Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

Allright. third time lucky.

In real life the use of a racial insult is insulting to say the least. It is a terrible way to speak and should be objected to strenously. Back to TPT and Snape's coneversation with Phineus. When I read the passage in the book I was left with the impression from the way it was written that Snape was objecting to the word, not to the fact that Phineus was insulting to Hermione. I felt this way because of the way I perceived Snape's statement was worded. I'm not claiming that Jo meant it to come across that way to everyone, but it was the impression I got.

DD's conversation with Draco on the tower was specific to that passage and IMO has nothing to do with how Snape reacts to the word 'mudblood.' Perhaps I reacted to the previous memory in TPT when it was the word that caused the breakup with Lily and therefore more to the forefront of my mind.

I think that JKR meant the exchange between Phineas and Snape to be more universal in nature, instead of specific just to Hermione. It is in contrast to what Lily thought of him years before - that she was his exception to the rule of believing that Muggleborns were inferior.

I think that little scene is supposed to show that Snape wasn't just thinking about Lily anymore, but about all Mudbloods including Hermione - he has moved on in his thinking and his evolution. Just my opinion.

So what I mean is that Snape's thinking was actually the same as Dumbledore's on the Tower when he told Draco not to use that word. Draco asks Dumbledore "what difference does it make" since he was going to die anyway, and we might ask the same of Snape. But it did matter to them in principle because neither Snape nor Dumbledore was a racist anymore. They had both changed and evolved from what they were when young.

Interestingly, Phineas pointedly does not use the term when speaking directly to the Trio. He calls Ginny "silly", Neville an "idiot", Luna an "oddity" and Hermione "simple", for which the Trio upbraid him. When Hermione suggests that the Sword of Gryffindor might have been taken out for cleaning, Phineas says "Muggleborns" in an apparently disparaging manner.
It seems clear to me that Phineas knew better than to use the term "Mudblood" around those who would object, but did not consider Snape to be one of those. Snape, however, corrects him swiftly, making it clear (IMO) that whatever he might have been in the past, he was certainly no longer a "bloodist".

It seems clear to me that Phineas knew better than to use the term "Mudblood" around those who would object, but did not consider Snape to be one of those.
I rather think Phineas knew better than to use "Mudblood" in front of a Muggle-born (rather than just around those he knew would object), since that would be purely disrespectful, rude, and cruel. I do agree, though, that Phineas clearly thought he was "safe" using the word "Mudblood" in front of Snape.
Snape, however, corrects him swiftly, making it clear (IMO) that whatever he might have been in the past, he was certainly no longer a "bloodist".
I do agree with this. Snape no longer makes a distinction between blood. However, I think the reason for this is because doing so when he was in his fifth year made him lose Lily. Therefore, I agree with eliza101's statement that Snape was not objecting to Hermione being insulted as much as he was to the term "Mudblood" being used, since that word pains him because of his loss. I do think he may have also objected to Hermione being insulted, but his main motivation was for "Mudblood" not to be used.

Meanwhile, I would say Dumbledore, in that scene on the tower, was objecting to both the insult and the word. I know there is no canonical evidence for either of my claims, it is simply how I view the characters. :)

Interestingly, Phineas pointedly does not use the term when speaking directly to the Trio. He calls Ginny "silly", Neville an "idiot", Luna an "oddity" and Hermione "simple", for which the Trio upbraid him. When Hermione suggests that the Sword of Gryffindor might have been taken out for cleaning, Phineas says "Muggleborns" in an apparently disparaging manner.
It seems clear to me that Phineas knew better than to use the term "Mudblood" around those who would object, but did not consider Snape to be one of those. Snape, however, corrects him swiftly, making it clear (IMO) that whatever he might have been in the past, he was certainly no longer a "bloodist".
Ah, thank you, Fubster! :love: That took some research!

There is one character who says "Mudblood" to Hermione and this seems like a real parallel with Snape and Phineas:


“Master,” croaked Kreacher in his bullfrog’s voice, and he bowed low; muttering to his knees, “back in my Mistress’s old house with the blood-traitor Weasley and the Mudblood—“

“I forbid you to call anyone ’blood traitor’ or ’Mudblood,’” growled Harry.

It seems to me that Harry is objecting there to both the "word" and the "meaning." :agree: And he doesn't take up for Hermione personally but makes it a blanket order not to use that word, which is exactly what Snape says to Phineas Nigellus.

Good spotting SIP! That's a clear parallel. :agree:

I think that little scene is supposed to show that Snape wasn't just thinking about Lily anymore, but about all Mudbloods including Hermione - he has moved on in his thinking and his evolution. Just my opinion.


Yes, exactly. I always found direct parallel in this and the moment that Ron finally sees the lives and freedom of House elves as important as a whole— "we don't want another Dobby" (i cant recall the exact words here). I think the later "mudblood" incident was meant to illustrate how far Snape had come from the day he insulted Lily. He now sees the whole picture.

This comment coupled with his statement to Dumbledore of not letting anyone die when he couple possibly intervene -- completes the picture of a a Snape who's concerns has grown well beyond his own interests into a full concern and understanding of the value of human life in a universal sense.

And this makes Snape better than Sirius?

Nope. It actually makes them two sides of the same coin: they both hold petty grudges and make some really lousy friends as teenagers, which costs them most of their adult life. And then they die. :relax:



ETA: It was long, now it's... Obliviated. :lol:

Guys, I think we're going into that "Who was more evil?" thing the mods keep talking about. Plus, the Werewolf Incident's been talked about here over 10 times, I estimate.


Have a slice of yummy DH.

They had descended two more floors when another set of quiet footsteps joined theirs. Harry, whose scar was still prickling, heard them first: He felt in the pouch around his neck for the Marauder’s Map, but before he could take it out, McGonagall too seemed to become aware of their company. She halted, raised her wand ready to duel, and said, “Who’s there?”

“It is I,” said a low voice.

From behind a suit of armor stepped Severus Snape.

Hatred boiled up in Harry at the sight of him: He had forgotten the details of Snape’s appearance in the magnitude of his crimes, forgotten how his greasy black hair hung in curtains around his thin face, how his black eyes had a dead, cold look. He was not wearing nightclothes, but was dressed in his usual black cloak, and he too was holding his wand ready for a fight.

“Where are the Carrows?” he asked quietly.

“Wherever you told them to be, I expect, Severus,” said Professor McGonagall.

Snape stepped nearer, and his eyes flitted over Professor McGonagall into the air around her, as if he knew that Harry was there. Harry held his wand up too, ready to attack.

“I was under the impression,” said Snape, “that Alecto had apprehended an intruder.”

“Really?” said Professor McGonagall. “And what gave you that impression?”

Snape made a slight flexing movement of his left arm, where the Dark Mark was branded into his skin.

“Oh, but naturally,” said Professor McGonagall. “You Death Eaters have your own private means of communication, I forgot.”

Snape pretended not to have heard her. His eyes were still probing the air all about her, and he was moving gradually closer, with an air of hardly noticing what he was doing.

“I did not know that it was your night to patrol the corridors, Minerva.”

“You have some objection?”

“I wonder what could have brought you out of your bed at this late hour?”

“I thought I heard a disturbance,” said Professor McGonagall.

“Really? But all seems calm.”

Snape looked into her eyes.

“Have you seen Harry Potter, Minerva? Because if you have, I must insist ---"

And then all the boring fighting starts. Yawn. ;)

So, questions:
1) Why do you think Snape was there? Coincidence? Or not?
2) When do you think he starts getting suspicious? Do you think Harry or Minerva gave the game away at any point?
3) When do you think he realizes Harry is there?
4) Why was he dressed at that hour?

Any other comments, observations?

1) Why do you think Snape was there? Coincidence? Or not?

I think Snape was searching for Harry to give him the message, because he had felt the Carrows call Voldemort.

2) When do you think he starts getting suspicious? Do you think Harry or Minerva gave the game away at any point?

Minerva IMO. It was not her turn to patrol and she should not have been there. I think the moment Snape saw her he may have guessed she had met Harry. I think he presumed Harry was quite near, under his invisibility cloak; Snape would have also known that she would not allow Harry to walk around freely, since there were many DEs in the School, both as teachers and students. Since he suspected Harry to be with McGonagall, he tried to 'probe the air' and find out Harry. I think he was trying to see some movement (though I don't know how) and catch Harry through that.

3) When do you think he realizes Harry is there?

The moment he saw Minerva.

4) Why was he dressed at that hour?

Maybe he dressed after he felt the Dark mark. He needed not only to meet Harry but Voldemort as well.

Any other comments, observations?

Had Snape met Harry, I think he would have lived. :( But Dumbledore did not intend that to happen. :sad:

1) Why do you think Snape was there? Coincidence? Or not?
I think he was there because Alecto Carrow had alerted him that she had apprehended Harry.
2) When do you think he starts getting suspicious? Do you think Harry or Minerva gave the game away at any point?
I think Snape has suspicions that Harry is there with Minerva from the start, as she is not supposed to be patrolling the corridors. He is already aware Harry is on the premises due to Alecto, and he is searching the air probably looking for signs of Harry under his invisibility cloak.

3) When do you think he realizes Harry is there?
Shortly after seeing Minerva as he knows she is not scheduled to patrol the corridors that night, so she must be there for another reason.

4) Why was he dressed at that hour?
I wouldn't be suprised if he slept much at all that year. However, in "The Final Hiding Place", Voldemort discovers that Harry has found one of his Horcruxes, the Hufflepuff Cup, and decides to tell Snape that Harry might try to enter the school. So, I think that Snape stayed dressed to be ready in anticipation of Harry turning up at the school so he could get to Harry before the Carrows could hand him over to Voldemort.

1) Why do you think Snape was there? Coincidence? Or not?

It seems apparent by the first paragraph that Snape had caught up with them and was following them until Minerva turned around and said, "who's there." Which brings up another subtle clue as to Snape's true motives- Snape did not attack the moment he caught up with them. He could have petrified them the moment he caught up but apparently he had intended to follow them. Unfortunately he let his footsteps be heard.


2) When do you think he starts getting suspicious? Do you think Harry or Minerva gave the game away at any point?

Yes, pretty much her presence there gave her away. Minerva wears her heart on her sleeve (which is not a ctriticism) I imagine she's easy to read. She had no real alibi - as it was not her turn to patrol and Snape as Headmaster, would have been very aware of who belongs where and when.

3) When do you think he realizes Harry is there? He knew before he confronted them.

4) Why was he dressed at that hour? The Dark Mark. Snape was probably dressed anyway IMO- during a time of war when he might be called at any moment, I doubt he wore PJs anyway. By this time in the story it is established that calling Voldemort without a good reason was not tolerated. So the fact that The Carrows had called him means this is something significant. It could only meant that Harry was in the castle. I think Snape expected Harry to come back and knew immediately what was going on.

Guys, I think we're going into that "Who was more evil?" thing the mods keep talking about. Plus, the Werewolf Incident's been talked about here over 10 times, I estimate.

With respect to all Snape-fans, Ignisia on the top. I must say that everything about Snape has been talked about over ten times in this thread. Not to mention the other versions ;)

So, questions:
1) Why do you think Snape was there? Coincidence? Or not?

No. I highly doubt it was a coincidence he had been there. I haven't read DH since ages. But IIRC, Voldemort had warned Snape that Harry might be breaking into the castle and Ravenclaw tower in particular. So I think it was normal he had been taking precautions. He stationed the Carrows near and in the Ravenclaw tower. And stayed awake in case anything happened and required his interference. So I didn't find his presence surprising.

2) When do you think he starts getting suspicious? Do you think Harry or Minerva gave the game away at any point?
According to what he said. Minerva wasn't supposed to be roaming the corridors that night. So I think her appearance in the first place got him suspicious. Whether he knew she'd been accompanying Harry or not, he suspected that something unusual was going on. And that Minerva was aware of that if not actually taking a part in whatever had been going on, then.

3) When do you think he realizes Harry is there?
Um, not sure really. I don't remember the whole incident :hmm: *goes and checks DH*

4) Why was he dressed at that hour?

Well, as I said above, Voldemort must've tipped him off earlier that something unusual might be going on that night. As a spy and head master , surely he wouldn't have stayed in his study with his pajamas on. Being Snape, he had to be double cautious as usual.

Any other comments, observations?

Yes. What I found rather disturbing in that situation, is that Snape had been standing behind a suit of armour. He was the head master and had full authority to do whatever he wants any time of the day. And with Voldemort behind him, none of the other teachers would've dared confront him. Yet, he stands behind a suit of armour as if hiding from someone.. I can only explain it with the possibility that he might've been hoping to catch anything Minerva was saying.


Had Snape met Harry, I think he would have lived. :( But Dumbledore did not intend that to happen. :sad:

I'm not sure about that really. Dumbledore told Snape to tell Harry about the horcrux inside him, only when 'Voldemort keeps Nagini very close to him'. And Snape doesn't see Voldemort untill later during the battle, iirc. So I think even if he met Harry then, he still would've kept his cover as a DE and wouldn't have told Harry about the horcrux, imo.

Yes. What I found rather disturbing in that situation, is that Snape had been standing behind a suit of armour. He was the head master and had full authority to do whatever he wants any time of the day. And with Voldemort behind him, none of the other teachers would've dared confront him. Yet, he stands behind a suit of armour as if hiding from someone.. I can only explain it with the possibility that he might've been hoping to catch anything Minerva was saying.

I agree he was hoping to catch what Minerva was doing or saying. Also Snape had to handle that situation with extreme care. I don't feel it was disturbing that Snape was hiding. I don't think he wanted to confront Minerva at that time. Imo, he was watching and waiting, trying to figure out where Harry was in the castle and when he would have a chance to give him the information/memories.
Minerva says to Slughorn shortly after Snape leaves the castle that they are "dueling to kill." Imo, Snape was hiding because he knew he could be killed by the Order at any time. In fact, as soon as Snape mentions Harry, Minerva attacks him. So even with all his authority as Headmaster, all bets were off as soon as he felt the Dark Mark burn. He knew Voldemort was coming and there would be a battle.

Imo, he was watching and waiting, trying to figure out where Harry was in the castle and when he would have a chance to give him the information/memories.
I originally thought this as well, that Snape asked about Harry so he could give Harry the information (or the memories). However, if Snape was willing to divulge this information at this point, he would have been contradicting Dumbledore:
"If there comes a time when Lord Voldemort stops sending that snake forth to do his bidding, but keeps it safe beside him under magical protection, then, I think, it will be safe to tell Harry."
At this point, I do not think Snape knew Voldemort had decided to keep Nagini protected, since Voldemort went straight from learning about the trio's Gringotts heist to checking all his Horcruxes. Yes, he did notify the Carrows that Harry may try to get into Ravenclaw Tower, but I doubt he mentioned he was keeping Nagini close to him and protected.

That is why I am slightly confused why Snape asks about Harry. What was he going to insist of Minerva? Was he intending to try to win Harry over, and then divulge the crucial bit of information once he knew the time had come to tell Harry?

No matter what his intentions, though, I think Snape poorly approached the situation about asking Minerva if she had seen Harry, since his direct question produced a skirmish between him and McGonagall (hence distancing himself entirely from the good side) - something I do not think was his intention.

I originally thought this as well, that Snape asked about Harry so he could give Harry the information (or the memories). However, if Snape was willing to divulge this information at this point, he would have been contradicting Dumbledore:
"If there comes a time when Lord Voldemort stops sending that snake forth to do his bidding, but keeps it safe beside him under magical protection, then, I think, it will be safe to tell Harry."
At this point, I do not think Snape knew Voldemort had decided to keep Nagini protected, since Voldemort went straight from learning about the trio's Gringotts heist to checking all his Horcruxes. Yes, he did notify the Carrows that Harry may try to get into Ravenclaw Tower, but I doubt he mentioned he was keeping Nagini close to him and protected.

That is why I am slightly confused why Snape asks about Harry. What was he going to insist of Minerva? Was he intending to try to win Harry over, and then divulge the crucial bit of information once he knew the time had come to tell Harry?

No matter what his intentions, though, I think Snape poorly approached the situation about asking Minerva if she had seen Harry, since his direct question produced a skirmish between him and McGonagall (hence distancing himself entirely from the good side) - something I do not think was his intention.

I don't understand what Snape was doing in that scene either. It was as if he'd forgotten how Harry and the other good side characters in the book would regard him at that stage. They regarded him as loyal to Voldemort, a headmaster that was allowing and approving of the atrocities being carried out on the kids at Hogwarts, Dumbledore's murderer and of wanting to turn Harry over to Voldemort to be killed as did all the DEs. It would be like Bella asking McGonagall for the location of Harry at that point in the storyline - so it was strange both that Snape would ask Harry's whereabouts or seek him out at that point, imo. All I could think was that he wanted to get a general location on him and then verify Nagini was caged because he thought it must be getting near the end - and be able to quickly find Harry afterward. But since I don't feel Snape could have spoken to Harry in person at that point in the storyline - I presume he was just going to get a note to him, perhaps through Draco or someone. I felt the way he did get the memories to Harry was very unrealistic, so perhaps there really was no means of delivery in the end that would be realistic to me.

It makes sense to me that Snape was simply trying to ascertain Harry's whereabouts and wellbeing. Snape is an intelligent character and surely he did not assume that Minerva would just hand Harry over. Yet he also had a duty to "play the part" of a DE who is looking out for "Undesirable no. 1"

It may have been that Snape wanted to verify that Harry was still alive. Obviously he couldn't just ask, "Well is the boy ok?" or the DE/Voldermort would be suspicious.

But seeing Minerva react so vehemently would have assured Snape that Harry is Alive and in the castle with her and the other Order members.

Snape was under the impression that Alecto had apprehended Harry, as she had alerted him as such. So, I think he was just trying to find out if Harry was still with the Carrows, as he wouldn't want them to hand Harry over to Voldemort before he had passed on the message.

I originally thought this as well, that Snape asked about Harry so he could give Harry the information (or the memories). However, if Snape was willing to divulge this information at this point, he would have been contradicting Dumbledore:
"If there comes a time when Lord Voldemort stops sending that snake forth to do his bidding, but keeps it safe beside him under magical protection, then, I think, it will be safe to tell Harry."
At this point, I do not think Snape knew Voldemort had decided to keep Nagini protected, since Voldemort went straight from learning about the trio's Gringotts heist to checking all his Horcruxes. Yes, he did notify the Carrows that Harry may try to get into Ravenclaw Tower, but I doubt he mentioned he was keeping Nagini close to him and protected.

Whether Snape realized that Nagini was being guarded by Voldemort, I think between Voldemort's warning about Harry and Dumbledore's instructions, he might have realized the time to give Harry the information was drawing near. I could also see him checking to make sure Harry was okay.
It makes sense to me that Snape was simply trying to ascertain Harry's whereabouts and wellbeing. Snape is an intelligent character and surely he did not assume that Minerva would just hand Harry over. Yet he also had a duty to "play the part" of a DE who is looking out for "Undesirable no. 1"

It may have been that Snape wanted to verify that Harry was still alive. Obviously he couldn't just ask, "Well is the boy ok?" or the DE/Voldermort would be suspicious.

But seeing Minerva react so vehemently would have assured Snape that Harry is Alive and in the castle with her and the other Order members.

I agree.

I have never really understood what Snape was doing here. I would have thought that the logical thing to do would be to try and get McGonangal to understand why it was important to speak to Harry. I would have thought that the logical thing to do would be to surrender his wand to Minerva, she wasn't a monster who would kill hm out of hand and then they could go to the headmaster's office. But then I'm not the author and I don't get the big money for writing a great story. But I still think the scene, it bothers me and thats a fact.

I've read everybody's take on it and I've read the scene over but I still don't really understand Snape's motivations. If he was really trying to get to Harry his actions don't make sense. I know he was supposed to make sure about Nagini, but circumstances were moving so fast that I kept thinking 'Snape, it's time to fish and stop making bait.' Maybe that's the benefit of reading the book and knowing I was getting near the end.

I have never thought of Snape as 'the villain'. I love him as the snarkiy miserable git we all love or hate, but it would have been too predictable to have him as a villain so I suppose I was waiting for the big scene where all is revealed. I just think his actions in that scene, somehow to me don't ring true.

To me, if Snape wanted to know if Harry was okay, he would check with his comrades and ask what the status was - not with those who considered him their enemy. That is why the scene doesn't make any sense. Any real reason he may have had to locate or know anything about Harry, would be obtained from those in league with him easiest and they would have the most accurate and up to date information also. It makes me feel like the scene was simply written in to give McGonagall a chance to show her duelling skills in canon. :lol:.

Snape handing over his wand would have made it impossible for him to reach Harry when the time was right. Minerva would immobilize Snape in any event, and Snape was instructed not to share the info he was to give to Harry with anyone but Harry.

No, handing over his wand was not an option.

If we're going to nitpick the details of his behavior, I think it would be useful to establish a time line base on canon so we can place it in context. Anyone, please correct this or add more details if you have the book at hand. That would be great.

--Carrow touches his/her mark ( I can't recall which one did this first.)

--Then there is some time that passes here- while Minerva and Harry interact with the Carrows.

--The Carrows are out of commission. Minerva Harry and Luna are on the move.

--At some point Harry feels his mark burn - he knows that Voldemort is on his way.

--Minerva sends out her Patronus(es).

--Snape catches up with them (footsteps are heard.)

--Minerva calls out.

The question here is what else could Snape do? and/or Why does he disturb them?

First of all- it's remarkable that Snape does not interrupt them- Minerva calls out Snape. She stops and says, "Who goes there." So it's possible that Snape might not have interrupted them at all if he had not been discovered.

Once being called out, Snape had to play his part- period. He could not hand over his wand- he could do nothing less than appear to be a loyal DE who is under orders to find Potter (for Voldemort). It is also remarkable that even though it is apparent that Snape knows Potter is around - he does not make the first move. He merely defends himself when Minerva attacks. He never tries to catch Harry, in fact, or throws any spells in the air that could have impacted anyone.

Well Snape knew that Harry was in Hogwarts, so I think he would want to make sure that Harry was all right and that the Carrows had not done anything to him. I also think that he knew Harry was with Minerva, which probably made him feel much better. I imagine him thinking "Ah, Minerva has dealt with the Carrows and is now assisting Potter. Better check what they're up to." I think Snape thought at this point that perhaps Harry had done what he came to do and now needed to get out of Hogwarts, so perhaps he was making sure they got away safely. Either way I think he was basically trying to smooth the way for Harry without appearing suspicious. He needed to maintain his cover and not reveal himself to McGonagall - that hadn't changed. As readers we know that it is not long before 'the end' but Snape doesn't have that luxury. He must play his part. Snaoe also had to make sure that Harry was not handed over to Voldemort, and he had to do that without arousing suspicion. He really was betwen a rock and a hard place.

I originally thought this as well, that Snape asked about Harry so he could give Harry the information (or the memories). However, if Snape was willing to divulge this information at this point, he would have been contradicting Dumbledore:
"If there comes a time when Lord Voldemort stops sending that snake forth to do his bidding, but keeps it safe beside him under magical protection, then, I think, it will be safe to tell Harry."

At this point Snape had reason to believe that Harry was at the castle, and Voldemort would soon be as well. I agree he would not have known that it was already the right time; the Shack scene seems a pretty clear indication to me that he was seeing the Nagini cage for the first time just before his murder. He might have seen himself as facing a choice between telling Harry at the right time, or not telling him at all.

That is why I am slightly confused why Snape asks about Harry. What was he going to insist of Minerva? Was he intending to try to win Harry over, and then divulge the crucial bit of information once he knew the time had come to tell Harry?

I think this is explained by the poster who pointed out that Snape has probably been following Minerva for some time. (Harry hears his footsteps following quietly). I do not think he wanted to confront or even approach Minerva, but to keep an eye on Harry and act if it seemed necessary. To tell him about the soul bit, or warn him about Voldemort (he did not have reason to believe that Harry or Minerva was already aware of Voldemort's imminent approach), or interfere with the Carrows (he apparently does not know what has happened to them, which leaves the possibility they are at large and a danger to Harry).

She forced the confrontation on him and not vice versa. Nor did he immediately provoke her response by bringing up Harry off the top. He made four attempts to move the subject to Harry obliquely, to get Minerva to talk about what had happened in the castle and what she was up to, before he gave up on that approach as a lost cause and tried to broach his chief concern more directly. He was the opposite of threatening in his approach to her - he could, after all, have attacked her from behind if he had evil intentions towards her and her activities of that night.

I am not at all convinced that there were words he could have said that would make any difference. Minerva was determined by this point that the school would make a stand, and that something would need to be done about Severus Snape, whom she quite reasonably at that point considered a murderer, a traitor, and a true Death Eater. (See 2 pages previous to the text ignisia quoted).

Here's the text...



They had descended two more floors when another set of quiet footsteps joined theirs. Harry, whose scar was still prickling, heard them first. He felt in the pouch around his neck for the
Marauder’s Map, but before he could take it out, McGonagall too seemed to become aware of their company. She halted, raised her wand ready to duel, and said, “Who’s there?”
“It is I,” said a low voice.
From behind a suit of armor stepped Severus Snape.
Hatred boiled up in Harry at the sight of him. He had forgotten the details of Snape’s appearance in the magnitude of his crimes, forgotten how his greasy black hair hung in curtains around his thin face, how his black eyes had a dead, cold look. He was not wearing nightclothes, but was dressed in his usual black cloak, and he too was holding his wand ready for a fight.
“Where are the Carrows?” he asked quietly.
“Wherever you told them to be, I expect, Severus,” said Professor McGonagall.
Snape stepped nearer, and his eyes flitted over Professor McGonagall into the air around her, as if he knew that Harry was there. Harry held his wand up too, ready to attack.
“I was under the impression,” said Snape, “that Alecto had apprehended an intruder.”
“Really?” said Professor McGonagall. “And what gave you that impression?”
Snape mad a slight flexing movement of his left arm, where the Dark Mark was branded into his skin.
“Oh, but naturally,” said Professor McGonagall. “You Death Eaters have your own private means of communication, I forgot.”
Snape pretended not to have heard her. His eyes were still probing the air all about her, and he was moving gradually closer, with an air of hardly noticing what he was doing.
“I did not know that it was your night to patrol the corridors Minerva.”
“You have some objection?”
“I wonder what could have brought you out of your bed at this late hour?”
“I thought I heard a disturbance,” said Professor McGonagall.
“Really? But all seems calm.”
Snape looked into her eyes.
“Have you seen Harry Potter, Minerva? Because if you have. I must insist —”
Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed.




Whether Snape new or not that Nagini is already being magically protected is not the question here IMO.
The DE's in Hogwarts were given the head's up that Harry might enter the castle and he might be going to the Ravenclaw tower.
Snape knew that Harry has some kind of mission, and if Harry chose to enter Hogwarts, and Voldemort knows it then it is very likely that his mission was discovered by the Dark Lord. That makes sense. Why else would he take such a chance, to enter a school in which he is most likely to be discovered.
Now, if all this holds true then upon knowing that Harry did enter the castle and Voldemort is on his way to the castle it only makes sense to try to find Harry because if a battle of some sort breaks out he might not be able to convey the message. I believe Snape thought that it better be a bit sooner than not at all because if Harry's presence stirs some kind of fight (as it did, and which isn't so hard to foresee either) it isn't very likely that the two of them can have a chat...
When Snape is called to the Shack he is only reinforced in his belief that it is time to pass on the message upon seeing Nagini in his enchanted cage.

Well Snape knew that Harry was in Hogwarts, so I think he would want to make sure that Harry was all right and that the Carrows had not done anything to him. I also think that he knew Harry was with Minerva, which probably made him feel much better. I imagine him thinking "Ah, Minerva has dealt with the Carrows and is now assisting Potter. Better check what they're up to."
If this is the case, I still maintain Severus acted very foolishly. "Checking what they're up to" could only lead to a battle between himself and McGonagall, and would, in no way, help the cause (other than to assure himself that Harry was safe). If Snape really wanted to check on Harry's safety, he should have gone to Amycus and Alecto, in my opinion. If Harry was in their control, Snape could have done something about it; if not, Snape would know that Harry was relatively safe at the moment. This is why I think Snape made a blunder by following Minerva (and revealing himself): I see no good in setting McGonagall and Harry against him once again, when he could have found out Harry's safety by seeing the Carrows.
I think Snape thought at this point that perhaps Harry had done what he came to do and now needed to get out of Hogwarts, so perhaps he was making sure they got away safely. Either way I think he was basically trying to smooth the way for Harry without appearing suspicious.
Again, if this is the case, I think this is one of the few instances where Severus "played his part" poorly, since I think a better alternative (the Carrows) existed.

He might have seen himself as facing a choice between telling Harry at the right time, or not telling him at all.
I agree. Snape may have thought he would not get another chance to tell Harry, so he was willing to be a little premature in telling Harry. However, if this was truly his resolve, Snape would have been prepared to confess his true allegiances, in my opinion, since he would have completed his "final" task as double agent. I think doing this (handing Minerva his wand, telling her everything, etc.) would have been much more productive than the subtle hints he used at trying to find Harry (since that only sparked and fueled Minerva's suspicions even more, in my opinion).
She forced the confrontation on him and not vice versa. Nor did he immediately provoke her response by bringing up Harry off the top. He made four attempts to move the subject to Harry obliquely, to get Minerva to talk about what had happened in the castle and what she was up to, before he gave up on that approach as a lost cause and tried to broach his chief concern more directly. He was the opposite of threatening in his approach to her - he could, after all, have attacked her from behind if he had evil intentions towards her and her activities of that night.
I agree that Snape was trying to be as subtle as he could be. However, he was, in my opinion, acting very foolishly if he believed McGonagall would tolerate any inquiries about Harry Potter. McGonagall (and the rest of the good side, save Dumbledore) believed Snape had killed Dumbledore, allowed torturing of students, etc. in the name of the Dark Lord. Therefore, Snape even mentioning Harry's name would clearly cause McGonagall to "force the confrontation on" Snape, but it was Snape's poor decisions, in this scenario, that compelled Minerva to "force the confrontation," in my opinion.
I am not at all convinced that there were words he could have said that would make any difference. Minerva was determined by this point that the school would make a stand, and that something would need to be done about Severus Snape, whom she quite reasonably at that point considered a murderer, a traitor, and a true Death Eater. (See 2 pages previous to the text ignisia quoted).
I agree about Minerva's resolve, but I do think she would have been slightly merciful if Snape had "waved the white flag," if you will. As eliza101 said, McGonagall was not a Death Eater who would kill Snape on the spot, if Snape had shown signs of surrender. Yes, she may have incapacitated Snape in a way, but I think Snape would have been kept sequestered (safe from Voldemort, at least, for a while), and Harry could eventually talk to him.

I think the way Snape divulged the information in the book worked well, but, from an intelligence perspective, I think Snape acted foolishly in his conversation with Minerva.
Snape handing over his wand would have made it impossible for him to reach Harry when the time was right. Minerva would immobilize Snape in any event, and Snape was instructed not to share the info he was to give to Harry with anyone but Harry.
I disagree. Yes, McGonagall would have immobilized Snape in some form, but I think Harry would want to talk to Snape (and Minerva would not have objected). If Snape easily gained Harry's trust through memories, I am sure that trust could have been established with both a discussion between the two and the memories. Snape could easily bring up many topics: Lily, Dumbledore, the Silver Doe, Gryffindor's sword, etc. to at least make Harry listen to him, in my opinion. Therefore, I do think Severus relinquishing his wand, in an attempt to gain trust, was an option.
I believe Snape thought that it better be a bit sooner than not at all because if Harry's presence stirs some kind of fight (as it did, and which isn't so hard to foresee either) it isn't very likely that the two of them can have a chat...
When Snape is called to the Shack he is only reinforced in his belief that it is time to pass on the message upon seeing Nagini in his enchanted cage.
I agree that this is a possibility, as I have said earlier, but it still makes me doubt Severus's actions in this scene. If he did know a final battle between Harry and Voldemort was drawing near, I think Snape could have revealed his true allegiances and reasons for his actions, since he would no longer need to spy on Voldemort. Instead, he opted for subtle, prying questions that made Minerva instantly suspicious.

However, I still agree with those that say Snape was likely trying to check on Harry's safety (and get to the Carrows before they did anything to Harry). But why would he confront McGonagall (whom he should know would be threatened by his presence) instead of the Carrows (whom he could easily ask questions of or, if necessary, overpower [which I do not think would be necessary, since Snape had higher standing with Voldemort])?

I think it is the conversation with McGonagal that bothers me. There he is asking her questions about Haqrry. Snape is a very smart man, It wouldn't occur to him that she might be on guard about such inquiries and would she answer any such inquiries under the circumstances. That is the parts that bothers me.

If Snape really wanted to check on Harry's safety, he should have gone to Amycus and Alecto, in my opinion. If Harry was in their control, Snape could have done something about it; if not, Snape would know that Harry was relatively safe at the moment. This is why I think Snape made a blunder by following Minerva (and revealing himself): I see no good in setting McGonagall and Harry against him once again, when he could have found out Harry's safety by seeing the Carrows.

If the Carrows wanted to be found. I very much doubt that once they had Harry that they would want to hand him over to Severus. I think they would have wanted the glory of handing him directly to Voldemort all to themselves, and would have tried their best to avoid Snape. I think Snape was aware of that too, and may have been looking for them when he saw Minerva. In fact the first question he asks her is, "Where are the Carrows?"

If the Carrows wanted to be found. I very much doubt that once they had Harry that they would want to hand him over to Severus. I think they would have wanted the glory of handing him directly to Voldemort all to themselves, and would have tried their best to avoid Snape. I think Snape was aware of that too, and may have been looking for them when he saw Minerva. In fact the first question he asks her is, "Where are the Carrows?"
If Snape's primary goal was to find the Carrows, I do not see why he would follow Minerva. He knew Alecto was stationed in Ravenclaw Tower, and that would be the logical place to begin his search - rather than asking Minerva (who thinks Snape is a murderous traitor) where the twins are.

I agree that the Carrows, if they had Harry, would try to keep Snape from "interfering." However, if Snape was simply trying to discover where Harry was (in the Carrows' control or safe with Minerva), I still think he would have been better to at least search for the Carrows first (and if they did have Harry, exert his dominance over the twins). I think it is fairly clear that Snape did not check Ravenclaw Tower for them, since it would be very obvious where the Carrows were, and instead chose to follow McGonagall instead. To me, that was a poor decision by Snape and one that even further distanced himself from McGonagall, Harry, and the others.

If Snape's primary goal was to find the Carrows, I do not see why he would follow Minerva. He knew Alecto was stationed in Ravenclaw Tower, and that would be the logical place to begin his search - rather than asking Minerva (who thinks Snape is a murderous traitor) where the twins are.

I agree that the Carrows, if they had Harry, would try to keep Snape from "interfering." However, if Snape was simply trying to discover where Harry was (in the Carrows' control or safe with Minerva), I still think he would have been better to at least search for the Carrows first (and if they did have Harry, exert his dominance over the twins). I think it is fairly clear that Snape did not check Ravenclaw Tower for them, since it would be very obvious where the Carrows were, and instead chose to follow McGonagall instead. To me, that was a poor decision by Snape and one that even further distanced himself from McGonagall, Harry, and the others.

I have to agree somewhat with Sleepy's point here. It's not about Severus being a good guy or not. It has to do with the writing. To me it just does not ring true of Snape's intelligence. I find it's like the ring of crystal against broken glass. Something is off for me. The story from the capture of the trio to the escape after the bank job runs like a freight train, but here it's like the brakes are put on somewhat.

If this is the case, I still maintain Severus acted very foolishly. "Checking what they're up to" could only lead to a battle between himself and McGonagall, and would, in no way, help the cause (other than to assure himself that Harry was safe). If Snape really wanted to check on Harry's safety, he should have gone to Amycus and Alecto, in my opinion. If Harry was in their control, Snape could have done something about it; if not, Snape would know that Harry was relatively safe at the moment. This is why I think Snape made a blunder by following Minerva (and revealing himself): I see no good in setting McGonagall and Harry against him once again, when he could have found out Harry's safety by seeing the Carrows.Well I suspect that Snape knew that the Carrows had been dealt with. He is following Minerva and Harry, he does not meet them. This to me implies that he is coming form the same direction as them but is behind them. To me it seems very likely that this is the sort of thing Snape has been doing all year - checking that the students are safe. Who knows how many times he has confunded the Carrows or altered their memories in order to protect students? Snape IMO had no intention of revealing himself, but the mistake he makes is that he is heard. It is clear to me that throughout his conversation with Minerva he is pre-occupied with finding Harry. I agree with those who believe that Severus was seizing the opportunity to pass on the information to Harry before Voldemort arrived. This confrontation only turns into a duel because Harry is there, and everyone has seen that as their cue to make a stand against Voldemort.

The very fact that he as headmaster is sneaking around should perhaps have struck Minerva as odd. I mean he is in charge so why does he need to sneak around? In retrospect we know that it is because he is actually working against Voldemort not for him.

Well I suspect that Snape knew that the Carrows had been dealt with. He is following Minerva and Harry, he does not meet them. This to me implies that he is coming form the same direction as them but is behind them. To me it seems very likely that this is the sort of thing Snape has been doing all year - checking that the students are safe. Who knows how many times he has confunded the Carrows or altered their memories in order to protect students? Snape IMO had no intention of revealing himself, but the mistake he makes is that he is heard. It is clear to me that throughout his conversation with Minerva he is pre-occupied with finding Harry. I agree with those who believe that Severus was seizing the opportunity to pass on the information to Harry before Voldemort arrived. This confrontation only turns into a duel because Harry is there, and everyone has seen that as their cue to make a stand against Voldemort.

The very fact that he as headmaster is sneaking around should perhaps have struck Minerva as odd. I mean he is in charge so why does he need to sneak around? In retrospect we know that it is because he is actually working against Voldemort not for him.

I get what you are saying Cathy, but It's all your ideas. You could be right on the ball, but IMO none of your theories can really be extrapolated from the actual text. It could well be what Jo intended to come across but I didn't get any of that from the text and I have the feeling that I'm not really alone in that. I love all of DH, even the great British Camping Trip, but that particular passage just leaves me scratching my head. Thank Jo the rest of the book is my cup of tea, or coffee. I don't like tea.

I get what you are saying Cathy, but It's all your ideas. You could be right on the ball, but IMO none of your theories can really be extrapolated from the actual text. It could well be what Jo intended to come across but I didn't get any of that from the text and I have the feeling that I'm not really alone in that. I love all of DH, even the great British Camping Trip, but that particular passage just leaves me scratching my head. Thank Jo the rest of the book is my cup of tea, or coffee. I don't like tea.

I think there is indirect evidence that Cathy is right. If Snape wanted to stop any fight or outbreak of battle he should've gone about it in a different manner. Look for the Carrows, and not to talk to McGonagall, but to immobilize her and try to get a hold on the situation. I think it was quite obvious to him that McGonagall is an underground leader, in other words, that the other professors will listen to her, and if she says 'fight' they will fight. And I don't thing Snape wanted to disrupt the natural course of events, he only wanted to add to it, by finding Harry.

During the conversation Snape does ask, first indirectly, and then explicitly about Harry, so it is quite obvious that he is looking for him, he knows that Harry is in the castle.
Now, on the idea that why doesn't he look for the Carrows first: well, McGonagall is out of bed, and marching through a corridor sending no less than three patronuses away with messages. I think that it was obvious for Snape that something is going on. KNowing the intellectual capacity of the Carrows he must know that if there is a slight chance they met McGonagall they're out of circulation. I think he figured it would waste precious time to try to find the twins (they might be obliviated, they might be somewhere's different) when he could simply follow McGonagall, and then he'll be able to observe the core of happenings.

I don't think Snape ever wanted to fight with Minerva, and he certainly didn't want to turn her over as a traitor to the Carrows - which he could have done at any time all year because he knew she was in the Order!

I keep thinking of the ending of OotP, after Minerva has been attacked by Aurors and Umbridge and sent to St. Mungo's. Snape seems genuinely glad to her return to Hogwarts, which makes it all the more heartbreaking that she was so quick to write him off as a traitor.

"What are you doing, Potter?" said Snape coldly as ever, as he strode over to the four of them.

"I’m trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir," said Harry fiercely.

Snape stared at him.

"Put that wand away at once," he said curtly. "Ten points from Gryff –"

Snape looked toward the giant hourglasses on the walls and gave a sneering smile.

"Ah. I see there are no longer any points left in the Gryffindor hourglass to take away. In that case, Potter, we will simply have to –"

"Add some more?"

Professor McGonagall had just stumped up the stone steps into the castle. She was carrying a tartan carpetbag in one hand and leaning heavily on a walking stick with her other, but otherwise looked quite well.

"Professor McGonagall!" said Snape, striding forward. "Out of St. Mungo’s, I see?’

"Yes, Professor Snape," said Professor McGonagall, shrugging off her traveling cloak…
snip

"Right then," said Professor McGonagall, looking up at the hourglasses on the wall, "well, I think Potter and his friends ought to have fifty points apiece for alerting the world to the return of You-Know-Who! What say you, Professor Snape?’
pg 852

"What?" snapped Snape, though Harry knew he had heard perfectly well. "Oh – well – I suppose…"

snip

"Now, you wanted to take ten from Mr. Potter, I think, Professor Snape – so there we are…"
pg 853

I think this explains the 'not looking for Carrows' bit:

“Where are the Carrows?” he asked quietly.
“Wherever you told them to be, I expect, Severus,” said Professor McGonagall.
Snape stepped nearer, and his eyes flitted over Professor McGonagall into the air around her, as if he knew that Harry was there. Harry held his wand up too, ready to attack.
“I was under the impression,” said Snape, “that Alecto had apprehended an intruder.”
“Really?” said Professor McGonagall. “And what gave you that impression?”
Snape mad a slight flexing movement of his left arm, where the Dark Mark was branded into his skin.
“Oh, but naturally,” said Professor McGonagall. “You Death Eaters have your own private means of communication, I forgot.”
Snape pretended not to have heard her.

a) Snape is very specific about the reason he was contacted by Alecto.
b) The DE 'private means of communication' works both ways.

I agree he must have known, or at least suspected, Harry was with McGonagall... and using the cloak. I also agree that his stance was counter-productive if his original intention was to find Minerva and interrogate her (which I don't believe it was, as it was McGonagall confronting him and not the other way around).

Once he was heard, he had no choice but to play his part... He couldn't be sure it was safe to drop his guise yet.

JMO, of course.

Once he was heard, he had no choice but to play his part... He couldn't be sure it was safe to drop his guise yet.

Exactly - he was playing a part, and keeping up appearances, just as he does with McGonagall in the scene I quoted, which is almost the reverse. Snape is glad to see McGonagall in OotP, but has to pretend to be affronted when she wants to give points to the Gryffindors. Harry can tell he is acting when he says "What?" about adding the points. But it's all a show for the Slytherin boys who are standing there.

Both those scenes are great examples of Snape playing his role and not expressing his true feelings. I think in the scene from DH, Snape tries to stay cool but inside he desperately needs to find Harry and give him the memories. He's not trying to find the Carrows, but wants to find Harry.

He's not trying to find the Carrows, but wants to find Harry.
I'm glad you said that SIP - the more I have looked at this scene (and I admit that I haven't given it much thought before) the more I have suspected that he wasn't looking for the Carrows at all. At first I just thought that he went to find the Carrows (to get Harry) but seeing McGonagall suspected that Harry was with her and followed her. It is really Harry that Snape wants to find not the Carrows. And IMO in this scene he knows that Harry is not with the Carrows. However as you both said SIP and Daggs he must keep up appearances, which is why I think he asks about the Carrows; they are the only other Death Eaters in the castle. To be honest I don't think there was any way that Minerva was going to hand Harry over to him, so I think Severus is trying to work out exactly how he can get Harry alone. It is interesting that he doesn't attack McGonagall, because that would have been 'in character' for him as a Death Eater and would have left him alone with Harry. However it would not have been particularly conducive to encouraging Harry to trust him. I also like to think that he just didn't want to attack her because he liked and respected her. So I think maybe Severus is considering his options here and finds that he doesn't really have any.

As has been mentioned - Snape does not instigate the conversation. Minerva does when she hears him. Snape is following them.

There is no reason at all for Snape to be following 'just' Minerva at that moment in time. The Carrows have sent out notice to Voldy that they have Harry. But as has also been mentioned Snape is coming from the same direction Minerva had been coming from. IF he was at all worried that the Carrows had Harry, then he would NOT be following Minerva.

Instead, he is doing his usual attempt at protecting Harry. I don't think I even necessarily believe he is trying to get Harry alone to talk to him here. I think he's just wanting to get Harry away to somewhere safe before Voldy arrives. So, he's following Minerva because he's very sure she has Harry and he's ready to protect them from anyone coming up from behind (e.g. the Carrows). Just because Voldy is on his way doesn't mean it's time for Harry to meet him. Voldy is not yet protecting Naigini.

When he is 'found out' by Minerva, he cannot do anything BUT seem to be asking about Harry. After all, IF Harry has escaped the Carrows and the Carrows have let it be known to Snape (thru the Mark) then his job as a DE is to find Harry. And Minerva knows full well that Harry HAS escaped them and that they have a way to communicate with Snape. Therefore, Snape's entire conversation is there to keep his 'cover' in front of Minerva now that she has discovered him. Just as he has had to do all year.

So, to wrap up - my opinion is that he would never have spoken to Minerva at all if she had not noticed someone following. He's there making sure Minerva gets Harry to someplace safe. That's his 'job', protect Harry for as long as possible - until Voldy begins protecting Naigini. However, once discovered by Minerva, he must keep his cover.

He's not trying to find the Carrows, but wants to find Harry.

I think so too. I think he wanted to meet Harry and tell him everything; maybe take him to the Headmaster's office and ask Dumbledore to speak to him. But that never happened, because Snape preferred to leave than fighting McGonagall and Flitwick and hurting them.

I think so too. I think he wanted to meet Harry and tell him everything; maybe take him to the Headmaster's office and ask Dumbledore to speak to him. But that never happened, because Snape preferred to leave than fighting McGonagall and Flitwick and hurting them.

I'll have to agree with hwyla here. I think Snape was trying to make sure the Carrows wouldn't hand Harry to Voldemort and to keep him safe. I don't think he was trying to get Harry alone and tell him anything. For more than one reason: a) Snape knew Harry wouldn't trust him at all. b) That was not Dumbledore's plan. His plan was to tell Harry the truth when Voldemort keeps Nagini close to him. And Snape doesn't see this untill later when the Battle had started. At that point, we saw Snape actually confronting Voldemort and asking directly to go and get Harry. If his purpose at the castle was giving Harry information, I think he would've been more direct than he had been, imo.
So I think that he was trying to make sure Harry is safe and not prisoned by the Carrows.

So I think that he was trying to make sure Harry is safe and not prisoned by the Carrows.

The reason the scene doesn't make sense to me is that if Snape was unable to locate Carrow and wanted to make sure Harry was safe - why did he antagonize McGonagall? Once he sees she is being evasive, he could have just remarked that there didn't seem to be any disturbance and that they could retire, then slink back into the shadows and follow her. Instead, he antagonized her, flexing his dark mark and directly asking about Harry; he couldn't have believed that would go well, imo. It was like he wanted to provoke her, but I didn't see a point in his doing so. I don't think there was an 'in story' reason for his being there; I think his appearance was just a plot device at that point to remind readers of his deeds which Harry recalled on page - in light of what was to come, and to allow McGonagall to do battle finally in the series.

The reason the scene doesn't make sense to me is that if Snape was unable to locate Carrow and wanted to make sure Harry was safe - why did he antagonize McGonagall? Once he sees she is being evasive, he could have just remarked that there didn't seem to be any disturbance and that they could retire, then slink back into the shadows and follow her. Instead, he antagonized her, flexing his dark mark and directly asking about Harry; he couldn't have believed that would go well, imo. It was like he wanted to provoke her, but I didn't see a point in his doing so. I don't think there was an 'in story' reason for his being there; I think his appearance was just a plot device at that point to remind readers of his deeds which Harry recalled on page - in light of what was to come, and to allow McGonagall to do battle finally in the series.

Perhaps, in his own urgency, he miscalculated his encounter with McGonagall, touching a nerve with his mention of Harry. I think he might have felt that he needed to get straight to the point, that with Voldemort on the move, he had to tell Harry everything as soon as possible.

"Send Harry to Voldemort immediately to be killed" in order to "put an end to Potter family line"? :err:

My copy of DH reads:

“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape. He stood up. “You have used me.”
“Meaning?”
“I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter’s son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter – ”
“But this is touching, Severus,” said Dumbledore seriously. “Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?”

Would you be so kind to share with me which edition you've been reading? :huh:

I believe that Snape always wanted Harry to succeed and not be killed. He was shocked at DD's plan and did not want to be part of it.

"Send Harry to Voldemort immediately to be killed" in order to "put an end to Potter family line"? :err:

My copy of DH reads:
[...]
Would you be so kind to share with me which edition you've been reading? :huh:

I have a first edition of Deathly Hallows. My interpretation of the scene you quoted and Snape's responses during the scene, together with JKR's interview in which she said Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's love for another man (Bloomsbury Chat 2007), and Snape's willingness to give Harry the message from Dumbledore all formed my opinion.

The scene you quoted, I take Snape calmly saying 'so the boy must die' to be his response to the fact that Harry had to die (for a legitimate reason). I interpreted the response to be one of indifference. The actual wording you quoted from the scene I felt was Snape's reaction to his feelings about Dumbledore as well as Dumbledore's use of him over the years. And the final part of that scene, Snape's response to Dumbledore asking if he cared for Harry was to say "For him?" and issue the patronus - which I interpreted to mean 'no, not for Harry, but for Lily'.

So I feel that Snape saw Harry's legitimate need to die (the end to the Potter line) as the end to his suffering upon seeing him as a representation of Lily's love for James according to the interview and based on what I felt were Snape's expressions of dislike for Harry and his father throughout the series. And I felt that Snape proved his continued loathing in the scene above (which continued to Snape's death according to JKR in interview). Finally I interpreted his willingness to pass on the message (which I don't feel Dumbledore could find anyone else to do - jmo) to mean that he was willing to do so in order to serve his own purposes as well as that of Dumbledore's greater good. That is my interpretation and opinion, which no one else has to agree with - but which is how I see it.

In light of the way I view Snape's character in this regard, the scene with McGonagall would make sense in terms of Snape dismissing Dumbledore's plan and getting on with delivering the message to Harry as I feel Snape was motivated to deliver it for reasons beyond what Dumbledore wanted. Just my opinion.

But I don't understand why Snape would say that he wanted to save Lily's boy if he wanted to also kill him. That's a contradiction I can't quite understand. Why did it shock him so much? Shock implies an emotional reaction in the negative sense - he did not seem to want Harry to die at that moment.

Yes, Snape eventually accepted it, but Harry also accepted it when he saw that scene. Snape gave him that memory. Harry is the one who had to decide whether to follow through, and he also knew it might kill off the House of Potter, but it was still the only plan he had to get the horcrux out of his head.

If Snape had not given him the memory, then Voldemort would still be living inside Harry's head. Snape didn't like that too much in OotP:

"What is that room and that man doing inside your head?"

The scene you quoted, I take Snape calmly saying 'so the boy must die' to be his response to the fact that Harry had to die (for a legitimate reason). I interpreted the response to be one of indifference.

I see I should have quoted a longer excerpt. Allow me to rectify...

“So the boy…the boy must die?” asked Snape quite calmly.
“And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential.”
Another long silence. Then Snape said, “I thought…all those years…that we were protecting him for her. For Lily.”
“We have protected him because it has been essential to teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength,” said Dumbledore, his eyes still tight shut. “Meanwhile, the connection between them grows ever stronger, a parasitic growth. Sometimes I have thought he suspects it himself. If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort.”
Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.
“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?”
“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?”
“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape. He stood up. “You have used me.”

Surely you have taken all of the bolded lines into consideration whilst forming your opinion? :huh:

Snape was shocked (or horrified), he did not agree with DD plan to just simply let Harry die.

Snape wanted Harry to live, this is what he had been working towards. It was because of Lily that Snape turned away from Voldemort, other things may have contributed to it, but in the end he changed because of Lily. Snape did not like Harry (initially at least) but he still wanted to protect him.

Great posts hwyla and Bellatrix93 - I am inclined to agree with you now - that Severus was not trying to get Harry alone merely get him safely away before Voldemort arrives.

Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.
“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?”
“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?”
“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape. He stood up. “You have used me.”

What I find interesting about that quote is that we have two points of view: Harry's and Dumbledore's.

And they both believe Snape is shocked by the idea of Harry needing to die.

Harry goes further and sees Snape as "horrified."

Personally, I find Dumbledore's tone offensive in that passage. JMO. It makes me not like him as much as used to. :( Snape is correct that he was just being used. He feels tricked because he thought the whole point was to keep Harry alive, and then Dumbledore gets dismissive about it.

DD knew from the start of the books that Harry was destined to die, IMO, this is why he didn't want to like Harry too much and why he tried to protect him as much as possible. DD wanted Harry to enough what little of life that he could.

He knew what had to happen or at the very least suspected it.

“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?"

This is not indifference. Snape is appalled on Harry's behalf. IMO

But I don't understand why Snape would say that he wanted to save Lily's boy if he wanted to also kill him.

Well I don't recall Snape saying he wanted to save Lily's boy.

I didn't say Snape wanted to kill Harry. I said, when he found out Harry had to die for a legitimate reason, he was indifferent to that fact. He understood and agreed with the reason and I feel he disliked Harry, so it would be natural - in my opinion - for him to be indifferent, which is how I read his calmly spoken response, 'so the boy must die'.

Why did it shock him so much? Shock implies an emotional reaction in the negative sense - he did not seem to want Harry to die at that moment.

My interpretation was that Snape was shocked at Dumbledore because he'd always thought of him as a kind and compassionate man, who would never 'raise anyone for the slaughter'. So in other words, Snape would have been shocked if they had been discussing Dumbledore having done (and doing) this to Ron, Hermione, or anyone else. It was Dumbledore's behavior that shocked him.

I frankly felt Dumbledore's response was out of line. He turned the tables on Snape and was like 'what's the problem, haven't you watched tons of people die' - which to me insinuated that Snape couldn't care less about people dying left and right before his eyes - innocent or otherwise. Naturally, Snape would take offense to that statement, imo, seeing as he'd been placed in the position to have to do so by Dumbledore himself as a spy, imo. So he says, only those he couldn't save - but that had nothing to do with Harry, imo.

Yes, Snape eventually accepted it, but Harry also accepted it when he saw that scene. Snape gave him that memory. Harry is the one who had to decide whether to follow through, and he also knew it might kill off the House of Potter, but it was still the only plan he had to get the horcrux out of his head.

Well I agree that Snape understood that he was forwarding Dumbledore's plan by giving Harry the message. However, I also think he believed it would put an end to his suffering at having to look at Harry and see a representation of Lily's love for another man, which I feel sent his jealousy and vindictiveness flaring and perpetuated his loathing for Harry and his dad, jmo. So I think Snape had personal reasons for wanting the plan to work and Harry chosing to die at Voldemort's hands, beyond merely what Dumbledore wanted (the greater good). That is my opinion.

Well I don't recall Snape saying he wanted to save Lily's boy.
Daggerstone has posted at least two quotes that say that:

“I thought…all those years…that we were protecting him for her."

Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter’s son safe.

Safe = Save = same root word in Latin "salvus" as in "salvation"

Keeping Harry safe is the same idea as saving him, and in several books, Snape does both.

I didn't say Snape wanted to kill Harry. I said, when he found out Harry had to die for a legitimate reason, he was indifferent to that fact. He understood and agreed with the reason and I feel he disliked Harry, so it would be natural - in my opinion - for him to be indifferent, which is how I read his calmly spoken response, 'so the boy must die'.

Snape pulled himself together because to me that's what he always does. But his words and the fact that he stands up all of sudden means that his thoughts and emotions are unsettled at that moment. He is shocked and angry, and that's the opposite of indifference, jmo.

If (and I bold the if for a reason) it were true that Snape used his newfound information on Harry having to die to his own personal advantage, I can see where Snape's words can be used against him if the reader chose them to do so based on their own interpretation. However, I argue that that interpretation goes against Snape's redemptive path in the story and paints him to be more on the "bad" side. Because it does not matter whether or not we agree or disagree if Snape's character deserves redemption, it was still communicated in the books through Harry, the naming of Albus Severus, and JKR from her interviews. I've seen no evidence of JKR wanting to give a character "peace" if they truely did not deserve it. But if evil Snape is what the reader wants and what they choose to see, than that's their problem.

I didn't say Snape wanted to kill Harry. I said, when he found out Harry had to die for a legitimate reason, he was indifferent to that fact...

My interpretation was that Snape was shocked at Dumbledore because he'd always thought of him as a kind and compassionate man, who would never 'raise anyone for the slaughter'. So in other words, Snape would have been shocked if they had been discussing Dumbledore having done (and doing) this to Ron, Hermione, or anyone else. It was Dumbledore's behavior that shocked him.

So, let me get this straight, because I am not quite certain I understand the gist here...

It is your opinion that Snape's indifference (Jo actually uses 'calmly', which I am almost certain is not synonymous with 'indifferently' but with 'composedly', though you should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) in that quote was due to Potter being 'raised for slaughter', whereas he was horrified at the possibility of Dumbledore doing the same to anyone?

Doesn't that strike you as a bit... mutually exclusive? :huh:

In all the dialogue lines preceding and following the action/posture descriptions of Snape in that quote he refers to Harry specifically. Unless you're of opinion that 'the boy' refers to Ron, Hermione, or someone else?

Well I don't recall Snape saying he wanted to save Lily's boy.

I didn't say Snape wanted to kill Harry. I said, when he found out Harry had to die for a legitimate reason, he was indifferent to that fact. He understood and agreed with the reason and I feel he disliked Harry, so it would be natural - in my opinion - for him to be indifferent, which is how I read his calmly spoken response, 'so the boy must die'.



I think that Snape saw the logic in what Dumbledore was saying, but was initially torn by it. Dumbledore is essentially telling him that all along, he has been carrying out Dumbledore's great plan while thinking he was absolving his past errors. Dumbledore is asking him to move beyond Lily and sacrifice his feelings for the good of the entire magical world. He indeed believed that he was saving Harry's life on behalf of Lily, when it now is revealed he was preparing Harry for death on behalf of the entire world.

I agree that his anguish was not at the fact that Harry was going to die, but instead that the realization that he was never repaying his debts to Lily, but simply working for Dumbledore.

My interpretation was that Snape was shocked at Dumbledore because he'd always thought of him as a kind and compassionate man, who would never 'raise anyone for the slaughter'. So in other words, Snape would have been shocked if they had been discussing Dumbledore having done (and doing) this to Ron, Hermione, or anyone else. It was Dumbledore's behavior that shocked him.

I agree that this is another factor. Snape was mad at Dumbledore for the same reason anyone would be if they found out that their boss was plotting the murder of a teenager.

I frankly felt Dumbledore's response was out of line. He turned the tables on Snape and was like 'what's the problem, haven't you watched tons of people die' - which to me insinuated that Snape couldn't care less about people dying left and right before his eyes - innocent or otherwise. Naturally, Snape would take offense to that statement, imo, seeing as he'd been placed in the position to have to do so by Dumbledore himself as a spy, imo. So he says, only those he couldn't save - but that had nothing to do with Harry, imo.
Dumbledore has always been very cold towards Snape, and indeed all those who practiced the Dark Arts. Snape's response is natural of a man trying to convince himself that he is a good man after all.

So, let me get this straight, because I am not quite certain I understand the gist here...

It is your opinion that Snape's indifference (Jo actually uses 'calmly', which I am almost certain is not synonymous with 'indifferently' but with 'composedly', though you should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) in that quote was due to Potter being 'raised for slaughter', whereas he was horrified at the possibility of Dumbledore doing the same to anyone?

Doesn't that strike you as a bit... mutually exclusive? :huh:

In all the dialogue lines preceding and following the action/posture descriptions of Snape in that quote he refers to Harry specifically. Unless you're of opinion that 'the boy' refers to Ron, Hermione, or someone else?

To me, he calmly accepts that Harry must die, but is horrified at Dumbledore's indifference, and the way that Dumbledore has been planning this all along. I think that it would be different for Snape if they had both reached the conclusion at the same time that Harry need die, but when Snape sees that Dumbledore knew it all along and had purposefully left that out of Snape's briefing, he is truly horrified at Dumbledore's actions.

I said, when he found out Harry had to die for a legitimate reason, he was indifferent to that fact. He understood and agreed with the reason and I feel he disliked Harry, so it would be natural - in my opinion - for him to be indifferent, which is how I read his calmly spoken response, 'so the boy must die'.



To me, he calmly accepts that Harry must die, but is horrified at Dumbledore's indifference(...)

Forgive me, but this statement is an oxymoron. How can on be horrified at someone's indifference towards an idea, if they are indifferent about it themselves? It's not logical.

When Snape says, "you have used me" he continues on to talk about his own actions ("I have lied... " etc)- he is not speaking of Dumbledore's attitude, he is talking about his own role in The Plan and how he has been mis-lead about his purpose. That purpose, for Snape, was to protect Lily's son- which Snape is in no way indifferent about.

Furthermore, interpreting the term "calmly" to show indifference ignores several examples in the texts where Snape speaks "calmly" while speaking on a very heated subject. It is possible for people- especially those who spend their life denying emotions and covering the heart with a iron plate - to speak "calmly" as a way to deny the emotional impact of the moment. That is Snape's canon modus operandi.

I think that it would be different for Snape if they had both reached the conclusion at the same time that Harry need die, but when Snape sees that Dumbledore knew it all along and had purposefully left that out of Snape's briefing, he is truly horrified at Dumbledore's actions.

I am sorry, but we will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing in the canon to suggest that Snape was horrified at Dumbledore's statement simply because Albus knew about the need for Harry's death before Severus himself did. :no:

Snape was shocked (or horrified), he did not agree with DD plan to just simply let Harry die.

Snape wanted Harry to live, this is what he had been working towards. It was because of Lily that Snape turned away from Voldemort, other things may have contributed to it, but in the end he changed because of Lily. Snape did not like Harry (initially at least) but he still wanted to protect him.

That's what I think. :cool: Welcome, by the way. :wave:

If (and I bold the if for a reason) it were true that Snape used his newfound information on Harry having to die to his own personal advantage, I can see where Snape's words can be used against him if the reader chose them to do so based on their own interpretation. However, I argue that that interpretation goes against Snape's redemptive path in the story and paints him to be more on the "bad" side. Because it does not matter whether or not we agree or disagree if Snape's character deserves redemption, it was still communicated in the books through Harry, the naming of Albus Severus, and JKR from her interviews. I've seen no evidence of JKR wanting to give a character "peace" if they truely did not deserve it. But if evil Snape is what the reader wants and what they choose to see, than that's their problem.

Word. :tu: All of it. :agree:

Although Severus treats Harry with undue harshness at times (IMO), I see no evidence personally from canon that he took any pleasure in the notion of the boy's death, or even in the prospect of the House of Potter ending.

Wow, I've been absent from the thread a bit. Where did we hit this idea that Snape somehow wanted Harry dead? He protected Harry of his own free will for 7 years and as evidenced by the quotes numerous people have supplied, was quite unwilling to carry out Dumbledore's plan. Even when he gives Harry the information, he leaves it an open decision for Harry to make by simply reporting what he was told by Albus.

If (and I bold the if for a reason) it were true that Snape used his newfound information on Harry having to die to his own personal advantage, I can see where Snape's words can be used against him if the reader chose them to do so based on their own interpretation. However, I argue that that interpretation goes against Snape's redemptive path in the story and paints him to be more on the "bad" side. Because it does not matter whether or not we agree or disagree if Snape's character deserves redemption, it was still communicated in the books through Harry, the naming of Albus Severus, and JKR from her interviews. I've seen no evidence of JKR wanting to give a character "peace" if they truely did not deserve it. But if evil Snape is what the reader wants and what they choose to see, than that's their problem.

:tu:, :tu:, and :tu:.
There are many ways to see Snape's character, but within the context of the series itself, his redemption is explicit and serves to tie up many of the series' key ideas.

Furthermore, interpreting the term "calmly" to show indifference ignores several examples in the texts where Snape speaks "calmly" while speaking on a very heated subject. It is possible for people- especially those who spend their life denying emotions and covering the heart with a iron plate - to speak "calmly" as a way to deny the emotional impact of the moment. That is Snape's canon modus operandi.

Yes, exactly. :tu: :agree:

Look at him in the Shack with Voldemort when he knows he needs to get out of there and warn Harry. His face is described as a "death mask" and he tries to stay calm, but he obviously didn't want to die at that moment. He must have been anything but calm on the inside. No one is indifferent to their own death, in my opinion.

This particular song lyric really reminds me of Snape:
Heart, though it's hot and violent
My head is cool and quiet

Especially with his Occlumency experience.

Forgive me, but this statement is an oxymoron. How can on be horrified at someone's indifference towards an idea, if they are indifferent about it themselves? It's not logical.

Not really. If you knew someone who had to put their dog down after 18 years of love, you would understand, but if they showed complete indifference about it, would you not be shocked? I don't see how this contradicts itself...

I am sorry, but we will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing in the canon to suggest that Snape was horrified at Dumbledore's statement simply because Albus knew about the need for Harry's death before Severus himself did.

Well I admit that I am having trouble explaining this in writing. Essentially, when I read the passage, I see Snape reacting calmly to Dumbledore telling him that Harry must die, and I see him reacting harshly to Dumbledore telling him that it was his plan all along.


Furthermore, interpreting the term "calmly" to show indifference ignores several examples in the texts where Snape speaks "calmly" while speaking on a very heated subject. It is possible for people- especially those who spend their life denying emotions and covering the heart with a iron plate - to speak "calmly" as a way to deny the emotional impact of the moment. That is Snape's canon modus operandi.

Why, then, can he not contain his emotion after Dumbledore says how he had planned Harry's death all along. If Snape is a master of maintaining his composure, this blow must have really knocked him off of his feet. I completely agree that the calm expression is Snape's "thing," so the fact that Snape is made to look "horrified" by this should be a red flag that this really affected him.

Also, this may be off, as I am generalizing, but from memory it seems like every time Snape does his calm, composed thing, he is either in a position of power and relishing it, or he does the "lip curling" thing. Just to be sure, is there a quote where Snape is described as calm and is definitely seething on the inside?

This particular song lyric really reminds me of Snape:
Heart, though it's hot and violent
My head is cool and quiet

Especially with his Occlumency experience.

:agree: Yes, because in Occlumency he stresses trying to clear the mind of emotion. It's like a meditative state of some kind. Harry finally gets there after Dobby dies and the grief distances him from Voldemort, so that's a clue for the type of state that Snape is in. Of course Harry is not calm inside while he is digging Dobby's grave, but he gets into a cooler state of mind and sees things clearly.

I still think Snape is as good as most people make him out to be. He just had an obsession with Lily, and that to me is the only thing that made him help Harry.

Not really. If you knew someone who had to put their dog down after 18 years of love, you would understand, but if they showed complete indifference about it, would you not be shocked? I don't see how this contradicts itself...

I'm trying to figure out how putting down a dog is similar to Harry sacrificing himself... :huh:

For one thing, 18 years can be a good long life for a dog, while it's just the beginning of adulthood for Harry - that's the tragedy of an early death.

But I don't usually talk about people in terms of pets. That's just me. Harry was not Snape's pet dog, so the analogy doesn't quite work.

I think one reason Snape is so shocked is that Lily also died early. It seems to unfair to think that Harry also has to die too soon. JMO.

I'm trying to figure out how putting down a dog is similar to Harry sacrificing himself... :huh:

For one thing, 18 years can be a good long life for a dog, while it's just the beginning of adulthood for Harry - that's the tragedy of an early death.

But I don't usually talk about people in terms of pets. That's just me. Harry was not Snape's pet dog, so the analogy doesn't quite work.

Fair enough, about the dogs age, lets say 5 years.

My point of the analogy was simply to show that I was not contradicting myself by saying that Snape could be horrified by Dumbledore's indifference.

Harry was not Snape's pet dog, but I was more comparing him to Dumbledore's pet dog, which might be viewed as similar to how Dumbledore has been treating him.

I still think the analogy is apt for my purpose, but it is a relatively minor point.

Fair enough, about the dogs age, lets say 5 years.

My point of the analogy was simply to show that I was not contradicting myself by saying that Snape could be horrified by Dumbledore's indifference.

Harry was not Snape's pet dog, but I was more comparing him to Dumbledore's pet dog, which might be viewed as similar to how Dumbledore has been treating him.

I still think the analogy is apt for my purpose, but it is a relatively minor point.

Hmmm, I guess I'll just have to think about that. I agree that Dumbledore was being insensitive to Snape's feelings, but I don't think he was indifferent to Harry after spending so much time with him. And Snape got over his first reaction of shock and accepted the truth of Harry's situation, just as Harry did later when he saw that scene in the Pensieve.

I agree that his anguish was not at the fact that Harry was going to die, but instead that the realization that he was never repaying his debts to Lily, but simply working for Dumbledore.

I don't understand why you're making a distinction between the two. Of course Dumbledore thinks of Snape as his 'hired hand', but that doesn't mean that whilst being that hired hand Snape wasn't repaying his debt to Lily. IMO to deny that Snape repaid his debt to Lily by protecting Harry is to deny him his redemption.

eta: Don't know about the age of dogs, but an 18 yr old cat is the equivalent of a 92 yr. old human. (Cat Fancy magazine)

Hmmm, I guess I'll just have to think about that. I agree that Dumbledore was being insensitive to Snape's feelings, but I don't think he was indifferent to Harry after spending so much time with him. And Snape got over his first reaction of shock and accepted the truth of Harry's situation, just as Harry did later when he saw that scene in the Pensieve.

I think that in this we see Snape finally turn the corner of letting go of Lily and accepting that by doing so, he can fill an even greater role. I think he buys into Dumbledore's concept of greater good, and sees that it truly is a better purpose than trying to reconcile himself with Lily in his mind.

I don't understand why you're making a distinction between the two. Of course Dumbledore thinks of Snape as his 'hired hand', but that doesn't mean that whilst being that hired hand Snape wasn't repaying his debt to Lily. IMO to deny that Snape repaid his debt to Lily by protecting Harry is to deny him his redemption.

eta: Don't know about the age of dogs, but an 18 yr old cat is the equivalent of a 92 yr. old human. (Cat Fancy magazine)

Of all the things, I didn't think the age of a dog would become an issue here :lol:. I will try to be more careful in future.

Anyway, let me clarify my distinction. I believe that Snape truly believed that Dumbledore and he were working to the same goal the whole time. I believe that he thought that he was giving his life to the purpose of keeping Harry alive on Lily's behalf. So, I think that his anguish is in the realization that instead of giving his life to Lily, he had given it to Dumbledore's greater good. In time, he accepts that this is for the best. I hope that answers your question- at its most basic, I was distinguishing between Snape being upset by Harry having to die, and Snape being upset at having been misled.

I think that in this we see Snape finally turn the corner of letting go of Lily and accepting that by doing so, he can fill an even greater role. I think he buys into Dumbledore's concept of greater good, and sees that it truly is a better purpose than trying to reconcile himself with Lily in his mind.



Of all the things, I didn't think the age of a dog would become an issue here :lol:. I will try to be more careful in future.

Anyway, let me clarify my distinction. I believe that Snape truly believed that Dumbledore and he were working to the same goal the whole time. I believe that he thought that he was giving his life to the purpose of keeping Harry alive on Lily's behalf. So, I think that his anguish is in the realization that instead of giving his life to Lily, he had given it to Dumbledore's greater good. In time, he accepts that this is for the best. I hope that answers your question- at its most basic, I was distinguishing between Snape being upset by Harry having to die, and Snape being upset at having been misled.

I get it, I just don't agree.

I was distinguishing between Snape being upset by Harry having to die, and Snape being upset at having been misled.

In my opinion, he was upset by both things simultaneously. He's a complex character, and we've seen him in other disturbing situations with all sorts of overwhelming feelings - Spinner's End and on the Tower with Dumbledore for instance. I don't distinguish because I think he was upset by both Harry having to die and Dumbledore withholding shocking information from him.

There are times in the books when Harry's mind races trying to figure out confusing situations, and I think Snape is in a parallel situation there and he can't completely hide his emotional reaction to all of it. He's thrown by it.

I think that in this we see Snape finally turn the corner of letting go of Lily and accepting that by doing so, he can fill an even greater role. I think he buys into Dumbledore's concept of greater good, and sees that it truly is a better purpose than trying to reconcile himself with Lily in his mind.



Of all the things, I didn't think the age of a dog would become an issue here :lol:. I will try to be more careful in future.

Anyway, let me clarify my distinction. I believe that Snape truly believed that Dumbledore and he were working to the same goal the whole time. I believe that he thought that he was giving his life to the purpose of keeping Harry alive on Lily's behalf. So, I think that his anguish is in the realization that instead of giving his life to Lily, he had given it to Dumbledore's greater good. In time, he accepts that this is for the best. I hope that answers your question- at its most basic, I was distinguishing between Snape being upset by Harry having to die, and Snape being upset at having been misled.

I get your point Willfitz, and I think you analyze that passage very well. Snape's redemption took a long time and went through many stages after Harry arrived at Hogwarts. But to be redeemed it is rather neccessary to have first sinned in a pretty big way. I also liked your anology about the dog. When I had to put my old dog down, (Ben, big, black, and plain dumb) I held it together at the vet's but I still cried a bucket at home. I still miss him after 5 years.

In my opinion, he was upset by both things simultaneously. He's a complex character, and we've seen him in other disturbing situations with all sorts of overwhelming feelings - Spinner's End and on the Tower with Dumbledore for instance. I don't distinguish because I think he was upset by both Harry having to die and Dumbledore withholding shocking information from him.

There are times in the books when Harry's mind races trying to figure out confusing situations, and I think Snape is in a parallel situation there and he can't completely hide his emotional reaction to all of it. He's thrown by it.

I suppose that that is a fair point. I really never meant to suggest that Severus was indifferent to Harry's death. He certainly becomes defensive when Dumbledore tries to paint him as being indifferent. I think I may have used the term indifferent but I assure you I misspoke.

It is certainly a possibility that Snape had conflicting emotions in this scene, I would say it is a given. What I mean to suggest is that Snape's outward negative reaction is not to the fact that Harry needs to die. He is calm upon the release of this information. Dumbledore presents it to him in the best possible way, he lets Snape figure it out for himself and Snape is the one who actually says first that the boy must die. For this reason, I think that Snape, initially at least, accepts Harry's fate. After this, Dumbledore expands on it, saying that Voldemort himself must do it. Snape seems to remain fairly calm, but realizes that this is going against all he thought the two of them were working towards. Then Dumbledore reveals how he had raised Harry as if for slaughter, and suddenly, Snape is horrified.

So I have to say that it does seem like this is the thing that really, well, horrifies Snape. My point all along is that his true horror is toward this one passage by Dumbledore, not Harry's inevitable fate.

Also, someone raised the point that the word calmly should be discarded because Snape always appears calm (or something to that effect); however, looking back on that chapter, it is in stark contrast to what we are shown by Snape in the presence of Dumbledore. Just on the previous page, we have the following descriptions:

"...real anger flared in the thin face now...

...Snape looked angry, mutinous.

...Snape looked astonished."



Then, when he figures out about Harry's fate, he is described as calm, before again being described as animated as I said above. So I don't think that this adjective should be discounted by any account, and I believe it is there for a reason.

Then, when he figures out about Harry's fate, he is described as calm, before again being described as animated as I said above. So I don't think that this adjective should be discounted by any account, and I believe it is there for a reason.

Exactly. It is ONE moment of calmness (presumably, processing information... critical thinking requires curbing one's emotions) amidst the general turmoil. I don't see how it can outweigh the rest, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. :relax:

As for the dog reference... I'm shocked, to put it mildly. Since when do we keep our pet animals on equal regard with other human beings?! What's next? Comparing stray dogs to refugees? :huh:

I'll have to agree with hwyla here. I think Snape was trying to make sure the Carrows wouldn't hand Harry to Voldemort and to keep him safe. I don't think he was trying to get Harry alone and tell him anything. For more than one reason: a) Snape knew Harry wouldn't trust him at all. b) That was not Dumbledore's plan. His plan was to tell Harry the truth when Voldemort keeps Nagini close to him. And Snape doesn't see this until later when the Battle had started. At that point, we saw Snape actually confronting Voldemort and asking directly to go and get Harry. If his purpose at the castle was giving Harry information, I think he would've been more direct than he had been, imo.
So I think that he was trying to make sure Harry is safe and not prisoned by the Carrows.

I agree what you say is possible as well. I thought Snape would use this opportunity to take him up to Dumbledore and speak to him. While Harry would not trust Snape, he would trust Dumbledore and Snape knowing that he may not get an opportunity to meet with Harry later on, could have wanted to speak with Harry right then. And Snape could also have known at that time Nagini was in a cage. That is not impossible. I think Snape knew it at that time; that explains his sense of urgency when he talks to McGonagall.

If it was just about saving Harry and protecting him from the Carrows, Snape would have never asked McGonagall for Harry's whereabouts. He would have known she would protect him with her life. When Snape was talking to McGonagall, there were no DEs present and Snape need not have insisted for Harry, for he was safe if McGonagall was not worried. But Snape wanted Harry at that time and I feel it was to get him to his office and ask Dumbledore to speak to him, to tell him the truth of the last year IMO.

The scene you quoted, I take Snape calmly saying 'so the boy must die' to be his response to the fact that Harry had to die (for a legitimate reason). I interpreted the response to be one of indifference. The actual wording you quoted from the scene I felt was Snape's reaction to his feelings about Dumbledore as well as Dumbledore's use of him over the years.

I think Snape reacts slowly to any information that unnerves him, because he is trying to rapidly make sense of what he is hearing in his mind, while outwardly trying to remain calm.

I found a parallel of this scene in OOTP, when Harry in his Occlumency class tells Snape he knows what the Black Door is. Snape reacts similarly to this scene in the TPT. There Harry notes Snape is unnerved; here Harry feels Snape is horrified.

He looked at Snape.

'What's in the Dept. of Mysteries?'

'What did you say?' Snape asked quietly and Harry saw with deep satisfaction that Snape was unnerved.

'I said what's in the Dept. of Mysteries, sir?'

'And why,' said Snape slowly, 'would you ask such a thing?'

“So the boy…the boy must die?” asked Snape quite calmly.

“And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential.”

Another long silence. Then Snape said, “I thought…all those years…that we were protecting him for her. For Lily.”

“We have protected him because it has been essential to teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength,” said Dumbledore, his eyes still tight shut. “Meanwhile, the connection between them grows ever stronger, a parasitic growth. Sometimes I have thought he suspects it himself. If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort.”

Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.

“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?”

“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?”

“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape. He stood up. “You have used me.” bold mine

And the final part of that scene, Snape's response to Dumbledore asking if he cared for Harry was to say "For him?" and issue the Patronus - which I interpreted to mean 'no, not for Harry, but for Lily'.

My interpretation was different. I think Snape did not want to talk about Harry to Dumbledore and I find that believable because Snape had not spoken to him about Lily for such a long time that Dumbledore thought Snape had moved on. Snape by showing his Patronus turned the topic from his feelings for Harry to his feelings for Lily.

While that Patronus showed he loved Lily, I think there was nothing in it to say he hated Harry IMO.

I didn't say Snape wanted to kill Harry. I said, when he found out Harry had to die for a legitimate reason, he was indifferent to that fact. He understood and agreed with the reason and I feel he disliked Harry, so it would be natural - in my opinion - for him to be indifferent, which is how I read his calmly spoken response, 'so the boy must die'.

I think Dumbledore, Snape and Harry all had to make a choice, between letting Harry live and by that action allowing Voldemort to live, and, by sending Harry to Voldemort and thereby removing a piece of Voldemort that would help them get rid of Voldemort.

Dumbledore of course knew Harry would not die, but Snape and Harry did not know that and for both of them was the choice between the easy thing and the toughest decision of their lives. Both chose the right way over the easy way. Snape chose to give Harry the information because it was the right thing to do (instead of looking kind, good and affectionate).

Harry also chose almost exactly as Snape did, choosing the right over the easy IMO.

So I feel that Snape saw Harry's legitimate need to die (the end to the Potter line) as the end to his suffering upon seeing him as a representation of Lily's love for James according to the interview and based on what I felt were Snape's expressions of dislike for Harry and his father throughout the series.

I disagree. I saw Snape's action as courageous. To give that message to Harry would have meant a lot of thought before Snape reached the conclusion that he needed to do this, both for the WW and Harry himself. Ultimately Snape left the choice to Harry, but passed on the message IMO.

Exactly. It is ONE moment of calmness (presumably, processing information... critical thinking requires curbing one's emotions) amidst the general turmoil. I don't see how it can outweigh the rest, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. :relax:

Are you saying that if JK always described Severus as calm upon his every sentence, it would add meaning to this instance? :no:

JK had been describing Severus' appearance throughout the chapter, and she chooses to tell us here that he is "quite calm." This is in stark contrast to all of the emotions which he had been experiencing previously and those he expresses afterward. As you say, "it is ONE moment of calmness" and this adds weight to it, in my opinion.

Also, I think that if you are using the argument that he was slowly processing information, it is important to note when he lets his emotions once again show. It isn't after he realizes that Harry must die, and it isn't after Dumbledore confirms it. I would say that by that point it would be a little bit inconsistent for Snape to be able to withhold his emotion any longer. It takes Dumbledore's explanation of his Greater Good plan to bring Severus out of his reverie, and this, to me, would have required just as much mental processing as the revelation of Harry's doom.

As for the dog reference... I'm shocked, to put it mildly. Since when do we keep our pet animals on equal regard with other human beings?! What's next? Comparing stray dogs to refugees? :huh:
As I have said, I stand by that analogy, it served its purpose well, and I would ask everyone to not read so much into it. I was proposing an example situation where we might feel shocked at someone's lack of emotion. I was not suggesting that Harry was a dog, I was not suggesting that Dumbledore mistreats dogs or indeed owns one, and I was most certainly not suggesting anything about Snape's general opinion about owning a dog. Once again, the important thing I was trying to point out was the feelings involved, not the species.

US President Truman once said that the Marshall Plan and NATO were "two halves of the same walnut," but he was not suggesting that either were edible.

Are you saying that if JK always described Severus as calm upon his every sentence, it would add meaning to this instance? :no:


Here is another instance of Snape processing information. I do not find it inconsistent.


Snape looked angry, mutinous. Dumbledore sighed.
“Come to my office tonight, Severus, at eleven, and you shall not complain that I have no confidence in you…”
They were back in Dumbledore’s office, the windows dark, and Fawkes sat silent as Snape sat quite still, as Dumbledore walked around him, talking.
“Harry must not know, not until the last moment, not until it is necessary, otherwise how could he have the strength to do what must be done?”


It takes Dumbledore's explanation of his Greater Good plan to bring Severus out of his reverie, and this, to me, would have required just as much mental processing as the revelation of Harry's doom.

“We have protected him because it has been essential to teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength,” said Dumbledore, his eyes still tight shut. “Meanwhile, the connection between them grows ever stronger, a parasitic growth. Sometimes I have thought he suspects it himself. If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort.”

I read it as a moment of confirmation - the moment in which Severus realizes that Harry wasn't protected in order to live (and/or fight, even if chances of survival were slim), but in order to 'meet his death'...

Once again, the important thing I was trying to point out was the feelings involved, not the species.

Exactly the part I found offensive: implying the same feelings are involved in one's relationship with pet animals as with fellow humans. But to each his or her own, I presume...

I read it as a moment of confirmation - the moment in which Severus realizes that Harry wasn't protected in order to live (and/or fight, even if chances of survival were slim), but in order to 'meet his death'...


Me too, Dags! I definately read it as Snape speaking out aloud his thought process and not believing the conclusion he had come to. To begin with Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape outright that Harry must die, he only gives him the information that will lead Snape to that conclusion. Snape then says:

'So the boy...the boy must die?'

There is a hesitation in this sentence, which to me indicates that he was working this out as he was speaking. It is also a question, which denotes to me that he cannot believe the conclusion that he has arrived at and needs confirmation that his conclusion is correct. I think he speaks calmly because it slowly dawns on him what Dumbledore is trying to tell him and he can't quite believe it.

Look at him in the Shack with Voldemort when he knows he needs to get out of there and warn Harry. His face is described as a "death mask" and he tries to stay calm, but he obviously didn't want to die at that moment. He must have been anything but calm on the inside. No one is indifferent to their own death, in my opinion.

Exactly. :sigh:

Me too, Dags! I definately read it as Snape speaking out aloud his thought process and not believing the conclusion he had come to. To begin with Dumbledore doesn't tell Snape outright that Harry must die, he only gives him the information that will lead Snape to that conclusion. Snape then says:

'So the boy...the boy must die?'

There is a hesitation in this sentence, which to me indicates that he was working this out as he was speaking. It is also a question, which denotes to me that he cannot believe the conclusion that he has arrived at and needs confirmation that his conclusion is correct. I think he speaks calmly because it slowly dawns on him what Dumbledore is trying to tell him and he can't quite believe it.

This is how I read that passage. :tu:

The more I read that line the more convinced I am that Snape is trying to distance himself from the idea of Harry (notice Snape calls him 'the boy') dying. It is another one of his emotional avoidance tricks if you ask me. I think Dumbledore is spot on when he asks if Snape has becomne fond of Harry. Snape's excessively defensive response IMO confirms it. Snape has watched people die. He is no stranger to death. Now he only watches those die whom he cannot save. So how can we for one minute think that Severus was anything but horrified at the prospect of Harry dying? Snape is now a man who is not indifferent to the deaths of strangers, so to suggest he is indifferent (or anything similar) to Harry dying is IMO totally contradictory to the canon. We see him try to save Remus Lupin during Harry's deaprture from Privet Drive. This makes it quite clear that the old grudges do not prevent him from trying to save a life - that he is not happy if harm or death befall his childhood enemies. So I cannot for one moment accept that Snape was happy about, or even indifferent to, the fact that Harry had to die.

I also think that Dumbledore was hiding his emotions as well during this conversation. He seems to me to be putting on a rather jaunty front for discussing this subject which I believe is something he felt very strongly about. It is also worth noting that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would not die. Funnily enough I think that Snape is shocked that Dumbledore's apparent lack of feeling, which is rather ironic for someone who spends so much time and energy hiding his own feelings.

The more I read that line the more convinced I am that Snape is trying to distance himself from the idea of Harry (notice Snape calls him 'the boy') dying. It is another one of his emotional avoidance tricks if you ask me. I think Dumbledore is spot on when he asks if Snape has becomne fond of Harry. Snape's excessively defensive response IMO confirms it. Snape has watched people die. He is no stranger to death. Now he only watches those die whom he cannot save. So how can we for one minute think that Severus was anything but horrified at the prospect of Harry dying? Snape is now a man who is not indifferent to the deaths of strangers, so to suggest he is indifferent (or anything similar) to Harry dying is IMO totally contradictory to the canon. We see him try to save Remus Lupin during Harry's deaprture from Privet Drive. This makes it quite clear that the old grudges do not prevent him from trying to save a life - that he is not happy if harm or death befall his childhood enemies. So I cannot for one moment accept that Snape was happy about, or even indifferent to, the fact that Harry had to die.

I also think that Dumbledore was hiding his emotions as well during this conversation. He seems to me to be putting on a rather jaunty front for discussing this subject which I believe is something he felt very strongly about. It is also worth noting that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would not die. Funnily enough I think that Snape is shocked that Dumbledore's apparent lack of feeling, which is rather ironic for someone who spends so much time and energy hiding his own feelings.

I totally love how you said that. Nice job :agree:
I was rereading Prince's Tale last night and when I came to that conversation I as well thought that Snape was rather defensive toward Harry. He cared about him in the end too, not just Lily. And the "Always" line pretty much confirmed it for me.

He cared about him in the end too, not just Lily. And the "Always" line pretty much confirmed it for me.

Hmmm, actually we might have to disagree on this point. I don't ever see Snape caring for Harry. I don't think he ever cared about Harry himself. I wouldn't contradict the fact that he cared about Lily and so agreed to protect her son. But I wouldn't say that he cared about Harry in the end. The 'Always' mentioned in the text, only confirmed that Snape cares for Lily and no one else. That was pretty clear to me. I'll try to quote the whole passage so we'd be able to judge better.

"But this is touching Severus," said Dumbledore seriously, "Have you grown to care for the boy after all?"
"For him?" Shouted Snape, "Expecto Patronum!"
And after that the doe comes out of his wand. 'Always' there, I believe meant his care for Lily and not for Harry. I don't think Snape would shout at Dumbledore if the matter wasn't highly touching to him, imo. He must've felt strongly toward Lily and had no positive feelings toward Harry. If not the opposite. But that's JMO.

Cathy, that was a great post. :cool:

Hmmm, actually we might have to disagree on this point. I don't ever see Snape caring for Harry. I don't think he ever cared about Harry himself. I wouldn't contradict the fact that he cared about Lily and so agreed to protect her son. But I wouldn't say that he cared about Harry in the end. The 'Always' mentioned in the text, only confirmed that Snape cares for Lily and no one else. That was pretty clear to me. I'll try to quote the whole passage so we'd be able to judge better.

"But this is touching Severus," said Dumbledore seriously, "Have you grown to care for the boy after all?"
"For him?" Shouted Snape, "Expecto Patronum!"
And after that the doe comes out of his wand. 'Always' there, I believe meant his care for Lily and not for Harry. I don't think Snape would shout at Dumbledore if the matter wasn't highly touching to him, imo. He must've felt strongly toward Lily and had no positive feelings toward Harry. If not the opposite. But that's JMO.

That does seem to be what Rowling intended to convey.

There is a school of thought, however, that takes the view that Snape is 'protesting too much'. That even if he did come to care for Harry, he could never bring himself to admit it. Hence the vehement 'him? you must be kidding!' reaction.

I find that an entirely plausible interpretation of Snape's reaction in this passage: it's in keeping with the character that Rowling wrote, and while there is no direct canon to prove that underneath his passionate protestation that it's all about Lily and not Harry in the slightest, it's a theory I like. :tu:

The more I read that line the more convinced I am that Snape is trying to distance himself from the idea of Harry (notice Snape calls him 'the boy') dying. It is another one of his emotional avoidance tricks if you ask me. I think Dumbledore is spot on when he asks if Snape has becomne fond of Harry. Snape's excessively defensive response IMO confirms it. Snape has watched people die. He is no stranger to death. Now he only watches those die whom he cannot save. So how can we for one minute think that Severus was anything but horrified at the prospect of Harry dying? Snape is now a man who is not indifferent to the deaths of strangers, so to suggest he is indifferent (or anything similar) to Harry dying is IMO totally contradictory to the canon.

Well-Said, Cathy! Just because Snape invokes Lily at the end of that doesn't mean he is indifferent to Harry - far from it. What is Snape left with if Harry has to die? Nothing! That's his whole motivation for living. :(


I also think that Dumbledore was hiding his emotions as well during this conversation. He seems to me to be putting on a rather jaunty front for discussing this subject which I believe is something he felt very strongly about. It is also worth noting that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would not die. Funnily enough I think that Snape is shocked that Dumbledore's apparent lack of feeling, which is rather ironic for someone who spends so much time and energy hiding his own feelings.
It is ironic, but Snape is never as detached as Dumbledore. He's incapable of being cerebral about everything the way Dumbledore is, which I think speaks well for Snape as a human being.

US President Truman once said that the Marshall Plan and NATO were "two halves of the same walnut," but he was not suggesting that either were edible.
But a walnut is inanimate. He didn't compare the soldiers of WWII to dogs being put down for the greater good because that would have been insensitive to people who cared about their loved ones who were fighting.

For me, this dog-analogy is getting into Aunt Marge territory. She was shown to be totally insensitive to Harry. Plus she liked dogs more than people, which is the whole backstory about Ripper chasing Harry up the tree. Snape was even sympathetic about that: "To whom did the dog belong?"

US President Truman once said that the Marshall Plan and NATO were "two halves of the same walnut," but he was not suggesting that either were edible.

That is a metaphor. What you said is a parallel. They work differently: a metaphor transports meaning, and a parallel gives an analogous situation.

The way Snape was able to fool Voldie with his allegiance makes me wish there was a Hogwarts poker game to watch.

Thank you for the welcome Pearl_Took, I appreciate it.

Snape has always tried to protect Harry, with no advantage to himself. From the very first book, Snape was saying a counter-curse to prevent Harry from falling off his broom. At the time they thought Snape was the one saying the Jinx but it was Quirell.

He could have stood back and let Quirell's plan unfold, but he was the only one to suspect Quirell and he went out of his way to stop the plan

You see him doing this again and again in the books, even when it gives him personal pain, the Occlumency lessons for example.

I find it ironic that Snape once complained about Harry being sentimental when in fact he was even more. I can't recall whether it was from the books but at least he said so in the OOTP film.

I felt sorry for Snape. He was a complex character. He was very good to hide his feelings. His past influenced his cold behavour. Even though he wouldn't admit it, he loved Harry and he wanted to take care of Lily's only son for her sake.

Here is another instance of Snape processing information. I do not find it inconsistent.

First of all, I find that reading "sitting quite still" as the same as "calm" is just as bad as reading "calm" as the same as "indifferent," but moving on from that, I did distinguish in this scene because the setting had just switched, and as far as we know, Dumbledore had not told him anything groundbreaking (otherwise we would have been present). From what we can see, Dumbledore had just been briefing him about his task at the Battle of Hogwarts, but had not told him the specifics, so I don't see why Snape would show any sort of emotion on his face here.

I read it as a moment of confirmation - the moment in which Severus realizes that Harry wasn't protected in order to live (and/or fight, even if chances of survival were slim), but in order to 'meet his death'...

This is sort of what I have been saying all along. I read Dumbledore's previous line ("and Voldemort must do it") as the confirmation that Harry must die, and this line as the confirmation that this was really Dumbledore's plan all along. So what does Snape react to? Harry dying, or it being part of Dumbledore's plan. From what I can tell, he takes more issue with the latter.



Exactly the part I found offensive: implying the same feelings are involved in one's relationship with pet animals as with fellow humans. But to each his or her own, I presume...
That is a metaphor. What you said is a parallel. They work differently: a metaphor transports meaning, and a parallel gives an analogous situation.
But a walnut is inanimate. He didn't compare the soldiers of WWII to dogs being put down for the greater good because that would have been insensitive to people who cared about their loved ones who were fighting.

For me, this dog-analogy is getting into Aunt Marge territory. She was shown to be totally insensitive to Harry. Plus she liked dogs more than people, which is the whole backstory about Ripper chasing Harry up the tree. Snape was even sympathetic about that: "To whom did the dog belong?"


I will drop this, it seems like people either get what I was trying to say with the analogy, or they don't.

The way Snape was able to fool Voldie with his allegiance makes me wish there was a Hogwarts poker game to watch.
:rotfl:


I find it ironic that Snape once complained about Harry being sentimental when in fact he was even more. I can't recall if it was from the books but he said so in the OOTP film.

Here it is - the "heart on the sleeve" speech. I think Snape knew what he was talking about because Voldemort figured him out pretty fast as a boy, too. I love the "wallow in sad memories" comment, too, when we consider all the crying going on in Prince's Tale. It's meant to be ironic in hindsight.

From OotP, "Occlumency"

"I told you to empty yourself of emotion!"

"Yeah? Well, I’m finding that hard at the moment," Harry snarled.

"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in said memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily – weak people, in other words – they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"

"I am not weak," said Harry in a low voice, fury now pumping through him so that he thought he might attack Snape in a moment.

"Then prove it! Master yourself!" spat Snape. "Control your anger, discipline your mind! We shall try again! Get ready, now! Legilimens!"


Quote found on Severus Snape in Canon (http://www.snapecanonsite.com/orderofthephoenix.htm)

:rotfl:
Here it is - the "heart on the sleeve" speech. I think Snape knew what he was talking about because Voldemort figured him out pretty fast as a boy, too. I love the "wallow in sad memories" comment, too, when we consider all the crying going on in Prince's Tale. It's meant to be ironic in hindsight.



Yeah, I never realised when I read it before DH, that he had been talking about himself.

There have been some great posts lately :cool:

Hmmm, actually we might have to disagree on this point. I don't ever see Snape caring for Harry. I don't think he ever cared about Harry himself. I wouldn't contradict the fact that he cared about Lily and so agreed to protect her son. But I wouldn't say that he cared about Harry in the end.

I think that some of the conflict that arises from the ‘Did Severus care for Harry?’ question is that the word care can mean very different things. It gives no real indication of dept of feeling one can care that they have broken a nail and one can care about their soul mate – its just not the same thing but the word care is equally as apt imo.

Personally I think it is unarguable that Severus had some care for ensuring Harry’s survival – that is established by the end of PS/SS.

There is a school of thought, however, that takes the view that Snape is 'protesting too much'. That even if he did come to care for Harry, he could never bring himself to admit it. Hence the vehement 'him? you must be kidding!' reaction.

I find that an entirely plausible interpretation of Snape's reaction in this passage: it's in keeping with the character that Rowling wrote, and while there is no direct canon to prove that underneath his passionate protestation that it's all about Lily and not Harry in the slightest, it's a theory I like. :tu:

:D Yes Pearl I agree! – Me thinks he protests too much :agree:

Personally I think he has developed quite a deep level of care about Harry but not one to which he could admit – perhaps it would be too much like saying James was ok because he had linked the two in his mind so much :hmm:

Also I don’t think that saying he has come to care about Harry contradicts his still disliking him quite a lot! The old adage about love & hate being similar emotions comes into play and I think it is possible that maybe they both come into play when we look at Snape’s feeling for Harry – just a thought :)

I find it ironic that Snape once complained about Harry being sentimental when in fact he was even more.

Yes he was a very sentimental person he just keeps it all buttoned up :sigh:

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

Yes he was a very sentimental person he just keeps it all buttoned up :sigh:

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

:lol:

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

Luckily there are other places here to do just that. :love:

I think that some of the conflict that arises from the ‘Did Severus care for Harry?’ question is that the word care can mean very different things. It gives no real indication of dept of feeling one can care that they have broken a nail and one can care about their soul mate – its just not the same thing but the word care is equally as apt imo.

And Harry believes that Snape is just like Petunia and didn't give damn about him, but as Dumbledore points out, Petunia cared enough to give him a place to live until he turned 17, even though she cared about her own son more. So there are degrees of caring. Petunia remembered Lily, too, but she didn't care about her to the same degree that Snape obviously did.

There is a school of thought, however, that takes the view that Snape is 'protesting too much'. That even if he did come to care for Harry, he could never bring himself to admit it. Hence the vehement 'him? you must be kidding!' reaction.

I find that an entirely plausible interpretation of Snape's reaction in this passage: it's in keeping with the character that Rowling wrote, and while there is no direct canon to prove that underneath his passionate protestation that it's all about Lily and not Harry in the slightest, it's a theory I like. :tu:

I like this theory too! :D

Also I don’t think that saying he has come to care about Harry contradicts his still disliking him quite a lot! The old adage about love & hate being similar emotions comes into play and I think it is possible that maybe they both come into play when we look at Snape’s feeling for Harry – just a thought :)
Exactly! :agree:You can dislike someone but still show a level of care for them. I personally think that Snape had very conflicting emotions were Harry was concerned. Harry is a reminder of both his hate for James and his love for Lily.

Yes he was a very sentimental person he just keeps it all buttoned up :sigh:

Yeah, and in the films he is quite literally buttoned up.:lol: I think the person who designed that costume got it spot on.

*resists urge to glomp literary character*
:lol:

It is ironic, but Snape is never as detached as Dumbledore. He's incapable of being cerebral about everything the way Dumbledore is, which I think speaks well for Snape as a human being. :agree: Yes Dumbledore is quite a cool detatched person, whereas Snape is very emotional. I cannot help but be reminded of Marianne from Sense and Sensibility - or at least the idea that some people are more emotional than others. Severus is IMO someone who is very emotional but he sees it as a weakness to be overcome, (as indeed many men who are very emotional do) so I think he would have a desire to employ occlumency to a degree, even if his 'mission' did not demand it. And given his naturally emotional nature it shows how very accomplished an occlumens he is.

OT: You can tell I am reading Pride and Prejudice again by the language I am using! :lol:

As for Snape caring about Harry - I think he did but could not admit it to himself let alone anybody else. However I am currently contemplating that scene where Severus produces the patronus. Undoubtedly one of the purposes of that scene from Jo's point of view as the writer was to reveal Sev's patronus. So he had to reference Lily and say that it was all for her. But even given this his protestations did not have to be so vehement. It could just have easily been a start or a shrug as if the idea of caring for Harry was one he had never even considered and then him simply saying "No you are mistaken if you think I care for the boy. Expecto Patronum' As it is it implies to me that when it comes to Harrry Potter Snape's emotions are extremely conflicted. To paraphrase another wise wizard - 'He hates and Loves Harry as he hates and loves himself'

Dumbledore relied on Snape ability to deny his own emotions. So I have to wonder, why would he ask Snape to admit the possibility of caring for Harry? Was it just a rhetorical question or did Dumbledore want to goad Snape into keeping up his guard? I would like to argue that Dumbledore wanted Snape to come to some kind of epiphany- but this is the same man who told Snape the condition of his soul was his own business- so I can't read that into this scene.

To me, that scene reads to me as if Dumbledore was almost antagonizing Snape into defending his attitude against caring for Harry (too much.) Because he needed Snape to stay logical here. He needed Snape to carry this message to Harry that would ask Harry to go to his death willingly. It had to be Snape to do this, because Snape was the most loyal and the most capable of keeping such a dark secret.

Even if we read somewhere in the books that Snape had come to care for Harry- Dumbledore & the readers would know that canon Snape would never have broken down and admitted such a thing for these reasons ; 1) Snape has spent his life denying his emotions and 2) Snape works directly under a Dark Lord who gains power by seeing into their minds then manipulating and using the people and things victims care about.

Snape was good at his job because of number 1. His unfortunate childhood molded him into someone who would be naturally very guarded about his emotions and anything. But this is also what makes his friendship with Lily so special and so poignant is that she is the ONE person for whom Severus would let down his guard and allow some loss of personal control. He was most human around her.

In the end we see Snape literally lose all of his emotions, and control over his life's memories- all those things he kept bottled up come pouring out of him as he looks into "Lily's eyes."

But long before then, it is reasonable to assume IMO, that every time he looked at Harry, - if he allowed himself to see Lily in the boys eyes- he would feel some threat of losing control or exposing too much.

I would like to argue that Dumbledore wanted Snape to come to some kind of epiphany-
Are you saying that he was looking for Severus to admit that he cared about Harry, not just the mission (whether it was DD's plan or just protecting Lilly's son). If so, I agree. I'll admit that the passage was a lead-in to Snape revealing his patronus and his still held feelings for Lilly (as some have said) but I would also argue that it was carefully written and full of meaning.

Oh, and (small point, but):
- but this is the same man who told Snape the condition of his soul was his own business- so I can't read that into this scene.
I thought DD meant that only Severus would know, for certain, whether he was murdering DD or simply helping a dying man leave at the time of his choosing,with dignity and without pain. It wasn't stated that killing tears your soul, murder does. I know, sorry... I said, "small point".

I thought DD meant that only Severus would know, for certain, whether he was murdering DD or simply helping a dying man leave at the time of his choosing,with dignity and without pain. It wasn't stated that killing tears your soul, murder does. I know, sorry... I said, "small point".

I think that's a good distinction to bring up in this case. Also it speaks well for Snape because Dumbledore knew he would feel remorse for the killing anyway, so his soul would not stay torn. Snape was not a natural born killer, in my opinion.

I thought DD meant that only Severus would know, for certain, whether he was murdering DD or simply helping a dying man leave at the time of his choosing,with dignity and without pain. It wasn't stated that killing tears your soul, murder does. I know, sorry... I said, "small point".

Yes, I agree with this interpretation. :)

I'll admit that the passage was a lead-in to Snape revealing his patronus and his still held feelings for Lilly (as some have said) but I would also argue that it was carefully written and full of meaning. bold mine

:agree: Snape cleverly deflected any questions by Dumbledore about Harry by showing his Patronus and diverting Dumbledore's attention towards it and Lily. I think it showed that Snape was not ready to talk about Harry to Dumbledore or indeed anyone else.

I thought DD meant that only Severus would know, for certain, whether he was murdering DD or simply helping a dying man leave at the time of his choosing,with dignity and without pain. It wasn't stated that killing tears your soul, murder does. I know, sorry... I said, "small point".

I agree with this as well. Only Snape would know whether it was murder or not; and that act alone would determine who the Master of the EW would be. Snape or Dumbledore himself.

Dumbledore by asking Snape to kill him, shows how much he trusts Snape to do the right thing. He knows that Snape by killing him in a wrong frame of mind could easily become the master of the EW. And this is what Dumbledore trusts him with; that Snape would never have the mindset to murder him; he would kill Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted it that way IMO.

Dumbledore by asking Snape to kill him, shows how much he trusts Snape to do the right thing. He knows that Snape by killing him in a wrong frame of mind could easily become the master of the EW. And this is what Dumbledore trusts him with; that Snape would never have the mindset to murder him; he would kill Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted it that way IMO.
Very good point! I have always thought that in asking Snape to kill him he showed that he totally trusted Snape; there was not a scrap of doubt in Dumbledore's mind that Severus was dedicated to the Order and would continue to work for their goals after Dumbledore was dead.
The difference between Draco killing Dumbledore and Severus killing Dumbledore is that if Draco did it it would be murder, but when Severus kills Dumbeldore it is a mercy killing - rather like shooting someone who is condemned to burn at the stake. I think this is what Dumbeldore makes clear when he tells Snape that only he would know. Dumbledore beleives that for Snape it would be a mercy killing but only Severus can know what is in his heart and therefore know whether or not it is murder, but I think Dumbledore makes it clear that he does not think that Snape will be murdering him.

I've always thought that Snape in this scene was genuinely worried about the state of his soul. At this time he has spent a good while trying to make up for all that he did as a DE and perhaps he has good reason to worry about this. Also I'm very ambivilent about assisted suicide and I think this is what DD is asking of Snape. Suicide to my mind is a sin and it is something that cannot be taken back.Snape has every reason to be worried. He has made great efforts to repent of his sins and to try to do the right thing, and here is DD asking him to do something that is morally questionable, at least from a Christian point of view. What I like about the whole series is that Jo does not shrink from the difficult aspects of her charactors. They have hard choices and they make them. Snape had to make the choice to turn his back on a society that accepted him. It was a despicable society but he must have got something from it to be a willing member for years, but he did turn his back on it. I have always admired that about him. I think it is easier if you never waver in doing right, Snape wavered and fell, then he had to drag himself up and out. And he did it.

Just catching up on a few posts ... ;)

I agree completely with Cathy and Eliza.

As I have said before, if we regard Snape's mercy killing of Dumbledore as murder, that makes a mockery of both Dumbledore's morals and Snape's. It also makes a mockery of Rowling's overall arcs for both these characters, in my very humble opinion, since she clearly regards Albus as redeemed, and she said that she wanted Snape to be redeemed ... and I believe that to be the case.

Like Eliza, I find the notion of assisted suicide morally queasy. Dumbledore's request of Snape does make me very uneasy. But this is fantasy, not reality. In the context of Rowling's story, and her wider purposes thereof, I believe we are meant to accept Dumbledore's request (command, really) and Snape's carrying out of Dumbledore's wishes. I think we, the readers, are meant to accept -- as Severus clearly does -- the 'higher' wisdom of Albus in this matter.

IMO. :cool:

Just catching up on a few posts ... ;)

I agree completely with Cathy and Eliza.

As I have said before, if we regard Snape's mercy killing of Dumbledore as murder, that makes a mockery of both Dumbledore's morals and Snape's. It also makes a mockery of Rowling's overall arcs for both these characters, in my very humble opinion, since she clearly regards Albus as redeemed, and she said that she wanted Snape to be redeemed ... and I believe that to be the case.

Like Eliza, I find the notion of assisted suicide morally queasy. Dumbledore's request of Snape does make me very uneasy. But this is fantasy, not reality. In the context of Rowling's story, and her wider purposes thereof, I believe we are meant to accept Dumbledore's request (command, really) and Snape's carrying out of Dumbledore's wishes. I think we, the readers, are meant to accept -- as Severus clearly does -- the 'higher' wisdom of Albus in this matter.

IMO. :cool:

Yes we do have to keep in mind that it is a work of fiction and not real. Still ponder over it and question that part. I know Snape would have to commit some act that in the eyes of the world that would look like the greatest evil, but still? I'm not alone in this though, Snape questions it as well.

I'm not alone in this though, Snape questions it as well.

Yes, he does. :tu: :)

Also I'm very ambivilent about assisted suicide and I think this is what DD is asking of Snape. Suicide to my mind is a sin and it is something that cannot be taken back.Snape has every reason to be worried. He has made great efforts to repent of his sins and to try to do the right thing, and here is DD asking him to do something that is morally questionable, at least from a Christian point of view.
I am completely against assisted suicide, and I do admire Jo's courage for including this in her books. But as has already been said this is fiction, but I also think that the way it was arranged that Severus had plenty of 'get out clauses' in terms of killing another human being. Firstly Albus was dying from the ring curse, and at the time of his death we know that he would probably have a month at most left to live. Secondly Albus had been targetted by Voldemort so one way or another he was going to die. Thirdly as Albus points out given his position as the only one that Voldemort feared his death is likely to be unpleasant. Fourthly Albus does not want a young boy (Draco) to become a murderer because of Voldemort's machinations. Given all this I don't see it as assisted suicide so much as saving Draco's soul. I believe that given all the information that Severus had it was an act of mercy not just for Dumbledore but also (and to a greater extent) an act of mercy towards Draco. I think Draco is the real motivation here.

Actually this is somethig that is done in real life - forcing people to kill to traumatise and de-sensitise them to it. This is what Vodlemort is doing to Draco and what Dumbledore and Snape are trying to save him from.

I would just like to add that Greyback was there and more than willing to finish DD himself...after playing with his food a bit. Sure, Severus could have kept Greyback at bay but Albus was going to die that night and Avada Kedavra was the most humane way (for both DD and Draco). I look at it like a mercy killing rather than an assisted suicide. I don't know much about about assisted suicide (I have, thankfully, not walked in those shoes) but I do know about mercy and it is to be welcomed almost unconditionally.

I'd like to ask you all to move away from the euthanasia debate. It's okay to mention it but discussing it in-depth is too mature and specific for this forum.

Okay, my take on Severus Snape as a a character. Personally, I can forgive Snape for everything but one thing.

Yes, he hated Sirius for obvious reasons; yes he was nasty to Harry, for rather illogical reasons, but understandable on an emotional level. Yes he killed Dumbledore, an incident in which he had virtually no choice. Yes, he watched Voldemort kill people without a qualm, because not to do so would put his status as a double-agent into jeopardy.

However, there is absolutely no excuse for his treatment of Lupin. I think it's a rather overlooked incident because of the suspenseful setting, but has anyone else ever noticed that absolute cruelty Snape shows at the climax of PoA? As I said, of course he's not going to treat Sirius with any respect; Sirius was horrible to him at school and was believed by the entire wizarding world, including Snape, to be a sadistic mass murderer. But poor Lupin, who never did the slightest thing to him?? And I'm not just saying Snape disliked him, that would be understandable, but to be willing to see his soul sucked from him, without even a trial? To taunt him about his lycanthropy in cruel, vindictive terms in front of students? To refuse to hear his explanation when Lupin pleaded with him to listen? To tie and gag Lupin so tightly that the ropes cut him and he had no feeling in his hands and prepare to "drag" him all the way back to Hogwarts to be handed over to the Dementors? I'm getting some serious Bellatrix vibes here, people. To vindictively humiliate and expose him in front of the whole school when the nice little plan involving the Dementors failed? I'm afraid I can't forgive Snape that. And what about the fact that he kept Lupin healthy all year with the Wolfsbane potion? If you stop to think, he can't really have meant anything by it, considering the circumstances I have just detailed. As Harry points out in HBP, he couldn't really have done anything else under Dumbledore's nose.

Considering all this, (which I personally believe is Snape's darkest hour) I can't really see him as a nice guy. Yes, he did absolutely amazingly brave things, but as far as his character goes, I really think he's a pretty nasty person.

Any other thoughts?

However, there is absolutely no excuse for his treatment of Lupin. I think it's a rather overlooked incident
Trust me, it hasn't been overlooked on this thread. :lol:

And I probably won't get into it again, but I'll just say that Lupin was the one who didn't take his potion that night (how does a werewolf forget that?) and since Fudge was waiting to hear his story when Lupin emerged from the Forest, I think the Ministry had more to do with Lupin's resignation than anything Snape said.

Lupin was toast anyway because of the one-year curse on DADA.

I think Snape told the Slytherins after the fact since Lupin came back to the castle at daybreak, before the kids would have been at breakfast anyway.

To me it's a parallel with the death of Sirius. Harry blames Snape for it, but there are twenty other factors beyond something Snape said. Lupin and Sirius both made their own decisions. They were grown men, as Dumbledore points out to Harry after Sirius dies. Snape was not their "keeper," so to speak. Just my opinion.

Edited to Add: Snape also didn't owe them anything, and they certainly didn't care what he thought about anything anyway.

I think Snape told the Slytherins after the fact since Lupin came back to the castle at daybreak, before the kids would have been at breakfast anyway.

Well, it specifically says in PoA that Snape "'accidentally' let it slip.....at breakfast this morning. :) So unless it was some special 'Slytherins Only' breakfast we weren't told about, he definitely told the whole school.

Trust me, it hasn't been overlooked on this thread.

Sorry, I should probably have read more of the thread before posting. :)

Yes, he did absolutely amazingly brave things, but as far as his character goes, I really think he's a pretty nasty person.

Any other thoughts?

Many.

But as I actually agree with your 'Severus-in-a-nutshell' description, I won't express most of them here.

"No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he – er - accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast."

"You're not leaving just because of that!" said Harry.

Lupin smiled wryly. "This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents – they will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry. And after last night, I see their point. I could have bitten any of you... that must never happen again."

I believe that was the quote you were looking for? Bolds are mine, of course...

If we disregard for a moment a rather nasty comment about Snape's motivation - and I do believe Lupin was in on his role for the Order by then (feel free to correct me with a quote, otherwise), so I can't help wondering whether he thought Severus was selling Voldemort for a Merlin too - we're still left with Lupin's second statement.

Lupin is a werewolf. Teaching at school. Who 'forgot' to take his dose of Wolfsbane before venturing out through the school grounds on a full moon - Wolfsbane which, may I add, was available in copious quantities, made specifically for him - and was caught attempting to assist an Azkaban escapee. By the person who has "...just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your Potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along."

Maybe Sev thought he might get a Merlin for feeding him the potion as well? :huh:

:You're wrong," said Lupin. "I haven't been Sirius' friend for twelwe years, but I am now... let me explain..."

"NO!" Hermione screamed, “Harry, don’t trust him, he’s been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too — he’s a werewolf!

So, you see, Professor wasn't the only one... reluctant to hear Lupin out. The only reason the Trio decided to give him a chance to speak was him mentioning the Marauders and their map.

Unfortunately, for Snape that particular acquaintance of his didn't exactly invoke feelings of trust and relief...

So, while I agree with your statement that Severus is 'a pretty nasty person', I also think in most cases he has one hell of a good reason to be.

JMO, as always. :relax:

As I said, of course he's not going to treat Sirius with any respect; Sirius was horrible to him at school and was believed by the entire wizarding world, including Snape, to be a sadistic mass murderer. But poor Lupin, who never did the slightest thing to him??

Snape expresses the belief that Lupin was involved in setting up the werewolf incident, so he does have some reason not to like Lupin. It is not even a totally unreasonable supposition, though I believe Lupin's denial of involvement myself. Logically, it was from Lupin that Sirius learned how to get under the Willow, as the other available sources of that information would be Albus and Madam Pomfrey. Snape for years knew of no other reason Lupin would share that information with Sirius.

Snape also expressed the belief that Lupin has been helping Sirius during PoA. In particular, he believed that Lupin went into the Willow in order to meet with his confederate Black, and when he arrived on the scene, Presto! Lupin was meeting with his confederate. This is a second reason he could be angry with Lupin in the scene in question.

And I'm not just saying Snape disliked him, that would be understandable, but to be willing to see his soul sucked from him, without even a trial?

He made that threat, but I very much doubt he would have carried it out. Sirius was a convicted fugitive from justice that Snape could do such a thing to (and probably collect an Order of Merlin for...) but not Lupin. Personally I think it was an idle threat.

To refuse to hear his explanation when Lupin pleaded with him to listen?

Lupin did not plead. He asked insistently, and then insulted Snape:

"Severus --" Lupin began, but Snape overrode him.

"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not even I dreamed you would have the nerve to use this old place as your hideout --"

"Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry --"

"Two more for Azkaban tonight," said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically. "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this.... He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin... a tame werewolf --"

"You fool," said Lupin softly. "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?"

To tie and gag Lupin so tightly that the ropes cut him and he had no feeling in his hands and prepare to "drag" him all the way back to Hogwarts to be handed over to the Dementors?

I do in fact believe Snape meant to bring Lupin to the castle, as you state. It is another reason I do not believe that he was not planning to hand him to the Dementors, because the Ministry had only sentenced Sirius to that fate. Lupin might have been suspected once Snape gave his evidence against him, but he was not convicted of anything, let alone sentenced. At worst, he would have been arrested pending investigation, at the castle.

As for the reason to restrain him - Snape knew he was about to transform. His action protected everyone in the room, until the others untied Lupin, that is.

Snape also let out Lupin's secret earlier than the next morning, he told Fudge that night (because Lupin was at that point at large on the grounds). I am not sure Lupin had any choice but to resign even before the incident at breakfast. It might have been Snape explaining Lupin's leaving to the Slytherins, rather than making it happen. Hagrid tells Harry:

"Leavin', isn' he?" said Hagrid, looking surprised that Harry had to ask. "Resigned firs' thing this mornin'. Says he can't risk it happenin again.

"First thing this morning" could be before breakfast. Or not. It is left ambiguous.

Finally, we know Snape made an attempt to save Lupin's life in DH. This is a circumstance the inclines me towards more favorable interpretations of details left ambiguous by PoA.

Snape really couldn't keep Lupin's secret to Fudge because Harry and Hermione had been attacked by Dementors, they had Sirius Black in custody, and Ron had a broken leg.

Snape had to explain what he was doing out there on the grounds with injured children and an escaped convict, even if he had sympathized with Lupin. It really wasn't his fault that Lupin was roaming free.

Everyone has to face consequences and Lupin is no different, in my opinion.

So Fudge knew about Lupin that night when he and Snape were talking, and later when the kids tried to tell him about Peter Pettigrew.

It wasn't Snape's job to decide whether Lupin should stay or go, and it was impossible for Lupin to fight the Ministry and try to keep his job.

Plus as I said before, the DADA curse bit him in the tail, so to speak.

In the third book Harry goes " so that's why Snape hates you? Because he thinks you were in on the joke?"
And Snape goes "that's right "
Does that mean he heard the whole story? Or just Harry's question?
Because if he did it's just a bit more unreasonable to let it "accidentally" slip that he was a werewolf right?
um, one more thing i was'nt clear about.Was Snape one of the top death Eaters when he told Voldemort the prophecy?Because if he was, would'nt he have known Sirius wasnt "the spy"? Wouldnt he have found out?
Don't get me wrong i love Snape but still.

Complicated
Complicated
Complicated
Confused
Confused
Confused.

In the third book Harry goes " so that's why Snape hates you? Because he thinks you were in on the joke?"
And Snape goes "that's right "
Does that mean he heard the whole story? Or just Harry's question?
Because if he did it's just a bit more unreasonable to let it "accidentally" slip that he was a werewolf right?

No, I don't see why that would make any difference. Why do you think so?

eta: Lupin wasn't fired because Snape told the students about him being a werewolf. He didn't take his potion the night before and was running wild, and Fudge knew it. I know SIP has already mentioned this, but it seems to need repeating.

um, one more thing i was'nt clear about.Was Snape one of the top death Eaters when he told Voldemort the prophecy?Because if he was, would'nt he have known Sirius wasnt "the spy"? Wouldnt he have found out?
Don't get me wrong i love Snape but still.

The fact that Severus didn't know that Sirius wasn't the spy is a pretty good indication to me that he wasn't in the Inner Circle. After all, he'd only have been 19 or 20 at the time; pretty young to be a big shot Death Eater IMO. I can just imagine him thinking that here was a chance to make a big impression of the DL.

Complicated
Complicated
Complicated
Confused
Confused
Confused.

:huggles: I know. :lol:

As a sidenote, I massively disapprove of the use of Dementors, regardless of which characters we are talking about: it really shocks me that the Wizarding World uses Dementors as punishment. :no: It is utterly horrific, it's even worse than execution. So the WW gets an overwhelming thumbs-down from me over this barbaric practice. :td:

Returning to the Shrieking Shack, Snape was under a lot of pressure that night, faced with his old nemesis, a guy he still thought responsible for Lily's murder. And to find out that Remus (a guy he'd been helping all year, even though they didn't like each other very much) had been complicit in letting Sirius in ... well, Snape explodes. :yuhup:

I'm not condoning his threat to Remus at all. To threaten anyone with the Dementors is awful. :sigh: But, as arithmancer says:

Finally, we know Snape made an attempt to save Lupin's life in DH. This is a circumstance the inclines me towards more favorable interpretations of details left ambiguous by PoA.

:tu:

Yes, one could see that as a sort of recompense on Snape's part for the harsh threat used in the Shrieking Shack.

And what about the fact that he kept Lupin healthy all year with the Wolfsbane potion? If you stop to think, he can't really have meant anything by it, considering the circumstances I have just detailed. As Harry points out in HBP, he couldn't really have done anything else under Dumbledore's nose.

If as you say, Snape couldn't have done anything under Dumbledore's nose, then surely that would also include handing Lupin to the Dementors on Hogwarts grounds.

I agree with arithmancer that this was an idle threat by Snape. I think he made it as a way to scare and intimidate both Lupin and Sirius, and it worked.

Considering all this, (which I personally believe is Snape's darkest hour) I can't really see him as a nice guy. Yes, he did absolutely amazingly brave things, but as far as his character goes, I really think he's a pretty nasty person.

Indeed he could be nasty, but there were reasons behind his actions than just simple nastiness. As others have already pointed out he knew Remus could transform into a Werewolf and was therefore a danger to everyone. He also at the time had every reason to believe that Remus had been assisting Sirius, who he and the rest of the wizarding world believed was a murderer. And, that Sirius was out to get Harry.

Well, it specifically says in PoA that Snape "'accidentally' let it slip.....at breakfast this morning. :) So unless it was some special 'Slytherins Only' breakfast we weren't told about, he definitely told the whole school.

It is Hagrid that says that Snape told the Slytherrins.

Blimey, haven' yeh heard? said Hagrid, his smile fading a little. He lowered his voice, even though there was nobody in sight. 'Er - Snape told all the Slytherins this mornin'...thought everyone'd know by now...Professor Lupin's a Werewolf, see....'



Finally, we know Snape made an attempt to save Lupin's life in DH. This is a circumstance the inclines me towards more favorable interpretations of details left ambiguous by PoA.
:agree:

If as you say, Snape couldn't have done anything under Dumbledore's nose, then surely that would also include handing Lupin to the Dementors on Hogwarts grounds.

Dumbledore did not know what was going on down in the shack at that moment. He is many thing but being omniscient is not included in the list.

I agree with arithmancer that this was an idle threat by Snape. I think he made it as a way to scare and intimidate both Lupin and Sirius, and it worked.

Very nasty threat and IMO entirely unwarrented.

Indeed he could be nasty, but there were reasons behind his actions than just simple nastiness. As others have already pointed out he knew Remus could transform into a Werewolf and was therefore a danger to everyone. He also at the time had every reason to believe that Remus had been assisting Sirius, who he and the rest of the wizarding world believed was a murderer. And, that Sirius was out to get Harry.

The trouble with this is Snape's own words and actions. He is out of control. Now I know he thinks he has reasons but what differance does that make to a hill of beans. Sirius and Remus also have their reasons, Harry, Hermione and Ron have their reasons. They all have their reasons for being there, Snape is not alone in having reasons both good and bad for being there, Snape is the one acting like he is the only one whose reasons matter. I think too much slack is being cut here for Snape. The WW does not revolve around Snape and his personal pain and recriminations. IMO.


I do believe that Snape went down to the Shack for what he thought was good reasons. It would have been preferable if he could have thought to take the Potion with him. It would have been the work of a second to tranform the goblet into a flask, but just like Remus he probably forgot in the heat of the moment, but I don't think it was his finest hour. He lost it completely. He heard a good bit of the conversation between the Trio and Sirius and Remus.
In fact he heard Remus' entire confession, He heard but IMO he didn't listen.

One of the things I always liked about Remus was that he never blamed Snape for anything and he kept an open mind about him. At the Burrows, during the Christmas scene he speaks to Harry about Snape and says that while he was at Hogwarts Snape brewed the Potion for him and how grateful he was to him for it.

Dumbledore did not know what was going on down in the shack at that moment. He is many thing but being omniscient is not included in the list.

He doesn't need to be omniscient as he would have found out after the event.

Very nasty threat and IMO entirely unwarrented.
Yes, it was.

They all have their reasons for being there, Snape is not alone in having reasons both good and bad for being there, Snape is the one acting like he is the only one whose reasons matter. I think too much slack is being cut here for Snape. The WW does not revolve around Snape and his personal pain and recriminations. IMO

Of course the other characters have their reasons, but as this is the Snape thread it will naturally revolve mostly around Snape. Snape's reasons include protecting Harry and catching an escaped murderer, these are his priorities, which is why I think he does not stop to listen to the others.

He doesn't need to be omniscient as he would have found out after the event.

Yes, it was.

Of course the other characters have their reasons, but as this is the Snape thread it will naturally revolve mostly around Snape. Snape's reasons include protecting Harry and catching an escaped murderer, these are his priorities, which is why he does not stop to listen to the others.

I have always thought the Snape thread was to discuss Snape, his motivations, reasons and how his charactor works, both good and bad aspects. Snape has many aspects from both side of the spectrum but he does not operate in a vacumm. His charactor is defined by how he reacts to others, for good and bad, I am not lecturing, please don't think that and if it sounds like I am, I'm sorry but I can't just agree that in this instance there are justifiable reasons for Snape's actions. I think he was wrong and his reasons are not enough justification.

Let's not get personal in here guys. Some may have differing views. Just please keep things civil.

Back to discussing Snape's character please.

I have always thought the Snape thread was to discuss Snape, his motivations, reasons and how his charactor works, both good and bad aspects. Snape has many aspects from both side of the spectrum but he does not operate in a vacumm.

I completely agree. I certainly don't see Snape as a saint, he can be one nasty piece of work when he wants to be.

His charactor is defined by how he reacts to others, for good and bad, I am not lecturing, please don't think that and if it sounds like I am, I'm sorry but I can't just agree that in this instance there are justifiable reasons for Snape's actions. I think he was wrong and his reasons are not enough justification.

Fair enough! I just happen see this in a very different way to you, you do not have to agree.

:huggles: I know. :lol:

:huggles:

He made that threat, but I very much doubt he would have carried it out. Sirius was a convicted fugitive from justice that Snape could do such a thing to (and probably collect an Order of Merlin for...) but not Lupin. Personally I think it was an idle threat.



If it were simply a threat. Then I don't really understand the reason behind it. I believe that every threat must have a good reason behind. For instance one might threat to gain a piece of valuable information, force someone to confess and tell the truth, etc. In that situation I don't really see any point to that threat. Why was then Snape threatening Lupin? What did he want him to say or do? Lupin's situation was unchangeable. There was nothing he could say or do to satisfy Snape. He was actually telling the truth and it was Snape who wasn't accepting it. I don't really get your point of view. To me it is either a pointless threat, or not a threat in the first place. Which is what I tend to believe. I believe that Snape's intention was clear when saying he'd let the Dementors kiss both Sirius and Lupin, if not for the trio's interference in the right moment.

Lupin did not plead. He asked insistently, and then insulted Snape:

"Severus --" Lupin began, but Snape overrode him.

"I've told the headmaster again and again that you're helping your old friend Black into the castle, Lupin, and here's the proof. Not even I dreamed you would have the nerve to use this old place as your hideout --"

"Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry --"

"Two more for Azkaban tonight," said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically. "I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this.... He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin... a tame werewolf --"

"You fool," said Lupin softly. "Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?"



I'm not trying to turn this into a warzone (to quote Moriath's exact words :lol:) but wasn't it Snape who actually insulted Lupin first. He called him 'tame werewolf'. Which was also painful prejudice toward Lupin. While I don't approve of Lupin's insult to Snape. I think he had a good reason for it. As he believed that Snape was going to hand him and Sirius to the Dementors, despite being innocent. Someone who was about to be kissed by a dementor surely wouldn't be in their right mind. Jmo.

Maybe Sev thought he might get a Merlin for feeding him the potion as well? :huh:


I really doubt that. If I understand the whole Order of Merlin thing correctly, then I don't think Snape really considered that thought. I think the Order of Merlin is given by authorities i.e Minister of Magic. And at this stage no one apart from Dumbledore and the other staff members were aware of Lupin's lycanthropy. They only knew when Snape let slip that he was a werewolf in front of the kids. So I don't think that this was Snape's motive when he went to give Lupin his potion. Just my interpretation.


So, you see, Professor wasn't the only one... reluctant to hear Lupin out. The only reason the Trio decided to give him a chance to speak was him mentioning the Marauders and their map.



Actually the trio agreed to listen when Lupin handed them their wands. That was when they started considering the fact that Sirius and Lupin might be telling the truth. Snape on the other hand wasn't willing to listen even when both Lupin and Sirius were in a wandless state.

Fair enough! I just happen see this in a very different way to you, you do not have to agree.

I believe that, that specific subject we're talking about, if seen with logic(no, I don't say you don't have logic, I just say what I believe :lol:) it is based not in opinions or ways that some people see it and some others see it different, but it is based in facts. To me, that subject needs to be based in facts, not in opinions. I mean, it happened, or it happened not. It doesn't matter what someone believes, cuz it just happened. To me, Snape had reason to do what he did, and it doesn't really matter what the others say, cuz in the book it was written that he had, so that's the end, he had. :relax:

My opinion of course. I don't want to offend you. :)

I believe that, that specific subject we're talking about, if seen with logic(no, I don't say you don't have logic, I just say what I believe :lol:) it is based not in opinions or ways that some people see it and some others see it different, but it is based in facts. To me, that subject needs to be based in facts, not in opinions. I mean, it happened, or it happened not. It doesn't matter what someone believes, cuz it just happened. To me, Snape had reason to do what he did, and it doesn't really matter what the others say, cuz in the book it was written that he had, so that's the end, he had. :relax:

My opinion of course. I don't want to offend you. :)

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at?

I understand that we all interpret the text with it's given facts very differently as you can see by looking through this thread.

In this instance we know that Severus knew Lupin was a Werewolf who hadn't taken his potion, and that like all the wizarding world believed Sirius was an escaped murderer and was out to kill Harry. Both to me are good enuogh reasons for Snape to not stop and listen to explanations. Others might not agree with me, that's ok!

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at?

I understand that we all interpret the text with it's given facts very differently as you can see by looking through this thread.

In this instance we know that Severus knew Lupin was a Werewolf who hadn't taken his potion, and that like all the wizarding world believed Sirius was an escaped murderer and was out to kill Harry. Both to me are good enuogh reasons for Snape to not stop and listen to explanations. Others might not agree with me, that's ok!

What I want to say is, well... give me a second...
I saw a post above, which said that he/she doesn't agree that Snape had reasons to do what he did. And he/she hadn't any reasons why to believe that. And I want to say that, when in the book is written that he had reasons for everything that he did, you can't just ignore it and say "I believe he hadn't". In that specific situation people can't have opinions, they just read what J.K. has to say. I mean... ugh... anyway, I think you understood... :sigh:

What I want to say is, well... give me a second...
I saw a post above, which said that he/she doesn't agree that Snape had reasons to do what he did. And he/she hadn't any reasons why to believe that. And I want to say that, when in the book is written that he had reasons for everything that he did, you can't just ignore it and say "I believe he hadn't". In that specific situation people can't have opinions, they just read what J.K. has to say. I mean... ugh... anyway, I think you understood... :sigh:

Are you saying that you don't think it is a matter of opinion but a fact that Snape had reasons for acting the way he did, because JKR wrote his reasons into the series?

(not trying to have a go or anything just trying to worlk out if I understand what you've said :))

While I don't approve of Lupin's insult to Snape. I think he had a good reason for it. As he believed that Snape was going to hand him and Sirius to the Dementors, despite being innocent. Someone who was about to be kissed by a dementor surely wouldn't be in their right mind. Jmo.

Snape hadn't threatened anyone with the Dementors by this time. In fact he doesn't do so until after Sirius provokes him.

A few sparks shot out of the end of his wand which was still pointing at Black's face. Hermione fell silent.
'Vengence is sweet,' Snape breathed at Black. 'How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...'
'The joke's on you again, Severus' snarled Black. 'As long as this boy brings his rat up to the castle -' he jerked his head at Ron,' - I'll come quietly...'
'Up to the castle?' said Snape silkily, 'I don't think we need go that far. All I have to do is call the Demantors once we get out of the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black... pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay...'
What little colour there was in Black's face left it.

Are you saying that you don't think it is a matter of opinion but a fact that Snape had reasons for acting the way he did, because JKR wrote his reasons into the series?

(not trying to have a go or anything just trying to worlk out if I understand what you've said :))

Exactly! :D Omg, thanks! I'm not good at expressing my opinions... :blush:

No probs TonksA :)

Its difficult because while Severus does have some clear cannon reasoning for his actions - they are not stated as fact in this scene, or even in The Princes Tale (TPT). However if one looks at TPT I think we can workout his motivation but because it is not explicitly stated in cannon but has to be deduced from cannon - I think a lot of people talk in terms of their opinion as not everyone one agrees with the deductions other people make from cannon.

*wonder's if she makes any sense at all!* :lol:

No, no it makes sense! :lol:
I just think it can be easily understood by everyone that when you have the whole school teasing you, then the girl who you love leaves you for your enemy, and having a poor family and 2 "not-so-good parents", then, to me, it's absolutely logical to grow up and behave like that. How can they expect Snape to be good and nice while he was grown up with the worst way?

No, no it makes sense! :lol:
I just think it can be easily understood by everyone that when you have the whole school teasing you, then the girl who you love leaves you for your enemy, and having a poor family and 2 "not-so-good parents", then, to me, it's absolutely logical to grow up and behave like that. How can they expect Snape to be good and nice while he was grown up with the worst way?

Personally I agree with you - but things can get very.... confrontational here at times and not everyone would agree with your view.

So unless we can back up our statments with direct cannon eveidence it tends to be safer to put in a lot of imo (in my opinion)

Try reading through how to have a pleasant conversation (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) - not that your conversation isn't pleasant but it puts it all more clearly that I do :)

Personally I agree with you - but things can get very.... confrontational here at times and not everyone would agree with your view.

So unless we can back up our statments with direct cannon eveidence it tends to be safer to put in a lot of imo (in my opinion)

Try reading through how to have a pleasant conversation (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108019) - not that your conversation isn't pleasant but it puts it all more clearly that I do :)

I suppose you're right...:blush:
Thanks...:D

Snape really couldn't keep Lupin's secret to Fudge because Harry and Hermione had been attacked by Dementors, they had Sirius Black in custody, and Ron had a broken leg.

I don't have any problem with Snape telling Fudge what happened; mostly because Fudge already knew about Lupin's lycanthropy. In GoF after Voldemort returns, Fudge tells Dumbledore that "not many people would have let you hire a werewolf", from which I gather that Dumbledore made everything clear to Fudge when he appointed Lupin for the post, and Fudge, still respecting Dumbledore at that point, agreed. Of course Snape would have to let the authorities know what transpired; what I was mainly talking about was Snape's "accidental" slip at breakfast, which was nothing less than mean-spiritied; if, as you say, Lupin was already out of a job before breakfast that morning, there was absolutely no reason to expose him so cruelly to the entire population of the school.

Actually the trio agreed to listen when Lupin handed them their wands. That was when they started considering the fact that Sirius and Lupin might be telling the truth. Snape on the other hand wasn't willing to listen even when both Lupin and Sirius were in a wandless state.

Exactly what I was trying to point out. The trio believed themselves in mortal danger from two crazed maniacs, of course they weren't going to listen. Snape was holding all the cards when he came into the room, and in my opinion nothing Lupin could have said or done would have made him listen; revenge, as he put it himself, was far too sweet.

The trio believed themselves in mortal danger from two crazed maniacs, of course they weren't going to listen.

And what might have Severus thought a convicted murderer and a werewolf out on a full moon were going to do to him? Gather him in their arms and declare brotherhood to their last breath? :huh:

Snape was holding all the cards when he came into the room, and in my opinion nothing Lupin could have said or done would have made him listen; revenge, as he put it himself, was far too sweet.

The line you are quoting was reserved for Black, whom Severus at that point still considered responsible for Potters' outing. To which, if my memory serves me well, Black responds with 'The joke's on you again, Severus'...

I can only think of one 'joke' that involved all three of them and, again, that particular memory does nothing to garner Snape's benevolence.

Before Snape binds him Lupin calls him 'a fool' with 'a schoolboy grudge', referring to the time Black tried to get him killed by sending him off to the Shack while fully transformed Lupin was inside. If that is indeed what the aforementioned incident was, I feel compelled to write off this particular incident as 'an adult's grudge'.

After all, both Lupin and Black survived... didn't they? :relax:

What I want to say is, well... give me a second...
I saw a post above, which said that he/she doesn't agree that Snape had reasons to do what he did. And he/she hadn't any reasons why to believe that. And I want to say that, when in the book is written that he had reasons for everything that he did, you can't just ignore it and say "I believe he hadn't". In that specific situation people can't have opinions, they just read what J.K. has to say. I mean... ugh... anyway, I think you understood... :sigh:

Well that was me and what I meant was that, yes Snape had his reasons for acting the way he did. Of course he had his reasons but I simply don't think they were enough. As I said everyone has their reasons for acting as they did, but can those reasons be justified. Yes Snape had it tough growing up, so do a lot of people. That does not justify joining an orginisation dedicated to racial cleansing. I know he left it and changed but I have never been too impressed by Snape's reasons for leaving. I can understand when people say that he should not be held to account for his actions when he was young, but then I read the same posters saying that James should be held to account for SWM and the truly terrible bullying he does there. I can't do that. If I hold James to account for his actions at age 15, (and I do) I have to hold Snape to account for his actions age 18-21/22. The only differance to me is that we are never shown Snape's actions as a DE but we are shown James' worst moment. We are told however what the DE's did and to say that Snape somehow kept to the high moral ground as one, is to me at least, ludicrous. DE's have no moral grounds. We are shown in no uncertain terms just what they do and during the first war did. Ans Snape was one.

Now does this mean I think Snape a terrible charactor? No it does not. My take on it is that he redeemed himself and it was by no means easy. For me if Snape had never done wrong then what is his purpose? Isn't he there to show that even if you have erred in the worst possible way it is possible to stop and turn yuorself around? I feel this is something that DD understood. Afterall he had his own demons from the past and could relate to Snape. It is all too easy in my opinion not to blame Snape for his past. I tend to acknowledge that past and forgive him. I don't like his truly horrendous acts, but I like him as an example of someone who can inspire someone to do better.

To get back to the scene in POA, yes Snape had his reasons for his actions. So did everyone in that room and some of them had more reason to be there than Snape, Snape IMO was dealing with a whole lot of guilt in that scene. He knew he was the one who passed on the Prophecy. He knew he had passed the Prophecy on with no thought as to who would die for his action.
he knew that if anyone else besides Lily had been targetted he would not have lifted a finger to save her. Snape is not justified in anything he does in this scene. If Remus forgot to take his potion, Snape forgets he even has it in his hand. If Remus is wrong not to disclose everything to DD, Snape is wrong to disclose Remus as a werewolf to the school. Not Snape's finest hour or day.

I don't have any problem with Snape telling Fudge what happened; mostly because Fudge already knew about Lupin's lycanthropy. In GoF after Voldemort returns, Fudge tells Dumbledore that "not many people would have let you hire a werewolf", from which I gather that Dumbledore made everything clear to Fudge when he appointed Lupin for the post, and Fudge, still respecting Dumbledore at that point, agreed.
Yes, but it was contingent on Lupin taking the Werewolf Potion every month, and Dumbledore knew he could count on Snape to make it correctly. And since Snape had definitely made the potion that night, he kept his part of the bargain, while Lupin . . . didn't.

Why does Snape get blamed for this, except that Harry likes Lupin better than he likes Snape? It doesn't change the facts of what happened, or the fact that Lupin was out the door due to his own choices.

what I was mainly talking about was Snape's "accidental" slip at breakfast, which was nothing less than mean-spiritied; if, as you say, Lupin was already out of a job before breakfast that morning, there was absolutely no reason to expose him so cruelly to the entire population of the school.

He just told them the truth. And the way things are explained in the books about Hogwarts, the ghosts or Peeves would have told everyone by nightfall anyway, in my opinion. Everyone would have wanted to know where Lupin went.

He just told them the truth.

The truth - let us not forget - which Dumbledore kept hidden to the point of letting the previous incident go unpunished and making Snape look like the one at fault. Had Lupin resigned on his own (a far-fetched assumption, that, in case there were no repercussions to his not taking the potion), with only rumours to account for that night's happenings, Severus would have found himself exactly where he was a couple of decades before: playing the sacrificial lamb to Lupin's 'furry little problem'.

I honestly can't think of a single reason for him to keep his mouth shut at that point. :no:

The truth - let us not forget - which Dumbledore kept hidden to the point of letting the previous incident go unpunished and making Snape look like the one at fault. Had Lupin resigned on his own (a far-fetched assumption, that, in case there were no repercussions to his not taking the potion), with only rumours to account for that night's happenings, Severus would have found himself exactly where he was a couple of decades before: playing the sacrificial lamb to Lupin's 'furry little problem'.

I honestly can't think of a single reason for him to keep his mouth shut at that point. :no:

Well IMO Snape carried his own fair share of the blame for the Werewolf incident. He knowingly broke the school rules by going down to th Whomping Willow and attempting to try and spy. He does not come out of the incident blameless by any means. Snape could never be called a scracrificial lamb under any circumstances. He could be referedt to as many things but not IMO a a sacrificial lamb.
Lupin resigned because it was a case of go before your shoved. The reason he would have been shoved was because Snape told Slytherin students he was a werewolf. Did he do this with DD approval, I don't think so. IMO a good reason for him to keep his mouth shut would have been common decency, after all DD never spread it around who was responsible for telling LV about the Prophecy. I would have thought that Snape could have learned a little about mercy from that.

IMO there is no way to make Snape look good in the POA. His finest hour comes at the end of GOF and HBP.

In the third book Harry goes " so that's why Snape hates you? Because he thinks you were in on the joke?"
And Snape goes "that's right "
Does that mean he heard the whole story? Or just Harry's question?
Because if he did it's just a bit more unreasonable to let it "accidentally" slip that he was a werewolf right?

What do you mean by "the whole story", the story about Peter being a rat and still being alive, or about the Animagi? He heard the latter, but not the former. There is a moment in the conversation with Lupin and Sirius that the Trio hear the door creak - this is when Snape came into the room (under the invivibilisy cloak).

um, one more thing i was'nt clear about.Was Snape one of the top death Eaters when he told Voldemort the prophecy?Because if he was, would'nt he have known Sirius wasnt "the spy"? Wouldnt he have found out?
Don't get me wrong i love Snape but still.

We are not told what his status was. I personally think it is logical that no matter how high his status was, he would not have been told about Sirius/Peter. This is because Voldemort had him spying on DUmbledore, apparently. When one has two spies in the same place who don't know about each other, it keeps them both honest. I think this sort of reasoning would appeal to Voldemort, who trusts no one.

I also think there was no way Snape knew, because if he did, he would have told Dumbledore in order to save Lily's life. I don't think after the final book that there is any support for a theory that he did not care that much about whether she lived or died.

In that situation I don't really see any point to that threat. Why was then Snape threatening Lupin?

Seriously, because Lupin insulted him and Sirius followed up. He was being nasty right back to them. Being angry at someone is reason enough. In other words, I agree with the option "it was a pointless threat". People do make them all the time, particualrly when they are emotional, whcih Snape certainly was at the time.

He called him 'tame werewolf'. Which was also painful prejudice toward Lupin.

Sure, Lupin had his own reasons for not liking Snape and getting angry as well. On the other hand, Snape insulted him because he thought Lupin was a bad guy who was helping "mass-murderer, traitor" Sirius and endangering Harry.

While I don't approve of Lupin's insult to Snape. I think he had a good reason for it. As he believed that Snape was going to hand him and Sirius to the Dementors, despite being innocent.

Lupin insulted Snape before Snape made any threat to take Lupin to the Dementors. "Two more for Azkaban" is a threat to turn Lupin in to the Ministry (for the crime of being Sirius's accomplice/helper), not to drag him to the Dementors.

Actually the trio agreed to listen when Lupin handed them their wands. That was when they started considering the fact that Sirius and Lupin might be telling the truth. Snape on the other hand wasn't willing to listen even when both Lupin and Sirius were in a wandless state.

The act of a person with a wand handing it over, is a powerful demonstration of good faith. No such demonstration was extended to Snape in this scene, so I find his different reaction reasonable.

Sure, Lupin had his own reasons for not liking Snape and getting angry as well. On the other hand, Snape insulted him because he thought Lupin was a bad guy who was helping "mass-murderer, traitor" Sirius and endangering Harry.

Lupin insulted Snape before Snape made any threat to take Lupin to the Dementors. "Two more for Azkaban" is a threat to turn Lupin in to the Ministry (for the crime of being Sirius's accomplice/helper), not to drag him to the Dementors.

The act of a person with a wand handing it over, is a powerful demonstration of good faith. No such demonstration was extended to Snape in this scene, so I find his different reaction reasinable.

Nope, I think Lupin was right on the money. 'A schoolboy grudge' had a lot to do with Snape's actions that night. I think Snape was a seething mass of schoolboy emotions, The grudge, Lily's death, guilt, frustrations and anger were boiling over. Lupin and Sirius were standing there without their wands and I think he totally lost it. Never before and never again would he have them in that situation and like he said, to his mind vengeance was sweet. It's interesting that Harry who one would think had more emotional investment was the one who was acting like an adult.

Why does Snape get blamed for this, except that Harry likes Lupin better than he likes Snape?

I feel it is because of the far-reaching implications that it would have on Lupin. It was a juicy bit of gossip (Lupin the werewolf had been allowed to teach at Hogwarts) that was quickly disseminated not just to Slytherin parents as Lupin noted would happen, but also to the other students as well (as seen when Harry was broached by his fellow classmates). I think Snape understood the social and economical reprecussions for Lupin when a far larger number of people in the wizard world became aware of his condition.

IMO there is no way to make Snape look good in the POA.
How about taking four comotose people back to the castle on stretchers? Snape was in danger that night, too, but he didn't run away from the werewolf before he helped others.

How about Snape wanting to keep Harry in the castle so he wouldn't be in danger in the first place?

I feel it is because of the far-reaching implications that it would have on Lupin. It was a juicy bit of gossip (Lupin the werewolf had been allowed to teach at Hogwarts) that was quickly disseminated not just to Slytherin parents as Lupin noted would happen, but also to the other students as well (as seen when Harry was broached by his fellow classmates). I think Snape understood the social and economical reprecussions for Lupin when a far larger number of people in the wizard world became aware of his condition.
Fudge and Lucius were thick as thieves at that point, which is plain from the story of Buckbeak. Fudge would have told him anyway.

ETA: Snape really had no choice but to tell the Slytherins, if Lucius was going to be told anyway, especially considering the fact that Draco was afraid of Werewolves. Snape couldn't appear to be putting Draco in danger by hiding Lupin's secret.

I can't blame Snape for the prejudices of the entire Wizarding World. Ron for instance doesn't learn to fear werewolves from Snape.

He knowingly broke the school rules by going down to th Whomping Willow and attempting to try and spy.

I thought the Marauders were students at the same time as Severus was. Or were they exempt from school rules for some reason? :huh:

Snape could never be called a scracrificial lamb under any circumstances.

I agree. It would be sure to garner a most unflattering rejoinder.

The reason he would have been shoved was because Snape told Slytherin students he was a werewolf.

False. The reason he would have been 'shoved' is because he was a werewolf teacher who consciously disregarded the safety measures imposed on him as a prerequisite to his employment.

Or perhaps Lupin was to be exempt from following the rules... again?

IMO a good reason for him to keep his mouth shut would have been common decency, after all DD never spread it around who was responsible for telling LV about the Prophecy.

Common decency had nothing to do with Headmaster's decision to keep that particular piece of information to himself. He needed Severus in (relatively) good graces with his allies if he was to continue using him as a spy. Revealing Snape's involvement in that incident would completely ruin his plans.

I would have thought that Snape could have learned a little about mercy from that.

The only true act of mercy Snape ever received from Dumbledore was not being killed on that hilltop... In my opinion, of course.

IMO there is no way to make Snape look good in the POA. His finest hour comes at the end of GOF and HBP.

I have absolutely no desire to make anyone 'look good' (or otherwise). That is the author's job. I do, however, reserve my right to rationalize my own opinion of certain (re)actions.

How about taking four comotose people back to the castle on stretchers? Snape was in danger that night, too, but he didn't run away from the werewolf before he helped others.

The werewolf was long gone at that point and taking the injured back to the Castle was only what one would expect of anybody. Snape did his duty as a human, nothing more. I do take your point he could have been in danger but I'm bearing in mind he was a very skilled wizard, I'd back him against a werewolf any day or night.

How about Snape wanting to keep Harry in the castle so he wouldn't be in danger in the first place?

Didn't all the teachers do this?

Fudge and Lucius were thick as thieves at that point, which is plain from the story of Buckbeak. Fudge would have told him anyway.

ETA: Snape really had no choice but to tell the Slytherins, if Lucius was going to be told anyway, especially considering the fact that Draco was afraid of Werewolves. Snape couldn't appear to be putting Draco in danger by hiding Lupin's secret.

I can't blame Snape for the prejudices of the entire Wizarding World. Ron for instance doesn't learn to fear werewolves from Snape

We don't know what Fudge would have told Lucius or not, my point is what Fudge may or may not have done does not excuse Snape. As many people have brought up the position was cursed, Lupin would be leaving anyway and Draco would have been safe from any danger from Lupin. I don't blame Snape for the WW's predjudices. I just don't excuse him for what I see are his faults. I don't blame him for being a lessar man than he could have been in this book. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes, I think he made a lot of mistakes in this book. I alsp think he made up for them later.

ETA: Snape really had no choice but to tell the Slytherins, if Lucius was going to be told anyway, especially considering the fact that Draco was afraid of Werewolves. Snape couldn't appear to be putting Draco in danger by hiding Lupin's secret.

You have insisted in this and previous posts that Snape informed *only* the Slytherins of Lupin's lycanthropy for noble reasons..... However, as I have quoted, all that is stated in the books (and thus, all that is canon) is that Snape "accidentally" (showing that he was trying to get back at Lupin while avoiding responsibility for going against Dumbledore's specific orders) told the entire school at breakfast. Draco and Lucius have nothing at all to do with it; there is nothing in the text to suggest that Draco's safety was a contributing factor in any sense.

Lupin insulted Snape before Snape made any threat to take Lupin to the Dementors.

Hmmmm.... Really? Snape was holding an unarmed man at the Wizarding equivalent of gun-point and making insulting, racist comments to him while refusing to listen to a repeatedly proffered explanation. Lupin responded with a quiet statement about Snape's motivations, which hit home....why? Because it was true! Snape was acting on a twenty-year-old grudge, and he really gave himself away dreadfully with the comment about sweet revenge; he's acting out of a thirst for personal vengeance, and not from a wish to see justice done. I am quite sure that he would happily have turned Sirius and Lupin over to the dementors, regardless of whether they were able to convince him of their innocence- but then, he didn't even give then a chance to! He acted severely unbalanced all through that eventful night (even Fudge commented on it) and I seriously doubt that this stemmed from a law-abiding desire to bring a criminal to justice. The long and short of it was that Snape hated Sirius and Lupin, and was willing to see them dead or worse because of a grudge held over two decades.

The werewolf was long gone at that point and taking the injured back to the Castle was only what one would expect of anybody. Snape did his duty as a human, nothing more. I do take your point he could have been in danger but I'm bearing in mind he was a very skilled wizard, I'd back him against a werewolf any day or night.

But you wrote earlier that nothing about Snape seemed good in PoA, and I'm just disagreeing. ;) To me, he reacted out of fear for Harry's life, and that's a good thing.

Nope, I think Lupin was right on the money. 'A schoolboy grudge' had a lot to do with Snape's actions that night. I think Snape was a seething mass of schoolboy emotions, The grudge, Lily's death, guilt, frustrations and anger were boiling over.
Lupin was wrong that it was just about a schoolboy grudge, imo. It was really about Sirius betraying Lily, so Lupin was wrong in dismissing Snape as petty. He had the same reasons for attacking Sirius that Harry did minutes before.

However, as I have quoted, all that is stated in the books (and thus, all that is canon) is that Snape "accidentally" (showing that he was trying to get back at Lupin while avoiding responsibility for going against Dumbledore's specific orders) told the entire school at breakfast.

From all that is canon:

"Blimey, haven' yeh heard? said Hagrid, his smile fading a little. He lowered his voice, even though there was nobody in sight. "Er - Snape told all the Slytherins this mornin'... thought everyone'd know by now..."

The other one - straight from the werewolf's mouth, if you'll pardon my expression - does not mention 'entire school' either:

"Why?" said Harry. "The Ministry of Magic don't think you were helping Sirius, do they?"

Lupin crossed to the door and closed it behind Harry.

"No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he -- er -accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast."

I am of opinion that the best way 'to get back at Lupin while avoiding responsibility for going against Dumbledore's specific orders' would be to muck up on the Wolfsbane potion. If getting back was Snape's goal and he was ready to face Dumbledore's displeasure (as his 'accidental' revelation seems to imply), there was no valid reason to wait until the end of school year...

ETA: The long and short of it was that Snape hated Sirius and Lupin, and wad willing to see them dead or worse because of a grudge held over two decades.

I seem to recall quite a few books after PoA in which Sirius and Lupin survive their meetings with Snape. Or have I mixed up my series? Hmm...

But you wrote earlier that nothing about Snape seemed good in PoA, and I'm just disagreeing. ;) To me, he reacted out of fear for Harry's life, and that's a good thing.


Lupin was wrong that it was just about a schoolboy grudge, imo. It was really about Sirius betraying Lily, so Lupin was wrong in dismissing Snape as petty. He had the same reasons for attacking Sirius that Harry did minutes before.

I just can't see it. Lily's death played into it, but IMO Snape used that as an excuse. How could he blameSirius without acknowledging to himself that he also had blame in that episode? I think on the surface he was using Lily but underneath he was attacking Sirius and Remus because of the old grudge. He wasn't telling the Trio to get out because Remus hadn't taken his potion, he was too busy telling Sirius 'revenge was sweet'. I do believe he was simply not in control, everything just boiled up and he lost it. To me nothing about the scene in the Shack, even with hindsight provided by TPT, justifies his actions. When he came to outside and found himself with the injured he did act responsably, but so would anyone. And I have never denied he was a very skilled wizard.

It all goes back in my mind to motivation. If he had truly been motivated for the Trio and capturing Sirius the obvious thing to do would be to get reinforcements. Especially as he knew Remus had not taken his potion.Does he do this? No, he runs out of the castle after Remus and then uses Harry's cloak to eavesdrop on what is being said. This just does not strike me as being rational, and Snape is usually very rational.

To me the only thing that makes sense is that his emotions simply went haywire and he lost it. Not a crime but not great in the circumstances either. The Trio recognise this when they knock him out. Something Hermione would never have been a perty to under other conditions.

I see Snape's comment to Sirius, " Vengence is very sweet" as meaning vengence for Sirius selling out the Potters which resulted in Lily's death, not the schoolboy grudge Lupin refers to. We see in TPT just how much Lily meant to Snape and I can't see a schoolboy grudge being considered more important than the murder of someone you love. Yes, Snape played his part in that by handing over the prophecy, which he deeply regretted. But the consequent safegaurds put in place to protect the Potters should have kept Lily safe if they hadn't been sold out by their friend. And the wizarding world all believed that person to be Sirius.
I think the "schoolboy grudge" comment is put there by JKR as a red herring to throw us off the scent. Because if we weren't given an alternative reason for the animosity between Snape and Sirius, we would have been wondering why Snape was so emotional, and it was far too early in the story to be giving away such clues.

No Treacle, I understand where you're coming from. I'm just not buying it. For me there's something very off and I smelt it even more after I read TPT. But that's my way of thinking and I respect yours's so let's agree to disagree.
I love your name, but then like Harry I love treacle tart. I think I'll make one this weekend. Treat the grandkids.

For me if Snape had never done wrong then what is his purpose? Isn't he there to show that even if you have erred in the worst possible way it is possible to stop and turn yuorself around?I agree completely. Snape's character goes to show you that even if you have done terrible things, you can still redeem yourself and change who you are for the better. Though I believe he would never have changed if Lily hadn't been targeted by Voldemort, I think it's still extremely important that he did change in the end, and that he devoted his life to bringing down Voldemort. :tu: I respect him for his actions during his time as a double agent.I see Snape's comment to Sirius, " Vengence is very sweet" as meaning vengence for Sirius selling out the Potters which resulted in Lily's death, not the schoolboy grudge Lupin refers to.This interpretation hadn't occurred to me. I think it may have played some part in Snape's thoughts that night. However I believe Snape was primarily thinking of his own personal vengeance at this moment. The reason I believe this is because he then says to Sirius, "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...." To me, this indicates that he was thinking about how sweet it was to be the one to personally catch Sirius and bring him to justice. I agree that any mention of Lily at this point would be revealing too much too soon, but I believe that if avenging Lily was foremost in his mind, Snape may have said something indicating that Sirius would be brought into custody to answer for his crimes instead of saying he was glad to be the one to catch him. That's why in this particular instance, I tend to believe he was primarily enjoying having the upper hand against one of his former tormentors (though that's not to say he wasn't thinking at all about avenging Lily, I just think it wasn't his primary motivation in that scene). But of course, my view is just one alternative.

Just a general observation about the Shrieking Shack scene: stepping outside the story for a moment, I think all the adults in this scene go haywire to varying extents so that Harry can have an adult moment to do what's right and shine through all the strong emotions that are flying around.

As far as Snape telling students that Lupin was a werewolf; he merely told them the truth, rather than let rumor take over and perhaps build into something well beyond the truth. I see a clear parallel between this and Dumbledore's decision to tell the students what really happened to Cedric.
"It is my belief, however, that the truth is generally preferable to lies..."
Snape's not mentioning that Lupin was a werewolf previously was a lie by omission only, and clearly at Dumbledore's orders. However, it seems clear to me that rumors would have been flying about the school the morning after Lupin transformed, and the best thing for Snape to do (imo) would have been to tell the unvarnished truth in order to quell the rumors. As Hagrid said about noon that day
"Blimey, haven' yeh heard?" said Hagrid <snip> "...thought everyone'd know by now...

This interpretation hadn't occurred to me. I think it may have played some part in Snape's thoughts that night. However I believe Snape was primarily thinking of his own personal vengeance at this moment. The reason I believe this is because he then says to Sirius, "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...." To me, this indicates that he was thinking about how sweet it was to be the one to personally catch Sirius and bring him to justice. I agree that any mention of Lily at this point would be revealing too much too soon, but I believe that if avenging Lily was foremost in his mind, Snape may have said something indicating that Sirius would be brought into custody to answer for his crimes instead of saying he was glad to be the one to catch him. That's why in this particular instance, I tend to believe he was primarily enjoying having the upper hand against one of his former tormentors (though that's not to say he wasn't thinking at all about avenging Lily, I just think it wasn't his primary motivation in that scene). But of course, my view is just one alternative.

I wouldn't say that Snape was enjoying himself at all in the Shack. I think he was just as freaked out by seeing Sirius as Harry was, and that just doesn't make sense if he is enjoying himself, in my opinion. He is nearly incoherent with rage.

The boyhood bullying by Sirius came long before the death of Lily, and this is grown-up Snape we are talking about, who spent his whole life dressed in black out of grief and mourning.

Having Lupin around that year had brought back the bad memories of childhood, but Snape's reaction to Sirius is quite different from the way he had been dealing with Lupin, which most of the time was cordial. If it had just been about childhood bullying, Snape might have said some sarcastic things but he was really getting personal with Sirius. The point is that if not for Sirius, Lily might have lived - or at least that's what Snape thought at the moment in the Shack. JMO.

I agree with Treacle that it's a red herring. JKR said many times in between PoA and DH that she couldn't give away too much about Snape, and that more was coming about Lily. Snape's Worst Memory is more of a clue, but nearly confirms the "boyhood grudge" charge again without totally giving away the Severus/Lily relationship.

So yes Snape had a grudge, but it was much more about Lily dying than just the bullying alone, in my opinion.

Snape is awesome!

And he will be awesome..."ALWAYS".

I wouldn't say that Snape was enjoying himself at all in the Shack. I think he was just as freaked out by seeing Sirius as Harry was, and that just doesn't make sense if he is enjoying himself, in my opinion. He is nearly incoherent with rage. You're right, "enjoy" is totally the wrong word. Perhaps "satisfaction" is more what I meant to say. And yes, he's definitely extremely angry.Having Lupin around that year had brought back the bad memories of childhood, but Snape's reaction to Sirius is quite different from the way he had been dealing with Lupin, which most of the time was cordial.You make a valid point. It couldn't have been easy to keep running into Lupin during the school year, especially given the fact that Lupin had the job he wanted (which I see as salt over an open wound for Snape). You're right, for the most part, Snape reserves his hatred for James and Sirius (which is reasonable, given that they were his primary enemies at school).If it had just been about childhood bullying, Snape might have said some sarcastic things but he was really getting personal with Sirius. The point is that if not for Sirius, Lily might have lived - or at least that's what Snape thought at the moment in the Shack. JMO.As I mentioned above, I agree that it wasn't 100% about the childhood bullying. I think the only thing we disagree on is how big a factor the childhood bullying was in that particular instance.

I seem to recall quite a few books after PoA in which Sirius and Lupin survive their meetings with Snape. Or have I mixed up my series? Hmm...

Well, of course Snape, after he had returned to rationality, wasn't about to attack either Sirius or Lupin under the nose of Dumbledore and the Order (I'm not even saying he would have, as others have pointed out, Snape kinda lost control that night in the Shrieking Shack). However, on that night he was facing Sirius and Lupin alone, and not under Dumbledore's protection, but unarmed, trapped, and in Sirius' case very weak; with no witnesses except three students whose evidence Snape could easily discount later, as indeed he did. I think seeing Lupin there with Sirius, the two of them defenseless, completely overcame his caution and reason and he just let his hatred boil over. So you see, the circumstances at the end of PoA and the circumstances in all the later books are simply too different to compare convincingly.

I am of opinion that the best way 'to get back at Lupin while avoiding responsibility for going against Dumbledore's specific orders' would be to muck up on the Wolfsbane potion. If getting back was Snape's goal and he was ready to face Dumbledore's displeasure (as his 'accidental' revelation seems to imply), there was no valid reason to wait until the end of school year...

How would Snape have looked if Lupin died or attacked a student because his potion wasn't brewed correctly? IMO,Snape told the student's about Lupin's condition because he was ticked off over not getting his way in the shack and afterward. That's why he waited till the end of the year-- The events in the shack acted as the trigger. He didn't do anything more serious, that may have caused someone physical harm, because Dumbledore would have found that even more unacceptable, to say the least. And, once Snape told the Slytherins about Lupin, there was absolutely nothing DD could do to stop the deluge of parents wanting Lupin sacked.

As far as Snape telling students that Lupin was a werewolf; he merely told them the truth, rather than let rumor take over and perhaps build into something well beyond the truth. I see a clear parallel between this and Dumbledore's decision to tell the students what really happened to Cedric.

IMO, Snape only told Slytherin house about Lupin's problem because he was especially mad over not getting his way that night in the shack. It seems likely that Snape telling the Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf would evolve into rumors, anyway. It also seems to me that it is far too coincidental that Snape's telling the truth would also result in the majority of Hogwarts parents wanting Lupin, a man that Snape detests, sacked.

Snape's telling Slytherins about Remus really has very little to do with Remus' having to leave Hogwarts.

The fact is Remus was running loose on school grounds in his werewolf form during the full moon when he should have taken his wolfsbane. HE is the one who is responsible for NOT taking his wolfsbane. HE is the one endangering anyone he might come across. And it isn't as if he hadn't had plenty of time to go take his medicine. Snape only brings it up to Remus' office because Remus had not gone to get it earlier and time was running out.

The Ministry cannot possibly allow Remus to remain there. Whether Snape tells anyone or not. Remus will HAVE to leave.

And where does that leave Snape if he doesn't tell the Slytherins?

There is much more going on here than JKR spells out to us.

1) Sirius has escaped - the Ministry is going to be searching the grounds for him immediately. It would be negligent to not do so.

2) There's a werewolf loose on the grounds. Those searching for Sirius would be endangered if they are not warned that while looking for Sirius they may be attacked by a werewolf.

3) Remus himself would be in great danger if the aurors go searching the school grounds (especially the Forbidden Forest) for Sirius and encounter Remus in his werewolf form. He had not taken his wolfsbane. He WOULD attack. And he would be 'put down' for doing so.

4) Therefore, even IF the Minister did not know Remus was a werewolf before, he MUST be told before he sends Aurours out to search for Sirius - as a safety measure for the Aurors AND for Remus.

5) Peter has escaped and Albus is well aware of a REAL prophecy made that day that implies Peter will run straight to Voldy. Peter is not only fully aware of Remus' werewolf status, but IF Voldy casts a legilimens on him he will see that Snape was in the Shack and knows full well that Remus was a werewolf.

6) The prophecy about Peter says that Voldy WILL be back. Therefore Albus WILL need Snape to go back to Voldy and he will also need a good 'working relationship' with as many of the DEs as possible to ensure the best sources of information. Now just how will he accomplish that when every single DE that had a child at Hogwarts at the time finds out that Snape KNEW Remus was a werewolf and did not TELL their precious children to beware? He can probably get away with pretending he didn't know until that night (and occlude the fact that he was making Remus' wolfsbane), but he cannot get away with not telling them the next morning.

7) Remus says he went to resign 'first thing' that morning. Considering he must reenter the castle from his night out - 'first thing' SHOULD mean on his way to his rooms BEFORE breakfast. NOT after I went to my rooms, had a shower, dressed, went to the Great Hall, sat there and ate my breakfast and only THEN getting up to wander over to Albus and resign because apparently all of Slytherin House is whispering about me.

At the very latest, 'first thing' means as soon as he see Albus at the breakfast table. And considering the fact that Remus was 'up' with the sunrise, he SOULD be at breakfast before most of the kids. Even if he DID go shower first.

In MY opinion: I think Snape had NO choice but to let Remus' secret out. It is necessary for his effectiveness as a spy in the near future. I honestly believe it is even with Albus' blessing that he let's the secret slip. I think there's a VERY good possibility that letting Remus' secret 'slip' is the beginning of Remus' cover for spying among the Werewolves in bk6. Any other usefulness Remus can be at Hogwarts is OVER. It's time to see how he can be of use in the future.

The Werewolves would not normally trust Remus without some kind of apparent 'break' with Albus. Being forced out of his job, with no new employment coming (because of the public nature of his 'outing') puts Remus into a position where the Werewolf pack will possibly accept him. It invents a cover story for him. I think Remus referred to himself as 'tailor-made' (paraphrased?) for the job.

Anyways - whether it set Remus' spying career up or not - I cannot see any possible way that Snape would be able to gain/keep the trust of any parents of his Slytherin charges if he does NOT give up Remus' secret. And he must have that trust (at least among those who are DEs) to be an effective spy.

Lastly - it is Remus that says that Snape's anger in the Shack is about a 'schoolboy grudge'. On the other hand - when everyone is more or less 'safe', what is it Snape yells at Harry about? He yells at him for trusting Sirius - just like James did - and how it got James (and Lily) killed. To me, it is obvious that - in Snape's OWN WORDS (not what Remus believes - but what Snape tells us himself) - his anger at Sirius is ALL about the death of the Potters. And that Snape believed that since Harry listened and trusted Sirius, then if Snape had not come along then Harry would also have died. Why should we believe Remus knows more about why Snape is angry than Snape knows himself? Especially when Snape tells us himself.

Excellent points, hwyla! :tu:
In MY opinion: I think Snape had NO choice but to let Remus' secret out. It is necessary for his effectiveness as a spy in the near future. I honestly believe it is even with Albus' blessing that he let's the secret slip. I agree completely. :agree:

How would Snape have looked if Lupin died or attacked a student because his potion wasn't brewed correctly?

That would depend on how he came by his ingredients. :relax:

But one thing is certain - Dumbledore would definitely not look good (to parents of his students, at least) for hiring a werewolf to teach DADA in the first place.

However, on that night he was facing Sirius and Lupin alone, and not under Dumbledore's protection, but unarmed, trapped, and in Sirius' case very weak; with no witnesses except three students whose evidence Snape could easily discount later, as indeed he did. I think seeing Lupin there with Sirius, the two of them defenseless, completely overcame his caution and reason and he just let his hatred boil over.

Please correct me if I am wrong: you are implying that the reason Snape went after Sirius and Remus so vehemently was because they were 'not under Dumbledore's protection, but unarmed, trapped, and in Sirius' case very weak'? :huh:

Was Lupin armed and under Albus' watchful gaze 24/7 during the year he taught DADA? Or perhaps Severus was unaware of the place Lupin 'trapped' himself in for the course of his transformations?

Again, I can not vouch for Black as Snape thought him responsible for Potters' discovery at that point, but I'm fairly certain he harboured no latent wish to finish Lupin off - his voilent reaction was due to the fact that he found him with Black instead of against him.

So you see, the circumstances at the end of PoA and the circumstances in all the later books are simply too different to compare convincingly.

May I remind you that it was your blanket statement that prompted that response from me?

The long and short of it was that Snape hated Sirius and Lupin, and was willing to see them dead or worse because of a grudge held over two decades

In canon, Snape's feelings for Sirius and Lupin do not change in later books. Ergo...

IMO, Snape only told Slytherin house about Lupin's problem because he was especially mad over not getting his way that night in the shack.

Good to see that seven books' worth of Snape's character arch hasn't been wasted... 'he was especially mad over not getting his way that night in the shack' http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/tired/018.gif

Er, how is Snape's threat to hand both Lupin and Sirius over to the dementors significantly different from Lupin and Sirius almost killing Peter just before that?

Let's see, Sirius has been trying to kill Peter all year (and has made multiple attempts to do so), so we've definitely got him on premeditation. He's also been willing to get at least one thirteen year old's leg badly broken in pursuit of that goal and was willing to slice the Fat Lady to ribbons.

Lupin has only just discovered he was wrong about Sirius being the killer and that a friend (whose death he has needlessly mourned for thirteen years) was really behind it all, so he probably counts as acting in "hot blood."

However, Lupin and Sirius both have the advantage over Peter in both numbers, weaponry, and any potential fights (magical or brute force). They also have three thirteen year old wizards who, at that point, are on their side and count as potential backup.

Snape believes - and has believed for thirteen years - that Sirius is responsible for Lily's death (not to mention Sirius' best friend's death, at least a dozen dead Muggles, and several members of the Order, including Ron's uncles). Snape has suspected that Lupin was working with Sirius and seems to be facing solid proof of that fact.

Snape may have fantasized about killing Sirius, but this situation has developed suddenly. Like Lupin, he would be acting in "hot blood" and without lengthy premeditation.

The situation, however, must look much more dangerous than a confrontation with the unarmed Peter did. Snape is up against (as he believes) two death eaters (and is about to blow his cover saving Harry Potter from them, by the way). Although disarmed, these two represent a more concrete threat than Peter did in terms of numbers and physical skills.

Two of them, one of him. Just mentioning that.

I am also willing to bet that Snape knows enough about Death Eaters to have reasonable grounds to suspect their attempts to "explain" things are just a delaying tactic while they try to change the situation to one more in their favor.

That would mean either an opportunity to escape or to get Snape disarmed (at which point, if they were Death Eaters, they would likely kill him).

On top of that, Snape believes the three thirteen year olds present (one of whom, remember, can't walk because of Sirius [which would be hard for Snape to see as a point in Sirius' favor]) have been bespelled to trust the two Death Eaters.

In other words, the people he is there to rescue (who are armed and have him outnumbered) may also turn on him.

In fact, that's what happens, the trio attacked Snape.

And he knows one of them may turn into a werewolf at any moment.

And the worst he manages is to threaten to have someone else do them in?

All right, someone who's going to suck their souls out rather than just kill them. But still.

And when he actually has a chance to do this - when, after the last thing he remembered was being in the Shrieking Shack and he wakes up outside it with four unconscious people and one missing Lupin - the dementors are long gone, so it's very questionable that Snape would even know they'd been there (and Lupin does look like a bit of a suspect for this turn of events, at least until you examine the situation a bit more closely - and, even then, I don't know that it's obvious dementors caused all that at this point) - and he could carry out his threat -

He conjures up stretchers and carries all of them - including Sirius - up to the castle.

I guess we could argue that we don't know what Sirius would do if the situation was reversed - Oh, wait. Sirius carried an unconscious Snape with a levitation spell and kept wacking his head on the stone ceiling.

Although I guess that wasn't quite the same. After all, Snape was under pressure to act in a medical emergency - and with a transformed werewolf whose location he didn't know but which he could suspect might be close by and ready to attack - something Sirius didn't have to deal with, although he was chained to Peter. So there was a certain amount of distraction . . . .

Sorry, how does that make Snape irredeemably nasty?

And, once again, how is this significantly different from what Sirius and Lupin did? Especially Sirius?

Er, how is Snape's threat to hand both Lupin and Sirius over to the dementors significantly different from Lupin and Sirius almost killing Peter just before that?

It wasn't imo, which is why Harry demanded that Lupin and Sirius desist when they moved to carry out their threat and reminded them his dad would not want them to be murderers for the likes of Peter which caused them to stand down. And it is why Harry blocked Snape's path as he moved to carry out his threat and demanded he desist and when Snape refused, the trio used a spell to disarm him, I presume so he would be forced to listen - but the combined power knocked him out. As for differences; in my opinion, the reason the trio took action in Snape's case was because they felt he was behaving in an unreasonable manner, unwilling to listen while Sirius and Lupin were trying to protest their guilt - and the trio felt they deserved to be heard, imo. Whereas the others bowed to reason and simply stood down of their own accord, even though Peter had admitted his guilt.

This interpretation hadn't occurred to me. I think it may have played some part in Snape's thoughts that night. However I believe Snape was primarily thinking of his own personal vengeance at this moment. The reason I believe this is because he then says to Sirius, "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...." To me, this indicates that he was thinking about how sweet it was to be the one to personally catch Sirius and bring him to justice. I agree that any mention of Lily at this point would be revealing too much too soon, but I believe that if avenging Lily was foremost in his mind, Snape may have said something indicating that Sirius would be brought into custody to answer for his crimes instead of saying he was glad to be the one to catch him.

He does say a few things that are suggestive. For example, he is furious that Harry seems to believe Sirius, and says:

"YOURE PATHETIC!" Harry yelled. "JUST BECAUSE THEY MADE A FOOL OF YOU AT SCHOOL YOU WON'T EVEN LISTEN --"

"SILENCE! I WILL NOT BE SPOKEN TO LIKE THAT!" Snape shrieked, looking madder than ever. "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. GET OUT OF THE WAY, POTTER!"

Clearly, the death of the Potters is on Snape's mind, and he does remember who is (supposedly) responsible.

Also, he at another moment accuses Hermione of "not understanding". As several people have at that point expressed the view that Snape is acting out of an old school grudge, to me this suggests Snape is not. He would not state the real reason, not only because Rowling would not want to lose her surprise in DH, but also because he does not want Harry to know. (See "The Prince's Tale", the scene in which Snape agrees to help Albus protect Harry).

Just a general observation about the Shrieking Shack scene: stepping outside the story for a moment, I think all the adults in this scene go haywire to varying extents so that Harry can have an adult moment to do what's right and shine through all the strong emotions that are flying around.

More than merely that. It is necessary for the rest of the series plot to work! Peter would never have gotten away if the three adults had managed to talk to one another in a civil and rational manner, and Harry would be living with a vindicated Sirius at 12 GP. :lol:

Hwyla: I agree with everything. I don't believe Snape could keep Lupin's secret anymore, for reasons I've stated earlier.

Ellen: It's very interesting that Snape is actually the one who is outnumbered in the Shack, which doesn't help Snape's mood later after Sirius escapes. :)

I think seeing Lupin there with Sirius, the two of them defenseless, completely overcame his caution and reason and he just let his hatred boil over. So you see, the circumstances at the end of PoA and the circumstances in all the later books are simply too different to compare convincingly.
To me, the anger wasn't just at seeing Lupin and Sirius together, but the fact that somehow they had lured the kids in there and put them in danger.

I feel that Snape was still cautious about the situation - he used the Invisibility Cloak to enter the tunnel and listened outside the door. It was only after Lupin admitted that he had betrayed Dumbledore's trust in the past that Snape had had enough and entered the room. He thought Lupin was just trying to be persuasive towards the kids to lull them into a sense of security right before the moon came up and he would transform and kill them. Did Lupin ever suggest that the kids run away back to the castle? No. Plus Ron couldn't run because he had a broken leg. Snape really had no choice but to step in to save the kids, because I believe that is another reason why he went there, besides wanting to capture Sirius. Just my opinion.

One more thing - while Snape is listening in the tunnel, Sirius keeps telling Lupin that he is ready to kill someone and Snape thinks Sirius is talking about Harry.

Hwyla: I agree with everything. I don't believe Snape could keep Lupin's secret anymore, for reasons I've stated earlier.

Ellen: It's very interesting that Snape is actually the one who is outnumbered in the Shack, which doesn't help Snape's mood later after Sirius escapes. :)


To me, the anger wasn't just at seeing Lupin and Sirius together, but the fact that somehow they had lured the kids in there and put them in danger.

I feel that Snape was still cautious about the situation - he used the Invisibility Cloak to enter the tunnel and listened outside the door. It was only after Lupin admitted that he had betrayed Dumbledore's trust in the past that Snape had had enough and entered the room. He thought Lupin was just trying to be persuasive towards the kids to lull them into a sense of security right before the moon came up and he would transform and kill them. Did Lupin ever suggest that the kids run away back to the castle? No. Plus Ron couldn't run because he had a broken leg. Snape really had no choice but to step in to save the kids, because I believe that is another reason why he went there, besides wanting to capture Sirius. Just my opinion.

One more thing - while Snape is listening in the tunnel, Sirius keeps telling Lupin that he is ready to kill someone and Snape thinks Sirius is talking about Harry.

And to me the Trio was the last thing on his mind. He wanted Sirius and he wanted Remus given the worst possible punishment. He was out of control. The Trio seen that, they were there. Harry notes the look in Snape's eyes. It doen't matter what his reasons were, everyone in that room had a good and valid reason for being there. That does not give Snape precedent over everyone else. No one in that room had authority to mete out any punishment and that includes Snape. His duty lay in alerting DD and keeping everyone safe till the proper autorities got there. Instead he acts so unreasonably that the Trio is forced to take action. The fact that all three of them do take action is proof enough for me. Harry, Ron and Hermione are not irresponsable, they have been in action before and in Harry's case face LV, so they're instincts cannot be dismissed and ignored as Snape wants to.

Snape had no reason to out Remus, Remus was going to leave and he must have known that, no one disputes his intelligence and reasoning power. It IMO doesn't matter that Remus cleaned himself up and got himself together after his first night in over a year transforming with all the pain and agony that involves. When Snape exposed him, he exposed Remus to the entire WW. It doesn't matter to me that the information may have been splattered all over the Daily Prophet, or that Fudge would have screamed it out all over the Ministery. Snape's action was vindictive in the extreme and frankly I expected more from the man who said he wouldn't watch anybody die needlessly if he could help it. This was cutting Remus off at the knees and would certainly have an effect on his future. It was an action that would certainly have an effect on the headlines of the Daily Prophet if by chance they hadn't already known.

And to me the Trio was the last thing on his mind. He wanted Sirius and he wanted Remus given the worst possible punishment. He was out of control. The Trio seen that, they were there. Harry notes the look in Snape's eyes. It doen't matter what his reasons were, everyone in that room had a good and valid reason for being there. That does not give Snape precedent over everyone else. No one in that room had authority to mete out any punishment and that includes Snape. His duty lay in alerting DD and keeping everyone safe till the proper autorities got there. Instead he acts so unreasonably that the Trio is forced to take action. The fact that all three of them do take action is proof enough for me. Harry, Ron and Hermione are not irresponsable, they have been in action before and in Harry's case face LV, so they're instincts cannot be dismissed and ignored as Snape wants to.

So the kids were right to attack Snape? I'm not so sure about that, but at least they never get punished for it.

Harry, Ron, and Hermione are just children, and Snape is a teacher, so I think he does have a right to be there. Plus his intentions are good, and the effect on Lupin's reputation is just a side-effect. Lupin is not acting rationally either, but maybe that's the effect of the full moon. Just my opinion.

Considering what had happened with Quirrell and Lockhart in the two years before, Snape had no reason to think that the judgment of the kids was particularly good in terms of them being safe from harm.

Great post hwyla! :clap:

However, there is absolutely no excuse for his treatment of Lupin. I think it's a rather overlooked incident because of the suspenseful setting, but has anyone else ever noticed that absolute cruelty Snape shows at the climax of PoA?

Lupin already betrayed Dumbledore's trust when he did not say anything about Sirius being an animagus. Sirius was thought to be a DE until the very end of POA. And Lupin was perfectly fine with this DE entering Gryffindor Tower and almost attacking Harry.

Lupin knew the danger Sirius presented, for the fact Sirius could enter Gryffindor Tower meant that anti animagus wards were not there in the School and Sirius could easily roam around and attack Harry and other students, elsewhere too. He does not appear to mind that.

What did Remus do?

He sat tight. Harry's life was really worth only that much to Lupin, if he could not bring himself to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus. His silence could have cost quite a lot had Sirius been a DE.

That was Lupin's first mistake and a very serious one IMO. Which made him untrustworthy. Snape told Dumbledore that he never trusted Lupin, and after this incident, when Lupin did not resign the next day, did not reveal Sirius's animagus form and help Dumbledore, made himself guilty of what Snape accused him of IMO.

Because he was mild mannered and pleasant, I am afraid, it really does not take the blame of him.

The second mistake was not to take the wolfsbane. He had delayed it so much Snape had to come with the goblet to him. Which shows how responsible Snape was IMO.

Snape at that point, disliked Lupin, thought him to be with Sirius, helping Sirius and yet, he respected Dumbledore and was willing to do as he directed; which was to get the wolfsbane to Lupin every month. It also showed Snape was also thinking of the students in the castle who could be in danger because Lupin had forgotten his wolfsbane.

Snape did nothing wrong there IMO. Lupin was the one who did not take his wolfsbane and I really cannot understand why Snape is being blamed for that.

That night Lupin by not taking the wolfsbane placed others in great danger. Snape and the others escaped, but they could have easily been attacked as well.

I think Snape by mentioning it to his Slytherins was making sure that Lupin would never be placed in a position in Hogwarts where he could harm other students. Snape thinking about the safety of the students and I don't see that as cruel or wrong.

To refuse to hear his explanation when Lupin pleaded with him to listen?

Lupin was speaking for Sirius, and Snape Lupin suspected of helping Sirius. He was not wrong, for Lupin was helping Sirius by his silence about his animagus form. Lupin was asking Snape to believe Sirius without offering any proof that Sirius was innocent, when he should have said, 'let us take Sirius to Dumbledore and ask him to question him, because he has a different story to tell'. Instead Lupin wants Snape to believe a man who the Ministry and the WW thought of as a murderer and one who had escaped Azkaban and was here to kill Harry. Everyone from Dumbledore to Lupin himself believed that until that time IMO.

Snape did not know the whole story and I doubt he was going to take Lupin's word or Sirius' word that they were innocent, when he had no proof that they were IMO.

And Lupin adds an insult too, by saying Snape was harbouring a schoolboy grudge, how does he expect Snape to believe his word or the words of a murderer, who had KIssed at sight orders placed on him by the Ministry? :huh:

To tie and gag Lupin so tightly that the ropes cut him and he had no feeling in his hands?

This was the smartest thing Snape did. It shows that even under pressure and even when he was face to face with Lily's killer, his intelligence did not desert him IMO.

Lupin had not taken the wolfsbane and he would transform at any time because of that. Snape had the presence of mind to tie up Lupin and very tightly too, so that if indeed he transformed, he would not hurt Harry and the others. Tying him up was intelligent IMO, not cruel.

Any other thoughts?

Snape, in his dealings with Lupin was more fair than Lupin deserved IMO. Lupin made too many mistakes for which he did not own up to, and Snape for all the mistakes Lupin made never did anything that could be seen as remotely vindictive or mean. He could have easily done something to the wolfsbane; he could have taken Sirius to the dementors to be Kissed at once, no one could have done anything, for Snape would have been following only Ministry Orders by getting Sirius Kissed, and yet Harry notes, Snape regained consciousness, conjured stretchers even for Sirius, who bumped Snape's head on ceiling as he dragged him along, when Snape was unconscious and took them towards the castle and Dumbledore instead of towards the gate and the dementors.

It is Lupin who IMO needed to do a lot of introspection about this year in particular, where he not only betrayed Dumbledore's confidence in him, but did not feel responsible enough to step down or at least tell Dumbledore about Sirius' animagus, even when Sirius was able to get into Gryffindor Tower.

So the kids were right to attack Snape? I'm not so sure about that, but at least they never get punished for it.

Harry, Ron, and Hermione are just children, and Snape is a teacher, so I think he does have a right to be there. Plus his intentions are good, and the effect on Lupin's reputation is just a side-effect. Lupin is not acting rationally either, but maybe that's the effect of the full moon. Just my opinion.

Considering what had happened with Quirrell and Lockhart in the two years before, Snape had no reason to think that the judgment of the kids was particularly good in terms of them being safe from harm.

Well as they're standing there, unharmed, I would have to dispute that. Harry and Company had more experience despit their youth at facing LV and defeating him than all of the teachers at Hogwarts combined, and that includes Snape. He is a teacher on Hogwarts grounds, isn't the Shack outside the grounds and therefore outside his authority? He was out of control and about to commit a crime. When someone, and I include the Trio in that someone, sees what they know to be a crime about to take place, then they have the moral duty to prevent that crime. Just because they are children does not mean they do not understand right from wrong. The Trio saved Snape from committing an illegal and immoral act. something that would have had a devestating effect on his soul. Snape had no right to threaten anyone with the Dementor's. He had no legal right to bind and gag Remus. Sirius had never had a trial, therfore he was illegally confined by the State. Good intentions does not give Snape the right to ride roughshod over the rights of others. He should have been grateful to the Trio for saving him from himself.

I think Remus is acting very rationally, up until the time he transforms. That is his illness and everyone including Snape forgot the potion. In the cold light of day Snape does not have the right to try to destroy Remus' life. It is unworthy of him, but I will have to get over it. Remus forgives him and he is the important one.

I think we just need to remember how loyal Snape was to Dumbledore, and from that point of view put everything Lupin said in perspective. Lupin admitted not telling Dumbledore that Sirius, James, and Peter were Animagi. That is bad enough from Snape's point of view, but then to find Lupin there with Sirius putting Harry in possible danger two ways (werewolf and convict) is just beyond what Snape could accept, in my opinion.

Also, from Snape's point of view, was Lupin acting loyal to Lily's memory as her old friend? No, not really, so Snape had no reason to listen to him anymore. JMO

I think we just need to remember how loyal Snape was to Dumbledore, and from that point of view put everything Lupin said in perspective. Lupin admitted not telling Dumbledore that Sirius, James, and Peter were Animagi. That is bad enough from Snape's point of view, but then to find Lupin there with Sirius putting Harry in possible danger two ways (werewolf and convict) is just beyond what Snape could accept, in my opinion.

Also, from Snape's point of view, was Lupin acting loyal to Lily's memory as her old friend? No, not really, so Snape had no reason to listen to him anymore. JMO

Again IMO this goes back to motivation. Does Snape really believe that Remus would harm Harry? Does he have reasonable grounds for his (Snape's) actions. I don't believe so. Amid this welter of accusation and counter-accusation about who is more wrong, for me one thing stands out, Snape actions when he actually is facing Sirius and Remus. His actions are inconsistent and he is too busy getting satisfaction from his position of power to pay attention to the Trio, who are ostensibly his reason for being there. He has reason, in his mind good reasons, but that does not put him in the right. Harry is there to find out what happened to his parents, to penetrate the mystery of their deaths and I don't care about Snape's feeling at this point, Harry has more right to be there. There is too much ambiguity in Snape's motives and frankly I think there are too many emotions for him to think clearly. Harry seems to be the only one focussing on what happened to his parents. He never loses sight of this even when Snape is acting like a madman. Harry wants the truth, Snape wants vengeance. Lupin's Potion, Snape and Sirius bickering, Peter trying to escape. All this is to me at least a smokescreen. What matters is finding out what happened to James and Lily. Snape's real pain can easily be put on the back burner, I don't mean to sound callous but it's are not that important at this time. This is not Snape's hour and that is why he is shuffled off to the side.

Snape's telling Slytherins about Remus really has very little to do with Remus' having to leave Hogwarts.

The fact is Remus was running loose on school grounds in his werewolf form during the full moon when he should have taken his wolfsbane. HE is the one who is responsible for NOT taking his wolfsbane. HE is the one endangering anyone he might come across. And it isn't as if he hadn't had plenty of time to go take his medicine. Snape only brings it up to Remus' office because Remus had not gone to get it earlier and time was running out.

The Ministry cannot possibly allow Remus to remain there. Whether Snape tells anyone or not. Remus will HAVE to leave.

And where does that leave Snape if he doesn't tell the Slytherins?

There is much more going on here than JKR spells out to us.

1) Sirius has escaped - the Ministry is going to be searching the grounds for him immediately. It would be negligent to not do so.

2) There's a werewolf loose on the grounds. Those searching for Sirius would be endangered if they are not warned that while looking for Sirius they may be attacked by a werewolf.

3) Remus himself would be in great danger if the aurors go searching the school grounds (especially the Forbidden Forest) for Sirius and encounter Remus in his werewolf form. He had not taken his wolfsbane. He WOULD attack. And he would be 'put down' for doing so.

4) Therefore, even IF the Minister did not know Remus was a werewolf before, he MUST be told before he sends Aurours out to search for Sirius - as a safety measure for the Aurors AND for Remus.

5) Peter has escaped and Albus is well aware of a REAL prophecy made that day that implies Peter will run straight to Voldy. Peter is not only fully aware of Remus' werewolf status, but IF Voldy casts a legilimens on him he will see that Snape was in the Shack and knows full well that Remus was a werewolf.

6) The prophecy about Peter says that Voldy WILL be back. Therefore Albus WILL need Snape to go back to Voldy and he will also need a good 'working relationship' with as many of the DEs as possible to ensure the best sources of information. Now just how will he accomplish that when every single DE that had a child at Hogwarts at the time finds out that Snape KNEW Remus was a werewolf and did not TELL their precious children to beware? He can probably get away with pretending he didn't know until that night (and occlude the fact that he was making Remus' wolfsbane), but he cannot get away with not telling them the next morning.

7) Remus says he went to resign 'first thing' that morning. Considering he must reenter the castle from his night out - 'first thing' SHOULD mean on his way to his rooms BEFORE breakfast. NOT after I went to my rooms, had a shower, dressed, went to the Great Hall, sat there and ate my breakfast and only THEN getting up to wander over to Albus and resign because apparently all of Slytherin House is whispering about me.

At the very latest, 'first thing' means as soon as he see Albus at the breakfast table. And considering the fact that Remus was 'up' with the sunrise, he SOULD be at breakfast before most of the kids. Even if he DID go shower first.

In MY opinion: I think Snape had NO choice but to let Remus' secret out. It is necessary for his effectiveness as a spy in the near future. I honestly believe it is even with Albus' blessing that he let's the secret slip. I think there's a VERY good possibility that letting Remus' secret 'slip' is the beginning of Remus' cover for spying among the Werewolves in bk6. Any other usefulness Remus can be at Hogwarts is OVER. It's time to see how he can be of use in the future.

The Werewolves would not normally trust Remus without some kind of apparent 'break' with Albus. Being forced out of his job, with no new employment coming (because of the public nature of his 'outing') puts Remus into a position where the Werewolf pack will possibly accept him. It invents a cover story for him. I think Remus referred to himself as 'tailor-made' (paraphrased?) for the job.

Anyways - whether it set Remus' spying career up or not - I cannot see any possible way that Snape would be able to gain/keep the trust of any parents of his Slytherin charges if he does NOT give up Remus' secret. And he must have that trust (at least among those who are DEs) to be an effective spy.

Lastly - it is Remus that says that Snape's anger in the Shack is about a 'schoolboy grudge'. On the other hand - when everyone is more or less 'safe', what is it Snape yells at Harry about? He yells at him for trusting Sirius - just like James did - and how it got James (and Lily) killed. To me, it is obvious that - in Snape's OWN WORDS (not what Remus believes - but what Snape tells us himself) - his anger at Sirius is ALL about the death of the Potters. And that Snape believed that since Harry listened and trusted Sirius, then if Snape had not come along then Harry would also have died. Why should we believe Remus knows more about why Snape is angry than Snape knows himself? Especially when Snape tells us himself.
Totally disagreed. If Snape hadn't told about the incident then nobody would have known about it, for that I am sure that the other people who were involved and knew about it would have kept their mouth shut. If Snape hadn't told others, the ministry would have never know and Remus would be still there. It was Snape's decision to spill out the secret that lead to his sacking. I am pretty sure that the ministry are aware that Remus is a werewolf, so they knew from the beginning that there is a risk in hiring him.

As for #5:
Casting Legilismensy on who? Peter? What difference does it make whether Voldy knows that Remus is a werewolf and more important. Why does it matter where Remus is at the moment the Shack scene is revealed?

What matters is finding out what happened to James and Lily. Snape's real pain can easily be put on the back burner, I don't mean to sound callous but it's are not that important at this time. This is not Snape's hour and that is why he is shuffled off to the side.

To me he is shuffled offstage to leave him in the dark about Peter until the rat can run away. And for that matter we can make a case that Lupin is just there to transform so Peter can escape and help the Dark Lord return in Book 4. Everyone has different plot points swirling around them in the Shack, but Snape has to be there for the kids and Sirius to get back to the castle after the Dementor attack.

The reason Snape is more irrational perhaps than even Lupin in that scene is because of how strongly he felt about Lily. That's the information that none of the kids had. He has just as much right to hate Sirius as Harry does, or just as much right to hate the betrayor of the Potters, whether it was Peter or Sirius.

Totally disagreed. If Snape hadn't told about the incident then nobody would have known about it, for that I am sure that the other people who were involved and knew about it would have kept their mouth shut. If Snape hadn't told others, the ministry would have never know and Remus would be still there. It was Snape's decision to spill out the secret that lead to his sacking.

I don't think he would still be there, nor do I think he should have been. As Remus himself recognises (and this is my reason to believe he would have left anyway), he was a threat, and one mistake on his part (like the one he made in forgetting his potion) could have unpredictable consequences. I think Remus is responsible enough to acknowledge the risk and quit on his own, even if his secret hadn't been leaked.

I don't think he would still be there, nor do I think he should have been. As Remus himself recognises (and this is my reason to believe he would have left anyway), he was a threat, and one mistake on his part (like the one he made in forgetting his potion) could have unpredictable consequences. I think Remus is responsible enough to acknowledge the risk and quit on his own, even if his secret hadn't been leaked.
Leaving the castle was Remus decision and I also think that it was probably good in the end, but that doesn't mean that Snape was right when he spilled his secret nor did he have any reason to do it.

Anyways poll:
What is Snape's greatest weakness?
his vindictiveness:
I don't think it means what I think it means.

his inability to move on
Yes yes definitely. Snape pretty much lives in the past. He should have learned to move on. He should have forgotten about his teenage love, especially as it wasn't returned. He was chasing something that he never got and even later still after her in death. Would have saved a lot of trouble for him and other people if he'd put the past behind.

his unsocial behaviour
He isn't unsocial, he is just socializing with the wrong people, being "friend" with the people he should have stayed away from the beginning.

his love for Lily
for the reasons above

Again IMO this goes back to motivation. Does Snape really believe that Remus would harm Harry?

In the Shack, yes indeed. Lupin had not taken his medicine and would harm everyone the moment he transformed.

The next day, no, not at that time. But given the past and Lupin's irresponsibility, there could be a time in the future where he could once again forget to take his wolfsbane and that time actually cause harm. Snape was preventing that from ever happening to Hogwarts students IMO.

If it was Lupin's responsibility to leave the castle to ensure that he never harmed anyone, then what difference did it make what Snape said? I would blame the curse on the DADA job before I would blame Snape. Perhaps the curse made Lupin forget to drink the potion . . . that Snape brewed for him so he could keep on teaching at Hogwarts.

I stick to my theory that Fudge would have told Lucius that Lupin was a werewolf anyway, because it's an established fact in the books that Lucius is on the board of the school, plus he is seen with Fudge in GoF and at the Ministry in OotP. Just my opinion.

If it was Lupin's responsibility to leave the castle to ensure that he never harmed anyone, then what difference did it make what Snape said? I would blame the curse on the DADA job before I would blame Snape. Perhaps the curse made Lupin forget to drink the potion . . . that Snape brewed for him so he could keep on teaching at Hogwarts.
The difference is IMO that with Snape's spilling he brought up the students against Remus. He told them he's a werewolf, he made them fear him, causing the kind of trouble for him that wasn't necessary. If Snape's words didn't have anything to do with Remus leaving, then why saying it at all? For me it was just like kicking someone who's already lying on the ground.

He told them he's a werewolf, he made them fear him, causing the kind of trouble for him that wasn't necessary.

I think Remus brought it on himself, rather than Snape bringing it on him. It was Lupin's fault that he did not take the wolfsbane. Snape IMO was merely making sure, Lupin would never have a chance to make such mistakes again IMO.

I think Remus brought it on himself, rather than Snape bringing it on him. It was Lupin's fault that he did not take the wolfsbane. Snape IMO was merely making sure, Lupin would never have a chance to make such mistakes again IMO.
Uhmm I cannot agree with this "noble gesture", how can you prevent someone from making mistakes by bringing 100s of people against them?
Yes Remus should have taken the potion, BUT the fact that he didn't and the fact that Snape revealed his secret have IMO nothing to do with eachother.
If it wasn't for the Shack scene and Snape getting furious about Sirius and Remus and probably being reminded of the past. IMO was Snape's decision rather made with anger about the whole Marauder story, rather than his concern about the students.

Yes Remus should have taken the potion, BUT the fact that he didn't and the fact that Snape revealed his secret have IMO nothing to do with eachother.

Have answered in the Remus Lupin thread. :)

He told them he's a werewolf, he made them fear him...

With all due respect, I think you're giving old Sev waaay to much credit there. :lol:

Fact 1: In HPverse, wizards fear werewolfs.
Fact 2: Lupin is a werewolf.

Snape did not make anyone fear Lupin. Lupin's nature is what would have made people fear (or not, as case may be). He merely told them the (unpleasant) truth, as usual. :relax:

If Snape's words didn't have anything to do with Remus leaving, then why saying it at all?

Why not? Snape had nothing to gain by keeping quiet, and he owed Lupin no favours.

Shrieking Shack incident aside, Snape had all night to consider his next move. I highly doubt he acted on vengeful impulse - fact remains that Lupin consciously broke the safety rules and put his charges in danger. He was a member of the Order, for Volos' sake!!!

And all Snape needed was another reckless Hogwarts resident at that point... :rolleyes:

For me it was just like kicking someone who's already lying on the ground.

I thought that was... someone else's specialty. :hmm:

With all due respect, I think you're giving old Sev waaay to much credit there. :lol:

Fact 1: In HPverse, wizards fear werewolfs.
Fact 2: Lupin is a werewolf.

Snape did not make anyone fear Lupin. Lupin's nature is what would have made people fear (or not, as case may be). He merely told them the (unpleasant) truth, as usual. :relax:

No, I don't thnk so, encouraging fear in loathing is not something to be proud of. The fact that werewolves are rightly or wrongly feared by the WW does not lift Snape's personal responsibilty in this matter. Lupin has an illness, one that is dangerous. This is not a crime, but something that needs to be handled with with care and compassion. The WW's treatment of werewolves is not someting to be proud of. Snape also had an unpleasant truth in his life. Would it have served any greater purpose to spread it around that he had been a DE and was partly responsable for the deaths of the Potters?

Why not? Snape had nothing to gain by keeping quiet, and he owed Lupin no favours.

You don't act as a humane person for gain. You act like a humane person out of compassion. Snape owed it to himself to act better than that.


Shrieking Shack incident aside, Snape had all night to consider his next move. I highly doubt he acted on vengeful impulse - fact remains that Lupin consciously broke the safety rules and put his charges in danger. He was a member of the Order, for Volos' sake!!!

And all Snape needed was another reckless Hogwarts resident at that point... :rolleyes:

Do stop rolling your eyes, you will do them damage.

What Lupin did was between him and the relevant authorities. What Snape did out of pettiness is between himself and his concience. You may think that he didn't do anything that bad, I think he let himself down very badly. Remus was hurt by the outside world by Snape's actions, Snape IMO took several large steps backwards and hurt himself just as badly.

I

Remus was hurt by the outside world by Snape's actions, Snape IMO took several large steps backwards and hurt himself just as badly.

Have answered in the Remus Lupin thread! :)

Again it is asked WHY Snape might have a reason (other than plain vindictiveness) to 'out' Remus - with the special twist of 'no one would have found out'

For those that believe this I have questions.

1) WHY do you believe no one would have known? Fudge is THERE and Sirius has escaped just minutes before - why would you NOT expect him to have the grounds and forest searched? It would be negligent on his part toNOT do so.

2) IF they do so, then wouldn't it be incredibly 'cruel' to not warn these aurors that there's a werewolf on the loose? Especially since they might kill him (Remus) in response to an attack?

3) And what kind of Minister of Magic would then allow Remus to KEEP that job? After endangering 3 students. Remus was out of a job no matter what Snape said or didn't.

4) Lastly IF Snape does NOT warn the Slytherins, how is he to get any info out of any of their parents in his KNOWN future as a spy. Peter has escaped exactly as the prophecy said. That means the rest of the prophecy follows - Voldy WILL be coming back. Snape cannot afford to NOT out Remus and be an effective spy in the future.

4) Lastly IF Snape does NOT warn the Slytherins, how is he to get any info out of any of their parents in his KNOWN future as a spy. Peter has escaped exactly as the prophecy said. That means the rest of the prophecy follows - Voldy WILL be coming back. Snape cannot afford to NOT out Remus and be an effective spy in the future.

I don't see what the one has to do with the other. I don't think Snape needs to out every secret he learns to be an effective spy. Actually, I think if he had been a little more restrained he would have been more effective. IMO, Draco seems not to want to trust Snape in HBP because he thinks he is a glory hound. I think Snape could be seen by those he needed to impress as a far more effective spy and more trustworthy if he acted more low key. I don't think his outing Lupin had anything to do with trying to spy better.

Again it is asked WHY Snape might have a reason (other than plain vindictiveness) to 'out' Remus - with the special twist of 'no one would have found out'

For those that believe this I have questions.

1) WHY do you believe no one would have known? Fudge is THERE and Sirius has escaped just minutes before - why would you NOT expect him to have the grounds and forest searched? It would be negligent on his part toNOT do so.

2) IF they do so, then wouldn't it be incredibly 'cruel' to not warn these aurors that there's a werewolf on the loose? Especially since they might kill him (Remus) in response to an attack?

3) And what kind of Minister of Magic would then allow Remus to KEEP that job? After endangering 3 students. Remus was out of a job no matter what Snape said or didn't.

4) Lastly IF Snape does NOT warn the Slytherins, how is he to get any info out of any of their parents in his KNOWN future as a spy. Peter has escaped exactly as the prophecy said. That means the rest of the prophecy follows - Voldy WILL be coming back. Snape cannot afford to NOT out Remus and be an effective spy in the future.

Okay let me answer your questions. I could be wrong but I'll try.

1) What Fudge may have said or not said is moot. He never got the chance to say anything. Snape jumped the gun and that was that. We will never know if DD could have smoothed things over or not. By morning they would have been searching the grounds for Remus and I think he got back to the castle uder his own steam. I personally don't think aurors would have been searching for anyone.

2) Remus was in the Forbidden Forest, I doubt anyone went in there besides Harry and Sirius.

3) Keeping the job was not an issue. The position was cursed and Remus would be gone by the end of the term. Forgetting the potion was unfortunate but everyone forgot it, not just Remus. And the 3 students were fine except Ron with his broken leg and Sirius was there and protected the 3 students just fine.

4) Snape have trouble under any circumstances getting information from that bunch of DE's? I have more respect for his abilities than that. If no one had told about Remus' 'furry little problem', which was quite possible if DD had been allowed to contain the information, Snape would not have had to worry about any cover for his spying. I think this question is self defeating, sorry.

My problem with Snape in this case is every justification I read is dependant on what other people (Fudge, Ministery, ect.) would do so that justifies his actions. Snape acted alone in going down to the Shack. He should have alerted DD, but he didn't. Remus transforming was a terrible mischance, but it was contained by Sirius. Snape had no part in that. I have every sympathy for his pain but that did not give him the right to out Remus. There were already steps in place for that. He should not have outed him. IMO.

I'm not talking about EVERY secret - I'm talking about not telling these folks KIDS that to beware of a werewolf. The secret is OUT whether Snape tells it or not.

One cannot possibly expect the Head of the Government to sweep under the rug the fact that this particular werwolf endangered 3 kids at the school while he was a teacher.

But also important is that Peter HAS escaped and is running straight for Voldy - and they have warning that Voldy will return. Snape is at the very least going to need to stay on friendly terms with Lucius. And just how 'friendly' is Lucius going to feel if he finds out Snape KNEW Remus had run loose and then not warned Lucius' ONLY child?

What MIGHT the results BE if that happened? For instance, we have never been told exactly how the Order came to know that they needed to watch the DoM door to protect the prophecy orbs - but from the way so many were circling Snape after the meeting, it's apparent that the warning came from him.

Now how did Snape come by his information? We don't KNOW - however, considering Lucius was involved in trying to get that one Unspeakable to grab the prophecy AND Lucius headed up the fight in the DoM later in the year - it seems that as punishment (and a chance to 'atone') for his mistake with Riddle's diary, Lucius was assigned the task of getting the Prophecy. Therefore it is every bit as likely that Snape got his info from Lucius as it is that he got it directly from Voldy.

Snape would not be an effective spy if he could no longer count Lucius as his 'friend'.

I don't think Snape needs to out every secret he learns to be an effective spy.

Not every curse, but one which could harm students; Snape must out that secret so that he can warn students to stay inside during full moons. For if Remus can forget his wolfsbane, then at least the students need to be warned to stay inside on full moon nights IMO.

Plus everything hwyla said. :)

I'm not talking about EVERY secret - I'm talking about not telling these folks KIDS that to beware of a werewolf. The secret is OUT whether Snape tells it or not.

One cannot possibly expect the Head of the Government to sweep under the rug the fact that this particular werwolf endangered 3 kids at the school while he was a teacher.

But also important is that Peter HAS escaped and is running straight for Voldy - and they have warning that Voldy will return. Snape is at the very least going to need to stay on friendly terms with Lucius. And just how 'friendly' is Lucius going to feel if he finds out Snape KNEW Remus had run loose and then not warned Lucius' ONLY child?

What MIGHT the results BE if that happened? For instance, we have never been told exactly how the Order came to know that they needed to watch the DoM door to protect the prophecy orbs - but from the way so many were circling Snape after the meeting, it's apparent that the warning came from him.

Now how did Snape come by his information? We don't KNOW - however, considering Lucius was involved in trying to get that one Unspeakable to grab the prophecy AND Lucius headed up the fight in the DoM later in the year - it seems that as punishment (and a chance to 'atone') for his mistake with Riddle's diary, Lucius was assigned the task of getting the Prophecy. Therefore it is every bit as likely that Snape got his info from Lucius as it is that he got it directly from Voldy.

Snape would not be an effective spy if he could no longer count Lucius as his 'friend'.

Snape could have sent Lucius an owl, saying he was working on getting Lupin fired. Then Lupin leaves school, whatever the Ministry decides it needs to reveal is done, and Snape would IMO look even more impressive in his ability to quietly and efficiently get things done. All this takes place in a matter of hours, afterall. I just don't see how Snape's action leads him to being a more effective spy. I think the contrary.

So, the strongest condemnation of Snape - outing Remus - is based entirely on hearsay evidence as provided by Hagrid? Hagrid's a nice guy but his explanations - and his perspective on events - can be incomplete or suffer from his own, unique POV (if we only had his statements about Norbert without having seen him/her in action, would we know that dragons are not good pets?).

Of course, we don't know who, if anyone, Hagrid's slant might be in favor of in his statement - Snape, because Hagrid always thinks well of Hogwarts teachers (well, almost always, Lockhart and Umbridge fell into their own categories)? Or Lupin because Hagrid would never worry about a werewolf even if Lupin was transformed 24/7?

But, given the difference of the arguments on that point - we can't even quote what Snape said to bolster whether the outing was deliberate or an honest slip, much less support the different views on Snape's intentions - I really wish Rowling had told us more on that point.

By the way, notice Snape's scenes before this. He is losing his temper big time and saying a lot of things that, however you take them, he would not be saying - or would be saying in a way more calculated to achieve his ends - if he was keeping a cooler head.

So, after all that - and a night with little or no sleep - is an accidental slip possible? Certainly.

Is it also possible that, after all that, Snape could be getting the only revenge left to him? Yep.

Is it possible Snape has some other reason, like deliberately warning his charges about a potential danger? Also possible.

Before the firestorm starts on those three possibilities (or, rather, continues as usual), my point is that, on this very important aspect - very key to a lot of our different takes on Snape - we've got significantly less information than usual and, if this was a court of law, we wouldn't even be able to get it in as evidence in the form we have it.

And, if I may say so, as hearsay evidence goes, it's still pretty shy on detail.

And, if I may say so, as hearsay evidence goes, it's still pretty shy on detail.I think the reason for this is that it wasn't so important why it happened, only that it did happen. And so we are left to draw our own conclusions about the why, which, as you mentioned, are going to be different based on how each of us sees the character.

Snape could have sent Lucius an owl, saying he was working on getting Lupin fired. Then Lupin leaves school, whatever the Ministry decides it needs to reveal is done, and Snape would IMO look even more impressive in his ability to quietly and efficiently get things done. All this takes place in a matter of hours, afterall. I just don't see how Snape's action leads him to being a more effective spy. I think the contrary.

You're forgetting that Voldemort and the DE rely on open prejudice to bolster their power and intimidation of people. It would be more suspect IMO, if Snape tried to be "discreet" about a werewolf, when the DE's philosophy is openly against- 1) any order of Dumbledore's Order, 2) werewolves. So in context of Snape acting as a spy and trying to bolster his image to the DE- Snape had absolutely no reason to be discrete.

In the end, Snape did not get Lupin fired and he did nothing other than "out" Lupin to the Slytherins. Of course he did so knowing that it would be all over the school by the end of the day. BUT- If Snape had said nothing to any of the students- and only Malfoy, Malfoy would have outed him gleefully and Draco would have told the whole school, with a few embellishments no doubt. Snape told the truth- Draco would have said much much more.

The fact of the matter is, Lupin would have been outed in any event and Lupin had nobody to blame but himself for forgetting to take his Potion- he says so himself.

Considering what had happened with Quirrell and Lockhart in the two years before, Snape had no reason to think that the judgment of the kids was particularly good in terms of them being safe from harm.

And we know this was on Snape's mind in PoA, as well. In the chapter "Snape's Grudge" Snape is clearly angry/worried that Harry puts having fun in Hogsmeade above his own personal safety at a time that he is believed to be at great risk because Black is on the loose.

You're forgetting that Voldemort and the DE rely on open prejudice to bolster their power and intimidation of people. It would be more suspect IMO, if Snape tried to be "discreet" about a werewolf, when the DE's philosophy is openly against- 1) any order of Dumbledore's Order, 2) werewolves. So in context of Snape acting as a spy and trying to bolster his image to the DE- Snape had absolutely no reason to be discrete.

In the end, Snape did not get Lupin fired and he did nothing other than "out" Lupin to the Slytherins. Of course he did so knowing that it would be all over the school by the end of the day. BUT- If Snape had said nothing to any of the students- and only Malfoy, Malfoy would have outed him gleefully and Draco would have told the whole school, with a few embellishments no doubt. Snape told the truth- Draco would have said much much more.

The fact of the matter is, Lupin would have been outed in any event and Lupin had nobody to blame but himself for forgetting to take his Potion- he says so himself.

And this IMO is justifying Snape's actions. IMO there can be no justification. But I'm willing to admit that you are entitled to your opinion.