Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Did you mean Dumbledore would be upset?

Snape let it be known Lupin was a werewolf to his Slytherins; but Snape did not rat out the most important thing which he kept secret. That was the information Lupin transformed in the School, without taking steps to protect his werewolf side against students with or without the wolfsbane. That information had Snape given it would have ensured Lupin got into very serious trouble IMO.
I was agreeing with you actually. I meant that Snape made it clear that he did not have a problem with ratting everyone out, so there was no reason why he couldn't very well have gotten Lupin into serious trouble. Something else, therefore, must have held him back.

It is also interesting to note that ultimately it was Severus who was dragged along like a "sack of garbage" - but then that is how Sirius had always treated him.

Most deservedly - Snape had bound Lupin head to toe and bound his mouth as well - so he could not speak. He then grabbed the ends of those binds and claimed he was about to drag the werewolf. So his intent was pretty clear, imo. In my view, you don't treat magical creatures that way unless they are behaving in a rabid manner or some kind of dark and evil way. I saw it as you reap what you sow - but Sirius at least floated Snape.

:agree: And as Snape did not know that Harry and co were involved until he reached the shack, I think he would have seen it as an opportunity to catch Lupin meeting Black, be proved right about Lupin, re-capture Black and be recognised as an all round hero, while at the same time avenging some of his mistreatment by the marauders. Very neat! :relax:

I agree, that was precisely his plan, imo. But it was nefarious, imo, because the whole Lupin/Black thing was all in his mind. He had no right to act on his assumption and he was wrong, imo. Indeed, everyone was wrong about Sirius. But Snape had the opportunity, like Lupin, to listen and learn, to be a different type of hero - being responsible for bringing in the "true betrayer" - Peter - but he lost that opportunity and the Medal because of his behavior, imo.

JKR had everything backfire on Snape - intentionally, imo. He was knocked against the wall by the triple spell in the shack, had his head bumped along the wall on the way out, was ultimately put in his place by Dumbledore and the Minister, after initially wishing to award him the medal, changed his mind and determined Snape was crazy. Snape's final act (ratting out Lupin) was his only "victory", but from this readers standpoint, he was behaving in a bigoted and cheap-shot manner and I felt that is what the canon wished to convey - not that his ratting out Lupin was a good thing, or there would not have been ample reasons for Lupin to leave anyway. That is the way canon could prove Snape's comment justified, by making it so that he actually did "force" Lupin to leave, but Snape didn't do that at all. Lupin was resigning anyway, the position was cursed, he wouldn't be placing the kids in danger again (they'd all be gone by his next transformation) and Snape didn't make any type of announcement, but rather used a clandestine method in slyly allowing the information to "slip out" to his students. When you combine those facts, Snape's behavior was wholly unjustified, imo, and it reveals that he was merely behaving in a petty and vindictive manner - as usual, imo.

In my judgment, Snape was not supposed to come out looking good in POA, his behavior was unwarranted (presumptive), prejudice, vindictive (which he openly admitted), petty (not listening and ratting out a colleague) cruel (all the talk of dragging and kissing while playing judge) and arrogantly disrespectful (his shack comments - and his comments before Dumbledore and the Minister). In my opinion, JKR was not trying to approve of that type of behavior. That is why she had the otherwise "moral compass" Hermione join in the flagrant and overly strong spell used against Snape which rendered him bleeding and unconscious - and why these normally caring people didn't give two twigs about Snape's welfare - and why she had the Minister declare he thought Snape was crazy - and why she had Dumbledore dismiss him pointedly from the scenario. So for me, there is no point in trying to justify Snape's behavior every step of the way, I found that the canon showed him to be clearly and pointedly behaving in a wrongful manner and while he often got away with doing so, imo, in this instance, JKR made him pay for his behavior, words and actions, in my judgment.

However, to me, if Snape knew - without a doubt - that Harry was in the possession of a Cloak and it had helped get him around all of the many and varied precautions that were set in place to protect Harry - yet Snape just simply let Harry walk away without another word, without confiscating it for Harry's own good, without detention, without punishment, without comment to Dumbledore - it's this that I find just so incredibly unlikely, especially knowing how desparately that Snape was trying to keep Harry safe, in honor of Lily.

This is why I do not believe that Snape knew the Cloak belonged to Harry, until after the fact.
The thing is that When Harry turned out his pockets he didn't have the cloak with him. Ihave to admit that I had in idle moments wondered why Harry left the cloak in the tunnel when it seems he can fit it in a pocket :hmm: but this makes sense if Rowling wanted him to not have the cloak with him when he was apprehended by Snape. Severus might very well strongly suspect that Harry has an invisibilty cloak, but if he does remember Dumbledore's speech then he is smart enough to realise that Dumbledore also knows about the invisibilty cloak. I think he was hoping to catch Harry with the cloak and so have proof that Harry had been in Hogsmeade without permission. As it is he has no proof of Harry's presence in Hogsmeade. Just owning the cloak and having it in school is not a punishable offence especially as it seems to Snape that Dumbledore already knows about it. I think it is possible that Snape went to Dumbledore even without the proof of having confiscated the invisibility cloak from Harry - especially given that he then questioned Lupin about the marauders map and he beleived that Lupin was working with Black.

We even see that Snape wonders how Harry did get around the Dementors, because he speculates the "parchment" (Marauders Map) he finds in Harry's pockets is a means to do just that. This he does confiscate, though apparently without telling Albus. Is he giving Lupin enough rope to hang himself, there? Giving Lupin a chance? Is it just that he's been harping about his Lupin suspicions for half of a year and Albus has told him to put up and shut up? This would explain also why he does not raise a stink about an Invisibility Cloak even if he suspects one.

Also, I do agree he does not "know" it in the sense of it being a fact he is fully capable of demonstrating to others, such as Albus or Minerva. Note that he believes, I am sure, that Harry was in Hogsmeade. (I would say, he knows Harry was in Hogsemade). At least, he says so, and why would he lie? That alone is plenty of reason for Harry to be in detention, etc. So why does Snape not pursue it? It seems to me this is for the same reason he does not pursue the Cloak. He was not personally present to see Harry. The evidence would be the conflicting testimony of Harry and Draco and their friends (Crabbe and Goyle presumably backed Draco, but we know also that Ron lied for Harry in that same scene), and his knowledge of both. This is the very same evidence on which I think he knows about the cloak.

I don't believe there is evidence to provide that Snape would even think "cloak" - there are many forms of magic that would allow for the events that took place - and lots of exits from Hogwarts. That is likely why he didn't pursue the matter - he didn't know what the magic was at that time. I would imagine it wouldn't matter to him because the important thing was that Harry had snuck off to Hogsmeade. That fact too was in controversy though, under a 'he said, she said' argument, so there was really nothing for Snape to pursue. I feel he didn't tell Dumbledore about the map because he had no idea what it did other than insult people. How would he look complaining about that to Dumbledore? :lol:. So he had nothing to pursue in reality, except his suspicions about Lupin.

It was not Snape's job to overstep himself in this manner as it was Albus Dumbledore's duty to address the problem to Remus; nor did Snape have a right to violate Dumbledore's trust and divulge the secret that Dumbledore had obviously asked/ordered all of the teaching staff to keep; according to the canon,

I have answered it below.

Snape didn't know the cloak belonged to Harry. Snape didn't even know Harry had a cloak at all, otherwise he'd have nailed him to the wall over that 'mudding of Malfoy in Hogsmeade' incident.

Zg's post # 797 is a beautiful answer IMO. :D

Zg's post! # 797 :clap: :clap:
http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=5265035&postcount=797

According to canon, Snape would have come into knowledge that the cloak actually belonged to Harry Potter only after he'd lurked in the Shack and overheard Remus's pronouncement on page 354, of: "They sneaked out of the castle every month under James's Invisibility Cloak."By which time Snape would have seen the kids there and realized he was hiding beneath something that belonged to that dratted bully Potter. I wonder what he thought of that?

I think this is one interpretation, and I respect your opinion, but I think zg's post is more applicable, because I think there is a lot more chance Snape would have read Harry's surface thoughts about his invisibility cloak.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of social prejudice, cause if so you already know what I know - it ain't no dad-gummed picnic!

No; I am ashamed to say I am actually part of a race (in India - the caste system) that a few decades earlier indulged in it. Stories from my grandparents time shame me a lot more than the many mistakes I make.

For me it is not just the lycantrophy; for me it was the fact that Lupin could forget his wolfsbane. That is more dangerous IMO. I think Snape saw it that way too. If it could happen once, it could happen again. And I don't agree when a person with a serious curse id capable of forgetting his vital potion when he is in a boarding School teaching kids.

What if Lupin for some other reason forgot his medicine once again for some other equally important reason, and this time, what if the Map was on his person or tucked away somewhere and he harms someone before others are able to get to him.

I think that is the scenario Snape saw and that is why he took the decision he did. Snape if he wanted to out Lupin, could have done after the werewolf incident in his youth; he never talks to Lily about it, until Lily first brings up the topic; he could have told everyone afetr the SWM, when Remus did not do his prefectly duties; he could have told everyone once he left School, Remus was not his friend, he was the enemy when Snape was a DE.

Snape does not tell everyone, for the Slytherins themselves only come to know that morning at breakfast, before which no owls came for Remus.

Snape revealed it at that time, because I think he truly thought Lupin to be dangerous, and truly felt that if Lupin was careless once for whatever reason, he could be careless again and that time could cause the damage that this time was averted only because of Sirius IMO.

I was agreeing with you actually. I meant that Snape made it clear that he did not have a problem with ratting everyone out, so there was no reason why he couldn't very well have gotten Lupin into serious trouble. Something else, therefore, must have held him back.

Okay! :)

Most deservedly - Snape had bound Lupin head to toe and bound his mouth as well - so he could not speak. He then grabbed the ends of those binds and claimed he was about to drag the werewolf. So his intent was pretty clear, imo. In my view, you don't treat magical creatures that way unless they are behaving in a rabid manner or some kind of dark and evil way. I saw it as you reap what you sow - but Sirius at least floated Snape.

I think Snape bound Lupin, because Snape knew Lupin had not taken his potion and the full moon was very close and Lupin once transformed would have abnormal strength and be a danger to the kids and himself.

Sirius had no such reasons IMO.

Most deservedly - Snape had bound Lupin head to toe and bound his mouth as well - so he could not speak. He then grabbed the ends of those binds and claimed he was about to drag the werewolf. So his intent was pretty clear, imo. In my view, you don't treat magical creatures that way unless they are behaving in a rabid manner or some kind of dark and evil way. I saw it as you reap what you sow - but Sirius at least floated Snape.If you are going to talk about reaping what you sow then that is precisely what happened to Lupin. He did nothing to stop his friends from bullying Snape when they were teenagers even though he was a prefect and it was his duty to do so. In my view prefects should not behave that way just because it is their friends doing the bullying. So Snape telling the Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf seems pretty fair to me.

I could also apply your reasoning to Lupin in terms that if he behaved with a little more backbone then perhaps his life would not have been so difficult.

For me it is not just the lycantrophy; for me it was the fact that Lupin could forget his wolfsbane. That is more dangerous IMO. I think Snape saw it that way too. If it could happen once, it could happen again. And I don't agree when a person with a serious curse id capable of forgetting his vital potion when he is in a boarding School teaching kids. I agree. If you have a condition that means that without medication youcould be dangerous you make sure you take your medication! This becomes even more imperative if you are around children. I think this is what Snape thought as well; emp[loying a werewolf is one thing - employing a forgetful werewolf is something else.

I think Snape bound Lupin, because Snape knew Lupin had not taken his potion and the full moon was very close and Lupin once transformed would have abnormal strength and be a danger to the kids and himself.Exactly! It would have been irresponsible for Snape not to have bound Lupin given that he was werewolf and it was full-moon. This was not Snape showing prejudice - Lupin was dangerous and I think we see that quite clearly in what actually happens. Ron was very lucky not to have been bitten. As for Sirius - I think it was miraculus that he wasn't bitten - it certainly 'disturbed' my suspension of disbelief.

I think Snape bound Lupin, because Snape knew Lupin had not taken his potion and the full moon was very close and Lupin once transformed would have abnormal strength and be a danger to the kids and himself. Sirius had no such reasons IMO.

Well but Sirius knelt down and undid the ties by hand, so they were not held magically in place. Lupin, as a werewolf, would have easily broke free, and he wouldn't have actually had to try - his clothes ripped apart when he transformed and the bonds were tight, so they too would go. So I don't believe that was Snape's plan. I think he planned to get Lupin out in the open before the dementors, prior to his transformation so that he could be kissed. They apparently don't bother kissing animals...

If you are going to talk about reaping what you sow then that is precisely what happened to Lupin. He did nothing to stop his friends from bullying Snape when they were teenagers even though he was a prefect and it was his duty to do so. In my view prefects should not behave that way just because it is their friends doing the bullying. So Snape telling the Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf seems pretty fir to me.

I could also apply your reasoning to Lupin in terms that if he behaved with a little more backbone then perhaps his life would not have been so difficult.

I agree. If you ahve a condition that means that without medication youcould be dangerous you make sure you take your medication! This becomes even more imperative if you are around children. I think this is what Snape thought as well; emp[loying a werewolf is one thing - employing a forgetful werewolf is something else.

Yup, everyone reaps what they sow.

But I would have to respectfully disagree that Snape was thinking about Lupin not taking the potion. Snape hadn't brought it along to the Office yet and he would have understood that upon seeing the map, Lupin would go running down to the shack, imo. (And that would be whether he was in league with Black or not). But as I said earlier, when Snape ratted out Lupin, he was no longer a danger to the children, so Snape was not using an "only means" of having Lupin leave before the next year. If the DADA curse didn't send Lupin away, Snape would have all summer to reason with Lupin, or plead his case to Dumbledore, and if he didn't leave, he could use his last resort at that time, imo. A word to Lucius would have had the same effect.

In my judgment, Snape was not supposed to come out looking good in POA

'Course not - otherwise it would have given the whole plot away. :lol: We aren't supposed to see the big picture, so Snape comes across as petty and with bad intentions. But we don't have enough information to judge him fairly, as we do now after DH and "Prince's Tale." That puts Snape in a whole new light so we have to go back and edit our opinion, just as Harry does at the end of the series.

Harry sees Snape as the bad guy at the end of PoA but he is mistaken, isn't he? Snape mistrusted Lupin and wanted to make a "citizen's arrest" of Sirius because he thought they had somehow conspired together to (A) Hand Lily over to Voldemort and (B) To Kill Harry as well.

He had no way of knowing that Peter was alive, or that Lupin hadn't forgotten his potion "accidentally on purpose."

When Snape found out he was wrong, he never tried to kill Sirius again, even though Harry blamed him (wrongly, imo) for the death. And Snape certainly kept Lupin's secrets when he was staying at Grimmauld Place.

Think about the first chapter of DH and the way Voldemort talked about Lupin being unclean and all that. Doesn't that mitigate Snape just a teensy bit? He mistrusted Lupin - who was lying to Dumbledore all through PoA - but he never calls him a beast or unclean, and he particularly helps Lupin. In fact, JKR wrote Snape to be the only one who could really help Lupin in PoA.

And as far as Sirius goes, there's that little scene of them shaking hands in GoF, which Harry sees as a "miracle." He thought Dumbledore was asking too much of both Sirius and Snape, but they surprised Harry, at least at that moment.

Just one of many surprises that Harry had out of Snape over the course of seven books. :whistle:

Excellent post SIP! Great to see you in the thread!
{Off-topic}I love your sig - both the pic and the quote. I saw the HBP posters for the first time the other day and I absolutely love the one of Snape! His expression is amazing (and they've made him look younger :whistle: )

'Course not - otherwise it would have given the whole plot away. :lol: We aren't supposed to see the big picture, so Snape comes across as petty and with bad intentions. But we don't have enough information to judge him fairly, as we do now after DH and "Prince's Tale." That puts Snape in a whole new light so we have to go back and edit our opinion, just as Harry does at the end of the series.

Harry sees Snape as the bad guy at the end of PoA but he is mistaken, isn't he? Snape mistrusted Lupin and wanted to make a "citizen's arrest" of Sirius because he thought they had somehow conspired together to (A) Hand Lily over to Voldemort and (B) To Kill Harry as well.

He had no way of knowing that Peter was alive, or that Lupin hadn't forgotten his potion "accidentally on purpose."

When Snape found out he was wrong, he never tried to kill Sirius again, even though Harry blamed him (wrongly, imo) for the death. And Snape certainly kept Lupin's secrets when he was staying at Grimmauld Place.

I respect your view, but I don't understand how DH changed anything at all. We were speaking about POA - when Snape refused to listen, claimed he wanted revenge, declared he was going to have Sirius and Lupin kissed (the latter a judgment he made of his own accord despite Dumbledore trusting Lupin), he spoke disrespectfully to Harry and then threatened him. Later, he continued trying to press his way, despite Dumbledore explaining to him that he was wrong. Then he behaved in a vindictive manner and ratted out Lupin. Those were all things that Snape did, his behavior, none of which was shown in a new light after DH, imo. He still looks bad in POA, imo, and it has nothing to do with his mistaken belief that Sirius was a murderer and Lupin was helping him. Everyone thought Sirius was a murderer - especially Harry - whose parents had been killed by him. Yet, he listened. That was the difference, imo. As you pointed out, once Snape found out the truth of matters, he restrained himself - but the point is, if he had listened, he would have found out prior to behaving in the manner he did. He could have truly been the hero - helping to bring Peter to Justice. But his desire for revenge caused him to behave in a petty manner throughout and he lost that opportunity and ended up the shamed party in POA, imo.

Think about the first chapter of DH and the way Voldemort talked about Lupin being unclean and all that. Doesn't that mitigate Snape just a teensy bit? He mistrusted Lupin - who was lying to Dumbledore all through PoA - but he never calls him a beast or unclean, and he particularly helps Lupin. In fact, JKR wrote Snape to be the only one who could really help Lupin in PoA.

I would respectfully disagree. He called Lupin a dark creature (comparing him with a murderer), bound him up (including his mouth) and declared he was going to drag him across the grounds. That sounds to me like Snape's opinion at that time regarding Lupin was exactly the same as Voldemort's in DH. When asked why Lupin hadn't tried to kill Harry all year long, Snape's response was 'don't ask him to fathom the mind of a werewolf'. Snape was making potion because Dumbledore asked him to, and the whole time he attempted to get Dumbledore to fire the man. So I don't see that as benevolence on Snape's part. Further, he gave the assignment to Harry's class on werewolves to try and expose Lupin - knowing Hermione was smart enough to figure it out, according to the canon. And Snape called him "Lupin" throughout, which imo, was a clear sign of disrespect since all of the professors were on a first name basis. Snape called Mcgonagall "Minerva" - and this despite the fact that Lupin called him "Severus". I see nothing in the tale that allows for mitigation for Snape with respect to his actions in POA (with respect to what we are discussing). When it is all topped off by Snape using a clandestine means of ratting out Lupin - rather than going to Dumbledore if he had legitimate concerns (at which point he would have been told that Lupin had resigned) - says to me that Snape felt Lupin was inferior and had a very deeply ingrained prejudice against werewolves.

And as far as Sirius goes, there's that little scene of them shaking hands in GoF, which Harry sees as a "miracle." He thought Dumbledore was asking too much of both Sirius and Snape, but they surprised Harry, at least at that moment.

Agreed. But that was followed by a scene where they were at one another's throats on the point of trying to curse one another to death. :rotfl: So I am not sure what your point was, but they were not friends.

Everyone thought Sirius was a murderer - especially Harry - whose parents had been killed by him. Yet, he listened. That was the difference, imo.

Harry knew about Peter Pettigrew, he had seen proof before this point in the Shack that Pettigrew was still alive because of the Marauders Map. That is why he gave them a chance to explain about Pettigrew. Snape did not have this knowledge, he thought Pettigrew was dead.

Sirius was set on revenge against Pettigrew (the traitor) to the point where he was prepared to kill him in cold blood in front of three children. Snape thought Sirius was the SK (the traitor). Their feelings echoed each other and directed towards who they thought or was the SK. So, I agree with SIP, DH further explains Snape's feelings.

Harry knew about Peter Pettigrew, he had seen proof before this point in the Shack that Pettigrew was still alive because of the Marauders Map. That is why he gave them a chance to explain about Pettigrew. Snape did not have this knowledge, he thought Pettigrew was dead.

I respect your view, However, Harry told Lupin the map was defective because Pettigrew was on it, he did not think Peter was actually still alive. So he listened despite his firm belief that Sirius was the murderer of his parents - he moved to kill Sirius - then sat contemplating it when Lupin took his wand away. It was only when it was given back to him that the kids backed down. Prior to that, they all three stood there defiant, claiming that the two men would have to kill them all. So I would disagree that Pettigrew's apearance on the map had anything to do with Harry listening.

The 5 people in that room tried again and again to tell Snape about Pettigrew. He told them to shut up, bound Lupin's mouth, threatened Sirius, then Harry and declared he planned to have the 2 men kissed. But I feel Snape did not want to listen because he did not want to hear anything that would exonerate Sirius. He claimed he wanted revenge and that was his top priority, in my judgment. Harry's parents had been killed by the man he faced; a much more emotionally laden fact than what Snape was feeling, imo. And Harry did listen - he could have cursed both Lupin and Sirius (any of the kids could have), they had no wands. But instead, they listened. And Harry was still under the firm belief that Sirius had murdered his parents; Sirius had admitted it - so as far as he was concerned, he was just giving due process.

Sirius was set on revenge against Pettigrew (the traitor) to the point where he was prepared to kill him in cold blood in front of three children. Snape thought Sirius was the SK (the traitor). Their feelings echoed each other and directed towards who they thought or was the SK. So, I agree with SIP, DH further explains Snape's feelings.

I respect your view - and we know another reason "why" Snape may have been upset in POA after reading DH. However, that does not explain why he didn't listen. Sirius and Remus spent 4-5 pages "listening" to Peter and he was guilty - no excuse. :lol:. And they believed him completely guilty before, during and after they listened - and we knew in POA (well before DH) that Sirius and Remus would be even more emotionally distraught over it all than Snape was even after DH. They had lost their best friends (who were their best friends at the time) and for Sirius, his brother - Peter had been their friend and betrayed them and Sirius had spent 12 years in Azkaban - the death prison - where he was emaciated and ravaged. So emotions were high for everyone. Still, Remus forced them all to listen - behaving in a manner just opposite of Snape (and his emotional reasons don't count any more than anyone else's, imo. To me they were less fervent, but even if they were equal he'd have no standing to not listen, imo). Sirius and Remus tried to kill a guilty man, after giving him a chance to be heard - Snape prejudged an innocent man and refused to allow him to speak on his own behalf, knowing he had some salient facts - he did hear about the rat because he admitted it the next day - but he didn't wish to hear more or understand, imo.

To clarify, if Peter had had a good reason, he would have had a chance to explain and give his proof. But he didn't have an explanation or proof, he claimed Voldy was going to win - it was obvious - so he did what he felt was best - guilty! :lol:. That is what made all the difference in the world and distinguished Sirius and Remus' behavior from Snape's, imo.

Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?

I wouldn't change anything. He is a fantastic, complex, grey character.

What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

Possibly do something he loves, perhaps connected to creating/improving potions.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

Not all the time. I don't like parroting someone else's opinions; I like to think for myself. We both have different life experiences and perspectives so it makes sense we'll view some things differently. :)

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I don't really know. Something else could have happened to motivate Snape into realising the direction he had taken in joining the DE's was wrong.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

I had a feeling Snape would turn out to be working for the 'good side', so I had already been considering thing were not all they seemed. I thought it was incredibly brave of Snape to obey Dumbledore's wishes, he would be despised for fulfilling Dumbledore's request. Even while bearing this blame he did all he could to protect the people at Hogwarts while Headmaster.

I understand (not justify) Snape's anger at Sirius.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

I think it was a chance for him to belong and to be accepted. Also, there was the opportunity of power, strength and protection against people who have abused him. He would no longer be seen as weak or vulnerable.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

He was very brave in going to Dumbledore and spying on Voldemort. He did need Dumbledore's 'wake up' call to re-evaluate things.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

Devasted him. She was the only person who ever saw past his appearance and accpeted him. She became his guarding light.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

Bravery, loyalty. Prepared to work in the shadows and alone to protect and keep people safe, despite them not even knowing and/or hating him. Strength of will. Creatve and extremely intelligent.

Insecure. Bitter (although I understand why). Overbearing at times.

I think Snape cared that Harry understood him.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Probably not if he had been in say, Ravenclaw. However, I think he still would have been targetted by the Marauders. James suspected Snape had feelings for Lily, I think he still would have bullied Snape to get Lily's attention. There is only so much bad treatment someone can take before they lash out or break down.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

Explained mostly above. Tragic, Byronic, anti hero. He fits into any of these.

Obviously, the above are my opinions. :)

As for Sirius - I think it was miraculus that he wasn't bitten - it certainly 'disturbed' my suspension of disbelief.

Isn't it explicit that he was bitten (in dog form)? I think the point is that when werewolves bite animals, it's just a bite like any other, and that this immunity is conferred on wizards while they are in their transformed state. I see it is...

They were locked, jaw to jaw, claws ripping at each other.

There is later mention of gashes on Sirius's muzzle, which must have been caused by teeth, from this description.

I agree with the rest of your post. The "reaping what you sow" style of analysis seems too broadly applicable to me. Throwing it into a discussion of Snape and Lupin's relations, as you point out, can apply to either character. :D It surely applies to Snape sometimes - I'd say more obviously so regarding his actions as a Death Eater. He would mostly have a happier life if Lily was still alive. :) But it applies to tons of other characters in the series. ALbus, Lupin (as you say), James and Lily, Sirius, the Weasley family, and doubtless others I am forgetting.

Isn't it explicit that he was bitten (in dog form)? I think the point is that when werewolves bite animals, it's just a bite like any other, and that this immunity is conferred on wizards while they are in their transformed state. I see it is...

They were locked, jaw to jaw, claws ripping at each other.

There is later mention of gashes on Sirius's muzzle, which must have been caused by teeth, from this description.

I agree, it was my understanding that he was bitten too.

I agree with the rest of your post. The "reaping what you sow" style of analysis seems too broadly applicable to me. Throwing it into a discussion of Snape and Lupin's relations, as you point out, can apply to either character. :D It surely applies to Snape sometimes - I'd say more obviously so regarding his actions as a Death Eater. He would mostly have a happier life if Lily was still alive. :) But it applies to tons of other characters in the series. ALbus, Lupin (as you say), James and Lily, Sirius, the Weasley family, and doubtless others I am forgetting.

Everyone reaps what they sow. But the point was about Snape - and he wasn't sowing good seeds in POA which, in my judgment, is why he reaped negative results. As a Death Eater, Snape's actions reaped far more than unhappiness over a friend he'd already lost, imo. Snape participated with a group that was killing numerous individuals and that was a lot of sowing, imo. I would opine that the realization of the greater overall, "big picture" wrong would be a more imporant concern that Snape would have to deal with.

Certainly a person can reap without sowing anything at all. That is life. But vengeance is a two way detriment because it not only can have a disastrous outcome, it eats a man alive, imo. Revenge has an enduring quality, which is what Lupin was explaining to Harry; a person has to aggressively nip it in the bud. The problem is, many associate "liking someone" with "loss of revenge" - but there is no real parity. One can "not like or dislike" (i.e., pursue neither) and lose their feelings of vengeance - and of course "liking" would work the same way. But dislike breeds vengeful feelings and that is why it cannot work.

You are assuming that Snape is motivated by revenge in PoA, with regards to his treatment of Lupin. This is not an established fact, merely your interpretation (with which I disagree). Like Harry, who desires revenge against the betrayer of his parents, I believe Severus is motivated by a desire to avenge the woman he loved in his dealings with Sirius. Lupin, I think he distrusts because he fears he is in cahoots with Sirius and a threat to Harry (especially) and everyone around him (more generally). Those of Lupin's actions that Snape observes do little to dispell such suspicions, and what Snape overhears of his conversation with Sirius and the Trio, would tend to support those views.

Of course, perhaps we should conclude that Peter's escape is Harry reaping what he sowed? He was going to take poor Peter up to the castle where he might be Kissed by Dementors on the Ministry's orders for having killed Muggles and betrayed Harry's parents. :hmm:

Isn't it explicit that he was bitten (in dog form)? I think the point is that when werewolves bite animals, it's just a bite like any other, and that this immunity is conferred on wizards while they are in their transformed state. I see it is...

They were locked, jaw to jaw, claws ripping at each other.

There is later mention of gashes on Sirius's muzzle, which must have been caused by teeth, from this description.

Suddenly it all makes much more sense! :lol:


I agree with the rest of your post. The "reaping what you sow" style of analysis seems too broadly applicable to me. Throwing it into a discussion of Snape and Lupin's relations, as you point out, can apply to either character. :D It surely applies to Snape sometimes - I'd say more obviously so regarding his actions as a Death Eater. He would mostly have a happier life if Lily was still alive. :) But it applies to tons of other characters in the series. ALbus, Lupin (as you say), James and Lily, Sirius, the Weasley family, and doubtless others I am forgetting.

Yes - IMO you can't apply it to one character, but then not apply it to all characters.

Everyone reaps what they sow. I disagree. Life isn't fair. Some people have a difficult time without ever having sown the seeds for it while others sail through life with no problems at all while sowing lots of "bad seeds". But that is life.

The thing is that When Harry turned out his pockets he didn't have the cloak with him. Ihave to admit that I had in idle moments wondered why Harry left the cloak in the tunnel when it seems he can fit it in a pocket but this makes sense if Rowling wanted him to not have the cloak with him when he was apprehended by Snape.Right, which says to me that the author had the intent of keeping this Cloak secret from Snape. Which then says to me, he didn't "know" who exactly the Cloak belonged to upon his seeing it and picking it up at the entrance to the Whomping Willow.

So again, IMO, Snape didn't put the puzzle pieces together until he (1) saw Harry in the Shack, and (2) heard Lupin explain that James Potter had owned a Cloak and used it to sneak about.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of Snape putting the pieces together - I'm just disagreeing as to the timeframe. :)
because I think there is a lot more chance Snape would have read Harry's surface thoughts about his invisibility cloak.Do you mean before or after his entering the Shack? Because I disagree that Snape'd "know" - not "suspect" but "know" - before hand and have done absolutely nothing about it. :no:
For me it is not just the lycantrophy; for me it was the fact that Lupin could forget his wolfsbane. That is more dangerous IMO. I think Snape saw it that way too. If it could happen once, it could happen again. And I don't agree when a person with a serious curse id capable of forgetting his vital potion when he is in a boarding School teaching kids.More dangerous than the very real potential of Harry Potter, Ronald Weasley, and Hermione Granger being murdered by the escaped mass murderer, Sirius Black, who'd broken out of Azkaban and had apparently made several failed attempts to kill Harry Potter beforehand? :no: I'm sorry, I disagree. Again, I feel this puts way too much emphasis on the lycanthropy and little to none on the given direness of the situation unfolding before Remus's eyes on that map.

Nor do I agree, that once the man was no longer transformed and no longer posed any further danger to any students or faculty at the school, that he deserved to have been "outed" in the manner that he was.

Let me ask you, I know I've asked before but they never seem to get answered, so I'll try one last time:


Do you feel that Snape violated Dumbledore's trust in deliberately letting this secret out?
Was it Snape's job to address this issue of Remus and future dangers, or was this the Headmaster's responsibility?
And again, if there was no possible imminent or even future danger of exposure to a transformed werewolf - what exactly - at that particular moment in time - could Snape have possibly been saving the Slytherins from? :huh:

What if Lupin for some other reason forgot his medicine once again for some other equally important reason, and this time, what if the Map was on his person or tucked away somewhere and he harms someone before others are able to get to him.It is not Snape's job to violate the secret or address the issue. IMO. None of the other Hogwarts faculty overstepped themselves, despite their misgivings.

Once again, a full moon only occurs every 29-30 days. The full moon in the story fell upon June 6th, the school holidays would have began and no students would have been left at Hogwarts to be exposed to a possibly transformed werewolf in future! Snape would have known this, IMO, that this scenario wasn't even a potential possibility! Remus had already resigned his post too, wasn't even staying until the end of school.

No scenario - so why then, did Snape do it?
I think that is the scenario Snape saw and that is why he took the decision he did. Snape if he wanted to out Lupin, could have done after the werewolf incident in his youth; he never talks to Lily about it, until Lily first brings up the topic; he could have told everyone afetr the SWM, when Remus did not do his prefectly duties; he could have told everyone once he left School, Remus was not his friend, he was the enemy when Snape was a DE.Yes, he could have outed Remus at school - in direct violation of Dumbledore's order, I might add. He was sworn to secrecy. However, that didn't stop him from expressing his views to Lily before hand, nor did it stop him from trying to get her to believe him either.

You know, I actually always wondered if Snape was maybe a little afraid on Lily's behalf, regarding the werewolf issue, and was trying to make her aware so that she could take precautions, without really coming right out and saying it? :shrug:

However, to me, both times at the school Snape is under obligation to Dumbledore to keep the secret of Remus's lycanthropy - and in one instance he utterly and IMO deliberately fails to do so, and that is only after Black has escaped.
Snape revealed it at that time, because I think he truly thought Lupin to be dangerous, and truly felt that if Lupin was careless once for whatever reason, he could be careless again and that time could cause the damage that this time was averted only because of Sirius IMO.I can respect that this is how you feel, TGW. :) It just to me, seems to exclude the knowledge that Snape would have regarding the next full moon - therefore the next true danger of transformation - falling after school holidays had begun when no students would be around to possibly run into danger. Nor do I feel that it addresses Snape's overstepping his bounds and violating Dumbledore's trust on this issue.

Sorry, everyone, you are now listening to the song styling's of "Why'd he do it, if not for spite?" on my broken record...:rockon: :lol: :rotfl:
I think Snape bound Lupin, because Snape knew Lupin had not taken his potion and the full moon was very close and Lupin once transformed would have abnormal strength and be a danger to the kids and himself.But once Lupin had transformed, the ropes would have fallen away, because unlike the film, Remus in the books turned into a "wolf" and not a "wolf-like human". Those bindings would have been terribly ineffective. Then too, you have the scenario of Remus transforming, Snape's being distracted by it, and leaving him to fall victim to Black and three armed teenagers. :shrug:
prefect and it was his duty to do soPrefects aren't perfect, and quite frankly most that I've seen have broken more than a few rules themselves, including Percy and Hermione. It doesn't excuse Remus's inaction at that point, but since this thread is about Snape...
I agree. If you have a condition that means that without medication youcould be dangerous you make sure you take your medication! This becomes even more imperative if you are around children. I think this is what Snape thought as well; emp[loying a werewolf is one thing - employing a forgetful werewolf is something else.Please! :lol: One missed draft in a years' time in the frantic rush to save the lives of three children does not make anyone repetitively forgetful.
He had no way of knowing that Peter was alive, or that Lupin hadn't forgotten his potion "accidentally on purpose." Accidentally on purpose? Well, I've heard it all now. :elaugh:
And Snape certainly kept Lupin's secrets when he was staying at Grimmauld Place. What secrets were those? Snape had already "outed" Remus as a werewolf years earlier, it was even mentioned in the Daily Prophet a time or two after that. Fenrir Greyback knew Remus was a werewolf, as he'd been the one to deliver the bite on a defenseless child, so that couldn't be it either. What secrets was Snape keeping on Lupin's behalf? Where Remus was living? Well, no, that was protected by the Fidelius Charm, wasn't it? :hmm: That Remus was a member of the Order? Possibly, but Remus had been a member of the Order during the first war.

I'm not sure what it is you're getting at.
who was lying to Dumbledore all through PoAWell, no, I disagree or would rather qualify it to say Remus "kept secrets". Lupin is never shown to have deliberately lied to Dumbledore when asked a specific question, IMO. I could, of course, be entirely wrong. :lol:

However, simply because Snape doesn't join in the nastiness at the Malfoys doesn't really mitigate anything, IMO. IMO it wouldn't have made it any worse if he had done - because he was playing a role, and quite effectively, too. :agree:

His saving Remus, however, does mitigate his cursing George's ear off, though.So, I agree with SIP, DH further explains Snape's feelings.:clap: Oh, I concur completely. Deathly Hallows allows us to see and comprehend Severus in a different light. Totally agree. I just disagree that that simple comprehension suddenly turns every nasty comment, act, behavior, dirty look etc into something that it wasn't.

See, we know he killed Dumbledore - we witnessed it and via the Hallows we understand there was a pact between Severus and Dumbledore and that it was a 'mercy killing' and that Dumbledore was already 'dying'. But it doesn't change the fact that Severus Snape used one of the three Unforgivables on Dumbledore and killed him. Understanding to me doesn't "change" the actions, just the motivations. It allows one to attain forgiveness for the prior acts they committed, but it doesn't wipe away the act itself. That goes towards Dumbledore and others in the series too, not just Snape. Just my opinion. :shrug:
Like Harry, who desires revenge against the betrayer of his parents, I believe Severus is motivated by a desire to avenge the woman he loved in his dealings with Sirius.I agree, and I often wonder what it took for Snape not to act against Wormtail as he lived in his home at Spinner's End. All of the nasty evil things that he could have done to seek vengeance for Lily, yet didn't. :huh:

Let me ask you, I know I've asked before but they never seem to get answered, so I'll try one last time:

[LIST=1]
Do you feel that Snape violated Dumbledore's trust in deliberately letting this secret out?

No. Since I saw Dumbledore did not stop trusting Snape; in fact I did not even see Snape receiving a rap on his knuckles for outing Lupin.

Was it Snape's job to address this issue of Remus and future dangers, or was this the Headmaster's responsibility?

Snape as a teacher, I think enjoys some power. This was not Order work where Dumbledore's law was supreme; this was a school where Snape as a teacher had enough rights to take a stance on behalf of his students IMO. Which is what he did.

And again, if there was no possible imminent or even future danger of exposure to a transformed werewolf - what exactly - at that particular moment in time - could Snape have possibly been saving the Slytherins from? :huh:

Zg has answered it in the Remus Lupin thread; I will post it here. That sums it up beautifully.

Missing the one dose in the shock of realizing Peter was alive and all that might imply, I agree, was not something I can too much hold against Remus. Anyone might mess up like that, in the heat of the moment.

It is forgetting AGAIN that I hold against him. In the Shack, Snape reminded him that he had forgotten to take it. And yet, in the orderly retreat from the Shack under no particular time pressure, Snape having been disposed of, Remus forgot what might happen at any moment, and went out of the Shack in the company of three kids. bold mine

Lupin had already showed that he had again forgotten the danger he represented at that time and he did not stay on the in Shack to transform safely. I think Snape was justified in making sure he would not come to teach at Hogwarts in some other capacity later on IMO.

You are assuming that Snape is motivated by revenge in PoA, with regards to his treatment of Lupin. This is not an established fact, merely your interpretation (with which I disagree). Like Harry, who desires revenge against the betrayer of his parents, I believe Severus is motivated by a desire to avenge the woman he loved in his dealings with Sirius. Lupin, I think he distrusts because he fears he is in cahoots with Sirius and a threat to Harry (especially) and everyone around him (more generally). Those of Lupin's actions that Snape observes do little to dispell such suspicions, and what Snape overhears of his conversation with Sirius and the Trio, would tend to support those views.

I respect your view, but I don't follow. If Snape thought Lupin was in cahoots with the murderer of Lily, why wouldn't he want revenge on him too? And if he didn't wish revenge, why did he bind Lupin up in the manner he did - silencing him - and make to drag him through the grounds? Is there some reason he could not float him?

Of course, perhaps we should conclude that Peter's escape is Harry reaping what he sowed? He was going to take poor Peter up to the castle where he might be Kissed by Dementors on the Ministry's orders for having killed Muggles and betrayed Harry's parents. :hmm:

Well that is why I said: "Certainly a person can reap without sowing anything at all. That is life." Harry did the right thing all around in terms of Peter. He heard him out and he ensured the man would get due process back at the castle. But the man had already admitted his guilt, so it was really academic.

But that was not the case for Snape. Snape refused to listen, that is why he wasn't informed in that scene. His subsequent action was unfair mainly for that reason, which is why the trio cast the spell - and note they did so at the same time without consulting one another. Snape had to be stopped because it got to the point where he threatened Harry - with what, we didn't find out because of the spell that rendered him unconscious. I don't believe avenging Lily was on his mind. As we saw later, he had Peter move in and live with him. I believe that was the way in which JKR was showing that Snape's actions in the shack were related to getting at his enemies - he'd just heard a tale retold which brought out one event in which he'd ended up looking foolish and that upset him, imo. This is the same thing that happened in HBP when Harry sent his spells at him - it was a trigger - and up zoomed memories, imo. Everytime that happened, he 'lost it' in canon, imo, and this was just another occassion. Snape never accused Sirius of victimizing him; he treated him like an enemy equal, imo. That together with his living with Peter leads me to feel that his actual problem with Sirius and Remus was the past. Peter hadn't been that involved.

So we shall continue to :rockon:

No. Since I saw Dumbledore did not stop trusting Snape; in fact I did not even see Snape receiving a rap on his knuckles for outing Lupin. The question wasn't did this incident cause Dumbledore to stop trusting Snape, it was: Did Snape violate Dumbledore's trust in regards to this secret? :)

See, Dumbledore entrusted his staff - all of them - with this secret. Who, of the staff, violated that trust and deliberately let the secret out irrespective of Dumbledore's trust and confidence? Snape. Oh, and Hagrid too, I suppose, though only after Snape had already done so.
Snape as a teacher, I think enjoys some power. This was not Order work where Dumbledore's law was supreme; this was a school where Snape as a teacher had enough rights to take a stance on behalf of his students IMO. Which is what he did.Well, Dumbledore was certainly no Voldemort, unquestioning loyalty or death! :lol:

However, Snape didn't have the enjoyment of just blurting out Dumbledore's secrets any time he wished. Nor did he have the enjoyment of turning down assignments given to him by the Headmaster, such as whipping up the Wolfsbane for Remus or giving Harry Occlumency lessons.

I disagree that he enjoys "some power" as he enjoys just as much power at school as any of the other professors IMO and first and foremost McGonagall as Deputy Headmistress, had more than the rest, as she had more duties to both the faculty and the students. I'm qualifying "some power" by the way, as separate from his spying activities.

I completely disagree that Snape was taking a stance on behalf of his students, because quite frankly "his students" encompassed the student body of every House at Hogwarts and not just the Slytherins. If he had been taking a stance then IMO he should have done it months and months ago, not to mention he should absolutely have been sure to have included all of the students of Hogwarts - most especially those of Gryffindor House, who seemed to have a particular liking for this particular Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. But Snape didn't do that. Not at all.
Lupin had already showed that he had again forgotten the danger he represented at that time and he did not stay on the in Shack to transform safely. I think Snape was justified in making sure he would not come to teach at Hogwarts in some other capacity later on IMO.I certainly respect Z's opinion and even answered on the other thread, however, again, this does not answer the question IMO as there was and would be "No" so-called "later on". Yes, Remus failed to take the potion one night out of the week, first time the entire year - and it was not an intentional slip - but rather an all to understandable leap into action for real danger to three students.

Yet at the time that Snape let the secret "slip" the danger of a transformed werewolf to the students of Hogwarts had passed. It wouldn't become a problem for another month by which time school would have been out for summer break and no students---no students at all---would have been in any type of so-called future danger from a transformed werewolf at Hogwarts.

So again, if there's "No" so-called danger "later on" as was argued - then what was Snape's real reason for letting the secret slip to the Slytherins - and only to the Slytherins?

None at all, IMO, except for spite on his part. :rockon:

I disagree. Life isn't fair. Some people have a difficult time without ever having sown the seeds for it while others sail through life with no problems at all while sowing lots of "bad seeds". But that is life.

Very true. :tu:

:clap: Oh, I concur completely. Deathly Hallows allows us to see and comprehend Severus in a different light. Totally agree. I just disagree that that simple comprehension suddenly turns every nasty comment, act, behavior, dirty look etc into something that it wasn't.

See, we know he killed Dumbledore - we witnessed it and via the Hallows we understand there was a pact between Severus and Dumbledore and that it was a 'mercy killing' and that Dumbledore was already 'dying'. But it doesn't change the fact that Severus Snape used one of the three Unforgivables on Dumbledore and killed him. Understanding to me doesn't "change" the actions, just the motivations. It allows one to attain forgiveness for the prior acts they committed, but it doesn't wipe away the act itself. That goes towards Dumbledore and others in the series too, not just Snape. Just my opinion. :shrug:



Of course, some things won't necessarily seem different because Snape has flaws and is prone to them like anyone else. Understanding a person's intentions make a huge difference for me. In the instance you provided it changed a cold-blooded murder into a mercy killing where Snape was fulfilling the wishes of a dying man. Intentions are what drives a person toward action, what motivates them, what they hope to achieve, what feelings they are acting on, etc

Intentions are what drives a person toward action, what motivates them, what they hope to achieve, what feelings they are acting on, etc:tu: I agree.

The only thing I was getting at is simply that "acts" aren't really wiped away, bad behavior isn't erased, seeming hatred isn't excused, bullying of students isn't undone or justifiable, IMO.

I certainly don't hold the mercy killing of Dumbledore against Snape, that was probably one of the hardest things he ever had to do, IMO. This was the only person who knew all of his secrets, a man he seemed to like and respect if the clucking like a mother hen is anything to go by...and yet, he's tasked with ending this relationship with a long time friend and ally, and fated to then basically have no one and nothing from that point forward, except a thankless task and suspicion on all sides.

Do you feel that Snape violated Dumbledore's trust in deliberately letting this secret out?
Was it Snape's job to address this issue of Remus and future dangers, or was this the Headmaster's responsibility?
And again, if there was no possible imminent or even future danger of exposure to a transformed werewolf - what exactly - at that particular moment in time - could Snape have possibly been saving the Slytherins from? :huh:


My answers:

1) I'd say no, for two reasons. First, because Snape revealed the information first to Fudge, in a hot pursuit type of situation where Lupin could have been a threat to others. And second, because I don't think Snape's promise in school was forever, regardless of Lupin's hypothetical future actions. Lupin and the Marauders surely have some reciprocal responsibility to keep their own secret, after abusing it to nearly kill schoolboy!Snape. Lupin's and actions in PoA were such that, if Snape had never known what he was before, Snape would have discovered it for himself if he had stopped by Lupin's office that night for some reason other than delivering the potion.

2) It is his responsibility, what the Hogwarts org chart and employee handbook has to say about it does not matter to me. That no one else did, means to me only that they either lacked Snape's backbone, or harbored fewer misgivings about the matter than Snape did. If he seriously believed Snape overstepped his authority in this, I expect Albus would have expressed a regret about it to Lupin. But if you grant Lupin had already resigned and Snape knew it, I don't understand why you ask the question. His job description is merely irrelevant. Lupin is not an employee of the school and Snape had no (professional) obligation to him.

3) If Lupin had already resigned, and Snape knew it, then he would have been simply explaining the events of the night to his students. I do not agree that Snape has no right to share with whomever he chooses, events in which he was involved the previous night.

What secrets were those?

I believe SIP means something we learned in HBP - that Remus was acting as a spy for the Order among the werewolves.

Of course, some things won't necessarily seem different because Snape has flaws and is prone to them like anyone else. Understanding a person's intentions make a huge difference for me. In the instance you provided it changed a cold-blooded murder into a mercy killing where Snape was fulfilling the wishes of a dying man. Intentions are what drives a person toward action, what motivates them, what they hope to achieve, what feelings they are acting on, etc

Precisely, I agree. And I think that is what distinguishes Snape killing Dumbledore from his behavior in the shack. His intent was good when he killed Dumbledore, but it was wrongful in the shack. The focus gets skewed because on the one hand, Sirius was a wanted murderer. But if you have a wanted murderer helpless and at wand point, and he and four others are telling you that you are mistaken, then that changes the scenario and calls Snape's "intent" into question.

Lupin's final words before Snape bound his mouth: "you fool, is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?" Snape's response to Hermione was to basically shut up before she could finish. Snape held a wand to Sirius' throat - and Sirius conceded completely saying that if Snape ensured the rat came, he'd go quietly to the castle. Snape's response that he was taking Sirius to be kissed. Snape even considered Dumbledore, and remarked basically that Dumbledore's face would be full of egg because he'd been wrong about the "tame werewolf". And then Harry grew excessively arrogant - which granted, likely reminded Snape of James - and he basically was going to single handedly put a stop to Snape's progress. Snape responded by threatening to move him if he didn't move himself. And it was only then that he got the triple dose of expelliarimus.

I think there are substantial events in just what I have written above to show that Snape's "intent" was not on justice and fairness. And I have left a whole lot out, because although he wouldn't listen, he wasn't above talking for quite sometime in order to disparage as many people as possible, imo. He spoke for nearly 2 pages, and "caps" were utilized. So between his negative comments - which he took his precious time in making - and his unwillingness to listen - I felt that Snape was shown to be avoiding the truth and focusing on his unfair and injust judgment, holding onto it with dear life in order to get his revenge on Sirius and Lupin at all costs, and see Dumbledore with egg on his face. To me, that is not good "intent". And Snape behaving in a self-righteous manner was made all the worse I feel, because of all the people in the room, it was Snape together with Peter who were the only guilty parties in the deaths of the Potters...and both of them got away with it. Peter by escaping and Snape by not coming clean and blaming everyone else from Dumbledore to the victims.

Yes, he could have outed Remus at school - in direct violation of Dumbledore's order, I might add. He was sworn to secrecy. However, that didn't stop him from expressing his views to Lily before hand, nor did it stop him from trying to get her to believe him either.

I have to say...schoolboys are not obligated to keep others' secrets merely because their Headmasters want them to. I really wish we knew why Snape agreed.

That said, however, one cannot fault him for trying to get someone to believe the secret before he ever agreed to. And I personally was quite impressed with Sev's restraint afterwards. He could have flat-out told Lily, when she referred to the "something" Sev encountered down under the Willow. Presumably, she would have believed a flat assertion of fact about what it was that he encountered.

See, we know he killed Dumbledore - we witnessed it and via the Hallows we understand there was a pact between Severus and Dumbledore and that it was a 'mercy killing' and that Dumbledore was already 'dying'. But it doesn't change the fact that Severus Snape used one of the three Unforgivables on Dumbledore and killed him. Understanding to me doesn't "change" the actions, just the motivations. It allows one to attain forgiveness for the prior acts they committed, but it doesn't wipe away the act itself.

It does not change facts, sure...but did you really have to forgive Snape for the killing of Albus, after you read dh? I guess I see the world differently, in that case. Forgiveness is for the guilty. Had I believed there was something for me to forgive in that scene pre-DH (as it happens, I did not), I would consider myself to have been in the wrong now that I know the real story. That killing was not, as I see it, something to forgive, but an act of heroism - something to admire.

This is not to say Snape does not have things for which he does need forgiveness (notably, becoming a Death Eater and specific things he may have done as one), but that's just not one of them. And I do forgive him, not because what I have learned of his motives changes my view of them (it doesn't, his motives appear not to have been ones I would approve of), but because I see plenty of evidence that he himself deeply regrets those actions and has worked to atone for them.

I agree, and I often wonder what it took for Snape not to act against Wormtail as he lived in his home at Spinner's End. All of the nasty evil things that he could have done to seek vengeance for Lily, yet didn't. :huh:

They weren't exactly best buddies. :lol: But I think, also, that Snape is a passionate person underneath the cold exterior, and what we saw of him in the climax of PoA was him acting, not only with good reason to hate Sirius, but also acting in the heat of the moment, when Snape believed Sirius was about to compound his crimes by threatening Harry. Thus, I can believe him capable of the restraint he shows regarding Peter, because Peter is no immediate threat to anyone, and because Snape has had time to cool off.

Lupin had already showed that he had again forgotten the danger he represented at that time and he did not stay on the in Shack to transform safely. I think Snape was justified in making sure he would not come to teach at Hogwarts in some other capacity later on IMO.

And, looking at it from Snape's point of view, there was an earlier incident that may have been acting on Snape's nerves to controbute to his sense that Lupin was not reliable in keeping himself safe. We saw one instance in which Snape brought Harry the potion, and Lupin refused to drinnk it in his presence. We the readers know he drank it as soon as Snape had left, but Snape probably stressed about it until that month's transformation was past, and it helped to create in Snape's mind an image of someone who is cavalier and disregarding about managing the threat he poses to others.

ETA: There is also Lupin's involvement in the Prank to consider, as further evidence Snape has available to believe Lupin does not take his affliction and the dangers it poses seriously enough. WHo told Sirius how to get under the Willow?

1) I'd say no, for two reasons. First, because Snape revealed the information first to Fudge, in a hot pursuit type of situation where Lupin could have been a threat to others. And second, because I don't think Snape's promise in school was forever, regardless of Lupin's hypothetical future actions. Lupin and the Marauders surely have some reciprocal responsibility to keep their own secret, after abusing it to nearly kill schoolboy!Snape. Lupin's and actions in PoA were such that, if Snape had never known what he was before, Snape would have discovered it for himself if he had stopped by Lupin's office that night for some reason other than delivering the potion.NO? Really? I disagree.

How does any of the above touch upon Dumbledore requiring the staff to keep Lupin's secret from the student body during that single school year? All complied, even Snape.

Then, suddenly, after Black escaped - despite the fact that Lupin's secret was still being kept by the faculty and that there was no current or future danger to the student body - Snape is now non-compliant with keeping the secret.

How is that not a betrayal of Dumbledore's trust? Did Snape let the secret out? Yep! Did he first consult Dumbledore on this issue that morning? :no: Not that we're aware.

I'm sorry, if you're keeping a secret then to let it out without first consulting the person for whom you're keeping it, you've betrayed their trust. Just as the secret keeper Peter betrayed the Potters trust. IMO.


2) It is his responsibility, what the Hogwarts org chart and employee handbook has to say about it does not matter to me. That no one else did, means to me only that they either lacked Snape's backbone, or harbored fewer misgivings about the matter than Snape did. If he seriously believed Snape overstepped his authority in this, I expect Albus would have expressed a regret about it to Lupin. But if you grant Lupin had already resigned and Snape knew it, I don't understand why you ask the question. His job description is merely irrelevant. Lupin is not an employee of the school and Snape had no (professional) obligation to him.It's the intent behind the act that I'm trying to get at Z! :lol:

So, whenever the faculty feels like they can oh, just sweep aside the Headmaster's orders, edicts, assignments - and do as they please? Like they did, say, in the Chamber of Secrets? Well, we do see some edicts being violated there, such as the allowance of Harry/Ron to slip off to hospital wing unescorted. McGonagall did that. Or the allowance of an entire class to walk unescorted to Herbology so a teacher could do his hair {presumably}. Lockhart.

However, the point is, each had a reason behind their acts. McGonagall was soft-hearted and foolish, being overly sympathetic to Harry/Ron, IMO. Lockhart was self-involved, uncaring of the students and more frightened for himself, and most definitely foolish! Snape was....? Spiteful, IMO. His info didn't protect the students from the future potential of facing a transformed werewolf on grounds. That potential had passed already and by the time it returned no students would be at school and frankly there are many more students than "just Slytherins".

I can't even agree that he was doing it to explain a resignation because if he didn't know that Remus had resigned, then he can't have done it for that purpose either. We don't honestly know if he did/didn't know at this point.

Did he do in hopes that Lupin would resign voluntarily? Possibly. Did he do it in hopes that the uproar would be so great that Dumbledore would have no choice but to give Remus his walking papers? Possibly. Did he actually express his displeasure to Dumbledore and when Dumbledore failed to act take matters into his own hands? Possibly. Did he not even give the Headmaster the chance to address the matter properly before he spilled the beans? Possibly. Was he doing it because he felt Lupin and Black were in cahoots? Possibly. Did he do it in a childish attempt to get back at Remus? Possibly. Did he do it because he was no longer gonna receive a Merlin, First Class....okay, well here I've got say: Hardly! :lol: The amount of brave things that Snape did with little to no acknowledgement just totally wipes that possibility from my mind, though others might disagree.

Yet again, that gets us no closer to Snape's motivation - his real reason - for his act of betraying the secret.

I feel that if he were acting with true concern, wariness, and care for the students, then it should have been shown he'd done so on behalf of "all" of the students of Hogwarts. We don't get to see that though. I feel that if he were acting because the Headmaster had failed to do so, we should have seen this too. We didn't. :shrug:

I respect your view, but I don't follow. If Snape thought Lupin was in cahoots with the murderer of Lily, why wouldn't he want revenge on him too?

I believe he knew by the following morning, that Lupin was not in league with Sirius. If he still believed that - his outing of Lupin was even more justifiable, to me!

I believe he knew by the following morning, that Lupin was not in league with Sirius. If he still believed that - his outing of Lupin was even more justifiable, to me!

I agree - but I was referring to the night before in the shack. JKR should have made this simpler and played it all out in one location at the same time of day! :lol:.

Well that is why I said: "Certainly a person can reap without sowing anything at all. That is life." Harry did the right thing all around in terms of Peter. He heard him out and he ensured the man would get due process back at the castle. But the man had already admitted his guilt, so it was really academic.

Snape would have, in my opinion, likewise have adhered to due process. He had no obligation to listen, nor was he invited to do so in the same terms in which Harry was. It was likewise academic, for the evidence against Sirius was overwhelming and accepted by everyone.

Let me ask you, I know I've asked before but they never seem to get answered, so I'll try one last time:


Do you feel that Snape violated Dumbledore's trust in deliberately letting this secret out?
Was it Snape's job to address this issue of Remus and future dangers, or was this the Headmaster's responsibility?
And again, if there was no possible imminent or even future danger of exposure to a transformed werewolf - what exactly - at that particular moment in time - could Snape have possibly been saving the Slytherins from? :huh:


Well actually I did answer question 2 on your list yesterday :)

As head of house it was, I would have thought, his duty to ensure the safety of Slytherin students. Added to which he had warned Dumbledore for some considerable time that Lupin was aiding Black and Dumbledore had not listened, Dumbledore continued to ignore these warning even after Severus was proved correct. If a he continually refused to ensure the safety of students, as I think Severus saw it, then I would say he had reason to take matters into his own hands as long as he did not break the law.

As for the others - here you go :)

1) I honestly couldn't say one way or the other, to me it depends on how you choose to look at it. From some perspectives 'Yes', from other 'No' - However that doesn't mean that he necessarily did the wrong thing
I'd also ask did Dumbledore violate the trust he is charged with as Headmaster? I think there is a much more simple answer to that - 'Yes, he did' and I believe that addressing this continual refusal to honour this trust was something Severus was addressing.

3) Well, we disagree about there being an imminent threat to students but for the sake of argument I will go along with your theory that Lupin resigned before Severus let slip his 'secret' - even thought I still don't agree with it.
It seems incredibly unlikely to me that Severus would have known that Lupin had already resigned when he talked to the Slytherin students – so his having already resigned is somewhat irrelevant imo.
It seems to me that his being a werewolf was not the only threat that Lupin posed in Severus opinion - he had seen proof that he was indeed aiding Black - who I believe Severus still very much believed was the mass murder he was convicted as.

It does not change facts, sure...but did you really have to forgive Snape for the killing of Albus, after you read dh?I feel that Harry needed to see everything in regards to the bargain and death of Albus Dumbledore. That seeing, IMO, leads Harry to 'understand' and 'forgive' Snape for the killing of Albus Dumbledore. My reasoning is this: from the point of view of Harry, if he'd never viewed and understood, could he have ever forgiven this murderous act and let go of the blame towards Snape? The answer, to me, is quite simply no. So yes, the act of killing Dumbledore, merciful and pre-planned though it was, did require a 'show & tell' in order to achieve forgiveness, IMO.

I knew I'd forgotten something! I was pretty much going to say all this except the every probably would all be yes :D

Did he do in hopes that Lupin would resign voluntarily? Possibly. Did he do it in hopes that the uproar would be so great that Dumbledore would have no choice but to give Remus his walking papers? Possibly. Did he actually express his displeasure to Dumbledore and when Dumbledore failed to act take matters into his own hands? Possibly. Did he not even give the Headmaster the chance to address the matter properly before he spilled the beans? Possibly. Was he doing it because he felt Lupin and Black were in cahoots? Possibly. Did he do it in a childish attempt to get back at Remus? Possibly. Did he do it because he was no longer gonna receive a Merlin, First Class....okay, well here I've got say: Hardly! :lol: The amount of brave things that Snape did with little to no acknowledgement just totally wipes that possibility from my mind, though others might disagree.

I'd also ask did Dumbledore violate the trust he is charged with as Headmaster? I think there is a much more simple answer to that - 'Yes, he did' and I believe that addressing this continual refusal to honour this trust was something Severus was addressing.Dumbledore was Dumbledore and he did many things that people disagreed with, both in characters and readers of the books! :lol:

Yet, I don't believe that Severus was addressing any such thing to Dumbledore. Obviously Snape didn't like or trust Remus and had expressed that to Dumbledore - he knew of the prior friendship, he knew of the lycanthropy. Yet Snape trusted Dumbledore, so despite misgivings and concerns, he - just as all the other faculty - kept the secret.

Until after this incident. It was the Headmaster's duty to address a faculty issue, not Snape's. The only time we ever see it not be the Headmaster's duty to address a faculty issue is when the Ministry steps in and starts interfering at Hogwarts via Umbridge.

It seems incredibly unlikely to me that Severus would have known that Lupin had already resigned when he talked to the Slytherin students – so his having already resigned is somewhat irrelevant imo.How is it irrelevant? Even had Snape been explaining a simple resignation, Snape "outed" Remus, an act that was deleterious to Remus's future and to how Remus was percieved by the wizarding society.

If most, if not all, the parents who'd sent their children to Hogwarts had been aware Remus was a werewolf - rather than shocked and outraged by the sudden discovery of it at the end of the school year, well, then I might have a different opinion. Yet, apparently none knew Remus was a werewolf, and their reactions and prejudices would have/and did IMO have serious consequences. Not the least of which, was Umbridge passing stiffer laws against werewolves and what, if any jobs, they can hold.

So to me, it's not irrelevant at all. Snape's actions did have consequences. Did he think about those when it happened? Perhaps, but I seriously doubt it, nor do I think it would have greatly concerned him if it had.
It seems to me that his being a werewolf was not the only threat that Lupin posed in Severus opinion - he had seen proof that he was indeed aiding Black - who I believe Severus still very much believed was the mass murder he was convicted as.To me, that's all the more reason to keep him close, so that he could keep an eye on him and see if he could capture Black.

I knew I'd forgotten something! I was pretty much going to say all this except the every probably would all be yes :lol: Yeah, I know. See it's not that I haven't weighed all of those possibilities and probably forgot a few others...it's that I'm trying to get to his intent behind the act itself. Though honestly, we'll probably never know.

How does any of the above touch upon Dumbledore requiring the staff to keep Lupin's secret from the student body during that single school year? All complied, even Snape.

When did we learn Albus gave such an order, and that Snape explicitly agreed to it (rather than merely complyingn with it)?

At any rate, granting you this point for the sake of argument, I would use the same reasoning as before. Lupin needs to keep his own secret. Yet, Snape would have learned it if he had stopped by Lupin's office for any other reason, that night. He did not need to have been told by Albus, or to have discovered it as a schoolboy, to know it when he told it to the Slytherins. And some innocent third party could have learned the secret too, in the least pleasant way conceivable, because of Lupin's own actions.

I'm sorry, if you're keeping a secret then to let it out without first consulting the person for whom you're keeping it, you've betrayed their trust. Just as the secret keeper Peter betrayed the Potters trust. IMO.

Not if someone beats you to it, as I see it. :)

So, whenever the faculty feels like they can oh, just sweep aside the Headmaster's orders, edicts, assignments - and do as they please?

Not if they want to keep their jobs.

That potential had passed already and by the time it returned no students would be at school and frankly there are many more students than "just Slytherins".

Snape did not ask the Slytherins to keep the secret - I think everyone knew, by the time school was out. But as Head of Slytherin, it would make sense for him to explain it to those students rather than getting up and making an announcement at breakfast. :lol:

I can't even agree that he was doing it to explain a resignation because if he didn't know that Remus had resigned, then he can't have done it for that purpose either. We don't honestly know if he did/didn't know at this point.

Right, so we can just consider it both ways. If he did not know, it may have been a move designed to force Lupin's resignation. That would mean that, as an employee, Snape would have been taking a greater risk of angering his organizational superior Dumbledore. You think he would take that risk for spite, I think he would do that to ensure Lupin did not return for a second year.

Or, he did know Lupin had resigned. You say he still told students out of spite; I say he scotched some wild rumors Draco was spreading about him with the truth.

Did he actually express his displeasure to Dumbledore and when Dumbledore failed to act take matters into his own hands? Possibly.

Aha, good point. It is also possible he went and announced his intention to Albus, and Albus shrugged his shoulders and said "Suit yourself", before summoning Lupin to give Lupin a chance to resign voluntarily.

I feel that if he were acting with true concern, wariness, and care for the students, then it should have been shown he'd done so on behalf of "all" of the students of Hogwarts.

We have been shown he possesses such true concern, wariness, and care for "all" the students, however. So that explanation is on the table. (Along with spite. We have been shown he is capable of that as well. I just find that the most obviously spiteful actions by him tended to be about small matters. Sirius is rude? Snape will be rude right back at him! Harry sneaks into his Pensieve? He will give Harry a zero when the occasion presents itself! e. g. So to me the business of Lupin's secret, does not jive with the sort of spiteful action I would expect of Snape.)

Snape did not explain himself in great and gory detail to Harry in DH. There are fondly held beliefs of Harry's and incidents in several books, that Snape never addresses. No memory of The Prince's Tale shows what Snape did on Sirius's behalf in OotP, for example. But we are not forced thereby to conclude that Snape must have tried to get him killed, just as Harry believed in HBP. I think Harry changed his mind on this one, and the risk Snape took for Lupin in the Seven Potters raid is what mikght have convinced him.

I agree - but I was referring to the night before in the shack. JKR should have made this simpler and played it all out in one location at the same time of day! :lol:.


In the Shack, Lupin was strictly an annoyance and secondary consideration, I would say. If you want to call it revenge for helping Sirius, I will not argue, though I'd say prevention would be a better word. Lupin's presumed sins were in the present, not the past.

Snape would have, in my opinion, likewise have adhered to due process. He had no obligation to listen, nor was he invited to do so in the same terms in which Harry was. It was likewise academic, for the evidence against Sirius was overwhelming and accepted by everyone.

Well an important part is the right to be heard. Snape declared that his intent was to have Lupin and Sirius kissed - without hearing them out (POA - Servant of LV). That is not due process. :lol:. Sirius had never been heard (not Snape's fault) - but the point is, he was asserting his right in that moment and Snape was denying it. Snape had no right to deny it, he had no legal authority. Lupin wasn't wanted at all, had had no hearing or trial, and Snape would not allow him to be heard either. So in the case of Lupin, it was a complete abridgment of his rights.

I agree Snape had no obligation to listen, but he had no right to play judge and jury - even if he had listened because Sirius was insisting on his innocence (distinguished from Peter where Lupin and Sirius would still be murderers and wrong, but Peter had admitted his guilt and would likely be killed/kissed anyway - not removing his killers from guilt, they take revenge, they are murderers no matter what - but no injustice or unfairness to Peter would have resulted.) Snape's obligation to Sirius was to allow him to be heard by the proper authorities because he asserted the right. Snape had no basis for tying Lupin up and carrying him to justice at all - but if that is what he had stated his plan was, then I would have no problem with it and I doubt those in authority would either. The problem was Snape declaring that he was going to take the law in his own hands. Snape himself stated that, in canon (POA, Servant of LV).

It is like when Snape went pleading to Dumbledore as a Death Eater. Dumbledore could have killed him - but if Snape was declaring that he needed to be heard out because he had facts that would help his case, then Dumbledore would have been wrong and nothing short of a murderer for killing Snape without taking him to the proper authorities to be heard. That is the case with Snape - he would have been a murderer, twice over, by and through his stated intent (and he supplied the motive as well, 'revenge'). That was unfair and unjust and why he had to be stopped.

In the Shack, Lupin was strictly an annoyance and secondary consideration, I would say. If you want to call it revenge for helping Sirius, I will not argue, though I'd say prevention would be a better word. Lupin's presumed sins were in the present, not the past.

In as far as Lupin is concerned, I would not argue that point either. Snape said: "I've told the Headmaster again and again that you've been helping your old friend Black into the casle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not even I dreamed you would hav the nerve to use this old place as your hideout-"

Lupin responded: "Severus, you're making a mistake, said Lupin urgently. "you haven't heard everything - I can explain - Sirius is not here to kill Harry-"

Snape responds: 'Two more for Azkaban tonight,' said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically: "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this...he was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin...a tame werewolf..."

****

So I would agree that it was the "present" that was of concern to Snape. But also the "past" - as he stated - he was sure Lupin would be helping his old friend kill Harry. Why was Snape sure? Because of the "past". So to me that indicates that his revenge was based on the past and the present against Lupin. But in the "present" it was more in the light of vindication and leaving Dumbledore with egg on his face because Snape had been right all along. But his initial suspicion of Lupin was totally based on the past - and that is where the majority of his vengeful feelings would lie toward Lupin, imo.

When it came to raw emotion, Lupin had gotten over the past. But Sirius had not and he wanted revenge against Snape just the same as Snape wanted it against him. But that is less to the point because it was Snape who was initially in control.

Please! One missed draft in a years' time in the frantic rush to save the lives of three children does not make anyone repetitively forgetful.
Well one missed draft is enough when you are a werewolf. And while he would have wanted to save Harry and the others perhaps he should have considered that he wasn't the best person to go to their rescue. I know it's a difficult call, but it wouldn't have been so difficult if he had taken his potion.

Accidentally on purpose? Well, I've heard it all now.
I think what SIP was implying was that Snape considered Lupin to be helping Black and that he had deliberately not taken his potion for some nefarious purpose. Obviously Snape was wrong but I think it was a fair assumption to make.


Snape declared that his intent was to have Lupin and Sirius kissed - without hearing them out (POA - Servant of LV). I think 'declared his intent was to have Lupin and Siriu kissed' is stretching it. As I have said, Snape's actual words could barely be considered a threat yet alone a statement of intent.

The problem was Snape declaring that he was going to take the law in his own hands. Snape himself stated that, in canon (POA, Servant of LV).Snape did not declare that he was going to take in the law into his own hands - nor did he say he was going to have Lupin kissed - his words were "perhaps they will have a kiss for you too" that is not a statement of intent. Even if he had made a more direct threat such as "I'll see to it that you are kissed as well" that does not necessarily mean that he would have gone through with it. But as I say Snape did not make a direct threat.

I think what SIP was implying was that Snape considered Lupin to be helping Black and that he had deliberately not taken his potion for some nefarious purpose. Obviously Snape was wrong but I think it was a fair assumption to make.

I respect your opinion, but Snape never mentioned the potion in that light, or actually, anything about the potion at all except that Lupin forgot to take it and that is why he was in his office. Which of course begs the question why he allowed his eyes to rove over Lupin's desk and private things while he was there - sounds like what Harry did to him down the line. Curiosity got the best of him, just as it did Harry. I have never thought about that before, but it is pretty funny actually.

Nonetheless, someone came up with the idea that Snape was thinking about the safety of the children - because neither Snape, nor anyone in canon ever mentions such a thing. He'd tried to expose Lupin earlier with his classroom teaching of DADA, and that was the same reason he tried to expose him in the shack - Black related. And at the end, when there was no children to keep safe, for him to start thinking about it makes no sense to me. :huh:

Lupin needs to keep his own secret.Lupin was keeping his own secret, else the students and parents would have known about the previous night without being told. I remember too, this wasn't the first time that Snape had tried to let the secret "slip". The werewolf assignment in Defense class.

Snape is the only one of the faculty to "accidentally on purpose" let slip this secret and only after Black's escape.
Not if someone beats you to it, as I see it.:huh: Not following here. The secret was kept, and kept well. Until Snape's loose lips sunk the ship. :shrug:
Not if they want to keep their jobs.But we know they did, and Snape did, and others did...like Slughorn and the ban on Horcruxes (course, Dumbledore was the Transfiguration teacher at the time, possible Deputy Headmaster, seeing as he did succeed Dippet). Who lost their jobs for violating orders/edicts? :lol:

Well one missed draft is enough when you are a werewolf. And while he would have wanted to save Harry and the others perhaps he should have considered that he wasn't the best person to go to their rescue. I know it's a difficult call, but it wouldn't have been so difficult if he had taken his potion.See, I disagree. I feel that if Snape hadn't brought that potion to Lupin, but just showed up to discuss a student or a faculty matter or whatever, I feel that if they'd both witnessed the action on that map that neither Snape nor Lupin would have remembered that potion, much less wasted time fetching or swallowing it. Nor do I feel that Snape would have said, you go take your potion and then alert Dumbledore.

Each are 'possible' scenarios, yet to me are also highly unlikely scenarios. Again, thoughtless is as high as I can go on the blame meter. :lol:
I think what SIP was implying was that Snape considered Lupin to be helping Black and that he had deliberately not taken his potion for some nefarious purpose. Obviously Snape was wrong but I think it was a fair assumption to make.This though assumes that Remus knew unequivically that Severus was bringing that potion along. Frankly, if that were so, he'd not have left that Map behind, IMO. Planning is planning, after all.

Curiosity got the best of him, just as it did Harry. I have never thought about that before, but it is pretty funny actually. :wow: Hmm. Well, yeah, I suppose. However Snape would have had prior knowledge of seeing that parchment, just not working as it should. But then, Harry'd also had prior knowledge of seeing the Pensieve at work, just not knowing exactly what memory Snape had deposited.

Odd, I've never really thought of that either.

Nonetheless, someone came up with the idea that Snape was thinking about the safety of the children - because neither Snape, nor anyone in canon ever mentions such a thing.Sure they do. In the pact between Albus and Severus, the concern of the students of Hogwarts is mentioned and agreed upon by the two.

But it doesn't change the fact that Severus Snape used one of the three Unforgivables on Dumbledore and killed him. Understanding to me doesn't "change" the actions, just the motivations. It allows one to attain forgiveness for the prior acts they committed, but it doesn't wipe away the act itself. That goes towards Dumbledore and others in the series too, not just Snape. Just my opinion. :shrug:
:huh:

I think it is the motivations or intent which differentiates the actions as good, bad and ugly. The acts themselves are an outward manifestations of such intent. Acts may be similar, but I think what seperates similar actions is the motivation and intent, which IMO changes the nature of the act.

I agree, and I often wonder what it took for Snape not to act against Wormtail as he lived in his home at Spinner's End. All of the nasty evil things that he could have done to seek vengeance for Lily, yet didn't.

The bigger picture IMO. He had to keep his role as spy and for that if he needed to look at Pettigrew and not kill him, Snape was willing to do that. Plus what zg said. :)

So we shall continue to :rockon:

The question wasn't did this incident cause Dumbledore to stop trusting Snape, it was: Did Snape violate Dumbledore's trust in regards to this secret? :)

No again. :) Because Snape as a teacher has some rights too and he can exercise them as a professor when he feels his students are threatened by certain things.

See, Dumbledore entrusted his staff - all of them - with this secret. Who, of the staff, violated that trust and deliberately let the secret out irrespective of Dumbledore's trust and confidence? Snape. Oh, and Hagrid too, I suppose, though only after Snape had already done so.
Well, Dumbledore was certainly no Voldemort, unquestioning loyalty or death! :lol:

Yes; Dumbledore trusted his staff with this secret; but I think every secret has rule and a line which should not be crossed.

Here Lupin's secret was to remain a secret for as long as the secret itself reamined what it was; a secret which no one would ever know, because no one would ever be touched by it.

But that did not happen and when a line is crossed whereby the secret becomes a danger not only to the person whose secret it is, but also to others who should have never been affected by this secret in the first place, then Snape IMO has a duty as the teacher to ensure his students stay safe from that secret.

What is what he did IMO.

I completely disagree that Snape was taking a stance on behalf of his students, because quite frankly "his students" encompassed the student body of every House at Hogwarts and not just the Slytherins. If he had been taking a stance then IMO he should have done it months and months ago, not to mention he should absolutely have been sure to have included all of the students of Hogwarts - most especially those of Gryffindor House, who seemed to have a particular liking for this particular Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. But Snape didn't do that. Not at all.

He did take a stance months and months ago; he was more than vehamently against Lupin takeing up a job in Hogwarts, because he believed Lupin would place more importance on his friendship than help catch Black if he came to Hogwarts. We saw that's exactly what happened.

But Snape also gave Lupin a chance, which probably was because of Dumbledore. He did not out Lupin, untl Lupin proved he could be careless IMO.

I certainly respect Z's opinion and even answered on the other thread, however, again, this does not answer the question IMO as there was and would be "No" so-called "later on". Yes, Remus failed to take the potion one night out of the week, first time the entire year - and it was not an intentional slip - but rather an all to understandable leap into action for real danger to three students.

Well snape would not know there would be no later on. Lupin may not come as DADA teacher, but he could come and teach something else; I think that is what Snape wanted to avoid.

posted by zgirnius
And, looking at it from Snape's point of view, there was an earlier incident that may have been acting on Snape's nerves to controbute to his sense that Lupin was not reliable in keeping himself safe. We saw one instance in which Snape brought Harry the potion, and Lupin refused to drinnk it in his presence. We the readers know he drank it as soon as Snape had left, but Snape probably stressed about it until that month's transformation was past, and it helped to create in Snape's mind an image of someone who is cavalier and disregarding about managing the threat he poses to others.

:agree:

ETA: There is also Lupin's involvement in the Prank to consider, as further evidence Snape has available to believe Lupin does not take his affliction and the dangers it poses seriously enough. WHo told Sirius how to get under the Willow?

Lupin IMO. :D

I'm not sure if this has been brought up because some of these posts are too long to read, but I find it quite funny that wwb is complaining about Snape wanting to drag Lupin up to the castle like "trash" when Sirius had Snape hitting his head on the tunnel's ceiling without any care at all.

Edit: I removed part of my comment and will put it in the Lupin thread.

Okay guys, that's enough with Remus in here; let's move the 'he-should/he-shouldn't" discussion to Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107895) and focus on Snape here.

The bigger picture IMO. He had to keep his role as spy and for that if he needed to look at Pettigrew and not kill him, Snape was willing to do that. Plus what zg said. :)

Yeah but that was different because Snape was frightened of wormtail.

No again. :) Because Snape as a teacher has some rights too and he can exercise them as a professor when he feels his students are threatened by certain things.

I think this is just an agree to disagree issue. I feel Snape was just behaving in a vindictive and cruel manner as he often did, in particularly with the DADA professors because in general, Snape was jealous of all of the DADA professors over the years, so this was not really something new.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up because some of these posts are too long to read, but I find it quite funny that wwb is complaining about Snape wanting to drag Lupin up to the castle like "trash" when Sirius had Snape hitting his head on the tunnel's ceiling without any care at all.

Well to me dragging and floating is distinct and the reason that everyone was negligent of Snape was because of the manner in which he was behaving previously, imo. :)

Yeah but that was different because Snape was frightened of wormtail.

I do not understand. How did you conclude Snape was scared of Wormtail? From which part in canon?

Well to me dragging and floating is distinct and the reason that everyone was negligent of Snape was because of the manner in which he was behaving previously, imo. :)

It was not floating; it was bumping Snape's head at every step on the low ceiling. I think that makes it different from just floating.

I do not understand. How did you conclude Snape was scared of Wormtail? From which part in canon?

Well Peter had proven himself to be a dangerous individual - willing to take extreme risks for little to no material gain - everyone around him had to watch their backs. If he'd betray his friends, he'd certainly have no problem betraying his enemies, imo.

It was not floating; it was bumping Snape's head at every step on the low ceiling. I think that makes it different from just floating.

Well I was speaking of the intent to float rather than the intent to drag. Harry was the one to notice the head bumping and he didn't say anything. But I was not talking about what happened to Snape (he was unconscious at the time and I doubt he even knew about it.) So I was discussing Snape's conscious decisions of intent. In my view, Snape held prejudices against various sentients and it was something he had to work on as a part of his rehabilitation.

Well Peter had proven himself to be a dangerous individual - willing to take extreme risks for little to no material gain - everyone around him had to watch their backs. If he'd betray his friends, he'd certainly have no problem betraying his enemies, imo.

Is that why he's serving wine to Snarks and the ladies? :lol:

"Wormtail will get us drinks, if you'd like them," said Snape. "And then he will return to his bedroom."
Wormtail winced as though Snape had thrown something at him.
"I am not your servant!" he squeaked, avoiding Snape's eye.
"Really? I was under the impression that the Dark Lord placed you here to assist me."
"To assist, yes--but not to make you drinks and--and clean your house!"
"I had no idea, Wormtail, that you were craving more dangerous assignments," said Snape silkily. "This can be easily arranged: I shall speak to the Dark Lord--"
Wormtail hesitated for a moment, looking as though he might argue, but then turned and headed through a second hidden door. They heard banging and a clinking of glasses. Within seconds he was back, bearing a dusty bottle and three glasses upon a tray. He dropped these on the rickety table and scurried from their presence, slamming the book-covered door behind him.


Bold mine. It doesn't say "glowered", "glared", "shot daggers" or anything of the sort...

And then there's this little matter of Snape hexing him for eavesdropping later on... ;)

Well Peter had proven himself to be a dangerous individual - willing to take extreme risks for little to no material gain - everyone around him had to watch their backs. If he'd betray his friends, he'd certainly have no problem betraying his enemies, imo.

Snape would be alert with Wormtail, if that were the case. I don't think it would make Snape scared of him. And I also don't think Wormtail took extreme risks. In fact I would say Wormtail took as little risk as possible.

But I was not talking about what happened to Snape (he was unconscious at the time and I doubt he even knew about it.)

I think the fact Snape was unconcious does not make it right for his heaad to bump the ceilings. :shrug:

So I was discussing Snape's conscious decisions of intent. In my view, Snape held prejudices against various sentients and it was something
he had to work on as a part of his rehabilitation.

Concious intent; I believe Snape, at the time we are talking about held no prejudices against anyone. He admonishes Phineas for calling Hermione mudblood, he makes the wolfsbane every month for Remus and he does not care that a centaur (halfbreed) or Hagrid (halfbreed again) are members of the Hogwarts faculty.

Snape was suspicious of Lupin in a particular context and he takes action, when he sees a vital safety code violated IMO.

I really don't think Snape was prejudiced.

Is that why he's serving wine to Snarks and the ladies? :lol:

In my opinion, Snape didn't see it in the way I think you mean. He understood the danger of having Peter close by, imo.

Snape would be alert with Wormtail, if that were the case. I don't think it would make Snape scared of him. And I also don't think Wormtail took extreme risks. In fact I would say Wormtail took as little risk as possible.

Well it is just a matter of perspective. I consider his efforts to revive Voldemort and his spying/betrayal great risks, for little gain. Snape had to be careful that Peter did not discover his true loyalty, plus watch out for whatever Peter might try to do to him - so in my view, he was frightened of Peter - or better said, of what Peter might try to do and what he might discover.

I think the fact Snape was unconcious does not make it right for his heaad to bump the ceilings. :shrug:

I respect your view, but it does not appear to relate to the point I was making. This was just Harry having a bit of revenge, imo.

Concious intent; I believe Snape, at the time we are talking about held no prejudices against anyone. He admonishes Phineas for calling Hermione mudblood,

That was many years later.

he makes the wolfsbane every month for Remus

Because Dumbledore asked him to do it. I think it was evident that it was against Snape's will that Lupin was at the school at all. He didn't wish to support that, imo, but he followed orders nonetheless. Apart from that, I feel there was more than ample evidence to show that Snape felt prejudice toward magical creatures of this kind.

and he does not care that a centaur (halfbreed) or Hagrid (halfbreed again) are members of the Hogwarts faculty.

I respect your view, but there is no canon on this that I recall.

I really don't think Snape was prejudiced.

I do. I feel he held prejudice against muggleborns, muggles, werewolves and likely vampires and centuars because they were all considered "dark and/or dangerous creatures" at one time. Snape got over at least some of his prejudices in the end, imo, but they affected him early on, imo.

Well it is just a matter of perspective. I consider his efforts to revive Voldemort and his spying/betrayal great risks, for little gain. Snape had to be careful that Peter did not discover his true loyalty, plus watch out for whatever Peter might try to do to him - so in my view, he was frightened of Peter - or better said, of what Peter might try to do and what he might discover.

Will answer in the Peter thread. :)

I respect your view, but why would I care about this? It does not appear to relate to the point I was making.

I'm sorry. What was the point you were trying to make. I think I misunderstood.

That was many years later.

Some three years later, yes.

Because Dumbledore asked him to do it. I think it was evident that it was against Snape's will that Lupin was at the school at all. He didn't wish to support that, imo, but he followed orders nonetheless. Apart from that, I feel there was more than ample evidence to show that Snape felt prejudice toward magical creatures of this kind.

Dumbledore had to ask him. Snape was not Lupin's friend, that he would do it on his own. For all Snape knew, Lupin could have made alternate arrangements or Dumbledore could have. But when he was asked to do it, Snape did it month after month, in his free time for a man who was not his friend; for a man who was his enemy IMO.

I respect your view, but there is no canon on this that I recall.

There is no canon Snape was against Hagrid or the centaur Firenze. And adding it to his statements to Phineas, I concluded so.

I do. I feel he held prejudice against muggleborns, muggles, werewolves and likely vampires and centuars because they were all considered "dark creatures" at one time. Snape got over at least some of his prejudices in the end, imo, but they affected him early on, imo.

I don't think there is canon for any of this. From what in canon did you intrepret this?

IBecause Dumbledore asked him to do it. I think it was evident that it was against Snape's will that Lupin was at the school at all. He didn't wish to support that, imo, but he followed orders nonetheless.

I agree that he didn't want Lupin in the school but I think he also wanted the students in the school to be safe. Why do I think that? Because Severus was so careful to make sure Lupin took the potion, when we see him deliver it he reminds Lupin that it must be take while its fresh to be effective. On another occasion we see that he has checked that the potion was taken & finding it had not been took a fresh draft to Lupin. This is more than just preparing the potion imo. He also has more reason than anyone else we know of to be aware of any danger that might be posed by a werewolf - who else in the school has had such a close call with one?

I feel he held prejudice against muggleborns, muggles, werewolves and likely vampires and centuars because they were all considered "dark and/or dangerous creatures" at one time.

Muggleborns, muggles, werewolves, vampires and centuars were all considered dark creatures at one time - I agree that werewolves & vampires are categorised as dark creatures - but I do not recall any cannon that the others were considered to be dark creatures - please could you provide some cannon evidence of this - remembering that there is a difference between dark creatures and creatures/people who are viewed with prejudice :)

Dumbledore had to ask him. Snape was not Lupin's friend, that he would do it on his own. For all Snape knew, Lupin could have made alternate arrangements or Dumbledore could have. But when he was asked to do it, Snape did it month after month, in his free time for a man who was not his friend; for a man who was his enemy IMO.

Right, so my point was it could hardly count as a good will gesture that Snape simply decided to undertake on Lupin's behalf out of the goodness of his heart. :lol:.

There is no canon Snape was against Hagrid or the centaur Firenze. And adding it to his statements to Phineas, I concluded so.

That was 3 years later as you pointed out. So I have no idea about this, there is no canon on it at all to my memory.

I don't think there is canon for any of this. From what in canon did you intrepret this?

Muggleborns - his comment to James that Lily was a filthy little mudblood and Lily's comment to him that he called everyone who was muggleborn that. His decision to work for Voldy who was eradicating Muggles and Muggleborns. His treatment of Petunia and referring to her as beneath his notice and of no worth - twice - because she was just a muggle. His many comments about and treatment of Lupin in terms of his lycanthropy, including calling him a dark creature (akin to a murderer). Vampires were considered in the same boat - also studied in DADA and considered dark creatures. Centaurs were considered dangerous creatures and Umbridge shared with us that some in society were firmly against - and Voldemort was also - and since Snape worked for him in eradicating all who would be against them, I assume he felt the same way. So that is the canon I base all of that on.

I agree that he didn't want Lupin in the school but I think he also wanted the students in the school to be safe. Why do I think that? Because Severus was so careful to make sure Lupin took the potion, when we see him deliver it he reminds Lupin that it must be take while its fresh to be effective. On another occasion we see that he has checked that the potion was taken & finding it had not been took a fresh draft to Lupin. This is more than just preparing the potion imo. He also has more reason than anyone else we know of to be aware of any danger that might be posed by a werewolf - who else in the school has had such a close call with one?

I am not sure how this addresses the point I was making. Whatever Snape's motive may have been, it did not include doing it for Lupin out of the goodness of his heart - that was my only point. :) If the safety of others was his motive, that does not discount his prejudice of werewolves, imo. Snape was just made to prepare and bring Lupin his drinks (much like Peter in HBP), but one doesn't have to like or respect the person to act as a servant to them.

Muggleborns, muggles, werewolves, vampires and centuars were all considered dark creatures at one time - I agree that werewolves & vampires are categorised as dark creatures - but I do not recall any cannon that the others were considered to be dark creatures - please could you provide some cannon evidence of this - remembering that there is a difference between dark creatures and creatures/people who are viewed with prejudice :)

I wrote "dark and/or dangerous creatures". Umbridge relayed to us in OOTP that Centaurs were considered dangerous creatures - at least by some in society.

Right, so my point was it could hardly count as a good will gesture that Snape simply decided to undertake on Lupin's behalf out of the goodness of his heart. :lol:.

But it was a goodwill gesture. An extremely good gesture. Snape on Dumbledore's request agreed to make the potion every month for a man who was his enemy. Snape could have easily refused citing the past enmity and the present suspicion, but he not only makes it, he also brings it to Lupin and like kittling said, makes sure Lupin took it. He was very careful to keep Lupin and the students safe IMO.

That was 3 years later as you pointed out. So I have no idea about this, there is no canon on it at all to my memory.

That one comment was. For the others, I don't think there is canon to say Snape was against Hagrid or Firenze because they were half breeds or considered dark creatures.

Muggleborns - his comment to James that Lily was a filthy little mudblood and Lily's comment to him that he called everyone who was muggleborn that. His decision to work for Voldy who was eradicating Muggles and Muggleborns. His treatment of Petunia and referring to her as beneath his notice and of no worth - twice - because she was just a muggle. His many comments about and treatment of Lupin in terms of his lycanthropy, including calling him a dark creature (akin to a murderer). Vampires were considered in the same boat - also studied in DADA and considered dark creatures. Centaurs were considered dangerous creatures and Umbridge shared with us that some in society were firmly against - and Voldemort was also - and since Snape worked for him in eradicating all who would be against them, I assume he felt the same way. So that is the canon I base all of that on.

We really don't know why Snape joined Voldemort. In canon we only have Snape calling Lily a mudblood, for which he apologises standing at Gryffindor Tower's door.

He disliked Petunia when he was 9, because she disliked him and he also thought her as a muggle like his father.

I don't think we have canon to say exactly why Snape joined Voldemort and whether that reason was his prejudices.

In fact I would say Snape joined Voldemort, because he was not wanted anywhere else. He was in Slytherin and he was ignored by the faculty, like other Slytherins who were on the wall and did not know which way to jump.

While the choices he made are ultimately his, I do think he was pushed into them, by lack of counselling and a lack of alternatives and protection for Slytherins (like Draco got from Dumbledore), along with equal treatment in the School. They got nothing and so people like Snape and Regulus were pulled into it, rather than being dragged out of it IMO.

Muggleborns - his comment to James that Lily was a filthy little mudblood and Lily's comment to him that he called everyone who was muggleborn that. His decision to work for Voldy who was eradicating Muggles and Muggleborns. His treatment of Petunia and referring to her as beneath his notice and of no worth - twice - because she was just a muggle.

These are all comments he made / actins he took before he was 20. The time to which you were referring was well over a decade later. Being of a similar age to Severus I can assure you that he views I held as a child and teenager do not reflect my current views well – a lot has changed! Also in the year I’ve been on this forum I’ve seen you change your views in response to changes in your life (which is complement btw – just in case it might have seemed otherwise to you :))

We have seen that Severus went through serious changes in his twenties and thirties. His life in the 90’s is very different from his time as a Death Eater. Given all this I don’t feel that the examples given above are a good indicator of his views during PoA – you of course are free to disagree :D

I am not sure how this addresses the point I was making. Whatever Snape's motive may have been, it did not include doing it for Lupin out of the goodness of his heart - that was my only point. :)

Fair enough - but I don't understand why he should do it 'for Lupin out of the goodness of his heart'

I wrote "dark and/or dangerous creatures". Umbridge relayed to us in OOTP that Centaurs were considered dangerous creatures - at least by some in society.

Opps :blush: I was not being fair (but by accident I promise :)) on the Centaur front - I still remain confused as to how you apply the "dark and/or dangerous creatures" comment to muggles & muggleborns :hmm:

These are all comments he made / actins he took before he was 20. The time to which you were referring was well over a decade later. Being of a similar age to Severus I can assure you that he views I held as a child and teenager do not reflect my current views well – a lot has changed! Also in the year I’ve been on this forum I’ve seen you change your views in response to changes in your life (which is complement btw – just in case it might have seemed otherwise to you :))

Actually I was speaking about his earlier views. Above I said that his views changed over time, but that these prejudices affected him early on. So that was the period I was referring to when discussing this. And I was including up to and through POA with respect to the dark creatures because that is when he made the comment and likened them to murderers (POA).

We have seen that Severus went through serious changes in his twenties and thirties. His life in the 90’s is very different from his time as a Death Eater. Given all this I don’t feel that the examples given above are a good indicator of his views during PoA – you of course are free to disagree :D

:lol:. Well I was not referring to "all of his views" - just those about dark creatures in POA. However, we got to talking about Snape holding no prejudice at all and I was merely pointing out that when young he had many prejudices that he had to correct during his rehabilitation. But I don't feel they were all corrected at the same time. And I am unsure which ones were corrected and which were not as canon is not clear to me on that point. I can make some assumptions, but they are all based on the final months of his life. At that point he appeared to have come to understand that whether you like Muggleborns or not, you should not show them prejudice outwardly - hence his comment to Sirius' uncle (Can't recall the spelling :lol:). And he tried to save Lupin - which I feel he did because felt responsible for Lupin's situation, but I think if he still considered him a worthless dark creature as he appeared to feel in POA, imo, then he wouldn't have bothered. So that caused me to assume that he'd come to the same realization about werewolves - and I accepted that to mean all presumed 'dark creatures' that actually were not.

Fair enough - but I don't understand why he should do it 'for Lupin out of the goodness of his heart'

Oh, that was never my point. I was merely disputing the notion. I don't see why he would either, that is not Snape's style.

Opps :blush: I was not being fair (but by accident I promise :)) on the Centaur front - I still remain confused as to how you apply the "dark and/or dangerous creatures" comment to muggles & muggleborns :hmm:

Ah - I wasn't. That was when we were discussing prejudice in general. So I named all of those who Snape had shown prejudice toward, imo, in the past. But as I have said, in some cases, there is canon that he may have either overcome it or at least understood it was wrong to outwardly show it.

The problem in this particular thread is that the smallest thing Snape does or says is interpreted by some to mean a variety of changes relative to his point of view, outlook, moral values, ethical values and general truthfulness with respect to his character. On the other hand, when highlighting Snape's interactions with others, the words and actions of those 'others' is not granted the same amount of evidentary weight in terms of point of view, truthfulness, etc., Personally, I will either require definitive and uncontroverted truth and straightforwardness in canon, or I can draw reasonable assumptions. But I refuse to vary the practice from character to character.

But it was a goodwill gesture. An extremely good gesture. Snape on Dumbledore's request agreed to make the potion every month for a man who was his enemy. Snape could have easily refused citing the past enmity and the present suspicion, but he not only makes it, he also brings it to Lupin and like kittling said, makes sure Lupin took it. He was very careful to keep Lupin and the students safe IMO.

I meant out of "the goodness of his heart" - Snape's motive was not that, but rather as you pointed out, something else, like safety or what have you. He wasn't doing it for Lupin.

We really don't know why Snape joined Voldemort. In canon we only have Snape calling Lily a mudblood, for which he apologises standing at Gryffindor Tower's door.

Well as to "why" he joined - that is not important to my point and I respect your view on that. All that matters was that he did join a group that was eradicating Muggles and Muggleborns.

While the choices he made are ultimately his, I do think he was pushed into them, by lack of counselling and a lack of alternatives and protection for Slytherins (like Draco got from Dumbledore), along with equal treatment in the School. They got nothing and so people like Snape and Regulus were pulled into it, rather than being dragged out of it IMO.

I would respectfully disagree because I apply the same reasoning to everyone. I am not going to accuse Sirius of joining the Order because he was pushed into it or forced. It was a choice that he had to risk his life to undertake, so whatever his motive or influence, in the end, he had to make the choice to do it. I feel the same way about Snape.

Wow, this thread was busy over night! :lol:



The only thing I was getting at is simply that "acts" aren't really wiped away, bad behavior isn't erased, seeming hatred isn't excused, bullying of students isn't undone or justifiable, IMO.


Even some actions as a teacher I've looked at from another angle. For instance, when Harry put a firecracker in another students potion. We knew it was a distraction in order to get the Polyjuice ingredients. However, looking again from the teacher's point of view, he found a firecracker in an Engorging Potion which could have seriously hurt (students did get covered in it) someone. If he thought someone (Harry) did that as a Prank, ie funny, I'm not suprised he was angry. I thought he was quite restaint actually. Some of my old teachers in a RL equivalent, would have shouted, or kept the whole class in detention, break and lunch, until the guilty student owned up.

I agree, there were moments when Snape's bitterness or other flaws got the better of him.


I certainly don't hold the mercy killing of Dumbledore against Snape, that was probably one of the hardest things he ever had to do, IMO. This was the only person who knew all of his secrets, a man he seemed to like and respect if the clucking like a mother hen is anything to go by...and yet, he's tasked with ending this relationship with a long time friend and ally, and fated to then basically have no one and nothing from that point forward, except a thankless task and suspicion on all sides.

Agreed. :tu:




It does not change facts, sure...but did you really have to forgive Snape for the killing of Albus, after you read dh? I guess I see the world differently, in that case. Forgiveness is for the guilty. Had I believed there was something for me to forgive in that scene pre-DH (as it happens, I did not), I would consider myself to have been in the wrong now that I know the real story. That killing was not, as I see it, something to forgive, but an act of heroism - something to admire.

Great point. :D It's not just his intention that changed in the face of new information, it's also some reader's understanding of the character. It is that reader who changes, also because we end up re-evaluating our previous thoughts and judgments.



Personally, I will either require definitive and uncontroverted truth and straightforwardness in canon, or I can draw reasonable assumptions. But I refuse to vary the practice from character to character.



You are dealing with an ambiguous character, designed as such by the author, they tend not to be straightforward, hence the mystery surrounding them. :)

Even some actions as a teacher I've looked at from another angle. For instance, when Harry put a firecracker in another students potion. We knew it was a distraction in order to get the Polyjuice ingredients. However, looking again from the teacher's point of view, he found a firecracker in an Engorging Potion which could have seriously hurt (students did get covered in it) someone. If he thought someone (Harry) did that as a Prank, ie funny, I'm not suprised he was angry. I thought he was quite restaint actually. Some of my old teachers in a RL equivalent, would have shouted, or kept the whole class in detention, break and lunch, until the guilty student owned up.

But it was a prank and Harry was wrong to do that for any reason - the one he had notwithstanding. I see no reason why Snape, or any professor, wouldn't reprimand a student who did that, unless it was an accident - which it was not. So I don't really see that aspect of that event as the problem.

Great point. :D It's not just his intention that changed in the face of new information, it's also some readers understanding of the character. It is the reader who changes also because we end up re-evaluating our previous thoughts and judgments.

I respect that view, but I don't feel it is universal. For instance, I felt like Snape was on the good side all along and wondered what he was playing at. The end didn't justify the means though - and so there was no "new information" for me, except pertaining to motive and that justified nothing, imo. I think perhaps if my mind had had to undergo the big change from "evil" to "good", I might see Snape differently. Instead it went from "good - awaiting explanation" to "good - got nonsensical explanation" - :lol: - so that didn't work. I think I would also see Snape distinctly if JKR hadn't gone for redemption - then he would have been an all time great dark grey character. Now I am left envisioning this little squirmy guy - like Mundungus - trying to get redemption on the coattails of another character, without any help from Snape or any help to the reader - just didn't work for me. Mundungus worked better - he was just left up in the air, which is exactly what she should have done with Snape, imo.

But it was a prank and Harry was wrong to do that for any reason - the one he had notwithstanding. I see no reason why Snape, or any professor, wouldn't reprimand a student who did that, unless it was an accident - which it was not. So I don't really see that aspect of that event as the problem.

It was an example I gave, where I have seen a few people still believe Snape was in the wrong and being mean and vindictive towards Harry. It is still possible to read the scene differently, is my point. :)


I respect that view, but I don't feel it is universal.

I was agreeing with zgirnius' thoughts and method of reading the text. I did not say it was a 'universal' one, I said some reader's.


For instance, I felt like Snape was on the good side all along and wondered what he was playing at.The end didn't justify the means though - and so there was no "new information" for me, except pertaining to motive and that justified nothing, imo. I think perhaps if my mind had had to undergo the big change from "evil" to "good", I might see Snape differently. Instead it went from "good - awaiting explanation" to "good - got nonsensical explanation" - :lol: - so that didn't work.

I believed Snape would be 'good', as well. But, we still read the text differently. :)

It was an example I gave, where I have seen some people still believe Snape was in the wrong and being mean and vindictive towards Harry. It is still possible to read the scene differently, is my point.

Yeah, well I would disagree with them. Harry was wrong there. Snape's subsequent behavior was wrongful, but not toward Harry, imo.

You are dealing with an ambiguous character, designed as such by the author, they tend not to be straightforward, hence the mystery surrounding them.

Agreed, but that has no bearing on my method of interpretation. I won't vary it from character to character, showing Snape extreme leniency and requiring more evidence for everyone else. We only had Harry's POV for the most part for all of the characters, so in terms of analysis, I see no reason to expect more from Harry about them than what we got about Snape. In fact, for the most part, we got a lot less for everyone but the trio and Dumbledore.

I was agreeing with zgirnius' thoughts and method of reading the text. I did not say it was a 'universal', I said some reader's.

Yeah, I wasn't charging you with having said so. :lol:, I was just pointing out the other "some readers" view.

I believed Snape would be 'good', as well. But, we still read the text differently. :)

Yeah, well this is the reverse of the above isn't it...I was speaking for myself. I don't know how I'd respond to Snape's character if I had truly believed him evil and then found out he was good. But I do know that good to good didn't work for me. That may be because JKR's idea of good and evil is distinct from mine (as opposed to good and bad) - at least in some instances. For example, Snape's youthful cursing of others and prejudice, and his being a Death Eater, I find all of that evil, but it wouldn't take much at all to convince me that all of that was something of the past - and I believe JKR showed that. But she made him evil in other ways, imo, and in her estimation, I would imagine it wasn't evil because she didn't change those things - and so I presume she didn't feel it was necessary for redemption. But for those who figure it is, it doesn't work. Harry is not God or the Force or a superbeing - so he cannot guide the reader unless the reader allows him to. I think JKR depended far too much on that in terms of Snape, perhaps not realizing that one can revere Harry and still think he is loopy at times.

Agreed, but that has no bearing on my method of interpretation. I won't vary it from character to character, showing Snape extreme leniency and requiring more evidence for everyone else. We only had Harry's POV for the most part for all of the characters, so in terms of analysis, I see no reason to expect more from Harry about them than what we got about Snape. In fact, for the most part, we got a lot less for everyone but the trio and Dumbledore.

I respect the way to wish to read books. :) Having a close 3rd person point of view, is a great way for an author to hide certain information from the reader, or provide misdirection, by giving that character incomplete information, flaws, dislikes, prejudgments and misjudgments. Harry is for example, more willing to listen to someone he likes and not automatically think they're up to something bad or assume the worst of them in general. JKR does this brilliantly with the Harry character. Straight from the beginning in PS/SS, Snape wasn't all he first seemed.


Yeah, I wasn't charging you with having said so. :lol:, I was just pointing out the other "some readers" view.

Oh, okay. :)

I meant out of "the goodness of his heart" - Snape's motive was not that, but rather as you pointed out, something else, like safety or what have you. He wasn't doing it for Lupin.

It was out of the goodness of Snape's heart that he agreed to brew a potion for someone who he did not like, for someone who did not like him, with whom he had a pretty poor past and one he was suspicious at present IMO. The wolfsbane is itself a potion to ensure the safety of a werewolf; so unless Lupin was in a place where he needed to be safe, Snape would not have needed to brew the potion for him IMO.

Well as to "why" he joined - that is not important to my point and I respect your view on that. All that matters was that he did join a group that was eradicating Muggles and Muggleborns.

I was answering your point that said he was prejudiced towards a particular section of the wizazrding society. For that we don't have much canon IMO. For I don't see Snape treating the halfbreeds/dark creatures we see in the book with special contempt, just because they were diffierent IMO.

I would respectfully disagree because I apply the same reasoning to everyone. I am not going to accuse Sirius of joining the Order because he was pushed into it or forced. It was a choice that he had to risk his life to undertake, so whatever his motive or influence, in the end, he had to make the choice to do it. I feel the same way about Snape.

Answered in the Marauder's thread. :)

I respect the way to wish to read books. :) Having a close 3rd person point of view, is a great way for an author to hide certain information from the reader, or provide misdirection, by giving that character incomplete information, flaws, dislikes, prejudgments and misjudgments. Harry is for example, more willing to listen to someone he likes and not automatically think they're up to something bad or assume the worst of them in general. JKR does this brilliantly with the Harry character. Straight from the beginning in PS/SS, Snape wasn't all he first seemed.

Agreed, but it cannot be presumed that every reader will agree with Harry in every instance - either for the good guys or the bad guys or the grey guys. Harry disliked Blaise and I still don't. I thought he was a kicking cool character. Harry ended up forgiving Snape, but I don't, Harry disliked Draco, but I don't, etc. So JKR's hide and seek tactics don't always work the way she would like. She tried to keep Snape's character ambivalent, but it didn't work for me - I had no doubt, not one, about what side he was on. I have posted my past remarks in that regard prior to DH and in them I say: "I am 100% certain Snape is on the good side" because I was. Yet JKR was trying not to spill the beans. So for me, Harry's likes and dislikes and all that mattered not at all, I made my own judgments.

In short, Snape was all he first seemed - to me. Nothing changed - I only got added info which changed nothing about the character himself, imo. For me, Harry related "facts" and then made additional judgments. Well I judged the facts about Snape myself. Harry's response was important only to Harry's character analysis. But some details supplied by Harry had to be weighed because he is not a mind reader - nonetheless, JKR was careful to repeat certain factors a whole lot (like Snape smirking and smiling slyly, etc.) and had kids and adults other than Harry respond to his doing so, thus, these types of details that would normally be more subjective, take on a more objective light. And that is how I define Snape's character. :) So for example, when Harry notes that Snape is speaking to Tonks with maliciousness, well I would take that with a grain of salt. But JKR had Tonks react in such a way to support Harry's view - Tonks ran off crying. Additionally, the actual words used (not how, but the actual words) were malicious in nature under the circumstances. So that is what I am talking about.

It was out of the goodness of Snape's heart that he agreed to brew a potion for someone who he did not like, for someone who did not like him, with whom he had a pretty poor past and one he was suspicious at present IMO. The wolfsbane is itself a potion to ensure the safety of a werewolf; so unless Lupin was in a place where he needed to be safe, Snape would not have needed to brew the potion for him IMO.

I think we are speaking at cross purposes. All I am saying is that Snape did not say to himself: "I think I'll make Lupin a potion because he is a werewolf and this will lessen his suffering". My point was that his action did not show any regard for Lupin's werewolf state.

I was answering your point that said he was prejudiced towards a particular section of the wizazrding society. For that we don't have much canon IMO. For I don't see Snape treating the halfbreeds/dark creatures we see in the book with special contempt, just because they were diffierent IMO.

Well we woud have to agree to disagree. I feel that 'dragging the werewolf' and comparing werewolf-dark creatures to murderers just for being werewolves, and making statements like 'don't ask me to fathom the thinking of a werewolf' is distinguishing them, just because they are different. And I feel that Snape was acting in a contemputous manner and his attitude was the same, imo.

It was out of the goodness of Snape's heart that he agreed to brew a potion for someone who he did not like, for someone who did not like him, with whom he had a pretty poor past and one he was suspicious at present IMO. I most sincerely disagree. It was upon Dumbledore's assigning him the task, a task in which not only Snape's safety was at issue, but everyone at that school. It was not an assignment that Snape could say "oh, I'd really rather not, thanks all the same" Or "can't, you know, the bad blood between us and all" or "find someone else, cause I will not ever help the werewolf"! :lol:

To me there's a big difference between 'asking' and 'ordering'. Ask, and there's a right to refuse. Order, live with consequences if orders aren't followed.

Snape was the Potions Master, yet Poppy Pomfrey - as a healer - should have been more than up to the task of brewing the Potion. Yet this was Snape's task for the entire school year and one that Dumbledore inquired upon to ensure it was being doing, at least once that we're aware of.

The wolfsbane is itself a potion to ensure the safety of a werewolf; so unless Lupin was in a place where he needed to be safe, Snape would not have needed to brew the potion for him IMO.Well, the Shack was still standing wasn't it? Who, other than Dumbledore, Poppy, Wormtail, Sirius, and Snape knew how to get in there or what it used to conceal once a month? The potion wasn't really necessary at all, because there was a safe place for Lupin to transform and without someone to help him escape from the Shack, he'd remain until he turned back.

Anyway, trying to get away from the Remus subject....

Snape was the Potions Master, yet Poppy Pomfrey - as a healer - should have been more than up to the task of brewing the Potion.

I disagree with that idea. Just because Poppy is a healer doesn't mean she can brew a potion as complex as we are told the Wolfbane potion is, Doctors are very highly qualified but few could whip up many (or any) of the medications they prescribe :)

In fact, judging by the exchange Lockhart and Snape have in CoS...

'I'll make it,' Lockhart butted in. 'I must have done it a hundred times, I could whip up a Mandrake Restorative Draught in my sleep –'
'Excuse me,' said Snape icily, 'but I believe I am the Potions master at this school.'

...It seems to really fall down to Snape to make the more complex medicines/brews for the entire school, so that Poppy may administer them.

...It seems to really fall down to Snape to make the more complex medicines/brews for the entire school, so that Poppy may administer them.

Aside from undoubted ability it does seem that alright but I think a lot of it was down to Dumbledore placing that faith in him to make the more complex potions when they were required.

I disagree with that idea. Just because Poppy is a healer doesn't mean she can brew a potion as complex as we are told the Wolfbane potion is, Doctors are very highly qualified but few could whip up many (or any) of the medications they prescribe :)Well, I tend to disagree that Poppy wouldn't be capable of brewing the Potion, simply because she is an accomplished Healer. But when you compare the grades required for Healing, they appear exactly similar to requirements of Aurors: nothing below Exceeds Expectations in Potions, Herbology, Transfiguration, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts.

I certainly do recall disputing the idea that Tonks was up to the task of brewing this same finicky potion, despite her grades, NEWT requirements, and experience as an Auror. Well, that just goes to show that I don't always agree with my opinions. :elaugh:

While Poppy is more than capable as a Healer, IMO, I do feel that it was the Potions Master who was generally tasked with the brewing of complex, finicky potions at Hogwarts.

The fact that it is Snape administering the potion - and not Poppy - implies to me that Snape was brewing/administering the potion on Dumbledore's orders, rather than a simple request of a favor from Headmaster to Potions Master.

'Course, it could also just be Snape's way to control the issue and make absolutely sure the potion is consumed. In all honesty, I don't really see it like that, because otherwise Snape'd never have left Lupin alone with Harry to consume the potion at his leisure. :huh:

'Course, it could also just be Snape's way to control the issue and make absolutely sure the potion is consumed. In all honesty, I don't really see it like that, because otherwise Snape'd never have left Lupin alone with Harry to consume the potion at his leisure. :huh:

:) I do think that making sure Lupin took the potion was an issue, as I've said before it was his job to ensure the safety of all the Slytherin students - I think he was a person who took his responsibilities very seriously.

I can see why you might find his not waiting to watch Lupin drink the potion in front of Harry the way you do - however I don't think he had much choice, Lupin was a college and he had to show some respect for that infront of a student, even if it was Potter ;) to my mind he did as much as he could in those circumstances. Also we see in the only other example we have of Severus, Lupin & the potion (at least I think it is :D) Severus checks up to see if the potion has been taken - while we have no cannon it seems possible at least, and I would say probable, that he did so regularly; after all he had good reason not to want to see Lupin transform again :)

Well I was speaking of the intent to float rather than the intent to drag. Harry was the one to notice the head bumping and he didn't say anything. But I was not talking about what happened to Snape (he was unconscious at the time and I doubt he even knew about it.) So I was discussing Snape's conscious decisions of intent.
It is all very well "intending" to do something good or right but if you don't do it then the intention is empty. This applies to both Black's "intention" to float Snape - he didn't take care and Snape was hurt as a result - and Snape's "intention" to drag Lupin across the grounds - which also didn't happen. Intention is nothing without action.
And incidently would it have been okay for Snape to drag Lupin across the ground if he had been unconcious?

And I feel that Snape was acting in a contemputous manner and his attitude was the same, imo. I think that canon shows that Snape's contempt for Lupin was because he was in league with Sirius (as Snape thought) and not just because he was a werewolf.
Snape doesn't seem to have a problem with other who appear to be less than human such as Hagrid. We are shown quite clearly a character who does have these prejudices in Umbridge and Snape does not behave like her at all. As such I would conclude that Snape is not prejudiced - he has good reason to think badly of Lupin and that seems to be the cause of his contempt towards Lupin rather than his condition.

It is all very well "intending" to do something good or right but if you don't do it then the intention is empty. This applies to both Black's "intention" to float Snape - he didn't take care and Snape was hurt as a result - and Snape's "intention" to drag Lupin across the grounds - which also didn't happen. Intention is nothing without action.
And incidently would it have been okay for Snape to drag Lupin across the ground if he had been unconcious?

Of course not. But we don't even know if Sirius knew Snape's head was bumping, we only know that Harry knew. So Harry's intent was bad - I already said that. Snape's intent was also bad, he did not go through with it because he was stopped, thus, the inaction matters not, in this circumstance, imo.

I think that canon shows that Snape's contempt for Lupin was because he was in league with Sirius (as Snape thought) and not just because he was a werewolf. Snape doesn't seem to have a problem with other who appear to be less than human such as Hagrid. We are shown quite clearly a character who does have these prejudices in Umbridge and Snape does not behave like her at all. As such I would conclude that Snape is not prejudiced - he has good reason to think badly of Lupin and that seems to be the cause of his contempt towards Lupin rather than his condition.

I respect your view - but I have made up my mind on this based on the canon. He spoke solely of werewolves in a degrading sense, both to Lily and to the Minister - referring to them as dark creatures (buying into society's belief). His treatment of Lupin in the shack (binding and aim to drag) together with his words - not I will see to this culprit - but rather "drag the werewolf" - all fully support my belief, imo. Snape was not alone, many people were prejudice against werewolves - more than were prejudice against muggles and muggleborns. So to me, he was just one in a crowd on this issue.

Whatever Snape's motive may have been, it did not include doing it for Lupin out of the goodness of his heart - that was my only point. If the safety of others was his motive, that does not discount his prejudice of werewolves, imo. Snape was just made to prepare and bring Lupin his drinks (much like Peter in HBP), but one doesn't have to like or respect the person to act as a servant to them.

I agree. I think Snape was the most qualified to make the potion, but also think that he was doing it because Dumbledore asked him to do it. Which is why he not only brewed it but delivered it to Lupin himself. But not because he wanted to be kind or help Lupin, or was no longer prejudiced against werewolves -- quite the contrary. And isn't it inferred that Snape was the one who let Lupin's condition "slip" at year's end so that Lupin would have to leave?

But not because he wanted to be kind or help Lupin, or was no longer prejudiced against werewolves -- quite the contrary. And isn't it inferred that Snape was the one who let Lupin's condition "slip" at year's end so that Lupin would have to leave?

:lol: A discussion of why Snape did that has been raging for a page or more now.

I don't see much evidence that Snape is or was ever, prejudiced against werewolves (so one could speak of him as "no longer" prejudiced.) Yes, he was trying to figure out what was up with teen Lupin, but I personally think he could not have cared less, if Lupin had not been part of a little gang that enjoyed picking on him when they could catch him alone, and he would have looked into anything (not just lycanthropy) if it seemed it might give him the means to get back at the Marauders.

Hogwarts employs many people who aren't 100% human (Hagrid, Firenze, and Flitwick spring to mind), but Snape seems to be able to work with them. I think the issue for Snape with regard to Lupin was more the fact that he believed Lupin was in league with Sirius and could do a great deal of damage if not properly "medicated"-- and, indeed, once he discovered Lupin in the shack with Sirius, those fears were, in his mind, pretty much confirmed. Here was Sirius Black and Remus Lupin, with the kids, alone in the shack on a full moon night, and Remus has not taken his potion. Snape, who is not inclined to think much of the Marauders for obvious reasons, would probably conclude that Lupin was trying to get someone bitten. Obviously, Remus wanted to do no such thing, but Snape did not know that, and he's not likely to think Remus innocent anyway.

Lycanthropy plays a role, IMO, but only in the sense that a werewolf in the transformed state is no "furry little problem", but something very dangerous that needs to be kept safe from others until the person changes back.

And since the un-transformed werewolf happened to be Lupin, Snape wouldn't be very amicable toward him anyway. He doesn't appear to have much respect for human!Lupin in PoA, probably out of a combination of Snape's suspicions and their history...and the boggart incident wouldn't have helped matters either.

:lol: A discussion of why Snape did that has been raging for a page or more now.

I don't see much evidence that Snape is or was ever, prejudiced against werewolves (so one could speak of him as "no longer" prejudiced.) Yes, he was trying to figure out what was up with teen Lupin, but I personally think he could not have cared less, if Lupin had not been part of a little gang that enjoyed picking on him when they could catch him alone, and he would have looked into anything (not just lycanthropy) if it seemed it might give him the means to get back at the Marauders.

I respect the idea that all of the above does not show prejudice, but in my view, it not only reasonably, but most assuredly does.

What would it take to convince you, or anyone that Snape held prejudice against werewolves? An affirmative statement such as "I am prejudiced against werewolves"? Because the novels were not written that way. Draco never once claimed or declared flat out that he was prejudiced against Muggleborns - and yet by his statements and behavior, it was evident, imo. Snape behaved the same way when young we are told by Lily and we heard him make such a statement about her in canon. And it is suggested that he didn't hold any prejudice against them. I don't buy it.

Same thing here, imo. The mere fact that he referred to Lupin as a dark creature, was to me, determinative. Because they were not in reality, they were only construed as such by a prejudiced society. No dark curse is issued when one is bitten by them - it is a natural function of their existence. So those who accept that idea, are buying into the prejudice, imo.

Snape's further refereces to Lupin with respect to being a werewolf were all degrading or spoke in terms of his being inferior (likening him to a murderer in the first instance and dragging the werewolf in the second). He clearly indicated they were distinct in his mind from "humans" as he told Harry not to ask him to 'fathom the mind of a werewolf' - and he was referring to Lupin in human form at the time - throughout the school year - not when transformed into a wolf.

Ron made one little comment: "don't touch me werewolf" - and he was marked by holding the same prejudice, imo. This is the way many in society were - good siders, bad siders and grey siders. No one defends Ron's statement as not showing prejudice, but Snape's many comments and his behavior is supposed to somehow be read to mean he had none? Not to me.


From Remus thread - where topic goes back and forth to the characters in question like a ping pong ball. :lol:

Prehaps I should have said general accepted instead - however does any of this take anything away from my point that there is a great deal of differance between a non transformed werewolf & a transformed one in terms of the potential risk they pose to anyone around them?

I agree it does not take away from the conclusion that there is a difference, and I agree there is a difference. That gives no one the right to treat them vindictively and rat them out of their professional position though. The act against Remus was wrongful per se, imo, that is, wrong in and of itself. There is no justification for doing it whatsoever, without first speaking to the party to ascertain whether they will leave or not of their own accord (and they may have, as in this case, already decided to do so.) Thus, to try to make excuses makes no sense for me, I don't care if one discovers the best reason in the world for a basis for Remus leaving - the fact still remains that ratting someone out, and breaking a trust not only in them, but in others you have promised, is wrong.

So while the topic was evolved into whether or not Remus should leave, the question pertained to whether or not Snape's act was wrong. The discussion about Remus has no bearing on that, imo. The purpose behind it was, at least originally, to absolve Snape. He cannot be absolved because his "act" was wrong, independent of what danger Remus might have posed. He should have gone to Remus - or at worst, Dumbledore. Not start common gossip among young teenagers - there is simply no justification in that, imo.

Lycanthropy plays a role, IMO, but only in the sense that a werewolf in the transformed state is no "furry little problem", but something very dangerous that needs to be kept safe from others until the person changes back.

That's exactly what I was about to write - in HBP Lupin laughs at Harry when he tries to diminish lycanthropy to just a "little problem." I don't see the problem with Snape being the first defense against Lupin transforming and threatening the school. Dumbledore trusted Snape to do the right thing, and he did it.

What would it take to convince you, or anyone that Snape held prejudice against werewolves? An affirmative statement such as "I am prejudiced against werewolves"?
Wasn't Snape just afraid of the fact that werewolves prey on human beings only? Harry, Draco - all the kids were like little chicken nuggets to a werewolf. :lol: That's not conjecture - it's fact.

Snape also knew something in PoA that Harry didn't find out until HBP - all about Fenrir Greyback and how hideous he was. Fenrir was a cannibal, which is confirmed by his attacks on children and Bill Weasley. When we think about a cannibal, we think of Hannibal Lector, but Snape would think of a werewolf.

If that's not a reason to be cautious around a werewolf, then I don't know what is.

Plus again - Lupin is not just any werewolf, but the very same person who would have killed Snape as a boy if things had been different. Snape was too smart to give him a second chance at that, or to kill any other kids.

When Molly Weasley sees a werewolf in the same hospital ward as her sick husband in OotP, she doesn't jump for joy either.

That's exactly what I was about to write - in HBP Lupin laughs at Harry when he tries to diminish lycanthropy to just a "little problem." I don't see the problem with Snape being the first defense against Lupin transforming and threatening the school. Dumbledore trusted Snape to do the right thing, and he did it.

No he didn't, in my view. The right thing, imo, would be to go to the person you have an issue with, or their superior, and discuss your concerns - that would be the adult thing to do. Since when is it fine to rat people out before discussing the issue with them? And when they have shown no defiance after an event like the one in canon...

Wasn't Snape just afraid of the fact that werewolves prey on human beings only? Harry, Draco - all the kids were like little chicken nuggets to a werewolf. :lol: That's not conjecture - it's fact.

Sure, but that wasn't Snape's concern, imo - the kids were leaving before any full moon would hit again. He had ample time to go speak to Lupin or Dumbledore, imo.

Snape also knew something in PoA that Harry didn't find out until HBP - all about Fenrir Greyback and how hideous he was. Fenrir was a cannibal, which is confirmed by his attacks on children and Bill Weasley. When we think about a cannibal, we think of Hannibal Lector, but Snape would think of a werewolf.

There is no comparison between a werewolf who sets out and plans to turn people - actually places himself at their home before transforming in order to do so - and Remus. That is canon too.

If that's not a reason to be cautious around a werewolf, then I don't know what is.

Then Snape could talk to the werewolf about his concerns...

Plus again - Lupin is not just any werewolf, but the very same person who would have killed Snape as a boy if things had been different. Snape was too smart to give him a second chance at that, or to kill any other kids.

Now I could agree. Snape was after revenge, imo. And that is why we got the ratting out instead of the normal thing any professional or well-meaning man would do, imo.

When Molly Weasley sees a werewolf in the same hospital ward as her sick husband in OotP, she doesn't jump for joy either.

Prejudice runs rampant...it wasn't just Molly, but Ron and most of society as well. However, she didn't turn rabid and demand Arthur be separated from the man, nor did she pull some underhanded trick to achieve it. So in my view, that does not support Snape breaking his trust in Dumbledore and disclosomg something he'd promised not to tell - twice. Nor to do it in such a way that would make it even harder for Lupin to find work anywhere. And to do it in an underhanded manner without consulting his superior, in my judgment.

To me, "why" Snape did it is completely irrelevant to the manner in which he accomplished what he set out to do. Because I believe his intent was wrongful - but even if one could come up with a reason that it wasn't wrongful (that fit the canon of the kids leaving before the next full moon, DADA professors all leaving after 1 year, Lupin resigning and Snape not speaking to either Dumbledore or Remus before his comment 'slipped' out), Snape still behaved in a vindictive and petty manner in accomplishing what he set out to do, imo. I feel it was revenge, pure and simple because if he really had a valid and good reason, he would have gone to Dumbledore and/or Lupin with it - he knew they were both rational people, imo.

I agree it does not take away from the conclusion that there is a difference, and I agree there is a difference.

:) Thank you.

That gives no one the right to treat them vindictively and rat them out of their professional position though. The act against Remus was wrongful per se, imo, that is, wrong in and of itself. There is no justification for doing it whatsoever, without first speaking to the party to ascertain whether they will leave or not of their own accord (and they may have, as in this case, already decided to do so.) Thus, to try to make excuses makes no sense for me,

I see the two discussions as relatively separate things to be honest. To my mind the rightness or wrongness of any one person’s actions in that scenario has no real bearing on the rightness or wrongness of any other person’s actions jmho.

The purpose behind it was, at least originally, to absolve Snape.

I can’t agree on this & as the move was not made by any one person I suspect there isn’t a single reason behind it – but that’s just the way I see it.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. :)

He cannot be absolved because his "act" was wrong, independent of what danger Remus might have posed. He should have gone to Remus - or at worst, Dumbledore. Not start common gossip among young teenagers - there is simply no justification in that, imo.

Well I know you feel strongly about this: belief in loyalty is important imo. However I don’t see it being quite as clear cut. :)

Severus is a master of Hogwarts and as such has certain duties to ensure the welfare of the students there.

He is also Head of Slytherin – so his responsibility to Slytherin students in even greater. (If one wishes to follow McGonagall’s theme of ‘the house being like your family while you are at school’ then Severus has a particularly great duty to these students.)

I also think he thought others were neglecting the trust parents placed in all the teachers of Hogwarts to guard the well being of their children.

I think it was also very clear to him that despite having caught Lupin working with Black – the Headmaster was still refusing to tackle the problem (one which Severus saw as being very dangerous imo)

I don't think these were the only reason's he acted as he did - but I think they were important and don't seem to get much thought imo.

The irony of it is that Lupin seems to agree with him that it is to dangerous for him to remain as a teacher at Hogwarts if his comment of “After last night, I se their point. I could have bitten any of you…that must never happen again.” Is anything to go by. (PoA/22)

I think that a good deal of the issue here is what our parallel to Lycanthropy is, for a very long time I had assumed it was HIV or Aids but then with Greyback it takes on a whole more sinister bent so it becomes more muddly.

On the question of Dumbledore trusting Snape to make right decisions and Howarts employing plenty non 100% magical folks, I'm not for one second saying DD was wrong in employing Lupin, but he coud have been. For me this is utterly seperate to Snape and if he was the wrong or right person to make Wolfsbane and any issues Snape and Lupin had. Snape and Lupin have a history. This we know,maybe one makes more light of it in public than the other does, we'll never really know the truth to that. As this is a Snape character analysis thread we have to ask ourselves all the questions through a Snape focus - did Snape treat Lupin fairly? How could Snape have done differently? Should he have done differently?

If we don't do this then I'm afraid we'll never move this conversation on!

As this is a Snape character analysis thread we have to ask ourselves all the questions through a Snape focus - did Snape treat Lupin fairly? How could Snape have done differently? Should he have done differently?

If we don't do this then I'm afraid we'll never move this conversation on!

I believe Snape treated Lupin fairly till the point when he became sure that Lupin helped Sirius. Well, he was wrong obviously, but he wanted it to be so, and when everything seemed to point that way he wouldn't listen. Not to forget that even Hermione thought so before they heard them out. But then again, they had no grudges, and Snape had. He was afraid that "the joke will be on him again". So, yes, he treated him fairly, he made the potion right, and his suspicions were conveyed to Dumbledore only.
I think I answered the second question already... he should have listened to what Lupin and Sirius had to say, or at least to Lupin, if he hated Sirius so much, though I have to say that Sirius has an almost equal amount of blame here...
Yes, Snape should have done differently, though not all resides with him.

Same thing here, imo. The mere fact that he referred to Lupin as a dark creature, was to me, determinative. Because they were not in reality, they were only construed as such by a prejudiced society. No dark curse is issued when one is bitten by them - it is a natural function of their existence. So those who accept that idea, are buying into the prejudice, imo.
So how do you define a "dark creature" ? All of the creatures that Harry and his year studied under Lupin are classed as Dark Creatures. Grindylows, Kappas, Boggarts were all classed as Dark Creatures and all seemed to be creatures that by their very nature (rather than by choice) were magical and dangerous to humans, which seems to indicate the criteria necessary to be classed as a Dark Creature. By this definition Werewolves are Dark Creatures. It is in their nature to harm humans (when transformed) as much as it is in the nature of a grindylow to harm humans. If these creatures were not classed as Dark Creatures then they would have been studied in "Care of Magical Creatures" rather than Defence against the Dark Arts. So according to the wizarding world that JKR created werewolves are classed as Dark Creatures. Therefore I cannot see naming Lupin, who is a werewolf, as a Dark Creature as prejudice becasue that is what he is.

ETA: As for this whole Snape telling the Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf - well frankly I think it served him right for not telling Dumbledore, or anyone else for that matter, that Black was an animagus. I find that to be a far bigger betrayal of trust and a far more dangerous error of judgement.

So how do you define a "dark creature" ? All of the creatures that Harry and his year studied under Lupin are classed as Dark Creatures. Grindylows, Kappas, Boggarts were all classed as Dark Creatures and all seemed to be creatures that by their very nature (rather than by choice) were magical and dangerous to humans, which seems to indicate the criteria necessary to be classed as a Dark Creature. By this definition Werewolves are Dark Creatures. It is in their nature to harm humans (when transformed) as much as it is in the nature of a grindylow to harm humans. If these creatures were not classed as Dark Creatures then they would have been studied in "Care of Magical Creatures" rather than Defence against the Dark Arts. So according to the wizarding world that JKR created werewolves are classed as Dark Creatures. Therefore I cannot see naming Lupin, who is a werewolf, as a Dark Creature as prejudice becasue that is what he is.

I think it is the application of these designations when Lupin was in human form that indicated predudice, implying that Lupin was not capable of human thoughts and feelings. A werewolf is not always a werewolf; in fact they are human most of the time. I think it is a predudice many in the wizarding world share. The big difference between Snape and Ron, in my opinion, is that Ron was willing to listen to Lupin's side of the tale anyway, and change his outlook.

Greyback was a monster when in human form, but then so too were many of the Death Eaters, who happened to be pure humans all the time. I think Greyback chose to be a monster when he was in human form.

I have to say, that it fits in with the way I read Snape for him to be so predudiced. He seems to have a very narrow field of vision. In my opinion, that's why he could stay so focused on Lily for so many years, and why he developes and changes at a speed akin to watching oil paint dry.

did Snape treat Lupin fairly?

I think so yes.

How could Snape have done differently?

He could have not revealed Lupin's status and given him a third chance to prove he would not be careless and forget his potion. By doing so, Snape would also need to accept responsibility if Lupin would get careless again and at that time do real harm. Not only Snape, but the entire staff would be held responsible for that, if it happened.

Since Snape actively wanted Lupin to go, unlike other staff's opinions we don't know; I think he would have to accept responsibility if Lupin made another mistake, which he clearly was not willing to do.

Should he have done differently?

No. By outing Lupin, Snape effectively placed a bar on Lupin coming into Hogwarts in any capacity (among the staff).

While Lupin would not teach DADA, he could always come back for another subject or to guard Hogwarts. Snape's outing of him, stopped that. While I feel bad for Lupin, I do think Snape did the right thing, for Snape's responsibility towards the safety of Hogwarts students weighed in more.

Snape did not out Lupin at once; not even after Sirius was seen getting into Gryffindor Tower. Only after Lupin forgot the potion and changed, did Snape out him. Sirius alone was able to stop him; had he not been there Snape and the other 3 students would have been bitten/killed.

In this light and with a possibility of Lupin coming back to Hogwarts at a later date, I think Snape's actions were on the up IMO.

As this is a Snape character analysis thread we have to ask ourselves all the questions through a Snape focus - did Snape treat Lupin fairly? How could Snape have done differently? Should he have done differently?

If we don't do this then I'm afraid we'll never move this conversation on!

I see the way Snape thinks of Lupin in PoA as somewhat similar to the Snape-Harry relationship throughout many of the books. Snape is already disposed to think poorly of Lupin, so he develops an idea that he wholeheartedly believes and is, unfortunately, slightly supported by Lupin's behavior (even though Lupin does mean well).

However, what Snape accuses Lupin of is much more serious and, considering all the odd coincidences that occur that year, somewhat likely. It's not too huge of a jump to make.

Whether Snape treated Lupin fairly really, IMO, has to be judged on a case-by-case basis. When Snape was substituting Lupin's class, for instance, he really shouldn't have criticised Lupin's organizational skills in front of the kids, when Dumbledore was there to talk to. However, the night Sirius escaped, the situation became a lot more serious, and Snape, although not behaving very kindly, did do what he believed to be the right thing.

Greyback was a monster when in human form, but then so too were many of the Death Eaters, who happened to be pure humans all the time.

If Snape were laboring under the delusion that Lupin was in league with Sirius and therefore a DE bent on killing people, doesn't that mean that he would see Lupin as a monster in human form? :hmm:

If Snape were laboring under the delusion that Lupin was in league with Sirius and therefore a DE bent on killing people, doesn't that mean that he would see Lupin as a monster in human form? :hmm:

I was adressing the question of whether or not Snape is bigoted. Judging people's actions on an individual basis is what we should strive for, and although Snape loathes Lupin as an individual, he is also quick to condemn him because he belongs to a particular group. If people look at only Greyback, one individual, and decide that his actions mean that all werewolves are evil even when in human form even though other werewolves are out there not doing what he is doing, then that is bigotry. So, as I see it, when Snape declares that it is not possible to fathom the mind of a werewolf when he is talking about Lupin in human form, that is bigotry. Snape shows he has prejudged all werewolves to be nonhuman and monsterous all the time, even when they are human state..

the irony of it is that Lupin seems to agree with him that it is to dangerous for him to remain as a teacher at Hogwarts if his comment of “After last night, I se their point. I could have bitten any of you…that must never happen again.” Is anything to go by. (PoA/22)

That is not the irony, because we always knew Lupin felt that way - that is canon. The irony is people trying to adopt Lupin's view and give it to Snape. Nobody has a quote to supply from Snape because there isn't one and some hopeful fan made this up - not JKR. Her purpose was to show that Snape was being vindictive and cruel in ratting out Lupin - not benevolently thinking about any students or their safety - that is why there is no quote from Snape, imo. But in the above paragraph, Lupin's words are used to say that he felt like Snape. :lol:. So I respect your right to hold the view, but unless there is canon evidence, it remains a theory, imo.

That is not the irony, because we always knew Lupin felt that way - that is canon. Have you got a quote for that? I can't remember Lupin saying anything about how he could have bitten a student before this episode, so I don't see how it can be said that "we always knew Lupin felt that way."

I think it is the application of these designations when Lupin was in human form that indicated predudice, implying that Lupin was not capable of human thoughts and feelings. A werewolf is not always a werewolf; in fact they are human most of the time. I think it is a predudice many in the wizarding world share. The big difference between Snape and Ron, in my opinion, is that Ron was willing to listen to Lupin's side of the tale anyway, and change his outlook.

Snape, of course, uses these terms when Lupin is on the brink of transformation. He seems the only one cognizant of the imminent danger Lupin poses. Everyone else (Lupin included!) seems to have no idea which phase of the moon it is.

If Snape were laboring under the delusion that Lupin was in league with Sirius and therefore a DE bent on killing people, doesn't that mean that he would see Lupin as a monster in human form? :hmm:

Yes, except that Snape had no basis for this, imo. Harry asked him flat out: if Lupin wanted to kill me, why didn't he do it? He had been alone with Harry a multitude of times and had a multitude of opportunities to do it. Snape's answer makes it all quite clear, imo. Don't ask him to fathom the mind of a werewolf; but Snape has been doing just that all along, claiming to know his mind and what he was really doing - helping Black.

Snape, in answer to Liselle's questions, wanted revenge, pure and simple and it underscored everything he said and did in relation to this matter throughout POA, imo. He went through all of his enemies, except the one who was actually guilty.

Have you got a quote for that? I can't remember Lupin saying anything about how he could have bitten a student before this episode, so I don't see how it can be said that "we always knew Lupin felt that way."


I meant we always knew he felt that way throughout our conversation on this topic - based on the quote provided by Kittling. :)

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I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?

I believe Snape treated Lupin fairly till the point when he became sure that Lupin helped Sirius.I would disagree. Snape fought Remus's appointment, Dumbledore had to work hard to convince him that Remus was trustworthy. Then, while Remus is transformed and safe, while under the effects of the Potion, substitute teacher Snape assigns students an essay about werewolves. The reason alleged, and I've seen no one deny, is that Snape set that essay so someone would work out the secret - and of course, someone did, but kept the secret instead of blabbing. He never trusted that Lupin and Black weren't working together, he reiterates his lack of trust following the attack on the Fat Lady.

The fact is that Lupin and Black weren't working together, despite Remus keeping secrets.

As for this whole Snape telling the Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf - well frankly I think it served him right for not telling Dumbledore, or anyone else for that matter, that Black was an animagus. I find that to be a far bigger betrayal of trust and a far more dangerous error of judgement.Two wrongs never make a right, CW. :)

There are many terrible things that Snape was guilty of. Should he have been outed, outcast, or killed for them? :no:
By this definition Werewolves are Dark Creatures.I don't mind the classification for someone who is in a transformed state, this is when they are considered "dangerous". It does not, however, hold over to the individual in a non-transformed state, IMO. So all of the statements in which Snape seems to refuse to address Remus by his name and instead calls him "werewolf" to me shows a level of prejudice on his part, just as Ron's comment "Get away from me werewolf" shows his prejudice. Notice too, how quickly Ron releases that long held prejudice and reverts to seeing Remus as a man.
I think that a good deal of the issue here is what our parallel to Lycanthropy is, for a very long time I had assumed it was HIV or Aids but then with Greyback it takes on a whole more sinister bent so it becomes more muddly.To me it remained the same. I just view it simply as one is afflicted with a terrible disease and tries to limit his risk of infecting others {Remus}, to that of some people who knowingly have a disease and callously inflicts their disease on as many people as they can {Greyback}. In the 'Muggle world' criminal cases on serial sex offenders spreading HIV/AIDs in this manner, deliberately infecting others and effectively handing out death sentences, is on the rise.Have you got a quote for that? I can't remember Lupin saying anything about how he could have bitten a student before this episode, so I don't see how it can be said that "we always knew Lupin felt that way." His comments to the trio about the danger he was as a student at Hogwarts, sneaking out with his friends on the full moon. This of course occurred before he transformed that evening. Then there's the canon that he felt himself too dangerous to be in a relationship with Tonks - prior to their marriage.If Snape were laboring under the delusion that Lupin was in league with Sirius and therefore a DE bent on killing people, doesn't that mean that he would see Lupin as a monster in human form? Did Snape have a habit of labeling all such people, Death Eaters and the like, "werewolf"? :no: Did he ever call Greyback this in canon? Sorry, I honestly cannot recall if he did or didn't, but I do not believe that he did. :huh:
Snape, of course, uses these terms when Lupin is on the brink of transformation. He seems the only one cognizant of the imminent danger Lupin poses. Everyone else seems to have no idea which phase of the moon it is. Well, I tend to disagree here. This is the only time we've seen the transformation, so we can't say what Snape did or didn't do in regards to all of the other transformations. I also do not believe his comment to Fudge, in which he refers to Remus as "werewolf" bears this idea out, nor does his revelation that Lupin is a werewolf to the students of Slytherin - where there is no chance of imminent danger of transformation - but that is only my opinion.

posted by WWB
Snape, in answer to Liselle's questions, wanted revenge, pure and simple and it underscored everything he said and did in relation to this matter throughout POA, imo. He went through all of his enemies, except the one who was actually guilty.

I think the only person Snape wanted revenge on was Sirius, and that too when he thought like everyone else that Sirius was a DE. After that there is nothing in the books to say Snape wanted revenge on anyone IMO.

I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?

I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?

At first, I think Snape was saddened, hurt and possibly angry, when he thought Dumbledore might be disregarding his soul as unimportant (which I can understand). When Dumbledore explained the difference in the killings: Snape's would be fulfilling a dying man's wish, where as Draco's would be cold-blooded murder, Snape seemed to calm down and realise what Dumbledore meant. I don't think Dumbledore could give a definite yes or no, because it truly was up to Severus in the end. Dumbledore could only give his opinion on how a soul may be affected and try comfort him.

I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?

From Dumbledore's point of view I think he wanted Snape to be comfortable, mainly. He probably knew nothing would happen to Snape's soul, but Snape needed to realise that.

From Snape's point of view, I think he was probably outraged at first; that Dumbledore cared more about Draco's DE soul than his own; once he calmed down, I'd like to think he would have understood what Dumbledore meant and what the difference would be between his and Draco's actions.

I would disagree. Snape fought Remus's appointment, Dumbledore had to work hard to convince him that Remus was trustworthy. Then, while Remus is transformed and safe, while under the effects of the Potion, substitute teacher Snape assigns students an essay about werewolves. The reason alleged, and I've seen no one deny, is that Snape set that essay so someone would work out the secret - and of course, someone did, but kept the secret instead of blabbing. He never trusted that Lupin and Black weren't working together, he reiterates his lack of trust following the attack on the Fat Lady.

I understand what you mean, I merely stated that he acted as treating him fair, what he felt, or what he told Dumbledore about him is different. He never liked him and always mistrusted him, but - considering how much badly he could have done - he was quite...fair with him.
I liked ignisia's view on this:
I see the way Snape thinks of Lupin in PoA as somewhat similar to the Snape-Harry relationship throughout many of the books. Snape is already disposed to think poorly of Lupin, so he develops an idea that he wholeheartedly believes and is, unfortunately, slightly supported by Lupin's behavior (even though Lupin does mean well).


Yes, right...


Isn't it strange though, that Snape usually has the knack of guessing things even if they are not accurate a lot of times. Here, he has guessed right that Lupin wasn't entirely truthfull, though he reasoned it wrong. He wanted to reason it wrong.

My actual point here is that Snape was biased by his old grudge, and as ignisia says, Lupin's behaviour somewhat encouraged him to think he was right.
As character analysis: Snape is a deeply hurt person who does not forget because he was never forgiven, I believe. He seeks vengeance, he wants a small bit of satisfaction for all he endured from the Marauders. Maybe they thought better about their behaviour, but they never told Snape, have they? I am not saying he is right in doing so, merely stating that it is somewhat understandable...

At first, I think Snape was saddened, hurt and possibly angry, when he thought Dumbledore might be disregarding his soul as unimportant (which I can understand). When Dumbledore explained the difference in the killings: Snape's would be fulfilling a dying man's wish, where as Draco's would be cold-blooded murder, Snape seemed to calm down and realise what Dumbledore meant. I don't think Dumbledore could give a definite yes or no, because it truly was up to Severus in the end. Dumbledore could only give his opinion on how a soul may be affected and try comfort him.

But do you figure that even if Dumbledore couldn't give a yes or know, Snape felt that he could have given a more profound answer? Meaning did Snape believe he had to figure this out (because Dumbledore didn't know), or did he think Dumbledore was trying to make him grapple with the issue?

Well, I tend to disagree here. This is the only time we've seen the transformation, so we can't say what Snape did or didn't do in regards to all of the other transformations. I also do not believe his comment to Fudge, in which he refers to Remus as "werewolf" bears this idea out, nor does his revelation that Lupin is a werewolf to the students of Slytherin - where there is no chance of imminent danger of transformation - but that is only my opinion.

But at the time he calls Remus a werewolf to Fudge, Remus is running about school grounds, howling at the moon and ready to attack anything human he happens across! Suppose Fudge had chosen to send Aurors to search the school grounds for Sirius, for example. Should they not be warned there is a werewolf loose?

My point is that we have never seen Snape use such terms of Lupin except on a full moon night, so how can we conclude he is prejudiced based on their use?

But do you figure that even if Dumbledore couldn't give a yes or know, Snape felt that he could have given a more profound answer? Meaning did Snape believe he had to figure this out (because Dumbledore didn't know), or did he think Dumbledore was trying to make him grapple with the issue?

I think, Snape seemed satisfied with the explanation Dumbledore gave. Snape is intelligent, I think he would know that Dumbledore could not give an absolute answer, only what he believed would happen. As, I said, Dumbledore could only offer his guidance and opinion. Snape understood it had to be ultimately his choice, only he could know his true feelings/intentions, imo.

I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?

Dumbledore did have an answer, in my opinion, and he gave it. Snape understood the answer, and accepted it.

I took Dumbledore to mean that the soul is torn by a murder, a killing committed with an evil intent. (If Draco killed Albus on Voldemort's orders, this is what Draco would be doing.) A killing committed to spare an old man pain and humiliation, would not tear the soul. Only Snape can know what his motive is, so only he can determine whether such a killing for such a reason would harm his soul.

After this response (in question form), Snape agreed to kill Albus. I take it this means he was persuaded by Abus's answer, and no longer as concerned, because he knew he would be killing Albus for the good motive suggested.

But do you figure that even if Dumbledore couldn't give a yes or know, Snape felt that he could have given a more profound answer?

You did not find ALbus's answer profound? I did. :)

My point is that we have never seen Snape use such terms of Lupin except on a full moon night, so how can we conclude he is prejudiced based on their use?I feel that Snape could have referenced Remus by his name to Fudge and then mentioned the condition, yet he doesn't seem to bother with it.

It is strange that Fudge doesn't seem at all concerned about a werewolf loose on the grounds when he sends Macnair traipsing out to get the Dementors from their post at the gates, does he? Well, he was the executioner for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures, perhaps he knew some great trick?

But Snape did use "werewolf" the very next day when he let the secret slip to the Slytherins. Right? Well, actually........we don't know, do we? :lol:
I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?I feel that Snape had actively redeemed himself by this time and I've often considered that whatever damage he'd done to his soul prior to Lily's death was undone by his "remorse", quite similar to what happens to put the soul back together when it's been ripped apart and used to create Horcruxes. Remorse is the only way to reunify the soul.

I don't think that Dumbledore was concerned that the planned death would damage Snape's soul, because Snape was horrified at the thought of committing the act, he committed the act because he'd given his word - and I feel that despite his knowing that Dumbledore was dying of that curse, Snape bitterly regretted losing Dumbledore - who was his only real ally and IMO his only real friend at this point.

I don't think the discussion of Snape's soul was anything about what state it was in. Snape obviously felt concerned for his own soul- and wanted clarification as to how and why he was a better man for a killing than anyone else. If it was just about killing- and motivation did not matter in terms of one's sould- than DD could have allowed Draco to do it. Or anyone for that matter.

I read that the reason Dumbledore did not give Snape a definite answer to Snape in re- his soul as Dumbledore basically telling Snape - it was only Snape's to define.

i.e. Snape's motivation at the time of the killing is what would define the consequences for his soul. In that sense- what Dumbledore said was true, Only Snape would know what the act would mean. If Snape were a murderer- and his intentions were selfish - he would be killing Dumbledore out of his own desire to attain power-and then do what he wanted after that fact. Yes- his soul would be torn.

But Dumbledore obviously - and rightly- trusted Snape to do the right thing and follow through with the plan and to continue on working for Harry and the school and the Cause. He knew Snape would only carry through with Dumbledore's request for the right reasons.

So IMO DD was telling Snape- basically - to know himself and believe in himself.

i.e. Snape's motivation at the time of the killing is what would define the consequences for his soul. In that sense- what Dumbledore said was true, Only Snape would know what the act would mean. If Snape were a murderer- and his intentions were selfish - he would be killing Dumbledore out of his own desire to attain power-and then do what he wanted after that fact. Yes- his soul would be torn.

So Snape understood it to mean that it was more of a warning about forming other motives? I mean because it seems to me that he'd feel Dumbledore wouldn't ask him to do it if he thought he would form another motive, you know what I mean? That is what led me to believe it was one of those soul searching questions instead of a warning, but I am not sure Dumbledore was clear enough that Snape would understand - except that JKR may have meant to allow us to assume he understood, if that was the intent.

I do not follow the logical connection between: "So IMO DD was telling Snape- basically - to know himself and believe in himself." and a warning.

Not a warning in the sense of a threat - rather in the sense of a caution.

So Snape understood it to mean that it was more of a warning about forming other motives? I mean because it seems to me that he'd feel Dumbledore wouldn't ask him to do it if he thought he would form another motive, you know what I mean? That is what led me to believe it was one of those soul searching questions instead of a warning, but I am not sure Dumbledore was clear enough that Snape would understand - except that JKR may have meant to allow us to assume he understood, if that was the intent.

No, not a warning. A clarification. A reaffirmation, actually. Both Snape and Dumbledore knew that Snape had no other motives other than to serve and protect- as it were. If Dumbledore had an inkling of a doubt - Snape would not have had the job. As it is, of course Dumbledore trusted Snape "completely." This clarification was IMO almost a way of Dumbledore saying, "Severus, you know who you are and what you're (your soul is) worth."

Snape has lived a life of being doubted and treated as something suspect, disposable, etc and DD was the one man- at this point in time- who saw his value as a human being. I think Dumbledore- despite his Machiavellian moments- wanted Severus to understand that DD knew what Severus was worth- as a human being who had travelled avery long way and grown immensely since his DE days- and he wanted Snape to know that as well.

No, not a warning. A clarification. A reaffirmation, actually. Both Snape and Dumbledore knew that Snape had no other motives other than to serve and protect- as it were. If Dumbledore had an inkling of a doubt - Snape would not have had the job. As it is, of course Dumbledore trusted Snape "completely." This clarification was IMO almost a way of Dumbledore saying, "Severus, you know who you are and what you're (your soul is) worth."

Snape has lived a life of being doubted and treated as something suspect, disposable, etc and DD was the one man- at this point in time- who saw his value as a human being. I think Dumbledore- despite his Machiavellian moments- wanted Severus to understand that DD knew what Severus was worth- as a human being who had travelled avery long way and grown immensely since his DE days- and he wanted Snape to know that as well.

Well that makes sense also. I always saw something more in the words though because if Dumbledore wanted to say that, why not just say it? He told Snape he was valuable to him and that he trusted him - straight out. So it would seem here, if it were merely a reaffirmation of that, he'd just repeat himself.

But I was more interested in Snape's take on it because I don't think he understood Dumbledore to mean it as an affirmation. That is why I felt he questioned Dumbledore further, comparing himself to Draco. I felt like Snape understood Dumbledore's final words to mean that he should search his conscious and take caution in the future, lest he allow his motive to waiver from that which Dumbledore was offering.

That brings to mind Spinner's End and the vow because in light of Dumbledore's words, Snape's act there can be seen two ways. If Spinner's End happened before the talk (and Snape had noticed something was up with Dumbledore's hand, but hadn't yet been invited to heal it) then it is as if Dumbledore was warning (more of a threat) Snape on that front. But if Spinner's End happened afterward, and Snape knew Dumbledore was dying anyway when he made the vow (which I think is more likely) then Dumbledore may have been speaking of just such an event coming to pass (not the exact one, he couldn't know that - but something in the light of a crossroads presented for Snape). Because after Spinner's End, Snape's motive could change as his own life was in play, and make his duty worth it by looking for an advantage for himself. Dumbledore would be gone and Snape could shift to the cloak of Voldemort as his means to power if he desired.

That is not to say Snape believed Dumbledore felt he might make such a decision - but rather, that Dumbledore was presenting him with the idea that at such a crossroads, the road was dangerous if one began considering their own welfare and struggle for power over the greater good. So that is why I thought it might be more of a statement to send Snape 'searching' instead of merely affirming anything. Searching his heart and soul, prior to Dumbledore's death and making a firm commitment that would be implacable without the cloak of Dumbledore over him and with the cloak of Voldemort enveloping him (after Dumbledore's death as he would be back in the DE fold full time, at least for a spell).

Did Snape have a habit of labeling all such people, Death Eaters and the like, "werewolf"? Did he ever call Greyback this in canon? Sorry, I honestly cannot recall if he did or didn't, but I do not believe that he did.
To me that implies that his problem was with Lupin and not with werewolves in general. It seems that if you don't like someone you pick a negative feature and use it to insult them like people referring to Snape being greasy because of his hair,so to me Snape's use of the term "werewolf" to refer to Lupin is this kind of jibe. We don't assume that people are prejudiced against men with greasy hair so why assume that Severus is prejudiced against werewolves.

I always thought that the "I want you to kill me"/"what about my soul?" conversation was not only a clarification of what tears the soul, but also an indication that Snape still has a huge inferiority complex. He doesn't understand straight away that Dumbledore, by asking this of Snape is showing how much he trusts him and how different things are between them from what they were that night on the hill. Severus immediately thinks that Dumbledore is saying "We must save the boy, but you don't matter." And I think that in terms of the relationship between Albus and Severus it is a very important scene.

I always thought that the "I want you to kill me"/"what about my soul?" conversation was not only a clarification of what tears the soul, but also an indication that Snape still has a huge inferiority complex. He doesn't understand straight away that Dumbledore, by asking this of Snape is showing how much he trusts him and how different things are between them from what they were that night on the hill. Severus immediately thinks that Dumbledore is saying "We must save the boy, but you don't matter." And I think that in terms of the relationship between Albus and Severus it is a very important scene.

:tu: I absolutly agree & to me this fits very neatly with Bscorps beautiful posts today - I couldn't put it any better that the two of you have; Thank you. :D

I always thought that the "I want you to kill me"/"what about my soul?" conversation was not only a clarification of what tears the soul, but also an indication that Snape still has a huge inferiority complex. He doesn't understand straight away that Dumbledore, by asking this of Snape is showing how much he trusts him and how different things are between them from what they were that night on the hill. Severus immediately thinks that Dumbledore is saying "We must save the boy, but you don't matter." And I think that in terms of the relationship between Albus and Severus it is a very important scene.

I can see that reading of it also. But Dumbledore's answer doesn't seem to support the idea that he was trying to be reassuring. I think from Snape's point of view, he wouldn't understand it as such. He asked about his soul and he got an answer that basically said to figure it out for himself based on his motive - not his motive at the moment - but what his motve would be when he killed Dumbledore (as I understood it).

When you think about the placement of this scene - not within the internal chronology, but in terms of where it actually sat - in DH - then it makes less sense for it to be a simply reassurance scene to me because we had very straight forward scenes in that regard. This one makes it seem like Snape is being presented with a cautionary warning - and he came through it okay in the end we know - but it is perhaps supposed to be understood to mean that Dumbledore was giving Snape some final advice here because after killing him, Snape would be on his own. It is funny how there are already like 4 different views on this scene. :lol:.

Hey wwb, can you give the page number of the scene in question?

I can see that reading of it also. But Dumbledore's answer doesn't seem to support the idea that he was trying to be reassuring.

I think he was trying to something a little more important than simply be reassuring - he was trying to make Severus see his own worth.

It's like someone who thinks they're ugly even when they're not. It doesn't matter how many time you say 'you're beautiful' they are not going to buy it long term untill they can look at themselves and say it. I think it would ahve been pointless for DD to say again 'Severus you're worth while' untill he could look at himself and see that it was true. :)

Well that makes sense also. I always saw something more in the words though because if Dumbledore wanted to say that, why not just say it? He told Snape he was valuable to him and that he trusted him - straight out. So it would seem here, if it were merely a reaffirmation of that, he'd just repeat himself.



This is like a Socratic method of a teacher asking the student a question- that the teacher of course knows the answer to- and the teacher knows the student knows it as well but rather than repeating the answer over and over again- the teacher invites the student to confirm his knowledge and thus OWN the knowledge for himself. The commitment was Snape's to make, and again Dumbledore believe Snape to be up to the task on all levels, but Dumbledore wanted Snape to know he alone had the power to make it and for his own reasons.

If Spinner's End happened before the talk (and Snape had noticed something was up with Dumbledore's hand, but hadn't yet been invited to heal it) then it is as if Dumbledore was warning (more of a threat) Snape on that front.

Due to the gravity of Snape's response to Dumbledore's injury and how irritated he was that DD had waited at all - emphasizing the great risk to Dumbledore's life for delaying his action- I belive Snape was one the scene as soon as he was made aware of the injury. I don't see any canon evidence to suggest that Snape would have observed Dumbledore's injury from a distance and not be concerned with healing asap.

[ETA Correction]
Therefore, I can't see any way this meeting at Spinner's End could have possibly taken place before he had saved Dumbledore's life. Spinner's End had to come after he had saved DD's life.

No, not a warning. A clarification. A reaffirmation, actually. Both Snape and Dumbledore knew that Snape had no other motives other than to serve and protect- as it were. If Dumbledore had an inkling of a doubt - Snape would not have had the job. As it is, of course Dumbledore trusted Snape "completely." This clarification was IMO almost a way of Dumbledore saying, "Severus, you know who you are and what you're (your soul is) worth."

Snape has lived a life of being doubted and treated as something suspect, disposable, etc and DD was the one man- at this point in time- who saw his value as a human being. I think Dumbledore- despite his Machiavellian moments- wanted Severus to understand that DD knew what Severus was worth- as a human being who had travelled avery long way and grown immensely since his DE days- and he wanted Snape to know that as well.

Brilliant post! :tu: Dumbledore had watched Snape grow, change enormously in the time they worked together. Dumbledore was showing trust in Snape. :agree:

- he was trying to make Severus see his own worth.

It's like someone who thinks they're ugly even when they're not. It doesn't matter how many time you say 'you're beautiful' they are not going to buy it long term untill they can look at themselves and say it. I think it would ahve been pointless for DD to say again 'Severus you're worth while' untill he could look at himself and see that it was true. :)

Agreed - he is trying to get Snape to look at himself. Dumbledore can assert his opinion loads of times, but ultimately Snape needed to recognize and understand his worth, intentions and feelings for himself.

Therefor I can't see that this meeting at Spinner's End was any possible before he had saved Dumbledore's life.We know the Spinner's End occurs after he's treated Dumbledore's cursed hand, he specifically mentions the "recent injury" to Bella.

We know the Spinner's End occurs after he's treated Dumbledore's cursed hand, he specifically mentions the "recent injury" to Bella.

Yes. OF COURSE- That is what I meant to write !!! :p ETA- my bad writing has been corrected.

Hey wwb, can you give the page number of the scene in question?

It is in the memories in the Prince's Tale, Deathly Hallows. The page numbers differ for British and American readers, but it shouldn't be too hard to find. :)

Here it is, the excerpt:

“And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?”
“You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation,” said Dumbledore. “I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year’s league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved – I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it.”
His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him. At last Snape gave another curt nod.
Dumbledore seemed satisfied.
“Thank you, Severus…”
(bold mine)

Now, however Machiavellian Dumbledore might act in certain situations I don't think this was one of them. Dumbledore calls Snape by his first name, even though he doesn't return the favor; to me, this is a clear sign of personal attachment. The "You alone know..." part I've taken to mean "you alone know if you would regret having to do it" or, in plain English "Why ask me a question you already know the answer to" :lol:

This is like a Socratic method of a teacher asking the student a question- that the teacher of course knows the answer to- and the teacher knows the student knows it as well but rather than repeating the answer over and over again- the teacher invites the student to confirm his knowledge and thus OWN the knowledge for himself. The commitment was Snape's to make, and again Dumbledore believe Snape to be up to the task on all levels, but Dumbledore wanted Snape to know he alone had the power to make it and for his own reasons.

Well since we both believe it was before Spinner's End (see below), so then I think my second line of reasoning is more applicable. I didn't really see it as the socratic method, because it seemed to me that it was something Dumbledore actually could not know. I think he had made one of his "good guesses" as he did in the case of Harry going to the forest, but he could not control Snape's motives, so it was actually something that only Snape could control.

That part did not confused me so much - and what Dumbledore meant is a relevant point, but not what I was initially thinking about. My focus was upon Snape's initial understanding of Dumbledore's words, provoking him to question if his soul was not as important as Draco's, seems to show a certain lack of faith in Dumbledore's belief in him. This followed the events of OOTP and it is possible that Snape was simply somewhat less than confident about Dumbledore's trust in him after that - Dumbledore wasn't - but I am speaking from Snape's point of view. So maybe it was a lack of confidence that provoked his response. That is what I was saying above - one would think that Snape would not feel that Dumbledore felt his soul was worth anything less than Draco's -OH!

...I just had another thought. The memories were not in order...isn't that true? So maybe this conversation came after the one in which Snape had found out Dumbledore had been using him for all of those years - that might have caused him to feel that Dumbledore was using him again in this situation, careless of his soul as he had been of his motive for helping out in the other situation...

Okay, but assuming this scene came first, then we only have OOTP that would leave Snape feeling like Dumbledore didn't trust him so much. And actually if the above scene came afterward, there is more proof because that scene starts out with Snape complaining about Dumbledore's lack of trust in him. Man - this is starting to link together a whole lot of details. :lol:. Because if this whole lack of trust stuff came after OOTP, then it is the events there that would perhaps serve as the impetus. I have to read this little passage again...more later...

Due to the gravity of Snape's response to Dumbledore's injury and how irritated he was that DD had waited at all - emphasizing the great risk to Dumbledore's life for delaying his action- I belive Snape was one the scene as soon as he was made aware of the injury. I don't see any canon evidence to suggest that Snape would have observed Dumbledore's injury from a distance and not be concerned with healing asap.
Therefore, I can't see any way this meeting at Spinner's End could have possibly taken place before he had saved Dumbledore's life. Spinner's End had to come after he had saved DD's life.

Yeah, I figured it was after also, but I was just covering all bases so I didn't have to discuss that point since the conclusion would be fairly short. ;)

...I just had another thought. The memories were not in order...isn't that true? So maybe this conversation came after the one in which Snape had found out Dumbledore had been using him for all of those years - that might have caused him to feel that Dumbledore was using him again in this situation, careless of his soul as he had been of his motive for helping out in the other situation...:shrug: I think the "using me" convo occurred Feb/March - in Prince.

Ron was love potioned/wine poisoned on his birthday, right? March 1, I think it is. That's the night that Harry and Hermione hear from Hagrid that he'd overheard part of a convo with Dumbledore and Snape arguing...that argument was shown to have ended with him telling Snape to come to his office and he'd tell him everything...I think.

Next scene flashes to the "used me" convo.

Right - so if it came afterward, it would be the second scenario - but it continues to carry the same theme: Snape believes Dumbledore lacks faith/trust in him. But in the scene we are discussing, it wasn't a matter of keeping things from Snape - because Dumbledore was disclosing things. So this sounds more like a build up of feeling on Snape's part - perhaps in the wake of OOTP. Now something Meesha (another poster) said is starting to make a lot more sense to me - not that it didn't, but it suddenly fits very well. The whole manner in which the DOM matter played out and that included Snape cutting off the Occlucmeny lessons, his actions after Harry told him that Voldy had Padfoot, and the consequences that ensued, including the death, the round up and Harry's possession - plus Voldemort being exposed as having come back.

Again, from Dumbledore's standpoint, he just keeps planning away and making adjustments. But Snape is not being told things as the plan is formed - according to him. So it is possible that in the wake of OOTP, he believes that Dumbledore blames him and has lost some faith or something along those lines. Then the next thing you know, Dumbledore is asking him to kill him and speaking about saving Draco's soul. :lol:. So that might explain why Snape would be insecure about Dumbledore's faith in him at that point. But Dumbledore only addresses the soul issue - and he might mean all of the other things people have been saying, but I don't think Snape understood any of that at the time because he continued to feel that Dumbledore lacked faith in him and was keeping things from him. Which all might be complicated by his treatment of Harry and the other kids, which I suspect Snape understood was not something Dumbledore approved of, and perhaps believed that was part of it. In which case, imo, he'd blame the trio, mainly Harry, because Harry was special to Dumbledore in his view at that point. Harry was the one Snape mentioned in that other scene (something about Dumbledore would tell Harry things but not him.) So that might also explain, skipping ahead, why Snape behaved toward Harry the way he did as he escaped Hogwarts - because realistically that made no sense. Snape knew Harry had to die - yet he gave him no quarter that evening either by word or action. So perhaps that is how all of this is supposed to link together.

I have a new question on a different topic. When Snape was speaking to Dumbledore about his soul; do you guys feel that Dumbledore truly did not have an answer for Snape - or do you feel he just wanted Snape to work it out for himself? I am asking in terms of Snape - how do you think he interpreted Dumbledore's comment?

I'm in line with annielogic here for the most part. I think Dumbledore felt Snape needed to decide the state of his soul on his own. Dumbledore merely provided a separate way of seeing it. Snape could only look at it as murder.... which is actually kind of interesting actually.

In the end it had to be Snape that agreed to do it or not. And with that choice he had to weigh what it might do to his soul. The concern he has for his soul tells me he is concerned for the state it is in, logically from his actions as a DE. Snape could refuse do do what Dumbledore asked and save his soul, or he could actually do it damage since he knew what kind of death the closest thing he'd ever had to a friend after Lily. Or he could do it and risk fracturing his soul because of the act, or he could see it as an act of kindness. I think Dumbledore told him how he saw it. But in the end Snape had to decide for himself. Iin the end, no matter what Dumbledore believed, Snape hd to decide if it was worth the risk to his soul or if there were a risk at all.

To me that implies that his problem was with Lupin and not with werewolves in general. It seems that if you don't like someone you pick a negative feature and use it to insult them like people referring to Snape being greasy because of his hair,so to me Snape's use of the term "werewolf" to refer to Lupin is this kind of jibe. We don't assume that people are prejudiced against men with greasy hair so why assume that Severus is prejudiced against werewolves.

I always thought that the "I want you to kill me"/"what about my soul?" conversation was not only a clarification of what tears the soul, but also an indication that Snape still has a huge inferiority complex. He doesn't understand straight away that Dumbledore, by asking this of Snape is showing how much he trusts him and how different things are between them from what they were that night on the hill. Severus immediately thinks that Dumbledore is saying "We must save the boy, but you don't matter." And I think that in terms of the relationship between Albus and Severus it is a very important scene.

ITA. very well said. :agree:

Snape is not deluded or imagining that there is something he is not being told because he is insecure. There is something that he is not being told. And from a strictly rational perspective, gievn all Snape knows at the time he acts, it is something that he needs to know in order to be able to play the part he has agreed to play.

In the plainest terms - how can Snape keep Harry Potter safe once Albus is dead and Harry is up to something Snape knows nothing about? How could anyone? It makes no sense. I can see it, and I am sure Snape could too.

The answer he gets, in the end, is that he does not need to know, because Albus no longer needs him to help keep Harry safe. Harry has to die.

Snape is not deluded or imagining that there is something he is not being told because he is insecure. There is something that he is not being told. And from a strictly rational perspective, gievn all Snape knows at the time he acts, it is something that he needs to know in order to be able to play the part he has agreed to play.

In the plainest terms - how can Snape keep Harry Potter safe once Albus is dead and Harry is up to something Snape knows nothing about? How could anyone? It makes no sense. I can see it, and I am sure Snape could too.

The answer he gets, in the end, is that he does not need to know, because Albus no longer needs him to help keep Harry safe. Harry has to die.

Yeah but we know that in hindsight, Snape didn't know that at the time. But Snape is not the only person keeping Harry safe, many people in the Order are doing just that - and people like Hagrid and McGonagall were doing it all the while at the school also. But Snape was particularly anxious about it, and he admitted that he was upset about Dumbledore's lack of faith in him. We don't hear others voicing that worry and I doubt Dumbledore told them all everything either.

I don't really follow the idea that Snape was worried about it because he wouldn't be able to do his duty. After all, that was Dumbledore's main purpose (protecting Harry) and Snape couldn't have believed that Dumbledore wouldn't do all in his power to keep Harry safe since that was his goal. That would include informing all Order members and others helping to protect Harry what they had to do to help. So I don't feel that was Snape's underlying reason. For example, Snape's question was "what about my soul? Mine?" which was an accusation that Dumbledore was neglecting him - the outcome of his soul - and that had nothing to do with protecting Harry. So it appears there was more to it, an overall feeling of insecurity pertaining to Dumbledore's trust in, and regard for him, imo.

So how do you define a "dark creature" ? All of the creatures that Harry and his year studied under Lupin are classed as Dark Creatures. Grindylows, Kappas, Boggarts were all classed as Dark Creatures and all seemed to be creatures that by their very nature (rather than by choice) were magical and dangerous to humans, which seems to indicate the criteria necessary to be classed as a Dark Creature. By this definition Werewolves are Dark Creatures. It is in their nature to harm humans (when transformed) as much as it is in the nature of a grindylow to harm humans. If these creatures were not classed as Dark Creatures then they would have been studied in "Care of Magical Creatures" rather than Defence against the Dark Arts. So according to the wizarding world that JKR created werewolves are classed as Dark Creatures. Therefore I cannot see naming Lupin, who is a werewolf, as a Dark Creature as prejudice becasue that is what he is.

That's such an excellent point, Cathy - well said. The chapter about Werewolves was in the DADA book, so therefore they are "Dark." Any creature that can harm a human being is considered Dark, and humans are the only thing a Werewolf will harm, therefore Werewolves are also Dark.

Snape is good at drawing those sorts of logical conclusions. :D

My two cents about Snape's soul: from a religious perspective I believe Snape wanted to keep his soul in good condition and not damage it. DH is clear that Lily is in the afterlife somewhere or else she wouldn't have appeared to Harry in the forest. I believe Lily is Snape's main motivation, so if he ever hoped to see her again in the afterlife, he must care about his soul.

It's easy to overthink this, but Snape would no more want to have a twisted soul than Harry would. They are both trying to do the right thing for the greater good without becoming anything like Voldemort.

But Dumbledore's request does pose a moral and ethical dillemma for Snape, and he was letting Dumbledore know that.

When Dumbledore tells Snape to think about it, he is literally telling him to do some "soul-searching" and realize that "it's not murder if you're already dead." Dumbledore was going to die about three different ways - the hand, the potion, or Draco was going to kill him.

Out of respect and fondness for Dumbledore, Snape is willing to go the distance for him, as far as he needs to go. If that means a mercy killing, then that's what he has to do, but from the way he looks as he is doing it, he already feels remorse.

He has "pre-remorse" so to speak. :lol:

My two cents about Snape's soul: from a religious perspective I believe Snape wanted to keep his soul in good condition and not damage it. DH is clear that Lily is in the afterlife somewhere or else she wouldn't have appeared to Harry in the forest. I believe Lily is Snape's main motivation, so if he ever hoped to see her again in the afterlife, he must care about his soul.

It's easy to overthink this, but Snape would no more want to have a twisted soul than Harry would. They are both trying to do the right thing for the greater good without becoming anything like Voldemort.

But Dumbledore's request does pose a moral and ethical dillemma for Snape, and he was letting Dumbledore know that.

When Dumbledore tells Snape to think about it, he is literally telling him to do some "soul-searching" and realize that "it's not murder if you're already dead." Dumbledore was going to die about three different ways - the hand, the potion, or Draco was going to kill him.

Out of respect and fondness for Dumbledore, Snape is willing to go the distance for him, as far as he needs to go. If that means a mercy killing, then that's what he has to do, but from the way he looks as he is doing it, he already feels remorse.

He has "pre-remorse" so to speak. :lol:

That is so well put, silver ink pot. Snape understands the difference between his and Draco's motivations, and he probably understands them before even posing the question, however, we have learned that he is not a cold and evil person so he doesn't really like the idea that he must kill the one and only person who has absolute confidence in him and who has helped him so much.

If we think about it: after Dumbledore's death Snape is left utterly alone. One side believes him to be a murderer and he becomes an outcast, on the the other side - though they consider him to be one of theirs - also hate him somewhat, envious of his position, but what is more important: Snape does not truly belong there. He is left alone, and he probably knew it will come to that, be even so, he can't have been overjoyed about it...

But Snape is not the only person keeping Harry safe, many people in the Order are doing just that - and people like Hagrid and McGonagall were doing it all the while at the school also. But Snape was particularly anxious about it, and he admitted that he was upset about Dumbledore's lack of faith in him. We don't hear others voicing that worry and I doubt Dumbledore told them all everything either.

But Severus was the only person who knew Dumbledore was dying. It's one thing to know someone is keepng secrets when you believe that they will be around for the forseeabe future - it quite another thing when you know they will die soon and take those secrets with them.

That is imo why Severus was suddenly so axious about Dumbledore keeping all his secrets about Voldemort.

But Severus was the only person who knew Dumbledore was dying. It's one thing to know someone is keepng secrets when you believe that they will be around for the forseeabe future - it quite another thing when you know they will die soon and take those secrets with them.

That is imo why Severus was suddenly so axious about Dumbledore keeping all his secrets about Voldemort.

In truth, I haven't been discussing the "why" - I just used the word "insecure", meaning not secure in Dumbledore's trust and faith in him. The reason why would just lend to that feeling of insecurity, imo. But what I was saying was that it was not a quest for knowledge about protecting Harry that provoked Snape to ask "what about my soul? Mine?" So to me, that was more of the same type of showing of insecurity - but about how Dumbledore regarded him. So he may have had feelings of insecurity on other issues as well, but I felt that particular scene referred to his feelings about how Dumbledore viewed him. That is what I was analysing, where those feelings arose and I looked to OOTP.

I didn't really see it as the socratic method, because it seemed to me that it was something Dumbledore actually could not know. I think he had made one of his "good guesses" as he did in the case of Harry going to the forest, but he could not control Snape's motives, so it was actually something that only Snape could control.
Dumbledore does not need to "control" Snape's motives in order to know what they are. Dumbledore knows Severus and as such knows his motives. Dumbledore says that only Severus can know if his motives are "pure" and therefore whether the killing will damage his soul. What Dumbledore is saying by asking Severus i that he (Dumbledore) knows Snape's motives are "pure" - that he trusts him absolutely.

If we think about it: after Dumbledore's death Snape is left utterly alone. One side believes him to be a murderer and he becomes an outcast, on the the other side - though they consider him to be one of theirs - also hate him somewhat, envious of his position, but what is more important: Snape does not truly belong there. He is left alone, and he probably knew it will come to that, be even so, he can't have been overjoyed about it... :agree: I think Severus must also have been aware that he was living on borrowed time - that his own death was approahing - because if the Order didn't kill him then the Death Eaters would when they eventually found out he was working for Dumbledore. Actually that is one good thing that can be said about his death - He didn't die at the hands of either the Order (who would have felt terrible once the truth was out) or by the hands of a Death Eater (which would have meant his cover had been blown) So he remained undiscovered as a spy 'til the end, and did not die at the hands of a "friend" Yay for Snape! :clap:

That is what I was analysing, where those feelings arose and I looked to OOTP. I think Severus was always insecure because of his childhood. To me that is obvious. Afterall that is why he wanted to become a Death Eater - because he was insecure and wanted to be part of something big and powerful. Thise insecurities didn't just disappear. In fact IMO they got worse because of the mistakes he had made. So I don't think we have to look fr a specific reason for Snape to feel insecure - it was how he had always felt and nothing had happened in his life to allay those insecurities and make him feel that he was a worthwhile person.

Dumbledore does not need to "control" Snape's motives in order to know what they are. Dumbledore knows Severus and as such knows his motives. Dumbledore says that only Severus can know if his motives are "pure" and therefore whether the killing will damage his soul. What Dumbledore is saying by asking Severus i that he (Dumbledore) knows Snape's motives are "pure" - that he trusts him absolutely.

I dunno what Dumbledore meant, but I was more thinking about what Snape understood him to mean. I would agree with SilverInkPot that it was a statement to send Snape searching himself for the answer.

I think Severus was always insecure because of his childhood. To me that is obvious. Afterall that is why he wanted to become a Death Eater - because he was insecure and wanted to be part of something big and powerful. Thise insecurities didn't just disappear. In fact IMO they got worse because of the mistakes he had made. So I don't think we have to look fr a specific reason for Snape to feel insecure - it was how he had always felt and nothing had happened in his life to allay those insecurities and make him feel that he was a worthwhile person.

That could be true too - it might just be that he had always felt that way. I was thinking that Snape was confident in as far as Dumbledore was concerned earlier on, but thinking back on various events, I think that idea has merit. For example the occassions when Dumbledore sent Snape away while standing up for Harry (over the car and the shack fiascos) - or like when he read his paper and ignored Snape's volley of words against Harry in his office in DH; perhaps those types of things would encourage the the insecurities along rather than allow them to abate. The events in OOTP could have been more of the same. So yeah that too could be the reason.

reopened. April Fools day posts moved into separate thread here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=120146) for now.

I think Severus was always insecure because of his childhood. To me that is obvious. Afterall that is why he wanted to become a Death Eater - because he was insecure and wanted to be part of something big and powerful. Thise insecurities didn't just disappear. In fact IMO they got worse because of the mistakes he had made. So I don't think we have to look fr a specific reason for Snape to feel insecure - it was how he had always felt and nothing had happened in his life to allay those insecurities and make him feel that he was a worthwhile person.

I agree. Everything from his childhood lead to where he ended up IMO. And when he realized he made a mistake, and just how big it was, he began to doubt himself even more. Sadly I don't think he ever gained that personal confidence.

Don't get me wrong, he was confident in his magical skills, in his potion making skills, etc, but as a person he was still that little boy sitting on the floor crying while his parents screamed.

I agree. Everything from his childhood lead to where he ended up IMO. And when he realized he made a mistake, and just how big it was, he began to doubt himself even more. Sadly I don't think he ever gained that personal confidence.

Don't get me wrong, he was confident in his magical skills, in his potion making skills, etc, but as a person he was still that little boy sitting on the floor crying while his parents screamed.

My interpretation was that a lot of characters were in a similar situation (Sirius, Lupin, Harry, Neville) - but the point was that some characters did eventually pick themselves up off the floor and stop crying. I agree that Snape's inability to do so resulted in his continued feelings of insecurity, but I truly believe that he was responsible for keeping himself from growth in that regard. His characteristic of "intense and enduring focus" (grudge holding, emotions for Lily, dark arts fascination, attitude toward the kids, etc.) prohibited him from taking forward strides in gaining security and letting go of his acute vulnerability, imo. It is tough to overcome characteristic traits of that type though, so I feel Snape was written fairly realistically in that sense. But I feel that sorta thing eats away at person from the inside and inhibits emotional growth and maturity - also captured well in the character/personality of Snape, imo.

My interpretation was that a lot of characters were in a similar situation (Sirius, Lupin, Harry, Neville) - but the point was that some characters did eventually pick themselves up off the floor and stop crying. I agree that Snape's inability to do so resulted in his continued feelings of insecurity, but I truly believe that he was responsible for keeping himself from growth in that regard. His characteristic of "intense and enduring focus" (grudge holding, emotions for Lily, dark arts fascination, attitude toward the kids, etc.) prohibited him from taking forward strides in gaining security and letting go of his acute vulnerability, imo. It is tough to overcome characteristic traits of that type though, so I feel Snape was written fairly realistically in that sense. But I feel that sorta thing eats away at person from the inside and inhibits emotional growth and maturity - also captured well in the character/personality of Snape, imo.

ITA actually... I think Snape's biggest flaw was his insecurities. Because, in the end, they are the root of all his other issues. His long term grudges against the Maurauders, his dislike of Harry, his inability to form any solid relationships (OF course the whole double agent thing played into this as well), his need for power and to prove himself.

Snape's inability to move on, to reclaim himself from the disaster of his childhood, is what made him who he was. Right or wrong, he was never able to overcome it completely. In the end, he was trying, but there were still thing he clung to that were part of it still IMO.

Perhaps his insecurities lingered so long because he was so good at shutting down and walling off his emotions? It's the reason why he was so good at Occlumency. If you shut 'em down and wall 'em off, you never actually "deal" with them. If you don't "deal" with them, there's very little room for growth or healing.

Perhaps his insecurities lingered so long because he was so good at shutting down and walling off his emotions? It's the reason why he was so good at Occlumency. If you shut 'em down and wall 'em off, you never actually "deal" with them. If you don't "deal" with them, there's very little room for growth or healing.

I think that's part of it. I also think the fact he had no one who taught him how to deal with things had a lot of do with it. Most of what we saw of his interactions with Lily were more about him teaching her about the magical world. When she tried to find out about his home life he shut her out of that. Maybe he didn't want that part of his world tainting her, maybe he was embarrassed, maybe he thought she'd reject him, maybe he didn't understand how to share that part of himself, even with her. Or maybe all and none of the above.

His lack of confidence in himself also plays back, IMO< to the question of if his soul would be damaged when he killed Dumbledore. I feel Dumbledore felt this was a question only Snape could answer on his own. All Dumbledore could do was offer the way he saw it, but ultimately Snape had to decide for himself. If Snape lacked confidence in who he was, what he was, it was more likely to alter his soul in some way. If he knew in his heart that what he did was actually for the good, for lack of a better word, then there was less of an issue with what it might do to his soul.

I think that's part of it. I also think the fact he had no one who taught him how to deal with things had a lot of do with it. Most of what we saw of his interactions with Lily were more about him teaching her about the magical world. When she tried to find out about his home life he shut her out of that. Maybe he didn't want that part of his world tainting her, maybe he was embarrassed, maybe he thought she'd reject him, maybe he didn't understand how to share that part of himself, even with her. Or maybe all and none of the above.

I don't think security is something one learns from others; in my view it is something one has to develop themselves. In addition to the negative aspects of his character building on his insecurities, he was also a disregarding sort of individual at times. He didn't care for his hygiene, despite it being brought to his attention in negative terms. That moved with him through adulthood when he is described as having the same greasy hair, sallow skin, yellowing teeth, etc. If he didn't bother caring for himself on the outside, it makes sense that he'd be disregarding of himself on the inside as well. He was disregarding of Lily, his enemies, his friends (both as a DE and Order member) and of his student's sensibilities. That is why I have always felt he was disregarding of his school work as well and never cited as being particularly smart when young. He just didn't care about some important things to the extent he should and instead seemed to narrowly focus on a select few things.

To me, Snape's insecurities were displayed a lot, from his inability to laugh at himself (Neville's Boggart) to his arrogantly declaring to Lockheart that He was the potions master - I mean Lockheart of all people - if one must be arrogant with him, then one's self image isn't too high, imo. So I agree insecurity played a big role, but again, it was worsened by Snape himself with his disregarding attitude and other personality traits, imo. I would disagree, respectfully, that Lily played a role in it at all, if anything, she helped him out a little in that regard, imo - because he was pretty arrogant with her too.

I don't think security is something one learns from others; in my view it is something one has to develop themselves.

I agree. But that security is developed faster when there is an encouraging home environment, which Snape clearly did not have. He did have Lily, which I think would have helped his self-esteem and self-confidence, but would not substitute one he should have received from his parents IMO.

That moved with him through adulthood when he is described as having the same greasy hair, sallow skin, yellowing teeth, etc. If he didn't bother caring for himself on the outside, it makes sense that he'd be disregarding of himself on the inside as well.

Apart from his underpants which are a sign of neglect and that too because of Lily's comment to wash them, I don't think greasy hair, yellow teeth and sallow skin are an indication of his neglect.

I don't know how to take Lily's comment. Was it one because his underpants were really dirty or was she being cutting and sarcastic because of his words to her just a second earlier? I don't know.

Greasy hair is something Snape can't help and neither can he help the way his skin is IMO. Yellow teeth is something we see when he is Potions Maaster. I don't think yellow teeth are mentioned when he was a kid or a student.

In which case, yellow teeth could very well be caused by potion fumes.

So, I don't know if Snape was lacking in personal hygine and I refuse to take JKR's words for this, for she clearly has a different opinion of Snape from me. :)

He was disregarding of Lily, his enemies, his friends (both as a DE and Order member) and of his student's sensibilities.

I respectfully disagree. Loving someone does not mean one needs to agree with what the other says. Snape would have been benefitted to agree with Lily; he made wrong choices that went on to hurt him badly. But I don't think it means he was disregarding of Lily IMO.

As an Order member, I don't think Snape was trusted for himself. All along people tolerated him, not accepted him, but tolerated him because of Dumbledore. Remus even says so in HBP. And Sirius arefused to believe anad agree with Dumbledore in OOTP (Occlumenacy Chapter)

That attitude is not going to make Snape behave in a very cordial manner IMO. His relationship with the Order members were a 2 way system. And I don't they behaved in such a manner to make him comfortable or accepted.

That is why I have always felt he was disregarding of his school work as well and never cited as being particularly smart when young. He just didn't care about some important things to the extent he should and instead seemed to narrowly focus on a select few things.

I respectfully disagree. His work displayed in Advanced Potion making and Slughorn's comments make me feel the opposite. I think he was brilliant, but he was a Slytherin and probably that acheievement went unnoticed IMO.

I don't know how to take Lily's comment. Was it one because his underpants were really dirty or was she being cutting and sarcastic because of his words to her just a second earlier? I don't know.

I respect your quandary on this issue. I just take her comment at face value because it correlates with the other hygiene factors we learned about Snape.

Greasy hair is something Snape can't help and neither can he help the way his skin is IMO. Yellow teeth is something we see when he is Potions Maaster. I don't think yellow teeth are mentioned when he was a kid or a student. In which case, yellow teeth could very well be caused by potion fumes. So, I don't know if Snape was lacking in personal hygine and I refuse to take JKR's words for this, for she clearly has a different opinion of Snape from me. :)

Well again, it is a matter of interpretation, and I respect your view. But my impression of the canon was that he disregarded his heath (hence the skin) and brushing his teeth (hence the yellow) and did not bother washing his hair (hence the grease). That is how I interpreted the book, without any input from JKR. That is why I felt these factors highlighted Snape's overall personality trait of being disregarding of those things that he was not focused upon. But we all have our differing opinions on this issue.

I respectfully disagree. Loving someone does not mean one needs to agree with what the other says. Snape would have been benefitted to agree with Lily; he made wrong choices that went on to hurt him badly. But I don't think it means he was disregarding of Lily IMO.

I didn't mean because he disagreed with Lily. I was referring to when he didn't answer her questions and turned the topic during their conversations. He did that when older also, imo, when he did not wish to address a particular topic.

As an Order member, I don't think Snape was trusted for himself. All along people tolerated him, not accepted him, but tolerated him because of Dumbledore. Remus even says so in HBP. And Sirius arefused to believe anad agree with Dumbledore in OOTP (Occlumenacy Chapter)

That attitude is not going to make Snape behave in a very cordial manner IMO. His relationship with the Order members were a 2 way system. And I don't they behaved in such a manner to make him comfortable or accepted.

I agree, but I believe the reason they could only be civil and have trust because Dumbledore told them to, was because of Snape's general behavior and attitude. If he would have behaved in a pleasant and kind manner, then I feel the attitudes of the Order members would have adjusted accordingly. But they had nothing to go on with Snape because he kept himself isolated and did not behave in a friendly manner with others, imo.

I respectfully disagree. His work displayed in Advanced Potion making and Slughorn's comments make me feel the opposite. I think he was brilliant, but he was a Slytherin and probably that acheievement went unnoticed IMO.

Well again, it is just a difference in interpretation. My overall impression was that Snape was often disregarding of things he was not focused upon. I gave a number of examples to explain what I meant and this aspect was just one of many. I was not speaking of Snape's intellect, rather a lack of focus in general on that which he didn't feel important. :) In the scheme of the story, this factor came into play in certain key moments, imo, and furthered along the storyline. So I think it was necessary for Snape to have the trait.

That is why I have always felt he was disregarding of his school work as well and never cited as being particularly smart when young. He just didn't care about some important things to the extent he should and instead seemed to narrowly focus on a select few things.

I respectfully disagree. I think we see evidence of how seriously Snape took his school work when we see him pouring over the OWL paper in SWM. It is exactly the same type of behaviour we see from Hermiione, who liked to go through every exam afterwards much to Ron's annoyance.

I respectfully disagree. I think we see evidence of how seriously Snape took his school work when we see him pouring over the OWL paper in SWM. It is exactly the same type of behaviour we see from Hermiione, who liked to go through every exam afterwards much to Ron's annoyance.

Well we can all agree to disagree on this point, I didn't mean for us to get stuck on it. :) My main idea was to introduce a different idea that helped explain an aspect of Snape's character that may have played a role in his feelings of insecurity. I felt like the fact that some things he did not feel were important, actually meant more to him in the long run than he figured. So his disregard of them, would at times lead to unforeseen situations, calling forth his vulnerability and insecurities. That was the main proposition.

I agree, but I believe the reason they could only be civil and have trust because Dumbledore told them to, was because of Snape's general behavior and attitude.

We don't know that. For all we know the Order could have treated him suspiciously because he was a Slytherin and because like Sirius says in GOF, Snape was famous for knowing the Dark Arts in School IMO.

People like Moody and Sirius and perhaps even others like Arthur and Remus may not been very welcoming towards Snape, when he would have been introduced by Dumbledore as a Member of the Order IMO.

We don't know that. For all we know the Order could have treated him suspiciously because he was a Slytherin and because like Sirius says in GOF, Snape was famous for knowing the Dark Arts in School IMO.

People like Moody and Sirius and perhaps even others like Arthur and Remus may not been very welcoming towards Snape, when he would have been introduced by Dumbledore as a Member of the Order IMO.

I agree! I think it would be quite natural for the Order members to be somewhat suspicious of Snape knowing his past. And, I really can't see Sirius and Snape sitting down to tea together. :lol: Although, I do wonder if Headquarters was not the home of Sirius, would Snape have stayed longer than just to give reports, my guess is probaby not.
I think that Snape neither expected to be welcomed, or even wanted to be. I think it suited him the way it was, and it probably even helped him to keep a distance from the other Order members when it came to his dealings with Voldemort.

We don't know that. For all we know the Order could have treated him suspiciously because he was a Slytherin and because like Sirius says in GOF, Snape was famous for knowing the Dark Arts in School IMO.

People like Moody and Sirius and perhaps even others like Arthur and Remus may not been very welcoming towards Snape, when he would have been introduced by Dumbledore as a Member of the Order IMO.

Oh, I see what you mean. I agree, they likely were suspicious and non trusting right off the bat because he was an ex Death Eater. But that would pass in time, just as they had to learn to trust him in time because Dumbledore told them to. What I meant was that over time, if Snape had had behaved nicely and kindly, they may have come to trust them on their own and actually wish to be civil to him - rather than being forced to be so because Dumbledore told them to. No one had to be nice to Snape or anyone else, everyone had to earn the right to be treated with more than civilty. Snape behaved disregarding toward the members and unkind to them in canon (Arthur returning from the hospital; Tonks delivering Harry) - and of course he didn't like Sirius and Remus, so he would treat them even worse, imo. So I feel his behavior was not conducive to anyone gaining trust in him or coming to like him on their own. They had to be forced by Dumbledore to trust him and I don't think anyone actually liked him, although most were civil I'd imagine. I agree with Treacle, I don't think Snape cared and in this way he was disregarding of the members, imo. But it is this type of thing that would prevent the Order from questioning that Snape could kill Dumbledore or be a real DE, imo. His behavior throughout prevented people like Lupin from even considering that he might have an innocent motive - something he did for Sirius, giving him a chance to explain. But Snape hadn't given Lupin or any of the other Order members any reason to trust or have faith in him.

What I meant was that over time, if Snape had had behaved nicely and kindly, they may have come to trust them on their own and actually wish to be civil to him - rather than being forced to be so because Dumbledore told them to.

Interesting theory, wick. However, this would imply that at least some members of the order would be ready to offer trust in exchange for social pleasantries. Somehow, even I am more than likely to give more credit to Sirius&Co than that.

No one had to be nice to Snape or anyone else, everyone had to earn the right to be treated with more than civilty.

I agree. And I failed to see most of the Order members earn that right in Snape's eyes. In readers', perhaps... but not in Snape's, the way he was written.

Interesting theory, wick. However, this would imply that at least some members of the order would be ready to offer trust in exchange for social pleasantries. Somehow, even I am more than likely to give more credit to Sirius&Co than that.

:lol: I didn't mean those who already disliked him. I meant the objective members, like Kingsley, who maybe have only been put off by his having been a Death Eater and the fact that he would be a spy in Voldy's camp.

I agree. And I failed to see most of the Order members earn that right in Snape's eyes. In readers', perhaps... but not in Snape's, the way he was written.

Well it is the new guy in, the ex Death Eater that has to be accepted into the group. They all already accepted one another on their own terms. But Snape as a newcomer would have to meld - easy enough, except that his background and the fact that he was a 'spy' would make people hesitant at first, imo. His subsequent attitude and behavior would not help matters, but could have if he'd had a better disposition, imo. So they accepted him because Dumbledore said to - not because Snape gave them any reason to, imo.

Oh, I see what you mean. I agree, they likely were suspicious and non trusting right off the bat because he was an ex Death Eater.

Did everyone know he was a DE? Sirius seems unaware of it in GOF. I presume no one knew apart from Dumbledore.

But that would pass in time, just as they had to learn to trust him in time because Dumbledore told them to. What I meant was that over time, if Snape had had behaved nicely and kindly, they may have come to trust them on their own and actually wish to be civil to him - rather than being forced to be so because Dumbledore told them to.

Well I would take it as Snape being the odd man out as a Slytherin and as someone who was famous for his knowledge of the dark arts and for hanging around DE wannabes, while in School.

So with that in mind, I think it would fall to the others to make him feel that his House and his fascination for the dark arts would not place him in the DE slot or look at him as a spy for Voldemort like Sirius almost accused Snape in OOTP, when he was introduced by Dumbledore.

I don't know if they would be able to see through that and if they did not, then Snape would naturally be on the defencive and that relationship between Snape and the Order would at best be prickly.

No one had to be nice to Snape or anyone else, everyone had to earn the right to be treated with more than civilty.

I agree; but did the others treat him civilly without suspicion when he was first introduced to the Order? Seeing who the Order was made up of, and Remus's comments as late as HBP and Sirius's view of Snape in OOTP, I would say the Order did not take well to him, but was forced to accept him because Dumbledore did.

In which case, I don't think Snape would even think to be pleasant or civil, especially seeing the job he was doing for the Order.

If he was not even regarded as a trustworthy Order member, let alone a friend, then I don't think Snape would exchange pleasantries where he knew he was not trusted or wanted with any member of the Order.

So they accepted him because Dumbledore said to - not because Snape gave them any reason to, imo.
I'm not even sure he was accepted - I think he was tolerated because Dumbledore trusted him. Being the naturally taciturn man he was I think it would be hard for him to "join in" - I also think that being a spy automatically makes it difficult for you to form attachments. If Snape had been very close to any Order members he would have been expectd to betray them on Voldemort's return. As it was Snape was not particular friends with any of the Order (like for example Wormtail was in VW I) so that predicament was avoided.

Did everyone know he was a DE? Sirius seems unaware of it in GOF. I presume no one knew apart from Dumbledore.

Moody would have known about Snape as he was present at the trial where Dumbledore defended Snape, when Karkaroff accused Snape of being a DE. Also, Sirius was present in his animagus form in GoF, when Snape revealed his mark to Fudge. So, I think probably most Order members would have been aware of Snape's ex-DE status, depending how much they all liked to gossip.:lol:

I agree; but did the others treat him civilly without suspicion when he was first introduced to the Order? Seeing who the Order was made up of, and Remus's comments as late as HBP and Sirius's view of Snape in OOTP, I would say the Order did not take well to him, but was forced to accept him because Dumbledore did.

In which case, I don't think Snape would even think to be pleasant or civil, especially seeing the job he was doing for the Order.

If he was not even regarded as a trustworthy Order member, let alone a friend, then I don't think Snape would exchange pleasantries where he knew he was not trusted or wanted with any member of the Order.

I think the Order members would have become even more suspicious of Snape if he started exchanging pleasantries with them.:lol:

I think the Order members would have become even more suspicious of Snape if he started exchanging pleasantries with them.:lol:

LOL! :D

I do think Sirius was unaware of Snape being a DE when he talks to the Trio in the cave (I think it's in the Padfoot Returns chapter), but yes, everyone would have known by the end of GOF that Snape had been a DE or that Snape had taken the mark in order to spy for them. Except Moody who like you said knew before hand and who was suspicious about Snape even in Karakoff's trial, when Dumbledore offered an explanation IMO.

LOL! :D

I do think Sirius was unaware of Snape being a DE when he talks to the Trio in the cave (I think it's in the Padfoot Returns chapter), but yes, everyone would have known by the end of GOF that Snape had been a DE or that Snape had taken the mark in order to spy for them. Except Moody who like you said knew before hand and who was suspicious about Snape even in Karakoff's trial, when Dumbledore offered an explanation IMO.

That's right! During the trial when Dumbledore defends Snape, Moody is described as 'wearing a look of deep scepticism behind Dumbledore's back.' So, I very much doubt trhat he welcomed Snape to the Order with open arms.

I don't think security is something one learns from others; in my view it is something one has to develop themselves.

There is a lot of evidence that security is learnt in the first years of life (See Ainsworth, Bowlby, Erikson, & Klien, for starters). If we grow up without anyone helping us learn what security is, or without any actual security ( either in our environment or in the people surrounding us) then our ability to learn to introject a sense of security is severely impeded.

However what we do with it as adults is, as least party, up to us - assuming od course that we have been in a position to learn security in the first place. :)

In Severus’s case I don’t think he would have been in a good position to learn about security – some of his physical needs (e.g. appropriate clothing) were not cared for adequately, and it seems doubtful to me that his home life as a child was secure – the only thing we see of it was both scary and sad.

If he didn't bother caring for himself on the outside, it makes sense that he'd be disregarding of himself on the inside as well.

I actually see this as being the other way around – that he didn’t care about himself internally so he didn’t look after the outside of himself either. :)

Moody would have known about Snape as he was present at the trial where Dumbledore defended Snape, when Karkaroff accused Snape of being a DE.

:tu: However I imagine Moody being aware of the importance of keeping certain things quiet. While I'm very sure he would have discussed the wiseness of trusting Severus with Dumbledore, I think he would have done so in private jmo :)

Also, Sirius was present in his animagus form in GoF, when Snape revealed his mark to Fudge. So, I think probably most Order members would have been aware of Snape's ex-DE status, depending how much they all liked to gossip.:lol:

To me the question is not so much who knew - I think most, if not all of them, did. The question to me is when? The order was not reformed untill the sumer between GoF & OotP, but in the time between the fall of Voldemort & then - who knew? and how did it affect they way they delt with Severus?

As Cathy said

I'm not even sure he was accepted - I think he was tolerated because Dumbledore trusted him.

I have to agree and I would add that being tolerated is not particularly pleasant! It is a step up from being out and out hated but on the other hand it does not mena people's oppinions of you changed only that they are holding back one expressing them.

I can't see this making many people feel warm and fuzzy - let alone Severus!

Did everyone know he was a DE? Sirius seems unaware of it in GOF. I presume no one knew apart from Dumbledore.

I meant in OOTP - there was no Order prior to that. It had broken up after the first war. Remember Dumbledore sent Sirius off to Remus's place and told him to round up the old gang.

Well I would take it as Snape being the odd man out as a Slytherin and as someone who was famous for his knowledge of the dark arts and for hanging around DE wannabes, while in School.

So with that in mind, I think it would fall to the others to make him feel that his House and his fascination for the dark arts would not place him in the DE slot or look at him as a spy for Voldemort like Sirius almost accused Snape in OOTP, when he was introduced by Dumbledore.

Well whatever reason in his past, I think we are in agreement that the Order would have reservations about the new guy, Snape. I feel that would prevent them from welcoming him with open arms. Sirius accused Snape to his face of being a DE. So yeah, some members would never welcome him. But I think other members might have learned to trust him more down the line if Snape had had a better disposition. But I don't think Snape cared about this.

I agree; but did the others treat him civilly without suspicion when he was first introduced to the Order? Seeing who the Order was made up of, and Remus's comments as late as HBP and Sirius's view of Snape in OOTP, I would say the Order did not take well to him, but was forced to accept him because Dumbledore did.

I doubt it very much - they were all likely distrustful and did not want him in the Order at all, imo. But Dumbledore vouched for him and they trusted Dumbledore. As I say, they were not going to roll out a welcome mat, Snape would have to prove himself. They had all been betrayed before and Snape's credentials were suspect at best, imo.

I'm not even sure he was accepted - I think he was tolerated because Dumbledore trusted him. Being the naturally taciturn man he was I think it would be hard for him to "join in" - I also think that being a spy automatically makes it difficult for you to form attachments.

Yeah, that is what I meant by accepted - tolerated really. He came along with a number of strikes against him. I am sure Sirius told Remus and Tonks about his previous stint as a DE and Moody knew, plus all the kids knew (Ron, et al.) so their parents would know. I feel the whole Order knew. :lol:. Plus he was going to act as a "spy" for Voldy and that would not likely be much help. So I agree they would not trust him initially and only do so because they were forced to by Dumbledore - and tolerate him for the same reason. And of course you can't force some people to do anything - so there would be those like Sirius that would never trust or accept Snape on any level, imo.

But my point was that if Snape's disposition had been better - as the new guy on the block - I feel he could have likely won some trust and acceptance on his own. A cordial person encourages these things. It would be hard and likely not work with some people, but I think it would with others. It is harder to accept and trust someone you don't like and who does not appear to like you, imo. But this is the general disregard that I feel was a part of Snape's character. I don't think he cared how the Order members felt about him and he disregarded them for the most part, imo. Disregard can come back to haunt ya though as it did to many in the series, including Snape, imo.

In Severus’s case I don’t think he would have been in a good position to learn about security – some of his physical needs (e.g. appropriate clothing) were not cared for adequately, and it seems doubtful to me that his home life as a child was secure – the only thing we see of it was both scary and sad.
I agree, kittling! The obvious lack of care was apparent from his appearence in TPT, and was probably just the tip of the iceberg, imo. He was so uncomfortable at home that he couldn't wait to get away to Hogwarts.

I actually see this as being the other way around – that he didn’t care about himself internally so he didn’t look after the outside of himself either. :)

:agree:

:tu: However I imagine Moody being aware of the importance of keeping certain things quiet. While I'm very sure he would have discussed the wiseness of trusting Severus with Dumbledore, I think he would have done so in private jmo :)

Most probably!:D

To me the question is not so much who knew - I think most, if not all of them, did. The question to me is when? The order was not reformed untill the sumer between GoF & OotP, but in the time between the fall of Voldemort & then - who knew? and how did it affect they way they delt with Severus?
If they were aware of the spying job he was doing for the Order, I think they would have been aware of his DE status.

I have to agree and I would add that being tolerated is not particularly pleasant! It is a step up from being out and out hated but on the other hand it does not mena people's oppinions of you changed only that they are holding back one expressing them.

I can't see this making many people feel warm and fuzzy - let alone Severus!
Indeed! I would think that knowing Severus was a DE would very likely have predudiced their attiude towards him.

I meant in OOTP - there was no Order prior to that. It had broken up after the first war. Remember Dumbledore sent Sirius off to Remus's place and told him to round up the old gang.

Okay. :)

Well whatever reason in his past, I think we are in agreement that the Order would have reservations about the new guy, Snape. I feel that would prevent them from welcoming him with open arms. Sirius accused Snape to his face of being a DE. So yeah, some members would never welcome him. But I think other members might have learned to trust him more down the line if Snape had had a better disposition. But I don't think Snape cared about this.

But I think the disposition of the members against him would make him extremely wary and self protective of the rest; and honestly I can't blame him, seeing the opinion the members against, had of him.

I doubt it very much - they were all likely distrustful and did not want him in the Order at all imo. But Dumbledore vouched for him and they trusted Dumbledore. As I say, they were not going to roll out a welcome mat, Snape would have to prove himself. They had all been betrayed before and Snape's credentials were suspect at best, imo.

Then with this kind of an acceptance Snape was hardly going to make an effort IMO. Before Dumbledore himself did not know who the traitor was (in Peter's case); here Dumbledore personally vouched for Snape.

I think there was no real acceptance; there was only a dubious tolerance towards Snape and that would make Snape more wary than anything else.

I respectfully disagree. Loving someone does not mean one needs to agree with what the other says. Snape would have been benefitted to agree with Lily; he made wrong choices that went on to hurt him badly. But I don't think it means he was disregarding of Lily IMO.

As an Order member, I don't think Snape was trusted for himself. All along people tolerated him, not accepted him, but tolerated him because of Dumbledore. Remus even says so in HBP. And Sirius arefused to believe and agree with Dumbledore in OOTP (Occlumenacy Chapter)

That attitude is not going to make Snape behave in a very cordial manner IMO. His relationship with the Order members were a 2 way system. And I don't they behaved in such a manner to make him comfortable or accepted.

ITA with this. Everyone keeps saying that McGonagall and the other professors trusted him and were friends, but we see no evidence of this at all. We see that Lupin and Sirius really don't trust him and all the other teachers at Hogwarts merely seem to tolerate him. Even Hagrid can't come up with much more than "Dumbledore trusts him". Not exactly a ringing endorsement.




That is why I have always felt he was disregarding of his school work as well and never cited as being particularly smart when young. He just didn't care about some important things to the extent he should and instead seemed to narrowly focus on a select few things.


I respectfully disagree. His work displayed in Advanced Potion making and Slughorn's comments make me feel the opposite. I think he was brilliant, but he was a Slytherin and probably that acheievement went unnoticed IMO.

Again, I agree completely. We know he was brillant at potions... we saw that based on the book in HBP. We also know he is extremely skilled in Occlumency. And while he might not have reached his full talent until he was an adult, there's no way we didn't get to see a hint of this while he was a kid. I can easily see Snape, based on his lack of confidence, back away from a lot of recognition. Because recognition brings attention, and let's face it, he didn't have a lot of *good* attention growing up. Kids who grow up in an abusing environment are often very quick to fly under the radar no matter what their achievement is.

I think that Snape neither expected to be welcomed, or even wanted to be. I think it suited him the way it was, and it probably even helped him to keep a distance from the other Order members when it came to his dealings with Voldemort.

If he got close to anyone he ran the risk of Voldemort finding out. Even if Voldemort couldn't pull it from Snape's head, someone, somewhere, would take note he was pending a lot of time with so and so, or seemed attached to so and so, etc. After Lily I'm not sure this was a chance Snape was willing to take. I think Snape blamed himself for Lily's death more than we know. He might have even taken the entirety of her death on himself as some sort of self flagellation. We often times saw him verbally blame others, but to me, his actions show that his failure to save her still haunts him.

Did everyone know he was a DE? Sirius seems unaware of it in GOF. I presume no one knew apart from Dumbledore.

I thought it was general knowledge, tho I can't remember anyone specifically sayign it outright. We know that Dumbledore spoke for him at his trial, so it seems like it would be hard NOT to know. Sirius had been is Azkaban, so that might be why he didn't know.

I'm not even sure he was accepted - I think he was tolerated because Dumbledore trusted him. Being the naturally taciturn man he was I think it would be hard for him to "join in" - I also think that being a spy automatically makes it difficult for you to form attachments. If Snape had been very close to any Order members he would have been expectd to betray them on Voldemort's return. As it was Snape was not particular friends with any of the Order (like for example Wormtail was in VW I) so that predicament was avoided.

Once again I worship at the alter of Cathy Weasley :lol:

And even if he hadn't been a spy, I'm not sure Snape knew how to join in. After so long would he have been able to overcome all the past behaviors to really be "one of the crowd"?

There is a lot of evidence that security is learnt in the first years of life (See Ainsworth, Bowlby, Erikson, & Klien, for starters). If we grow up without anyone helping us learn what security is, or without any actual security ( either in our environment or in the people surrounding us) then our ability to learn to introject a sense of security is severely impeded.

However what we do with it as adults is, as least party, up to us - assuming of course that we have been in a position to learn security in the first place. :)

I agree, and I would also add, that what we do is partly up to us even if we were NOT in a position to learn security, and thus never did. Not all adults have all desirable psychological characteristics in equal measure, (or the counseling/psychology/therapy types of professions would be out of work!) and this does not preclude them from being productive and worthwhile people. Snape may never have learned security, as not all people do. He did, however, come up with better coping mechanisms that permitted him to be successful in his chosen endeavors, and contribute to Harry's victory.

That is his character arc. Not his growth from a depressed, insecure, prickly young adult into a happy, loving human being that no one could attach any psych lingo to. :rotfl: But rather, his growth from an unhappy, insecure teenager who didn't care if the world burned down around him and was pleased enough to move it along in that direction, to an unhappy, insecure adult who was going to do whatever it took to set right the things he had done wrong in the past, and protect others from harm.

That is his character arc. Not his growth from a depressed, insecure, prickly young adult into a happy, loving human being that no one could attach any psych lingo to. :rotfl: But rather, his growth from an unhappy, insecure teenager who didn't care if the world burned down around him and was pleased enough to move it along in that direction, to an unhappy, insecure adult who was going to do whatever it took to set right the things he had done wrong in the past, and protect others from harm.

:tu:

I completely agree.

That is his character arc. Not his growth from a depressed, insecure, prickly young adult into a happy, loving human being that no one could attach any psych lingo to. :rotfl: But rather, his growth from an unhappy, insecure teenager who didn't care if the world burned down around him and was pleased enough to move it along in that direction, to an unhappy, insecure adult who was going to do whatever it took to set right the things he had done wrong in the past, and protect others from harm.

:tu:

Nicely put. I'm not sure Snape was capable of the happy loving human. Sometimes, IMO, there's just too much damage done that you can't undo.

:tu:

Nicely put. I'm not sure Snape was capable of the happy loving human. Sometimes, IMO, there's just too much damage done that you can't undo.

Yes ... and I don't think the character would be half so memorable had JKR made him more, erm, disposed to the warm fuzzies. :p :)

Tragic, bitter, doomed, sarcastic, courageous ... what's not to love? :lol:

Actually, I don't love the way he treats Harry. :shrug:

But neither do I find it unforgivable -- when I set it against everything else that Snape did, I mean, his work for the Order and his courage ... which was recognised both by Dumbledore and Harry.

:tu:

Nicely put. I'm not sure Snape was capable of the happy loving human. Sometimes, IMO, there's just too much damage done that you can't undo.

I'd just say we will never know. He was murdered at age 38 (39?), having spent the last 16 years of his life spying on Voldemort or waiting to do so again. If he had lived to find himself free of that burden, I could see him making something of a recovery in a wizarding lifetime (of maybe 100 more years. :lol: ) Or not. :sigh:

I'd like to think Snape would recover in a wizarding lifetime too! :) Invent more spells, potions and bury himself in research and grow out of his guilt and come into peace. :) I feel for him; he never had the chance to discover peace at all.

I agree, and I would also add, that what we do is partly up to us even if we were NOT in a position to learn security, and thus never did.

To a point I agree. A client who has yet to learn the feeling of security and then introject it can learn to do so (that is one of the jobs of a therapist ;)) but to do so their everyday circumstances need to reflect the security then need to learn. That is to say they must be in a safe environment – otherwise the best they can hope for is to develop effective coping strategies that are not too counterproductive for thier long term happiness.

I would have to question is Severus was in that kind of environment. One the one hand his time working at Hogwarts with Dumbledore et al would probably qualify. However he needs to maintain contact with other Death Eaters. While I believe that his friendship with Lucius was in the main a positive one (all things considered) I’m not sure if the maintaining of such relationships would leave him in a secure position – its just to full of risk imo.

Not all adults have all desirable psychological characteristics in equal measure, (or the counseling/psychology/therapy types of professions would be out of work!)

Very true on all counts! :lol:

and this does not preclude them from being productive and worthwhile people.

:agree: Not at all, I was responding to the comment that security is self developed. It is absolutely possible for people in such positions to be productive and worthwhile people – other wise the world would be in even more of a mess that it already is!

Snape may never have learned security, as not all people do. He did, however, come up with better coping mechanisms that permitted him to be successful in his chosen endeavors, and contribute to Harry's victory.

Indeed, I quite agree. I think though that his coping strategies were formed / improved with the ‘end goal’ always in mind – that he was going to go back to being a spy. Therefore the strategies revolved around making him better able fulfil that role; to cope alone, to compartmentalise etc rather than making nice with people who were irrelevant to the ‘end goal’ – this however sacrificed his potential long term happiness imo.

Actually, I don't love the way he treats Harry. :shrug:

But neither do I find it unforgivable -- when I set it against everything else that Snape did, I mean, his work for the Order and his courage ... which was recognised both by Dumbledore and Harry.

:agree: I also see it somewhat (note - not entirely but somewhat) as a consequence of his coping stratergies :)

I'd just say we will never know. He was murdered at age 38 (39?), having spent the last 16 years of his life spying on Voldemort or waiting to do so again. If he had lived to find himself free of that burden, I could see him making something of a recovery in a wizarding lifetime (of maybe 100 more years. :lol: ) Or not. :sigh:

:tu::tu:

That is to say they must be in a safe environment – otherwise the best they can hope for is to develop effective coping strategies that are not too counterproductive.

This is what I see Snape as having done. Aspects of his behavior, such as his forbidding manner in the classroom, seem to me to be such strategies. To label them as wither productive or counterproductive, one would have to agree on what they were trying to produce. I don't think Snape's goals (and he was the person creating and adapting the strrategies, though I am sure he did not think of it in such technical terms, he was just doing what worked for him) are those a therapist would usually attempt to guide a client towards.

I would have to question is Severus was in that kind of environment.

I would agree, for all the reasons you posted, that he was not in such an environment.

Indeed, I quite agree. I think though that his coping strategies were formed / improved with the ‘end goal’ always in mind – that he was going to go back to being a spy. Therefore the strategies revolved around making him better able fulfil that role; to cope alone, to compartmentalise etc rather than making nice with people who were irrelevant to the ‘end goal’ – this however sacrificed his potential long term happiness imo.

I don't think his long-term happiness was a priority for him. Especially in the early going after Lily died, I think he just figured he had messed up his life too badly to ever be happy.

I also see it somewhat (note - not entirely but somewhat) as a consequence of his coping stratergies That's the way I see it. I think there is a lot of "self-preservation" going on with Severus.

To label them as wither productive or counterproductive, one would have to agree on what they were trying to produce.

:lol: Again you catch me being unclear about what I mean!

I meant that the stratergies would be useful to the 'end goal' & not too counter productive for his long term happiness. :)

I don't think Snape's goals (and he was the person creating and adapting the strrategies, though I am sure he did not think of it in such technical terms, he was just doing what worked for him) are those a therapist would usually attempt to guide a client towards.

You'd be surprised! Not that it is in any way normal to have a client come to you stating they wanted to be/were a spy, but we do see people who are not yet in a safe situation and we would, in that sort of case, aid in the creation of coping stratergies - it is a very bad idea to deal with underlying issues until the client is in a possition to do so safely :)

Ok that was a tiney bit OT! :scared: but I have to say Severus would make a facinating case study :whistle:

I don't think his long-term happiness was a priority for him. Especially in the early going after Lily died, I think he just figured he had messed up his life too badly to ever be happy.

:tu: I wish I could tell you you were wrong. :upset:

I don't think Snape ever considered any long term happiness. I think he was the type that did things that needed to be done because he was the one that could do it. I'm still not convinced he felt he deserved to be happy given what he's gone thru as a child and his role in Lily's death. Even if the opportunity had presented itself, free and clear with no strings attached, I'm not sure he'd have taken it.

I don't think Snape ever considered any long term happiness. I think he was the type that did things that needed to be done because he was the one that could do it. I'm still not convinced he felt he deserved to be happy given what he's gone thru as a child and his role in Lily's death. Even if the opportunity had presented itself, free and clear with no strings attached, I'm not sure he'd have taken it.


I agree... partially. I think that it would be hard for Snape to be truly happy knowing he had indirectly caused the death of the woman he loved, and I think he had probably given up on happiness, and yes, probably did not believe he deserved it.

But I don't think he did the things he did simply because he could. I don't imagine Professor Snape as this depressed, apathetic blob of misery because of Lily's death, just simply unhappy because of it. I imagined in my interpretation of his character that it awoke a very passionate part of him, and he was extremely devoted to his cause. I think if many wizards were as capable as he, he would still want to do the things he did.

ITA with this. Everyone keeps saying that McGonagall and the other professors trusted him and were friends, but we see no evidence of this at all. We see that Lupin and Sirius really don't trust him and all the other teachers at Hogwarts merely seem to tolerate him. Even Hagrid can't come up with much more than "Dumbledore trusts him". Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

I agree.

We know he was brillant at potions... we saw that based on the book in HBP.

Well I don't feel the canon indicates this is the case and I would have to agree to disagree on this.

And even if he hadn't been a spy, I'm not sure Snape knew how to join in. After so long would he have been able to overcome all the past behaviors to really be "one of the crowd"?

I agree, but I don't feel he wished to be one of the gang. He appeared to enjoy isolating himself and behaved in a disregarding manner toward the Order members, imo. Whether or not he did and whether that fed upon his insecurities is a matter of opinion - I feel he did and it did.

But I don't think he did the things he did simply because he could. I don't imagine Professor Snape as this depressed, apathetic blob of misery because of Lily's death, just simply unhappy because of it. I imagined in my interpretation of his character that it awoke a very passionate part of him, and he was extremely devoted to his cause. I think if many wizards were as capable as he, he would still want to do the things he did.

I think that's well put. :tu:

Snape is certainly anything but apathetic. :cool:

I think that's well put. :tu:

Snape is certainly anything but apathetic. :cool:

Thanks, Pearl. :)

I think if he were apathetic, he would have been of a lot less use. In fact, it might be likely that he would have remained with the DE after her death if those were his feelings. I think his feelings clearly remained, and even strengthened in order for him to change his whole moral system and fight against those he had been fighting with since forever. Someone who's depressed is of little use to anyone, but someone who's passionate can do anything.

Thanks, Pearl. :)

I think if he were apathetic, he would have been of a lot less use. In fact, it might be likely that he would have remained with the DE after her death if those were his feelings. I think his feelings clearly remained, and even strengthened in order for him to change his whole moral system and fight against those he had been fighting with since forever. Someone who's depressed is of little use to anyone, but someone who's passionate can do anything.

I mostly agree but I don't think that depressed and apathetic nesecarily go hand in hand. Apathetic, no, that doesn't describe Snape to me. But the lack of social interaction as well as a host of other things we discussed in the previous thread would lead me to believe he probably had bouts of depression. When you take so much on to yourself and when you always seems to fail at your life's greatest tasks, it can come back and bite you.

I mostly agree but I don't think that depressed and apathetic nesecarily go hand in hand. Apathetic, no, that doesn't describe Snape to me. But the lack of social interaction as well as a host of other things we discussed in the previous thread would lead me to believe he probably had bouts of depression. When you take so much on to yourself and when you always seems to fail at your life's greatest tasks, it can come back and bite you.

I see what you're saying, but we're not really talking about the same kind of depression. I'm talking about the kind where you just stop feeling things, not where you feel sad. I don't think I would describe Snape as really depressed, simply because I think it was a very defiant and stubborn sadness. I think there was a lot of feeling in it, very minimal numbness, which is how I think of depression.

I see what you're saying, but we're not really talking about the same kind of depression. I'm talking about the kind where you just stop feeling things, not where you feel sad. I don't think I would describe Snape as really depressed, simply because I think it was a very defiant and stubborn sadness. I think there was a lot of feeling in it, very minimal numbness, which is how I think of depression.

But there's a lot of different ways that depression effects people. Not everyone has that numb feeling. Just like any other disease, not everyone is effected, or manifests symptoms in the same way.

I see what you're saying, but we're not really talking about the same kind of depression. I'm talking about the kind where you just stop feeling things, not where you feel sad. I don't think I would describe Snape as really depressed, simply because I think it was a very defiant and stubborn sadness. I think there was a lot of feeling in it, very minimal numbness, which is how I think of depression.

There are many different types of depression. I had a depression at one time, where I would feel lonely, sad, apathetic, then at other times I would have lived on my nerves, easily upset, stressed, stubborn. Depression isn't always just about no longer feeling or numbness. Some depressions a person will end up feeling emotions even more acutely because they become absorbed by them or have difficulty in dealing with/control them.

It's not a simple or easy subject to sum up. As Labrynth says it also depends on the person's personality and their situation. :)

Snape did take a huge amount on his shoulders and I imagine it would have taken its toll.

Yes, I chose a poor word for it, but what I meant was apathy.

For lack of better wording, I think the biggest manifestation of the depression I see in Snape is the fact he never really seems to want or even believe in a happy ending for himself. He does what needs to be done, and he obviously feels some very strong emotions towards it, but he is very incapable of looking past that goal to something else. I agree with those who have said Snape probably knew his days were numbered and he wouldn't make it out a live. But isn't lack of hope a depression as well?

For lack of better wording, I think the biggest manifestation of the depression I see in Snape is the fact he never really seems to want or even believe in a happy ending for himself. He does what needs to be done, and he obviously feels some very strong emotions towards it, but he is very incapable of looking past that goal to something else. I agree with those who have said Snape probably knew his days were numbered and he wouldn't make it out a live.

Yes, he strives to do what he can to protect and save others, work to get rid of Voldemort and fulfill wishes (like Dumbledore's) but doesn't seem to have hopes for himself in the way of a life. He seeked positives like forgiveness, change and to atone for his past mistakes, but I didn't see anything in the way of building or foreseeing a life afterwards.

But isn't lack of hope a depression as well?

Yes, it is a feeling that is sometimes experienced. :agree:

I'm also left to wonder if he had any real desire to live. Not saying he was openly suicidal or anything, but if he had no hope, did he really care if he lived? Did he feel that life without Lily wasn't worth living? Everything he'd believed in, the very reasons he'd lost her had all proven false. How do we know he desired to make it thru the war? I'm personally of the opinion that he never, for one brief instant, believed he's live thru it, but he doesn't seem to have a desire to do it either. Snape had a very specific goal in mind, and he followed that goal to the bitter end. Was that all he wanted out of life?

Sorry, guys. Suicide is a topic not to be discussed on CoS. A family friendly online forum just isn't the place for it. Please stick to the other parts of Snape's character, thanks! :)

Quote:Labrynth
We know he was brillant at potions... we saw that based on the book in HBP.

Well I don't feel the canon indicates this is the case and I would have to agree to disagree on this.

Dumbledore seems to think so. Also, there is a quote from Slughorn in HBP that infers that Snape had been exceptional at potions. It implies that Slughorn rated Snape's first attempt at the Living Death potion as best until Harry's attempt (love the irony there!).


"Well, then, it's a natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson -- Draught of Living Death -- never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus --"

Dumbledore seems to think so.

Ah, we were speaking about when he was young. I agree he eventually became a potions master. There was ample evidence of that, imo.

Also, there is a quote from Slughorn in HBP that infers that Snape had been exceptional at potions. It implies that Slughorn rated Snape's first attempt at the Living Death potion as best until Harry's attempt (love the irony there!).


"Well, then, it's a natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson -- Draught of Living Death -- never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus --"



I understand this was the quote everyone was referring too. However, the particular potion was in Snape's book, so I assume it was the same one Harry used -making it a double edged compliment. That is, it allows for a good potion to be rendered, but Harry followed Snape's directions better than Snape did - by my interpretation of Slughorn's statement. So I think Snape had a bent toward potions back then that developed in later life; but I don't assume it meant Snape was brilliant at potions when young.

Snape came up with ways to make the potions in a better way. How does that now show he was a very sharp mind when it came to potions?

Well it is not my intent to get everyone to agree with my interpretation. I just feel that if Snape had a sharp mind, it would have been mentioned. I do feel that he could be inventive and was a hard worker if fascinated by the subject matter; he created Sectumsempra and a couple of other spells, plus worked out things in potions. But I feel he was on the whole disregarding of school when young - his mind elsewhere. So I don't think he excelled until he was older. But that is just my impression of the canon. The idea that Snape was the Hermione of his school years is simply not canon based in my judgment (the original contention of his level of brilliance); and I feel if that were supposed to be the case, we'd know about it. We know about others. But I am sure many students excelled here and there, at times, just like in all academic situations and Snape likely did so as well - a potion here or there, etc.

IMHO, we don't need to be told that he was good at potions and inventive with spells at a young age. We're shown it through the potions book. He corrected and improved upon the textbook, which is a good indicator as far as I'm concerned.

" Harry moved around behind Snape and read the heading of the examination paper: DEFENCE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS — ORDINARY WIZARDING LEVEL.
So Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry's own age. His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbours, and yet his writing was minuscule and cramped."

So, unless he was surrounded by complete dunderheads... I'd say he did rather well.

Also, a characteristic sich as "bright" and "academically talented" may or may not be innate, this is a subject of much debate. But by the time one is in one's late teens, one is or is not these things. We can know teen Snape was bright and talented, because the canon that adult Snape is, is all over the place. ONe is not average at 16, and brilliant at 31. Hermione is impressed with his logic. Albus with his mastery of the Dark Arts. Several people with his Occlumency. Slughorn with his Potions skill. Voldemort with his general, all purpose talent.

The lack of mention of this talent is not hard to explain. Minerva would have no reason to mention it, he was not her best student, she had at lreast three better in his year. His best subjects were the ones he teaches as an adult, and he seems sufficiently secure in his mastery of both not to have any reason to go around telling anyone what a great student he was. He is also the Head of his former House (another possible source of information about a student - and when we do meet Sluggie, presto, he is not surprised that Snape has replaced him).

In addition, he might have been an academic underperformer (except in Potions and DADA, where the evidence has been cited for his excellence). He might have spent more time tinkering with Potions and spells than studying, something that would not be unusual for a bright, socially inept "oddball". Especially if he was banking on the Death Eaters as his ticket to success in life (note, for example, Draco's comments to his friends about the insignificance of NEWTs).

IMHO, we don't need to be told that he was good at potions and inventive with spells at a young age. We're shown it through the potions book. He corrected and improved upon the textbook, which is a good indicator as far as I'm concerned.

I respect your view. My impression was distinct; in comparison, the Weasley twins went well and far beyond what we know about Snape, imo. They were using basic potions or perhaps even creating their own, and using other areas of magic as well, in order to improve on and create their zillions of items - and they sold them. Yet they were not noted for any particular academic achievement, despite the textual evidence of their cleverness. This is what I meant by kids having a penchant for this or that, or giving a good show on this or that assignment - I feel that is natural to all (especially in areas they enjoy, like the Weasleys and Snape, imo). However, I don't feel that that equates to overall academic brilliance or even necessarily good academic performance. In the case of the Weasleys it did not, imo - based on their grades, which were not stellar. So I regard Snape in that same type of light.

but Harry followed Snape's directions better than Snape did - by my interpretation of Slughorn's statement.



"Well, then, it's a natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson -- Draught of Living Death -- never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus --"

Here Slughorn is specifically talking about first students first attempts at making this particular potion (see bolded section). Harry is following directions written by someone who has taken the time to experiment with the recipe and improve it - obviously Severus hadn't done any of that on his first attempt!

Well it is not my intent to get everyone to agree with my interpretation. I just feel that if Snape had a sharp mind, it would have been mentioned.

Mentioned? :hmm: Rowling doesn't need to mention Snape's sharp mind. She shows it to us! E.g. in the brilliant logic puzzle he sets to guard the Philosopher's Stone.

But I feel he was on the whole disregarding of school when young - his mind elsewhere.

I really don't think we have any canon to prove this whatsoever. :hmm: To be fair, there's no canon to disprove it either. :lol: But the one impression that Rowling gives us of his school years is of a student poring over his exam paper. :cool:

We know that he had a great aptitude and skill for Potions, we know he was a superb Occlumens and an accomplished Legilimens, we know he also had an aptitude for DADA.

In other words, I don't believe canon shows Snape to be a slouch. :cool:

The idea that Snape was the Hermione of his school years is simply not canon based in my judgment (the original contention of his level of brilliance); and I feel if that were supposed to be the case, we'd know about it.

Well, Hermione is not a genius, IMO. :) Not according to my interpretation of her. What I see in canon is a very clever, and very hard-working, girl. :) That does not amount to genius, since genius is very rare.

I'm not sure that canon shows Snape to be a genius either. :lol:

I do think, however, that he is shown to be a hard-working, diligent student when it comes to his exams (as in his poring over his OWL paper), to be very skilled in other areas and to have a highly logical, intellectual mind.

As an adult, he always speaks in a very deliberate, articulate, intellectual way and that surely is a significant indicator of his intelligence, otherwise why would Rowling assign that kind of speech pattern to him? It's all part of her character-building.

I do think, however, that he is shown to be a hard-working, diligent student when it comes to his exams (as in his poring over his OWL paper), to be very skilled in other areas and to have a highly logical, intellectual mind.

I respect your view, and I am only referring to Snape while he studied at Hogwarts, not the adult Snape. I think it is just a matter of individual interpretation. I interpret his writing out the long wordy parchment to mean that he was somewhat clueless as to the answer. It wasn't a free style writing forum, but rather an exam calling for specific answers, imo. I feel that his pouring over it afterward, indicates he was hopeful that he'd gotten something down that would count for points.

A professor of mine once said; "please be concise on the exam and simply answer the question posed. I am not an archeologist and I have no intent of digging through the wealth of your knowledge in the hope of uncovering a jewel - a jewel you hope you have managed to bury." :lol:. Funny stuff, but a great point. There is a time and place for all types of writing styles and I feel that on exams, the most successful students answer the question addressed, thoroughly but concisely.

So my impression was that Snape was constructing an archeological site for his professor; giving the wealth of his knowledge. As the dark arts were of interest to him, he likely had a lot of ideas, opinions and information to add - although in my judgment, it would not be defense oriented. I believe his pouring over it indicated his personal search for the jewel he hoped he had buried. This was contrasted in canon with the reaction of some of his classmates, noted for being exceptionally bright, and in my opinion, they were displaying what I indicated above. I felt they had written shorter, concise answers that sufficiently addressed the point and as a result, they finished sooner and were certain they had done well. So this was my take on the scene - looking at all of the indicators. However, I respect the fact that everyone sees these things distinctly.

We've no idea of knowing how and what was asked during the exam imo. So how to deduct from Snape's apparent long answers that he was clueless about the answer is beyond me. But yeah it's an interpretation issue.

I always saw Snape as very knowledgeable and compare him to Hermione in that sense. I've always imagined Hermione to write long answers as well and she did know the answers to almost every book question. Which imo isn't bad.

We've no idea of knowing how and what was asked during the exam imo. So how to deduct from Snape's apparent long answers that he was clueless about the answer is beyond me. But yeah it's an interpretation issue.


I completely agree with you, Hes! Although, I always imagined OWLs to be similar to the old O'level examination which was taken at the same age as OWLs and is what Rowling herself would have sat. In which case there would have been at least one essay question requiring indepth knowledge.

I always saw Snape as very knowledgeable and compare him to Hermione in that sense. I've always imagined Hermione to write long answers as well and she did know the answers to almost every book question. Which imo isn't bad.

Hermione did indeed write long answers.

PoA, Owl Post
I have re-written my whole History of Magic essay to include some of the things I've found out. I hope it is not too long, it's two rolls of parchment more than Professor Binns asked for.

I completely agree with you, Hes! Although, I always imagined OWLs to be similar to the old O'level examination which was taken at the same age as OWLs and is what Rowling herself would have sat. In which case there would have been at least one essay question requiring indepth knowledge.

Exactly. Also, even now these type of answers are required and you get more points for showing additional knowledge/for showing aptitude. I think JKR studied as a teacher for a while, didn't she? So she probably knows about that kind of thing.



Hermione did indeed write long answers.

PoA, Owl Post
I have re-written my whole History of Magic essay to include some of the things I've found out. I hope it is not too long, it's two rolls of parchment more than Professor Binns asked for.

Yes, it a great parallel. I certainly wouldn't call Hermione clueless in regards to her knowledge.

I respect your view, and I am only referring to Snape while he studied at Hogwarts, not the adult Snape. I think it is just a matter of individual interpretation. I interpret his writing out the long wordy parchment to mean that he was somewhat clueless as to the answer. It wasn't a free style writing forum, but rather an exam calling for specific answers, imo. I feel that his pouring over it afterward, indicates he was hopeful that he'd gotten something down that would count for points.

A professor of mine once said; "please be concise on the exam and simply answer the question posed. I am not an archeologist and I have no intent of digging through the wealth of your knowledge in the hope of uncovering a jewel - a jewel you hope you have managed to bury." :lol:. Funny stuff, but a great point. There is a time and place for all types of writing styles and I feel that on exams, the most successful students answer the question addressed, thoroughly but concisely.


Wow, it's funny how interpretation changes everything. I can honestly say it never struck me that Snape would be digging for gold here, as it were. (Tho I freely admit to having practiced this kind of answer on more than one occasion in my time! :lol:)

I guess I also likened him to Hermine on this. We knew she had a tendency to give longer answers than need be, and all the parchment made me think Snape was being increidibly thorough in his answers.

I think Snape to be brilliant for all the reasons various posters have mentioned here.

However, I differ very slightly in my opinion when it comes to a comparison between Snape and Hermione. I think Hermione's more than brilliant, but somehow, I place Snape on a class of his own. Hermione comes under brilliant + hardworking, but she also is very dependent on and because of that slightly restricted, by her dependence on textual information.

Snape IMO goes beyond it in inventing spells and making innovative potion corrections and, Snape is different. :)

ETA :: A genius. :)

However, I differ very slightly in my opinion when it comes to a comparison between Snape and Hermione. I think Hermione's more than brilliant, but somehow, I place Snape on a class of his own. Hermione comes under brilliant + hardworking, but she also is very dependent on and because of that slightly restricted, by her dependence on textual information.

Snape IMO goes beyond it in inventing spells and making innovative potion corrections and, Snape is different. :)

Yes I agree. Snape shows aptitude and creativness combined by improving potions, invented by professionals. Also, inventing new spells. Where as Hermione who is an intelligent student learns what is in books, but stops there. It might be why Snape gets frustrated with her 'parroting' text books because she has shown the intelligence to be able to go beyond that if she chose.

Different kinds of intelligence and way of thinking, approach to learning.

I think Snape to be brilliant for all the reasons various posters have mentioned here.

However, I differ very slightly in my opinion when it comes to a comparison between Snape and Hermione. I think Hermione's more than brilliant, but somehow, I place Snape on a class of his own. Hermione comes under brilliant + hardworking, but she also is very dependent on and because of that slightly restricted, by her dependence on textual information.

Snape IMO goes beyond it in inventing spells and making innovative potion corrections and, Snape is different. :)

I think this is an excellent point. :tu: While Snape and Hermione are obviously both extremely intelligent, I think they each have different types of intelligence. Hermione seems, in my opinion, to have a more conventional (for lack of a better word) type of intelligence than Snape. She is excellent at memorization, and more of the "book-smart" type. I can't recall many examples of creativity or innovation from her. In HBP, she has a lot of difficulty accepting that what someone wrote in a book could be better than what the book says. However, one example of innovation that does come to mind, is her inventing the coins for the DA to communicate - I think this shows that she does have the potential go beyond books, if she were to give it a chance.

While Hermione strives to learn all of the magic that others have discovered, Snape is able to discover/create new spells and ideas of his own. I'm not sure whether I'd say one of them is more brilliant than the other, only that they have different kinds of intellect.

Yes I agree. Snape shows aptitude and creativness combined by improving potions, invented by professionals. Also, inventing new spells. Where as Hermione who is an intelligent student learns what is in books, but stops there. It might be why Snape gets frustrated with her 'parroting' text books because she has shown the intelligence to be able to go beyond that if she chose.

:agree:

I think this is an excellent point. :tu: While Snape and Hermione are obviously both extremely intelligent, I think they each have different types of intelligence. Hermione seems, in my opinion, to have a more conventional (for lack of a better word) type of intelligence than Snape. She is excellent at memorisation, and more of the "book-smart" type. I can't recall many examples of creativity or innovation from her. In HBP, she has a lot of difficulty accepting that what someone wrote in a book could be better than what the book says.

Exactly. :)

However, one example of innovation that does come to mind, is her inventing the coins for the DA to communicate - I think this shows that she does have the potential go beyond books, if she were to give it a chance.

While Hermione strives to learn all of the magic that others have discovered, Snape is able to discover/create new spells and ideas of his own. I'm not sure whether I'd say one of them is more brilliant than the other, only that they have different kinds of intellect

I think Snape is more brilliant than Hermione for the very reasons you mentioned (that Snape is able to discover/create new spells and ideas of his own).
Hermione is great at application of known magic (the protean charm for the DA coins like you said) and at memorisation and understanding of concepts IMO. Snape though, has a different kind of intelligence IMO. :)

Well for me, it was just how the canon presented the situation - the contrast in scene - and the later contrast of Harry taking his OWLS where DADA was his best subject. So I felt we got a little inside info and Harry was noted as confidently answering without the added indicators of writing out a long parchment and pouring over his page.

In actuality, I felt Snape's treatment of Hermione underscored this point. I always saw him as jealous of Hermione's performance - based on the desire to have been like her in his youth. Last time I mentioned that, it was suggested that Snape didn't like 'know it alls' (in explanation of his initial negative reaction to her) and that he didn't feel she was so brilliant after all, only a book memorizer (to explain his later reaction to her). However, that is rather contradictory to me, so I still feel that Snape saw in Hermione the student he wished he could have been.

Nonetheless, it is likely something I would have to agree to disagree on with everyone who sees it distinctly. :)

On a different note, how do people feel about Snape's comments relative to Draco's performance. Do you think he was being honest in his assessment, or do you feel he was attempting to make a different point with Lucius? Also, in HBP, Snape set Goyle and Crabbe on special sessions with himself. Later in DH, we saw that they both had somewhat better expertise, albeit in dark curses. Do you feel that Snape was responsible for heightening their prowess in that regard? If so, do you think that teaching the Slytherins to excel in dark arts as a part of his cover was wise?

ITA with the assessment of Snape contrasting to Hermine. I was always under the impression Snape just found her annoying. Heck *I* found her annoying at times. So did Harry and Ron. So I can't really fault him for that.

As for his treatment of Draco, I think it was two fold. A) I think he treated Draco as it was expected of him. The son of a DE as well as the son of a long lived Slytherin line. and B) if he had treated Draco the way he deserved to be treated, then when Voldemort did return (And I don't see any indication he didn't really believe the Dark Lord wouldn't return), he'd have a lot of 'splaining to to.

IMO, I never felt he really liked Draco much. He did what he was required to do as a double agent, but let's face it, Draco wasn't exactly tops in his class either. I felt his comments to Draco were more to keep everyone else happy than anything. The only time he seemed to take a real interest in the boy was when Dumbledore asked him to and then I think Draco could feel the insincerity, he knew Snape didn't want to help him, at least night the way Draco needed help.

Let's face it, Snape doesn't have what we'd call "people skills".

Also, in HBP, Snape set Goyle and Crabbe on special sessions with himself. Later in DH, we saw that they both had somewhat better expertise, albeit in dark curses. Do you feel that Snape was responsible for heightening their prowess in that regard? If so, do you think that teaching the Slytherins to excel in dark arts as a part of his cover was wise?

The special sessions were to help Crabbe and Goyle with their potions or something, weren't they? Snape as Head of Slytherin House wanted to ensure his students did well in their studies and believed with extra help they would improve. That is normal behaviour for an efficient teacher.

I think Crabbe and Goyle learnt their Dark Art skills from Carrow.

I think Crabbe and Goyle learnt their Dark Art skills from the Carrows.

Indeed, I think it is more likely that they acquired these skills from Amycus Carrow. Afterall he was teaching them Dark Arts for almost a year.