Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

I think we have debated this elsewhere (and perhaps elsewhere is where we should continue, but the Mods will let us know...I will try and make sure the connection to Snape is clear in my response :lol: ) but I see Albus as trying to manage the whole conflict. He's not abandoning the Order, he is expecting the Order to do its job after his death, led by such figures as Moody, Kingsley, and Arthur. As the Order in fact does - they protect Harry until he leaves on his quest, they particiapte in a resistance to Voldemort through the Potterwatch and by using their inside positions at the Ministry, and they hold themselves ready to fight Voldemort when the time comes. He expects Minerva to lead the teachers of Hogwarts in similar activities, on a separate track. (And I think she does. My, she picked the wrong career, if the Battle of Hogwarts was organized on the spur of the moment, she ought to have been a general!) And he has Harry, and Snape, operating on yet other tracks. It's not a matter of trusting or not trusting some people, helping or not helping some people, but leaving assorted courageous, committed, skilled persons to do what he thinks they are best able, willing, and equipped to do.

But how much of this does Snape know? It seems that he is asked to kill Dumbledore, which will eliminate the leader of the Order, but no arrangement is made for Snape to report to the new command. Why didn't Snape ask about this? Does he feel he is working for Dumbledore, not the Order? That would explain it somewhat, if he felt obligated to Dumbledore, but not to the Order. Snape seems to realize that Dumbledore isn't explaining any of this to the Order, but he never asks why.

I think Snape accepts that his role is at the school and in the DE camp because it is hugely logical that this should be his role. It does not make sense to endanger that role by trying to play another one, one that is being played well by others. If he can help someone while staying in his role (as when he tried to save Lupin) he will, but contacting Moody or Kingsley to make suggestions to them about what the Order should do? Why?

Snape is the best equiped for his role as agent in Voldemort's camp, but yes, why doesn't Snape find it odd that he shouldn't contact the Order? Why doesn't he find it odd that no arrangements were made so the new leader of the Order knew his assignment, and some way of making contact wasn't arranged?

The only time we see Snape object to this compartmentalization is when it concerns Harry. When he first realizes that Dumbledore has some sort of mission for Harry, probably a dangerous mission, he wants in. Which makes sense because at the time, he believes his primary mission is to protect Harry. It is this lone objection that leads to the scene in which Albus reveals that Harry "must" die.

Okay, Snape does object when the plan interferes with his own personal mission, but he still goes on to do what Dumbledore says, without ever questioning where the resistance fits into all this. I wonder what Snape's reasoning was. As I see it, he seems to be doing whatever Dumbledore directs him to, without too much in depth thinking to go with it.

The fact that Harry says "probably" does not mitigate the existence of Snape's bravery.

Your opinion about the other character's bravery is just that and obviously Harry named Snape for his own reasons. You can argue for your own opinion as to whether Snape is the "bravest" but not the fact that he is brave- in fact very brave. Saying that the word "probably" mitigates "brave" in this statement is like saying that the sentence; "It probably rained more than it ever has in the past year" mitigates the fact that things got very very wet.

I've never agrued that from day one. My point has always been that Harry was speaking off the cuff and had yet to consider his words. Imo, once he had, he would understand he was mistaken, because I feel he is wise and would realize that there is no such thing as "braver" or "bravest" in a comparative sense. But even if he didn't reach that point, I am sure that upon reflection, he would realize that people like Moody, and Dumbledore, Sirius and Lupin, Ron and Hermione, Luna and Neville...together with many others, made his qualification applicable and correct. That is my view. :)

If JKR had wanted her readership to doubt Snape's bravery, she would have written the Epilogue in quite a different way, IMO. :whistle:

I think the epilogue tells us that Harry thinks Snape is brave, and by proxy that Rowling does. It in no way tells me as a reader that Snape is brave. I think Snape's acts would have to demonstrate that. I did see occasional signs of bravery, but none that were more brave than those of many other characters in the books. I'm still not sure what made Harry think Snape was better than all others in the bravery department, or why he would name a child after him. The epilogue was more confusing than enlightening for me.

As for Snape not questioning the wisdom of cutting all contact with the Order, if I understand both Bscorp and WWB, you both feel (in different ways) that Snape believed that the Order's involvement with his assignment was unnecessary?

From the perspective of the writing, Snape loathed Harry, so I see it as Snape relishing the opportunity to deliver the news, in his normal vindictive fashion.

Snape may have intensely disliked Harry, even loathed him, but I see nothing in canon that indicates he would feel any pleasure in telling a 17 year old boy that he had to die. :no: This is in a whole different league to Snape still grumbling about Harry to Dumbledore in his sixth year and still doggedly setting Harry detentions for being cheeky. In fact, The Prince's Tale indicates the exact opposite of Snape 'relishing' the idea of Harry dying: quite to the contrary, he is horrified at how Dumbledore has approached this whole matter, in what seems to be quite a cold-blooded fashion.

The trade off though, was being able to deliver the death toll to Harry - the end of the Potter line and the end of Snape having to deal with seeing the reminder that Lily loved another, imo.

Although Snape's hatred of James is obvious, once again I don't think there is canon to substantiate this theory, i.e. that Snape would enjoy telling Harry he had to die.

Why Dumbledore asked Snape - well I feel Dumbledore truly did love Harry and simply could not pass the message on himself - he indicated in OOTP that it was difficult for him to pass such messages to Harry.

Goodness, if that were the case, I would find that an absolutely shocking act of cowardice on Dumbledore's part. :wow: Sorry, but that really is the way I feel. :blush:

I think the epilogue tells us that Harry thinks Snape is brave, and by proxy that Rowling does. It in no way tells me as a reader that Snape is brave. I think Snape's acts would have to demonstrate that. I did see occasional signs of bravery, but none that were more brave than those of many other characters in the books. I'm still not sure what made Harry think Snape was better than all others in the bravery department, or why he would name a child after him. The epilogue was more confusing than enlightening for me.

As for Snape not questioning the wisdom of cutting all contact with the Order, if I understand both Bscorp and WWB, you both feel (in different ways) that Snape believed that the Order's involvement with his assignment was unnecessary?

Well I don't think that Snape considered it deeply because he had pretty much left the details to Dumbledore. If the Order was to be involved, it would be in opposition to him, facially, so it wasn't an issue I felt he believed required explanation.

I felt the same way about Harry giving the middle name of Severus to his son. It is pretty much unheard of to name a child for someone who hates you, imo - and according to JKR, Harry knew Snape hated him. I've given up on trying to figure it.

Snape may have intensely disliked Harry, even loathed him, but I see nothing in canon that indicates he would feel any pleasure in telling a 17 year old boy that he had to die. :no: This is in a whole different league to Snape still grumbling about Harry to Dumbledore in his sixth year and still doggedly setting Harry detentions for being cheeky. In fact, The Prince's Tale indicates the exact opposite of Snape 'relishing' the idea of Harry dying: quite to the contrary, he is horrified at how Dumbledore has approached this whole matter, in what seems to be quite a cold-blooded fashion.

I guess I wasn't clear. I don't think Snape relished the death of innocents any more (I thought I added that, but if not, I meant to). I do feel though, that he relished being the one designated to deliver the news - not because he wished to see an innocent die, but because it would be "bad, devastating, horrendous" news and Harry would be distraught. But it was for the greater good - and Snape bought into that, imo, so it justified his feelings of vindictiveness, imo.

Although Snape's hatred of James is obvious, once again I don't think there is canon to substantiate this theory, i.e. that Snape would enjoy telling Harry he had to die.

I do. In my opinion, he enjoyed causing Harry pain immensely - I do not recall one instance where that was not the case. As late as HBP Snape set Harry to detention with the cards regarding his father and Sirius - right after Sirius' death. Do you feel that Snape believed that wouldn't cause Harry pain? Deserving detention is one thing, and making him miss Quidditch was fine - as would be sopping toilets or whatever. But to me, causing a child to relive in his mind the fact that he'd lost Sirius and his dad, the former most recently, over and over, was just cruel. But Snape's words at the time indicated that he enjoyed setting Harry to the task, in a vindictive manner. Here too Snape had an excuse (just as he would in delivering the message) - but it is only a message that a budding Death Eater needs to hear - someone like Draco. Harry was no killer and imo, Snape knew it; and he also knew that Harry was destined to die at Voldemort's hand in the not too distant future. None of that slowed him though, although he could use that as an excuse in his mind if he so desired, imo.

So I see no difference between that Snape and the one who would get the, to him, jolly job of delivering a message to Harry from the good side that he was going to have to die. I feel that Snape couldn't care less that he'd been a part of placing Harry in that position, just as I feel he hadn't cared that he'd been a part of placing James in that position when he was about behaving in a vindictive manner - that never seemed to be a factor for him, imo.

Imo, Snape fervently compartmentalized ideas - that is, on the one hand, he was becoming a better person ideologically, eschewing Voldemort's evils like blood prejudice and watching innocents die without lifting a finger, imo. On the other hand, he could behave in a cruel and bullying manner toward the children without winking an eye, imo. So to me he didn't see the latter as anything in the realm of evil, it was just daily business. I do see it as evil though, which sets my thinking apart from JKR's I believe (although she did say it was one of the worse things a person could do - but I don't feel she meant evil.)

Goodness, if that were the case, I would find that an absolutely shocking act of cowardice on Dumbledore's part. :wow: Sorry, but that really is the way I feel. :blush:

Indeed, me too - but in that particular area, he admitted he was cowardly. In OOTP he said that year after year he simply could not bring himself to do it.

I guess I wasn't clear. I don't think Snape relished the death of innocents any more (I thought I added that, but if not, I meant to). I do feel though, that he relished being the one designated to deliver the news - not because he wished to see an innocent die, but because it would be "bad, devastating, horrendous" news and Harry would be distraught. But it was for the greater good - and Snape bought into that, imo, so it justified his feelings of vindictiveness, imo.

Those reasons for Snape's motivation all sound rather contradictory to me. :hmm: We'll just have to disagree that Snape would have enjoyed telling Harry he had to die, since I don't see any indication in canon that would have been the case.

I do. In my opinion, he enjoyed causing Harry pain immensely - I do not recall one instance where that was not the case. As late as HBP Snape set Harry to detention with the cards regarding his father and Sirius - right after Sirius' death. Do you feel that Snape believed that wouldn't cause Harry pain? Deserving detention is one thing, and making him miss Quidditch was fine - as would be sopping toilets or whatever. But to me, causing a child to relive in his mind the fact that he'd lost Sirius and his dad, the former most recently, over and over, was just cruel. But Snape's words at the time indicated that he enjoyed setting Harry to the task, in a vindictive manner.

Oh, I agree it was cruel.

But telling the boy he has to die is just on another level. And I believe the canon points to Snape not relishing that at all.

Imo, Snape fervently compartmentalized ideas - that is, on the one hand, he was becoming a better person ideologically, eschewing Voldemort's evils like blood prejudice and watching innocents die without lifting a finger, imo. On the other hand, he could behave in a cruel and bullying manner toward the children without winking an eye, imo. So to me he didn't see the latter as anything in the realm of evil, it was just daily business. I do see it as evil though, which sets my thinking apart from JKR's I believe (although she did say it was one of the worse things a person could do - but I don't feel she meant evil.)

We are miles apart in our thinking here. :)

I had some pretty nasty teachers, who said very sarcastic things, just like Snape, and there is no way I would ever call their actions evil. Bullying children as a teacher is certainly a contemptible thing to do, but it is nowhere near truly evil acts like murder and genocide. To me it is a very strong word and therefore I don't use it lightly.

But telling the boy he has to die is just on another level. And I believe the canon points to Snape not relishing that at all.

Well I agree that it is a matter of interpretation. I do not read the canon in DH to indicate that Snape "looked shocked" because Harry had to die - he responded in a calm manner to that. Later he looked shocked at Dumbledore's behavior, imo and I feel that was pointed directly at Dumbledore. So yeah, we may interpret Snape distinctly in that regard.

To me, the proper response would have been for Snape to refuse Dumbledore's request to tell Harry. Imo, he knew he'd been partly responsible for making him an orphan, and to further have to be the one to deliver the message to him that he would die (just as he had delivered the prophecy that entailed his parents - namely Lily - dying) should have been beyond what any person with a smideon of reasonable sensibility would be willing to do - unless something else drew them to the task, imo. To me, Snape's ongoing loathing for Harry, based on his being the representation of his parents' love for one another, explains that.

...Some pretty nasty teachers, who said very sarcastic things, just like Snape, and there is no way I would ever call their actions evil. Bullying children as a teacher is certainly a contemptible thing to do, but it is nowhere near truly evil acts like murder and genocide. To me it is a very strong word and therefore I don't use it lightly.

Well I know I am in the clear minority on this - not just on this form, but likely in the western world. :lol:. That fact does not change my view though; I will never mitigate for people who bully children to the degree Snape did, because to me, some of his antics went way beyond the norm of your average nasty teacher and into the realm of abusive treatment - both psychologically and physically - comparable to the manner in which the Death Eaters behaved.

Well first, we may be broaching this from two different viewpoints. I see Snape as a full blown Death Eater, as I see them all. To me, Snape had no foundation for being anything else.
... So I would see Snape has having no problem killing Voldemort for moral reasons - and that is why his personal inaction strikes me as cowardly behavior. I don't see the reasoning you provided applying to Snape, but I respect your view. I am more inclined to see it as a plot hole as an alternative.
DH: Harry says: "Severus Snape wasn't yours. He was Dumbledore's..."

GoF: Dumbledore says: "He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

I think I'll take their words for what Snape was.

Anyway - Snape couldn't vanquish Voldemort with poison. What about the horcruxes? Even Regulus figured that out. Plus the Dark Lord drinks poison in GoF - who knows how long that's been going on? In HBP, when Tom Riddle comes to see Dumbledore, his whites of his eyes have a "permanently bloody look."

Snape's death-- as in, the way he died, and the way Harry was right there with him-- is a very powerful and personal moment between the two. And Snape's last words really addressed and in some ways resolved the big problem they both needed to overcome: to see each other for who they were. Plus, now the tables were turned, and it was Snape in the position of helplessness, reaching out to Harry in a way, in contrast to all the moments Snape was (hiddenly) helping Harry. That scene, heartbreaking as it was, was IMO an adequate ending for the Snape-Harry interaction.

:upset: I know - I just don't like it! :)

DH: Harry says: "Severus Snape wasn't yours. He was Dumbledore's..."

GoF: Dumbledore says: "He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

I think I'll take their words for what Snape was.

Anyway - Snape couldn't vanquish Voldemort with poison. What about the horcruxes? Even Regulus figured that out. Plus the Dark Lord drinks poison in GoF - who knows how long that's been going on? In HBP, when Tom Riddle comes to see Dumbledore, his whites of his eyes have a "permanently bloody look."

Well I appreciate those facts work for you - but they just don't work for me, so I see it as a gap in Snape's storyline - or else JKR was just showing another instance where Snape's vulnerable and insecure nature caused him to behave in a cowardly manner, imo.

But I don't think we see Snape the same way at all. You indicated you don't like the line 'he did a bunk' - but I found it ironically hilarious because it was a light version of Snape's own sarcasm. If he can dish it out, he has to be prepared to take it - and it wasn't said to his face, so it was just a humorous moment to me. The shampoo joke by the twins and his bat shaped exit through the window were all funny to me, and remniscent - if not as bad - as things Snape would say about others - to their faces. So I just look at Snape entirely differently and I suppose we would have to just agree to disagree on the above point and others...

My point has always been that Harry was speaking off the cuff and had yet to consider his words. Imo, once he had, he would understand he was mistaken, because I feel he is wise and would realize that there is no such thing as "braver" or "bravest" in a comparative sense.But Rowling wasn't! That epilogue was written years ago. If she has the hero saying Snape is "probably the bravest man I ever knew" then IMO it is ridiculous to suggest that the hero would have said something different if he had time to reflect. It was the last word on Snape from the hero Harry. There was nothing in the book (and it is a book with the characters controlled by the author) to suggest that this wasn't exactly what Harry felt. Still - if it makes you happy to believe that Harry didn't really mean it... :relax:

But Rowling wasn't! That epilogue was written years ago. If she has the hero saying Snape is "probably the bravest man I ever knew" then IMO it is ridiculous to suggest that the hero would have said something different if he had time to reflect. It was the last word on Snape from the hero Harry. There was nothing in the book (and it is a book with the characters controlled by the author) to suggest that this wasn't exactly what Harry felt. Still - if it makes you happy to believe that Harry didn't really mean it... :relax:

I'm interpreting the word "probably". That word does not mean certainly to me, but rather, uncertainty and since he was trying to convince his son that Slytherin was all right, and Snape was the only person he could use, he spoke off the cuff, imo. My interpretation is not based on being happy - I don't understand the naming anyway, so another point of confusion would not bother me. But I feel I understand this particular statement.

The other portion of my statement is my personal view. I don't believe in "bravest" or "braver" in this context, so I am copping Harry a break and assuming he will come around to seeing that that type of term is inapplicable. But that is my interpretation for myself alone. :lol:. JKR may never see that - in which case Harry wouldn't either, but I figure it is a possibility.

Well I appreciate those facts work for you - but they just don't work for me, so I see it as a gap in Snape's storyline - or else JKR was just showing another instance where Snape's vulnerable and insecure nature caused him to behave in a cowardly manner, imo.

In literature, either the text is there or not. You can dislike something, as I do about the "done a bunk" quote. But I don't dispute that McGonagall believed what she was saying - she thought Snape was running away.

What I don't really understand is when you say that actual quotes don't "work for you." So you aren't prepared to believe anything that Dumbledore says about Snape now? Harry eventually comes around to Dumbledore's way of thinking - that's how the book and the series ends.

It's not an optional version of the ending, in my opinion.

But I don't think we see Snape the same way at all. You indicated you don't like the line 'he did a bunk' - but I found it ironically hilarious because it was a light version of Snape's own sarcasm. If he can dish it out, he has to be prepared to take it - and it wasn't said to his face, so it was just a humorous moment to me. The shampoo joke by the twins and his bat shaped exit through the window were all funny to me, and remniscent - if not as bad - as things Snape would say about others - to their faces. So I just look at Snape entirely differently and I suppose we would have to just agree to disagree on the above point and others...

I don't doubt that you and many others enjoyed all that :lol: or that the characters didn't feel justified in making fun of Snape. Considering what happens to Snape later in the book and what we find out about him, it strikes me as very dark humor and also very cynical. Just my opinion. It's also sad that the last thing we hear from Fred is a shampoo joke - also rather darkly humorous on JKR's part.

Note: By the way, it's a "Snape-Shaped Hole" and he looks like a large bat while flying away. You know - like Batman, who isn't a coward either. :evil:

In literature, either the text is there or not. You can dislike something, as I do about the "done a bunk" quote. But I don't dispute that McGonagall believed what she was saying - she thought Snape was running away.

What I don't really understand is when you say that actual quotes don't "work for you." So you aren't prepared to believe anything that Dumbledore says about Snape now? Harry eventually comes around to Dumbledore's way of thinking - that's how the book and the series ends.

It's not an optional version of the ending, in my opinion.

Oh I feel the quotes work, I just don't feel that they apply to my point. Dumbledore's quote was made after Snape changed sides - Harry's long after that, when Snape was already dead. Prior to changing sides, Snape was a Death Eater and Voldemort his only master. That is the period I am referring to so I don't see how those quotes could possibly apply to his character at that time. My quote referred to Snape not attempting to kill Voldemort during the first war - and only the first war. I agree he could not attempt it during the second war.

As to the ending of the book - that was a different topic. I agree Harry felt Snape was not a Death Eater at that time and forgave him (his statement to Voldemort applies there). He also gave his second son the name of Severus for some reason I don't understand - but I have never indicated that my lack of understanding meant Harry had no reason. I just don't know what it was because he didn't say. He thought Snape was brave - and he knew Snape hated him, unfairly to the end - but that does not tell me much I'm afraid. Since the kid looked like his dad and had his mum's eyes, perhaps JKR was insinuating that Harry was honoring his parents in the naming of two people who had wronged their son, but meant well (imo) because his parents like him, were all about forgiveness, big time - that is what I orginally came up with, but I really don't know.

I don't doubt that you and many others enjoyed all that :lol: or that the characters didn't feel justified in making fun of Snape. Considering what happens to Snape later in the book and what we find out about him, it strikes me as very dark humor and also very cynical. Just my opinion. It's also sad that the last thing we hear from Fred is a shampoo joke - also rather darkly humorous on JKR's part.

Well that was my point - considering what Snape's bold move in taking the prophecy to Voldemort had rendered, I found his comparative statements about James and Harry to be disrespectful, degrading and highly inappropriate. So dark humor and cynical seemed a mild reimbursement, imo, especially considering that he didn't have to hear them and "feel".

Note: By the way, it's a "Snape-Shaped Hole" and he looks like a large bat while flying away. You know - like Batman, who isn't a coward either. :evil:

Ah yeah, well both statements were funny, but ran together in my mind. Batman couldn't fly on his own - do you mean superman? :lol:.

Ah yeah, well both statements were funny, but ran together in my mind. Batman couldn't fly on his own - do you mean superman? .

Sure - you can call Snape "Superman" if you want to. :rotfl: I don't mind.

But with the black cape I think he looks more like Batman.

Well I know I am in the clear minority on this - not just on this form, but likely in the western world. :lol:. That fact does not change my view though; I will never mitigate for people who bully children to the degree Snape did, because to me, some of his antics went way beyond the norm of your average nasty teacher and into the realm of abusive treatment - both psychologically and physically - comparable to the manner in which the Death Eaters behaved.

I don't deny that Snape could be abusive to some of his students.

Nor am I 'mitigating' his behaviour. :)

But for me it doesn't even begin to get near the level of real, actual torture that the Death Eaters, like the Carrows, inflicted. :cool:

Pearl- I do agree with a couple things you say about wanting that confrontation between Harry and Snape and how the whole issue could have been resolved better, but I do want to point out something.

Hey, Iggy! Sorry I missed responding to this earlier. :blush:

Snape's death-- as in, the way he died, and the way Harry was right there with him-- is a very powerful and personal moment between the two. And Snape's last words really addressed and in some ways resolved the big problem they both needed to overcome: to see each other for who they were. Plus, now the tables were turned, and it was Snape in the position of helplessness, reaching out to Harry in a way, in contrast to all the moments Snape was (hiddenly) helping Harry. That scene, heartbreaking as it was, was IMO an adequate ending for the Snape-Harry interaction.

I agree with you, Iggy, and that is pretty much the way I read and experienced the story when I read it the first time. It is tremendously moving, not least Snape's helplessness and agony as he lies dying and Harry -- being the extraordinarily compassionate kid that he is -- sort of 'reaching out' to him. :upset:

So that was my first reaction.

And then I read the reactions to DH of some fans on Live Journal. :yuhup: Who were a lot less positive about DH than me. :whistle:

But there is room for different interpretations, of course, that's what makes these discussions interesting. I like exploring the story from different angles. :)

I can, though, live with your interpretation (which was my first reading anyway). Definitely. :tu:

I always saw that as a plot hole too - when it comes to Snape, there seem to be a lot of them, imo. But there is no rationale under the sun that would cause Harry to move toward the dying Snape, imo. I don't think JKR could come up with one either which was why I feel she decided to do the whole 'he didn't know why' deal - because she didn't either. :lol:. This isn't a call for explanation because I am sure I've heard them all and nothing suffices to explain it, imo. So I guess I'll never understand that bit either...

As to the ending of the book - that was a different topic. I agree Harry felt Snape was not a Death Eater at that time and forgave him (his statement to Voldemort applies there). He also gave his second son the name of Severus for some reason I don't understand - but I have never indicated that my lack of understanding meant Harry had no reason. I just don't know what it was because he didn't say. He thought Snape was brave - and he knew Snape hated him, unfairly to the end - but that does not tell me much I'm afraid. Since the kid looked like his dad and had his mum's eyes, perhaps JKR was insinuating that Harry was honoring his parents in the naming of two people who had wronged their son, but meant well (imo) because his parents like him, were all about forgiveness, big time - that is what I orginally came up with, but I really don't know.

I always thought the reason for naming his son after Severus and Albus was quite clear. And to name the same after the two of them also made sense to me: one of them guided him through his task of finishing off Voldemort and the other looked after him all the while. I believe that a person who has helped you and saved you several times deserves a son named after him even if most of the times he behaved as an evil git. Why is Severus expected to be fond of Harry? We all know he did it for Lily, and not for Harry, he knew Lily would have wanted his son saved and kept safe (naturally) therefore he did it, and risked quite a lot doing it, nevertheless, I won't deny that he most probably disliked him: Lily's eyes looking at him with loathing from James's face...well, that must be tough:whistle:.

As for the "probably" in Harry's statement about Severus to his son: this can be interpreted as hesitancy, or could even be said that he just said it to calm his son though IMO that is a bit forced interpretation, but I tend to think that he said the "probably' because he knew quite a lot of very brave men, and a few extremely brave, therefore it is hard to pick 'the bravest'. It would also be fair to say that Albus was probably also the bravest, or Sirius was also the bravest, or Regulus, or Tonks for that matter. These people also have risked a lot, done a lot, sometimes faced death and died, sometimes walked straight into death. Yes, Severus was probably the bravest, probably, because there were many more whom could run for being 'the bravest'.

That fact does not change my view though; I will never mitigate for people who bully children to the degree Snape did, because to me, some of his antics went way beyond the norm of your average nasty teacher and into the realm of abusive treatment - both psychologically and physically - comparable to the manner in which the Death Eaters behaved.:no: I really cannot see how Snape's behaviour as a teacher can be compared to that of a Death Eater. I'm not even sure I would say Umbridge's behaviour as a teacher was as bad as a Death Eaters behaviour. I agree that Snape was abusive - but Death Eaters are a darn site more than abusive. They kill and torture. I would also question whether Snape actually was physically abusive. I certainly would expect more than a hearty shove and a whip from Bella!

I find it rather disturbung that anyone could equate these two things. Or to put it another way - Who would I rather my kids bumped into in a dark alley at night - Snape or a Death Eater - it would be Snape every time.

Furthermore we are actually shown what the school is like with Death Eaters working their. The kids suffer considerably more under the Death Eaters than they did at Snape's hands.

As for the "probably" in Harry's statement about Severus to his son: this can be interpreted as hesitancy, or could even be said that he just said it to calm his son though IMO that is a bit forced interpretation, but I tend to think that he said the "probably' because he knew quite a lot of very brave men, and a few extremely brave, therefore it is hard to pick 'the bravest'. It would also be fair to say that Albus was probably also the bravest, or Sirius was also the bravest, or Regulus, or Tonks for that matter. These people also have risked a lot, done a lot, sometimes faced death and died, sometimes walked straight into death. Yes, Severus was probably the bravest, probably, because there were many more whom could run for being 'the bravest'.

Well that was basically my interpretation also.

:no: I really cannot see how Snape's behaviour as a teacher can be compared to that of a Death Eater. I'm not even sure I would say Umbridge's behaviour as a teacher was as bad as a Death Eaters behaviour. I agree that Snape was abusive - but Death Eaters are a darn site more than abusive. They kill and torture.

Do you really believe I meant I felt Snape killed and tortured the kids? :lol: That is not all Death Eaters did. I was speaking about their verbal discourse and intent thereof.

I would also question whether Snape actually was physically abusive. I certainly would expect more than a hearty shove and a whip from Bella!

I respect your view, but I don't feel that does much to help Snape's case. I wouldn't expect a hearty shove and a whip from any professor. Those things were physically abusive, however, to me, Snape's verbal threats and negative words were equally damaging to the children.

Do you really believe I meant I felt Snape killed and tortured the kids? That is not all Death Eaters did. I was speaking about their verbal discourse and intent thereof.
Well you said Snape's behaviour as a teacher was comparable to that of a Death Eater - I pointed out that Death Eaters torture and kill people and therefore that I considered that Snape's behaviour as a teacher was not comparable to a Death Eater.

This is what you said :
That fact does not change my view though; I will never mitigate for people who bully children to the degree Snape did, because to me, some of his antics went way beyond the norm of your average nasty teacher and into the realm of abusive treatment - both psychologically and physically - comparable to the manner in which the Death Eaters behaved.

So it is there in black and white - You said Snape's antics are comparable to the manner in which Death Eaters behave. By this I thought you meant that Snape's behaviour was comparable to that of Death Eaters.

Death Eaters were not feared because they might make nasty comments or taunt you about a specific weakness; they were feared because they tortured and killed people. I don't recall any of the Order working urgently on an anti-sarcasm charm to repel cutting remarks. What made Death eaters evil was what they did; what made their words terrifying was that their threats were not empty and that they joked about the acts of evil they committed. As such I cannot say that I see any similarity between the sharp-tongued Professor Snape and the flippantly evil Death Eaters.


I respect your view, but I don't feel that does much to help Snape's case.Um I really don't know what you mean here. What do you mean by "Snape's case" I wasn't aware that he had a case to answer to! My point was that the only physical attacks we see Snape commit on school children are the shove when he yanks Harry out of the pensieve and the whip when Harry is attacking him. A Death Eater such as Bella would have done far worse so I do not see that Snape's behaviour as a teacher is in anyway comparable to the behaviour of a Death eater. I don't think anyone was denying that Snape was not a particularly nice teacher.

I respect your view, but I don't feel that does much to help Snape's case. I wouldn't expect a hearty shove and a whip from any professor. Those things were physically abusive, however, to me, Snape's verbal threats and negative words were equally damaging to the children

Harry uses his shield charm to shove Snape into a desk in HBP and then makes a joke about it. Is that better behavior? And later he lies to him and steals his book. And they both lash out when they get angry.

From the Bloomsbury Live Chat (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0730-bloomsbury-chat.html)

Barbara: I was very disappointed to see Harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did Harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain?

J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.
Harry's faults are primarily anger and occasional arrogance.
On this occasion, he is very angry and acts accordingly. He is also in an extreme situation, and attempting to defend somebody very good against a violent and murderous opponent.

(I don't actually agree with her there - I think Harry way-overreacted. He should have listened to Snape and not used an Unforgivable Curse. Maybe she forgot that all the "violent and muderous opponent" did was spit).

So there's JKR saying that both Snape and Harry are flawed, and both have bad tempers. That's no surprise to anyone who has read all the books, imo. She's also saying there are sometimes mitigating reasons why someone might lose their temper and lash out.

Harry got too personal when he looked into Snape's memories in the Pensieve in OotP, and Snape lost control. That only happened once out of seven books when they were having an argument. Every single character in the series loses control at one time or another, and that was Snape's angry moment.

I don't fault Snape for the "whip" at the end of HBP. While it may be understandable for Harry to pursue Snape and try Sectumsempra and Crucio on him, it's just as understandable in hindsight that Snape couldn't let Harry follow him.

Snape had a good reason to stay alive - so he could help Harry. I don't think that should be dismissed as irrelevant.

And a few minutes later after the supposedly dangerous "whip" spell from Snape, when Ginny tells Harry they need to go to the hospital wing, Harry says there is nothing wrong with him. Snape saved him from the DE's Crucio, and didn't hurt him with the whip spell.

To me, there is no lasting damage from whatever Snape said to Harry in class. Otherwise, there would be no such child named Albus Severus.

Now if Harry had named his daughter Dolores or his other son Barty, I could see your point. That would be weird. But speaking as a mother myself, most parents don't name their children for people who allegedly abused them. Harry must not think Snape was any worse than any other teacher at Hogwarts.

I always thought the reason for naming his son after Severus and Albus was quite clear. And to name the same after the two of them also made sense to me: one of them guided him through his task of finishing off Voldemort and the other looked after him all the while. I believe that a person who has helped you and saved you several times deserves a son named after him even if most of the times he behaved as an evil git. Why is Severus expected to be fond of Harry? We all know he did it for Lily, and not for Harry, he knew Lily would have wanted his son saved and kept safe (naturally) therefore he did it, and risked quite a lot doing it, nevertheless, I won't deny that he most probably disliked him: Lily's eyes looking at him with loathing from James's face...well, that must be tough:whistle:.

Well said. In the end he did what he had set out to do. He saved Harry and helped him defeat Voldemort. He did so at great risk to himself and never asked for anything in return other than Dumbledore not telling anyone he has begged for LIly's life. Which, IMO, means he didn't want people to know he had cared for her enough to turn on Voldemort. He didn't want anyone telling him what a good thing he had done by turning from the dark side if you will. And while I'm sure there would be some who will take Wick's line of thought that he was too ashamed of giving Voldemort the prophecy that he didn't want people to know what he'd done, I think most people would have been on the other side. Dumbeldore teaches that love is the greatest power of all, and it doesn't even matter how Snape loved Lily, either as a friend, as what might have been, or as a potential mate, allt hat matters is that he loved her and he loved her to his dying breath.

As for the "probably" in Harry's statement about Severus to his son: this can be interpreted as hesitancy, or could even be said that he just said it to calm his son though IMO that is a bit forced interpretation, but I tend to think that he said the "probably' because he knew quite a lot of very brave men, and a few extremely brave, therefore it is hard to pick 'the bravest'. It would also be fair to say that Albus was probably also the bravest, or Sirius was also the bravest, or Regulus, or Tonks for that matter. These people also have risked a lot, done a lot, sometimes faced death and died, sometimes walked straight into death. Yes, Severus was probably the bravest, probably, because there were many more whom could run for being 'the bravest'.



ITA :tu:

I don't fault Snape for the "whip" at the end of HBP. While it may be understandable for Harry to pursue Snape and try Sectumsempra and Crucio on him, it's just as understandable in hindsight that Snape couldn't let Harry follow him.

Snape had a good reason to stay alive - so he could help Harry. I don't think that should be dismissed as irrelevant.

And a few minutes later after the supposedly dangerous "whip" spell from Snape, when Ginny tells Harry they need to go to the hospital wing, Harry says there is nothing wrong with him. Snape saved him from the DE's Crucio, and didn't hurt him with the whip spell.

To me, there is no lasting damage from whatever Snape said to Harry in class. Otherwise, there would be no such child named Albus Severus.

Now if Harry had named his daughter Dolores or his other son Barty, I could see your point. That would be weird. But speaking as a mother myself, most parents don't name their children for people who allegedly abused them. Harry must not think Snape was any worse than any other teacher at Hogwarts.

I couldn't agree more.

Some of the responses in here are starting to toe the line on what is acceptable treatment to other members of the forums.

Respect each other and knock off the sarcasm, please. While you all have the right to voice your own opinions in this thread, you do not have the right to do so in a disparaging manner. Keep that in mind as you're posting.

Harry uses his shield charm to shove Snape into a desk in HBP and then makes a joke about it. Is that better behavior? And later he lies to him and steals his book. And they both lash out when they get angry.

I respect your view, but I don't really feel that a Harry's behavior can justify Snape's because Harry was a 16 year old student and Snape a 38 year old man. I was referring to Snape behaving in an abusive manner toward the kids. I felt he abused his position of power as a professor and I felt that at times, he went overboard. I respect the fact everyone won't agree - but that is my impression of the canon. I felt this was one aspect that he'd struggled with since a very young child that worsened through Hogwarts and during his stint as a Death Eater. I felt that he simply could not come to grips with ridding himself of this part of his character because it was so deeply ingrained. But if you see it distinctly, we can agree to disagree. :)

I don't fault Snape for the "whip" at the end of HBP. While it may be understandable for Harry to pursue Snape and try Sectumsempra and Crucio on him, it's just as understandable in hindsight that Snape couldn't let Harry follow him.

Snape had a good reason to stay alive - so he could help Harry. I don't think that should be dismissed as irrelevant.

Well again, I think it is just a matter of interpretation, and I respect your view. However, in my opinion, there would have been no need for Buckbeak to come along and claw and screech at Snape, if Snape hadn't meant Harry real harm. So in my judgment, I felt Snape should be faulted for his behavior in that scene, where I felt he he took his built up angst out on Harry.

I felt like during the course of the scene, Snape worked himself up into an acute state of anger, trying and failing to provoke Harry - and by the end, fulfilled Harry's continued opinion that he was behaving like a coward, by attacking an unarmed, less talented wizard child. That is how I read the scene and I didn't like it and there was nothing in DH that changed my mind about that. I totally understood that Snape would be upset over his earlier killing of Dumbledore, but I felt that Snape was wrong to take it out on Harry. There was no call for him to bring up Harry's dad, or make comparative statements about the Potter men, imo, other than to try to provoke Harry. But by then, Harry had a firm grip on his father as well as himself and it did not affect him by drawing him off of his train of thought (just as Voldemort could no longer affect him with that behavior in DH during the final battle with similar comments about his mother), imo, and I felt like that really got to Snape more than anything else - because he was unable to vent his anger and get a response, imo. So the upshot for me was Snape showing some of his worse behavior in the series, and I don't feel that what he'd had to do in anyway excused his behavior - mainly because he worked himself up, imo. Note that I feel Snape started off great, even helpful, but I felt his feelings of vindictiveness took over and his behavior went downhill from there.

Basically as our interpretations differ, we'd probably have to agree to disagree on this point as well. :lol:.

Which, IMO, means he didn't want people to know he had cared for her enough to turn on Voldemort. He didn't want anyone telling him what a good thing he had done by turning from the dark side if you will. And while I'm sure there would be some who will take Wick's line of thought that he was too ashamed of giving Voldemort the prophecy that he didn't want people to know what he'd done, I think most people would have been on the other side. Dumbeldore teaches that love is the greatest power of all, and it doesn't even matter how Snape loved Lily, either as a friend, as what might have been, or as a potential mate, allt hat matters is that he loved her and he loved her to his dying breath.

Well just to clarify, while I do think Snape would be too embarrassed to reveal why he turned to the good side if he were not a spy (mainly because he would not wish to face the disdain of people like Sirius - and he said himself he never wished Harry to know, because he was Potter's son) - I also agree that Snape could not make this public knowledge or he'd have no cover as a spy. :lol:. My only point was that Snape wouldn't have wished to reveal it anyway - I felt he said that himself in Dumbledore's office rather ademantly. He told Dumbledore never to tell anyone - especially Harry (DH).

I also am all for people being in love; James and Lily, Molly and Arthur, Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione and many others were in love. I fully support marriage and the love that goes with it - and parental love and the love kids have for their parents - as well as the love of friends and mankind in general. I do feel it is immensely important as Dumbledore indicated. However, I feel that it can be negative in some cases, like for Snape, Merope, Bella and to a lesser degree, Lavender - when it becomes imo, obsessive and serves as a basis for harming others or one's self.

I am not sure if Snape's form of love (and Bella's, Merope's and Lavenders) are supposed to be okay just because they are love - but I would disagree with that idea. I feel that Snape's form of love, like the others, moved beyond what is healthy and positive in light of the relationship he had with the person and the way it played out against others. I don't claim to know what the series intends to say about this or about about many things - like arrogance (see my avatar :lol: - I grew up with Justice League and Trek heroes like Kirk where this is a fictionally good thing). And in other cases I just don't understand the reasoning behind some of the ideas, like naming for those who loath you, etc.

I look at it as the series is revealing these ideas for us to ponder and reflect upon, rather than instructing us how to feel about them. Snape happens to be a character where many of those views are highlighted, imo. My take may be contrary to some, but I don't think that is a bad thing, it is just another viewpoint. I respect everyone else's opinion also, I just don't buy into Snape's form of love myself (or Bella's, Merope's or Lav Lav's), or the naming - and I think arrogance is great in the face of the bad guys or enemies, unless it rises to the level of a socially odd Lockheart, lol. But people's heads needn't shrink in the main if they remain socially cool in fiction. So these are just somethings I have to agree to disagree on with other readers, as I feel that they are all opinion issues and opinion varies.

But my analysis of how a character feels is distinct from what I felt was possible in canon. Like in my above example, Snape revealing the truth about his changing sides to the public at large would have been a catastrophe as it would ruin his spy career - even if I feel he would have made that same decision if that were not the case.

But how much of this does Snape know? It seems that he is asked to kill Dumbledore, which will eliminate the leader of the Order, but no arrangement is made for Snape to report to the new command. Why didn't Snape ask about this? Does he feel he is working for Dumbledore, not the Order? That would explain it somewhat, if he felt obligated to Dumbledore, but not to the Order. Snape seems to realize that Dumbledore isn't explaining any of this to the Order, but he never asks why.

I don't think Dumbledore intended for a new command to take the place of the old one, for Snape to report. No one even knew Snape was on their side, except a portrait Dumbledore and after Snape's death, Harry.

There was no order and therefore there was no one to take command and organise a resistance IMO.

Snape is the best equiped for his role as agent in Voldemort's camp, but yes, why doesn't Snape find it odd that he shouldn't contact the Order? Why doesn't he find it odd that no arrangements were made so the new leader of the Order knew his assignment, and some way of making contact wasn't arranged?

Because Dumbledore had ruled that no one in the Order know of Snape's true loyalties IMO. Not even McGonagall knew, and I think Dumbledore felt this was the only way Snape's place with Voldemort would be safe.

Okay, Snape does object when the plan interferes with his own personal mission, but he still goes on to do what Dumbledore says, without ever questioning where the resistance fits into all this. I wonder what Snape's reasoning was. As I see it, he seems to be doing whatever Dumbledore directs him to, without too much in depth thinking to go with it.

I think this is because Snape sees Dumbledore's objective as very similar to his, which is the defeat of Voldemort (which is what all the Order members except Peter joined up for in both the wars) and, ensuring Harry's survival. He objects when Dumbledore's plan seem to call for Harry's death, but agrees in the end, because there was no other way around it and probably like Dumbledore, also believing that Harry when he comes to know that he has been kept alive at a great cost (the cost of all lives lost every day Harry lived) would be shattered IMO.

Indeed, me too - but in that particular area, he admitted he was cowardly. In OOTP he said that year after year he simply could not bring himself to do it.

I respectfully disagree. I think Dumbledore would have told Harry, if he needed to. Only, I think Harry needed to be given the message at a particular point, which Snape had to do, for only he would know when that message needed to be passed on to Harry. That would be when Nagini was encased in a protective spell IMO.

I don't think Dumbledore intended for a new command to take the place of the old one, for Snape to report. No one even knew Snape was on their side, except a portrait Dumbledore and after Snape's death, Harry.

There was no order and therefore there was no one to take command and organise a resistance IMO.

Snape knew ahead of time that Dumbledore was going to die, so he knew ahead of time that there should have been an arrangement for smooth tranfer of power. Snape was part of what caused the disorder. Why was he okay with this?

Because Dumbledore had ruled that no one in the Order know of Snape's true loyalties IMO. Not even McGonagall knew, and I think Dumbledore felt this was the only way Snape's place with Voldemort would be safe.

I think this is because Snape sees Dumbledore's objective as very similar to his, which is the defeat of Voldemort (which is what all the Order members except Peter joined up for in both the wars) and, ensuring Harry's survival. He objects when Dumbledore's plan seem to call for Harry's death, but agrees in the end, because there was no other way around it and probably like Dumbledore, also believing that Harry when he comes to know that he has been kept alive at a great cost (the cost of all lives lost every day Harry lived) would be shattered IMO.

Why do you think Snape felt the Order was extraneous to the cause, though? They all signed on to fight Voldemort, as you point out, but Snape apparently doesn't feel they are contributing to the cause. Now, I can see him following Dumbledore's orders because "Dumbledore said so" (a common mantra for many characters), and I can see him not wanting to explain to anyone else in the Order why Dumbledore had trusted him, but I don't understand why he felt no obligation to the organization that he voluntarily (I presume) joined. I think the Order should reasonably expect to fight against Voldemort without having their plans thwarted and lives endangered by someone who was supposed to be on their side. Snape takes a different view, though, and I'm trying to figure out how deeply he considered this, and what his reasoning was. Did he feel that the Order's efforts were pointless?

My understanding is that once Severus killed Dumbledore his job for the order would change dramatically.

Dumbledore had set Harry, Hermione & Ron on a quest to hunt down and destroy the Horucrux's. Severus was given the job of giving them information & equipment (the sword) when they were needed - his main job however was to stay near Voldemort so that he would know when it was time to give Harry that last piece of information (that he had to die).

The Order were left to carry on fighting Voldomort in the same manner they always had so that he would suspect that the trio were about to destroy him.

This is, to my mind, how Dumbledore planned it, with as no-one knowing the whole truth. I do not see how Severus was wrong in no letting the new leader know, either before or after the event, what his true role would be - he knew he was going to be cut lose because his task demanded it - that's always been my take on it anyway.

The issue of what Snape would have wanted is moot in my opinion. Ironically, to do what he did for the Order and for Harry- He could not afford to be appear trustworthy by the Order. He had a special role laid out for him from very early on. Double agents don't have the luxury of teammates. For Harry, Snape was a kind of elite guard who took on the most dangerous task and aligned himself right next to Voldemort. His ultimate task was centered around Harry- Harry was the one who would vanquish Voldemort.

The Order had the larger task of fight the DE and protecting the wider public- which of course Snape could not be seen doing if he was to really be "the most trusted" by Voldemort. He could not appear to be trusted by the Order or Voldy would simply have Snape march the OOP into a trap. Voldemort could just say, "Congratulations Snape- you're now the leader of the Order- now go and give them all to me."

And also - remember again that we're talking about A villain- Voldemort - who can read people's minds at will and can and will go to any means to get what he wants. Snape could not be seen by any one to be aligned with the Order or something would have gotten back to to Voldemort and the DE. The whole state —private and public — was under the tyranny of the DE and Voldemort. There were no safe spots and no really "safe" people. Anyone could have been captured and tortured at any time for information. And NO ONE had the Occlumency powers that Snape did. If someone in the Order were captured and interrogated by Voldemort- Snape's position would have been comprimised and that was a risk Dumbledore could not take.

Why do you think Snape felt the Order was extraneous to the cause, though? They all signed on to fight Voldemort, as you point out, but Snape apparently doesn't feel they are contributing to the cause. Now, I can see him following Dumbledore's orders because "Dumbledore said so" (a common mantra for many characters), and I can see him not wanting to explain to anyone else in the Order why Dumbledore had trusted him, but I don't understand why he felt no obligation to the organization that he voluntarily (I presume) joined. I think the Order should reasonably expect to fight against Voldemort without having their plans thwarted and lives endangered by someone who was supposed to be on their side. Snape takes a different view, though, and I'm trying to figure out how deeply he considered this, and what his reasoning was. Did he feel that the Order's efforts were pointless?

In my opinion, Snape did see an obligation to the Order. He was still following Dumbledore's orders even after death when he planted the idea of the Seven Potters with Mundungus Fletcher so he would pass it along to the Order. And that is the plan that probably saved Harry's life right at the beginning of Deathly Hallows. Then Snape also saved Lupin and George as they were flying along. To my mind, that was the last big exercise by the Order before they lost Grimmauld Place and each had to go underground and hide.

I'm not quite sure why any Order members would believe that Snape meant well in killing Dumbledore, anymore than Harry does, although Dumbledore certainly tried to convince Harry to trust Snape. In my opinion, Snape was in a singular and Above Top Secret sort of mission, which for better or worse was part of Dumbledore's plan. The rest of the Order couldn't help him with it, and knowing about it would have just put more people in danger and Snape at risk of exposure to Voldemort. That's the way I see it, anyway.

ETA: Bscorp! We wrote nearly the same thing at the same time, ha. :lol:

Why do you think Snape felt the Order was extraneous to the cause, though? They all signed on to fight Voldemort, as you point out, but Snape apparently doesn't feel they are contributing to the cause.

The Order are extraneous to the cause of defeating Voldemort, yes. And Snape, by the time of DH, knows it. He knows nothing the Order does will defeat Voldemort while Harry is still alive. He knows Harry is working on something that he can help with (as he does when he gets the Sword to Harry).

This does not mean the Order's activities are pointless. They doubtless saved lives with the spells they cast, and encouraged others to cast, on the homes of Muggle neighbors, for example. Excellent, brave, generous,m worthwhile activities for which they had no need of Snape's services. I'm sure Snape appreciated that. Just as, for example, Snape's protection of students was not pointless.

The Order are extraneous to the cause of defeating Voldemort, yes. And Snape, by the time of DH, knows it. He knows nothing the Order does will defeat Voldemort while Harry is still alive. He knows Harry is working on something that he can help with (as he does when he gets the Sword to Harry).

This does not mean the Order's activities are pointless. They doubtless saved lives with the spells they cast, and encouraged others to cast, on the homes of Muggle neighbors, for example. Excellent, brave, generous,m worthwhile activities for which they had no need of Snape's services. I'm sure Snape appreciated that. Just as, for example, Snape's protection of students was not pointless.

This actually sounds like it could be a plausible viewpoint of Snape's that explains his actions. I'm taking this one away to think on it some more. :)

In my opinion, Snape did see an obligation to the Order. He was still following Dumbledore's orders even after death when he planted the idea of the Seven Potters with Mundungus Fletcher so he would pass it along to the Order. And that is the plan that probably saved Harry's life right at the beginning of Deathly Hallows. Then Snape also saved Lupin and George as they were flying along. To my mind, that was the last big exercise by the Order before they lost Grimmauld Place and each had to go underground and hide.

Snape betrayed them in the first place, so he can't claim credit for saving Harry or anyone else. He didn't save Lupin or George in any case, at least not that I can see in canon. He was trying to save Lupin, who he's endangered in the first place, and took George's ear off by accident. I'm not particularly mad at Snape for George's ear, because he was trying to help, but it doesn't get around his betrayal in the first place, which lead to the murder of Alistor Moody.

I'll just add that by the end of Deathly Hallows, lots of Order Members had unfortunately died, either during the Seven Potters plot like Moody, or killed later like Ted Tonks, or at the Battle of Hogwarts like Lupin, Nymphadora, and Fred. The action narrows down to what Harry has to do one on one, and that is foreshadowed in HBP when Harry learns about the horcruxes and thinks about stepping into the "arena" alone with Voldemort.

Harry wouldn't tell Scrimgeour or Bill Weasley anything about his own quest for the horcruxes, and that's very much like Snape also being Dumbledore's Man and keeping secrets from the Order for their own good. Lupin tried to go along with the Trio on their search, but that wouldn't have worked either.

Dumbledore knew that the final battle wouldn't be between the Order and Voldemort, but Harry and Voldemort. Snape almost survived to see the end, but Voldemort's longing for the Elder Wand is what ended his life. Harry understood Snape's full role only after his death.

Harry wouldn't tell Scrimgeour or Bill Weasley anything about his own quest for the horcruxes, and that's very much like Snape also being Dumbledore's Man and keeping secrets from the Order for their own good. Lupin tried to go along with the Trio on their search, but that wouldn't have worked either.

Much of DH is taken up with Harry's struggle with Dumbledore's final plan, and what the proper course of action is. Does one do it because "Dumbledore said so," or strike out on one's own new plan of action, or, as Harry finally decides in the end, "Because Dumbledore says so and I think it's a good idea, too." We don't get to see Snape's struggle with this question, though, if he even did, so it is a lot harder to know what Snape was thinking.

Dumbledore knew that the final battle wouldn't be between the Order and Voldemort, but Harry and Voldemort. Snape almost survived to see the end, but Voldemort's longing for the Elder Wand is what ended his life. Harry understood Snape's full role only after his death.

I don't think Dumbledore shared his guesses about the final battle with Snape, though. Snape is told that he needs to deliver a message, and Harry must die. As far as Snape knows, Voldemort is still alive after this, and still needs killing, but he should be mortal (Dumbledore does not tell Snape that the snake will still need eliminating).

I don't think Dumbledore shared his guesses about the final battle with Snape, though. Snape is told that he needs to deviver a message, and Harry must die. As far as Snape knows, Voldemort is still alive after this, and still needs killing, but he should be mortal (Dumbledore does not tell Snape that the snake will still need eliminating).

Dumbledore does not know that the snake will need eliminating after Harry's death. What he tells Snape is that in his opinion, Harry will have arranged matters so that when Harry is killed by Voldemort, Voldemort will be mortal again.

Much of DH is taken up with Harry's struggle with Dumbledore's final plan, and what the proper course of action is. Does one do it because "Dumbledore said so," or strike out on one's own new plan of action, or, as Harry finally decides in the end, "Because Dumbledore says so and I think it's a good idea, too." We don't get to see Snape's struggle with this question, though, if he even did, so it is a lot harder to know what Snape was thinking.

I don't find it so. We have plenty of evidence from several of the books that when Snape has a difference of opinion with Albus, he voices it, and acts independently. Examples range from dealing with Harry as a teacher, to his dissatisfaction with Lupin's hiring, to his second thoughts about Albus's plan in HBP.

I would need evidence that Snape had changed somehow, to conclude anything other than that Snape's actions at the end of HBP and DH were taken because he saw them as the right thing to do.

Therefore, I think Snape had exactly some of the same struggles as Harry did, with one major difference. I don't think Snape spent much time worrying that Albus has never loved him, I don't think it was an expectation he ever had of Albus.

Dumbledore does not know that the snake will need eliminating after Harry's death. What he tells Snape is that in his opinion, Harry will have arranged matters so that when Harry is killed by Voldemort, Voldemort will be mortal again.

Okay, I do see the difference you are pointing out. Dumbledore must have picked this timing mechanism not because the Horcruxes are eliminated, but because Voldemort is now indicating that he is aware that the Horcruxes are being eliminated. Although I don't see what difference it will make, because Voldy is going to kill Harry anyway and anytime and Harry isn't supposed to resist regardless.

But, anyway, Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape that it has to be Harry and Voldy in the end. Harry will be dead, as far as Snape knows.

Therefore, I think Snape had exactly some of the same struggles as Harry did, with one major difference. I don't think Snape spent much time worrying that Albus has never loved him, I don't think it was an expectation he ever had of Albus.

I think in one respect Snape was like Harry - he felt alone with his task after Dumbledore died. There's one passage in DH when Harry is thinking "why did Dumbledore leave me here alone with this." I can imagine Snape wondering the same thing and just missing his best friend, Dumbledore. :) The solace is that Snape was in Dumbledore's office and had Dumbledore's painting so they could still talk every day.

The solace is that Snape was in Dumbledore's office and had Dumbledore's painting so they could still talk every day.

What I saw of their conversations did not suggest this was much of a help. To me, anyway, the final conversation between Albus and Snape in "The Prince's Tale" suggests Snape is in a very DH-Harry-like mood. He is doing things (dangerous things) for which he does not have good explanations, and he wants to understand why better, though he is accepting (as I think we already saw him do in HBP) that there is a need for secrecy where he himself is concerned, since he is now even more regularly exposed to Voldemort.

What I saw of their conversations did not suggest this was much of a help. To me, anyway, the final conversation between Albus and Snape in "The Prince's Tale" suggests Snape is in a very DH-Harry-like mood. He is doing things (dangerous things) for which he does not have good explanations, and he wants to understand why better, though he is accepting (as I think we already saw him do in HBP) that there is a need for secrecy where he himself is concerned, since he is now even more regularly exposed to Voldemort.

Oh, I agree with you there! :)

Snape knew ahead of time that Dumbledore was going to die, so he knew ahead of time that there should have been an arrangement for smooth tranfer of power. Snape was part of what caused the disorder. Why was he okay with this?

I think he had no choice. While he knew ahead of time that Dumbledore was going to die, no one else did. Everyone was supposed to think of Snape as a traitor, even when he was working for the Order and Harry, which is why I feel so much that Snape was not given the proper explanations by Dumbledore when he was alive.

Both Dumbledore and Snape knew that once Snape "killed" Dumbledore, it was over for Snape as far as the Order and the WW in general was concerned until Voldemort was vanquished. And Snape understood that very well. He was essentially writing away his life, for even had he lived after Voldemort, the suspicions would have always stayed, because it was unlike Ariana's murder or the werewolf incident, where in the former a girl was killed and in the latter a student almost killed/bitten, this was a very public murder.

And with the Elder Wand, Dumbledore knew Snape would die before his innocence could be established either, for he would need to be killed before Voldemort would be vanquished.

Why do you think Snape felt the Order was extraneous to the cause, though? They all signed on to fight Voldemort, as you point out, but Snape apparently doesn't feel they are contributing to the cause.

It was Dumbledore who decided everything. By Harry not telling the Order about the horcruxes, even Remus and Arthur Weasley, would you conclude that Harry felt they could not help him or that they were not contributing enough? That was not the case. It was Dumbledore who decided Harry would go it alone, except for his 2 friends. With Snape, Dumbledore felt his portrait was enough. Snape could otherwise go it alone. Not even McGonagall was told and she could have helped him so much, not to mention all the insults she would not have meant to be taken seriously that one year IMO.

Now, I can see him following Dumbledore's orders because "Dumbledore said so" (a common mantra for many characters), and I can see him not wanting to explain to anyone else in the Order why Dumbledore had trusted him, but I don't understand why he felt no obligation to the organization that he voluntarily (I presume) joined.

What makes you think he had no obligation to the Order? Seeing that even if the Order members did not trust him (McGonagall must have mocked him and insulted him every single day that last year) Snape was still working only for the Order and Harry. He could not come out into the open like he did in OOTP, but that was how Dumbledore planed it for Snape, just like he planned something for Harry, Ron and Hermione which involved no other Order member IMO.

I think the Order should reasonably expect to fight against Voldemort without having their plans thwarted and lives endangered by someone who was supposed to be on their side.

But their plans and lives weren't; even if they thought it would be endangered, it wasn't. Snape was on their side all the time IMO.

Snape takes a different view, though, and I'm trying to figure out how deeply he considered this, and what his reasoning was. Did he feel that the Order's efforts were pointless?

I don't know if I understood you properly but I really don't think Snape felt anything about the Order; in that last year he had too much on his plate to even think about the Order's efforts IMO. He was doing his job and if at all he thought of the Order, I think he would be hoping they would be doing their jobs, which Dumbledore gave them properly IMO.

I am not sure if Snape's form of love (and Bella's, Merope's and Lavenders) are supposed to be okay just because they are love - but I would disagree with that idea. I feel that Snape's form of love, like the others, moved beyond what is healthy and positive in light of the relationship he had with the person and the way it played out against others. I don't claim to know what the series intends to say about this or about about many things - like arrogance (see my avatar - I grew up with Justice League and Trek heroes like Kirk where this is a fictionally good thing). And in other cases I just don't understand the reasoning behind some of the ideas, like naming for those who loath you, etc.
This might seem a bit pedantic but it's important to me. I would disagree with the idea that Snape's love (or any of the other characters you mention) was in any way wrong. I happen to believe that lvoe is always right - however I think that the way some characters behaved as a result of the love they felt was wrong. With Merope for example using a love potion was wrong. I also think that nobody behaves perfectly all the time - and that includes how we behave in response to our feelings of love. For some people this can be so marked as to make it difficult for them to have a good relationship. For example people with low self esteem can be very needy. But with love and support they can overcome these shortcomings and learn to respond to their feelings in a more appropriate manner. So while I disagree with you that their love was in any way wrong I sort of agree with you because IMO their behaviour - at least in some cases - was wrong. Snape wasn't great in his relationship with Lily but I didn't see any serious problems that couldn't be ironed out with a little reassurance. As for Lavender - she may have been a bit of a OTT but the real problem was that Ron didn't return her feelings and was really just using her, so I would say that Ron was the one more at fault there.

I haven't read the previous posts because I don't want to be spoiled, so forgive me for busting in to post, but I just finished the sixth book, and that was some plot twist. I'm sure Snape's still on our side, and I believe Dumbledore had aksed him to kill him, because of the "Please...", because Snape told him about the unbreakable vow, so Dumbledore knew he had no other choice. I hope I'm right!!

Sorry for the interruption, I just had to post that! :p

I haven't read the previous posts because I don't want to be spoiled, so forgive me for busting in to post, but I just finished the sixth book, and that was some plot twist. I'm sure Snape's still on our side, and I believe Dumbledore had aksed him to kill him, because of the "Please...", because Snape told him about the unbreakable vow, so Dumbledore knew he had no other choice. I hope I'm right!!

Sorry for the interruption, I just had to post that! :p

Welcome to COS and the Snape threads. :)

Good for you Nikolay. I hope you will enjoy Book 7 too and come back to post your opinions here. Happy reading. :)

I haven't read the previous posts because I don't want to be spoiled, so forgive me for busting in to post, but I just finished the sixth book, and that was some plot twist. I'm sure Snape's still on our side, and I believe Dumbledore had aksed him to kill him, because of the "Please...", because Snape told him about the unbreakable vow, so Dumbledore knew he had no other choice. I hope I'm right!!

Sorry for the interruption, I just had to post that! :p

You're not interrupting, but joining in! :welcome:

"Severus, Please" is one of the most powerful lines in all the books, in my opinion. :tu: :agree:

The Order are extraneous to the cause of defeating Voldemort, yes. And Snape, by the time of DH, knows it. He knows nothing the Order does will defeat Voldemort while Harry is still alive. He knows Harry is working on something that he can help with (as he does when he gets the Sword to Harry).

I would respectfully disagree. The Order was not extraneous to the cause of defeating Voldemort - as you point out below. But they were also providing safe houses for the trio and others, protecting the Muggle Minister, protecting students at Hogwarts, protecting Muggles in their homes, protecting muggleborns as possible, thwarting the Ministry's directives (some working on the inside) and others did so, even while in hiding. They also attempted to keep wizards informed of the truth in an underground manner. Many of them were targeted by the end - but they worked anyway.

Just because we didn't hear all of their specific actions, does not mean that their efforts were limited to those revealed in canon, just as we heard few of Snape's but must assume that he did more than twiddle his thumbs in the headmasters office each day except the moment he sent Ginny and friends to Hagrid.

If Snape felt the Order's efforts would not help Voldemort actually stop breathing - well he knew the same about his own efforts. Like the Order members, Snape understood Harry and gang were up to "something", but he knew nothing more than the other Order members about that.

This does not mean the Order's activities are pointless. They doubtless saved lives with the spells they cast, and encouraged others to cast, on the homes of Muggle neighbors, for example. Excellent, brave, generous,m worthwhile activities for which they had no need of Snape's services. I'm sure Snape appreciated that. Just as, for example, Snape's protection of students was not pointless.

Snape did no more toward bringing down Voldemort than the other Order members - as well as the self appointed vigilantes against Voldemort, until the end, imo. That is to say, Snape did his thing as possible, while attempting to also look as if he were working for Voldemort, which saw him doing things contrary to the efforts of the good side at times, (watching Charity die). And others similarly did their their thing. In that light, one could say all, including Snape, were extraneous to the cause of bringing down Voldemort - but I don't see it that way.

Snape took the sword which was certainly helpful - and Bill provided a safe house, also helpful. Kingsley kept the Muggle Minister safe, which was crucial to not dragging the Muggle world into the war (in terms of the effect his death as well as that of subsequent leaders, would have on muggles). I could go on with the little info we have, but we are missing a whole lot, so the foregoing is sufficient to me, to say that everyone was doing what they could and all of it in the end would set up conditions to allow for Voldemort's downfall and protecting others as possible.

The trio were the only characters in canon to actually be working toward Voldemort's downfall. Snape and the others, to me, were however, through their efforts, protecting and/or setting conditions that would enable Voldemort's fall in the end.

The trio were the only characters in canon to actually be working toward Voldemort's downfall. Snape and the others, to me, were however, through their efforts, protecting and/or setting conditions that would enable Voldemort's fall in the end.

I respectfully disagree with that appraisal. They were all working to defeat Voldemort, including the Order and Snape. The Trio's movements were the focus of the book of course because we see everything from Harry's point of view, and he can't be everywhere at once.

Snape is at a distinct disadvantage compared to most characters, not having a family to hide with and being an outcast from the Order. He can't approach the Trio with an offer of help the way Lupin does. However, he comes close with the Silver Doe - he literally becomes part of their experience in the forest and helps Harry in a way that no one else can. He's got the Sword of Gryffindor and he's the only one Dumbledore trusts with that.

Snape and the Order were always going in two directions. That's one meaning of the chapter "The Parting of the Ways" in GoF. On the one hand, Dumbledore and Fudge are parting ways, but there's no doubt that Snape also has to go his lonely way back to the graveyard and Voldemort. He has to do that alone, while for the other Order members they get to go meet up with the "old crowd."

I respectfully disagree with that appraisal. They were all working to defeat Voldemort, including the Order and Snape. The Trio's movements were the focus of the book of course because we see everything from Harry's point of view, and he can't be everywhere at once.

I mean, with each horcrux destroyed, they are actually reducing Voldemort's personal power. I agree with you, which is why I disagreed with Zara's opinion that the Order was extraneous.

This might seem a bit pedantic but it's important to me. I would disagree with the idea that Snape's love (or any of the other characters you mention) was in any way wrong. I happen to believe that lvoe is always right - however I think that the way some characters behaved as a result of the love they felt was wrong. With Merope for example using a love potion was wrong. I also think that nobody behaves perfectly all the time - and that includes how we behave in response to our feelings of love. For some people this can be so marked as to make it difficult for them to have a good relationship. For example people with low self esteem can be very needy. But with love and support they can overcome these shortcomings and learn to respond to their feelings in a more appropriate manner. So while I disagree with you that their love was in any way wrong I sort of agree with you because IMO their behaviour - at least in some cases - was wrong. Snape wasn't great in his relationship with Lily but I didn't see any serious problems that couldn't be ironed out with a little reassurance. As for Lavender - she may have been a bit of a OTT but the real problem was that Ron didn't return her feelings and was really just using her, so I would say that Ron was the one more at fault there.

I agree with the above (Actually I misremembered about Lav, so I'll leave her out). I don't think the "love" itself is wrong, but rather the tenor of that love which served as the basis for the wrongful behavior and actions of the persons named, including Snape.

Snape's emotions served as the basis for his mistreatment of Harry, his degrading and disrespecting Lily's husband and child, his unbridled comments to Dumbledore and Sirius, imo - and acts such as breaking into Sirius/Harry's personal things and stealing. To me, Snape was attempting to convince himself that he had some kind of "right" where Lily was concerned, which could justify the above. However, if he had behaved and acted under the truth of his relationship to her - that of an ex-friend from long before - then I think things would have been fine. But note that Snape's emotions also served as the basis for his changing sides, working for Dumbledore, assisting the cause and some protecting of Harry. The thing is, one can do the latter as a friend (see Sirius/Lupin). But Snape's emotions were more obsessive and possessory in nature, imo, which I feel combined with his personal efforts on her behalf, made him feel deserving of rights where she was concerned.

So I think there was a good side and a bad side to it. The problem for me is that I cannot ignore the bad side because if I do, then all that is left is the good, what actually should have been, and it honor's Snape's emotions in total, imo. But in total, his emotions were not honorable, due to the bad portions. Again, I don't refer to the love as the 'bad', but rather the wrongful behavior and acts that his emotions served as the basis for. Just to clarify, Merope's love in and of itself was fine; but the tenor of her love, also possesive and obsessive in nature, served as the basis for her negative acts in light of that love - but so did the birth of a child (a per se good thing) - so I cannot honor her emotions in total either, merely because some good came of it, because bad came of it also, imo. The upshot is, the "tenor" of this type love, when it takes on this character, it is negative, imo, and not the way to go, despite the fact that it is possible for good to come from it as well.

I would respectfully disagree. The Order was not extraneous to the cause of defeating Voldemort - as you point out below. But they were also providing safe houses for the trio and others, protecting the Muggle Minister, protecting students at Hogwarts, protecting Muggles in their homes, protecting muggleborns as possible, thwarting the Ministry's directives (some working on the inside) and others did so, even while in hiding. They also attempted to keep wizards informed of the truth in an underground manner. Many of them were targeted by the end - but they worked anyway.

These are all good actions. None of them help in the slightest to bring Voldemort closer to death. I am not denying the Order were good people doing good things, nor do I think Snape thought otherwise. But they were all good and useful things that would no longer even be necessary if Albus's plan for Harry and Snape succeeded.

Just because we didn't hear all of their specific actions, does not mean that their efforts were limited to those revealed in canon, just as we heard few of Snape's but must assume that he did more than twiddle his thumbs in the headmasters office each day except the moment he sent Ginny and friends to Hagrid.

Unless they were hunting down and destroying Horcruxes without Rowling sharing this with us, I can only repeat, I am sure their actions were varied and useful...but those actions did not bring Voldemort's defeat any closer.

If Snape felt the Order's efforts would not help Voldemort actually stop breathing - well he knew the same about his own efforts. Like the Order members, Snape understood Harry and gang were up to "something", but he knew nothing more than the other Order members about that.

Actually, Snape did NOT know the same about his efforts. He had reason to believe his efforts would further not just generally good things like keeping students safe, but also the specific outcome of Voldemort's defeat. One way they would do so, obviously, is that he would pass Albus's message to Harry when the "right" time came so that Harry would know what he needed to do.

In addition, however, he knew Harry had to die first, and he also knew that instead of urging Harry to go do so pronto, Dumbledore had assigned Harry some other task, in which Albus himself was also involved when still alive. He also knew, as I stated in my previous post, that this task had something to do with Voldemort being mortal once more, because Albus told him this much. By being at the school, being Albus's spy but also following his intructions (such as to give Harry the sword, or arrange for decoys to be used in the 7 Potters) he was helping the one person that was bringing Voldemort's death closer and closer, do so.

Snape took the sword which was certainly helpful - and Bill provided a safe house, also helpful.

To me a hand in the destructin of a Horcrux is more instrumental. Snape is not the only one that helped (deliberately) with same, but the others were Ron, Hermione, and Neville, not Order members.

The trio were the only characters in canon to actually be working toward Voldemort's downfall. Snape and the others, to me, were however, through their efforts, protecting and/or setting conditions that would enable Voldemort's fall in the end.

I would put Snape and Albus in that same group. :) Albus discovered Voldemort's use of Horcruxes, researched them, found and destroyed one, and identified several others for Harry. In this he was assisted by exactly one other person we know of, Snape, who saved his life from damage done by a Horcrux so that he might pass his knowledge on to Harry, passed Harry a means to destroy Horcruxes, and gave Harry Albus's final message.

These are all good actions. None of them help in the slightest to bring Voldemort closer to death. I am not denying the Order were good people doing good things, nor do I think Snape thought otherwise. But they were all good and useful things that would no longer even be necessary if Albus's plan for Harry and Snape succeeded.

What plan for Snape? Do you mean the Elder Wand to ultimately save Draco? It may have been helpful, but as it turned out, it was completely pointless in the end. The plan was taken out of Dumbledore's hands by Harry - and then Harry revealed all to Voldemort before they dueled.

Unless they were hunting down and destroying Horcruxes without Rowling sharing this with us, I can only repeat, I am sure their actions were varied and useful...but those actions did not bring Voldemort's defeat any closer.

Which includes Snape - that is my only point. So if you are calling everyone but the trio extraneous, in terms of lessening Voldemort's actual power, then I could agree. But I disagree emphatically that the efforts of everyone, including Snape, were not assisting in Voldemort's defeat.

Actually, Snape did NOT know the same about his efforts. He had reason to believe his efforts would further not just generally good things like keeping students safe, but also the specific outcome of Voldemort's defeat. One way they would do so, obviously, is that he would pass Albus's message to Harry when the "right" time came so that Harry would know what he needed to do.

But Snape was not doing this throughout DH. He did this in a few seconds before he died. Snape's "knowledge" of what he had to do in no way counts as an "effort", imo.

In addition, however, he knew Harry had to die first, and he also knew that instead of urging Harry to go do so pronto, Dumbledore had assigned Harry some other task, in which Albus himself was also involved when still alive. He also knew, as I stated in my previous post, that this task had something to do with Voldemort being mortal once more, because Albus told him this much. By being at the school, being Albus's spy but also following his intructions (such as to give Harry the sword, or arrange for decoys to be used in the 7 Potters) he was helping the one person that was bringing Voldemort's death closer and closer, do so.

I would have to disagree with the manner in which you are trying to distinguish Snape's efforts. How is Snape's duty as headmaster any more relevant or important to bringing down Voldemort than Kingsley's duty at saving the muggle minister? How is his taking the sword to Harry - which they could have used at any time, more important than Alberforth asking Dobby to save Harry and the trio and apparate them when they were on the point of being killed? In my opinion, there is no way to distinguish Snape's acts as more important or relevant throughout DH. It was just more in the way of helpful efforts, imo. A dead Harry is as bad as a swordless Harry in otherwords. Dobby and Alberforth had their important and relevant moments just as Snape did, but otherwise, everyone's efforts were the same - helpful - in my view. We don't know all of what Kingsley did - we don't know what Dumbledore asked him to do - we don't know how his protecting the minister was 'relevant' - but assuming he did it, I am figuring it was. We do know Snape's taking the sword, Alberforth and Dobby's saving efforts, Griphooks revelation efforts, Xeno's revelation efforts, Bill's safe house efforts, etc., were also relevant, in specific moments - but I don't see how that distinguishes Snape.

To me a hand in the destructin of a Horcrux is more instrumental. Snape is not the only one that helped (deliberately) with same, but the others were Ron, Hermione, and Neville, not Order members.

Snape playing delivery boy here was akin to Scrimgeour doing the same by delivering Dumbledore's legacy - I don't elevate Scrimgeour for that nor Snape - both were just carrying out duties assigned by Dumbledore, imo. As I pointed out, there were many others with highly relevant moments than those you named. I also believe that various Order members had highly relevant moments - for example, it is well and good that Snape assisted in setting up 7 Potters, but who exactly was it that did the flying during that plan? The Order members. Who gave their life for that plan? An Order member, not Snape. So without them, Snape's assistance was moot. Hence I disagree with the idea that Snape performed some kind of elevated service or his service was more important than many of the others assisting. And again, as for exactly what the Order members did - we have no idea, only bits and pieces, so I would disagree with the idea that their acts were not as pertinent to the effort as Snape's. Especially in light of the fact that the bits and pieces we know of what Snape do not provide for him doing anything at all of relevance during the course of DH - except taking the sword - and I can find an 'except' for many - so I feel the idea that Snape's service was distinguishable to be incorrect.

Nothing Snape did assisted in saving Harry's life along the way - yet things done by others did exactly that - but to me, that does not make them more 'relevant' - it merely was another way in which others could help. Kingsley was still acting spy in the beginning of DH, in addition to his special protection duties and I am hard pressed to believe he sat twidling his thumbs once he went underground. But all of the Order members converged in the final battle - so that would definitely be a relevant big moment for them, when they were fighting to save lives directly and defeat Voldemort. At that time, Snape wasn't doing anything at all to help them, so I could call him irrelevant - but I don't, because whatever he was doing, I am pretty sure it was in light of helping as he could. That is how I view it all.

I mean, with each horcrux destroyed, they are actually reducing Voldemort's personal power. I agree with you, which is why I disagreed with Zara's opinion that the Order was extraneous.

I was responding just to your post that the Trio were the only ones working towards Voldemort's downfall. By "extraneous" I thought that Zgirnius meant "not directly working towards" destroying the horcruxes. So in that instance, the Order is not working to destroy them because they did not know anything about the horcruxes.

Snape on the other hand knew that Harry was on a quest, and indeed, exactly where Harry was. Snape knew more than Ron knew at one point through Phineas Nigellus. In fact, Snape and Ron both get to the Forest of Dean at the same time. To my knowledge, there were no other Order members involved with that.

And the necklace horcrux wasn't the only one Snape knew about. He also knew about Nagini and her importance because Dumbledore told him. The only other person who knew that was Harry, and then Neville.

The way I see it, the other Order members were keeping their own families safe, and keeping morale up with the Potter Watch. Then anyone still alive came to fight at the Battle of Hogwarts. But in my opinion, Snape was the only Order Member on par with the Trio as far as tracking down the horcruxes.

One other point - the other Order members didn't help with any of the horcruxes come to think of it except for Dumbledore who destroyed the ring - with Snape's help, I believe. Harry destroyed the diary with help from Fawkes and the Sword of Gryffindor. Kreacher wasn't in the Order but helped track down the locket (Mundungus was in the Order but he wasn't exactly cooperating, then the Trio got it from Umbridge). Griphook helped with the cup - and he wasn't in the Order. Neville killed Nagini after Harry saw Snape's memory, and Harry killed the horcrux inside his own head and also Voldemort.

So to me, it was certainly a group effort that the Order helped raise Harry to adulthood and watched over him. But towards the end in DH, the focus became very narrow, and as the Order members dispersed to other places Snapes role became pivotal because he was still at Hogwarts and knew how Harry's quest had to end, in my opinion.

I disagree that Snape helped destroy any horcruxes - I respect the view of those who see it otherwise. Delivering the sword and healing Dumbledore's hand and being bitten by Nagini is not destroying horcruxes, imo. The trio and Neville + Dumbledore destroyed them all, imo. Xeno, Snape, Crabbe, Draco, Griphook, Bill, Fleur, Alberforth, Dobby, Regulus, Kreacher, Sirius, Scrimgeour, Griphook, Bella, Lucius, Ginny, Moaning Myrtle, Minerva, Rowena's ghost, and a dragon (and more I am likely omitting), were all helpful in providing assistance - but I do not elevate any one of them over the others, including Snape.

but I do not elevate any one of them over the others, including Snape.

I do. :D

But that's not really the point I am discussing. I am debating those who wonder why Snape did not "join the Order" in DH. And I find the reason to be, that he knew he was working on something crucial to the defeat of Voldemort right where he was, that took precedence over other possible activities for him.

I disagree that Snape helped destroy any horcruxes

There was one horucrux that Harry knew nothing about untill the night of the battle, the one that Severus told him about. Had Severus not passed on that message Harry would have had no reason to go into the Forest to face Voldemort and let him try to kill him.

For some of us that, combined with the means to destroy the horucruxes, is what made his roll different from many other very brave people in the Order jmho :)

But that's not really the point I am discussing. I am debating those who wonder why Snape did not "join the Order" in DH. And I find the reason to be, that he knew he was working on something crucial to the defeat of Voldemort right where he was, that took precedence over other possible activities for him.

:tu: Exactly!

Snape's emotions served as the basis for his mistreatment of Harry, his degrading and disrespecting Lily's husband and child, his unbridled comments to Dumbledore and Sirius, imo - and acts such as breaking into Sirius/Harry's personal things and stealing. To me, Snape was attempting to convince himself that he had some kind of "right" where Lily was concerned, which could justify the above. However, if he had behaved and acted under the truth of his relationship to her - that of an ex-friend from long before - then I think things would have been fine. But note that Snape's emotions also served as the basis for his changing sides, working for Dumbledore, assisting the cause and some protecting of Harry. The thing is, one can do the latter as a friend (see Sirius/Lupin). But Snape's emotions were more obsessive and possessory in nature, imo, which I feel combined with his personal efforts on her behalf, made him feel deserving of rights where she was concerned.
Well I wouldn't say his emotions were the basis for particular behaviours because that makes it sound like a conscious decision which it isn't. I would say that certain behaviours were a response to Snape feeling certain emotions. So for example when Snape looked at Harry he would probably feel:
Anger - as he remembers his mistreatment at the hands of Harry's father
Fear - as he remembers the fear he felt when he was mistreated by the marauders
Sadness - in remembering that Lily is dead
Shame - that he contributed to her death
Envious - that Lily loved and married James
Remorse - for causing Lily's death
Resentment - that Lily died to save Harry
Fear - that Harry is supposed to be 'the chosen one'


And that is just off the top of my head! As a result of this cocktail of emotions Severus - being the judgemental soul that he is - would then judge himself as weak for feeling the fear and sadness, the shame and remorse would become guilt as he is unable to forgive himself for past mistakes. Together these would increase his self-loathing and reduce his self-esteem. The envy and resentment would turn to a bitter anger. Feeling this he would then strike out at the cause of his emotional turmoil - namely Harry - and in his mind would justify it (as he would be unconscious of the emotions) by blaming Harry for being arrogant etc.
So what I am saying is we have a series of emotions which are unresolved and lead him to self-loathing and bitter anger, and to which he reacts by lashing out, while being totally unaware that any of this is going on.

If Snape had been better able to deal with his emotions he could have responded by forgiving James for mistreating him (after all James did change when he got older), forgiving himself for contributing to Lily's death, remembering the girl he had loved fondly and be thankful that she had been part of his life, and a determination to train Harry to the best of his ability. IMO though Snape was not able to deal with his emotions in a constructive way because of the neglect of his parents, which would have restricted his emotional development.

I disagree that his emotions were of an obssessive and possessive nature. I would say that feeling the emotions he did his insecurity caused him to behave in a slightly obsessive/possessive way regarding Lily. But as I have said, I think this could have been resolved.

This isn't about trying to excuse Snape. This is merely explaining the psychological and emotional processes which lead him to behave the way he does. It doesn't make his behaviour okay - it just helps to understand what is behind it. This is what I beleive Harry did and why he was able to honour Snape by naming his son after him. Ultimately Harry realised that Snape's behaviour - as awful as it had been - was not really about him Harry - it was about Snape and how Severus felt about himself.

Originally Posted by wwb
I am not sure if Snape's form of love (and Bella's, Merope's and Lavenders) are supposed to be okay just because they are love - but I would disagree with that idea. I feel that Snape's form of love, like the others, moved beyond what is healthy and positive in light of the relationship he had with the person and the way it played out against others. I don't claim to know what the series intends to say about this or about about many things - like arrogance (see my avatar - I grew up with Justice League and Trek heroes like Kirk where this is a fictionally good thing). And in other cases I just don't understand the reasoning behind some of the ideas, like naming for those who loath you, etc.

But haven't you argued time and time again that intent doesn't matter? If intent doesn't matter, then how does it matter how he loved Lily? [staff edit]

Everyone, I'm going to ask you to tone it down a notch in here; there's no reason why we can't have a nice, ordered discussion without resorting to sarcasm and witticism. There's been many in-threads in here lately, I think it's an indication that everyone needs to take a big breath before posting.

Thanks.

I do. :D

:rotfl:

But that's not really the point I am discussing. I am debating those who wonder why Snape did not "join the Order" in DH. And I find the reason to be, that he knew he was working on something crucial to the defeat of Voldemort right where he was, that took precedence over other possible activities for him.

Snape couldn't join the Order under the circumstances, imo. Dumbledore may have been able to make a different plan which entailed him having some kind of connect with an Order member or something, but because he did not, that was the end of that as I see it. I feel Dumbledore was most concerned with Snape appearing faithful to Voldemort, at the expense of what any connection with the Order or Harry might avail Snape. So I agree with you, perhaps for slightly different reasons, but yeah, he couldn't have as it ws set up, imo.

Well I wouldn't say his emotions were the basis for particular behaviours because that makes it sound like a conscious decision which it isn't. I would say that certain behaviours were a response to Snape feeling certain emotions. So for example when Snape looked at Harry he would probably feel:
Anger - as he remembers his mistreatment at the hands of Harry's father
Fear - as he remembers the fear he felt when he was mistreated by the marauders
Sadness - in remembering that Lily is dead
Shame - that he contributed to her death
Envious - that Lily loved and married James
Remorse - for causing Lily's death
Resentment - that Lily died to save Harry
Fear - that Harry is supposed to be 'the chosen one'


I don't really see a distinction between what I said and what you said, so I feel like we are in agreement. :lol:. But Maybe I misunderstood you. I do disagree with #'s 1 and 2 as I feel Snape was feeling otherwise with respect to those events. And I would respectfully disagree with #7, because I don't feel there is any canon to support it (although I am not saying it is impossible, I just don't credit it because there is no indication in canon, imo) and #8 I disagree with, but only because I don't feel that fear is the emotion Snape feels on that account. I feel he was jealous of Harry until he found out he'd have to die due to being the chosen one, after which I felt he felt satisfaction on account of it.

So what I am saying is we have a series of emotions which are unresolved and lead him to self-loathing and bitter anger, and to which he reacts by lashing out, while being totally unaware that any of this is going on.

I am not sure what you mean - so maybe that is what you meant why we disagree. Do you mean that Snape didn't realize he was angry and jealous, etc.?

If Snape had been better able to deal with his emotions he could have responded by forgiving James for mistreating him (after all James did change when he got older), forgiving himself for contributing to Lily's death, remembering the girl he had loved fondly and be thankful that she had been part of his life, and a determination to train Harry to the best of his ability.

I would disagree that Snape had to forgive childhood enemyships, anymore than Harry had to forgive Draco for his antics or Draco forgive Harry for his. One matures and just lets that stuff go, imo. Sirius and Snape had a problem doing that, imo. I think more important than forgiving himself for contributing to Lily's death, would be accepting the responsibility that he had contributed to many deaths - many orphans, widows, etc., and gain overall remorse and repentance for the lot of it - which would then allow him to reconcile with himself over it all, imo, including Lily's death.

IMO though Snape was not able to deal with his emotions in a constructive way because of the neglect of his parents, which would have restricted his emotional development.

While I would agree that did play a role in Snape's poor development as a youngster, I don't believe it to be dispositive. After all, Harry was mistreated and did not turn into the person Snape did. So I would disagree that this was Snape's foremost problem.

I disagree that his emotions were of an obssessive and possessive nature. I would say that feeling the emotions he did his insecurity caused him to behave in a slightly obsessive/possessive way regarding Lily. But as I have said, I think this could have been resolved.

I would agree with the statement that Snape's character caused him to behave in an obsessive/possessive way regarding Lily. That is what I meant.

This isn't about trying to excuse Snape. This is merely explaining the psychological and emotional processes which lead him to behave the way he does. It doesn't make his behaviour okay - it just helps to understand what is behind it. This is what I beleive Harry did and why he was able to honour Snape by naming his son after him. Ultimately Harry realised that Snape's behaviour - as awful as it had been - was not really about him Harry - it was about Snape and how Severus felt about himself.

Other than the idea that Snape was not responsible or even knowledgeable about his own feelings and emotions, I could agree. I don't really understand what you mean by that, however, so I could not really agree or disagree. I do agree that Harry understood Snape's negative behavior and actions were a product of his character. As JKR pointed out, Snape was a "small man" and as such, could not bring himself to do better, imo. But I do not personally see anything honorable about that - or Snape's self-image - or Snape's dishonoring Lily in his treatment of her loved ones. I do see his spying as relevant, but that to me does not explain the naming. I respect the fact that others feel it does though. :)

But haven't you argued time and time again that intent doesn't matter? If intent doesn't matter, then how does it matter how he loved Lily?

No, I have always had the same argument with respect to love in the series. I am not sure what I might have been speaking about with respect to intent not mattering, I would have to see what I said to respond effectively. But on this particular topic, I do feel it matters. :)

There was one horucrux that Harry knew nothing about untill the night of the battle, the one that Severus told him about. Had Severus not passed on that message Harry would have had no reason to go into the Forest to face Voldemort and let him try to kill him.

For some of us that, combined with the means to destroy the horucruxes, is what made his roll different from many other very brave people in the Order jmho :)

I respect your view, the thing is, Harry didn't know what several of the horcruxes were, he had to figure it out on the way, so I felt many were helpful in that task. Snape too because as you point out, he told Harry of another factor (he wasn't actually a horcrux) that was necessary for him to know - but Dumbledore told Snape to tell him. This is where I see things distinctly because Snape should have told Harry right away, imo, but he adopted Dumbledore's plan and together they wrongfully withheld life and death information from Harry until it suited them in my judgment. So I do not see that as anything good, I feel that was carried out in a very negative fashion. The deed itself was Dumbledore's plotting and Snape playing messenger, so all in all, this stands out for me as a stain on their characters rather than any kind of positive highlight. I have changed my mind that Snape was more culpable because he believed Harry would die; that was Dumbledore's fault for not disclosing that fact to Snape - so while I feel Snape is culpable too, I would hold them equally so. Dumbledore does have some mitigation in his knowledge, but the fact that he withheld that from Snape equalizes the good, imo. He facilitated Snape's wrong, but Snape took it up and carried it out, so imo, they are quite equal in their misdealings.

I also disagree that Snape provided the means to destroy the horcruxes. Unless I am mistaken, he provided the means to destroy one. I mean so did Crabbe whose spell actually destroyed one and he wasn't sent to do it by any one, it just conveniently worked out. I merely see Snape with the others who provided means of destroying horcruxes helpful. So I see that distinctly too. :)

posted by WWB
I also disagree that Snape provided the means to destroy the horcruxes. Unless I am mistaken, he provided the means to destroy one. I mean so did Crabbe whose spell actually destroyed one and he wasn't sent to do it by any one, it just conveniently worked out. I merely see Snape with the others who provided means of destroying horcruxes helpful. So I see that distinctly too.

If Snape had not told Harry about that horcrux, I doubt Harry would have found out about his scar having a soul bit on his own. Harry was operating on Dumbledore's facts, not his research and he knew that there were 6 horcruxes plus Voldemort. So, unless Harry was told about the horcrux and also about the fact that Voldemort himself had to kill him, (to make him survive) Harry would not have known IMO. And Voldemort even if he had been killed in the Great Hall would not have "died" IMO.

Snape's message to Harry was very important because that was what helped Harry to ultimately vanquish Voldemort for good IMO.

If Snape had not told Harry about that horcrux, I doubt Harry would have found out about his scar having a soul bit on his own. Harry was operating on Dumbledore's facts, not his research and he knew that there were 6 horcruxes plus Voldemort. So, unless Harry was told about the horcrux and also about the fact that Voldemort himself had to kill him, (to make him survive) Harry would not have known IMO. And Voldemort even if he had been killed in the Great Hall would not have "died" IMO.

Snape's message to Harry was very important because that was what helped Harry to ultimately vanquish Voldemort for good IMO.
Agreed. To me, the last three horcruxes are the most important, and Snape is also important because of his role in Lily's magical blood protection of Harry.

Nagini had special protection, and Snape as told by Dumbledore specifically to watch out for that and then warn Harry. He didn't tell anyone else, only Snape.

Then there was the horcrux in Harry's head. No one else knew it was there or that Harry needed to sacrifice himself to destroy it. Snape didn't want Lily's boy to die in order to destroy Voldemort and he tells Dumbledore that. But in the end, he gives Harry the memory. No one else could do that because no one else knew that Harry's scar was connected to Voldemort.

And it was Lily's blood that kept both Voldemort and Harry alive in the forest. By taking some of Harry's blood in GoF, Voldemort just made the boy more powerful because neither of them could be destroyed. That "charmed blood" of Harry's was only possible because Snape asked Voldemort to give Lily a chance to live, and she chose to die for her son. So Snape is the key to Harry's magical protection - and no one else. The Order has nothing to do with that because none of them knew about Snape's request to spare Lily.

Finally, it may seem that Snape had nothing to do with the Elder wand turning against Voldemort and destroying him - the final horcrux. And that's partly true, although Harry gets to throw it in Voldemort's face that Snape was never his man at all.

But Harry once again uses "Expelliarmus" against Voldemort. That's the only spell he ever uses against Voldemort, and it works every time.

In CoS, he disarms Lockhart with it before opening the Chamber and yes, destroying a horcrux:

Harry reached his wand just in time. Lockhart had barely raised his, when Harry bellowed, "Expelliarmus!"

Lockhart was blasted backward, falling over his trunk; his wand flew high into the air; Ron caught it, and flung it out of the open window.

"Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one," said Harry furiously...

In GoF, when he's trapped in the graveyard about to duel with Voldemort, Harry thinks:

"At these words Harry remembered, as though from a former life, the dueling club at Hogwarts he had attended briefly two years ago. ... All he had learned there was the Disarming Spell, "Expelliarmus". . .

And at the end, when Harry really can't lose, instead of throwing an Avada Kedavra right back at Voldemort, he once against chooses to use Expelliarmus, and it works perfectly again.

Snape may think in HBP that he's never taught Harry anything, but he certainly taught him Expelliarmus, and good thing, too. :tu: :)

Agreed. To me, the last three horcruxes are the most important, and Snape is also important because of his role in Lily's magical blood protection of Harry.

Exactly SIP. :agree: Snape went to Voldemort with the prophecy, an act that placed Lily in danger. But it was becauase of him that Harry got this magical protection and because of that Harry would live through Avada Kedavra's, three of them, surprisingly, Voldemort gave Lily 3 chances to step aside before killing her. Three times (once in Halloween, once in the Forest and a third time in the Great Hall), the killing curse fails to kill Harry, without any shield or any animal or statue takingthe curse for his sake (like Fawkes and a centaur statue took the AK's for Dumbledore in the Dept. of Mysteries).

Harry defeats Voldemort with the curse Snape taught him; is saved from death by the message Snape gave him and defeats Voldemort by the wand Snape dies for and survives the AK's because of the choices Voldemort gave Lily for Snape IMO. While one may argue that Snape was culpable for the death of the Potters and one may right too, it cannot be argued IMO that it was because of Snape Harry survived in the end. :)

Exactly SIP. :agree: Snape went to Voldemort with the prophecy, an act that placed Lily in danger. But it was becauase of him that Harry got this magical protection and because of that Harry would live through Avada Kedavra's, three of them, surprisingly, Voldemort gave Lily 3 chances to step aside before killing her. Three times (once in Halloween, once in the Forest and a third time in the Great Hall), the killing curse fails to kill Harry, without any shield or any animal or statue takingthe curse for his sake (like Fawkes and a centaur statue took the AK's for Dumbledore in the Dept. of Mysteries).

I never noticed all those "threes" before! :wow:

Harry defeats Voldemort with the curse Snape taught him; is saved from death by the message Snape gave him and defeats Voldemort by the wand Snape dies for and survives the AK's because of the choices Voldemort gave Lily for Snape IMO. While one may argue that Snape was culpable for the death of the Potters and one may right too, it cannot be argued IMO that it was because of Snape Harry survived in the end. :)
One interesting way to see it is that "Slytherin" saved Harry. He had Draco's Wand, Regulus's House Elf Kreacher, the Malfoy's House Elf Dobby, Phineas Nigellus to spy on Hogwarts and to tell Snape where to bring the Sword, Crabbe's Fiend Fire, the Basilisk Fangs (destroyed two horcruxes), Narcissa's help, and Snape's memories. :lol: Oh, and Ron spoke Parseltongue!

(Of course I realize that he couldn't have done it without Gryffindor, too, but I'm just sayin - the only real "cooperation" between the houses comes through Harry and Slytherin.)

I would disagree that Snape had to forgive childhood enemyships, anymore than Harry had to forgive Draco for his antics or Draco forgive Harry for his. One matures and just lets that stuff go, imo.
Well that's what forgiving is - letting it go and not letting it bother you anymore, so we are basically agreeing :)

I think more important than forgiving himself for contributing to Lily's death, would be accepting the responsibility that he had contributed to many deaths - many orphans, widows, etc., and gain overall remorse and repentance for the lot of it - which would then allow him to reconcile with himself over it all, imo, including Lily's death.Well I kind of agree with you. In order to forgive yourself you have to acknowledge responsibility then feel remorse and have the desire to atone - then you have to let it go - forgive yourself. This is where Snape fell down. He was unable to forgive himself as much as he was unable to forgive James. The result is that he therefore must condemn himself (as he does James whom he can't forgive)which results in the self-loathing or to ease the condemnation try to shift the blame onto others. This is extremely common in judgemental people and is a very well observed trait of Severus.

There is no canon to indicate that Snape was responsible for any other deaths, but he would have to feel remorse for being part of an organisation which considered murder to be okay, which I think he did.

While I would agree that did play a role in Snape's poor development as a youngster, I don't believe it to be dispositive. After all, Harry was mistreated and did not turn into the person Snape did. So I would disagree that this was Snape's foremost problem.
Here I disagree. Not all mistreatment is the same. Harry had 15 months of love from his parents. He may not have been able to remember this but this is a crucial time for development - a time when a child is learning about 'self' and 'others', about love and security. This as any psychologist wil tell you is crucial. This 15 months gave Harry a sense of self worth that stayed with him throughout his time with the Dursleys. His parents love taught him from the beginning that he was valued. On the other hand Snape apparently was never cherished as Harry was. As such he had no self worth because he was never valued by his parents in the way that Harry was. Without this it is far more difficult for a child to make sense of the people around them. Harry had no friends because no one wanted to cross Dudley; Severus had no friends because he didn't know how to be a friend - he hadn't had the parental affection that taught him these emotional lessons. Hence when he does make a friend - Lily he tends to cling on too tight.
We could also compare him to Voldemort, who besides having no parental affection also seemed to have some sort of personality disorder from the start (I say that because he didn't cry much as a child) Now that does not excuse Tom Riddle in any way from the acts of evil he committed, but given his start in life he was always going to struggle to become a well adjusted adult. But from an early age he showed that he not only disregarded others, but actually had no qualms about harming them if it suited his purpose. orry I'm going off topis here - but I have a very strong interest in psychology.
Anyway the facts are that children who are neglected find it harder to make friends and form relationships because they haven't had the emotional input from their parents - it is like if you never go to school you can't be expected to know how to read and write.
You can try to copy others, but at the end of the day unless you learn how to do it you will never really know. This is how I think Snape was with relationships (and I mean all relationships here) - he just didn't know how to relate to people and this was because of neglect he suffered as a child. Even before DH and the memories we are shown I was fairly certain that Snape had suffered in some way as a child because of his behaviour. The scene we are shown in "The Prince's Tale" just confirmed it for me.

And it was Lily's blood that kept both Voldemort and Harry alive in the forest. By taking some of Harry's blood in GoF, Voldemort just made the boy more powerful because neither of them could be destroyed. That "charmed blood" of Harry's was only possible because Snape asked Voldemort to give Lily a chance to live, and she chose to die for her son. So Snape is the key to Harry's magical protection - and no one else. The Order has nothing to do with that because none of them knew about Snape's request to spare Lily.

Well my view is simply broader. Surely I can't blame Peter Pettigrew for betrayal if we don't credit him with Voldemort gaining access - and I have to give a nod James for telling Lily to get Harry and run, rather than find her wand and they take Voldemort together, and I feel Voldemort was the most relevant party for his decision to even consider Snape's request; also implicating Snape; to spare Lily - and foremost Voldemort for giving up on that idea and deciding to just have done and kill Lily rather than stun her or knock her aside or something and go for Harry - and even Harry for hardening Voldemort's heart even more with his crying. So I see a lot of ancilliary involvement there.

But Harry once again uses "Expelliarmus" against Voldemort. That's the only spell he ever uses against Voldemort, and it works every time.

In CoS, he disarms Lockhart with it before opening the Chamber and yes, destroying a horcrux:

Harry reached his wand just in time. Lockhart had barely raised his, when Harry bellowed, "Expelliarmus!"

Lockhart was blasted backward, falling over his trunk; his wand flew high into the air; Ron caught it, and flung it out of the open window.

"Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one," said Harry furiously...

In GoF, when he's trapped in the graveyard about to duel with Voldemort, Harry thinks:

"At these words Harry remembered, as though from a former life, the dueling club at Hogwarts he had attended briefly two years ago. ... All he had learned there was the Disarming Spell, "Expelliarmus". . .

And at the end, when Harry really can't lose, instead of throwing an Avada Kedavra right back at Voldemort, he once against chooses to use Expelliarmus, and it works perfectly again.

Snape may think in HBP that he's never taught Harry anything, but he certainly taught him Expelliarmus, and good thing, too. :tu: :)

Well of course Snape knew he'd taught Harry, and more children besides that spell as sure as he'd taught them potions and saw the results, imo. You left out the example where he'd realize this: in the Shrieking shack, Harry, Hermione and Ron all used it simultaneously on Snape himself and sent him flying into a wall, rendering him unconscious - but I reckon he heard the spell prior to blacking out. Harry also saw his father use that spell against Snape in SWM and although it didn't work in the graveyard as planned, it had worked against Lockheart. So I think Snape would be aware that Harry knew the spell and that he'd taught it to the kids.

But Harry actually used 'love' in all of the occassions that he beat Voldemort, and to me that was the foremost important element - more important than spells or swords, tones or balisk thorns. I feel that in each of his meetings with Voldemort, it was shown that love won the day over magic of any kind. Snape didn't teach Harry that - he learned that from his parents, Sirius, Lupin, Molly, his friends, Dumbledore and others that shared and recevied love with and from him. An interesting question is if Snape ever came to realize that Harry was not a child who was saved merely because he was "lucky and had friends" as he indicated earlier on (as did Voldemort), but rather because he also had love on his side?

One interesting way to see it is that "Slytherin" saved Harry. He had Draco's Wand, Regulus's House Elf Kreacher, the Malfoy's House Elf Dobby, Phineas Nigellus to spy on Hogwarts and to tell Snape where to bring the Sword, Crabbe's Fiend Fire, the Basilisk Fangs (destroyed two horcruxes), Narcissa's help, and Snape's memories. :lol: Oh, and Ron spoke Parseltongue!

Yes; and when you put it that way, it's amazing just how much the so called "evil House" contributed to the victory for the Light.

(Of course I realize that he couldn't have done it without Gryffindor, too, but I'm just sayin - the only real "cooperation" between the houses comes through Harry and Slytherin.)

:agree: Gryffindor and Slytherin, with Slytherin helping Gryffindor to victory. :)

Well I think P Black stressed that point when he said 'don't forget about Slytherin's help!' but the unity was well rounded, Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs helped just as much, imo.

I never got the impression that Snape (or other professors) were too concerned about unity though. I felt like Snape was in it for his own house - perhaps due to the natural rivalry that arose between the houses in so many ways. All of the houses had to combat the formidable Gryffindor - based on how the story was written - and so in the end, I don't feel any other house was shown to come even close in forwarding the downfall of Voldy and bringing peace to the wizard world. But it was written in Harry's POV, so one has to take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

That leads to a new consideration: could Snape have done more to try and reduce the blood prejudice and budding Death Eater values that arose in his house among the students?

Yes; it was about House Unity; the other Houses helped too, but Slytherin, which always got bad press, Snape as its House Head was not seen very favourably and Slytherin's students were all called evil, was the AHouse which came through for the WW and Harry. In that light, I think Slytherin contributed more than anyone. Snape, of course gave all IMO.

posted by WWB
I never got the impression that Snape (or other professors) were too concerned about unity though.

None of the professors really cared IMO. The worse example of this was the werewolf incident, where we have no punishment handed out to Black for his "prank" against Snape in canon. We don't even know if Slughorn was aware of what happened to his student and this was an incident where Snape could have lost his life or be cursed for the rest of it IMO.

I think it's the way such incidents are handled by Dumbledore and other Professors that really antognises a group of people against the staff and Headmaster, who, when they want to evade Voldemort are left with no alternatives, for such partial treatment by Dumbledore would only make sure of one thing. Not to approach Dumbledore for protection or guidance IMO.

Yes; it was about House Unity; the other Houses helped too, but Slytherin, which always got bad press, Snape as its House Head was not seen very favourably and Slytherin's students were all called evil, was the AHouse which came through for the WW and Harry. In that light, I think Slytherin contributed more than anyone. Snape, of course gave all IMO. None of the professors really cared IMO. The worse example of this was the werewolf incident, where we have no punishment handed out to Black for his "prank" against Snape in canon. We don't even know if Slughorn was aware of what happened to his student and this was an incident where Snape could have lost his life or be cursed for the rest of it IMO. I think it's the way such incidents are handled by Dumbledore and other Professors that really antognises a group of people against the staff and Headmaster, who, when they want to evade Voldemort are left with no alternatives, for such partial treatment by Dumbledore would only make sure of one thing. Not to approach Dumbledore for protection or guidance IMO.

But I feel that view exonerates Snape from all guilt in the situation. Why should others receive all of the punishment when he made up his mind to stop the tree and go into the tunnel? He claimed he wished to expose his enemies to show Lily they were not wonderful - that included exposing Lupin - I don't think that is wonderful (and it would expose Dumbledore, the professors and Poppy as well). So punishment all around was due and if Snape went unpunished, why shouldn't Sirius, when all he told him was how to access the tree, but did not force Snape to break the rules and go in?

I think that part of it was fair only because Dumbledore was involved. But I agree with you that otherwise all of the professors were pretty house biased. Slytherin was called evil - but not unfairly - as most of the dark wizards were from Slytherin. I love Slytherin, but I am not about to try and say they were made up of a lot of well behaving young men and women who were misunderstood and misconstrued. While some Slytherins were certainly not headed down the evil road, a good many of them were and that is why they had that reputation - a reputation I believe they liked.

Snape was a Slytherin and while growing up in the house, he too was headed down the wrong road, the dark path. As head of house, he could have perhaps of had some positive influence on the kids as he had changed sides. But I don't know if it was his spying or merely his perspective that kept him from shuttling the children toward a better road. Nonetheless, between him and Slughorn, some of them at least understood that Voldy's road was not the best way to go (even if they were blood prejudice) and so that is something. Perhaps there was some shuttling we simply didn't see.

I was thinking this evening about HP, and got to thinking about what my favorite Snape scene is in the series. I had fun thinking about it, so I figured I'd share. Anyone who wants to play, please post which is your favorite scene, and if you can decide why, what are the reasons it is your favorite.

My own answer is a somewhat boring one (the answer, because it is such a defining scene, not the scene itself!) It is the scene in Dumbledore's office in "The Prince's Tale" in which Dumbledore reveals to Snape that Harry "must" die.

I say it is my favorite, because it is certainly the one that has left the most lasting impression on me. I have some difficulty in determining why exactly this is.

I found it to be overwhelmingly sad (and this was all about Snape, not Harry - I was sure his happy ending was coming despite this scene). I think, perhaps, that it was not only the scene itelf, but that it was the culmination of his expulsion form Hogwarts, his death and the series of memories seen in that chapter. We saw Snape had given up his public reputation and his life, we saw his dedication to his chosen mission of protecting Harry and the reasons for it, in his memories, and then in this one scene, we saw him learn he would have to give even that up. And of course, because we were learning this from seeing it in a memory he gave to Harry, we already knew the choice he had made. :sigh:

Zgirnius: That's a great scene, and I love it too. Another favorite of mine is when Snape meets Lily and tells her "it's real for us" - that's one of the best lines in the whole series.

But I'd have to go back to the end of GoF, to the scene when Snape steps up and shows Cornelius Fudge his Dark Mark. That is a big forceful statement from Snape, and it takes guts to do that with the Minister of Magic in the room.

His action becomes even more important in OotP, when the Ministry propaganda machine is churning out lies about Harry and Dumbledore. Snape is really the first witness to tell Fudge that Dumbledore and Harry are completely telling the truth and he doesn't hesitate. Also meaningful is that Snape has just appeared in the Barty Crouch's Foe Glass just before this scene - a huge clue that Snape is on Harry's side.


"(Fudge) rocked backward and forward on his small feet for a moment and spun his bowler hat in his hands. Finally, he said, with a hint of a plea in his voice, "He can't be back, Dumbledore, he just can't be ..."

Snape strode forward, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.

"There," said Snape harshly. "There. The Dark Mark. It is not as clear as it was an hour or so ago, when it burned black, but you can still see it. Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him. When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side. This Mark has been growing clearer all year. Karkaroff's too. Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight? We both felt the Mark burn. We both knew he had returned. Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengeance. He betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the fold."

Fudge stepped back from Snape too. He was shaking his head.

Wow, yeah, not to mention how painful and shameful it must have been for Snape to publicly expose his dark mark to the minister himself.

Before reading DH though, this bit of heroism on Snape's part was overshadowed by his attempts earlier in the scene to quiet Harry when he was naming off all the death eaters he witnessed in the graveyard....

I'm still unsure about that...why did Snape appear like he was trying to motion to Harry to shut up about naming off death eaters?

This was one of the clues pre-DH, I used to argue that Snape was bad, actually.

I was thinking this evening about HP, and got to thinking about what my favorite Snape scene is in the series. I had fun thinking about it, so I figured I'd share. Anyone who wants to play, please post which is your favorite scene, and if you can decide why, what are the reasons it is your favorite.

My favorite scene involving Snape is SWM. I think Snape showed his true colors in that scene by issuing dark curses and showing himself to be prejudice in his youth - and also showing his bullying nature had begun at a young age (it gave us a preview understanding of the kid he was and why it was logical that he ended up a Death Eater.) In totally using JKR's fancy twist against her, I also appreciated seeing Snape being bested in a hex war because to that point, all we were shown was Snape bullying the kids, being rude to his peers and generally getting away with murder, in my judgment. I understand that it is prospective retribution (his getting his for what he "would do" in the future as well as all he had done in the past to merit the treatment) - but JKR did include Snape giving it out for what had happened in the past based on the present, so it was kind of a similar like twist of reasoning that normally would not justify, imo. But from a reader's standpoint, it was great to see Snape face the music for once, and seeing his bullying behavior bested despite his best efforts.

Up to that point I was praying that Dumbledore - or someone - would step in and stricture, sanction or otherwise discipline Snape for his behavior (or even another head of house making him behave in that regard), but that never happened, despite the author making it clear, imo, that Snape was behaving wrongfully. So SWM was to me, a form of retribution (from a reader's standpoint) for the wrongs I felt he'd gotten away with throughout the actual series up to that point. Although it wasn't much, and thus, not really much in the way of balancing harms relative to what Snape was doing to the children and his behavior toward others, it was something at least. A great addition to that scene came in discovering that Snape's own hugely popular spell had been used against him, to his utter dismay.

My favourite Snape scene; just one! – are you kidding! :err::lol:

I simply couldn’t chose a single scene, for one there’s too many to choose from, but mainly because Severus is such a complicated character that different scenes show different dimensions of the character imo so one scene will never be enough to give the weight the character possesses imo.

However my favourite bit of CoS is a simple paragraph near the beginning, where Severus announces his presence with the line “Or maybe he’s waiting to hear why you two didn’t arrive on the school train.”

The first reason is fairly straight forward – it makes me laugh! The line is not in itself very funny, I guess it’s down to timing, something Severus seems to have a knack for ;)

But like many of his scenes it’s more that it first seems – while it still makes me giggle there is more to it some of it I find quite sad. It basically confirms that what happened thematically in PS/SS will continue throughout the series.

Severus will always be the teacher keeping an extra sharp eye out for Harry.
Severus will have to continue to bear the weight of the boy’s hatred of him, even when it’s unjustified.
That he is someone who is not easily forgiven (within the confines of the story anyway – I’m sure some readers would take a different stance on that mush as I do;))
That prejudice’s often have a poor base yet continue unabated because they are somehow seductive.
That his sharp tongue often masks concern (how like a parent seconds after they find their missing child and are sure of its safety ;)).

There is more but to me this illustrates how richly the character is drawn, the theme’s of his life stretch out further to touch almost every scene in which we see, or hear about, him.

Before reading DH though, this bit of heroism on Snape's part was overshadowed by his attempts earlier in the scene to quiet Harry when he was naming off all the death eaters he witnessed in the graveyard....

I'm still unsure about that...why did Snape appear like he was trying to motion to Harry to shut up about naming off death eaters?

While I can see how one might draw that kind of conclusion - the actual text says nothing about Severus trying to stop Harry naming names. All it says is that when Harry mentions Lucius Malfoy

'Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge.'

There is nothing to indicate what that movement was - that is left for the readers to ponder. :)

I also find the last part of that quote interesting 'Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge.' while it clearly signals that Severus moves his eyes to look at a particular person, Fudge has other connotations associated ‘beating about the bush’ or falsifying, or misrepresenting something. While this is an excellent simile for the MoM it occurs to me that perhaps here it also tells us something about Severus? Maybe that he is trying to hide his concern for a friend, his disappointment that his friend went back, or maybe just that Malfoy plays some part in Snape’s plans we know nothing of. Of course I could be reading far too much into it :lol:

I'm still unsure about that...why did Snape appear like he was trying to motion to Harry to shut up about naming off death eaters?

This was one of the clues pre-DH, I used to argue that Snape was bad, actually.

I have a couple of theories about that. Kittling may be right that Snape was just surprised or disappointed that Malfoy went back. Lucius could have made himself Secret Keeper of Malfoy Manor just as Bill did with Shell Cottage, and then he, Narcissa and Draco might have been safe.

But there are two or even three other possible scenarios, and I think it isn't foreshadowing for Snape being bad, but for the Malfoys actually being better than we thought:

One: Snape really was friends with the Malfoys and knew that Lucius was going to be punished by Voldemort for getting the diary destroyed in CoS. We know that happned because Snape talks about that to Bellatrix. So he just had a startled reaction to the name.

Two: Lucius was Snape's source for information about the Death Eaters and he didn't want Harry to point out the connection so that Fudge would start asking questions. But Fudge is oblivious and doesn't really care what Harry says, so Snape controls himself.

Three: Snape knows the Malfoys are not as totally bad as they might seem, which is foreshadowing for what happens in Deathly Hallows. Obviously Lucius is still a Death Eater, but technically, so is Snape. However, it had been many long years since Voldemort had been around, and at that point Lucius had a son to think about also. It sort of begs the question of whether Lucius went back at all because he was afraid for retaliation on Narcissa and Draco.

Because here's the thing - Snape says that his Dark Mark has been burning all year and getting stronger. Harry sees Snape saying that in the Pensieve chapter of GoF, and we know that Karkaroff was terrified. I think it's possible that the Malfoys were also freaking out, and when Harry told Fudge that Lucius was in the graveyard, Snape realized that Malfoy had made a bad decision to go back, which goes back to Kittling's idea.

Kittling: I love that scene, too. I think many believe that Snape was overreacting to what the boys did, but I've always thought that what Snape says mirrors what Molly Weasley says in her howler the next day. It's nearly the same wording.

It reminds me of how you might feel if you were looking after an underage child and they ran in front of car. You wouldn't pat them on the head and hug them - you'd be scared and you'd scold them for doing it because it is dangerous. As a parent, I totally get that.

The thing about that post SIP, imo at least, is that it illustrates how multilayered Severus is. Any one of those ideas could be true but at the same time they all could be true. It reminds me of Rickman's comment about playing Severus - that there is always so much to think about, the internal monologue holds so many different thoughts and I think this is obvious reading the books :)

I really like the ideas you have come up with they seem plausible to me. I particularly like the idea that it might be hinting that the Malfoy’s are not as bad as we think they are – its good for me to be reminded that it’s not just Severus who suffers from being seen only through the ‘Harry filter’. :tu:

Yeah, Snape really is a complex guy! :lol:

Thanks for the intelligent, clearly well thought-out replies, kittling and silver ink pot. :) :tu:

I loved Snape's introduction in COS too. :lol: Definitely one of his best introductions in the books.

Speaking of COS and Lucius and Snape being friends and the diary plot...

Do you think Lucius told Snape about his chamber of secrets opening diary plot? It would make sense for Lucius to inform his good friend within Hogwarts about the diary scheme...

Dumbledore seemed well-aware of the diary plot in HBP in great detail..

Perhaps, Lucius told Snape and Snape told Dumbledore but Dumbledore let it go because he wanted to give Harry another chance to test his strength? Would Dumbledore do something like this? (maybe this belongs in the Dumbledore thread :whistle:) Maybe Dumbledore was the reason the Basilisk never actually got to it's victims and only managed to petrify them?

So what do you think, would Lucius have told Snape of the COS plot?

I don't think Snape knew anything about the Diary plot because Snape would have warned Dumbledore that Ginny Weasley had something belonging to Voldemort, and we know that he didn't.

But obviously, Snape knows something is going on at Hogwarts because of the "Writing on the Wall" and the stuff he hears from Draco about attacks on Mudbloods (a word Snape doesn't like anymore, as we know from DH when he chastises Phineas Nigellus for using it). If he could have stopped it all, he would have, in my opinion.

He himself makes the Mandrake Restorative Potion to help all the Muggleborns and even Mrs. Norris, and gets angry at the thought of Lockhart trying to do it instead of himself.

It's clear to me from HBP that neither Snape nor Lucius knew what a horcrux was, and they certainly didn't know the Diary was one of Voldemort's soul-bits. Dumbledore says:

“No doubt he (Voldemort) thought that Lucius would not dare do anything with the Horcrux other than guard it carefully, but he was counting too much upon Lucius’s fear of a master who had been gone for years and whom Lucius believed dead. Of course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was. I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted.”
HBP, pg. 508

ETA: One more quote about Lucius and the Diary - this is from Dumbledore in HBP - I had that wrong in my last post. I thought it was from Spinner's End but it comes from Dumbledore when he is talking to Harry:

"[Voldemort] was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold,"
-HBP, pg. 474

Snape must have told him what Voldemort's reaction to the destruction of the Diary was, and that would have happened when Snape returned from the Graveyard at the end of GoF. So that was another clue for Dumbledore about the horcruxes, but he didn't tell Snape what it was.

I can't pick my favourite Sevvie scene - I just can't! I think it is perhaps because there was no one moment at which you thought "Aha!" - he was so well written and his scenes so carefully put together to maintain the ambiguity.

My favourite Severus line has to be his response to Dumbledore's request to kill him

"Do you want me to do it now or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?" (paraphrased)

That is just brilliant! Classic Rowling - classic Snape.

For me it is also important because a lot of people do not like his humour because it is hurtful to others and to some it appears that he really means to be nasty, but here we see his sense of humour - that razor sharp wit that shows he isn't just being nasty to people, he does have a sense of humour. I even wonder if Rowling put it in to "explain" his sense of humour - that just as he didn't intend to actually kill Dumbledore straight away here he didn't intend to do all the other things he suggested in his jokes.

I love Snape's sense of humour and I love that it scares the pants off the kids - and I love that IMO he loves that it scares the pants of the kids! In this vein I also love the scene when Harry comes out with the "There's no need to call me 'sir' professor" because I think Snape really thought this was funny - his response was an almost mechanical - "Detention - I don't take cheek from anyone" he didn't seem to take it personally at all, which is how I think that Severus expected his comments to be taken.

I even wonder if Rowling put it in to "explain" his sense of humour - that just as he didn't intend to actually kill Dumbledore straight away here he didn't intend to do all the other things he suggested in his jokes.

Oh yes! I so agree with that! :) It's like this line from OotP:

"I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your O.W.L., or suffer my... displeasure."

I always laugh when I read that - what does Snape actually do when he feels "displeasure"? Ah - he gives extra homework. What does he do to Crabbe and Goyle when they don't pass their O.W.L.s? He tutors them so they can take their exams over, as we find out when he is talking to Draco in HBP.

I thought Lucius proved himself to be a pretty dangerous and badly behaving man, what with sticking the diary in Ginny's bag and all (prior to Voldy's return), fighting the kids at the MOM and I believe participating with the other death eaters at the Quidditch game.

But just because he was not a good man was apparently not a reason for Snape not to befriend him any longer - as much of a friend as Snape was willing to be anyway. But Snape was aware of Lucius' character as well as the depths of his dark path antics because they had been friends for a very long time - through the first war and all. Lucius is not a totally well rounded character, so those traits he might have had that attracted Snape to him as a friend could entail more than the evil deeds we associate with him. However, I would disagree that he wasn't as bad as Harry believed, I think the canon shows he was.

Harry filter only works so far - a person's actions still remain intact, regardless of what Harry made of them. For example, Snape calling Neville an idiot boy means just that, he called him an idiot boy - whatever his reason - and he was behaving in a completely negative manner in doing so for any reason, imo. In another example, in 7 Potters, Snape elected to use Sectumsempra, and while canon later revealed his true purpose and it being a good one, he still elected to issue the spell and it was a very unwise spell to issue under the circumstances for any reason, imo. Thus Harry filter and later revelations cannot serve to whitewash some of the negative acts and behavior Snape displayed, imo, they remain just as negative and indicative of his character no matter what reason he might have had for doing so. And notable is that there are no accusations of a Harry filter if he sees something good about Snape, which seems unfair to Harry - in that he only has a filtering problem when he sees something bad.

Thanks for the intelligent, clearly well thought-out replies, kittling and silver ink pot. :) :tu:

Thank you :blush:

Speaking of COS and Lucius and Snape being friends and the diary plot...

Do you think Lucius told Snape about his chamber of secrets opening diary plot? It would make sense for Lucius to inform his good friend within Hogwarts about the diary scheme...

Dumbledore seemed well-aware of the diary plot in HBP in great detail..

Perhaps, Lucius told Snape and Snape told Dumbledore but Dumbledore let it go because he wanted to give Harry another chance to test his strength? Would Dumbledore do something like this? (maybe this belongs in the Dumbledore thread :whistle:) Maybe Dumbledore was the reason the Basilisk never actually got to it's victims and only managed to petrify them?

So what do you think, would Lucius have told Snape of the COS plot?

It's a good question, and I can see where the idea that Lucius might have talked to Severus about his plot comes from, so much so I've been flicking through CoS since you posted. :lol:

We know the Draco knew almost nothing just that the chamber would be opened again & that it had been 50 years previously and that a muggle-born had died.

I am certain that if Lucius had told Severus anything, that information would have been passed on to Dumbledore. I can't help thinking that if that had happened Dumbledore would have done something - unless he wanted to draw the diary out into the open; after all it wasn't very easy to get hold of with Lucius guarding it.

Reading through CoS/18 there is nothing to indicate that Lucius's part in events was known befor Harry understands Dobby's hint's, but Dubledore could just have been playing his cards close to his chest again I suppose :)

In the end though I have to say I think Lucius probably did not tell Severus about it before hand - although I will confess that I am not 10% sure of it, I seem to be plauged by a nagging doubt as I write which I can not place. I hawever have no doubts at all that after the events were over Severus & Lucius had at least one conversation about it adn I credit Dumbledores knowledge in HBP about the events in CoS down to that - information gathered after the fact. :)

"I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your O.W.L., or suffer my... displeasure."

I always laugh when I read that - what does Snape actually do when he feels "displeasure"? Ah - he gives extra homework. What does he do to Crabbe and Goyle when they don't pass their O.W.L.s? He tutors them so they can take their exams over, as we find out when he is talking to Draco in HBP.

:rotfl: Fearsome displeasure indeed!

Well, out of all my Snape scenes my favorite (since I can only pick one) has to be when him and Lily are on the train to Hogwarts...When Snape tries to make Lily feel better after her fight with her sister, he says something to the effect of "you and me, are going hogwarts!" Or something like that...but Lily cracks a smile, and he makes her feel better. That to me is the inner snape, the one that only someone he loved got to see. It was a very tender and beautiful moment from a boy who did not have the easist upbringing.

I could go on allllllllll day about my favorite Snape scenes.

Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengeance. He betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the fold."

Thanks for posting the quote, SIP! Somehow until I read it in the context of your post...it did not occur to me that this description of Karkaroff fits Severus as well. :lol: (Though he has managed to hide it better).

I'm still unsure about that...why did Snape appear like he was trying to motion to Harry to shut up about naming off death eaters?

As others have already pointed out, the movement is described very sparsely. We don't know if Snape was planning to shush Harry, interject with his own remark or question, was just reacting in surprise, or what.

I've though he might have actually wanted to ask something, and then thought better of it. He knows in that scene that within the next hour or so he's going to be having his own close encounter to Voldemort, so any information Harry provides on Voldemort's state of mind, intentions, etc. is of vital interest to him.

There's also the point that in the meeting, the DEs all appeared in masks. If this is the standard practice, Snape may wonder how Harry could name any names. But he'd not want to betray his interest, or hurt Harry's credibility, by asking.

Argh, I got in here late! :argh:

You guys have listed off some of my biggest favorites, but I'd also like to mention the scene in PoA where Snape catches Harry after the mud-flinging incident. Harry is trying his best to look innocent, while Snape is getting information out of him just by his expressions.

"So!" said Snape, his long nostrils quivering. "Is this another treasured gift from Mr Weasley? Or is it – something else? A letter perhaps, written in invisible ink? Or – instructions to get into Hogsmeade without passing the Dementors?"
Harry blinked. Snape's eyes gleamed.

:lol: Snape was probably just waiting for Harry to give a signal that he had guessed right.

Regarding Snape's sudden movement in GoF when Lucius is named: I'm inclined to believe it's because Lucius is one of his big information sources. Snape has remained close to the Malfoys and may still feel friendly to them, but I think his larger concern was getting good information-- and at that time, Lucius was still at least somewhat in favor. :hmm:

I think it is too hard to call without more knowledge about Lucius. They may have had a similar interest in potions or whatever, that had nothing to do with information or values or what have you. Narcissa's description together with her behavior made it seem like Snape hand't just hung around acting, because he wasn't acting all that wonderful in that moment either. So I get the feeling there was more to the friendship than Snape trying to use Lucius or visa versa - although that would likely be a part of it also.

scene, for one there’s too many to choose from, but mainly because Severus is such a complicated character that different scenes show different dimensions of the character imo so one scene will never be enough to give the weight the character possesses imo.

It's the mathematician in me, I like to rank things. :lol: But I do have lots of scenes I like a lot!

But like many of his scenes it’s more that it first seems – while it still makes me giggle there is more to it some of it I find quite sad. It basically confirms that what happened thematically in PS/SS will continue throughout the series.

Severus will always be the teacher keeping an extra sharp eye out for Harry.
Severus will have to continue to bear the weight of the boy’s hatred of him, even when it’s unjustified.
That he is someone who is not easily forgiven (within the confines of the story anyway – I’m sure some readers would take a different stance on that mush as I do;))
That prejudice’s often have a poor base yet continue unabated because they are somehow seductive.
That his sharp tongue often masks concern (how like a parent seconds after they find their missing child and are sure of its safety ;)).

:tu: Yes, this is a recurring thing in Snape's scenes. The PoA scene in the Shack is another where these issues come up. We are heavily directed by the narration to ascribe all of Snape's unpleasantness in the scene towards his "old school grudges". But we can also see that Snape has suspected Lupin of helping Sirius all year, and Sirius is believed to be a real threat to Harry (and the whole school). I love the detail that he is still out of breath, after eavesdropping on Lupin's explanations to Sirius and the Trio. I take it to mean that like Harry before him (when he was worried about rescuing Ron) Snape too ran down the passage when he began to suspect Harry was inside.

Snape does run down to the willow. Harry and Hermione see it when they use the Time-Turner:

Barely two minutes later, the castle doors flew open yet again, and Snape came charging out of them, running toward the Willow.
Harry's fists clenched as they watched Snape skid to a halt next to the tree, looking around. He grabbed the cloak and held it up.
"Get your filthy hands off it," Harry snarled under his breath.

:rolleyes: Nice, Harry. Real nice.

Ooh! I love this discussion! :love:

I have many fave Snape scenes. :D

I don't know which is the best for I love all of them, but right now I can think of 2 very powerful scenes, where Snape exhibited his inner self quite nakedly.

One is the Silver Doe, where Snape is in command of Harry, all without a word. And that Patronus is the outward expression of Snape's love for Lily, and it's amazing, because Harry understands that at a deeper level, where he does not know why, but he knows he does. That is he trusts the doe with his life and knows instinctively that she would not harm him. Which means that there is a Snape that Harry is capable of trusting with his life and the Snape he sees at that time as a murderer and before as a nasty git is not the real Snape. That is what Harry understood later IMO.

In that scene there are Harry, Snape and Lily. And what they share between them is pure love.

Snape's love for Lily, Lily's love for Harry and Harry's love for Lily and the meeting point or the outward expression is the doe as it were. I don't know if I'm explaining it okay, but this is a foreshadow of the acceptance and the place I feel Harry accords Snape and through him, Lily.

The other scene is in stark contrast the meeting on the hill.

If the former was all about love, this one is pure despair without an end in sight for Snape. Snape blleds in this scene, because he has woken up and found the world upside down it seems. What I like in this scene, is Snape's pure courage, which we see for the first time so openly and yet it is overshadowed by another emotion, which is his despair of his betrayal.

And Dumbledore's disgust actually does nothing for him, because in that scene, his own disgust with himself is greater than Dumbledore's. He simply stares back, because that disgust is milder than his own.

He refuses solace or comfort in that scene; not that Dumbledore offers any, and from that time he does anything and everything to reduce the guilt in his heart. This scene shows Snape's strength for me, while the former shows his love.

Well ya got a cop the kid a break, it was a family relic. I don't think Snape was running to save anyone, I think he was running to capture two people. He seemed more concerned about doing that than rescuing anyone considering he hid under the cloak for quite sometime eavesdropping before revealing his presence. And he didn't reveal his presence to rescue anyone either - it was because the conversation turned to childhood antics.

You guys have listed off some of my biggest favorites, but I'd also like to mention the scene in PoA where Snape catches Harry after the mud-flinging incident.

You could always post about why YOU like our favorite scenes, you know! We don't all have to like different ones. :D

Harry is trying his best to look innocent, while Snape is getting information out of him just by his expressions.

I especially enjoy the moment in this scene where Snape is looking straight at Harry and Harry wonders if Snape can read his mind. So he stares right back into Snape's eyes. :lol:

I think this also ties in with what Kittling pointed out in her post. The chapter in which it occcurs is called "Snape's Grudge", the narrator "helpfully" trying to suggest a motivation to the readers. (And I do agree there is a "grudge" behind his ressentment of James, but Snape by no means seeks Harry out in order to raghim about his father).

The scene begins because Snape learns that Harry has left the safety of the school for Hogsmeade, where he is in danger (all, Snape included, believe) from Black, and goes on for quite some time before James ever comes up (once Snape is completely fed up with being repeatedly and obviously lied to).

Well, out of all my Snape scenes my favorite (since I can only pick one) has to be when him and Lily are on the train to Hogwarts...When Snape tries to make Lily feel better after her fight with her sister, he says something to the effect of "you and me, are going hogwarts!" Or something like that...but Lily cracks a smile, and he makes her feel better. That to me is the inner snape, the one that only someone he loved got to see. It was a very tender and beautiful moment from a boy who did not have the easist upbringing.

I could go on allllllllll day about my favorite Snape scenes.

Oh please do! I'll make popcorn and eat it while I read them! :)

I've though he might have actually wanted to ask something, and then thought better of it. He knows in that scene that within the next hour or so he's going to be having his own close encounter to Voldemort, so any information Harry provides on Voldemort's state of mind, intentions, etc. is of vital interest to him.

There's also the point that in the meeting, the DEs all appeared in masks. If this is the standard practice, Snape may wonder how Harry could name any names. But he'd not want to betray his interest, or hurt Harry's credibility, by asking.

Good points - I didn't think about him wanting to ask a questions, but it stands to reason and is a parallel to Barty Crouch who wants to know how the Dark Lord rewarded people. Snape would indeed want to know how people were being punished or even killed. Poor Snape!

Doesn't Voldemort unmask Lucius to shame him? I don't have my book handy for once.

He refuses solace or comfort in that scene; not that Dumbledore offers any, and from that time he does anything and everything to reduce the guilt in his heart. This scene shows Snape's strength for me, while the former shows his love.
Of course my favorite word at the end is "Anything." It just shows that he is completely sincere. I believe Dumbledore realized he could trust Snape after hearing that.

Harry's fists clenched as they watched Snape skid to a halt next to the tree, looking around. He grabbed the cloak and held it up.
"Get your filthy hands off it," Harry snarled under his breath.
Ignisia: I like that because Harry doesn't realize at that point that the Cloak is one of the Deathly Hallows. At least Snape got to use one of them, even if he was never Master of the Elder Wand. The Cloak's power is that it can protect others besides yourself - so it's interesting that in this case it's Snape.

One is the Silver Doe, where Snape is in command of Harry, all without a word. And that Patronus is the outward expression of Snape's love for Lily, and it's amazing, because Harry understands that at a deeper level, where he does not know why, but he knows he does. That is he trusts the doe with his life and knows instinctively that she would not harm him. Which means that there is a Snape that Harry is capable of trusting with his life and the Snape he sees at that time as a murderer and before as a nasty git is not the real Snape. That is what Harry understood later IMO.

:tu: :agree:
That whole scene has a sort of spiritual touch to it. Harry is aware on an unconscious level on so many truths that he later comes to learn. From feeling that the doe is familiar to believing that someone is watchig him from afar. I think the doe sort of bridges a connection between Harry and Snape, even when Harry still believes the man to be a loyal DE.


You could always post about why YOU like our favorite scenes, you know! We don't all have to like different ones. :D

That would probably be the longest post ever. :lol: I love practically every Snape scene.

But I would like to mention again the scene from GoF where Snape reveals to Fudge his Mark, because that one was a big clue we had before DH that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore. A loyal DE would not help Dumbledore persuade Fudge, and a Snape out for himself wouldn't do it either because he's about to go back to Voldemort with that memory fresh in his mind. Snape was no doubt irritated by Fudge's stupidity and wanted Voldemort's return known as soon as possible.

I think this also ties in with what Kittling pointed out in her post. The chapter in which it occcurs is called "Snape's Grudge", the narrator "helpfully" trying to suggest a motivation to the readers. (And I do agree there is a "grudge" behind his ressentment of James, but Snape by no means seeks Harry out in order to raghim about his father).

The scene begins because Snape learns that Harry has left the safety of the school for Hogsmeade, where he is in danger (all, Snape included, believe) from Black, and goes on for quite some time before James ever comes up (once Snape is completely fed up with being repeatedly and obviously lied to).

Yeah, Snape's original motive was definitely keeping Harry safe. He starts by telling Harry the situation and giving him a chance to tell the truth. When Harry doesn't, he says


"So," he said, straightening up again. "Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences.

I particularly love how he uses the word "worry". He appears angry and definitely is, but that one word shows Harry long before DH that Snape has some concern for his safety.

Then he goes into James, probably because he knows what Harry has done and sees the boy continue to lie to him-- which would definitely bring back to him memories of James trying to worm his way out of punishment for some stunt or other.

Ignisia: I like that because Harry doesn't realize at that point that the Cloak is one of the Deathly Hallows. At least Snape got to use one of them, even if he was never Master of the Elder Wand. The Cloak's power is that it can protect others besides yourself - so it's interesting that in this case it's Snape.

Good point :tu: Reminds me of how Slytherin Severus gets to hold Gryffindor's sword.

One is the Silver Doe, where Snape is in command of Harry, all without a word. And that Patronus is the outward expression of Snape's love for Lily, and it's amazing, because Harry understands that at a deeper level, where he does not know why, but he knows he does. That is he trusts the doe with his life and knows instinctively that she would not harm him. Which means that there is a Snape that Harry is capable of trusting with his life and the Snape he sees at that time as a murderer and before as a nasty git is not the real Snape. That is what Harry understood later IMO.:tu: Beautifully expressed! Again it is a case of Harry trusting Snape when he doesn't know it is Snape. Snape had built up this outwardly unpleasant persona that causes people - Harry included - to dislike him. Take that away and Harry can trust him, like him and appreciate his humour. It is also IMO very symbolic of the way Severus works - alone and unappreciated - he just gets on with it, which makes Draco's accusation of him wanting all the glory for himself so ironic.

:tu: :agree:

But I would like to mention again the scene from GoF where Snape reveals to Fudge his Mark, because that one was a big clue we had before DH that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore. A loyal DE would not help Dumbledore persuade Fudge, and a Snape out for himself wouldn't do it either because he's about to go back to Voldemort with that memory fresh in his mind. Snape was no doubt irritated by Fudge's stupidity and wanted Voldemort's return known as soon as possible.


:tu: Yes, one of my favourites also. It was my ironclad proof that Severus cannot be a 'bad guy' before DH. He really didn't need to do that. It is one thing to have most people know that he was a DE, but to 'parade' the fact like that in front of the minister...


My other favourites are the childhood memories with Lily. Yet all the possibilities in the wide world open in front of him. I liked that state of innocence of Severus.


Oh, forgot:

I love the exchange between him and Harry in his first lesson as DADA teacher. Love it from both sides....

New thread is up. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=120410)