Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

The fact of the matter is, Lupin would have been outed in any event and Lupin had nobody to blame but himself for forgetting to take his Potion- he says so himself.

Exactly. :agree:

And this IMO is justifying Snape's actions. IMO there can be no justification. But I'm willing to admit that you are entitled to your opinion.

And they say I'm assertive... :lol:

The act is completely in line with Snape's character and not exactly endangering anyone, so I don't see why we should be so eager to condemn it.

You're forgetting that Voldemort and the DE rely on open prejudice to bolster their power and intimidation of people. It would be more suspect IMO, if Snape tried to be "discreet" about a werewolf, when the DE's philosophy is openly against- 1) any order of Dumbledore's Order, 2) werewolves. So in context of Snape acting as a spy and trying to bolster his image to the DE- Snape had absolutely no reason to be discrete.

I'm not forgetting, I just don't agree. I think a spy does have reason to be discreet. IMO if the Death Eater crowd believes him to be spying on Dumbledore, then they would expect that Snape would have to tone down kowtowing to their philosophy in order to keep in Dumbledore's good graces. If Snape wanted to look good for spying purposes then I think he had better, subtler avenues to pursue.

I think the reason for this is that it wasn't so important why it happened, only that it did happen. And so we are left to draw our own conclusions about the why, which, as you mentioned, are going to be different based on how each of us sees the character.
This is true I think. There are a lot of events in the books where we're told/shown of what happened, but not so much as to why or how. If I have my canon correct, the only reason I can tell for why Lupin forgot to take his potion in the first place was that he saw Pettigrew on the Marauders map and tried to investigate, hence the Shrieking Shack scene in Book 3. Other than that, he was doing a good job. But he took responsibility for his mistake, as he should. And it wouldn't surprise me if Snape did what he did out of spite. There are examples in the books where he does and says things that are just mean spirited, so to me it would have been part of his character.

And we know this was on Snape's mind in PoA, as well. In the chapter "Snape's Grudge" Snape is clearly angry/worried that Harry puts having fun in Hogsmeade above his own personal safety at a time that he is believed to be at great risk because Black is on the loose.

Exactly my point. :tu: :agree: Considering how closely Snape was watching Harry and trying to keep him out of Hogsmeade, the last place he ever wanted to find him was in the Shrieking Shack . . . which is in Hogsmeade.

And the Shrieking Shack is not Snape's "happy place" anyway, given that he almost died there as a boy, and eventually he does die there with Harry watching him. Seeing Harry there with the werewolf is not a good thing, period, in my opinion, or with Sirius either - the person who told him to go to the Shack as a boy. All that baggage about the Shack, both in Snape's past and in his future, tells us that JKR is making some sort of point about what a dangerous place it is to Snape, which is why he is brave to go there in the end and face Voldemort.

Symbolically, the Shack overall in the books is a place of illogic and death and not a place to have a reasonable discussion, in my opinion.

1) WHY do you believe no one would have known? Fudge is THERE and Sirius has escaped just minutes before - why would you NOT expect him to have the grounds and forest searched? It would be negligent on his part toNOT do so.

2) IF they do so, then wouldn't it be incredibly 'cruel' to not warn these aurors that there's a werewolf on the loose? Especially since they might kill him (Remus) in response to an attack?

Good Questions. :) My view:

Snape let the information slip at breakfast, and unless they were all having breakfast before sunrise, which was not protocol at Hogwarts, Remus would no longer be a werewolf at that time. If Aurors were out looking for Sirius - they'd already been doing so between the time Sirius escaped up till then. Also, the children would hardly go out into the forest to warn the Aurors about the werewolf, so while the information might be spread among students, there would be no reason that any Aurors would become any the wiser based on Snape telling the children. I would have to conclude that Snape didn't have the Auror's safety in mind at the time he gave the information to his students - foremost because Remus was likely back by then.

Equally importantly, Fudge knew Remus was a werewolf by the time Sirius escaped and if he did set up a search (which there is no evidence he did at that time) he could inform his men, in confidence - without giving out any names, that a werewolf might be on the loose in the forest. Indeed, he might inform them in confidence that Centaurs, Spiders and all manner of other dangers might cause problems for them in the forbidden forest and to take care. However, I think the Aurors already understood its dangers. So Fudge didn't require any assistance from the Slytherin students in warning the Aurors, who would already know there were many dangers to be faced in the forest.

3) And what kind of Minister of Magic would then allow Remus to KEEP that job? After endangering 3 students. Remus was out of a job no matter what Snape said or didn't.

For me, Remus losing his job wasn't the issue. He resigned of his own accord and the DADA position was cursed and he'd have to go on account of that in some way (which at least Dumbledore knew). So Remus was going to go whether the Ministry forced him to or not.

The problem in my opinion is that Snape afforded the information that Remus was a werewolf to the WW at large. This would have detrimental social and economical ramifications on Lupin. In my opinion, it resulted in having life and death ramifications later when Lupin and his family were marked for Death by Voldemort in Chapter 1 DH. Snape could not foresee the latter circumstance, but he knew or should have known that Lupin would suffer social and economic ramifications by virtue of wide spread knowledge of his condition.

4) Lastly IF Snape does NOT warn the Slytherins, how is he to get any info out of any of their parents in his KNOWN future as a spy. Peter has escaped exactly as the prophecy said. That means the rest of the prophecy follows - Voldy WILL be coming back. Snape cannot afford to NOT out Remus and be an effective spy in the future.

I don't understand the issue being raised in this question. Snape was purporting to work for Dumbledore and it was his boss who made him keep the secret. That in fact was Snape's excuse for returning to Voldemort late and working for Dumbledore all along in Voldemort's absence - to remain on good terms with Dumbledore. So that would be Snape's reason for keeping the secret all year, including at the end.

Additionally, why would Remus being a werewolf that had taught the DEs kids (and all the kids) matter to Voldemort at all? At most, imo, it would be something Snape might mention to Voldemort when he returned and Remus was fighting against him in the Order. I mean, what kind of accusation would the DEs make against Snape? That he didn't warn the former DEs that their children were being taught by a werewolf? I feel Voldemort would simply conclude that Snape wasn't just endangering the DE kids, but all the kids, and that Snape hated or didn't care about the welfare of the kids. I don't think Voldemort would care - he didn't show any particular interest in the welfare of kids either.

*****

In my view, Snape simply wanted revenge as he stated in POA when he came upon Lupin and Black. His revenge was thwarted in the shack and I feel it became enlarged at that point to include the trio because of their united attack on him (POA-SOLV). The next day, Snape continued to try to obtain it in various ways - suggesting Harry should be suspended or expelled for fraternizing with a murderer and werewolf (although he also claimed Harry was confunded which rather contradicted that accusation); he tried to blame Harry for Sirius' escape and continued to insist Sirius was guilty and Remus as well for helping him - knowing Dumbledore was opposing him in all of this, imo. When all of that failed, he took revenge in the only way left open to him and that was against Remus, by allowing the information that he was a werewolf to get out to the Wizard World at large, understanding the social and economical ramifications that would have upon Lupin, imo. (POA HS/OPA)

One final point is that Lupin forgetting his potion one time in extraordinary circumstances, after remembering it numerous times throughout the year, is no basis for becoming frantic with worry to the point where he should be outted to the wizard world at large, imo. I think it was enough for Snape to suggest to Remus and Dumbledore that Remus should leave, but that is not what Snape did, he forced the issue instead.

To me it would be like saying that when Snape became similarly incensed in heightened circumstances over the pensieve and shoved Harry to the floor and then threw a jar of cockroaches at his head, Harry should have reported the incident to the Ministry Hogwart's Committee and gotten Snape fired (despite Dumbledore's wishes) so that he could never behave that way again with a child in the future if heightened circumstances arose. Perhaps Harry should have, but the right thing to do would have been to go to Dumbledore and resolve the matter, not force the issue in that way, imo.

Excellent post wickedwickedboy. I totally agree with everything you are saying. Just because Lupin would have lost his job anyway, just because Lupin would have been outed anyway, doesn't mean that Snape personally has to make life more difficult for Lupin.

This is true I think. There are a lot of events in the books where we're told/shown of what happened, but not so much as to why or how. If I have my canon correct, the only reason I can tell for why Lupin forgot to take his potion in the first place was that he saw Pettigrew on the Marauders map and tried to investigate, hence the Shrieking Shack scene in Book 3. Other than that, he was doing a good job. But he took responsibility for his mistake, as he should. And it wouldn't surprise me if Snape did what he did out of spite. There are examples in the books where he does and says things that are just mean spirited, so to me it would have been part of his character.

I might agree with this (the underlined portion) if this were the first time we see Prof. Snape delivering the Wolfsbane; it's not. Whether this means that Lupin expects the potioneer to personally deliver his meds or he occasionally forgets, we have no way of knowing. IMO Lupin might (subconsciously or not) wait till the last moment just to get up Snape's nose; just as he refused to drink the dose in front of Snape in the first scene.

This thread is very close to getting a time out. I suggest you all check the tone of your post before you hit the submit reply button.

A few new thoughts on this subject occurred to me today while coming back from work.

1) The Full Moon is more than ONE day long - presumably Remus would again turn into a werewolf on the very same night (and the next one after it) after the morning Snape 'outed' Remus. IF so, then Snape was not just 'outing' him to prevent him from returning as a teacher in the next year, but to ensure that all of his Slytherin charges stayed safely away from wherever they might run into Remus THAT night!

2) Snape goes to the Willow solely because he saw Remus running down the tunnel. He does not KNOW whether Sirius will be at the other end or not, but he 'suspects' Remus is going to meet him. It is after all the last Full Moon of the year and the night before the very last Hogsmeade visit. And there have been 'suspicious' (to Snape) incidents happening around every Hogsmeade visit that year (and many of the Full Moons)

When Snape gets there, he discovers the Invisibility Cloak. This leads to one conclusion. Harry is down at the other end - suddenly it isn't about sneaking down the tunnel to eavesdrop on whatever plans Remus and Sirius might be making for the next day. Now it's about a rescue.

And the one thing that had never occurred to me before today? Snape has to wonder HOW Harry knew how to get past the Willow. After all, Snape did not watch (on the Map) as Sirius dragged Ron down the tunnel, nor would he know that Harry and Hermione saw how to get past the Willow by watching Sirius with Ron. As far as Snape knows, the only person who might have given Harry the info on getting past the Willow would be Remus himself.

Therefore, Snape would then believe that Remus was running down that tunnel to meet HARRY as pre-arranged by Remus himself (who else would have told Harry how to get in? - remeber this is in Snape's mind). For Snape, it's like facing the Werewolf Incident all over again - only with Harry as the one being tricked into meeting a werewolf and Snape playing James the rescuer. After all, the trick 'almost' worked before, why not try it again?

3) Both Remus and Snape presumably had 2 exams to give that day. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. We know that Remus could not have seen Sirius dragging Peter (with Ron) down the tunnel until after sunset because it happened after Buckbeak was supposed to be executed. It's June in the relatively far north. That means close to 9:00 for sunset - and sometime after for Remus to actually SEE Peter's name pop up.

Therefore, Remus had 'probably' at least 3 hours (depends upon how long it took him to clean up his 'obstacle' course exam IF that was the exam he held in the afternoon - we know he held that exam in the morning for Harry's class, but we do not know which year/class had his afternoon exam, so we don't know whether he had the same 'practical' exam or a written one for his 6th years even). Anyways - probably 3 hours in which to go get his potion - including 'dinner' when he could have just met up with Snape and walked down with him.

A few new thoughts on this subject occurred to me today while coming back from work.

1) The Full Moon is more than ONE day long - presumably Remus would again turn into a werewolf on the very same night (and the next one after it) after the morning Snape 'outed' Remus. IF so, then Snape was not just 'outing' him to prevent him from returning as a teacher in the next year, but to ensure that all of his Slytherin charges stayed safely away from wherever they might run into Remus THAT night!
Isn't that a bit egoistic of Snape then just to warn his Slytherins, instead of all Hogwarts Students?

2) Snape goes to the Willow solely because he saw Remus running down the tunnel. He does not KNOW whether Sirius will be at the other end or not, but he 'suspects' Remus is going to meet him. It is after all the last Full Moon of the year and the night before the very last Hogsmeade visit. And there have been 'suspicious' (to Snape) incidents happening around every Hogsmeade visit that year (and many of the Full Moons)
What? Where? I'm sorry but I haven't the books with me, so could you please provide me with the quotes from the books where something like this was said? :)

When Snape gets there, he discovers the Invisibility Cloak. This leads to one conclusion. Harry is down at the other end - suddenly it isn't about sneaking down the tunnel to eavesdrop on whatever plans Remus and Sirius might be making for the next day. Now it's about a rescue.
I honestly doubt that Snape was caring much for the trio when he entered the Shack. First, he only saw Remus running to the Willow, so he purely ran after him, possibly because he thought that he's going to meet up with Sirius. So like I see it was his only thought at the moment was framing Remus and Sirius. With his old grudge against them, it would be no wonder. I don't think that this thought changed when he saw the Cloak lying there. IMO was his grudge against the Marauders too deep.

A few other points:
1. Snape gets the cloak and hides under it, sneakes upon the trio and marauders and eavesdroppes on them. If he were so eager to rescue Harry, why not bursting into the room and get them out of there? He rather spent some time listening to them.

2. He was being snarky at Harry, thanking him for the cloak, which for me sounded as if he thanked him for the possibility to be able to sneak upon them. There was no sign of concern at all. He even threatened them with expelling.

3. When Remus ask him if a old school boys grudge is worth putting an innocent in Azkaban, Snape exploded, which also indicates for me that he was purely after Remus and Sirius. To quote himself: "Revenge is really sweet."

This doesn't sound like a rescue mission to me at all, at least not as first priority. :no:

All my opinion based on what we are shown in the text.

A few new thoughts on this subject occurred to me today while coming back from work.

1) The Full Moon is more than ONE day long - presumably Remus would again turn into a werewolf on the very same night (and the next one after it) after the morning Snape 'outed' Remus. IF so, then Snape was not just 'outing' him to prevent him from returning as a teacher in the next year, but to ensure that all of his Slytherin charges stayed safely away from wherever they might run into Remus THAT night!

2) Snape goes to the Willow solely because he saw Remus running down the tunnel. He does not KNOW whether Sirius will be at the other end or not, but he 'suspects' Remus is going to meet him. It is after all the last Full Moon of the year and the night before the very last Hogsmeade visit. And there have been 'suspicious' (to Snape) incidents happening around every Hogsmeade visit that year (and many of the Full Moons)

When Snape gets there, he discovers the Invisibility Cloak. This leads to one conclusion. Harry is down at the other end - suddenly it isn't about sneaking down the tunnel to eavesdrop on whatever plans Remus and Sirius might be making for the next day. Now it's about a rescue.

And the one thing that had never occurred to me before today? Snape has to wonder HOW Harry knew how to get past the Willow. After all, Snape did not watch (on the Map) as Sirius dragged Ron down the tunnel, nor would he know that Harry and Hermione saw how to get past the Willow by watching Sirius with Ron. As far as Snape knows, the only person who might have given Harry the info on getting past the Willow would be Remus himself.

Therefore, Snape would then believe that Remus was running down that tunnel to meet HARRY as pre-arranged by Remus himself (who else would have told Harry how to get in? - remeber this is in Snape's mind). For Snape, it's like facing the Werewolf Incident all over again - only with Harry as the one being tricked into meeting a werewolf and Snape playing James the rescuer. After all, the trick 'almost' worked before, why not try it again?

3) Both Remus and Snape presumably had 2 exams to give that day. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. We know that Remus could not have seen Sirius dragging Peter (with Ron) down the tunnel until after sunset because it happened after Buckbeak was supposed to be executed. It's June in the relatively far north. That means close to 9:00 for sunset - and sometime after for Remus to actually SEE Peter's name pop up.

Therefore, Remus had 'probably' at least 3 hours (depends upon how long it took him to clean up his 'obstacle' course exam IF that was the exam he held in the afternoon - we know he held that exam in the morning for Harry's class, but we do not know which year/class had his afternoon exam, so we don't know whether he had the same 'practical' exam or a written one for his 6th years even). Anyways - probably 3 hours in which to go get his potion - including 'dinner' when he could have just met up with Snape and walked down with him.

I would have to disagree with this because the text shows otherwise.

First - the events in the Shrieking Shack occurred on the last day of exams, which was the beginning of the weekend. The cycle of the full moon is three days and, from what we are shown, that was the first day of the full moon. However, Lupin would not have been around the students for the remaining days because it was a weekend. The following day, there were no classes and they had one final visit to Hogsmeade - the trio opted not to go. Any remaining classes would have been in the following week - after the cycle of the full moon was over - so the students would not be in any danger. They only had about a week or so left in the term so there would be no further concerns about the full moon for that school year.

Not to mention that the students were not allowed to be out on the grounds - or even roaming around the castle - during the hours the moon would be out regardless. There was a curfew at Hogwarts. Lupin was not a danger during the day - only at night when the students were supposed to be in their respective houses anyway. In going down to Hagrid's that night, the trio were breaking school rules by being out of bounds.

Second - from what we are shown in the text, Snape was not aware that Harry had an Invisibility cloak until that night in the Shrieking Shack when he would have overheard Lupin saying Harry had been wearing his father's old cloak. If Snape had been aware that Harry had an Invisibility cloak, then Lupin would not have been able to cover for him when Snape caught him coming back from Hogsmeade after Draco saw his head floating there. Snape could not prove his suspicions because he did not know that Harry had the cloak and Harry did not have it on him at the time, IMO. As such, finding the cloak at the base of the tree would not be evidence that Harry was there. Given that Snape did not yet know about the Marauders becoming animagi, the more logical conclusion would have been for Snape to suspect that the cloak belonged to Sirius and he had been using that to get into the castle. As is explained in the text, Snape rushed down to the Whomping Willow because he believed that Lupin was meeting Sirius there. He was not aware that the trio was there until he had actually gotten into the shack - at which point he would have heard them yelling from the floor above since he was right behind Lupin - less than a couple of minutes - as Harry and Hermione see when they use the time-turner.

Third - if the safety of the students had been Snape's concern, then why did he wait until the end of the year when exams had been completed and there was no further risk to say anything? The idea that Lucius - or any of Snape's other Death Eater friends with kids attending Hogwarts - would be grateful to him for not saying anything for the entire year makes no sense. It would be more likely for them to be very upset with him for not saying anything prior to that.

If the student's safety had been Snape's concern, then it would have been a simple matter for him to contact Lucius privately via owl or even the floo network at the beginning of term. That would have allowed Lucius to deal with the matter without drawing any attention to Snape breaking his promise to Dumbledore not to tell anyone that Lupin was a werewolf. Having Snape on the inside with Dumbledore's trusting him was useful to them even without Voldemort around - and the possibility of Voldemort returning only made Snape's position even more important to them. Naturally, they would expect Snape to do whatever necessary to stay in Dumbledore's good graces. As such, handling the situation discreetly would have been the more logical course of action because that would not have drawn attention to Snape breaking his word to Dumbledore.

Fourth - to address one of the points you mentioned before - the Ministry had no say whatsoever in how Dumbledore chose to run Hogwarts. Dumbledore was free to hire whomever he chose for any teaching position and there was nothing Fudge could do about that. That was established in OOTP when Fudge had to put forth all of those decrees to try and give the Ministry more control at Hogwarts - and that was part of why the public cried out for his resignation when it was revealed that he had been doing that to try and hide the fact that Voldemort had returned. Fudge knew that Lupin was a werewolf - that was mentioned in the part of the conversation that Harry overheard as he was waking up in the hospital wing - but he showed no concern over Lupin being a werewolf. His concern was whether or not Lupin had been helping Sirius. Once Dumbledore convinced Fudge that was not the case and Lupin had been trying to save the kids, Fudge was satisfied.

Also on that note - if Aurors had been asked to search the Hogwarts grounds and the Forbidden Forest, they would have been prepared to face such dangers regardless. The Forbidden Forest was forbidden because it was known to be home to dangerous creatures - i.e. the acromantula. In PS/SS, Draco Malfoy mentions that he heard there were werewolves in the forest - which Hagrid later confirmed when Harry asked him if a werewolf could have hurt the unicorn and Hagrid said they weren't fast enough. So there was no need to give any further warning other than to remind the Aurors that there were many dangerous creatures living in the forest and to be prepared for any possibility.

And, last - Lupin forgot to take the potion on one occasion. Terrible timing given the events that occurred that night, but the circumstances explain why he forgot. It was exam week so he would have been busy preparing for his exams - it is most likely that the majority of his exams were similar to what he designed for the third year class with adjustments to fit whatever the other years had studied to that point. It is likely that he would have been clearing up any remainders from the practical exams that afternoon.

In addition, he was aware that Buckbeak's execution was set for that evening and that Harry was worried about it. He explained to Harry himself that he had been watching the map that evening because he was worried that Harry would attempt to go down to Hagrid's because of the execution. At that point, he still thought that Sirius was guilty so his worry for Harry would have been towards the possibility of Sirius hurting him. Then he saw Pettigrew on the map and the shock of that overrode everything else. Pettigrew was believed to be dead. I think it is understandable that the shock from that drove everything else from his mind - everything he had believed for 12 years turned out to be wrong and seeing Pettigrew's name on the map was the first step in that realization. Given the circumstances, I would find it more difficult to believe if he had remembered the potion.

It was never Snape's place to make any decisions regarding whether Lupin was allowed to teach at Hogwarts or who knew about his condition. Whether Lupin chose to resign himself or the curse on the DADA position would cause him to lose his job is irrelevant because it was never Snape's place to make that decision - that was down to Dumbledore and/or Lupin. I would say, if anything, that only proves that it was a petty, vindictive move on Snape's part because it was not necessary at all. The people who needed to know about Lupin being a werewolf and had the right to make decisions regarding that did know - Lupin, Dumbledore, and Fudge. Any decision regarding Lupin's job, whether he was guilty of helping Sirius after examining the evidence, or who would be told he was a werewolf was up to them - not Snape. Snape had no right or authority to reveal Lupin's secret to anyone.

Snape's decision to tell the Slytherins about Lupin being a werewolf was explained on page. He chose to do that because he was angry about what had happened the night before with Sirius escaping, suspecting that Harry had somehow helped Sirius escape, and being furious with Dumbledore for working against him in regards to Sirius and convincing Fudge that Lupin had been trying to save the kids so that he wasn't punished as Snape wanted either. As Lupin told Harry the next day, Dumbledore convincing Fudge that Lupin had not been helping Sirius, but was actually trying to save the kids was the last straw for Snape and that's what led to him letting it slip during breakfast that Lupin was a werewolf.

I think Jo explained all of that very clearly on page and used this incident to establish just how deep Snape's animosity towards the Marauders ran. He had convinced himself that Sirius had been trying to kill him all those years before with the werewolf prank and that James and Lupin were in on it. Snape explains that on page himself in his comments to Dumbledore. He wanted Sirius and Lupin to be punished for what he perceived as attempted murder towards him when they were students and, when he was thwarted in that goal, he got his revenge against Dumbledore and Lupin by letting it slip during breakfast that morning that Lupin was a werewolf, IMO.

What? Where? I'm sorry but I haven't the books with me, so could you please provide me with the quotes from the books where something like this was said? :)

'You forgot to take your Potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did ... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it, told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passage way and out of sight.'

1. Snape gets the cloak and hides under it, sneaks upon the trio and marauders and eavesdroppes on them. If he were so eager to rescue Harry, why not bursting into the room and get them out of there? He rather spent some time listening to them.

He entered at once. The door opens and closes on its own, but no one makes the connection that it could be someone under the invisibility cloak. The time Snape takes to position himself in a place where he can attack without harming the Trio, is the time Lupin talks about him being a werewolf and the werewolf incident; and then Snape pulls off the invisibility cloak and points his wand at Lupin's face IMO.

Personally, I wish Rowling had found a place to give us a clearer view of events.

From what we know, Snape might have deliberately ordered his House into the common room, given them the information, then added, "If anyone asks, I let this slip by accident."

Or, he was tired, stressed, and still very worked up about everything that happened and he really did let it slip, possibly in response to an innocent question like, "Where's Professor Lupin?" or "Professor, why do we have to learn to brew Wolfsbane Potion? Who around here needs it?"

Or something somewhere between.

Or even, for all we know, acting on Dumbledore's orders to earn himself a few points with the right Slytherins.

Any of these are possible. I know we all have strong feelings on the matter - very strong feelings - but it has me banging my head sometimes that Rowling knows the answer and couldn't find a place to put it in, or forgot to put it in - or is maybe really, really enjoying watching us still fighting it out (she does have a bit of a mischievious streak, you know]).

My bet is on couldn't squeeze it in. When I try to imagine it getting into the pensieve scenes in DH, it always sounds like a joke, "This is what your mother meant to me, this is why I killed the man who was like a father to me - oh, and this is why I caused Lupin grief."

Don't get me wrong. Obviously, what happened was important, as is what it would tell us about where everyone was coming from. But it doesn't fit there, especially not with Snape who is a very self-contained sort of person. Speaking as the kind of person who feels awful when I can't apologize for something - and even worse if I realize I didn't know I'd done something I should apologize over (or, worse, that my apology wasn't good enough) - I'm aware of the opposite type, the person who feels that apologizing is inherently dishonest. Actions show who you are. If you regret past actions, all you can do is act differently in the future and try to make up for it.

And, if you can't make up for it, too bad. That's your problem, it's not the problem of the person you can never make it up to.

For a person like that, adding in and explanation about outing Lupin (assuming he had regretted outing him or had only done it by accident) has nothing to do with the things he needs Harry to understand. It's that kind of apology that seems like lying because the knowledge does nothing for the person you're giving it to (except maybe make them feel like forgiving you even though you haven't made up for what you did - which means it's just manipulation on your part which makes it lying ).

And, if he didn't regret it at all and even has smiley faces all over his journal in his entry about this event, well, it's not like mentioning that to Harry in his dying memories would benefit anyone.

Double bind. If the better view of Snape is correct, he wouldn't tell at that point. If the worse - or even worst - views are correct, he wouldn't tell at that point.

Of course (cough, cough), if [I]someone hadn't killed off Lupin, it would have made perfect sense for him to tell us after the battle, wouldn't it?

3. When Remus ask him if a old school boys grudge is worth putting an innocent in Azkaban, Snape exploded, which also indicates for me that he was purely after Remus and Sirius.

I guess that show's just how much difference interpretation can make. I have always felt that indicated the exact opposit thing! :)

To me Severus exploded because his reasons were deep very personal ones (ie Capturing Lily's betrayer & his accomplace) and when soemone misjudged what they were & labled them petty he exploded.

To me that seems far more likely - but I'm guessing you think the same thing about your interpretation so we probably won't agree. :)

When I first read PoA, my interpretation was that Snape did want revenge on Remus and Sirius for their old schoolboy feud. At the same time, this seemed so incredibly over the top to me that I thought there had to be something more to it than that!

My view of Snape began to adjust a lot after GoF. Especially as he and Sirius didn't kill each other at first sight, after Sirius realised Severus was working for the Order. :lol:

And Severus realised that Sirius wasn't, of course, the guy responsible for betraying Lily. :cool:

Therefore after reading DH, I now have a different view of the events in the Shack. :cool:

As Jo intended, I believe. ;)

Clever Jo. :D

Severus did stuff that helped kill Lily, so he is partly to blame.

I still love him though, i thought many times he was trying to look out for Harry but he also hated him. He [imo] wished he was Harry's father, because then he'd have something to connect him moreso with Lily. Then there's the fact that Harry was a constant reminder of James [not just lily], and let's not forget that James used to bully Severus in school. It's only natural to have some feelings still there, but yeah i think his want to protect Harry for Lily was proved time and again :)

Welcome to the thread, thelovelybones. :wave:

He [imo] wished he was Harry's father, because then he'd have something to connect him moreso with Lily.

Not sure about that, myself. :hmm: Although it's fascinating to speculate. ;)

And I agree with you on the rest. :D :)

Any of these are possible. I know we all have strong feelings on the matter - very strong feelings - but it has me banging my head sometimes that Rowling knows the answer and couldn't find a place to put it in, or forgot to put it in - or is maybe really, really enjoying watching us still fighting it out (she does have a bit of a mischievious streak, you know]).

I lean towards a different explanation. She deliberately left us in the dark, and wrote it in such as way as to permit the worst possible construction to be placed on Snape's actions.

Why? Because it helped make her suprise work, of course! :lol:

I'm not really in the "it's all just Harry's story and no one else matters" camp, but in this case, I do think that is the answer. The way she has written the events in PoA, we know exactly what Harry knows about what happens, and any conclusions he draws, we are invited to draw as well. Not because they are necessaarily true, or the book contains objective "proof" that those conclusionsa re correct, but because putting us in Harry's shoes and sharing with us Harry's perspective, influences our understanding.

We remain free to consider Harry may be wrong (by, for example, weighing in our own minds what Snape knew when, clearly something Harry never gave much thought to in PoA). Just as later, we may feel Harry's naming of little Al came "out of nowhere" and Harry actually knew plenty of braver people than Snape. :)

My bet is on couldn't squeeze it in. When I try to imagine it getting into the pensieve scenes in DH, it always sounds like a joke, "This is what your mother meant to me, this is why I killed the man who was like a father to me - oh, and this is why I caused Lupin grief."

Exactly. The memories of "The Prince's Tale" are not there to explain and/or excuse every thing in the world Harry or the reader may disapprove of regarding Snape, staring with his personal hygiene and ending with his murder of Dumbledore. They focus on the big picture, the ways in which Snape's actions had a huge impact on Harry's life. So they look at actions that rise to the level of criminality/evil, and convey either the story of Snape's true and lasting remorse for them, or (in the case of his actions in the second war) explain the necessity of those actions in the struggle against Voldemort or protection of Harry.

I loved all of your post, BTW! :tu:

He was being snarky at Harry, thanking him for the cloak, which for me sounded as if he thanked him for the possibility to be able to sneak upon them. There was no sign of concern at all. He even threatened them with expelling.
Sometimes a thank you is just a thank you, and I think that's the case with Harry's invisibility cloak.

The threat of expulsion is simple because the Shrieking Shack was supposed to be off-limits, and maybe Snape is again thinking of the fact that the Marauders were never expelled for knowing how to stop the Whomping Willow. Fred and George had also tried to get in, but couldn't.

"Even the Hogwarts ghosts avoid it," said Ron as they leaned on the fence, looking up at it. "I asked Nearly Headless Nick...he says he's heard a very rough crowd lives here. No one can get in. Fred and George tried, obviously, but all the entrances are sealed shut...."

I think Hwyla has a good point that Snape must have assumed that Lupin told the kids how to stop the Whomping Willow, because only a limited few (Dumbledore, Snape, Madam Pomfrey) know how it was done. And the only possible reasons for telling them would be to lure them in there because he was a werewolf, or to lure them in there because Sirius was in there waiting to kill Harry (which was the conventional wisdom in the Wizarding World at the time). I'm not saying Snape was right, but that he was making logical assumptions before he runs to the Shack. Just my opinion.

Snape had no idea that eventually Lupin would leave the Shack before he transformed because that was in the future. For all he knew, Lupin was going to keep the kids in there until the moon came up and he transformed, and then the kids would be trapped. So that's why he threatened them when Harry refused to leave and go back to the castle, in my opinion.

Time was of the essence because the moon was going to rise ~ which is interesting because we actually see everything happen twice because of the Time Turner. :)

I have always felt that the reason so many scene with Snape were written ambiguously or with lack of exact details is that JKR needed Snape to be the classic misunderstood anti-hero.

He is the classic literary model of a scapegoat. She wrote him and all the events around him in such a way to leave the worse possible impression- yet left enough things open-ended and vague and non-exact for the direct purpose of allowing those events to be re-read and re-interpreted after all the facts about Snape's motives are known post -DH. It's a pretty typical writing strategy when it comes to mysteries and dramas that rely on narrative misdirection. Obviously if she had laid everything out there- there would be no mystery or mis-reading of Snape that Harry could reflect back upon.

She wanted the readers to identify with Harry and identify with his wrong assumptions. His bias, his prejudices. The way he "sees" things is not always correct. It's not until Harry is adult that he begins to see the whole 360º view of many people in his life.

In the end, one could also argue, that JKR didn't make clear enough - or didn't want to make clear- to many readers how and why Snape would come to be idolized by Harry so many years later. This provides controversy. Rowling's purpose was not to dictate how the readers should feel about a character- but to present a story and let them feel how they want.

Excellent posted meesha1971! :tu: :tu: :tu: You perfectly summed up everything I wanted to say! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts, thanks for posting!

When I first read PoA, my interpretation was that Snape did want revenge on Remus and Sirius for their old schoolboy feud. At the same time, this seemed so incredibly over the top to me that I thought there had to be something more to it than that! The 'over the top' bit is exactly why I believed it was about the Potters' death - at least as soon as Snape spit out his bit to Harry about how he would have died for trusting Sirius. We had never seen Snape as out of control as he was in this incident. Not even when a firework was thrown into a potion (a possibly truly dangerous action that luckly turned out to not be). He's practically spitting nails. I was truly waiting for a spectacular 'hissy fit' from Rickman that never happened in the movie.

And he's still so angry afterwards, that Fudge thinks he might be a bit 'unhinged'. But he does an abrupt about face and shuts up as soon as Albus hints that he might have had something to do with Sirius' escape. IF he's all that livid over the 'grudge' then he would still be shouting. In MY opinion, he stops because he's gotten the hint that there really is MORE to the situation than he knows.

I also compare it to the night Sirius first got into the castle. Snape reminds Albus that Sirius (in Snape's eyes) was capable of murder at 16 and Albus brushes him off a bit - but there isn't any kind of 'fit' over the 'prank' It doesn't anger him SO much that he's making a fool of himself.

And remember this is SNAPE. The man cannot stand to let his emotions show. To have such an enormous hissy-fit over something like getting even for pranks would be supremely unlikely for him. And IF he is - then why hasn't he been doing so all year with Remus?

I think most people just don't understand Snape's point-of-view here. He's been watching Remus all year. At least, since that first Hogsmeade visit when he finds Remus 'chumming' up to Harry over tea. On that very same night Sirius breaks in and slashes the Gryffindor Lady. Snape sees this as connected (we however know it was not). He even mentions just that on that same night. He believed Remus let Sirius in. And earlier that day he saw Remus becoming 'friendly' with Harry at a time when there were very few possible witnesses around. And at a time when Harry was feeling down and lonely for not being allowed to go to Hogsmeade.

On the NEXT Hogsmeade visit, Snape catches Harry acting suspiciously at the entrance to a tunnel to Hogsmeade. We cannot know whether Snape KNEW that was an entrance or if he just suspected it was or if the way Harry was acting just made him wonder. But especially in hindsight, when Harry WAS discovered to be in Hogsmeade on the NEXT Hogsmeade visit, Snape would begin to wonder just WHO told Harry HOW to sneak out.

And Snape is quite angry over Harry's having gone to Hogsmeade. He sounds the most like a parent scolding their child in this one instance than any other. About how the whole of Hogwarts is trying to protect Harry and he puts himself in danger anyways. IF I recall correctly, I think this is even the first time he compares Harry to James (at least to verbally to Harry)

In retrospect, we now know Snape had made it his top priority to protect Harry. And Sirius Black, (who everyone believes betrayed the Potters and then killed 13 people) has escaped Azkaban with the expressed mumblings that 'he's at Hogswart'. Snape is not the only one to assume Black wants to kill Harry. He's on high alert.

Hogsmeade Visit #1 - he found Remus making friends with Harry and then believed Remus also let Sirius into the castle that very same night

Hogsmeade Visit #2 - he's suspicious about Harry lurking around acting suspiciously himself. In retrospect, if not at the time, he probably realizes Harry is trying to sneak out. IF so, then he would suspect Remus as the one to tell Harry how to get out. Doesn't matter that Remus did not. It is what Snape suspects.

Hogsmeade Visit #3 - Harry has been seen in Hogsmeade. Since it's just his 'head' that is seen, this is also the first time Snape might now KNOW Harry has an Invisibility Cloak. What Harry also has is some kind of Paper that is from the Marauders. He outright accuses Remus of giving it to Harry in order to lure him outside. Remus attempts to 'joke' it off by saying it came from Zonko's. Snape is well aware it is a lie since he has read the nicknames. Names that we learn in bk5 that the Marauders used even in Public.

And we also have Christmas with a broom from an unknown source. How would anyone outside of Hogwarts KNOW Harry needed a new broom? Snape suspects Remus of supplying the info to Sirius. He has no way of knowing that Sirius had been at the game himself and so knew a broom would be 'handy'. And it isn't as if a jinxed broom hadn't already been tried as a way of killing Harry - and if Snape hadn't been there, it would have worked. So, Snape sees this again as Remus helping Sirius to get to Harry.

Then there's one more attempt on Harry (from Snape's viewpoint) and Sirius actually made it into the boy's dorm room, he was just at the wrong bed (Snape's view). Somehow (actually Crookshanks) Sirius got ahold of a list of passwords in Neville's writing. Note that Remus was also very 'kind' to Neville - at least in Snape's eyes (Boggart class). Snape would see that as opportunity for Remus to get his hands on that list.

Then there's a long break without incident. Until the week of exams, the last full moon and the last Hogsmeade Visit all in one week. And what happens? Remus does not come to get his potion. Snape waits for him to do so. From earlier in the book we know the taking of the potion is either a daily thing that begins several days before the Full Moon (in which case neglecting just one dose ruins the effectiveness) OR one dose taken even 5 days ahead is enough to take. We don't know which.

So, either Remus DID take his daily doses everyday that week, despite giving 2 exams each day and just didn't come take the LAST one, even though the day was the same as the others (a morning and an afternoon exam to give) or Snape has been waiting for Remus to come get his dose for several days. We just don't know which.

Either way, Remus had several hours to go get his potion between the end of afternoon exams and sundown (approx 9:00 pm that far north in June). He probably even went to dinner in the Great Hall during that time. Which would seem the most likely time to go down to the dungeon and get his potion (he's already downstairs). But he doesn't.

So - the 'evidence' (as far as Snape sees it) all points to Remus having worked with Sirius all year to both 'gain Harry's trust', give Sirius inside information, tell Harry info just how to get out of the castle and actually let Sirius IN twice. Then he sees Remus on the Map, running off towards Hogsmeade on the night before the LAST Hogsmeade Visit. There's still time for a little 'planning session' between Sirius and Remus. Snape decides to go follow.

Horrors! He finds the Cloak. This indicates that not only is Harry down there, but that Harry entered on his own (Snape knows nothing about the actual way it happened) implying that Remus pre-arranged a meeting with Harry in the Shack on the Full Moon, without having taken his potion.

I just cannot see WHY, with all that Snape believed had happened that year implicating Remus, he would ever listen to him that night in the Shack, when Snape believes he has now just caught him red-handed! And Remus (not knowing Snape's belief that Remus was abetting an escaped mass murderer) is talking about old history.

WHEN Remus gets to the point where he says that Snape believed Remus was 'in on' the Werewolf Incident AND Snape sees what is happening as a REPEAT of said incident (with Harry as young Snape). THAT's when Snape announces himself. Because he sees Remus as 'in on it' again!

She wanted the readers to identify with Harry and identify with his wrong assumptions. His bias, his prejudices. The way he "sees" things is not always correct. It's not until Harry is adult that he begins to see the whole 360º view of many people in his life.

In the end, one could also argue, that JKR didn't make clear enough - or didn't want to make clear- to many readers how and why Snape would come to be idolized by Harry so many years later. This provides controversy. Rowling's purpose was not to dictate how the readers should feel about a character- but to present a story and let them feel how they want.

I think that's why she warned readers before DH came out that not everyone would like the ending, but she was going to leave it the way she had written it years before. I feel that Albus Severus was always planned to be there, and I believe the "bravest man" quote was always going to be there, too. So it couldn't have come out of nowhere if she had that chapter in a vault for ten years.

The memories of "The Prince's Tale" are not there to explain and/or excuse every thing in the world Harry or the reader may disapprove of regarding Snape, staring with his personal hygiene and ending with his murder of Dumbledore. They focus on the big picture, the ways in which Snape's actions had a huge impact on Harry's life. So they look at actions that rise to the level of criminality/evil, and convey either the story of Snape's true and lasting remorse for them, or (in the case of his actions in the second war) explain the necessity of those actions in the struggle against Voldemort or protection of Harry.
Yes, I think showing "necessity" is a good way of putting it. :agree:

Snape loses it in the Shrieking Shack, and yet it is the only time we see Snape behave that in that over the top way with Sirius. If his behaviour in the Shack was all about the schoolboy grudge, then why did he not continue to behave in that way around Sirius when they were both working for the Order. Yes, Snape was snarky towards Sirius, but never again do we see him behave in a similar way as he did in the Shack. I just think that the evidence points to there being something more to Snape's behaviour in the Shack, and I think that something is Lily.

He is the classic literary model of a scapegoat. She wrote him and all the events around him in such a way to leave the worse possible impression- yet left enough things open-ended and vague and non-exact for the direct purpose of allowing those events to be re-read and re-interpreted after all the facts about Snape's motives are known post -DH. It's a pretty typical writing strategy when it comes to mysteries and dramas that rely on narrative misdirection. Obviously if she had laid everything out there- there would be no mystery or mis-reading of Snape that Harry could reflect back upon.
Exactly, the clues are there, but we are deliberately misdirected as to Snape's real motivations.

I think the Snape character was so much like the average person at first. He was unsure of himself, and used his prejudices to make himeslf feel better. That is a natural tactic of children. Then, that vulnerablity was used by Voldemort to lure him in. Look around at the gangs that draw kids in because it makes them feel that they belong, and, through that, makes them feel stronger. The more he was picked on and criticized as a youngster, the more attractive Voldemort's group became. When Snape and Lily had their blow up, I think that sealed it until she was killed. Then, realizing he had helped bring about her death, in remorse, he turned to Dumbledore, who was the only one who could offer him a chance at redemption. I feel it was his guilt about Lily's death that caused such a reaction to Sirius in the Shaking Shack. I think, in truth, he was striking out at himself as well as Sirius, who he thought helped bring about Lily's death.

The way JKR wrote this and the way she intertwined the characters and developed Snape throughout the series was masterful. IMO

He is the classic literary model of a scapegoat. She wrote him and all the events around him in such a way to leave the worse possible impression- yet left enough things open-ended and vague and non-exact for the direct purpose of allowing those events to be re-read and re-interpreted after all the facts about Snape's motives are known post -DH. It's a pretty typical writing strategy when it comes to mysteries and dramas that rely on narrative misdirection. Obviously if she had laid everything out there- there would be no mystery or mis-reading of Snape that Harry could reflect back upon.

I completely agree with this. But, in my honest opinion, even though Snape was the misunderstood scapegoat, that doesn't mean all of his faults and mistakes were erased the moment he renounced Lord Voldemort and turned to the good side. (Just his most important faults and mistakes :lol:) I still think that Snape had moments when he was inexcusably nasty. IMO, JK wouldn't deal in absolutes like that (in a character like Snape, at least.) She needed to make him seem like the all-around bad guy before the 7th book, but that doesn't mean that after we found out about Snape's great goodness, that he actually was never mean to anyone (after he turned to the light, I mean.) IMO, Snape is the greatest human of the entire series, not just in his one big change from being a DE, but also afterward in what I think was still sometimes a great struggle for him to do good (and I think he slipped up sometimes in this struggle, too.)

I completely agree with this. But, in my honest opinion, even though Snape was the misunderstood scapegoat, that doesn't mean all of his faults and mistakes were erased the moment he renounced Lord Voldemort and turned to the good side. (Just his most important faults and mistakes :lol:) I still think that Snape had moments when he was inexcusably nasty. IMO, JK wouldn't deal in absolutes like that (in a character like Snape, at least.) She needed to make him seem like the all-around bad guy before the 7th book, but that doesn't mean that after we found out about Snape's great goodness, that he actually was never mean to anyone (after he turned to the light, I mean.) IMO, Snape is the greatest human of the entire series, not just in his one big change from being a DE, but also afterward in what I think was still sometimes a great struggle for him to do good (and I think he slipped up sometimes in this struggle, too.)
No he wasn't perfect in every way after he was redeemed. He had bad days and he struggled with a bad temper (that he learned from his own father and not Voldemort).

But I think in some ways JKR is telling us that some things were "erased" by turning to the good side. That fits the view of Christian redemption that I believe she was going for. Once someone shows that moment of remorse then their sins are forgiven. That happens over and over in the books, not just with Snape, but with any character you can name who turned to the good side even at the last minute like the Malfoys. Sirius is another good example who wasn't perfect and who could be unkind (to Kreacher for instance) but even the Ministry forgave him after death when they realized he didn't kill Muggles or Peter after all.

I also think it's important that Dumbledore was the first to forgive Snape, because he had been at that point himself when he was young. Because he could change, he knew Snape could change. Outward personality isn't the key to this because who would have ever thought Dumbledore had a dark past or was friends with Grindelwald, who was also Mr. Handsome Mischief-Maker and not apparently bad at all?

And there are plenty of people with pleasant personality traits in the books who are the most devious, fake, and nasty people - Umbridge, Lockhart, Fudge, etc.

In Christianity the change comes from within but is judged by good works and not suddenly being Mr. Perfect all the time. Snape is more associated with the idea of "the truth will set you free" or something instead of suddenly being holier than anyone else. Righteous, but not perfect.

Just my opinion.

[A few new thoughts on this subject occurred to me today while coming back from work.

1) The Full Moon is more than ONE day long - presumably Remus would again turn into a werewolf on the very same night (and the next one after it) after the morning Snape 'outed' Remus. IF so, then Snape was not just 'outing' him to prevent him from returning as a teacher in the next year, but to ensure that all of his Slytherin charges stayed safely away from wherever they might run into Remus THAT night!

The moon is full for 1 night only, the lunar cycle moves every single day.
It was 1 week till the end of term, (I reread the chapter.) Remus knew better that Snape the consequences of being bitten. IMO he never took his condition lightly.

2) Snape goes to the Willow solely because he saw Remus running down the tunnel. He does not KNOW whether Sirius will be at the other end or not, but he 'suspects' Remus is going to meet him. It is after all the last Full Moon of the year and the night before the very last Hogsmeade visit. And there have been 'suspicious' (to Snape) incidents happening around every Hogsmeade visit that year (and many of the Full Moons)

Snape saw the Map, he didn't look real close or he would have seen Pettigrew's name on it, but heat of the moment just like Remus that has to be forgiven. Snape knew exactly where Remus was during the other full moons. He was sleeping through his transformations.


When Snape gets there, he discovers the Invisibility Cloak. This leads to one conclusion. Harry is down at the other end - suddenly it isn't about sneaking down the tunnel to eavesdrop on whatever plans Remus and Sirius might be making for the next day. Now it's about a rescue.

A rescuer would have got the children out first instead of indulging in a fit of temper.

And the one thing that had never occurred to me before today? Snape has to wonder HOW Harry knew how to get past the Willow. After all, Snape did not watch (on the Map) as Sirius dragged Ron down the tunnel, nor would he know that Harry and Hermione saw how to get past the Willow by watching Sirius with Ron. As far as Snape knows, the only person who might have given Harry the info on getting past the Willow would be Remus himself.

Oh how I wish I could believe that. I thinnk the only thing on Snape's mind was Sirius. He is the one he goes after first.

Therefore, Snape would then believe that Remus was running down that tunnel to meet HARRY as pre-arranged by Remus himself (who else would have told Harry how to get in? - remeber this is in Snape's mind). For Snape, it's like facing the Werewolf Incident all over again - only with Harry as the one being tricked into meeting a werewolf and Snape playing James the rescuer. After all, the trick 'almost' worked before, why not try it again?

If Snape had been thinking 'Danger WereWolf Danger', would he have forgotton the potion?


3) Both Remus and Snape presumably had 2 exams to give that day. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. We know that Remus could not have seen Sirius dragging Peter (with Ron) down the tunnel until after sunset because it happened after Buckbeak was supposed to be executed. It's June in the relatively far north. That means close to 9:00 for sunset - and sometime after for Remus to actually SEE Peter's name pop up.

Actually it's closer to 11:30 at night. I just love those long summer nights, some times it doesn't get dark at all, and June is Midsummer Night time. Ron took Scabbers from Hagrids House when the Ministery Men got there, Trewlawnie's Prophecy said 'The Dark Lord's servant would rise before midnight. It had to be close to midnight when they came out of the tunnel and that would fit in with moonrise. The scene in the Shack would have taken at least 30-45 mins.

Therefore, Remus had 'probably' at least 3 hours (depends upon how long it took him to clean up his 'obstacle' course exam IF that was the exam he held in the afternoon - we know he held that exam in the morning for Harry's class, but we do not know which year/class had his afternoon exam, so we don't know whether he had the same 'practical' exam or a written one for his 6th years even). Anyways - probably 3 hours in which to go get his potion - including 'dinner' when he could have just met up with Snape and walked down with him

That would seem correct, leaving enough time for Snape to go get the potion and take it to Remus. That seems to have been the practice between them judging on what was already in the books. But all of this to my mind is beside the point. Snape had reason to be there in the Shack, he had a lot of reasons, whether we believe they were good reasons for his actions or not, he believed they were. I just say he was out of control. My whole point throught this entire conversation is not that he didn't have his reasons for his actions, because he did. I am saying that he had no right to expose Remus the way he did. That was wrong, IMO.

I don't buy the idea that the children were in danger from Remus. There was 1 week left to the end of term and the full moon had passed. I don't think Fudge would have exposed the fact that he knew a werewolf was teaching at Hogwarts under any circumstances. Fudge was too afraid of bad opinion to expose himself like that. I think he would have covered it up in a heartbeat as long as Remus left quietly. The more quietly the better, probably.
I think Snape acted on impulse through sheer spite. I also think he regretted it later. IMO it was an act that he was ashamed of, we all do things like it so I am not casting blame. It was a 'small mean thing', unworthy of him.

Eliza: Lupin later (in HBP) seemed to forgive Snape and told Harry not to be prejudiced against him. Lupin also expressed gratitude that Snape made the Wolfsbane Potion for him "perfectly," so the story moved on from PoA and what happened. Lupin and Snape also worked together for the Order and seemed to get along fine, and I believe Lupin did not blame him for losing his job, but even by OotP seemed to blame Fudge and Umbridge for the fact that he was unemployed.

Righteous, but not perfect.

How you worded this just made my day. :) This was exactly the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to portray Snape as a lesser man than he was. I was just pointing out that he was not perfect, as you said.

I don't want to accuse anyone, but my main reason in posting that comment was that I was concerned that some people may take the other extreme, that is, be so determined that Snape not be still thought of in a negative light that they won't hear a word against him. I think that most people now have at least a little respect for Snape. We musn't be too annoyed when it seems like people are continuing to accuse him for everything, because I doubt that's the case.

Eliza: Lupin later (in HBP) seemed to forgive Snape and told Harry not to be prejudiced against him. Lupin also expressed gratitude that Snape made the Wolfsbane Potion for him "perfectly," so the story moved on from PoA and what happened. Lupin and Snape also worked together for the Order and seemed to get along fine, and I believe Lupin did not blame him for losing his job, but even by OotP seemed to blame Fudge and Umbridge for the fact that he was unemployed.

Well yes, I made that point earlier. It was in the GOF, Christmas at the Burrow when Remus was speaking about Snape to Harry. I'm not saying that Snape shoukld be condemned to Outer Mongolia, I'm saying he should not have exposed Remus the way he did at the end of POA. That's my opinion, and as I keep saying, it was unworthy of Snape. He was capable of mor honourable behaviour. And still keep his snark.
I love his snark, I like he has that edge, and I don't look at him through a romantic haze. I'm not saying that about anyone in particular, but IMO there is more to his charactor development than TPT. Snape is very complicated and he has more layers than an onion. IMO more of those layers are sour than they are sweet, that and his mystery is why I like him so much.

...Snape saw the Map, he didn't look real close or he would have seen Pettigrew's name on it, but heat of the moment just like Remus that has to be forgiven. Snape knew exactly where Remus was during the other full moons. He was sleeping through his transformations.Actually - Peter doesn't show on the Map for Snape because Peter (and Sirius) were already in the Shack - which isn't on the Map. He didn't even see the kids f- for the same reason. He sees Remus running off the edge of the page (too far along the tunnel towards the Shack to show up on the Map)

Well yes, I made that point earlier. It was in the GOF, Christmas at the Burrow when Remus was speaking about Snape to Harry.
No, it's in Half-Blood Prince, "A Very Frosty Christmas." In GoF,

"I neither like nor dislike Severus," said Lupin. "No, Harry, I am speaking the truth," he added, as Harry pulled a skeptical expression. "We shall never be bosom friends, perhaps; after all that happened between James and Sirius and Severus, there is too much bitterness there. But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I usually do at the full moon."

"But he 'accidentally' let it slip that you're a werewolf, so you had to leave!" said Harry angrily.

Lupin shrugged. "The news would have leaked out anyway. We both know he wanted my job, but he could have wreaked much worse damage on me by tampering with the potion. He kept me healthy. I must be grateful."

"Maybe he didn't dare mess with the potion with Dumbledore watching him!" said Harry.

"You are determined to hate him, Harry," said Lupin with a faint smile. "And I understand; with James as your father, with Sirius as your godfather, you have inherited an old prejudice.

I'm not even sure Lupin is correct there about Snape wanting his job as DADA. Snape surely knew about the curse on DADA - Hagrid says in Book 2 that all the teachers knew. And basically, Lupin leaving the job didn't mean that Snape got the job anyway, as first Moody and then Umbridge took it. For one thing, Snape wasn't that easily replaced as Potions Master.

I love his snark, I like he has that edge, and I don't look at him through a romantic haze. I'm not saying that about anyone in particular, but IMO there is more to his charactor development than TPT.
I think there are seven books worth of character development. :agree:

Romantic Haze? It's in the eye of the beholder. ;) Snape is a tragic hero much like those revered by the writers of the Romantic Period in the 19th century. In that respect he is romantic, but there's also his undying love for Lily. JKR must have been a bit romantic to throw that into the mix of Snape's character development. I'm not going to argue with her about it, since I like Snape's romantic side. :love: Just my opinion.

Snark isn't all there is to Severus, and I'm glad about that.

Welcome to the thread, thelovelybones. :wave:



Not sure about that, myself. :hmm: Although it's fascinating to speculate. ;)

And I agree with you on the rest. :D :)

Thanks ^_^
And it's a possiblilty. Of course he could just dislike Harry, but he does try to save him, and Harry looks like James so there is the constant reminder there.

Actually - Peter doesn't show on the Map for Snape because Peter (and Sirius) were already in the Shack - which isn't on the Map. He didn't even see the kids f- for the same reason. He sees Remus running off the edge of the page (too far along the tunnel towards the Shack to show up on the Map)

Are you sure about that? Since James, Remus, Sirius and Wormy made the map, i thought they'd have the Shack listed since it was made for them while they were in school, and they put all passageways they knew about on the map.


I think some people are wanting to believe Severus was always good, and had Harry and the rest of the students in Hogwarts', best intentions all of the time. This isn't the case. We know he hated James and that his aim in protecting Harry was because he felt as though it would mean he had repaid Lily.

If he really was the 'nice guy' he wouldn't be giving everyone, not from Slytherin, detention and taking points off them. You've got to keep this in mind.

I think JKR intentionally wrote Snape as a flawed individual with the same shortcomings and weaknesses that others have, which made him more real. Even when he turned against Voldemort and became Dumbledore's spy, he was still Severus Snape, and was carrying all of the same baggage he had been for his whole life.

He wasn't raised to be a kind, caring, warm, fuzzy person. I think that's why his love for Lily was so deep and her death affected him the way it did, because it went against the feelings he'd usually experienced. Just my thoughts.

Actually - Peter doesn't show on the Map for Snape because Peter (and Sirius) were already in the Shack - which isn't on the Map. He didn't even see the kids for the same reason. He sees Remus running off the edge of the page (too far along the tunnel towards the Shack to show up on the Map)
Are you sure about that? Since James, Remus, Sirius and Wormy made the map, i thought they'd have the Shack listed since it was made for them while they were in school, and they put all passageways they knew about on the map.


It's explained in PoA: The passageway under the Willow was marked by the Marauders, but until the night of the full moon Harry had no idea that it would lead to the Shack. The Willow is on there, but not the Shack.

From Chapter 10 "The Marauder's Map"

This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead -

"Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked. And we don't reckon anyone's ever used this one, because the Whomping Willow's planted right over the entrance.

*snip*

From Chapter 17 "Cat Rat Dog."

"This way," said Harry, setting off, bent-backed, after Crookshanks.

"Where does this tunnel come out?" Hermione asked breathlessly from behind him.

"I don't know... It's marked on the Marauder's Map but Fred and George said no one's ever gotten into it.... It goes off the edge of the map, but it looked like it was heading for Hogsmeade..."

How you worded this just made my day. :) This was exactly the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to portray Snape as a lesser man than he was. I was just pointing out that he was not perfect, as you said.

Indeed Snape is nasty, vindictive and bitter and I have mentioned before that I completly see all these aspects of his character. However, I think JKR wrote some scenes in which she used these parts of his character to misdirect the reader so we wouldn't be alerted to his true loyalties and motivations too early in the story. I think we are supposed to look back at these particular scenes differently after TPT and say "Ah, so that's what was really going on." JKR was really very clever.



Romantic Haze? It's in the eye of the beholder. ;) Snape is a tragic hero much like those revered by the writers of the Romantic Period in the 19th century. In that respect he is romantic, but there's also his undying love for Lily. JKR must have been a bit romantic to throw that into the mix of Snape's character development. I'm not going to argue with her about it, since I like Snape's romantic side. :love: Just my opinion.

Snark isn't all there is to Severus, and I'm glad about that.

I happen to think one of the reasons Snape is such a popular character is that JKR wrote him to be a flawed human and believable.
Like all humans he has many facets to his character, not just the mean snarky teacher.

The shrieking shack is in Hogsmeade and the map only covers Hogwarts and the immediate territory; not even Hagrid's cottage IIRC.

eta: The primary purpose of the Marauders' Map was to spy on people. Since no one else knew about the Whomping Willow entrance to the Shack (other than Dumbledore and Pomfrey, of course) there was no need to put it on the map.



Has anyone here ever said everything Severus Snape does is good? Seems to me it's more like 'not everything he does is bad.' :lol:
Ah, but the actual shack is still connected to the school, so it would be logical if they had it on the map.

Okay that makes sense. lol.

And yeah actually a few, but i was reading the entire thread and forgot to quote them, my bad :scared:

It's explained in PoA: The passageway under the Willow was marked by the Marauders, but until the night of the full moon Harry had no idea that it would lead to the Shack. The Willow is on there, but not the Shack.

This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead -

"Right into Hogsmeade," said Fred, tracing one of them with his finger. "There are seven in all. Now, Filch knows about these four" -- he pointed them out -- "but we're sure we're the only ones who know about these. Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked. And we don't reckon anyone's ever used this one, because the Whomping Willow's planted right over the entrance.

*snip*

"This way," said Harry, setting off, bent-backed, after Crookshanks.

"Where does this tunnel come out?" Hermione asked breathlessly from behind him.

"I don't know... It's marked on the Marauder's Map but Fred and George said no one's ever gotten into it.... It goes off the edge of the map, but it looked like it was heading for Hogsmeade..."
Oh okay. But if it says the Willow is planted on top of the passageway then that's it?

The second bit's from when?

And the Shack isn't listed but they've for the passageways, wouldn't they have also led into the Shack?

lol, sorry if this has been covered before, i'm re-reading the series at the moment and it's got me thinking heaps :p

Ah, but the actual shack is still connected to the school, so it would be logical if they had it on the map.

Okay that makes sense. lol.

Here's the way it is: the Willow is on the School Grounds, but the Shack is in Hogsmeade. The village is not anywhere on the map. The tunnels lead to the edge of the map and that's all.

The Shack is connected to the tree on the grounds, but not to the school itself.

So the book says the Shack is not on the map or Harry would know where the tunnel was going, right? ;)

Oh okay. But if it says the Willow is planted on top of the passageway then that's it?

The second bit's from when?

And the Shack isn't listed but they've for the passageways, wouldn't they have also led into the Shack?

lol, sorry if this has been covered before, i'm re-reading the series at the moment and it's got me thinking heaps :p
The first quote is from Chapter 10 "The Marauder's Map"

The second quote is from Chapter 17 "Cat Rat Dog."

But in this case Snape also knows that he is going to risk his life to protect this kid who is much too willing to put himself in danger all the time. Harry is a risk-taker just like his Dad, and Snape is the one trying to protect him. It's maddening.

Spot on - Snape may be a bully to Harry in the earlier books, but he consistently shows his regard for Harrys ultimate well being.

Indeed, one of the finest examples is where Snape teaches Harry Occlumency. Presumably Snape knew the risk of opening his mind to Harry. Not only would he run the risk of exposing Harry to his personal feelings, but also run the risk of exposing Harrys mind to Voldemort, were Snape to be interrogated by Voldemort at some point.

It is a risk - but Snape showed his ability to take risks where they were for Harrys good.

I agree. He hated Harry and his father, which he showed Harry by his contempt in POtions class, or humiliating him. But in the end, every thing he did , changing sides at risk to his life was to keep Lily Evans son safe.
He was on DUmbledore's side the whole time, right under Voldemort's nose, having all these discussions with him, with half the death eaters waiting for an opportunity to make Voldemort hate him...If that is'nt a big risk , especially for the son of James Potter, then i don't know what is.

I agree. He hated Harry and his father, which he showed Harry by his contempt in POtions class, or humiliating him.

I think Snape hated James Potter and he hated James much before James fell for Lily and started asking her out. Then his hatred may have intensified, but I think the hate was not for Harry's father as much as it was for James Potter.

But in the end, every thing he did , changing sides at risk to his life was to keep Lily Evans son safe.

I think he changed sides because his action started off a hunt by Voldemort against Lily. He stayed on even after Lily died; it showed that Snape had grown in that time to a person who Dumbledore could ask for help for James Potter's son.

I think Snape hated James Potter and he hated James much before James fell for Lily and started asking her out. Then his hatred may have intensified, but I think the hate was not for Harry's father as much as it was for James Potter.

What i meant was that he took out the hatred he had for James on harry by bullying him when he was teacher. He saw James in harry and took revenge for all the bullying now that Snape was the one with power.:)
Which is understandable if he was regularly bullied as badly as we saw in his memory.

[/QUOTE]I think he changed sides because his action started off a hunt by Voldemort against Lily. He stayed on even after Lily died; it showed that Snape had grown in that time to a person who Dumbledore could ask for help for James Potter's son.[/QUOTE]


This was sort of his atonement for sparking off the hunt which led to Lily losing her family and her life, more than his conscience ( at that point) for nearly making Voldemort immortal.IMO, Lily losing her life was the greater contributing factor than his conscience telling him to work for "The Greater Good". But that's just my opinion.

What i meant was that he took out the hatred he had for James on harry by bullying him when he was teacher. He saw James in harry and took revenge for all the bullying now that Snape was the one with power.:)
Which is understandable if he was regularly bullied as badly as we saw in his memory.

That theory would make more sense to me if Harry were obviously an unpleasant, aggressive child who was seen to be bullying others. And even then that would not justify any bullying on the teacher's part ... Harry would need to be disciplined, which is very different from bullying.

No adult is ever justified in bullying a child. I don't care how unpleasant the kid's father was or what he did to you. :)

However, the revelations in DH about Snape, and his demeanour in The Prince's Tale, shed a somewhat different light on all of this for me.

It may be that Snape was seeking to correct what he saw as a potential James in Harry ... and his methodology is :yuhup:

I am not denying that Harry being the spit image of James was a major emotional trigger for Snape. It's just that we have two, apparently contradictory, things going on in the character ... Snape being harsh to Harry and Snape acting at the same time to protect the child.

This was sort of his atonement for sparking off the hunt which led to Lily losing her family and her life, more than his conscience ( at that point) for nearly making Voldemort immortal.IMO, Lily losing her life was the greater contributing factor than his conscience telling him to work for "The Greater Good". But that's just my opinion.

I agree this was his over-riding motive for changing sides back in 1981. However, I also think that The Prince's Tale showed that his moral compass changed during that time.

What i meant was that he took out the hatred he had for James on harry by bullying him when he was teacher. He saw James in harry and took revenge for all the bullying now that Snape was the one with power.:)
Which is understandable if he was regularly bullied as badly as we saw in his memory.


I agree with you. I always saw Snape's treatment to Harry as complete injustice. Sometimes I wonder how different it would've been, if Snape had removed the prejudice he had against the name 'Potter' and tried to get to know Harry better. I don't think he ever considered the fact that Harry had never had a proper conversation with his father. It seemed to me that Harry's resemblance to his father, gave Snape the wrong impression that he was like him in manner and behaviour as well. When James broke rules for fun. Harry broke them to protect his friends and himself, protect valuable things, etc. I don't really recall many incidents when Harry broke rules just for having fun.
Yet Snape keeps repeating his words that Harry is a determined rule breaker, enjoys his fame, etc.
So I agree with you that once Snape had power, He used it to torment Harry. It's a bit understandable, though. Like you said he was bullied as a child. And to complicate things even further, the person he had no affection for -his worst enemy's son-, was in the same time the person he vowed to protect -his beloved woman's son-.
What I don't like about Snape's behaviour. Is that he never tried to improve his own situation. On the contrary, it seemed to me that he was intentionally painting it even darker. It seemed like he was getting accustomed to the darkness and was keen on keeping it. I think there was a big chance he could've got along with Harry perfectly. But he held tightly to his belief that all the Potters are rule breakers, proud talented quidditch players, etc.
By not giving himself a chance to know Harry, he not only hurt Harry, but himself, too.

And of course this ranting is my own speculation and opinion.

Snape is very mean to Harry but this only makes Harry stronger in the process and really lets Harry see that maybe underneath it all Snape is not that bad of a person, that no one really understood Snape when he was younger. Severus Snape is a very interesting and favorable character, there is alot that we still do not know about him. He is a very secretive character and not utill HBP do we really know what he is about.

Please refresh my memory. I know there are plenty of examples of Snape being nasty and insulting to Harry, but I'd like an instance of out and out bullying. Really, I'm serious.

Please refresh my memory. I know there are plenty of examples of Snape being nasty and insulting to Harry, but I'd like an instance of out and out bullying. Really, I'm serious.

I'll mention a few situations in which I felt that Snape's treatment to Harry was -to me- pure bullying. In GoF, when Harry's name appeared in the goblet, and then he's taken to that room with the other champions. In that incident I really found Snape's criticism to Harry quite unnecessary. He didn't have an evidence that Harry had intentionally put his name in the goblet. Yet he stated his suspicions as facts. Which was really embarrassing to Harry in front of all those people.
Also later the same year, in a potions class when Snape had separated the trio and got Harry on his own. According to the book Snape was actually trying to provoke Harry and take points from his house. Was again accusing him while he had no evidence. Was threatening to slip some truth potion in his food. For a teacher-student relationship, I call this true and pure bullying.

Also later the same year, in a potions class when Snape had separated the trio and got Harry on his own. According to the book Snape was actually trying to provoke Harry and take points from his house. Was again accusing him while he had no evidence. Was threatening to slip some truth potion in his food. For a teacher-student relationship, I call this true and pure bullying.

"Bullying is repeated acts over time that involves a real or perceived imbalance of power with the more powerful child or group attacking those who are less powerful. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Fact Sheet #FS-200127)"

According to this definition, there are numerous definitions of bullying where Snape abuses his power to intimidate Harry. You can look at the provoking Harry into a reaction or even the numerous occassions where Harry picks on Gryffindors and not the slytherins ... remember "settle down, settle down....."

Please refresh my memory. I know there are plenty of examples of Snape being nasty and insulting to Harry, but I'd like an instance of out and out bullying. Really, I'm serious.

And also, i forgot which book, first, it think, he also takes points from Gryffindor and Harry because Neville messed up his potion. He just said somthing along the lines of " You thought it would make you look good , did you?"
No one would have loved it better than me if he had actually gotten to know Harry , or if Harry had a chance to talk to him after the "Prince's Tale". But the fact that he could'nt look past Harry's appearance or his closeness to Sirius makes it sad and tragic. Which leads me to think maybe he didnt want to. He did'nt want to see Lily in James Potter's son, that he hated seeing her eyes in Potter's face.:sigh:
But after all that, his bravery, and the fact that he risked everything, without letting anyone know before the tragedy of his death, makes me proud of a character like him. ROCK ON, SEVERUS SNAPE!:tu::clap::D

In my opinion, Snape's behavior extended to many children, not just Harry. Even if Snape's goal was to ultimately be helpful to the children, the means he chose were still innappropriate, in my view.

And also, i forgot which book, first, it think, he also takes points from Gryffindor and Harry because Neville messed up his potion. He just said somthing along the lines of " You thought it would make you look good , did you?"
Yes, that's another case in which Snape takes up for Neville and against Harry, which is fascinating because so many people think Snape hated Neville.

No one would have loved it better than me if he had actually gotten to know Harry , or if Harry had a chance to talk to him after the "Prince's Tale". But the fact that he could'nt look past Harry's appearance or his closeness to Sirius makes it sad and tragic. Which leads me to think maybe he didnt want to. He did'nt want to see Lily in James Potter's son, that he hated seeing her eyes in Potter's face.:sigh:

I sometimes saw it differently. Nearly every time Snape wanted to talk to Harry, all Harry wanted to do was get away from him, and he acts suspiciously. And Harry seems to be the one who held the grudge about Sirius in spite of all the evidence that it wasn't Snape's fault that Sirius died.

Often Harry is thinking about Quidditch or Ginny, or he is thinking the worst about Snape, which Snape can surely see in his mind. I have a theory that Snape was picking up some of Voldemort's negative brainwaves sometimes in dealing with Harry, which was probably painful to him. Maybe JKR will address that someday. :huh:

They each seem to reflect the worst in each other, unfortunately. :(

But after all that, his bravery, and the fact that he risked everything, without letting anyone know before the tragedy of his death, makes me proud of a character like him. ROCK ON, SEVERUS SNAPE!:tu::clap::D
Indeed! :clap:

I guess that show's just how much difference interpretation can make. I have always felt that indicated the exact opposit thing! :)

To me Severus exploded because his reasons were deep very personal ones (ie Capturing Lily's betrayer & his accomplace) and when soemone misjudged what they were & labled them petty he exploded.

To me that seems far more likely - but I'm guessing you think the same thing about your interpretation so we probably won't agree. :)
Correct. ;) We get the same text, but interpret it different.

Severus did stuff that helped kill Lily, so he is partly to blame.

I still love him though, i thought many times he was trying to look out for Harry but he also hated him. He [imo] wished he was Harry's father, because then he'd have something to connect him moreso with Lily. Then there's the fact that Harry was a constant reminder of James [not just lily], and let's not forget that James used to bully Severus in school. It's only natural to have some feelings still there, but yeah i think his want to protect Harry for Lily was proved time and again :)
I understand that people believe that Snape in a way wanted to protect Harry, but IMO could he have it done in a better way. He could have shown his concerns and treated him better than he actually did.


Sometimes a thank you is just a thank you, and I think that's the case with Harry's invisibility cloak.
Ok the way I see it, when you look back at the past years. Snape was never particulary nice to Harry. There was always gloating and mutual hate. Now he enters the Shack and sees all his worst enemies in one place. I highly doubt that he had nice thoughts at that time.

Snape is very mean to Harry but this only makes Harry stronger in the process and really lets Harry see that maybe underneath it all Snape is not that bad of a person, that no one really understood Snape when he was younger. Severus Snape is a very interesting and favorable character, there is alot that we still do not know about him. He is a very secretive character and not utill HBP do we really know what he is about.
I don't really agree here, IMO when Snape wasn't that mean to Harry and had respected him then Harry wouldn't have hated him that much and seen him in a different light. I'd prefer something like this, as I hate the way Snape was revealed as a "good" guy. All this years there was hate and then we get this memory and suddenly everything is good again. If only it was slowly built up and not just thrown in our faces and we need accept his goodness because of this one memory, even though for a long time Snape=mean and hates Harry.

Ok the way I see it, when you look back at the past years. Snape was never particulary nice to Harry. There was always gloating and mutual hate. Now he enters the Shack and sees all his worst enemies in one place. I highly doubt that he had nice thoughts at that time.

But I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with Snape saying "Thanks, Potter" for the use of the Invisibility Cloak? :huh:

Nothing comes to mind. :relax:

But I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with Snape saying "Thanks, Potter" for the use of the Invisibility Cloak? :huh:

Nothing comes to mind. :relax:

I really can't believe that Severus is not employing the awesome power of the snark there, SIP. Seriously. :relax: I find a grim sort of humour in his remark to Harry there, to be honest.

I understand that people believe that Snape in a way wanted to protect Harry, but IMO could he have it done in a better way. He could have shown his concerns and treated him better than he actually did.

Snape is a Slytherin. For Slytherins, the end justifies the means. :relax:


Ok the way I see it, when you look back at the past years. Snape was never particulary nice to Harry. There was always gloating and mutual hate. Now he enters the Shack and sees all his worst enemies in one place. I highly doubt that he had nice thoughts at that time.

I absolutely agree about gloating and mutual hate. But... 'all his worst enemies'? :huh:

Personally, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around Snape who sees a bunch of 3rd years as 'his worst enemies'.

I hate the way Snape was revealed as a "good" guy. All this years there was hate and then we get this memory and suddenly everything is good again. If only it was slowly built up and not just thrown in our faces and we need accept his goodness because of this one memory, even though for a long time Snape=mean and hates Harry.

Tender feelings for one Mr Potter hardly qualify as a valid argument in establishing one's "goodness", Tenshi. :relax:

But I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with Snape saying "Thanks, Potter" for the use of the Invisibility Cloak? :huh:

Nothing comes to mind. :relax:

Sometimes a "thank you" really is what it seems - a "thank you." :lol:

As much as I dislike Snape, there's little one can say about his bitterness and unpleasantness - he lived a pretty miserable life. To expect sunshine and daisies from a man whose mind is locked so firmly in a dark and dreary frame of consciousness seems like grasping for the stars - it'll never happen.

Now he enters the Shack and sees all his worst enemies in one place. I highly doubt that he had nice thoughts at that time.

I really can't believe that Severus is not employing the awesome power of the snark there, SIP. Seriously. :relax: I find a grim sort of humour in his remark to Harry there, to be honest.
Well those two statements seem to be at odds. ;)

The snark is lost on me, sorry.

My take on it is that Snape (rightly) assumed that since he was there to rescue the kids they might want to be rescued, especially after hearing that Lupin really was a werewolf and a friend of Sirius Black. So he was saying thanks for the use of the cloak because he didn't expect Harry to balk at being rescued. That's why later he felt the kids must have been confunded in such a precarious situation.

It just occurred to me that Snape never told Harry that Lupin was a friend of Sirius Black - another secret he kept for Lupin. With rare insight, Harry figured it out for himself.

What I find most wonderful about the way Snape's character develops through the series is not his sarcasm (gasp!) or his intelligence, but the unfailing goodness and morality of his very human character. The fact that it's so marvelously, completely disguised by JKR under the veneer of the "cruel Potions Master" makes it all the more stunning and awe-inspiring.

Harry is the innocent, who is never really tempted to go over to the Dark Side, so to speak. Snape crossed over and returned. Before the start of the series his battle is fought and won, and he is on the path of goodness the whole time that we see him.He knows both sides and, having fallen once, he will not fall again. Yes, he has the full range of human emotions, and no, he's not perfect. But no one is more consistently committed to defeating Voldemort and to keeping his word than Severus Snape.

Even enjoying his cynical humor and his delicious sarcasm as I do, I most deeply appreciate his stern dedication to atoning for his past, his honor and his endless work to defeat Voldemort. Snape is a truly remarkable character.

I absolutely agree about gloating and mutual hate. But... 'all his worst enemies'? :huh:

Personally, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around Snape who sees a bunch of 3rd years as 'his worst enemies'.


Snape's worst enemy at that point was probably Voldemort, but Sirius, Lupin and James (who Snape seems to see in Harry) did cause him a fair bit of trauma in his schoolboy years. I would not think it a stretch to consider them as "worst enemies" as well. Even when they were fighting on the same side of a war, they couldn't harbour their resentment for each other.

On a side note, if they had been less hostile towards him, he may have been able to stay closer to Lily and not get in so deep with his Slytherin friends. Frankly, the trio might be the cause of Snape "going bad." Unlike Malfoy, Snape was a kind, innocent and inclusive wizard before his education. This theory has probably been proposed before, but I think that the Marauders were partly at fault for Snape's becoming a Death Eater.

Great post, Sly Lady! :clap: Especially this part:

Harry is the innocent, who is never really tempted to go over to the Dark Side, so to speak. Snape crossed over and returned. Before the start of the series his battle is fought and won, and he is on the path of goodness the whole time that we see him.He knows both sides and, having fallen once, he will not fall again. Yes, he has the full range of human emotions, and no, he's not perfect. But no one is more consistently committed to defeating Voldemort and to keeping his word than Severus Snape.

That's what is so great. :) All those times Harry and others believed the absolute worst about Snape, it was never true, not once. Snape wasn't a real Death Eater from the time Harry was an infant. So that's the real trickery of the books.

Very good character to fall in love with! Have to love Snape :)

Well those two statements seem to be at odds. ;)

I enjoy Snape's snark and often find it funny. No conflict there for me.

The snark is never lost on a Snape fan, IMO. :cool:

My take on it is that Snape (rightly) assumed that since he was there to rescue the kids they might want to be rescued, especially after hearing that Lupin really was a werewolf and a friend of Sirius Black. So he was saying thanks for the use of the cloak because he didn't expect Harry to balk at being rescued. That's why later he felt the kids must have been confunded in such a precarious situation.

OK, he can have all that at the back of his mind and still be sarcastic about it. Just my opinion, obviously. But, personally, I prefer my Severus all snarky and bitter, even in his guardian/protector role.

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He is my favorite character in the series.

Mine too. (Alongside Harry. :love: ) He is JKR's best creation, hands down, IMO.

Welcome, by the way. :wave:

You know, it's like JKR was writing two Snapes ... the bitter teacher whom we mostly see through Harry's eyes, and then the inner Severus, whom we see most clearly in The Prince's Tale. Still bitter, still melancholy, but rather different from the persona that Harry sees.

Obviously the memories given to him by Snape made a lasting impression on Harry. :cool:

His grumpyness and snarkyness is unique and also likeable there I agree, but still there are other aspects of this character (which over weights the positive sides for me) which in the end put him on my Dislike List. But hey there's also Dumby.

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Look Snape = Always mean and grumpy. I don't remember where he was being nice at all in the first books. So every word he says I am taking with a pinch of salt.
I absolutely agree about gloating and mutual hate. But... 'all his worst enemies'?

Personally, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around Snape who sees a bunch of 3rd years as 'his worst enemies'.
It's Snape. Snape pretty much is grumpy towards almost everyone (except for his few selected favourites). Ok there are the Marauders, he hates. Potter and his fellows he doesn't particulary like either. Basically nobody of his best buddies, who he loved to have met that day.


Tender feelings for one Mr Potter hardly qualify as a valid argument in establishing one's "goodness", Tenshi.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Excellent post Sly_Lady! :tu:

Snape's expressions of bitterness, anger or hatred, are expressions seen mostly through Harry's eyes IMO. It did not mean he had the same expression all the time or that he was always bitter. He was bitter about certain incidents and people with whom he had a bad history. But otherwise, I don't think Snape can be called bitter, because that Snape we saw through Harry's eyes and clearly there was more to Snape than what Harry perceived in the first six Books IMO.

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Snape's expressions of bitterness, anger or hatred, are expressions seen mostly through Harry's eyes IMO. It did not mean he had the same expression all the time or that he was always bitter. He was bitter about certain incidents and people with whom he had a bad history. But otherwise, I don't think Snape can be called bitter, because that Snape we saw through Harry's eyes and clearly there was more to Snape than what Harry perceived in the first six Books IMO.

Well, okay ... personally, I do see quite a lot of bitterness in him.

He is bitter about James Potter. He is bitter at having lost Lily to James. Harry's presence reminds him daily of that bitterness. He is bitter about Sirius a) when he believes him to be responsible for Lily's death and b) just for being Sirius, I think :lol: (Of course, the same is true in reverse of Sirius, who seems to resent Snape just for being Snape!)

He bitterly regrets having hurled that awful word at Lily and having lost her friendship. He bitterly regrets having been partly responsible for her death. I would also like to believe that he was deeply remorseful for having been partly responsible for James' death as well, and for Harry ending up an orphan. The moral growth that JKR showed in Severus in The Prince's Tale helps me believe that could be true.

All these things add to the bitterness and sadness that is Snape's life, not to mention his difficult years as a double agent. He has an awful lot to be bitter about and I am not sure he outgrew some of it, even with what we were shown in The Prince's Tale. But that is all part of why I find him so very memorable, and why I love him as a character.

Does his bitterness make him dislikable? -- not for me. I don't always like what he says, especially not to Harry, but I love his work as a double agent and I always like him as a character. :tu:

I just knew there was more to him, and his story.

:agree: He was definitely JKR's best kept secret. :lol:

You know, it's like JKR was writing two Snapes ... the bitter teacher whom we mostly see through Harry's eyes, and then the inner Severus, whom we see most clearly in The Prince's Tale. Still bitter, still melancholy, but rather different from the persona that Harry sees.

I don't see that JKR wrote 2 Snapes as much as Harry is mistaken, due to his child's inexperienced view of the world. Harry fails to see the real Severus Snape.

To me, one of the most telling comments that Snape makes in the whole series, the one that shows us who he is in his own words, is where he snaps at Harry about fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Snape was that fool when he was young, and he hides his real self, the one he believes is so easy to mock, flawlessly. He cleverly uses every weapon in his very impressive arsenal to create his facade, specializing in negative emotions. Anger, bitterness, sarcasm, malice, but when all else fails, his expressionless mask.

We can catch glimpses of deep emotions at rare times throughout the book. For me, reading The Prince's Tale was an awe-inspiring confirmation of the real Snape, the hidden, emotional, passionate Snape. The Snape who cares deeply. All the rest is surface, and while it's fascinating to me to see the vast arsenal of defenses he uses in human interactions, it's what's underneath the mask that's the most remarkable and admirable.

I don't see that JKR wrote 2 Snapes as much as Harry is mistaken, due to his child's inexperienced view of the world. Harry fails to see the real Severus Snape.

But the 'Harry filter' is not always actually wrong. :cool: IMO.

I certainly agree that the narrowness of Harry's perspective does not allow for the Big Picture (this is true of other things in the series besides Snape's characterisation). Nowhere is this more true of the Big Reveal about Snape: Harry thought all along that Snape hated him and was trying to work to harm him, whereas Snape is revealed to have been working for Harry's good.

Where it gets more tangled and complex for me is Snape's actual feelings for Harry. I don't think he is feigning his dislike, even though he was working for the greater good and, ultimately, the defeat of Harry's own nemesis.

Of course disliking someone does not preclude you working on their side ...

To me, one of the most telling comments that Snape makes in the whole series, the one that shows us who he is in his own words, is where he snaps at Harry about fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Snape was that fool when he was young, and he hides his real self, the one he believes is so easy to mock, flawlessly. He cleverly uses every weapon in his very impressive arsenal to create his facade, specializing in negative emotions. Anger, bitterness, sarcasm, malice, but when all else fails, his expressionless mask.

I mostly agree with this. :tu:

Where I would differ with you slightly is that I don't think Snape's negative emotions are always feigned. I think many of them are real. Sure, he uses them as a shield. But his long-fermented bitterness at James is for real: he's not faking that. IMO.

We can catch glimpses of deep emotions at rare times throughout the book. For me, reading The Prince's Tale was an awe-inspiring confirmation of the real Snape, the hidden, emotional, passionate Snape. The Snape who cares deeply. All the rest is surface, and while it's fascinating to me to see the vast arsenal of defenses he uses in human interactions, it's what's underneath the mask that's the most remarkable and admirable.

For me personally, there is kind of a gap between what I wanted Rowling to write and what she actually wrote. I have to bridge that gap in my own mind ... because if Severus had walked into my imagination, unbidden, I would have taken a rather different attitude to him than the one she seems to. To be honest.

But I can certainly live with what she ultimately delivered. :tu:

I believe that the scene in TPT where Snape is complaining about Harry to Dumbledore proves that he at least disliked the kid in '91, when he first arrived at Hogwarts. But I read Sly_Lady's post not to mean that he doesn't feel negative emotions, but that the emotions are there, and are used in the outside persona to lend it credibility and keep people at bay.

IMO, he does this semi-unconsciously. I think he knows that he makes himself a real pest, but I'm not sure how aware he is that it's a defence mechanism.

But I read Sly_Lady's post not to mean that he doesn't feel negative emotions, but that the emotions are there, and are used in the outside persona to lend it credibility and keep people at bay.

Oh, yes, he certainly uses them as an offensive weapon. :cool:

IMO, he does this semi-unconsciously. I think he knows that he makes himself a real pest, but I'm not sure how aware he is that it's a defence mechanism.

Yes, that's how it strikes me too ...

Harry's presence reminds him daily of that bitterness.

This is JKR's opinion, I don't see anything in canon to suggest this (for me). :D

I think Harry reminds Snape of Lily and his loss; but if Snape is bitter about anything, I think it is about his mistakes more than anything else IMO.

What I mean to say is that Snape was not a bitter man, a man who was filled with bitterness; I do think Snape was bitter about his mistakes, but I don't think it turned him into a bitter man as such.

This is JKR's opinion, I don't see anything in canon to suggest this (for me). :D

I do. :)

Of course that's purely my own opinion ... which is separate from JKR's. (I don't discount her interviews, which can help shed light on stuff: I'm just not that reliant on them.)

To me, one of the most telling comments that Snape makes in the whole series, the one that shows us who he is in his own words, is where he snaps at Harry about fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Snape was that fool when he was young, and he hides his real self, the one he believes is so easy to mock, flawlessly. He cleverly uses every weapon in his very impressive arsenal to create his facade, specializing in negative emotions. Anger, bitterness, sarcasm, malice, but when all else fails, his expressionless mask.


I thought this remark to Harry, was a big clue that there was much more to Severus than what we see from Harry's point of view. I also thought it was interesting that Severus is giving Harry advice, and not just general advice, but he seems to be sharing with him something he has found himself personally in dealing with Voldemort.

Nice post Btw, Sly Lady! :tu:

We can catch glimpses of deep emotions at rare times throughout the book. For me, reading The Prince's Tale was an awe-inspiring confirmation of the real Snape, the hidden, emotional, passionate Snape. The Snape who cares deeply. All the rest is surface, and while it's fascinating to me to see the vast arsenal of defenses he uses in human interactions, it's what's underneath the mask that's the most remarkable and admirable.

Awesome post, once again. :agree: I see those as Snape's real emotions, at least they were "real for me" when reading The Prince's Tale. The person I saw in those scenes were a sharp contrast to Harry's view of him as "cold" or malicious.

But the 'Harry filter' is not always actually wrong. IMO.
True, even Harry can be right twice a day, but on the other hand he is shown to be an unreliable judge of character and circumstances over and over. I think the best example of Harry judging someone by appearances is when he snaps at Andromeda Tonks just because she reminds him so much of Bellatrix Lestrange in appearance. He discounts her feelings as a worried mother and then has to stop himself and recognize his own prejudice. If there had been more interaction with her it might have been even more effective to show the differences between her and her sister, but the fact that Andromeda has proud and haughty mannerisms doesn't mean that she is an evil villain, anymore than it does with Snape.

The point is that Harry makes the same mistake with Snape and Voldemort. They are both Half-Bloods, but Harry assumes that "Prince" is a self-made title that Snape gave himself, just as Voldemort became a "Lord" to boost his own ego. In truth, Snape is honoring his mother over his father! Harry has the facts, but he doesn't put it all together correctly.

Harry jumps to wrong conclusions about Tonks loving Sirius rather than Lupin, too. He is just a bad judge of adult behavior, in my opinion. And JKR carefully gives us those scenes to clue us in that Harry has an oversimplified view of the world and human emotions. He's not thinking outside the box very much in terms of human relationships or cause and effect, which Voldemort uses to trap him on several occasions, in my opinion.

I think Harry reminds Snape of Lily and his loss; but if Snape is bitter about anything, I think it is about his mistakes more than anything else IMO.

What I mean to say is that Snape was not a bitter man, a man who was filled with bitterness; I do think Snape was bitter about his mistakes, but I don't think it turned him into a bitter man as such.

I also don't buy the idea that Snape's true feelings are hatred and bitterness, when he agreed so quickly to protect Lily's boy in Prince's Tale, although I think it was much harder to protect Harry than he envisioned.

I really think part of Snape's bitterness was directed at James and not Harry, and that becomes mixed-up sometimes just as it does for Sirius who has a positive reaction to Harry's similarity, but that's just my perception.

Awesome post, once again. :agree: I see those as Snape's real emotions, at least they were "real for me" when reading The Prince's Tale. The person I saw in those scenes were a sharp contrast to Harry's view of him as "cold" or malicious.

I think too much credance can be given to TPT. It is one chapter out of seven books. Yes, it shows Snape's motivations, what it does not show is his regrets over all. When he is speaking to DD after Harry first gets to school, and DD reminds him he is seeing just what he wants to see. I think the author here is reminding the reader about this danger.

True, even Harry can be right twice a day,

The point is that Harry makes the same mistake with Snape and Voldemort. They are both Half-Bloods, but Harry assumes that "Prince" is a self-made title that Snape gave himself, just as Voldemort became a "Lord" to boost his own ego. In truth, Snape is honoring his mother over his father! Harry has the facts, but he doesn't put it all together correctly.

Harry is a child who has to learn how to read people's charactors. Snape is a fully grown man who is constantly at the mercy of his emotions. He survives by either bottling up his emotions or blowing up like he did in POA. Neither actions is particularly adult. I just feel that Snape is a classic case of arrested development. He only begins to truly mature in my view when DD asks him to help him die.


I also don't buy the idea that Snape's true feelings are hatred and bitterness, when he agreed so quickly to protect Lily's boy in Prince's Tale, although I think it was much harder to protect Harry than he envisioned.

I really think part of Snape's bitterness was directed at James and not Harry, and that becomes mixed-up sometimes just as it does for Sirius who has a positive reaction to Harry's similarity, but that's just my perceptio

I think he agreed too quickly to help protect Harry. He did not think it through. When DD asked him he was to put it mildly, a mess. I think it was difficult for him and the only reason he got through the first few years was that stubborn juvenile part of him that would not let go of his past.

True, even Harry can be right twice a day, but on the other hand he is shown to be an unreliable judge of character and circumstances over and over. I think the best example of Harry judging someone by appearances is when he snaps at Andromeda Tonks just because she reminds him so much of Bellatrix Lestrange in appearance. He discounts her feelings as a worried mother and then has to stop himself and recognize his own prejudice. If there had been more interaction with her it might have been even more effective to show the differences between her and her sister, but the fact that Andromeda has proud and haughty mannerisms doesn't mean that she is an evil villain, anymore than it does with Snape.

Well, yes, Harry often has a simplistic view of things but for me the Harry filter is not totally wrong when he senses that Snape resents him on some level. That's really all I meant.

I really think part of Snape's bitterness was directed at James and not Harry, and that becomes mixed-up sometimes just as it does for Sirius who has a positive reaction to Harry's similarity, but that's just my perception.

I agree with this, which leads me back to my point about the Harry filter not always being totally wrong ... Harry sensed correctly that Snape had antagonistic feelings towards him, even though he could not have guessed that it was the image of James in him that Snape found difficult.

I think too much credance can be given to TPT. It is one chapter out of seven books. Yes, it shows Snape's motivations, what it does not show is his regrets over all.

But TPT is the Big Reveal, and it does show us another side to Snape ... that's why people make a big thing of it. I know I did. :) And do. :cool:

I may have issues with how Rowling presents Snape for much of the series, but TPT is, for me, the interpretative lens. :)

When he is speaking to DD after Harry first gets to school, and DD reminds him he is seeing just what he wants to see. I think the author here is reminding the reader about this danger.

I'm not sure about that, Eliza, because frankly I think the reader has the right to interpret the author's story how they wish ... Rowling does not control my reaction to her characters. :cool: That's just not the way I read fiction. I really don't want the author breathing down my neck telling me how I should or should not interpret their story.

I agree that it would have been good to see Severus actually express some verbal regret to Harry about the way he had treated him on occasion ... even if one interprets his memories (which are very private) in a confessional way -- which I definitely do. It's as if he is saying to Harry, 'look, this is me, the uncensored Snape -- it's what happened, between me and your mother, between me and your father ... I make no excuses for it, but here it is ... the truth.'

Harry, for his part, must have felt some kind of need to apologise to Snape as well -- he had thought Snape as undiluted evil, and Snape had died in the knowledge that Harry still thought of him as a traitor and a murderer. Hence Harry's vindication of Snape before the watching crowds in the Great Hall, and of course naming his son after him.

The moment of Snape's death is one of intense vulnerability -- virtually dying in the arms of the boy who still thinks of him as an unrepentant Death Eater, and looking into that boy's eyes, a final image of the woman he had loved and lost.

:upset:

Well, yes, Harry often has a simplistic view of things but for me the Harry filter is not totally wrong when he senses that Snape resents him on some level. That's really all I meant.



I agree with this, which leads me back to my point about the Harry filter not always being totally wrong ... Harry sensed correctly that Snape had antagonistic feelings towards him, even though he could not have guessed that it was the image of James in him that Snape found difficult.



But TPT is the Big Reveal, and it does show us another side to Snape ... that's why people make a big thing of it. I know I did. :) And do. :cool:

I may have issues with how Rowling presents Snape for much of the series, but TPT is, for me, the interpretative lens. :)



I'm not sure about that, Eliza, because frankly I think the reader has the right to interpret the author's story how they wish ... Rowling does not control my reaction to her characters. :cool: That's just not the way I read fiction. I really don't want the author breathing down my neck telling me how I should or should not interpret their story.

I agree that it would have been good to see Severus actually express some verbal regret to Harry about the way he had treated him on occasion ... even if one interprets his memories (which are very private) in a confessional way -- which I definitely do. It's as if he is saying to Harry, 'look, this is me, the uncensored Snape -- it's what happened, between me and your mother, between me and your father ... I make no excuses for it, but here it is ... the truth.'

Harry, for his part, must have felt some kind of need to apologise to Snape as well -- he had thought Snape as undiluted evil, and Snape had died in the knowledge that Harry still thought of him as a traitor and a murderer. Hence Harry's vindication of Snape before the watching crowds in the Great Hall, and of course naming his son after him.

The moment of Snape's death is one of intense vulnerability -- virtually dying in the arms of the boy who still thinks of him as an unrepentant Death Eater, and looking into that boy's eyes, a final image of the woman he had loved and lost.

:upset:

Well in many ways that is how I read it as well. What I am trying to say, (not very well), is that TPT is not the whole of Snape's story. Through seven books we have followed Harry and Snape and I do not think that TPT is Snape's entire story, condensed as it was.
What Snape did, did not do through the books counts. That means the scenes where he is frankly mean to Harry and other children, the emotions, anger and hurt showed are every bit as real for Harry and Company as Snape's anger and hurt in TPT.
I think Snape was very brave at times, I think he was a nasty git at times. One does not preclude the other. And I think that is an underlying meaning in the choice of jo's words. Yes, Snape had his reasons, but don't forget so did the other charactors, and their reasons are just as important.
I have to confess I did not feel awash with sympathy for Snape when I read TPT. It was as you said a reveal, but I felt it was the reveal of a lot of things. Lily's story was there as well, DD played a big part and so did the Marauders. When I read it I thought, 'So that was his reaon. Hmph.' I felt that what we had just had revealed to us was the waste of a life. Especially the part about the closing of the door. All I could think was that Snape's plan so very nearly failed. Harry could have died through it, would have died it it hadn't been for Ron. And that for me summed up Snape's life. Nearly there and then he blows it. Of course I know it was more than that, but you know for me that is it, condensed.

I think too much credance can be given to TPT. It is one chapter out of seven books. Yes, it shows Snape's motivations, what it does not show is his regrets over all. When he is speaking to DD after Harry first gets to school, and DD reminds him he is seeing just what he wants to see. I think the author here is reminding the reader about this danger.

I agree. I felt that Snape included the memories where he spoke of Harry to make it clear that he continued to loathe him and why. In that way, he didn't have to further make any explanations about his interaction with Harry, but could simply supply further information so that Harry could trust he was working for Dumbledore and not Voldemort.

Well in many ways that is how I read it as well. What I am trying to say, (not very well), is that TPT is not the whole of Snape's story. Through seven books we have followed Harry and Snape and I do not think that TPT is Snape's entire story, condensed as it was.

I have to take it as his entire story ... because, being really blunt here, I don't really approve of the way JKR handles Snape. :yuhup: Let's put it this way, if that character had walked into my imagination, I'd have chosen a different way of writing him. It is personally disappointing to me that the author insists that Snape 'loathed Harry to the end' ... it seems to contradict what she was actually trying to do in the text, and I don't understand that at all. :)

What Snape did, did not do through the books counts. That means the scenes where he is frankly mean to Harry and other children, the emotions, anger and hurt showed are every bit as real for Harry and Company as Snape's anger and hurt in TPT.

And that is an issue that Rowling never addresses. Ever. IMO.

I think Snape was very brave at times, I think he was a nasty git at times.

I do agree with that. That's why he and Sirius are so interesting ... they both have a nasty side to them. :yuhup:

I have to confess I did not feel awash with sympathy for Snape when I read TPT. It was as you said a reveal, but I felt it was the reveal of a lot of things. Lily's story was there as well, DD played a big part and so did the Marauders. When I read it I thought, 'So that was his reaon. Hmph.' I felt that what we had just had revealed to us was the waste of a life. Especially the part about the closing of the door.

I felt a great deal of sympathy for him -- we saw how awful his childhood was, it explained a lot how a kid like him could end up with a dubious gang who would take him under their wing. I can feel a lot of sympathy for Severus without condoning the bad choices he made in his youth.

I also have sympathy for him because Rowling gives the poor guy such an remittingly bleak life. :yuhup: (The other character she does that to is, of course Sirius, whose life is tragically blighted and who, to my mind, meets with a quite extraordinary lack of sympathy from premier Order members like Molly.) At least Sirius had the consolation of knowing he meant something to Harry. Severus doesn't even have that, i.e. he doesn't have anyone in his life who means that much to him ... only his memories of Lily.

All I could think was that Snape's plan so very nearly failed. Harry could have died through it, would have died it it hadn't been for Ron.

Rowling, frankly, over-uses the 'deus ex machina' in DH ... although she is not the first fantasy author to have done so. ;) It is remarkably convenient for Harry to be in the right place at the right time when Voldemort kills Severus. :rolleyes: The strength and the drama of the storytelling carries it through, fortunately.

I agree. I felt that Snape included the memories where he spoke of Harry to make it clear that he continued to loathe him and why. In that way, he didn't have to further make any explanations about his interaction with Harry, but could simply supply further information so that Harry could trust he was working for Dumbledore and not Voldemort.

I totally disagree with this particular interpretation, which of course you are entitled to, since it's your own subjective interpretation. ;)

My own subjective interpretation is that Snape could be saying to Harry, 'look, this is what I thought of you back in 1991 ... it's not necessarily what I think of you now.'

As I say ... if I'd been writing Snape, that would have been my intent.

I always felt that Snape continued to loathe Harry right to the end. It was a measure of the man that he gave his life over to protecting a boy he hated because he was the son of the woman that he loved and had helped to destroy.

Harry filter or no, I think that Snape was a bully and abuser of authority. Harry was not the only child he made miserable for no reason. He was also capable of tremendous love and selfless courage. I thought that his childhood blighted and maimed Snape. He managed to connect once with someone, Lily. Once she was gone, his life would have been a waste but for the new meaning and mission that Dumbledore have to him, of protecting Lily’s son and avenging her death.

Snape is truly a tragic figure IMO, a complex mixture of mostly bad but several outstandingly good qualities. And he is funny. I have said before that I think that Snake and Dumbledore are JKR’s crowning literary achievements.

All I could think was that Snape's plan so very nearly failed. Harry could have died through it, would have died it it hadn't been for Ron.

So are we to believe that Snape just planted the sword and left without waiting to see if Harry actually obtained it? Snape would be more thorough than that, I think. Ron says that he thought he saw something move behind a couple of trees. When Harry goes there he says that there is a gap between the trees at eye level. There is no snow at the base of the tree so that he couldn't have seen footprints to be sure someone was there. In hindsight that says to me that Snape was there, but left once Ron arrived on the scene or once Ron saved Harry. And I'm of the opinion that Snape would have gotten Harry out if he saw that Harry was underwater too long.

And Snape's plan would have been fine if Harry wasn't wearing a horcrux around his neck. Ron after all was able to retrieve not only Harry, but the sword as well without getting himself killed.

And we're done. New version. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=122802)