I've heard this theory too...and while it's not impossible I don't think it's very likely. From what we've seen, does Snape really need another reason to hate James? I think his hatred for him is due to the fact that he came to Hogwarts and everyone loved James. He was popular and as a lot of young atheletes are, he was arrogant and conceited. Add to that the fact that James judged Snape before he ever got to know him...that sounds like reason enough to me. Sirius said that Snape knew more dark magic as a first year than any other student. This may be true but we (and the Marauders) don't know why that is. Maybe he wanted to be a DADA teacher since he was little. Maybe he learned dark magic to protect himself from the kids who picked on him and maybe his parents (who might have been abusive). So, if any of these things were his motivation to learn the dark arts...I'm sure he wouldn't take too kindly to some hot-shot Quidditch player judging him right off the bat.

The same goes for Harry. Harry learns that his father disliked Snape and he immediately assumes that Snape must be evil. The Harry situation is partly Snape's fault though...he wasn't exactly welcoming when Harry was in his class. But I'm sure he reminds Snape of James in both attitude and appearence. For someone with a troubled childhood (as Snape's memory in the Penseive suggests), it doesn't take much more than that to immediately dislike someone.

i've heard this theory a lot but i dont really think that its true... just because its one of the most popular theories and no one has really predicted anything that JKR will write about.... like out of all the people that she was going to kill i hardly ever hear that people say that they knew she was going to kill sirius...

im sure now that everyone is going to say the predicted that :)

....
The same goes for Harry. Harry learns that his father disliked Snape and he immediately assumes that Snape must be evil. The Harry situation is partly Snape's fault though...he wasn't exactly welcoming when Harry was in his class. But I'm sure he reminds Snape of James in both attitude and appearence. For someone with a troubled childhood (as Snape's memory in the Penseive suggests), it doesn't take much more than that to immediately dislike someone.
Maybe this could also be reason to believe that snape had a thing for Lilly. Harry looks like James, but has Lilly's startling green, almond shaped eyes. I think that would make Snape a little jumpy.

Snape doesn't see the eyes. All he sees is James' face and, probably, attitude. Something truly awe-inspiring and strange would have to occur for him to set aside his hate and see those piercing beautiful green eyes staring at him out of James' face. I have no idea what that could possibly be.

That's the irony of high school. The jerks are popular and the nice ones are outcasts, only in this case the outcast was just as much a jerk at the popular kid so that doesn't really make him the nice tortured one but in essence the tortured slime ball. Ces't la vie. Snape wasn't a saint either and he both instigated and retaliated some incidents. Lily was sweet but she was no sugar plum. Just becasue someone is nice doesn't mean they're going to date someone becasue they feel sorry for them.

Also the fault was partial Snape's because he never really made and effort to open himself up to people are make friends and instead all he did was make things worse. Lily tried to help him and he only insulted her. What little friends he probably did have most likely only used him. Snape really didn't have a lot going for him. James may have been a prat but he's the one that got the girl. Some food for thought.

Discordia--"date"? I don't know of any of Snape's fans who would claim that he and Lily dated. I have probably one of the most radical theories on the Lily/Severus relationship (80% of the board read "radical" as "ridiculous") and I have never claimed that they went out. Not ever. I've talked previously on this thread and on other threads about the strong possibility that the mystery guest who told Lily about dementors and their function was actually Severus (we found out that she was too young for it to be James or any of the Maraouders) and this required only that they be friends and that she and her parents open their home to Severus as Lily's friend when he needed a place to stay over the holidays early in his Hogwarts carerr (as you can see, such a theory requires Snape's home situation to boil over which, I think, is a fairly safe bet although not a lock). And again I remind everyone that he was addressing James, not Lily and was trying to antagonize James, not Lily. He was trying to convince James that he was a serious threat in his own right and partially shame James for the favored status he accorded to Lily but notice that he doesn't rant, rave, snarl, or curse when Lily turns on him and she seems seriously affected by his comment.

Had she known him no better than, say, Hermione knows Malfoy, there's no reason for her to react this way or even to come to his rescue. The fact that she did come to the rescue and was visibly stung by Snape's comment argues that they had at least some type of relationship that, at one time, was amicable and went beyond being classmates.

Ex. Draco can howl that Hermione's a Mudblood 'til he's blue in the face and she doesn't care. So there had to be SOMETHING, though admittedly we hagve no idea WHAT between Lily and Severus at some earlier point.

Snape's attitude and behavior concerning Lily as an adult does argue that he was fond of her, respected her, was attached to her somehow. But as we still don't know Severus well, we're not exactly sure how to add all this up. A friendship that, for him, became a crush seems at least a reasonable explanation given the facts we have so far.

Jordmundt6, I think that is a really interesting theory. I always assumed Petunia was referring to James as 'him'...how do we know that Lily is too young for it to be James? Put another way, how do we know how old Lily was when 'he' told her about dementors? Out of all of the theories on Lily and Snape, yours seems the most feasible (to me anyway).:)

Snape doesn't see the eyes. All he sees is James' face and, probably, attitude. Something truly awe-inspiring and strange would have to occur for him to set aside his hate and see those piercing beautiful green eyes staring at him out of James' face. I have no idea what that could possibly be.

He also sees Jame's personality through his ability in ligimency and I bet it is that what scars him. You know Snape might also be capable of seeing Harry's mother die through Harry's eyes. Maybe Snape dislikes Harry for the same reasons a Quirelle did in PS.

Though I doubt Snape ever loved Lily as he called her a mudblood and the eye squint from Lily could have meant that she simply was fed up of giving Snape any more chance to redeem himself. Lily might have been a lot like Dumbledore, forgiving in nature and always wanting to give people chances to make up for there mistakes.

Tane--Interesting then that Lily descened to Severus level for an instant to retaliate. I agree she could have been a lot like Dumbledore, but if that's so, unless there's a betrayal going on (perceived or actual) that we don't know about, she pales in comparison to Hermione.

Luna27--Considering that James and Lily were married for no more than three years when they were killed (they were 21 after all) and Petunia "hadn't seen or spoken to her sister for several years" by the time that fateful Halloween rolled around (based on what we get from the first chapter of PS) AND that Petunia called the dispensor of this information "that awful boy," it argues that Lily was not yet an adult when she heard about dementors, that she and Petunia were both living at home. Now in the second chapter of OotP, I made the same assumption Harry did. But there are some rather gaping holes.

1. Lily and James didn't start going out until their seventh year when both were 18 and adults--she was not on good terms with James or Sirius or Remus before that, so the likelihood of any of them visiting her early in her school career is remote to say the least. She might have been on better terms with Lupin, but Lupin doesn't strike me as someone that even Petunia could call "that awful boy." Plus, I'm 90% certain that the Evans' were not equipped to deal with a werewolf and I don't think Remus or Albus or the Ministry for that matter would have sanctioned housing a young werewolf in a Muggle area where proper precautions could not be taken.

Also, had it been Remus, it's a safe bet that Petunia would have recognized him. Now, if she sees Severus in the next book and doesn't recognize him at all, I'll get blown out of the water on this theory, but until something like that happens, I think it's still alive. Also, Severus, unlike James or Sirius or Remus has reason to know what dementors are and what they can do--at least a colorable justification for that knowledge.

Luna27--Considering that James and Lily were married for no more than three years when they were killed (they were 21 after all) and Petunia "hadn't seen or spoken to her sister for several years" by the time that fateful Halloween rolled around (based on what we get from the first chapter of PS) AND that Petunia called the dispensor of this information "that awful boy," it argues that Lily was not yet an adult when she heard about dementors, that she and Petunia were both living at home. Now in the second chapter of OotP, I made the same assumption Harry did. But there are some rather gaping holes.

1. Lily and James didn't start going out until their seventh year when both were 18 and adults--she was not on good terms with James or Sirius or Remus before that, so the likelihood of any of them visiting her early in her school career is remote to say the least.

Very interesting theory - I hadn't done the math on this one before. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that neither has JKR - given the usual "Rowlingometry", it's quite possible that she overlooked the quote from the first book.

However, I may be doing her an injustice. The way it was phrased is a good pointer to your theory - suggesting James without actually saying it was him, at a point in the book where we don't yet know that Lily wasn't likely to have invited James home until late in their schooldays. It does assume that Petunia was telling the truth about hearing it from "that awful boy", though, and her reaction does suggest that she might have been hastily spinning to cover up something she shouldn't have said.

Cool jord. That is something I hadn't considered. I did wonder if Petunia was referring to James when she said 'that awful boy'...but I just assumed it was him. It's a really interesting theory. One thing though...I was so excited that I ran back to read that chapter in OotP, and when James flips Snape over and reveals his underwear the books shows "Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile..." This is before Snape calls her a mudblood. So if they're friends at that point, why would she be moved to laugh at him? Wouldn't she be disgusted with James for humiliating him? Again, maybe their friendship (if there was one) was starting to diminish by that point anyway and him calling her a mudblood ended it altogether.

1. Lily and James didn't start going out until their seventh year when both were 18 and adults--she was not on good terms with James or Sirius or Remus before that, so the likelihood of any of them visiting her early in her school career is remote to say the least.

We don't know exactly how old James and Lilly were in their seventh year, but we can estimate...JKR said Snape was about 35 years old, so if we subtract Harry's age minus a year (since he was a year old when mom and dad were ruthlessly killed), assuming Lily, James, and Snape are the same age (if they were alive), so 35-14=21. But was Snape 35 in the first book? Supposing that he was he would be about 40. 40-14=26.
Snape being 40 in OOTP is about the best I can come up with, that would make him, James, and Lily 26 when they died.
We are told that they started dating in their seventh year, if they started dating at 18 and got married at 24 that is six years of dating. Maybe they took some time off, Lily started dating Snape, who was a DE at the time. She finds out he was a DE convinces him to change, he says no, she says "Sorry dude, but I can't date a DE." and goes back to James. Snape changes, but to late, Lily is married and pregnant.
IMHO, Snape kept calling Lily a you know what to remind himself what she was, but secretly he liked her, and that is one of the reasons he hated James, and now Harry.
But you know JK, totally unpredictable. This is huge stretch of a theory. I think Snape liked Lily. :huh:

I sincerely hope that Snape didn't love Lily. It's quite cliché if he did. I think that he might have felt sympathetic towards her, he may have just liked her, since he never mentions her to Harry. Maybe he felt bad when she stood up for her and now he's protecting her good name.

Snape does not for some reason insult Lily, why? Why insult her during school, in front of James, knowing how James feels about her? Why doesn't Snape insult her now? Especially in front of Harry, he enjoys making Harry mad by dissing his dad, but not his mom...Somthing had to have been between Snape and Lily to make Snape hate James so much.
Lily reminds me of Hermione. Hermione is all for in-house friendship, Lily might have been too. That's why she stuck up for him.

Wendelin...I don't think anyone here has really suggested that Snape harbors dislike for Lily. I and others have actually said they were probably friends and he may have respected her for being a decent person and excellent witch. He was a dumb kid like James was at 15...most people say nasty things at that age. If he saw that Lily was nice and stuck up for everyone, I'm sure that as he grew older he would regret ever calling her a Mudblood. Remember, Snape still feels that James tried to kill him with the Lupin trick and James, unlike Lily, apparently had a gripe with Snape well into 7th year from what we've learned so far in the books.

Personally, I think that would be a big enough shock to Harry...that his mother and Snape were friends. There doesn't have to be a love affair or unrequited love for this to make Harry reassess what he knows of Snape. Also...it just doesn't do anything for the story if it's true. There are two books...JKR has several storylines to tie up in a 2 year time span. What does having a Snape/Lily love affair do for the story? If anything, I think it might make Harry despise Snape even more. I just think it would muddy the waters way too much for little reason when she should be resolving things over the next two books. Now, might JKR do it anyway? Sure...but thus far JKR seems like a very clever writer who is aware that there is an entire spectrum of emotions between hatred and love.

Luna--about that first twitch--This shows evidence that James' efforts are working, she does find him funny in spite of herself. However, when there's a different, greater interest at stake, she fights against that urge to smile and loosen up. She quit fighting as soon as Snape had his outburst.

The whole 'Snape loved Lily' thing is just so cliched.A lot of people have said that for Snape to turn his back on Voldemort and try to save the Potters,there must've been something at work other than the life-debt Snape owed James.If he did it because he had a soft corner for Lily,it undermines the whole importance of a life-debt:not only Snape's,but Pettigrew's (owed to Harry,and could play a major role in the story to come).
The Pensieve scene can't possibly be taken as evidence of Lily and Snape's mutual affection (and I will say this till I am blue in the face).If anything,it showed that Lily,even if she did think he was a git,was attracted (and not allowing that to show) to James Potter despite the stupid things he did.She stood up for Snape just as she would have for any other victim of James's bullying,and he publicly insulted her with one of the nastiest swearwords known to wizardkind.Not exactly something a boy (even Snape) would do to a girl he felt something for.It's true he doesn't appear to have a grouse against Lily-it's James he's always badmouthing to Harry,but I think that's mainly because of the fact that he seems to have some sense of honour.The same thing in him that made him try so hard to repay his life-debt to James would probably also stop him from "speaking ill of a lady",especially a dead one,even if she was the wife of his worst enemy.And maybe he flung the m-word at Lily in a moment of absolute rage,but it couldn't have been because he was peeved about her going out with Potter either-at that point,no one knew she even liked him at all.It's possible he had some respect for her abilities,and for her personality,but that doesn't have to mean he had feelings of a non-platonic nature for her.Or she for him.

I don't think that Snape loved Lily. It's just that simple. Nothing to support or anything. It just doesn't seem like he would.

I don't think he loved her, I think Snape could have seen Lily as a friend though who for some reason had let him down. Lily seemed either annoyed at the fact that she might have given Snape chances to reprieve himself and not taken her up on them, just like Dumbledore does now or that they where having a disagreement over James Potter. I don't think Snape loved Lily but something upset both Lily and Snape that day and I can only think of one person James.

I think Snape did :love: Lily or he just thought of her as a mutal friend

I think he was infatuated or soemthing because she defended him..buthe was immature and he didn't knwo how to act, also, that ugly habit of calling evryone a mud(beep)...that Malfoy, eh, I mean, Snape... He prob liked her a lot and didn't even want to recognize it to himself because it was against his "better judgement"

I don't think snape felt anything for lily. Seriously, would JK write something like that? No I don't think so. People always have these ideas of "oh what if snape liked lily" or "Voldermort is related to Harry" or "maybe Sirius and Lupin got it on in their spare time" . JK is smarter than that. She created the whole thing, she wouldn't write ridiculous stuff like that. Save it for fanfiction.

Thanks, miss hyde, I totally agree with that!

I don't think snape felt anything for lily. Seriously, would JK write something like that? No I don't think so. People always have these ideas of "oh what if snape liked lily" or "Voldermort is related to Harry" or "maybe Sirius and Lupin got it on in their spare time" . JK is smarter than that. She created the whole thing, she wouldn't write ridiculous stuff like that. Save it for fanfiction.
Well the longer it takes for the next book to come out the crazier our ideas will be.

Yeah. The next theory will be Harry has a wee crush on Wormtail and that's why he didn't want Sirius and Lupin to kill him in PoA. :rotfl:

lilly didn't appear to 'like' snape, but snpae wasn't 'mean' to lilly. then again, she didn't like james either and they ended up having the best thing thats happened to the world didn't they? maybe thats the real reason why snape hates harry:
lilly kept on turning him down...
sorry if someone's already said that:
i can't be bothered to read every single post lol!

It was funny, my friend and I were having a dicussion about that. We do believe that Snape had a crush on Lily and was in fact jealous of James for being with her. There is also the fact that she is from a Muggle family, which has been brought up several times. Maybe Snape ignored that fact and did love her. But who really knows besides Rowling...and maybe the cast of the movie.
~Sirius Potter

I guess the only reason why Snape called Lily a filthy little mudblood was to offend James feelings. This was the point where Snape could hurt James deeply. Honestly, I assume Liy was not an object of interest for Snape. He just wanted to provoke James and therefore he put all one´s eggs in one basket.
We don´t know what happend afterwards, but the insulting of Lily was the end of a teenage boys animosity and the beginning of a "war".

i don't think snape loved lily
for one snape was a DE so most like he had the same veiws as most DE
lily was muggle born the two just don't mix
and like sirius said james hated the dark arts and snape was VARY in to them

i think that he wasn't interested in lily. somehow i feel it wouldn't fit that good in the story, it sounds more as a soap opera plot than anything else.

"maybe Sirius and Lupin got it on in their spare time"
I find that much more likely than Snape being in love with Lily.

Save it for fanfiction.
Not that there's anything wrong with that! ;-)

I agree it is a paradox how Snape can call Lilly a mudblood and be a DE as well as secretly being in love with her but I think it is possible to hold two sets of belief (after all, it adds to the anguish!).
I mean my own theory is that Snape did love Lilly - he didn't want too, he hated mudbloods but she showed him kindness and the part of him that craved that responded. I think he did love her but didn't want too and fought against it, the 'mudblood' comment being a key part of that. The fact she then went out with his enemey (James) would just reinforced that paradox in him. I don't think accepting he was in love with her means accepting that he wanted to be.
JKRs comments do lead us to think that there is something there. Personally I hypothesis that the original OoTP needed a inside spy and James remembered Snapes crush (of course that needs James to have known it existed which I know there is no canon proof for except possibily the fact that James hated Snape so much i.e. because he liked Lily and James thought Snape didnt deserve her) and asked his wife to visit Snape and persuade him to join their side. After all aren't we always told what a powerful force love is.
I've got some more random speculation following this train of thought but I know random speculation can be frowned upon so I'll stop here ;)

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Don't think he likes Lily but I do think Snape is jealous of James. That is true. Everyone knows. I pity Snape a little for having slimy hair and bad memories. Lily would never like someone like Snape. Or would she? Lily did save Snape from James and Sirius. Wonder how many times she saved his neck... and all parts of his body.
Everyone knows James and Snape loath each other. Do you think they would still hate each other if James was still alive? A question I think everyone can answer.

All in all, I disagree with the thought that Snape likes Lily.

Now I adore SNape and I hate the idea of him doing anything as 'human' as loving someone, and I don't actually believe for a minute that Snape did love Lily after all there was no real evidence in the books ever to suggest something like this (as for Sirius and Lupin.....all I'll say is, there's more evidence on that score than there is for Snape and Lily)
BUT
There is something major that has to be revealed about LIly in the seventh book, and I've got no clue as to what that might me, and it's something that I've been racking my brains about for a few weeks.
Now don't all shoot me at once but, what if Lily was married before? Maybe she only got with James either after she'd split up with her hubbie, or after he'd rescued her from him.
Surely that would give someone reason to really really hate James Potter.
Now (I don't believe this really) but what if that husband was Snape?????

AAARRRRGGHH!! STOP SAYING IT CAN"T HAPPEN B/C ITS TOO CLICHE OR SOAP OPERAISH!! My head is exploding over this! :p (okay, maybe I had a bit too much coffee this morning).

I'm not saying Snape did love Lily, but I get VERY rankled by the suggestion that it can't happen because "it's too cliche" or "too soap opera." JKR loves the plotty romances of the 19th century, which are basically nothing more than soap operas.

Plus, there is already an awful lot of cliche in Harry Potter. The title character is one giant cliche. Ever heard of "character whose family was killed by evildoer and must develop the skills necessary to confront him and avenge his loss?" Look no further than the western and action/adventure sections of your video store to see dozens of movies with this plot. That's part of the standard hero myth present in many Greek myths and countless other novels and stories for HUNDREDS of years.

What about the character of Draco? Don't you think its a little cliche for the populist hero to have a spoiled, rich antagonist who really isn't nearly as competent or good as our hero? What about Ron? Don't tell me he's the first time you guys have ever seen the faithful, plucky comic relief sidekick?

I could go on and on. Point being, saying something won't happen in HP b/c its too cliche is just inaccurate, because plenty cliches have already happened.

There is no idea in fiction or anything else that hasn't been done before. What makes cliches readable and not boring or bad is when the author uses the familiarity of them and puts in a fresh spin. JKR has put an entertaining spin on all her other cliches, what's to say she couldn't do the same thing with a Snape/Lily cliche?

There is an interesting anagram to do with Severus Snape:

Perseus Evans
Perseus was a character in greek mythology that saved a Princess named Andromeda from a sea monster. Perseus then went on to marry Andromeda.

Although this suggests ties to Andromeda Tonks, perhaps, it is more likely to be a sign of a connection between Snape and Lily, since the anagram also contains her maiden name Evans. So perhaps Snape saved Lily from some sort of "monster" because she was kind to him?

Snape And Lily? Give Me A Break! Never, This Is No Greek Mythology! This Is Harry Potter. A Story Of A Wizard Boy Who Lived When An Evil Wizard Tried To Kill Him While Others Die!

Snape and Lily - it all sounds weird. I don't think they like each other, but yeah, he did envy James, didn't he?

Lily helped Snape because she does not like James's behaviour... Not that she loves Snape and then there's Snape's pure blood thingy... What were you guys thinking anyway?

Lily helped Snape because she always saw something good in others... she was compassionate and full of empathy and love for others - or so Lupin tells in the PoA movie.

Now whether Snape loved Lily or not is controversial... However, I can see it as a possibility... Snape loved her, James humiliates him infront of the girl he's got a crush on and knows his staunchest enemy also has a crush on, so he lashes at her to compensate for his humiliation and to hurt James through her.... However... while I admit it's possible, I think it's far from probable. I find it hard to believe that Snape ever cared for anyone more than he cares for himself. He is, after all, a Slytherin.

When lily was at Hogwarts, I think most of the boys had a crush on her , especislly Snape and the "marauders"

I really don't think Snape did, he hated her because she wasn't a pure blood.

yeah... I don't think all the marauders have crush on her... Just James...

NONONO!!!!! I dunno why, but I'm completly against this. It just dosn't feel right. If Snape like Lily, there 2 totally different people, Lupin and Lily is a no as well, but thats a different thread. Anyways I'm sorry, I have no idea why I'm so against this, I just don't think that everyone loved lily! Especially not Snape. :sad:

I agree Padfoot... it just sounds (and feels) soooo wrong doesn't it?
But then... maybe that was exactly was JKR wanted us to think by portraying Snape the way she did...

Yet... no matter how hard I try, I just can't get myself to accept the idea!

To back up a bit on what JKR said in her interview about Snape, along the lines of "who would want Snape in love with them??"

I wonder if she'd even want Lily to have that fate on her? :whistle:

:lol:
Did she actually say that? I didn't see it.. do you have the link?

:lol:
Did she actually say that? I didn't see it.. do you have the link?
I tried to do a search. I know I have the exact quote somewhere but here is a more audio version:

http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/connection/13.%20Snape.mp3

She actually laughs at this. LOL.

Thanks :)