The Twilight series by Stephenie Meyer v.3

Welcome to the third instalment. First day of the new year, shiny new thread! :D

For reference: version one (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=88941) and version two (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=117253).


For all those addicted to the series, this is the thread to discuss Twilight, New Moon, Eclipse and Breaking Dawn.

Twilight is a young adult vampire novel written by author Stephenie Meyer, originally published in hardcover in 2005. It is the genesis of the Twilight saga, and introduces seventeen-year-old Isabella "Bella" Swan who moves from Phoenix, Arizona to Forks, Washington and finds her life in danger when she falls in love with a vampire, Edward Cullen.

Yay! First poster. So, to kick things off, what are your opinions of Esme Cullen? I think she is motherly, sweet and extremely Molly-Weasley (in a nice way!) Out of all the Twilight chars, I like her and Carlisle the best.

Oh boy - new thread! Honestly I have no opinion of Esme Cullen. She seems nice, but she doesn't really seem to do much but hang around in the background and.....be nice.

Esme is just a cut-out of a mother figure. It seems like she had no personality so i therefore have no opinion on her.

Oh boy - new thread! Honestly I have no opinion of Esme Cullen. She seems nice, but she doesn't really seem to do much but hang around in the background and.....be nice.
Wow! A new thread! I don't have an opinion on her either. She didn't have much of a story to her. All we know of her is that Carlisle saved her when she jumped off of a cliff. She's nice, she's somewhat motherly, she's very caring, but we don't know much about her to have an opinion on the character. That's the thing, Meyer really didn't think out very much on descriptions and backgrounds of some of the characters.

^I haven't read 'Speak' yet, daggnabbit!

don't worry, I didn't really give away anything, it's all in the very beginning of the book and the other portion is on the back cover, I'm not that dumb :p

oooh, sparkly new thread:D

The thing is about Esme is that like the rest of Meyer's character is that she is just another 2D character....which just bothers me....

New thread! Yay!

I kinda find that I like Esme, for whatever reason. She's commanding enough that she can provide but altruistic enough that she never falters in helping those she loves. I like her power even though it's rarely seen. She seems well able and I think she suits Carlisle very well, so I like that. :D

And the glitter glue continues!

Oh boy - new thread! Honestly I have no opinion of Esme Cullen. She seems nice, but she doesn't really seem to do much but hang around in the background and.....be nice.

Esme always seems sweet, and i admire that she can love anyone, and was so supportive for Edward. But, like you've all said, she didn't leave a huge impression seeing as she didn't have an enormous role. I don't think that Esme really needed to leave a bigger impression than she did. She was sort of a background character...

The thing is about Esme is that like the rest of Meyer's character is that she is just another 2D character....which just bothers me....

Exactly. It seems none of Meyer's characters have any real depth to them, which makes it hard to form an opinion on anybody.

Esme does seem like a sweet, motherly figure though but that's about all we know about her.

And the glitter glue continues!

This is, I'm aware, a very stupid question.. but what is this glitter glue you all talk about? I thought it had to do with the sparkle effect in the film, but now I'm not so sure.. :sigh: Need to keep up with modern phraseology.. ;)

I was reading the pregnancy topic on the other thread, and I started thinking the other day about a few things *possible spoilers*
Ok on the subject of Imprinting, they have talked about it being a way to find a mate to pass on the shifter gene, Leah talks about how her body isn't right, if it was Sam would have Imprinted on her and Jacob asks something about if she thinks she'll ever Imprint on someone, and she goes onto say shes menopause and couldn't carry on the gene and so on.
So from what is in the book and things that SM has said, it seems that fertility and ability to produce children who will carry on the shifter gene is the main reason for Imprinting.
Now we go onto the facts SM stated that Female Vampires cannot become pregnant, due to the fact they are frozen in time, their bodies do not change and their body needs to change in order to have children, men do not change they can have children when they are 98 years old, ok so I can some what see all this, but heres where a major plot hole comes into play...
Nessie will grow for 7 years, after 7 years sge will stop growing, she is immortal. Nahuel is described as being a young man, and hes older than Edward.
So if after 7 years Nessie is a "full grown" young woman, her body will stop aging, she like her mother and the rest of the females will be frozen in time.
Obviously after 7 years her body will be frozen in time, she will be a young woman for eternity, just like the Female vampires, again they can not become pregnant because their bodies are frozen in time, they do not change, so this would logically mean that Nessie will not be able to become pregnant as her body will not change after 7 years, and yet Jacob Imprinted on Nessie.
My friend and I agree that its a pretty noticeable plot hole.

I was reading the pregnancy topic on the other thread, and I started thinking the other day about a few things *possible spoilers*
Ok on the subject of Imprinting, they have talked about it being a way to find a mate to pass on the shifter gene, Leah talks about how her body isn't right, if it was Sam would have Imprinted on her and Jacob asks something about if she thinks she'll ever Imprint on someone, and she goes onto say shes menopause and couldn't carry on the gene and so on.
So from what is in the book and things that SM has said, it seems that fertility and ability to produce children who will carry on the shifter gene is the main reason for Imprinting.
Now we go onto the facts SM stated that Female Vampires cannot become pregnant, due to the fact they are frozen in time, their bodies do not change and their body needs to change in order to have children, men do not change they can have children when they are 98 years old, ok so I can some what see all this, but heres where a major plot hole comes into play...
Nessie will grow for 7 years, after 7 years sge will stop growing, she is immortal. Nahuel is described as being a young man, and hes older than Edward.
So if after 7 years Nessie is a "full grown" young woman, her body will stop aging, she like her mother and the rest of the females will be frozen in time.
Obviously after 7 years her body will be frozen in time, she will be a young woman for eternity, just like the Female vampires, again they can not become pregnant because their bodies are frozen in time, they do not change, so this would logically mean that Nessie will not be able to become pregnant as her body will not change after 7 years, and yet Jacob Imprinted on Nessie.
My friend and I agree that its a pretty noticeable plot hole.

I agree with this too, but I guess Nessie could have a child before then too...:hmm:

I agree with this too, but I guess Nessie could have a child before then too...:hmm:


She could... but I honestly doubt Edward and Bells letting her. I mean remember how Bells flipped when she found out Jake had imprinted on Nessie? I dont think they're going to want Nessie to have a baby. It would take immense pleading to *maybe* convince them.

But then again, she could do a Bells and have a baby without her parents knowing.

Wow. I hadn't even noticed that plothole before. Kinda makes me hate the Jacob-impringting-on-Nessie thing even more than I already did. I mean, really. Probably the worst plot twist in the hole series in my opinion, and even more so now that I know about that immense plothole.

It might have worked without Meyer talking about how imprinting might be because of making stronger wolf babies. Something that would make more sense to me would be that imprinting makes the wolves less depressed which makes them feel better about themselves and solves internal disputes, but then again, then Sam and Emily wouldn't have worked :p

It might have worked without Meyer talking about how imprinting might be because of making stronger wolf babies. Something that would make more sense to me would be that imprinting makes the wolves less depressed which makes them feel better about themselves and solves internal disputes, but then again, then Sam and Emily wouldn't have worked :p


How about this: Imprinting in general seems to be about carrying on the species in the best way possible. Whatever the "source" of the imprinting, perhaps imprinting on a vampire was meant more to solidify the truce and union between the wolves and the vampires and therefore end a centuries long, if not millenial long blood feud between the two species. Like a Prince of one country marrying the Princess of another, which has been done since time immemorial, probably even before written history, in order to solidify relationsips with neighboring tribes and then countries, etc.

:p

How about this: Imprinting in general seems to be about carrying on the species in the best way possible. Whatever the "source" of the imprinting, perhaps imprinting on a vampire was meant more to solidify the truce and union between the wolves and the vampires and therefore end a centuries long, if not millenial long blood feud between the two species. Like a Prince of one country marrying the Princess of another, which has been done since time immemorial, probably even before written history, in order to solidify relationsips with neighboring tribes and then countries, etc.

:p

That's a possibility. There's always the chance though that nessie could have a child before she's permanently "fixed" so to speak.


I loved that Edward held onto his old fashioned traits! The fact that he wanted to save their virtues was more romantic to me than any male i've personally met. The pressures as a teenager are huge, and it was a breath of fresh air to have the main male not be so...eager? I loved that about Edward =)

I thought that was one of his most endearing qualities as well! When do you ever find a male who cares about "saving their virtues"? It was a refreshing role reversal.



I think at one point Stephenie had a blurb on her site of his New Moon. He was in a sewer in Italy...or something to that effect. It was when he got Rose's call, up to the "he's at the funeral" bit i think. It was really good! I really hope she at least gives us Midnight Sun!

That's right- I really enjoyed that excerpt!


Seriously!!! And Bella ended up liking their dance i thought it was so sweet! it's another example of Bella and Edward's role reversal! The girl usually wants to go to prom, and the guy begs not to and eventually does the whole "if i must" thing. Just like the whole "virtue" flop.

Exactly- another nice change from our typical male/female stereotypes!


i still love the series, and Bella seems good at heart. So i'm fine with her! But that doesn't mean i don't see the flaws
haha...if that's what we're calling the middle...

I feel the same way about bella too. She is definitely flawed but has a good heart.

on the subject of Renesmee and having children, I think it makes sense. I noticed the last time reading BD that Carlisle says Jacob has 24 chromosomal pairs. That's halfway between vampire and human, and it makes sense that this would be the same number for Renesmee (especially considering the fact that both the werewolves (shape-shifters) and Renesmee are invisible to Alice) since she's half and half. If we look at that, it would make sense for Jacob to imprint on her. The only question is whether or not her body will menstruate once she's full-grown. Since she is half human, I think it's possible for her to remain forever fertile, as her body remains forever alive.

Remember that blood brings food and oxygen to cells and carries away waste. If Renesmee's body uses blood, it can only mean that her cells process food into waste, thus changing. Now, the reason that we age is that our cells have a maximum number for multiplication. Each cell will only split so many times before it quits. An elderly person's heart gives out because the cells stop splitting, so there are no new ones to replace the dying. The process from infancy to adulthood is not aging, but progression - cell multiplication is higher than cell death. Aging is decline. What happens to Renesmee is only progression, but decline is impossible for her. Why? Probably because her cells keep splitting and reproducing forever. The old cells die, but they never stop splitting. I think that means her body changes, so I think she'll menstruate forever.

on the subject of Renesmee and having children, I think it makes sense. I noticed the last time reading BD that Carlisle says Jacob has 24 chromosomal pairs. That's halfway between vampire and human, and it makes sense that this would be the same number for Renesmee (especially considering the fact that both the werewolves (shape-shifters) and Renesmee are invisible to Alice) since she's half and half. If we look at that, it would make sense for Jacob to imprint on her. The only question is whether or not her body will menstruate once she's full-grown. Since she is half human, I think it's possible for her to remain forever fertile, as her body remains forever alive.

Remember that blood brings food and oxygen to cells and carries away waste. If Renesmee's body uses blood, it can only mean that her cells process food into waste, thus changing. Now, the reason that we age is that our cells have a maximum number for multiplication. Each cell will only split so many times before it quits. An elderly person's heart gives out because the cells stop splitting, so there are no new ones to replace the dying. The process from infancy to adulthood is not aging, but progression - cell multiplication is higher than cell death. Aging is decline. What happens to Renesmee is only progression, but decline is impossible for her. Why? Probably because her cells keep splitting and reproducing forever. The old cells die, but they never stop splitting. I think that means her body changes, so I think she'll menstruate forever.

Hmmm, I see what you mean. I suppose for as long as renesmee is half human, there should always be a part of her that should be fertile.

Yes, I suppose this is likely correct. Mind you, I'm not sure that a story would ever come from it. Perhaps we will get an answer to this in the upcoming Official Guide.. But I'm not sure.

Wow, nice ideas on the Nessie thing. I was thinking about it the other day, and here you guys have come up with so many theories. It's cool looking at this thread once in a while.

As for the part where Bella wouldn't let Nessie have a baby, well, I'll personally kill her if she does that. I have enough of her hypocritical nature. It's definitely OK for you to run off with the guy you love and lie to your parents (and saying that your mom's faint-hearted and what-not), but it's not OK for your best friend (whose heart you have trodden to bits) to imprint on your daughter. What is wrong with that girl? I'd never, ever want to be Bella, no matter what Steph says about her being the ideal girl.

The people on this site always have the best theories :D. And our teachers call whatever we do "analyzing", pfft. :p

And yeah, I know exactly what you mean MC! I mean, I can understand Bella's parents since it was a failed relationship but Bella knows that Nessie and Jake will be happy forever or at least in love forever. And seriously? Steph thinks Bella is the ideal girl?!?! i'm never going to become Bella if I can help it. I would end up permanently hating myself if I did...

How about this: Imprinting in general seems to be about carrying on the species in the best way possible. Whatever the "source" of the imprinting, perhaps imprinting on a vampire was meant more to solidify the truce and union between the wolves and the vampires and therefore end a centuries long, if not millenial long blood feud between the two species. Like a Prince of one country marrying the Princess of another, which has been done since time immemorial, probably even before written history, in order to solidify relationsips with neighboring tribes and then countries, etc.

:p
Yeah, that does make sense.

on the subject of Renesmee and having children, I think it makes sense. I noticed the last time reading BD that Carlisle says Jacob has 24 chromosomal pairs. That's halfway between vampire and human, and it makes sense that this would be the same number for Renesmee (especially considering the fact that both the werewolves (shape-shifters) and Renesmee are invisible to Alice) since she's half and half. If we look at that, it would make sense for Jacob to imprint on her. The only question is whether or not her body will menstruate once she's full-grown. Since she is half human, I think it's possible for her to remain forever fertile, as her body remains forever alive.
Just like to point out that Meyer's universe is pretty screwy at the biology part, since apparently vamps and humans can reproduce even though the chromosome numbers are different. And wolves and humans can produce fertile offspring despite chromosome differences, which is supposed to be biologically impossible.

Remember that blood brings food and oxygen to cells and carries away waste. If Renesmee's body uses blood, it can only mean that her cells process food into waste, thus changing. Now, the reason that we age is that our cells have a maximum number for multiplication. Each cell will only split so many times before it quits. An elderly person's heart gives out because the cells stop splitting, so there are no new ones to replace the dying. The process from infancy to adulthood is not aging, but progression - cell multiplication is higher than cell death. Aging is decline. What happens to Renesmee is only progression, but decline is impossible for her. Why? Probably because her cells keep splitting and reproducing forever. The old cells die, but they never stop splitting. I think that means her body changes, so I think she'll menstruate forever.
that's an amazing theory, but the problem is that what about vampires? do their cells never age and die or split? if that was true, then they wouldn't need blood, but they and nessie do. Also, Nessie is supposed to become very similar to a vampire once she grows enough, she's supposed to become frozen in time. Actually, scratch that, I think we should compare Nessie to werewolves. ok, even if we did that, vampires would be the odd one out.

Did I miss something? Is there a reason Nessie needs to procreate? Or are we just assuming that, because she's female, and important, she must be into the baby-making thing just like all the other females in the series? (Apart from Alice, who is awesome?)

We're discussing the plothole about how leah thinks that the reason imprinting occurs is to create better werewolves in the next generation, but Jake imprints on Nessie, and Nessie is supposed to be frozen in time like the vamps so she shouldn't be able to reproduce

We're discussing the plothole about how leah thinks that the reason imprinting occurs is to create better werewolves in the next generation, but Jake imprints on Nessie, and Nessie is supposed to be frozen in time like the vamps so she shouldn't be able to reproduce

That made things a great deal clearer. :) I too was rather confused as to how we got to talking about that! :D

I suppose that for me what it comes down to is "Leah thinks"- we don't know whether she's right or not. Nobody truly knows the reason why werewolves imprint, right? Maybe they do and I can't recall though?

well, it's also what the author wants us to think, which would make it a plothole.

Wow, nice ideas on the Nessie thing. I was thinking about it the other day, and here you guys have come up with so many theories. It's cool looking at this thread once in a while.

As for the part where Bella wouldn't let Nessie have a baby, well, I'll personally kill her if she does that. I have enough of her hypocritical nature. It's definitely OK for you to run off with the guy you love and lie to your parents (and saying that your mom's faint-hearted and what-not), but it's not OK for your best friend (whose heart you have trodden to bits) to imprint on your daughter. What is wrong with that girl? I'd never, ever want to be Bella, no matter what Steph says about her being the ideal girl.

I totallyt see what you're saying
And I don't agree with Steph either about her being the ideal girl...:err:

We're discussing the plothole about how leah thinks that the reason imprinting occurs is to create better werewolves in the next generation, but Jake imprints on Nessie, and Nessie is supposed to be frozen in time like the vamps so she shouldn't be able to reproduce
Oooooh - thanks!! haha, I was enjoying the discussion, but totally missed how/why it got brought up.

I believe I'm on the 'well she's part human, so maybe it's possible' side of the fence with this. Technically, she's the ultimate fantasy creature with all the 'best' qualities of being a vampire and being a human. Knowing SM, I bet being able to bear children is part of that equation.

(I also disagree about Bella being the ideal girl, hehe - Alice pwns her left, right and center. She can decorate and accessorize like a pro, she can kick butt in battle, and she doesn't whine about not being able to have children with Jasper - who is the ideal male, surely.)

As I see it, it couldn't possibly work. Jacob and Nessie may have 24 pairs of chromosomes but to assume that they're the same or even compatible would be a stretch. Mind you, I'm pretty sure that Meyer didn't think this through.

As I see it, it couldn't possibly work. Jacob and Nessie may have 24 pairs of chromosomes but to assume that they're the same or even compatible would be a stretch. Mind you, I'm pretty sure that Meyer didn't think this through.

That's what I was thinking, because Jacob and Nessie are totally different from one another in every single way, and so I assumed that the chromosome pairs, though the same number, would not be the actual same. But again, unless Meyer has a penchant for creating children from impossibilities, I can't see her ever straying down that path with the characters really. Nessie was a risky enough storyline, in my opinion.

I believe I would have liked Nessie more( or the story for that matter) if she was an uncontrollable being who tries to kill everyone the minute she was out. They would have been forced to kill her then, and the happy ending wouldn't have been so perfect. Or that Bella would have to take care of this dangerous being but at the end it was too much and she had to make a drastic decision. Jacob would have to deal with a broken heart, he wouldn't have imprinted and probably start forming a relationship with Leah, Edward would have to take care of an emotionally distressed Bella, and all the other Cullens would be there to help Edward. Or something like that because I really dislike happy endings when everything falls in place because that is just not realistic.

Nessie is just a prime example of a Mary Sue character. I really wish that she could have been the opposite.

As I see it, it couldn't possibly work. Jacob and Nessie may have 24 pairs of chromosomes but to assume that they're the same or even compatible would be a stretch. Mind you, I'm pretty sure that Meyer didn't think this through.

Maybe she wanted the happily ever after ending where everyone has someone.:whistle:

I believe I would have liked Nessie more( or the story for that matter) if she was an uncontrollable being who tries to kill everyone the minute she was out. They would have been forced to kill her then, and the happy ending wouldn't have been so perfect. Or that Bella would have to take care of this dangerous being but at the end it was too much and she had to make a drastic decision. Jacob would have to deal with a broken heart, he wouldn't have imprinted and probably start forming a relationship with Leah, Edward would have to take care of an emotionally distressed Bella, and all the other Cullens would be there to help Edward. Or something like that because I really dislike happy endings when everything falls in place because that is just not realistic.

Nessie is just a prime example of a Mary Sue character. I really wish that she could have been the opposite.

I don't dislike happy endings. I dislike perfect happy endings. Harry Potter was bad enough, but at least JKR could kill off Fred. Meyer couldn't do any of that.

I don't dislike happy endings. I dislike perfect happy endings. Harry Potter was bad enough, but at least JKR could kill off Fred. Meyer couldn't do any of that.

Yeah. I totally agree. You could tell JKR didn't want to kill off a lot of her characters, but at least she killed some of them. BD just ended so peachily with everyone so happy and perfect...it was just really disappointing. It sucks when characters you like die, but it also makes for a better book because it makes it more believable, even in fantasies.

Yeah. I totally agree. You could tell JKR didn't want to kill off a lot of her characters, but at least she killed some of them. BD just ended so peachily with everyone so happy and perfect...it was just really disappointing. It sucks when characters you like die, but it also makes for a better book because it makes it more believable, even in fantasies.

actually, I think more should've died, I mean, it was a war! But you can tell there were lots of casualties and everything. I guess it was ok that Jake got his bones broken but the final battle made me really annoyed

was it really so unexpected though? no one died at the end of any of the other books. At least with HP you could expect at least one character to die each book, and she told us it would be a blood bath in the last one. No one dies in any of the first 3 books, and I never heard Meyer claim she would kill anyone

I think the end was disappointing too, i'd love to see one of her characters bite it lol

was it really so unexpected though? no one died at the end of any of the other books. At least with HP you could expect at least one character to die each book, and she told us it would be a blood bath in the last one. No one dies in any of the first 3 books, and I never heard Meyer claim she would kill anyone

I think the end was disappointing too, i'd love to see one of her characters bite it lol

Yeah, I do think there should have been more of a faceoff with the volturi, but if there had been a battle some of the cullens would have surely died. It would have been sad, but not any less than hp. Sometimes it does make for a stronger story.

Then again, I still find it hard to believe she would just end the series this way despite her saying otherwise. First of all, I don't see how the story could be finished with the volturi still at large. They will undoubtedly hunt down the cullens and their allies again- even edward predicts that at the end of BD. Having the volturi just run off would be like leaving voldemort alive at the end of deathly hallows. Plus, SM's books are significantly more popular now because of the movie. It reminds me of what happened with hp, where once SS came out, a horde of new fans came on and followed the release of ootp, etc. Stopping at BD is almost like ending at GoF. It's finally clear that the volturi want to decimate the cullens. This was just a setback for them. They had to retreat in this instance but they were not defeated by any means.

Maybe she wanted the happily ever after ending where everyone has someone.:whistle:


Well, obviously. But the question is at what cost? She boycotted her own characters and story lines by explicitly contradicting canon.

Well, obviously. But the question is at what cost? She boycotted her own characters and story lines by explicitly contradicting canon.

I agree with you and I actually wish there was something bad just to give it a twist
But even then there would be fans who wanted that one charcter to live or something like that.

Well, obviously. But the question is at what cost? She boycotted her own characters and story lines by explicitly contradicting canon.

And along with that, which I entirely agree with, the point was made above that she never finished the story. I wanted to hear more and see more of how the Volturi fell. It's sort of as though Big Brother wins out in the end, get mildly rebuked and go back to ruling the world the next day, just as strong and unhindered as ever.

Which is all fine and well if the intention is to build something Orwellian. But in a romance-vampire story, it wasn't exactly expected, to be honest. Especially since the Volturi Survival didn't actually stand for anything as it would have in a dystopia novel. I simply expected them to be more punished and punishable.

I agree with you and I actually wish there was something bad just to give it a twist
But even then there would be fans who wanted that one charcter to live or something like that.

But JKR still had the strength to write out the deaths of her own characters, knowing fully well how angry some fans could be, but she also understand how it would make the story more believable and stronger which is what's really important

:agree: you're right
I'm not going to argue because I totally agree.. :D

and that's also why I love the harry potter series more than Twilight.

I agree with you and I actually wish there was something bad just to give it a twist
But even then there would be fans who wanted that one charcter to live or something like that.

True, but it shouldn't have really mattered to her. Sometimes you have to let the characters do their thing. Most great writers have admitted that their characters take on a life of their own.


And along with that, which I entirely agree with, the point was made above that she never finished the story. I wanted to hear more and see more of how the Volturi fell. It's sort of as though Big Brother wins out in the end, get mildly rebuked and go back to ruling the world the next day, just as strong and unhindered as ever.

Which is all fine and well if the intention is to build something Orwellian. But in a romance-vampire story, it wasn't exactly expected, to be honest. Especially since the Volturi Survival didn't actually stand for anything as it would have in a dystopia novel. I simply expected them to be more punished and punishable.

Yeah, I said that back on Volume 3 - The Volturi needed to go down. And I think she could have done it despite her protest that many beloved characters would have died. I don't believe it really. I think Bella showed how powerful she was with the blocking. At most, we could have gotten rid of Rosalie. :evil: And they could have found someone more pleasant for Emmett - that's a relationship I just don't get at all. Emmett the fun lovin' guy and Rosalie the, well, not so nice person. :p


But JKR still had the strength to write out the deaths of her own characters, knowing fully well how angry some fans could be, but she also understand how it would make the story more believable and stronger which is what's really important

Very true. As I said above, she was never going to be able to please all of the fans and quite frankly she wound up pleasing none of them really. BD was a total mixed bag. I didn't hate it, but I still found it unsatisfying.

I always wonder if she didn't write the battle scene because she couldn't. As someone who has dabbled in the art of creative writing, it's not always easy to describe certain situations. Notice how we don't see what the Cullens do to James. We don't witness the battle with Victoria and her newborns either. Yes, it's from Bella's POV, but how convenient, right? Then we get Bella at a battle and . . . nothing.

Unsatisfying, I say. Totally unsatisfying. I still think that the Volturi meant something - the old ways and the Cullens would be the new way. More democratic, less aristocratic. Not that the Cullens would "Rule" or anything but between them and the survivors from the Final Battle they could have thought of a better way to handle politics among their kind. In a way she showed, similar to JKR in HP with magic, that being a vampire doesn't necessarily make everything better either. I recall Bill Cosby's comic routine from the 1980s about drugs where he says that people tell him that cocaine is good because it amplifies your personality. And Bill Cosby asks, well what if you are "not a nice person"? Ahem, trying to keep it family friendly.

But you get the point. Being a vampire didn't make Rosalie better, it didn't make any of them better except maybe Carlisle who became a great doctor. It was better for Bella maybe in the sense that she was no longer the delicate flower that needed protecting from others and from her own clumsiness. Of course, I'm sure she was as stubborn as ever! :p

[QUOTE]Yeah, I said that back on Volume 3 - The Volturi needed to go down. And I think she could have done it despite her protest that many beloved characters would have died. I don't believe it really. I think Bella showed how powerful she was with the blocking. At most, we could have gotten rid of Rosalie. :evil: And they could have found someone more pleasant for Emmett - that's a relationship I just don't get at all. Emmett the fun lovin' guy and Rosalie the, well, not so nice person. :p

Yeah, some of the cullens would have been lost, and I don't think the deaths would have hurt the story. It didn't with hp. I guess stephenie really wanted her happy ending. I still think it could have been relatively happy the way hp is. Loss and sacrifice are a part of these conflicts. As long as edward, bella, nessie, and jacob survived the way the trio did in hp it would have been a somewhat happy ending.



Very true. As I said above, she was never going to be able to please all of the fans and quite frankly she wound up pleasing none of them really. BD was a total mixed bag. I didn't hate it, but I still found it unsatisfying.

yeah - I still enjoyed BD but I agree that there was no closure.


I always wonder if she didn't write the battle scene because she couldn't. As someone who has dabbled in the art of creative writing, it's not always easy to describe certain situations. Notice how we don't see what the Cullens do to James. We don't witness the battle with Victoria and her newborns either. Yes, it's from Bella's POV, but how convenient, right? Then we get Bella at a battle and . . . nothing.


That could be. I didn't think of that. You are right- we never get any details of the battle in any of the books. Not in twilight with james, not with the newborns ( I do recall being somewhat disappointed at missing the action there but at least we got edward and seth fighting victoria and riley), and of course, not with the volturi.

Unsatisfying, I say. Totally unsatisfying. I still think that the Volturi meant something - the old ways and the Cullens would be the new way. More democratic, less aristocratic. Not that the Cullens would "Rule" or anything but between them and the survivors from the Final Battle they could have thought of a better way to handle politics among their kind.

I still have to believe that there is a final showdown between the volturi and the cullens brewing in stephenie's mind somewhere! I stubbornly can't see it ending with the volturi just running off.

[QUOTE=ladykrystyna;5213927]
I still have to believe that there is a final showdown between the volturi and the cullens brewing in stephenie's mind somewhere! I stubbornly can't see it ending with the volturi just running off.
That's exactly the point. Exactly. It's not so much that none of our beloved main characters die, but the fact that the Voluri get to skulk off back to their dark tower in the end - with the idea that they might be back later with a better idea, so the Cullens aren't really getting away with anything either. They're just buying themselves a little time. NOTHING was resolved. It's just plain not finished.

[QUOTE=phoenix88;5213962]
That's exactly the point. Exactly. It's not so much that none of our beloved main characters die, but the fact that the Voluri get to skulk off back to their dark tower in the end - with the idea that they might be back later with a better idea, so the Cullens aren't really getting away with anything either. They're just buying themselves a little time. NOTHING was resolved. It's just plain not finished.

Seriously. It was all "they'll come back, but la la la till then." I mean, really? I wanna see some conflict!

Actually, SM is quite good at building up the momentum...and then...blah. If that's her idea of a plot twist, I want a refund of my twenty bucks! I don't blame Marcus for being so bored-I would too if I were in a sappy story like him.

The tension is great - that's what keeps you reading. Which in my opinion is one of the reasons folks get so frustrated with her - all that build up, all that combat training, and then nada.

EDIT: And on that note, Eclipse was infinitely more satisfying.

I agree. Eclipse was WAY more satisfying than BD. That's probably why I was so disappointed with the "big" confrontation at the end of BD. I get the whole chess analogy, I really do. But while that may work for some, the only time I like chess is when I'm actually playing it. It's kind of like golf in that way: fun to play, boring to watch.
And Marcus being totally bored the whole time in BD was actually insanely funny to me for some reason.

Actually, SM is quite good at building up the momentum...and then...blah. If that's her idea of a plot twist, I want a refund of my twenty bucks! I don't blame Marcus for being so bored-I would too if I were in a sappy story like him.


yeah she did a great job building the momentum, introducing all the new vampires, etc. The chess game aspect was great, but there was no definitive resolution. I know SM has said that twilight was bella's story and as far as she is concerned, bella's story is finished. However, I just don't see it that way. Bella's story isn't done until the volturi are dealt with. She'll always know they are still out there after her and her family. I can't see her resting easy knowing that.


I agree that eclipse, when I look back, was probably the best of the books in terms of balance. There was action, an actual fight, and plenty of romantic tension.

Actually, SM is quite good at building up the momentum...and then...blah. If that's her idea of a plot twist, I want a refund of my twenty bucks! I don't blame Marcus for being so bored-I would too if I were in a sappy story like him.

I defintely agree. Meyer is all about build up but she completely fails at doing proper conflict. We KNOW she can do it pretty well, as we see in Eclipse, she even had the sense to at least have some casualties, but BD was a complete disappointment. Except for not being able too look back at my book for details for discussion, I have not regretted returning it.

I get the whole chess analogy, I really do. But while that may work for some, the only time I like chess is when I'm actually playing it. It's kind of like golf in that way: fun to play, boring to watch.

HAHAHA - someone should put that on a bumper sticker. "Chess: It's fun to play, boring to watch!"

I know SM has said that twilight was bella's story and as far as she is concerned, bella's story is finished. However, I just don't see it that way. Bella's story isn't done until the volturi are dealt with. She'll always know they are still out there after her and her family. I can't see her resting easy knowing that.
Oh wow, I just thought of something - what about all the other half-vampires in South America that Alice and Jasper discovered? The Volturi are probably going to pay them a visit too, maybe start some sort of global power struggle the likes of which vampire kind hasn't seen before.

Ooooh, if only someone would write a real epic showdown like in Queen of the Damned...... This has so much potential for awesome it pains me to see it unrealized.

Ooooh, if only someone would write a real epic showdown like in Queen of the Damned...... This has so much potential for awesome it pains me to see it unrealized.

That's exactly what we needed in BD but we didn't get it. It's like, as a writer, she knew that there needed to be conflict, but she just didn't deal with it very well. She was just so focused on "Bella's story" she kind of forgot that stories have multiple elements.

It's kind of how I felt about the Harry and Ginny story thread in HBP and DH. I know that HP is not a love story and the story was about Harry and Voldemort and resolving that. But still, Ginny needed to have a place in DH and she became nothing more than a trophy girl. JKR should have expanded herself outside the Harry POV more and given us what was going on at Hogwarts and Ginny should have STAYED and she and Luna and Neville could have ruled the roost as the D.A. members, at least until Luna got kidnapped.

Same thing with BD - you are so right Caliope - the conflict of Queen of the Damned was about, well, the Queen of the Damned and the destruction she would rain down on the world if she wasn't stopped. She wasn't the proper "leader" for the vampires. She was narrow-minded and hadn't changed her stance in thousands of years. Times needed to change.

I felt the same about the Volturi, and I can't believe that Meyer wouldn't go there. I think sometimes when we write, especially if we are new writers, we get so focused on what WE want to do that we don't let the story evolve a little itself.

I just went through this over the last couple of days writing my own story and I found myself in a Twilight dilemma - I was so concentrating on one aspect of the story that I drew a blank about what my other major character was going through. I so wanted the two characters to go in a certain direction I forgot that I had to give them a real journey. My one major character was becoming 2D. I guess it's normal as you write and then you have to go back and edit. But it really got me thinking and I got out of that rut and I'm back on track.

Why didn't Meyer do the same? Who was her editor? I mean, aren't these people supposed to see problems like this and correct them?

I guess I've asked that a hundred times, right? :whistle:

I still say she could have played the chess game, the Volturi would still be stubborn and want to kill Nessie and then, BAM, battle and Volturi are taken down, and a new day dawns for the vampires.

HAHAHA - someone should put that on a bumper sticker. "Chess: It's fun to play, boring to watch!"


Oh wow, I just thought of something - what about all the other half-vampires in South America that Alice and Jasper discovered? The Volturi are probably going to pay them a visit too, maybe start some sort of global power struggle the likes of which vampire kind hasn't seen before.

Ooooh, if only someone would write a real epic showdown like in Queen of the Damned...... This has so much potential for awesome it pains me to see it unrealized.


Yeah.. I feel like SM had the best chance already for an epic showdown at the end of BD. She had gathered the most talented vampires together and matched them up against the volturi. Then we had bella with her supershield which I really liked btw, and if I remember correctly- each of the "good" vampires were already picking off their targets in the volturi guard ( tanya- caius, edward-demetri, kate- jane, one of the romanian vampires- alec). It was being set up to be a great match up on multiple levels. Emmett could have battled felix. Maybe Rosalie could have taken out renata. It kind of reminded me of xmen actually:lol:

It's too bad we never got to see any of them battle it out in hand to hand combat, so to speak. I know SM wanted a happy ending, but I still think we could have had a happy ending even with a fight. With bella's shield, the cullens did have the upper hand because of ben and zafira. So if, the cullens and the volturi fought it out- maybe a few of the good vampires would inevitably get killed- but as long as bella, edward, jacob, and the cullens make it- that would still be a happy ending- kind of like in hp where lupin and tonks get killed among others, but the trio and hagrid survive. I wonder who would have taken aro down? Maybe alice or bella!

I just hope she writes another book after BD that continues the story. If not, I hope we get some kind of appendix where we get a tasteful love scene and a battle scene. I still enjoyed BD, but I am sure she would have gotten a lot less complaints and left readers much more satisfied if she included those two things in the book.

About taking the Volturi down. I don't feel there is a major need for all of them to be killed, just at least some kind of battle where enough are killed so that they feel that they need to flee or get destroyed and don't dare ruling again. That would make much more sense to me than Volturi leaving and just coming back again, terrible "climax"

I felt the same about the Volturi, and I can't believe that Meyer wouldn't go there. I think sometimes when we write, especially if we are new writers, we get so focused on what WE want to do that we don't let the story evolve a little itself.

I just went through this over the last couple of days writing my own story and I found myself in a Twilight dilemma - I was so concentrating on one aspect of the story that I drew a blank about what my other major character was going through. I so wanted the two characters to go in a certain direction I forgot that I had to give them a real journey. My one major character was becoming 2D. I guess it's normal as you write and then you have to go back and edit. But it really got me thinking and I got out of that rut and I'm back on track.

Why didn't Meyer do the same? Who was her editor? I mean, aren't these people supposed to see problems like this and correct them?

I guess I've asked that a hundred times, right? :whistle:


Well, not all new writers are like that. For me, it's the opposite way. So many times, it feels as if it is my characters who are writing the story. Sometimes, it's almost as if they are taking my hand in theirs (like in pre-school, where your nusery teacher helps you to shape your first 'A'?) and are writing for me. Do I make any sense? :whistle:

Perhaps the editor was more fixated on the grammer/spelling errors or whatever then the plot points/holes and character developements. Whatever the case is, there are three words I want to say to Meyer: CHANGE YOUR EDITOR!

Another thing I've noticed, is that Meyer was too rushed with the series. 4 books in 3 years? No go. Citing JKR again (I notice I do that a lot :lol:), she got out 7 books in 17 years. Sure, it kept the people waiting, but it's worth waiting for, because at the end of the day, it isn't quantity or speed that counts, it's quality.

actually, I think more should've died, I mean, it was a war! But you can tell there were lots of casualties and everything. I guess it was ok that Jake got his bones broken but the final battle made me really annoyed

Call me crazy -- I actually liked that this was a gooey happy ending. I almost expected people to die in HP but in Twilight I was quite content to have them part happily in the sunset. I'd LOVE to see a story about Nessie and Jacob and how the Cullens/Pack are doing. Perhaps the Volturi come back, perhaps groups of covens decide to revolt and the Cullens get trapped in the middle, perhaps the Volturi want to irradicate the pack..the possibilities are endless.

I like happy endings. So many times in life we don't get happy endings so it was nice to feel all gooey and gooshie about this. I'm not sure how to describe it. I would have been furious had they killed Nessie/Edward/Jacob or ANY of the Cullens, the series would feel so incomplete without each contributing personality. (even Rosalie grumble grumble)

thoughts?

Well, not all new writers are like that. For me, it's the opposite way. So many times, it feels as if it is my characters who are writing the story. Sometimes, it's almost as if they are taking my hand in theirs (like in pre-school, where your nusery teacher helps you to shape your first 'A'?) and are writing for me. Do I make any sense? :whistle:
I definitely know what you mean except it hasn't gotten that major yet. I just sort of think, "wait, that character would NEVER do that!" and if even me, an extremely amateur 14 year old girl can have the sense to think that, Meyer, a fully grown woman who has already written a few published book and has the help of her editors should be able to do so too.

Perhaps the editor was more fixated on the grammer/spelling errors or whatever then the plot points/holes and character developements. Whatever the case is, there are three words I want to say to Meyer: CHANGE YOUR EDITOR!

I rarely pay attention to grammar and spelling, but I heard that even grammar and spelling was a bit off in places :lol:

Another thing I've noticed, is that Meyer was too rushed with the series. 4 books in 3 years? No go. Citing JKR again (I notice I do that a lot :lol:), she got out 7 books in 17 years. Sure, it kept the people waiting, but it's worth waiting for, because at the end of the day, it isn't quantity or speed that counts, it's quality.
Well, I wouldn't say rushed. Putting 3 years into 4 books is what i call drawing stuff out longer than necessary. I'm kind of guilty of making my stuff go too fast, but whatever. Anyways, JKR only really has one book per year.

Call me crazy -- I actually liked that this was a gooey happy ending. I almost expected people to die in HP but in Twilight I was quite content to have them part happily in the sunset. I'd LOVE to see a story about Nessie and Jacob and how the Cullens/Pack are doing. Perhaps the Volturi come back, perhaps groups of covens decide to revolt and the Cullens get trapped in the middle, perhaps the Volturi want to irradicate the pack..the possibilities are endless.

I like happy endings. So many times in life we don't get happy endings so it was nice to feel all gooey and gooshie about this. I'm not sure how to describe it. I would have been furious had they killed Nessie/Edward/Jacob or ANY of the Cullens, the series would feel so incomplete without each contributing personality. (even Rosalie grumble grumble)

thoughts?

I knwo it's slightly hypocritical for me to say this since I love fantasy because it's an escape from the real world, but the thing is that books should emulate the real world except that there are things that can be changed, like in Harry Potter, people can use magic. and in Twilight, there are vampires. Just because there are vampires in this world doesn't mean that if i suddenly get a boyfriend everything will end happily ever after with no casualties because of vampires. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I certainly do not like completely happy gooey endings. If there wasn't Nessie, at least we knew that Bella gave up something major but nope, Meyer is willing to completely contradict her own universe just for Bella. I'm not religious or anything, but if there was a God, realistically, God would not smile upon me as much as Meyer smiles upon Bella and Edward.

I knwo it's slightly hypocritical for me to say this since I love fantasy because it's an escape from the real world, but the thing is that books should emulate the real world except that there are things that can be changed, like in Harry Potter, people can use magic. and in Twilight, there are vampires. Just because there are vampires in this world doesn't mean that if i suddenly get a boyfriend everything will end happily ever after with no casualties because of vampires. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I certainly do not like completely happy gooey endings. If there wasn't Nessie, at least we knew that Bella gave up something major but nope, Meyer is willing to completely contradict her own universe just for Bella. I'm not religious or anything, but if there was a God, realistically, God would not smile upon me as much as Meyer smiles upon Bella and Edward.

That's my major issue with the way things ended, too. Bella was supposed to face consequences when she gave up her mortality - like having kids and seeing her parents - and she ended up not having like any because Smeyer wanted Bella to be special and for everything to be perfect. It just really bothers me.

^exactly! Meyer needs to realize that there are ways to have a happy ending without EVERYTHING being perfect and wonderful.

That's my major issue with the way things ended, too. Bella was supposed to face consequences when she gave up her mortality - like having kids and seeing her parents - and she ended up not having like any because Smeyer wanted Bella to be special and for everything to be perfect. It just really bothers me.

Yes, same. It was almost as though, despite the suspension of realism involved in the books, it went a bit too far with the ultimate perfection. I missed the idea that Bella would have to suffer, it seemed better to me that something, anything would have been almost too difficult to face.

[QUOTE]Call me crazy -- I actually liked that this was a gooey happy ending. I almost expected people to die in HP but in Twilight I was quite content to have them part happily in the sunset. I'd LOVE to see a story about Nessie and Jacob and how the Cullens/Pack are doing. Perhaps the Volturi come back, perhaps groups of covens decide to revolt and the Cullens get trapped in the middle, perhaps the Volturi want to irradicate the pack..the possibilities are endless.

I would love to see that story told!! It would be interesting to see things from Nessie's pov actually after she grows up and how Nahuel and the others fit in. You're right. The possibilities are endless. It may not be so centered on edward and bella anymore, but it would still be amazing.

I like happy endings. So many times in life we don't get happy endings so it was nice to feel all gooey and gooshie about this. I'm not sure how to describe it. I would have been furious had they killed Nessie/Edward/Jacob or ANY of the Cullens, the series would feel so incomplete without each contributing personality. (even Rosalie grumble grumble)

thoughts?

Well, what some of us were discussing is that they still could have had a big battle, but not have any of the cullens or jacob die. They may lose some of the other vampires and the pack but not the core characters-sort of like hp. I still think it would be a relatively happy ending, and a lot of fans would have felt more satisfied. I still didn't mind the ending we got but I agree that more closure was needed in terms of the volturi.

Personally, I won't read any more novels in the Twilightverse. Breaking Dawn really put me off. I don't want to read about Jacob and Nessie being perfectly happy with each other, then facing a minor catastrophe that turns out all right for everyone, and riding off into the sunset. I was hoping for Meyer's writing skills to develop in the course of the series but I felt disappointed after finishing the series.

Personally, I won't read any more novels in the Twilightverse. Breaking Dawn really put me off. I don't want to read about Jacob and Nessie being perfectly happy with each other, then facing a minor catastrophe that turns out all right for everyone, and riding off into the sunset. I was hoping for Meyer's writing skills to develop in the course of the series but I felt disappointed after finishing the series.

Couldn't agree more about the Jacob/Nessie thing. Like in BD when Bella was talking about how Carlisle or whoever told her about the vamp ladies who made vamp babies and were eliminated I totally knew she was gonna get preggers and the Volts were gonna feebly wave their fists in impotent rage at her but not do anything about it and everyone was gonna live happily ever after, I know that the minor conflict that would occur with Jacob and Nessie would end exactly the same way.

Well, not all new writers are like that. For me, it's the opposite way. So many times, it feels as if it is my characters who are writing the story. Sometimes, it's almost as if they are taking my hand in theirs (like in pre-school, where your nusery teacher helps you to shape your first 'A'?) and are writing for me. Do I make any sense?

Absolutely, and I totally agree. Every great writer has said that the characters took over. And I wonder this: when readers are dissatisfied with an ending or with a character and the path they took, is it because maybe the writer didn't let the character have its say and "forced" the issue, like I was doing? That when you let go and let them lead you, it has a better more natural feel to it?

Just a thought.

:shrug:

As to the happy ending:

In general, yes, I like happy endings. But it depends on the story and whether or not it should have a happy ending. Some stories are good because the ending isn't happy - it fits with the plot, with the characters, or with the theme that the book was trying to get across.

For the Twilight series, I think a happy ending was possible, just not as "perfect" as Meyer made it.

Part of me is willing to believe that Bella wasn't meant to suffer much in becoming a vampire because it was her "destiny" to not be human anymore (see some of my previous posts where I give my "excuse" or "explanation" as to why Bella may seem so anti-social with humans and why she seems to give all that up so easily for Edward). She was a clumsy shy human and her life seemed awful unhappy - so she gets a gift - becoming a vampire where she's strong and graceful and she somehow just feels more comfortable in that world.

On the other hand, Meyer made a big deal out of Edward telling her what she was giving up and it would have been nice for her to acknowledge that some how. To have some conflict ultimately in making that choice.

It could have started out in New Moon where, instead of being "comatose" for 4 months, she could have started hanging out more with the humans at high school, especially Angela. Yes, she should have been with Jacob as well, but I would have done it differently and had more romance. The whole "She had no idea that she was in love with him" made the Bella/Jacob "romance" pretty much luke warm for me. I saw how Jacob loved Bella, absolutely. But for me, Bella was just being a "tease". I got no indication at all that she might love him. I know it's from her POV and we're supposed to get hit over the head with it when she does, but I just don't like that kind of storytelling. I want to hear her thoughts as she agonizes over the feelings she's having. I want to KNOW. That's the point of seeing through someone's POV. Not necessarily Third Person Omniscient POV, but at least something.

So that's an improvement Meyer could have made right there - Bella starts to become more connected to the human world such that she can start to have some second thoughts about it all.

As for Nessie - I'm not sure what the plot point really was in Bella getting pregnant. Was it so Edward would have no choice but to change her? I figured that's one way that Meyer would have gone anyway. I figured Edward would never do it unless he had to. But I don't know if this was the best way to do it. Why a baby? It just feels "forced" to me. As for it being "perfect" for Bella, I never heard Bella say that she wanted children. She didn't even want to get married, so in having Nessie, the only thing it gave her was becoming a vampire. Yes, she loves her daughter, absolutely. But I don't see this as inherently something extra for her. It's not like "not having children" was ever a reason she considered for NOT becoming a vampire. Not that I remember anyway.

As for being a newborn - I thought it kind of went with Bella's ability to control her thoughts so strongly that even Edward couldn't read them. So at first it kind of makes sense.

Then again, it would have been nice to see her struggle with it, to realize that Edward was right, and for her to feel a little bit guilty, especially if she say, messed up and fed on a human or something, or even found herself going after Charlie.

As for the Volturi, either they had some kind of importance to the whole thing, or they were just put there for conflict. The way Meyer wrote it, it feels like the latter, when it could have been the former. And I've already given my humble opinion on possible battle scenes for that.

I just think that Meyer was so focused on telling "Bella's story" that she just either refused to branch out a bit, as JKR did (I mean, HP is quite a web of stories and not just about Harry; JKR seemed to have a good talent at making sure that you felt like you were part of this magical universe), or she just was not able to do it due to lack of experience. She took too much on perhaps.

And I think that maybe if she had taken some more time, gotten a better editor, it could have ultimately been a much better, richer, deeper story.

Personally, I won't read any more novels in the Twilightverse. Breaking Dawn really put me off. I don't want to read about Jacob and Nessie being perfectly happy with each other, then facing a minor catastrophe that turns out all right for everyone, and riding off into the sunset. I was hoping for Meyer's writing skills to develop in the course of the series but I felt disappointed after finishing the series.

i might just read just for purposes of seeing how much of a lesson Meyer learned. Overall, they were a good read and maybe after BD she can get better. But i absolutely refuse to buy another book from twilightverse, totally pointless.

Just like to point out that Meyer's universe is pretty screwy at the biology part, since apparently vamps and humans can reproduce even though the chromosome numbers are different. And wolves and humans can produce fertile offspring despite chromosome differences, which is supposed to be biologically impossible.


that's an amazing theory, but the problem is that what about vampires? do their cells never age and die or split? if that was true, then they wouldn't need blood, but they and nessie do. Also, Nessie is supposed to become very similar to a vampire once she grows enough, she's supposed to become frozen in time. Actually, scratch that, I think we should compare Nessie to werewolves. ok, even if we did that, vampires would be the odd one out.

sorry for taking so long to reply. I think you're write about that, and I think it's because Meyer didn't follow her plot to its logical conclusion before writing it. I was just trying to figure out from what we know of the characters what we could assume about Nessie. It's never been explained why vampires need to drink blood, so there's no way to know about their cellular activity. All we know is that their mouths are full of venom (and presumably other orifices as well since Bella's venom dissolved her colored contacts in BD). We don't know what their food does for their bodies or even what kind of tissue we're talking about at all when it comes to their make-up. It would be nice to know more about what Meyer thinks of all that since her vampire characters are so knowledgeable about pretty much everything supernatural and should therefore know more about themselves than she's let on in the books.


as for the lack of deaths in the series, I don't think it's right to judge Meyer on not killing characters. The story has always been "marketed" as one about a romance. It's not fair to compare it to Harry Potter just because they're both fantasy books. Harry Potter is more a hero epic than anything else, while the Twilight series is clearly a story about romance. One thing that the genre of romance entails is that an unrealistically happy ending is not out of the question, in fact it is quite possibly more a rule than an exception. Even Dracula, the most popular vampire novel, ends with only two deaths (minor characters). Lucy, who becomes a vampire after dying, even gets a happy ending by being "destroyed" by the vampire hunters and therefore sent to heaven.

I don't think it's necessary for there to have been deaths in the Twilight series because "realism" was never what Meyer was about in the books. None of it really makes sense as far as a typical "plot." You would expect that the hero and heroine come to this climactic moment where they realize they've fallen for each other and that's where the story would end, but that's not how Twilight went. Edward stood on the head of a pin for most of the book, and the solidification of the relationship was so indirect I was confused about what had happened at all. the rest of the series changes the typical "love story" outline considerably by having Edward abandon Bella and having her fall head over heels for Jacob. After that you might expect for Bella to just suddenly realize that it's Edward that she "truly" loves, but it remains a blurry line between friendship and romance for Bella and Jacob up until the moment Renesmee is born in BD.

I know I've written a novel here, but I think it's unfair to compare the series to other ones because I really don't think a story has to be realistic to be good.

^I agree about the Harry Potter comparison being unnecessary and irrelevent, and to some extent I see your point about the lack of deaths not being a huge problem. However, it's not so much the fact that no one died in the final standoff with the Volturi, but that the issues with them were left unresolved. So they decided, for now, to leave Nessie and the rest of the Cullens alone. Is that it? Are they giving up? Even SM said not really. So what happens now? Are we really expected to believe that Bella and her little family will, indeed, live happily ever after from now on? The Volturi strike me as the same kind of infinitely patient villain as Mum-Ra in Thundercats (yes, I'm referencing an '80s cartoon - what?) - they didn't get what they wanted now, but they're happy to just hang out for another, oh, hundred years or so to come up with a better plan. And then, they'll be back. The Romanians seem to feel the same way.

(In fact, I'm thinking about writing a fanfic centered on Nessie and Jacob with this in mind.)

Well, even if Twilight is a romance, there is still stuff like James and the Volturi. And so much is unresolved, which is the main problem. I was more of saying that a better resolution would include the Cullens and vampires stopping the Volturi permanently or at least more of a clearer victory involving actual combat and maybe not deaths, but at least injuries. Meyer had enough sense to make Bella suffer major injuries in Twilight, and Jake suffer broken bones in Eclipse, so why not in Breaking Dawn?

[QUOTE=Voldemorts8thHorcrux;5215855]Well, even if Twilight is a romance, there is still stuff like James and the Volturi. And so much is unresolved, which is the main problem. I was more of saying that a better resolution would include the Cullens and vampires stopping the Volturi permanently or at least more of a clearer victory involving actual combat and maybe not deaths, but at least injuries. Meyer had enough sense to make Bella suffer major injuries in Twilight, and Jake suffer broken bones in Eclipse, so why not in Breaking Dawn?[/QUOTE}

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned the ending is completely unresolved. Bella and edward may walk off into wedded bliss at the end, but it is not "forever" because there is no doubt with the volturi guard still intact and undefeated- they will be back to exact vengeance on the cullens.

That's why no matter what SM says, I can't see it ending this way. It's like leaving voldemort alive at the end of deathly hallows.

I agree that the ending doesn't really lead very well into the last lines of the novel, their own little piece of forever and whatnot. I don't think it was wrong to leave the plot the way she did, but she didn't acknowledge in the final lines that she was leaving them in a state of anticipation. The narrative became as that of closure when the plot was not at all closed. I could be happy with how the standoff with the Volturi went down if Bella had not appeared so oblivious to the inevitable future at the end of the book. I don't know that she should have made a more climactic (and final) Volturi battle as much as I think she should have made it seem as if Bella wasn't so happy and content with her future. But hey, it's better than a sappy epilogue where middle-aged characters are acting like teenagers.

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned the ending is completely unresolved. Bella and edward may walk off into wedded bliss at the end, but it is not "forever" because there is no doubt with the volturi guard still intact and undefeated- they will be back to exact vengeance on the cullens.

That's why no matter what SM says, I can't see it ending this way. It's like leaving voldemort alive at the end of deathly hallows.

Exactly, though I would love Voldy to be alive at the end, wouldn't be a good story to me :p. I feel the same about the Volturi, I like them and I don't hate them every fiber of my being, but as a story, they should be vanquished because it's supposed to be a sappy love story

I agree that the ending doesn't really lead very well into the last lines of the novel, their own little piece of forever and whatnot. I don't think it was wrong to leave the plot the way she did, but she didn't acknowledge in the final lines that she was leaving them in a state of anticipation. The narrative became as that of closure when the plot was not at all closed. I could be happy with how the standoff with the Volturi went down if Bella had not appeared so oblivious to the inevitable future at the end of the book. I don't know that she should have made a more climactic (and final) Volturi battle as much as I think she should have made it seem as if Bella wasn't so happy and content with her future. But hey, it's better than a sappy epilogue where middle-aged characters are acting like teenagers.

Yes- I can't imagine bella being completely oblivious to the fact that the volturi would be back. She was always such a worry wart too in the past. In eclipse she was either worried about the volturi or victoria. I know she's a powerful vampire now, but she should have realized that the volturi would come back to hunt them down again. Even edward admitted that. Now when I think about it, that whole "piece of forever" is completely temporary. I think it would be fine to let bella be happy for awhile- she deserved that. But, there should have been some indication that this story was far from over. The standoff against the volturi was the end of a battle, (well actually, the battle never even really started:lol:) but not the end of the war so to speak.

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned the ending is completely unresolved. Bella and edward may walk off into wedded bliss at the end, but it is not "forever" because there is no doubt with the volturi guard still intact and undefeated- they will be back to exact vengeance on the cullens.

(Emphasis added)

The interesting thing to note is that, not only is the book weird in that it finishes without the ending I so entirely expected and to an extent desired, despite my overall appreciation of the Volturi and their stories,it makes the notation that Edward and Bella will be together forever. Does SM mean us to believe that the Volturi will never, ever again try to get the Cullens onside?

There had to be a better way, imo, to make them finish their convoluted dealings with one another.

(Emphasis added)

The interesting thing to note is that, not only is the book weird in that it finishes without the ending I so entirely expected and to an extent desired, despite my overall appreciation of the Volturi and their stories,it makes the notation that Edward and Bella will be together forever. Does SM mean us to believe that the Volturi will never, ever again try to get the Cullens onside?

There had to be a better way, imo, to make them finish their convoluted dealings with one another.


Maybe Meyer wanted to leave that part of the story open. That way people can form their own conclusions about whether the Volturi come back or not. That open plot line leaves so much room for fanfic.

But also, imo, it is so obviously left open that it is like a cheesy old movie that ends with "the end?"

i wish that Meyer had ended the Volturi story line more definitely, but maybe she left it open for people's imagination.

Maybe Meyer wanted to leave that part of the story open. That way people can form their own conclusions about whether the Volturi come back or not. That open plot line leaves so much room for fanfic.

But also, imo, it is so obviously left open that it is like a cheesy old movie that ends with "the end?"

i wish that Meyer had ended the Volturi story line more definitely, but maybe she left it open for people's imagination.

You could very well be correct- but it does seem a bit too much of a romance story for it to be left open for further trouble, if you know what I mean. I guess that this does count as one of my biggest gripes with the books. :shrug: I guess it will always be that way! :lol:!

unfortunately :lol:. I did happen to like the open ending in The Host though, that was way better done to me than Twilight

^I'm insatiably curious about The Host now. I keep hearing such good things about it, but I don't know if I can convince myself to invest anymore time or money into Stephenie Meyers's work.

I agree that it leaves plenty of room for speculation and fanfic, and I believe she did say somewhere that, although Bella's story is over, she's not against the idea of expanding this universe a bit. I don't know if that's what she's intending to do, though. Personally I think it's just an accident, the type of which happens when author's let a story run away and just end it without summoning the energy to really end it.

I agree about the open-ended end of the Host was much better done than the end of BD. At the end of the Host I felt pretty much satisfied with the they way she left it, but at the end of BD I was just kind of disappointed.

i was trying to think of how Meyer could have changed the end of BD so that it was more final and I really couldn't think of anything. What should she have done differently, specifically?

well, i would've liked it if she had ended withanother battle instead

But how would that have been possible when you look at what was going on? The Cullens had amassed this huge group of witnesses with formidable powers; the Volturi were not going to just go at it without pause. Also, it was clear since New Moon that Bella's power was pretty serious - Aro acknowledged that from the beginning. That was always going to be key. Add that to the fact that the Cullens really have a lot of respect for the Volturi, and don't want to destroy them either. I don't see a battle as really plausible with all of this.

i was trying to think of how Meyer could have changed the end of BD so that it was more final and I really couldn't think of anything. What should she have done differently, specifically?

The battle should have happened. There should have been casualties. Bella's power should have unfolded once Edward was in dire straits, not right at the beginning. The whole thing was really anticlimactic. As it is, the conflict is still unresolved. The Volturi continue to be a threat and how could they forget how close they came to losing their unique status of power?

But how would that have been possible when you look at what was going on? The Cullens had amassed this huge group of witnesses with formidable powers; the Volturi were not going to just go at it without pause. Also, it was clear since New Moon that Bella's power was pretty serious - Aro acknowledged that from the beginning. That was always going to be key. Add that to the fact that the Cullens really have a lot of respect for the Volturi, and don't want to destroy them either. I don't see a battle as really plausible with all of this.
Even if the final un-battle was left as it is in the book, there should have been another conflict to resolve the Volturi issue - have them either dethroned or destroyed completely - by the end. That's the part that's left hanging that really bugs me.

But how would that have been possible when you look at what was going on? The Cullens had amassed this huge group of witnesses with formidable powers; the Volturi were not going to just go at it without pause. Also, it was clear since New Moon that Bella's power was pretty serious - Aro acknowledged that from the beginning. That was always going to be key. Add that to the fact that the Cullens really have a lot of respect for the Volturi, and don't want to destroy them either. I don't see a battle as really plausible with all of this.

Although I agree with Moriaththat there should've been a battle, there are ways to dethrone without one, but it doesn't happen. I really don't care what happens, as long as there is a resolution and I feel that a battle would be the best way to do it. And there is still a way to do a battle

My thoughts (this isn't perfect, but it's still way better than what Meyer did IMO): what if the Volturi, power hungry as always, decided that they wanted to destroy the vampires with the powers to stabilize themselves? A group of them try to go after Bella first, because they are afraid of what she could do and she attempts to make a shield, but instead of being so perfect like in Meyer's battle, she really has to struggle with it and it wavers at times. I hate how little she struggled once it was up and just how perfect her power was. But after a good bit of battling, and possibly a few deaths on both sides, Bella can finally manage to stabilize her shield and the "good vamps" could capture the volturi and say something about how they'll be killed if they struggle or whatever like they did to that newborn vamp in Eclipse. Then maybe since the Romanian vamps would have to touch Aro to trap him, he gives some random creepy vampy speech about how he sees into their minds and whatever and they get angry and kill him and tell the other Volturi to give up their power or else.

Then Meyer can write up a nice sweet little Epilogue about how Bella and Edward live happily ever after, blah blah blah, and maybe say how the Volturi do go back to bother them but in small numbers and by the time they do Bella has become good enough with her power to stop them blah blah blah the end

Ok, i'm sure someone else could write a better ending than that but i'd still rather read that than Meyer. She needs to learn the difference between anti climatic and predictable

I was reading the pregnancy topic on the other thread, and I started thinking the other day about a few things *possible spoilers*
Ok on the subject of Imprinting, they have talked about it being a way to find a mate to pass on the shifter gene, Leah talks about how her body isn't right, if it was Sam would have Imprinted on her and Jacob asks something about if she thinks she'll ever Imprint on someone, and she goes onto say shes menopause and couldn't carry on the gene and so on.
So from what is in the book and things that SM has said, it seems that fertility and ability to produce children who will carry on the shifter gene is the main reason for Imprinting.
Now we go onto the facts SM stated that Female Vampires cannot become pregnant, due to the fact they are frozen in time, their bodies do not change and their body needs to change in order to have children, men do not change they can have children when they are 98 years old, ok so I can some what see all this, but heres where a major plot hole comes into play...
Nessie will grow for 7 years, after 7 years sge will stop growing, she is immortal. Nahuel is described as being a young man, and hes older than Edward.
So if after 7 years Nessie is a "full grown" young woman, her body will stop aging, she like her mother and the rest of the females will be frozen in time.
Obviously after 7 years her body will be frozen in time, she will be a young woman for eternity, just like the Female vampires, again they can not become pregnant because their bodies are frozen in time, they do not change, so this would logically mean that Nessie will not be able to become pregnant as her body will not change after 7 years, and yet Jacob Imprinted on Nessie.
My friend and I agree that its a pretty noticeable plot hole.

hmmm...i wouldn't have thought of that. i'm not sure nessie won't be able to. she has blood, and therefore a heart beat. Nahuel has a heart beat and he's full grown. Interesting point...

She could... but I honestly doubt Edward and Bells letting her. I mean remember how Bells flipped when she found out Jake had imprinted on Nessie? I dont think they're going to want Nessie to have a baby. It would take immense pleading to *maybe* convince them.

But then again, she could do a Bells and have a baby without her parents knowing.



Nessie and Jake have eternity to do whatever they want to -if we think that Renesmee will be able to reproduce- they'll have plenty of time to have a real romance, and then think about kids. I think that what probably would've bothered Bella was the idea of Jake imprinting on her baby girl. Once Nessie is a full grown woman, the idea -mixed with the endless years aspect- i think it would be something she'd be used to...
Also might i point out that you can't exactly hide anything from Edward. He'd know her thoughts, and as soon as our figurative baby had thoughts like Nessie had, he would hear that too.
..what kind of twisted hybrid would that be? Shape-shifter mixed with hybrid vamp-human? holy crow! weird thought!!!
hmm...question - if Nessie is supposed to take seven years to be "full grown" will she look older than her eighteen -almost nineteen- year old mother?



Remember that blood brings food and oxygen to cells and carries away waste. If Renesmee's body uses blood, it can only mean that her cells process food into waste, thus changing. Now, the reason that we age is that our cells have a maximum number for multiplication. Each cell will only split so many times before it quits. An elderly person's heart gives out because the cells stop splitting, so there are no new ones to replace the dying. The process from infancy to adulthood is not aging, but progression - cell multiplication is higher than cell death. Aging is decline. What happens to Renesmee is only progression, but decline is impossible for her. Why? Probably because her cells keep splitting and reproducing forever. The old cells die, but they never stop splitting. I think that means her body changes, so I think she'll menstruate forever.

Although your point is perfect for our "yes nessie can reproduce" bit, i have to say that your last line...would suck. An eternity of cramps and crabbiness...poor jake.


that's an amazing theory, but the problem is that what about vampires? do their cells never age and die or split? if that was true, then they wouldn't need blood, but they and nessie do. Also, Nessie is supposed to become very similar to a vampire once she grows enough, she's supposed to become frozen in time. Actually, scratch that, I think we should compare Nessie to werewolves. ok, even if we did that, vampires would be the odd one out.

twilight vampires don't have blood. they have venom as a kind of replacement, and i think that's just so that their cells can move, and they're not total rocks...

.

I believe I'm on the 'well she's part human, so maybe it's possible' side of the fence with this. Technically, she's the ultimate fantasy creature with all the 'best' qualities of being a vampire and being a human. Knowing SM, I bet being able to bear children is part of that equation.

(I also disagree about Bella being the ideal girl, hehe - Alice pwns her left, right and center. She can decorate and accessorize like a pro, she can kick butt in battle, and she doesn't whine about not being able to have children with Jasper - who is the ideal male, surely.)

i agree with everything her Caliope =p

As it is, the conflict is still unresolved. The Volturi continue to be a threat and how could they forget how close they came to losing their unique status of power?

Not just that- but the vamps that watched will have lost some of the fear of the Volturi that allowed them to hold power. fear is key to minipulating anyone.

I haven't read the last book but I know what happens in it and I was wondering something. If Jacob imprinted on Nessie, if they're 'meant to be', and she is a vampire and he isn't, isn't she going to be pretty upset when he dies? Does that mean she has to spend the rest of her life alone?

I haven't read the last book but I know what happens in it and I was wondering something. If Jacob imprinted on Nessie, if they're 'meant to be', and she is a vampire and he isn't, isn't she going to be pretty upset when he dies? Does that mean she has to spend the rest of her life alone?


i think that as long as Jacob keeps turning into a werewolf, he doesn't age.

but this just reminded me about, what i think is, the worst cop-out of the book. they were all worried about Nessie aging too rapidly, and then that guy who is the same as her (can't remember his name) is like, "you get to this age then stop aging". the convienence of that answer is so annoying, just another way things just fall into place for Bella's happily ever after.

^Yeah, I also don't like the fact that most of SM's fantasy creatures don't have any inconveniences or weaknesses. The vampires can do out in daylight, can't be harmed by silver or stakes or garlic or crosses, and are fast and strong and beautiful without exception. The half-breeds age rapidly, but conveniently stop at the 'pretty' post-adolescent phase and stay there forever. The werewolves seem more or less on par with traditional fantasy creatures - they heal quickly, age very slowly, but they aren't immortal and they can harmed physically. Also the hive-mind of the pack makes privacy impossible, and the imprinting thing takes away free will.

So to answer your question, Rebel - I think the scenario you've come up with is possible. I doubt SM considered it, and I don't think she'll ever write it, but it is plausible for Jake to die and for Nessie to be left alone.

twilight vampires don't have blood. they have venom as a kind of replacement, and i think that's just so that their cells can move, and they're not total rocks...
I know, but i'm just saying it doesn't seem like Twilight vamps really need blood and they can't be starved to death.


i think that as long as Jacob keeps turning into a werewolf, he doesn't age.

but this just reminded me about, what i think is, the worst cop-out of the book. they were all worried about Nessie aging too rapidly, and then that guy who is the same as her (can't remember his name) is like, "you get to this age then stop aging". the convienence of that answer is so annoying, just another way things just fall into place for Bella's happily ever after.
I know seriously... But at least it's one of the few things that happen to Jake that are actually good....

^Yeah, I also don't like the fact that most of SM's fantasy creatures don't have any inconveniences or weaknesses. The vampires can do out in daylight, can't be harmed by silver or stakes or garlic or crosses, and are fast and strong and beautiful without exception. The half-breeds age rapidly, but conveniently stop at the 'pretty' post-adolescent phase and stay there forever. The werewolves seem more or less on par with traditional fantasy creatures - they heal quickly, age very slowly, but they aren't immortal and they can harmed physically. Also the hive-mind of the pack makes privacy impossible, and the imprinting thing takes away free will.
I like the werewolves way better....it's so annoying how perfect the vamps are. Couldn't they have at least one weakness humans could exploit (I mean a regular human, not a pack of wolves)

I'm gonna have to agree with the perfect vampire complaints, because it kinda miffs me that the Meyerpires are totally invincible against everything but "shapeshifters" (don't even get me started on that) and other Meyerpires. Every other vampire book/show/movie has at least a few weaknesses with their vampires. Not only are Smeyer's vamps invincible, they're all totally beautiful, so it's an all-around perfect thing.
The real issue I take with the perfect looking part of the Meyerpires is that none of the 'good' vamps are even remotely plain, only some of the bad ones are, like James and the old Volturi guys, and it didn't make sense. In the meadow scene Edward said something about how one of the reasons he's a perfect predator is because his prey is physically attracted to him, but then that part didn't apply to all of them, and I jus didn't understand it.

i do remember one of the Volturi who Bella said was as beautiful as Rosalie and I think Victoria (i think that was her name?) was scary but beautiful. Something like feline beauty i think.

And yeah I agree, it's such an annoying cliche. ok....if I suddenly decide that i'm going to turn evil, or well,more evil, and go out and kill random people and torture and whatever, i will not suddenly become extremely ugly. and speaking from personal experience, i used to be WAY more innocent and nice and all that, and I'm actually prettier now. :p (At least I think so :hmm:, I was just cute back then, but still relatively plain, still am, but not as plain) well, you get my point.

^Hm. Now that is an interesting point. There's a Raold Dahl book called 'The Twits' that has a chapter about how, if a person is physically attractive on the outside but evil or hateful on the inside, eventually that inner ugliness will come through. So there's a way to portray that without being totally superficial. I think the way Aro is described in New Moon is a decent example of that:
I couldn't decide if his face was beautiful or not. I suppose the features were perfect. But he was as different from the vampires beside him as they were from me. His skin was translucently white, like onionskin, and it looked just as delicate--it stood in shocking contrast to the long black hair that framed his face. I felt a strange, horrifying desire to touch his cheek, to see if it was softer than Edward's or Alice's, or if it was powerdy, like chalk.
Aro may or may not be physically attractive--Bella can't decide. The point is her perception of him is overwhelmed by strangeness and horror, so she can't see him as beautiful. Unlike all the Cullens, whom she adores, so she talks about how lovely they are all the time. It's a superficial and poorly drawn example of the same idea, but I can understand that to a certain extent.

That's why I like Jake's narration in BD--he doesn't have those The Cullens Are So Pretty And Awesome blinders on that keeps Bella from getting deeper in their characters.

*carefully avoids spoilers*

I saw the movie a week ago and loved it and now I'm reading the book; loving it even more. I never thought I'd see the day I'd read a romance novel...though I admit I probably wouldn't have gone near it if it hadn't been for the whole vampire lement to it. I'll return to post my thoughts when I'm finished with the book. I'm up to chapter 15. And then I'll have to seek out the other books too. :)

That's why I like Jake's narration in BD--he doesn't have those The Cullens Are So Pretty And Awesome blinders on that keeps Bella from getting deeper in their characters.

But that's part of the problem because throught Jacob's point of view we learn that there is no depth to the Cullens' characters. Rosalie, who could have been so much more after Eclipse, turns out to be as shallow as she always appeared to be. With Bella, we could still hope that she just couldn't look past the beautiful exterior.

The thing about Steph's characters are that they are so...stereotypical. I mean, Rosalie is the cheerleader, Emmet's the jock. Enough said about Bella and Edward. Jaz and Alice are probably the least stereotypical characters.

I'm gonna have to agree with the perfect vampire complaints, because it kinda miffs me that the Meyerpires are totally invincible against everything but "shapeshifters" (don't even get me started on that) and other Meyerpires. Every other vampire book/show/movie has at least a few weaknesses with their vampires. Not only are Smeyer's vamps invincible, they're all totally beautiful, so it's an all-around perfect thing.
The real issue I take with the perfect looking part of the Meyerpires is that none of the 'good' vamps are even remotely plain, only some of the bad ones are, like James and the old Volturi guys, and it didn't make sense. In the meadow scene Edward said something about how one of the reasons he's a perfect predator is because his prey is physically attracted to him, but then that part didn't apply to all of them, and I jus didn't understand it.

that is a good point. vampires are supposed to by very physically pleasing to humans, to draw them in ect. But all the vampires who are mean to Bella, and all the humans too, are described as ugly/not as good looking. Like your example of James and the Volturi, they were mean to Bella and are therefore ugly. Also Jasper, i can't remember the exact point, was mean to Bella, and when she becomes a vampire she notices that he is covered in scars = ugly.

It would make more sense if all the vampires were beautiful, at least then that part would be consistent.

But that's part of the problem because throught Jacob's point of view we learn that there is no depth to the Cullens' characters. Rosalie, who could have been so much more after Eclipse, turns out to be as shallow as she always appeared to be. With Bella, we could still hope that she just couldn't look past the beautiful exterior.
And this was a surprise to you? Even with the disappointment in Rosalie, I found Jake's stubborn refusal to sugar-coat all the Cullens refreshing.

Rebel: When was Jasper mean to Bella? And I kinda thought his scars were sexy.

That's why Jacob was my favorite character, because he was so up front about what he thought about the Cullens and Bella's attachment to them. Even when I still liked the series I appreciated his dislike of the Cullens, because it was so relatable in comparison to Bella's continued 'the Cullens are awesome!' after they left in NM.
But then alas, he became the victim of the worst plot twist I've ever read in a book and became kinda boring and one dimensional like everyone else.

Rebel: When was Jasper mean to Bella? And I kinda thought his scars were sexy.

well, when it wasn't his fault when Bella's finger got cut in NM. and I always got the impression he was never in love with Bella the way Edward, Alice, Carlisle and Esme were. He certainly didn't hate her, but he didn't go out of his way for her.

while I agree with you that his scars imply sexiness and danger, I don't think Bella saw it that way. To me it seemed like she thought he looked like Mad-Eye Moody.

Maybe that argument is kind of weak, since Rosealie was never nice to Bella and she is always described as beautiful. Who knows.

well, when it wasn't his fault when Bella's finger got cut in NM. and I always got the impression he was never in love with Bella the way Edward, Alice, Carlisle and Esme were. He certainly didn't hate her, but he didn't go out of his way for her.

I disagree with you there. I don't remember which book it was, but there was a time either while they were hunting/running from James in Twilight or some other time Bella was in danger and Jasper was with her he tells her, "you're wrong, you are worth it." I think he just keeps that safe distance that Edward initially places on him. I don't know what to say about that still being there after she changes, but I think he was in some serious emotional turmoil when he saw how easy it was for Bella, so it's still understandable that he would be distant regardless of his feelings for her.



The real issue I take with the perfect looking part of the Meyerpires is that none of the 'good' vamps are even remotely plain, only some of the bad ones are, like James and the old Volturi guys, and it didn't make sense. In the meadow scene Edward said something about how one of the reasons he's a perfect predator is because his prey is physically attracted to him, but then that part didn't apply to all of them, and I just didn't understand it.

I think it probably important to remember that the story is told from Bella's point of view, so 1. She's in love with Edward and you know during that initial period of a relationship nobody's as perfect or attractive as the person you're with, so her storytelling is going to reflect that state of mind. 2. She does know that they're all vampires and that their beauty is not a mystery to her, so she may just be desensitized by being with the Cullens all the time. Those are just my thoughts; I don't know if they're helpful or not.


Although your point is perfect for our "yes nessie can reproduce" bit, i have to say that your last line...would suck. An eternity of cramps and crabbiness...poor jake.

Now that I think of it, whether or not her body can change, every woman is born with a specific number of eggs and once they're all gone she stops menstruating. I don't want to know how that would effect Nessie since she is developing so quickly. (Imagine having your period more often than once a month!?) Anyway, she probably won't menstruate forever, but she will probably menstruate for a long time anyway, given that she really has to be able to reproduce if Jacob imprints on her.

well, when it wasn't his fault when Bella's finger got cut in NM. and I always got the impression he was never in love with Bella the way Edward, Alice, Carlisle and Esme were. He certainly didn't hate her, but he didn't go out of his way for her.

while I agree with you that his scars imply sexiness and danger, I don't think Bella saw it that way. To me it seemed like she thought he looked like Mad-Eye Moody.

Maybe that argument is kind of weak, since Rosealie was never nice to Bella and she is always described as beautiful. Who knows.

Eh, all that says to me that excessively beautiful people are arrogant and self centered, really not much better

The reason the beautiful vampires doesn't make sense is that it's not consistent. I wouldn't have minded if all the Meyerpires had been beautiful, because I've heard that in a lot of vampire books and stuff the vamps are all beautiful. I would have found it cheesy if it had just been all the bad vampires were ugly, but at least then it would have been consistent. But Bella described James as "unremarkable" in his looks and those old guys from the Volturi as not necessarily beautiful, but she thought Laurent was beautiful and whats-her-face with the purpleish eyes looked like a dark skinned/dark haired version of Rosalie. I basically just found it really weird that only like four of the bad guys weren't drop dead gorgeous.
And one of the reasons Bella wants to be a vampire is because she wants to look beautiful, as if it were a given that she would be when she was turned. The old Volts I can see looking weird because they're SO old, but what throws this off is James being unremarkable looking. Did the looks thing just skip him? I'd be kinda miffed if I were the only ugly vampire.

The reason the beautiful vampires doesn't make sense is that it's not consistent. I wouldn't have minded if all the Meyerpires had been beautiful, because I've heard that in a lot of vampire books and stuff the vamps are all beautiful. I would have found it cheesy if it had just been all the bad vampires were ugly, but at least then it would have been consistent.
it's a no win situation for me, it's either make them all beautiful or make the good guys inconsistent as well.

and that bothers me a bit. Nearly all the girls i've talked to say they like Edward because he's "hot". But seriously....why obsess over Edward? I really do not find him romantic, even in a creepy vampire weird, i just find him excessively dull and cliched....Why don't more of them obsess over like, I don't know, Jasper or Emmett or the other vampires in other novels?

But Bella described James as "unremarkable" in his looks and those old guys from the Volturi as not necessarily beautiful, but she thought Laurent was beautiful and whats-her-face with the purpleish eyes looked like a dark skinned/dark haired version of Rosalie. I basically just found it really weird that only like four of the bad guys weren't drop dead gorgeous.
And one of the reasons Bella wants to be a vampire is because she wants to look beautiful, as if it were a given that she would be when she was turned. The old Volts I can see looking weird because they're SO old, but what throws this off is James being unremarkable looking. Did the looks thing just skip him? I'd be kinda miffed if I were the only ugly vampire.
I can definitely understand the Volturi being not beautiful because they're so old, but I just don't get James....I don't really mind him, he happens to be one of the characters i actually enjoyed in Twilight, but it's still horribly cliched.

I always got the impression he was never in love with Bella the way Edward, Alice, Carlisle and Esme were. He certainly didn't hate her, but he didn't go out of his way for her.
Sure, but that's not because he's mean, it's because he's awesome. He's not blindsided by the "We must protect Bella at all costs even though she's an unremarkable klutz!" mindset that seems to have enveloped the rest of the Cullens. (Apart from Rosalie.) I got the impression that he helped her out those times because Edward or Carlisle or Alice asked him to, and he cares about them as his family, and he is the resident expert on vampire-on-vampire combat, so why not?
while I agree with you that his scars imply sexiness and danger, I don't think Bella saw it that way. To me it seemed like she thought he looked like Mad-Eye Moody.
I agree with you here, but I disagreed with Bella the whole way. After the meadow scene I just sort of ignored her inner monologue about how she felt about various characters and made up my own mind as to what they were really like.

Maybe that argument is kind of weak, since Rosealie was never nice to Bella and she is always described as beautiful. Who knows.
Like I said, it's an interesting theory, and I do see where you're coming from there. But it doesn't really apply in this particular context.

As for the rest of the arguments regarding Meyerpires and how they look, we've already talked some about Meyers's weak points with characterisations. Her descriptions of settings is really phenomenal; the people, both their personalities and looks, are mediocre at best. I was unimpressed by Edward. Jake is fantastic, barring the godawful plot twist at the end; Jasper, Carlisle and Alice have enormous potential, but they're left on the sidelines.

Honestly I never got a good handle on what Edward looked like. Except for the fact that he's supposed to be 'dazzling.' The characters I mentioned above stood out to me because they were different. Jasper has his scars, which means he has a history, and he's withdrawn and isolated without being antisocial or unfriendly. He's a huge mystery, and that's what makes him attractive to me. Alice is a mystery as well - she woke up in a mental institution with no memory whatsoever of her human life, but she bounced back from it so well it more than compensates for the few shortcomings of being a vampire. She has a great attitude about anything, never worries, always knows how to make the people she cares about feel better, and she doesn't smarm all over Jasper the way Bella does over Edward. In fact, I kinda wonder how the two of them got together in the first place - I mean soulmate nonsense aside, what is it that makes them such a good match? Notice a lot of this is based on how they act and what they've done - not what they look like. That's what makes them interesting characters. Take away Edward's 'dazzling' physical attractiveness, and what's left? A possessive, bipolar boyfriend who sneaks into Bella's bedroom at night, lies to her, and throws her around to 'protect' her from beings allegedly more dangerous than himself. He's just a jerk.

In fact, I kinda wonder how the two of them got together in the first place - I mean soulmate nonsense aside, what is it that makes them such a good match? Notice a lot of this is based on how they act and what they've done - not what they look like. That's what makes them interesting characters. Take away Edward's 'dazzling' physical attractiveness, and what's left? A possessive, bipolar boyfriend who sneaks into Bella's bedroom at night, lies to her, and throws her around to 'protect' her from beings allegedly more dangerous than himself. He's just a jerk.

Couldn't have said it better. I feel like a lot of - and I'm not trying to offend anyone by saying this, honestly - fangirls are really obsessesed with Edward because he's soooo hott. I know not all of them are, but a lot of them are. I've seen some message boards on Twilight sites.

The battle should have happened. There should have been casualties. Bella's power should have unfolded once Edward was in dire straits, not right at the beginning. The whole thing was really anticlimactic. As it is, the conflict is still unresolved. The Volturi continue to be a threat and how could they forget how close they came to losing their unique status of power?

Yes, I completely agree:tu: There needed to be some kind of resolution at the end of BD. As long as the volturi are still around, I just don't see how bella could possible live "happily ever after." It's more like- "happily ever after... for now":lol: I think a battle with some casualties would have been predictable but a still more satisfying ending than the one we got.

I liked the fact it was a happy ending, it was the fact that the "happy ending" didn't really make sense in the context of the situation that irked me.


Rebel: When was Jasper mean to Bella? And I kinda thought his scars were sexy.

I found jasper to be incredibly sexy too:lol: I think the battle scars and that element of danger is what I found so attractive. In many ways he was far more of a "bad boy" than edward ever was. Jasper's history in eclipse with the newborn armies, etc made him much more intriguing than sometimes even edward:lol:


[QUOTE]and that bothers me a bit. Nearly all the girls i've talked to say they like Edward because he's "hot". But seriously....why obsess over Edward? I really do not find him romantic, even in a creepy vampire weird, i just find him excessively dull and cliched....Why don't more of them obsess over like, I don't know, Jasper or Emmett or the other vampires in other novels?


Looks aside, I liked edward because of his old world gentlemanly charm actually- he was sort of the proverbial bad boy who turned out to have a heart of gold. I found his chivalry and dedication to bella refreshing, and it was nice to see a male character not constantly trying to seduce his girlfriend for once. It was a change of pace to see the female character constantly throwing herself at the male protagonist and getting rebuffed. I actually found a lot of those scenes downright hilarious:lol: He was also quite the romantic- composing the lullaby for bella, humming her to sleep, etc.

Yes, edward was a control freak but he did loosen up by the middle of eclipse and at the end of the day, I liked him because his heart was usually in the right place and he was incredibly devoted to bella. Plus, the fact that he was basically good at everything didn't hurt:lol:

And this was a surprise to you? Even with the disappointment in Rosalie, I found Jake's stubborn refusal to sugar-coat all the Cullens refreshing.

To a certain extent, yes. Eclipse seemed to - finally! - introduce character development. Especially the ending was hopeful because Bella made a decision of her own. But we were back to square on in Breaking Dawn. Jacob's point of view was refreshing but couldn't safe the book for me. It was almost as if one of Meyer's characters realised how wrong the book was on many, many levels. It seemed like a parody inside a cliché-heavy novel and it was rather bewildering.

Yeah, when I look back moriath eclipse was probably the best of the books.

It did have more character development and had just the right balance of romance and action. We got the climactic battle scene at the end, but there was also that tension from the love triangle as well. I think my favorite chapter in that book was "fire and ice" when jacob becomes bella's personal "space heater". That was hilarious! :)

I also enjoyed the backstories of rosalie and jasper. They really added a lot to their characters.

I was so disappointed in Breaking Dawn to see that the character development we got for Rosalie in Eclipse was all but forgotten. She had finally gained depth, we understood her reasons for treating Bella the way she did, and then in BD it was used to explain why she would watch Bella die.

You know, disappointed isn't even the right word for how I felt about that.

I was so disappointed in Breaking Dawn to see that the character development we got for Rosalie in Eclipse was all but forgotten. She had finally gained depth, we understood her reasons for treating Bella the way she did, and then in BD it was used to explain why she would watch Bella die.

You know, disappointed isn't even the right word for how I felt about that.

I know! At first when Rosalie was really protective of preggersBella I thought she was turning into a friend....PSYCH! Smeyer totally regressed Rosalie's character to pre-Eclipse, and it really was very disappointing.

Sure, but that's not because he's mean, it's because he's awesome. He's not blindsided by the "We must protect Bella at all costs even though she's an unremarkable klutz!" mindset that seems to have enveloped the rest of the Cullens. (Apart from Rosalie.) I got the impression that he helped her out those times because Edward or Carlisle or Alice asked him to, and he cares about them as his family, and he is the resident expert on vampire-on-vampire combat, so why not?
I understand why they all wanted Edward to be happy and felt bad for Bella but I never really did understand why they loved her that much....Well, i can get how Alice loves Bella, she's just alice and there is an explanation in Midnight Sun, but I do'nt get everyone else.

I agree with you here, but I disagreed with Bella the whole way. After the meadow scene I just sort of ignored her inner monologue about how she felt about various characters and made up my own mind as to what they were really like.
:lol:


As for the rest of the arguments regarding Meyerpires and how they look, we've already talked some about Meyers's weak points with characterisations. Her descriptions of settings is really phenomenal; the people, both their personalities and looks, are mediocre at best. I was unimpressed by Edward. Jake is fantastic, barring the godawful plot twist at the end; Jasper, Carlisle and Alice have enormous potential, but they're left on the sidelines.
Meyerpires are insanely annoying...She really cannot describe her characters. If I were to compare them to people in real life, they would be my classmates that I only barely know. I know their basic attitude, but do I really know who they are inside, or at least simple things like hobbies and favorite subjects etc, not really

Honestly I never got a good handle on what Edward looked like. Except for the fact that he's supposed to be 'dazzling.' The characters I mentioned above stood out to me because they were different. Jasper has his scars, which means he has a history, and he's withdrawn and isolated without being antisocial or unfriendly. He's a huge mystery, and that's what makes him attractive to me. Alice is a mystery as well - she woke up in a mental institution with no memory whatsoever of her human life, but she bounced back from it so well it more than compensates for the few shortcomings of being a vampire. She has a great attitude about anything, never worries, always knows how to make the people she cares about feel better, and she doesn't smarm all over Jasper the way Bella does over Edward. In fact, I kinda wonder how the two of them got together in the first place - I mean soulmate nonsense aside, what is it that makes them such a good match? Notice a lot of this is based on how they act and what they've done - not what they look like. That's what makes them interesting characters. Take away Edward's 'dazzling' physical attractiveness, and what's left? A possessive, bipolar boyfriend who sneaks into Bella's bedroom at night, lies to her, and throws her around to 'protect' her from beings allegedly more dangerous than himself. He's just a jerk.

You're not alone there. I do not know even Edward very well. If edward wasn't so dazzling, i have a feeling Bella wouldn't like him as much. She wouldn't be so affected by his dazzlement and she would have a much clearer mind about being annoyed at him :p. I have no idea what he looks like and I just know enough about his personality to be annoyed at him. Ok, it is refreshing for the guy and the girl's traditional roles to be switched, but still won't make me like him enough to even think about wanting to like date him or something

Couldn't have said it better. I feel like a lot of - and I'm not trying to offend anyone by saying this, honestly - fangirls are really obsessesed with Edward because he's soooo hott. I know not all of them are, but a lot of them are. I've seen some message boards on Twilight sites.
All of them I've met are but there are hopefully those who have enough of a mind that hasn't been polluted by hormones to see reason and like him because he's the guy for them and not because he's just hot

yeah, I really can't see why Bella and Edward belong together besides the fact that she swoons for him. what about them really makes them meant for each other?

Sure, but that's not because he's mean, it's because he's awesome. He's not blindsided by the "We must protect Bella at all costs even though she's an unremarkable klutz!" mindset that seems to have enveloped the rest of the Cullens.

:lol: good point! could it be possible that Jasper is the most awesome of the Cullens?


Take away Edward's 'dazzling' physical attractiveness, and what's left? A possessive, bipolar boyfriend who sneaks into Bella's bedroom at night, lies to her, and throws her around to 'protect' her from beings allegedly more dangerous than himself. He's just a jerk.

I agree, hes lucky hes pretty or he'd be hauled away on abuse charges

:lol: good point! could it be possible that Jasper is the most awesome of the Cullens?

hahaha - I sure think so. He and Alice together are like Team Awesome of the Cullen Brood, with the rest of them (protagonists included) falling far short.

:lol: good point! could it be possible that Jasper is the most awesome of the Cullens?
him an Alice were the only two Cullens Meyer succeeded in actually making interesting :p


I agree, hes lucky hes pretty or he'd be hauled away on abuse charges

yeah really :lol:

I do like the way this thread is going. Jasper has long been, with Carlisle, my favourite character, and I've not gotten out of that phase yet, so yay! :D

I love them because their stories are interesting and captivating, but without falling into the melodrama. Jasper's is, to me, akin to any of the Volturi stories, which I also enjoyed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1q-c3jKCaQ

I don't care whether or not you watch the vide, but guess what? The comments aren't all about how awesome Edward is :D

I do like the way this thread is going. Jasper has long been, with Carlisle, my favourite character, and I've not gotten out of that phase yet, so yay! :D

I love them because their stories are interesting and captivating, but without falling into the melodrama. Jasper's is, to me, akin to any of the Volturi stories, which I also enjoyed.

Jasper and Carlisle's back stories are the best. It seems we know more about Jasper's human life than Edwards! Knowing more about the character, their back story and why they are, the way they are makes the character more real and therefore interesting. Why is it that the most interesting character is basically just a back round character?

I know really. Problem with Edward is that we really don't know enough of his background. In some cases, background stories are overkill but it seems like Jasper's or Edward's or Carlisle's or basically anyone's but Bella's background stories would be much more interesting.

Jasper and Carlisle's back stories are the best. It seems we know more about Jasper's human life than Edwards! Knowing more about the character, their back story and why they are, the way they are makes the character more real and therefore interesting. Why is it that the most interesting character is basically just a back round character?
Excellent question. One theory of mine is that Meyers, once she got to Eclipse, had had a smidge more practice at writing and learned how to create a more substantial character, but that only happened after she'd created Edward and Bella.

Jasper owns Edward in so many ways. I mean, all the time Edward's going on and on about how hard it is to restrain himself around Bella, what with her intoxicating scent and his one-hundred-some-odd years of virginity (which would make anybody cranky, I admit). But Jasper, having been a soldier in his human life, and a full-fledged killing machine for the first hundred years or so of his vampire life, shows a lot more willpower and strength of character, having not been raised as a 'vegetarian' and being so new to the Cullen brood. Also let's not forget that Edward was the first Cullen besides Carlisle. He ought to have this restraint thing figured out by now, freesia-scented-blood notwithstanding.

I know Jasper doesn't have the same attraction to Bella that Edward does, because he's not her 'soulmate' and all, but he hasn't been practicing the not-eating-humans thing for as long. And what happened in the first book? They put Bella in a car, and then a hotel room, alone with both Alice and Jasper, and nothing happened. (Apart from the James incident, I mean.) We all love Alice, we know she'd probably be able to distract Jasper enough to prevent any accidents. But still! Does that seem phenomenally stupid to anyone else? Unless of course, you consider the fact that Jasper is, well, awesome.

(I've been a bit obsessed with Jasper lately, heh.)

Jasper owns Edward in so many ways. I mean, all the time Edward's going on and on about how hard it is to restrain himself around Bella, what with her intoxicating scent and his one-hundred-some-odd years of virginity (which would make anybody cranky, I admit). But Jasper, having been a soldier in his human life, and a full-fledged killing machine for the first hundred years or so of his vampire life, shows a lot more willpower and strength of character, having not been raised as a 'vegetarian' and being so new to the Cullen brood. Also let's not forget that Edward was the first Cullen besides Carlisle. He ought to have this restraint thing figured out by now, freesia-scented-blood notwithstanding.



I never thought of it like that. Taking that into consideration, Jasper pretty much kicks butt.

Jasper owns Edward in so many ways. I mean, all the time Edward's going on and on about how hard it is to restrain himself around Bella, what with her intoxicating scent and his one-hundred-some-odd years of virginity (which would make anybody cranky, I admit). But Jasper, having been a soldier in his human life, and a full-fledged killing machine for the first hundred years or so of his vampire life, shows a lot more willpower and strength of character, having not been raised as a 'vegetarian' and being so new to the Cullen brood. Also let's not forget that Edward was the first Cullen besides Carlisle. He ought to have this restraint thing figured out by now, freesia-scented-blood notwithstanding.
I TOTALLY agree!!! Edward just whines way too much. I like a guy who can just suck it up way better.

I know Jasper doesn't have the same attraction to Bella that Edward does, because he's not her 'soulmate' and all, but he hasn't been practicing the not-eating-humans thing for as long. And what happened in the first book? They put Bella in a car, and then a hotel room, alone with both Alice and Jasper, and nothing happened. (Apart from the James incident, I mean.) We all love Alice, we know she'd probably be able to distract Jasper enough to prevent any accidents. But still! Does that seem phenomenally stupid to anyone else? Unless of course, you consider the fact that Jasper is, well, awesome.

(I've been a bit obsessed with Jasper lately, heh.)

Jasper has it way worse than Edward probably. Edward only has to put up with Bella, Jasper has to put up with well, everybody else. it does seem pretty stupid, but I supposed Edward trusted Alice enough.

^That scenario is the weirdest, surely. I'd use the 'well, Edward must've known how good Jasper is at controlling himself' argument - except there's that first chapter of New Moon to deal with. There's something there that just doesn't click.

i think jake could die. but he would have to stop phasing. even though i'm sure he'll gather enough control to stop phasing, i think that since he has nessie, he'd keep doing it, just to stay young with her...

[QUOTE=MC2456;5218585]The thing about Steph's characters are that they are so...stereotypical. I mean, Rosalie is the cheerleader, Emmet's the jock. Enough said about Bella and Edward. Jaz and Alice are probably the least stereotypical characters.


you guys can't have it both ways! make up your minds! You're complaining about meyerpires because she decided to mess with a very beloved stereotyped creature; but then you say her characters are stereotyped. which one is it? Rose And Emmett i get, but at least Meyer gave us a reason for Rosalie's idiocy. She's not just some brainless bimbo, she has a history. and yes...Jasper and Alice are standout characters
...but seriously. You either like that she changed stereotypes or you see her characters as surface-skimming, run-of-the-muck...i'm not sure which reply i'm supposed to give when people won't chose their attack. attack and feint...

well, when it wasn't his fault when Bella's finger got cut in NM. and I always got the impression he was never in love with Bella the way Edward, Alice, Carlisle and Esme were. He certainly didn't hate her, but he didn't go out of his way for her.




I don't think Jasper was being mean in NM. it was just an instinct...like sharks remember? I don't think Jasper disliked Bella at all, I think he truly liked her, but just struggled in being around a human, who had no problems with close proximity to a bunch of vampires. In Twilight, Jasper tells Bella that she's wrong when they're in Phoenix, and that she is worth the risk they all take for her. I thought that was earnest. Jasper also accepts her as part of the family...

I know! At first when Rosalie was really protective of preggersBella I thought she was turning into a friend....PSYCH! Smeyer totally regressed Rosalie's character to pre-Eclipse, and it really was very disappointing.

haha i never saw Rose turning into a friend. she was just too arrogant, and in it only for the baby. that's all she wanted. she could care less about Bella, but Bella knew she'd understand wanting to save the baby.

you guys can't have it both ways! make up your minds! You're complaining about meyerpires because she decided to mess with a very beloved stereotyped creature; but then you say her characters are stereotyped. which one is it? Rose And Emmett i get, but at least Meyer gave us a reason for Rosalie's idiocy. She's not just some brainless bimbo, she has a history. and yes...Jasper and Alice are standout characters
...but seriously. You either like that she changed stereotypes or you see her characters as surface-skimming, run-of-the-muck...i'm not sure which reply i'm supposed to give when people won't chose their attack. attack and feint...



I think what was meant by stereotypical was the characters personalities, not the fact that their vampireness is. She changed how vampires are, but some of their personalities remain very two dimensional. As stated before, Rose is the cheerleader, Emmett is the jock, Esme is the mother. And while I feel that Jasper is awesome, if we never got is back story he'd be as bad as the rest of them. So while Meyer's vampires are not stereotypical, their personalities still are

^Yeah, that.

Meyers has a lot of unique ideas about the vampire myth, but her characterisations - with a few notable, underdeveloped exceptions - are painfully weak. So what she's done with vampires is a good thing: It's fresh, new and very creative. What she chose to do with the individuals in her story, vampires and humans alike, is not.

Rosalie presents a different problem. She got a decent backstory in Eclipse, which after a lot of reflection seems like the strongest volume in the saga, but with Breaking Dawn she went back to being the shallow pretty one taking up space in the background. If she'd done what I was expecting her to do once Nessie was born - meaning steal the baby and turn into the possessive, evil she-vamp she resembled in the preceding chapters - I would've been much happier. But nope - she turned into a mostly normal aunt who liked to play dress-up with the baby, perfectly happy to let Bella keep the kid. That's what was going through my head the whole time - Rosalie's biggest beef with being a vampire is the fact that she never had a child, and she's always resented Bella. This was the perfect opportunity for Rosalie to claim that inner demon and let it run loose, taking this adorable little creature that Bella produced and providing a real inner conflict for the Cullen brood. But she just let it go, and I found that incredibly frustrating.

So many of the characters are either half-developed or have radical changes of heart for no apparent reason, and that was a prime example of that happening.

EDIT: By the way, I'd classify Alice as the cheerleader in this Label The Cullens game. Because she's, y'know, cheerful.

Yeah, Alice is the cheerleader, but the non snobby kind(well, i've never met one unfortunately...), Rosalie's more of just the popular snobby rich girl. I would've preferred a story about how Rosalie tries to steal Nessie than the Volturi, honestly :lol:. That would've been hilarious :rotfl:

Rosalie presents a different problem. She got a decent backstory in Eclipse, which after a lot of reflection seems like the strongest volume in the saga, but with Breaking Dawn she went back to being the *****y pretty one taking up space in the background. If she'd done what I was expecting her to do once Nessie was born - meaning steal the baby and turn into the possessive, evil she-vamp she resembled in the preceding chapters - I would've been much happier. But nope - she turned into a mostly normal aunt who liked to play dress-up with the baby, perfectly happy to let Bella keep the kid. That's what was going through my head the whole time - Rosalie's biggest beef with being a vampire is the fact that she never had a child, and she's always resented Bella. This was the perfect opportunity for Rosalie to claim that inner demon and let it run loose, taking this adorable little creature that Bella produced and providing a real inner conflict for the Cullen brood. But she just let it go, and I found that incredibly frustrating.



To be honest, I half expected Rosealie to to steal the baby. When Bella woke up after being changed I wouldn't have been surprised if Nessie and Rose were half way across the country. The thing Rose wanted more than anything was a child, and her stealing Nessie would have made more sense for her character than just sitting back and being an aunt.
But having Rose take Nessie would have meant that one of the Cullens was an 'evil' character, which I don't think would have flown.

To be honest, I half expected Rosealie to to steal the baby. When Bella woke up after being changed I wouldn't have been surprised if Nessie and Rose were half way across the country. The thing Rose wanted more than anything was a child, and her stealing Nessie would have made more sense for her character than just sitting back and being an aunt.
But having Rose take Nessie would have meant that one of the Cullens was an 'evil' character, which I don't think would have flown.

what do you mean by flown? As in gone well with fans or gone well with the story? Because personally, i would've loved it :D

what do you mean by flown? As in gone well with fans or gone well with the story? Because personally, i would've loved it :D


While I would have loved it too, I don't think it would have fit the story. The Cullens are supposed to be like angels, at least that is how Bella sees them. So if one defected and hurt her, like stealing Nessie, that wouldn't really fit. Not that there haven't been little contradictions before, but I feel that would have been a major contradiction. Even though taking Nessie would have fit Rose's character more than just sitting back and being an aunt.

maybe I'm over/underestimating Rose's character though

Actually, I think depicting at least one of the Cullens as capable of something really awful would've really added to the story

I agree with that. It sort of would have added a second layer to one of the characters. I understand that it wouldn't have been Carlisle, and for romantic reasons, it couldn't truly be Edward, the point being that he was never a monster. Rosalie's story was captivating, so I can't view her as capable of great evil. Perhaps Jasper, having been conditioned to it, could have been seen to have even more trouble adjusting- or even Emmett, since his character wasn't fleshed out half enough, and it would have added hugely to his romance with Rosalie too, given them something to mull over.

Hmm, that would be interesting if Emmett did something terrible, such as steal Nessie. That would show his love for Rose, and deepen his character at the same time. Would Rose stand by Emmett if he did that? it is hard to say...

Hmm, that would be interesting if Emmett did something terrible, such as steal Nessie. That would show his love for Rose, and deepen his character at the same time. Would Rose stand by Emmett if he did that? it is hard to say...

that's just genius and while it's out of character, we barely know the characters anyways so instead of being contradictory, it deepens character. I would love to read that.

To be honest, I half expected Rosealie to to steal the baby. When Bella woke up after being changed I wouldn't have been surprised if Nessie and Rose were half way across the country. The thing Rose wanted more than anything was a child, and her stealing Nessie would have made more sense for her character than just sitting back and being an aunt.
But having Rose take Nessie would have meant that one of the Cullens was an 'evil' character, which I don't think would have flown.

I don't think Rosalie would've gotten away with it. not with Emmett, who has grown to love Bella; or Jasper or Carlisle or Jake standing by. And Alice would've seen that coming too. Just stating the obvious:p I think Rose would've been the only opportunity for SMeyer to bring in a "darker Cullen" the rest grew to love Bella, just like she did towards them. Nobody else would've harmed her...well...on purpose.

Alice would have seen it coming, but since Rose is her 'sister,' she may have done something more cryptic and mysterious to fix it - like what she did with locating the other half-breeds and putting Bella in touch with Mr. J.

I'd have liked to see a darker Cullen, and Rose would've been it. Sure, Bella loves all of them, but she and Rose rubbed each other the wrong way from day one. Plus, getting through that struggle could have given them an opportunity to really work past that rough patch in their relationship, and ultimately become closer as a result. See, it doesn't have to be an unhappy ending, even with a scenario like that - the struggle to get to that point would've made the happy ending more poignant.

It's out of sync for me to say this, I guess, given my want of more tension throughout the series, but it strikes me that the fight between Bella and Rosalie was simply not deep enough throughout the story for me to fully appreciate it as a fight. I either wanted it to be a long term thing, that there would long exist some tension, or that it would entirely resolve itself in the usually happy go lucky tone of the series as a whole.

That's a bit conflicted, but I felt the Bell-Rose tension wasn't dealt with well enough to suit me at all.

Maybe it's because the motivation behind their relationship is so fuzzy. At first I just had this idea that Rose (being the typical elitist vampire in this particular context) just didn't want Bella hanging around because she was human, and that was dangerous and not a good idea for Edward. Which I understand - that's a cliche, but it's a classic one, and it's easy to follow. After that, when Bella learned more about the Cullens' history and found out Rose was brought in as a potential life-mate for Edward, there was this "I'm not worthy!" jealousy/self-deprecation thing stirred into the mix, if only from Bella's POV, and that made her both afraid of and resentful of Rose. (Tanya filled in that role later on.) And then in Eclipse, when we get Rose's backstory and real reason she doesn't want Bella becoming a vampire - you'll regret missing so much, I wish I could go back, I'm actually jealous of you, etc. - it inverts the preexisting relationship between them. Some tension is still there, but you gain a bit of insight into Rose and the two of them learn to coexist more or less peacefully.

And then there's Breaking Dawn, in which Rose goes of villainess to *poof* in just a handful of pages. As much as I love Jake's POV chapters, it would have been nice to see inside Bella's head for that part, to maybe get some of the conversation between her and Rose and figure out what was going on there.

Except for the very end, there is always some tension between Rose and Bella. It just flip-flops too much, and since Rose was initially painted as one of the mean characters (and Bella has plenty of more interesting friends that are more trustworthy) it's easy to either forget or just not care about Rose. The dynamic between them never quite gets to the 'friend' place. Which is why I think that either the Steal The Baby scenario I described before, or getting some of Bella's conversations with Rose about the baby, would help get them to that place more smoothly and more believably.

I wish that the Rose/Bella tension was further explored in the first 3 books. It would have made Rose's character deeper and it would have been interesting to see how Bella reacted to such negative treatment.

And while it would have been cool and interesting to see Rose go to the dark side in BD, I like what we see of her character in it, it seems very believable. Bella went to Rose when she new she was pregnant because she knew that Rose would be the only one to help her in keeping the baby. Even though Rose helps Bella through the pregnancy for purely selfish reasons, she still helps her, which I think deepens their relationship.

And it would have been nice to have seen that conversation from Bella's POV, it would have added to both of their characters.

Yeah, Meyer is totally adverse to conflict. I could just see that juicy storyline. Nessie is suddenly stolen from the Cullens. Then, there'd be like a WHO DONE IT thing, and there would be red herrings, plot, and so much more spice. Hey, maybe she could write another book too, with the Cullens weeding out the culprit and rescuing Nessie. Much more satisfying then the whole lame Volturi ending, which was probably staged because Meyer wanted her readers to see that she is capable of conflict. (or lack there of. Totally lack there of)

Well she's said several times that she couldn't bear to kill off any of her characters. Maybe she'll get over it one day, but not for this series. I mean, all snooty comments aside, she is a new writer.

My desire for the Nessie-napping might very well stem from my preference for mystery over romance, by the way.

A nessie Kidnapping would be... interesting to read. and Mystery is far better than Romance, only because it gets your adrenaline pumping more...

Twilight is one of my favorite books I must say, Stephanie Meyer is a great author...

I can see where Meyer is coming from when she says she can't kill one of her characters

My desire for the Nessie-napping might very well stem from my preference for mystery over romance, by the way.


ya, i definitely prefer mystery over romance. I like how this plot line we made up completely changes the book, and makes it into something totally different. and in my opinion...better.

I like our preferred stuff way better :D. Meyer may technically do well at romance, I think anyways, but tere has to be more to a book than JUST romance. There has to be some kind of action or suspense or SOMETHING. which meyer does, just not too well IMO

^Exactly. It feels like she kinda got halfway there - introducing the concept of the 'immortal children,' the gruesome pregnancy and birth, bringing the Volturi to Washington, etc. - but changed things so as not to hurt any of her precious characters. I understand that to a certain extent. My characters are like my children - I love them all! But at some point, if the story calls for it, you have to let them go.

I prefer to imagine a future beyond Breaking Dawn in which a proper conflict happens, but with more subtlety and sneakiness to the attack. Y'know, more cloak-and-dagger type stuff, picking off the Cullens one by one instead of going for the whole coven at once. That seems like the only way to get rid of them, IMO - they're pretty strong united, with Alice's future-telling, Edward's mind-reading, Jasper's battle experience/mood-altering, and Bella's shield. If I was an evil vampire, I'd definitely pick them off one by one.

I prefer to imagine a future beyond Breaking Dawn in which a proper conflict happens, but with more subtlety and sneakiness to the attack. Y'know, more cloak-and-dagger type stuff, picking off the Cullens one by one instead of going for the whole coven at once. That seems like the only way to get rid of them, IMO - they're pretty strong united, with Alice's future-telling, Edward's mind-reading, Jasper's battle experience/mood-altering, and Bella's shield. If I was an evil vampire, I'd definitely pick them off one by one.


Who would you go for first?

I think I would go for Alice and take out her future telling, that way the rest of them would be surprised.

I would too, but Meyer is simply not capable of doing that....

The good thing is that she did kill at least one character in the Host., but I do think it was done poorly and I didn't feel like I was about to cry.

I like our preferred stuff way better :D. Meyer may technically do well at romance, I think anyways, but tere has to be more to a book than JUST romance. There has to be some kind of action or suspense or SOMETHING. which meyer does, just not too well IMO

That's what it is. See, Meyer evidently writes a style of fantasy that really keeps people hanging on and engaged- it's the Cinderella story, in a way, and everyone reads on. But the action behind that and the strength of the individual characters can be overlooked on the first read through, only to be seen later when you wish to get more from the book. The thing is that, even in the oddest sense, in Harry Potter you can go back and read and re read and re read, and you will likely always find something that sticks out to you that never did before. I missed that aspect when I re read Meyer's books after the film came out. I missed it hugely.

Meyer does a good job trying to get the reader to keep reading the first time, but ultimately fails to make it something the reader wants to keep reading over and over again.

It's out of sync for me to say this, I guess, given my want of more tension throughout the series, but it strikes me that the fight between Bella and Rosalie was simply not deep enough throughout the story for me to fully appreciate it as a fight. I either wanted it to be a long term thing, that there would long exist some tension, or that it would entirely resolve itself in the usually happy go lucky tone of the series as a whole.

That's a bit conflicted, but I felt the Bell-Rose tension wasn't dealt with well enough to suit me at all.

i agree with you here =) it doesn't seem likely for their tension to develop into anything more...

It's not whether or not she's a new writer. Anyone is capable of writing tension, you don't need to have a writing experience to do that. Even middle-school kids can do it.

^Um.... I have to vehemently disagree with you there. Everyone has strong points and weak points. Once you have more experience, you get better at dealing with whatever those weak points are. For some people it's creating tension. I'm sorry, but saying that 'middle school kids' could do what some experienced writers can't is horribly naive. And not true.

It's not whether or not she's a new writer. Anyone is capable of writing tension, you don't need to have a writing experience to do that. Even middle-school kids can do it.

^Um.... I have to vehemently disagree with you there. Everyone has strong points and weak points. Once you have more experience, you get better at dealing with whatever those weak points are. For some people it's creating tension. I'm sorry, but saying that 'middle school kids' could do what some experienced writers can't is horribly naive. And not true.

I'll have to agree with Caliope there. Not everyone can create tension, and speaking as someone fresh out of middle school and forced to edit other student work from my classmates, and while yes, a short story is different from a real book, some people can be way worse than Meyer. :no: their idea of tension is like:

Charlie had a horse. blah blah about how much he loved it blah blah yadda yadda. But one day, there was a storm! Oh no! Charlie was so worried about his horse and his parents tried to calm him, but he ran out into the barn and his horse was all right and they lived happily ever after. The End. :D

Maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but seriously, not much.

^ ya I agree, it takes practice to create tension and suspense. Although I really don't let Meyer off the hook for this. She has editors and those people should be experienced and should have told her to make it better. Plus, I don't think Meyer just types these stories off and send it to the printers, she probably edits it herself. Upon editing things should get better.

^ ya I agree, it takes practice to create tension and suspense. Although I really don't let Meyer off the hook for this. She has editors and those people should be experienced and should have told her to make it better. Plus, I don't think Meyer just types these stories off and send it to the printers, she probably edits it herself. Upon editing things should get better.

ok...I don't even want to think about how bad the tension was before the editing :lol:

Yeah - I'm not trying to defend her as a writer, experience or not. But as a matter of fact, I think one of Meyer's biggest strengths is creating tension. Her problem is carrying it through to its logical conclusion - or at least to a conclusion that would best serve the preceding chapters, and be satisfying to her readers.

For example: The dream Bella has with the tiny child standing over a body of corpses, shortly after Carlisle tells her the story about 'immortal children,' and then the pregnancy. THAT, my friends, almost scared me properly, the way I'd been hoping to be scared since I picked up book 1. The problem was not in the set-up, but in the aftermath: Nessie is both perfectly healthy and perfectly not-evil. And not only that, she's exceptionally beautiful and intelligent and everyone loves her. So there's this enormous build-up to absolutely nothing - no pay-off to the suspense and - yeah, I'll say it - tension that came beforehand.

I'm not going to bring up the battle scene again, because we've all talked ad nauseum over our feelings on that, but it's the same thing. Lots of build-up, lots of suspense, and then - *poof* - nothing. It's like lighting a firecracker that you think is going to shoot up into the air and send sparks, which then just fizzles out on the ground.

So, to summarize, Meyer is very good at creating tension. Her weakness is not having the chutzpah to let that tension fly in such a way that might harm her characters. She cares more about them than about story structure.

just finished listen to the twilight audio books wanted to wait till i had finished them to comment on the series first of all it is definitely a chick book series but it wasn't all bad except it felt like a lot of parts kept going on and on and on alot of talking some parts made me kind of laugh and there was some good action books 1-3 i liked 4 could have been alot better was excepting a fight and people to die the ending i would have to give a 7 and if anyone has heard the guy that did the audio book didn't you think he was horrible made me laugh how bad he was the woman i thought was good pleasant voice i think that the future movies may be good if the figure out how to make them tried to figure out how they could possibly put all of it together to make them alot of stuff going on but one good thing would be if they cut like half of the talking parts that have no purpose

OK, maybe I was exaggerating on the middle-school kids part. :D

Anyway, for me, there is no real closure after Twilight. There are just too many unanswered questions. What are they going to do the next time the Volturi attacks? Will the Big V dissolve, or burn, or become allies with the Cullens? Who will Nessie marry, Jake or Nahuel.

Honestly, this is what happens when you leave your readers without any answers. Someone should tell her that even if she kills of some of her characters, she could still pull off a feel good scene. (SHE DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO KILL OFF THE BAD GUYS!!! She got too attached to Marcus or what?) Things weren't fine and dandy in HP, a whole lot of people died, but we still managed to have a rather bittersweet parting with Harry and the gang. And it did feel good, for that moment to know that "All was well'. So why couldn't Steph do that?

she has got to at least write two more books answer some unanswered questions leave the series on a better end by killing some of the bad guys at least

she has got to at least write two more books answer some unanswered questions leave the series on a better end by killing some of the bad guys at least

eh, i wish that she had written less, too much for nothing.

And I agree, meyer is decent at creating tension. But it really wasn't anything that sucked me in anyways. Harry Potter and Dresden Files are the only two series i've read where i seriously find it impossible to put down the book. For Twilight, it was more of a slow and easy i'll put it down whenever type of book. And unlike other books like that, i didn't even enjoy savoring it properly. i've read books where i really want to savor it but find it utterly impossible :D. which is partly a good thing because if you're savoring a long book and enjoying it too much to put it down, that leads to bad things, aka zero sleep :D. At least i've never had to face that with Twilight.

In a way, knowing that all that tension builds up to nothing, or at least to not too much, i really didn't feel the tension as much

just finished listen to the twilight audio books wanted to wait till i had finished them to comment on the series first of all it is definitely a chick book series but it wasn't all bad except it felt like a lot of parts kept going on and on and on alot of talking some parts made me kind of laugh and there was some good action books 1-3 i liked 4 could have been alot better was excepting a fight and people to die the ending i would have to give a 7 and if anyone has heard the guy that did the audio book didn't you think he was horrible made me laugh how bad he was the woman i thought was good pleasant voice i think that the future movies may be good if the figure out how to make them tried to figure out how they could possibly put all of it together to make them alot of stuff going on but one good thing would be if they cut like half of the talking parts that have no purpose
I feel like I'd like to reply to this, but the lack of full-stops is making me dizzy.

I feel like I'd like to reply to this, but the lack of full-stops is making me dizzy.

um....yeah....me too

attempting to make some sense of the post, what do you mean by give a 7?

And cutting in half the talking parts is not enough for me, it's more like cutting away 2 thirds of everything....

I have a question. Why does Edward like Bella? there is of course the lesson of 'just because you're plain doesn't mean you're not cool too', but that it pretty weak. When Edward is falling for Bella he knows, she smells good, she can identify mitosis in an onion root, she faints at the sight of blood like any good, frail girl, and she likes to put herself in pain by leaving her mom and moving to Forks. Oh ya, and her 'endearing clumsiness'. To me, these qualities are not that attractive.

So, why does Edward love Bella?

i've asked that same question. And to me, it's not really either attractive or unnattractive, just nothing i really care much about or would think of as something i would choose a girlfriend with. I really don't get why Edward love Bella either. I really do not think Bella is one of a kind...

yeah, they're atrraction to each other made no sense to me. i can see why she'd be a little infatauted at first by his looks, but what about after that? and i guess he's good at everything, but that doesn't make him interesting, it makes him a Gary Stu. and i've seen plenty of clumsy girls throughout my years of PE, and it was never endearing. half of them were clumsy on purpose for attention and the rest were basically ignored.
ok, and the whole he-can't-read-her-mind-because-she's-very-private thing always bothered me. are you seriously saying that in all his almost 100 years a vamp he never ran across anyone that's introverted? I'm way more shy and introverted than Bella's character and am friends with a lot of fellow introverts. Edward really NEVER crossed paths with someone as introverted as Bella? I don't buy it, sorry. She shouldn't be super special just because she has a private mind, because a lot of people have private minds.

sorry about crappy writing didnt exatlcy get an A in writing but lack of sleep doesnt help either lol. one more thing about the series the whole time i was listeing to the audio books i couldnt wait for bella to change to a vamp and when she finnaly did was like oh cant belive i lasted this long

yeah, they're atrraction to each other made no sense to me. i can see why she'd be a little infatauted at first by his looks, but what about after that? and i guess he's good at everything, but that doesn't make him interesting, it makes him a Gary Stu. and i've seen plenty of clumsy girls throughout my years of PE, and it was never endearing. half of them were clumsy on purpose for attention and the rest were basically ignored.
ok, and the whole he-can't-read-her-mind-because-she's-very-private thing always bothered me. are you seriously saying that in all his almost 100 years a vamp he never ran across anyone that's introverted? I'm way more shy and introverted than Bella's character and am friends with a lot of fellow introverts. Edward really NEVER crossed paths with someone as introverted as Bella? I don't buy it, sorry. She shouldn't be super special just because she has a private mind, because a lot of people have private minds.

i've seen tons of clumsy girls, whether on purpose or fake, and I happened to be one of them. Well, I used to be. Anyways, I don't think that love should be based on things as broad as "smart" "good looking" etc. I want to fall in love with someone custom made for me :p. The entire he can't read her mind thing bothers me too. I don't think it's because Bella's private, but I don't believe that only she has the shield. Maybe people like that are rare, but hardly one of a kind. I like to think of myself as one of a kind, but quite honestly, with so many people on the Earth, that would be highly unlikely. And Edward has had TONS of time to search through minds....I can be much more private than Bella as well, so you get the point.

i've seen tons of clumsy girls, whether on purpose or fake, and I happened to be one of them. Well, I used to be. Anyways, I don't think that love should be based on things as broad as "smart" "good looking" etc. I want to fall in love with someone custom made for me :p. The entire he can't read her mind thing bothers me too. I don't think it's because Bella's private, but I don't believe that only she has the shield. Maybe people like that are rare, but hardly one of a kind. I like to think of myself as one of a kind, but quite honestly, with so many people on the Earth, that would be highly unlikely. And Edward has had TONS of time to search through minds....I can be much more private than Bella as well, so you get the point.


Ya I agree that Bella can't be the only one in the whole world who has a shield. It must be nice for him not to have to listen to her thoughts though. But not being able to read someones thoughts does not spell love, at least not in my books.

it would probably make me want to investigate further, of course, but i would never fall in love and i really don't see why they do.

siriussternfan: Just place a period every place you'd pause to take a breath. That'd help. :) And I know what you mean about waiting for Bella to go vamp - good GOD! I mean, it's not like that's a surprise to anyone reading; that's been in the works since the end of Book 1.

Rebel: I don't think her being private has anything to do with her power, but her power is connected to Edward not being able to read her mind. And actually, I can believe that particular part of it - that the 'shield' is unique to Bella, and her alone. Although I do think that Edward ought to have had some 'blocks' to his mind-reading thing in some other context, but maybe not in the same way.

As to the 'why are they in love?' thing - it's simple. They're ~~*Soul Mates*~~. It takes more to make a 'real' relationship work than just finding The One, assuming they exist, but in Meyers world - that's it. You find the person you're supposed to be with for the rest of your life, experience Love At First Sight, and that's it. You're done. No more character building required.

was searching for pics of kristen stewart and came across article of her saying same guy from twilight who played jacob black is confirmed to come back for new moon. so i went and looked for pics of him, dont know if any of you have seen him recently but wow i like the girls but can appericate a good looking guy he has according to him put on about 30 pounds of muscle and almost has an 8 pack. he may have the muscles down but jacob is still suposed to be like 7ft tyler is what like less than 6
sister thaught he was good looking before will have to tell her about him now if she doesnt all ready know

was searching for pics of kristen stewart and came across article of her saying same guy from twilight who played jacob black is confirmed to come back for new moon. so i went and looked for pics of him, dont know if any of you have seen him recently but wow i like the girls but can appericate a good looking guy he has according to him put on about 30 pounds of muscle and almost has an 8 pack. he may have the muscles down but jacob is still suposed to be like 7ft tyler is what like less than 6
sister thaught he was good looking before will have to tell her about him now if she doesnt all ready know

For discussing the upcoming film New Moon, please go to New Moon - The Movie (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=118919). :) This thread is about the novels only.

Rebel, as to your question, we cannot possibly know because neither Bella nor Edward are shown to have proper character traits. Sure, Edward is over-analytical and possessive and Bella is insecure and stubborn but's their love that defines them. As soon as they confess their love for each other, they stop being Bella and Edward and become BellaandEdward.

Yeah, I agree. They have totally lost their personalities, just to be with each other. If that's what falling in love is, I'd rather remain a single for the rest of my life. Luckily, it all happens in Twilight-verse.

I guess I can accept that they love each other because they are "soul mates". While I don't believe in them, it is acceptable that they do in the Twilightverse. But it seems that love at first sight and being a soul mate takes the place of having desirable personality traits.

i really can't accept the soul mate thing, sorry. it's really fine that they're made for each other, but shouldn't we get an inkling to why? All Meyer gives us is that they are made for each other, nothing more. Their relationship is far too simple for me. I would hope that i could do more with my soul mate than to stare at him all day :p

^Well, that's exactly the problem. Meyer presents this rather naive idea once you find your Soul Mate, then all you need to do is what you just said - adore each other all day. I don't understand how so many people can find that kind of thing romantic. But a bajillion adolescent readers and their sexually frustrated mothers disagree, heh.

That's why I really despise her books...In real life, love isn't THAT perfect. I'll just use a non romantic love example. Most parents deeply love and care for their children and want them to be happy and succeed in life and have no harm come across them. However, I'd bet anything that a large portion of those parents will be extremely angry with those children and have had thoughts of beating them or have actually done so. Edward and Bella get angry at each other...I have to give Meyer that, but how many times have they come close to wishing each other harm? Of course, they would regret it soon after, but it's only human impulse to be angry...i really wanted Bella and Edward to have some sort of shouting match in Eclipse when Edward had Bella imprisoned :p

Of course, they would regret it soon after, but it's only human impulse to be angry...i really wanted Bella and Edward to have some sort of shouting match in Eclipse when Edward had Bella imprisoned :p

I know eh? I was totally expecting Bella to lose her mind at Edward when she saw him again, but oh no, how can they be angry at each other for more than 2 seconds? While I can accept that they are soul mates and that is why they love each other, it is hard to accept that because of that they can never get mad at each other, and that they cease having personalities upon meeting each other.

^Well, that's exactly the problem. Meyer presents this rather naive idea once you find your Soul Mate, then all you need to do is what you just said - adore each other all day. I don't understand how so many people can find that kind of thing romantic. But a bajillion adolescent readers and their sexually frustrated mothers disagree, heh.

That last part cracked me up in a major way.

And yeah, it is kinda ridiculous about how they never get mad for more than three seconds. Even after Edward removed her engine and thus proving himself to be ridiculously controlling she just left the window open for him and completely forgave him. I mean, get some pride, woman!

That last part cracked me up in a major way.

And yeah, it is kinda ridiculous about how they never get mad for more than three seconds. Even after Edward removed her engine and thus proving himself to be ridiculously controlling she just left the window open for him and completely forgave him. I mean, get some pride, woman!

:rotfl: EXACTLY my point.

I forgot whether it was Edward or Bella that disliked how the other never got mad at them but they need a nice minimum 10 minute shouting match :D. Or at least a whispered shouting match, that works too. I can kind of understand Edward controlling his temper, after all, he is a super strong vampire that could accidentally crush Bella into smithereens but Bella on the other hand...ugh....get a backbone....seriously...

:rotfl: EXACTLY my point.

I forgot whether it was Edward or Bella that disliked how the other never got mad at them but they need a nice minimum 10 minute shouting match :D. Or at least a whispered shouting match, that works too. I can kind of understand Edward controlling his temper, after all, he is a super strong vampire that could accidentally crush Bella into smithereens but Bella on the other hand...ugh....get a backbone....seriously...


Wait, is backbone a personality trait? I don't think those are allowed...:no:

:rotfl:

No way, it's completely not allowed. We don't want Bella to have thoughts of her own do we? ;)

Wait, women have thoughts of their own? I didn't know that, at least that isn't what Twilight taught me. :yuhup:

Hmm....I wonder what's in my head if it isn't thoughts, probably banana pudding. But Rebel, you're wrong, of course women have thoughts! Only they're about how hot their boyfriend is ;)

^Seriously, that's the kind of subtext I got from the Twilight series. And it clearly worked on some of the more rabid fans.

if this was real life and there was a guy who told me where to go or not to go and had people watching me think it would be time to run away well if it was a girl in my case
was thinking does anyone else think that the twilight series is a lot like the books written by charlaine harris in a lot of ways

Ahem, once more a reminder: Criticism of the book is fine but it needs to be constructive to some extent. And mocking the fans is an absolute no-go!

I wasn't trying to mock fans, but I've read newspaper articles praising the Twilight series that call some of them rabid (and they use it positively), so it's a pretty common way to refer to some (not all!) of them.

was thinking does anyone else think that the twilight series is a lot like the books written by charlaine harris in a lot of ways
No, no, no, it is NOT. No. HELL no. They have exactly three superficial things in common: vampires, a person who can read minds (the female protagonist in Harris's case) and a vampire/human romance. Other than that, they're completely different stories.

Although I'll admit that Bill the Vampire has a lot of the same broody, emo traits as Edward. It's not a new thing; it's been old hat since Louis in Interview With the Vampire. But Bill isn't the hero in the Harris books, not ultimately.

yeah, emo vamps aren't exactly anything new, and emo characters in general are pretty widespread, but I hate how there aren't any more positive vamps or positive factors that Edward enjoys. Edward doesn't like being hot, strong and sparkly, but it's almost amusing to read about how much Lestat loves being himself :p. I don't think I would've liked the Vampire Chronicles so much if it wasn't just so refreshing after Twilight. If Carlisle and Esme weren't so happy together, I would be even more annoyed at the Cullens....look to the bright side of life for once :p

Actually, even though I haven't been in this thread for quite a few days, I have to say that I totally agree. The emo levels of the Twilight saga are a little too high for me. This is perhaps why Carlisle was one of my favourite characters- he was so optimistic, so careful and cautious, but still determined to make the most and the best of what he had, and he was so dedicated that I never doubted him. I think it's also why I liked Jasper, who was arguably quite emo, but given his background I prefer to think that he just got on with it the majority of the time, rather than being miserable consistently. He showed a lot of different emotions.

I can't compare to the Vampire Chronicles, not having read them. :D I've had enough of Vampire books for a while! :lol:!

Actually, even though I haven't been in this thread for quite a few days, I have to say that I totally agree. The emo levels of the Twilight saga are a little too high for me. This is perhaps why Carlisle was one of my favourite characters- he was so optimistic, so careful and cautious, but still determined to make the most and the best of what he had, and he was so dedicated that I never doubted him. I think it's also why I liked Jasper, who was arguably quite emo, but given his background I prefer to think that he just got on with it the majority of the time, rather than being miserable consistently. He showed a lot of different emotions.

I can't compare to the Vampire Chronicles, not having read them. :D I've had enough of Vampire books for a while! :lol:!

Exactly, most of the Cullens had figured out how to just live with themselves and just enjoy and make the best of what they were given and put the whole I wish I could be human" thing in the back of their head. And ducklash, Vampire Chronicles are WAY better than Twilight :p. Jasper was definitely pretty emo, but he was also more diverse than Edward and he had more reason to be that way. He was the newest to their lifestyle and arguably had one of the toughest pasts to overcome, except maybe Carlisle because he had no one to guide him. Jasper is just awesome :p

Yeah, Twilight does have some emo tendencies. rosalie is always upset, bella is always upset, and edward is always being all tortured. even though jacob was pretty angsty, at least it was pretty much the normal teenage angst, aside from the whole werewolf - sorry, shapeshifter - thing. tht's probably why alice occasionally seemed almost too happy, because she was surrounded by people who were always upset and complaining. that's probably why i always liked alice and emmett, because they were never"poor me, i'm a vampire'' all the time.
I also haven't read the Vampire Chronicles, but now I really want to, since the only vampire books I've read are the Twilight ones and this one series that's basically Gossip Girl with the main characters as vampires.

I also haven't read the Vampire Chronicles, but now I really want to, since the only vampire books I've read are the Twilight ones and this one series that's basically Gossip Girl with the main characters as vampires.

:rotfl: Gossip Girl!

Yeah, most of the characters are pretty emo, and I understand why most of them are, except for Edward. What does he have to be emo about? He found Bella, the love of his life. In the first couple books he doesn't want her to become a vamp, but is sad about it because she will die, but man up and live with your decision! You would think that being with Bella everyday would be good enough to make him happy.

Yeah, Twilight does have some emo tendencies. rosalie is always upset, bella is always upset, and edward is always being all tortured. even though jacob was pretty angsty, at least it was pretty much the normal teenage angst, aside from the whole werewolf - sorry, shapeshifter - thing. tht's probably why alice occasionally seemed almost too happy, because she was surrounded by people who were always upset and complaining. that's probably why i always liked alice and emmett, because they were never"poor me, i'm a vampire'' all the time.
I also haven't read the Vampire Chronicles, but now I really want to, since the only vampire books I've read are the Twilight ones and this one series that's basically Gossip Girl with the main characters as vampires.

:lol: nicely put. Not that i've ever read Gossip Girls, I nearly fell asleep after the first paragraph :lol:

And yeah, I loved how Alice and Emmett could just enjoy themselves. If everyone was so pessimistic in this world, we wouldn't need war to kill entire armies anymore :p

^I know! They rest of the Cullens were all so happy Edward finally found Bella and I guarantee he was way more cranky after he met her than before. I mean, the guy became the definition of emo after he and Bella got together. Seriously, he tried to kill himself in NM because he thought she died (after being totally un-thorough about checking that fact)!

really i could watch anythingor read anything with vampires i think there great but a little whiney needs to be like more blade type of vamps

^Um.... I have to vehemently disagree with you there. Everyone has strong points and weak points. Once you have more experience, you get better at dealing with whatever those weak points are. For some people it's creating tension. I'm sorry, but saying that 'middle school kids' could do what some experienced writers can't is horribly naive. And not true.

here here!!!

Yeah - I'm not trying to defend her as a writer, experience or not. But as a matter of fact, I think one of Meyer's biggest strengths is creating tension. Her problem is carrying it through to its logical conclusion - or at least to a conclusion that would best serve the preceding chapters, and be satisfying to her readers.

For example: The dream Bella has with the tiny child standing over a body of corpses, shortly after Carlisle tells her the story about 'immortal children,' and then the pregnancy. THAT, my friends, almost scared me properly, the way I'd been hoping to be scared since I picked up book 1. The problem was not in the set-up, but in the aftermath: Nessie is both perfectly healthy and perfectly not-evil. And not only that, she's exceptionally beautiful and intelligent and everyone loves her. So there's this enormous build-up to absolutely nothing - no pay-off to the suspense and - yeah, I'll say it - tension that came beforehand.

I'm not going to bring up the battle scene again, because we've all talked ad nauseum over our feelings on that, but it's the same thing. Lots of build-up, lots of suspense, and then - *poof* - nothing. It's like lighting a firecracker that you think is going to shoot up into the air and send sparks, which then just fizzles out on the ground.

So, to summarize, Meyer is very good at creating tension. Her weakness is not having the chutzpah to let that tension fly in such a way that might harm her characters. She cares more about them than about story structure.


the dream created a lot of tension. Meyer was brilliant when it came to suspense! And when she did follow through with a *bang* rather than her common *poof* it was great. And i'm sure Caliope will dissagree with part of my statement, but it is hard to keep tension flowing, and harming your characters isn't just hard, but painful! i had to kill one off the other day, and it totally put me in a funk. hahaha so i get where Meyer is coming from in the protecting her characters thing...although it doesn't leave her readers satisfied...obviously seeing as none of you seem to be.


(SHE DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO KILL OFF THE BAD GUYS!!! She got too attached to Marcus or what?)

I think she was too attatched to the Cullens. There's NO way they could've went up against the volturi and not lose somebody important. And i have a feeling she would have had a whole different wave of annoyed fans if we'd lost Jake...

I consider it a mark of a good author to just allow their story to become it's own rather than force it in a certain direction. and really, Twilight was just like itching to have a few casualties....