Romantic moments & that scene in Deathly Hallows

I refuse to believe that she wrote that two moments in the book that someone previously mentioned (the one where Hermione ruffles harrys hair) with the intention of or the possibility of an undercurrent b/w H/Hr. I think she has just sort of, given in on the idea of a different view existing, and she just doesn't want to take them on/ or offend them by imposing her own. Which is ok though, it pains me a little, because I believe the author should have the final word and should be fiercely possessive of their characters, but I guess this is a more selfless thing to do (or selfish if the motives are purely pecuniary, but since I love Rowling with all my heart I will not believe this to be true :) ).


I agree with this. Ever since her interview back in 2005 where JKR practically called Harry/Hermione shippers "delusional" she has been unwilling to say anything remotely controversial (as H/Hr fans got very upset after that interview). JKR doesn't want to alienate any H/Hr fans and as a result in interviews she no longer dismisses them entirely in order to keep them happy.

Unfortunately due to her not wanting to offend anyone JKR doesn't stand up for her work as much as i think she should but i guess that is her decision.

I agree with this. Ever since her interview back in 2005 where JKR practically called Harry/Hermione shippers "delusional" she has been unwilling to say anything remotely controversial (as H/Hr fans got very upset after that interview). JKR doesn't want to alienate any H/Hr fans and as a result in interviews she no longer dismisses them entirely in order to keep them happy.

Unfortunately due to her not wanting to offend anyone JKR doesn't stand up for her work as much as i think she should but i guess that is her decision.

Going as far as saying "It could have happened definitely" is taking it a bit too far in my opinion. I was a little upset when I read that, primarily because I couldn't decide if she has suddenly genuinely seen her characters in a new light, or if she was just taking the easy way out. Her interview sounds like its an attempt to please all fans (Harry/Ginny, R/Hr, H/Hr, everyone is given their due), but I think Kloves has had quite an influence on how she interprets Harry and Hermione too. He has always been a H/Hr shipper, he even said he thought these two were better suited in a number of interviews, in fact it shows a little in the scripts too. I think she might now just believe that as two normal teenagers, that emotional spectrum could exist between H/Hr, even if she never intended for it to exist in the books. I don't like this change of her opinion, because I loved all her R/Hr rambles, and I LOVE the way she has written their relationship over the course of seven books. I think its a beautiful and real love story, and I think she had immense amount of fun writing it too, it really does show. But, I guess somewhere you start believing that your work is bigger than your own ideas, which is not wrong really, though it upsets me nonetheless because having Jo as a shipper was awesome :D.
She could maybe publish the Silver Doe in Hermione's and the Battle of Hogwarts in Ron's POV's just to sort of spread more good cheer in the fandom :p.

I really hope that JKR isn't beginning to believe the rubbish that Kloves, Heyman and Yates have been saying. I hope she is stronger than that and no matter what anyone else says she maintains her convictions about her characters and her universe and doesn't let anyone change her mind.

There were a million signs that Ron and Hermione had feelings for one another and Harry and Hermione did not and it would have been beyond ridiculous for Harry and Hermione to end up together in the final book.

I really hope that JKR isn't beginning to believe the rubbish that Kloves, Heyman and Yates have been saying. I hope she is stronger than that and no matter what anyone else says she maintains her convictions about her characters and her universe and doesn't let anyone change her mind.

There were a million signs that Ron and Hermione had feelings for one another and Harry and Hermione did not and it would have been beyond ridiculous for Harry and Hermione to end up together in the final book.

That goes without saying! I don't think she even for a moment believe that she messed up with R/Hr. She totally stands by them still I think, she LOVES them in fact. I just think where she earlier could never understand how people could see Harry/Hermione together, and she was very vocal about it, she now seems to accept that such an interpretation can exist. I don't know if its either because she just wants peace in her world and doesnt want any more hate mail, or if its because some of her close friends (Kloves being one) have sort of explained to her how her writing itself can be interpreted to give credence to the other viewpoint too. That is the only shift in stand she has had. Which I still dont understand, I mean, in the books I just don't see how anyone could ever consider Harry and Hermione, irrespective of how compatible they seem to be, because I think passion trumps compatibility anyday, and passion breeds compatibility in the long run anyway.
I have read a few other posts in the interim, and I agree with the view that the H/Hr though hinted at in the movies till now (primarily, i still believe, to keep all sections of the fan base happy) they have also established it well and good that Ron and Hermione are it. Its in subtle moments that aren't loud, but are still focussed upon. Which was my one gripe with the actors actually; I think Emma outdid herself in DH1, i mean, my god. I was shocked to see her act like she did, I thought it was a brilliant performance, and same goes for Rupert and even Dan did better than he usually does. But my one issue is, that Rupert and Emma never weave in their characters affection and comfort in the scenes that arent focussed on them, or in scenes where they haven't been asked to project a certain emotion. What I mean to say is, that if you are playing two characters for over a decade, and you know them really well, then in your performance as those characters you go beyond the script and embody them in every scene. I feel there should a continuous comfort that should flow between Ron and Hermione which I don't see, unless they are actively acting towards it, in underplayed scenes, but scripted scenes nonetheless.

None of us is JK. Please leave out speculations about the author's motivation and stick to the topic of romance in the films and what it means for you. Thanks! :)

But my one issue is, that Rupert and Emma never weave in their characters affection and comfort in the scenes that arent focussed on them, or in scenes where they haven't been asked to project a certain emotion. What I mean to say is, that if you are playing two characters for over a decade, and you know them really well, then in your performance as those characters you go beyond the script and embody them in every scene. I feel there should a continuous comfort that should flow between Ron and Hermione which I don't see, unless they are actively acting towards it, in underplayed scenes, but scripted scenes nonetheless.

I know what you mean.

I've felt that Rupert and Emma have never quite had the spark they had in the first three films. A particular favourite of mine is when Hermione tells Ron she has been doing some light reading before slamming a HUGE book on the table. Ron sarcastically says something along the lines of, "This is light reading!?" and Emma gives him the most terrifying, Hermione glare. It's totally Ron and Hermione.

I also liked it in PS, when Harry leaves hospital wing to find Hermione and Ron in the middle of a conversation and in PoA when Harry meets them to go to school and again, they are in the middle of a conversation. I always felt that during the mundane days when someone isn't trying to kill Harry, that Hermione and Ron were particularly chatty and that Harry often just listened. I don't think this has quite come across in the films in a long time. I watched HBP and counted the amount of times Ron and Hermione talk directly to each other. Not to Harry, whilst the other listens. To each other. I only got so far as their estrangement and they had a total of 18 lines of dialogue BETWEEN them.

The rest was spoken to the other, through Harry.

So it isn't just Emma and Rupert's fault. It's something wrong in the script.

And I've always felt Ron/Hermione scenes or bits are treated very distantly by the directors (except Columbus strangely who I'm not actually a fan of). That they should put more emphasis on their facial expressions, reactions and making them tell the scene.

And I've always felt Ron/Hermione scenes or bits are treated very distantly by the directors (except Columbus strangely who I'm not actually a fan of). That they should put more emphasis on their facial expressions, reactions and making them tell the scene.

Oddly enough in OotP there were quite a lot of moments between Ron and Hermione where they look at each other in a way that goes a bit beyond friendship but they really are blink and you'll miss it kind of moments.

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I've always supported the canon relationships in the HP series. Ron and Hermione was so obvious. Harry and Ginny came as a suprise, but a nice surprise.

I knew going into the film franchise that not everything in the movies would be the same. And maybe it's because at the time the books had not all been written. No one knew how the story would end, so they took things in their own direction, which could have mislead certain fans who only follow the movies.

That said, I must admit that I didn't hate the dance. I liked it.

Maybe it's because I'm so invested in the trio and those 3 relationships. But I could never see the Harry+Hermione relationship as anything other than platonic. While I will never ship H/Hr romantically, I thought it was a beautiful scene in the book when Harry admitted to loving Hermione like a sister. He's always longed for a family of his own, and Ron and Hermione are the closest thing he's ever had to a brother and sister. So for him to say that and then to follow with Ron and him hugging felt very fulfilling.

I liked the dance. Harry was just trying to cheer Hermione up because she was missing Ron. That's a very human thing to do. If I saw my friend upset I'd try to make them feel better. It also showed that while they may have been having fun at that moment, eventually reality sunk back in, and we saw that Hermione still needed Ron. They both did.

The only thing I dislike is when the dance gets misinterpreted and made out to be some kind of 'will they, won't they?' moment. That's not what it was at all. I don't care what Mr Yates says. He may have wanted it to be portrayed like that, but the actors know their own characters better than he does. Even Kloves didn't write the scene with any sort of "tension" in the script.

Maybe it's because I'm so invested in the trio and those 3 relationships. But I could never see the Harry+Hermione relationship as anything other than platonic. While I will never ship H/Hr romantically, I thought it was a beautiful scene in the book when Harry admitted to loving Hermione like a sister. He's always longed for a family of his own, and Ron and Hermione are the closest thing he's ever had to a brother and sister. So for him to say that and then to follow with Ron and him hugging felt very fulfilling.


The thing is that i don't think i would really have had a problem with the dance if the line about Harry thinking of Hermione like a sister was also included. It was a combination of that line being dropped and the dance being included which has really annoyed me.

Oddly enough in OotP there were quite a lot of moments between Ron and Hermione where they look at each other in a way that goes a bit beyond friendship but they really are blink and you'll miss it kind of moments.

I don't mind the subtlety. It wouldn't be prudent to make Ron and Hermione bits too in your face. But these are just too slight. I'm not saying I want long lingering shots, but I just want more interaction.

But then again I didn't like a lot of the Hermione and Ron interactions in OotP. It's just too tame and lifeless for me. I didn't like their duel (Ron would never underestimate Hermione because she's a girl, in fact he's chuffed to bits in the book when he beats her because he knows how good she is), the bit where Ron nags her to do his homework or their reactions to Harry kissing Cho. I understand in the book they weren't as fierce with each other because they were supporting Harry, but in the movie they don't make that clear.

My favourite Ron and Hermione bit (actually I don't think Hermione says anything) is when Ron is stuffing his face in the dinner hall and I think Ginny tells him he's disgusting (should have been Hermione) and Ron says so incredibly defiantly, "What?! I'm hungry!". This is my case, the bit should be kept between Ron and Hermione, but Ginny is there for no reason and it is shot in one take over Hermione's shoulder so we don't get any reaction shots of her. So the scene doesn't feel between them.

And I also liked the deleted scene (I'm sure it's OotP and not GoF) where Ron tries to get Harry to go to the leaving feast but can't and he goes downstairs where Hermione is waiting, shakes his head and Hermione kinda deflates. It didn't feel as if Hermione and Ron were waiting for a cue, it felt as if they had talked and made this plan and been living lives off camera, doing their thing whilst not in scenes y'know? Whereas in other scenes it feels Hermione and Ron don't do anything until Harry shows up. Like they go into some sort of freeze.

My favourite Ron and Hermione bit (actually I don't think Hermione says anything) is when Ron is stuffing his face in the dinner hall and I think Ginny tells him he's disgusting (should have been Hermione) and Ron says so incredibly defiantly, "What?! I'm hungry!".

Actually, I believe it's Hermione who says "do you ever stop eating?" in that scene, while it's Ginny who doesn't say anything.

Yeah, I'm almost positive that it's Hermione who has the line.

I don't mind the subtlety. It wouldn't be prudent to make Ron and Hermione bits too in your face. But these are just too slight. I'm not saying I want long lingering shots, but I just want more interaction.

But then again I didn't like a lot of the Hermione and Ron interactions in OotP. It's just too tame and lifeless for me. I didn't like their duel (Ron would never underestimate Hermione because she's a girl, in fact he's chuffed to bits in the book when he beats her because he knows how good she is), the bit where Ron nags her to do his homework or their reactions to Harry kissing Cho. I understand in the book they weren't as fierce with each other because they were supporting Harry, but in the movie they don't make that clear.


I agree with everything you wrote. Unfortunately the scene where Ron is beaten by Hermione was played for laughs as they (the makers of OotP) clearly thought it would be funny to have Hermione kick Ron's arse. Ron being used as comic foil is certainly not something that is new with the movies.

As for Ron/Hermione moments well Kloves is a huge Hermione fan and doesn't seem to like Ron that much so it doesn't surprise me that the amount of moments they get together is limited. If asked Kloves would probably say that the movies are about Harry and he is merely reflecting that but i think the truth of the matter is Kloves doesn't like the Ron/Hermione pairing.

I do think if given the opportunity Rupert and Emma could nail the romantic tension between Ron and Hermione.

I've never read the books, but Ron and Hermione definitely are much better than Harry and Hermione. I agree with the whole it was just a what if moment. Did seem a bit silly that there wasnt as much intimacy depicted between Ron and Hermione though...

who else really fancies rupert grint!? just me? cool x


ps. too much tent action for meeeeeeeeeeeeeee :eeep:

The skipping stone scene looked more like BTS. And that scene would have been much more jarring in the film than the dance could've ever been. You couldn't just have Ron seemingly enjoying himself after being sulky in the exodus montage and right before the fight where he is just angry all over the place.

The dancing scene isn't jarring because they start out sad, try and get a bit happy, but then they end up being sad again at the end of it. Context. The Ron/Hermione skipping stones scene did not have that and would've made little to no sense. I am glad it was cut.

The skipping stone scene looked more like BTS. And that scene would have been much more jarring in the film than the dance could've ever been. You couldn't just have Ron seemingly enjoying himself after being sulky in the exodus montage and right before the fight where he is just angry all over the place.

The scene however would have worked great after the trio get to Shell Cottage and begin planning their bank robbery. I could easily see after a long day of planning Ron and Hermione wandering off to the water and Ron teaching Hermione how to throw stones. It would be the perfect time as well because at that point Hermione had completely forgiven Ron for leaving and Ron had found a new level of maturity and he also felt a bit more confident about his potential/developing relationship with Hermione.

I agree with everything you wrote. Unfortunately the scene where Ron is beaten by Hermione was played for laughs as they (the makers of OotP) clearly thought it would be funny to have Hermione kick Ron's arse. Ron being used as comic foil is certainly not something that is new with the movies.

As for Ron/Hermione moments well Kloves is a huge Hermione fan and doesn't seem to like Ron that much so it doesn't surprise me that the amount of moments they get together is limited. If asked Kloves would probably say that the movies are about Harry and he is merely reflecting that but i think the truth of the matter is Kloves doesn't like the Ron/Hermione pairing.

I do think if given the opportunity Rupert and Emma could nail the romantic tension between Ron and Hermione.

I don't mind it that Hermione kicks Ron arse. That's what would have happened. But they just got the dynamics wrong. Ron is the sort of person who would have joked that he would take it easy on Hermione because she's a girl, not sincerely mean it. They could have made their verbal sparring funny without making an incredibly easy joke such as boy underestimates girl, boy gets arse kicked by girl, boy pretends he let girl win. Ha ha ha.

Kloves doesn't seem to get Ron. He doesn't seem to see the value of him as a character. He can't seem to think of funny things for him to say or do and most strikingly he can't think of ways to make Ron and emotionally supportive character. All of Harry's emotional scenes with one of the trio involve Hermione most prominently.

I think Rupert and Emma can nail the sexual tension, that stone skipping scene proved it even though they improvised the most un-Ron and un-Hermione way to say their dialogue.

Actually, I believe it's Hermione who says "don't you ever stop eating?" in that scene, while it's Ginny who doesn't say anything.

Yeah, I'm almost positive that it's Hermione who has the line.

I did think it was Hermione and then I did a playback in my head and heard Ginny's voice. But yes, it is Hermione. Apologies.

I don't mind it that Hermione kicks Ron arse. That's what would have happened. But they just got the dynamics wrong. Ron is the sort of person who would have joked that he would take it easy on Hermione because she's a girl, not sincerely mean it. They could have made their verbal sparring funny without making an incredibly easy joke such as boy underestimates girl, boy gets arse kicked by girl, boy pretends he let girl win. Ha ha ha.


Agreed. From memory in the book Ron was thrilled that he managed to beat Hermione at all. I think they squared up around 3 times and Hermione won twice but Ron was still over the moon that he one once. He certainly didn't seem upset that Hermione beat him more than he beat her and i never got the impression Ron ever thought Hermione needed protecting because Ron has always been well aware of how talented Hermione is. I (like you) didn't like how in the movie Ron seemed to believe he needed to go easy on Hermione because Ron in the books is not like that at all.



Kloves doesn't seem to get Ron. He doesn't seem to see the value of him as a character. He can't seem to think of funny things for him to say or do and most strikingly he can't think of ways to make Ron and emotionally supportive character. All of Harry's emotional scenes with one of the trio involve Hermione most prominently.


Kloves doesn't get Ron at all. Kloves has admitted that Hermione is his favorite character and he does seem to enjoy giving her a larger role in the movies than she has had in the books giving Hermione lines from other characters, removing her negative personality traits and giving her new scenes with Harry that were not in the books.

I read the original script written by Kloves for DH1 and i was amazed at how often Kloves refers to Hermione as "beautiful" in the script. It was boarding on being completely absurd and it is obvious he has a huge crush on Hermione.



I think Rupert and Emma can nail the sexual tension, that stone skipping scene proved it even though they improvised the most un-Ron and un-Hermione way to say their dialogue.


Rupert and Emma could certainly portray sexual tension if they were given the scenes to do so. I don't mind the way Ron and Hermione acted in that scene even though it seemed a bit more Rupert/Emma than Ron/Hermione because we have no real basis for telling how Ron and Hermione act when Harry isn't around. For all we know they do act differently around each other when they are alone compared to how they act when Harry is with them.

It is a real shame that the Ron/Hermione relationship is not elaborated on in the movies. It may not have seemed like an important plot point to many fans, but I saw it as important. The entire series is based on the strength of love, and this was just one of the ways JK decided to show it's power.

Rupert and Emma do an excellent job with what they are given, especially the momentary glances (I love those pictures you posted from OoTP, GingerCat :D) and other small actions that show the developing romance. I really liked the stone skipping scene, it was very natural, even if the dialogue was not typical Ron and Hermione. It would have been great to have a scene like that every now and again just to show their feelings for one another :)

But my one issue is, that Rupert and Emma never weave in their characters affection and comfort in the scenes that arent focussed on them, or in scenes where they haven't been asked to project a certain emotion. What I mean to say is, that if you are playing two characters for over a decade, and you know them really well, then in your performance as those characters you go beyond the script and embody them in every scene. I feel there should a continuous comfort that should flow between Ron and Hermione which I don't see, unless they are actively acting towards it, in underplayed scenes, but scripted scenes nonetheless.
Part of this may be because of the ages Rupert & Emma acted at were preteen & early teen years for the first 3 HP films. There's just not that emotional range or repertoire as young children or early teen years, the inexperience of youth, and maybe their off-camera relations had no "chemistry" of passion or deep emotional connection or that indefinable feel of natural compatibility?

Imo, Emma has done an excellent job in her passionate moments to convey to Ron her true feelings as Hermione starting in GoF. There is an enormous amount of love-interest generated by Emma. Ron has his jealous moments in GoF too. So, from GoF forward they are given the scenes to verify their relationship is much more than a friendship. There's just not that open display of touch and physical affection that most teens will experience when dating someone. (This isn't Twilight. :D ) But in HBP there is no doubt this is the beginning of a love-affair thanks again to Emma's acting. Her scene taking Ron's hand & the look she gave him having won Ron over the other girlfriend's attentions is priceless. What more needs to be said or shown? It seems waayyy deeper than just snogging or any other acted relationship in HP movies. ;)

But you make a very good point here, imo... What I mean to say is, that if you are playing two characters for over a decade, and you know them really well, then in your performance as those characters you go beyond the script and embody them in every scene. I feel there should a continuous comfort that should flow between Ron and Hermione which I don't see, unless they are actively acting towards it, in underplayed scenes, but scripted scenes nonetheless.So, I ask the following: maybe Emma's & Rupert's off-camera relations had no "chemistry" of passion or deep emotional connection or that indefinable feel of natural compatibility? None of that came natural to them, because E&R were not close that way on-set and off-camera as close friends?

Anyone know, comparing actor to character, how old Emma & Rupert vs R&H were in GoF, OotP, HBP, and DH1?

I disagree with that as i think Rupert and Emma can show on screen sexual tension. The stone throwing scene had a bit of it and i suspect if they were given the right material they could nail it.

I disagree with that as i think Rupert and Emma can show on screen sexual tension. The stone throwing scene had a bit of it and i suspect if they were given the right material they could nail it.
I'm not certain what you are referring to in my post? I'm speaking of off-camera relations. You're referring to an on-camera scene that no one knows for certain if it was scripted & cut or just improvised as a test shoot for 'the daily' takes or getting ideas for something or ? Nevertheless, it is still an on-camera shot & not off-camera relations.

Instead, I'm referring to this idea which is not (being referred to as) "sexual tension"...
But my one issue is, that Rupert and Emma never weave in their characters affection and comfort in the scenes that aren't focused on them, or in scenes where they haven't been asked to project a certain emotion. What I mean to say is, that if you are playing two characters for over a decade, and you know them really well, then in your performance as those characters you go beyond the script and embody them in every scene. I feel there should a continuous comfort that should flow between Ron and Hermione which I don't see, unless they are actively acting towards it, in underplayed scenes, but scripted scenes nonetheless.

I feel a bit silly to step in every other day, but since it might not be obvious: we're neither the author, the director, the actors nor any other houseelf I might yet have forgotten.

This is a thread about the romantic outcome of the films. So if you assume that eg Ron and Emma's feelings don't come across rightly in the film because you guess that they don't have a good (or a to good) chemisty in real life, please mark your assumption as such.

Naturally it would help to leave those out completely since we barely can know how these people deal with each other the moment they're not in front of a camera. All in all: it's OK to use the one or other speculation, but please don't forget about the actual thread topic.

Well, I'll keep in mind your request gertiekeddle (what an amusingly nice ring this name has :D), and hopefully this comment will not algae its way out of the defined box:). Though it is but natural to discuss the outcome of an intended romantic sequence in the movie based on our perception of whether the intent and purpose of the scene as such is justified by the actors or not. I agree it is not our prerogative to pass judgement on their off screen equation, but to speculate their understanding of the character is ok, no?

Either way, I think Rupert and Emma do full justice to the material they get. You don't have to be in love off screen to have chemistry on screen; I think their looks, scenes, dialogues etc that are scripted are brilliant mostly. For instance, in DH, the piano scene was beautiful. That could have very easily been straight out of the book; it is endearing and so true to Ron and Hermiones interaction. There is a sense of close companionship, and you can see a side of their relationship that is hinted at in the books; that of dependence and the soft tone of love that binds such friendships that are always edging towards something more :). I agree with the previous poster who said that theirs is an equation where both (by DH) understand that they love each other; there is acceptance of the bond with no real need for a declaration.
But that said, I wasn't quite a fan of Rupert's acting in the Malfoy Manor scene. That scene lacked the emotional depth and resonance that it required. It wasn't meant to be subtle, or soft; it had to be a loud and passionate depiction of emotion. There I felt, for instance, that even if the script claimed that Ron was just standing around seeming helpless, Rupert should have gone beyond the script maybe and through his acting gone on to depict the pain that Ron was feeling. They have after all read the books, and are aware of how Ron's emotions in this scene are- he is petrified of losing her and imagining her in pain, especially since he almost lost her when he left harry and hermione previously (he didn't know after all if he would find his way back to them after he left). And its not like these actors dont have inputs on other scenes (Emma for instance suggested that Bellatrix carves Mudblood on her arms in the torture scene).

Also, I know I said that there needs to be a continuous believable flow of energy between Ron and Hermione in the movies, the kind that actors who have done theater often manage to understand (for instance, think Daphne/Niles in Frasier), and it is difficult to portray that unless you totally embody your character. Sort of like method acting, which is I suppose too much to ask for. Rupert and Emma in their own way, do justice to the scenes as much as two teenagers can I suppose, expecting more is a bit too far fetched. Its literally like expecting our imagination as we read the books to be displayed in front of us like a movie. After all words have the obvious subtlety that the visual medium doesn't. :)

It is a real shame that the Ron/Hermione relationship is not elaborated on in the movies. It may not have seemed like an important plot point to many fans, but I saw it as important. The entire series is based on the strength of love, and this was just one of the ways JK decided to show it's power.

Rupert and Emma do an excellent job with what they are given, especially the momentary glances (I love those pictures you posted from OoTP, GingerCat :D) and other small actions that show the developing romance. I really liked the stone skipping scene, it was very natural, even if the dialogue was not typical Ron and Hermione. It would have been great to have a scene like that every now and again just to show their feelings for one another :)

I agree! All this skipping stone stuff sounds delightful! Ron and Hermione are the true love in the film! The GInny and Harry stuff is definitely forced, I don't believe it. More concentration on the Ron and Hermione love in the next film please. And loooooooads more action!

:huggles: x

But my one issue is, that Rupert and Emma never weave in their characters affection and comfort in the scenes that aren't focused on them, or in scenes where they haven't been asked to project a certain emotion. What I mean to say is, that if you are playing two characters for over a decade, and you know them really well, then in your performance as those characters you go beyond the script and embody them in every scene. I feel there should a continuous comfort that should flow between Ron and Hermione which I don't see, unless they are actively acting towards it, in underplayed scenes, but scripted scenes nonetheless.
Also, I know I said that there needs to be a continuous believable flow of energy between Ron and Hermione in the movies, the kind that actors who have done theater often manage to understand (for instance, think Daphne/Niles in Frasier), and it is difficult to portray that unless you totally embody your character. Sort of like method acting, which is I suppose too much to ask for. Rupert and Emma in their own way, do justice to the scenes as much as two teenagers can I suppose, expecting more is a bit too far fetched. Its literally like expecting our imagination as we read the books to be displayed in front of us like a movie. After all words have the obvious subtlety that the visual medium doesn't. :)
Thanks for addressing some of the questions I'm interested in. :)

After thinking about Emma's & Rupert's portrayal of R&H's feelings for each other, which really began to be displayed from GoF onward, I think any 'background chemistry' that would have been observed as a continuous connection-feel from scene to scene between R&H was up to the Director to observe in his Daily Shoots & then correct & guide for that change.

What I was suggesting before in the form of a question was to consider how much natural chemistry Emma & Rupert shared off-camera together. And, I wanted to add to that, they were cast as young children. It was impossible to screen or select for that indefinable 'chemistry thing' that love has & then predict accurately how that would play-out in fulfilling their love-interest roles 3+ years later.

Emma is by far the better actor, when it comes to producing the emotional range & sensitivities of their love relationship, imo. She proved herself admirably in HBP, so it was really up to the director to key in on her natural talent to do more if he wanted to. I think Rupert would need more coaching with the subtilties to get the results between the two you were hoping for.

IF you & I can spot what you're suggesting could have been an improvement, then there is no doubt in my mind the Director caught this too. It would easily be seen by that trained eye in the Daily Shoot Reviews. It was up to proper direction & coaching at that point to create this ambiance of love or connection or chemistry or look-feel, and then it would have gotten the symmetry between the scenes you are referring to.

I am still curious how their natural chemistry developed in communication & friendship between Emma & Rupert over those years. :eyebrows: (This has nothing to do with any kind of love interest. ;) )

I loved Ron's jealousy & put-down flare-ups in GoF, so I think Rupert can do 'spot on' acting too. Emma is stealing the show in DH1, so it will be interesting to watch their final performance in DH2. I hope it all comes together for them equally well in this wonderful love affair of R&H. :tu:

Thanks for addressing some of the questions I'm interested in. :)

After thinking about Emma's & Rupert's portrayal of R&H's feelings for each other, which really began to be displayed from GoF onward, I think any 'background chemistry' that would have been observed as a continuous connection-feel from scene to scene between R&H was up to the Director to observe in his Daily Shoots & then correct & guide for that change.

What I was suggesting before in the form of a question was to consider how much natural chemistry Emma & Rupert shared off-camera together. And, I wanted to add to that, they were cast as young children. It was impossible to screen or select for that indefinable 'chemistry thing' that love has & then predict accurately how that would play-out in fulfilling their love-interest roles 3+ years later.

Emma is by far the better actor, when it comes to producing the emotional range & sensitivities of their love relationship, imo. She proved herself admirably in HBP, so it was really up to the director to key in on her natural talent to do more if he wanted to. I think Rupert would need more coaching with the subtilties to get the results between the two you were hoping for.

IF you & I can spot what you're suggesting could have been an improvement, then there is no doubt in my mind the Director caught this too. It would easily be seen by that trained eye in the Daily Shoot Reviews. It was up to proper direction & coaching at that point to create this ambiance of love or connection or chemistry or look-feel, and then it would have gotten the symmetry between the scenes you are referring to.

I am still curious how their natural chemistry developed in communication & friendship between Emma & Rupert over those years. :eyebrows: (This has nothing to do with any kind of love interest. ;) )

I loved Ron's jealousy & put-down flare-ups in GoF, so I think Rupert can do 'spot on' acting too. Emma is stealing the show in DH1, so it will be interesting to watch their final performance in DH2. I hope it all comes together for them equally well in this wonderful love affair of R&H. :tu:

I totally agree with most of what you have said. There is an obvious involvement of the director in the entire picture, especially in the earlier movies, where Rupert and Emma were still coming into their own as professional actors. He needs to take an active step in guiding their portrayal of the characters towards a basic motive, which I feel Yates did manage to do to a certain extent in OotP. You are right in saying that Emma has actually become one of the best of the trio over the years, in terms of acting. I thought she was very very impressive in DH1, and yes, she is more comfortable doing the subtle emotions than perhaps Rupert or Dan. Though, Rupert does nail the lovesick look quite well. In fact even his jealous Ron is quite believable. Where he lacks, is his response to Emma in scenes where the focus is more on Hermione's emotions. For instance, as I have previously mentioned, the Malfoy Manor scene.
I think to have the kind of continuous affection that we are talking of, the romance needs to be one of the most central themes of the movie. Otherwise the effort is just not worth it. Given that Harry Potter has SO much going on, I think the director just assumes (and maybe rightly so), that the direct focus they give occasionally on the romantic sub plot is enough and there is no need to give a shout out to the people who carefully look out for such moments behind the scenes (as in not off screen, but behind the focal point on the screen).
Coming to the comfort that Rupert and Emma have with eachother thats reflective of their equation as Ron and Hermione. Well obviously, this will be purely speculative, since none of us really know how chemistry can work between two people, and how that comes across as acting. I have heard of people who don't get along at all to depict wonderful chemistry onscreen and on the other hand people who often get along brilliantly in real life are unable to translate the chemistry on screen. So I don't think there is any set formula to what works and what doesn't.
I could talk about my own speculation of how I feel their relationship off screen translates to their on screen chemistry, but that I believe is outside the ambit of this thread, and could perhaps be discussed in a separate one :).

You are right in saying that Emma has actually become one of the best of the trio over the years, in terms of acting. I thought she was very very impressive in DH1, and yes, she is more comfortable doing the subtle emotions than perhaps Rupert or Dan. Though, Rupert does nail the lovesick look quite well. In fact even his jealous Ron is quite believable. Where he lacks, is his response to Emma in scenes where the focus is more on Hermione's emotions. For instance, as I have previously mentioned, the Malfoy Manor scene.


I think Rupert is the best actor of the trio but Emma isn't to far behind anymore. As for the Malfoy Manor scene that wasn't a case of Rupert stuffing up the material he was given rather Rupert wasn't given the material he should have been given. If Kloves wrote it so Ron reacted like he did in the book i have no doubt Rupert would have done a very good job. Unfortunately he wasn't and even the best actor in the world can't shine if the script won't let him.

I think Rupert is the best actor of the trio but Emma isn't to far behind anymore. As for the Malfoy Manor scene that wasn't a case of Rupert stuffing up the material he was given rather Rupert wasn't given the material he should have been given. If Kloves wrote it so Ron reacted like he did in the book i have no doubt Rupert would have done a very good job. Unfortunately he wasn't and even the best actor in the world can't shine if the script won't let him.

And the director held Rupert at arm's length throughout the scene. If they had shot tighter on Rupert so it was a little more about him and we could see his facial reactions, it might have been more effective even if Rupert wasn't screaming. The director just kept Ron too distant for us to feed off his energy? in a way. In those scenes in the basement he is always sharing a shot with someone else, so its hard for Rupert to connect with Emma.

How the scene starts is good.

It cuts from Bellatrix starting to carve on top of Hermione...

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=160&pid=162336#top_display_media

... to Ron in focus so we can see his reactions, whilst the others are out of focus...

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=160&pid=162337#top_display_media

Which is the closest we get. He is still sharing the frame with characters, who are talking actually taking your attention off him. Because he's not panicking enough to keep it. I just think it needed to be more full on in Rupert's face.

That scene was so heart breaking in the book, it is a shame they did not develop it in the movies. Emma did an excellent job of the torture, I really believe Rupert could have pulled off a gut-wrenching performance, he plays the love-sick character so well! But I guess there's no use in thinking of all these "what if's", what's done is done :(

And the director held Rupert at arm's length throughout the scene. If they had shot tighter on Rupert so it was a little more about him and we could see his facial reactions, it might have been more effective even if Rupert wasn't screaming. The director just kept Ron too distant for us to feed off his energy? in a way. In those scenes in the basement he is always sharing a shot with someone else, so its hard for Rupert to connect with Emma.

How the scene starts is good.

It cuts from Bellatrix starting to carve on top of Hermione...

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=160&pid=162336#top_display_media

... to Ron in focus so we can see his reactions, whilst the others are out of focus...

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=160&pid=162337#top_display_media

Which is the closest we get. He is still sharing the frame with characters, who are talking actually taking your attention off him. Because he's not panicking enough to keep it. I just think it needed to be more full on in Rupert's face.


Hmmm, I can hardly make out those pics. Sorry.
I think that directing some more of the closer shots of the two, even just standing side by side or wherever, with subtle acting could have conveyed so much more.

I could talk about my own speculation of how I feel their relationship off screen translates to their on screen chemistry, but that I believe is outside the ambit of this thread, and could perhaps be discussed in a separate one :).
Emma Watson as Hermione Granger v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=94553)

and/or

Rupert Grint as Ron Weasley V2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=98370)

Just in case you are so motivated. :eyebrows:

Though, Rupert does nail the lovesick look quite well. In fact even his jealous Ron is quite believable.Spot on. :)
I think to have the kind of continuous affection that we are talking of, the romance needs to be one of the most central themes of the movie. Otherwise the effort is just not worth it. Given that Harry Potter has SO much going on, I think the director just assumes (and maybe rightly so), that the direct focus they give occasionally on the romantic sub plot is enough . . .
I think that -is- how it's Directed to be, since we have the evidence for that too. ;)
Coming to the comfort that Rupert and Emma have with each other that's reflective of their equation as Ron and Hermione. Well obviously, this will be purely speculative, since none of us really know how chemistry can work between two people, and how that comes across as acting. I have heard of people who don't get along at all to depict wonderful chemistry onscreen and on the other hand people who often get along brilliantly in real life are unable to translate the chemistry on screen. So I don't think there is any set formula to what works and what doesn't.
And, add the lens effect too. Again, brilliant. :tu: (Chocoron, I want to see your post count go into the 100's or 1,000's. :elaugh: )

Then there's an all time Classic with Elizabeth Taylor (RIP passed recently) & Richard Burton "The Taming of the Shrew", Wow, talk about on-screen & off-screen chemistry!!! Of course, way amped-up considering the age differences & finished actors in their primes. :D That's not possible in DH1-2, different story, but I hope R&H-R&E both shine at their best.

The acting-camera Direction & the lens choice are the final snapshots we get, and it is what it is at 25fps. :)

If I had only watched the movies I would wonder how Harry manages to fall for Ginny since they never speak. In the books once Ginny got over her shyness she helped Harry, and brought him out of his bad moods. In the 6th book you could tell he was slowly falling for her, but in the movie he was flirting with the girl @ the train station one moment then watching Ginny the next. DH part 1 made Harry's feelings for Ginny be a kinda out of sight out of mind thing. Ron/Hermione had their moments in DH part 1, but Ron is in the background too much while Harry and Hermione talk. I wish they added the part where Harry tells Ron he loves Hermione like a sister, and that's it has always been that way. That one line from the book would have cleared up a lot concerning the Harry/Hermione relationship.

If I had only watched the movies I would wonder how Harry manages to fall for Ginny since they never speak. In the books once Ginny got over her shyness she helped Harry, and brought him out of his bad moods. In the 6th book you could tell he was slowly falling for her, but in the movie he was flirting with the girl @ the train station one moment then watching Ginny the next. DH part 1 made Harry's feelings for Ginny be a kinda out of sight out of mind thing. Ron/Hermione had their moments in DH part 1, but Ron is in the background too much while Harry and Hermione talk. I wish they added the part where Harry tells Ron he loves Hermione like a sister, and that's it has always been that way. That one line from the book would have cleared up a lot concerning the Harry/Hermione relationship.

It would have also helped if they had Harry looking at Ginny's name on the Marauder's Map showing that he missed her. If we just went by the movies then it would look like Harry didn't have any real feelings for Ginny at all.

It would have also helped if they had Harry looking at Ginny's name on the Marauder's Map showing that he missed her.That's a creative idea. :)
If we just went by the movies then it would look like Harry didn't have any real feelings for Ginny at all.
Almost, but not quite, really. HPB has the Christmas cookie scenes at the Burrow with the obvious uncomfortable presence of Mr. Weasley. He catches on & leaves the room. Then Ginny starts to hand feed Harry some luscious cookies. Kind of sexy, but, then, darn it, Ron comes in & sits right inbetween them munching cookies like a pig. :elaugh: It's obvious they both have a 'love connection' starting. It's just that there's that typical family interruption thing going on, and that does happen as teens, quite typical, just a few sneaky seconds to get that kiss & embrace in, but for... :blush:

Then in DH1 there is the racy scene (for HP), when Ginny has Harry zip-up her dress with her back exposed. It's made more edgy with passion because of the Wizard wars looming. They're both starting to kiss very passionately up close, but for Bro's interruption, as he comes in with a toothbrush in his ear. Isn't 'that' cute & infuriating. :lol:

Yeah, there is not much 'air time', but 'the heat' or passion is at least igniting between H&G. We can see & feel it, briefly. ;) The Director is toying with the audience doing these short scenes, as if to withhold or tease us by not giving us more. Kind of has that teen flavor to it, a bit of a tease, like Dad or Bro or something always interrupting, darn it, coming between us. :D

That's a creative idea. :)

Almost, but not quite, really. HPB has the Christmas cookie scenes at the Burrow with the obvious uncomfortable presence of Mr. Weasley. He catches on & leaves the room. Then Ginny starts to hand feed Harry some luscious cookies. Kind of sexy, but, then, darn it, Ron comes in & sits right inbetween them munching cookies like a pig. :elaugh: It's obvious they both have a 'love connection' starting. It's just that there's that typical family interruption thing going on, and that does happen as teens, quite typical, just a few sneaky seconds to get that kiss & embrace in, but for... :blush:

Then in DH1 there is the racy scene (for HP), when Ginny has Harry zip-up her dress with her back exposed. It's made more edgy with passion because of the Wizard wars looming. They're both starting to kiss very passionately up close, but for Bro's interruption, as he comes in with a toothbrush in his ear. Isn't 'that' cute & infuriating. :lol:

Yeah, there is not much 'air time', but 'the heat' or passion is at least igniting between H&G. We can see & feel it, briefly. ;) The Director is toying with the audience doing these short scenes, as if to withhold or tease us by not giving us more. Kind of has that teen flavor to it, a bit of a tease, like Dad or Bro or something always interrupting, darn it, coming between us. :D

You didn't feel that was intentional on film Ron's part?

You didn't feel that was intentional on film Ron's part?
Given the way those scenes were being 'directed' in that cute context of love's interruptions, excluding DH-book, Ron seemed like the typical clueless teen-buddy coming in to munch with Harry. I don't think he would really care about what Ginny was feeling or doing towards Harry. He's just coming in to hang-out, but the Director is toying with the audience in the way I suggest too.

Now, teen girls like Ginny that have crushes on Harry (or someone) might see this scene from a different POV. Ginny might think Ron is interrupting like a dumb brother would. Maybe. Or, maybe on purpose too.

Because Ron & Harry are best friends, though, I don't think Ron would willfully hassle Harry that way. ;)

Given the way those scenes were being 'directed' in that cute context of love's interruptions, excluding DH-book, Ron seemed like the typical clueless teen-buddy coming in to munch with Harry. I don't think he would really care about what Ginny was feeling or doing towards Harry. He's just coming in to hang-out, but the Director is toying with the audience in the way I suggest too.

Now, teen girls like Ginny that have crushes on Harry (or someone) might see this scene from a different POV. Ginny might think Ron is interrupting like a dumb brother would. Maybe. Or, maybe on purpose too.

Because Ron & Harry are best friends, though, I don't think Ron would willfully hassle Harry that way. ;)

I still laugh at that scene in the OotP book where Harry is trying to talk to Cho and Ron manages to completely offend Cho and ruin Harry's chance to talk to her and what was so amusing was Ron had no clue he had done it.

I still laugh at that scene in the OotP book where Harry is trying to talk to Cho and Ron manages to completely offend Cho and ruin Harry's chance to talk to her and what was so amusing was Ron had no clue he had done it.

I just love that scene! I was saying "Good on you Ron, annoy that Chang!"
It did seem a little as if Ron was acting like a jealous girl.

I just love that scene! I was saying "Good on you Ron, annoy that stupid Chang!"
It did seem a little as if Ron was acting like a jealous girl.

How was Ron acting like Jealous girl? He never liked Cho! He was just clueless about what he said to her and ruined Harry chance to talk to her without noticing...:)

How was Ron acting like Jealous girl? He never liked Cho! He was just clueless about what he said to her and ruined Harry chance to talk to her without noticing...:)

I meant by the way he interrupted the talk between [staff edit, Cho] and Harry. Plus he insulted her Quiddich team.
If this had been done by a female character it would be seen as jealousy, that said female character didn't like [staff edit] Chang talking to Harry and was deliberately trying to spoil the moment.
Anyway, that is how it appeared to me on reading it. I felt Ron's actions were like those a jealous girl would have taken. I know he didn't like Chang. I was cheering at the fact he didn't and was so glad he showed it. I was mad at Hermione for dragging him away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrkkKOqP9so

Is it just editing by this brilliant woman (Hanna), or were Rupert and Emma actually this brilliant with their expressions!? :O :O

I'm not one to troll YouTube for fanmade videos, but this gal does have quite a knack for stringing together some of the most poignant and emotional scenes between Ron and Hermione. She made another Ron/Hermione video back in the fall with DH2 scenes with many wonderful callbacks to the previous films.

Folks who are upset at how Ron and Hermione are portrayed in the films ought to take a look and watch these. As the previous poster said, it does make you appreciate the acting of Rupes and Emma in the few scenes they are given to further the romantic plotline. What I like most of all is the editing of Malfoy Manor - this gal's editing in both her videos creates so much more tension and emotion than the actual films.

:grumble: :grumble: The filming of Malfoy Manor is still probably my number one gripe when it comes to DH1...:grumble: :grumble:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrkkKOqP9so

Is it just editing by this brilliant woman (Hanna), or were Rupert and Emma actually this brilliant with their expressions!? :O :O

That was really very good--a nice collection of their moments.

I'm not one to troll YouTube for fanmade videos, but this gal does have quite a knack for stringing together some of the most poignant and emotional scenes between Ron and Hermione. She made another Ron/Hermione video back in the fall with DH2 scenes with many wonderful callbacks to the previous films.

Folks who are upset at how Ron and Hermione are portrayed in the films ought to take a look and watch these. As the previous poster said, it does make you appreciate the acting of Rupes and Emma in the few scenes they are given to further the romantic plotline. What I like most of all is the editing of Malfoy Manor - this gal's editing in both her videos creates so much more tension and emotion than the actual films.

:grumble: :grumble: The filming of Malfoy Manor is still probably my number one gripe when it comes to DH1...:grumble: :grumble:

and that is a very bad thing as there is no way a girl sitting at home on her computer should be able to make the Malfoy Manor scene more tense. It should have been made correctly by the film makers who are on very large money.

Ron's behavior in the Malfoy Manor was the reason Hermione forgave him as he not only offered himself to Bellatrix in place of Hermione but he also screamed her name the entire time unable to control the pain he was feeling. None of that happened in the movie and as a result it won't really make sense why Hermione forgives Ron in DHP2.

That was really very good--a nice collection of their moments.

Aww. I loved this. Now imagine the kiss added in after DH 2 comes out!

Ron's behavior in the Malfoy Manor was the reason Hermione forgave him as he not only offered himself to Bellatrix in place of Hermione but he also screamed her name the entire time unable to control the pain he was feeling. None of that happened in the movie and as a result it won't really make sense why Hermione forgives Ron in DHP2.

You´re free to make your own interpretation, but I cannot agree with your reasoning on Hermione forgiving Ron. People don´t neccessarily need a reason to forgive someone, nor do I think what happened at Malfoy Manor was the reason Hermione forgave him. Often all you need to forgive is time, time to get over your own anger or disappointment. Hermione seems to me like a person who takes a long time to get over it when she is seriously angry. Or you need a situation/crisis which makes you re-focus your attention and forget your anger, like the fact that they are caught by the snatchers.

You´re free to make your own interpretation, but I cannot agree with your reasoning on Hermione forgiving Ron. People don´t neccessarily need a reason to forgive someone, nor do I think what happened at Malfoy Manor was the reason Hermione forgave him. Often all you need to forgive is time, time to get over your own anger or disappointment. Hermione seems to me like a person who takes a long time to get over it when she is seriously angry. Or you need a situation/crisis which makes you re-focus your attention and forget your anger, like the fact that they are caught by the snatchers.

I agree that some people don't need a huge gesture to happen before the accept to forgive someone.

How could Hermione not forgive Ron? He was back, he was sorry. He saved Harry's life and destroyed a Horcrux How could she hate him forever? She can't help but forgive him because... he's Ron, y'know?

It's a very natural process.

But I have noticed that Hermione started to take it easy on him after he revealed he was too ashamed to go back to the Burrow.

She doesn't react when Ron snorts at her suggestion that the very ordinary house belongs to the eccentric Lovegood's and she doesn't bite like she normally does when Ron corrects her about their home looking like a chess piece rook.

Also having to put on a united front against Harry when he became obsessed over the Hallows meant it was just like old times, like when they worked together to persuade him to teach DADA and in HBP when they didn't believe Malfoy was a Death Eater and Harry did.

Like the above poster said it happened over time.

In the film they put the emphasis on Ron's speech to show how sorry Ron was and how Hermione is slowly won over. There's still some festering resentment, but it's not as fierce as it is in the book and it's resolved quite naturally (again like in the book) without taking up too much screen time. I think they got it across fine.

I agree that some people don't need a huge gesture to happen before the accept to forgive someone.

How could Hermione not forgive Ron? He was back, he was sorry. He saved Harry's life and destroyed a Horcrux How could she hate him forever? She can't help but forgive him because... he's Ron, y'know?

It's a very natural process.

But I have noticed that Hermione started to take it easy on him after he revealed he was too ashamed to go back to the Burrow.

She doesn't react when Ron snorts at her suggestion that the very ordinary house belongs to the eccentric Lovegood's and she doesn't bite like she normally does when Ron corrects her about their home looking like a chess piece rook.

Also having to put on a united front against Harry when he became obsessed over the Hallows meant it was just like old times, like when they worked together to persuade him to teach DADA and in HBP when they didn't believe Malfoy was a Death Eater and Harry did.

Like the above poster said it happened over time.

In the film they put the emphasis on Ron's speech to show how sorry Ron was and how Hermione is slowly won over. There's still some festering resentment, but it's not as fierce as it is in the book and it's resolved quite naturally (again like in the book) without taking up too much screen time. I think they got it across fine.

I totally agree with you. No one can stay mad at Ron forever :love:

I agree completely with the above posters.
Hermione did not forgive Ron, because he gave her a reason to at the Malfoy Manor. She is someone who is just as passionate as he is, and thus reacts instantaneously, especially when it comes to Ron himself. I think her anger was more a punishment for him, than an actual feeling of resentment. She knew that he was expecting her to be ok with him, and so holding back on that warmth as soon as he came back was her way of making him go through hell (well, only for a while. She for one cannot see Ron in pain for long after all). In fact, you can tell that her anger is short lived on the night he returns itself, as she mutters the "I havent ruled it out" line after Ron mutters about the birds. Although she was gradually softening to him, I think the change came when, like the above poster mentioned, he said that he hadn't gone back to the Burrow. Amidst that and the drama that unfolded at the Lovegoods she literally forgot to stay mad at him. Also, I think Hermione has to make a huge effort to not talk to Ron. So I think she just gave in eventually :).
So yes, by Malfoy Manor he was certainly forgiven and was being given large doses of subtle Hermione love I am sure :).

ALSO. With respect to the video I posted above. I completely agree with MsBinns. This girl has been able to add so much drama to the Malfoy Manor scene (agreed the music always adds to the dramatic effect), but just the way she focuses on both Ron and Hermione makes you realise the intensity or the potential of intense emotion that this scene could have held, if they had only shot it right. I loved Rupert and Emma's expressions, once Rupert and Harry are on the stairs waiting to go into the living room. Emma's look as she looks at them while lying down is just bloody brilliant acting. Even after that, the entire bit where they duel with Bellatrix, where Rupert drops his wand, whre Emma looks at the Chandelier, when she run to him and he holds her. My god their expressions! I never noticed in the movie, it was blink and gone!

I think her anger was more a punishment for him, than an actual feeling of resentment.At least in the movie versions of their relationship both R-Ron & E-Hermione express their growing love for each other through volatile flair-ups between the two of them.

Imo, Ron secretly loved it that Hermione banged him with the backpack (instead of punching him like she did Draco :lol:), she touched me, she cares with the angry play-hit, & then she asked Harry for her wand. (Ron loved it that Harry didn't give her the wand too.) :lol:

It was their way of showing each other how much she had missed him, and Ron knew it too. :tu:

She was right there in his face to let him know how much she loved him too.

While reading the book, I never once thought that Ron's reaction at Malfoy Manor was the reason Hermione forgave him. In fact, I thought she had pretty much forgiven him by that time.

Malfoy Manor in the movie is very disappointing though. it was such a crucial moment for Ron/Hermione. I don't know why they downplayed it so much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrkkKOqP9so

Is it just editing by this brilliant woman (Hanna), or were Rupert and Emma actually this brilliant with their expressions!? :O :O

That video is amazing.

At least in the movie versions of their relationship both R-Ron & E-Hermione express their growing love for each other through volatile flair-ups between the two of them.

Imo, Ron secretly loved it that Hermione banged him with the backpack (instead of punching him like she did Draco :lol:), she touched me, she cares with the angry play-hit, & then she asked Harry for her wand. (Ron loved it that Harry didn't give her the wand too.) :lol:

It was their way of showing each other how much she had missed him, and Ron knew it too. :tu:

She was right there in his face to let him know how much she loved him too.

I totally agree. Ron and Hermione have this equation where they reveal to eachother far more through heated displays of passion and anger than through subtle soft dialogue (except in DH, which was a brilliantly handled departure from tradition by Jo. She nailed this transformation with such ease, that you almost never felt like they crossed a line into something more, it was just like a gradual unspoken progression from a deep degree of friendship to an intense kind of love).

I totally agree. Ron and Hermione have this equation where they reveal to eachother far more through heated displays of passion and anger than through subtle soft dialogue (except in DH, which was a brilliantly handled departure from tradition by Jo. She nailed this transformation with such ease, that you almost never felt like they crossed a line into something more, it was just like a gradual unspoken progression from a deep degree of friendship to an intense kind of love).

You are so right! Ron and Hermione's relationship is very complex and interesting. It fascinates me. I was so thrilled to see the "almost touching hands" scene in the movie. As I read the book I was more curious to know what was happening there than to find out what Lord Voldemort was up to :). I can't wait for the kiss and the Chamber of Secrets scene (I heard on MuggleCast that it's in the next movie).

In the ongoing dissatisfaction over the Harry/Hermione Dance Scene, I wonder what the average age is of folks who just are having kittens over it (really, really hated it) and those who like it and find it poignant and sweet. I'm wondering if age colors how one looks at this scene. I also wonder if gender influences one's reaction to it?

Myself? I LOVED the scene. My age: 52. Gender: Female. How about you?

I loved the scene, as well. Age 22, female.

In the ongoing dissatisfaction over the Harry/Hermione Dance Scene, I wonder what the average age is of folks who just are having kittens over it (really, really hated it) and those who like it and find it poignant and sweet. I'm wondering if age colors how one looks at this scene. I also wonder if gender influences one's reaction to it?

Myself? I LOVED the scene. My age: 52. Gender: Female. How about you?

As for me, my age and gender are exactly the same as yours and I hated it with a passion!:no:

I didn't mind the scene, I understand what they were going for (note: if you have the blu ray, watch the maximum movie mode, they explain quite well why they did this scene and Emma's explanation was spot on--despite it not being canon, in a similar real life situation, it's entirely plausible that two people of the opposite sex who are friends very well could have gone there. I'd say a lot of people wonder about their friends of the opposite sex wonder whether or not they could be more than friends. And then adding in the desperation and loneliness of their situation...let's just say that the situation Kloves/Yates put them in was totally possible)

Anyway, female, late 30s. I liked the tension and the 'will they/won't they'. Ultimately I knew the outcome would be that Hermione ends up with Ron so I wasn't too worried about that moment in the movie. It did add some interest to an otherwise rather slow part of the film (I mean really, how many minutes of sad Hermione/angry or frustrated Harry can we watch?)

As for me, my age and gender are exactly the same as yours and I hated it with a passion!:no:

It's just my theory....I could be dead wrong.

In the ongoing dissatisfaction over the Harry/Hermione Dance Scene, I wonder what the average age is of folks who just are having kittens over it (really, really hated it) and those who like it and find it poignant and sweet. I'm wondering if age colors how one looks at this scene. I also wonder if gender influences one's reaction to it?

Myself? I LOVED the scene. My age: 52. Gender: Female. How about you?


I totally loved the scene. I was moved when I first saw it, completely unexpected and I loved it very much.

Really, there is so much chemistry between Harry and Hermione and I see none between Hermione and Ron. It's not that I don't like Ron though, it's just that, in the movie, I don't believe for a second in the love between them.

Age: 48, female.

I actually agree that in the films I just don't feel it. RG' s acting is spot on, but I can't feel the chemistry between them.

I actually agree that in the films I just don't feel it. RG' s acting is spot on, but I can't feel the chemistry between them.

That's because the movie makers, especially script writer Kloves, have neglected Ron's characterization and focused so much on Harry and Hermione.:grumble:

In the ongoing dissatisfaction over the Harry/Hermione Dance Scene, I wonder what the average age is of folks who just are having kittens over it (really, really hated it) and those who like it and find it poignant and sweet. I'm wondering if age colors how one looks at this scene. I also wonder if gender influences one's reaction to it?

Myself? I LOVED the scene. My age: 52. Gender: Female. How about you?

I'm 48 and, obviously, a woman. :lol:

The H/H dance scene didn't bother me. I don't think it's particularly brilliant, but I don't hate it either.

JKR confuses me. She gives a clear indication of a RHR ship in the books and then allows the movie script writers to have many HHR scenes. I dunno what to make of this, whether this is her way of making up for all those HHR fans who were mad at her or whether she simply realized the HHR fluff would be a good marketing aspect for the movie.

Personally, am a HHR shipper. Always have been ever since i started reading the series and soldiered on grimly after the setbacks starting from GOF. The movies offer a different perspective for me, and i dunno whether to hate or love it. Love for the way the scenes give moments to keep rewinding on, hate for the false hope they offer on a relationship that has no future.

JKR confuses me. She gives a clear indication of a RHR ship in the books and then allows the movie script writers to have many HHR scenes. I dunno what to make of this, whether this is her way of making up for all those HHR fans who were mad at her or whether she simply realized the HHR fluff would be a good marketing aspect for the movie.

It is a good marketing aspect, and I think it's one beyond JKR's control. :cool: She is not in charge of the marketing, after all!

I do think that fans tend to over-estimate how much control an author has over the film adaptation of their work. JKR has been much more blessed than other authors in that regard, since these films are very faithful to their source material and the film-makers actually listen to her input. :)

(This is your first post in 1,487 days? :wow: Congrats! :D )

JKR confuses me. She gives a clear indication of a RHR ship in the books and then allows the movie script writers to have many HHR scenes. I dunno what to make of this, whether this is her way of making up for all those HHR fans who were mad at her or whether she simply realized the HHR fluff would be a good marketing aspect for the movie.

Personally, am a HHR shipper. Always have been ever since i started reading the series and soldiered on grimly after the setbacks starting from GOF. The movies offer a different perspective for me, and i dunno whether to hate or love it. Love for the way the scenes give moments to keep rewinding on, hate for the false hope they offer on a relationship that has no future.

JKR never gave H/Hr shippers false hope in the books because it was quite obvious from reading the books and JKR's comments that Harry and Hermione would never get together and that Ron was the one Hermione had romantic feelings for.

It is a good marketing aspect, and I think it's one beyond JKR's control. :cool: She is not in charge of the marketing, after all!

I do think that fans tend to over-estimate how much control an author has over the film adaptation of their work. JKR has been much more blessed than other authors in that regard, since these films are very faithful to their source material and the film-makers actually listen to her input. :)

Were the films truly faithful to the source? :D I think the deviation started sometime around the GOF movie and its continued on. Many scenes that one felt were integral to the book were given no mention in the movie. New needless scenes were added, but that's a different issue for a different topic. ;)

But you are right, although showing a different ship to what was projected in the books is a major deviation.


(This is your first post in 1,487 days? :wow: Congrats! :D )

Haha. Never realized i had an ID here. Came back today on a whim. :D

JKR never gave H/Hr shippers false hope in the books because it was quite obvious from reading the books and JKR's comments that Harry and Hermione would never get together and that Ron was the one Hermione had romantic feelings for.

Lol. She made that very clear in GOF, although my remark there was in the context of the movies, not the books and directed partly at JKR, partly at the script writers.

In the ongoing dissatisfaction over the Harry/Hermione Dance Scene, I wonder what the average age is of folks who just are having kittens over it (really, really hated it) and those who like it and find it poignant and sweet. I'm wondering if age colors how one looks at this scene. I also wonder if gender influences one's reaction to it?

Myself? I LOVED the scene. My age: 52. Gender: Female. How about you?


53 year old male. Hated it. It was clearly intended to show sexual tension IMHO, not just Harry trying to cheer up Hermione.

I also understand why they put the dance in. In earlier posts I mentioned that two healthy young ppl alone could be expected to have those kind of feelings develop and this is how how the script writer decided to convey it. I just totally disagree with how they did it, especially since H\G is almost totally mishandled IMHO.

I have seen men go through much worse than what Harry and Hermione are facing and still remain faithful to their special loved ones at home. It appears that Harry was ready to have a "consolation romance" that could have put any hope of reconciliation between Harry and Ron in the dumpster as well as throw H\G out the window. Don't like that at all.

And another thing I just realized is that again Hermione gets to be the strong one by turning Harry down. That is another thing that bothers me about the movies... Ron (usually) and Harry (occasionally) are portrayed as right proper gits, but never Hermione IMHO. :no: :rolleyes:

That's because the movie makers, especially script writer Kloves, have neglected Ron's characterization and focused so much on Harry and Hermione.:grumble:

I'm not sure about that. I mean when I see Rupert and Emma together doing their more intimate scenes, both are being great actors, but I still don't end up believing them. Some actors have chemistry together onscreen, a kind of electricity between them. In the dance scene I felt it, in the scenes where Ron holds Hermione talks to her, not so much. He does a great love struck kind of acting, but when they are close, it doesn't transfer over to well.

And another thing I just realized is that again Hermione gets to be the strong one by turning Harry down. That is another thing that bothers me about the movies... Ron (usually) and Harry (occasionally) are portrayed as right proper gits, but never Hermione IMHO.

Well, that doesn't make her a git does it?

Anyway, I'm not convinced that Harry wouldn't have stopped it had it continued. I think they might have gone on, but neither one would have finished it. I don't think the film shows Harry as being a git. I don't think he began the dance for that reason.

In the ongoing dissatisfaction over the Harry/Hermione Dance Scene, I wonder what the average age is of folks who just are having kittens over it (really, really hated it) and those who like it and find it poignant and sweet. I'm wondering if age colors how one looks at this scene. I also wonder if gender influences one's reaction to it?

Myself? I LOVED the scene. My age: 52. Gender: Female. How about you?

22 yrs. Male. Absolutely loved it. But i have always been a HHR shipper, so duh!

JKR confuses me. She gives a clear indication of a RHR ship in the books and then allows the movie script writers to have many HHR scenes. I dunno what to make of this, whether this is her way of making up for all those HHR fans who were mad at her or whether she simply realized the HHR fluff would be a good marketing aspect for the movie.

Personally, am a HHR shipper. Always have been ever since i started reading the series and soldiered on grimly after the setbacks starting from GOF. The movies offer a different perspective for me, and i dunno whether to hate or love it. Love for the way the scenes give moments to keep rewinding on, hate for the false hope they offer on a relationship that has no future.

JKR doesn't have control over the scripts or screenplays. When you sell the rights to your work, well you sell the rights. Your only control comes with any contigencies you made at the time of the sale. We all know JKR has been very understanding of the movie making process.

I wonder what Kloves/producers/directors would say though if asked directly. Were they trying to plant a false lead and confuse the audience? Were they trying to build a surprise? Were they even aware of the confusion created. (I never felt confused, I think the movies gave the right hints about them all along). Did they feel they did it just right? Every movie from CoS on gives clear hints towards Ron and Hermione's future. That they didn't get more scenes together is interesting to ponder. What scenes would people have liked to have seen instead that would have conveyed more of what they were looking for. Or, what scenes would they delete? Should they have created a few non canon scenes?

JKR doesn't have control over the scripts or screenplays. When you sell the rights to your work, well you sell the rights. Your only control comes with any contigencies you made at the time of the sale. We all know JKR has been very understanding of the movie making process.

I wonder what Kloves/producers/directors would say though if asked directly. Were they trying to plant a false lead and confuse the audience? Were they trying to build a surprise? Were they even aware of the confusion created. (I never felt confused, I think the movies gave the right hints about them all along). Did they feel they did it just right? Every movie from CoS on gives clear hints towards Ron and Hermione's future. That they didn't get more scenes together is interesting to ponder. What scenes would people have liked to have seen instead that would have conveyed more of what they were looking for. Or, what scenes would they delete? Should they have created a few non canon scenes?

Anyone who has read the books knows who's ending up with whom, but am pretty sure there are many movie goers who haven't even bothered to read the book and just seen the movies. My muggle friend (:p) was sure that the dancing scene would lead to the two making out, and was quite disappointed when that didn't happen ( :rotfl:). Fact is, the movie people decided that Ron-Hermione chemistry or rather Rupert-Emma wasn't that big a seller when compared to Daniel-Emma, who have always had something to show on-screen.

Personally, no complaints but it just aint fair to my muggle friend and many others like him. I wonder what they will think during the Ron-Hermione kiss scene during the battle of hogwarts. I bet that scene will be cut along with the epilogue. Either that, or the movie makers are gonna look like fools. :D

I found the dance scene really confusing. (65 yr old female BTW) It said to me that in the privacy of not having Ron around H & H were developing a romantic relationship. Even their antagonism/coolness when Ron returned could have been seen in the light of having their closeness interrupted. I think the film makers have given themselves a hard job now to convince the non-reader that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny are the final relationships. I'm sure they could have found ways for Harry to comfort Hermione without bringing in the suggestion of romance.

26 yr old female

I really like the dance scene. I did not take this scene to be "romantic" at all. Most of my friends are male and I really appreciated the moment. At that point, Harry and Hermione only have each other. Ron as left them. Harry and Hermione have supported each other in ways Ron never could during the series. Harry sees how upset she is and just tries to have a little fun with her. I think the film makers were also saying that in times of war and struggle, we have to remember to laugh. Also, when the scene ends and Hermione goes back to being sad instantly, I think its them also telling us that the laughter can only last so long during these times.

Anyone who has read the books knows who's ending up with whom, but am pretty sure there are many movie goers who haven't even bothered to read the book and just seen the movies. My muggle friend (:p) was sure that the dancing scene would lead to the two making out, and was quite disappointed when that didn't happen ( :rotfl:). Fact is, the movie people decided that Ron-Hermione chemistry or rather Rupert-Emma wasn't that big a seller when compared to Daniel-Emma, who have always had something to show on-screen.

Personally, no complaints but it just aint fair to my muggle friend and many others like him. I wonder what they will think during the Ron-Hermione kiss scene during the battle of hogwarts. I bet that scene will be cut along with the epilogue. Either that, or the movie makers are gonna look like fools. :D


Well, I wonder if movie only watchers pay as much attention to, and are as invested in the character relationships the same way book readers-now-watching-it-viewers are? My daughter has never read the books and she doesn't nearly have the sense of the characters that I do. I doubt she even had a second thought during the dance scene. I don't think she has garnered enough from watching all the films to be rooting for one relationship over the other. It's always been a subplot and I don't think movie only watchers have as much emotional stock in it. So for R/Hr shippers, every scene is like a sacrilege that fails to pay proper homage to their relationship.

I'm not sure about that. I mean when I see Rupert and Emma together doing their more intimate scenes, both are being great actors, but I still don't end up believing them. Some actors have chemistry together onscreen, a kind of electricity between them. In the dance scene I felt it, in the scenes where Ron holds Hermione talks to her, not so much. He does a great love struck kind of acting, but when they are close, it doesn't transfer over to well.

I'm afraid I don't agree with that at all. I see more "chemistry" btw Ron and Hermione than I see btw Harry and Hermione on the screen. I'm sure some ppl just simply see Dan and Emma more as a potential couple, but I don't. I think that Rupert and Emma on screen and off have what I would consider good "chemistry".

I admit when they push Ron to the background as they did at the end of HBP where Harry and Hermione discuss the important plans as Ron sits in the dark on the stairs (they also do this in DH1 a few times as well) and pretty much cut Ron out of the important interactions of the trio then I could see how Harry and Hermione on screen could come across as having more chemistry.


Well, that doesn't make her a git does it?

That's the point I'm trying to make. With the dance scene where Harry makes what I would consider inappropriate advances on Hermione it is Hermione who stops it from going too far. So once again we are shown that Hermione is the real strong one in the trio, which is not how I view the relationships btw the members of the trio as presented in the books.

As I have said before, Hermione is let off the hook or presented in far too favorable a light in the movies in comparison to the books or her fellow trio members in the movies.


Anyway, I'm not convinced that Harry wouldn't have stopped it had it continued. I think they might have gone on, but neither one would have finished it. I don't think the film shows Harry as being a git. I don't think he began the dance for that reason.

The director says that is why they put the scene in, to show that there could have been a chance for H\Hr to happen. Daniel says in an interview that he was told by the director that Harry is trying to seduce Hermione. And that is what I see.

And yes, I consider Harry is being a git in the dance scene. If we take the director and the other actors at their word and Harry is indeed trying to seduce Hermione immeadiately after the boy she fancies (and his best friend) has left, then yes I consider that being a git at least (or a complete selfish jerk), no matter the motivation to make Hermione "feel better". It's sort of like if Ginny decided to date Neville while Harry was gone...I see it as something of a betrayal.

I found the dance scene really confusing. (65 yr old female BTW) It said to me that in the privacy of not having Ron around H & H were developing a romantic relationship. Even their antagonism/coolness when Ron returned could have been seen in the light of having their closeness interrupted. I think the film makers have given themselves a hard job now to convince the non-reader that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny are the final relationships. I'm sure they could have found ways for Harry to comfort Hermione without bringing in the suggestion of romance.

Totally and completely agree. :tu: :sigh:

Personally, no complaints but it just aint fair to my muggle friend and many others like him. I wonder what they will think during the Ron-Hermione kiss scene during the battle of hogwarts. I bet that scene will be cut along with the epilogue. Either that, or the movie makers are gonna look like fools. :D

I can see why you could feel this way.

Ajna,
It is posts like this that convinces me that the producers and Kloves have gone too far toward H\Hr and underplayed H\G and R\Hr too much. IMHO...

I'm not sure about that. I mean when I see Rupert and Emma together doing their more intimate scenes, both are being great actors, but I still don't end up believing them. Some actors have chemistry together onscreen, a kind of electricity between them. In the dance scene I felt it, in the scenes where Ron holds Hermione talks to her, not so much. He does a great love struck kind of acting, but when they are close, it doesn't transfer over to well.




I have always loved the on screen chemistry between Ron and Hermione. I think its soo cute that in every new movie their relationship goes up another level. I dont see how one doesn't notice their chemistry, I mean in the books its toatally obvious that they have feelings for one another. In the movies, I can see them starting to like each other in COS and so on.

As for the Harry and Hermione dance, I didn't like at all! This is just Hollywood at work trying to create sexual tension between the main leading role and the leading girl, and it's sad! But we all know the outcome, its Harry and Ginny in the end and ron and Hermione happly married.

Cant wait for Part 2 to finally see Ron and Hermione together at last. Ohhh and to see the most anticipated kiss in movie history :love:

Well, I wonder if movie only watchers pay as much attention to, and are as invested in the character relationships the same way book readers-now-watching-it-viewers are? My daughter has never read the books and she doesn't nearly have the sense of the characters that I do. I doubt she even had a second thought during the dance scene. I don't think she has garnered enough from watching all the films to be rooting for one relationship over the other. It's always been a subplot and I don't think movie only watchers have as much emotional stock in it. So for R/Hr shippers, every scene is like a sacrilege that fails to pay proper homage to their relationship.

I think my main problem is that it throws the balance of the relationships in the trio completely off.

Harry is the main driver b\c the story arc is about him growing up and facing his destiny as savior of the magical world.

Hermione is a driven perfectionist who also happens to have the intellect to follow through on her ambitions and help her friends.

Ron is an "average" fellow who grounds Harry and Hermione to the daily cares and concerns of the people they are trying to save from Voldemort's tyranny. Without Ron around Harry and Hermione would be lost in their own concerns and problems, as we saw when Ron left in DH.

Harry and Hermione are exceptional ppl in the typical definition of successful, but Ron is exceptional in an average way. He chooses for the sake of friendship and concern for his world to help even when he knows he is never going to receive the acclaim the Harry and Hermione will get. At a deep level Harry and Hermione also realize this and appreciate his friendship and support.

When the movies treat Ron as simply comic relief it is an insult to those who are willing to do what they can to defeat evil even if they aren't the "hero" of the story IMHO. And when the movies make it hard for the audience to accept that someone like Hermione could fall in love with someone like Ron (which I think they do) then it cheapens Ron and all the "average" ppl he represents.

That is why I care so much about R\Hr...that and I find their bickering and "opposites attract" romance incredibly funny and entertaining. :lol:

26 yr old female

I really like the dance scene. I did not take this scene to be "romantic" at all. Most of my friends are male and I really appreciated the moment. At that point, Harry and Hermione only have each other. Ron as left them. Harry and Hermione have supported each other in ways Ron never could during the series. Harry sees how upset she is and just tries to have a little fun with her. I think the film makers were also saying that in times of war and struggle, we have to remember to laugh. Also, when the scene ends and Hermione goes back to being sad instantly, I think its them also telling us that the laughter can only last so long during these times.

I totally agree with you. I think I like this scene very much because it gives a new meaning of are lonely they are at that moment. It helped me to feel more the dispair of their situation, their lonelyness. These two very young people have been abandoned by their best friend, they need to comfort each other, to ease their pain, even if it last only for a small moment. And it did work, Harry made Hermione smile, they had a bit of fun, they are kids again, but at the end of the dance, the situation haven't changed, they are still alone, right back where they were.

The director says that is why they put the scene in, to show that there could have been a chance for H\Hr to happen.
Wasn't the director's (or producer's?) context hinged on whether Ron did not return soon after that time frame of the dance, & only then was it possible for something to happen between H&H?

Wasn't this also the dance scene that JKR herself commented that she wished she had thought of it herself? I think the producer confirmed this is what JKR thought was a very good idea.
Daniel says in an interview that he was told by the director that Harry is trying to seduce Hermione.
Since all interviews are somewhere on the Internet, can you find that reference? I had not learned that before you posted it. Thanks. :)

Wasn't the director's (or producer's?) context hinged on whether Ron did not return soon after that time frame of the dance, & only then was it possible for something to happen between H&H?

Wasn't this also the dance scene that JKR herself commented that she wished she had thought of it herself? I think the producer confirmed this is what JKR thought was a very good idea.


The problem is that JKR never says anything negative about the movies and whenever someone asks her a question about the movies she is always glowing. I think due to this when asked about Kloves view on Harry and Hermione JKR just agreed with him because not agreeing with Kloves view on the issue would almost be like criticising him and in turn criticising the movies.

If you look at all the interviews from 1999 onwards JKR has always stated that Harry and Hermione are platonic friends.




Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?"
Rowling: [surprised] "Harry and Hermione! Do you think so?" -- From Katie Couric's June 2003 interview with JK Rowling


"Harry and Hermione are very platonic [platonic means nonsexual] friends. But I won't answer for anyone else. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink." -- From a National Press Club Luncheon chat with JK Rowling, October 1999)


Q: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire?
A: "Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy." -- From a BarnesandNoble.com chat with JK Rowling


Q: Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?
A: The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire! -- From a BBC chat with JK Rowling, March 12, 2001)

To me, the dance scene was normal, untill the end. I love Harry's and Hermione's friendship, but the dance seem to get awkward towards the end. When I was watching it with my mom the other night, she was even like "Please tell me they don't hookup" during the scene. I loved how he got her to smile and have fun for once, but I just wished they would of made the end of the scene less awkward and showing more of their friendship not some potential romance between them.

It is posts like this that convinces me that the producers and Kloves have gone too far toward H\Hr and underplayed H\G

You guys still had the zip me up kiss scene. :P

Actually, that's just another confirmation of how confusing the movie makers are trying to make the relations, something in sharp contrast to the way JKR has developed the ships in the books, but then she had the freedom of giving wordings to the characters, as well as her own subtle commentary in the background about how the characters feel about each other which is something the movie makers couldn't quite bring out.

Personally, i hated the way Ron was made to look during the travelling scenes before his big fight with Harry. His appearance and mannerisms were given a level of exaggeration i never imagined in the books.

I think my main problem is that it throws the balance of the relationships in the trio completely off.

Harry is the main driver b\c the story arc is about him growing up and facing his destiny as savior of the magical world.

Hermione is a driven perfectionist who also happens to have the intellect to follow through on her ambitions and help her friends.

Ron is an "average" fellow who grounds Harry and Hermione to the daily cares and concerns of the people they are trying to save from Voldemort's tyranny. Without Ron around Harry and Hermione would be lost in their own concerns and problems, as we saw when Ron left in DH.

Harry and Hermione are exceptional ppl in the typical definition of successful, but Ron is exceptional in an average way. He chooses for the sake of friendship and concern for his world to help even when he knows he is never going to receive the acclaim the Harry and Hermione will get. At a deep level Harry and Hermione also realize this and appreciate his friendship and support.

When the movies treat Ron as simply comic relief it is an insult to those who are willing to do what they can to defeat evil even if they aren't the "hero" of the story IMHO. And when the movies make it hard for the audience to accept that someone like Hermione could fall in love with someone like Ron (which I think they do) then it cheapens Ron and all the "average" ppl he represents.

That is why I care so much about R\Hr...that and I find their bickering and "opposites attract" romance incredibly funny and entertaining. :lol:

darlordspal, I love your response. I completely agree with you. I love Ron and Hermione romance :love: and I cant wait for their kiss in part 2!

I'm afraid I don't agree with that at all. I see more "chemistry" btw Ron and Hermione than I see btw Harry and Hermione on the screen. I'm sure some ppl just simply see Dan and Emma more as a potential couple, but I don't. I think that Rupert and Emma on screen and off have what I would consider good "chemistry".

I admit when they push Ron to the background as they did at the end of HBP where Harry and Hermione discuss the important plans as Ron sits in the dark on the stairs (they also do this in DH1 a few times as well) and pretty much cut Ron out of the important interactions of the trio then I could see how Harry and Hermione on screen could come across as having more chemistry.




That's the point I'm trying to make. With the dance scene where Harry makes what I would consider inappropriate advances on Hermione it is Hermione who stops it from going too far. So once again we are shown that Hermione is the real strong one in the trio, which is not how I view the relationships btw the members of the trio as presented in the books.

As I have said before, Hermione is let off the hook or presented in far too favorable a light in the movies in comparison to the books or her fellow trio members in the movies.




The director says that is why they put the scene in, to show that there could have been a chance for H\Hr to happen. Daniel says in an interview that he was told by the director that Harry is trying to seduce Hermione. And that is what I see.

And yes, I consider Harry is being a git in the dance scene. If we take the director and the other actors at their word and Harry is indeed trying to seduce Hermione immeadiately after the boy she fancies (and his best friend) has left, then yes I consider that being a git at least (or a complete selfish jerk), no matter the motivation to make Hermione "feel better". It's sort of like if Ginny decided to date Neville while Harry was gone...I see it as something of a betrayal.



Totally and completely agree. :tu: :sigh:



I can see why you could feel this way.

Ajna,
It is posts like this that convinces me that the producers and Kloves have gone too far toward H\Hr and underplayed H\G and R\Hr too much. IMHO...

I never saw it as an advance in that he planned the dance as an advance. I think he started the dance to cheer her up and then they both felt something. I don't think Harry would have continued. Even if it had come to a kiss, I don't see that is wrong.

Not sure I see the shunting of Ron to the background as the 'reason' for my not seeing a chemistry though.

Well said! I think it shows Harry as some sort of Don Juan who will try it on with anyone female. I much prefer the Harry of the books who acknowledged Hermione's distress at Ron's departure and treated her like the good friend she had always been. I'm not so partial to this opportunist Harry of the films. I hope he felt embarrassed when Ron was shown by the horcrux what he and Hermione would have been doing if Harry had had his way. Grrr.

But in the book, he didn't treat Hermione all the well in my opinion.

Even if it had come to a kiss, I don't see that is wrong.

I think it is wrong if they did kiss. I mean Harry would be cheating on Ginny (the girl he truley loves) and betraying Ron (who is his best friend). And on top of all, it would make Harry look like a bad friend :no: I would probably boo that scene if that indeed happened.

Even if it had come to a kiss, I don't see that is wrong.


Of course it is wrong. At the very least Harry is cheating on Ginny (someone he is supposed to be in love with) and it can also be argued he is also betraying both Ron and Hermione as he knows they have strong feelings for one another and he would be taking advantage of Hermione in a moment of emotional weakness.

Even if it had come to a kiss, I don't see that is wrong.

I wouldn't want to see the aftermath of that situation... I think there would be an outrage, possibly a murder!

:eeep:

I wouldn't want to see the aftermath of that situation... I think there would be an outrage, possibly a murder!

:eeep:

I wouldn't go as far to say murder but its obvious Harry and Hermione are not in love so they wouldn't get together but the kiss would destroy Harry's relationship with Ginny and Hermione's potential relationship with Ron.

A kiss between Harry and Hermione would arguably ruin 4 peoples lives not to mention it would mean neither Harry or Hermione would be welcome at the Weasley's anymore (and that is something that is important to both of them).

I wouldn't want to see the aftermath of that situation... I think there would be an outrage, possibly a murder!

:eeep:

I wouldn't go as far to say murder but its obvious Harry and Hermione are not in love so they wouldn't get together but the kiss would destroy Harry's relationship with Ginny and Hermione's potential relationship with Ron.

A kiss between Harry and Hermione would arguably ruin 4 peoples lives not to mention it would mean neither Harry or Hermione would be welcome at the Weasley's anymore (and that is something that is important to both of them).

Of course it is wrong. At the very least Harry is cheating on Ginny (someone he is supposed to be in love with) and it can also be argued he is also betraying both Ron and Hermione as he knows they have strong feelings for one another and he would be taking advantage of Hermione in a moment of emotional weakness.

I think it is wrong if they did kiss. I mean Harry would be cheating on Ginny (the girl he truley loves) and betraying Ron (who is his best friend). And on top of all, it would make Harry look like a bad friend :no: I would probably boo that scene if that indeed happened.

This would have been classic fanfic material right here. :rotfl: Any takers? ;)

Agree with ya all. It would have skewed up the book-movie equation beyond repair.

I wouldn't want to see the aftermath of that situation... I think there would be an outrage, possibly a murder!

:eeep:

LOL :rotfl:
I would stand up and boo so loudly that I would be thrown out of the movie theatre.

I just saw the film again and i really got the impression Harry wasnt trying to put moves on Hermione at all but was simply trying to get her to stop sulking and smile. Which she did for a little bit and then went back to being sad. To me, it felt more like a best friend/brother and sister moment.

I just saw the film again and i really got the impression Harry wasnt trying to put moves on Hermione at all but was simply trying to get her to stop sulking and smile. Which she did for a little bit and then went back to being sad. To me, it felt more like a best friend/brother and sister moment.

I agree! I hated the scene, but I never thought that it was in any way a way to come on to Hermione. In the books, Harry seems very aware of their attraction, and I think it would have been very misjudged to put a scene like that in the film when Ron has just left because he perceives them to be growing romantically closer. It was uncomfortable to watch, but I never got a romantic vibe off the scene. Harry clearly still has feelings for Ginny and to try and get together with Hermione is betraying Ron and Ginny.

As for 'that scene', which I assume is the kiss between Harry and Hermione, I didn't think it was that much of a big deal. It's what the horcrux is using to try and prevent Ron from destroying it, by belittling him. It plays on his fears and insecurities, one of which is that Hermione will fall for Harry rather than him. It wasn't a real kiss between the characters, just a projection to freak out Ron. I didn't think it was particularly shocking or wrong in any way. The scene is also surprisingly faithful to the same scene in the book, and it didn't really come as that much of a surprise...!

Of course it is wrong. At the very least Harry is cheating on Ginny (someone he is supposed to be in love with) and it can also be argued he is also betraying both Ron and Hermione as he knows they have strong feelings for one another and he would be taking advantage of Hermione in a moment of emotional weakness.

I guess I don't see it as a sealer. These are young people. They are 17 years old. They are still working themselves out. Nobody's engaged. No one has a ring or promise. I don't see it as a seduction. I see it as a moment that would pass. I don't see it as a morality issue. I think, at it's core, that is what bothers people, is that the idea of it seems, somehow immoral.

Of course it is wrong. At the very least Harry is cheating on Ginny (someone he is supposed to be in love with) and it can also be argued he is also betraying both Ron and Hermione as he knows they have strong feelings for one another and he would be taking advantage of Hermione in a moment of emotional weakness.

I guess I don't see it as a sealer. These are young people. They are 17 years old. They are still working themselves out. Nobody's engaged. No one has a ring or promise. I don't see it as a seduction. I see it as a moment that would pass. I don't see it as a morality issue. I think, at it's core, that is what bothers people, is that the idea of it seems, somehow immoral.

As for 'that scene', which I assume is the kiss between Harry and Hermione, I didn't think it was that much of a big deal.

I always assumed "That scene" referred to the dance scene.

Since all interviews are somewhere on the Internet, can you find that reference? I had not learned that before you posted it. Thanks. :)

As I recall Dan was standing on a street in London after the primere of DH1 and a British reporter was asking him about the dance scene and what it meant and Dan said the director told him to play it like Harry was trying to seduce Hermione.

I don't remember if it was on youtube or on a newspaper website. Sorry.

When I first saw it, I thought, "oh no no no!" After seeing it the second time, to me it just seemed Harry was trying to cheer her up and make her her smile for a little while. I just thought she walked away because she was still sad. Remember. these three have grown up together, they have all been virtually inseparable, except for a few spats, for years. I imagine Ron's departure caused them both almost unbearable pain.

You know, I was just thinking over the entire series, Hermione has ALWAYS been there for Harry, no matter what. In almost every instance since GoF she has stood by him when Ron has not. Harry and Hermione have grown to love each other, but not in the way that Ron and Hermione love each other. All three have been incrediblely close all these years, all are great friends, but you see there's the additional thing that once you cross the line, and a "friend" becomes your romantic interest, if that part fails, most of the time you lose the friendship and the romantic part. Even if you remain "friends" after the romance is gone, the friendship will never be the same. No wonder Hermione was so sad. She felt she had lost her friend and her boyfriend when Ron left. I think if he hadn't come back, she would not ever have anything to do with him again.

But I still think Harry was just trying to lighten up the situation for them, maybe it might have gone further if these two had been different types of people, but it didn't, not in the book [when they had ample chance after Ron left] and not in the movies. So since it didn't happen, I think it is a great testimony to the characters of Harry and Hermione.

You can try to analyze this little "dance scene" all you want to, but I will always see it as a dance between friends. A little light in the darkness.

LOL :rotfl:
I would stand up and boo so loudly that I would be thrown out of the movie theatre.

Yes, it would be like yelling, "FIRE!" in the theater. I think mobs of viewers would stampede out of there and possibly picket the situation. ;)

As I recall Dan was standing on a street in London after the primere of DH1 and a British reporter was asking him about the dance scene and what it meant and Dan said the director told him to play it like Harry was trying to seduce Hermione.

I don't remember if it was on youtube or on a newspaper website. Sorry.

Sometimes, as a director, I tell actors to do things in a certain way - but it's just a means of getting what I want across.

I might tell an actor to act as though he is going to eat the other actor, when the result I want is for him to look like he is seducing her.

I might tell an actor to act as though he is seducing another actor, but the result I want might be for them to look silly or - as we've mentioned here - like a brother cheering up a sister.

Were the films truly faithful to the source? :D

Compared with the changes Peter Jackson made to LotR, and the forthcoming film adaptation of Susan Hill's ghost story The Woman in Black, starring Dan Radcliffe, I would say a resounding 'yes'. :)

The problem is that JKR never says anything negative about the movies and whenever someone asks her a question about the movies she is always glowing. I think due to this when asked about Kloves view on Harry and Hermione JKR just agreed with him because not agreeing with Kloves view on the issue would almost be like criticising him and in turn criticising the movies.

I don't see why she is required to be negative about the films. :hmm: Her enjoyment of them seems quite genuine to me, and I'm pleased for her. :)

The changes made in these films are minimal compared to most other book-to-film adaptations I've ever seen. Many film adaptations make big changes to the stories they were adapted from, far bigger than we see in the HP films.

The HBP film spent a lot of time on the fact that Hermione is in love with Ron. In DH 1, the romance between them is quietly building. It won't be some big surprise in DH 2.

The problem is that JKR never says anything negative about the movies and whenever someone asks her a question about the movies she is always glowing. I think due to this when asked about Kloves view on Harry and Hermione JKR just agreed with him because not agreeing with Kloves view on the issue would almost be like criticising him and in turn criticising the movies.

Have you read this article written by JK Rowling yet?
http://bluetoad.com/publication/?i=67460&p=36

Why would she write that if she's just being nice about the movies in interviews?

I found the dance scene really confusing. (65 yr old female BTW) It said to me that in the privacy of not having Ron around H & H were developing a romantic relationship.
Lots of close friends often dance with each other's partners. There was no hint of a kiss coming on without adding your imagination. If you can watch that scene closely, as I have, then I saw no romance implied. The producer Heyman said JKR wished she had wrote or thought of that herself. The song was very carefully selected to set the tone too, and it was far from romantic in nature. It was about the innocence lost for the children living in a dark world.
Even their antagonism/coolness when Ron returned could have been seen in the light of having their closeness interrupted.
Not compared to Ron's & Hermione's volatile love relationship. :lol: Of course, Ron was going to catch hell for leaving, but Harry 'took' to Ron right away. He jokingly advised him to keep mentioning that "ball of light" to get back on her good side. What specific scene or instances showed antagonism towards Ron other than Hermione's love by "fire"? I think the Trio "triangle" was forged & hardened well by DH1, and 'the return' of Ron ultimately strengthened their relationships & bonds as a Trio. It matured & forged the relationships well beyond primal urges into the deepest of friendships & love knowing its purpose.
I think the film makers have given themselves a hard job now to convince the non-reader that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny are the final relationships. I'm sure they could have found ways for Harry to comfort Hermione without bringing in the suggestion of romance.
Usually, we are in perfect agreement, but for those that watched GoF onward it is absolutely clear to me what the final relationships will be. In DH1 Ginny & Harry have the most racy-sexy scene of the entire series, imo. I'm sure DH2 is going to seal the deal.

Sometimes, as a director, I tell actors to do things in a certain way - but it's just a means of getting what I want across.

I might tell an actor to act as though he is going to eat the other actor, when the result I want is for him to look like he is seducing her.

I might tell an actor to act as though he is seducing another actor, but the result I want might be for them to look silly or - as we've mentioned here - like a brother cheering up a sister.

I suppose that is possible. But being a stage director myself on occasion I don't see how you would expect to get a "brother-sister" moment out of suggesting one should seduce the other. That seems a bit of a stretch....:hmm:

I can only go by what I saw on the screen and what the director and actors have said, and that indicates they were hinting at a H\Hr romance. Now, I have said in the past that I think JKR was originally planning for there to be a short H\Hr romance but decided to drop it. That is just my own opinion. I really don't see any other reason to have Ron leave other than to develop some "alone" time for Harry and Hermione. Ron could have saved Harry and faced the locket without leaving...but JKR decided to knock Ron down yet another peg in the eyes of many of the readers. :no: Oh well, it's not my story to tell.

I guess it might be that his leaving makes his returning and "redemption" by destroying the locket more powerful. But alot of ppl focus on Ron's failures and not the his successes, especially compared to Hermione.

Lots of close friends often dance with each other's partners. There was no hint of a kiss coming on without adding your imagination. If you can watch that scene closely, as I have, then I saw no romance implied.

I might have agreed if Harry doesn't remove the locket before they start dancing. Plus the look Hermione gives Harry where she almost goes back to him before she finally leaves tells me different.

I guess I don't see it as a sealer. These are young people. They are 17 years old. They are still working themselves out. Nobody's engaged. No one has a ring or promise. I don't see it as a seduction. I see it as a moment that would pass. I don't see it as a morality issue. I think, at it's core, that is what bothers people, is that the idea of it seems, somehow immoral.

Maybe I'm old fashioned. Maybe I have a dated idea of love and romance, but I don't accept the idea of "friends with benefits" as a very healthy relationship for most ppl...:no:

And I might even accept the idea that since Ron and Hermione haven't really committed to each other that wouldn't be a problem. But JKR says Harry and Ginny are "soulmates", I think that would be a problem for Harry and Hermione.

I'm afraid I don't agree with that at all. I see more "chemistry" btw Ron and Hermione than I see btw Harry and Hermione on the screen. I'm sure some ppl just simply see Dan and Emma more as a potential couple, but I don't. I think that Rupert and Emma on screen and off have what I would consider good "chemistry".

I admit when they push Ron to the background as they did at the end of HBP where Harry and Hermione discuss the important plans as Ron sits in the dark on the stairs (they also do this in DH1 a few times as well) and pretty much cut Ron out of the important interactions of the trio then I could see how Harry and Hermione on screen could come across as having more chemistry.




That's the point I'm trying to make. With the dance scene where Harry makes what I would consider inappropriate advances on Hermione it is Hermione who stops it from going too far. So once again we are shown that Hermione is the real strong one in the trio, which is not how I view the relationships btw the members of the trio as presented in the books.

As I have said before, Hermione is let off the hook or presented in far too favorable a light in the movies in comparison to the books or her fellow trio members in the movies.




The director says that is why they put the scene in, to show that there could have been a chance for H\Hr to happen. Daniel says in an interview that he was told by the director that Harry is trying to seduce Hermione. And that is what I see.

And yes, I consider Harry is being a git in the dance scene. If we take the director and the other actors at their word and Harry is indeed trying to seduce Hermione immeadiately after the boy she fancies (and his best friend) has left, then yes I consider that being a git at least (or a complete selfish jerk), no matter the motivation to make Hermione "feel better". It's sort of like if Ginny decided to date Neville while Harry was gone...I see it as something of a betrayal.



Totally and completely agree. :tu: :sigh:



I can see why you could feel this way.

Ajna,
It is posts like this that convinces me that the producers and Kloves have gone too far toward H\Hr and underplayed H\G and R\Hr too much. IMHO...

I just don't see much seduction in the dance scene. Radcliffe comes off as a dork trying to cheer up a friend. They included Harry telling Dumbledore that Hermione is brilliant but just a friend in HBP already. It's just always been clear in my mind that it's Hermione and Ron in the movies as well as in the books. Also, how has R/Hr been underplayed? The movies have pretty much hinted at their pairing on a consistent basis since the end of Chamber of Secrets.

I might have agreed if Harry doesn't remove the locket before they start dancing.
Wasn't the locket already known to cause emotional outbursts & bad feelings? Why would Harry want to dance with Hermione with 'that' thing on knowing the trouble it will likely cause?
Plus the look Hermione gives Harry where she almost goes back to him before she finally leaves tells me different.
Is this during the dance? At the end of the dance Hermione sees Harry's gaze for about one second (or less) & then deliberately looks down to prevent any eye contact between her & Harry. She sends a clear signal to Harry that 'the fun' in that dance-moment is over. She walks directly away from Harry too. Harry just stands there passively in a kind of daze with no focused intent or movement. (I would agree Harry did look into Hermione's eyes to catch 'a read' on her feelings, and he got her reply of looking down & walking away.) The happy radio dance-moment is lost to the reality of being alone again without Ron. How can that not be any clearer what her intentions are & the outcome for the rest of that evening?

I think we read into what we see that sometimes it paints our own interpretation, seen between the lines, beyond whatever the actors actually did do. Given the variety of responses to what this scene means I think 'that' definitely proves my point here.

We can go on reading into the What Ifs about this too, and I think this is where some are jumping to conclusions that are not even there to be seen. What If Hermione had returned her eye contact to Harry's & locked in that moment, maybe a kiss, maybe a hug of thanks, maybe another dance, but that never happened. It's not possible, as that is the past tense. ;)

All of the above, imo. Luna blessings! :tu:

P.S. About the filming detail and precision of when Hermione looks down away from Harry: the make-up artist had plenty of eyelash highlight on Emma's eyes, more than usual, so one could easily see Emma's eye movements & closure. Furthermore, the director had Emma turn precisely, so her face & eye profile was back-lighted by a small light in the tent. This is not done by accident, no! This is so the audience could clearly see the emphasis being placed by artful direction that Hermione does look down after seeing Harry's gaze preventing any further eye contact with Harry.

Wasn't the locket already known to cause emotional outbursts & bad feelings? Why would Harry want to dance with Hermione with 'that' thing on knowing the trouble it will likely cause?

Is this during the dance? At the end of the dance Hermione sees Harry's gaze for about one second (or less) & then deliberately looks down to prevent any eye contact between her & Harry. She sends a clear signal to Harry that 'the fun' in that dance-moment is over. She walks directly away from Harry too. Harry just stands there passively in a kind of daze with no focused intent or movement. (I would agree Harry did look into Hermione's eyes to catch 'a read' on her feelings, and he got her reply of looking down & walking away.) The happy radio dance-moment is lost to the reality of being alone again without Ron. How can that not be any clearer what her intentions are & the outcome for the rest of that evening?

I think we read into what we see that sometimes it paints our own interpretation, seen between the lines, beyond whatever the actors actually did do. Given the variety of responses to what this scene means I think 'that' definitely proves my point here.

We can go on reading into the What Ifs about this too, and I think this is where some are jumping to conclusions that are not even there to be seen. What If Hermione had returned her eye contact to Harry's & locked in that moment, maybe a kiss, maybe a hug of thanks, maybe another dance, but that never happened. It's not possible, as that is the past tense. ;)

All of the above, imo. Luna blessings! :tu:

P.S. About the filming detail and precision of when Hermione looks down away from Harry: the make-up artist had plenty of eyelash highlight on Emma's eyes, more than usual, so one could easily see Emma's eye movements & closure. Furthermore, the director had Emma turn precisely, so her face & eye profile was back-lighted by a small light in the tent. This is not done by accident, no! This is so the audience could clearly see the emphasis being placed by artful direction that Hermione does look down after seeing Harry's gaze preventing any further eye contact with Harry.

Hmmm. I loved your post script, because it signifies that if you pay attention, you can notice how much the director tries to pass off to those who don't pay attention by mere skill of directing :). (If that made any sense :))

As for your interpretation of the scene, and the discussion by ajna as previously started. Well, I am a 21 year old female, and I thought the scene had the potential to be really nice, but it messed up in tone what it could have achieved in cinematic temper and placement. I very honestly, very clearly saw a small intent from Harry's side. Not when they are dancing, no. That is the most brotherly/sisterly goofy thing that they could do. But BEFORE they start dancing and AFTER the stop dancing, thats when you see Harry toeing the line that in reality he should be so far away from that it shouldn't even be visible to him. Hermione on the other hand, as you very well pointed out, I thought, never even contemplated this thing Harry was trying to explore. I thought she just went ahead with the dance, thought it was a friend thing, and in the end saw this confusion in Harry's eyes, and just walked away. It wasn't a moment of decision for her at all, it wasn't even a "in the end she walked away". It simply was a very instinctive reaction on her part when she realised that Harry was perhaps doing something that he would regret the next morning.

Coming back to the purpose of the scene. I agree with everyone who says that you put two super close friends of the opposite sex in a similar situation, and there is a very high possibility that such thoughts might cross their mind. I agree. But it doesn't happen in every case, a. And b, especially not if you happen to be very much in love with two other people. And c, I would still understand it if it was even remotely hinted at in the books. There wasn't a word in the series that hinted at any romantic tension between Harry and Hermione. I also thought, that in a way, its a sign of how strong and platonic their friendship is, that they both never even mentioned the thing again, and continued to be normal with eachother thereafter. If there was actually even remotely a hint of sexual tension, NO two people can continue to act like whatever happened didn't really happen. there has to be a reaction usually, but there was none from them. Which automatically means, that they let it go as a one off thing and just never cared about it much to let it affect their equation even slightly.

I think my main problem is that it throws the balance of the relationships in the trio completely off.

Harry is the main driver b\c the story arc is about him growing up and facing his destiny as savior of the magical world.

Hermione is a driven perfectionist who also happens to have the intellect to follow through on her ambitions and help her friends.

Ron is an "average" fellow who grounds Harry and Hermione to the daily cares and concerns of the people they are trying to save from Voldemort's tyranny. Without Ron around Harry and Hermione would be lost in their own concerns and problems, as we saw when Ron left in DH.

Harry and Hermione are exceptional ppl in the typical definition of successful, but Ron is exceptional in an average way. He chooses for the sake of friendship and concern for his world to help even when he knows he is never going to receive the acclaim the Harry and Hermione will get. At a deep level Harry and Hermione also realize this and appreciate his friendship and support.

When the movies treat Ron as simply comic relief it is an insult to those who are willing to do what they can to defeat evil even if they aren't the "hero" of the story IMHO. And when the movies make it hard for the audience to accept that someone like Hermione could fall in love with someone like Ron (which I think they do) then it cheapens Ron and all the "average" ppl he represents.

That is why I care so much about R\Hr...that and I find their bickering and "opposites attract" romance incredibly funny and entertaining. :lol:

I love your point about the well defined roles of the three in the trio :). Usually all one reads is Heart (Ron), Soul (harry), and Brain/Spirit (Hermione). But I like how definitional your understanding is, of the three and their importance and role in eachothers lives.
I thoroughly agree with everyone who says that Ron has been mis-characterized in the movies. He has been, there is no doubt about it. But the thing is, for us to love Ron, we have the books. We have every single word written about him, that shows us all his flaws, his weaknesses and despite all of that his absolutely adorable and humanly good side, which makes most girls yearn for a Ron in real life (*cough*). I think its quite difficult, to sketch such a non white/black character effectively on screen. You cannot do it with the limited amount of time you have to develop each characters story. i agree, they should not give his lines to hermione, and in that effect they perhaps could have atleast highlighted his loyalty and passion if nothing else. Oh well. i think its the entire lead boy lead girl steal the show thing. But despite that I think, Grint has done quite well for himself. he has quite a huge following for the Ron he plays, and another guy with that kind of material could not have probably managed as well.

As for the chemistry. I think Dan/Emma (atleast now, not during the earlier poa-gof days) have a very very comfortable, brother/sister vibe. I mean, have you seen the two interact? Its so comfortable and friendly. With rupert on the other hand, she is comfortable (after all she has grown up with him over the last 10 years) ofcourse, but there is something that is not quite the same. Either its tension (on his part, or hers too sometimes i feel), or just genuine streal of awkwardness, I dont know. I feel they bring out Ron/Hermione quite well on screen, but in every such scene, they try a little too hard to ensure that their own equation is not reflected and its more like Ron/Hermione. With Dan/Emma there is no such tension, as they can be as they are off the set, because thats exactly how Harry and Hermione are. I am not suggesting that something is going on between rupert and emma, all I am saying is, that when you play the lead romantic couple over a span of ten years, and you are young kids, you sometimes just dont know what part of your equation is being reflected on screen. Hope that made sense :).

And as for Jo. I was mega disappointed when she made that statement about how she thought there were two "charged" moments between Harry and Hermione in the books. I don't believe for a second that she wrote them as that. Even for a second. I mean read the moments she mentioned, not an iota of a hint. I don't know why she said that, maybe Kloves made her believe that its possible. But like I said, just because its possible doesn't mean it holds true for everyone (especially for two characters that are created by someone else and who decides their possibilities).

PHEW.
:)

As for 'that scene', which I assume is the kiss between Harry and Hermione, I didn't think it was that much of a big deal. It's what the horcrux is using to try and prevent Ron from destroying it, by belittling him. It plays on his fears and insecurities, one of which is that Hermione will fall for Harry rather than him. It wasn't a real kiss between the characters, just a projection to freak out Ron. I didn't think it was particularly shocking or wrong in any way. The scene is also surprisingly faithful to the same scene in the book, and it didn't really come as that much of a surprise...!
I agree. It was disturbing but it was supposed to be. You can see the horror and pain Ron is going through in that scene.

Compared with the changes Peter Jackson made to LotR, and the forthcoming film adaptation of Susan Hill's ghost story The Woman in Black, starring Dan Radcliffe, I would say a resounding 'yes'. :)



I don't see why she is required to be negative about the films. :hmm: Her enjoyment of them seems quite genuine to me, and I'm pleased for her. :)

The changes made in these films are minimal compared to most other book-to-film adaptations I've ever seen. Many film adaptations make big changes to the stories they were adapted from, far bigger than we see in the HP films.

The HBP film spent a lot of time on the fact that Hermione is in love with Ron. In DH 1, the romance between them is quietly building. It won't be some big surprise in DH 2.

Indeed. Given how Hermione reacts on screen to Ron leaving, its pretty clear shes really cut up about it and not even Harry can do much to snap her out of it. Just like the book.

I guess I don't see it as a sealer. These are young people. They are 17 years old. They are still working themselves out. Nobody's engaged. No one has a ring or promise. I don't see it as a seduction. I see it as a moment that would pass. I don't see it as a morality issue. I think, at it's core, that is what bothers people, is that the idea of it seems, somehow immoral.


What do you call this

She took a step closer to him.

"So then I thought, I'd like you to have something to remember me by, you know, if you meet some veela when you're off doing whatever you're doing."

"I think dating opportunities are going to be pretty thin on the ground, to be honest."

"There's the silver lining I've been looking for," she whispered, and then she was kissing him as she had never kissed him before, and Harry was kissing her back, and it was blissful oblivion better than firewhisky; she was the only real thing in the world, Ginny, the feel of her, one hand at her back and one in her long, sweet-smelling hair-

In that moment Harry and Ginny made a silent agreement to remain faithful to each other, to wait for each other.

It is even worse in the movies because Harry and Ginny never actually break up so him trying to make the moves on Hermione is cheating as Harry does have a girlfriend already, a girlfriend he claims to love.

I really don't see any other reason to have Ron leave other than to develop some "alone" time for Harry and Hermione.

Well, yes. Perhaps she wanted to create alone time between Harry and Hermione so that the jealousy and feelings of being an outsider could eat at Ron even more - then the images that come out of the horcrux can really target Ron's deepest fears about them.


I might have agreed if Harry doesn't remove the locket before they start dancing.

I figured he removed the locket so that she could escape from it's depressing spell, and just dance and forget her worries. Maybe Harry was meant to "seduce" her away from reality, and bring her to a happier place.

As for your interpretation of the scene, and the discussion by ajna as previously started. Well, I am a 21 year old female, and I thought the scene had the potential to be really nice, but it messed up in tone what it could have achieved in cinematic temper and placement. I very honestly, very clearly saw a small intent from Harry's side. Not when they are dancing, no. That is the most brotherly/sisterly goofy thing that they could do. But BEFORE they start dancing and AFTER the stop dancing, thats when you see Harry toeing the line that in reality he should be so far away from that it shouldn't even be visible to him. Hermione on the other hand, as you very well pointed out, I thought, never even contemplated this thing Harry was trying to explore. I thought she just went ahead with the dance, thought it was a friend thing, and in the end saw this confusion in Harry's eyes, and just walked away. It wasn't a moment of decision for her at all, it wasn't even a "in the end she walked away". It simply was a very instinctive reaction on her part when she realised that Harry was perhaps doing something that he would regret the next morning.

Coming back to the purpose of the scene. I agree with everyone who says that you put two super close friends of the opposite sex in a similar situation, and there is a very high possibility that such thoughts might cross their mind. I agree. But it doesn't happen in every case, a. And b, especially not if you happen to be very much in love with two other people. And c, I would still understand it if it was even remotely hinted at in the books. There wasn't a word in the series that hinted at any romantic tension between Harry and Hermione. I also thought, that in a way, its a sign of how strong and platonic their friendship is, that they both never even mentioned the thing again, and continued to be normal with eachother thereafter. If there was actually even remotely a hint of sexual tension, NO two people can continue to act like whatever happened didn't really happen. there has to be a reaction usually, but there was none from them. Which automatically means, that they let it go as a one off thing and just never cared about it much to let it affect their equation even slightly.

I couldn't have said it better myself :) I never thought that Harry was trying to seduce Hermione. It really just seemed like he was trying to cheer up his friend because she was so physically upset since her real love interest had left. I agree that Harry's expression and his "look" at Hermione was just to see how she was doing, if in fact his little dance had cheered her up some. If the point of the dance was to ship H/Hr, then I feel that their behavior after the fact would have been different (i.e. not strictly platonic) to show that they had progressed past friendship. But, the dance is over and nothing in their relationship changes, which leads me to believe it was just a dance between two friends.

This is probably the main reason I do not like this scene- because it can give the wrong impression about Harry and Hermione to some people, and it just creates confusion.

I very honestly, very clearly saw a small intent from Harry's side. Not when they are dancing, no. That is the most brotherly/sisterly goofy thing that they could do. But BEFORE they start dancing and AFTER they stop dancing, thats when you see Harry toeing the line that in reality he should be so far away from that it shouldn't even be visible to him.
I can't resist analyzing this with you to the Nth degree, :D so here goes... After watching the scene before the dance I want you to take this into consideration. Ron was showing signs of jealousy between H&H within their argument. Harry suggested why don't you just leave. All of this explosion was totally due to the Horcrux, imo. (Jealousy Anger) Hermione was shocked & crushed by Ron leaving. She tied her scarf around the tree in hopes that Ron would find it & know that she cared for him & missed him. After apparating to the new location Hermione is wiping tears from her eyes. She goes off by herself leaving Harry to set-up the protection charms & tent himself. Then she is moping alone in the tent away from Harry almost caressing the radio hoping to find Ron in those airwaves.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I don't think it is remotely possible Harry was trying to make a move on Hermione, that idea was brought to the fore by Ron, as I think Harry felt really really really bad he had told his best friend to leave. Now, he sees Ron's girlfriend is sick & hurting over his mistake & stupid argument with Ron. So, he has now, in turn, hurt his best girl 'friend' too. I just can't believe for a moment, with this in mind, that Harry thinks now is my chance to make a move on Hermione with the even the slightest hint of romance under those circumstances. It just seems completely impossible to me.

Harry was not caught "in the moment" before the dance, imo. Harry thought he had some serious cheering-up to do for his "idiot" mistake. He impulsively thought 'dance' with the tune heard on the radio. Anything to get Hermione out of her very sad sad state of mind. It was an act of desperation, because I think Harry knows he cannot dance very well himself. What kind of moves can he make, Harry dancing? :elaugh:
Hermione on the other hand, as you very well pointed out, I thought, never even contemplated this thing Harry was trying to explore. I thought she just went ahead with the dance, thought it was a friend thing, and in the end saw this confusion in Harry's eyes, and just walked away. It wasn't a moment of decision for her at all, it wasn't even a "in the end she walked away". It simply was a very instinctive reaction on her part when she realised that Harry was perhaps doing something that he would regret the next morning.
After reading what you wrote above and where you wrote: ... "AFTER they stop dancing, thats when you see Harry toeing the line that in reality he should be so far away from that it shouldn't even be visible to him."

I have to agree with you that Hermione did sense that Harry had "a look" in his eyes. I think you might agree that his intent, whatever that is interpreted to be, was fleeting away about as fast as it appeared. ;)

Personally, I just think Harry was carried away at the very end of the dance, when he rested his cheek against her shoulder & neck. Then they looked at each other so very close & abruptly that Harry may have crossed that boundary & line of intimacy for just an instant. It was 5 seconds, I counted, that Harry might have signaled something, but as you & I both agree it went nowhere. Hermione turned away & encouraged nothing from Harry. She clearly indicated the opposite of sharing any intimacy between them.

It was an awkward moment for Harry, but it is too fleeting to be meaningful, imo. Harry clearly understood Hermione appreciated the dance but wanted to be alone by herself too. The very next scene Hermione is outside the tent alone early in the morning. Meanwhile, Harry is pondering about the Golden Snitch on his cot inside the tent.

All of the above, imo. Luna Blessings! :tu:

The problem is that JKR never says anything negative about the movies and whenever someone asks her a question about the movies she is always glowing. I think due to this when asked about Kloves view on Harry and Hermione JKR just agreed with him because not agreeing with Kloves view on the issue would almost be like criticising him and in turn criticising the movies.

Or she just understands how it goes and likes what she sees.

I just don't understand. If you are willing to say Ron's jealousy and Harry's suggestion for him to leave is all due to the horcrux then why is it any less of a stretch to suggest that Harry and Hermione had a momentary lapse also because of the horcrux. There was something there in the scene. There was tension. The idea that the horcrux caused it is certainly enough for me. I mean they may not have been wearing it at that moment but it was still a burden on them at the time.

I think if there is any reason as to why Harry and Hermione are not completely at fault for this lapse it is because they were clearly being effected and manipulated by the horcrux.

What do you call this



In that moment Harry and Ginny made a silent agreement to remain faithful to each other, to wait for each other.

It is even worse in the movies because Harry and Ginny never actually break up so him trying to make the moves on Hermione is cheating as Harry does have a girlfriend already, a girlfriend he claims to love.


LOL I call that an assumption not a fact.


BTW, Yates said he thought it would be interesting to create this tension in this scene. I think he succeeded!

I just don't understand. If you are willing to say Ron's jealousy and Harry's suggestion for him to leave is all due to the horcrux then why is it any less of a stretch to suggest that Harry and Hermione had a momentary lapse also because of the horcrux. There was something there in the scene. There was tension. The idea that the horcrux caused it is certainly enough for me. I mean they may not have been wearing it at that moment but it was still a burden on them at the time.
I don't think Hermione, who was wearing the Horcrux that Harry removed, was attracted to Harry by any means, way, shape, or form, since she was almost "hugging" the radio for Ron.

Could the Horcrux have affected Harry? I agree with you that it is possible. It can't be ruled out, imo. He touched it to remove it. The Horcrux was onto the vibe of jealousy & intimacy with Ron's mind & heart. Harry also got volatile w/Ron. Also, Harry did see the vision Ron was seeing when he destroyed the Horcrux, so that proves 'when it opened' it could affect anyone nearby.

I think you make a valid & good point that the Horcrux might have had some effects on that "tension" & scene too. :)

I just don't understand. If you are willing to say Ron's jealousy and Harry's suggestion for him to leave is all due to the horcrux then why is it any less of a stretch to suggest that Harry and Hermione had a momentary lapse also because of the horcrux. There was something there in the scene. There was tension. The idea that the horcrux caused it is certainly enough for me. I mean they may not have been wearing it at that moment but it was still a burden on them at the time.

I think if there is any reason as to why Harry and Hermione are not completely at fault for this lapse it is because they were clearly being effected and manipulated by the horcrux.

The only problem with that theory is that as far as we know the horcrux feeds on negative emotions. Convincing Ron that Hermione didn't want him is one thing but i have a hard time imagining why it would be in the horcruxes interest to get Harry and Hermione together.


LOL I call that an assumption not a fact.


Its a very reasonable assumption. Its clear that Ginny doesn't want Harry to meet any other girls on the horcrux hunt and Harry's response seems to indicate that he isn't interested in other girls and that it is Ginny that he wants. Ginny certainly took it to mean that as she kissed him right after he said it. Had Harry said "well if i happen to meet a girl on the horcrux hunt i won't rule out making a move on them" i doubt Ginny would have kissed him. That kiss was a silent agreement that they would wait for each other.



BTW, Yates said he thought it would be interesting to create this tension in this scene. I think he succeeded!

Yates goal conflicted with what we know of the characters. He may as well have changed Hermione so she liked gossiping with Lavender or changed Harry so he enjoyed studying in the library.

I saw love in this scene, not romance. I just wanted to point out the major difference, in my mind.

I saw love in this scene, not romance. I just wanted to point out the major difference, in my mind.

There is a difference. I have never ever stated that Harry and Hermione do not love each other because i think they do. I just think that it is platonic love and there is no romantic or sexual feelings there what so ever.

I personally think adding sexual tension cheapens Harry's and Hermione's friendship as platonic love is special and isn't portrayed that often in todays media. Adding the sexual tension completely removes what is special about their relationship.

Don't know if these have been posted in this thread yet, but here are some interview clips with Dan Radcliffe and David Yates speaking about the Harry and Hermione dance and how it was meant to be a bit of a "what if" moment and/or hint at some sexual tension between the two:


David Yates (skip to 0:43) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2pzcRomrs

Dan Radcliffe (skip to 0:21) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JKJfakn3Ko

Dan Radcliffe again (skip to 7:15) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI14REUQkXo


There might be other interview clips or written interviews similar to these ones, but I just remembered having come across these ones after seeing the film.

As for my views on that scene...I knew before seeing the film that Harry and Hermione would have a dance, but if I remember correctly I just assumed it would be a cute, friendly dance. Maybe I've watched too many movies/TV shows, but I definitely saw some suggestion of er, something more than friendship when Harry was gazing at Hermione those two times, and in the way he removed the locket from around her neck (like someone else on this thread said, it just looked a little bit too intimate, the way he did that). It just seemed wrong to me, because Harry and Hermione are supposed to be like brother and sister to each other. The dancing itself was cute and sad because of the song playing in the background, but the rest...:huh: Even the films have made it clear that Harry and Hermione have a strong friendship, and that Ron and Hermione love each other, so I thought the tension in the dancing scene was unnecessary.

Despite the fact that they've completely botched the Harry and Ginny relationship in the films, they did attempt to make the audience think that Harry and Ginny had something going at the beginning of DH Part 1, however awkwardly and half-heartedly it was done. So to have Harry try to initiate something with Hermione cheapens even the little bit of interest he showed in Ginny (he seems to forget all about her after they leave the wedding; as others have said on this thread, I don't think it would have taken up too much time to just show him looking at Ginny's name on the Marauders' Map once or twice). I'm just wondering how it's going to make any sense that Harry is married to Ginny in the epilogue in Part 2. Although, from what they showed in the ABC Family DH Part 2 preview:

they will have at least one kiss between Harry and Ginny, and there was that clip of Ginny seeming to scream "No!" as a reaction to whatever was happening to Harry in that scene

so there's that, at least.

Their scene in DH Part 1 was marginally better than their scenes in HBP, but they chose a camera angle that made the scene as almost as boring (lack of emotion) and awkward as the one in HBP (I know they had to show George walking into the room, but they've released movie stills of that scene taken from different, better angles which actually showed their facial expressions, and it just baffles me that they didn't go with one of those). So, Harry and Ginny in DH Part 1: it was OK; better than HBP. It was nice that they had Harry attempt to run to Ginny when the Death Eaters crashed the wedding, I suppose.

As for Ron and Hermione in DH Part 1, I really loved all their moments. I think they handled them just right. The scene where Ron gazes at Hermione as she's trying to teach him to play the piano pretty much said everything.

I can't resist analyzing this with you to the Nth degree, :D so here goes... After watching the scene before the dance I want you to take this into consideration. Ron was showing signs of jealousy between H&H within their argument. Harry suggested why don't you just leave. All of this explosion was totally due to the Horcrux, imo. (Jealousy Anger) Hermione was shocked & crushed by Ron leaving. She tied her scarf around the tree in hopes that Ron would find it & know that she cared for him & missed him. After apparating to the new location Hermione is wiping tears from her eyes. She goes off by herself leaving Harry to set-up the protection charms & tent himself. Then she is moping alone in the tent away from Harry almost caressing the radio hoping to find Ron in those airwaves.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I don't think it is remotely possible Harry was trying to make a move on Hermione, that idea was brought to the fore by Ron, as I think Harry felt really really really bad he had told his best friend to leave. Now, he sees Ron's girlfriend is sick & hurting over his mistake & stupid argument with Ron. So, he has now, in turn, hurt his best girl 'friend' too. I just can't believe for a moment, with this in mind, that Harry thinks now is my chance to make a move on Hermione with the even the slightest hint of romance under those circumstances. It just seems completely impossible to me.

Harry was not caught "in the moment" before the dance, imo. Harry thought he had some serious cheering-up to do for his "idiot" mistake. He impulsively thought 'dance' with the tune heard on the radio. Anything to get Hermione out of her very sad sad state of mind. It was an act of desperation, because I think Harry knows he cannot dance very well himself. What kind of moves can he make, Harry dancing? :elaugh:

After reading what you wrote above and where you wrote: ... "AFTER they stop dancing, thats when you see Harry toeing the line that in reality he should be so far away from that it shouldn't even be visible to him."

I have to agree with you that Hermione did sense that Harry had "a look" in his eyes. I think you might agree that his intent, whatever that is interpreted to be, was fleeting away about as fast as it appeared. ;)

Personally, I just think Harry was carried away at the very end of the dance, when he rested his cheek against her shoulder & neck. Then they looked at each other so very close & abruptly that Harry may have crossed that boundary & line of intimacy for just an instant. It was 5 seconds, I counted, that Harry might have signaled something, but as you & I both agree it went nowhere. Hermione turned away & encouraged nothing from Harry. She clearly indicated the opposite of sharing any intimacy between them.

It was an awkward moment for Harry, but it is too fleeting to be meaningful, imo. Harry clearly understood Hermione appreciated the dance but wanted to be alone by herself too. The very next scene Hermione is outside the tent alone early in the morning. Meanwhile, Harry is pondering about the Golden Snitch on his cot inside the tent.

All of the above, imo. Luna Blessings! :tu:

You make some rather interesting points :). (P.S- This is totally off topic but I think I can sneak it in without the mods slashing their wands- do you think such discussions could actually take place between two people face to face over coffee? Or does weather and politics and movies take the prerogative of being conversation pullers?). Anyway, now that that line of thread is out of the spool- Coming to the dance. I think this is what it basically comes down to- what the intent of the maker/creator/director/actors is, and what your own interpretation of their end product is. Any piece of creative production, be it literary in nature, or art or even movies, can never be one dimensional, and always has to have different tones to it. It might be intentional on the creators part to maintain that ambiguity, or he might have a single minded purpose and goal for his creation, yet, people feel its upto them to dissect the piece if they so wish to. This is also where the shipping wars and H/Hr shippers come into the picture you know. I mean its clear as cut to me that it was always meant to be Ron/Hermione, always. Its been JK's prime ship in the series too, and you can see that she loves to write their story. All of this is known, yet a very LARGE chunk of the population mind you chose to see Harry/Hermione happen. We can argue on and on about how thats so irrational, etc etc. but rationality in itself is restricted by our own view of it, that we just cannot accept a different point of view.
Why am i saying all this? because I think that what it comes down to is, how people choose to view an end product, is independent of the intent of the creator. Sometimes, as in most times with me, my views match with the creators, and sometimes someone might see their work in a different light.
So basically, I think everyone in this forum has an opinion, based on their own experience, their own expectations from the book's translation to the screen, their own mood when they were watching it, everything is important to form an instinctive opinion.
I think the intention in itself by the film maker is independent of anything that has ever been suggested in the book. I think its definitely possible to have a boy and a girl be very close with one another and yet not have a moment of INTIMACY. that as intimate, what they shared. I have a friend I dote on, and I goofy dance with him all the time, but if he EVER tried to cheer me up like Harry did, I would know instantly where that was heading. ANYWAY (wow, I digress SO much), I think they established the loss of Ron very well, especially from Hermione's point of view. I understand what you say wandrider (can i just have your name? :) ), in the sense, the scene would lack continuity given what they were establishing moments before it came on. But understand this, this is the kind of scene that DOESNT require a build up- that was the point of the scene. That you can have all that love for someone, but there can be a moment where you just forget what is happening beyond your current action. Its just a momentary lapse of reality. that is not to mean that harry harbors secret undying passion for hermione (hardly), he just wasn't in his right mind. It can happen. It was as momentary as a few seconds as you said. I don't think it even entered harry's mind before or after the scene ended. It was just that one time. And after that all was back to normal.
Do I think thats possible between two people? Yes. Do i think thats possible between the Harry/Hermione of the books? NOT in the least. Do i think thats possible between Harry/Hermione of the movies? Yes.
(P.S- I don't think the Horcrux had anything to do with it. Its like a dementor, basically amplifies your insecurities and fears. It can hardly initiate emotions that never existed in the first place).

On an offhand hastily scribbled note on a glazed mirror- Ron and Hermione make new age love sound so boring. Its quite tragic in a way. Sigh :)

The only problem with that theory is that as far as we know the horcrux feeds on negative emotions. Convincing Ron that Hermione didn't want him is one thing but i have a hard time imagining why it would be in the horcruxes interest to get Harry and Hermione together.




Its a very reasonable assumption. Its clear that Ginny doesn't want Harry to meet any other girls on the horcrux hunt and Harry's response seems to indicate that he isn't interested in other girls and that it is Ginny that he wants. Ginny certainly took it to mean that as she kissed him right after he said it. Had Harry said "well if i happen to meet a girl on the horcrux hunt i won't rule out making a move on them" i doubt Ginny would have kissed him. That kiss was a silent agreement that they would wait for each other.




Yates goal conflicted with what we know of the characters. He may as well have changed Hermione so she liked gossiping with Lavender or changed Harry so he enjoyed studying in the library.


But that's not what he (Yates) was trying to do. He was not trying to just mix up characters to see what happened like throwing up the dice and seeing where they fall. I can see that for you with H/G it must have felt like a promise. You asked me what I would call it and I honestly answered your question: An assumption.Your view is that Yates conflicted with what we know of characters. On the other side of the coin, I see Kloves/Yates, opening up ideas and throwing aside assumptions at times.

But that's not what he (Yates) was trying to do. He was not trying to just mix up characters to see what happened like throwing up the dice and seeing where they fall. I can see that for you with H/G it must have felt like a promise. You asked me what I would call it and I honestly answered your question: An assumption.Your view is that Yates conflicted with what we know of characters. On the other side of the coin, I see Kloves/Yates, opening up ideas and throwing aside assumptions at times.

What they are doing is going for the traditional Hollywood cliche. They look at Harry, Ron and Hermione and say "well Harry is the main character (and main male character) and Hermione is the main female character so obviously there should at the very least be sexual tension between them".

JKR was far less cliched in the books as she didn't have the main male character end up with the main female character. She also created a true platonic friendship between Harry and Hermione and platonic friendships between a male and female are also quite rare in Hollywood (which is probably why Yates and Kloves were not a fan of it).

If you make assumptions about other people's opinions, please state them as such. This includes the filmmakers. Thanks.

What they are doing is going for the traditional Hollywood cliche. They look at Harry, Ron and Hermione and say "well Harry is the main character (and main male character) and Hermione is the main female character so obviously there should at the very least be sexual tension between them".
I'm not entirely sure if you're talking about the dance or the horcrux image (in fact reading through the whole thread I can't tell).

But, I will say this: The other day I watched an interview of Dan Radcliffe in which he described the scene (I'll have to paraphrase) as "you think Harry and Hermione are about to.... but no, wait, they're still just friends." So clearly, though he acknowledges what it may have looked like, he was not playing that scene as anything other than an intimate moment between friends. And personally, when I first saw that scene, I thought it was an affirmation that there wasn't any sexual tension between them.

As for the horcrux image... that wasn't real. It had nothing to do with the real Harry and Hermione, it was only there to pique Ron's insecurities. I have no memory of what it did in the book, but I liked the scene for its Ron content.

I'm not entirely sure if you're talking about the dance or the horcrux image (in fact reading through the whole thread I can't tell).

But, I will say this: The other day I watched an interview of Dan Radcliffe in which he described the scene (I'll have to paraphrase) as "you think Harry and Hermione are about to.... but no, wait, they're still just friends." So clearly, though he acknowledges what it may have looked like, he was not playing that scene as anything other than an intimate moment between friends. And personally, when I first saw that scene, I thought it was an affirmation that there wasn't any sexual tension between them.

As for the horcrux image... that wasn't real. It had nothing to do with the real Harry and Hermione, it was only there to pique Ron's insecurities. I have no memory of what it did in the book, but I liked the scene for its Ron content.

On the Blu Ray disc, in Maximum Movie Mode, they have a featurette on the dance. They basically say that yes, it was their intention to show some sexual tension between Harry and Hermione. Whether or not people see it is another discussion, but I think it's safe to say that indeed, that was meant to be a will they or won't they moment.

The important point is that Hermione turned away, making it a "won't" moment. I'd personally argue that for Hermione, it was always a "won't" moment. She doesn't look all that eager to take Harry's hand when he first offers it, she's reluctant to even dance. It's only for a moment that she gives in and smiles (at that point, it's because of the silliness of Harry's dancing and the absurdity of the situation) and then, at the end, it's Harry that looks like he wants to kiss her or something--the "something" is in his eyes, IMO. And Hermione's emotions go back to the sad place and she turns away. It's always clear to me that her heart is with Ron.

On the Blu Ray disc, in Maximum Movie Mode, they have a featurette on the dance. They basically say that yes, it was their intention to show some sexual tension between Harry and Hermione. Whether or not people see it is another discussion, but I think it's safe to say that indeed, that was meant to be a will they or won't they moment.
Can you be a bit more specific about where that came from? I have the blu-ray, I just haven't gotten around to watching all of the features yet. (I have to say, that's what I love the most about DVDs and blu-rays--the features and commentary are usually pretty informative about the creative process.)

The important point is that Hermione turned away, making it a "won't" moment. I'd personally argue that for Hermione, it was always a "won't" moment. She doesn't look all that eager to take Harry's hand when he first offers it, she's reluctant to even dance. It's only for a moment that she gives in and smiles (at that point, it's because of the silliness of Harry's dancing and the absurdity of the situation) and then, at the end, it's Harry that looks like he wants to kiss her or something--the "something" is in his eyes, IMO. And Hermione's emotions go back to the sad place and she turns away. It's always clear to me that her heart is with Ron.
Eh... I don't really buy that interpretation because it presumes Harry's intent was somehow predicated on sex or romantic emotions. If we don't use that premise, then there's nothing for Hermione to turn away from (literally or otherwise), merely that which she was turning back to. I mean, I agree with you completely about Hermione, at least in that she was obviously still pondering matters elsewhere. But, I honestly don't remember seeing anything in Harry's countenance other than camaraderie and affection.

Given Hermione's state of being, doesn't it make a lot more sense that Harry simply perceived her distress and improvised a distraction? Since the result of the scene was, one way or the other, evidence that Harry and Hermione were not suddenly going to become a couple, I don't see how it could be called "showing sexual tension." That is, unless Harry goes on to despair of his unrequited love for Hermione in Part 2.

Can you be a bit more specific about where that came from? I have the blu-ray, I just haven't gotten around to watching all of the features yet. (I have to say, that's what I love the most about DVDs and blu-rays--the features and commentary are usually pretty informative about the creative process.)

Put the movie disc in. Turn on Maximum movie mode. Watch movie. Featurettes pop up at different points in the film to describe the creative process, scenes, etc. The one about the dance comes up when the dance scene comes up. I assume you can select that scene specifically from the menu if you don't feel like watching the whole movie.

As for this:
Given Hermione's state of being, doesn't it make a lot more sense that Harry simply perceived her distress and improvised a distraction? Since the result of the scene was, one way or the other, evidence that Harry and Hermione were not suddenly going to become a couple, I don't see how it could be called "showing sexual tension." That is, unless Harry goes on to despair of his unrequited love for Hermione in Part 2.

You'll have to argue that with the director. He's the one who said it! As did Emma. I think you'll find her take on the scene interesting.

My feeling is, a moment of attraction between friends can happen. It doesn't mean that either one of them were hoping for a relationship to come out of it. It's that one moment in time, a fleeting feeling of attraction. For me, that's all this scene was about--one singular, lonely moment in time when neither one of them could be with the one they want, and for one moment felt a connection to each other. And then it ended. They both know they don't want to be with each other--but that doesn't always mean the thought doesn't cross a person's mind!

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/ochildren.shtml

Dunno how many of ya have read this one. Thought provoking read.

My feeling is, a moment of attraction between friends can happen. It doesn't mean that either one of them were hoping for a relationship to come out of it. It's that one moment in time, a fleeting feeling of attraction. For me, that's all this scene was about--one singular, lonely moment in time when neither one of them could be with the one they want, and for one moment felt a connection to each other. And then it ended. They both know they don't want to be with each other--but that doesn't always mean the thought doesn't cross a person's mind!
I guess that's the thing, the fact that it was only one fleeting moment means to me that it wasn't real. I'm mostly reacting to some other posts wherein people argue that Harry is trying to seduce Hermione, etc., which seems like a major departure not just from the books but from previous films.

So I think the overall consequence of the scene is actually more important to consider than the literal content: First, the viewer will be implanted briefly with the concern that Ron's fears are justified, but then just as quickly that concern will be dismissed--an isolated moment of what could have been but isn't. In other words, the fact that it did have overtones of romance but was pointedly fleeting and ultimately innocent means that those feelings never really existed. In the end, I think, the scene has to do with involving the viewer in Ron's feelings, and it is not meant as a development for Harry or Hermione. (Edit: I should clarify, not as a romantic development for them. Certainly there are other issues involved that do have significance.)

The problem is that in the books Ron's fears about Harry and Hermione are supposed to be completely unfounded and entirely in his head. In the movies though i think his fear has more justification as clearly in the movies Harry does have feelings for Hermione that are not quite that of a brother and a sister.

The fact that Ron's fears are justified in the movies just irks me because it completely destroys the point of Ron's fears being solely about him and his insecurities and instead made it so Ron's fears were at least partly justified.

The problem is that in the books Ron's fears about Harry and Hermione are supposed to be completely unfounded and entirely in his head. In the movies though i think his fear has more justification as clearly in the movies Harry does have feelings for Hermione that are not quite that of a brother and a sister.

The fact that Ron's fears are justified in the movies just irks me because it completely destroys the point of Ron's fears being solely about him and his insecurities and instead made it so Ron's fears were at least partly justified.
If you feel that Harry was betraying feelings for Hermione, I can't argue, but I think that would represent a total departure from the film canon, I think it is nowhere else supported in this film, and I believe it is unlikely to be developed in the last film.

Furthermore, I do not think the only possibilities for their relationship are those of siblings or of lovers. Very close and intimate friendships regardless of sex can exist that transcend a familial one, depending on the people, and there is lots of room on a continuum besides.

I guess that's the thing, the fact that it was only one fleeting moment means to me that it wasn't real. I'm mostly reacting to some other posts wherein people argue that Harry is trying to seduce Hermione, etc., which seems like a major departure not just from the books but from previous films.

So I think the overall consequence of the scene is actually more important to consider than the literal content: First, the viewer will be implanted briefly with the concern that Ron's fears are justified, but then just as quickly that concern will be dismissed--an isolated moment of what could have been but isn't. In other words, the fact that it did have overtones of romance but was pointedly fleeting and ultimately innocent means that those feelings never really existed. In the end, I think, the scene has to do with involving the viewer in Ron's feelings, and it is not meant as a development for Harry or Hermione. (Edit: I should clarify, not as a romantic development for them. Certainly there are other issues involved that do have significance.)

I think, in the end, you and I agree :lol: I don't believe they were trying to develop a triangle, and that the "feelings" they had for each other were directly a result of that particular situation--isolation, desperation, and loneliness where both of them are missing the person they wanted the most. I can totally see how this moment came about. And I don't see how it in any way confirms Ron's fears, because if Ron had still been there, this wouldn't have happened. If Ron had just been outside looking for food and H/Hr were left alone they wouldn't have had this dance, this moment. In some ways, they were victims of their circumstance.

So given how this dance scene played out, I think it really does show Ron's fears are unfounded. But also, in real life, it wouldn't be uncommon for two guys and a girl who are friends to have some tension or suspicion that your friend is moving in on your chick. I think that is human nature. And since Ron isn't the most confident guy to begin with and the horcrux is affecting him more strongly that it's not surprising that his jealousy hit a high and they had a falling out. Horcrux Hermione pretty much says it all "Who would want you...compared to Harry Potter...You are nothing..." That's his Big Fear, that the girl he likes really wants his best friend. Doesn't everyone have that fear that the person they like instead likes someone else at least one in their life? (it's a pretty common movie theme! :rotfl:) It's that fear of rejection--of putting yourself out there and not having your feelings returned.That hurts! Ever say "I love you" to someone and not get it in return? :wow:

Anyway, I'm babbling now! :no:

I think, in the end, you and I agree :lol: I don't believe they were trying to develop a triangle, and that the "feelings" they had for each other were directly a result of that particular situation--isolation, desperation, and loneliness where both of them are missing the person they wanted the most. I can totally see how this moment came about. And I don't see how it in any way confirms Ron's fears, because if Ron had still been there, this wouldn't have happened. If Ron had just been outside looking for food and H/Hr were left alone they wouldn't have had this dance, this moment. In some ways, they were victims of their circumstance.

So given how this dance scene played out, I think it really does show Ron's fears are unfounded. But also, in real life, it wouldn't be uncommon for two guys and a girl who are friends to have some tension or suspicion that your friend is moving in on your chick. I think that is human nature. And since Ron isn't the most confident guy to begin with and the horcrux is affecting him more strongly that it's not surprising that his jealousy hit a high and they had a falling out. Horcrux Hermione pretty much says it all "Who would want you...compared to Harry Potter...You are nothing..." That's his Big Fear, that the girl he likes really wants his best friend. Doesn't everyone have that fear that the person they like instead likes someone else at least one in their life? (it's a pretty common movie theme! :rotfl:) It's that fear of rejection--of putting yourself out there and not having your feelings returned.That hurts! Ever say "I love you" to someone and not get it in return? :wow:

Anyway, I'm babbling now! :no:
I suppose we do agree on the significance of it all, but I still don't believe any actual romantic content is necessary for the scene to work (though I believe everyone who says they did see it). It's like, "maybe Ron isn't a total nutcase for thinking what he thinks, since even I thought that for a second." Oh well, while I think the absence of romance makes the point better, at least we agree that it wasn't the culmination of Harry's six-year plan to win over Hermione. :lol:

What they are doing is going for the traditional Hollywood cliche. They look at Harry, Ron and Hermione and say "well Harry is the main character (and main male character) and Hermione is the main female character so obviously there should at the very least be sexual tension between them".

JKR was far less cliched in the books as she didn't have the main male character end up with the main female character. She also created a true platonic friendship between Harry and Hermione and platonic friendships between a male and female are also quite rare in Hollywood (which is probably why Yates and Kloves were not a fan of it).


I think they were just creating a situation, because, as Yates said, having the sexual tension would be interesting. Personally, in my own experiences in life, I've seen and experienced situations like this. I'm willing to bet they have too. And it is interesting. I won't say that the dance lacked any sexual tension, but, personally, from my point of view, it was not a seduction scene and the platonic relationship between H/Hr remains intact, so really we can't say Yates and Kloves are not fans of such. I mean, if we want to talk about how the script was being manipulated to suit, my view is that it was to the better in that it didn't treat all the relationships as two dimensional. It put some what if's in there, some conflict, and that makes it interesting. It was a fleeting moment, that is all. What's really interesting is everyone's different take on it. Everyone has a different point of view. Mine is that that darn dance scene was one of my favorite scenes in the entire movie.

Eh... I don't really buy that interpretation because it presumes Harry's intent was somehow predicated on sex or romantic emotions. If we don't use that premise, then there's nothing for Hermione to turn away from (literally or otherwise), merely that which she was turning back to. I mean, I agree with you completely about Hermione, at least in that she was obviously still pondering matters elsewhere. But, I honestly don't remember seeing anything in Harry's countenance other than camaraderie and affection.

I like this quote. Because that's how it felt for me. I didn't see Hermione rejecting Harry's "advances", I saw her engage in a moment of comradery and distraction and then turn away from it. Her sorrow was deeper than momentary distraction, and she was in despair, so she gives up on the dance. I saw Harry as truly trying to be a friend in a desperate moment, in the middle of nowhere, nowhere to go, turn to, or talk to. That the moment arises briefly where there some feelings is so brief, so tangential, and both reject it ultimately in my opinion.

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/ochildren.shtml

Dunno how many of ya have read this one. Thought provoking read.


Thanks for posting that. It really didn't provoke any thoughts or otherwise in me, (except for confirming that Dan and Emma do have some chemistry onscreen), but it sounds exactly like what Gingercat feels about the scene.

The problem is that in the books Ron's fears about Harry and Hermione are supposed to be completely unfounded and entirely in his head. In the movies though i think his fear has more justification as clearly in the movies Harry does have feelings for Hermione that are not quite that of a brother and a sister.

The fact that Ron's fears are justified in the movies just irks me because it completely destroys the point of Ron's fears being solely about him and his insecurities and instead made it so Ron's fears were at least partly justified.

I just completely disagree. Where else in the series does Harry show feelings for Hermione that are not quite that of a brother and sister? They even made a point to have Harry tell Dumbledore Hermione is just a friend in HBP. What about when Ron says Hermione has nice skin in HBP? Harry says sure and that he's never even thought about it. Even the one scene that supposedly shows these "feelings" in DH is arguable. Furthermore, it is clearly shown that it is the horcrux that is causing Ron's fears to strongly emerge. His fears don't emerge because he sees true "sexual tension". He just sees them together after or during harmless moments and the horcrux plays on this.

I think this is what it basically comes down to- what the intent of the maker/creator/director/actors is, and what your own interpretation of their end product is. ... I think the intention in itself by the film maker is independent of anything that has ever been suggested in the book.
Yates quoting: "It's friendship but it almost becomes something else. You can almost feel when they're alone together that it could slip into something that was more than just friendship, and that tension I think is really interesting."

Paraphrasing & quoting Daniel Radcliffe: After being alone together & being such incredibly "fantastic" friends with the added loneliness (isolation) for a few months "you (might) start to fancy each other" so in that scene it perhaps "provokes a bit of lust". In another interview Dan says the audience might think something is going to happen between them during the dance, but it doesn't actually happen. He leaves it open to interpretation what that 'happening' is. He says "no, it's fine they are not" (going to do 'it'). He says it's something that happened as a one time event.
I understand what you say wandrider (can i just have your name? :) ), in the sense, the scene would lack continuity given what they were establishing moments before it came on. But understand this, this is the kind of scene that DOESNT require a build up- that was the point of the scene. That you can have all that love for someone, but there can be a moment where you just forget what is happening beyond your current action. Its just a momentary lapse of reality. that is not to mean that harry harbors secret undying passion for hermione (hardly), he just wasn't in his right mind. It can happen. It was as momentary as a few seconds as you said. I don't think it even entered harry's mind before or after the scene ended. It was just that one time. And after that all was back to normal.
Yes, brilliant :) wandrider2 :lol:
On an offhand hastily scribbled note on a glazed mirror- Ron and Hermione make new age love sound so boring. Its quite tragic in a way. Sigh :)
I think Yates shall be "fired & flushed" :blush: if he doesn't have a most passionate, hottest scene yet, between Ron & Hermione in DH2. ;) Otherwise, all we ever saw were the sparks of volatility, yes, love-swings & practicing a cute tune on the piano. :shrug:
(P.S- This is totally off topic but I think I can sneak it in without the mods slashing their wands- do you think such discussions could actually take place between two people face to face over coffee? Or does weather and politics and movies take the prerogative of being conversation pullers?).
A HP coffee klatsch with your mind. :love: Though I will alternate the ongoing superb conversations with Ethiopian roast or Mocha cafe' & chocolate croissant or Scottish Breakfast tea & a currant scone. And you? :relax: :)

A HP coffee klatsch with your mind. :love: Though I will alternate the ongoing superb conversations with Ethiopian roast or Mocha cafe' & chocolate croissant with Scottish Breakfast tea & a currant scone. And you? :relax:

Okay however lovely this off topic chatter between you two, chocoron and wandrider is can you take it to owls, profile messages or maybe even Cafe Voldemort (Quibbler) which has coffee in abundance. That way we can continue discussing the topic here ;)

BTW, Yates said he thought it would be interesting to create this tension in this scene. I think he succeeded!

And that is what annoys me so much. lol

Look, b\c the movies are based on a very popular book series and everyone who read them are going to go into the movies with their own set of preconceptions. Take LoTR for example. I liked alot of what was done with Jackson's interpetation, but there is some I didn't (why tone down Gandalf's character and why did they have that silly wobbling staircase scene in Moria?).

As for HP, JKR developed a heroic trio with certain basic characteristics and relationships that grabbed the attention of the world. You would think they would want to keep those basic relationships and characters intact and maybe change some things around the edges or amplify those basic relationships, but nooo....

They have to reinterpete these into movie cliches and turn several 3-dimensional characters into 2-dimesional props for the Harry-Hermione partnership. There was so much more they could have done and achieved. But to add sexual tension between Harry and Hermione while ignoring H\G and making Ron less important than Hermione upsets me b\c Ron and R\Hr is such an intregal part of understanding what I think JKR was trying to say in HP. And one of these is love in all its many forms can overcome all obstacles, even death (Harry's mom sacrifices herself to save Harry and when Harry sacrifices himself for his friends). And in the case of the "brother-sister" love of Harry and Hermione they had throw in sexual tension. How incredibly short-sighted and predictable of Kloves, Yates, and the producers. :(

MOD ALERT: They may edit what I'm about to write...

As for the dance scene and what the actions of Harry and Hermione mean...

I may be old fashioned, but in the older movies I grew up with removing an article of clothing or jewelry from another character in an intimate situation was often symbolic of disrobement. And a girl standing close to a man and looking down was often accepted as flirting or shyness at the intimate attention of a man. :whistle:

There is also the moment the next morning where Harry starts to apologize for what happened the night before during the dance and Hermione stops him by telling him to "never let her cut his hair again". I interpete that as Hermione is telling Harry, "Let's not make that mistake again." IMHO.

If I include that with what is said by Yates and others then I don't feel I'm not out of line to conclude they wanted to change how the audience sees the relationship between Harry and Hermione from that in the books.

As for the dance scene and what the actions of Harry and Hermione mean...

I may be old fashioned, but in the older movies I grew up with removing an article of clothing or jewelry from another character in an intimate situation was often symbolic of disrobement. And a girl standing close to a man and looking down was often accepted as flirting or shyness at the intimate attention of a man. :whistle:

There is also the moment the next morning where Harry starts to apologize for what happened the night before during the dance and Hermione stops him by telling him to "never let her cut his hair again". I interpete that as Hermione is telling Harry, "Let's not make that mistake again." IMHO.

If I include that with what is said by Yates and others then I don't feel I'm not out of line to conclude they wanted to change how the audience sees the relationship between Harry and Hermione from that in the books.

I agree with everything you wrote here. This is exactly what i saw in both of those scenes. I think that is what happened and there are those who disagree and i just don't really see that there can be any discussion between those two sides of the argument. I think all we can do is agree to disagree on the matter.

I know that in the book there is nothing between Harry and Hermione but i don't really see how that is relevant to what is happening in this scene in the film and i think that comes up as to why people say there is nothing there. I think the scene is slightly out of character which is why people want to see it as if there is nothing there. I actually think that there are three moments in DH1 where Dan is out of character and i think this is one of them.

I love your point about the well defined roles of the three in the trio :). Usually all one reads is Heart (Ron), Soul (harry), and Brain/Spirit (Hermione). But I like how definitional your understanding is, of the three and their importance and role in eachothers lives.
I thoroughly agree with everyone who says that Ron has been mis-characterized in the movies. He has been, there is no doubt about it. But the thing is, for us to love Ron, we have the books. We have every single word written about him, that shows us all his flaws, his weaknesses and despite all of that his absolutely adorable and humanly good side, which makes most girls yearn for a Ron in real life (*cough*). I think its quite difficult, to sketch such a non white/black character effectively on screen. You cannot do it with the limited amount of time you have to develop each characters story. i agree, they should not give his lines to hermione, and in that effect they perhaps could have atleast highlighted his loyalty and passion if nothing else. Oh well. i think its the entire lead boy lead girl steal the show thing. But despite that I think, Grint has done quite well for himself. he has quite a huge following for the Ron he plays, and another guy with that kind of material could not have probably managed as well.

As for the chemistry. I think Dan/Emma (atleast now, not during the earlier poa-gof days) have a very very comfortable, brother/sister vibe. I mean, have you seen the two interact? Its so comfortable and friendly. With rupert on the other hand, she is comfortable (after all she has grown up with him over the last 10 years) ofcourse, but there is something that is not quite the same. Either its tension (on his part, or hers too sometimes i feel), or just genuine streal of awkwardness, I dont know. I feel they bring out Ron/Hermione quite well on screen, but in every such scene, they try a little too hard to ensure that their own equation is not reflected and its more like Ron/Hermione. With Dan/Emma there is no such tension, as they can be as they are off the set, because thats exactly how Harry and Hermione are. I am not suggesting that something is going on between rupert and emma, all I am saying is, that when you play the lead romantic couple over a span of ten years, and you are young kids, you sometimes just dont know what part of your equation is being reflected on screen. Hope that made sense :).

And as for Jo. I was mega disappointed when she made that statement about how she thought there were two "charged" moments between Harry and Hermione in the books. I don't believe for a second that she wrote them as that. Even for a second. I mean read the moments she mentioned, not an iota of a hint. I don't know why she said that, maybe Kloves made her believe that its possible. But like I said, just because its possible doesn't mean it holds true for everyone (especially for two characters that are created by someone else and who decides their possibilities).

PHEW.
:)

I appreciate the compliment and the work you put into your post.

I also agree that there is a vibe of confidence btw Harry and Hermione in the movies. Unfortunately that vibe is missing btw Harry and Ron IMHO. That is one of the things that throws off the balance in the trio in the movies. In the books Harry confides in Ron alot more than you see in the movies so that starting in POA Ron gets shunted (intentionally) to the background so that Hermione can take Ron's place as Harry's best friend. IMHO.

Also, the comfort btw Dan and Emma on screen reflects both thier characters and their real personalities. They seem to be close friends. But Rupert and Emma seem just as close. The discomfort I think you see is intentional acting b\c of the character's own discomfort at their own feelings for each other. This is first brought out in COS at the end of the movie where Hermone doesn't hug Ron after hugging Harry b\c she and Ron have discrete romantic feelings for each other. The director said so in an interview.

I think Emma and Rupert intentionally kept up this appearance of "discomfort" to portray Ron's and Hermione's discomfort at their own romantic feelings for each other. You can see this even in DH1 (and the book) when Hermione hits Ron after he comes back. Instead of being happy that Ron is back Hermione focuses on her anger b\c she's afraid she would lose control if she let out her real feelings IMHO. And neither are ready for that.

Of course Emma and Rupert's proclaimed discomfort at anticipating shooting the "kiss" may either be a publicity stunt...or a reflection of the same feelings mirrored in Hermione and Ron. :rotfl: (But that part is really none of our business.)

Oh so is that why people think that there is no chemistry between Ron and Hermione because of their discomfort. That is the whole point of the discomfort. It is like the awkwardness of touching someone you like whereas if you didn't like them then there would be no awkwardness. I have never understood what people meant when they said there was no chemistry but i guess i can see how people might see awkward scenes as some sort of lack of chemistry. I disagree completely that those scenes are lack of chemistry though. Flirting is half awkwardness.

I think Emma and Rupert intentionally kept up this appearance of "discomfort" to portray Ron's and Hermione's discomfort at their own romantic feelings for each other. You can see this even in DH1 (and the book) when Hermione hits Ron after he comes back. Instead of being happy that Ron is back Hermione focuses on her anger b\c she's afraid she would lose control if she let out her real feelings IMHO. And neither are ready for that.


Actually, I thought the opposite. In the book, Heremione is truly angry with Ron...he left even though she ran after him, calling & pleading for him to come back -- which Ron admits he did hear but left anyway. In my opinion, Hermione is truly upset with him, and it has nothing to do with her personal feelings for him. I thought the movie captured that perfectly.

The problem is that in the books Ron's fears about Harry and Hermione are supposed to be completely unfounded and entirely in his head. In the movies though i think his fear has more justification as clearly in the movies Harry does have feelings for Hermione that are not quite that of a brother and a sister.

The fact that Ron's fears are justified in the movies just irks me because it completely destroys the point of Ron's fears being solely about him and his insecurities and instead made it so Ron's fears were at least partly justified.

Good point. I think that is why they cut the line about Harry loving Hermione like sister after destroying the locket. That apparently was in the script.

That would just be gross if Harry was willing to make a pass at his "sister". :no:

Actually, I thought the opposite. In the book, Heremione is truly angry with Ron...he left even though she ran after him, calling & pleading for him to come back -- which Ron admits he did hear but left anyway. In my opinion, Hermione is truly upset with him, and it has nothing to do with her personal feelings for him. I thought the movie captured that perfectly.

Hermione did have a right to be angry, but so did Harry but he didn't give Ron a hard time. Maybe if Harry threw Hermione in a pond and Ron saved her then Ron would have got his kiss then instead of later. :lol:

But seriously, when Ron came to the tent Hermione had to take a moment to stare at him before she decided how to react. And she picked anger over joy, IMHO.

Indeed, that little scene where Hermione gives Ron "what-for" and Ron explaining himself is one of my favorites. It ranks up there with the graveyard scene IMHO.

Good point. I think that is why they cut the line about Harry loving Hermione like sister after destroying the locket. That apparently was in the script.

That would just be gross if Harry was willing to make a pass at his "sister". :no:

Athough quite a few people here seem to think there's nothing romantic at all about the dancing scene, that it was just between friends. It's similar to Hermione putting her head on Harry's shoulder at the gravesite in Godric's Hollow, not romantic...she hesitates because she doesn't want to intrude on his grief, but decides he needs comforting. So they could have left the lines in the movie....but as they never addressed Ron's insecurity issues during the movies, that would've been one more unexplained thing to confuse non-readers.

I think Yates shall be "fired & flushed" :blush: if he doesn't have a most passionate, hottest scene yet, between Ron & Hermione in DH2. ;) Otherwise, all we ever saw were the sparks of volatility, yes, love-swings & practicing a cute tune on the piano. :shrug:

A HP coffee klatsch with your mind. :love: Though I will alternate the ongoing superb conversations with Ethiopian roast or Mocha cafe' & chocolate croissant or Scottish Breakfast tea & a currant scone. And you? :relax: :)

I don't think DH2 has any moment other than the kiss, and a bit of hand holding. The focus of the second film is going to be the battle I think, and Snape of course :). And a nod to the mods, and we are removing coffee steam from this board :).

I appreciate the compliment and the work you put into your post.

I also agree that there is a vibe of confidence btw Harry and Hermione in the movies. Unfortunately that vibe is missing btw Harry and Ron IMHO. That is one of the things that throws off the balance in the trio in the movies. In the books Harry confides in Ron alot more than you see in the movies so that starting in POA Ron gets shunted (intentionally) to the background so that Hermione can take Ron's place as Harry's best friend. IMHO.

Also, the comfort btw Dan and Emma on screen reflects both thier characters and their real personalities. They seem to be close friends. But Rupert and Emma seem just as close. The discomfort I think you see is intentional acting b\c of the character's own discomfort at their own feelings for each other. This is first brought out in COS at the end of the movie where Hermone doesn't hug Ron after hugging Harry b\c she and Ron have discrete romantic feelings for each other. The director said so in an interview.

I think Emma and Rupert intentionally kept up this appearance of "discomfort" to portray Ron's and Hermione's discomfort at their own romantic feelings for each other. You can see this even in DH1 (and the book) when Hermione hits Ron after he comes back. Instead of being happy that Ron is back Hermione focuses on her anger b\c she's afraid she would lose control if she let out her real feelings IMHO. And neither are ready for that.

Of course Emma and Rupert's proclaimed discomfort at anticipating shooting the "kiss" may either be a publicity stunt...or a reflection of the same feelings mirrored in Hermione and Ron. :rotfl: (But that part is really none of our business.)

Yes, I totally agree with your view on Ron and Harrys' friendship in the movies. While in the books it has always been in focus, in the movies they tend to concentrate more on the harry and hermione friendship. I hate that they messed up the absolutely beautiful Harry/Ron moment when he comes back, ie when they hug after he destroys the Horcrux and the dilogue that ensues in the book. Even the moment where Ron says he knows why Bumbledore ( :D, its a typo but I feel like leaving it :D) gave him the deluminator and Harry is all cheesy friend :D. I suppose that might also be because the director assumes that since in movies, you actually see them together all the time, the three of them, he doesn't need to establish the closeness with actual subtle moments. Since it isn't a romantic focal point, and something most people will not actively look out for, it falls in the background.

I understand that Ron/Hermione have the initial discomfort with one another with respect to their own feelings for each other and thats what the actors are aiming at, but I think later on in the books, its not discomfort so much as unstated understanding. Especially in DH, in the book SO much of the love between them is palpable without them saying a single cheesy word to one another, or without the tools of jealous friend etc that Jo used in the previous books. Its just simple mutual under stated understanding. They achieved it a little in the movie (DH1), in some scenes which focus on them, but not as much in the scenes where their relationship is not being hinted at. Except, in contradiction to my earlier post, where I whined about their lack of intimacy in background scenes (as I just mentioned here too), I saw DH again, and I have to say Emma atleast totally has that going. She always treats Ron with tenderness that is kind of adorable. And that one scene, where Ron is kissing the Cattermole woman just when he transforms back, the camera is on the two of them, but you just about catch Emma/Hermione's reaction, and its splendid :).

I don't think the actors discomfort with respect to the kiss is a marketing tactic (it would be more marketable if they weren't all she is my sister and he is my brother, no? I mean the audience feeds off the lead pair being enthusiastic about the romantic scenes), and I don't know if its their own 'feelings' for one another. Though, now that I think about it, neither had such qualms about their other kissing scenes with other actors (Rupert in Cherrybomb, emma in her ad campaigns and Dan (did she express the same apprehensions?)). Why any boy would have a problem kissing Emma Watson is beyond me :D. And vice versa.

Actually, I thought the opposite. In the book, Heremione is truly angry with Ron...he left even though she ran after him, calling & pleading for him to come back -- which Ron admits he did hear but left anyway. In my opinion, Hermione is truly upset with him, and it has nothing to do with her personal feelings for him. I thought the movie captured that perfectly.

I think the fact that in the book Hermione refused to look at Ron in the eye when he returned showed that while Hermione was furious with Ron she was worried that if she looked into his eye she would forgive him. I think had Hermione not been in love with Ron then she wouldn't have had a problem looking him in the eye in that scene.


Yes, I totally agree with your view on Ron and Harrys' friendship in the movies. While in the books it has always been in focus, in the movies they tend to concentrate more on the harry and hermione friendship. I hate that they messed up the absolutely beautiful Harry/Ron moment when he comes back, ie when they hug after he destroys the Horcrux and the dilogue that ensues in the book. Even the moment where Ron says he knows why Bumbledore ( :D, its a typo but I feel like leaving it :D) gave him the deluminator and Harry is all cheesy friend :D. I suppose that might also be because the director assumes that since in movies, you actually see them together all the time, the three of them, he doesn't need to establish the closeness with actual subtle moments. Since it isn't a romantic focal point, and something most people will not actively look out for, it falls in the background.


The thing is, if Yates filmed and included the line

"She's like my sister," he went on. "I love her like a sister and I reckon that she feels the same way about me. It's always been like that. I thought you knew."

then all this controversy would have been lessened significantly. The line should have been in the movie as it was extremely important to Ron's character arc, a arc that had been in the books (and movies) right from the first scene Ron was ever in. I think it is almost unforgivable that this line from Harry was not included in the movie.

I think the fact that in the book Hermione refused to look at Ron in the eye when he returned showed that while Hermione was furious with Ron she was worried that if she looked into his eye she would forgive him. I think had Hermione not been in love with Ron then she wouldn't have had a problem looking him in the eye in that scene.



The thing is, if Yates filmed and included the line

"She's like my sister," he went on. "I love her like a sister and I reckon that she feels the same way about me. It's always been like that. I thought you knew."

then all this controversy would have been lessened significantly. The line should have been in the movie as it was extremely important to Ron's character arc, a arc that had been in the books (and movies) right from the first scene Ron was ever in. I think it is almost unforgivable that this line from Harry was not included in the movie.

I think when Ron comes back, Hermione feels a surge of emotions and they could have, like you said, taken any form, that of joy or anger. I don't think that anger was a cover for the love though. I mean, she was terribly terribly upset with me, and I think she needed for him to know just how much. That however does not take away from the fact that she was absolutely relieved that he had returned, and I think she didn't want to betray that emotion while she was being all pissy with him :). She even tries to make him feel all horrible in the book with the "tell us how you found us so next time we can guard better against people we dont want" (I thought there she crossed the line to being a little mean in a scene that was otherwise just fantastic :) ). though if you think about r/hrs relationship, they have never really held back have they? :)

I have never ever understood why the sister line was left out. I just don't get it. There has to be a reason. Its not like they can claim that it was an insignificant line, considering people discussed it so much after the book came out. I think its just pandering to all sections of the audience, even the h/hr shippers. Or perhaps because they had just previously added a hint of tension to the h/hr friendship spectrum.

I think when Ron comes back, Hermione feels a surge of emotions and they could have, like you said, taken any form, that of joy or anger. I don't think that anger was a cover for the love though. I mean, she was terribly terribly upset with me, and I think she needed for him to know just how much. That however does not take away from the fact that she was absolutely relieved that he had returned, and I think she didn't want to betray that emotion while she was being all pissy with him :). She even tries to make him feel all horrible in the book with the "tell us how you found us so next time we can guard better against people we dont want" (I thought there she crossed the line to being a little mean in a scene that was otherwise just fantastic :) ). though if you think about r/hrs relationship, they have never really held back have they? :)


Hermione was a bit mean in that scene but i do think it was somewhat justified given the information she had at her disposal (as Hermione had no idea what the locket had done to Ron.

I tend to think that Hermione refused to look at Ron in the eye during that scene because like you said she was going through a lot of very complex emotions including probably wanting to hit him and hug him at the same time. She was beyond relieved that Ron was back and that he was okay but she didn't want him to know that and i think Hermione was worried that if she looked at him in the eye she would instantly forgive him and at that stage Hermione didn't want to forgive Ron. Hermione's feelings for Ron made him leaving that much more painful and her feelings for him would have made his return that much more emotionally complex as well (much more complex than it would have been if she was not in love with Ron).



I have never ever understood why the sister line was left out. I just don't get it. There has to be a reason. Its not like they can claim that it was an insignificant line, considering people discussed it so much after the book came out. I think its just pandering to all sections of the audience, even the h/hr shippers. Or perhaps because they had just previously added a hint of tension to the h/hr friendship spectrum.

Harry saying that Hermione was like a sister to him was a huge line in the context of Ron's character arc and the only reason i can think of that they didn't include the line is because the film makers didn't want Harry to view Hermione as a sister. They wanted to keep the possibility open that Harry has romantic and sexual feelings for Hermione.

Its wrong because that line is so important in relation to not only Ron and Hermione but Harry as well as it clearly defines how Harry and Hermione view each other and it is also the first time that Harry vocally acknowledges Ron's feelings for Hermione. It was Harry's moment to tell Ron that he knew about Ron's feelings for Hermione and he wanted Ron and Hermione to get together and to be happy.

Hermione was a bit mean in that scene but i do think it was somewhat justified given the information she had at her disposal (as Hermione had no idea what the locket had done to Ron.

I tend to think that Hermione refused to look at Ron in the eye during that scene because like you said she was going through a lot of very complex emotions including probably wanting to hit him and hug him at the same time. She was beyond relieved that Ron was back and that he was okay but she didn't want him to know that and i think Hermione was worried that if she looked at him in the eye she would instantly forgive him and at that stage Hermione didn't want to forgive Ron. Hermione's feelings for Ron made him leaving that much more painful and her feelings for him would have made his return that much more emotionally complex as well (much more complex than it would have been if she was not in love with Ron).




Harry saying that Hermione was like a sister to him was a huge line in the context of Ron's character arc and the only reason i can think of that they didn't include the line is because the film makers didn't want Harry to view Hermione as a sister. They wanted to keep the possibility open that Harry has romantic and sexual feelings for Hermione.

Its wrong because that line is so important in relation to not only Ron and Hermione but Harry as well as it clearly defines how Harry and Hermione view each other and it is also the first time that Harry vocally acknowledges Ron's feelings for Hermione. It was Harry's moment to tell Ron that he knew about Ron's feelings for Hermione and he wanted Ron and Hermione to get together and to be happy.

Yes, you describe the scene beautifully I think. Hermione herself in general is such a complex character, add to that the warring emotions, and I think the result was actually so endearing :). I do think she felt totally betrayed by Ron (like you said, she didn't know the Horcrux had any role to play in Ron leaving them) and thus the hurt outweighed the relief she would have felt at seeing him. I think she also knows how much Ron loves her, especially when he tries explaining everything, I think she realises that seeing her again would mean a lot to him too. So a part of his 'punishment' as such, was her not granting him the comfort he seeked from her. I felt that it was an intentional thing on her part, and not just reactionary. Especially considering she continued to be angry with him for days after that. Which makes me wonder why these two couldn't have told her what happened with the Horcrux. I mean its not like its a mystery, how ron and hermione feel about eachother, and by then even Harry had acknowledged their feelings for eachother (the sister line). I don't know why Ron just didn't tell her.

I don't think they want to keep the idea of Harry/Hermione open anymore. I just think they thought it would confuse the audience given that they had hinted at something in the dance just moments before that. While in retrospect I am sure given the reaction the dance has had the director might have contemplated that he should have kept the line in. and given more credit to the intelligence of the audience. It would have in fact clarified Harry's stand on the entire thing easily. The people who saw the dance as just a friend moment would be ok with it, and the people who saw it as something more would think ah ok so maybe that was just a stray moment in time.

Yes, you describe the scene beautifully I think. Hermione herself in general is such a complex character, add to that the warring emotions, and I think the result was actually so endearing :). I do think she felt totally betrayed by Ron (like you said, she didn't know the Horcrux had any role to play in Ron leaving them) and thus the hurt outweighed the relief she would have felt at seeing him. I think she also knows how much Ron loves her, especially when he tries explaining everything, I think she realises that seeing her again would mean a lot to him too. So a part of his 'punishment' as such, was her not granting him the comfort he seeked from her. I felt that it was an intentional thing on her part, and not just reactionary. Especially considering she continued to be angry with him for days after that. Which makes me wonder why these two couldn't have told her what happened with the Horcrux. I mean its not like its a mystery, how ron and hermione feel about eachother, and by then even Harry had acknowledged their feelings for eachother (the sister line). I don't know why Ron just didn't tell her.


At this stage i think there is still a bit of doubt in both Ron's and Hermione's minds about their feelings for each other. I think they are 90% sure their feelings are going to be returned but that 10% is still worrying them because if one of them admit their feelings and the other doesn't return those feelings then essentially their friendship would be over.

I think it was Hermione's natural instinct to forgive Ron, she desperately wanted to forgive Ron and i think it took all of her mental strength not to forgive Ron. She wanted to be angry at him and she wanted to make him suffer for what he did but i think Hermione was afraid that if she looked in his eye that mental strength she had to not forgive Ron would have disappeared. I think it would have taken a lot of effort on Hermione's part to stay angry at Ron.

As for Ron and Harry not telling Hermione what happened with the horcrux i do think one day Ron will tell Hermione exactly what happened but when Ron returned it wasn't the right time as Hermione wasn't in a great frame of mind. Plus there is still the small amount of doubt in Ron's head about Hermione's feelings for him.

I think it was at the Malfoy Manor when Hermione got the evidence she needed that Ron was indeed in love with her, that he shared her feelings as he tried to sacrifice himself when Bellatrix singled out Hermione and then he screamed her name while she was being tortured. It was the Malfoy Manor as well as Ron's actions as soon as they got to Shell Cottage that gave Hermione the confidence to kiss Ron later in the book.



I don't think they want to keep the idea of Harry/Hermione open anymore. I just think they thought it would confuse the audience given that they had hinted at something in the dance just moments before that. While in retrospect I am sure given the reaction the dance has had the director might have contemplated that he should have kept the line in. and given more credit to the intelligence of the audience. It would have in fact clarified Harry's stand on the entire thing easily. The people who saw the dance as just a friend moment would be ok with it, and the people who saw it as something more would think ah ok so maybe that was just a stray moment in time.

I really do think that the sister line was such a important line in the book that under no circumstances should it have been cut. It was a line that wrapped up a arc that had been going ever since around chapter 6 of the first book.

I don't think DH2 has any moment other than the kiss, and a bit of hand holding. The focus of the second film is going to be the battle I think, and Snape of course :). And a nod to the mods, and we are removing coffee steam from this board :).



Yes, I totally agree with your view on Ron and Harrys' friendship in the movies. While in the books it has always been in focus, in the movies they tend to concentrate more on the harry and hermione friendship. I hate that they messed up the absolutely beautiful Harry/Ron moment when he comes back, ie when they hug after he destroys the Horcrux and the dilogue that ensues in the book. Even the moment where Ron says he knows why Bumbledore ( :D, its a typo but I feel like leaving it :D) gave him the deluminator and Harry is all cheesy friend :D. I suppose that might also be because the director assumes that since in movies, you actually see them together all the time, the three of them, he doesn't need to establish the closeness with actual subtle moments. Since it isn't a romantic focal point, and something most people will not actively look out for, it falls in the background.

I understand that Ron/Hermione have the initial discomfort with one another with respect to their own feelings for each other and thats what the actors are aiming at, but I think later on in the books, its not discomfort so much as unstated understanding. Especially in DH, in the book SO much of the love between them is palpable without them saying a single cheesy word to one another, or without the tools of jealous friend etc that Jo used in the previous books. Its just simple mutual under stated understanding. They achieved it a little in the movie (DH1), in some scenes which focus on them, but not as much in the scenes where their relationship is not being hinted at. Except, in contradiction to my earlier post, where I whined about their lack of intimacy in background scenes (as I just mentioned here too), I saw DH again, and I have to say Emma atleast totally has that going. She always treats Ron with tenderness that is kind of adorable. And that one scene, where Ron is kissing the Cattermole woman just when he transforms back, the camera is on the two of them, but you just about catch Emma/Hermione's reaction, and its splendid :).

I don't think the actors discomfort with respect to the kiss is a marketing tactic (it would be more marketable if they weren't all she is my sister and he is my brother, no? I mean the audience feeds off the lead pair being enthusiastic about the romantic scenes), and I don't know if its their own 'feelings' for one another. Though, now that I think about it, neither had such qualms about their other kissing scenes with other actors (Rupert in Cherrybomb, emma in her ad campaigns and Dan (did she express the same apprehensions?)). Why any boy would have a problem kissing Emma Watson is beyond me :D. And vice versa.

You think they messed up the scene with Ron saying he knows why Dumbledore left him the deluminator? Why?

In the end, any scene is what you wish to see in it. A Ron-Hermione shipper is gonna see nothing romantic in the Dance scene. A H-Hr one sees something different. Ultimately, it comes down to what Dan & Emma & Yates were trying to show there, which it is revealed to be some light seduction and sexual tension for a more commercial aspect.

On a side note, i feel so alone here among so many of ya Ron-Hermione shippers ;) :(

At this stage i think there is still a bit of doubt in both Ron's and Hermione's minds about their feelings for each other. I think they are 90% sure their feelings are going to be returned but that 10% is still worrying them because if one of them admit their feelings and the other doesn't return those feelings then essentially their friendship would be over.

I think it was Hermione's natural instinct to forgive Ron, she desperately wanted to forgive Ron and i think it took all of her mental strength not to forgive Ron. She wanted to be angry at him and she wanted to make him suffer for what he did but i think Hermione was afraid that if she looked in his eye that mental strength she had to not forgive Ron would have disappeared. I think it would have taken a lot of effort on Hermione's part to stay angry at Ron.

As for Ron and Harry not telling Hermione what happened with the horcrux i do think one day Ron will tell Hermione exactly what happened but when Ron returned it wasn't the right time as Hermione wasn't in a great frame of mind. Plus there is still the small amount of doubt in Ron's head about Hermione's feelings for him.

I think it was at the Malfoy Manor when Hermione got the evidence she needed that Ron was indeed in love with her, that he shared her feelings as he tried to sacrifice himself when Bellatrix singled out Hermione and then he screamed her name while she was being tortured. It was the Malfoy Manor as well as Ron's actions as soon as they got to Shell Cottage that gave Hermione the confidence to kiss Ron later in the book.




I really do think that the sister line was such a important line in the book that under no circumstances should it have been cut. It was a line that wrapped up a arc that had been going ever since around chapter 6 of the first book.

I think it was pretty clear that Ron and Hermione knew how they both felt about each other right from the start of DH. They were so coupley in the beginning, and I doubt that someone like Hermione, who is so acutely observant of human behavior could miss out on the unspoken but oh so obvious love coming from Ron. I am sure she knew in HBP too, but the Lavender thing really confused her i think (because once again she didn't know what precipitated that reaction from Ron), and I am certain that they sorted that out before DH started. Hence, I think, it was only for plot purposes that JK didn't have ron or harry mention the horcrux thing to hermione after ron came back. That would have meant that Hermione would have to forgive Ron, and I am guessing that the reveal would have made her want to kiss ron like mad. But that would have taken away from the trio dynamics that was required for the remaining part of the book, because a couple and a friend is not the same as a trio.

That said, yes I agree, I think it takes such a huge effort to be angry with anyone you love, and add to that the fact that she hadn't seen him in weeks, I am pretty sure it would have been insanely tough for her to pull that off, and only a genuine feeling of hurt and anger could have sustained that reaction. I don't understand how Harry didn't tell her about the Horcrux either, unless he felt that it would get awkward or he thought that it would be interfering into what was clearly r/hrs issue. The one reason I think Ron might have considered for not telling her is, that in his mind she would get even more mad, to think that he considered that her and Harry have something between them (though I personally believe that given her character she would have launched on him a kiss attack then and there).

You think they messed up the scene with Ron saying he knows why Dumbledore left him the deluminator? Why?

Because, in the book, Ron says, "He knew I would have left you guys", and Harry says, "No he would have known you would have always wanted to come back." There is no such dialogue in the movie.

[QUOTE=v_siddhesh;5728282]In the end, any scene is what you wish to see in it. A Ron-Hermione shipper is gonna see nothing romantic in the Dance scene. A H-Hr one sees something different. Ultimately, it comes down to what Dan & Emma & Yates were trying to show there, which it is revealed to be some light seduction and sexual tension for a more commercial aspect.

I am a R/Hr shipper and I saw the tension they were trying to suggest in the first viewing itself. In fact I thought it was very obvious. And everyone in the hall I was in noticed too, because there were SO many loud gasps when the dance ends and they have that small moment. Though totally agree with the commercial aspect point :).

Athough quite a few people here seem to think there's nothing romantic at all about the dancing scene, that it was just between friends. It's similar to Hermione putting her head on Harry's shoulder at the gravesite in Godric's Hollow, not romantic...she hesitates because she doesn't want to intrude on his grief, but decides he needs comforting. So they could have left the lines in the movie....but as they never addressed Ron's insecurity issues during the movies, that would've been one more unexplained thing to confuse non-readers.

They do a bit in GOF, don't they? "Harry Potter's stupid friend" or whatever Ron says

I have never ever understood why the sister line was left out. I just don't get it. There has to be a reason.
My guess is mainly from Harry experiencing the Horcrux scene with Ron. H&H appear naked together kissing & caressing, so it was mutually understood between them about Ron's insecurities. I think it freaked Harry out almost as much as it did Ron, since he thought Ron was maybe going to hit him with the sword. Harry ducks & covers as Ron swings down hard with the sword.

When two guys go through something like that I think it bonds them & releases all that pent-up sexual tension about H&H. Both Ron & Harry think 'that' is over, imo. Hermione clearly rejected whatever that "look" was that Harry gave her. Harry didn't have to tell Hermione or Ron at that point. Both understood.

The audience is another matter, which goes back to the Director's intent.

My guess is mainly from Harry experiencing the Horcrux scene with Ron. H&H appear naked together kissing & caressing, so it was mutually understood between them about Ron's insecurities. I think it freaked Harry out almost as much as it did Ron, since he thought Ron was maybe going to hit him with the sword. Harry ducks & covers as Ron swings down hard with the sword.

When two guys go through something like that I think it bonds them & releases all that pent-up sexual tension about H&H. Both Ron & Harry think 'that' is over, imo. Hermione clearly rejected whatever that "look" was that Harry gave her. Harry didn't have to tell Hermione or Ron at that point. Both understood.

The audience is another matter, which goes back to the Director's intent.

No, I don't think it sufficed that Ron struck down the locket, so since symbolically his insecurities were over, they didn't need to be addressed by Harry. I am sure by the time Ron returned, he himself would have thought that he was wrong in assuming that there might be something between the other two, but it still needed to be said by Harry, considering he just saw that it was something that bothered Ron so much (to the point where he actually abandoned them). Plus any friend, after seeing that incident, would atleast address the issue. Its so stupid to just go on without any sort of acknowledgement of whatever just happened. Harry/Ron is the most screwed up equation in the movie I think (scrunches face).

No, I don't think it sufficed that Ron struck down the locket, so since symbolically his insecurities were over, they didn't need to be addressed by Harry. I am sure by the time Ron returned, he himself would have thought that he was wrong in assuming that there might be something between the other two, but it still needed to be said by Harry, considering he just saw that it was something that bothered Ron so much (to the point where he actually abandoned them). Plus any friend, after seeing that incident, would atleast address the issue. Its so stupid to just go on without any sort of acknowledgement of whatever just happened. Harry/Ron is the most screwed up equation in the movie I think (scrunches face).

Exactly. Harry just saw what Ron's greatest insecurity was and that insecurity directly involved him (Harry). It just doesn't make sense that Harry wouldn't address this because he knows with a few sentences he could make Ron feel a lot better.

Its like Harry thought to himself "well i know what Ron's greatest fears are now but even though i can help relieve his greatest insecurity i am going to keep quiet".

Exactly. Harry just saw what Ron's greatest insecurity was and that insecurity directly involved him (Harry). It just doesn't make sense that Harry wouldn't address this because he knows with a few sentences he could make Ron feel a lot better.

Its like Harry thought to himself "well i know what Ron's greatest fears are now but even though i can help relieve his greatest insecurity i am going to keep quiet".
It is also possible movie Ron figured this out on his own. Sometimes there are things better left unsaid.

It is also possible movie Ron figured this out on his own. Sometimes there are things better left unsaid.

Sometimes that is true. I however don't believe this is one of those occasions. It really was a line that should have been said.

In the end, any scene is what you wish to see in it. A Ron-Hermione shipper is gonna see nothing romantic in the Dance scene. A H-Hr one sees something different. Ultimately, it comes down to what Dan & Emma & Yates were trying to show there, which it is revealed to be some light seduction and sexual tension for a more commercial aspect.

I don't think that this is true. I have always been a Ron/Hermione fan ever since the beginning and i definitely think there was tension in the dance scene.

I am a R/Hr shipper and I saw the tension they were trying to suggest in the first viewing itself. In fact I thought it was very obvious. And everyone in the hall I was in noticed too, because there were SO many loud gasps when the dance ends and they have that small moment. Though totally agree with the commercial aspect point :).

This was exactly my experience in the theater the first time. There were loud gasps and murmurs across the whole theater the moment that Harry looked at Hermione and then again right at the end of the scene when Harry and Hermione looked at each other. I think people were surprised at the tension but they saw tension in the scene.

I was wondering for people who didn't see tension what their experience was in the theater the first time? Did you notice the crowds reaction?

Sometimes that is true. I however don't believe this is one of those occasions. It really was a line that should have been said.
As for that, the proof will be in the pudding won't it? I think there may be an operative difference between viewers wanting something to happen and the plot requiring it. Unless it comes up again that Ron is jealous of Harry where Hermione is concerned, it won't strictly need to be clarified any further. Part 1 was chock full o' Ron and Hermione content, really, so their story can still get where it's going without necessarily worrying about Harry.

The reason I don't believe the film requires Harry to say anything is vague, but I think it stands up: Ron seemed to have realized at the last second that if the locket was telling him something, there was a better than likely chance it was completely untrue.

As for that, the proof will be in the pudding won't it? I think there may be an operative difference between viewers wanting something to happen and the plot requiring it. Unless it comes up again that Ron is jealous of Harry where Hermione is concerned, it won't strictly need to be clarified any further. Part 1 was chock full o' Ron and Hermione content, really, so their story can still get where it's going without necessarily worrying about Harry.

The reason I don't believe the film requires Harry to say anything is vague, but I think it stands up: Ron seemed to have realized at the last second that if the locket was telling him something, there was a better than likely chance it was completely untrue.

The problem is that they way it is shown Ron's fears could still be true. Harry sees what Ron's fear is and he never denies it. He never tells Ron that he has no romantic feelings for Hermione and as a result to Ron at least his fears could still be true.

At this point I wonder whether I'd actually liked to see a portrait of lives, which are lead perfectly reasonable. For me it's more important to see realistic settings - since the films do achieve this for me including all the sometimes not at all reasonable actions of teenagers, I'm very fine with the outcome.

I think the scene is slightly out of character which is why people want to see it as if there is nothing there.

Odd sentiment. I don't think that's how I feel or look at it.

I wish the sister line or something like it had been used--I had a little free-floating anxiety waiting for something to be said, but, heck, I had that feeling through about the last half hour of PoA. ;) :shrug:

I didn't see a big reaction either way when I saw the movie.

I've seen a couple different comments from Dan on the scene which conflict a little on what exactly they were trying to get across, but it seems clear that the director wanted to show at least a little will-they-or-won't-they between H/Hr. There could be a couple different motivations for that, listed from worst to best intentions:

a) Money. He wanted to keep the H/Hr shippers happy and play up the commercial aspects of a soap opera storyline for non-book-readers.

b) Personal reasons. Some interviews have suggested H/Hr is his favored couple and wanted to give them as many moments as possible before the requisite book ending.

c) He truly felt that the audience, especially movie-only types, based on movie stereotypes, would really be expecting at least some exploration of the idea of some attraction between H/Hr, especially at the point when they are two lonely teenagers deserted in the woods for who knows how long, and didn't want to leave an unanswered question hanging in the minds of those viewers, so gave them the answer that, 'yeah, it crossed their minds for a fleeting moment as you'd expect but they quickly decided it was a no.'

I think it's interesting that a good number of the book-readers here have one of two strong reactions:

a) they think that any suggestion of this whatsoever is totally wrong, being a total diversion from the text,

or

b) despite whatever the director intended by some little look or hand motion, the Harry and Hermione in their minds shone through, and they saw nothing or almost nothing in the scene beyond two very close friends sharing an intimate but not romantic moment, (with a possible exception for some of a split second of something theoretical that perhaps flashed by, but immediately vanished forever and was hardly worth mentioning.)

Yes, I totally agree with your view on Ron and Harrys' friendship in the movies. While in the books it has always been in focus, in the movies they tend to concentrate more on the harry and hermione friendship. I hate that they messed up the absolutely beautiful Harry/Ron moment when he comes back, ie when they hug after he destroys the Horcrux and the dilogue that ensues in the book. Even the moment where Ron says he knows why Bumbledore ( :D, its a typo but I feel like leaving it :D) gave him the deluminator and Harry is all cheesy friend :D. I suppose that might also be because the director assumes that since in movies, you actually see them together all the time, the three of them, he doesn't need to establish the closeness with actual subtle moments. Since it isn't a romantic focal point, and something most people will not actively look out for, it falls in the background.

I understand that Ron/Hermione have the initial discomfort with one another with respect to their own feelings for each other and thats what the actors are aiming at, but I think later on in the books, its not discomfort so much as unstated understanding. Especially in DH, in the book SO much of the love between them is palpable without them saying a single cheesy word to one another, or without the tools of jealous friend etc that Jo used in the previous books. Its just simple mutual under stated understanding. They achieved it a little in the movie (DH1), in some scenes which focus on them, but not as much in the scenes where their relationship is not being hinted at. Except, in contradiction to my earlier post, where I whined about their lack of intimacy in background scenes (as I just mentioned here too), I saw DH again, and I have to say Emma atleast totally has that going. She always treats Ron with tenderness that is kind of adorable. And that one scene, where Ron is kissing the Cattermole woman just when he transforms back, the camera is on the two of them, but you just about catch Emma/Hermione's reaction, and its splendid :).

Totally agree.

When I'm directing a play I try to dig out every ounce of humor and drama and nuance I can find in order to make the audience's experience as deep as possible.

I feel the people who made the movies went the easy route concerning character development and dramatic options (and wasted alot of the acting talent they had at their disposal in the process).


Why any boy would have a problem kissing Emma Watson is beyond me :D. And vice versa.

:rotfl: ;)


Edit: Y'know, with all this effort to defend what I think are attempts to denigrate Ron's character in HP, I think my favorite characters are Neville and Luna. Go figure....:lol:

As for the dance scene and what the actions of Harry and Hermione mean...

I may be old fashioned, but in the older movies I grew up with removing an article of clothing or jewelry from another character in an intimate situation was often symbolic of disrobement. And a girl standing close to a man and looking down was often accepted as flirting or shyness at the intimate attention of a man.



I just watched this scene again. And ITA with the symbolism. I think the key word is that there are two intimate moments--when he takes the locket off, and at the end of the dance when they stand there and look at each other. Because of the closeness of how they are standing, it is a very intimate moment. (I'm sorry, but it's hard to argue that those moments aren't intimate given how physically close they are.) The dance itself--for me is definitely two friends trying to forget their misery (although I'd argue that Hermione isn't forgetting anything and that the effort is all on Harry's part). I don't see any sexual tension during the dance at all--for me the charged moments are the ones I described.

Interesting how much discussion this one tiny scene had generated, though!:wow:

No, I don't think it sufficed that Ron struck down the locket, so since symbolically his insecurities were over, they didn't need to be addressed by Harry. I am sure by the time Ron returned, he himself would have thought that he was wrong in assuming that there might be something between the other two, but it still needed to be said by Harry, considering he just saw that it was something that bothered Ron so much (to the point where he actually abandoned them). Plus any friend, after seeing that incident, would atleast address the issue. Its so stupid to just go on without any sort of acknowledgement of whatever just happened. Harry/Ron is the most screwed up equation in the movie I think (scrunches face).
Women! :lol: Ok, pretty ladies, girls, females! :D

This is a battle of the sexes perception issue, imo! All females (should) know that most boys, 16yo, do NOT have vast verbal skills, nor do boys enjoy being wordy & gossipy about their insecurities or love interests either. We boys/men are into non-verbal manhood at 16yo about these issues, sorry.

Furthermore, do to the 'fact' (yes, it is statistically proven) 16yo boys are well behind girls at that age in verbal skills, AND this is definitely proven out, imo, with BOTH Harry & Ron, quite typical, as young teen boys. Ron is a lot of grunt, yeah, joking around, feel'in it non-verbally kind of guy. Harry is a bit "wooden" and very predictably teen-boy rash & can flair-up a bit out of control at times. But he is very close to Ron in these non-verbal & verbal respects too except that Harry is much more tightly wound & can unwind faster than Ron. Ron is more at ease and accepting than the Harry that is more rule bound (to his cause).

Regardless, neither Harry or Ron are exceptional in the verbal skills category. I doubt either would do well in a debate club/class. These two are very typical immature teen boys that often get into "trouble" together despite their good attributes.

Plus, I am trying to be honest & well connected to the real EMOTIONAL events that just took place: Ron rescuing Harry from certain death, imo, and then he heroically destroys the "indestructible" Horcrux after Harry & Ron witness H&H being "naked" & kissing & caressing.

Sorry, you girls/women will gossip & go on verbally expecting boys to share intimate issues 'verbally' AFTER this just happened vs far less verbal YET HIGHLY non-verbal 16yo boys!!! Come on! Seriously. All in my opinion. This IS definitely a "guy thing", imo, and this IS why you girls/women aren't getting it. Ron & Harry are too close to even have to say much, especially, in a movie where 'the result' IS seen to be believed. Keep it real and keep in mind these two guys were just shot off the Richter scale of the highest adrenaline rushes they ever shared together in such a personal context. That emotional rush that went to the darkest possible outcomes just swamped & overwhelmed their verbal "wauntingness" to use words or details. Teen guys do NOT want to talk about it IF they don't have to. This is a movie & RL sensing I'm doing now, & not a book's requirements to pass knowledge on by words alone.

Yes, in the book without the movie's non-verbal visual communication abilities I can agree it was brilliant for Harry to say that line, but, as a guy, I completely & totally & honestly understand WHY Harry did NOT have to say that to Ron in the movie. The movie is perfect for these two boys, because it gives them the range they need to prove their non-verbal connection & VERY typical way that boy teens share a deep friendship.

I KNOW. I totally related having been that boy-teen myself. Had Ron done that for me upon his return I could do those scenes exactly as Harry did AND KNOW Ron understands me perfectly well. I really don't have to explain it to him in girl terminology. Imo. We're non-verbal grunt & yeah & emotional guys w/o the wordiness that girls seem to desire & need soooo much. :elaugh: :D

But, PLEASE do set me straight if you still think I'm mistaken. :blush:

P.S. I do imagine Ron & Harry will talk about it decades down the road on a beautiful crystal-clear starlit night with warm "wandfires" burning & a few butterbeers with real alcohol or firefiend-whisky... yeah, it will be reminisced & warmly loved & shared in private FAR AWAY from ANY of the female kind! The healing of time will happen in its fullness by completing this circle & arc of time. :)

Women! :lol: Ok, pretty ladies, girls, females! :D

This is a battle of the sexes perception issue, imo! All females (should) know that most boys, 16yo, do NOT have vast verbal skills, nor do boys enjoy being wordy & gossipy about their insecurities or love interests either. We boys/men are into non-verbal manhood at 16yo about these issues, sorry.

Furthermore, do to the 'fact' (yes, it is statistically proven) 16yo boys are well behind girls at that age in verbal skills, AND this is definitely proven out, imo, with BOTH Harry & Ron, quite typical, as young teen boys. Ron is a lot of grunt, yeah, joking around, feel'in it non-verbally kind of guy. Harry is a bit "wooden" and very predictably teen-boy rash & can flair-up a bit out of control at times. But he is very close to Ron in these non-verbal & verbal respects too except that Harry is much more tightly wound & can unwind faster than Ron. Ron is more at ease and accepting than the Harry that is more rule bound (to his cause).

Regardless, neither Harry or Ron are exceptional in the verbal skills category. I doubt either would do well in a debate club/class. These two are very typical immature teen boys that often get into "trouble" together despite their good attributes.

Plus, I am trying to be honest & well connected to the real EMOTIONAL events that just took place: Ron rescuing Harry from certain death, imo, and then he heroically destroys the "indestructible" Horcrux after Harry & Ron witness H&H being "naked" & kissing & caressing.

Sorry, you girls/women will gossip & go on verbally expecting boys to share intimate issues 'verbally' AFTER this just happened vs far less verbal YET HIGHLY non-verbal 16yo boys!!! Come on! Seriously. All in my opinion. This IS definitely a "guy thing", imo, and this IS why you girls/women aren't getting it. Ron & Harry are too close to even have to say much, especially, in a movie where 'the result' IS seen to be believed. Keep it real and keep in mind these two guys were just shot off the Richter scale of the highest adrenaline rushes they ever shared together in such a personal context. Teen guys do NOT want to talk about it IF they don't have to. This is a movie & RL sensing I'm doing now, & not a book's requirements to pass knowledge on by words alone.

Yes, in the book without the movie's non-verbal visual communication abilities I can agree it was brilliant for Harry to say that line, but, as a guy, I completely & totally & honestly understand WHY Harry did NOT have to say that to Ron in the movie. The movie is perfect for these two boys, because it gives them the range they need to prove their non-verbal connection & VERY typical way that boy teens share a deep friendship.

I KNOW. I totally related having been that teen myself. Had Ron done that for me upon his return I could do those scenes exactly as Harry did AND KNOW Ron understands me perfectly well. I really don't have to explain it to him in girl terminology. Imo. We're non-verbal grunt & yeah & emotional guys w/o the wordiness that girls seem to desire & need soooo much. :elaugh: :D

But, do set me straight if you still think I'm mistaken. :blush:

P.S. I do imagine Ron & Harry will talk about it decades down the road on a beautiful crystal-clear starlit night with warm "wandfires" burning & a few butterbeers with real alcohol or firefiend-whisky... yeah, it will be reminisced & warmly loved & shared in private FAR AWAY from ANY of the female kind! The healing of time will happen in its fullness by completing this circle & arc of time. :)

For sometime there, I thought your 16yo, was the characterization of boys at that age, and not 16 years old. You know. How boys are all pseudo cool, and missing g's in the end of their ing words, like that, yo. But then I was like :hmm:, and came back to my senses after a minor fit of chuckles.

ANYWAY :D. I think you flatter the fairer sex by bestowing on us the verbal finesse that you assume we possess. Believe me, emotions that are not trivial but deep rooted, are as difficult for women to talk about as they are for men. I mean there is definitely no gender bias when it comes to being open to confrontations, its more of an individualistic thing. I like how we explain a lot of the idiosyncratic behaviour of us humans by pulling the gender card, but I think in matters less frivolous its always the individual before the gender that they belong to.

Having said that, I understand that harry and ron are not very verbal about their emotions concerning the girls and their palpitations over the said girls (i really just felt like using that word :D). I mean, Ron never even directly tells Harry that he loves Hermione and neither does Harry every tell him about Ginny (but that is also because she is Rons sister, and that's just weird). And THAT is fine (strange in today's world actually), but the way Jo wrote these two, apart from thinking once or twice during the series why this wasn't addressed between the two boys, I never found it incredibly awkward (on a side note, if you remember, as a contrast though, we see Harry trying to talk to hermione about ron in HBP a couple of times and she just shoots him down). So as long as these minor admissions, even major ones are eliminated because we are chalking our boys up to be all wooden and easygoing, its fine.

BUT, the SILVER DOE is a complete change in context. It literally gave a visual to Harry about how Ron feels. He just saw Ron symbolically destroying the idea in front of him. Given that they don't talk about all this enough, given that Harry never even knew that this is how Ron's feelings were, THIS was the time to finally speak. You prove my point, do you see? SINCE they never shared much about such things, they let this idea breed inside rons head, and a symbolic destruction in no way suggests that Ron has suddenly left all his doubts behind. In fact, Harry now needs to address this, something they have never spoken about, and just say a line, just reassure Ron. He just saw his best friend, his family, go through so much anguish all on his account, and you are telling me it doesn't even warrant a mention, because BOYS dont talk about all of this? :) And even if Harry thought that Ron must be over the entire thing (and this is purely even if), EVEN THEN, he had to atleast mention what just happened. What does he mention in it? He says what he said in the book, in a matter of fact way, in a but ron its always been like this way, not even in a defensive explanatory way. It just deeply lacked in emotion i felt, this scene in the movie. If I were Ron, I would take my backpack and start hitting Harry if he showed such a lack of emotion (though unlike Hermione, I wouldn't be doing that to deflect from my other need of wanting to snog senseless the object of rebuke :D ).

I can kind of see it both ways. I felt like Harry should say something, but I just watched the movie again, and Harry does yell, "It's lying" while the Horcrux is spewing its stuff. I suppose it's possible that was enough for Ron to believe Harry insted of the Horcrux and Ron killing the Horcrux with the sword when Harry seems to entertain the thought for a moment that Ron might be coming after him with it instead, is enough to convince them both that things are cool.

(Given the recent poor communication skills of my daughter's prom date, I can understand what Wandrider is driving at. :D )

He just saw his best friend, his family, go through so much anguish all on his account, and you are telling me it doesn't even warrant a mention, because BOYS dont talk about all of this? :)
Yes. I've shared many such moments with friends. It's as though we can both tell what the other is thinking, and we move on to more important matters. I'm not actually suggesting this is something unique to boys, but when I'm with one of the several people I've known really well for a long time, all of them men (I have three brothers), it's often completely superfluous to open our mouths.

Then there people that I do have to verbalize things with. I don't think there's any sort of predictable rule for who or what, but sometimes what everyone has to say is so obvious no one need bother.

Yes. I've shared many such moments with friends. It's as though we can both tell what the other is thinking, and we move on to more important matters. I'm not actually suggesting this is something unique to boys, but when I'm with one of the several people I've known really well for a long time, all of them men (I have three brothers), it's often completely superfluous to open our mouths.

Then there people that I do have to verbalize things with. I don't think there's any sort of predictable rule for who or what, but sometimes what everyone has to say is so obvious no one need bother.

The problem is that everything else in the Silver Doe scene follows the books almost word for word, in fact it goes even further than the book did as in the book it never said Harry and Hermione were naked. The only time the movie deviates largely from the book is when it comes to Harry telling Ron he sees Hermione like a sister. That is pretty much the only bit of the entire Silver Doe scene that was completely changed from what we got in the book.

The problem is that everything else in the Silver Doe scene follows the books almost word for word, in fact it goes even further than the book did as in the book it never said Harry and Hermione were naked. The only time the movie deviates largely from the book is when it comes to Harry telling Ron he sees Hermione like a sister. That is pretty much the only bit of the entire Silver Doe scene that was completely changed from what we got in the book.
Oh, I was only thinking about whether Harry needed to say anything in order for the same result to come about. I'll take your word about the details from the book, but I'm still not sure to what extent it matters for the movie's purposes.

Actually, I'm not sure I really like that line in the book either. :hmm:

... if you remember, as a contrast though, we see Harry trying to talk to hermione about ron in HBP a couple of times and she just shoots him down.
Contrast that with that dance scene... The next morning Harry tried to talk to Hermione about the night before, his stare, gaze, intimate proximity moment (5 seconds), and in the movie Hermione understood everything perfectly! All Harry said was: "Hermione" All Hermione said was: "Don't ever let me give you a haircut again." Well, the book reader would no NOTHING about what just happened in that movie scene. So, the movie is capable of giving more information than the book can in many respects too.

Ok, in a book those quotes above mean nothing, but in the movie it meant an apology & explanation & tenderness & acceptance by Hermione. Harry knew he didn't need to say another word about it ever again. Complete and total understanding, imo. You really don't have to do it in words the same way it occurred in the book.
BUT, the SILVER DOE is a complete change in context. It literally gave a visual to Harry about how Ron feels. He just saw Ron symbolically destroying the idea in front of him. Given that they don't talk about all this enough, given that Harry never even knew that this is how Ron's feelings were, THIS was the time to finally speak. You prove my point, do you see?
See above. :) And continuing, in the movie the Horcrux is what started to amplify all these jealousy feelings to the surface for detection! Ron was fine without the Horcrux on. Yes, he had a seed of jealousy, deep down but not fully conscious in his mind, but the Horcrux grew it into a Fly Trap Eating Monster Plant of awareness! :elaugh:

Do you have evidence for Ron's jealousy with Harry over Hermione in the books before this Horcrux scene & break-up? In the movies? Please enlighten me, because I am not the expert with knowledge that you possess. Seriously.
Given that they don't talk about all this enough, given that Harry never even knew that this is how Ron's feelings were, THIS was the time to finally speak.
They had a break-up argument about it. Hermione, as usual, observed out loud in front of Ron & Harry with perceptive insight that the Horcrux was causing Ron this madness of jealousy! So, Trio Harry & Hermione & Ron all knew this before Ron left. It was within the argument of his leaving. Everyone knew Ron's jealousy feelings.

Upon return, Harry is shouting-screaming "IT IS LYING", when the evil Horcrux attacked Ron with the Inferiority Complex Attack. :wow:
SINCE they never shared much about such things, they let this idea breed inside rons head, and a symbolic destruction in no way suggests that Ron has suddenly left all his doubts behind. In fact, Harry now needs to address this, something they have never spoken about, and just say a line, just reassure Ron. He just saw his best friend, his family, go through so much anguish all on his account, and you are telling me it doesn't even warrant a mention, because BOYS dont talk about all of this? And even if Harry thought that Ron must be over the entire thing (and this is purely even if), EVEN THEN, he had to atleast mention what just happened. [Why doesn't he mention it?] <-rewrote for clarity.
Boys & Movies. ;) Plus, all of the above your quote above, :D proves my point. Give me the evidence of Ron's jealousy between H&H beyond the Horcrux infection.

A picture (a movie) can speak a thousand million billion words, perhaps. :love:

I do very much sympathize with everyone that does not appreciate what Yates said or Radcliffe said or did about that scene. :tu:

Rookie_Angel: Given the recent poor communication skills of my daughter's prom date, I can understand what Wandrider is driving at. ;)
Maybe try twitter & tweeting & see how far you get... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sooo glad cell phones weren't in the Wizard world when JKR wrote everything! :love:

I think the scene of Harry and Hermione dancing was pure friendship. I don't know... it just didn't seem romantic. I don't think they intended to put any mixed feelings or doubt to Ron and Hermione's relationship to the audience for that scene. It was really really cute, though.

Am I the only one who felt a bit awkward watching Harry and Ginny when they were on the kitchen? I always imagined Ginny to be... shorter than Harry. It's still cute, though.

They do a bit in GOF, don't they? "Harry Potter's stupid friend" or whatever Ron says

That seems more of a jealousy remark to me (i.e., famous Harry Potter, no one notices Ron). Either way, it doesn't give the non-reader nearly enough information to understand where Ron's coming from; so the movie took the easier route implying that Ron was jealous because he thought Harry & Hermione might like each other romantically. Those of us who've read the books know there's more to it, and have a better understanding of the complexity of Ron's feelings and background.

Women! :lol: Ok, pretty ladies, girls, females! :D

This is a battle of the sexes perception issue, imo! All females (should) know that most boys, 16yo, do NOT have vast verbal skills, nor do boys enjoy being wordy & gossipy about their insecurities or love interests either. We boys/men are into non-verbal manhood at 16yo about these issues, sorry.

Furthermore, do to the 'fact' (yes, it is statistically proven) 16yo boys are well behind girls at that age in verbal skills, AND this is definitely proven out, imo, with BOTH Harry & Ron, quite typical, as young teen boys. Ron is a lot of grunt, yeah, joking around, feel'in it non-verbally kind of guy. Harry is a bit "wooden" and very predictably teen-boy rash & can flair-up a bit out of control at times. But he is very close to Ron in these non-verbal & verbal respects too except that Harry is much more tightly wound & can unwind faster than Ron. Ron is more at ease and accepting than the Harry that is more rule bound (to his cause).

Regardless, neither Harry or Ron are exceptional in the verbal skills category. I doubt either would do well in a debate club/class. These two are very typical immature teen boys that often get into "trouble" together despite their good attributes.

Plus, I am trying to be honest & well connected to the real EMOTIONAL events that just took place: Ron rescuing Harry from certain death, imo, and then he heroically destroys the "indestructible" Horcrux after Harry & Ron witness H&H being "naked" & kissing & caressing.

Sorry, you girls/women will gossip & go on verbally expecting boys to share intimate issues 'verbally' AFTER this just happened vs far less verbal YET HIGHLY non-verbal 16yo boys!!! Come on! Seriously. All in my opinion. This IS definitely a "guy thing", imo, and this IS why you girls/women aren't getting it. Ron & Harry are too close to even have to say much, especially, in a movie where 'the result' IS seen to be believed. Keep it real and keep in mind these two guys were just shot off the Richter scale of the highest adrenaline rushes they ever shared together in such a personal context. That emotional rush that went to the darkest possible outcomes just swamped & overwhelmed their verbal "wauntingness" to use words or details. Teen guys do NOT want to talk about it IF they don't have to. This is a movie & RL sensing I'm doing now, & not a book's requirements to pass knowledge on by words alone.

Yes, in the book without the movie's non-verbal visual communication abilities I can agree it was brilliant for Harry to say that line, but, as a guy, I completely & totally & honestly understand WHY Harry did NOT have to say that to Ron in the movie. The movie is perfect for these two boys, because it gives them the range they need to prove their non-verbal connection & VERY typical way that boy teens share a deep friendship.

I KNOW. I totally related having been that boy-teen myself. Had Ron done that for me upon his return I could do those scenes exactly as Harry did AND KNOW Ron understands me perfectly well. I really don't have to explain it to him in girl terminology. Imo. We're non-verbal grunt & yeah & emotional guys w/o the wordiness that girls seem to desire & need soooo much. :elaugh: :D

But, PLEASE do set me straight if you still think I'm mistaken. :blush:

P.S. I do imagine Ron & Harry will talk about it decades down the road on a beautiful crystal-clear starlit night with warm "wandfires" burning & a few butterbeers with real alcohol or firefiend-whisky... yeah, it will be reminisced & warmly loved & shared in private FAR AWAY from ANY of the female kind! The healing of time will happen in its fullness by completing this circle & arc of time. :)


There is truth in this...Males process events/emotions completely different than females. What we process through talking, they merely emote and nod and grunt! lol! It's true though.

There is truth in this...Males process events/emotions completely different than females. What we process through talking, they merely emote and nod and grunt! lol! It's true though.

No it isn't. Its true that male friends don't usually talk about feelings but that is more down to if we do we are likely to be teased mercilessly. The fact that Harry and Ron were close enough to talk about their feelings was not only a huge moment in their friendship (as it isn't something they have ever done before) but it is also something that is extremely rare in male friendships. That moment after Ron destroys the locket and they hug and Harry tells Ron that he views Hermione like a sister is a moment where Harry and Ron show that they are closer than brothers.

I hope that makes sense.

Last warning: Everyone who keeps being unable to mark their opinion as such will take a break from this thread as also this area for a while.

Ron seemed to have been getting increasingly jealous of Harry/Hermione since his splinching (good acting by RG, I thought). I don't see that destroying the horcrux would in itself have removed his insecurities which is why I'd have liked the line about Harry seeing Hermione as a sister to have been left in. I think that would have helped the non-reader to get the relationships a bit clearer which in my opinion had got a bit confused by then. It may not be typical of 16 year old boys (and I bow to wandrider's knowledge in this) but I think it would have helped the movie.

Contrast that with that dance scene... The next morning Harry tried to talk to Hermione about the night before, his stare, gaze, intimate proximity moment (5 seconds), and in the movie Hermione understood everything perfectly! All Harry said was: "Hermione" All Hermione said was: "Don't ever let me give you a haircut again." Well, the book reader would no NOTHING about what just happened in that movie scene. So, the movie is capable of giving more information than the book can in many respects too.

Ok, in a book those quotes above mean nothing, but in the movie it meant an apology & explanation & tenderness & acceptance by Hermione. Harry knew he didn't need to say another word about it ever again. Complete and total understanding, imo. You really don't have to do it in words the same way it occurred in the book.

See above. :) And continuing, in the movie the Horcrux is what started to amplify all these jealousy feelings to the surface for detection! Ron was fine without the Horcrux on. Yes, he had a seed of jealousy, deep down but not fully conscious in his mind, but the Horcrux grew it into a Fly Trap Eating Monster Plant of awareness! :elaugh:

Do you have evidence for Ron's jealousy with Harry over Hermione in the books before this Horcrux scene & break-up? In the movies? Please enlighten me, because I am not the expert with knowledge that you possess. Seriously.

They had a break-up argument about it. Hermione, as usual, observed out loud in front of Ron & Harry with perceptive insight that the Horcrux was causing Ron this madness of jealousy! So, Trio Harry & Hermione & Ron all knew this before Ron left. It was within the argument of his leaving. Everyone knew Ron's jealousy feelings.

Upon return, Harry is shouting-screaming "IT IS LYING", when the evil Horcrux attacked Ron with the Inferiority Complex Attack. :wow:

Boys & Movies. ;) Plus, all of the above your quote above, :D proves my point. Give me the evidence of Ron's jealousy between H&H beyond the Horcrux infection.

A picture (a movie) can speak a thousand million billion words, perhaps. :love:

I do very much sympathize with everyone that does not appreciate what Yates said or Radcliffe said or did about that scene. :tu:


Maybe try twitter & tweeting & see how far you get... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sooo glad cell phones weren't in the Wizard world when JKR wrote everything! :love:


Actually, Jo very cleverly planted the seeds of Ron's impending jealousy regarding Harry and Hermione, right from OotP. There are small moments, for instance, when Harry says he is a lousy kisser, Hermione says of course you aren't, and Ron's immediate reaction is "How do you know?!". And there on, especially in HBP, in the beginning before Ron starts dating Lavender, Jo always points to Ron's reaction on observing Hermione and Harry spend time together (which she hadn't done before). For instance, after Hermione confunds McLaggen, Harry holds her back while the three are going back to the Great Hall, and whilst he is talking to her, Ron comes and 'suspiciously' asks what the two of them are doing. Even later on, when Slughorn comments on how Harry mentioned Hermione is the smartest in their year, Ron displays a flash of jealousy. Again, when Hermione is explaining to mildly amused mildly bemused Harry why he has a suddent spurt of girl interest in his gawky life, Ron mutters about how tall he is (and hermione ignores him).

I know a lot of people will claim that is reading too much into it. But I remember, even while reading HBP for the first time, I thought, wow, is Ron starting to get jealous of H/Hr a bit, and then, as easily as she foreshadows it with these moments, she completely stops doing so once Ron/Lavender starts. So yes in the book, there is ample foreshadowing I think.

In the movies though, I'll agree with you, there is no direct reaction from Ron over H/Hr prior to the start of their journey (quite ironic don't you think considering how in the books I never saw any reason at all for him to feel so, while in the movies they have always stressed on the H/Hr friendship over the H/R friendship). But that said, i understand your perspective, and perhaps as a boy you feel what was done was enough, but as I always understood Ron and Harry, I always thought they needed those few friendship moments as written by Jo in the books. It's what makes their friendship special, and it's what is essentially a depiction of the bond they share. One can say that the fact that nothing needed to be said signifies a deeper understanding of one another (in the movie), but I feel words were important at that juncture, considering how the lack of them got them to that point to begin with.

No it isn't. Its true that male friends don't usually talk about feelings but that is more down to if we do we are likely to be teased mercilessly. The fact that Harry and Ron were close enough to talk about their feelings was not only a huge moment in their friendship (as it isn't something they have ever done before) but it is also something that is extremely rare in male friendships. That moment after Ron destroys the locket and they hug and Harry tells Ron that he views Hermione like a sister is a moment where Harry and Ron show that they are closer than brothers.

I hope that makes sense.

It makes sense if you are a male and telling me that.

It seemed to me, in the film version, that the jealousy began when Ron felt excluded from the hunt for the horcruxes. He felt that he was dragged along unnoticed. Then, when it finally boiled up inside of him, and the horcrux he was wearing had gotten a hold of him - the crux of the argument became jealousy about Harry and Hermione on a deeper, more romantic level. When it came out in the argument, it seemed irrational, but it was a logical place for someone to go when being forced into deep negative feelings.

It seemed to me, in the film version, that the jealousy began when Ron felt excluded from the hunt for the horcruxes. He felt that he was dragged along unnoticed. Then, when it finally boiled up inside of him, and the horcrux he was wearing had gotten a hold of him - the crux of the argument became jealousy about Harry and Hermione on a deeper, more romantic level. When it came out in the argument, it seemed irrational, but it was a logical place for someone to go when being forced into deep negative feelings.



How was he being excluded?

How was he being excluded?

Until his return when he was involved with the Tales of BB, it seemed as though he may have felt excluded. It almost seemed as though he was excluding himself for a couple of reasons. Perhaps - Because he was worried about his family. Because Harry and Hermione were investigating horcruxes together. Because he was angry with Dumbledore, and thought Harry knew more.

When they were walking, he seemed to grow distant and depressed.

Then, the scene just before the argument that lead to his leaving - when Harry and Hermione began to discuss the sword of Gryffindor, he finally voiced his feelings of exclusion.

When I say he might have felt excluded, it doesn't mean Harry and Hermione were doing anything in particular. I mean to say that perhaps Ron perceived it this way - and these thoughts might have been fueled by the horcrux. Perhaps this is why he wanted to come back just after he left - because he realized it was all in his head.

Until his return when he was involved with the Tales of BB, it seemed as though he may have felt excluded. It almost seemed as though he was excluding himself for a couple of reasons. Perhaps - Because he was worried about his family. Because Harry and Hermione were investigating horcruxes together. Because he was angry with Dumbledore, and thought Harry knew more.

When they were walking, he seemed to grow distant and depressed.

Then, the scene just before the argument that lead to his leaving - when Harry and Hermione began to discuss the sword of Gryffindor, he finally voiced his feelings of exclusion.

When I say he might have felt excluded, it doesn't mean Harry and Hermione were doing anything in particular. I mean to say that perhaps Ron perceived it this way - and these thoughts might have been fueled by the horcrux. Perhaps this is why he wanted to come back just after he left - because he realized it was all in his head.

I agree with this.

And I think it has to be remembered that the horcrux's presence affected Ron more strongly than it did Hermione and Harry. So Ron is feeling frustration that Dumbledore didn't leave Harry clearer instructions, he's worried about his family--then add the personal fears and insecurites that he already had that were just buried and kept to himself---You've got an explosion waiting to happen. And the horcrux just continued to intensify all of this, right to the point that it caused Ron to exclude himself, yet place the blame on Harry and Hermione. Then of course, he convinced himself that Hermione preferred Harry anyway.

And then we get what I thought was a great contrast between Ron's fears and reality. Evil horcrux Harry & Hermione being romantically involved and happy without him, representing Ron's (fake) fears--and "that infamous scene" of real Harry & Hermione, not having romantic relations and not even managing to remain happy without him, showing reality.

Until his return when he was involved with the Tales of BB, it seemed as though he may have felt excluded. It almost seemed as though he was excluding himself for a couple of reasons. Perhaps - Because he was worried about his family. Because Harry and Hermione were investigating horcruxes together. Because he was angry with Dumbledore, and thought Harry knew more.

When they were walking, he seemed to grow distant and depressed.

Then, the scene just before the argument that lead to his leaving - when Harry and Hermione began to discuss the sword of Gryffindor, he finally voiced his feelings of exclusion.

When I say he might have felt excluded, it doesn't mean Harry and Hermione were doing anything in particular. I mean to say that perhaps Ron perceived it this way - and these thoughts might have been fueled by the horcrux. Perhaps this is why he wanted to come back just after he left - because he realized it was all in his head.

In the film. But he participated in the Ministry heist. He was included when they left the reception. I think Ron was struggling with feeling and emotions. I just don't know if it would be exclusion. The film seemed to be playing up his feelings of suspicion that Harry and Hermione were developing a relationship. He was acting oddly at Grimmauld place when Kreacher arrived, but I couldn't quite figure out why he was so during that scene.

In the film. But he participated in the Ministry heist. He was included when they left the reception. I think Ron was struggling with feeling and emotions. I just don't know if it would be exclusion. The film seemed to be playing up his feelings of suspicion that Harry and Hermione were developing a relationship. He was acting oddly at Grimmauld place when Kreacher arrived, but I couldn't quite figure out why he was so during that scene.

Well, I suppose it's up to interpretation. I didn't say that he was being excluded. It's only my opinion that it seemed like he felt excluded in searching for horcruxes.

Since he didn't say so directly, I can understand that you have a different perception of what Ron was going through.

The main evidence I can come up with that proves he felt excluded is when he uses his deluminator when Harry and Hermione are talking and he says "Yah, I'm still here." or something to that nature? Otherwise, I respect that you disagree. :)

I am feeling a sudden burst of love for Ron.

In the film. But he participated in the Ministry heist. He was included when they left the reception. I think Ron was struggling with feeling and emotions. I just don't know if it would be exclusion. The film seemed to be playing up his feelings of suspicion that Harry and Hermione were developing a relationship. He was acting oddly at Grimmauld place when Kreacher arrived, but I couldn't quite figure out why he was so during that scene.

It might have simply been logistics with needing a lot of space for the 2 CGI house elves. Harry obviously had to be on the side there, as Kreacher & Dobby were talking to him. Ron does come over and talk to Dobby after Ron calls Mundungus a thief.

So much talk about this dance scene, Ohh well. I really enjoyed all the Ron/Hermione moments in part 1 there're so cute toghter. Cant wait for all thier little moments in part 2.

It makes sense if you are a male and telling me that.

Yes i am male. A friendship between 2 males where they are able to talk about their feelings is extremely rare and that moment after the destruction of the locket was a huge moment in Ron's and Harry's friendship because previously neither were comfortable enough around each other to actually talk about what they were really feelings instead of trying to hide it (eg Ron never told Harry about his feelings for Hermione and Harry never told Ron about his growing feelings for Ginny).

Well, I suppose it's up to interpretation. I didn't say that he was being excluded. It's only my opinion that it seemed like he felt excluded in searching for horcruxes.

Since he didn't say so directly, I can understand that you have a different perception of what Ron was going through.

The main evidence I can come up with that proves he felt excluded is when he uses his deluminator when Harry and Hermione are talking and he says "Yah, I'm still here." or something to that nature? Otherwise, I respect that you disagree. :)

I saw the same as you and also felt Ron was feeling excluded. I thought this provoked his jealousy in part - that Harry & Hermione were discussing things without him. It seemed to come over in the horcrux scene that he felt H&Hr didn't want him there - the horcrux was after all showing what was in his mind, not the truth.

I guess the way I saw it was when he saw them discussing horcruxes or whatever without him, he didn't think they were discussing anything at all (or of importance), but rather, that he saw them as having intimate moments together; growing evidence of their budding 'romance' in his eyes.

I guess the way I saw it was when he saw them discussing horcruxes or whatever without him, he didn't think they were discussing anything at all (or of importance), but rather, that he saw them as having intimate moments together; growing evidence of their budding 'romance' in his eyes.

I agree. I see that as Ron getting more jealous and angry because he (and the horcrux) are interpreting everything in the context of Harry & Hermione romantically liking each other.

I guess the way I saw it was when he saw them discussing horcruxes or whatever without him, he didn't think they were discussing anything at all (or of importance), but rather, that he saw them as having intimate moments together; growing evidence of their budding 'romance' in his eyes.

I agree. I see that as Ron getting more jealous and angry because he (and the horcrux) are interpreting everything in the context of Harry & Hermione romantically liking each other.

And would you say that this made Ron feel excluded - regardless of what he thought Harry and Hermoine were talking about?

And would you say that this made Ron feel excluded - regardless of what he thought Harry and Hermoine were talking about?

No, I wouldn't. Ron had been sleeping/resting from his splinching accident in the movie. Also, Ron's sarcastic "yeah, I'm still here", is his way of saying Hermione & Harry are too focused on each other and don't see him -- even though he was resting in another room. It's not like Ron was right there and they ignored him.

FYI, in the books, Ron's in the same area as they are, all 3 had just finished talking to Phineas's portrait, after which Hermione & Harry both realize that the sword can destroy horcruxes. They're both excited about that & have a few short sentences of realization -- then Harry makes a supposition and turns to ask Ron what he thinks. Harry thinks for a moment that Ron's left the tent because Ron has slunk back on the bottom bunk and "looking stony". Then he makes the same kind of sarcastic comments that implies Harry & Hermione are wrapped up with each other ("You two carry on, don't let me spoil your fun"). So the movie follows the same path as the book -- Ron is jealous & angry of what he perceives as an intimate relationship between Hermione & Harry .

Then he makes the same kind of sarcastic comments that implies Harry & Hermione are wrapped up with each other ("You two carry on, don't let me spoil your fun"). So the movie follows the same path as the book -- Ron is jealous & angry of what he perceives as an intimate relationship between Hermione & Harry .

Ok, I'm just going to assume that we have different definitions of "excluded" and leave it at that. :) I think we are saying the same thing. :rolleyes: :D

Ok, I'm just going to assume that we have different definitions of "excluded" and leave it at that. :) I think we are saying the same thing. :rolleyes: :D

I think "exclusion" is different, in the sense that it implies both Hermione & Harry are choosing to ignore Ron & pretend he's not in the room. But that's not the case in either the movie or the book. And there's nothing "fun" about discussing horcruxes, nor romantic either.

Ron's reactions are horcrux driven based on his fears, but clearly jealous and mad about it, not hurt or sad. That's why he demands that Hermione "choose" who to be with after he decides to leave, and why he wouldn't listen to her when she ran after him (although horcrux-less) pleading for him to come back. Anger & jealously made him temporarily irrational. He came to his senses on disapparating, but it was too late.

But that said, i understand your perspective, and perhaps as a boy you feel what was done was enough, but as I always understood Ron and Harry, I always thought they needed those few friendship moments as written by Jo in the books. It's what makes their friendship special, and it's what is essentially a depiction of the bond they share. One can say that the fact that nothing needed to be said signifies a deeper understanding of one another (in the movie), but I feel words were important at that juncture, considering how the lack of them got them to that point to begin with.
It may not be typical of 16 year old boys (and I bow to wandrider's knowledge in this) but I think it would have helped the movie.
I highly respect both of your opinions. Always brilliant and/or perceptive beyond my writing abilities, darn! :shrug:

If I could use a Pensieve or I imagined myself as the characters, both Ron & Harry, then I see no need to do more than what happened in the movie. I carefully analyze these scenes with replay video. I can go further with more refined reasons & details. However, and it is a BIG however, the movie does not account for what many females are understanding or perceiving on this thread. GingerCat1, a male, also has this POV.

So, I concede, for those with HP book knowledge vs movie accuracy this is an issue. Should the scene have been done in a different way? I have referred to David Heyman's comments with a link to the video in this thread. Heyman thinks "they" know 'exactly' what they are doing. I don't get the sense that he thinks any major mistakes were made with any of the scenes we are discussing. Btw, "they" see themselves as the most fanatical fans of HP too, and I got the idea that we are respected, our opinions, but 'that' will never have any affect/effect on what "they" know & do. The main reason given is "they" know the movie business & we "the fan base" are not experts in their field of expertise.

Trump card is always in their hands & not the audience hands. :shrug: Of course, we still get to be critics about it here on CoS. :lol:
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On the Exclusion vs Non-Exclusion issue, here's my take:

I definitely think the Horcrux made Ron feel excluded, absolutely. Yes, Harry & Hermione were focused on solving the Horcrux thing & they were off talking alone because Ron was bedridden. Ron-w/horcrux started stewing on the cot & the injury was H&H reason why they kind of went off together. Maybe H&H felt Ron needed his rest, since he was not getting up to follow. I think the day before and/or day of the argument Ron was wearing the Horcrux. He finally was up walking but lagging & H&H were not waiting or staying right with him. Probably Ron-w/horcrux thought this was invading his space with Hermione (and Trio too), & he began feeding-off Horcrux-fuel into resentment, jealousy, exclusion, and imagining H&H had a thing going for each other. Plus, the *injury* really added to the problem of "imagined exclusion" by the bedridden separation aspect. Meanwhile, H&H were treating Ron more as a patient that needed rest & no stress. Why bother Ron with his need to heal & rest about destroying Horcruxes?

I felt really bad for Ron being left out but yeah that outburst really showed that even if Ron isn't that much of use to the group he makes a big impact.

Onto other things I thought the friendly dance 'lets cheer Hermione up and dance awkwardly' scene was adorable.
The scene where the locket shows Hermione and Harry as illusions was great, I think they were CGI versions if I'm correct

They weren't CGI versions. I mean they really filmed that kiss for the scene where Harry and Hermione come out of the locket. They, of course, tweaked it after the fact but them kissing is real.

The part before when the Riddle forms of Harry and Hermione were talking looked more like computer graphics but I guess the overuse of the glow effect really makes them look more CGI-like haha