Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

I think Snape was one of the most selfless characters in the Series. :) He made mistakes when he was young and paid for them for the rest of his life and ultimately with his life itself. I see his selflessness in the way he did not nag to death, Lily, when she told him she did not want him; the way he told Dumbleore he would do anything and held on to his word for the rest of his life and in the way he told Harry his story through his memories, giving him the reason why he was to Harry the way he was IMO.

Killing Dumbledore and throwing away his life, his respect, from the other Professors and the WW alone makes Snape a selfless man in my eyes. I think it was all the more hard for him to kill Dumbledore, because he was a DE who turned to the light and he had to at that time, give away all that he had earned from the time he turned to the Light, by that one action, to save Draco's soul and Dumbledore's torture and to help Harry Potter IMO.
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I think zg describes it best. These words somehow I am unable to forget are from Snape's death V2 in the Stone Forum

9. Do you believe Snape's death was the right way for Jo to bring closure to his self-induced tortured life?

It was a right way. Perhaps the best. To me, the story of Snape's life from the moment he 'returned', and most especially, from the moment he agreed to kill Dumbledore at the start of HBP, is the single most impressive demonstration of self-sacrifice in a series that is littered with it.

Hmm... I would say that the act was selfless, but the man wasn't. Harry would've felt better knowing he had Snape, someone who used to be close to his mother, on his side. *thinks fatherly figure and shudders* Nah... Snappy was smart in keeping it hush. :lol:

The act came from the man. :D I don't think he could say anything to Harry or treat him otherwise. Even with so much harshness, Bellatrix and other DEs suspected him to be a traitor to Voldmeort and on Dumbledore's and Harry's side (Spinner's End) and all of them kept quiet only after Dumbledore was killed by Snape IMO.

And what I find surprising is even with almost no friendliness between them, it is from Snape that Harry learns most about his mother (through Snape's memories). Not Sirius, not Remus, Petunia or anyone else. :)

The act came from the man. :D I don't think he could say anything to Harry or treat him otherwise. Even with so much harshness, Bellatrix and other DEs suspected him to be a traitor to Voldmeort and on Dumbledore's and Harry's side (Spinner's End) and all of them kept quiet only after Dumbledore was killed by Snape IMO.

I believe that Snape's antipathy to Harry was genuine, not faked. :cool: I think that canon makes that pretty plain. :whistle:

I also believe, like you, there was some sort of 'peace' between Snape and Harry at the end.

And what I find surprising is even with almost no friendliness between them, it is from Snape that Harry learns most about his mother (through Snape's memories). Not Sirius, not Remus, Petunia or anyone else. :)

Those pesky plot mechanics again. :p JKR couldn't reveal too much about Lily because of her Big Reveal in the final book. :whistle: (Of course, the deafening silence on Lily for most of the series was a pretty large Snape/Lily clue. :D)

All the same, it's a very odd omission, that none of those people talked to Harry about his mother. :hmm: (It's one reason why I really like that scene between Remus and Harry in the PoA film, because Remus talks about Lily to Harry. :) )

I think Snape's antipathy towards James was genuine. There was hatred, loathing of James; towards Harry I just don't know. I don't think Snape hated Harry; irritated with him at times, even disliked his actions at times, thought him rude and disobedient at times perhaps, but not hate. I think Snape hated James.

IMO it's entirely possible that Snape was low man on the DE totem pole... and THEN the brought the prophecy to Voldemort. That would have raised his stock quite a bit I think. And possible proved, that even tho he wasn't a pure blood that he was still worthy.

Good grief people, I go on shift for 24 hours and I'm behind by like 4 pages. Have mercy!

I think Snape's antipathy towards James was genuine. There was hatred, loathing of James; towards Harry I just don't know. I don't think Snape hated Harry; irritated with him at times, even disliked his actions at times, thought him rude and disobedient at times perhaps, but not hate. I think Snape hated James.

Well, the author did say that he hated Harry ... :whistle:

And I'm not one for saying that the author's intent always jives with a reader's interpretation, I think a reader is at liberty to disagree with the author, actually, if they read something in the story that the author can't quite see (and I think that is perfectly possible!)

OK, I might buy that he didn't hate Harry, although he certainly disliked him.

I do think it was genuine though, and not just an act (as a double agent, it would have made more sense for him to be nice to Dumbledore's Golden Boy!)

I do take issue with JKR's statement that he hated Harry to the end. That doesn't make sense of the redemptive arc she wanted for Snape, really. :hmm:

Ah well, I guess we will go on discussing this ... for as long as it takes. :D

Ah well, I guess we will go on discussing this ... for as long as it takes. :D

*fervently agrees*

Mind you, I still think some of Jo's explanations were conjured right on the spot... If she was that good a plotter, she would've taken Voldy down all on her own!

I do think it was genuine though, and not just an act (as a double agent, it would have made more sense for him to be nice to Dumbledore's Golden Boy!)

Too dangerous. If Harry trusted and liked dear, crusty old Uncle Sev, Lily's best friend...Uncle Sev might be expected to exploit that trust by his "master".

I will grant there might exist a happy medium between this extreme, and what actually took place in the series. :lol:

I do think it was genuine though, and not just an act (as a double agent, it would have made more sense for him to be nice to Dumbledore's Golden Boy!) I'm not so much concerned for Harry being treated nice {I mean look what happened in classes taught by Trelawney, Hagrid, Lockhart, Slughorn} that sorta smacks as favoritism and he got uber amounts of that!

I was much more concerned with Sev's overall treatment of the students of Hogwarts as a whole.
Too dangerous. If Harry trusted and liked dear, crusty old Uncle Sev, Lily's best friend...Uncle Sev might be expected to exploit that trust by his "master".:agree: Both of them!

I will grant there might exist a happy medium between this extreme, and what actually took place in the series. :lol:

Agreed. ;)

I think Snape's antipathy towards James was genuine. There was hatred, loathing of James; towards Harry I just don't know. I don't think Snape hated Harry; irritated with him at times, even disliked his actions at times, thought him rude and disobedient at times perhaps, but not hate. I think Snape hated James.

Well I think the bottom line was that Snape loved to hate both Harry and James. One was the man Lily loved and the other was the representation of that love. I mean let's face it, JKR wrote Snape stealing the love Lily had given to Sirius - he was stealing her platonic love for another and trying to convert that into some kind of romantic deal for himself. That is pathetic, imo. You would think JKR could have at least given him a temporary girlfriend or something. :lol: No man should have to grovel at that level.

For a moment there, you lost me... and then i remembered the letter. *speachless*

You're right; it's beyond humiliating. But I think I liked your original wording better.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to fume at Jo inwardly for a bit. :grumble:

:lol:. Well the language change was actually directed more at what Jo was doing to the man, than at Snape. I didn't feel my original wording made it clear what she had done. She enjoyed writing Snape's character and I can dig it, but you know, like me, he was a male also, and she rather put him through the ringer over a female. Not that they aren't worth it, they can be, but Lily wasn't worth it for Snape. I know people will say that one cannot control their romantic inclinations and all that, but JKR didn't have to write him that way... He was a bit far fetched now and again, I think; I feel that is why explaining Snape can be difficult to impossible at times.

The idea that Snape was trying to convert the letter into something "romantic" lives only inside the heads of some readers. It is nowhere stated.

Severus loved Lily, this I don't doubt. I don't think he suffered under any delusions as to what her feelings had been, however. Taking the letter could equally indicate he still valued what she had one been to him (his best friend, a non-romantic relationship on her part).

But it is true that Rowling wrote him as, at that point, completely and utterly alone. No girlfriend in sight. No friend at all, anymore, except the ones he was deceiving, around whom he'd have to watch himself constantly, and whom he might be called up on to betray if circumstances warranted it. Writing him a girlfriend at that point would be fairly senseless. She'd have to be a Death Eater as well, and thus of no more use to him than any of his other "friends".

To me the letter and photo are close parallels to the shades of Harry's dead from the Resurrection Stone. As Harry would later, Snape had reached a nadir in which he felt he could no longer go on, and found in his memory of Lily, the strength he needed to keep going, after all.

If we accept Rowling's post-DH explanations, this scene occured immediately after Severus fled Hogwarts, having killed Albus. He was thus about to set out to meet Voldemort, and join him and his followers for good - to take the final, fatal step that led to his death.

but you know, like me, he was a male also, and she rather put him through the ringer over a female. Not that they aren't worth it, they can be, but Lily wasn't worth it for Snape.

I think this overlooks a huge part of the story. In the sense in which I think you mean it, she was not worth it for him the moment she shut the door of Gryffindor Tower in his face, and I think he got the message, too. I don't see him as acting from any realistic or unrealistic hopes about any possible future relationship with her from that point onwards.

But it is one thing to realize one has no hope of winning the girl and go on with one's life (which to me, young DE Sev clearly has done), and another to stand by and let her die when he has the means to prevent it, and would bear responsibility for her death, as well. I couldn't say what most men would or would not do under those circumstances, but speaking as a human - acting under those circumstances is totally worth it, and has nothing to do with anyone else.

The idea that Snape was trying to convert the letter into something "romantic" lives only inside the heads of some readers. It is nowhere stated.

Severus loved Lily, this I don't doubt. I don't think he suffered under any delusions as to what her feelings had been, however. Taking the letter could equally indicate he still valued what she had one been to him (his best friend, a non-romantic relationship on her part).

Yeah, but that is what I am saying. Snape took the letter with Lily's love to Sirius - and even if he was thinking of his old friendship, it is still that idea of pathetic transference. Like Snape should swamp the sewers for a mere grain of salt. You know what I mean? She could have had him go to Spinner's End and pull out an old letter Lily had written him while on vacation or whatever. But instead she does this where he has this pathetic idea of transference going on no matter what interpretation one comes up with.

But it is true that Rowling wrote him as, at that point, completely and utterly alone. No girlfriend in sight. No friend at all, anymore, except the ones he was deceiving, around whom he'd have to watch himself constantly, and whom he might be called up on to betray if circumstances warranted it. Writing him a girlfriend at that point would be fairly senseless. She'd have to be a Death Eater as well, and thus of no more use to him than any of his other "friends".

Ah, I meant long before that. At some point during the 15 years before Voldy returned. But JKR's idea was "who would want to date Snape?" So he got nothing. Again lumping him into the category of being pathetic.

To me the letter and photo are close parallels to the shades of Harry's dead from the Resurrection Stone. As Harry would later, Snape had reached a nadir in which he felt he could no longer go on, and found in his memory of Lily, the strength he needed to keep going, after all. If we accept Rowling's post-DH explanations, this scene occured immediately after Severus fled Hogwarts, having killed Albus. He was thus about to set out to meet Voldemort, and join him and his followers for good - to take the final, fatal step that led to his death.

Well I think that may be true, but I was more talking about the means JKR used to show this aspect for Snape. Not just in taking things meant for Sirius and transfering them to himself, but then JKR adds the bit about him ripping the picture and throwing the other half under the dresser. Again, the same idea prevails of his having to snatch for scraps. I just think that she chose a means of showing it that make him look like he was groveling and pathetic. It loses that sense of beauty of the ressurection stone because of the underlying negativity involved - whereas at the stone scene, there was no trying to steal scraps belonging to others or having to toss away portions of those who returned in order for Harry to find courage and love. The love Snape took was not for him, the courage he amassed he had to invent by tossing out those portions that negated that idea. I mean if Snape had done the same thing in the way I suggested above, it would have taken away that entire element, imo. ETA, by your interpretation you may not see groveling and pathetic - but my point is that it is there for the ready interpretation and I think JKR could have easily avoided it.

Ah, I meant long before that. At some point during the 15 years before Voldy returned. But JKR's idea was "who would want to date Snape?" So he got nothing. Again lumping him into the category of being pathetic.

Hey, someone wanted to date (and marry) me! Knowing that, nothing's impossible. *shrugs*

I can't agree with the "pathetic" bit. Granted, it would've been pathetic if he did it in public (which he never does). Under these circumstances... it's merely humiliating. *walks off to sulk some more*

I've never thought of Snape as "pathetic". Many other descriptions, but pathetic isn't one of them.

Well the choice of word wasn't really my focus either. Whatever one wishes to call what Snape did in that scene, the whole stealing Sirius' stuff and love meant for him - and ripping the family photo and throwing half under the dresser bit - however one interprets that - it would have been eliminated if he'd just gone home and taken out a photo and letter belonging to himself. So my point was it was written in such a way that layered the scene with negativity. I mean I doubt anyone is going to condone stealing and destruction of property that doesn't belong to you, imo. So it requires more thought than merely Snape is obtaining courage and love from the items. I don't think any one would argue that an ardent Sirius fan would be thinking "Hey! that belonged to Sirius and he left it for Harry!" any more than an ardent Harry fan might think, "how dare you destroy his stuff! He barely has anything!". These things can be derived from the scene as written and my point is that JKR could have avoided that easily enough, but she didn't, based on her ideas about Snape's characterization, imo.

Personally I'd call him desperate for something to hold on to. But that's just me. *shrug*

Well I think that is an apt synonym. Desperation is relevant to the idea - so desparate that he would break into #12 G, rummage around his enemy's room, leaving it asunder, and take his property, which was Harry's by right. But not just any property - that in which Lily was expressing love for Sirius, in which she was expressing love for her family. It is the outer reaches of desperation - is that a prettier word in that light? I don't see it as such, I see the character being put through the ringer no matter what word you use.

You know what I mean? She could have had him go to Spinner's End and pull out an old letter Lily had written him while on vacation or whatever. But instead she does this where he has this pathetic idea of transference going on no matter what interpretation one comes up with.

Ha! More canon evidence that he "moved on". I bet he got rid of any such trinkets after the little so and so dumped him. :p

Ah, I meant long before that. At some point during the 15 years before Voldy returned. But JKR's idea was "who would want to date Snape?" So he got nothing. Again lumping him into the category of being pathetic.

Sirius got nothing. Moody got nothing. Albus got nothing (at least, for the last century, depending on what you believe about him and Gellert). Minerva, Sprout, Flitwick, Kingsley, Fudge, Sinistra, the bodacious Rosmerta, Sluggie, Charlie Weasley, Neville, George, Scrimgeour, Krum...zippo! Snape is in good company. :lol: Or maybe, the details of their love lives are simply not relevant, and so we don't know about them.

ETA, by your interpretation you may not see groveling and pathetic - but my point is that it is there for the ready interpretation and I think JKR could have easily avoided it.

To me, it dramatized his aloneness in a way that no other scene, except perhaps his duel with Minerva, did. You seem to be saying that being alone and loved by no one is intrinsically pathetic. I don't agree.

Well I think that is an apt synonym. Desperation is relevant to the idea - so desparate that he would break into #12 G, rummage around his enemy's room, leaving it asunder, and take his property, which was Harry's by right.

We don't know that he broke in with the intention to steal anything in particular. He may have gone there for the same reason Harry went there - it was a safe spot to stop in, where he would not run into Death Eaters. It was also the Order HQ - this was probably his last chance to visit it, if he thought there might be items or information of use to him in his mission. We are not given a reason. Perhaps in attempting to accomplish his purpose at 12 GP, he was ambushed by the letter and photo, reminders that "Lily Potter had lived, really lived, that her warm hand had once moved across this parchment, tracing ink into these letters, these words, words about him" (and yes, even that, sadly, applies in an extended sense, since Lily makes clear she is in hiding).

Ha! More canon evidence that he "moved on". I bet he got rid of any such trinkets after the little so and so dumped him. :p

:rotfl: But what a scene to try and get that idea across in. :lol:.

Sirius got nothing. Moody got nothing. Albus got nothing (at least, for the last century, depending on what you believe about him and Gellert). Minerva, Sprout, Flitwick, Kingsley, Fudge, Sinistra, the bodacious Rosmerta, Sluggie, Charlie Weasley, Neville, George, Scrimgeour, Krum...zippo! Snape is in good company. :lol: Or maybe, the details of their love lives are simply not relevant, and so we don't know about them.

Right, but JKR didn't base the non-information on the mens inability to get a woman in the other cases. Her comment 'who would want Snape?' - is immaterial with respect to the answer, but relevant in terms of her writing the character, imo. She wrote him 'unwantable' (in her opinion). So while there may people who do not find him at all pathetically unwantable, there definitely will be those who do because she wrote him that way (meaning some people will take her meaning). I think that puts the character through the ringer if one takes her meaning, don't you?

To me, it dramatized his aloneness in a way that no other scene, except perhaps his duel with Minerva, did. You seem to be saying that being alone and loved by no one is intrinsically pathetic. I don't agree.

Not at all. I am saying that what JKR had Snape do on account of his situation was pathetic in nature. I mean of all people for JKR to pick, she chooses Sirius. :lol:. Come on. Snape has to take love meant for Sirius after all the two of them have been through in the series? This dramatizes a man who is scrambling about for scraps from the table - any table - even that of his enemy and the child he loathes, imo.

I am actually not looking at it from Snape's point of view. But rather JKR's point of view. Why put the guy through the ringer? Why not have him looking at a picture of Lily somewhere else and reading a letter to himself? Why make him look pitiful besides? He is already in tears over that which he never had and never would have - that is enough of a ringer. But to add all of the stealing, destruction and transference - well she hung him out to dry. Why? I disagree that it shows Snape's lonliness in a dramatic way that would be greater if we'd seen him doing the same thing at Spinner's End with his own things. Lonliness is not accentuated by not having a picture of Lily - I daresay he did have one at home. But as you say, he came across the pic and letter here and he greedily wanted those also. I mean that is just layers of negativity on what could have been a sympathetic scene, imo.

Perhaps in attempting to accomplish his purpose at 12 GP, he was ambushed by the letter and photo, reminders that "Lily Potter had lived, really lived, that her warm hand had once moved across this parchment, tracing ink into these letters, these words, words about him" (and yes, even that, sadly, applies in an extended sense, since Lily makes clear she is in hiding).

But that is transfering Harry's experience to Snape and we don't have Snape's POV to determine he was thinking like that at all. He had known her after all, so there was no need for a picture and a letter to stress the fact that she had once lived - that was Harry's story. The words were not about Snape - not in the least, not even in the most far fetched dreamworld could Snape apply Lily telling Sirius about Harry and James to himself, imo - nor would he, imo. And Snape I think agreed with me. He tossed that part of the letter on the floor, only taking the part where Lily gave her love to Sirius.

But I think you have underscored my point. Your interpretation is exactly the type of difficult and complex renderings regarding his character that are often made. I truly believe that is because the character is far fetched and it is very hard to attempt to find some reasonable means of rationalizing his behavior. I mean the above applying an understanding that is completely relative to Harry - to Snape - well to me that says that the scene requires beautifying, even if the interpretation is unreasonable (in light of his supposedly cherishing the words as an embodiment of Lily and as if the words were speaking to him - and then his actually tossing the letter onto the floor. Doesn't quite work out for me.)

Ok, ok, we hear you... JKR wrote Snape to be an unlikeable, cruel, pathetic old bat, and wouldn't want anything to do with him. Fine... *grabs the character and runs for the hills* :p

I think the problem with this particular scene lies in the fact that we're looking at it from different perspectives, emotions-wise. Jo is a girl, and the first thing a girl is going to think after reading the letter scene is: "Aww... How sad", not "How pathetic can you get? Besides, it's breaking and entering!". :lol:

So I can't agree this scene was meant to further debase Snape in reader's eyes - it's there to elicit further sympathy. Because, let's face it, just how desperate should one get in order to go collecting 15-year-old pieces of paper with your love's handwriting on it? :no:

I think Snape was pretty desperate when he went to Grimmauld Place; he went there after killing Dumbledore and was at that time all alone in the WW; he found Lily's letter and did take Lily's love which was not given to him and which at that time belonged to Harry. I don't think it was wrong, taking into account the whole scenario and all that Snape had done and was still about to do and the strength I believe he thought he would get from those few words written by Lily. But he did not just take; he returned too, and he returned more than twice of Lily that he took from Grinmmauld Place (through the memories).
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Another thing I notice about the letter itself was that, while Snape took a small part of Lily's letter, he also took with him the sentence where Lily writes about Dumbledore's friendship with Grindelwald. Had Harry found about that, at the time he found the letter, I wonder if his opinion of Dumbledore would have changed irrevocably, once he read the "Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore". Snape, while tearing the letter, also took the important part of the letter regarding Dumbledore. While I don't know if it was deliberate (it's Snape, it could very well be another thing he did for Harry) or accidental, I do think it was significant.

could have ever been friends with Gellert Grindelwald. I think her mind's going personally.

Lots of love,

Lily

Ok, ok, we hear you... JKR wrote Snape to be an unlikeable, cruel, pathetic old bat, and wouldn't want anything to do with him. Fine... *grabs the character and runs for the hills* :p

I think the problem with this particular scene lies in the fact that we're looking at it from different perspectives, emotions-wise. Jo is a girl, and the first thing a girl is going to think after reading the letter scene is: "Aww... How sad", not "How pathetic can you get? Besides, it's breaking and entering!". :lol:

So I can't agree this scene was meant to further debase Snape in reader's eyes - it's there to elicit further sympathy. Because, let's face it, just how desperate should one get in order to go collecting 15-year-old pieces of paper with your love's handwriting on it? :no:

It could be a gender thing in part, but many females have shared my view over time and also asked "how pathetic can you get?" after reading it. And also dwelled on the criminal aspects. Whereas I would imagine some males could take your view. So I don't know if that is it or not. But did JKR really think her entire audience would see that moment sympathetically? I have to doubt it since she used Sirius' old letter which he'd given to Harry in his will. She had Snape wreck Sirius' room and also he was disregarding of the substantive part of the letter he left behind and the 1/2 photo - thrown (not dropped, or slipped) thrown, onto the floor. I think she added too much negativity for us not to take note of it.

Dear Marcus, I think the negativity surrounding this particular scene is the least of our problems in analyzing Snape's character! :lol:

It was masterfully done, I'll give Jo that - it neither managed to get me to hate Snape, not you to like him. So the battle rages on... ;)

Yup. But I think it is extremely relevant to the analysis of Snape's character. These are all actions he took, personally, in the canon. This provides an excellent identity descriptor relative to his character as I see it. Snape's problem solving to adapt to the situation, speaks volumes about his character, imo.

I agree. :agree:

The trouble is, we each have our different set of values and will (ultimately), even if presented with a definite set of facts, reach a different conclusion regarding Snape's... err... "badness".

If this was to turn into a proper "character analysis" - and we applied psychology to it, we'd run out of ammo pretty soon considering the number of posts per day this thread receives. And yes, we'd probably be able to agree on a fair number of descriptors. But the ultimate... verdict, so to speak, would still differ for each of us.

Concepts of "bad" and "good" are highly subjective.

Which is exactly what makes this discussion so interesting, IMO - we simply have to agree to disagree, all the while giving one another further "food for thought". :)

I agree. :agree:

The trouble is, we each have our different set of values and will (ultimately), even if presented with a definite set of facts, reach a different conclusion regarding Snape's... err... "badness".

If this was to turn into a proper "character analysis" - and we applied psychology to it, we'd run out of ammo pretty soon considering the number of posts per day this thread receives. And yes, we'd probably be able to agree on a fair number of descriptors. But the ultimate... verdict, so to speak, would still differ for each of us.

Concepts of "bad" and "good" are highly subjective.

Which is exactly what makes this discussion so interesting, IMO - we simply have to agree to disagree, all the while giving one another further "food for thought". :)

I agree and I realize bad and good are subjective. But I guess I have trouble with the reasoning. On the one hand, Snape using his power of position and humiliating Neville is 'understandable' based on his past, his trauma and losses, his endurances as a Death Eater, his childhood, etc., and not necessarily wrong because it is, 'instructive' and a good 'life lesson' for Neville. Many people have had professors they claim are like Snape, and they look back on them with fondness and wish to give thanks for the mistreatment. So Snape is vindicated, at least in part. On the other hand, Draco is just a big bully for hexing Neville. His behavior is not understandable, his past, his childhood and upbringing, his losses, his being a child rather than an adult and his resultant character are not enough to make his behavior "not necessarily wrong", but instructive or a good life lesson for Neville. And Neville cannot be expected to look back on that day with fondness toward Draco and give thanks for the mistreatment.

I do not feel that the diametrically opposed reasoning here can be accounted for by the subjective idea of 'badness' a person might have. I feel the reasoning is made on a different basis. What if I were to reason that Neville should look back on Draco hexing and be grateful and thankful; pleased that he was taught an instructive good life lesson. :huh:

Remember that rule we have on Snape vs. Marauders - who was meeeeeeaner? :whistle:


http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m37/eumelkeks/2h67fww.jpg

Well, there goes a perfectly formulated post. :no: Oh, well...

Hmm... I highly doubt you know many people who would "wish to give thanks for the mistreatment", but I'll take your word on it. Even if you did, I really don't see how that vindicates Snape - his behaviour in class is just one of the things we were discussing, and his teaching persona certainly does not constitute his entire character.

Am I missing something here (beside your obvious allusion to my teacher post, which I at present refuse to acknowledge :lol:)?

Sirius is an equally tragic character IMO, only for different reasons. But I might post more on that in another thread... we've had enough mod warnings here as it is, I don't have to go and add off-topic posting to our list of offenses. :lol:

Well, there goes a perfectly formulated post. :no: Oh, well...

Hmm... I highly doubt you know many people who would "wish to give thanks for the mistreatment", but I'll take your word on it. Even if you did, I really don't see how that vindicates Snape - his behaviour in class is just one of the things we were discussing, and his teaching persona certainly does not constitute his entire character.

Well I changed it to Neville and Draco because that wasn't the point. But the view of "badness" in terms of Snape and in terms of others can vary, significantly and I don't see any basis for it.

Am I missing something here (beside your obvious allusion to my teacher post, which I at present refuse to acknowledge :lol:)?

Oh that was not a direct reference at all. You are likely the 20th person to outline a similar scenario. It is oft repeated, but the professor I had that behaved only 1/2 as negatively as Snape is still on my ignore for life list. So I have never experienced such a thing as appreciating a bullying professor for doing so. Hence, I don't really get that reasoning at all. The professors I appreciate were the ones that were considerate - not necessarily kind (although those are the best), just neutral and considerate, giving at worst constructive criticism and at best approval for work well done.

Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?


I wanted to initially change many things about him, starting from the fact he should have lived and soa on and on, but I think at this point, there is not a single thing I would change/improve about Snape. For I feel he would not be the Snape I love to discuss, defend and dissect. :D

If I must change any one thing, I would change/improve his childhood, though. Even at the risk of Snape changing into a person, I would not like to discuss much. :D

Snape and Dumbledore IMO are characters who have had their childhood and the mistakes of their adoloscence shape them into what they became later on in life.

And I feel they are intriguing, complex and special, because of the way they have been portrayed in the Books. :)

To me, the scene in 12GP is someone who is desperate to find a reason to do what needs to be done. That Lily lived and loved, than her son still lives and also loves are Snape's only real reasons to go on at this point in time. He can't even go back to the fake sense of belonging he had at Hogwarts since he was always hiding who he was. Snape had no friends. None. Not even Dumbledore, because in Snape's eyes at least, he was just a means to an end with Dumbledore IMO. Snape could never let his guard down long enough with anyone to make a real friend. The only one he'd ever had, and he knows he messed it up badly, was Lily. I see nothing pathetic in wanting something that proves she had lived. That what he was doing now wasn't in vain. That there was STILL a reason to continue on now that it was possible his soul has been torn. Now that he had killed the closest thing he'd had to a friend since Lily.

The fact that he can use that piece of paper to drag himself up by the bootstraps again, is, IMO, a huge show of inner strength. Strength he probably didn't even know he had.

I didn't realize there were new questions. :tu:

Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could
change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?

Everything, honestly.

What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?
Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

He would have become a hermit potions maker. There is always the chance that he would go for being a dark lord in his own right - that would have been great - but I don't know if he had that much bravery. Yes I do agree with JKR's facts. I could not meet her hopes (she wanted redemption), but I don't think she expected that from everyone.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Well if she had not been targeted he would have remained a DE. If she alone had lived, he would have discovered what hatred greater than his own felt like when it was directed at him and yes, he would have moved on - as far away as possible I think.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

Well I think that it was a really silly motivation, I had hoped for much more. It turned what could have been a dynamic character into a sad sap for me. But you can't please everyone. I always imagined he was on the good side, so in hindsight, nothing changed for me relative to the points raised. His treatment of Sirius may have contained a touch of Jealousy, but nothing compared to the jealousy he felt for James.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Power, prestige in a muggleless and mugglebornless world - with a couple of rare exceptions.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

It actually made it all the worse. I thought the basis for his treatment would be something else altogether, and since to me his motivation was just silly, the whole transference and mistreatment thing with Harry was rather silly too. With Neville, and all of the other kids, my view did not change much; he was just behaving in a bullying and cruel manner. In ways I think he was still evil, according to my definition of it - like his treatment of the kids. It may have been a carry over and if he had not tried to hold up his banner of 'goodsidedness' so much, I could have bought into his character.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

Well I feel Snape was being most honest at that time in going after what he wanted and insolently admitting it to Dumbledore. That was pretty cool. Of course it was nefarious, but at least it was honest and very Slytherin.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

In truth, that is when Snape began behaving in a pathetic manner to me. In just about every area of his life. So I feel that he really allowed the matter to overcome him in a grand literary fashion that was way overblown and unnecessary considering he lost nothing at all except a false hope and a wisp of a dream, imo.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I have discussed his flaws ad nauseum. His strength was the ability to overcome his vulnerability and insecurity (cowardliness) at times and show bravery. He had strength in talent at potions, the dark arts and occlucmency. He also came up with some really good ones (dark humor wise) which in story was a part of his bullying and cruel behavior - but objectively from a reader's standpoint, a good laugh. I also felt that way about the jokes made about him - so a strength in terms of the 'written character' was that he was set up to be the butt of rather funny jokes associated with his hygiene, his unrequited love (which Voldy got off good ones about) and his highly negative character. It is funny how JKR incorporated so much humor in the story that way. Snape loathed Harry utterly.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

No...not a father figure. A road to power at first, and then at last Snape gave up and accepted Dumbledore as his leader so that he could help bring down Voldemort, one of his primary goals, imo.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Snape was Slytherin to the smallest bone in his body. Dumbledore's comment was nuts to me. Snape was nearly as perfect a Slytherin as Voldy or Bella, Draco or Blaise. This was one of his better aspects, but he simply went off keel with his talents in that regard - like so many others.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

He is not a hero in any sense. As I said, his ability to overcome his natural cowardliness and boldly move forward in the face of danger was his mark of bravery. But he could only do that in one aspect of life (spying). Otherwise, his vulnerabilities and insecurities brought out his cowardly behavior, like his treatment of the children, his peers and so on.

The only one he'd ever had, and he knows he messed it up badly, was Lily.

I would respectfully disagree. You know, I think Lucius was really a friend of Snape's. I don't think it was purely a matter of them using one another. And I don't think it is because they looked at all things the same way - obviously. Even when they were both Death Eaters I feel that was true. But I think there was something in Snape that Lucius really liked. And I think the reverse was true also. And I think it went beyond power and prestige for Snape. We simply do not know either of the characters of these men in their "kick back and stretch" modes. But there is more to the world than wealth, death eating, evil and subversive ideas. There are many topics that the two could have enjoyed discussing, as well as viewpoints on things. But I think canon points to what was a friendship - not like Ron and Harry - but much more than Draco and Crabbe.

I didn't realize there were new questions.

You know me, I live to keep this thread alive. :yuhup:

Ahem. *goes back to lurking, which some may call 'modding'*

But JKR's idea was "who would want to date Snape?"
I have to object to this. You've taken that quote completely out of context! If I remember correctly this was a response to an "awkward question" about love and Snape (If I remember the wording was more like " who would want Snape to be in love with them?") and I really think that this was an example of Jo trying to avoid answering the question, because she didn't want to give anything away. And I can't blame her given theat every word she ever said about Snape has been dissected and picked to pieces! :lol: She knew she had to be very careful because her answer would be analysed. As it is I think she did a really good job of avoiding the issue and not giving anything away.

Personally I'd call him desperate for something to hold on to. But that's just me. *shrug*:agree: That's how I see it as well. I cannot begin to think how terrible he must have been feeling at that point.

To me, it dramatized his aloneness in a way that no other scene, except perhaps his duel with Minerva, did. You seem to be saying that being alone and loved by no one is intrinsically pathetic. I don't agree.I'm with you on this Zara. That scene which shows him so totally alone and so utterly distraught indicates that Snape was indeed a man who felt things very keenly, but he hid those feelings so he could finish the job. I have to say that this scene made me respect Snape all the more because it shows the depth of emotion he is carrying and is not able to show or even think about. He has to pull himself together and get on with the job - and decidely unpleasant job it is too. IMHO the man is amazing!


I have to doubt it since she used Sirius' old letter which he'd given to Harry in his will. She had Snape wreck Sirius' room and also he was disregarding of the substantive part of the letter he left behind and the 1/2 photo - thrown (not dropped, or slipped) thrown, onto the floor. I think she added too much negativity for us not to take note of it. Given what Snape was going through at the time I find it very very easy to forgive him these ... er offences. And I think Harry did as well. When you consider what Snape was doing (going deep undercover) I think messing up a room and "stealing" part of a letter and photograph are pretty trivial. I mean does anyone think "Oh that James Bond is a nasty piece of work! He's just stole those papers and now he's taken that car and smashed it up!" Of course we don't because we accept that in the wider scale of things these misdemeanours are not important.

I have to object to this. You've taken that quote completely out of context! If I remember correctly this was a response to an "awkward question" about love and Snape (If I remember the wording was more like " who would want Snape to be in love with them?") and I really think that this was an example of Jo trying to avoid answering the question, because she didn't want to give anything away. And I can't blame her given theat every word she ever said about Snape has been dissected and picked to pieces! :lol: She knew she had to be very careful because her answer would be analysed. As it is I think she did a really good job of avoiding the issue and not giving anything away.

I think you are referring to:

Lydon: Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love?

JKR: Yeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. Erm ... (Lydon, Christopher. J.K. Rowling interview transcript, The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999)

I was referring to the Edinburg Festival Interview:

"Why do you love him? Why do people love Snape? I do not understand this. Again, it's bad boy syndrome, isn't it? It's very depressing."

and

"I hesitate to say that I love him" (audience member shouts, "I do"), JKR: You do? This is a very worrying thing. Are you thinking about Alan Rickman or about Snape? Isn't this life, though? I make this hero, Harry, obviously, and there he is on the screen, the perfect Harry, because Dan is very much as I imagine Harry, but who does every girl under the age of 15 fall in love with? Tom Felton as Draco Malfoy. Girls, stop going for the bad guy. Go for a nice man in the first place. It took me 35 years to learn that, but I am giving you that nugget free, right now, at he beginning of your love lives."


So I just threw it all into a short statement, basically, she doesn't want females falling in love with or dating Snape - so it was highly unlikely she would have that occur in her book series. I don't think she was trying to hide anything in any of these quotes - she was lightly chastising the readership, not even discussing the character per se.

Given what Snape was going through at the time I find it very very easy to forgive him these ... er offences. And I think Harry did as well. When you consider what Snape was doing (going deep undercover) I think messing up a room and "stealing" part of a letter and photograph are pretty trivial. I mean does anyone think "Oh that James Bond is a nasty piece of work! He's just stole those papers and now he's taken that car and smashed it up!" Of course we don't because we accept that in the wider scale of things these misdemeanours are not important.

Well that was my point - JKR wrote it in such a way as there was something to forgive. I question why she didn't just have him pull out a letter/photo and cry over it at Spinner's End - then there is nothing to forgive. He could still ransack his library to show aggression and that he was upset. He could still cry and add sound effects to try and get some sympathy. But the whole negative element would be gone. Apparently she wanted the negative element included.

Ok, here we go... *takes a deep breath*


1. Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?

Based on the way he is supposed to end up? Nothing. He would not end up the way he did if I "improved" him.

2. What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

Probably the same thing he did before, at first: continue with his post as a recluse Potions master. In time, given proper positive recognition, he might have developed better social skills, become an all-around more agreeable person. But I don't see him running off to join the Weird Sisters as a groupie, if that's what you mean...

3. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

What is the author's take on Snape's character, as revealed in interviews? Allow me to quote:
"Lechicaneuronline: Do you think Snape is a hero?

J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and, ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!"

Yes, with this particular interview I wholeheartedly agree.

4. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think the answer is "Yes", to both questions. It might have taken him a while, to move on from Lilly but eventually he would - it was the fact that she was dead, and because of him, that bound him so tightly to her.
As for the "good side" - Lilly was still alive when he said "Anything", and we saw Snape wasn't one to go against his word. Even if he didn't go beyond it, even for a iota...

5. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

I pretty much suspected there was some old debt to repay. I didn't know it would be Lilly, nor did it make any difference except in terms of a sob story *shrugs* He could have easily given his word to Nigellus' portrait - based on what I came to think of him, I'd still expect Snape to keep his word. :relax:

As for his treatment of Sirius: is was two decades of animosity he never got to act on. He couldn't take Siruis physically (that much was obvious from the start), and once he was strong enough magically, Sirius was already in jail.
Childish? Petty? You bet! I never said the man was perfect... I only said there was a reason behind it all, not matter how twisted it may seem to us.

6. Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Quote again:

"Nithya: Lily detested Mulciber, and Avery. If Snape really loved her, why didn't he sacrifice their company for her sake?

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater."

Except I don't believe it was so much "attraction to the dark arts" per se, as "attraction to the means of obtaining some kind of power/renown"


7. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Neville? Neville? Neville was an incompetent student at best, and the only thing I can begrudge Snape is his lack of empathy. Then again, seeing as he rarely found himself on the receiving end of it, I understand - if not approve. Another teacher would be gentler, perhaps, in voicing his displeasure, but voice it (s)he would.

Harry... Well, how would you treat a kid whose face said: "Here's the son you could have had, whose mother died because of you, and who looks like the person you lost her to even before you had her"?

DH, Ch 33: "“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.” The intensity of his gaze made her blush."

I think he was desperate to find something of Lilly in him, but all he got was: "“ – mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent – ”

Not that I believe everything he claims, but... Remember the "You don't have to call me 'Sir'..." incident? :lol:

8. What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

Perfectly logical: He tried the hand he had the better cards in first. When that didn't seem to work, the explored the other options. I already wrote about that. (His standing among the DE at that moment Vs his standing with the OOP at the same time)


9. What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

DH, Ch 33: " “DON’T!” bellowed Snape. “Gone … dead …”

“I wish … I wish I were dead …”

Well, what do you think? :huh:

Guilt-ridden as he was, he never stood a chance. Inferiority complex usually breeds excessive regard for one's personal pride (DH, Ch 33:"At last he said, “Very well. Very well. But never – never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear … especially Potter’s son … I want your word!”), so no friends on the horizon either - what if they turned out to be like the Marauders? And given his former status as a death eater… Thus the Malfoys and all that comes with them.


10. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Strengts: Stoicism and sense of humor (albeit dark) - he recognized the irony of his position
Flaws: Childhood-induced inferiority complex (and the insecurity that comes with it), absolutely appalling social skills


11. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

As a person? No - he doesn't give a damn. As an extension of Lilly's existence? Absolutely.

Jo says "And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably."

12. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

Father figure? Are you kidding me? :lol: Maybe it would've made some sense if he murdered Dumbledore on his own accord, but things being as they are...

No. Definitely no father figure there. I think he probably came to regard Dumbledore as a mentor, since he did care about him to some extent:

Dh, Ch 33: "“If you had only summoned me a little earlier, I might have been able to do more, buy you more time!” said Snape furiously. He looked down at the broken ring and the sword. “Did you think that breaking the ring would break the curse?”

As for Dumbledore, I think that, personally, he considered himself Snape's friend. It's just that Snape never accepted his friendship, thinking it was offered in pity...

13. Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Actually... No, I don't. I think he would have been happier in Ravenclaw. There would be no bloodline pressure, and his physical traits wouldn't have mattered that much either. He certainly was intelligent enough!

14. There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

He lived with his decisions each and every day of his life, fighting despair well enough to play his promised role to the end. That's Brave with a capital B in my book.

Was he a hero? Yes. Google "Byronic"

So I just threw it all into a short statement, basically, she doesn't want females falling in love with or dating Snape - so it was highly unlikely she would have that occur in her book series. I don't think she was trying to hide anything in any of these quotes - she was lightly chastising the readership, not even discussing the character per se. I disagree completely. The "bad boy syndrome" quote was from a long time ago. I think she was actually addressing two issues here. Firstly the issue of teenagers falling for the bad boy and thinking they can change him as shown by the huge number of Draco fans, and I think that was something that genuinely concerned her. Secondly the fact that Snape is written as an unloveable person, but so many of her readers could see past that, which has to be a worry when she is trying to keep[ her readership guessing about Snape's loyalties until the last book. I do not think she is saying "I do not want Snape to date anyone." That would be a really bizarre thing for an author to say! I think she is saying "What do they see in him?" and the answer to that question is that they see in him the qualities that Harry saw in him when he decided to name his second son after him.

I think Jo knows very well why Snape is so popular - because he is a complex character and complex characters are far more interesting than straightforeward ones. In the same way many actors prefer playing "baddies" to "goodies" because they find them more interesting.

Daggerstone: That was an awesone post! *inserts bowing smiley*

I think Jo knows very well why Snape is so popular - because he is a complex character and complex characters are far more interesting than straightforeward ones.

In the interview quoted by Wick, she comes out herself with "I hesitate to say I love him". I would take that to mean there is at least a decent probability that she does, or at any rate harbors some positive feeling. One does not "hesitate to say" random statements that have no truth to them whatsoever. One merely does not even think of them.

Which is confirmed by a post-DH interview in which she states that she does like him. (Not quite love, but perhaps that's why she hesitated. :) )

At any rate, I don't think an imagined contempt, animus, or negative feeling towards Snape on Rowling's part is a credible motive to explain her writing of Snape. She selected the scenes she wrote, and tailored them, to tell Snape's story, and in such a way that Harry could credibly understand it at the end.

I think this last is the reason she set the scene in 12 GP, and made the letter and photo, ones Harry himself would handle. Harry could not break into Spinner's End (as he does not even know it exists), and having a second letter and associated scene would be de trop. Finding that letter and photo is very meaningful to Harrry - and in the end, he sees, and understands through his own personal experience, that it was likewise meaningful to Snape.

Daggerstone: That was an awesone post! *inserts bowing smiley*

Thanks. You should see the extended version... :err:

Zara, great conclusion.

I disagree completely. The "bad boy syndrome" quote was from a long time ago. I think she was actually addressing two issues here. Firstly the issue of teenagers falling for the bad boy and thinking they can change him as shown by the huge number of Draco fans, and I think that was something that genuinely concerned her. Secondly the fact that Snape is written as an unloveable person, but so many of her readers could see past that, which has to be a worry when she is trying to keep[ her readership guessing about Snape's loyalties until the last book. I do not think she is saying "I do not want Snape to date anyone." That would be a really bizarre thing for an author to say! I think she is saying "What do they see in him?" and the answer to that question is that they see in him the qualities that Harry saw in him when he decided to name his second son after him.

I think Jo knows very well why Snape is so popular - because he is a complex character and complex characters are far more interesting than straightforeward ones. In the same way many actors prefer playing "baddies" to "goodies" because they find them more interesting.



"Why do you love him? Why do people love Snape? I do not understand this. Again, it's bad boy syndrome, isn't it? It's very depressing."

and

"I hesitate to say that I love him" (audience member shouts, "I do"), JKR: You do? This is a very worrying thing. Are you thinking about Alan Rickman or about Snape? Isn't this life, though? I make this hero, Harry, obviously, and there he is on the screen, the perfect Harry, because Dan is very much as I imagine Harry, but who does every girl under the age of 15 fall in love with? Tom Felton as Draco Malfoy. Girls, stop going for the bad guy. Go for a nice man in the first place. It took me 35 years to learn that, but I am giving you that nugget free, right now, at he beginning of your love lives."

These two quotes were not written one after the other - one came quite early on - and that is all she said - the whole thing relevant to Snape, including the "bad boy". In the second quote, she explains why these "bad boys" like Draco and Snape are not the type of characters she wished for the readership to become attracted to (in that crush on you sense - of course she wants her readers to love all of her characters in a literary sense).

This has nothing to do with the popularity of the character or how many people find him complex or intriguing and call him a 'favorite character. This is talking about people formulating crushes on them based on the type of character they are - bad boy syndrome.

My point was not that JKR felt people should not deem the character their favorite or dig the character she wrote. Just that she didn't want the young girls to show a propensity to 'fall for' either of these two. They were exactly the same storyline wise in as far as lost souls who in the end moved away from evil. The crushes were forming, however, prior to her moving them away from being thought 'evil' - and neither actually became upstanding citizens in all respects. So she didn't wish to encourage the young to go for these types through her writing.

In the end, she still would not want it because everyone does not behave like Draco or Snape in the story and step backwards, many keep stepping into darkness and to give young girls the hope that all people do that, wouldn't be a good thing.

Hence, in the story, the girl attracted to Draco was a pretty poor character herself (pansy) and nobody was attracted to Snape. And my only point was that she was reiterating her point by doing that. That is why Snape could not have a girlfriend - or even a woman attracted to him who he ignored. Draco couldn't have a decent girlfriend. He ended up married to a nice girl perhaps, but with that marriage came the information that he had changed quite a bit - and all of that info was given outside of the books.

At any rate, I don't think an imagined contempt, animus, or negative feeling towards Snape on Rowling's part is a credible motive to explain her writing of Snape. She selected the scenes she wrote, and tailored them, to tell Snape's story, and in such a way that Harry could credibly understand it at the end.

Well Snape was fashioned on a bullying professor she had and other not so pleasant ones, according to her. I believe she very much wrote with contempt and animus for his bullying children and for his choosing to become a Death Eater - and for his nature shown through his treatment of Harry. I think she wrote with an opposite and more sympathetic feeling when she attempted to accomplish his redemption and change. Same with Draco. JKR herself said that the very worst thing anyone could do was to bully children which she claimed she explored through Snape's character. And in the canon itself it indicates that Snape enjoyed himself immensely while doing many negative acts to the kids. Understanding why one behaves in a negative fashion, does not mean that one feels it was the correct way to behave. In my judgment, Harry would to his dying day find Snape's treatment of the kids and himself - together with his treatment of some adults (i.e., Tonks) - and joining the DEs & delivering a prophecy that would get some family killed, and it turned out to be his parents - all highly contemptable behavior. This was the stuff Harry would have to forgive Snape for and stop thinking about in order for him to go on and honor Snape, imo. So I would have to respectfully disagree with your view.

My point was not that JKR felt people should not deem the character their favorite or dig the character she wrote. Just that she didn't want the young girls to show a propensity to 'fall for' either of these two.

But do teenage girls tend to fall in love with Snape as a character????? :hmm: Draco is a more understandable 'fan crush' for that demographic. My own observation is that the vast majority of female readers who like Snape are grown-up women (and very eloquent, articulate ones at that. ;) )

Hence, in the story, the girl attracted to Draco was a pretty poor character herself (pansy) and nobody was attracted to Snape. And my only point was that she was reiterating her point by doing that. That is why Snape could not have a girlfriend - or even a woman attracted to him who he ignored. Draco couldn't have a decent girlfriend. He ended up married to a nice girl perhaps, but with that marriage came the information that he had changed quite a bit - and all of that info was given outside of the books.

I don't understand this way of looking at characters at all. I mean, if I were an author, I just wouldn't be constructing them to make any kind of heavy-handed moral point. :hmm: I honestly find that exceedingly odd. :) I'm not even saying that's JKR's stance, I'm just saying I personally find it very odd. :) Fiction shouldn't be that dogmatic. Because in RL, 'bad' people are loved by those who love them. RL is not black and white, and the sort of fiction I like to read isn't either, or certainly not in a simplistic sense. So I see no reason whatsoever why Draco, with all his numerous character flaws, could not have had attention in canon from someone who was not a moral vacuum in the way Pansy is. JKR portrays Pansy as despicable and even physically repugnant, and I can't tell you how very over-the-top I find that. :) She's not a plausible love interest for Draco, IMO. Is Pansy the best that he can do, the spoilt, beloved (and gifted) only son of the premier pureblood family? Pull the other one. :)

Same goes for Snape. No reason at all why this embittered, lonely man shouldn't have had a love interest besides the long-dead Lily. Except that this would not have fitted into JKR's overall saga at all. Obviously. :D

In my judgment, Harry would to his dying day find Snape's treatment of the kids and himself - together with his treatment of some adults (i.e., Tonks) - and joining the DEs & delivering a prophecy that would get some family killed, and it turned out to be his parents - all highly contemptable behavior. This was the stuff Harry would have to forgive Snape for and stop thinking about in order for him to go on and honor Snape, imo.

I don't agree that Harry would stop thinking about it in order to forgive Snape. Harry is not a stupid man, neither is he devoid of moral profundity. My interpretation of Harry is that he took all Snape's past sins into account, and still forgave him.

:)

This has nothing to do with the popularity of the character or how many people find him complex or intriguing and call him a 'favorite character. This is talking about people formulating crushes on them based on the type of character they are - bad boy syndrome.

My point was not that JKR felt people should not deem the character their favorite or dig the character she wrote. Just that she didn't want the young girls to show a propensity to 'fall for' either of these two. They were exactly the same storyline wise in as far as lost souls who in the end moved away from evil. The crushes were forming, however, prior to her moving them away from being thought 'evil' - and neither actually became upstanding citizens in all respects. So she didn't wish to encourage the young to go for these types through her writing.

In the end, she still would not want it because everyone does not behave like Draco or Snape in the story and step backwards, many keep stepping into darkness and to give young girls the hope that all people do that, wouldn't be a good thing.

Um... this has everything to do with the popularity of Draco and Severus as characters! It has to - because well, they aren't real people - hence people can't actually have a relationship with them. However Jo was using them and their popularity to warn teenage girls of a particular "syndrome" (to use her phrase) where women fall in love with bad boys (or men) expecting to be able to change them, when the reality is that most of the time you can't and it all ends in tears.

Well Snape was fashioned on a bullying professor she had and other not so pleasant ones, according to her. :no: Actually Jo said she only based one character on a real person and that was Lockhart. The bullying teacher part of Snape's character was no doubt influenced by her experiences with her own unpleasant teacher, but interestingly there is no retribution for Snape's bullying as a teacher, yet according to Jo he was still redeemed. Given also her replies to questions asking why Dumbledore didn't stop Snape from bullying the children (That perhaps he saw it as a learning experience in itself) would imply that she did not actually think it was that big a deal given everything else that was going in his life, and that is why Harry was not only able to forgive Snape for his mistreatment but nmae a son after him. I very much doubt that Jo would contemplate naming any of her children after the aforementioned bullying teacher that she had experience of.


ETA:

Hence, in the story, the girl attracted to Draco was a pretty poor character herself (pansy) and nobody was attracted to SnapeI have to raise a very strong objection to this as it implies that a girlfriend or love interest is a reward for good behaviour!! :wow: :no:

But do teenage girls tend to fall in love with Snape as a character????? :hmm: Draco is a more understandable 'fan crush' for that demographic. My own observation is that the vast majority of female readers who like Snape are grown-up women (and very eloquent, articulate ones at that. ;) )

Do you mean those Snape's wives that Ignisia was talking about? I wasn't really thinking about them...

But most of the older women who "like Snape" aren't forming character crushes like Snape's wives I don't think. They just like the character as written, right?

I don't understand this way of looking at characters at all. I mean, if I were an author, I just wouldn't be constructing them to make any kind of heavy-handed moral point. :hmm: I honestly find that exceedingly odd. :) I'm not even saying that's JKR's stance, I'm just saying I personally find it very odd. :) Fiction shouldn't be that dogmatic. Because in RL, 'bad' people are loved by those who love them. RL is not black and white, and the sort of fiction I like to read isn't either, or certainly not in a simplistic sense. So I see no reason whatsoever why Draco, with all his numerous character flaws, could not have had attention in canon from someone who was not a moral vacuum in the way Pansy is. JKR portrays Pansy as despicable and even physically repugnant, and I can't tell you how very over-the-top I find that. :) She's not a plausible love interest for Draco, IMO. Is Pansy the best that he can do, the spoilt, beloved (and gifted) only son of the premier pureblood family? Pull the other one. :)

:lol:. Well he maybe could in real life, but not by JKR's pen. She simply did not want to push that ideology out there I guess - as Cathy indicated.

Same goes for Snape. No reason at all why this embittered, lonely man shouldn't have had a love interest besides the long-dead Lily. Except that this would not have fitted into JKR's overall saga at all. Obviously. :D

Yeah, well as Cathy said, it is merely that she didn't wish to push an idea out there that could have negative connotations for kids.

I don't agree that Harry would stop thinking about it in order to forgive Snape. Harry is not a stupid man, neither is he devoid of moral profundity. My interpretation of Harry is that he took all Snape's past sins into account, and still forgave him. :)

I think he took it into account too - that is the stuff he forgave him for. But I highly doubt he sits around dwelling on Snape mistreating him and the kids, or deilvering the prophecy - just so he could forgive Snape over and over every day. He forgave him and moved on, imo.

Do you mean those Snape's wives that Ignisia was talking about? I wasn't really thinking about them...

Nor was I. :) (For a good reason too. :lol: Nuttier side of fandom! :err: )

But most of the older women who "like Snape" aren't forming character crushes like Snape's wives I don't think. They just like the character as written, right?

Yes, that's correct, IMO. :)

:lol:. Well he maybe could in real life, but not by JKR's pen. She simply did not want to push that ideology out there I guess - as Cathy indicated.

And yet the hero's father and best friend are allowed by their author to behave badly. And the fans of those characters defend them hotly on the subject. :whistle:

Whatever the ideology is, I'm not seeing it. :D

If, of course, JKR is indeed pushing any kind of ideology ... which, IMO, a writer of fiction is better off not doing. Fiction shouldn't preach, IMO.

Yeah, well as Cathy said, it is merely that she didn't wish to push an idea out there that could have negative connotations for kids.

This sort of says to me that only the 'good' guys deserve wives and girlfriends, and the 'bad' or 'grey' guys don't. :hmm: I just find that downright puzzling.

I think he took it into account too - that is the stuff he forgave him for. But I highly doubt he sits around dwelling on Snape mistreating him and the kids, or deilvering the prophecy - just so he could forgive Snape over and over every day. He forgave him and moved on, imo.

I agree.

Um... this has everything to do with the popularity of Draco and Severus as characters! It has to - because well, they aren't real people - hence people can't actually have a relationship with them. However Jo was using them and their popularity to warn teenage girls of a particular "syndrome" (to use her phrase) where women fall in love with bad boys (or men) expecting to be able to change them, when the reality is that most of the time you can't and it all ends in tears.

Agreed. That is what I was referring to.

:no: Actually Jo said she only based one character on a real person and that was Lockhart. The bullying teacher part of Snape's character was no doubt influenced by her experiences with her own unpleasant teacher, but interestingly there is no retribution for Snape's bullying as a teacher, yet according to Jo he was still redeemed. Given also her replies to questions asking why Dumbledore didn't stop Snape from bullying the children (That perhaps he saw it as a learning experience in itself) would imply that she did not actually think it was that big a deal given everything else that was going in his life, and that is why Harry was not only able to forgive Snape for his mistreatment but nmae a son after him. I very much doubt that Jo would contemplate naming any of her children after the aforementioned bullying teacher that she had experience of.

ETA: I have to raise a very strong objection to this as it implies that a girlfriend or love interest is a reward for good behaviour!! :wow: :no:

That is not what I said - I said a "good" girlfriend or a healthy and good love interest is the reward for good behavior in the story. Otherwise you get Pansy or nothing (metaphorically).

I agree that there was no retribution for Snape's teaching behavior from JKR. But she did say that type of behavior was the worst thing a person could do. So I do not feel she condoned it. When you say "not that big a deal" are you speaking in terms of evil? I don't believe she thought it evil - as in Voldemort evil. But she did recognize it as terrible behavior according to her statement. And she had Harry forgive him before naming his son - which means there was something to forgive. In my view, it was his act that ended in his parents death, and his treatment of him, the kids and others he loved and knew.

I do feel Snape's behavior toward the kids, including Harry, was evil. That is part of the reason why Snape remains unredeemed for me. I do realize my opinion does not jive with redemption. But I don't feel that JKR believed all of her readers would react like Harry, so she accounted for my opinion. She said Rita would write an article: Snape, scoundral or saint? when asked about people's feelings in the wake of finding out the whole truth. I felt that indicated that JKR realized some of us would not be so keen on the character for the reasons I have given.

Nor was I. :) (For a good reason too. :lol: Nuttier side of fandom! :err: ) Yes, that's correct, IMO. :)

Good. :lol:.

And yet the hero's father and best friend are allowed by their author to behave badly. And the fans of those characters defend them hotly on the subject. :whistle: Whatever the ideology is, I'm not seeing it. :D

Same for them. Only after the head shrink did Harry's dad start dating the good love interest that was meant for him. Sirius was an anomoly because he wasn't interested in having one girl, so he doesn't really fit the conversation.

If, of course, JKR is indeed pushing any kind of ideology ... which, IMO, a writer of fiction is better off not doing. Fiction shouldn't preach, IMO.

I find all stories preachy, not just Harry Potter. :lol:.

This sort of says to me that only the 'good' guys deserve wives and girlfriends, and the 'bad' or 'grey' guys don't. :hmm: I just find that downright puzzling.

No...just "good" wives and girlfriends of the soul mate type. That is the reward for being good. And visa versa; Trelawny like Snape was also a loner.
Considering how she penned the story, would you really like to see the type of love interest she might have come up with for Snape?

I do feel Snape's behavior toward the kids, including Harry, was evil.

Ah. I would not say it was evil. Bad and horrible, yes. Evil, no. Evil is a very strong word. I reserve that for Voldemort's torture of Harry in the graveyard, or Voldemort and his DEs killing people.

She said Rita would write an article: Snape, scoundral or saint? when asked about people's feelings in the wake of finding out the whole truth. I felt that indicated that JKR realized some of us would not be so keen on the character for the reasons I have given.

But many of us who like Snape fully realise that a character like Rita would write an article like that. :lol: Not only does that point realistically to the way Snape would be seen after his death -- not everyone would believe Harry's version of events, even though Harry's word does carry a lot of weight -- but it also says a lot about Rita. ;)

I find all stories preachy, not just Harry Potter. :lol:.

OK. :)

No...just "good" wives and girlfriends of the soul mate type. That is the reward for being good.

Then how does that explain Lucius and Narcissa? :) Two people with a terrible worldview who loved each other, and their son, deeply.

And visa versa; Trelawny like Snape was also a loner.

:hmm:

Considering how she penned the story, would you really like to see the type of love interest she might have come up with for Snape?

What I object to here, in the nicest possible way of course :), is the inference that Snape doesn't 'deserve' a love interest.

'Good' people don't always find their soulmate either.

I would be disappointed if the series served up such a simplistic solution. Be good and you find your soulmate. Sorry, doesn't always happen.

Ah. I would not say it was evil. Bad and horrible, yes. Evil, no. Evil is a very strong word. I reserve that for Voldemort's torture of Harry in the graveyard, or Voldemort and his DEs killing people.

Yes, I know I am in the minority on that opinion, but it is just how I feel.

But many of us who like Snape fully realise that a character like Rita would write an article like that. :lol: Not only does that point realistically to the way Snape would be seen after his death -- not everyone would believe Harry's version of events, even though Harry's word does carry a lot of weight -- but it also says a lot about Rita. ;)

Well yeah, Rita is always the provocative one. But the point is not who wrote the article here because both choices are offered: Saint and Scoundral. So she is not calling Snape a scoundral, merely posing the question - so it is not a matter of truth or lies, accusation or praise, but merely two viewpoints. This is very different than her writing a bunch of negative lies about Harry with no opposing view thrown in. This expresses the idea that one can be of one of two minds on the subject of Snape, imo.

Then how does that explain Lucius and Narcissa? :) Two people with a terrible worldview who loved each other, and their son, deeply.

Which one of them was the upstanding citizen? I would say neither. Hence, they got each other. I don't think she was saying that evil or bad people cannot love - on the contrary, they clearly can (except Voldy). But rather, Lucius couldn't win himself a woman like Andromeda, who was presumably kind-hearted and loving - taking in strangers and such. Instead he gets Narcissa. She was never shown to be an exactly nice person. She demanded vows to ensure Dumbledore died - was rather unpleasant to Harry and Hermione in the shop and at Malfoy Manor she joined the others in the attempt to kidnap and persecute the youngsters. That is the type Lucius got and visa versa - Narcissa got Lucius to love. Perhaps the soulmates statement was off - maybe these two were, but not "good and healthy" soulmates.

What I object to here, in the nicest possible way of course :), is the inference that Snape doesn't 'deserve' a love interest.

That is not what I think she meant. One doesn't "deserve" or not "deserve" love. The love would be available just as it was for Lucius. It is the type of person that the dark and grey characters get that is the focus here. Bella got a death eater too; Molly got a healthy good soul mate. JKR couldn't have made the point any clearer, imo. Snape never got anyone, neither did Trelawny or McGonagall or others - but the type of partners or people attracted to these people, if we based it on what occurred in the story, would vary depending on the character themselves. If they were a bullying meany with an evil slant like Draco, they got Pansy. Later he changed and it appears he moved up in terms of the mate he attracted. The real world does not work that way, I agree - but it worked that way in HP.

I would be disappointed if the series served up such a simplistic solution. Be good and you find your soulmate. Sorry, doesn't always happen.

I think the idea was be good and you can. But yeah, she did make it turn out very fairy tale in that way. All of the fairy tale characters get the same treatment - Cinderella and Snow White with their princes. They were great girls, why didn't they end up with dark or grey characters for mates? Because that is not how the fables go. The step-sisters, very grey characters, got no one. HP it was the same. Snape was a grey character and hence, falls into the category of those who won't have a good and healthy love interest. As it was, he, like the step-sisters, got no one.

That is not what I said - I said a "good" girlfriend or a healthy and good love interest is the reward for good behavior in the story. Otherwise you get Pansy or nothing (metaphorically).


No...just "good" wives and girlfriends of the soul mate type. That is the reward for being good. And visa versa; Trelawny like Snape was also a loner.

I am sorry but I must disagree most emphatically! I think that Jo would be appalled at this conclusion being drawn. Women are not prizes to be won! (Nor are men!) Nor are they rewards for anything! And I certainly do not think that Jo would regard them as such or would write them as such, especially given that for much of the time that she was writing Harry Potter she was a single parent!

What I object to here, in the nicest possible way of course , is the inference that Snape doesn't 'deserve' a love interest.

'Good' people don't always find their soulmate either.

I would be disappointed if the series served up such a simplistic solution. Be good and you find your soulmate. Sorry, doesn't always happen.

:agree: Exactly!! :tu:

It is a very old fashioned and totally unfair view that people who are single after a certain age must have something "wrong" with them.


Which one of them was the upstanding citizen? I would say neither. Hence, they got each other. I don't think she was saying that evil or bad people cannot love - on the contrary, they clearly can (except Voldy). But rather, Lucius couldn't win himself a woman like Andromeda, who was presumably kind-hearted and loving - taking in strangers and such. Instead he gets Narcissa. She was never shown to be an exactly nice person. She demanded vows to ensure Dumbledore died - was rather unpleasant to Harry and Hermione in the shop and at Malfoy Manor she joined the others in the attempt to kidnap and persecute the youngsters. That is the type Lucius got and visa versa - Narcissa got Lucius to love. Perhaps the soulmates statement was off - maybe these two were, but not "good and healthy" soulmates.
Perhaps this is because people generally (though not exclusively) fall in love with people who have similar values to them. And I repeat women are not prizes to be won. All people are a mixture of good and bad. I do not think that Jo morally judged her characters and then allocated them partners accordingly. :scared:

I am sorry but I must disagree most emphatically! I think that Jo would be appalled at this conclusion being drawn. Women are not prizes to be won! (Nor are men!) Nor are they rewards for anything! And I certainly do not think that Jo would regard them as such or would write them as such, especially given that for much of the time that she was writing Harry Potter she was a single parent!

I agree, I didn't mean it in terms of a reward like someone gets for recovering the loot from a bank robbery. :lol:. I was using it in terms of who Jo chose to mate up. I have always disagreed with the idea that Ginny was Harry's reward, for example. But I think Harry got a 'good girl' like Ginny because he was a good guy and visa versa.

Perhaps this is because people generally (though not exclusively) fall in love with people who have similar values to them. And I repeat women are not prizes to be won. All people are a mixture of good and bad. I do not think that Jo morally judged her characters and then allocated them partners accordingly. :scared:

Agree again mostly. I do believe she set people together with similar values - but I also feel she took it to the extreme. She did not have any goodsiders that were lamenting a husband or boyfriend who was on the bad side. Friends, family, brothers, sisters, sure, but never love interests. Whereas in real life, as you mentioned above, we see that happen from time to time. So I do think she judged her characters by their values and morals and then mated them accordingly.

In the case of Snape, I don't think his having a love interest would work in terms of the storyline. I feel that there could have been someone in the background who was attracted to him - but Jo didn't want that either. I don't know why she didn't want it for certain, but I do feel she didn't wish to encourage young girls to go for the bad boys because she said so and so she did not set up her story in a way that would allow for that. That could have been part of the reason. It actually would have added to the idea of his only having eyes for Lily, so in terms of the storyline, it wouldn't have really hurt, imo. She could have even had Lily have been his girlfriend instead of just a friend - but I think it would have encouraged that same bad boy syndrome in her eyes.

My own observation is that the vast majority of female readers who like Snape are grown-up women (and very eloquent, articulate ones at that. ;) )

:blush: :lol:

I'm not even saying that's JKR's stance, I'm just saying I personally find it very odd. :) Fiction shouldn't be that dogmatic. Because in RL, 'bad' people are loved by those who love them. RL is not black and white, and the sort of fiction I like to read isn't either, or certainly not in a simplistic sense.

And neither is the Potterverse. We are shown, for example, the (powerful, meaningful) love of Narcissa for Lucius and her son, both Death Eaters.Or that of Regulus for the parents whose teachings on purity of blood inspired him to become a Death Eater. I'd say it is even hinted that, in her own (somewhat scary) way, Bella loved Voldemort. Bad consequences come from bad choices in the Potterverse, (Snape's DE period being a prime example of this) but not to this degree, merely to a realistic degree where such bad consequences flow logically from the bad actions.

I have to raise a very strong objection to this as it implies that a girlfriend or love interest is a reward for good behaviour!! :wow: :no:

Which is clearly not the case in the Potterverse, anyway. The beautiful, well-born, Pureblood, loyal Narcissa Black Malfoy would then have to be considered Lucius's reward for good behavior. :lol:

Which is clearly not the case in the Potterverse, anyway. The beautiful, well-born, Pureblood, loyal Narcissa Black Malfoy would then have to be considered Lucius's reward for good behavior. :lol:

I think she was his mate because they had similar terrible values - not a reward, but a match of the type JKR was prone to make. Neither was a catch in terms of being an upstanding citizen.

This brings up another topic in a random sort of way. Recall when Snape was doing the counterspell for Sectumsempra in the bathroom? He was doing some kind of chant song like countercurse. I never thought about these characters actually doing things like singing. Do you think Snape could sing? This scene is perhaps a clue that he can. That made me wonder if Snape might have enjoyed other past times, but simply not participated - like dancing, playing chess, or perhaps playing an instrument, etc. We don't really hear of anyone doing much of this - but you have to imagine they did. Perhaps singing was a talent of Snape's. Perhaps the one he allowed himself to participate in because he could use it in this other way. It would add an interesting twist to his character actually.

Do you think Snape could sing? This scene is perhaps a clue that he can. That made me wonder if Snape might have enjoyed other past times, but simply not participated - like dancing, playing chess, or perhaps playing an instrument, etc. We don't really hear of anyone doing much of this - but you have to imagine they did.

I can't really imagine Snape dancing. :D Or, at least, it's a stretch. ;) (Although I can imagine him as a head-banger during his student days. :lol:)

I certainly like to imagine his other pursuits. We know he had loads of books. We know he was an intellectual ... you can tell that just from the way he speaks.

Perhaps singing was a talent of Snape's. Perhaps the one he allowed himself to participate in because he could use it in this other way. It would add an interesting twist to his character actually.

Definitely. :agree:

That scene has always intrigued me too, Wick. I really like how JKR has Snape chant or sing the countercurse. It makes him very ... intriguing.

The secret life of Snape ... :whistle: :D :)

Well I didn't have that reaction, :lol:. But I think it could help explain his turn to the good side in a more comprehensive way. All we know is that he read, talked to Dumbledore and had the example of the other professors (most anyway). But sometimes other pursuits, like singing or playing an instrument can give your mind a break - like reading - but more creative and can help in times when one's perspective is changing on major issues.

Although I can imagine him as a head-banger during his student days.So can I! I can just imagine him in a mosh pit :lol:

And I can certainly imagine him with a nice baritone voice.

Recall when Snape was doing the counterspell for Sectumsempra in the bathroom? He was doing some kind of chant song like countercurse.I always imagined that to sound like Taize or plainsong chant.

I see we've moved to new, pinkier fields... :lol:

I personally think the "who'd want Snape in love with him?" quote referred to Snape's way of showing affection (which was a bit too overbearing, for all we've seen - "Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, “Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to – I won’t let you – ”), rather than his capacity of feeling the emotion.

Let's not forget: Harry doesn't really get much "romance time" either. It's there, but not shown as overly important (until the last book).

The thing I find most disturbing, when it comes to romance in Potterverse, is that all troubled characters have this "ban on love" imposed on them - not just Snape - probably because it's not a good idea to date a person with emotional baggage.

Was that the idea? :hmm: For teenagers, probably. HP is, at best, YA literature. And, if I remember correctly, I had a hard time as a teenager dealing with my own emotional baggage - let alone someone else's!

On the other hand... The idea of Ginny/Andromeda/Lilly "a good girl" or "a good soulmate" Vs Narcissa as a "not a good catch" I find absolutely appalling - they all did quite well for their respective partners, thank you very much; what right do I (or anyone else) have to label individuals (let's not argue the fact that all the characters were there to represent certain archetypes) as good or bad catches in general? :huh:

Daggerstone, you raise interesting questions but I'm afraid that they will lead us off topic in this thread: Severus Snape: Character Analysis. :)

*nods* Fair enough. Let me rephrase to conform to the subject:

"I don't think Jo found Snape unloveable. I think she merely thought his brand of love not particularly healthy for young girls to subject themselves to (or wish of the same) - Snape was shown as very demanding on emotional/romantic plane at one point, and obsessive at another.

However, I don't think this particular trait of his character has anything to do with Snape being labeled "good" or "bad" on the whole as it would constitute discrimination"

Better? ;)

I don't understand this way of looking at characters at all. I mean, if I were an author, I just wouldn't be constructing them to make any kind of heavy-handed moral point. :hmm: I honestly find that exceedingly odd. :) I'm not even saying that's JKR's stance, I'm just saying I personally find it very odd. :) Fiction shouldn't be that dogmatic. Because in RL, 'bad' people are loved by those who love them. RL is not black and white, and the sort of fiction I like to read isn't either, or certainly not in a simplistic sense. So I see no reason whatsoever why Draco, with all his numerous character flaws, could not have had attention in canon from someone who was not a moral vacuum in the way Pansy is. JKR portrays Pansy as despicable and even physically repugnant, and I can't tell you how very over-the-top I find that. :) She's not a plausible love interest for Draco, IMO. Is Pansy the best that he can do, the spoilt, beloved (and gifted) only son of the premier pureblood family? Pull the other one. :)

Same goes for Snape. No reason at all why this embittered, lonely man shouldn't have had a love interest besides the long-dead Lily. Except that this would not have fitted into JKR's overall saga at all. Obviously.

This sort of says to me that only the 'good' guys deserve wives and girlfriends, and the 'bad' or 'grey' guys don't. :hmm: I just find that downright puzzling.

A couple of excellent posts Pearl_Took! :)

JKR's statement is indeed puzzling if she meant that "those who made mistakes in the past", "odd" and "unlikeable by the majority" people somehow don't deserve to find love, by "Who'd want to date Snape?".

For how does she define good people and what is the line she draws for someone to find love? It seems so odd to me. :lol:

It look like it is enough that people in Potterverse did not join Voldmeort to ensure they are good. That's so 2 dimensional and I respectfully disagree with JKR. I think every person has the right to seek happiness and I also think there are people who care for others for themselves, and not for what they look like, or if they have amazing social skills or if they have a clean past.

Heck, Voldemort had someone who adored him, why can't Snape or Dumbledore?

"I don't think Jo found Snape unloveable. I think she merely thought his brand of love not particularly healthy for young girls to subject themselves to (or wish of the same) - Snape was shown as very demanding on emotional/romantic plane at one point, and obsessive at another.

However, I don't think this particular trait of his character has anything to do with Snape being labeled "good" or "bad" on the whole as it would constitute discrimination"

This is an excellent post! :tu:

JKR's statement is indeed puzzling if she meant that "those who made mistakes in the past", "odd" and "unlikeable by the majority" people somehow don't deserve to find love, by "Who'd want to date Snape?".

For how does she define good people and what is the line she draws for someone to find love? It seems so odd to me. :lol:

I think JKR was making a joke. :) A lot of her interview comments are made in a very light-hearted manner, and I'm sure some of them are not to be taken too seriously, including this comment. Just IMO.

Heck, Voldemort had someone who adored him, why can't Snape or Dumbledore

Dumbledore sure had a lot of people who adored him, although not in that way, probably. :)

And I can certainly imagine him with a nice baritone voice.

He probably sounded a lot like Judge Turbin in the recent Sweeney Todd movie. :lol:

*nods* Fair enough. Let me rephrase to conform to the subject:

"I don't think Jo found Snape unloveable. I think she merely thought his brand of love not particularly healthy for young girls to subject themselves to (or wish of the same) - Snape was shown as very demanding on emotional/romantic plane at one point, and obsessive at another.

However, I don't think this particular trait of his character has anything to do with Snape being labeled "good" or "bad" on the whole as it would constitute discrimination"

Better? ;)

Well in story all of the analysis does not really apply I don't think because it isn't like Snape set out to attract someone and failed. He didn't seem bothered with that at all - he seemed more inclined to repel associations of all types, imo, friends, acquaintances, as well as love interests, etc.

I agree with Raelis that JKR was mildly joking in her choice of words. But I think at first she was speaking in terms of the superficial character she had painted physcially - the long, greasy stringy locks, sallow skin, tunneled black eyes, yellowing, uneven teeth, in all black. The classic dark type individual in her books like Peter and Greyback, Rockwell etc., and I don't think she had thought of them in terms of being attractive. But bad boy syndrome is a more serious concern of hers and I agree with Cathy's interpretation of those words relative to the message of trying to change people.

But as I say, that is the superfcial stuff. The character as drawn, generally supercedes looks for me - so if Snape had been a kind and loving person, I would not have dwelled on the description, mainly because I don't feel the canon would have either. Part of his superficial characterization (looks) were revealed in the midst of his character indicators - like when he bared his teeth in vindictive anger, we found out about their condition, when he smirked as if enjoying himself, his lips were described as thin, etc. So it seemed as if it was to assist in an understanding of his overall character as well. It added to his dark and scary nature for me and I think JKR was using it to perpetuate her red herrings to help keep people confused about Snape's loyalties.

But it didn't work with me, I knew he wasn't on the evil side and that is danger of red herring writing if the character is going to come out a goodsider, imo. Those who don't fall for the red herrings are studying the character throughout the series as if he is a 'goodsider' and the behavior is all the worse for it because one never thinks "ah he is actually a bad sider and that is why he is acting that way" - instead I interpreted everything Snape did as a goodsider who was behaving in an extraordinarily negative fashion all along. That was never adjusted in the canon so my ideas about his character remained the same to the end. One chapter describing the ins and outs of Snape's viewpoint can't change 6.5 books of characterization for me, especially when the chapter here, TPT, was not about Snape's character at all and strove only to enlighten as to his viewpoint (evil v. good), imo. His character remained identical to what we aready had throughout those memories and the viewpoint change didn't affect me at all because I always figured him on the good side. The motivation for his change I wasn't into, so that did not help either, it drew out my disdain rather than my sympathy for the character.

But as I say, that is the superfcial stuff. The character as drawn, generally supercedes looks for me - so if Snape had been a kind and loving person, I would not have dwelled on the description, mainly because I don't feel the canon would have either....

Yes, but then the description would have been completely different - wouldn't it? I really feel Jo was hammering her point in here - this was an individual one wouldn't like to associate him/her self with.

Just a quick prompt, though, even if discussing it would fit better in another thread: what explicit information do we have on James' character, and what does he look like?

One chapter describing the ins and outs of Snape's viewpoint can't change 6.5 books of characterization for me...

I wholeheartedly agree. :agree: And I don't think it was intended to - our likely reactions to certain Snape's actions are not going to be affected by a bit of a backstory. The overall descriptor, though... :hmm:

Unfortunately, I'm not the right person to discuss this - Jo already had me at "dunderheads". :lol:

...The motivation for his change I wasn't into, so that did not help either, it drew out my disdain rather than my sympathy for the character.

Are you saying it wouldn't have mattered to you if you found out Snape's change of heart was elicited by some less... err... self-serving motives? :huh:

Also, I don't think Jo had us *looks at 'age' info* in mind when considering the effect of TPT... But then, my guess is as good as any. *shrugs*

Yes, but then the description would have been completely different - wouldn't it? I really feel Jo was hammering her point in here - this was an individual one wouldn't like to associate him/her self with.

Just a quick prompt, though, even if discussing it would fit better in another thread: what explicit information do we have on James' character, and what does he look like?

I agree, that was my point, the description would have been far different than the one we got. That is what I meant also, Jo was hammering her point home - but there was the element of red herring involved in her thinking, imo. James looks like Harry Potter with different color eyes and a slightly longer nose. But the point I think you are raising is valid here.

Jo picks and chooses when giving physical descriptions and they are often linked to the character's overall rendering, imo. Draco's thin face was creased with anger and his pointy chin emphasized alot. Lupin's shabby appearance, body scratches and tired appearance were mentioned nearly every time he was speaking or being observed. Lockheart's good looks, on the other hand, were emphasized in such a way as to make them distasteful (a gleaming white toothed smile after recounting a lie in a bragging manner, etc) as vanity was a part of his fault.

It was the same with Snape, imo, the less than attractive features (assuming most people are not fond of yellow, uneven teeth, greasy hair, etc., and noting that some people may find these things attractive) were mentioned in line with his negative behavior. With Snape you get everything dark or in grey though.

Analysing the SWM scene. Was his being lifted by a spell and his underwear revealed supposed to engender sympathy in the reader, or only in Harry? From the Author's standpoint, she had just had Snape issue a rather offensive curse, so the move she has occur afterward is retaliatory. But is it to make the reader forget the curse and focus solely on Snape's humiliation? Analysing the scene carefully, mere use of the word "underwear" may have allowed me to make that interpretation - but the fact that the underwear were greying, later described by Lily as unclean and the fact that she added the bit about his pallid, skinny legs, leads me to take her to be infusing humor - laughing at the character - as a part of the contrived literary work, imo (note even the defending Lily must hide a smile). Later Snape seemingly turns on Lily with his prejudice statement and again the sympathy factor for the character is substantially decreased.

Harry subsequently is sympathetic, initially only in terms of bad thoughts of his dad - but while understanding his thoughts, Jo has him carry them to far fetched extremes, which to me was a clear indication that one had to consider Harry's thoughts as possibly out of line (and verified a chapter later when he finds out his father did not force his mother to marry him.) Later, Harry sympathises again, noting that he understands how it feels to be humiliated in a crowd. While I couldn't recall at that time his having been humiliated in a crowd and took for granted that he had been, I did remember distinctly Draco being so humiliated by being turned into a ferret and Harry's glee and laughter at the time. Did Jo intend for us to forget his enjoyment of Draco's humiliation? Perhaps, but I did not. Hence, Harry's lamentation lost a lot of its possible sympathetic value, as he clearly forgot how it felt while watching Draco's torment. Further, we later learn that Snape created the spell that he was lifted up with, again, decreasing any thoughts of sympathy for the character.

So analysis of this scene, using the negative descriptors and consequently sympathetic values that are easily negated, you again end up with a very dark grey Snape, imo, vering on dark. In part, I feel it was to perpetuate the red herring, but because no character adjustment was later had, it was also entirely revealing of Snape's true character and nature, imo.

Are you saying it wouldn't have mattered to you if you found out Snape's change of heart was elicited by some less... err... self-serving motives? :huh:

On the contrary, it would have. I was merely saying that what we got had no such consequence. The motive for his view change did not draw sympathy, but disdain from me, so it did not assist in shifting the position of the character in my mind in an analytical sense.

Also, I don't think Jo had us *looks at 'age' info* in mind when considering the effect of TPT... But then, my guess is as good as any. *shrugs*

I feel she had all of her readers in mind. I think she also understood that they might all have differing judgments in the wake of the revelation.

First of all I just want to pop in here to express my admiration for all of you people who keep discussing Snape for so long! That takes stamina! :) :lol:

Secondly and randomly related to what we are discussing here, Snape may have a lot of fans but canonwise nobody loves him in the books. In fact he pushed away the only person who geniously liked him as a friend. I'm not sure that Dumbledore felt affection for Snape in a friendship way. Maybe he did, maybe not.

A couple of excellent posts Pearl_Took! :)

Thank you! :)

First of all I just want to pop in here to express my admiration for all of you people who keep discussing Snape for so long! That takes stamina! :) :lol:

Thank you! :D But stamina? ;) Discussing Snape is one of my hobbies! :rockon:

Secondly and randomly related to what we are discussing here, Snape may have a lot of fans but canonwise nobody loves him in the books.

Not even his mother? :( I'm not sure we can say for sure from canon that Eileen didn't have any maternal feelings.

I can't stand that somebody could never be loved, that is the worst thing. And being loved is an utterly foundational thing. In RL, people who are deprived of love in early life become people who are seriously disturbed and damaged. And Canon Snape is damaged. Of course that does not absolve him of moral responsibility as a young lad and a grown man, but he couldn't help the bleak and unlovely circumstances of his early life, or having a father who verbally -- and possibly physically -- abused his mother.

Snape pushes people away because he is an insecure person who doesn't, in canon, receive any love.

JKR gives him one of the bleakest lives I've ever read for a literary character. :sigh: (My other candidate for Bleakest Life in the Potterverse is obviously the blighted Sirius.) However, I can't deny that it's a very effective literary device.

And a sure way to make your female readers like a particular character is to devise a particularly bleak, loveless life for them, IMO. :whistle: Other qualities have to be there in the character too, of course!

Like courage. :cool:

First of all I just want to pop in here to express my admiration for all of you people who keep discussing Snape for so long! That takes stamina! :) :lol:

LOL!

Secondly and randomly related to what we are discussing here, Snape may have a lot of fans but canonwise nobody loves him in the books.

I think Dumbledore cared for him and so did Harry (in the end) and Lily. I think Lily may have even continued to love him, even after she broke off with him, as a friend of course. :)

In fact he pushed away the only person who geniously liked him as a friend. I'm not sure that Dumbledore felt affection for Snape in a friendship way. Maybe he did, maybe not.

Yes he did push her away to his regret IMO.

I think his lonliness was also self-enforced, partly by the role he had chosen to play and partly because I think he was a loner, than being unwanted or shunned by others for his looks, House or suspected affiliations. He did not choose to make the effort to become friendly, and so I'd like to think he would have had friends, had he made the effort.

I think his loneliness was also self-enforced, partly by the role he had chosen to play and partly because I think he was a loner, than being unwanted or shunned by others for his looks, House or suspected affiliations. He did not choose to make the effort to become friendly, and so I'd like to think he would have had friends, had he made the effort.

I agree, but I also see that as being more true of Snape the adult than of Snape at earlier stages in his life.

As a young boy, he seems painfully insecure and lonely to me, which IMO very much explains his passionate attachment to Lily, the only other magical child he knows. And she's pretty, and sweet-tempered, and totally accepting of him, despite his unkempt, greasy hair and weird clothes ... no wonder he latches onto her the way he does.

Snape the teenager seems isolated and still struggling to be accepted as well, despite his association with boys like Mulciber and Avery who shared his own fascination with the Dark Arts and who were, unfortunately, dedicated to practising 'evil' magic on innocents like Mary Mcdonald. But since we don't have any canon about Snape's actual interaction with Mulciber and Avery, we can't really comment on his friendships with them or how popular a boy he was within his own House (Slytherin). Clearly, outside Slytherin, he was not popular. Canon does seem to point to the cause of his unpopularity: that other students perceived him as being in league with other Dark Arts lovers.

Could Snape have made lasting friendships had he wanted to, even when he was young? I think there is a possibility. He made the first move with Lily, failed, but persevered and became not only her friend before Hogwarts, but held on to that friendship despite being in different Houses for over 6 years. During that time, he also made friends with Avery and Mulciber and Narcissa begs him to help Draco for his old friend.

While I think Avery, Mulciber and Lucius were not friends like Lily was, that is they did not know Snape like she did or have his respect like she commanded, I think had Snape wanted to make new friends, he could have very well put in the effort in to creating that friendship with others, like he did with Lily.

Could Snape have made lasting friendships had he wanted to, even when he was young? I think there is a possibility. He made the first move with Lily, failed, but persevered and became not only her friend before Hogwarts, but held on to that friendship despite being in different Houses for over 6 years.

Well, that is quite true. It does point to a real tenacity in his character.

We see that tenacity in his grim and thankless task as double agent -- particularly once Voldemort returns. Snape sticks to it to the bitter end.

While I think Avery, Mulciber and Lucius were not friends like Lily was, that is they did not know Snape like she did or have his respect like she commanded,

IMO, we don't have enough canon to make statements like this. :) We don't know how close a friendship Severus had with Mulciber, Avery or Lucius, do we? Canon does seem to point to a close connection between him and the Malfoy family.

And Teenage Severus has split thinking when it comes to his beloved Lily. She's a Muggleborn, one of those weird, inferior people that some of his peers in Slytherin are hellbent on persecuting and about who Severus himself makes disparaging remarks. But he makes an exception for her because she's Lily.

I think had Snape wanted to make new friends, he could have very well put in the effort in to creating that friendship with others, like he did with Lily.

I agree with this. There is no reason to suppose he could not have done that. He's a loner in canon, but loners are capable of making strong friendships too.

I agree with this. There is no reason to suppose he could not have done that. He's a loner in canon, but loners are capable of making strong friendships too.

I always felt the canon was ambiguous on this point (including some of JKR's comments). Snape is clearly an outcast among the general student body - but wasn't Mulciber also an outcast in that respect? Meaning all of those who were behaving like budding Death Eaters?

Then there is the idea that he was an outcast in Slytherin also, for various reasons, none of which are provided for in canon. For example, his being a half blood - no half blood was ever ridiculed in canon by those in attendence at Hogwarts for their birth - markedly, no Slytherin was. Another example is his lack of wealth and his general appearance, but again, kids don't generally care so much about that stuff (i.e., Lupin) and only make fun of their enemies in that regard in my experience and to my memory in the literature (i.e., Draco v. Ron, etc.)

Finally, there is the fact that Snape takes up for his buddies against Lily - and ultimately chooses to side with them when she ends the friendship. People have suggested that Snape became tongue tied, or for some other reason was unable to rectify the situation during that friendship ending scene. But I don't buy it because he had a year and a half to come to grips with the situation and make things right, and he did not. A completely friendless outcast would not allow his only friend to go so easily - and Lily did call Mulciber and Avery his friends.

So I am not left with the impression that Snape is any more of an outcast that say, Goyle. And in my opinion, most of it was self-imposed due to their behavior and the friendships they chose to cultivate - and those they chose not to cultivate or allowed to end.

The term "outcast" places an onus on other people, imo. As if they are responsible for making the person an "outcast" in some unfair fashion. While I think in real life that is sometimes true, in Potterverse, these outcasts like Snape, Goyle, Draco, Crabbe, Mulciber, et. al., had brought it upon themselves by and through their negative activities and their behavior toward others, imo. Their respective school life experiences differed, and 'outcast' meant something unique to each of them, imo, but in terms of others making them outcasts, I don't see that happening at all. Not that it never happened, I think Neville and Luna experienced that as well, more in unfair terms. But I don't feel that Snape is comparable in the sense that his negative behavior would have been a prinicple reason that he was looked down upon by others, imo - like Draco, Goyle, and Crabbe in Harry's years. If JKR was attempting to distinguish Snape in some way, then I feel she failed because I see no evidence in canon that Snape ever attempted to behave in a manner than was better than what we saw of Draco and his mates, in any of the memories or tales of Snape's youth. Snape's making an exception of Lily does not help, considering he had a huge crush on her and the substance of their conversations and their interaction as shown in the memories displayed Snape showing disregard for her opinions and sensibilities. This is not assisted by the fact that he called others Mudblood and found using dark magic against others a laugh (DH) - in defense of his friends. I don't see how that would translate into Snape being willing to make an exception for anyone else or anything along those lines. So I don't see the character as distinguishable from other young budding Death Eaters we met, like Goyle.

I always felt the canon was ambiguous on this point. Snape is clearly an outcast among the general student body - but wasn't Mulciber also an outcast in that respect? Meaning all of those who were behaving like budding Death Eaters?

Who knows? :) We're not told, or shown. :cool:

All we have to go on is that Gryffindors like Lily (and James, for that matter) found the sort of Dark Magic practised on Mary Mcdonald to be 'evil'. We can only surmise from that that the Dark Magic was cruel and sadistic.

We've no idea how the rest of the school reacted to the DE wannabe group within Slytherin.

IMO, we don't have enough canon to make statements like this. :) We don't know how close a friendship Severus had with Mulciber, Avery or Lucius, do we? Canon does seem to point to a close connection between him and the Malfoy family.

I think Lily's friendship he valued; so much that Lily is able to talk ill of Avery and Mulciber (whom she calls evil and is pretty scathing about them); Lily IMo seems to have had great influence over him not only while he was her friend, but even when she walked out of that friendship. I don't think Snape would feel too much for the loss of friendship with Avery, Mulciber and Lucius. :shrug: :)

I think Lily's friendship he valued; so much that Lily is able to talk ill of Avery and Mulciber (whom she calls evil and is pretty scathing about them); Lily IMo seems to have had great influence over him not only while he was her friend, but even when she walked out of that friendship. I don't think Snape would feel too much for the loss of friendship with Avery, Mulciber and Lucius. :shrug: :)

I agree. The fact that Lily could talk like that about them would indicate that Lily was more important to Snape than his Slytherin friends. Normally, an attack on someone's friend provokes some sort of reaction. I think that Snape valued Lily's opinion and knew that she was right about Avery et al.

I agree. The fact that Lily could talk like that about them would indicate that Lily was more important to Snape than his Slytherin friends. Normally, an attack on someone's friend provokes some sort of reaction. I think that Snape valued Lily's opinion and knew that she was right about Avery et al.

In that case, he should have listened to her when she expressed her grave concerns about Avery et al and instead he just laughed it off. :whistle:

No doubt that Lily was ultimately the person Severus most cared about, but he blew it in his teen years. :sigh:

But this might belong more in the Snape and Lily thread ...

All we have to go on is that Gryffindors like Lily (and James, for that matter) found the sort of Dark Magic practised on Mary Mcdonald to be 'evil'. We can only surmise from that that the Dark Magic was cruel and sadistic.

I have no doubt that young Snape would readily attached that particular adjective - "evil" - to the worst memory incident, which was perceived as "a laugh" by the Marauders. So I wouldn't be that quick in adding "cruel" and "sadistic".... *shrugs*

Another example is his lack of wealth and his general appearance, but again, kids don't generally care so much about that stuff

Whereas I'll readily agree on #1 (wealth), I can't say the same about #2 (general appearance). Or maybe you were just lucky picking out schools... :lol:

We don't know how close a friendship Severus had with Mulciber, Avery or Lucius, do we?

Actually, for Lucius we do - both Narcissa and Umbridge hint at it ("old friend" and "thinks highly of you").

And I can totally see it coming about, despite the proverbial social snobbery of one and "loner" qualities of the other. :lol:

I have no doubt that your Snape would readily attached that particular adjective - "evil" - to the worst memory incident, which was perceived as "a laugh" by the Marauders. So I wouldn't be that quick in adding "cruel" and "sadistic".... *shrugs*

Well, we already know that. We know that Severus felt bullied by the M-boys, and I would agree that SWM was an example of bullying ... and we also know that Severus had invented one of the spells, Levicorpus, that the M-boys turned on him. That doesn't excuse them (I loathe SWM) but he's no angel either.

The mods get antsy when we start straying into Snape v Marauders territory so I really don't want to pursue this any further.

But I'd like to know why you thought Lily was so disturbed by what Mulciber and Avery were doing. Do you think she was exaggerating? Perhaps that's one for the Lily thread though.

But I'd like to know why you thought Lily was so disturbed by what Mulciber and Avery were doing. Do you think she was exaggerating? Perhaps that's one for the Lily thread though.

Seeing as Lilly didn't raise her voice while recounting the incident, I'm prone to believe the budding DEs simply humiliated the girl in some way. Perhaps a carefully timed Imperius to have the girl profess her undying love for a centaur? My guess is as good as yours.. *shrugs*

It all comes down to your preconceived image of Snape's character. My brain simply refuses to process the information based on the equation reading "Dark Magic Applied" + "Not Expelled From Hogwarts Despite There Being Whitnessess" = conclusion ;)

First of all I just want to pop in here to express my admiration for all of you people who keep discussing Snape for so long! That takes stamina! :) :lol:

Secondly and randomly related to what we are discussing here, Snape may have a lot of fans but canonwise nobody loves him in the books. In fact he pushed away the only person who geniously liked him as a friend. I'm not sure that Dumbledore felt affection for Snape in a friendship way. Maybe he did, maybe not.

Isa!! *faints* So nice to see you in the Snape thread!

Snape pushes people away because he is an insecure person who doesn't, in canon, receive any love.

Well I'd disagree with both of you. :p

I think that Eileen loved Severus - though she was not overly affectionate, and I think that Lily loved him as a friend. But as they say a taste of honey is worse than none at all (well perhaps not) I think he had a little love but it was insufficient for him to grow into a well rounded individual.

no half blood was ever ridiculed in canon by those in attendence at Hogwarts for their birth - markedly, no Slytherin was
But it is very clear in the books that for those who care about such things a half-blood was not as good as a pure-blood. That is after all why they have those words to define someones lineage. I would also cite Bella in the ministry calling Harry a filthy Half-blood - even though both his parents were magical Lily doesn't count because she was muggleborn - that is the kind of mentality that these pure-blood supremists have. I think this is an important point, because Jo likened it to the kind of extreme prejudice faced by the Jews from the Nazis, where a single Jewish grandparent was regarded as enough to "taint" you.

Another example is his lack of wealth and his general appearance, but again, kids don't generally care so much about that stuff (i.e., Lupin) and only make fun of their enemies in that regard in my experience and to my memory in the literature
Are you serious? Kids care very much about clothes and appearance - have you ever heard of peer pressure?

I think Severus was to a degree a loner. But being a loner doesn't mean you don't need love - it just means you don't need to be around people for a lot of the time. So while I think that Severus enjoyed his own company and was on the whole okay with being on his own, I also think that because he lacked any sort of really good loving relationship he often felt lonely and unloved.


But I don't feel that Snape is comparable in the sense that his negative behavior would have been a prinicple reason that he was looked down upon by others, imo What negative behaviour? We are not shown any instances of "negative behaviour" by Snape while he is a school boy. Lily references him calling other muggleborns "mudblood" but I think that is about it.

So I don't see the character as distinguishable from other young budding Death Eaters we met, like Goyle.
I don't recall Goyle being best friends with a muggleborn gryffindor for 4+ years.

All we have to go on is that Gryffindors like Lily (and James, for that matter) found the sort of Dark Magic practised on Mary Mcdonald to be 'evil'. We can only surmise from that that the Dark Magic was cruel and sadistic.I don't think Dark Magic is necessarily cruel and sadistic - perhaps I'm being picky but I prefer the word sinister. My reason for this is because the Imperius curse, as used on Rosmerta for example, does not necessarily harm the victim, but it is taking away their free will. In many ways I find this far more worrying than out and out violence. I have a feeling that it was something of this nature that Mulciber and Avery did on Mary McDonald, because Severus could laugh it off, while Lily would be disturbed by it.

Seeing as Lilly didn't raise her voice while recounting the incident, I'm prone to believe the budding DEs simply humiliated the girl in some way. Perhaps a carefully timed Imperius to have the girl profess her undying love for a centaur? My guess is as good as yours.. *shrugs*

I think the implication from canon is pretty clear. She's disturbed about what he's getting into, and for good reason.

I like fanfiction :) but when we're discussing the text I'd rather work with canon, not resort to fanon. JMO. :)

It all comes down to your preconceived image of Snape's character. My brain simply refuses to process the information based on the equation reading "Dark Magic Applied" + "Not Expelled From Hogwarts Despite There Being Whitnessess" = conclusion ;)

Why would Severus have been expelled for using Dark Magic?

I mean, there's a dangerous racist cult growing within Slytherin House during the mid 1970s and I don't see Albus Dumbledore rushing to do anything much about it. To be frank. :whistle:

Well, that's enough Sev-like snarking from me. :p

Isa!! *faints* So nice to see you in the Snape thread!

Yes, we were honoured to have quad make an appearance. :D :)

Well I'd disagree with both of you. :p

:sad:

Kidding. :cool:

I think that Eileen loved Severus - though she was not overly affectionate, and I think that Lily loved him as a friend. But as they say a taste of honey is worse than none at all (well perhaps not) I think he had a little love but it was insufficient for him to grow into a well rounded individual.

I'd agree he didn't have enough love all round. Yes.

But it is very clear in the books that for those who care about such things a half-blood was not as good as a pure-blood. That is after all why they have those words to define someones lineage. I would also cite Bella in the ministry calling Harry a filthy Half-blood - even though both his parents were magical Lily doesn't count because she was muggleborn - that is the kind of mentality that these pure-blood supremists have. I think this is an important point, because Jo likened it to the kind of extreme prejudice faced by the Jews from the Nazis, where a single Jewish grandparent was regarded as enough to "taint" you.

I totally agree with this. Being pureblood is one huge, big deal for the racist DEs and they very conveniently go into denial about Voldemort being a half-blood, in the scary way that human beings are so good at denial.

Severus calling himself the Half-Blood Prince is Severus being ironic with himself, IMO ... and that seems very Sev-like to me.

I don't think Dark Magic is necessarily cruel and sadistic - perhaps I'm being picky but I prefer the word sinister. My reason for this is because the Imperius curse, as used on Rosmerta for example, does not necessarily harm the victim, but it is taking away their free will. In many ways I find this far more worrying than out and out violence. I have a feeling that it was something of this nature that Mulciber and Avery did on Mary McDonald, because Severus could laugh it off, while Lily would be disturbed by it.

That's a very good perception. :tu: I agree. 'Sinister' covers it.

I think the implication from canon is pretty clear. She's disturbed about what he's getting into, and for good reason.
I like fanfiction :) but when we're discussing the text I'd rather work with canon, not resort to fanon. JMO. :)

With all due respect... Reference to fanfiction here is completely unwarranted. I was making a far-fetched assumption on purpose, as there is absolutely nothing in the canon to rule out the possibility that they weren't simply using Imperius on someone, which is an Unforgivable, and would be - still is - considered evil/dark/a reason to worry in the canon. And Lilly was upset by Levicorpus when applied to her friends, for Merlin's sake!

Why would Severus have been expelled for using Dark Magic?

Because James and Sirius received detention for merely using "illegal hex", as we get to learn when dear old Professor has The-Boy-Who-Wouldn't-Roll-Over-And-Die in detention re-writing student cards. I'd think serious Dark Magic would merit a bit more... severe a reaction from the staff?

And it was Slughorn who was Head of Slytherin at the time, if memory serves me correctly - not at all likely to let a witnessed dabbing in Dark Arts go unpunished. No DE aspirations there... :relax:

But it is very clear in the books that for those who care about such things a half-blood was not as good as a pure-blood. That is after all why they have those words to define someones lineage. I would also cite Bella in the ministry calling Harry a filthy Half-blood - even though both his parents were magical Lily doesn't count because she was muggleborn - that is the kind of mentality that these pure-blood supremists have. I think this is an important point, because Jo likened it to the kind of extreme prejudice faced by the Jews from the Nazis, where a single Jewish grandparent was regarded as enough to "taint" you.

I agree completely that the pure blood supremist attitude was terrible. I can’t emphasize how horrible I feel expressions and acts of prejudice or acts based in prejudice are.

However, first, Snape was not among the targeted group (muggles and muggleborns) nor was he among the secondarily targeted group (half bloods and purebloods who were against Voldemort, the dark arts and the associated values). So I see no reason why Snape would have any problem at all in this regard. Second, Snape was calling others Mudblood (and he called Lily a filthy little one in canon). Too, he was very negative in his behavior to Petunia because she was “just a Muggle”. Snape not only held the same beliefs as people like Bella, imo, but also actively behaved and acted in the same way as these blood purists, imo.

It is therefore highly unlikely that he faced this same type of prejudice, in my judgment, as I feel that would cure his desire to use it against others. Perhaps he was just that vindictive and petty that he would anyway – but I don’t feel that was the case. As I said, this was not behavior that was ever shown by students at Hogwarts in the books against Slytherins and especially not those who were budding death eaters. Thus, while I agree 100% with your ideology above, I do not feel it applies in any way shape or form to Snape. Snape was on the other side of the picture. He was one of those that was harassing and bullying others with this type of horrendous behavior, imo.

What negative behaviour? We are not shown any instances of "negative behaviour" by Snape while he is a school boy. Lily references him calling other muggleborns "mudblood" but I think that is about it.

yes, this was absolutely an example of his negative behavior, bullying the other kids on account of their birthright. But I feel there is other canon expressing many other aspects of negative behavior on Snape’s part – all of which I have stated many times. I feel you and I see this distinctly and would have to agree to disagree. I find his behavior to have been negative - and in some cases evil in light of his being a budding Death Eater - so we are likely far apart on our vision of this.

I don't recall Goyle being best friends with a muggleborn gryffindor for 4+ years.

Well I spoke about that distinction. Snape did not behave any better for having her as a friend, imo, so I fail to see how this would be applicable.

I don't think Dark Magic is necessarily cruel and sadistic - perhaps I'm being picky but I prefer the word sinister. My reason for this is because the Imperius curse, as used on Rosmerta for example, does not necessarily harm the victim, but it is taking away their free will. In many ways I find this far more worrying than out and out violence. I have a feeling that it was something of this nature that Mulciber and Avery did on Mary McDonald, because Severus could laugh it off, while Lily would be disturbed by it.

I would have to agree that dark magic, all of it, is cruel and sadistic. I cannot think of one dark curse that was not. All of them cause bodily or mental harm and it can be very severe. I do not consider the results of Harry's use of Sectumsempra against Draco merely a sinister type result. It is a cruel and sadistic result and if he had meant to do it, he would have been behaving in a cruel and sadistic manner, imo. Based on all of the dark magic we saw in canon, whatever Mulciber did to Mary was necessarily cruel and sadistic, imo, and Snape validating it speaks to his mentality at the time. I do not understand your above point - are you saying that the imperius curse - controling someone's mind and behavior - is not very bad? I would have to respectfully disagree. Stan could have easily been killed during the event the DEs made him engage in while imperiused (7 Potters). And Snape laughing it off would be part of his "negative behavior" I spoke of earlier - I feel that laughing off dark magic that harms or controls others to that degree is behaving in an evil manner. In my view, that was the mentality Voldemort and the DEs were advocating.

With all due respect... Reference to fanfiction here is completely unwarranted. I was making a far-fetched assumption on purpose, as there is absolutely nothing in the canon to rule out the possibility that they weren't simply using Imperius on someone, which is an Unforgivable, and would be - still is - considered evil/dark/a reason to worry in the canon.

Sorry. :blush:

But it did sound like you didn't take Lily's concerns about Severus very seriously ...

'Imperio' would cause enough concern, for sure.

Because James and Sirius received detention for merely using "illegal hex", as we get to learn when dear old Professor has The-Boy-Who-Wouldn't-Roll-Over-And-Die in detention re-writing student cards. I'd think serious Dark Magic would merit a bit more... severe a reaction from the staff?

Maybe the kids who were into Dark Arts were good at not getting caught ...

Maybe the kids who were into Dark Arts were good at not getting caught ...

I think the point here is that Avery and Mulciber in this case with Mary MacDonald, had so many witnesses that it was common knowledge around the school what happened. It seems clear to me from the text that neither Lily nor Severus was present at the actual incident. Lily, because one presumes she would have intervened. Severus, because Lily does not accuse him of involvement, just association with those involved.

I think the point here is that Avery and Mulciber in this case with Mary MacDonald, had so many witnesses that it was common knowledge around the school what happened. It seems clear to me from the text that neither Lily nor Severus was present at the actual incident. Lily, because one presumes she would have intervened. Severus, because Lily does not accuse him of involvement, just association with those involved.

I agree, but I think the students knowing is quite different than the professors knowing. Nonetheless, there is no canon that the boy was not caught and punished. While I feel that using dark magic should merit expulsion, I doubt that was the case when Snape was at school. Many budding death eaters were likely using it and Dumbledore was headmaster. I feel he'd rather use punishment and discussion because sending them home to their parents in most cases would do nothing at all for them. The parents might then send them to a more dark arts friendly school.

I don't feel that the point of the conversation between Snape and Lily had anything to do with whether or not they were present when Mulciber used dark magic on Mary. They both knew what happened; and Snape felt it was a laugh, while Lily was appalled ("if you think that's funny"). Obviously it wasn't funny at all in her opinion, which makes sense because it was harmful dark magic - not something her lip would twitch over.

In that case, he should have listened to her when she expressed her grave concerns about Avery et al and instead he just laughed it off. :whistle:

I agree; he should have listened to her, he would have saved so much pain for himself, but that he did not listen to her, does not mean, he's closer to Avery and Mulciber than Lily IMO.

But I'd like to know why you thought Lily was so disturbed by what Mulciber and Avery were doing. Do you think she was exaggerating? Perhaps that's one for the Lily thread though.

You did not ask me, but I would like to answer as well. :) I will do so in the Snape and Lily thread.

Based on all of the dark magic we saw in canon, whatever Mulciber did to Mary was necessarily cruel and sadistic, imo, and Snape validating it speaks to his mentality at the time. I do not understand your above point - are you saying that the imperius curse - controling someone's mind and behavior - is not very bad? I would have to respectfully disagree.
:no: That is not what I said at all. I said that Dark Magic did not necessarily have to be cruel and sadistic - that is it does not necessarily have to cause harm (physical or mental) but that it is by its very nature sinister. My point was that whatever was done to Mary McDonald did not have to have physically harmed in order to be bad - in fact I was suggestting that given the reactions of Severus and Lily - the former laughing it off and the second being alarmed by it - that the Dark Magic performed on her was unlikely to have been something that physically harmed her. I have no idea what you thought I was saying, but I was drawing a conclusion about the type of spell used based on the reactions of different characters. I disagree that it was necessarily cruel and sadistic. We are told it was evil and Dark magic, byt that doesn't automatically mean it was cruel and sadistic.

I would also like to make the point that while Dark Magic is by it's nature sinister and evil, anything that is used to harm another individual must be seen in the same light. IMO it is just as bad to misuse relatively harmless spells in order to cause harm as it is to use Dark spells to cause harm, because IMO it is the intent that matters. The Unforgiveables are IMO named as such because there are no non-sinister uses for them, and for a spell to be thought of as Dark it must have sinister connotations. But that does not mean that ordinary spells cannot be used with evil intent - Death Eaters used stunning spells and the like, as well as Order members. So I do not subscribe to the idea that just because someone doesn't use Dark Magic they don't have sinister or evil intentions.

Can I just say that I agree with every word that Cathy just said? :whistle:

Thank you. :D

[off-topic:]Oh, and I'm with Lily on this issue: to me Dark spells mean just that = they're Dark. They're nasssty, precious. Whether it's Imperio, Crucio, Sectumsempra or anything else. But, as Cathy's post makes clear, intent in magic is what counts in the Potterverse: 'good' guys like Harry can succumb in a moment of weakness and throw a Dark spell like Crucio or Imperio. And yet Harry Stunning Carrow in a similar fit of anger and causing Carrow to knock his head or something would be hardly less worse, and I think the Imperio was justified, in the extreme circumstances Harry was in.

Sorry, little diversion there. If I have more thoughts on this, I'll take them somewhere more appropriate.[/off-topic]

Once again, this is me, setting up the sandwich table in the CathyWeasley camp....

Turkey, ham, tuna anyone?

:no: That is not what I said at all. I said that Dark Magic did not necessarily have to be cruel and sadistic - that is it does not necessarily have to cause harm (physical or mental) but that it is by its very nature sinister. My point was that whatever was done to Mary McDonald did not have to have physically harmed in order to be bad - in fact I was suggestting that given the reactions of Severus and Lily - the former laughing it off and the second being alarmed by it - that the Dark Magic performed on her was unlikely to have been something that physically harmed her. I have no idea what you thought I was saying, but I was drawing a conclusion about the type of spell used based on the reactions of different characters. I disagree that it was necessarily cruel and sadistic. We are told it was evil and Dark magic, byt that doesn't automatically mean it was cruel and sadistic.

I would disagree only because I feel we never saw a dark magic spell in canon that I didn't feel was cruel and sadistic. I am not sure upon what you are basing your assumption that the curse Mulciber used did not physically harm Mary. There is no canon regarding whether it was mental or physical harm, the two forms possible. Nonetheless, even if it were mental harm, I fail to see that as a reason that one student might find it 'a laugh' and another find it 'evil'. I suppose I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. Whatever the dark magic Mulciber used, it was harmful, mental or physically, and I fail to see how anyone could see that as a laugh, as Snape did, and be the least bit justified in doing so.

I would also like to make the point that while Dark Magic is by it's nature sinister and evil, anything that is used to harm another individual must be seen in the same light. IMO it is just as bad to misuse relatively harmless spells in order to cause harm as it is to use Dark spells to cause harm, because IMO it is the intent that matters. The Unforgiveables are IMO named as such because there are no non-sinister uses for them, and for a spell to be thought of as Dark it must have sinister connotations. But that does not mean that ordinary spells cannot be used with evil intent - Death Eaters used stunning spells and the like, as well as Order members. So I do not subscribe to the idea that just because someone doesn't use Dark Magic they don't have sinister or evil intentions.

Intent matters. But I am unsure why you are making this point. Every time Snape used a dark magic curse in canon, that I recall, his intent was to do harm. Even when killing Dumbledore or using dark magic during the course of his spying with Voldemort - his intent was to "cause death" and to "harm". Same with the Aurors who used it in defense. Their rationale (like Snape's when he killed Dumbledore) enlarged upon their intent, but part of that intent was still to cause harm or death to another. That is why dark magic is outlawed and why it is differentiated from light magic.

Snape made this distinction in canon himself during the Sectumsempra incident. He had come to realize the distinction that Lily was speaking to him about in DH - although at that time, he appeared not to see a difference between light and dark magic - when the intent was to cause harm. But there is a distinction, a very important one. Kids are going to hex and jinx and such, just like kids in our world have their little fights and brawls. But using dark magic is akin to bringing in a very dangerous element - like a knife or gun in our world. Note that a knife or gun may not kill, but it can, and both will cause harm when they meet their mark. So a line is drawn - perhaps philosophically one could argue that the line should be drawn at physical contact (a punch for instance) - but it isn't. Same in the wizard world, one could argue that the line should be drawn elsewhere - or no line at all - and include all spells with the intent to harm. But like in our world, they draw a line at dark magic (guns and knives) instead of using mere intent to harm (punching someone). So jinxes and hexes are also forbidden, as their intent is to harm, but the line of expected behavior is not drawn their when it comes to delinquency - it is drawn at dark magic. (Not to be confused with the very large line drawn between behavior that gets detention and that which does not - any spell can get you detention - that is when intent matters. But this is a different line)

This is what Lily was pointing out to Snape and later, what Snape was pointing out to Harry - he didn't say "oh Harry, I didn't believe you would ever hex or jinx anyone else" - because that is what many kids, including Harry, did all the time. It wasn't crossing the line. But Snape's remark, imo, indicated that Harry's use of dark magic indeed crossed the line of expected behavior of presumably good sider kids in the delinquency situation. Indeed, badsider kids would cross the line using it too, but it might be more expected. I think the fact we didn't see so much use of it at Hogwarts in Harry's day was precisely because Snape was the head of house of Slytherin.

IIntent matters.
If intent matters, do you see Levicorpus being used by Harry for the first time in the Gryffindor common room as cruel and sadistic?

If intent matters, do you see Levicorpus being used by Harry for the first time in the Gryffindor common room as cruel and sadistic?

No; I don't think so. Here Harry's intent was curiosity; he was trying a new spell from thge Prince's book; Harry casting the same on Ron in front of the Slytherins would not be good intent IMO. Likewise, Harry or Ron casting the spell on Draco would not be a prank, for the intention would be to humiliate IMO.

@ Snape killing Dumbledore :: the intent was to kill Dumbledore at that time; which can be called dark magic, but that intent to kill Dumbledore at the specified time, came came because of other reasons which were not dark at all. So even if this action of killing Dumbeldore with an unforgivable would acome under very dark magic, I think the intent makes it different.

I think intent matters and is probably the most important thing to measure if an action, is good, bad or ugly, with or without magic.

If intent matters, do you see Levicorpus being used by Harry for the first time in the Gryffindor common room as cruel and sadistic?

Levicorpus is not a dark magc curse.


Hogwarts:

NO DETENTION: light magc

DETENTION: light magic for an ill purpose & hexes and jinxes

DETENTION + CROSSING THE LINE: dark magic

Outside of Hogwarts:

Approved use: Light magic
Disapproved used: hexes and Jinxes and Light magic for an ill purpose
Forbidden use: Dark Magic (fines? Jail time? Gravity of the harm?) Unforgiveables: (Jail time) - exception - self defense-defense of third parties/equal force

That is my understanding of the canon in a nutshell.


To tie it in to our conversation: Snape and his friends at school were in category 3, crossing the line using Dark Magic. As an adult, Snape was in the Forbidden Use category while a DE and later his use of it (after changing sides) would have merited an exception on some occassions (killing Dumbledore), but not on others (use against Harry), imo.

I have answered in the Dark Arts and the Good Arts thread. :)

WWB: You seem to have missed my point - My point - using your analogy is that it isn't just people that carry knives and guns that are looking for trouble, and that you can cause an awful lot of harm - mental and physical - with some very innocuous items - e.g. a ball point pen.

I don't agree that we never saw a dark spell that wasn't cruel or sadistic. When Malfoy Imperiused Rosmerta there was no indication that she had been harmed in any way. She was merely unaware that she was doing anything wrong. Once the curse was lifted she no doubt felt very upset and angry about it, and she would probably have felt violated. Now I would certainly class this as sinister and evil, but I wouldn't class it as cruel and sadistic.

As for your categorization of crimes and punishments - I don't recall there being an indication of any of this in the books. All we are told is that use of an Unforgiveable earns you a lifetime in Azkaban.

In the series there was no definition given of what was Dark magic and what wasn't, and I think that is because there is no clear distinction - it is basically a sliding scale. Sectumsempra is obviously quite a dark spell, but I would also say that Levicorpus was a little bit dark as well because hoiking someone up by the ankle isn't a particularly friendly thing to do, though it might be considered a bit of a laugh.


As an adult, Snape was in the Forbidden Use category while a DE and later his use of it (after changing sides) would have merited an exception on some occassions (killing Dumbledore), but not on others (use against Harry), imo.
Snape never used Dark Magic on Harry. The only time we see Snape use an Unforgiveable is when he kills Dumbledore. In fact on page in the books we see Harry use more Unforgiveables than Snape.

Once again, this is me, setting up the sandwich table in the CathyWeasley camp....

Turkey, ham, tuna anyone?
Make mine a Turkey Club! :D :drool:

WWB: You seem to have missed my point - My point - using your analogy is that it isn't just people that carry knives and guns that are looking for trouble, and that you can cause an awful lot of harm - mental and physical - with some very innocuous items - e.g. a ball point pen.

I got that, I just did not see how it applied to Snape's use of dark curses.

I don't agree that we never saw a dark spell that wasn't cruel or sadistic. When Malfoy Imperiused Rosmerta there was no indication that she had been harmed in any way. She was merely unaware that she was doing anything wrong. Once the curse was lifted she no doubt felt very upset and angry about it, and she would probably have felt violated. Now I would certainly class this as sinister and evil, but I wouldn't class it as cruel and sadistic.

I hear you. We have to agree to disagree on this.

As for your categorization of crimes and punishments - I don't recall there being an indication of any of this in the books. All we are told is that use of an Unforgiveable earns you a lifetime in Azkaban.

Well I interpreted the Ministry having a department dedicated to uncovering dark items and seeking those doing dark magic to mean it was considered an offense. I also note that jinxes and hexes get detention, as well as light magic used for a good purpose. So I believe my categories are canon; I respect the fact that others may not share my view. Snape knew and used dark magic curses, imo and these are the type that were forbidden both at Hogwarts and outside of Hogwarts.

In the series there was no definition given of what was Dark magic and what wasn't, and I think that is because there is no clear distinction

Again, in your opinion. I feel that because many characters made comments like "but at least it wasn't dark magic" and "I wasn't aware you knew dark magic" and there being and entire book on the topic which Hermione found - all served to prove that Wizards did understand the distinction between light and dark magic - even if it is not clear to us. Hence to me, the canon does give us the knowledge that there is a clear distinction for wizards. Again, I respect the fact everyone may not interpret the canon in the same way.

This is what Lily explained to Snape. Also what Snape explained to Harry. Snape understood the distinction as an adult, imo.

- it is basically a sliding scale. Sectumsempra is obviously quite a dark spell, but I would also say that Levicorpus was a little bit dark as well because hoiking someone up by the ankle isn't a particularly friendly thing to do, though it might be considered a bit of a laugh.

I respect your interpretation. My "detention" category, which includes jinxes and hexes (of which Levicorpus is one) includes the idea that they are grey in nature because they don't serve any purpose in the main except to irritate and harass. But they don't do harm, according to the wizard world's definition, like dark magic does. So they are in a distinct category, imo.

Snape's Levicorpus and his Jelly leg Jinx were grey, but his Sectumsempra was dark magic - even when used to merely make a small gash. Even at that low level it was harmful enough to splatter blood. So imo, it evidenced his use of a dark curse that he used frequently which we found out in DH - A Fallen Warrior. I speculate (not canon) that he did not always use it so cautiously either and I support that idea with the fact that Lupin recognized the spell when it cut off George's ear - a much more elevated use - and he knew exactly what it was.

Snape never used Dark Magic on Harry. The only time we see Snape use an Unforgiveable is when he kills Dumbledore. In fact on page in the books we see Harry use more Unforgiveables than Snape.

In your opinion, and I respect that. I feel his whipping curse was dark magic and Snape used it on Harry in HBP. I respect the fact that others might see that distinctly. I also feel it is highly possible he used one to kill Charity in Dark Lord Ascending chapter of DH - some at Potterwatch hold that belief. And as for other dark magic uses, he was noted to have made it his specialty, indicating to me he used it quite frequently when young. Finally, Sirius said he knew more dark curses than some 7th years upon arrival at Hogwarts. If he was comparing to other budding Death Eaters, then I feel he was likely exaggerating a bit, but essentially being truthful. If he meant ALL 7th years, then I feel he was correct because some 7th years wouldn't know any at all. Plus of course I feel he used tons as a Death Eater. So that was the evidence for my statement.

Well I interpreted the Ministry having a department dedicated to uncovering dark items and seeking those doing dark magic to mean it was considered an offense. I also note that jinxes and hexes get detention, as well as light magic used for a good purpose. So I believe my categories are canon; I respect the fact that others may not share my view. Snape knew and used dark magic curses, imo and these are the type that were forbidden both at Hogwarts and outside of Hogwarts.
Your categories are not canon Wick - canon is what is in the books - your categories are your opinion of what is considered a punishable offense and what is not.


In the series there was no definition given of what was Dark magic and what wasn't, and I think that is because there is no clear distinction
Again, in your opinion. I feel that because many characters made comments like "but at least it wasn't dark magic" and "I wasn't aware you knew dark magic" and there being and entire book on the topic which Hermione found - all served to prove that Wizards did understand the distinction between light and dark magic - even if it is not clear to us. Hence to me, the canon does give us the knowledge that there is a clear distinction for wizards. Again, I respect the fact everyone may not interpret the canon in the same way.
It is not my opinion that there is no definition of Dark Magic in the books it is a fact that there isn't a ddefinition of Dark Magic in the books. If you have a quote which contains such a definition I would be extremely happy to see it! The point is that magic - like a gun or a knife - is a tool. These tools can be used for legitimate purposes but they can also be used for illegal purposes.

"Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic?"

The inclusion of the word "such" would seem to imply that some spells are darker than others. As I said before - a sliding scale with no very clear distinction between what is a Dark Magic and what isn't. "Light magic" is not a term used in the books.

Your categories are not canon Wick - canon is what is in the books - your categories are your opinion of what is considered a punishable offense and what is not.

:lol:. Well I didn't mean to say you could locate these neatly laid out in canon. But they are based on my interpretation, so canon for me in that respect.

With respect to Snape, my interpretation was that he did not consider dark magic and light magic to be any different when young. I feel he rationalized it as all fine and one huge category: "Magic". But he himself had to realize there was a distinction, at least deep down. After all, he had to feed his fascination about dark magic and the creation of dark spells on his own. They didn't teach that at Hogwarts. He would get anything from detention (at Hogwarts) to killed (as a DE) for using them and they caused harm (physical or mental). I think he was smart enough to realize that his rationale was only working for him (and perhaps his friends) and that the rest of the wizard world was not on board with his view. Lily tried to point this out to him and he was unresponsive, which leads me to believe he was rationalizing his use and fascination of dark magic.

It is not my opinion that there is no definition of Dark Magic in the books it is a fact that there isn't a ddefinition of Dark Magic in the books. If you have a quote which contains such a definition I would be extremely happy to see it! The point is that magic - like a gun or a knife - is a tool. These tools can be used for legitimate purposes but they can also be used for illegal purposes.

Right, but that is a very technical way to regard it, imo. There is no technical definition of "wizard", but throughout the series we learn the definition as it is understood in HP universe. Well that is how I derived my definition of dark magic.

The wizards could not even refer to anything as "dark magic" if there was no way to differentiate it from light magic, imo. The accio spell never becomes "dark magic" just because you kill someone with it. The AK is not a "light curse" merely because you miss your target and don't kill anyone - or in the case of Voldy - hit your target and they live anyway.

In my opinion, Snape understood the concept of light and dark magic very well. I feel all wizards did. I agree we don't know all of the curses that are included in that category - nor in any category - but there was a clear distinction made in the books, imo. Snape was aware he was dealing in dark magic when he became fascinated with the topic, imo.


"Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic?"

The inclusion of the word "such" would seem to imply that some spells are darker than others. As I said before - a sliding scale with no very clear distinction between what is a Dark Magic and what isn't. "Light magic" is not a term used in the books.

You provided one quote, I'll provide 2. "but at least it wasn't dark magic" (Lily DH). "Snape new more dark magic curses than most 7th years" (Sirius GoF). Those do not speak of a sliding scale.

In my interpretation, Snape was indicating that the sliding scale was within the category of "dark magic" - not all magic. For example, most would agree that an AK curse was worse than other forms of dark magic merely because the outcome is worse. But it is still all dark magic, imo. But a worse outcome is no justification for any dark magic to be considered funny (as Lily pointed out to Snape) because it is all harmful. Snape's dark creation, "Sectumsempra" harmed whether using it lightly (a gash that splatters blood); moderately (George's ear sliced off permanently); and fiercely (Draco nearly dying as he lay covered in bleeding gashes)

Moreover, one quote by Snape about dark magic cannot serve as support that all magic is on a sliding scale - he wasn't talking about all magic.

"Snape new more dark magic curses than most 7th years" (Sirius GoF).

We're looking at a highly subjective statement... What did Sirius do - quiz all the 7th years on Dark Arts? IMO, it's more likely that he was not aware of certain spells being considered "dark magic" and thus used them more overt than other students.

And Hermione uses Full Body-Bind Curse in her first year (as opposed to Draco, who flings it at Harry in their sixth year) which doesn't necessarily earn her "a budding DE" badge. :rolleyes:

Jo herself says:

"Curses:
Reserved for the worst kinds of dark magic."

Snape was aware he was dealing in dark magic when he became fascinated with the topic, imo.

I'm sorry, but I can't accept teenage fascination by dark magic as the default road to evil - for example, all DADA teachers would have had to pursue similar interests at some point in their lives.

I'm not about to argue his use of dark magic in DE days, but as for 11 year old Snape... *quotes a well-known (sadly departed) female character* :lol:

We're looking at a highly subjective statement... What did Sirius do - quiz all the 7th years on Dark Arts? IMO, it's more likely that he was not aware of certain spells being considered "dark magic" and thus used them more overt than other students.

At 11 perhaps one could make that argument for Snape - but at 16?

The point of that statement wasn't related to its truthfulness though. That as merely to point out that people in the wizard world used the term "dark curses" to specify a group of spells.

And Hermione uses Full Body-Bind Curse in her first year (as opposed to Draco, who flings it at Harry in their sixth year) which doesn't necessarily earn her "a budding DE" badge. :rolleyes:

True. However, she wasn't fascinated with the dark arts, prejudice, and gunning to join Voldemort. Snape was portrayed as a classic budding DE, imo, and while I don't know that he began that way at 11, by 16 years old, it was clear, in my judgment, that he had bloomed fully into that mode.

Jo herself says: "Curses: Reserved for the worst kinds of dark magic."
I'm sorry, but I can't accept teenage fascination by dark magic as the default road to evil - for example, all DADA teachers would have had to pursue similar interests at some point in their lives.

I agree. I don't think a fascination leads to evil by default. It is just that it did for Snape.

I'm not about to argue his use of dark magic in DE days, but as for 11 year old Snape... *quotes a well-known (sadly departed) female character* :lol:

At 11, Snape had the requisite muggle prejudice, possibly muggle-born as well. He had the fascination with the dark arts and wished to be in Slytherin (with its well known reputation). With his dark arts fascination, he was a step closer than Draco when he started at 11 - the rest is the same, imo. So while I don't think he walked in a budding DE, I think that began manifesting itself quite soon afterward in little ways until it bloomed. But it was enough for Lily to recognize all along - or as JKR said, she may have developed romantic feelings for him.

At 11, Snape had the requisite muggle prejudice, possibly muggle-born as well.

"... suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his -- a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner.... A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies.... A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick --"

It's more of a past conditioning, IMO. It wasn't "I despise Muggles because they are Muggles", but rather "I despise Muggles because they are always mean to me".

"Sirius let out a bark of laughter. "Impedimenta!" he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet, halfway through a dive toward his own fallen wand....
....James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the countercurse."

Now, this is the Impediment Curse, cast at roughly the same age as "Mulciber and Avery's idea of humor".

The only difference we get to see canon-wise is Snape going on to associate himself with the DE and Black going with the OP option; we don't actually get to see the former using Dark Magic after that point, not do we get to see the latter coming to abhor his own use of it in the past.

Another point to bear in mind: The "They don't use Dark Magic, though..." conversation preceded SWM.

I know I'm pushing the topic's limits here, but I can't think of another thread to put this in (it being 4 AM here and all - if there's a better place for this discussion feel free to point me ;) )...

It's OK for budding OPs because they get to use it on "the bad guys" (even if Snape is not yet a "bad guy" at that point), yet bad for budding DEs because... well, because they'll grow up to become DEs?

"Evil" is a relative term. And if you allow for the possibility that one could go "there and back again", I don't see why the other couldn't. :shrug:

"... suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his -- a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner.... A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies.... A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick --"

It's more of a past conditioning, IMO. It wasn't "I despise Muggles because they are Muggles", but rather "I despise Muggles because they are always mean to me".

"Sirius let out a bark of laughter. "Impedimenta!" he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet, halfway through a dive toward his own fallen wand....
....James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the countercurse."

Now, this is the Impediment Curse, cast at roughly the same age as "Mulciber and Avery's idea of humor".

The only difference we get to see canon-wise is Snape going on to associate himself with the DE and Black going with the OP option; we don't actually get to see the former using Dark Magic after that point, not do we get to see the latter coming to abhor his own use of it in the past.

Another point to bear in mind: The "They don't use Dark Magic, though..." conversation preceded SWM.

I know I'm pushing the topic's limits here, but I can't think of another thread to put this in (it being 4 AM here and all - if there's a better place for this discussion feel free to point me ;) )...

It's OK for budding OPs because they get to use it on "the bad guys" (even if Snape is not yet a "bad guy" at that point), yet bad for budding DEs because... well, because they'll grow up to become DEs?

"Evil" is a relative term. And if you allow for the possibility that one could go "there and back again", I don't see why the other couldn't. :shrug:

Well, respectfully, I am not getting the gist of your argument. I mean, even if Snape was the saintly angel of Hogwarts, and everyone that knew him was mistaken about him (Lily, Sirius, Lupin, James, Mulciber, Avery, Lucius, et. al.) - and all the canon speaking of his youthful dark arts activities (including JKR saying exactly that "if he hadn't been so fascinated with dark acts and friends") - even if somehow all of that is the case, Snape still ended up "walking the light path" [sic] right into Voldemort's camp of his own free will. If it makes people happy to think that he was innocent until his feet crossed the threshhold, that is fine. I personally feel that JKR showed Snape was up to his ears in the dark arts, prejudiced, using dark curses and dismissive of the notion that there was anything wrong with dark magic - while at Hogwarts and some of it beginning at a very young age, pre-Hogwarts. He was, as Lily put it, on his way to joining Voldemort with his friends at 16, having embraced the DE view, and he practiced mutual aggression against his enemies, imo. So that is how I see it, I respect the fact that others view the canon distinctly.

*sighs* Marcus, I agree that he's all that. I just don't agree that he's inherently evil and irredeemable, since we see other characters act in a similar way and no one bats an eyelash.

There's a reason he turned to dark magic and, while I agree that a tougher man might have relinquished the opportunity and simply bore with the fact that he can't win all his battles, I can't pretend I don't see it or understand it.

"The gist", as you put it, is this: given a different set of circumstances, Snape's race might have taken a different course - just like Black's did.

*sighs* Marcus, I agree that he's all that. I just don't agree that he's inherently evil and irredeemable, since we see other characters act in a similar way and no one bats an eyelash.

There's a reason he turned to dark magic and, while I agree that a tougher man might have relinquished the opportunity and simply bore with the fact that he can't win all his battles, I can't pretend I don't see it or understand it.

"The gist", as you put it, is this: given a different set of circumstances, Snape's race might have taken a different course - just like Black's did.

Your point is that characters could have been written distinctly? I agree. Snape could have been characterized like many other characters, Black, Lupin, Dumbledore or some other character all together and provided with entirely different circumstances. He could have been a Squib and taken over Filch's role. But what we got is what we have, so again, I am not sure of your point. In the circumstances Snape was in, he made the choices he did and more's the pity, but the race he chose to run was the one we saw in canon.

I guess I don't understand because this stands for all characters. Voldemort could have had different circumstances and choices given by JKR and turned out to be the turnaround hero. JKR could have made James leave his wife to deal with Voldy and hung out around the clock at the local bar drinking. She could have had Molly stand and cheer Ginny and Hermione on as they struggled to deal with Bella. But we did get those stories. :lol:.

Your point is that characters could have been written distinctly?

No, my point is that - written as he was, with the same character traits but with a different chronology - this particular character could have ended up less non grata.

JKR: Well, I believe that almost anyone can redeem themselves. However, in some cases, as we know from reality - if a psychologist were ever able to get Voldemort in a room, tape him down, take his wand away, I think he would be classified as a psychopath.

I'm sure Jo'd tell us if she considered Snape to be in the same league with Voldy...

I'm sure Jo'd tell us if she considered Snape to be in the same league with Voldy...

She in fact suggests an alternative universe scenario for him in which Lily comes to love him. :)

No, my point is that - written as he was, with the same character traits but with a different chronology - this particular character could have ended up less non grata.

JKR: Well, I believe that almost anyone can redeem themselves. However, in some cases, as we know from reality - if a psychologist were ever able to get Voldemort in a room, tape him down, take his wand away, I think he would be classified as a psychopath.

I'm sure Jo'd tell us if she considered Snape to be in the same league with Voldy...

Well yeah, I didn't mean Snape was like Voldy. Just that Voldy's life could have been written differently. I believe JKR feels that Snape could redeem himself and did. I just beg to differ. She and I may have a different idea of what redemption entails. I require recognition, remorse and repentance for those things I feel require it and I didn't get that from Snape. JKR redeemed various individuals in different ways. Some of them worked for me. But Snape's failed. I don't buy coattail redemptions and that is how I saw Snape's.

I require recognition, remorse and repentance for those things I feel require it and I didn't get that from Snape.

Recognition :: I think Snape got that from Harry, and because of Harry, I would also presume he got it from the WW as well.

Remorse :: He got the regognition from Harry, because Harry believed Snape's remorse to be true IMO. Otherwise, I don't think Harry would have recognised Snape as the bravest man he knew nor would he name his son after Snape. As someone (I forget who) wrote, it was the son who had Lily's green eyes, waho was named Severus.

Repentence :: I saw Snape's repentence in "Anything"; he lack of defence or justification for Dumbledore's disgust plus his remorse for his actions, for which he wanted to die, when he heard that Lily had. And, then, believing Dumbledore's words that voldmeort would come back, Snape from that moment started working with Dumbledore. I think Snape never felt absolved of his guilt, he simply worked; worked to do anything Dumbeldore asked of him, until he died and could work no more.

Recognition :: I think Snape got that from Harry, and because of Harry, I would also presume he got it from the WW as well.

Remorse :: He got the regognition from Harry, because Harry believed Snape's remorse to be true IMO. Otherwise, I don't think Harry would have recognised Snape as the bravest man he knew nor would he name his son after Snape. As someone (I forget who) wrote, it was the son who had Lily's green eyes, waho was named Severus.

Repentence :: I saw Snape's repentence in "Anything"; he lack of defence or justification for Dumbledore's disgust plus his remorse for his actions, for which he wanted to die, when he heard that Lily had. And, then, believing Dumbledore's words that voldmeort would come back, Snape from that moment started working with Dumbledore. I think Snape never felt absolved of his guilt, he simply worked; worked to do anything Dumbeldore asked of him, until he died and could work no more.

Yeah, as I say, I realize some people felt that way. It just didn't work for me. I didn't mean Harry's recognition of Snape, but Snape's recognition of his wrongs. And I meant Snape's remorse, which Harry could not express and Snape's repentence, same thing, imo. All the dependence on Harry, who says nothing of these things, imo, just makes it seems like Snape's redemption hangs on Harry's coattails - and Harry didn't come through. So the whole scenario didn't work. But I did see that Snape was not on Voldy's side throughout the series- something else JKR wished to show at the end of DH, but that I got nearly right away. So I thought she was successful in showing that aspect of the characterization.

Snape as a death eater, wronged Harry, by taking the Prophecy to Voldemort, and, others who he may have harmed while he was a DE(which we don't know anything about, except that he was a death eater before he turned).

Harry accepted his remorse and repentance, like I wrote above and Snape's working for the Order, for the Light in order to bring down Voldemort, for whom he may have harmed others, were his remorse, repentance for his time as a death eater IMO.

He would have had to do anything Voldemort asked him to as a DE and when he turned he voluntarily chose to do anything against Voldemort and he did so, even killed Dumbledore in his work.

While the part of his remorse for Lily was accepted by Harry, the other part where he tells Phineas "that he should not call Hermione a mudblood"a and that "he watches only those he cannot save, die" I feel says about the road he had travelled from the days he was a DE to the man he was, when he died IMO.

Yeah, as I say, I realise some people felt that way. It just didn't work for me. I didn't mean Harry's recognition of Snape, but Snape's recognition of his wrongs. And I meant Snape's remorse, which Harry could not express and Snape's repentance, same thing, imo.

I think Snape's superiority, if I may say so, (I don't know how else to express it), is because Snape did not recognise his remorse or repentance. He never asks for any, he also never felt, he deserved any IMO. It is Harry, Dumbledore and perhaps others (once they knew about Snape's contribution) who are recognising Snape's remorse and repentance. Just like Snape never justifies his mistakes, I think Snape also never recognises his remorse, for I think that Snape felt that no among of guilt, remorse or repentance would be able to equate what he recognised as his greatest mistake, for which he came running to Dumbledore and wished to die, when he heard that the Potters were betrayed IMO.

Dumbledore talks in HBP about the remorse he knew Snape felt; Harry named his son and talked of Snape as the bravest man he ever knew, maybe the WW also recognised Snape's contributions which helped them in the war.

But Snape himself, I think, never recognised it, because I think no action, no guilt, no feeling would ever make him feel that he had done enough to warrant repentance IMO. Just like Snape never justifies becoming a DE. He always looks at that part as a mistake he made and likewise I think as far as Snape was concerned there would be no repentance from him for himself, for I think he felt he did not deserve it.

I think Snape's superiority, if I may say so, (I don't know how else to express it), is because Snape did not recognise his remorse or repentance. He never asks for any, he also never felt, he deserved any IMO. It is Harry, Dumbledore and perhaps others (once they knew about Snape's contribution) who are recognising Snape's remorse and repentance. Just like Snape never justifies his mistakes, I think Snape also never recognises his remorse, for I think that Snape felt that no among of guilt, remorse or repentance would be able to equate what he recognised as his greatest mistake, for which he came running to Dumbledore and wished to die, when he heard that the Potters were betrayed IMO.

Well I perhaps would have accepted that if JKR hadn't had Snape casting blame at everyone else, mistreating the kids and others and generally showing what I felt was callous disrepect for those he'd helped to kill. He had no problem showing those things. So I feel like Harry did about Voldemort, Snape needed to show a little remorse. He did so for Lily, but only at first, imo. If I stretch things to the limit, then I would say he showed some for Lupin too. But that is it as I recall.

I think Snape at least tried to show some concern for Draco when Lucius was sent to Azkaban - but Snape behaved in an absolutely horrible manner toward Harry in the wake of Sirius' death. So to me, Snape had the potential.

Well I perhaps would have accepted that if JKR hadn't had Snape casting blame at everyone else, mistreating the kids and others and generally showing what I felt was callous disrepect for those he'd helped to kill.

Can you please provide canon, where Snape blamed everyone else for his mistakes?

I think just because a person is dead, does not automatically make him a good, bad or evil person. The WW had nothing good to say about Voldmeort after he died; Molly killed Bellatrix and I doubt she would have anything good to say about her.

Snape, if he said something harsh about anyone he helped harm or kill, I'm sure it's because he never saw anything good about them. His remorse was for his actions which killed/harmed another not for liking those in whose death he had a part. Their death does not automatically make them good persons in Snape's eyes and neither does Snape need to make a saint of those he hated, because he had a part in their death.

Repentence for Snape IMO is for Snape's actions, for the way he chose wrongly and made mistakes which harmed not only him, but others as well, not to like people he despised IMO. I don't think he needs to like people who he harmed, what I think he needed to do was to make sure he would never go on the path, where he would harm others. That I believe Snape did.

Can you please provide canon, where Snape blamed everyone else for his mistakes?

He tried to blame Dumbledore in DH memories, he tried to blame Sirius (in place of Peter) and James (and Lily by association) in the shack, he blamed Voldemort, but all the while he never accepted the fact that he was the primary person to be blamed because if he'd not delivered the prophecy to Voldemort, it would not have happened at all, imo.

I think just because a person is dead, does not automatically make him a good, bad or evil person. The WW had nothing good to say about Voldmeort after he died; Molly killed Bellatrix and I doubt she would have anything good to say about her.

Snape, if he said something harsh about anyone he helped harm or kill, I'm sure it's because he never saw anything good about them. His remorse was for his actions which killed/harmed another not for liking those in whose death he had a part. Their death does not automatically make them good persons in Snape's eyes and neither does Snape need to make a saint of those he hated, because he had a part in their death.

But that is not true, imo. Unless you feel Snape believed that defying Voldemort and fighting in the Order was not doing something good. Considering he joined the Order himself and defied Voldemort, I would have to disagree with your view. I believe there are other things he knew were good too, but listing them is immaterial because I feel the two I gave are enough to show that the problem wasn't that Snape "never saw anything good".

Repentence for Snape IMO is for Snape's actions, for the way he chose wrongly and made mistakes which harmed not only him, but others as well, not to like people he despised IMO. I don't think he needs to like people who he harmed, what I think he needed to do was to make sure he would never go on the path, where he would harm others. That I believe Snape did.

Well I respect your view. But for me, Snape did other "actions" that harmed others and he never repented for them, imo. He doesn't have to like anyone, I agree. But disrespecting the dead, to me personally, shows a clear lack of remorse. Disrespecting the living remainder of those you helped to kill is another sign of lack of remorse. That is why I don't feel Snape's remorse for his part in killing Lily was complete either. I don't feel he could disrespect her if he truly felt remorse for what he'd done. In my judgment, he selfishly felt he did feel remorse, but it was mainly for his own loss he'd built up in his head (because in truth, he had nothing to lose). Thus, he did not have proper remorse and could disrespect Lily right along with her husband for whom he had little to none, imo. Additionally, he never had any remorse for any of that disrespect and negative treatment he doled out toward Harry, imo. And on top of all of that, he never had any remorse for bullying the children in his care either, imo. Nor did I see any remorse for all of the nameless and faceless people he helped to kill while he was a DE, imo, so I don't believe he had proper remorse for that either. Snape changed sides, but never learned how to feel proper remorse, only a selfish, selective sort, imo. So that was not good enough for me. Harry forgave and moved on, leaving all that stuff behind. However, I can't join him in that journey. So this is likely something you and I would just have to agree to disagree on. :)

He tried to blame Dumbledore in DH memories, he tried to blame Sirius (in place of Peter) and James (and Lily by association) in the shack, he blamed Voldemort, but all the while he never accepted the fact that he was the primary person to be blamed because if he'd not carried the prophecy, it would not have happened at all, imo.

You mean Snape blamed all these people for his mistakes? I don't think so (I also don't remember this from canon); Dumbledore he questioned because Dumbledore suddenly told him that Harry had to die; until POA, Snape thought Sirius was a traitor, like every other person in the WW and I don't remember what he said about James and Lily (sorry!). None of these people he blamed for the Potters deaths neither did he call them the reason why he became a DE in the first place and neither did he blame any of these people for any action of his as a DE, which includes handing over the Prophecy, on which I have posted with canon quotes about how Dumbledore was aware IMO that Snape was walking away with the Prophecy, in the Dumbledore thread.

Trelawney was in her room up the stairs and Snape was at the door trying to eavesdrop, before being caught by Aberforth.

Snape was culpable, culpable because he had information which could kill a family and he still went on and gave it to Voldemort.

But was he the primary person to be blamed; after re-reading the HBP recently I am beginning to doubt it.

But that is not true, imo. Unless you feel Snape believed that those fighting in the Order were not doing something good. Considering he joined the Order himself, I would have to disagree with your view. There are other things he knew were good too, but listing them is immaterial because the one I gave is enough to show that the problem wasn't that Snape "never saw anything good".

But what you say makes me feel that one has to only fight Voldemort and not have a DE past in order to be good. Dung was never a DE and he was IMO surely not good!

A person is both good and bad depending upon whom you ask IMO. Snape could have thought the world of Lily, for certain reasons, or he could have hated her for certain other reasons, or be totally indifferent about her.

I don't think those feelings need to change, just because Lily died. Had she died because of a mistake Snape made, then I feel Snape should feel remorse or repent for his actions because of which Lily died; he need not start looking at her differently, on the contrary, I think he has to start looking at himself differently and try to change.

Snape repents for actions which harmed, not for his feelings, because I think he can hate, love or like anyone he wishes to and he would love or hate anyone, based upon his interaction with them. I don't think Snape is required to like anyone just because they died or because they fought in the Order.

You mean Snape blamed all these people for his mistakes? I don't think so (I also don't remember this from canon); Dumbledore he questioned because Dumbledore suddenly told him that Harry had to die; until POA, Snape thought Sirius was a traitor, like every other person in the WW and I don't remember what he said about James and Lily (sorry!). None of these people he blamed for the Potters deaths neither did he call them the reason why he became a DE in the first place and neither did he blame any of these people for any action of his as a DE, which includes handing over the Prophecy, on which I have posted with canon quotes about how Dumbledore was aware IMO that Snape was walking away with the Prophecy, in the Dumbledore thread.

Trelawney was in her room up the stairs and Snape was at the door trying to eavesdrop, before being caught by Aberforth.

Snape was culpable, culpable because he had information which could kill a family and he still went on and gave it to Voldemort.

But was he the primary person to be blamed; after re-reading the HBP recently I am beginning to doubt it.

I respect your view, and it would be an intriguing idea of the concept wasn't so familiar. However, unless someone was holding a gun to Snape's head and made him deilver the prophecy to Voldemort, I am not certain who else could possibly be blamed except Snape. Dumbledore had his probelms, but being a dark lord wasn't one of them, imo.

But what you say makes me feel that one has to only fight Voldemort and not have a DE past in order to be good. Dung was never a DE and he was IMO surely not good!

No, you claimed Snape "he never saw anything good". I don't feel that can even be said about Mundungus. He did do some good things.

A person is both good and bad depending upon whom you ask IMO. Snape could have thought the world of Lily, for certain reasons, or he could have hated her for certain other reasons, or be totally indifferent about her.

I don't think those feelings need to change, just because Lily died. Had she died because of a mistake Snape made, then I feel Snape should feel remorse or repent for his actions because of which Lily died; he need not start looking at her differently, on the contrary, I think he has to start looking at himself differently and try to change.

Snape repents for actions which harmed, not for his feelings, because I think he can hate, love or like anyone he wishes to and he would love or hate anyone, based upon his interaction with them. I don't think Snape is required to like anyone just because they died or because they fought in the Order.

I don't think Snape changed his mind about Lily. I think his mind was always the same when it came to her. He appeared to think of her in terms of himself (his feelings for her). In my judgment, his remorse was on the same level, otherwise I don't feel he would have been able to mistreat her son. As you say, one doesn't have to like anyone - that is true and I agree. I am not saying that he had no right to have this type of feeling for Lily - he felt whatever he felt. I am just saying that the way he felt about her led him to behave in a manner that indicates he didn't have proper remorse for having played a role in her death, in my opinion.

As to your other point, I agree it is important for Snape to also look at his own behavior and he did - and he changed sides. That was good. But he never achieved proper remorse because he never fully recognized some of his wrongs, and didn't recognize others at all, imo. Hence, I feel he could not properly repent for them and in some cases, could not repent at all. This has nothing to do with whether he likes someone or not. It only concerns Snape and his behaving in an arrogant manner, unwilling to accept the full extent of his wrongful behavior, imo.

I respect your view, and it would be an intriguing idea of the concept wasn't so familiar. However, unless someone was holding a gun to Snape's head and made him deilver the prophecy to Voldemort, I am not certain who else could possibly be blamed except Snape. Dumbledore had his probelms, but being a dark lord wasn't one of them, imo.

While I don't think anyone held a gun to Snape's head, I do think Dumbeldore allowed Snape to walk away with the Prophecy. Which Snape went and gave Voldemort. :)

No, you claimed Snape "he never saw anything good". I don't feel that can even be said about Mundungus. He did do some good things.

That depends on who was talking about Dung. If it was some one who felt Dung did good things, then they would like him, appreciate him, if they were cheated by Dung or if Dung stole from them, I don't think those people would have anything good to say about Dung.

I think it's the same with Snape and indeed others. Snape would like or hate or be indifferent or even respect a person because of his interactions with that person. If Snape's interaction with a person was poor; then naturally Snape would have only negative things to say about that person, even if he died. His death would not suddenly change Snape's poor relationship into a better one IMO.

I think it's the same with Snape and indeed others. Snape would like or hate or be indifferent or even respect a person because of his interactions with that person. If Snape's interaction with a person was poor; then naturally Snape would have only negative things to say about that person, even if he died. His death would not suddenly change Snape's poor relationship into a better one IMO.

Sure, but if you helped to kill the person and go on to aggressively degrade them afterward (or degrade their child that they loved), it is like helping to kill them wasn't enough revenge, and so the person resorts to more petty revenge. Or in the case where they didn't want revenge - their resorting to this type of activity still says to me that they do not feel the proper remorse. If Snape had sorrow for his act (meaning, he wished he had not gone that far and gotten revenge even incidentally through his action - or wished he hadn't done it because he was mortified by the outcome), then to me, they would not want more revenge, they would wish to repent for their wrong and feel deep remorse about it every time they thought about that person. Again, I understand you see this distinctly and I feel we'd have to just agree to disagree.

If Snape had sorrow for his act (meaning, he wished he had not gone that far and gotten revenge even incidentally through his action - or wished he hadn't done it because he was mortified by the outcome), then to me, they would not want more revenge, they would wish to repent for their wrong and feel deep remorse about it every time they thought about that person. Again, I understand you see this distinctly and I feel we'd have to just agree to disagree.

Snape did feel remorse for their deaths, which he played a part in, not for disliking them or loving them IMO. And I feel he need not feel remorse for his feelings towards them; he had those feelings because of his interactions with them over the years. I don't think that's wrong.

He tried to blame Dumbledore in DH memories, he tried to blame Sirius (in place of Peter) and James (and Lily by association) in the shack, he blamed Voldemort, but all the while he never accepted the fact that he was the primary person to be blamed because if he'd not delivered the prophecy to Voldemort, it would not have happened at all, imo.
Snape is most certainly not the primary person responsible for Lily and James being murdered. That rests entirely with their murderer - Voldemort. In RL it would be Voldemort who would have been wanted for their murders and Voldemort who would have stood trial for their murders had he been caught. The secondary person responsible for their murders is Peter Pettigrew who was their friend but betrayed them to Voldemort knowing that Voldemort would murder them. Snape holds only the tertiary position in the "order of responsibility". He gave the prophecy to Voldemort. However he did then attempt to undo the damage he had done by going to Dumbledore and offering to do anything in return for Dumbledore's protection for the family. Not only did he regret his decision to give Voldemort the prophecy but he did everything in his power to ensure that the Potters remained alive.

But disrespecting the dead, to me personally, shows a clear lack of remorse. Disrespecting the living remainder of those you helped to kill is another sign of lack of remorse.FirstlyI'm not entirely sure that Snape disrespected the dead. What he told Harry about his father was unpleasant but it was true. It was not a nice thing to do but I would not say it was disrespectful and I certainly do not think it shows a lack of remorse. James was still the same person regardless of whether or not Snape had a hand in his death. James treated Severus appalingly, and that didn't just go away when James died. Severus hated James and the feeling was mutual. Why should he pretend that it was any different? Secondly I don't see why Snape disrespecting Harry shows a lack of remorse. In fact I would say that the idea that he had to show Harry respect because he influenced events that led to his parent's murder as a bit warped. If Severus is to show Harry respect it should be for Harry's sake not someone else's.

I think it's the same with Snape and indeed others. Snape would like or hate or be indifferent or even respect a person because of his interactions with that person. If Snape's interaction with a person was poor; then naturally Snape would have only negative things to say about that person, even if he died. His death would not suddenly change Snape's poor relationship into a better one IMO. :agree: Exactly!

Sure, but if you helped to kill the person and go on to aggressively degrade them afterward (or degrade their child that they loved), it is like helping to kill them wasn't enough revenge, and so the person resorts to more petty revenge. Or in the case where they didn't want revenge - their resorting to this type of activity still says to me that they do not feel the proper remorse. If Snape had sorrow for his act (meaning, he wished he had not gone that far and gotten revenge even incidentally through his action - or wished he hadn't done it because he was mortified by the outcome), then to me, they would not want more revenge, they would wish to repent for their wrong and feel deep remorse about it every time they thought about that person. Again, I understand you see this distinctly and I feel we'd have to just agree to disagree.
I am sorry wick but nowhere is it even hinted that Snape got James killed as revenge. That is just completely incorrect. When Snape delivered the prophecy he did not know it was about the Potters - when he did know it was about the Potters he did everything in his power to keep them alive! There is no revenge involved in this at all. Just because something you do accidentally leads to the death of someone you do not like does not mean that it is revenge. I think this is a very important point.


Snape did feel remorse for their deaths, which he played a part in, not for disliking them or loving them IMO. And I feel he need not feel remorse for his feelings towards them; he had those feelings because of his interactions with them over the years. I don't think that's wrong.
Precisely! You don't start liking someone just because they are dead! And just because you dislike someone - or even hate them - does not mean you are glad that they are dead.

Snape is most certainly not the primary person responsible for Lily and James being murdered. That rests entirely with their murderer - Voldemort. In RL it would be Voldemort who would have been wanted for their murders and Voldemort who would have stood trial for their murders had he been caught. The secondary person responsible for their murders is Peter Pettigrew who was their friend but betrayed them to Voldemort knowing that Voldemort would murder them. Snape holds only the tertiary position in the "order of responsibility". He gave the prophecy to Voldemort. However he did then attempt to undo the damage he had done by going to Dumbledore and offering to do anything in return for Dumbledore's protection for the family. Not only did he regret his decision to give Voldemort the prophecy but he did everything in his power to ensure that the Potters remained alive.

Yes, Snape did try to help stop the process, but for purely selfish reasons, which rather cuts down on the benevolence of his gesture, imo. However, if Snape had never delivered the prophecy, Voldemort and Peter could not have acted on the prophecy. Hence, Snape got the ball rolling and was primarily responsible for *some family and their child* being targeted by Voldemort for death - which was Snape's goal and JKR said he would not have cared if Voldy hadn't targeted Lily.

FirstlyI'm not entirely sure that Snape disrespected the dead. What he told Harry about his father was unpleasant but it was true. It was not a nice thing to do but I would not say it was disrespectful and I certainly do not think it shows a lack of remorse. James was still the same person regardless of whether or not Snape had a hand in his death. James treated Severus appalingly, and that didn't just go away when James died. Severus hated James and the feeling was mutual. Why should he pretend that it was any different? Secondly I don't see why Snape disrespecting Harry shows a lack of remorse. In fact I would say that the idea that he had to show Harry respect because he influenced events that led to his parent's murder as a bit warped. If Severus is to show Harry respect it should be for Harry's sake not someone else's.

Well perhaps you and I merely see it distinctly. I considered Snape giving his opinion (as if it were fact) that James was an attempted murderer and calling him filthy - all of this before his son, without anyone to defend on James behalf - disrespectful. I don't feel that someone who felt remorse for what their act rendered, would do such a thing. I also feel Snape was being disrespectful to Lily - and again, she was in the afterworld or whatever, so she is not there in person to be hurt. However, Snape claims to have these deep emotions for her and yet he disrespects her by mistreating her son and badmouthing her husband before him. So to me, it showed disrespect for Lily, her life and that which she love. Snape claimed to have emotions for her, but when I consider how he behaved, it is obvious to me that his love was focused inwardly (what feelings the thought of Lily engendered in him) imo - rather than actually loving the woman she was (which included being a wife and mother, a loving person, etc.) Snape can love however he wants, but I can't use his emotions to say that he felt proper remorse for his act that ended in her death because I feel that if he were thinking in terms of Lily's loss of life, and all it meant (not just for him, but for her and everyone who knew her) I feel that would have prohibited him from conducting himself in the manner he did.

Everyone sees this distinctly, but in the same way I feel Voldemort was being disrepectful when he called Lily a Mudblood and told Harry that he'd stamped her out like a cockroach, Snape was equally disrespectful of Harry's dad. And moreso, because Snape lied - generally by not disclosing the fact that he was only telling part of a story, or his view - but also straight forward lying also which canon revealed, imo. But of course these two men were purportedly on opposite sides when it came to good and evil - but things like that make me question that fact. It is not just respect for a particular person, but a dead person and the living who loved them. It is like if someone found out about Snape's emotions for Lily and spent 7 years degrading Lily in front of him, calling her prudish, self righteous, filthy and a dirty little Mudblood - plus, after her friendship with Snape ended, she'd become a wild, alcoholic no good so and so - etc. I feel Snape would be hurt by that type of thing and whoever did it to him would be completely disrespectful of Lily who'd passed away and could not defend herself, plus disrespectful of Snape's feelings.

I am sorry wick but nowhere is it even hinted that Snape got James killed as revenge. That is just completely incorrect. When Snape delivered the prophecy he did not know it was about the Potters - when he did know it was about the Potters he did everything in his power to keep them alive! There is no revenge involved in this at all. Just because something you do accidentally leads to the death of someone you do not like does not mean that it is revenge. I think this is a very important point.

No worries, I agree with you. That is not what I meant. The whole transference and treatment of Harry was the revenge - but not just for childhood wrongs, but also out of feelings of jealousy. What I was trying to point out was that Snape still felt the need for revenge for these things (childhood wrongs, jealousy), but this is long after having a hand in killing the person he was jealous of and angry with. I feel that if Snape had proper remorse for his act that ended up killing this person (even incidentally), then he would not still be carrying around that need for revenge.

Snape would understand through his true remorse that his act had won him the greatest of all revenge. Revenge that he had not even planned or wanted at he time. It was a gift, but a very sour gift through the eyes of remorse because it comes down to this question: if Snape could undo his act completely (the Potters come back to life) in exchange for giving up the revenge he is carrying around in his heart, would he do it? Could he do it?

Well the same idea holds true in the reality of Snape's life in the canon, imo. when his act caused death, remorse should result, and the need for revenge should cease. But if the remorse is improper - incomplete - then the need for revenge (personal retribution for instilling jealousy and anger) carries on. So that is how I see it. :)

Do you interpret this scene differently after DH? Yes. If I am correct, this encounter/confrontation happened just after his conversation with Dumbledore during the Yule Ball. He tells Dumbledore that he believed Kakarov was getting antsy and would probably flee at a moment's notice. In "The Prince's Tale" we see Snape telling Dumbledore that he is not going to run away with his tail between his legs and Dumbledore tells him he is by no means a Coward. This is hard to put into words, but I'll do my best. I think Snape was so used to being told how disgusting he was, that a pat-on-the-back or any "atta boy" encouragement was foreign, embarrassing and maybe offensive. I think it made him feel more responsible for his actions. As a result, he knew he couldn't get away with hiding behind this "greasy git" mask he presented to the World. Where as most people would expect Snape to be mean and nasty, Dumbledore knew that deep down, Severus has a conscience. As a result, Snape was responsible for his actions and didn't get away with using excuses. What do you think was Snape's main motivation in this scene? Anger! In Snape's eye, Harry was Dumbledore's little Golden Boy. From Snape's P.O.V, in Dumbledore's eyes, Harry could do no wrong. If he did do something wrong, Dumbledore had some excuse or explanation for him. In Snape's eyes, that was just plain wrong. Also, I think Snape felt like he was shunted aside for Harry's benefit. if he had something important to tell Albus and Harry arrived, Harry was the one who got the attention and Snape was pushed so Harry could get attention. I also think Snape may have been on his way to see Dumbledore about something important. Once again, Harry comes skipping along like Lassie to report some "silly" incident that could have waited until morning. However, once again, Dumbledore came to his rescue, and taught him that he didn't have to wait patiently. I think Snape believed that Harry was given preferential treatment. If it was Draco Malfoy who came to report the same thing, Snape maybe thought Dumbledore would tell him to wait his turn, or not to interrupt. So in some way, Snape maybe felt he was teaching Harry that just because he was the "Boy Who Lived" didn't give him the green light to over step his boundries. Do you think that Snape was really enjoying the situation, as Harry surmised? Yes!! Making Harry sweat, beg to be heard was his own way of getting vengeance against James. Because I think on some level Snape knew he could get away with "picking on" Harry, that Albus would never drag him over the rails. Because I think he knew in Dumbledore's eyes, this was nothing more than some Childish mission for revenge.
Old and new study questions:
Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be? That we got to see his caring side earlier. I kind of wish we got to see this secret side of Snape.
What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH? I would like to think he and Harry would have eventually made some sort of amends. Not becoming Friends, but maybe coming to an understanding. Other than that, I think he may have gone into retirement and gone into hiding to avoid the spotlight.
Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews? Yes, absolutely!
Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? On some levels yes, in other ways, no. Would he have turned to the good side in that case? I think he was always good, just misguided. So I believe he would have become a member of The Order of the Phoenix. However, I still think it took this earth shattering experience for him to finally realize that his actions had a consequence and he couldn't always trust the word of someone. I think it took Lily's death for him to realize where his life was headed if he stayed with Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Even if he wasn't a full fledged Death Eater and was second guessing his decisions, I think he was easily swayed through coersion.
Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius. It made his actions braver.
Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater? He was young, lonely, angry and very vulnerable to manipulation from someone with ulterior motives. Snape was desperate for acceptance, vengeance and power. So if Voldemort knew this, he probably slithered in and used his sly skills to entice Snape to joining their "Family". Once Snape was in and did start to second guess his decision, it was too late. He probably saw what happened to stragglers and "traitors", so he probably stayed out of fear of retribution and death.
How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series? Again, I can understand, but at the same time, it doesn't excuse his behavior.
What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy? Gutsy and brave.
What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character? Man that was gut wrenching. I never saw that coming--his crying and sounding like a wounded animal. It's clear he lived with survivor's guilt. I think he never got over the feeling that he wished he was dead.
What do you think are Snape's major strengths? Loyalty: He was extremely loyal to Lily--even 16 years after her death, he still held onto his promise to her. He was also loyal to Dumbledore. He was also extremely brave. What are his major flaws? Like a Chid/Teenager, he can never resist getting back at someone. He holds grudges and he hides behind a mask that screams "get the heck away from me".
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry? Yes. He couldn't help but not to come to care about Harry. He is Lily's Son, afterall.
What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him? He was a substitute Father Figure to Snape. He gave him the encouragement and support he desperately needed and never got as a Child.
Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Yes. Because he taught people that you shouldn't judge others by the house they are sorted into. He also dispelled the rumour that most Dark Wizards came from Slytherin House. Plus, I think he was somewhat safe in Slytherin. If he had been sorted into another house, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb and been the target of bullying. This could have made him another person like Tom Riddle. Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere? I'm not 100% sure. If he had had some sort of Mentor who showed him the ropes, made him see that he had truly frightening consequences for any negative actions, offered him moral support, then maybe. Though at the same time, I think he was the type of kid who thought he was right, everyone else was wrong, anyone who tried to be Friendly was only making fun of him, etc. So again, if he had been sorted into Ravenclaw, I think he might have been the odd kid out. I honestly believe he was regarded as the kid who nobody socialized with because it would be fatal to their social life and safety at the school. Plus, I think he taught everyone a huge lesson that not every Dark Wizard came from Slytherin. If he had been in another house, I don't think the lesson would have had as huge an impact as it did.
There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? The fact he put his life on the line every time he spied for Dumbledore. His deceit would have eventually caught up with him. He knew one day he would probably be caught in a lie or withholding information from Voldemort. A Person can only lie for a certain period before they slip, then everything unravels. Plus, the other Death Eaters hated Severus for different reasons. He was Voldemort's number One in command. I still believe he knew information the others, including Bellatrix didn't know. Some of the Death Eaters feared Snape and hated him for his power and power. So, IMHO, it was only a matter of time before one of them, especially Bellatrix would try to catch him in a lie, corner him, etc. He also risked his life for the Child who could have been his. He had to look at Harry, a living, breathing, walking, talking reminder of the man who caused him so much grief as a Child, he thought he was doing this all for nothing (besides his undying love for Lily) in that Harry would probably never thank him. Ok, I know he didn't want the World, especially Harry to know the real Severus Snape, but at the same time, I think deep down he wanted to be treated like everyone else, not to be seen as some sort of freak. In what sense is he a hero? That he died before he got the chance to see himself vindicated. That he faced Voldemort "alone" and didn't try to defend himself. That he willingly(maybe not "Hey, great I get to spend time with the Dark Lord alone in the shrieking shack") faced death. Even though in some way I think it was his personal version of a reprieve. But the biggest think which I think makes/made (I still can't say "made") him a hero is the lesson he would have taught others. The example he would have set to current and future Slytherin Students and Hogwarts' Students alike.

However, if Snape had never delivered the prophecy, Voldemort and Peter could not have acted on the prophecy. Hence, Snape got the ball rolling and was primarily responsible for *some family and their child* being targeted by Voldemort for death - which was Snape's goal and JKR said he would not have cared if Voldy hadn't targeted Lily.
But that doesn't change the facts that it was Voldemort who actually murdered them. He didn't tell Voldemort to murder them, that was Voldemort's choice and nobody else's. And regardless of his motivation he was prepared to do anything to save the Potters. As far as I am concerned that sentence alone eradicates practically all responsibilty and shows the depth of his remorse. Snape also did not tell Pettigrew to betray the Potters. Once Dumbledore knew the Potters were specifically targeted and the fidelus charm was used the Potters were safe - safe as long as their secret keeper could be trusted, which sadly he couldn't. If Peter had not betrayed them, if Sirius HAD been the secret keeper, then the Potters would have been alive and well, and waving Harry off from platform 9 and 3/4. As it was Severus did everything in his power to prevent the Potters from being killed - hence his anger and loathing of Sirius in the shrieking shack. As far as Severus was concerned Sirius was the man who betrayed Lily to her death and undid all of his hard and dangerous work to save them.


Well perhaps you and I merely see it distinctly. I considered Snape giving his opinion (as if it were fact) that James was an attempted murderer and calling him filthy - all of this before his son, without anyone to defend on James behalf - disrespectful. I don't feel that someone who felt remorse for what their act rendered, would do such a thing.Emotions are never that straight forward. His behaviour does not mean that he did not feel remorse, it means he was conflicted, overwhemed with guilt and frustration, and because of his upbringing was not able to properly process his emotions.

Snape can love however he wants, but I can't use his emotions to say that he felt proper remorse for his act that ended in her death because I feel that if he were thinking in terms of Lily's loss of life, and all it meant (not just for him, but for her and everyone who knew her) I feel that would have prohibited him from conducting himself in the manner he did.Again emotions are never that straight forward - if they were there would be no need for marriage counselling and no need for divorce! People love, but everyone has emotional baggage which prevents them from loving perfectly. As such we all do things that contradict the very meaning of love; that does not mean we do not love - it means we are complicated and have emotional baggage, and the more emotional baggage we have the more complicated the relationship between our emotions and our behaviour becomes. As soon as you start throwing around the idea "If you loved me you would/wouldn't do that" then you are getting into the very dangerous territory of emotional blackmail.

Snape should not have said anything to Harry about his father, but Harry did learn some very valuable lessons about his father and the man his father really was from Snape. Moreover I do not see that Snape saying the things he said about James means he felt no remorse. The two things are not contradictory.


Snape would understand through his true remorse that his act had won him the greatest of all revenge. Revenge that he had not even planned or wanted at he time. It was a gift, but a very sour gift through the eyes of remorse because it comes down to this question: if Snape could undo his act completely (the Potters come back to life) in exchange for giving up the revenge he is carrying around in his heart, would he do it? Could he do it?

Well the same idea holds true in the reality of Snape's life in the canon, imo. when his act caused death, remorse should result, and the need for revenge should cease. But if the remorse is improper - incomplete - then the need for revenge (personal retribution for instilling jealousy and anger) carries on. So that is how I see it.
:no: Snape did not want the Potters dead so I do not see that their deaths were "Snape's revenge" in any way, shape or form. You seem to be suggesting that because Severus didn't like James he wanted him dead, and this is quite plainly not true. In fact I think that Snape was very bitter that James had died because it robbed Severus of the chance to "get even" and effectively "get his revenge". I repeat he didn't want James dead - he wanted James humbled, and James dying denied him the chance to see James humbled, and more importantly for him to see James see him suceed. I absolutely disagree that his remorse for the death of the Potters would cause the need for revenge to cease. Of course it would have been better had Severus ceased to desire revenge - better above all for him because through forgiving James for the wrongs James did him, he could then have forgiven himself for what happened to the Potters and then he would have found peace. As it was Severus was his own worst enemy.

Emotions are never that straight forward. His behaviour does not mean that he did not feel remorse, it means he was conflicted, overwhemed with guilt and frustration, and because of his upbringing was not able to properly process his emotions.

Well while those may have been the reasons he was unale to properly process his emotions, to me, then, those would also the reasons he could not properly process the idea of remorse. Hence, he could not properly repent and was not properly redeemed. That is what I meant by "proper remorse". So I respect your view on this, but I just cannot see it in a way that could include remorse.

Again emotions are never that straight forward - if they were there would be no need for marriage counselling and no need for divorce! People love, but everyone has emotional baggage which prevents them from loving perfectly. As such we all do things that contradict the very meaning of love; that does not mean we do not love - it means we are complicated and have emotional baggage, and the more emotional baggage we have the more complicated the relationship between our emotions and our behaviour becomes. As soon as you start throwing around the idea "If you loved me you would/wouldn't do that" then you are getting into the very dangerous territory of emotional blackmail.

Perhaps, but you know what? I am no longer willing to accept these shady versions of love. I am very happy to respect other people's right to accept them, but I refuse to do so any longer. Love doesn't hurt and shame, maim and disregard on a constant basis. Psychoanalysis aside, this behavior is much closer to hate than love to me. I respect the fact that people find a "thin line between love and hate" also. But you know what, I don't accept that any longer either. The line is broad - as broad as the atlantic ocean is wide. It is one thing to have "episodes", but constant behavior in this regard is simply not love in my newly established opinion. I think we'd probably have to agree to disagree on this because my view takes me even further away from the more moderate position I used to hold on this issue. It wasn't a sudden decision on my part; I recently was witness to an event in the course of my legal outreach program which caused me to make this determination. But it is one I am firmly attached to at this point.

Snape should not have said anything to Harry about his father, but Harry did learn some very valuable lessons about his father and the man his father really was from Snape. Moreover I do not see that Snape saying the things he said about James means he felt no remorse. The two things are not contradictory.

I don't feel Snape taught Harry any valuable lessons about his father at all. He lied, in my judgment and that is never valuable. Harry learned the only valuable lesson even remotely connected to Snape about both of his parents, when he snuck in the pensieve (wrongfully) and got the truth first hand. Every single thing that came out of Snape's mouth in that regard, to me, was either a outright lie, a partial lie (with non disclosure of the entire truth), or distorted facts and miscontructed opinions (including the way he said things or when he said things serving to inform untruthfully). The memories too were truthful, but by then, Harry had already worked it all out for himself and Snape's view meant nothing at all to him. I went through line by line on this in another thread, and I won't repeat it here, but that is my honest opinion of Snape's words.

I do respect your take on it Cathy, you know that - but I just don't agree that a person who aggressively and purposefully sets out to further harm people he has harmed in the past (Harry) and shows disrespect when he's helped end a person's earthly existence altogether (James and Lily) - can be said to have acted in a way that is compatible with remorse. I think we likely have to just agree to disagree on this.

However, if Snape had never delivered the prophecy, Voldemort and Peter could not have acted on the prophecy.

Had Dumbledore stopped Snape, Snape would have never been able to hand over the prophecy to Voldmeort and the Potters would have never been targeted for the prophecy IMO. They still could have been betrayed by Peter though.

However, Snape claims to have these deep emotions for her and yet he disrespects her by mistreating her son and badmouthing her husband before him. So to me, it showed disrespect for Lily, her life and that which she love. Snape claimed to have emotions for her, but when I consider how he behaved, it is obvious to me that his love was focused inwardly (what feelings the thought of Lily engendered in him) imo - rather than actually loving the woman she was (which included being a wife and mother, a loving person, etc.)

I don't think Snape hated Harry. I think Snape loathes James and was quite open about it. I don't think that would in anyway be disrespectful towards Lily. I, for exampl,e don't feel kindly towards my in laws and do on occassion make thaat feeling known to my husband who does love them. While I find that shocking that he can love them LOL, and tell him so, I do feel my love for my husband is in no way diminished or compromised because I have no good thoughts about his parents who he loves !

Snape hated James and loathed Sirius, but IMO that did not take away a bit from his love for Lily or, his protection and later concern for Harry IMO.

Everyone sees this distinctly, but in the same way I feel Voldemort was being disrepectful when he called Lily a Mudblood and told Harry that he'd stamped her out like a cockroach, Snape was equally disrespectful of Harry's dad.

I think the difference between Voldmeort and Snape is that Voldmeort had no personal relationship with James, while Snape had, almost for 7 years, when they interacted with each other as students. Voldmeort was disrespectful to intimidate, mock and show off his power, while Snape was expressing his feeling which in turn was born out of his interaction with James, Sirius, Remus and Peter IMO.

I think the difference between Voldmeort and Snape is that Voldmeort had no personal relationship with James, while Snape had, almost for 7 years, when they interacted with each other as students. Voldmeort was disrespectful to intimidate, mock and show off his power, while Snape was expressing his feeling which in turn was born out of his interaction with James, Sirius, Remus and Peter IMO.

So that justifies what he said to Harry about James? :huh:

Voldemort is a sociopath, which Severus is not. Leaving aside Voldemort's own sadistic taunting of Harry (and I agree that he is very different from Snape), that still doesn't excuse Snape talking to Harry about his father the way he did.

I am, however, mostly in agreement with Cathy:

:no: Snape did not want the Potters dead so I do not see that their deaths were "Snape's revenge" in any way, shape or form. You seem to be suggesting that because Severus didn't like James he wanted him dead, and this is quite plainly not true. In fact I think that Snape was very bitter that James had died because it robbed Severus of the chance to "get even" and effectively "get his revenge". I repeat he didn't want James dead - he wanted James humbled, and James dying denied him the chance to see James humbled, and more importantly for him to see James see him suceed. I absolutely disagree that his remorse for the death of the Potters would cause the need for revenge to cease. Of course it would have been better had Severus ceased to desire revenge - better above all for him because through forgiving James for the wrongs James did him, he could then have forgiven himself for what happened to the Potters and then he would have found peace. As it was Severus was his own worst enemy.

I pretty much agree with this. I don't think Snape actively wanted James dead, as much as he loathed him. However, in refusing to forgive James, even after his death, he was indeed his own worst enemy.

So that justifies what he said to Harry about James? :huh:

I am not talking about justfying anything. I just disagree that his remorse for his actions were not true because he hated James and continued to do so even after he died. The fact Snape hated a few people did not mean his remorse was false IMO.

Had Dumbledore stopped Snape, Snape would have never been able to hand over the prophecy to Voldmeort and the Potters would have never been targeted for the prophecy IMO. They still could have been betrayed by Peter though.So now it's Dumbledore's fault? :no:

This still, IMO, smacks of others being more culpable than Snape. We're told this is his greatest regret, and if that is true, that shows his culpability IMO.
I don't think Snape hated Harry. I think Snape loathes James and was quite open about it. I don't think that would in anyway be disrespectful towards Lily. I, for exampl,e don't feel kindly towards my in laws and do on occassion make thaat feeling known to my husband who does love them. While I find that shocking that he can love them LOL, and tell him so, I do feel my love for my husband is in no way diminished or compromised because I have no good thoughts about his parents who he loves ! I'm sure we all have some relative by blood or marriage we cannot stand. I don't really see how this is applicable to Harry. Snape had zero contact with this young boy. Yet from the word go Snape's enmity was present, IMO. Before Harry smarted off. You're talking about marrying into and getting to know someone's family --- and disliking them. This is completely different IMO because Snape never once takes the opportunity to get to know Harry {yes, I know this is a plot point} and he continually compares Harry not to his mother, whom we're told his nature is most like, but to the physical features of James Potter.

IMO Snape does hate Harry.
I think the difference between Voldmeort and Snape is that Voldmeort had no personal relationship with James, while Snape had, almost for 7 years, when they interacted with each other as students.Well, based upon this reasoning, Snape knew and loved Lily longer than he knew and loathed James Potter. So shouldn't the one relationship/feelings trump the other?

So now it's Dumbledore's fault? :no:

No. :)

This still, IMO, smacks of others being more culpable than Snape.

To hand over the Prophecy to Voldmeort? Snape was very much culpable. But he could have been stopped and he was not. Dumbeldore allowed him to get away IMO.

We're told this is his greatest regret, and if that is true, that shows his culpability IMO.

Sure! It was his greatest regret. And he was culpable. But Snape could have been stopped. He was not IMO.

I'm sure we all have some relative by blood or marriage we cannot stand. I don't really see how this is applicable to Harry.

I was talking about Snape's hatred for James.

The point I made with my example was that even if I spoke ill of people whom my husband loves, I do think it takes nothing away from my love for my husband. Snape's love for Lily is no in any way less just because Snape hated her husband and was quite open about it IMO.

IMO Snape does hate Harry.

I think the opposite. I think Snape cared for Harry in his own way and was very concered for the boy for his sake as well as his mother's.

Well, based upon this reasoning, Snape knew and loved Lily longer than he knew and loathed James Potter. So shouldn't the one relationship/feelings trump the other?

I think it did. Harry would not have got the memories he did otherwise IMO.

To hand over the Prophecy to Voldmeort? Snape was very much culpable. But he could have been stopped and he was not. Dumbeldore allowed him to get away IMO.Dumbledore had no way of knowing if Snape had overheard anything at all and was Dumbledore to run out and attack, capture, kill Snape and miss hearing the rest of the prophecy?

This really does get to the heart of the story itself. The way the author set everything up and put it into motion.

It really seems that in trying to shift some portion of blame to Dumbledore for not stopping Snape is an attempt, IMO, to lessen Snape's culpability in the betrayal and subsequent killing of the Potters.

I was talking about Snape's hatred for James. :blush: Ah, gotcha!
I think the opposite. I think Snape cared for Harry in his own way and was very concered for the boy for his sake as well as his mother's.I wholeheartedly disagree. :lol:

He had no care that Harry was physically/mentally abused, starved and neglected, IMO. He had no care that his own bullying was having an adverse effect, IMO. If Harry were permanently stuck at Privet Drive, I don't see that Snape would've blinked an eye. Harry'd be safe and totally kept out of Snape's hair.

For me, it inevitably comes down to the simple question, if not for Lily would Snape have any concern for Harry at all? And I always come up with the same answer: No. To me, for Snape to "care" for Harry in "his own way", it should have been shown on page. IMO, it wasn't. Let me qualify that. To me, caring involves not just seeing to the physical safety of a child, but encompasses the mental welfare and emotional well-being of the child too. I'm sorry but I never see Snape show concern for Harry's mental/emotional well-being, just for his physical safety and to what purpose? For Harry, just Harry? NO. For Lily, always.

Which is a shame, because we do see Snape grow and evolve as a character, to risk his life time and again, to care for Dumbledore and for Draco, and to take the time to save 'innocents' because he can, because it's the right thing to do. Those actions are genuine 'caring', IMO, not because he feels he owes a debt to a dead woman.

To me Snape looked at Harry and saw James and treated him accordingly. He hated James, and here's Harry - James's son - the spitting image of the arrogant, bullying toerag that Lily fell in love with and married and had a family with. This is the child she gave her own life for. I think Snape found it extremely hard to separate James/Harry in his mind {just like Sirius did}. Dumbledore said that 'you see what you expect to see'.

IMO, Snape hated James Potter and he also hated James Potter's son.

I pretty much agree with this. I don't think Snape actively wanted James dead, as much as he loathed him. However, in refusing to forgive James, even after his death, he was indeed his own worst enemy.

I respect your view, but I differ on this point. I think Snape did want James dead along with Harry when he was a DE. But not because he wanted revenge, merely because he wanted Lily. But I am not speaking about that when I talk about his interaction with Harry. At that point, he was trying to reconcile his feelings of jealousy with his wrongful act and he could not do so, imo.

I am not talking about justfying anything. I just disagree that his remorse for his actions were not true because he hated James and continued to do so even after he died. The fact Snape hated a few people did not mean his remorse was false IMO.

What I believe is that Snape did not have "proper" remorse. I have never said he didn't have any at all.

You keep reiterating that Snape hated James. But that was not the emotion that kept him from finding true remorse. The foremost emotion that caused him to be unable to find proper remorse was Jealousy. That fueled his disrespecting James, his mistreatment and disrespecting of Harry and his lack of respect for Lily, imo.

I think Snape did want James dead along with Harry when he was a DE. But not because he wanted revenge, merely because he wanted Lily.

I'm not going to spur the flames with a long-winded discussion, just...

If Lily unceremoniously threw Snape out of her life over the Mudblood thing, what grounds did he have to assume she would want to associate with him in any way after James and Harry were dead? If he wanted her Imperiused to be with him, he could've had her Imperiused before the Potters went into hiding.

It just doesn't make any sense to me. :no:

Jealousy I think was not for James; that was for Lily's chioce. Snape would have been jealous of anyone who married Lily, because he loved her, not just James. I don't think this has anything to do with his remorse.

You keep reiterating that Snape hated James. But that was not the emotion that kept him from finding true remorse. The foremost emotion that caused him to be unable to find proper remorse was Jealousy. That fueled his disrespecting James, his mistreatment and disrespecting of Harry and his lack of respect for Lily, imo.

Jealousy I think was not for James; that was for Lily's chioce. Snape would have been jealous of anyone who married Lily, because he loved her, not just James. I don't think this has anything to do with his remorse.

There you go again, assuming Snape is a complete idiot. :lol:

:huh:

If Lily unceremoniously threw Snape out of her life over the Mudblood thing, what grounds did he have to assume she would want to associate with him in any way after James and Harry were dead? If he wanted her Imperiused to be with him, he could've had her Imperiused before the Potters went into hiding. It just doesn't make any sense to me. :no:

Well I don't expect anyone to agree with me. In my view, Snape felt that Lily - indeed everyone - was as taken with the notion of "Power" as he was. As JKR pointed out, he felt that Lily would be impressed with his becoming a big and impressive DE - despite her hate of the dark arts, Voldemort and all he stood for. She also showed this in the memories. Snape's method of attempting to belittle James in Lily's eyes was to discount those things that might be associated with "Power": "I just wanted to show you that their not as wonderful as everyone thinks" - discounting the popularity and resultant fact that everyone likes the popular. "Big Quidditch hero" another means of "Power". These things clearly meant a lot less to Lily than Snape believed, but that did not temper his belief.

As a DE, Snape was becoming powerful; all of the DEs were, they were winning - killing Order members left and right and no one seemed able to stop them. Snape had turned over the prophecy and that gave him even more standing - to the point where he felt he could try to ask for an exchange with Voldemort (you kill the kid and husband, but spare the wife). At that point, Snape was still focused on Power, imo, and he felt everyone else was also - including Lily. While it might take a while for her to get over her losses, in Snape's mind, it would be akin to Lily getting over her loss of Petunia (which she did to a managable degree). And in the wake of that, Snape would be her saviour, an impressive person and "Powerful" - Lily would come to see that and ultimately love him for it. Snape's jealousy of James was founded in the fact that James appeared to have "Power" that he did not - and I believe he felt that is why Lily chose to be with him - because of that "Power". But James had no "Power" - and that is what Snape failed to understand.

Snape believed this as an adult professor too, imo. He focused on those things when speaking with Harry. Arrogance in strutting around as a Quidditch hero (and incidentally meriting his death), impertinent where respect was due, filthy in using the spells of one's enemy against them (a total Slytherin-like trick Snape should have appreciated :lol:), through and including being an attempted murderer - but alas a coward in the end who got 'cold feet' and couldn't go through with it (there's the Slytherin disdain for not being able to carry out evil deeds (any means) :agree:) - and even then, of the worst sort because the cold feet were only in light of saving himself and his friends (the same disdain shown for Draco by the DEs when he got "cold feet" and couldn't kill Dumbledore - goodness of heart doesn't even enter their minds and Snape too refused to accept the possibility in the case of James). And of course cowardly in only attacking when it was 4 on 1. In other words, there was absolutely nothing whatsoever - nothing at all - for any woman, let alone the wonderful Lily, to fall in love with this despicable creature for - not one redeeming quality. Except Power. Because all of those factors, while absolutely negative, spoke to being powerful and to Snape - it was what attracted people above all else. So Lily was attracted by that power and married the powerful man despite the fact that everything about him was despicable. Sound familiar? That is how I felt Snape reached his conclusions on Lily's thinking in terms of him. Not that he felt that he was despicable of course, and I don't believe he felt James thought he was a despicable fellow either. But I believe that Snape felt Lily saw them both in that light due to the factors above about her husband and the faults Lily had pointed out to him about himself. But power won out for her in the end.

Near the end of his life, I got the feeling that this rationale no longer rang true for Snape. He knew a lot about James at that point that he had not known - and his own life had gone through some dramatic changes in terms of good and evil - toward the good of course. But I feel that fueled his jealousy even more because he had to recognize that the "goodness" Lily spoke of, was what she truly valued - hence, recognizing that his thoughts toward James were not accurate, imo. So that is why I feel the jeaously was his greatest enemy in the end - and of course reestablished everytime Harry entered his thoughts or vision, imo. But JKR added in that very last scene which to me showed this; his final recognition and although it wasn't enough to allow him to work through his jealousy and dislike, it was sufficient to allow him to bring the jealousy to the level of his dislike (still quite strong but not literally overpowering) and Snape could look Harry (James) in the eye to see the woman that loved them - the woman he carried emotions for.

Jealousy I think was not for James; that was for Lily's chioce. Snape would have been jealous of anyone who married Lily, because he loved her, not just James. I don't think this has anything to do with his remorse.

Well I respect your view, but we would just have to agree to disagree on this.

Keep it friendly in here guys. Let's not assume someone elses opinions.

:hmm: I would have thought the LOLing smiley meant I was joking, but OK. I'll go edit that.

As JKR pointed out, he felt that Lily would be impressed with his becoming a big and impressive DE.

I agree, but that's a bit different than saying "she'd be impressed with him not helping her family when he helped her". :shrug:


While it might take a while for her to get over her losses, in Snape's mind, it would be akin to Lily getting over her loss of Petunia (which she did to a managable degree). And in the wake of that, Snape would be her saviour, an impressive person and "Powerful" - Lily would come to see that and ultimately love him for it.

Was Snape, could Snape actually be certain he'd have the "while" you're talking about? They were fighting a war, and even spies die in the war... What you're suggesting for his line of thinking hangs on too thin a thread for me.

I never saw Snape as that confident.

Well I respect your view, but we would just have to agree to disagree on this.

:agree: Of course. We always do.

I understand you were joking but some may not find it funny and for thread sanity I think it is best if we stay away from assuming how anyone else feels. :)

Was Snape, could Snape actually be certain he'd have the "while" you're talking about? They were fighting a war, and even spies die in the war... What you're suggesting for his line of thinking hangs on too thin a thread for me.

I never saw Snape as that confident.

I added a bit more to explain - it wasn't merely a matter of self-confidence to me, but more a confidence in power. If you read the paragraph I added, it helps to explain how I think Snape reached this conclusion. He was intelligent and there had to be a basis for his thoughts, imo. I felt like the canon provided them for us. Again, I understand everyone will not agree, but that is how I interpreted the canon.

I don't think Snape hated Harry. I think Snape loathes James and was quite open about it. I don't think that would in anyway be disrespectful towards Lily. I, for exampl,e don't feel kindly towards my in laws and do on occassion make thaat feeling known to my husband who does love them. While I find that shocking that he can love them LOL, and tell him so, I do feel my love for my husband is in no way diminished or compromised because I have no good thoughts about his parents who he loves ! This is such a good point! :tu: - I have the same problem myself :whistle:

I think Snape did want James dead along with Harry when he was a DE. But not because he wanted revenge, merely because he wanted Lily.
There is absolutely no evidence in canon to support this idea at all. None. Nada.

If Lily unceremoniously threw Snape out of her life over the Mudblood thing, what grounds did he have to assume she would want to associate with him in any way after James and Harry were dead? If he wanted her Imperiused to be with him, he could've had her Imperiused before the Potters went into hiding.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Exactly! :tu: If Snape "wanted" Lily regardless of how Lily felt about him then he could have had her at any point after SWM using the Dark Magic that he so loved. But this is not what he wanted. What Snape wanted was Lily's love and as long as she was alive there was the possibility, however remote, that one day she would love him. Her death would extinguish this hope from Snape's life. What mattered to Severus was keeping Lily alive, because that kept his hope alive. This is why he went to Dumbledore: because he had to keep Lily alive. IMO he didn't give James or Harry a second thought; his mind was consummed with Lily. When it comes down to it Severus would rather ALL the Potters were safe and alive than there was any risk that Lily might die.
Snape had turned over the prophecy and that gave him even more standing - to the point where he felt he could try to ask for an exchange with Voldemort (you kill the kid and husband, but spare the wife). There is no evidence at all that Severus ever said anything of the sort. All we know is that he asked that Lily be spared. I am fairly certain that Voldemort had decided to kill the whole Potter family, so Severus asked, as a favour because he had given over the prophecy to Voldemort that Lily be spared. But Severus quite obviously did not think that Voldemort would do this favour for him. I certainly do not think that Severus saw it as an exchange. That is merely the wording that Dumbledore used to jolt Severus into an awareness of his coldhearted disregard for the lives of people he did not care about.

I agree however that Snape set a lot of store by being powerful, but then an awful lot of people do.

If Lily unceremoniously threw Snape out of her life over the Mudblood thing, what grounds did he have to assume she would want to associate with him in any way after James and Harry were dead?

None whatsoever IMO. Snape respected Lily's choice. That was why I think there is nothing in the books about Snape nagging her and trying to get her to be friends with him again. He understood that Lily had chosen between him and James and he walked away. (That's what I think the scene after the SWM outside Gryffindor Tower is all about)

I would in fact say others did not do that. James for example used Snape as bait, to try and get Lily to go out with him. ("I will if you go out with me Evans. said james quickly. "Go on...go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again." - OOTP SWM).

But I feel that fueled his jealousy even more because he had to recognize that the "goodness" Lily spoke of, was what she truly valued - hence, recognizing that his thoughts toward James were not accurate, imo. So that is why I feel the jeaously was his greatest enemy in the end - and of course reestablished everytime Harry entered his thoughts or vision, imo.

I know you don't agree with me WWB, but I think Snape would be jealous of the Giant Sqid, had Lily married it. He was IMO jealous of Lily's choice which was not him. It shocked him and I think he was unable to defend himself that night after the SWM, because Lily had known about him calling others mudblood and knew about his fascination with the dark arts and still she used the same reasons to break off with him.

I do think it was because Lily chose James over him and I think Snape realised that. I also know we disagree on this point, but I would still like to say that Snape would have been jealous until he either moved on or at least got Lily back as a friend, if not a lover, before his jealous feelings would subside.

This is such a good point! :tu: - I have the same problem myself :whistle:

Thank you! :lol:

There is absolutely no evidence in canon to support this idea at all. None. Nada.

Well I respect your view of what the canon provides, but I was giving mine. To me there is ample canon to support this view. I have detailed it before, so I assume I just interpret it distinctly.

There is no evidence at all that Severus ever said anything of the sort. All we know is that he asked that Lily be spared. I am fairly certain that Voldemort had decided to kill the whole Potter family, so Severus asked, as a favour because he had given over the prophecy to Voldemort that Lily be spared. But Severus quite obviously did not think that Voldemort would do this favour for him. I certainly do not think that Severus saw it as an exchange. That is merely the wording that Dumbledore used to jolt Severus into an awareness of his coldhearted disregard for the lives of people he did not care about.

I don't know how Snape viewed it, however, I was just calling it for what it was, as Dumbledore did, imo. It was an exchange for what Snape had done for Voldemort (bring along the prophecy) - and in exchange he asked for something (spare Lily). The only point - no matter what one calls this - is that Snape felt that he had done something that enabled him to ask.

That was why I think there is nothing in the books about Snape nagging her and trying to get her to be friends with him again. He understood that Lily had chosen between him and James and he walked away. (That's what I think the scene after the SWM outside Gryffindor Tower is all about)

I respect your view, but I feel the fact that Snape took up hexing James at every opportunity in 7th year speaks to his continued jealousy - which is based on his continued desire to be with Lily himself.

I know you don't agree with me WWB, but I think Snape would be jealous of the Giant Sqid, had Lily married it. He was IMO jealous of Lily's choice which was not him.

But I do agree with you. :lol: I don't know why you feel I would not agree with that, I have said in every single post that Snape's #1 problem was jealousy.

It shocked him and I think he was unable to defend himself that night after the SWM, because Lily had known about him calling others mudblood and knew about his fascination with the dark arts and still she used the same reasons to break off with him.

I don't know if he was shocked or not, but I do know that he understood her reasons because she told him. However, that was not enough to cause his belief to waiver: if he were "Powerful" she would ignore all those things that she found negative about him and be with him anyway - love him even, imo.

This is what he convinced himself that her love for James was founded upon, imo.

ETA: I just realized that there is something I have never stated, a link that I thought everyone understood I was making: When Lily ended her friendship with Snape, he understood that she despised Voldemort and that whole ideology. However, I feel that Snape also truly believed that Lily did not believe Snape could ever become powerful as a DE. Whereas Snape believed he could. So in his mind, that is what he had to prove to Lily; that it was possible to be powerful and impressive by following the dark path. Snape already knew that there were other ways to power, he considered popularity and Quidditch prowess a show of power. But he did not have those things. However, ultimately, he too would have power - even if Lily didn't think it was possible - through Voldemort, imo.

But I do agree with you. :lol: I don't know why you feel I would not agree with that, I have said in every single post that Snape's #1 problem was jealousy.

Okay. :) But then I come back to my point, that Snape's jealousy does not take away his remorse any more than his hatred did. His hatred was based on his interaction with those he hated and his jealousy was for the choice Lily had made. Jealous that he was not the one IMO.

Okay. :) But then I come back to my point, that Snape's jealousy does not take away his remorse any more than his hatred did. His hatred was based on his interaction with those he hated and his jealousy was for the choice Lily had made. Jealous that he was not the one IMO.

Right, I respect your view on that, but we just disagree. Jealousy didn't have to impact Snape's remorse, but I feel it did here. He could not work it out and it shielded him from truly feeling sorry what his deed (delivering the prophecy) had rendered, in my judgment. Even his last act of lowering that shield enough to look at James/Harry, was for the purely selfish reason of seeing Lily's eyes to make himself happy, imo. So to me, Snape simply could not overcome his jealousy enough to find true sorrow and thus, could not find true remorse to repent for - hence no true redemption, imo.

I feel that way because as I have said, Snape continued to try to harm those he'd already harmed by his actions, imo. Adding on more harm does not indicate sorrow for the harm he already caused, imo. It was as if he felt that had not been enough. Perhaps because he felt he hadn't planned on it being directed at these individuals - but that matters not, it ended up being these indivduals. So that distinction would fail and so if Snape thought that way, his reasoning was flawed. I don't discount the hate - but I believe that the jealousy was overwhelming and since it fueled the hate in this case, it was all kind of wrapped up together.

To me, Snape disrespected Lily when he was an adult when he mistreated her son and disrespected her love for her husband and child. (Very much like he had when he disrespected her in SWM, only this time there was no attempted apology - and the attempted one in SWM was insufficient as Lily pointed out.) In other words, was Snape sorry that he'd helped create a situation wherein Lily was killed and thus, unable to continue to show Harry and her husband love? I feel the answer is no. Snape was only sorry that he'd created a situation wherein Lily was killed and unable to ever come to love him. Remose on those grounds is selfish and shallow, imo. In my view, Snape was too jealous to consider the former proposition, and the latter is all he could assimilate. That same jealousy fueled his dislike which was played out through his behavior/actions clouding his mind from ever reaching contemplation of the former idea.

Snape's act wound up killing two people and leaving another an orphan, those harms are what Snape should have been focusing on in terms of his act. Delivering a prophecy is not the harm, the harm is what resulted and what he knew would result for *someone*. As I say, heaping more harm on the individuals, directly and indirectly, speaks to a misdirected focus, imo. "I am so sorry for my act and the harm caused by my act - here is some more harm to go with it" - that is not a proposition that speaks to sorrow for the original harm caused - if that makes makes my point clearer.

I don't know how Snape viewed it, however, I was just calling it for what it was, as Dumbledore did, imo. It was an exchange for what Snape had done for Voldemort (bring along the prophecy) - and in exchange he asked for something (spare Lily). The only point - no matter what one calls this - is that Snape felt that he had done something that enabled him to ask.
If there was an "exchange" then it was Lily's life for the information he had provided (ie the prophecy) It was never an exchange of the son for the mother. That as I said was Dumbledore's way of shocking Snape. Snape was not in a position to give Voldemort the son's (ie Harry's life) so he could not exchange Harry's life for Lily's. To put it simply Dumbledore's words were not meant to be taken literally.

I really can't see how Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily can be considered as an exchange. I mean, that implies some sort of bargaining to me, and I really don't think it's a good idea to try and bargain information with Voldemort. Also, Snape had no idea that Voldemort would target Lily and her family when he passed the information regarding the prophesy to Voldemort. As I see it, after Snape found that Voldemort had targeted the Potters, he asked Voldemort, to spare Lily, in the hope that Voldemort would grant him this favour as he was the one to deliver the prophesy. That to me cannot be considered as an exchange.

^Well put TT! That's what I was trying to say in a rather round about way!

I really can't see how Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily can be considered as an exchange. I mean, that implies some sort of bargaining to me, and I really don't think it's a good idea to try and bargain information with Voldemort. Also, Snape had no idea that Voldemort would target Lily and her family when he passed the information regarding the prophesy to Voldemort. As I see it, after Snape found that Voldemort had targeted the Potters, he asked Voldemort, to spare Lily, in the hope that Voldemort would grant him this favour as he was the one to deliver the prophesy. That to me cannot be considered as an exchange.

So Lily would be his reward then? Nice work if you can get it.

I think it's more Lily being alive would be what you say is the reward.

So Lily would be his reward then? Nice work if you can get it.


I would think that is probably the way Voldemort would have seen Snape's request. Snape may even have encouraged him to see it that way, as I doubt Voldemort would have considered sparing her life for a sentimental reason like love. Voldemort despised love and saw it as a weakness. However, I don't think Snape saw his request as asking for a reward, but rather as a desperate attempt to save the life of the woman he loved. He was so desperate to save her life that he even though he was a DE, he approached Dumbledore for help and swore he would do "Anything" if he kept her safe. In meeting with Dumbledore he risked at the least being imprisoned in Azkaban, yet he did it in order to try and save Lily's life.

If there was an "exchange" then it was Lily's life for the information he had provided (ie the prophecy) It was never an exchange of the son for the mother. That as I said was Dumbledore's way of shocking Snape. Snape was not in a position to give Voldemort the son's (ie Harry's life) so he could not exchange Harry's life for Lily's. To put it simply Dumbledore's words were not meant to be taken literally.

Respecting your view, I fail to see what could possibly shock Snape if he didn't understand what Dumbledore was referring to when he used the phrase 'exchange the son for the mother'. Do you mean shocked that he was unable to understand Dumbledore and how it applied to him? Considering he replied, I would have to say he understood exactly what Dumbledore meant. And I also don't feel that Snape was the least bit shocked by it - his mentality at the time did not include the belief that killing the opposition was a bad thing, imo. Nor did Snape feel that trying to rescue just one of those he'd set up for the target killing was a disgusting way of looking at things, imo. And I feel Dumbledore was aware of all of this. You indicate it was the "information he provided" - and that information was that there was a child that would challenge Voldy - the kid that had to be taken out before he could do so - that is what Dumbledore meant by the "son" exchange, imo.

In my judgment, Snape believed that Dumbledore would be ultra grateful that Snape had come forward with the information. And I also feel Snape believed it would do Dumbledore no good at all in as far as saving either James or Harry was concerned (Voldemort would eventually kill them both no matter what). But he certainly did not expect to have to ask for their lives to be saved as well - he was a Death Eater and Dumbledore knew it. However, if both Voldemort and Dumbledore could be bribed to keep Lily safe (by bringing each of them a message important to them by Snape), then between the two of them, she stood a good chance of surviving. That is how I figured he saw it.

I would think that is probably the way Voldemort would have seen Snape's request. Snape may even have encouraged him to see it that way, as I doubt Voldemort would have considered sparing her life for a sentimental reason like love. Voldemort despised love and saw it as a weakness. However, I don't think Snape saw his request as asking for a reward, but rather as a desperate attempt to save the life of the woman he loved. He was so desperate to save her life that he even though he was a DE, he approached Dumbledore for help and swore he would do "Anything" if he kept her safe. In meeting with Dumbledore he risked at the least being imprisoned in Azkaban, yet he did it in order to try and save Lily's life.

Snape was not a Gryffindor - in deference to that house, they are known for their tendency to be straightforward and brutally honest - come what may and they'll brave the consequences. Snape was a Slytherin - "any means" - and JKR didn't select house members randomly, imo. Snape had no intention of going to Azkaban and he was fairly certain if he got his message out before Dumbledore killed him, he was good as gold, imo. Hence, he asked not to be killed (but understand that he would not have come at all if he TRULY believed Dumbledore would simply kill him on sight - he knew where to find owls.) Once that possible issue was out of the way, Snape knew he had a clear and free ride - if he gave Dumbledore this very important information, it would be Dumbledore indebted to Snape - Just as Voldemort had been - not the other way around - in his view, imo. He came with a request, and just as he had gone before Voldemort, he did not arrive empty handed.

As I see it, after Snape found that Voldemort had targeted the Potters, he asked Voldemort, to spare Lily, in the hope that Voldemort would grant him this favour as he was the one to deliver the prophesy. That to me cannot be considered as an exchange.I respect your view but I disagree. What you're stating is, IMO, a clear 'exchange' - to give and receive reciprocally.

Snape provided service/info and asked for something {of Dumbledore and of Voldemort} in return; in one instance, Snape is asking Voldemort for Lily to be spared in exchange for the life of her child ~ and in the other he's asking for Dumbledore to save Lily and in exchange he'll do "anything".

What request could a Death Eater make of me?"
"Hide them all, then," he croaked. "Keep her --- them --- safe. Please."
"And what will you give me in return, Severus?"
"In --- in return?" Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, "Anything."
"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother in exchange for the son?"

In meeting with Dumbledore he risked at the least being imprisoned in Azkaban, yet he did it in order to try and save Lily's life.Yes, he did ~ and without a fare-the-well to the lives of James and Harry Potter ~ until he was shamed into it. IMO, he never expected these two to live and his primary focus was always Lily.

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die as long as you have what you want?"

If there was an "exchange" then it was Lily's life for the information he had provided (ie the prophecy) It was never an exchange of the son for the mother. That as I said was Dumbledore's way of shocking Snape.I disagree here as well. The canon shows that the request was mercy for Lily in exchange for the life of her child. This is what Dumbledore says and Snape shows no reaction: not anger, not denial, not disgust, not distaste, and not shock.

IMO, he wasn't shocked at all until Dumbledore's flung the contemptuous "You disgust me" into Snape's face, that's when we see a reaction out of him. IMO he was shocked again when Dumbledore agreed to help but asks for something from Snape in return.

In my judgment, Snape believed that Dumbledore would be ultra grateful that Snape had come forward with the information. And I also feel Snape believed it would do Dumbledore no good at all in as far as saving either James or Harry was concerned (Voldemort would eventually kill them both no matter what). But he certainly did not expect to have to ask for their lives to be saved as well - he was a Death Eater and Dumbledore knew it. However, if both Voldemort and Dumbledore could be bribed to keep Lily safe (by bringing each of them a message important to them by Snape), then between the two of them, she stood a good chance of surviving. That is how I figured he saw it.I agree, I feel this is how Snape ultimately saw it. He never figured that James and Harry would survive, this is echoed by things Jo has said in the past, about how James wasn't given the opportunity that Lily was because Voldemort was intent upon killing him. Somewhere she said it was in part because the Potters wouldn't join up with him...much as Dean Thomas's father refused to join up and was killed.

Snape had no intention of going to Azkaban and he was fairly certain if he got his message out before Dumbledore killed him, he was good as gold, imo. Hence, he asked not to be killed (but understand that he would not have come at all if he TRULY believed Dumbledore would simply kill him on sight - he knew where to find owls.)


I agree, that there would have been no point to his meeting with Dumbledore if he didn't think he had a chance to make his request. However, the possibility that Dumbledore would kill him was obviously in his mind when he was on the hill, but it was a risk he was prepared to take.

DH, The Prince's Tale

The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or someone... his fear infected Harry, too, even though he knew that he could not be harmed....

This sounds to me as if Snape was very afraid that Dumbledore might just kill him on the spot, which is why I think he shouted out, 'Don't kill me!'

I respect your view but I disagree. What you're stating is, IMO, a clear 'exchange' - to give and receive reciprocally.


To me 'exchange', implies an agreement to trade one thing for another, 'I'll give you tihs if you give me that'. If it was a clear 'exchange', Snape would have needed to have known exactly how Voldemort would react to the prophesy and exactly who he would target in order to bargain Lily's life for Harry's and 'exchange' the information on the prophesy for Lily's life. But, he didn't know and had no way of knowing this when he gave Voldemort the information. Snape's request to Voldemort was made some time after he had already passed the information to Voldemort, possibly even months, as we don't know exactly how long it took Voldemort to decide on targeting the Potters. As Voldemort already had the information he wanted, Snape was not exchanging anything at that time, but was asking a favour in the hope that it would be granted due to his role in bringing the prophesy to Voldemort.



Yes, he did ~ and without a fare-the-well to the lives of James and Harry Potter ~ until he was shamed into it. IMO, he never expected these two to live and his primary focus was always Lily.


I completely agree with you here.:)

But, he didn't know and had no way of knowing this when he gave Voldemort the information.True, of course he had no way of knowing which family Voldemort would target, but IMO he could more than hazard a guess as to who would be targeted based upon the little info he was aware of.

Born to parents who'd thrice defied Voldemort
Born as the seventh month dies

As we know, there were two families --- just two, that met the criteria of that prophecy: the Potters and the Longbottoms who'd managed to defy Voldemort three times and Neville born July 30th and Harry born July 31st.

Once Snape had delivered that prophecy it was interpreted by Voldemort who then made his plans known and it is at this point that Snape very much made "exchanges" both with Voldemort and Dumbledore.

One was to ask for mercy on behalf of Lily in exchange for the life of her child and the other was asking for Dumbledore's help to keep Lily {and by default James/Harry} safe and in exchange he'd do "anything" for Dumbledore.

True, of course he had no way of knowing which family Voldemort would target, but IMO he could more than hazard a guess as to who would be targeted based upon the little info he was aware of.

Born to parents who'd thrice defied Voldemort
Born as the seventh month dies

As we know, there were two families --- just two, that met the criteria of that prophecy: the Potters and the Longbottoms who'd managed to defy Voldemort three times and Neville born July 30th and Harry born July 31st.

that only works if you assume 2 things

1) That the prophecy was made after Novemeber 1979

which is not really a problem :)

and

2) that Severus knew about Lily's pregnancy

However it doesn't seem to make sense that he knew Lily & her family would become targets beccause then why would he have placed her life in danger? I really don't think that a person who is willing to risk his life &/or freedom to protect her would willingly have put her life in danger

3) That he knew who was and was not pregnant in the order and any other people who had defied Voldemort

I don't see him having that knd of intamate knowledge of someone who used to be his friend let alone strangers. And let's not forget that VW1 had been going on for around 10 years - pleanty of time for a couple to have defied him 3 times, and given the length of time Severus had been a DE it is impossible for him to know of all of them imo :)


Basically I think we need to be careful about sperating what we as reader know and what any charater knows at the point where they act - invariably the reader knows more than the character, especially when the reader is learning about things more than a decade after a character makes thier actions jmho :)

that only works if you assume 2 things

1) That the prophecy was made after Novemeber 1979

which is not really a problem :)

and

2) that Severus knew about Lily's pregnancy

However it doesn't seem to make sense that he knew Lily & her family would become targets beccause then why would he have placed her life in danger? I really don't think that a person who is willing to risk his life &/or freedom to protect her would willingly have put her life in danger


You make an excellent point here, kitt! :tu:

We know that Snape didn't trust Voldemort to spare Lily, or why did he approach Dumbledore. So, if he knew in advance that Lily was pregnant and her child could be a target, why would have been endangered her life in passing on the prophesy to Voldemort in the first place. After all, Voldemort may have decided to kill the mother before the child was born. I don't think that would be a risk that Snape would be willing to take with Lily's life.

You make an excellent point here, kitt! :tu:

We know that Snape didn't trust Voldemort to spare Lily, or why did he approach Dumbledore. So, if he knew in advance that Lily was pregnant and her child could be a target, why would have been endangered her life in passing on the prophesy to Voldemort in the first place. After all, Voldemort may have decided to kill the mother before the child was born. I don't think that would be a risk that Snape would be willing to take with Lily's life.

If Voldemort and by extension Snape did not know who was pregnant and who was not, how did they know who to target? At some time there had to be information passed, by Peter more than likely. So it can be surmised that Snape did not have the foggiest who would be the target and he passed the information regardless as to who would be killed. Rather cold blooded, but at the time he was a DE and would not have cared either way. He only started to care when he learned Lily was the target. It was his disregard for the lives of whoever would have been the target and the susequent disregard for the lives of Harry and James, IMO that disgusted Dumbledore. Quite rightly too, IMO.

that only works if you assume 2 things

1) That the prophecy was made after Novemeber 1979

which is not really a problem :)

and

2) that Severus knew about Lily's pregnancyWe know that the prophecy was made prior to Harry's birth. "Nearly sixteen years ago" according to Trelawney's length at the Divination post and also according to Dumbledore regards to the prophecy. So yeah, I'm comfortable with after November 1979.

15 months pass and Snape doesn't know Lily was pregnant or had given birth? I just gotta disagree with that idea. IMO, he kept track of Lily - not her physical location - more like 'oh she married that berk' and 'oh, she's had a child' and 'I wonder what she's doing now'...IMO, knowing how much Snape fixated on Lily - because he loved her- I've no doubt that he'd know she'd married and was expecting a child. He certainly didn't seem to be shocked to learn that Voldemort intended to kill her child, just that he intended to kill the Potters, which included Lily.

However it doesn't seem to make sense that he knew Lily & her family would become targets beccause then why would he have placed her life in danger? I really don't think that a person who is willing to risk his life &/or freedom to protect her would willingly have put her life in dangerHe didn't know how Voldemort would interpret the prophecy. This in no way prevents his ample intellect from logically putting the pieces of the puzzle together. It is possible that the Potters had yet to defy Voldemort for that third time...though IMO this would have occurred prior to Harry's birth, simply based upon the phrasing of the prophecy. "Born to those who've thrice defied him"

3) That he knew who was and was not pregnant in the order and any other people who had defied VoldemortI'm thinking back to all the times Voldemort mouthed off about how his Death Eaters let him be thwarted/defied again. About how he bragged as to what his plans were {some of his Death Eaters apparently knew he was going to kill the Potters on October 31- at least according to Goblet of Fire}. I don't see it as a horrible stretch of the imagination that the Death Eaters, including Snape, would be aware of potential targets, of those who'd defied/thwarted Voldemort, of their extended family members in order to twist/turn/leverage/kidnap/kill to achieve Voldemort's goals.

IMO, it would be common knowledge that upstanding wizards and highly popular Aurors, Dumbledore's supporters, had children as well.
I don't see him having that knd of intamate knowledge of someone who used to be his friend let alone strangers. And let's not forget that VW1 had been going on for around 10 years - pleanty of time for a couple to have defied him 3 times, and given the length of time Severus had been a DE it is impossible for him to know of all of them imo :)Well, okay, so if he didn't know that the Longbottoms had a child and that he was the also ran of the prophecy, this strikes pretty much all of the arguments that Snape bulllying of Neville was because he had animosity towards him that the Potters were targeted and not the Longbottoms and their child. IMO.

If he didn't know Lily'd had a child, wow, he was in for a horrible shock there too when Voldemort announced the three Potters as his targets and began a systematic hunting and tracking of them for a year or more {at least the length of time that Wormtail was betraying the Order and them}. IMO.

He was a master of 'subtle' and was generally coldly logical, IMO. To me, it's entirely plausible that he'd hear the prophecy and attempt to interpret it.
Basically I think we need to be careful about sperating what we as reader know and what any charater knows at the point where they act - invariably the reader knows more than the character, especially when the reader is learning about things more than a decade after a character makes thier actions jmho :)I believe this too, which is why I insert IMO. The nature of character analysis is to discuss not just how the character unfolds but potentially what did/didn't occur.

IMO, Snape was very intellligent and he was capable of putting two and two together. He was IMO capable of attempting to interpret the prophecy. After all, he all ready interpreted it to mean that it "affected his Master"...how was it Dumbledore put it? Most gravely, or some such.

We know that Snape didn't trust Voldemort to spare Lily, or why did he approach Dumbledore. So, if he knew in advance that Lily was pregnant and her child could be a target, why would have been endangered her life in passing on the prophesy to Voldemort in the first place. After all, Voldemort may have decided to kill the mother before the child was born. I don't think that would be a risk that Snape would be willing to take with Lily's life.

Well as an Order member - and a Muggleborn - her life was at risk every day from Snape's gang. It is suggested that Snape might not have known she was an Order member, but no one is going to try to say Snape didn't know she was a muggleborn, considering he called her a Mudblood in canon.

The fact that Snape didn't move to protect the Daily-general-targeted Lily to me supports the idea that he only became interested in ensuring her safety when there was a possibility of being something in it for him.

The fact that Snape did not immediately race to ensure her entire family's safety, but only hers, also supports the idea that he saw it as an opportunity to be with her and tried to make that happen, imo.

The other alternative I have heard (he didn't wish to be the one having a hand in killing her and tried to save her so the woman he had emotions for could "live" - and nothing more than that because he figured she would eternally hate him) doesn't jive in my judgment. If Snape felt Lily would eternally hate him, it would be because his initial act got the ball rolling that killed her family - which means she wouldn't be getting over that and Snape would realize she'd be an eternal emotional wreck and completely unhappy. So his "thinking of her" in that state and feeling that would be a good thing makes no sense to me. This ends in the same scenario as the modified version below.

The modified version of that scenario is that Snape wasn't thinking of Lily, but rather of himself and merely didn't want to have a hand in her death because of his emotions for her and how it would leave him feeling in the wake of her death. But in this scenario, like in the first, Snape went to Voldemort to have Lily spared - and left Voldemort with the false impression that he merely desired her. Hence, if Voldemort had spared her, he would not set her free, he would bring her to Snape. Then what? It doesn't really matter because that little time period would mean that Snape would have Lily in his possession, as her savior - and whatever his plans, that would necessarily be a part of them, imo.

But both alternatives have to take his subsequent actions into account. Going to Dumbledore. Snape did not make a benevolent showing in that situation, imo. He was still intent on Lily being spared and his nonchalant attitude about the rest of the family not only says to me that he didn't care what happened to them, but something more: Snape believed Voldemort was going to kill that child at all costs - and the father as well (who would necessarily with the mum protect the child). He simply didn't believe that Dumbledore could protect them all - but he did feel that with both Dumbledore and Voldemort having their promises to Snape on the mind, Lily would likely come out alive. Snape promised Dumbledore he'd do anything, because he realized that too would assist his ultimate goal, imo. As a spy for both sides, Snape could be there in the wake of Lily's salvation as the savior, no matter whether it was Dumbledore or Voldemort that ultimately kept her safe. "Anything" rings with nefarious intent and is wholly despicable coming from Snape at that time, imo. And it doesn't stand up because any man who truly loved, and would do "anything" for his love, and had a perfect "in" with the prospective killer, would have killed Voldemort, or died trying, imo.

If Voldemort and by extension Snape did not know who was pregnant and who was not, how did they know who to target? At some time there had to be information passed, by Peter more than likely. So it can be surmised that Snape did not have the foggiest who would be the target and he passed the information regardless as to who would be killed. Rather cold blooded, but at the time he was a DE and would not have cared either way. He only started to care when he learned Lily was the target. It was his disregard for the lives of whoever would have been the target and the susequent disregard for the lives of Harry and James, IMO that disgusted Dumbledore. Quite rightly too, IMO.

I agree that they would have found out who became pregnant at a time that would see a child born at the time foretold in the prophecy. But prior to that, neither Voldy or Snape would know who the victims might be - they only knew that there would most certainly be victims, imo.

Respecting your view, I fail to see what could possibly shock Snape if he didn't understand what Dumbledore was referring to when he used the phrase 'exchange the son for the mother'.I am not suggesting that Snape did not understand Dumbledore. What I am saying is that Dumbledore was trying to get Snape to see the situation from a different perspective.

In my judgment, Snape believed that Dumbledore would be ultra grateful that Snape had come forward with the information. And I also feel Snape believed it would do Dumbledore no good at all in as far as saving either James or Harry was concerned (Voldemort would eventually kill them both no matter what). But he certainly did not expect to have to ask for their lives to be saved as well - he was a Death Eater and Dumbledore knew it. However, if both Voldemort and Dumbledore could be bribed to keep Lily safe (by bringing each of them a message important to them by Snape), then between the two of them, she stood a good chance of surviving. That is how I figured he saw it.
But this ignores the fact that Severus feared that Dumbledore would kill him on sight. Snape was a desperate man. He knew Voldemort's agreement to spare Lily meant nothing and that she was still in danger, so he went to the one man he knew would be able to save her. It is as simple as that.

Snape was not a Gryffindor - in deference to that house, they are known for their tendency to be straightforward and brutally honest - come what may and they'll brave the consequences.Really? I don't recall any mention of this in the books at all.

Snape had no intention of going to Azkaban and he was fairly certain if he got his message out before Dumbledore killed him, he was good as gold, imo. Hence, he asked not to be killed (but understand that he would not have come at all if he TRULY believed Dumbledore would simply kill him on sight - he knew where to find owls.) Once that possible issue was out of the way, Snape knew he had a clear and free ride - if he gave Dumbledore this very important information, it would be Dumbledore indebted to Snape -Can you please provide canon - as in quotes - to support this view.

Yes, he did ~ and without a fare-the-well to the lives of James and Harry Potter ~ until he was shamed into it. IMO, he never expected these two to live and his primary focus was always Lily.

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die as long as you have what you want?"
Snape actually expected the whole family to die - that was why he came to Dumbledore. But it was Lily he loved so it was Lily he asked Dumbledore to protect. Dumbledore's disgust is because Severus hasn't spared a thought for the husband and child - he doesn't care if they live or die, but that does not mean that he wanted them dead; they just aren't on his radar. What Severus wanted was Lily to remain alive;what happened to James and Harry did not concern Severus in the slightest. It is this coldhearted disregard for the lives of two people that disgusts Dumbledore, and in pointing it out to him Dumbledore is starting Snape's rehab away from the DE's.

I disagree here as well. The canon shows that the request was mercy for Lily in exchange for the life of her child. This is what Dumbledore says and Snape shows no reaction: not anger, not denial, not disgust, not distaste, and not shock.
The exchange that took place between Snape and Voldemort was that Snape gave Voldemort a piece of useful information and in return Voldemort might possibily spare Lily.
Snape gave Voldemort this information freely without any thoughts of asking for anything in exchange. It was only when the Potter's were targeted that Snape asked for the favour from Voldemort using his provision of the information as leverage.
There was no exchange of the mother for the son because Snape did not have the son to give to Voldemort. Dumbledore uses the phrase "Could you not ask for mercy for the mother in exchange for the son?" he is expressing the situation in an extreme way, to voice his disgust and to force Severus to see the situation from a different perspective.


To me 'exchange', implies an agreement to trade one thing for another, 'I'll give you tihs if you give me that'. If it was a clear 'exchange', Snape would have needed to have known exactly how Voldemort would react to the prophesy and exactly who he would target in order to bargain Lily's life for Harry's and 'exchange' the information on the prophesy for Lily's life. But, he didn't know and had no way of knowing this when he gave Voldemort the information. Snape's request to Voldemort was made some time after he had already passed the information to Voldemort, possibly even months, as we don't know exactly how long it took Voldemort to decide on targeting the Potters. As Voldemort already had the information he wanted, Snape was not exchanging anything at that time, but was asking a favour in the hope that it would be granted due to his role in bringing the prophesy to Voldemort.
Totally agree with this :tu:

15 months pass and Snape doesn't know Lily was pregnant or had given birth? I just gotta disagree with that idea. IMO, he kept track of Lily - not her physical location - more like 'oh she married that berk' and 'oh, she's had a child' and 'I wonder what she's doing now'...IMO, knowing how much Snape fixated on Lily - because he loved her- I've no doubt that he'd know she'd married and was expecting a child. He certainly didn't seem to be shocked to learn that Voldemort intended to kill her child, just that he intended to kill the Potters, which included Lily. There is no canon to support this. If this was the case surely it would have been put in with the memories that Snape gave to Harry.

I believe this too, which is why I insert IMO. The nature of character analysis is to discuss not just how the character unfolds but potentially what did/didn't occur.I always thought that the purpose of character analysis was to analyse the charcter as presented by the author.

If he didn't know Lily'd had a child, wow, he was in for a horrible shock there too when Voldemort announced the three Potters as his targets and began a systematic hunting and tracking of them for a year or more {at least the length of time that Wormtail was betraying the Order and them}. IMO.
Well yes - Snape did have something of a shock when he discovered that the Potters were to be targetted. I am not sure about the timing of it though. It is not clear at what point Voldemort decided to target the Potter. I had always thought that Severus went to Dumbledore pretty soon after he heard that the Potters were the targets, and that Dumbledore then suggested/arranged for them to be hidden by the Fidelus Charm. We know that itwas not long between them being hiodden by the Fidelus Charm and them being killed.

The fact that Snape didn't move to protect the Daily-general-targeted Lily to me supports the idea that he only became interested in ensuring her safety when there was a possibility of being something in it for him. I think that Severus always thought that he would be able to protect her and prevent her from being harmed. If he could join the DE's with the mistaken idea that Lily would be impressed, then I'm pretty sure he could convince himself that Lily was not in any danger from the DEs.

Hence, if Voldemort had spared her, he would not set her free, he would bring her to Snape. Then what? It doesn't really matter because that little time period would mean that Snape would have Lily in his possession, as her savior - and whatever his plans, that would necessarily be a part of them, imo.
This argument holds absolutely no water because if Snape had wanted Lily "in his possesion" he could have aquired her using the Dark Arts at any point post SWM. He didn't have to wait for a prophecy to target her child and for her life to be put in danger. And if this is what he wanted then he certainly would not have gone to Dumbledore because there was no way Dumbledore would countenance such a thing.

15 months pass and Snape doesn't know Lily was pregnant or had given birth? I just gotta disagree with that idea.

But it is very unlikely that Lily had already given birth when the prophecy was made.

The date you yourself choose November 1979 (with which I have no problem at all) is the approximate time of Harry’s conception. So if it was made in the November or December it is possible even Lily didn’t know she was pregnant! So how can we assume that, at the point Severus told Voldemort about the prophecy, he knew Lily & her child were possible targets?

We can't assume that he knew, we can say that if the prophecy was made after Lily was obviously showing he may have known but that leaves over 4 months. If you add to this that most teaching posts are filled by the April, at the latest, proceeding the academic year then it is likely that the prophecy was made during this time (meaning before Lily was showing).

My point was simply that at the point where the prophecy was made & Severus relayed what he knew of it to Voldemort it is unlikely that he knew that Lily might become its target.

Please note I am only saying unlikely :)

I don't see it as a horrible stretch of the imagination that the Death Eaters, including Snape, would be aware of potential targets, of those who'd defied/thwarted Voldemort, of their extended family members in order to twist / turn / leverage / kidnap / kill to achieve Voldemort's goals.

No, not impossible that he would know of most of them – but that he would be aware of which of these were in the early stages of pregnancy?

Which was my point. Even the person who’s pregnant doesn’t often know straight away, the fathers certainly don’t know unless their told. So I don’t think it’s a big stretch to suggest that an enemy wouldn’t know - jmho

If he didn't know Lily'd had a child, wow, he was in for a horrible shock there too when Voldemort announced the three Potters as his targets

Exactly! He was shocked that Lily had been targeted – that was the impression I had reading his encounter with Dumbledore on the hill anyway. He was so shocked that he was prepared to do anything to stop it – that hardly strikes me as a person who knowingly put Lily’s life in danger.

IMO, Snape was very intellligent and he was capable of putting two and two together. He was IMO capable of attempting to interpret the prophecy. After all, he all ready interpreted it to mean that it "affected his Master"...how was it Dumbledore put it? Most gravely, or some such.

I agree Severus was very intelligent and he was capable of putting two and two together. He was also capable of attempting to interpret the prophecy – but only with the information that was available to him at that time.

I just don’t see it as likely that he knew Lily was pregnant (we know from cannon that the prophecy was made before Harry was born). I also don’t think it makes sense to assert that he knew Lily was a potential target given his reactions to her becoming a target.

I just don’t see it as likely that he knew Lily was pregnant (we know from cannon that the prophecy was made before Harry was born). I also don’t think it makes sense to assert that he knew Lily was a potential target given his reactions to her becoming a target.
:agree: Exactly! In fact we have canon that Severus didn't know that the Potters were the targets until later in the explanation that Dumbledore gave Harry in HBP.

I am not suggesting that Snape did not understand Dumbledore. What I am saying is that Dumbledore was trying to get Snape to see the situation from a different perspective.

I respect your view, but why would Dumbledore force a nefarious perspective on Snape, when Snape was thinking in much more benevolent terms? What would be the point?

But this ignores the fact that Severus feared that Dumbledore would kill him on sight. Snape was a desperate man. He knew Voldemort's agreement to spare Lily meant nothing and that she was still in danger, so he went to the one man he knew would be able to save her. It is as simple as that.

Well I am not ignoring that point, I don't feel Snape believed Dumbledore would kill him. If he truly believed that, he'd of sent an owl to ensure Dumbledore knew he was coming in good faith. He was smart enough to realize that A) getting killed on sight would mean he could not get his message out at all - what good would that do? and B) Dumbledore and the Order Members don't kill on sight like the DEs do. They do try to capture first and respond in Self Defense - Snape knew this, he'd been a DE for quite some time.

Can you please provide canon - as in quotes - to support this view.

The same canon that you are using to support the view that Snape merely wanted Lily alive. Interpretation of the events could have many outcomes.

Snape tells Dumbledore he asked Voldemort to spare her - but he doesn't say spare her from what. He asks Dumbledore to keep her safe. So in essence, one could say both men kept their promises. Lily was spared from life and she ended up in the safest place possible, in the afterworld - no one, including Snape, could ever again undertake evil acts that would harm her. She was also there with the love of her life, so she could be interpreted to be in a place of utter happiness.

That fits the facts too, but nobody tells the story that way from Dumbledore or Voldemort's perspective - although they could.

My interpretation is my judgment based on the facts, and I assume yours is as well. I respect that, but we simply don't read them the same way. I saw Snape's acts as representing a selfish desire to be with Lily on his part, and you see it as his merely wanting her alive (if I'm not mistaken) - so we are pretty far apart on our viewpoints.

I think that Severus always thought that he would be able to protect her and prevent her from being harmed. If he could join the DE's with the mistaken idea that Lily would be impressed, then I'm pretty sure he could convince himself that Lily was not in any danger from the DEs.

Well that is a good point. It is possible he was thinking along those lines. However, it is distinct in that her very existence would be in jeopardy. I suppose I just find it difficult to understand why Snape would suddenly become so agressive in his attempt to ensure her safety, when she was at such risk prior to being specifically targeted. That leads me to believe that Snape was motivated by the opportunity of freeing Lily from her family and that he'd actually repressed his feelings for her upon joining the DEs. The opportunity got them bubbling up again.

This argument holds absolutely no water because if Snape had wanted Lily "in his possesion" he could have aquired her using the Dark Arts at any point post SWM. He didn't have to wait for a prophecy to target her child and for her life to be put in danger. And if this is what he wanted then he certainly would not have gone to Dumbledore because there was no way Dumbledore would countenance such a thing.

I have no idea how you figure Snape could have acquired Lily using the dark arts. But I would be intrested in hearing. However, I am not talking force here. I don't think Snape wished to force Lily to love him - a part of his plan was that she would willingly come to love him as her powerful savior.

By "in his possession" I do not mean "force" - I mean Voldemort would have handed Lily over to him per their arrangement. Or do you believe Voldemort was planning to let Lily go after killing her husband and child?

In fact we have canon that Severus didn't know that the Potters were the targets until later in the explanation that Dumbledore gave Harry in HBP.

Indeed we do! :D

The Seer Overheard

'Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he had heard the first half of Professor Trelwaney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy that Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -'

Well yes - Snape did have something of a shock when he discovered that the Potters were to be targetted. I am not sure about the timing of it though. It is not clear at what point Voldemort decided to target the Potter. I had always thought that Severus went to Dumbledore pretty soon after he heard that the Potters were the targets, and that Dumbledore then suggested/arranged for them to be hidden by the Fidelus Charm. We know that itwas not long between them being hiodden by the Fidelus Charm and them being killed.

Supposing Severus went to Dumbledore shortly before the Potters were killed is inconsistent with several points of canon.

1) Snape appears to have been teaching at Hogwarts before Harry died, (see e. g. his statement to Dolores Umbridge in OotP) presumably starting Sept.1. Since he chose to meet Albus on some unpleasant, windy, deserted hillside, it seems logical that this meeting was before Sept. 1 (or the same conversation could be had in Dumbledore's office without arousing Voldemort's suspicions , and asking for his life would not seem a sensible opening for Snape - surely Albus is not in the habit of knocking off his own teachers on sight. :lol: ). Over two months, then, seems the bare miniumum.

2) Albus is quite laudatory about Snape's performance as a spy in GoF (post war legal hearing memory that Harry sees). Would he really describe Snape as spying at great personal risk, and worthy of a pardon, if this took place in the two months Snape was stuck teaching at Hogwarts anyway? I am inclined to doubt it, and even more inclined to doubt Barty Crouch Sr. would find such a performance as a spy deserving of a complete pardon.

3) The physical description of the meeting on the hill specifies a hillside covered in leafless trees. This makes a summer meeting unlikely, unless we are to suppose the trees are all diseased (in which case, I would have expected that to be the description, rather than "leafless"). I'd say that reasonably limits the meeting to between sometime in October, to sometime in March, roughly. And since we can rule out the October Harry died, I think the meeting was at least 7 months before the Potters were killed.

4) How long could it take Voldemort to figure this out? Harry was 15 months old when Voldemort came. If Snape came shortly before that time, Harry was over a year old when Voldemort figured it out. This seems unlikely, to me. Finding out who was born in July would have been a top priority for Voldemort, and I cannot imagine it took more than a few montsh for him to figure it out.

I personally place the meeting as happening, most likely, about three months after Harry was born, say, end of October/early November of his birth year.

This is inconsistent with the business about the Fidelius, so I tend to think Fidelius was used as a last resort, and the Potters tried hiding some other way first.

Supposing Severus went to Dumbledore shortly before the Potters were killed is inconsistent with several points of canon.

1) Snape appears to have been teaching at Hogwarts before Harry died, (see e. g. his statement to Dolores Umbridge in OotP) presumably starting Sept.1. Since he chose to meet Albus on some unpleasant, windy, deserted hillside, it seems logical that this meeting was before Sept. 1 (or the same conversation could be had in Dumbledore's office without arousing Voldemort's suspicions , and asking for his life would not seem a sensible opening for Snape - surely Albus is not in the habit of knocking off his own teachers on sight. :lol: ). Over two months, then, seems the bare miniumum.

When you say "harry died" do you mean the Potters? Also, why do you presume he started at the beginning of the school year?

2) Albus is quite laudatory about Snape's performance as a spy in GoF (post war legal hearing memory that Harry sees). Would he really describe Snape as spying at great personal risk, and worthy of a pardon, if this took place in the two months Snape was stuck teaching at Hogwarts anyway? I am inclined to doubt it, and even more inclined to doubt Barty Crouch Sr. would find such a performance as a spy deserving of a complete pardon.

I don't think this can support the idea because Dumbledore didn't mention how long on purpose. He was trying to save Snape's skin here, so he would wish to push the envelope if possible. If Barty thought it 3 years, all the better. He didn't lie, he simply didn't say at all and Barty took his word for it. Dumbledore's language was chosen to be convincing - it would have to be.

3) The physical description of the meeting on the hill specifies a hillside covered in leafless trees. This makes a summer meeting unlikely, unless we are to suppose the trees are all diseased (in which case, I would have expected that to be the description, rather than "leafless"). I'd say that reasonably limits the meeting to between sometime in October, to sometime in March, roughly. And since we can rule out the October Harry died, I think the meeting was at least 7 months before the Potters were killed.

I agree it was after summer - it could be October of the year the Potter's died, a week before - right when Dumbledore found out the Potter's were targeted and set them up under the fidelius - as McGonagall/Fudge stated. What are you referring to by "Harry died"? I didn't understand that above either.

4) How long could it take Voldemort to figure this out? Harry was 15 months old when Voldemort came. If Snape came shortly before that time, Harry was over a year old when Voldemort figured it out. This seems unlikely, to me. Finding out who was born in July would have been a top priority for Voldemort, and I cannot imagine it took more than a few montsh for him to figure it out.

I think he figured it out right away - as soon as "boys" were born. back in July. But he didn't decide on Harry until sometime later. He had to make a plan which entailed using Peter. Peter was a ratfink, but Voldy would not count on instant allegiance - he'd start him out small and work him up to the betrayal. If JKR tried to say Peter jumped sides and was instantly ready to squeal, I would lose all faith.

Meanwhile, after deciding, we don't know how long before Snape found out, then tried his 'exchange plan' and how long he waited before going to Dumbledore. So there are a lot of uncertainties here, all of which take time, imo.

I personally place the meeting as happening, most likely, about three months after Harry was born, say, end of October/early November of his birth year.

I think not, for a couple of reasons. First it makes Dumbledore seem lame, to hide them only a week right before they get killed, but leave them out in the open till then. Also, if Snape were in with Voldy that long, under the condition of trying to ensure Lily came out of it okay, he would have likely turned his spying to ferreting out the spy - and for him to not even get a clue for an entire year - well one has to suspend the belief system. Of course there is the theory that he knew all about Peter - so if that were the case it would work, but I don't think you believe that theory, so it would not be relevant to your guess here.

This is inconsistent with the business about the Fidelius, so I tend to think Fidelius was used as a last resort, and the Potters tried hiding some other way first.

Last resort to what? Why wouldn't you use the last resort method first? And the minister and McGonagall didn't talk about it as a last resort, they said Dumbledore told the Potters to use it when he found out they were targeted.

To me, the only time that makes sense is a week before the Potters were killed. Otherwise, everyone involved appear to be a pack of regular slackers and nincompoops. I don't think any of them were, so I don't think it could have played out for over a year. Too, since we have no info on Snape doing anything at that time, it seems odd to try to twist the timeline around the possibility of his doing something. It didn't help, whatever it was - so, it would seem to make more sense if the timeline is more in line with what McGonagall and Fudge said.

Snape had no intention of going to Azkaban and he was fairly certain if he got his message out before Dumbledore killed him, he was good as gold, imo. Hence, he asked not to be killed (but understand that he would not have come at all if he TRULY believed Dumbledore would simply kill him on sight - he knew where to find owls.) Once that possible issue was out of the way, Snape knew he had a clear and free ride

Snape's a smart guy, no doubt about it. And he is fully capable of calculated thought and great trickery-- we see it with his spy work against Voldemort.

That said, however, we are given a first-hand look at what Snape looks like when he is lying through his teeth: Spinner's End. He's cool as a cucumber, pushing Wormtail around, mocking Bellatrix, and staying in total control of the conversation. He shows no fear, no confusion, nothing but an air of arrogant complacency throughout most of the exchange.

Compare that with the hillside conversation with Dumbledore. This is not a young man who has rehearsed his lines and is playing the part of the creepily servile renegade. He is, in fact, quite honest about his intentions, going so far as to reveal that he hasn't really spared Harry or James a thought. If this were some plan to both get on Dumbledore's good side and get what he wants, that would never have been revealed.

And let's not forget the totally un-Slytherin promise to do "Anything". Considering how he thinks Dumbledore is likely to kill him on the spot, "Anything" could very easily have been...well, anything. Like "Wait out your stay in Azkaban for your crimes" or "Publicly stand up against the Dark Lord". If Snape actually planned out in detail what he was going to say and how that would affect his own prospects, then he's doing quite a terrible job. :lol:

Snape's a smart guy, no doubt about it. And he is fully capable of calculated thought and great trickery-- we see it with his spy work against Voldemort.

That said, however, we are given a first-hand look at what Snape looks like when he is lying through his teeth: Spinner's End. He's cool as a cucumber, pushing Wormtail around, mocking Bellatrix, and staying in total control of the conversation. He shows no fear, no confusion, nothing but an air of arrogant complacency throughout most of the exchange.

Compare that with the hillside conversation with Dumbledore. This is not a young man who has rehearsed his lines and is playing the part of the creepily servile renegade. He is, in fact, quite honest about his intentions, going so far as to reveal that he hasn't really spared Harry or James a thought. If this were some plan to both get on Dumbledore's good side and get what he wants, that would never have been revealed.

And let's not forget the totally un-Slytherin promise to do "Anything". Considering how he thinks Dumbledore is likely to kill him on the spot, "Anything" could very easily have been...well, anything. Like "Wait out your stay in Azkaban for your crimes" or "Publicly stand up against the Dark Lord". If Snape actually planned out in detail what he was going to say and how that would affect his own prospects, then he's doing quite a terrible job. :lol:

Right - but I don't understand how this jives with his knowing Dumbledore would not likely kill him. He wasn't going before Voldemort and he knew it. Dumbledore was no stranger to Snape. So he had to have had some idea that he would not be killed or there would be absolutely no reason to go. In my judgment, he spoke as any Death Eater would, to get that bit of business out of the way first thing.

While I do feel that there was true anxiety on Snape's part relative to his request - I think it was more a GREAT fear that Dumbledore would send him packing. Snape was not there to ensure the safety of the family, he wanted Lily kept safe. The former was a given of course, because Dumbledore would naturally do that once he had the info. But that is not what Snape wanted - Snape wanted more which is how Dumbledore elicited the further promise.

The "Anything" I feel was a Slytherin as it comes - [pulling off my discussion hat for a moment, it was a proud moment for those of us who admire Slytherins. I feel out laughing then, and I am laughing now, it was brilliant. - hat back on.] Snape had a purpose and he had something to offer to achieve it - Dumbledore wanted more, but that was fine too, because "any means" means just that, imo.

Snape was playing Dumbledore - but Dumbledore played him right back, rather Slytherin of him. :lol:. He didn't give Lily one ounce of extra protection that he didn't give the rest of her family - and he knew very well that is what his part of the bargain was. When Snape threw it in his face, he threw it back, indicating that he'd been in on the game all along - and told Snape basically: that's what you get for putting your faith in Voldemort and trying to play me. It was hilarous to read from an objective view, but the individuals in the scene wouldn't see it that way of course.

It is this coldhearted disregard for the lives of two people that disgusts Dumbledore, and in pointing it out to him Dumbledore is starting Snape's rehab away from the DE's.I agree. The point however, is that he didn't spare anyone but Lily thought, and one has to wonder why? Simply because he loved her...or so that he thought he might have a chance with her? The quote "so you can have what you want" seems straightforward but is very much open to interpretation. Is what he wanted just her survival? Or did he want her to survive and be with him? IMO, it is the latter. Something that Voldemort throws at Harry in that final battle makes me believe this: "He desired her, that was all," sneered Voldemort, "but when she had gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him---"
The exchange that took place between Snape and Voldemort was that Snape gave Voldemort a piece of useful information and in return Voldemort might possibily spare Lily.In the risk of repeating a statement that you often type, there is no canon to support this. This is assumption or simple interpretation, which is fine, I have no problem with that. Yes, Snape gave a piece of information to Voldemort this is canon and this is, IMO, where the interpretation extropolated from. Where is it directly stated he used this info as leverage to request the "possible sparing of Lily"? *shrugs*

Canon shows clearly:

"If she means so much to you surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son".
"I have---I have asked him---"

Again, canon seems to be straightforward, but like all canon is open to interpretation. Is this a positive response from Snape to Dumbledore's "exchange" question OR is this a simple acknowledgement of having asked that Lily be spared? IMO, it's both and that's based upon his reaction to Dumbledore's disgust and the "change" to his plan, which was to save Lily only. IMO he always expected James and Harry to be killed and spared not a thought for them. However, once shamed into it, for Lily, he asked that they too be "saved".
I always thought that the purpose of character analysis was to analyse the charcter as presented by the author.:rotfl: If that were the case, no one would ever have wasted umpteem threads in discussing this very much oft disputed character! They'd already know what he was about and simply all be nodding in quasi-agreement.

Yes, it is a disection of his character as presented in the books but it is also "our" interpretation of the character too. Canon is nice, but if that's all we were allowed to discuss in Character Analysis threads then there'd be no need to type IMO so many times. :)
Well yes - Snape did have something of a shock when he discovered that the Potters were to be targetted.We never see - on page- when Snape learns of Voldemort's divulgence of his murderous plot. So we never see "the shock of discovery" IMO. All we see is that he seeks out Dumbledore sometime "after" he learns that Voldemort is intent on killing not only James/Harry but also Lily and we see him quantify to Dumbledore "he is going to hunt her down---kill them all".

We see him in fear on that hill. We see him agitated. Is this shock over the targetting of the Potters? Is it worry for Lily's safety? Is it fear for his own safety? IMO, it's the latter two. The first words out of his mouth is a fearful "Don't kill me"...the agitation is very much his fear for Lily. However, I don't see the "shock" at Voldemort's intent of "targetting the Potters".

The date you yourself choose November 1979 (with which I have no problem at all) is the approximate time of Harry’s conception. So if it was made in the November or December it is possible even Lily didn’t know she was pregnant! So how can we assume that, at the point Severus told Voldemort about the prophecy, he knew Lily & her child were possible targets?Sorry, but I just gotta say that you selected the date, all I was in agreement with is that the prophecy occurred sometime "after" that date. I never stated that Snape interpreted the prophecy as soon as he'd heard it, cause frankly that's just silly. What I do believe is that he was clever enough to work it out for himself as to which two sets of parents and their offspring were the potential candidates based upon the "parents thrice defied, born as the seventh month dies". Snape would have zero way of knowing who Voldemort would eventually pick or what Voldemort's intent was regarding that prophecy, whether he'd spare the parents or even spare the child and take it under his wing for a Mini-Me.

There's no telling what Voldemort's intent was until he'd announced it. Not knowing what the intent was, why would Snape place himself into danger by leaping into action to save someone that he doesn't know is in imminent danger of being killed? Does that make sense?We can't assume that he knew, we can say that if the prophecy was made after Lily was obviously showing he may have known but that leaves over 4 months. If you add to this that most teaching posts are filled by the April, at the latest, proceeding the academic year then it is likely that the prophecy was made during this time (meaning before Lily was showing). :) I can presume that Snape, who'd held a lifelong candle for one Lily Evans {as shown in canon - he loved her 'Always'} would know that she'd married and given birth to a child. To me that's a no-brainer though I respect that others might disagree.

Beyond that, we've canon showing teaching posts may or may not start at the beginning/middle/end of the school years - or classes could be entirely cancelled or subs found to take over. {Examples would be Grubblyplank taking the post for Hagrid until his return in OotP; McGonagall's telling us she'd been there 'X' amount of years 'this' Christmas; Firenze replacing Trelawney full-time by about mid-March of the 95/96 school year.} So based upon this, it's very hard to nail down when exactly Trelawney rendered her prophecy from date of employment. Although it is helpful to know it was "almost sixteen years ago" this too is more than a little iffy, as she says this to Umbridge at the beginning of the 95/96 school year and Dumbledore says the exact thing to Harry near the very end of the 95/96 school year. The weather too, is not a good indicator, because "a cold, wet night" in northern Scotland could apply for fall/winter/spring and even well into the summer months.



Exactly! He was shocked that Lily had been targeted:lol: No, I meant "shocked" as in completely taken by surprise that Lily was 1) married, 2) had not only been pregnant but had given birth to a child without his being aware, and then 3) targeted for extermination because she'd had a baby that might turn out to be Voldemort's future nemesis.

I don't get the "shocked" vibe from that scene on the hill. I get a "fearfully deranged at the thought of Lily's death and willing to anything to prevent it" vibe. Exactly! In fact we have canon that Severus didn't know that the Potters were the targets until later in the explanation that Dumbledore gave Harry in HBP.Well, the canon that we do have from Dumbledore in HBP seems incongruous. He tells us this:

"But he did not know---he had no possible way of knowing---which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward."

This seems to imply that Snape did indeed know that more than one boy had been selected. It also implies Snape knew specifically which boys had been selected by Voldemort.

Then we have from Dumbledore:

"Or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew."

This seems to clash with Dumbledore's previous statement. How could he know boys had been selected and not know that the child was the offspring of people he knew?

Dumbledore could simply have meant that Snape knew boys have been selected and were being considered as to which was the Chosen One, but didn't know that Voldemort's plan was to destroy an entire family, to wipe out not only the child but the parents too - or that Voldemort would choose Lily's family over the other.

Supposing Severus went to Dumbledore shortly before the Potters were killed is inconsistent with several points of canon.I agree with you Zara.

Well, the canon that we do have from Dumbledore in HBP seems incongruous. He tells us this:

"But he did not know---he had no possible way of knowing---which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward."

This seems to imply that Snape did indeed know that more than one boy had been selected. It also implies Snape knew specifically which boys had been selected by Voldemort.

Then we have from Dumbledore:

"Or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew."

This seems to clash with Dumbledore's previous statement. How could he know boys had been selected and not know that the child was the offspring of people he knew?

Dumbledore could simply have meant that Snape knew boys have been selected and were being considered as to which was the Chosen One, but didn't know that Voldemort's plan was to destroy an entire family, to wipe out not only the child but the parents too - or that Voldemort would choose Lily's family over the other.


I don't see Dumbledore's speech as being incongruous. Taking the whole speech into consideration, Dumbledore is talking about Snape's knowlege at the moment he delivered the prophecy.

'Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned him most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards....

Of course, Snape must have realised that on delivering the prophecy that Voldemort would target a male child, as the prophecy mentions a boy. However, as Dumbledore goes on to say, that at the time when Snape delivered the prophecy:

But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards...

I understand that to mean, that when Dumbledore uses the words, "which child" he is speaking in general terms and not specifically. At the time Snape overheard the prophecy, he would have not known how many boys this may effect let alone their identity, or that of their parents. All Snape would have known is that Voldemort would very likely target a boy, whose identity he did not and could not have known. That is what I understand Dumbledore to be saying here.

I don't see Dumbledore's speech as being incongruous. Taking the whole speech into consideration, Dumbledore is talking about Snape's knowlege at the moment he delivered the prophecy.

'Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned him most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards....

Of course, Snape must have realised that on delivering the prophecy that Voldemort would target a male child, as the prophecy mentions a boy. However, as Dumbledore goes on to say, that at the time when Snape delivered the prophecy: Hmmm, does the prophecy which Snape overheard mention a boy? Let's look at the prophecy for just a moment:The One to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...Now the other canon from Phoenix:"He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you---again marking you as his equal.See, in order for Snape to know that the "One" would be male, he'd have had to overhear the 3rd line of the prophecy...which we're told he didn't hear and so he couldn't warn his master of the possible dangers involved in attacking that child. So the "male" part is out, IMO. What Dumbledore is stating in Phoenix is his own knowledge of the prophecy, as well as quantifying the amount of Snape's knowledge too.

IMO what he's stating in Prince is Snape's knowledge of Voldemort's intended targets based upon the Dark Lord's interpretation of the bit of prophecy Snape had handed to him.
But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards...

I understand that to mean, that when Dumbledore uses the words, "which child" he is speaking in general terms and not specifically. At the time Snape overheard the prophecy, he would have not known how many boys this may affect let alone their identity, or that of their parents.
Voldemort had watched and waited to see if the prophecy would be fulfilled and we're told that there were only two families in the Order {the prophecy said "parents thrice defied" who'd defied Voldemort three times and had children born at the end of July. Those candidates were slim pickings, in fact, only 2 families {out of the entire wizarding world apparently} met the prophecy criteria: the Longbottoms and the Potters.
In order for Snape to identify possible targets, he would have to have knowledge of all the pregnant witches who were due to give birth at the end of July in order to draw any conclusions before delivering the prophecy to Voldemort.No, I disagree. He'd have to have knowledge --- as a Death Eater --- of couples who'd managed to thwart Voldemort on three separate occasions. IMO, that's the starting point. Again, a narrow pool of candidates. From there, all it takes is careful watching to see if the wives had a 'magi' in the oven and waiting to see when/if those children were born at the end of July.

Voldemort had watched and waited to see if the prophecy would be fulfilled and we're told that there were only two families in the Order {the prophecy said "parents thrice defied} who'd defied Voldemort three times and had children born at the end of July. Those candidates were slim pickings, in fact, only 2 families {out of the entire wizarding world apparently} met the prophecy criteria: the Longbottoms and the Potters.


We don't know if James and Lily had already defied Voldemort 3 times by time the prophecy was given.

We don't know if James and Lily had already defied Voldemort 3 times by time the prophecy was given.

The wording in the prophecy is 'Born to those who have thrice defied', I would speculate that 'who have' is in past tense and therfore the defiance had already occurred.

It's still too big an assumption that Snape would know all of the couples in question at the time that he heard the prophecy. I don't think he would know everything. If one works for an organization of any kind it doesn't mean that one knows everything that everyone else knows (if everyone else even knew the details of who defied Voldemort how many times). Also, I'm not convinced that Voldemort himself knew immediately who he was going to target, especially if many couples had defied him. I mean, many were against him, no? The kids needed to be born before he could narrow things down.

I agree with Dumbledore. Snape could not have known and it makes zero sense to me that he would know. Even if Snape eventually learned or figured out that Harry was a possible choice he still would not have known this at the time he heard the prophecy.

:rotfl: If that were the case, no one would ever have wasted umpteem threads in discussing this very much oft disputed character! They'd already know what he was about and simply all be nodding in quasi-agreement.

Certainly not. This is how I understand character analyusis too, and it has not prevented me from participating in some 15+ different Snape threads in their various versions and incarnations. :D

Look back at your own post. You discuss a portion of the author's presentation of the chaacrter: a line by Dumbledore about Snape "getting what he wants". Are we all nodding in quasi-agreement? :rotfl:

I I can presume that Snape, who'd held a lifelong candle for one Lily Evans {as shown in canon - he loved her 'Always'} would know that she'd married and given birth to a child. To me that's a no-brainer though I respect that others might disagree.

Yes, but that establishes he knew this at some point after Harry was born. The prophecy, and his fateful decision, were long before that. (The prophecy is worded to be speaking about a future coming - the One "approaches", not "Has come"). Even with his interest, he may not have had any idea Harry's birthdate was 7/31, and if Voldemort found out quickly (a late October date for the meeting on the hill, e. g.) then this could have been when Snape learned.

It's still too big an assumption that Snape would know all of the couples in question at the time that he heard the prophecy. I don't think he would know everything.

Regardless of whether he really did know a complete list of persons and couples who "threice defied" Voldemort...he could not possibly know that his list was exhaustive.

More to the point, what constitutes "defying"? A personal run-in with the Dark Lord himself? Any squabble or skirmish with any Death Eater? Joining the Order? Something else? How do we add up to three? Is one definance by James, and two by Lily, three defiances? Or do they have to do them together for them to count? We readers have never been able to agree, so how should Snape be assumed to know exactly what that means? Some insist James and Lily fought Voldemort himself three times and evaded him, before Harry was born. (If so, my opinion of James Potter just fell lower, as difficult as that is for me to believe. :lol: ). I'd say their mutual refusal to join Voldemort (Hagrid mentioned Voldemort would like to have recruited them), and their joining of the Order, is already "thrice defying" (and defying on that level, means there are probably lots and lots of people who did it more than once.)

It's still too big an assumption that Snape would know all of the couples in question at the time that he heard the prophecy.Two couples, who'd thrice defied Voldemort, is too big of an assumption? Is too overly complicated for Snape to reasonable put the pieces together? I disagree.

Also, I'm not convinced that Voldemort himself knew immediately who he was going to target, especially if many couples had defied him.Once again, I never said Snape knew at the time the prophecy was made, only that he could have reasonably been expected to puzzle it out.

We know that Voldemort watched and waited and then interpreted the snippet of prophecy, so who were his eyes and ears that were doing the watching and waiting? His loyal Death Eaters of course.

Look back at your own post. You discuss a portion of the author's presentation of the chaacrter: a line by Dumbledore about Snape "getting what he wants". Are we all nodding in quasi-agreement? :lol: My point exactly, Z! If we're all thumping the canon drum for "analysing the character as presented by the author" rather than "analysing the character as presented by the author by interpreting the author's work from various points of view while using different bits of canon to support our suppositions", well, it makes for dull convo - IMO.

Yes, but that establishes he knew this at some point after Harry was born. The prophecy, and his fateful decision, were long before that. (The prophecy is worded to be speaking about a future coming - the One "approaches", not "Has come"). Even with his interest, he may not have had any idea Harry's birthdate was 7/31, and if Voldemort found out quickly (a late October date for the meeting on the hill, e. g.) then this could have been when Snape learned.I agree, the prophecy speaks of a 'future' event. I agree, that knowing Lily gave birth points to knowledge after the fact. What I'm saying, however, is that it's not unreasonable for me to presume that Snape, who loved Lily, would know she'd married James Potter or that she was even expecting a child by him.

More to the point, what constitutes "defying"? A personal run-in with the Dark Lord himself? Any squabble or skirmish with any Death Eater? Joining the Order? Something else? How do we add up to three? Is one definance by James, and two by Lily, three defiances? Or do they have to do them together for them to count?Well, at the risk of having fruit tossed my way, Jo did quantify this in an interview. It was "couples", it was not necessarily a "confrontation" with Voldemort, but more in line with foiling his plans. And there were only the two couples who'd accomplished this three times.

If Hagrid can keep track of how many times Harry's defied Voldemort, then to me it's not unreasonable to assume the wiser and cagier Death Eaters like Snape could possibly keep track of couples thwarting his Master.

And there were only the two couples who'd accomplished this three times.

Quote, please? This last is unfamiliar. As to the rest, it is great that Rowling knows what she means, but this in no way proves Snape knew it too. It is a matter reasonable people can and have disagreed on.

I would find it a remarkable coincidence that the only two couples to ever defy Volemort three times, both happened to give birth to sons at the end of July in the same year.

Okay...here you are:SU: Oh, that's so cool. Can we just ask kind of a sad thing, though. What did the Longbottoms do that they earned that wrath from Bellatrix? Such-- There's three times, like the Potters thrice defied the Dark Lord.

JKR: They were efficient! They were efficient. That's all they needed to do to earn her wrath. They were-- They had rounded up Death Eaters, they were very good Aurors, they knew what they were doing, they were responsible for a lot of captures and arrests and imprisonments. And-- So there you are.

MA: What about the three times-- The thrice-defying of Voldemort?

JKR: Of James and Lily?

MA: Of Neville's parents. Well, James and Lily, too.

JKR: It depends how you take defying, doesn't it. I mean, if you're counting, which I do, anytime you arrested one of his henchmen, anytime you escaped him, anytime you thwarted him, that's what he's looking for. And both couples qualified because they were both fighting. Also, James and Lily turned him down, that was established in "Philosopher's Stone". He wanted them, and they wouldn't come over, so that's one strike against them before they were even out of their teens.
To recap: Neville was born on the 30th of July, the day before Harry, so he too was born 'as the seventh month dies'. His parents, who were both famous Aurors, had 'thrice defied' Voldemort, just as Lily and James had. Voldemort was therefore presented with the choice of two baby boys to whom the prophecy might apply. However, he did not entirely realise what the implications of attacking them might be, because he had not heard the entire prophecy. As Dumbledore says:

'He [the eavesdropper] only heard the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you.'

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind. "He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far --- something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parents, ever achieved."These quotes, IMO, show that there were just the two couples in the running. They, IMO, show that Dumbledore knew and also that Voldemort knew...from that, and the fact that people are keeping track of Harry's defying Voldemort too, IMO, it's not unreasonable for me to presume that Snape could have worked out the prophecy eventually because there was, as seen, a very narrow field of candidates: two sets of parents and their sons. I respect that people may have differing ideas, but this is my opinion. :)

Thanks for posting that Zara! I don't think I have thought very deeply about the timing of the prophecy issue since before HBP. I remember we used to have very long and convaluted discussions about it! I think it works out at about 2 years between Trelawney giving the prophecy and the Potters being killed, which sounds like a long time to me given that once he knew who had had babies at the end of July and decided which one he would go after, they would have been target no. 1 for Voldemort.

Well I am not ignoring that point, I don't feel Snape believed Dumbledore would kill him. If he truly believed that, he'd of sent an owl to ensure Dumbledore knew he was coming in good faith. He was smart enough to realize that A) getting killed on sight would mean he could not get his message out at all - what good would that do? and B) Dumbledore and the Order Members don't kill on sight like the DEs do. They do try to capture first and respond in Self Defense - Snape knew this, he'd been a DE for quite some time.Are you serious about Severus using an owl? After everything in the books that bangs on about how unsafe owls are with top secret messages, with Dumbledore inventing the use of patronuses to carry messages. I'm sorry but this idea cannot be taken seriously for one minute. Sending an owl with the huge risk of Voldemort (or one of the other Ds)intercepting it was far more dangerous than meeting Dumbledore.
I tend to find that I prefer to use the simplest explanation which uses the canon provided. The canon provided is that Severus was in fear of his life - not that he was acting that he was in fear of his life because that requires a scene of explanation that isn't in the books, and generally if an interpretation of a scene requires a further scene which is not in the books I would say that it is not a very good interpretation.

If that were the case, no one would ever have wasted umpteem threads in discussing this very much oft disputed character! They'd already know what he was about and simply all be nodding in quasi-agreement.

Yes, it is a disection of his character as presented in the books but it is also "our" interpretation of the character too. Canon is nice, but if that's all we were allowed to discuss in Character Analysis threads then there'd be no need to type IMO so many times. :lol: Well what I was trying to say was that there is so much stuff which is canon, but interpreted in different ways that we are on verion 10 of this thread and still going strong, ( :clap: ) that speculation about off page scenes although fun, does not add to our understanding of the character. Though of course they can add to our understanding of each other's understanding of the character.

We never see - on page- when Snape learns of Voldemort's divulgence of his murderous plot. So we never see "the shock of discovery" IMO. All we see is that he seeks out Dumbledore sometime "after" he learns that Voldemort is intent on killing not only James/Harry but also Lily and we see him quantify to Dumbledore "he is going to hunt her down---kill them all".

We see him in fear on that hill. We see him agitated. Is this shock over the targetting of the Potters? Is it worry for Lily's safety? Is it fear for his own safety? IMO, it's the latter two. The first words out of his mouth is a fearful "Don't kill me"...the agitation is very much his fear for Lily. However, I don't see the "shock" at Voldemort's intent of "targetting the Potters".
Well I was actuaklly thinking of how Dumbledore described it to Harry in HBP. - That Snape took the prophecy to Voldemort never dreaming that the Potters would be targetted. The way Dumbledore expressed it rather implied to me that Severus did get a shock. And by this I mean like Kittling that he was shocked that Liyl was to be targetted. I certainly don't see why Severus would know that Lily was pregnant - I could see him knowing that she had married James, but even if you see someone everyday you may not know they are pregnant until it becomes very obvious and with some people this can be as late as seven months - or even nine months. Given that Severus had no contact with the Potters I do not see why Severus would know such personal information about them. Dumbledore on the other hand I think would have been onto it and most likely warned the Potters and the Longbottoms as soon as he knew they were pregnant, which given their membership Of TOoP would have been quite early. As such I also think he would have ensured that the Potters and Longbottoms kept a fairly low profile and didn't broadcast their impending "happy events". I would say that Wormtail was the most likely source of information regarding the pregnancies. Sorry I'm wandering wildly off topic :whistle:

I don't see Dumbledore's speech as being incongruous. Taking the whole speech into consideration, Dumbledore is talking about Snape's knowlege at the moment he delivered the prophecy.I agree. What Dumbledore was saying was that all Snape knew was that a child would be born at the end of July who could bring down the Dark Lord - so he gave the Dark Lord that information. He later discovered that 2 families were under scrutiny - the Potters and the Longbottoms (and he probably felt pretty sure that Voldemort would pick the pure blood) but then Voldemort chose the Potter boy and Severus went into meltdown. It always hinged on Voldemort's choice. He could have chosen Neville.

Are we all nodding in quasi-agreement? In the mods' dreams!

Had Snape knew that it was the Potters, I think, he would have never handed the Prophecy to Voldemort. He came running to Dumbledoe, because Harry Potters had been targeted. Had he known that Lily was pregnant and could deliver a child sometime at the end of July, I think Snape would have waited before he told Voldemort, if at all IMO.

Quote, please? This last is unfamiliar. As to the rest, it is great that Rowling knows what she means, but this in no way proves Snape knew it too. It is a matter reasonable people can and have disagreed on.

I would find it a remarkable coincidence that the only two couples to ever defy Volemort three times, both happened to give birth to sons at the end of July in the same year.

Why do you find it amazing? JKR made it that way. The book is fantasy after all. :lol:.

Are you serious about Severus using an owl? After everything in the books that bangs on about how unsafe owls are with top secret messages, with Dumbledore inventing the use of patronuses to carry messages. I'm sorry but this idea cannot be taken seriously for one minute. Sending an owl with the huge risk of Voldemort (or one of the other Ds)intercepting it was far more dangerous than meeting Dumbledore.
I tend to find that I prefer to use the simplest explanation which uses the canon provided. The canon provided is that Severus was in fear of his life - not that he was acting that he was in fear of his life because that requires a scene of explanation that isn't in the books, and generally if an interpretation of a scene requires a further scene which is not in the books I would say that it is not a very good interpretation.

I was merely giving a suggestion in example, I could give 20 more ways. My only point was that if Snape truly believed Dumbledore would kill him on sight, he would not have gone. There would have been no point. Plus you cannot escape the fact that Dumbledore wasn't known to be a cold blooded murderer - even of Death Eaters.

Two couples, who'd thrice defied Voldemort, is too big of an assumption? Is too overly complicated for Snape to reasonable put the pieces together? I disagree.

Once again, I never said Snape knew at the time the prophecy was made, only that he could have reasonably been expected to puzzle it out.

We know that Voldemort watched and waited and then interpreted the snippet of prophecy, so who were his eyes and ears that were doing the watching and waiting? His loyal Death Eaters of course.

That is likely true - but then what? Even if Snape knew the Potters and Longbottoms were both possible choices at some point along the way, he didn't do anything about it. Just as he did nothing regarding Lily's safety for the years before all of this actually came about - she was a Muggleborn the whole time. He only acted when she was specifically targeted. It was his act that caused it and his boss who made the decision - and his opportunity to cut a deal. Prior to that, he had no leverage. He was cunning enough at that point to realize he had leverage with both Voldemort and Dumbledore.

I would find it a remarkable coincidence that the only two couples to ever defy Volemort three times, both happened to give birth to sons at the end of July in the same year.

The prophecy does not necessarily indicate that there were only two couples that defied Voldemort three times. Even Arthur and Molly could have defied Voldemort three times, but couldn't be the ones in the prophecy because their son was born in March, not July. Perhaps Ted & Andromeda Tonks defied Voldemort three times. There are many possiblilites if you take each part of the prophecy separately. There were probably more wizarding children than just Harry and Neville born in July of that year, too, but not to parents who defied Voldemort three times.

My only point was that if Snape truly believed Dumbledore would kill him on sight, he would not have gone. There would have been no point. Plus you cannot escape the fact that Dumbledore wasn't known to be a cold blooded murderer - even of Death Eaters.

Let me offer a different possibility:

"The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or for someone… His fear infected Harry too, even though he knew that he could not be harmed, and he looked over his shoulder,wondering what it was that Snape was waiting for –
Then a blinding, jagged jet of white light flew through the air. Harry thought of lightning, but Snape had dropped to his knees and his wand had flown out of his hand.
“Don’t kill me!”
“That was not my intention."

First bold for real fear - whether you choose to peg Voldy or Dumbledore as the probable cause. Therefore, not as cold-bloodedly calculated decision as might seem...

Second bold for effects of the spell Dumbledore casts - we don't see Snape on his knees that often. Hardly a hearty welcome; Snape's exclamation doesn't come as surprise for me.

These quotes, IMO, show that there were just the two couples in the running.

No, they suggest, in fact, that any married couple in the Order would have been people who thrice defied Voldemort. (And the net would be even wider, Rowling agrees with me that simply not joining Voldemort when he wanted it, would be "defying".) What narrowed it to two was the birthdates of Neville and Harry. So again, after the fact, the list was narrow and Snape could have figured out eventually Lily would be on it even without Voldemort telling him, but at the time of the prophecy, he could not know who in total might be a "thrice-defier". He might know Lily and James were, if he followed their career, but he could name many others who might be too, and would know there could easily be others he does not know about. The future tense of the prophecy does not even rule out future couples - nothing in the Prophecy says it has to come true within a year. If there had not been a single qualified birth that year (no Order members or similar having a baby in late July), I presume Voldemort would have waited to see what happened in each subsequent year, in which case it could also apply to complete unknowns, like some couple still in Hogwarts and not dating, when the Prophecy was made, destined to have a baby five years later.. :)

Thanks for posting that Zara! I don't think I have thought very deeply about the timing of the prophecy issue since before HBP. I remember we used to have very long and convaluted discussions about it! I think it works out at about 2 years between Trelawney giving the prophecy and the Potters being killed, which sounds like a long time to me given that once he knew who had had babies at the end of July and decided which one he would go after, they would have been target no. 1 for Voldemort.

It is undeniably, longer than 15 months. Harry was 15 months old when his parents were killed, and the Prophecy was made before then. I don't really see a huge difference between 15 months and 24, personally. This is why I tend to think Voldemort knew who the target was very quickly after Harry was born, and then was foiled by Dumbledore/the Potters/the Order for many months before Peter's betrayal led to the Potters' deaths.

Why do you find it amazing? JKR made it that way. The book is fantasy after all. :lol:..

Apparently, she did not. :)

The prophecy does not necessarily indicate that there were only two couples that defied Voldemort three times. Even Arthur and Molly could have defied Voldemort three times, but couldn't be the ones in the prophecy because their son was born in March, not July. Perhaps Ted & Andromeda Tonks defied Voldemort three times.

Indeed, this is what I am saying, the Wizard world might be littered with couples or families who "thrice defied" Voldemort, and there was no way a young Death Eater like Snape could imagine he knew all of them.

That meeting on the the hill and Snape's fear of Dumbledore.

it always struck me that Snape feared that Dumbledore would kill him. I read it as an example of how far away from understanding Dumbledore Snape was at that point in time - and vice versa.

Snape was probably a very jaded and cynical man by nature. In his mind, anyone would be capable of murder- and especially someone whom- from his knowledge as a Death Eater- would be touted as an the biggest enemy and the only one Voldemort- Snape's "master." - ever feared.

Keep in mind that Voldemort - as most tyrants would do- probably relied on stoking the fear and mistrust in his followers towards eachother, towards the world, towards anyone - so they relied on and were controlled by Voldy and Voldy alone.

We know who Dumbledore was because we see the story from Harry's POV. We knew that Voldemort feared Dumbledore's ability to love as much as anything else- but Snape only knew that the 2nd most powerful Wizard in the World feared this man whom he was approaching after becoming a Death Eater. He had no real understanding of this person when he went to that hill. He had no idea as to whether he would be killed, or just arrested on the spot and landed in Azkaban. IMO, aside from defying Voldemort- going to Dumbledore was also a very brave act for that reason.

I was merely giving a suggestion in example, I could give 20 more ways. My only point was that if Snape truly believed Dumbledore would kill him on sight, he would not have gone. There would have been no point. Plus you cannot escape the fact that Dumbledore wasn't known to be a cold blooded murderer - even of Death Eaters.As any one who knows anything about espiopnage will tell you the only really safe way to pass on information is face to face. Snape did not know Dumbledore at this point. He knew Dumbledore as his old headmaster, as leader of the OotP. Dumbledore was also cited as the only wizard that Voldemort feared. Given that Voldemort feared him, it is very natural that Voldemort's followers would also fear him.

Had Snape knew that it was the Potters, I think, he would have never handed the Prophecy to Voldemort.Once again, it's not about Snape interpreting the prophecy before he hands it off to Voldemort, but about the possibility he could have used the info to reasonably puzzle out who the intended targets were. He came running to Dumbledoe, because Harry Potters had been targeted.Because Harry Potter was targeted? :no:

I respect your opinion, but to me canon clearly shows that he went to Dumbledore for Lily, not for Harry and definitely not for James. Had he known that Lily was pregnant and could deliver a child sometime at the end of July, I think Snape would have waited before he told Voldemort, if at all IMO.Well, let me ask you this. At what point do you think Snape turned? As soon as he found out that Voldemort was in watch and wait mode? As soon as the two wizards born at the end of July made their appearances? When Voldemort made his decision to kill Harry? Or when Voldemort made his decision to kill Harry, James, and Lily?

According to Jo, Sirius was the only person present {other than the Potters} for Harry's christening as they were in hiding because baby Harry was already in danger. Wormtail had begun his spying and was passing info for more than a year.Even if Snape knew the Potters and Longbottoms were both possible choices at some point along the way, he didn't do anything about it. Just as he did nothing regarding Lily's safety for the years before all of this actually came about - she was a Muggleborn the whole time. He only acted when she was specifically targeted.I completely agree. We know they were fighting, defying Voldemort, they'd - according to Jo - already had the strike against them from the start because they wouldn't join up. Where was Snape? We're told the Potters were fighting, they'd manage to defy Voldemort three times and this was not in relation to, IMO, their as yet unborn child at all. If they were fighting and thwarting then they - Lily and James - were in danger. So where was Snape's concern for Lily being in danger at that point in time? :huh:
No, they suggest, in fact, that any married couple in the Order would have been people who thrice defied Voldemort. (And the net would be even wider, Rowling agrees with me that simply not joining Voldemort when he wanted it, would be "defying".)I can respect that this is your opinion even though I disagree with you. :)

MA: What about the three times-- The thrice-defying of Voldemort?
JKR: Of James and Lily?
MA: Of Neville's parents. Well, James and Lily, too.
JKR: And both couples qualified because they were both fighting."This to me signifies that the two couples listed - and only the two couples listed - were candidates because they "were both fighting" and had "thrice defied" Voldemort, not simply "any" couple "fighting" in the Order or any other couples fighting either. IMO.
In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis.This to me signifies that there were only two couples and only two potential Chosen Ones...two little boy candidates to muse upon and finally select as his target.

Once again *goes the broken record* :yuhup: - a narrow field of couples prior to birth, same narrow field after the births. IMO.
What narrowed it to two was the birthdates of Neville and Harry.IMO, it starts with the "thrice defied" and ends with "born as the seventh month dies" - just as the prophecy foretells. Their defiance, to me, occurred prior to the birth of their children simply by how the prophecy is phrased.

So, based upon this, IMO Snape could have known the two couples who had the potential just from the "thrice defied" aspect and would have known for certain once the boys were born at the end of July. We know that Voldemort was waiting and watching. We know that his Death Eaters were his eyes and his ears, they relay the valuable info to him, we've seen this countless times from the Death Eaters which includes Snape.

This doesn't mean that he knew unequivocally that Voldemort intended to kill any of the parents or their children simply because of that prophecy. I really don't think he could have known this, since Voldemort didn't appear to have a plan of action until he'd made his determination as to which boy the prophecy referred to.
The future tense of the prophecy does not even rule out future couples - nothing in the Prophecy says it has to come true within a year.Yet we know now as Snape knew then, it did come true within the year.

Frankly, I'd think it terribly odd for Snape to rush off to his Master to give prompt and full report of his spying effort and what he'd overheard, something that we're told concerned his Master most deeply, if he didn't feel that it was urgent/imminent. But that's just me. :lol:

I have to agree with those saying that the Lonbottoms and the Potters were not the only ones in the running. JKR's interview does not state this. It states that they qualified, not that they were the only ones qualified. What made them the only ones in the running was that their children were born in late July. Until then I don't see how they could have been the only ones considered, especially when "defying" seemed to be a rather broad thing according to JKR. So if we are looking at her statements on the matter then one would have to take this into account. I would doubt that these two couples were the only ones fighting against Voldemort.

And I still don't think that Snape kept tabs on everyone to know such details about their battles against the DE as well as intimate details about them. I actually don't think he would have known that Lily was pregnant until she was pretty far along and the news made it out... if he found out prior to Voldemort at all...

Once again, it's not about Snape interpreting the prophecy before he hands it off to Voldemort, but about the possibility he could have used the info to reasonably puzzle out who the intended targets were.

SO your talking about after Severus relayed what he heard of the prophecy to Voldemort but before Voldemort announced that the Potters were his target?

I got to ask - why?

I'm in awe of myself that I actually post here :lol:

But what I'm even more in awe is the subject of discussion. Are we trying to see if Snape knew or knew not what consequences his babbling to Voldemort would have? Based on how many people did or did not defy Voldy before and based on if Snape tracked Lilys gynecologist reports?

Now I've been away from the Snape discussions for a long time, and distance gives clarity. To me the issue is very simple:

Snape made a mistake. He told Voldemort something he knew would potentially lead to the murder of persons. That in itself is a very bad thing to do IMO. Independently of who they were or if he realised who they could be.
He regretted ONLY when he realised the target was a women he loved.
Conclusion: Had Voldy targetted the Longbottoms, Snape would still be a DE.

Basically I see absolutely no point in speculating if he knew or not who the targets could be. He KNEW that revealing the prophecy to Voldy would lead to murder. (Unless he thought that Voldy would invite the people to a teaparty, yes? ;) )

Snape made a mistake. He told Voldemort something he knew would potentially lead to the murder of persons. That in itself is a very bad thing to do IMO. Independently of who they were or if he realised who they could be.
He regretted ONLY when he realised the target was a women he loved.
Conclusion: Had Voldy targetted the Longbottoms, Snape would still be a DE.

This is true only if you assume that this is the only reason that Snape would have ever regreted his act. And you can't know that. 10 years later, Snape may have read the Bible or one of Dalai Lama's books or survived in a horrible accident, whatever, and decided he needed to change his ways. Saying he wouldn't have ever changed for any other reason involves an obvious assumption on your part, since you can't predict what else could have happened in his life that could have made him leave the Death Eaters.

ok let me rephrase: from what we know of the story and of Snape and assuming that no really unlikely things like the Dalai Lama or the Bible would have happened, and solely based on what we actually have read about Snape without getting into the butterfly effect, then Snape would have never changed. Because he only changes sides because Lily was the target. That's a fact and we know it from himself. So everything else brings us into the realm of AU (alternative universe) which is cool but not really productive.

It states that they qualified, not that they were the only ones qualified.To me, the statements outside of the books, combined with the book canon itself, makes it clear that is the two combined lines of the prophecy, not one OR the other. To me, when Rowling quantifies there were only "two" boys in the running, this signifies there were only two "couples" that met the terms of the prophecy.

We can all just agree to disagree. :)
I got to ask - why?Why not? :lol:

Snape was a very intelligent person. Here he trots off this prophecy to Voldemort, one that he's already interpreted to mean possible danger for his Master and he just files it away and never thinks about it again until Voldemort says "I'm gonna kill James, Lily, and Harry Potter"...? He never wondered who the "One" might be? Never considered what couples had thrice defied his Master?

Does that even sound like Snape to you? Because it sure doesn't sound like him to me. :no:

This is true only if you assume that this is the only reason that Snape would have ever regreted his act.Well......at the risk of having fruit thrown at me:
Greta, 8: If Snape didn't love Lily, would he have still tried to protect Harry?

JKR: No. He Definitely wouldn't have done. He wouldn't have been remotely interested in what happened to this boy.If Voldemort hadn't targetted Lily directly, he'd not have turned IMO. The above answer strongly implies that. It also, to me, strongly implies that Snape could have cared less in regards to the Longbottoms and their young son possibly being targetted for murder because of the prophecy he'd handed over to his Master. So I agree with guad.

ok let me rephrase: from what we know of the story and of Snape and assuming that no really unlikely things like the Dalai Lama or the Bible would have happened, and solely based on what we actually have read about Snape without getting into the butterfly effect, then Snape would have never changed. Because he only changes sides because Lily was the target. That's a fact and we know it from himself. So everything else brings us into the realm of AU (alternative universe) which is cool but not really productive.

I agree. In essence, Snape, like all of the DEs could have one day left, or attempted to leave the DEs as Kardikoff and Regulus did. They would likely end up dead for their troubles like those two. And it is possible that Dumbledore would become a Dark Lord and take over the wizard world.

But speaking in terms of the canon we have, Snape only changed sides because Lily was targeted. I do not feel that JKR was making the proposition that all of the DEs, including Snape, were all good guys deep down, just waiting for some major event to turn them around. Snape was privy to a number of major events - torture and death - that did not jerk him out of his fixation with evil. So it took this event specific to Snape to cause him to make a move that would eventually lead him away from the DEs, imo.

That is why JKR said he would remain a DE if Lily was not targeted. Like many of the other DEs we saw, Snape was immersed in Voldy's regime and satisfied that it would meet his needs and goals, imo.

As any one who knows anything about espiopnage will tell you the only really safe way to pass on information is face to face. Snape did not know Dumbledore at this point. He knew Dumbledore as his old headmaster, as leader of the OotP. Dumbledore was also cited as the only wizard that Voldemort feared. Given that Voldemort feared him, it is very natural that Voldemort's followers would also fear him.

I respect your view. I am just of the view that Snape believed that Dumbledore would listen to him before trying to kill him. I think it is natural for him to ask not to be killed, but I don't think that was a primary fear on his part. Snape took a big risk going to Dumbledore, but not because Dumbledore might kill him, rather because Voldemort would if he found out the truth of the meeting. But Snape's true fear, imo, relative to Dumbledore, was that the elder wizard would not grant his request - keeping Lily safe above all others. Dumbledore calmed his fears, indicating he would, but asking for something in return (although Snape felt he'd already given him something.) Dumbledore didn't keep his promise though, just like Voldemort, but used Snape anyway. Then Dumbledore repeated the exact same behavior and in both cases Snape accused him of it. But for some reason, Snape kept coming back for more and the third time Dumbledore used him, it ended in Snape's death. This does cause one's mind to wonder about Snape's wisdom when it came to dealing with powerful men.

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis.This to me signifies that there were only two couples and only two potential Chosen Ones...two little boy candidates to muse upon and finally select as his target.

I take this to mean the Prohecy in full, definitely including the line "Born as the seventh month dies". But I plan to post no further on this. Parsing Rowling's interview quotes is not an interest of mine. :)

Basically I see absolutely no point in speculating if he knew or not who the targets could be.

If the point is to answer the question "was reporting the Prophecy bad", then you are right, the discussion would be pointless. :lol: But the assertion is that Snape did not come to Albus desperate and in a panic very shortly after he realized who might be affected, but rather that he knew long before, because this was somewhow unavoidable. (Pardon my vagueness, I firmly believe the opposite, and hence find myself unable to do justice to the other side).

ok let me rephrase: from what we know of the story and of Snape and assuming that no really unlikely things like the Dalai Lama or the Bible would have happened, and solely based on what we actually have read about Snape without getting into the butterfly effect, then Snape would have never changed..

This more definitive statement I would contest. :)

Lily is the proximate and only cause of his initial change, the thing that drove him to Albus in the first place. This is certainly, I agree with you, an undeniable fact in the canon.

However, over the course of the remaining 15 years of his life, he does things I would characterize as both good, and irrelevant to both Lily, and his role as Harry's protector for her sake. Notable among these are his consent to perform the mercy killing of Albus Dumbledore, and his efforts to protect students at Hogwarts in DH. Why does he do them? As they are caused by something other than fear for Lily's (Harry's) life...they seem pretty decent evidence to me that Snape is capable of being motivated to do good by other things.

Lily is the proximate and only cause of his initial change, the thing that drove him to Albus in the first place. This is certainly, I agree with you, an undeniable fact in the canon.

However, over the course of the remaining 15 years of his life, he does things I would characterize as both good, and irrelevant to both Lily, and his role as Harry's protector for her sake. Notable among these are his consent to perform the mercy killing of Albus Dumbledore, and his efforts to protect students at Hogwarts in DH. Why does he do them? As they are caused by something other than fear for Lily's (Harry's) life...they seem pretty decent evidence to me that Snape is capable of being motivated to do good by other things.

I think that argument could be made for his acts years after switching sides, but the point was that he wouldn't have been motivated by those things if Lily hadn't been targeted. Meaning he would not have evolved into the same individual because he would have remained on the dark side. I feel speculation as to what he might have done otherwise, is akin to speculating Dumbledore might have become a dark lord.

I respect your view. I am just of the view that Snape believed that Dumbledore would listen to him before trying to kill him. I think it is natural for him to ask not to be killed, but I don't think that was a primary fear on his part. Snape took a big risk going to Dumbledore, but not because Dumbledore might kill him, rather because Voldemort would if he found out the truth of the meeting. But Snape's true fear, imo, relative to Dumbledore, was that the elder wizard would not grant his request - keeping Lily safe above all others.

Have I got this right? What you are saying is that Snape thought that it was possible that Dumbledore would not take measures to protect Lily, a member of the Order, who may have just given birth to the wizard who would defeat Voldemort. This really makes no sense to me. I can't think of one reason why Snape would think that Dumbledore would not take measures to protect Lily.Why would Dumbledore do that?

Snape displays such obvious physical fear whilst waiting on the hillside for Dumbledore, so much in fact, that his fear is so infective that Harry feels it too. As Snape was expecting Dumbledore, I think this most definately shows very clearly that Snape was at that moment very afraid of Dumbledore.

I take this to mean the Prohecy in full, definitely including the line "Born as the seventh month dies".

I agree, Zara, the "Born as the seventh month dies" is just as an important a factor in identifying the "Chosen One", and therefore in identifying the parents.
Dumbledore mentions both when he is explaining the prophecy to Harry.

OoP, The Lost Prophecy

'Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times.'

Dumbledore does not say that Harry's and Neville's parents were the only ones to have defied Voldemort three times, it is just one aspect of fulfilling the prophecy. So, for all we know there may have been others, just that they did not have a child born at the end of July, just as there may have been other children born at the right time, but whose parents hadn't defied Voldemort 3 times

Have I got this right? What you are saying is that Snape thought that it was possible that Dumbledore would not take measures to protect Lily, a member of the Order, who may have just given birth to the wizard who would defeat Voldemort. This really makes no sense to me. I can't think of one reason why Snape would think that Dumbledore would not take measures to protect Lily.Why would Dumbledore do that?

No. :lol:. Snape knew that Dumbledore would protect the family once he informed him Voldy had targeted them. But that is not what Snape wanted. Snape wanted Lily protected. Snape went and made a personal plea, offering information in order to get Dumbledore to agree to grant Lily protection - above and beyond what Dumbledore would do for the rest of the family. That is, Snape didn't care what Dumbledore did for the rest of the family, but he wanted assurance that Dumbledore would keep Lily safe.

Snape feared that Dumbledore would in essence say: "thanks for the info Mr. Death Eater, now on your way!" That would be no good, Snape didn't come all that way and take a risk to merely give Dumbledore the info - he wanted Dumbledore's promise to keep Lily safe in return.

This is made clear to me personally when Dumbledore gives his disgusted speech - and Snape hesitates over an answer. But his answer reiterates his desire - keep Lily safe. Then Dumbledore asks what Snape would do for him in return. In return for what I ask...Snape has done all of the giving so far, he gave Dumbledore the precious information and Dumbledore hasn't done a single thing for him. But Snape doesn't ask "For what?" He understands that Dumbledore means in return for specifically heeding his request and keeping Lily - specifically Lily - safe. And thinking like your average Slytherin, he of course responds "Anything".

Snape displays such obvious physical fear whilst waiting on the hillside for Dumbledore, so much in fact, that his fear is so infective that Harry feels it too. As Snape was expecting Dumbledore, I think this most definately shows very clearly that Snape was at that moment very afraid of Dumbledore.

Well we can agree to disagree on this point - I don't think it is very relevant.

Have I got this right? What you are saying is that Snape thought that it was possible that Dumbledore would not take measures to protect Lily, a member of the Order, who may have just given birth to the wizard who would defeat Voldemort. This really makes no sense to me. I can't think of one reason why Snape would think that Dumbledore would not take measures to protect Lily.Why would Dumbledore do that?
Well, what Snape initially wanted is Lily to live and James/Harry to die (or at least he didn't care much about them, and having James out of the way would certainly have helped for uhmmm having Lily for himself). This is what he requested Voldemort to do, to spare Lily.

But Snape's true fear, imo, relative to Dumbledore, was that the elder wizard would not grant his request - keeping Lily safe above all others.
Above all others being the key point here. Dumbledore was disgusted at Snape because he pretty much was fine with having Lily's husband and baby murdered, as long as she lived.

Notable among these are his consent to perform the mercy killing of Albus Dumbledore, and his efforts to protect students at Hogwarts in DH. Why does he do them? As they are caused by something other than fear for Lily's (Harry's) life...they seem pretty decent evidence to me that Snape is capable of being motivated to do good by other things.
Well maybe in the end he sort of got involved in the whole mission against Voldemort because after all one can't do things only half.

But Snape himself says that it's for Lilys sake. When Dumbledore says that he thought that Snape might have grown fond of Harry (or somehting liek that) Snape answers all offended. "HIM??!!!" and throws Bambi's mum the doe at Dumbledore :lol: