Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

Again, I think that's much scarier to Dudley than a stick would be to Petunia.

I think the only way to know which is "more" frightening would be to poll Dudley and Petunia. Anyway, I think Dudley showed more fear of magic when he knew it was magic and he was purposefully being targeted by persons who could weild it. He certainly showed fear later of Harry and other wizards when he knew magic could harm him. I would think Petunia would react in a similar fashion to being targeted by magic.

So, basically, you're saying that what DUmbledore says could be said thus:

Of course that Snape would only tell you that he is trying to help because he promised to your mother but I also given him orders to try to keep an eye on you, and to this it is secondary that he (also) promised to your mother.


Well, yeah, makes a lot of sense. "Well reasoned" to quote a door.


The problem is, I don't feel Draco would understand any of that - he just figured that Snape was fooling Dumbledore, imo. But Dumbledore likely found out about the vow right there on the rooftop. What difference would it make if he knew or not? He'd already asked Snape to kill him. What importance would it have to Dumbledore to know that Snape had cut a side deal to do the same thing? That only affects Snape, imo, and his placing his life at risk to ensure he killed Dumbledore or die for not doing so (assuming Dumbledore was right and Draco wouldn't be able to do it).

So, basically, you're saying that what DUmbledore says could be said thus:

Of course that Snape would only tell you that he is trying to help because he promised to your mother but I also given him orders to try to keep an eye on you, and to this it is secondary that he (also) promised to your mother.


Well, yeah, makes a lot of sense. "Well reasoned" to quote a door.

I would agree with this as well. If Snape knows that Dumbledore is going to have to die one way or the other, and he knows he will likely end up being the one to do it, making the vow is really neither here nor there. It strengthens his status in Voldemort's court because we know Bellatrix is going to report it, it gives Narcissa some relief, and it doesn't effect the outcome of Dumbledore's life anyway. So why not?

The problem with the Unbreakable Vow is that it paints Snape into a corner about when he will have to kill Dumbledore. The vow makes it on Draco's terms (unknown to Draco), because as soon as he fails for good Snape will have to step in whether Dumbledore has finished his preparations or not. Or Snape could choose to die instead, which he might have under different circumstances.

I would agree with this as well. If Snape knows that Dumbledore is going to have to die one way or the other, and he knows he will likely end up being the one to do it, making the vow is really neither here nor there. It strengthens his status in Voldemort's court because we know Bellatrix is going to report it, it gives Narcissa some relief, and it doesn't effect the outcome of Dumbledore's life anyway. So why not?

Precisely - this is the type of thinking both Dumbledore and Snape displayed at several points in the canon. I don't see why it would come as any surprise. For Snape, non-disclosure is old hat, imo, and while ethically wrong, imo, it was not evil, it was just another occassion in which Snape's moral compass was revealed, imo.

The problem with the Unbreakable Vow is that it paints Snape into a corner about when he will have to kill Dumbledore. The vow makes it on Draco's terms (unknown to Draco), because as soon as he fails for good Snape will have to step in whether Dumbledore has finished his preparations or not. Or Snape could choose to die instead, which he might have under different circumstances.

This is why I feel sure Albus and Severus discussed it. However, there really is nothing new in the Vow. The discussion in "The Prince's Tale" in which Albus asks Severus to kill him, includes the idea that Severus is to do it instead of Draco. Thus, it was always intended to be done on Draco's timetable - though Snape was to take steps (and did, like giving Crabbe and Goyle detentions) to delay things, of course.

This is why I feel sure Albus and Severus discussed it. However, there really is nothing new in the Vow. The discussion in "The Prince's Tale" in which Albus asks Severus to kill him, includes the idea that Severus is to do it instead of Draco. Thus, it was always intended to be done on Draco's timetable - though Snape was to take steps (and did, like giving Crabbe and Goyle detentions) to delay things, of course.

Well what is new, imo, is that Snape has to do it - whenever Draco has proven he will not or die. That is distinct from the original plan with Dumbledore. There is no canon that Snape spoke about it with Dumbledore - and Draco never told Dumbledore that Snape had made a vow - he just said promised his mum. I figure Dumbledore figured it out, but he may not have, perhaps he just thought it a promise Snape made Narcissa. But as I say, I don't think from Snape's point of view it matters since he was planning to kill Dumbledore anyway. Snape should have told him in case it would impact Dumbledore's plans - but Dumbledore kept things from Snape, so he may have vindictively decided he didn't have to tell Dumbledore everything either. It is kind of immaterial either way because as it happened, Snape did kill Dumbledore as planned by both scenarios.

The whole thing was funky to me because Dumbledore should not have asked Snape to do it - of all people, imo. Snape was basically in rehab and it would seem that asking him to commit more murder would be at cross purposes. I've always felt that strange. But I suppose the Elder Wand - Death Eater business explains it...otherwise he could have asked an Order member Auror - like Kingsley, who would also likely be able to accomplish the task, imo.

The words "Unbreakable Vow" were used by Snape, overheard by Harry, and reported to Dumbledore, months before.

Ah, so yeah, I would say that together with Draco's comment would make it pretty much certain that if Dumbledore didn't already know, he likely figured it out on the roof. I still don't think it makes a difference. In terms of this thread, I don't think it would make a difference to Snape, except that he'd be a bit caught up in one before Dumbledore - but all he'd have to say is 'we all have our little secrets, don't we?' :lol: Nonetheless, if Dumbledore figured it on the roof top, it never came up with Snape in any case. And just as an aside, considering Dumbledore's plan regarding the Elder Wand - even if he thought that it's putting Snape in mortal danger was only a possibility - can one really quibble over Snape making that vow?

Snape HAS to do it one way or another. Dumbledore is dying, plain and simple. There is no way around it. Either he lets Draco kill him, or he does as Dumbledore asks and does it. I'm not sure how this reveals his moral compass.

Well it would reveal anyone's, imo. People draw the line at different places, even for the greater good. Some people would not enact murder against an innocent for any reason - not even for the greater good. Innocent life is held to such high value, that they simply could not. Snape is not among that group, so I feel his moral compass was skewed off North, enabling him to kill an innocent, for whatever reason.

Well it would reveal anyone's, imo. People draw the line at different places, even for the greater good. Some people would not enact murder against an innocent for any reason - not even for the greater good. Innocent life is held to such high value, that they simply could not. Snape is not among that group, so I feel his moral compass was skewed off North, enabling him to kill an innocent, for whatever reason.

So if presented with the same choice as Snape, you'd let Dumbledore rot away from a curse? :hmm:

Well it would reveal anyone's, imo. People draw the line at different places, even for the greater good. Some people would not enact murder against an innocent for any reason - not even for the greater good. Innocent life is held to such high value, that they simply could not. Snape is not among that group, so I feel his moral compass was skewed off North, enabling him to kill an innocent, for whatever reason.

Have to say that I disagree with you here. We can talk about the greater good all we want, it makes no difference to me. Such a thing is virtually impossible to define in the realm of the Potterverse.

As far as I'm concerned- and as far as a lot of the Harry Potter readership are concerned, Draco was granted the task of killing Dumbledore because it was practically inevitable that he would fail- and when he failed, I think the world and its mother expected Voldemort to kill Draco as a punishment to the Malfoy family for Lucius' failures with regard to the prophecy.

Since I take that opinion- which others may agree or disagree with, I have to say that even if I disliked Snape, I would honour what he did- he saved Draco Malfoy's life, and he did it without orders. The Unbreakable Vow was one he took of his own free will, fully understanding the seriousness of it and fully aware of the consequences. In effect, in my opinion, the man signed his own death warrant- to save someone else; someone he did not have to save- and as far as I'm concerned, that is antecedent to any judgement of Snape's character.

So if presented with the same choice as Snape, you'd let Dumbledore rot away from a curse? :hmm:

Yes.

Have to say that I disagree with you here. As far as I'm concerned- and as far as a lot of the Harry Potter readership are concerned, Draco was granted the task of killing Dumbledore because it was practically inevitable that he would fail- and when he failed, I think the world and its mother expected Voldemort to kill Draco as a punishment to the Malfoy family for Lucius' failures with regard to the prophecy.

I agree with that completely.

Since I take that opinion- which others may agree or disagree with, I have to say that even if I disliked Snape, I would honour what he did- he saved Draco Malfoy's life, and he did it without orders. The Unbreakable Vow was one he took of his own free will, fully understanding the seriousness of it and fully aware of the consequences. In effect, in my opinion, the man signed his own death warrant- to save someone else; someone he did not have to save- and as far as I'm concerned, that is antecedent to any judgement of Snape's character.

For me, the bottom line is this: Lucius Malfoy made a horrendous decision to join the Death Eaters and kill many people, imo. Narcissa kicked back and enjoyed the show, imo. They rose their son to follow along in their wake, which he did. Draco then set about causing a lot of near death experiences - behaving in a diabolical manner because any number of people could have died from Katie to Ron to Dumbledore and even Slughorn, imo. That doesn't count all of the deaths he would potentially cause by letting Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Draco quite selfishly took on this duty in order to save his parents - who had behaved in a nafarious manner in getting themselves into the mess they were in imo, and he behaved in a atrocious manner to get the job done.

Compounding that, Dumbledore decides that since he is dying, he will illicit the assistance of a third party - Snape - to come in and attempt to salvage the show for the Malfoys, imo. That "salvage" included his own murder that he had to get Snape to agree to - which didn't take much, imo.

So with that short introduction we get back to the point: Snape. He knows all of the above, he understands his act of killing an innocent to save a bunch of people who behaved in a diabolical manner - and who will continue to do so (except perhaps the son) - is what he is being asked to do. Snape is unaware that Dumbledore's plans extend to other realms and he has been presented with another justification in that Dumbledore is dying and doesn't want to be taken out by Bella, Greyback or their ilk. An 11 year old 1st year could see through that flimsy justification, imo, as not being one at all. So I don't feel Snape was fooled by that nonsense for a moment.

I think Snape understood there was a bigger picture - bigger than the Malfoys and bigger than Dumbledore's death - he simply didn't know what it was. I think he figured out that it would secure his position with Voldemort - also something helpful, but if there was more to it, he was unaware of what that was. But with the sketchy knowledge he had, he promised to kill Dumbledore anyway - and then cut the side deal with Narcissa, sealing the bargain, literally, with his blood.

Snape's moral compass was not pointing at due North to begin with; few people's are - but this just showed that his was headed a bit more South than one might otherwise believe, imo. His agreement to murder an innocent party, for any reason, including at the request of the to be victim, says a lot about the kind of person he is, imo. That some *unknown good* might come of it and that the Malfoys *might be saved* were possibilities, but none of that has anything to do with Snape's willingness to commit murder against an innocent man, imo. The terms were not even a mercy killing - not presented as such (as they were to be timed to some occassion when Bella and Greyback would have a go if Snape didn't) and it didn't turn out that way (Dumbledore was mostly suffering due to his self harm earlier that day - but even then, he was not on his death bed undergoing tremendous pain). So imo, Snape agreed to murder of an innocent, and I can't justify that for any reason. The thing was, Snape's act was in 'indirect' defense of Draco, because Draco wasn't under threat at the time he killed Dumbledore, and Dumbledore wasn't the one threatening Draco, but rather, an outside party (Voldermort) was. So the whole defense of Draco idea kind of falls apart, imo, and it would be better to hide Draco away from the dark lord and not kill the innocent Dumbledore, imo. How and why Draco ended up within the dark lord's reach again I have no idea actually.

Draco is my 3rd favorite character in the series, however, I have no desire whatsoever to make him out to be some kind of great fellow who deserved to be saved. He wallowed into a deep morass, made his choices and - well - when you play with fire, you should wear inflammable clothing and Draco didn't own any, imo. So nobody should have killed an innocent man to save his far less than innocent life, imo. He's my 3rd favorite for the indivdual he was characterized as being in canon - and the great majority of it isn't good at all. :lol:.

Have to say that I disagree with you here. We can talk about the greater good all we want, it makes no difference to me. Such a thing is virtually impossible to define in the realm of the Potterverse.

As far as I'm concerned- and as far as a lot of the Harry Potter readership are concerned, Draco was granted the task of killing Dumbledore because it was practically inevitable that he would fail- and when he failed, I think the world and its mother expected Voldemort to kill Draco as a punishment to the Malfoy family for Lucius' failures with regard to the prophecy.

Since I take that opinion- which others may agree or disagree with, I have to say that even if I disliked Snape, I would honour what he did- he saved Draco Malfoy's life, and he did it without orders. The Unbreakable Vow was one he took of his own free will, fully understanding the seriousness of it and fully aware of the consequences. In effect, in my opinion, the man signed his own death warrant- to save someone else; someone he did not have to save- and as far as I'm concerned, that is antecedent to any judgement of Snape's character.

Thank you!! :tu: :tu: :tu: I'll go on to add to this... not only did he save Dumbledore the misery of the curse that was going to kill him, but he saved Draco's soul. Guess that doesn't count for much to some folks.


Yes


Wow, sorry but to me that lacks a whole lot of compassion.

In Harry and the Half-Blood Prince, right before Snape kills Dumbledore, canon tells us that, "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."
It sounds like this hatred and bitterness was built up over the years.
Did it start when Dumbledore failed to prevent Lily's death? I think it may have, but I am not sure.
I think that some of the bitterness may also have been from Dumbledore withholding information from Snape and Snape being refused the position as Defense Against the Dark Arts professor for so long. I am sure that there were other things that may have built up Snape's anger against Dumbledore. What do you think? Am I misunderstanding Rowling's statement?

Wow, sorry but to me that lacks a whole lot of compassion.

Well I don't see it as Snape would lack compassion - but rather that he would fundamentally be against killing an innocent. Allowing Dumbledore's life to take its natural course would have been an act of compassion to me, because you never know what could have happened - for example, perhaps some other person into the dark arts would find a cure. Naturally, if Dumbledore was bedridden and suffering for weeks the scenario would change, but that was never Dumbledore's plan, per his own words. What Snape could have suggested was that Dumbledore simply make it look like Snape had killed him (if that was important to his plans), and then Dumbledore could use other measures if he wished to die. But I respect the fact that everyone has distinct takes on Snape's decision. :)

In Harry and the Half-Blood Prince, right before Snape kills Dumbledore, canon tells us that, "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."
It sounds like this hatred and bitterness was built up over the years.
Did it start when Dumbledore failed to prevent Lily's death? I think it may have, but I am not sure.
I think that some of the bitterness may also have been from Dumbledore withholding information from Snape and Snape being refused the position as Defense Against the Dark Arts professor for so long. I am sure that there were other things that may have built up Snape's anger against Dumbledore. What do you think? Am I misunderstanding Rowling's statement?

My understanding was that Snape's look was in light of the act he had to perform - aimed more at himself - rather than aimed at Dumbledore. Although Snape wrongly decided to do it, imo, and I feel had killed many times before as a DE, I still feel it was difficult to actually undertake because I don't believe he hated Dumbledore - on the contrary, I think he liked him. I also believe that Snape knew the act was wrong, per se, so that too may have been a consideration.

There will be no discussion of euthanasia in this thread! Also, cut back on the aggressiveness. Activity in this thread does not necessarily have to lead to bickering, agreed?

However, I see way more correlation between Voldemort and Snape - neither of which had any problem killing off a new born baby

Ok, I think you realise this is manipulative use of language (which I think is a wee bit unfair as well as unnecessary in a debate where none of the sides has any real agenda ;)), plus, one-year-old is hardly "new-born".

So if presented with the same choice as Snape, you'd let Dumbledore rot away from a curse?
Yes.

Ok, you would, but that means neither that it's THE right thing to do for everyone, nor that your own view incapacitates you to try to understand someone else's view on the issue and where they are coming from. In short, "I would do it" doesn't mean "it's the only right way and any other ways are evidence of evil".

I don't think Severus saved Draco becasue he deserved to be saved I think it was more becasue he was in a possition to save him and he wanted to spare Cissy & Lucius the pain of watching thier son slowly fail the DL knowing that it would lead to his eventual death.

I don't think Severus is arrogant enough to think he is able to judge others in such a manner and I think he is wise enought to know no-one ever is. It still more comfortable with a man who no longer works for a group, but against one that believes that some are more worthy of life than others jmho :)

Ok, you would, but that means neither that it's THE right thing to do for everyone, nor that your own view incapacitates you to try to understand someone else's view on the issue and where they are coming from. In short, "I would do it" doesn't mean "it's the only right way and any other ways are evidence of evil".
Well said! :tu:

I would like to add that this is a thread for discussing and analysing the character of Severus Snape, and not a thread on which he is put on trial.

As far as I'm concerned- and as far as a lot of the Harry Potter readership are concerned, Draco was granted the task of killing Dumbledore because it was practically inevitable that he would fail- and when he failed, I think the world and its mother expected Voldemort to kill Draco as a punishment to the Malfoy family for Lucius' failures with regard to the prophecy.

Since I take that opinion- which others may agree or disagree with, I have to say that even if I disliked Snape, I would honour what he did- he saved Draco Malfoy's life, and he did it without orders. The Unbreakable Vow was one he took of his own free will, fully understanding the seriousness of it and fully aware of the consequences. In effect, in my opinion, the man signed his own death warrant- to save someone else; someone he did not have to save- and as far as I'm concerned, that is antecedent to any judgement of Snape's character.

:tu::tu::tu:

Compounding that, Dumbledore decides that since he is dying, he will illicit the assistance of a third party - Snape - to come in and attempt to salvage the show for the Malfoys, imo. That "salvage" included his own murder that he had to get Snape to agree to - which didn't take much, imo.

So with that short introduction we get back to the point: Snape. He knows all of the above, he understands his act of killing an innocent to save a bunch of people who behaved in a diabolical manner - and who will continue to do so (except perhaps the son) - is what he is being asked to do. Snape is unaware that Dumbledore's plans extend to other realms and he has been presented with another justification in that Dumbledore is dying and doesn't want to be taken out by Bella, Greyback or their ilk. An 11 year old 1st year could see through that flimsy justification, imo, as not being one at all. So I don't feel Snape was fooled by that nonsense for a moment.

Do you think Rowling is presenting Dumbledore as being insincere, then? :hmm: (Sorry, that is really for the Dumbledore thread. :whistle: )

To return to Snape:

I think Snape understood there was a bigger picture - bigger than the Malfoys and bigger than Dumbledore's death - he simply didn't know what it was. I think he figured out that it would secure his position with Voldemort - also something helpful, but if there was more to it, he was unaware of what that was. But with the sketchy knowledge he had, he promised to kill Dumbledore anyway - and then cut the side deal with Narcissa, sealing the bargain, literally, with his blood.

Why do you think he was bothered about securing his position with Voldemort? :hmm:

staff edit: ignoring in-thread

I think that he was bothered about securing his position with Voldemort because he needed the information that only being inside Voldemort's inner circle could give him...

This being said, I think that in a way Snape enjoyed being in Voldemort's inner circle. I think he enjoyed it in the way that it was a position of trust and power, which although he was doing it on the orders of Dumbledore, I don't think that he ever got that from him. Also, I think that Snape would have enjoyed tricking someone as powerful as Voldemort right under his nose

Several posts have been deleted. When I say that euthanasia (killing someone who is about to die painfully as an act of mercy) is out of bounds I expect you all to stop discussing the matter.

Since I take that opinion- which others may agree or disagree with, I have to say that even if I disliked Snape, I would honour what he did- he saved Draco Malfoy's life, and he did it without orders. The Unbreakable Vow was one he took of his own free will, fully understanding the seriousness of it and fully aware of the consequences. In effect, in my opinion, the man signed his own death warrant- to save someone else; someone he did not have to save- and as far as I'm concerned, that is antecedent to any judgement of Snape's character.

Thanks for saying that, Ducky - I think you're right.

Snape clearly says to Dumbledore that he didn't want to kill him, so how could that possibly be vindictive or lacking a moral compass. That's the essence of a moral compass, imo. But Dumbledore told him he didn't want Bellatrix or Fenrir to mutilate his body - to "play with their food" as he put it. It's gross, but it's right there in the canon. In those terms, what kind of man would Snape really be if he said "no" to Dumbledore? :rolleyes:

About the Unbreakable Vow: It's another case of Snape showing selflessness. By definition, the Vow is is "do or die." I believe Narcissa when she says that Snape is the "only one" who would do that for their family. Most Death Eaters really are out for themselves and wouldn't be willing to die to save someone, but Snape is different, and the Malfoys know it.

Snape clearly says to Dumbledore that he didn't want to kill him, so how could that possibly be vindictive or lacking a moral compass. That's the essence of a moral compass, imo. But Dumbledore told him he didn't want Bellatrix or Fenrir to mutilate his body - to "play with their food" as he put it. It's gross, but it's right there in the canon. In those terms, what kind of man would Snape really be if he said "no" to Dumbledore? :rolleyes:

If a situation came up where Dumbledore was captured and was being tortured.... which was highly unlikely in my opinion, but it is always good to have a plan in place just in case.

About the Unbreakable Vow: It's another case of Snape showing selflessness. By definition, the Vow is is "do or die." I believe Narcissa when she says that Snape is the "only one" who would do that for their family. Most Death Eaters really are out for themselves and wouldn't be willing to die to save someone, but Snape is different, and the Malfoys know it.

The Unbreakable Vow wasn't about saving Dumbledore from torture, though. It was about doing Draco's dirty work should Draco fail. For the Vow it doesn't matter at all what state Dumbledore was in, but rather what was going on with Draco.

So, in my opinion, the Vow and what Dumbledore asked of Snape do not necessarily coincide, except by lucky coincidence.

If a situation came up where Dumbledore was captured and was being tortured.... which was highly unlikely in my opinion, but it is always good to have a plan in place just in case.

But once again, Dumbledore guessed right - Fenrir was there on the Tower, and it's only because of Snape's spell that his body floated away from the Death Eaters.


The Unbreakable Vow wasn't about saving Dumbledore from torture, though. It was about doing Draco's dirty work should Draco fail. For the Vow it doesn't matter at all what state Dumbledore was in, but rather what was going on with Draco.

So, in my opinion, the Vow and what Dumbledore asked of Snape do not necessarily coincide, except by lucky coincidence.

But when Snape makes the Vow, he already knows that Dumbledore only had a year to live because of his hand. He's already helped him stay alive for another year, and we have the scene in Prince's Tale in which Snape chastises Dumbledore for putting on the cursed ring in the first place.

Snape didn't take the Vow so he could kill Dumbledore - he had just saved Dumbledore's life. He made the Vow to prove to Bellatrix that he was loyal to the Malfoys, which was the truth - he's a loyal friend, and as Head of Slytherin he was going to protect Draco anyway. In my opinion, Narcissa knew that, too, but tricked him with the last part of the vow.

As one of my friends said when she first read that scene - Snape gambled and got caught in a trap.

I think he enjoyed it in the way that it was a position of trust and power, which although he was doing it on the orders of Dumbledore, I don't think that he ever got that from him.

"I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, that I have you, Severus." - ALbus Dumbledore (DH)

"I trust Severus Snape completely" - HBP

"He is now no more a Death Eater than I am" - Albus Dumbledore, GoF

And Severus has noticed!

"Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched teeth. "I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!" - Severus Snape, GoF

But once again, Dumbledore guessed right - Fenrir was there on the Tower, and it's only because of Snape's spell that his body floated away from the Death Eaters.

Dumbledore himself said that he never thought Draco could get death Eaters into Hogwarts, and I believe him. In my opinion the scenario Dumbledore outlined was unlikely. Even up on the tower we weren't going to get a prolonged torture scene-- the Death eaters were ready to kill should both Draco and Snape fail, but they did not have unlimited time. The Order was fighting them on the floor below, the Aurors could well be on there way, and they had to escape still. In that situation, Snape carries out his promise to Dumbledore and Narcissa, but he only saves Dumbledore from being killed by some random Death Eater. For outsiders looking in, though, it's not going to look much different than if some random Death eater did it. Maybe worse. The Order was betrayed, lost their leader, and their spy, which is an aweful triple whammy.

But when Snape makes the Vow, he already knows that Dumbledore only had a year to live because of his hand. He's already helped him stay alive for another year, and we have the scene in Prince's Tale in which Snape chastises Dumbledore for putting on the cursed ring in the first place.

Snape didn't take the Vow so he could kill Dumbledore - he had just saved Dumbledore's life. He made the Vow to prove to Bellatrix that he was loyal to the Malfoys, which was the truth - he's a loyal friend, and as Head of Slytherin he was going to protect Draco anyway. In my opinion, Narcissa knew that, too, but tricked him with the last part of the vow.

As one of my friends said when she first read that scene - Snape gambled and got caught in a trap.

I agree that Narcissa tricked him. When Snape started the Vow, he had no idea she would throw in that last bit!

"I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, that I have you, Severus." - ALbus Dumbledore (DH)

"I trust Severus Snape completely" - HBP

"He is now no more a Death Eater than I am" - Albus Dumbledore, GoF

And Severus has noticed!

"Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched teeth. "I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!" - Severus Snape, GoF

Trust perhaps, but not power. He only got the job he wanted because of a plan between him and Dumbledore.

Trust perhaps, but not power. He only got the job he wanted because of a plan between him and Dumbledore.

Right, so he achieved "power" as Headmaster, is that what you are saying? (Surely you don't mean teaching DADA...as Head of House he already has more "power"). Yet it seems that he used that position to try and keep the commitment he made to Dumbledore to protect the students, rather than for self-aggrandizement.

But once again, Dumbledore guessed right - Fenrir was there on the Tower, and it's only because of Snape's spell that his body floated away from the Death Eaters.

Fenrir is a werewolf - and although a pretty knarly one, we never heard of him wishing to attack after a person was killed. Why would he do that?

Snape didn't take the Vow so he could kill Dumbledore - he had just saved Dumbledore's life. He made the Vow to prove to Bellatrix that he was loyal to the Malfoys, which was the truth - he's a loyal friend, and as Head of Slytherin he was going to protect Draco anyway. In my opinion, Narcissa knew that, too, but tricked him with the last part of the vow.

As one of my friends said when she first read that scene - Snape gambled and got caught in a trap.

But the last part was immaterial wasn't it? If you break an unbreakable vow, you die no matter whether that is a part of the bargain or not. That is why Molly got angry with the twins for trying to make one with Ron. Snape agreed prior to the vow to the essence of the deal - to go in and kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't. Narcissa didn't have to mention Snape's death upon breaking the vow, that is how it works, imo.

Fenrir is a werewolf - and although a pretty knarly one, we never heard of him wishing to attack after a person was killed. Why would he do that?


Maybe SIP means that the Death Eaters wouldn't be able to damage or use his Dumbledore's body in a humilating way, like Voldemort did when he cast Crucio on what he thought was Harry's died body.

Plus, he might just to check Dumbledore was dead, he was very bloodthirsty.

Right, so he achieved "power" as Headmaster, is that what you are saying? (Surely you don't mean teaching DADA...as Head of House he already has more "power"). Yet it seems that he used that position to try and keep the commitment he made to Dumbledore to protect the students, rather than for self-aggrandizement.

I thought the subject was the power Snape got as a Death Eater. He was like Voldemort's right hand man. The Death Eaters, for example, allowed him to step in and handle matters on the tower without a word (HBP). Bella seemed to be the only one unwilling to readily accept Snape's position, but that may have been partially out of jealousy because I feel she wanted to hold the spot next to Voldy. Snape did reach a position within the Death Eaters that he'd wanted when young, but I have my doubts that he was as pleased with attaining it as he would have been if he were actually a Death Eater.

Fenrir is a werewolf - and although a pretty knarly one, we never heard of him wishing to attack after a person was killed. Why would he do that?

Well, he might do it to a still-living person, no? He did it to Bill, after all, and he threatens it on the Tower.

Maybe SIP means that the Death Eaters wouldn't be able to damage or use his Dumbledore's body in a humilating way, like Voldemort did when he cast Crucio on what he thought was Harry's died body.

Well that was just to ensure Harry was dead. I think after the AK, they would know that Dumbledore was dead - Snape didn't also get knocked out or anything which is what happened with Voldemort, making him wonder exactly what was up.

Well, he might do it to a still-living person, no? He did it to Bill, after all, and he threatens it on the Tower.

Yup. I was responding to SIP saying that Snape's AK caused Dumbledore's body to float away - well it actually tumbled away over the tower. But the idea was that he was already dead, if I understood correctly. That was the only curse that Snape performed if I am recalling correctly.

Right, so he achieved "power" as Headmaster, is that what you are saying? (Surely you don't mean teaching DADA...as Head of House he already has more "power"). Yet it seems that he used that position to try and keep the commitment he made to Dumbledore to protect the students, rather than for self-aggrandizement.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make- Dumbledore never gave him the power...Voldemort did

Ok, I think you realise this is manipulative use of language (which I think is a wee bit unfair as well as unnecessary in a debate where none of the sides has any real agenda ;)), plus, one-year-old is hardly "new-born".

I agree it would be, but that wasn't my point. The idea was that Snape and Voldemort had something in common at that point - and because people debate whether Snape was actually involved in any of the killing and such as a Death Eater, I used the only thing we know he did - and Voldemort did. The child was unborn at the time the prophecy was carried and Voldemort receieved the news. The point was that no matter what else Snape did at that time, we know he was involved in that, which imo, was enough to show how immersed in the DE theology he was.

But the point was only that one "could say" - because to me, JKR wasn't trying to draw character analogies, at most, perhaps a similar feeling or character trait, but not overall character types, imo.

Ok, you would, but that means neither that it's THE right thing to do for everyone, nor that your own view incapacitates you to try to understand someone else's view on the issue and where they are coming from. In short, "I would do it" doesn't mean "it's the only right way and any other ways are evidence of evil".

Agreed, but I was specifically asked my opinion. Of course I respect the fact that everyone will differ in their take on Snape's decisions. :) Saving Draco is a nice idea, but killing Dumbledore in order to do so is not something I can agree with. However, I don't think that was the only purpose - I don't feel that Snape thought so either.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make- Dumbledore never gave him the power...Voldemort did

Yeah, but to be honest, Snape didn't seem to relish in that power too much...

Fenrir is a werewolf - and although a pretty knarly one, we never heard of him wishing to attack after a person was killed. Why would he do that?


It is not beyond reason to think that 1) the DEs were notorious for mutilating a dead body of their enemy. (Rowling draws on world history here. Many warmongers throughout time considered it even mandatory to mutilate and humiliate their enemies dead bodies- especially if it was a leader or someone who inspired people.) Lupin makes a point of this and we see what happens to Moody's corpse. 2) Fenrir was working with the DEs at the time and had Snape not stepped in to AK Dumbledore- Fenrir would have delighted in going after Dumbledore like a dog on a bone. (Even though he preferred children *shudder*)

This was the immediate context which Rowling laid out for Snape's call to action on that tower.

About the Unbreakable Vow: It's another case of Snape showing selflessness. By definition, the Vow is is "do or die." I believe Narcissa when she says that Snape is the "only one" who would do that for their family. Most Death Eaters really are out for themselves and wouldn't be willing to die to save someone, but Snape is different, and the Malfoys know it.
I do not interpret Snape in these scene as being selfless. He had already agreed to kill Dumbledore before Draco, Bellatrix, Fenrir, etc. could. Therefore, I see Snape agreeing to the terms of the Unbreakable Vow as a way to ensure his "loyalty" to Voldemort. If Snape had objected to performing Draco's task if Draco should be unable, he would no longer be a trustworthy Death Eater - his loyalty to Dumbledore would be exposed.

He did demonstrate selflessness, I think, in agreeing to kill Dumbledore in the first place, but I do not think he did by making the Unbreakable Vow. Yes, he knew the consequences of possible death if he failed, but I believe he knew he was not going to fail, so it was not much of a risk for him.
But once again, Dumbledore guessed right - Fenrir was there on the Tower, and it's only because of Snape's spell that his body floated away from the Death Eaters.
I never read this scene as such, and it could be very plausible. However, I slightly doubt it, since Snape yelled to the other Death Eaters, immediately after killing Dumbledore, to follow him - they had to leave swiftly. They all knew their time was limited, so even if Dumbledore's body remained on the tower, I do not think any of the Death Eaters would have mangled his body or made a display of it. Snape seemed to know Harry was on the tower as well, so he would have assumed Harry would protect Dumbledore's body from any tactics of the Death Eaters.
I agree that Narcissa tricked him. When Snape started the Vow, he had no idea she would throw in that last bit!
I am unconvinced. I think Snape agreed to making the Unbreakable Vow with the thought that Narcissa would ask him to complete Draco's task if necessary. However, he did agree to making the Vow because he had already agreed to kill Dumbledore, and by accepting Narcissa's plea he ensured his apparent status as a loyal Death Eater.

Dumbledore does make a pretty long speech to Snape about what Bella and Fenrir might do if Snape does not finish him. It is this speech, in fact, that finally convinces Snape.

BTW, IIRC, JKR did have body mutilation in mind when she killed Cedric, at least, because she mentioned that she had Harry carry him away because she didn't want the body at the mercy of an angry Voldemort/DEs.

It is not beyond reason to think that 1) the DEs were notorious for mutilating a dead body of their enemy. (Rowling draws on world history here. Many warmongers throughout time considered it even mandatory to mutilate and humiliate their enemies dead bodies- especially if it was a leader or someone who inspired people.) Lupin makes a point of this and we see what happens to Moody's corpse. 2) Fenrir was working with the DEs at the time and had Snape not stepped in to AK Dumbledore- Fenrir would have delighted in going after Dumbledore like a dog on a bone. (Even though he preferred children *shudder*)

This was the immediate context which Rowling laid out for Snape's call to action on that tower.

I respect your view, but I think Old Mother Crow responded to this above in a very excellent manner. If there was time, I feel that the DEs might have taken their vengeance and anger out on Dumbledore - but there wasn't time. I don't characterize Fenrir the same way, so we would have to agree to disagree on that. :)

ETA: Another factor is that the response of those doing the killing (good side bad side) varies depending on who they are dealing with and their state of mind. Sirius egged on Bella; Bella egged on Molly; Harry crucioed Carrow - for example. But when it came to certain individuals, like Dumbledore and Voldemort - we don't see this same response because I feel that they understood they were dealing with someone very powerful and the idea of playing little games with them would be out of the question (prior to killing them - the above addresses afterward).

Getting back to Snape - again, I think he understood there was more to it all that met the eye. I think he just blindly trusted Dumbledore (as so many seemed proned to do) and took for granted that in the end, whatever the plan was, it would be aimed at Voldemort's destruction. I don't think Snape believed that anyone was unintelligent enough to try to toy with Dumbledore - they would wish to kill him immediately before he was able to call on his wealth of magic. Snape miscalculated because he attributed that to only Dumbledore and Voldemort - but there was another with equal power, albeit in extraordinary forms, and that was Harry. So Snape's attack on Harry, just after killing Dumbledore, failed as well, precisely because you don't toy with these types of individuals. Harry himself had little in the way of prowess or formidable magic ability at that point - but he didn't need it to survive because he had something far more powerful in his pocket, imo. So while I believe it possible people would miscalculate with Harry, I don't feel the same would be the case with Voldemort or Dumbledore - everyone knew of their ability.

Saving Draco is a nice idea, but killing Dumbledore in order to do so is not something I can agree with. However, I don't think that was the only purpose - I don't feel that Snape thought so either.

Snape agreed with you, Wick. :D The other reason, the reason Snape found more compelling, is right there in black and white in the Prince's Tale, for any reader who cares to look up the scene in which this plan is discussed.

I'm really glad that the topic has shifted away from mutilation. That doesn't belong in the analysis thread.

Snape agreed with you, Wick. :D The other reason, the reason Snape found more compelling, is right there in black and white in the Prince's Tale, for any reader who cares to look up the scene in which this plan is discussed.

I agree - but honestly, I think Snape understood there was more to it than what he learned in that conversation too. In my opinion, it was the 'blind trust' that served as the biggest factor because Snape knew that he did not know the entire plan. Again, many assisted Dumbledore with that same blind trust (including Harry) - so it isn't an anomoly in my view.

He did demonstrate selflessness, I think, in agreeing to kill Dumbledore in the first place, but I do not think he did by making the Unbreakable Vow. Yes, he knew the consequences of possible death if he failed, but I believe he knew he was not going to fail, so it was not much of a risk for him.
But we do have Snape telling Dumbledore that he may have changed his mind about killing him, which implies that he was prepared to die rather than do something he thought was wrong.

But we do have Snape telling Dumbledore that he may have changed his mind about killing him, which implies that he was prepared to die rather than do something he thought was wrong.

My impression was that was hyperbole. He was just upset because he felt Dumbledore had shared more with Harry than with him, imo. And to support that is the fact that Dumbledore still didn't reveal everything - and he told him he would not (put all his eggs in one basket that was close to Voldy). But Snape carried on in any case. Snape didn't say that he felt what he was going to do was wrong, he was just saying that he did not want to be left out of the loop. The information he did get did not justify his killing Dumbledore, imo. I mean it could have, because Dumbledore told Snape that he'd been behaving in a machiavellian manner - but since Snape thereafter adopted the same ideology, I can't say that the information bothered him relative to morality; I think it was just shocking to him that Dumbledore's moral compass pointed much further from North than he'd originally believed.

Frankly, I have no idea why Snape continued to trust Dumbledore after that point. It was the second time that he'd deceived Snape in a major way - and true to form, he did it again.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make- Dumbledore never gave him the power...Voldemort did

Snape as Headmaster under Voldemort had no power at all IMO. Snape was merely doing another job, where there was no security or freedom. He was merely Voldemort's puppet as all DEs and pretend DEs (like Snape) were.

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On the Snape killing Dumbledore issue, I think Snape agreed to kill Dumbledore because 1) he was dying with death approaching within a year; 2) Dumbledore wanted to avoid Bella and others from torturing him before he died, if Draco's plan came through; 3) he agreed with Dumbledore that would get him into Voldemort's "most trusted" DE category and ensure he would become the Headmaster and thus take care of the students and also remove Bella or any other DE from occupying the Head's office, keeping him in contact with Dumbledore all the time. For Dumbledore it made Snape the apparent Master of the Elder Wand and it saved Draco.

I think if Snape could have avoided killing Dumbledore, he would have. I mean, the repercussions of killing Dumbledore, a man who Voldemort himself was afraid of, was something no one would do; it was as good as signing a death warrant in the WW. I think Snape found simple human kindness, war strategy and saving another boy as reason enough to agree to Dumbledore's request and Dumbledore had only one reason.

To make the EW's power die with him and along the way to save Draco IMO.

I am unconvinced. I think Snape agreed to making the Unbreakable Vow with the thought that Narcissa would ask him to complete Draco's task if necessary. However, he did agree to making the Vow because he had already agreed to kill Dumbledore, and by accepting Narcissa's plea he ensured his apparent status as a loyal Death Eater.

I honestly think it's really this simple.

Sometimes if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.... :lol:

I am unconvinced. I think Snape agreed to making the Unbreakable Vow with the thought that Narcissa would ask him to complete Draco's task if necessary. However, he did agree to making the Vow because he had already agreed to kill Dumbledore, and by accepting Narcissa's plea he ensured his apparent status as a loyal Death Eater.Well to me the hesitation and the twitch imply that he wasn't expecting it. I don't find this surprising because asking Snape to help and protect Draco is one thing. To ask Severus to complete a task that has been given to Draco by Voldemort is to go against the Dark Lord - or at least behind his back. Narcissa has already done this to some extent by coming to Severus, but prior to the Vow it could be explained that she was merely asking him to help Draco. When Narcissa asks him within the confnes of the Vow to complete the task if it looks like Draco should fail and Severus agrees to do it all three (Cissy, Severus and Bella)risk the wrath of Voldemort should he find out. So while Severus was willing to go along with Narcissa's request because as we all know he had already agreed to kill Dumbledore, to me the twitch indicates that he wasn't expecting this request from Cissy and knew that he was putting himself in a very difficult position. Hence the title of the chapter - Spinner's End - which IMO refers not just to the place where Severus lives, but is also a reference to Severus the "spinner" of lies to deceive Voldemort being caught in a trap. IMO if Severus had been a true Death Eater then he would have not only refused to take the Vow but would have reported Narcissa's request to Voldemort. That is what I think any other loyal Death Eater would have done, and I also think that Severus could have used this an excuse not to take the Vow. However I think he did have compassion for Narcissa and that perhaps by helping her - and being prepared to risk his life to help her - he was in some small way making atonement for another mother who died to save her son. I also think he wanted to wipe the smug self-satisfied smile off Bella's face!

posted by HHRphoenix
The thing I argue with myself is did Harry respect Snape because he was brave or because he loved Lily?

I think it was both and possibly a bit more. I like to think Harry understood Snape; saw him more than a two dimensional character as he did in the Books, once he saw the memories and realised there was more to Snape than just just taking off points and sneering at Gryffindors.

And does the fact that Snape love Lily automatically forgive him for his hatred of James and Sirius and maybe even Harry to an extent?

No; I don't think there is a forgiving as much as an understanding; understanding of Snape's motives, his actions over the years. That he explains to Harry, or even the fact that Snape felt he needed to explain his actions, I hope would make Harry understand Snape as the person very different from what Harry thought Snape was.

And does the fact that Snape love Lily automatically forgive him for his hatred of James and Sirius and maybe even Harry to an extent?
Well IMO forgiveness is a personal thing that is given by the person who was hurt. So it is up to James and Sirius to forgive Severus for hating them - just as it is up to Severus to forgive James and Sirius for hating him. It is sad that Severus is a judgemental person and will not forgive, because not only does this cause him to hang on to old grudges, but he also judges himself and refuses to forgive himself so he is unable to ever rid himself of the burden of guilt.

I thought it was only about Harry forgiving Snape, even when there was a James and Sirius in there. :blush: :blush:

I don't think Snape would forgive James and Sirius. With Harry there was nothing to forgive on Snape's part, except peeping into the memory, but since Snape showed him later, it did not matter. Harry had to forgive Snape for the way he was treated in School; but I feel that came easy for Harry once he knew the reason why.

Between James, Sirius and Snape, I feel there is too much history and none of it good. And all of them died young, and while they lived they had no time to think about relationships, especially such complicated ones as they had between them.

I don't think Snape would forgive James and Sirius. With Harry there was nothing to forgive on Snape's part, except peeping into the memory, but since Snape showed him later, it did not matter. Harry had to forgive Snape for the way he was treated in School; but I feel that came easy for Harry once he knew the reason why.

To me, not forgiving school yard pranks and fights between kids doesn't matter at all - if they want to all go on holding grudges for childish silly acts, thats just their problem. :lol:.

Harry had to forgive Snape's treatment of him as a professor, imo. But all the Potters would have to forgive Snape for a part in the deaths of the parents and leaving Harry an orphan, despite the fact that he loathed the male potters and imo, coveted the wife/mother. As to these things, Snape had nothing to forgive, imo, but only to be forgiven. But I feel that has nothing to do with Snape; Harry forgave, but we don't know if his parents did or not. We have a clue in that James would give Peter quarter, according to the canon - but we don't have any canon about Lily that I recall.

But we do have Snape telling Dumbledore that he may have changed his mind about killing him, which implies that he was prepared to die rather than do something he thought was wrong.
I read that as an empty threat. As Dumbledore says right after, "You gave me your word, Severus." If we are to think of Snape as an honest, loyal man, I think we also have to see him as someone who would not break a promise - especially to Dumbledore. Snape was angry when he said this because Dumbledore was leaving him in the dark, just like Harry was angry with Dumbledore for not telling him everything. However, both kept to their promises and trusted Dumbledore and completed the tasks Albus wanted completed.
Well to me the hesitation and the twitch imply that he wasn't expecting it. I don't find this surprising because asking Snape to help and protect Draco is one thing.
I understand your interpretation, but I view it differently. I simply think Snape's hesitation was because he knew he was condemning himself to kill Dumbledore. Before the Vow, he could have turned his back on Dumbledore's wish, if he wanted. I do not think he would have, but he had the choice. The Unbreakable Vow eliminated that choice. Snape was forcing himself to obey Dumbledore, and I think the idea of killing one's idol is enough to cause a moment's hesitation.
IMO if Severus had been a true Death Eater then he would have not only refused to take the Vow but would have reported Narcissa's request to Voldemort. That is what I think any other loyal Death Eater would have done, and I also think that Severus could have used this an excuse not to take the Vow.
This is the main problem I see: an excuse. Snape could not continue to make excuses at this point. He had to prove his loyalty to Narcissa and Bellatrix (especially) in order to prove his loyalty to Voldemort. If Snape made another excuse (which Bellatrix taunts him with: "Aren't you listening, Narcisssa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action.... Oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!") he would have proclaimed disloyalty to Voldemort and loyalty to Dumbledore to Bellatrix. As I see it, Bellatrix is just as dangerous as Voldemort at this point, since she would have almost foolproof evidence that Snape is Dumbledore's man, and she would notify Voldemort and the other Death Eaters.

Even if Narcissa requesting the Vow and Snape's help was disloyal to Voldemort, I think Voldemort would wonder why Snape did not make the Vow. "I did not want to betray you" does not seem an excuse Voldemort would take. Snape said himself that he thought Voldemort wanted him to complete Draco's task. Voldemort would naturally be happy that Snape made a Vow ensuring that Snape would kill Dumbledore, which (to Voldemort) would show that Snape was his man.

This is the main problem I see: an excuse. Snape could not continue to make excuses at this point. He had to prove his loyalty to Narcissa and Bellatrix (especially) in order to prove his loyalty to Voldemort. If Snape made another excuse (which Bellatrix taunts him with: "Aren't you listening, Narcisssa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action.... Oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!") he would have proclaimed disloyalty to Voldemort and loyalty to Dumbledore to Bellatrix. As I see it, Bellatrix is just as dangerous as Voldemort at this point, since she would have almost foolproof evidence that Snape is Dumbledore's man, and she would notify Voldemort and the other Death Eaters.

I would respectfully disagree. I think Snape did it out of some feeling of friendship for Lucius. That is because he had the best excuse in the world not to do it: it defied Voldemort's Orders. Voldemort set up Draco to take the fall and Snape was working with Narcissa and Bella to undercut his desire in that regard. Snape was showing disloyalty to Voldemort in making the vow, not loyalty. Snape could have gone to Voldy and told him what Narcissa and Bella had tried to do and got them fried - meaning got Voldy's wrath up against them.

So Snape taking the vow, to me, only makes sense in terms of his actually wishing to do it for Lucius, and perhaps Narcissa. And since he'd already promised to kill Dumbledore, it didn't matter - except that he would be placing his life on the line and thus, forcing himself to do it or die.

What of Snape's soul, indeed - JKR was playing it very close to the line on that one, imo. He made a vow to murder another under circumstances which he'd been told (by Dumbledore) were likely to entail his being forced to do it. And JKR had Snape agree to do it in the first place - which so does not justify the red herring she tried to pull in the 6th book with the murder, imo. The lapdog excuse does not work for Pettigrew and it does not work for Snape, imo. Pettigrew and Snape's storylines have so much in common, it is not surprising JKR marked them with the same traits of vulnerability and insecurity - but it also explains their behavior in the face of dealing with the "powerful ones" in my judgment.

Even if Narcissa requesting the Vow and Snape's help was disloyal to Voldemort, I think Voldemort would wonder why Snape did not make the Vow. "I did not want to betray you" does not seem an excuse Voldemort would take. Snape said himself that he thought Voldemort wanted him to complete Draco's task. Voldemort would naturally be happy that Snape made a Vow ensuring that Snape would kill Dumbledore, which (to Voldemort) would show that Snape was his man.

I disagree. That would also mean that what Voldemort was doing with Draco was of next to no importance to him. If that was the case, it rips apart the whole basis for Draco's storyline. Quite commonly storylines are ripped apart to try to make sense of Snape's words and actions, imo, but I don't go for that. I feel the reasoning to me, has to make sense in terms of the entire storyline, not just Snape's subplot.

To me, Voldemort was not 'just kidding around' with Draco. More importantly, Bella and Narcissa would NEVER tell Voldemort they had tried to betray him and be disloyal behind his back, imo. So Snape didn't have to fear that, imo.

What of Snape's soul, indeed - JKR was playing it very close to the line on that one, imo. He made a vow to murder another under circumstances which he'd been told (by Dumbledore) were likely to entail his being forced to do it. And JKR had Snape agree to do it in the first place - which so does not justify the red herring she tried to pull in the 6th book with the murder, imo. The lapdog excuse does not work for Pettigrew and it does not work for Snape, imo. Pettigrew and Snape's storylines have so much in common, it is not surprising JKR marked them with the same traits of vulnerability and insecurity - but it also explains their behavior in the face of dealing with the "powerful ones" in my judgment.

No, I don't agree with this. :hmm: Obviously the Snape and Peter storylines are closely connected but the behaviour of both men is very different when dealing with the 'powerful ones'. :huh:

Peter just wanted to be with the biggest gang. Whereas Severus has no qualms about working against the strongest one of them all in order to bring him down, and will do whatever it takes to bring him down.

IMO, Peter showed great cowardice when he sold out his closest friends. But Snape was not a coward. And that was the judgement on him of both Dumbledore and Harry. :cool:

He certainly is not always a good man -- far from it -- but, IMO, he is a better man than Peter. :lol: :)

No, I don't agree with this. :hmm: Obviously the Snape and Peter storylines are closely connected but the behaviour of both men is very different when dealing with the 'powerful ones'. :huh:

Peter just wanted to be with the biggest gang. Whereas Severus has no qualms about working against the strongest one of them all in order to bring him down, and will do whatever it takes to bring him down.

IMO, Peter showed great cowardice when he sold out his closest friends. But Snape was not a coward. And that was the judgement on him of both Dumbledore and Harry. :cool:

He certainly is not always a good man -- far from it -- but, IMO, he is a better man than Peter. :lol: :)

I said their storylines have a lot in common - not their characters. :lol:. They quite obviously went in opposite directions.

They have two similar character traits, another point - which sent them both searching for a means of power (for protection or greatness), imo. When dealing with Voldemort, Peter behaved like a lap dog, doing all he was ordered to help ensure his lord and master would be the supreme ruler - in consequence, Voldemort would win. When working for Dumbledore, Snape did the same, doing all he was ordered to do to bring Voldemort down and the consequence would be Dumbledore's side would win.

I feel both had their moments when they defied their leaders, but overall, they did as ordered, imo. Both tend to whine and cry or beg in the presence of their leaders and give reminders of their loyalty and worth. Also, both died as a result of their stated loyalties - and both were prey to their leaders behind the back plotting that resulted in their deaths (the Elder Wand and the treacherous Silver Hand).

An interesting question is when they were living together, did they see the similarities in one another? It is doubtful, imo, because both felt arrogantly self-righteous in the face of the other, seeing one another as betrayers of the worst sort, imo. That is, Peter of course believed Snape was betraying Dumbledore (but he was actually betraying Voldemort) and Snape knew Peter had betrayed the Potters. But their response to powerful leadership was the same in my opinion - although naturally I distinguish 'what' they were doing as well which was quite different. But I do note that they crossed paths from the depths of evil to rejecting it and visa versa, imo. And to me, Peter never quite made it to the depths of evil possible, and Snape never made it to the heights of good possible, which was another similarity, imo. And as an aside...that was a bit of storyline that was never played out - Peter living with Snape seemed to have nothing at all to do with the storyline - it seems as if it was placed in the story, to highlight the similarity of these two characters, imo.

But storyline wise, they both betrayed their "friends" - (the Potters, Voldy & the DEs) and jumped sides to play spy. They both showed regret for their behavior, and in both cases, in my judgment, it was selfish regret that did not encompass full remorse. As a result, both remained on the side they jumped to and had a go at immersing themselves into the new theology, imo. Peter was forced to face up to some of those he betrayed and nearly died for it - Snape managed to convince those he betrayed that he wasn't betraying them and continued to do so, which was distinct, imo, although he too nearly died for it. But Peter's indication that there was still a shred of good in him came through that 'facing up' experience, whereas Snape's shred of not good was shown in his life on the good side, imo. Both had questionable motivations for their initial side jumps, imo, and in both cases, the motivations seemed a bit far fetched to me. They both ended up loners, disliked by those on their side, but unable to be touched due to the protection of their leaders. Neither was jovial with others and both availed their leaders of a personal benefit, imo (new human body and extended life through hand healing).

They had dissimilar characteristics too - Peter wasn't much of a grudge holder, imo, where Snape was; Peter behaved more cowardly outwardly, but bravely inwardly - whereas I felt Snape was the opposite, outwardly brave, but inwardly cowardly in his behavior. But there was more in common, imo. Neither seemed to care much about their persons (grooming and such), but seemed to see power, and the abuse thereof, of greater importance. Both had a great opinion of themselves which was not shared by others, imo, but I felt like both rather believed that at least some others did see them in that light. Both had ties to Harry's parents, and that past lay behind their both treating Harry horribly (although for varied reasons) until the "second" before both men's deaths, when they each made a slightly conciliatory gesture - and in both cases, imo, it was based on a parent of Harry's (Snape = Lily and perhaps James to some degree; Peter = James and perhaps Lily to some degree) rather than on Harry himself. And they were both ultimately killed through a 'device' of the same man, Voldemort (Snake/Silver Hand), rather than by Voldemort directly - and he knew in the end that they were both treacherous to him.

I think Snape did it out of some feeling of friendship for Lucius. That is because he had the best excuse in the world not to do it: it defied Voldemort's Orders. Voldemort set up Draco to take the fall and Snape was working with Narcissa and Bella to undercut his desire in that regard. Snape was showing disloyalty to Voldemort in making the vow, not loyalty. Snape could have gone to Voldy and told him what Narcissa and Bella had tried to do and got them fried - meaning got Voldy's wrath up against them. Hold on to your hats - I agree with you! :D

Both tend to whine and cry or beg in the presence of their leaders and give reminders of their loyalty and worth. I am sorry but I don't think we ever hear Snape whine. He is prepared to stand up to Dumbledore and express an opinion that is different to his - such as with Lupin. I don't recal Snape reminding Dumbledore of his loyalty or worth - he does point out that he spends a lot of time with Voldemort on Dumbledore's orders but that's about it. He does get very frustrated with Dumbledore and expresses that frustration in a way that Wormtail would never dare do with Voldemort.

Peter wasn't much of a grudge holder, imo, where Snape was; Peter behaved more cowardly outwardly, but bravely inwardly - whereas I felt Snape was the opposite, outwardly brave, but inwardly cowardly in his behaviorI do not see any evidence at all that Peter was inwardly brave - he was a complete and utter coward begging for his life in the shack with no dignity whatsoever. He didn't hold grudges because he was more concerned about nopt being hurt and staying alive! And I certainly do not see any evidence that Snape was "inwardly cowardly" - None whatsoever. The canon is that he was one of the bravest men Harry Potter knew.

To me, not forgiving school yard pranks and fights between kids doesn't matter at all - if they want to all go on holding grudges for childish silly acts, thats just their problem. :lol:.

Sometimes school enmities can be pretty tough. The werewolf incident for example would not come under silly childish acts for me. Nor would the SWM. And if these were the examples of the war between Snape and others, where Snape distinctly came off worse, I don't think he would forget it in a hurry.

Even when he became an adult I don't think he would be able to look at these types of incidents and laugh.

Remus and Sirius were not able to, about the werewolf incident or the SWM, long after it happened. (To Harry, both times). They could not tell Harry to take those incidents as a joke. And they did not suffer both times IMO.

Harry had to forgive Snape's treatment of him as a professor, imo.

Which I think would have come once Harry understood the memories he saw IMO.

But all the Potters would have to forgive Snape for a part in the deaths of the parents and leaving Harry an orphan, despite the fact that he loathed the male potters and imo, coveted the wife/mother.

Well, I firmly believe that Snape had a hand in the Potters deaths only because of Dumbledore, who allowed him to go away, knowing that he had been caught eavesdropping.

So, if Snape ran to his master and handed over the prophecy, it was because Dumbledore allowed him to do so IMO.

In which case, I think Harry would have to forgive both Snape for handing over the prophecy as a DE that he was at that time, and Dumbledore for being so careless as the leader of the Light.

Hating James Potter, I find nothing wrong with. Snape hated James for many things. That IMO had nothing to do with his remorse for being a DE and I don't think he needs to be forgiven by anyone for that.

I think Snape has a right to feel and if he feels loathing, loving, dislike or caring for anyone, he is entitled to do so and without apologising to anyone for that.

I don't know if Snape coveted Lily. I think he loved her. I also think he was (EDIT ::)) not wrong to do so. He need not have for that love was never going to be fulfilled, but what the heck, if he wanted to love someone why should he not? :)

He did not act upon it; he did not break their marriage or kill James Potter to take Lily away with him. He simply loved. I can see no wrong in that.

As to these things, Snape had nothing to forgive, imo, but only to be forgiven. But I feel that has nothing to do with Snape; Harry forgave, but we don't know if his parents did or not. We have a clue in that James would give Peter quarter, according to the canon - but we don't have any canon about Lily that I recall.

I just don't understand why his parents should forgive. If it was for the prophecy, then I think the blame is with Dumbledore and Snape; more with Dumbledore I would say actually.

If it was for their interactions over the years, I would say Snape would receive a lot more apologies than offer them. :)

They have two similar character traits, another point - which sent them both searching for a means of power (for protection or greatness), imo. When dealing with Voldemort, Peter behaved like a lap dog, doing all he was ordered to help ensure his lord and master would be the supreme ruler - in consequence, Voldemort would win. When working for Dumbledore, Snape did the same, doing all he was ordered to do to bring Voldemort down and the consequence would be Dumbledore's side would win.

I think there is a very great difference. Snape did all that he had to, because he trusted Dumbledore. Peter on the other hand did everything because of fear.

Snape was loyal to the side he chose. Peter was loyal to himself only. Snape was driven by all the right reasons. Peter was driven by the selfish desire to stay safe.

In short, I don't think there is anything in common between them. :D

Peter living with Snape seemed to have nothing at all to do with the storyline - it seems as if it was placed in the story, to highlight the similarity of these two characters, imo.


Perhaps not surprisingly, I take an opposite view. It shows how different Snape and Peter were. Obviously, Peter is still working for the Dark Lord, and tries to eavesdrop on the others. Snape actually does something subversive in helping Narcissa - as he tells her, they weren't even supposed to talk about Draco's task and certainly not question it. Bellatrix confirms that, but she goes along with it, possibly out of affection for her sister. But Bellatrix doesn't understand where either Snape or Narcissa are coming from.

I would respectfully disagree. I think Snape did it out of some feeling of friendship for Lucius. That is because he had the best excuse in the world not to do it: it defied Voldemort's Orders. Voldemort set up Draco to take the fall and Snape was working with Narcissa and Bella to undercut his desire in that regard. Snape was showing disloyalty to Voldemort in making the vow, not loyalty. Snape could have gone to Voldy and told him what Narcissa and Bella had tried to do and got them fried - meaning got Voldy's wrath up against them.
I agree that Snape did agree to the vow partially because of his appreciation of the Malfoys. However, I disagree with your other points. By making the Vow, Snape was undercutting Voldemort's authority on the matter. However, Snape already knew Voldemort intended for Snape to kill Dumbledore when (for Voldemort did not seem to question "if") Draco failed. By making the Vow, Snape was giving Bellatrix an obvious exhibition of his loyalty to Voldemort.

I agree that Bellatrix nor Narcissa told Voldemort about Snape making the Vow. However, I think Bellatrix would have if Snape refused to make the Vow. Certainly, Voldemort would be angry at all three of them, but I believe he would then wonder if Snape really was "slithering out of action" again.

Again, I will emphasize that, in my opinion, Snape did not agree to the Vow for Voldemort, but for Bellatrix and the other Death Eaters. Bellatrix and many of the Death Eaters clearly thought Snape was not loyal to Voldemort, but Snape, by vowing to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed, ultimately proved that he was Voldemort's man (hence Bella's shocked expression).
I disagree. That would also mean that what Voldemort was doing with Draco was of next to no importance to him. If that was the case, it rips apart the whole basis for Draco's storyline. Quite commonly storylines are ripped apart to try to make sense of Snape's words and actions, imo, but I don't go for that. I feel the reasoning to me, has to make sense in terms of the entire storyline, not just Snape's subplot.
Canon supports the claim that Draco's task was ultimately unimportant to Voldemort. Narcissa, Snape, and Dumbledore all say Voldemort gave Draco the task to kill Dumbledore in revenge for Lucius' mistake. Dumbledore even thinks Voldemort expected Draco to die in the attempt. As I see it, Voldemort did not think Draco could succeed, so Draco was basically a lead up to Snape killing Dumbledore. He still needed Snape at Hogwarts throughout HBP as a spy, though, which is probably why he did not just have Snape kill Dumbledore early on.

posted by WWB
I feel both had their moments when they defied their leaders, but overall, they did as ordered, imo. Both tend to whine and cry or beg in the presence of their leaders and give reminders of their loyalty and worth. Also, both died as a result of their stated loyalties - and both were prey to their leaders behind the back plotting that resulted in their deaths (the Elder Wand and the treacherous Silver Hand).

Like CathyWeasley, I don't remember Snape whining at all. Where does he in canon?

Wormtail is reviled by his master, whereas Snape has Dumbledore's respect.

Voldemort's, too. ;) Evidence enough, in my view, that he also acted differently from Peter in that quarter, if "Dark Lord Ascending" and "The Elder Wand" are somehow not adequately convincing in this regard.

Sometimes school enmities can be pretty tough. The werewolf incident for example would not come under silly childish acts for me. Nor would the SWM. And if these were the examples of the war between Snape and others, where Snape distinctly came off worse, I don't think he would forget it in a hurry.

Even when he became an adult I don't think he would be able to look at these types of incidents and laugh.

Remus and Sirius were not able to, about the werewolf incident or the SWM, long after it happened. (To Harry, both times). They could not tell Harry to take those incidents as a joke. And they did not suffer both times IMO.

Well it is Snape's thread, but anyone who dwells on schoolyard happenings is behaving in an immature and childish manner to me. That includes everyone. They have every right to do so, but I have every right to find it nonsense.

I think Snape has a right to feel and if he feels loathing, loving, dislike or caring for anyone, he is entitled to do so and without apologising to anyone for that. I don't know if Snape coveted Lily. I think he loved her. I also think he was (EDIT ::)) not wrong to do so. He need not have for that love was never going to be fulfilled, but what the heck, if he wanted to love someone why should he not? :)

I am unsure why you are speaking from Snape's POV here. The point was that others may or may not forgive him for the reasons I provided, not whether he felt he should be forgiven. And these two above factors were just side aspects - the actual wrong was delivering the prophecy that got two people killed and left another an orphan, imo.

I just don't understand why his parents should forgive. If it was for the prophecy, then I think the blame is with Dumbledore and Snape; more with Dumbledore I would say actually.

In other words, Snape had no mind of his own?

If it was for their interactions over the years, I would say Snape would receive a lot more apologies than offer them. :)

For the manner in which Snape treat Harry? Why would anyone apologize to Snape for that? Or do you mean the schoolyard stuff? I have already indicated how I feel about that - I agree - no one need apologize for that stuff, it is nonsense to me.

But what I was referring to was only the delivery of the prophecy and the consequences of that - but you raise a good point, the treatment of Harry would be another huge factor. The loathing and coveting (imo) were side factors that may or may not weigh in - it depends on the person and I don't know enough about them to make that judgment.

I think there is a very great difference. Snape did all that he had to, because he trusted Dumbledore. Peter on the other hand did everything because of fear.

Snape was loyal to the side he chose. Peter was loyal to himself only. Snape was driven by all the right reasons. Peter was driven by the selfish desire to stay safe.

In short, I don't think there is anything in common between them. :D

I added to the post - you can read it if you like. :) But I wasn't speaking mainly in terms of character, more in terms of storyline.

In case you're confused Zara quoted a part of my post that I edited out.

Voldemort's, too. ;) Evidence enough, in my view, that he also acted differently from Peter in that quarter, if "Dark Lord Ascending" and "The Elder Wand" are somehow not adequately convincing in this regard.

I would disagree. While I feel that Voldemort felt Snape was more valuable to him, I don't think he had respect for any of his followers. He certainly didn't have enough to spare Snape's life, believing him absolutely faithful. On the other hand, Dumbledore respected everyone who worked for him, imo, even those like Mundungus, who may not merit it - and indeed, he even had respect for Death Eaters to some degree - and Voldemort himself.

In case you're confused Zara quoted a part of my post that I edited out.

Nah, I read it before you did. :)

and indeed, he even had respect for Death Eaters to some degree - and Voldemort himself.

"You disgust me" - Albus Dumbledore (to Severus Snape), DH. "The Prince's Tale"

Like CathyWeasley, I don't remember Snape whining at all. Where does he in canon?

Well in his initial meeting on the hill; his talk with Dumbledore about his lack of trust; his "you used me" statements, his recriminations regarding the work he was made to do (having to be near Voldy so much and then Dumbledore penalizing him for it), his attempts to get Lupin ousted, his going on about Harry being mediocre and otherwise like James, his agreement to work for him scene, several scenes where he wanted Harry to get in more trouble than he did. His chat before the minister directed at Dumbledore as well (POA) - just to name a few. Peter we saw much less of, but he whined in the graveyard in the same manner, imo. And there also, he was telling Voldemort all he'd done for him - just like Snape in his you used me speech. Being in the good graces (trust wise) of their leaders seemed important to both - #1 man where others were in an inferior position. Voldemort played that - but not with Peter - he gave it to Snape, possibly in conjunction with Bella. But Dumbledore didn't play that at all, imo.

Well it is Snape's thread, but anyone who dwells on schoolyard happenings is behaving in an immature and childish manner to me. That includes everyone. They have every right to do so, but I have every right to find it nonsense.
I would disagree that this is nonsense. I am still haunted by schoolyard happenings and I am 43 - you may choose to call that nonsense however given the seriousness of the incident (a boy lost the sight in an eye) I certainly do not call it nonsense. I think the same would apply to Severus - the "schoolyard happenings" were not just name calling but an incident that threatened his life. If this was just normal schoolyard stuff then I may agree with you - but they are not. I would also add that there are a lot of people who are haunted by memories of "schoolyard happenings" such a bullying and who never fully recover from them. I do not regard them as behaving in a childish and immature way - and I'm sure the psychologists who counsel them don't either. For many years bullying was considered pat and parcel of school life - something that everyone had to go through - but of course that was never true. It was only a minority - usually an already vulnerable minority who were bullied. Now all schools (in the UK)are expected to have an anti-bullying strategy and parents are advised to give any school that claims not to have a bullying problem a wide berth because all schools have problems with bullying at some point and they need to have a policy to deal with it. Bullying ruins childrens lives and I for one cannot dismiss it as "schoolyard nonsense". You are entitled to your opinion Wick but this is an issue that goes well beyond the realms of character analysis of Severus Snape

"You disgust me" - Albus Dumbledore (to Severus Snape), DH. "The Prince's Tale"

Yeah, but that was for a specific action of Snape's, not because he was a Death Eater. And furthermore, I don't mean by respect that he thought they were a great group of guys and gals. I mean only that he respected the fact that evildoers are people too - like his defense of Kreacher and his speaking of mitigating factors for Voldemort and his willingness to listen to Snape at all rather than kill him.

Well in his initial meeting on the hill; his talk with Dumbledore about his lack of trust; his "you used me" statements, his recriminations regarding the work he was made to do (having to be near Voldy so much and then Dumbledore penalizing him for it), his attempts to get Lupin ousted, his going on about Harry being mediocre and otherwise like James, his agreement to work for him scene, several scenes where he wanted Harry to get in more trouble than he did.I would not class any of this as whining (and after two weeks with all the kids at home I know a bit about whining!) He makes complaints to Dumbledore and expresses a point of view different to others. Disagreeing with someone doesn't automatically mean you are whining and the word is never used to describe the way in which Severus speaks.

I would disagree that this is nonsense. I am still haunted by schoolyard happenings and I am 43 - you may choose to call that nonsense however given the seriousness of the incident (a boy lost the sight in an eye) I certainly do not call it nonsense. I think the same would apply to Severus - the "schoolyard happenings" were not just name calling but an incident that threatened his life. If this was just normal schoolyard stuff then I may agree with you - but they are not. I would also add that there are a lot of people who are haunted by memories of "schoolyard happenings" such a bullying and who never fully recover from them. I do not regard them as behaving in a childish and immature way - and I'm sure the psychologists who counsel them don't either. For many years bullying was considered pat and parcel of school life - something that everyone had to go through - but of course that was never true. It was only a minority - usually an already vulnerable minority who were bullied. Now all schools (in the UK)are expected to have an anti-bullying strategy and parents are advised to give any school that claims not to have a bullying problem a wide berth because all schools have problems with bullying at some point and they need to have a policy to deal with it. Bullying ruins childrens lives and I for one cannot dismiss it as "schoolyard nonsense". You are entitled to your opinion Wick but this is an issue that goes well beyond the realms of character analysis of Severus Snape

Well I don't fundamentally disagree with you regarding real life. But in this particular fictional account, I would have to disagree. Suffice it to say that I don't even look at the scenario in the same way from the gate - so naturally I could not reach the same conclusions. To me, by the end of his life, I think Snape was able to look back on somethings a little distinctly - perhaps not, but I would hope so. I think there is evidence of this in the canon.

Just on the two points you raised - I think Snape coming clean about the werewolf incident with respect to his role in it was an admission of his own responsibility in the matter. I also think his attempt at saving an enemy (to his mind) in Lupin, showed that he came to grips with the idea that people do not always save their enemies for selfish reasons. So I feel that Snape himself would look back and admit the mutual behavior of all involved was bullying in nature and understand he was equally responsible - thus not be prey to all of what you were speaking about above (no one came out with a physical injury so that is distinct as well). That of course didn't lessen his loathing (or Sirius') but to me, they were both behaving in an immature manner to hold on to those feelings under the circumstances. I think the canon supports my viewpoint in Lupin's ultimate behavior and Harry's as well.

So I think we just look at the actual canon distinctly (what happened) and that is why we might reach varying conclusions. :)

Well in his initial meeting on the hill; his talk with Dumbledore about his lack of trust; his "you used me" statements, his recriminations regarding the work he was made to do (having to be near Voldy so much and then Dumbledore penalizing him for it), his attempts to get Lupin ousted, his going on about Harry being mediocre and otherwise like James, his agreement to work for him scene, several scenes where he wanted Harry to get in more trouble than he did. His chat before the minister directed at Dumbledore as well (POA) - just to name a few.

Whining and expressing disagreement are not at all the same thing.

1 a: to utter a high-pitched plaintive or distressed cry b: to make a sound similar to such a cry <the wind whined in the chimney>
2: to complain with or as if with a whine <always whining about the weather>
3: to move or proceed with the sound of a whine <the bullet whined…across the ice — Berton Roueché>
transitive verb

Snape is never described to have been speaking in this way.

On the other hand...

"You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have killed me, Sirius!"

Whining and expressing disagreement are not at all the same thing.



Snape is never described to have been speaking in this way.

On the other hand...

"You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have killed me, Sirius!"

Well whatever you wish to call it. Peter may not have been described in canon as "whining" with Voldemort either. But that complaining and just the whole way they spoke to their leaders was similar to me.

Lets keep real life bullying incidents out of this thread. I don't want to see any comparisons from the book to real life or any criticism on how people have handled bullying. This can be a sensitive subject for some.

Fictional accounts from the book are perfectly fine for this thread.

Yeah, but that was for a specific action of Snape's, not because he was a Death Eater. And furthermore, I don't mean by respect that he thought they were a great group of guys and gals. I mean only that he respected the fact that evildoers are people too - like his defense of Kreacher and his speaking of mitigating factors for Voldemort and his willingness to listen to Snape at all rather than kill him.

Whereas I mean by respect, is the recognition that a person has positive qualities one values. Voldemort, for example, expresses the opinion that Snape is clever, as well as a good and faithful servant, all in a manner which suggests he would consider these positive qualities. He expresses contempt for Peter for serving him out of fear.

Albus respects all "sentient life forms" if you will, in your sense, and Voldemort, none, so your sense of "respect" is not a very meaningful one to use in this discussion. Albus does respect Snape in the way I mean - we have seen him express the opinon he is fortunate to have Snape, that he could trust no one else with the difficult tasks he entrusts to Snape, and his opinoin that Snape is a brave man. All of which, again, would seem to be qualities ALbus values and recognizes in Snape. Albus does not accordingly recognize any qualities he admires in, say, the Carrows. Or Peter.

Peter living with Snape seemed to have nothing at all to do with the storyline - it seems as if it was placed in the story, to highlight the similarity of these two characters, imo.

I agree with what SIP says in response to this, but I also want to point out that it also gave the reader a sense of just how deep and dangerous Snape's job was. Wormtail was obviously placed there to spy on Snape, so even in his own home, Snape had to stay in the character of a loyal DE.

Suffice it to say that I don't even look at the scenario in the same way from the gate - so naturally I could not reach the same conclusions.
Nobody was referring to an individual scenario. TGW mentioned two incidents - the werewolf incident and SWM - this is what she said:
Sometimes school enmities can be pretty tough. The werewolf incident for example would not come under silly childish acts for me. Nor would the SWM. And if these were the examples of the war between Snape and others, where Snape distinctly came off worse, I don't think he would forget it in a hurry.

Even when he became an adult I don't think he would be able to look at these types of incidents and laugh.

Remus and Sirius were not able to, about the werewolf incident or the SWM, long after it happened. (To Harry, both times). They could not tell Harry to take those incidents as a joke. And they did not suffer both times IMO.
To which you responded:

Well it is Snape's thread, but anyone who dwells on schoolyard happenings is behaving in an immature and childish manner to me. That includes everyone. They have every right to do so, but I have every right to find it nonsense.

So I don't know which scenario you are referring to in the first quote and frankly I don't really care. Just because this is a school and they are children does not mean that this is nonsense. What you have written implies that anybody who is contributing to this thread is behaving in a childish and immature manner if they dwell on schoolyard happenings. This may not be what you meant but it is what you have written and quite clearly draws the argument form the literary world of HP to the real world.

ETA: Okay I've only just seen the Mod notice! I wasn't ignoring it!

Well whatever you wish to call it. Peter may not have been described in canon as "whining" with Voldemort either. But that complaining and just the whole way they spoke to their leaders was similar to me.

Then I wish you would say so. :) I cannot disagree that both Wormtail and Snape disagreed with/complained to Voldemort and Albus, this is a fact. It is also not a very meaningful similarity. Harry disagreed with Dumbledore too, but I would not have said he was whining about Snape. :lol: Minerva disagreed with Headmistress Umbridge. Any number of people disagreed with others in power.

To me, there is nothing in common between how Peter and Snape express their disagreements. Peter whines, whimpers, squeaks, cries, and grovels (literally). Snape gets angry, or maintains a cold demeanor. Peter ceases to complain when he is too afraid to pursue the matter further (as, for example, in the opening scenes of GoF). Snape will drop something if asked to (to resume it if he has not been persuaded and fresh arguments present themselves), and is also open to persuasion. To me it is a world of difference.

Well whatever you wish to call it. Peter may not have been described in canon as "whining" with Voldemort either. But that complaining and just the whole way they spoke to their leaders was similar to me.
Well IMO it is not about what we wish to call it but about how it was written in the books.

I agree with what SIP says in response to this, but I also want to point out that it also gave the reader a sense of just how deep and dangerous Snape's job was. Wormtail was obviously placed there to spy on Snape, so even in his own home, Snape had to stay in the character of a loyal DE.

I meant in terms of the storyline. We can of course infer all types of reasons and rationales for Snape and Peter living together at that point. But it didn't really play into the storyline at all, imo. It didn't seem to even play into the scene at all - I mean, whatever he said in front of Bella could be said in front of Peter. So it just seemed to be pointless to the story itself.

Perhaps JKR wished to show that Voldemort didn't trust Snape in order to help justify his killing Dumbledore when we got to DH. But that wasn't stated either - and I didn't reach that conclusion while reading HBP. It could have well have been the other way around - Voldemort wanted Peter watched. So I think it was a very odd thing to throw into the storyline, without explanation.

It could have well have been the other way around - Voldemort wanted Peter watched. So I think it was a very odd thing to throw into the storyline, without explanation.

The text is not as silent on this as you suggest. We are told that Peter is spying on Snape. We never hear about Snape spying on Peter.

I am unsure why you are speaking from Snape's POV here. The point was that others may or may not forgive him for the reasons I provided, not whether he felt he should be forgiven. And these two above factors were just side aspects - the actual wrong was delivering the prophecy that got two people killed and left another an orphan, imo.

Which is what I said. Others have nothing to forgive him for, except the prophecy, for which Dumbledore is more to blame IMO. Snape at that time was a DE and he was caught by Aberforth. It was Dumbledore'as negligence that got the prophecy to Voldemort.

Sure Snape handed it over and he is responsible for that. He also accepted responsibility and worked a lifetime to erase his mistakes as a DE. But he was a DE at that time and more importantly he was allowed to leave the Hog's Head.

So, in this light, who should forgive whom for the prophecy? I don't know, I feel it's more of Dumbledore and less of Snape.

In other words, Snape had no mind of his own?

Yes he did have a mind of his own and that was why when he was allowed to get away he went to Voldemort with it.

Dumbledore, though was not a DE. He had no loyalty towards Voldemort. He went on to keep the prophecy as most secret for the next 20 years.

Why did he allow Snape to walk away? And who should be blamed for that?

For the manner in which Snape treat Harry?

For which Snape apologised, through the memories; giving them to Harry I mean, and not by telling him he was sorry. I found this more powerful than had Snape said "I'm sorry." Instead Snape showed him and that I found very moving and far more of an apology than words.

Snape never speaks throughout the books about certain things. I think explaining his actions and justyfing them are 2 of them. And with Harry too, Snape does not explain or justify. He shows.

Why would anyone apologize to Snape for that? Or do you mean the schoolyard stuff? I have already indicated how I feel about that - I agree - no one need apologize for that stuff, it is nonsense to me.

I meant if both of them should apologise for their school wars, then Snape would receive far more than he would offer an apology and seeing the type of interaction they had, I would say it would be very difficult for Snape to forgive.

I added to the post - you can read it if you like. :) But I wasn't speaking mainly in terms of character, more in terms of storyline.

I read it after I posted. :)

Well in his initial meeting on the hill; his talk with Dumbledore about his lack of trust; his "you used me" statements, his recriminations regarding the work he was made to do (having to be near Voldy so much and then Dumbledore penalizing him for it), his attempts to get Lupin ousted, his going on about Harry being mediocre and otherwise like James, his agreement to work for him scene, several scenes where he wanted Harry to get in more trouble than he did. His chat before the minister directed at Dumbledore as well (POA) - just to name a few. Peter we saw much less of, but he whined in the graveyard in the same manner, imo. And there also, he was telling Voldemort all he'd done for him - just like Snape in his you used me speech. Being in the good graces (trust wise) of their leaders seemed important to both - #1 man where others were in an inferior position. Voldemort played that - but not with Peter - he gave it to Snape, possibly in conjunction with Bella. But Dumbledore didn't play that at all, imo.

I don't think these were whining statements. I think they were instances where Snape did not agree with Dumbeldore, except the meeting on the hill, where Snape was in so much despair that he could not even talk, let alone whine IMO.

Snape was in the good graces of both Voldemort and he was trusted by Dumbeldore, but Peter was not in Voldemort's good graces and he was not trusted by Voldemort. That silver hand was a punishment, not a gift.

I would disagree that this is nonsense. I am still haunted by schoolyard happenings and I am 43 - you may choose to call that nonsense however given the seriousness of the incident (a boy lost the sight in an eye) I certainly do not call it nonsense. I think the same would apply to Severus - the "schoolyard happenings" were not just name calling but an incident that threatened his life. If this was just normal schoolyard stuff then I may agree with you - but they are not. I would also add that there are a lot of people who are haunted by memories of "schoolyard happenings" such a bullying and who never fully recover from them. I do not regard them as behaving in a childish and immature way - and I'm sure the psychologists who counsel them don't either. For many years bullying was considered pat and parcel of school life - something that everyone had to go through - but of course that was never true. It was only a minority - usually an already vulnerable minority who were bullied. Now all schools (in the UK)are expected to have an anti-bullying strategy and parents are advised to give any school that claims not to have a bullying problem a wide berth because all schools have problems with bullying at some point and they need to have a policy to deal with it. Bullying ruins childrens lives and I for one cannot dismiss it as "schoolyard nonsense". You are entitled to your opinion Wick but this is an issue that goes well beyond the realms of character analysis of Severus Snape

Excellent post! :tu:

I meant in terms of the storyline. We can of course infer all types of reasons and rationales for Snape and Peter living together at that point. But it didn't really play into the storyline at all, imo. It didn't seem to even play into the scene at all - I mean, whatever he said in front of Bella could be said in front of Peter. So it just seemed to be pointless to the story itself.

If we were speaking only of the actions within the scene itself and how they affect the main plot, then claiming that JKR was trying to make Snape and Peter seem similar is also irrelevant to the action because any comparisons/contrasts made are directed toward the reader, and not part of the main action. That may have been why I was unclear on what part of the story you were talking about. :hmm:

However, Peter's presence does have an effect on the action: it puts extra pressure on the characters during that scene-- ensuring that Snape would come to the conclusion that not only was the Vow the nice thing to do, but the smart thing to do. Without Peter, there was a small chance Snape could squirm his way out of the third part of the vow. If it had remained only Snape's word against unpopular Bella's he may have been able to stay on Voldemort's good side. But after Peter had (supposedly) heard Bella's complaints about Snape slithering out of action, taking the Vow would become all the more important because Peter was definitely going to, uh, rat him out to Voldemort if he didn't take the Vow, being sure to add in all the juicy details of Bella gloatingly declaring that she was right about Snape never taking action. What a way to get Voldie suspicious! :scared:

If we were speaking only of the actions within the scene itself and how they affect the main plot, then claiming that JKR was trying to make Snape and Peter seem similar is also irrelevant to the action because any comparisons/contrasts made are directed toward the reader, and not part of the main action. That may have been why I was unclear on what part of the story you were talking about. :hmm:

However, Peter's presence does have an effect on the action: it puts extra pressure on the characters during that scene-- ensuring that Snape would come to the conclusion that not only was the Vow the nice thing to do, but the smart thing to do. Without Peter, there was a small chance Snape could squirm his way out of the third part of the vow. If it had remained only Snape's word against unpopular Bella's he may have been able to stay on Voldemort's good side. But after Peter had (supposedly) heard Bella's complaints about Snape slithering out of action, taking the Vow would become all the more important because Peter was definitely going to, uh, rat him out to Voldemort if he didn't take the Vow, being sure to add in all the juicy details of Bella gloatingly declaring that she was right about Snape never taking action. What a way to get Voldie suspicious! :scared:

And meanwhile ratting out herself and her sister? How would that work out for Bella?

The text is not as silent on this as you suggest. We are told that Peter is spying on Snape. We never hear about Snape spying on Peter.

Where does it say that?

Snape warns Narcissa and Bella of the possiblity in "Spinner's End".

I don't see that, all I see is Snape telling Peter that Voldemort sent him along to assist Snape - you meant the Spinner's End Chapter, right?

The reason I thought it could be the other way around was that I couldn't think of a reason why Voldemort would not trust Snape. But with Peter - other than him being untrustworthy in general, having jumped sides in the first place - Sirius had just died and Voldemort understands how these types of things can cause people to do strange things (to his mind).

Snape held up a hand to stop her, then pointed his wand again at the concealed staircase door. There was a loud bang and a squeal, followed by the sound of Wormtail scurrying back up the stairs..

"My apologies," said Snape. "He has lately taken to listening at doors, I dont know what he means by it...."

I have to admit that I have always interpreted Snape's comment about Peter listening at doors as meaning that Severus knew he was being spied on.

Why would Voldemort send someone to spy on his 'right hand man'? Because Voldemort does not trust anyone except himself, given that he is hardly going to trust Severus. :)

I have to admit that I have always interpreted Snape's comment about Peter listening at doors as meaning that Severus knew he was being spied on.

Why would Voldemort send someone to spy on his 'right hand man'? Because Voldemort does not trust anyone except himself, given that he is hardly going to trust Severus. :)

I agree: Voldemort doesn't trust anyone but himself. Therefore I believe it is possible that this pairing of Snape and Wormtail was a two-way security measure: Wormtail fears Voldemort, so he is reliable to report anything funny about Snape, and Snape, though probably more trustworthy in Voldy's eyes can keep an eye on Wormtail who is known to be drawn to the stronger side.

About who forgives or needs to forgive who: I wholeheartedly agree with Cathy that bullying is a very serious issue, and when a gang is picking on you repeatedly and embarrasing you publicly gives you a feeling of insecurity, minority, embarrasment and worthlessness even if you consider yourself smarter or in any way better than the bullies. I believe it to be the case here, for Snape probably considered himself maybe wiser or more mature than the Potter-group but that does not mean he wasn't hurt in any way by their behaviour. It is possible to claim his behaviour childish in holding the grudge, but then Sirius is also childish in this aspect, and Lupin seems to be the only one acting 'adult' on the issue...
In a situation like this one of those involved have to be the first to reach out in some way, and seems to me that neither wished to do so. They were both vindictive in nature and too proud, not to mention that they didn't really trust each-other. I might even see a "Percy-trait" here in Snape: that he should have accepted finally that Sirius was not to be blamed for the death of the Potters, and he's been loathing the wrong person, almost given him to the dementors, all in all, as Dumbledore said: people sometimes find it harder to forgive others being right than being wrong.

I'd also like to reflect on the issue of Dumbledore being more to blame for the prophecy reaching Voldemort: I understand that he was the one who 'let Snape go', but I have questions: was it common knowledge back then that Snape was a DE? If Dumbledore knew for a fact that he was what could he have done to prevent Snape hastening to his master? Lock him up? Kill him? How to silence him?

Snape held up a hand to stop her, then pointed his wand again at the concealed staircase door. There was a loud bang and a squeal, followed by the sound of Wormtail scurrying back up the stairs..

"My apologies," said Snape. "He has lately taken to listening at doors, I dont know what he means by it...."

Oh - I read that too. But my impression was that Voldemort told Snape that Peter was there because he wished Snape to keep and eye on him - and told Peter the same, to stay in order to keep an eye on Snape. But meanwhile told them both that they were to tell the other than Peter was there to assist Snape - in what, I do not know. :lol:.

But what Voldemort's true purpose was, it doesn't say other than the assist business - which makes no sense in terms of the storyline, imo. If Peter was there to spy, I don't know why - what reason had Voldemort to distrust Snape? I can kinda see a reason for Peter to be watched.

But even with all of that - what importance did any of this play in the storyline? Was it to put some credence in the idea that Voldemort had a special distrust for Snape? Meaning beyond what he always had for all his minions? It didn't help because after Snape killed Dumbledore, Dumbledore's portrait was still speaking as if Voldemort might distrust Snape. But he'd always distrust him in general, but not specifically, imo.

I agree: Voldemort doesn't trust anyone but himself. Therefore I believe it is possible that this pairing of Snape and Wormtail was a two-way security measure: Wormtail fears Voldemort, so he is reliable to report anything funny about Snape, and Snape, though probably more trustworthy in Voldy's eyes can keep an eye on Wormtail who is known to be drawn to the stronger side.

But we have to make all this up because it is not stated in canon, imo. And to me, it was entirely pointless in terms of the storyline.

I'd also like to reflect on the issue of Dumbledore being more to blame for the prophecy reaching Voldemort: I understand that he was the one who 'let Snape go', but I have questions: was it common knowledge back then that Snape was a DE? If Dumbledore knew for a fact that he was what could he have done to prevent Snape hastening to his master? Lock him up? Kill him? How to silence him?

The idea was that Dumbledore should have confunded him. The idea is that Dumbledore had the opportunity and the knowledge to do so - but I don't see any of that verified by the canon we have, so I don't feel this idea is valid.

Oh - I read that too. But my impression was that Voldemort told Snape that Peter was there because he wished Snape to keep and eye on him - and told Peter the same, to stay in order to keep an eye on Snape.

You agree Peter had orders to spy on Snape. You agree he was spying on Snape. Since Snape was, from a DE point of view, up to no good, this certainly did increase the pressure on Snape, and is related to the storyline.
I mean, in a sentence, Snape is the character who loved but inadvertently endangered Harry's mother, and out of remorse placed himself at grave personal risk as a spy and protector of Harry until it killed him. How is living with a DE who is spying on him, not part of that story?

You agree Peter had orders to spy on Snape. You agree he was spying on Snape. Since Snape was, from a DE point of view, up to no good, this certainly did increase the pressure on Snape, and is related to the storyline.
I mean, in a sentence, Snape is the character who loved but inadvertently endangered Harry's mother, and out of remorse placed himself at grave personal risk as a spy and protector of Harry until it killed him. How is living with a DE who is spying on him, not part of that story?

How is living with a DE who is spying on him a part of that story? Voldemort didn't know that story. The thing is, Snape planned to help to kill some baby, and at that point it was out of his hands, imo. So I feel "inadvertent" is not correct here because when he handed it over, he knew that the world and everyone in it could be targeted by that delivery, imo. However, it still makes little sense to the storyline that Peter was living with him. That fact was not used for any subsequent portion of the storyline, imo. Was Peter still living there until the day he died? Was he there rifling through Snape's things when Snape went out or back to Hogwarts to teach?

I mean, in a sentence, Snape is the character who loved but inadvertently endangered Harry's mother, and out of remorse placed himself at grave personal risk as a spy and protector of Harry until it killed him. How is living with a DE who is spying on him, not part of that story?

Does the highlight mean that you feel Peter somehow was involved in Snape's death?

The idea was that Dumbledore should have confunded him. This together with Alberforth letting Snape go too quickly, Peter's betrayal, Voldemort's decision to choose Harry, Sirius convincing the Potters to make the switch, James and Lily agreeing to that, not having their wands when Voldy arrived, having Harry during the war, Dumbledore's lack of diligence, Sirius' lack of trust in Remus and visa versa sometimes, Snape not knowing who would be selected by the dark lord, Snape's neglect at home, his enemyship at school, his budding Death Eater friends - all goes toward mitigatigating Snape's role in delivering the prophecy. Presumably leaving him more or less blameless. :whistle: The only person that has yet to be held responsible in any way is Trelawny - but I'm in high expectation that her turn is coming up. :lol:. I'm actually surprised that no one has yet chastised Lily for not standing aside and letting Harry be killed so that Snape could be happy.


Do I sense a teensy bit of sarcasm here:whistle:? The funny thing is: all this can be said, and it all has a weight. I wouldn't say it makes Snape blameless of course: ha had to know that him telling on the prophecy will result in somebody's death, and though it is easier to condemn an unknown, faceless and nameless person to death than someone they know that doesn't make him blameless at all. But it is also true that if it wasn't for Wormtail they might have escaped, and if it wasn't for Wormtail leaking information they might have used Sirius as SK as planned because then Sirius and Lupin wouldn have had their doubts about one-another.
I don't think anybody is trying to prove that Snape is blameless. I fully aknowledge all his blame and even consider him somewhat lucky in a very twisted way that he came to be in this situation, otherwise he might have never realised the full extent of meaning of his chosen path (as a DE) but he really cannot be fully blamed for all of the happenings. Put it this way: true, that if Snape hasn't forwarded the prophecy then the Potters might have survived, but also true that if Wormtail hasn't sold them out (even with the prophecy known) they might have survived, so there are more than one instances they could have survived, therefore Snape is not the only one to blame:no:.

I think what zgirnius means with the highlighted text is that living with a DE who is spying on Snape puts a lot more strain on him and makes his job a lot harder, therefore his bravery is much more pronounced, thus it is an important part of the story.

I'm afraid we're going in circles.


Offishul topic change :yuhup:

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

I think what zgirnius means with the highlighted text is that living with a DE who is spying on Snape puts a lot more strain on him and makes his job a lot harder, therefore his bravery is much more pronounced, thus it is an important part of the story.

Ah, well if that was the point, then that would be another similarlity between them because the strain was as tough on Peter as it was on Snape, imo. Perhaps that is what JKR had in mind. It just seems like a bit of Snape's story that doesn't connect in with any other part of the tale. But on the other hand, you have to figure it must - so perhaps that is what she meant - or she was simply trying to show that Voldy had distrust. Still I am not really satisfied with either interpretation. Maybe it was just supposed to be humorous in an ironic sort of way...

ETA...I just figured it out, for myself anyway. :lol:. I think this is the missing piece to a plot hole I believed was in Snape's story - the delivery of the memories. I knew there had to be a tie in to the story somewhere. Because the sudden ability to (and "ability to" is chosen carefully) own up to his feelings about Lily and be truthful about his feelings regarding James and Sirius, in light of his tremendous desire never to do so, never made any sense to me. Nothing changed or happened to make him wish to do so - and gaining Harry's trust, while imperative, couldn't likely be done by Snape "live", imo. So he'd have to have planned on giving the memories I think. And I think that living with Peter may have enabled him to clarify a few truths that he still questioned. Because Snape came to realize that you don't kill people (or watch them die) just because you don't like them. So his understanding would be supported by that new viewpoint, imo. That makes sense to me. :)

And also, it ties the story in another way in that the hypocrisy Snape had shown in the shrieking shack, in blaming the betrayer (who was present in Peter, although Snape didn't realize it, at least at first) with self righteousness - meaning, as if he had clean hands in the matter - was thrown back upon him in the person of Peter (now known to be the real betrayer). Which also may explain why Snape didn't kill him, although he'd been hell bent on killing Sirius. But I feel that living with the traitor at that point, in the wake of Sirius' death, he'd have to ask himself if he could righteously judge Peter in the face of his own culpability and I assume the answer is no, since he didn't (Peter couldn't have acted - wouldn't have probably even been solicited by Voldemort, if Snape hadn't delivered the prophecy to him). So that would have been another truth faced up to by Snape, imo.

I'm afraid we're going in circles.


Offishul topic change :yuhup:

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

Well the problem is, Snape would have likely ended up in Azkaban, at least for a time, and that would be unfair. So he'd of had to go on the run to avoid that. The thing is, the dead need no proof, but the living do. If he'd given the message to Harry directly he'd have none. But if he gave it in memories - it would still likely be suspicious to the judiciary. He'd need a third party to verify the truth that Dumbledore was dying, he wasn't really a death eater, etc. It would be his word against the state - with its zillons of witnesses. Harry may have even been less certain if Snape remained alive. And because Snape was appointed as headmaster by Voldemort, it is doubtful they'd allow Dumbledore's portrait to serve as evidence (Snape's having had full control and privacy over the evidence for a good amount of time). So it is a tough call. Lucius got out of the DE bit, but he hadn't been confirmed to have killed anyone - although he was an Azkaban escapee - which should have seen him put away in any case. So it is difficult to figure what was going on in the judiciary - perhaps Lucius would be able to help Snape somehow. I figure Snape would just go on the run and settle in another country doing potions, perhaps in disguise - that would be easiest.

I'm afraid we're going in circles.


Offishul topic change :yuhup:

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

We tried discussing that too and got yelled at.

Snape didn't have any plans. He didn't have the ability to see past the end. But since I got an OWL last time that's all I'm saying.

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

...:whistle: There are a lot of different angles from which one could approach this question. There are his relations with former friends and colleagues. There's the media and their reaction to consider, as well as the job opportunities that would be open to him. There's the fact that his feelings about Lily are now common knowledge...and I'm sure he'd have a lot to say about what could possibly be a prolonged stay at St. Mungo's for his injuries.

And what about his things? Spinner's End might have been seized by the Ministry after Snape escaped from Hogwarts in HBP. His office and quarters at Hogwarts would definitely be searched and his jars of slimy things confiscated. His Gringotts account would be closed. Did he get his stuff back when the Ministry was taken over in DH? If not, how could it be recovered?

Spending years and years as a spy in the midst of a terrorist cult does not help a person during peacetime. He'd have to adapt to life as a normal citizen, a no-doubt long and painful process for anyone who has seen and done what he has.

And then, once that was all figured out, what could he possibly say to Harry, who would definitely want to talk to him about all that he shared?

All in all...he'd be a busy guy, just trying to get used to the end of the war. :lol:

Well the problem is, Snape would have likely ended up in Azkaban, at least for a time, and that would be unfair. So he'd of had to go on the run to avoid that.

I don't think he would have gone on the run. Whether the new Ministry chose to prosecute him or not (and it might well choose not to, the new Minister heard Harry tell Voldemort the whole story, and might consider Harry's bare word sufficient under the circumstances), I think Snape would stick around for a decision to be reached.

If he was not sentenced by the Ministry to serve time in Azkaban, I think he'd start out living reclusively, possibly as you suggest eslewhere, in a nother country. Or perhaps in the home he owns, but starting over rather with a career centered around his considerable magical skills in Potions and/or DADA.

I think Snape would wait until Harry cleared his name and then move to another country - United States, perhaps? Out West where there's lots of wide-open spaces and lovely peace and quiet. He could have a row of greenhouses and every now and then he'd send in his discoveries to the American Medical Journal under the name Dr. Prince.

:tu::lol:

I think Snape would wait until Harry cleared his name and then move to another country - United States, perhaps? Out West where there's lots of wide-open spaces and lovely peace and quiet. He could have a row of greenhouses and every now and then he'd send in his discoveries to the American Medical Journal under the name Dr. Prince.

:tu::lol:

Excellent! *runs off to write the fic* http://bestsmileys.com/writer/2.gif

Offishul topic change :yuhup:

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

Can I just say one word? awkward

But seriously, I imagine Snape having a hard time adjusting to life post-DH. I'm not sure if his home was seized and his bank account freezed as someone mentioned before, but if it was, then I think Snape would only get those things back when Harry cleared his name formally with the Ministry. Which I imagine involves a lot of explaining of his past. And that just seems to me be something Snape does not want to get into, especially in great detail.
I see him sticking long enough for his name to get cleared, and then him bailing out of England in the middle of the night, making sure never to be seen again by a previous student or acquaintance, and especially Harry.

I don't think he would have gone on the run. Whether the new Ministry chose to prosecute him or not (and it might well choose not to, the new Minister heard Harry tell Voldemort the whole story, and might consider Harry's bare word sufficient under the circumstances), I think Snape would stick around for a decision to be reached.

If he was not sentenced by the Ministry to serve time in Azkaban, I think he'd start out living reclusively, possibly as you suggest eslewhere, in a nother country. Or perhaps in the home he owns, but starting over rather with a career centered around his considerable magical skills in Potions and/or DADA.

The problem is always the fanatics, imo. Some would simply want to hang the noose on someone for Dumbledore's death - considering his stature in the wizard world. Snape is pegged for that killing, and proving the truth of it would be very hard, especially with the only proof being his own memories (and not dying one's which fall under the death bed statements rules and are conceded a little more validity). If Harry and Kingsley could be convinced of the truth, that would help - and if Narcissa, et. al., in the know about the vow kept quiet, that too would help. But DEs standing up for Snape would not help, imo, and many of them would likely try to turn states evidence against Snape to mitigate their own crimes.

On the other hand, there would be those, like Kingsley, who could verify that Snape had helped the Order - only of course the prosecutor would claim that was merely to forward his deception.

Also, you have to take into account that the judiciary might not be as liberal when it came to his escaping justice the first time - especially since it was Dumbledore (the man he'd now be accused of murdering) that had stood up for him. If they were dubious that he'd been working for Dumbledore since then, the total punishment would be grandiose. In the total balance, he might deserve a short stint - which wouldn't be that bad, but if a long prison term is on the table for crimes he should not be charged for, Snape would be better off getting outta there - in the fictional world anyway. :lol:.

Yes Severus might be 'better off getting out of there' but that's an external view and personally I sincerely doubt that he would go on the run. Throughout the books there is a sense imo of a man in a type of voluntary imprisonment – I can’t see someone who would impose this on himself running away from a prison sentence – especially for an act he abhorred doing and feels guilty about.

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

I think he would have gone for a career in stand-up comedy, finding a niche in the pubs and clubs of North England. His dead pan style and brilliant put down of hecklers would soon propel him to a TV career starting with a half hour show on BBC2 on Wednesday at 9 O' Clock. He would soon be making regular guest appearances on show such as "Have I got News for You?" and "QI". The latter show would give him plenty of opportunity to show off his wide ranging knowledge in many "Quite Interesting" fields and he wouold go on to become good friends with the shows host Stephen Fry (who as everyone knows is actually a wizard)In his spare time he would run a potions service for less capable potion makers and supply not just St Mungo's but also the Ministry who would require monthly batches of Wolfsbane to be provided free to werewolves. Naturally he would send a strongly worded owl to Harry Potter on the occasion of the birth of his second son telling him that he had better re-think the boys name or else. He would have a string of affairs with rather glamourous women who strangely enough were all redheads and would finally settle down and marry a girl considerably younger than himself and raise a family. Of course he would continue with his television career and become a regular supporter of Comic Relief. He would also found several muggle and wizarding charities for under-priveleged children.

Question #2: What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?

Gone into research for potions and spells, both he seems to be excellent at. :)

I'd also like to reflect on the issue of Dumbledore being more to blame for the prophecy reaching Voldemort: I understand that he was the one who 'let Snape go', but I have questions: was it common knowledge back then that Snape was a DE? If Dumbledore knew for a fact that he was what could he have done to prevent Snape hastening to his master? Lock him up? Kill him? How to silence him?

Have answered in the Dumbledore thread. :)

I think he would have gone for a career in stand-up comedy, finding a niche in the pubs and clubs of North England. His dead pan style and brilliant put down of hecklers would soon propel him to a TV career starting with a half hour show on BBC2 on Wednesday at 9 O' Clock. He would soon be making regular guest appearances on show such as "Have I got News for You?" and "QI". The latter show would give him plenty of opportunity to show off his wide ranging knowledge in many "Quite Interesting" fields and he wouold go on to become good friends with the shows host Stephen Fry (who as everyone knows is actually a wizard)In his spare time he would run a potions service for less capable potion makers and supply not just St Mungo's but also the Ministry who would require monthly batches of Wolfsbane to be provided free to werewolves. Naturally he would send a strongly worded owl to Harry Potter on the occasion of the birth of his second son telling him that he had better re-think the boys name or else. He would have a string of affairs with rather glamourous women who strangely enough were all redheads and would finally settle down and marry a girl considerably younger than himself and raise a family. Of course he would continue with his television career and become a regular supporter of Comic Relief. He would also found several muggle and wizarding charities for under-priveleged children.

Best. Post. Ever.

You've made my morning. :rotfl: :relax:

Yes Severus might be 'better off getting out of there' but that's an external view and personally I sincerely doubt that he would go on the run. Throughout the books there is a sense imo of a man in a type of voluntary imprisonment – I can’t see someone who would impose this on himself running away from a prison sentence – especially for an act he abhorred doing and feels guilty about.

Well then he'd likely end up in Azkaban with the normal sentence for murder due to a lack of of proof regarding mitigating circumstances. But since the dementors were gone, the conditions would be better than for those who'd been there in the past.

I think he would have gone for a career in stand-up comedy, finding a niche in the pubs and clubs of North England. His dead pan style and brilliant put down of hecklers would soon propel him to a TV career starting with a half hour show on BBC2 on Wednesday at 9 O' Clock. He would soon be making regular guest appearances on show such as "Have I got News for You?" and "QI". The latter show would give him plenty of opportunity to show off his wide ranging knowledge in many "Quite Interesting" fields and he wouold go on to become good friends with the shows host Stephen Fry (who as everyone knows is actually a wizard)In his spare time he would run a potions service for less capable potion makers and supply not just St Mungo's but also the Ministry who would require monthly batches of Wolfsbane to be provided free to werewolves. Naturally he would send a strongly worded owl to Harry Potter on the occasion of the birth of his second son telling him that he had better re-think the boys name or else. He would have a string of affairs with rather glamourous women who strangely enough were all redheads and would finally settle down and marry a girl considerably younger than himself and raise a family. Of course he would continue with his television career and become a regular supporter of Comic Relief. He would also found several muggle and wizarding charities for under-priveleged children.

I think this is very likely. Are you by any chance a descendent of Cassandra Trelawney?

Well then he'd likely end up in Azkaban with the normal sentence for murder due to a lack of of proof regarding mitigating circumstances. But since the dementors were gone, the conditions would be better than for those who'd been there in the past.

And he'd be at the center of a "Free Snape" movement to correct this injustice, one led by prominent members of society including the famous Auror and hero, Harry Potter.

Not only that, but Snape's memories, all the headmaster portraits, and Hagrid's testimony would definitely help his case if there were a trial.

I can just imagine his reaction when he finds out that 'the boy wonder' is his main advocate :rotfl:

And he'd be at the center of a "Free Snape" movement to correct this injustice, one led by prominent members of society including the famous Auror and hero, Harry Potter.

Perhaps, but I am uncertain if Snape lived whether or not he would have given Harry any memories - or rather advised him another way (verbal and take to the portrait for verifcation) - even then, I am unsure of Harry's willingness to believe Snape. A deathbed statement is simply more reliable for various reasons. Snape's message remember was that Harry had to die at Voldemort's hand and not put up any defense. Coming from a loyal DE, who had killed Dumbledore and helped kill his parents, that might not have gone over so big. So it would depend on the circumstances, imo, for all we know, Harry may not have believed Snape at all and just tried to fight Voldemort. If he so happened to use a disarming spell, things could have totally gone differently.

Hence, I am not sure what type of advocacy Harry would provide after the fact. If he did believe Snape though, he would advocate because that is the type of character he had, imo.

Ignisia: Not only that, but Snape's memories, all the headmaster portraits, and Hagrid's testimony would definitely help his case if there were a trial.

In my judgment, the memories would all be much less convincing to judges who had no mothers who Snape purportedly held emotions for or father's Snape was jealous of. So the sum total of the memories geared to gain Harry's trust, would have no merit for an objective judge to whom Dumbledore had not declared his trust of Snape for *mysterious* reasons. And the veracity of the memories of a DE would also be the subject of some concern as they had been fooled by memories in the past. The portrait would have little evidentary value since Snape had full control over the office as headmaster via Voldemort's appointment, imo.

That is the problem - there is little in the way of evidence - all the DEs and Order members felt Snape was guilty - everyone did. And see above, because if Snape remained alive, you would have to get into the issue of how he would give the message to Harry in a way that Harry might trust. And lest we forget, Snape did actually kill Dumbledore, so his defense is limited to his 'intent' in doing so. That is normally mitigated, but not excused, but even if it could be, it would be tremendously difficult to prove, imo.

While some readers find the doe terribly convincing - recall that Harry had doubts and if he found out the source because Snape was trying to use it to convince him he had to die - then he might consider that the whole sword thing was a set up to win his faith and consider even that a trick. Not to mention Snape would have to somehow immobilize Harry to even speak to him, imo, because Harry would likely attack without much listening. And finally, there are the logistics because finding Harry "alone" would also prove to be problematic.

Naturally, any or all of these circumstances could be cured by a wise Author in writing - but when you move away from the canon logic, one can't simply say 'Harry would be alone' in the castle, because he never was except when under his invisibility cloak and Snape could not see him then. As it was, Snape was looking for him and unable to find him or even figure out if he were truly in the castle. I am unsure what testimony Hagrid had that might help.

No early memory is remotely relevant (why should anyone even suggest the judge watch the Lily memories? ) The first one of relevance to a hypothetical judicial proceeding against Snape is the GoF one discussing Karkaroff. It would establish that Snape went back to the DEs as a spy to serve Albus just as he had in the latter part of the first war. The one memory of Snape and Albus speaking after Snape has saved his life clears him of murder. Their conversations in the Forest and later ALbus's office confirm ALbus did not change his mind, and Snape did act as a spy and was considered valuable in the role by ALbus. The even later ones address specific actions Snape took to which someone might object and establish the usefulness to the defeat of Voldemort of Snape's position as Headmaster.

Which brings me back from the wonderful world of fanon. :D I think it is clear all the memories before the GoF one were there for Harry, not to "prove" anything about Snape's crimes or loyalties. The legal case of hard facts needed to establish Snape's true loyalties and innocence of the murder of Albus are in the memories I listed. The other memories are there for a different reason.

While some readers find the doe terribly convincing - recall that Harry had doubts and if he found out the source because Snape was trying to use it to convince him he had to die -

I know some of this is just speculation, so maybe I'm missing the point here, but I wanted to point out that Harry never doubted the Patronus. This is what happens after the Doe steps out from behind the tree:

Deathly Hallows p 366 (US version)

Harry stared at the creature, filled with wonder, not at her strangeness, but at her inexplicable familiarity. He felt that he had been waiting for her to come, but that he had forgotten, until this moment, that they had arranged to meet. His impulse to shout for Hermione, which had been so strong a moment ago, had gone. He knew he would have staked his life on it, that she had come for him and him alone. (...)
For one trembling second he hesitated. Caution murmured it could be a trick, a lure , a trap. But instinct,. overwhelming instinct, told him that this was not Dark Magic."

And in the Prince's Tale, the moment he finds out the source of the Patronus, he is not visibly surprised (because he has viewed all the memories that led up to it and understand s that the Doe represented Lily - and that was Snape's connection to Harry and vice versa) nor does he doubt Snape's motives by then.

Thanks, Bscorp! I didn't recall any doubts about the Silver Doe either.

I know some of this is just speculation, so maybe I'm missing the point here, but I wanted to point out that Harry never doubted the Patronus. This is what happens after the Doe steps out from behind the tree:

And in the Prince's Tale, the moment he finds out the source of the Patronus, he is not visibly surprised (because he has viewed all the memories that led up to it and understand s that the Doe represented Lily - and that was Snape's connection to Harry and vice versa) nor does he doubt Snape's motives by then.

Well we simply read the canon distinctly. But if this isn't a moment of doubt, what is it?:

"For one trembling second he hesitated. Caution murmured it could be a trick, a lure , a trap. But instinct,. overwhelming instinct, told him that this was not Dark Magic."

Doubt followed by deciding not to doubt does not erase the doubt that entered his mind. And that would be sufficient, once he saw Snape issue another one "alive" before him, to become suspicious again, based on his original moment of doubt, imo. Snape was not associated with the "feeling of familiarity" in my judgment - that was associated with whatever it spoke of in terms of Lily, and Harry never reached the conclusion that it had anything to do with his mother in that scene. So Harry would smell deception in the air, imo.

The point was that Harry might feel the whole doe-sword deal was a set up to give him faith in this Death Eater, Snape, who is now trying to convince him to let Voldemort kill him in cold blood without resistance. I don't know about others, but to me, that message is pretty drastic (it contradicts Harry's main purpose in life) and coming from a non-trusted, murderous, Death Eater, I feel Harry would simply not believe it - I think he would immediately assume the previous "help" was used as a trick to set him up for the "kill". Harry was not naive or stupid, nor gaga over Snape based on their past, so there would be no reason for him to believe - rather lots of reasons not to, imo. And in case anyone moves to suggest it, while DEs normally do not issue patronuses, Wizards don't normally fly either - as Lupin said, Voldemort was pulling out all the stops when it came to new magic and so nothing could be trusted based on what was presumably 'known' imo.

I feel Harry would simply not believe it - I think he would immediately assume the previous "help" was used as a trick to set him up for the "kill". Harry was not naive or stupid, nor gaga over Snape based on their past, so there would be no reason for him to believe - rather lots of reasons not to, imo. And in case anyone moves to suggest it, while DEs normally do not issue patronuses, Wizards don't normally fly either - as Lupin said, Voldemort was pulling out all the stops when it came to new magic and so nothing could be trusted based on what was presumably 'known' imo.

And yet he does follow the Silver Doe, and he does find the Sword of Gryffindor, and Ron destroys the horcrux with it. So his original doubt, if you can call the moment of hesitation a real doubt, is erased.

The proof is in the result, and he was right to follow his instinct.

It's true that before DH was released people felt that Snape might not have a Patronus because he didn't have alot of happy memories. But now we know he did have one, and it was a good one. :)

And he knew Harry very well too. This was his plan as he told Dumbledore and it was a mighty good one. He knew Harry would respond positively and trust his Patronus, which even though Harry did not know at the time was equal to trusting Snape IMO.

I'm wasn't referring to the doe scene - I was referring to the hypothetical situation that Moriath raised. The next scene in which an "alive" Snape shows himself to be the owner of that doe. It isn't like "see the doe" - no longer Murderer of Dumbledore, man who helped kill my parents, man who has been mistreating me all along and hates me and everyone I love (including my mum) - all those things would still be true. So, imo, the re-issue of the doe would not in and of itself help. Perhaps he could have the doe lead Harry to memories (where he is not present) - but again...being led to those particular memories would likely leave one wary if Snape were still alive. Voldemort and the DEs were mighty tricksters, and although it is hard to go back in time and remember how Harry felt before he saw them - that is the position one has to think about - that is the point of the storyline I am referring to. This newest memory is not one that will help Harry - this new one is sending him to his Death - feeding him to Voldemort, literally. So one has to consider all this, imo.

Well we simply read the canon distinctly. But if this isn't a moment of doubt, what is it?:

"For one trembling second he hesitated. Caution murmured it could be a trick, a lure , a trap. But instinct,. overwhelming instinct, told him that this was not Dark Magic."

Doubt followed by deciding not to doubt does not erase the doubt that entered his mind. And that would be sufficient, once he saw Snape issue another one "alive" before him, to become suspicious again, based on his original moment of doubt, imo. Snape was not associated with the "feeling of familiarity" in my judgment - that was associated with whatever it spoke of in terms of Lily, and Harry never reached the conclusion that it had anything to do with his mother in that scene. So Harry would smell deception in the air, imo.
For Harry not to hesitate given the situation he was in would show a recklessness beyond foolhardy and into the realms of insanity! Even as I read the scene for the first time I thought Harry was taking a huge risk in following the Doe without alerting Hermione.

I don't think this hesitation really has any bearing on whether or not Harry would trust Snape enough to have a face to face meeting, and frankly if Snape could pass memories to him as he was dying why couldn't he do it when he was alive, and if Harry was convinced of Snape's loyalty having viewed those memories why should it make any difference if Snape was still alive? Given Harry's actions in the Shrieking Shack when he spared Peter I see no reason why he would not have taken the memories from Snape.

This newest memory is not one that will help Harry - this new one is sending him to his Death - feeding him to Voldemort, literally. But I think that Harry knew the truth of this when he saw the memory and I think he would have known the truth of it regardless of whether Snape was alive or not. This was the last piece of the puzzle for Harry - the knowledge that he had a piece of Voldemort's soul in him - and it explained an awful lot of things that Harry had not quite understood fully. Harry knew what an amended memory was like and knew he would recognise one so I think he would know that Snape's memories were genuine. Harry - like a lot of genuinely good people - has an instinct for good - and I think he would have recognised it in Snape at that point.

There are also other moments where Harry has a strong sense of trust for something that is Snape in another form, the HBP potions book for example. All these moments come together when Harry finds Snape dying and approaches him - not knowing why but to me there is a sense of trust that Harry doesn't really understand but acts on none the less. :)

Well we can all think whatever, since it didn't happen anyway. :lol:

What I always wondered was why Snape kept trusting Dumbledore. I mean, I feel he'd want revenge on Voldemort and maybe even felt having him vanquished was the only thing worth dying for. So he just kept following Dumbledore despite his belief that he'd twice failed/used him, imo. That in the end, his death was a result of Dumbledore's plans (inadvertently or planned) isn't surprising, but you know, Snape was in the unique position of being the only one who could get close to Voldemort. Close enough to kill him. It is a bit of a plot hole to me that he never tried to kill Voldy combined with his being called brave, because that just smacks of utter cowardice, imo. I understand it would be literally impossible, but Snape didn't know that. And I also think it would be tremendously hard to do - but you have to imagine he'd at least try.

Snape was in the unique position of being the only one who could get close to Voldemort. Close enough to kill him. It is a bit of a plot hole to me that he never tried to kill Voldy combined with his being called brave, because that just smacks of utter cowardice, imo. I understand it would be literally impossible, but Snape didn't know that. And I also think it would be tremendously hard to do - but you have to imagine he'd at least try.

I not sure that is correct that Snape didn't know Voldemort couldn't be killed. We know that Voldemort boasted enought about his invulnrability, going further into the Dark Arts than anyone else etc for Regulus, at the age of 17, to work out part of what Voldemort had done. We also know that Severus had accepted the fact that Voldemort would be back, hence was not truely dead, other wise he would not have agreed to protect Harry.

Severus did not know the full facts, that is true, but I think he knew enough to know that his attacking Voldemort openly and trying to kil him would not work.

I think he would have gone for a career in stand-up comedy, finding a niche in the pubs and clubs of North England. His dead pan style and brilliant put down of hecklers would soon propel him to a TV career starting with a half hour show on BBC2 on Wednesday at 9 O' Clock. He would soon be making regular guest appearances on show such as "Have I got News for You?" and "QI". The latter show would give him plenty of opportunity to show off his wide ranging knowledge in many "Quite Interesting" fields and he wouold go on to become good friends with the shows host Stephen Fry (who as everyone knows is actually a wizard)In his spare time he would run a potions service for less capable potion makers and supply not just St Mungo's but also the Ministry who would require monthly batches of Wolfsbane to be provided free to werewolves. Naturally he would send a strongly worded owl to Harry Potter on the occasion of the birth of his second son telling him that he had better re-think the boys name or else. He would have a string of affairs with rather glamourous women who strangely enough were all redheads and would finally settle down and marry a girl considerably younger than himself and raise a family. Of course he would continue with his television career and become a regular supporter of Comic Relief. He would also found several muggle and wizarding charities for under-priveleged children.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

:tu::tu::tu::tu::tu::tu::tu::tu:

Best post ever indeed. :rotfl:

As for this whole issue of Harry acting as Snape's advocate if Snape had survived the war, well, naturally the Wizengamot would peruse Snape's memories with a fine toothcomb. So proving Snape's true innocence would be difficult, but not impossible. :cool:

Especially as Harry's word does carry a lot of weight with the Wizarding World. :cool:

What I always wondered was why Snape kept trusting Dumbledore.

Maybe that tells us something about Snape's character. :relax:

I mean, I feel he'd want revenge on Voldemort and maybe even felt having him vanquished was the only thing worth dying for. So he just kept following Dumbledore despite his belief that he'd twice failed/used him, imo. That in the end, his death was a result of Dumbledore's plans (inadvertently or planned) isn't surprising, but you know, Snape was in the unique position of being the only one who could get close to Voldemort. Close enough to kill him. It is a bit of a plot hole to me that he never tried to kill Voldy combined with his being called brave, because that just smacks of utter cowardice, imo. I understand it would be literally impossible, but Snape didn't know that. And I also think it would be tremendously hard to do - but you have to imagine he'd at least try.

Wasn't it known by Dumbledore and Snape that only Harry could finally kill Voldemort? :hmm: Wasn't that spelled out by the Prophecy? :hmm:

I not sure that is correct that Snape didn't know Voldemort couldn't be killed. We know that Voldemort boasted enought about his invulnrability, going further into the Dark Arts than anyone else etc for Regulus, at the age of 17, to work out part of what Voldemort had done. We also know that Severus had accepted the fact that Voldemort would be back, hence was not truely dead, other wise he would not have agreed to protect Harry.

Severus did not know the full facts, that is true, but I think he knew enough to know that his attacking Voldemort openly and trying to kil him would not work.

Yes, but only Regulus was noted for having figured this out (Kreacher's involvment helped provide further clues for him). Voldy didn't die that round, but Dumbledore didn't say that he could never be killed.

Maybe that tells us something about Snape's character. :relax:

Gullible? Or seeking revenge on Voldemort was more important than his life? It is more than just wanting to do what is right because first, you don't do what is wrong to get to what is right (although he was a Slytherin...) and second, Dumbledore's plans involving Snape kept backfiring on him.

I do see some things as Dumbledore being too...umm..."wise old dude". For example when Snape accused Sirius of trying to murderer him, Dumbledore ominously responds "I remember everything". Well we find out what he meant in the memories; Snape's own culpability, imo. But, it seems to me that if Dumbledore really wanted to help set Snape straight, he would have pulled him aside and made him face up to some of these truths along the way. It would have made things much easier on Harry, imo. Instead, he left it up to Snape to follow what he meant, figuring he was intelligent enough to do so. However, Snape wasn't doing any such thing - he just ignored what he didn't want to hear and face up to, imo.

But this is different than the actual plans Dumbledore made that invovled Snape.

Wasn't it known by Dumbledore and Snape that only Harry could finally kill Voldemort? :hmm: Wasn't that spelled out by the Prophecy? :hmm:

No, Snape didn't hear that portion.

It is a bit of a plot hole to me that he never tried to kill Voldy combined with his being called brave, because that just smacks of utter cowardice, imo. I understand it would be literally impossible, but Snape didn't know that. And I also think it would be tremendously hard to do - but you have to imagine he'd at least try.
Snape knew enough about Voldemort to know that it would be pointless to try to kill him. Afterall this was the wizard who effectively evaded death. Now Snape may not have known exactly what Voldemort did to survive and then come back fully, but he would have known it was very dark magic and he would have known that a direct attempt on his life would be useless. He also knew the prophecy indicated that Harry was the one with the power to vanquish Voldemort, so it is quite fair IMO for him to assume that he wouldn't be able to for whatever reason. I also think that a failed attempt would not only cost Snape his life (which I don't think he would be too bothered about) but more importantly would loose the Order their spy in the DE ranks and be a serious blow for the fight against Voldemort.

But, it seems to me that if Dumbledore really wanted to help set Snape straight, he would have pulled him aside and made him face up to some of these truths along the way.People can only be "set straight" about things and made to face truths if they want to be. Going around telling people they are wrong about things is not a good idea and generally leads to a rift (if not a punch in the face!) I mean wick we've been trying to set you straight about Snape for years! :lol: That's meant as a joke btw. :scared:

For Harry not to hesitate given the situation he was in would show a recklessness beyond foolhardy and into the realms of insanity! Even as I read the scene for the first time I thought Harry was taking a huge risk in following the Doe without alerting Hermione.

I don't think this hesitation really has any bearing on whether or not Harry would trust Snape enough to have a face to face meeting, and frankly if Snape could pass memories to him as he was dying why couldn't he do it when he was alive, and if Harry was convinced of Snape's loyalty having viewed those memories why should it make any difference if Snape was still alive? Given Harry's actions in the Shrieking Shack when he spared Peter I see no reason why he would not have taken the memories from Snape.

Well said.

I might further add, according to JKR, the Pensieve shows truth not interpretations. So anything Harry sees in it is truth, the way it really happened without the influence of other people's thoughts.

Snape knew enough about Voldemort to know that it would be pointless to try to kill him. Afterall this was the wizard who effectively evaded death. Now Snape may not have known exactly what Voldemort did to survive and then come back fully, but he would have known it was very dark magic and he would have known that a direct attempt on his life would be useless. He also knew the prophecy indicated that Harry was the one with the power to vanquish Voldemort, so it is quite fair IMO for him to assume that he wouldn't be able to for whatever reason. I also think that a failed attempt would not only cost Snape his life (which I don't think he would be too bothered about) but more importantly would loose the Order their spy in the DE ranks and be a serious blow for the fight against Voldemort.

Well I was thinking more in terms of Snape himself. The more I think about it, the more I believe that Snape simply felt he wasn't cut out to make the attempt. It is true that he would see it as difficult, but more, he at most made easier kills as a DE (unsuspecting Muggles, etc.) and less-talented-than-Voldemort Order members, and he was a practiced spy, so he wasn't likely the man for the job to attempt it in his mind. I feel his arrogance was mostly a front for his insecurity, so acting on that front was out, imo (I mean it in the good sense of garnering you fortitude, determination, courage, etc). And his bravery at spying is mitigated by his uniquely great cover - having been a true DE prior to jumping sides. So it was likely his belief that he simply did not have the fortitude necessary to make the attempt - which can greatly affect the outcome, imo. It was the same back when Lily was threatened, imo. He really did want to save her if he could and the best way to do that would be to kill Voldemort, imo. But Snape didn't even try - in my judgment, it was likely for the same reason.

Well I was thinking more in terms of Snape himself. The more I think about it, the more I believe that Snape simply felt he wasn't cut out to make the attempt. It is true that he would see it as difficult, but more, he at most made easier kills as a DE (unsuspecting Muggles, etc.) and less-talented-than-Voldemort Order members, and he was a practiced spy, so he wasn't likely the man for the job to attempt it in his mind. I feel his arrogance was mostly a front for his insecurity, so acting on that front was out, imo (I mean it in the good sense of garnering you fortitude, determination, courage, etc). And his bravery at spying is mitigated by his uniquely great cover - having been a true DE prior to jumping sides. So it was likely his belief that he simply did not have the fortitude necessary to make the attempt - which can greatly affect the outcome, imo. It was the same back when Lily was threatened, imo. He really did want to save her if he could and the best way to do that would be to kill Voldemort, imo. But Snape didn't even try - in my judgment, it was likely for the same reason.

I'll agree, up to the last sentence.

I think a few things came into play for Lily's life. First I think he believed Dumbledore would keep her safe. He had no reason not to believe it, and he wouldn't have gone to the man if he felt Dumbledore didn't have the power to keep his word. I also think he knew Voldemort feared Dumbledore. I think he'd also consider that any attempt on Voldemort's life that was traced back to him would cause further damage, not to him and his standing in the DEs (As it obviously would), but to Lily as well. As horrible as it was, she was killed simply by AK. But her death could have been much more painful and dirty. And Voldemort would have used it if he felt it would hurt Snape for his betrayal.

Well I was thinking more in terms of Snape himself. The more I think about it, the more I believe that Snape simply felt he wasn't cut out to make the attempt. It is true that he would see it as difficult, but more, he at most made easier kills as a DE (unsuspecting Muggles, etc.) and less-talented-than-Voldemort Order members, and he was a practiced spy, so he wasn't likely the man for the job to attempt it in his mind.

Surely this is all speculative. :) We have no canon as to what Snape got up to as a DE -- I am not doubting that he did some pretty awful things during that time, otherwise his credentials would not have counted for much with Voldemort during the Second War, when Snape professed his 'loyalty'. But we can't say for sure.

Likewise, we have no canon, really, on which to speculate as to why he didn't attempt to kill Voldemort himself. Apart from this obviously ruining Jo's long-term plot, of course. :lol:

I think a few things came into play for Lily's life. First I think he believed Dumbledore would keep her safe. He had no reason not to believe it, and he wouldn't have gone to the man if he felt Dumbledore didn't have the power to keep his word. I also think he knew Voldemort feared Dumbledore. I think he'd also consider that any attempt on Voldemort's life that was traced back to him would cause further damage, not to him and his standing in the DEs (As it obviously would), but to Lily as well. As horrible as it was, she was killed simply by AK. But her death could have been much more painful and dirty. And Voldemort would have used it if he felt it would hurt Snape for his betrayal.

Re: your last sentence, ugh, I am sure Voldemort would have done that. *shudder* Although his wiping out of James and Lily is shockingly callous (of course), at least it was painless (physically, I mean).

I think a few things came into play for Lily's life. First I think he believed Dumbledore would keep her safe. He had no reason not to believe it, and he wouldn't have gone to the man if he felt Dumbledore didn't have the power to keep his word. I also think he knew Voldemort feared Dumbledore.

Well Snape asked Dumbledore to keep Lily safe - as you point out, not to kill Voldemort. I am not sure what Voldemort's fear had to do with anything - he acted in any case.

I think he'd also consider that any attempt on Voldemort's life that was traced back to him would cause further damage, not to him and his standing in the DEs (As it obviously would), but to Lily as well. As horrible as it was, she was killed simply by AK. But her death could have been much more painful and dirty. And Voldemort would have used it if he felt it would hurt Snape for his betrayal.

I didn't say that Snape should confess to Voldemort why he was trying to kill him, just that I thought he would make the attempt since he had personal access to him.

Surely this is all speculative. :) We have no canon as to what Snape got up to as a DE -- I am not doubting that he did some pretty awful things during that time, otherwise his credentials would not have counted for much with Voldemort during the Second War, when Snape professed his 'loyalty'. But we can't say for sure.

Well we have no canon on what any of the DEs got up to specifically except like one event - after the first war. :lol: We just have canon on what all of the DEs were up to under Voldemort.

Likewise, we have no canon, really, on which to speculate as to why he didn't attempt to kill Voldemort himself. Apart from this obviously ruining Jo's long-term plot, of course. :lol:

Right - the question was why Snape didn't make the attempt. I felt it left a plot hole for the very reason you gave - like he didn't because it would hurt the plot if either died. But in story, one can only guess.

Re: your last sentence, ugh, I am sure Voldemort would have done that. *shudder* Although his wiping out of James and Lily is shockingly callous (of course), at least it was painless (physically, I mean).

Snape behaved in a shallow-minded and selfish enough manner to likely think this way, having no understanding what true love was and considering his emotions in terms of himself and his own happiness, imo. However, it would miss the point wouldn't it? There would be no pain if Voldemort was dead, imo. Nonetheless, based on his charcter at the time, it is a possibility - I mean perhaps he would have been unwise enough to confess as he attempted to kill Voldemort, rather than wisely claim it was for another reason to avoid this eventuality...

There are also other moments where Harry has a strong sense of trust for something that is Snape in another form, the HBP potions book for example. All these moments come together when Harry finds Snape dying and approaches him - not knowing why but to me there is a sense of trust that Harry doesn't really understand but acts on none the less. :)

Excellent point. Harry didn't know exactly what he was doing, but unconsciously he went to Snape's side anyway.

I love it that Harry trusts the Potions Book with Ron's life when he shoves the bezoar down his throat. Of course Hermione reminds him that they learned that from Snape on the first day of class in first year.

Bezoar + Book + Bottle of Memories = Snape's Legacy to Harry

Snape behaved in a shallow-minded and selfish enough manner to likely think this way, having no understanding what true love was and considering his emotions in terms of himself and his own happiness, imo.

I am totally unclear as to what point you are making here. :huh: I was taking up Labyrnth's point that if Voldemort had got wise to Snape's betrayal of him to Dumbledore in 1981, then likely he would have made Lily's death more painful ( :scared: ). That is hardly something that would have made Snape happy, so you've completely lost me. :shrug:

I'm feeling a bit of a Dunderhead for not having thought of this before! :blush:

Why should Severus Snape attempt to kill Voldemort in cold blood? That is murder. If he killed Voldemort whilst defending Lily then that would be self defence - or at least Lily-defence - but to just think "well he's going to target the woman I love so I'm going to kill him" is indefensible cold-blooded murder. What this tells me about Severus is that he wasn't a cold-blooded murderer, and that he did have some sense of right and wrong. What Severus did was go to the one man who could protect Lily and prevent her being killed. What would you do if the person you loved was targetted by a homicidal maniac? I know I would go to the police - in Snape's case this would have been the Ministry who I cannot see as being that helpful - and I think Snape would have come to that conclusion too - so he went to Dumbledore. Not attempting to kill Voldemort does not mean that he is a coward - Harry never attempted to kill Voldemort either - it shows that he knows right from wrong and that (to quote Terminator 2) "You can't just go around killing people."

Why should Severus Snape attempt to kill Voldemort in cold blood? That is murder. If he killed Voldemort whilst defending Lily then that would be self defence - or at least Lily-defence - but to just think "well he's going to target the woman I love so I'm going to kill him" is indefensible cold-blooded murder. What this tells me about Severus is that he wasn't a cold-blooded murderer, and that he did have some sense of right and wrong. What Severus did was go to the one man who could protect Lily and prevent her being killed. What would you do if the person you loved was targetted by a homicidal maniac? I know I would go to the police - in Snape's case this would have been the Ministry who I cannot see as being that helpful - and I think Snape would have come to that conclusion too - so he went to Dumbledore. Not attempting to kill Voldemort does not mean that he is a coward - Harry never attempted to kill Voldemort either - it shows that he knows right from wrong and that (to quote Terminator 2) "You can't just go around killing people."

I'm not quite convinced, Cathy. If we're talking about the events of 1980-1, I presume that previously Severus had no problem about cold-blooded murder of Muggles and other Muggleborns besides Lily, while he was still a paid-up Death Eater. So, with that history, why would he baulk at murdering Voldemort, who had it in mind to murder Lily and her family? :hmm:

I believe his moral compass did begin to change after Lily's murder. Which I know is the position of the Snape fans on this forum, including myself. :relax: :)

I don't want to go off on a tangent but I can't help thinking of the people in WW2 who plotted to assassinate Hitler. Were those people wrong? I realise that's a highly contentious issue, and wider than the remit of this thread, but I just wanted to point that out, because to me this is far from a black-and-white issue.

I'm not quite convinced, Cathy. If we're talking about the events of 1980-1, I presume that previously Severus had no problem about cold-blooded murder of Muggles and other Muggleborns besides Lily, while he was still a paid-up Death Eater. So, with that history, why would he baulk at murdering Voldemort, who had it in mind to murder Lily and her family?

I'm not sure we can assume that Snape "had no problem" about cold-blooded murder of Muggles. He was a Half-Blood after all. He may not have liked Muggles but that doesn't mean he enjoyed murder, anymore than Harry did. I'm with Cathy Weasley on this one. There's just no evidence for me in the books that Snape enjoyed killing.

Besides that, in DH, nearly the Death Eaters look away from what is happening to Charity Burbage. No one is enjoying it. Snape only looks at her when she says his name, and in my opinion he is not too thrilled.

Sirius Black said that even his Pureblood parents didn't know how far Voldemort would go, and Kreacher said that something caused Regulus to be "disturbed in his mind" before he turned on Voldemort. JKR said Snape "saw" things, not that he really wanted to see them. I think that's a subtle point, but it rings true. I think it's realistic that we have several Death Eaters who turned from Voldemort because of their basic humanity, just as Dumbledore realized what Grindelwald was planning to do and turned on him.

We couldn't call Dumbledore a cold-blooded killer, even though he felt that killing could be justified in wartime. But he never tried to kill Voldemort either, so how can we hold that against Snape?

I tend to agree. I have a problem with seeing anyone's moral compass as having an either / or existence. Morality is not as black and white as we might like it imagine at times. Morality is not, in my opinion, something one either has or does not have but a spectrum that ranges from someone being so good/pure that it is well neigh impossible to achieve to someone at the end who is too evil to amply explain in a simple & family friendly post - most of lie somewhere in the middle. To me membership of the DE dos not automatically or adequately describe a person's moral compass other that to say they are not at that end of the spectrum we all aspire to. :)

SIP's point about JKR talking about what he has seen not what he has done link well to Bellatrix's jibe to Severus about his always slithering out of action - of course it is just as possible that she was referring to his behaviour since Voldemort rose again, but to me there is an implication in her statement that stretches beyond those narrow confines and this links wth the recent posts by Cathy & SIP imo. :)

I don't want to go off on a tangent but I can't help thinking of the people in WW2 who plotted to assassinate Hitler. Were those people wrong? I realise that's a highly contentious issue, and wider than the remit of this thread, but I just wanted to point that out, because to me this is far from a black-and-white issue.I agree it is not black and white. The plot to assassinate Hitler is a tough one. Two points though - Firstly Snape didn't plot with others to kill Voldemort - he would have been on his own. That makes ot a very different prospect both from a moral (Am I doing the right thing?) point of view and a bravery point of view. Secondly at the point we are talking about Voldemort was on the rise and the death eaters were a pretty fanatical bunch; for them he was the answer to their problems. (Which is how Hitler was viewed by many when he first came to power in Germany)The point at which the Hitler plot took place was after he had been in power for some time and people had realised what he was about. Their was a plot to assassinate Voldemort that did involve many - it was co-ordinated by Dumbledore, Snape was a key player and Harry was the assassin - but even then Harry didn't actually try to kill Voldemort - though he did have the advantage of knowing that he couldn't hurt them. Morally it is a bit of a maze - but I still think that Severus was not far gone into evil enough to think that it was just okay to murder someone - though I am sure who it was played into it as well.

I tend to agree. I have a problem with seeing anyone's moral compass as having an either / or existence. Morality is not as black and white as we might like it imagine at times. Morality is not, in my opinion, something one either has or does not have but a spectrum that ranges from someone being so good/pure that it is well neigh impossible to achieve to someone at the end who is too evil to amply explain in a simple & family friendly post - most of lie somewhere in the middle. To me membership of the DE dos not automatically or adequately describe a person's moral compass other that to say they are not at that end of the spectrum we all aspire to. I completely agree - and you express it far better than I could have!

II'm not quite convinced, Cathy. If we're talking about the events of 1980-1, I presume that previously Severus had no problem about cold-blooded murder of Muggles and other Muggleborns besides Lily, while he was still a paid-up Death Eater. So, with that history, why would he baulk at murdering Voldemort, who had it in mind to murder Lily and her family?

We no canon to suggest that snape ever participated in murders - only that he spied for Voldemort. Bellatrix's suspicion of him pointing out that he always stayed out of the fray, and implied to me that Snape did not participate actively in their activities. In fact I would argue that if Voldemort were smart- and wanted someone loyal to him to apply to the job at Hogwarts - he would have to send someone who was relatively "clean." This isn't to say Snape was incapable of Watching the DE's do things and ignoring the humanity up to a certain point of his life (when Lily was threatened). I would guess that Snape had shut down a lot of his heart as a young man- but clearly it wasn't dead completely.

If Dumbledore has any suspicions of Snape's activities whatsoever all he would have to do is run a spell on Snape's wand to see what spells had been recently cast or do some good Legilimency (though we know Snape was good at Occlumency) among other things.

If Dumbledore has any suspicions of Snape's activities whatsoever all he would have to do is run a spell on Snape's wand to see what spells had been recently cast or do some good Legilimency (though we know Snape was good at Occlumency) among other things.

To add to that - I think Voldemort would know that Dumbledore had ways of getting people to admit the truth. Look at how Dumbledore interrogated Tom Riddle over the DADA job!

I see no reason why we shouldn't believe Bellatrix at Spinner's End. She is angry and blurts out several things, such as the Dark Lord not confiding in her. She's frustrated with Voldemort and with Snape, and she's jealous that Snape is "most trusted" all of a sudden. So given all that information, and the fact that the chapter is written in 3rd person as if we are a fly on the wall (or a rat in the wall), then why wouldn't we believe her when she says Snape never gets his hands dirty? Also she berates him for "teaching his favorite subject" as a way to serve the Dark Lord. :lol: That always cracks me up.

The way I see it, canon suggests that as a young man, Severus condoned some murders, but may not have committed them himself.

IMHO, whether Severus would feel it was wrong on a moral level to kill Voldemort himself depends on how well he knew Voldemort and how aware he was of the human being lurking beneath the mass murderer. Canon's kind of silent on the subject because Severus could never show what he truly thought of Voldemort in the man's presence. Hated him? Very probably. But kill him? Not sure.

It's true that by the time of HBP, he was definitely against killing innocent people in general, but Voldemort is not exactly an innocent, and it's therefore murkier...:hmm:

The way I see it, canon suggests that as a young man, Severus condoned some murders, but may not have committed them himself.

IMHO, whether Severus would feel it was wrong on a moral level to kill Voldemort himself depends on how well he knew Voldemort and how aware he was of the human being lurking beneath the mass murderer. Canon's kind of silent on the subject because Severus could never show what he truly thought of Voldemort in the man's presence. Hated him? Very probably. But kill him? Not sure.

It's true that by the time of HBP, he was definitely against killing innocent people in general, but Voldemort is not exactly an innocent, and it's therefore murkier...:hmm:

Something else to consider - I wonder also how aware the DEs were of the fact that Voldemort had ways of "defeating" death? Was there anything in his speech to the DEs in GOF that suggested they would have known he'd be back? Just a thought, but perhaps Snape knew someway that out and out attacking Voldemort would be fruitless to the piont of protecting Lily?

There is, Bscorp:

"And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?

"And I answer myself, perhaps they believed a still greater power could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort. . . perhaps they now pay allegiance to another . . . perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore?"


There is also the fact that young Regulus put two and two together. I think having some inkling Voldemort was out to defeat death would have helped with that.

EDIT: To put my post in context - it explains why it seems likely young DE!Snape had reason to believe killing Voldemort might not be as "simple" as saying "Avada Kedavra!" and meaing it.

This is a point I raised recently (though it might have been on another LS thread :hmm:) we know he let enough slp for a 17 year old to work out some of what he had done (although Regulus did realise how far Voldemort had taken his Horocrux making), we also know that Voldemort expected his DE's to try and find him, as some of them did - why would he have expected to find them when he was 'dead' unless he had told them enough not to believe he could be killed? It would also be a good way of keeping the discontents from trying to off you - after all if you can't be killed what's the point?

I find it hard to believe that Severus would have so easily believed Dumbledore when he said the Voldemort will be back, without some background knowledge to support that claim.

Ok. Thanks Zginius and Kittling ! I knew there was soemthing but couldn't rightly recall for myself (it's early here and I'm mulit-tasking at work )

So I do think that is something to consider. Snape on some level knew that Voldemort would be immortal and just killing him was not an option. So upon news of Lily's danger it seems his first instinct was to do what he could personally- by approaching Voldemort to ask for her life. Then -knowing this was not a good idea in the long run- Snape took the only the only other path he could and went to Dumbledore for help.

It seems almost any way you look at it, Snape's path was laid out for him as soon as he gave that prophecy to Voldemort.

I tend to agree. I have a problem with seeing anyone's moral compass as having an either / or existence. Morality is not as black and white as we might like it imagine at times. Morality is not, in my opinion, something one either has or does not have but a spectrum that ranges from someone being so good/pure that it is well neigh impossible to achieve to someone at the end who is too evil to amply explain in a simple & family friendly post - most of lie somewhere in the middle. To me membership of the DE dos not automatically or adequately describe a person's moral compass other that to say they are not at that end of the spectrum we all aspire to. :)

SIP's point about JKR talking about what he has seen not what he has done link well to Bellatrix's jibe to Severus about his always slithering out of action - of course it is just as possible that she was referring to his behaviour since Voldemort rose again, but to me there is an implication in her statement that stretches beyond those narrow confines and this links wth the recent posts by athy & SIP imo. :)

:tu::tu::tu::tu:

There are an awful lot of grays in life, and as I've said before, Snape lived his entire life in the middle of them.

Ok. Thanks Zginius and Kittling ! I knew there was soemthing but couldn't rightly recall for myself (it's early here and I'm mulit-tasking at work )

So I do think that is something to consider. Snape on some level knew that Voldemort would be immortal and just killing him was not an option. So upon news of Lily's danger it seems his first instinct was to do what he could personally- by approaching Voldemort to ask for her life. Then -knowing this was not a good idea in the long run- Snape took the only the only other path he could and went to Dumbledore for help.

It seems almost any way you look at it, Snape's path was laid out for him as soon as he gave that prophecy to Voldemort.

Right - so when Snape told Bellatrix he believed that Voldemort was dead and gone, he was lying. We know he was because Hagrid tells Harry in Book One, Chapter 4, that Voldemort will probably return:

"Harry, meanwhile, still had questions to ask, hundreds of them.

"But what happened to Vol--, sorry -- I mean, You-Know-Who?"

"Good question, Harry. Disappeared. Vanished. Same night he tried ter kill you. Makes yeh even more famous. That's the biggest myst'ry, see... he was gettin' more an' more powerful -- why'd he go?

"Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die. Some say he's still out there, bidin' his time, like, but I don' believe it. People who was on his side came back ter ours. Some of 'em came outta kinda trances. Don~ reckon they could've done if he was comin' back.

"Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers. Too weak to carry on. 'Cause somethin' about you finished him, Harry. There was somethin' goin' on that night he hadn't counted on -- I dunno what it was, no one does -- but somethin' about you stumped him, all right."

I'm not quite convinced, Cathy. If we're talking about the events of 1980-1, I presume that previously Severus had no problem about cold-blooded murder of Muggles and other Muggleborns besides Lily, while he was still a paid-up Death Eater. So, with that history, why would he baulk at murdering Voldemort, who had it in mind to murder Lily and her family? :hmm:

I believe his moral compass did begin to change after Lily's murder. Which I know is the position of the Snape fans on this forum, including myself. :relax: :)

I agree. There is no canon exactly what any Death Eater did. It is possible that none of them actually liked getting their hands dirty and murdering during the first war. But guess what, a lot of people were killed and the death mark left above their houses or the place where they'd been killed. Perhaps it was Bella alone that killed the 1000's of people - but even if that was the case, she had the assistence of all of her DE buddies - including Snape.

They are all guilty of murder, including Snape - and Regulus, either directly or via aiding and abetting, imo. So to me, this point is moot.

I'm feeling a bit of a Dunderhead for not having thought of this before! :blush:

Why should Severus Snape attempt to kill Voldemort in cold blood? That is murder. If he killed Voldemort whilst defending Lily then that would be self defence - or at least Lily-defence - but to just think "well he's going to target the woman I love so I'm going to kill him" is indefensible cold-blooded murder. What this tells me about Severus is that he wasn't a cold-blooded murderer, and that he did have some sense of right and wrong. What Severus did was go to the one man who could protect Lily and prevent her being killed. What would you do if the person you loved was targetted by a homicidal maniac? I know I would go to the police - in Snape's case this would have been the Ministry who I cannot see as being that helpful - and I think Snape would have come to that conclusion too - so he went to Dumbledore. Not attempting to kill Voldemort does not mean that he is a coward - Harry never attempted to kill Voldemort either - it shows that he knows right from wrong and that (to quote Terminator 2) "You can't just go around killing people."

Do you mean that Snape would prefer the cold blooded murder of Lily by Voldemort over committing the cold blooded murder of Voldemort himself, due to his morals? In other words, he would have Dumbledore protect Lily in particular (rather than kill Voldemort in cold blood) so that everyone's hands could remain clean, but meanwhile kick back and watch while the other DEs and Voldemort murdered everyone else - in cold blood? To me, that behavior would be morally lower on the scale of morality.

I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, the DEs were killing all these innocent people, yet no one should try to kill any of them because it would be morally wrong? Even the law doesn't support that view - equal force means you should kill the person trying to kill you or another and this was true in HP universe also because the Ministry authorized its Aurors to use the AK curse against the DEs and Voldemort.

If Snape's role was merely a spy and he balked at the idea of killing Voldemort because it would be 'cold blooded murder' - that only unscores his cowardliness to me. Further, I don't see his being able to readily kill Dumbledore either - also cold blooded murder, if justifying reasons don't play into his decisions in that regard. Clearly they do, imo, because he agreed to kill Dumbledore and he did not have a multitude of problems shooting off that AK either, which a person who never had before would likely have, imo. Imo, Snape was no Draco Malfoy.

I respect your view, but I would have to respectfully disagree. Snape was a Death Eater - a murderer either directly or through aiding and abetting - the latter proven in canon by his delivery of the prophecy, imo.

Do you mean that Snape would prefer the cold blooded murder of Lily by Voldemort over committing the cold blooded murder of Voldemort himself, due to his morals?

I seriously doubt there is anyone on this thread who thinks that Snape would prefer the cold-blooded murder of Lily over the cold-blooded murder of Voldemort. :whistle:

I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, the DEs were killing all these innocent people, yet no one should try to kill any of them because it would be morally wrong? Even the law doesn't support that view - equal force means you should kill the person trying to kill you or another and this was true in HP universe also because the Ministry authorized its Aurors to use the AK curse against the DEs and Voldemort.

I agree with this. Certainly in battle, Voldemort and the DEs are fair game.

(Where in the text does it say that the Ministry authorised the Aurors to use the AK? I don't remember that.)

If Snape's role was merely a spy and he balked at the idea of killing Voldemort because it would be 'cold blooded murder' - that only unscores his cowardliness to me.

In my view, Snape's 'cowardliness' is not something established by canon. ;) And this scenario is, of course, completely hypothetical. :cool:

Further, I don't see his being able to readily kill Dumbledore either - also cold blooded murder, if justifying reasons don't play into his decisions in that regard. Clearly they do, imo, because he agreed to kill Dumbledore and he did not have a multitude of problems shooting off that AK either, which a person who never had before would likely have, imo. Imo, Snape was no Draco Malfoy.

It seems very clear from DH that the 1998 Snape is deeply reluctant to kill anyone. Nor does he enjoy watching men and women die in front of him. He says so to Dumbledore.

This is quite different from the 1980 Snape, IMO (whatever he may or may not have done in Voldemort's service).

Last time we discussed Dumbledore's command to Snape that he kill him, we got in serious trouble with the mods, so I'd really rather not get into that. :whistle:

I mean, the DEs were killing all these innocent people, yet no one should try to kill any of them because it would be morally wrong? Even the law doesn't support that view - equal force means you should kill the person trying to kill you or another I am not completely up on the laws of the UK but I'm fairly certain that it is not as simple as this and that the term in UK law is "reasonable force" There is also the possibility of mistaken identity and someone being killed who is not actually trying to kill anyone. But this is besides the point because as I was at pains to point out in my original post if Severus had attacked Voldemort to kill him that would not have been in the defence of anyone. Certainly in the UK "He was planning to kill the woman I loved" would not be accepted as a defence.

My point was partly that Snape's mental process was not "Voldemort is going to kill Lily
so I'll kill him first." I do not consider this a bad thing.

I would also add that as a Slytherin Snape would be lookinng for the means by which he would most likely achieve his aim - keeping Lily alive. I don't think he would have taken long to weigh up the chances of him killing Voldemort against the chances of Dumbledore being able to protect Lily.


In my view, Snape's 'cowardliness' is not something established by canonAgreed! In fact canon says completely the oppostie. Canon says he was one of the bravest men Harry Potter knew. And he is not the only HP character to think Severus brave. IMO Snape's bravery is firmly established in canon as it is written in black and white in the books so how he can be "interpreted" in any other way is beyond me.

I am not completely up on the laws of the UK but I'm fairly certain that it is not as simple as this and that the term in UK law is "reasonable force"

Reasonable force = equal force when someone is attempting to kill you. You can legally attempt to kill them first. :lol:. No one expects you to use a water pistol against someone coming at you with a machine gun. The idea here though, was that Snape didn't (and probably couldn't) have to use an AK or anything confrontational - he was right in the dark lord's presence and poison could also work. I'm sure with all of his potions knowledge he could have come up with something.

it was partly that Snape's mental process was not "Voldemort is going to kill Lily so I'll kill him first." I do not consider this a bad thing.

Well we'd have to agree to disagree on this. It has nothing to do with whether he loved Lily or not, imo, but it would clearly be in defense of another's life if he killed Voldemort - not just Lily's life, but her entire family, and all of those muggles, muggleborns, Order members and others he was regularly murdering.

I do think it is a bit of a waste of time to consider why Snape didn't give it a go, because JKR couldn't have him or Voldemort die - the likely outcome. But I do think it was a plot hole that she didn't cover in the books and leaves Snape having behaved in a cowardly manner with respect to that particular scenario, imo.

I would also add that as a Slytherin Snape would be lookinng for the means by which he would most likely achieve his aim - keeping Lily alive. I don't think he would have taken long to weigh up the chances of him killing Voldemort against the chances of Dumbledore being able to protect Lily.

I meant do both... :lol:.

Agreed! In fact canon says completely the oppostie. Canon says he was one of the bravest men Harry Potter knew. And he is not the only HP character to think Severus brave. IMO Snape's bravery is firmly established in canon as it is written in black and white in the books so how he can be "interpreted" in any other way is beyond me.

I don't recall anyone else calling Snape brave - well except himself if one believes that 'don't call me coward' indicates he felt he was brave. Nonetheless, I wasn't speaking about a general characterization, because I am of the opinion that everyone has their brave and cowardly moments as written. I just felt this was one of Snape's cowardly moments, left to remain that way because JKR didn't explain it. He was the only person who was able to get close to Voldemort that wasn't loyal to him, imo. Regulus knew he could not kill him because of the horcrux, but he did give his life believing that it would take the dark lord out for good. And again, I am not characterizing Snape - some of the characters I like best, Harry, Lupin, Draco - all had dynamic moments of cowardliness in the series, imo, so it is no big deal to me. But my original post on this was to say that I felt it was a plot hole in Snape's case because JKR didn't even bother to explain any reasoning associated with his decision not to try.

The idea here though, was that Snape didn't (and probably couldn't) have to use an AK or anything confrontational - he was right in the dark lord's presence and poison could also work. I'm sure with all of his potions knowledge he could have come up with something.
Well if Snape had tried to poison him that would definitely be murder. I also think that this would not be as simple as you imply. We never see the DEs and Voldemort eating together - I'm not even sure we see them drinking together except at Spinner's End - so I don't see it as being that simple.

But I do think it was a plot hole that she didn't cover in the books and leaves Snape having behaved in a cowardly manner with respect to that particular scenario, imo.Well I'd disagree with this completely. Firstly I wouldn't say it was a plot hole as there is enough information that Voldemort expected his followers to know that he was in some way immortal, so I think that is reason enough for Snape not to attempt to kill him. I would also disagree that Snape not attmpting to kill Voldemort was cowardly. I really do not see how not attmepting to murder someone can be classed as cowardly.


I don't recall anyone else calling Snape brave Dumbledore did.

I think Dumbledore's words to Snape "I am fortunate I have you" is an indication that Dumbledore did think Snape was brave, seeing that Snape was spying on Voldemort for him and would kill him throwing away everything good. This action alone is more than brave IMO. Harry says it quite plainly. He calls Snape the Bravest man he ever knew, even though he knew Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin and heard of Lily and James, not to mention Moody and the other aurors. But it was not these people, but Snape who got that name.

Canon says and through the Hero of the whole series no less, that Snape was the bravest man.

I don't recall anyone else calling Snape brave -

I agree with the assement that Dumbledore certainly considered Snape brave- given his reaction to Snape makeing the choice to go back in GOF after he asked Snape if he would flee -Snape says, "I am no such coward." This is the context for Dumbledore's comment "I believe we sort too soon."

But any other character's POV of Snape is a moot point in this regard, because no one but Dumbledore and Harry knew of the extent of Snape's actions throughout the series.

(I believe, IIRC, Rowling also called Snape "very brave" in an interview, one of the few opinions she has of this character that I happened to agree with. )

Canon says and through the Hero of the whole series no less, that Snape was the bravest man.

Yes. This can not be mitigated.

I hold only one question, and it is one I must pose to the whole group.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

Please answer honestly. I, for one, was shocked when he did it, suspicious of his motives for doing it, and believed from the moment I re-read the scene that something was fishy about this apparent murder. So, I was fully prepared to give Snape the benefit of the doubt, and forgive him once the purpose was clear. Of course, I wasn't completely convinced that Dumbledore was really dead...

I hold only one question, and it is one I must pose to the whole group.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

Yes, totally.

That said I knew form the moment I put the book down that the death scene was not what it appeared to be and I firmly believed it was pre-planned, the argument Hagrid overheard if nothing else screamed 'set-up' to me.

I hold only one question, and it is one I must pose to the whole group.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

I don't think there is anything to forgive Snape for in this. :)

I don't know how many other Snape fans would agree with me, but after knowing about the Elder Wand and Dumbledore's reasons for asking Snape to kill him and thereby place himself in a position of everlasting suspicion from the WW and in short throwing away Snape's life completely and wholly, it is Snape who should forgive Dumbledore for asking him to do this.

Have I forgiven Dumbledore for doing this to Snape?

I think I have, only I feel Dumbledore should have told him that there was a chance Harry would survive the Killing Curse and that Snape was going to get killed for the Elder Wand, both things I think Dumbledore did not tell Snape. For both things, I think Dumbledore should ask Snape for forgiveness.

Dumbledore asked too much from Snape. Right from the time Snape said "Anything!" on the hill all those years ago, Dumbledore has only been asking, asking and asking.

He asked for Snape's loyalty, his spy work, his everything (to murder Dumbledore) and his life for Harry (the Elder Wand). And Snape gave. Everything Dumbledore asked him for IMO.

IWho here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

Foregiveness, like a pardon, is for the guilty. There was nothing to forgive. I was quite sure of this long before I picked up a copy of DH. :)

Now that I know the whole story, I'd pin a medal on the guy for it.

Naturally, this is just my opinion. :D

Have I forgiven Dumbledore for doing this to Snape?

:rotfl: Yes, that would be more the question I would be asking myself after DH.

He asked for Snape's loyalty, his spy work, his everything (to murder Dumbledore) and his life for Harry (the Elder Wand). And Snape gave. Everything Dumbledore asked him for IMO.

I do think he gave something back to Snape in return, and Snape valued it highly: his trust and a second chance. So, in light of what I see as Snape's take on the bargain - I've decided I have to forgive Albus as well.

I agree with the assement that Dumbledore certainly considered Snape brave- given his reaction to Snape makeing the choice to go back in GOF after he asked Snape if he would flee -Snape says, "I am no such coward." This is the context for Dumbledore's comment "I believe we sort too soon."

Well it is left to be inferred, imo, if the reader so wishes to do so. What I meant is that Dumbledore never stated it.

(I believe, IIRC, Rowling also called Snape "very brave" in an interview, one of the few opinions she has of this character that I happened to agree with. )

She did say that she felt he had acted bravely - but, it was an opinion. Perhaps in her mind he had, but she didn't share any acts of bravery by Snape on page to this degree, imo.

Yes. This can not be mitigated.

Harry mitigated it himself, he said "probably" - because otherwise, imo, it would have been a lie. Dumbledore didn't show more bravery? I would have to disagree. In my view, Moody, Sirius, Lupin, Harry, Ron, Cedric, Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Neville and James and Lily all showed more bravery than Snape in canon. So I would disagree with Harry if he had said the statement without the qualifier 'probably'.

I hold only one question, and it is one I must pose to the whole group.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

Have I forgiven Snape for doing it? No. Have I forgiven Dumbledore for asking him to do it? No. The whole plan was wrongful for Dumbledore to pose, imo. Snape was wrong in agreeing to it and further compounded his wrong by making a vow that entailed his having to do it or die. So no, both remain unforgiven for that bit of nefarious dealing, imo.

But what is forgiveness by a reader? My forgiveness only means that it is something that forever stains them, imo. However, it won't keep them from the after life - if Bella gets to go, everyone does. :lol:.

Foregiveness, like a pardon, is for the guilty. There was nothing to forgive.

Well when you put it like that I'd have to agree - There was nothing to forgive that why I didn't have a problem with him about it. :)

I hold only one question, and it is one I must pose to the whole group.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

I'm with, Zara on this and I don't feel there is anything to forgive.

Well it is left to be inferred, imo, if the reader so wishes to do so. What I meant is that Dumbledore never stated it.


Bscorp only cited part of the dialogue between Dumbledore and Snape. The full dialogue from DH, the Prince's Tale is:

'Karkaroff intends to flee if the mark burns.'
'Does he?' said Dumbledore softly, as Fleur delacour and Roger Davies came giggling in from the grounds. 'And are you tempted to join him?'
'No.' said Snape, his black eyes on Fleur and Roger's retreating figures.'I am no such coward.'
'No,' agreed Dumbledore.' You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know I think we Sort too soon...'

No,' agreed Dumbledore.' You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know I think we Sort too soon...'[/I][/B]

Agreed, but braver than Karkaroff for not slinking away, is not a reference to Snape's overall bravery, imo. I feel that Dumbledore would have made that same remark to many in the series. Hence, I do not feel he was saying Snape was brave in general, only in that instance. I don't go for "braver" in this context in any case, so I disagree with Dumbledore's statement on principle. Nonetheless, I refer to the above in terms of what I felt Dumbledore meant.

I have already said that I feel Snape exhibited bravery as well as cowardice. I am not trying to prove Snape was never brave or anything like that. I am just pointing out that he, like everyone else, could behave cowardly at times. I feel in the scenario I was speaking about, JKR left Snape looking like a coward for not attempting to kill Voldemort. It was cowardly for Snape to abuse his position of authority and bully the children and to me, he displayed the greatest act of cowardliness in the series when he attacked an unarmed Harry while escaping Hogwarts, in such a strong fashion. However, he also spied on Voldemort which at times called on bravery, imo. He showed courage in giving the memories that incriminated him and bravery in going to Dumbledore on the hill. But in not killing Voldemort...well that looks and smells like cowardice to me (although I have said I feel it may be a plot hole and I still feel that way).

I do think it is a bit of a waste of time to consider why Snape didn't give it a go, because JKR couldn't have him or Voldemort die - the likely outcome. But I do think it was a plot hole that she didn't cover in the books and leaves Snape having behaved in a cowardly manner with respect to that particular scenario, imo.

Well, I would totally dispute that it leaves Snape 'behaving in a cowardly manner' because the issue never arises at all, plotwise. :lol: :) To charge a literary character, a non-existent person, with 'cowardice', you'd have to set up a situation in which they were faced with the opportunity to be brave and deliberately ran away from that situation. That doesn't apply to Snape, since JKR never set up such a situation for him (re: Voldemort) in the first place!

nd again, I am not characterizing Snape - some of the characters I like best, Harry, Lupin, Draco - all had dynamic moments of cowardliness in the series, imo, so it is no big deal to me. But my original post on this was to say that I felt it was a plot hole in Snape's case because JKR didn't even bother to explain any reasoning associated with his decision not to try.

I agree about Draco and Lupin's moments of dynamic cowardice, but Harry??? :hmm: I might pose this in the Harry thread.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

Please answer honestly. I, for one, was shocked when he did it, suspicious of his motives for doing it, and believed from the moment I re-read the scene that something was fishy about this apparent murder. So, I was fully prepared to give Snape the benefit of the doubt, and forgive him once the purpose was clear. Of course, I wasn't completely convinced that Dumbledore was really dead...

I too thought it was a set-up job involving Dumbledore's permission, so, as the others have said, there was nothing to forgive. :relax:

(Not only was it easy for me to 'forgive' Snape, I wasn't that upset by Dumbledore's death to begin with. :whistle: He's never been a favourite character, although I don't dislike him.)

I don't think there is anything to forgive Snape for in this. :)

I don't know how many other Snape fans would agree with me, but after knowing about the Elder Wand and Dumbledore's reasons for asking Snape to kill him and thereby place himself in a position of everlasting suspicion from the WW and in short throwing away Snape's life completely and wholly, it is Snape who should forgive Dumbledore for asking him to do this.

Have I forgiven Dumbledore for doing this to Snape?

I think I have, only I feel Dumbledore should have told him that there was a chance Harry would survive the Killing Curse and that Snape was going to get killed for the Elder Wand, both things I think Dumbledore did not tell Snape. For both things, I think Dumbledore should ask Snape for forgiveness.

Dumbledore asked too much from Snape. Right from the time Snape said "Anything!" on the hill all those years ago, Dumbledore has only been asking, asking and asking.

He asked for Snape's loyalty, his spy work, his everything (to murder Dumbledore) and his life for Harry (the Elder Wand). And Snape gave. Everything Dumbledore asked him for IMO.

Dumbledore couldn't have told Snape that Harry would live. The whole reason Dumbledore entrusted this missions at all to SNAPE is because he knew Snape was the only Order member who'd be able to tell Harry he needs to die.

I mean, imagine Dumbledore telling Mrs. Weasley.. ;)

But then when Snape surprises Dumbledore and Albus discovers how much Snape really did care for Harry (because of Lily), I think Dumbledore refrained from giving Snape that final detail (that Harry possibly could survive) just in case Snape slipped and told this to Harry.

Harry had to walk to his death with no doubt that he would die or the whole sacrifice wouldn't work.

Some people may say it's a plot hole that Snape didn't try harder to get to Harry at the end of DH to tell him the information but I think it shows how hesitant Snape was in delivering the news to Harry that he would have to die.

Ironically, Dumbledore actually underestimated the goodness in Snape, imo, because I don't think Snape would have been able to just out and tell Harry he had to die. That was probably only possible by Snape passing Harry his memories on his death bed.

Some people may say it's a plot hole that Snape didn't try harder to get to Harry at the end of DH to tell him the information but I think it shows how hesitant Snape was in delivering the news to Harry that he would have to die.

That is a good point! I'd not thought of that possibility before. :cool:

Ironically, Dumbledore actually underestimated the goodness in Snape, imo, because I don't think Snape would have been able to just out and tell Harry he had to die. That was probably only possible by Snape passing Harry his memories on his death bed.

Yes, the memories were a shock -- of course -- but not half as brutal as Snape telling Harry face to face he had to die. :wow: :whistle:

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?
I thought it was a very brave thing to do and others have said there is nothing to forgive.

I have to admit that I read that page in HBP four times to make sure I hadn't missed anything before going on with the book. It was the biggest shock of the series for me. It did take me a day or so to figure out that it wasn't all that it seemed and worst of all no one else around me had finished the book! :grumble:

Perhaps the question should be have we forgiven Jo for what she did to Snape? - My answer would be - well I have to because she created him in the first place!

Ironically, Dumbledore actually underestimated the goodness in Snape, imo, because I don't think Snape would have been able to just out and tell Harry he had to die. That was probably only possible by Snape passing Harry his memories on his death bed.
Good point!

Perhaps the question should be have we forgiven Jo for what she did to Snape? -

Now that's a question! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

My answer would be - well I have to because she created him in the first place!

Yep, it's her prerogative as his creator. ;)

Well, I would totally dispute that it leaves Snape 'behaving in a cowardly manner' because the issue never arises at all, plotwise. :lol: :) To charge a literary character, a non-existent person, with 'cowardice', you'd have to set up a situation in which they were faced with the opportunity to be brave and deliberately ran away from that situation. That doesn't apply to Snape, since JKR never set up such a situation for him (re: Voldemort) in the first place!

Exactly my point. :lol:. It wasn't, but in my view, it should have been - it is a plot point that extends to Dumbledore as well - but it has been and likely should be discussed in the plot hole and inconsistencies thread.

I agree about Draco and Lupin's moments of dynamic cowardice, but Harry??? :hmm: I might pose this in the Harry thread.

Not worth it - I am just talking about shows of cowardice, i.e., not admitting to, or apologizing to Draco for his Sectumsempra error - not admitting he'd been using the notes from the HBP book, etc. It is no big deal because everyone does it from time to time - arrogance steps in and prevents him and everyone else from courageously doing certain things throughout.

I'm with everyone else who says there is nothing to forgive. Snape took a very distasteful task and gave Dumbledore some dignity as he died. He also saved Draco's soul by taking on the task Dumbledore set for him. At the end of HBP, I was stunned because I had always felt there was a whole lot more to Snape than we were being told and I kept thinking I had to be missing something. I was.

Taking a life should never be considered lightly, but IMO, there's a time and a place. Since I'm probably already on the OWL list for today that's all I"ll say.

I also firmly believe 2 things that come into play later.

1. Snape knew he wasn't going to make it thru the war. He knew one way or the other he was going to die. And IMO< he figured it would be by Voldemort's hand. At some point the truth was going to come to light, and as long as he had done what he set out to do, I think Snape was ok with that.

2. I don't see how in the world Snape could have gone to Harry and said, "Hey, BTW, Uh, Dumbledore says you have to die so Voldemort can die. Can you jump right on that?" Even if he had been as tactful as could be, I don't think there was any way Harry would have believed or trusted him. Because as far as Harry knew, Snape hated him and his whole family. He hated James for ending up with Lily (Among other things), he hated Lily because she deserted him, and he hated Harry because he was Harry. He gave the prophecy to Voldemort that lead to his parent's deaths. IMO, there wasn't a single speck of hope that Harry would have listened to Snape, not until Snape lay on his deathbed. Because at that point Snape had nothing left to hide. Harry had built up a whole lot of distrust for Snape, and it doesn't even matter if it was warranted or now. There is no way in Hades Harry would have listened to a single solitary thing he said. He gave Harry the information he needed when and how Harry could bring himself to believe it. Had he attempted to do so earlier, he would have run the risk of sending Harry careening off course and caused a royal disaster.

I thought it was a very brave thing to do and others have said there is nothing to forgive.

I have to admit that I read that page in HBP four times to make sure I hadn't missed anything before going on with the book. It was the biggest shock of the series for me. It did take me a day or so to figure out that it wasn't all that it seemed and worst of all no one else around me had finished the book! :grumble:

Perhaps the question should be have we forgiven Jo for what she did to Snape? - My answer would be - well I have to because she created him in the first place!

Yeah, that was tough to take. She always said "don't feel too sorry for Snape." But, now I can't help but feel very sorry for him. That must have been the worst kind of anguish, knowing you would have to kill the only person who supported you.

Yeah, that was tough to take. She always said "don't feel too sorry for Snape." But, now I can't help but feel very sorry for him. That must have been the worst kind of anguish, knowing you would have to kill the only person who supported you.

To me, the point was that Snape could have said no. Because he didn't, I don't fell any sympathy for him regarding his anguish over having to do it. I believed he felt anguish because he knew it was wrongful, despite Dumbledore asking him to (apart from his not wishing to kill Dumbledore based on their relationship) and also wrongful to cut the side deal with Narcissa in making the vow. I don't like the idea of excusing things merely because Dumbledore ordered or asked Snape to do it. Snape had a mind of his own and should have considered what things he was willing to do - which lines he was willing to cross, independent of what Dumbledore felt he should do, imo. When Dumbledore asked him to kill him, Snape did bring up concern for his soul and I don't understand why he was satisfied with Dumbledore telling him to basically figure the matter out for himself - after all, he wasn't asking him to consider murdering him for himself. I think Snape had already considered the matter and had come up with the answer that his soul would be harmed, hence, that is why he asked in the first place.

War requires sacrifices. And, you speak of risking one's soul. What about the consideration that Snape was just as interested in saving the soul of Draco as his own? And, The Greater Good! If it serves the side of good, would this "murder" not actually be a sacrifice, rather than a homocide?

I would also add that as a Slytherin Snape would be lookinng for the means by which he would most likely achieve his aim - keeping Lily alive. I don't think he would have taken long to weigh up the chances of him killing Voldemort against the chances of Dumbledore being able to protect Lily.
We know that Snape is logical, so let's look at this through "if-then" statements. If he tried to kill Voldemort and failed, he would be toast because Voldemort would Avada him or torture him to death. Then he couldn't help Lily. If he tried to kill Voldemort and succeeded somehow, the other loyal followers such as Bellatrix would kill or torture him - look what they did to the Longbottoms when trying to discover what happened to Voldemort. Either way, Snape would be gone and that wouldn't help Lily because if Voldemort survived - which was logically very likely - then she would also be toast.

So his only real hope was Dumbledore. And that was working until Peter turned traitor, which is why Snape forgave Dumbledore and decided to protect Harry all those years.


No,' agreed Dumbledore.' You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know I think we Sort too soon...'[/i][/b]
Agreed, but braver than Karkaroff for not slinking away, is not a reference to Snape's overall bravery, imo. I feel that Dumbledore would have made that same remark to many in the series. Hence, I do not feel he was saying Snape was brave in general, only in that instance. I don't go for "braver" in this context in any case, so I disagree with Dumbledore's statement on principle. Nonetheless, I refer to the above in terms of what I felt Dumbledore meant.

Dumbledore says it about other people because there are other brave people - Sirius for instance. He says that Sirius was brave. But we might ask the same question about him - why wasn't he out trying to kill Voldemort in OotP? What was he waiting for? Was it cowardly of Sirius to hide at Grimmauld Place? Let's recall that Snape was actually facing Voldemort on a regular basis, not Sirius, so who is braver? Personally, I don't think bravery can be quantitatively measured and that's why this is a slippery slope question. No one was forcefully going after Voldemort in OotP - not Dumbledore, Sirius, Snape, Harry or anyone. He was surrounded by followers. He was hiding. He was dangerous. And killing him was not the answer as Dumbledore knew because the horcruxes would still have been around. Then there was the Prophecy - only Harry could vanquish the Dark Lord. Not Dumbledore, Sirius, or Snape. And that's what happened.

As far as killing Dumbledore: Draco couldn't do it, and if Snape didn't do it, he would have died. He would have died too soon to help Harry with his memories, period. He couldn't have given those to him if he instantly died there on the Tower. And then what? Draco might not have gotten away. Harry would have done another Sectumsempra on him, and then Snape couldn't have healed him again. Draco might have died, and what then? Yes, Harry would still have had the Elder wand for overpowering Draco, but he wouldn't know to sacrifice himself without Snape's memories. Therefore, the horcrux would still be in Harry's head, and he still couldn't have killed Voldemort completely even with the Elder wand. That thing in his head had to go first, and that is why Snape's memories are crucial.

Some people may say it's a plot hole that Snape didn't try harder to get to Harry at the end of DH to tell him the information but I think it shows how hesitant Snape was in delivering the news to Harry that he would have to die.
Snape knew where Harry was up until the Silver Doe after Christmas. Then when Harry shows up at Hogwarts, Snape asks Prof. McGonagall if she has seen Harry. Then in the Shack he nearly begs Voldemort to let him go see Harry, just as Lucius begs to go find Draco. He begs just like a father to see Harry again - Voldemort even says "You sound just like Lucius."

I wish Harry had just done an Immobilus on everyone in the "Sacking of Severus Snape" and just had it out with Snape right there. To me that is the missed moment of the whole book - that is the point where they were still safe enough to be able to have that personal talk. It might not have got them anywhere, and Snape still might have "done a bunk" - I hate that joke :rolleyes: - but at least Harry would have given Snape the benefit of the doubt about why he was looking for him, and that might have made him more understanding in the Shack. As it is, he only figured Snape out after he died - a waste of a dramatic moment, in my opinion.

War requires sacrifices. And, you speak of risking one's soul. What about the consideration that Snape was just as interested in saving the soul of Draco as his own? And, The Greater Good! If it serves the side of good, would this "murder" not actually be a sacrifice, rather than a homocide?

Well I think it is just a matter of perspective. I respect your view, but I just see it distinctly. I don't buy into the idea of using any means for a greater good. So no, I don't see murder as a sacrifice merely because it is a means toward the end of the greater good, I see it as killing another person.

Well I think it is just a matter of perspective. I respect your view, but I just see it distinctly. I don't buy into the idea of using any means for a greater good. So no, I don't see murder as a sacrifice merely because it is a means toward the end of the greater good, I see it as killing another person.

But, ah . . . I thought you wrote a page back that killing Voldemort was a sacrifice Snape should have done for the greater good. Or did I misunderstand that? :whistle: Killing Voldemort for the greater good is justified, but not killing Dumbledore?

Dumbledore says it about other people because there are other brave people - Sirius for instance. He says that Sirius was brave. But we might ask the same question about him - why wasn't he out trying to kill Voldemort in OotP? What was he waiting for? Was it cowardly of Sirius to hide at Grimmauld Place? Let's recall that Snape was actually facing Voldemort on a regular basis, not Sirius, so who is braver? Personally, I don't think bravery can be quantitatively measured and that's why this is a slippery slope question. No one was forcefully going after Voldemort in OotP - not Dumbledore, Sirius, Snape, Harry or anyone. He was surrounded by followers. He was hiding. He was dangerous. And killing him was not the answer as Dumbledore knew because the horcruxes would still have been around. Then there was the Prophecy - only Harry could vanquish the Dark Lord. Not Dumbledore, Sirius, or Snape. And that's what happened.

Well Snape was right there in the nest with access to Voldemort - which separates him from the others. I don't think it is a plot hole that Snape did not try to murder him in the second war. I would imagine if he suggested it, Dumbledore would have told him to by no means attempt to kill the dark lord. Dumbledore didn't wish to tell him about the horcruxes, but I am sure he would make it clear that Snape was not to attempt it then - it would have been a pointless risk.

I think there is a question about it during the first war though - even prior to Snape going to Dumbledore. But it is just another unanswered question, imo.

As far as killing Dumbledore: Draco couldn't do it, and if Snape didn't do it, he would have died. He would have died too soon to help Harry with his memories, period. He couldn't have given those to him if he instantly died there on the Tower. And then what? Draco might not have gotten away. Harry would have done another Sectumsempra on him, and then Snape couldn't have healed him again. Draco might have died, and what then? Yes, Harry would still have had the Elder wand for overpowering Draco, but he wouldn't know to sacrifice himself without Snape's memories. Therefore, the horcrux would still be in Harry's head, and he still couldn't have killed Voldemort completely even with the Elder wand. That thing in his head had to go first, and that is why Snape's memories are crucial.

Well Dumbledore's portrait could tell Harry the message. The thing was, Voldemort or an Order member could have killed Snape at any time after he killed Dumbledore. So I would imagine that Dumbledore took that into account. :)

But, ah . . . I thought you wrote a page back that killing Voldemort was a sacrifice Snape should have done for the greater good. Or did I misunderstand that? :whistle: Killing Voldemort for the greater good is justified, but not killing Dumbledore?

Correct. The distinction is killing in immediate defense of others (i.e., countless muggles like Ted Tonks, and Muggleborns - and those being murdered daily at the Ministry; and Charity Burbage, etc. - these things were happening in the first war also.) Dumbledore's long term plan was the 'greater good' idea, and does not fall into that category, imo. So I do see them as distinct. While I agree with you that killing Voldemort would also be for the greater good, that justification wasn't necessary because he was enacting evil in the moment - whereas Dumbledore was presumably innocent. Snape (and Dumbledore) also planned to have Voldemort kill Harry (another innocent) - and it was wrong also, but not for the same reason (rather because they didn't bother to tell Harry until the last minute), however, this type of thinking on Snape's part (and Dumbledore's) was wrong to me.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

Snape was only carrying out one of the most difficult orders he's ever been given-- that's very brave and requires no forgiveness. I think the one I have to forgive is Dumbledore for even asking Snape to kill him in the first place-- and him I do forgive because even though it hurt Snape and all others who loved Dumbledore, it was very helpful to poor Draco and the war and well-thought-out.

Perhaps the question should be have we forgiven Jo for what she did to Snape? - My answer would be - well I have to because she created him in the first place!

:rotfl: I don't know if I've forgiven her! Just seeing that lonely kid!Snape just itching for a kindred spirit...ouch, JKR, ouch.


As for Snape killing Voldemort...well, he's a pretty smart guy. Considering the prophecy, the fact that Harry keeps escaping Voldemort, Voldemort's boasting about immortality, and Snape's Very Special and Incredibly Important Role as spy, I don't think he's going to be taking potshots at Voldemort and destroying the Order's chance at obtaining more information.

Snape was only carrying out one of the most difficult orders he's ever been given-- that's very brave and requires no forgiveness. I think the one I have to forgive is Dumbledore for even asking Snape to kill him in the first place-- and him I do forgive because even though it hurt Snape and all others who loved Dumbledore, it was very helpful to poor Draco and the war and well-thought-out.

But that is the issue isn't it? What was the "good reason" and how was Dumbledore's death "helpful to the war"? I don't feel he arranged his death to save Draco because as Dumbledore himself pointed out, there were other means of saving Draco.

This is the question that I frame in terms of Snape accepting the request by Dumbledore and later arranging for a hit on him through the vow. Snape had to figure out for himself if murder in this case was a valid exercise, imo. Leaving aside Dumbledore's talk about dying for a moment - he also inferred to Snape that the main reason for his asking him to kill him would not be his eventual death, but rather, Bella and Greyback having a go at him. So Snape knew that Dumbledore had something in the works other than merely being killed in bed. Saving Draco could be accomplished by hiding him and his mum - but what was the underlying important purpose? In my view, it was never revealed in canon, unless...see below.

We know some of the outcomes, the Elder Wand business and Snape's position being more secure - as well as Draco alive despite his failure. But in DH, Dumbledore was still telling Snape that he had to secure his position, so apparently, the killing didn't settle that issue for Dumbledore. I spoke about Draco above - which leaves the Elder Wand business. That was helpful to the war effort - but people left and right (Snape fans and not) claim that Dumbledore would never and did not plan to leave Snape holding the bag as the believed "master" of the Elder Wand. If that is true, then I see absolutely no purpose for Dumbledore's means of having himself killed. Thus I don't see how Snape could justify it in his mind. However, I am as always, open to suggestions. :lol:.

Who here feels that they have forgiven Severus Snape for killing our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?

I still haven't figured out the logic of that entire plot line, so I'd say it's more of a shake-my-head-in-disbelief kind of thing.

As for Snape not trying to kill Voldemort, I put it down to believing Voldemort's hype. I think the Death Eaters especially believed Voldemort when he went around bragging about how ultra-powerful he was, and that's why they-- including Snape-- joined up in the first place. Snape may not have seen an assassination attempt as a possibility.

I just don't think Snape was a killer, anymore than Draco was a killer. They didn't want to kill anyone.

In fact, the evidence is that Snape was a healer, the opposite of a killer. That's one reason I figured in HBP that the killing of Dumbledore was planned, because why would Snape "save" Dumbledore only to kill him later? Although at the time people thought that was a weak argument, DH shows for a fact that Snape never wanted Dumbledore to be cursed by the evil ring, and he didn't want to kill him at all. Or kill anyone at all, because he wasn't the killer type and he didn't want to destroy his own soul.

I just don't think Snape was a killer, anymore than Draco was a killer. They didn't want to kill anyone.

I agree, it was obvious they were both bending over backwards to avoid killing Dumbledore. I think the only reason Snape got so involved was to keep Draco safe, not because he actually wanted to be a part of what was happening.

And as for Draco, I think he was doing it because he felt like his father was falling out of favor with Voldemort. He felt like his family was in danger and wanted to keep them safe. I not got the idea that either of them really wanted to kill anyone.

Correct. The distinction is killing in immediate defense of others (i.e., countless muggles like Ted Tonks, and Muggleborns - and those being murdered daily at the Ministry; and Charity Burbage, etc. - these things were happening in the first war also.) Dumbledore's long term plan was the 'greater good' idea, and does not fall into that category, imo. So I do see them as distinct. While I agree with you that killing Voldemort would also be for the greater good, that justification wasn't necessary because he was enacting evil in the moment - whereas Dumbledore was presumably innocent. Snape (and Dumbledore) also planned to have Voldemort kill Harry (another innocent) - and it was wrong also, but not for the same reason (rather because they didn't bother to tell Harry until the last minute), however, this type of thinking on Snape's part (and Dumbledore's) was wrong to me.
But what you suggested - that Snape poison Voldemort - would not be in defense of anyone - it would be murder. Voldemort may have committed all kinds of evil acts but unless he was actually trying to kill someone killing him would still have been murder. So I cannot see why you consider it wrong for Snape to kill a dying man to save him a horrible death and save Draco from becoming a murderer, whereas it is okay for Snape to kill Voldemort by poisoning him.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
The distinction is killing in immediate defense of others (i.e., countless muggles like Ted Tonks, and Muggleborns - and those being murdered daily at the Ministry; and Charity Burbage, etc. - these things were happening in the first war also.) Dumbledore's long term plan was the 'greater good' idea, and does not fall into that category, imo. So I do see them as distinct. While I agree with you that killing Voldemort would also be for the greater good, that justification wasn't necessary because he was enacting evil in the moment - whereas Dumbledore was presumably innocent.

One of the definitive points is as you said is the immediate defence of yourself or others when it comes to justifiable force, the other involves using a parity of force (in the UK anyway). Given this Severus could hardly use the 'he was planning to kill person X' because if you catch someone planning a murder then parity of force would be using your brain & vocal cords, which means basically you go to the authorities. :) If you catch someone actually trying to kill someone then reasonable force might include deadly force but this is not the position Severus was in Voldemort was not killing Lily he was planning to do so so there was no immediate defence required. Admittedly he could have waited until Voldemort was actually trying to kill someone - but then he would hardly be able to use 'the reasonable defence' argument because he would have been coldly and calculatedly trying to catch him wrong doing when he could have gone to the authorities - in UK law at least that would be completely unacceptable. :)

I also have to say that I really struggle to understand the idea that attempting to murder someone = being brave, and not trying to kill someone = forwardness. To me the equation makes no sense but then maybe I am misunderstanding the case. :)

I wish Harry had just done an Immobilus on everyone in the "Sacking of Severus Snape" and just had it out with Snape right there. To me that is the missed moment of the whole book - that is the point where they were still safe enough to be able to have that personal talk. It might not have got them anywhere, and Snape still might have "done a bunk" - I hate that joke :rolleyes: - but at least Harry would have given Snape the benefit of the doubt about why he was looking for him, and that might have made him more understanding in the Shack. As it is, he only figured Snape out after he died - a waste of a dramatic moment, in my opinion.

I agree with this 100%. (I dislike the 'done a bunk' line too :grumble: )

Apart from the huge implausibility of Harry ever so conveniently turning up just as Snape was attacked by Nagini, I think this was a missed opportunity in terms of emotional catharsis and resolution.

The time and the place for revelation was when Harry broke into Hogwarts. As it was, I read DH waiting for the big verbal confrontation between Snape and Harry that never came. :lol:

I still think Severus would likely have died in the end :sigh: and also been prepared to do so -- once Harry found out the truth, how long would have it taken Voldemort to cotton onto the fact that his most trusted adviser was actually trying to help Potter? A furious Voldemort would have come after both Snape and Harry immediately.

The other big problem for me in the story is the sheer implausibility of the 'you must tell Harry he has to die' plot.

It should have been Dumbledore, not Snape, who told Harry he had to die, since it was Dumbledore engineering everything from the start.

To entrust Snape to do it beggars belief, really, when Harry hated Snape so much and believed he was on Voldemort's side ... how on earth could poor Harry have been expected to believe such a thing?

As it was, the memories convinced Harry because he knew they were genuine and therefore he realised this was a genuine message.

Ever so convenient for the plot ... but too late for Snape. :(

I don't want people to think I hate the last 50 pages of DH or anything though. :lol: Those final chapters are powerful and very readable!

But I think, in all honesty, the resolution of the Snape/Harry relationship could have been handled so much better. :cool:

JMO. :)

It should have been Dumbledore, not Snape, who told Harry he had to die, since it was Dumbledore engineering everything from the start. You know the more I think about it the more I think that Dumbledore was avoiding the responsibility here. It does seem a bit like he was saying to Snape - Harry's got to die and you've got to tell him 'cos I'll be dead - and you've got to kill me. Poor Severus indeed. Reminds me of "Dirty Harry" - any dirty job and he gets it. But he stands by his agreement to do anything even after so many years. He is such a hero! :sigh:

You know the more I think about it the more I think that Dumbledore was avoiding the responsibility here.

That's pretty much what I think. :cool: But I guess that belongs in the Dumbledore thread. :)

It does seem a bit like he was saying to Snape - Harry's got to die and you've got to tell him 'cos I'll be dead - and you've got to kill me. Poor Severus indeed. Reminds me of "Dirty Harry" - any dirty job and he gets it. But he stands by his agreement to do anything even after so many years. He is such a hero! :sigh:

I think it speaks to the extraordinary tenacity of his character. :cool:

Pearl- I do agree with a couple things you say about wanting that confrontation between Harry and Snape and how the whole issue could have been resolved better, but I do want to point out something.

Snape's death-- as in, the way he died, and the way Harry was right there with him-- is a very powerful and personal moment between the two. And Snape's last words really addressed and in some ways resolved the big problem they both needed to overcome: to see each other for who they were. Plus, now the tables were turned, and it was Snape in the position of helplessness, reaching out to Harry in a way, in contrast to all the moments Snape was (hiddenly) helping Harry. That scene, heartbreaking as it was, was IMO an adequate ending for the Snape-Harry interaction.

I agree with this 100%. (I dislike the 'done a bunk' line too :grumble: )

I wanna yell at McG whenever I read it (poor woman, not that she had any idea what was going on! :lol: ), but I think it is good writing. She would, at that point, positively loathe Snape.

Apart from the huge implausibility of Harry ever so conveniently turning up just as Snape was attacked by Nagini, I think this was a missed opportunity in terms of emotional catharsis and resolution.

I sort of felt that way (missed opportunity) the first time through, but the more I think about it, the less I still think so. If we'd had that moment for Snape, with Harry recognizing the effort and courage he displayed in DH, would we be quite as hung up on him? I think he'd still be a favorite characterfor me, but I think the way he died without any of that recognition and resolution, adds to his story. It also adds to the big "death" theme of DH, as well, because of course, in real life you don't always get that before you die.

The timing is somewhat fortuitous, I would agree, but not just of Harry showing up. Under different circumstances, we might expect that Snape would see Nagini in her bubble before Voldemort decides to kill him and thus have time to communicate with Harry before he is dying. It's all jumbled into a few hours because of the specific way it plays out - Harry's actions alert Voldemort to his danger while Harry is racing to Hogwarts to get the penultimate Horcrux, and everyone's moves are rapid as a result.

The logic behind everyone's actions in the circumstances Rowling set up, in my opinion, renders the outcome plausible. Harry and Co. go out to the Shack because the battle is terrible, the students are losing, and they know they are the only ones who can end it. Voldemort waits to summon Snape to his side to murder him until he sees the battle is being won by his side. Since both these decisions are dictated by the same events (the tide of the battle) it seems, to me anyway, reasonable that Harry is there when Snape dies.

To entrust Snape to do it beggars belief, really, when Harry hated Snape so much and believed he was on Voldemort's side ... how on earth could poor Harry have been expected to believe such a thing?

As it was, the memories convinced Harry because he knew they were genuine and therefore he realised this was a genuine message.

Haven't you answered your own question? Memories may also be produced by people who are not moments from death. I don't know whether Albus expected Snape would use memories to convince Harry or not, but he certainly knew that was an option.

I agree it made more sense for Albus to do it in one sense (it's HIS plan, HE is the one who has understood the meaning of Harry's connection to Voldemort) but of course for the character of Dumbledore, it makes sense for him to avoid it too. And there is a logic to Snape being the messenger as well. To the extent that he bears some responsibility for the deaths of the Potters, he bears some responsibility for Harry's condition as well. That soul bit would never have attached itself to Harry if Voldemort had not come after him and Lily.

The other big problem for me in the story is the sheer implausibility of the 'you must tell Harry he has to die' plot.

It should have been Dumbledore, not Snape, who told Harry he had to die, since it was Dumbledore engineering everything from the start.

To entrust Snape to do it beggars belief, really, when Harry hated Snape so much and believed he was on Voldemort's side ... how on earth could poor Harry have been expected to believe such a thing?

As it was, the memories convinced Harry because he knew they were genuine and therefore he realised this was a genuine message

This makes me wonder, what was Snape thinking about this assignment?

Why didn't he ask Dumbledore "Why me? And how me?"

How did Snape think he would pull it off?

Dumbledore didn't seem to trust the other Order members to help, but what about Snape? Why didn't Snape trust the other Order members? Why didn't he question Dumbledore about the advisability of severing all contact, and aid to and from, the Order?

One of the definitive points is as you said is the immediate defence of yourself or others when it comes to justifiable force, the other involves using a parity of force (in the UK anyway). Given this Severus could hardly use the 'he was planning to kill person X' because if you catch someone planning a murder then parity of force would be using your brain & vocal cords, which means basically you go to the authorities. :) If you catch someone actually trying to kill someone then reasonable force might include deadly force but this is not the position Severus was in Voldemort was not killing Lily he was planning to do so so there was no immediate defence required. Admittedly he could have waited until Voldemort was actually trying to kill someone - but then he would hardly be able to use 'the reasonable defence' argument because he would have been coldly and calculatedly trying to catch him wrong doing when he could have gone to the authorities - in UK law at least that would be completely unacceptable. :)

I also have to say that I really struggle to understand the idea that attempting to murder someone = being brave, and not trying to kill someone = forwardness. To me the equation makes no sense but then maybe I am misunderstanding the case. :)

Well first, we may be broaching this from two different viewpoints. I see Snape as a full blown Death Eater, as I see them all. To me, Snape had no foundation for being anything else. He exhibited blood prejudice, did not have any problem drawing blood against others, felt dark magic against others was 'just a laugh', and showed a bullying attitude toward others - all while young (OOTP DH). So I see him moving on to easily participate in the killings, tortures, etc., with all of the Death Eaters. Therefore, I believe that like other Death Eaters, he was bravely defying the law, killing muggles, muggleborns and Order members and wished to join Voldemort in ruling over whoever remained when they were finished.

So understand, killing Voldemort would not be any big deal at all for Snape, imo. It would merely entail making the attempt. It is possible that his fear arose out of the fact that Voldemort was bragging he was invincible - or simply fear of the big guy or whatever. Voldemort's threats sent some of his people into personal action (i.e., Regulus - knowing he couldn't kill Voldy) and sent others running for help (i.e. Snape - we don't know what he believed, but he hadn't figured out the horcruxes like Regulus we know from DH). So I would see Snape has having no problem killing Voldemort for moral reasons - and that is why his personal inaction strikes me as cowardly behavior. I don't see the reasoning you provided applying to Snape, but I respect your view. I am more inclined to see it as a plot hole as an alternative.

Harry mitigated it himself, he said "probably" - because otherwise, imo, it would have been a lie. Dumbledore didn't show more bravery? I would have to disagree. In my view, Moody, Sirius, Lupin, Harry, Ron, Cedric, Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Neville and James and Lily all showed more bravery than Snape in canon. So I would disagree with Harry if he had said the statement without the qualifier 'probably'.


The fact that Harry says "probably" does not mitigate the existence of Snape's bravery.

Your opinion about the other character's bravery is just that and obviously Harry named Snape for his own reasons. You can argue for your own opinion as to whether Snape is the "bravest" but not the fact that he is brave- in fact very brave. Saying that the word "probably" mitigates "brave" in this statement is like saying that the sentence; "It probably rained more than it ever has in the past year" mitigates the fact that things got very very wet.

You may disagree with the amount of rain that we'll get but - the fact that water is wet is not disputed. :)

Why didn't he ask Dumbledore "Why me? And how me?"

I think it is because he recognized his own responsibility in creating the situation.

How did Snape think he would pull it off?

I don't think he had any idea in the scene when Albus first asks it of him. He did not even agree to do it, in that scene. However, when he says as his final line of "The Prince's Tale", "Don't worry, Dumbledore, I have a plan", I think he has it all worked out.

Dumbledore didn't seem to trust the other Order members to help, but what about Snape? Why didn't Snape trust the other Order members? Why didn't he question Dumbledore about the advisability of severing all contact, and aid to and from, the Order?

I think we have debated this elsewhere (and perhaps elsewhere is where we should continue, but the Mods will let us know...I will try and make sure the connection to Snape is clear in my response :lol: ) but I see Albus as trying to manage the whole conflict. He's not abandoning the Order, he is expecting the Order to do its job after his death, led by such figures as Moody, Kingsley, and Arthur. As the Order in fact does - they protect Harry until he leaves on his quest, they particiapte in a resistance to Voldemort through the Potterwatch and by using their inside positions at the Ministry, and they hold themselves ready to fight Voldemort when the time comes. He expects Minerva to lead the teachers of Hogwarts in similar activities, on a separate track. (And I think she does. My, she picked the wrong career, if the Battle of Hogwarts was organized on the spur of the moment, she ought to have been a general!) And he has Harry, and Snape, operating on yet other tracks. It's not a matter of trusting or not trusting some people, helping or not helping some people, but leaving assorted courageous, committed, skilled persons to do what he thinks they are best able, willing, and equipped to do.

I think Snape accepts that his role is at the school and in the DE camp because it is hugely logical that this should be his role. It does not make sense to endanger that role by trying to play another one, one that is being played well by others. If he can help someone while staying in his role (as when he tried to save Lupin) he will, but contacting Moody or Kingsley to make suggestions to them about what the Order should do? Why?

The only time we see Snape object to this compartmentalization is when it concerns Harry. When he first realizes that Dumbledore has some sort of mission for Harry, probably a dangerous mission, he wants in. Which makes sense because at the time, he believes his primary mission is to protect Harry. It is this lone objection that leads to the scene in which Albus reveals that Harry "must" die.

So understand, killing Voldemort would not be any big deal at all for Snape, imo. It would merely entail making the attempt. It is possible that his fear arose out of the fact that Voldemort was bragging he was invincible - or simply fear of the big guy or whatever. Voldemort's threats sent some of his people into personal action (i.e., Regulus - knowing he couldn't kill Voldy) and sent others running for help (i.e. Snape - we don't know what he believed, but he hadn't figured out the horcruxes like Regulus we know from DH). So I would see Snape has having no problem killing Voldemort for moral reasons - and that is why his personal inaction strikes me as cowardly behavior. I don't see the reasoning you provided applying to Snape, but I respect your view. I am more inclined to see it as a plot hole as an alternative.

I don't see Snape's behaviour as cowardly. In my opinion, it was shrewd. We know the DE's knew that Voldemort had taken steps to avoid death, as Voldemort mentions this himself in GoF. I think it would have been completely reckless of Snape to attempt killing Voldemort and would probalby have achieved nothing. I think he knew this and took the only option that was viable.

I wanna yell at McG whenever I read it (poor woman, not that she had any idea what was going on! :lol: ), but I think it is good writing. She would, at that point, positively loathe Snape.

Oh, I agree it's good writing, and the line is typical of Minerva! Of course she hated Severus at that point.

I sort of felt that way (missed opportunity) the first time through, but the more I think about it, the less I still think so. If we'd had that moment for Snape, with Harry recognizing the effort and courage he displayed in DH, would we be quite as hung up on him? I think he'd still be a favorite character for me, but I think the way he died without any of that recognition and resolution, adds to his story. It also adds to the big "death" theme of DH, as well, because of course, in real life you don't always get that before you die.

Oh, yes, from a literary POV, Snape's tragedy is ... well, in a noble literary tradition. :tu:

The logic behind everyone's actions in the circumstances Rowling set up, in my opinion, renders the outcome plausible. Harry and Co. go out to the Shack because the battle is terrible, the students are losing, and they know they are the only ones who can end it. Voldemort waits to summon Snape to his side to murder him until he sees the battle is being won by his side. Since both these decisions are dictated by the same events (the tide of the battle) it seems, to me anyway, reasonable that Harry is there when Snape dies.

Well, you've convinced me. :lol: :) The 'implausibility' I mentioned is not actually a huge issue for me -- it certainly doesn't mar my enjoyment of the book (that chapter is very tense and exciting ... and shocking!)

Haven't you answered your own question? Memories may also be produced by people who are not moments from death. I don't know whether Albus expected Snape would use memories to convince Harry or not, but he certainly knew that was an option.

True enough.

I agree it made more sense for Albus to do it in one sense (it's HIS plan, HE is the one who has understood the meaning of Harry's connection to Voldemort) but of course for the character of Dumbledore, it makes sense for him to avoid it too. And there is a logic to Snape being the messenger as well. To the extent that he bears some responsibility for the deaths of the Potters, he bears some responsibility for Harry's condition as well. That soul bit would never have attached itself to Harry if Voldemort had not come after him and Lily.

Yes, indeed. There's a poetic resolution in all of that. :cool:

The fact that Harry says "probably" does not mitigate the observation of Snape's bravery.

Yes.

If JKR had wanted her readership to doubt Snape's bravery, she would have written the Epilogue in quite a different way, IMO. :whistle:

This makes me wonder, what was Snape thinking about this assignment?

Why didn't he ask Dumbledore "Why me? And how me?"

How did Snape think he would pull it off?

Dumbledore didn't seem to trust the other Order members to help, but what about Snape? Why didn't Snape trust the other Order members? Why didn't he question Dumbledore about the advisability of severing all contact, and aid to and from, the Order?


I have always thought that Dumbledore knew on a certain level that Harry needed to know the whole truth about the plan and about Snape before walking to his death- in order to make the right decision. Harry needed to know the whole truth about how that soul piece got into his head and he needed to know the whole truth about Snape. He needed to know some of Snape's history and of Snape's efforts for the cause. I always felt that Dumbledore wanted Harry to face his "death" with a clean conscious and forgiveness in his heart.

Nevermind how another OOP memeber would handle it, there is a reason DD chose Snape . We're forgetting who the ONE person is here that could Block out Voldemort. no Member of the order could have kept Voldemort from finding out if they had been captured or if they had let it slip to someone else.

2)Another thing we're forgetting is the necessary destruction of the other Horcruxes before Harry finds out.

It was Snape's job to let Harry know at the precise moment after Nagini goes into protection- which would only be after all the other Horcruxes are destroyed- and NO sooner.

Dumbledore knew by that time he told Snape what to do that he would not be alive when the rest of the Horcruxes are destroyed. SO it was Snape's job and no one else's.

This makes me wonder, what was Snape thinking about this assignment? Why didn't he ask Dumbledore "Why me? And how me?" How did Snape think he would pull it off?

Dumbledore didn't seem to trust the other Order members to help, but what about Snape? Why didn't Snape trust the other Order members? Why didn't he question Dumbledore about the advisability of severing all contact, and aid to and from, the Order?

From the perspective of the writing, Snape loathed Harry, so I see it as Snape relishing the opportunity to deliver the news, in his normal vindictive fashion. However, that doesn't mean that he wished innocents to die - canon provides he no longer felt that way, imo. Harry, however, was dying for the 'greater good', so Snape had every 'good side' justification for delivering the message, imo. For Snape, it would be like delivering such a message to James Potter, imo. Therefore, he'd not likely ever reach the question of 'why me' because he was open to the task. As for 'how me', he knew exactly how to do that - merely prove he was on the good side, which meant revealing some home truths to Harry about his mother and father and about his 'red herring' actions in DH.

The early memories showed a foundation for Snape's emotions for Lily and memory #5 showed Snape's intense jealousy for his dad, imo, and finally, the photo ripping scene showed that the intensity of both of those emotions were still in place and that his emotions for the dad extended to Harry as the representation of the Potter's love for one another, imo. The rest spoke to Snape as a good sider.

But why was Snape willing to do this, when he'd spent 6.5 years ademantly declaring that he would never do so? Well I have two reason that I believe apply. First, he'd lived with Wormtail and likely verified a few facts that were still shady in his mind about both Lily and James. Second, he would be making this confession to a dying lad - Harry - who would not be around to either relish in Snape's pain or show his disdain for Snape's shallowness, imo. The trade off though, was being able to deliver the death toll to Harry - the end of the Potter line and the end of Snape having to deal with seeing the reminder that Lily loved another, imo.

Why Dumbledore asked Snape - well I feel Dumbledore truly did love Harry and simply could not pass the message on himself - he indicated in OOTP that it was difficult for him to pass such messages to Harry. I feel he also likely felt Snape should do this thing. Dumbledore didn't hate James or Harry and would see Snape as having to face up to the truth in light of what he'd done to them and his emotions for Lily as good for Snape's soul, imo. I am sure Dumbledore understood that Snape would look at it in the manner above, but I think he believed that down the line, Snape would come to recognize that his viewpoint was skewed and wrong, and as such, eventually be able to find true remorse and repentance in this regard. JKR indicated that Snape loathed Harry to his death, so unfortunately it appears he didn't reach that point by the time he died, but if he'd lived, he may have, imo.