Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Once again, it's not about Snape interpreting the prophecy before he hands it off to Voldemort, but about the possibility he could have used the info to reasonably puzzle out who the intended targets were.

Perhaps he did, perhaps he did not; personally I don't think he did (it would be very difficult for him to go around seeing who was pregnant and who was not IMO), but even if he did and assuming there were more than 2 boys born on 31st July, Snape could have done nothing. It was Voldemort who had to choose. Dumbledore in OOTP says that Neville could have been the BWL, but Voldemort chose a half-blood like himself, rather than a pureblood which would have made more sense, because Voldemort thought only them as worthy of magic IMO.

At that time, it is clear Snape was a DE. He came at that point in time for Lily only. Harry and James were important to Snape only because they were important to Lily and Lily would not hesitate even for a second to die if it meant that action would save James or Harry. That was why Snape came to Dumbledore when he heard Voldemort had chosen the Potters IMO.

Because Harry Potter was targeted? :no:

Sure! Because Harry was targeted. For Snape knew Lily would die in a heartbeat for Harry IMO.

At what point do you think Snape turned?

I could be wrong about this, but I think Snape turned when Voldemort chose. I don't think Snape knew Lily had a son born to her on that day date before.

Snape made a mistake. He told Voldemort something he knew would potentially lead to the murder of persons. That in itself is a very bad thing to do IMO. Independently of who they were or if he realised who they could be.

I agree with this, only feel that Snape could have been stopped by Dumbledore on the day Snape heard the prophecy. (this does not take away Snape's culpability, rather it gives a different view of things from an overall point of view of Voldmeort, prophecy and the war IMO)

While I agree Snape was responsible for the murder of not only a baby, but presumably also its parents, I also think the whole issue would not have happened, if only Dumbledore had Confunded him or oblivated him.

He regretted ONLY when he realised the target was a women he loved.
Conclusion: Had Voldy targeted the Longbottoms, Snape would still be a DE.

At that time, yes. But Snape's change of mind, showed he had the potential to turn away from the dark. While it may not have happened that time, I don't think we can say he would have never changed.

This is true only if you assume that this is the only reason that Snape would have ever regretted his act. And you can't know that. 10 years later, Snape may have read the Bible or one of Dalai Lama's books or survived in a horrible accident, whatever, and decided he needed to change his ways. Saying he wouldn't have ever changed for any other reason involves an obvious assumption on your part, since you can't predict what else could have happened in his life that could have made him leave the Death Eaters.

I agree. :tu:

posted by guad
Above all others being the key point here. Dumbledore was disgusted at Snape because he pretty much was fine with having Lily's husband and baby murdered, as long as she lived.

I don't think this is wrong either; Ron in DH, did not care if Goyle would die or live, he actually said that he would kill Harry if they were hurt for saving Goyle. I don't think that was not wrong, because to Ron, Goyle is a DE with whom he has nothing good.

Snape had nothing good with James. He cared nothing at that time for James's life and he could not care for Harry's even if he wanted to (which I think he did not at that time) because he was the chosen child of the prophecy.
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Dumbledore was disgusted with Snape because Snape did not care for James and Harry's lives.

I have a question.

Would Dumbledore have been disgusted with Ron as well for wanting to save his and Harry's lives while uncaring of Goyle's or Draco's?

They were in great danger in the ROR and the fiendfyre was getting to all of them and Ron cared nothing for Draco's and Goyle's lives, because he wanted to save Harry's and his own life first. I don't think that's wrong.

Snape could beg Voldemort for Lily's life telling him, he desired her. But could Snape ask Voldemort to spare the life of his hated enemy James or Harry, the boy Voldemort himself had chosen to be killed?

MA: What about the three times-- The thrice-defying of Voldemort?
JKR: Of James and Lily?
MA: Of Neville's parents. Well, James and Lily, too.
JKR: And both couples qualified because they were both fighting."
This to me signifies that the two couples listed - and only the two couples listed - were candidates because they "were both fighting" and had "thrice defied" Voldemort, not simply "any" couple "fighting" in the Order or any other couples fighting either. IMO.

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis.
This to me signifies that there were only two couples and only two potential Chosen Ones...two little boy candidates to muse upon and finally select as his target.
The Longbottoms and the Potters were both potential targets because they had children at the end of July. We know that they were the only two couples who fulfilled BOTH parts of the criteria - that is they had thrice defied Voldemort and had a child at the end of July. There could well have been numerous couples who had thrice defied Voldemort and other couples who had children at the end of July, but these two families werer the only ones that fulfilled both criteria.

Snape knew that Dumbledore would protect the family once he informed him Voldy had targeted them. But that is not what Snape wanted. Snape wanted Lily protected. Snape went and made a personal plea, offering information in order to get Dumbledore to agree to grant Lily protection - above and beyond what Dumbledore would do for the rest of the family. That is, Snape didn't care what Dumbledore did for the rest of the family, but he wanted assurance that Dumbledore would keep Lily safe.
This is pure speculation. The words on the page are quite clear to me. Snape is afraid, Harry recognisesit and is "infected" by it. Dumbledore appears and disarms him Snape says "Don't kill me!" Ergo - Snape was afraid that Dumbledore would kill him. Of course part of his fear is due to the entire situation. Anyone who has ever had a major crisis in their lives knows that fear - the fear that Severus had of Lily dying - but at the scene on the hill it is quite clear to me that Severus is very much afraid of what Dumbleodre may do. Additionally Snape does not ask for additional protection for Lily - he just asks for her to be protected. He hasn't even thought of James and Harry - that is what Dumbledore is disgusted at. When Dumbledore points out that two other peoples lives are at risk then Severus says okay save them all. At no point does he say - save them all but I want Lily to have extra protection. Snape is in absolutely no position to start bargaining! On the contrary as we see so clearly it is Dumbledore who holds all the cards, and Dumbledore who quite clearly calls the shots. The fact that Snape is surprised by Dumbledores words and his choice of action shows how far Snape is from understanding Dumbledore's mentality and how engrained he has become into DE ways of thinking.
I think that argument could be made for his acts years after switching sides, but the point was that he wouldn't have been motivated by those things if Lily hadn't been targeted. Meaning he would not have evolved into the same individual because he would have remained on the dark side. I feel speculation as to what he might have done otherwise, is akin to speculating Dumbledore might have become a dark lord.And I find speculating that Snape was asking for Lily's protection to be above and beyond that which Dumbledore would give the other Potters as akin to speculating Dumbledore might have become a Dark Lord.

Pardon me for saying (writing) this, and I'm presumably going to get a lot of **** for it but I honestly consider Snape being a disgusting coward. The only reason that he does not continue doing his masters bidding is because he's got a crush on lily who's married to James. Well is it not obvious that he's weak minded. If he would really care for lily he would have stood up to the dark lord a long time ago. If he really cared he would not meddle in dark magic and help the dark lord to kill other muggelborns. Either one do this or that. One does not be a Death Eather and have a desire for a muggelborn girl.

Make a choose before you find yourself with one foot in each door. Don't be a coward like wormtail and hide between the big guy. That's my opinion, straight from the heart.

Would Dumbledore have been disgusted with Ron as well for wanting to save his and Harry's lives while uncaring of Goyle's or Draco's?
Yeah I think so. That's also what made Harry special in Dumbledore's eyes, the ability to feel sorry even for Tom Riddle. But maybe that's more for Dumbledore or Ron thread? And you're asking the wrong person anyway, I'm not a huge Ron fan. :)

While I agree Snape was responsible for the murder of not only a baby, but presumably also its parents, I also think the whole issue would not have happened, if only Dumbledore had Confunded him or oblivated him.
Yep and if Dumbledore had given Tom Riddle the DADA job, maybe everything would have turned out this way (http://guad.deviantart.com/art/Old-art-Voldys-request-107959265) :lol: ;)

What I mean to say that it's rather too easy to blame Dumbledore for things that others (in this case Snape) did wrong.

At that time, yes. But Snape's change of mind, showed he had the potential to turn away from the dark. While it may not have happened that time, I don't think we can say he would have never changed.
Of course we can't! Because so many things might have happened even without Snape loving Lily (as Yoana pointed out, epiphanies, religious experiences, etc) But it's a whole line of "would" and "what if" scenarios.

So yeah, I'm pragmatic and stick with what we have. Obviously I'm always a big fan of crackastic scenarios involving Snape saving baby seals, but maybe not here ;)

If he would really care for lily he would have stood up to the dark lord a long time ago. If he really cared he would not meddle in dark magic and help the dark lord to kill other muggelborns.
I agree with that, but also to say that a teenager can make mistakes, and it's clear that he got involved with Dark arts out of peer pressure maybe. That does not explain why he continued as an adult though.

Pardon me for saying (writing) this, and I'm presumably going to get a lot of **** for it but I honestly consider Snape being a disgusting coward. The only reason that he does not continue doing his masters bidding is because he's got a crush on lily who's married to James.

Snape is many things, and not all of them nice, but a coward is not one of them, IMO. :cool: Dumbledore remarked on his courage in the GoF flashback we saw in The Prince's Tale. And once Harry had found out the truth about him, many years later he called Snape 'probably the bravest man he ever knew'.

Well is it not obvious that he's weak minded. If he would really care for lily he would have stood up to the dark lord a long time ago.

Not sure I would describe young Sev as 'weak-minded', exactly. Obviously I don't approve of him joining the Muggle-persecuting DEs, that was a terribly wrong decision in his life that had catastrophic consequences. He was seduced by the promise of power, I suppose. But he does not strike me as a weak-minded character: as an adult, he shows a fierce tenacity in sticking to his role as double agent.

I think he also made amends for his terrible decisions in his youth. Not everyone in this thread would agree with me on that, but I like this character, despite his many flaws, and I like my interpretation of him, and I'm sticking with it. ;)

P.S. Baby seals, quad? :lol: I thought it was baby unicorns. ;)

Perhaps he did, perhaps he did not; personally I don't think he did (it would be very difficult for him to go around seeing who was pregnant and who was not IMO), but even if he did and assuming there were more than 2 boys born on 31st July, Snape could have done nothing.Much more difficult than tracking and spying on Albus Dumbledore? :no: Had it not been for Aberforth, Snape would've heard the entire prophecy, IMO.

You say Snape could have done nothing. Sure he could, he could have switched sides and said "these are the boys Voldemort's considering as possibilities and one is the child of Lily Evans Potter. I don't know what he's planning, but there's a possibility that Lily might be in danger. Can you help?" He didn't do that.

I believe Snape switched sides not when he knew the potential candidates for the "One" but only when Voldemort had made it apparent that he intended to hunt down and kill all of the Potters, because he believed that child was the "One". To Voldemort it seemed *most prudent to kill them all*.

At this point, when the murderous plot for Lily, James, and Harry is revealed to Snape, he asked Voldemort to spare Lily and presumably was told yes by Voldemort. After all, we know he gave her the opportunity to step aside and then he killed her.

Not trusting that yes from his Master to keep Lily safe, he ran off to meet Dumbledore in a request to spare all of the Potters, right? Er, no, that's not right. He ran to Dumbledore and reguested him to save Lily and to heck with her husband and child. Sure! Because Harry was targeted. For Snape knew Lily would die in a heartbeat for Harry IMO.

I could be wrong about this, but I think Snape turned when Voldemort chose. I don't think Snape knew Lily had a son born to her on that day date before.:huh: Wait, so Snape, who you believe couldn't possibly know that Lily'd been pregnant, much less by the man she loved and married, James Potter. She now *surprise* has a baby boy Snape never knew about and yet suddenly he knows definitively that Lily *a woman he'd not seen or spoken to in years* would sacrifice herself for her child if the child were targeted by Voldemort? :no:

He went to Dumbledore without a thought for her child or for what it would do to this woman to lose both her husband and her child. Not one! His thought was, IMO, only for Lily's physical safety.

Why would Snape, whom you believe 'knew' Lily would sacrifice herself for her child, believe for a moment that Lily could ever be separated from her child by the likes of Dumbledore so that she - and only she - could be protected? IMO, Snape knew that James was going to be murdered. Did he not think she might die trying to defend her husband, the man she loved?

IMO, by the time Snape goes to Dumbledore he's carrying the knowledge that a "triple-murder" of one of two wizarding families had been Voldemort's ultimate answer to the prophecy. He didn't trust that in the heat of things that Voldemort would restrain himself to his promise to have mercy on Lily.

At that time, yes. But Snape's change of mind, showed he had the potential to turn away from the dark. While it may not have happened that time, I don't think we can say he would have never changed.If not for the threat to Lily, IMO Snape never would have switched sides. It's only years afterwards that we see him doing good that is not attached to his "always for Lily" mantra.


I don't think this is wrong either; Ron in DH, did not care if Goyle would die or live, he actually said that he would kill Harry if they were hurt for saving Goyle. I don't think that was not wrong, because to Ron, Goyle is a DE with whom he has nothing good.

Snape had nothing good with James. He cared nothing at that time for James's life and he could not care for Harry's even if he wanted to (which I think he did not at that time) because he was the chosen child of the prophecy.[/Well, actually what Ron said was "If we die for them, I'll kill you, Harry!" - which was very silly and tongue in cheek - IMO a bit of comic relief in a tense situation - because if they'd died, well, he'd not be able to kill Harry, would he?

This to me is not the same thing comparatively to what you're saying.
But could Snape ask Voldemort to spare the life of his hated enemy James or Harry, the boy Voldemort himself had chosen to be killed?Let me turn the question back on you...

Could Snape have asked Dumbledore to spare the life of his hated enemy and his son, the boy Voldemort himself had chosen to kill, if Lily hadn't been involved?
There could well have been numerous couples who had thrice defied Voldemort and other couples who had children at the end of July, but these two families werer the only ones that fulfilled both criteria.I respect your opinion but disagree. I believe book and interview canon show that only two couples ever achieved the "thrice defied" part of the prophecy. We can agree to disagree and then we can stop playing the broken record. :)

Well we can agree to disagree on this point - I don't think it is very relevant.

I respect your opinion. However, in my opinoin, as we were talking about Snape's meeting on the hillside with Dumbledore, in which we were discussing whether or not Snape was fearful of Dumbledore, I happen think it is relevant.


The words on the page are quite clear to me. Snape is afraid, Harry recognisesit and is "infected" by it. Dumbledore appears and disarms him Snape says "Don't kill me!" Ergo - Snape was afraid that Dumbledore would kill him. Of course part of his fear is due to the entire situation. Anyone who has ever had a major crisis in their lives knows that fear - the fear that Severus had of Lily dying - but at the scene on the hill it is quite clear to me that Severus is very much afraid of what Dumbleodre may do.

Thank you, Cathy, this is what I was trying to say.

Pardon me for saying (writing) this, and I'm presumably going to get a lot of **** for it but I honestly consider Snape being a disgusting coward.

I respectfully disagree. Snape was the bravest man Harry ever knew in canon.

I don't think Snape's a coward. Cowards IMO cannot do "anything"; they cannot come running to a man they think will kill him (Dumbledore on the hill) just so that they could save their loved ones.

Above all, cowards are bullies and I don't think Snape was a bully. Dudley was a bully; Lily called James "an arrogant bullying toerag" (OOTP - SWM), Piers Polkiss was a bully. I don't think Snape has anything in common with Dudley or Piers Polkiss.

The only reason that he does not continue doing his masters bidding is because he's got a crush on lily who's married to James. Well is it not obvious that he's weak minded.

I don't understand. Could you please clarify. Do you think Snape is weak because he was in love with Lily?

Yeah I think so. That's also what made Harry special in Dumbledore's eyes, the ability to feel sorry even for Tom Riddle. But maybe that's more for Dumbledore or Ron thread? And you're asking the wrong person anyway, I'm not a huge Ron fan. :)

That's okay (not being a huge Ron fan that is :)). I was interested in the comparison of their actions mainly.

For me, Snape not asking Voldmeort for James's and Harry's life was the intelligent thing to do with Voldemort. Voldemort would have killed Snape had Snape asked for Harry's life and I also agree Snape at that point did not care either.

Did that make him callous? Yes; but he was a DE at that point. He was callous to a point at that time, otherwise he would not have been a DE at all. Dumbledore was callous about those he would control all for the greater good. He was callous too, until Ariana died and possibly at his hands. That changed him enough to be disgusted by Snape, just like Snape asked Phineas not to call Hermione names because he had changed and grown from the DE he was IMO.

Ron, on the other was aa good guy. He was not callous because he was a DE uncaring about other lives or doing stuff for the greater good like Dumbledore, he was callous, because he did not care as a good guy to save the lives of those just because he knew were bad. He thought those lives were not worth saving or as worthy as his and Harry's lives were.

That was the copmparison I wished to make. If Dumbledore would be disgusted at DE Snape who asked for Lily's life in exchange with James and Harry to Voldmeort and then came running to Dumbeldore, even though he thought there was a good chance he could get killed (he tells Dumbledore not to kill him on the hill) or possibly kissed, so that those important to Lily could be saved, I think Dumbledore would be more than disgusted with Ron. For Ron did not think those lives were worthy enough to be saved, while Snape did even if it was for Lily's sake. (James and Harry)

To conclude, I don't think Snape was wrong in his actions of asking Voldemort only for Lily's life (it showed his intelligence) for he backed that by coming to Dumbeldore, which for me, removes the selfishness and the utter callousness which otherwise would have been attributed to Snape. Which one could attribute to Ron and other "good guys" too IMO.

Yep and if Dumbledore had given Tom Riddle the DADA job, maybe everything would have turned out this way (http://guad.deviantart.com/art/Old-art-Voldys-request-107959265) :lol: ;)

LOL!

What I mean to say that it's rather too easy to blame Dumbledore for things that others (in this case Snape) did wrong.

I am not blaming Dumbeldore. I am merely pointing out something that has canon backing; Dumbeldore being aware of Snape eavesdropping did send him away. That creates waves with enormous consequences IMO.

Much more difficult than tracking and spying on Albus Dumbledore? :no: Had it not been for Aberforth, Snape would've heard the entire prophecy, IMO.

And would have told the whole thing to Voldmeort. Dumbledore knew Snape was eavesdropping; he did not do anything about it IMO.

You say Snape could have done nothing. Sure he could, he could have switched sides and said "these are the boys Voldemort's considering as possibilities and one is the child of Lily Evans Potter. I don't know what he's planning, but there's a possibility that Lily might be in danger. Can you help?" He didn't do that.

For that he would have to know Lily was having a baby first and then, that the boy was born precisely on that day. I don't think Snape would know that. While knowing Lily was pregnant was possible, because he could have seen her at Diagon Alley or elsewhere (which itself is a remote possibility), the exact day of Harry's birth would have been very difficult IMO.

Why would Snape, whom you believe 'knew' Lily would sacrifice herself for her child, believe for a moment that Lily could ever be separated from her child by the likes of Dumbledore so that she - and only she - could be protected? IMO, Snape knew that James was going to be murdered. Did he not think she might die trying to defend her husband, the man she loved?

Which was why he came to Dumbledore IMO.

Well, actually what Ron said was "If we die for them, I'll kill you, Harry!" - which was very silly and tongue in cheek - IMO a bit of comic relief in a tense situation - because if they'd died, well, he'd not be able to kill Harry, would he?

He wanted Harry to come out with him. That IMO means that Ron did not care about saving Goyle or Draco. He stayed back because Harry refused to leave IMO.

Could Snape have asked Dumbledore to spare the life of his hated enemy and his son, the boy Voldemort himself had chosen to kill, if Lily hadn't been involved?

I don't understand the question. Did you mean asking Voldemort to spare their lives?

Or did you mean come running to Dumbledore for James and Harry's life?

In both cases, I think Snape would not have come had Lily not been involved - at that time.

Later, who knows?

For me, Snape not asking Voldmeort for James's and Harry's life was the intelligent thing to do with Voldemort. Voldemort would have killed Snape had Snape asked for Harry's life and I also agree Snape at that point did not care either.

I do think it is possible to interpret canon that way, i.e. that Snape was not in a position to bargain for the lives of James and Harry. That doesn't mean he cared about them at the time though.

Did that make him callous? Yes; but he was a DE at that point. He was callous to a point at that time, otherwise he would not have been a DE at all. Dumbledore was callous about those he would control all for the greater good. He was callous too, until Ariana died and possibly at his hands. That changed him enough to be disgusted by Snape, just like Snape asked Phineas not to call Hermione names because he had changed and grown from the DE he was IMO.

Yes, I agree: both about Snape being callous in his attitude towards James and Harry in 1981, and that later on he changed. :cool:

Ron, on the other was aagood guy. He was not callous because he was a DE uncaring about other lives or doing stuff for the greater good like Dumbledore, he was callous, because he did not care as a good guy to save the lives of those just because he knew were bad. He thought those lives were not worth saving or as worthy as his and Harry's lives were.

I don't think that's an altogether fair comparison of the two situations. :) Ron is literally caught in the heat of the moment: what would you do when faced with a roaring fire? Your first impulse would be to get the heck out of there, saving yourself and your loved one (which is what Ron wants to do, he wants to rescue Hermione). Back there in the flames are two boys who, to all extents and purposes, have been trying to kill you and your friends! Would you go back, to save them? This is fire we're talking about, one of the greatest and most primal fears for a human being. If faced with something else, then maybe Ron would have been a bit more heroic when it came to saving Draco, as Harry was. But this is fire.

As Kat_Suki points out, his comment "If we die for them, I'll kill you, Harry!" is ironically funny in the grim circumstances (and it's like Ron, to crack a bitter joke in such a dire situation).

That was the copmparison I wished to make. If Dumbledore would be disgusted at DE Snape who asked for Lily's life in exchange with James and Harry to Voldmeort and then came running to Dumbeldore, even though he thought there was a good chance he could get killed (he tells Dumbledore not to kill him on the hill) or possibly kissed, so that those important to Lily could be saved, I think Dumbledore would be more than disgusted with Ron. For Ron did not think those lives were worthy enough to be saved, while Snape did even if it was for Lily's sake. (James and Harry)

I absolutely fail to see why Dumbledore would have been 'more' disgusted with Ron in that particular situation than he was with Severus back in 1981, when Severus appeared to care more about Lily's life than he did about James and baby Harry's.

And that's because I think Ron has slightly more mitigating reasons on his side. His reaction is not very noble, but it's all too human. Very few of us would dash into a burning house to save an enemy! (a potentially dangerous enemy at that). That doesn't mean we would rejoice in their death, but we are unlikely to risk life and limb for them, whereas we would for someone we really cared about. All kudos to Harry for bucking the norm here, but I can't really judge Ron -- I've no idea what I would do in that situation. I can only hope I would be a Harry!

But when it comes to the planned murder of an innocent child and its father ... :no: Admittedly, there may not have been anything that twenty-something Severus could have done to try to save James and Harry ... Voldemort was hardly likely to listen to him on that account. :rolleyes: But unfortunately, in his DE phase, Severus did not have any moral qualms about Voldemort taking out other Muggle, or Muggleborn, families.

It's the darkest phase of his life and, like you, I believe he was redeemed from it. But that moment on the hilltop in 1981 hardly begins as his finest.

I must say I'm in deep water when I wrote in this thread, because you guys are so immensely active I haven't got a chance to answer all of this but I will give it a try :P

Do you think Snape is weak because he was in love with Lily?

Of cause not, that's something Voldemort would say :D
I consider it weak of Snape not to tell Lily what/who he felt, I also consider it weak of Snape to join the Death Ethers in the first place. He had by then known Lily for like 6-7 years. And it's a betrayal of her to join 'em since she's muggelborn...

My belief is that Snape was somewhat of a cry-baby until he joined you know who. During that time he became more or less what he is in the end of the series in reverse. Does that make sense ? Anyway when he meets Dumbeldor at that hill he totally changed for Lily's sake. Why did he not just show some backbone earlier and thereby make all the difference.

Why did he not just show some backbone earlier and thereby make all the difference.

Actually, IMO Hilltop!Snape is the least "backboned" version of him we ever get to see. He's on his knees before Dumbledore, pleading for his life, for Merlin's sake... :rolleyes:

My belief is that Snape was somewhat of a cry-baby until he joined you know who.

I must respectfully disagree - there isn't a single scene (unless you're counting "...and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner...", of course) where he is shown, as the definition of the noun you used would have it, "crying or complaining frequently with little cause".

Then again, I'm terribly biased when it comes to the Snarkmaster... Maybe "waves of hatred so powerful that it seemed incredible that Snape could not feel them burning him" really wouldn't register with a Legilimens enough to count as "a big cause" for complaint.

My bronze Knut only, of course... :relax:

Dumbledore knew Snape was eavesdropping; he did not do anything about it IMO.How did Dumbledore know Snape was eavesdropping? Because Aberforth found Snape in the hallway of a public Inn and made a disturbance?

Dumbledore had no way of knowing if Snape, who'd heretofore never been associated as a Death Eater, was Voldemort's spy or had overheard any part of the prophecy at all at this particular point. Also, had Dumbledore left Trelawney to deal with a situation which was already being dealt with by another experienced Order member {Aberforth Dumbledore} he'd have missed hearing the rest of the prophecy OR risked the possibility of any others hearing what he now knew to be a prophecy about the Dark Lord.

It is the prophecy which enabled Dumbledore, IMO, to alert both the Longbottoms and the Potters to the potential dangers to their children that were born in July. IMO, this is why the Potter son was "already in danger" as Jo puts it, at the time of Harry's christening.

So I disagree with the idea that Dumbledore "knew" Snape was eavesdropping and did nothing.
For that he would have to know...I disagree. All Snape would have to know is what potentials his Master was considering. It does not require prior knowledge of pregnancy or birth, just info from his Master. You know, like the same info that Voldemort shared as to which family he was going to murder. Pettigrew was spying on the Order for more than a year before Neville or Harry was born yet it isn't until Harry is fifteen months old that Voldemort makes his move to kill the family.

In all that time, from Neville and Harry's births in July of 1980 and the spying on the Order and the consideration of candidates by Voldemort...Snape couldn't have said "Psst, he's thinking it's down to these two, can you help?" I'm sorry, but I believe that if it had concerned Snape he'd have spoken up. He didn't. He only speaks up when he knows definitively that Lily Evans is marked for death. IMO nothing motivated Snape at all until this.
He wanted Harry to come out with him. That IMO means that Ron did not care about saving Goyle or Draco. He stayed back because Harry refused to leave IMO.IMO, if he'd only stayed back because of Harry and was completely uncaring to the lives of the others who'd just tried to kill them all, then he'd not have acted to help the others. He did.

So for me, the comparison doesn't work.
In both cases, I think Snape would not have come had Lily not been involved - at that time.

Later, who knows?The author knows, of course, and she strongly implies that had it not been for Lily, Snape would not have turned. To me the death of Lily is the path to Snape's redemption. Without it, IMO, he'd be a wholly different and infinitely horrible character.

Look, this is me logging in especially to post this in-thread! :grumble:

I don't know why this still comes as a surprise to some of you but we do have rules and guidelines when it comes to posting in LS:

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Read them, understand them, post according to them. Thank you.

Make a choose before you find yourself with one foot in each door. Don't be a coward like wormtail and hide between the big guy. That's my opinion, straight from the heart.

Can you please point out the places in the books where Snape hides behind the big guy?
In my opinion, he is anything but a coward.

For me, Snape not asking Voldmeort for James's and Harry's life was the intelligent thing to do with Voldemort. Voldemort would have killed Snape had Snape asked for Harry's life and I also agree Snape at that point did not care either.

I completely agree. :)
I really believe Snape didn't care about James and Harry as individuals in the slightest, which was, of course, very callous of him. But I must say I absolutely reject the theory according to which he was ready to dance with glee at the thought of these two being killed. :shrug:

To me the death of Lily is the path to Snape's redemption. Without it, IMO, he'd be a wholly different and infinitely horrible character.
Do you think that, had Lily and her family been saved by Dumbledore, Snape would have returned to serve Voldemort?

Snape does not ask for additional protection for Lily - he just asks for her to be protected. He hasn't even thought of James and Harry - that is what Dumbledore is disgusted at. When Dumbledore points out that two other peoples lives are at risk then Severus says okay save them all. At no point does he say - save them all but I want Lily to have extra protection. Snape is in absolutely no position to start bargaining! On the contrary as we see so clearly it is Dumbledore who holds all the cards, and Dumbledore who quite clearly calls the shots. The fact that Snape is surprised by Dumbledores words and his choice of action shows how far Snape is from understanding Dumbledore's mentality and how engrained he has become into DE ways of thinking.

My opinion was stated in such a way as to make Snape's request clear. Snape was asking for protection only for Lily - he doesn't ask nor care what Dumbledore might do for the rest of the family. If that if what you are saying also, then we agree. That is what makes sense because otherwise why would Dumbledore ask "what will you do for me?" As was pointed out, Snape knew that by merely giving the information he was "doing something for the other side and that Dumbledore would attempt to protect the family" - so Snape had done all the giving up to that point.

And I find speculating that Snape was asking for Lily's protection to be above and beyond that which Dumbledore would give the other Potters as akin to speculating Dumbledore might have become a Dark Lord.

"Above and beyond" means that Snape's only concern is Lily's safety. In other words if Dumbledore said only: "I will keep Lily safe, but I doubt I can keep the rest of the family safe" Snape would have been happy. He went there to get Lily protected and that is why Dumbledore could in return, make further requests from him, despite the fact that Snape had already handed over valuable information and Dumbledore had done nothing for him. After the fact, Snape moaned to Dumbledore: "you promised to keep her safe" - that had been his request and Dumbledore had failed to keep his promise, in Snape's opinion.

I respect your opinion. However, in my opinoin, as we were talking about Snape's meeting on the hillside with Dumbledore, in which we were discussing whether or not Snape was fearful of Dumbledore, I happen think it is relevant.

Oh I didn't mean that it should not be discussed if people have a relevant point to make. :lol:. I merely meant it held no relevance to my point which was about Snape's request. :tu:

Pardon me for saying (writing) this, and I'm presumably going to get a lot of **** for it but I honestly consider Snape being a disgusting coward. The only reason that he does not continue doing his masters bidding is because he's got a crush on lily who's married to James. Well is it not obvious that he's weak minded. If he would really care for lily he would have stood up to the dark lord a long time ago. If he really cared he would not meddle in dark magic and help the dark lord to kill other muggelborns. Either one do this or that. One does not be a Death Eather and have a desire for a muggelborn girl.

Make a choose before you find yourself with one foot in each door. Don't be a coward like wormtail and hide between the big guy. That's my opinion, straight from the heart.

Welcome. Your opinion is as respectable as anyone else's. :tu:. I agree with you. JKR said that like wormtail, Snape was vulnerable and insecure. That is likely why he behaved in a cowardly manner at this point in his life, much as Peter did.

Would you go back, to save them?

I am ashamed to say, I'll probably grab anyone who's in the line of my escape, but would not go back into the fire to save someone. I'd love to say I would go back; but in a situation like that, it is more likely I may not. Unless it was someone I cared for. Then I would go back, which is pretty selfish I agree.

But Snape was not like me; he was like Harry. For, Snape was faced with precisely the same choices in a diferent manner, when he was standing in front of a master who would not hesitate to kill him, when Voldemort announced that he had chosen Harry Potter IMO.

Harry Potter from that moment onwards became the enemy of Voldemort and by extension all his followers, including Snape. To ask Voldemort the life of Harry was equal to suicide IMO.

James was man Snape hated, loathed and utterly disliked. And it was a public fact. To ask for James['s life was to ask Voldmeort to suspect him as a traitor and a spy IMO.

Snape would not have been able to ask for Lily's life either, but the world knew Snape had been close friends with Lily. He could ask for her by telling Voldmeort he desired her and begging him for her life in exchange for Harry and James's IMO.

Had Snape stopped there, then he was like Ron, who wanted to simply get out of danger and at that point only Harry was important enough to save for him, like Lily for Snape. But Snape was not like Ron. He was like Harry who went for Draco and Goyle; he did not care for Golye, he knew Draco did and he owed Draco for not recognising them and he saved Goyle. Perhaps there were other reasons too; perhaps Harry saved them because he could.

Snape, while not caring a wee bit for James because they hated one another or Harry, the boy he had never seen, knew that Lily loved them. He came running to Dumbledore for Lily's sake, so that Dumbeldore may protect James and Harry and thereby protect Lily IMO.

I think that was very brave of him and was not wrong either.

It's the darkest phase of his life and, like you, I believe he was redeemed from it. But that moment on the hilltop in 1981 hardly begins as his finest.

I think that was one of Snape's finest moments. He came thinking Dumbledore would kill him. He came and did not justify any of his past actions, which were not very worthy (passing over the prophecy and being a DE for example); he takes Dumbledore's disgust and promises to do anything.

I think Snape was absolutely brilliant on the hill, considering he came in despair, guilt, and total fear. But still he came; he stood there and he took everything, wanting only Lily's life to be protected and for Lily's sake James and Harry's too. For that he was willing to do anything, always!

How did Dumbledore know Snape was eavesdropping? Because Aberforth found Snape in the hallway of a public Inn and made a disturbance?

The interview took plaace in Trelawney's room, which was up the stairs. Snape was caught eavesdropping by Aberforth and he was dragged inside, when Trelawney had finished the prophecy.

In hindsight we know Snape heard only half the prophecy. Since Aberforth brought Snape to Dumbledore in Trelawney's room, before Dumbledore had left, I think Aberforth got Snape inside as soon as he had caught him.

It is reasonable to suppose Dumbledore would have thought about Snape overhearing, since Trelawney says she thought Snape was eavesdropping in HBP, that is what Aberforth would have said as well.

What did Dumbelore do? Did he assume Snape would not have heard or would he assume Snape would have. Personally I think Dumbledore would always go on the assumption Snape heard everything.

We also don't have anything to tell us Snape was checked for Trelawney who gives us information on this does not say anything about Snape being questioned. So I conclude Snape was allowed to go without Dumbeldore saying anything to him. Which means Dumbledore deliberately allowed Snape to leave IMO.

Dumbledore had no way of knowing if Snape, who'd heretofore never been associated as a Death Eater, was Voldemort's spy or had overheard any part of the prophecy at all at this particular point.

No; that was IMO all the more reason he should have checked, when Snape was brought in because he was caught standing outside Trelawney's door IMO.

"Above and beyond" means that Snape's only concern is Lily's safety. In other words if Dumbledore said only: "I will keep Lily safe, but I doubt I can keep the rest of the family safe" Snape would have been happy. He went there to get Lily protected and that is why Dumbledore could in return, make further requests from him, despite the fact that Snape had already handed over valuable information and Dumbledore had done nothing for him. .
Actually 'Above and beyond' means 'more than', so in saying the following:

Snape went and made a personal plea, offering information in order to get Dumbledore to agree to grant Lily protection - above and beyond what Dumbledore would do for the rest of the family.

you are saying that Snape wanted Lily to have more protection than James and Harry. What I am saying is that there is no evidence to support this idea. He wanted Lily protected. Period. He told Dumbledore that her life was specifically in danger - more than would be the case for an order member - because of the prophecy. Dumbledore's response is - And what about her husband and child? To which Snape's response is effectively what about them? Then after much prompting he says fine protect them all - as long as Lily is protected.

After the fact, Snape moaned to Dumbledore: "you promised to keep her safe" - that had been his request and Dumbledore had failed to keep his promise, in Snape's opinion
He was grieving for crying out loud! That is like saying that Harry threw a hissy fit and blamed Dumbledore for Black's death!

He was smart enough to realize that A) getting killed on sight would mean he could not get his message out at all - what good would that do? and B) Dumbledore and the Order Members don't kill on sight like the DEs do. They do try to capture first and respond in Self Defense - Snape knew this, he'd been a DE for quite some time.

I saw Snape's acts as representing a selfish desire to be with Lily on his part, and you see it as his merely wanting her alive (if I'm not mistaken) - so we are pretty far apart on our viewpoints.

So Snape is smart enough to "know" that Dumbledore - the only wizard Voldemort fears - won't kill him, but he is not smart enough to realise that Lily wouldn't want anything to do with him, even though they parted on terms of animosity and have had no contact for years?
If Snape really wanted Lily to "possess her" why didn't he do something about it before? Why wait until her life is in danger?

Actually 'Above and beyond' means 'more than', so in saying the following:

you are saying that Snape wanted Lily to have more protection than James and Harry.

I understood you took my words to mean that - which is why I clarified.

What I am saying is that there is no evidence to support this idea. He wanted Lily protected. Period. He told Dumbledore that her life was specifically in danger - more than would be the case for an order member - because of the prophecy. Dumbledore's response is - And what about her husband and child? To which Snape's response is effectively what about them? Then after much prompting he says fine protect them all - as long as Lily is protected.

I think we agree on this. :lol:. Snape's only request (as far as he was concerned) was to keep Lily safe. So my point was that Dumbledore understood that - and as a result asked Snape 'and what will you do for me in return?'. So Dumbledore made it appear as though he would heed Snape's request - not the request he forced him to make (hide them all then), but the part that Snape was concerned with "just keep her safe". He was playing Snape, imo.

He was grieving for crying out loud! That is like saying that Harry threw a hissy fit and blamed Dumbledore for Black's death!

I am not sure what you mean by this. Harry did throw a hissy fit - destroying Dumbledore's office, then he blamed Snape for Black's death. But I don't know how that is relevant to what happened with Snape. Harry went to the MOM of his own accord - not to Dumbledore to elicit promises of safety for Sirius.

So Snape is smart enough to "know" that Dumbledore - the only wizard Voldemort fears - won't kill him,

Let's put it this way - I feel that if Snape feared - truly feared that Dumbledore would kill him on sight, and not give him a chance to make his request, then he would not have approached him without some sort of advance notice that he was coming in peace. There was of course a chance that Dumbledore might feel Snape had come to kill him and strike out in self defense. So Snape had to call out his warning, "don't kill me" and explain himself.

but he is not smart enough to realise that Lily wouldn't want anything to do with him, even though they parted on terms of animosity and have had no contact for years? If Snape really wanted Lily to "possess her" why didn't he do something about it before? Why wait until her life is in danger?

Well I have not used the term "possess her" except in terms of Voldemort's thoughts. He believed that is what Snape wanted and so he was going to spare her (if she wasn't too much trouble as he put it) and then place her in Snape's possession so he could fulfill his 'desires'. That was Voldemort's thinking.

As for Snape, that is what he knew Voldemort was thinking and so he understood that if the dark lord spared her (which he did not have faith in), then Voldemort would deliver her to him (if all went according to his request). As for why he did not attempt to "possess" Lily earlier: there were two reasons. It was never Snape's desire to "possess her" in the way I think you mean (some sort of force invovled) - he wanted her to love him. Second, Snape had no means of getting Lily to love him. Not only was she uninterested in him romantically, as you pointed out, they ended their friendship on bad terms and were no longer even friends. So he had no hope in that regard...

...Until the opportunity arose in this scenario. Now, he had a means to have Lily delivered to him - serving not only as her savior when Voldemort killed her entire family and spared her because of Snape's request, but also her savior after the fact because he wasn't going to "use" her in the way Voldemort would indicate. He would simply be the impressive one who had saved her when her husband could not. Power - it is all about power to Snape and he felt Lily would be impressed with that most of all. In his eyes, that was why she had chosen to be with her husband. It was like with Petunia, she would be upset at losing her family, but she'd get over it eventually and at that point, Snape would be the knight in shining armor. I am fairly certain he had no plans to tell her he'd delivered the prophecy in the first place - but even if she found out, he figured she'd understand he'd not known it meant them and had moved to intercede once he'd found out she was targeted and had the "power" to save her - if not her family. He took that attitude with Dumbledore - why would he take a different attitude with Lily? He had not taken a sympathetic attitude when Lily lost her sister's friendship - that was Snape's mentality, imo. Lily would come around eventually and recognize Snape's power had saved her.

Do you think that, had Lily and her family been saved by Dumbledore, Snape would have returned to serve Voldemort?You mean other than in a spy capacity for the Order? Always a possibility, but I don't think so. Snape told Dumbledore if he saved Lily he'd do "anything" so he was in a manner, beholden. IMO, it is the literal death of Lily, though, that turns Snape from Voldemort and the Death Eaters forever.
The interview took plaace in Trelawney's room, which was up the stairs. Snape was caught eavesdropping by Aberforth and he was dragged inside, when Trelawney had finished the prophecy.

In hindsight we know Snape heard only half the prophecy. Since Aberforth brought Snape to Dumbledore in Trelawney's room, before Dumbledore had left, I think Aberforth got Snape inside as soon as he had caught him.Oh! See I never read that passage like that TGW, as though Snape were being dragged into the room to have Albus confront him. That's an interesting thought, though I admit it doesn't really follow how I visually see that instant occurring, but I respect that this is how you perceive it.

For me, the way that passage unfolds shows that Dumbledore went to call upon Trelawney in her private room at the Hog's Head Inn. Then, as Dumbledore starts to say his goodbyes and is moving towards the door, Trelawney goes into her trance and begins to give the prophecy, and Dumbledore whirls about, startled. Shortly after the prophecy began, Snape was found in the hallway of the public Inn and never actually entered Trelawney's room. Aberforth confronted him in the hallway outside of her room, the door flew open in the kerfluffle, and there the two are seen standing in the hallway by both Trelawney and Albus Dumbledore seconds before Snape is tossed unceremoniously from the Inn by Aberforth. Meanwhile, Albus remains in the room with Trelawney as the she reels off the rest of the prophecy."On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn. I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher...""...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!"
"What?"
"Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore."So how I perceive that instance is completely different from how you appear to interpret it.

Trelawney does say she rather thought that Snape was eavesdropping, however, at the time, she was supposed to be in a trance giving a prophecy, a prophecy that she has no memory of giving. I'm not sure her perceptions were the best at that point in time {well anytime, actually}. :lol:

It's already established in canon that Snape had been spying that night, and I'm not disputing that fact. But I'm just not convinced that Dumbledore [1] knew Snape had overheard anything at that point, or [2] even suspected that Snape was a spy for Voldemort. Perhaps if Trelawney could have recalled accusations of eavesdropping or spying rather than simply parroting Snape's excuses of taking the wrong way up the stairs, it would be more helpful. There remains the possibility that anyone could have taken the wrong way and ended up in a public hallway of the Inn.
No; that was IMO all the more reason he should have checked, when Snape was brought in because he was caught standing outside Trelawney's door IMO.Well, again, we perceive it differently. I disagree that he should have checked. He had his brother and fellow Order member take out the riffraff for loitering in the hallway while he himself stayed behind to hear the remainder of the prophecy. Now, that's not to say that if Dumbledore wished he could have said "Hold him for questioning."

I still feel, however, that the idea of Dumbledore somehow not detaining Snape places blame at Dumbledore's feet rather than at Snape's, where it firmly belongs.

He was doing what he'd been ordered to do by his Master. He had zero idea what his Master would do with the info he passed on. Once he knew definitively that Lily Potter was marked for death he asked favors from Dumbledore and Voldemort, the two most powerful wizards on the planet, in order to try and save Lily. Both of those wizards failed him and Lily was killed.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Harry did throw a hissy fit - destroying Dumbledore's office, then he blamed Snape for Black's death. But I don't know how that is relevant to what happened with Snape. Harry went to the MOM of his own accord - not to Dumbledore to elicit promises of safety for Sirius.Actually Harry also blamed Dumbledore for keeping him "locked up" as it were. It is relevant here for comparitive purposes. When people are grieving they experience very powerful emotions that cause them to say and do things that they would not normally say and do, and that they don't really mean. This is what Snape was doing when he "reminded" Dumbledore of his promise to keep Lily safe.

Actually Harry also blamed Dumbledore for keeping him "locked up" as it were. It is relevant here for comparitive purposes. When people are grieving they experience very powerful emotions that cause them to say and do things that they would not normally say and do, and that they don't really mean. This is what Snape was doing when he "reminded" Dumbledore of his promise to keep Lily safe.

I respect your view, but I think if that is what JKR meant to indicate, she would have had Dumbledore react to Snape as he did to Harry. He was very patient, loving and kind to Harry, accepting the blame and telling him to destroy more things if it made him feel better. :lol:. However, with Snape, Dumbledore didn't even accept responsibility; he immediately turned the tables on Snape and reminded him that he'd placed his faith in Voldemort. He did not encourage him to continue to whine and was abupt in his behavior, imo. Then Dumbledore finished off by getting another promise out of Snape, based on emotional debt and holding Snape as the guilty party, not himself.

Dumbledore was dealing with Snape at a time when his Death Eater values were still a part of his mentality. It was early days yet. The most correct way to address the situation would have been to ask Snape to help protect Harry because his act of carrying the prophecy had wound up leading to his being an Orphan. And if Snape had any regret and remorse for his part in the deaths of Lily and James, he would do this thing. But that would entail Snape being sorry about James' death and Harry being left an orphan - and sorry for Lily's death in completely selfless terms (not that he'd lost something, but because she had been killed and what that meant in terms of her loss of life). Snape had not reached that point, his emotional breakdown was selfishly focused on his own loss, imo. So Dumbledore had to work with what he had. This is completely different than what Dumbledore had to deal with when speaking to Harry after Black's death.

As I see it the reason for Dumbledore's abruptness with him was becuse he was genuinely concerned about his state of mind. Severus is quite obviously suicidal at this point and Dumbledore knows it is vital to try and give Severus a purpose in life. What Dumbledore does is he takes Snape's love for Lily and gives it a new direction - Harry. Snape is tasked with protecting Harry for his own good as much as for Harry's.
My point remains though that it unfair and unkind to belittle Snape for "moaning" that Dumbledore failed to keep his promise to keep Lily safe when the man is so obviously in so much distress.

But Snape himself says that it's for Lilys sake. When Dumbledore says that he thought that Snape might have grown fond of Harry (or somehting liek that) Snape answers all offended. "HIM??!!!" and throws Bambi's mum the doe at Dumbledore :lol:

No., he does not say he is doing anything for Lily's sake. The question he is avoiding is not "Why are you willing to kill me?" but "Have you come to care for the boy?"

I presume Snape had agreed to kill Dumbledore for the reason Dumbledore gave him right before he agreed, as an act of mercy to spare an old man needless pan and suffering. I don't really see what that has to do with really getting into the spirit of the fight against Voldemort. Now, if the reason he had agreed was "Think what it would do for your cover, Severus!", I would agree. But that reason is not even hinted at, anywhere in the dialogues between Albus and Severus.

I don't think that's an altogether fair comparison of the two situations. :) Ron is literally caught in the heat of the moment: what would you do when faced with a roaring fire? Your first impulse would be to get the heck out of there, saving yourself and your loved one (which is what Ron wants to do, he wants to rescue Hermione). Back there in the flames are two boys who, to all extents and purposes, have been trying to kill you and your friends! Would you go back, to save them? This is fire we're talking about, one of the greatest and most primal fears for a human being. If faced with something else, then maybe Ron would have been a bit more heroic when it came to saving Draco, as Harry was. But this is fire.


We did not see the situation, but it could very well have been analogous. Snape, face-to-face with Voldemort, among other Death Eaters, when Voldemort announces he is going after the Potters. What if Snape reacted right then? Begged for the life of a Muggleborn, for goodness' sake, in that company? This is, to paraphrase your post, Voldemort. What might Snape have seen him do, over his time as a Death Eater? I would suggest that at least for Snape (and most other people who knew Voldemort personally), that might be a pretty big fear. This, anyway, is how I take Snape's occasional, unconscious reaching for his Dark Mark, and his request that Harry not use Voldmeort's name in his presence.

To me, anyway, the whole scene of the hill reeks of haste and lack of premeditation; I tend to believe his early interactions with Voldemort on the same topic were likewise.

I absolutely fail to see why Dumbledore would have been 'more' disgusted with Ron in that particular situation than he was with Severus back in 1981, when Severus appeared to care more about Lily's life than he did about James and baby Harry's.

This I do wish to be clear on. I think Snape and Ron were acting on similar, primal fears, thinking only of their loved ones in a situation of extreme danger. But Ron was not in any way responsible for the situation he found himself in, whereas Snape, of course, was, both specifically because of the Prophecy, and more generally because of his service to Voldemort.

That doesn't mean we would rejoice in their death, but we are unlikely to risk life and limb for them, whereas we would for someone we really cared about.

Which to me, describes what Snape is doing on the hill to a T. The planned murder you refer to, was not his plan, it was something he learned about that he could have chosen to do something about. (In fact, he did, but he had other reasons for doing so).

Why did he not just show some backbone earlier and thereby make all the difference.

What difference is that?

We did not see the situation, but it could very well have been analogous. Snape, face-to-face with Voldemort, among other Death Eaters, when Voldemort announces he is going after the Potters. What if Snape reacted right then? Begged for the life of a Muggleborn, for goodness' sake, in that company? This is, to paraphrase your post, Voldemort. What might Snape have seen him do, over his time as a Death Eater? I would suggest that at least for Snape (and most other people who knew Voldemort personally), that might be a pretty big fear. This, anyway, is how I take Snape's occasional, unconscious reaching for his Dark Mark, and his request that Harry not use Voldmeort's name in his presence.

Oh, I can totally buy all of the above. :tu: I was responding to a POV that seemed to regard Ron as more culpable, or at least as culpable, as Snape, re: the very natural desire for self-preservation (bearing in mind that Ron's first priority as the Fiendfyre attacked was to save Hermione, the girl he loved, and that Snape's first priority was to save Lily, the woman he loved.)

To me, anyway, the whole scene of the hill reeks of haste and lack of premeditation; I tend to believe his early interactions with Voldemort on the same topic were likewise.

I agree with this.

This I do wish to be clear on. I think Snape and Ron were acting on similar, primal fears, thinking only of their loved ones in a situation of extreme danger. But Ron was not in any way responsible for the situation he found himself in, whereas Snape, of course, was, both specifically because of the Prophecy, and more generally because of his service to Voldemort.

And I agree with this, on all points. :)

To me, anyway, the whole scene of the hill reeks of haste and lack of premeditation; I would tend to disagree in that there had to be some degree of premeditation just setting up the meet between himself and Dumbledore, where/when/alone etc...

Other than that though, I agree, he had his request ready...save Lily...the rest was off the cuff, IMO.

My point remains though that it unfair and unkind to belittle Snape for "moaning" that Dumbledore failed to keep his promise to keep Lily safe when the man is so obviously in so much distress.

I respect your view, but Dumbledore was unkind and belittling Snape and I agree with Dumbledore's view of the situation. Snape's distress was selfish and he placed himself in the position he was in, as Dumbledore pointed out, placing his faith in Voldemort and then he sat there distressed for the wrong reason. I feel he tried to play Dumbledore too, but you can't play the master player. Snape was not the victim; but the offender, who ends up suffering for his offense. James, Lily and Harry were the victims. This was not time to dole out sympathy for Snape, in Dumbledore's view, but lesson time, imo. To me it's like having sympathy for Darth Vader as he suffers incredible pain from feeling billions of people dying in the Force when he allowed a world to be blown up against his will. Too bad - suffer on.

What difference is that? Well I cannot speak for obliviated, but I would imagine the difference would be standing up for what is right early on. That is, for not killing muggleborns and muggles just because you don't particularly like them and want power. And not dedicating a portion of your life to learning to harm and harming others with dark magic. It takes bravery and dedication to turn away from these things when they have become a big part of your life - that is the backbone I feel Snape lacked.

the very natural desire for self-preservation (bearing in mind that Ron's first priority as the Fiendfyre attacked was to save Hermione, the girl he loved, and that Snape's first priority was to save Lily, the woman he loved.)

To me these two situations are far from analogous. Ron wasn't a death eater, he was trying to save death eaters, who had just tried to kill him. Snape was a Death Eater, trying to save just one of the three people he'd helped set up for death. Ron went in, risking both his and Hermione's lives, directly and saved Goyle. Snape's risk was far less as it was indirect. Ron was doing the right thing which he determined to do all on his own with a ridiculous threat tossed off. Snape was doing the wrong thing, which he also determined to do all on his own and had to be chastised into even thinking about the right thing to do. Ron was considering the lives of all of his friends, he never mentioned Hermione as the basis for his off the cuff statement, nor placed any special emphasis on her safety in that situation - just the opposite of Snape, imo. And Snape's motive was immoral even if one does make the direct comparison between the females they could have been considering, whereas Ron's was righteous, imo.

It is hard to compare Snape with some of the others in canon because he was either in an evil phase or a grey phase. Most of the others were either dedicated to evil or good and so their motives are properly judged on a different basis, imo. Ron not doing the right thing as a good sider is a different analysis than Snape not doing the right thing as a Death Eater, imo.

To me it's like having sympathy for Darth Vader as he suffers incredible pain from feeling billions of people dying in the Force when he allowed a world to be blown up against his will. Too bad - suffer on.

:shrug: This comparison makes little sense to me. Darth Vader did nothing to try and stop Alderaan from being destroyed, just went along with Tarkin's method of blackmail. Snape put himself in danger and did all he could to try and prevent the situation he caused by delivering the Prophecy.

:shrug: This comparison makes little sense. Darth Vader did nothing to try and stop Alderaan from being destroyed, just went along with Tarkin's method of blackmail. Snape put himself in danger and did all he could to try and prevent the situation he caused by delivering the Prophecy.

Actually he did try to stop Tarkin from using the Death Star against Dantooine - he wanted to use the Force to take out the rebels. But he was in a worse situation than Snape and couldn't force the point. However, my emphasis was on the aftermath because after Tarkin changed targets, he could have used the Force to stop him and didn't and then Vader is written to have felt immense suffering when the world was destroyed - just as Snape had in the aftermath of his offense and his inappropriate attempt at bringing a halt to the situation, imo. There is no sympathy on my part - and apparently on Dumbledore's part - for offenders who suffer the spoils of their offense.

Oh, I see that's in a book? Thanks for explaining the instance you were referring to. I don't know that occasion from the Expanded Universe at all, I'm afraid. And that would just start a discussion about what is canon or not in relation to Geroge Lucas' films. :lol:

There is no sympathy on my part - and apparently on Dumbledore's part - for offenders who suffer the spoils of their offense.

In that case does Dumbledore feel that he should continue to suffer for the pain he caused others too? However, I suspect Dumbledore understands remorse and those (like Snape) who strive to atone for their mistakes and change, he has after all walked in those shoes, imho.

Oh, I see that's in a book? Thanks for explaining the instance you were referring to. I don't know that occasion from the Expanded Universe at all, I'm afraid. And that would just start a discussion about what is canon or not in relation to Geroge Lucas' films. :lol:

Yeah, but it is canon, George wrote the ANH book and voiced the commentary.

In that case does Dumbledore feel that he should continue to suffer for the pain he caused others too? However, I suspect Dumbledore understands remorse and those who strive to atone for their mistakes and change, he has after all walked in those shoes, imho.

Well I don't mean in a masochistic way. I feel Dumbledore did want Snape to suffer in the wake of his wrong, so he could find sorrow for what he had done - remorse. At that point, Snape wasn't feeling sorrow for the right thing, which is why I feel Dumbledore was not behaving in a kind and sympethetic manner toward Snape in that scene. He was actually trying to encourage proper remorse and atonement, imo.

It takes bravery and dedication to turn away from these things when they have become a big part of your life - that is the backbone I feel Snape lacked.

Snape at the point he turned had nothing else than being Voldemort's DE. That was not just a big part of his life, but that was his life, period IMO. He had lost the girl he loved; he had no background to speak of, not much money, no status and no friend like Lily. All he had was his DEship.

And I think it took an enormous amount of courage for Snape to arrange to meet Dumbledore on the hill and then to continue his work from then on until he died.

Snape did turn away fom everything and started out as nothing and lived with the suspicion (from other Order members) all his life and still gave better than his best. For me, that's admirable and extremely brave.

Snape at the point he turned had nothing else than being Voldemort's DE. That was not just a big part of his life, but that was his life, period IMO. He had lost the girl he loved; he had no background to speak of, not much money, no status and no friend like Lily. All he had was his DEship.

I respect the other portions of your post, but the above was the only part I was talking about. To pull himself out of that, would require backbone, because it would entail not joining the DEs, despite it being 'all he had'. In this instance, all he had was a very bad thing - killing innocents for wrongful reasons and his focus upon harm.

This goes to what I was saying above. His mentality had to undergo a change and that is why Dumbledore did not have sympathy for him in the aftermath of Lily's death. He threw the victims in his face (they were killed for their trust, not Snape), then he threw the only victim Snape cared about in his face (her eyes would no longer be seen by those on earth, not Snape's), then threw the Orphan victim Harry in his face (he had no parents and would be hunted by a madman, not Snape). Because Snape was only dwelling on himself as a victim, but he wasn't the victim - he was the offender suffering what his offense had wrought. Dumbledore's point was "get over yourself". All the talk of wanting to die and moaning and such was evidence that Snape was focusing on the wrong thing and Dumbledore tried to bring Snape around to where his focus should be. In that way he could find some proper remorse and get onto the road toward atonement. Dumbledore's efforts only half worked, imo.

IMHO, trying to compare the hundreds of deaths Darth Vader caused (including those of defenseless beings, some of which were children) and the wrongs of Severus Snape boggles my mind. I can go on but it's too off topic to comment on any further...

IMHO, trying to compare the hundreds of deaths Darth Vader caused (including those of defenseless beings, some of which were children) and the wrongs of Severus Snape boggles my mind. I can go on but it's too off topic to comment on any further...

It was billions actually. But it wasn't the number of deaths being compared, it was the suffering of an offender in the aftermath of his offense, which was what Dumbledore was trying to point out to Snape. One billion victims or just three - it doesn't matter relative to the point - the point is that the victims are the focus, not the victimizer (assuming the offender is looking for remorse).

You spoke of the hundreds of deaths - and that is where Vader's focus was, on the billions of deaths and the suffering he felt in the Force as each life expired. But I was so happy you went on to say "including those of defenseless beings, some of which were children" because that is the focus and should have been Vaders focus - their suffering, their loss, not his. Same with Snape - sitting their focused on his own suffering and loss rather than on the suffering and loss he had caused the defenseless and innocent people that got killed as a result of what he'd done. And the fact that his attempt to rectify was inadequately focused on only 1 victim as well. Dumbledore was attempting to get him to see what you saw - what every offender should see. There is no suffering greater than that which was caused - the suffering of the dead victims and orphan victim. James standing there as a barrier and giving his life to give his wife time to get away - the seconds of immense suffering then - Lily distraught and barracading the room, her emotions overwrought as she sees the green flash of light and screams in agony for her husband then must stand there in further agony and pain trying to convince a dark lord not to kill her son and giving her life to save him. And little Harry who would relive the sounds and sights of his parent's deaths and the menacing figure of Voldemort and suffer long days. The true victims, the focus of what Snape's offense had wrought - the proper focus for his remorse, imo. Naturally neither offender can know the details of exactly what occurred as they were not there, but the point is upon whom the focus should be directed - on the victimized, not upon one's self.

It takes bravery and dedication to turn away from these things when they have become a big part of your life - that is the backbone I feel Snape lacked.Well in that case then Snape showed a geat deal of bravery and dedication because he not only turned away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters, but he actively fought against them, and had the extreme courage to go back and face the master legilimens Voldemort when he was actually working against him. - And he did this not only before Lily died but also some fourteen years or so after Lily had died, at a point when Dumbledore made it quite clear that Snape could back out if he wanted. By your own definition I think that Snape showed both bravery and dedication and demonstrated that he most certainly had backbone.

I feel Dumbledore did want Snape to suffer in the wake of his wrong, so he could find sorrow for what he had done - remorse. At that point, Snape wasn't feeling sorrow for the right thing, which is why I feel Dumbledore was not behaving in a kind and sympethetic manner toward Snape in that scene. He was actually trying to encourage proper remorse and atonement, imo.
I do not think that Dumbledore is so arrogant or judgemental as to think that he can determine whether or not Severus is feeling "proper remorse". On the contrary Dumbledore was shown to be very understanding and very humble and very tolerant of the mistakes and shortcomings of others. (In the last book we were shown why this was so) I also think that Dumbledore was very much aware that Severus was feeling suicidal, and as such was more concerned about his mental state than whether or not he was feeling "proper remorse." It is recognised as a good thing to get depressed people to think about the needs of others.

I would also like to point out again that Severus Snape did not murder Lily and James Potter. Voldemort murdered Lily and James Potter. While Severus holds some responsibilty for their deaths it is minimal compared to Voldemort's who actually killed them and Peter Pettigrew's who was put in a position of trust by "his friends" and deliberately and willfully betrayed them knowing they would be killed. I do not think that there is a court anywhere in the world that would even hear the case against Snape as an accessory to murder yet alone convict him!

Well in that case then Snape showed a geat deal of bravery and dedication because he not only turned away from Voldemort and the Death Eaters, but he actively fought against them, and had the extreme courage to go back and face the master legilimens Voldemort when he was actually working against him. - And he did this not only before Lily died but also some fourteen years or so after Lily had died, at a point when Dumbledore made it quite clear that Snape could back out if he wanted. By your own definition I think that Snape showed both bravery and dedication and demonstrated that he most certainly had backbone.

Well we are talking about different points of his life. I was speaking about when he joined the Death Eaters in his younger days. That was the first juncture where he could have stood up and shown more backbone. That was in response to someone indicating that everything you mentioned above could have happened sooner if he'd shown that backbone sooner.


I do not think that Dumbledore is so arrogant or judgemental as to think that he can determine whether or not Severus is feeling "proper remorse". On the contrary Dumbledore was shown to be very understanding and very humble and very tolerant of the mistakes and shortcomings of others. (In the last book we were shown why this was so) I also think that Dumbledore was very much aware that Severus was feeling suicidal, and as such was more concerned about his mental state than whether or not he was feeling "proper remorse." It is recognised as a good thing to get depressed people to think about the needs of others.

Well we would have to agree to disagree on this. Dumbledore's attitude was rude and unsympathetic prior to Snape's declaration that he wished he were dead, so I would have to disagree that Dumbledore was thinking in those terms. You don't tell someone who is feeling suicidal "You recall her eyes, her green eyes" - that is enough to send them right over the edge, imo.

I would also like to point out again that Severus Snape did not murder Lily and James Potter. Voldemort murdered Lily and James Potter. While Severus holds some responsibilty for their deaths it is minimal compared to Voldemort's who actually killed them and Peter Pettigrew's who was put in a position of trust by "his friends" and deliberately and willfully betrayed them knowing they would be killed. I do not think that there is a court anywhere in the world that would even hear the case against Snape as an accessory to murder yet alone convict him!

If Snape hadn't taken the prophecy to Voldemort, Voldemort could not have acted on the Prophecy - nor enlisted Peter to help him do so. So I would disagree. We would have to just agree to disagree on this point. And I feel that Snape correctly blamed himself too - and Dumbledore and Harry correctly blamed him for it as well. Peter and Voldemort also do not escape - they were both correctly blamed by others that knew of their deeds too. This was the trio that joined together on the offensive and served to cause the Potter's demise, imo. JKR pegged them, Snape and Peter, the insecure and vulnerable, and the big man that they stood behind in their personal quests for power and I agree with her.

It was billions actually. But it wasn't the number of deaths being compared, it was the suffering of an offender in the aftermath of his offense, which was what Dumbledore was trying to point out to Snape. One billion victims or just three - it doesn't matter relative to the point - the point is that the victims are the focus, not the victimizer (assuming the offender is looking for remorse).

I meant to type hundreds of thousands but whatever the number Vader killed with his own hands, repeatedly. And not just killed... massacred. Severus felt grief over Lily's death and remorse for his part in the whole thing, which in no way shape or form was anywhere close to the part that Vader played in the deaths of thousands. Severus spent years working on the side of good because it was the right thing to do... regardless of his initial motive...


You spoke of the hundreds of deaths - and that is where Vader's focus was, on the billions of deaths and the suffering he felt in the Force as each life expired. But I was so happy you went on to say "including those of defenseless beings, some of which were children" because that is the focus and should have been Vaders focus - their suffering, their loss, not his.

I'm sorry, but did Vader feel remorse or think about those poor people or did he just suffer because he felt their suffering through the force... as in there was pain involved because of his connection to the force and not any emotional connection to these people. If Vader suffered over the loss of the people of Alderaan then did he suffer at those he tortured and killed afterward, either by his own hand or by the orders he gave?

Do you think Snape cried over Lily and sounded like a wounded animal because he would never see her again or simply because she no longer lived? Do you think it was "Oh poor Lily!" or "Poor me!" I think it was both.

Same with Snape - sitting their focused on his own suffering and loss rather than on the suffering and loss he had caused the defenseless and innocent people that got killed as a result of what he'd done.

What had he done? Do we know like we know for certain what Darth Vader did with his own hands? Not comparable. Dumbledore says "How many people have you stood by and watched die?" Watched. Not killed. Not tortured. For all we know Snape was a nobody before he delivered the prophecy... not Voldemort's favorite DE... not the go to guy to do his bidding.

And the fact that his attempt to rectify was inadequately focused on only 1 victim as well.

And he changes for the better after this, even if he wasn't a nice guy. And even when he focused on Lily he was still thinking of someone other than himself.

Dumbledore was attempting to get him to see what you saw - what every offender should see. There is no suffering greater than that which was caused - the suffering of the dead victims and orphan victim.

Dumbledore was giving him a purpose to go on living... and transferring the love he felt for Lily towards protecting her son... and IMHO as a result of this and being around Dumbledore he grew as a person, even if he wasn't perfect, he was better than where he was before.

James standing there as a barrier and giving his life to give his wife time to get away - the seconds of immense suffering then - Lily distraught and barracading the room, her emotions overwrought as she sees the green flash of light and screams in agony for her husband then must stand there in further agony and pain trying to convince a dark lord not to kill her son and giving her life to save him. And little Harry who would relive the sounds and sights of his parent's deaths and the menacing figure of Voldemort and suffer long days. The true victims, the focus of what Snape's offense had wrought - the proper focus for his remorse, imo. Naturally neither offender can know the details of exactly what occurred as they were not there, but the point is upon whom the focus should be directed - on the victimized, not upon one's self.

And Snape's focus was on Lily... do you think he didn't consider her suffering? I believe he did. He was indifferent towards the others when he was a young man but he did change and learned to value all human life, IMHO. That is something that in six films I did not see from Darth Vader... except when he was a boy.

I'm sorry, but did Vader feel remorse or think about those poor people or did he just suffer because he felt their suffering through the force... as in there was pain involved because of his connection to the force and not any emotional connection to these people. If Vader suffered over the loss of the people of Alderaan then did he suffer at those he tortured and killed afterward, either by his own hand or by the orders he gave?

Nope...just thought about himself. That is what I feel Snape was doing.

Do you think Snape cried over Lily and sounded like a wounded animal because he would never see her again or simply because she no longer lived? Do you think it was "Oh poor Lily!" or "Poor me!" I think it was both.

Based on Dumbledore's reaction, I feel it was written purely "poor me". That is why Dumbledore pointedly suggested Snape at least think about the victim he purported to care about (her eyes, remember her green eyes? Just like Harry's eyes, what is left of Lily on earth, the victim orphan) But not in terms of his own loss, rather in terms of her - her loss - raising and protecting her son, who was now left an Orphan and required the protection of others.

What had he done? Do we know like we know for certain what Darth Vader did with his own hands? Not comparable. Dumbledore says "How many people have you stood by and watched die?" Watched. Not killed. Not tortured. For all we know Snape was a nobody before he delivered the prophecy... not Voldemort's favorite DE... not the go to guy to do his bidding.

Let us say he merely watched people being massacred then and did nothing about it. And that he carried a prophecy to his lord and master - the dark lord killer. That is way more than sufficient for me.

And he changes for the better after this, even if he wasn't a nice guy.

Yup. But I wasn't talking about later.

And even when he focused on Lily he was still thinking of someone other than himself.

But he was focused on Lily in terms of him self - his loss - what it meant to him. Well I have to stop and ask exactly what it did mean to him since she hadn't given him the time of day for around 5 years; for all we know he never saw her. She was in love and married to someone else; and her life had nothing whatsoever to do with Snape. He didn't know what she did everyday, how she showed her love to her loved ones, etc. So frankly, he had nothing to think about in terms of Lily's loss except that she was no longer around to give her love (however she did it) to others. Clearly he wasn't mourning the fact that she was no longer around to give her love to James and Harry. But he should have been. Snape was carrying on as if he lost something that was actually a part of his life. He hadn't. To me, he was suffering the loss of what could have been, but what would never be. And that was in terms of what the figment of Lily in his imagination might possibly mean to him in the future. For in the present, there was no Lily in his life.

Dumbledore was giving him a purpose to go on living... and transferring the love he felt for Lily towards protecting her son...

I think that is a nice way to look at it and I won't argue the point. But I think you understand how I feel about it.

and IMHO as a result of this and being around Dumbledore he grew as a person, even if he wasn't perfect, he was better than where he was before.

Yup but that is in the future again...not in that moment.

And Snape's focus was on Lily... do you think he didn't consider her suffering? I believe he did. He was indifferent towards the others when he was a young man but he did change and learned to value all human life, IMHO. That is something that in six films I did not see from Darth Vader... except when he was a boy.

As I said, I don't believe he was considering her suffering. He couldn't care two twigs, imo, that she would be in agony over James - or Harry for that matter. He didn't care that she could no longer show love to Sirius, Lupin or other friends he wasn't even aware she had. He was mourning something else about Lily - and imo, it could only be in terms of himself and any prospects he had. He simply did not have the mentality to consider the losses of others, hence he could watch people die. They meant nothing to him. Lily meant something to him - but it was in terms of himself, not in terms of the beauty of Lily as a person alive and showing her love for others, imo. This is valuing life for life's sake - something Snape admitted that he had to learn to understand.

That is an easier lesson to learn than the other one that James taught him from the grave. Valuing life for life's sake applies to your enemies too (and it was through Snape, that James was able to acknowledged that teaching also - these things are complex in their fullness if you think about it - Draco and Harry had the exact same learning/acknowledgment experience in this regard) - and while it was too fresh a lesson for Snape to apply in the shrieking shack with Lupin and Sirius, Snape did eventually learn that lesson and applied it himself later in life. But this is all in the future, not at the time when he sat before Dumbledore after Lily's death.

I think he cared that she was no longer in this world... not what he got from her in return, which as you said, was nothing at this point, nor could he hope that he would get anything from her in the future, IMHO at this point. I believe he loved her, truly loved her as Dumbledore asked and that's caring for her beyond what he got out of it. So his grief and his remorse was genuine and not simply selfish, as far as I'm concerned. \

I would also like to point out again that Severus Snape did not murder Lily and James Potter. Voldemort murdered Lily and James Potter. While Severus holds some responsibilty for their deaths it is minimal compared to Voldemort's who actually killed them and Peter Pettigrew's who was put in a position of trust by "his friends" and deliberately and willfully betrayed them knowing they would be killed. I do not think that there is a court anywhere in the world that would even hear the case against Snape as an accessory to murder yet alone convict him!I disagree. The criminal justice system of Muggles, at least in the US, holds that being an accessory to a crime - before or after the fact - is equal to committing the act itself. Meaning the accessory can be and generally is held just as legally liable as the person who actually committed the act. If the act is murder during the commission of a felony, then that is called felony murder and it automatically bumps everyone involved to a charge of 1st degree felony murder. If convicted the potential to face either the death penalty or life imprisonment is very real. And conviction rates of accessory to 1st degree felony murder in the US is around 69%. This only includes those who didn't plead down to get lesser sentencing, were found guilty of lesser charges, hung-jury, mis-trial, or acquited.

Now, there is a justice system in place for the wizarding world and we know that they don't follow Muggle justice practices for the most part. Mitigating factors can be considered between the Prosecutors & Defense attorneys and plea deals arranged for the defendants. In fact, something of this nature did occur, IMO, on behalf of Snape.

We're told that Dumbledore, the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot, had given testimony on behalf of Severus Snape, just as Dumbledore also gave testimony against Sirius Black. One would presume that Snape was facing some type of tribunal and charges, otherwise why'd Dumbledore show up to speak on Snape's behalf? In the kangaroo court that Harry faced, Dumbledore did more than testify on Harry's behalf, he frankly defended him.

So, knowing that Dumbledore did speak up on behalf of Snape and defend him - for being a former Death Eater or for his part in handing off the prophecy that got the Potters attacked and murdered - and knowing what I do about the American justice system, then I'd have to disagree with the idea that "no court in the world would hear the case".

I think he cared that she was no longer in this world... not what he got from her in return, which as you said, was nothing at this point, nor could he hope that he would get anything from her in the future, IMHO at this point. I believe he loved her, truly loved her as Dumbledore asked and that's caring for her beyond what he got out of it. So his grief and his remorse was genuine and not simply selfish, as far as I'm concerned. \

And I respect your view on that. ;)

Thanks, though it isn't necessary for you to say so. :) I hope you don't feel I was being disrespectful in my response. I was just stating my opinion. It goes without saying that I respect yours even though I strongly disagree on many points. :)

Thanks, though it isn't necessary for you to say so. :) I hope you don't feel I was being disrespectful in my response. I was just stating my opinion. It goes without saying that I respect yours even though I strongly disagree on many points. :)

Not at all, I understood that. I was just acknowledging that I had read your concluding point. :)

I disagree. The criminal justice system of Muggles, at least in the US, holds that being an accessory to a crime - before or after the fact - is equal to committing the act itself. Et. seq...

I agree. I felt that Snape's culpability relative to delivering the prophecy was made clear in the books. After hearing what had happened, Harry declared that Snape had helped kill his parents. That fact did not change merely because Snape later attempted to have one member of the family that was eventually targeted spared/kept safe. I felt Snape admitted this on the hill with his initial words - that he had told the Dark Lord the prophecy. He didn't merely say that Voldemort arbitrarily decided to kill the Potters. He knew that it was because he delivered the prophecy to him.

I respect the other portions of your post, but the above was the only part I was talking about. To pull himself out of that, would require backbone, because it would entail not joining the DEs, despite it being 'all he had'. In this instance, all he had was a very bad thing - killing innocents for wrongful reasons and his focus upon harm.

I was talking about the time Snape did pull out. While he could have refrained from joining them in the first place, after he joined them, that was all he had at that time. He could have continued being a DE like Lucius Malfoy or Avery or Mulciber. But Snape turned around, when he realised what his actions as a DE would do IMO.

This goes to what I was saying above. His mentality had to undergo a change and that is why Dumbledore did not have sympathy for him in the aftermath of Lily's death.

Dumbledore did not show sympathy IMO. What he did was to manipulate Snape's grief to make Snape work work for him. While Snape on the hill said "Anything", it was from here that Dumbleore started making him do everything and Snape literally did everything from spying to killing for Dumbledore in order to protect Harry and help the Light IMO.

He threw the victims in his face (they were killed for their trust, not Snape), then he threw the only victim Snape cared about in his face (her eyes would no longer be seen by those on earth, not Snape's), then threw the Orphan victim Harry in his face (he had no parents and would be hunted by a madman, not Snape).

And told Snape if he truly loved Lily Evans then Snape's way for clear for him. He asked Snape's help to protect her son. He used Snape's sorrow for his purpose; to help him in the war IMO.

Dumbledore's point was "get over yourself". All the talk of wanting to die and moaning and such was evidence that Snape was focusing on the wrong thing and Dumbledore tried to bring Snape around to where his focus should be. In that way he could find some proper remorse and get onto the road toward atonement. Dumbledore's efforts only half worked, imo.

I don't think so. Dumbledore more than anyone would know how hard it would be to get over certain things. He could not get over Ariana for 100+ years. For Snape, Lily's death and his role in it was like that and Dumbledore knew it. What Dumbledore did was to secure Snape's promise when he was too pained to think. Harry needed protection and Dumbledore knew Voldmeort was coming back and he needed to prepare for that day. He needed a man in Voldemort's camp and to help Harry. Snape was in his opinion the right man IMO.

It is strange but Dumbledore never asks anyone to help Harry, except Snape.

"Help me protect Lily's son." (DH - TPT) was what he said. He asks Snape for help, knowing that Snape's help would be invaluable and necessary for both Harry aand the war. I think Dumbledore used the grief as motivation. He succeeded too IMO.

It is strange but Dumbledore never asks anyone to help Harry, except Snape.

"Help me protect Lily's son." (DH - TPT) was what he said. He asks Snape for help, knowing that Snape's help would be invaluable and necessary for both Harry aand the war. I think Dumbledore used the grief as motivation. He succeeded too IMO.

Dumbledore had to ask Snape because Snape didn't want to do it. Dumbledore didn't have to ask anyone else because everyone else on the good side was more than willing to help without being asked. It would have been rather redundant for him to ask Sirius, for example. :lol:. But he used them all to help protect Harry whenever he needed to anyway - they were just happy to do so. Like the Weasleys taking him in during the middle of the night, the Order members moving to his rescue from Privet and warning off Vernon Dursley on their own, and Sirius and Lupin taking it upon themselves to protect Harry, etc.

Dumbledore had to ask Snape because Snape didn't want to do it.

Snape had already agreed to do anything. But when Voldemort died, Snape thought that work was over. Dumbledore knew it was not and sought Snape's protection for Harry IMO.

Dumbledore didn't have to ask anyone else because everyone else on the good side was more than willing to help without being asked.

All the things Snape did for Harry and the Order? I don't think so. No one would have killed Dumbledore for example. The work Snape did, I don't anyone would have. And the work did was instrumental to Harry's victory IMO.

It would have been rather redundant for him to ask Sirius, for example. :lol:. But he used them all to help protect Harry whenever he needed to anyway - they were just happy to do so. Like the Weasleys taking him in during the middle of the night, the Order members moving to his rescue from Privet and warning off Vernon Dursley on their own, and Sirius and Lupin taking it upon themselves to protect Harry, etc.

All members of the Order did their part in the war, but Snape IMO was special, for he was trusted with certain tasks that no one knew. Like Dumbledore trusted Harry with infoirmation about the horcruxes, which Snape or other members of the Order were not to know, Snape was trusted with certain tasks which others were not to know. His position was unique and very important IMO.

Dumbledore didn't have to ask anyone else because everyone else on the good side was more than willing to help without being asked. .

Which, IMO, only goes to show that even at that point Dumbledore thought Snape's contribution would be... shall we say, of considerable importance. Like you said - everyone else on was more than willing, why drag Snape into it in the first place (there were ways to get rid of him, even for a man like Dumbledore, should he ever consider him a threat)?

Now, throughout the series, I don't see Dumbledore heaping sentinels to keep Snape in order. IMO, it must mean he trusts him. And, even if he's as prone to miscalculation as any man (he admits it himself), somehow I fail to see old Albus willing to take his chances with a man he considers unrepentant.

To quote Lupin: "It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore’s judgment. I do; therefore, I trust Severus."

All the things Snape did for Harry and the Order? I don't think so. No one would have killed Dumbledore for example. The work Snape did, I don't anyone would have. And the work did was instrumental to Harry's victory IMO.

Well I think Moody, Kingsley, both of whom had killed in the line of duty, would have been able to do it, if Dumbledore told them he was dying and it was for the greater good. But Dumbledore wished for Snape to be thought his killer, as it would secure his position with Voldemort - and set up him as the believed master of the Elder Wand. But there were somethings that Snape was best situation for, like spying on Voldemort, no one else was believed to be a Death Eater, so he was the only one who could do that. And like giving Harry the death message - everyone else love or liked and respected Harry too much to be able to be trusted with that task. And it wasn't presented as a good-sider act, so the 'grey' character, Snape was the only person that would do it, even with the negative connotations involved, imo. But Snape had to be shown doing acts for Dumbledore because his character was a "surprise" - it was the only means of revealing his true loyalty. Everyone else did important things as well, but we didn't have have them spelled out because we knew where their loyalties lay.

All members of the Order did their part in the war, but Snape IMO was special, for he was trusted with certain tasks that no one knew. Like Dumbledore trusted Harry with infoirmation about the horcruxes, which Snape or other members of the Order were not to know, Snape was trusted with certain tasks which others were not to know. His position was unique and very important IMO.

Well I respect your view on that. But I don't see Snape as special. He did his duties that no one else was fit to do, as everyone else did. Snape could not act as a spy at the Ministry - or help Dumbledore escape capture by the Ministry like Kingsley did, or spy on the werewolves and do all the OOTP missions like Lupin did, or do whatever Arthur was doing when he nearly got killed. Snape didn't know what others were doing - just as they didn't know what he did specifically. But everyone knew he spied on Voldemort - just as everyone knew Kingsley spied at the Ministry - but canon did not provide us with details. So I do not see Snape's duties as more important, but I do feel that all of the duties of everyone, including Snape, were important to Dumbledore based on his plan. :)

The work Snape did, I don't anyone would have.I agree with WWB on this. Dumbledore flat tells Snape that what he does is "a job I would entrust to nobody but you."

As for Dumbledore's treatment of Snape after Lily's death: Grief is a very personal and selfish process - not that it's a bad thing - but as someone who's lost a dear one, you really find it initially difficult, if not impossible, to get beyond the shock of unexpected loss and how that loss affects you personally. If you can step back and see how it not just affects you but others, it helps you to focus on someone/something else and not have to "think" about yourself.

I think Dumbledore's tough-love following Lily's murder was necessary to push Snape to stop thinking in terms of how Lily's death impacts him and instead focus on the fact that more than one person has suffered terrible loss, and in regards to Harry, will continue to suffer. How a part of Lily would need help/protection for many years to come.
Now, throughout the series, I don't see Dumbledore heaping sentinels to keep Snape in order. IMO, it must mean he trusts him. And, even if he's as prone to miscalculation as any man (he admits it himself), somehow I fail to see old Albus willing to take his chances with a man he considers unrepentant.To a degree, Dags, I agree. But that, to me, is tempered with the fact that Albus Dumbledore played his cards very close to his chest, he never tells people 'everything' as he prefers to never put all his secrets into one basket. Snape says that Dumbledore trusts Harry but not him, to which Dumbledore disagrees and says it's not really about trust. IMO, to me, it is as much a trust issue as it's a need to protect issue.And, even if he's as prone to miscalculation as any man (he admits it himself), somehow I fail to see old Albus willing to take his chances with a man he considers unrepentant.Well, I feel that Snape had shown he was repentant of Lily's death, but I do not see that Snape is ever repentant of the murder of James Potter or the horrible attack and attempted murder on Lily and James's fifteen month old son. We also never see that Snape is truly repentant of his Death Eater days, although we do get to see via the Prince's Tale how Snape has grown and evolved in the fact that he no longer stands by "watching" as innocents are murdered, but acts to help if he can do so without revealing himself to danger - it was essential that his cover not be blown.

To me, though, it would have been so much more powerful backstory if Snape could have been shown to have grown beyond the schoolboy hatred and regretted what his act had wrought, not just in terms of "Lily's death" but in terms of the murder of her husband James Potter and the attack and near murder of her innocent child. Unfortunately, IMO, we never get to see true repentance on that level. IMO, if we did, then I think there'd be less argument about Snape's redemption.

To a degree, Dags, I agree. But that, to me, is tempered with the fact that Albus Dumbledore played his cards very close to his chest, he never tells people 'everything' as he prefers to never put all his secrets into one basket. Snape says that Dumbledore trusts Harry but not him, to which Dumbledore disagrees and says it's not really about trust. IMO, to me, it is as much a trust issue as it's a need to protect issue.

ALbus trusted Severus with the most explosive secret of all. He allowed Severus to see a large, ugly black ring with a crack running down its center, on which an exstremely powerful curse had been cast. If that one fell into the wrong ears, Harry's mission would have been over before it started. I do think we have to take Albus at his word on this one. He trusted Severus Snape completely. I agree with Dags that this must mean Albus believed he was repentant. Albus was also the person who knoew Snape better than anyone else, so i tend to think he was right in this.

I also don't get this "picking and choosing". Snape saves lives, and does not wish to sully his soul with a murder, yet people's default assumption is that he never regrets his former association with murderers? Given the first two, I would assume the third as well, absent explicit evidence to the contrary. The sentence as written does not even make sense, to me.

Does he regret James Potter is no longer in the world? I can see why people might think the answer here is no (I would tend to agree, actually), but that is separate from whether Snape regrets having been involved in his removal. He hates James. This seems reasonable to me based on their past relationship. I never met James Potter, but find him pretty insufferable. :)

To me, though, it would have been so much more powerful backstory if Snape could have been shown to have grown beyond the schoolboy hatred and regretted what his act had wrought, not just in terms of "Lily's death" but in terms of the murder of her husband James Potter and the attack and near murder of her innocent child.

Hmm... I agree that it would probably make more of an emotional impact on most readers if Snape became a self-declared all-around good guy in the end. But personally, I would have been very disappointed - it's precisely that kind of "character betrayal" that I begrudge most fantasy fiction writers.

From what is offered to us throughout the series, I see absolutely nothing to support Snape's sudden "coming out" about his inner motivation beyond the little things Jo gave us through his memories. So I never really expected a catharsis for Snape...

Don't get me wrong: it's not that I don't think he came to regret his previous choices and actions (I wouldn't be on this thread otherwise) - all of them - I just think there was no way for Jo to remain true to the way she fleshed Snape out, and give us the satisfaction of actually hearing him declare his remorse.

But that's only my bronze Knut... We are all entitled to see the characters differently. :)

Don't get me wrong: it's not that I don't think he came to regret his previous choices and actions (I wouldn't be on this thread otherwise) - all of them - I just think there was no way for Jo to remain true to the way she fleshed Snape out, and give us the satisfaction of actually hearing him declare his remorse.

Some of us. I much prefer the way he was written. Seeing him live it, was far more satisfying than hearing him say it.

Heck, little Peter was oh so sorry, just go check out his dialogue in PoA. :lol:

Well I think Moody, Kingsley, both of whom had killed in the line of duty, would have been able to do it, if Dumbledore told them he was dying and it was for the greater good.

I don't think so. Killing in the line of duty is killing bad guys. Killing guys who are out to kill you. Killing Dumbledore was not like killing Avery or Mulciber IMO.

Once Kingsley or Moody killed Dumbledore, they had all but buried their lives, their work, their reputation, their goodwill, their dreams and the rest of their lives.

That was what Snape sacrificed by kiling Dumbledore and I just cannot imagine Kingsley or Moody accepting the reasons Dumbeldore gave on page; to save Draco's soul and to save being tortured as a reason for they giving up everything.

But Dumbledore wished for Snape to be thought his killer, as it would secure his position with Voldemort - and set up him as the believed master of the Elder Wand.

No one knew about the Elder wand, so for the person who was the killer of Dumbeldore, there were only 2 reasons; the main thing to save Draco's soul and the seocnd reason was to save Dumbledore from being tortured. I doubt Dumbeldore will find it easy to get anyone to kill him, except perhaps Harry. Harry is the only other person who would listen to Dumbledore IMO

And like giving Harry the death message - everyone else love or liked and respected Harry too much to be able to be trusted with that task. And it wasn't presented as a good-sider act, so the 'grey' character, Snape was the only person that would do it, even with the negative connotations involved, imo.

I know Dumbledore loved Harry as his own; I think Snape cared for Harry in a way he did not for any other person, apart from Lily and both of them planned to give Harry the message, because it had to be done to win the war.

Others would not have given the message; they loved Harry, liked him and respected him, but would have hurt him far more by their inaction than Snape and Dumbledore did by their right action IMO.

In fact I would say this act alone shows how much they knew Harry. Harry would never ask to live at the expense of all the lives that could be lost and others who liked him and probably did not understand him IMO.

posted by Kat-Suki
Dumbledore flat tells Snape that what he does is "a job I would entrust to nobody but you."

I think that's because there were limits to the jobs others would do for the Order and the Light. Snape and Dumbledore in that respect were different. Because their backgrounds were similar and for both of them, there were really no limits to get the task done and ensure Harry's victory and Voldmeort's defeat IMO.

Some of us. I much prefer the way he was written. Seeing him live it, was far more satisfying than hearing him say it.


:agree: :)

Some of us. I much prefer the way he was written. Seeing him live it, was far more satisfying than hearing him say it.



I'm one of those people. :tu:

Some of us. I much prefer the way he was written. Seeing him live it, was far more satisfying than hearing him say it.

Heck, little Peter was oh so sorry, just go check out his dialogue in PoA. :lol:
:lol: Great point Z. :tu:

Rowling surely illustrates the difference between words and deeds. It is very easy for her characters to say one thing and mean, or do another. I imagine if Snape had said something in remorse- many readers wouldn't have believed him anyway- as suspect as he was for the first 6 books.

No in his case actions speak volumes over words. Besides sometime when an emotion is so strong- words are to trite or simple to wrap around it all.

ALbus trusted Severus with the most explosive secret of all. He allowed Severus to see a large, ugly black ring with a crack running down its center, on which an exstremely powerful curse had been cast.Well, the way that Albus was waving the thing around in public it's hard to believe that he was trusting Severus with deep dark secrets. Toodling off to Little Whinging with the ring on his hand in full view to Harry & the Dursleys & any of their neighbors if anyone was out and about, then he was off for a stroll through Budleigh Babberton, to wave it under the nose of Horace Slughorn, and then *poof* off to the Weasleys where he made no move to hide/disguise it from Molly or Tonks. Then he pops off to who knows where with the ring still firmly on his finger and in full view. *shrugs*

There's still the very large question of whether Snape even knew the ring had once belonged to Voldemort, where he'd gotten, and if it was a Horcrux, rather than just a cursed object that was going to end up killing Albus Dumbledore.

So honestly I've got to disagree as anyone spying for Voldemort - other than Severus - could have seen it and commented on it.

I'm not convinced Dumbledore trusted anyone completely and that includes Harry or Snape. Otherwise, IMO, there'd be no need for secrets from either of them.

I also don't get this "picking and choosing". Snape saves lives, and does not wish to sully his soul with a murder, yet people's default assumption is that he never regrets his former association with murderers? Given the first two, I would assume the third as well, absent explicit evidence to the contrary. The sentence as written does not even make sense, to me.Well, it makes perfect sense to me. :lol:

IMO he has never regretted these things - the murder of James Potter, the emotional toll that had upon Lily who had to witness it. To me he never regretted that Harry was almost murdered, that he was without either of his parents, that he was placed into a home where he was abused and neglected and starved - all because he'd handed off the prophecy to Voldemort and Voldemort chose "the Potters". IMO he only ever regretted that the info he passed along got Lily Evans killed. Over the years, his character grew IMO and changed for the better in some ways, but to me the failure to regret all that was wrought due to him, signifies that Snape didn't fully regret/repent of his Death Eater days.

Yes, he worked towards redeeming himself. He was deeply loyal to Dumbledore and to Lily's memory, IMO. Yes, he acted to protect Harry - not because it was the right thing to do, though.
I never met James Potter, but find him pretty insufferable. To each their own. Personally, I'd say that about Sirius, not James. At least we got to see James' character grow, mature, and move on. I don't think it's too much to ask that Snape be allowed the same. *shrugs*
Hmm... I agree that it would probably make more of an emotional impact on most readers if Snape became a self-declared all-around good guy in the end. But personally, I would have been very disappointed - it's precisely that kind of "character betrayal" that I begrudge most fantasy fiction writers. No, actually I'd not like Snape to become an all around "good guy". Urgh! Change his personality and become all sunshine and light or beg for forgiveness - someone please pass me a hat 'cause I think I'm gonna hurl! :lol:

No, what I'd have liked is that his redemption have been complete and IMO it wasn't. He reached his own level of peace at the end and we know that Harry forgave him, despite how Snape always felt about him.
Heck, little Peter was oh so sorry, just go check out his dialogue in PoA. Yeah, that he'd got caught and was gonna face ultimate punishment for his crimes. :rolleyes:

Hmm... I was going for "friendly" approach, ladies - it's not that I personally dislike the way Snape was written. Actually, I'm quite impressed. But it would hardly help me get my point across if I wrote "average reader" and "give some of you" :lol:

Seeing him live it, was far more satisfying than hearing him say it.

Heck, little Peter was oh so sorry, just go check out his dialogue in PoA. :lol:

:tu: :tu: absolutly - actions speak louder that words imo and one of the reasons I like Snape :D

That was what Snape sacrificed by kiling Dumbledore and I just cannot imagine Kingsley or Moody accepting the reasons Dumbeldore gave on page; to save Draco's soul and to save being tortured as a reason for they giving up everything.I agree, TGW. There's also the thought of Severus understanding the tipping point Draco is at. Kingsley, Moody.. they haven't been there, so can't possibly have the same grip on the situation. A young man about to take the plunge into service of Voldemort. He was there, and unfortunately, took it. And he steps up, so that Draco doesn't have to go through the same grief, shame, and disappointments. The growth from Snape on the Hill, up to this point, has brought him to a point where he can follow through with the plan, and know the difference between him doing it, and Draco doing it. He understands where Albus is coming from, and sees it as the right thing to do.

Not the same result from Draco, but I see similarities in situations: Harry coming to the point at #12 when he treats Kreacher with respect, learning from Sirius' actions and the consequences from them. Severus knew the results of his choices in life, and wanted to protect Draco from them. I think Professor Snape recognized Draco didn't have the same kind of wherewithal, so took up the position so that Draco didn't have to follow in Severus' regretted path.

Well, I'd disagree. Snape was not at all concerned about Draco's journey into the Dark Arts or for his soul IMO, Dumbledore was. "If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"Snape's concern was with what he was being asked to do and how it would affect his own soul, not Draco's. He conceded and gave his word to Dumbledore because that is what Dumbledore asked of him. Please don't misunderstand, I get that Snape had a right to question and be hesitant and abhor the thing that was being asked of him, much less prefer another do the job.

It's just that I disagree that it was somehow his way of being altruistic and sparing Draco, though that is the end result and as Dumbledore had planned.

Does he regret James Potter is no longer in the world? I can see why people might think the answer here is no (I would tend to agree, actually), but that is separate from whether Snape regrets having been involved in his removal. He hates James. This seems reasonable to me based on their past relationship. I never met James Potter, but find him pretty insufferable. :)

Yeah but what does your finding James insufferable have to do with Snape finding proper remorse? Snape, behaved in an abusive, bullying, cruel, sadistic, sarcastic, selfish, manner, and I find him the most insufferable character in the canon - still, that is no basis to determine how others looked upon him. If they should feel remorse for their own sins against Snape, then they should feel that way whether I find his behavior horrid or not because it is their salvation at stake. Snape accused Dumbledore of using him for years - seems to me that my finding Snape insufferable would not serve as a good basis for finding it fine for others to use and abuse Snape. But it is an idea...

Some of us. I much prefer the way he was written. Seeing him live it, was far more satisfying than hearing him say it.


Precisely my point. I didn't enjoy watching Snape abusing, humiliating and bullying the children from an in story perspective. I didn't enjoy reading about him whipping Harry in the face, throwing him with all of his might onto the floor, lying and taunting him disrepectfully about his father and disrespecting Lily from any perspective. I didn't enjoy watching him taunt Tonks or treat Arthur with arrogant disregard when he returned from the hospital - and I didn't enjoy his covert antics like whispering in Harry's ear that he was nothing but a nasty little boy - or tossing Draco's father in his face - or trying to have Lupin and Sirius kissed or ratting Lupin out and getting him fired, making it harder for him to find work and ultimately targeted by Voldemort. Frankly, seeing him "live it" was the problem with not having him speak of any remorse he might have actually felt, because in my opinion, he didn't show any.

I personally did not feel that the writing of Snape was adequate to show him redeemed. However, he was often set up as the butt of a joke due to his poor hygiene, negative disposition, bullying character and nasty behavior - and that did add to the levity of the book as a reader. But in story, Snape came off as behaving in a manner very similar to that of the Death Eaters - which makes his good guy status questionable, imo.

Well, the way that Albus was waving the thing around in public it's hard to believe that he was trusting Severus with deep dark secrets.

What Snape knew, that no one else knew, was the curse that had been cast on it. No one else besides ALbus and the man who cast it (Voldemort) that is.

There's still the very large question of whether Snape even knew the ring had once belonged to Voldemort, where he'd gotten, and if it was a Horcrux, rather than just a cursed object that was going to end up killing Albus Dumbledore.

I have never been able to decide whether he suspected or even knew, or not. But simply describing the item and the curse, would have told Voldemort what Albus was up to in HBP. Snape did not have to supply the information that is was a Horcrux - Voldemort knows that already.

I'm not convinced Dumbledore trusted anyone completely and that includes Harry or Snape. Otherwise, IMO, there'd be no need for secrets from either of them.

Depends what you mean by trust, I suppose. He certainly did not trust anyone to be infallible. (Sensible man, no one is). I think what Dumbledore meant by trust, when he asserted he had it for someone, is that he trusted that person's intentions. He trusted that Snape would be loyal to him and his mission of protecting Harry (and later, the students of Hogwarts). But Snape might make errors in the process.

in concerning dumbledores trusting of snape, i always kinda thought that dumbledore always kept a watchful eye over snape. imo dd's character flaw ( that he himself acknowledges) is he trusted too much. but this is just my opinion

Dumbledore's attitude was rude and unsympathetic prior to Snape's declaration that he wished he were dead, so I would have to disagree that Dumbledore was thinking in those terms. You don't tell someone who is feeling suicidal "You recall her eyes, her green eyes" - that is enough to send them right over the edge, imo.
Actually having just re-read the scene I do not find Dumbledore to be at all rude or unsymapthetic and he certainly was not "unkind or belittling" towards Snape. He is cold and a little sharp with him but I think this is to try and pull him out of the depths. Incidently Dumbledore mentions Lilys eyes before Snape says he wishes to die. I really think that Dumbedore is trying to get Snape to transfer his love for Lily onto her son at this point - hence the reference to her eyes and the line "if you loved Lily Evans, truly loved her, then your way forward is clear." To me Dumbledore's intent is plain, and is as much for Snape's good as it is for Harry's. He needs to get Snape to focus on something other than Lily's death; he needs to give the man a task - a reason to live; and he is trying to get Snape to tranfer his love for Lily onto baby Harry. Unfortunately the last one didn't work. The words "Snape seemed to peer through a haze of pain, and Dumbledore's wprds appeared to take a long time to reach him." show that Snape is truning his grief inwards - he is withdrawing - and Dumbledore is trying to draw him out. If James had survived and Lily died then I can imagine that Dumbledore would have had a similar conversation with him. "You trusted the wrong man James. But Harry survives - you must think of Harry!" and so forth.

So, knowing that Dumbledore did speak up on behalf of Snape and defend him - for being a former Death Eater or for his part in handing off the prophecy that got the Potters attacked and murdered - and knowing what I do about the American justice system, then I'd have to disagree with the idea that "no court in the world would hear the case".
But could Snape be considered an accessory given that he did all he could to prevent the murder from taking place? I don't think so! Of course you are free to disagree with me :)

WWB: Most of the reasons you cite for not enjoying Snape's behaviour are highly questionable. What is not in question however is that he saved Harry's life in first year when Quirrel was hexing Harry's broom; he went looking for Harry when he didn't show up at the start of year feast, and he showed concern for Ginny when she was taken in CoS and took a lead in getting rid of Lockhart so the teachers could plan a strategy (even if they didn't get to put it into action); he brewed the wolfsbane potion for Lupin in PoA which enabled him to work at the school in the first place; he returned to face Lord Voldemort in the graveyard knowing that the Dark Lord might kill him just because he felt like it. He gave Umbridge fake veritaserum, then raised the alert when Harry gave him the cryptic message, and even went to search for Harry himself when he didn't return from the forest; he went to meet Harry from the train when he again wasn't present at the start of year feast, he saved Katy Bell's life, kept an eye on Draco and then killed Dumbledore when the man requested it; finally he managed to protect the students of Hogwarts from the extremes of the Carrows while not arousing the other DEs suspicions. In addition from the end of GoF he was spying on Voldemort - an accomplished legilimens who always knows when people are lying - for Dumbledore and the Order.

So he wasn't "nice" - but he was remorseful and he was redeemed.

Well, I'd disagree. Snape was not at all concerned about Draco's journey into the Dark Arts or for his soul IMO, Dumbledore was. "If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"Snape's concern was with what he was being asked to do and how it would affect his own soul, not Draco's. He conceded and gave his word to Dumbledore because that is what Dumbledore asked of him. Please don't misunderstand, I get that Snape had a right to question and be hesitant and abhor the thing that was being asked of him, much less prefer another do the job.

It's just that I disagree that it was somehow his way of being altruistic and sparing Draco, though that is the end result and as Dumbledore had planned.Where you see '..how it would affect his own soul, not Draco's.' I see him being affronted by the fact Dumbledore may be placing Draco's above his. He conceded and gave his word, because that is the decision he made, not because Dumbledore told him to (imo). An explanation and confirmation isn't a bad thing, and I think you agreed with that.

Please don't get me wrong, in my post I didn't mean to describe Professor Snape as knowingly saying "Oh, poor Draco...", (that is me) I just meant in his progression, he made it to the point where he knew the right thing to do: your 'though that is the end result'. I'm not very good at separating 'this is how I feel about the situation' and 'this is what (I believe) Snape is thinking, knowingly doing..' so I can understand how you got to your reply to my post, but I hope I've explained myself a little better, and you can see where I'm coming from.

I can't help thinkng that there isn't a good response Severus could have made to Dumbledore when he first asked Severus to kill him.

If he'd agreed to quickly he would have looked like he was calous and it would have made it hard for anyone to believe that he was on the path to redemption - it might sound too much like he was still thinking like a DE.

But by buting some breathing space, looking for a way out of doing something repugnant to him - he gives the appearance to some that he doesn't get the reasons why it has to be done. I for one agree with IchLiebeGeorge's assesment that one of the reasons Sev agreed was to try and stop Draco falling into the same trap / make the same kind of mistakes he did when he was a young man, partly becasue of what I see when I read the books but also because of JKR's statment that one of Sev's tragedies is that if he had his time again he would not have become a DE and that it is one of his great regrets jmo :)

Actually having just re-read the scene I do not find Dumbledore to be at all rude or unsymapthetic and he certainly was not "unkind or belittling" towards Snape. He is cold and a little sharp with him but I think this is to try and pull him out of the depths. Incidently Dumbledore mentions Lilys eyes before Snape says he wishes to die. I really think that Dumbedore is trying to get Snape to transfer his love for Lily onto her son at this point - hence the reference to her eyes and the line "if you loved Lily Evans, truly loved her, then your way forward is clear." To me Dumbledore's intent is plain, and is as much for Snape's good as it is for Harry's. He needs to get Snape to focus on something other than Lily's death; he needs to give the man a task - a reason to live; and he is trying to get Snape to tranfer his love for Lily onto baby Harry. Unfortunately the last one didn't work. The words "Snape seemed to peer through a haze of pain, and Dumbledore's wprds appeared to take a long time to reach him." show that Snape is truning his grief inwards - he is withdrawing - and Dumbledore is trying to draw him out. If James had survived and Lily died then I can imagine that Dumbledore would have had a similar conversation with him. "You trusted the wrong man James. But Harry survives - you must think of Harry!" and so forth.

I respect your view, but Dumbledore would hardly have to convince James to protect his own son - despite his unhappiness over his wife's death - and the same with with Lily, if she'd survived. The whole point was that despite the death of Lily, Snape did not want to help protect Lily's son - because it was also Potter's son and so he had to be manipulated into doing so. And I think we are in agreement that Snape turned his grief inward, but we just differ on Dumbledore's method of bringing him out of it. I did see him as very rude and abrupt about it - I re-read it too. But I respect the fact that you might interpret his behavior distinctly.

My point in that was that there was disdain in Dumbledore's behavior. I feel that the example you brought up of his treatment of Harry following Sirius' death is right on point. Dumbledore was much kinder, gentler, loving and soothing with Harry. Perhaps you didn't read it that way, but I saw Dumbledore as much more conciliatory. And I believe that is because in the scenario with Snape, his inward grief was born of his original evil intent and in the aftermath, he allowed his feelings of jealousy and hate interfere with his decision making. Dumbledore wasn't only trying to bring him around from grief, but also facing the fact that Snape still held onto a lot of Death Eater beliefs. He had to deal with him on those terms - that was not the case with Harry.

I respect your view, but Dumbledore would hardly have to convince James to protect his own son - despite his unhappiness over his wife's death - and the same with with Lily, if she'd survived.

He probably would not have to convince James to protect his own son - but Dumbledore may well have needed to point out that there were thnks other than Lily's death to think about - which is the analogy I believe Cathy was making - even if she wasn't it is a good point imo :)

The whole point was that despite the death of Lily, Snape did not want to help protect Potter's son and he had to be manipulated into doing so.

:D I think I would be on safe ground if I were to assert that what you may see as 'The whole point' of that scene is not what everyone else believes to be 'The whole point' of it - I certainly don't. ;)

Dumbledore quite possibly did have making sure Severus kept working against Voldemort in mind but I strongly feel that the points Cathy and numerous others have made about trying to pull him out of a dangerous reaction to his grief, giving him a new purpose, helping him find a way to keep his idea of a 'good person' alive are all predominant over *** desire to retain a valuable tool. jmho :)

Dumbledore was way kinder and gentle, loving and soothing with Harry. Perhaps you didn't read it that way, but I saw Dumbledore as much more conciliatory. And I believe that is because in the scenario with Snape, his inward grief was born of his original evil intent.

Yes Dumbledore treats both situation very differently - but they are different situations if only because Harry & Severus are such different people (although I believe there are other factors as well) - Grief isn't a one solution fits all senario - that's pretty much one of the first things you learn when beng taught how to work with people who are grieving. In both senario's Dubledore is taking a recognisable theraputic role (at least eveyone who has both read HP & studies psychotherapy that I know agree's & thats more than a few people ;)) - in such a role one is not always as soft and caring as the layman seems to assume; one has to deliver what is needed sometimes that's about providing a containning envioronment (as in the scene's between DD & HP after Sirius dies) sometimes people need something harsher as with Severus.

The differences don't neccessarily point to a judgment being made but to what is needed being delivered imo :)

He probably would not have to convince James to protect his own son - but Dumbledore may well have needed to point out that there were thnks other than Lily's death to think about - which is the analogy I believe Cathy was making - even if she wasn't it is a good point imo :)

Well that is the point I was addressing. James and Lily are not going to screech in a conciliatory way that they'll protect the boy, but Dumbledore isn't to tell anyone. They love their son, so the situation would be entirely different and Dumbledore would be able to approach it from a totally different angle than he does with a person who has no desire to protect the boy. In other words, Dumbledore would not need to be harsh with Lily to make her comply with that idea - she would have grief, but no jealousy, hatred or death eater values to overcome - and she would readily wish to protect her son. And to me there is little comparison between what a wife would feel after losing her beloved husband who loved her in return and Snape's grief over a woman he'd had no contact with for years. Sorry.

:D I think I would be on safe ground if I were to assert that what you may see as 'The whole point' of that scene is not what everyone else believes to be 'The whole point' of it - I certainly don't. ;)

I meant my whole point - the point I was making.

Dumbledore quite possibly did have making sure Severus kept working against Voldemort in mind but I strongly feel that the points Cathy and numerous others have made about trying to pull him out of a dangerous reaction to his grief, giving him a new purpose, helping him find a way to keep his idea of a 'good person' alive are all predominant over *** desire to retain a valuable tool. jmho :)

I wasn't addressing this point at all. I was addressing the fact that Dumbledore's behavior was based upon the type of individual Snape was at the time - and how he approached him. Whether he had the covert goal of using Snape as a tool is relevant, but I wasn't speaking about that.

Yes Dumbledore treats both situation very differently - but they are different situations if only because Harry & Severus are such different people (although I believe there are other factors as well) - Grief isn't a one solution fits all senario - that's pretty much one of the first things you learn when beng taught how to work with people who are grieving. In both senario's Dubledore is taking a recognisable theraputic role (at least eveyone who has both read HP & studies psychotherapy that I know agree's & thats more than a few people ;)) - in such a role one is not always as soft and caring as the layman seems to assume; one has to deliver what is needed sometimes that's about providing a containning envioronment (as in the scene's between DD & HP after Sirius dies) sometimes people need something harsher as with Severus.

The differences don't neccessarily point to a judgment being made but to what is needed being delivered imo :)

Well I don't really understand. You say that pulling people out of grief is achieved with various solutions, depending on the person. So it would seem that a person dealing with it would definitely have to make a judgment on how to approach the situation.

My only point is that Dumbledore judged that Snape: 1) still had Death Eater values and jealousy and hatred, which would inhibit his automatically doing the right thing - so he had to be talked into it; 2) had turned his grief inward and wasn't considering the victims; 3) and that he had brought his sorrows upon himself by and through his own actions.

In light of these considerations, Dumbledore's solution relative to dealing with Snape's grief was to be harsh. Did Dumbledore have to be harsh? Not to me. Did Snape deserve it? Most definitely.

I disagree Snape needs to be manipulated into protecting Harry. It seems to me Snape's objection to the idea is grounded initially not in some lack of desire to do it, or not having any feelings of responsibility/guilt. I think Snape's reason is the one he states, at the very moment that Albus first suggests Snape ought to help him protect Harry.

"He does not need protection. The Dark Lord is gone-"

Not, "I don't want to", or "I don't care", or "That's not my problem", but "he does not need protection". Should Snape follow Harry around to playgrounds when his new guardian (identity unknown by Snape, I would guess) takes him there, to make sure the boy does not skin his knee? :lol:

Albus confides his knowledge that Voldemort is certain to return, and that's all at takes. Snape agrees, he will undertake to help Albus protect Harry from Voldemort.

I disagree Snape needs to be manipulated into protecting Harry. It seems to me Snape's objection to the idea is grounded initially not in some lack of desire to do it, or not having any feelings of responsibility/guilt. I think Snape's reason is the one he states, at the very moment that Albus first suggests Snape ought to help him protect Harry.

"He does not need protection. The Dark Lord is gone-"

Not, "I don't want to", or "I don't care", or "That's not my problem", but "he does not need protection". Should Snape follow Harry around to playgrounds when his new guardian (identity unknown by Snape, I would guess) takes him there, to make sure the boy does not skin his knee? :lol:

Albus confides his knowledge that Voldemort is certain to return, and that's all at takes. Snape agrees, he will undertake to help Albus protect Harry from Voldemort.

Agreed, Snape's initial response was that the boy needed no protection. However, Dumbledore also does the whole "green eyes", "don't let her death be in vain" stuff - and Snape's final response after understanding Voldy would return, is what to me appeared to be a bit angry - yeah okay, but no one will ever know why he agreed to do it, especially not Potters son.

So I think JKR was attempting to show that Dumbledore knew Snape would have reservations against helping and need those harsh reminders to push him into it. And by his answer, it appears that he would refuse unless the conditions he set out were met - in further proof of that, imo. If it had been Sirius for example, there would have been no need to talk about hazel and green eyes, or his beloved friends' deaths being in vain. As we saw, Sirius was ready to take Harry into his care and protect him immediately following his parent's death - without any convincing or harsh treatment from anyone.

I don't wish to tangle over the word manipulation - I mean talked into it. I feel that whether Dumbledore's talking him into it was manipulative or not is something each reader can decide.

What Snape knew, that no one else knew, was the curse that had been cast on it. No one else besides ALbus and the man who cast it (Voldemort) that is.

I have never been able to decide whether he suspected or even knew, or not. But simply describing the item and the curse, would have told Voldemort what Albus was up to in HBP. Snape did not have to supply the information that is was a Horcrux - Voldemort knows that already.I think that anyone seeing that ring and then seeing Dumbledore's hand {also something he took no care to hide} and make mention of the injury to Voldemort would have sparked his interest. We know that Snape even tossed out the info about a "recent injury" to Bella and Cissy.

So I'm still not seeing the overall importance of Snape knowing the ring carried the curse which caused the injury.But could Snape be considered an accessory given that he did all he could to prevent the murder from taking place? I don't think so! Of course you are free to disagree with me That's okay, CW, we can't all agree! :lol:

IMO, knowing how the justice system works {it's what I'm going to school for} all Snape did would be considered "mitigating factors for the prior act". The prior act would be handing vital information that led to people being targeted for death, even without prior knowledge of how that information would be used, is still makes it an "accessory". His actions had consequences despite the mitigating factors of trying to prevent the murders, because the murders and the attempted murder did occur.

Pettigrew, on the other hand, wouldn't be an accessory - he'd be a full on accomplice to the crime as he participated by providing the necessary info to set the Potters up for their deaths and apparently stole back into the house to knick Voldemort's wand.

I see him being affronted by the fact Dumbledore may be placing Draco's above his.:hmm: Why would he be offended or insulted by that request, of Dumbledore seeking to protect an innocent child from a horrible deed and instead have a friend put an end to his suffering? Yeah, he asks Dumbledore "And my soul...what about mine" or something similar, but I don't take that as affront either, but rather dismay and hurt that Dumbledore would have the audacity to ask such of him. To me I always read that scene as a mixture of shock, hurt, revulsion, and then acceptance in regards to that request.It seems to me Snape's objection to the idea is grounded initially not in some lack of desire to do it, or not having any feelings of responsibility/guilt.You know, I disagree with both of those options "forced into" or "didn't feel the need". :lol: Surprise!

For me, at that point in time, Snape's pretty much overwhelmed with the initial shock of Lily's death and is involved in his own grief. He's peering bleerily at Dumbledore trying to grasp what he's getting at and then he says 'there's no danger to the boy as the Dark Lord is gone' --- to which Dumbledore says 'uh-uh, he'll be back and we gotta protect the kid'.

But there's no denying, IMO, that Dumbledore leveraged Snape's feelings for Lily in order to garner Snape's cooperation. Snape's "I thought we were doing this for Lily, to keep her son safe" reinforces this idea for me.

However, Dumbledore also does the whole "green eyes", "don't let her death be in vain" stuff - and Snape's final response after understanding Voldy would return, is what to me appeared to be a bit angry - yeah okay, but no one will ever know why he agreed to do it, especially not Potters son.

He does all that before he makes his suggestion. I tend to Cathy's opinion of why he is doing it.

At any rate, there is no evidence it is necessary. The moment he reveals the relevant information that Harry is indeed still in danger form Voldemort, Snape agrees to protect him.

I would not say he seems angry, after agreeing. He is described as taking time to compose himself, before he speaks. (Since he has been crying, one presumes). His condition of secrecy certainly does not have anything in it that suggests anger to me.

He does all that before he makes his suggestion. I tend to Cathy's opinion of why he is doing it.

At any rate, there is no evidence it is necessary. The moment he reveals the relevant information that Harry is indeed still in danger form Voldemort, Snape agrees to protect him.

Well that is a nice way of looking at it and I won't argue the point. But we would have to agree to disagree on this.

I would not say he seems angry, after agreeing. He is described as taking time to compose himself, before he speaks. (Since he has been crying, one presumes). His condition of secrecy certainly does not have anything in it that suggests anger to me.

Actually I was only referring to his answer:

"slowly Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, "very well. Very well. But never - never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear...especially Potter's son...I want your word!

...Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape's ferocious, anguished face,..."

So the way it was written called to mind anger - or conciliatory frustration mixed with fury - or something along those lines. Something that isn't simple agreement.


IMO, knowing how the justice system works {it's what I'm going to school for} all Snape did would be considered "mitigating factors for the prior act". The prior act would be handing vital information that led to people being targeted for death, even without prior knowledge of how that information would be used, is still makes it an "accessory". His actions had consequences despite the mitigating factors of trying to prevent the murders, because the murders and the attempted murder did occur.


Precisely. I agree, and I would add that Harry believed this as well, imo. He knew that Snape helped to kill his parents, he said so, because the act of delivering the prophecy - earmarked for *anyone* - happened to earmark his family. That Snape tried to undo it has no bearing on his original act, that stands no matter what else he had chosen to do - because there would have been no targeting as a result of the prophecy if Voldemort had never heard about it.

In the US, if Voldemort had attempted to murder the Potters, and they had lived - he could still be charged with attempted murder right along with Voldy in some courts - although in judgment the court would likely show leniency because they lived. But that just highlights how the law looks upon "bad acts" - they don't go away just because an offender wishes he hadn't done them, tries to undo them and fails. They are still a stain upon the individual wrongdoer and he must face up to his initial criminal activity if the original intent was criminal - which in this case it was.

WWB: Most of the reasons you cite for not enjoying Snape's behaviour are highly questionable. What is not in question however is that he saved Harry's life in first year when Quirrel was hexing Harry's broom; he went looking for Harry when he didn't show up at the start of year feast, and he showed concern for Ginny when she was taken in CoS and took a lead in getting rid of Lockhart so the teachers could plan a strategy (even if they didn't get to put it into action); he brewed the wolfsbane potion for Lupin in PoA which enabled him to work at the school in the first place; he returned to face Lord Voldemort in the graveyard knowing that the Dark Lord might kill him just because he felt like it. He gave Umbridge fake veritaserum, then raised the alert when Harry gave him the cryptic message, and even went to search for Harry himself when he didn't return from the forest; he went to meet Harry from the train when he again wasn't present at the start of year feast, he saved Katy Bell's life, kept an eye on Draco and then killed Dumbledore when the man requested it; finally he managed to protect the students of Hogwarts from the extremes of the Carrows while not arousing the other DEs suspicions. In addition from the end of GoF he was spying on Voldemort - an accomplished legilimens who always knows when people are lying - for Dumbledore and the Order.

So he wasn't "nice" - but he was remorseful and he was redeemed.

I think this is the best summary I've seen. Nice and remorseful are two separate things. You don't have to be one to be the other.

I also agree that Dumbledore was trying to reach thru Snape's grief. We already know, from canon, that Snape has a tendency to turn inward, to keep anyone from knowing his thoughts and feelings. A grief as deep as the one he obviously felt for Lily's death is a very dangerous thing when turned inward. Either it would eat him alive or it would make him very explosive and anyone could get hurt. Grief is a funny thing and it does funny things to people. Some folks simply sink without fighting and some come undone. IMO Snape had the potential to go either way.

Actually I was only referring to his answer:

"slowly Snape regained control of himself, mastered his own breathing. At last he said, "very well. Very well. But never - never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear...especially Potter's son...I want your word!

...Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape's ferocious, anguished face,..."

So the way it was written called to mind anger - or conciliatory frustration mixed with fury - or something along those lines. Something that isn't simple agreement.


I never saw this as anger. I saw this as pain, grief, humilation and shame. Not anger. JMO.

I never saw this as anger. I saw this as pain, grief, humilation and shame. Not anger. JMO.

Yes, I agree. I don't think the word "ferocious" can be looked at independently of the word "anguished" that follows. I think "ferocious" was meant to suggest the intensity of his feelings at this time and anger at having to watch over Harry was not one of them, IMHO. All of the feelings suggested above I would strongly agree with - when one takes into context the entire sentence and scene.

I think this is the best summary I've seen. Nice and remorseful are two separate things. You don't have to be one to be the other.

I also agree that Dumbledore was trying to reach thru Snape's grief. We already know, from canon, that Snape has a tendency to turn inward, to keep anyone from knowing his thoughts and feelings. A grief as deep as the one he obviously felt for Lily's death is a very dangerous thing when turned inward. Either it would eat him alive or it would make him very explosive and anyone could get hurt. Grief is a funny thing and it does funny things to people. Some folks simply sink without fighting and some come undone. IMO Snape had the potential to go either way.



I never saw this as anger. I saw this as pain, grief, humilation and shame. Not anger. JMO.

What do you think Jo meant by the word 'ferocious' ? The defination of the word in my dictionary contains none of the above, and while I do agree with you about Snape feeling grief I also acknowledge that grief contains a great deal of anger. You can feel anger at the person who died or as I feel in Snape's case, because of his very real culpability in Lily's death, anger at himself. I keep in mind that an author chooses words carefully, so I feel Jo chose that particular word with all it's connotations with a great deal of care.

Yes, I agree. I don't think the word "ferocious" can be looked at independently of the word "anguished" that follows. I think "ferocious" was meant to suggest the intensity of his feelings at this time and anger at having to watch over Harry was not one of them, IMHO. All of the feelings suggested above I would strongly agree with - when one takes into context the entire sentence and scene.

I agree! I also read the word "ferocious" as being used to describe the intensity of Snape's anguish, much in the same way that the phrase "ferocious heat" is used to describe an intense heat.

ETA:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/ferocious?view=uk

ferocious

• adjective 1 savagely fierce, cruel, or violent. 2 informal very great; extreme.

WWB: Most of the reasons you cite for not enjoying

Snape's behaviour are highly questionable. What is not in question however is that he saved Harry's life in first year when Quirrel was hexing Harry's broom; Technically, he only attempted to save Harry, it was Hermione that actually accomplished the act by pushing Quirrell breaking his concentration and then setting poor Professor Snape on fire. :lol:

What we'd initially seen in that attempt, for me, has always been tempered by the fact that Snape already suspected Quirrell due to Halloween Night, the Troll, and Snape's leg getting up close and personal with one of Fluffy's head. That's further tempered by the Prince's Tale in which Snape is told to keep an eye on Quirrell.

So I never picture this as something Snape just did because it was the right thing to do, but rather because he'd promised to keep Harry safe, was following Dumbledore's orders along with new suspicions.

he went looking for Harry when he didn't show up at the start of year feast, and he showedDo we know this was out of concern for Ron and Harry, whether Dumbledore had ordered him to patrol the grounds in the hopes the car would make it, or because Snape'd managed to keep track, somehow, of all the 'flying car' sightings as they made their way north allowing him to anticipate their arrival and be the one to "catch them in the act"?

We don't know the answer.

concern for Ginny when she was taken in CoS and took a lead in getting rid of Lockhart so the teachers could plan a strategy (even if they didn't get to put it into action);Concern for Ginny? IMO, no. Even knowing her name all he said was "a little girl has been snatched, taken into the Chamber, your moment has come at last." We see/hear no expression of concern for "Ginny" specifically, although he does clutch the back of the chair tightly at knowing a student had been taken into the Chamber, while Flitwick cries, Hooch sinks weak-kneed into a chair, McGonagall is 'very white', and Sprout clapped a hand over her mouth. As for planning strategy, there was no planning, IMO. "Tell your kids to stay in their Houses and pack, they're going home first thing tomorrow."

Was Snape's gripping the chair out of concern? Anger that Dumbledore wasn't there? Feelings of failure that in Dumbledore's absence the Staff had still not stopped the attacks? Frustration? Perhaps all of the above? But was it for Ginny or for a non-descript student?

he brewed the wolfsbane potion for Lupin in PoA which enabled him to work at the school in the first place;He did this on Dumbledore's orders and not out of the goodness of his heart to help out a fellow Order member, IMO.

he returned to face Lord Voldemort in the graveyard knowing that the Dark Lord might kill him just because he felt like it.Yes, he did return. That was a tremendously brave act on his part. Yet he returned on Dumbledore's orders. "You know what you have to do...if you are ready?" To me, it's a non-starter that this is something he'd know he'd have to do eventually, should Voldemort return as Dumbledore had always said he would.
He gave Umbridge fake veritaserum,Yes he did. At what point during the year did she make the request of Snape though, when did he provide the fake, and did he provide the fake just to stump Umbridge or because Dumbledore'd told him to be ready for such a request? She'd already started using the serum to question students fairly early on, IMO, before she'd used it on Harry that first time, and certainly after.

then raised the alert when Harry gave him the cryptic message,Yep, we're told this is what he did. and even went to search for Harry himself when he didn't return from the forest;Why'd he not follow and save Harry from Umbridge? In fact, why didn't Snape just attack in the office, wipe everyone's memories, and then alert the Order?
he went to meet Harry from the train when he again wasn't present at the start of year feast,Because he'd intercepted the message meant for Hagrid? Or because the Headmaster instructed him to do so?
he saved Katy Bell's life, kept an eye on Draco and then killed Dumbledore when the man requested it;Katy's not fully touching the thing, Harry's witnessing what occurred and making sure the cursed object was used to identify and treat, and getting her promptly to the hospital wing also played major parts in saving Katy's life, though. We're told it's his knowledge of Dark Curses that helped stabilize her, but then she's promptly moved off to St. Mungo's where she languishes for half-a-year.

As for keeping an eye on Draco, we know that he didn't do this very well because of the two near fatalities, just as we know that he kept on eye on Draco and attempted to find out what he was up to because Dumbledore ordered him to do so.

Now, he most definitely placed his own life on the line for Draco Malfoy with the Unbreakable Vow but by the point he'd taken the vow he'd already given Dumbledore his word that he'd do the killing, rather than Draco.

finally he managed to protect the students of Hogwarts from the extremes of the Carrows while not arousing the other DEs suspicions.Again, this goes to the plan between he and Dumbledore and his following orders, though no one can really say that Snape was not a very good double agent.

In addition from the end of GoF he was spying on Voldemort - an accomplished legilimens who always knows when people are lying - for Dumbledore and the Order.Yes, he did, and he'd had years of practice at this obscure branch of magic, quite possibly taking lessons from Dumbledore himself in order to become even more proficient at it...both before and after Voldemort's first downfall.

So he wasn't "nice" - but he was remorseful and he was redeemed.Out of all of those things, how many times was he following Dumbledore's orders or doing things simply because they were the right thing to do and an overwhelming wish to protect people from Voldemort?

As for remorseful and redeemed, IMO none of those above instances engender that thought for me. Loyalty, yes. Desire to bring Voldemort down, yes. Willingness to follow orders, yes. Willingness to protect Harry for Lily, yes.

I don't need "nice". But where's the willingness to do it without being ordered and simply because it's the right thing to have done?

I never saw this as anger. I saw this as pain, grief, humilation and shame. Not anger. JMO.I agree, there are times I believe, that we see Harry ferocious and bellowing, in anger/rage/pain/grief.

I think this is the best summary I've seen. Nice and remorseful are two separate things. You don't have to be one to be the other.

I also agree that Dumbledore was trying to reach thru Snape's grief. We already know, from canon, that Snape has a tendency to turn inward, to keep anyone from knowing his thoughts and feelings. A grief as deep as the one he obviously felt for Lily's death is a very dangerous thing when turned inward. Either it would eat him alive or it would make him very explosive and anyone could get hurt. Grief is a funny thing and it does funny things to people. Some folks simply sink without fighting and some come undone. IMO Snape had the potential to go either way.

Well Snape deserved to be eaten live with guilt and recrimination. Two people had just died that he had helped to kill. Understand, that trying to undo the murder of the victims and failing does nothing for the true victims here. They are dead. Snape did end up lashing out and harming others. He should have been placed in Azkaban to prevent that. Dumbledore unleashed him on an innocent and undeserving student body for 12 years, during which Snape was of no use, imo, and was only undergoing rehab at the expense of the kids so that Dumbledore could use him later down the line. Dumbledore would have been better off with a different plan.

As I say, his pain was largely a farce, imo, because although he felt it, and he built it up to something very grand and difficult for himself to handle, I cannot escape the fact that he was mourning over an individual he'd not had contact with for many years. He'd worked with a gang that was attempting to kill her during that time and a gang that killed many others beside her. Snape's mourning was pitiful, imo, because it was hallow and shortsighted, selfish and based, imo, on his imaginings - rendered largely immoral due to the cast he place upon them. The message Snape's character sought to portray, in my judgment, was: evil doers and vengeful offenders beware, because you reap what you sow.

So I interpret Dumbledore to have seen it that way and hence, his reaction. And I interpret the words JKR used for Snape in having him speak (not the ferocious bit - his own words) as indicative of all I said above and some form of anger, somewhere between irritation and stark raving mad at the notion of having to protect Lily's son - merely because it was also the son of the man he helped to kill in addition to Lily - her husband - and Snape ignored the fact that his efforts had helped to ensure Harry would be an orphan (and you can change the names of all of these people to whoever Voldemort would ultimately pick). The scene endgenders no sympathy from me, only disdain for the character.

But where's the willingness to do it without being ordered and simply because it's the right thing to have done?

It could be said of almost any order member, o order buisiness that they were only doing what they were ordered to.

Do we disregard Mrs Figgs efforts because Dumbledore wanted her to keep an eye on Harry?

Do we disregard Tonk's efforts because Dumbledore (or her boss atthe ministry) ordered her to keep an eye on Harry?

Do we disregard any of the order members who fought at the dept of Mysteries - because they went there under orders?

I would argue that when any member of the Order obeyed orders, or acquiesced to requests, it was an act of bravery and an act born out of a desire to end Voldemort's reign of terror and ‘do what is right' - but that's just the way I look at it :)

I missed this - sorry the response is a bit late :)

Well I don't really understand. You say that pulling people out of grief is achieved with various solutions, depending on the person. So it would seem that a person dealing with it would definitely have to make a judgment on how to approach the situation.

One makes an assessment based on clinical factors – the persons attachment style, how they are reacting to grief, what stage of grief they are dealing with etc.

One must never in such situations make moral judgments about the client – dong so is not only unethical but incredibly injurious to the therapeutic relationship.

My only point is that Dumbledore judged that Snape: 1) still had Death Eater values and jealousy and hatred, which would inhibit his automatically doing the right thing - so he had to be talked into it;

There is no cannon proof of this – you might infer it from how you read the cannon but I really don’t think you can find a direct quote in that scene that states that Dumbledore was making such a judgement – of course if you know of such a direct quote I would like to see it :)

I would also point out that Severus has been acting against Voldemort for some time at this point – and is seen as a member of the Order in the 1970’s. His membership of the DE’s at this point was because Dumbledore needed a spy in the DE .:)

2) had turned his grief inward and wasn't considering the victims;

As other posters have pointed out the initial stages of actually acknowledging the loss of a loved one – one very often does only think of oneself; that’s just a normal reaction, thinking about how the loss will affect others comes later on the whole.

It could be said of almost any order member, o order buisiness that they were only doing what they were ordered to.I disagree.
Do we disregard Mrs Figgs efforts because Dumbledore wanted her to keep an eye on Harry? Do we disregard Tonk's efforts because Dumbledore (or her boss atthe ministry) ordered her to keep an eye on Harry? Do we disregard any of the order members who fought at the dept of Mysteries - because they went there under orders?Did any of the above have hand in the deaths of the Potters? Were they supposedly trying to make atonement for that? Were they seeing over Harry - ever - just because of 'love for Lily'?

Yes, Dumbledore gave instructions to all Order members, but here-in lies the difference: none of them were former Death Eaters. None of them were responsible in whataver way, for the deaths of two of their fellow Order members or the attempted murder of a 15 month old child. None of them were acting to protect Harry only from a misguided sense of dedication and love to his mother. None of them acted to protect because they were "ordered" to do so but because they felt it was the "right thing to do" and couldn't sit around and do nothing. None of them were supposedly expressing remorse through those acts of protections or seeking redemption through those same acts, as we're supposed to believe of Snape.

I would argue that when any member of the Order obeyed orders, or acquiesced to requests, it was an act of bravery and an act born out of a desire to end Voldemort's reign of terror and ‘do what is right' - but that's just the way I look at it :)Well, I'd disagree with the "any" part. Pettigrew was a member of the Order and look how that turned out. :shrug: Snape was a member of the Order, yet we know that his acts regarding Harry's protection were tempered by his feelings for Lily: Always.

That doesn't mean he wasn't capable of doing the right thing for the right reason, to me he's more than capable of that and I've no doubt that there were instances in which he did act for the right reasons and without connection to his feelings for Lily.

What I question is if Dumbledore hadn't specifically told him to do something, would he have done it?

One makes an assessment based on clinical factors – the persons attachment style, how they are reacting to grief, what stage of grief they are dealing with etc.

One must never in such situations make moral judgments about the client – dong so is not only unethical but incredibly injurious to the therapeutic relationship.

Agreed, but Dumbledore wasn't a therapist. :lol:. So he wasn't bound by those rules. Imo, he made a blatant moral judgment when he accused Snape of having placed his trust in Voldemort - I truly doubt Snape saw that as an objective consideration or a good one - but rather as a condemnation, because Voldemort was a known evil lord, not someone purporting to do good who ended up doing a bad thing. I feel Dumbledore also used leverage and condemned Snape's self-pity when he stated that if Snape truly loved Lily, he would act on her behalf toward a good end - an opportunity still open to him. Snape twitched like chasing off a fly - just like Voldemort did when he condemned another Tom for having his name. I feel that showed Snape didn't want to do it - jealousy fueled his hatred beyond his moral capacity to find remorse for his act in that regard, imo. Snape snapped out of his self-pity quickly enough, because in truth, it held little merit - based on a loss he felt, but had experienced long before Lily died - way back in 5th year of school.

So I feel Dumbledore indeed broke the rules of proper therapy as you set forth above, but he was not practicing therapy, imo, he was simply a wise individual dealing with a person of Death Eater mentality and condemningly bringing him around to face up to the salient facts of the present.

There is no cannon proof of this – you might infer it from how you read the cannon but I really don’t think you can find a direct quote in that scene that states that Dumbledore was making such a judgement – of course if you know of such a direct quote I would like to see it :)

Well I provided them above. And I realize we may interpret them distinctly. :)

I would also point out that Severus has been acting against Voldemort for some time at this point – and is seen as a member of the Order in the 1970’s. His membership of the DE’s at this point was because Dumbledore needed a spy in the DE .:)

According to my interpretation, it had been about a week. So we would have to agree to disagree on this. I am unsure what you mean by Snape being an Order member in the 70's.

As other posters have pointed out the initial stages of actually acknowledging the loss of a loved one – one very often does only think of oneself; that’s just a normal reaction, thinking about how the loss will affect others comes later on the whole.

As a prima facie matter, Snape had no "loved one" to mourn in the traditional sense, so for me, these types of rules do not apply to him. I understand you see this distinctly, and we would have to agree to disagree on that - but it rather curbs our ability to discuss anything subsequent because of our differing view on the foundation issue.

Dumbledore's situation was distinct. He loved a young man who was behaving in an immoral manner. Dumbledore had to prevent himself from allowing his feelings to jeopardize his moral judgment. He could have pursued Grindel and perhaps had a relationship if he allowed himself to do so - Grindel was not married. Snape on the other hand had emotions for a moral and upstanding woman, and he had to prevent himself from interfering because his action would be the "only" immoral act involved in the situation. Snape could not have pursued that relationship in a similar way because Lily wanted nothing to do with him - it was she who saw Snape as immoral. Further, she was a happily married woman and had found the love of her life in her husband. Grindel was a friend of Dumbledores, but Lily was not a friend of Snape's. So these situations were distinct in very fundamental ways. Hence, Dumbledore understood unrequited love, but he would not sanction the immoral ideology that was associated with Snape's situation, imo.

This is why I repeatedly say that Dumbledore's "lesson" went further than trying to bring around a person who was wallowing in grief - something everyone does and it is very understandable. But when you have an individual whose grief is perpetuated by a Death Eater mentality - that is, morally suspect - one must address that issue as well. Dumbledore didn't wish to keep Snape around if he was going to remain thinking and acting like a Death Eater - a Death Eater protecting Harry would be of no use to him at all.

I respect your view, but Dumbledore would hardly have to convince James to protect his own son - despite his unhappiness over his wife's death - and the same with with Lily, if she'd survived. The whole point was that despite the death of Lily, Snape did not want to help protect Lily's son - because it was also Potter's son and so he had to be manipulated into doing so. And I think we are in agreement that Snape turned his grief inward, but we just differ on Dumbledore's method of bringing him out of it. I did see him as very rude and abrupt about it - I re-read it too. But I respect the fact that you might interpret his behavior distinctly.
Some parents can become neglectful of their children as a result of grief - it is a common theme in films and books - so I don't think you can assume that James would not have required some nudging in that direction. I also don't see that Snape did not want to protect Harry. He is dismissive of Dumbledore's request because he thinks Voldemort has gone, but at no point does he say he doesn't want to do it. He digests what Dumbledore has to say about Voldemort returning then agrees. So there is no evidence - no words on the page to indicate that Seveus did not want to protect Harry - none whatsoever. The only thing that Severus does not want is for Harry to know.
Well I don't really understand. You say that pulling people out of grief is achieved with various solutions, depending on the person. So it would seem that a person dealing with it would definitely have to make a judgment on how to approach the situation. The judgement the "therapist" would have to make is what the "berreaved" requires, not whether or not the bereaved person is "good" or "bad" or deserving of sympathy which is the judgement you were implying that Dumbledore was making in the two scenes with Snape and Harry. There is a very big difference between judging a situation and a persons state of mind, and judging a persons character and motivation.

I feel that whether Dumbledore's talking him into it was manipulative or not is something each reader can decide.I do not see that Dumbledore had to talk him into it at all. Dumbledore made a request, Snape said that wouldn't be necessary, Dumbledore said it will be, Snape agred to the request. Where is this reluctance on Snape's part and this talking him into it by DUmbledore?

Technically, he only attempted to save Harry, it was Hermione that actually accomplished the act by pushing Quirrell breaking his concentration and then setting poor Professor Snape on fire.
:sigh: Quirrel tells Harry that he would have suceeded in getting him to fall off his broom if SNape hadn't been muttering the counter-curse; Dumbledore also references Snape saving Harry's life.

Do we know this was out of concern for Ron and Harry, whether Dumbledore had ordered him to patrol the grounds in the hopes the car would make it, or because Snape'd managed to keep track, somehow, of all the 'flying car' sightings as they made their way north allowing him to anticipate their arrival and be the one to "catch them in the act"?

We don't know the answer.
But neverthe less Snape was the one who found them - not their head of house. I think this is very significant.

I definitely take Snape's gripping the chair as concern for Ginny - and with Snape that is a big outward show of emotion :lol:

He did this on Dumbledore's orders and not out of the goodness of his heart to help out a fellow Order member, IMO.
Where does it say it was on Dumbledore's orders? I certainly think that Dumbledore would have asked him and Snape certainly wasn't happy aboput it, but Dumbledore does not "order" people to do things very often. As such I take it that Dumbledore asked and Snape agreed - albeit relutantly. Even Lupin admits that he is indebted to Severus for this.

Why'd he not follow and save Harry from Umbridge? In fact, why didn't Snape just attack in the office, wipe everyone's memories, and then alert the Order?Probably for the same reason that Dumbledore didn't do this when the ministry came for him. I mean Dumbledore could easily have changed their memories while they were all out cold and ordered pizza for everyone while he was at it!

But why should Snape assume that Harry is in danger? He is with Umbridge - the headmistress and ministry minion. He checks the information that Harry gives him then waits to see what developes next. He is no reason to believe anything untoward is going to happen.

Yes, he did return. That was a tremendously brave act on his part. Yet he returned on Dumbledore's orders. "You know what you have to do...if you are ready?" To me, it's a non-starter that this is something he'd know he'd have to do eventually, should Voldemort return as Dumbledore had always said he would.
Snape did not return on Dumbledore's orders:

'Severus' said Dumbledore turning to Snape, 'you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared...'
'I am,' said Snape.

'Karkaroff's mark is becoming darker too. He is panicking,he fears retribution; you know how much help he gave the Ministry after the Dark Lord fell.' Snape looked sideways at Dumbledore's crooked-nosed profile. 'Karkaroff intends to flee if the Dark Mark burns.'
'Does he?' said Dumbledore softly, as Fleur Delacour and Roger Davies came giggling in from the grounds. 'And are you tempted to join him?'
'No,' said Snape, his black eyes on Fleur and Roger's retreating figures. 'I am not such a coward.'
'No,' agreed Dumbledore. 'You are a braver man bu far than Igor Karkaroff.'

I think these two quotes make it quite clear that Dumbledore asked Snape to spy on Voldemort and did not order him to. It was always Snape's choice. The only thing that Severus promised Dumbledore to do was to protect Harry. He didn't give Dumbledore any promise regarding spying on Voldemort when he returned. This was something that Snape chose to do.

Snape did end up lashing out and harming others. He should have been placed in Azkaban to prevent that. Dumbledore unleashed him on an innocent and undeserving student body for 12 years, during which Snape was of no use, imo, and was only undergoing rehab at the expense of the kids so that Dumbledore could use him later down the line. Dumbledore would have been better off with a different plan.

I think this is way out of line!
WHo exactly did Snape harm? Umbridge did far more harm to the students than Snape ever did and she was working for the Ministry!
And on what charge should he have been sent to Azkaban? Being mean to school boys?
There is no way he could be tried as an accessory as he 1)backed out of the conspiracy to murder and alerted those who could prevent the nurder from occurring 2) worked agaianst those who were trying to commit the murder at great personal risk to himself. I think in Muggle phraseology you could say he 'turned states evidence' There are people who have dome far worse than Severus Snape actually walking free in real life under the witness protection programme.

The message Snape's character sought to portray, in my judgment, was: evil doers and vengeful offenders beware, because you reap what you sow.
No. Perhaps this is the message you wanted Snape's character to portray. This is not the message that Rowling's character Severus Snape actually portrayed. What Snape portrayed was that of the man trying and often failing to do the right thing who is ultimately redeemed anyway. A man who is made miserable through his own inability to forgive, but is redeemed by another's forgiveness.

So I interpret Dumbledore to have seen it that way and hence, his reaction. And I interpret the words JKR used for Snape in having him speak (not the ferocious bit - his own words) as indicative of all I said above and some form of anger, somewhere between irritation and stark raving mad at the notion of having to protect Lily's son - merely because it was also the son of the man he helped to kill in addition to Lily - her husband - and Snape ignored the fact that his efforts had helped to ensure Harry would be an orphan (and you can change the names of all of these people to whoever Voldemort would ultimately pick). The scene endgenders no sympathy from me, only disdain for the character. There is no evidence that Dumbledore saw things this way. You have provided ample evidence though that this is the way you see it - but that is not the same thing. You say that you do not agree that Snape was redeemed - but that is the ending that Jo Rowling wrote with Harry forgiving Snape, naming his son after him and calling him the bravest man he ever knew. Rowling also confirmed Snape's redemption in a subsequent interview. Now you may have preferred the book to end diferently because you do not think that Snape deserved redemption, but it is Rowling's book and she chose to end it that way. You don't have to like it, that is your choice, but that is the way she wrote it.

Imo, he made a blatant moral judgment when he accused Snape of having placed his trust in Voldemort So was he making a moral judgement when in the same breath he accused James of having trusted Peter?

According to my interpretation, it had been about a week. So we would have to agree to disagree on this. I am unsure what you mean by Snape being an Order member in the 70's. Are you suggesting that Dumbledore lied to the wizengamot in the scene in GoF, and that this 'lie' was never pointed out or corrected in the later books?

Quirrel tells Harry that he would have suceeded in getting him to fall off his broom if SNape hadn't been muttering the counter-curse; Dumbledore also references Snape saving Harry's life.Yes, which goes to the point that Hermione caused the eye contact to break and that prior to this Snape was "trying to save" and not "did save" as you'd stated. It is a small distinction, but it is true none the less. :)

But neverthe less Snape was the one who found them - not their head of house. I think this is very significant.

I definitely take Snape's gripping the chair as concern for Ginny - and with Snape that is a big outward show of emotion And I can respect both of those ideas, even though I disagree.
Where does it say it was on Dumbledore's orders? I certainly think that Dumbledore would have asked him and Snape certainly wasn't happy aboput it, but Dumbledore does not "order" people to do things very often. As such I take it that Dumbledore asked and Snape agreed - albeit relutantly. Even Lupin admits that he is indebted to Severus for this.I certainly disagree that it wasn't an order by Dumbledore. Dumbledore had to ensure that his students and staff were as safe as he could make them. That fell to Severus Snape, Potions Master, who had the knowledge and expertise to brew this incredibly difficult potion. Failure to brew it or see that it was taken was not truly an option, IMO. To me, to ask or make a request is just that, something that can be refused at any time without consequences. Orders, on the other hand, are to be followed. So I'd disagree that Dumbledore is rarely shown to be "ordering" people about, either.
I think these two quotes make it quite clear that Dumbledore asked Snape to spy on Voldemort and did not order him to. It was always Snape's choice. The only thing that Severus promised Dumbledore to do was to protect Harry. He didn't give Dumbledore any promise regarding spying on Voldemort when he returned. This was something that Snape chose to do.
Disagree, and even Snape agrees with me on this one: "I prefer not to put all my secrets in one basket, particularly not a basket that spends so much time on the arm of Lord Voldemort."
"Which I do on your orders!"
"And you do it extremely well. Do not underestimate the constant danger in which you place yourself, Severus."While I agree, Snape could have backed out - he wasn't about to, because he was doing these things "for Lily". He was immensely brave to time and again place himself in danger, but it was on Dumbledore's orders. IMO.

I think this is way out of line!
WHo exactly did Snape harm? Umbridge did far more harm to the students than Snape ever did and she was working for the Ministry!
And on what charge should he have been sent to Azkaban? Being mean to school boys?

I would disagree that my opinion can be out of line, it can differ from yours though, and I respect that. In my view, which I have a right to, Snape harmed the children he was teaching by behaving in a bullying, cruel and humiliating manner toward them. Snape would have been charged with being a Death Eater - aiding and abetting in the killing of countless muggles and muggleborns, Order members and other wizards, magical creatures and any other sentient that was killed during his tenure. Azkaban was a better option, imo, because it would have saved the children from the harm he enacted upon them - in my judgment.

No. Perhaps this is the message you wanted Snape's character to portray. This is not the message that Rowling's character Severus Snape actually portrayed.

I don't feel anyone can arrogate the right to make decisions concerning the opinion I will hold, including JKR. In my opinion - which I have a right to - Snape's character in that scene, portrayed the message I indicated above.

What Snape portrayed was that of the man trying and often failing to do the right thing who is ultimately redeemed anyway. A man who is made miserable through his own inability to forgive, but is redeemed by another's forgiveness.

I respect your opinion, but I would have to respectfully disagree with you. In addition, I was speaking only of the one scene, you appear to be speaking about his overall character, so that might be a misunderstanding between us. :)

There is no evidence that Dumbledore saw things this way. You have provided ample evidence though that this is the way you see it - but that is not the same thing.

I agree completely. I began that sentence with "in my interpretation" - which means that I was providing the way I felt Dumbledore saw it.

You say that you do not agree that Snape was redeemed - but that is the ending that Jo Rowling wrote with Harry forgiving Snape, naming his son after him and calling him the bravest man he ever knew. Rowling also confirmed Snape's redemption in a subsequent interview. Now you may have preferred the book to end diferently because you do not think that Snape deserved redemption, but it is Rowling's book and she chose to end it that way. You don't have to like it, that is your choice, but that is the way she wrote it.

Well I interpret it distinctly. JKR wished for her character Harry to forgive and find some redemption for Snape. However, she did not indicate she wished her readers to follow suit. Indeed, she said each reader could make up their own mind, just as those in the wizard world did about Snape. So I accept Harry's messiah-like forgiveness of Snape, even if it is a bit far fetched to me. But I don't find him redeemed; I do not feel individuals who behave in an abusive manner toward children are redeemable unless they correct their behavior. And I don't feel that Snape ever approached proper remorse for his sins either.

So was he making a moral judgement when in the same breath he accused James of having trusted Peter?

Yup. However, it was Sirius and he accused both Lily and James of mis-placing their trust in him (as had Dumbledore in the end). But the distinction of course is that Voldemort was evil, and Snape knew it. Placing your trust in someone evil, knowing they will likely do evil deeds is far different than placing your trust in someone you feel is morally upstanding and going to only do the right thing, but then turns into a betrayer and traitor.

Are you suggesting that Dumbledore lied to the wizengamot in the scene in GoF, and that this 'lie' was never pointed out or corrected in the later books?

I am unsure what you mean. Why would Dumbledore have to lie? The trial didn't happen at the moment the Potter's died - rather sometime after that - perhaps a very long time afterward. But the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore happened just after their deaths.

Stop the personal attacks now!

Yes, which goes to the point that Hermione caused the eye contact to break and that prior to this Snape was "trying to save" and not "did save" as you'd stated. It is a small distinction, but it is true none the less. :)


Yeah, but the entire time he was saying the counter curse wasn't he preventing Harry from being knocked off his broom? I can't remember for sure, but didn't it take Hermione a while to figure things out and get to where the teachers were? If I'm remembering right then if Snape had not been working the counter curse then Harry would have been knocked off his broom long before Hermione got there.

Yeah, but the entire time he was saying the counter curse wasn't he preventing Harry from being knocked off his broom? I can't remember for sure, but didn't it take Hermione a while to figure things out and get to where the teachers were? If I'm remembering right then if Snape had not been working the counter curse then Harry would have been knocked off his broom long before Hermione got there.

The RL analogy I usually toss out to explain why it can be said that Snape saved Harry's life in PS/SS: Suppose I slip over the edge of a cliff. But I do not fall to my death, because a bystander manages to grab my wrist as I do. Alas, she is not strong enough to pull me back up, but holds on to me until a sufficiently brawny rescuer shows up and finishes the job.

I would certainly thank both the petite lady and the brawny gent for saving my life. :)

Quirrell states that he would have had Harry off the broom sooner, if Snape had not interfered. In other words, he would have had Harry off that broom before Hermione completed the rescue. The only thing THt prevented this outcome, was Snape's interference.

Yeah, but the entire time he was saying the counter curse wasn't he preventing Harry from being knocked off his broom? I can't remember for sure, but didn't it take Hermione a while to figure things out and get to where the teachers were? If I'm remembering right then if Snape had not been working the counter curse then Harry would have been knocked off his broom long before Hermione got there.:) Well, I certainly don't dispute that Snape was attempting to save Harry as we know that he was and this is canon. Nor do I dispute that Snape's knowledge of Dark Curses aided in stabalizing Katy Bell and most probably did help to save her life.

However, what I'm disputing is the idea that Snape is somehow solely responsible for the saving in either instance, when we know that it was a combination of efforts of several people.

Nor, does his participation in those instances, to me, suggest his remorse/redemption from his former days as a Death Eater.

Things that suggest his remorse and redemption, to me, are his seeming abhorance to killing Dumbledore when asked and the look upon his face as he did it. His comment of "lately only those whom I could not save". The Unbreakable Vow, which he did not have to do, but did anyway in order to protect Draco's soul and live up to his word that he'd given to Dumbledore. The willingness to constantly place himself in danger in facing Voldemort. The willingness to basically be misunderstood and doubted on all sides until the very end. His attempt to save Remus Lupin despite Dumbledore's own warning that he was to "play his part" if he participated that night. The fact that he never let go of his feelings for Lily.

Yeah, but the entire time he was saying the counter curse wasn't he preventing Harry from being knocked off his broom? I can't remember for sure, but didn't it take Hermione a while to figure things out and get to where the teachers were? If I'm remembering right then if Snape had not been working the counter curse then Harry would have been knocked off his broom long before Hermione got there.

Yes I believe that is correct.

*************

I was thinking that one thing JKR failed to do with Snape was to show him doing any thing brave or heroic. I mean we have Lupin and Sirius jumping into take curses for Harry (block them) and Order members fighting in 7 Potters against the odds and the feats of the trio, etc., etc., but no great feat by Snape - in a savior sense. He killed, watched Charity die (or killed depending on how you read it), chatted with Draco, didn't confront Voldemort, even at the end when it was all on the line, was estopped from saving Harry as spoken of above, etc., but he is never shown to do anything actually dangerous in the canon.

Certainly knowing that he is playing Voldemort, one knows danger lurked on the horizons. Killing Dumbledore and his escape was another moment where he was open to attack - and of course when he engaged in DE events like 7 Potters and such, he was also vulnerable to danger. But JKR wrote his character in such a way, at least to me, that one had to remind themselves that he might actually face harm because he was never actually shown to face any. She did take the time to show him misuse his power - like against Harry - and I know this was all to help spin along the red herring. But I feel that it killed her final attempt in the end to show his bravery by Harry mentioning it, by excluding any act from 7 books of canon in that regard. The closest thing we got was his duel - and I use that word very loosely - with McGonagall, in which he was not fighting to harm her, but on the defense.

It seems to me that Snape's character took a hit in that regard, and it could have been easily rectified by having him challenge Voldemort in the end. Slam dunk the dark lord with a knarly curse or two. It would have left him ambivalent if she'd written it in such a way that it was clear Voldemort believed him to only be struggling to live and not to defy. For example - he could issue the curses and then Voldy could say "aha! Just like Woolsworth, my followers care only for their own survival, but none can challenge me!" or something along those lines. Then I would feel like he actually had shown bravery in the series - rather than having to assume it based solely on conjecture. And it is especially bad because what JKR did show - like in Dark Lord Ascending - Snape did not appear to be in any danger at all. On the contrary, he looked like the top man who had Voldy's respect. So I am left with bravery that 'could have been'.

Snape did raise his wand at the end - but JKR had Nagini move too quickly. Still, I think it would have been better to allow him to show he would stand up. It would be misunderstood at the time by those who considered him evil (indeed like raising his wand), but clarified after the memories. And I doubt many would care much if JKR had substituted Snape dying at Voldemort's hand rather than being bitten to death by a Snake encased on his head. When I read DH, I felt JKR was dissing Snape quite openly by the manner she chose to kill him - but I felt he deserved it, so I approved. But I think her ending became diametrically opposed to the storyline due to the holes like this one in Snape's character; brave - show us! There were other holes in Snape's portrayal, but I think this was among the biggest.

As I say, his pain was largely a farce, imo, because although he felt it, and he built it up to something very grand and difficult for himself to handle, I cannot escape the fact that he was mourning over an individual he'd not had contact with for many years. He'd worked with a gang that was attempting to kill her during that time and a gang that killed many others beside her. Snape's mourning was pitiful, imo, because it was hallow and shortsighted, selfish and based, imo, on his imaginings - rendered largely immoral due to the cast he place upon them. The message Snape's character sought to portray, in my judgment, was: evil doers and vengeful offenders beware, because you reap what you sow.


I'm sorry, but who is ANYONE to say that someone else's pain isn't GOOD enough? I hadn't had a whole lot of contact with my grandmother in the two years before she died for various reasons and I assure you that didn't temper my grief in the slightest. No one has a right to dictate someone else's emotions. End of story.

This is the second mod warning to not make personal attacks. This thread is closed until further notice.

Let's try this again.

I'm going to post the How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=4630344#post4630344) post, even though most of you should know it:
*sigh* The CoS Staff keeps telling us to keep things friendly and polite! How can I do that AND stun the world with the brilliance of my ideas! How can I be both polite AND make sure everyone knows that I'm Right and They're Wrong?

A few tips:
Take a deep breath. It's possible that the other members do have something to contribute. Read their posts with an open mind and respond accordingly.
Avoid using the word "you" in a negative connotation. "Your idea is wrong" sounds more confrontational than "I don't like the idea that. . . ."
Support your ideas whenever possible but bear in mind that your ideas are only ideas. Your ideas are not canon unless JKR has said the same thing verbatim in a book or interview*.
Sometimes it's difficult to establish tone on the internet. Re-read your posts to make sure they couldn't be misinterpreted. Sometimes a smilie is useful to establish tone or connote friendliness.
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If you have any questions, feel free to owl any Unspeakable or Auror.

One of the reasons that this thread was closed was because the posts were getting too personal. You can always use the report post button to report rude posts.

And the ever useful: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=4630347#post4630347)


You do not have to like every character in the books. Many characters are frankly unlikable such as Umbridge. However, we do ask that you refrain from what we call bashing.

Examples:
Bashing: Umbridge is an evil troll who should be drowned in the lake!
Not-bashing: Umbridge behaved in a reprehensible manner towards Harry when she forced him to use the quill during detentions.
Bashing: Sirius is a nasty bully
Not-bashing: Sirius shows distrubing signs of bullying in SWM and my opinion is that this didn't change significantly in adulthood as evidenced by his treatment of Snape at Grimmauld Place.
Bashing: Snape is a vicious horrible man.
Not-bashing: Snape's behavior towards Harry and Neville throughout the series was unforgivable in my opinion.

There are two main things to keep in mind:

1. Many characters are beloved by fans. They are understandably offended by blanket statements implying their favorite characters are complete villains.

2. MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOU ARE POSTING YOUR OPINION WHENEVER POSSIBLE. "I think Snape is a bully" reads more friendly than "Snape is a bully". A little effort goes a long way.

JK Rowling has written a variety of complex characters but I think without exception none of them are perfectly good or perfectly bad. To treat them as perfect heroes or perfect villains is to do Rowling a disservice. We need to acknowledge both the faults and the virtues of each character in our attempts to understand them. .

I don't expect you to love every character but I do ask that you respect the opinions of those who do and that you attempt to see both sides when you post. To this end we're instituting a clear system for dealing with Character Bashing:

First offense: Owl is sent to member asking them to refrain from bashing and directing them to this thread.

Second offense: Member is removed from the forum/forums where the offense occurred for five days.

Third offense: Member is removed from the forum/forums where the offense occurred for thirty days.
As always if you see a post you find offensive use the report post function rather than replying in the thread and allow staff to deal with the problem.

And I'm just going to add my own little touch to this one: THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU CAN SAY "UMBRIDGE IS AN EVIL TROLL IN MY OPINION". Adding the "in my opinion" clause (or IMO) doesn't make it okay to circumvent the rules.

Character bashing is not allowed and many posts have been coming close to crossing the line.

The staff will be imposing temporary forums bans on repeat offenders according to the above guidleines.

Thank you for reopening the thread. :love:

I'm sorry, but who is ANYONE to say that someone else's pain isn't GOOD enough? I hadn't had a whole lot of contact with my grandmother in the two years before she died for various reasons and I assure you that didn't temper my grief in the slightest. No one has a right to dictate someone else's emotions. End of story.It's all down to interpretation and opinions, real life scenarios versus fictional characters. :)

One would presume that with the example provided that you had some form of close and mutual bond with your grandmother, a bond that was never broken. Of course you'd grieve at the loss of a loved one, despite having some separation between last visit and the funeral. This to me is completely normal and expected. But in Snape's case I'm not so sure that it is true.

Yes, Lily and Snape were best friends at school and retained their friendship at home. Yet Snape secretly held romantic feelings for Lily, feelings that he never expressed and to our knowledge were never reciprocated by Lily. To me there was never a close and mutual bond between Snape and Lily, just this friendship that had ended badly and Snape's unspoken feelings.

He blundered, in his pain and humiliation, and it ended up costing him his friendship of 5+ years with a childhood friend. While there'd have been some contact at school, as this would be unavoidable, I don't believe that Lily would have had contact with him while at home on holidays.

He becomes a Death Eater and while doing his job, unwittingly overhears a prophecy that concerns his Master, and so quickly ensures his Master is made aware, not realizing that what he provided is information that would then used to bring about the death of that same childhood acquaintence and ex-best friend approximately 6-7 years after their friendship had ended.

To me, his level of grief is out of character with facts comparable to real life scenarios. While I would be shocked and deeply saddened that a former friend - for whom I'd carried an unspoken love - had been murdered many years after the friendship had ended badly, and even more years since we'd have any contact, for me that grief would be tempered by the years apart.

He blundered, in his pain and humiliation, and it ended up costing him his friendship of 5+ years with a childhood friend. While there'd have been some contact at school, as this would be unavoidable, I don't believe that Lily would have had contact with him while at home on holidays.

He becomes a Death Eater and while doing his job, unwittingly overhears a prophecy that concerns his Master, and so quickly ensures his Master is made aware, not realizing that what he provided is information that would then used to bring about the death of that same childhood acquaintence and ex-best friend approximately 6-7 years after their friendship had ended..

The years in the quoted post are backward, for what it is worth. Sev was 9-10 when he met Lily (according to "The Prince's Tale" description of their first meeting), so the friendship lasted 6-7 years, 1-2 before school, 5 in school. She died between 5 and 6 years after they broke up.

Lily and Snape both finished Hogwarts in June 1978 (Lily accoring to her gravestone was born January 1960). Lily was killed in October 1981, a mere three years and few months after Severus last shared a classroom with her, 5 years and a few months after their friendship was ended by her. She was his first, best friend, as far as we can see.

Also, he was hugely invested in her continuing survival, having embarked on the very dangerous career of spy among the Death Eaters in exchange for the safety of her and her family, the bargain he made with Albus, something around 2 years after they last shared a class. This means she was hardly "out of mind" for him, whether or not he saw her, in the final year of her life. In light of this, I do not find his grief at all off.

Well, I did state that it was a friendship of 5 plus years, meaning more than just the five. As for how many years since the friendship ended, that would have been the end of 5th year during OWLs. Counting forward from that point her death does occur approximately 6-7 years after the friendship had ended. IMO. :)

While they had contact at school via sharing a few of the same classes or even on the train, I don't see it as being in any form 'meaningful contact'. For Lily, the friendship was over. Snape's deep and unvoiced feelings remained. But again, I do feel that the depth of his grief is out of character with comparable real world scenarios, even though I don't dispute that his grief is real or that he loved Lily.

The main problem we're facing here, in my opinion, is each of us projecting our own likely responses to a certain set of circumstances (myself included).

Jo had shown us Snape still hanging on to old feuds some 20 years later (James, Sirius, Lupin) with negative feelings of no lesser degree. So I don't find it hard to believe he would be hanging on to his bond with Lily for a couple of years with equally strong emotions.

Out of sight is not always out of mind.

Yes, Lily and Snape were best friends at school and retained their friendship at home. Yet Snape secretly held romantic feelings for Lily, feelings that he never expressed and to our knowledge were never reciprocated by Lily. To me there was never a close and mutual bond between Snape and Lily, just this friendship that had ended badly and Snape's unspoken feelings.

He blundered, in his pain and humiliation, and it ended up costing him his friendship of 5+ years with a childhood friend. While there'd have been some contact at school, as this would be unavoidable, I don't believe that Lily would have had contact with him while at home on holidays.

He becomes a Death Eater and while doing his job, unwittingly overhears a prophecy that concerns his Master, and so quickly ensures his Master is made aware, not realizing that what he provided is information that would then used to bring about the death of that same childhood acquaintence and ex-best friend approximately 6-7 years after their friendship had ended.

To me, his level of grief is out of character with facts comparable to real life scenarios. While I would be shocked and deeply saddened that a former friend - for whom I'd carried an unspoken love - had been murdered many years after the friendship had ended badly, and even more years since we'd have any contact, for me that grief would be tempered by the years apart.

I agree. I also feel that the canon provides evidence that their relationship had begun to taper off and fail prior to its official ending, and I feel Snape recognized this. I believe that is why he reached a point where he was able to utter the unforgivable term about her while she stood before him and a crowd of others. I think there was already a lot of frustration and jealousy involved that simply escalated at that precise moment in time. Hence, while they called themselves friends, I feel Snape understood that it was more in name than fact long before the friendship actually ended.

Nonetheless, I respect the fact that people will all have different takes on this, but I would agree that under the circumstances, Snape's grief appeared overboard to me. I do account for that in my interpretation though. That is, I don't believe he was faking it. I feel that he'd repressed his emotions for her upon becoming a Death Eater - when she'd married and had a child, clearly in love with another. However, I believe that when he determined that he might have real opportunity to be with Lily again, he allowed his emotions for her to swell. So I feel that for the most part, his grief was in reaction to what 'could have been'. This is a part of what I was referring to earlier. I think Snape recognized that Dumbledore felt this way, based on his behavior, and hence, Snape's reaction to Dumbledore's words in their meeting following the deaths of the Potters.

Hence, while they called themselves friends, I feel Snape understood that it was more in name than fact long before the friendship actually ended.

With all due respect, wick, I don't think we would get

“I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.”
“I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just – ”

it that was the case. Why would he - a Slytherin and "budding DE", to borrow a phrase - be lounging in front of the Gryffindor common room waiting for a girl who might not come, if he really understood their friendship was falling apart long before it actually happened?

I can't imagine any of his house members at the time looking kindly on this... Which brings me to another point: if he really valued his budding-DE-friends more than Lily, why would he risk their displeasure like this? He couldn't be 100% certain no one would see him waiting for her...

With all due respect, wick, I don't think we would get

“I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.”
“I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just – ”

it that was the case. Why would he - a Slytherin and "budding DE", to borrow a phrase - be lounging in front of the Gryffindor common room waiting for a girl who might not come, if he really understood their friendship was falling apart long before it actually happened?

Well I should clarify. I feel that Snape was fervently attempting to hold on to the relationship with everything he could. He by no means wanted it to taper off and end, imo. He wished to remain friends with Lily and hopefully more as I saw it. However, Lily was, per the memories, in my judgment, behaving in a manner that caused Snape to question her friendship with him - 'I thought we were friends - best friends'. I felt it was clear that Snape wanted to ensure that remained the case despite her behavior and attitude toward him. To me, that indicated that the relationship was failing, but not that Snape was ready or willing for that to be the case. So naturally he would wait outside of Gryffindor in said circumstance, imo.

I can't imagine any of his house members at the time looking kindly on this... Which brings me to another point: if he really valued his budding-DE-friends more than Lily, why would he risk their displeasure like this? He couldn't be 100% certain no one would see him waiting for her...

Well I don't feel many Slytherins hung out on the 7th floor near Gryff house, :lol: - there was no reason for them to be up there. Their house was in the Dungeon and it was late night. Also, I feel that if Snape's DE activities and friends were not more important to him, he would have eagerly and fervently voiced his feelings about that when it became clear that Lily was speaking in ultimatums - 'you've chosen your path, I've chosen mine' and 'you are planning to join [Voldy] with all of your friends' (all paraphrased). I feel at that point Snape understood that he was faced with a very tough choice, and he made it with silence, imo. I feel that is why JKR showed us a contrary reaction from Snape in the previous memory (#5) - where even when Snape had worked himself up into a state where the novel indicates he was 'incoherent' - he was still able to stumble out enough words to get his point across. So I don't feel that his silence was due to his state of mind in terms of being at a loss for words because he was stunned - rather he was at a loss for words because the truth was something that would not help his case and he could not lie without giving up his friends and activities, imo.

Which brings me to another point: if he really valued his budding-DE-friends more than Lily, why would he risk their displeasure like this? He couldn't be 100% certain no one would see him waiting for her...

He was known to be Lily's friend. If Lily has to defend her friendship with a member of the "Slytherin gang" to her Gryffindor friends, it seems to me very likely Severus had to defend his friendship with a Muggleborn witch to his friends, yet there they both were well into their fifth year, still nominally "Best friends". It seems clear to me that he did value her more highly than he did his friends in Slytherin, or his own safety (forget his housemates for a moment, he was hanging around alone in a dark hallway outside Gryffindor House?!), both then, and later. What he did not understand during his fifth year, was that he could not in the long run have both Lily and his Slytherin friends. When he realized this a few years later, he did not hesitate to risk his own death, and betray his other friends, for Lily's sake.

What he did not understand during his fifth year, was that he could not in the long run have both Lily and his Slytherin friends. When he realized this a few years later, he did not hesitate to risk his own death, and betray his other friends, for Lily's sake.

I agree - but I feel that when Lily ended the friendship in 5th year, he understood at that point that he could not have both - in the short term. Snape appeared to look upon betrayal rather lightly, imo. In the one situation we see him betray his friendship with Lily, then he betrays Dumbledore's confidence in the Inn, and finally he betrays Voldemort. Moral considerations aside, it would seem that Snape didn't really create definitive ties to anything in terms of loyalty, but rather he seemed to place his momentary desires above all.

In the one situation we see him betray his friendship with Lily, then he betrays Dumbledore's confidence in the Inn, and finally he betrays Voldemort.

I can't help but question this particular sentence, wick... Allowing, as you said, that he "betrayed his friendship with Lily" (by calling her a filthy Mudblood), I fail to recall "Dumbledore's confidence" you speak about - are you referring to the fact that he let Snape go after they caught him eavesdropping? "Confidence" is definitely not the word I'd use for that particular action. :lol:

At that point Dumbledore had no reason whatsoever to place Snape in his confidence, any more than any other patron they might have found listening at the door....

For both of the betrayals - metaphorical and actual - Snape (in my eyes, at least) makes adequate redress: he spends the last 15 years of his life making amends for the 5 years between SWM and the hilltop scene.

As for him betraying Voldemort... I can't really hold it against him, no matter how hard I try. ;)

For both of the betrayals - metaphorical and actual - Snape (in my eyes, at least) makes adequate redress: he spends the last 15 years of his life making amends for the 5 years between SWM and the hilltop scene.


Yes, you are right here.
What do you think, would it be fair to say that in his fifth year Snape was clever all right, but he wasn't wise?!

He was - in my view - kind of torn between wanting to stay friends with Lily, and wanting to impress by that "dark glamour" those Slytherin friends had, and he simply did not understand that this implied more than "defending" their relationship. I believe he only realised it when Lily said "you have chosen your path, and I chose mine". Or maybe not even then, but much-much later...
The wisdom came later with the disappiontment...

The wisdom came later with the disappiontment...

It usually does, unfortunately.

I'm not so sure it was wanting to impress, as much as wanting to fit in (with the Slytherin pals, not the DEs) - his only associates at school we know about are Lily, Mulciber, Avery and Malfoy Sr. Being pegged as "this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" didn't really bode well for social life outside the house of Slytherin... :relax:

I'm not so sure it was wanting to impress, as much as wanting to fit in

Yes, agreed, though I am sure I read somewhere that Jo said, Snape wanted to impress... even Lily with his "powerful friends" and himself being "powerful".

Well, he probably never stopped to think about the consequences, and I don't mean he should have had the foresight to see Lily's death, but what he was slowly becoming...

On a linked subject, though I know this is not a joint caracter analysis thread: do you feel that Lily wasn't mature enough at that time to fully understand what was happening with Snape - his inner struggle? I mean, they were teenagers after all...

I agree - but I feel that when Lily ended the friendship in 5th year, he understood at that point that he could not have both - in the short term.

That's really a key point imo!

He may have then understood that he couldn't have both in the short term. But I can't help thinking that he didn't understand that that it wasn't in the short term he couldn't have both - it was ever. I don't think he realised that until Lily became a specific target of Voldemort's. As Zara has pointed out once he understood that he made his choice.

That said I don't think 'having' her was the only thing that was important to him. Lily was one of the few people who was kind to him, who actively cared for him - I think simply knowing that she was still alive meant that he could see some goodness, or kindness in the world; and that was important to him. I don't think it was just Lily's life he was protecting when he went to both Voldemort & Dumbledore to protect Lily - I think he was also trying to protect that sense of goodness in the world which would bo gone if she died :)

*steps carefully into the thread* :whistle:

:)

I would like to return to the subject of Snape's courage, from an earlier post of Wick's on the previous page:

It seems to me that Snape's character took a hit in that regard, and it could have been easily rectified by having him challenge Voldemort in the end. Slam dunk the dark lord with a knarly curse or two. It would have left him ambivalent if she'd written it in such a way that it was clear Voldemort believed him to only be struggling to live and not to defy. For example - he could issue the curses and then Voldy could say "aha! Just like Woolsworth, my followers care only for their own survival, but none can challenge me!" or something along those lines. Then I would feel like he actually had shown bravery in the series - rather than having to assume it based solely on conjecture. And it is especially bad because what JKR did show - like in Dark Lord Ascending - Snape did not appear to be in any danger at all. On the contrary, he looked like the top man who had Voldy's respect. So I am left with bravery that 'could have been'.

Snape did raise his wand at the end - but JKR had Nagini move too quickly. Still, I think it would have been better to allow him to show he would stand up. It would be misunderstood at the time by those who considered him evil (indeed like raising his wand), but clarified after the memories. And I doubt many would care much if JKR had substituted Snape dying at Voldemort's hand rather than being bitten to death by a Snake encased on his head. When I read DH, I felt JKR was dissing Snape quite openly by the manner she chose to kill him - but I felt he deserved it, so I approved.

I read the reactions of some incensed Snape fans on Live Journal who felt that the author was indeed disrespecting the character profoundly by firstly portraying him at such a verbal loss before Voldemort and secondly in inflicting such a ghastly death on him. :whistle:

I do not share their opinion. OK, So Snape wasn't given the chance by his creator to defend himself against Voldemort. [off-topic]But I don't believe that she was 'dissing' Sirius Black by having Bellatrix get the better of him in a wand duel or that she was 'dissing' James Potter by not even giving him the chance to defend himself with a wand against Voldemort. [/off-topic] And I think the same holds true here. :cool:

Snape's death was certainly painful to read :sigh: but JKR also wrote a powerful and poignant final scene for him in which a merciful Harry (too merciful to gloat over the awful death of a man he still regards as a ruthless murderer and an implacable enemy) is able to show Snape some measure of compassion as he lies dying, and in which Snape seems to make some sort of conciliatory gesture.

I found the scene cathartic.

But I think her ending became diametrically opposed to the storyline due to the holes like this one in Snape's character; brave - show us! There were other holes in Snape's portrayal, but I think this was among the biggest.

When I read DH, I had not been in the position of analysing Snape's character for years, unlike many excellent posters on this forum. (Because I am really quite the fandom newbie, I only learned about the 'Snape loved Lily' theory about two weeks before DH came out, would you believe. :lol: )

I disliked Snape pretty solidly for the first four books (because of the way he treated the kids), and yet I was really fascinated by him too. When it was revealed in GoF that he'd been a DE, I knew that JKR was going to do something significant with his character.

When I read DH, the resolution of Snape's character arc all made sense to me and I had no questions about his courage. Even if JKR requires one to read between the lines (which she does with quite a few characters, not just Snape), I was able to accept that he'd shown a courage which was never seen and never acknowledged (except by Dumbledore), working in a highly dangerous position as Voldemort's favoured 'right hand man'.

Do I wish that some things in Snape's overall story arc had been constructed differently? Sure.

But then I think that about a few things in the Potterverse anyway. :lol:

It usually does, unfortunately.

I'm not so sure it was wanting to impress, as much as wanting to fit in (with the Slytherin pals, not the DEs) - his only associates at school we know about are Lily, Mulciber, Avery and Malfoy Sr. Being pegged as "this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" didn't really bode well for social life outside the house of Slytherin... :relax:

:rotfl: You have such a wonderful way of putting things Daggerstone! I completely agree. Outside Slytherin he was viewed as the oddball up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, while in Slytherin he was probably known as "this little oddball who is best friends with a mudblood."

Question here. Sorry if it has been discussed before here: Do you feel that Snape could have turned the story around if he could answer Lily's question? (I mean the one: "But you call everybody else of my parentage a mudblood, why should I be any different?")

Question here. Sorry if it has been discussed before here: Do you feel that Snape could have turned the story around if he could answer Lily's question? (I mean the one: "But you call everybody else of my parentage a mudblood, why should I be any different?")


I don't think it would have, because the problem was that Snape was treating her like an exception while treating others like her like dirt. He also demonstrated just how dangerous it was being allowed to be the exception to the rule, because those making the rule can snatch it away at any time on any whim. In my opinion, being able to articulate just why he made Lily an exception would not have changed the fact that he did make her an exception, which was Lily's objection. Snape needed to choose between the Death Eater Wannabe path and the Friends path, and adding more reasons why Snape thought she should be a special exception to the rule would not have changed that need to turn away from Dark Arts and bigotry.

Snape needed to choose between the Death Eater Wannabe path and the Friends path, and adding more reasons why Snape thought she should be a special exception to the rule would not have changed that need to turn away from Dark Arts and bigotry.

Yes, you are right that one more reason would have not made the difference, but if Lily understood him better cold she have explained why wasn't sufficient for her to be an "exception"? I think that is what I wanted to ask though I did not formulate it very good, I admit...

I honestly cannot see that there is any question about Snape's bravery, and I certainly don't think that one has to read between the lines in order to find it. How can his bravery be denied when he lies to Voldemorts face knowing that this is the Dark Lord is an accomplished legimens? If Harry is considered brave for facing Voldemort as he did (and I do consider Harry brave for this) then I think that Severus must also be considered brave for facing him and lying to his face. This must have got harder as the years passed and Severus distanced himself from his Death Eater values. It is hard enough not to show emotion, but he was in a position where any strong feelings he had inside (such as revulsion or pity) might have been picked up by a searching glance from Voldemort.

{slightly off-topic}I consider those that operate within the world of covert operations and espionage to be some of the bravest people alive - because they are in constant danger and frequently have no recourse to the justice system.

Yes, you are right that one more reason would have not made the difference, but if Lily understood him better cold she have explained why wasn't sufficient for her to be an "exception"? I think that is what I wanted to ask though I did not formulate it very good, I admit...

Okay, I see what you mean. I think the question might be better for the Lily thread or Lily and Snape thread, though, if it's about what Lily was capable of doing. As for Snape, I think Snape himself would have to shift in his perspective for Lily to have any impact in his thinking. The biggest change necessary would be for Snape to actually listen when she talked to him. I don't think anything she said or tried to explain to him, no matter how much she understood him, would make a difference if he still would not "hear" it.

Question here. Sorry if it has been discussed before here: Do you feel that Snape could have turned the story around if he could answer Lily's question? (I mean the one: "But you call everybody else of my parentage a mudblood, why should I be any different?")

No; because Lily knew Snape had been calling people by that name for years. Lily had chosen to break off the friendship sometime before the SWM and by the SWM they did not have a friendship at all. Lily was breaking off what IMO was almost a non-existent friendship from her side.

I honestly cannot see that there is any question about Snape's bravery, and I certainly don't think that one has to read between the lines in order to find it. How can his bravery be denied when he lies to Voldemorts face knowing that this is the Dark Lord is an accomplished legimens? If Harry is considered brave for facing Voldemort as he did (and I do consider Harry brave for this) then I think that Severus must also be considered brave for facing him and lying to his face. This must have got harder as the years passed and Severus distanced himself from his Death Eater values. It is hard enough not to show emotion, but he was in a position where any strong feelings he had inside (such as revulsion or pity) might have been picked up by a searching glance from Voldemort.

I agree. :tu: And also for facing his faults without blaming circumstances, childhood or others for it. That was his bravest deed IMO.

{slightly off-topic}I consider those that operate within the world of covert operations and espionage to be some of the bravest people alive - because they are in constant danger and frequently have no recourse to the justice system.

:agree:

I don't think anything she said or tried to explain to him, no matter how much she understood him, would make a difference if he still would not "hear" it.

That's how I read it. I think JKR wanted to convey that Severus was being obdurate rather than Lily being obdurate.

We are straying into 'Snape and Lily' territory though. :)

I honestly cannot see that there is any question about Snape's bravery, and I certainly don't think that one has to read between the lines in order to find it. How can his bravery be denied when he lies to Voldemorts face knowing that this is the Dark Lord is an accomplished legimens? If Harry is considered brave for facing Voldemort as he did (and I do consider Harry brave for this) then I think that Severus must also be considered brave for facing him and lying to his face. This must have got harder as the years passed and Severus distanced himself from his Death Eater values. It is hard enough not to show emotion, but he was in a position where any strong feelings he had inside (such as revulsion or pity) might have been picked up by a searching glance from Voldemort.

Now this I agree 100% with. :tu::tu::tu::tu:

No; because Lily knew Snape had been calling people by that name for years. Lily had chosen to break off the friendship sometime before the SWM and by the SWM they did not have a friendship at all. Lily was breaking off what IMO was almost a non-existent friendship from her side.

Definitely a 'Snape and Lily' subject, so I will respond in that thread. ;)

Question here. Sorry if it has been discussed before here: Do you feel that Snape could have turned the story around if he could answer Lily's question? (I mean the one: "But you call everybody else of my parentage a mudblood, why should I be any different?")

I have my opinion as to what he was attempting to nerve himself to say in answer, before Lily closed the door in his face. I think he was about to declare his love. How she would have reacted, I could not say; it is also OT for this thread. :)

It's not that I question Snape's bravery, I believe that what he did was tremendously courageous. It's simply that I don't believe his bravery and his final act wipes out all of his prior petty and spiteful behavior, of delivering that prophecy, the bullying of students, his taunting behavior towards his fellow Order members and peers, and his treatment of Harry.

{slightly off-topic}I consider those that operate within the world of covert operations and espionage to be some of the bravest people alive - because they are in constant danger and frequently have no recourse to the justice system.This is a broad swathe of cloth to be painted with the same brush, IMO. :lol: But if that's how you feel, that's how you feel.

Personally, I in no way, shape, or form see Peter Pettigrew as "one of the bravest people alive" simple because he spied upon the Order at Voldemort's insistence and betrayed his friends to their deaths. Nor do I see Snape's initial act of spying and obtaining that prophecy as "bravery", either.

Nor do I see Snape's initial act of spying and obtaining that prophecy as "bravery", either.

Well, no, neither would I. :hmm:

But I think Cathy was referring to his career as a double agent after he changed sides. :)

It's not that I question Snape's bravery, I believe that what he did was tremendously courageous. It's simply that I don't believe his bravery and his final act wipes out all of his prior petty and spiteful behavior, of delivering that prophecy, the bullying of students, his taunting behavior towards his fellow Order members and peers, and his treatment of Harry. That's the way I feel as well. I definitely consider Snape as being one of the bravest characters in his willingness to put himself in danger as a double agent. But in my opinion, it doesn't make up for his behavior - significantly, the way he treats the son of the woman he supposedly loved. I think if he truly, unconditionally loved her* he would have shown her son more respect upon first meeting him, because though Harry, Lily lives on. I could understand it if Snape had grown to dislike Harry later on, because in many regards, Harry is very similar to James (though not in the way that Snape remembers, aka the bullying James). But instead, he prejudges Harry, which kind of makes me think that his memory of bully!James outweighed the memory of his feelings toward Lily. But that's just my interpretation of things - I'd love to hear any differing interpretations.

*In saying this, I don't mean to downplay the strength of Snape's emotions toward Lily, because I do think they were very strong. But rather, I would term his feelings toward her as infatuation rather than love.

It's not that I question Snape's bravery, I believe that what he did was tremendously courageous. It's simply that I don't believe his bravery and his final act wipes out all of his prior petty and spiteful behavior, of delivering that prophecy, the bullying of students, his taunting behavior towards his fellow Order members and peers, and his treatment of Harry.

I don't think his bravery is supposed to wipe out his other character traits. Like Dumbledore's courage does not wipe off his manipulations or Sirius courage (in wanting to lead Voldemort astray and protect the Potters) does not make his actions in the werewolf incident acceptable and nor does James brave death make his actions in the SWM agreeable IMO.

Likewise I also think Snape's courage and his enormous bravery will not wipe out the man he was otherwise.

To me that man was bitter and lonely; I would not agree he was petty (with relation to the Gryffindors or Harry or showed favouratism towards the Slytherins) because he was playing a part.

I have not seen Snape other than a spy for Dumbedore, other than a man who promised DUmbledore he had Snape's help in protecting Harry Potter. So, I don't know how the man Snape would have reacted to Harry, Hermione or Neville or the Slytherins.

The spy Snape was, reacted the way we saw. He was a DE to all DEs and he was a nasty git to everyone other than DEs. He was never simply Snape. He was either a DE or a spy and both roles in the nature of the 3war we saw with the type of people involved as DEs, was a difficult role to play and a difficult road to walk. Added to that was his personal guilt, his bitterness and I feel Snape did better than his best.

I also realise others may not agree, but well, this is how I see it. :)

I would like to return to the subject of Snape's courage, from an earlier post of Wick's on the previous page:
I read the reactions of some incensed Snape fans on Live Journal who felt that the author was indeed disrespecting the character profoundly by firstly portraying him at such a verbal loss before Voldemort and secondly in inflicting such a ghastly death on him. :whistle:

Well I was not an incensed fan :lol:. It is just when I read his death via Nagini, it reminded me of Charity's death at the beginning of the book. While I understood that Voldemort could not use a wand, it seemed to me that there were a myriad of other ways Voldy could have killed him, considering he was a trusted servant - unlike Charity or the caretaker or Harry or Arthur or some other enemy. And I didn't feel like the symbolism was apparent enough to account for it - although it was there if one...read between the lines. :lol:.

I do not share their opinion. OK, So Snape wasn't given the chance by his creator to defend himself against Voldemort. [off-topic]But I don't believe that she was 'dissing' Sirius Black by having Bellatrix get the better of him in a wand duel or that she was 'dissing' James Potter by not even giving him the chance to defend himself with a wand against Voldemort. [/off-topic] And I think the same holds true here. :cool:

I felt she dissed Sirius too. She gave Lily and James no means to fight, so that is distinct, the symbolism more evident with Harry also having no wand and his drawing the comparison with his parents' deaths right in canon and Voldy being the one to remark on all three members of the family in that regard. But she had Harry call Sirius reckless (then undid that slightly by making him call himself reckless) - but went on to compare his death to Bella's in the end - reinforcing the idea that his recklessness was in part responsible for his death, imo. Yet she did show Sirius' bravery on page.

With Snape, The point wasn't that one cannot find bravery - one can likely compile a list of "in between the lines" bravery relative to Snape. But for Snape, I felt it was necessary to "show" due to the way she had written his character throughout the series. Show us in the memories or in that final scene - then I am not left raising a brown when Harry speaks at the end and asking, how? And I don't have to go back through the series in my mind and make things up - to add to the story and make it all fit.

Snape's death was certainly painful to read :sigh: but JKR also wrote a powerful and poignant final scene for him in which a merciful Harry (too merciful to gloat over the awful death of a man he still regards as a ruthless murderer and an implacable enemy) is able to show Snape some measure of compassion as he lies dying, and in which Snape seems to make some sort of conciliatory gesture.

Well I think that could have all remained as well. I didn't mean to suggest she change his scenes - just have him wind up and curse Voldy a couple of times - even miss - just show us Snape making a stand. And I think that it would have come off as a Death Eater - Slytherin - watching his own back in the scene and could be reevaluated in the memories, so I don't feel it would have changed anything.

When I read DH, I had not been in the position of analysing Snape's character for years, unlike many excellent posters on this forum. (Because I am really quite the fandom newbie, I only learned about the 'Snape loved Lily' theory about two weeks before DH came out, would you believe. :lol: )

Me either. I wrote a few posts, but largely ignored him. I hoped the theory (which I had heard) was wrong because I wanted a strong character. So I honestly read with an open mind also.

I disliked Snape pretty solidly for the first four books (because of the way he treated the kids), and yet I was really fascinated by him too. When it was revealed in GoF that he'd been a DE, I knew that JKR was going to do something significant with his character.

And then she did that... :lol:. She stole the dark, powerful character she'd weld, imo. I wasn't happy with that outcome.

When I read DH, the resolution of Snape's character arc all made sense to me and I had no questions about his courage. Even if JKR requires one to read between the lines (which she does with quite a few characters, not just Snape), I was able to accept that he'd shown a courage which was never seen and never acknowledged (except by Dumbledore), working in a highly dangerous position as Voldemort's favoured 'right hand man'.

I would disagree. I feel that quite often people are less willing to read between the lines for most characters, unless they partcularly like them. Hop over to the other character threads. :huh: While there is certainly some truth in the fact that the format of the novels precluded "showing" things through Harry, in the case of Snape, there was an opportunity in the memories and during his death scene. Still the ready defense is that one can read between the lines, but as a practical matter, the space in between the lines is blank and writing in is achieved in a different manner by every reader, imo. So I think it would have been good to show - in Snape's case - mainly because of the way his character was written throughout. As I said, Dark Lord Ascending did not help at all and it would have been a great scene to show the difficulties, if any, Snape had to undergo. But it just seemed to show that Snape was highly trusted, able to easily evade any entaglements and in little danger at all, imo. To top it off, the Malfoys (especially Draco) were allowed to get away with exactly that which readers assume would have gotten Snape killed. So I'm left feeling that if Snape behaved like any of them in that scene, he wouldn't be in any danger either. Draco's behavior was a clear display that his thoughts were not in line with the Voldy regime, imo. Narcissa and Lucius more tamely, but no less evidently out of line. Yet Voldy did not instantly raise up and kill them. Yet deceit and betrayal lurked at his doorstep quite obviously, imo.

I don't think it is that major of a point; it was just a thought I had pertaining to the connectivity of Snape's character as shown and as spoken about in the aftermath. And the focus is not on whether or not Snape could be found to be brave, but rather, the focus was upon whether or not he was shown being so in canon - especially in making a stand against Voldemort and everything he stood for that Snape was to have rejected. It is a point that I feel many would respond "who cares?" to - :lol:. But it was merely something I noted.

That's the way I feel as well. I definitely consider Snape as being one of the bravest characters in his willingness to put himself in danger as a double agent. But in my opinion, it doesn't make up for his behavior - significantly, the way he treats the son of the woman he supposedly loved. I think if he truly, unconditionally loved her* he would have shown her son more respect upon first meeting him, because though Harry, Lily lives on. I could understand it if Snape had grown to dislike Harry later on, because in many regards, Harry is very similar to James (though not in the way that Snape remembers, aka the bullying James). But instead, he prejudges Harry, which kind of makes me think that his memory of bully!James outweighed the memory of his feelings toward Lily. But that's just my interpretation of things - I'd love to hear any differing interpretations.

*In saying this, I don't mean to downplay the strength of Snape's emotions toward Lily, because I do think they were very strong. But rather, I would term his feelings toward her as infatuation rather than love.


I couldn't have put it better. :tu:. As an aside, this is actually a distinct topic from the character portrayal I was discussing above - although there is a tendency to link the two ideas. However, they are truly unlinked, in my mind.

Personally, I in no way, shape, or form see Peter Pettigrew as "one of the bravest people alive" simple because he spied upon the Order at Voldemort's insistence and betrayed his friends to their deaths. Nor do I see Snape's initial act of spying and obtaining that prophecy as "bravery", either.
Well no I wasn't referring to this sort of thing - and you're right it is a very broad swathe - I had in mind the special services (SAS etc) and the secret services (MI5 and MI6) as they are in the UK. I was really talking about people who "go behind enemy lines" and those that walk and talk with the enemy. I think that takes a lot of courage. In Peter's case he was passing information to Voldemort precisely because he was a coward and was too afraid not to - so no I don't think that is brave! :lol:

That's the way I feel as well. I definitely consider Snape as being one of the bravest characters in his willingness to put himself in danger as a double agent. But in my opinion, it doesn't make up for his behavior - significantly, the way he treats the son of the woman he supposedly loved. I think if he truly, unconditionally loved her* he would have shown her son more respect upon first meeting him, because though Harry, Lily lives on. I could understand it if Snape had grown to dislike Harry later on, because in many regards, Harry is very similar to James (though not in the way that Snape remembers, aka the bullying James). But instead, he prejudges Harry, which kind of makes me think that his memory of bully!James outweighed the memory of his feelings toward Lily. But that's just my interpretation of things - I'd love to hear any differing interpretations.
How can I resist such an invitation? :D

I think that Snape's feelings for Harry were extremely complex. (I feel a bit like Hermione explaining Cho to Ron and Harry) Firstly Snape hated James because James bullied him and he sees Bully!James whenever he looks at Harry; however he loved Lily but lost her (as he sees it) to James so he is also reminded that Lily loved another, and that other was, of all people, James. Then of course he feels guilty because he knows he is partly responsible for Lily dying; he also sees Harry as the reason Lily died (because she died to protect him)so he hates Harry for being the reason Lily died.
All this is tied up with a good dollop of self-loathing because he cannot forgive himself for what he did, so he cannot release himself from the burden of guilt that he feels.

I personally think he did love Lily - absolutely and totally. Unfortunately like so many of us in life he was also carrying vast quantities of emotional baggage and this combined with his passionate (some might say obssessive) nature impeded his ability to process his emotions and resulted in his lashing out and behaving inappropriately. Please note: I am not excusing his behaviour. He could not help how he felt, but he could control his behaviour; however I do understand why he behaved the way he did without condoning his behaviour.
With Snape, The point wasn't that one cannot find bravery Well I have no trouble seeing the bravery in Snape - none at all, and it doesn't require any reading between the lines.

just have him wind up and curse Voldy a couple of times - even miss - just show us Snape making a stand. And I think that it would have come off as a Death Eater - Slytherin - watching his own back in the scene and could be reevaluated in the memories, so I don't feel it would have changed anything.But why is it necessary for Snape to make a stand? There are other types of courage than "making a stand" and I find the implication that Snape wasn't shown to be brave because he didn't make a stand rather puerile.

But it just seemed to show that Snape was highly trusted, able to easily evade any entaglements and in little danger at all, imo.On the contrary I think it showed that Snape was extremely good at what he did. We know how he really felt from his conversations with Dumbledore so we did not need to see it exhibited in "The Dark Lord Ascending" - that chapter was where we saw Snape-the-Master-Spy at work doing what he does best. Just because he makes it look easy doesn't mean it is easy or that he isn't in any danger - rather it means he is very good at what he does.
The fact remains that before he returned to the graveyard Voldemort was intent on killing him; by the end of HBP he was Voldemort's most trusted DE. That didn't happen by chance or accident or luck. It happened because Snape worked at it.

With Snape, The point wasn't that one cannot find bravery - one can likely compile a list of "in between the lines" bravery relative to Snape. But for Snape, I felt it was necessary to "show" due to the way she had written his character throughout the series. Show us in the memories or in that final scene - then I am not left raising a brown when Harry speaks at the end and asking, how? And I don't have to go back through the series in my mind and make things up - to add to the story and make it all fit.





Well I think that could have all remained as well. I didn't mean to suggest she change his scenes - just have him wind up and curse Voldy a couple of times - even miss - just show us Snape making a stand. And I think that it would have come off as a Death Eater - Slytherin - watching his own back in the scene and could be reevaluated in the memories, so I don't feel it would have changed anything.

For me JKR does 'show' Snape's bravery. He is an ambiguous character. Not all bravery consists of standing out in the open, waving a sword and shouting defiance, to put it simply. Snape is a fantastic character (in my opinion) because he shows in a subtle way that bravery can exist in the shadows, behind the scenes, someone having the courage to take a stand and do it alone, where no one can see them. History has proven time and again people preforming incredibly brave acts that aren't always discovered/uncovered until many years later, in some cases.

To me that man was bitter and lonely; I would not agree he was petty (with relation to the Gryffindors or Harry or showed favouratism towards the Slytherins) because he was playing a part.I agree, he was bitter and he was lonely.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree with the idea that it was all a charade to protect his cover. JKR: I knew from the beginning what Snape was. Do I think he's a hero? To a point, I do, but he's not an unequivocally good character. Snape is a complicated man. He's bitter. He's ... spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But was he brave? Yes, immensely. Was he capable of love? Very definitely. So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us. Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. It's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway.Yet I didn't need the author to make this statement, as this was already my understanding of the character as he was portrayed in canon. To me, there are several instances shown in canon to support the petty spitefulness, such as the Hermione's teeth incident, destroying Harry's classwork & evaporating his potions, his comments to Ron about apparating, letting slip that Remus was a werewolf. To me, none of these instances had anything to do with his cover, and everything to do with his personality and I realize that everyone will have a differing opinion, but to me, Snape never allows his behavior to stray too far from his basic personality.

To me, none of these instances had anything to do with his cover, and everything to do with his personality and I realize that everyone will have a differing opinion, but to me, Snape never allows his behavior to stray too far from his basic personality.

I agree with that, actually. I think that Severus is always very much himself. I also think that helped him in being such a darned good spy. :relax:

Not to mention that he was awesomely good at both Occlumency and Legilimency.
:D :)

The negative behaviour towards his pupils varies in its intensity, IMO. I thought his remark to Ron in the DADA lesson was pretty funny, actually. :lol: Cutting, sure, but not as hurtful as his remark to Hermione about her teeth. :shrug:

His negative remarks about Harry to Bella and Narcissa at Spinner's End are a good case in point. Of course dissing Harry is part of his job. ;) But it's much more than that.

Here's my theory: I think that his negative remarks about Harry in that scene (e.g. about Harry being only 'mediocre' at magic, and as arrogant and self-satisfied as his father) are completely genuine. Snape means what he says, IMO. And yet at the same time I also think he deliberately exaggerates his dislike of Harry for good effect, playing up his perception of the boy's character flaws and (much more importantly) Harry's inadequacy as an enemy of Voldemort, purely for the benefit of Bella and Cissa. He doesn't have to feign his dislike of Harry, that's real enough. But I always wonder whether Snape really believed that Harry really was that mediocre. He was an intelligent man, and I doubt that is what he honestly believed about Harry's abilities.

That's my theory, and it makes sense to me, at any rate. :relax:

I think that Snape's feelings for Harry were extremely complex. (I feel a bit like Hermione explaining Cho to Ron and Harry) Firstly Snape hated James because James bullied him and he sees Bully!James whenever he looks at Harry; however he loved Lily but lost her (as he sees it) to James so he is also reminded that Lily loved another, and that other was, of all people, James. Then of course he feels guilty because he knows he is partly responsible for Lily dying; he also sees Harry as the reason Lily died (because she died to protect him)so he hates Harry for being the reason Lily died.
All this is tied up with a good dollop of self-loathing because he cannot forgive himself for what he did, so he cannot release himself from the burden of guilt that he feels.

I actually think you laid out how Snape saw it very well. As I read each sentence, though, that feeling you get in the chest when something is inherently 'wrong' goes off. It isn't really complex, imo, it is just a lot of issues all linked together in 1 person. But alone or together, I don't see how those issues could lead to complex or ambivalent feelings for Harry. I see them all leading to loathing for the child as JKR commented. I can't really pick one thing out that would result in a different feeling. The only thing I can think of - which isn't in the list, is that he was Lily's son too - but the thing is, I felt he never considered Harry in terms of solely that. Although I would agree that it is possible he let down his guard and accepted Harry as both Lily and James' son for 1 second right before he died, in order to see Lily's eyes. But even then, it was more letting his guard down rather than any change of feeling, imo.

But why is it necessary for Snape to make a stand? There are other types of courage than "making a stand" and I find the implication that Snape wasn't shown to be brave because he didn't make a stand rather puerile.

The fact remains that before he returned to the graveyard Voldemort was intent on killing him; by the end of HBP he was Voldemort's most trusted DE. That didn't happen by chance or accident or luck. It happened because Snape worked at it.

Right, but my point is that when I anchor that scene, I recall Snape on the hill pleading with Dumbledore. The risk is there, I do not deny that; but the bravery falls before Snape behaving in a cunning and quivering manner, imo. I have answered your first question below together with Annielogic's since they were similar. :)

For me JKR does 'show' Snape's bravery. He is an ambiguous character. Not all bravery consists of standing out in the open, waving a sword and shouting defiance, to put it simply. Snape is a fantastic character (in my opinion) because he shows in a subtle way that bravery can exist in the shadows, behind the scenes, someone having the courage to take a stand and do it alone, where no one can see them. History has proven time and again people preforming incredibly brave acts that aren't always discovered/uncovered until many years later, in some cases.

Yes, I feel that is the ideology JKR was pressing on the reader, so I do find your point valid. The problem is, I didn't buy it. Harry didn't differentiate - and so we are left with this ideology, one Harry himself did not strictly live by, suddenly floating around in the air, imo. It is not sudden in terms of canon - looking back, one can find a myriad of examples: Lupin living in the wizard world as a werewolf; Sirius' escape from Azkaban and hiding out to help Harry; Hermione riding to the MOM with her grand fear of horses; Hermione and Ron's decision to accompany Harry on the quest; Snape's spying, Lupin's spying, Neville and Harry preservering without parents; Molly raising 7 kids with little money to spare; Tonks never giving up on Lupin; Luna remaining in Ravenclaw, and on and on.

So if one buys into the undifferentiated idea, reading between the lines makes it a simple issue. Everyone is brave, everyone is a hero - including Mundungus. If one is not sold on the idea, even reading between the lines is problematic, imo. So it is for Snape (and all of the above examples) for me. Endurance, fortitude, diligence, loyalty, chosing to take a risk - these are all wonderful characteristics and I think all of those scenarios above and more show these elements. But bravery is something distinct to me - and I totally realize that everyone has their own definition of it - including JKR. It would just seem that she and I have to agree to disagree on everything that would fall into that category. That is only issue #1. A more fundamental problem for me is that I do not believe in levels of bravery. So for me, it makes it difficult to accurately assess Snape's character in that regard.

I agree with that, actually. I think that Severus is always very much himself. I also think that helped him in being such a darned good spy.

Not to mention that he was awesomely good at both Occlumency and Legilimency.Absolutely, I do feel this is what helped make him such a good spy, because to me he wasn't really fronting, he was just being himself while keeping important secrets.


The negative behaviour towards his pupils varies in its intensity, IMO. I thought his remark to Ron in the DADA lesson was pretty funny, actually.He did get some great lines. :lol:


His negative remarks about Harry to Bella and Narcissa at Spinner's End are a good case in point. Of course dissing Harry is part of his job. But it's much more than that.

Here's my theory: I think that his negative remarks about Harry in that scene (e.g. about Harry being only 'mediocre' at magic, and as arrogant and self-satisfied as his father) are completely genuine. Snape means what he says, IMO. And yet at the same time I also think he deliberately exaggerates his dislike of Harry for good effect, playing up his perception of the boy's character flaws and (much more importantly) Harry's inadequacy as an enemy of Voldemort, purely for the benefit of Bella and Cissa. He doesn't have to feign his dislike of Harry, that's real enough. But I always wonder whether Snape really believed that Harry really was that mediocre. He was an intelligent man, and I doubt that is what he honestly believed about Harry's abilities.Absolutely, he had to play up the dislike to a point, but I do feel this is exactly how he felt about Harry. He never really took the time to look beyond what he wanted to see, IMO.

For example, what he says to Bella and Cissy is quite similar to what we hear him reporting to Dumbledore that first year Harry was at school. This was a private meeting, in confidence with the one man that Snape really didn't have to keep secrets from: Dumbledore. This is one of the reasons, to me, that Snape's behavior and feelings weren't tied to his "cover".
Half-Blood Prince:

"Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all. He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree, though as obnoxious and self-satisfied as was his father before him."

Deathly Hallows:

Snape was pacing up and down in front of Dumbledore. "---mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent---"

To me, Snape didn't have to act the way he did in order to convince anyone that he was still a loyal Death Eater. IMO, Quirrell/Voldemort didn't buy that Snape wanted Harry dead, yet totally accepted his treatment of Harry as seeming hatred. So if Snape's alleged attempt to keep up a specific image in order to have the Death Eaters and Voldemort believe in his loyalty to them, well, IMO it failed miserably.
Philosopher's Stone:

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead."

Absolutely, he had to play up the dislike to a point, but I do feel this is exactly how he felt about Harry. He never really took the time to look beyond what he wanted to see, IMO.

For example, what he says to Bella and Cissy is quite similar to what we hear him reporting to Dumbledore that first year Harry was at school. This was a private meeting, in confidence with the one man that Snape really didn't have to keep secrets from: Dumbledore. This is one of the reasons, to me, that Snape's behavior and feelings weren't tied to his "cover".
Half-Blood Prince:

"Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all. He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree, though as obnoxious and self-satisfied as was his father before him."

Deathly Hallows:

Snape was pacing up and down in front of Dumbledore. "---mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent---"

To me, Snape didn't have to act the way he did in order to convince anyone that he was still a loyal Death Eater. IMO, Quirrell/Voldemort didn't buy that Snape wanted Harry dead, yet totally accepted his treatment of Harry as seeming hatred. So if Snape's alleged attempt to keep up a specific image in order to have the Death Eaters and Voldemort believe in his loyalty to them, well, IMO it failed miserably.
Philosopher's Stone:

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead."

I don't feel that Snape was playing up the dislike. I felt that he was being sincere there. I agree with you that it mimicks his comments to Dumbledore, that is why I find them truthful. I also feel that Quirrell was correct - and it reiterates what JKR has said. Additionally, it supports Snape's own words in DH when he told Dumbledore that he was not doing anything for Harry ("for him"?) before shooting off his doe to show he was doing it on Lily's behalf, imo.

These factors, together with Snape's general treatment of Harry and the numerous other comments Snape made to Harry in canon regarding his view of him, to me are sufficient canon evidence that Snape loathed Harry. I don't feel that JKR was ambivalent on that point in her writing of Snape's character or that the canon waivered in that regard.

A more fundamental problem for me is that I do not believe in levels of bravery. So for me, it makes it difficult to accurately assess Snape's character in that regard.

I believe we're making a difference between courage and fearlessness, wick. From what you wrote, I believe it's the latter you consider synonymous with bravery... In that case, I agree: I've never thought of Snape as "fearless".

Also:

Not to belittle the effect circumstances had on the examples you've shown but I hardly think Neville and Harry (in perservering without parents) or Molly (in raising 7 kids with little money to spare) had any choice once the situation was set, other than to actually renounce living. Snape, Lupin and Tonks, however... :shrug:

I believe we're making a difference between courage and fearlessness, wick. From what you wrote, I believe it's the latter you consider synonymous with bravery... In that case, I agree: I've never thought of Snape as "fearless".

No...fearless isn't my criteria :lol:. I don't know if anyone in canon was shown to be completely fearless...maybe Fawkes. But overcoming momentary fearlessness is certainly one factor.

Not to belittle the effect circumstances had on the examples you've shown but I hardly think Neville and Harry (in perservering without parents) or Molly (in raising 7 kids with little money to spare) had any choice once the situation was set, other than to actually renounce living. Snape, Lupin and Tonks, however... :shrug:

Well the examples were merely instances where I felt Endurance, fortitude, diligence, loyalty, chosing to take a risk and such were shown (one or a combination of those qualities.) These things require courage in one sense of the word. But they do not exemplify my idea of "bravery" in terms of fantasy/adventure literature. However, I feel it is very subjective and every reader will have their own take on courage and bravery. But that is why I personally thought it would have been good for JKR to show Snape taking an unequivocal stand against Voldemort at the end. Others might see that as completely unnecessary - so it is just a point of view thing.

A more fundamental problem for me is that I do not believe in levels of bravery. So for me, it makes it difficult to accurately assess Snape's character in that regard.

Ah, yes I think this might be where we differ. I see bravery as one of those virtues which has no moral compass aready attached. It's the person's actions and intentions that determine whether someone is 'good' or not.

For me, bravery is like intelligence, hard work, ambition, love, loyality, etc, they have a wide spectrum of intensity and various forms that they can become apparent. Humans are not simply black and white, these virtues manifest through us, and therefore are not one dimensional either. The above is obviously my opinion. :)

Ah, yes I think this is where we differ. I see bravery as one of those virtues which has no moral compass aready attached. It's the person's actions and intentions that determine whether someone is 'good' or not. For me, bravery is like intelligence, hard work, ambition, love, loyality, etc, they have a wide spectrum of intensity and various forms that they can become apparent. Humans are not simply black and white, these vitues manifest through us, and therefore are not one dimensional either. The above is obviously my opinion. :)

Um...I am not sure that is the point we disagree upon. I don't feel that bravery has any moral implications either. For example, I feel that Voldemort was shown to be brave in canon when he took on Dumbledore. Voldemort feared Dumbledore - I believe the canon said only Dumbledore. So he had to do something with that fear when he commenced battling (put it aside, overcome it, whatever). He also took an aggresive stance; standing up, face to face against his opponent, in defense of his belief. The risk involved is necessary, but the degree unimportant, imo, because it is very relative. But his defiance was open and unequivocal. The outcome is of little importance as well, imo.

Snape may have done this as a Death Eater - or he may have undertaken his actions in a different less confrontational manner as he was good at spying and doing things unobtrusively, imo. Canon doesn't give us any information on this. Oddly, we got more information on Lucius in that regard, as behind the scenes as he was. :lol:.

Um...I am not sure that is the point we disagree upon. I don't feel that bravery has any moral implications either. For example, I feel that Voldemort was shown to be brave in canon when he took on Dumbledore. Voldemort feared Dumbledore - I believe the canon said only Dumbledore. So he had to do something with that fear when he commenced battling (put it aside, overcome it, whatever). He also took an aggresive stance; standing up, face to face against his opponent, in defense of his belief. The risk involved is necessary, but the degree unimportant, imo, because it is very relative. But his defiance was open and unequivocal. The outcome is of little importance as well, imo.

Snape may have done this as a Death Eater - or he may have undertaken his actions in a different less confrontational manner as he was good at spying and doing things unobtrusively, imo. Canon doesn't give us any information on this. Oddly, we got more information on Lucius in that regard, as behind the scenes as he was. :lol:.

I wasn't just talking about moral implications. You posted earlier:

A more fundamental problem for me is that I do not believe in levels of bravery.

I also mentioned that I don't believe in one level/form of bravery. I see it as a wide spectrum with various forms/types. Including a brave act of defiance/support which can be quiet and hidden where it isn't always openly observed. To me this is brave because the person is still prepared to do what they can for the 'good' side, to save people, even while knowing they will likely die unrecognised for their actions. A brave action doesn't depend on the number of people observing it. Hopefully, I explained it better this time.

Not to belittle the effect circumstances had on the examples you've shown but I hardly think Neville and Harry (in perservering without parents) or Molly (in raising 7 kids with little money to spare) had any choice once the situation was set, other than to actually renounce living. Snape, Lupin and Tonks, however...
My thoughts exactly! I would not class what Harry Neville and Molly are displaying as "courage" or "bravery". Perserverance perhaps, or fortitude. :shrug:
I would regard lying to someones face knowing they can "read your mind" (sorry Professor!) and kill you should they discover that you are lying as very brave. It is a life or death situation which relies on a cool head, quick thinking and nerves of steel IMO.

I see bravery as one of those virtues which has no moral compass aready attachedSome acts of evil require the perpetrators to be brave - but we tend not to admire this bravery because it is for evil purposes - but it doesn't make it any less brave.


Perhaps it will help if we have some definitions :)

Courage n. the power or quality of dealing with or facing danger, fear, pain etc

brave adj. having or displaying courage, resolution, or daring; not cowardly or timid.

Well IMO according to those definitions Snape was both brave and courageous :D

I would regard lying to someones face knowing they can "read your mind" (sorry Professor!) and kill you should they discover that you are lying as very brave. It is a life or death situation which relies on a cool head, quick thinking and nerves of steel IMO.



That's a really good example of a bravery and a show of defiance, but done in a subtle and hidden way, but requiring no less courage in facing danger, which Snape does repeatedly.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree with the idea that it was all a charade to protect his cover.

I understand others may not view it so. :)

JKR: Snape is a complicated man. He's bitter. He's ... spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us. Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. It's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway.

And this is something I think JKR failed to put into the books, IMO. This paragraph, I cannot help but feel was to lift Harry rather than to discuss Snape. She's talks about how forgiving Harry was and that she wanted redemption and forgiveness for Snape.

Well that's her opinion and I respect that, but what I feel is that she gave through the books a redemption and forgiveness for Snape which was much different. It came by his work for the Order and the Light, Dumbledore (I trust you Severus; I am fortunate to have you) and Harry's acceptance of Snape (Albus Severus) and Snape's acceptance of Harry (the intensely personal memories).

If she wanted to convey through the books Snape hated Harry until the bitter end, she should have for me, had Snape making a mocking comment about the memories he saw in Harry's mind during their Occlumency lessons; or perhaps she should have made Snape give only the relevant memories and leave all the personal stuff, which is none of Harry's concern anyway or made Snape punish Harry very harshly for the wrong things he did do, like peeping into a teacher's memory, like casting the sectumsempra, like lying about the HBP's book IMO.

Then I do think there could be a case where one could agree with what the author says she had in mind for Snape.

But for me, those things did not come on page. She kept Snape silent on the memories that would have really humiliated him; she made Snape give an explanation through the memories for his conduct towards Harry for all the 7 years. She allowed Snape to show Harry's his shame (with Dumbledore on the hill), his grief (when Lily died), his love (the Patronus) along with his work for the Order.

such as the Hermione's teeth incident,

This was in GOF, when Snape's mark was growing stronger everyday and after people seeing the dark mark in the sky in the Quidditch world cup. Snape was at that point, already prepared to go back as a DE to Voldemort. It was at this time, in the presence of Slytherins all of them who turned out to be DEs that Snape commented about a muggleborn's teeth. It was not Hermione; it was a muggleborn Gryffindor IMO.

destroying Harry's classwork & evaporating his potions,

The only punishment Harry got for peeping into a teacher's personal stuff, something in a muggle school would have got him expelled or least suspended IMO.

his comments to Ron about apparating,

I don't remember this; I have to read it again lol. :)

letting slip that Remus was a werewolf.

Snape was doing his bit as a teacher. It was highly irresponsible of Remus to go down without taking his wolfsbane. Had Remus bitten or killed others it would have been terrible. And what was the guarantee that Remus would not forget again, in a School full of students, when he could forget just hours before the full moon? I don't think that's wrong.

CathyWeasley has also written about why Remus should resign in the Remus Lupin thread, which I'll copy here. It's an excellent post. :)

I can't excuse it either. It makes me feel quite annoyed that firstly Dumbledore stuck his neck out for Lupin to allow him to be taught at the school and he repayed him by going off on a jaunt with his friends every month. That however I can forgive as he was young and was being lead by James and Sirius. But then Dumbledore sticks his neck out for him again in inviting him to teach at the school and he doesn't even tell him that this mass murderer that is supposedly out to get Harry is an animagus! He didn't have to go into detail - he could have just said that he knew he learnt to do it when he was at school, but instead he said nothing. If Sirius really had been out to kill Harry then he might well have suceeded thanks to Lupin's witholding of evidence. And it was such a betrayal of Dumbledore's trust.

I thought Lupin was a good teacher, but I can easily understand why Parents would be alarmed at the idea of a werewolf teaching their children. I'm a parent myself, but it is hard to make comparisons to RL because - well this is a fantasy world. However I think that Lupin should have resigned regardless of anything Snape may have said. Having betrayed Dumbledore's trust and failed to take his potion it was IMO the least he could do. bold mine

I also mentioned that I don't believe in one level/form of bravery. I see it as a wide spectrum with various forms/types. Including a brave act of defiance/support which can be quiet and hidden where it isn't always openly observed. To me this is brave because the person is still prepared to do what they can for the 'good' side, to save people, even while knowing they will likely die unrecognised for their actions. A brave action doesn't depend on the number of people observing it. Hopefully, I explained it better this time.

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Yeah, I don't believe in all the levels and I don't credit all the different types in fantasy/adventure tales. Most acts discussed don't rise to the level of bravery to me.

However, I understand your view and from that standpoint, I would agree that one could say everyone in the series was brave. I just don't look at it that way - it is not an exciting way for me to understand and appreciate this kind of story. But I respect the fact that it works for other people. And that is why I was saying that for some, my idea for a stand up ending for Snape would not be important.

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Yeah, I don't believe in all the levels and I don't credit all the different types in fantasy/adventure tales. Most acts discussed don't rise to the level of bravery to me.

However, I understand your view and from that standpoint, I would agree that one could say everyone in the series was brave. I just don't look at it that way - it is not an exciting way for me to understand and appreciate this kind of story. But I respect the fact that it works for other people. And that is why I was saying that for some, my idea for a stand up ending for Snape would not be important.

Yeah, I suspected we had a misunderstanding somewhere there. :lol: I respect you look for something different in a story to myself, in the area we've been discussing. :)

This paragraph, I cannot help but feel was to lift Harry rather than to discuss Snape. She's talks about how forgiving Harry was and that she wanted redemption and forgiveness for Snape.I respectfully disagree. Yes, she talks of Harry forgiving - and to me there were many things for which Harry needed to forgive Snape, not just the murder of his parents. Yes, she's talking about forgiveness and redemption of Snape, who she mentions by name no less than four times, the man "Snape" who she describes behavior-wise.

I do not feel that simply because he was working for the good and the light, the fact that he was ultimately fighting for the right side or that Harry chooses to see the good and forgive the bad treatment, in any way absolves Snape of his behaviors. I think this is where we differ, because to me what your opinion presents - and to which you're completely entitled to - is that either his behavior was all subterfuge or completely excusable by his final acts and I just do not see it that way.

IMO, JO does provide ample canon to support her interview statement and not just regarding the Occlumency lessons but about Snape's overall behavior towards Harry. Here's just a few examples of it during those particular lessons. Harry sat down and so did Snape, his cold black eyes fixed unblinkingly upon Harry, dislike etched in every line of his face.
said Snape, his eyes narrowed malevolently.
Snape looked back at him for a moment and then said contemptuously,
Snape paused for a moment, apparently to savor the pleasure of insulting Harry
He smirked
"...dim though you may be."
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Snape was absolutely and sincerely trying to teach Harry Occlumency in order to protect himself, it's just that I agree with Dumbledore that it was a mistake to have Snape do the teaching - not only because Harry was destined to be terrible at the process because he couldn't shut down and wall off his emotions - a requirement it seems, to being a successful Occlumens. IMO, it was also a mistake to have done so because Snape couldn't let go of his life-long hatred of James Potter and seem to separate James from Harry, while Harry couldn't get beyond his feelings for Snape that were generated by the years of animosity between them, IMO.

Neither of them wanted this task, and I always wondered if the lessons weren't just about the lessons, but if it was somehow Dumbledore's way of tossing them together to see if they could find some commonality between one another. :shrug:

I believe that Snape would have been entirely in the right to punish Harry for the unwarranted trespass into his memories. IMO, Snape failed to issue the punishment because he was too enraged with Harry. Instead, Snape gave into his rage and attacked a 15 year old student. I'm not brushing aside what Harry did. He was completely in the wrong and deserved punishment. That isn't what he got, IMO.like casting the sectumsempraHarry did receive punishment for this. IMO it wasn't a sufficient punishment for using a Dark Curse, one invented by Severus Snape and known to have been his specialty, but who set the punishment? Professor Severus Snape. He devised it to be not just a punishment that was repetitively tedious, but as an emotional torment - which takes it out of the realm of punishment, IMO, and firmly places it into emotional abuse.

Yet it was up to Snape to call Harry on the lie about the book and punish him for this violation, but Snape didn't. He was reformed, wasn't he? Why didn't he punish Harry for the lie that he knew it was? Why miss the opportunity? Yet he did fail to punish and this is not Harry's fault.

Regarding the Prince's book, I always saw this in terms of Harry in the mirror, meaning I've always seen Snape as having put this book away so that it was out of sight and out of mind.
But for me, those things did not come on page. She kept Snape silent on the memories that would have really humiliated him; she made Snape give an explanation through the memories for his conduct towards Harry for all the 7 years. She allowed Snape to show Harry's his shame (with Dumbledore on the hill), his grief (when Lily died), his love (the Patronus) along with his work for the Order.But once again, I'd disagree that this was *proof* that Snape wasn't petty or spiteful or a bully. The memories were necessary in providing proof that Snape had chosen to work for Dumbledore and had attempted to undo what he'd unwittingly set in motion. This to me in no way wipes the slate clean regarding his behavior and treatment - not just towards Harry - but towards the students, the faculty, the other Order members too.

I'd also comment and say that it was probably a necessity that Harry see that one memory first, in which Snape is bullied. Not just to be able to see and understand that his father was a bullying git, that he wasn't perfect, nor just to be able to see a commonality between himself and Snape. I feel that had Harry never viewed that memory, then when it came time at the very end, when we're finally learning of Snape's past and the truthfulness of his loyalty, Harry would have been caught up in "his father and Sirius" as he was the first time he'd seen it, rather than focusing on Snape/Lily as he did in that second viewing.
She allowed Snape to show Harry's his shame (with Dumbledore on the hill), his grief (when Lily died), his love (the Patronus) along with his work for the Order.Well, I don't see that at the time Snape provides those memories that he has anything to hide anymore, shameful or otherwise. He's dying, what does he care if Harry viewed those memories? Snape has reached his own peace at this point and had let go. Too, it was absolutely necessary for him to provide those memories because I don't personally feel that Harry would have trusted/believed without seeing that remorse regarding Lily's and Dumbledore's deaths.

This was in GOF, when Snape's mark was growing stronger everyday and after people seeing the dark mark in the sky in the Quidditch world cup. Snape was at that point, already prepared to go back as a DE to Voldemort. It was at this time, in the presence of Slytherins all of them who turned out to be DEs that Snape commented about a muggleborn's teeth. It was not Hermione; it was a muggleborn Gryffindor IMO.Because the Dark Mark was growing stronger - IMO, to which in canon we have no evidence that at this particular point in time in the canon, BTW - it was okay to humiliate a student? Snape had, to put it bluntly, known that Voldemort would return at some point for the past 13 years. So to see this as a new realization to him or something he needed to get ready for by humiliating a Muggleborn student is more than a little much for me to swallow. :lol:

The comment was made in the presence of Slytherins and others. While a few were the children of Death Eaters this does not mean that every Slytherin student present were as well, so I disagree with this idea.

Do we actually have any instance of Snape's behavior being conveyed through those students to Voldemort? I cannot recall one. The one instance of Snape's behavior towards his students conveyed in this manner is that of the first year, where Voldemort viewed it all first hand, and according to Quirrell - who was possessed by Voldemort the entire time - the treatment didn't equate to loyal Death Eatery-ness to Voldemort.

The only punishment Harry got for peeping into a teacher's personal stuff, something in a muggle school would have got him expelled or least suspended IMO.No. I completely disagree.
One, it doesn't address the vanishing of Harry's work and giving him zeros, which Snape'd done several times previous. Nor does it, to me, address the deliberate destruction of a completed assignment. Two, trespass in a Muggle school would not automatically equate to expulsion {and I've personal experience with my niece to back me up on this, as she'd been left unattended in an empty classroom for a detention during recess and took it as an opportunity to look through her fellow classmates/teachers belongings---yes, she got caught and yes, she was very severely punished for it at home as well as school, but she was not expelled}. Three, since when does the deliberate destruction of a student's work in order to give them a failing grade equate to "punishment" for a prior misbehavior? Would this fly at any school in the world? No, not IMO.The destruction of Harry's schoolwork wasn't punishment. This was abuse of power on Snape's part, over-stepping his authority as a teacher, and a IMO a very childish attempt to "get back at" Harry.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly disapprove of what Harry did and believe that he should have been punished severely for it. It was disrespectful to say the very least. Punishment should have been forth-coming, but punishment that is standard-issue for infractions at school, not a physical attack and not destruction of schoolwork.
I don't remember this; I have to read it again lol. :lol: It was a total sweetheart of a line:

"I would expect nothing more sophisticated from you, Ronald Weasley, the boy so solid he cannot Apparate half an inch across a room."
Snape was doing his bit as a teacher. It was highly irresponsible of Remus to go down without taking his wolfsbane. Had Remus bitten or killed others it would have been terrible. And what was the guarantee that Remus would not forget again, in a School full of students, when he could forget just hours before the full moon? I don't think that's wrong.Doing his "bit" as a teacher? I disagree. All of the teachers knew that Lupin was a werewolf and none divulged it to their students during the school year or after this incident even, none except Snape. It wasn't Snape's duty to violate this secret to protect the children from further risk either, just as it wasn't Snape's responsibility to address this issue, but Dumbledore's.

The date of appeal/execution of Buckbeak was set for June 6th, this would have been the same date as the full moon. As a full moon occurs roughly every 29-30 days, the summer holidays would have already begun by the time the next full moon had rolled around. All of the students would have gone home, and generally speaking, so would the staff that lived off-campus during holidays. What exactly was Snape supposedly saving students from again, if it wasn't exposure to a ravening transformed werewolf?

Snape wasn't saving the students from anything, IMO. He deliberately let it slip that Remus was a werewolf and this was, IMO, his spiteful way of getting back at Lupin and at Black - who Snape felt Lupin had been helping all year.

You say that Lupin was irresponsible for not taking the potion. Is it truly irresponsible of him for rushing off to save Harry Potter from Sirius Black and, incredibly, Peter Pettigrew - a man who was supposed to have died 12 years previous? How so? Did he know when exactly Snape was going to deliver his goblet of potion? I don't think so. Should he have waited around until it was delivered? Wasted time searching for Snape and saying "Can I have my potion and then let's go save Harry Potter together?":lol:

The one time we've seen the goblet of Wolfsbane potion delivered it was mid-day. On this particular occasion, however, it was late on a summer day as the sun was going down. Why the disparity? An argument could be made that there was no set time, just when Snape got around to bringing it to Remus.

If it was irresponsible for Remus to rush to Harry's aid instead of waiting about for Snape to deliver his potion so that it could be taken, then it must be said that Snape was also irresponsible for not successfully delivering the potion so that it could be consumed. He, after all, had it with him and knew exactly how important it was for Remus to take. He'd gone to Lupin's office with it for just that purpose. Yet knowing that Remus was a werewolf, that the full moon was that very evening, and that the potion absolutely had to be administered, instead of Snape taking it with he sets the potion down on Remus's desk, picks up the Map, and then apparently doesn't give it another thought as he too rushes to Harry's aid.

Doing his "bit" as a teacher? I disagree. All of the teachers knew that Lupin was a werewolf and none divulged it to their students during the school year or after this incident even, none except Snape. It wasn't Snape's duty to violate this secret to protect the children from further risk either, just as it wasn't Snape's responsibility to address this issue, but Dumbledore's.

The date of appeal/execution of Buckbeak was set for June 6th, this would have been the same date as the full moon. As a full moon occurs roughly every 29-30 days, the summer holidays would have already begun by the time the next full moon had rolled around. All of the students would have gone home, and generally speaking, so would the staff that lived off-campus during holidays. What exactly was Snape supposedly saving students from again, if it wasn't exposure to a ravening transformed werewolf?

Snape wasn't saving the students from anything, IMO. He deliberately let it slip that Remus was a werewolf and this was, IMO, his spiteful way of getting back at Lupin and at Black - who Snape felt Lupin had been helping all year.

You say that Lupin was irresponsible for not taking the potion. Is it truly irresponsible of him for rushing off to save Harry Potter from Sirius Black and, incredibly, Peter Pettigrew - a man who was supposed to have died 12 years previous? How so? Did he know when exactly Snape was going to deliver his goblet of potion? I don't think so. Should he have waited around until it was delivered? Wasted time searching for Snape and saying "Can I have my potion and then let's go save Harry Potter together?":lol:

The one time we've seen the goblet of Wolfsbane potion delivered it was mid-day. On this particular occasion, however, it was late on a summer day as the sun was going down. Why the disparity? An argument could be made that there was no set time, just when Snape got around to bringing it to Remus.

If it was irresponsible for Remus to rush to Harry's aid instead of waiting about for Snape to deliver his potion so that it could be taken, then it must be said that Snape was also irresponsible for not successfully delivering the potion so that it could be consumed. He, after all, had it with him and knew exactly how important it was for Remus to take. He'd gone to Lupin's office with it for just that purpose. Yet knowing that Remus was a werewolf, that the full moon was that very evening, and that the potion absolutely had to be administered, instead of Snape taking it with he sets the potion down on Remus's desk, picks up the Map, and then apparently doesn't give it another thought as he too rushes to Harry's aid.

I agree. In my judgment Snape's sole purpose was to behave in a vindictive and spiteful manner toward Lupin. I felt that his behavior toward him in the shack (binding him up and planning to drag him through the grounds) together with his comments the next day (fraternizing with a dark creature and murderer) indicated that Snape had no respect for Lupin as a sentient being, imo. Snape's ratting him out to the Slytherins had very dire consequences for Remus in as far as a future job and later when his whole family was targeted by Voldemort. That Lupin remained civil to Snape was amazing, imo, but he was grateful for his having made the potion and I think he understood the dire consequences of holding grudges. I also agree that if Snape really cared, he would have taken the potion with him down to the shack. But his purpose was otherwise, imo. Remus would not retain the job as no dark teacher ever did; plus he'd already resigned. From a professional standpoint, Snape's behavior was inappropriate, imo. Nonetheless, in the end I think Snape realized all of the wrong he'd done toward Lupin because he did try to save him in 7 Potters and I think he did so out of feelings of guilt for the hardships he'd caused a sentient that was unable to change the immutable trait of being a werewolf.

I also agree that if Snape really cared, he would have taken the potion with him down to the shack.I just want to qualify that I don't feel that either Remus or Severus were "irresponsible" with the failure to consume/administer the Wolfsbane potion. IMO, they both reacted in a positive and completely understandable manner, by seeing the real possibility of danger to Harry the urge to rush in and save him drives thought of everything else from their minds.

The highest I can go is "thoughtless" but again, understandable under the given set of circumstances. ;)

I just want to qualify that I don't feel that either Remus or Severus were "irresponsible" with the failure to consume/administer the Wolfsbane potion. IMO, they both reacted in a positive and completely understandable manner, by seeing the real possibility of danger to Harry the urge to rush in and save him drives thought of everything else from their minds.

The highest I can go is "thoughtless" but again, understandable under the given set of circumstances. ;)

I agree. I meant "really cared" about the dangers of Lupin's transforming and potential danger thereof - above other considerations. :) It was simply a negative factor concerning Lupin to Snape, imo. In other words, I don't feel he was a big time advocate against werewolves.

Snape presumably allowed the information that Lupin was a werewolf "slip out" - much as it had "slipped out" when he called Lily a filthy little mudblood. In both cases, the parties that were affected referred to the term "slip/slipped out" with disdain, imo. That is the canon "cue" upon which I based my ultimate view of Snape's behavior.

I think this is where we differ, because to me what your opinion presents - and to which you're completely entitled to - is that either his behavior was all subterfuge or completely excusable by his final acts and I just do not see it that way.

I am not excusing his behaviour, I am also not connecting it to the final acts; but I am seeing and understanding an explanation for his actions you have mentioned.

If it was about whether Snape hated James or Sirius, I would agree. He loathed them; I do think Snape had nothing good to say about certain people, but somehow in the books Snape for me comes across as a person with not so much hate towards the present students, as he did with some students of the past. I also think that hate included himself for his actions before he turned.

While I realise you see him differently, I somehow don't see him as a bully or spiteful, based on Harry's observations that he was malevolent, smirking with glee at Harry's misfortune or hateful towards all Gryffindors. He certainly did not hate the Head of Gryffindor McGonagall, who was more Gryffindor than anyone else.

As I wrote before in the books I have not seen Snape the man; I have only seen Snape the spy for and on Voldemort, Snape playing a part in School for the Slytherins and Snape the DE in Voldemort's presence.

I don't know how Snape would be if he was not ruled by his work for both Voldemort and Dumbledore.

The Snape whose actions are harsh and those which have been called nasty are the actions of Snape the spy who I see through Harry's eyes in the books (Harry's filter, I think it's called) and so seeing those actions in that light, I reached a different conclusion. That's all. I respect that others reach a totally different idea of Snape. :)

Snape wasn't saving the students from anything, IMO. He deliberately let it slip that Remus was a werewolf and this was, IMO, his spiteful way of getting back at Lupin and at Black - who Snape felt Lupin had been helping all year.

And I think Snape was not wrong in thinking Lupin was helping Sirius. He was. Lupin had kept important information of Sirius's animagus, which had Sirius actually been a DE, would have resulted in Harry's death. For which alone Lupin IMO should have resigned.

You say that Lupin was irresponsible for not taking the potion.

Yes.

Is it truly irresponsible of him for rushing off to save Harry Potter from Sirius Black and, incredibly, Peter Pettigrew - a man who was supposed to have died 12 years previous? How so?

Because instead of saving them, he would have ended up killing them.

Did he know when exactly Snape was going to deliver his goblet of potion? I don't think so. Should he have waited around until it was delivered? Wasted time searching for Snape and saying "Can I have my potion and then let's go save Harry Potter together?":lol:

Why should he wait for Snape to bring the potion for him. He could have gone to Snape and got the potion from him, before going down to the shack. Or he could have sent a Patronus to Dumbledore; saves more time and saves the kids. Sirius Black the traitor DE was in the shack with Harry and the other 2, along with Peter. Should not Dumbledore be told?

Had he then Dumbledore would have helped Sirius and Remus would have endangered no one. And after this had Snape told the world about Remus, then I think he would be in the wrong. The way events took place, I do think Snape was right in telling everyone and practically forcing Remus to leave IMO.

If it was irresponsible for Remus to rush to Harry's aid instead of waiting about for Snape to deliver his potion so that it could be taken, then it must be said that Snape was also irresponsible for not successfully delivering the potion so that it could be consumed.

Well considering the fact Remus was in need and that Snape was doing a favour, I think it would not take anything away from Remus, if he went to Snape to ask for the goblet, knowing the repercussions of changing without the wolfsbane. I don't see how Snape is held responsible for Remus not taking the goblet. And we don't know if it needed to be taken just once in a day or twice or thrice. And even if it was, then I think the responsibility lies with Remus (as an adult) instead of with Snape.

Why should he wait for Snape to bring the potion for him. He could have gone to Snape and got the potion from him, before going down to the shack. Or he could have sent a Patronus to Dumbledore; saves more time and saves the kids. Sirius Black the traitor DE was in the shack with Harry and the other 2, along with Peter. Should not Dumbledore be told?

Snape didn't tell Dumbledore either. I feel that Snape saw an opportunity to be the hero and capture Black and Lupin in the midst of killing Harry Potter and ran down to the shack - just has Lupin had seen Peter and Sirius on the map and Harry and friends moving toward it and ran. They had other thoughts on the mind.

Snape never explained why Lupin hadn't just killed Harry during the long school year. His response was "don't ask me to fathom the mind of a werewolf". That does not answer the question, imo. Later Snape was going to drag Lupin disrespectfully about the grounds and have him kissed - and the next day he called Lupin a a dark creature - comparatively with a murderer. So I don't feel that the canon is suggesting that Snape had the good will of the students at heart when he ratted out Lupin. I think he was getting back at Lupin because he still felt a desire for revenge against him and Sirius. Sirius was gone, but Snape seemed to wish for revenge against Lupin as well, imo.

Snape couldn't know it would end up doing such extreme damage - but that is Snape's excuse throughout the series, imo. He made the same claim when he called Lily a mudblood, when he delivered the prophecy, here ratting out Lupin and in his treatment of the kids, where it resulted in further negative consequences due to their mistrust and dislike of him. So I think it was just a characteristic problem Snape had of acting before thinking things through. Generally, I feel this occurred when he was acting on feelings of vengeance, although not exclusively.

Snape didn't tell Dumbledore either. I feel that Snape saw an opportunity to be the hero and capture Black and Lupin in the midst of killing Harry Potter and ran down to the shack - just has Lupin had seen Peter and Sirius on the map and Harry and friends moving toward it and ran. They had other thoughts on the mind.

Snape could have told Dumbledore yes, I agree; I think he should have sent a Patronus or something.

I don't know if Snape saw himself as a hero, personally I don't think he did; I think his only thought was to get Black kissed as per the Ministry Order and stop Lupin from helping Black, for Snape would have felt his suspicions of Lupin helping Black justified, seeing Lupin with Black in the Shack.

Snape never explained why Lupin hadn't just killed Harry during the long school year. His response was "don't ask me to fathom the mind of a werewolf". That does not answer the question, imo. Later Snape was going to drag Lupin disrespectfully about the grounds and have him kissed - and the next day he called Lupin a a dark creature - comparatively with a murderer. So I don't feel that the canon is suggesting that Snape had the good will of the students at heart when he ratted out Lupin. I think he was getting back at Lupin because he still felt a desire for revenge against him and Sirius. Sirius was gone, but Snape seemed to wish for revenge against Lupin as well, imo.

I respectfully disagree. But even if I were to take up your point, I feel it was extremely negligent of Lupin to go anywhere near another student or human, knowing full well, what the repercussions would be.

Had Fudge or anyone else knew about what Lupin had done that night, Lupin would have been kissed as quickly as Barty Crouch Jr IMO.

Dumbledore saved him once again from that fate and Snape did not reveal Lupin had transformed without a potion to Fudge. He could have and Lupin would have been arrested. but Snape talks only about Sirius that night when he did not know the facts and later, when he knows the facts, he stops talking about Sirius being the traitor as well IMO.

Snape couldn't know it would end up doing such extreme damage - but that is Snape's excuse throughout the series, imo. He made the same claim when he called Lily a mudblood, when he delivered the prophecy, here ratting out Lupin and in his treatment of the kids, where it resulted in further negative consequences due to their mistrust and dislike of him. So I think it was just a characteristic problem Snape had of acting before thinking things through. Generally, I feel this occurred when he was acting on feelings of vengeance, although not exclusively.

Had Snape spoke about Lupin's transformation to Fudge, then yes, he could have done lasting damage. But he does not talk about the danger Lupin was. He only spoke about kissing Black and at that time, he saw Black as the Potters killer only.

Snape had he been the real vengeful, malevolent type, would have also included Lupin as co-conspirator and someone who forgets to take wolfsbane. he could have told Fudge that Lupin was about to kill Harry Potter and that alone would have had Lupin kissed.

Snape never speaks about Lupin to Fudge. He even defends the three's actions. He says they were not responsible, but were Confunded by Black.

Snape wanted to get Black kissed because he was the traitor. He left lupin's actions out of the picture and by doing so saved Lupin from death IMO.

I do feel that Snape's actions are different from what he says and speaks, which is an act as he waits for Voldemort to surface. This is yet another example of Snape's silence which saved a life (Lupin), when a truly vengeful, thoughtless, selfish and negative character would have acted differently IMO.

posted by Kat_Suki
If it was irresponsible for Remus to rush to Harry's aid instead of waiting about for Snape to deliver his potion so that it could be taken, then it must be said that Snape was also irresponsible for not successfully delivering the potion so that it could be consumed. He, after all, had it with him and knew exactly how important it was for Remus to take. He'd gone to Lupin's office with it for just that purpose. Yet knowing that Remus was a werewolf, that the full moon was that very evening, and that the potion absolutely had to be administered, instead of Snape taking it with he sets the potion down on Remus's desk, picks up the Map, and then apparently doesn't give it another thought as he too rushes to Harry's aid.

Not when he thought Lupin was helping a murderer. Snape would not have assisted a killer's accomplice, which is how he would have seen Lupin at that time IMO.

Snape could have told Dumbledore yes, I agree; I think he should have sent a Patronus or something.

I don't think it would cross his mind at that time. But I agree it would have been good for Dumbledore to be informed in that situation.

I respectfully disagree. But even if I were to take up your point, I feel it was extremely negligent of Lupin to go anywhere near another student or human, knowing full well, what the repercussions would be.

I respect your view, but I still don't understand why Snape felt Lupin hadn't tried to kill Harry throughout the school year.

Had Fudge or anyone else knew about what Lupin had done that night, Lupin would have been kissed as quickly as Barty Crouch Jr IMO.
Dumbledore saved him once again from that fate and Snape did not reveal Lupin had transformed without a potion to Fudge. He could have and Lupin would have been arrested. but Snape talks only about Sirius that night when he did not know the facts and later, when he knows the facts, he stops talking about Sirius being the traitor as well IMO.

I respect your view. My interpretation was that Snape didn't say anything because he knew it would implicate Dumbledore and he did not wish to have Dumbledore sanctioned by the Ministry. I agree that Snape's main focus was upon having Sirius kissed, but I feel that because he lost out when it came to Sirius, he took out his revenge on Lupin.

Snape had he been the real vengeful, malevolent type, would have also included Lupin as co-conspirator and someone who forgets to take wolfsbane. he could have told Fudge that Lupin was about to kill Harry Potter and that alone would have had Lupin kissed.

I would respectfully disagree. There is no canon that werewolves were kissed for merely transforming. If there would be sanctions for Lupin being allowed on the grounds and allowed to teach - it would be Dumbledore who would get in trouble. I don't think Snape wished to make trouble for Dumbledore.

I do feel that Snape's actions are different from what he says and speaks, which is an act as he waits for Voldemort to surface. This is yet another example of Snape's silence which saved a life (Lupin), when a truly vengeful, thoughtless, selfish and negative character would have acted differently IMO.

I respect your view, but my interpretation was that Snape's actions did not help the children at all. Lupin had already resigned; Snape knew DADA professors all left after one year; Lupin found it impossible to find work after the universal exposure and Voldemort targeted him and his family for death because he was a werewolf and married Tonks. In my opinion, Snape was responsible for all of that - and I feel Snape understood that. I feel that is what motivated him to attempt to save Lupin in 7 Potters. A botched effort, but he did try.

I would respectfully disagree. There is no canon that werewolves were kissed for merely transforming. If there would be sanctions for Lupin being allowed on the grounds and allowed to teach - it would be Dumbledore who would get in trouble. I don't think Snape wished to make trouble for Dumbledore.

I don't think TGW meant that Lupin would get kissed for merely turning into werewolf. I suspect she meant, Snape could have told Fudge that Lupin aided an escaped convict/suspected murderer and intended to harm/kill the kids, which could have got him sent to Azkaban or kissed.

I agree, I don't believe Snape wanted to cause trouble for Dumbledore either.

Snape didn't tell Dumbledore either.


There wasn't time. Dumbledore was otherwise occupied, hosting the Minister for Magic.

The Snape whose actions are harsh and those which have been called nasty are the actions of Snape the spy who I see through Harry's eyes in the books (Harry's filter, I think it's called) and so seeing those actions in that light, I reached a different conclusion. That's all. I respect that others reach a totally different idea of Snape. See, the problem I have with the Harry-filter arguments and interpreting Snape is that it can be used either way. If one simply says you can't trust what you see in his behavior because of that filter, then you really can't trust what you see in his behavior, which also includes what is supposed to be his "redemptive/remorseful" acts, because all of this is also viewed completely via the Harry-filter and if you can never trust what you see with that filter, then how are you supposed to figure him out? *shrugs*

The so-called filter doesn't explain Snape's behavior to me, nor does Harry's dislike cloud how I interpret Snape's actions, nor does it explain Snape's behavior as seen/interpreted via other characters either.

I feel that neither Lupin nor Snape were "irresponsible" during that time that both forgot the significance of that potion. They were both rushing to Harry's aid and I can't fault either of them for this.

For me, to blame the one and not the other - for the same thing - doesn't add up. Snape had already had the unpleasant experience of nearly coming face to face with this same fully transformed werewolf. He absolutely knew the danger, he absolutely knew there was a full moon that night, he absolutely had that potion with him and had every intention for Lupin to consume it. Yet in the blink of an eye every thought and concern regarding this potion and that werewolf were wiped away and IMO replaced with the exact level of worry and fear for Harry that Lupin had experienced. Just as with Lupin, that fear and worry drove all other important thoughts from Snape's mind and he, like Lupin before him, rushed to Harry's defense.

I disagree that Lupin should have sent a Patronus. Not only does Z have a most excellent point that the Headmaster was entertaining Fudge and whomever else was there, but to me, the use of Patronus as a communications aid had yet to be established within the context of the stories. To use it then would have basically violated a basic literary technique called "Chekhov's Gun"."If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."

Chekhov's gun is the literary technique whereby an element is introduced early in the story, but its significance does not become clear until later on. For example, a character may find a mysterious object that eventually becomes crucial to the plot, but at the time the object is found it does not seem to be important.The possibility of using of the Patronus as a communications device was established in Goblet of Fire during The Madness of Crouch; a form of Order communications was mentioned, yet not explained or confirmed in Phoenix; in fact, it isn't until Prince that we see/know for certain that the Order communicates with one another via exchange of their Patronus.

I disagree that Fudge wasn't aware of Lupin's transformation that night or of his actions. Lupin tells us that Dumbledore himself had convinced Fudge that Lupin had been acting in good faith and in Goblet of Fire Fudge tells us point blank "There aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves" which strongly implies that Fudge was in on this appointment from the beginning and dim though he was, could have recognised a full moon and the inability to question the absent teacher because of it. IMO.

Really though, this doesn't touch upon what exactly Severus was supposedly saving students from by letting slip that Remus was a werewolf. We know that school would have been out for holidays before the next full moon rolled around, so there's no risk of exposure there; We know that Remus had already resigned first thing that morning, so there's no risk of further exposure there as well; we know that Snape let his secret slip - only to the Slytherins, mind you - at breakfast the following day; we know that it was Dumbledore's responsibility to address the risks of Remus's lycanthropy, not the teaching faculty of Hogwarts.

So what was Snape saving anyone - strike that - just the Slytherin students who he'd let the secret slip to and not the rest of the student body, from? IMO, he wasn't saving anyone, he was being spiteful.

I respect your view, but I still don't understand why Snape felt Lupin hadn't tried to kill Harry throughout the school year.

I don't think Snape though Lupin was out to kill Harry, I don't think Snape thought Lupin to be a DE; but he did think Lupin was friends enough with Sirius to protect him, I think that's why Snape opposes Lupin at every turn.

And Snape was indeed correct. Lupin did protect Sirius, even after he came into the Gryffindor Common Room. That was when he tries to argue with Dumbledore in the Great Hall; but Dumbledore does not listen to him IMO.

I would respectfully disagree. There is no canon that werewolves were kissed for merely transforming. If there would be sanctions for Lupin being allowed on the grounds and allowed to teach - it would be Dumbledore who would get in trouble. I don't think Snape wished to make trouble for Dumbledore.

Transforming in a School full of students and without the wolfsbane would result in Lupin facing charges of serious negligence IMO.

And if it had come to light through Snape that Lupin transformed and was actually a danger to Harry, Hermione, Ron and Snape himself, I am sure Lupin would have been sentenced to death. That was what Snape saved him from. He never utters a word about Lupin, even when he was furious and raging that Sirius somehow escaped IMO.

Snape had he been the vindictive person, spiteful or had he been using his hatred for personal revenge, then surely this was his chance to get rid of Lupin. Not even Dumbledore would have been able to help Lupin IMO.

But Snape never talks. He only makes sure that Lupin is out of the School by revealing he is a werewolf, so that what happened would not happen again IMO.

Lupin himself says that once the parents know he is a werewolf, then the School would be flooded with owls asking for an explanation.

What would have happened had people known Lupin transformed without a potion and was a great danger to Harry and his friends? Snape saved him from that IMO.

I don't think TGW meant that Lupin would get kissed for merely turning into werewolf. I suspect she meant, Snape could have told Fudge that Lupin aided an escaped convict/suspected murderer and intended to harm/kill the kids, which could have got him sent to Azkaban or kissed.

Yes. :agree: :)

See, the problem I have with the Harry-filter arguments and interpreting Snape is that it can be used either way. If one simply says you can't trust what you see in his behavior because of that filter, then you really can't trust what you see in his behavior, which also includes what is supposed to be his "redemptive/remorseful" acts, because all of this is also viewed completely via the Harry-filter and if you can never trust what you see with that filter, then how are you supposed to figure him out? *shrugs*

I use the Harry filter when Harry is not aware of all the facts. He was not aware until the Final Battle. Once Harry knows the reasons for everything, then his opinions do not come under that. That's how I see it.

For an example, Harry felt betrayed by Dumbledore when he walked to the Forest, towards his death. But that betrayal was based on incorrect information, which changed once Harry became aware of all the facts. He goes on to name his son after Albus.

Once Harry understood that, then the Harry "filter" of the betrayal holds no good. I cannot use canon to say Harry felt betrayed by Dumbledore 19 years later, because Dumbledore led him to his death, even though Harry does feel so in the books. I can of course say that as my opinion. :)

I see Harry's relationship with Snape like that. Until he knows Snape's true motivations, Harry's opinion is liable to be based on what he thinks he knows, rather than what he knows.

Once he knows though the filter won't work. Even after 19 years and after knowing Snape's history had the book said Harry was not impressed; he understood Snape's courage, but hated Snape, then that would be canon, because at that time the Harry filter won't work. Then it's Harry's feelings for Snape after he knows all the facts IMO.

But before he does, it's different, because Harry does not know many, many things IMO.

In the Books, Harry immediately after the memories is comfortable enough to throw that love Snape had at Voldemort; 19 years later, there is nothing to suggest Harry's feelings are what he had for the first 7 years, on the contrary there is evidence to show he look at Snape as he did at James, Lily and Albus IMO.

Really though, this doesn't touch upon what exactly Severus was supposedly saving students from by letting slip that Remus was a werewolf.

Another mistake that could prove costly IMO.

I respect your view, but my interpretation was that Snape's actions did not help the children at all. Lupin had already resigned; Snape knew DADA professors all left after one year; Lupin found it impossible to find work after the universal exposure and Voldemort targeted him and his family for death because he was a werewolf and married Tonks. In my opinion, Snape was responsible for all of that - and I feel Snape understood that. I feel that is what motivated him to attempt to save Lupin in 7 Potters. A botched effort, but he did try.Snape is not responsible for Lupin being "universally exposed" as a werewolf. His clothes were shabby before he started working at Hogwarts and he himself admitted he had trouble finding employment because he was a werewolf. As such it must have been pretty well known that Lupin was a werewolf before he worked at Hogwarts because otherwise he would have been able to find adequate employment and would be prospering. But the canon is that Lupin both had trouble finding employment and was not prospering prior to working at Hogwarts and Snape most certainly cannot be held responsible for this. Therefore I do not see why Snape should be held responsible for Lupin being in the same situation after he left Hogwarts as a teacher.
There is no canon that Snape telling the Slytherins had any repurcussions other than those that effected his employment at Hogwarts. Snape is certainly not responsible for Voldemort knowing that Lupin was a werewolf - all the werewolves knew that Lupin was a werewolf as he was associating with them as a spy for the order, and as Fenrir Greyback was working for Voldemort I think he is most likely the individual that gave this information to Voldemort.

I also think it is grossly unfair to blame Snape for Lupin not taking his potion. It is Lupin's responsibility first and foremost. Snape actually says "You hadn't taken your potion this evening so I thought I would bring you along a gobletfull" (paraphrased) which is why he was in Lupin's office in the first place.

I use the Harry filter when Harry is not aware of all the facts. He was not aware until the Final Battle. Once Harry knows the reasons for everything, then his opinions do not come under that. That's how I see it.I respect this, but I sincerely and wholeheartedly disagree.

For an example, Harry felt betrayed by Dumbledore when he walked to the Forest, towards his death. But that betrayal was based on incorrect information, which changed once Harry became aware of all the facts. He goes on to name his son after Albus.

Once Harry understood that, then the Harry "filter" of the betrayal holds no good.It was not "incorrect information" though, it was entirely correct information. Snape was horrified by the realization. That emotion was genuine to me.

Harry was betrayed and set up for death by one Albus Dumbledore, Snape was complicit in this set up - after the fact. After Harry died he still felt betrayed, yet he not only forgave Dumbledore for it he defended the man against himself. Yes, the new information helped him to understand better, but understanding does not to me equate absolute and total forgiveness. So this act of forgiveness to me isn't the Harry-filter being taken away at all, it's Harry's ability to forgive, in spite of what has occurred.

As for naming his children, I see no special significance to it regarding the Harry-filter and everything to do with Harry's unique ability to forgive the most atrocious behavior and actions.

I also feel that the Harry-filter argument does zero to address the behavior that Snape exhibits towards his fellow staff, the rest of the Hogwarts student body, or his fellow Order members.
I see Harry's relationship with Snape like that. Until he knows Snape's true motivations, Harry's opinion is liable to be based on what he thinks he knows, rather than what he knows. I totally disagree. Harry's opinion and actions are based not solely on what he "thinks" he knows, but also upon the words and actions of the person saying/doing the behavior, irrespective of whether it's Snape or someone else. Yet the only time I've seen "Harry-filter" employed is in discussing interpretation of Snape. One would think this would be a fairly effective argument with all the HP characters - {like James/Sirius/Lupin/Ron --- I can just see new lines of debate opening up}, instead of seemingly just the one? Not that this is the fault of any one particular debater, just a curious observation. :lol:

For instance, Hagrid the half-giant. Harry knows he's a half-giant, he knows that giants are feared. Yet, he forgives Hagrid for keeping the secret and completely supports him - new and alarming information and possible future dangers, didn't alter his opinion. Same for Lupin. Same for Dumbledore. IMO, the same for Draco, Lucius, Fudge, Scrimgeor, Pettigrew, Voldemort...and the same for Snape. The info brings new understanding - the forgiveness, the willingness to sacrifice himself, however, is entirely up to Harry.

Harry, to me, never forgets Snape's treatment or past acts, he simply "forgives" them and let's it go. So to me, it's not as though Harry's unable to comprehend what he's seeing or fully understand what's going on at the moment or how he's being treated and whether he's been set up or not - he has simply chosen to let it go and forgive.

He's also chosen to honor the bravery and let slide the terrible behavior and actions, IMO, not wipe out the behavior or attempt to explain it all away. That goes towards not just Snape, but towards his father, Sirius, Dumbledore, Ron, Remus, Draco...just to name a few. I really have a hard time seeing other characters, knowing exactly what Harry knows, to be so all forgiving as Harry has done. Which again, speaks to Harry's ability to overlook and forgive, not simple understanding of new information.

Another mistake that could prove costly IMO.:whistle: This avoids the question though, TGW.

"A mistake that could prove costly" ...Ooooookay. :lol: What mistake and how did Snape's slip prevent it?

Once again:

All of the students, not just Slytherins, would have all gone home for summer holidays before the next full moon transformation - and thus real danger - would have occurred.
Remus had already resigned his position first thing that morning.
It was Dumbledore's duty to address the dangers of Lupin's lycanthropy, not Snape's and not any of the other teachers.
The Minister was apparently aware that Dumbledore had employed a werewolf to teach at the school.
Knowing all of the above, what protection exactly was Snape providing at that given point in time? None, as far as we see. What protection did it provide in future? None that we know of. So I'm forced to conclude that his actions were Snape's way of being spiteful, as he apparently had no true reason to let this secret "slip" other than anger.

This takes us back to the Harry-filter argument and again, Snape's actions and behavior that occur minus Harry's interpretation.

As such it must have been pretty well known that Lupin was a werewolf before he worked at Hogwarts because otherwise he would have been able to find adequate employment and would be prospering.If it was so widely well-known, then why - when fear of werewolves is so out of proportion in the wizarding world - why didn't the rest of the parents out there know that Dumbledore had employed a werewolf, why didn't the students already know what Lupin was, and why did it take Severus Snape's slip up to get the owls to start flying in protest?

I think certainly there were a few who knew that Remus was a werewolf. The teaching staff, who could very well have had their own children attending school at that time. Madam Pomfrey, who'd been aware for years. Snape, who'd also been aware for years. The Minister. Very probably the office of Werewolf Registry at the Ministry of Magic.

Yet after all of the above being aware (and some for years apparently), it's not until after the "slip" that Remus is apparently "outed" as a werewolf. So to me, it's entirely reasonable to place the blame for this on Snape's action.
as Fenrir Greyback was working for Voldemort I think he is most likely the individual that gave this information to Voldemort.I'd tend to agree, as it was Fenrir Greyback that had bitten the young Remus and infected him in the first place.
I also think it is grossly unfair to blame Snape for Lupin not taking his potion. It is Lupin's responsibility first and foremost. Snape actually says "You hadn't taken your potion this evening so I thought I would bring you along a gobletfull" (paraphrased) which is why he was in Lupin's office in the first place.I don't see it unfair at all.

If one wishes to blame Lupin for reacting instinctively and rushing to protect, instead of sticking around waiting to swallow the potion, then it must also be said to be highly irresponsible of Snape - who very obviously hadn't forgotten the significance of Lupin taking that potion, as you say, he even took the time to fling that comment in Lupin's face - yet instead, he left the potion behind and darted off to protect Harry. Did he think Lupin no longer required the Potion? Well, no, of course not.

Again, I don't see this as irresponsibility on either of their parts, more a "thoughtlessness", but a natural and immediately instinctive reaction to the realization that Harry Potter was in danger.

You know, judging by Snape's comment to Lupin, one might even supposition that he didn't know that Harry Potter was in danger."Lying on your desk was a certain map. Once glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."At least Lupin had the benefit of seeing Ron and Wormtail being dragged into the passageway, and of Harry/Hermione going in after. But the map doesn't show all the way to the Shack, so Harry/Hermione/Ron/Sirius/Wormtail - were all out of sight by the time Snape picked up and viewed that map.

So if he wasn't rushing to save Harry and he very obviously knew Remus was a werewolf who hadn't taken his dose that evening, what exactly was Snape doing following Remus down that passageway and why'd he leave the much needed potion behind?

There wasn't time. Dumbledore was otherwise occupied, hosting the Minister for Magic.

Well I think they could have interrupted Dumbledore - but I agree with you, neither felt there was time for anything but heading straightway to their goal.

Snape is not responsible for Lupin being "universally exposed" as a werewolf. His clothes were shabby before he started working at Hogwarts and he himself admitted he had trouble finding employment because he was a werewolf. As such it must have been pretty well known that Lupin was a werewolf before he worked at Hogwarts because otherwise he would have been able to find adequate employment and would be prospering.

As you pointed out earlier, if it had been pretty well known, then the students parents - or some of them - would have known. They didn't and that is why Snape's ratting him out would have forced him to leave - if he hadn't already resigned. My impression was that Lupin was fired from so many posts because his employers discovered his lycanthropy (missing every full moon, etc.) He had been a professor and hadn't killed anyone, so apparently he had been successful at teaching in the past. However, with the word out, not only among Slytherin kids - but the whole school found out from the grapevine (as we heard Dean remark). He was never able to find employment after that point.

But the canon is that Lupin both had trouble finding employment and was not prospering prior to working at Hogwarts and Snape most certainly cannot be held responsible for this. Therefore I do not see why Snape should be held responsible for Lupin being in the same situation after he left Hogwarts as a teacher.

For the reason I provided above, imo.

There is no canon that Snape telling the Slytherins had any repurcussions other than those that effected his employment at Hogwarts. Snape is certainly not responsible for Voldemort knowing that Lupin was a werewolf - all the werewolves knew that Lupin was a werewolf as he was associating with them as a spy for the order, and as Fenrir Greyback was working for Voldemort I think he is most likely the individual that gave this information to Voldemort.

The point is, Snape added to the number of Slytherins, many of them with parents who were Death Eaters in the second war, who knew Lupin was a werewolf. Greyback was an outsider and he knew it, so the canon does not support the idea that he divulged everything about his werewolf superiority plans to Voldemort, including the names of those he turned. His plan was to take over - that means take over from Voldemort as well. So I do not feel that he would have divulged the information. There is no canon that Voldemort ever hobnobbed with any of the magical creatures he tried to recruit - he seemed to deal just with the leaders. They were not invited to Death Eater meetings as we saw. Merely called upon to fight and they were not attempting to win Voldemort's favor because they were not even allowed to take the dark mark.

While I feel that Voldemort might have come into the information in a number of ways (including from Snape during the first war) - it is more likely that he was apprised of the information when the marriage took place - and by one of his minions - many Slytherins among them. It was general knowledge by the time Voldy returned. So in my opinion, one way or another, Snape was responsible for spreading the news and eventually it reached Voldemort's ears.


I also think it is grossly unfair to blame Snape for Lupin not taking his potion. It is Lupin's responsibility first and foremost. Snape actually says "You hadn't taken your potion this evening so I thought I would bring you along a gobletfull" (paraphrased) which is why he was in Lupin's office in the first place.

I agree with Kat.

The whole thing is academic, imo. Snape had an entire summer to make the point about Lupin endangering the children - if he wished to make it, which I do not believe he did. The school was out and Lupin would not be transforming again until weeks later when everyone would be gone. Lupin posed no immediate danger to anyone. Also, Snape knew DADA professors did not last over a year. Dumbledore told him that he should not hold Lupin or Sirius blameworthy for anything. Dumbldore had asked Snape not to tell of Lupin's condition (twice). And Lupin had resigned, something Snape could have easily found out about if he'd asked Dumbledore what Lupin planned to do following what had occurred. Snape's ratting Lupin out his behaving in an unnecessary, unprofessional, vindictive and cruel manner without serving any purpose except to broaden the number of individuals who would know Lupin's secret. Would that someone had made that decision for Snape and spread it about that he was pinning with unrequited love for a dead woman, who hadn't given him the time of day. I wonder how he would feel. Even that knowledge would not affect his life as negatively as his divulging Lupin's secret did. It was a very personal and private matter for Lupin, and considering many in society were prejudice and considered werewolves dark creatures, I feel Snape behaved shamefully in divulging the matter. And for the reasons above, canon shows he had no good reason to do so, imo.

I'd just like to say as someone who has several medical conditions that require medication I regard it as my responsibilty to take my medication, and if I forget it is my fault. Period. Similarly I regard it as Lupin's responsibilty to take his potion. If he forgets to take his potion it is his fault. Period.

Greyback was an outsider and he knew it, so the canon does not support the idea that he divulged everything about his werewolf superiority plans to Voldemort, including the names of those he turned. His plan was to take over - that means take over from Voldemort as well. So I do not feel that he would have divulged the information. There is no canon that Voldemort ever hobnobbed with any of the magical creatures he tried to recruit - he seemed to deal just with the leaders. They were not invited to Death Eater meetings as we saw. Merely called upon to fight and they were not attempting to win Voldemort's favor because they were not even allowed to take the dark mark.
Greyback associated with Death Eaters - it was not necessary for the informant to tell Voldemort directly - and I think it quite likely that Greyback would have enjoyed spreading the news that a relative of Bella's was marrying a werewolf. As such I think that is far more likely. As it is there is no canon as to how Voldemort got this information so it is all speculation. That said I still regard Greyback as the most likjely source of the information.

It was a very personal and private matter for Lupin, and considering many in society were prejudice and considered werewolves dark creatures
It was not a personal and private matter as I'm sure all the parents who wrote letters to Dumbledore would agree.
So if he wasn't rushing to save Harry and he very obviously knew Remus was a werewolf who hadn't taken his dose that evening, what exactly was Snape doing following Remus down that passageway and why'd he leave the much needed potion behind?
Well I have always taken it that Snape ran after Lupin to catch him meeting with Black. I think it was only when he reached the shack that he realised that Harry, Ron and Hermione were involved. However I can't say that I view him running to catch Lupin meeting with Black as a bad thing given that he believed that Black was a mass murderer who was out to kill Harry and Lupin had been aiding and abetting him.

Well I have always taken it that Snape ran after Lupin to catch him meeting with Black. I think it was only when he reached the shack that he realised that Harry, Ron and Hermione were involved. However I can't say that I view him running to catch Lupin meeting with Black as a bad thing given that he believed that Black was a mass murderer who was out to kill Harry and Lupin had been aiding and abetting him.I would tend to agree that he was rushing to catch Lupin and Black together. However, why'd he leave this vital potion behind? Here he was, how many years after his near fatal encounter down that same passageway with that same werewolf on a different full moon, and he just ups and leaves that potion without another thought? :shrug:

It was not a personal and private matter as I'm sure all the parents who wrote letters to Dumbledore would agree.


Well yeah. :lol:. Snape saw to that - and of course it was no longer a private matter - altough it remained personal. But Snape divulged the information for no reason at all, imo, as I pointed out above.

I would tend to agree that he was rushing to catch Lupin and Black together. However, why'd he leave this vital potion behind? Here he was, how many years after his near fatal encounter down that same passageway with that same werewolf on a different full moon, and he just ups and leaves that potion without another thought? :shrug:

Well maybe he felt he could get them to the dementors to be kissed before the full moon rose?

:whistle: This avoids the question though, TGW.

"A mistake that could prove costly" ...Ooooookay. :lol: What mistake and how did Snape's slip prevent it?

By making sure Lupin would not have a chance to be near students in Hogwarts for a transformation forgetting his wolfsbane IMO.

I'd just like to say as someone who has several medical conditions that require medication I regard it as my responsibilty to take my medication, and if I forget it is my fault. Period. Similarly I regard it as Lupin's responsibilty to take his potion. If he forgets to take his potion it is his fault. Period.

:agree:

Well I have always taken it that Snape ran after Lupin to catch him meeting with Black. I think it was only when he reached the shack that he realised that Harry, Ron and Hermione were involved. However I can't say that I view him running to catch Lupin meeting with Black as a bad thing given that he believed that Black was a mass murderer who was out to kill Harry and Lupin had been aiding and abetting him.

:agree: If Snape knew Harry and the others were not there as I thought they were, then there is no reason for Snape to take the wolfasbane to Lupin. For he was going to catch Lupin helping Sirius.

@Kat_Suki, I did think Snape saw the 3 students, but I just checked the book and found it as you said. :) Snape saw Lupin going into the shaxck and out of sight and he came running to catch Lupin helping Black and intending to catch them.

But when he came to the base of the whoming willow, he saw Harry's invisibility cloack and he must have understood the danger Harry was in with a DE and a werewolf without his wolfsbane.

At that point, Snape would not have had the time to go back and get the potion; he would have been intent to save Harry and capture Black and Lupin (because he thought Lupin was assisiting a murderer and that is a punishable offence as well IMO).

Snape would have seen no reason to take the wolfsbane to Lupin; Lupin, knowing about what his transformation could do, forgot his wolfsbane and by doing so, made himself a danger to the 3 students and Snape.

Snape could have used this information to really punish Lupin. It is a fact he did not do so, even when he loathed Lupin and even when he thought Lupin was assisting Black.

A vindictive, spiteful and petty minded bully Snape would have done so. This Snape was none of those IMO. On the contrary Snape saved Lupin's life IMO.

Snape could have used this information to really punish Lupin. It is a fact he did not do so, even when he loathed Lupin and even when he thought Lupin was assisting Black. A vindictive, spiteful and petty minded bully Snape would have done so. This Snape was none of those IMO. On the contrary Snape saved Lupin's life IMO.

Respecting your view, but Snape's decision to bind Lupin up, drag him across the grounds like a veritable sack of garbage, and have him kissed by Dementors when there was no offical charge against him (not to mention no trial was had except in Snape's mind) - was all much, much worse, imo. So I would say Snape easily met your criteria and was behaving in a spiteful, petty-minded, bullying and cruel (not to mention unfair and unjust) manner - even before he ratted Lupin out. As I see it, the ratting out was just icing on the cake. Snape, ratted out Lupin when he had promised with all of the professors to keep the information secret - just like Marietta did to the DA, imo. Lupin was still civil to the man after that, which to me was beyond understandable. Snape made the potion, but Lupin was very grateful at the time, and behaving very civilly toward him - calling him Severus, when Snape continued to refer to him (and him alone among the professors) as "Lupin". He gave Lupin no quarter whatsoever, imo, accusing him of helping Sirius without any basis except an old friendship which reasonably would have ended when Sirius became a Death Eater and helped murder their friends. Snape's making the potion simply doesn't make up for his behavior, imo, and I'd of preferred to see Lupin treat Snape in kind after POA. But JKR instilled him with a much more forgiving nature than I can claim to have. :lol:.

I don't understand how you figure that Snape could get Lupin in trouble. Could you explain in detail? What could he possibly tell the Ministry?

He threatened to have Lupin kissed IMO. If he really wanted to have Lupin kissed, his chance was the next day. He had the upper hand and he could have had Lupin kissed as he threated to in the shack, by simply letting off more information to the Slytherins or Fudge. Snape did not do that. He did save Lupin's life IMO and spiteful, vindictive bullies don't do that.

He bound Lupin because Lupin at that time was assisiting Sirius who was a DE. Naturally he would not treat Sirius or Lupin who Snape suspected to be assisting Sirius kindly IMO.

On the contrary, it was Snape who was levitated and banged about everywhere for no fault of his; for trying to help the 3 students and catch Sirius and Lupin IMO.

He threatened to have Lupin kissed IMO. If he really wanted to have Lupin kissed, his chance was the next day. He had the upper hand and he could have had Lupin kissed as he threated to in the shack, by simply letting off more information to the Slytherins or Fudge.

What "more information" are you referring to? Snape told Fudge Lupin was a werewolf.

That Lupin transformed without the wolfsbane in Hogwarts full of students the night before IMO.

That Lupin transformed without the wolfsbane in Hogwarts full of students the night before IMO.

How would that get Lupin in trouble? He'd been at the school the whole year transforming around children. Normally, werewolves don't have wolfsbane or work. Why would Snape rat himself out and admit to having made potion for the whole year and helping to keep Lupin's werewolf status secret from all of the parents and students? (Ratting out Dumbledore and the other professors at the same time)

How would that get Lupin in trouble?

Well I thought Lupin in Hogwarts without the wolfsbane and transforming into a werewolf would get him into trouble. Lupin says parents would start owling Dumbledore about Lupin, once the students wrote home about a werewolf teaching in Hogwarts. So to that extent Dumbledore would already be answerable. But I do think had Snape told his students that Lupin could also be careless by forgetting to take the wolfsbane and transforming in the School and endangering the students, there would be other consequences for Lupin.

Well I thought Lupin in Hogwarts without the wolfsbane and transforming into a werewolf would get him into trouble. Lupin says parents would start owling Dumbledore about Lupin, once the students wrote home about a werewolf teaching in Hogwarts. So to that extent Dumbledore would already be answerable. But I do think had Snape told his students that Lupin could also be careless by forgetting to take the wolfsbane and transforming in the School and endangering the students, there would be other consequences for Lupin.

Why? I don't understand how Lupin would get in trouble for that. If people hire werewolves, then they can work. There is always a risk. The laws against hiring did not begin until OOTP. Most werewolves did not have potion, so simply forgetting potion could not be a violation. If there was a violation involved, it would be for Dumbledore hiring him - the professors, including Snape, keeping it a secret and Snape making potion to aid in the deception. I don't think it was against the law though - so I don't see how Lupin would possibly get in any trouble from anything that Snape might say. You keep mentioning the wolfsbane, but remember that it was expensive and hard to make - normally, werewolves would not have wolfsbane at all. So it cannot be considered breaking the law not to take it. It was as if it did not exist.

Why? I don't understand how Lupin would get in trouble for that. If people hire werewolves, then they can work. There is always a risk. The laws against hiring did not begin until OOTP. Most werewolves did not have potion, so simply forgetting potion could not be a violation. If there was a violation involved, it would be for Dumbledore hiring him - the professors, including Snape, keeping it a secret and Snape making potion to aid in the deception. I don't think it was against the law though - so I don't see how Lupin would possibly get in any trouble from anything that Snape might say.

I respectfully disagree. I think Lupin would have been greatly punished had it come to light he had transformed without taking the wolfsbane, which I am sure parents would expect the Headmaster to take care of, assuming in the first place they were okay with Lupin teaching their kids. Sure Lupin could try and explain that he was shocked and in a hurry, but seeing the prejudices the WW had against werewolves and the owls Lupin himself expected from the parents for just knowing there was a werewolf teaching in Hogwarts, I somehow don't think the WW would be understanding of a risk they have to bear for hiring Lupin and that transforming in the School and being a danger to the students is something they have to put up with.

Snape's silence ensured Lupin escaping that trial IMO.

You keep mentioning the wolfsbane, but remember that it was expensive and hard to make - normally, werewolves would not have wolfsbane at all. So it cannot be considered breaking the law not to take it. It was as if it did not exist

All the more Lupin's transformation would be seen as dangerous. I don't know if there were laws against hiring werewolves, but I do know Lupin was poorer than the poor and it was only because of his curse, for which he certainly was not responsible. He was a victim not only of the curse but also by the WW whose fears overruled everything. That was why Lupin could not get a job irrespective of laws or not.

Dumbledore would be held responsible for hiring him and if there had been a unsafe transformation, a transformation where Lupin was in a place where the students were not protected from his werewolf side, with or without the wolfsbane, I am sure Lupin would have been punished and probably with death IMO.

Snape had he revealed Lupin had transformed in the School without adequate protection would have sealed Lupin's fate IMO. Snape did not do so.

Why? I don't understand how Lupin would get in trouble for that. If people hire werewolves, then they can work. There is always a risk. The laws against hiring did not begin until OOTP. Most werewolves did not have potion, so simply forgetting potion could not be a violation. If there was a violation involved, it would be for Dumbledore hiring him - the professors, including Snape, keeping it a secret and Snape making potion to aid in the deception. I don't think it was against the law though - so I don't see how Lupin would possibly get in any trouble from anything that Snape might say. You keep mentioning the wolfsbane, but remember that it was expensive and hard to make - normally, werewolves would not have wolfsbane at all. So it cannot be considered breaking the law not to take it. It was as if it did not exist.

Interesting conversation, guys. Just in regards to the laws against hiring werewolves, I thought that Sirius said something like "Umbridge passed a series of anti-werewolf legislation a few years back which makes it very difficult for him to get a job." It may have been two years back, but seeing as this comment was near the beginning of the year, I would think that the laws would have been in place at the end of PoA. However, they may not have been retroactive and so Lupin may not have been affected until he tried to change jobs, I'm sure that you would know a little more about these laws than I, wick.
How would that get Lupin in trouble? He'd been at the school the whole year transforming around children. Normally, werewolves don't have wolfsbane or work. Why would Snape rat himself out and admit to having made potion for the whole year and helping to keep Lupin's werewolf status secret from all of the parents and students? (Ratting out Dumbledore and the other professors at the same time)
I have to agree that it would have been Lupin's responsibility to take the wolfsbane potion, and that he could have gotten in quite a bit of trouble for it. You mention that Snape wouldn't "rat himself out" about concocting the potion in order to keep Lupin's werewolf status a secret. As we see at the end of the book, keeping that a secret was not a top priority for Snape. In my opinion, he concocted the potion on Dumbledore's orders only. Following your boss' orders is no crime, so no blame could be attached to Snape. As for Dumbledore and the rest of the staff, as far as I know, keeping secrets is not a crime either. If employing a werewolf was at the time a crime, then they would have been acting criminally, but if not, as it seems you are assuming, I don't see how it could be viewed as criminal. It might be frowned upon, but it would never be criminal. Furthermore, at the end of the book, Snape effectively does rat out the staff, as he let slip the fact that Lupin was a werewolf, which everyone would know Dumbledore had known all along, so he had no qualms with this.

I respectfully disagree. I think Lupin would have been greatly punished had it come to light he had transformed without taking the wolfsbane, which I am sure parents would expect the Headmaster to take care of, assuming in the first place they were okay with Lupin teaching their kids. Sure Lupin could try and explain that he was shocked and in a hurry, but seeing the prejudices the WW had against werewolves and the owls Lupin himself expected from the parents for just knowing there was a werewolf teaching in Hogwarts, I somehow don't think the WW would be understanding of a risk they have to bear for hiring Lupin and that transforming in the School and being a danger to the students is something they have to put up with.

But Snape did tell the minister this. That is why I don't understand your argument. He told the minister that Harry, Ron and Hermione were fraternizing with the Murderer and the Werewolf - dark creature. And Fudge knew that the werewolf was running off somewhere in the forest. He didn't put out a wanted poster for Lupin. It was obvious he hadn't taken any potion because he had turned into a werewolf - and it was also obvious that he'd done so around the kids because Snape told Fudge.

Thus, I am not sure what you are referring to.

Furthermore, at the end of the book, Snape effectively does rat out the staff, as he let slip the fact that Lupin was a werewolf, which everyone would know Dumbledore had known all along, so he had no qualms with this.

Did you mean Dumbledore would be upset?

Snape let it be known Lupin was a werewolf to his Slytherins; but Snape did not rat out the most important thing which he kept secret. That was the information Lupin transformed in the School, without taking steps to protect his werewolf side against students with or without the wolfsbane. That information had Snape given it would have ensured Lupin got into very serious trouble IMO.

I have to agree that it would have been Lupin's responsibility to take the wolfsbane potion, and that he could have gotten in quite a bit of trouble for it. You mention that Snape wouldn't "rat himself out" about concocting the potion in order to keep Lupin's werewolf status a secret. As we see at the end of the book, keeping that a secret was not a top priority for Snape. In my opinion, he concocted the potion on Dumbledore's orders only. Following your boss' orders is no crime, so no blame could be attached to Snape. As for Dumbledore and the rest of the staff, as far as I know, keeping secrets is not a crime either. If employing a werewolf was at the time a crime, then they would have been acting criminally, but if not, as it seems you are assuming, I don't see how it could be viewed as criminal. It might be frowned upon, but it would never be criminal. Furthermore, at the end of the book, Snape effectively does rat out the staff, as he let slip the fact that Lupin was a werewolf, which everyone would know Dumbledore had known all along, so he had no qualms with this.

I don't think there was anything criminal involved on anyone's part. If there was, Snape could not use the excuse that he was merely following his boss's orders - just like Bella couldn't say she was following Voldy's orders when carrying out criminal activities he asked her to.

So the point is that since no criminal activities were involved, there was nothing to charge Lupin for - hence nothing that Snape could have said to get the Ministry to arrest Lupin. Snape had already told all of the salient facts to the Minister - Lupin was a werewolf, he'd been around the kids, he'd transformed.

Did you mean Dumbledore would be upset?

Snape let it be known Lupin was a werewolf to his Slytherins; but Snape did not rat out the most important thing which he kept secret. That was the information Lupin transformed in the School, without taking steps to protect his werewolf side against students with or without the wolfsbane. That information had Snape given it would have ensured Lupin got into very serious trouble IMO.

I just don't see how... On what charge? Placing people in danger? Then they would have to round up all werewolves in existence, because that is what they did every month. If the issue is "Lupin being around children" then the axe would fall on Dumbledore's head.

But Snape did tell the minister this. That is why I don't understand your argument. He told the minister that Harry, Ron and Hermione were fraternizing with the Murderer and the Werewolf - dark creature. And Fudge knew that the werewolf was running off somewhere in the forest. He didn't put out a wanted poster for Lupin. It was obvious he hadn't taken any potion because he had turned into a werewolf - and it was also obvious that he'd done so around the kids because Snape told Fudge.

Yes; Snape was listing Harry's disobedience for the rules and consorting (the word used in POA) with a werewolf is one of them and the 3 being near to Black to allow him to Confund them into thinking he was innocent was another. But I still maintain Snape does not say the most important part; that the said werewolf was that night in danger of attacking and cursing or killing Harry and his friends. I don't know how Fudge would have taken that. For I don't know what Fudge knew about Lupin and his transformations.

Placing people in danger?

Yes.

If the issue is "Lupin being around children" then the axe would fall on Dumbledore's head.

Yes. Dumbledore would have been removed from office, Lupin would have been more severly punished IMO.

Yes; Snape was listing Harry's disobedience for the rules and consorting (the word used in POA) with a werewolf is one of them and the 3 being near to Black to allow him to Confund them into thinking he was innocent was another. But I still maintain Snape does not say the most important part; that the said werewolf was that night in danger of attacking and cursing or killing Harry and his friends. I don't know how Fudge would have taken that. For I don't know what Fudge knew about Lupin and his transformations.

How could Fudge not know that the kids had been in danger? He knew Lupin had transformed into a werewolf - he was still on the loose. I don't understand what you mean. Snape told the Minister that the werewolf had been assisting Sirius and apparently the Minister didn't believe him or didn't care. As I recall, the Minister thought Snape was crazy, so I don't think he would have paid any attention to anything he said anyway.

Yes. Dumbledore would have been removed from office, Lupin would have been more severly punished IMO.

I would respectfully disagree. Dumbledore was never removed from office and Lupin was never "wanted" by the Ministry - and subsequently it was a well known fact that Lupin was a werewolf and had been teaching at the school the whole year.

How could Fudge not know that the kids had been in danger? He knew Lupin had transformed into a werewolf - he was still on the loose. I don't understand what you mean.

Because Snape did not tell him that. In POA, he merely says consorting with a werewolf, he does not say where and when; for all Fudge knew it could have been during the year, because Snape is not just talking about the last night's events; he also complains about Harry's visits to Hogsmeade, which took place much earlier in the year. Werewolves are also shunned all through the month, not just on the day they transformed. Ron's reaction in the Shack is an example.

I would respectfully disagree. Dumbledore was never removed from office and Lupin was never "wanted" by the Ministry - and subsequently it was a well known fact that Lupin was a werewolf and had been teaching at the school the whole year.

That was because no one knew about Lupin transforming before 3 students and endangering them. Snape did not tell that to anyone. Fudge also did not know Sirius was an animagus who stopped Lupin from attacking and killing or biting the 3 IMO.

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I just read the last few chapters of POA and I foun these 2 things.

1) Hagrid says Snape told all his Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf and that he was loose in the grounds that night.

2) Lupin tells Harry that Dumbeldore managed (the word used in POA) to convince Fudge that Lupin was trying to save their lives.

Which I took to mean Fudge did not know about the transformation in front of the Trio. Had Fudge known that, I wonder if he would have allowed Lupin to walk away and would he have accepted Dumbledore's explanation that Lupin was saving lives? :shrug:

Because Snape did not tell him that. In POA, he merely says consorting with a werewolf, he does not say where and when; for all Fudge knew it could have been during the year, because Snape is not just talking about the last night's events; he also complains about Harry's visits to Hogsmeade, which took place much earlier in the year. Werewolves are also shunned all through the month, not just on the day they transformed. Ron's reaction in the Shack is an example.

Snape was speaking about the trio's activities the night before at the time. He indicated Sirius had confunded them - the Minister wouldn't think he was speaking about incidents that occurred during the year, imo.

That was because no one knew about Lupin transforming before 3 students and endangering them. Snape did not tell that to anyone. Fudge also did not know Sirius was an animagus who stopped Lupin from attacking and killing or biting the 3 IMO.

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I just read the last few chapters of POA and I foun these 2 things.

1) Hagrid says Snape told all his Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf and that he was loose in the grounds that night.

2) Lupin tells Harry that Dumbeldore managed (the word used in POA) to convince Fudge that Lupin was trying to save their lives.

Which I took to mean Fudge did not know about the transformation in front of the Trio. Had Fudge known that, I wonder if he would have allowed Lupin to walk away and would he have accepted Dumbledore's explanation that Lupin was saving lives? :shrug:

Fudge wasn't stupid. He knew Lupin had transformed and he knew that prior to that, he'd been with the children (trying to save them). Hence I do not understand why you feel the man couldn't put 2 and 2 together and come up with the fact that he'd transformed around the children. What else would he reasonably believe? Otherwise, why didn't Lupin continue to try to save the children? Fudge knows that werewolves transform at the full moon. It would make no sense that Snape had to bring them all back to the castle (which the Minister knew because he was going to give him a Merlin for having done so).

Further, as I pointed out, the Minister began to believe that Snape had lost it and accused him of being crazy - so I do not see that Snape was in any position to try to make *more* accusations - those he was already making were not believed by the Minister and he simply figured Snape was nuts.

I would tend to agree that he was rushing to catch Lupin and Black together. However, why'd he leave this vital potion behind? Here he was, how many years after his near fatal encounter down that same passageway with that same werewolf on a different full moon, and he just ups and leaves that potion without another thought? :shrug:

At the time Snape was convinced that Lupin was helping Black, and quite possibly thought Lupin had not taken his potion on purpose. Thus, taking the potion with him would serve no purpose if he thought that Lupin had no intention of taking it.

Writing about the transformation and reading about the time turner, I suddenly got another thought. Snape was enraged that Dumbledore would not believe him and he reminds Dumbeldore about the werewolf incident and then walks away.

Dumbledore does not budge and he tells Harry and Hermione to go back in time to save Sirius. But I am wondering if it was not to save Harry, Hermione and Ron too?

The last memory of Harry is lying on the ground outside the whomping willow and about to have his soul sucked.

Then he sees his patronus coming and saving all of them and then he loses consciousness. Now was that patronus from the Harry who had travelled back in time?

If so, what happened the first time? Did Dumbeldore find all them dead and did he turn the timeturner himself and save them all, before he told Harry and Hermione to go back in time? I find this so confusing. :no:

Perhaps this is for the Dumbledore thread?

Then he sees his patronus coming and saving all of them and then he loses consciousness. Now was that patronus from the Harry who had travelled back in time?

If so, what happened the first time? Did Dumbeldore find all them dead and did he turn the timeturner himself and save them all, before he told Harry and Hermione to go back in time? I find this so confusing. :no:



It becomes a time paradox. Each Harry sees the patronus thinking it was his dad. Then when he travels back in time he realises that he cast the patronus, knowing that gave him the confidence to cast the spell. So, bascially each Harry is seeing his future self and patronus before he loses concciousness. That's how I understand it. Sorry, if that's off topic. :)

It becomes a time paradox. Each Harry sees the patronus thinking it was his dad. Then when he travels back in time he realises that he cast the patronus, knowing that gave him the confidence to cast the spell. So, bascially each Harry is seeing his future self and patronus before he loses concciousness. That's how I understand it. Sorry, if that's off topic. :)

Thanks! :) and yes it is rather off topic. :scared:

To bring it back on topic and a slightly different one from what we've been discussing, I just read "Snape's Grudge" from POA. Harry was about to go to Hogsmeade with Ron through the tunnel behind the one eyed witch. But Snape catches Harry and Neville (Harry had just thrown his bag into the tunnel) and after enquiring what they had been doing there, sends them back to Gryffindor Tower. Harry turns back to see Snape inspecting the One Eyed witch, before he went back to his office, after making sure Harry was in the School. (thinking Harry would go back to Gryffindor Tower)

I wonder if Snape's inspection of the one eyed witch was because he read Harry's surface thoughts about the statue opening and Harry throwing his bag inside. I think he did see Harry's surface thoughts and was probably trying to open the statue and that was why, when Malfoy came to complain that he saw Harry's head in Hogsmeade, Snape was able to put 2 and 2 together quickly.

I wonder if Snape's inspection of the one eyed witch was because he read Harry's surface thoughts about the statue opening and Harry throwing his bag inside. I think he did see Harry's surface thoughts and was probably trying to open the statue and that was why, when Malfoy came to complain that he saw Harry's head in Hogsmeade, Snape was able to put 2 and 2 together quickly.

Could be! Or he could have seen the marauders hanging around near it just before dissapearing a lot when he was a kid and have suspected there was a secret passageway there - seeing Harry there being suspicious could have reminded him about it :)

Or prehapps a bit of both - one reason is rarely enough for Sev after all ;)

Could be! Or he could have seen the marauders hanging around near it just before dissapearing a lot when he was a kid and have suspected there was a secret passageway there - seeing Harry there being suspicious could have reminded him about it :)


I think this is a possiblity. Particularly as it was not long after Black had managed to enter the castle undetected. As you say, kitt, seeing Harry there may have brought back memories of seeing the Marauders hanging around there and roused his suspicions that it might have been how Black had entered the castle.

I hadn't thought of it that way - but it making wonder if that's how Black got into the school, but that's a very good point imo :)

Could be! Or he could have seen the marauders hanging around near it just before dissapearing a lot when he was a kid and have suspected there was a secret passageway there - seeing Harry there being suspicious could have reminded him about it :)

That is very much possible; I never thought of that. :tu: And this could very well be the way Black came into Hogwarts too. :agree:

Or prehapps a bit of both - one reason is rarely enough for Sev after all ;)

LOL! :)

By making sure Lupin would not have a chance to be near students in Hogwarts for a transformation forgetting his wolfsbane IMO.Respecting this, and having several times typed up how exactly none of the students were in danger of future exposure to Lupin as a transformed werewolf at Hogwarts, either at that time then or in the future, I completely disagree.

It was not Snape's job to overstep himself in this manner as it was Albus Dumbledore's duty to address the problem to Remus; nor did Snape have a right to violate Dumbledore's trust and divulge the secret that Dumbledore had obviously asked/ordered all of the teaching staff to keep; according to the canon, Snape didn't even take the time to inform all of the Hogwarts students, just Slytherins, which says to me his actions were not generated out of concern for the safety of the entire student populace at all; there was zero chance that there would be any students at school by the time the next full moon occurred, as they occur ever 29-30 days - the full moon being the only time werewolves transform and are dangerous to humans; beyond that Remus had already resigned the position that very morning, meaning he wasn't even going to stick around until the students went home on the train, much less for the next full moon; and finally, the DADA post had a curse on it, in which no teacher ever remained and taught for more than a single year, and that curse had been in place for approximately 35-40 years (since the mid to late 50s when Voldemort was turned down for that post) according to canon.

Again, based upon all of the above, I'm not sure as to what you form your opinion on - and of course your opinion is your own and we're all entitled to our ideas :) - I was just hoping to see that it had some basis in the canon, beyond Remus simply being a werewolf.

If Snape knew Harry and the others were not there as I thought they were, then there is no reason for Snape to take the wolfasbane to Lupin. For he was going to catch Lupin helping Sirius.Really? The full moon wasn't imminent? Snape and the students of Hogwarts weren't going to be in danger at all? Well, in that case, it wasn't irresponsible of Remus to not wait about for that potion.
@Kat_Suki, I did think Snape saw the 3 students, but I just checked the book and found it as you said. Snape saw Lupin going into the shaxck and out of sight and he came running to catch Lupin helping Black and intending to catch them. Me too, I thought at first it was to rush to Harry's aid {and I'd just got finished rereading the book, too :lol:}.
But when he came to the base of the whoming willow, he saw Harry's invisibility cloack and he must have understood the danger Harry was in with a DE and a werewolf without his wolfsbane.Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. :lol:

Snape didn't know the cloak belonged to Harry. Snape didn't even know Harry had a cloak at all, otherwise he'd have nailed him to the wall over that 'mudding of Malfoy in Hogsmeade' incident. According to canon, Snape would have come into knowledge that the cloak actually belonged to Harry Potter only after he'd lurked in the Shack and overheard Remus's pronouncement on page 354, of: "They sneaked out of the castle every month under James's Invisibility Cloak."By which time Snape would have seen the kids there and realized he was hiding beneath something that belonged to that dratted bully Potter. I wonder what he thought of that?

Snape never forgot that Remus was a werewolf, though, nor did he forget that he'd been taking Remus his potion when he glimpsed him on the map.At that point, Snape would not have had the time to go back and get the potion; he would have been intent to save Harry and capture Black and Lupin (because he thought Lupin was assisiting a murderer and that is a punishable offence as well IMO).I'm not so sure his absolute intent was to save Harry from them, otherwise he had the perfect opportunity to do so and didn't. Why? If you go back and reread, he lurks under that cloak for about six pages, before finally revealing himself. Harry/Ron/Hermione were the only ones armed, Black and Lupin had no wands - and Snape had the drop on them, none of them realized that he was there beneath the cloak. He was perfectly poised to strike, to capture, to kill, and to save the kids. Yet he waited for pages and pages and then reveals himself rather than attack/capture. :hmm:
Snape would have seen no reason to take the wolfsbane to Lupin; Lupin, knowing about what his transformation could do, forgot his wolfsbane and by doing so, made himself a danger to the 3 students and Snape.Once again, I feel you place too much emphasis on the lycanthropy, and little to none IMO regarding his mad dash to save Harry, whom he very much believed to be in danger. Sprang into action without another thought, that's how the canon appears - so "thoughtless" is pretty much the only thing I can agree with. :)

Snape, on the other hand never once forgets the danger - yet he very much leaves that potion behind...and look how Lupin entered the room at the Shack in comparison to Snape, banging in - breathless - making noise - disarming; now compare to Snape's actions. Quite a disparity there, IMO.
Snape could have used this information to really punish Lupin. It is a fact he did not do so, even when he loathed Lupin and even when he thought Lupin was assisting Black. Punish him more than divulging his secret to most of the wizarding world, thus creating much more prejudice for Remus to endure? Have you ever been on the receiving end of social prejudice, cause if so you already know what I know - it ain't no dad-gummed picnic!

Fudge was Minister, he apparently knew that Remus was a werewolf and teaching at Hogwarts {according to Goblet of Fire} and Dumbledore convinced him that Remus's role that night was simply to save the lives of the children.

Now I ask you, why would Dumbledore have to convince Fudge of that, if Snape hadn't already told him of how he caught Remus with Black and the children at the Shack? How would Fudge ever have found out otherwise? Realistically, did Harry/Hermione ever make mention of Remus to Fudge? Nope, not a single instance in canon. Did Dumbledore ever reference Remus in front of Fudge? Nope, never. Did we see Snape reference Remus? Yes, yes we did."Consider Minister --- against all school rules --- after all the precautions put in place for his protection --- out-of-bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a murderer ---
Severus Snape did it, in the Hall, with a few well chosen words! Yet despite Snape's informing the Minister, there was zero punishment forthcoming from the Minister or the Ministry for Remus, thanks to Dumbledore who convinced Cornelius that Remus had honestly and sincerely been trying to help.

A vindictive, spiteful and petty minded bully Snape would have done so.And did do so, IMO. There was zero justification - when looking at the info provided by the canon - that Snape had in divulging that Remus Lupin was a werewolf.

Respecting this, and having several times typed up how exactly none of the students were in danger of future exposure to Lupin as a transformed werewolf at Hogwarts, either at that time then or in the future,


“No. professor Dumbledore managed to convinceFudge that I was trying to save your lives.” He sighed. “That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he – er – accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning over breakfast.”
“Your not leaving over that!” said Harry.
Lupin smiled wryly.
“This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents – they will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry. And after last night, I can see their point. I could have bitten any of you… that must never happen again.” Bold mine

What ever you or I may think – Lupin seems to think there is a possibility of him being a danger to pupils if he stays. :)

The other reason I used this quote is that to me it indicates that Lupin resigned after Severus ‘let slip’ that he was a werewolf not before – just how I interpret it although I fully acknowldge that the conno evidence could be interpreted another way; either way there is not conclusive that this happend in the order you seem to state. :)

Once again, I feel you place too much emphasis on the lycanthropy, and little to none IMO regarding his mad dash to save Harry, whom he very much believed to be in danger. Sprang into action without another thought, that's how the canon appears - so "thoughtless" is pretty much the only thing I can agree with. :)

Snape, on the other hand never once forgets the danger - yet he very much leaves that potion behind...

To quote you - that assumes facts not in evidence.

Where do you find evidence of Sev’s full thought process on finding Lupin running down the passage way and out of sight?

It seems as possible to me that on seeing this on the map he realised that Black was also there, as he had believed Lupin to be aiding him for some time, and the thought of being able to catch Black & prove his theory about Lupin pushed all others out of him mind as he dashed out of the office door. That seems to be just as likely as the scenario you paint for Lupin’s leaving without taking his potion.

I would tend to agree that he was rushing to catch Lupin and Black together. However, why'd he leave this vital potion behind? Here he was, how many years after his near fatal encounter down that same passageway with that same werewolf on a different full moon, and he just ups and leaves that potion without another thought? :shrug:

He did not leave it without another thought. He, unlike everyone else in the Shack, remembered that Lupin was a werewolf about to transform. He, alone of everyone there, attempted to take other precautions. Just leaving Lupin there, for example, would have been adequate. It was the protection that school had used, when Lupin was a student and the potion was not available.

I think he left it, because he could move faster and more freely, and could fight, if he did not have to worry about spilling it.

It was not Snape's job to overstep himself in this manner as it was Albus Dumbledore's duty to address the problem to Remus; nor did Snape have a right to violate Dumbledore's trust and divulge the secret that Dumbledore had obviously asked/ordered all of the teaching staff to keep;

As head of house it was, I would have thought, his duty to ensure the safety of Slytherin students. Added to which he had warned Dumbledore for some considerable time that Lupin was aiding Black and Dumbledore had not listened, Dumbledore continued to ignore these warning even after Severus was proved correct. If a he continually refused to ensure the safety of students, as I think Severus saw it, then I would say he had reason to take matters into his own hands as long as he did not break the law.

according to the canon, Snape didn't even take the time to inform all of the Hogwarts students, just Slytherins, which says to me his actions were not generated out of concern for the safety of the entire student populace at all;

Well Hagrid assumed every student would know about it very soon afterwards – so why shouldn’t Severus make the same assumption; it does seem to be the way things happen at Hogwarts. :)

the DADA post had a curse on it, in which no teacher ever remained and taught for more than a single year, and that curse had been in place for approximately 35-40 years (since the mid to late 50s when Voldemort was turned down for that post) according to canon.

The curse did exist – but nothing had happened at the point Severus let slip Lupins being a werewolf to force the DADA teacher out of the job. In fact it can be argued, and I have done so in the past, that the curse influenced events so that Severus would speak out. :)

“No. professor Dumbledore managed to convinceFudge that I was trying to save your lives.” He sighed. “That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he – er – accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning over breakfast.”
“Your not leaving over that!” said Harry.
Lupin smiled wryly.
“This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents – they will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry. And after last night, I can see their point. I could have bitten any of you… that must never happen again.” Bold mine

What ever you or I may think – Lupin seems to think there is a possibility of him being a danger to pupils if he stays. :)If he'd remained at Hogwarts and transformed - which he knew for a fact that he wasn't. So that's fairly moot, IMO.

However, he makes it clear as well that he's running before the owls start flying, before he can be reviled IMO, not punished as in legally. None of those parents would have known - with the exception of the Slytherins - that he'd possibly even been a danger. Then too, he was running from Dumbledore, IMO, and possible censure of what he'd say regarding to the years in which Remus felt he'd violated his trust, and for keeping secrets.

Even if Snape hadn't let it slip, Remus was resigning and running. Yet it was not Snape's place to let the secret slip. It wasn't his job, it wasn't his responsibility, and given the canon facts, there is zero reason for him to have done so. IMO.

The other reason I used this quote is that to me it indicates that Lupin resigned after Severus ‘let slip’ that he was a werewolf not before – just how I interpret it although I fully acknowldge that the conno evidence could be interpreted another way; either way there is not conclusive that this happend in the order you seem to state. :)Well, first thing that morning to me does signify before breakfast - which is the time that Snape had let slip - and yet again, it was not his job or responsibility to do so, nor did he do so to protect the student populace, otherwise he'd have told everyone and not just the Slytherins. IMO.

So all I'm asking is what real justification Snape - at that exact moment in time - had in doing this? To me there is none, therefore, his reason for having done such a thing, to me, is motivated purely out of spite.
To quote you - that assumes facts not in evidence. Ah, but it doesn't because we see him confront Lupin and toss the comment about his potion in his face in the Shack.I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did...lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."This shows, that despite his seeing the map, he has clear recall of the importance of that potion. Yet he left it behind.

From what we see in canon, all he saw was Remus going down an old passageway that led off grounds. No sighting of Harry or Sirius or anyone else. Just Lupin.
Where do you find evidence of Sev’s full thought process on finding Lupin running down the passage way and out of sight?Where do we see him "rushing to Harry's aid"? To capture "Black" who wasn't on the map?

No, he decided to follow the werewolf and see what he was up to, very much in the way he used to prowl about spying on the Marauders trying to see what they'd been up to and if he could get them in trouble. Don't get me wrong, he'd already expressed his doubts to Dumbledore as to Remus's reliability. I'm not discounting that.

Yet he was following the same werewolf he'd been making this potion for all year. Taking the potion to the werewolf on the day of the full moon, as I assume he'd done for the six days prior to the full moon {somewhere it says that Lupin had to take the potion for the week in advance of the full moon}. Taking the potion to the very same werewolf that could have killed him years ago. Walking down the very same passageway that the horrible "prank" took place.

It seems as possible to me that on seeing this on the map he realised that Black was also there, as he had believed Lupin to be aiding him for some time, and the thought of being able to catch Black & prove his theory about Lupin pushed all others out of him mind as he dashed out of the office door. That seems to be just as likely as the scenario you paint for Lupin’s leaving without taking his potion.While I agree, it is possible - frankly highly probable - that he suspected Remus was going off to meet Black and hoped to capture them both, however it in no way - from what we see in canon text - wiped the knowledge of Remus as a werewolf and his need for that potion, otherwise why fling the comment at Remus in the Shack? Surely, if Snape'd forgotten it's significance he'd not have mentioned it at all? But mention it he did! :lol:

So to me, he never forgot.

He did not leave it without another thought. He, unlike everyone else in the Shack, remembered that Lupin was a werewolf about to transform. He, alone of everyone there, attempted to take other precautions. Just leaving Lupin there, for example, would have been adequate. It was the protection that school had used, when Lupin was a student and the potion was not available.

I think he left it, because he could move faster and more freely, and could fight, if he did not have to worry about spilling it. I agree with you zgirnius, Snape didn't leave the potion without another thought, he never forgot - he had that awful prank burned into his memory - that Remus was a werewolf and could be terribly dangerous on the full moon.

I agree too, that it is more than likely that he could move more swiftly without a goblet of potion sloshing about! Anyone who's walked with a cup of coffee knows how easy it is to spill just taking careful steps, let alone dashing the equivalent of out of the house and down the road. :lol:

I also believe that, since there's no evidence at the time Harry was involved, Snape didn't "rush" in and bang about, letting his quarry know he was closing in on them. Which is why IMO his entrance was so different in comparison to Remus's. Remus rushed to save, Snape rushed, then careful got into position in order to capture. That's when he realized that Harry and the others were involved.

I'd have to go back and reread - again - to try and figure out the positioning of everyone in the room, but as near as I can recall, I believe that Black was in one spot, Harry another, Ron & Hermione another, and Remus still another. This would explain, as well, why Snape didn't just act to hex...until he'd determined the men were unarmed IMO. I also believe he lurked so long under the cloak in an attempt to gather as much information as he could, so that he could report to Dumbledore.

I don't see any of the above scenarios as unreasonable or unlikely. I simply disagree that Remus was irresponsible in missing his dose of potion that evening when we know that he was rushing to save Harry. I also disagree, though I'd commented upon the idea, that Snape was irresponsible for Remus not getting that potion either. To me, they were both, each for their own reasons, caught up in the moment of discovery/action.

I also believe that, since there's no evidence at the time Harry was involved, Snape didn't "rush" in and bang about, letting his quarry know he was closing in on them. Which is why IMO his entrance was so different in comparison to Remus's. Remus rushed to save, Snape rushed, then careful got into position in order to capture. That's when he realized that Harry and the others were involved.

I disagree slightly with this timeline of events. Here's how I see it.

-Snape shows up at the office of Lupin with the goblet of potion, and Lupin is not there.
-He enters and looks at the desk, perhaps seeking clues as to where Lupin might be found. (Did he just step out to the loo? Or should Snape look for him in another part of the castle, e. g.?)
-He sees the Map open, to a section that shows the tunnel under the Willow, sees Lupin's name moving in it, understands its functino, and concludes Lupin is probably off to a nice visit with the "nefarious" Black.
-He rushes out to the Willow, leaving the potion behind. If he is right, he may have to fight Lupin, and Lupin is certainly not going to be drinking anything Snape gives him. If he is wrong, surely Lupin will stay in the Shack for everyone's safety! I do not know whether he planned to enter the Willow at this point. Once he was in place watching the only exit...he might have considered waiting to surprise his adversaries as they emerged, or sending for help, or what have you, I don't think we can really say.
-He arrives at the Willow and finds the cloak. This changes everything. Harry is inside, and may have been taken there against his will.
-He puts on the cloak and runs down the passage quickly and silently. (I have some text evidence he ran. He is still slightly breathless, when he reveals himself, which is some time after he has arrived, signalled by the creaky door).
-Once he arrives, though, he can see that Harry is not in immediate physical danger. Rather, it appears that the conspirators are for some reason trying to hoodwink Harry rather than just kill him outright. Snape stops to listen in order to understand what it is they plan.
-Being in possession of a good sense of dramatic timing, he emerges when Lupin feeds him a nice entry line. :D

I don't see any of the above scenarios as unreasonable or unlikely. I simply disagree that Remus was irresponsible in missing his dose of potion that evening when we know that he was rushing to save Harry.

I will answer on the Remus thread, where it is on topic.

Respecting your view, but Snape's decision to bind Lupin up, drag him across the grounds like a veritable sack of garbage, and have him kissed by Dementors when there was no offical charge against him (not to mention no trial was had except in Snape's mind) - was all much, much worse, imo.
Let's have a quote shall we:

'Up to the castle?' said Snape silkily. "I don't think we need to go that far. All I have to do is call the Dementors once we get out of the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black ... pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay .."
What little colour there was in Black's face left it.
"You - you've got to hear me out," he croaked. "The rat - look at the rat -"
But there was a mad glint in Snape's eye that Harry had never seen before. He seemed beyond reason.
"Come on all of you," he said. He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin flew to his hands. "I'll drag the werewolf. Perhaps the Dementors will have a kiss for him, too - "

From this I would say that Snape's words hardly even constitute an idle threat yet alone a statement of intent. They certainly do not indicate that he has decided to have Lupin kissed. Nor does he liken Lupin to a sack of garbage. Snape's actions on regaining consciousness show us what his true intentions were. If he really intended to have Black kissed he would have done so then. As for him having the Dementors kiss Lupin - it was bearly even a threat!
It is also interesting to note that ultimately it was Severus who was dragged along like a "sack of garbage" - but then that is how Sirius had always treated him.

I think he left it, because he could move faster and more freely, and could fight, if he did not have to worry about spilling it. :agree: And as Snape did not know that Harry and co were involved until he reached the shack, I think he would have seen it as an opportunity to catch Lupin meeting Black, be proved right about Lupin, re-capture Black and be recognised as an all round hero, while at the same time avenging some of his mistreatment by the marauders. Very neat! :relax:

-He arrives at the Willow and finds the cloak. This changes everything. Harry is inside, and may have been taken there against his will. I was with you up to this point, Z.

In canon, and I've checked, there is at no time that Snape is shown to be aware the Cloak belongs to Harry. Which means, at the point he found the Cloak, he couldn't assume anything in regards to its owner.

When did he discover that Harry was the owner of the Cloak? The only time that he could point to Harry possibly being the owner of the Cloak is by Snape's putting clues together after he had entered the Shack under the same Cloak, the door creaks open and Ron says the place is haunted - this is Snape under the Cloak, and Lupin gives his explanation about his time at Hogwarts. It is during that explanation that Snape overhears Lupin's comment of "They sneaked out of the castle every month under James's Invisibility Cloak."

Timeline:
Harry's head was in Hogsmeade, no other part of his body is seen and there's no explanation as to this odd occurrance.
A cloak is found lying about on the castle grounds.
Snape picks it up and uses it.
He enters the passageway and goes into the Shack, where he finds not just Lupin/Black - but Harry too.
He overhears Lupin explain how James and Sirius managed to sneak out of school - to the Shack - under James Potter's Invisibility Cloak.
Wheels turn, puzzle pieces slide into place, and Snape comes to the correct conclusion: Cloak belongs to Harry, that's how his head sans body was in Hogsmeade, that's how Harry manages to get about without being caught - just as his father had done before him, and that explains why it was outside on the ground in front of the Whomping Willow, Potter must have left it there.
There's no canon that I've found that shows Severus Snape, at the time he found the Cloak, knew or even suspected that it belonged to Harry Potter.

Which alters the equation, IMO, and why Snape acted as he did. ;)

Snape would know Harry owns an invisibility cloak, because he knows Harry's head, and JUST his head, was seen in Hogsmeade by Draco Malfoy. :)

Sorry, that's not cutting it. :lol:

Snape didn't know, because if he had known absolutely positively that Harry owned a cloak, he'd have thrown a wall-eyed tizzy about it when he was questioning Harry. IMO.

Again, I do believe he put the pieces together after the fact, but there is no canon that shows he had done so prior to overhearing Lupin's telling about James's Cloak.

There may be no cannon provoing exactly when Severus found out that Harry owned a invisability cloak - but there are times, such as but not limited to the one Zara outlined, where he could very reasonable have deduced it or been told out right.

You are of course free to you own opinion on the matter - but it is opinion not fact :)

Snape would know Harry owns an invisibility cloak, because he knows Harry's head, and JUST his head, was seen in Hogsmeade by Draco Malfoy. :)

I think it is very likely that Snape came to the conclusion that Harry owned an invisibility cloak after this incident. It would be the most obvious conclusion to arrive at and explain how Malfoy saw only Harry's head in Hogsmeade.

:shrug: Is there canon to definitively show Snape absolutely "knew" the Cloak belonged to one Harry Potter at the time he found it as this comment appears to suggest "He arrives at the Willow and finds the cloak. This changes everything. Harry is inside, and may have been taken there against his will."??? Not that we see.

Is there canon to suggest Snape could piece together the clues? Sure, absolutely! :lol:

However, again the phrasing was "Snape would know Harry owns an invisibility cloak, because he knows Harry's head, and JUST his head, was seen in Hogsmeade by Draco Malfoy.", which again appears as a definitive "yes" and not "possibly".

I'm sorry if I've somehow misread the comments, but that is how they appear to me and so I simply responded with my opinion. :)



I think it is very likely that Snape came to the conclusion that Harry owned an invisibility cloak after this incident. It would be the most obvious conclusion to arrive at and explain how Malfoy saw only Harry's head in Hogsmeade.I can respect the idea, however to me, simply seeing a Cloak lying upon the ground many months after this one incident does not automatically equate to "This is Harry, he's in danger!" :lol:

Sorry, that's not cutting it. :lol:

Snape didn't know, because if he had known absolutely positively that Harry owned a cloak, he'd have thrown a wall-eyed tizzy about it when he was questioning Harry. IMO.

For my purposes, it suffices that he strongly suspected it during, or immediately after, the discussion with Harry in his office. Finding one such rare item discarded next to the Willow would be reason enough to make the connection. If it was Lupin's or Black's, why would they carelessly discard it? But if Harry was taken in a struggle, such a circumstance would make sense. Thinking of Harry would make perfect sense in the context, both because protecting Harry is Snape's own private mission at this point, and because everyone thinks Sirius is out to kill Harry.

Anyway, here is the scene:

"Mr. Malfoy has just been to see me with a strange story, Potter," said Snape.

Harry didn't say anything.

"He tells me that he was up by the Shrieking Shack when he ran into Weasley -- apparently alone."

Still, Harry didn't speak.

"Mr. Malfoy states that he was standing talking to Weasley, when a large amount of mud hit him in the back of the head. How do you think that could have happened?"


I interrupt to point out that Malfoy shared the encounter with Snape in full detail. Not just a glimpse of Harry's head, but the whole thing - mud being flung from seemingly nowhere, and all. Snape is among those few who know that the Shrieking Shack is not haunted.

Resuming where I left off:

Harry tried to look mildly surprised.

"I don't know, Professor."

Snape's eyes were boring into Harry's. It was exactly like trying to stare down a hippogriff. Harry tried hard not to blink.

Interrupting for more commentary...Oh, yes, Harry. Just the thing to do when your teacher is trying to confirm his suspicion in your mind, stare right back at him. Eye contact is usually necessary for Legilimency. :D

Resuming where I left off...

"Mr. Malfoy then saw an extraordinary apparition. Can you imagine what it might have been, Potter?"

"No," said Harry, now trying to sound innocently curious.

"It was your head, Potter. Floating in midair."

There was a long silence.

"Maybe he'd better go to Madam Pomfrey," said Harry. "If he's seeing things like --"

"What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter?" said Snape softly. "Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade."

"I know that," said Harry, striving to keep his face free of guilt or fear. "It sounds like Malfoy's having hallucin --"

"Malfoy is not having hallucinations," snarled Snape, and he bent down, a hand on each arm of Harry's chair, so that their faces were a foot apart. "If your head was in Hogsmeade, so was the rest of you."

So, Snape asserts a definite conviction that Harry's invisible body was present in Hogsmeade at the time, not just Harry's head. There follows a discussion of James, which seems not relevant to me, and then we get to:

"Turn out your pockets, Potter!" he spat suddenly.

Harry didn't move. There was a pounding in his ears.

"Turn out your pockets, or we go straight to the headmaster! Pull them out, Potter!"

Cold with dread, Harry slowly pulled out the bag of Zonko's tricks and the Marauder's Map.

Snap picked up the Zonko's bag.

"Ron gave them to me," said Harry, praying he'd get a chance to tip Ron off before Snape saw him. "He -brought them back from Hogsmeade last time --"

"Indeed? And you've been carrying them around ever since? How very touching... and what is this?"

Snape had picked up the map. Harry tried with all his might to keep his face impassive.

"Spare bit of parchment," he said with a shrug.

Snape turned it over, his eyes on Harry.

"Surely you don't need such a very old piece of parchment?" he said. "Why don't I just -- throw this away?"

His hand moved toward the fire.

"No!" Harry said quickly.

"So!" said Snape, his long nostrils quivering. "Is this another treasured gift from Mr. Weasley? Or is it -- something else? A letter, perhaps, written in invisible ink? Or -- instructions to get into Hogsmeade without passing the dementors?"

Harry blinked. Snape's eyes gleamed.


This move might have been intended to turn up the Cloak (which Harry hid in the secret passage). What it does turn up is the Map, which Snape correctly guesses is not a means to turn invisible. In my opinoin, it is the answer to Snape's other question. Evenm if he has figured out how Harry can be invisible, as I suggest, that would not fool the Dementors. We know Snape knows this, not only because he is an expert at DADA, but also because Snape was present when Albus made the following speech at the Welcoming Feast:

Dumbledore cleared his throat and continued, "As you will all be aware after their search of the Hogwarts Express, our school is presently playing host to some of the dementors of Azkaban, who are here on Ministry of Magic business."

He paused, and Harry remembered what Mr. Weasley had said about Dumbledore not being happy with the dementors guarding the school.

"They are stationed at every entrance to the grounds," Dumbledore continued, "and while they are with us, I must make it plain that nobody is to leave school without permission. Dementors are not to be fooled by tricks or disguises -- or even Invisibility Cloaks," he added blandly, and Harry and Ron glanced at each other.

So it seems to me Snape does not investigate invisibility further, because he is satisfoed he knows the answer, and it is now the other mystery that he is concerned with.

If you think he did not guess it, you are suggesting something I find even less likely - that Snape would let the invisibility part of the mystery go without finding an answer.

If you think he did not guess it, you are suggesting something I find even less likely - that Snape would let the invisibility part of the mystery go without finding an answer.I certainly respect your opinion. :)

However, to me, if Snape knew - without a doubt - that Harry was in the possession of a Cloak and it had helped get him around all of the many and varied precautions that were set in place to protect Harry - yet Snape just simply let Harry walk away without another word, without confiscating it for Harry's own good, without detention, without punishment, without comment to Dumbledore - it's this that I find just so incredibly unlikely, especially knowing how desparately that Snape was trying to keep Harry safe, in honor of Lily.

This is why I do not believe that Snape knew the Cloak belonged to Harry, until after the fact.

:hmm: I will say, however, that there is another incident in which Snape could possibly have to weigh in his suspicions on, even if it occurs so terribly far back. The Hogwarts feast and Dumbledore's speech, where he specifically says:

"Dementors are not to be fooled by tricks or disguises --- or even Invisivility Cloaks," he added blandly, and Harry and Ron glanced at each other.

However, to me, if Snape knew - without a doubt - that Harry was in the possession of a Cloak and it had helped get him around all of the many and varied precautions that were set in place to protect Harry - yet Snape just simply let Harry walk away without another word, without confiscating it for Harry's own good, without detention, without punishment, without comment to Dumbledore - it's this that I find just so incredibly unlikely, especially knowing how desparately that Snape was trying to keep Harry safe, in honor of Lily.

Snape knows a Cloak alone could not get Harry around all the precautions. The quote from Albus's speech that we both cited specifically states Dementors are not fooled by invisibility cloaks and disguises (which presumably covers other possible magical ways to be invisible, or partly so).

We even see that Snape wonders how Harry did get around the Dementors, because he speculates the "parchment" (Marauders Map) he finds in Harry's pockets is a means to do just that. This he does confiscate, though apparently without telling Albus. Is he giving Lupin enough rope to hang himself, there? Giving Lupin a chance? Is it just that he's been harping about his Lupin suspicions for half of a year and Albus has told him to put up and shut up? This would explain also why he does not raise a stink about an Invisibility Cloak even if he suspects one.

Also, I do agree he does not "know" it in the sense of it being a fact he is fully capable of demonstrating to others, such as Albus or Minerva. Note that he believes, I am sure, that Harry was in Hogsmeade. (I would say, he knows Harry was in Hogsemade). At least, he says so, and why would he lie? That alone is plenty of reason for Harry to be in detention, etc. So why does Snape not pursue it? It seems to me this is for the same reason he does not pursue the Cloak. He was not personally present to see Harry. The evidence would be the conflicting testimony of Harry and Draco and their friends (Crabbe and Goyle presumably backed Draco, but we know also that Ron lied for Harry in that same scene), and his knowledge of both. This is the very same evidence on which I think he knows about the cloak.

For my purposes, it suffices that he strongly suspected it during, or immediately after, the discussion with Harry in his office. Finding one such rare item discarded next to the Willow would be reason enough to make the connection. If it was Lupin's or Black's, why would they carelessly discard it? But if Harry was taken in a struggle, such a circumstance would make sense. Thinking of Harry would make perfect sense in the context, both because protecting Harry is Snape's own private mission at this point, and because everyone thinks Sirius is out to kill Harry.

Anyway, here is the scene:

"Mr. Malfoy has just been to see me with a strange story, Potter," said Snape.

Harry didn't say anything.

"He tells me that he was up by the Shrieking Shack when he ran into Weasley -- apparently alone."

Still, Harry didn't speak.

"Mr. Malfoy states that he was standing talking to Weasley, when a large amount of mud hit him in the back of the head. How do you think that could have happened?"


I interrupt to point out that Malfoy shared the encounter with Snape in full detail. Not just a glimpse of Harry's head, but the whole thing - mud being flung from seemingly nowhere, and all. Snape is among those few who know that the Shrieking Shack is not haunted.

Resuming where I left off:

Harry tried to look mildly surprised.

"I don't know, Professor."

Snape's eyes were boring into Harry's. It was exactly like trying to stare down a hippogriff. Harry tried hard not to blink.

Interrupting for more commentary...Oh, yes, Harry. Just the thing to do when your teacher is trying to confirm his suspicion in your mind, stare right back at him. Eye contact is usually necessary for Legilimency. :D

Resuming where I left off...

"Mr. Malfoy then saw an extraordinary apparition. Can you imagine what it might have been, Potter?"

"No," said Harry, now trying to sound innocently curious.

"It was your head, Potter. Floating in midair."

There was a long silence.

"Maybe he'd better go to Madam Pomfrey," said Harry. "If he's seeing things like --"

"What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter?" said Snape softly. "Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade."

"I know that," said Harry, striving to keep his face free of guilt or fear. "It sounds like Malfoy's having hallucin --"

"Malfoy is not having hallucinations," snarled Snape, and he bent down, a hand on each arm of Harry's chair, so that their faces were a foot apart. "If your head was in Hogsmeade, so was the rest of you."

So, Snape asserts a definite conviction that Harry's invisible body was present in Hogsmeade at the time, not just Harry's head. There follows a discussion of James, which seems not relevant to me, and then we get to:

"Turn out your pockets, Potter!" he spat suddenly.

Harry didn't move. There was a pounding in his ears.

"Turn out your pockets, or we go straight to the headmaster! Pull them out, Potter!"

Cold with dread, Harry slowly pulled out the bag of Zonko's tricks and the Marauder's Map.

Snap picked up the Zonko's bag.

"Ron gave them to me," said Harry, praying he'd get a chance to tip Ron off before Snape saw him. "He -brought them back from Hogsmeade last time --"

"Indeed? And you've been carrying them around ever since? How very touching... and what is this?"

Snape had picked up the map. Harry tried with all his might to keep his face impassive.

"Spare bit of parchment," he said with a shrug.

Snape turned it over, his eyes on Harry.

"Surely you don't need such a very old piece of parchment?" he said. "Why don't I just -- throw this away?"

His hand moved toward the fire.

"No!" Harry said quickly.

"So!" said Snape, his long nostrils quivering. "Is this another treasured gift from Mr. Weasley? Or is it -- something else? A letter, perhaps, written in invisible ink? Or -- instructions to get into Hogsmeade without passing the dementors?"

Harry blinked. Snape's eyes gleamed.


This move might have been intended to turn up the Cloak (which Harry hid in the secret passage). What it does turn up is the Map, which Snape correctly guesses is not a means to turn invisible. In my opinoin, it is the answer to Snape's other question. Evenm if he has figured out how Harry can be invisible, as I suggest, that would not fool the Dementors. We know Snape knows this, not only because he is an expert at DADA, but also because Snape was present when Albus made the following speech at the Welcoming Feast:

Dumbledore cleared his throat and continued, "As you will all be aware after their search of the Hogwarts Express, our school is presently playing host to some of the dementors of Azkaban, who are here on Ministry of Magic business."

He paused, and Harry remembered what Mr. Weasley had said about Dumbledore not being happy with the dementors guarding the school.

"They are stationed at every entrance to the grounds," Dumbledore continued, "and while they are with us, I must make it plain that nobody is to leave school without permission. Dementors are not to be fooled by tricks or disguises -- or even Invisibility Cloaks," he added blandly, and Harry and Ron glanced at each other.

So it seems to me Snape does not investigate invisibility further, because he is satisfoed he knows the answer, and it is now the other mystery that he is concerned with.

If you think he did not guess it, you are suggesting something I find even less likely - that Snape would let the invisibility part of the mystery go without finding an answer.

I have to say , this is all a very excellent and very well parsed out analysis, Z. Love it. :relax: Items like this are what keep me coming back to this forum again and again.