Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Thank you for the quote Colonel Fubster!

I think that is a very good argument against the theory that Snape was a knowing co-conspirator in a baby-killing scheme.

And in the end, if Snape had not conveyed what he heard to Voldemort, the prophecy would never have been fulfilled (will mark him as his equal), and thus would be moot.

And even the power that Harry has to vanquish the dark lord involves Snape as well. If he hadn't made the request for Lily then Voldemort wouldn't have given her the chance to live, and her sacrifice would not have conjured up the magical protection for Harry. It makes it more interesting that he is partly responsible for Harry being targeted by delivering the first half of the prophecy, and also being partly responsible for Harry surviving as well...

ETA: Yes, thanks for the quote. I was too lazy to type it out. ;)

And even the power that Harry has to vanquish the dark lord involves Snape as well. If he hadn't made the request for Lily then Voldemort wouldn't have given her the chance to live, and her sacrifice would not have conjured up the magical protection for Harry. Exactly! :tu:

The "will be born" is in the second part of the prophecy which Snape did not overhear. One could think that the person was born at the end of July, was approaching (physically nearing closer) and was born to people who defied Voldemort. Voldemort was actively wreaking havoc for quite a while before this, so at this point without hearing the rest of the prophecy, one could make a different conjecture about it, and think these are people from Voldemort's past and not his present or future.

So that's how I was looking at it.

:agree: I think Voldemort when he got hold of the half prophecy, started hunting down all those couples who thrice defied him and then not finding anyone with a child who was born on the last day of July and/or the parents having thrice defied him, probably came to the conclusion that the birth would occur in the future, especially since there were couples who had thrice defied him and could potentially have children.

That will also explain the time difference between when the prophecy was told and when Voldemort chose. He may have spent the time in between searching.

And in the end, if Snape had not conveyed what he heard to Voldemort, the prophecy would never have been fulfilled (will mark him as his equal), and thus would be moot.

:agree:. And therein lies the most material fact of all, imo.

And in the end, if Snape had not conveyed what he heard to Voldemort, the prophecy would never have been fulfilled (will mark him as his equal), and thus would be moot.

:agree: Snape not only helped the prophecy fulfil itself, he also ensured Harry's survival by asking Voldemort to spare Lily. Otherwise Harry would have died along with his parents. In the end Snape died to made Voldemort think he was the Master of the EW and helped Harry vanquish Voldemort forever IMO.

From the start to the finish, it has been Snape all the way; from handing over the prophecy, to helping Harry fulfil it IMO.

And even the power that Harry has to vanquish the dark lord involves Snape as well. If he hadn't made the request for Lily then Voldemort wouldn't have given her the chance to live, and her sacrifice would not have conjured up the magical protection for Harry. It makes it more interesting that he is partly responsible for Harry being targeted by delivering the first half of the prophecy, and also being partly responsible for Harry surviving as well...


:agree: Snape not only helped the prophecy fulfil itself, he also ensured Harry's survival by asking Voldemort to spare Lily. Otherwise Harry would have died along with his parents. In the end Snape died to made Voldemort think he was the Master of the EW and helped Harry vanquish Voldemort forever IMO.

From the start to the finish, it has been Snape all the way; from handing over the prophecy, to helping Harry fulfil it IMO.

So there is an element of destiny in the way Snape's life intertwined with Harry's. Even though Snape tried everything he could to keep the Prophecy from occurring, things happened that were out of his control.

I keep thinking about that Prayer of Serenity - Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

As Dumbledore says in HBP, Snape made a terrible mistake, the worst of his life, for which he felt extreme remorse. He tried to do the things he could to make a difference, but there were things out of his control - Voldemort's interpretation and the Secret Keeper switch. The prophecy played out in spite of everything they did to try and change it.

Yet Snape still had the courage to try and change the things he could change, but he was also wise enough to know his limitations. He couldn't save everyone from Voldemort, but he could try to save some of them, as he does with Draco and Harry.

He couldn't be a comic-book action hero guy, but he could be a clever spy playing mind-games with Bella and Voldemort. He knew his strengths and used them to the maximum.

Peter was a betrayer of the highest caliber in that he betrayed the very people who trusted him. But he was no more than a pawn between two powerful forces and he was weak. Also in a sense his hand was forced. While none of his friends ever expected for his life to be in jeopardy it really was. ...And we know nothing about Peter. What of his family? Did Voldemort threaten his family? Or maybe He threatened Sirius and Remus as well? Perhaps he threatened torture? His decision I'm sure was not an easy one.

Flimsey Cauldron: Peter Pettigrew let the Dark Lord into the house to kill the Potters, and then in PoA Peter made sure the Dark Lord would return. The Dark Lord may have bullied him into the first traitorous act, but how do you explain the second one? Who was bullying him in GoF when he was living with the Dark Lord?

Peter had to make a decision to physically go and seek out Voldemort all the way in Albania. Was that an easy decision? Who was being threatened then? Peter also tricked Bertha Jorkins into being a victim of Legillimency which led to her death. He also killed Cedric Diggory in cold blood - while being bullied by whom? Little Babymort?

Up until the minute Peter put the baby in the cauldron, he had a choice - and he made the wrong one, and it caused all the deaths that came after due to the Dark Lord.

To compare Peter's string of horribly bad ideas and crimes to Snape's redemptive arc is puzzling to me. :huh: To me they are opposites going in opposite directions. Yes, Snape was stronger than Peter - strong enough to do the right things for the right reasons, in my opinion. I don't feel sorry for Peter in any way whatsoever.

So there is an element of destiny in the way Snape's life intertwined with Harry's. Even though Snape tried everything he could to keep the Prophecy from occurring, things happened that were out of his control.

I think so. Everything worked out towards the fulfilment of the prophecy. First the prophecy was made; then the child was identified/marked as the child of the prophecy; Voldemort came and tried to make the prophecy work the first time, but destiny intervened, because Harry was a baby. Snape got the request for Lily, which kept Harry alive.

Even in the Potters deaths, Lily is without a wand to defend herself, thereby making her death a sacrifice, neither refusing or accepting Voldemort's choice for her to step aside. Had Lily accepted Voldemort's choice, the magic which was started by Snape's desperate request and Voldemort's agreement to honour it, would have been completed and Harry would have died.

Had Lily refused the choice, too, she would have died and her death would have been like James, brave but unable to save Harry.

But Lily, instead begged for her child and when Voldemort killed her, he was breaking ancient magic which he himself invoked when he decided to honour Snape's request.

Then Voldemort became a spirit and the prophecy gave Harry time to grow up. The Prophecy stopped interference when Harry reached adulthood, which was when he was 17, and then pitched him into the war, which was then a war between 2 persons of that prophecy.

Voldemort had his strengths which he had cultivated over the years, while Harry had his, taught to him by Dumbledore and helped along by Snape.

In that final confrontation, Harry won, because of the efforts made by Snape and Dumbledore to save him.

The story of Harry Potter IMO started from the time Snape overheard the prophecy and ended in Hogwarts with the death of Voldemort.

And all the most important points of the prophecy was fulfilled by Snape. He was the one entrusted as it were, by the prophecy for the most important job, of making the other side aware of the prophecy, without which, the prophecy could not be fulfilled and Voldemort defeated.

Snape was the balance, the go between, the informer for both sides, keeping both sides aware of each others plans and yet fighting for one side alone.

That side won the war IMO.

I keep thinking about that Prayer of Serenity - Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

What a lovely, lovely saying. I think this applies to Snape, Dumbledore and Harry. Harry accepted things he could not change, he had the heart to live and let live; Snape came in the middle, he changed everything he could for the better and Dumbledore came at the top of it all; he knew and had the wisdom to know the difference between good and evil and knew when the change had arrived and took on Snape on the hill to help him change the nature of the war IMO.

To compare Peter's string of horribly bad ideas and crimes to Snape's redemptive arc is puzzling to me. :huh: To me they are opposites going in opposite directions. Yes, Snape was stronger than Peter - strong enough to do the right things for the right reasons, in my opinion. I don't feel sorry for Peter in any way whatsoever.

I would agree that Peter and Snape were headed in opposite directions, but I think that is precisely why they are very comparable characters. JKR indicated they were both vulnerable and insecure, resulting in their seeking power (interview). But I don't think the similarity stops there - Snape when young started where Peter ended up, imo and they converged somewhere in the middle of the storyline, imo. Right at the precise moment when Snape was making the vow with Narcissa to kill Dumbledore in Draco's place if necessary or die (HBP). Peter had fallen to a subservient position, not only to Snape, but within the Death Eaters as a whole at that time, but strikingly clear by his position in Snape's home.

I feel both were shown to be in a very precarious point in life in that moment - and it helps to show that while Snape had progressed to serving Dumbledore, his loyalties were still greyed by acts such as that he undertook with Narcissa, imo. And Peter's new position gave support to his loyalties being greyed by his position, imo. Their paths traveled onward and in the end, Peter was still serving Voldemort, but showed a moment of betrayal in releasing Harry before his hand killed him (called regret by Harry and Dumbledore), that betrayal signifying the light that was still within him, imo - and Snape was still serving Dumbledore by the end, but willing nonetheless to follow Dumbledore's schemes, even where he found them shockingly lacking in morality, imo, symbolizing the dark that was still within him, imo.

The other point of convergence happens when they are young, a year apart, when Voldy drafted Peter as a spy and then Dumbledore drafted Snape for the same purpose when he went to him (DH) - backstory, included, but outside of the scope of the story in present tense. From there they venture off, but the above noted second convergence to me shows their paths had not drifted all that far apart in ways (imo).

Characterwise, both men were similar in their treatment of others (personality wise), imo, and disliked by the majority, imo. Also, they were both described unattractively in canon, imo, and had distinctive modes of speech (squeal and macabre), imo. Although their reactions differed in some ways, and I feel Peter showed his insecurities outwardly in a more blatant fashion. Too, unless I am mistaken, both died having been attacked at the neck by an instrument of Voldemort, and were grasping at that part of their anatomy (DH). So I think JKR highlighted them together to stress their similarities because there was no other reason to have them living together in HBP, imo. I think it was done for reasons of symbolism alone as the matter was never addressed outright in canon as to why, how long, or in what capacity they were living together other than Snape's statement that Peter was there to assist him and Peter's indication that it didn't extend to service, but his behavior indicating that it just might, imo. Still, nothing conclusive was ever given in canon about the situation, imo, and I feel JKR was simply making a symbolic comparison of two similar characters, in a vicarious passage through darkness and light, while unable to fully release either, imo.

I don't know in which way Snape and Peter can be compared, except that they were both DEs at one time. Snape was as different from Peter in character like chalk from cheese IMO.

I doubt Peter even knew the meaning of remorse or redumption, if he knew affection, love or courage.

While with the Marauders I understand he may not have learnt anything, because of the way they treated him, I also feel Peter was okay with this kind of treatment, preferring to get back at them when he joined a stronger person (in this case Voldmeort). Which he succeeded pretty well, I must say.

While with the Marauders I understand he may not have learnt anything, because of the way they treated him, I also feel Peter was okay with this kind of treatment, preferring to get back at them when he joined a stronger person (in this case Voldmeort). Which he succeeded pretty well, I must say.

Well Peter never said that in canon, however, if true, it was another way in which he and Snape were similar, imo. If Peter believed them to be terrible friends, his response was to do what he accused them of and be a terrible friend - betraying them; and Snape who accused them of using their numbers as an advantage to attack him in HBP, if true, responded by doing what he accused them of and used his position of power as a DE and professor to attack muggles and muggleborns and the children, respectively, imo. I feel both behaved in a hypocritical manner in that regard, assuming Peter even felt that way and Snape spoke the truth (Although I think canon proves Snape's statement untrue and there is no canon that Peter was motivated by his relationship with his friends, imo). However, it would be rather ironic if they shared that similarity as well.

WWB: I will agree that Peter and Snape both felt weak at times.

But if we look at the timeline of how things occurred, Snape was leaving Voldemort as Peter was joining him. Snape left a year before the Potters died but stayed on as a spy to help keep them safe. In that same year, Peter started passing the knowledge of their movements (according to McGonagall in PoA) to Voldemort.

To me, Snape and Peter are ships passing in the night there - going in opposite directions. Snape then lived a useful life at Hogwarts out in the open after the fall of Voldemort, while Peter lived as a rat. I see no comparison in that at all.

In GoF, Peter was bound to Voldemort even tighter, especially after receiving the silver hand which had a mind of it's own. It's sort of like an Unbreakable Vow because the minute Peter tried to show remorse and felt a real emotion about his past and Harry, it killed him. That is all Peter got from Voldemort.

On the other hand, Snape stayed with Dumbledore and tried to repair his soul by helping Harry of his own free will.

I think Free Will is the huge difference between them. When Peter had free will, he chose to help Voldemort return - the "Servant returned to the Master." When Snape had a chance to flee Hogwarts in GoF, he made the choice to be brave and stay there protecting Harry (as we see him in Barty's Foe Glass at the end of the book), and then to return to Voldemort as a spy for Dumbledore. He had nothing to gain - not even a silver hand.

The story of Harry Potter IMO started from the time Snape overheard the prophecy and ended in Hogwarts with the death of Voldemort.

And all the most important points of the prophecy was fulfilled by Snape. He was the one entrusted as it were, by the prophecy for the most important job, of making the other side aware of the prophecy, without which, the prophecy could not be fulfilled and Voldemort defeated.

Snape was the balance, the go between, the informer for both sides, keeping both sides aware of each others plans and yet fighting for one side alone.

That side won the war IMO.

Great analysis, TGW! :relax:

Thanks SIP. :)

If Peter believed them to be terrible friends, his response was to do what he accused them of and be a terrible friend - betraying them; and Snape who accused them of using their numbers as an advantage to attack him in HBP, if true, responded by doing what he accused them of and used his position of power as a DE and professor to attack muggles and muggleborns and the children, respectively, imo. I feel both behaved in a hypocritical manner in that regard, assuming Peter even felt that way and Snape spoke the truth (Although I think canon proves Snape's statement untrue and there is no canon that Peter was motivated by his relationship with his friends, imo). However, it would be rather ironic if they shared that similarity as well.

I disagree. Completely. Peter took revenge on his so called friends, because they treated him worse than a doormat. When he managed to latch on to the bigger bully, in this case Voldemort, he not only left the Marauders, but also ensured they would die or at least suffer. He succeeded IMO.

His reason; nothing except that he needed to keep Voldemort happy. Otherwise Voldemort would not protect him. When he was with the Marauders, he went along with whatever they did, taking any derogatory comments, because he needed their support.

When he left them and went to Voldemort he did the same because at that time he needed Voldemort's support.

All along his reason was utterly selfish, without a sense of right and wrong, all the time justifying himself.

Snape on the other hand, made mistakes, looked at them in the face, when he realised his actions were actually mistakes and he was very wrong in the company he joined, he left them and worked hard to undo them.

As a professor, he was also a spy and what he did, he did keeping that job in mind. I just cannot compare Peter and Snape, when what they did, why they did and how they did are all so different, and, their actions have different reasons and motives as the base IMO.

I was thinking about Snape this morning, and musing on the HBP's Advanced Potion Making book. It told Harry a great deal about who the real Snape was, and as he read it during that year, Harry came to consider the Prince to be like a friend to him. Do you think Snape kept the book in the Potions classroom because it was important to him for some reason? Was it a coincidence that Harry got his hands on it and began to use it?

Do you think Snape kept the book in the Potions classroom because it was important to him for some reason?

I think it may have been. It was the book in which he had created a lot of spells and altered potions. That may have been important to him. Or the book may have been very important when he joined the school as a teacher (he was only 20) and later he may have forgotten about the Book, because he outgrew it.

Was it a coincidence that Harry got his hands on it and began to use it?

It may or may not be. I'm in 2 minds about this. Slughorn gave the books to Harry and Ron. Did he recognise Snape's handwriting and give that book to Harry, knowing that Snape was Lily's friend? I would not put it past Slughorn. This is something he would do.

On the other hand it could be a coincidence too.

Why did Snape leave the Book in the Potions classroom he would never return to? He had left the classroom for the last time; he knew he was not retuning to Potions and yet if that book was important to him, why leave it there, instead of taking it with him?

Maybe the book was not very important to him at that time, since he had far more important things to do.

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I wonder what he thought of Harry using the Book for his spells and using his corrections?

Do you think Snape kept the book in the Potions classroom because it was important to him for some reason?

I'm sure it was. :) You'd have thought he would have kept it under lock and key, with all the potentially explosive information it contained about his own spells. :hmm: And surely he would not have wanted anyone else having access to the secrets of his potion-making brilliance.

Maybe the book was not very important to him at that time, since he had far more important things to do.

Could be. As a double agent, he was of course a very preoccupied man. :cool:

I wonder what he thought of Harry using the Book for his spells and using his corrections?

I would love to know. :eyebrows: :lol:

I was thinking about Snape this morning, and musing on the HBP's Advanced Potion Making book. It told Harry a great deal about who the real Snape was, and as he read it during that year, Harry came to consider the Prince to be like a friend to him.

The book told Harry about Snape's talent, his love of the Dark Arts and probably as Hermione had pointed out his sly character, and that's I think everything the book contained. I think the reason Harry considered the book as a friend is that it had helped him shine in a subject he was always very bad at, it helped him look better in front of all the Slytherins Snape always abused him in front of.

Do you think Snape kept the book in the Potions classroom because it was important to him for some reason? Was it a coincidence that Harry got his hands on it and began to use it?

The Potions classroom was Snape's for a very long time, it was normal that he would keep many personal possessions in there, and I dont think he wanted anyone to lay hands on his book, I think there must've been a lot of other copies in that cupboard that he didnt expect anybody to take an old battered copy that was his. Also his reaction when he found out that Harry had the book, imo proves that he didnt want anybody know about his book let alone Harry.

I'm sure it was. :) You'd have thought he would have kept it under lock and key, with all the potentially explosive information it contained about his own spells. :hmm: And surely he would not have wanted anyone else having access to the secrets of his potion-making brilliance.

I really don't think Snape cared about the spells he had in there, because it was dangerous or anything (the students probably knew a lot more dangerous curses, seeing Draco fought Harry with the Cruciatus) ; if he cared I think it would be he did not want others to access them; but how much did he care about it at the time he was planning to leave teaching is anyone's guess IMO.

I would love to know. :eyebrows: :lol:

I would guess he was half amused and half proud. :)

I really don't think Snape cared about the spells he had in there, because it was dangerous or anything (the students probably knew a lot more dangerous curses, seeing Draco fought Harry with the Cruciatus) ;

Could be.

Although he was horrified and furious that Harry had used Sectumsempra ('such Dark Magic', as Snape called it) on Draco. :shrug:

Since I can anticipate the inevitable response that Snape invented that spell himself, I will say that there is no canon to prove that. :cool:

Of course it's not a nice spell to be using, to put it mildly. :err:

But I will also point out that while Snape the reformed Death Eater had no moral qualms about using Sectumsempra against another Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus (Seven Potters), Snape the reformed Death Eater was sickened by Harry Potter, of all people, using the spell on another student.

I would guess he was half amused and half proud. :)

It would be nice to think so. :cool: :)

As regards Snape and the prophecy: He is the one who sets things in motion. As Dumbledore says the prophecy is only important because Voldemort chose to act on it. So nothing would have happened, the prophecy would have remained unfulfilled if Voldemort had never heard it. But Snape took the prophecy to Voldemort and this started the chain of events. As soon as Voldemort chose to act on the prophecy he effectively caused Harry to be the one who would defeat him. Snape didn't just regret his action of taking the prophecy to Voldemort but actively tried to copunteract it. He first asked Voldemort to spare Lily, which I think is a natural reaction on hearing the news, but that wasn't enough for him. He knew his master would do what he pleased regardless of any request Snape might make, so he still feared for Lily's life and as such went to Dumbledore - a brave move IMO - and gave Dumbledore the information that Voldemort was targetting the Potters. He continued to work from that point onwards to ensure that the prophecy was fulfilled and that Harry defeated Voldemort. He knew and accepted that he may never see that day and as it turned out he didn't. The important thing is that having made the mistake of starting this chain of events he devoted his life to seeing it through, risking his life to ensure the Harry's sucess.

I cannot see any comparison to Peter at all. Peter visited the Potters and continued to pretend to be their friend when he knew they were targetted by Voldemort. To do that to people you don't like is bad enough, but these were supposed to be his friends. I don't buy the "revenge for their poor treatment of him." If he had a problem with their treatment he should have broken off the friendship - as Lily did with Severus when he called her Mudblood. But he accepted their treatment in return for being part of their gang. He deliberately betrayed the Potters. That was his choice. He was working for Voldemort long before they made him secret keeper by his own choice. He could even have refused to be secret keeper if he knew that Voldemort would get the information out of him, but instead he accepted the role as secret keeper and sold them to Voldemort.

Could be.

Although he was horrified and furious that Harry had used Sectumsempra ('such Dark Magic', as Snape called it) on Draco. :shrug:

I think Snape was angry about that because Harry had no business using a spell without knowing what it does, especially the one which says 'For enemies.'.

But I will also point out that while Snape the reformed Death Eater had no moral qualms about using Sectumsempra against another Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus (Seven Potters), Snape the reformed Death Eater was sickened by Harry Potter, of all people, using the spell on another student.

I don't understand this. Could you explain. :)

It would be nice to think so. :cool: :)

I think so. :D

But I will also point out that while Snape the reformed Death Eater had no moral qualms about using Sectumsempra against another Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus (Seven Potters), Snape the reformed Death Eater was sickened by Harry Potter, of all people, using the spell on another student.

That's an interesting point. I see a parallel there between that and Snape killing Dumbledore instead of Draco. He protested at first, but maybe just like Dumbldore who said that Harry's blood (and by extention, Harry himself) was much more precious than his own, maybe Snape, in agreeing to kill Dumbeldore after the latter said they should spare Draco's soul, thought Draco's soul was indeed more urgent a matter than his own; and perhaps he thought the same about Harry - using Sectumsempra himself, he was horrified that Harry should use it. Reinforced by "No Unforgivables from you, Potter!". Maybe Snape, having devoted his whole life to a single goal, had calculated for himself that that goal may justify using certain means, but Harry, who had not so much chosen his goal as having been pushed into it by fate/Voldemort/Dumbledore, and could have a million other things to live for and do with his life, had to be spared certain falls - such as employing Dark Magic - for the sake of his innocence and his soul. This can be seen as another type of protection Snape exercised over Harry.

Though it's a mystery then why Harry's subsequent use of Unforgivables remains unquestioned by the text. :shrug: There goes my theory, I suppose.

Cathy -- I agree. :tu:

What Snape did initially (taking the Prophecy to Voldemort) was bad. :sigh:

What Peter and Voldemort then did was even worse. :no:

I don't understand this. Could you explain. :)

:hmm: I obviously didn't express myself very well. :lol: OK, I'll try this:

Snape was prepared to use Sectumsempra against another Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus (Seven Potters). This is obviously intended by JKR to show us that Snape was trying to act in the interests of Harry and the Order. It was a battle, spells were flying, Snape flung a particularly nasty spell at the other Death Eater. War isn't nice. :whistle: But there's no doubt, according to The Prince's Tale, that he was trying to kill the other Death Eater and not harm George.

So: while this is a nasty spell, Snape's use of it in battle was with good intentions -- or, perhaps it's better to say, the right intentions.

However, he was genuinely horrified by Harry using the exact same spell on Draco. Yoana has put it better than I did:

That's an interesting point. I see a parallel there between that and Snape killing Dumbledore instead of Draco. He protested at first, but maybe just like Dumbldore who said that Harry's blood (and by extention, Harry himself) was much more precious than his own, maybe Snape, in agreeing to kill Dumbeldore after the latter said they should spare Draco's soul, thought Draco's soul was indeed more urgent a matter than his own; and perhaps he thought the same about Harry - using Sectumsempra himself, he was horrified that Harry should use it. Reinforced by "No Unforgivables from you, Potter!". Maybe Snape, having devoted his whole life to a single goal, had calculated for himself that that goal may justify using certain means, but Harry, who had not so much chosen his goal as having been pushed into it by fate/Voldemort/Dumbledore, and could have a million other things to live for and do with his life, had to be spared certain falls - such as employing Dark Magic - for the sake of his innocence and his soul. This can be seen as another type of protection Snape exercised over Harry.

Well, I find that very plausible. :tu:

Though it's a mystery then why Harry's subsequent use of Unforgivables remains unquestioned by the text. :shrug: There goes my theory, I suppose.

Yes, well, Harry's creator gives her Golden Boy a free pass card on that one. :yuhup:

Maybe Snape felt it was acceptable aiming Sectumsempra at a DE, since he had written in his book, "for enemies."

Makes sense. :tu: Everyone else has been more succinct on this point than me. :yuhup:

That's an interesting point. I see a parallel there between that and Snape killing Dumbledore instead of Draco. He protested at first, but maybe just like Dumbldore who said that Harry's blood (and by extention, Harry himself) was much more precious than his own, maybe Snape, in agreeing to kill Dumbeldore after the latter said they should spare Draco's soul, thought Draco's soul was indeed more urgent a matter than his own; and perhaps he thought the same about Harry - using Sectumsempra himself, he was horrified that Harry should use it. Reinforced by "No Unforgivables from you, Potter!". Maybe Snape, having devoted his whole life to a single goal, had calculated for himself that that goal may justify using certain means, but Harry, who had not so much chosen his goal as having been pushed into it by fate/Voldemort/Dumbledore, and could have a million other things to live for and do with his life, had to be spared certain falls - such as employing Dark Magic - for the sake of his innocence and his soul. This can be seen as another type of protection Snape exercised over Harry.

Though it's a mystery then why Harry's subsequent use of Unforgivables remains unquestioned by the text. :shrug: There goes my theory, I suppose.

I do think that both Dumbledore and Snape preferred to keep students from engaging in the needed violence that being in war entails. Certainly it's the duty of responsible adults to do the hard stuff and protect the young. Given the circumstances it was not rational, and they both knew it. But I think Snape was honestly appalled that Harry used Sectumsempra on Draco, since this was between students at school, and Draco could have bled to death. Also, when Snape used the same spell during the 7 Potters episode, he used careful control for a precise result, and ironically, he missed his target. :(

Maybe Snape felt it was acceptable aiming Sectumsempra at a DE, since he had written in his book, "for enemies."

It may or may not be. I'm in 2 minds about this. Slughorn gave the books to Harry and Ron. Did he recognise Snape's handwriting and give that book to Harry, knowing that Snape was Lily's friend? I would not put it past Slughorn. This is something he would do.

I dont think it was that, he knew Harry would return it once he got his own, besides knowing Slughorn I think if he knew it was Snape's he would've been proud to represent it to Harry, he wouldnt just give it to Harry without saying anything, imo.

I wonder what he thought of Harry using the Book for his spells and using his corrections?

Snape was furious when Harry used his spells, judging by what happened the night Dumbledore died:

Mustering all his powers of
concentration, Harry thought, Levi -
"No, Potter!" screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring
backward, hitting the ground hard again, this time his wand flew out of his hand. He
could hear Hagrid yelling and Fang howling as Snape closed in and looked down on him
where he lay, wandless and defenseless as Dumbledore hadl been. Snape's pale face,
illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he
had cursed Dumbledore.
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the
Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would
you? I don't think so . . . no"

Snape was furious when Harry used his spells, judging by what happened the night Dumbledore died:
Well, Snape had a pretty good reason to be an emotional wreck at that moment, given that he was forced into the position of killing his mentor and only friend. In not throttling Harry on the spot after he called him a coward, I think he showed remarkable restraint!
:p

:hmm: I obviously didn't express myself very well. :lol: OK, I'll try this:

Snape was prepared to use Sectumsempra against another Death Eater who was trying to kill Remus (Seven Potters). This is obviously intended by JKR to show us that Snape was trying to act in the interests of Harry and the Order. It was a battle, spells were flying, Snape flung a particularly nasty spell at the other Death Eater. War isn't nice. :whistle: But there's no doubt, according to The Prince's Tale, that he was trying to kill the other Death Eater and not harm George.

So: while this is a nasty spell, Snape's use of it in battle was with good intentions -- or, perhaps it's better to say, the right intentions.

However, he was genuinely horrified by Harry using the exact same spell on Draco. Yoana has put it better than I did

I got it thanks! :)

But again, I have a question. Why did Snape not take the book from Harry that time itself? He did ultimately leave it with Harry.

Did he want Harry to learn from it for the oncoming war?

But again, I have a question. Why did Snape not take the book from Harry that time itself? He did ultimately leave it with Harry.

Harry didn't give the real book back, although Snape requested he do so. :whistle: He tried to palm Snape off with Ron's potions book. :yuhup: Snape saw through this straight away, of course. :lol:

Did he want Harry to learn from it for the oncoming war?

Who knows? :) It's a cool concept. :cool:

Snape was furious when Harry used his spells, judging by what happened the night Dumbledore died:
Snape was furious that Harry used his own spells against him. How he felt about Harry using them against other people is not so clear cut. And did Severus deliberately expose himself as the Half-Blood Prince knowing that Harry had been using the book to sort of try to give Harry some sort of clue or something because he didn't have to tell Harry that he was the HBP. He could have done it when Harry hit Draco with Sectumsempra but didn't, so why did he tell Harry that he was the HBP and why do it at that particular time? Of course it makes a wonderful scene to read, but is there more to it than that?

Maybe Snape felt it was acceptable aiming Sectumsempra at a DE, since he had written in his book, "for enemies."

I dunno, it may be just me; (I think it is), but I think Snape was more furious than horrified that Harry used the spell. I checked the Book; it says Snape spoke to Harry in a tone of cold fury.

I think Snape was angry with the way Harry used the spell without knowing what it could do and without knowing the counter, if the spell had any and he used it on a fellow student who could have bled to death.

--------------

Strangely I am seeing a similarity between the Sectumsempra and the SWM, between Snape and Lily, in the way Snape and Lily dealt with an forbidden act.

In the SWM Snape calls Lily a forbidden word and and Lily breaks off with Snape, without giving him a chance to explain. Lily does not forgive; even knowing the circumstances in which Snape spoke the forbidden word, she simply refused to forgive him. She called him a future death eater and broke off.

In the HBP, Harry casts a forbidden curse, that almost causes the death of another student; had Moaning Myrtle was not there to fetch Snape, Draco would have died; Snape, though does not accuse Harry of murder; he does not say Harry had killing tendencies; he accepts Harry's explanation that he was provoked into cursing, that Harry was horrified, because he really did not know what the curse would do and punished him, but does not break him, by making the punishment horrible or anything.

In both cases forbidden word and curse was used. In one, a whole relationship breaks away, in another, there is a punishment (a very light one) for the offence, but there is also understanding that Harry while doing a wrong thing, nevertheless had reason to defend himself, even though it was in an incorrect manner. Snape took the situation at hand before meteing out the punishment, while I feel Lily disregarded the circumstance in which Snape spoke the forbidden word.

Snape saw through this straight away, of course. :lol:

I agree. That was what I was asking. Snape knew and he still left it with Harry. I wondered why?

I dunno, it may be just me; (I think it is), but I think Snape was more furious than horrified that Harry used the spell. I checked the Book; it says Snape spoke to Harry in a tone of cold fury.

I think Snape was angry with the way Harry used the spell without knowing what it could do and without knowing the counter, if the spell had any and he used it on a fellow student who could have bled to death.

I completely agree with you, Snape certainly was furious with Harry (and rightly so!) but I think it is a reasonable assumption -- and it is only that, an assumption -- that Snape might have felt horror as well.

Strangely I am seeing a similarity between the Sectumsempra and the SWM, between Snape and Lily, in the way Snape and Lily dealt with an forbidden act.

In the SWM Snape calls Lily a forbidden word and and Lily breaks off with Snape, without giving him a chance to explain. Lily does not forgive; even knowing the circumstances in which Snape spoke the forbidden word, she simply refused to forgive him. She called him a future death eater and broke off.

In the HBP, Harry casts a forbidden curse, that almost causes the death of another student; had Moaning Myrtle was not there to fetch Snape, Draco would have died; Snape, though does not accuse Harry of murder; he does not say Harry had killing tendencies; he accepts Harry's explanation that he was provoked into cursing, that Harry was horrified, because he really did not know what the curse would do and punished him, but does not break him, by making the punishment horrible or anything.

In both cases forbidden word and curse was used. In one, a whole relationship breaks away, in another, there is a punishment (a very light one) for the offence, but there is also understanding that Harry while doing a wrong thing, nevertheless had reason to defend himself, even though it was in an incorrect manner. Snape took the situation at hand before meteing out the punishment, while I feel Lily disregarded the circumstance in which Snape spoke the forbidden word.

I'll respond to this in the Snape and Lily thread.

As regards Snape and the prophecy: He is the one who sets things in motion. As Dumbledore says the prophecy is only important because Voldemort chose to act on it. So nothing would have happened, the prophecy would have remained unfulfilled if Voldemort had never heard it. But Snape took the prophecy to Voldemort and this started the chain of events. As soon as Voldemort chose to act on the prophecy he effectively caused Harry to be the one who would defeat him. Snape didn't just regret his action of taking the prophecy to Voldemort but actively tried to copunteract it. He first asked Voldemort to spare Lily, which I think is a natural reaction on hearing the news, but that wasn't enough for him. He knew his master would do what he pleased regardless of any request Snape might make, so he still feared for Lily's life and as such went to Dumbledore - a brave move IMO - and gave Dumbledore the information that Voldemort was targetting the Potters. He continued to work from that point onwards to ensure that the prophecy was fulfilled and that Harry defeated Voldemort. He knew and accepted that he may never see that day and as it turned out he didn't. The important thing is that having made the mistake of starting this chain of events he devoted his life to seeing it through, risking his life to ensure the Harry's sucess.

Yes, exactly. It seems an odd splitting of hairs to say that Snape was less responsible for the Potters being killed, when his knowing delivery of the prophecy was ensuring the death of somebody...baby or child, not sure it makes any difference. He was essentially willing to let ANYBODY in the entire world die, except oops, Lily Potter. It's hard to see that as virtuous. However, the irony of who Voldemort chose to target was the catalyst that propelled him on to change, which is what is important; he was brave enough to do something about it.

I cannot see any comparison to Peter at all. Peter visited the Potters and continued to pretend to be their friend when he knew they were targetted by Voldemort. To do that to people you don't like is bad enough, but these were supposed to be his friends. I don't buy the "revenge for their poor treatment of him." If he had a problem with their treatment he should have broken off the friendship - as Lily did with Severus when he called her Mudblood. But he accepted their treatment in return for being part of their gang. He deliberately betrayed the Potters. That was his choice. He was working for Voldemort long before they made him secret keeper by his own choice. He could even have refused to be secret keeper if he knew that Voldemort would get the information out of him, but instead he accepted the role as secret keeper and sold them to Voldemort.

I don't see a comparison to Snape, either. I actually see an intended ironic contrast: the brave Slytherin to the cowardly Gryffindor.

Yes, exactly. It seems an odd splitting of hairs to say that Snape was less responsible for the Potters being killed, when his knowing delivery of the prophecy was ensuring the death of somebody...baby or child, not sure it makes any difference. He was essentially willing to let ANYBODY in the entire world die, except oops, Lily Potter. It's hard to see that as virtuous. However, the irony of who Voldemort chose to target was the catalyst that propelled him on to change, which is what is important; he was brave enough to do something about it.

Yep. :cool:

On comparing Severus with Peter:

I don't see a comparison to Snape, either. I actually see an intended ironic contrast: the brave Slytherin to the cowardly Gryffindor.

Word. :tu: What a brilliant comparison. :agree:

Yes, exactly. It seems an odd splitting of hairs to say that Snape was less responsible for the Potters being killed, when his knowing delivery of the prophecy was ensuring the death of somebody...

Is he still guilty of the POtters deaths when he came back to warn the Potters of what he'd done, well before Voldemort attacked them?

He was essentially willing to let ANYBODY in the entire world die, except oops, Lily Potter. It's hard to see that as virtuous.

It would be hard to see that as virtuous if we had a situation where Snape did not come to Dumbledore. That would make him guilty of murder IMO.

When he came well in advance and told them, is he the one that was responsible for their deaths? I don't think so. :shrug: :)

I dunno, it may be just me; (I think it is), but I think Snape was more furious than horrified that Harry used the spell. I checked the Book; it says Snape spoke to Harry in a tone of cold fury.

I think Snape was angry with the way Harry used the spell without knowing what it could do and without knowing the counter, if the spell had any and he used it on a fellow student who could have bled to death.



Snape was right to be angry. Throughout the whole book I always felt that Snape was very unfair to Harry, but in this particular situation I think he was very fair and merciful, his detention was bad enough; it prevented Harry from enjoying his time with Ginny and lessened Gryffindore's chances of winning the cup, but such a behavior would've given Harry worse detentions and probably expulsion if Mcgonagall had shown up instead of Snape. Snape's behaviour in this situation confuses me, Snape who enjoyed every chance to get Harry expelled, I really dont see what was behind that.

Is he still guilty of the POtters deaths when he came back to warn the Potters of what he'd done, well before Voldemort attacked them?

... When he came well in advance and told them, is he the one that was responsible for their deaths? I don't think so. :shrug: :)

If Severus had never gone to Voldemort with the Prophecy in the first place, then James, Lily and Harry would never have been targeted in the first place.

So, yes, he does bear responsibility.

And Peter and Voldemort are even worse, IMO, because they acted on the information.

Snape was right to be angry. Throughout the whole book I always felt that Snape was very unfair to Harry, but in this particular situation I think he was very fair and merciful, his detention was bad enough; it prevented Harry from enjoying his time with Ginny and lessened Gryffindore's chances of winning the cup, but such a behavior would've given Harry worse detentions and probably expulsion if Mcgonagall had shown up instead of Snape. Snape's behaviour in this situation confuses me, Snape who enjoyed every chance to get Harry expelled, I really dont see what was behind that.

Bellatrix, I am never quite sure how seriously we should take Snape's apparent desire to get Harry expelled in the earlier books. He knew Harry would be in danger if expelled to the Muggle world once more, so I honestly think that here his bark was worse than his bite.

Possibly. ;)

Certainly by the time of HBP, Harry would have been in great danger if he'd been expelled. He is safer at Hogwarts. Snape knows that, and so I don't believe he would have tried to get Harry expelled in his sixth year. Far too much is at stake now.

That's how I see it anyway. :)

Lets look at the situations that Snape wanted Harry expelled again.

He threatens this in Chamber of Secrets. I can't recall where else- maybe someone can tell us.

I always thought it was interesting that in COS had Dobby trying to get Harry expelled as well. Yet, Dobby was trying to protect Harry. Dobby even sent bludger after Harry in order to "protect" him that year.

We know now that Snape's life after Lily died was about trying to protect Harry. Is it possible to think that in some way Snape might have thought Harry would be safer outside of school? Did Snape know about the protection charm at Petunia's house? I think it's reasonable he knew about it- all the DE's did by Deathly Hallows.

In any event, I never took his call to have Harry expelled as serious anyway. What Snape said and what Snape did were often at odds. It is notable that After Voldemort returns to full strength Snape doesn't bring it up again.

Did Snape know about the protection charm at Petunia's house? I think it's reasonable he knew about it- all the DE's did by Deathly Hallows.

I would assume that Dumbledore would have told him. :cool:

I know that Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape everything (:yuhup: and :sigh: ) but, well, anyway, I think it's a good assumption, though I say it myself. :D :)

It is notable that After Voldemort returns to full strength Snape doesn't bring it up again.

Quite. :tu:

I would assume that Dumbledore would have told him. :cool:

I know that Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape everything (:yuhup: and :sigh: ) but, well, anyway, I think it's a good assumption, though I say it myself. :D :)



Harry doesn't go to live with Sirius as much as he would love to, so I imagine a reason was given by Dumbledore. In DH, Moody explains about the protections on the Dursley's properity running out when Harry comes of age or no longer thinks of it as home. I imagine if the Order know, then Snape would as well. Not sure when Dumbledore might have told him though, maybe as soon as he knew Petunia had taken Harry in (and therefore protected while there).

If Severus had never gone to Voldemort with the Prophecy in the first place, then James, Lily and Harry would never have been targeted in the first place.

So, yes, he does bear responsibility.

They were already targets for defying Voldemort three times. They were in hiding when Dumbledore informed them of the traitor. Peter, even before the Fidelus could have betrayed them any time Voldemort wanted them found. Voldemort was killing Order members off one by one, according to Moody. So, it's not too hard to believe that he would have eventually got to the Potters, with Peter's help. It was only after the Fidelus that Peter would have found his traitor job difficult. But that was made possible by the switch IMO.

They were already targets for defying Voldemort three times. They were in hiding when Dumbledore informed them of the traitor. Peter, even before the Fidelus could have betrayed them any time Voldemort wanted them found. Voldemort was killing Order members off one by one, according to Moody. So, it's not too hard to believe that he would have eventually got to the Potters, with Peter's help. It was only after the Fidelus that Peter would have found his traitor job difficult. But that was made possible by the switch IMO.

And all this somehow negates the part Snape played, in alerting Voldemort to the existence of the Prophecy in the first place?

I've already made it clear who I regard as the true villains of the saga: Peter and Voldemort. :cool:

Harry doesn't go to live with Sirius as much as he would love to, so I imagine a reason was given by Dumbledore. In DH, Moody explains about the protections on the Dursley's properity running out when Harry comes of age or no longer thinks of it as home. I imagine if the Order know, then Snape would as well. Not sure when Dumbledore might have told him though, maybe as soon as he knew Petunia had taken Harry in (and therefore protected while there).

I'll go with that. :tu:

And all this somehow negates the part Snape played, in alerting Voldemort to the existence of the Prophecy in the first place?

No; I think it does not. But I also think it does not make Snape guilty of their deaths.

They were already targets for defying Voldemort three times. They were in hiding when Dumbledore informed them of the traitor. Peter, even before the Fidelus could have betrayed them any time Voldemort wanted them found. Voldemort was killing Order members off one by one, according to Moody. So, it's not too hard to believe that he would have eventually got to the Potters, with Peter's help. It was only after the Fidelus that Peter would have found his traitor job difficult. But that was made possible by the switch IMO.

See, in my mind, none of these things matter in terms of judging how "bad" Snape's actions were. He gave Voldemort the prophecy knowing full well that someone would die as a result.

The fact that the Potters may have been targets eventually is irrelevant since Snape didn't know that Voldemort was going to go after them as a result of the prophecy. And in the grand scheme of things, it does not lessen one's culpability in murder just because the victim may have died for other reasons in the near future; no one has the right to end somebody else's life. That's why Snape was so affected by killing DD, even though he was dying.

I agree that it was a good thing that he tried to stop the killings once he realized Lily was being targeted. But that doesn't change the fact that he had no issue with killing anybody else in the world and he is to blame that someone was targeted in the first place; too bad for him, it was Lily.

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...(This is the part Snape heard and passed on to Voldemort)
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives....the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.... (colour added is mine)

Dies not died. Dies implies present or future depending on context. Secondly it's a prophecy. You don't prophesize about things that happened in the past. Only things that are going to happen. Now, I suppose you could stretch it and say as the seventh month dies two years or ten years in the future but then would the one with the power would hardly be approaching in the context that he would be an immediate threat to Voldemort.

Didn't know it was a child, as far as I'm concerned, but yes he did deliberately tell him what he heard. Still not as bad as what Peter and Voldemort did in my eyes.

Born? How could it be anything but a child? Unless you really want to stretch the meaning and have Voldy watching a ton of people who are just coming into their powers? How many children would that be. The intent of the prophecy was worked out by both Dumbledore and Voldemort so Snape being a smart guy would have known it for what it was. And it is as bad. He not only indirectly played a crucial role in the Potter's deaths but in the deaths of all those people that Peter ended up killing in his attempt to save himself. Not only did he knowingly put a child at risk he also started the chain of events that killed innocent muggles. His role in providing the prophecy was crucial. So much so that an entire book (HBP) hinges on it. It is "as bad" for without him and his twisted ideals of his youth none of that would have happened. Without each person playing their part (Snape, Voldy, and Wormtail) it would have equally never have happened. So it is as bad in my honest opinion.

The Potters are culpable because they failed to protect their baby properly.

I addressed this earlier. You can't blame people who live their lives the way they are fighting for other people to live theirs. They could have chosen to live in distrust and fear and suspicion. They did not. Could they have made a better choice? Maybe, but they did not make a wrong choice. They chose to deal with the evil people who put them in danger not out of fear but out of love and that is remarkable. And it in no way removes any guilt of the DE and Voldemort. I would really like it if we could get rid of this blaming the victim mentality as it in no way reflects on Snape and is better dealt with in the James and Lily threads.

I can't blame Snape for the actual deaths of the Potters, simply because, Snape came back and warned them.

A slight difference. He warned Dumbledore and did nothing personally to keep them safe. He could have planted himself outside and taken on Voldy himself. He made a mess and asked Dumbledore to clean it up. He didn't do all that was in his power to do it himself however. And his motivations for doing so were personal and not out of remorse for being instrumental in taking a human life. If it had been Frank and Alice or anyone else that Snape didn't have a personal reason for I would buy his turnaround much more.
If he was simply just sick of all the killing..but nope. It's Snape at the hieght of his selfishness.

I don't understand this at all. Could you please explain?

Dumbledore knew then that he would be needing Snape as a double agent and that Harry was center to all of this. If Harry was managed to be saved he would need Snape's feelings for them (Harry and his father) not to interfere with any plans that Dumbledore made from then on out.



I thought that title would go to Voldemort or Bellatrix, or other DEs who betrayed their world for all the wrong reasons.

I don't understand how it applies to Snape.

It's simple. Snape shared the same ideals as Voldemort and the rest of the DE and committed an action that shows that he was willing to put families at risk and had little thought for any collateral damge that his actions may have.

Snape took the responsibility and felt guilty because of what he had done first. Handed over the prophecy knowing it would cause death. That was what I think tormented him, because the death it caused was Lily's. He had not cared about the lives this would cost when he took the prophecy to Voldemort; another thing I believe would have tormented him, that his conscience did not work at that time; had it done so, Lily would have been saved. So, he felt responsible for Lily's death, because of his own thoughtless and conscienceless actions.

Snape's conscience also never allowed him to feel he had done enough to soothe his guilt over his actions. But that does not mean he is really culpable or guilty of killing Lily. I think there is a difference, a subtle one.

Bold mine. It shouldn't have mattered that it was Lily or another muggle off the street. Death is death no matter who it is. He is as guilty as anyone in the chain of DE and evildoers. He had remorse for Lily and only Lily. There was no concience involved in nmy opinion because his concience never bothered him before that.




He expected his boss to do whatever his boss liked at that time IMO.

:lol: Hmmm. A threat to Voldemort. Yep. I could see Voldy just letting them walk. Well, no, really I can't.

Am I understanding you wrong, or are you saying that Peter was justified in doing what he did?

We are delving into the Wormtail thread here. But I will say that Peter had a story too. It makes him no less culpable than either Snape or Voldy or any other DE. He wasn't justified in his actions but he was no MORE culpable than the other villains of the series either.

Slipping away where?

He came thinking Dumbeldore was going to kill him or have him sent to Azkaban to be kissed. His first words to Dumbledore are 'Don't kill me.' He came because he had already started feeling the guilt of his actions IMO.

After Dumbledore claims that he is disgusted I believe that Snape was worried that DD would turn down his request to save Lily just on the basis that Snape was a)a DE and b)that Snape wasn't worried about James or Harry. His purpose was to save Lily. He could reasonably expect DD to save Harry as Harry is to defeat Voldy but there was nothing explicit that says that says DD should feel the need to save all of them.

I diagree. I may be wrong, but I feel there is a justification for Peter's actions in the above quote, with which I totally disagree. Peter was a traitor pure and simple IMO.

He definately was a traitor. That's my point. Peter has a story. Snape has a story. Neither one of their stories reduces the impact and ethics of their actions, imho.

Sorry everything was so jumbled. I get my quotes mixed up.

:)

He gave Voldemort the prophecy knowing full well that someone would die as a result.

I agree.

The fact that the Potters may have been targets eventually is irrelevant since Snape didn't know that Voldemort was going to go after them as a result of the prophecy.

I agree.

And in the grand scheme of things, it does not lessen one's culpability in murder just because the victim may have died for other reasons in the near future; no one has the right to end somebody else's life. That's why Snape was so affected by killing DD, even though he was dying.

I believe Snape to be culpable of not caring about a baby's and by extension a family's death; I have said so many times, in my posts.

I do not however think Snape to be guilty of murder; the victims did not die because they were unaware of Snape's actions; on the contrary, they were very much aware; they died because they had not protected themselves properly.

Snape went to Dumbledore on the hill and told him everything he knew.

1) Dumbledore came to warn the Potters

2) He offers to be SK

3) He tells them about the traitor as one among the 3 Friends and the specific target they have now become for Voldemort

4) The Potters decide to have Sirius as their SK, to protect them against this specific threat

5) They allow Sirius to persuade them to make a switch, because they thought Remus to be the traitor

6) They make a mistake with the switch and die.

Snape's mistake was the one which set Voldemort after the Potters. He made amends by going to Dumbledore and informing them about Voldemort's intention.

I honestly believe Snape's actions once he came to Dumbledore took him out of the picture as far as the Potters deaths were concerned.

He was still culpable for uncaring of a baby's death; he himself I think was overcome with grief, because Lily died. But like Dumbledore said they both trusted the wrong person.

But Snape had trusted the right person; Snape trusted Dumbledore, to save them all. But the Potters had been confident to take care of it themselves. I see the holes in their precautions, which Snape had nothing to do with.

Did Snape's information kill them, or was it their inadequate protection?

I believe the latter because Snape warned them. Forgive me, if I'm not making any sense, but this is how I see it. :)

But that doesn't change the fact that he had no issue with killing anybody else in the world and he is to blame that someone was targeted in the first place; too bad for him, it was Lily.

I think it was more like he had no issue with anyone else dying because of his information. But then, he was a DE at that time, which was why he did not care; which was why he felt appalled later on, anguished when he realised that yes, too bad for him, it was Lily.

And then he grew to a man Dumbledore trusted completely and Harry respected totally. :)

Did Snape's information kill them, or was it their inadequate protection?


Snape's information killed them (in conjunction with Voldemort and Wormtail's actions).

Most importantly, their inadequate protection did not kill them. A murderer and his accomplices killed them.

It's like saying that it is Snape's fault he got picked on in SWM because he wandered near the Marauders and didn't take appropriate steps to protect himself. The victim should not be blamed for someone else's actions.

Snape's information killed them (in conjunction with Voldemort and Wormtail's actions).

Most importantly, their inadequate protection did not kill them. A murderer and his accomplices killed them.

I disagree. :)

It's like saying that it is Snape's fault he got picked on in SWM because he wandered near the Marauders and didn't take appropriate steps to protect himself. The victim should not be blamed for someone else's actions.

Point!

There was no one to warn him about their closeness, though! He walked unaware of them.

Point!

There was no one to warn him about their closeness, though! He walked unaware of them.

Shouldn't he have known that they were out to get him and taken better steps to protect himself? What was he doing out and about? Snape should never have left Slytherin House; doing so makes him culpable in his own victimization. He was asking for it.

I don't agree with what I just wrote...but it's where I feel blaming the victim can lead. The Potters weren't "asking for it" anymore than Snape was after his O.W.L. exam. The Marauders are responsible for their actions just as Snape is responsible for his. I can agree that Snape lessened his culpability somewhat in the Potter's deaths by trying to stop it...but the actions of the Potters hold no bearing on the matter.

A slight difference. He warned Dumbledore and did nothing personally to keep them safe. He could have planted himself outside and taken on Voldy himself. He made a mess and asked Dumbledore to clean it up. He didn't do all that was in his power to do it himself however. And his motivations for doing so were personal and not out of remorse for being instrumental in taking a human life. If it had been Frank and Alice or anyone else that Snape didn't have a personal reason for I would buy his turnaround much more.
If he was simply just sick of all the killing..but nope. It's Snape at the hieght of his selfishness.

Here, I disagree.

1. We don't know if he was wanted to do something "personally" - or rather we know that Dumbledore wanted other things from him than protecting the Potters.

2. He went to Dumbledore because the Headmaster was generally considered as the only one able to face Voldy. Snape certainly didn't see himself as having the power to protect Lily alone - because he'd would never come to Dumbledore, if he had other possibility. And I can't see as "selfish" the fact of risking his life (he believed Dumbledore could kill him) to protect a person he loved. It's the same as saying that Lily's sacrifice was selfish, because she protected her baby, and not a perfect stranger.

3. "He could planted himself outside"... of what? Snape didn't know where were the Potters, protected by the Fidelius. And, as Dumbledore wanted him to be a spy on Voldemort, a mighty Legilimens, Snape was precisely the person who mustn't know anything about it. Snape was at Hogwarts when the Potters were killed, and I don't think Voldy announced him when and where he would kill them. He went to them alone.

4. Maybe his remorse wasn't "perfect". maybe it was "personal", but still, he saw what his actions were and tried to prevent thier consequences.

We don't know if he was wanted to do something "personally" - or rather we know that Dumbledore wanted other things from him than protecting the Potters.

He made the mess. He wanted Dumbledore to fix it so that he wouldn't have to, imho.


2. He went to Dumbledore because the Headmaster was generally considered as the only one able to face Voldy. Snape certainly didn't see himself as having the power to protect Lily alone - because he'd would never come to Dumbledore, if he had other possibility. And I can't see as "selfish" the fact of risking his life (he believed Dumbledore could kill him) to protect a person he loved.

It was not all that could have been done, imho.


And I can't see as "selfish" the fact of risking his life (he believed Dumbledore could kill him) to protect a person he loved. It's the same as saying that Lily's sacrifice was selfish, because she protected her baby, and not a perfect stranger.

She had been protecting perfect strangers by being in the Order. And she never put those people at risk either. So that is not a good comparison.

"He could planted himself outside"... of what? Snape didn't know where were the Potters, protected by the Fidelius.

Not necessarily true. DE could follow people right up to the gates of Grimmauld place but not get in because of the Fidelius. Snape could have easily followed anyone who went to visit the Potters. He could have followed Peter for that matter while he was leading Voldemort.


And, as Dumbledore wanted him to be a spy on Voldemort, a mighty Legilimens, Snape was precisely the person who mustn't know anything about it.

And Snape was an occlumens. A powerful one. So that arguement seems a little hollow to me.



Snape was at Hogwarts when the Potters were killed, and I don't think Voldy announced him when and where he would kill them. He went to them alone.

Very true but how does one get any information about anything? How did he know where to spy on Trelawny for instance? As a double agent with the ear of the Dark Lord and the advantage of surprise he could have waltzed right up to Voldy and AK'd him himself, imo. Instead he stood behind DD as some sort of shield which seems cowardly to me.

Maybe his remorse wasn't "perfect". maybe it was "personal", but still, he saw what his actions were and tried to prevent thier consequences.

He did try to prevent the consequences, that is true. But it is not admirable because it was remorse in how it relates to himself. It does not show any sort of respect for human life. Nor does it prove that he was somehow "misguided" in his youth or mitigate the horribleness of what he did.

Dies not died. Dies implies present or future depending on context. Secondly it's a prophecy. You don't prophesize about things that happened in the past. Only things that are going to happen. Now, I suppose you could stretch it and say as the seventh month dies two years or ten years in the future but then would the one with the power would hardly be approaching in the context that he would be an immediate threat to Voldemort.

It is a valid interpretation from looking at the first two lines of the prophecy the person who is approaching... "approaches" may be an adult who was born in the month of July. I also don't consider the words "as the seventh month dies" as being present or future. The "will be born" in the second half is what specifies it. Anyone born in July would be born as the seventh month dies, not died. It's just specifying the time of the month and not present, past, or future.


Born? How could it be anything but a child? Unless you really want to stretch the meaning and have Voldy watching a ton of people who are just coming into their powers? How many children would that be.

Everyone is born. It may not have even been a child, according to the first two lines of the prophecy. That is just one interpretation, which happens to be the correct one because Voldemort made it so.

The intent of the prophecy was worked out by both Dumbledore and Voldemort so Snape being a smart guy would have known it for what it was.

I actually don't think he considered it much beyond telling Voldemort what he overheard.

And it is as bad.

Yes, it was bad. It was bad of him to be a Death Eater and spying for Voldemort in the first place. It isn't worse than what Peter or Voldemort did, even if it set off a chain of events. Harry showed mercy to Peter and that set off events that allowed for Peter to escape and bring Voldemort back. Is that Harry's fault, or Peter's fault for making the decision to go to Voldemort?

He not only indirectly played a crucial role in the Potter's deaths but in the deaths of all those people that Peter ended up killing in his attempt to save himself. Not only did he knowingly put a child at risk he also started the chain of events that killed innocent muggles. His role in providing the prophecy was crucial. So much so that an entire book (HBP) hinges on it. It is "as bad" for without him and his twisted ideals of his youth none of that would have happened. Without each person playing their part (Snape, Voldy, and Wormtail) it would have equally never have happened. So it is as bad in my honest opinion.


OK, that's your opinion. You're entitled to it, of course. Firstly though, I'll have to disagree on him knowingly placing a child in danger... see above.

I think his action was bad. I never said that it wasn't. I just disagree on how bad it actually was in comparison to the other players. If you think it's just as bad as them, fine, but I cannot blame every single action of others on Snape simply because he told Voldemort what he overheard. The blame of the muggle deaths by Peter should rest on Peter, in my opinion. That was his choice. Snape wasn't there telling him to do that. Voldemort killed Lily and James... that was his evil act, while Snape was trying to prevent it after his initial mistakes in joining Voldy and spying for him. Snape didn't hold the door open for him and urge him to do it.

And I'm actually done with this line of discussion. I think I've said enough on this topic for now.

Shouldn't he have known that they were out to get him and taken better steps to protect himself? What was he doing out and about? Snape should never have left Slytherin House; doing so makes him culpable in his own victimization. He was asking for it.

He was asking for it? No. I don't think so. Just like I don't think the Potters were asking to be killed.

If Snape went and stood in front of the Marauders and smiled at them, waiting for their 'pranks' I think then, he was asking for it, but I don't think he did that and he got it anyway because the Marauders ganged up on him 4 to 1. :scared:

(I'm asking for a warning from the mods; choose another example not the Snape/Marauders one please)

The Potters were the victims, yes; they knew of a threat; they were warned of it; they knew of a traitor and they still refused to tackle the threat properly and placed their baby in danger by their inadequate protection (equal of Snape going and standing in front of the Marauders), then I think they are in a way responsible.

I don't agree with what I just wrote...but it's where I feel blaming the victim can lead. The Potters weren't "asking for it" anymore than Snape was after his O.W.L. exam. The Marauders are responsible for their actions just as Snape is responsible for his. I can agree that Snape lessened his culpability somewhat in the Potter's deaths by trying to stop it...but the actions of the Potters hold no bearing on the matter.

I understand where you are coming from. I also think I'm going in circles because I am not explaining myself properly.

I think the Potters are to blame as well. They did not know it was Snape, for instance. From the Potters point of view,

As far as the Potters were concerned, they were warned both about Voldemort's imminent attack and of a traitor; they made mistakes, after they were warned, for which their child suffered and they died. So, IMO they were very much to blame for placing friendship over protection at that time.

From Snape's point of view, he made a mistake for which he was very much culpable IMO. Which I've never denied.

It was not all that could have been done, imho.

Well it seems in the fictional situation created by the author it was, or there's a major discrepancy there. It's pretty obvious he was prepared to do anything to save Lily's life. He said as much himself, and the sight of him both before and after her death speaks loudly that there was nothing more important to him than Lily staying alive. So as far as he knew, he did do all that he could. In the fictional situation we have, I want to repeat that, because this is not real life and we're limited by what's been provided for us in the text.

She had been protecting perfect strangers by being in the Order.

Or she joined the Order because she wanted a better world for the ones she loved; or because she was directly threatened by the regime in power - she was a Muggleborn.

I personally don't believe there's such thing as completely selfless motivation; and even if there is, I find it rather merciless to expect it from everyone, as if all people's natural state is one of sainthood, and any deviation from perfect selflessness is an ugly shortcoming or a sin.

Not necessarily true. DE could follow people right up to the gates of Grimmauld place but not get in because of the Fidelius. Snape could have easily followed anyone who went to visit the Potters. He could have followed Peter for that matter while he was leading Voldemort.

And yet nobody thought of doing that, not even Sirius or Dumbeldore. Which means that probably that was not an option as far as the narrative (or the author) is concerned. It's like asking why the Trio didn't just ask the Room of Requirement to provide all necessary information on the Horcruxes.

It's like saying that it is Snape's fault he got picked on in SWM because he wandered near the Marauders and didn't take appropriate steps to protect himself. The victim should not be blamed for someone else's actions.
:tu:
And that theory has been said else where in trying to blame Snape for what happened to him, which is just as asinine.

Snape could have easily followed anyone who went to visit the Potters. He could have followed Peter for that matter while he was leading Voldemort.

Snape didn't know Peter was a spy at that time and never found out until after PoA, so he wouldn't know to follow him. If he had known Peter was the spy he would have told Dumbledore.

And Snape was an occlumens. A powerful one. So that arguement seems a little hollow to me.

Indeed he was , but Voldemort was a powerful Legilimens and just one slip from Snape is all it would take. Even Dumbledore didn't tell Snape everything for that simple reason.

DH, The Prince's Tale
'I prefer not to put all my eggs into one basket, particularly not a basket that spends so much of it's time dangling on the arm of Lord Voldemort.'

As a double agent with the ear of the Dark Lord and the advantage of surprise he could have waltzed right up to Voldy and AK'd him himself, imo. Instead he stood behind DD as some sort of shield which seems cowardly to me.

Snape knew like all the DE's that Voldemort had experimented in attaining immortality, Voldemort said that they all knew in GoF. So, Snape would have known that Ak'ing Voldemort wasn't going to work. Going to Dumbledore was the best option to he had of trying to save Lily.

A slight difference. He warned Dumbledore and did nothing personally to keep them safe. He could have planted himself outside and taken on Voldy himself. He made a mess and asked Dumbledore to clean it up. He didn't do all that was in his power to do it himself however. And his motivations for doing so were personal and not out of remorse for being instrumental in taking a human life. If it had been Frank and Alice or anyone else that Snape didn't have a personal reason for I would buy his turnaround much more. If he was simply just sick of all the killing..but nope. It's Snape at the hieght of his selfishness.

I agree. In DH, he tells Dumbledore in his incoherent fashion that he'd told Voldemort everything - accepting his culpability for his action that got the Potters targeted, imo (DH). The only way to undo that, imo, is to get the Potters "untargeted", but he couldn't, because Voldemort of course was a dark lord and not going to change his mind, imo.

Snape tried to get Voldemort to cure his responsibility for the murder of Lily, because he didn't want that, imo. Then he attempted to have Dumbledore do the same thing, imo. I feel Snape had alternatives; he could use his skills to spy on Voldemort, kill Voldemort, send the Potters recommended protection of his own through Dumbledore; ferret out Voldemort's spy connection to the Order or whatever. But he left it up to the big men to take care of things, imo. The problem of course was that neither Voldemort or Dumbledore were nearly as concerned about Lily as they were about Harry - one pointedly wanted to kill him and the other save him - so their efforts would be geared mainly in that regard, imo. Dumbledore could have done more too - but he didn't. So what you get is Snape's taking the prophecy getting the Potters targeted by Voldemort and Peter giving him the codeword and the Potters dying, in my opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but in mine, Snape (and his pals) are murderers of the Potters. And that is something that I feel Snape should have had remorse for - his act of delivering the prophecy that got two people killed. Dumbledore claimed Snape saw it as the biggest regret of his life (HBP) - and perhaps that is true, but from reading the text, it would seem that was only in terms of Lily, imo. However, in my view, his emotions resulting in that regret for her were predicated on his obsession and desired possession of her as written, so I pretty much view his regret, like his emotions as shallow (akin to Bella's for Voldemort), imo. I've said many times I feel JKR failed Snape's character in this regard - unless that is what she wished for him despite her comments to the contrary (i.e., she wanted redemption and forgiveness). I feel that way because overall, Snape's acts before, during and after the killing of the Potters, any deaths he was responsible for during the first war and his behavior that moved beyond the pale in my judgment in the aftermath, do not reconcile the character with true remorse or repentance for those things he did that I would characterize as good v. evil, imo (I'm not referring to bad versus good acts which everyone in canon did - but those associated with the light v. dark of the series and the war against Voldemort and those against him).

I feel like JKR wrote Snape in such a way that it is difficult for me to glean redemption, respecting the idea that others see it distinctly of course. But Snape himself, although speaking quite often in canon, never expressed any regret or remorse for his deeds, imo. His subsequent behavior and actions seemed to express just the opposite to me. For example, JKR had Dumbledore say that Snape had watched many people die and Snape responded that lately it was only those who he could not save - then JKR wrote Snape watching Charity Burbage die and to me, that set forth his priorities and judgment when it came to saving others. I find Snape falls way short of a goodsider in his judgment, imo, because I could see him watch Bella or Greyback or a spy like Kingsley die in the name of spying - but not watching a completely innocent person like Charity, who was mercilessly tortured and killed for teaching muggle studies, imo. In another example, I can't reconcile his allowing children to be tortured and kidnapped at Hogwarts when he was headmaster, merely in order to keep up his spying act, because at the time, it was wholly unnecessary for him to play "spy", imo. There are many, many more examples, but I think that is enough to make the point that I think Snape's character arc fails in light of what I feel JKR was trying to do - but that is of course, my personal opinion and again, I respect that others see it distinctly.

All that is to say, that the long and short of it is that the Potter situation is just the tip of the iceburg in the problematic Snape character arc to me. Thus, under analysis it is not really important how he is construed, in my opinion, because there are so many other factors that were left unaddressed with respect to his character and "good v. evil", he simply cannot be redeemed in the end, imo, no matter how that one issue is resolved, imo.

Another thing I think led to this problem in terms of analysis was that JKR didn't show Snape in action for the goodside in a relevant way, imo. JKR had failure occur in the wake of all of Snape's acts - even those that were not to be seen as ambiguous, imo. For example, why make Harry nearly drown upon Snape delivering him the sword? I didn't know if it was Snape delivering it unless I guessed until the memories - so there was no need to make Snape trying to help go wrong there except to write in other aspects of the storyline, imo. But in doing so, the outcome reflects on Snape's manner of helping and once more his presumably good efforts take a negative turn for the worse, imo. Same with 7 Potters; he is actually trying to help when he cuts off George's ear - which is played up to a great extent in canon with the boy unconscious and feared dead; with Moody dying and Hedwig also and Harry nearly getting killed once more except his wand saved him (DH 7 Potters). I feel like JKR could have written some scene where Snape was actually completely successful in an attempt at something - or show him bravely rescuing charity in a secretive manner rather than watching her die and doing nothing - perhaps even killing her as some apparently believe (Pottercast).

So again, my problem is what I see as a character arc failure - but in terms of what I got from the canon, I see Snape overall as an unredeemed man who was basically out for revenge against his old master and school mates, including Harry after transference of his ill will toward him, imo, throughout his life, imo. On the flipside, he had enduring and in my judgment, shallow emotions for Lily that fueled his jealous and hatred with respect to the otherside of the coin - because Voldemort killed Lily; she loved James, Harry, Sirius, and Lupin, but had rejected Snape, imo, and Snape disliked all of those people, imo, and felt various levels of jealousy toward them all, imo, which to me completely ruled him, above and beyond anything engendered by love that might be construed as positive, imo. The ambiguous scenes can be intepreted as one likes, but overall, in terms of deep analysis of this character, there is simply not enough written in an unambiguous manner for me to reach the conclusions that JKR stated she wanted for the character (as I noted above). Because it is often the rebuttal, note that I don't feel Harry's epilogue decisions and words are enough to guide or influence my opinion because I feel they are completely disconnected from the storyline with no tie in to Snape and no explanation of any tie-in to Snape's character, imo. This analysis is all my personal opinion.

It is a valid interpretation from looking at the first two lines of the prophecy the person who is approaching

Is it valid? I think it is a case of splitting hairs. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort only heard the first half of the prophecy yet he knew which children would be targeted. And sure enough Voldemort himself did indeed target those to children. If it was that ambiguous Dumbledore would have stated something to that effect. All that DD said was that Snape had no way of knowing which child Voldemort would choose. Not that Snape had no way of knowing a child was involved.

"approaches" may be an adult who was born in the month of July. Then it would have said "died" instead of dies.


I also don't consider the words "as the seventh month dies" as being present or future. The "will be born" in the second half is what specifies it. Anyone born in July would be born as the seventh month dies, not died. It's just specifying the time of the month and not present, past, or future.

The whole prophecy is in terms of the present/future tense and yet it throws a person of unspecified age in? It makes no sense in connection with those who have thrice defied him. It has to be specific otherwise there is no way Voldemort could have made any sort of prediction at all.

I actually don't think he considered it much beyond telling Voldemort what he overheard.

For the sake of arguement let's assume you're right. It's somehow less horrible that Snape basically laid a death sentence on someone or a family?

Everyone is born. It may not have even been a child, according to the first two lines of the prophecy. That is just one interpretation, which happens to be the correct one because Voldemort made it so.

See above. As for Voldemort making it so that is not accurate. Dumbledore specifically states Neville and Harry being equally capable of Voldemort choosing him and Voldemort thereby marking either of them as his equal. Only Harry and Neville. No one else.

I think his action was bad. I never said that it wasn't. I just disagree on how bad it actually was in comparison to the other players. If you think it's just as bad as them, fine, but I cannot blame every single action of others on Snape simply because he told Voldemort what he overheard. The blame of the muggle deaths by Peter should rest on Peter, in my opinion. That was his choice. Snape wasn't there telling him to do that. Voldemort killed Lily and James... that was his evil act, while Snape was trying to prevent it after his initial mistakes in joining Voldy and spying for him. Snape didn't hold the door open for him and urge him to do it.

He didn't need to tell them. He gave them the means to do so. What makes Voldy evil is not the fact that he kills people. Nor Peter. What makes them evil is the part of their psychology that makes killing people okay. Snape shared in this psychology which is what makes his action just as bad.

It's like saying that it is Snape's fault he got picked on in SWM because he wandered near the Marauders and didn't take appropriate steps to protect himself. The victim should not be blamed for someone else's actions.

Speaking for myself, I agree with you. I can't blame James and Lily for their own deaths, but their decisions are also part of the story, and part of how things played out that night. So their decisions also factor in. I don't think one can totally ignore that. It's part of what makes the story so tragic, rich, and multi-layered-- the very fact that there were so many players involved: Snape, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Trelawney, Peter, James, Lily, Sirius, and Remus. That's what makes the story a good one which can be discussed in great length and allow for an emotional reaction by the reader, whatever that reaction may be. At least for me.

I feel like JKR wrote Snape in such a way that it is difficult for me to glean redemption, respecting the idea that others see it distinctly of course. But Snape himself, although speaking quite often in canon, never expressed any regret or remorse for his deeds, imo. His subsequent behavior and actions seemed to express just the opposite to me. JKR had Dumbledore say that Snape had watched many people die and Snape responded that lately it was only those who he could not save - then JKR wrote Snape watching Charity Burbage die and to me, that set forth his priorities and judgment when it came to saving others.

To me JKR is not writing empty words. If Snape could not find a way in which to save Charity, then I take it as a given that he could not save her without blowing his cover, with catastrophic consequences not only for himself but for Harry.

I find Snape falls way short of a goodsider in his judgment, imo, because I could see him watch Bella or Greyback or a spy like Kingsley die in the name of spying - but not a completely innocent person like Charity, who was killed for teaching muggle studies.

Why would watching Kingsley die be more acceptable or tolerable than watching Charity die? Snape presumably knew Kingsley quite well from his work in the Order.

(I have to confess that watching Bella and Greyback die would be less problematic to me because they are both sadistic murderers. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. :whistle: Having said that, I didn't cheer when even Bella was punished savagely by Voldemort. It was actually quite difficult to read.)

I can't reconcile his allowing children to be tortured and kidnapped at Hogwarts either, merely in order to keep up his spying act, because at the time, it was wholly unnecessary, imo. So again, I think Snape's character arc fails in light of what I feel JKR was trying to do - but that is of course, my personal opinion and again, I respect that others see it distinctly.

Again, I don't see JKR as writing empty words, or Harry's final verdict on Snape as empty. Obviously keeping the children safe at Hogwarts was a lot less easy than Dumbledore supposed. :shrug: :sigh:

Thus, under analysis it is not really important how he is construed, in my opinion, because there are so many other factors that were left unaddressed with respect to his character and "good v. evil", he simply cannot be redeemed in the end, imo, no matter how that one issue is resolved, imo.

Well, no, in the big scheme of life it's not important how Snape is construed, any more than it is important how any other character in the Potterverse is construed. :lol:

He may not be redeemed for you, but clearly for others he is. :)

Lets look at the situations that Snape wanted Harry expelled again.

He threatens this in Chamber of Secrets. I can't recall where else- maybe someone can tell us.

I always thought it was interesting that in COS had Dobby trying to get Harry expelled as well. Yet, Dobby was trying to protect Harry. Dobby even sent bludger after Harry in order to "protect" him that year.

We know now that Snape's life after Lily died was about trying to protect Harry. Is it possible to think that in some way Snape might have thought Harry would be safer outside of school? Did Snape know about the protection charm at Petunia's house? I think it's reasonable he knew about it- all the DE's did by Deathly Hallows.

Knowing that Snape was still technically friends with the Malfoys, it's not a stretch to believe that he might have known there was some sort of scheme going on, just as Dobby knew. Snape and Dobby would have had the same source of information - the Malfoys. Even if Lucius didn't tell Snape anything, Draco was a motor-mouth that year going on and on about it, and persecution of the Mudbloods. Over the summer, Snape might have heard rumors just as Dobby did. The fact that Snape was so worried when Harry didn't arrive on the train means that he thought something was going on, and why he might have wanted them expelled.

That makes it very ironic in the book when Harry thinks that Snape looked "as if Christmas had been cancelled" when he wasn't sent back home. The "Christmas" would have been Harry being safe back home with Petunia and away from the plot about the Heir of Slytherin - a victory against Lucius. That would have been Snape's Christmas. :lol: And obviously, Dobby would have been thrilled, too. Just my opinion.

In any event, I never took his call to have Harry expelled as serious anyway. What Snape said and what Snape did were often at odds. It is notable that After Voldemort returns to full strength Snape doesn't bring it up again.
Yes, the alternate reading of it is that Snape's threat is no more serious than Molly's threat in the Howler to have Ron sent home. It was more of a threat to make them stay out of trouble.

She had been protecting perfect strangers by being in the Order. And she never put those people at risk either. So that is not a good comparison.

I'm comparing two actions, and not the whole life of these two characters. And, honestly, from the books we don't know anything about Lily's activity in the Order, so it's hard to discuss that.


Not necessarily true. DE could follow people right up to the gates of Grimmauld place but not get in because of the Fidelius. Snape could have easily followed anyone who went to visit the Potters. He could have followed Peter for that matter while he was leading Voldemort.

And how could he know anyone would visit the Potters? Were there any visits? Seems that even Sirius was kept apart from the house. The only person that knew the way was Peter - and Snape didn't know he was the SK.

And Snape was an occlumens. A powerful one. So that arguement seems a little hollow to me.

We don't know he was already an Occlumens at this time.


Sincerely, I think we can't judge many things because we don't have enough information. My choice is to believe the book - Snape had this options, and he did what he could. He wasn't a superhuman with superpowers - he was just a skilled young wizard. Maybe what he did wasn't 'enough', but only understood as "it didn't stop things to happen". Was he responsible for the Potter's death? Yes, he had his part of the responsibility, and that is why he worked for Dumbledore for the rest of his life. But there was also a traitor, and the murderer himself, who are responsible for it, and IMHO, much more.

Snape watching Charity Burbage die and to me, that set forth his priorities and judgment when it came to saving others.
How on earth was he to prevent her death? If he had spoken up and tried to convince Voldemort to spare her, Voldemort would become suspicious.

Snape watching Charity Burbage die and to me, that set forth his priorities and judgment when it came to saving others.

How on earth was he to prevent her death? If he had spoken up and tried to convince Voldemort to spare her, Voldemort would become suspicious.

I think Snape would have tortured her even more and then watched Snape's reaction. As it was, at least she died quickly and before Nagini had her dinner.

And for those who think Snape should have saved her, JKR gave you some poetic justice in the fact that Snape had his own "Death by Snake." I personally don't believe he deserved to die that way anymore than Charity did, but Hermione and Harry watched him die without doing anything either. :relax: And even before that, Hermione watched Harry being attacked by Nagini and barely managed to save him by disapparating. But Snape couldn't do that at Malfoy Manor - Dobby tried it and he died.

JKR tried to please everyone with Snape's death. For those who thought he deserved a bloody, violent death - you got it. For those who thought he didn't deserve it, we got a very meaningful moving death, the line "Look at Me," and the complete Snape backstory in Prince's Tale.

Is it valid? I think it is a case of splitting hairs.

OK, so saying that there can be another way to interpret the first two lines of the prophecy is invalid. Thanks.

Dumbledore knew that Voldemort only heard the first half of the prophecy yet he knew which children would be targeted. And sure enough Voldemort himself did indeed target those to children. If it was that ambiguous Dumbledore would have stated something to that effect. All that DD said was that Snape had no way of knowing which child Voldemort would choose. Not that Snape had no way of knowing a child was involved.

<sigh> I don't think Snape thought about it at all until Voldemort started to narrow it down. I'm just saying that it is possible that he did not right off the bad know or consider that the prophecy referred to a child because of the way it was phrased.

Then it would have said "died" instead of dies.

That isn't the way I read it. I think it's just a general way of pinpointing the month by stating 'dies' rather than saying "as the seventh month died" which seventh month? This July? July 10 years ago? A year from now? It doesn't make much difference. To me, I think it's telling that the first part of the prophecy doesn't have the "will be born" which does firmly indicate the near future, combined with the word "approaches". I'm sorry if this is nitpicking or splitting hairs for you, but it's my opinion.


The whole prophecy is in terms of the present/future tense and yet it throws a person of unspecified age in? It makes no sense in connection with those who have thrice defied him. It has to be specific otherwise there is no way Voldemort could have made any sort of prediction at all.

I'm not saying that you can't interpret it the way that Voldemort does. I'm just saying that it's possible to interpret it more than one way. Someone could have defied him thrice years ago... He was causing trouble for quite some time.

For the sake of arguement let's assume you're right. It's somehow less horrible that Snape basically laid a death sentence on someone or a family?

Is that what he did? Maybe that's your take on it. That's not how I view it. Maybe you can say he might as well have, but that isn't the same thing to me. Snape didn't go up to Voldemort, tell him that he sentences these people to death and he should get right on that. Snape wasn't calling the shots. He was just a minion- A minion who regretted and tried to undo the mistake he made.

See above. As for Voldemort making it so that is not accurate. Dumbledore specifically states Neville and Harry being equally capable of Voldemort choosing him and Voldemort thereby marking either of them as his equal. Only Harry and Neville. No one else.

Because the identity of the chosen one hinges on Voldemort's choice in marking his equal. That's why I said, "Voldemort made it so."

He didn't need to tell them. He gave them the means to do so.

He gave them information that he overheard. He didn't hand them weapons and show them how to use them. He also tried to correct his mistake, which I take into account as well.

What makes Voldy evil is not the fact that he kills people. Nor Peter. What makes them evil is the part of their psychology that makes killing people okay. Snape shared in this psychology which is what makes his action just as bad.

Yet, that doesn't seem to go well with the fact that he was able to turn around and go against them when he understood that someone he cared for was in danger. The other two have no one that they care for, nor are they capable of doing so... at least that's the case for Voldy. Snape turned his back on the DE's because he wanted to help someone. He didn't do it for himself... to gain anything for himself. He did it to help someone else, as far as I'm concerned. And that starts a change in him as well. His road to redemption. He was damaged as a young man, and still damaged as an adult, but he repaired some of the broken bits of himself in order to work for the good side ect.

And I'm more than happy to just agree to disagree because going back and forth like this isn't really getting us anywhere.

I think Snape would have tortured her even more and then watched Snape's reaction. As it was, at least she died quickly and before Nagini had her dinner.

And for those who think Snape should have saved her, JKR gave you some poetic justice in the fact that Snape had his own "Death by Snake." I personally don't believe he deserved to die that way anymore than Charity did, but Hermione and Harry watched him die without doing anything either. :relax: And even before that, Hermione watched Harry being attacked by Nagini and barely managed to save him by disapparating. But Snape couldn't do that at Malfoy Manor - Dobby tried it and he died.


JLTucker, I will respond to you in response to SIP. :) I think my point was overlooked here. I think the way it was written was supposed to convey the idea that there was nothing that Snape could legitimately do in that circumstance to save Charity. What I was saying was that JKR failed the character by placing him in that situation, imo. I didn't want Snape to get bitten to death by Nagini because of what happened to Charity - what purpose would that serve? What I wanted to see was JKR place the character in a situation where he was risking his life - but sanely - rescuing Charity from the Dungeons - releasing her - then facing Voldemort and using Occlumens to keep himself from being caught. In a situation like that, it would show not only how risky his position was and the bravery necessary - but it would also show his judgment in relation to "watching those die I can't save" being more than mere words, but a moral sense of right because he simply could not bear to watch a person like Charity be killed by the Dark Lord. So I was pointing out a failure in the writing in association with Snape's stance on the issue of good v. bad - not trying to say that Snape should have behaved distinctly under the circumstances.

The problem was - JKR wanted her moment of reveal, but that desire forestalled her from being able to do things like what I have written above (because the Charity incident happened in the 1st chapter - rather than in the memories). But I think it failed the character - if what she wanted was redemption and forgiveness as she stated - to wait until almost the last chapter of the book to make her big reveal (imo). It also forestalled a show of the risks Snape may have taken, any bravery he may have shown, and his moral growth in terms of good and evil, imo. The upshot is that I am unwilling to write all that in for her in my head - I take the character as shown on page - and to me, he does not merit forgiveness or redemption based on the canon, because I feel JKR failed to have him express regret/remorse in any type of tangible way. Again -that is my interpretation, I know others view it distinctly.

Btw, Harry and gang thought Snape was evil at the time they watched him die. They didn't try to save Bella from Molly either - the loyal and confirmed DEs were not being saved by goodsiders at the final battle, imo. That is why they watched Snape die. If that had been Ron instead of Snape, they would have acted, imo.

snip
Thanks for the explanation. I understand you now.

I understand where you are coming from. I also think I'm going in circles because I am not explaining myself properly.

I think the Potters are to blame as well. They did not know it was Snape, for instance. From the Potters point of view,

As far as the Potters were concerned, they were warned both about Voldemort's imminent attack and of a traitor; they made mistakes, after they were warned, for which their child suffered and they died. So, IMO they were very much to blame for placing friendship over protection at that time.

From Snape's point of view, he made a mistake for which he was very much culpable IMO. Which I've never denied.

I won't use that example any more. And I think I do understand your concerns about the Potters and their choices. My only point is that their choices do not lessen Snape's (or Voldemort or Peter's) guilt. Those were the three with deliberate malice in their actions. The Potters may have accidentally given Voldemort an opportunity, but the people behind the actual decision to do any killing are: Snape, for giving Voldemort a prophecy knowing that it would make him feel threatened; Peter for betraying the Potters; and Voldemort for being a horrible sociopathic killer. Are Voldemort and Peter guilty of worse crimes than Snape? Sure. Do the Potters failed attempt to save themselves in anyway absolve Snape, Peter or Voldemort of their culpability? Not at all, imo. Although honestly, maybe you aren't saying this and I'm just interpreting it that way? I've gotten confused. :)

I do think what's hard, for me to grasp, is the use of the word "blame" in relation to the Potters. They didn't ask to be targeted; they were in a defensive position once they got Dumbledore's warning. If Voldemort had killed Draco for not completing his task and killing DD, would Draco be to blame for his own death?

I've said many times I feel JKR failed Snape's character in this regard - unless that is what she wished for him despite her comments to the contrary (i.e., she wanted redemption and forgiveness).

....

There are many, many more examples, but I think that is enough to make the point that I think Snape's character arc fails in light of what I feel JKR was trying to do - but that is of course, my personal opinion and again, I respect that others see it distinctly.

....

Thus, under analysis it is not really important how he is construed, in my opinion, because there are so many other factors that were left unaddressed with respect to his character and "good v. evil", he simply cannot be redeemed in the end, imo, no matter how that one issue is resolved, imo.

...

I feel like JKR could have written some scene where Snape was actually completely successful in an attempt at something.

...

there is simply not enough written in an unambiguous manner for me to reach the conclusions that JKR stated she wanted for the character (as I noted above).

I started a detailed answer, but sincerely, it's very hard to discuss book issues with someone who knows BETTER than the author herself what SHOULD be done and written in it.

In my very humble and absolutely private opinion, JKR wrote exactly what she wanted to. I may not be entirely happy with it, but it's her story and she can do what she wants with it. So I believe her words. If she describes me Snape crying after Lily's death, I can't say he shows no remorse. Nothing said and done after - or before - is in contradiction with this statement. Of course, Voldy says he merely "desired" her, but Voldy isn't really known for his fine analysis of psychological states, especialy when it comes to love.

If Snape is ambiguou, it's because JKR wanted him to be so.

But of course, you have right to read Harry Poter books as a literary failure, a book badly written by an author who wanted to say A and said B.

UselessCharmMaster: Awesome post! :tu: :agree:

Btw, Harry and gang thought Snape was evil at the time they watched him die. They didn't try to save Bella from Molly either - the loyal and confirmed DEs were not being saved by goodsiders at the final battle, imo. That is why they watched Snape die. If that had been Ron instead of Snape, they would have acted, imo.

Well, I wouldn't say that is a glowing appraisal of Harry and the Gang. They only help their friends? :huh:

I don't believe that's true anyway, since Harry helps the goblin in DH, who isn't the nicest person in the world, and Harry and Ron both save Goyle and Draco, who aren't their friends.

I was merely pointing out that when Snape watches Charity die, there is nothing he can do to save her. When Harry and Hermione watch Snape die, there is probably nothing they can do to save him. But we can't fault Snape for not rushing in like an action hero when Harry and Hermione are just as careful about not showing themselves to Voldemort in the Shack.

Knowing that Snape was still technically friends with the Malfoys, it's not a stretch to believe that he might have known there was some sort of scheme going on, just as Dobby knew. Snape and Dobby would have had the same source of information - the Malfoys. Even if Lucius didn't tell Snape anything, Draco was a motor-mouth that year going on and on about it, and persecution of the Mudbloods. Over the summer, Snape might have heard rumors just as Dobby did. The fact that Snape was so worried when Harry didn't arrive on the train means that he thought something was going on, and why he might have wanted them expelled.

That makes it very ironic in the book when Harry thinks that Snape looked "as if Christmas had been cancelled" when he wasn't sent back home. The "Christmas" would have been Harry being safe back home with Petunia and away from the plot about the Heir of Slytherin - a victory against Lucius. That would have been Snape's Christmas. :lol: And obviously, Dobby would have been thrilled, too. Just my opinion.


Great point. :tu:

Yes, the alternate reading of it is that Snape's threat is no more serious than Molly's threat in the Howler to have Ron sent home. It was more of a threat to make them stay out of trouble.

This is another interesting character parallel. Molly and her howler to Ron IMO, mimics some of the sentiment Snape had towards Harry, but obviously Molly cared for Ron and it was that intense concern that made her so angry. While Dobby's efforts, misguided and clumsy, and even painful to Harry were also made with "good intentions" in order to keep him safe.

OK, so saying that there can be another way to interpret the first two lines of the prophecy is invalid. Thanks.

There are other ways to interpret the prophecy. Yes. In ways that makes sense with the rest of the prophecy and the actions and reaction of both Voldemort and Dumbledore, imo, no. I wasn't trying to be snarky.




<sigh> I don't think Snape thought about it at all until Voldemort started to narrow it down. I'm just saying that it is possible that he did not right off the bad know or consider that the prophecy referred to a child because of the way it was phrased.

Usually the simplest answer is the one right in front of (the general) you. As soon as people see the word "born" they will immediately think "child" or "baby". You would have to literally look for alternative ways to interpret that. Which is what thi arguement for a different interpretation implies, imo.


That isn't the way I read it. I think it's just a general way of pinpointing the month by stating 'dies' rather than saying "as the seventh month died" which seventh month? This July? July 10 years ago? A year from now? It doesn't make much difference. To me, I think it's telling that the first part of the prophecy doesn't have the "will be born" which does firmly indicate the near future, combined with the word "approaches". I'm sorry if this is nitpicking or splitting hairs for you, but it's my opinion.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion. A prophecy is about the future. Anything in the past is specifically stated "have thrice defied". I see no other way to reconcile "approaches" and "dies" in anything other than the present/future. And apparently neither did DD or Voldy.



Snape didn't go up to Voldemort, tell him that he sentences these people to death and he should get right on that.

You don't have to give the viper the go ahead to defend itself when it's under attack either. But you know the pit viper will kill in defense, it's in it's very nature. The same for Voldemort. Snape knew his master was threatened and he gave Voldemort information to cancel the threat.

Because the identity of the chosen one hinges on Voldemort's choice in marking his equal. That's why I said, "Voldemort made it so."

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. There were only two people in the wizard world who could have been the chosen one. Harry and Neville. The fact that Voldemort saw Harry as more the threat does not mean that Neville was never a potential candidate.

Yet, that doesn't seem to go well with the fact that he was able to turn around and go against them when he understood that someone he cared for was in danger. The other two have no one that they care for, nor are they capable of doing so... at least that's the case for Voldy.

I see this arguement again and again. He turned around because he loved Lily. Not because Lily deserved to live. But because he loved her. There is no inherrent value placed on her life. He despised her life. Her life with James. Her life with Harry. Her life with Marauders as her friends. Her life, yes, as a mudblood. All the value is placed on his need for her.

Peter we should deal with in his thread. And Voldy is what he is.


And that starts a change in him as well. His road to redemption. He was damaged as a young man, and still damaged as an adult, but he repaired some of the broken bits of himself in order to work for the good side ect.

I do not feel he changed in the least. I feel that he was cornered and had no reasonable way of backing out.


And I'm more than happy to just agree to disagree because going back and forth like this isn't really getting us anywhere.

:love:

JLTucker, I will respond to you in response to SIP. I think my point was overlooked here. I think the way it was written was supposed to convey the idea that there was nothing that Snape could legitimately do in that circumstance to save Charity. What I was saying was that JKR failed the character by placing him in that situation, imo. I didn't want Snape to get bitten to death by Nagini because of what happened to Charity - what purpose would that serve? What I wanted to see was JKR place the character in a situation where he was risking his life - but sanely - rescuing Charity from the Dungeons - releasing her - then facing Voldemort and using Occlumens to keep himself from being caught. In a situation like that, it would show not only how risky his position was and the bravery necessary - but it would also show his judgment in relation to "watching those die I can't save" being more than mere words, but a moral sense of right because he simply could not bear to watch a person like Charity be killed by the Dark Lord. So I was pointing out a failure in the writing in association with Snape's stance on the issue of good v. bad - not trying to say that Snape should have behaved distinctly under the circumstances.

I have never liked the whole pretense of a spy thing or a "greater good" as a satisfactory reason for not doing what is morally right and correct. Snape had to let people die "for Harry" and "because he followed Dumbledore". No! Harry was the one prophesied to bring down the Dark Lord. It didn't have to be Dumbledore's way! Harry had the power. Now either Snape saves the people who need saving or he doesn't. If he was such a good agent then he manges to come out unscathed. If he winds up dying it won't be because he was "following orders" it will be because he took an action that he felt was morally right.


Btw, Harry and gang thought Snape was evil at the time they watched him die. They didn't try to save Bella from Molly either - the loyal and confirmed DEs were not being saved by goodsiders at the final battle, imo. That is why they watched Snape die. If that had been Ron instead of Snape, they would have acted, imo.

And yet they did save Draco when they could have let him die. But at the same time Draco was no longer a threat. Snape, to their knowledge, was. And had he been honest with Harry alot sooner things could have been changed.

All the value is placed on his need for her.

Harry never saw it that way. Also, why did Snape continue to work for Dumbledore after she was dead if everything was about "his need for her".

Harry never saw it that way.

Harry is the best character ever! :love: But just because Harry forgave doesn't mean that what Snape did wasn't wrong.

Also, why did Snape continue to work for Dumbledore after she was dead if everything was about "his need for her".

Because once she died he had no one else. He was estranged from the DE and certainly the Order and most of the wizarding world. By working "in her name" it keeps what little of her he had left. And he could mold her memory to what he wanted it to be--not what it actually was. This is no more evident than when he rips up Sirius's picture. He ripped her life apart and kept her portion for him. That portion wasn't an accurate representation of how Lily was or what her life was like or why she was so precious and individual. All of that was left behind with the portion of the picture he didn't take.

I started a detailed answer, but sincerely, it's very hard to discuss book issues with someone who knows BETTER than the author herself what SHOULD be done and written in it.

Well your assumption about me is mistaken; I didn't say JKR should have written anything any differently - I said that if what she stated she wanted for Snape (forgiveness and redemption) was going to work for me, then she failed in her writing of the character arc, in my opinion, because I don't feel she conveyed the idea she stated she wished to get across. I also recognized that it might have worked for others. Hopefully that clears up what I meant. :)

In my very humble and absolutely private opinion, JKR wrote exactly what she wanted to. I may not be entirely happy with it, but it's her story and she can do what she wants with it. So I believe her words. If she describes me Snape crying after Lily's death, I can't say he shows no remorse.

I agree, except that you assume that crying = remorse - I may not. One can't force a reader to interpret everything the same way, imo. However, to me, Snape did show remorse for what he'd done in terms of Lily, but only Lily, imo - and to me that means that his remorse was not true because it was on selfish terms, imo. That is not sufficient for redemption for an ex-death eater who I hold responsible for more than Lily's death, imo. Right in canon we have another individual dying along side Lily. So JKR wrote what she wanted, then stated what she wished to convey and it didn't convey that to me.

But of course, you have right to read Harry Poter books as a literary failure, a book badly written by an author who wanted to say A and said B.

Agreed. :)

Well, I wouldn't say that is a glowing appraisal of Harry and the Gang. They only help their friends? :huh: I don't believe that's true anyway, since Harry helps the goblin in DH, who isn't the nicest person in the world, and Harry and Ron both save Goyle and Draco, who aren't their friends.

I didn't say just their friends. :lol:. I feel that they were willing to help all non-confirmed Death Eaters - which includes the young and yet unmarked (Goyle), or those who showed rejection even if marked (Draco). But it would have hardly been productive for them to run around saving the Death Eaters who were fighting them, imo. Snape at that time was believed to be as loyal as Bella, if not moreso, so why would they try to save him? If that had been Ron or Dean or Zach, do you think they would have just stood there watching Voldy kill him?

I find this situation completely distinct from that which Snape was in because he was watching an innocent get killed and his reason for not doing anything would be merely to protect his position as a spy, not based on whether she was engaged in evil doing or not, imo.

I was merely pointing out that when Snape watches Charity die, there is nothing he can do to save her. When Harry and Hermione watch Snape die, there is probably nothing they can do to save him. But we can't fault Snape for not rushing in like an action hero when Harry and Hermione are just as careful about not showing themselves to Voldemort in the Shack.

I understand, but Harry and friends would not have saved Snape because he was a loyal Death Eater, imo. Charity, Snape knew, was innocent, so I think JKR was trying to convey that he'd of likely tried to save her if he could. However, that doesn't help with Snape's moral stance, imo, because he watched her die, and didn't try to save her, so that doesn't show any improvement in moral stance, at best it only shows Snape thought there was nothing he could do, imo.

There are other ways to interpret the prophecy. Yes. In ways that makes sense with the rest of the prophecy and the actions and reaction of both Voldemort and Dumbledore, imo, no. I wasn't trying to be snarky.

I was just looking at the first two lines because that's what Snape had. I'm not going to go on with this because as I said before, I don't think he even thought about who are what the prophecy referred to beyond the fact that it concerned Voldemort.

Usually the simplest answer is the one right in front of (the general) you.

I'm familiar with with Occam's razor.

As soon as people see the word "born" they will immediately think "child" or "baby". You would have to literally look for alternative ways to interpret that. Which is what thi arguement for a different interpretation implies, imo.

I don't think Snape thought it through to the point. I don't think he cared beyond getting the information back to Voldemort. And yes, that is bad too. However, I don't think I went overboard in looking at the prophecy that way. I don't think I overcomplicated it to the point where I need to look at the simple answer. I've seen way more outlandish and overcomplicated theories thrown about in this thread, IMHO.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion. A prophecy is about the future. Anything in the past is specifically stated "have thrice defied". I see no other way to reconcile "approaches" and "dies" in anything other than the present/future. And apparently neither did DD or Voldy.

OK. My opinion isn't even that Snape thought much about the darned prophecy to begin with so that he even considered that a child was going to die. He didn't care. Didn't think it through. Didn't say to himself, "Awesome... some kid is going to bite it soon once Voldy hears this." His indifference is bad in and of itself, IMHO.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. There were only two people in the wizard world who could have been the chosen one. Harry and Neville. The fact that Voldemort saw Harry as more the threat does not mean that Neville was never a potential candidate.

I know this. I'm not disagreeing with it. I'm saying that the way Voldemort read the prophecy was important because he himself was required to choose the person that would have the power to defeat him, even if he didn't know it at the time. Just forget it. It doesn't matter.

I see this arguement again and again. He turned around because he loved Lily. Not because Lily deserved to live. But because he loved her. There is no inherrent value placed on her life. He despised her life. Her life with James. Her life with Harry. Her life with Marauders as her friends. Her life, yes, as a mudblood. All the value is placed on his need for her.

His need for her to what? He didn't have her. He didn't have anything to gain from her. He wanted her to live because he loved her. His love for her is not a bad thing, IMHO. I don't think it's painted as a bad thing in the series either.


I do not feel he changed in the least. I feel that he was cornered and had no reasonable way of backing out.

I strongly disagree with this, and that's all I'll say.

We'll just leave it at agreeing to disagree and that is that. Obviously you are happy with that option as well. :)

Harry is the best character ever! :love: But just because Harry forgave doesn't mean that what Snape did wasn't wrong.



Because once she died he had no one else. He was estranged from the DE and certainly the Order and most of the wizarding world. By working "in her name" it keeps what little of her he had left. And he could mold her memory to what he wanted it to be--not what it actually was. This is no more evident than when he rips up Sirius's picture. He ripped her life apart and kept her portion for him. That portion wasn't an accurate representation of how Lily was or what her life was like or why she was so precious and individual. All of that was left behind with the portion of the picture he didn't take.

Honestly, if he truly never cared about anything else and was only working "in her name" and never evolved into a bigger person, then why did he spare Neville, Ginny and Luna from the Carrows when he was the headmaster? Why did he tell the portrait not to use the term "mudblood?' Why on earth did he confess everything to Harry when he was dying (including the fact that he ripped the picture)? Those are the actions of someone who has committed themselves to the good side, beyond a purely selfish motivation, imo and is cognizant and remorseful for their past failures. It's not a perfect person, but a much better one than where he started out.

I don't think Snape thought it through to the point. I don't think he cared beyond getting the information back to Voldemort. And yes, that is bad too. However, I don't think I went overboard in looking at the prophecy that way. I don't think I overcomplicated it to the point where I need to look at the simple answer. I've seen way more outlandish and overcomplicated theories thrown about in this thread, IMHO.

Which part were we agreeing to disagree about? :) I'm not saying you were making outlandish theories. Rather I was saying Snape didn't have the liesure to think through a complicated theory such as that. His assumption would have been the first assumption that is born means child. As far as not thinking it through at all unless he had a cell phone and called Voldy immediately he would have had some time at least, just not enough to make heavy extrapolations. :)

His need for her to what? He didn't have her. He didn't have anything to gain from her. He wanted her to live because he loved her. His love for her is not a bad thing, IMHO. I don't think it's painted as a bad thing in the series either.

I think you do not wish to further discuss this and I respect that - so instead I open it up for general discussion. I think it was painted as a bad thing in the canon, but not worthless, imo. In otherwords, I don't feel Harry, when speaking of Snape, was condoning the idea that Snape's emotions for Lily that included an attempt to save her life, while allowing her family to die, was a good thing (imo). I do feel one can focus in real close and eliminate all surrounding factors and just look at "Love-----Lily" and conclude love in any form as a basic emotion is good (and we could do that for Bella regarding Voldy too). However, I feel that it wasn't just a situation of Snape having emotions for Lily and all is well as written. I think JKR took great pains to point out that Snape's focus was only centered on Lily in his asking Voldemort to spare her first; and then making a similar request of Dumbledore and having to be called upon it (DH TPT). In this regard, I feel Snape's emotion was painted as a bad thing (imo). In addition, Snape's emotion fueled his jealousy and dislike of Lily's husband in later years, imo, and resulted in his mistreatment of her son, imo. That too painted his emotions as a bad thing, imo. But in terms of worth, I think JKR was pointing out that the emotion also motivated Snape to work for Dumbledore, a positive consequence, so in that light his emotion wasn't worthless because it enabled Snape to do something positive - but in as far as his emotion toward Lily was concerned, I think JKR did paint that as bad in the canon (imo).

Honestly, if he truly never cared about anything else and was only working "in her name" and never evolved into a bigger person, then why did he spare Neville, Ginny and Luna from the Carrows when he was the headmaster? Why did he tell the portrait not to use the term "mudblood?' Why on earth did he confess everything to Harry when he was dying (including the fact that he ripped the picture)? Those are the actions of someone who has committed themselves to the good side, beyond a purely selfish motivation, imo and is cognizant and remorseful for their past failures. It's not a perfect person, but a much better one than where he started out.

I respect your view and I think it is a logical reading of the canon. However, I think it was written in such a way, to be purposely ambiguous. I don't recall canon indicating that Snape sent anyone to the Carrows at all, ever for detentions. My impression was that any infractions he discovered himself, he handled himself in line with Dumbledore's request to watch out for the kids. So I didn't see his sending Neville and friends to the Carrows as an option Snape would consider (imo). However, Snape had been characterized already in 6.5 books regarding his treatment of children; so his sending them off with Hagrid to the forest, which we were told had become unsafe even for Hagrid, could be interpreted as 'Carrow light' if you will, because there was danger involved (rather than for example sending them to clean toilets as he used to. And I realize that the Carrows and others would expect a heftier detention from Snape, but as headmaster, it would seem he'd have more say in it than them - but I don't know the intricacies of all of this, as canon didn't avail us of a closer look). The point being that his action was written ambiguously, imo. Showing Snape tell PN Black not to use the word Mudblood - to me harks back to it being a part of his worst memory and the catalyst for Lily ending their friendship, so I could interpret it as Snape simply disliking that word, not for what it means in general, but rather for what it means to him personally (imo) - or I could interpret it to mean that his overall view of prejudice had changed, imo. But again, ambiguous writing, imo. The picture incident was much more significant because I feel that JKR realized that the damage to Sirius and Harry as well as Snape's emotional situation could serve as a point of focus for readers (imo). This too was therefore a bit more complex as to whether it was to be ambiguous or simply a 'something for everybody' situation, imo. JKR could have had Snape look at a photo of Lily in a year book at his own home or whatever and gotten the same idea across in relation to Snape, imo, but instead she has him break into Sirius room (with all the connotations that calls to one's attention, their enemyship, and issues of disrespect and dislike and jealousy) wreck things in that room and then take what he wanted, despite it belonging to Harry and being something he knew Harry would value (and all the similar connotations related to Harry come to fore, imo). So Snape's including it in the memory becomes highly ambiguous, imo. Is he showing Harry how much disrespect and dislike he has for him, his dad and Sirius? is he showing him how much emotion he has for Lily? Is he showing him that Lily belongs to him and not to any of them by taking what he wanted? Is he letting Harry know he had those things so Harry can find them and regain his valuables? Well I think those are all valid questions and we get no answers - so again, I think it was written very ambiguously (imo).

I agree with you that Snape was in a more positive position at the end than he started out; he'd been a Death Eater. However, I don't think that these things and many other things serve to support that idea unequivocally because as I pointed out, they were written in a manner that is set up for an ambiguous reading, imo. I think the only way to see his more positive position is that he is loyal to Dumbledore and not Voldemort (imo), but that doesn't really address many of the issues raised throughout the series regarding Snape, imo.

I'm going to post a scene from PoA, as we've been beating this dead horse for what feels like years and have never come to any sort of result.

"Great, you can help me [with the Vampire essay]!" said Neville, his round face anxious.

"I don't understand that thing about garlic at all-- do they have to eat it or--"

He broke off with a small gasp, looking over Harry's shoulder.

It was Snape. Neville took a quick step behind Harry.

"And what are you two doing here?" said Snape, coming to a halt and looking from one to the other. "An odd place to meet --"

To Harry's immense disquiet, Snape's black eyes flicked to the doorways on either side of them, and then to the one-eyed witch.

"We're not -- meeting here," said Harry. "We just -- met here."

"Indeed?" said Snape. "You have a habit of turning up in unexpected places, Potter, and you are very rarely there for no good reason.... I suggest the pair of you return to Gryffindor Tower, where you belong."

Harry and Neville set off without another word. As they turned the corner, Harry looked back. Snape was running one of his hands over the one-eyed witch's head, examining it closely.

What do you think Snape is thinking here?
Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?
What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?
How do think Snape figured Harry was lying to him?

I would really like it if we could get rid of this blaming the victim mentality as it in no way reflects on Snape and is better dealt with in the James and Lily threads.There are many things on this thread that I would like to get rid of too. Sadly the threads are for people to post their opinions and not subject to the individual desries of the posters.

Having said that I agree that Lily and James are not "to blame" for being murdered. They were perhaps careless and stupid, but the fact remains that they were murdered and the person most culpable for that is the one who pointed the wand - Voldemort.

He warned Dumbledore and did nothing personally to keep them safe. That is incorrect. He warned Dumbledore and then said that he was prepared to do anything. Anything is not nothing. Furthermore when Severu Snape is held to account for being a Death Eater (after the fall of Voldemort when the DEs were being rounded up) Dumbledore speaks for him and says that he has been working against Voldemort at great personal risk to himself. Again I wouldn't call that nothing.

He could have planted himself outside and taken on Voldy himself.Yeah that would work! :rolleyes:

He made a mess and asked Dumbledore to clean it up.He made a mess and went to the one person who was capable of cleaning it up. I would say that was a wise move. I have said it before but perhaps you didn't want to read the thread before posting.

And his motivations for doing so were personal and not out of remorse for being instrumental in taking a human life.Just because his motivations was personal does not mean that he did not feel remorse. It is quite plain in the text that he felt remorse Dumbledore said it was the greatest regret of his life - ie he felt remorse. The motivation being personal and feeling remorse are not mutually exclusive.

If it had been Frank and Alice or anyone else that Snape didn't have a personal reason for I would buy his turnaround much more.
Why? Snape didn't go from being a full fledged Death Eater to Mr Nice Guy. He went from a fully fledged Death Eater to someone who was abruptly brought to face the consequences of his actions and slowly learns to value all human life. If he had gone from fully fledged Death Eater to caring, sharing Sev overnight I would not have bought that. What I really like about this series of books is that they are realistic.

If he was simply just sick of all the killing..but nope.
All what killing precisely?

It's Snape at the hieght of his selfishness.
Yeah he was really selfish to give up everything he had and offer to do anything to keep Lily safe.
What do you think Severus expected Dumbledore to do after Severus had given him the information regarding Lily and James? Do you think that Severus expected Dumbledore to say "Thanks Sev! Give my regards to Tom?" I think not. Severus was afraid on that hill. Afraid that Dumbledore who knew he was a Death Eater, would kill him on sight. I am sure he expected Dumbledore to at least hand him over to the Ministry. He was also afraid that Voldemort would find out what he had done and kill him.

What makes Voldy evil is not the fact that he kills people. :wow: I would be inclined to disagree!
By your reasoning Draco was already a murderer before he set foot on the astronomy tower and disarmed Dumbledore. Whatever our personal attitudes might be I think the author made a distinction between signing up to the idea that it is okay to kill people and actually killing them. I happen to agree that the two things are very different.
But just because Harry forgave doesn't mean that what Snape did wasn't wrong.You seem to misunderstand the concept of forgiveness. Forgiveness isn't saying that something was okay or that it wasn't wrong. On the contrary in order to need forgiveness you have to have done something wrong. Forgiveness means acknowledging that you have been wronged, but not allowing that to continue to make you feel anger and hatred towards the person. Similarly being redeemed doesn't mean that you haven't done anything wrong; it means that your wrongs have been wiped away. DH has some very strong Christian themes in it - themes of Love, Forgiveness, sacrifice and redemption and these themes are all linked together. Harry - who has a huge amount of love is able to forgive Snape; Snape who was a bitter man was unable to forgive the wrongs committed by others against him and so remained angry and full of hatred. He was also unable to forgive himself and was always burdened by his guilt. The contrast between them is severe. Harry is happy and emotionally well balanced as an adult; Severus isn't.

I do not feel he changed in the least. I feel that he was cornered and had no reasonable way of backing out.
Well to me it is right there in the books that Snape changed a great deal. Certainly that is what Jo intended and I personally think she achieved it admirably.

There are other ways to interpret the prophecy. Yes. In ways that makes sense with the rest of the prophecy and the actions and reaction of both Voldemort and Dumbledore, imo, no. I wasn't trying to be snarky. So you are saying that your interpretation of the text is the only right one? "huh:

I know that Severus Snape was a bad man.
I know he was a Death Eater.
I also know that he ceased to be a Death eater and worked for the Order of the Phoenix as a spy at great personal risk to himself.
He was redeemed.
Harry forgave him.
Harry named his son after him.

I love Severus Snape. He is a great character. I love his story arc. I am not going to change my mind. Get used to it.


I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss his character, not to put him on trial. Whatever a readers personal opinion of what Snape could have done I think the author makes it clear that Snape changed. I don't see how banging on about how evil he was as a Death Eater which funnily enough having read the books we know about, or how his remorse was imperfect because he didn't jump through hoops, adds anything to the discussion.

So you are saying that your interpretation of the text is the only right one? "huh:

I know that Severus Snape was a bad man.
I know he was a Death Eater.
I also know that he ceased to be a Death eater and worked for the Order of the Phoenix as a spy at great personal risk to himself.
He was redeemed.
Harry forgave him.
Harry named his son after him.

I love Severus Snape. He is a great character. I love his story arc. I am not going to change my mind. Get used to it.


I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss his character, not to put him on trial. Whatever a readers personal opinion of what Snape could have done I think the author makes it clear that Snape changed. I don't see how banging on about how evil he was as a Death Eater which funnily enough having read the books we know about, or how his remorse was imperfect because he didn't jump through hoops, adds anything to the discussion.

Well said, Cathy. :agree: One of the greater points about Snape's character is that he is redeemed. I see no reason why we must spend so much time arguing that point, rather than moving on to really gain a deeper understanding of his character.

That was why I posted the above scene.

Which part were we agreeing to disagree about? :) I'm not saying you were making outlandish theories. Rather I was saying Snape didn't have the liesure to think through a complicated theory such as that. His assumption would have been the first assumption that is born means child. As far as not thinking it through at all unless he had a cell phone and called Voldy immediately he would have had some time at least, just not enough to make heavy extrapolations. :)

I know you didn't say my theories were outlandish, but I also don't think I was over-complicating things so much so that I needed to be reminded of the Occam's razor thing. :) I don't think it's that complicated. However, I see what you mean now, and maybe I didn't explain myself well before. I'm not saying that Snape didn't have time or the ability to work out the prophecy. I'm saying that he probably didn't care to think about it beyond telling Voldemort what he heard. Just that his concern was getting out of there and getting to Voldy so he could relay what he heard and that's that. I'm not trying to excuse his indifference by stating this, btw. We disagree on this and other things when it comes to Snape. Can we just let it go now, please? I actually have a paper to write. :lol:

ETA: Great posts Cathy and ignisia. :tu: I want to add my two cents on the scene posted, but now I have to step out. Maybe later.

Thanks fro posting that Iggy! One of the things I love about PoA os trying to work out just how much Severus knows.


What do you think Snape is thinking here?
He is thinking Harry is up to something and he is determioned to find out what. Once again we see Severus taking an interest in what Harry is getting up to. It is no coincidence that it is always Severus who finds him. It's a great way to make us think that Snape is after Harry, and create the tension of the possibility of Harry being found out. But it is also indicative of the care Severus is taking about Harry's safety.

Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?
That's tough. I think it is possible that he has heard rumours about the secret passages and possibly that there is one associated with the witch. On the other hand it could just be that he is closely examining the witch for evidence of Harry's misdeeds!

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?
Harry is always up to something and Severus knows it. And as we know Severus is right. Harry isn't there for no good reason - he is there to try to sneak down the tunnel into Hogsmeade.
As Harry's chief protector, he spends a lot of time shadowing the boy and by third year he knows what Harry is like and that he is always up to something. I am sure this annoys Severus intensely because it makes his job of protecting Harry so much harder.

How do think Snape figured Harry was lying to him?
Harry is a really bad liar, and Snape has his number. He doesn't need legilimency to know Harry is up to no good.

So I read through five pages sprinkled with aggressiveness and snark that would have made Snape do this.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m37/eumelkeks/SnapeNewspaper.gif

We're closed for a few hours. Seriously, guys. How hard can it be to keep things civil in version 12? It's not as if suddenly new exciting arguments sprang up that need to be debunked right now before someone dies.

Ok let's try this again folks.

Be respectful of each other's opinions. If you see a post that is rude please report it. Also keep in mind that the ignore button is your friend.

I'm going to post a scene from PoA, as we've been beating this dead horse for what feels like years and have never come to any sort of result.
Thanks, Iggy!

Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?

Yes, I think he has suspicions that there is a passage. After Harry's head is seen by Malfoy in Hogsmeade, Snape seems to head straight for the statue.


PoA, Snape's Grudge
He reached the inside of the witch's hump, tapped it with his wand, stuck his head through and hoisted himself out; the hump closed, and just as Harry jumped out from behind the statue, he heard quick footsteps approaching.
It was Snape. he approached Harry at a swift walk, his black robes swishing, then stopped in front of him.
'So' he said.
There was a look of suppressed triumph about him.


How do think Snape figured Harry was lying to him?

I agree with Cathy, Harry is a really bad at lying.

Thanks for re-opening the thread Alwaysme. :)

What do you think Snape is thinking here?

I think he knew or suspected that Harry was trying to either leave Hogwarts for Hogsmeade or do something else which was out of bounds.

Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?

I don't think he does; but he suspects. He was seen inspecting it IIRC.
Or, perhaps he knew about it and was checking to see if it was closed.

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

That Snape felt Harry is in the process of breaking yet another School rule. :D

How do think Snape figured Harry was lying to him?

By Harry's attitude and words, which sounded guilty.

I'm going to post a scene from PoA, as we've been beating this dead horse for what feels like years and have never come to any sort of result.

"Great, you can help me [with the Vampire essay]!" said Neville, his round face anxious.

"I don't understand that thing about garlic at all-- do they have to eat it or--"

He broke off with a small gasp, looking over Harry's shoulder.

It was Snape. Neville took a quick step behind Harry.

"And what are you two doing here?" said Snape, coming to a halt and looking from one to the other. "An odd place to meet --"

To Harry's immense disquiet, Snape's black eyes flicked to the doorways on either side of them, and then to the one-eyed witch.

"We're not -- meeting here," said Harry. "We just -- met here."

"Indeed?" said Snape. "You have a habit of turning up in unexpected places, Potter, and you are very rarely there for no good reason.... I suggest the pair of you return to Gryffindor Tower, where you belong."

Harry and Neville set off without another word. As they turned the corner, Harry looked back. Snape was running one of his hands over the one-eyed witch's head, examining it closely.

What do you think Snape is thinking here?

We have to keep in mind that during POA the whole community and the castle is on the alert for Sirius Black whom they know is trying to get into the castle. So Snape and any Faculty member would want to be aware if there are any passages being used - or left open. Harry has a history of snooping around and exploring the castle and Neville - who in this same book left the passwords to Gryffindor tower out and about- is already acting defensive. So well, Snape is naturally suspicious.

Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?

He seems to be aware there is a passage there. If Snape knew about the passage way, but wasn't sure if Harry knew about it (and hoped he didn't) Snape might be fishing around to see if the boys did know about it. That would explain why he waited till they were gone to check it out. Then he would want to look for some kind of sign that it has been used recently, and/ or the 'lock' spell on it hasn't been altered or messed with. No doubt Snape is able to detect dark magic in the same way that Dumbledore can- so he might be checking for any of that.
This is a natural action since Sirius Black (assumed to be a killer and Death Eater) is supposedly trying to get into the castle and the suspected target of that supposed DE/Killer is standing right next to a passage way.


What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

Did he really say "no good reason"? LOL! This is a funny way of putting it, actually. "you are very rarely there for no good reason" is opposite of "you are very rarely there for a good reason" it's ironic. But- um... I think Snape is just making the point that if Harry is snooping around, he's into something and putting himself in danger- which isn't far from the mark.

How do think Snape figured Harry was lying to him?

Harry is a bad liar, but I am trying to remember the context of this scene. Was it after Malfoy reported him in Hogsmead? I can't help but think about Snape's ability to do Legilimency. But it wouldn't really be necessary here to see that Harry is acting odd. I'm going to assume that Snape was aware of the passage way and seeing Harry standing right next to it is just basic math.

Harry is a bad liar, but I am trying to remember the context of this scene. Was it after Malfoy reported him in Hogsmead? I can't help but think about Snape's ability to do Legilimency. But it wouldn't really be necessary here to see that Harry is acting odd. I'm going to assume that Snape was aware of the passage way and seeing Harry standing right next to it is just basic math.

Wasn't he covered in mud - I seem to remember his trying to rub it off his hands and trying to hide it from Severus. :)

Wasn't he covered in mud - I seem to remember his trying to rub it off his hands and trying to hide it from Severus. :)

Yeah, you remember correctly, kitt he did have mud on his hands.

Harry tried to look innocent, all too aware of his sweaty face and his muddy hands, which he quickly hid in his pockets.

I like that he tried to look innocent. Obviously, he didn't pull it off very well.:lol:

I think the scene Iggy gave before Harry left for Hogsmeade. Before Harry met Malfoy and before he got muddy. It's in Snape's Grudge, chapter. :)

Yes, the scene was before Harry went to Hogsmeade. The next time he is near the witch, his hands are all muddy and he tries to furtively clean them on the inside of his robes as Snape leads him to his office. :lol:

Here are my two cents:

What do you think Snape is thinking here?

I think he believes Harry is up to no good. Being on staff, he knows that Harry cannot go to Hogsmeade and that today is a Hogsmeade outing, so I think he added those facts into his calculations and came out with something very close to the truth: that Harry is willing to sneak off without permission. Snape is naturally concerned about this, what with Sirius on the loose, and so he tells Harry off and sends him to the common room. Then he investigates whatever clues he has when Harry is gone, probably to see if he can prevent Harry from sneaking away later.

Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?

I think he suspects it. Harry is acting mighty shifty. I think that by looking at the doors, and then the witch, he is looking to find the means by which Harry would think to sneak away.

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

The reason I ask this was that it always throws me off a little every time I reread it. I always expect Snape to say something negative to Harry, but when I read that question, I can't help but translate it to "whenever you are someplace, you are there for a good reason", rather than what Snape no doubt wanted to say, which was "whenever you are someplace, you must be up to something".

I wonder if JKR was using some wordplay here. Harry is, after all, known for breaking school rules in order to do some good (though this particular instance is not one of those), and she could be hinting at this for some reason.

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

The reason I ask this was that it always throws me off a little every time I reread it. I always expect Snape to say something negative to Harry, but when I read that question, I can't help but translate it to "whenever you are someplace, you are there for a good reason", rather than what Snape no doubt wanted to say, which was "whenever you are someplace, you must be up to something".

I wonder if JKR was using some wordplay here. Harry is, after all, known for breaking school rules in order to do some good (though this particular instance is not one of those), and she could be hinting at this for some reason.

It's the syntax - it's actually a double negative because you can rewrite it:

"You are not usually there for no good reason."

So to translate that is difficult, but I think he is saying that Harry wasn't just there by accident, but had a purpose or a reason.

Also it's sort of a play on the words of the Marauder's Map. Snape wouldn't know that, but the reader would. :)

"Up to no good" = "For No Good Reason"

Something like that, anyway.

Hmmm...But if "Up to no good" is equal to "For no good reason", couldn't that be substituted to read "You are very rarely there when up to no good"? It seems like there are two ways to look at at sentence.

I have no doubt that Snape himself meant to say Harry was up to mischief, but the sentence itself reads so awkwardly that I cannot help but wonder about it.

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

The reason I ask this was that it always throws me off a little every time I reread it. I always expect Snape to say something negative to Harry, but when I read that question, I can't help but translate it to "whenever you are someplace, you are there for a good reason", rather than what Snape no doubt wanted to say, which was "whenever you are someplace, you must be up to something".

To me "you are rarely there for no good reason" simply means "you are usually there for a particular reason", "in almost every case, you had a very specific purpose in being there". I think it is a response to Harry saying that he and Neville "just met here" - Harry is pretending that he doesn't have any particular reason for stopping in this bit of the corridor, it's just random coincidence that he happened to have stopped to talk to Neville in this place, and Snape doesn't buy that.

Is he aware that there is or may be a passage beyond the one-eyed witch?
How do think Snape figured Harry was lying to him?


My understanding of this scene is, yes, he does realise there's a passage there and he figures out both that and the fact that Harry is lying through legilimency. He looks at Harry and Neville, then at the passage. Could be wrong, though, as he doesn't do the eyes-boring-into-Harry stunt on this occasion.

My understanding of this scene is, yes, he does realise there's a passage there and he figures out both that and the fact that Harry is lying through legilimency. He looks at Harry and Neville, then at the passage. Could be wrong, though, as he doesn't do the eyes-boring-into-Harry stunt on this occasion.
If he was using Legilimency, wouldn't images have flashed in Harry's head? That's what happened in HBP when Snape asked Harry about sectumsempra. I feel that if Snape used Legilimency, Harry would have at least asked Hermione what happened to him.

To me "you are rarely there for no good reason" simply means "you are usually there for a particular reason", "in almost every case, you had a very specific purpose in being there".

This is what I understand it to mean too. :)

If he was using Legilimency, wouldn't images have flashed in Harry's head? That's what happened in HBP when Snape asked Harry about sectumsempra.

Good point, but remember that was after Harry had become aware that Snape was a Legilimens and he was actively trying to stop him from drawing the thoughts out of him.

I'm sure that there's another point in the books, a long time before the moment in OotP when Harry first discovers Snape's Legilimens status, where it says that Harry had an odd feeling, not for the first time, that Snape was able to read his mind.

This implies that Snape has used Legilimency on Harry before Occlumency lessons began, but as far as I remember, it is only after Occlumency lessons begin, when Harry is actively trying to block Snape, that the rush of images through Harry's mind is talked about. This implies to me that on the previous occasions when Snape read Harry's mind, Harry didn't get the rush of images. I think it only becomes that blatant when you are actually using Occlumency against the Legilimens and having a mental tug-of-war to stop them accessing your mental images.

Could be wrong though, as my knowledge of the books is far sketchier than a lot of you guys'.

Besides which, as Snape is a Legilimens, why wouldn't he use his powers at this point? He suspects Harry of lying and has the means at his disposal to find out the truth - it just seems to me to be the obvious thing for him to do.

I'm sure that there's another point in the books, a long time before the moment in OotP when Harry first discovers Snape's Legilimens status, where it says that Harry had an odd feeling, not for the first time, that Snape was able to read his mind.

You're right, it's in PS:

Harry didn't know whether he was imagining it or not, but he seemed to keep running into Snape wherever he went. At times, he even wondered whether Snape was following him, trying to catch him on his own. Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible to Harry. Could Snape possibly know they'd found out about the Sorcerer's Stone? Harry didn't see how he could—yet he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds.

It's funny how Harry suspects Snape is following him. He seems to view it as unlikely at the time, but we later learn that that may well be what Snape was doing. After Quirrell's stunt at the first Quidditch match and the troll incident (not to mention the trio's habit of sneaking out), he's not going to take chances.

Thinking about this scene, Snape seems to suspect that Harry is up to something. He is also curious about the statue. So, I was wondering if Snape suspects that Lupin has told Harry how to get out of the castle to Hogsmeade.

Thanks for finding the quotation, ignisia!

I've a feeling there is at least one other reference to Snape reading minds before we are told about the Legilimency, suggesting that Snape has used his powers on Harry before OotP, without Harry becoming as dramatically aware of it as he is in the Sectumsempra scene in HBP..

Thinking about this scene, Snape seems to suspect that Harry is up to something. He is also curious about the statue. So, I was wondering if Snape suspects that Lupin has told Harry how to get out of the castle to Hogsmeade.

I'd forgotten that this was the book where Snape suspects Lupin of being in league with Sirius and putting Harry in danger, but, yes, I think you're right.

Btw, I've long wondered why Snape didn't use Legilimency on Lupin to find out whether or not he really was assisting Sirius in PoA.

Before anyone says it, no, I don't think that's "proof" that Snape knew all along that Lupin and Sirius were innocent. Apart from anything else, the Wizengamot do not seem to have thought to use Legilimency when trying Sirius to establish his guilt beyond doubt/collect intelligence on other DEs, so he's by no means the only Legilimens in the series to not use his powers at times when you'd think it would be the obvious thing to do. And, secondly, Dumbledore doesn't suggest Snape use Legilimency if he doesn't believe him, when Snape keeps badgering him about it being unwise to trust Lupin - which, again, would seem the obvious tactic to convince him of Lupin's innocence.

It had just occured to me that, by this stage in the story, Black had somehow mysteriously entered the castle, to which Severus suspected Lupin's involvement. Also, he had seen Harry in Lupin's ofice having a little tete a tete. I think Severus thought that if Lupin helped Black get into the castle, then he could lure Harry out. And, on what better pretence than to help him get into Hogsmeade to be with his friends. This could explain why Severus was so supicious of what Harry was doing hanging around the corridor.

So, I was wondering if Snape suspects that Lupin has told Harry how to get out of the castle to Hogsmeade.

Lupin seems to believe that Snape suspects this of him, although under different circumstances:

"Indeed?" said Snape. His jaw had gone rigid with anger. "You think a joke shop could supply him with such a thing? You don't think it more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?"

"Why did Snape think I'd got it from the manufacturers?"

"Because...," Lupin hesitated, "because these mapmakers would have wanted to lure you out of school. They'd think it extremely entertaining."

I think Snape did indeed think Lupin was trying to get Harry out of the castle. He doesn't seem to know yet about the map when he accosts Harry and Neville outside the one-eyed witch staute, but when he later gets his hands on it, I think his suspicions are all but confirmed in his mind.

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

I think it's a twisted way to say 'You rarely have a good reason to be there.'

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley
What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

I think it's a twisted way to say 'You rarely have a good reason to be there.'

Actually, I think it means that 'You are rarely there by coincidence'

I've a feeling there is at least one other reference to Snape reading minds before we are told about the Legilimency, suggesting that Snape has used his powers on Harry before OotP, without Harry becoming as dramatically aware of it as he is in the Sectumsempra scene in HBP..

Yes, I have the same interpretation of it. Also, it seems to me that for legilimency to be effective at all it must normally be a subtle spell that the person being "read" wouldn't necessarily be aware of. A Spy would have little use for a spell that would alert someone to being "read."

The only cases we have 'proof' of the spell being used in a blatant manner were in OOP when Harry is being taught to block it and when Harry is being asked about the Potions book after SectumSempra. This is after Harry is made aware of the spell and is looking for it to be used on him.


I'd forgotten that this was the book where Snape suspects Lupin of being in league with Sirius and putting Harry in danger, but, yes, I think you're right.

Btw, I've long wondered why Snape didn't use Legilimency on Lupin to find out whether or not he really was assisting Sirius in PoA.

Before anyone says it, no, I don't think that's "proof" that Snape knew all along that Lupin and Sirius were innocent. Apart from anything else, the Wizengamot do not seem to have thought to use Legilimency when trying Sirius to establish his guilt beyond doubt/collect intelligence on other DEs, so he's by no means the only Legilimens in the series to not use his powers at times when you'd think it would be the obvious thing to do. And, secondly, Dumbledore doesn't suggest Snape use Legilimency if he doesn't believe him, when Snape keeps badgering him about it being unwise to trust Lupin - which, again, would seem the obvious tactic to convince him of Lupin's innocence.

Well, I can't recall exactly where, but I think there is a moment when Snape and Lupin clash and Lupin pointedly averts his eyes from Snape. I took it that Lupin was aware of Snape's ability and dodged it- which may have made Snape all that more suspicious. Plus, in the Shack, Lupin admits he did feel a sense of responsibility about not revealing Black's animagus form and admitted that he wanted to talk or meet up with Sirius himself- so he may not have wanted Snape to see that in his mind.

But exactly how Legilimency works and what the "ethical" guidelines would be are left to the imagination I guess. I get the sense that Legilimency works best when the subject is completely unaware of it and is lead into making direct eye contact or - like Snape in the first chapter of DH- completely complacent and allows it to happen.

As far as the "legal" ramifications, I got the sense that it may not be the most ethical thing to do in most court cases, something like using veritaserum on a witness. But perhaps also, it is not an exact "record" of events like a court case would need. Snape says in OOP the mind can't be "read" like a book, so I assume it wouldn't be the kind of thing that would be applicable in a courtroom.

"Why did Snape think I'd got it from the manufacturers?"

"Because...," Lupin hesitated, "because these mapmakers would have wanted to lure you out of school. They'd think it extremely entertaining."

And why would they find it entertaining in this instance? Because it's the one thing Snape doesn't want Harry to do. :lol:

*imagines the Map chuckling softly to itself as Snape follows Harry around*

What is meant by "you are very rarely there for no good reason"?

The reason I ask this was that it always throws me off a little every time I reread it. I always expect Snape to say something negative to Harry, but when I read that question, I can't help but translate it to "whenever you are someplace, you are there for a good reason", rather than what Snape no doubt wanted to say, which was "whenever you are someplace, you must be up to something".

I wonder if JKR was using some wordplay here. Harry is, after all, known for breaking school rules in order to do some good (though this particular instance is not one of those), and she could be hinting at this for some reason.

I never thought of this Iggy. I thought Snape knew Harry was lying, by just seeing him in a place he had no reason to be and in Harry's mannerisms. That Snape was trying to find a reason for Harry's presence there by this question never occured to me. :)

Snape was also not employing Legilimency; which would have told him the reason; maybe he would do so, only when there was a serious danger, like wanting to know about the sectumsempra and a bit later than this scene in POA, when he confronts Harry.

Thanks for finding the quotation, ignisia!

I've a feeling there is at least one other reference to Snape reading minds before we are told about the Legilimency, suggesting that Snape has used his powers on Harry before OotP, without Harry becoming as dramatically aware of it as he is in the Sectumsempra scene in HBP..

I think it was in POA, when he looks deeply into Harry's eyes, when Harry is denying being in Hogsmeade, before abruptly calling Lupin to ask him about the parchment.

Btw, I've long wondered why Snape didn't use Legilimency on Lupin to find out whether or not he really was assisting Sirius in PoA.

It could be because Lupin knew some basic or proper Occlumency; or because Lupin knew about Snape's Legillimens, which I think is unlikely, because they had not started working together in the Order or because they were not close enough for Snape to employ Legilimency. I think it was the last reason; Snape and Lupin had not been in a place close enough to each other, for Snape to employ Legilimency.

It's funny how Harry suspects Snape is following him. He seems to view it as unlikely at the time, but we later learn that that may well be what Snape was doing. After Quirrell's stunt at the first Quidditch match and the troll incident (not to mention the trio's habit of sneaking out), he's not going to take chances.
Having young boys to introduce to the wonders of the Harry Potter books I often find myself reading PS to them. Re-reading this after DH I remember snickering and thinking that Snape was following Harry - just not for the reason Harry thought.

Apart from anything else, the Wizengamot do not seem to have thought to use Legilimency when trying Sirius to establish his guilt beyond doubt/collect intelligence on other DEs, so he's by no means the only Legilimens in the series to not use his powers at times when you'd think it would be the obvious thing to do. And, secondly, Dumbledore doesn't suggest Snape use Legilimency if he doesn't believe him, when Snape keeps badgering him about it being unwise to trust Lupin - which, again, would seem the obvious tactic to convince him of Lupin's innocence.
I don't think that legilimency is used by the Ministry or Dumbledore to try to establish guilt or innocence because it isn't infallible - as Severus makes abundantly clear! Voldemort however is arrogant enough to think that nobody would be a good enough occlumens to fool him. Dumbledore and the Ministry are not so arrogant.


It had just occured to me that, by this stage in the story, Black had somehow mysteriously entered the castle, to which Severus suspected Lupin's involvement. Also, he had seen Harry in Lupin's ofice having a little tete a tete. I think Severus thought that if Lupin helped Black get into the castle, then he could lure Harry out. And, on what better pretence than to help him get into Hogsmeade to be with his friends. This could explain why Severus was so supicious of what Harry was doing hanging around the corridor. :agree: He really is working overtime here! He is taking Harry's safety very seriously indeed.
I think Snape did indeed think Lupin was trying to get Harry out of the castle. He doesn't seem to know yet about the map when he accosts Harry and Neville outside the one-eyed witch staute, but when he later gets his hands on it, I think his suspicions are all but confirmed in his mind. I love that conversation between Lupin and Snape about the map. I am still trying to figure out exactly who knows what! For example when Snape makes the "direct from the maunfacturers" comment is that because he recognises the nicknames of the Marauders so he is effectively accusing Lupin of giving it to Harry? That is what I have always thought.

But it is a great conversation - Snape thinks Sirius is trying to kill Harry and Remus is helping him and perhaps gave Harry the map; Remus thinks Sirius is trying to kill Harry and perhaps planted the map of dropped it when he entered the castle. I imagine it was quite difficult but great fun to write.


And why would they find it entertaining in this instance? Because it's the one thing Snape doesn't want Harry to do. Also Sirius was one of the map makers and Remus like everyone else thinks he is trying to kill Harry. Perhaps Remus also thinks that Sirius would be amused by using their old map to lure Harry out to his death.

I think it was in POA, when he looks deeply into Harry's eyes, when Harry is denying being in Hogsmeade, before abruptly calling Lupin to ask him about the parchment.That always makes me laugh now because Harry is determined to maintain eye contact and even says something like it was like trying to stare down a hippogriff, but of course we find out in OotP that eye contact is what is needed to perform leglimency.

There is also the occasion in GoF when Severus threatens Harry with veritaserum and Harry is thinking about all the secrets (such as his letters from Sirius) he has to keep. I often wondered if Sev was taking a sneak peek then.

:agree: He really is working overtime here! He is taking Harry's safety very seriously indeed.

Yes, and it is easy to see why Severus gets so angry with Harry.

'Everyone from the Minister for Magic downwards has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself. Let the ordinary people worry about his safety.'

To me this sounds just like an angry parent chastising their child for putting themselves in danger.


I love that conversation between Lupin and Snape about the map. I am still trying to figure out exactly who knows what! For example when Snape makes the "direct from the maunfacturers" comment is that because he recognises the nicknames of the Marauders so he is effectively accusing Lupin of giving it to Harry? That is what I have always thought.

:agree: I always thought that too.

To me this sounds just like an angry parent chastising their child for putting themselves in danger.It sounds exactly like the sort of thing that I would say to one of my children! :whistle:

That always makes me laugh now because Harry is determined to maintain eye contact and even says something like it was like trying to stare down a hippogriff, but of course we find out in OotP that eye contact is what is needed to perform leglimency.

:agree: And Harry is thinking just about the thing he does not want Snape to find out. :)

This chapter moves me a bit, it is more like a parent/child interaction, like TT said. Snape is scolding him, Harry is defiant, then he gets angry when Snape talks about James and suddenly shouts and even tells Snape to 'SHUT UP!' but Snape takes it all in, concentrating more on getting the Map parchment out of Harry's hands. Knowing that if he confiscated it, Harry would not receive it from him (that would be seen as a very soft stance for Snape IMO), he calls Lupin, hands over the Map to him, tells him that there is a danger because of the Map, and sends Harry away, without a single point taken off him or a detention even.

I think its these things which makes me feel Snape did not hate Harry (this was as early as POA) but cared for him in his own way. His bark was certainly worse than his bite IMO. :)

There is also the occasion in GoF when Severus threatens Harry with veritaserum and Harry is thinking about all the secrets (such as his letters from Sirius) he has to keep. I often wondered if Sev was taking a sneak peek then.

:agree: It is certainly possible, Snape is able to read minds with remarkable ease. (in sectumsempra - HBP)

I love that conversation between Lupin and Snape about the map. I am still trying to figure out exactly who knows what! For example when Snape makes the "direct from the maunfacturers" comment is that because he recognises the nicknames of the Marauders so he is effectively accusing Lupin of giving it to Harry? That is what I have always thought.

The way I see it, at the beginning of the scene, Snape knows absolutely nothing except that Harry has just somehow snuck out of the castle and pelted Draco with mud, and that the one-eyed witch must have something to do with it (that would be why he met Harry there, knowing exactly where he'd be).

As the scene progresses, Harry's failure to lie gives Snape more information.

"So!" said Snape, his long nostrils quivering. "Is this another treasured gift from Mr. Weasley? Or is it -- something else? A letter, perhaps, written in invisible ink? Or -- instructions to get into Hogsmeade without passing the dementors?"

Harry blinked. Snape's eyes gleamed.

He seems to be listing off possible uses for the map and knows he has hit upon the right track when Harry reacts.

When the Marauders' nicknames appear, he is convinced that Lupin has given Harry the map in an attempt to lure him into Sirius' hands. He confronts Lupin and accuses him (oddly enough, being careful not to give Harry more information). Lupin, who knows his own conscience is not clear, denies everything and avoids Snape's eye. Snape misinterprets Lupin's actions and becomes almost certain that Lupin is in league with Sirius.

Harry makes a point not to look at Snape when he and Lupin leave the office, but I wonder what he'd have seen if he had looked back. Anger? Or fear?

There is also the occasion in GoF when Severus threatens Harry with veritaserum and Harry is thinking about all the secrets (such as his letters from Sirius) he has to keep. I often wondered if Sev was taking a sneak peek then.

:agree: I wouldn't be surprised. In OotP, Snape's description of Legilimency suggests that the Legilimens can pull both feelings and memories from the victim. If Snape pulled out Harry feelings of secrecy and memories of the lies he has told without context and specific thoughts, that would only bolster his conclusion that Harry has been stealing from him.

And why would they find it entertaining in this instance? Because it's the one thing Snape doesn't want Harry to do. :lol:

*imagines the Map chuckling softly to itself as Snape follows Harry around*

And what Snape wants is basically for Harry to be good and stay put. The map only works for those who are up to no good. :elaugh:

And what Snape wants is basically for Harry to be good and stay put. The map only works for those who are up to no good. :elaugh:
:agree: Good point! ;)


To me this sounds just like an angry parent chastising their child for putting themselves in danger.
It sounds exactly like the sort of thing that I would say to one of my children!

Me too! Usually the more dangerous something is, the more sarcastic parents become. Part of that is anger and part is disbelief that a child would do the exact opposite of what you tell them to do, but some children are like that, and Harry is famous for it.

I was wondering if we could look at the scene where Snape finds the Marauders map in Harry's possession. Unfortunatley I am far to lazy to get my book and type it out and I feel sure that many of you know somewhere you can cut and paste it from. *insert begging smiley* ;)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/The_Green_Woods/IMG_0001.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/The_Green_Woods/IMG_0002.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/The_Green_Woods/IMG_0003.jpg

Have posted it Cathy. :)

TGW: Thank you so much for posting that! :clap:
And also thanks to Kittling who owled the scene to me.

As it is so long perhaps we should split it into manageable sections to discuss

He reached the inside of the witch's hump, tapped it with his wand, stuck his head through, and hoisted himself out; the hump closed, and just as Harry jumped out from behind the statue, he heard quick footsteps approaching.

It was Snape. He approached Harry at a swift walk, his black robes swishing, then stopped in front of him.

"So," he said.

There was a look of surpressed triumph about him. Harry tried to look innocent, all too aware of his sweaty face and his muddy hands, which he quickly hid in his pockets.

"Come with me, Potter," said Snape.

Harry followed him downstairs, trying to wipe his hands clean on the inside of his robes without Snape noticing. They walked down the stairs to the dungeons and then into Snape's office.

Harry had been in here only once before, and he had been in very serious trouble then too. Snape had aquired a few more slimy horrible things in jars since last time, all standing on shelves behind his desk, glinting in the firelight and adding to the threatening atmosphere.

"Sit," said Snape.

Harry sat. Snape, however, remained, standing.

IMO this scene would seem to confirm that Severus knew there was a passage way to Hogsmeade from the witch's statue. He knew exactly where to find Harry and there is no preamble such as "What are you doing here again Potter?" Having spoken to Malfoy he knows Harry was in Hogsmeade and he also knows how Harry got there. The air of supressed triumph also suggests that he knows he has caught Harry out.

Also note the robes are swishing!

You are welcome. :)

Did you mean Snape knew it from before? That is possible :agree:, though I think Snape did the Maths. He saw Harry standing there some time back and when he heard Malfoy's account, I think he put 2 and 2 together and came hurriedly to catch Harry in the act as it were, only Harry had just come out and closed the witch's hump.

Snape's pretty intimidating, IMO. He's trying to scare Harry into an apology/confession like the sectumsempra incident in HBP, when Harry blurts out that he did not mean it the moment Snape returns after sending Malfoy away.

But this time, Harry's sitting on it, he did not know, his thoughts were sending out all information Snape needed. :)

And the swishing robes!

IMO this scene would seem to confirm that Severus knew there was a passage way to Hogsmeade from the witch's statue. He knew exactly where to find Harry and there is no preamble such as "What are you doing here again Potter?" Having spoken to Malfoy he knows Harry was in Hogsmeade and he also knows how Harry got there. The air of supressed triumph also suggests that he knows he has caught Harry out.

Also note the robes are swishing!

Yes, I think Snape definately suspected there was a passage, as he knew exactly where to find Harry after Draco had informed him of seeing Harry's head in Hogsmeade. I wonder if he had often seen the Marauders hanging about in the same spot when he used to follow them around, and put two and two together when he saw Harry there, which is why he inspected the witch's hump.

I always felt that the reason he went to the the witch's statue was that he supected there was a tunnel there - I always suspected that he had seen the mauraders hanging round it when he was a student and his suspicions developed from there. When he saw Harry hanging around it with Neville earlier that day I think it reminded him of thosoe supicions - finding Harry there after Malfoy's report confirmed them. It must have been so fustrating knowing it was there but not knowing how to prove it!

:tu: I too think that Snape suspected that Harry was somehow using the witch to get into Hogsmeade and decided to check it out after Draco came to him. That's why he was there when Harry arrived.

Naturally, I'm sure he also sees through Harry and can tell that he has run all the way back. :whistle:

When he saw Harry hanging around it with Neville earlier that day I think it reminded him of thosoe supicions - finding Harry there after Malfoy's report confirmed them. It must have been so fustrating knowing it was there but not knowing how to prove it!

If that was the case, it might have also have bridged another connection between Harry and James in his mind, both of whom Snape would now remember using that passage to sneak off and assault Slytherin students.

If that was the case, it might have also have bridged another connection between Harry and James in his mind, both of whom Snape would now remember using that passage to sneak off and assault Slytherin students.

No wonder Severus's mind turns to James.


'How extraordinary like your father you are, Potter,' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glittring. ' He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch pitch made him think he was a cut above the rest of us, too. Strutting about the place with his friends and admirers....the resemblence between you is uncanny.'

Of course Severus can see the resemblence between Harry and his father, as Harry is obviously sneaking out of the castle like James did.

Naturally, I'm sure he also sees through Harry and can tell that he has run all the way back.Teachers are far more savvy than pupils ever give them credit for! And Jo was a teacher too if I remember correctly.

Here's the next part of it:

Mr. Malfoy has just been to see me with a strange story, Potter," said Snape.

Harry didn't say anything.

"He tells me that he was up by the Shrieking Shack when he ran into Weasley -- apparently alone."

Still, Harry didn't speak.

"Mr. Malfoy states that he was standing talking to Weasley, when a large amount of mud hit him in the back of the head. How do you think that could have happened?"

Harry tried to look mildly surprised.

"I don't know, Professor."

Snape's eyes were boring into Harry's. It was exactly like trying to stare down a hippogriff. Harry tried hard not to blink.

"Mr. Malfoy then saw an extraordinary apparition. Can you imagine what it might have been, Potter?"

"No," said Harry, now trying to sound innocently curious.

"It was your head, Potter. Floating in midair."

There was a long silence.

"Maybe he'd better go to Madam Pomfrey," said Harry. "If he's seeing things like --"

"What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter?" said Snape softly. "Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade."

"I know that," said Harry, striving to keep his face free of guilt or fear. "It sounds like Malfoy's having hallucin --"

"Malfoy is not having hallucinations," snarled Snape, and he bent down, a hand on each arm of Harry's chair, so that their faces were a foot apart. "If your head was in Hogsmeade, so was the rest of you."

"I've been up in Gryffindor Tower," said Harry. "Like you told --" "Can anyone confirm that?"

Harry didn't say anything. Snape's thin mouth curled into a horrible smile.


Was Snape using legilimency in this scene?

I am not sure that it was necessary as Snape seems to know exactly what Harry has been doing.

This scene also contains one of my favourite lines

"What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter?" said Snape softly. "Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade."

:rotfl:

No wonder Severus's mind turns to James.


'How extraordinary like your father you are, Potter,' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glittring. ' He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch pitch made him think he was a cut above the rest of us, too. Strutting about the place with his friends and admirers....the resemblence between you is uncanny.'

Of course Severus can see the resemblence between Harry and his father, as Harry is obviously sneaking out of the castle like James did.

I agree, and interestingly, Snape's MO hasn't changed either, imo, except in the case of Harry, Snape is a professor.

Was Snape using legilimency in this scene?

I am not sure that it was necessary as Snape seems to know exactly what Harry has been doing.

I think Snape used Legilimency then, and Harry was making it much easier for him by trying not to blink :lol: I agree that it was not necessary but Snape was just trying to prove himself right, he wanted to prove that Harry was sneaking out of Hogwarts.

Was Snape using legilimency in this scene?

Hm...Would he have a reason to? He knows everything, and Harry's guilty face just makes it more apparent.

I think he's mainly trying to let Harry know he's onto him. He may be giving Harry a chance to confess, as he does in GoF.

Also, I remember in the old days of DevSev, there used to be something called The Field Guide to Severus Snape, where many of Snape's common mannerisms were translated. I think those cases where Snape's voice drops low is one of them: it means he's getting angrier than before! And after Harry makes up an excuse about Draco seeing things, that would make sense...:eeep:

(And I'm partial to "If your head was in Hogsmeade, so was the rest of you." :rotfl: Love that line!)

Was Snape using legilimency in this scene?

To read surface thoughts at the very least IMO.

Snape would have put together roughly the events that happened; he saw Harry near the witch with Neville; then Malfoy comes in and tells him that he has seen Harry's head; right away Snape connects it to the one eyes witch and starts there, only to catch Harry. Harry is sweating and muddy as well. Snape being Snape would have dotted all the i's and crossed the t's IMO.

I think Snape did peep, when his eyes bored into Harry's. He would have got the whole story then. Snape would not have known about the Map, and since he asked Harry to turn out his pockets just a bit later, I think he may have peeped into Harry's mind.
--------

I loved Harry's answer too in this part.

He was really brave :lol: IMO when he says this to Snape and he's on the verge of being punished for disobeying the rules.

There was a long silence.

"Maybe he'd better go to Madam Pomfrey," said Harry. "If he's seeing things like --"

He may be giving Harry a chance to confess, as he does in GoF.


He also did the same in HBP when Harry used Sectumsempra, but I dont think he was giving him a chance to confess as much as enjoying Harry's trouble, imo Snape was not that noble with Harry, years ago he saw James breaking rules freely and he couldnt do anything about it, but now as a teacher he had much influence and could punish Harry as he pleases, I think in such situations Snape was being nasty with Harry, if he knows that Harry is guilty why not just punish him, without trying to force the truth out of him when he knows that he would never tell it? He never got a direct confession from Harry, he usually used Legilimency like in HBP.

I don't think Snape was using legilimency ever with Harry except in the lessons. It isn't that I feel Snape would have a problem with invading the right to privacy of others, rather I feel he just believed he knew what they were thinking and there was no need for it except in extreme circumstances (imo). For example, with Draco, it was a life and death matter, but in the other cases, it is just a matter of detention or no detention and I don't feel he'd bother trying to use it then. Also, if he had been using it all those times, I think Harry would have metioned it in his POV once he found out how it feels to be legilimized in that manner after OOTP and he never accused Snape of invading his mind, iirc. So I don't think Snape violated his students' minds / rights in that regard, or Harry's, unless it was life and death (imo).

Also note the robes are swishing!

This may be the most important clue! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Smileys/sherlock.gif

Also, I remember in the old days of DevSev, there used to be something called The Field Guide to Severus Snape, where many of Snape's common mannerisms were translated. I think those cases where Snape's voice drops low is one of them: it means he's getting angrier than before! And after Harry makes up an excuse about Draco seeing things, that would make sense...

Ignisia: The Field Guide to Severus Snape ~ with thanks to Morgan Emerald who saved it Here (http://www.thehpn.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=2845.0).

Quote from: mdeligan, Snape's Character Development Through HBP v7, March 4th, 2006, Post 1080

Peterson’s Field Guide to Severus Snape

# Detentions, sarcasm, extra essays and the deduction of points = Regular frustration and annoyance.

# Suspicion of being lied to = Will give the person in question the chance to come clean before accusing him or her of lying (does not directly accuse Remus of lying about the map out of professional courtesy). If that person fails to take advantage of this opportunity, the following will occur: Hippogriff stare, possible Legilimency; torturous line of lawyer-like questioning.

# Blank "inscrutable" face = Onslaught of powerful emotions and an attempt to process them without giving facial expression.

# Lowering of voice to near whisper and possible flushing of face = Growing anger.

# Stalking out of the room; or if that is not an option, pretending you are not there = Effort to control a dangerous level of anger that he is feeling while in the vicinity of those he respects (Dumbledore, the Weasleys) or in a professional environment (the classroom).

# CAPSLOCK yelling; physical expulsion of the cause of anger for his or her own safety; flying cockroach jars = Volcanic anger.

# Paling or whitening of face = Emotional pain and anguish.

# Glittering eyes = A sense of anticipation of having the upper hand or an advantage somehow over someone who is unsuspecting.**

**There was a debate about what the description "glittering eyes" means and I'm not sure if there ever was an agreement.

# phoenixpotion glittering eyes and pale face = combination of fear (or apprehension) and determination.

Marauder Rules: When will Severus talk about the Marauders or specifically James?

1) When another person raises the topic in his presence and presses for a response.

2) When Severus sees Harry acting like James in terms of behavior and attitude, especially if he detects arrogance. The point is to bring it to Harry's attention and deter him from doing it again; don't be like your father or his friends.

The only instance that may not fit into either of these categories is the time in POA when Severus brings up the werewolf "prank" to Dumbledore after the first break-in as a reminder of what Sirius Black is capable of. In this case, Severus raises it voluntarily because he thinks the information is relevant to the security of the school.

Quote from: mdeligan, Snape's Character Development Through HBP v8, March 26th, 2006, Post 90
Just a few comments on the Field Guide for those who are not familiar with it.

The Field Guide is written to identify patterns of behavior, body language and facial expressions which can be interpreted independently of the Harry filter. Often Harry finds himself unable to understand Severus' reactions and 99% of the time he marks them down as "inscrutable" or anger. A rare moment is when he detects something else. Part of this is due to Harry's unwillingness to understand Severus, while Severus himself puts in considerable effort to hide his emotions from others, including anger when possible. Any emotional display is a sign of weakness, in his opinion. When cracks start to appear in his armor, the first sign is sarcasm, then varying degrees of anger. But Severus has shown other emotions - fear, pride, humor and anticipation - to Harry as well to others.

The reason why this is important is that there are some passages in the books when Severus is actually feeling anguish and possibly fear (whitening of the face) while Harry is telling us that it is anger. When anguish-fear replace anger, the scene takes on new meaning.

The same is true for understanding why Severus walks out of a room or gives Harry the silent treatment after the infamous Pensieve dive. These are moments when he is trying extremely hard to regain control of his emotions and not cause another person - Dumbledore, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley - further disrespect. Some may interpret the walking out as being a rude action by itself, but if the alternative is to go full throttle capslocks, then it is a final attempt of self-control and regard for others.

Harry gets the silent treatment because Severus cannot walk out of the classroom, just like he cannot walk out of his own office when he finds Harry. Walking out in either case is not logical nor should he have to, given the cause of the problem was Harry's disregard for his privacy. Since Severus cannot walk out, he removes the other person in order to dismantle the ticking bomb of anger. Harry is physically removed from the office and mentally removed from the classroom via the silent treatment. As subtle science noted once or twice, Harry misunderstands the meaning of silent treatment from Severus because this is how he was normally treated by Vernon - bursts of yelling followed by the silent treatment. This may be the standard operating procedure by the Dursleys, but it is an anomaly for Severus and therefore Harry is mis-reading the signals. Normally Severus is constantly moving around the classroom - regardless of how well or poorly everyone is doing, talking, criticizing and inspecting the cauldrons. In this lesson, he stays at his desk and does not acknowledge Harry until the end. Severus is not Vernon and this behavior should be an extreme warning sign to Harry.

Doesn't the thought of Snape using Legilimency on Harry, (for whatever the reason) give you the shivers. Your thoughts are your own, the ultimate privacy and IMO should not be violated. Nobody has the right to rifle through your mind, I don't know, I just find it very offensive. In my opinion, Legilimency should be forbidden. I know that using it would be very handy, but despite it being around Sirius still went to prison for something he didn't do. It just seems to be the worst kind of intrusion and it doesn't even seem to be that accurate.

Doesn't the thought of Snape using Legilimency on Harry, (for whatever the reason) give you the shivers. Your thoughts are your own, the ultimate privacy and IMO should not be violated. Nobody has the right to rifle through your mind, I don't know, I just find it very offensive. In my opinion, Legilimency should be forbidden. I know that using it would be very handy, but despite it being around Sirius still went to prison for something he didn't do. It just seems to be the worst kind of intrusion and it doesn't even seem to be that accurate.

I think the use of Legilimency gives me the shivers too. Thoughts are our own and for another person to read them is almost a violation IMO.

Snape, if he had peeped into Harry's mind just because or without reason, I think it's wrong.

But when he peeps into a mind with a specific purpose and for a specific reason, I think its not wrong. Snape had a specific job in the School. He was working for 2 masters. For Voldemort, he was supposedly trying to gather information about Dumbledore (this was before Voldemort resurrected).

For Dumbledore, Snape's role inside the School was more complicated than just waiting for Voldemort to arrive. He was the spy for Dumbledore on the DEs roaming free (like Lucius Malfoy, Rookwood, Avery and others), he was the spy on the Slytherin students themselves especially DE kids, and he was also entrusted with Harry's protection (DH - TPT).

To do those jobs, I presume Snape peeped whenever necessary into others minds, like this instance, into Harry's (assuming he did that is).

Harry had gone into Hogsmeade and Snape is saying the truth, when he says that the whole WW from Fudge were striving to protect Harry from Sirius, while Harry himself uncaring of the threat.

To see what Harry was up to; to see or check if Harry was plotting something dangerous, legilimency would reveal the truth to Snape and also help him protect Harry. I think it's the same with the Slytherins. If they were plotting something, like Draco in the HBP, it would be Snape's job to uncover it and take steps to prevent any harm to other students IMO.

To this extent Snape was not wrong, and I think if he used Legilimency, it was only like this. Like wanting to know from where Harry learnt the curse in HBP that almost killed Draco, for example. I think Snape was well within his limits to use it under these circumstances, because that was his job.

Doesn't the thought of Snape using Legilimency on Harry, (for whatever the reason) give you the shivers.

For whatever the reason – No. Frankly there are times it doesn’t have that effect on me. perhaps its because there are times when it is warranted imo. The prime example being when Harry was being held in Professor Umbridge’s office; he practically begged Professor Snape to use Legilimency on him and a good job too he did, or Hogwarts would have lost several students that night.

Its worth remembering imo that Severus is not the only teacher one who is known to have an ability at Legilimency. I think there are similar hints that Dumbledore is actively using it at times (those eyes that can pierce your soul) but this doesn’t seem to attract much discussion.

I would agree however that under normal circumstances Legilimency shouldn’t be used on anyone – however in the passage in question at the moment I can see good reasons for its use – there is a mass murderer on the lose who is targeting Harry. I think Severus will do what ever it takes to protect Harry – especially from the person he believes is partly responsible for the death of Harry’s mother.

However do I think he used it in the text Cathy posted?

On reflection I don’t think so, mainly because I don’t think he needed to. Harry’s answers would have set off any teacher/parent’s internal lie detector imo and I certainly think Severus can handle reading the body language etc of a panicky 13 year old.

Hmmm...interesting, I guess I never really imagined that Snape used Legilimency on a regular basis, even in his guarding Harry duties. I think that, most times, as in the example above or when Harry threw the firecracker in class in CoS, it appeared to me that he was just being perceptive, observant and (understandably) paranoid. I came away feeling like he only actually looked at Harry's thoughts in emergency situations. However, if he was using it all the time it seems like there are some gaps in things he knows and doesn't know. I think I need to go back and read some of those scenes again....

I agree with Kittling that Snape is not always using Legillimency because he doesn't need it. We know from Book One that Snape is great with logic, and as a teacher he knows when a child is lying anyway.

Dumbledore also knows when Harry is lying, as in HBP when Harry tells him that nothing is bothering him right before he goes ballistic over Snape and the Prophecy. Harry's not that hard to read and understand. Dumbledore can almost read his mind as well.

Right after Sectumsempra, Snape uses Legillimency because Draco has almost died and he wants to know how Harry learned the spell. I think in that case it's more than warranted since Harry is lying about everything.

I don't think Snape used Legilimency on a regular basis. Only when it was needed; Snape was also like you mentioned perceptive and very observant. I think the circumstance decided whether Snape or indeed Dumbledore would need to peep into another mind or not.

I think that what you are saying is true, but (correct me if I'm wrong) is'nt that backing up what I said. An observant and intelligent person doesn't need Legilimency, and even if they are good, it cant really be used as proof. It's an interesting concept in a story, but it's one that still gives me the shivers. Thanks for the e-mails everyone, I'm starting to feel a bit better.

I think that what you are saying is true, but (correct me if I'm wrong) is'nt that backing up what I said. An observant and intelligent person doesn't need Legilimency, and even if they are good, it cant really be used as proof. It's an interesting concept in a story, but it's one that still gives me the shivers. Thanks for the e-mails everyone, I'm starting to feel a bit better.

An observant person can put together theories generally; but for specifics I think that would not suffice. There is a chance of mistakes through wrong reading of expression, of if the other person is able to hide their emotions well IMO.

For example, Snape knew/suspected Harry was in Hogsmeade and probed him about it. But assume, if Snape had a suspicion that Black was trying to lure Harry out, giving a reason that Harry would think it valid, then Snape would not know what the reason was, that unless he employed Legilimency.

In the sectumsempra incident, Snape knew Harry had cast a dark curse. But he did not know how Harry accessed information about that curse. Since it almost killed Malfoy, it was important Snape knew everything about how, where and when Harry learnt about that curse. He peeped into Harry's mind and found out that it was because of the HBP Book IMO.

An observant person can put together theories generally; but for specifics I think that would not suffice. There is a chance of mistakes through wrong reading of expression, of if the other person is able to hide their emotions well IMO.

For example, Snape knew/suspected Harry was in Hogsmeade and probed him about it. But assume, if Snape had a suspicion that Black was trying to lure Harry out, giving a reason that Harry would think it valid, then Snape would not know what the reason was, that unless he employed Legilimency.

In the sectumsempra incident, Snape knew Harry had cast a dark curse. But he did not know how Harry accessed information about that curse. Since it almost killed Malfoy, it was important Snape knew everything about how, where and when Harry learnt about that curse. He peeped into Harry's mind and found out that it was because of the HBP Book IMO.

I don't think Snape had to read Harry's mind to know he used the book; Snape had created the spell and had only ever written it in one book - so in hindsight, I feel he knew Harry was lying right off the bat and that he had somehow gotten ahold of his old book, imo. As Eliza mentioned, if he had used Occlumency, it would have done no good, he was never ever to obtain the evidence of the actual book because Harry destroyed it.

In the other scenario, I don't think Snape believed that Harry had actually seen Black - just that he'd snuck into Hogsmeade, imo because at that point, Harry hated Black and wanted to kill him for murdering his parents (POA). So I don't think Snape would feel a need to wonder about Black being on the premises.

It is possible that Snape used Occlumency though, but if he did, I feel it would have been entirely wrongful to do when there was no life and death situation at hand because I feel invasion of one's mind for the mere purpose of giving detention would be a misuse of the spell and a morally wrongful violation (imo). But based on the canon, I didn't feel he was using it; I think Harry would have known in HBP, having had it done to him previously and he didn't mention it in his POV (HBP Sectumsempra). However, I do see that the stare down could be interpreted that way and if that is what was implied then I think Snape behaved wrongfully.

I don't think Snape had to read Harry's mind to know he used the book; Snape had created the spell and had only ever written it in one book - so in hindsight, I feel he knew Harry was lying right off the bat and that he had somehow gotten ahold of his old book, imo. As Eliza mentioned, if he had used Occlumency, it would have done no good, he was never ever to obtain the evidence of the actual book because Harry destroyed it.

I disagree. Snape would have no reason to think Harry would have his book. Harry does not borrow old books from School. I think he wanted to know how Harry got hold the spell, but seeing his book, he asked Harry to bring it at once to him.

In the other scenario, I don't think Snape believed that Harry had actually seen Black - just that he'd snuck into Hogsmeade, imo because at that point, Harry hated Black and wanted to kill him for murdering his parents (POA). So I don't think Snape would feel a need to wonder about Black being on the premises.

That was an example, of why Snape would need to use legilimency. It is not clear whether he used it in that scene or not. I think he did, for he would not have known about the Map, but it is equally possible, that he wanted to confiscate whatever Harry bought in Hogsmeade and he struck gold with the Map.

I disagree. Snape would have no reason to think Harry would have his book. Harry does not borrow old books from School. I think he wanted to know how Harry got hold the spell, but seeing his book, he asked Harry to bring it at once to him.

To me it is clear from the text that Snape used Legilimency in this particular case.

He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it...The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swamhazily to the front of his mind...
And then he was staring at Snape again, in the midst of this wrecked, soaked bathroom. he stared into Snape's black eyes hoping against hope that Snape had not seenwhat he feared, but -
'Bring me your schoolbag,' said Snape softly, 'and all of your school books. All of them. Bring them down here. Now!'

To me it is clear from the text that Snape used Legilimency in this particular case.

He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it...The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swamhazily to the front of his mind...
And then he was staring at Snape again, in the midst of this wrecked, soaked bathroom. he stared into Snape's black eyes hoping against hope that Snape had not seenwhat he feared, but -
'Bring me your schoolbag,' said Snape softly, 'and all of your school books. All of them. Bring them down here. Now!'

:agree: Thanks for the quote TT. :)

I think Snape needed to use legilimency in that scene, because until then he would have had no clue why Harry was using a curse, he should not have even known existed. When he employed legilimency, he came to know that Harry had his Book and asked for it.

Thanks for posting the field guide SIP!

As for using legilimency - well when Voldemort does it it gives me the shivers because he seems so ruthless about it, but Dumbledore and Severus don't give me the creeps when they do it. While it is an invasion of privacy I think if someone has committed a crime or misdemeanour then it is justified - just as searching their home or going through their possesions is in the muggle world. I think the reason that it is not used by the Ministry to aid law enforcement is because it is so fallible and depends on the interpretation of what you see as much as anything. If Snape and Dumbeldore do at times take a peek in students heads I think it might just be to see the strongest emotion they are experiencing at that time so it would be more of a quick glance than a thorough rifling through. However as others have said most of the time I don't think it is necessary. We do have the evidence however that Snape does use legilimency on students who have misbehaved because this is what he does in the sectumsempra incident.

The Field Guide to Severus Snape is awesome. :lol:

As for using legilimency - well when Voldemort does it it gives me the shivers because he seems so ruthless about it, but Dumbledore and Severus don't give me the creeps when they do it. While it is an invasion of privacy I think if someone has committed a crime or misdemeanour then it is justified - just as searching their home or going through their possesions is in the muggle world.

I agree. I don't envisage either Snape or Dumbledore marching about using Legilimency willy-nilly. :cool: If they used it, there was a good reason for doing so. For example, I don't judge Snape for practicising Legilimency on Harry after the Sectumsempra incident.

(I am a little freaked out by Hermione altering her parents' memories :whistle:, although I appreciate her reasons, but that is for her thread. :) I mention it only because there are not a few freaky things about the Wizarding World. ;) )

I think the reason that it is not used by the Ministry to aid law enforcement is because it is so fallible and depends on the interpretation of what you see as much as anything.

I didn't realise that, or else had forgotten. That's a relief! It's not often I feel like congratulating the Wizarding World on its medieval approach to law enforcement :rolleyes: but I am relieved to know that Ministry staff would not employ Legilimency for the reasons you state.

By the way, I had a revelation today (it happens sometimes). It is an astoundingly obvious revelation :rolleyes: and no doubt has been posted before, but ... never mind, here it is anyway:

-- Harry, wild with rage and grief, shouts at Snape at the end of HBP, "Fight back, you coward" and Snape, equally wild with rage and grief (indeed, looking like a man suffering the torments of hell), yells back, "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!"

-- At the end of DH, Harry calls Snape 'probably the bravest man he ever knew'.

A neat authorial reversal. :tu:

There's another scene where Snape is apparently using Legilimency on a student: Draco Malfoy. When Harry overhears them outside Slughorn's party:

"I hope you are telling the truth, because it was both clumsy and foolish. Already you are suspected of having a hand in it."

"Who suspects me?" said Malfoy angrily. "For the last time, I didn't do it, okay? That Bell girl must've had an enemy no one knows about----don't look at me like that! I know what you're doing, I'm not stupid, but it won't work---I can stop you!"

There was a pause and then Snape said quietly, "Ah....Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you Occlumency, I see. What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, Draco?"

"I'm not trying to conceal anything from him. I just don't want you butting in!"

It seems like Snape is willing to use Legilimency when a student is lying (really badly, in this case)...however, it also seems like the person on the receiving end is aware of what is happening?

In this scene, I think Snape is using legilimency because he knows Draco's job and I think he wants to know why Draco gate crashed the party and if Draco was plotting something.

Yes, I felt he was trying to protect the school from any more of Draco's 'Katie Bell' type incidents (while also protecting Draco himself)...but Draco seemed aware of the fact that Snape used Legilimency (and what it looked like when he did it) which, I suppose, Draco either knew from past experience or from his aunt.

Snape says so. He comments on the fact Draco was using Occlumency against his probe and he wondered if Bellatrix had taught him.

Oh yes, it just seemed that Snape thought that Bellatrix had taught Draco Occlumency to protect himself from Voldemort...but Draco is using it against Snape. So I wasn't sure if that meant Snape had used Legilimency on Draco in the past (and so Draco was prepared for him to do it again), or whether Draco, having learned from his aunt, just knew what it felt like to have his mind penetrated and defended himself.

Thanks for posting the Field Guide, SIP, it's absolutely brilliant! :tu: :D

To me it is clear from the text that Snape used Legilimency in this particular case.

He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it...The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swamhazily to the front of his mind...
And then he was staring at Snape again, in the midst of this wrecked, soaked bathroom. he stared into Snape's black eyes hoping against hope that Snape had not seenwhat he feared, but -
'Bring me your schoolbag,' said Snape softly, 'and all of your school books. All of them. Bring them down here. Now!'

Thanks. I went back and read the whole scene, I hadn't recalled how that was written. I agree he was using legilimency - twice during that scene. I think Snape behaved wrongfully in using it in this instance because I feel it was unnecessary. It seems every time I give Snape the benefit of the doubt, he proves me wrong in canon. I didn't think at this juncture he would use it on students in situations such as this, but I was mistaken.

I think it would be distinct if it was necessary to prove that Harry had used dark magic and nearly killed Draco so that Harry could be prosecuted. However, since that was not the motivation here, I feel Snape behaved improperly in invading Harry's mind and violating his right to privacy for what I feel were personal reasons alone. In the aftermath, I feel Snape marvelled at Harry's use of dark magic, then called him a liar and a cheat - none of which addressed the terrible deed he had done to Draco, in my judgment, which according to Harry's truthful statement, was to use a spell sight unseen, marked 'for enemies' against his own enemy which would have killed the lad without Snape's intervention, imo (or in the alternative, take the spell from another source and knowingly attempt to kill his enemy through the use of dark magic, imo).

On the other hand, I feel it was proper for Snape to use it against Draco because in that instance, I feel Snape was addressing a life and death matter, with a motive to protect innocents from death and Draco from destroying his soul.

Mr. Malfoy then saw an extraordinary apparition. Can you imagine what it might have been, Potter?"

"No," said Harry, now trying to sound innocently curious.

"It was your head, Potter. Floating in midair."

There was a long silence.


Quick Note about the scene-
If we go with the idea that Snape might have been using legilimency- this is a good example of Snape getting Harry to think about the issues that he's trying to get at. He is asking Harry to "imagine" the scene- to see what comes up in Harry's mind.

ETA BUT ... this is basically a good method for fishing out lies from anyone, so I would have to agree with those who said Snape didn't need it here. For adults, most Kids are easy to read at least to the point that they know someone is lying or evading the truth by their reactions alone.

Here- if Harry had not been in Hogsmead he would have obviously reacted to the statement of someone seeing of his head in mid air, but Harry does nothing.

Quick Note about the scene-
If we go with the idea that Snape might have been using legilimency- this is a good example of Snape getting Harry to think about the issues that he's trying to get at. He is asking Harry to "imagine" the scene- to see what comes up in Harry's mind.

ETA BUT ... this is basically a good method for fishing out lies from anyone, so I would have to agree with those who said Snape didn't need it here. For adults, most Kids are easy to read at least to the point that they know someone is lying or evading the truth by their reactions alone.

Here- if Harry had not been in Hogsmead he would have obviously reacted to the statement of someone seeing of his head in mid air, but Harry does nothing.

Great point - I never thought of that before! But it's like on these police shows when they get suspicious when someone fails to react to something. So Snape is reading Harry's emotions there in the regular way. :agree:

Great post Bscorp!

Yeah kids are easy to read - I remember as a kid thnking I was so clever with the excuses I made for not finishing my homework on time (if at all) until one teacher asked me what excuse I was going to give. It had never occurred to me that the teachers didn't believe me! :lol: :blush: And now as a parent I am fully aware of the lines that my kids try to spin me about homework. One of my sons is a very good liar though and has more front than Brighton!

Great post Bscorp!

Yeah kids are easy to read - I remember as a kid thnking I was so clever with the excuses I made for not finishing my homework on time (if at all) until one teacher asked me what excuse I was going to give. It had never occurred to me that the teachers didn't believe me! :lol: :blush: And now as a parent I am fully aware of the lines that my kids try to spin me about homework. One of my sons is a very good liar though and has more front than Brighton!

My older son is not a good liar, meaning that he always gives himself away by smiling too much and trying to look innocent. :lol: At least Harry usually keeps a straight face. I just think of that scene about Hogsmeade as an archetypal teacher-student lying scene.

I just think of that scene about Hogsmeade as an archetypal teacher-student lying scene.Me too! It's one of those examples of a scene in the books which the adult readers and the child readers will see rather differently, but both can enjoy. Children can easily label Snape as the "nasty teacher" but when you have kids yourself (or are a teacher) I think you can identify with Snape in this scene.

Me too! It's one of those examples of a scene in the books which the adult readers and the child readers will see rather differently, but both can enjoy. Children can easily label Snape as the "nasty teacher" but when you have kids yourself (or are a teacher) I think you can identify with Snape in this scene.

I would respectfully disagree. I strongly feel that in that scene, Snape portrayed the way a professor should never behave with a student. I feel that the large-scale intent, reprimending a student for wrongdoing is fine, but I feel that Snape's behavior was above and beyond what I feel are the norms associated with the reasonable expectation of professorial behavior (imo). When reading this scene, by the time Harry told Snape to "Shut Up!" (POA), I was 100% behind him as a student - and that would not be the case if I felt Snape had not abused his power of position as a professor, based on my judgment.

Thanks. I went back and read the whole scene, I hadn't recalled how that was written. I agree he was using legilimency - twice during that scene. I think Snape behaved wrongfully in using it in this instance because I feel it was unnecessary. It seems every time I give Snape the benefit of the doubt, he proves me wrong in canon. I didn't think at this juncture he would use it on students in situations such as this, but I was mistaken.

I think it would be distinct if it was necessary to prove that Harry had used dark magic and nearly killed Draco so that Harry could be prosecuted. However, since that was not the motivation here, I feel Snape behaved improperly in invading Harry's mind and violating his right to privacy for what I feel were personal reasons alone. In the aftermath, I feel Snape marvelled at Harry's use of dark magic, then called him a liar and a cheat - none of which addressed the terrible deed he had done to Draco, in my judgment, which according to Harry's truthful statement, was to use a spell sight unseen, marked 'for enemies' against his own enemy which would have killed the lad without Snape's intervention, imo (or in the alternative, take the spell from another source and knowingly attempt to kill his enemy through the use of dark magic, imo).

On the other hand, I feel it was proper for Snape to use it against Draco because in that instance, I feel Snape was addressing a life and death matter, with a motive to protect innocents from death and Draco from destroying his soul.

I'm confused...maybe I've missed something (well I'm sure I have), but how do we know that Snape already knows 100% for sure where Harry got the spell? I guess I break down his motivations into 2 parts here: First, why did Snape use Legilimency in this situation? Second, why did he respond the way he did when he found out about the book? I think he had different motivations for each action.

As to why he used Legilimency, I took it that Snape suspected that Harry had his book, but did not know for sure. (And honestly, I don't know how he lost it in the first place.) So unless he somehow got Slughorn to give Harry the book (maybe this is what I'm not clear about), it seems that Snape might think that Harry picked the curse up from somewhere else. If it was a curse that Snape used as a DE and it had become Dark Magic lore, then it might be reasonable for him to be worried that Harry was possessed by Voldemort (again), that Harry had possessed Voldemort and seen something dark (again), or perhaps that Harry had accessed someone's memories (again) and found the curse. The book seems like the most benign of all those options, which to me seems like the reason that Snape doesn't really pursue it...he knows harry has hid it and won't use it again. After clearing that up, Snape then chooses to react to Harry in his normal fashion; part teacher punishing a student for a terrible action/part person who hates Harry and thinks the worst of him/part person who has to protect harry and can't expel him.

Anyway, that was how I sized up Snape's actions and felt that his use of Legilimency was warranted, considering how dangerous the situation was, although I was confused by why he didn't say more about the book.

Anyway, that was how I sized up Snape's actions and felt that his use of Legilimency was warranted, considering how dangerous the situation was, although I was confused by why he didn't say more about the book.

I agree.

Snape's use of Legilimency is completely justified, given that Harry has just nearly killed Draco.

I'm confused...maybe I've missed something (well I'm sure I have), but how do we know that Snape already knows 100% for sure where Harry got the spell? I guess I break down his motivations into 2 parts here: First, why did Snape use Legilimency in this situation? Second, why did he respond the way he did when he found out about the book? I think he had different motivations for each action.

As to why he used Legilimency, I took it that Snape suspected that Harry had his book, but did not know for sure. (And honestly, I don't know how he lost it in the first place.) So unless he somehow got Slughorn to give Harry the book (maybe this is what I'm not clear about), it seems that Snape might think that Harry picked the curse up from somewhere else. If it was a curse that Snape used as a DE and it had become Dark Magic lore, then it might be reasonable for him to be worried that Harry was possessed by Voldemort (again), that Harry had possessed Voldemort and seen something dark (again), or perhaps that Harry had accessed someone's memories (again) and found the curse. The book seems like the most benign of all those options, which to me seems like the reason that Snape doesn't really pursue it...he knows harry has hid it and won't use it again. After clearing that up, Snape then chooses to react to Harry in his normal fashion; part teacher punishing a student for a terrible action/part person who hates Harry and thinks the worst of him/part person who has to protect harry and can't expel him.

Anyway, that was how I sized up Snape's actions and felt that his use of Legilimency was warranted, considering how dangerous the situation was, although I was confused by why he didn't say more about the book.

Well in analysing the scene, I don't really understand why Snape would have the above suspicions. Voldemort can't possess Harry on Hogwarts grounds, iirc; If Harry saw the curse being used by Voldy via possession of Voldemort, why would he use it on Draco?; and if Harry saw the curse being used in someone's mind, again, why would he use it?

I ask because Harry told Snape that he read it in a book and didn't know what it's function was - to which Snape responded he hadn't imagined Harry would use such dark magic (HBP). Do you mean that you feel Snape thought Harry was going dark, having seen the curse in use and decided to use it? Why would Snape believe that? I mean, what basis in canon would Snape have for beliving that? Especially in light of Harry's response to what he had done when Snape arrived and found him trying to hold the blood inside of Draco and his subsequent statement of lack of knowledge about what the spell did. (HBP) I don't really understand your question I guess, could you clarify?

Snape's use of Legilimency is completely justified, given that Harry has just nearly killed Draco.

Well as I indicated in my post, I would agree if Snape were using the legitimacy for an appropriate purpose - but I felt he was not. He called Harry a liar and a cheat, neither of which would cause him to kill Draco, imo. And Snape's statement about using dark magic came across as if he were marveling at Harry's use of it - in a good way, imo, rather than chastising him for it; but in any case, there was no stricture, just the marveling, imo. (HBP). So I don't understand why Snape needed to violate Harry's mind in that instance - Snape did not address Harry's actual deed or stricture him about that at all, imo. I mean a stricture against hex wars, against using spells of that nature against another person or spells sight unseen against another person. Since he raised none of these issues, I do not see what Snape gained by his exercise in discovering it was the book that Harry found the curse in, other than to determine that Harry was using his book (cheating in class - knowledge kept to himself in the canon iirc) and his dark spell from that book (which he seemed to marvel about to me) - see what I mean?

Thanks for posting the field guide, SIP! :tu:

I just think of that scene about Hogsmeade as an archetypal teacher-student lying scene.

:rotfl: Pretty much.

What I really like about that scene is not only how Snape knows full well that Harry is lying, but also the different reactions children and their parents might have to it. I was a little younger than Harry's age when I first read the scene, and from that perspective could understand and sympathize with his situation more than I could Snape's. As a young adult, however, I come to understand and relate more and more what Snape himself is going through here as well. I think JKR did a great job reflecting both child and adult POVs there. :D

Well in analysing the scene, I don't really understand why Snape would have the above suspicions. Voldemort can't possess Harry on Hogwarts grounds, iirc; If Harry saw the curse being used by Voldy via possession of Voldemort, why would he use it on Draco?; and if Harry saw the curse being used in someone's mind, again, why would he use it?

I ask because Harry told Snape that he read it in a book and didn't know what it's function was - to which Snape responded he hadn't imagined Harry would use such dark magic (HBP). Do you mean that you feel Snape thought Harry was going dark, having seen the curse in use and decided to use it? Why would Snape believe that? I mean, what basis in canon would Snape have for beliving that? Especially in light of Harry's response to what he had done when Snape arrived and found him trying to hold the blood inside of Draco and his subsequent statement of lack of knowledge about what the spell did. (HBP) I don't really understand your question I guess, could you clarify?


Sorry...I just meant in a general sense, how could Snape know absolutely for sure that Harry had gotten the curse from Snape's own book (without Legilimency)? Snape knew that Harry suspected Draco of something, and then they had this bloody encounter. A different student had already been under the Imperius Curse. Voldemort had sent Harry visions the year before. Maybe Snape thought Harry was somehow trying to protect DD or the other students from Draco. Who knows? Harry actually had absolutely no good reason for using the curse, which is not a very believable defense! :lol: My basic point was that, given Harry and Draco's history and all that was going on, it seems understandable that Snape was genuinely alarmed by the fact that Harry had used a dark curse and almost killed someone.

Regardless of the exact details, I feel like Snape's first priority was to figure out the circumstances under which Harry came know about the curse; but not so he could punish Harry, but so that he could understand what had happened and if anything more sinister was going on. Once that issue was resolved, he went back into his normal Harry mode.

I also guess I don't understand why he would use Legilimency if there was no doubt in his mind that the book was the source. Why would he need to do that?

My basic point was that, given Harry and Draco's history and all that was going on, it seems understandable that Snape was genuinely alarmed by the fact that Harry had used a dark curse and almost killed someone.

I understand what you meant now. :) I guess we'd have to agree to disagree on that point.

I also guess I don't understand why he would use Legilimency if there was no doubt in his mind that the book was the source. Why would he need to do that?

Habit, imo. I didn't believe Snape would do this at first, but the canon refresher Treacle provided proved that he would, imo. That actually gives me a good deal of enlightenment relative to other scenes now because I had put alot of Snape's behavior down to his experience with kids, but now I feel he was misusing legilimency instead. The references to his looking students in the eye on various occassions now takes on a different meaning for me.

Voldemort can't possess Harry on Hogwarts grounds, iirc;

Yes he can. And did so at the end of OotP during Harry's History of Magic exam.

Regardless of the exact details, I feel like Snape's first priority was to figure out the circumstances under which Harry came know about the curse; but not so he could punish Harry, but so that he could understand what had happened and if anything more sinister was going on. Once that issue was resolved, he went back into his normal Harry mode.

I think Snape had good reason to suspect something more sinister could have been behind Harry's use of Sectumsempra.Remember, Snape is by this time aware that Harry is host to part of Voldemort's soul. Dumbledore had told Snape that this connection was parasitic and that it was growing stonger, so I think it is possible Snape may have suspected this to be behind Harry's use of a dark curse.

Regardless of the exact details, I feel like Snape's first priority was to figure out the circumstances under which Harry came know about the curse; but not so he could punish Harry, but so that he could understand what had happened and if anything more sinister was going on. Once that issue was resolved, he went back into his normal Harry mode.

I think Snape had good reason to suspect something more sinister could have been behind Harry's use of Sectumsempra.Remember, Snape is by this time aware that Harry is host to part of Voldemort's soul. Dumbledore had told Snape that this connection was parasitic and that it was growing stonger, so I think it is possible Snape may have suspected this to be behind Harry's use of a dark curse.


Excellent points! :tu: I had never considered that Snape might be anxious that something more sinister was happening.

Me too. :agree: But it definitely makes sense. Snape is now more aware than ever that the school is being threatened. If Voldemort could use Harry to infiltrate the school, then an all-out battle far worse than the one in HBP could have been waged. This would also give Voldemort the added bonus of seeing Draco fail, declaring all the Malfoys useless, and offing them...which would not only be extremely distasteful to Snape, but, considering the UV, fatal.

Sorry...I just meant in a general sense, how could Snape know absolutely for sure that Harry had gotten the curse from Snape's own book (without Legilimency)?

He would have never known unless Harry told him IMO. He might have guessed if Slughorn had mentioned that he gave Harry and Ron books from the School cupboard, which they returned later, which I don't see Slughorn doing, because he would have no reason to tell Snape about old books.

Regardless of the exact details, I feel like Snape's first priority was to figure out the circumstances under which Harry came know about the curse; but not so he could punish Harry, but so that he could understand what had happened and if anything more sinister was going on. Once that issue was resolved, he went back into his normal Harry mode.

:agree:

I also guess I don't understand why he would use Legilimency if there was no doubt in his mind that the book was the source. Why would he need to do that?

He would not IMO. Seeing into another mind, is as painful for the person who sees and witnesses other's memories just as it is painful for the person to share personal memories IMO.

Unless one is like Voldemort who feels no emotion for others fears, instead revels in them, triumphant to create such fear, I think others generally would not like to peep into other minds, except for very good reasons.

For Snape it would be an extra nuisance, because this will be yet another thought he has to hide from Voldemort, which means he has make more effort to strengthen his Occlumency.

Snape is already hiding so much from Voldemort and the more he picks up from everyone makes it more difficult for him, because of his reactions, which give away his loyalties and make it so much more of a burden, because this is yet another thought he has to be careful about IMO.

Yes he can. And did so at the end of OotP during Harry's History of Magic exam.

Well I meant full body possession. :lol:. But this was the point I was making earlier. If Snape felt that Voldemort was somehow controling Harry and making him do things, then finding out the source of Harry's learning the curse doesn't really answer that question, imo. If Voldemort could incite Harry to enough anger to act against Draco using a dark curse or even an action (like pushing him off a cliff), then it doesn't really matter where he learned the curse or how to push, what matters is whether or not Voldemort had entered his mind at the time of the incident, imo. That was what I was saying - Snape didn't ask about that or anything along those lines to make Harry's incident with sharing thoughts with Voldemort come into his mind, imo, that is what he should have wanted to swim into Harry's mind - not where he learned the curse, imo.

Snape knowing that Harry had found the curse in the HBP book didn't tell him whether or not Voldemort was behind Harry actually using it or not, imo. The only way that would possibly work was if Voldemort had given Harry the curse in his head - but that is just one of many ways Harry could have learned it and it wasn't the way, Snape found that out...then he stopped probing, and to me that says his goal wasn't connected with discovering whether or not Voldemort was behind it. The simple question "what made you use that curse?" would have done the trick, imo. So I don't feel that was Snape's goal. Hence, I think his goal was only to determine that Harry had somehow encountered his old potions book - and to me, using legilimency for that purpose is a blatant misuse of the art in violation of another's right to privacy and invading their mind against their will. That would be akin to feeding kids veritaserum, truth potion, just to determine the truth of a non life and death matter, imo.

I had never considered that Snape might be anxious that something more sinister was happening.
Interestingly, Snape doesn't ask Harry where he learnt the spell, but from whom he learnt it.

'Apparently, I underestimated you, Potter,' he said quietly. 'Who would have thought you knew such Dark magic? 'Who taught you that spell?'

So, Snape is obviously not thinking at first about his old potions book. He thinks someone has told him about the spell.

Interestingly, Snape doesn't ask Harry where he learnt the spell, but from whom he learnt it.

'Apparently, I underestimated you, Potter,' he said quietly. 'Who would have thought you knew such Dark magic? 'Who taught you that spell?'

So, Snape is obviously not thinking at first about his old potions book. He thinks someone has told him about the spell.
I do not think that is a definitive conclusion. Snape's could have asked "Who taught you that spell?" thinking that Harry's answer would be The Half-Blood Prince - a person, not a book. As I read it, Snape assumed Harry learned the spell from his old copy of Advanced Potion-making, but he did not ask Harry "where" he learned the spell because "who" would have resulted in a more definitive conclusion ("Where," could be answered by "a book," whereas "Who" could only be answered with "The Half-Blood Prince"). He did not call Harry a "liar" after Harry said he had read about the spell somewhere:
"Apparently I underestimated you, Potter," he said quietly. "Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic? Who taught you that spell?"
"I - read about it somewhere."
"Where?"
"It was - a library book," Harry invented wildly. "I can't remember what it was call -"
"Liar," said Snape.
I read this scene as Snape searching for proof that Harry was, indeed, using the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-making. Snape likely suspected this "with Slughorn talking about how brilliant [Harry] was at Potions," but he had no definitive evidence until Harry used Sectumsempra. Snape examined Harry's borrowed copy of Advanced Potion-Making last and "very carefully," so I do not think Snape suspected anything more "sinister" from Harry's use of Sectumsempra (such as possession by Voldemort) - he merely suspected Harry of "stealing" from the Half-Blood Prince.

He would not IMO. Seeing into another mind, is as painful for the person who sees and witnesses other's memories just as it is painful for the person to share personal memories IMO.


I disagree, I think Snape never really respected Harry's mental privacy, before Legilimency was introduced, I think JKR, used different ways to show it, for instance by Harry's suspicions that Snape could see through his mind in PS, if Snape really cared for Harry emotionally,imo, he wouldnt have humilated him on his first potions class ever, he wouldnt have read silly articles loudly about him in front of the whole class, also he wouldnt have recalled horrible memories from Harry's mind during his Occlumency lessons, and he could've appreciated his efforts a bit more at Potions.
In TPT, Snape promised Dumbledore to help him protect Harry yet he begged him not to mention it to anyone because he couldnt bear the idea of 'Potter's son' , I think Snape kept that promise very well, he kept Harry safe and helped him defeat Voldemort for Lily's sake, but other than that he was the obnoxious Potter boy, the son of his enemy, imo.

I've been reading Spinner's End, and I was wondering why Snape never thought of killing Wormtail, when he found out that he was the one who had really betrayed the Potters, I remember that he was so glad to be the one who captured Black in PoA and was fully ready to hand him to the dementors, if he had been so keen on avenging Lily, why didnt he just kill him, from what is said in HBP, Snape and Wormtail were left alone for a long time, as the latter was placed to assist Snape, I dont think Voldemort would've cared much if he had died, he was a useless Death Eater, what could've possibly prevented Snape from doing it?. :think:

I've been reading Spinner's End, and I was wondering why Snape never thought of killing Wormtail, when he found out that he was the one who had really betrayed the Potters, I remember that he was so glad to be the one who captured Black in PoA and was fully ready to hand him to the dementors, if he had been so keen on avenging Lily, why didnt he just kill him, from what is said in HBP, Snape and Wormtail were left alone for a long time, as the latter was placed to assist Snape, I dont think Voldemort would've cared much if he had died, he was a useless Death Eater, what could've possibly prevented Snape from doing it?. :think:
When Snape failed to show in the graveyard at the end of GoF Voldemort considered him to be one who had left him forever, so he was extremely doubtful of Snape loyalty when he did return. How ever like Wormtail Severus could be useful to him so he let him continue to spy for him (as he thought) at Hogwarts. Voldemort also knew of Snape's partiality for Lily, so if Severus had killed Wormtail he Voldemort would have most certainly put 2 and 2 together and realised where Snape's loyalty lay. I also think that Voldemort would not take kindly to one of his Death Eaters being killed without his say so.
I also suspect that Voldemort sent Wormtail to "assist" Severus partly because it amused him in his twisted way because there was no love lost between Severus and Wormtail, but mainly because he wasn't toally convinced of Snape's loyalty. If we look at it from Voldemort's point of view and keep in mind that he doesn't trust anyone, he believes Snape has left him so when Severus does return he must surely believe that like Wormtail he has returned out of fear rather than loyalty. Voldemort knows that Snape knows he willl be a marked man if he does not return, and given his lack of trust in anyone it wouldn't be surprising if he was extremely doubtful of Snape's loyalty to him for all the reasons that Bella cites at Spinner's End. It is little more than a year after Voldemort's return that we see that Wormtail at Spinner's End. IMO Voldemort is still deeply suspicious of Severus which is why he wants Severus to be the one to kill Dumbledore because this would be an indication to Voldemort that Severus was not loyal to him.

I hope that makes sense I'm rather tired!

THIS POST IS COMPLETELY MY OWN OPINION. READ/IGNORE AS YOU WILL.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
Umm, I don't think so. I think that all that he's done is justified in his eyes.

What do you think would Snape say about Albus Severus?
Gag. Same thing I did. Even though I'm sure Snape would think that he deserved an honor like a namesake. (Which he doesn't).

Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?
Umm, how about make him NICER? I know, it's supposed to be that you hate him, (and I kinda do), but no amount of "He's just lonely and heartsick!" can take away all the hurt he caused others. (i.e., abusing his position as a teacher to torture Neville).

What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?
Gone on being his same, vindictive self.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews? I don't know. I haven't read any interviews that were really memorable.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
He was never ON the good side. And no, I don't think he would've moved on, because he's kind of like a girl in that he holds grudges.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.
Snape respected Dumbly. Which is why he carried out his orders. His treatment of Sirius always has been despicable. Lupin said that Sirius never hesitated to RETALIATE. As in, Snape acted first. And goading an innocent man who couldn't go out of his hated childhood house is like having a kid denied entry to a theme park in front of you because his parents thought he tripped his brother even though he didn't, then going in when you had been robbing people prior to that, and laughing at the boy. It's kinda sick.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?
He likes(d) power, and loved the Dark Arts. [staff edit]

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
It doesn't. I think that how he treated them, especially Neville, was uncalled for and cruel. [staff edit]

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?
He was guilty, so he went to lengths to try to "make right" his involvement. It was his attempt to wash his hands.

What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?
Besides making him [staff edit] obsessive? Made him loyal to Dumbly.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
S: Loyalty (twisted as it was) and Intellect. W: Cowardly, Vindictive, Unforgiving, Cruel, Lived in the past, Vain, Bully, Took advantage of power.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, you were serious? No.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
Neither. He was an authority figure. (Definitely NOT a father figure.)

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?
He's a total Slytherin. Cunning, uses any means to achieve his ends, ambitious, resourceful, and determined.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
He's not a hero! He is (was) a nasty, nasty man, who spent his whole short, miserable life trying to make up for a monumental mistake that he made. Now, did he do some good things? Yes. But That doesn't make him a hero.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
Neither. He was an authority figure. (Definitely NOT a father figure.)


Hi Lizzy and welcome to the thread. :tu:. I agreed with your answers, I viewed the canon about Snape in the same ways. I think your above answer is right on the money. I hadn't really found a label that I thought fitting, but I would agree that is how I see it too because Snape did appear to see Dumbledore as a person in authority - to be followed, but exceptions made when Snape's personal desires in certain respects (not all) were at issue, imo. I didn't read them as close enough to be friends and certainly not in a father/son type thing - but there was some respect and acknowledgement of Dumbledore's position and wisdom on Snape's part, imo.

Hi there, Lizzy_Potter :wave: :) I remember feeling similarly when read the first few books, so I can understand. :huggles:


I also suspect that Voldemort sent Wormtail to "assist" Severus partly because it amused him in his twisted way because there was no love lost between Severus and Wormtail, but mainly because he wasn't toally convinced of Snape's loyalty.

:agree: Wormtail was listening at doors, as Snape remarks, so I think we're to believe that that is the case, and that Wormtail was ordered to spy on Snape.

By the way, the way Snape phrases it ("He has lately taken to listening at doors") suggests that Snape had meetings with other people. I've always wondered who he was meeting. From his behavior at Order meetings, I think his dealings with Order members would be purely business, so he'd get no social calls from them, but perhaps some of them did stop by. That would explain why Snape answered the door, rather than Wormtail.
[/brainstorm]

I hope that makes sense I'm rather tired!

Yeah, that made sense. :D

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

No. I think he had to eventually recognize Harry's abilities, but, the fact that Harry looked so much like his father (except he had his mother's eyes), reminding Snape of so many unhappy memories, overshadowed any sense of wanting or needed Harry's forgiveness.

What do you think would Snape say about Albus Severus?

I think, deep inside, he would have been pleased, but would not have know how or wanted to show it.

Based on how his character is supposed to end up: if you could change/improve one thing about Snape, what would it be?
What do you think Snape would have done, if he had survived DH?
Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

Putting James Potter and the Mauraders behind him and getting over his animosity to Harry because of this. I think Snape might have mellowed a bit after Voldemort was gone and he didn't have to pretend anymore. I don't think he would ever have been a real jolly type. I don't think he knew how. But, he might have "thawed" a bit.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

No. I think the split between them caused him to lose any sense of self esteem he might have gained from her friendship. I also think he would have carried a grudge against James and the others all of his life anyway.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

Snape promised Dumbledore he would kill him, so, it wasn't exacty murder. I don't think that was out of love for Lily, but, out of loyalty to Dumbledore. What he did out of love for Lily was to make sure that Harry stayed safe while at Hogwarts and to do what he could to help bring about Voldemort's end.

Until it was revealed that Wormtail was the one who really betrayed Lily and James, Snape would have hated Sirius because he, like the others thought Sirius was the one who had turned on them.

Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Because it made him feel important and powerful. He didn't have much else to turn to.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

I think Snape knew that Harry was the "Chosen One" from GoF on. When he had to try to teach Harry Occlumancy (sp?) because of the way Harry and Voldemort were able to read each other's thoughts, I think he knew for sure then.

What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

His actions were those of a vindictive and selfish person. That he didn't want her killed was understandable. But, he didn't seem to understand or care what the deaths of James and Harry would do to her if she had survived.


What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

This was suppose to explain his turning against Voldemort and his acting as a double agent for Dumbledore. The fact that Dumbledore trusted him and gave him the chance to redeem himself, I think, explains why he felt such a fierce loyalty to Dumbledore.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Major strength was his loyalty to Dumbledore and the courage it took to spy on Voldemort knowing what could be done to him if discovered.

His weakness was an inability to understand others. He couldn't understand love, forgiveness, tenderness. The only one other than Dumbledore who seemed to have any type of relationship with him was Professor McGonagle, and, she lost her patience and trust in him several times. He seemed to have great respect for her, though.

Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I'm not sure. Was Snape capable of caring about anyone? Had he hidden and anesthetized his feelings so much in order to pretend to be a Death Eater, that he wasn't able to feel much emotionally.


What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

Maybe a bit. More than that, I think Dumbledore represented the only way Snape had of redeeming himself after helping to cause Lily's death. Dumbledore offered him a way of cleansing himself, by putting himself through the ordeal of pretending to work with Voldemort, of having to kill Dumbledore, of being the only one at Hogwarts after Dumbledore's death who could do even the least bit to protect the students from the new "instructors," and so on. What Snape had facing him was going to be dangerous and even life threatening.

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

It's hard to know. The Sorting Hat almost sent Harry there. I think if Snape had been exposed to fewer people interested in Dark Arts he might have had more of a chance not to have become a Death Eater.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?

Knowing Voldemort as he did, and, what he was capable of, Snape would have been so aware of what terrible things would have been in store for him if he was discovered. He had to be terrified most of the time, yet was able to carry off his role. Whether he did it out of loyalty to Dumbledore, his love for Lily, or a little of both, he put his life on the line from the time that Voldemort returned.

I also suspect that Voldemort sent Wormtail to "assist" Severus partly because it amused him in his twisted way because there was no love lost between Severus and Wormtail, but mainly because he wasn't toally convinced of Snape's loyalty. If we look at it from Voldemort's point of view and keep in mind that he doesn't trust anyone, he believes Snape has left him so when Severus does return he must surely believe that like Wormtail he has returned out of fear rather than loyalty. Voldemort knows that Snape knows he willl be a marked man if he does not return, and given his lack of trust in anyone it wouldn't be surprising if he was extremely doubtful of Snape's loyalty to him for all the reasons that Bella cites at Spinner's End.


Oh, yes I agree. I also think the incident at the MoM in OotP, must have made Voldemort question Snape's loyalty to him even more. Snape was the only member of the Order left at Hogwarts, and as so was the one to inform them that Harry had gone off to the Ministry. If he had not done so, the DE's may have been successful and retrieved the prophecy. I remember wondering how Severus was going to explain away that one to Voldemort, when I read OotP. So, seeing Wormtail spying on Snape at the beginning of HBP, wasn't a surprise to me.

I disagree, I think Snape never really respected Harry's mental privacy, before Legilimency was introduced, I think JKR, used different ways to show it, for instance by Harry's suspicions that Snape could see through his mind in PS, if Snape really cared for Harry emotionally,imo, he wouldnt have humilated him on his first potions class ever, he wouldnt have read silly articles loudly about him in front of the whole class, also he wouldnt have recalled horrible memories from Harry's mind during his Occlumency lessons, and he could've appreciated his efforts a bit more at Potions.

Snape was in charge of Harry's protection; in PS/SS there was Quirrell who Dumbledore was suspicious about, in COS there was the basilisk, in POA there was Black and in GOF, Voldemort was getting ready to come back. Harry was in the centre of all this, and I think Snape used every means at his disposal to see if Harry was in any danger and I think Legilimency was one of them.

I am not much in favour of Legilimency; (I think that's too close to mind violation); a person entering the mind has to have more than enough justification IMO, for he is privy to one's most personal thought and he goes to the centre of our being, making the person very vulnerable to him. Which is why Snape's silence on Harry's Occlumency lessons is very telling. He witnesses Harry at his most vulnerable moments and his lack of comments on them to Harry and his silence about it to everyone else is very comforting. One using Legilimency senses fear, shame, joy and everything he sees within the other mind and he could destroy the person using these things against them.

I think Snape's silence says that he respects Harry's privacy, he never uses them against Harry even when he is very angry (in the Flight of the Prince in HBP for example); he needs to see them when he is taking those lessons and at other times, when he feels that Harry is in danger or if Harry is doing something that could place him in danger. Which is something IMO that cannot not be avoided by Snape or Dumbledore.

In TPT, Snape promised Dumbledore to help him protect Harry yet he begged him not to mention it to anyone because he couldnt bear the idea of 'Potter's son' , I think Snape kept that promise very well, he kept Harry safe and helped him defeat Voldemort for Lily's sake, but other than that he was the obnoxious Potter boy, the son of his enemy, imo.

I wondered about this remark quite a bit. I could understand that Snape did not want anyone to know. But especially 'Potter's Son', which meant that he did not want James Potter's son to know. I think that was because of what James Potter represented to Snape.

It's like when we don't like a person, and would be happy if we never saw them again, we are hardly going to make an effort to get close to their child, unless the child proves to be interesting and quite different from the parent.

I think Snape's dislike of James made him vulnerable to his son. James, in Snape's opinion would react in a way to this information which Snape knew he would not like. And he did not want to take a chance with Harry, because, for all Snape knew, Harry would react in the same way as James.

He asks Dumbledore not to say anything to James Potter's son. But Snape himself realises that he is quite mistaken about James Potters son IMO, because he comes to know that Harry is nothing like James and so, he turns back on his own statement and gives those memories to Harry, himself.

I wondered about this remark quite a bit. I could understand that Snape did not want anyone to know. But especially 'Potter's Son', which meant that he did not want James Potter's son to know. I think that was because of what James Potter represented to Snape.

It's like when we don't like a person, and would be happy if we never saw them again, we are hardly going to make an effort to get close to their child, unless the child proves to be interesting and quite different from the parent.


I disagree. I feel that Snape's biggest problem was that any son of Lily's would represent her love for another man. That the man also happened to be someone Snape disliked was just more fuel for the fire, imo, but I feel his treatment of Harry was largely based in his feelings of jealousy because Harry had Lily's eyes, but his looks otherwise were the same as the man she loved, imo. I feel Snape was really keen on that man being himself and when that didn't pan out, he couldn't get over it. Another factor is that Harry was not only James Potter's son - he was also Lily Potter's son. That is the part that is missing from Snape's deliberations, imo, because at that point, he'd never met or seen Harry and the only thing he knew about him was that he had Lily's eyes - yet he still seemed to ignore the fact that he was her child in terms of his attitude, imo, and his later treatment of her son. Why would he assume the child would be like his father before ever having met him? And why didn't he search his feelings to understand why it would be okay for the son to be like the father? After all, the father was the person the mother loved and imo, if Snape truly loved Lily, he would respect her enough to respect her choice and emotions, imo and show her son kindness or at minimum, civility, imo. That is why I feel that the only thing that really explains Snape's behavior and words in this scene is extreme and intense jealousy (imo).

Snape was in charge of Harry's protection; in PS/SS there was Quirrell who Dumbledore was suspicious about, in COS there was the basilisk, in POA there was Black and in GOF, Voldemort was getting ready to come back. Harry was in the centre of all this, and I think Snape used every means at his disposal to see if Harry was in any danger and I think Legilimency was one of them.

I get your point, but I disagree, There were many occasions in which Snape had used Legilimency on Harry and there was no danger involvement, I cant apply the protection thing on many situations, here's one in GoF, chapter 27: Padfoot's return.


"I haven't been anywhere near your office!" said Harry angrily, forgetting his feigned deafness.

"Don't lie to me," Snape hissed, his fathomless black eyes boring into Harry's. "Boomslang skin. Gillyweed. Both came from my private stores and I know who stole them."

Harry stared back, determined not to blink or look guilty.

I can't see how could Snape have possibly used Legilimency for Harry's protection in this situation.

I am not much in favour of Legilimency; (I think that's too close to mind violation); a person entering the mind has to have more than enough justification IMO, for he is privy to one's most personal thought and he goes to the centre of our being, making the person very vulnerable to him. Which is why Snape's silence on Harry's Occlumency lessons is very telling. He witnesses Harry at his most vulnerable moments and his lack of comments on them to Harry and his silence about it to everyone else is very comforting. One using Legilimency senses fear, shame, joy and everything he sees within the other mind and he could destroy the person using these things against them.

I think Snape's silence says that he respects Harry's privacy, he never uses them against Harry even when he is very angry (in the Flight of the Prince in HBP for example); he needs to see them when he is taking those lessons and at other times, when he feels that Harry is in danger or if Harry is doing something that could place him in danger. Which is something IMO that cannot not be avoided by Snape or Dumbledore.

I think the reason Snape never said anything about Harry's memories is that the whole subject of Occlumency was secretive and everyone who knew about it was forbidden to say anything about it. When Draco came to Snape's office and say the two of them practising it, Snape hastened to say that they were having Potions lessons, and imo, this was out of loyality to the Order and not protection to Harry's privacy. And Snape's silence could also be interpreted as his fear that if he spoke of Harry's secrets and memories, so Harry would.


He asks Dumbledore not to say anything to James Potter's son. But Snape himself realises that he is quite mistaken about James Potters son IMO, because he comes to know that Harry is nothing like James and so, he turns back on his own statement and gives those memories to Harry, himself.

IMO, I think Snape never changed his mind about James, and I think that until the day he had died, he believed Harry to be just as James in his arrogance, love of popularity, etc. and imo, the reason he gives Harry those memories, is that he needed him to understand about the Horcrux hidden inside him, as Dumbledore had asked him, and he couldnt have convinced Harry without giving him some information and evidences about his real self, imo, he didnt give Harry those memories because he liked him, changed his mind about him or needed his forgiveness in any way. He Snape had just given Harry that memory of him and Dumbledore discussing Harry, there was big possibility that Harry might've still thought Snape to be a true DE.

I get your point, but I disagree, There were many occasions in which Snape had used Legilimency on Harry and there was no danger involvement, I cant apply the protection thing on many situations, here's one in GoF, chapter 27: Padfoot's return.



I can't see how could Snape have possibly used Legilimency for Harry's protection in this situation.

Hmmm... I don't think Snape is using Legilimency in this particular instance.
Snape thinks Harry stole the Boomslang skin and Gillyweed, but he didn't. If he had used Legilimency on Harry here, he would have discovered that it was actually Hermione that stole the Boomslang skin and Dobby the Gillyweed, but he doesn't.

Harry stared back at Snape, determined not to blink, or to look guilty. In truth he hadn't stole either of these things from Snape. Hermione had taken the Boomslang skin back in their second year - they had needed it for the Polyjuice Potion - and while Snape had suspected Harry at the time, he had never been able to prove it. Dobby of course, had stolen the Gillyweed.
'I don't know what you're talking about,' Harry lied coldly.
'You were out of bed on the night my office was broken into!' Snape hissed. 'I know it ,Pottr! Now, mad-Eye Moody might have joined your little fan club, but I will not tolerate your behaviour! One more night-time stroll into my office, potter and you will pay!'

Hmmm... I don't think Snape is using Legilimency in this particular instance.
Snape thinks Harry stole the Boomslang skin and Gillyweed, but he didn't. If he had used Legilimency on Harry here, he would have discovered that it was actually Hermione that stole the Boomslang skin and Dobby the Gillyweed, but he doesn't.

Harry stared back at Snape, determined not to blink, or to look guilty. In truth he hadn't stole either of these things from Snape. Hermione had taken the Boomslang skin back in their second year - they had needed it for the Polyjuice Potion - and while Snape had suspected Harry at the time, he had never been able to prove it. Dobby of course, had stolen the Gillyweed.
'I don't know what you're talking about,' Harry lied coldly.
'You were out of bed on the night my office was broken into!' Snape hissed. 'I know it ,Pottr! Now, mad-Eye Moody might have joined your little fan club, but I will not tolerate your behaviour! One more night-time stroll into my office, potter and you will pay!'

He probably just saw the fact that Harry was innocent, because he said, "I know you were out of bed that night" and did not say "I know you stole stuff from my office." this imo, refers that he knew Harry was innocent via using Legilimency but he was still convinced that Harry had been out of bed, that's how I read it.

He probably just saw the fact that Harry was innocent, because he said, "I know you were out of bed that night" and did not say "I know you stole stuff from my office." this imo, refers that he knew Harry was innocent via using Legilimency but he was still convinced that Harry had been out of bed, that's how I read it.

:hmm: Hmm...but then Snape goes on to threaten Harry with Veritaserum, saying that once the drops are administered "then we'll find out whether you've been in my office or not." It appears Snape's still at that point accusing Harry of stealing.

I honestly think that if Snape had used Legilimency on Harry at any other time during the series, Rowling would have written something similar to what she wrote when Snape used it on him in Moaning Murtle's bathroom: "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes". I feel that the effect Legilimency creates would be too important to ignore in multiple instances and books. That's one reason why I don't think Snape used it on Harry until OotP and HBP.

He probably just saw the fact that Harry was innocent, because he said, "I know you were out of bed that night" and did not say "I know you stole stuff from my office." this imo, refers that he knew Harry was innocent via using Legilimency but he was still convinced that Harry had been out of bed, that's how I read it.

I'm still not convinced that Snape was using Legilimecy here, as he is still convinced Harry broke into his office the night the Boomslang skin was stolen by Crouch Jnr, and goes on to threaten Harry with Veritaserum. So, it seems as if Snape still thinks Harry stole the Boomslang skin.

'Now the use of this Potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch our step, you might just find that my hand slips -' he shook the crystal bottle slightly'- right over your evening pumpkin juice. And then, Potter...then we'll find out whether youv'e been in my office or not.'

I honestly think that if Snape had used Legilimency on Harry at any other time during the series, Rowling would have written something similar to what she wrote when Snape used it on him in Moaning Murtle's bathroom: "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes". I feel that the effect Legilimency creates would be too important to ignore in multiple instances and books. That's one reason why I don't think Snape used it on Harry until OotP and HBP.

I think you're right, JLTucker. The description of Snape actually using Legilimency is unique in the series, and Harry knows Snape is pulling the picture of the potions book out from among other memories.

I also remember what it was like trying to lie to my parents when I was a kid, trying hard not to blink in order to look innocent and straightforward. Looking back as an adult, and knowing my own kids, it's a pretty pitiful attempt, but I think we've all thought that was the way to be convincing at one time in our childhood.

I honestly think that if Snape had used Legilimency on Harry at any other time during the series, Rowling would have written something similar to what she wrote when Snape used it on him in Moaning Murtle's bathroom: "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes". I feel that the effect Legilimency creates would be too important to ignore in multiple instances and books. That's one reason why I don't think Snape used it on Harry until OotP and HBP.

I disagree, I think Jo used different ways to express the use of Legilimency, not just with Snape but also with Dumbledore, like the feeling of being x-rayed and suspecting that Snape could read Harry's mind when Harry had never heard or dreamed of Legilimency, also the expression of Snape's eyes boring into or lingering on Harry's eyes, all these, imo expressed the use of Legilimency, whether by Snape or Dumbledore.

I honestly think that if Snape had used Legilimency on Harry at any other time during the series, Rowling would have written something similar to what she wrote when Snape used it on him in Moaning Murtle's bathroom: "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes". I feel that the effect Legilimency creates would be too important to ignore in multiple instances and books. That's one reason why I don't think Snape used it on Harry until OotP and HBP.

I agree! Indeed the times when we know Snape using Legilimency it is made obvious. Harry was aware of Snape performing Legilimency during the Occlumency lessons and also after using Sectumsempra. Even Draco is aware that Snape is trying to use Legilimency on him when he is being questioned by Snape in HBP, The Unbreakable Vow. So, I think we would have had some description like the one you mentioned if Snape was using Legilimency.

IMO, just because Legilimency was not introduced before OOTP doesn't mean it was not used, JKR used to hint on other things before introducing them.

I agree! Indeed the times when we know Snape using Legilimency it is made obvious. Harry was aware of Snape performing Legilimency during the Occlumency lessons and also after using Sectumsempra. Even Draco is aware that Snape is trying to use Legilimency on him when he is being questioned by Snape in HBP, The Unbreakable Vow. So, I think we would have had some description like the one you mentioned if Snape was using Legilimency.

Draco was good at Occlumency, that's probably why he realised Snape was using Legilimency on him.

IMO, just because Legilimency was not introduced before OOTP doesn't mean it was not used, JKR used to hint on other things before introducing them.

What you say makes sense. :)

If we're still discussing the GoF scene, and not Legilimency in general, we know that Snape doesn't know the truth by the time the conversation ends.

I think this fact can be interpreted one of two ways. Either Snape did not use Legilimency on Harry and is going by Harry's expressions and body language to determine his guilt, or he is using Legiimency, but it's only scratching the surface and bringing up feelings of deceit and guilt.

In this particular case, there is no sign that any magic is going on at all when Snape and Harry look at each other. While this doesn't decisively prove anything (Snape could just be that skilled) it might suggest that Snape is not using the power at that moment.

Draco was good at Occlumency, that's probably why he realised Snape was using Legilimency on him.

Ah, but Harry was dreadful at Occlumency, yet he also recognised it when it was used on him afer the Sectumsempra incident .

abusing his position as a teacher to torture Neville
While Severus may well have been a nasty teacher who abused his position he didn't torture anybody. We are given an example of a teacher torturing students in Umbridge and as we see Dumbledore objects to his students being harmed. Dumbledore does not onject to Snape's treatment of the student and Jo has indicated in interviews that Dumbledore believed that learnign to deal with people like Snape would be a useful life lesson for the students.


He was never ON the good side.
Yes he was. As Harry says he was Dumbledore's man from the moment that Voldemort threatened Lily.
His treatment of Sirius always has been despicable.
There is a lot I could say ... but I won't! :angel:

Lupin said that Sirius never hesitated to RETALIATE.
I don't recall that. Do you have the quote?

Cowardly, Vindictive, Unforgiving, Cruel, Lived in the past, Vain, Bully, Took advantage of power.
I can't see how Snape can be called cowardly - Harry Potter says he is the bravest man he ever knew. And vain? :huh:

This was suppose to explain his turning against Voldemort and his acting as a double agent for Dumbledore.
Snape actuyally turned against Voldemort and spied on him for Dumbledore BEFORE Lily died.
I am not much in favour of Legilimency; (I think that's too close to mind violation); a person entering the mind has to have more than enough justification IMO, for he is privy to one's most personal thought and he goes to the centre of our being, making the person very vulnerable to him. I'm not sure I agree with this definition of legilimency. I thought it was more to do with picking up on memories and feelings (or memories conected to certain feelings)

He probably just saw the fact that Harry was innocent, because he said, "I know you were out of bed that night" and did not say "I know you stole stuff from my office." this imo, refers that he knew Harry was innocent via using Legilimency but he was still convinced that Harry had been out of bed, that's how I read it.
While I think there are times when both Snape and Dumbledore use legilimency on Harry I do not think that this scene is one. The scenes i associate with leglimency are where Snape (or Dumbledore) eyes are boring into him or staring at him piercingly. This is often accompanied by Harry thinking of various things.

In this scene thought there is no mention of Snape staring at him hard. I also think that when he says "You were out of bed that night" he is offering it as evidence against Harry - becasue he never actually saw Harry that night, but he knows Harry was out of bed because he saw his egg and he knows Harry has an invisiblity cloak. As such I really don't think that Snape was using legilimency here.

Ah, but Harry was dreadful at Occlumency, yet he also recognised it when it was used on him afer the Sectumsempra incident .

Makes sense :tu: but Harry had experienced how it feels to be Legilimenced from his Occlumency lessons with Snape, which means that he knows when someone is trying to see through his mind.

What you say makes sense. :)

If we're still discussing the GoF scene, ...I think this fact can be interpreted one of two ways. Either Snape did not use Legilimency on Harry and is going by Harry's expressions and body language to determine his guilt, or he is using Legiimency, but it's only scratching the surface and bringing up feelings of deceit and guilt.

I respect your view, but my impression was that Legilimency does not reveal feelings such as guilt or deciet, but rather allows images to be revealed. For example, the book swiming to Harry's mind or Snape sitting in that corner at his house shooting flies and so on. Harry didn't know what the exact emotion was that the kid felt as he sat there, just saw the scene, iirc.

Dumbledore does not onject to Snape's treatment of the student and Jo has indicated in interviews that Dumbledore believed that learnign to deal with people like Snape would be a useful life lesson for the students.

:agree: I'd say Harry had learnt from Snape's attitude toward him much more than he'd learnt from what Snape had taught them, Potions or DADA.

Yes he was. As Harry says he was Dumbledore's man from the moment that Voldemort threatened Lily.

This is a fact of course, but I'd like to point out that the Snape which people saw and judged on, was much different than the real Snape, his behaviour didnt warm him to other people, even the Order's members, imo, people had difficulty in saying Snape was good, no matter what he was.


I can't see how Snape can be called cowardly - Harry Potter says he is the bravest man he ever knew. And vain? :huh:

Snape was very enigmatic probably just as Voldemort, no one really knew anything about before he had died (I'd say too bad and too late), so his actions could be interpreted in many ways, I think he was a brave person, but some of his actions might refer to something else.

I disagree, I think Jo used different ways to express the use of Legilimency, not just with Snape but also with Dumbledore, like the feeling of being x-rayed and suspecting that Snape could read Harry's mind when Harry had never heard or dreamed of Legilimency, also the expression of Snape's eyes boring into or lingering on Harry's eyes, all these, imo expressed the use of Legilimency, whether by Snape or Dumbledore.
I believe that if this were the case, Harry would have experienced the effect described in OotP and HBP and he most definitely would have told Ron and Hermione.

While Severus may well have been a nasty teacher who abused his position he didn't torture anybody.

I would agree that everyone defines words distinctly, but I think that Snape's treatment of Neville, resulting in his becoming Neville's greatest fear (beyond dementors, DEs, Voldemort, and all the creatures that caused fright for everyone else), is indicative of the grave degree of mistreatment that Neville received at his hands. I did feel that Snape's behavior rose to the level of torture in HBP when he whipped Harry across the face (Flight of the Prince); that is the type of treatment I imagined the students suffered at the hands of the Carrows in DH (imo).

Yes he was. As Harry says he was Dumbledore's man from the moment that Voldemort threatened Lily.

In my opinion, that was not a literal statement because when Voldemort threatened Lily, Snape's first response was to remain loyal to Voldemort and request that he spare Lily (DH TPT) and thereafter, he went to Dumbledore, but he was not Dumbledore's man at the time of their conversation, imo. I don't feel the canon reveals exactly when Snape switched loyalties altogether, but it was quite some time after the targeting, imo (Harry knew less than the reader about Snape, imo, as he was not witness to scenes from Spinner's End or Dark Lord Ascending and so forth.). Another factor is that while Snape's loyalties may have changed, I don't feel that is necessarily synonymous with 'switching sides' as in becoming a good sider and shirking all of one's old belief system and adopting a new one (imo). That might be what is meant by Snape was never on the good side, imo.

I don't recall that. Do you have the quote?

I don't remember the quote either; but I do feel that Snape's behavior at #12 G with Sirius displayed goading. In that scene, Snape brings up Sirius' plight of having to remain in the house in what to me was a taunting fashion, five times before he gets a like reaction out of Sirius (OOTP Occlumency). And Sirius indicted earlier in that same scene that Snape was doing that at meetings as well (ibid).

I can't see how Snape can be called cowardly - Harry Potter says he is the bravest man he ever knew.

I think it is a matter of opinion; I respect your view (and Harry's, keeping in mind he said 'probably' and was attempting to convince his son that Slytherin was not an entirely doomed house, imo), but I would have to agree with LizzyPotter.

I'm not sure I agree with this definition of legilimency. I thought it was more to do with picking up on memories and feelings (or memories conected to certain feelings)

I agree, this is what I was saying earlier as well. I don't think it picks up on emotions, other than what can be determined from the particular 'scene thoughts' a person is having. So if Voldy asked Snape where his loyalties lie, for example, and Dumbledore swam through his head, that would mean it was Dumbledore and he'd be caught in a lie. That is how I thought it worked based on the canon.

This is a fact of course, but I'd like to point out that the Snape which people saw and judged on, was much different than the real Snape, his behaviour didnt warm him to other people, even the Order's members, imo, people had difficulty in saying Snape was good, no matter what he was.Well I was responding to someone who said that Snape was never on the good side. Whether or not Snape was good comes down to ones individual beliefs of what makes a person "good" - a discussion I don't really want to get into :scared:

IMO, just because Legilimency was not introduced before OOTP doesn't mean it was not used, JKR used to hint on other things before introducing them.

Draco was good at Occlumency, that's probably why he realised Snape was using Legilimency on him.

I think we have to take into account that Snape also has another reason for looking at Harry's eyes besides Legillimency. :) Harry's eyes remind him of Lily, and in HBP during DADA class, Harry notices that Snape gives him a look that is different from the way he looks at the other kids. He believes it is hate, of course, but at the end of the book we find out it is not exactly that, in my opinion.

But there was no reason for Snape to be doing Legillimency in DADA class, so Snape's looks aren't just about that every time, imo.