Snape vs. Marauders: it's all fun and games until someone cries

Welcome, welcome to this thread!

Snape vs. Marauders is usually a banned topic in Legilimency Studies because it leads to...well, nothing good. But for a whole week this thread is the exception to the rule! Be aware, however, that this is not a discussion thread.


Rules

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This means that there will be no debate in this thread. I cannot be clearer about this. If you try to engage another poster in a discussion, you forfeit your right to participate in this thread and your post will be deleted.
The rules on character bashing and worship still apply. For reference: REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=108021)
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This is Legilimency Studies. Please back up your statement with canon references, if possible.
Get it all out! :yuhup:



In case you're overwhelmed with all the new possibilities, I prepared a few study questions (which you may answer or ignore).

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
Was the dislike mutual?
Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Who of them grew out of it?


Ready? Go! :D

Thank you for allowing this topic to be taken up. Not to sound greedy but hopefully one day we can discuss this as well...for the time being...:clap:

1. Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

Now this question has me thinking, why did the Marauders pick up Snape in the first place? Which happens to be quite similar to the next question asked What went wrong at their first meeting on the train? and the first answer that comes in mind is yet another question Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?.

I personally feel that they are all linked. Snape was friends with Lily before Hogwarts and it is common knowledge that James liked Lily.
[staff edit]
Now Snape doesn't come across as a person to be bullied, so instead of just taking the bullying, he fought back and thus began the rivalry, which only intensified with time and how other things spanned out.

2. Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
Ideally quarreling is never justified, and vengeance is never promoted. But then if you are at the receiving end, then you would always look for means and ways for revenge. Now Snape was doing the same. As the rivalry intensified so did the hatred and desire for retribution increased. So I think Snape's desire for getting the Marauders expelled is justified and in his place I would do the same. :yuhup:

3. Was the dislike mutual?
Yep, there is an old Hindi saying "Tali do hathon se bajti hai" i,e. you need two hands to clap. Which clearly indicates that both the sides disliked/loathed each other equally if not more. However I think it was more intense for Snape, because he had been humiliated publically and the people always tend to support the marauders. Not that Snape really cared about popularity but this IMO did lead to him hating them more than the marauders. ;)

4. Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

[staff edit] From the marauders point of view, it was a harmless prank gone wrong, because Sirius thought it would be fun to see how Snivelly reacts when faced with a werewolf, but James realized the dangers and stopped Snape. So no harm done, the prank went wrong.

However from Snape's point of view, it was an attempt to get him killed and rightly so as the chances of it happening were quite high, even in the presence of a Dog and a Stag to save him if required.

From an objective point of view, nothing good comes out of rivalry. So all is bad. :rotfl:

I personally think "a stitch in time saved nine". ;)

5. Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

Umm...no. The reason being if it hadn't been for this prank then some other would have lead to intensification of the dislike. :yuhup:

6. Who of them grew out of it?

From what little we know of the Marauders after school, I think James grew out of it and that can be contributed to the fact that he had Lily, which only affirms my belief that Lily was the "bone of contention" that triggered the rivalry.

Remus was never really so much in odds with Snape to say that he grew out of it.

Sirius he never got a chance to grow up, let alone grow out of hatred for Snape.

Snape, he still showed some signs of loath for Sirius in Ootp, so no I don't think he also grew out of it. ;)

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

I don't know, if circumstances were different maybe. It looks like House division sets students up for this sort of continuing opposition, which is really a shame. If there were no Houses, who knows, maybe they could have given each other a chance, at least. But there's always something which divides children in school, if it weren't the Houses, it would have been something else.

I don't buy that it was a matter of different morality. I haven't yet seen an 11-year-old with a sense of moral and immoral developed enough to select their friends on that basis. It's usually "familiar" vs. "unfamiliar".

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

Apparently, their preference for different Houses. They had obviously been taught (even Sirius, through his uncle and Andromeda, I imagine) very different ideas of which qualities are admirable and desirable.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

First of all, that was a statement of opinion, not fact, by a not very objective source, to put it mildly. If he was following them around all the time (which I have no problem believing), I'm inclined to think that had more to do with Lily than trying to get them expelled. Snape was obviously inquisitive and alert as a student, plus he was decidedly independent (having virtually had no active parenting), so I'm not surprised that he'd take it into his hands to try and find out what it was that they were so surreptitiously doing. I don't understand why that has to be justified or not - true, he was intruding in their privacy, but he did in fact have valid suspicions.

Was the dislike mutual?

Obviously.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

I doubt it, and besides, it wasn't her duty to do that. It was the teachers' in my opinion.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

I don't think it was harmless by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it was malicious, either. I believe it was just irresponsible and poorly thought out - if Sirius had stopped to think about the consequences, I guess he might have reconsidered. I doubt any of the Marauder would have cheered if Snape had actually died or been turned into a werewolf (well, except maybe Peter, if he could see his future with Snape :p)

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

Not while Severus loved Lily. Well, maybe after many years, if everyone had lived, they could have reached the sort of grudging respect Draco and Harry show in the DH epilogue.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

I don't believe so. I think they were fully guided by his pain for Lily's loss and his desire to avenge her death. I know he was responsible for her death himself, too, but like Harry in HBP, I guess he found consolation in being able to blame someone else for a change, a sort of relief from the constant self-blame he was living with.

Who of them grew out of it?

Remus, most obviously, and I suppose Peter. He never seems to exhibit any sort of feeling actually, so I'm not so sure he ever felt the enmity at all...

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

No, it seems to me that James & Sirius started bullying him for no reason on the train and after that they were probably jealous that Lily was friends with Snape, so they carried on bulling him. Snape just didn't let them get away with it unharmed and the rivalry began. Maybe they wouldn't have bothered Snape if he hadn't been friends with Lily at first, but I'm sure they would have started on him at some point during their 7 years at Hogwarts since he has been described as being obsessed with the dark arts.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

I think the only thing that went wrong was that Snape said he wanted Lily to be in Slytherin with him. James was obviously prejudiced against Slytherins already and then Snape retaliated. It was hate at first sight type of thing.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

No, I think it's natural in a rivalry to want to get the other person(s) into trouble, but trying to get them expelled is completely different - it would have gone on records and would give them a disadvantage when they applied for a job, which seems extreme just because Snape didn't like them and they were trouble makers when they were younger.

Was the dislike mutual?

For James, Sirius and Snape, definitely. I don't think Lupin really hated him, maybe just disliked him because Snape was immersed in the Dark Arts. Pettigrew just joined in because he wanted to fit in with James & Sirius.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

By the time Lily was going out with James, her and Snape weren't friends so I can't imagine her trying to make them be friends then. And before that she didn't like James and Sirius etc so I don't think she was too bothered about it then - just thought it was unfair that they attacked Snape when he didn't do anything to them.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

I think it was an attempt to have Snape get what he deserves. Sirius knew that Snape would have been attacked if he got all the way to the Shack. James found out about what Sirius had done and stopped Snape before he reached Lupin. I don't think the other Marauders had planned it to be a joke.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

No, they disliked each other and were cursing each other before that happened, so I don't think that would have stopped at any time.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

I think he hated Lupin in PoA because he thought that Lupin was in on the attempt to kill him. Otherwise, I don't see why Snape would hate Lupin so much, because it's never shown that Lupin did anything to harm him, apart from not preventing James and Sirius attacking him.

Who of them grew out of it?

Lupin did, in HBP he says he trusts Snape because he trusts Dumbledore, and because Snape made the potion for him in PoA.

James probably did grow out of it because, in the end, he got the girl. If they had met after school, then I think it would have been more of "Order of the Phoenix Vs Death Eaters" type thing instead of individual rivalry.

Sirius didn't grow out of it, shown by how much he hates Snape in OotP. But I don't think he had a chance to mature - as soon as he got out of school he joined the Order fighting the DEs and then was sent to Azkaban. He didn't get a peaceful life where he could settle down.

I'm not sure about Pettigrew. He probably didn't hate Snape much anyway, just joined in because James and Snape were bullying him.

Snape definitely didn't grow out of it. He hates Harry because he looks like James and tries his hardest to get him thrown out of Hogwarts (I know, he's secretly protecting Harry, but he could at least treat him like any ordinary pupil) He's also convinced that Lupin was helping Sirius get into the castle in PoA and would have given Sirius to the Dementors without hesitation. Those aren't the actions of a man who has grown out of a childhood grudge IMO.

Thanks for starting this!:tu:
Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
I'm not really sure. Some amount of ...discord would have been there anyway due to their views on the eternal my-house-is-better-than-your-house.The pranks and to some extent rivalry for Lily.
What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
Here's what it seemed like to me: Snape's reaction to Gryffindors and regard for Slytherin reminded Sirius of his own family, leading to him taking James' side (with whom he already seemed to click) against Snape, who got understandably mad because of being made fun of (especially in front of Lily).All this, JMO
Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
I dont think so. Each one would think she was taking the others side. James may have listened but... i dont think so

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
It would have been much easier to get over their differences.
Who of them grew out of it?
I think , only Sirius and Snape couldnt . Each one reminded the other of James in their school days and his reactions to them.

Moriath; Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
This is difficult to answer accurately. I think if Snape had laughed in the railway carriage it would have eased the situation. Instead he got his back up and it deteriorated from there. Of course it would have helped if all the boys had not had their heads stuffed with propaganda about the different houses to begin with.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
Like I said James was disparaging about Slytherin, Sirius took it in a good humored way and Snape did not.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled? No I don't. If he thought that there was something dangerous going on he should have spoken to the Head Boy at the very least. It was not his business to follow other students around

Was the dislike mutual?
Oh yes.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
No, it was the teacher's job to control the students, not Lily's.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
I think it may have been a combination of all three, depending on who you spoke to. James would have thought it a horrible misunderstanding, Sirius would have thought it a harmless prank, and Snape would have definitely thought that they were trying to kill him. He thought that all his life and that bothers me, one usually subscribes motives to other people because that is how you would have acted.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
I would like to think so. If there had been no war perhaps all of them would have matured in a healthy enough manner, but I sincerely doubt that Snape would have forgiven and forgotten because Lily was always going to be James soul mate and I don't think Snape would have adjusted to that well at all.


Were Snape's actions toward Lupin in POA guided by his old grudge?
No, he made the potion for Remus every single month and did it very well indeed. I think he thought that Remus was a risk and he thought that Sirius was pertly responsible for Lily's death. That he would never let go of.

Who of them grew out of it?
I think James had started to grow out of it in school. By the time he and Lily were Head Boy and Girl together and they started going out, IMO it was over and done with. I don't think that Remus and Sirius would have been interested either, and Peter. Well he would have just gone with the flow. I don't think Snape ever grew out of it. I think it was a hurt he cherished his whole life.[/LIST]

Ready? Go! :D[/QUOTE]

How... brave of you, Moriath. :rotfl:

* Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
Yes. Rowling.
Other than that... the Giant Squid, one of Aragog's relatives, or a lightning bolt straight to the head - no Snape or Marauders, no enmity. :D

* What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
Wrong? Nothing. They were all absolutely right in their behaviour... or at least so they thought. :rolleyes:

* Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
From his POV? Absolutely, and then some. They were the only physical threat to his existence at school - we're not exactly shown Snape being chased around by a mob of angry Ravenclaws, are we? He was simply eliminating the danger to himself.

From their POV? Hell, no! He was this oddball with Dark Arts tendencies, and they were just having a spot of harmless fun...

* Was the dislike mutual?
Is Hagrid half giant? :lol:

* Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
Lily? She spent her school years not talking to one or the other, so how could she 'conciliate' anyone? :huh:

* Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
Both. I'm convinced Black lacked the imagination to realize all the possible outcomes, but I have no doubt he thought Snape had being scared ****less 'coming to him'.

* Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
No. At that age, something else would have happened to perpetuate the conflict.
As for 'ever'... see Potter and Malfoy.

* Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Which actions? The brewing of Wolfsbane or accusing him of acting as an accomplice to an Azkaban escapee? :relax:

* Who of them grew out of it?
The ones who hated never got to grow, the ones who grew never really hated. :no:

Get it all out! :yuhup:

Erm...OK, if you insist. :D

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

Perhaps not prevent, but certainly, ameliorate the effects of, yes. The sort of anti-bullying programs in place in, say, the school system my kids attend would have helped. But such odd Muggle innovations had clearly not made their way into Hogwarts even in Harry's day. :lol:

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

James was a jerk in this scene (rather like Draco after him, in PS/SS, though Draco at least refrained from putting down a House in front of someone who had already declared for it). He had no business butting into a conversation between two people he did not know to insult them, as we see him do below:

“But we’re going!” he said, unable to suppress the exhilaration his voice. “This is it! We’re off to Hogwarts!”

She nodded, mopping her eyes, but in spite of herself, she half smiled.

“You’d better be in Slytherin,” said Snape, encouraged that she had brightened a little.

“Slytherin?”

One of the boys sharing the compartment, who had shown no interest at all in Lily or Snape until that point, looked around at the word, and Harry, whose attention had been focused entirely on the two beside the window, saw his father: slight, black-haired like Snape, but with that indefinable air of having been well-cared for, even adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked.

“Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I’d leave, wouldn’t you?” James asked the boy lounging on the seats opposite him, and with a jolt, Harry realized that it was Sirius. Sirius did not smile.

As a practical matter, if Sev had changed the subject or otherwise ignored James' rudeness, things might have gone differently (though there is no way to know for sure, Sev did nothing provocative to begin with so, his interest caught, James might for all we know have continued needling him until he did get a reaction). However, Sev's reaction was a fairly predictable, and likewise easily ignorable, *** for tat one with which I have no problem. Being a walking doormat is also not a protection against students who go out of their way to be unpleasant.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

Yes, generally speaking. It would seem to me he was driven to this by his inability to obtain redress by less drastic means, and I consider that a person has some right to attempt to ensure their own physical safety and emotional well-being. Going outside at night to a place specifically out of bounds to students may not have been the wisest way to go about this, however. ;)

While the "Worst Memory" took place after the "Prank", there is much in it that suggests to me that Snape was not infrequently a victim of the Marauders' bullying. To wit:

Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face.

"Round" or hunched shoulders are indicative of a habitually defensive posture, and a twitchy manner could also reflect this.

Harry looked over his shoulder yet again and saw, to his delight, that Snape had settled himself on the grass in the dense shadows of a clump of bushes.

Snape's choice of spot to review also suggests defensiveness. Dense shadow is not the optimal environment for reading anything, more light would be better. It does, however, offer concealment.

We then have:

"This'll liven you up, Padfoot," said James quietly. "Look who it is..."

Sirius's head turned. He had become quite still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.

"Excellent," he (Sirius) said softly. "Snivellus."

Look at what James and Sirius say to one another. James does not suggest any particular course of action, he merely points out the presence of Sev in the vicinity, and Sirius is suddenly not bored. To me, their lack of need to discuss anything suggests the actions in which they then engage, are a familiar activity, No explanations are needed. We see this also in the contrasting reactions of Peter and Remus when all James and Sirius have done is to stand up, again even though James and Sirius explain nothing of what it is they intend:

Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the O.W.L. paper in his bag. As he emerged from the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up. Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows. Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face.

I take Remus's reaction to indicate shamed disapproval. He knows what is going to happen, he objects to it, but he lacks the courage to express his objections to his friends (as he admits elsewhere). Peter's reaction suggests he, too, knows what to expect, and is experiencing pleasant anticipation. I do not see how these four characters could all know so much about what to expect, if what we are seeing were not similar to other events in the past on the basis of which they can all anticipate what is about to happen in this instance.

Sev's own reaction when accosted, in my opinion, supports this reading as well:

"All right, Snivellus?" said James loudly.

Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: Dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes, and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, "Expelliarmus!"

Either the objective narrator, or the hostile-to-Sev Harry, suggest Snape is expecting an attack, on the basis of James' single phrase of greeting (albeit, using an unfriendly nickname). In my opinion, this is because in previous instances, such remarks have prefaced attacks.

In addition to the clues cited above from a scene in which we see James and Sirius in action, we have the expressed opinions of several characters to support the reading offered above.

Firstly, within the same scene Lily Evans calls James a "bullying toerag", suggesting he has done things in the past that would lead her to class him as a bully.

And later, we get Remus and Sirius's comments on the scene to Harry, which again suggest this sort of scene was not a one-time occurence.

"Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?"

Note the repeated use by Remus of "ever". Remus is not referring merely to his failing in the one scene Harry has come to ask about. He apparently believes there were many occasions on which he ought to have told his friends to "lay off Snape".

In light of what I consider overwhelming evidence that Snape was a victim of bullying which took the form of both taunting and physical (magical) attacks, he was placed, in school, in a position no child should be expected to tolerate. His attempts to protect himself are therefore justifiable.

Was the dislike mutual?

Yes. Disparaging remarks by Marauders about Sev and vice versa, abound in canon. I wil save my typing hand and not enumerate them.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

I think she should have placed this matter before school authorities. She seemed a happy and confident girl who would have known to do so in her Muggle school. At Hogwarts, she may have initially felt a fish out of water. But by fifth year, she was clearly popular with students and teachers, and most likely, also a school prefect. (This last I suppose, as she was Head Girl her seventh year).

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

Malicious. Not necessarily a sincere murder attempt as Sev saw it, I am willing to accept Sirius as a teen never gave things a second thought, but definitely malicious. There is nothing harmless about a transformed werewolf.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

No. I do not see it as the defining moment of that relationship. It;s just one of a few highlighs (lowlights?) that are presented us either through narration by the characters themselves, or through the Pensieve.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

I would say no, but I find the question poorly phrased. Because of his personal experiences with the Marauders, Severus saw Remus as a personality who would go along with a friend, however despicable that friend's actions. (In addition to two quotes above from OotP that show Remus acted in this way in school, we should also note that Remus and Sirius remained friends after the "prank".) This is a valid reason to distrust someone, when their friend the escaped fugitive, appears to be receiving assistance from an unknown third party. And in the Shrieking Shack scene, Lupin actually states, where Severus can hear him, that he is guilty.

But Severus would not have this valid reason for distrust were it not for the past they share.

Who of them grew out of it? Severus and Remus. Sirius did not grow out of it, and James did not grow, since he spent the series being dead. My reasons for thinking so?

Severus: Became Albus's spy to protect James Potter and his son (among others. ;) ) Took steps to ensure Sirius was not in danger when it seemed he might be, in OotP. Made Lupin his potion throughout PoA, and attempted to save his life in DH (the scene in which Harry sees him accidentally injure George while trying to attack a Death Eater who has Lupin in his sights). In other words, he never liked any of the Marauders (and why on Earth would he?!), and it did not prevent him as an adult, once he made his choice to betray Voldemort, from acting appropriately towards them on the big picture matters. Peter was an enemy, Severus would no more need to have an improved attitude towards little Peter to be "growing out" of some sort of childhood phase, than any Marauder would. Severus, anyway, never threatened to kill the guy. :lol:

Remus: Just as Severus never came to like any of the Marauders, Remus did not like Snape (and why would he?!) But he was able to be fair to him in, for example, HBP, acknowledging his role and contributions. That this changed after Snape's apparent murder of Dumbledore is not a sign of regression by Lupin, but a reasonable attitude to form on the basis of this (mistaken) impression. To me Lupin seemed particularly vehement, which to me mirrors Severus's own vehemence towards Remus in PoA. Both had valid reasons for their distrust, so there was nothing holding back their instinctive emotional reactions to each other. It is nice to have proof one was always right about someone one dislikes. I would consider this a universal human failing rather than a sign of immaturity, on the part of both Severus and Remus.

Sirius: Never gave up his suspicions of Snape, never gave up needling him. 'Nuff said. There may be reasons why Sirius did not "grow up" at all, and this may have been part of it, but nonetheless, this remains true.

James - like I said, died very young. I am given no reason to suppose he "grew out" of anything.

And of course, we always forget little Peter. He never liked Snape, but I do not see this as something arising out of something childhood-specific. Peter never grew a backbone, and this dictated all his actions and relationships. So as a schoolboy he enjoyed being a friend of the popular Marauders and watching them bully less fortunate students. And as an adult, he recognized in Snape a dangerous wizard with no reason to like Peter, and rival Death Eater, and was appropriately wary of him.

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders? What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
People started getting defensive about the houses. James was supporting Gryffindor and Snape felt the need to defend Slytherin. It could have probably been prevented if either of them could simply forget, but James liked a good laugh so it was either Snape or someone else. Snape wasn't the type to just let things go. And then there was the rivalry over Lily.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
Definitely not. There are other people to take care of that matter. And he sought to humiliate Lupin who never really showed any contempt towards Snape.

Was the dislike mutual?
Yes, but Snape probably disliked them a lot more than they disliked him. Remus and Peter probably didn't really hate him but just watched on as Sirius and James did their thing.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
That's out of question. When she was close friends with Snape, she pretty much hated the Marauders. But by the time she accepted her feelings for James, her friendship with Snape was already torn apart.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
A prank gone wrong. It was obviously deliberate but I'm quite sure they didn't want to seriously hurt Snape as James stopped him when I realized some of the full consequences.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
No. If we take Harry and Draco as an example: their enmity was on a much smaller scale, but they were still on non-speaking terms by the time "Ninteen Years Later" came around. In addition to that, the Marauders-Severus case didn't have a "Battle of Hogwarts" for James or Sirius to actually do something undeniably courageous to save Snape's life, or vice versa. The werewolf incident wasn't exactly Snape's idea of undeniable courage.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Who of them grew out of it?
I don't think the Snape-Lupin thing was more than a little bit of dislike for Lupin being friends with his enemies, as Lupin didn't really have much to do with it. Peter was the "out of place" Marauder and didn't have much to do with it either. It was mainly Sirius and James. Sirius and James were the actual ones involved, and they evidently didn't grow out of it. But I suppose Snape eventually learned to accept.

1. Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
I don't think so. It was not unlike Harry's and Ron's loathing of Draco.

2. What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
People arguing about which House they want to go into.

3. Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
Definitely not. We all have been bullied at one point or another, but nobody would want their detractors expelled, would they?

4. Was the dislike mutual?
Is the sky blue? Yeah, of course.

5. Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
No. When she was close with Snape, she hated the Marauders. But when she went out with James (and became good friends with the other Marauders-as evidence of her letter to Sirius), she already broke off her friendship with Snape.

6. Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
It was malicious. Much as I like Sirius, I feel he was trying to get even with Snape and thus, was malicious.

7. Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
No.

8. Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Yes.

9. Who of them grew out of it?
Remus. Snape never really grew out of it, looking at his treatment of Remus and Sirius, and even Harry. Yes, he may have protected Harry, but if Harry was not Lily's son, I don't think he would have.

This is a great topic. For discussion (am I being too hopeful?) too.
Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
Well, no. I think it was just circumstantial. Snape happened to live close to Lily, he met her before Hogwarts, and liked her. Obviously Lily and James would have met no matter what because they were noth in the same year and in Gryffindor, and James falling for Lilyisn't something anyone could have stopped. Sirius, Lupin and Wormy sort of hero-worshipped James, who I think was jealous of Snape and Lily's friendship (I mean, he didn't really have any other profound reason for disliking Snape did he? "Well, it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean" - Snape's Worst Memory, OOTP) and so if James made an enemy out of someone, it was sort of inevitable for the other three to follow. So, since neither Snape's nor James' attraction for Lily could have technically been prevented, I think the answer to this one is no.
What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
Not sure about this one. I guess it was just that Snape and James had been brought up to think of different houses as the best, and to look down on anyone who thought otherwise, and neither of them were cowards, right? So they weren't going to take each other's comments lying down... which points out the difference between Snape and Sirius, both of whom were brought up listening to praises of Slytherin, but ended up being sorted into different houses. Dumbledore himself vaguely hinted (POA) that Snape should (maybe) have been in Gryffindor... I wonder what the sorting hat saw in Snape's head that it didn't see in Sirius' - or the other way round? Sorry for rambling a bit on this one, but I think it was just pre-sorting inter-house rivalry, the sort that could probably have sprung up between Ron and Malfoy had they been in a similar situation.
Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
Obviously not. The Marauders weren't doing what they were doing for glory or adventure or anything, they were doing it to help out Lupin. OK, maybe a little for adventure. But it wasn't at all selfish, and I think it didn't deserve punishment at all. In fact, it was pretty impressive for three underage wizards to manage to become Animagi in the first place. If James didn't have a good reasonfor disliking Snape, well neither did Snape have one for disliking James. I think Snape was totally unjustified in following them like that.
Was the dislike mutual?
Yes, definitely, (though maybe not with Lupin or Pettigrew so much), and for the same reason too - Lilly. As I said before, James and Snape didn't really have any other reason to hate each other from the beginning, at least not before Snape decided to become a DE. Think about it. If James had fallen for someone else (which I find hard to imagine, but anyway), Snape would probably have been a lot less insecure about Lily and might not have become a DE at all, under her influence. (In Snape's Character Analysis, I've written about this in more detail.) Then Snape and James wouldn't really have a reason to be enemies, except for maybe the taken-for-granted- Gryffindor-Slytherin enemity. I've rambled on this one again, sorry, but yes, the dislike was most certainly mutual.
Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
I doubt.
Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
Hmm... actually I can't fathom what made James and Sirius do something so terrible. They don't seem the sort to do that sort of thing without provocation, do they? I mean, Harry got all upset when he (unknowingly) used Sectumsempra on Malfoy, even though Malfoy had been attempting the Cruciatus curse on him at that time... but maybe that's just the difference between James and Harry. Now I come to think of it, Snape invented Sectumsempra... maybe there was an evil side to Snape, which made James and Sirius retaliate... but it's hard to imagine an evil side to James or Sirius, isn't it?
I hardly think it could have been a 'harmless prank gone wrong', I mean, James and Sirius knew perfectly well what would happen if Snape was confined with Lupin in the Shrieking Shack. So I am inclined to think it was a misunderstanding, but maybe that's just naive... I'm not sure. Is it?
Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
Well... maybe the bitterness between Snape and Sirius wouldn't have been quite so... bitter. Lupin got over his grudge anyway. But Snape would never have told Sirius why he'd come over to the good side, would he? ("Never tell, Dumbledore... never tell" - DH) So I don't think there would ever have been a complete truce.
Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Yes, that, and he wanted Lupin's job, and he hated Sirius and knew Lupin would try to help Sirius out.
Who of them grew out of it?
Lupin.

Well, I'm going to choose to ignore the questions this time (insightful and interesting as they were), and just pour it all out. I've read no previous posts; this is my response to the mods' original post alone.


This is my opinion. It's all based on careful readings of canon, but it is still my subjective interpretation. If you don't agree with some or even all of what I say, please don't take it personally. :)



During the time when the Marauders and Snape were all at school, I honestly can't find it in me to apply more blame to one than to another. I think all the evidence is that they all "gave as good as they got", and that both sides were very much able to defend themselves and to retaliate in kind. I don't think was wise, I don't think it was good; but at least it wasn't a case of heartless bully/s and helpless victim/s. The Werewolf prank was undoubtedly mean-spirited and incredibly unwise; but I'm one-hundred percent certain that Snape would have pulled a similar prank on Sirius or James with a light heart, given the opportunity.

And so it's years after the events at school when Snape, in my view, becomes the "bad guy" (for lack of a better term) in the relationship. He was given countless opportunities to forgive and let the past be behind him, and he did not take them. That, in my opinion, shows a seriously flawed character; and it's because of Snape's vindictive side, the side unwilling to let go of his venomous grudges, that his relationships with Lupin and, through Harry, with James, stay so poisonous throughout his life. The year Lupin taught at Hogwarts he pretty much smothered Snape with obvious signs of willing friendship and desire for mutual forgiveness. Snape coldly ignored him; JK goes out of her way to show us the expression of utter loathing on Snape's face when he even looks at Lupin. And then, at the end of the school year, he goes completely outside the pale of actions which could, even in the most vague way, be construed as right or good. He goes behind Dumbledore's back, defying his strict orders in the most skulking and cowardly manner possible in order to get Lupin sacked; and that's only after the pleasant plans he details in the Shrieking Shack don't go as planned! And indeed, it's for his words and actions in said Shack, out of everything he does in the series, that I really can't forgive him. If his malice had been directed at Sirius I could have understood it; he held Sirius responsible for Lily's death and a mass-murderer into the bargain, which might cause anyone to stress out a bit. ;) However, unfortunately, his spite was not taken out on Sirius, but on Lupin. Even apart from his obvious physical abuse of Lupin in the Shack (Snape bound him so tightly that he couldn't feel his hands when Sirius untied him; surely that wasn't called for?), I think the revelation that Snape was willing to give Lupin (someone who had never done him any harm, had treated him with constant friendship and kindness, and certainly had no legal charges against him) and Sirius (to the best of Snape's knowledge, a demented Death Eater, psychotic mass-murderer, and the instrument of Lily's death) up to the same horrible fate, shows that legal justice was the farthest thing from Snape's mind. Twenty years worth of completely personal spite, rage, and venom against the Marauders (not any specific one out of the four, just for them in general) was spewing out and spattering everyone equally. He didn't care which of them he hurt, which of them he saw reduced to a horrifying, soulless shell; he just wanted to hurt them. Snape acted insane in this portion of the book; irrational, unbalanced, and absolutely vindictive. To do him justice, this is definitely not his usual manner of reaction; being knocked out for a few hours cools him down enough to take charge of the situation in a responsible way- whatever unjust use he makes of it to the Minister. However, I do think that the rage and hate resulting from his seeing Lupin and Sirius and James's son all standing together in the Shack was too much for him, and he literally lost his mind: in a bad way.

Sirius, of course, does absolutely nothing to patch things up with Snape, even later when Dumbledore succeeds in creating artificial civility between them. He retains the demeaning nickname the Marauders gave Snape in school, as well as countless other indications that he's as far from forgetting and forgiving as Snape is. His and Snape's enmity and constant exchange of mean-spirited jabs continues with no hint of either of them ever seeking reconciliation; and in their mutual hatred I think that both of them were equally to blame.

And, of course, Snape's relationship with Harry must factor into this discussion somewhere. I, personally, think that Snape genuinely loathed Harry. He never stopped hating him. This comes out in his every word and every action directed at Harry throughout the series, and I don't think it can be brushed aside in a balanced discussion of the realtionship between Snape and the Marauders. Snape's love for Lily and his hatred of James clashed excruciatingly in this one boy, and I personally think the hatred dominated Snape's emotions. His brain wanted to keep Harry alive; his heart hated him. He would have given his life to save Harry's, but he would never have lost an opportunity to make Harry's life miserable while he still had it. And this is not an exemplary championship. A better, or at least, a different, man would have put aside his loathing of Harry's father in favor of his love for Harry's mother, and embraced her child like a son. But Snape, while not knowing anything about Harry's personality or very soul, looks at him with such loathing that the boy, aged eleven, can feel it across an enormous, crowded room. And that, in my opinion, says quite a bit about Snape's character.

So, I conclusion, I think that the Marauders and Snape were both to blame for the enmity which persisted between them for so long; but Snape could have ended it and didn't, he spurned or ignored any attempts from others at reconciliation, and that's what convinces me, looking at the big picture, he was more at fault than they were. :)

..... :wow: *dons a suit of armor, runs into an underground bunker, and locks herself in a steel box in preparation for the end of the world* :eeep:

This stuff's my opinion, of course.

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

Well, yes. James could have been nicer on the train, Sev may have decided he didn't care and ceased following them, Remus could have put his foot down...etc. I think, though, that those things would have been very unlikely if we consider the people involved and how their personalities, upbringing, and limitations led them to make the choices they did. Remus, for example, was a werewolf, and so it would have been unlikely that he'd risk his only friends. And Sirius was rebelling against a family that held the same views as Severus: recipe for disaster.

I think it was preventable, but it seems to me that circumstances practically ensured it.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

IMO, this falls mainly on James. Severus was attempting to comfort Lily after having made a social gaffe, and then James perks up at the mention of a House Severus has shown interest in and makes a disparaging remark about that House.

I've looked over this part a lot, and I often wonder why James would say this. He evidently had no trouble with his social skills, and yet it seems odd for him to just go ahead and offend someone he hasn't met. One idea I had was that maybe he was parroting something his dad would have said, but since we don't have much canon on the elderly Potters, I don't think I can back that theory up with anything really substantial. :blush:

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

I don't really look at it much as something to be justified or not. :hmm: I think Severus had a couple motives here. First, he'd want to get them into enough trouble that they wouldn't target him again. Second, it seems, from the crowd's reaction in SWM, that the general student body (and possibly some of the faculty) was not on his "side." If he could get proof of what the Marauders got up to, he could gain affirmation. Third, Severus appears (by fifth year) to be concerned that Lily may be interested in James. If he could find out what they were up to, he could show her their true colors.

Was the dislike mutual?

...Is there any indication that it wasn't? :hmm:

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

I think the question is "Would she...?"
Reconciliation is always possible, but the longer the enmity goes on, the harder it would become to reconcile. It would take a lot of effort on her part to do that, and she has a life to lead and homework to do.
In addition, why would she want to bring them together when they've shown so clearly their dislike? It wasn't necessary (at least, from her standpoint) that they become friends.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

Well, while I believe that Sirius gave some consideration his plan, I don't think he truly realized what the consequences would be. I think he wanted to frighten Severus, not kill him. However, I wouldn't call it a harmless prank, since, IMO, Sirius was behaving very irresponsibly with Severus' and Remus' lives, and using the protections Dumbledore created for Remus' safety and privacy for his personal revenge.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

Hmm...Good question. That whole incident was a huge turning point. Lily grew interested in James, and Severus' beef with the Marauders became even more personal. I don't think they would have made a truce on their own had it not happened, but I think it would have made reconciliation somewhat easier.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

I believe that Severus' experiences regarding Lupin made him very likely to believe that the man would condone his friends' actions no matter how terrible. And while his main suspicion was wrong, Remus himself does admit that by not telling Dumbledore of the Amimagus transformations though fear of the man's disappointment, Severus has not been completely off.

Who of them grew out of it?

You'll have to define "it." :lol: I don't think it wrong of any of them to remain angry-- there's a lot of bad memories there, and no one's going to forget anytime soon. I think they all have their immature moments, and I think some grew out different aspects of the whole issue that others didn't. This is the sort of thing I like to judge on a case-by-case basis, since every character will have different motives depending on the situation, and some mitigating circumstances change over time.

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

Yes. I think if James had not jumped into Snape and Lily's private conversation when Snape said he wanted to be in Slytherin that would have gone a long way in lessening the animosity between them. But I think James is actually incapable of restraining himself. I know Sirius hated him as well, but he seemed to be always following James's lead. Such as on the train, all Sirius did was make a comment about his whole family being in Slytherin.

Another thing that would have helped is if Hogwarts did not have a ridiculous system of sorting 11 year old children into separate Houses. That way, no one would hate people for being in Slytherin or look down on them for being in Hufflepuff and so on.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

James's big mouth.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

Maybe. They certainly were doing things that should have gotten them expelled, but Snape should have gone to a professor with his concerns.

Was the dislike mutual?

Professor Snape says, "Obviously"


Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

I don't think so. Too much of the dislike had to do with Lily and it's not like she could have zapped herself out of existence so no one could fixate on her. And I don't think Snape, James or Sirius would have listened to anything Lily had to say concerning the other. Remus would have, but he didn't have much sway over anyone.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

I'm sure to the marauders it was a harmless prank to teach Snape a lesson, but it was a horrible thing to do to anyone, no matter how horrible you think that person is. Snape's life was put in danger; there is nothing harmless or funny abou that.


Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

No.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

I believe so but I think it was a little justified. He knew Lupin was friends with Sirius. It's fishy that when Lupin comes to Hogwarts is the same time Sirius Black, then considered the person who betrayed the Potters, breaks out of Azkaban.


Who of them grew out of it?

I don't think any of them fully grew out of it. The only ones who had growing to do were James, Sirius, and Snape. Lupin was never as bad as the other two. James is dead so we don't get to see if he matured or not. From what we see of Sirius, he matured very little. This is especially apparent in OotP when Snape comes to Grimmauld Place to tell Harry about Occlumency and Sirius acts like a little brat. I think Snape matured but he still took pleasure in ragging on Sirius and James whne he was provoked. But I think it's wrong to insult James so much in front of Harry or Sirius (even though I thought his comments to Sirius in OotP about Harry being so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him very funny and true).

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
I dont know. Somehow, I doubt it. Both sides had faults. James and the gang werent very openminded to other forms of magic, and Snape felt that knowledge is power. So these clashing personalities would lead to a great deal of quarreling.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
Some may blame Snape for his snarky remark but i actually think it was James's doing. He basically bursted in there and was laying down the law that he was so damn cool. Severus pretty much ignored them until James said something about Slytherin being lame and bad. Thats what led to the snark.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
Not really to be honest. He really could have ignored them, problem was, they kept picking on him so he tried to get them into trouble as much as possible. I can see how this can be logical for a kid's mind but alas, it was a little immature.

Was the dislike mutual?
Oh yes. The Marauders thought Severus was a slimy greasy git and terrorized him as much as they could. (Also in order to look cool.)

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
I dont know. Its possible but the rivalry would have never gone away. There would have been tension between James and Severus regardless.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
That was no accident. Sirius pretty much knew what would happen. Not a harmless prank, but i do think that the others (James and Peter) thought it would just scare Severus away from spying on them. Sirius may have thought that as well but i think he knew that Lupin would try to nom Severus's face clean off if given the chance. It was a pretty malicious and nasty prank.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
Its possible that Severus would have grown to ignore them had that not happened. But that made him hate them all the more, and want revenge.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Yeah i think so, however it was clear that Lupin just kinda hung back during the old days when the Marauders would bully Severus. I think Severus was smart enough to realize that Lupin had no control over his actions as a werewolf and doesnt really truly blame Lupin for trying to attack him way back when. All the snark and prodding on Severus's part to Lupin was certainly apart of the grudge.

Who of them grew out of it?
Lupin seemed to be the only one that really put all that behind him. Sirius did not and neither did Severus (to an extent. He was a big enough man to do what he could and work with Lupin and Sirius, but the old grudge never quite died.). Its unclear if James did or not. Even when James started maturing and stopped being a prat to everyone else, he still went after Severus. Lupin: "...Snape was always a 'special' case." :/ When Peter returned to being a human again, he was more or less forced to behave around Snape (see Spinner's End) but Snape found subtle ways to degrade him as much as possible. (again see Spinner's End)

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

I don't think so. I think that it was brought on by the placement in society that Snape and Lily held; Snape being from an abused broken family, yet magical, and Lily being from rather normal family other than being a wizard. I think that it was aggravated by Petunia as well as James as he knew Snape had feelings for Lily. I do think that it could have changed slightly if Snape broke away from his environment and changed his image slightly, but I think that his ego and his possible thought that changing his image would be untrue to himself would have prevented such a transformation from happening.
What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

I think Snape let his ego and his personal pride get the best of him.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

No, I think Snape played into his image of being the outcast, and following the others around only supports the idea that he felt, in a sense, that he deserved to be with Lily. Getting the marauders expelled, would bring the possibility of he and Lily being together, in Snape's mind. I think he would have done it even if they didn't pick on him.

Was the dislike mutual?

Yes, both sides disliked each other, but for different reasons; Snape because the marauders were the thing that stood between Lily and himself, and the Marauders because Snape was the outcast of the class because of his image and retribution on things Snape had previously done to them.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

I don't believe so, not unless she decided to date Snape, which as Lily said in the book after being referred to as a mudblood, wouldn't happen.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

I think it was an attempt to get back at Snape for Snape being different, and for the things that Snape had previously done to the marauders.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

No, Snape's ego and his thought that he deserved to be with Lily stood in the way. If Lily dated Snape it is possible when they reached adulthood a truce would be possible, but I don't think it would be possible at school. Snape would enjoy gloating too much.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

Yes, they were. With Lily gone, there was nothing to relieve the grudge.

Who of them grew out of it?

I think Wormtail did, but I don't think he really ever had a grudge. I think he was just following the stronger personality types of James and Sirius when he was a member of the marauders. I think Lupin did to an extent, but being more of the intellectual of the group, I think he was better at hiding his grudge than the others. I also think that Lupin's trust of Dumbledore, and Dumbledore's allowing Lupin to stay on at school with his "disability," also helped reduce Lupin's grudge as Dumbledore trusted Snape, therefore by extension, on some level, Lupin, at least for a while, trusted Snape. I don't think Lupin's grudge ever really went away though as there is some evidence in the book with the map that Lupin seems to enjoy far too much to have let his grudge go.

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders? Not really. Some people just naturally despise each other. Unless Dumbledore and his Staff made it very clear that any form of Bullying would result in Suspension or Expulsion and followed through on the terms, I don't think it could have been stopped.
What went wrong at their first meeting on the train? Well,
Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled? No, not unless the Staff made it very clear he had no business following them and to let them handle the situation.
Was the dislike mutual? Yes.
Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them? No, not at all. Some kids naturally hate another kid and nothing but their world coming crashing down around them, will change things.
Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"? It was a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him". Sirius despised him and wanted to show him who was boss, to teach him a lesson. I'm sure his intention was "Hey, if he's afraid of us and leaves us alone for that reason, all the better". He was a teenager and didn't see the bigger picture and what could have happened to all involved.
Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce? No.
Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge? Yes, his grudge over ruled common sense. Some people never get over a "Grudge". While to outsiders, other people it may seem like a grudge and he should have gotten over it, to him, just seeing Lupin brought back very bad memories and feelings and he wanted him to pay for what he felt Lupin got away with.
Who of them grew out of it? Remus.

I wonder if Snape knew Sirius before they met on the train. I just wondered because I thought it was Sirius who called him Snivellus. I think there wasn't anything that could have prevented the animosity between them. Snape was jealous of James and Sirius. Both boys were obviously well to do and had families that loved them (I think Sirius parent's didn't turn against him till later).
Should Snape followed the Mauraders around, trying to get them expelled? Well. I just think it was the jealously that clouded Snape's judgement.
The "werewolf incidence", I thought was Sirius' attempt to teach Snape a lesson in not being so nosy.

Could Lily help to reconcile them? I don't think so. Lily didn't like the way Snape treated Petunia. It took a long time, but, Lily finally saw Severus for what he really was, prejudice against Muggleborns.
Who grow out of it? Remus did, and I think James and Lily did before they died. Not sure about Peter. Sirius and Snape didn't get over their grudges.

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

I think dislike might have been inevitable, but emnity was something they chose.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

I think House bias reared its ugly head. James and Severus had strong "my-House-is-better-than-your-House" opinions.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

No, I do not think Severus was justified in his actions. The only motive he ever gave was that he didn't want Lily to like James. I feel that targetting Lupin was especially egregious, as Severus had seen Madam Pomfrey lead Lupin to the Whomping Willow, so he must have known that the staff was aware of and were taking care of Lupin's condition. So I think Severus's plan must have been to tell the school and have Lupin hounded out by the students and parents.

Was the dislike mutual?

The dislike was mutual. The emnity? I think that Severus and Sirius and James expressed emnity, and Peter too. Lupin I feel also disliked Severus, but I didn't see the emnity, even after the Prank.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

I can't think of anything she could reasonably have done, or could reasonably be expected to do.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

I don't think Severus or Sirius thought the dangers out all the way. Severus seems to have suspected that Lupin was a werewolf, and he knew the staff wanted Lupin to be where he was, but Severus went anyway. I think Sirius would have been darkly amused had Snape been bitten by a werewolf and ended up in the same situation as Lupin-- an outcast in danger of being thrown out of school if his condition were revealed. I think Sirius would have been doubly amused because Severus was on the Death Eater Wannabe track, and would turn into something that the Purebloodists would despise. I don't think the serious ramifications of the situation occured to Sirius. They did to James, though, as he risked his life to stop it. Lupin didn't know anything about the Prank until it was over. No mention of Peter being involved was made that I can remember.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

They could have even with the Prank, in my opinion, depending on how they all chose to deal with it. Severus and Sirius could have shouldered the blame for their parts in it, for example. Severus could have recognized that all the Marauders weren't in on it and thanked James for saving his life. But jealosy over Lily was getting in the way, I think. James came out of the Prank as a hero, and I don't think Severus could stand that. Also, in PoA, both Lupin and Snape marked the Prank as the beginning of Snape's loathing of Lupin, so I gathered from that that prior to the Prank Snape has no great animosity towards Lupin. I think Lupin was targetted by Severus before that simply because he was James's friend, and Severus was trying to get at James in a round about way. So I think the Prank did cause emnity where there was none before, because Severus had decided that Lupin was in on it when really he was not. The prank does seem to mark a point of escalation in Severus's and the Marauders emnity, because before it occured the Marauders don't seem to single out Severus for picking on purposes (Pre-prank Severus doesn't mention it as a motive, nor does Lily, nor any of the other Maruders). After the Prank, everybody's attitudes seem to have taken a turn for the worse.

There was also the war to consider. I think the Marauders and Severus being on the opposite sides of deeper moral issues that divided the Wizarding World, and Voldemort's spreading reign of terror, murder, and bigotry, were issues that loomed ever larger with each passing year at Hogwarts.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

I think Snape's loathing of Lupin because of the old grudge definitely colored his actions towards Lupin. I think Snape saw the Marauders as a set rather than individuals.

Who of them grew out of it?

Lupin never seemed to hold a grudge, even at school. But I'd say he matured and grew out of his dislike for Snape. Sirius still held the old grudge, but I think it was more because he suspected Snape-- someone Sirius felt was into the Dark Arts and had heard use the term "Mudblood"-- continued with his old behavior and became a Death Eater. I thought Sirius was very reasonable about Snape in GoF, when Sirius thought Snape could not have ever been a Death Eater afterall because Sirius thought Dumbledore would never hire a former Death Eater to work in a school. All that tolerance went away, in my opinion, when Sirius learned at the end of GoF that Snape had indeed been a Death Eater. I think Sirius was reasonable to be leery, given that he was not ever given a reason to trust Snape and Snape was given close access to Sirius's godson. It's hard to say with James, but I don't see any evidence that he was thinking at all about Snape once he was an adult and with the Order. They don't seem to have crossed paths as Order Member vs. Death Eater. I think for James it was always out-of-sight-out-of-mind with Snape. I don't know how much schoolboy things would have weighed on his mind, anyway. It seems to me that adult James had more pressing things to worry about. Snape seems to have held onto the grudge. He often talks about it, and refers to schoolboy James as if he is Harry's grown up father, which always struck me as weird.

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

Don't think this can be answered easily. Of course something or someone could have made a change at the right time. But this is a what if question. But generally I'd say that nothing really could have turned them into best buddies. Their mutual dislike was too deep for that. Even not Lily who was interacting with both of them was able to do anything.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
n/a don't remember anymore

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

Personally, I think this is pathetic. To dislike someone is one thing, but to deliberately get the person into trouble or try to cause them harm by ratting on them is another thing.

Was the dislike mutual?

Of course it was. Pretty much everything points that out. They never really grew out of it, at least not Snape and Sirius.

Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?

To be honest IMO not even she could have done something to stop them loathing eachother. On the surface maybe, but deep inside I don't think so.

Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

It was stupid of Sirius to send him. I guess he wasn't aware of the possible outcome thinking of it as a harmless prank. I don't think though that he send him with the intention to cause him serious harm, he didn't think it through IMO.

Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

Absolutelly not, this was just the tip of the iceberg. It was far bigger than this.

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

Yes, he probably still thought that Lupin was into the prank and knew about it. Snape probably never forgave him for that.

Who of them grew out of it?

IMO only Lupin. Snape and Sirius were snarling at eachother till the rest of their lifes.

Gasp! Thanks for this! Oh how I wish I could type replies....

1.Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
I think that it was possible for the Marauders and Snape to not be as hostile to each other as they were. The dislike was something they couldn't control for whatever reason but I think if they ignored each other or stayed out of each others way it wouldn't have been as big a deal. The Marauders wouldn't have gone out of their way to bully Snape. So to a certain degree it could have been prevented, imo.

2.What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
The Marauders got into a conversation that wasn't theirs and they heard about Snape wanting to be in Slytherin. The fact that Snape wanted to be in that house was enough for James and Sirius to detest him already. They didn't like Slytherins. It got worse when Sirius called Snape Snivellus and James tried to trip him.

3.Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
I don't think Snape was justified to do that. It's a bit sad on his part if he follows them around just to get them in trouble. I also think Lily may have something to do with it. Snape didn't want James anywhere near her.

4.Was the dislike mutual?
I think it was mutual for everyone except Remus. Remus neither hated Snape nor liked him. I think it's silly to even question this about the other Marauders, though.

5.Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
I don't think she could. When she was friends with Snape she hated the Marauders. When she was dating James she was no longer friends with Snape.

6.Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
Of course Sirius wanted to play a prank on Snape because he hated him with a passion. However I don't think Sirius thought his idea through fully. As much as Sirius disliked Snape I don't think he would feel too good about himself if he was the cause of Snape's death. I know Sirius was cruel sometimes and that could have been from his family. Growing up around people who are cruel all the time can rub off on you occasionaly even if you don't agree with your family's beliefs. James probably saw this incident as just a prank gone wrong and Snape, of course saw it as a malicious attempt to get him killed.

7.Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
I don't think they could ever have a truce. Snape would never forgive them for bullying him at school. Not to mention Lily. Snape loved her too much to let James get away with marrying her without hating him.

8.Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
Probably. Snape can't look past the werewolf incident and he most likely thought Lupin was in on the plan.

9.Who of them grew out of it?
Remus for sure grew out of it. Like I said he never hated Snape like the rest of the Marauders did. Remus knows what it's like to be bullied for who you are and that probably held him back from bullying Snape at school as well. We don't really know about James because he dies too soon. We do know that he stopped hexing Snape as much when he started dating Lily. I don't know if he would get over it or not had he been alive for the rest of the series. Sirius definitely didn'y grow out of it. I'm guessing that a mixture of his lack of trust for Snape and his lack of growing up at all had something to do with it. Sirius still calls Snape Snivellus later on and he still act slike a teenager. I think Azkaban really affected Sirius's ability to mature. Snape didn't really grow out of it either. He still talks about how much he hates James and he still has arguments with Sirius. Snape hates Harry simply for being James's son. I don't think that would come under the catagory of growing out of it.

For the record I love both the Marauders and Snape :)

Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?

A little more maturity from all five of them. A little less tension between the Houses. No war brewing in the outside world. Wishful thinknig in other words.

What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?

House loyalties being taken too seriously. I think James was a little more nervous than he let on about Sorting and went over the top in his House attitudes. As did Snape, when he became defensive. Perhaps out of his own nervousness.

Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?

Absolutely not -that was just malicious, imo, and actually reminds me of PS/SS Malfoy. Except that it seemed to continue beyond first year, showing a lack of maturity, I think. This was a boy who knew plenty of hexes, including those he developed himself and he was sneaking around trying to be underhand and get others expelled. Hexing someone who can hex you in return is one thing, trying to destroy someone's future is taking it to another level altogether. IMO

Was the dislike mutual?

Definitely.


Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
What could she have done? She wasn't on good terms with the Marauders until Seventh Year, when she started dating James. This was over a year since her friendship with Snape ended.
In any case, it wasn't her responsibility to act as mediator.


Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?

Snape believed it was an attempt at murder. I disagree- we see several times that Sirius is reckless - I can very well imagine him telling Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow out of sheer frustration to give him a fright. It was foolish and reckless of Sirius, but not attempted murder, by a long shot, imo.


Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?

If the werewolf incident had never happened? I don't see it in their younger days - Snape still would have become a DE and the Marauders still would have joined the Order- and they still would have held their opposing beliefs in school. Even in later years, without the werewolf incident, there would have been too much water under the bridge from their school years for them to come to a truce. Lupin tries, but he's the only one. I think Sirius wouldn't have wanted to try, especially when they found out Snape had indeed been a DE. And I think Snape was very lucky Sirius never found out who passed the prophecy to Voldemort. :lol:

Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?

Spilling about Lupin's furry little problem? I think that might be more due to anger at being humiliated in front of the Minister and also, Sirius escaping with his soul intact.


Who of them grew out of it?

Lupin. He makes an effort to get on with Snape. His remarks at Christmas in HBP are revealing - he says he neither likes nor dislikes Snape, he knows too much has gone on for them to be friends, but trusts Severus and he bears him no ill will for his revealing his secret.

James - I think he was growing out of it - Lily wouldn't have dated him if he was still that immature. The only hexing he engaged in after that was mutual, with Snape. After he left school and joined the Order, and later had his son's safety to think about, I think Snape was the last thing on his mind.

Wormtail - followed the crowd. We don't see any evidence of him growing past it, he merely gravitates to where he thinks he is safe.

Sirius -No. At school, I think Slytherin symbolised everything he hated about his family, so he didn't grow past disliking Snape. I also think Azkaban stunted his emotional growth. Then, he had fresh dislike for Snape, given his treatment of Harry and the attempt to have him receive the Dementor's Kiss.

Snape- No. He bullied and belittled an eleven-year-old child from the moment he set foot in his class. He insults Harry's dead father in front of him. He can't look beyond the past to see a child who is not responsible for what happened twenty years ago.
He continues to despise Harry. He protects his life because he owes it to Lily but never tries to see the boy as Lily's son, only an outlet for his hatred of James Potter. Evidence enough for me that he didn't grow past it.

Last chance to edit your statements or make one! The clock is ticking. :D

Since you insist...

* Do you think anyone or anything could have prevented the enmity between Snape and the Marauders?
Well, not really. I think that if their first meeting had not been in that train with little boys being little boys and posturing for their friends and generally being obstinate, things could have been very different. But after that, it's so very difficult to get rid of bad feelings toward a person. It can be done, yes, but it is difficult and it requires a genuine want to. I think that drive was lacking on both sides of this particular equation.

* What went wrong at their first meeting on the train?
I think it was a mix of things, and can't really point my finger on any one person. Mainly, it was just children being children - kids are petty, they are generally judgmental, and form those judgments quickly. We don't know why James disliked Slytherin House so much and we will likely never know, but something drove him to speak up in response to a conversation he was not a part of (which, to be quite fair, is a trait all children seem to share :lol:) and it snowballed from there.

* Do you think Snape was justified in following the Marauders around in order to find a reason to get them expelled?
No. I do think he was justified in wanting to get back at the people who often bullied him (one on one I can handle more easily than the two on one of James and Sirius v Severus), but I think his blind hatred of James and Sirius caused Snape to react more harshly than he should have. He lumped all four boys together and viewed them the same way. While Peter may have enjoyed watching, we have no canon (I can't take Snape's biased view as law here, just as I rarely take Sirius' and Remus' biased views that way) that says he ever actually joined in any hexing and we know Remus quietly disapproved. Certainly not the actions I would like to see, but they were more accessories to the bullying than actual perpetrators, in my opinion. That is why I think it was wrong of him to want to follow all of them around and try to get them into the trouble he seemed to view them as getting him into.

* Was the dislike mutual?
Certainly on the parts of Severus and James & Sirius. I'm not convinced Peter disliked Snape; I think it was more that he knew his friends were more powerful (whether separately or together, it doesn't matter) and just as he did later in his life, he backed those he thought were the winners. I don't think Remus ever disliked Severus beyond returning the hostility he was shown.

* Could Lily have done anything to conciliate them?
No. First, it wasn't her place. She was never at any time a mutual friend of the two sides and so had little chance to reconcile them. Second, she did what little she could do in letting James know she did not approve of him and Sirius bullying her one-time friend. She didn't know their hex wars were still going on. I think, from what we know of her character, or her as a person, that had she known she would have made it stop. But it was not her place, not her responsibility, and not her duty to do it.

* Was the "werewolf incident" in which Severus was tricked into following a transformed Lupin to a small space a horrible misunderstanding, harmless prank gone wrong, or a malicious attempt to have Snape "get what was coming to him"?
I find myself between "horrible prank gone wrong" and malicious attempt to have Snape get his comeuppance; Sirius, to my mind, does not think things through the way he should. I think it is part of why he was put in Gryffindor, as we see this same sort of reckless behavior from Harry and Ron throughout the series. I think he was being malicious, but did not intend for Severus to be irreparably damaged. I think he wanted to scare him badly, make him back off from his friends, which to me contains a bit more than harmless mischievousness. I do believe he viewed it as a prank and planned to have himself a good laugh over it. If Snape had actually been hurt, I don't know that he would have been sorry for the loss other than for his direct part in it. But I'm not convinced he would have felt even that much.

* Do you think, if it had not happened, the two sides would have ever come to some sort of truce?
I think that it was a defining point in their mutual hatred in the sense that it cemented it quite thoroughly on at least Snape's part. There is no way after that happened that I could see him ever forgiving Sirius or James.

* Were Snape's actions towards Lupin in PoA guided by his old grudge?
I think in part, they were. He was always bitter over the things that happened in his youth, and in my opinion with good reason to be so. But he did brew Lupin's potion, and brewed it perfectly. I think his tentative truce-like relationship with Remus was shattered the moment he saw him with Sirius.

* Who of them grew out of it?
Remus.

That's it. :lol: Honestly, Severus did not grow out of his bad feelings and I wouldn't expect him to. Sirius didn't, and part of that was due to, I believe, his incarceration at such a young age. James...I think at the time he died, he still likely felt the same way about Snape as he did in school. He had no reason to like him more. If anything, he had reason to let his hatred grow by leaps and bounds.
I don't think Peter's feelings were ever so much about Snape the person as they were about Snape the victim; he seemed quite gleeful all through the books to see people being hurt. I don't think it was something he could grow out of, but rather a part of him.

And the week is over. Thanks for playing. :yuhup: