Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Once again, I agree...but... we aren't talking about somebody that gets to go out and open an ice cream shop. Harry is going to have to face the Dark Lord and Snape knows it. Who would you rather have in the fight, a Marine or a piano tuner? Piano tuners are trained in their craft and great at what they do but they can be as soft as they want. Marines need to be tough, hardened, and battle ready. Severus was training a Marine.

When has strength of charactor been dependant on a profession? When has a trained soldier been guaranteed to be an effective warrior? Snape was baiting a child, not sending him across an obstacle course. Harry needed someone help him prepare, that's true. I just don't believe that Snape's behaviour helped him all the time. And some Marine's I would not trust at my back, but if I was going into battle the soldier from history I would want at my side would be Gen. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. 20th Maine. He started out as a schoolteacher of rhetoric and theology and ended up as one of the most respected soldiers in the American Civil War.
And went back to being a schoolteacher.

He started out as a schoolteacher of rhetoric and theology and ended up as one of the most respected soldiers in the American Civil War.
And went back to being a schoolteacher.

I honestly respect your opinion but (there it is again), I'm will to bet that General Chamberlain had qualities separate from those he employed in the classroom. (I couldn't know for sure, I have not studied him). I'm also willing to bet that he did not face his opponent alone, being the one Chosen to bring about his downfall. He was not the one who had an evil wizard trying to kill him for 17 years. Severus was not the only one involved in Harry's learning and upbringing, there were plenty of others that would be nothing but kind to him. Snape was the one that was hard, callous, and completely necessary.
I respect your arguement, I just respectfully disagree. If we were talking about any other child in the world, wizarding or otherwise, I would completely agree.

By the way...
When has strength of charactor been dependant on a profession? When has a trained soldier been guaranteed to be an effective warrior?

I didn't mean that a piano tuner would not have strength of character, I meant that I would prefer that the Marine did the fighting. There is no guarantee that he would be better but I like my odds.
I have nothing but respect for all decent people and there respective vocations.

Parents punish, I agree. But they never mock.

Actually in these books, they do mock. Mrs. Weasley is extremely sarcastic with the Twins and Ron at times.

"Dress robes!" repeated Mrs. Weasley. "It says on your school list that you’re suppose to have dress robes this year… robes for formal occasions."
"You’ve got to be kidding," said Ron is disbelief. "I’m not wearing that, no way."
"Everyone wears them, Ron!" said Mrs. Weasley crossly. "They’re all like that! Your father’s got some for smart parties."
"I’ll go starkers before I put that on," said Ron stubbornly. [snip]
"I’m never wearing them," Ron was saying stubbornly. "Never."
"Fine," snapped Mrs. Weasley. "Go naked. And, Harry, make sure you get a picture of him.


Or this one that I think sounds just like Snape talking to Harry:

"Mum, d'you honestly think You-Know-Who's going to be hiding behind a bookshelf in Flourish and Blotts?" s******ed Ron.
"Fortescue and Ollivander went on holiday, did they?" said Mrs. Weasley, firing up at once. "If you think security's a laughing matter you can stay behind and I'll get your things myself?
"No, I wanna come, I want to see Fred and George's shop!" said Ron hastily.
"Then you just buck up your ideas, young man, before I decide you're too immature to come with us!" said Mrs. Weasley angrily, snatching up her clock, all nine hands of which were still pointing at "mortal peril," and balancing it on top of a pile of just-laundered towels. "And that goes for returning to Hogwarts as well!"

And I think the main thing that puts Snape's words in perspective is that Harry had already been traumatized as much as possible by the Dursleys:

"Your aunt and uncle will be proud, though, won't they?" said Hermione as they got off the train and joined the crowd thronging toward the enchanted barrier. "When they hear what you did this year?"
"Proud?" said Harry. "Are you crazy? All those times I could've died, and I didn't manage it? They'll be furious..."

In addition, I agree that it was important for Snape to have the negative feelings feelings for James fresh in his mind and interchangable with his feelings for Harry...for just such an emergancy as the Dark Lord taking a look into his mind. He would have to give the appearance of letting him in to his thoughts and feelings without letting him see his real motivations. Anecdotal evidence of his treatment of Harry et al is one thing, but the Dark Lord will want to see inside Severus' head for himself.


And Voldemort does too; see into Snape's mind.


Snape smiled.

'Before I answer you - oh yes, Bellatrix, I am going to answer! .....

..... let me ask a question in turn. Do you really think that the Dark Lord has not asked me each and every one of those questions? And do you really think that, had I not been able to give satisfactory answers, I would be sitting here talking to you?'

She hesitated.

'I know he believes you, but -'

'You think he is mistaken? Or that I have somehow hoodwinked him? Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legillimens the world has ever seen?'

Just memories alone would not do to prove loyalty. They must be accompanied by feelings and I think Snape did a fine job, fooling Voldemort with both memories and feelings IMO.

I honestly respect your opinion but (there it is again), I'm will to bet that General Chamberlain qualities separate from those he employed in the classroom. (I couldn't know for sure, I have not studied him). I'm also willing to bet that he did not face his opponent alone, being the one Chosen to bring about his downfall. He was not the one who had an evil wizard trying to kill him for 17 years. Severus was not the only one involved in Harry's learning and upbringing, there were plenty of others that would be nothing but kind to him. Snape was the one that was hard, callous, and completely necessary.
I respect your arguement, I just respectfully disagree. If we were talking about any other child in the world, wizarding or otherwise, I would completely agree.

Well Gen Chamberlain did say his quick thinking when he was in mortal danger was sharpened by his dealings with young schoolboys but that is bye the bye, my point is that Snape was not doing much in the way of preparing Harry to do battle with LV. He was being nasty and cutting, mainly about his father, and no I don't see that as being much help in preparing someone to go out and fight the good fight. But we see thing differently so lets just agree to disagree.

Or this one that I think sounds just like Snape talking to Harry:

"Mum, d'you honestly think You-Know-Who's going to be hiding behind a bookshelf in Flourish and Blotts?" s******ed Ron.
"Fortescue and Ollivander went on holiday, did they?" said Mrs. Weasley, firing up at once. "If you think security's a laughing matter you can stay behind and I'll get your things myself?
"No, I wanna come, I want to see Fred and George's shop!" said Ron hastily.
"Then you just buck up your ideas, young man, before I decide you're too immature to come with us!" said Mrs. Weasley angrily, snatching up her clock, all nine hands of which were still pointing at "mortal peril," and balancing it on top of a pile of just-laundered towels. "And that goes for returning to Hogwarts as well!"

Or this one that I think sounds just like Snape talking to Harry:

"Mum, d'you honestly think You-Know-Who's going to be hiding behind a bookshelf in Flourish and Blotts?" s******ed Ron.
"Fortescue and Ollivander went on holiday, did they?" said Mrs. Weasley, firing up at once. "If you think security's a laughing matter you can stay behind and I'll get your things myself?
"No, I wanna come, I want to see Fred and George's shop!" said Ron hastily.
"Then you just buck up your ideas, young man, before I decide you're too immature to come with us!" said Mrs. Weasley angrily, snatching up her clock, all nine hands of which were still pointing at "mortal peril," and balancing it on top of a pile of just-laundered towels. "And that goes for returning to Hogwarts as well!"

Where in this typical diatribe from Molly is there any mention of how terrible the children's father is and what a worthless arrogant twit he is? And how is she saying that they are just as worthless? Yes Molly does go overboard, but underneath there is clear signs that she is ranting because she loves her children and wants them safe.

And I think the main thing that puts Snape's words in perspective is that Harry had already been traumatized as much as possible by the Dursleys:

"Your aunt and uncle will be proud, though, won't they?" said Hermione as they got off the train and joined the crowd thronging toward the enchanted barrier. "When they hear what you did this year?"
"Proud?" said Harry. "Are you crazy? All those times I could've died, and I didn't manage it? They'll be furious..."

The Dursley's behaviour to Harry is cruel and abusive, that does not give Snape the reason to be as well. Snape is there to protect and help train Harry, not to abuse him. Even if you believe that he is putting on an act for the benefit of the DE's and LV it does not change how Harry is treated by him.
It may be tough love, but I don't think so. I think it is abuse that may or may not justified in Snape's mind. Personally, I think he got a lot of vicarious pleasure from treating James' son in this manner. I think he started to change later as books progressed, but quite frankly, IMO he could not bring himself to act any differenly with Harry.

Eliza: It's true - I don't see Snape as cruel and abusive like the Dursleys. Many times Harry is in trouble because of Harry, and not because of Snape.

Where in this typical diatribe from Molly is there any mention of how terrible the children's father is and what a worthless arrogant twit he is? And how is she saying that they are just as worthless? Yes Molly does go overboard, but underneath there is clear signs that she is ranting because she loves her children and wants them safe.

How about this quote from Molly, OotP, Chapter 5:

"What's wrong Harry is that you are not your father, however much you might look like him!" said Mrs. Weasley, her eyes still boring into Sirius. "You are still at school and adults responsible for you should not forget that."

Molly is arguing there that Harry is too young to be following in the footsteps of James and Sirius. She is being protective and mentioning Harry's father to make a point.

My point is that Snape is hardly the only adult in the books who speaks sternly to Harry. If Snape didn't really care he wouldn't mention James at all. I really thinks he wants to see more of Lily in Harry, and less James, and I don't see what's wrong with that.

To think Snape was a bully or cruel or abusive in the first 6 Books is okay. I did not; but I can understand people thinking ill of Snape or calling him a bully, for it can be argued that Snape could still turn out to be the bad guy; then his actions would not be seen favourably.

But after DH and the TPT, with the nature of the memories Snape handed over to Harry, and knowing Snape's role in Hogwarts and with effect to Harry and also knowing that Voldemort would and did mind rape him and saw for himself the memories and the feelings associated with it, I don't think I can say Snape was abusive or cruel or a bully.

For he never conducted himself as one. We have seen bullies in the Books itself. Dudley Dursley, Piers Polkiss, James Potter (Lily called him an arrogant bullying toerag and Sirius and Remus did not exactly contradict it), Draco Malfoy, and Snape really does not fit the bill IMO.

He was harsh to Harry, Neville, Hermione and many others, I presume. But when I know the motivation behind the act, I don't think I can call him cruel or abusive.

To deliberately and consciously behave in a certain manner is IMO far different from naturally being of a particular nature.

And when I understand what was at stake and how much Harry would stand to lose, I can only be thankful, Snape was able to carry it off perfectly and fool Voldemort.

If, for that he cursed James Potter a few times or called Harry a nasty boy who thought the rules were beneath him, well I really don't care. :)

If, for that he cursed James Potter a few times or called Harry a nasty boy who thought the rules were beneath him, well I really don't care.
That's exactly how I feel about it! :tu: :agree:

I think Harry pushes Snape over the edge a few times with his rule breaking. I think any teacher would be angry, and sometimes McGonagall is furious.

But in this case Snape also knows that he is going to risk his life to protect this kid who is much too willing to put himself in danger all the time. Harry is a risk-taker just like his Dad, and Snape is the one trying to protect him. It's maddening.

He was being nasty and cutting, mainly about his father, and no I don't see that as being much help in preparing someone to go out and fight the good fight. But we see thing differently so lets just agree to disagree.
Actually, I don't disagree with most of what you are saying... and I don't think it was necessary for Severus to behave that way. I just don't think it was particularly harmful. I also don't think he was just bad-talking James, I think he was comparing Harry's attitude and behavior to the worst in James... which may have been all that Severus saw in him. One reason I can think of to do that is to show ( whether he meant to or not) is that it hurts others. Severus for one, and those striving to keep Harry safe and putting themselves on the line for him while he grants them "poor repayment indeed".
I will, however, agree to disagree even though I don't think we're THAT far apart.

Where in this typical diatribe from Molly is there any mention of how terrible the children's father is and what a worthless arrogant twit he is? And how is she saying that they are just as worthless? Yes Molly does go overboard, but underneath there is clear signs that she is ranting because she loves her children and wants them safe.

Forgive me for this, I'm coming off as argumentative and I don't mean to, but the Weasley kids aren't very well behaved. Perhaps they could have used a little snark.
(oh, c'mon, kidding!!!) (maybe)

SIP and TGW are far more elloquent than me. I humbly concede to their persuasive arguments and withdraw my banal comments. :)

I think Harry pushes Snape over the edge a few times with his rule breaking. I think any teacher would be angry, and sometimes McGonagall is furious.

:agree:

All the more, because Snape has taken it upon himself to look after Harry. McGonagall, for instance did not even notice the bucking broom ins PS/SS; while Snape was already chanting the counter; that was how close Snape was watching Harry and every time Harry rushed off somewhere, I think Snape's blood pressure probably shot up.

Well, I will add this: I can't be angry with a man that has my best interests at heart, even if his methods are difficult. I think Harry saw this and showed it in the name of his son.

Well, I will add this: I can't be angry with a man that has my best interests at heart, even if his methods are difficult. I think Harry saw this and showed it in the name of his son.

Exactly! :agree:

His method was not by choice, but by circumstance IMO. He needed to be this way, to keep his cover, which makes it very different from "he was this way" or "he wanted to be this way" IMO.

You cannot imagine the incredible shame I felt upon finishing the last page of Deathly Hallows: I had just unwittingly proven that I often believe the worst of anyone even on the most superficial of reasons. J.K. Rowling made me realize how aggressive and mistrustful I was towards people who I barely understood. For this, among many other things, I will forever be indebted to Mrs. Rowling. Thank you, Jo.
First of all Welcome! :wave:
I would personally like to offer you the "CathyWeasley award for Honesty and Integrity when posting on the Snape thread".

Although I always believed that Severus was working for Dumbledore, I must admit that afte finishing DH I was hugely thankful for the series of books. I was never quite sure how love was going to defeat Voldemort, or exactly how Snape's story would be played out. I think she wrote an absolute classic.

By killing Dumbledore, he has practically doomed himself, as he is now thought to be 100% Death Eater; his reputation is destroyed. He is second only to Voldemort as the most wanted wizard in Britain, which makes his odds of survival practically zilch. He is anything but a coward! So when Harry venomously accuses him as such, not knowing the whole story and just how massive a sacrifice Snape is making in his name, Severus is furious at the injustice and unfairness of it all. He can’t explain himself and assure the boy that everything is perfectly going as planned. He can’t let anyone know that he is still on the side of good without blowing the entire plot, and to be verbally abused like that, after everything he has gone through… I’d be stung by such words too.
:tu: I find that scene very, very moving. Both people are highly emotional - it is so very poignant.

I am convinced that, decades or maybe even centuries from now, of the many timeless elements of J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter series Severus Snape will be one of the highest-regarded. An ingenious study of how even the most horrible person can redeem themselves, a terrific antagonist (for the first six books, at least), an unforgettable enigma, a tragic story of unwavering love, wonderfully layered and nuance-laden…Snape is all of them. This creation of Rowling’s is timeless, in every sense of the word, and a masterpiece of characterization.Word!
I feel very priveleged to have been able to read the last book when it came out. Future generations may well know Snape's loyalties before they even start the first book.

When has a trained soldier been guaranteed to be an effective warrior? :wow: What? A trained soilder should be a effective warrior (according to their rank) If they are not then they should not be employed in the armed forces. The whole point of training is to make them an effective warrior.

I personally think the UK armed forces are the best trained in the world and I am incredibly proud of them and their skills, and extremely grateful for the job they do. The training they recieve is designed to turn them into good soilders who can operate as part of a whole. They are not trained to be nice. Drill sergeant's are not nice to the recruits they train and I actually think that in some ways Snape is a drill sergeant, instilling discipline.

Harry needed someone help him prepare, that's true. I just don't believe that Snape's behaviour helped him all the time. Nobody is suggesting that Snape's behaviour helped all the time; I for one am only suggesting that Snape made a significant contribution to Harry's preparation for facing his tasks as "The Chosen One". And in that respect he is like many other characters in the books who contributed, but whose behaviour was not helpful all the time.

Drill sergeant's are not nice to the recruits they train and I actually think that in some ways Snape is a drill sergeant, instilling discipline.

Once again, somebody said it better than me...and I couldn't agree more. He even had a little review session as he fled the Hogwarts grounds. I'm not sure of the exact quote but it was something like, 'Blocked again, and again, and again, until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed.' The occlumency lessons may have been a disaster but I believe that Severus was trying to teach him discipline and was only partially to blame for that fiasco.

I always thought, and I still believe Snape disliked Harry very much. He saw him first during Harry's Sorting; I think till then, he was imagining Harry mostly as "Lily's son", and what he saw was a small copy of James. He disliked him, and very often he behaved like no teacher should behave towards a student. And, honestly, I don't care very much. I'm not trying to make Snape a saint for myself, I like him as he is. I don't really think that everybody has to like/love/admire Harry; it's quite natural that some people do and others don't. Snape was often wrong about Harry, when comparing him to James - and sometimes he was absolutely right.

I accept the contradictions in Snape's behaviour: he promised to protect and help Harry as Lily's child, and he kept his word even when it meant to risk a horrible death. (Can you imagine what would Voldemort do to him if he was discovered as Dumbledore's spy? :shudder: ) He did it to protect a boy whom he never really liked. For the "greater good", if you want. (And yes, he was mean and nasty to Harry - and what does it change? I can't remember any real harm that resulted from it to Harry. Nasty people happen in everybody's life, why should Harry be spared?)

It's precisely the contradictions that make Snape interesting at my eyes. He's natural, he's human: not a saint, but a lonely, unpleasant, snarky man able to sacrifice his life to the good side.

And the last thing - his behaviour towards Hary can be possibly explained by his background. I doubt Tobias was the kind of father that gently explains things to his kid. Maybe he was just repeating the only pattern he knew.

:relax:

I just thought that the way he acted towards Harry was selfish to a point.

But that does not, imo at least, have anything to do with the selflessness, or selfishness, of his being willing to do ‘anything’ to ensure Lily was protected.

Interesting theories there. Either one of them could make sense.

Personally I think both come into play :)

The latter one (#2) is rather tragic... but it was awesome that he kept her alive in a way in terms of the doe. What a way (keeping any idea of his obsession and what not out of it) to keep a friend alive. To remember their kindness and love towards you.

:agree: Yes that was awesome! Also it seems to reflect the way we, in RL, are often encouraged to the memory of someone alive once they love has died.

We never see her mocking Harry or provoking him and so forcing him to retort impolitely. The thing that -I think- Snape was very good at.

Forcing? :hmm:
Harry is the only one who is responsible for the words that come out of is mouth (ok maybe Voldie too on rare occasions ;)). Severus never forces Harry to retort – that is something he chooses to do and the responsibility lies entirely with him.

Please understand I’m not saying everything Severus said was hunky dory - I am only commenting on the idea that Harry was forced to react a particular way.

For instance, Snape's never ending criticism of Harry's potion making abilities, had negative effects on the latter. Later when Snape is no longer the potions teacher, Harry accepts cheating in the subject. He accepts reputation he didn't deserve.

I don’t thing we can lay the blame for Harry being willing to cheat on Severus Snape.

Harry is often copying off Hermione, or working with Ron on essays that are supposed to be done alone – this is cheating and it is certainly not confined to Potions.

I just don't think it was particularly harmful.

Exactly! Sure he didn’t like it and it annoyed him but where is there any sign of it doing any real damage to him? He seems to grow up into a surprisingly well adjusted young man. :)

Or this one that I think sounds just like Snape talking to Harry:
...
"Then you just buck up your ideas, young man, before I decide you're too immature to come with us!" said Mrs. Weasley angrily, snatching up her clock, all nine hands of which were still pointing at "mortal peril," and balancing it on top of a pile of just-laundered towels. "And that goes for returning to Hogwarts as well!"
I do not think Molly's statement here resembles those of Snape towards Harry. Molly is sternly reproaching her child - I do not detect any mocking or sarcasm in her words. Meanwhile, Snape constantly resorts to bullying, insulting, mocking, and sarcastic comments when talking to Harry.
And I think the main thing that puts Snape's words in perspective is that Harry had already been traumatized as much as possible by the Dursleys:
I agree with eliza101 that the Dursleys' behavior does not excuse Snape's.

Molly is arguing there that Harry is too young to be following in the footsteps of James and Sirius. She is being protective and mentioning Harry's father to make a point.
Yes, Molly mentioned James to make a point, but Snape mentions Harry's father to, as I see it, mock and insult Harry (such as Harry's detentions after Sectumsempra, when Harry felt "the regular jolt in the stomach that meant he had just read his father or Sirius's names" [HBP, Ch. 24, Pg. 532].).
My point is that Snape is hardly the only adult in the books who speaks sternly to Harry. If Snape didn't really care he wouldn't mention James at all. I really thinks he wants to see more of Lily in Harry, and less James, and I don't see what's wrong with that.
Again, I do not think Snape speaks "sternly" to Harry so much as he speaks bullying and insulting to him.

Also, I think, as does Dumbledore, Snape was determined to see James in Harry, given what we see in the Prince's Tale:
"- mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rulebreaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent -"
"You see what you expect to see, Severus," said Dumbledore, without raising his eyes from a copy of Transfiguration Today. "Other teachers report that the boy is modest, likable, and reasonably talented. Personally, I find him an engaging child."
I believe Snape refused to see any likeness of Lily's character in Harry and acted as if Harry and James were almost the same person. To me, that is spiteful and somewhat immature of Snape.
For he never conducted himself as one. We have seen bullies in the Books itself. Dudley Dursley, Piers Polkiss, James Potter (Lily called him an arrogant bullying toerag and Sirius and Remus did not exactly contradict it), Draco Malfoy, and Snape really does not fit the bill IMO.
I am curious why you think James Potter should be considered a bully after he has matured (since he was only viewed as a "bully" until his seventh year, at the most, it seems), yet Severus Snape should not be considered a bully before he redeemed himself? I think that if James is seen as a bully because of his past, should Snape not be seen in the same way? To me, Snape qualifies as a bully (despite his heroic deeds) because of his character in the first books. Not only do I think he is a bully, but he bullied eleven-year-olds (Neville and Harry). Harry notes this about Snape:
Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible to Harry.
If Snape's behavior towards Harry can be described with "torture," I do not see how Snape can be considered anything but a bully (at least in this particular occasion), no matter what good he was trying to do by "helping" Harry.
If, for that he cursed James Potter a few times or called Harry a nasty boy who thought the rules were beneath him, well I really don't care.
I understand that you, personally, do not care of these instances of, as I see them, bullying, but I do not see how these instances can be discarded from Snape's overall character simply because they are not important, in your opinion (I believe this is your perspective; please correct me if I am misinterpreting. :) ).

Personally, I think Snape was a great and brave man for doing all he did to help save Harry and bring about Voldemort's downfall. However, I firmly believe that, whatever his good deeds, he was a bully towards Harry and other students, he was selfish at times, and he was overall not a pleasant person. I do not deny his "good side," but I do not forgive his "bad side."
His method was not by choice, but by circumstance IMO. He needed to be this way, to keep his cover, which makes it very different from "he was this way" or "he wanted to be this way" IMO.
I do not think Snape had to be "so horrible" to Harry that Harry likened his time with Snape as "torture" to be necessary for his role as spy. I think he behaved horribly to Harry because he chose to - he refused to see any of Lily in Harry, and all of his nemesis James.

I don't feel quite as strongly as this, but it has to be admitted that practilcally every time there is a scene of this type in one of the books it is usually accompannied with a decription of Snape that indicates his dislike of Harry. I have always felt that Harry's naming of his son had more to do with Harry's magnaminity than Snape himself. Perhaps Harry simply did not want Snape's name to be forgotton, which could easily have happened. Snape did not exactly endear himself to people.
Yep. And good point there eliza. Maybe that's why he did that. It makes some sense there. I could see something like that happening. And I bet he was the one who fought hard, for his portrait to be put up in Hogwarts (iirc -- since it's been awhile since I read DH).

Once again, somebody said it better than me...and I couldn't agree more. He even had a little review session as he fled the Hogwarts grounds. I'm not sure of the exact quote but it was something like, 'Blocked again, and again, and again, until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed.' The occlumency lessons may have been a disaster but I believe that Severus was trying to teach him discipline and was only partially to blame for that fiasco.
:agree: I definitely agree with you.

I have always felt that Harry's naming of his son had more to do with Harry's magnaminity than Snape himself. Perhaps Harry simply did not want Snape's name to be forgotton, which could easily have happened. Snape did not exactly endear himself to people.
He could have named his child after anyone, including the Weasleys and Neville for instance. To be magnanimous, he could have just put up a plaque in Snape's honor or erected a tombstone.

Naming a child after someone is much more personal than that, in my opinion. Whether Severus was endearing or not, Harry sort of made him part of the family by giving his son that name.

Again, I do not think Snape speaks "sternly" to Harry so much as he speaks bullying and insulting to him.

I think Snape does both, actually. :cool:

There are times when he's not wrong to discipline Harry, although one might question his particular methodology. :yuhup:

Other times, it's just a plain :no: from me, Severus.

I am curious why you think James Potter should be considered a bully after he has matured (since he was only viewed as a "bully" until his seventh year, at the most, it seems), yet Severus Snape should not be considered a bully before he redeemed himself? I think that if James is seen as a bully because of his past, should Snape not be seen in the same way?

Thank you. :tu: My feelings exactly. :cool:

Personally, I think Snape was a great and brave man for doing all he did to help save Harry and bring about Voldemort's downfall. However, I firmly believe that, whatever his good deeds, he was a bully towards Harry and other students, he was selfish at times, and he was overall not a pleasant person. I do not deny his "good side," but I do not forgive his "bad side."

I agree pretty much with this assessment of Snape, who is my favourite character in the Potterverse (the other being Harry). He's a fascinating character -- indeed, he is a character that the author rather wastes, in my opinion :whistle: -- but he is not nice, and I do not see why his behaviour to Harry has to be excused or rationalised. :hmm:

I can forgive Snape's 'bad side' though, just as Harry did ... the revelations in The Prince's Tale made a big difference to me (even though I was fully expecting Snape to be vindicated by Rowling anyway).

I just don't overlook it. :cool:

I do not think Snape had to be "so horrible" to Harry that Harry likened his time with Snape as "torture" to be necessary for his role as spy.

I agree. There is nothing whatsoever in canon to indicate that Snape's meanness to Harry was only ever all part of his act as a spy. :no:

Snape is a passionate man, a man of dark passions. He loved much (Lily) and he hated much (James). So this damaged, courageous, yet (still) deeply immature man can't seem to help himself in taking out his ancient grudge against James on Harry. That is the whole conundrum that JKR sets up: that here is a man dedicated to protecting the son of a man he hated.

I think he behaved horribly to Harry because he chose to - he refused to see any of Lily in Harry, and all of his nemesis James.

That is the most psychologically plausible explanation to me.

It also explains -- and lends great poignancy to -- Dumbledore's comment to Severus (trying to get him to see Harry's true nature, and not the persona he has perversely imposed on Harry) that Harry's 'deeper nature' resembles that of his mother (which is how I see Harry too).

I think Snape does both, actually. :cool:

There are times when he's not wrong to discipline Harry, although one might question his particular methodology. :yuhup:

Other times, it's just a plain :no: from me, Severus.
This sums up my feelings for him as well. I think it's a very fair depiction to say it's a combination of both acting stern and bullying Harry because that's how complicated Severus is. And I think a lot of people are like this. The reasoning and subtext for what we do/say can root from multiple things. I believe it was because of this subtext(s) that Snape's character confused the cr*p out of me and many other fans for 6 years. There was enough evidence to claim that Snape was working to protect Harry, yet he didn't seem to like the boy at all.

I don't approve of the way he treated his students either, and I view it in that way because I wouldn't want my own child or any child to have a teacher like him. But his character is what he is and was written that way for a reason. And it definitely made the story more interesting. :)

And all this helped Harry face LV, how? When is having an abrasive personality an excuse for bullying a child? Who is the adult here?
Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Snape, on the contrary I like the charactor very much, but I cannot shut my eyes to what I see as bad behaviour. I know that other people have different viewpoints but to deny that Snape behaved childishly and in a bullying manner at times with Harry, is in my point of view denying him his story arc. I like the fact that he was this contradictory bundle. IMO

I never claimed it helped Harry face LV, did I? :huh:
My point was that Snape treated everyone the way he treated Harry. I don't really see it as bullying - extremely discourteous and harsh... yes.

Now, I have no idea what Harry's perception was intended to be but if we take Epilogue as canon we are left with two possibilities:

a) Harry didn't see Snape as a bully.
b) Harry knowingly named his child after a bully.

I know which one sounds more realistic to me... ;)

I'm in agreement with you on this one. It's very hard to rationalize a lot of Snape's bad behavior. I think, people are retroactively trying to make Snape seem like a saint after seeing what he did in Deathly Hallows. His bullying of Harry was never about tough love, in my view. He was honor-bound to protect Harry because of his love of Lily, but that doesn't mean his behavior toward him was in good faith. At times, he simply wanted to torment Harry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of the people supporting 'tough love' stance. I actually do believe Snape couldn't stand to look at Harry, even if I don't believe he hated him.

As for sanctifying dear old Severus: it would take away the most interesting aspect of that character IMO - that he was a snarky, demanding, antisocial, spying *insert suitable colorful term here*, yet able to hold on to love and his word, act on compassion and remorse, and end up eulogized as 'probably the bravest man I ever knew' by a man who spent half of his life facing Voldemort.

So... The lack of a halo's fine with me, thanks. :relax:

As for sanctifying dear old Severus: it would take away the most interesting aspect of that character IMO - that he was a snarky, demanding, antisocial, spying *insert suitable colorful term here*, yet able to hold on to love and his word, act on compassion and remorse, and end up eulogized as 'probably the bravest man I ever knew' by a man who spent half of his life facing Voldemort.

Well-said, Daggerstone! :tu: :agree:

To muse further on Snape's personality . . .

Snape had alot of layers to him, some of them contradictory and rough. He had hidden fortifications in his personality to protect himself. I think that's the symbolism of the "Nettle Wine" in Snape's logic puzzle in book one, and the nettles growing up around the sign about the Potter's deaths in Godric's Hollow.

A nettle is a thorny plant, a weed that no one wants growing in the yard because it can be hurtful. But it can also be purified over time to create something better out of itself - like nettle wine, which is also a potion that can "lead" Harry to the Philosopher's Stone. Interestingly, that also leads Harry to a truth about Snape - he isn't behind the door and Voldemort is the real villain after all. And Snape's riddle is true - "Danger lies before you, While safety lies behind." Snape's riddle was meant to keep Harry out of danger, not lead him into it. Thorns are sort of like barbed wire - they are a protective mechanism of plant life.

It's a fact that Harry forgets much too soon that Snape was not the bad guy in PS/SS, and he is back to seeing the nettle thorns in the following books instead of the purified wine.

When Harry takes the vial of memories from Snape in DH, once again he is using a sort of potion to find out a new revelation about Snape. And once again, there are nettling truths that he doesn't want to see, but also alot of beauty which he tells Voldemort about at length because he has realized that Snape loved his mother.

And the main thing he learns is that Snape has changed from one type of person into another type of person entirely. From the nettle to the wine. Yes Snape had thorny problems and he could still be nettlesome (like JKR's own chemistry teacher John Nettleship, who was actually never thrown out of school as a teacher in spite of the fact that JKR didn't like his methods :evil: ), but Harry forgave him over time because of his intentions, which were fundamentally protective and good, in my opinion.

There's also something really appealing about nettle wine, because as I say, it is made from one of the worst weeds in the world, yet Snape transforms it into something else. It's not like regular wine made from grapes, but is something the peasants made in the Middle Ages - and people make it today - because they were poor. It's not something fancy or something Slughorn would have around to impress people - such as Mead made from honey. It's plain and simple, and I think as Harry grew older he would appreciate that about Snape.

Just my opinion.

Oooo....Nettles again? I love that symbology!

It's used by JKR again in GoF (I think? could be a different book? OotP?) When Harry gets back a potions paper with a great big 'spiky D' for a grade. D's are very rarely 'spikey', by the nature of the way the letter is made it is rounded. The exception? Runes. A class taught at Hogwarts. A class of 'magic', not merely a class teaching kids to write in the old futhark alphabet.

Now, in reality runes were really just another alphabet variation, however, since JKR was using them as a form of magic, I think she would have made sure which runes are supposed to mean what it today's forms of divination. Runes are used now for a similar divination to the tarot cards. Instead of cards, you throw blocks of wood (or bone or stone) engraved with a runic symbol. From the runes that appear (and their position) one is supposed to divine. Alternatively, they are also supposedly used in the present to form spells, by those who consider themselves to be 'witches'.

In Elder Futhark, the 'spikey D' would be the Thurisaz Rune also known as the 'thorn' rune. It is supposed to be a powerful rune indicating protection. And often protection that rankles and pricks. If THAT doesn't fit Snape's protection of Harry to a 'T' then I have no idea what does!

I just love the 'nettles' and 'thorn' symbols associated with Snape! It is so terribly appropriate. One of JKRs best gems of symbology! Nettles and Thorns - both very 'prickly'. But one is for Healing and one for Protection. Very Snape!

For more info see this site that purports to be about paganist witchcraft: http://www.bewitchingways.com/runes/thurisaz.htm

I find the description of what the Thurisaz rune says about the 'querent' (the questioner) in divination to also be spot on. However, that's really more for a thread on Harry, so I don't think it should be discussed here. But you can follow the link if curious.

I never claimed it helped Harry face LV, did I? :huh:
My point was that Snape treated everyone the way he treated Harry. I don't really see it as bullying - extremely discourteous and harsh... yes.

Now, I have no idea what Harry's perception was intended to be but if we take Epilogue as canon we are left with two possibilities:

a) Harry didn't see Snape as a bully.
b) Harry knowingly named his child after a bully.

I know which one sounds more realistic to me... ;)
Whichever one you picked, I would still argue that b. is just as realistic as a. I'm of the opinion that Harry also saw Snape as a bully, but that doesn't get in the way of why Harry chose to name his son after Snape. I think's Snape efforts and dedication are meant to be recognized and honored, which is why it's done through Albus Severus. I think Harry as a character knew that as well, or else he wouldn't have defended and acknowledged Snape so much in his final fight with Voldy.

Honestly, being that the name is Severus is given to the boy with the green eyes, I always found it as way of not only honoring Snape but in some way joining him with Lily. At least symbolically. That was probably the closest this character would have gotten to be with the one he loved again, which I think is what Snape really wanted. Another reason why I think this was a great act of honor for this character.

In Elder Futhark, the 'spikey D' would be the Thurisaz Rune also known as the 'thorn' rune. It is supposed to be a powerful rune indicating protection. And often protection that rankles and pricks. If THAT doesn't fit Snape's protection of Harry to a 'T' then I have no idea what does!

I just love the 'nettles' and 'thorn' symbols associated with Snape! It is so terribly appropriate. One of JKRs best gems of symbology! Nettles and Thorns - both very 'prickly'. But one is for Healing and one for Protection. Very Snape!

Yes, I love the symbolism, too. :love:

Here's the passage about Snape's Spiky "D."

But Professor Umbridge was not inspecting their History of Magic lesson, which was just as dull as the previous Monday, nor was she in Snape's dungeon when they arrived for double Potions, where Harry's moonstone essay was handed back to him with a large, spiky black D scrawled in an upper corner.

A Pointy D definitely looks like a thorn. :) And Snape would certainly know his magical runes, surely!

That is from the same chapter in which Harry imagines drowning Snape in his cauldron ~ which is like cooking nettles, you could say.

"Oh, I dunno..." said Harry desperately, who could not remember dreaming anything at all over the last few days. "Let's say I dreamed I was...drowning Snape in my cauldron. Yeah, that'll do..."

Ron chortled as he opened his Dream Oracle.

"Okay, we've got to add your age to the date you had the dream, the number of letters in the subject...would that be 'drowning’ or 'cauldron' or 'Snape'?

Eliza: It's true - I don't see Snape as cruel and abusive like the Dursleys. Many times Harry is in trouble because of Harry, and not because of Snape.

How about this quote from Molly, OotP, Chapter 5:

"What's wrong Harry is that you are not your father, however much you might look like him!" said Mrs. Weasley, her eyes still boring into Sirius. "You are still at school and adults responsible for you should not forget that."

Molly is arguing there that Harry is too young to be following in the footsteps of James and Sirius. She is being protective and mentioning Harry's father to make a point.

My point is that Snape is hardly the only adult in the books who speaks sternly to Harry. If Snape didn't really care he wouldn't mention James at all. I really thinks he wants to see more of Lily in Harry, and less James, and I don't see what's wrong with that.

My point is that Snape should not have mentioned Harry's father in the first place. and Molly may be speaking sternly to Harry, but she is not insulting Harry's father, a man who would probably have agreed with her if he had been present. It is not that Snape speaks harshly to Harry that I disagree with. Harry did deserve to be reprimanded but his long dead father should not have been mentioned.

I am curious why you think James Potter should be considered a bully after he has matured (since he was only viewed as a "bully" until his seventh year, at the most, it seems), yet Severus Snape should not be considered a bully before he redeemed himself? I think that if James is seen as a bully because of his past, should Snape not be seen in the same way? To me, Snape qualifies as a bully (despite his heroic deeds) because of his character in the first books. Not only do I think he is a bully, but he bullied eleven-year-olds (Neville and Harry). Harry notes this about Snape:
Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape was so horrible to Harry.
If Snape's behavior towards Harry can be described with "torture," I do not see how Snape can be considered anything but a bully (at least in this particular occasion), no matter what good he was trying to do by "helping" Harry.

Will answer in the James POtter thread. :)

I understand that you, personally, do not care of these instances of, as I see them, bullying, but I do not see how these instances can be discarded from Snape's overall character simply because they are not important, in your opinion (I believe this is your perspective; please correct me if I am misinterpreting. :) ).

1) JKR called him a bully more times than canon characters, and I disagree with her. :D

2) Snape was not just a teacher and I feel seeing his actions only as a teacher is unfair to him, for it does not do justice to his character as a whole. It is not as if we know he was cruel and a bully and harsh when he was not a spy and a teacher. When he was a student, Lily interestingly does not call him a bully, but James; so there is canon that Snape was not a bully in School, in his younger days. In Hogwarts, he was not merely a teacher but something else too. For almost 18 years since the time Snape came to meet Dumbledore on the hill, he was playing a part, of which the teacher part was ancillary to the main part which was his build up to convince Voldemort, wherever he met the Dark Lord.

3) It is also canon that Voldemort mind raped him through Legilimency to view 16 years of memories to see if Snape was a traitor to the death eaters or not and it is also canon that Legilimency involves not only memories but also feelings to go along with them.

4) What I've given above is all canon and I don't think I am over looking, condoning or rationalising Snape's actions in any way. I merely feel to see one aspect of Snape, while ignoring his most important role as that of a spy and also ignoring the terror Voldemort could do to him, if Snape slipped just a little bit; if his memories and feelings were just a point off, is not okay with me; for then, I am seeing only one side of Snape and the judging him. His teaching was secondary to his other work and that was the more important job; that was the job he needed to be perfect in and for that he needed to show perfect memories and emotions, regarding his interactions at Hogwarts. Which is what I think he did.

In that job, if he needed to take away points; to show the Slytherin DE kids that he thought Gryffindors were nuts, call Harry and Neville dunderheads or whatever, bad mouth James to get the emotions to go along with the memories of taking away points and being sarcastic to Harry, then I think he needed to do it.

For it is canon he was checked, before re- admitted to the DEs and it was these memories that kept him alive to do his spy job to help Harry in the war.

Should I call him a bully for that and say that 'Yeah! so what if he was a spy and so what if Voldemort checked him. He needed to be like Dumbledore or McGonagall' for me to say he was not a bully; I will not. For McGonagall and Dumbledore need not accumulate memories for 16 years and keep them intact for inspection; they need not face Voldemort time and again and smile when Charity Burbage was killed and toast to Sirius's death and plot with Voldemort for Harry Potters death, when in reality Snape was working to bring Voldemort down and help Harry win.

I think it is the difference between seeing him only as a teacher and seeing him as a person who had additional jobs along with the teaching at the same time 24/7 for 14-15 years and then walking back to Voldemort, showing him those 14 years worth of memories, convincing him and and start working for what he and Dumbeldore had been waiting for, for all these years.

I don't think Snape was a bully in any way. As Dags said, anti-social; sarcastic, strict, harsh even and snarky, sure!

Cruel, stunted emotional growth, bully and nasty dark person; not for me. :)

Personally, I think Snape was a great and brave man for doing all he did to help save Harry and bring about Voldemort's downfall. However, I firmly believe that, whatever his good deeds, he was a bully towards Harry and other students, he was selfish at times, and he was overall not a pleasant person. I do not deny his "good side," but I do not forgive his "bad side."

Where is his 'bad side' shown in canon do you think; a bad side without the over hanging of his spy work? Where do we see Snape free of his other job? I think if we see Snape as completely free of his job and then analyse him as a teacher then that is completely different. But to see only side of him, when that side was totally entwined and dependent on his other work, how do we judge them for one aspect alone?

I don't think I can. I would be interested to know how you will. :)

I would like to ask a few a questions here, if anyone is interested to answer. :)

How do you think Snape could be different to Harry and still face Voldemort with those memories?

How do you think Snape should react if Voldemort asks Snape to bring Harry or one of his friends to him, using the trust Snape had with them, by behaving in a kind manner to them over the years?

If Snape was unable to go back to Voldemort, because his memories would not stand scrutiny as he had struck a rapport with Harry and showed himself to be a muggleborn liking kind of a guy, who would do the work Snape did?

If Snape was not there as a spy, why was he even there as a teacher, for I think Dumbledore hired him for his other work and Snape himself applied because Voldemort told him to and not because he wanted to teach.

I do not think Snape had to be "so horrible" to Harry that Harry likened his time with Snape as "torture" to be necessary for his role as spy. I think he behaved horribly to Harry because he chose to - he refused to see any of Lily in Harry, and all of his nemesis James.

What should Snape have done if Voldemort asked Snape to bring Harry to him? Because Snape was very nice and kind to Harry.

As for sanctifying dear old Severus: it would take away the most interesting aspect of that character IMO - that he was a snarky, demanding, antisocial, spying *insert suitable colorful term here*, yet able to hold on to love and his word, act on compassion and remorse, and end up eulogized as 'probably the bravest man I ever knew' by a man who spent half of his life facing Voldemort.

:agree: :clap:

As for sanctifying dear old Severus: it would take away the most interesting aspect of that character IMO - that he was a snarky, demanding, antisocial, spying *insert suitable colorful term here*, yet able to hold on to love and his word, act on compassion and remorse, and end up eulogized as 'probably the bravest man I ever knew' by a man who spent half of his life facing Voldemort.

So... The lack of a halo's fine with me, thanks. :relax:

Me too. :cool: :tu:

I think it is the difference between seeing him only as a teacher and seeing him as a person who had additional jobs along with the teaching at the same time 24/7 for 14-15 years and then walking back to Voldemort, showing him those 14 years worth of memories, convincing him and and start working for what he and Dumbeldore had been waiting for, for all these years.

No, it isn't. :) When I call Snape on his bullying of Harry, I am not simplifying his character, neither am I necessarily 'judging' him ... my final opinion on Snape is the same as Harry's. :cool:

I am merely stating my opinion on what is there before me in the text ... not 'sanctifying dear old Severus' and giving him a halo. :whistle:

Snape tends to be harsh with most of his pupils but he can be especially bitter towards Harry. We have his words right there in canon -- sometimes spoken to Harry in private, not in front of the whole class. That is not an act, IMO.

It is perfectly possible to like Snape as a character, applaud his bravery as a spy, acknowledge that he did act to protect Harry and disapprove of his bitter words and actions to Harry at times. I fail to see why this is such a sticking point. :) Snape's bitter attitude to Harry is not the last word on Snape's character (Harry certainly didn't seem to feel that it was :) ) ... but I don't particularly want to gloss over it, because Snape is a bundle of things ... some good, some bad.

I would like to ask a few a questions here, if anyone is interested to answer. :)

These are easily answered, IMO, because Snape is an extremely clever man. :cool:

How do you think Snape could be different to Harry and still face Voldemort with those memories?

This is like Bella quizzing Snape on why Harry was still alive when he'd had him at his mercy for five years. Look at the skill with which Snape answers her. It's the same skill he would employ if Voldemort grilled him about Harry, if he had been nice to Harry.

After all, Snape the spy could have used being nice to Harry as the perfect ploy to get the child to trust him ... if Snape the spy had been truly evil and wanting to get Harry into Voldemort's clutches. This argument can be used either way.

Also, Snape is a superb Occlumens. He can block Voldemort's mind-probing. At great cost to himself, I don't doubt. :sigh: His job as a spy was difficult and dangerous.

But being nice to Harry ... oh, I am sure he could have justified that to Voldemort, just as he justified Harry still being alive to Bella. :cool:

How do you think Snape should react if Voldemort asks Snape to bring Harry or one of his friends to him, using the trust Snape had with them, by behaving in a kind manner to them over the years?

I am sure he could have thought of something ... :D Gaining the trust of the young Gryffindors would be a perfect way to betray them, after all. If Snape had been that kind of man, which obviously he wasn't.

If Snape was unable to go back to Voldemort, because his memories would not stand scrutiny as he had struck a rapport with Harry and showed himself to be a muggleborn liking kind of a guy, who would do the work Snape did?

As I have said, I am convinced that Snape could have used a rapport with Harry in order to pull the wool over Voldemort's eyes.

If Snape was not there as a spy, why was he even there as a teacher, for I think Dumbledore hired him for his other work and Snape himself applied because Voldemort told him to and not because he wanted to teach.

I think it's obvious that Snape didn't like kids very much ... :whistle: :lol:

What should Snape have done if Voldemort asked Snape to bring Harry to him? Because Snape was very nice and kind to Harry.

If Snape had got Harry to trust him, I believe that would have been a piece of cake for him, in his spying capacity, I mean.

Re: his behaviour to Harry, what we see there is genuine emotion. Snape cannot stand to see James in Harry, for reasons that are, IMO, somewhat complex. But the emotion is genuine, not faked, IMO.

Sure, it may serve him in his role as spy, to hate James Potter's kid. :cool: But he could have used positive behaviour towards Harry in a duplicitious and treacherous way ... if he had been a different kind of man. :cool:

Now, I have no idea what Harry's perception was intended to be but if we take Epilogue as canon we are left with two possibilities:

a) Harry didn't see Snape as a bully.
b) Harry knowingly named his child after a bully.

I know which one sounds more realistic to me... ;)


I think there's another possibility, which -to me- sounds more realistic than the two above:)

c) Snape was a bully, while Harry was forgiving and grateful. Snape's sacrifice was enough for him to forget Snape's harshness toward him as a child.

3) It is also canon that Voldemort mind raped him through Legilimency to view 16 years of memories to see if Snape was a traitor to the death eaters or not and it is also canon that Legilimency involves not only memories but also feelings to go along with them.


In that job, if he needed to take away points; to show the Slytherin DE kids that he thought Gryffindors were nuts, call Harry and Neville dunderheads or whatever, bad mouth James to get the emotions to go along with the memories of taking away points and being sarcastic to Harry, then I think he needed to do it.


For it is canon he was checked, before re- admitted to the DEs and it was these memories that kept him alive to do his spy job to help Harry in the war.


How do you think Snape could be different to Harry and still face Voldemort with those memories?

How do you think Snape should react if Voldemort asks Snape to bring Harry or one of his friends to him, using the trust Snape had with them, by behaving in a kind manner to them over the years?



As Pearl_Took pointed out Snape was a good Occlumence. Which is the reason Dumbledore chooses him for teaching Harry in OOTP. I believe he could hide those memories from Voldemort if he wanted to.

Also Snape seemed very good at hiding memories he didn't want other people to see through Legilimency. In OOTP, before each lesson with Harry, Snape removed memories he didn't want Harry to see, in the pensieve. Pensieves I believe, are very valuable and probably expensive magical tools. Dumbledore and Snape were the only two owned pensieves in the book. So, imo Snape used this pensieve to hide those memories he didn't want Voldemort see through his mind. He had important things to hide. Things far more crucial than taking a few points from kids or calling them idiots or whatever he did. He needed to hide for instance, the night he went to Dumbledore and begged him to save Lily. He needed to hide the incident in Dumbledore's office after the Potters' death. And most of the memories of adult Snape in TPT.

So IMO, he could've treated Harry and his friends well or at least normally. And then, hide those memories away when going down to Voldemort. I think this was an easy thing to do, that's if Snape had ever considered being nice to the kids.

For McGonagall and Dumbledore need not accumulate memories for 16 years and keep them intact for inspection; they need not face Voldemort time and again and smile when Charity Burbage was killed and toast to Sirius's death and plot with Voldemort for Harry Potters death, when in reality Snape was working to bring Voldemort down and help Harry win.

I'd like to say something about that. IMO, Snape never liked being on the good side so much. That -to me- was so clear. Yet he had to be on the good side to repair his mistake, to revenge Lily's death, and fulfill his promise to help her son. But other than that, I think he was still fond of his past, imo. He couldn't quite forget it. He hated Sirius when young, and he held tight to that feeling. In OOTP at Sirius's place, it was very clear that both of them loathed each other deeply. Also from Snape's comments on Sirius in HBP it makes it very believable that he still hated Sirius and James deeply, no matter which side he was on. I'd say that he was glad to see them gone, imo. Which makes me think that any comment about the marauders was coming from the depths of his heart and not simply an 'act' to convince Voldemort and other DEs of his identity, imo.

c) Snape was a bully, while Harry was forgiving and grateful.

That's a rather determinate statement you are making there... :huh:

I was referring to Harry's interpretation of Snape's behaviour in my options, and I do believe I've covered the possibility of him regarding Snape as a bully in option b.

Snape's sacrifice was enough for him to forget Snape's harshness toward him as a child.

But there is a difference between harshness and bullying, so I actually agree with you here. :tu:

So IMO, he could've treated Harry and his friends well or at least normally.

The point I'm trying to make is that he did treat Harry and his friends 'normally'. Normally for him, that is.

I'd like to say something about that. IMO, Snape never liked being on the good side so much.

Considering what 'being on the good side' implied, can you really blame the man? :lol:

He wasn't asked to join the Order and forsake Voldemort. He was asked to 'be on the good side' by continuing to serve Voldemort.

But other than that, I think he was still fond of his past, imo. He couldn't quite forget it.

I don't see why he wouldn't be - it's in his past that Lily was.

He hated Sirius when young, and he held tight to that feeling. In OOTP at Sirius's place, it was very clear that both of them loathed each other deeply. Also from Snape's comments on Sirius in HBP it makes it very believable that he still hated Sirius and James deeply, no matter which side he was on.

'Each other' being the operative term here... no matter which side they were both on.

Sirius knew Snape was working for the Order.

Which makes me think that any comment about the marauders was coming from the depths of his heart and not simply an 'act' to convince Voldemort and other DEs of his identity, imo.

There I do agree with you. What we are shown of his experiences with them (,'Snivellus', Levicorpus, the Shrieking Shack incident) supports the theory of a lifelong grudge.

After all, we don't see Harry running into Draco's arms in the epilogue either... do we?

I don't see why he wouldn't be - it's in his past that Lily was.

Actually I was referring to him being a DE. I think he enjoyed this very much. Snape was never a popular or even a social person. IMO, he loved being in Voldemort's inner circle. For once in his life, he was looked up to by other DEs. And from the looks of it Bellatrix was jealous of him because Voldemort favoured him. Also judging by his enthusiasm in delivering the prophecy to Voldemort, I think he was keen on getting even better and closer to Voldemort. So I think being a DE was the brief period of his life that he enjoyed. And despite his love to Lily and the sacrifices this love entailed, imo, he still had secret passion to the Dark Side. The same love to that side, that made him choose Voldemort and his fellow DEs over Lily when she was alive.


Sirius knew Snape was working for the Order.


I really doubt that. Sirius hints heavily down in that kitchen (OOTP), that he doesn't trust Snape. So, IMO he only took Dumbledore's word for it like many others, without being truley convinced with Dumbledore's words, imo.

Actually I was referring to him being a DE. I think he enjoyed this very much. Snape was never a popular or even a social person. IMO, he loved being in Voldemort's inner circle. For once in his life, he was looked up to by other DEs. And from the looks of it Bellatrix was jealous of him because Voldemort favoured him. Also judging by his enthusiasm in delivering the prophecy to Voldemort, I think he was keen on getting even better and closer to Voldemort. So I think being a DE was the brief period of his life that he enjoyed.

I do respect your opinion on this, but I would really appreciate seeing some canon proof to back it up with...

We don't get anything on Snape's days as a young DE except for the fact he delivered the prophecy. And his DE membership in VWII is hardly considered 'his past' in the series' time line - which is when the 'inner circle' and 'Bellatrix jealous' come in.

And despite his love to Lily and the sacrifices this love entailed, imo, he still had secret passion to the Dark Side.

Please explain what you mean by 'the Dark Side' - I would hate to waste a good argument on a misunderstood reference.

The same love to that side, that made him choose Voldemort and his fellow DEs over Lily when she was alive.

Again, please explain which incident you are referring to, as I can't recall any situation in which Snape chose Voldemort over Lily. Ever.


I really doubt that. Sirius hints heavily down in that kitchen (OOTP), that he doesn't trust Snape. So, IMO he only took Dumbledore's word for it like many others, without being truley convinced with Dumbledore's words, imo.

'That kitchen' was the Headquarters.

And whether or not Sirius believed it doesn't change the fact that Dumbledore did give his word for it.

Actually I was referring to him being a DE. I think he enjoyed this very much. Snape was never a popular or even a social person. IMO, he loved being in Voldemort's inner circle.

I completely agree. Being socially accepted, no matter how abhorrent the social group, is always a better feeling that being a complete outcast. You notice in SWM that he walks alone and sits alone. I got the feeling that it wasn't a new experience for him. But just because you once found 'friendship' with a certain group does not mean you haven't moved past that group's ideals. It would be hard to exist so close to DD and not be influenced by him.
A fondness for his old days, old ways? I don't think so. A certain amount of residual mannerisms and attitudes, that I will buy.

Do I think he liked Sirius? NO!!! Like soldiers in the field, you can be on the same side, hold the same ideals, be working for the same cause... and still completely loath some of the men on whose side you fight. Did severus and Sirius like each other? Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean that Severus wanted to high-five Bella after Sirius went through the Veil. Sad to see him go? Perhaps not. Happy? I don't think so either. IMO!!

I think being a DE was the brief period of his life that he enjoyed. And despite his love to Lily and the sacrifices this love entailed, imo, he still had secret passion to the Dark Side.

To this I would stress your word 'had' and leave out 'still'. Just as James Potter was probably not an 'arrogant bullying toerag' at the time of his death, Severus wasn't a former Death Eater with fond feelings towards that life. I think he knew what he was and what he had been previously and they were different. Fondness, no, but I think he owned his past. He made no excuses. Again, IMO.

I do respect your opinion on this, but I would really appreciate seeing some canon proof to back it up with...


Please explain what you mean by 'the Dark Side' - I would hate to waste a good argument on a misunderstood reference.

This is purely speculation. Based on how Snape spoke of the Dark Arts on his first lesson as a DADA teacher. Also based on Bellatrix's treatment to Snape in Spinner's End. I interpreted her behaviour as jealousy. And I believe she was jealous from Snape since the first war. Jealous from the rank he had in the DE's circle.

By the Dark side I meant the days he spent as a DE on Voldemort's side. Without Lily's death heavy on his conscience.

But again that's my own speculation and opinion :)

Again, please explain which incident you are referring to, as I can't recall any situation in which Snape chose Voldemort over Lily. Ever.


"...thought we were supposed to be friends?" Snape was saying, "Best friends?"

"We are Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging round with, I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev, he's creepy. D' you know what he tried to do to Mary MacDonald the other day?

"I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here."

"I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just-"

"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends- you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-know-who, can you?"

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way. I've chosen mine."

In the first incident Lily makes it clear that she doesn't approve of Snape's friends. In the second, he's still hanging around with those friends. He doesn't deny his ambition to become a DE and join Voldemort. To me this means he chose them over her :).

And further discussion on this, I think should go in Lily and Snape's thread :)

As Pearl_Took pointed out Snape was a good Occlumence. Which is the reason Dumbledore chooses him for teaching Harry in OOTP. I believe he could hide those memories from Voldemort if he wanted to.

And Voldemort will not question the gaps? Foolish as I think Voldemort was in the last Book, I think he would want proof that Snape was his man, and I am pretty sure he will not accept Snape, if he finds gaps in his memories. JMHO.

So IMO, he could've treated Harry and his friends well or at least normally. And then, hide those memories away when going down to Voldemort. I think this was an easy thing to do, that's if Snape had ever considered being nice to the kids.

And how will Snape explain his hate, when the other DE kids tell their fathers and through them Voldemort, that Snape was nice and kind to Harry; that he never was in any way antagonistic towards the BWL?

Voldemort will either kill Snape for cheating him with false memories (this is assuming Voldemort will not suspect the false memories in the first place) and/or ask Snape to bring Harry to him as a show of loyalty. How do you think Snape will handle this?

I fail to see why this is such a sticking point. :)

Because I don't see Snape as a bully from my understanding of canon and tend to disagree with those who do.

Look at the skill with which Snape answers her. It's the same skill he would employ if Voldemort grilled him about Harry, if he had been nice to Harry.

Yes; he answers Bellatrix beautifully. How will he answer Voldemort? He would need to keep his mind open to Voldemort, for him to check his loyalty, with the memories and the feelings matching each other. He cannot have mismatched memories to emotions. That would not contradict the lie IMO. And the memories of his taking away points and talking nasty to harry must also be accompanied by emotions to match the visuals. And I think his comments about James Potter brought forth genuine anger, to match the memories.

After all, Snape the spy could have used being nice to Harry as the perfect ploy to get the child to trust him ... if Snape the spy had been truly evil and wanting to get Harry into Voldemort's clutches. This argument can be used either way.

That is what Voldemort would have preferred IMO. To have Snape acting pleasantly, so that he could ask Snape to bring Harry to him. But Snape IMO side stepped it with making himself disagreeable to Harry using his hatred of James and thereby thwarting Voldemort's plans in that corner, if he had any IMO.

Also, Snape is a superb Occlumens. He can block Voldemort's mind-probing. At great cost to himself, I don't doubt. :sigh: His job as a spy was difficult and dangerous.

I think he would have died, had he blocked Voldemort's mind probing IMO.

But being nice to Harry ... oh, I am sure he could have justified that to Voldemort, just as he justified Harry still being alive to Bella. :cool:

How?

If Voldemort asked him to use that kindness to bring Harry to him, Snape would have no answers IMO and he would need to stop his work (assuming he was alive) and Harry and the Order would have suffered IMO.


I am sure he could have thought of something ... :D Gaining the trust of the young Gryffindors would be a perfect way to betray them, after all. If Snape had been that kind of man, which obviously he wasn't.

What would Snape do, when Voldemort actually asks him to betray the Gryffindors?

I think it's obvious that Snape didn't like kids very much ... :whistle: :lol:

On the contrary, I think he would make a good parent. :)

Re: his behaviour to Harry, what we see there is genuine emotion. Snape cannot stand to see James in Harry, for reasons that are, IMO, somewhat complex. But the emotion is genuine, not faked, IMO.

That emotion is for James, which is IMO very genuine. For Harry, I am not very sure. Snape let go a lot of things where Harry was concerned IMO.

Sure, it may serve him in his role as spy, to hate James Potter's kid. :cool: But he could have used positive behaviour towards Harry in a duplicitious and treacherous way ... if he had been a different kind of man. :cool:

Sure! I would just like to know how? :)

This is purely speculation. Based on how Snape spoke of the Dark Arts on his first lesson as a DADA teacher.

How did he speak of them? He warned the students against underestimating thm, which I thought was wise of him. He explained just how serious an enemy they are. He was telling them they should be alert because what they could face would not alwasy be something they are trained to fight in class, as the Dark Arts are unpredictable and elusive. Which is why Hermione compared Snape's speech to Harry's when he was explaining what it's like facing Voldemort.

Also based on Bellatrix's treatment to Snape in Spinner's End. I interpreted her behaviour as jealousy.

I interpreted it as wits. She was smart enough not to be fooled by Severus, and in fact her suspicions were the firt clue which made me think Snape was Dumbledore's man - I saw the Dark Side's most faithful's mistrust as a textual clue to his real loyalties.

Bella is in fact the only smart Death Eater from what I can see in the books - no wonder she's frustrated with everyone's supposed fawning over Snape as if he's the DE's hero, when she can see his behaviour has been more than a little suspicious.

Yes; he answers Bellatrix beautifully. How will he answer Voldemort? He would need to keep his mind open to Voldemort, for him to check his loyalty, with the memories and the feelings matching each other. He cannot have mismatched memories to emotions. That would not contradict the lie IMO. And the memories of his taking away points and talking nasty to harry must also be accompanied by emotions to match the visuals. And I think his comments about James Potter brought forth genuine anger, to match the memories.

OK, so that means he would be Occluding Voldemort from seeing the genuine feelings of care he had for Harry, underneath his anger at James (the James he sometimes sees in Harry). :cool: In which case, his harsh words to Harry are still completely mismatched with the real emotions he feels underneath. :hmm: Are you saying these feelings of caring for Harry are so deeply buried that Voldemort would be unable to detect them?

That is what Voldemort would have preferred IMO. To have Snape acting pleasantly, so that he could ask Snape to bring Harry to him. But Snape IMO side stepped it with making himself disagreeable to Harry using his hatred of James and thereby thwarting Voldemort's plans in that corner, if he had any IMO.

OK ... it's a good theory. :tu:

Personally Snape's emotions towards Harry seem a little too raw for me to think they are entirely faked. :cool:

I think he would have died, had he blocked Voldemort's mind probing IMO.

You mean that Voldemort would have known Snape was blocking him and would have killed him as a punishment if he suspected Snape was deceiving him? I have to wonder: if a Legilimens can detect when a very experienced Occlumens is blocking them, what, then, is the use of being a highly accomplished Occlumens? :hmm:

If Voldemort asked him to use that kindness to bring Harry to him, Snape would have no answers IMO and he would need to stop his work (assuming he was alive) and Harry and the Order would have suffered IMO.

OK, right, I follow you.

I am still not convinced, however, that Snape's bitterness towards Harry was just an act and not also genuine, so we will have to agree to disagree on that.

On the contrary, I think he would make a good parent. :)

I never see Snape as a parent. Ever. Not Canon Snape, not my favourite versions of Fanon Snape. I like his role as Harry's protector :tu: but I don't see physical parenthood as part of Snape's makeup at all. And, personally, I prefer him that way (since not everyone becomes a parent). Just my own take on Snape analysis. :)

That emotion is for James, which is IMO very genuine. For Harry, I am not very sure. Snape let go a lot of things where Harry was concerned IMO.

Sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't. :cool:

Sure! I would just like to know how? :)

My argument was that if Snape had been truly evil -- which he certainly wasn't -- then being nice to Harry would have been a good way to earn the child's trust to his own dark advantage.

I just want to say that the debate in this thread is AWESOME!!!
I'm glad I came back to CoS Forums after all this time. I was too young (for me) to really understand things to this depth before anyway but now my HP light has been flicked back on and I am inspired once more.
Thanks to all of you...whether I agree with you or not.

But just because you once found 'friendship' with a certain group does not mean you haven't moved past that group's ideals. It would be hard to exist so close to DD and not be influenced by him.

Yes, and I think it is made pretty clear just how much influence Dumbledore has had on Severus over the years.

'I got the idea of poisoning the mead rom the Mudblood Granger, as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognising potions...'
Please do not use that offensive word infront of me,' said Dumbledore.

And Snape stood again in the Headmaster's study as Phineas Nigellus came hurrying into his portrait.
'Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood -'
'Do not use that word!'

OK, so that means he would be Occluding Voldemort from seeing the genuine feelings of care he had for Harry, underneath his anger at James (the James he sometimes sees in Harry). :cool:

I do think Snape felt jealous that Harry was James and Lily's. I am quite sure he did not want that to happen. I am quite sure Snape was jealous like mad Lily preferred his worst enemy who removed his underpants and humiliated him on a pretty regular basis to himself. But hate Harry? Be vindictive to him, just because he could? Be mean and nasty to Harry because it made Snape happy? I don't think so. :)

I do think he came to care for Harry. I think it shows very early too, when Snape did not throw the Map in POA into the fire when it insulted him, when he would have read what the Map did and whose it was from Harry's mind, that he knew to call for Lupin. Perhaps Snape cared for Harry even earlier.

I don't think Snape hated Harry. He could get angry, impatient and sarcastic with Harry; yes. He was nasty and rude and talked badly about Harry's father; yes he needed to for the feelings/emotions that his memories needed IMO. But I don't think he hated Harry.

You mean that Voldemort would have known Snape was blocking him and would have killed him as a punishment if he suspected Snape was deceiving him?

Yes; I believe Voldemort would have known if Snape was blocking the memories and would have killed him.

In which case, his harsh words to Harry are still completely mismatched with the real emotions he feels underneath. :hmm: Are you saying these feelings of caring for Harry are so deeply buried that Voldemort would be unable to detect them?

I have to wonder: if a Legillimens can detect when a very experienced Occlumens is blocking them, what, then, is the use of being a highly accomplished Occlumens? :hmm:

Occlumency/Legilimency is defined in the books (OOTP) as this.

'What's that? Sir?'

'It's the ability to extract feelings and memories from another's mind -'

.......

'The mind is a complex and many layered thing, Potter, - or at least most minds are.' He smirked. 'It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly. The DL for instance, almost always knows when someone is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection.'

A highly accomplished Occlumens can fix the memories and emotions which are not true.

I see it like this.

Snape's loyalties, his real work for Dumbledore and his personal feelings are the ones to be concealed at any cost, perhaps by removing them or ensuring that Voldemort never gets near them by concealing them with a lot of other stuff. The other stuff needs to be memories that actually happened and emotions to match those memories. Memories about his work with Dumbledore, his interactions with Harry, muggleborns and everything.

So, I think, there are memories that are completely hidden; perhaps they may even be removed and, there are memories that are for show as it were, with emotions to match, which assure Voldemort that what he is seeing is true and that Snape was his man.

For that Snape needed to have actual memories of Harry, Dumbledore and others, maybe muggleborns or Gryffindors and he will treat each of them in a way that will convince Voldemort and yet not harm them. Dumbledore would be the easiest IMO; Voldemort would not ask Snape to bring Dumbledore to him or anything like that.

The Gryffindors and muggleborns would be treated with disdain and rudely, so that Snape was right up there with the Pureblood agenda. I presume Snape will use his emotions of disdain or whatever he feels towards the DE agenda and match them to the memories where he is talking down Neville or Hermione. That way Snape is seen as a git and really no one will ever trust Snape to go with him to Voldemort.

Harry was the BWL. The boy who destroyed Voldemort and kept him as nothing for 13 years.

Snape needed to show Voldemort that he disliked Harry. While the nasty words and detentions would be in the memories; the visuals; the emotions would also be needed to fool Voldemort. Emotions of hate, which Voldemort would check. If Snape did not have that anger/dislike towards Harry, that would be a big problem.

I think Snape solved it by bringing James into the picture. This was a guy Snape could dislike, hate even, for all the things James did to him, starting on the train ride to Hogwarts and ending in the SK selection which got Lily killed.

I think Snape used James and he could generate the genuine anger and at the same time look as if he was feeling all this towards Harry.

That's how I see it anyway. :) Sorry, if it was very confusing.

My argument was that if Snape had been truly evil -- which he certainly wasn't -- then being nice to Harry would have been a good way to earn the child's trust to his own dark advantage.

That would be fine so long as Voldemort would not ask for Harry. The moment he did, Snape's work or life was over IMO.

And he did manage to get Harry's trust very quickly for all the hate Harry had towards him (with the memories) IMO. :)

If Snape had got Harry to trust him, I believe that would have been a piece of cake for him, in his spying capacity, I mean.

Re: his behaviour to Harry, what we see there is genuine emotion. Snape cannot stand to see James in Harry, for reasons that are, IMO, somewhat complex. But the emotion is genuine, not faked, IMO.

He cannot have mismatched memories to emotions. That would not contradict the lie IMO. And the memories of his taking away points and talking nasty to harry must also be accompanied by emotions to match the visuals. And I think his comments about James Potter brought forth genuine anger, to match the memories.
OK, so that means he would be Occluding Voldemort from seeing the genuine feelings of care he had for Harry, underneath his anger at James (the James he sometimes sees in Harry). In which case, his harsh words to Harry are still completely mismatched with the real emotions he feels underneath. Are you saying these feelings of caring for Harry are so deeply buried that Voldemort would be unable to detect them?

I think that's correct - because whether you believe that Snape loves Harry or not as person, he does absolutely care what happens to him because he is Lily's son.

So yes, his feelings are buried too deeply for Voldemort to detect them, and even when he does detect his feelings he mistakes them for "Desire" instead of "Love."

And we see that Voldemort does test Snape in DH, and he does it in a threatening way in front of everyone. And Dumbledore makes several statements in HBP about having to be careful what memories are shown to Voldemort, such as this one to Draco:

"I did not dare speak to you of the mission with which I knew you had been entrusted, in case he used Legilimency against you. . . . But now we can speak plainly to each other."

And that's just like Snape because it's not until he is dying that he can finally show Harry all his memories and let them go. He can finally speak plainly to him, while he couldn't before.

~~~

Voldemort knows that Snape was once at least infatuated with Lily, so Snape doesn't have to hide that, and he doesn't have to hide that he and James were rivals at school.

But he definitely has to hide the fact that he is working for Dumbledore and cares whether Harry lives or dies. That's a big deal!

Maybe this will help...

Since Snape hated James, it is easy for him to say things to Harry in class or during discipline and then show that memory to Voldemort.

It makes Snape look like an insensitive jerk, even when he's telling the truth. And it makes it look as if he doesn't give a flying flip what happens to Harry, but that is the big lie - that because Snape hated James, he also hates Harry.

Snape is counting on that because Voldemort understands that way of dealing with people - it's the way he also operates. Voldemort finds a crack in someone's psyche and uses that as a way to mentally bother them. (Or the way any bully operates, by attacking someone where they are most vulnerable) It's just like what Ron goes through when he looks at the Horcrux Locket - the opposite of the Mirror of Erised. Voldemort picks on Lucius and Peter - and Harry - the same way, by cutting them down.

Harry wants to see James as a hero, and when Snape tells him something that doesn't fit the picture, Harry is offended by that - it doesn't fit the perfect picture he saw in the Mirror of Erised. Of course, Dumbledore told him not to believe everything he saw in there, but still . . .

Here's what I think ~ Snape can attack James to both Harry and Sirius and then show the memory to Voldemort as "proof" that contradicts the real reason he is comparing Harry to James.

There is a real reason Snape is talking about James, and as I wrote in another post, it is similar to the reason Molly talks about James (when Harry defiantly asks her "what's wrong with that?" when she says he is not James).

Snape wants Harry to be different than James. He is not just bullying him, he is cautioning him. Voldemort wouldn't understand that. Voldemort doesn't want Harry to practice caution - he wants him to walk right into every trap, as he does in OotP when he recklessly takes all his friends right into danger.

But Snape does't want Harry to fall into a trap, as we see in Book One with the Nettle Wine Riddle. As we see in GoF when Snape is trying to get Harry to not use polyjuice or sneak around. As we see in OotP when Snaep is trying to teach Harry Occlumency and close him mind to the Dark Lord's suggestions.

There's a great line at the end of OotP, when Dumbledore is telling Harry about what Snape did the night of the DoM battle. "Snape grew worried."

"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once."

I don't really see how or why someone would be that "worried" if they didn't care at all. If that word was used for any other character in OotP, there would be no question about their good intentions.

posted by SIP
There's a great line at the end of OotP, when Dumbledore is telling Harry about what Snape did the night of the DoM battle. "Snape grew worried."

"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once."

I don't really see how or why someone would be that "worried" if they didn't care at all. If that word was used for any other character in OotP, there would be no question about their good intentions.

:clap: :clap: SIP! What an excellent post. You said everything I wanted to and so beautifully and so much better too! Thank you. :clap:

A couple of things occurred to me while I was away and I feel like sharing.

Firstly it occurred to me that there are certain similarities between Severus Snape and Aragorn son of Arathorn from LotR. Both appear to be evil and up to no good, both have a dodgey reputation - Snape for his "love of the Dark Arts" and Aragorn because he is a ranger. Aragorn is a king in hiding (or exile) while Snape has the nickname, which no one else seems to be aware of, Half-Blood Prince. Both are healers.


Wow! I love the connection to LoTR that you made! LOTR rocks! :tu:

My point is that Snape should not have mentioned Harry's father in the first place. and Molly may be speaking sternly to Harry, but she is not insulting Harry's father, a man who would probably have agreed with her if he had been present. It is not that Snape speaks harshly to Harry that I disagree with. Harry did deserve to be reprimanded but his long dead father should not have been mentioned.
In normal circumstances I thibnk perhaps I would agree with you. However the relationship between Harry and Severus was far from normal. Severus had agreed to protect Harry and many of the occasions (if not all) that Snape mentions Harry's father are in the context of keeping Harry alive. IMO it is obvious that Snape thought James had made some pretty big errors of judgement (and that is without him knowing about the lack of wand situation) Snape's message to Harry is generally "Don't be arrogant like your father or you'll end up like your father - dead." Snape was harsh and unpleasant, but he carried out his task of keeping Harry alive very well.
btw - I happen to agree with you that Harry's naming of his son speaks more of Harry's magnimity (sp) I don't think many people are as forgiving as Harry but to me that is the point; Harry's ability to forgive is part of his ability to love and it is this capacity which Harry has in spades that enabled him to defeat Voldemort, so for me it was right and fitting that having defeated Voldemort by his ability to love he should also forgive Snape. I also think that Jo was giving us the last word on Snape. Yes he was a nasty unpleasant bully, but he was also the bravest man Harry Potter knew and had an great ability to love himself. To me Harry is giving a good example by looking for and recognising the good in Severus and forgiving the bad. This to me is a strong Christian message.

I think that's correct - because whether you believe that Snape loves Harry or not as person, he does absolutely care what happens to him because he is Lily's son.

I've never doubted that. :cool: The quote of yours I've bolded, I mean.

My own interpretation of Snape is that his feelings for Harry are ambivalent: he is torn between love (for Lily) and hate (for James) and certainly doesn't want Harry to become another James (as Snape perceived him).

So yes, his feelings are buried too deeply for Voldemort to detect them, and even when he does detect his feelings he mistakes them for "Desire" instead of "Love."

Ah yes, that's true. Voldemort never knew a thing about Snape's true feelings for Lily.

I wasn't questioning Snape's skill as an Occlumens! :cool: That to me is Solid Canon. :D I was merely mystified by how Occlumency actually worked, and getting rather lost in the arguments that were being thrown up about what Snape might be actually concealing from Voldemort :yuhup: but I am clearer now. :tu:

I don't really see how or why someone would be that "worried" if they didn't care at all. If that word was used for any other character in OotP, there would be no question about their good intentions.

In which case, one could say that Severus played his part rather too well. :whistle: :)

And that is a great line. :tu:

My own interpretation of Snape is that his feelings for Harry are ambivalent: he is torn between love (for Lily) and hate (for James) and certainly doesn't want Harry to become another James (as Snape perceived him). That is how I see it too!

I don't really see how or why someone would be that "worried" if they didn't care at all. If that word was used for any other character in OotP, there would be no question about their good intentions.Fantastic catch SIP! What I find interesting is the use of the word "worried" as opposed to 'concerned'. "Concern" expresses a feeling that something is wrong, but IMO "worried" is a far more personal word to use. I have always thought that Snape's feelings for Harry changed subtly throughout the series, and that the occlumency lessons were a catalyst for this. So for me the use of the word "worried" implied that Snape at this point in the series was starting to see Harry in a different light, perhaps seeing the Lily in him and not just the James.

A nettle is a thorny plant, a weed that no one wants growing in the yard because it can be hurtful. But it can also be purified over time to create something better out of itself - like nettle wine, which is also a potion that can "lead" Harry to the Philosopher's Stone. Interestingly, that also leads Harry to a truth about Snape - he isn't behind the door and Voldemort is the real villain after all.
In the riddle, nettle wine is, I believe, the "useless" substances amongst the potions, the ones that have no effect on the drinker:
Two of us will help you, whichever you would find,
One among us seven will let you move ahead,
Another will transport the drinker back instead,
Two among our number hold only nettle wine,
Three of us are killers, waiting hidden in line.
Therefore, I do not know if the symbology of Snape helping Harry along, comparable to the symbol of nettle wine, is necessarily true on this occasion. Nonetheless, Snape and nettles/thorns holds very nice symbology.
1) JKR called him a bully more times than canon characters, and I disagree with her.
That is fine, but I do not dispute canon. If Snape is noted as a bully (or acting like one) by just one character (be it Harry, Neville, or Elphias Doge), I do not deny it. If one character considers Snape a bully, then I think Snape is a bully - at least, in that character's eyes.
2) Snape was not just a teacher and I feel seeing his actions only as a teacher is unfair to him, for it does not do justice to his character as a whole. It is not as if we know he was cruel and a bully and harsh when he was not a spy and a teacher. When he was a student, Lily interestingly does not call him a bully, but James; so there is canon that Snape was not a bully in School, in his younger days. In Hogwarts, he was not merely a teacher but something else too. For almost 18 years since the time Snape came to meet Dumbledore on the hill, he was playing a part, of which the teacher part was ancillary to the main part which was his build up to convince Voldemort, wherever he met the Dark Lord.
In my interpretation of his character, I do not divide Snape into teacher and spy - the two are, as you say, indivisible. However, I do not think his role as a spy excuses his actions as a teacher.

Voldemort stationed Snape at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore, with the cover of teaching for the headmaster. If Snape was kind to all of his students, I do not think Voldemort would dispute Snape's behavior, since Voldemort would see Snape as fulfilling the proper role to remain in "Dumbledore's pocket." Contrarily, I think Snape could also behave horribly to his students (in Voldemort's perspective), as long as Dumbledore kept Snape as a teacher. As I see it, Snape could teach in any way he wanted - it was his choice to be "horrible" to Harry, Neville, and a lot of other students.
it is also canon that Legilimency involves not only memories but also feelings to go along with them.
Could you please clarify? Do you mean that Legilimency emotionally pains an individual because of the memories it brings forth? Or are you referring to the mental weakness that penetrating one's mind causes (like Harry experienced)?

Either way, I do not think Voldemort's probing of Snape's mind necessarily hurt Snape, in the way it hurt Harry. In the Dark Lord Ascending, I believe we see an instance of Voldemort using Legilimency on Snape, and Snape is unaffected. That is because he is a superb Occlumens - Harry was not.
I think it is the difference between seeing him only as a teacher and seeing him as a person who had additional jobs along with the teaching at the same time 24/7 for 14-15 years and then walking back to Voldemort, showing him those 14 years worth of memories, convincing him and and start working for what he and Dumbeldore had been waiting for, for all these years.
I agree with bellatrix93 and Pearl_Took that Snape could hide certain memories from Voldemort (by both the Pensieve and Occlumency), which is why he was such an effective spy. He could easily hide his conversations with Dumbledore that would reveal his true allegiances to Voldemort.
Also, as I have already said, I do not think Voldemort would have cared if he saw memories of Snape being kind to Harry Potter and his friends, since Voldemort would just see that as Snape being a good spy for Voldemort.
What should Snape have done if Voldemort asked Snape to bring Harry to him? Because Snape was very nice and kind to Harry.
I think Snape could have easily countered in a similar manner to how he countered Bellatrix: it would be folly and futile to attempt to deliver Harry under Dumbledore's nose. I do not think Voldemort would expect Snape to be able to deliver Harry to him, if Snape and Harry were closer, with Dumbledore watching over Harry so intently. However, I think Voldemort would have tried to make Snape put Harry in a position where Voldemort could eventually take Harry. At those demands, I expect Snape could have simply lied (through Occlumency) to Voldemort.
And Voldemort will not question the gaps? Foolish as I think Voldemort was in the last Book, I think he would want proof that Snape was his man, and I am pretty sure he will not accept Snape, if he finds gaps in his memories. JMHO.
I do not think Snape, when using Occlumency, had any "gaps in his memories" because he was so accomplished at shielding his mind. As I see it, Snape would be able to either replace/tamper with those memories he did not want Voldemort to see, or else he would simply make transitions between memores seamless.
Yes, and I think it is made pretty clear just how much influence Dumbledore has had on Severus over the years.
I read Snape's remark about Phineas saying "Mudblood" as being influenced more by him losing Lily (by calling her "Mudblood") than by Dumbledore. Nonetheless, I do like the connection between Dumbledore and Snape both telling others not to call Hermione "Mudblood."
Yes; I believe Voldemort would have known if Snape was blocking the memories and would have killed him.
To me, this contradicts canon. Everyone (both good and bad) thinks Snape could be a spy for either side because he is a superb Occlumens. If Occlumency could not block certain memories from Voldemort, then Snape, as I see it, could not have been a successful spy.

In my interpretation of his character, I do not divide Snape into teacher and spy - the two are, as you say, indivisible. However, I do not think his role as a spy excuses his actions as a teacher.

Voldemort stationed Snape at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore, with the cover of teaching for the headmaster. If Snape was kind to all of his students, I do not think Voldemort would dispute Snape's behavior, since Voldemort would see Snape as fulfilling the proper role to remain in "Dumbledore's pocket." Contrarily, I think Snape could also behave horribly to his students (in Voldemort's perspective), as long as Dumbledore kept Snape as a teacher. As I see it, Snape could teach in any way he wanted - it was his choice to be "horrible" to Harry, Neville, and a lot of other students.

I agree. Snape's behavior as a teacher was a choice. He held on to his bitterness and it affected how he interacted with others.

This is purely speculation. Based on how Snape spoke of the Dark Arts on his first lesson as a DADA teacher.

You mean the one where he reminded Hermione of Harry? :huh:

"Well," said Hermione, "I thought he sounded a bit like you."

"Like me?"

"Yes, when you were telling us what it's like to face Voldemort. You said it wasn't just memorizing a bunch of spells, you said it was just you and your brains and your guts - well, wasn't that what Snape was saying? That it really comes down to being brave and quick-thinking?"

Also based on Bellatrix's treatment to Snape in Spinner's End. I interpreted her behaviour as jealousy. And I believe she was jealous from Snape since the first war. Jealous from the rank he had in the DE's circle.

'Spinner's End' takes place during VWII after both Lucius and Bella messed up in the Department of Mysteries, and consequently lost their 'rank'.

"He shares everything with me!" said Bellatrix, firing up at once. "He calls me his most loyal, his most faithful —"

"Does he?" said Snape, his voice delicately inflected to suggest his disbelief. "Does he still, after the fiasco at the Ministry?"

"That was not my fault!" said Bellatrix, flushing. "The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious — if Lucius hadn't —"

"Don't you dare — don't you dare blame my husband!" said Narcissa, in a low and deadly voice, looking up at her sister.


"...thought we were supposed to be friends?" Snape was saying, "Best friends?"

"We are Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging round with, I'm sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev, he's creepy. D' you know what he tried to do to Mary MacDonald the other day?

"It's too late. I made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends- you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-know-who, can you?"

He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.

"I can't pretend anymore. You've chosen your way. I've chosen mine."

In the first incident Lily makes it clear that she doesn't approve of Snape's friends. In the second, he's still hanging around with those friends. He doesn't deny his ambition to become a DE and join Voldemort. To me this means he chose them over her :).[/QUOTE]

We've already discussed the incident here, so as long as I don't delve too deep into their mutual relationship I think I'll be fine. :relax:

I respect your opinion that if Snape refused to stop seeing Mulciber because Lily detests him it must mean he preferred Voldemort to her. However, I strongly disagree with it.

We never get to find out what it was exactly that Avery and Mulciber tried to do to Mary - Imperio her to do the hula in DADA class, for all we know... it's an Unforgivable.

It wasn't Snape 'making excuses for years' and 'pretending' about their friendship, it was Lily. He was perfectly happy to be friends with 'a mudblood' - doesn't really strike me as a passionate DE's stance.

Severus didn't exactly love the people Lily kept in contact with, yet her reaction to his protest... One of absolute outrage.

“ I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever’s down there – ”
Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, “Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero?
He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to – I won’t let you – ”
“ Letme? Let me?”
Lily’s bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.

And in your second quote it is Severus trying to mend the gap. So...

at which point exactly did he think "Forget Lily, I'll go to Voldemort"? :huh:

I agree. Snape's behavior as a teacher was a choice. He held on to his bitterness and it affected how he interacted with others.

I agree. Harry was arrogant at times, but Neville was the antithesis of arrogant; Hermione was a brilliant student and Ron was not as brilliant and Snape treated them all in a negative manner, imo. So I don't feel that Snape had their well being in mind when interacting with them. No more than Snape's better treatment of Draco indicated that Draco was a model student and individual, imo.

That is fine, but I do not dispute canon. If Snape is noted as a bully (or acting like one) by just one character (be it Harry, Neville, or Elphias Doge), I do not deny it. If one character considers Snape a bully, then I think Snape is a bully - at least, in that character's eyes.

I agree. Though that character may not necessarily be right, just because they hold an opinion; for they may have not known the facts. Snape was very much thought of as a traitor by the Order for a whole year. But just because McGonagall, Harry or Lupin thought so of him, which is canon too; but did not make him a real traitor to the Order IMO.

In my interpretation of his character, I do not divide Snape into teacher and spy - the two are, as you say, indivisible. However, I do not think his role as a spy excuses his actions as a teacher.

When his interactions with any student as a teacher, Head of House could have an effect on his role as a spy, then I think there is a choice between which comes first. Unless it is the life of the student, I think the spy role comes first and his role as teacher comes second IMO.

It is not a question of excuses IMO. At least I am not offering any. :) It is my opinion that spies need to do acts that may or may not be rude or helpful, simpering or kind. That's something a spy has to do to keep his role secure IMO.

Voldemort stationed Snape at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore, with the cover of teaching for the headmaster. If Snape was kind to all of his students, I do not think Voldemort would dispute Snape's behavior, since Voldemort would see Snape as fulfilling the proper role to remain in "Dumbledore's pocket." Contrarily, I think Snape could also behave horribly to his students (in Voldemort's perspective), as long as Dumbledore kept Snape as a teacher. As I see it, Snape could teach in any way he wanted - it was his choice to be "horrible" to Harry, Neville, and a lot of other students.

I disagree. For Voldemort could just as easily ask Snape to bring Harry to him and then Snape and his work are lost to the Order IMO.

Could you please clarify? Do you mean that Legilimency emotionally pains an individual because of the memories it brings forth? Or are you referring to the mental weakness that penetrating one's mind causes (like Harry experienced)?

I have given what canon says about both Legilimency and Occlumency. I don't understand what you are asking in regard with both, since I never said Legilimency causes mental weakness. :hmm: Though it could hurt like anything if the mind is penetrated roughly. Did you mean this?

Either way, I do not think Voldemort's probing of Snape's mind necessarily hurt Snape, in the way it hurt Harry.

I disagree. Voldemort IMO would have seen those memories as painfully as he could make it for Snape, so that, if Snape was lying he would suffer and perhaps reveal the truth to Voldemort IMO.

In the Dark Lord Ascending, I believe we see an instance of Voldemort using Legilimency on Snape, and Snape is unaffected. That is because he is a superb Occlumens - Harry was not.

Yes; at that time Voldemort was probing Snape's mind with the confidence Snape was his man. Snape was fresh from killing Dumbledore and had more than proved his loyalty.

In GOF, when Snape went back, I doubt Voldemort would have been so kind. He would have probed long and hard until he was satisfied IMO.

I agree with bellatrix93 and Pearl_Took that Snape could hide certain memories from Voldemort (by both the Pensieve and Occlumency), which is why he was such an effective spy. He could easily hide his conversations with Dumbledore that would reveal his true allegiances to Voldemort.

Yes; he could hide his true loyalties; he could hide his work for the Order, but can he hide all his interactions with Harry (assuming he had been very friendly) when he also had Lucius Malfoy and DE kids in the School, watching him and still expect Voldemort to believe that he was a loyal DE? How would he accomplish that? When his false memories contradicted what the DE kids told their parents and through them Voldemort?

I think Snape could have easily countered in a similar manner to how he countered Bellatrix: it would be folly and futile to attempt to deliver Harry under Dumbledore's nose.

Harry was the one Voldemort was obsessed with; he was the boy who had the power to vanquish him; why should he care for what Dumbledore would think, if he could ask Snape to get Harry for him, using the trust Snape created all those years in Harry?

The war for Voldemort would be won with Harry's death. He would have defeated the boy who had the power to vanquish him. What else could be more important? Why should Voldemort think it futile, if he had seen memories of Snape's interaction with Harry, where Snape was very kind and pleasant to Harry? He would simply ask Snape to get Harry and kill him first IMO.

I do not think Snape, when using Occlumency, had any "gaps in his memories" because he was so accomplished at shielding his mind. As I see it, Snape would be able to either replace/tamper with those memories he did not want Voldemort to see, or else he would simply make transitions between memores seamless.

Sure! But would he be able to also get the DE kids to testify to his false memories? I don't think that would be possible. Tampering memories would most certainly make Voldemort suspicious, for he would know that to be a false memory. How would Snape go around that?

To me, this contradicts canon. Everyone (both good and bad) thinks Snape could be a spy for either side because he is a superb Occlumens. If Occlumency could not block certain memories from Voldemort, then Snape, as I see it, could not have been a successful spy.

I disagree. I have quoted canon (Spinner's End in the last couple of pages; I'm much too lazy to copy that now) to say that Voldemort certainly did not expect Snape to block memories from him and that he searched Snape throughly before he re-admitted him, and even with that he had Peter staying with Snape. Snape could not IMO block memories and expect Voldemort to be satisfied. I don't think Dumbledore would be satisfied with a blocked or tampered memory, let alone Voldemort, when he was searching for the loyalty of his follower IMO.

Fantastic catch SIP! What I find interesting is the use of the word "worried" as opposed to 'concerned'. "Concern" expresses a feeling that something is wrong, but IMO "worried" is a far more personal word to use. I have always thought that Snape's feelings for Harry changed subtly throughout the series, and that the occlumency lessons were a catalyst for this. So for me the use of the word "worried" implied that Snape at this point in the series was starting to see Harry in a different light, perhaps seeing the Lily in him and not just the James.

I always thought that too. In fact, Severus saw some of the abuse that Harry suffered at the hands of the Dursleys during their Occlumency lessons and (IMO...not canon) may have )probably) felt empathy. Sure, he didn't let on but he would have known that Harry didn't have the charmed life of a famous wizard that he may have imagined. I don't know the quote but he wanted to know who the dog belonged to... and other things that just won't come to me at the moment (and me without my books!!).

I agree. Though that character may not necessarily be right, just because they hold an opinion; for they may have not known the facts. Snape was very much thought of as a traitor by the Order for a whole year. But just because McGonagall, Harry or Lupin thought so of him, which is canon too; but did not make him a real traitor to the Order IMO.
I do not think one's status as a bully can be completely comparable to that of a traitor. A bully involves insulting, mocking, etc. to a person or people - whether a person is a bully is generally an opinion, not fact (as we are demonstrating with this debate). Meanwhile, I think being a traitor is much more straightforward.

Therefore, I still believe that a character who thinks Snape is a bully cannot be wrong, since it is a personal opinion. However, my point is that if one individual thought Snape was a bully, then Snape should be qualified as a bully, at the least, to that character (e.g. Neville).
When his interactions with any student as a teacher, Head of House could have an effect on his role as a spy, then I think there is a choice between which comes first. Unless it is the life of the student, I think the spy role comes first and his role as teacher comes second IMO.
As I have said (and will say later in this post), I do not think Snape's interactions with students interfered or could have (except in extreme cases) with his role as a spy.
It is not a question of excuses IMO. At least I am not offering any. :) It is my opinion that spies need to do acts that may or may not be rude or helpful, simpering or kind. That's something a spy has to do to keep his role secure IMO.
Again, I do not think Snape's role as a spy would have ever been jeopardized by his teaching methods.
I disagree. For Voldemort could just as easily ask Snape to bring Harry to him and then Snape and his work are lost to the Order IMO.
No, Snape could have easily made an excuse as to why he could not deliver Harry. As I said before, mentioning Dumbledore's watch over Harry would likely have done the trick.

Also, I do not necessarily think Snape should have sought to be best friends with Harry (I used this more as a hyperbolic situation). I simply claim that Snape could have been nicer (which would not be difficult, since he was so horrible to him) to Harry and many of the other students. I certainly believe Snape could be indifferent towards the Gryffindors without jeopardizing his role as spy (which I do not think was ever in danger, as I have already stated).

For instance, Snape did not need to call Neville an "idiot boy" in the first Potions class, simply to maintain appearances for Voldemort. He could have easily excluded the insult, without damaging any false appearance for Voldemort. I firmly believe that Snape could have avoided being "torturous" to Harry and other Gryffindor students, even if his role as a spy was endangered by being too friendly.
I have given what canon says about both Legilimency and Occlumency. I don't understand what you are asking in regard with both, since I never said Legilimency causes mental weakness. :hmm: Though it could hurt like anything if the mind is penetrated roughly. Did you mean this?
I think I simply misunderstood your comment. I will not reply, since I think we will just go around in a circle, confusing ourselves! :lol:
I disagree. Voldemort IMO would have seen those memories as painfully as he could make it for Snape, so that, if Snape was lying he would suffer and perhaps reveal the truth to Voldemort IMO.
This is an interesting statement, and one that begins to take us off topic. However, I am not convinced that a Legilimens can choose how painfully to probe into one's mind (I think the frequency of using Legilimency is the cause of pain). No matter what, though, I think an accomplished Occlumens like Snape would be unaffected by Voldemort's attempts to cause him pain. I think Snape willingly gave Voldemort any memory he desired, with a few exceptions, so Snape put up the proper defenses against those particular memories and was unharmed by the rest of Voldemort's probing.
Yes; at that time Voldemort was probing Snape's mind with the confidence Snape was his man. Snape was fresh from killing Dumbledore and had more than proved his loyalty.

In GOF, when Snape went back, I doubt Voldemort would have been so kind. He would have probed long and hard until he was satisfied IMO.
Agreed. I still doubt whether that process would cause Snape immense pain, though. Prodigious defense and willpower, certainly, but not necessarily pain.
Yes; he could hide his true loyalties; he could hide his work for the Order, but can he hide all his interactions with Harry (assuming he had been very friendly) when he also had Lucius Malfoy and DE kids in the School, watching him and still expect Voldemort to believe that he was a loyal DE? How would he accomplish that? When his false memories contradicted what the DE kids told their parents and through them Voldemort?
I do not suggest Snape would need to hide every exchange with Harry (I apologize that I did not make myself clearer). I think he only needed to hide evidence of his true loyalties to Dumbledore and the Order. He would not need to hide every exchange with Harry (though he would likely need to hide some, like the Occlumency lessons) if he was friendly/indifferent towards Harry.
Harry was the one Voldemort was obsessed with; he was the boy who had the power to vanquish him; why should he care for what Dumbledore would think, if he could ask Snape to get Harry for him, using the trust Snape created all those years in Harry?
To quote Snape:
"It was only Dumbledore's protection that was keeping me out of Azkaban! Do you disagree that murdering his favorite student might have turned him against me?"
...
"I have done my utmost to have him thrown out of Hogwarts, where I believe he scarcely belongs, but kill him, or allow him to be killed in front of me? I would have been a fool to risk it with Dumbledore close at hand."
If Voldemort wanted Snape to kidnap Harry Potter, I think he would have had Snape do so in the books, even with Snape and Harry's horrible relationship. I do not think that friendly ties between Snape and Harry would make Voldemort risk Snape getting Harry for him, "with Dumbledore close at hand."
The war for Voldemort would be won with Harry's death. He would have defeated the boy who had the power to vanquish him. What else could be more important? Why should Voldemort think it futile, if he had seen memories of Snape's interaction with Harry, where Snape was very kind and pleasant to Harry? He would simply ask Snape to get Harry and kill him first IMO.
Then why did Voldemort not try to do this in the books? As I said, I do not think a friendly relationship between Snape and Harry would have changed the risk involved in Snape delivering Harry to Voldemort.
Sure! But would he be able to also get the DE kids to testify to his false memories? I don't think that would be possible. Tampering memories would most certainly make Voldemort suspicious, for he would know that to be a false memory. How would Snape go around that?
Based on Dumbledore's comment about Slughorn's botched memory, I think memories can be tampered with much more undetectably than the example we see in the books - undetectable to the point that Voldemort would not know the difference, especially when those memories are controlled by a master Occlumens like Snape.
I disagree. I have quoted canon (Spinner's End in the last couple of pages; I'm much too lazy to copy that now) to say that Voldemort certainly did not expect Snape to block memories from him and that he searched Snape throughly before he re-admitted him, and even with that he had Peter staying with Snape. Snape could not IMO block memories and expect Voldemort to be satisfied. I don't think Dumbledore would be satisfied with a blocked or tampered memory, let alone Voldemort, when he was searching for the loyalty of his follower IMO.
Voldemort may not have expected Snape to block memories, but I claim that Snape had to block memories from Voldemort in order to remain a double agent. Again, I do not think memories that are blocked by an Occlumens such as Snape can be detected, even by Voldemort, which is why Snape was so successful. Also, Snape had at his disposal Dumbledore's Pensieve, which would also add to Snape's ability to hide memories from Voldemort.

No, Snape could have easily made an excuse as to why he could not deliver Harry. As I said before, mentioning Dumbledore's watch over Harry would likely have done the trick.

Also, I do not necessarily think Snape should have sought to be best friends with Harry (I used this more as a hyperbolic situation). I simply claim that Snape could have been nicer (which would not be difficult, since he was so horrible to him) to Harry and many of the other students. I certainly believe Snape could be indifferent towards the Gryffindors without jeopardizing his role as spy (which I do not think was ever in danger, as I have already stated).

For instance, Snape did not need to call Neville an "idiot boy" in the first Potions class, simply to maintain appearances for Voldemort. He could have easily excluded the insult, without damaging any false appearance for Voldemort. I firmly believe that Snape could have avoided being "torturous" to Harry and other Gryffindor students, even if his role as a spy was endangered by being too friendly.

I agree. Voldemort's main reason for keeping Snape at Hogwarts was spying on Dumbledore and the Order. Voldemort was cautious about Dumbledore, and wanted to get him out of the way, figuring everything would be easier once that was done. The Ministry, the Order, Hogwarts and Harry would be much more vulnerable without Dumbledore around.

And Snape would not necessarily have to be nice to the students, just not go out of his way to insult, intimidate, sabotage their work, etc. All he needed to do was be perfunctory toward everyone but Slytherin students, and the result would have been the same as far as what might get back to the DE's via Draco.

Further, Snape has taken actions that protected Harry and others when he felt it was necessary (Veritaserum, Harry & Hermione not coming out of the forest with Umbridge). So in my opinion, Snape could have altered his behavior toward the students with no effect on his spying role....he simply chose not to, and I think he got satisfaction out of "torturing" some students.

The point I'm trying to make is that he did treat Harry and his friends 'normally'. Normally for him, that is.

Exactly. :agree: If we look at the early information about Snape in PS/SS:
No wonder he's looking so nervous, that's Professor Snape.
Snape's Head of Slytherin House. They say he always favours them - we'll be able to see if that's true.
...if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach
(Snape was)...criticizing almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like.
Don't push it, I've heard Snape can turn very nasty.
<snip>
Cheer up, Snape's always taking points off Fred and George.

There are more examples, but I think this selection makes it clear that generally being nasty and critical was absolutely normal behaviour for Snape, before Harry even arrived at Hogwarts. That's just the way he was. He was pointedly nice to Draco, even over the other Slytherins in the class, I would suggest that was because he knew he needed to stay on the right side of Lucius.

He was pointedly nice to Draco, even over the other Slytherins in the class, I would suggest that was because he knew he needed to stay on the right side of Lucius.

Or he simply showed constant favoritism towards his own house.

Actually, it is not showing favoritism to his house - the quote says almost everyone except Draco - that means he was criticizing Slytherins, too.

And I don't believe it really shows any favoritism. He specifically points out how well Draco had prepared his ingredients. Considering Draco's well-to-do upbringing, it is highly likely that the kid has had tutoring in potions already and actually IS quite good at cutting up stuff by now.

Note that IF one goes back to that scene, he merely points out to the other kids an example of what they should emulate when preparing their own ingredients. Not really any different than Flitwick pointing out when Hermione got the levitation spell right or when Minerva excitedly pointed out how well Hermione did with her first transfiguration. The difference? Minerva gave points to Gryffindor, Snape did not give points to Slytherin. How does that show favoritism?

An excellent point, hwyla! Even though Snape clearly shows approval of Draco, he does not give him House points for merely doing his schoolwork correctly. :agree:

And that it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work.

And that it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work.

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

Being a loner myself, I know what Severus feels at times. When he lost Lily that night, he didn't just lose a lover, but also his mother, sister, friend and everything she was to him. She was the world to him; she's more than just a lover, that's what I think. :)

He hates James, not only because James was someone he couldn't become, but also somebody who took away everything from him. I can understand the love-hate relationship with Harry, he likes Harry because he is Lily Evans' boy, but he hates Harry because he was the product of James' and Lily's love.

Have I confused anyone yet?
MC :)

ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results Do we know that he didn't ridicule Crabbe and Goyle as well? He certainly gives them detention for poor classwork, and we see very little of them compared to the Trio.
"You realize that, had anybody else failed to come to my office when I had told them repeatedly to be there, Draco --" <snip>
"I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"
making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes I always took that as a way of deflating Harry's ego before it got out of control. Snape was witness to the excitement when Harry was Sorted, and, I think, chose a subtle method of ensuring that Harry realized that he couldn't assume he was great just because he was famous. A bit much, perhaps, but considering the way Harry's father behaved in school, I cannot blame Snape for doing this.
criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her) This is neither unfair nor bullying. In fact, not calling on the class know-it-all is more fair, since it means the other students have to work as well, rather than relying on one person to answer every question.
constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging himHow would Snape explain such sudden warm fuzziness towards any student, let alone a Gryffindor whose parents were in the Order? Draco would certainly notice, and certainly tell his father, who would not approve, and in turn would certainly inform the returned Voldemort about such aberrant behaviour. Snape believed Dumbledore when he said that Voldemort would return (this just after the attack on the Potters) and he needed to be fully prepared for the role that Dumbledore wanted him to play. In order to do that, Snape had to keep his cover intact.

And that it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work.

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

Just to clarify - there's no canon in the books that Harry was taking notes - that's purely moviePotter. In fact Harry and Ron exchange a look of lifted eyebrows at the end of Snape's first speech. A look that tends to look like skepticism. This happens right before Snape goes into question mode. The movie makes Harry look like an angel taking notes. However, it's not what the book says. I'm not surprised that Snape's first opinion of Harry isn't too grand. They get off on the wrong foot because of the pain Harry felt when Voldy faced him through Quirrel's turban during the opening feast.

Again, moviePotter does something different than bookPotter. In the movie he clasps his hand to his head. Nothing about that in the book. So, if one doesn't clasp one's hand to the painful head just what does pain look like from a distance? It looks like disgust.

Then what happens? Harry turns and asks Percy about Quirrel/Snape. So, from afar we have a disgusted look from a kid who looks just like James but has been raised by Petunia (the girl who thoroughly disliked him as a kid) and is now apparently discussing Snape with another kid. Not laughing it up and having fun during the opening feast, but instead zeroing in on the teacher with a look of disgust, the one teacher whom his aunt might have actually told him about. The same aunt who once called him that Snape boy who lives down at SpinnersEnd. The aunt whom Snape would assume probably knew James well enough to hear some Snivellous stories and pass them on.

So, then comes the first potions class and here the kid is giving his pal a look of disbelief at the end of what really was a rather inspiring speech. I have no idea whether Snape had planned to ask one person all the questions originally, but I think his response to that look between Ron and Harry is that Harry is planning to surf through this class on his celebrity status and he's going to put a stop to that right quick. And I'm sure it doesn't help that it's Ron (younger brother of the twins) with whom Harry is sharing that look.

And no, I do not agree that he was a bully. I think he was a hard taskmaster, but not a bully. Really the only time I remember (and I admit my memory isn't perfect) his getting on Harry's case 'in class' that wasn't well deserved is when he gets on him about not watching Neville's work in the very first class.

And I truly don't have a problem with his calling on Harry to answer questions. He's making a point that you need to come to this class prepared. He singles out Harry because he's the famous kid that all the other kids will look to. Showing that even the BWL must do his studying reinforces that every other kid in there must do so as well.

And since Hermione knows all the answers, then the answers were apparently all in the books that Harry had for a month. As for not calling on Hermione, she's a teacher's nightmare - the kid who answers everything so all the other kids believe they can just sit by and get away without bothering to read up ahead of time. Why bother reading when the class brain will feed you word-for-word book answers in class?

I've also never seen why Harry is supposedly humiliated by these questions. Only Hermione knew the answers, so why is he supposed to be embarrassed since no one else apparently had read ahead either? Truthfully, while the answers were in the books, I rather think the point was that no one should have known the answers - that it would instill in the students the determination that THEY would all have the answers ready ahead of class next time.

And while Crabb and Goyle may not be the brightest bulbs in the class, they are rarely dangerous like Neville. How many times do we hear about their cauldrons blowing up or melting? I'm not even sure how truly bad they were since they apparently passed their Potion OWLs since Snape doesn't have them in remedial potions in bk6. Perhaps we need to go through example by example? Unfortunately I'll need to depend on someone else to bring the passages in, my books are not currently available.

However, Crabbe and Goyle are purebloods. And they grew up in Wizarding homes. They may have also had the benefit of tutoring ahead. I must admit that I don't remember specific instances where their potions are singled out as particularly bad. Believe it or not I haven't memorized the books. So I would appreciate it if someone can give the full passage about one of their bad potions.

But we also need to remember that Neville is a pureblood, so supposedly he was also home schooled. But he makes a horrendously dangerous potion out of one even Harry (who has never made a potion before in his life) thought was very simple. He manages to take a boil cure and turn it into a potion that causes boils, melting the cauldron and spilling out the contents all over the floor where it is spreading towards other students and threatening to burn through their shoes. (IF I recall it all correctly).

And he does this before Snape has said hardly a word to him. It is not Snape's 'nasty' insults that cause Neville to mess up. He truly is that incompetent. And not just in potions class. All because he doesn't read the directions correctly. I believe Snape comes to believe over the years that NO ONE can be THAT bad and that he is doing it on purpose. There's even a line where Snape outright asks Neville what he has to do to get him to understand. He's obviously quite flustered. He even precedes that by saying the two things Neville did wrong, both of which Snape had apparently just told the entire class (not just written on the board, but verbally reminded them to be careful about) before they began brewing.

I think it's also important to remember that Snape is apparently from a section of the UK that IS known to be particularly harsh in the way they talk. It is considered a good thing to be brutally honest there. What's interesting is that Neville is from the same area. I do not think there's a coincidence that Neville is almost as concerned to have the boggart in 3rd year turn into his Gran as he is about it being Snape. And truthfully Snape has never done anything as bad to Neville as his family has. Never dropped him off a pier to see if he'd drown or save himself. Or out of a window to see if he'd bounce or be hurt. And unlike Minerva (who reminded Neville in front of the class to not let anyone from the other schools know that he couldn't perform a 'SIMPLE switching spell), we don't see Snape actually insult Neville UNLESS he is actually doing something stupid at the time.

Lastly, these books are NOT set in the type of classroom that kids in the USA attend in this day and age. We are not supposed to compare the teaching methods of Hogwarts to the methods we hope our children are learning under - or at least MANY seem to hope they are. Personally, I'd prefer a tough Snape or Minerva. My favorite teachers, who taught me the most important things I learned, were more like those two (and I think Snape is VERY similar to Minerva). I despised the classes where I had to sit around and review verbs and nouns over and over and over - year after year - so that no child was left behind. No child ever got to run ahead at their own speed either. I was bored to tears.

Anyways, the setting of these books is with a school system where even in the muggle schools there is apparently corporal punishment. Harry truly believed that when Minerva went asking Quirrel if she could borrow 'Wood' that he was about to be beaten with a wooden object. And he is NOT surprised by the idea, nor outraged, nor does he find it unbelievable. That tends to imply that corporal punishment was used in his previous school. I hope he thought it would be a paddle, but 'caning' would be appropriate to 'english public school stories'. And Arthur Weasley, still has the 'marks' from a beating he received at Hogwarts as punishment some 25 years ago or so.

Remember also that Dudley's school Smeltings even had a 'knobbly stick' as part of the uniform, with the express purpose being to use it to hit other kids. The schools in these books are NOT meant to be compared to the classrooms that the kids who read the books sit in.

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

Let's see the canon, shall we?

"Personal judgments of Harry":

“Ah, Yes,” he said softly, “Harry Potter. Our new — celebrity .”

“Tut, tut — fame clearly isn’t everything.”

“You — Potter — why didn’t you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he’d make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That’s another point you’ve lost for Gryffindor.”

"All Harry was doing was taking notes":

Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold eyes. He had looked through his books at the Dursleys’, but did Snape expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi ?

“I don’t know,” said Harry quietly. “I think Hermione does, though, why don’t you try her?”

"Insulting Neville instead of encouraging him":

Neville had somehow managed to melt Seamus’s cauldron into a twisted blob, and their potion was seeping across the stone floor, burning holes in people’s shoes. Within seconds, the whole class was standing on their
stools while Neville, who had been drenched in the potion when the cauldron collapsed, moaned in pain as angry red boils sprang up all over his arms and legs.
“Idiot boy!” snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with one wave of his wand. “I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire?”
Neville whimpered as boils started to pop up all over his nose.
“Take him up to the hospital wing,” Snape spat at Seamus.

"Refusing to call on Hermione":

At this, Hermione stood up, her hand stretching toward the dungeon ceiling.


Harry is a celebrity when he arrives at Hogwarts.

He doesn't know a single answer.

'Why don't you try her' is a comment made by a first year student to his teacher on his first ever class. Hardly endearing.

Neville blows up his cauldron and puts the entire class in danger - not exactly the kind of behaviour a teacher would 'encourage' or 'help'.

And Hermione actually stands up in the middle of a lesson to get the teacher's attention! Now, I have no idea about the UK school system but where I come from this is indeed considered impertinent - even for a first year.

And let's not forget this:

Harry told Hagrid about Snape’s lesson. Hagrid, like Ron, told Harry not to worry about it, that Snape liked hardly any of the students.

So, both Ron and Hagrid thought it normal behaviour for Snape.

Just to add - since I could not remember any particular instances where Harry remarks on Crabb and Goyle's potions I checked 'Willow' which has the quotes up through book 5 (in other words through OWLs and so ALL of the possible times Harry would actually see Crabb or Goyle make a potion.

There is not one comment by Harry (or Ron for that matter) on how bad C&Gs potions are. In fact, C&G laugh when Harry doesn't know the answer to the Bezoar question - which implies to me that THEY knew the answer. I'd say that Snape doesn't call them on their potions because they are not making unacceptable potions. Unless, of course, Willow missed a quote. If so, and you know of one, someone please post it.

Add to this, the only indication I could find where Goyle's cauldron exploded is the time when Harry threw fireworks into it. Since the Swelling Solution in it apparently swelled bit of people where it landed, he apparently brewed a successful potion in that case. Proven by the fact that the premade antidote that Snape had waiting worked and reduced all cases of the swellings.

As for the rest of the Slytherins, I think there were 4 of them in NEWT Potions (IF I recall correctly). That's 4 out of approx. 10 - almost half of the house made it into NEWT Potions, apparently with Outstandings on the OWLs (since nothing was put about ahead of time that there would be lowered requirements for it now that Sluggie was teaching)

I can't believe I'm saying this but more Snape, less Harry, please. :yuhup:

I'm sorry if you felt that was too much Harry, however I believe it was necessary to mention the scene as the previous poster said that Snape ignored Crabbe & Goyle's bad potions (thereby proving his favoritism), when as far as I can see we have no instances of such in the books. I will edit the comment about Harry's 'luck'. I hope that will suffice?

Brilliant posts hwyla, Dags! :clap:

I do not think one's status as a bully can be completely comparable to that of a traitor. A bully involves insulting, mocking, etc. to a person or people - whether a person is a bully is generally an opinion, not fact (as we are demonstrating with this debate). Meanwhile, I think being a traitor is much more straightforward.

That was not the comparison. If a character in the books felt an opinion, it must be canon and true for that character, you said. I disagreed for while that is true of certain instances, it is not of certain others. The example I gave you was to show that, if Harry thought Snape to be a traitor, that did not make Snape one in the Books, not even for the time Harry and others thought he was one, because Snape had reasons to act the way he did.

I feel the same about Snape being called a bully. I think there is enough in canon to show why Snape acted the way he did to Harry and indeed others and while Harry may have thought him to be nasty or Sirius may have thought him to be a DE (OOTP), or Ron may have called him a bully, he does not become one automatically, unless there are reasons to show that.

Assuming Snape was a cruel bully, how did Sirius allow him to teach his Godson Occlumency. Sirius was as insulting as could be to Snape, calling him a DE, and saying that even if Dumbledore believed him, he Sirius would not. And he still allowed Harry to learn Occlumency from Snape. Apart from Sirius's attitude, for me, this shows how much Sirius trusted Snape. That he believed Snape would teach Occlumency to Harry, properly and correctly, and would not abuse what would be exposure to very personal memories of Harry's.

Would Sirius send Harry to Snape if he thought Snape was a bully? For being a bully implies that Snape would probably delight in Harry's memories and use them to mock Harry. But while Sirius shows a lot of predictable hate; he is at a deeper level, trusting Snape, knowing that Snape would not bully Harry or ill treat him or misuse what he sees in Harry's mind. Seeing Harry's memories would make Harry vulnerable to Snape and Sirius was trusting Snape to do the right thing, even as he was insulting Snape and calling him a DE. I mean how strange is that?

Even after Harry saw the pensieve memories, Sirius was like 'How dare Snape stop the classes' than saying it was a good thing, because Snape was a bully.

I think not only Dumbledore, but also Sirius, Molly and other characters show a remarkable silence aqnd through that a trust, when it comes to Snape's teaching methods and interactions with their kids and other students in general. Only the students grumble at Snape's strictness; not the parents, who in canon have full faith in Snape; who believe Snape does not abuse their children. Molly asks Harry to address Snape with respect in OOTP (I forget which chapter) and she would not do that, if she thought Snape was abusing Harry and her kids.

Students always grumble at teachers who are demanding and who are no nonsense teachers. Just because Harry or Ron call Snape names in canon, that does not necessarily make it true IMO.

Therefore, I still believe that a character who thinks Snape is a bully cannot be wrong, since it is a personal opinion. However, my point is that if one individual thought Snape was a bully, then Snape should be qualified as a bully, at the least, to that character (e.g. Neville).

It depends on what the character did to deserve Snape's or indeed another professor's ire. Would you call McGonagall a bully and say she was cruel and abusive towards her students, for her very negative comment towards Neville in GOF, when she asked him to keep quiet and not show the other schools that he could perform a simple switching spell? (which hwyla pointed out in her post). And she makes quite a few of them over the years, towards Neville IMO.

As I have said (and will say later in this post), I do not think Snape's interactions with students interfered or could have (except in extreme cases) with his role as a spy.
Again, I do not think Snape's role as a spy would have ever been jeopardized by his teaching methods.

Could you say how?

No, Snape could have easily made an excuse as to why he could not deliver Harry. As I said before, mentioning Dumbledore's watch over Harry would likely have done the trick.

Well, Voldemort would ask the impossible and he would not care. Draco's job IMO was an example. If Snape was all kindness for example, Voldemort would simply ask Snape to bring Harry to him, using the trust harry had with Snape, and really he would not care about Dumbledore IMO.

Also, I do not necessarily think Snape should have sought to be best friends with Harry (I used this more as a hyperbolic situation). I simply claim that Snape could have been nicer (which would not be difficult, since he was so horrible to him) to Harry and many of the other students. I certainly believe Snape could be indifferent towards the Gryffindors without jeopardizing his role as spy (which I do not think was ever in danger, as I have already stated).

The thing is I believe Snape was okay with everyone. He was not simpering sweet; that was not his character, he was sarcastic, harsh and at times nasty. I find nothing wrong in that. But a bully? For me words like bully mean cruel and abusive. And I don't think Snape was like that, towards Harry or indeed anyone. I have given my explanation above for believing why.

I think I simply misunderstood your comment. I will not reply, since I think we will just go around in a circle, confusing ourselves! :lol:

Okay. :)

I think Snape willingly gave Voldemort any memory he desired, with a few exceptions, so Snape put up the proper defenses against those particular memories and was unharmed by the rest of Voldemort's probing.

Could very well be. I thought Legilimency could be both painful and painless depending upon the caster.

Then why did Voldemort not try to do this in the books? As I said, I do not think a friendly relationship between Snape and Harry would have changed the risk involved in Snape delivering Harry to Voldemort.

Because everyone knew Harry hated Snape and it looked as if Snape did not like Harry very much either IMO. If Voldemort asked Snape to bring Harry to him, Snape would have said, sorry, but the brat will not come anywhere near me; there is no way I can bring him to you. And all the DE kids will agree, because everyone knew Harry hated Snape (because of Snape's attitude); Harry hated Snape enough to wish Snape dead in HBP IMO.

Based on Dumbledore's comment about Slughorn's botched memory, I think memories can be tampered with much more undetectably than the example we see in the books - undetectable to the point that Voldemort would not know the difference, especially when those memories are controlled by a master Occlumens like Snape.

I disagree. There is this dense fog or an unnatural darkness when a memory is covered or tampered, which Voldemort having done this quite a few times would know at once IMO.

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

I agree. Snape's inner POV and purpose was not given in canon, but his methods were detailed and I too feel he behaved in a bullying manner toward the children. I don't feel it was necessary for Snape to humiliate Harry before the class, whatever his reason. Snape's comments had the Slytherins 'shaking with laughter', and so I feel he was aware of the impact of his behavior was having on Harry - Snape too had experienced being laughed at when he was young (OOTP) and realized how humiliating that could be, imo. I felt his treatment of Neville, Hermione and his subsequent treatment of Harry in this scene was further evidence of his character in this light. While I don't personally feel his purpose was to be instructive, even if I believed it was, I would still find his behavior/methodology inappropriately bullying in nature, imo. In CoS, The Whomping Willow, Snape is described as a "cruel, sarcastic" professor who was "disliked by everybody except the students from his own house." I agree with that passage based on Snape's behavior toward the children in the canon.

Thanks, TGW. ;)

In CoS, The Whomping Willow, Snape is described as a "cruel, sarcastic" professor who was "disliked by everybody except the students from his own house." I agree with that passage based on Snape's behavior toward the children in the canon.

Ah, thank you for reminding me of that one wick! :tu:

Professor Severus Snape was Harry’s least favorite teacher. Harry also happened to be Snape’s least favorite student. Cruel, sarcastic, and disliked by everybody except the students from his own house (Slytherin), Snape taught Potions.
“Maybe he’s ill!” said Ron hopefully.
“Maybe he’s left ,” said Harry, “because he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job again!”
“Or he might have been sacked !” said Ron enthusiastically. “I mean, everyone hates him —”
“Or maybe,” said a very cold voice right behind them, “he’s waiting to hear why you two didn’t arrive on the school train.”

So, the feeling was mutual. And please note the difference between the narrator's description ("disliked by everybody") and character's description ("everybody hates him").

The passing comments Snape happened to overhear did nothing to endear the pair to him further.

As for the students whose Head of House he was... you don't suppose they might have disliked him less than others because they got to see more than his 'teacher persona'? :hmm:

I think it's also important to remember that Snape is apparently from a section of the UK that IS known to be particularly harsh in the way they talk. It is considered a good thing to be brutally honest there. What's interesting is that Neville is from the same area.

Well, I'm from the UK (south east England) and I don't care for harsh talk from anyone. I love blunt-talking Northeners :D but that's not the same as harshness. :cool:

I often love Snape's sarcasm though. Yes, I do. :agree:

But I don't agree with how he handles Harry and Neville (or Hermione).

I hope this is not too much Harry :rockon: but both he and Severus are my favourite characters. And I'm pretty much on Harry's side in this debate about Snape's attitude to Harry in the classroom. (Except when Harry really does do something awful, like Sectumsempra'ing Draco!)

Severus just handled Harry completely wrong. Period. :cool: I believe it was his fault they got off to such a bad start. :cool:

Severus is an adult. Harry is an orphaned kid. The onus was on Severus not to jump to conclusions about the son of Lily and James. As Albus tries to remind him. :yuhup: "You see what you want to see, Severus." :sigh: Indeed. :no:

I also think Severus handled Neville completely wrong. The worst thing you can do to an incompetent pupil is publicly humiliate them in class. I know, because I've been a Neville. I love Snape to bits but he doesn't get a pass card from me on this one. I will call him on this just as I will call Minerva on the times when I suspect she is showing favouritism to her beloved Gryffindors.

And of course I don't think that Snape's classroom treatment of Harry and Neville makes him The Most Evil Character in Canon. Absolutely not! :no: For truly evil behaviour, I look to Bellatrix's sadism -- or Peter's treachery -- or Voldemort (obviously). Or to Lucius, who stood and laughed while a 14 year old Harry was brutally tortured by Voldemort.

And there is the other side of Severus: the side that was determined to protect Harry and aid Albus against Voldemort, for Lily's sake.

The schools in these books are NOT meant to be compared to the classrooms that the kids who read the books sit in.

That is quite true. Corporal punishment was outlawed many years ago in British schools. So Rowling's Muggle Britain is as much a fantasy world as her Wizarding World.

And Hogwarts is a 1950s British boarding school, basically. :lol:

Severus just handled Harry completely wrong. Period. :cool: I believe it was his fault they got off to such a bad start. :cool:

Snape's? Really? :huh:

It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell’s turban straight into Harry’s eyes — and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry’s forehead.
“Ouch!” Harry clapped a hand to his head.
“What is it?” asked Percy.
“N-nothing.”
The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher’s look — a feeling that he didn’t like Harry at all.
“Who’s that teacher talking to Professor Quirrell?” he asked Percy.
“Oh, you know Quirrell already, do you? No wonder he’s looking so nervous, that’s Professor Snape. He teaches Potions, but he doesn’t want to — everyone knows he’s after Quirrell’s job. Knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape.”
Harry watched Snape for a while, but Snape didn’t look at him again.

I must respectfully disagree...

So this puts the blame on Harry, for something Harry couldn't help. :shrug:

I'm not buying it. :cool: Never have, never will. :)

To be clear, I am not saying it's all Snape's fault either, that first misunderstanding. But I am saying he should have handled Harry better in the classroom, because he's the adult, in a position of power.

Neither am I claiming that Harry is never at fault as a pupil. :yuhup: Certainly not!

But Albus's words to Severus -- "You see what you want to see, Severus" -- are significant for me. :cool:

(And sometimes those words apply to Harry, of course.)

But Albus's words to Severus -- "You see what you want to see, Severus" -- are significant for me. :cool:

I couldn't agree more with the statement... but could Snape 'help it' if what he saw when he look at Harry was James? I've quoted their first academic experience with each other in one of my previous posts.

What we are discussing is whether Snape should have gone out of his way to treat Harry nicer than he treated his other students (please see Hagrid's comment on Snape's usual behaviour in the very same post I referred to), and my personal opinion...

He had no reason to

I couldn't agree more with the statement... but could Snape 'help it' if what he saw when he look at Harry was James?

Yes. Of course he could 'help' it. He's an adult. And while there may well be a wounded, damaged child Sev inside the adult Snape, an emotionally mature person would be able to put aside their emotional baggage and not behave as if young Harry is nothing more than James Mark Two. Whatever his history with the child's father, he should have been able to look past it. Why couldn't he see the Lily in Harry, for example, if he was unable to accept the James in Harry? (I think he does see the Lily in Harry at the very end, mind you. :tu: )

But then Snape is not written as that kind of mature, emotionally well-adjusted character. :lol: Which is fine, of course. :tu: I happen to like him as JKR wrote him :cool:

What we are discussing is whether Snape should have gone out of his way to treat Harry nicer than he treated his other students (please see Hagrid's comment on Snape's usual behaviour in the very same post I referred to), and my personal opinion...

He had no reason to

Of course he had no reason to treat Harry 'nicer'. That is not in dispute. We are not saying that Harry should have received 'special' treatment ... (although Albus often does, in fact, do this. :whistle: )

To me, Snape often singles Harry out -- and even if he did think the boy was in danger of becoming James Potter Mark Two, he goes about it in completely the wrong way.

In my opinion, obviously. :cool:

'-mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention seeking and impertinent -'

I wonder when this conversation took place between Snape and Dumbledore in PS/SS.

I am tempted to think it was after Halloween, after Snape's first class with Harry and the troll incident.

In Snape's first class, as Daggerstone pointed out, Harry's remark was pretty rude and defiant IMO.

'I don't know,' Harry said quietly. 'I think Hermione does, though, why don't you ask her?'

This would get the student into trouble here in India for rudeness. If a student does not know what the teacher is asking him or her; they simply sit/stand and blink like a dunderhead at the teacher, before venturing to say softly that, Sorry, they don't know. And then get the teacher's pearls of wisdom about why they should study everyday.

Answering like Harry would place the student immediately on the teacher's rude boys list IMO.

Mediocre - could be true at that point for Harry, for Dumbledore also says the same in a better manner. Reasonably talented he uses.

Arrogant as his father, delighted to find himself famous, attention seeking and impertinent - I think this is about Harry's retort to Snape in that first class, which made Snape think that Harry was aware of his fame and he was answering so because he thought he could get away with it. Snape could have very well thought just like his father before him.

A determined rule breaker - I think this could refer to the troll incident, where Harry and Ron instead of going to McGonagall, went in search of Hermione themselves and by doing so, were breaking rules and placing their lives in danger.

Dumbledore also says other teachers find him modest and likable. But then Harry never answered to them the way he did to Snape IMO.

In Snape's first class, as Daggerstone pointed out, Harry's remark was pretty rude and defiant IMO.

I'm on Harry's side in this 100%. Firstly, I don't find him that rude and defiant. He speaks quietly, not rudely. Secondly, it would actually be very tempting to be rude and defiant, when the teacher is making all sorts of unfounded and unfair assumptions about me. :no: I am not of the school of thought that thinks we should just sit there meekly and not challenge unfairness.

'I don't know,' Harry said quietly. 'I think Hermione does, though, why don't you ask her?'

This would get the student into trouble here in India for rudeness. If a student does not know what the teacher is asking him or her; they simply sit/stand and blink like a dunderhead at the teacher, before venturing to say softly that, Sorry, they don't know. And then get the teacher's pearls of wisdom about why they should study everyday.

I find Harry's reaction pretty darned reasonable, actually. And this just ignores the fact that Snape was simply being unfair -- assuming Harry was an arrogant know-it-all who hadn't bothered to prepare for his lesson properly, when the truth was that Harry had been unable to do so (because of living with the Dursleys). It's like Snape has already made his mind up, and Harry suffers the consequences.

Answering like Harry would place the student immediately on the teacher's rude boys list IMO.

And Snape gets a free passcard for all those incredible assumptions he is making about Harry in that first instance? :huh: This is just not ... fair, IMO. :yuhup:

Snape could have very well thought just like his father before him.

I'm sure that was what Snape thought. And it was his problem. He never gave Harry a fair chance, and Harry -- being only a kid -- often played right into that. So he ended up not giving Snape a fair chance either.

Dumbledore also says other teachers find him modest and likable. But then Harry never answered to them the way he did to Snape IMO.

That's because Snape gave him reason to. :sigh:

I am not about putting all the blame on Snape or all the blame on Harry. They're both my favourite characters. If I think Harry is being unfair, I will say so! And when I think Snape is being unfair, I will say so too.

I'm on Harry's side in this 100%. Firstly, I don't find him that rude and defiant. He speaks quietly, not rudely. Secondly, it would actually be very tempting to be rude and defiant, when the teacher is making all sorts of unfounded and unfair assumptions about me. :no: I am not of the school of thought that thinks we should just sit there meekly and not challenge unfairness.

I find Harry's reaction pretty darned reasonable, actually. And this just ignores the fact that Snape was simply being unfair -- assuming Harry was an arrogant know-it-all who hadn't bothered to prepare for his lesson properly, when the truth was that Harry had been unable to do so (because of living with the Dursleys). It's like Snape has already made his mind up, and Harry suffers the consequences.

As I pointed out, this is in India. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here 11 year olds are not allowed to speak their minds, and tell the teacher to ask his questions of another student, because they don't know the answer. It was not whether Harry was quiet or loud, those words would be taken as disrespectful 100 times out of a 100 times here.

I know in my son's school which is a Christian Convent run by Catholic Fathers, he or any other boy would get a very sarcastic telling off, if he dared to speak so to his teacher. And if he continued to do it, the parent would be called after a couple of times.

That to speak their minds and to tell a teacher to ask the question of another student is the right attitude, is a new and a novel concept for me, I'm afraid. It did not happen when I was a kid, (we would have had the ruler on our palm I guess); it did not happen when my daughter was in School and it's not happening now when my son is in Std VIII.

I am pretty much astonished that there are Schools and teachers who allow students to speak their minds in a pretty defiant manner and tell their teachers to ask students who know the answers instead of themselves, and they would not be thought of as rude or disrespectful by the teacher.

And Snape gets a free passcard for all those incredible assumptions he is making about Harry in that first instance? :huh: This is just not ... fair, IMO. :yuhup:

He is stating his opinion based on his classes with Harry and the troll incident IMO. I don't see anything wrong in that.

I'm sure that was what Snape thought. And it was his problem. He never gave Harry a fair chance, and Harry -- being only a kid -- often played right into that. So he ended up not giving Snape a fair chance either.

I don't see it as a problem, frankly. I see that Snape is worried Harry may turn reckless like James or Sirius, because he knows Harry cannot afford to be reckless, if he is to stay alive. He knows Voldemort is to return. After the troll incident, he may have felt worried that Harry could be rash or reckless which could get him killed, just like his father (I think Snape may be referring to the selection of SK, which in PS/SS everyone including Snape thought was Sirius; a decision which Snape believed got James and Lily killed). And when Harry ran after the troll, I think it must have made Snape worried IMO.

I am not about putting all the blame on Snape or all the blame on Harry. They're both my favourite characters. If I think Harry is being unfair, I will say so! And when I think Snape is being unfair, I will say so too.

In this conversation, I really don't think Snape was being unfair; as I wrote in the above post, I think he had his reasons and concerns and worries, which prompted him to speak as he did IMO. Which IMO is not wrong.

To me its not about blaming Harry or Severus but looking at the dynamic between them and how the same situation might look very different to each of them.

Like Hwyla's example at the first sorting - Harry’s reactions were simple reactions to what happened and fairly innocent ones at that, but I think the picture she painted of how it look to Severus was probably fairly accurate.

Yes. Of course he could 'help' it. He's an adult.

Adults aren't less susceptible to the effects of projection or transference than kids (one could say that their age actually counts against them! ;)) the whole point is that these are not conscious motivations but unconscious motivations and therefore are not available to the conscious mind to analyse unless something or someone causes them to become conscious. Others are often more aware of these then we are ourselves, so it isn’t surprising that readers can see when Severus is acting under their influence when He himself can’t – that’s normal :)

I know in my son's school which is a Christian Convent run by Catholic Fathers, he or any other boy would get a very sarcastic telling off, if he dared to speak so to his teacher. And if he continued to do it, the parent would be called after a couple of times.

Is there any recourse for a pupil if they suspect a teacher of treating them unfairly? :cool:

That to speak their minds and to tell a teacher to ask the question of another student is the right attitude, is a new and a novel concept for me, I'm afraid. It did not happen when I was a kid, (we would have had the ruler on our palm I guess); it did not happen when my daughter was in School and it's not happening now when my son is in Std VIII.

I'm not a teacher but British schools are a lot less strict than they used to be. Corporal punishment was made illegal here quite some time ago. No rulers on palms anymore. Admittedly, there are some who think we should bring all of that back :whistle:, and they may have a point, in that there seems to be far less respect for authority figures in Britain than there used to be. :shrug: Be that as it may, I don't think that rudeness is encouraged. :yuhup: But British schoolkids do strike me as being a lot more assertive than they were back in my day. :whistle:

He is stating his opinion based on his classes with Harry and the troll incident IMO. I don't see anything wrong in that.

I get that, but I still think his attitude is off-kilter. The trouble is, he seems always determined to think the worst of Harry, even if he is trying to protect the boy, deep down (which I don't doubt).

I don't see it as a problem, frankly. I see that Snape is worried Harry may turn reckless like James or Sirius, because he knows Harry cannot afford to be reckless, if he is to stay alive. He knows Voldemort is to return. After the troll incident, he may have felt worried that Harry could be rash or reckless which could get him killed, just like his father (I think Snape may be referring to the selection of SK, which in PS/SS everyone including Snape thought was Sirius; a decision which Snape believed got James and Lily killed). And when Harry ran after the troll, I think it must have made Snape worried IMO.

I understand this particular theory about Snape and in fact agree with a lot of it. The thing is, I can still agree with this being a plausible theory for Snape's motives and still disagree with Snape's methods in dealing with Harry ... and also think that Snape was often unfair. It is possible for me to hold all these ideas about Snape in tension.

In this conversation, I really don't think Snape was being unfair; as I wrote in the above post, I think he had his reasons and concerns and worries, which prompted him to speak as he did IMO. Which IMO is not wrong.

I think he was unfair to always see James in Harry. If he wasn't wrong about this, then why does Rowling have Albus chime in with his corrective, "You see what you want to see, Severus." I agree completely with Albus on this point.

Snape always sees Harry through a distorted filter. :shrug: Albus can see it ... and I, the reader, can see it too. And that is all part of the tapestry of tragic misunderstandings between Snape and Harry. They both contribute to it, sure: all I am doing is pointing out where Snape bears responsibility.

To me it's not about blaming Harry or Severus but looking at the dynamic between them and how the same situation might look very different to each of them.

Fine, but when Harry behaves wrongly, he rightly gets called out on it, as does any other character in canon. If I think Snape is acting like a jerk, I will call him out on it.

Like Hwyla's example at the first sorting - Harry’s reactions were simple reactions to what happened and fairly innocent ones at that, but I think the picture she painted of how it look to Severus was probably fairly accurate.

Again, sure, fine, but this, IMO, overlooks the fact that Severus had a real and genuine problem with bitterness from the past which wasn't Harry's fault.

Adults aren't less susceptible to the effects of projection or transference than kids (one could say that their age actually counts against them! ;)) the whole point is that these are not conscious motivations but unconscious motivations and therefore are not available to the conscious mind to analyse unless something or someone causes them to become conscious. Others are often more aware of these then we are ourselves, so it isn’t surprising that readers can see when Severus is acting under their influence when He himself can’t – that’s normal :)

Yep, I'm familiar with Transactional Analysis and projection/transference. :) I'm not so convinced that Severus was unaware of his own issues. :shrug:

That doesn't make me like the character any less. I understand that this thread is not about putting Snape on trial. Well, my interpretation of him is not on trial either. :cool:

*wonders about Snape's reaction to being psycho-analysed* :lol:

*imagines Severus on the couch* :D

And that it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work.
Then why not point out Hermione?
Do we know that he didn't ridicule Crabbe and Goyle as well? He certainly gives them detention for poor classwork, and we see very little of them compared to the Trio.
"You realize that, had anybody else failed to come to my office when I had told them repeatedly to be there, Draco --" <snip>
"I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"

That is in reference to Crabbe and Goyle's poor grades in Defense Against the Dark Arts:
"If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L. this time around, they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres -"
To me, this even appears that Snape is helping Crabbe and Goyle succeed - something he never did with, say, Neville.
I always took that as a way of deflating Harry's ego before it got out of control. Snape was witness to the excitement when Harry was Sorted, and, I think, chose a subtle method of ensuring that Harry realized that he couldn't assume he was great just because he was famous. A bit much, perhaps, but considering the way Harry's father behaved in school, I cannot blame Snape for doing this.
I certainly can blame him. If he was unfairly picking on Harry in the first Potions lesson just to deflate Harry's ego, Snape was being hugely presumptuous and rude. From everything we see in the narrative, Harry has no ego at that point, so Snape is simply deflating Harry's confidence and ability - a poor way to start off his relationship with Harry.
This is neither unfair nor bullying. In fact, not calling on the class know-it-all is more fair, since it means the other students have to work as well, rather than relying on one person to answer every question.
It may not be bullying, but I contend that it is definitely unfair for Hermione. If no one else is willing to answer the question, yet Hermione is standing up in eagerness, it would be fair to call on the one person who not only knows the answer, but is incredibly enthusiastic about the question.
How would Snape explain such sudden warm fuzziness towards any student, let alone a Gryffindor whose parents were in the Order? Draco would certainly notice, and certainly tell his father, who would not approve, and in turn would certainly inform the returned Voldemort about such aberrant behaviour. Snape believed Dumbledore when he said that Voldemort would return (this just after the attack on the Potters) and he needed to be fully prepared for the role that Dumbledore wanted him to play. In order to do that, Snape had to keep his cover intact.
Again, I do not think anyone suggests Snape and Harry should have a "warm, fuzzy" relationship. My point (and others', I believe) is that Snape could have treated Harry and the Gryffindors better than he did (that is, better than "horrible" and "torturous"). I think he could have easily done this without jeopardizing his cover.

Also, as I have said previously, Voldemort thought Snape was acting as a spy for him. Voldemort would likely think Snape a good spy for trying to be a bit kinder to the children of the Order, in order to gain Dumbledore's trust.
So, if one doesn't clasp one's hand to the painful head just what does pain look like from a distance? It looks like disgust.
You have invented Harry's look of disgust - it is not canon. Also, Harry does clap a hand to his head in the book:
It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes - and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead.
"Ouch!" Harry clapped a hand to his head.
"What is it?" asked Percy.
"N-nothing."
The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher's look - a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all.
I've also never seen why Harry is supposedly humiliated by these questions. Only Hermione knew the answers, so why is he supposed to be embarrassed since no one else apparently had read ahead either?
I do not think Harry felt as bad about not knowing the answers as he did about being singled out - and that is Snape's fault, in my opinion.
Neville blows up his cauldron and puts the entire class in danger - not exactly the kind of behaviour a teacher would 'encourage' or 'help'.
Yes, but I would not encourage Snape's behavior of calling Neville an "idiot boy". Yes, Neville made a mistake, but this was the first Potions lesson, there were bound to be some faults. I cannot justify Snape's verbal abuse of Neville in this scene.
So, both Ron and Hagrid thought it normal behaviour for Snape.
This is my point, though. I do not think Snape should have treated Harry or Neville specially, like he did with Malfoy. I just fail to see why he could not treat them, at the least, indifferently. Why did he have to torture them? To maintain his cover? I do not accept that explanation, since Snape's cover would, as I see it, not been in danger in the slightest by being indifferent towards Gryffindors.

As I have said before, I think Snape's was a personal choice to be horrible to most of his students, and that lessens his morality and his character considerably for me.
There is not one comment by Harry (or Ron for that matter) on how bad C&Gs potions are. In fact, C&G laugh when Harry doesn't know the answer to the Bezoar question - which implies to me that THEY knew the answer. I'd say that Snape doesn't call them on their potions because they are not making unacceptable potions. Unless, of course, Willow missed a quote. If so, and you know of one, someone please post it.
I do not think Crabbe and Goyle laughing with Draco in the first Potions class means they knew the answer - they just enjoyed watching Harry being picked on (much like Dudley's favorite thing to watch was Uncle Vernon bullying Harry).

I do agree that there is no direct evidence that Crabbe and Goyle were dismal at Potions. However, I base my believe on their poor potion-making ability on statements like, "They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as stupid as he was mean, might be thrown out, but he had passed, too."
At the least, I cannot imagine Crabbe and Goyle were better at Potions than Harry or Ron, yet Snape would always pick on Harry and Ron.
As for the rest of the Slytherins, I think there were 4 of them in NEWT Potions (IF I recall correctly). That's 4 out of approx. 10 - almost half of the house made it into NEWT Potions, apparently with Outstandings on the OWLs (since nothing was put about ahead of time that there would be lowered requirements for it now that Sluggie was teaching)
This is an interesting point, since, to me, it shows that Snape may have given his preferred students, the Slytherins, an edge - especially when compared to Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs (which only had one person from each House with "Outstanding" Potions grades).
As for the students whose Head of House he was... you don't suppose they might have disliked him less than others because they got to see more than his 'teacher persona'?
No, I believe it was because they received favoritism at the hands of Snape, rather than insults and ridicule.
Severus just handled Harry completely wrong. Period. I believe it was his fault they got off to such a bad start.
Snape's? Really?
You left off the most important sentence from that passage:

The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher's look - a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all.
From this, yes, I think Snape was the initiator of bad feelings between the pair of them. Harry's first thought of Snape was that "he didn't like Harry at all," and Snape confirms that pretense by singling out Harry and picking on him in the first (and subsequent) Potions class.
What we are discussing is whether Snape should have gone out of his way to treat Harry nicer than he treated his other students (please see Hagrid's comment on Snape's usual behaviour in the very same post I referred to), and my personal opinion...

He had no reason to
Firstly, I think the conversation may be skewed on this point. As I said earlier, I do not think I and others claim Snape should have given Harry special treatment - he simply should have treated Harry and the others nicer (less insults, sarcasm, ridicule, bullying, etc.). This does not mean that Snape should start handing out candy, but that Harry does not feel it to be torture to go to Potions class, and that Snape is not Neville's boggart.

The reason? Snape would be a better, more pleasant person, who would not hurt children's emotions and emotionally scar those children.

Is there any recourse for a pupil if they suspect a teacher of treating them unfairly? :cool:

Sure, there is; they can go to the higher authorities (the Principal or the School Board). But Snape's teaching methods are not very uncommon that they may be considered abuse IMO. They weren't thought of as cruel or bullying in the Books and in RL too I don't find it cruel or abusive, because many RL teachers are like Snape, especially when students talk to them like Harry did in that first class IMO. And students too, don't get affected too much IMO. They tend to forget about the teacher the moment they leave his class.

It takes a special kind of abuse for a student to fear going to class to face a teacher. I don't think Snape was like that.

I get that, but I still think his attitude is off-kilter. The trouble is, he seems always determined to think the worst of Harry, even if he is trying to protect the boy, deep down (which I don't doubt).

We don't know that. For he also allows Harry to get away with many things. Added to that are people very close to Harry and looking out exclusively for Harry. Like Dumbledore, Sirius (once he came out of Azkaban that is) Molly Weasley and none of them ever say Snape was behaving in any way wrongly to Harry in canon. So, to say Snape was a bully or off kilter or abusive means they allowed such abuse to happen. Which is a pretty serious accusation against them IMO.

Sirius, allowed Occlumency lessons, providing Snape all kinds of ammunition against Harry by allowing Snape to see into Harry's mind time and again. Molly affection would be called false, because she never stands up for Harry to Snape and in fact asks Harry to call him respectfully. And Dumbledore. He says he does not mind a hundred people dying if it would keep Harry alive, well and happy. And he, after Snape complains about Harry to him as early as PS/SS, allows Snape to be the same way, for the rest of the Books? When he loves Harry as his own?

For all the short comings I find in Sirius, I don't think he would allow Harry anywhere near a bully or an abusive person. Molly Weasley would take up Harry's cause if Snape was bullying him and Dumbledore surely would have asked Snape to stop it, if Snape had stepped out of line.

Important characters in canon don't say a word, because there is nothing to say IMO. I agree with those characters, because I too think there is nothing to say on Snape's bullying or torture or abuse, for I believe he never did any thing like that.

I think he was unfair to always see James in Harry. If he wasn't wrong about this, then why does Rowling have Albus chime in with his corrective, "You see what you want to see, Severus." I agree completely with Albus on this point.

Dumbledore may not agree with Snape. Perhaps he wanted Harry to take a few risks, so that it would prepare him (he says something to that effect in the TPT too). Snape and Dumbledore at that point view Harry's actions differently. Dumbledore knew a lot more than Snape. Snape had been thinking they were in a joint task to save Harry, but at that time, before the GOF blood transfusion, Dumbledore was looking at Harry's death at a future time IMO.

So Dumbledore's views were different from Snape's IMO.

Then why not point out Hermione?

I don't understand. :) Why should he?

Sure, there is; they can go to the higher authorities (the Principal or the School Board). But Snape's teaching methods are not very uncommon that they may be considered abuse IMO.

They weren't thought of as cruel or bullying in the Books

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Harry and Neville would likely not agree, and I do think their perspectives should not be completely discounted. I do think Snape was not unaccomplished at a certain amount of verbal cruelty. :whistle:

Once again, I can only say that I can hold various ideas about Snape in tension: that he is this incredibly brave dude who has a thankless task as Dumbledore's spy, is often exasperated by the behaviour of the boy he is meant to be protecting, and he can be quite a jerk. All at the same time.

And students too, don't get affected too much IMO. They tend to forget about the teacher the moment they leave his class.

I didn't. And neither did Harry: unfortunately, Snape's attitude to him only served to fuel the fires of resentment.

It takes a special kind of abuse for a student to fear going to class to face a teacher. I don't think Snape was like that.

Really? :huh: What then do you make of Neville fearing Snape? :shrug:

To be clear, I would not label Snape's treatment of Neville as abuse: abuse is a very strong word, and not one to be thrown about lightly. But I still don't approve of his way of dealing with a nervous, sensitive child. I should know, I used to be a Neville, and Snape's teaching methods would have shattered my confidence to shreds.

We don't know that. For he also allows Harry to get away with many things. Added to that are people very close to Harry and looking out exclusively for Harry. Like Dumbledore, Sirius (once he came out of Azkaban that is) Molly Weasley and none of them ever say Snape was behaving in any way wrongly to Harry in canon. So, to say Snape was a bully or off kilter or abusive means they allowed such abuse to happen. Which is a pretty serious accusation against them IMO.

But Snape could have really been abusing Harry, and Harry might not have reported it. Which is very common: victims of abuse often don't report the abuse. Why would that suddenly be Molly's, or Sirius's, or whoever's fault?

Let's be clear, I am not accusing Snape of anything so extreme. :wow: Just pointing out that just because Harry didn't tell other authority figures about what he perceived as Snape's unfair treatment, doesn't actually mean that Snape wasn't being unfair at times.

Sirius, allowed Occlumency lessons, providing Snape all kinds of ammunition against Harry by allowing Snape to see into Harry's mind time and again.

This wasn't Sirius's call. :) Snape teaching Harry Occlumency was Dumbledore's idea, and Dumbledore is Chief Honcho of the Order, not Sirius, so he calls the shots, not Sirius. And Sirius warns Severus not to give Harry a hard time in those lessons, if you remember. A request that has some justification, IMO. As a matter of fact, Severus doesn't actually give Harry that hard a time ... for him. :lol: At least up until Harry's foolishness in discovering SWM. :rolleyes:

Important characters in canon don't say a word, because there is nothing to say IMO. I agree with those characters, because I too think there is nothing to say on Snape's bullying or torture or abuse, for I believe he never did any thing like that.

But some of Snape's exchanges with Harry take place in private between them. Harry doesn't report every single thing Snape ever says to him, or what he perceives as Snape's unfairness.

So Dumbledore's views were different from Snape's IMO.

They certainly were, if we're talking about his views on Harry. Personally, I find Dumbledore's line, "You see what you want to see, Severus", very telling. I don't doubt that Snape is genuinely committed to protecting Harry but at the same time he also suffers a sort of myopia about the boy.

Note that IF one goes back to that scene, he merely points out to the other kids an example of what they should emulate when preparing their own ingredients. Not really any different than Flitwick pointing out when Hermione got the levitation spell right or when Minerva excitedly pointed out how well Hermione did with her first transfiguration. The difference? Minerva gave points to Gryffindor, Snape did not give points to Slytherin. How does that show favoritism?

I think it shows that Minerva practiced favoritism. :lol:

In CoS, The Whomping Willow, Snape is described as a "cruel, sarcastic" professor who was "disliked by everybody except the students from his own house." I agree with that passage based on Snape's behavior toward the children in the canon.
That is still Harry's 12-year-old opinion, and he hardly knows "everybody" from the other houses. Percy Weasley for instance never says that he dislikes Snape, and neither does Luna Lovegood. Luna criticizes Hagrid (Harry's friend), but not Snape, which I find really interesting.

That is still Harry's 12-year-old opinion, and he hardly knows "everybody" from the other houses. Percy Weasley for instance never says that he dislikes Snape, and neither does Luna Lovegood. Luna criticizes Hagrid (Harry's friend), but not Snape, which I find really interesting.

Actually, I would concur with that. It's not like every single student at Hogwarts hates Snape. :cool: I don't think canon presents us with that.

In Snape's first class, as Daggerstone pointed out, Harry's remark was pretty rude and defiant IMO.

'I don't know,' Harry said quietly. 'I think Hermione does, though, why don't you ask her?'

This would get the student into trouble here in India for rudeness. If a student does not know what the teacher is asking him or her; they simply sit/stand and blink like a dunderhead at the teacher, before venturing to say softly that, Sorry, they don't know. And then get the teacher's pearls of wisdom about why they should study everyday.

Answering like Harry would place the student immediately on the teacher's rude boys list IMO.

When I first read Harry's answer to Snape I was very surprised, having seen the film first. I was surprised at his boldness and his rudeness. I was also surprised that an abused orphan who has just entered a new world should have such boldness. I would have expected such a child to be - well more like Hermione perhaps and desperately looking to fit in in this new world. But Harry isn't like that. He doesn't have to try to fit in because everyone knows him and is in awe of him - even the teachers. Perhaps Snape is a little right afterall. Perhaps the fame had gone to Harry's head a little (for which I do not blame Harry at all). Perhaps Harry did need to be brought down a peg or two - afterall he had just found out that he was rich and that he was considered a hero, which would be enough to turn anybody's head especially if they are only 11 years old.

I know that I would never have answered as boldly as Harry - especially in my first week at a new school - and I am certainly no shrinking violet. I would also say that at my school such an answer would probably have earnt a detention.

I actually was late for my first lesson a senior school because I got lost and got a thorough tonuge lashing. I persoanlly think that Harry was lucky to only loose one point for cheek. Very lucky considering it was Snape.

I also think that Harry would not have responded to McGonagall in the same way had she questioned him in a similar manner. It seems to me that Harry having listened to what others (notably Percy) have said about Snape is not going to afford him the same respect that he shows his own head of house.

As such it sets up their relationship in a way that is to me anyway incredibly similar to the relationship of Darcy and Elizabeth at the beginning of Pride and Prejudice, with both party's forming an opinion based on limited knowledge from unreliable sources, and like these characters I believe both Severus and Harry learn the truth about each other and learn to appreciate each other.

Another parallel I see is that Darcy ensures that Wickham marries Lydia solely because he loves Elizabeth, even though he hates Wickham. It is a good deed done for someone he loves. In the same way Severus protects Harry for Lily even though he hates James. Again, it is a good deed done for someone he loves. There is a subtle difference though and that is that Darcy is still in a position to win Elizabeth's love whereas Severus was not in a postion to win Lily's love because she was dead.

Sorry I'm rambling again :yuhup:


Adults aren't less susceptible to the effects of projection or transference than kids (one could say that their age actually counts against them! ;)) the whole point is that these are not conscious motivations but unconscious motivations and therefore are not available to the conscious mind to analyse unless something or someone causes them to become conscious. Others are often more aware of these then we are ourselves, so it isn’t surprising that readers can see when Severus is acting under their influence when He himself can’t – that’s normal :)
Thank you Kittling!! This is something I have always thought about Severus but have been unable to express in intelligible English!

I'm pretty much with kitt on this one. IMO, Harry's wince at the feast was significant in that it looked like disgust to Snape. Harry couldn't help wincing when he's in pain, but Severus, who was probably carrying all sorts of emotional baggage anyway, saw it that way. When Harry went to class and behaved how he felt he reasonably should, Snape saw differently. This seems to become a pattern. :lol:

Whether they could could help their feelings or not is riddled with all sort of other questions, especially for Snape. As an adult, he is expected to be able to move past his own biases because we expect that after so many years in this world, an adult will have the psychological tools to do so. After all, most adults can very easily do this if they're reasonably aware of their emotions and are able to control them effectively. Whether Snape had this ability is rather up in the air. He appears not to have the healthiest mindset when it comes to his own feelings, and those infrequent explosions of rage he experiences speak to that.

I don't think he behaves too well a great deal of the time, but I find it hard to condemn him completely without really looking at it through more than one angle. Occasionally, all those angles end up looking very bad anyway, but it's worth it to consider what is really going through his head.

*imagines Severus on the couch* :D

:rotfl: I would pay to see that! Poor Sev. :elaugh:

When I first read Harry's answer to Snape I was very surprised, having seen the film first. I was surprised at his boldness and his rudeness. I was also surprised that an abused orphan who has just entered a new world should have such boldness. I would have expected such a child to be - well more like Hermione perhaps and desperately looking to fit in in this new world.

But Rowling's portrayal of Harry's childhood is not a psychologically realistic one. (It is plausible in terms of what she does with Harry as a literary hero.) In RL, a child in Harry's position, who had suffered the abuse he had at the hands of the Dursleys, would be far more subdued and cowed and wounded than Harry actually is in canon. (And who knows, maybe Snape would have picked up on those clues had the facts about Harry's awful childhood been more obvious ... or if Dumbledore had seen fit to share that information with the rest of his staff.)

If this is too much Harry, I will move the discussion to the Harry thread.:cool:

But Harry isn't like that. He doesn't have to try to fit in because everyone knows him and is in awe of him - even the teachers. Perhaps Snape is a little right afterall. Perhaps the fame had gone to Harry's head a little (for which I do not blame Harry at all). Perhaps Harry did need to be brought down a peg or two - afterall he had just found out that he was rich and that he was considered a hero, which would be enough to turn anybody's head especially if they are only 11 years old.

But, Cathy, we see from the text that the fame had not gone to Harry's head. He was bewildered to find himself famous. Any arrogance on the child's part was Snape's assumption ... and personally I find it to be a wrong one. :)

When I first read PS/SS, I was rooting for Harry against the 'nasty teacher'. :whistle:

By the end of PS/SS, I was thoroughly intrigued by the 'nasty teacher'. :cool:

:rotfl: I would pay to see that! Poor Sev. :elaugh:

Poor analyst. :lol: Sev would run rings round him or her. :eyebrows: I'd pay good money to see that. :angel:

Great post CathyWeasley. :tu: :)

Really? :huh: What then do you make of Neville fearing Snape? :shrug:

I thought it was his own insecurity caused by his family constantly comparing him to his parents and telling him he failed to meet those high expectations. The first class where Neville made a mistake and exploded his potion and melted his cauldron, made him very scared and nervous, which in turn made that class a nightmare for him, because of his own insecurity. And I think he was very scared of potions, where a small mistake could make potions explode and cause damage/harm to himself and others. Snape as Professor for that class was his boggart IMO.

Ideally Neville should have been in a different class, where his rather special needs could be met, where he would not meet teachers like McGonagall or Snape. In Hogwarts that could not be done.

And still Neville won in the end and how. :love: I saw his killing of Nagini, who killed Snape as awesome; perhaps JKR telling us that the Snape boggart was Neville's insecurity manifesting as his greatest fear of a subject which terrorised him, because he got covered in boils in his first ever class. Killing Nagini, IMO was JKR's way of showing Snape did nothing to feed Neville's fear or insecurity; did not bully him IMO.

To be clear, I would not label Snape's treatment of Neville as abuse: abuse is a very strong word, and not one to be thrown about lightly.

I see the word bully as equal to abuse, which is why I don't agree Snape was one.

But Snape could have really been abusing Harry, and Harry might not have reported it. Which is very common: victims of abuse often don't report the abuse. Why would that suddenly be Molly's, or Sirius's, or whoever's fault?

If JKR intended Snape to be abusing/bullying kids, I am sure she would have made a statement through one of the other characters. The absence of such a statement by people like Sirius, Molly and Dumbledore, makes me feel Snape was not bullying.

But some of Snape's exchanges with Harry take place in private between them. Harry doesn't report every single thing Snape ever says to him, or what he perceives as Snape's unfairness.

You will have to give me the incidents from the Book for me to make my answer. :) IN private, I feel Snape let Harry get away with a lot.

That is still Harry's 12-year-old opinion, and he hardly knows "everybody" from the other houses. Percy Weasley for instance never says that he dislikes Snape, and neither does Luna Lovegood. Luna criticizes Hagrid (Harry's friend), but not Snape, which I find really interesting.

Well I wasn't highlighting this part of the statement, although I feel it was written in narrative form. I was giving the entire quote for reference, but I feel that the part about Snape's character is right on the money. To me, Snape's behavior toward the children was, as put forth in CoS, cruel and sarcastic. I felt that JKR showed a sufficient amount of Snape's behavior toward the kids for me to reach a conclusion in that regard, without having to show him interact with every student at Hogwarts. I feel Snape's motivations are interesting to consider, and I respect the fact that some find them relevant to the analysis of Snape's behavior toward the children, but they do not play a role in my analysis because to me, Snape should not have behaved in that manner for any reason. I do feel Snape singled out Harry often, publicly and privately, and I don't feel that his transference of feelings toward his father was a valid exercise. Not only because I think it unfair to Harry, but also because I feel Snape miscontrued Harry and his father's characters and I disagree with his opinion on that as well. I also feel that Snape displayed negative behavior toward Harry unreasonably at times; like breaking the flask and giving him a zero mark in OOTP or telling him that to Snape, Harry was nothing more than a nasty little boy in GoF. And I feel that Snape took occassion to lay blame on Harry invalidly or presumptively; like blaming him for not telling Neville about the quills in PS/SS or interrupting the escalating verbal battle between Harry and Draco in OOTP after the MOM battle and Snape focusing his attention on Harry being in the wrong, while ignoring Draco's behavior. And I feel Snape's response to Harry was inappropriately exaggerated and harmful; like in OOTP when Harry was caught looking in the pensieve and during Snape's escape from Hogwarts in HBP. Hence, while respecting the views of others, in my opinion, CoS was a correct statement of Snape's cummulative treatment of the children, and particularly Harry.

Ideally Neville should have been in a different class, where his rather special needs could be met, where he would not meet teachers like McGonagall or Snape. In Hogwarts that could not be done.

Agreed. :tu: And yes, Minerva could be just as hard on Neville as Snape was ... good call. :tu:

Killing Nagini, IMO was JKR's way of showing Snape did nothing to feed Neville's fear or insecurity; did not bully him IMO.

I find that a huge stretch, personally. Of course I'm jazzed that Nev killed Nagini. But Neville's newly developed courage didn't have anything to do with Snape! Snape had not been his teacher for quite some time. So I don't see any connection there.

If JKR intended Snape to be abusing/bullying kids, I am sure she would have made a statement through one of the other characters.

She doesn't need to. She said so herself in interviews. :shrug:

Look, I get that you don't agree with her on this. I don't always agree with her either, both about Snape and other characters in her books. But Severus Snape is her original construct, and while I agree that a character can become bigger than an author's original intentions, I am not going to completely discount her opinion in the shaping of that character.

Yeah, there's more to Snape than his bullying. Sure there is. I just cannot understand why it is apparently so very difficult for a Snape fan like me to say that the guy has faults. Every single character in the Potterverse has faults. Severus is hardly the exception.

You will have to give me the incidents from the Book for me to make my answer. :)

This incident has been quoted a number of times on this thread in the past. It's one I found it particularly difficult to forgive Severus for, at the time of reading it:

"You might be labouring under the delusion that the entire wizarding world is impressed with you," Snape went on, so quietly that no one else could hear him, "but I don't care how many times your picture appears in the papers. To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him." (GoF, Chapter 27)

In private, I feel Snape let Harry get away with a lot.

Sometimes he did, yes. Particularly after Voldemort had arisen again.

Assuming Snape was a cruel bully, how did Sirius allow him to teach his Godson Occlumency. Sirius was as insulting as could be to Snape, calling him a DE, and saying that even if Dumbledore believed him, he Sirius would not. And he still allowed Harry to learn Occlumency from Snape. Apart from Sirius's attitude, for me, this shows how much Sirius trusted Snape. That he believed Snape would teach Occlumency to Harry, properly and correctly, and would not abuse what would be exposure to very personal memories of Harry's.
I do not think this was a matter of Sirius trusting Snape, but Sirius trusting Dumbledore. If Dumbledore had requested for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, Sirius would accept Dumbledore's order, in my opinion.
Only the students grumble at Snape's strictness; not the parents, who in canon have full faith in Snape; who believe Snape does not abuse their children. Molly asks Harry to address Snape with respect in OOTP (I forget which chapter) and she would not do that, if she thought Snape was abusing Harry and her kids.
Again, I think it is the parents' trust in Dumbledore, who allows Snape to teach, that appeases them about Snape's teaching methods - not their "full faith in Snape."
Students always grumble at teachers who are demanding and who are no nonsense teachers. Just because Harry or Ron call Snape names in canon, that does not necessarily make it true IMO.
I agree. McGonagall is the perfect example. Harry and Ron grumble at the workload McGonagall gives. However, they do not call her a "git" and other words to describe loathing, which they do with Snape. To me, that suggests that students like Harry and Ron truly hate Snape, largely because Snape has fueled that loathing.
It depends on what the character did to deserve Snape's or indeed another professor's ire. Would you call McGonagall a bully and say she was cruel and abusive towards her students, for her very negative comment towards Neville in GOF, when she asked him to keep quiet and not show the other schools that he could perform a simple switching spell?
No, I would not, largely because we do not see any character, in canon, express hatred or fear towards McGonagall for those outbursts. She is not viewed as a bully by students (especially since those comments are fairly rare compared to Snape's frequency), whereas Snape is.
Could you say how?
Certainly:
Voldemort stationed Snape at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore, with the cover of teaching for the headmaster. If Snape was kind to all of his students, I do not think Voldemort would dispute Snape's behavior, since Voldemort would see Snape as fulfilling the proper role to remain in "Dumbledore's pocket." Contrarily, I think Snape could also behave horribly to his students (in Voldemort's perspective), as long as Dumbledore kept Snape as a teacher. As I see it, Snape could teach in any way he wanted - it was his choice to be "horrible" to Harry, Neville, and a lot of other students.
Also, as I have said previously, Voldemort thought Snape was acting as a spy for him. Voldemort would likely think Snape a good spy for trying to be a bit kinder to the children of the Order, in order to gain Dumbledore's trust.
Well, Voldemort would ask the impossible and he would not care. Draco's job IMO was an example. If Snape was all kindness for example, Voldemort would simply ask Snape to bring Harry to him, using the trust harry had with Snape, and really he would not care about Dumbledore IMO.
If Voldemort was willing to "ask the impossible," he would have done so in the books, I think. However, he only dared to try to kidnap Harry from under Dumbledore's nose once, and that was with the help of a Death Eater believed to be dead. I think it is clear from the text that Voldemort did care about Dumbledore, and he was not going to "ask the impossible" of Snape to deliver Harry Potter to him.
The thing is I believe Snape was okay with everyone. He was not simpering sweet; that was not his character, he was sarcastic, harsh and at times nasty. I find nothing wrong in that. But a bully? For me words like bully mean cruel and abusive. And I don't think Snape was like that, towards Harry or indeed anyone. I have given my explanation above for believing why.
I agree that he "was not simpering sweet" because "that was not his character." However, I believe that Snape chose not to be "simpering sweet," and his character was built upon that ideal. His insulting attitude towards students was a choice, and he could have easily changed if he had wanted to. My problem with this is that his cruelty towards students had negative effects on some of the children, and I cannot overlook how he chose to be derogatory and, sometimes, cruel.
Because everyone knew Harry hated Snape and it looked as if Snape did not like Harry very much either IMO. If Voldemort asked Snape to bring Harry to him, Snape would have said, sorry, but the brat will not come anywhere near me; there is no way I can bring him to you. And all the DE kids will agree, because everyone knew Harry hated Snape (because of Snape's attitude); Harry hated Snape enough to wish Snape dead in HBP IMO.
I still fail to see how Voldemort would expect Snape to deliver him Harry under Dumbledore's nose, even if Snape was best friends with Harry.
I disagree. There is this dense fog or an unnatural darkness when a memory is covered or tampered, which Voldemort having done this quite a few times would know at once IMO.
The only tampered memory we see is Slughorn's poorly adjusted one:
"He has tried to rework the memory to show himself in a better light, obliterating those parts which he does not wish e to see. It is, as you will have noticed, very crudely done, and that is all to the good, for it shows that the true memory is still there beneath the alterations."
Dumbledore's last sentence is most telling to me, since it suggests that memories can be tampered much more effectively, to a point where one could not notice that the true memory "Is still there beneath the alterations."

Therefore, I still believe Snape could have effectively "meddled with his own recollections" in order to hide jeopardizing information from Voldemort.
Then why not point out Hermione?
I don't understand. :) Why should he?
hwyla said "it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work," referring to Snape "telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs" (SS, Ch. 8, Pg. 139).

My point is that Snape never did this with Hermione's work, even though it was almost always perfect. Instead, he always just passed by her potion without comment, meaning there was nothing wrong with the potion. If Snape was simply being a good teacher by pointing out Draco's "superior work," then he should have done the same with Hermione's potions, I believe. To me, that is favoritism and hugely unfair to Hermione.
I'm pretty much with kitt on this one. IMO, Harry's wince at the feast was significant in that it looked like disgust to Snape. Harry couldn't help wincing when he's in pain, but Severus, who was probably carrying all sorts of emotional baggage anyway, saw it that way. When Harry went to class and behaved how he felt he reasonably should, Snape saw differently. This seems to become a pattern.
But Harry claps a hand to his head during the feast, he does not wince. If Snape mistook that for disgust from Harry, then I think Snape was simply looking for a reason to hate Harry.
And yes, Minerva could be just as hard on Neville as Snape was ... good call.
I agree that McGonagall was just as stern with Neville as Snape was. However, McGonagall, at least, refrained from calling Neville names, like "idiot boy." Yes, she negatively remarked about Neville's inability to perform a Switching Spell, but I do not think she was ever as demeaning to Neville as Snape was - especially given that it was the very first Potions class that Snape called Neville an "idiot."

Yeah, there's more to Snape than his bullying. Sure there is. I just cannot understand why it is apparently so very difficult for a Snape fan like me to say that the guy has faults. Every single character in the Potterverse has faults. Severus is hardly the exception.

I believe he has faults too, as do all the characters, in my opinion. However, just because we agree that he has faults, we may not agree on the nature or severity of those faults. So while I may not feel that he was a bully or an abuser, I also do not believe that he could do no wrong either. I think there is room for a difference of opinion about the character even amongst his fans. We aren't all the same person after all. ;)

I do not think this was a matter of Sirius trusting Snape, but Sirius trusting Dumbledore. If Dumbledore had requested for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, Sirius would accept Dumbledore's order, in my opinion.

Again, I think it is the parents' trust in Dumbledore, who allows Snape to teach, that appeases them about Snape's teaching methods - not their "full faith in Snape."

I agree. McGonagall is the perfect example. Harry and Ron grumble at the workload McGonagall gives. However, they do not call her a "git" and other words to describe loathing, which they do with Snape. To me, that suggests that students like Harry and Ron truly hate Snape, largely because Snape has fueled that loathing.

No, I would not, largely because we do not see any character, in canon, express hatred or fear towards McGonagall for those outbursts. She is not viewed as a bully by students (especially since those comments are fairly rare compared to Snape's frequency), whereas Snape is.

Certainly:



If Voldemort was willing to "ask the impossible," he would have done so in the books, I think. However, he only dared to try to kidnap Harry from under Dumbledore's nose once, and that was with the help of a Death Eater believed to be dead. I think it is clear from the text that Voldemort did care about Dumbledore, and he was not going to "ask the impossible" of Snape to deliver Harry Potter to him.

I agree that he "was not simpering sweet" because "that was not his character." However, I believe that Snape chose not to be "simpering sweet," and his character was built upon that ideal. His insulting attitude towards students was a choice, and he could have easily changed if he had wanted to. My problem with this is that his cruelty towards students had negative effects on some of the children, and I cannot overlook how he chose to be derogatory and, sometimes, cruel.

I still fail to see how Voldemort would expect Snape to deliver him Harry under Dumbledore's nose, even if Snape was best friends with Harry.

The only tampered memory we see is Slughorn's poorly adjusted one:
"He has tried to rework the memory to show himself in a better light, obliterating those parts which he does not wish e to see. It is, as you will have noticed, very crudely done, and that is all to the good, for it shows that the true memory is still there beneath the alterations."
Dumbledore's last sentence is most telling to me, since it suggests that memories can be tampered much more effectively, to a point where one could not notice that the true memory "Is still there beneath the alterations."

Therefore, I still believe Snape could have effectively "meddled with his own recollections" in order to hide jeopardizing information from Voldemort.

hwyla said "it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work," referring to Snape "telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs" (SS, Ch. 8, Pg. 139).

My point is that Snape never did this with Hermione's work, even though it was almost always perfect. Instead, he always just passed by her potion without comment, meaning there was nothing wrong with the potion. If Snape was simply being a good teacher by pointing out Draco's "superior work," then he should have done the same with Hermione's potions, I believe. To me, that is favoritism and hugely unfair to Hermione.

But Harry claps a hand to his head during the feast, he does not wince. If Snape mistook that for disgust from Harry, then I think Snape was simply looking for a reason to hate Harry.

I agree that McGonagall was just as stern with Neville as Snape was. However, McGonagall, at least, refrained from calling Neville names, like "idiot boy." Yes, she negatively remarked about Neville's inability to perform a Switching Spell, but I do not think she was ever as demeaning to Neville as Snape was - especially given that it was the very first Potions class that Snape called Neville an "idiot."

Very good points every one.:tu: If Snape had just been strict it would not have been bad, but IMO he went too far and that to me casts a large shadow over him. But you know I don't think anyone's poor opinion of him affected too much.

I think there is room for a difference of opinion about the character even amongst his fans.

I think so too. :cool: :tu:

We aren't all the same person after all. ;)

Agreed. :D :)

I find that a huge stretch, personally. Of course I'm jazzed that Nev killed Nagini. But Neville's newly developed courage didn't have anything to do with Snape! Snape had not been his teacher for quite some time. So I don't see any connection there.

I meant JKR. I thought perhaps she was telling her readers that Snape did not bully Neville, by making him kill Nagini, who had killed Snape. I just thought there could be a reason Neville took care of this particular horcrux.

She doesn't need to. She said so herself in interviews. :shrug:

Yes. I disagree with her on this. If she wanted to make Snape a bully, she should have made him mock Harry's memories or thrown the Map into the fire in POA or something like that. She IMO showed a very different Snape to me in the Books from what she wanted to, perhaps.

Look, I get that you don't agree with her on this. I don't always agree with her either, both about Snape and other characters in her books. But Severus Snape is her original construct, and while I agree that a character can become bigger than an author's original intentions, I am not going to completely discount her opinion in the shaping of that character.

I see her interviews as her opinions. Changeable IMO. She could say something entirely different tomorrow. I'll stick to what I can understand from the Books for now. :D I love to read her interviews and agree on a lot of things with her, but also disagree on a lot of things.

Yeah, there's more to Snape than his bullying. Sure there is. I just cannot understand why it is apparently so very difficult for a Snape fan like me to say that the guy has faults. Every single character in the Potterverse has faults. Severus is hardly the exception.

I do think Snape has faults. I just don't think bullying students was one of them. :)

This incident has been quoted a number of times on this thread in the past. It's one I found it particularly difficult to forgive Severus for, at the time of reading it:

"You might be labouring under the delusion that the entire Wizarding world is impressed with you," Snape went on, so quietly that no one else could hear him, "but I don't care how many times your picture appears in the papers. To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him." (GoF, Chapter 27)


"You might be labouring under the delusion that the entire Wizarding world is impressed with you," Snape went on, so quietly that no one else could hear him, "but I don't care how many times your picture appears in the papers. To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him."

.......

'So, I give you fair warning Potter,' Snape continued in a softer and more dangerous voice, 'pint sized celebrity or not - if I catch you breaking into my office one more time -'

'I haven't been anywhere near your office!' said Harry, angrily, forgetting his feigned deafness.

'Don't lie to me,' Snape hissed, his fathomless eyes boring into Harry's. 'Boomslang skin, Gillyweed. Both come from my private stores and I know who stole them.'

.......

'I don't know what you are talking about,' Harry lied coldly.

'You were out of bed on the night my office was broken into! I know it Potter!'
This happened soon after the second task and before the third one where Sirius, Snape and everyone was expecting something evil to happen. Sirius says so to that effect; he feels whoever placed Harry's name in the Cup will try something in the 3rd task.

This also happened after the Gillyweed and Boomslang skin was stolen from Snape's stores. Boomslang is used in the polyjuice potion which Snape knew was prepared by them (she was in the infirmary as a half cat half human and I presume all teachers would have known about the polyjuice mess) in their second year. Snape could have suspected they might be planning something this time too, for Harry was awake the night his stores was broken into. It is a reasonable assumption for Snape to make with the 2nd year background IMO (The Egg and the Eye - GOF)

Plus the Gillyweed Harry used in his second task, was also missing from his stores, which would make Snape very angry when he saw Harry using it; he would have concluded Harry stole it somehow or asked someone else to do it for him IMO.

That was rule breaking. Stealing from Snape's private stores. A very much punishable offence IMO. Moreover, the boomslang skin could be dangerous, if the trio took it into their heads to make the polyjuice potion, at a time Harry was in danger of his name placed in the CUP for an unknown purpose and because Snape's dark mark was getting stronger.

I think Snape was warning/telling him off about all these; and he was mad Harry was stealing from his private stores.

I do not think this was a matter of Sirius trusting Snape, but Sirius trusting Dumbledore. If Dumbledore had requested for Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, Sirius would accept Dumbledore's order, in my opinion.

When he felt Snape was a bully? I disagree, even if that view paints Sirius in a very poor light. :D

Again, I think it is the parents' trust in Dumbledore, who allows Snape to teach, that appeases them about Snape's teaching methods - not their "full faith in Snape."

When kids come home complaining about this teacher who was always scolding them or taking away points, I think parents generally listen and see if it serious or if it can be handled by the student himself. If the parents don't approach Dumbledore, then they must feel it was something their kids could handle or because the kids has nothing to complain in the first place IMO.

No, I would not, largely because we do not see any character, in canon, express hatred or fear towards McGonagall for those outbursts. She is not viewed as a bully by students (especially since those comments are fairly rare compared to Snape's frequency), whereas Snape is.

Similar actions need to be categorised together. Unless one sees the background of each action and decides those are good, bad or ugly, depending on the situation. In that case Snape is not a bully, even if certain characters say he was one IMO.

If Voldemort was willing to "ask the impossible," he would have done so in the books, I think.

He could not because he knew from Snape's memories the mistrust Harry had with Snape IMO.

I still fail to see how Voldemort would expect Snape to deliver him Harry under Dumbledore's nose, even if Snape was best friends with Harry.

In whatever way. Voldemort does not care about that; the means. He wants the results (like with Draco). But here he could not ask Snape to do anything at all. That door was closed to him IMO.

The only tampered memory we see is Slughorn's poorly adjusted one:
There is another one; MOrfins. Where Voldemort himself had done the tampering. A dark unnatural something.
As he did so, an unnatural darkness fell, extinguishing Voldemort's lamp, Morfin's candle, extinguishing everything....
And in Lord Voldemort's Request chapter Hokey also has her mind altered by Voldemort. I think Voldemort would know if memories are tampered with.
My point is that Snape never did this with Hermione's work, even though it was almost always perfect. Instead, he always just passed by her potion without comment, meaning there was nothing wrong with the potion.
IMO this was not a fault. Added, it will look to Draco, Lucius Malfoy's son, that a muggleborn (they would read mudblood) was never praised by Snape even if she got a perfect potion.
I believe he has faults too, as do all the characters, in my opinion. However, just because we agree that he has faults, we may not agree on the nature or severity of those faults. So while I may not feel that he was a bully or an abuser, I also do not believe that he could do no wrong either. I think there is room for a difference of opinion about the character even amongst his fans. We aren't all the same person after all. ;)

:agree: :tu:

Is it just me, or does it seem like this thread has a lot of "Harry deserved what he got because he was a nasty kid"?

To me, Snape often singles Harry out -- and even if he did think the boy was in danger of becoming James Potter Mark Two, he goes about it in completely the wrong way.

Of course, it appears that Snape is singling Harry out; the story is told from Harry's POV, The Harry Filter (tm). I believe Harry is pretty oblivious of other students who aren't in his immediate circle; he has no idea what's going on in the rest of Snape's classes so we don't either.

[staff edit]

That was rule breaking. Stealing from Snape's private stores. A very much punishable offence IMO. Moreover, the boomslang skin could be dangerous, if the trio took it into their heads to make the polyjuice potion, at a time Harry was in danger of his name placed in the CUP for an unknown purpose and because Snape's dark mark was getting stronger.

I think Snape was warning/telling him off about all these; and he was mad Harry was stealing from his private stores.
I completely understand Snape's deductions - I probably would have concluded the same as he. How would Snape know that Dobby had stolen the Gillyweed? He could not have known. Therefore, I do agree that Snape was in the right when he accused Harry of stealing from him. I do not agree, though, that calling him "a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him" was in the right, nor that Snape never paused to listen to Harry's side of the matter. Yes, other teachers refuse to listen to students' stories, I understand, but I think Snape crossed the line by calling Harry names and insulting him.
When he felt Snape was a bully? I disagree, even if that view paints Sirius in a very poor light. :D
I offered you my interpretation - that is the most I can do - and I understand yours. We will have to "agree to disagree" (I think that phrase is used too much on this thread! :lol:).
When kids come home complaining about this teacher who was always scolding them or taking away points, I think parents generally listen and see if it serious or if it can be handled by the student himself. If the parents don't approach Dumbledore, then they must feel it was something their kids could handle or because the kids has nothing to complain in the first place IMO.
I am not sure if all of the students (at least the ones we see with their parents, the Weasleys) divulged to their parents Snape's cruelty. I see their silence much like Harry's with Umbridge's torture in OotP: it was a personal feud between student and Snape, and most students did not want their parents involved. Other students, like Neville, would likely have been too scared to report Snape's tactics. Also, since Dumbledore was clearly tolerant of Snape's teaching, I contend that any parent would accept Dumbledore's choice and trust his judgment, even if he/she did not completely agree.
He could not because he knew from Snape's memories the mistrust Harry had with Snape IMO.
This was my point, though. You said that Voldemort would be willing to "ask the impossible" in order to get at Harry. Therefore, by that logic, Voldemort would have "asked the impossible" of Snape, even though "he knew from Snape's memories the mistrust Harry had with Snape."
In whatever way. Voldemort does not care about that; the means. He wants the results (like with Draco). But here he could not ask Snape to do anything at all. That door was closed to him IMO.
In my opinion, the door was always closed to Voldemort on this matter, given that Dumbledore was always watching over Harry. I do not think Voldemort would have Snape attempt to deliver Harry to Voldemort, whether Snape and Harry were best friends or nemeses because of Dumbledore. I think Snape supports this view in his conversation with Bellatrix at Spinner's End.
There is another one; MOrfins. Where Voldemort himself had done the tampering. A dark unnatural something.
As he did so, an unnatural darkness fell, extinguishing Voldemort's lamp, Morfin's candle, extinguishing everything....
And in Lord Voldemort's Request chapter Hokey also has her mind altered by Voldemort. I think Voldemort would know if memories are tampered with.
I thought you may have been referring to those instances. However, I do not think those memories were tampered with. Morfin's and Hokey's memories were certainly altered (Dumbledore describes it as Voldemort "implant[ing] a false memory"), but Morfin's memory does not show that, I think. In Dumbledore's words:
"Is that all?" said Harry at once. "Why did it go dark, what happened?"
"Because Morfin could not remember anything from that point onward," said Dumbledore, gesturing Harry back into his seat.
So Morfin's memory does not represent a tampered memory - it represents and incomplete and nonexistent memory. Dumbledore later says that Morfin was likely Stupefied, which is why the memory went dark.
IMO this was not a fault. Added, it will look to Draco, Lucius Malfoy's son, that a muggleborn (they would read mudblood) was never praised by Snape even if she got a perfect potion.
Once again, I cannot agree that Draco seeing Snape praise Hermione's work would interfere with his cover for his role as a spy:
Voldemort stationed Snape at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore, with the cover of teaching for the headmaster. If Snape was kind to all of his students, I do not think Voldemort would dispute Snape's behavior, since Voldemort would see Snape as fulfilling the proper role to remain in "Dumbledore's pocket." Contrarily, I think Snape could also behave horribly to his students (in Voldemort's perspective), as long as Dumbledore kept Snape as a teacher. As I see it, Snape could teach in any way he wanted - it was his choice to be "horrible" to Harry, Neville, and a lot of other students.
Do you have any rebuttal to this?
I know you said before:
I disagree. For Voldemort could just as easily ask Snape to bring Harry to him and then Snape and his work are lost to the Order IMO.
However, I have provided my stance for this as well:
I still fail to see how Voldemort would expect Snape to deliver him Harry under Dumbledore's nose, even if Snape was best friends with Harry.

I think this was after Snape had warned Harry to go back to the dormitory and Harry had disobeyed him and gone to Hogsmeade. Harry was asked to stay in Hogwarts, had been sent back to the Gryffindor common room by Snape and Snape was angry Harry had disobeyed him and broken the rules to go to Hogsmeade when Sirius Black could have attacked him or killed him. I think he was stressing the importance of obedience of following rules IMO.

Snape is justified for thinking this way because Harry was jeopardizing his life (or so they thought) by going to Hogsmeade. I am not critcizing Snape for that but on his methods of punishing him. He had the right to question Harry, but in no way should he have brought James in. They were not discussing Harry's father, and bringing him up suddenly to provoke Harry was unfair.

He got a 'SHUT UP' shout from Harry for his efforts and Snape did not even take a point of Gryffindor or hand over a detention for that. So, he also allowed Harry to get away with a lot, when they were alone.

Well, I can't blame Harry for yelling at Snape to shut up after what he said about James because Harry was being provoked. But regardless, I am not arguing about Snape's punishments, but questioning him for how he dealt with the situation by bringing up James.

Only, I think Snape could not explain as perhaps Lupin would, because he needed to keep his distance and maintain Harry's dislike of him. Which was why there was a James' reference IMO.

Canon? :huh: I cannot recall anything in the books that suggested Snape intentionally tried to maintain the dislike between Harry and himself.

I think Snape was trying to point out to Harry that rules were meant to be followed and not doing so, could very easily end wrongly and in this case endanger Harry's life.

But that's the thing with Snape. I can see from Snape's POV about why he would punish Harry (being late, talking back, etc.) but I do not approve of the manner in which Snape deals with the situation. Instead of simply reprimanding Harry as McGonagall would, he goes further by mocking him or provoking him. As a professor - as an adult, even - he should have behaved better than that.

* * *

For me it was pretty clear that Snape never treated his students to keep up his cover as a spy. As MrSleepyHead points out, it would have been more beneficial if Snape had treated them fairly because, for Voldemort, it would make him look like a better spy because Dumbledore would have thought he fully redeemed himself. There isn't any evidence that Snape acted because of his role as a spy. Harry does forgives him, and I admire him for that, but I don't think that means what Snape did was excusable; bullying children and insulting an orphan's father is uncalled for and unfair, IMO. :no:

Snape was a brave person. His job was difficult and he successfully fooled Voldemort into thinking he was a Death Eater. I acknowledge all this, but I don't see any reason to sanctify his behavior. Snape was not a nice person to his students, but he was a brave man in the end who made sacrifices for the greater good - that's what makes him one of the most fascinating characters, as evidenced by the twelve versions of this thread. To me, ignoring Snape's faults is a disservice to his character because it simplifies him and makes him look like a traditional hero as opposed to him being an anti-hero.

To me, ignoring Snape's faults is a disservice to his character because it simplifies him and makes him look like a traditional hero as opposed to him being an anti-hero.

I disagree with that because by the end of the series, Snape's character is explained in so much detail that it is greatly simplified both for Harry and the Reader. He is still a complex character, certainly, but Harry put Snape in simple terms when he described him as "the bravest man he ever knew." That's not an extremely complex analysis, but one of those simple, Luna-worthy uncomfortable truths, at least in Harry's opinion. So I feel that for Harry, Snape was a traditional hero, if by that he means someone who is brave and courageous.

So while I don't think that anyone should overlook Snape's faults, and Harry certainly spent a great deal of time thinking about Snape's faults in the books, there is a point at which Snape's bravery became more important than his faults. I think that's the case with many of the heroic characters in the books - none of them are superheroes with entirely ethical characteristics, in my opinion. Every character has flaws and that makes them seem human instead of one-dimensional.

ETA: JKR called Snape an anti-hero, but that is her opinion, and not necessarily everyone's opinion. The book seems to say that he was a hero. Just my own view of course.

Is it just me, or does it seem like this thread has a lot of "Harry deserved what he got because he was a nasty kid"?

I'd like to say that is not my point of view at all... I love both characters.

Is it just me, or does it seem like this thread has a lot of "Harry deserved what he got because he was a nasty kid"?

Harry IMO deserved to be punished like any other student for any mistakes he may make as a student. For those mistakes if any professor punishes him, I think he deserves that (of course I am assuming the punishment is generally in tune with the mistake).

He is not a nasty boy (I love him :love:) but I think in almost all Harry/Snape interactions there is a back story, where Snape may have a good reason to act the way he did IMO. :) Like the one from GOF IMO.

I do not agree, though, that calling him "a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him" was in the right, nor that Snape never paused to listen to Harry's side of the matter.

Harry's side of the matter was pretending he had gone deaf (canon) and that he knew nothing about what Snape was talking initially and then denying he had anything to do with both, but in such a way that it aroused Snape's suspicions IMO.

I offered you my interpretation - that is the most I can do - and I understand yours. We will have to "agree to disagree" (I think that phrase is used too much on this thread! :lol:).

Yes; and I am sorry to make you post it again. :)

I am not sure if all of the students (at least the ones we see with their parents, the Weasleys) divulged to their parents Snape's cruelty.

I really don't see any Weasley from Bill to Ginny as particularly scared of their parents. And if Snape was bullying any kid in school that would have come out in the holidays and if Snape was bullying one of the Weasleys, I am sure Molly would know about it.

I see their silence much like Harry's with Umbridge's torture in OotP:

That came after McGonagall told Harry not to provoke her, basically saying no would could overrule her or help students caught by her. Normally that would not have happened IMO.

it was a personal feud between student and Snape, and most students did not want their parents involved.

Yeah, I know JKR said that; and that it was personal between Snape and Harry was true, I disagree it was a feud and that it was an enmity that coloured Snape and Harry's relationship; I believe it was coloured by Snape's desire to protect Harry and in the process discover that he came to care for not just Lily's boy, but James Potter's son too IMO.

Other students, like Neville, would likely have been too scared to report Snape's tactics. Also, since Dumbledore was clearly tolerant of Snape's teaching, I contend that any parent would accept Dumbledore's choice and trust his judgment, even if he/she did not completely agree.

The EW shows that when it came to Harry and Snape, Harry won hands down in Dumbledore's eyes over Snape. If Harry was bullied I am quite sure Dumbledore would have stopped it.

This was my point, though. You said that Voldemort would be willing to "ask the impossible" in order to get at Harry. Therefore, by that logic, Voldemort would have "asked the impossible" of Snape, even though "he knew from Snape's memories the mistrust Harry had with Snape."

Yes; he could, but that would not be unless he wanted Snape to fail and so be punished. If he trusted Snape and was sure about Snape's loyalties, then Voldemort would not give him impossible jobs where Snape would fail before he even started IMO.

Do you have any rebuttal to this?

I need to think about another explanation. :)

Is it just me, or does it seem like this thread has a lot of "Harry deserved what he got because he was a nasty kid"?
:sigh:

This incident has been quoted a number of times on this thread in the past. It's one I found it particularly difficult to forgive Severus for, at the time of reading it:

"You might be labouring under the delusion that the entire wizarding world is impressed with you," Snape went on, so quietly that no one else could hear him, "but I don't care how many times your picture appears in the papers. To me, Potter, you are nothing but a nasty little boy who considers rules to be beneath him." (GoF, Chapter 27)
Hmm. I remember having a really sick feeling about that line. To me that was just downright taunting/Snape making things more complicated than they needed to be. It's just something you don't say to a student, imo.

The_Green_Woods;5399757]Harry IMO deserved to be punished like any other student for any mistakes he may make as a student. For those mistakes if any professor punishes him, I think he deserves that (of course I am assuming the punishment is generally in tune with the mistake).

He is not a nasty boy (I love him :love:) but I think in almost all Harry/Snape interactions there is a back story, where Snape may have a good reason to act the way he did IMO. :) Like the one from GOF IMO.

The problem with this is, Harry and the other students that Snape acted 'his part as a spy' in this manner with, do not know that it is an act, (if that is what it is.) They are experiencing a teacher who is acting in an unprofessional manner with them and they know they don't deserve to be treated like that


Harry's side of the matter was pretending he had gone deaf (canon) and that he knew nothing about what Snape was talking initially and then denying he had anything to do with both, but in such a way that it aroused Snape's suspicions IMO.

Harry has good reason to be suspicious of Snape, Snape is constantly acting in a suspicious manner. And let us not forget, a good deal of the time Harry knows he is in danger and he is actively trying to get through the sticky patch as he thinks alone except for Ron and Hermione. He is not enlightened by DD or Snape about what they are doing to protect him, till the end of the book.

I really don't see any Weasley from Bill to Ginny as particularly scared of their parents. And if Snape was bullying any kid in school that would have come out in the holidays and if Snape was bullying one of the Weasleys, I am sure Molly would know about it.

In Britain we have a saying, 'telling tales out of school'. You just dont tell tales, or you are seen as a whiner. Right of wrong, that is how it is. Snape knew that he would not be 'split on' as it's put because of this.

That came after McGonagall told Harry not to provoke her, basically saying no would could overrule her or help students caught by her. Normally that would not have happened IMO.

These are a very good examples of what I was speaking about. If the children had reported to their parents just how bad things were, just how long do you think Umbridge would have lasted at the school if parents had started to descend en masse to the MOM demanding that she be removed.

Yeah, I know JKR said that; and that it was personal between Snape and Harry was true, I disagree it was a feud and that it was an enmity that coloured Snape and Harry's relationship; I believe it was coloured by Snape's desire to protect Harry and in the process discover that he came to care for not just Lily's boy, but James Potter's son too IMO.

I cannot agree with this. To me it had all the hallmarks of a feud. When I read in the books all the times that Snape said nasty things to Harry, either when they were alone or whispered so that no one else could hear, it put me in mind of a bully who threatens under his breath when he is forced to apolgise. Ususally something that runs along the lines of 'just you wait'. Maybe Jo didn't mean it to come across that way, but that's how it read to me.


The EW shows that when it came to Harry and Snape, Harry won hands down in Dumbledore's eyes over Snape. If Harry was bullied I am quite sure Dumbledore would have stopped it.


Why, DD was manipulative? He loved Harry but he was not above seeing Harry suffer at the Dursleys because of the protection Harry recieved there. Harry was protected at Hogwarts so does that mean he let Snape act in what I see as a bullying manner because he needed Snape as a spy?

The big problems that I see with Snape's actions as a teacher is that I can see no reasonable reasons for it. I do not buy that Snape had to act in that manner because the DE's children would tell their parents about him being nice around the dinner table at home.

1. It's a boarding school, they did not go home to sit around the dinner table.

2. The means of communicating is by writing letters. Writing a letter home is torture for most kids, I just cant see a bunch of 11-12-13 year olds sitting down, pen in hand, (quill pens and ink bottles) to write home that Profeessor Snape was nice to the Gryffandors/Hufflepuffs/Ravenclaws, sorry just dont see it. As for telling them on the holidays, out of sight, out of mind.

Snape was very brave as a spy, no one can deny it, but as teacher-he fell a long way short of the mark, IMO.

And this just ignores the fact that Snape was simply being unfair -- assuming Harry was an arrogant know-it-all who hadn't bothered to prepare for his lesson properly, when the truth was that Harry had been unable to do so (because of living with the Dursleys). It's like Snape has already made his mind up, and Harry suffers the consequences.

No, it doesn't.

Knowing what I know about Snape, I find it safe to assume he already has made up his mind about the initial approach to Harry - unfair, yes.

Harry, on the other hand, unwittingly plays the part by the cheeky 'why not ask her' line. It simply all goes downhill from there.

To make myself perfectly clear: I'm not saying Snape was correct in his assumption, nor am I saying that his behaviour in the classroom was not detrimental to some of the students. What I am saying is: that's the kind of person Snape was - a caustic collocutor with the warmth of a laser beam and smoothness of a sandpaper.

The results of such a treatment could go either way: from making of a diamond to complete and utter destruction. ;)

I do not think Crabbe and Goyle laughing with Draco in the first Potions class means they knew the answer - they just enjoyed watching Harry being picked on (much like Dudley's favorite thing to watch was Uncle Vernon bullying Harry).

Sleepy, you misquoted there. It wasn't my post you were answering with this. :relax:

This is my point, though. I do not think Snape should have treated Harry or Neville specially, like he did with Malfoy. I just fail to see why he could not treat them, at the least, indifferently. Why did he have to torture them? To maintain his cover? I do not accept that explanation, since Snape's cover would, as I see it, not been in danger in the slightest by being indifferent towards Gryffindors.

As I have said before, I think Snape's was a personal choice to be horrible to most of his students, and that lessens his morality and his character considerably for me.

Once again, I'm not one of the people supporting the 'tough love' theory. I agree it was Snape's choice to be blunt and sarcastic with the students - true to his nature - the only difference being I never saw that kind of behaviour as 'torture'. I reserve that kind of description for the Cruciatus and the like.

Perhaps my pain threshold is just a bit higher.

I agree that McGonagall was just as stern with Neville as Snape was. However, McGonagall, at least, refrained from calling Neville names, like "idiot boy." Yes, she negatively remarked about Neville's inability to perform a Switching Spell, but I do not think she was ever as demeaning to Neville as Snape was - especially given that it was the very first Potions class that Snape called Neville an "idiot."

No, McGonagall is a bit more politically correct in her address:

Professor McGonagall pulled herself back through the portrait hole to face the stunned crowd. She was white as chalk.
‘Which person,’ she said, her voice shaking, ‘which abysmally foolish person wrote down this week’s passwords and left them lying around?’
There was utter silence, broken by the smallest of terrified squeaks. Neville Longbottom, trembling from head to fluffy-slippered toes, raised his hand slowly into the air.

At that point she doesn't know who the culprit was, so is making a comment based purely on her perceptions of the person's actions.

Then again, I can't recall either teacher making a similar remark once Neville 'comes around'. ;)

Is it just me, or does it seem like this thread has a lot of "Harry deserved what he got because he was a nasty kid"?

Well, we're quoting Sev a lot so.... :whistle:

:lol:

I don't know about others, but my statements are more along the lines of "Harry got what he did because that's all Severus could give."

*wonders about Snape's reaction to being psycho-analysed* :lol:

:rotfl: I would pay to see that! Poor Sev. :elaugh:

So, to lighten the mood a bit...

http://www.cosforums.com/picture.php?albumid=868&pictureid=7255

"I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"
That is in reference to Crabbe and Goyle's poor grades in Defense Against the Dark Arts:

"If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L. this time around, they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres -"

To me, this even appears that Snape is helping Crabbe and Goyle succeed - something he never did with, say, Neville.

Snape did give Neville detention for poor classwork.
unless you counted Neville melting his sixth cauldron in Potions. Professor Snape...gave Neville detention...

So if giving students detention for poor classwork is helping them to succeed, as you stated re Crabbe and Goyle's detention for poor work in DADA, then Snape did help Neville by giving him detention for poor work in Potions.
Same problem, same consequences for both Slytherins and a Gryffindor.

Now that I think about it more, that entire scene in The Unbreakable Vow is a perfect example of Snape performing his different roles simultaneously. He is a teacher and Head of House during the party and when explaining to Draco why he gave Crabbe and Goyle detention; he is a spy for Dumbledore as he tries to discover what Draco's plans are; he keeps his cover as a "loyal DE" by being nice to Draco (note that Draco does not accuse Snape of trying to reveal his plans to Dumbledore, but accuses him of wanting to take credit and impress Voldemort. Snape held his cover); and Snape is trying to protect Draco as per the terms of his Vow with Narcissa, Dumbledore's orders, and (I think) his own concern for the safety of Draco and all the others at Hogwarts.

[fieldset=Draco,HBP]"
So if giving students detention for poor classwork is helping them to succeed, as you stated re Crabbe and Goyle's detention for poor work in DADA, then Snape did help Neville by giving him detention for poor work in Potions.
Same problem, same consequences for both Slytherins and a Gryffindor.

Wouldn't have been more constructive to teach Neville to do it properly? How was detention going to help him learn? Unless of course Snape used the detention for some one on one special instruction. But I don't think that would have been on the schedule, would it? After all Neville went through 6 cauldrons and never got some personal instruction from his tutor.

Wouldn't have been more constructive to teach Neville to do it properly? How was detention going to help him learn? Unless of course Snape used the detention for some one on one special instruction. But I don't think that would have been on the schedule, would it? After all Neville went through 6 cauldrons and never got some personal instruction from his tutor.
I didn't say that detention was helpful, MrSleepyHead did. Personally, I think the detentions given to all three boys were punishment for not doing better in class. But they are given the same consequences regardless of House, which was my point.

Draco,HBP
"I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"


That is in reference to Crabbe and Goyle's poor grades in Defense Against the Dark Arts:

Snape. HBP
"If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L. this time around, they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres -"


To me, this even appears that Snape is helping Crabbe and Goyle succeed - something he never did with, say, Neville.

But Rowling's portrayal of Harry's childhood is not a psychologically realistic one. (It is plausible in terms of what she does with Harry as a literary hero.) In RL, a child in Harry's position, who had suffered the abuse he had at the hands of the Dursleys, would be far more subdued and cowed and wounded than Harry actually is in canon. (And who knows, maybe Snape would have picked up on those clues had the facts about Harry's awful childhood been more obvious ... or if Dumbledore had seen fit to share that information with the rest of his staff.)
But, Cathy, we see from the text that the fame had not gone to Harry's head. He was bewildered to find himself famous. Any arrogance on the child's part was Snape's assumption ... and personally I find it to be a wrong one.

I was just working with What Rowling had given us and looking at that scene from a different angle. Harry's behaviour IS unrealistic given his background and I guess I was just looking at all the possibilities. But Harry was IMO cheeky (a Lily trait) and I am still surprised that Sev only took 1 point. Perhaps that was his idea of cutting the kids some slack. I agree that in general Harry is a model of humility and self-effacement, I was just throwing the idea around - is it not possible that for the first few days Harry did enjoy being the centre of attention though he quickly tired of it? Is it not possible that Severus did actually see Harry being the centre of attention and enjoying it without knowing how unusual this was for Harry? I am not saying that that is how I read those scenes - just that it is a possibilty - and as such has a bearing on Snape's reading of Harry's character. Snape undoubtedly saw what he wanted to see in Harry, but to me it is worth investigating the possibilty that Harry WAS enjoying his fame a bit (Just as Darcy WAS looking down his nose at everybody when Lizzie first saw him at the assembly) The trouble is that Snape takes that as a summary of Harry's character (just as Lizzie does of Darcy's) when he actually knows very little about him.

When I first read PS/SS, I was rooting for Harry against the 'nasty teacher'.Well being ther hero it was plain that when it mattered it was going to work out in Harry's favour, but there would be lots of sparring between Harry and Snape. To me for the first 3-4 books Snape took on the role of 'comedy villain' - the person you love to hate, who may thwart the hero in minor ways, but is never a real threat and often ends up looking foolish. Being the 'comedy villain' meant that he could never be a real villain and I think Jo did very well to switch him from the role of comedy villain (typical of children's books) to Byronic/anti-hero for the later books.


Is it just me, or does it seem like this thread has a lot of "Harry deserved what he got because he was a nasty kid"?
Well speaking for myself that was certainly never my opinion. I don't think Harry was a nasty kid - he was as near to perfect as any kid is likely to get - especially given his circumstances. Like Dumbledore I believe that he is an exceptional person.
I am not here to judge any of the characters but to examine their behaviour and the possible motives for that behaviour. I don't think that anyone deserves bad treatment whether it is Harry or Seveus and I certainly don't beleive that any one person should decide what another deserves. To me what is most interesting and remarkable is the contrast between Harry and Snape - the one character who is unable to forgive, and therefore remains bitter and miserable and the other who is able to forgive and lives a happy and fulfilled life. That to me is the big message of the series. Love triumphs but for that triumph to be complete there must be forgiveness.

ETA:
Now that I think about it more, that entire scene in The Unbreakable Vow is a perfect example of Snape performing his different roles simultaneously. He is a teacher and Head of House during the party and when explaining to Draco why he gave Crabbe and Goyle detention; he is a spy for Dumbledore as he tries to discover what Draco's plans are; he keeps his cover as a "loyal DE" by being nice to Draco (note that Draco does not accuse Snape of trying to reveal his plans to Dumbledore, but accuses him of wanting to take credit and impress Voldemort. Snape held his cover); and Snape is trying to protect Draco as per the terms of his Vow with Narcissa, Dumbledore's orders, and (I think) his own concern for the safety of Draco and all the others at Hogwarts.When you put it like that Fubs - that is a lot of balls to keep in the air!

Snape did give Neville detention for poor classwork.
GoF, ch14, The Unforgivable Curses unless you counted Neville melting his sixth cauldron in Potions. Professor Snape...gave Neville detention...

So if giving students detention for poor classwork is helping them to succeed, as you stated re Crabbe and Goyle's detention for poor work in DADA, then Snape did help Neville by giving him detention for poor work in Potions.
Same problem, same consequences for both Slytherins and a Gryffindor.

Thanks for the quotes, Col. Fubster. I would add that Snape did want Neville to succeed because he keeps trying even though Neville doesn't succeed as well as Harry or Ron.

I just found a passage in which Snape gives Harry and Ron ten points from Gryffindor because they seem to be wrestling Neville or hurting him. How's that for being fair? I think this shows that Snape had some sympathy for Neville - it's almost exactly like the scene at the end of OotP when Snape rescues Neville from Goyle. So it happens twice in the same book, and Snape stops it.

From OotP:

'Help me!' Harry flung at Ron, managing to get an arm around Neville's neck and dragging him backwards, away from the Slytherins. Crabbe and Goyle were flexing their arms as they stepped in front of Malfoy, ready for the fight. Ron seized Neville's arms, and together he and Harry succeeded in dragging Neville back into the Gryffindor line. Neville's face was scarlet; the pressure Harry was exerting on his throat rendered him quite incomprehensible, but odd words spluttered from his mouth.

'Not… funny… don't… Mungo's… show… him…'

The dungeon door opened. Snape appeared there. His black eyes swept up the Gryffindor line to the point where Harry and Ron were wrestling with Neville.

'Fighting, Potter, Weasley, Longbottom?' Snape said in his cold, sneering voice. Ten points from Gryffindor. Release Longbottom, Potter, or it will be detention. Inside, all of you.'

Harry let go of Neville, who stood panting and glaring at him.

'I had to stop you,' Harry gasped, picking up his bag. 'Crabbe and Goyle would've torn you apart.'

~~~~~~~~~~~

Later in OotP:

Snape looked round at Harry. His face was inscrutable. Harry could not tell whether he had understood or not, but he did not dare speak more plainly in front of Umbridge.

'I have no idea,' said Snape coldly. 'Potter, when 1 want nonsense shouted at me I shall give you a Babbling Beverage. And Crabbe, loosen your hold a little. If Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if ever you apply for a job.'


So in the first quote, Harry and Ron are actually trying to help Neville by saving him from fighting the Slytherins, but Snape doesn't know that. I just find it's interesting that based on what Snape actually saw and heard, it tells Harry to get away from Neville and let go of him, in spite of the fact that Harry believes Snape hates Neville.

And in the second case, Snape takes the time to stop a Slytherin from choking Neville, even though he knows it is urgent to go and check to see if Sirius is really at Grimmauld Place, and even though Umbridge is standing there.

I like the fact that Harry realizes he himself dared not speak plainly in front of Umbridge, and obviously that goes for Snape too. But he does stand up for Neville, in my opinion.

The problem with this is, Harry and the other students that Snape acted 'his part as a spy' in this manner with, do not know that it is an act, (if that is what it is.) They are experiencing a teacher who is acting in an unprofessional manner with them and they know they don't deserve to be treated like that

I feel there is more to any Snape/Harry interaction. Snape is talking to him on many levels. As a spy/DE for Voldemort, as a teacher cautioning Harry for his recklessness or rudeness and in certain cases, a bit more personal where Snape is letting Harry get away with his actions after just talking him down (though those instances are implied more than anything else; and Harry at that time is unable to appreciate that Snape had indeed let him off lightly, when had it been his own Head of House, he would have faced a tougher time).

Harry has good reason to be suspicious of Snape, Snape is constantly acting in a suspicious manner. And let us not forget, a good deal of the time Harry knows he is in danger and he is actively trying to get through the sticky patch as he thinks alone except for Ron and Hermione. He is not enlightened by DD or Snape about what they are doing to protect him, till the end of the book.

Yes. And when he knows about the work Snape was doing he understood why Snape needed to be harsh with him, at times more than what was necessary (the times when Snape let him off, I doubt Harry realised at the time).

In Britain we have a saying, 'telling tales out of school'. You just dont tell tales, or you are seen as a whiner. Right of wrong, that is how it is. Snape knew that he would not be 'split on' as it's put because of this.

To ones parents, when one is having a genuine problem will not be looked upon as telling tales or whining IMO. Parents usually will know if the child is simply whining or if there is a real problem.

These are a very good examples of what I was speaking about. If the children had reported to their parents just how bad things were, just how long do you think Umbridge would have lasted at the school if parents had started to descend en masse to the MOM demanding that she be removed.

But, no one told or warned the kids about Snape. I don't see the comparison. If Snape was the bully, the teachers, Dumbledore and children would do something about it. That will not go unnoticed for over 16 years (the time Snape was teaching in the School).

I cannot agree with this. To me it had all the hallmarks of a feud. When I read in the books all the times that Snape said nasty things to Harry, either when they were alone or whispered so that no one else could hear, it put me in mind of a bully who threatens under his breath when he is forced to apolgise. Ususally something that runs along the lines of 'just you wait'. Maybe Jo didn't mean it to come across that way, but that's how it read to me.

I understand you felt that way, but I read it differently. And it culminated in the memories, Snape gave Harry. In the middle there was a time Harry did not understand, there was a time Harry completely misunderstood and in the end Harry understands everything IMO.

Why, DD was manipulative? He loved Harry but he was not above seeing Harry suffer at the Dursleys because of the protection Harry recieved there. Harry was protected at Hogwarts so does that mean he let Snape act in what I see as a bullying manner because he needed Snape as a spy?

That was the blood protection. But I agree. He could have gone there and checked up on Harry. He fails to do so. I agree.

In Hogwarts it was different though. Harry made his opinion of Snape clear to Dumbledore at the end of Book 1, when he informs Dumbledore that he felt Snape hated him. So, even assuming Dumbledore did not know about Snape's apparent bullying before that time, he would know that Harry thought a professor hated him and that the vibes were not good between Snape and Harry, two people very important to him. I presume he would have watched and since he never tells anything to Snape, I conclude there was never any bullying either.

The big problems that I see with Snape's actions as a teacher is that I can see no reasonable reasons for it. I do not buy that Snape had to act in that manner because the DE's children would tell their parents about him being nice around the dinner table at home.

Well I concluded so because it is canon Snape was a spy, it is canon Snape knew Voldemort was returning and so had to prepare himself for that day and it is canon that Voldemort wanted Harry dead at any cost and seeing the job he gave Draco, it would not be too far fetched to consider he might do the same for Snape, only altering his order a bit, from killing Harry to bringing him to Voldemort.

1. It's a boarding school, they did not go home to sit around the dinner table.

Snape's job as spy made him cautious even at the dinner table IMO.

2. The means of communicating is by writing letters. Writing a letter home is torture for most kids, I just cant see a bunch of 11-12-13 year olds sitting down, pen in hand, (quill pens and ink bottles) to write home that Profeessor Snape was nice to the Gryffandors/Hufflepuffs/Ravenclaws, sorry just dont see it. As for telling them on the holidays, out of sight, out of mind.

Out of sight out of mind at the beginning, perhaps. Not at the end of the holidays, when they need to face someone or something they are scared of or dislike IMO.

Snape was very brave as a spy, no one can deny it, but as teacher-he fell a long way short of the mark, IMO.

And yet, even Neville who melted as many as six (thank you ColFub :)) cauldrons in one class and exploded a potion in his very first one, passed Potions OWL without sweat.

ETA :: Great post SIP! :clap:

Sorry TGW, I'm not convinced. The problem is that the character is just so darn egnimatic. Both of our views are possible, I just see mine as more probable.

I see Snape as having had very conflicted feelings about Harry. He was Lily's son but he was also James' son. Harry was a constant reminder of him losing his best friend to the person he disliked the most. Add the fact that James chose Sirius (another guy that Snape hated) and ended up being betrayed by him, I think his dislike for James would have been an all time high. It doesn't help that Harry looks exactly like James. I also think that Snape was not fully developed emotionally. Perhaps that is not the right choice of words, but manipulating his memories and feelings so much that he passes the Voldemort Legilimency test has got to have had some effect on him.

I think another thing is that Snape was forced into the teaching position. I don't think he wanted it or enjoyed it. It must have been hard for him to teach average (compared to him) students a subject that he was so brilliant at. It can get irritating when students screw up or don't understand things that you found so easy to understand. That's probably the reason why Snape allowed only people with an O in his NEWT classes.
Considering that he had a lot on his mind, I think he did a pretty good job teaching.

Sorry TGW, I'm not convinced. The problem is that the character is just so darn egnimatic. Both of our views are possible, I just see mine as more probable.

I agree he's enigmatic. That's why he's so fascinating IMO. :)

I lean towards my views because I feel any Snape/Harry interaction can be explained. If it was simple hate or utter dislike, then there would not be much explanation for Snape's behaviour. But like the example in GOF, there are reasons, and sometimes reasons within reasons for Snape's behaviour and if I discount all of them, then I don't get the idea of this emotionally stunted person who could not see beyond physical characteristics and resemblance and who hated a boy because he looked like his father. But he is watchful and he scolds Harry and is sometimes really angry with him, whenever Harry acts or thinks like James. I think there is a difference between the two. Snape had reason to think James acted rashly, arrogantly and foolishly, and for him it was important Harry did not act in a similar manner, for that rashness/arrogance in Snape's mind killed the Potters and he did not want that for Harry IMO. And I really can't mistake him for that.

And seeing Snape felt James was '...too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black - now get out of the way or I will make you.

or when he talks of Harry's rule breaking in POA, when Harry went to Hogsmeade secretly.

"So," he said, straightening up again. "Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences.

Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof—yet.

"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers... The resemblance between you is uncanny."

"My dad didn't strut," said Harry, before he could stop himself. "And neither do I."

"Your father didn't set much store by rules either," Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of malice. "Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup-winners. His head was so swollen—"

"SHUT UP!"

Harry was suddenly on his feet. Rage such as he had not felt since his last night in Privet Drive was coursing through him. He didn't care that Snape's face had gone rigid, the black eyes flashing dangerously.

"What did you say to me, Potter?"

"I told you to shut up about my dad!" Harry yelled. I know the truth, all right? He saved your life! Dumbledore told me! You wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for my dad!"

Snape was livid that Harry had seen it fit to go to Hogsmeade at a time, when Black was nearby, when Black could have easily captured or killed Harry. He compares Harry's rule breaking to James' and the message is 'Don't be like your father. His arrogance and careless attitude got him killed and I want you to live.'

I think Snape saw Harry's trip to Hogsmeade as a very rash and arrogant act (because Harry was confident nothing would happen to him/uncaring that something might happen to him). Harry shrugging off the safety measures taken by Dumbledore to keep Harry away from a man who everyone thought was out to kill him, angered Snape, who thought this was James' nature manifesting in Harry. And he let Harry have it.

But since they were in private, Snape also took a lot of Harry's anger and shouting, shrugging it all off. Only Harry was so up in the Snape hate, that he never realised that or that Snape had not destroyed James Potter's and Sirius Black creation, the Map IMO. :)

So, I guess I see it as an act in places and an anger, whenever Snape sees not James' looks in Harry, but in his opinion James' rather arrogant and over confident nature, which in very serious situations could easily backfire and hurt Harry, like it did for the Potters.

Snape had promised to protect Harry and he had to do it keeping his distance from the boy and at the same time look out for him too.

I feel most Snape scenes are a combination of these.

Perhaps that is not the right choice of words, but manipulating his memories and feelings so much that he passes the Voldemort Legilimency test has got to have had some effect on him.


Which is why I think he made it simply by keeping his distance from Harry from day 1; that would make it easier on his Occlumency IMO.

I agree he's enigmatic. That's why he's so fascinating IMO. :)

I lean towards my views because I feel any Snape/Harry interaction can be explained. If it was simple hate or utter dislike, then there would not be much explanation for Snape's behaviour. But like the example in GOF, there are reasons, and sometimes reasons within reasons for Snape's behaviour and if I discount all of them, then I don't get the idea of this emotionally stunted person who could not see beyond physical characteristics and resemblance and who hated a boy because he looked like his father. But he is watchful and he scolds Harry and is sometimes really angry with him, whenever Harry acts or thinks like James. I think there is a difference between the two. Snape had reason to think James acted rashly, arrogantly and foolishly, and for him it was important Harry did not act in a similar manner, for that rashness/arrogance in Snape's mind killed the Potters and he did not want that for Harry IMO. And I really can't mistake him for that.

And seeing Snape felt James was '...too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black - now get out of the way or I will make you.

or when he talks of Harry's rule breaking in POA, when Harry went to Hogsmeade secretly.

"So," he said, straightening up again. "Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences.

Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof—yet.

"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers... The resemblance between you is uncanny."

"My dad didn't strut," said Harry, before he could stop himself. "And neither do I."

"Your father didn't set much store by rules either," Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of malice. "Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup-winners. His head was so swollen—"

"SHUT UP!"

Harry was suddenly on his feet. Rage such as he had not felt since his last night in Privet Drive was coursing through him. He didn't care that Snape's face had gone rigid, the black eyes flashing dangerously.

"What did you say to me, Potter?"

"I told you to shut up about my dad!" Harry yelled. I know the truth, all right? He saved your life! Dumbledore told me! You wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for my dad!"

Snape was livid that Harry had seen it fit to go to Hogsmeade at a time, when Black was nearby, when Black could have easily captured or killed Harry. He compares Harry's rule breaking to James' and the message is 'Don't be like your father. His arrogance and careless attitude got him killed and I want you to live.'

I think Snape saw Harry's trip to Hogsmeade as a very rash and arrogant act (because Harry was confident nothing would happen to him/uncaring that something might happen to him). Harry shrugging off the safety measures taken by Dumbledore to keep Harry away from a man who everyone thought was out to kill him, angered Snape, who thought this was James' nature manifesting in Harry. And he let Harry have it.

But since they were in private, Snape also took a lot of Harry's anger and shouting, shrugging it all off. Only Harry was so up in the Snape hate, that he never realised that or that Snape had not destroyed James Potter's and Sirius Black creation, the Map IMO. :)

So, I guess I see it as an act in places and an anger, whenever Snape sees not James' looks in Harry, but in his opinion James' rather arrogant and over confident nature, which in very serious situations could easily backfire and hurt Harry, like it did for the Potters.

Snape had promised to protect Harry and he had to do it keeping his distance from the boy and at the same time look out for him too.

I feel most Snape scenes are a combination of these.



Which is why I think he made it simply by keeping his distance from Harry from day 1; that would make it easier on his Occlumency IMO.

:tu: great post, TGW!

I quite agree that most of Severus' anger is triggered by Harry acting as James. I have stated before that Harry's attitude must have made Snape's work a lot harder, and he must have taken that as a bit of an offence. The Harry-Draco sectumsempra-scene for instance must have given Snape a whirlpool of angry emotions: two boys whom he must protect start killing each-other...

Well being ther hero it was plain that when it mattered it was going to work out in Harry's favour, but there would be lots of sparring between Harry and Snape. To me for the first 3-4 books Snape took on the role of 'comedy villain' - the person you love to hate, who may thwart the hero in minor ways, but is never a real threat and often ends up looking foolish. Being the 'comedy villain' meant that he could never be a real villain and I think Jo did very well to switch him from the role of comedy villain (typical of children's books) to Byronic/anti-hero for the later books.

Personally, I never saw Severus as a 'comedy villain'. :) To me his negative emotions towards Harry always seemed to be deadly serious. :shrug: But that, of course, is all part of his backstory.

I loved his first potions speech to Harry's class. :D I often enjoyed his sarcastic humour -- Rowling certainly gives Snape some of the best lines. :rotfl:

I didn't like how he seemed to pick on Harry :no: ... and I still don't, even with all that I now know (and love) about him. I just don't love that, and I never will. I am not all convinced by the theory that it was all part of his spying act.

I also sensed, from book one onwards, that he was going to be an important character in the saga. And so, indeed he proved to be. :) The fact that Rowling keeps him off-stage quite a lot doesn't detract from that. :cool: Of course she was building up his enigma. ;)

I am not here to judge any of the characters but to examine their behaviour and the possible motives for that behaviour.

I don't quite understand this. :) Although I accept that nobody has been deliberately wanting to bash Harry in this latest discussion :), I have got the impression that Harry has been judged and found wanting for not having the same adult perspective as Snape, based on their first lesson together. :shrug:

And I have no problems whatsoever about judging other characters. For example, Peter for his betrayal of the Potters: I think he fully deserves that judgment! I have no problems about judging Bellatrix for torturing Hermione. OK, those are two extreme examples. Let's take a character I love: Harry. I have no problems about judging him when he does something wrong, e.g. firing Sectumsempra at Draco, a spell he knew nothing about.

I don't use a different standard when it comes to my other favourite character: Snape. :shrug: :)

I loved his first potions speech to Harry's class. :D I often enjoyed his sarcastic humour -- Rowling certainly gives Snape some of the best lines. :rotfl:


:lol: agreed. I also loved his speech in his first DADA class


I didn't like how he seemed to pick on Harry :no: ... and I still don't, even with all that I now know (and love) about him. I just don't love that, and I never will. I am not all convinced by the theory that it was all part of his spying act.

He didn't just seem to pick on Harry, and all that concerns Harry is overly complicated to be put payed with such simple remarks IMO that he should or shouldn't have done something some way or another. Yes, dear Severus exhibits a certain grudge and childishness and in the same time protection and care for Harry. (Note, I mean care as in physical well-being.) He acts the way he acts for many complicated and complex reasons and that is the way he is...
IMO the spying act theory works in the meaning that Sev probably told himself that he must be mean to Harry anyways:lol:.
No, IMO Snape has to hate Harry otherwise he'd have no choise but to care for him, and he cannot afford himself to care for someone who is related to James, and is the symbol of everything he has lost. His bitterness overcomes his love when it comes to Harry.

(I still like to entertain the idea that if Harry was Harriet and she resembled Lily Snape would be less mean to her :p:p, but of course, that is just a thought of mine.)

I don't quite understand this. :) Although I accept that nobody has been deliberately wanting to bash Harry in this latest discussion :), I have got the impression that Harry has been judged and found wanting for not having the same adult perspective as Snape, based on their first lesson together. :shrug:

And I have no problems whatsoever about judging other characters. For example, Peter for his betrayal of the Potters: I think he fully deserves that judgment! I have no problems about judging Bellatrix for torturing Hermione. OK, those are two extreme examples. Let's take a character I love: Harry. I have no problems about judging him when he does something wrong, e.g. firing Sectumsempra at Draco, a spell he knew nothing about.

I don't use a different standard when it comes to my other favourite character: Snape. :shrug: :)

I quite agree here. Characters are written to be talked about, understood or dismissed, liked or hated, and ultimately: to learn from. We can learn a lot from each and every character IMO, be that good or bad. We can possibly learn a lot from the costs they pay and the way they are or they become to be based on their wants and needs. Characters need to be judged. Characters depict the possible human being in every way they can or could or should be. They have to be judged. And that judgement can be favorable or less so, depending on the person and the character, and their chemistry together. Some might judge Sev a good person overall, some might not, and it all depends how the value systems overleap.

:lol: agreed. I also loved his speech in his first DADA class

It's a gem. :agree:

He didn't just seem to pick on Harry, and all that concerns Harry is overly complicated to be put payed with such simple remarks IMO that he should or shouldn't have done something some way or another.

Oh, it wasn't just Harry. Snape could be harsh with other students too.

I've said all I feel like saying on the Harry/Snape interaction for now. :)

(I still like to entertain the idea that if Harry was Harriet and she resembled Lily Snape would be less mean to her :p:p, but of course, that is just a thought of mine.)

Yeah, it's speculation, but it's a jolly good one. :) I am inclined to agree with you, too. :cool:

Because Snape seems to have a soft spot for women. Or, at least, certain women. :yuhup: (Not poor Hermione, who seems to push his worst buttons! :whistle: )

But I'm always struck by the gentleness with which he treats Narcissa, when she is so distressed. Not that he's all warm and fluffy :lol: -- perish the thought :yuhup: -- but, really, I do love that scene in Spinner's End between them. :tu:

I quite agree here. Characters are written to be talked about, understood or dismissed, liked or hated, and ultimately: to learn from. We can learn a lot from each and every character IMO, be that good or bad. We can possibly learn a lot from the costs they pay and the way they are or they become to be based on their wants and needs. Characters need to be judged. Characters depict the possible human being in every way they can or could or should be. They have to be judged. And that judgement can be favorable or less so, depending on the person and the character, and their chemistry together. Some might judge Sev a good person overall, some might not, and it all depends how the value systems overleap.

:tu:

Indeed, the concept of not judging a character is totally new to me. :whistle: I do it all the time with my other favourite books and characters. :D

Personally, I never saw Severus as a 'comedy villain'. :) To me his negative emotions towards Harry always seemed to be deadly serious. :shrug: But that, of course, is all part of his backstory.

Well for me the I guess the first three books may have become a bit blurred together in terms of my view of the characters because I read them in quick sucession. The scenes that lead me to call Snape the 'comedy villain' are probably more in Cos and PoA. The first Snape scene in CoS is a classic. I love the way Ron and Harry are talking about him and he walks up behind them - I find that scene hysterically funny. I also love the duelling club scene where Snape faces Lockhart. But 'Snape the comedy villain' really comes into his own in PoA. The scene of him wearing Neville's grandmother's clothes is a classic. (When I read it I couldn't wait to see Rickman play it) So for me while Severus was nasty to Harry - and I in no way wish to underplay that - there was for me a feeling that Snape could and would never really hurt Harry - that he was not a danger to Harry. I always got the feeling that while Snape may give Harry detention and be cruel and sarcastic, Harry would always be proved to be right. The end of PoA involves Snape being incandescent with rage when he discovers Black has escaped and he knows Harry has something to do with it, yet Harry 'wins' as it were, because he has Dumbledore's backing, so Snape's fury is completely impotent. Snape is trying to thwart Harry therefore we as readers are against him, but we can also feel for him too because his fury is based on a misunderstanding that we the readers are aware of and Snape is not.

In the first three books Harry the hero is very much a child and Snape represents the adult world that insists that they are just children and should keep their noses out of the business of the adult world. This is a common theme in children's books - for children to enjoy them it must be the child hero that saves the day. In order for this to happen the author has to somehow dispense with the adults who should be sorting it out. Snape is frequently the stern figure telling the Trio not to meddle in things that don't concern them, not to break the rules and that they do not understand the situation. Snape creates a lot of the conflict within the first three books, but he does this without being the real threat to Harry and his friends. This is what I mean when I say that Severus is a 'comedy villain'

Goblet of Fire is IMO a sort of transitional book; Voldemort is back; a student is murdered and suddenly it all deadly serious. Snape is still in many ways playing the 'comedy villain' but for him it also gets deadly serious as he returns to Voldemort. The question now is not just whether or not Severus Snape is going to get the better of Harry Potter at school, but the much bigger question - Whose side is Severus Snape actually on?

In OotP Snape and Harry are stillin conflict, but interestingly it is Harry that is in the wrong. Harry does not practice occlumency; Harry takes a pensieve dive; Harry assumes Snape is not trying to help him when he has the vision of Sirius in the Ministry. So Jo is able to keep up the theme of Harry and Snape being in conflict, without it being in the manner of the children's book.

HBP is the book where Harry becomes friends with Snape - albeit without either knowing it. But the book ends with the biggest conflict between Harry and Snape we have seen yet.

For Snape to remain ambiguous he must always be in conflict with Harry.
In the first books which work very well as stand alone stories this is achieved buy trying to make Snape thwart Harry and belittle his attempts tp save the day. As I say - in these books he is never a real threat to Harry.
In the later books - and this starts with GoF really, there is the possibility that Severus is in league with Voldemort and as such is a real danger to Harry.

This at least is the way I see it.


I loved his first potions speech to Harry's class. :D I often enjoyed his sarcastic humour -- Rowling certainly gives Snape some of the best lines. :rotfl:
Definitely! I loved the way the poetry of his potions speech ends with "if you're not the usuall bunch of Dunderheads i have to teach!" (paraphrased)

I didn't like how he seemed to pick on Harry :no: ... and I still don't, even with all that I now know (and love) about him. I just don't love that, and I never will. I am not all convinced by the theory that it was all part of his spying act.
I agree with you here. I don't like the way he behaved towards Harry either. Part of what I love about him as a character is how invested he is in trying to prove something - whatever it is - to himself about Harry Potter, while poor bewildered Harry is wondering where all this vitriol is coming from. As Rowling says, it makes him a very small man to be taking his angst out on a child, but that is to me what makes it funny because Severus is fighting a battle he can never win and trying to prove something that cannot be proved. Harry's very existence is a thorn in his flesh; he can do nothing about it (in fact as we discover he has sworn to protect the child) and really Harry 'owns' him every time simply by comntinuing to exist. Perhaps I'm odd but I do find that funny. In some ways he reminds me of the Wile Coyote from the road runner or Scrat from Ice age, in that he is always doomed to fail where getting one over on Harry Potter is concerned.

I am not convinced that his behaviour towards Harry was part of his spying act either. He enjoyed being nasty to Harry. :whistle:


I also sensed, from book one onwards, that he was going to be an important character in the saga. And so, indeed he proved to be. :) The fact that Rowling keeps him off-stage quite a lot doesn't detract from that. :cool: Of course she was building up his enigma. ;)

I don't know if I knew from book one that he was going to be important, but by the time I'd finished book three I was fairly sure he would be. :cool:

I don't quite understand this. :) Although I accept that nobody has been deliberately wanting to bash Harry in this latest discussion :), I have got the impression that Harry has been judged and found wanting for not having the same adult perspective as Snape, based on their first lesson together. :shrug:

Well I was only replying for myself. I personally have not judged Harry and found him wanting in any way in terms of his relationship with Severus. I am interested to look at what is said and theorise why those things were said - like Harry being cheeky to Snape in that first class. I prefer the idea that he had just had enough of being picked on and wasn't going to take it lying down but find it interesting to consider other possibilities. The thing is that we generally know what is going on in Harry's head but with Snape we can only guess. I really do wonder what his thoughts and feelings were when walking in to the classroom to teach Harry Potter for the first time. :hmm:

And I have no problems whatsoever about judging other characters. For example, Peter for his betrayal of the Potters: I think he fully deserves that judgment! I have no problems about judging Bellatrix for torturing Hermione. OK, those are two extreme examples. Let's take a character I love: Harry. I have no problems about judging him when he does something wrong, e.g. firing Sectumsempra at Draco, a spell he knew nothing about.
Well I was trying to make the distinction between judging actions - such as Peter's betrayal and judging the person. So for instance just because I may be of the opinion that any given character did something wrong doesn't mean that I think they are a 'bad person' or that it means all their actions are suspect. - Like Harry with sectumsempra (or the crucios he tried to use) I think doing those things was wrong and we should not try to whitewash this anymore than we should try to justify Snape's treament of Harry. :rockon:

I get the impression though that some posters want to balance up the good acts against the bad acts of any character and come up with an answer as to whether they were good or bad. I personally don't want to do that and do not find it useful or helpful.


I don't use a different standard when it comes to my other favourite character: Snape. :shrug: :)
Well I try to be impartial - that is all I can say! :lol:

Characters are written to be talked about, understood or dismissed, liked or hated, and ultimately: to learn from. We can learn a lot from each and every character IMO, be that good or bad. We can possibly learn a lot from the costs they pay and the way they are or they become to be based on their wants and needs. Characters need to be judged. Characters depict the possible human being in every way they can or could or should be. They have to be judged. And that judgement can be favorable or less so, depending on the person and the character, and their chemistry together. Some might judge Sev a good person overall, some might not, and it all depends how the value systems overleap.
I agree that characters are to be talked about, but I am uncomfortable with 'judging' them. Perhaps that is because to me that means specifically judging them as good or bad and as I said I don't find that useful or helpful. I prefer to look at their character traits such as courage, humour, determination, discernment, quick thinking etc. and discuss the strengths and flaws of a character rather than trying to judge them as good or bad. To me all people are a mixture of good and bad, and one of the things I love about the HP books s that her characters are a mixture of good and bad. To me it is the shades of grey that give the scope for discussion. :)

I really don't see any Weasley from Bill to Ginny as particularly scared of their parents. And if Snape was bullying any kid in school that would have come out in the holidays and if Snape was bullying one of the Weasleys, I am sure Molly would know about it.
I did not say the Weasley children were scared of Snape. I claim for students like them, it was a personal battle between them and Snape - they did not want their parents or other teachers involved. Meanwhile, with someone like Neville, I expect what Snape could potentially do to him (prominently verbal abuse) caused Neville to be too timid to report Snape's bullying attitude to other professors.
Yeah, I know JKR said that; and that it was personal between Snape and Harry was true, I disagree it was a feud and that it was an enmity that coloured Snape and Harry's relationship; I believe it was coloured by Snape's desire to protect Harry and in the process discover that he came to care for not just Lily's boy, but James Potter's son too IMO.
Snape came to care for James Potter's son? To me, that contradicts canon:
"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!"
From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe...
Snape's emphasis on "him," to me, clearly shows that he disagreed with Dumbledore - Snape had not grown to care for Harry, he was just "always" protecting Harry for Lily's sake.
The EW shows that when it came to Harry and Snape, Harry won hands down in Dumbledore's eyes over Snape. If Harry was bullied I am quite sure Dumbledore would have stopped it.
I agree with what JKR has said about Dumbledore permitting Snape to teach as he wanted - Snape's "horrible" teaching methods served as a lesson and an experience to the students. I think Dumbledore would have only stepped in when Snape became outwardly abusive or dangerously unfair (such as when Harry suspected Dumbledore of having stepped in when Snape possibly tried to fail him). Snape, as I see it, rarely crossed that line, but I do think he was consistently bullying.
Yes; he could, but that would not be unless he wanted Snape to fail and so be punished. If he trusted Snape and was sure about Snape's loyalties, then Voldemort would not give him impossible jobs where Snape would fail before he even started IMO.
I agree, which is why I maintain Voldemort would not ask Snape to deliver Harry Potter to him, even if they were best friends. With Dumbledore around, it would still have been an "impossible job where Snape would fail before he even started."
Sleepy, you misquoted there. It wasn't my post you were answering with this. :relax:
Sorry about that - I must have gotten caught up in quoting you! :)
Once again, I'm not one of the people supporting the 'tough love' theory. I agree it was Snape's choice to be blunt and sarcastic with the students - true to his nature - the only difference being I never saw that kind of behaviour as 'torture'. I reserve that kind of description for the Cruciatus and the like.
Understandable. I agree that Snape's teaching was not "torture" in relation to the Cruciatus Curse, but for an eleven-year-old child, I do think his methods could be torturous to that student.
No, McGonagall is a bit more politically correct in her address:
Professor McGonagall pulled herself back through the portrait hole to face the stunned crowd. She was white as chalk.
‘Which person,’ she said, her voice shaking, ‘which abysmally foolish person wrote down this week’s passwords and left them lying around?’
There was utter silence, broken by the smallest of terrified squeaks. Neville Longbottom, trembling from head to fluffy-slippered toes, raised his hand slowly into the air.
At that point she doesn't know who the culprit was, so is making a comment based purely on her perceptions of the person's actions.

Then again, I can't recall either teacher making a similar remark once Neville 'comes around'. ;)
Yes, McGonagall did call an unknown individual "abysmally foolish," but, as you say, that is before the individual is identified. And, in this case, I agree with McGonagall. Any person who had all the passwords to Gryffindor Tower written down, got them stolen, and allowed Sirius Black to enter with a knife was abysmally foolish. And, as you say, she did not make a similar remark once Neville "comes around."
"I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"


Snape did give Neville detention for poor classwork.
unless you counted Neville melting his sixth cauldron in Potions. Professor Snape...gave Neville detention...

So if giving students detention for poor classwork is helping them to succeed, as you stated re Crabbe and Goyle's detention for poor work in DADA, then Snape did help Neville by giving him detention for poor work in Potions.
Same problem, same consequences for both Slytherins and a Gryffindor.
I agree. I used my own misinterpretation of the scene to defend my stance. I apologize and thank you for the correction. I do not think detentions would have helped the students' grades at all - they were punishment for bad (or nonexistent) work.

This is a scenario when Snape deals out similar punishments to Slytherins and a Gryffindor, but I think it is a fairly isolated incident.

Also, I think, judging by Snape's statement to Malfoy of "If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L. this time around, they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres -" that Snape is willing to help Crabbe and Goyle "work a little harder," and the detention was just to try to get them back on track. I do not get the same feeling of Snape trying to help Neville when he puts Neville in detention.
The problem with this is, Harry and the other students that Snape acted 'his part as a spy' in this manner with, do not know that it is an act, (if that is what it is.) They are experiencing a teacher who is acting in an unprofessional manner with them and they know they don't deserve to be treated like that
I agree with all of your points in this post.
I just found a passage in which Snape gives Harry and Ron ten points from Gryffindor because they seem to be wrestling Neville or hurting him. How's that for being fair? I think this shows that Snape had some sympathy for Neville - it's almost exactly like the scene at the end of OotP when Snape rescues Neville from Goyle. So it happens twice in the same book, and Snape stops it.
I do not think this is an instance of Snape trying to sympathize with Neville. I just think this is one of the many occasions where Snape manipulates the circumstances to allow him to take points (or deal out detentions) from Gryffindors. He never asks what Harry and Ron are doing - he automatically assumes they are fighting, even though he should know they are decent friends with Neville. That is why I think Snape is simply using the pretense of Harry, Ron, and Neville fighting to dock points from Gryffindor, rather than sympathizing with Neville.

Well for me the I guess the first three books may have become a bit blurred together in terms of my view of the characters because I read them in quick sucession. The scenes that lead me to call Snape the 'comedy villain' are probably more in Cos and PoA. The first Snape scene in CoS is a classic. I love the way Ron and Harry are talking about him and he walks up behind them - I find that scene hysterically funny. I also love the duelling club scene where Snape faces Lockhart. But 'Snape the comedy villain' really comes into his own in PoA. The scene of him wearing Neville's grandmother's clothes is a classic. (When I read it I couldn't wait to see Rickman play it) [...]

I know what you mean by the CoS scene, I always laugh in tears when I read that, and I never quite understood why they left it out of the movies...


Goblet of Fire is IMO a sort of transitional book; Voldemort is back; a student is murdered and suddenly it all deadly serious. Snape is still in many ways playing the 'comedy villain' but for him it also gets deadly serious as he returns to Voldemort. The question now is not just whether or not Severus Snape is going to get the better of Harry Potter at school, but the much bigger question - Whose side is Severus Snape actually on?

In OotP Snape and Harry are stillin conflict, but interestingly it is Harry that is in the wrong. Harry does not practice occlumency; Harry takes a pensieve dive; Harry assumes Snape is not trying to help him when he has the vision of Sirius in the Ministry. So Jo is able to keep up the theme of Harry and Snape being in conflict, without it being in the manner of the children's book.

HBP is the book where Harry becomes friends with Snape - albeit without either knowing it. But the book ends with the biggest conflict between Harry and Snape we have seen yet.

For Snape to remain ambiguous he must always be in conflict with Harry.
In the first books which work very well as stand alone stories this is achieved buy trying to make Snape thwart Harry and belittle his attempts tp save the day. As I say - in these books he is never a real threat to Harry.
In the later books - and this starts with GoF really, there is the possibility that Severus is in league with Voldemort and as such is a real danger to Harry.

Great analysis, Cathy, really. :tu::tu::clap:

I agree with you here. I don't like the way he behaved towards Harry either. Part of what I love about him as a character is how invested he is in trying to prove something - whatever it is - to himself about Harry Potter, while poor bewildered Harry is wondering where all this vitriol is coming from. As Rowling says, it makes him a very small man to be taking his angst out on a child, but that is to me what makes it funny because Severus is fighting a battle he can never win and trying to prove something that cannot be proved. Harry's very existence is a thorn in his flesh; he can do nothing about it (in fact as we discover he has sworn to protect the child) and really Harry 'owns' him every time simply by comntinuing to exist. Perhaps I'm odd but I do find that funny. In some ways he reminds me of the Wile Coyote from the road runner or Scrat from Ice age, in that he is always doomed to fail where getting one over on Harry Potter is concerned.

I have always argued that Severus never really got the chance to grow up emotionally. That doesn't redeem his behaviour of course, but it makes it more understandable. When it comes to Draco and how Draco was behaving people seem to forgive hime easier because he's still a kid, a teenager who hasn't grown up yet and who's personality problems or incomplete emotional formation is understandable. But Snape, just as Sirius never grew out teenager emotions. He's an adult in many ways, but emotionally he is hopelessly a kid, and acts as one. For me it just makes it more tragic... It does have a funny side though.


Well I was trying to make the distinction between judging actions - such as Peter's betrayal and judging the person. So for instance just because I may be of the opinion that any given character did something wrong doesn't mean that I think they are a 'bad person' or that it means all their actions are suspect. - Like Harry with sectumsempra (or the crucios he tried to use) I think doing those things was wrong and we should not try to whitewash this anymore than we should try to justify Snape's treament of Harry. :rockon:

I get the impression though that some posters want to balance up the good acts against the bad acts of any character and come up with an answer as to whether they were good or bad. I personally don't want to do that and do not find it useful or helpful.


Well I try to be impartial - that is all I can say! :lol:


I agree that characters are to be talked about, but I am uncomfortable with 'judging' them. Perhaps that is because to me that means specifically judging them as good or bad and as I said I don't find that useful or helpful. I prefer to look at their character traits such as courage, humour, determination, discernment, quick thinking etc. and discuss the strengths and flaws of a character rather than trying to judge them as good or bad. To me all people are a mixture of good and bad, and one of the things I love about the HP books s that her characters are a mixture of good and bad. To me it is the shades of grey that give the scope for discussion. :)

Well, I agree that judging in great and indistinct ways as good or bad isn't really helpful. I mean, we can say that Voldemort is bad, Wormtail is bad and Snape is bad, and still what differences there. We could even add Percy to the list, to confuse it a bit more. I'm not saying one cannot judge them so, but a pure judgement like that wouldn't do too much.
Shades of grey are always the most important, and characters, in books and in real life to are to be judged (thought upon) what they differ in, and not what they are alike in. I could also say what they excel in.
THe very obvious example is of course our beloved Snape, whom would be really hard to squeeze in one category...

Everyone draws their own conclusion, and that is the judging that I mean. I can put a whole lot of traits and characteristics on the balance and I can decide for myself that for instance I'd rather be determined and maybe ruthless like Voldy or Lucius than a weakling like Wormtail, so in that regard WOrmtail is worse for me than those two. Or the other way around...

For my own judgement: Severus is better than a lot, and worse than very few characterwise, all his traits put in the balance, so for me it tilts to the 'good', but of course only after weighing many things.

Cathy Weasley: Great analysis of Snape as a "comedy villain" in the first three books, and the way he transistions into more of a real threat as Voldemort returns and Harry matures. The real irony is that the more Harry gets to know Snape, finding out he is a DE in GoF and then as the Half-Blood Prince, the more threatening he seems to the reader and the more Harry hates him. And yet, we have Dumbledore's ultimate trust in Snape telling us that the opposite is true.

I don't think it was an impossible task for Snape to take Harry to Voldemort if it was required. Barty Crouch managed to do it and IMO if Voldemort believed that Snape was on his side, he would have asked Snape to do it instead. The whole drama of impersonating Moody was so that Crouch could have been at Hogwarts. Sirius broke out Azkaban because Peter was at Hogwarts and in a great position to hand over Harry to Voldemort.

...Sirius broke out Azkaban because Peter was at Hogwarts and in a great position to hand over Harry to Voldemort.I don't think that's mentioned anywhere in the books. As far as Sirius knew, Voldy was dead at that time. He doesn't mention ever hearing the DEs in Azkaban insisting Voldy would rise again. Altho' I'm sure he would probably have thought they had gone looney if they had been saying such. I'm not even sure I remember a quote about Sirius breaking out to protect Harry from Peter. Peter had been there 2 years already and had done nothing of the kind.

Sirius DOES say that he wants to commit the crime for which he was sent to prison. I tend to think this means he broke out because he finally knew Peter's location and could get his revenge for the betrayal of the Potters (and the framing of himself)

However, I really don't think this is the thread for this. I would say I'd take it over to the Sirius thread to discuss with you, however I avoid that thread. I suppose if you disagree, we'll just have to say we don't see the situation the same way?


Barty Crouch managed to do it and IMO if Voldemort believed that Snape was on his side, he would have asked Snape to do it instead. Well, we KNOW Voldy didn't trust Snape at that time - hence the bit in the Graveyard where he speaks about the one he believes has left him forever. However Barty was also in a different position than Snape for whisking Harry away.

He's there as a DADA teacher - he'll be gone at the end of the year anyways. And since Voldy placed the curse he knows that. It's Barney's ONLY mission (altho' spying on Snape might have been a secondary mission?) so it doesn't matter whether Barney can go back and teach the next year or not.

But Snape's mission (once Voldy was reassured of his 'loyalty') was to spy on Albus and he cannot do it IF he isn't at Hogwarts and doesn't have Albus' trust. Therefore, Snape cannot seem to deliver Harry to Voldy. Yes he can place a portkey somewhere, but how to ensure that it is Harry who gets it? That was after all the whole bit behind Barty's making sure Harry was the one to get to the trophy. And how to do so without casting suspicion on himself?

The best way to ensure Harry is the one to take the portkey is to be there when it happens, but without witnesses. That is made considerably more difficult by the fact that Harry doesn't like or trust Snape. This means the only real opportunity would be during a sole detention or during those occlumency lessons. But doing so then would raise Albus' suspicion of Snape and lose Voldy his spy on Albus.

Therefore IF Voldy gives Snape the assignment of kidnapping Harry, he loses his spy on Albus. THAT is the reason as it has been pointed out numerable times on this thread, as to why Snape can NOT be nice to Harry. IF Harry trusts Snape, then there wouldn't be an excuse for Snape to not find a way to get him alone without others knowing.

There is also the fact that Voldy doesn't believe Snape (or any other DE) can lie to him because he's a legilimens. Therefore, IF he wants to keep his spy on Albus, he cannot give Albus suspicions of Snape or a reason to either legilimens him or request a memory of the action.

That's why Snape cannot be seen as someone with whom Harry would ever WANT to be alone.

-----ETA

Cathy Weasley - I'll just add to SIPs comment. That's a wonderful bit of literature analysis. I like the way you take the books as a whole and comment on the change of style. You are correct that the books changed considerably at that point. Both because it's the first death of a good guy (Quirrel died 'off-stage' and was a bad-guy - works still with 'cardboard' people) and because of the change in Snape from 'mean' guy to spy.

Therefore IF Voldy gives Snape the assignment of kidnapping Harry, he loses his spy on Albus. THAT is the reason as it has been pointed out numerable times on this thread, as to why Snape can NOT be nice to Harry. IF Harry trusts Snape, then there wouldn't be an excuse for Snape to not find a way to get him alone without others knowing.

There is also the fact that Voldy doesn't believe Snape (or any other DE) can lie to him because he's a legilimens. Therefore, IF he wants to keep his spy on Albus, he cannot give Albus suspicions of Snape or a reason to either legilimens him or request a memory of the action.

That's why Snape cannot be seen as someone with whom Harry would ever WANT to be alone.

Excellent, Hwyla. :tu: :agree:

Barty/Fake Moody takes the opposite approach. He is super-friendly, but he still can't just drag Harry away to give him to the Dark Lord. He is also friendly with Neville on the surface, because he wants him to help Harry (which doesn't work in the book - Dobby has to give him the gillyweed). However he also does the Imperious Curse on Harry, and does the Cruciatus Curse in front of Neville until it nearly traumatizes him. Those two things are much worse than anything Snape ever does, in my opinion, and the true intention of Fake Moody came through in spite of his diguise. Yes, Snape gave yucky detentions like Harry and Ron pickling rat brains (a reference to Peter?) and Neville disemboweling toads (a preview of Neville killing the snake?) but those are not "unforgivable." JMO

Thanks for your kind words! :blush:

Wolfbrother: IMO there are several reasons why Voldemort doesn't use Snape to grab Harry in GoF the main one being that Voldemort and Snape are not in contact. Voldemort and Barty Crouch make contact through Bertha Jorkins whom Voldemort and Pettigrew capture in Albania. They then make contact with Barty who is happy to rejoin his master. Voldemort wanted Harry Potter's blood to regenerate himself, but he also wanted there to be no witnesses and no suspicion about Harry's dissappearance. He did not want the wizarding world to know he was back. His idea was that Harry would win the tournament and be transported to the graveyard where Voldemort would regenerate and then kill Harry. Perhaps Harry's body would then be returned to the maze and it would all be considered a tragic accident. No suspicion that Voldemort was back.

From OotP onwards Voldemort believes that Snape is working for him spying on Dumbledore. At this point Voldemort wants to hear the full prophecy before deciding what to do next about Potter, so he doesn't actually want to get hold of Harry at this point.

HBP - again Voldemort's plans do not include anyone trying to abduct Harry. Voldemort is planning to take out Dumbledore who has been Harry's mentor and protector, as well as being the only one Voldemort was ever scared of. This will then leave Harry unprotected and more vulnerable.

Peter could never have handed Harry over to Voldemort because once he had found Voldemort he was not in a position to return to Hogwarts because he was known to be an animagus. And I agree with Hwyla - Sirius broke out of prison to kill Peter because he saw Scabbers (Wormtail) sitting on Ron's shoulder in the picture in the Daily Prophet.

ETA: After GoF I think Voldemort was not in a rush to confromt Harry again. Having failed to kill him twice he has to make sure that a third confrontation will definitely result in Harry's death - other wise he's going to loose a lot of credibilty as a powerful Dark Lord :whistle: That's why I think Voldemort backs off and stops trying to kill Harry. Instead he seeks information - the prophecy - and to take out Harry's protector, Dumbledore, so that when he confronts harry again Harry is more vulnerable.

In the first three books Harry the hero is very much a child and Snape represents the adult world that insists that they are just children and should keep their noses out of the business of the adult world. This is a common theme in children's books - for children to enjoy them it must be the child hero that saves the day. In order for this to happen the author has to somehow dispense with the adults who should be sorting it out. Snape is frequently the stern figure telling the Trio not to meddle in things that don't concern them, not to break the rules and that they do not understand the situation. Snape creates a lot of the conflict within the first three books, but he does this without being the real threat to Harry and his friends. This is what I mean when I say that Severus is a 'comedy villain'

Goblet of Fire is IMO a sort of transitional book; Voldemort is back; a student is murdered and suddenly it all deadly serious. Snape is still in many ways playing the 'comedy villain' but for him it also gets deadly serious as he returns to Voldemort. The question now is not just whether or not Severus Snape is going to get the better of Harry Potter at school, but the much bigger question - Whose side is Severus Snape actually on?

In OotP Snape and Harry are stillin conflict, but interestingly it is Harry that is in the wrong. Harry does not practice occlumency; Harry takes a pensieve dive; Harry assumes Snape is not trying to help him when he has the vision of Sirius in the Ministry. So Jo is able to keep up the theme of Harry and Snape being in conflict, without it being in the manner of the children's book.

HBP is the book where Harry becomes friends with Snape - albeit without either knowing it. But the book ends with the biggest conflict between Harry and Snape we have seen yet.

For Snape to remain ambiguous he must always be in conflict with Harry.
In the first books which work very well as stand alone stories this is achieved buy trying to make Snape thwart Harry and belittle his attempts tp save the day. As I say - in these books he is never a real threat to Harry.
In the later books - and this starts with GoF really, there is the possibility that Severus is in league with Voldemort and as such is a real danger to Harry.

This at least is the way I see it.

Ah, OK, I see what you mean now. :tu:

And the others are right: that was brilliant literary analysis. :lol: :)

Yes, a fantastic analysis, Cathy! :clap: I had never considered the books in that way, I love to see new perspectives. :D

Great post CathyWeasley! I enjoyed reading it :)

:tu: great post, TGW!

Thank you. :)

Snape was a brave person. His job was difficult and he successfully fooled Voldemort into thinking he was a Death Eater. I acknowledge all this, but I don't see any reason to sanctify his behavior. Snape was not a nice person to his students, but he was a brave man in the end who made sacrifices for the greater good - that's what makes him one of the most fascinating characters, as evidenced by the twelve versions of this thread. To me, ignoring Snape's faults is a disservice to his character because it simplifies him and makes him look like a traditional hero as opposed to him being an anti-hero.

I don't think I am ignoring his faults. But for me there is a big difference between a sarcastic and tough teacher from who you can always expect a lashing if you fall short of his expectation or at times because he thinks you are not paying attention, or because he would not take cheek and rudeness without giving back a retort that would be unbelievably harsh, and, a bully.

A bully for me is also a coward; he/she is also a weak person who use their position or their place in life to pick on another to harm him, to treat him in such a manner that is cruel and inhuman without any reason. A bully for me in the Books would be Umbridge, because she used her position even to try and cast a Cruciatus, to use blood quills, just because she could. Petunia in a way would be a cruel person, because she allowed her son and husband to bully Harry. Harry was her nephew and in OOTP, it is clear that she makes the decision for Harry, when she told a very concerned Vernon that Harry must stay. And Harry stayed.

The abuse a baby and later a child received that he was happy to escape with a giant he had seen for some 10 minutes was because of how Petunia had allowed her husband and son to treat her orphaned nephew. That to me is cruel behaviour, which allowed a woman's jealousy to go so far as to ill treat a child, she had accepted responsibility for.

Snape IMO was not a bully, because he had reasons to be harsh with Harry. He was not weak for one, he was neither a coward for another, he was also pretty open with his nastiness, so that if there was any concerned person (any of the Weasleys, Hermione, Harry etc) who did think he was bullying, they could take it up with Dumbledore or their Head of House or their parents.

And no one ever does so. Five Weasley boys have studied under Snape before Harry and Ron arrive and not one of them say Snape is a bully. Sirius does not. Lupin who taught Harry in third year does not ask Harry if Snape has ever been cruel to Harry or bullied him, or if there was a problem with Snape, Harry should come to him or go to Dumbledore.

Somehow I cannot equate Snape with Umbridge or Dudley or Vernon and Petunia.

Snape came to care for James Potter's son? To me, that contradicts canon:
"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!"
From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe...
Snape's emphasis on "him," to me, clearly shows that he disagreed with Dumbledore - Snape had not grown to care for Harry, he was just "always" protecting Harry for Lily's sake.

I did not think so. I think Snape thought it was none of Dumbledore's business what he thought of Harry. Snape initially came to Dumbledore because he loved Lily. But years later, Dumbledore is not aware that Snape still loves her. Snape had hidden it from everyone, quite successfully. So much that Dumbledore, the all knowing, thought Snape had moved on. He was shocked that Snape was like him, after he saw the Patronus, unable to move on.

Snape never told Dumbledore he hated Harry. He never told Dumbledore that he did not care for him. He merely answered Dumbledore by showing him the Patronus, which was still Lily's doe. That could be interpreted as his love for Lily, perhaps, but how can it be taken as hate for Harry? I felt Snape just avoided the whole topic, by diverting it towards Lily. Which to me meant that he was not ready to talk about what he felt for Harry to anyone, including Dumbledore.

And what he felt for Harry he showed Harry himself through the memories. Which was not hate at all, but something very different IMO. I very much think Snape cared for Harry; much like Dumbledore did.

I agree, which is why I maintain Voldemort would not ask Snape to deliver Harry Potter to him, even if they were best friends. With Dumbledore around, it would still have been an "impossible job where Snape would fail before he even started."

I disagree. Why would Voldemort care if it was an impossible job or not, seeing he had ordered Draco to kill Dumbledore himself. If Snape had been nice to Harry, Voldemort would have asked Snape to bring Harry to him, and he would care less about how Snape would deal with Dumbledore. For this would be a one off mission, with no chances for Snape to return and if Voldemort had Harry, that was more than half the battle won. He had his horcruxes and he was safe. He could take his time, killing the rest of the Order and Dumbledore, especially when he had made big inroads into the Ministry itself IMO.

-----------------
In a Very Frosty Christmas, Harry is telling Arthur Weasley and Lupin about Snape, what he overheard and that he was convinced, Snape was not on the good side. If Harry was free enough to make statements like these to Lupin and Mr. Weasly, I am quite sure he would have told them if he thought Snape was bullying him or Neville or anyone for that matter. Harry in HBP hates Snape enough to wish him dead. If he did think Snape was a big bully, then I don't think Harry would have kept quiet. He would have spoken. Harry never does, even though he speaks about Snape's conversation with Draco.

'It's Dumbledore's business. Dumbledore trusts Severus and that ought to be good enough for all of us.'

'But', said Harry, 'just say - just say Dumbledore's wrong about Snape -'

'People have said it many times. It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do; therefore, I trust Severus.'

If Harry can talk about Snape's loyalty, then if Snape was bullying Harry, I think Harry would have used it as a point against Snape and he would have pointed out the Snape was bullying him like a DE IMO.

I don't think I am ignoring his faults. But for me there is a big difference between a sarcastic and tough teacher from who you can always expect a lashing if you fall short of his expectation or at times because he thinks you are not paying attention, or because he would not take cheek and rudeness without giving back a retort that would be unbelievably harsh, and, a bully.

I would agree, except that I think Snape does pick on Harry unfairly at times.

A bully for me is also a coward; he/she is also a weak person who use their position or their place in life to pick on another to harm him, to treat him in such a manner that is cruel and inhuman without any reason.

I do not find Snape inhuman. :cool: But I do think he was overly harsh with Harry and certain other students and, yes, I do think he bullied Harry for no reason.

Snape IMO was not a bully, because he had reasons to be harsh with Harry.

I will never agree with this. For one thing, I don't believe he was harsh to Harry only because of his cover as a spy. And for another, while I don't think Snape was wrong to discipline Harry when Harry broke the rules, I do think he was very wrong to speak to Harry about his father the way he did. To me there is no justification for this whatsoever.

If any other character had spoken to Harry like this about James, we'd be all over them like a rash. :huh:

He was not weak for one, he was neither a coward for another, he was also pretty open with his nastiness, so that if there was any concerned person (any of the Weasleys, Hermione, Harry etc) who did think he was bullying, they could take it up with Dumbledore or their Head of House or their parents.

And no one ever does so. Five Weasley boys have studied under Snape before Harry and Ron arrive and not one of them say Snape is a bully. Sirius does not. Lupin who taught Harry in third year does not ask Harry if Snape has ever been cruel to Harry or bullied him, or if there was a problem with Snape, Harry should come to him or go to Dumbledore.

Again, I'm not convinced. Because, you know, Umbridge could have tortured Harry in private and Harry might not have spoken a word about it to anyone. Harry's silence doesn't make her not a cruel bully. :yuhup:

My (woefully ungrammatical) point is not to compare Snape with Umbridge: she is a true villain, Snape most certainly is not. My point is that what other characters may or may not have thought of Snape's private treatment of Harry (had they found out about it) is hardly conclusive proof that his behaviour was somehow OK. (Sorry for the convoluted syntax!)

Although Sirius was (rightly or wrongly) worried about Snape giving Harry a hard time during Occlumency, of course ... :whistle:

Somehow I cannot equate Snape with Umbridge or Dudley or Vernon and Petunia.

No, neither do I! :cool: I judge each character on their individual virtues or vices. And there are gradients. Dudley's brand of bullying is different from Umbridge's, for example: hers is much more serious. That doesn't excuse Dudley or let him off the hook for his behaviour: it does mean that he is not as evil or appalling as Umbridge is. Well, the same goes for Snape. Personally I don't find his treatment of Harry anything like as atrocious as I find Umbridge's treatment of Harry. But I still don't like it. Because to me the canonical evidence is that it was wrong. Even if Snape was trying to teach Harry a lesson -- not to replicate his father's worst faults, as Snape saw it -- he goes about it the worst possible way, IMO. :whistle:

Snape never told Dumbledore he hated Harry. He never told Dumbledore that he did not care for him. He merely answered Dumbledore by showing him the Patronus, which was still Lily's doe. That could be interpreted as his love for Lily, perhaps, but how can it be taken as hate for Harry? I felt Snape just avoided the whole topic, by diverting it towards Lily. Which to me meant that he was not ready to talk about what he felt for Harry to anyone, including Dumbledore.

Actually, I could buy that as an interpretation. :tu: It's what I hoped for, at any rate. :whistle: It's just a shame that JKR apparently doesn't agree with me. :yuhup:

And what he felt for Harry he showed Harry himself through the memories. Which was not hate at all, but something very different IMO.

I think the memories can be interpreted in a number of ways. :cool:

I very much think Snape cared for Harry; much like Dumbledore did.

It would be nice to think so. :) But, IMO, the canonical evidence for this is extremely opaque, at best.

'It's Dumbledore's business. Dumbledore trusts Severus and that ought to be good enough for all of us.'

'But', said Harry, 'just say - just say Dumbledore's wrong about Snape -'

'People have said it many times. It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do; therefore, I trust Severus.'

If Harry can talk about Snape's loyalty, then if Snape was bullying Harry, I think Harry would have used it as a point against Snape and he would have pointed out the Snape was bullying him like a DE IMO.

Again, the argument from Harry's silence doesn't convince me. I well remember having teachers I hated, and I never talked to my parents about them. You just don't, when you're a kid.

Also, I don't think that Snape did bully Harry 'like a DE' and not even Harry himself seemed to take that view. :lol: It's quite an extreme one. :)

I would agree, except that I think Snape does pick on Harry unfairly at times.

Picking unfairly on Harry or any other student once in a while is not bullying IMO. Bullying is a more constant thing, where hurting the victim is the only reason and result. It is rarely, if ever, done for a good purpose, for it has no reason.

Being unfair, is something most of us are guilty of. I know I am. Not deliberately, not wantonly, but at times, I have been less than fair. I am human and imperfect. I presume Snape too was human and imperfect as well.

Unfair he was, maybe a few times in the course of 6 years. That is not bullying. Bullying is to hurt the victim on a regular basis and sometimes to seek them out, hunt them and then hurt them, verbally or physically and I don't Snape was like that. He never went seeking Harry to bully him, if he had free time, for example. Dudley would have/he did. Umbridge would have/she did too IMO.

Snape reacted in a less than pleasant manner, a brusque manner and was like all other people, unfair at times. Even Dumbledore was, when he found himself disgusted by Snape; when he did not punish Sirius for the werewolf incident, even though it might have killed Snape. The scene on the hill for me would make Dumbledore unfair, and the dealing of the werewolf incident made him partial and totally unfair, not anything else.

A couple of bad words or nasty sarcastic language in my book does not make a bully. That is simple human nature and seeing what Snape had to do, how much he had to conceal and how stressful it was to him (the whole spy situation and everything else) it was far less than what one would expect IMO.

Although Sirius was (rightly or wrongly) worried about Snape giving Harry a hard time during Occlumency, of course ... :whistle:

Sirius did not want Snape to be a taskmaster, giving Harry a tough time. Again, that is different from Sirius accusing Snape of being a bully IMO. For if Sirius thought Snape to be a bully, he would not have sent Harry to Snape for Occlumency. The funny/strange part is Sirius accuses Snape of being a DE and then sends Harry to Snape for learning Occlumency.

That alone IMO means Sirius never thought Snape would misuse his position to take advantage of James Potters son. It was not just Lily's son, Sirius was sending to Snape, for Snape to see into his mind, all the secret thoughts, but James Potter's son and he never had a thought that Snape will hurt Harry, will misuse the memories he sees or bully Harry with them.

I find it ironical that Sirius, who sent Snape into the tunnel and who less than 5 minutes ago on page, accused him or a DE, and hating Snape and also knowing Snape's hatred of James and himself, was still willing to send Harry to Snape, for Snape to read his inner most thoughts. Not only that, he was angry, when Snape stopped the classes. I think he did so, because he believed Snape had an integrity that would not allow him to stoop down and hurt Harry, even if he hated James or Sirius. That is an extraordinary amount of trust IMO and such trust is never ever given to bullies.

Not only Sirius, Dumbledore who was in the School and who knows more about the Snape/Harry relation, also trusts Snape to go ahead with the Occlumency lessons.

I can't see a bully being trusted to do this, whatever the reason, for the lessons are not ordinary lessons, but one which if the Legillimens decided, could do a world of harm. :shrug:

If any other character had spoken to Harry like this about James, we'd be all over them like a rash.

No other character spoke about James to Harry in canon, they had no reason to. Snape was in charge of Harry's protection and his opinion of James was that he was careless to the point of arrogance. If he thought Harry was acting like James, I think he told Harry so. Plus, the anger he had on account of James helped him with the memories too IMO.
Because to me the canonical evidence is that it was wrong.

I understand. I, however, saw it differently, because I could see reasons for almost all of them. And the rare few, I discount, for it only showed he made mistakes, like most of us. :)

----------------------
Harry had reached the shed. He leaned against the wooden door and looked up at Hogwarts, with its windows glowing red in the setting sun. Gryffindor in the lead. He'd done it, he'd shown Snape...

I just read this when I was copying something else, and I wonder if Harry hated Snape so much, because he desperately wanted Snape's approval on some level, and he was frustrated because he thought he could not get it and so that turned to hate (something like sour grapes). This could also be another reason why Harry hated Snape with a passion almost and also why he was able to believe the memories so quickly and without a single thought about them. It was as if Harry was relieved to find Snape on the good side, and that he is relieved Snape was not a bad guy, for he implicitly trusts the memories given by a man he had thought of as a DE and a man he had seen kill Dumbledore with his own eyes.

I think Harry was desperate for approval from Snape, just like he was from Dumbledore and the memories satisfied him on a subconscious level, something he had been wanting from Book 1 as young as 11 years.

Picking unfairly on Harry or any other student once in a while is not bullying IMO.

I don't know how to reply to this. I feel that we are going round in circles, so let's just agree to disagree. :)

Sirius did not want Snape to be a taskmaster, giving Harry a tough time. Again, that is different from Sirius accusing Snape of being a bully IMO. For if Sirius thought Snape to be a bully, he would not have sent Harry to Snape for Occlumency. The funny/strange part is Sirius accuses Snape of being a DE and then sends Harry to Snape for learning Occlumency.

Yeah, but it wasn't Sirius who sent Harry to Occlumency ... that wasn't his call. That was Dumbledore's idea, and as head of the Order, his authority outweighed anything Sirius might have had to say about it. All Sirius could do was go along with Dumbledore's plan and, um, voice any concerns he might have had about Snape's methodology to Snape himself. :whistle: I'm putting that tactfully. :lol:

Not only that, he was angry, when Snape stopped the classes. I think he did so, because he believed Snape had an integrity that would not allow him to stoop down and hurt Harry, even if he hated James or Sirius. That is an extraordinary amount of trust IMO and such trust is never ever given to bullies.

I really don't agree with this reading of how Sirius saw Snape. Sadly, I don't think trust came into it at all. The animosity between these two men was just too deep. Sirius and Remus were obviously both very concerned that the Occlumency lessons had stopped but I don't think it was because they both had this deep trust of and esteem for Snape (despite what Dumbledore said). I suppose they both saw Snape's role in the Order as a 'necessary evil' (Remus being more reasonable about that, IMO :whistle: )

No other character spoke about James to Harry in canon, they had no reason to.

So that makes everything that Snape says to Harry about James OK? :shrug:

Snape was in charge of Harry's protection and his opinion of James was that he was careless to the point of arrogance. If he thought Harry was acting like James, I think he told Harry so.

TGW, I don't care what Severus thought of James. :yuhup: Not when it relates to how Snape treated Harry, I mean. The fact remains -- IMO -- that he had absolutely no right to talk to Harry that way.

- Even if he did genuinely think that James had been arrogant and reckless, he still had no right to talk to Harry that way. (There were other ways of correcting Harry, if Snape thought the boy was risking his life.)

- Even if James had bullied Severus on occasion -- and I believe that he did -- Severus still had no right to talk to his son that way.

You and I are never going to agree on this, and I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, so I'll leave it at that.

Plus, the anger he had on account of James helped him with the memories too IMO.

We will just have to agree to disagree on that theory. :)

Anyway, new subject matter. :tu:

Harry had reached the shed. He leaned against the wooden door and looked up at Hogwarts, with its windows glowing red in the setting sun. Gryffindor in the lead. He'd done it, he'd shown Snape...

I just read this when I was copying something else, and I wonder if Harry hated Snape so much, because he desperately wanted Snape's approval on some level, and he was frustrated because he thought he could not get it and so that turned to hate (something like sour grapes). This could also be another reason why Harry hated Snape with a passion almost and also why he was able to believe the memories so quickly and without a single thought about them. It was as if Harry was relieved to find Snape on the good side, and that he is relieved Snape was not a bad guy, for he implicitly trusts the memories given by a man he had thought of as a DE and a man he had seen kill Dumbledore with his own eyes.

I think Harry was desperate for approval from Snape, just like he was from Dumbledore and the memories satisfied him on a subconscious level, something he had been wanting from Book 1 as young as 11 years.

I don't see this at all, I have to say. :shrug:

Harry tends to see the world in black-and-white. :p I think this is down to many factors (which would need further elaborating on in the Harry thread). Be that as it may, I don't see Harry as so insecure (in relation to Snape) that he wanted Snape's approval at all. Harry could be arrogant, as we very well know, and I think as time went on, he made it abundantly clear that he couldn't care less about what Snape thought of him.

Harry is a transparent sort of kid. He often sees things simplistically. ;) (Snape = git. :lol: ) However, I do think Harry's black-and-white view of things actually helped him to accept the truth about Snape (through those no-holds-barred memories) as easily as he did. :tu: He accepted Kreacher's sudden personality transplant with the same ease, after all. :lol:

And personally I find Snape to be a much better drawn character than Kreacher, so Harry's acceptance of Snape's memories didn't jar me ... especially as I was expecting JKR to vindicate Snape anyway. :D :)

Therefore, I still believe that a character who thinks Snape is a bully cannot be wrong, since it is a personal opinion. However, my point is that if one individual thought Snape was a bully, then Snape should be qualified as a bully, at the least, to that character (e.g. Neville).

Of course. Then, Snape calls Neville an idiot, and probably thinks so. It's his personal opinion, so Neville should be qualified as an idiot - from Snape's PoV. But is only his opinion, and we the readers can have other opinion about Neville - and Snape.

I would have to agree with Mr. Sleepyhead on this one. I don't believe Snape was play acting or trying to be helpful in his treatment of the children. I felt the canon descriptions of him smiling snidely and/or maliciously evidenced he was behaving negatively because he wished to inflict pain on others and got enjoyment out of it. I felt he treated some of the adults in canon similarly (i.e. Tonks, the Weasleys, Lupin, Sirius, Lockheart, etc.), so it wasn't behavior limited to the children, imo. I feel that in those cases where Snape found his behavior did not strike a chord with those he was interacting with, he became very upset, and to me that supports the idea that Snape was motivated by deriving joy from his negative treatment of others. I would add that Snape was not universally this way, imo; for example he behaved better with the Slytherins and some others like McGonagall and Dumbledore (usually), imo. What that says to me is that Snape was capable of better behavior with everyone.

Anyway, new subject matter.

:love: :love: :love: Yes, please.

How about getting back to the poll? The most popular options are his inability to move on and his vindictiveness. Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help? And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal?

Yes, I do.

It's hard to say more, of course, because Rowling doesn't flesh out their relationship that much. I don't think Albus was lacking in compassion or insight, but I do think he could have done more.

(I think he could have done more where Harry was concerned too, but that is for another thread.)

Or was Snape beyond accepting help?

I would be very reluctant to say that about Snape, because that would imply the character was incapable of any transformation whatsover ... and I don't believe that is the way Rowling writes him. :cool:

I do think Severus was a very difficult person to get through to. :yuhup:

And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?

Oooh, difficult one. :whistle:

I don't believe that people with such unhappy backgrounds tend to like themselves. :sigh: I think we can claim, from the brief but very vivid picture of his home life, that Severus did not have an affirming father. He certainly didn't seem to like his father very much: he was very reluctant to talk about his home life to Lily when they were kids, it seemed to be a painful subject for him -- not surprisingly.

Harsh behaviour towards other people is, IMO, invariably a symptom of inner woundedness.

As to how self-aware he was ... I think he was probably aware of his own character traits. :whistle:

The most popular options are his inability to move on

To move on after Lily. I think this he could have done. He would have IMO, only he got stuck because Lily died. While he may not have forgotten her nor have stopped loving her, I think he could have easily moved on and I think he would have too, had Lily no died.

(I remember the first time I read DH; I was so disappointed because there was no Snape/Harry confrontation, and this was before I started posting here regularly, and I could not envisage the kind of love JKR was talking about, mainly because I did not see Lily as something perfect and worthy of being loved like Snape loved her. It confused me because I wondered how this girl got Snape's undying love and thought it was not possible that Lily could be loved like that by Snape. It took sometime for me to realise that it was not Lily, but Snape's love that was strong and pure. :))

When she did die, I think Snape could not move on, without doing his bit to bring Lily's killer down. I think he thought it was all over when Voldemort died the first time, but when Dumbledore asked him for help, he realised that his work was not over and so stayed on.

Personally I think he realised over the years that Lily would not have loved him. And I think he was reconciled to it. But I think he would not move on, without completing his work and he died before Voldemort did.

and his vindictiveness.

He was a person who could be nasty if his standards were not met. I don't see it as vindictive. And with Harry he had a special reason. I don't see that vindictive either. I see him as a no nonsense teacher who hates students not concentrating and demanding them to give better than their best in class.

If he finds any student, careless, giggling, whispering and talking, he lets them have it. I don't think this is equal to vindictive.

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal?

Heal his guilt?

His guilt IMO would never quite go away. I think that is something he would need to live with. The most he could do, is to accept that and forgive himself. I very much doubt he could forgive the mistake.

Or was Snape beyond accepting help?

I don't think so. If he was mature enough to leave Lily after her 5th year, because she did not want him, if he was mature enough to watch her get married to James, without harming him or Lily, and if he had enough of a conscience to come to Dumbledore and turn away from Voldemort, I think he would have eventually moved on, on his own.

And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?

I think he was well aware of his flaws. I think Snape on a deeper level, learnt to accept himself for what he was a long time back. He was a proud man and he made no excuses for his mistakes. It was never 'I was forced to join the DEs, or 'I was helpless' or 'They were taking over everywhere' or whatever.

It was always 'I made the mistake of a lifetime and I must pay for them. Even if it take forever and a day'.

He made a terrible mistake when he was 17 or thereabouts and while he repented and atoned for it, I think he also realised that it was a fact he made a mistake and that was something he must live with. Just like he simply stares when Dumbledore says he's disgusted. Snape offers nothing in his own favour. He simply stares at Dumbledore.

I think he would have despised the mistakes he made, but I don't think he was a self hater or someone like that.

If he was someone who loathed himself and his mistakes, he would have never had the courage to show his Dark Mark to Fudge and never be able to give the memories of the meeting on the hill, the SWM and the scene after Lily's death in Dumbledore's office to Harry. Those memories show his utter despair and for him to be okay with Harry seeing it (for such a private person) I think he must have come to terms with himself, accepted himself and his mistakes and also accepted the fact he could never forgive the mistakes he made, but yes, he could and did learn to live with it. In a way it lifted him, made him stand tall and proud.

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help? And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?

Thanks for these new ideas! :tu: :)

Yes, I think Dumbledore could make more efforts to help Snape. But I'm asking myself if it wouldn't be acting against his own game. It was, after all, Snape's feeling of guilt that made him swear to do anything for Dumbledore. Maybe it was wiser to cultivate this guilt and make sure Snape's wounds will never heal? :whistle:

I believe that, at least to some degree, Snape was aware of his flaws. He seems to be an introverted preson, one of those who often analyse themselves. I can definitely see an emotional struggle in him. But quite frequently, he wasn't able to control himself.

And no, I don't think he liked himself. Many things, in his behaviour and physical appareance, indicate he didn't hope to make a pleasant impression on anyone. A neglected look is often a sign of low self-esteem. He probably never considered himself as worthy of much care.

Or was Snape beyond accepting help?

If you meant beyond accepting help to heal his guilt (I think you did and I got it wrong in the previous post), then I think that's not possible. The best Snape, Dumbledore, Sirius or anyone who make mistakes that cost them heavily (loss of loved ones, where they cannot correct their mistakes) can do is to forgive themselves. I don't think they can be made to helped to heal the guilt. The pain might soften and become a lingering emotion of regret over time, but the guilt is hard to over come IMO.

I also agree that Albus could have possibly done more to help Snape (as in 'get' him help) - however, I don't think he 'personally' could have helped much, since Albus was still working on his own regrets. But also, like Useless Charm Master mentioned, it wasn't in Albus' (or the Orders) best interests to help Snape 'heal'. The last thing Albus needed was a Snape who no longer felt guilty.

I see Snape as a person in need of a TON of therapy - and let's face, even years of it might not have helped him overcome his bitter streak. He had a pretty depressing life, it's hard not to be bitter over it. But when it came down to the important bits, Snape functioned 'well' when needed. And I think his regret, guilt and bitterness were the feelings that prodded him to function as needed.

IF Snape had healed and moved 'on', then he wouldn't still be at Hogwarts to protect Harry.

:love: :love: :love: Yes, please.

How about getting back to the poll? The most popular options are his inability to move on and his vindictiveness. Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help? And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?
I think that he could have to a point. It would have been nice to have seen him move on from Lily and as for any vindictiveness -- now that would have been something hard to get rid of there. Once something like that is there -- it's a royal pain to get rid of. It would have taken something major to get rid of it. I think he was beyond help in terms of his vindictiveness. Not so much in terms of moving on though -- I thought that there may have been some hope there in terms of that.

He must have been... to some extent. And that affected things in terms of how he looked at himself. He did his best in terms of showing what he was good at in school -- spell making and potions making, but in the end it wasn't good enough. So I can kind of see where some of his vindictiveness came from.

I'm not sure on that one. From what I could tell -- it seems like he was looking for reassurance at times. The old 'weak seeking out the strong' type of thing.

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal?

I agree with hwyla that that wasn't Dumbledore's priority-- in fact, Snape's guilt gave him a vital tool in the fight against Voldemort. Dumledore may have wished for it on some level, especially later on in their relationship, but never truly wanted to lose the guilt that was helping drive Snape on.

Or was Snape beyond accepting help?

No one wants help like that at first. :lol: I remember first going to a therapist at 15, and I just sat there and didn't say a single word. :yuhup:

I don't think Snape would act any better, really. I think it would take a lot for him to swallow his pride and even begin to allow someone to help him. And make no mistake, he'd be very difficult and snarky as always. :lol: He wasn't beyond help-- few people are-- but I think he'd make it very hard for anyone to help him.

I think he really just expects himself to just tough it out and not give in to emotion or weakness, much as he expects it of others, even when it's almost impossible.
I think he holds himself to such high standards that accepting help would just, to him, be a sign that he's no longer strong enough to face the Dark Lord, protect Harry, etc.

And do you think he was aware of his character flaws?

I think he was aware of some. I think he knew, for instance, the effect his harsh words would have on his students, whatever he expected the result to be.
However, on a deeper level, I don't think he was totally aware of many of his other flaws, or if he was, he believed them not to be flaws. I think he always saw and stuck to his reasoning in what he did, however bad it was.

Did he like himself?

I think he didn't, but channeled a lot of that self-hatred into his work for the Order and, er, other less admirable pursuits.


Um, these answers refer to Snape in his 30's, obviously. I think a lot of these things varied over the years.

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help?
I think that Dumbledore was doing what he could to help Snape, to make him think. Snape's not the kind of person to take well to long discussions or critiques, though; so Dumbledore seems to only make comments when Snape seems to be overreacting, or to reassure Snape that he trusts him and values his contribution. In the end, though, it's only Snape who can heal himself, and I think he does that to some extent at the end of HBP and in DH.


And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?
I'm not sure he was aware of all his flaws. Quite often he feels he's the wronged party, that he's been misunderstood or undervalued -- he doesn't see that he's sometimes part of the problem.

Does he like himself? I think he does, in spite of some lingering insecurities. He recognizes that very few people could do what he's done against Voldemort, and he's very confident in his abilities and skills.

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help?
I think he could have, but not without sacrificing the greater cause somewhat. While it might have been a bit easier to, say, have Snape and Sirius get along a bit better, I don't think Dumbledore really had the time and energy to spare, unfortunately.
And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? I think he was, to a great extent. He certainly could not have been unaware that a number of students disliked him. But being aware of one's "flaws" is a long way from being willing or able to change them. There are certain things about my personality that many people would consider "flaws" but I have no intention of trying to change them.
Did he like himself?I think he took pride in his skills and in being Head of Slytherin. I think he had considerable confidence, and thought himself "better" than certain others, like Karkaroff, or Lockhart. But I do not believe he liked himself , he had, I think, too much guilt and anger inside for that.

I also agree that Albus could have possibly done more to help Snape (as in 'get' him help) - however, I don't think he 'personally' could have helped much, since Albus was still working on his own regrets.

:agree: And it was not in Dumbledore's nature to force his help on those who did not want it or seek it from him. He did not force his opinion or help with the SK affair or with Tom Riddle wanting to go alone at 11 years. Dumbledore offered to help, but he also respected the fact they did not want his help and moved away. While he watched and was alert about things that aroused his concern or suspicion, he was not a person to force his help on anyone. And I think he would have followed it with Snape as well.

But also, like Useless Charm Master mentioned, it wasn't in Albus' (or the Orders) best interests to help Snape 'heal'. The last thing Albus needed was a Snape who no longer felt guilty.

I think he would have still helped Snape, if Snape wanted or needed help. While Dumbledore was not above manipulating people, I don't think he would deliberately deny them a chance to heal or be happy, if they asked him for help for those things. :) (though he would try and manipulate them to still doing the things he wanted to IMO)

I don't think Snape would ask though. He never spoke about his feelings for Lily to Dumbledore; he would not ask for help for his guilt, especially when Dumbledore was so disgusted on the hill.

But also, like Useless Charm Master mentioned, it wasn't in Albus' (or the Orders) best interests to help Snape 'heal'. The last thing Albus needed was a Snape who no longer felt guilty.
I don't think it was necessary for Snape to remain 'unhealed' to be of use to the Order. Nor do I think it was necessary for him to feel guilty to do the work for the Order that he did. Indeed his feelings of remorse which were very strong must have been difficult to hide from Voldemort, adding yet another hard task to his burden.

IMO to suggest that Snape had to remain feeling gulty implies that he was only helping Dumbledore and the Order because he felt guilty and not because he wanted to help bring down the wizard who had killed Lily or even just stop Voldemort because he was evil. And if Snape was only helping Dumbledore out of guilt then it implies that he hasn't undergone much of an internal change.

IMO he could have got over his feelings of guilt and still worked for the order as a spy. In fact it may even have been easier because he would have less emotional baggage to hide from the Dark Lord.

I know there are those who think that Severus was only working for Dumbledore because of the guilt he felt over Lily's death, and not for some "higher" motive. I don't agree with this. Initially he worked for Dumbledore to save Lily. Once Lily was dead he worked in her memory. I think it is significant that Dumbledore did not say something along the lines of "Help me Severus! Help me to bring Lily's murderer down!" That would have been appealing to Snape's desire for revenge. But Dumbledore does not do this.

What Dumbledore sees before him is a man who has lost everything and now wants to die. Severus turned his back on all his aspirations to be "Someone Impressive" when he turned his back on Voldemort. It was this ambition that had been the driving force of his life. Snape had believed that if he was "someone" then the world (including Lily) would be his oyster. Lily being targetted destroyed that illusion. When he turned to Dumbledore he had nothing - no friends, no future - only the possibility of a spell in Azkaban (ETA no pun intended! :whistle: ). But Severus was prepared to give everything up to save Lily's life. Dumbledore was merciful to him by giving him a future and effectively being his friend. So when Lily dies and Severus wants to die too Dumbledore tells him that it would be better for him to live if he lives to prevent Lily's death being in vain. He gives Severus something to live for; he is asking him to take Lily's place as a protector of Harry and a fighter against Voldemort. At the time I think Severus was a broken man and extemely vulnerable. I do not believe that Dumbledore was 'using' or 'manipulating' Severus - I think that Dumbledore knew the depth of Severus's despair and was trying to help him. He was trying to make Severus look forward to the future rather than backward to the past. And it worked.

As such I do not see that Severus's guilt was necessary to continue to fuel his motivation. IMO Severus needed only to remember Lily and and his love for her in order to want to work to protect her son and bring down Voldemort. IMO it was his guilt that caused him to be so bitter, because it was his guilt that made it so painful for him to even look at Harry. I also believe that if he had been able to let go of his guilt and forgive himself then he might have been able to forgive James - in fact I think if he had forgiven himself them it would have been easy for Severus to forgive James, because IMO Severus hated himself more than he hated James.

I don't think that Dumbledore could have helped Severus to get over his guilt though. He was a man of many talents but I don't think he would or could have given Severus the type of help that he needed. I actually think that he wanted Severus to get over his guilt - that is IMO why Dumbeldore is so sad at the "Always" - not because Severus still loves Lily but because he still feels guilty for her death. I don't believe you ever stop loving people whom you have loved. (Even when they hurt you - the reason why you hurt is becasue you love the person - and then you may start to hate them because they have hurt you so deeply. But even though they have hurt you and you hate them underneath all that is love, because if the love stopped then the hurt would stop and then the hate would stop.) So I don't think Dumbledore was surprised athat Snape still loved Lily - I think he was disappointed that he had not moved on and stopped feeling guilty.


I also think that Severus was a difficult man to help. He was rather proud and did not want to feel beholden to people; he wanted to be independent and self-sufficient.

I actually have thought about this a great deal - Snape getting over the guilt - because I wrote a fancfic in which this did happen (called Snape's happy ending) In exploring this avenue of possibilty it struck me that Severus would never accept help - that it would have to be forced upon him; that circumstances would force him into a position of having to become more self aware and deal with his emotions. And incidently I don't think Severus was very self aware at all! He was totally oblivious to the emotions that were driving his behaviour towards Harry. Perhaps I'm weird but I find that lack of self-awareness rather endearing.

Cathy, what a brilliant post. :tu:

I have nothing to add here, except to say: :agree:

Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help? And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?

A welcome change of pace... :lol:

Yes, I think Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort. I also think he was aware he would be working against his own interests if he did so (I can't imagine Snape willingly going back to DEs in that case) - it was Snape's life Vs 'Greater Good' and we all know how such considerations ended...

Beyond help? :huh: Not even Voldemort was represented as 'beyond help', otherwise Harry's offer would have been utterly hypocritical.
I think it was a matter of approachability - different people respond to different treatments (which Dumbledore so aptly proves by maneuvering Snape into protecting Harry), and no one had interest enough to bother with Snape's defense mechanisms - the man could put Acromatulas to shame with his brand of venom. :lol:

Character flaws.... I think he was aware of some of them. I don't think he realized just how callous his sarcasm made him appear to others, or how utterly childish some of his grudges were. On the other hand I do believe he understood his 'inability to move on' in regards to Lily was... uncommon, to say the least, just like he understood that he was not exactly a social butterfly. ;)

Did he like himself? Though question... :hmm:
I think he took pride in some of his character traits - his magical skills, his dedication to the cause of his choice, his ability of self-control. On the other hand, I highly doubt he liked the features that prompted him to join Voldemort in the first place... no one likes feeling inadequate.

How about getting back to the poll? The most popular options are his inability to move on and his vindictiveness. Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal?

I don't feel that Dumbledore's character was such that it extended to helping others on a personal level, except in a very broad sense. Although very wise, I don't believe Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort with Snape or anyone else in that way, because he seemed pretty good at discerning the problems of others, but not so good at coming up with solutions, imo. Dumbledore's strength was in working out the big picture (working on bringing Voldemort down), but he seemed often at a loss when it came to the small picture and shadows (i.e., helping the young developing Voldemort). So I don't think he was capable of making a stronger effort on behalf of Snape to any effect.

Or was Snape beyond accepting help?

I feel this was true also. I don't think Snape wanted any help in overcoming his vindictiveness or his inability to move on. As to the latter, I think Snape saw it as he'd driven Lily away as a friend, then in the wake of his re-kindled emotions for her, ended up playing a role in her death; so I think he felt that by not moving on, he was being loyal to his emotions for her and that helped him to some degree in terms of his feelings of guilt, imo. I think that Snape held on to his feelings of vindictiveness because they were driven by his overall feeling that he'd been dealt a raw hand in life, in many ways and that others were to blame for that rather than himself, imo. I think the reason that Snape lashed out at others in general, was because for the most part, he was unable to lash out at those he blamed directly for various reasons, except in rare instances, imo.

And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?

I think Snape was shown to have come to recognize some of his flaws, and changed his viewpoint relative to those. However, I don't feel that he addressed many of his negative traits.

On the surface, I believe Snape liked himself a lot and held a very high opinion of himself, which I felt drove him to blame others instead of taking personal responsibility for some things, allowing himself to feel that he was generally in the right and better than others, imo. As such, I think he concluded that he was the victim of bad luck due to the behavior and actions of others.

But underneath, I think Snape held a much lower opinion of himself and didn't like himself in many ways. I believe that Snape had a jealous nature and I feel he wanted to be like different people around him throughout his life - but found that his efforts to be so, generally failed. Additionally, I think that deep down he was bearing those burdens he was trying to pass off on the surface (or desperately ignoring them). As a result, I think Snape was basically a very unhappy individual.

How about getting back to the poll? The most popular options are his inability to move on and his vindictiveness. Do you think that Dumbledore could have made a stronger effort to help Snape heal? Or was Snape beyond accepting help? And do you think he was aware of his character flaws? Did he like himself?


I think this is an interesting question.

On that subject I think there's an underlying contrast in the series between Harry and Snape - Harry being the "chosen one" and Snape being the one who was not wanted- not chosen. (However in HBP- we see that Draco is a "chosen one" by Voldemort- knowing the Snape would be the one to rely on all along. Snape surplants Draco and becomes the one chosen by Voldemort as well. )

Anyway- back to the subject.

First I have to consider what we mean by "healing" here. Are we talking about Snape's soul? Or healing his hurt and anger from being the "unchosen" one i.e. being dismissed by Lily for his nemesis. The two are correlated by not the same thing.

IMO Dumbledore had no intention of making Snape "happier" and had no interest in helping him get over his past. Dumbledore needed Snape to be that loathsome unhappy person to Harry and the rest of the world- to keep Snape in good standing with the DE and with Voldemort.

Dumbledore says so himself, he needed Snape to play his part "up until the very end" this means Snape has no room to make nice, or explore any kind of possible amends with Harry. Snape was bitter and he used this to help play his part for Dumbledore. Because it was so close to his true nature- Voldemort nor anyone else- would not suspect anything beyond this behavior.

Snape was in a trap of sorts from the moement he agreed to help, ironically, Harry. He had no room for healing or his role would be useless. This is one of best ironies of this series and why I think JKR is genius.

I know there are those who think that Severus was only working for Dumbledore because of the guilt he felt over Lily's death, and not for some "higher" motive. I don't agree with this. Initially he worked for Dumbledore to save Lily. Once Lily was dead he worked in her memory. I think it is significant that Dumbledore did not say something along the lines of "Help me Severus! Help me to bring Lily's murderer down!" That would have been appealing to Snape's desire for revenge. But Dumbledore does not do this.

That's such a great point - out of many in an amazing post!

But I'm glad that Dumbledore and Snape never discussed Voldemort in terms of revenge, because that wouldn't be very highly evolved in a book all about redemption. The way it's explained, Snape was working to keep Harry alive, which could only be positive, in my opinion.

Dumbledore says so himself, he needed Snape to play his part "up until the very end" this means Snape has no room to make nice, or explore any kind of possible amends with Harry. Snape was bitter and he used this to help play his part for Dumbledore. Because it was so close to his true nature- Voldemort nor anyone else- would not suspect anything beyond this behavior.

Snape was in a trap of sorts from the moment he agreed to help, ironically, Harry. He had no room for healing or his role would be useless. This is one of best ironies of this series and why I think JKR is genius.

And we do have Dumbledore's line in OotP about "some wounds run too deep for healing." I think he said that because he realized the "Always" in Snape's love for Lily that would never truly allow to forget about James. To say it differently, there was bad Karma there that just wouldn't go completely away.

But on the other hand . . . he does say that Snape is "playing a part." And in GoF Dumbledore says that Snape was "no more a Death Eater" than he was, which is echoed by Harry who says that Snape was never Voldemort's man again after Lily was threatened.

So I believe Snape had healed as a human being. Being "deeply wounded" speaks to how much despair he had been through in life, although he was able to keep on going. He was never going to be outrageously happy after the death of Lily, and he must have known many times that his own death could happen at any time, yet he kept on going. That's really the human condition for anyone who has lost a loved one.

He had so much self-control in dealing with Voldemort and people like Bellatrix. I think is a sign of health, and not a weakness, and that strength came from the fact that he knew what he was doing was right. I believe that had a healing effect on him.

One more thing - I think the advice Snape gives Harry during Occlumency lessons is the way he dealt with his troubles. He almost talks about calming down before sleep as a meditative state or Zen.

"You are to rid your mind of all emotion every night before sleep – empty it, make it blank and calm, you understand?"

I doubt that would work for any teenage boy, let alone one with a mind-connection to the Dark Lord. But I think it worked for Snape. And if it didn't - he knew how to brew a Draught of Peace. :)

Beyond help? Not even Voldemort was represented as 'beyond help', otherwise Harry's offer would have been utterly hypocritical.

I wrote beyond accepting help, which is different from being beyond help. One focusses on the opinions and reactions of others (the judgement of characters or readers) and the other deals with Snape himself and his willingness or (in)ability to understand and work on his issues etc.


Personally (oh dear, this is me posting about Snape again! In this century! :scared:), I think that Snape is a highly intelligent character but not at all self-reflective. As I see it, he has a habit of blaming others for his misfortunes. I suppose that staying at Hogwarts wasn't helping. It's a place with most unpleasant and haunting memories and, like Sirius, he seems like a case of arrested development caused by his environment. I think that he would have been able to move past his grudges, his insecurities and his anger if he had been in a healthier environment, one that was unrelated to his youth.

(oh dear, this is me posting about Snape again! In this century! :scared:)

Welcome to the dark side. We have Alihotsy cookies. :elaugh:

I wrote beyond accepting help, which is different from being beyond help. One focusses on the opinions and reactions of others (the judgement of characters or readers) and the other deals with Snape himself and his willingness or (in)ability to understand and work on his issues etc.

I flat out refuse to discuss anything without using my judgment - the Troll contest was bad enough. :grumble:

We don't get to see anyone offer Snape that kind of help, so I can't offer a decisive answer. If I was to make an educated guess, though...

His acceptance would probably depend on the person offering help and the manner of their delivery. In other words, I think mollycoddling (or any other Weasley coddling, for that matter ;) ) would be counter-productive in this case.

But I have no doubt a down-to-earth approach by someone Severus considers his equal would have been met with enough grace to merit some hope. :agree:

I personally do not see Snape as unable 'to move past his grudges'. It is Remus who suggests (in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA) that Snape's anger there is about a 'schoolboy grudge' - and as far as I can see, Remus is entirely wrong in that scene, Snape doesn't talk about their schooldays, When he tells Harry that he should have just let him die like his father (too arrogant, etc), it is clear to me that this was all about the Potters' deaths and about Snape's protection of Harry.

IF there was an occasion where Snape unfairly compared Harry to his father (in other words, where Harry was not doing something that gave Snape the impression of the very same recklessness that James would have enjoyed) then I don't remember it.

I think it's important that we don't hear Snape compare Harry to James until PoA. That is a very unusual year as it brings Remus back into his sphere and the threat of 'mass-murderer' Sirius Black. To lump it all under 'not getting over a grudge' when we now know he had sworn to protect Harry and thought both of them a danger in that seems to ignore his real motivation - at least to me.

I know many believe his apparent dislike of Harry shows this grudge against James - but I do not believe Snape was comparing Harry to James until PoA came along and Harry started sneaking out to Hogsmeade. It's very difficult to do your job of protecting IF the person you're protecting has snuck out. IF there was a 'grudge' then we would have heard his comparison of Harry to James from the very first day.

Now AFTER PoA, I think Snape DOES beginning seeing Harry as more and more like James. But I also don't see it as a 'grudge'. I see it as a reaction to past circumstances (that he had managed to put somewhat behind him) jumping out at him and refusing to be 'ignored'. Holding a grudge is actively done. Having his past affect him is something that pops up for all of us out of nowhere at times. For Snape, it took the form of Remus and Sirius. And for Snape, they represented much more than just memories of 'pranks' as Remus implied. For Snape, they represented an attempt on his life. And I think it unfair to call that a 'schoolboy grudge' as Remus did. Yet it isn't even THAT which has Snape so riled up in the Shack - he wants to capture Sirius because he believes (as does the rest of the world) that he was Lily's betrayer.

I think Snape functioned fairly well, even at Hogwarts before Harry arrived. I think he was a tough, sarcastic teacher (but then so is Minerva in my opinion) and I think he had to set a rather harsh tone from the begining - after all, his first year of teaching included kids who had been witnessed his 6th and 7th year with the Marauders. I'm sure he had to squash the 'Snivellous' nickname. But, Harry's arrival at Hogwarts disturbs his coping mechanism. He is forcefully reminded of James and Lily's marriage - yet we do not hear him compare Harry to James until Harry pulls a stunt that was probably typical of James' caliber of reckless behavior.

For instance - he doesn't even mention James when Harry and Ron arrive in the flying car in 2nd yr. IF Snape was hard set on his grudge and comparing Harry to James without cause, then James would have been part of THAT discussion - but I don't remember him being so. (please post a quote if I'm wrong, been awhile since I reread that)

As for his interactions with Sirius after he learns Sirius was not the betrayer? Well, he also learned that Sirius STILL thought Snape deserved to have actually DIED in the Werewolf Incident. I do not believe animosity to someone who doesn't regret almost killing you (and wishes he HAD) should be considered a 'grudge'. Sirius' words, about his lack of remorse over the incident, are an entirely new insult. Yet Snape still shakes Sirius' hand as Albus requested at the end of GoF (just after the surprise of Sirius' animagi shift, where Snape now knows that Sirius just watched Snape show Fudge his dark mark).

And yet moments after Snape hears Sirius wish the Werewolf Incident had killed Snape, he gives Sirius warning that he is close to the edge of his anger and that if Sirius doesn't stop pushing it, he's currently angry enough to kill. Now, I don't believe that was about the 'pranks' either. He's just captured an escaped 'mass-murderer, who he believes is responsible for Lily's death and who he just heard tell children that he wished his attempt on Snape's life (as Snape sees it) had worked. I'd be livid, too. But mostly I'd be wary. The 'murderer' (as everyone else sees Sirius) who wishes his trick to get you killed had worked is acting threatening? It's practically self-defense. Yet , Snape warns Sirius that he'd better not push farther.

Anyways - I see Snape functioning rather well, until events from his past jump back into his present.

I don't think it was necessary for Snape to remain 'unhealed' to be of use to the Order. Nor do I think it was necessary for him to feel guilty to do the work for the Order that he did. Indeed his feelings of remorse which were very strong must have been difficult to hide from Voldemort, adding yet another hard task to his burden.

IMO to suggest that Snape had to remain feeling gulty implies that he was only helping Dumbledore and the Order because he felt guilty and not because he wanted to help bring down the wizard who had killed Lily or even just stop Voldemort because he was evil. And if Snape was only helping Dumbledore out of guilt then it implies that he hasn't undergone much of an internal change.

IMO he could have got over his feelings of guilt and still worked for the order as a spy. In fact it may even have been easier because he would have less emotional baggage to hide from the Dark Lord.

I know there are those who think that Severus was only working for Dumbledore because of the guilt he felt over Lily's death, and not for some "higher" motive. I don't agree with this. Initially he worked for Dumbledore to save Lily. Once Lily was dead he worked in her memory. I think it is significant that Dumbledore did not say something along the lines of "Help me Severus! Help me to bring Lily's murderer down!" That would have been appealing to Snape's desire for revenge. But Dumbledore does not do this.

What Dumbledore sees before him is a man who has lost everything and now wants to die. Severus turned his back on all his aspirations to be "Someone Impressive" when he turned his back on Voldemort. It was this ambition that had been the driving force of his life. Snape had believed that if he was "someone" then the world (including Lily) would be his oyster. Lily being targetted destroyed that illusion. When he turned to Dumbledore he had nothing - no friends, no future - only the possibility of a spell in Azkaban (ETA no pun intended! :whistle: ). But Severus was prepared to give everything up to save Lily's life. Dumbledore was merciful to him by giving him a future and effectively being his friend. So when Lily dies and Severus wants to die too Dumbledore tells him that it would be better for him to live if he lives to prevent Lily's death being in vain. He gives Severus something to live for; he is asking him to take Lily's place as a protector of Harry and a fighter against Voldemort. At the time I think Severus was a broken man and extemely vulnerable. I do not believe that Dumbledore was 'using' or 'manipulating' Severus - I think that Dumbledore knew the depth of Severus's despair and was trying to help him. He was trying to make Severus look forward to the future rather than backward to the past. And it worked.

As such I do not see that Severus's guilt was necessary to continue to fuel his motivation. IMO Severus needed only to remember Lily and and his love for her in order to want to work to protect her son and bring down Voldemort. IMO it was his guilt that caused him to be so bitter, because it was his guilt that made it so painful for him to even look at Harry. I also believe that if he had been able to let go of his guilt and forgive himself then he might have been able to forgive James - in fact I think if he had forgiven himself them it would have been easy for Severus to forgive James, because IMO Severus hated himself more than he hated James.

I don't think that Dumbledore could have helped Severus to get over his guilt though. He was a man of many talents but I don't think he would or could have given Severus the type of help that he needed. I actually think that he wanted Severus to get over his guilt - that is IMO why Dumbeldore is so sad at the "Always" - not because Severus still loves Lily but because he still feels guilty for her death. I don't believe you ever stop loving people whom you have loved. (Even when they hurt you - the reason why you hurt is becasue you love the person - and then you may start to hate them because they have hurt you so deeply. But even though they have hurt you and you hate them underneath all that is love, because if the love stopped then the hurt would stop and then the hate would stop.) So I don't think Dumbledore was surprised athat Snape still loved Lily - I think he was disappointed that he had not moved on and stopped feeling guilty.


I also think that Severus was a difficult man to help. He was rather proud and did not want to feel beholden to people; he wanted to be independent and self-sufficient.

I actually have thought about this a great deal - Snape getting over the guilt - because I wrote a fancfic in which this did happen (called Snape's happy ending) In exploring this avenue of possibilty it struck me that Severus would never accept help - that it would have to be forced upon him; that circumstances would force him into a position of having to become more self aware and deal with his emotions. And incidently I don't think Severus was very self aware at all! He was totally oblivious to the emotions that were driving his behaviour towards Harry. Perhaps I'm weird but I find that lack of self-awareness rather endearing.

I quoted the whole post because it is so very good:tu::tu:.
I'd also like to make some remarks about it.
I agree that Severus did not need his guilt to motivate his actions. One can know what is the right thing to do without feeling guilty.

I also do not think Dumbledore could have done more for him. First of all, there is all that Cathy said with which I agree that Dumbledore gave him a future which probably saved him from some stupid and reckless act that might have got him killed (which Sev probably wouldn't have minded back then), and second: we don't really know what did the two of them talk about when amongst themselves. Severus didn't show everything that has happened with him over the years to Harry, only what considered him, and what he needed to know. We don't know how much exactly Dumbledore has helped him.

In fact, I would argue to the contrary on the topic of Snape's anger and guilt being useful: an angry and resentful spy is not a very good one. A spy needs to be calculated, cool, and has to keep his wills and wants under control. Severus might have chanelled his guilt in the effort, but never in the work itself. He cannot be facing Voldemort with his heart filled with remorse, guilt and resentment.

On the other hand, the death of a loved one, especially if one is to blame is never to be forgotten. I don't think Sev could ever have felt all right about it. He could have gotten used to the feeling, and if he had lived after the war he might have got some peace of mind knowing that he had revenged Lily, he has protected her son, he finally did something good for the woman he loved, but I seriously doubt he could ever think back on his past and be happy or satisfied about it. There is too much he could have done differently, and there will always be an 'I messed up' feeling about it.
To cut is short: IMO the only way for Severus to lessen his guilt and have the possibility of a somewhat normal future and a life for himslef would've been if he lived after the war. Even then there would be a very long healing process, and he'd probably need someone's help.

I also agree that help needs to be forced upon a person like him. He'd never ask for it (for himself) and he'd feel that any attempt to help him is a criticism of his strenght and abilities.

THe character flaws Severus was aware of were probably more of those which Dumbledore would've considered strengts or not to great flaws.
Severus also considers having, or showing feelings a bit if a weakness, though by Dumbledore those are the greatest strenghts.

He is probably not aware of the fact that he got stuck on a certain emotional level, but he hasn't got the tools or the opportunity to step forwards on that ladder, and there is noone who could help him on that. First he has to feel at peace with himself to be able to move on and he cannot get to that unless he sees his work done. As we all know, that didn't come about. (off topic remark: for all those who wish it did come about I do recomend Cathy's fanfiction:p.)

Did he like himself?

I don't really think that is possible to answer. I doubt that anybody absolutely likes themselves. Everybody has traits one hates or would like to change, everybody has done things one'd rather they didn't, everybody has regrets. There probably are things he likes about himself: it is an accomplishment, and a huge one as a wizard to be able to fool You Know Who, to be a great Occlumens and to be a high level professional in Potions and Dark Arts. He probably was pleased in that area. On a personal level I think he had many many regrets and considered himself either a looser or a total failure. One, who cannot be loved, or does not deserve to be, or that he messes up the best things that came along in his life. That is really not likeable.

I really like WWB's interpretation that Snape lashes out to everybody, because he can't on those his anger is directed to. That is very correct IMO. Anger, guilt, sorrow and resentment will get everybody to lash out to innocent bystanders and hurt people for no good reason sometimes. Of course, most of the people have other things in their lives and eventually calm down, maybe even appologize, but this is all that Severus has. He cannot calm down, and he cannot immerse in anthing other to get his mind off it. So he'll act and react emotionally, and when slams into walls or encounters resistence it only fuels his bad feelings. Perpetuum mobile. IMO :p

I agree that Severus did not need his guilt to motivate his actions. One can know what is the right thing to do without feeling guilty.

With all due respect both for your interpretation and Professor himself (;))...

Knowing and doing are two different things, and action requires proper motivation.

We can argue that Severus promised 'Anything' for Lily's protection and would have kept his word no matter what because he was just that honorable (I tend to agree with that interpretation... partially). But he is a Slytherin and there is a loophole in that agreement which he could have used and still retain his honor as a man of his word (providing it meant enough to him, of course): namely, the fact that Lily WASN'T protected by Dumbledore.

Furthermore, the fact that he did not double-track and leash out against the Order in vengeance but went to confront Dumbledore speaks volumes for me: revenge is not a major motivator in Snape's case.

We never see Snape on a soap box for either side, so my guess is... neither was 'The Greater Good'. He does become less unsympathetic towards strangers near the end of the series ("Lately, only those whom I could not save"), but we do have to think about the years in between. ;)

It is "Lily's son" he agrees to protect, not "The Boy Who Lived" nor "The Chosen One". For me, that means Lily is in the core of his decision... but not necessarily as the cause of his guilt.

Remember the Patronus explanation? How it changes with emotional upheavals, like Tonks' did? We know Snape's Patronus is a doe, meant to represent his love for Lily...

“But this is touching, Severus,” said Dumbledore seriously. “Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?”
“For him ?” shouted Snape. “ Expecto Patronum!”

From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe. She landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office, and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.
“After all this time?”
“Always,” said Snape.

So the emotion remained unchallenged since the initial casting of the spell... and I highly doubt guilt would prove beneficial in the creation of a Patronus. It's not exactly "a happy thought" and the underlying memories are usually anything but, as well. :)

I don't think Snape's conscience merited healing as much as his heart did. And that is one thing Dumbledore couldn't afford to heal: without his desperate love for a woman a decade gone, Snape would have balked at certain aspects of 'Anything'.

Fortunately for Albus, 'amor vincit omnia'. And if anyone insisted on using the fact in the fight against the Dark Lord... it was the Headmaster himself.

JMO, of course. :)

I think that Snape is a highly intelligent character but not at all self-reflective.

I think he was. The only time one could say he was not very self reflective was when he refused to really listen to Lily's words and think a few times more about joining the DEs. Or if he did, he ignored that voice within.

But apart from this one mistake at some 17 years, I think Snape's life has been one of inner questioning and all alone too. He came on his own to Dumbledore, he then worked on himself and IMO died a man, who could never undo the mistakes, but accepted them for what they were. I think that acceptance came as early as on the hill, when he simply listens to Dumbledore when the latter was disgusted with him.

If you meant self-reflective to acquiring a pleasant character, I think Snape was never the nice, pleasant, guy and I think he knew it too. But he was a good guy and even before he left the DEs he had his priorities right (he chose love over Voldemort) and once he left them, he also worked out for himself the right and wrong of his actions and everything IMO.

As I see it, he has a habit of blaming others for his misfortunes.

Could you quote canon for this? For, I think Snape is one character who has never ever blamed anyone for his mistakes. :)

I think that he would have been able to move past his grudges, his insecurities and his anger if he had been in a healthier environment, one that was unrelated to his youth.

To move past grudges is dependent not only upon the person, but also upon the type of interaction with people that formed the grudge IMO. For Snape, I think interaction with certain people left a very deep mark on him, that he was unable to look at them in a different manner, especially when he believed they had not changed, and really I can't say they tried to set things right between Lily's once best friend and themselves either. So Snape's relationships with certain people was stagnant at best and non-existent at worst.

Apart from them, I think Snape held no grudges against anyone else.

posted by Daggerstone
I don't think Snape's conscience merited healing as much as his heart did. And that is one thing Dumbledore couldn't afford to heal: without his desperate love for a woman a decade gone, Snape would have balked at certain aspects of 'Anything'.

I don't think Snape's conscience could ever heal, even if his heart merited such healing.

On the other point, I feel that Snape might have done what he did even if he moved on. In a way I think he moved on. There was the love he felt for Lily, but by then he knew she was unattainable not only because she was dead, but because I think he would have realised that there would be no Snape/Lily. At all. That Lily had chosen James out of her own free will and that was not likely to change in favour of him IMO.

I feel Snape agreed to Dumbledore's request that he help protect Harry, in part, for the reason he gave himself in HBP - to stay out of Azkaban (Spinner's End). I don't feel Snape wished to help protect Harry based on his response in DH TPT, but I do feel that he wanted revenge on Voldemort for killing Lily and for not sparing her as Snape had asked, and that served as another reason why he agreed to help, imo - in order to remain allied with Dumbledore in that regard and toward that effort, imo. I don't feel that Dumbledore's argument was convincing to Snape and I don't think he would have helped on that basis alone at that time. I feel that the points from the Poll that Moriath raised about Snape's character support the idea that Snape would base his decision on his own criteria, rather than any that Dumbledore set out for him, imo.

I feel Snape agreed to Dumbledore's request that he help protect Harry, in part, for the reason he gave himself in HBP - to stay out of Azkaban (Spinner's End).

Actually, he gave that as a reason for staying in Hogwarts after VWI ended. Check the text if you don't believe me. ;)

On the other point, I feel that Snape might have done what he did even if he moved on. In a way I think he moved on. There was the love he felt for Lily, but by then he knew she was unattainable not only because she was dead, but because I think he would have realised that there would be no Snape/Lily. At all. That Lily had chosen James out of her own free will and that was not likely to change in favour of him IMO.

Even I give the Potions Master more credit than that... I don't think his love for Lily was conditioned by reciprocity. It would have been terribly hypocritical of JKR to use his dedication to Lily as the backbone of Snape's story only to turn it into a selfish affair along the 'i'll-love-you-as-long-as-you-love-me-back' lines.

But if by 'move on' you mean 'came to terms with the fact that she never cared in the same way' then I agree. :lol:

But if by 'move on' you mean 'came to terms with the fact that she never cared in the same way' then I agree. :lol:

That's exactly what I meant. :tu: :)

Actually, he gave that as a reason for staying in Hogwarts after VWI ended. Check the text if you don't believe me. ;)

That is the time period I am referring to; that is when Snape made the agreement (DHTPT).

The way it's explained, Snape was working to keep Harry alive, which could only be positive, in my opinion.
The more I think about it, the more I think that Jo was very careful how she worded that conversation. I really don't envy Dumbledore being in the position he was in with Snape so completely defeated and desperate, but he seemed to hit just the right note.


He had so much self-control in dealing with Voldemort and people like Bellatrix. I think is a sign of health, and not a weakness, and that strength came from the fact that he knew what he was doing was right. I believe that had a healing effect on him.
Great point! :tu: I think that using that amazing self control to fool Voldemort would have both assuaged his guilt a little and boosted his self esteem (which I beleive was very low)

One more thing - I think the advice Snape gives Harry during Occlumency lessons is the way he dealt with his troubles. He almost talks about calming down before sleep as a meditative state or Zen.

"You are to rid your mind of all emotion every night before sleep – empty it, make it blank and calm, you understand?"
That is exactly how I see it! To me Seveus was giving Harry this instruction because this is what he himself did every night!

I think that Snape is a highly intelligent character but not at all self-reflectiveI agree!

As I see it, he has a habit of blaming others for his misfortunes.
I think he blames other only because he blames himself but cannot bear the weight of guilt. Kind of like Harry blaming Severus when Sirius died. It made him feel better, but Harry only did it because he himself felt responsible for believing the vision and going off to the ministry. As I see it in the same way Severus feels responsible for Lily's death but it makes him feel better to blame others. I would contrast this with what Peter does which is to deny all responsibility and claim that he really had no choice.

I suppose that staying at Hogwarts wasn't helping. It's a place with most unpleasant and haunting memories and, like Sirius, he seems like a case of arrested development caused by his environment. Good point! :tu: Like Sirius, Severus is forced to reside in a place that holds many unhappy memories.


In fact, I would argue to the contrary on the topic of Snape's anger and guilt being useful: an angry and resentful spy is not a very good one. A spy needs to be calculated, cool, and has to keep his wills and wants under control. Severus might have chanelled his guilt in the effort, but never in the work itself. He cannot be facing Voldemort with his heart filled with remorse, guilt and resentment.
That's what I was thinking. The more strong emotions Severus has the harder it is for him to spy on Voldemort. I think he is a man with what Jane Austen called "an excess of sensibility" or in other words he is a man who feels strong emotions. To put it another way he is not an easy going fellow who will let things wash over him, To me this makes his skill at occlumency all the more astonishing. I think he had to excert an enormous amount of self control and constantly practice occlumency.

Anger, guilt, sorrow and resentment will get everybody to lash out to innocent bystanders and hurt people for no good reason sometimes. :agree: Didn't someone say on the thread that lashing out is a sign of inner pain? I certainly think that this was the case with Severus.

Furthermore, the fact that he did not double-track and leash out against the Order in vengeance but went to confront Dumbledore speaks volumes for me: revenge is not a major motivator in Snape's case.Excellent point! :tu: I had never considered that.

I also agree that Severus did what he did out of love for Lily not because he felt guilty.

He had so much self-control in dealing with Voldemort and people like Bellatrix. I think is a sign of health, and not a weakness, and that strength came from the fact that he knew what he was doing was right. I believe that had a healing effect on him.


I actually think that's neither a sign of strength nor healing. Snape as I see him is very unable to forget his past and try to move on. So, I think the main reason he's very successful at dealing with Voldemort and Bellatrix, is the fact that dealing with them is very crucial to the success of his mission. Which is, I think all he wanted, no matter how healthy and strong he had been.
From the moment Lily had died, I think Snape no more cared about himself. He merely cared about succeeding in the mission, to remove the guilt he felt a little bit, imo.
So I don't think dealing with Voldemort, Bella and other DEs is a sign of strength or health in his case. IMO, it's quite irrelevant here. To me it only refers to and confirms the fact that he can't forget his past.

Could you quote canon for this? For, I think Snape is one character who never ever blamed anyone for his mistake. :)

I think he did. :). Snape blames Sirius or whoever betrayed the Potters for doing so. Not taking in account that he himself was the one who betrayed them in the first place. By telling Voldemort what he'd heard from the prophecy. I would agree that he was serving Voldemort then. But I think he should've considered the fact that whoever betrayed them, too, was under Voldemort's service. And therefore he must've understood their situation. Yet he blames them for a mistake he was responsible for in the first place.
I think that's what WWB, was referring to in his post :).

I actually think that's neither a sign of strength nor healing. Snape as I see him is very unable to forget his past and try to move on. So, I think the main reason he's very successful at dealing with Voldemort and Bellatrix, is the fact that dealing with them is very crucial to the success of his mission. Which is, I think all he wanted, no matter how healthy and strong he had been. From the moment Lily had died, I think Snape no more cared about himself. He merely cared about succeeding in the mission, to remove the guilt he felt a little bit, imo. So I don't think dealing with Voldemort, Bella and other DEs is a sign of strength or health in his case. IMO, it's quite irrelevant here. To me it only refers to and confirms the fact that he can't forget his past.

I agree. What I understood the poll to be referring to was Snape's health and happiness in his moving on. That is why I think it would have been good. It seems to me that if Snape loved Lily as a person, he would want her to be happy - and she was, she found a man she loved, had a child, had a home, etc., and Snape should have been gladened by her happiness from her point of view, because his point of view of her life, didn't bear on her happiness, imo. From there, he could do the same, find someone or something in his life that made him happy and devote himself to that, in addition to doing those things he didn't wish to do, and that would have been a move toward a happier and healthier life for him, imo.

I think he did. :). Snape blames Sirius or whoever betrayed the Potters for doing so. Not taking in account that he himself was the one who betrayed them in the first place. By telling Voldemort what he'd heard from the prophecy. I would agree that he was serving Voldemort then. But I think he should've considered the fact that whoever betrayed them, too, was under Voldemort's service. And therefore he must've understood their situation. Yet he blames them for a mistake he was responsible for in the first place. I think that's what WWB, was referring to in his post :).

Yes that is what I was referring to. I agree with you. :)

I'm not in full agreement, here. Snape has issues (his picture should be by the entry in the dictionary). However, I think it's perfectly fine and healthy to be upset with Sirius if you have good reason to believe he deliberately, cold bloodedly betrayed his best friend and said friend's wife and child after they had put their lives in his hands and he had promised to protect him.

If I'd never been too fond of Sirius in the first place and thought he'd tried to murder me only a few years before that - again, with malice aforethought - I'm not sure that I wouldn't be contemplating some thoughts of very meaningful revenge.

Of course (side issue), while I think Snape was convinced Sirius saw the full implications of the werewolf prank, Snape's biggest blind spot is not being able to follow the way other people think, especially when it's very different from his own line of thought. To him, it's completely obvious that, if you trick someone into entering a room with a transformed werewolf, death is a very likely result. At best, you've just set up your friend Lupin - who was the first werewolf on record as being allowed to attend the school - to do the very thing that people were afraid would happen if a werewolf was allowed to attend Hogwarts.

In Snape's orderly mind, it's impossible to believe Sirius was completely blind to that.

Me, I see Sirius as rather impulsive and sometimes a bit short on the long range planning, especially when dealing with certain situations and certain people.

While Snape's ability to deal successfully with Voldemort and come out alive (except once) may have been rooted in some of the emotional scarring he's been through, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Dorothea Dix is credited with almost single-handedly reforming the treatment of the mentally ill in America, Great Britain, and much of Europe. Much of who she was and what she did with her life was a direct result of being the daughter of an alcoholic, abusive father and a mentally ill, emotionally unavailable mother. She seems to have had many of the difficulties associated with children from such troubled families. Yet, it seems likely that she would never have accomplished what she did - would never have even been in the position to attempt it - without these same problems and difficulties.

She's not alone. How many people throughout history have had not just the right strengths but the right problems - the right weaknesses - to accomplish something great?

Some of you may be familiar with the saying that "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." You don't have to like Snape, but recognize that he laid down his life for Lily. He put it on the line to try and save her. When that failed, he gave up whatever he had hoped to do with his life to be in a position to save her son. When he thought he had failed at that, that Harry was destined to die and that he was powerless to save he, he kept going in the mission Dumbledore had given him to protect the children under his care and to try and stop the madman who was endangering them all. In the end, he died to do what he had to do. I have to respect that.

I think he did. :). Snape blames Sirius or whoever betrayed the Potters for doing so.

I think Snape accused Sirius of being a traitor and James to be too arrogant to believe Dumbledore's information about the traitor present among James' friends, when Dumbledore was proved right. How is that in any way got to do with Snape's mistakes? I don't think there is any connection at all.

Not taking in account that he himself was the one who betrayed them in the first place. By telling Voldemort what he'd heard from the prophecy.

Could you quote canon to say Snape blamed Sirius or indeed another for his mistakes including delivering to Voldemort what he heard of the Prophecy?

But I think he should've considered the fact that whoever betrayed them, too, was under Voldemort's service.

It was not that they were under Voldemort's service. It was that James refused to believe 2 of them could be DEs, and seemed to agree with Sirius one of them was a traitor (Remus) and guarded against him, without checking them. The Potters were ultimately betrayed by the person they thought was in the clear.

But Snape was not referring to that in POA. At that time he did not know about Peter or that Sirius had suspected Lupin. He spoke about Dumbledore's worry that the Potters could be sold out and how James (McGonagall also says this in the Marauder's Map chapter) stood his ground and vouched for Sirius. But that Dumbledore still remained worried, which implied for me, that Dumbledore suspected Sirius and later since no one knew about the switch, everyone thought Sirius was the traitor.

It was not about a DE, it was about a friend who had been allowed to betray, because James refused to accept Dumbledore's offer. That was what Snape was talking about in the Shack and once he knew the truth, I don't think he makes any comments about Sirius at all IMO. (if this is what you were referring to)

On the contrary, it is Sirius who calls Snape a DE in OOTP, even when he knows Snape was working for the Order IMO.

It was not about a DE, it was about a friend who had been allowed to betray, because James refused to accept Dumbledore's offer. That was what Snape was talking about in the Shack and once he knew the truth, I don't think he makes any comments about Sirius at all IMO. (if this is what you were referring to)

Then why do you feel Snape said he wanted revenge on Sirius? He did make that comment; Snape said that he'd hoped he'd be the one to catch Sirius because he wanted revenge (POA). It would seem he was blaming him for something...

Then why do you feel Snape said he wanted revenge on Sirius? He did make that comment; Snape said that he'd hoped he'd be the one to catch Sirius because he wanted revenge (POA). It would seem he was blaming him for something...

Revenge for betraying the Potters to Voldemort is how I understood it. By pretending to be their friend.

He also fully blamed Sirius, James and Remus for the Shack incident. Without getting into too much detail - because this has been discussed ad nauseam and we all know what opinion everyone in this thread holds - I think that he had a share of responsibility because he actively followed the Marauders around, trying to get them expelled. We know that he at least suspected Remus to be a werewolf and, even if he didn't, Snape suspected them to be involved in something that would get them expelled. So walking into the unknown with negative intent and then blaming the whole scenario on his enemies - it's understandable but I would say it qualifies as behaviour that lacks self-reflection, especially years after the incident.

I agree he wants revenge, but IMO it is on Sirius and Lupin for killing Lily.

If we assume that at this point Snape genuinely thinks Sirius was the one who betrayed James and Lily, (as I believe he must - again, a Snape who is prepared to knowingly let Lily's real murderer escape scot free, just so he can get revenge on an innocent man for a personal slight, seems to me so totally inconsistent with the canon Snape, utterly devoted to Lily, revealed in The Prince's Tale in DH that I would totally discard the possibility), then surely his main motivation is vengeance for Lily?


I completely agree with this, It has taken me several reads to incorporate Snape's back story into the POA shack scene. The "mad glint" in his eye and Harry believing he was "beyond all reason", Jo uses to throw us off and we think Snape is very, very bitter and is so bad he can end an innocent mans life based on a school boy hatred. With hind sight this madness becomes more rounded, he believes Sirius assisted in the death of Lily, like Harry he is initially blinded by rage and I think the only think which holds him back from killing Sirius outright is his own guilt about Lily's death and the trio being present to testify Sirius did not give him a reason. I think he is so blinded by pain and rage that he does lose his reason and completely believes in what he is doing. His vengeance has been brewing for years, he hates Lupin and Sirius and he probably at this point feels annoyed by DD who didn't believe his theory on Lupin so I think unlike Harry in this scene he is unable to listen to sense.

I think Snape's greatest weakness is his vindictiveness, he is unable to let things go. But I believe this to be cause by circumstance. His childhood, losing Lily to James, bitterness and hatred of the Marauders, Lily's death and nearly everyone disliking and distrusting him. (He is only trusted on DD word).

I think his greatest strength is his love for Lily, it turned him over to good and gave him the ability to do a dangerous job for the order, though I have to admit it certainly haunted him for his whole life.

He also fully blamed Sirius, James and Remus for the Shack incident.

I rather think/hope he would have kicked himself for believing Sirius of all people (because he knew how much Sirius hated him and how much he hated Sirius IMO).

I think the blame Snape assigned to Sirius and James was not for leading him into the Shack in the sense that they were showing him the way because in that action Snape's own intelligence was also at fault for believing a boy who had done nothing to warrant Snape's trust.

I think Snape blamed Sirius for being willing to show him the way to get into the tunnel to face a werewolf, when that werteowlf was not restrained. That was what IMO Sirius was culpable of IMO. And that was something Snape did not expect of Sirius. And one cannot really blame or fault him for refusing accept this blame; blame for thinking better of Sirius. He did not know at that time that Sirius could be reckless to this extent IMO.

Which is what he tells Harry too.

Without getting into too much detail - because this has been discussed ad nauseam and we all know what opinion everyone in this thread holds - I think that he had a share of responsibility because he actively followed the Marauders around, trying to get them expelled.

I agree. Not for following the Marauders and getting them expelled, but I agree, Snape too had a responsibility in the Shack, that is as far as his actions were concerned, in believing the words of Sirius.

But in suspecting that the Marauders were breaking rules and in wanting them expelled and therefore following them, I am not very sure he was in the wrong.

Month after month the four of them were letting loose a werewolf into Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. I am quite sure that is a punishable/perhaps an expellable crime.

Hagrid was expelled because he was thought to have brought a basilisk into Hogwarts that killed Myrtle. Remus in his werewolf form could have easily killed or cursed some random Hogsmeade citizen or Hogwarts student. That is IMO an offence and Snape suspecting something was wrong wanted to find out. He cannot be faulted for that IMO.

We know that he at least suspected Remus to be a werewolf and, even if he didn't, Snape suspected them to be involved in something that would get them expelled. So walking into the unknown with negative intent and then blaming the whole scenario on his enemies - it's understandable but I would say it qualifies as behaviour that lacks self-reflection, especially years after the incident

I think Snape blamed them for their irresponsible actions (Sirius I mean; Snape did not know James and Lupin were not in the trick) which could cause harm more than anything else. In that respect Sirius was certainly were to blame.

I think Snape never suspected Sirius could lead him into something that could cause him to die. He may have thought Lupin, if he was a werewolf would be secured inside too. That is where Snape made a mistake IMO. He trusted Sirius because at that time he did not think Sirius capable of showing Snape the way into a place where Snape could be killed. That is what Snape blames Sirius and James and Lupin for and IMO he is not very wrong. He learnt the hard way that Sirius could not be trusted at all IMO.

Sirius was culpable.
I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you—your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts."

........
The Servant of Lord Voldemort
"So that's why Snape doesn't like you," said Harry slowly, "because he thought you were in on the joke?"
"That's right," sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin.

I think Snape never suspected Sirius could lead him into something that could cause him to die. He may have thought Lupin, if he was a werewolf would be secured inside too. That is where Snape made a mistake IMO. He trusted Sirius because at that time he did not think Sirius capable of showing Snape the way into a place where Snape could be killed.

You feel that Snape trusted that Sirius, his enemy of 5 years, would tell him how to stop the tree, so that Snape could access the tunnel and get the Marauders in trouble? Why would he believe that?

The reason I find Snape at fault in that incident, too. Is that he kept digging for every clue and sign to find out Remus' secret. IMO, it was not his business to know the secret at all. I think the rest of the students who noticed Remus' behaviour and frequent absence, did accept that he was ill and was worth pity, imo. Like what we saw in TPT. Lily took the marauders' story of Remus' case and didn't search for other clues to get the pitiful boy expelled. So I kind of find Snape's curiosity in that situation questionable. He wasn't merely trying to satisfy his curiosity by unraveling the mystery of Remus' absence. IMO, he was trying to prove him guilty and spread his secret, like what he'd done in PoA. To me, that was quite apparent from the way he spoke about the marauders to Lily (TPT).

While I don't approve of Sirius behaviour, I also find that Snape was quite guilty, too. For his unjustified curiosity, imo.

You feel that Snape trusted that Sirius, his enemy of 5 years, would tell him how to stop the tree, so that Snape could access the tunnel and get the Marauders in trouble? Why would he believe that?

That he believed Sirius and went into the tunnel was Snape's mistake. While he expected Sirius to hurt him, hex him; I don't think Snape thought at that time, Sirius was capable of sending him to his death. Do you think Snape should have thought Sirius hated him enough to kill him? At 15 years?

Snape probably expected James, Remus and Peter inside to hex him and enact another SWM; his suspicion of James and Peter's presence inside the tunnel with Lupin was another reason he thought he was safe from what he suspected Remus to be (he thought James and Lupin were in the prank too; but he realised later this was not a prank). He never thought Sirius's action could lead him to his death. Sure they were bitter enemies, but I think Snape can be excused for thinking Sirius would not send him to die. Enemies in School don't lead another student to their deaths by werewolf mauling. Enemies in School curse/hex/jinx each other one on one or one group on another group. Usually IMO.

But I think Snape came to believe that enemies in School even if they were Gryffindors and Light, could not be trusted at all, once he saw how close he had come to death. Which was why he could never forgive Sirius IMO.

This is not something one forgets for as long as one lives, when it looks like Sirius never apologised, repented or felt any remorse for his action which was IMO as culpable as Snape's handing of the Prophecy if not more so.

Snape at least came in time and warned Dumbledore. Apologised and repented and started working for Dumbledore from when the Potters were alive. Sirius never cared to apologise at that time and in canon he never cared years later either, saying only Snape deseved to die IMO.

Just because Snape lived, it does not turn Sirius's action into a prank IMO, as, just because the Potters died it does not make Snape the main culprit IMO.

We are at a loss because we don't know what Sirius told Snape or how the message was delivered. If Snape was too trusting, then that just makes him more like Lily, who refused to think that Lupin was a werewolf or that her friends would do anything to harm Severus (even though she had seen otherwise in their treatment of him). At 15, they were both naive, in my opinion.

That he believed Sirius and went into the tunnel was Snape's mistake. While he expected Sirius to hurt him, hex him; I don't think Snape thought at that time, Sirius was capable of sending him to his death. Do you think Snape should have thought Sirius hated him enough to kill him? At 15 years?

Yes. Because I feel Snape suspected he would confront a werewolf inside, and I do not believe he felt that Sirius would send him to see a restrained werewolf and leave with evidence that could potentially get the Marauders expelled. Getting hexed while inside would not prohibit Snape from getting them expelled, so I don't feel he would consider that a good reason for Black to give him knowledge to gain entrance. I also feel that Snape believed if he was mistaken, he knew he would confront some other danger because the administration had told him as much - and his enemy had given him the knowledge to bypass the security the school had in place. (POA).

Based on the information from POA and DH TPT, I agree with this relative to the aftermath:

He also fully blamed Sirius, James and Remus for the Shack incident. Without getting into too much detail - because this has been discussed ad nauseam and we all know what opinion everyone in this thread holds - I think that he had a share of responsibility because he actively followed the Marauders around, trying to get them expelled. We know that he at least suspected Remus to be a werewolf and, even if he didn't, Snape suspected them to be involved in something that would get them expelled. So walking into the unknown with negative intent and then blaming the whole scenario on his enemies - it's understandable but I would say it qualifies as behaviour that lacks self-reflection, especially years after the incident.

That he believed Sirius and went into the tunnel was Snape's mistake. While he expected Sirius to hurt him, hex him; I don't think Snape thought at that time, Sirius was capable of sending him to his death. Do you think Snape should have thought Sirius hated him enough to kill him? At 15 years?

I think that Snape's mindset before he went into the Willow can be compared to that of Draco's before he confronted Buckbeak. "If Potter can do it, it must be easy". Snape has the bad habit of understating James's skills, and starts out from the delusion that he is superior to James in every aspect, just because he was skilled at Potions and the Dark Arts. In fact, it's kind of uncharacteristically modest of Snape to admit that he would have died at Lupin's hand if James hadn't pulled him back.

Snape probably expected James, Remus and Peter inside to hex him and enact another SWM; his suspicion of James and Peter's presence inside the tunnel with Lupin was another reason he thought he was safe from what he suspected Remus to be (he thought James and Lupin were in the prank too; but he realised later this was not a prank).
BTW, this was before SWM. Again, if this is what happened, Snape is guilty of malicious intent. He went in expecting a fight, and then complains when he bit off more than he could chew? More likely, he went in expecting to see a caged werewolf, with James and Sirius feeding it treats through the bars.

He never thought Sirius's action could lead him to his death. Sure they were bitter enemies, but I think Snape can be excused for thinking Sirius would not send him to die. Enemies in School don't lead another student to their deaths by werewolf mauling.
Well, this is the kid who wrote a hex that would cause permanent dismemberment for his 'enemies', when he was 15. It does not seem far fetched that he would project the same level of malice on James and Sirius. However, I don't think that Snape expected anything lethal. As I said, Snape expected something that he could brush off, because he underestimated the marauders.

For that matter, I don't think that Sirius expected Snape to actually go through with it. Sirius too, underestimated Snape. IMO, Sirius fully expected Snape to chicken out. After all, who in their right mind would go into a fully transformed werewolf's lair?

Sirius never cared to apologise at that time and in canon he never cared years later either, saying only Snape deseved to die IMO.
And this makes Snape better than Sirius?

You're missing the fact that Sirius was all of sixteen (fifteen acc. to DH) when this happened. Snape on the other hand was an adult, who knew that he was signing the death warrant for a family, including an infant.

Sirius on the other hand, feels that he can talk casually about it, because he never intended to kill Snape. Why else would he be so casual about it? Sirius knows the outcome - 'Snape got the scare of a lifetime, and ended up owing his life to James. Serves him right'. Sirius's reaction would have been a lot different if he had been talking about Snape's death. Also, Sirius does express regret for his actions in OoTP. The fact that he does not regret sending Snape to the shack tells us, IMO, that his conscience is clear on that front. He had no intention of getting Snape killed.

The big difference being, Sirius intended to prank and scare Snape. Snape relaying the prophecy to Voldemort was no prank and no scare. He was willingly conspiring to murder an infant and its family. And that makes all the difference. Thus, comparing Snape's repent for playing a part in Lily's murder to Sirius's lack of repent for the prank serves no purpose.

If there is any comparison to be made, it is between Sirius's regret for allowing the Potters to switch secret keepers, and Snape's regret about Lily.

BTW, this was before SWM. Again, if this is what happened, Snape is guilty of malicious intent. He went in expecting a fight, and then complains when he bit off more than he could chew? More likely, he went in expecting to see a caged werewolf, with James and Sirius feeding it treats through the bars.

Who was biting? Who was going to get chewed? :huh:

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

Again, I think the canon tells us that Snape suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, but he couldn't be sure until he saw Lupin with his own eyes. You could be right that he suspected Lupin would be caged (which reminds me of Oz in Buffy the Vampire Slayer!).

I think that Snape's mindset before he went into the Willow can be compared to that of Draco's before he confronted Buckbeak. "If Potter can do it, it must be easy". Snape has the bad habit of understating James's skills, and starts out from the delusion that he is superior to James in every aspect, just because he was skilled at Potions and the Dark Arts. In fact, it's kind of uncharacteristically modest of Snape to admit that he would have died at Lupin's hand if James hadn't pulled him back.


BTW, this was before SWM. Again, if this is what happened, Snape is guilty of malicious intent. He went in expecting a fight, and then complains when he bit off more than he could chew? More likely, he went in expecting to see a caged werewolf, with James and Sirius feeding it treats through the bars.


Well, this is the kid who wrote a hex that would cause permanent dismemberment for his 'enemies', when he was 15. It does not seem far fetched that he would project the same level of malice on James and Sirius. However, I don't think that Snape expected anything lethal. As I said, Snape expected something that he could brush off, because he underestimated the marauders.

For that matter, I don't think that Sirius expected Snape to actually go through with it. Sirius too, underestimated Snape. IMO, Sirius fully expected Snape to chicken out. After all, who in their right mind would go into a fully transformed werewolf's lair?


And this makes Snape better than Sirius?

You're missing the fact that Sirius was all of sixteen (fifteen acc. to DH) when this happened. Snape on the other hand was an adult, who knew that he was signing the death warrant for a family, including an infant.

Sirius on the other hand, feels that he can talk casually about it, because he never intended to kill Snape. Why else would he be so casual about it? Sirius knows the outcome - 'Snape got the scare of a lifetime, and ended up owing his life to James. Serves him right'. Sirius's reaction would have been a lot different if he had been talking about Snape's death. Also, Sirius does express regret for his actions in OoTP. The fact that he does not regret sending Snape to the shack tells us, IMO, that his conscience is clear on that front. He had no intention of getting Snape killed.

The big difference being, Sirius intended to prank and scare Snape. Snape relaying the prophecy to Voldemort was no prank and no scare. He was willingly conspiring to murder an infant and its family. And that makes all the difference. Thus, comparing Snape's repent for playing a part in Lily's murder to Sirius's lack of repent for the prank serves no purpose.

If there is any comparison to be made, it is between Sirius's regret for allowing the Potters to switch secret keepers, and Snape's regret about Lily.

Those are all very good points. Snape was that teenager who wrote Sectumpsetstra and therefore knew first hand how dangerous 15yr old boys can be. Why would he assume Sirius would tell him anything that would lead to The Marauders expulson? The only arguement is that Snape was arrogant enough to think that he could handle whatever it was like The Marauders. The thing is he couldn't. They were animagi and when transformed did handle Remus well enough so that no one in Hogwarts or Hogsmeade ever suspected what went on let alone be harmed.

I for one do not think that the person Snape was up until GOF was a person to admire. He was it has to be admitted the product of a disfunctional family, but that excuse can only take you so far, that damaged child grew up to be the man who cold-blooded thought that it was fine to gain brownie points by giving his master information that would condemn a family to death and only tried to change the circumstances when he learned that the women he loved was in fact that mother that was the target. If the target had been Alice Longbottom he would not have lifted a finger to save her.

Snape's redemtion was not easy, he had to really fight against his inclnations which had IMO probably been reinforced during his years as a DE.
Those years cannot be swept aside or ignored. We are told what the DE's did, to say that Snape was not involved is not enough. He was IMO not the type of person to stand back and not try to get himself noticed. The child and young teenager that we read about in the memories has his fair share of arrogance.

This to me at least, is what is admirable about Snape, his personal fight against himself more than anything else. And I think he won that fight.

I for one do not think that the person Snape was up until GOF was a person to admire. He was it has to be admitted the product of a disfunctional family, but that excuse can only take you so far, that damaged child grew up to be the man who cold-blooded thought that it was fine to gain brownie points by giving his master information that would condemn a family to death and only tried to change the circumstances when he learned that the women he loved was in fact that mother that was the target. If the target had been Alice Longbottom he would not have lifted a finger to save her.
It's true that Snape was past 17 years old when he became a Death Eater, and therefore technically an adult. Whether he was actually a mature adult is debatable, especially considering that his greatest disappointment came at fifteen during his "worst memory" of losing Lily. The books are full of people from that generation who weren't exactly icons of maturity even at age 21, and some of them had arrested development and couldn't grow up properly.

The books also have more than one character who became disillusioned quickly with life as a Death Eater because young people can be fooled. That's a recurring theme that we also see with Harry and his friends - they are fooled and disillusioned by Quirrell, Lockhart, Lupin (Hermione is furious with him in the Shack), Fake Moody, and especially by Mr. Lovegood even though they are all technically "adults" at seventeen.

The reason I believe Snape was admirable is that he did, indeed, grow up fast as soon as he realized what Voldemort was planning to do, and he never shirked the responsibility for his own actions after that.

I disagree that "Snape before GoF" wasn't admirable. He was the same person before GoF as after, it's just that Harry finds out more about him and sees that he is definitely on the same side as Dumbledore in spite of his darker past, in my opinion.

In fact, Snape was on the good side before the Potters died, and long before Harry ever came to Hogwarts. He was "good" during the first three books as he tried to protect Harry.

GoF is just the turning point because Harry discovers facts about Snape:

1. He was once a Death Eater and Dumbledore kept him from going to jail.
2. He worked for the good side years before "at great personal risk" to himself.
3. Dumbledore trusted him - Snape says it to Fake Moody, and Dumbledore says it to Harry.
4. Snape was shown in Barty Crouch's Foe Glass, just as outraged as Dumbledore or McGongall. There was no reason for Snape to be in that room except that he wanted to save Harry from Barty Jr.
5. Snape is connected with Veritaserum and therefore, the Truth.
6. Snape's Dark Mark had let him know that Voldemort was returning to power, so unlike Fudge, he believed Harry's story about the Graveyard.
7. Harry guesses that Snape had to return to the Graveyard to become a spy again, and that he survived to return to Hogwarts.

All of that is news to Harry, but Snape was the same man before that, and the return to Voldemort part of the plan all along and Harry just didn't know that. If Fudge had believed Snape about Voldemort returning, Snape might have had more options, but once Fudge rejected Dumbledore's ideas, there was no other plan except for Snape to begin spying once again for the Order.

Of course (side issue), while I think Snape was convinced Sirius saw the full implications of the werewolf prank, Snape's biggest blind spot is not being able to follow the way other people think, especially when it's very different from his own line of thought. To him, it's completely obvious that, if you trick someone into entering a room with a transformed werewolf, death is a very likely result. At best, you've just set up your friend Lupin - who was the first werewolf on record as being allowed to attend the school - to do the very thing that people were afraid would happen if a werewolf was allowed to attend Hogwarts.

In Snape's orderly mind, it's impossible to believe Sirius was completely blind to that.

Me, I see Sirius as rather impulsive and sometimes a bit short on the long range planning, especially when dealing with certain situations and certain people.
Completely agree with this! :tu:

So I kind of find Snape's curiosity in that situation questionable. He wasn't merely trying to satisfy his curiosity by unraveling the mystery of Remus' absence. IMO, he was trying to prove him guilty and spread his secret, like what he'd done in PoA. To me, that was quite apparent from the way he spoke about the marauders to Lily (TPT).

While I don't approve of Sirius behaviour, I also find that Snape was quite guilty, too. For his unjustified curiosity, imo.What then of Harry's curiousity regarding Draco Malfoy in HBP? Harry suspects Draco of being up to something just as Severus suspects the Marauders of being up to something. If we censure Snape for his behaviour then surely we must also censure Harry for the same behaviour.

More likely, he went in expecting to see a caged werewolf, with James and Sirius feeding it treats through the bars.I agree that Severus expected to find a werewolf that was in some way restrained. If Sirius knew how to get past the willow then he must have done so and come out unscathed. Werewolves do not discriminate between friend or enemy so I think Severus was only applying his own great logic to the situation: if Sirius could go into the tunnel and remain unharmed then why should Severus consider going into the tunnel dangerous? The piece of information that is missing is that Sirius was an animagus and in dog form was not targetted by the werewolf. That is how Sirius remained unharmed, but Severus did not know this so I think that it was a logical assumption for him to make that he too would be safe in the tunnel.

Sirius on the other hand, feels that he can talk casually about it, because he never intended to kill Snape. Why else would he be so casual about it? Sirius knows the outcome - 'Snape got the scare of a lifetime, and ended up owing his life to James. Serves him right'. Sirius's reaction would have been a lot different if he had been talking about Snape's death. Also, Sirius does express regret for his actions in OoTP. The fact that he does not regret sending Snape to the shack tells us, IMO, that his conscience is clear on that front. He had no intention of getting Snape killed.There is a lot of assuming here which doesn't seem to have any basis in canon. I don't recall Sirius expressing any regret for sending Severus into the tunnel, nor do I see him at any time really consider the prank to be a threat to Severus's life. When it is put to him he just says it would have served him right. I do not see this as evidence of a clear conscience. He may not have intended to get Snape killed (I certainly do not think that Sirius wanted Snape dead and certainly don't think that if Snape had died Sirius could be labelled a murderer) but what I do see in Sirius is a failure to acknowledge that he had endangered Snape's life and express any kind of regret or remorse for it. James recognised that what Sirius had done was a step to far when he was 15/16, but according to the canon Sirius never recognised this. I actually think this is a good piece of writing by Jo because Sirius is flawed - just as Severus is flawed - yet he is still one of Harry's mentors and father figures. I don't want to wash over Sirius's flaws any more than I want to wash over Severus's flaws.

Snape relaying the prophecy to Voldemort was no prank and no scare. He was willingly conspiring to murder an infant and its family.
Again I think murder is too strong a word. Just as Sirius didn't consider the full ramifications of sending Severus into the tunnel, so I don't think Severus considered the full ramifications of giving the information he had to Voldemort. All Severus knew was that the prophecy concerned the Dark Lord. He could not know that Voldemort would even take the prophecy seriously yet alone know what action he would choose to take. Don't get me wrong. Severus was working for the Dark Lord by his own choice. Willingly doing anything for this sort of evil leader immediately makes one culpable to a degree, but I do not think that it is correct or fair to say that Severus was willing to murder an innocent child becasue I do not think that Severus was looking that far ahead. He was not a seer himself afterall! So he could not predict what Voldemort would do. Obviously though big V wasn't going to throw a baby shower for the child. It was not going to be good. But for me it is a big leap from passing on the prophecy to being a willing participant in the murder of a baby. Bella for example I could see actually volunteering for the job, but Severus I think would have seen the death of a baby as unfortunate. It may not seem like a big difference to some but it is a big difference to me.

I agree with you SIP - Snape doesn't really change before or after GoF, but Harry's and perhaps the readers perspective of him does. He is the same man we just understand him better.

It's true that Snape was past 17 years old when he became a Death Eater, and therefore technically an adult. Whether he was actually a mature adult is debatable, especially considering that his greatest disappointment came at fifteen during his "worst memory" of losing Lily. The books are full of people from that generation who weren't exactly icons of maturity even at age 21, and some of them had arrested development and couldn't grow up properly.

The books also have more than one character who became disillusioned quickly with life as a Death Eater because young people can be fooled. That's a recurring theme that we also see with Harry and his friends - they are fooled and disillusioned by Quirrell, Lockhart, Lupin (Hermione is furious with him in the Shack), Fake Moody, and especially by Mr. Lovegood even though they are all technically "adults" at seventeen.

The reason I believe Snape was admirable is that he did, indeed, grow up fast as soon as he realized what Voldemort was planning to do, and he never shirked the responsibility for his own actions after that.

I disagree that "Snape before GoF" wasn't admirable. He was the same person before GoF as after, it's just that Harry finds out more about him and sees that he is definitely on the same side as Dumbledore in spite of his darker past, in my opinion.

In fact, Snape was on the good side before the Potters died, and long before Harry ever came to Hogwarts. He was "good" during the first three books as he tried to protect Harrry.

I think the sticking point with me is I just don't see Snape being dissulutioned. To me there is no moment when Snape realises how wrong he was in following LV. I see him attempting to save Lily, I see see him shamed into asking DD to save her and her family, I see him further shamed into spying for DD. I don't see him full of remorse for having been a DE. Not until GOF. His actions up until then seemed to me just as DD said, he was repaying a debt to Jame's son. The truth is I always felt that there was more to his story, I felt this the strongest when he killed DD. The way it was written had bells flashing for me, but I never, even in DH felt that he was 100% on the good side, I don't feel that now. I think that there always was a little part of Snape that just loved being a DE. I felt that strongest when he told Phineus in TPT not to use the word mudblood. I noticed that he told him not to use the word, It wasn't 'Don't call Hermione by that name', it was 'Don't use that word.' I felt then that it was the word he didn't like, not the fact that Hermione had just been insulted.

I think the sticking point with me is I just don't see Snape being dissulutioned. To me there is no moment when Snape realises how wrong he was in following LV. I see him attempting to save Lily, I see see him shamed into asking DD to save her and her family, I see him further shamed into spying for DD. I don't see him full of remorse for having been a DE. Not until GOF. His actions up until then seemed to me just as DD said, he was repaying a debt to Jame's son. The truth is I always felt that there was more to his story, I felt this the strongest when he killed DD. The way it was written had bells flashing for me, but I never, even in DH felt that he was 100% on the good side, I don't feel that now. I think that there always was a little part of Snape that just loved being a DE. I felt that strongest when he told Phineus in TPT not to use the word mudblood. I noticed that he told him not to use the word, It wasn't 'Don't call Hermione by that name', it was 'Don't use that word.' I felt then that it was the word he didn't like, not the fact that Hermione had just been insulted.

We'll just have to disagree on almost all your points. I believe that Snape wasn't a Death Eater anymore going back many years, as Harry says in "Flaw in the Plan." I believe Snape's actions until his death were the opposite of the way a true Death Eater would act, especially when he is alone in an office with a talking painting telling him not to say "Mudblood." Snape didn't like the word because he knew it was a racial slur, and actually he knew that at age fifteen when he apologized almost immediately to his friend Lily.

And I can't recall Snape ever calling Hermione anything but "Miss Granger." :p

The fact is, in telling Phineas Nigellus to cut out the Pureblood slurs, Snape is walking the walk on the good side, in my opinion. He didn't do that to impress anyone - he was the only living human in the room.

I think that there always was a little part of Snape that just loved being a DE. I felt that strongest when he told Phineus in TPT not to use the word mudblood. I noticed that he told him not to use the word, It wasn't 'Don't call Hermione by that name', it was 'Don't use that word.' I felt then that it was the word he didn't like, not the fact that Hermione had just been insulted.

Dumbledore more or less says the same to Draco on the Astronomy tower.

'I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger, as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognising potions...'
'Please do not use that offfensive word in front of me,' said Dumbledore.
Malfoy gave a harsh laugh.
'You care about me saying "Mudblood" when I am about to kill you?'
'Yes, I do,' said Dumbledore....

I don't see Dumbledore being concerned that Hermione was personally insulted any more or less than Snape does when he says to Phineas, 'Do not use that word!' but I wouldn't say that he didn't care either.

We'll just have to disagree on almost all your points. I believe that Snape wasn't a Death Eater anymore going back many years, as Harry says in "Flaw in the Plan." I believe Snape's actions until his death were the opposite of the way a true Death Eater would act, especially when he is alone in an office with a talking painting telling him not to say "Mudblood." Snape didn't like the word because he knew it was a racial slur, and actually he knew that at age fifteen when he apologized almost immediately to his friend Lily.

And I can't recall Snape ever calling Hermione anything but "Miss Granger." :p

The fact is, in telling Phineas Nigellus to cut out the Pureblood slurs, Snape is walking the walk on the good side, in my opinion. He didn't do that to impress anyone - he was the only living human in the room.

Well I almost did put Miss Granger, Snape is a formal kind of guy.

I like Snape as a charactor. I love his complexity and mystery. I especially love his snarkiness and I am quite willing to admit I may be a little harsh towards in my post, but I will never see him on that hill with DD as being there out of the goodness of his heart. He was there IMO because he had messed up big time regarding Lily's life. If it had been Alice Longbottom, (well no story then) he would not have been there, simple as that. So no I don't see him having an epiphany and realizing that he was a willing part of a murderous gang, I saw him as trying to bargain for Lily's life, period. Not his best hour IMHO.

Dumbledore more or less says the same to Draco on the Astronomy tower.

'I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger, as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognising potions...'
'Please do not use that offfensive word in front of me,' said Dumbledore.
Malfoy gave a harsh laugh.
'You care about me saying "Mudblood" when I am about to kill you?'
'Yes, I do,' said Dumbledore....

I don't see Dumbledore being concerned that Hermione was personally insulted any more or less than Snape does when he says to Phineas, 'Do not use that word!' but I wouldn't say that he didn't care either.

I'm not in DD's thread, but no I don't excuse DD for wording his objection that way. And what has what DD does or not do got to do with how Snape does something? We are all responsible for our own actions. That includes Snape. And it also includes how we think when we are alone.

I'm not in DD's thread, but no I don't excuse DD for wording his objection that way. And what has what DD does or not do got to do with how Snape does something? We are all responsible for our own actions. That includes Snape. And it also includes how we think when we are alone.

I was just trying to point out that I didn't think that your example was a very reliable indicator, as we see Dumbledore a known defender of Muggles and those of mixed blood speaking in a similar way.

I was just trying to point out that I didn't think that your example was a very reliable indicator, as we see Dumbledore a known defender of Muggles and those of mixed blood speaking in a similar way.

I agree. I think it's more important to object to the word being directed at anyone at all. It isn't just offensive because it was used to describe Hermione. Objecting to the word itself indicates to me a broader understanding of the foulness of the word, as opposed to choosing which muggle born not to use it against, which is indicated to have been what Snape did in the past. Seeing him as an adult he objects to the word being used- period. Like DD does. IMO, anyway.

I was just trying to point out that I didn't think that your example was a very reliable indicator, as we see Dumbledore a known defender of Muggles and those of mixed blood speaking in a similar way.

Still not in DD's thread so I'm going try to answer keeping it on Snape, but it is applicable for DD, Molly, Minerva, Flitwick, Tonks, The Wierd Sisters or anyone else. The way I see it insults, racial or otherwise are personal. So if a specific person, ie. Hermione is insulted with the word 'mudblood', then your objection should include that person. That's just the way I see it and of course anyone hearing an insult such as 'mudblood' should object to the word on principle. DD, as far as I know never called anyone 'mudblood' but there was that regretable incident in his youth, so perhaps, just like Snape he had reason for the word itself to cause him pain.

Objecting to the word itself indicates to me a broader understanding of the foulness of the word, as opposed to choosing which muggle born not to use it against, which is indicated to have been what Snape did in the past. Seeing him as an adult he objects to the word being used- period. Like DD does. IMO, anyway.

I agree! :agree: In quoting Dumbledore I was only trying to draw attention to a literary parallel between him and Snape and how they both reacted to the word in a similar way, as I think it tells us something of how Snape felt about the use of the word. As you say Snape objects to the use of the word, as does Dumbledore. In my opinion JKR likes to use this type of parallel in her writing and it is usually done for a good reason.

I don't think it was necessary for Snape to remain 'unhealed' to be of use to the Order. Nor do I think it was necessary for him to feel guilty to do the work for the Order that he did. Indeed his feelings of remorse which were very strong must have been difficult to hide from Voldemort, adding yet another hard task to his burden.

IMO to suggest that Snape had to remain feeling gulty implies that he was only helping Dumbledore and the Order because he felt guilty and not because he wanted to help bring down the wizard who had killed Lily or even just stop Voldemort because he was evil. And if Snape was only helping Dumbledore out of guilt then it implies that he hasn't undergone much of an internal change.


I don't think Snape helped the Order only because of his guilt and that he would stop if healed. But Dumbledore might think so. What I wrote was rather on Dumbledore than on Snape. I firmly believe Snape considered his "anything" as a promise he should keep because of his honour. I only doubted if Dumbledore really understood his best man's feelings and motivations.

Allright. third time lucky.

In real life the use of a racial insult is insulting to say the least. It is a terrible way to speak and should be objected to strenously. Back to TPT and Snape's coneversation with Phineus. When I read the passage in the book I was left with the impression from the way it was written that Snape was objecting to the word, not to the fact that Phineus was insulting to Hermione. I felt this way because of the way I perceived Snape's statement was worded. I'm not claiming that Jo meant it to come across that way to everyone, but it was the impression I got.

DD's conversation with Draco on the tower was specific to that passage and IMO has nothing to do with how Snape reacts to the word 'mudblood.' Perhaps I reacted to the previous memory in TPT when it was the word that caused the breakup with Lily and therefore more to the forefront of my mind.

What then of Harry's curiousity regarding Draco Malfoy in HBP? Harry suspects Draco of being up to something just as Severus suspects the Marauders of being up to something. If we censure Snape for his behaviour then surely we must also censure Harry for the same behaviour.

Well the difference was that Snape was trying to get those he was tailing expelled and show a girl he liked that they were not wonderful (POA/DH), whereas Harry was trying to show that Draco was doing something nefarious in the service of the dark lord, imo (HBP).

I agree that Severus expected to find a werewolf that was in some way restrained. If Sirius knew how to get past the willow then he must have done so and come out unscathed.

To me, even if Snape believed this, in his subsequent discussions of the event (in POA with Harry, in the shack and with Dumbledore) he placed no responsibility on his own actions and I agree with Moriath in that his not doing so, many years later, did show a lack of self-reflection on his part, imo.

I don't recall Sirius expressing any regret for sending Severus into the tunnel, nor do I see him at any time really consider the prank to be a threat to Severus's life. When it is put to him he just says it would have served him right.

Just to clarify, Sirius said 'it served him right', not that it 'would have'. The former I interpreted to mean that the scare (if any) Snape got and any resultant trouble he got in served him right - whereas 'would have' I would have understood to mean it would have served Snape right to have died, jmo.

Again I think murder is too strong a word. Just as Sirius didn't consider the full ramifications of sending Severus into the tunnel, so I don't think Severus considered the full ramifications of giving the information he had to Voldemort. All Severus knew was that the prophecy concerned the Dark Lord. He could not know that Voldemort would even take the prophecy seriously yet alone know what action he would choose to take. Don't get me wrong. Severus was working for the Dark Lord by his own choice. Willingly doing anything for this sort of evil leader immediately makes one culpable to a degree, but I do not think that it is correct or fair to say that Severus was willing to murder an innocent child becasue I do not think that Severus was looking that far ahead.

I respect your view, however, I feel Snape delivered the prophecy, imo, so that Voldemort could do something to ensure against the chances of success of the baby that would be born and threaten his power. I feel Snape realized that the 'something' could include murder, and thus I do feel it is correct and fair to say that he was willing to allow the child to be murdered if that is what Voldemort chose to do. In my judgment, Snape would believe that was the most likely outcome because that is what Voldemort was already decreeing be done to all muggles and muggleborns (without reference to age), in order to forward his goals (PS/SS) - and they were not directly threatening his power, jmo. I feel that JKR saying that Snape wouldn't have cared if it were Neville that Voldemort chose to kill indicates that he would be fine with his efforts in collusion with Voldemort leading to the murder of a baby.

I agree! :agree: In quoting Dumbledore I was only trying to draw attention to a literary parallel between him and Snape and how they both reacted to the word in a similar way, as I think it tells us something of how Snape felt about the use of the word. As you say Snape objects to the use of the word, as does Dumbledore. In my opinion JKR likes to use this type of parallel in her writing and it is usually done for a good reason.

Yes. JKR often uses these paralels. Dumbledore and Snape share the same position here - against racial prejudice.

I agree. I think it's more important to object to the word being directed at anyone at all. It isn't just offensive because it was used to describe Hermione. Objecting to the word itself indicates to me a broader understanding of the foulness of the word, as opposed to choosing which muggle born not to use it against, which is indicated to have been what Snape did in the past. Seeing him as an adult he objects to the word being used- period. Like DD does. IMO, anyway.

I agree! :agree: In quoting Dumbledore I was only trying to draw attention to a literary parallel between him and Snape and how they both reacted to the word in a similar way, as I think it tells us something of how Snape felt about the use of the word. As you say Snape objects to the use of the word, as does Dumbledore. In my opinion JKR likes to use this type of parallel in her writing and it is usually done for a good reason.

I agree, completely. Snape didn't want to hear the slur in reference to any Muggleborn, Hermione or anyone at all. Objecting to the use of the word itself and its meaning accentuates the change in Snape's thinking because it takes away the aspect of personal relationship (ie teacher and student, they know each other, protecting/helping the Trio). It means Snape doesn't want any Muggleborn called by that disrespectful name, whether he even knows them or not. The quote TT provided is a great parallel with Dumbledore not wishing to hear the term period, no matter who it was directed at. IMO.

Allright. third time lucky.
There is no need to repeat your opinions as I understood them perfectly the first time. However, I just disagree with them and have explained my opinions using the canon as I have interpreted it. You are at perfect liberty to disagree with me as I am with you.


I agree, completely. Snape didn't want to hear the slur in reference to any Muggleborn, Hermione or anyone at all. Objecting to the use of the word itself and its meaning accentuates the change in Snape's thinking because it takes away the aspect of personal relationship (ie teacher and student, they know each other, protecting/helping the Trio). It means Snape doesn't want any Muggleborn called by that disrespectful name, whether he even knows them or not.

Absolutely! :agree:

The reason I believe Snape was admirable is that he did, indeed, grow up fast as soon as he realized what Voldemort was planning to do, and he never shirked the responsibility for his own actions after that.

I have to disagree that Snape ever really grew up until Dumbledore's death. Till then, his behaviour is immature and childish, looking for petty revenge against Harry and friends at every opportunity, starting from when he first laid eyes upon Harry. It's rather sad when you think about it. It's truly sad that someone as brilliant as him decided that his intellect and position was best served by thinking up nasty, cruel taunts aimed at school kids and playing petty house-point politics.

I have to disagree that Snape ever really grew up until Dumbledore's death. Till then, his behaviour is immature and childish, looking for petty revenge against Harry and friends at every opportunity, starting from when he first laid eyes upon Harry. It's rather sad when you think about it. It's truly sad that someone as brilliant as him decided that his intellect and position was best served by thinking up nasty, cruel taunts aimed at school kids and playing petty house-point politics.

There is that. There is also his concern for Dumbeldore when he treats him for the ring curse, his going back to spying in GoF knwoing there's a 50% chance he'll be killed before he is given the opportunity to explain why he's late, his staying by Dumbledore when Karkaroff died, the "Anything" line... That happened too. I see no reason to ignore it and brand his behaviour as only immature and childish.

Hi guys. Any chance we could drop the "Who was more evil at 15" debate. We all know it goes nowhere good around here. Snape was not perfect, Sirius and James were not perfect. Let's all accept that and stop trying to decide which is most deserving of being flayed alive.