The Twilight series by Stephenie Meyer v.3

ok, and the whole he-can't-read-her-mind-because-she's-very-private thing always bothered me. are you seriously saying that in all his almost 100 years a vamp he never ran across anyone that's introverted? I'm way more shy and introverted than Bella's character and am friends with a lot of fellow introverts. Edward really NEVER crossed paths with someone as introverted as Bella? I don't buy it, sorry. She shouldn't be super special just because she has a private mind, because a lot of people have private minds.

it wasn't her being introverted... she had her "shield" even as a human...

I think she was too attatched to the Cullens. There's NO way they could've went up against the volturi and not lose somebody important. And i have a feeling she would have had a whole different wave of annoyed fans if we'd lost Jake...


I think a character death would have been more acceptable to fans than the no-battle thing. Characters die and people accept that, it is easier to accept a beloved character death than it is to accept a slightly crappy ending to a book series you read to the end.

If the Battle of Hogwarts in DH ended with no good character deaths would it really be as good? It would have been not believable for that to happen. And it would have made the end of DH bad if there was no battle and the Death Eaters just went home and left Harry alone.

Actually she did not have a shield as a human, because she was, you know, human and therefore had absolutely no supernatural powers. she just had a mind that couldnt be read because she was special. and i'm fairly certain i read somewhere that Smeyer herself said that Bella's mind couldn't be read because her mind was so private.

EDIT: Smeyer explains the private mind thing in the FAQ section for New Moon on her website.

http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/nm_faq.html

first question there

but that makes me think, since now Bella has an actual shield, is it possible that Jasper can't affect her anymore?

the dream created a lot of tension. Meyer was brilliant when it came to suspense! And when she did follow through with a *bang* rather than her common *poof* it was great. And i'm sure Caliope will dissagree with part of my statement, but it is hard to keep tension flowing, and harming your characters isn't just hard, but painful! i had to kill one off the other day, and it totally put me in a funk. hahaha so i get where Meyer is coming from in the protecting her characters thing...although it doesn't leave her readers satisfied...obviously seeing as none of you seem to be.
Whatever part of this I'm supposed to disagree with, I'm not seeing it. I'm right there with ya. Killing characters is painful, even when they're the bad ones. I've done it too, and it sucks. (Be warned, folks - some of my Writer Crazy is going to come out with the rest of this post, so try not to judge me.) When you create a character, and nurture and develop that character to the point where your readers will identify with them (or fear them, or at least understand them) they become part of you. It's dangerous to do that, probably, to put a lot of yourself into your stories, but it's also inevitable when you're truly dedicated to your work. So when you see the plotline heading towards the destruction of a beloved character, sometimes it's easier to just derail the plot so that nobody gets hurt, even if that lands you in the middle of nowhere storywise. There's one story that is currently sitting unfinished on my harddrive, the last chapter in a saga I've been playing with off and on since high school (that's eight years ago, fyi), and I cannot bring myself to finish it because I know that when I do, my protagonist is going to die. I just can't do it. So it's going to sit there forever, most likely, until I either get the balls to kill her off and deal with whatever pain that causes, or just trash the story altogether and give up. It's a no-win situation.

Some of the best advice I ever got was "Kill Your Darlings" - courtesy of Stephen King and his book, On Writing. It's good to hear that kind of thing from an established writer, because I know he gets how hard it can be.

/crazy off
And i have a feeling she would have had a whole different wave of annoyed fans if we'd lost Jake...
In a way, we did lose Jake, with the imprinting episode. Everything about him that made me a Team Jacob player disintegrated when he saw that kid.

the dream created a lot of tension. Meyer was brilliant when it came to suspense! And when she did follow through with a *bang* rather than her common *poof* it was great. And i'm sure Caliope will dissagree with part of my statement, but it is hard to keep tension flowing, and harming your characters isn't just hard, but painful! i had to kill one off the other day, and it totally put me in a funk. hahaha so i get where Meyer is coming from in the protecting her characters thing...although it doesn't leave her readers satisfied...obviously seeing as none of you seem to be.If you're going to be a good writer in this genre, especially in a book where there is apparently suspense around every corner, you have to be able to kill of good characters. Do you think it didn't destroy JKR to kill Sirius, Dumbledore, Fred and every single other character that she did? Of course it did. But it needed to be done. Meyer can't use that as an excuse. The action sequences all just got boring very quickly. The scene at the end of Twilight was exciting the first time I read it, but after it became obvious that she didn't have the guts to kill off a good guy, they became boring because you knew what would happen. Bella does something dumb to get into trouble, Edward saves her from the bad guy.

If she had killed Jake, and the response had been bad, so what? Nobody likes seeing their favorite characters killed off, but it happens. Something like that would have been good for the plot, much better than the downright creepy/stalkerish imprinting.

I agree with the above. Killing a beloved character is hard when you've really identified and poured your soul into them or if you made them your best friend or something. And we as readers have to accept that death in a story where there's action and suspense and potential battles, there should be deaths. It makes a story much much better.

All this makes me think....quite honestly, I actually feel almost as sad about Voldemort dying as the other characters, just not as much because it wasn't as drawn out :lol:

I'm not a writer, so do writers feel bad when their evil characters have to die? Obviously Meyer felt she couldn't kill her precious Volturi, who were the bad vampires in BD. I just don't really understand the need to hold on and cling to the evil characters in the story. The moral of the story is usually that good triumphs over evil, with the evil character dying, not both of them going their seprate ways.

i end up having my evil characters as protagonists usually, well, they're all evil :p. I feel pretty bad about killing antagonists too actually

I'm not a writer, so do writers feel bad when their evil characters have to die? Obviously Meyer felt she couldn't kill her precious Volturi, who were the bad vampires in BD. I just don't really understand the need to hold on and cling to the evil characters in the story. The moral of the story is usually that good triumphs over evil, with the evil character dying, not both of them going their seprate ways.
Always! Every character you create is a part of you, whether they're the 'good guy' or not. It's always sad to see them go. And one of the things I've found about myself while doing this is that I can't create a purely evil character. They might be the nemesis of my main heroes, but I still care about them, I understand their motives, and I don't want to see them go.

I don't know if SM feels the same way about the Volturi. She only seems to off the 'bad' characters, such as James and Victoria (and later Irena, but she never stuck in my head as a real character - we barely knew her), but with the Volturi, she seems to want to hang onto them as well. I don't know if it's for that reason, or because logically she couldn't get rid of them without including a battle sequence that would have killed her good characters too.

I don't know if SM feels the same way about the Volturi. She only seems to off the 'bad' characters, such as James and Victoria (and later Irena, but she never stuck in my head as a real character - we barely knew her), but with the Volturi, she seems to want to hang onto them as well. I don't know if it's for that reason, or because logically she couldn't get rid of them without including a battle sequence that would have killed her good characters too.


I suppose that it is logical that having a battle to kill the Volturi would have meant having to kill some god characters too. But...

In all the other books there is a fight against an evil character, at seemingly impossible odds for the Cullens and they are always fine. At the climax of each book, we think there is no possible hope for the Cullens, and somehow that wacky family pulls through. Would it really have been too much of a stretch for a battle to have taken place in BD and have all the Cullens come through it? They did it before, why not in that situation?

^I hadn't thought about that, but I bet it would be. There would have been a high body count somewhere, but with Bella's 'shield' thing, they probably would have pulled through somehow.

EDIT: But with that in mind, I bet she does want to keep the Volturi anyway.

^ the Volturi are a pretty cool bunch, I would want to keep them too.

well, i agree that i would want to keep them around too, but it's still pretty annoying how unresolved it is.

And yeah, I agree about the Cullens :lol:, they always seem to pull out :lol:. But I still see them avoiding battle as pulling out and it doesn't make sense to me

I'd like to think that Stephenie Meyer saw what a good thing she had in the Volturi. Doubtless she worked hard with them and wanted them to remain an institution in their own right. Having the Cullens ascend the throne of vampire royalty would truly have been taking it a little too far! :lol:!

I assume that they exist now as a threat, constant belligerents in a weird Phoney War type situation.

well, I can understand that she liked them, but honestly, i know that killing a character is hard, reading about a character death is hard, but it's not like they're really dead. All those Harry Potter characters that died are still alive in your mind and just reading back is enough to bring them back to life again.

Yeah, what v8 said. I don't know, but death is a fact of life. Nobody can live forever, and we definitely have had vampires who died too. (Tanya's mum and sister, the countless of immortal children and their parents) Sure, you've poured your soul out to them, but a good writer also has to know how to kill off their characters, as well as create them.

If any of these stories we love had no loss, we wouldn't love them so much. It is the loss that makes them seem so real. And really, who would want to read a story with no central conflict? ;)

If any of these stories we love had no loss, we wouldn't love them so much. It is the loss that makes them seem so real. And really, who would want to read a story with no central conflict? ;)
:clap: Yupyup. *CENSORED*

However, I think your last question is intriguing. Those of us who read the books and did not enjoy them, were disappointed and annoyed by them, complain about the story structure and character development - what kept you going to the end? I certainly didn't think I'd want to read a story with no 'central conflict' as you said, but I did. I read four them. Why?

My answer is simple: Jake. I wanted to know what happened to the werewolf kid. That's what kept me reading. His story fascinated and endeared me from the beginning, and even though I'm infuriated about what happened to him in the end, I felt like the getting there was a real journey - which is what a good story should feel like. The ending is never as important as the getting there.

What about the rest of you? Some of us have talked about this already, but I know there are some folks in this thread who have finished the series since this topic last came up. (Voldy, I'm looking in your direction.)

If any of these stories we love had no loss, we wouldn't love them so much. It is the loss that makes them seem so real. And really, who would want to read a story with no central conflict? ;)Exactly- Twilight has no loss. None of the characters that we are supposed to love (or even the ones we hate) die. And there is no central conflict, which makes the thought of these books being any sort of great literature laughable. The only thing resembling a conflict is whether Edward will give in and make Bella a vampire, and that ends in such a boring, predictable way.

I really think that Meyer doesn't have it in her to kill off her characters, or leave one of them with a less-than-perfect ending. That just makes any book she writes boring and predictable.

What about the rest of you? Some of us have talked about this already, but I know there are some folks in this thread who have finished the series since this topic last came up. (Voldy, I'm looking in your direction.)


MMM, good question. I think I have to agree with you about Jake, his story was interesting. I wanted to know if he would ever get over Bella, how being a shapeshifter would affect his life.

I also wanted to know when and how Bella would become a vampire. I knew it would happen at some point, so I just wanted to know how. Plus, I wanted to know what Bella's experience as a vampire would be like.

I think I was satisfied with how Bella turned and what it was like for her afterward. But I wasn't really happy with how Jake imprints on Nessie, it seems like a convient way out of him loving Bella.

What about the rest of you? Some of us have talked about this already, but I know there are some folks in this thread who have finished the series since this topic last came up. (Voldy, I'm looking in your direction.)
I'm a bit ashamed of it, but I used to absolutely love Twilight and I was an Edward fangirl back when not many people knew about it anyways. And honestly, Twilight really wasn't that awful of a book. At least not at first glance. I didn't really start getting really annoyed at the books until the end of New Moon, more specifically, at Bella. Edward just dumps her and she goes into serious depression and she takes him back no questions asked?:no: And after New Moon was Eclipse, and at first glance, it was a pretty good book. There was a central conflict, I liked the preparing for battle part, I liked the way the werewolves and vampires went from enemies to not really friends, but associates.

But Breaking Dawn just completely ruined the series for me. On the whole, the Twilight series aren't that awful, they have both good and bad, and they're good for light reading, but what i like is books for analyzing and thinking about and for reading over and over and over again. And I had never really properly thought about them prior to Breaking Dawn. Breaking Dawn was the book that completely highlighted all the faults i had been skimming over in the previous books. It highlighted how shallow Bella and Edward's relationship really was, it made what Jake did and his behavior in Eclipse seem a bit more idiotic than it did at first, it highlighted how little character development there was, etc. And then it added on a whole pile of new things i was annoyed about. I read the books way more for the action than the romance, whcih is probablywhy I didn't like New Moon much either.

Meyer is decent at building up suspense and keeping a reader hooked, I really do think she has the beginnings of a great author but endings are really important and she completely ruined hers. Twilight gave me hope that her books might get better and better, which is why I looked past the faults in New Moon, Eclipse renewed that hope and Breaking Dawn completely squashed it.

I did want to see Bella become a vampire though, that was a major reason why I kept reading.

Sorry if i've bored everyone :lol:

MMM, good question. I think I have to agree with you about Jake, his story was interesting. I wanted to know if he would ever get over Bella, how being a shapeshifter would affect his life.

I also wanted to know when and how Bella would become a vampire. I knew it would happen at some point, so I just wanted to know how. Plus, I wanted to know what Bella's experience as a vampire would be like.

I think I was satisfied with how Bella turned and what it was like for her afterward. But I wasn't really happy with how Jake imprints on Nessie, it seems like a convient way out of him loving Bella.
If Nessie didn't exist, I would've been satisfied about Bella being a vampire but no....I kind of wish that Breaking Dawn was about Jake trying to fall in love and giving up on Bella...rather than wasting time on Nessie and the Volturi.

DeathyH - I understand that The Host (currently on hold for me at the library) has a more realistic body count, so I'm going to check that out and see how it compares storywise.

Voldy - I've heard so many people who were huge fans of the first three books talk about how 'different' Breaking Dawn was, and how they hated it, and the others were better. I'd already gotten through the first two when it came out, but I'd decided already that I wasn't a fan. I was never interested in how or when Bella would become a vampire - I knew it would happen eventually, and I just getting annoyed with Edward for not turning her sooner just to stop her from whining all the time. All that constant bickering between them - "Make me a vampire!" "No!" - gets old so fast, and we get two solid novels with that getting drawn out over and over, and the 'suspense' just isn't real for me. Who among us can honestly say they didn't think Bella would be a vampire by the end? Nessie was the real surprise in the last story, and not in a good way.

One thing I will say for the series though - they certainly bring out some great discussions.

DeathyH - I understand that The Host (currently on hold for me at the library) has a more realistic body count, so I'm going to check that out and see how it compares storywise.

Voldy - I've heard so many people who were huge fans of the first three books talk about how 'different' Breaking Dawn was, and how they hated it, and the others were better. I'd already gotten through the first two when it came out, but I'd decided already that I wasn't a fan. I was never interested in how or when Bella would become a vampire - I knew it would happen eventually, and I just getting annoyed with Edward for not turning her sooner just to stop her from whining all the time. All that constant bickering between them - "Make me a vampire!" "No!" - gets old so fast, and we get two solid novels with that getting drawn out over and over, and the 'suspense' just isn't real for me. Who among us can honestly say they didn't think Bella would be a vampire by the end? Nessie was the real surprise in the last story, and not in a good way.

One thing I will say for the series though - they certainly bring out some great discussions.

I was only a fan of Twilight, i was only really giving the rest of the books a chance. And I always know what happens in the end, in general, i've predicted the ending of nearly every book i've ever read. And seeing that i finished Twilight twice as fast as any other 500 book i've read, i completely skimmed over everything. Eclipse would've been my favorite out of the series if the bickering wasn't so annoying already. Anyways, looking back at it all, it isn't that Breaking Dawn was so different. It was all the same, except a bit more extreme. The lovey dovey totally happy and perfect was pushed way beyond the limit, the horrendous plot, etc. It's not that it was actually much worse, it was just the eye opener

the reason I read all four books was because I used to be a huge Twilight fan. I thought the books were amazing and Edward was great and Jacob was awesome. but then Breaking Dawn came out. There's this episode of How I Met Your Mother where the characters all reveal the little things about each other that annoy them and as the others think about the voiced annoyances there's this sound effect of glass breaking as the realize the annoying-ness of one of the others' habit(s). That's what it was like when I read Breaking Dawn. I'd thought this was a great series, and then the complete fail that was BD shattered the illusion of goodness, and every minor thing I had a problem with was intensified (glass breaking sound effect included), along with new problems I had with the series.

One thing I will say for the series though - they certainly bring out some great discussions.

Hear, hear. I'm surprised by the continuous activity of the thread. :wow: Although I lost interest in the series at some point, I still frequent the fandom and the discussions.

well, it's fun to speak of Twilight in a highly educated and polite fashion :D:angel:

^I just want to point out that was her, not me, and yes, especially on this forum, it's provoked a huge amount of intelligent discussion. I think we're lucky to have someone like Hermi0nechik who can argue in favor of Twilight with some sense and dignity - and I've told her so several times.

Repeating my earlier in-thread: Bashing and mocking Twilight fans is a no-go. Constructive criticism of the novels, however, is always welcome.

Secondly, we're not discussing thread logistics in a thread. That's what owls are for. You are also welcome to report a post you consider not in accordance with the forum rules, so that staff can deal with it. Thank you.

For me, I was not even a fan of the series. I read it only because my friends literally forced the book down the throat. And of course, I was a little curious about the vampires, having loved vampiric lore and that kind of stuff. I liked it at first-her poetic language drew me in. That's Meyer's strongest point, her unique writing style.

It was the potrayal of the vampires and the constant 'Edward is the most perfect guy in the universe' which made me lose all hope in Twilight.

I explained the basic plots of all the books to my sister the other day in just a few minutes, and for the first three, it made me realize that bare bones the story had so much potential. But due to, in my opinion, sub-standard writing and editors not editing the way they should, the finished product of the books left much for me to desire.

I am yet another fan who was completely turned off by the final book, and when I explained them to my sister it was with that synopsis that she definitively decided not to ever read them. We both agreed that the story at its most basic is something intriguing that could be great, but the execution was lacking.

^ I agree. Just hearing about the basic plot made me want to read the books. The plot idea is wicked, but the writing style is not for me.

I explained the basic plots of all the books to my sister the other day in just a few minutes, and for the first three, it made me realize that bare bones the story had so much potential. But due to, in my opinion, sub-standard writing and editors not editing the way they should, the finished product of the books left much for me to desire.

I am yet another fan who was completely turned off by the final book, and when I explained them to my sister it was with that synopsis that she definitively decided not to ever read them. We both agreed that the story at its most basic is something intriguing that could be great, but the execution was lacking.

I think that pretty much sums up this entire thread with wonderful clarity. :tu:
The thing is this: why did the editors not see the gaping inconsistencies and lack of focus that sort of applied throughout the last three books?

I thought the first was the best, arguably because it was the most generic and the least contrived. It dragged me in because it was an interesting idea; but by Breaking Dawn, I felt lost in a web of an author changing her mind as to the limits to her imagination.

I actually took a pencil to Eclipse and started making corrections - crossing stuff out, respelling words, etc. - because I couldn't stand it anymore. Meyer has plenty of potential, and I still want to read The Host, but her editor needs a boot to the head. The fact that these books were published in their current state is an embarrassment to the world of literature.

Today I was thinking about our good friend Jake and was wondering why a point was made about him being a shapeshifter and not a true werewolf. Why is this distinction made? It was slipped in there as an afterthought it seemed like, if you weren't reading carefully, you would have missed that information.

The only reason I can think of is he is a shapeshifter so he and Bella and Nessie aren't 'mortal enemies' like vampires and werewolves are supposed to be. However, I think this reason is pretty weak. If he remained labeled a werewolf, it would have demonstrated that anyone can be friends.

Am I missing the point here?

Today I was thinking about our good friend Jake and was wondering why a point was made about him being a shapeshifter and not a true werewolf. Why is this distinction made? It was slipped in there as an afterthought it seemed like, if you weren't reading carefully, you would have missed that information.

The only reason I can think of is he is a shapeshifter so he and Bella and Nessie aren't 'mortal enemies' like vampires and werewolves are supposed to be. However, I think this reason is pretty weak. If he remained labeled a werewolf, it would have demonstrated that anyone can be friends.

Am I missing the point here?

If you are, i'm missing the same point. I think the only reason why was because the Volturi wanted a reason to get rid of the Cullens...but that's still a really dull plot twist and completely useless information. The Volturi wouldn't have attacked anyways, or they probably wouldn't have because of how much weaker they were with Bella's shield. Point is, being a shapeshifter waspretty pointless, but that's just me

My theory on that (which I've posted before) is good ole fashioned backpeddling. Werewolves don't behave the way the Quileutes do: they change only after being bitten, they follow lunar cycles, and they have no control over their actions. SMeyer probably had someone point that out to her after the fact, and threw in the 'shapeshifter' thing as a way to fix it.

^ she changed vampires, why not change werewolves?

^ she changed vampires, why not change werewolves?

that's what i thought. She already changed a lot of mythology and i didn't think it was that out of place for the werewolves to be changed

yeah, I thought the whole shapeshifter thing just seemed really convenient. Like the Volturi wanted to attack but Smeyer had to find a plausible excuse for them not to or something, so she was like hey, I'll just rip from HP and animagi and make them shapeshifters instead of actual werewolves!
And one of the things that bothers me about it is that the Quillettes have gone centuries believing they had (potential) werewolves inside the tribe, and at no point in all that time did anyone actually realize they weren't real werewolves. They knew about the other mythological creatures (vampires), so why wouldn't they know that they weren't actual werewolves because real werewolves were, well, different?
And I thought it was really cheap that she made her vampires so unique and occasionally brags about their uniqueness and then made the werewolves actually fit the stereotype after making us think they too were unique to her books.

^Yeah, that bothered me more than anything else. I can take the 'oh, they're actually shapeshifters' thing with a grain of salt. But the fact that the Volturi knew this, but the Quileutes did not, was just plain mean. It goes back to her insistence that vampires are the *best* mythological creatures out there, and if you're human, or a shapeshifter/werewolf, you're just not going to be as clever, or as strong, or as fast, etc.

yeah, I thought the whole shapeshifter thing just seemed really convenient. Like the Volturi wanted to attack but Smeyer had to find a plausible excuse for them not to or something, so she was like hey, I'll just rip from HP and animagi and make them shapeshifters instead of actual werewolves!

If you've ever read the Southern Vampire series by Charlaine Harris, you'll see just how closely Meyer's version of shapeshifters meshes with Harris'. In the SV universe, there are weres and shifters. Some turn into specific animals, and some are able to turn into any animal as long as they get a good look at one first (like in a picture).
A lot of fans wonder if she took the idea from Harris for her later book because the similarities are so close. Though, in the Southern Vamp books shifters and weres do have to change at the full moon. But they are also able to do so at pretty much any time, and they retain much of themselves when they shift.

I saw this interesting article where stephen king weighs in on JKR and Stephenie Meyer.

He basically says that both are very successfull, except that JKR is a fantastic writher and that SM is "terrible."

Here's the link:

http://blogs.usaweekend.com/whos_news/2009/02/exclusive-steph.html

I know a lot of people on this thread and actually in general feel that SM's writing is terrible. I will say that when I first started twilight, I almost put it down because I couldn't stand the writing initially- especially all the grammar issues and descriptions of bella cooking! :LOl

But, somehow, by the time I got to the middle of twilight and then new moon I was completely addicted. I remember being in a total "trance", where I found myself going thru the same emotional roller coaster as bella. It was such a throwback to all the emotions I felt when I went thru the craziness of first love. It was such an obsessive, thrilling read. A lot of my friends, some of who are moms, felt the exact same way. One of them, who said she never even finished reading a book for leisure ever, finished twilight in a few days and found herself bawling as she was reading new moon.

So, despite the grammatical errors, etc in the books and all the criticisms of SM's writing, I've got to give her kudos for writing a story that resonated so well among women of all ages. As much as I loved HP, and recognize that JKR was an amazing, incredibly imaginative writer, I also have to praise SM for creating such an emotionally compelling love story.

I just had a random thought. About Breaking Dawn and the other books on a lesser scale, at the time, it seems like a great book but seems awful afterwards, especially breaking dawn for me. I remember I was laughing and giggling the entire time (well, mostly at the sheer absurdity of it) and at Jacob's section (I think it was supposed to be funny right?). Problem is, some things are only funny once :p

I saw that article with Stpehen King too. I think it's kinda funny that an accomplished and very respected author finally pointed out the JKR is a tremendously better writer than Smeyer, and that Smeyer was a horrible writer. And what he said about her books being very compelling for her audience was also very true; she's managed to get people way interested in her books despite being a bad writer.
I mean, come one, she used the word 'chagrin' more in the Twilight series than I'd ever read before in my entire life!

I saw that article with Stpehen King too. I think it's kinda funny that an accomplished and very respected author finally pointed out the JKR is a tremendously better writer than Smeyer, and that Smeyer was a horrible writer. And what he said about her books being very compelling for her audience was also very true; she's managed to get people way interested in her books despite being a bad writer.
I mean, come one, she used the word 'chagrin' more in the Twilight series than I'd ever read before in my entire life!

well, i haven't even read it at all before Twilight :rotfl:

And while sometimes i do like poetic language, sometimes Meyer really overdoes it...

^ In reply to the shape-shifted question (was it Rebel who posted it?), for me, I thought it was a boring twist. It was pointless to the plot, albiet the fact that the Volturi would not attack them.

BTW, I just read an article pinned up on our school noticeboard about Twilight. Against Twilight, actually. Get this: She actually said that reading Twilight was like reading a badly written blog. By line 3, I was like, OK! You hate Twilight, I know. Got that the first 1, 000, 000 times. Dear Merlin, that person really made US (us as in all of us here in this thread) seem like Twihards-she really hated Twilight. The fans are scary, but the haters are scarier.

I just finished reading Needful Things, haha - Stephen King is one of my personal heroes. I'm sending him a promo copy of my book once it's published. Thanks for posting that!

EDIT: Oh wow - and I just bought that book that they're talking about in the article, literally like two days ago!

I'll try not to get myself too spoiled while reading this thread, because I am not done with the books just yet.

I've read Twilight a few weeks ago, and a couple days ago, I finished New Moon, and I am almost done with Eclipse.

I must say, this series is a lot better than I thought it would be when I first started it. At first I didn't like the fact that it was in first person. I am not too big a fan of those types of books, but this suits it really well.

Having just read the second book, and almost done with the third, my thoughts are on those.

I don't really have any thoughts as to when Edward first left Bella, because now I know the reason, and that reason affects me more than why I thought he left at first.

I am a big fan of Bella/Edward, and not too big on the Jacob/Bella relationship. I believe Charlie said it right near the end of Eclipse (well I remember it cause it was something I read earlier today), Edward is ALOT more mature than Jacob. Jacob is a jealous kid with a crush.

At first, I liked the Jacob/Bella relationship. It got to where it was beyond the steps of a normal friendship, but it was a good friendship. Bella needed him when she thought she couldn't have Edward anymore.

Then Edward came back into the picture, and Jacob's jealousy just got out of hand. When he first kissed Bella, grr... I understood Bella's feelings. The second kiss... I dunno, it didn't suit me well. Like I said, I am more of a Edward/Bella shipper.

I really love Edward and Bella's relationship. I love the point they are at (at the point I am reading) and while I am a bit worried about how Charlie, Renee and Bella's friends will take it, I still want to see them go as far as possible. Which basically means, her transforming into a vampire. The thought of Vampire-Bella really suits me.

When I first read Twilight, I thought the next books would be more of a Werewolf/Vampire war, but it really surprises me how the Cullens and the Q tribe can get along.

IMO is this better than Harry Potter? No. It is a different genre, but I still love the Harry Potter Series much more.

Edit: Just finished Eclipse. The Epilogue confused me. I really hoped it would be Bella confronting her father about her decision. But it was in Jacob Black's PoV? Why the sudden change for a chapter.

Maybe my answers will come in Breaking Dawn. I will be reading that soon.

Another question. I keep hearing about this "Midnight Sun" story... what is the deal with this? Is it the next book in the series? Was it going to be the next book, but Stephanie Meyer decided she couldn't do it? Or what?

Edit again:

I found the Midnight Sun info for myself.

IMDB.

# Stephenie Meyer wrote a parallel novel (unfinished) to 'Twilight' called 'Midnight Sun.' It tells the story of the first book from Edward's point of view. In it, he comments that the arrival of Bella to the school has all of the boys "acting like they're in first grade and she's the shiny new toy". This thought is spoken aloud by Jessica during Bella's first lunch in the cafeteria.

This'll be very interesting....since before Eclipse, the thoughts were good, it'll be cool to see someone in the process :lol:

This'll be very interesting....since before Eclipse, the thoughts were good, it'll be cool to see someone in the process :lol:

If you're talking about me, yes I've started Breaking Dawn. I'm already up to Jacob's PoV. *sigh* I don't like Jacob and the fact that Stephanie Meyer decided to make him have a PoV is just unbelievable. I don't really want to skip this part, cause it has to be interesting.

Also the part with Bella. I will put this in spoilers so there are none for people who haven't read the book.

So I understand that Bella is pregnant. But the whole sped-up process thingy is a bit weird. I know it has something to do with vampires, and I am beginning to think she is the first person to have this happen to her. I can't wait to get back to her PoV.

Also...

I think I want to kill that one woman... er, forgot her name. Kalua or something? The Brazillian woman who totally messed up the honeymoon. Seriously, I wish Edward would have shut her up!

Yeah, i was talking about you :). Because the pattern seems to be that everyone likes the books at first and reads Breaking Dawn and it's like WHAM! instant hatred:lol:

Yeah, i was talking about you :). Because the pattern seems to be that everyone likes the books at first and reads Breaking Dawn and it's like WHAM! instant hatred:lol:

I'm not to the point of hating it. Just Jacob. Only Jacob. He gets on my nerves.

Actually, I don't mind Jake, Admittedly, his attitude was really annoying in Eclipse, but at the same time, i can understand him. However, I felt he was the only redeeming thing in Breaking Dawn.

Actually, I don't mind Jake, Admittedly, his attitude was really annoying in Eclipse, but at the same time, i can understand him. However, I felt he was the only redeeming thing in Breaking Dawn.

I wasn't too sure what to think about that at first...

Then I got to where I am reading. Okay, maybe Jake has a few redeeming features. Maybe if he totally gets over Bella, I will like him. But he's still a jealous mutt IMO. :p

I don't want to spoil anything so :nc: about Jake

The section that was from Jacob's POV was the only part of Breaking Dawn that I liked.

I wasn't too sure what to think about that at first...

Then I got to where I am reading. Okay, maybe Jake has a few redeeming features. Maybe if he totally gets over Bella, I will like him. But he's still a jealous mutt IMO. :p

It's so funny- there's such polarizing opinions about Jacob. People either love him or can't stand him:lol: I guess that's why we have team jacob and team edward camps:lol:

I remember really liking eclipse and looking forward to breaking dawn. Luckily,I already heard all the negative rumors about the last book so I was prepared for it to be weird and odd.

Just like fury, the fast foward pregnancy was really a strange twist. I initially liked jacob's pov, but I started getting tired of it after awhile. It was a refreshing change, but his thoughts were so bitter and sarcastic all the time that it got tiring being in his mind for so long. I was glad to be back to bella by the time book 2 was 3/4 over.

Breaking Dawn is gloriously entertaining in a "I can't believe what I'm reading!" kind of way. It's so out there, it almost needs its own category. And honestly, I think there are some great aspects to it that she should have introduced sooner.
Such as using folks other than Bella as POV characters; bringing in vamps with different powers from all over the globe; revealing the difference between werewolves and shapeshifters and telling us which category the Quileutes fall into; exploring the darker, scarier, but still necessarily business dealings of the Cullen Clan - i.e. the J. Jenks guy and his mortal terror of Jasper.
It's just so much farther out there than the previous three stories, it throws people through a loop the first time they read it.

By the way, I just picked up The Host - not too shabby. I might actually really enjoy this one, rather than get sucked in by the slippery prose and stay for the lolz. Highly praised by Orson Scott Card - one of my favorite science fiction writers - and already I can tell the characters are more morally ambiguous, which is encouraging.

EDIT: For the record, Caliope has been on Team Jacob since day one. Not the love triangle bit - egads, no! - just the fact that he's my favorite character.

I finally read twilight a few days ago. I was expecting it to be amazing, from the way it's become so popular.

When I read the preface I was in shock. After the first few lines I was hoping it was just an authors note and not really part of the book. Yeh, it was that bad. And it didn't get better. I don't want to be harsh but the writing was terrible. I've read better (much better) fanfics than that!

But for some reason, I kept on reading and finished it in two days straight. I guess that's because it's interesting, even if the writing is so bad and the plot of plain and simple...

But I have to admit I'm really enjoying Midnight sun! And, ironically, that hasn't even been edited lol.

I loved the series. But now I am sad because I have finished them. I am waiting for the new ones!

I finally read twilight a few days ago. I was expecting it to be amazing, from the way it's become so popular.

When I read the preface I was in shock. After the first few lines I was hoping it was just an authors note and not really part of the book. Yeh, it was that bad. And it didn't get better. I don't want to be harsh but the writing was terrible. I've read better (much better) fanfics than that!

But for some reason, I kept on reading and finished it in two days straight. I guess that's because it's interesting, even if the writing is so bad and the plot of plain and simple...

But I have to admit I'm really enjoying Midnight sun! And, ironically, that hasn't even been edited lol.

That's what I mean! I remember when I started reading twilight I thought the writing was horrible, but then I got so swept up in the story I couldn't put it down. I ended up racing thru the entire series like that. It was so incredibly addictive! It has this undefinable allure.

Someone said SM is a great storyteller, but not the best writer. I don't know if that's entirely accurate; but whatever her naysayers are, she did pen an incredibly emotionally compelling story.

I enjoyed midnight sun as well. I loved getting the "answers" so to speak of what edward was going thru during twilight. It was wonderful.

I loved the series. But now I am sad because I have finished them. I am waiting for the new ones!


I know, my friends and I felt so empty after we finished the books:lol:
It's such a shame she stopped writing them. Otherwise, at least we would be getting a complete midnight sun this august.

I would have loved to find out what was going thru edward's mind throughout the entire meadow scene. That would have been such a great read!

I could probably guess all Edward's thoughts: lot's of chagrin, amazement, bitterness, I'm-so-tortured. I read the unedited Midnight Sun, and was surprisingly bored. I read it back when I was still a fan of the series, so while I felt a little bad for SMeyer (although I thought the hissy fit she threw was extremely immature of her), I was still way excited to read the portion she put up on her page. But in reality it read just like Twilight did; same exact style as if it had been from Bella's POV. I'll be optimistic and say her editor may have pointed this out had she finished it, but I think her editor's already proven to be, um, questionable.

I finally read twilight a few days ago. I was expecting it to be amazing, from the way it's become so popular.

When I read the preface I was in shock. After the first few lines I was hoping it was just an authors note and not really part of the book. Yeh, it was that bad. And it didn't get better. I don't want to be harsh but the writing was terrible. I've read better (much better) fanfics than that!
i've read your fanfics and i think they're WAY better than Twilight :lol:. Or well, your latest one anyways. But I personally liked the writing style in the preface since well...I never pay attention to the mechanics in writing anyways.

But for some reason, I kept on reading and finished it in two days straight. I guess that's because it's interesting, even if the writing is so bad and the plot of plain and simple...

But I have to admit I'm really enjoying Midnight sun! And, ironically, that hasn't even been edited lol.
I'm a 14 year old girl and I can honestly say that i can make up more complicated plots than Meyer, whether or not they're more enjoyable or if my writing details and well, presentation is as good.

You bring up a good point....could it be that editing actually ruined the books? We always talk about how they should've edited more...but maybe they should've edited less?



I enjoyed midnight sun as well. I loved getting the "answers" so to speak of what edward was going thru during twilight. It was wonderful.




I know, my friends and I felt so empty after we finished the books:lol:
It's such a shame she stopped writing them. Otherwise, at least we would be getting a complete midnight sun this august.

I would have loved to find out what was going thru edward's mind throughout the entire meadow scene. That would have been such a great read!

I really liked midnight sun, Edward is WAY more interesting than Bella

I could probably guess all Edward's thoughts: lot's of chagrin, amazement, bitterness, I'm-so-tortured. I read the unedited Midnight Sun, and was surprisingly bored. I read it back when I was still a fan of the series, so while I felt a little bad for SMeyer (although I thought the hissy fit she threw was extremely immature of her), I was still way excited to read the portion she put up on her page. But in reality it read just like Twilight did; same exact style as if it had been from Bella's POV. I'll be optimistic and say her editor may have pointed this out had she finished it, but I think her editor's already proven to be, um, questionable.
Nah, I'd still rather read Edward than Bella. Same writing style unfortunately....but whatever, his thoughts are way more interesting than "oh, she's so hot!"

I started reading a little bit on Midnight Sun. I have to say it was pretty good. Edward's POV is much more interesting than Bella's. And even though it is obviously the same exact plot as Twilight, it would be interesting to see.

Plus I thought that Meyer's writing had gotten better. She sure can write tortured Edward!

I really do wonder what happened in Breaking Dawn. Except for Breaking Dawn, I can really see Meyer's writing improve :hmm:

^That's a good point. Because New Moon and Eclipse were progressively better. Maybe it's because she had that last one planned the whole time, and just wrote the middle two afterwards because her publicists told her to. That would kinda make sense, because she would have written New Moon and Eclipse after the other two, even though I'm sure she pulled out Breaking Dawn to do edits or whatever (emphasis on the 'whatever') once its time came.

Yeah, the writing in Breaking Dawn did show major progression - pity the story was so bad. And just think, the writing would be probably be absolutely terrible if she hadn't done New Moon and Eclipse and gotten the practice she needed.

I really do wonder what happened in Breaking Dawn. Except for Breaking Dawn, I can really see Meyer's writing improve :hmm:


I did see an improvement in her writing from twilight to eclipse. Looking back, I thought eclipse was the most balanced. The backstory of the vamps was great. We got romantic tension, more depth to the characters, and still had some action.

BD was just different. I think inserting jacob's pov split the book up. I still enjoyed it overall despite the bizarre plot twists.

I got done with Breaking Dawn, and I actually LOVED IT.

Some people say Renesemee (or Nessie as I prefer) is annoying. The only thing I find annoying about her is her name (that is why I like Nessie). She is pretty adorable and reminds me of Elva from the Eragon series.

While Breaking Dawn isn't my favorite (actually I don't know what my favorite is, they were all pretty good), it is still a really good book.

I assume there are a few here who have not read the book, so I will put the rest in spoilers.

Jacob redeemed himself in my opinion. His relationship with Nessie and the whole imprinting thing is kind of creepy, but I can imagine a relationship between a fully mature Nessie and Jacob. :D

I was right all along. I LOVE Vampire!Bella. I really do. She is so cool, and I am so happy SMeyer went along with it. It also looked like she was having so much fun writing Vampire!Bella, you could tell it in the writing.

It got really suspenseful when it came down to the impending doom with the Volturi coming, but I liked that it came down peacefully. On one side, I would have loved to see a fight, but even with Bella's shield ability, I honestly would have hated to see the fight as well. Too many characters I liked might have died if the battle went on.

While the whole shapeshifting thing surprised me, I actually loved it. So they only decided to be wolves. Cool.

Charlie was so sweet in this book. I loved that he didn't freak out about a lot of stuff. He certainly loves Nessie, and while he is sorta afraid of Jacob now, he still is friendly with him.

Also I loved the ending... and it made me sad, because there was definitely a sense of finality in the series.

Now for some questions. I was thinking about writing a Post-BD fan-fiction and I need some questions answered. I will put them in spoilers as well.

1. Does Charlie know about the vampires? Does he know Bella is a vampire now? Does anyone outside of the Vampires and Q Tribe know about their true existence?

2. How old is Nessie? How much does she age a year? I know she will stop around seven years old or so.

3. 3. Basically the type of fan-fiction I want to write would be for an actual pack of werewolves to come to Forkes, and perhaps wreak havoc. Would this sound like a good storyline?

That sounds like a really good story, except I thought they were extinct, courtesy of Marcus :hmm:

Now for some questions. I was thinking about writing a Post-BD fan-fiction and I need some questions answered. I will put them in spoilers as well.

1. Does Charlie know about the vampires? Does he know Bella is a vampire now? Does anyone outside of the Vampires and Q Tribe know about their true existence?

2. How old is Nessie? How much does she age a year? I know she will stop around seven years old or so.

3. 3. Basically the type of fan-fiction I want to write would be for an actual pack of werewolves to come to Forkes, and perhaps wreak havoc. Would this sound like a good storyline?
Answers in spoilers as well:
1. I reckon Charlie, and anyone who's come into contact with the Cullens for an extended length of time, probably knows deep down that there's something not quite normal about them. As for the fact that they're vampires, well, that would depend on who's watching. I'm sure some people could figure it out. Others are blissfully ignorant.
2. No idea - don't know, don't care. Age is irrelevent to immortals anyway.
3. That would be interesting. I wonder how the werewolves and the Quileutes would introduce themselves to each other? And how they'd be different?

I got done with Breaking Dawn, and I actually LOVED IT.

Wow, fury that was quick!!! You must have finished BD in what, 2 days? This is what I mean. People criticize SM's writing, but you can't deny the fact that the twilight story is just ridiculously addictive. There's not a lot of books out there that are this compelling. I remember when I was reading the books last nov, especially once I got to new moon, I was in a complete daze because I was literally bringing these books wherever I went and reading them during any free minute I had.:lol: That's part of the reason I have refrained from touching them again- because I'm afraid I won't be able to concentrate of anything else:lol:


While Breaking Dawn isn't my favorite (actually I don't know what my favorite is, they were all pretty good), it is still a really good book.

It was bizarre, but I still surprisingly enjoyed it anyway. It's been awhile now since I finished it, but I remember the last part when the shield goes down being one of my favorites.


[QUOTE]Jacob redeemed himself in my opinion. His relationship with Nessie and the whole imprinting thing is kind of creepy, but I can imagine a relationship between a fully mature Nessie and Jacob. :D


Yeah, it was creepy and it threw me for a loop:lol:

I was right all along. I LOVE Vampire!Bella. I really do. She is so cool, and I am so happy SMeyer went along with it. It also looked like she was having so much fun writing Vampire!Bella, you could tell it in the writing.

Yeah, I remember being glad and surprised that SM turned her so quickly. I expected it to come in the end, so I was glad to see it happen sooner and we actually got to see her as full fledged vampire. That was great!
The first hunt was one of my favorite scenes. It just seemed oddly exhilarating- just another example of how SM, whatever the criticisms are about her writing, is able to make the reader feel what bella feels.

It got really suspenseful when it came down to the impending doom with the Volturi coming, but I liked that it came down peacefully. On one side, I would have loved to see a fight, but even with Bella's shield ability, I honestly would have hated to see the fight as well. Too many characters I liked might have died if the battle went on.

Yeah, we've debated this a lot on this thread. I was already spoiled on this part- I had heard before I read the book that "some big fight never happens" so I was prepared. I do agree though, that at some point there needs to be a "final battle." I still think she could have written it in a way like hp, where the key characters survive but maybe some of the new recruits don't make it.

I really think if she included a battle like what happened with eclipse, she wouldn't have faced all the disappointment and outrage a lot of fans had at what was considered to be a very anti-climactic ending. I can understand that- there was chapters of buildup and a lot of readers felt there wasn't a payoff.

Cinematically it would be a huge no-no that's for sure. Reading it, though, I didn't mind so much. I still think that ultimately SM was leaving herself a door to revisit the twilight world with another book regardless of what she says about this being the end. There is no "happily ever after" as long as the volturi remain at large.

Actually the lack of a final battle and the less emphasis on romance in the book were the main 2 complaints I've seen about BD. As for the latter, I could have used more bella/edward moments that's for sure. But I think art imitates life in that once nessie came, the romance was over:lol: Plus, I was a bit miffed that all we got was the fade to black on the honeymoon (sigh). That was another case of amazing buildup from the previous book without a payoff. It is for young adults though, so I can see why SM omitted that love scene. Still, considering how tasteful edward and bella's scenes were in eclipse, I think she could have pulled it off.

While the whole shapeshifting thing surprised me, I actually loved it. So they only decided to be wolves. Cool. I thought it was a weird revelation to tack on at the end, but it was fine overall.


Also I loved the ending... and it made me sad, because there was definitely a sense of finality in the series.

Yeah, it's pretty typical to feel empty when it's over. Everyone I've talked to who finished the series recently all felt like they wanted more. I still think there's more to come. Read midnight sun. It's only a partial draft but I still enjoyed it.

Wow, fury that was quick!!! You must have finished BD in what, 2 days? This is what I mean. People criticize SM's writing, but you can't deny the fact that the twilight story is just ridiculously addictive.

It is addictive. I borrowed my friend's copy of Breaking Dawn, she gave it to me right before lunch. I didnt even bother eating, I was to busy reading. Then I almost ran into a wall walking home from the bus stop. I stayed up till like 5 in the morning trying to finish. I was so sleepy, but everytime I closed the book, Id freak out and open it again.

I devoured Twilight as well. I had to wait a few days for New Moon and Eclipse but read them both in one and a half days. And then there was the rather long wait for Breaking Dawn and the following disappointment. Breaking Dawn was the first book of the series I had no difficulties putting down.

When I read the series, I too could not put them down.

I think the books are like chicken fries: totally addictive and totally bad for you.

They are good for you :p, most nutritious things my brain eats:D

Just not Twilight :p

I devoured Twilight as well. I had to wait a few days for New Moon and Eclipse but read them both in one and a half days. And then there was the rather long wait for Breaking Dawn and the following disappointment. Breaking Dawn was the first book of the series I had no difficulties putting down.

That's probably the neatest way of saying my general feelings and experience! :D

As much as I dislike the Twilight series, I'm gonna have to agree with everyone about their addivtiveness. The only book I disliked from the start was BD (which made me hate the other ones too). as i was reading it i was thinking 'this book is absolutely awful, what the (expletive) was she thinking, i'm never ever reading this again, this book deserves to rot in a garbage dump'...and I still just kept reading it, even though i hated what I was reading. it's interesting.

It is addictive. I borrowed my friend's copy of Breaking Dawn, she gave it to me right before lunch. I didnt even bother eating, I was to busy reading. Then I almost ran into a wall walking home from the bus stop. I stayed up till like 5 in the morning trying to finish. I was so sleepy, but everytime I closed the book, Id freak out and open it again.


I know. I remember when I was reading new moon, I found myself reading it every chance I got... during lunch, when I was pumping gas,:lol::lol: The same happened with eclipse and BD. I'd stay up til 3 in the morning with the twilight books. It was just crazy. I don't recall devouring any other series like this.

As much as I dislike the Twilight series, I'm gonna have to agree with everyone about their addivtiveness. The only book I disliked from the start was BD (which made me hate the other ones too). as i was reading it i was thinking 'this book is absolutely awful, what the (expletive) was she thinking, i'm never ever reading this again, this book deserves to rot in a garbage dump'...and I still just kept reading it, even though i hated what I was reading. it's interesting.

I actually first noticed how addictive her books were with twilight. I remember when I started reading the first book, I thought- why are these books so popular? I remember thinking that it didn't hold a torch to HP. Despite that, though, I ended up finishing twilight in about 2 days. Once I hit new moon and was pining away waiting for edward to return, that's when I had to admit to myself that I was completely hooked.

I'm not sure whether it's me or something, but for HP, I finished the first 3 in one day (note: I was in second grade, or third, I forget) and the longer ones took one day each. Anyways, I guess, yes, twilight took me similar amounts of time, but I dind't really find it hard to put down except near the end where the big battles are

As in, you found the battles sort of too long and boring? Or they just weren't what you wanted to read? :D

i meant that I didn't care much for the romance scenes but the battle scenes were good :)

Hm. I don't have a very good frame of reference for the 'can't put this book down' syndrome, because that's not unique to Twilight for me. I'm frequently devoured by books.

Hmm... well, I am half-and-half when it comes to this.

I definitely couldn't put Eclipse and Breaking Dawn down when I started them. And when I finished New Moon, I had to go RIGHT into Eclipse cause I wanted to know what happened next.

But after I read Twilight, I had to wait a little bit to read the next one. Which was a bad idea... I read the first chapter of New Moon which was at the end of Twilight, and left me with a super-uber cliffhanger that would make my cliffhangers cower and run in fear.

I too found it hard to put down the books. I think it equates to me being able to watch a marathon of shows like America's Next Top Model, or The Hills. I know that the TV isn't that great, but for some reason it is totally addictive. Same goes for Twilight, the writing isn't amazing, but the story is very addictive.

^There's something to be said for that relentless "OH, the drama, the drama!" syndrome. In the last thread, Moriath compared the books to soap operas, and I have to agree. The fact that everything is a life-or-death situation makes them difficult to walk away from.

Yeah, I totally get that soap opera comparison. They're so cheesy and overwrought, but one time when I was sick and out of school for a week like six years ago I got hooked on all the daytime soaps, even though I thought they were terribly scripted and acted.
Because that's what I felt with the Twilight series; everything was so cheesy and overwrought and it was poorly written with Mary Stu and Gary Stu characters but the drama kept me so hooked that I didn't even realize until BD that the entire series was awful.

I too found it hard to put down the books. I think it equates to me being able to watch a marathon of shows like America's Next Top Model, or The Hills. I know that the TV isn't that great, but for some reason it is totally addictive. Same goes for Twilight, the writing isn't amazing, but the story is very addictive.


Yeah, that's a good analogy. There may have been flaws in the writing, but the story was ridiculously addictive!

The thing I found which was made me rather put off by the book was the fact that Bella was so certain that Edward's her guy at the meer age of seventeen. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult anyone here (hey, I'm 16, if I did, I'd be insulting MYSELF). But you can't be sure that whom you love at 17 would be the right guy/girl for you for the rest of your life, can you? Someone once said, "You have to kiss many frogs before you find your prince." I beg to differ. You have to kiss many princes as well. Just because he's a prince, doesn't mean he's THE prince for you.

Point is, love isn't all fine and dandy and cotton-wooly like how SMeyer portrays it in Twilight. Bella and Edward's story a rather fairy-tale, glammed up idea of love. You can be with someone, but can you live with them? Can you guarentee that fifty years later, you'll still be hopelessly in love with that person whom you loved at seventeen? No.

The thing I found which was made me rather put off by the book was the fact that Bella was so certain that Edward's her guy at the meer age of seventeen. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult anyone here (hey, I'm 16, if I did, I'd be insulting MYSELF). But you can't be sure that whom you love at 17 would be the right guy/girl for you for the rest of your life, can you? Someone once said, "You have to kiss many frogs before you find your prince." I beg to differ. You have to kiss many princes as well. Just because he's a prince, doesn't mean he's THE prince for you.

Point is, love isn't all fine and dandy and cotton-wooly like how SMeyer portrays it in Twilight. Bella and Edward's story a rather fairy-tale, glammed up idea of love. You can be with someone, but can you live with them? Can you guarentee that fifty years later, you'll still be hopelessly in love with that person whom you loved at seventeen? No.

Well, now, I'm going to have to disagree. My husband and I started dating at 15 and 16, respectively, and nearly seven years later we're still together. We have two kids. And we're still very much in love.
To say it doesn't happen is a bit extreme, I think, but I do think that to imply that you'll find the person to spend your life with so young (as we see with many of the wolves, imprinting as an excuse aside) is a bit much. I would venture to say it does happen sometimes, but more often than not it doesn't last.
Also, my brother met his wife when she was 17 - and they are still together elven years later. With six kids. :lol: And very much still in love. ;)

I don't think anyone can guarantee that in fifty years they will still be together, regardless of their ages at the onset of a relationship.

The thing I found which was made me rather put off by the book was the fact that Bella was so certain that Edward's her guy at the meer age of seventeen. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult anyone here (hey, I'm 16, if I did, I'd be insulting MYSELF). But you can't be sure that whom you love at 17 would be the right guy/girl for you for the rest of your life, can you? Someone once said, "You have to kiss many frogs before you find your prince." I beg to differ. You have to kiss many princes as well. Just because he's a prince, doesn't mean he's THE prince for you.

Point is, love isn't all fine and dandy and cotton-wooly like how SMeyer portrays it in Twilight. Bella and Edward's story a rather fairy-tale, glammed up idea of love. You can be with someone, but can you live with them? Can you guarentee that fifty years later, you'll still be hopelessly in love with that person whom you loved at seventeen? No.

I know, I actually do agree with you- but it's fiction. It's just a story - a nice modern fairy tale. I understand that love is usually not the way SM portrayed it, but that was fine with me. It's escapist fare.

Well, now, I'm going to have to disagree. My husband and I started dating at 15 and 16, respectively, and nearly seven years later we're still together. We have two kids. And we're still very much in love.
To say it doesn't happen is a bit extreme, I think, but I do think that to imply that you'll find the person to spend your life with so young (as we see with many of the wolves, imprinting as an excuse aside) is a bit much. I would venture to say it does happen sometimes, but more often than not it doesn't last.
Also, my brother met his wife when she was 17 - and they are still together elven years later. With six kids. :lol: And very much still in love. ;)

I don't think anyone can guarantee that in fifty years they will still be together, regardless of their ages at the onset of a relationship.


Wow, that's great mexicant! I definitely don't see that a lot these days.
You are one of the lucky ones :tu:

Well, now, I'm going to have to disagree. My husband and I started dating at 15 and 16, respectively, and nearly seven years later we're still together. We have two kids. And we're still very much in love.
To say it doesn't happen is a bit extreme, I think, but I do think that to imply that you'll find the person to spend your life with so young (as we see with many of the wolves, imprinting as an excuse aside) is a bit much. I would venture to say it does happen sometimes, but more often than not it doesn't last.
Also, my brother met his wife when she was 17 - and they are still together elven years later. With six kids. :lol: And very much still in love. ;)

I don't think anyone can guarantee that in fifty years they will still be together, regardless of their ages at the onset of a relationship.

I definitely understand that you can still have a great relationship even after so many years, but can you honestly say that you and you're husband's relationship has gone so long totally without a hitch? Bella and Edward have had disagreements, but i've seen nothing where either of them start yelling at each other, or at least Bella, since Edward is all about "self control". My parents met when they were like 20 something and their relationship survived even during the 10 years when my dad went to college and my mom was on the other side of the world, but I've seen many many arguments where they start screaming at each other, and rarely some shattering of cups but they're still very much in love.

And anyways, i'm in high school and I know that the outside student population were on the whole aganist Bella and Edward but anyways, I have a friend who's currently dating (it's been several months). I'm not exactly sure how in love she is with him, but I suspect it's pretty deep, at least for now. But anyways, the guy happens to be well known as a "womanizer", so of course, there are going to be rumors, and every once in a while, they'll really get to her. In a way, that's kind of similar to Edward, he's not known for dating and I bet a few of the students might think he's not really serious or might want to draw out, etc. And Bella didn't really doubt his love, not even once, not a tiny bit, well, excluding New Moon. But in Twilight, where it was still mostly high school, I would expect at least some rockiness in the relationship.

I definitely understand that you can still have a great relationship even after so many years, but can you honestly say that you and you're husband's relationship has gone so long totally without a hitch? Bella and Edward have had disagreements, but i've seen nothing where either of them start yelling at each other, or at least Bella, since Edward is all about "self control". My parents met when they were like 20 something and their relationship survived even during the 10 years when my dad went to college and my mom was on the other side of the world, but I've seen many many arguments where they start screaming at each other, and rarely some shattering of cups but they're still very much in love.

And anyways, i'm in high school and I know that the outside student population were on the whole aganist Bella and Edward but anyways, I have a friend who's currently dating (it's been several months). I'm not exactly sure how in love she is with him, but I suspect it's pretty deep, at least for now. But anyways, the guy happens to be well known as a "womanizer", so of course, there are going to be rumors, and every once in a while, they'll really get to her. In a way, that's kind of similar to Edward, he's not known for dating and I bet a few of the students might think he's not really serious or might want to draw out, etc. And Bella didn't really doubt his love, not even once, not a tiny bit, well, excluding New Moon. But in Twilight, where it was still mostly high school, I would expect at least some rockiness in the relationship.

Twilight was basically a fairy tale. Bella and Edward did have their obstacles i.e. the fact he was a vampire, etc. It's fiction though ultimately so you have to suspend disbelief.

i'm not saying that they didn't have obstacles, but more like more normal things that normal couples would have to face.

I definitely understand that you can still have a great relationship even after so many years, but can you honestly say that you and you're husband's relationship has gone so long totally without a hitch? Bella and Edward have had disagreements, but i've seen nothing where either of them start yelling at each other, or at least Bella, since Edward is all about "self control". My parents met when they were like 20 something and their relationship survived even during the 10 years when my dad went to college and my mom was on the other side of the world, but I've seen many many arguments where they start screaming at each other, and rarely some shattering of cups but they're still very much in love.

Of course we've had arguments. :lol: But did we argue much while we were dating, before we got married? No. We had disagreements, sure, but those first few years are all about getting to know each other and reveling in the wonder of new love. I don't see it as remarkable that Edward and Bella don't fight more than they do - and they do fight, over Edward buying Bella things, over her friendship with Jacob, over her safety, over their sexual boundaries...they fight a good amount more than my husband and I did in our first years of being together. It's something they call the "honeymoon stage" and it generally lasts years. ;)

After Bella's transformation, much of their reason for fighting disappears: Jacob is still in their lives but it isn't something they are exactly fighting over. Being married, Edward seems to stop trying to spoil her and she is more willing to accept gifts as his wife anyway. She is as indestructible as he is and all those things together ease a lot of their tension. Not to mention sexual boundaries are no longer an issue.

Keep in mind that from the start of Twilight to the end of Breaking Dawn, only two years have passed. That's not a lot of time at all.

Well, they have so many reasons to fight but it never seems to amount to anything. And I thought from Twilight to Breaking Dawn it was 3 years, or am I missing something?:hmm:

They do fight-but it's all the minor things. It seems that she nit-picks over him when it comes to the tiny, miniscule things he does for her, or because of Jake, but other than that, nada. She doesn't even move a muscle when he does other things that would annoy the (INSERT YOUR OWN WORD HERE) out of any girl. She doesn't fight him when he leaves her, miserable and depressed. No, it goes back to the "lalala" mode they always have. I wished Bella would go all Hermione on Edward, but nothing. Nada. Zilch. Which makes me want to tear my hair and wonder what is coming over feminism today.

Anyway, Nicole, I thought it was cool that your husband and you met at an early age. You guys must be one of those lucky ones who know your soulmates before you were, like, 20 or something.

Well, then again, Hermione and Ron never really got that "honeymoon stage", since they were friends with many years. :p but still, I expected something a bit more

Bella moves to Forks during her junior year of high school, he leaves at the start of senior year, they marry soon after graduation, and the fight at the end of BD takes place as the first snow falls - bringing us to about the two-year mark. ;)

They do fight-but it's all the minor things. It seems that she nit-picks over him when it comes to the tiny, miniscule things he does for her, or because of Jake, but other than that, nada. She doesn't even move a muscle when he does other things that would annoy the (INSERT YOUR OWN WORD HERE) out of any girl. She doesn't fight him when he leaves her, miserable and depressed. No, it goes back to the "lalala" mode they always have. I wished Bella would go all Hermione on Edward, but nothing. Nada. Zilch. Which makes me want to tear my hair and wonder what is coming over feminism today.

Well, as much as I would have liked to see Bella get angry once Edward was back, it just really wasn't in her character to do that. Hermione always stood up for herself, for others if she felt they needed it. Bella was much more of a wallflower.
Still, they had only known each other for two years - and Edward was gone for four (?) of those months - by the time Breaking Dawn draws to a close. They were still infatuated with each other. I think that's why Bella overlooked so many things.

Well, then again, Hermione and Ron never really got that "honeymoon stage", since they were friends with many years. :p but still, I expected something a bit more

We didn't really get to see Ron and Hermione as a fledgling couple because they didn't really and truly get together until the end of DH, then we are skipped forward nineteen years.
But with Edward and Bella, we see their first year or dating, their first months of marriage - they are bound to be making googly eyes at each other the entire time.

oh ok, thanks :), I missed the first snow part.

I guess it's a no win situation for me and Bella :lol:, I'm never going to really like her too much

They were still infatuated with each other. I think that's why Bella overlooked so many things.

But with Edward and Bella, we see their first year or dating, their first months of marriage - they are bound to be making googly eyes at each other the entire time.
First off, you are very lucky to have a relationship that's survived so long, and having met so young, so props to you. :tu:

However, these couple of things I've quoted illustrate why I was very, very uncomfortable with the fairytale relationship in these books. They never get past the googly-eyed infatuation phase. It's very annoying. And it's very foolish to hop on the marriage bandwagon when you're still in the googly-eyed phase - you do overlook a lot of things. Now, there's no danger for Bella and Edward here, naturally - SM is never going to break them up, regardless of what may theoretically happen to them after BD ends. What's unsettling is that this relationship has all the signs of going horribly wrong - physical and emotional abuse, secrecy, abandonment, possessiveness/control, ridiculously over-melodramatic mood swings on both ends, early marriage - and yet, NOTHING HAPPENS. It's just not believable. I know it's a 'fantasy' and all, but still! I feel like I was constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it just never did.

Sure, some people - like you, obviously - do find their soul mates in high school. Sure, they may continue to be together for many years afterwards. The point isn't whether or not they've found the right person yet; the point is, as a teenager, you are not your fully realized self yet. You're not mature, you haven't had a whole lot of life experience, and you don't know how to handle a serious relationship. Even if the person you think you want to spend the rest of your life with at that age turns out to be the right person, there's no good reason to not wait a couple years and make sure you made the right choice. And in that regard, I was on Edward's side the whole way - he kept trying to get Bella to wait, have some life experiences, grow up a little, and only after she was really, really ready do the vampire/marriage thing. SHE is continually immature and superficial the whole time - the only reason she wants to be changed so quickly is that she doesn't want to get 'old' (which I find mildly offensive as a twenty-five-year-old, by the way) and the only reason she doesn't want to get married too early is because she's worried about what other people (btw, what other people? they all vaporize after BD anyway) are going to think. She needs to grow up, but she never does. It's.....very frustrating that she gets her happily ever after anyway.

Well, as much as I would have liked to see Bella get angry once Edward was back, it just really wasn't in her character to do that. Hermione always stood up for herself, for others if she felt they needed it. Bella was much more of a wallflower.
Yeah, I do remember being a bit put off by bella that she forgave edward so easily at the end of new moon. But, I think part of it was she thought he was going to die, and she realized that having him alive was so much more important to her than anything else. In the end, I did admire her for being so in love with him. I can't imagine being that forgiving myself. I definitely would have made him grovel or probably not take him back at all:lol:

Then again, Edward didn't come thru new moon unscathed and without any repercussions. He recognized what he had done to bella, and basically tried his best to make up for what he did. Plus, he realized that because of his mistakes, he was responsible for the special bond bella developed with jacob and the ensuing tension in eclipse.



We didn't really get to see Ron and Hermione as a fledgling couple because they didn't really and truly get together until the end of DH, then we are skipped forward nineteen years.
But with Edward and Bella, we see their first year or dating, their first months of marriage - they are bound to be making googly eyes at each other the entire time.

That's a good point. We never do get to see ron and hermione as " a couple."
They may also have been just as sickeningly sweet as edward and bella:lol:

As for comparisons between Hermione and bella, they are just completely different characters. When I first read twilight, I remember being struck by how low of a self-esteem bella had. It was such a stark contrast to Hermione, who always seemed so confident and self-assured. But I realized that Bella's low self-esteem only came into play relative to Edward. She never had confidence issues when it came to Jacob or Mike. Hermione had her moments of self-doubt too when it came to Ron, just like most girls do when it comes to their object of affection- especially when Ron took up with lavender. Plus, bella wasn't this special, gifted witch like hermione was. She was "ordinary"- the "everygirl" so to speak. Edward was her "dream guy." For Hermione and Ron it was just a different dynamic. It was a friendship that blossomed into romance. Ron wasn't the dreamy, handsome, charismatic character that all the girls were pining after (except lavender I guess) the way edward was.

If I try to characterize them in high school terms, I think of Ron as that funny male best friend you have in high school who you hang out with but never really think about in a romantic way. Edward on the other hand, was the guy you stared at from across the classroom and dreamt about being with but seemed completely unattainable.

Oh, I completely agree with just about all of that Caliope! But the thing is, many people do get married while still in the googly-eyed phase of their relationship. And while for most it doesn't work out, there are those for whom it does.
I've always found their relationship remarkably unbalanced, and this doesn't even change after Bella's change seeing as Edward still treated her like a child some of the time, even though she had her own child by that point.
Bella really did overlook too many things, and allowed them to become water under the bridge when she should have stood up for herself. Part of me wonders if that isn't part of Meyer's message; that women need to be protected, even when they are fully capable of protecting themselves.

Part of me wonders if that isn't part of Meyer's message; that women need to be protected, even when they are fully capable of protecting themselves.

There were a lot of questionable messages in this series and this was one of them. :agree: Personally, I could never forgive Meyer for having Charlie siding with Jacob when he forced himself onto Bella in Eclipse. And then Bella herself was overly forgiving when he did it again. Jacob was completely vindicated by all major characters because he did it out of love. I am still stunned how little everyone in the books seemed to care about this.

I'm not reading any of the above posts because I've only read the first two books so far (over the past four days), but OMG I'm absolutely hooked! I really wasn't expecting to like them, becaus ethe arguments I'd heard against them seemed quite strong while the whole vampire thing held no attraction for me at all, but now, like I say, I'm hooked. I see why some people can't stand the series - Bella's attitude at times can be irritating, but I'm normally willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I know that some people got really angry with Edwards behaviour at the beginning of "New Moon" but I think he completely justified (and paid for) his words/actions. I find Jacob's attitude harder to understand although, of course, it's not really his choice - you've just got to love pre-werewolf Jake. I've heard a couple of peopl saying that "new Moon" and "Eclipse" drag a bit, but I thought "New Moon" was as good as Twilight, if frustrating at times (because of Bella's depression). I can't wait for Eclipse to be availab;e at the library again - I wanna read it! :)

....and another bites the dust.

Spoiler tags for the newbie's benefit:

Moriath: Although I love Jake in general as a character, I don't understand his behavior in Eclipse AT ALL. It never felt natural or believable (that word keeps coming up, doesn't it?) to me. I mean, he never seemed that obnoxious or borderline abusive before. Although, ironically, his forcing himself on Bella brought about the most realistic reaction on her part: She punched him. Then, when Charlie didn't take her side, she got Edward to come pick her and unloaded all her frustration on him. Even though the way it begins is horrible, that little sequence made more sense than a lot of things that happen in the series, as far as character motivation is concerned.

I'm not reading any of the above posts because I've only read the first two books so far (over the past four days), but OMG I'm absolutely hooked! I really wasn't expecting to like them, becaus ethe arguments I'd heard against them seemed quite strong while the whole vampire thing held no attraction for me at all, but now, like I say, I'm hooked. I can't wait for Eclipse to be availab;e at the library again - I wanna read it! :)

That's exactly what happened to me:lol::lol:

I still remember how I got snared by twilight. I was browsing thru Barnes and Noble and had seen the twilight series display right smack in the front of the store a zillion times. I had absolutely no interest in the series at all because I just didn't care for the vampire genre.

But, I recall being increasingly restless now that HP was done and HBP was delayed. Finally, I picked up twilight one day, read the back cover, and decided to take a chance.

I read the first chapter and was completely unimpressed. I guess I was looking for the JKR wit and creative storytelling to come into play. I almost never picked it up again, but I was bored and decided to keep reading. I still wasn't completely won over after I read the first book, but by the time I was in the middle of new moon and found myself pining away for edward to return that's when I realized I was hopelessly addicted:lol:

[QUOTE=Caliope;5233891]....and another bites the dust.
:lol::lol::lol:

....and another bites the dust.

[/spoiler]

that made me laugh.

and i agree about the reaction Bella had to Jacob in the part of Eclipse. It was one of the only times i felt she truly stood up for herself in a good way (meaning i don't count her sticking with her decision to be vamped as a good thing). i would have done the same thing if i were in her place.

I'm not reading any of the above posts because I've only read the first two books so far (over the past four days), but OMG I'm absolutely hooked!

It is a common phenomenon. You have been dazzled.

It is a common phenomenon. You have been dazzled.

As, sadly, we all have been. Which is why we are on version three of this thread. *facepalm*

Oh, and regarding Jacob...that made me hate him. I can't take a stronger man pushing himself sexually on a woman lightly. I can't.

As, sadly, we all have been. Which is why we are on version three of this thread. *facepalm*

I was actually tempted to read Twilight again. I read two chapters before I realised what I was doing and put it back in the bookshelf. I shall not succumb again!

I was actually tempted to read Twilight again. I read two chapters before I realised what I was doing and put it back in the bookshelf. I shall not succumb again!

My sister-in-law borrowed all of my books so I gladly can't give in. Because I've been tempted to clear a few things up in my mind. Too much fan fiction. :lol:

I even gave up reading Twilight fanfic after Breaking Dawn. I suppose I lost the dazzle. Most of the time, I think that this is a good thing. However, discussing the Twilight series is still fun. I can't quit completely. :scared:

This is like a self-help group thread.

I even gave up reading Twilight fanfic after Breaking Dawn. I suppose I lost the dazzle. Most of the time, I think that this is a good thing. However, discussing the Twilight series is still fun. I can't quit completely. :scared:

This is like a self-help group thread.

Breaking Dawn actually left me with an insatiable need for fan fiction. I hated so much of it, enough of the important parts, that I needed something else. Most of what I read is very AU.

And yes to the group therapy. :yuhup: We obviously need it.

After I read BD and hated the series, I pretty much was lending out my Twilight books an a daily basis, since I vowed never to read them again. The last person I lent New Moon and Eclpse to is a girl I met at the beginning of the semester. I ended up pretty much hating her, so I kinda stopped talking to her, and I'm not even gonna bother asking for the books back.I only brought them with me to college in case I wanted to give the series another chance to redeem itself, but since I was never tempted to be re-dazzled I feel no need to get them back.

....and another bites the dust.

Spoiler tags for the newbie's benefit:

Moriath: Although I love Jake in general as a character, I don't understand his behavior in Eclipse AT ALL. It never felt natural or believable (that word keeps coming up, doesn't it?) to me. I mean, he never seemed that obnoxious or borderline abusive before. Although, ironically, his forcing himself on Bella brought about the most realistic reaction on her part: She punched him. Then, when Charlie didn't take her side, she got Edward to come pick her and unloaded all her frustration on him. Even though the way it begins is horrible, that little sequence made more sense than a lot of things that happen in the series, as far as character motivation is concerned.

:rotfl:, the one thing that was actually really rational of Bella

As, sadly, we all have been. Which is why we are on version three of this thread. *facepalm*

Oh, and regarding Jacob...that made me hate him. I can't take a stronger man pushing himself sexually on a woman lightly. I can't.
Heh - one of my friends calls Twilight 'the faceplam heard round the world.' I'm thinking of putting it on a bumper sticker. The Jacob issue is.....well, honestly I wonder why it's so easy for the fangirls to hate him for that, but dismiss all the things Edward does as 'romantic.'

For me, once I read Twilight the second time, I was committed to the love-to-hate-it part of this fandom, and nothing could surprise me after that. Breaking Dawn was like watching a train wreck in slow motion, and because I was expecting it, I actually enjoyed it in a weird, perverse sort of way.

It is a common phenomenon. You have been dazzled.

:lol::lol::lol:
I couldn't have described it better myself :lol: I was definitely dazed and dazzled when I was reading the series:lol:

As, sadly, we all have been. Which is why we are on version three of this thread. *facepalm*
QUOTE]


I know! I keep asking myself, how did this happen? How did I become a twilighter? :lol::lol:

[QUOTE=Moriath;5234068]I even gave up reading Twilight fanfic after Breaking Dawn. I suppose I lost the dazzle. Most of the time, I think that this is a good thing. However, discussing the Twilight series is still fun. I can't quit completely. :scared:

This is like a self-help group thread.

Exactly! I've made a conscious attempt not to touch the series since I finished BD, although I did read midnight sun which I loved.

It's just too addictive. I know once I start I won't be able to stop!:lol::lol:

I recall feeling very empty when I finished BD, and I realized I had been completely consumed by the books while I was reading them

No matter what criticisms people may have of SM and her writing, I know that if she ever put out another book I would be swept right back into the twilight universe and reading whatever she puts out.

Heh - one of my friends calls Twilight 'the faceplam heard round the world.' I'm thinking of putting it on a bumper sticker. The Jacob issue is.....well, honestly I wonder why it's so easy for the fangirls to hate him for that, but dismiss all the things Edward does as 'romantic.'

Though it may not have seemed like it lately what with my defense of young love :lol:, I do agree with that. I find it infuriating that so many people refuse to see what Edward does to Bella as overly controlling or emotionally abusive simply because "he's a vampire and stronger and does it out of luuuuuuuv". I get that he loved her. Yeah, I really do think he did. But that doesn't give him the right to act like her father and try to control every aspect of her life. Once she hits 18, that's up to her to do, not her boyfriend, friends, family, or spouse. Part of the reason she never grows up is because really, no one lets her. She is coddled from the moment James decides to attack her and the Cullens see what their world could do to her.

^You know what I just thought of? Maybe--just maybe!--Jake acted the way he did in Eclipse because that's what he thought Bella wanted. Beforehand, he was always a decent guy - listening to her, letting her do her own thing and decide what they'd do together, etc. - but still Edward had her heart. Maybe he thought that she would be more attracted to him if he acted more like the controlling/abusive type she was actually in love with. Just a thought.

I dearly hope Bella doesn't really enjoy being controlled and abused but if actually, if that really was what Jake was thinking, it makes complete sense. Edward does dazzle Bella randomly, to distract her mostly, and seriously, I can totally see your point Caliope.

Going back a few posts, I agree with the comments about the dismissal of Edward as romantic and Jacob as abusive. I hadn't even thought of that before, but it's so true.
So he kisses her against her will. Yeah, not very good behavior, but he IS a teenage boy running on hormones. Edward steals her engine and has Alica hold her hostage, and everyone's like "awww, he loves her so much, it's so sweet!" and it is rather strange.

^You know what I just thought of? Maybe--just maybe!--Jake acted the way he did in Eclipse because that's what he thought Bella wanted. Beforehand, he was always a decent guy - listening to her, letting her do her own thing and decide what they'd do together, etc. - but still Edward had her heart. Maybe he thought that she would be more attracted to him if he acted more like the controlling/abusive type she was actually in love with. Just a thought.


I think this is a great point. Edward and Jake are pretty different, so Jake acting more like Edward to get Bella makes sense.

Which do you think is worse: Edward controlling Bella ie taking her engine and having Alice kidnap her or Jake grabbing her and kissing her, twice.
I think that Jake forcing himself on her is worse, at least Edward never hurt her, he was just controlling. I guess it just comes down to is physical or emotional harm worse?

Going back a few posts, I agree with the comments about the dismissal of Edward as romantic and Jacob as abusive. I hadn't even thought of that before, but it's so true.
So he kisses her against her will. Yeah, not very good behavior, but he IS a teenage boy running on hormones. Edward steals her engine and has Alica hold her hostage, and everyone's like "awww, he loves her so much, it's so sweet!" and it is rather strange.

He doesn't only kiss her against his will. She nearly pulls his hair out to get him off her and he keeps going! She has to punch him to make him stop and he only laughs at her and doesn't once realise that what he did was wrong. Whenever I read the scenes, I get the feeling that Bella feels trapped and struggles against a supernaturally strong body. This isn't just a kiss, in my view. Moreover, I think even teenage boys can be expected to respect a girl's explicit wishes not to be violated in any way.

^You know what I just thought of? Maybe--just maybe!--Jake acted the way he did in Eclipse because that's what he thought Bella wanted. Beforehand, he was always a decent guy - listening to her, letting her do her own thing and decide what they'd do together, etc. - but still Edward had her heart. Maybe he thought that she would be more attracted to him if he acted more like the controlling/abusive type she was actually in love with. Just a thought.

I cannot agree with this theory. Edward patronised Bella and he pushed her around but not once did he become violent! Neither of them is the ideal boyfriend and I do not excuse Edward's actions. However, Edward actually learned from his mistakes. It was a slow process and it happened within the possibility of the story (meaning, Meyer's characters aren't known for character growth and development anyway). Granted, Edward likes beating himself up for things he can or cannot help but we don't see that Jake even realises that he crossed a line he shouldn't have crossed. Instead, he blackmails Bella emotionally, knowing her well enough to know that she would never let him walk into his death.

And Jake would probably rather die than imitate Edward's behaviour. :lol:

For me, I'm like -.- over Twilight. It's like me and kids. I can tolerate kids, but I'm not completely crazy over them. (Babies are a different story). Same with Twilight. I can finally read the series without screaming at the sickly sweetness oozing out of the prose (can I call it prose? >.<), but I don't savour it, if you know what I mean.

I think this is a great point. Edward and Jake are pretty different, so Jake acting more like Edward to get Bella makes sense.

Which do you think is worse: Edward controlling Bella ie taking her engine and having Alice kidnap her or Jake grabbing her and kissing her, twice.
I think that Jake forcing himself on her is worse, at least Edward never hurt her, he was just controlling. I guess it just comes down to is physical or emotional harm worse?


Yes, I tend to agree with you there. Edward never physically forced himself on her. I thought Jake was way out of line on that one. He was always on the edge when it came to bella. People always remember Jake forcing himself on bella in eclipse and attribute it to teenage hormones, but how about what happened in BD? Jake was definitely hurting her there at the wedding reception. Even Seth recognized that and helped Edward stop him.

Look, I can understand why some people feel that it might equate - Edward is overly controlling and often emotionally abusive, while Jake was sexually abusive toward Bella twice and also emotionally abusive. But really, I have to agree with Moriath.
There can be no comparison.

Anyone who chalks it up to "teenage hormones" has obviously never found themselves in a similar situation or has and are in deep denial. It is completely frightening when you realize that the boy kissing you, an unwelcome kiss, is much stronger than you and you really have absolutely no power to stop them if they don't want to. Mixed signals are no excuse. No one ever deserves that kind of violation.

I also agree with the "BZUH?!?" about Charlie - his little girl, his only child, gets kissed (unwanted) by the boy he is "rooting" for and instead of being outraged, instead of putting the fear of God into the kid, he chuckles. Even after he finds out Bella really did break her hand there is not a single word of reproach for Jake.
This tells me, as a reader, that it's okay for someone to take advantage of you - in fact, you might have even had it coming! So just laugh and smile about it and bury that feeling of violation. It's okay, really, just ignore your own body and mind screaming at you how wrong it is.

It was just a theory. I don't believe anything justifies that kind of behavior, whether it's hormones, reverse psychology, whatever, Jake was WAY out of line. I just wondered if that idea - the abuse - might've fueled his motivation for acting that way. Maybe I'm still clinging to the idea that Jake didn't just up and lose his mind for no reason - even if you're not a Jake/Bella shipper, you have to admit no one saw that coming.

I never said Jacob wasn't out of line, because he totally was. I do think he received mixed signals which, while not being any kind of real excuse, was certainly part of his motivation. And no one should just push hormones to the side; teenage boys are complete idiots when they give into them, and anyone who denies is just plain wrong.
But when it comes down to it, Jacob, while violating Bella by kissing her against her will, would never have done anything worse than that, despite never thinking he had done anything wrong.
In the end, I would rather my best guy friend kiss me against my will (because then you just punch them like Bella did, preferably without breaking a hand) than have a boyfriend who thought he had the right to control me the way that Edward did with Bella.

What I find disturbing about what Jake did was the Bella tried to pull him away. I'm completely new to the whole relationship game, but if I were a teenage boy with hormones run amok and in love with a girl, I think I might have tried to kiss Bella too, but not stopping when she made it clear she didn't want it was definitely way out of line.

It was just a theory. I don't believe anything justifies that kind of behavior, whether it's hormones, reverse psychology, whatever, Jake was WAY out of line. I just wondered if that idea - the abuse - might've fueled his motivation for acting that way. Maybe I'm still clinging to the idea that Jake didn't just up and lose his mind for no reason - even if you're not a Jake/Bella shipper, you have to admit no one saw that coming.

I think he acted completely out of character. Eclipse!Jacob was a wholly different person than New Moon!Jacob. I blame inconsistent writing. :shrug:

I think he acted completely out of character. Eclipse!Jacob was a wholly different person than New Moon!Jacob. I blame inconsistent writing. :shrug:

Yup, I totally agree. It was almost as though Meyer set out the bones of what she wanted, but in her haste to keep it pacy-ish, she left out some of the all important sensible development.

I appreciate a good Deus Ex Machina as well as the next person, notably a good strong and ironic one, but the Jacob-Bella connection was none of those.

I think he acted completely out of character. Eclipse!Jacob was a wholly different person than New Moon!Jacob. I blame inconsistent writing. :shrug:
And then there's that, haha. Like I said, just a theory.

I dunno why SM tried to push so hard for the love triangle, honestly. Did she think it was necessary for Edward to have a rival? Did she think it would make his relationship with Bella stronger? Did anyone really believe for half a minute that Bella would wind up with Jacob, even if Edward hadn't come back at the end of New Moon? I just don't get why Jacob was ever made into anything more than a friend in the first place; it makes no sense, it doesn't do anything good for the story. It doesn't even create a believable amount of conflict.

Yeah, I remember being surprised by the love triangle too- not so much by the fact that Jacob was interested (that was clear from the beginning), but that Bella ended up being in love with Jacob too. It was tough to buy that at the end of eclipse, because she never seemed remotely interested in him beyond friendship. When she kissed him back before he fights the newborns, I remember being very surprised.

I did read SM's explanation and I guess it does make some sense. Her argument on her website was that Bella only knew one way of falling in love- and that was the head over heels instantaneous, overwhelming love she felt for edward. So, she didn't recognize the gradual, more subtle way of falling in love that she experience with jacob when edward was away in New Moon. Still, despite SM's explanation, it still felt like bella's revelation regarding her feelings for jacob was a very sudden phenomenon.

I understand the gradual blossoming of a brother-sister type of friendship, but that's all it ever felt like to me. I never got the impression that Bella had any romantic feeling for Jacob, like, at all. Ever.

Not having ever truly truly fallen in love myself (nope, not counting crushes) I really can't tell the difference between love and friendship really, so I was under the impression that Bella was mistaking her friendship feelings for love.

I had the impression that romantic love conflicts were the only kind of conflicts that were portrayed in the Twilight series. I've said it before, Meyer created forced conflicts and disregarded logical and natural ones. So Charlie going berserk when he finds out about Bella choosing undeath and using his power as police chief to make life difficult for the Cullens or Renée disapproving of her daughter's teenage marriage, these potentially interesting conflicts were solved in a miraculously pleasant way and at the cost of character credibility.

I was also surprised to find out that Bella loved Jacob. It was obvious from the beginning that Jacob loved her, but I agree that Bella's romantic love for Jacob was completely forced.

Remind me why does Bella picks Edward over Jacob when she apparently loved them both?

I was also surprised to find out that Bella loved Jacob. It was obvious from the beginning that Jacob loved her, but I agree that Bella's romantic love for Jacob was completely forced.

Remind me why does Bella picks Edward over Jacob when she apparently loved them both?

Because of Jacob's actions. In New Moon, he was nice until Edward returned, then Jacob got jealous. In Eclipse, Jacob kissed her without her permission and she hurt herself trying to get him off her.

She forgave him after a while, but not that much.

Besides, she was much more in love with Edward then Jacob. It's the "Good girl" likes "Bad Boy" kinda thing.

oh, I got ya

Remind me why does Bella picks Edward over Jacob when she apparently loved them both?
Really? I mean.....really? I appreciate the character analysis you're trying to squeeze out here, but honestly there's no other way this could have gone. SMeyer couldn't have built up this ~~*EPIC*~~ vampire/human romance for four novels and then let Bella wind up with the werewolf kid. Plus, Edward and Bella are ~~*Soul Mates*~~ remember? I think the real point I'm trying to make here is there was never a choice. Jake was presented as an option as an attempt to make things more interesting, but Bella never had eyes for anyone but Edward. I know she says that loved Jacob too, but frankly I just don't buy it.

I guess it was just weird that the Jake love interest would even be in there at all then. I mean she only had eyes for her soul mate Edward, so why even have Jake there? The need for a love triangle? I mean, what is the point?!?

I guess it was just weird that the Jake love interest would even be in there at all then. I mean she only had eyes for her soul mate Edward, so why even have Jake there? The need for a love triangle? I mean, what is the point?!?

It's there to have some conflict in the story. The only thing I was surprised about is that Bella even realized she loved Jacob a little. I mean...okay, so while Edward was away, Jacob was a good shoulder to cry on basically. But when Edward returned, Jacob got well... crazy there for a while. Everything he did to her... I can't believe Bella even has any feelings for the pup.

So yes, I agree with you in that sense.

I too felt the whole love triangle thing never really had any footing. I knew as soon as I read the back of the first book that it was gonna be Bella and Edward in the end. That's why I always felt bad for Jacob, 'cause the poor kid was fighting for a completely hopeless case.

I agree with the above, no one really believed that Bella and Jake could really get together. It's possible if they became friends earlier, i suppose, but that would depend on how Meyer wrote it

Remind me why does Bella picks Edward over Jacob when she apparently loved them both?
Beats me :p

Personally, I loved the fact that Jacob and Bella's relationship became romantic. I didn't much care for the triangle either, but Bella and Jacob's relationship was refreshing to read because it was so much more realistic... I much preferred Jacob/Bella. The only reason I don't care for the triangle is because she got together with Edward. Did SM really not expect anyone to prefer J/B over E/B?

I suppose it depends on one's personal experience with love to see whether or not they would find Bella's romantic love for Jacob out of the blue or not, but I definitely thought it was obvious. Jacob became a part of Bella's life, the "hole in her" filled whenever she got near him. That is love - at least in my experience. The one you love becomes a piece of you, and you build a connection with them that is unique to any other relationship you have in your life at the moment. Bella formed a bond with Jacob that she didn't have with anyone else, and he helped repair her and became a part of her soul. She loved him. Hints for the romantic love I thought were present in the books as well. She does notice his looks quite a bit, and speaks very positively on them in a number of occasions ("you're sort of beautiful"). She loves the way she feels in his arms, or resting on his shoulder in the car... The hints are there. I was as frustrated as Jacob when it came to Bella's obliviousness.

^Well that is interesting - you raise some solid points there. I certainly don't doubt that, if Bella were a more normal (i.e. sane and responsible) teenager, she would have seen Jacob as a potential partner instead of Edward back in New Moon. But the whole reason she started hanging out with him in the first place was to fuel her auditory hallucinations of Edward's voice. In a different novel, Jacob and Bella might have worked, or if Bella could stop thinking about Edward, like, ever. But it's not, and she can't, therefore I did not buy it.

originally posted by Caliope
Well that is interesting - you raise some solid points there. I certainly don't doubt that, if Bella were a more normal (i.e. sane and responsible) teenager, she would have seen Jacob as a potential partner instead of Edward back in New Moon. But the whole reason she started hanging out with him in the first place was to fuel her auditory hallucinations of Edward's voice. In a different novel, Jacob and Bella might have worked, or if Bella could stop thinking about Edward, like, ever. But it's not, and she can't, therefore I did not buy it.

Personally, I preferred Jacob to Edward. I like Edward, but I never saw the intense appeal of him that so many fangirls did. But, I knew Bella would never fall for anyone but Edward so I never shipped B/J. I just preferred everything about Jacob over Edward for myself, but knew Bella would never agree.

I also have to say that I liked Jacob over Edward. I guess I just find his and Bella's love more realistic. I liked him until he forced himself on her, and then in BD when we have to heard him whining, it wasn't endearing. I just liked Jacob better, Team Jacob or whatever its called...

btw dweaslequeen, can I join you at the Scranton party? cuz a Scranton party don't stop!

Personally, I preferred Jacob to Edward. I like Edward, but I never saw the intense appeal of him that so many fangirls did. But, I knew Bella would never fall for anyone but Edward so I never shipped B/J. I just preferred everything about Jacob over Edward for myself, but knew Bella would never agree.
Oh yeah - I completely agree. Don't misunderstand me - I love Jake. He's my favorite character in the series, period. But he's not the man for Bella, and never was.

But he's not the man for Bella, and never was.
IMO he was portrayed as a better man for her than Edward was. Bella didn't immediately forget everything else when she was around him, she was able to laugh and joke and have a personality with him. Their relationship wasn't all about each other - they did things together and shared interests: riding motorcycles, hiking, hanging out together and just talking in the garage, and going on walks at the beach.. What did Bella and Edward have in common asides from obsessing for each other? Jacob also wanted Bella to know everything that was happening - he trusted her with information, and him and his pack even asked her for her suggestions on what to do, quite the opposite of the vampires.

The only reason, imo, that Jacob wasn't the man for Bella, was because SM stubbornly said so.

^Um....yeah. I don't think we're actually disagreeing here. Maybe I was just less surprised/miffed at the ultimate pairing than you were?

Their relationship wasn't all about each other - they did things together and shared interests: riding motorcycles, hiking, hanging out together and just talking in the garage, and going on walks at the beach.

To be fair, one can hardly call all the dangerous stunts they pulled together hobbies, at least not Bella's. Motorcycling and cliff diving were things she did to hear Edward's voice and she used Jake to get them done. I agree that New Moon!Jacob was healthy company for her but Eclipse!Jake was scary, unfair and manipulative. Moreover, he stopped listening to her. I liked their friendship a lot but I couldn't buy the love triangle.

Oh yeah - I completely agree. Don't misunderstand me - I love Jake. He's my favorite character in the series, period. But he's not the man for Bella, and never was.
In a more realistic world, he would have a much better chance with Bella than in Twilightverse

IMO he was portrayed as a better man for her than Edward was. Bella didn't immediately forget everything else when she was around him, she was able to laugh and joke and have a personality with him. Their relationship wasn't all about each other - they did things together and shared interests: riding motorcycles, hiking, hanging out together and just talking in the garage, and going on walks at the beach.. What did Bella and Edward have in common asides from obsessing for each other? Jacob also wanted Bella to know everything that was happening - he trusted her with information, and him and his pack even asked her for her suggestions on what to do, quite the opposite of the vampires.

The only reason, imo, that Jacob wasn't the man for Bella, was because SM stubbornly said so.
I agree, but to a certain degree. After he got intothe pack and Edward came back, Jacob became muh much worse. The thing is that I think a good healthy relationship isn't about obsession, it's about more of what Bella and Jake had, having both stuff in common and not in common and being able to have fun together and not just sitting around all day staring.

To be fair, one can hardly call all the dangerous stunts they pulled together hobbies, at least not Bella's. Motorcycling and cliff diving were things she did to hear Edward's voice and she used Jake to get them done. I agree that New Moon!Jacob was healthy company for her but Eclipse!Jake was scary, unfair and manipulative. Moreover, he stopped listening to her. I liked their friendship a lot but I couldn't by the love triangle.
Bella wasn't exactly the best company for Jake either. Yes, she liked him, and loved him to a certain degree, but she still used him and it was never "meant to be"

I was also surprised to find out that Bella loved Jacob. It was obvious from the beginning that Jacob loved her, but I agree that Bella's romantic love for Jacob was completely forced.

Remind me why does Bella picks Edward over Jacob when she apparently loved them both?

If I remember correctly, Bella admitted to herself at the end of eclipse that she loved both jacob and edward- but she loved edward more. He was the one she " couldn't live without."

^^ I never liked that reasoning. She never faced giving either of them up really, did she? The lack of sacrifice still grates on my nerves. She came out of the entire saga very well, but I feel that if one bad, truly bad, thing had happened, to make her question everything and come to crisis' core, then maybe I would have felt more for Bella in general.

If I remember correctly, Bella admitted to herself at the end of eclipse that she loved both jacob and edward- but she loved edward more. He was the one she " couldn't live without."
Yes, Jacob was her soulmate for life, Edward was her soulmate for eternity. That was apparently the reasoning.

And I didn't expect Jacob to end up with Bella at all, I just would have preferred it and hate it when authors refuse to listen to their characters and always fall back on their original plan when it just doesn't work anymore.

Beats me :p

Personally, I loved the fact that Jacob and Bella's relationship became romantic. I didn't much care for the triangle either, but Bella and Jacob's relationship was refreshing to read because it was so much more realistic... I much preferred Jacob/Bella. The only reason I don't care for the triangle is because she got together with Edward. Did SM really not expect anyone to prefer J/B over E/B?

I suppose it depends on one's personal experience with love to see whether or not they would find Bella's romantic love for Jacob out of the blue or not, but I definitely thought it was obvious. Jacob became a part of Bella's life, the "hole in her" filled whenever she got near him. That is love - at least in my experience. The one you love becomes a piece of you, and you build a connection with them that is unique to any other relationship you have in your life at the moment. Bella formed a bond with Jacob that she didn't have with anyone else, and he helped repair her and became a part of her soul. She loved him. Hints for the romantic love I thought were present in the books as well. She does notice his looks quite a bit, and speaks very positively on them in a number of occasions ("you're sort of beautiful"). She loves the way she feels in his arms, or resting on his shoulder in the car... The hints are there. I was as frustrated as Jacob when it came to Bella's obliviousness.


Hmmm... I never really thought of Jacob as a believable rival but you are right. Jacob is kind of the prototypical best friend, who eventually becomes a romantic interest. He did start out as a shoulder to cry on, and some times, I could see how that could blossom into romance. It's just that since SM told the story from bella's point of view, it was hard to ever imagine her having any type of attraction for him since she did not seem to realize it herself.

Has anyone ever seen the movie "some kind of wonderful?" The protagonist is male (eric stolz) and if I remember correctly, he was this ordinary guy (kind of like bella) in high school who has always been completely in awe and in "love" with lea thompson (sort of like edward) - the popular/unattainable gorgeous girl he finally gets a chance with.
He has a best friend who is female- gorgeous, always there for him, and completely in love with him- but he is completely oblivious to her feelings and never really takes a second look at her because he is so obsessed with lea thompson. Well, at the very end he has this sudden revelation that he is in love with his best friend.

I suppose that is sort of what happened to bella at the end of eclipse.

IMO he was portrayed as a better man for her than Edward was. Bella didn't immediately forget everything else when she was around him, she was able to laugh and joke and have a personality with him. Their relationship wasn't all about each other - they did things together and shared interests: riding motorcycles, hiking, hanging out together and just talking in the garage, and going on walks at the beach.. What did Bella and Edward have in common asides from obsessing for each other? Jacob also wanted Bella to know everything that was happening - he trusted her with information, and him and his pack even asked her for her suggestions on what to do, quite the opposite of the vampires.

The only reason, imo, that Jacob wasn't the man for Bella, was because SM stubbornly said so.

Yes, I have to admit that bella's relationship with jacob was more real and equal. Still, some times you don't fall in love with the person that's necessarily better for you. I think that's what happened here. Jacob was much healthier for bella than edward was. Both Jacob and bella even recognized that.

But it was too late. Bella was already too far along in her love for edward for jacob to change that. I think it was best said at the end of eclipse. I think bella refers to him as "her personal sunshine." Then jacob says something like, he can't stop an eclipse. That sums it up pretty well.

Yes, Jacob was her soulmate for life, Edward was her soulmate for eternity. That was apparently the reasoning.

And I didn't expect Jacob to end up with Bella at all, I just would have preferred it and hate it when authors refuse to listen to their characters and always fall back on their original plan when it just doesn't work anymore.
That's exactly it--exactly. I've had to scrap entire novels and start over when the characters turned out differently than what I first had in mind. It's a pain, but it's more worthwhile in the long run. I guess SM was too attached to the Bella/Edward story to let anything get in the way. Or, when something did get in the way (Jacob), she gave him a jerky personality transplant (Eclipse) to make him undesireable again.

phoenix: I've never seen that movie, but I have to ask you: The best friend character you're talking about, does she ever force herself onto the main character the way Jake does with Bella in Eclipse? If the story goes the typical route, then what happens is the best friend character appears in some way that makes the main character realize for the first time, "Hey, they're actually female/good looking/whatever--maybe that's the relationship I should be pursuing, rather than this vapid fantasy I've been obsessing over until now." The best friend never goes straight to the main character and beats them over the head with "I SHOULD BE YOUR ROMANTIC INTEREST! LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!" the way Jake does in Eclipse. I think in this whole scenario, Eclipse presents the biggest problem. If Jake hadn't approached Bella so blatantly or so violently, or if Bella had come to see him as a potential partner on her own, the conclusion of her being in love with both him and Edward and therefore needing to make a choice would be more believable.

I guess SM was too attached to the Bella/Edward story to let anything get in the way. Or, when something did get in the way (Jacob), she gave him a jerky personality transplant (Eclipse) to make him undesireable again.

The funny thing is that Meyer herself never found Jacob or his actions undesirable. She didn't write him as a jerk in Eclipse and she was bewildered by the strong reaction she got from a big part of her readership.

^Huh. Well maybe she is more attracted to the moody/possessive/violent types. *shrug* Doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but how else do you explain that?

Has anyone ever seen the movie "some kind of wonderful?" The protagonist is male (eric stolz) and if I remember correctly, he was this ordinary guy (kind of like bella) in high school who has always been completely in awe and in "love" with lea thompson (sort of like edward) - the popular/unattainable gorgeous girl he finally gets a chance with.
He has a best friend who is female- gorgeous, always there for him, and completely in love with him- but he is completely oblivious to her feelings and never really takes a second look at her because he is so obsessed with lea thompson. Well, at the very end he has this sudden revelation that he is in love with his best friend.

That's also about every Disney Channel movie there is really, completely overused, but i still find it much more believable and healthy than other types of love.


Yes, I have to admit that bella's relationship with jacob was more real and equal. Still, some times you don't fall in love with the person that's necessarily better for you. I think that's what happened here. Jacob was much healthier for bella than edward was. Both Jacob and bella even recognized that.

I agree
The funny thing is that Meyer herself never found Jacob or his actions undesirable. She didn't write him as a jerk in Eclipse and she was bewildered by the strong reaction she got from a big part of her readership.
REALLY?!?!:wow:
^Huh. Well maybe she is more attracted to the moody/possessive/violent types. *shrug* Doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but how else do you explain that?
I suppose she finds it romantic? or at least more drama?:hmm:

The funny thing is that Meyer herself never found Jacob or his actions undesirable. She didn't write him as a jerk in Eclipse and she was bewildered by the strong reaction she got from a big part of her readership.

I always knew she was a bit loony. :rotfl:

I mean... to me, Jacob is classified, in Eclipse, as a grade-A, all-around, jerk! He threw himself on Bella, and she hurt herself trying to pull him off! I mean... ugh!

I said it before, I say it again: NO author bashing, please. Voice your opinions respectfully and in accordance to Forum Rules #2a and #8. It should really not be necessary to post a reminder every few pages.

phoenix: I've never seen that movie, but I have to ask you: The best friend character you're talking about, does she ever force herself onto the main character the way Jake does with Bella in Eclipse? If the story goes the typical route, then what happens is the best friend character appears in some way that makes the main character realize for the first time, "Hey, they're actually female/good looking/whatever--maybe that's the relationship I should be pursuing, rather than this vapid fantasy I've been obsessing over until now." The best friend never goes straight to the main character and beats them over the head with "I SHOULD BE YOUR ROMANTIC INTEREST! LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!" the way Jake does in Eclipse. .

No, definitely not:lol: The "best friend" in the movie was a girl, so she didn't force herself on him. What happened was - I guess it sounds funny typing it but it did work well onscreen- she asked the protagonist (I forget the character's name) to kiss her as "practice" for when he tries to kiss the girl of his dreams. That was as much as she could do, and he still didn't get the hint that his best friend was crazy about him:lol:

It really was a great, old 80's flick though about the classic love triangle.
When I think about it, pretty in pink was kind of the same idea: the ordinary girl, the rich unattainable good looking guy, and the dorky best guy friend. Just like in twilight, even if the dorky best guy friend is the better match, molly ringwald still ended up with the "guy of her dreams" even though he didn't treat her too well along the way.

The funny thing is that Meyer herself never found Jacob or his actions undesirable. She didn't write him as a jerk in Eclipse and she was bewildered by the strong reaction she got from a big part of her readership.

Hmm... I have to say that it's not Jacob I have issues with- it's the manner in which he is transformed to suit different parts of the story, which make him, in my opinion, quite inconsistent. He was very unpredictable at times, and I don't really think that was inherent in his character from the outset. He seemed stubborn and disinclined to change his mind from a very early stage.. So it seems odd that he changed so much.

Perhaps Nessie was in part, a way to keep those who supported Jacob, happy? I'm not sure.

But to this day, I don't truly have anything against him as a person or a character. Perhaps his somewhat odd movements at times are just a note as to him overall immaturity, even in relation to Bella, what with being even younger than her?

I think that we should also keep in mind that Jacob was 15-17 for these stories. Remember that age? It was awful how confusing everything seemed. Throw the werewolf thing into the mix and I am not surprised that he is an inconsistent character. He is trying to figure out who he is, which is never easy. So while he did act the jerk many times, I think he just wasn't sure how to go about things.

I would much prefer Jake's inconsistancy to any of the other character's perfection. He was the sole star of the books. I think he outshines anyone, including Edward "Glitter Glue" Cullen.

I thought Nessie was a waste of space.

I think Jacob's imprinting on Nessie would have made more sense if his feelings for Bella were a little more mysterious. Perhaps if he expressed frustration with loving her (ie, unrequited, why would he), then we could see that it was only in anticipation of Nessie.

I'm not sure if I like Jacob anymore. I like him better than Edward and Bella, but does that mean I like him? I'm not sure...

I liked him in Twilight, and New Moon...but not the rest. mmm

just because i like Jacob more than Edward, does that mean I like him?

I think Jacob's imprinting on Nessie would have made more sense if his feelings for Bella were a little more mysterious. Perhaps if he expressed frustration with loving her (ie, unrequited, why would he), then we could see that it was only in anticipation of Nessie.

I suppose, but it wasn't as if he was expecting Nessie, so I don't see why he would.

I suppose, but it wasn't as if he was expecting Nessie, so I don't see why he would.

There has been talk that the addition of Jacob imprinting on Nessie was an unbelievable way to resolve the love triangle. I think that by having Jacob aware to a connection to Bella, but not why would perhaps have led to a smoother introduction of the imprinting.

^It also would have helped if Bella hadn't decided she loved him back--which still confuses the bejeebers out of me, by the way.

Rebel: I've been wondering that myself, lately. Reading through Eclipse again makes me question a lot of things. I mean, I know he's having a rough time what with the Teenage Boy Hormones and the transition to werewolfhood, but that doesn't excuse his behavior to me. If he showed a little more contrition afterwards, and stopped being so bloody possessive when Bella told him over and over that she wanted Edward in the end, I'd be more understanding.

Do you think a rapist gets to play the "I'm going through hormonal changes--I couldn't help myself!" card in court? HELL no. That's just an excuse, and a thin one at that.

And if Jake gets to hide behind his hormones, Edward should be allowed to do the same. Sure, he is over a century old but he is a case of arrested development. He's forever 17 in many ways. That makes him a hypocrite when he tells Bella that he knows better :lol: but Edward doesn't make a lot of sense most of the time anyway. All he does in Twilight is telling Bella to stay away from him while stalking her in her sleep and dazzling her on every occasion.

i don't want to bash any individual fans or the entire fan community, since they're pretty diverse on this, but i find it rather disturbing that some fans excuse the stalking behavior. I don't care how much you like twilight, Edward stalked Bella is a fact, not an opinion :lol:. I agree about Edward actually. And it's not really the hormones thing for edward to me, it's more that Edward has never really fallen in love,just like Jacob. I think for Edward, it's more of that he's not human rather than centuries old.

does never having fallen in love before excuse deviant behaviour? I think no...

I've never read these books and I don't plan to. I had never even heard of them, or the author, until last fall when the movie came out. Then all of the girls I know became obsessed with it. Just from reading the back of someone else's copy I've decided that it's not for me. I don't know any guys that have read it. The appeal seems to be entirely for girls. I don't say that to be sexist, just that love stories appeal more to girls usually, and they make a big deal about how good-looking Robert Pattinson's character is.

does never having fallen in love before excuse deviant behaviour? I think no...
I agree, but it helps explain it a bit


I've never read these books and I don't plan to. I had never even heard of them, or the author, until last fall when the movie came out. Then all of the girls I know became obsessed with it. Just from reading the back of someone else's copy I've decided that it's not for me. I don't know any guys that have read it. The appeal seems to be entirely for girls. I don't say that to be sexist, just that love stories appeal more to girls usually, and they make a big deal about how good-looking Robert Pattinson's character is.
I've met a guy who somewhat enjoyed the story before though, and is now mad at Jasper for stealing Alice :p, but I agree, it is more girl oriented. The book anyways, since it's from a girl's point of view. I still don't suggest either the book or the movie, but I did prefer the movie more. But since is this is the book thread I'll try not to elaborate.

I'm not trying to bash any fans here, but what I really don't understand how people can worry about how "hot" a character is in a book. All I seem to hear about Edward is that he's hot. And this is pre Twilight too. Have any of them ever seen Edward? Have they actually smelled that supposedly wonderful vampire scent? And I really don't think Meyer did a good job describing how beautiful he is in the first place.

That reminds me, Edward's eyes are golden right? I did a little test. I'm fairly good at Photoshop and while the picture i showed them was supposed to be creepy, i asked what was the creepiest part of the picture. It wasn't really a test....i just liked freaking everyone out :D. But anyways, nearly all of them said the eye was the creepiest part...Not how my features were like...not the makeup, not the hair, not the lip color or the blue hair, the yellow or well, golden eye.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/phoenixfyre6967/Image1goth-1.jpg

(that's not what I really look like by the way)

anyways, that's about the only real detail i can find about edward, other than that he has a boyish face and hair color (though i can't remember what it is, is it supposed to be like a reddish blonde? I forget) anyways, you get my point. Does just knowing someone is supposed to be hot warrant crush mode?

I'm not trying to bash any fans here, but what I really don't understand how people can worry about how "hot" a character is in a book. All I seem to hear about Edward is that he's hot. And this is pre Twilight too. Have any of them ever seen Edward? Have they actually smelled that supposedly wonderful vampire scent?

To be fair, this is how fandom works. If there is an adaptation fans do always, always worry that their favourite characters are cast to their satisfaction. When Tom Cruise was cast for Interview with the Vampire, people went crazy, protesting that he looked nothing like Lestat. Or if we talk HP, have a look at the casting threads in Muggle Studies. Does it matter that Dan Radcliffe doesn't have green eyes? For lots of fans it does. So I see nothing particularly obsessive about Twilight fans worrying about Edward's hotness. And, let's be honest, 90% of what we know about Edward is concerned with his looks. Bella is obsessed with his beauty and mainly thinks about how irresistible he is, not about what a great reader he is or how talented a piano player.

The thing is that Lestat and Harry were both fairly well described. I can't remember the exact words for Lestat, but it was something along the lines of a very expressive face, 6 foot high and other stuff that i don't remember without my book. For Harry, he was supposed to look like a nerd, knobbly knees, etc. Anyways, the thing is that Edward was barely described at all and everyone still obsesses.

While I have had crushes on fictional characters, I think it is weak to only like a character because they're 'hot'. And your right V8, the description of Edward is minimal, so what makes him so hot? it's definately not his eyes, golden eyes are creepy fo sho.

maybe he acts hot, like when he is standoffish in the beginning, some people find a jerky guy to be attractive. i dunno...weird...

I think it's Meyer's writing style. She's all about telling not showing. Bella is supposed to be a great reader, yet we never see her reading anything apart from the typical classics on the high school curriculum. But Bella says that she likes reading, so we have to take this for granted. And Edward is supposed to be irresistible because Bella says so. Repeatedly. :lol:

While I have had crushes on fictional characters, I think it is weak to only like a character because they're 'hot'. And your right V8, the description of Edward is minimal, so what makes him so hot? it's definately not his eyes, golden eyes are creepy fo sho.

maybe he acts hot, like when he is standoffish in the beginning, some people find a jerky guy to be attractive. i dunno...weird...

I personally don't see the appeal in his personality, but I'm not exactly like other girls out there. But anyways, even a girl talking about liking his personality (which i still say is minimal, but it's more than description of his looks anyways) is a bit more realistic than talking about his supposed hotness.

Another thing I find a bit odd. Do so many girls really like the exact same guy? It's apparently true but i just find it rather odd. I mean, with HP fandom, ok....i admit there are a lot of snape fangirls :lol:, but still, the fandom is a bit more spread out. There are Harry fans, Hermione fans, Ron fans, Sirius fans, snape fans, Voldy fans (like me :D), Neville fans, McGonagall fans, etc. I know that the characters in Twilight aren't exactly the best developed, but it didn't stop so many fangirls liking Edward, so why aren't there at least moderate fanbases for Jasper and Alice and Emmett, etc. I know they're there, but it feels far too concentrated onto Edward

they are probably so concentrated on Edward because, like Moriath pointed out, Bella tells us how beautiful Edward is every five minutes. Its like seeing a commercial for Pepsi during every commercial break, then going out and buying a Pepsi. Bella tells us all the time how great Edward looks, so we start to believe it.

I know they're there, but it feels far too concentrated onto Edward


I think it's exactly the vagueness of description you mentioned earlier that makes it so easy for lots of girls and women (and a few boys, I'm sure) to see the 'ideal guy' in Edward. He's supposed to look stunning and beautiful and has butterscotch eyes :lol: but apart from that it's up to everyone's imagination.

I think it's exactly the vagueness of description you mentioned earlier that makes it so easy for lots of girls and women (and a few boys, I'm sure) to see the 'ideal guy' in Edward. He's supposed to look stunning and beautiful and has butterscotch eyes :lol: but apart from that it's up to everyone's imagination.

I guess everyone else is better at imagining their perfect guy :rolleyes:.

Lets have a commercial break!

Edward is so hot! Imagine your perfect guy with butterscotch eyes today :D

Sorry, I just had to do that :lol:

I think it's exactly the vagueness of description you mentioned earlier that makes it so easy for lots of girls and women (and a few boys, I'm sure) to see the 'ideal guy' in Edward. He's supposed to look stunning and beautiful and has butterscotch eyes :lol: but apart from that it's up to everyone's imagination.


good point, he is the perfect Gary Stu to Bella's Mary Sue.

I think the big draw is the idea of someone feeling that enamored with you, that devoted to you. Not that someone would stalk you, but that they would (does that make sense?).

And since vampires do not change, that feeling will never go away. So both Bella & Edward will forever feel that "new in love" feeling forever. That is a very alluring idea. As a young girl, I always thought the fading of love was a bad thing, and I am sure most young girls feel the same. As a married with children adult I have realized that the initial "crazy in love" feeling fades, but something better is in the background. However, I would have never believed that as a teenager, which is who these books are geared to.

That said, they are entertaining books to read and I did enjoy them.

I know that the characters in Twilight aren't exactly the best developed, but it didn't stop so many fangirls liking Edward, so why aren't there at least moderate fanbases for Jasper and Alice and Emmett, etc. I know they're there, but it feels far too concentrated onto Edward
Oh, aren't there?:lol: No, I know what you mean. I don't quite understand it either.

Except.....

Well, part of it is that vague vampire/hot guy proxy, like Moriath said. Personally, my ideal vampire will always have raven black hair and emerald eyes, therefore Constantine from Sunshine will always trump Edward in my hotness book. However, apart from the vague idea that he's 'beautiful' and 'dazzling' you get the way Edward initially acts around Bella. It may be blindingly obvious to anyone who knows anything about vampires what his deal is, but to Bella, he's a puzzle, and that intrigues her. He flips between trying to avoid her and stalking her every waking moment; he saves her life several times even before they start dating, but insists that he's dangerous and she ought to keep away from him; he's decidedly different from all the other folks at the high school, an outcast/loner type, and because of her New Kid from Phoenix background, that makes Bella see him as having something in common with her.

But all that just explains why he appeals to Bella; perhaps Bella's Awkward Teenage Girl proxy makes it easy for a lot of the people reading this to put themselves in her place. I know a girl at work who's nineteen and has been dating this horrible guy off and on since I've known her. She's very pretty, but has no self esteem, and she adores Twilight. Says she sees herself as very much like Bella. I can only assume that there are so many awkward/self-conscience teenagers in the world like her, that they're the ones who contributed to Twilight's success. That depresses the hell out of me, but there must be some truth to it. Or it's a combination of that, and the 'guilty pleasure/crackfic' aspect of the writing style.

I think it's exactly the vagueness of description you mentioned earlier that makes it so easy for lots of girls and women (and a few boys, I'm sure) to see the 'ideal guy' in Edward. He's supposed to look stunning and beautiful and has butterscotch eyes :lol: but apart from that it's up to everyone's imagination.

My imagination was reeling from the sugary sweetness of it all and had to be taken to the ICU for fifty days before it recovered.

I personally don't see the appeal in his personality, but I'm not exactly like other girls out there. But anyways, even a girl talking about liking his personality (which i still say is minimal, but it's more than description of his looks anyways) is a bit more realistic than talking about his supposed hotness.

Another thing I find a bit odd. Do so many girls really like the exact same guy? It's apparently true but i just find it rather odd. I mean, with HP fandom, ok....i admit there are a lot of snape fangirls :lol:, but still, the fandom is a bit more spread out. There are Harry fans, Hermione fans, Ron fans, Sirius fans, snape fans, Voldy fans (like me :D), Neville fans, McGonagall fans, etc. I know that the characters in Twilight aren't exactly the best developed, but it didn't stop so many fangirls liking Edward, so why aren't there at least moderate fanbases for Jasper and Alice and Emmett, etc. I know they're there, but it feels far too concentrated onto Edward

Yeah, there are no bitter fighting of the ships in Twilight too. There are no Emmett/Alice shippers, or Jasper/Rosalie, or Jake/Alice (I was sort of Jalice-Jake and Alice-when I read Breaking Dawn, but the fire in me was killed instantly. But I'm still a Harry/Mione shipper) There's no draw into anyone, except for Edward.

It is quite unusual that the other relationships never really came into question. I sort of wished for apart of the series that there would be an issue with some of the characters- maybe that Carlisle and Esme would disagree about something quite big, or that Rosalie and Emmett would be a bit more volatile at times, seeing domestic problems in ways that we all do.. but it seemed so docile. Which is understandable generally, but it would have added another dimension...

Oh, aren't there?:lol: No, I know what you mean. I don't quite understand it either.

Except.....

Well, part of it is that vague vampire/hot guy proxy, like Moriath said. Personally, my ideal vampire will always have raven black hair and emerald eyes, therefore Constantine from Sunshine will always trump Edward in my hotness book. However, apart from the vague idea that he's 'beautiful' and 'dazzling' you get the way Edward initially acts around Bella. It may be blindingly obvious to anyone who knows anything about vampires what his deal is, but to Bella, he's a puzzle, and that intrigues her. He flips between trying to avoid her and stalking her every waking moment; he saves her life several times even before they start dating, but insists that he's dangerous and she ought to keep away from him; he's decidedly different from all the other folks at the high school, an outcast/loner type, and because of her New Kid from Phoenix background, that makes Bella see him as having something in common with her.
Actually, I would most likely be pretty interested in him, but I guess i'm too closed off to feel much more than friendship.

But all that just explains why he appeals to Bella; perhaps Bella's Awkward Teenage Girl proxy makes it easy for a lot of the people reading this to put themselves in her place. I know a girl at work who's nineteen and has been dating this horrible guy off and on since I've known her. She's very pretty, but has no self esteem, and she adores Twilight. Says she sees herself as very much like Bella. I can only assume that there are so many awkward/self-conscience teenagers in the world like her, that they're the ones who contributed to Twilight's success. That depresses the hell out of me, but there must be some truth to it. Or it's a combination of that, and the 'guilty pleasure/crackfic' aspect of the writing style.
I just always feel like Twilight is a formula.

a=perfect guy
b=awkward teenage girl
c=random talk about how wonderful love is
d=kissing
e=violence

a+b+c+d+e=obsessed fans

I can understand the feeling awkward no self esteem teenager age thing, I'm partially in it and it was worse a few years ago but anyways, it is pretty depressing how many people are like that, but still, Twilight can't be the only one of its kind, the awkward teenager thing is used quite a bit. I guess I've always liked the character that's awkward but really does have something more underneath, more like Harry, or just totally confident in the first place, like Voldy :p. Bella doesn't seem to have character development and I just find that depressing, if I wanted to be in her world, (ignoring becoming a vamp anyways)

Bella doesn't seem to have character development and I just find that depressing, if I wanted to be in her world, (ignoring becoming a vamp anyways)


it seems like Bella's only character development is becoming a vampire. I suppose she does become more confident when she discovers her shield power, but I never saw her as not confident before.

shouldn't characters develop and learn? that is how real people are so character development makes them seem more real. As real as a character could seem in a vampire story :p

Voldy: I know, that's the weirdest part - even though the story formula and characters aren't unique, the phenomenon surrounding it is has never been equalled. Harry Potter has a gigantic slew of fans all over the world, but it's a very different phenomenon, and a more classical/archetypal story (as opposed to just being predictable and cliched).

Maybe it's the fact that vampires, for whatever reason, are 'in' right now, plus the fact that the story is geared towards the most outspoken and squeeful demographic in the universe - teenage girls. You get teenage girls hooked on something, and you're rolling, no matter what the product is.

Voldy: I know, that's the weirdest part - even though the story formula and characters aren't unique, the phenomenon surrounding it is has never been equalled. Harry Potter has a gigantic slew of fans all over the world, but it's a very different phenomenon, and a more classical/archetypal story (as opposed to just being predictable and cliched).

Maybe it's the fact that vampires, for whatever reason, are 'in' right now, plus the fact that the story is geared towards the most outspoken and squeeful demographic in the universe - teenage girls. You get teenage girls hooked on something, and you're rolling, no matter what the product is.

:rotfl: too true.

Yeah, if it was totally unique, i could understand why it got so popular...but there are probably other books somewhat similar to it...

Twilight is a book that frankly makes no sense. Meyer's science, geography, and writing skills are off.

um, i agree with the science and writing part but what do you mean by geography? since i haven't been anywhere near Forks or Seattle or anything

She says that Forks is the rainiest town and it is not. She said Brazil was on the West Coast when it is in the East.

she said brazil is on the west coast? :rotfl: Where'd she write that by the way? It's an honest mistake on her part, everyone makes mistakes...but seriously....wha'ts wrong with her editors? :no: