Wasn't Molly kind of rude & angry?

In OoTp I kind of felt sorry for Sirius because Molly was really, sort of rude. It especially made me mad the part where she said Harry was as good as her son, as if Sirius wasn't Harry's godfather at all. Well, maybe she was kind of suspicious of him, being an escaped convict and all, but still what do you think?
:angry:

I guess she feels that Sirius is still as irresponsible as a child, and not living up to his role of being godfather. As Mrs Weasley said, Harry isn't James.
She's really overprotective of Harry, and it was just shining through in that scene.

I was inclined to side with sirius, but that's just personal bias...

I didn't really feel blameful towards Molly - I wouldn't put it down to rudeness, rather, i think she was thinking more of harry's feelings than of sirius' - and tho it's not nice, it's kinda understandable, isn't it?

The only bit that bothered me was when she said that it'd been hard for sirius to act father to harry when he'd "been locked up in azkaban"... :(

oh yeah, but one thing Sirius said was right - HArry isn't a child, but Molly kind of treated him like one.

I think that Molly had some very good points about Sirius being reckless and irresponsible.

She said she felt Sirius treated Harry as if he were James. Sirius himself got very snooty when Harry didn't want him to risk getting seen by the Malfoys again. That whole "You're not as much like your father as I thought" just because Harry didn't want Sirius to do something idiotic and dangerous.....it was a little as if Harry was having to be the parent to Sirius!

I mean, Molly may be overprotective for Harry's age, but that beats WANTING a kid to do dangerous and reckless things.

As always I agreee with Inkwolf.
The problem is, at Harry's age which is both man and boy, Molly and Sirius were both correct in their methods of parenting to a point. Neither one of them willing to compromise brought upon rudeness from both of them.

I do not blame Molly.

Oh well thats just too bad they couldn't cooperate *shrugs*

Though at the beginning of the book Harry is caught between being a man and a boy, by the end he has become a man (his grief and his feelings of responsibility are adult and even Dumbledore acknowledges him as a man). In the end, Sirius was proved right about Harry's need for more knowledge, but Molly was equally correct about Sirius' slanted viewpoint. In the end, the people who acted most like parents for Harry were Molly and Lupin. Black cared about him but was more comfortable as a big brother or a friend than anything else. Who can blame him, his associations with parenthood are all awful.

Inkwolf -
I reckon you make a fair point, but i can't say i agree with your opinion:

I think that Molly had some very good points about Sirius being reckless and irresponsible.

She said she felt Sirius treated Harry as if he were James. Sirius himself got very snooty when Harry didn't want him to risk getting seen by the Malfoys again. That whole "You're not as much like your father as I thought" just because Harry didn't want Sirius to do something idiotic and dangerous.....it was a little as if Harry was having to be the parent to Sirius!

I mean, Molly may be overprotective for Harry's age, but that beats WANTING a kid to do dangerous and reckless things.

Firstly, while i agree that sirius has proved to be a rather reckless character, i don't think calling him "irresponsible" is completely fair. The thing is, while Sirius takes a lot of risks in the 5th book, the only thing he ever risks is himself -- he *never* tries to get harry to put himself at risk. Think about it carefully -- even harry meeting sirius at hogsmeade wouldn't have been dangereous for harry, the only thing at risk there was sirius getting caught.

As for sirius beeing "snooty" -- well, i can see where you're coming from, but again, i can't say i really agree. Taken from Sirius' perspective, i see it this way: Sirius was lonely, and wanted to see harry really badly. He figured there was a risk, but not a big one - which is probably right. And he figured that he was risking only himself - was it really harry's role to tell him what was and wasn't safe?

Also, remember how protective Sirius is of harry in the 4th book - he travels out of hiding into hogsmeade to allow himself to be of aid to harry. And no one complained of his recklessness then. Also remember that he stopped harry from taking risks, such as walking the hogwarts grounds alone, particularly after dark, etc. The risks he encourages harry to take in the 5th book aren't really dangerous ones - like being a part of DA, and meeting sirius in hogsmeade.

But the situation had changed. After Voldemort got the gang back together he pumped them all for information and Wormtail "remembered" that Sirius was an Animagus. It was now no longer safe for Sirius to go out ANYWHERE. And Sirius was as ridiculous about things like meeting Krum as Ron and Hagrid had been. Also, the DA wasn't really a calculated risk. It was open defiance of a teacher who'd ben endowed with inquasatorial and dictatorial power. It was a lot bigger risk and statement for Harry than anything he'd ever done before. And he almost paid the price for it. As it was, he forced Dumbledore to take the blame on himself and flee (with style, yes, but flee nonetheless).

Nice post jordmundt6, I'd have to agree with you.
I'm glad, however, that the trio took Sirius' view on becoming prepared to defend themselves against the dark arts. Just imagine what would have happened if they'd have agreed with Molly that they could prepare themselves later. I love Molly, but she does tend to underestimate the kid's capabilities.

But the situation had changed. After Voldemort got the gang back together he pumped them all for information and Wormtail "remembered" that Sirius was an Animagus. It was now no longer safe for Sirius to go out ANYWHERE.
Yeah, that's true. But my point abotu Sirius is in regards to the risks he gets harry to take. Meeting sirius at hogsmeade was hardly any more dangerous for harry than going to hogsmeade with ron and hermione. The risks sirius puts upon himself were rather reckless, i think - but that doesn't make him an irresponsible godfather.

Also, the DA wasn't really a calculated risk. It was open defiance of a teacher who'd ben endowed with inquasatorial and dictatorial power. It was a lot bigger risk and statement for Harry than anything he'd ever done before. And he almost paid the price for it. As it was, he forced Dumbledore to take the blame on himself and flee (with style, yes, but flee nonetheless).
I guess that's true - but i still think that the idea of DA was a great one - and remember, one that Hermione initiated - and you're not about to call hermione irresponsible too, are you? (I mean, ok, she nearly backed out of it, but she decided to carry on in the end). I agree with what sirius said, though - that, considering voldemort was back, it was a good idea to learn how to protect themselves.

Also, no one knew why Dumbledore left, where he went, etc. Personally, i think his departure was inevitable, with the ministry after him.

The Ministry needed a reason. Fudge needed a pretext. Without Harry's actions, neither would have had what they needed to act.

EDIT: They knew why he left. He gave Fudge a tailor-made case for high treason. If he had stayed he would have been in Azkaban. (Without the Dementors there he would have broken out easily, but still...)

Molly is very protective, I think. She mothers her children (and Harry) and underestimates them because she sees them as children, nothing more and nothing less. Children should stay in safety, on solid ground, out of trouble and dangerous waters. She's a good motherly figure and a good influence, but that attitude becomes aggravating, especially when you can see the uses of taking risks - like with the D.A. Sirius, for all of his recklessness and seeing Harry as somewhat of a brother, had a better idea of what teenagers are capable of handling, probably because he did so much as a teenager. His recklessness was also aggravating, though. I think that Remus is between the two - he's cautious, but knows what teens are aware of. Instead of taking no risks or taking all of them, he can tell what risks are safe to take.

The one thing that struck a chord with me was Molly's angry reference to how Sirius had been in Azkaban and hadn't been much of a parental figure because of it. Whatever reason she had to get angry, I think that crosses the line. There are too many implications there, and I don't think Sirius would have taken well to most references to Azkaban in the first place.

Molly was the overprotective type. She always was, in the past books. She meant well, by taking care of Harry the way she thought was right; not telling him the truth and hoping that he doesn't take a part in D.A.. But Sirius was being sort of irresponsible. It wasn't his fault, I think the house was getting to him. He was shut up in a place where he hated most and thought he would never have to come back to. He was probably thinking about the past, when he was happy (like at Hogwarts) to get away from the bad memories of Grimmauld Place. So, Sirius was a bit reckless and taking Harry as James. Molly had a point there; that Harry wasn't James.
They both meant well, Molly and Sirius. But they has rather different points of views. Molly thought that taking care of Hary meant to keep him in the dark, keep him happy not knowing the details and keeping aways from all signs of trouble. Sirius, on the other hand, thought that taking a stand in what he thought was right(like D.A.) and telling Harry the truth was right.

Yeah, she crossed the line there. You could tell that they were about five seconds away from dueling if Remus didn't intervene exactly then. Now, it would have been nice to see if Molly had chops, but this was just stupid.

And Remus did seem to be the responsible, level-headed parent in this whole thing. Mirroring Arthur, actually.

Off-topic for a second: I really wish we'd got a Moody p.o.v. on that quivering desk. Remember what Lupin said in PoA? "Nobody knows what a boggart looks like when he is alone." Well, Moody might. I think that would be interesting.

Originally posted by Tarawyn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=423071#post423071))
The one thing that struck a chord with me was Molly's angry reference to how Sirius had been in Azkaban and hadn't been much of a parental figure because of it. Whatever reason she had to get angry, I think that crosses the line. There are too many implications there, and I don't think Sirius would have taken well to most references to Azkaban in the first place.


Exactly...that is the thing that struck a nerve with me. Molly (it seems so weird to call her that, I feel it should be Mrs. Weasley lol) As if it was Sirius's fault that he was in Azkaban for 11 years and couldn't talk to his godson. It was very striking to me at how much tension there was between them - they were almost acting like children at some instances. I was biased toward Sirius for Harry' sake, b/c I know what it feels like to be treated younger than you are and how frustrated Harry was already about being left in the dark.

Molly should definitely have eased up a bit. Good thing Lupin was there to calm them both down :)

Yeah, i agree with Tarawyn on that one. Molly's not usually like that - it was almost... spiteful... i dunno, that just wasn't nice.

***
The Ministry needed a reason. Fudge needed a pretext. Without Harry's actions, neither would have had what they needed to act.

EDIT: They knew why he left. He gave Fudge a tailor-made case for high treason. If he had stayed he would have been in Azkaban. (Without the Dementors there he would have broken out easily, but still...)
No, that's not what i meant - about why he left, that is. DD didn't *need* to leave - personally, i think that's another mystery in the book that doesn't get answered -- where is it that DD went, and why did he think that Fudge would soon regret him leaving? If you think about it logically, from what we know - it would have been easy for DD to let harry get expelled - he could've stayed at the order headquarters quite safely. And DD could probably have cooked up some excuse to enable both himself and harry to stay at hogwarts - especially considering the memory charm that Kingsley managed to pull off.

No, overall, i don't think you can blame DD's departure on DA. DA certainly caused DD to leave at that particular moment, but he seemed to have a plan - which indicates that he probably meant to leave sooner or later.

It does feel weird to call Mrs. Weasley Molly, but I think it's easier to talk about her like that - she's a person, not just a mother.

Sirius and Molly are just very different. They're at opposite ends of a spectrum, almost, and sparks fly when they're pushed too close. They were being childish. If Remus hadn't intervened, they would have gotten violent. Molly had a point, but she came off as almost an antagonizer. It was a vulnerable topic for Sirius, and we saw Molly's saber-toothed tiger act on a bad subject for less-than-peachy reasons. I wonder how that'll play out in the future. Harry's not going to want all the mothering and protection she's willing to offer, and they have some bones to pick. Maybe Molly's arguments with Sirius, and Harry's sympathies, are a hint in the direction of a rocky relationship.

If Remus is willing to explain things, I think it'll be easiest for him to get through to Harry.


---

I think that Dumbledore may have had a plan, but not one he planned to use. Considering the situation, it was best for him to have something up his sleeve if someone tried to push him out of his position, and while it was the D.A.'s fault that Dumbledore had to leave at that time, he had seen something like it coming. If he hadn't been pushed out by the D.A. incident, Fudge would have found something else (eventually).

Yeah, REmus seems the obvious person now to give harry the father-like advice and support he needs.

The thing is, though - he's kind of detached from harry's situation, in a way, i think... his relationship with harry is more like a close teacher-student one, than the father-brother one that sirius played. I see remus' role as being a bit of a mixture between sirius' and dumbledore's - someone to explain to harry what he needs to know, and to give him advice. Sirius' kinda took on that brotherly side to it, i suppose - harry was always telling him his problems and such - i can't see harry spilling his heart out to remus... not yet, anyway.

EDIT: It'll be interesting to see the role that mrs weasley plays, though...

Molly tends to let her anger get the best of her better judgement.
She regretted telling the twins off when she was worried they were hurt in GoF so we know it's not how she really feels.
I agree it was out of line nevertheless. Sirius didn't deserve it. He perhaps got a little too sick of being reminded he needed to stay at home from her along with everyone else.

*eye twitches; puts on iron clothing; prepares the fight for the honor of Sirius to the death*

Really, I think that Sirius was scarred in terms of maturity because of Azkaban. He was about 22-23 when he went there, meaning that by when he ecaped, he probably still ran under the maturity of a 22 year old male.

They both had opposite views with the same goal. They both wanted Harry to be safe and happy, yet Sirius wanted to do this by telling him the truth so he would be prepared, and Mrs. Weasley wanted to do it by avoiding telling him anything. They both care for him, and they were probably both fighting for Harry's attention, if you think about it, really. Molly wants to be his mother, and Sirius, well, he wanted to be his big brother (perfectly understandable....for both of them).

Sirius was willing to take risks for Harry in terms of The Kiss. That says a lot about him, I think ( stupid, impulsive, risky....brave loving, caring....). Sirius wanting to take risks is a combination of his personality and his love for Harry. Molly wanting to keep him in the dark was a combination of her personality and her love for Harry.

I bet Molly feels like poo now, though. :(

Yeah, well said Lestrange :)

Particularly with the bit about Sirius being loving, caring, brave, etc... that's the main reason why i disagree with ppl who call sirius "reckless and irresponsible" - because the risk is always on his own head... and he does it all for harry's sake.


But some part of him realised, even as he fought to break free from Lupin, that Sirius had never kept him waiting before… Sirius had risked everything, always, to see Harry, to help him… if Sirius was not reappearing out of that archway when Harry was yelling for him as though his life depended on it, the only possible explanation was that he could not come back…
:'(

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=422459#post422459))
That whole "You're not as much like your father as I thought" just because Harry didn't want Sirius to do something idiotic and dangerous.....it was a little as if Harry was having to be the parent to Sirius!

I mean, Molly may be overprotective for Harry's age, but that beats WANTING a kid to do dangerous and reckless things.


I totally agree. To me, Sirius was trying to become more of best pals with Harry than be anything like a parent, even if not intentionally.

And talk about rude, giving a snide insult just because a child you are supposed to be a role model towards, is horrible. And, seeing how much Harry wanted to follow in his father's footsteps (before Snape's memory), this really was a slap in the face.

However, at the same time, Molly was being overprotective a little, but I think that is a big part of her character. As shown, her children (Harry included) are her life, and when you hold something that dear to you, you are going to protect it as much as possible. She was just being the normal, worrying mother.

I don't think she was rude, I just think that she couldn't bear something happening to Harry as she says, he's like a son to her. I think she believes that Sirius's childishness could've led him into a dangerous situation and that's why she was angry at him.

Veritaserum

Yeah, I also thought that Molly was really rude to Sirius, and i guess she could be a little bit nervous about him because he escaped from Azkaban, but if she was i don'y think she would say all of that kind of stuff to him because if she believed that he was dangerous and deserved to be in prison, i don't think she would take the chance of saying that kind of stuff to him because who knows what he would do? But she usually believes everything Dunbledore believes, so yeah, but i dunno why she would be so rude.

Molly was rude to Sirius, and her statement about Azkaban was over the line. But there were mitigating circumstances that lead up to it, Sirius' attitude being one of them. He was deeply unhappy about being trapped in the house, and disagreed vocally about Dumbledore's orders. Molly probably saw this as some measure of disloyalty to Dumbledore, to whom she is a staunch supporter.

Molly was also very much stressed out. She had been uprooted from her home, was living in a house of horrors, her family and Harry remained in great danger, they were estranged from Percy and Arthur would have been sacked or worse if Fudge found out what they was up to. She lashed out the only way she could and Sirius became the target.

I found Molly a bit rude when she was talking to Sirius at the beginning of the book. Though, to some point, she was right.
But you can't blame her. She's just being protective and trying to substitue as Harry's mother.
She felt that Sirius treated Harry like he was James.
But also, Harry is old enough, and he needs to knwo the truth.

You know, as much as I feel this topic wouldn't have been brought if Sirius would not have died, I still feel that Mrs. Weasely was being quite rude. Being the considerate person she is, she should really reflect on what he is having to go through. However, as anna said, she was just doing it for Harry, which is understandable but some of the comments she made makes that questionable. I have never seen her like that, and that includes her yelling at Mundungas numerous times....Why was she like that to Sirius all of a sudden?

I think it's just that Molly loves Harry. And if you love someone you tend to protect the person. :angel:

A couple of things more:

Yes, I agree with Tarawyn that Molly and Sirius were at opposite ends of the spectrum. Harry had to make his decisions, and the right decisions lay between the two extremes.

Sirius's remark about 'You're not like your father' was emotional blackmail, pure and simple.

You say Sirius wasn't irresponsible because all the risks were to himself. No, they weren't. If he was captured by the Ministry (OR the DEATH EATERS themselves), it's quite likely they would have used Veritaserum or something to find out how he had managed to hide all this time, and who was helping him. In addition, even if he died without implicating anyone else and exposing the Order, his death would leave Harry without a guardian again. Since Sirius has a RESPONSIBILITY to look after Harry, getting himself killed on a stupid lark is indeed irresponsible and selfish behavior. Yes, there are things worth dying for. No, getting out of the house for a visit isn't one of them.

Sirius encouraged them about the DA, but I feel that Hermione was right about Sirius trying to live through them. The DA was a good and useful project, but I can't help feeling that Sirius would have been equally enthusiastic about their risking expulsion over, say, an illegal Peeves fan club. Remember that Sirius spent his school years doing things that would have gotten him expelled, if Snape had ever managed to get evidence on them. Lupin said in PoA that the makers of the map would have WANTED to lure Harry out of the school and into danger. That's because Sirius (who nearly got someone eaten by a werewolf and said as an adult that it would have served them right) has no sense of danger or consequences or caution at all.

One of the first things Sirius said to Harry was that at least Harry had been able to get out and get in a few fights. Sirius lived for getting in trouble, and his whole life was spent looking for ways to do it. Maybe the 12 years in Azkaban arrested his development of maturity as is claimed, but I don't think so. There are some people who never grow up and never learn to be responsible, and I think Sirius was one of them.

I completely disagree with you Inkwolf. I dont think sirius was being irresponsible by suporting the DA and I dont think he was doing it to "live through" the kids as Hermione thought. Sirius has a much more realistic attitude to the world than Molly so I dont think it's fair to say that he 'hasn't grown up', if anything he like Harry, had to grow up too quickly.

It is not normal for a 22/23 year old to be involved in something like the 'order' nor to have cut all ties with their family at the age of 16, or to see your best friends die as another friend betrays them. He was forced to face up to danger and reality at a very early age. I dont belive that he 'goes looking for trouble' or 'lives for it' but he would always put himself forward to face danger in order to protect those he cares about. After all he has been through Sirius understands very well what Harry and his freinds are facing now Voldermort has returned and he knows it is important that they learn to defend themselves. If Molly had got her way and the DA had been abandoned, Ron, Ginny, Luna and neville would never have managed to escape from umbridges office to meet harry in the forest, nor would any of them (apart from Harry) have known how to defend themselves in the ministry.

I think Sirius also understands Harry's personality very well, they are both very similar, they cannot stand to be 'locked up' and innacative, and they both tend to be impulsive. Sirus though that it was best to give Harry all the information that he wanted in order to subdue his anger and curiosity which could have led to him to do something 'rash'. Molly wanted to treat Harry like an ignorant child, she has no real understanding of harry as a 'person' and how he is likely to react to things.Sirius wanted to treat him like an adult, aknowledging that Harry had already been through more than most grown up wizards.

I cannot see how this can be described as irresponisble. Sirius always had harry's best intrests at heart, thinking about his peace of mind as well as his physical saftey. He was extremely protective just in a less smothering way than Molly. In Harry's 4th year he constantly tried to stop harry from doing anything risky, he took all the risks himself. His love for Harry was so strong that he could not stand to not be there fighting for harry when he was in trouble, that is why he left the house, it was not a 'stupid lark.' Sirius's motivation for going to the ministry was the same as Harry's, he did out out of unquestionable love and loyalty, it was not an irresponsible decision, but a human decision, no parent or guardian is perfect but one who will go to any lengths to defend and protect a child is not one to be critisised.

Molly tries to mother everyone around her, its just the way she is, bless her.
I fear we will find in the next book that Molly blames herself in part for Sirius' death too. Just see how she reacted after yelling at the twins before the Quidditch Cup, and they came home alright.

I believe that neither Mrs Weasley or Sirius would have been any worse or better than the other at being Harry's 'parent'. They're both just... different.

I don't agree entirely with Hermione's judgement of Sirius but I agree with some of it. He really has been lonely for a very long time. He had an excuse to go barking (geddit?). What was Mrs Weasley's excuse? I appreciate that she was stressed and distressed and all manner of other things but I felt really badly towards her when she was mouthing off to Sirius. He's a man who has been locked away for more years with the Dementors than anybody should have to deal with, he's not one of her cheeky, boisterous sons who needs telling off.

But I can't stay mad at Mrs Weasley. I hope she isn't upset by this in the next book. To be honest, I think she might be more sorry for Harry than Sirius. But it might make her appreciate how much Harry cared about his godfather, even if she didn't approve. I don't think she would ever have wished death on Sirius, certainly not at the expense of poor Harry.

Like many agree, Sirius and Molly have different views of what they think is best for Harry.

Molly thinks Harry's safety is first, and that includes if he is unhappy, while Sirius is more concerned about Harry's happiness, and that includes if he is unsafe. They contradict each other.

mrs. weasly just didnt want harry to get too much info. she was worried about him.

I think Molly was sort of rude,but she's a mother,and she is worried about harry.(we saw that when she met boggart.)But Sirius is right too,because harry's not a child and even if he is,he has a lot of experience and he could handle with these voldy-ish things
(I don't know English well,sorry for the grammer mistakes. :) )

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=423933#post423933))
A couple of things more:

Yes, I agree with Tarawyn that Molly and Sirius were at opposite ends of the spectrum. Harry had to make his decisions, and the right decisions lay between the two extremes.

Sirius's remark about 'You're not like your father' was emotional blackmail, pure and simple.

You say Sirius wasn't irresponsible because all the risks were to himself. No, they weren't. If he was captured by the Ministry (OR the DEATH EATERS themselves), it's quite likely they would have used Veritaserum or something to find out how he had managed to hide all this time, and who was helping him. In addition, even if he died without implicating anyone else and exposing the Order, his death would leave Harry without a guardian again. Since Sirius has a RESPONSIBILITY to look after Harry, getting himself killed on a stupid lark is indeed irresponsible and selfish behavior. Yes, there are things worth dying for. No, getting out of the house for a visit isn't one of them.

Sirius encouraged them about the DA, but I feel that Hermione was right about Sirius trying to live through them. The DA was a good and useful project, but I can't help feeling that Sirius would have been equally enthusiastic about their risking expulsion over, say, an illegal Peeves fan club. Remember that Sirius spent his school years doing things that would have gotten him expelled, if Snape had ever managed to get evidence on them. Lupin said in PoA that the makers of the map would have WANTED to lure Harry out of the school and into danger. That's because Sirius (who nearly got someone eaten by a werewolf and said as an adult that it would have served them right) has no sense of danger or consequences or caution at all.

One of the first things Sirius said to Harry was that at least Harry had been able to get out and get in a few fights. Sirius lived for getting in trouble, and his whole life was spent looking for ways to do it. Maybe the 12 years in Azkaban arrested his development of maturity as is claimed, but I don't think so. There are some people who never grow up and never learn to be responsible, and I think Sirius was one of them.


Wow! Exellent analysis, Inkwolf. I think you have pegged the late Mr. Black to a 'tee.'

I've always gotten the feeling that Rowling never really knew what she wanted from this character, or where to take him. In PoA, he's an escaped and dangerous lunatic until the very end, after which two paragraphs of explanation and the fact that he bought Harry a Firebolt are supposed to convince us he's wonderful. In GoF, he really IS wonderful, and even sort of responsible: he looks out for Harry, gives him sound and sensible advice, and even buries his feud with an old enemy to fight Voldemort.

But I was very disappointed with Sirius in this book. He acted like a spoiled child most of the time, and wasn't any sort of support to Harry at all--in fact, he seemed downright resentful of the people who COULD (and were) trying to help him. People like Molly, for instance. I thought it was a poor way to treat a character whose death was supposed to devastate us all.

Sirius may have been reckless, but he definately was NOT irresponsible. He did all those "irresponsible" things, but at the expense of himself, and it was all for Harry. It may have been "irresponsible", but it was an act of caring, and he would have put himself in danger if thats what it took. I think Molly did cross the line, however, I have to admit, she was pretty caring and loving of Harry, too.

Sirius's remark about 'You're not like your father' was emotional blackmail, pure and simple.

I guess you've all forgotten what he said right afterwards. The risk is what would've made it fun for James. He told Harry right afterwards why he thought that he wasn't as much like James (and of course, as we were proven by the Pensieve, he was right), he didn't let the comment stand alone to hurt Harry (and I doubt that his motives were to hurt him anyway...).

When Sirius said what he said about James, he did it after deep thought, in which I doubt that he was looking for the best snide remark to emotionally blackmail Harry (There was a pause in which Sirius looked out of the fire at Harry, a crease between his sunken eyes). Sirius just thought that Harry was a lot like James, and was proven wrong by how cautious Harry acted.

I agree, though, that Sirius didn't really have a sense of danger, because....well, that's just blantantly obvious. He began crossing lines while he was young, after you've started crossing lines, you'll just keep on. So, to him, going to Hogsmeade as a dog while there were Death Eaters looking for him wasn't really a risk to him, and he was willing to do it for Harry.

I think she is really quite rude. It may only because she care too much for harry.

I wonder if Molly is as completely confident in Dumbledore and the order as the rest of them. She has always been the one to side with the ministry, to try not to oppose them. While she is obviously looking after her children and Harry because she loves them, perhaps she takes it too far? Stuff like her siding with fudge in POA, and believing everything Rita Skeeter said in GOF, it worry's me sometimes.

Originally posted by Severely Snapped (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=424957#post424957))
Wow! Exellent analysis, Inkwolf. I think you have pegged the late Mr. Black to a 'tee.'

I've always gotten the feeling that Rowling never really knew what she wanted from this character, or where to take him. In PoA, he's an escaped and dangerous lunatic until the very end, after which two paragraphs of explanation and the fact that he bought Harry a Firebolt are supposed to convince us he's wonderful. In GoF, he really IS wonderful, and even sort of responsible: he looks out for Harry, gives him sound and sensible advice, and even buries his feud with an old enemy to fight Voldemort.

But I was very disappointed with Sirius in this book. He acted like a spoiled child most of the time, and wasn't any sort of support to Harry at all--in fact, he seemed downright resentful of the people who COULD (and were) trying to help him. People like Molly, for instance. I thought it was a poor way to treat a character whose death was supposed to devastate us all.


I think that's a bit unfair. The only reason Sirius was a dangerous lunatic for most of POA was because that was what we were lead to believe, that Sirius had killed Wormtail & those muggles all those years ago, and so everyone believed that he deserved to go to Azkaban and he must be dangerous and crazy to have done that. But he didn't do it, so you don't need more than a couple of paragraphs of explanation to see that Sirius wasn't really a deranged lunatic at all, but an innocent man who'd been blamed in part for the death of his best friends (Lily & James) and then blamed in full for the murder of the person who actually did it. No wonder he was bitter about it.

Also, I don't think that Sirius acted like a spoiled child. Sometimes he was a little moody and sour, but that's only to be expected seeing as he was stuck inside with nothing to do. I'm sure he understood why it was important for him to stay inside, but he must of got restless at times, it doesn't seem like it's in his nature to stay inside and do nothing when he could be out there, being a bit more pro-active, yet for the large part he did.

I don't know, I never saw Molly as particularly rude. I guess they were both trying to look out for what they thought were Harry's best interests.

I have to admit that I found Sirius's remarks to Harry about how he was not like his father somewhat disturbing. It's never a good idea to compare people like that and those comments really showed that Molly was right in pointing out that Sirius thought Harry was a duplicate of his father.

Molly hit below the belt with the Azkaban remark. Up to that point, she was acting as a concerned overprotective mother who didn't want one of her children needlessly exposed to danger (and let's remember she's taken that stance before with reference to Sirius, in PoA).

Now, as to the other debate raging here. Both Ink and Lestrange are right. How can that possibly be?? Well, :) Sirius was a vital human being who was used to fighting for what he believed in, so being caged like an animal with things that reminded him of his abused childhood (and yes, he definitely was abused...As a matter of fact, it looks like Harry's childhood away from Hogwarts up to his fifteenth birthday was a picnic compared to Sirius's childhood in the summer) was physical and mental torture. But that does not justify his rekclessness and desperation to get out of the house (which very easily could have lead to his capture though personally, I don't think either band after him is particularly fond of Veritaserum and I'm positive that Sirius would let himself be tortured past the point of insanity before he revealed anything) but it makes it undersatndable. It was like being inside Azkaban again, only he was forced to be his own jailer. Now then, in starting the DA and setting up Hogsmeade meetings Sirius was both giving his assent to a viable suggestion (I feel certain that if James and Lily were alive they'd have approved of it but would have ordered even more caution than Hermione did) and trying to live vicariously through Harry. However, as to his actions on the night of the raid on the D.O.M., in doing nothing he would have proven himself unworthy of James and Lily's trust in making him Harry's godfather. What's more, Snape couldn't bale him out this time because Snape couldn't afford to have his cover blown. If Sirius had not joined the initial rescue party, Harry would have been killed and all hope would have been lost. The only regrettable thing that he did that night was taunt Bella. Had he not taunted her, she would have looked up, seen Dumbledore, and fled. However, Harry may still have gone after her (maybe through Voldemort's manipulation). If he'd gone after her without Sirius' death fresh in his mind, he probably would not have been able to expel Voldemort and Dumbledore's unwillingness to kill Harry would have been the cause of his own death. Now that would have been even more tragic than what actually happened.

Molly was just being herself. She was worried about Harry and everyone else and she was also going through a tough time herself (Hence the name of the chapter: The Woes of Mrs.Weasley!). She had so much on her mind and was preoccupied with The Order of The Pheonix, the safety of their own family and also Percy. You can't really blame her, can you? She was a bit moodier than usual but I guess it was because of everything that was going on. I think Sirius also showed somewhat of his own irresponsibility in this book. He was a great godfather to Harry but there were times where he made risky decisions. But I love Sirius all the same.

Actually, we agree on most of this. It's just that at the very end of the conversation she started in on her saber-tooth tiger method of conversation and hit below the belt (very unlike her). It was brought up that maybe she doesn't have confidence in Dumbledore. If anything she has more confidence in Dumbledore than the rest do. She's scared, but she figures as long as her children (Harry, and possibly Hermione, now, among them) are with Dumbledore they will be safe. Harry, probably more than anyone else there knows Dumbledore's true limits. His awesome power, but also his humanity and fallability. It'll be interesting to see how things play out now that most illusions have been ripped away. It will also be interesting if Harry survives and evil survives (a successor, say, Draco Malfoy or Lucius, or Bella appears) how he will handle being treated as omniscient and omnipotent (the way the majority of wizards treat Dumbledore now).

Yeah, i agree with jordmundt6 on that one. It seems to me that we all agree that most people look at the situation in one of two ways:

a) Molly cares about harry, but her comment regarding Sirius and Azkaban was unlike her, and not nice.

b) Molly cares about harry, and there was nothing rude in what she said. (People taking this point of view mostly seem to think that the fault lies with Sirius - not all ppl, just most).

Personally, i'm with (a). It wasn't sirius' fault he was locked up in Azkaban, he was completely innocent. And also, since Sirius left Azkaban, he's risked everything to help Harry - i don't think there's much more you can ask for in a godfather, and even, perhaps, a father.

I can understand that Molly finds Sirius irresponsible - and as mentioned earlier, Molly and Sirius both have Harry's best interests at heart, but take opposite views as to what is best for harry - and thus, they clash. Most of the time, i think they're both a bit extreme - but i think sirius has a better feel for what's good for harry. And it's generally Sirius, not Molly, who gives Harry the sort of support he needs most.

On the note of Sirius being irresponsible - we've talked about that here before. But since this thread is quite long, i'll summarise what i said earlier:
- Sirius just cares a lot about harry - he risks everything, including his own life for him. And he really loves harry.
- Sirius is not irresponsible - all the risks he takes are at his own cost - and if anything, that shows how much he cares about harry.
- Sirius is *not* a spoilt brat, or anything that implies. He feels lonely at the thought of harry leaving - but who wouldn't be? 12 years in Azkaban, and then being locked up in the hated house of his childhood? I think he could've put on a braver face at harry's departure - but really, compared to what he does for harry, i think it's unreasonable to expect him not to show his feelings. That's just a tiny thing compared to all the big-hearted things he does.

Anyway, i just realised this thread is on Molly, not Sirius :lol:
But anyway, SIrius' character seems to have become central to this discussion... ^___^

obviously, molly and sirius both care about harry! it seems like they both want to be most important to him, a second set of parents instead of a second mother or a second father.

and sirius's actions may have seemed irresponsible or overly risky at times, but they were always based on harry! two things i can think of out of OotP:
1) while harry is in umbridge's office talking to sirius and lupin, he wonders why sirius never mentioned how uncomfortable it is to talk out of the fire
2) right after sirius dies, harry thinks that sirius has always done whatever it took to be with harry (remember, this is what makes it sink in that sirius is really dead)

and the big thing - sirius broke out of azkaban to protect harry! that's pretty responsible, i think.

at the same time, molly was just concerned about harry, whom she considers to be one of her kids. its natural that she forgets herself and sirius when she's upset about harry. an explanation, not an excuse.

Yeah, i think MOlly does forget herself when she makes that comment - she says it in a temper, and not to deliberately hurt Sirius, which, i suppse, says something about her character.

It says in the book, that before she spoke, her "lip curled". Now, i can't say i can remember someone's lip curling, but it seems to be the sort of expression that one gives when they're angry - snape does it a lot... but i'm inclined to think that Molly spoke out of a mad rush of anger, perhaps even a touch - and jsut a touch - of spite. I don't think Molly is spiteful generally, but that comment was just cruel - and i think her anger on harry's behalf might have brought out the worst in her. That's just a suspicion, though.

@aggiemuggle - yeah, good two poitns - i just thought i'd add the relevant quote for the 2nd point, i think i might have already mentioned it on this forum, but anyway:
"Sirius had risked everything, always, to see harry, to help him... if sirius was not reappearing out of that archway when harry was yelling for him as though his life depended on it, the only possible explanation was that he could not come back..."

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=423933#post423933))
Sirius's remark about 'You're not like your father' was emotional blackmail, pure and simple.


Inkwolf, I completely agree with your assessment of Sirius, especially the line I quoted above. His intentions were good; he genuinely cared about Harry: but he expected Harry to be just like James in terms of recklessnes. He wanted Harry to be just like James, in fact, because he wanted to have a part of his best friend living on through Harry. Unfortunately, both Harry and Molly knew that Sirius had the tendency to be reckless, and that this recklessness put not only Sirius himself at risk, but the Order and Harry as well. Now about the "You're less like your father than I thought" line: this was unnecessary. (Necessary to the plot, but unnecessary in terms of personal consideration.) He did explain this comment with "The risk would have made it fun for James", but what he should have remembered is that this is a *highly* sensitive subject to Harry. Harry, who subconsciously sought inspiration and motivation from his father's memory, and who basked in the concept that he was so similar to his father. To have someone he cares about and whose opinion he values highly actually tell him that he's less like his father--that he disappointed Sirius, even--is just plain emotional blackmail. I'm sure that Sirius didn't seriously want to hurt Harry's feelings, but at the moment he himself was feeling disappointed at not being able to get out and about, so he projected his resentment onto Harry.

About Molly: I'm sure she must be feeling guilty after Sirius's death, considering the tension between them. She wasn't "rude" at all, IMO, because her intentions were good but her methods were bad. Both she and Sirius had good intentions, but their perspectives clashed with one another.

Hmm,i can't say i agree that it was emotional blackmail, Earendil.

I don't think what sirius said was nice - but the thing is, blackmail implies that he was trying to get get harry to meet him at hogsmeade by saying that - and he left the fireplace almost as soon as he'd said that. Again, i don't think that was nice, but if he was trying to blackmail harry into coming, leaving at that instant doesn't seem a very good way to have got what he wanted, particularly since harry couldn't have changed his mind by sending an owl, as letters were being intercepted.

Also, i don't think his words were calculated - rather, they were impulsive. That makes more sense to me, anyway - Sirius seems the type to say hurtful things without intending them to come out that way, rather than meaning them to be hurtful - and also, i really can't see sirius hurting harry on purpose.

I agree with you (Earendil and Inkwolf) , about Sirius wanting Harry to be like James - but, apart from that one thing that SIrius said "you're not as much like your father", etc, he doesn't really let that out to harry that much. He lets it out to the others, since molly picked up on it, but i think that particular example is the only time that sirius lets slip what he wants harry to be like - in front of harry.

She wasn't "rude" at all, IMO, because her intentions were good but her methods were bad.
Well, i guess it depends on how you define "rude". But the main thing we agree on, i think, is that what she said was inappropriate, and hurtful - which, IMO, is worse than being rude.

I think Molly is just very aware of the dangers that lie ahead and is unwilling to do anything that might have a bad effect on harry. she's always been there for him, and doesn't want to lose him, you know? she's just being overprotective. could be handy, though...in future books I mean, having her around to keep him safe. she really does love him, remember the boggart!

I still stand exactly where I stood when this thread was started - both Molly and Sirius crossed a line because of stress and other understandable factors. Both were rude and should have been more considerate. You can't blame Molly for caring about Harry. I have the nagging feeling she really did feel that Sirius was partly to blame for Harry being stuck with the Dursleys, and that she couldn't blame him for it but forgot under pressure. You still can't excuse her behavior...you can't excuse the line she crossed...and you certainly can't excuse her for not realizing the severity of what she did...but you can't really blame her either. As for Sirius, Harry did seem to be a lot like James, and for a lonely man who could find some comfort in it, realizing Harry wasn't his dad while he was lonely again wasn't pleasant. He said something along the lines of "emotional blackmail," but how hard would it be to hear something you've been nagged about for months out of the mouth of one person you could expect to say otherwise?

Both of them really love(d) Harry. They just love Harry in different ways. Molly is a mother twice over, and Sirius was like a father and a brother. For the Boggart...it was Molly's boggart, yes, but Sirius stared at the spot where it was for awhile after it was gone.

But I can't stay mad at Mrs Weasley. I hope she isn't upset by this in the next book. To be honest, I think she might be more sorry for Harry than Sirius. But it might make her appreciate how much Harry cared about his godfather, even if she didn't approve. I don't think she would ever have wished death on Sirius, certainly not at the expense of poor Harry.

Agreed, Cat. I do think she'll be more sorry for Harry than anyone else - that's just how her mind seems to work. I can't see her wishing death on many people, if anyone. I think that Hermione's opinion of Hagrid for the majority of OotP works well for Molly towards Sirius - she was very exasperated by the things Sirius was doing, unnerved and upset by just what he did and its effects, but she didn't wish him ill no matter what she said when she was upset. Molly and Hermione are at least a little alike.

I looked and found nothing about what my question is, though daveydee did mention Mrs Weasley's woes. Sorry if this is a repeat but I made sure it wasn't.


Ok, so Fred and George left Hogwarts and Ron is talking with Harry and Hermione about how his mum is going to blame him. Hermione didn't think she would, and from the scene once they got off the train, she didn't look it. Fred and George were with Mrs Weasley, and all of them were smiling. She didn't mention anything to Ron either, and the content look on her face never changed.

Do you think she had already yelled at Fred and George, but not Ron since she knew it wasn't his fault? Or did she remember the visions of the Boggart and realize she had to live life to the fullest, be kind with her kids, and make the days with her family as pleasant as possible. Seeing Ron on the train, safe, made her forget all about how angry she had been.

Or was she saving it all for the trip back to Grimmauld Place/ the Burrow?

More importantly, do you think things will change in her mood and maneurisms in the next book?

* A dream is a wish the heart makes *

Kristy

I think she has already 'lost' one son, and she knows Fred and George are good kids. They know what they want to do and she is encouraging them now to follow their dreams.

Strange as this may sound, Harry's endorsement of the joke shop (giving them his winnings) may have also influenced Mrs. Weasley. Especially if she heard what he told the twins about everyone needing some laughs since with Voldemort around there wouldn't be too many. She could attest to that!

I think Mrs. Weasley gave the twins a token fuss about leaving school, but was probably quite proud of how they left. I wouldn't be suprised if McGonagal let the Weasley's know what the twins did to Umbridge. As Dumbledore said, the Order has ways of communicating with each other beside the floo network.

Mrs. Weasley, as much as she gets quick to anger, is obviously a good mom. She *still* cares about Percy despite everything he's done ("what if something happens and Percy and I had never made up?" and she still knitting him sweaters) and she forgot all about her anger with Fred and George at the Quidditch World Cup ("What if You Know Who had got you and the last thing I ever said was how many OWLS you'd gotten?")

I think she put up a bit of a fight, but then got over it in the face of bigger problems. Like Harry, for instance. She must know how he feels. Especially after the boggart. As much as she doesn't like Sirius, she is fully aware that Harry did.

She got over it. Quick.

Especially since Fred and George seem to be pretty successful - already buying dragon skin jackets.

I do not think Mrs. Weasley will yell at Ron, I do however think she yelled the twins ears off

I am definitely on Inkwolf's side in this discussion, but there are some great posts here on all sides!

I am looking at this as a mother. And one thing you learn as a mother is to look out for someone beside yourself. Having one or two children is a major responsiblity - but look at how many Molly has! Charlie, Bill, Percy, Fred, George, Ron, Ginny, and add Harry and Hermione. Yes some of them are grown, but she loves them and they are all her children. Now, contrast her responsibities with Sirius Black, who has one godson he can only live with a few days at a time, with whom he has spent one Christmas, with whom he has eaten only a few meals, and it is ridiculous! Sirius has Molly and the children cleaning up the house for him while he feeds rats to Buckbeak and sulks in his room! And I think it is significant that Lupin is the person who comforts Molly in the boggart scene. He seems to understand what the return of Voldemort could mean to people with families in a way that Sirius doesn't.

Of course Sirius is Harry's friend, mentor, confidente, and father-figure. He is a brave man. But is he a responsible parent? Not in my book, I mean this book, lol.

There are two scenes in the kitchen where Sirius almost comes to blows with people. One is with Molly, and one is with Snape. It is a plot device, I am thinking, to show what makes a parent, a parent. The setting of the kitchen makes it a domestic scene. Molly and Snape both mention Azkaban, and I think there is a reason for this. Sirius likes to point out his connection to Harry as his godfather. He knows Harry loves him, and he seems to love Harry in return. But in my opinion, love is not the only trait of a good parent. Sirius just hasn't been there enough. Azkaban has kept him from having a real life, which is sad, but you can't suddenly become a father overnight. Sirius, however, seems to think the title of "godfather" makes him a real father. Not so.

Real parents who are there day in and day out have to be a combination of drill sergeant, policeman, disciplinarian, cheerleader, teacher, and protector. Molly and Snape definitely take on these roles, while Sirius mainly wants to be Harry's friend and protector. He belittles Molly and Snape, in my opinion, when he tries to point out his "closer" connection with Harry. But just because Molly and Snape tell Harry what to do doesn't mean they don't care about him. He jumps all over Snape because he tells Harry to sit down! It was no surprise to me that they both got huffy with Sirius! And Sirius is quick to pull out his wand and point it at Snape, not the other way around.

Someone posted that Sirius and Harry are just alike, but I disagree. Harry is a fifteen year old boy who acts rashly, but he is never cruel. And we see in Snape's memory the kind of boy Sirius really was, straight from the pen of J. K. Rowling. It is really ironic that Snape says Harry is just like James (arrogance), and Sirius says he's nothing like James (avoids risk). But Harry is as different from his father as he is from Sirius. He isn't vain, mussing his hair or showing off with the snitch. He isn't cruel enough to humiliate someone the way James treated Snape. He's got alot more in common with Snape than with his father or Sirius, in my opinion.

And I'm happy that Molly wants to protect him. We are told over and over that the love of a mother is what helped Harry defeat Voldemort before.

Molly is more of short-tempered than rude.... She's not the most laid-back character from the HP series...

I can't blame Molly for being rude and angry. Well, she was kinda..mean to Sirius, and he died..aww..
Anyway, her whole family is in danger. They're in the Order. That's taking a big risk. She's probably worried and there's alot of things going on in her mind. Maybe she needs to take it out on someone..all the stress..and..yeah..

I can understand where Mrs. Weasley was coming from in that particular argument, as well as I can understand Sirius.

Mrs. Weasley has technically known Harry longer than Sirius has (Sirius may have met Harry as a baby, but that doesn't really count). Sirius was in Azkaban for most of Harry's life, and Mrs. Weasley met Harry was he was only eleven. She was the first person in his life to ever act like a parent, and since he has no family that loves him she feels it's up her to take care of him and bring him into her own family. She's kind of of like his surrogate mother. Sirius is Harry's actual godfather, which causes him to feel as if it's his obligation to care for Harry too.

Molly and Sirius both want what's best for Harry. Sirius, however, doesn't always know exactly what's best for Harry. Molly had a better idea of it, being a mother of seven already. I'm not saying Sirius was a bad parental figure, it's just that Molly knows a little better.

If I were her I would be stressed too! Her whole family is on the line. She, her husband, and two of her children are in the Order (four, now, since Fred and George are out of school and will probably join soon). One child refuses to speak to her. Two are still in school, but are in just as much danger as the other five. And on top of it all she's worried about Harry.

I don't really like to say this, but at times, I despised Mrs. Weasley more than Professor Umbridge. Mrs. Weasley was just...just...rude. Whereas Umbridge was your typical bad person. Some the comments Mrs. Weasley made to Sirius just made me stark with indignation.... :wow:

I was angry at what Molly said to Sirius. But i found what she said more out of temper than being rude. I think she honestly likes Sirius only she doesn't agree with how he treats harry. She's too motherly to Harry. that ticked me off. even though it was really sweet what she said about Hary being as good a son, it still annoyed me because she was dissing sirius.

When I look at it objectively, I see that she wasn't trying to be hurtful. She had Harry's best interests at heart, just like Sirius, but she did cross a line. I don't think she meant to, but sometimes, in anger, people say things they don't mean. I'm positive that she didn't despise Sirius, nor did she wish him to die, she was just wary and frustrated because she, like Dumbledore, wanted to protect Harry. However, when I'm not trying to be objective, I can't help but be miffed at her. She should've known better (well, maybe not. I mean she didn't exactly think about what she was going to say before she did it). Personally, I think she might have been a tad jealous of Sirius, Harry seemed to take his side, want to live with him, etc. Sirius was Harry's godfather, his dad's best friend, and even though Mrs. Weasley has known Harry longer, and even though she is very motherly towards him, Harry has confided things to Sirius, asked his advice on things, which I don't believe he ever did with Mrs. Weasley. (Objective side speaking now) I do wonder how she will react to his death. I hope she doesn't feel guilty or anything because even though they stood at two opposite poles when it came to how much Harry could handle, I don't think they disliked each other.

I actually don't think she crossed the line, Nightingale. I think she acted how any loving mother would have acted under the circumstances. I mean, Voldie's back, she's under a bunch of strain, nearly all her family is in the Order, risking their lives, she knows that Harry is risking his life by simply existing, and at the thought of disobeying DD, who has always kept Harry safe, she got a little flustered. His best interests were at heart. She simply saw Sirius as being reckless, which we can assume he was a lot of the summer due to being couped up in that house, and wanted to make sure that Harry was taken care of and protected.

And as a mother, she feels that motherly bond with Harry, that also factors in there.

Granted, I didn't particularly like Mrs. Weasley's new behavior (if it were me, I would have felt terribly smothered) but it is understandable. Completely.

I do wonder how she will react to his death. I hope she doesn't feel guilty or anything because even though they stood at two opposite poles when it came to how much Harry could handle, I don't think they disliked each other. I think everybody in the Order will react badly to the death. Everybody will feel slightly guilty, but everybody in there understands the risks and knew that this was part of the risk they were taking on being in the Order. Despite her attitude towards Sirius, I am sure she liked him too and is sad to see him gone.

I wanted Sirius to curse Mrs. Weasley. Sirius was the s*** and was so tight and she was doggin on him thats not even chillback. Sirius isnt a moron, he had to live on his own @ a young age and he survived Azkaban...he is a smart guy...before then I always like Mrs. Weasley....

in mrs weasleys defense she just found out that sirius is innocent after believing him to be a rutheless killer for all those years and all she really wants is for all those she loves to be safe and protected and she has to put them in jeopardy if i were her i would be a little testy too

n I understand where Molly is coming from. Even if she went a little overboard. Sirius was behaving a bit childishly. I believe from being cooped up for so long in His house unwillingly. He likes to rome free. I don't think she disliked Sirius she just was afraid he was telling the kids to much.

She's overly protective, sometimes you got to give children the facts. And she wouldn't let them have enough. I am in a way the same. I have a little brother who I often try to sheild from things, and my own mother is not quite as bad as Mrs. Weasely, but she's also very protective.

So I know where she's coming from, but she definetely needs to loosen up. I would'nt say she was trying to be angry or rude. She just wanted it her way or no way at all. In a way she's alot like a child too.

Mrs Weasley knows that Harry is practically an orphan in the wizarding world. His parents are dead and Voldemort is after him. Also, Ron is her son and Harry's best friend. By protecting Harry, she is also trying to protect Ron who is with Harry most times. That is what mother's do. Sirius, on the other hand misses his best friend James and sees a lot of Harry in him. He wants to protect Harry of course, but also wants Harry to be a man and not coddled. I think Mrs Weasley was rude in how she handled Sirius, but it was out of motherly love and protection. Plus, she sees that Sirius has cabin fever and his judgement may be off. I think she is afraid because of his imprisonment in Azkhaban and also being in hiding he may make rash decsions that may put Harry in danger unintenionally. She is being the voice of reason. But unfortunatley comes off rude in OOtP. Anyone would be lucky to have her as a mother though. :)

Ever since Molly had the visions with the Boggart, she can't stand to lose Harry either. She knows Sirius is a troublemaker, and loves being wild. She doesn't want Harry to pay for this irresponsible series of actions. Therefore her anger is really worry but she does not know how else to make it come across.

Ever since Molly had the visions with the Boggart, she can't stand to lose Harry either. She knows Sirius is a troublemaker, and loves being wild. She doesn't want Harry to pay for this irresponsible series of actions. Therefore her anger is really worry but she does not know how else to make it come across.

Troublemaker, irresponsible, and wild? I believe that's a bit harsh. Sirius may been alittle reckless, but thats just part of him. I really don't blame him for it. AFter being wrongly accused, and locked up, who wants to stay in hiding and not even go outside to enjoy the fresh air? And nowhere did Sirius even cause irresponsible series of actions. Maybe he did take a risk or two, but it never harmed anyone. I don't think that she did not how make it come across. If she didn't, then she was alittle tactless. She has never had an argument with another adult about parenting Harry. Sirius is his godfather, he cares for Harry too. You can't just make him sit down and watch everything just happen. And every little risks and recklessness, it was for Harry!! He was being selfless.
I think that Molly was just being motherly and protective of Harry, and didn't want him in danger. So, it was just a moment where she lost her temper. I think that Molly considers Sirius okay, but still, she kind of crossed the line. And Sirius too, perhaps.

. She has never had an argument with another adult about parenting Harry. Sirius is his godfather, he cares for Harry too. You can't just make him sit down and watch everything just happen.

She never argued with other adults because none of them treated Harry the way Sirius did. I agree that as Harry's godfather,Sirius wanted to feel involved, however, the way he cared for Harry was reckless sometimes,it wasn't only dangerous for himself ,but also for Harry.As many people had said in the thread, Molly was a little over-reacted but she had good reasons for doing that.Harry was as good as her own son,therefore,keeping him safe was all she wanted.

I'm sure that,as a member of the Order,she,like everyone else would feel really sad about Sirius's death.I don't think she hated him,as long as Harry wasn't concerned, she and Sirius would be fine towards each other.

Sirius was obviously having cabin fever and was tired of being locked up. But he is a grown man, albeit one who has never had a real life outside of prison since he was a young man. However, you would think that would make him even more cautious. He shouldn't do anything or encourage Harry to do anything that could lead to more tragedy.

And even more than that, Sirius is a member of the Order of the Phoenix. He has a responsibility to everyone in the Order, not just Harry. No matter what his feelings for Harry are, he shouldn't have followed him to the train in plain sight of the Malfoy's and other Death Eaters. He shouldn't be fighting with Snape and Molly, who are both trying to help Harry in their own way. And he should have been careful about Kreacher, just as Dumbledore told him to, because Kreacher did betray the Order after all.

I think the ability to follow a leader is part of maturity and belonging to a group like the Order of the Phoenix. Sirius just wasn't the kind to take orders, even from Dumbledore, and he paid the price.

Yeah I thought she was really slack not just to sirius but to fred and goerge and mungundus basicly anyone she didnt agree with what they were doing. I was kinda hoping she'd be the one to kark it, she was really getting on my nerves.

I guess she feels that Sirius is still as irresponsible as a child, and not living up to his role of being godfather. As Mrs Weasley said, Harry isn't James.
She's really overprotective of Harry, and it was just shining through in that scene.


Yes but still ... you can't help but feel a little angry toward the fact that she was blowing up on him basically. Immature or not... he is still a person and deserved some what better treatment than again all mother's get this way at one point in time....


Sirius... :upset:

yes but she is more protective than she needs to be and she really didn't need to be that rude to Sirius.

Sirius was obviously having cabin fever and was tired of being locked up. But he is a grown man, albeit one who has never had a real life outside of prison since he was a young man. However, you would think that would make him even more cautious. He shouldn't do anything or encourage Harry to do anything that could lead to more tragedy.
You think that locking up people for 12 years for something they never did would make them more cautious than making them want some freedom? Sirius was a really energetic man that wanted to do things useful. It didn't help that Snape taunted him about it and Dumbledore was always telling him to stay hidden. Those things goaded him into wanting more freedom. And he didn't encourage Harry to do things that lead to more tragedy. The only things he did were encourage the DA, offer support, tell Harry the truth about what the Order and Voldemort is up to, and check to see if Harry is okay once in a while. He did encourage the DA, but what was the harm in that? It was Hermione's idea at first, and Sirius was just giving his thoughts on the matter. Harry didn't have to listen to Sirius.

And even more than that, Sirius is a member of the Order of the Phoenix. He has a responsibility to everyone in the Order, not just Harry. No matter what his feelings for Harry are, he shouldn't have followed him to the train in plain sight of the Malfoy's and other Death Eaters. He shouldn't be fighting with Snape and Molly, who are both trying to help Harry in their own way. And he should have been careful about Kreacher, just as Dumbledore told him to, because Kreacher did betray the Order after all.
Sirius doesn't have a responsibility to everyone in the order. He has a responsibility to be in the order, and do things that are part of the Order. However, even with responsibilities, there are priorities. His main priority was Harry. Sirius had a right to argue with Snape and Molly. They disagreed with him on the subject of Harry. Sirius also wanted to be involved. Snape wouldn't have even helped Harry if Dumbledore didn't ask him to. And Snape wasn't very patient with him. Yes, he should have been careful with Kreature, but Kreature was such a nutter, Sirius just couldn't stand him. He is to take the blame for that.

I think the ability to follow a leader is part of maturity and belonging to a group like the Order of the Phoenix. Sirius just wasn't the kind to take orders, even from Dumbledore, and he paid the price.
But standing up for what you believe in and giving your point of view on a subject and being an individual is also mature. He may have been reckless, but Sirius did follow most of the orders. He WAS the kind to take important orders. He didn't disobey Dumbledore, he was just alittle peeved. He only ignored the orders he thought were trivial.
He paid the price, and it was worth it . He died fighting what he was against, and to protect the ones he cared about. When Harry was in danger, I don't blame him the single bit for joining the fight in the Department of Mysteries. At that time, Harry's life was in danger, and if he risked being exposed to the public but saved Harry's life, it was worth it.

Well, for what it's worth and I only read this page: my feeling was that Molly's name is not a casual choice and reflects the fact that she mollycoddles her kids. Now, I'm not saying her fears are ungrounded or unreasonable, but I think it's fair to say that the tighter she clings the more they struggle for freedom. If she could be a bit more open and rational with them all, Sirius and all the young people, she might have more luck keeping things under control. They wouldn't have a reason to become sneaky or rebellious and would maybe be capable of making contributions and growing gradually into positions of responsibility in the order, through experience and training. But her refusal to even let them know what's going on just drives them all to greater recklessness. It will be her undoing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she have a "discussion" with Arthur in the beginning of PoA about what Harry should be told or not told? How can keeping people in the dark without their understanding why, be helpful. I think she shows complete lack of respect for the young people, most of whom she raised herself. She has no confidence in them whatsoever. Very sad.

^^A very good analysis, whizbang121, and Arissya_00, you made really good points!! A lot of people mentioned that Molly felt motherly towards Harry, and that she didn't cross the line when bringing up that Sirius couldn't exactly take care of Harry for 12 years because he'd been locked up in Azkaban because she did it out of caring and love, but I don't think that justifies it. Sirius also felt fatherly/brotherly towards Harry, and he could have easily touched a nerve with Molly if he'd replied to her saying that Harry was as good as her son and who else has he got, when he said that Harry wasn't her son, by saying that maybe she should first try to handle the oh-so-wonderful Percy, who was her son (<--mean, I know, but still), but he didn't. In fact, he didn't really say anything that wasn't related to how much infortmation should be given to Harry, unless he was replying to Mrs. Weasley's claims that Harry only had her left.

EDIT: I sound so angry at Molly in this post. I really do still like her, but at that moment, I didn't, at all, not the slightest bit.

Well, for what it's worth and I only read this page: my feeling was that Molly's name is not a casual choice and reflects the fact that she mollycoddles her kids. Now, I'm not saying her fears are ungrounded or unreasonable, but I think it's fair to say that the tighter she clings the more they struggle for freedom. If she could be a bit more open and rational with them all, Sirius and all the young people, she might have more luck keeping things under control. They wouldn't have a reason to become sneaky or rebellious and would maybe be capable of making contributions and growing gradually into positions of responsibility in the order, through experience and training. But her refusal to even let them know what's going on just drives them all to greater recklessness. It will be her undoing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she have a "discussion" with Arthur in the beginning of PoA about what Harry should be told or not told? How can keeping people in the dark without their understanding why, be helpful. I think she shows complete lack of respect for the young people, most of whom she raised herself. She has no confidence in them whatsoever. Very sad.

Very sad, but very true. This kind of "keeping-the-child-from-the-true-world" situation is quite common in families and often results in rebelious teenagers having a major row with their parents.

Well, for what it's worth and I only read this page: my feeling was that Molly's name is not a casual choice and reflects the fact that she mollycoddles her kids. Now, I'm not saying her fears are ungrounded or unreasonable, but I think it's fair to say that the tighter she clings the more they struggle for freedom. If she could be a bit more open and rational with them all, Sirius and all the young people, she might have more luck keeping things under control. They wouldn't have a reason to become sneaky or rebellious and would maybe be capable of making contributions and growing gradually into positions of responsibility in the order, through experience and training. But her refusal to even let them know what's going on just drives them all to greater recklessness. It will be her undoing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she have a "discussion" with Arthur in the beginning of PoA about what Harry should be told or not told? How can keeping people in the dark without their understanding why, be helpful. I think she shows complete lack of respect for the young people, most of whom she raised herself. She has no confidence in them whatsoever. Very sad.

So true, so sad, whizbang. It really reflects reality. :upset:

Well, for what it's worth and I only read this page: my feeling was that Molly's name is not a casual choice and reflects the fact that she mollycoddles her kids. Now, I'm not saying her fears are ungrounded or unreasonable, but I think it's fair to say that the tighter she clings the more they struggle for freedom. If she could be a bit more open and rational with them all, Sirius and all the young people, she might have more luck keeping things under control. They wouldn't have a reason to become sneaky or rebellious and would maybe be capable of making contributions and growing gradually into positions of responsibility in the order, through experience and training. But her refusal to even let them know what's going on just drives them all to greater recklessness. It will be her undoing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she have a "discussion" with Arthur in the beginning of PoA about what Harry should be told or not told? How can keeping people in the dark without their understanding why, be helpful. I think she shows complete lack of respect for the young people, most of whom she raised herself. She has no confidence in them whatsoever. Very sad.

Well put,whizbang .:) I agree with almost everything you said.However, i think Molly did what she did because she is just Molly,the mother of 7 children.One thing you should remember is the fact that the Weasleys is poor,Molly often has to deal with money problems which make her become,perhaps, too cautious and wary.

Well put,whizbang .:) I agree with almost everything you said.However, i think Molly did what she did because she is just Molly,the mother of 7 children.One thing you should remember is the fact that the Weasleys is poor,Molly often has to deal with money problems which make her become,perhaps, too cautious and wary.

Ok, I understand how one having had past money problems could cause a parent to want their children to be cautious with their finances and futures, but how does money problems coralate to mollycoddling one's children and their friends about every little thing? As far as I've seen with families with money problems, the parents give the children more responsibility and expect them in some ways to grow up faster, like getting a job by 3rd year in highschool (to pay for one's own social life), and if you're not going to University to expect to move out at least one year after high school graduation or even if you do go to universtiy, consider moving out anyway. :D :lol:

I personally thought Mrs. Weasly had gone too far in OotP when she attacked Sirius's godfather status and ability. He was in prison for a crime he didn't do. He couldn't be there for Harry, it wasn't Sirius's fault. How come she can't see the lengths Sirius has gone to be there for Harry since his escape? She acted like she thought her family was more suitable for Harry rather than a relationship Harry might build with Sirius. Molly really had a nasty disposition towards Sirius. I thought maybe she felt threatend by his "godfather" title. And I totally thought her righteous attitude was ridiculus and overbearing.

:)

I can understand why she is overprotective. But, for example, Harry has realized that he has a connection to Voldemort's emotions and he knows that Dumbledore and certain others fear he may at times be possessed by Voldemort. Why can't someone suggest to him that they can't answer all his questions until they have a better handle on this. And studying occlumency is the first step. Harry wouldn't take their silence so personally and would perhaps be more inclined to co operate and study occlumency with more attention. This is all part of the Dumbledore "tell all" speech where things Harry could have known, he simply wasn't told. I think Sirius realized that and really wanted to remedy the situation. But Molly flew off the handle.
This attitude on Molly's and Dumbledore's parts was a major contribution to Harry's ill temper throughout the book. In the end it, it left Harry reckless and unprepared to deal with Voldemort's planting dreams and visions in his mind, and led directly to the battle in the ministry and Sirius' death.

To me, it seemed like Sirius was treating Harry like a replacement for James. I think Molly was justified to be wary of Sirius' ablity as a father-figure. Sirius was more of a friend. I don't think he treated Harry like anything but James. Arthur Weasley is a better figure and had been more like a father to Harry.

You also have to take into account the amount of Stress Molly must have been under. One son has exiled himself from the family. Her husband is in iminent danger. Two more sons could be in a dangerous position if anyone found out that the family wasn't loyal to Fudge. She's got twins that seek danger. Another son seems to be a danger magnet. And her daughter nearly died at the hands of Voldemort himself.

She's obviously worried about her family. And to her, Harry's a part of that family. I think all her lashing out in Ootp is a result of that weight on her shoulders.

I never said Molly's fears were unreasonable. I'm only suggesting that given the ages and personalities of the young people involved, she could have dealt with the situation much better than she did. They live in extraordinary danger, it's true. But you can't shelter anyone from that. Harry and the Weasleys are not oblivious to these dangers. They know where they are and why they're there.

Also, they aren't exactly a bunch of little kids. Ginny is the youngest and she's 14. Molly really needs to trust her children more. Children who are ignorant are easy prey. The knowledgable at least have a better chance of recognizing danger before it overcomes them.

So I understand where Molly's coming from and why. I just think she's not handling things well, at all. Especially when it comes to the gaggle of magically powerful teenagers she's so determined to contain. Good luck!

That argument between Molly and Sirius seemed like a mother and father arguing about how their child should be raised. Mollly is Harry's mother-surrogate, and Sirius is a father-figure. They both love Harry and want what they think is best for him, but they differ in what each thinks is best. Parents can disagree about how children are raised--especially if there has been a divorce. It sounded like divorced parents having a fight about raising *their* child, and getting into the dynamics of why there was a divorce in the first place. Not pleasant or pretty, but certainly understandable.

Both contributed to the argument, and either could have *agreed to disagree* but both continued. Actually it sounded *real* which is sometimes unusual in children's books. Shows how good JKR is in writing real people.

Hi, Sinistra: Yes, Mars was very bright last night! Did you see it? Mars is very close to earth right now, in the Constellation Aquarius. It looked very bright in the Southern sky of North America last night. The Sky and Telescope Website has a good star map and you can fix it for your area.

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/choosedatetime2.asp?tz=-0.0&skychart_date=2003-8-19&hour=09&minute=00&amPM=pm&latitude=51.466&longitude=-0.0&loclabel=Greenwich%2C%20UK&

So take a look, and if any centaurs appear out of the woods, ask them for an interpretation!

:huh: Now, back to the topic: I think that all the scenes seem very real in Grimmald Place. That may be because the setting is a house, although a strange one, and it isn't as cartoonish as the Dursley's perfect home seems to be. Mrs. Weasley also seems like a real woman with real fears. After reading this thread, I am wondering if anyone can win an argument against Sirius Black, since his character is so popular. I think it is interesting that most of the men in the kitchen scene agreed with Sirius that Harry needed to be told more. So maybe Rowling is contrasting the views of a mother against those of a 'father-figure' as some have pointed out.

Here is a sort of mirror-image of the whole Molly/Sirius discussion, but it is between Hermione, Ron, and Harry, right after Harry is cleared in the hearing. Keep in mind that the children are cleaning the house while they are talking. Sirius, though, seems to hiding in his room. Is this the behavior of a good father figure? Has he really got Harry's best interests at heart?

Chapter 9, pg. 158, American Edition:

Sirius had put up a very good show of happiness on first hearing the news, wringing Harry's hand and beaming just like the rest of them; soon, however, he was moodier and surlier than before, talking less to everybody, even Harry, and spending increasing amounts of time shut up in his mother's room with Buckbeak.

"Don't you go feeling gilty!" said Hermione sternly . . . "You belong at Hogwarts and Sirius knows it. Personally, I think he's being selfish."

"That's a bit harsh, Hermione," said Ron, . . " you wouldn't want to be stuck inside this house without company."

"He'll have company!" said Hermione. "It's headquarters to the Order of the Phoenix, isn't it? He just got his hopes up that Harry would be coming to live here with him."

"I don't think that's true," said Harry, . . . "He wouldn't give me a straight answer when I asked him if I could."

"He just didn't want to get his own hopes up even more," said Hermione wisely. "And he probably felt a bit guilty himself, because I think a part of him was really hoping you'd be expelled. Then you'd both be outcasts together."

"Come off it!" said Harry and Ron together . . .

"Suit yourselves. But I sometimes think Ron's mum's right, and Sirius gets confused about whether your're you or your father, Harry."

:rolleyes: Whether you love Sirius or not, you have to wonder why Rowling as a writer is repeating this information. Maybe what she is really doing is comparing Sirius to other men in the book who are like father-figures: Dumbledore, Snape, Lupin, and Mr. Weasley. Of course Sirius is not as free to move around as those characters, but he also doesn't seem to make the best of the situation.

I have to agree with you there, Sirius was being grouchy and making Harry feel bad, whether he meant to or not by just how he was acting. Also agreed that he could have made the best of the situation and at least been happy that he was with his best friends son and his other best friend, at least part of the time, in the Order fighting for what was right, instead of stuck in Azkaban or wandering around without a soul. However, he's human, and I'm quite sure that if I was him, I would be behaving quite like him. One doesn't always look at the positive things in life, especially when the negative things are so prevalant. He had been stuck in a house for a month, and I have to disagree with Hermione here, he didn't really have much company. The Order members came when they had meetings, and then he had to listen to Snape gloating about how he was actually doing something for the Order. Lupin probably came occasionally, but he too was away on mysterious assignments for long periods of time. The only one left is Kreacher, who, I'm sure, made Sirius more irksome. Sirius is an adult, but he's human, too. He's not perfect, he has his flaws. I think that while he was alone, that month, it gave him time to think about James and Lily, and considering that he blames himself for their deaths, it's not a good thing, and then along comes Harry, who looks exactly like James, so maybe it was bit of a consolation thing for him to treat Harry like a friend. I'm beginning to think of Sirius as less of a father figure, and more of a brother/father figure, like Dumbledore said. It makes sense when you look at how Harry interacts with him, how Sirius acts, etc.

EDIT: I added a little more about Siruis's alone time...the James and Lily part...if you're interested.. :)

Hi, Sinistra: I think that all the scenes seem very real in Grimmald Place. That may be because the setting is a house, although a strange one, and it isn't as cartoonish as the Dursley's perfect home seems to be. Mrs. Weasley also seems like a real woman with real fears. After reading this thread, I am wondering if anyone can win an argument against Sirius Black, since his character is so popular. I think it is interesting that most of the men in the kitchen scene agreed with Sirius that Harry needed to be told more. So maybe Rowling is contrasting the views of a mother against those of a 'father-figure' as some have pointed out.



:rolleyes: Whether you love Sirius or not, you have to wonder why Rowling as a writer is repeating this information. Maybe what she is really doing is comparing Sirius to other men in the book who are like father-figures: Dumbledore, Snape, Lupin, and Mr. Weasley. Of course Sirius is not as free to move around as those characters, but he also doesn't seem to make the best of the situation.



silver ink pot, I know what you mean.! I like Sirius alot, but I agree he could've been more of a fatherly father-figure. I mean he's the guy Harry looks up to most. But in a way he was being a bit selfish. compared to the other guys(father figures). He in a way paralelled what Harry was like now that I think of it. Getting all angry and locking himself up.... Maybe Harry actually was encouraged(Probably unconsiously) by it to act the way he was more-so. He was already angry and such, and here he has a full-grown man he loves more then any other living person acting the same way as a 15yr.

I think Sirius was stuck in time warp, hoping for the old times through Harry. I don't think Sirius meant to effect Harry.... But I act like sirius and Harry do sometimes, and when I know how selfish I'm being. And Sirius is a 30-something(forget his age sorry!). But whether or not he was locked up and could'nt stand it he should've made the best of it. to late for that though.

Anyways I don't blame Sirius for the way Harry acted at all. Harry is just as in control of his emotions as Sirius was(Then again that wasn't very much. :p hehe). Harry just had a lot of pent up angry and what-not as has been discussed 5,000,000x's over and over again!!!!

Also Molly, yes I think Mrs. Weasley was indeed being a real woman with real fears. She just was afraid of losing so many people she loves and holds dear to her. I think many of us would act the same way she did. :D We all go overboard sometimes...Don't we? :lol:

And Sirius definitely should've made the BEST of the time he did have with Harry and his best buds. Instead of being a dumb-ol grouch head. I've been couped in my house all summer, I hate it I need a job. And I think I've been much like Sirius was, but if I had my friends with me I would be really nice and happy. Being stuck in my house and having to wander about without friends is what has made me more cynical and cranky. But maybe Sirius reached a point of no return? Well I don't care.! He should've not been a grouchy head baby poo!!! :lol: hehe

Anyways, that's just my bit.! :D

Molly's character was a bit annoying in this book, but she did point out things that she should have although perhaps she could have gone about them in a different way. There was a lot of tension in this book coming from all angles and people, so her harshness isn't out of the loop.

I know that Molly was sort of rude but who could blame her? She has a load of stress on her back right now. I mean think about it, half of her family's in the order and seeing that they could die is really something that can turn anybody's head. And the fact that she tried so hard not to give out information to Harry is probably connected to stress. I've noticed this with alot of mothers. In the attempt to try to protect their young, they instead give them as little information as possible about the thing they dread. The thing that could hurt their offspring.

I really didn't think she was rude. Mrs. Weasley was really stressed out because of Percy. She also didn't think that Sirius was responsible enough.

...she could have dealt with the situation much better than she did. They live in extraordinary danger, it's true. But you can't shelter anyone from that.

I think Molly's handling the situation better than Sirius. To me Sirius seemed like he was playing a game with friends. He took a lot of big risks, and got caught at 9 3/4. Molly maybe too protecting, but it shows that she's got more maturity than Sirius. Sometimes I wondered if Sirius cared more about himself than Harry.

Also, they aren't exactly a bunch of little kids. Ginny is the youngest and she's 14. Molly really needs to trust her children more. Children who are ignorant are easy prey. The knowledgable at least have a better chance of recognizing danger before it overcomes them.


They're not kids, but they're not adults either. They've got independence, but they still need guidance and help sometimes. I think the Weasleys are more capable of giving Harry what needs as a young adult than Sirius.

Molly does trust her kids, but she's a mother and she'll worry forever. I'd like her less if she wasn't such a worry-wart. I think you'll agree she'd give her life for anyone in the family and Harry & Hermione too if it came down to it. You got to give her credit for loving that strongly.

I felt like Sirius was being the rude one. He was acting like a spoiled child still, willing to risk his life as well as everyone else's (not to mention the risk of exposing the order) simply because he wanted to have a more active role. Sirius was always one of my favorites, but I am not afraid to admit that his actions in book five made me seriously angry with him. And as Harry's godfather he of all people should have taken the role of responsibility. Molly was acting as a parent would, considering others, and honestly she is much more of a godparent to Harry than any of the others have been.

I felt like Sirius was being the rude one. He was acting like a spoiled child still, willing to risk his life as well as everyone else's (not to mention the risk of exposing the order) simply because he wanted to have a more active role. Sirius was always one of my favorites, but I am not afraid to admit that his actions in book five made me seriously angry with him. And as Harry's godfather he of all people should have taken the role of responsibility. Molly was acting as a parent would, considering others, and honestly she is much more of a godparent to Harry than any of the others have been.


I agree with what a lot of you guys are saying about on Sirius, it is true. He should've acted more responsibly. He was acting like a child playing a game. But its to late now, he payed for his consequences. I wonder if we see him in some form or shape in the future what he will say to Harry?

And again Ms. Weasly, well there's gotta be a worry wart hasn't there? Besides 14yrs need a lot of guidance still. Granted you gotta let them hang looser, but all parents kids want their parents to keep them safe and take care of them, whether or not they know it or admit to it...

As many of you have already said, Molly is like a mother to Harry and understandably worried about him. Even though she is rude to Sirius, it is just because she is trying to protect Harry. She is constantly fretting over the fate of her family, as is shown when she is fighting the Boggart. Considering she is the only 'mother figure' in the ootp it makes sense that she would be the most worried about everyone.

At the same time, Sirius is being a bit unreasonable in thinking that Harry needs to know everything. He is, after all, not even 15. Both of them have Harry's best interests at heart and they do, in the end, reach a compromise. Even though in this scene Molly and Sirius are rude to each other and it appears they dislike each other, it really is just a case of tempers boiling over. Both Molly and Sirius are under alot of pressure and this is expressed when it comes to the one thing they both care about, Harry.

I don't know. It doesn't feel right. Molly seems terribly overprotective to me. Smother love. Well, the results are obvious. Her kids are sneaky and devious and if they could, they would lie to her to "mollify" her. She's that kind of mother. I know. I had one. Unfortunately, I wasn't a good liar .... but Mom was. And she lied to me about everything and anything. She firmly believed that ignorance was bliss and the less I knew about anything, the better.
I'm not saying you have to tell these teens everything and expect them to take on adult responsibilities, although in some cultures even Ginny would be married and raising a family by now. But you have to respect them. They are too old to be treated like children and deserve to have an idea of what's going on and even perhaps be given small but meaningful tasks to help the order. (Not just stunning doxies.) It's good training. And nothing teaches like experience. They would be learning from the best.
It's not good psychology, but, it's all part of the plot to keep the reader in the dark until the very end. :eyebrows:

I think aside from being overprotective, Molly, like Dumbledore (who admitted he'd forgotten lately), seems to not remember what it's like to be young.

Yes Molly was very rude to Sirius. And I understand that she is overprotective of Harry,but that doesn't give her the right to be so rude.

On thing that really bugged be is when Sirius answered Fred(or George)'s question about why they couldn't ask anything,with that was their parents decsio,but Harry on the other hand- and then molly said that "that wasn't up to Sirius...." but it is!! Sirius is Harry's legal guardian!! HE HAS THE RIGHT!!IT IS UP TO SIRIUS!! that always bugged me........

Yeah, true it should've been up to Sirius to tell Harry stuff and not Molly, but she did, and well that's that. And well, there are just people who like to protect people. Though Molly I don't think would lie, she does smother. And yes, she needs to lighten up, but so do a million other people that probably never will. :( (Myself included).

Though you're right, I think Molly, like Dumbledore, may well have forgotten what it is to be a child, and well it seems that way.

Unfortenately you can't treat 15yrs like 5yrs, but they still need to be taken to be taken care of, I mean 15yrs need to be taken care of somewhat, but more they need a guiding hand and some reminders of morals and stuff. I mean Fred and George are appearently capable of taking care of themselves, even if they are a little reckless... On top of that, I think Molly is a woman who's seen so many losses in other people's lives she's afraid she'll lose her own.

But I don't think she'll change, not unless she saw that her smothering had some bad consequences. And it may. But she's not a bad mother in any means, she just needs to lighten up.

As Inkwolf said a ways back, Sirius was acting irresponsibly, not only to himself, but to others as well.... Why? BECAUSE he was wanted, and had they given him a truth potion he would have ended up giving away a lot of things. Things that might get others in prison who don't deserve. And Harry's safety as well. I mean Harry was his Godchild he's supposed to be his father figure, but the only example he set for him was a reckless one. He really didn't much think of anyon, but himself.

I do love Sirius :D, but this is what I see now that I've looked back on it.

Molly's words sounded hurting but you could tell that she respected Sirius for taking care of Harry and all but she wants is for Harry to be safe. Plus all the stress of the Order must make her get easily angered.

Molly was just being defensive because she really loves Harry, and she knew that Sirius, being cooped up, would rise to rash decisions that might not only inflict upon his safety, but Harry's as well. She was acting like a mother, and after seeing the Boggart she was extra worried about the lives of the children she loves and knows so well.

Exactly Danfan89!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D

Molly certainly had good reasons to be nearly hysterical. And worrying about her family and knowing how others had suffered losses doesn't help. For all we know, she suffered losses herself that we don't know about.
But how is keeping young adults in the dark going to protect them? Again, they don't have to know every detail, but it's important to respect them. Otherwise, as we've seen, they become devious and misinterpret the bits and pieces they pick up on the sly. This IS dangerous.

I think when Molly told Sirius that it wasn't his call to decide what Harry should know, she was refering to the fact that Dumbledore didn't want him to know anything. This is a slightly different situation. They suspected that Voldemort was active in Harry's mind, but they weren't sure how much Voldemort could influence Harry or if he could get information from him. This was a serious issue.

But I think that Sirius was right to try and tell Harry as much as he could be allowed to know. He may have gone too far. Maybe he didn't go far enough in some directions. I think Harry should have at least known why they couldn't tell him stuff, instead of being left to feel like an outsider or a bomb that might go off any minute.

All in all, I think Sirius was better at reading Harry's psychological state and helping him cope with it.

As Inkwolf said a ways back, Sirius was acting irresponsibly, not only to himself, but to others as well.... Why? BECAUSE he was wanted, and had they given him a truth potion he would have ended up giving away a lot of things. Things that might get others in prison who don't deserve. And Harry's safety as well. I mean Harry was his Godchild he's supposed to be his father figure, but the only example he set for him was a reckless one. He really didn't much think of anyon, but himself.


:no: That is NOT true. How can you say that Sirius only thought of himself? Ok, so caring for Harry is being selfish, huh? Trying to make Harry happy is selfish, huh? I think you don't understand the story. Just because Sirius cared for Harry so that he might have put others in danger does not mean he is selfish. Do you even know why he was being that way? Because he wanted to do something useful for the order. He wanted to help . So thats thinking of himself, isn't it? He was Harry's Godfather. So, what you're saying is caring for others is a bad example? I admit, Sirius set a bad example. But to say the only example he set was a reckless one is a complete insult to his memory. He also set a good one. To care for others and to stand for what you believe in. Do you seriously think locking someone up will make them feel better? Sirius isn't perfect, and by the way you guys are making it he is a complete loser.

Yeah, you say people need to lighten up, but they never get to. That is totally their problem. They do need to lighten up, but they never get themselves to. Its not other people's faults.

I repeat this one more time. Yes, Sirius paid the price for his actions. AND IT WAS WORTH IT.

I agree, these are the parts that really made me mad:

(pg. 88)
"It's not down to you to decide what's good for Harry!" said Mrs. Weasley sharply.

Actually, it is, seeing as to how Sirius is Harry's godfather, and, both legally and technically, his proper guardian.

(pg. 89)
"He's not an adult either!" said Mrs. Weasley, the color rising in her cheeks. "He's not James, Sirius!"
"I'm perfectly clear who he is, thanks, Molly," said Sirius coldly.
"I'm not sure you are!" said Mrs. Weasley. "Sometimes, the way you talk about him, it's as though you think you've got your best friend back!"

Leave it to Mrs. Weasley to rub it in.

"Meaning I'm an irresponsible godfather?" demanded Sirius, his voice rising.
"Meaning you've been known to act rashly, Sirius, which is why Dumbledore keeps reminding you to stay at home and -"

When has Sirius ever acted rashly? I've seen no proof of that.

"He's not your son," said Sirius quietly.
"He's as good as," said Mrs. Weasley fiercely. "Who else has he got?"
"He's got me!"
"Yes," said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling. "The thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?"

And she says Sirius has been known to act rashly.

Yeah, she was brutal and it was completely uncalled for. Some people are not adults and some people don't quite act like adults. Harry isn't the only one who needs to learn how to control his feelings.

I'm beginning to wonder if Molly's barely under control emotions don't make her a weak link the OotP chain. Remember when Lupin, (or was it Moody) says something like, you weren't in the order last time. Now we're better prepared. It was in the boggart scene. (Eyes Molly suspiciously.) Great target for the Imperious.

^^ Good point. She does need to get her emotions a bit more in control (I can't believe she thought Sirius was rash, with all the controlled things she spat out at him), but it's got to be hard for her, with basically all her family in danger, and with one son not speaking to them all, but she's got to do, if she's going to know vauable information about the Order. I wonder, is the fact the she wasn't at all able to do a simple spell like Riddikulus (she said herself that it was silly of her not to be able to do it) is foreshadowing to anything...maybe she was just under so much stress that she wasn't able to concentrate properly...but there's got to be loads of stress when you're actually dueling...

I know I have written a few posts that are pro-Molly, and sort of anti-Sirius, but only because of what is written in the book.

But I realize many of you are making great points here about how Molly's state of mind is no more healthy than Sirius'.

I have been thinking tonight about J. K. Rowling's attitude toward the coming battle with Voldemort, and I think many of you have a point about Molly acting too weak to deal with the coming threat.

In some ways she is a parallel to Cho Chang, who can't deal with Cedric's death and cries all the time. And there is Marietta, who is a traitor to the DA and a bit of a crybaby. Contrast them with Hermione, who, even in the face of danger, cries only fake tears in front of Umbridge and helps them all escape.

I have been reading a book about the Spartans, the Greek warriors who believed in "things worth dying for" as Sirius said. Snape says during the Occulumency lessons that people who wear their hearts on their sleeves are no match for the Dark Lord. Molly, Marietta, and Cho Chang definitely show their emotions in a bad sort of way, according to the Spartan view. I was just reading that the Spartans believed that even if a woman lost a husband or a son in a battle, that they weren't to cry about the dead. On the contrary, they were to feel proud and act the opposite of how they feel. The Spartans were taught to treat defeat as victory as long as they stayed true to their principles. I feel there is alot going on with this in the books.

In defence of Molly - and Sirius!

Molly's 'rudeness' and 'nastyness' were totally understandable considering the situation she was in - her main emotion throughout wasn't anger and waspishness directed at not just Sirius, but all of them in various ways, but an all-pervading fear.
This fear was so real - showing itself in the way she reacted to the boggart - that she tried the only ways she could to 'control' everyone in an attemp to keep them safe. She was the opposite of Sirius - so fearful, whereas Sirius was fearless, and although Sirius was only fearless regarding his own safety, I think Molly felt - with reason - that Sirius could jeopardise the safety of the others, especially Harry, by his total lack of fear.
One big thanks to JK for creating such believeable and fascinating characters!

Hmm, i haven't been around these forums for a while, but they're still as interesting as ever :)

Anyway --
Firstly, to say, nice post, Draco Serpensortia :)

Also -
Molly's 'rudeness' and 'nastyness' were totally understandable considering the situation she was in - her main emotion throughout wasn't anger and waspishness directed at not just Sirius, but all of them in various ways, but an all-pervading fear.... I think Molly felt - with reason - that Sirius could jeopardise the safety of the others, especially Harry, by his total lack of fear.


Firstly, I agree that Molly's reaction is "understandable" - after all, i think around here we all agree that she's a realistic character. But the fact that we can begin to understand why she said what she did does *not* make it right.

We all know that she's taken a liking to Harry, and has wanted to act as a sort of mother to him. But in the situations that Draco...blah pointed out, Molly's very much concerned about Harry's well being - but doesn't seem to show Sirius much consideration at all.

Also, Molly has no reason to believe that Sirius would jeopardise the safety of others. (Gimme a shred of proof). And even that is beside the point - let's say he was acting rashly: that would call for logical reasoning - not for her digging up the past and rubbing in memories that hurt most. That's just emotional blackmail.

Molly's concerns were valid, but the war seems to be bringing out the worst in her. I think Molly went a bit far when she mentioned Azkaban. You can't criticise people for things they can't help, especially if you're rubbing in a gross injustice.

I think some people are being a bit harsh on Sirius. He hadn't known true freedom for fourteen years - it's no wonder he wanted to get out of there, especially with evil on the loose and with Snape and Molly rubbing it in, and his emotional development might have been affected too. He could have been less reckless, but the whole situation wouldn't have happened without Wormtail and Crouch. If JKR wanted us to remember him as a selfish daredevil, he'd have died trying to fly his motorbike to Venus or something.

Under the circumstances, I think Sirius had good instincts and presence of mind about Harry. He only seems to lose it when Snape is around.

Somehow I think he was more on target than Molly about how much information to give Harry. Think about it, if they had told him most things concerning him, he wouldn't have been so down about Dumbledore, practised Occlumency...

And maybe Sirius might have lived. That was "part of the Dumbledore is an old man who forgot how it feels to be a kid" thing.

But I still think Molly is a weak link in the chain. And she has a mean streak when things don't go her way. Is it her family that's on the Black tapestry? Was she a slytherin or from a dark arts family?

Oh CRIMINY!! NO!! Everyone's related to everyone else here. Both Weasleys have ties to Sirius. Arthur by blood, Molly by marriage (if memory serves). Both Molly and Arthur were in Gryffindor. Molly might be a weak link like Ron is a weak link, or she might be one of the strongest assets Harry has, a mother figure with an unconditional love rather like his own. Of course she has a mean streak when her children are threatened (the whole "tigress" thing) and most of the things she's angry about are legit. As for the information. Her course turned out to be the best. Sirius' death was a necessary one and if Harry had been faithfully practicing Occlumency (probably from day one if Dumbledore found out he'd been told everything) four equally grim possibilities could easily become reality.

1. Because he's been a courageous fighter, Harry manages to start fully blocking Voldemort from his head before the holidays. He doesn't see Arthur Weasley attacked. Voldemort is stopped, for the moment, but Arthur dies of his injuries.

2. Harry is unsuccessful at blocking Voldemort and Voldemort gathers the information he needs from Harry's head without having to get the prophecy at all (probably the scenario that Dumbledore was most afraid of).

3. Harry saves Arthur, cottons on to the plan and warns Sirius not only that it looks like DEs are massing at the DoM and Voldemort is on the verge of grabbing the prophecy, but that Kreacher is a traitor (in the woods he thinks to use his mirror). Harry and his crew don't show up to face off against the DEs, but the squad from the order is overmatched and at least one of them dies (probably Sirius facing Bella).

What looks like our "best case"--similar to what actually happens except that Harry knows what's going on and manages to prevent Sirius' death. He chases after Bella as she's escaping and is confronted by Voldemort. The prophecy is destroyed but Harry is unable to cope with the hatred Voldemort unleashes during a possession. Dumbledore refuses to act and Voldemort uses Harry's body to murder Dumbledore. Voldemort then releases Harry, retrieves Bella and disapparates, laughing. The Ministry Aurors and Fudge arrive then. Harry is arrested for the murder of Dumbledore and the DEs and Members of the Order (including Sirius whose name is not cleared) are ALL thrown into Azkaban.

Whew! That was pretty intense!

Well, from the point of view of the plot progression, everything is as it should be. (Looking through the smoke of jordmundt6 last scene.) THis is how it has to be. We're just trying to understand how we got to where we are, and perhaps figure out where we're going. All of Molly's fears and concerns are entirely legit. (I've got kids, too.) But her emotional state might not make her the best person to have access to anything going on with the order. And I still think she needs to acknowledge that her children are not little kids, anymore, and trying to keep them that way is a mistake. She needs to have more respect for these individuals she has raised.

Oh CRIMINY!! NO!! Everyone's related to everyone else here. Both Weasleys have ties to Sirius. Arthur by blood, Molly by marriage (if memory serves). Both Molly and Arthur were in Gryffindor. Molly might be a weak link like Ron is a weak link, or she might be one of the strongest assets Harry has, a mother figure with an unconditional love rather like his own. Of course she has a mean streak when her children are threatened (the whole "tigress" thing) and most of the things she's angry about are legit. As for the information. Her course turned out to be the best. Sirius' death was a necessary one and if Harry had been faithfully practicing Occlumency (probably from day one if Dumbledore found out he'd been told everything) four equally grim possibilities could easily become reality.

1. Because he's been a courageous fighter, Harry manages to start fully blocking Voldemort from his head before the holidays. He doesn't see Arthur Weasley attacked. Voldemort is stopped, for the moment, but Arthur dies of his injuries.

2. Harry is unsuccessful at blocking Voldemort and Voldemort gathers the information he needs from Harry's head without having to get the prophecy at all (probably the scenario that Dumbledore was most afraid of).

3. Harry saves Arthur, cottons on to the plan and warns Sirius not only that it looks like DEs are massing at the DoM and Voldemort is on the verge of grabbing the prophecy, but that Kreacher is a traitor (in the woods he thinks to use his mirror). Harry and his crew don't show up to face off against the DEs, but the squad from the order is overmatched and at least one of them dies (probably Sirius facing Bella).

What looks like our "best case"--similar to what actually happens except that Harry knows what's going on and manages to prevent Sirius' death. He chases after Bella as she's escaping and is confronted by Voldemort. The prophecy is destroyed but Harry is unable to cope with the hatred Voldemort unleashes during a possession. Dumbledore refuses to act and Voldemort uses Harry's body to murder Dumbledore. Voldemort then releases Harry, retrieves Bella and disapparates, laughing. The Ministry Aurors and Fudge arrive then. Harry is arrested for the murder of Dumbledore and the DEs and Members of the Order (including Sirius whose name is not cleared) are ALL thrown into Azkaban.

I understand that everything happened because it was supposed to happen like that, but since it's already been brought up... (4) I've always thought that if Harry knew what was going on, including the prophecy, he wouldn't have rushed off to the Ministry so quickly. If he knew what Voldemort was trying to do, and how crucial it was to his plans succeding, he wouldv have checked more thoroughly to see whether Sirius was actually there or not.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, (1) Harry started studying Occlumency after he saw the attack on Mr. Weasley, so Mr. Weasley would have been all right. (2) Also, we're not quite sure that Voldemort can read Harry's mind that well, otherwise, he wouldn't have needed Kreacher to tell him of the bond between Sirius and Harry. (3) And, I think Voldemort wanted Harry to get the prophecy, so that he wouldn't have to expose himself, so if Harry hadn't gone, his DE's posed no threat...<--I'm not sure I entirely understood that one, so if this seems a little off, feel free to correct me about what you actually meant.

And I agree that Molly's fears are completely rational and legit, but I just think sometimes the way she responds to those fears isn't too...er..nice. I also think that she should give her children more credit, they may not all be adults, but they're nearer to that than being children, and it prevents them from jumping to the wrong conclusions by only eavsdropping on part of the Order's conversation...

Jordmunt, i can see what you're saying, but there are ways you can look at this. The way i see it is, Molly was definately rude, and she lost her head. She was nasty to sirius.

As for which course of action was best, i'm with DD's statement in the 3rd book: the course our actions takes are so diverse and complex that you *can't* predict what's going to happen.

Also note that, with, of all the possibilities you noted down, you've forgotten that Molly didn't know any of this -- and therefore you can't say that Molly's ideas were more logical because she knew all this -- the course of action she suggested was suggested from her point of view, which, on balance, is probably less logical than Sirius.

Sirius' would have been something like - you tell teenagers *something* because if you tell them nothing, they get curious, and can lead themselves into danger. He knew that from experience. Molly's was rather like that in book 3 - "tell them nothing, they'll be terrified, and they can't cope with the truth!" Or something to the effect of telling them nothing, which even DD states is not the way to go.

Having said that, even if what Molly had said had been reasonable, that still doesn't excuse the fact that she was rude and nasty.

And she hit him below the belt with the Azkban comment, too.

She was kind of rude. Sirius was doing everything he could for Harry. I think that she should have treated him better after all he is Harry's Godfather. Even if she did not like or approve of him she should not do that in front of Harry because Harry thinks that his Godfather is the best and he likes Molly as well. He would not want them to fight and he would not want to choose between Molly and Sirius when they were arguing.

And she hit him below the belt with the Azkban comment, too.

Not just below the belt, but in the teeth too. She had no right to bring up Azkaban. We all know that he is innocent and that Azkaban is the most horrific place on earth.

I havent read all the replies to this thread, but Im going to throw my two cents in anyway. Yes, Molly seemed a tad rude, but I sided with her. Don't get me wrog, I absolutely love Sirius, but she was correct. Sirius was comparing him to his father. He does act irrationally and some of the things he encourages might not be in Harry's best interest. Molly, however, is a caring and loving mother. Yes, she is overprotective, but she must be doing something right. She raised wonderful kids

I think she was just acting like a caring nurturing mother. She treats Harry as her own. She thought she would be protecting them from information that may harm them.

Well I don't think that Molly was rude, she acts towards Harry as a mother because she consider Harry as her son maybe she was too protective towards Harry thinking that Harry was too young and on the other hand Sirius was too impulsive in wanting to tell Harry everything in wanting to treated Harry as a mature adult; Lupin is the only one that try to be objective understandig where Molly come from and where Sirius com from.
Riassuming I don't think that Molly was too rude, she was stressful with the whole Oder thing and she was very, the only thig that she could have not said is the comment about Azkaban, that was a little too rude and it was no necessary.

Bye

Mirtilla

I thought that she was a bit too protective and she was a little... I don't know, intense, I guess. I mean she was really having some goes at Sirius and I didn't think that that was necessary. I think that she was just stressed out because she kept constently worrying about everyone and everything. I think that all mothers tend to worry constantly. Like if their child is five minutes late, they just know it means their baby has been abducted. :rolleyes: Mrs. Weasly was just having a nervous-breakdown.

I seem to have caused something of a stir awhile back. Sorry about that. I was responding to several annoying trends with that post--ideas that "Molly is a Weak Link" "Does Molly Care," the blame game for Sirius' death, and various other things like "Harry should have been informed sooner." I opened the door to several posibilities

1. Harry hearing the whole story earlier.

2. Harry being faithful with Occlumency.

3. Harry remembering the Mirror.

4. Sirius not getting killed.

All of these scenarios have nastier, uglier, bleaker endings than OotP's actual conclusion--as I demonstrated (as graphically as possible). As to Molly's relationship with Harry. She treats him like a son and bless her for it. She has every reason and right to be concerned for his safety and his emotional well-being if he learns too much too fast. However, I do not condone her barbs at Sirius and think everyone who has characterized them as shots "below the belt" or "in the teeth" is absolutlely correct. And I have said so in other places, with trimmings.

And I forgot one possibility--Because he is successfully repelled from Harry's mind, Voldemort loses patience and grabs the Prophecy himself. The Order isn't there to even try to stop him because they don't know what's going on. Umbridge is still Headmistress and the Ministry persists in confidently telling the magical community that Voldemort has not returned and will not do so.

I think her comment about Azkaban was less rude than people think. She was pointing out (quite rightly) that she has more hands on experience with children, not only her own but with Harry as well. She didn't bring up prison to say "ha-ha," she used it as an argument for Sirius's lack of parenting skills. Whether he was legitimately imprisoned isn't the issue here. Sirius was trying to take over what she felt to be her area of expertise. She felt that she'd actually taken better care of him than the Dursleys and certainly better care of him than Sirius, who hadn't been able to learn anything about child-rearing in prison. Just because the man's named as Harry's godfather doesn't mean he knows anything about children. Yes, he can fall back on his own experience as a teenaged boy but:
1. He grew up with an unhappy family life himself and probably wouldn't know how to make the transition from unhappy son to nuturing father even if he did understand what was lacking in his own childhood,
2. Harry isn't James, and he's also not Sirius. However connected Harry feels to him when Harry learns of Sirius's past, likely they would respond differently to these situations. Sirius relied on the Potter home the way Harry relies on the Weasley home--both need stability, and it's questionable whether the moody, rash, and ultimately risk-taking Sirius could give Harry that.

Molly can hardly be blamed for pointing out an acknowledged fact. Sirius hasn't been there for Harry (whether he willed it or no) but she has. It's her shoulder he's cried on. He hasn't opened his heart to his godfather. Molly knows this. She understands that what Harry wants and what he needs are two different things. A little knowledge has led Harry into progressively worse scrapes. If she can't tell Harry all of it (because of DD, or because Harry just wasn't prepared for it), its best to discourage his involvement with the order than to let him think he has been tacitly given permission to operate as an agent for the order and put himself into more danger. She knows better than most of the others around the table that teenage boys never think they'll really come to any harm, and that they don't do well (generally-bah! I hate to make generalizations!) taking care of themselves.

As it turns out, Harry should have been told when he came to Hogwarts everything that DD held back so that he could prepare. If he knew his role sooner, he might have been more cautious to muck around with VD's threat to his mind and might have paid attention during Occlumency lessons. We'll never know. But the order didn't end up answering many (if any) of Harry's questions anyway. All Harry learned was that there was a "weapon" the order members were guarding. It turned out to be something of a misnomer, unless knowledge can be called a weapon, and trying to discover what it was did lure Harry into danger. He wouldn't have sought out the DoM corridor if he already knew what was hidden there. Partial truths and partial information do more harm than good, and I think Molly realizes this.

I dont think it was rude, but I also dont agree with it either. She is obviuosly very sensitive when it comes to things like this. I think she was just trying to protect Harry, eventhough I think Harry has the right to know whats going on and to know that he should expect as well and thats why I agree with Sirius. Mrs. Weasley is just a worry freak, and out of worry she responded the way she did. But I thikn the way she was treating Sairus was wrong, because he is his godfather and the closest thing to a faimly Harry has, and she was basically telling him he has no word in this, which is rude.

I don't think it was rude either. She just didn't have all the information herself and didn't want Harry to have to stress about anything else.

I think her comment about Azkaban was less rude than people think. She was pointing out (quite rightly) that she has more hands on experience with children, not only her own but with Harry as well. She didn't bring up prison to say "ha-ha," she used it as an argument for Sirius's lack of parenting skills. Whether he was legitimately imprisoned isn't the issue here. Sirius was trying to take over what she felt to be her area of expertise. She felt that she'd actually taken better care of him than the Dursleys and certainly better care of him than Sirius, who hadn't been able to learn anything about child-rearing in prison. Just because the man's named as Harry's godfather doesn't mean he knows anything about children. Yes, he can fall back on his own experience as a teenaged boy but:
1. He grew up with an unhappy family life himself and probably wouldn't know how to make the transition from unhappy son to nuturing father even if he did understand what was lacking in his own childhood,
2. Harry isn't James, and he's also not Sirius. However connected Harry feels to him when Harry learns of Sirius's past, likely they would respond differently to these situations. Sirius relied on the Potter home the way Harry relies on the Weasley home--both need stability, and it's questionable whether the moody, rash, and ultimately risk-taking Sirius could give Harry that.


Vigilance: That is one of the best posts I have ever read! You have captured everything perfectly, in my opinion.:clap:

As I was reading, I realized another way of looking at this, also. Over and over we are told how worried Harry is about Sirius. He is afraid to tell him things!!! He doesn't want to be responsible for luring him into danger!!! He wants him to stay home and out of danger, because he cares about him!!! He doesn't blame Sirius for feeling frustrated over being locked up, but he sees the necessity of it, because he doesn't want Sirius to be killed.

Well, what Harry feels about Sirius is exactly the way the other grown-ups feel about Harry! Harry just isn't mature enough to see it from a grown-up perspective yet. Molly cares about his well-being the same way Harry cares about Sirius.

And Vigilance makes a great point about Sirius growing up in an unhappy home, and dysfunctional, too. He ran away from home, but he's surprised when Harry tells him how much he hates the Dursleys and wishes he could live with him. Sirius doesn't really know anything about Harry's life with the Dursleys, which is sad.

For me, the more I read the books, the more infuriated I get with Sirius' attitude. A godfather is supposed to be someone who helps raise a child, and help protect that child if the parents are gone. He can't seem to accept that others have had to take on his role.

Meanwhile, Harry needs to grow up in order to understand the fear others feel for him.

The way she said that comment was very rude. Now, don't get me wrong what she said was true. But what she said was out of anger, and that made her comment very rude. Who knows what Sirius would have said next if Lupin would have not stepped in...

You have all made extremely good arguments, and it's very hard not to see things from your point of view.

Nevertheless, I still think it was rude and really not needed. No one mentions Molly's failure at being a mother because Ginny unleashed the Serpent of Slytherin? I really don't think Molly is a failure because of this because that would just be stupid, in fact, I think she's a brilliant mother, but she's not Harry's mother, and she's really not the only one he's got.

I don't think she meant the comment as, well you don't know much about children, as you've been locked up for 12 years. I think she meant it as, you weren't there for Harry for 12 years, I've been there for 2ish years longer than you, which is cold.

It was rude on a basic level, but she has the right intentions. She is under enormous stress having 7 children to worry about at a time of rising evil. Also being in the Order is immense pressure.

Apart from these two things she has Harry to worry about, her son's best friend and an almost 7th son to her...a kid marked by the most powerful dark wizard for death. In tense time like these words can be said on the heat of the moment that seem overly harsh. In the end though, she had the best of intentions for Harry. Sirius is an adult, he can get over things like that.

You have all made extremely good arguments, and it's very hard not to see things from your point of view.

Nevertheless, I still think it was rude and really not needed. No one mentions Molly's failure at being a mother because Ginny unleashed the Serpent of Slytherin? I really don't think Molly is a failure because of this because that would just be stupid, in fact, I think she's a brilliant mother, but she's not Harry's mother, and she's really not the only one he's got.

I don't think she meant the comment as, well you don't know much about children, as you've been locked up for 12 years. I think she meant it as, you weren't there for Harry for 12 years, I've been there for 2ish years longer than you, which is cold.
I see your point of view, nightingale, and I think many, many people here agree with you, which is why this thread has lasted so long.:agree:

But I think there is a distinction between Molly, who certainly would never have encouraged Ginny to anything dangerous, and Sirius, who takes every opportunity to encourage Harry to break rules and put himself and his friends in danger. Ginny was at school when she was possessed by Voldemort, and Molly can't be held responsible for that. Even Dumbledore couldn't save her.

Sirius, on the other hand, talks through the fireplace when he knows he shouldn't, follows them to the train and is seen by the Malfoys, and is unkind to Kreacher after Dumbledore warns him against it.

Molly has been there for Harry longer than 2ish years, also. He meets her in Book 2, and OotP is book 5. So I would say 3ish. And of all the characters in the book, Molly is the most motherly, although Petunia has also been a mother-figure. At least she's been there in person, which Sirius has not.

It isn't that I dislike Sirius at all. I really like him. And sometimes I can't figure out JKR's point of view about him. On one hand, he seems irresponsible. On the other hand, Lupin and even Arthur Weasley say they want Harry and the others to know more about what is going on. In the end, the little amount of information they give the children really doesn't help them. All they hint about is a "weapon" which later leads Harry to look in the Pensive because he thinks Snape is holding back information, which leads to Snape's stopping the occulumency lessons, which leads Harry to go to the Department of Mysteries, which leads to the death of Sirius.

I still don't think Molly was out of line in warning the men to watch what they say.

No she was not out of line at all to warn against saying too much. she was being as wise as Dumbledore. Even though i believe that in this case it was wrong to err on the side of caution . Harry should have been told more. They know how he is and should have figured given the right circumstances he would have ended up at MOM. That is what they should have prevented at all costs.

But that whole thing is seperate from her Azkaban comment. That was just plain rude. She was out of line for saying that. Now don't get me wrong she is a great mother to all of the children including Harry and he needs that . Harry has no one else to fill that role in his life.
And truthfully even though what she said was downrigt cruel, I cannot say that i would not have reacted the same way if i was in her shoes.

Thanks for supporting my view, silver ink pot--

I think Molly's upfront way of getting to the point is in direct opposition to Petunia's two-faced and coddling parenting method. It's true that Molly's quick to show her frustration and anger. She tells her kids to "shut up" for example, but she always says what she means at the time. In this respect, she is unwaveringly honest about what she thinks and feels. As for Sirius, much as I like him, he's reknown for being a combative person. She respects Sirius enough to speak her mind. You don't show people like Sirius fear of them, you don't defer to them for no reason unless you plan to keep deferring. I'd say, she understands Sirius better than most--she's a right little psychologist. If he can't stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. Molly's certainly less antagonistic than Sirius is to others. Sometimes, when you know you are speaking to a rude person who doesn't particularly respect civility, you must be rude yourself.

In OoTp I kind of felt sorry for Sirius because Molly was really, sort of rude. It especially made me mad the part where she said Harry was as good as her son, as if Sirius wasn't Harry's godfather at all. Well, maybe she was kind of suspicious of him, being an escaped convict and all, but still what do you think?
:angry:
I totaly agree I was on ire when I read that part. she totaly underestimated sirius. as if he was irresposible or things like that, what even made me more angry was hermione's reaction when sirius said that he like the idea of the DA!!!! they treated him as if he was a madman... & then I think all of these atitudes towards him made him end up dead, though I do believe he died a hero's death...

I think Molly was very, very rude. And not just to Sirius, but it seems to me to everyone. Especially Fred and George. She treats everyone like a child. Telling Bill to trim his hair, and all that. She's rude to her husband, it's one thing that maybe he gets too excited about Muggle things, but she doesn't have to scream at him, or the kids. And with Mundungus, I know he's not exactly, like a good role model for Fred and George, but she doesn't have to show it so obviously, especially towards Sirius. The only thing that stops me from hating her completely is that she doesn't call Hermione Mudblood, and things like that.

Ok, I have a question about Molly...and Arthur for that matter. In chapter 9, Moody shows Harry the picture of the original order of the phoenix...the Weasleys are not in it. Why not? They must have been old enough because they graduated from Hogwarts before Lupin started school. (Remember, the Whomping Willow was planted after her time) What were they up to during Voldemort's first power trip?

Any thoughts??? I'm curious.

Well, Molly was pregnant with Ron for most of it and had 5 other boys to raise. Arthur was probably doing all he could at the ministry and keeping his head down. His remarks about fear in the face of the dark mark might explain why he didn't become an Order member, a known enemy and target. Now all of his children are in school or adults, can be taken care of by DD and the protections of Hogwarts while he's away. Lately, his interest in Muggles is so widely-known, that he'd be a target whether he was actively fighting VD or not. I think he would stand up under those circumstances, as he could be reasonably assured that his children were protected or could protect themselves. Just a thought.

Oops!--off topic.

Umm.. Well, Molly is no more rude than Fred and George themselves. Why should they be excused? Just because they're funny?

Gred and Forge are fooling around. Molly is domineering and bossy, impossible to please. And so much of her "smothering" is neurotic and self serving.

Ok, I have a question about Molly...and Arthur for that matter. In chapter 9, Moody shows Harry the picture of the original order of the phoenix...the Weasleys are not in it. Why not? They must have been old enough because they graduated from Hogwarts before Lupin started school. (Remember, the Whomping Willow was planted after her time) What were they up to during Voldemort's first power trip?

Any thoughts??? I'm curious.
Too many children to raise, plus they probally did not know the right people to be invited to join. This time around they are practically Harry's parents. The could not be any more involved in it now.

I think Molly was very, very rude. And not just to Sirius, but it seems to me to everyone. Especially Fred and George. She treats everyone like a child. Telling Bill to trim his hair, and all that. She's rude to her husband, it's one thing that maybe he gets too excited about Muggle things, but she doesn't have to scream at him, or the kids. And with Mundungus, I know he's not exactly, like a good role model for Fred and George, but she doesn't have to show it so obviously, especially towards Sirius. The only thing that stops me from hating her completely is that she doesn't call Hermione Mudblood, and things like that.
Well, persian, I respectfully disagree.

If all the things you list make Molly rude, then all mothers and wives are rude.

Most children hate to have their hair fussed with or cut. Mine absolutely hate it, especially the boys.

Fred and George are out of control alot of times. They are going around the school performing experiements on younger children, making them vomit and pass out. Hermione is just as upset as Molly would be.

All mothers compare their children to eachother. Molly has three boys older than the twins. The twins are either geniuses or criminals, depending on your point of view, but they are certainly "different" from their brothers. Molly expects them to act in a more conventional, rational way, so they clash with her.

I think you have to put her "Azkaban" comment into the context of what was happening. As JKR describes it, everyone has eaten and is sitting back quietly in a relaxed way. Out of the blue, Sirius brings up Voldemort! Suddenly everyone is tense. They are taken by surprise that Sirius wants to talk to Harry about this. It would make anyone angry, and you almost suspect that Sirius has planned it this way.

Look at another thing. This house belongs to Sirius. He hasn't lived there in 15 years. Molly is there to help clean it up for the Order. She seems glad to do it, and engages the children to help her. Sirius seems resentful about this. He doesn't want to talk about it. He resents that Snape is asking about how the cleaning is going. He doesn't seem to care that the children might be in danger from some of the bizarre things living in the house. Molly has a purpose for being there. It is not just for the children - she has a job to do, and Sirius resents that.

Another thing that seems strange is the remark Sirius makes about the Weasleys. Somewhere he says that if any family were blood traitors, it was the Weasleys. I keep coming back to that. How are they more traitorous than others? They are purebloods, right? So what does Sirius know about them that makes them more like blood traitors? I think that is a clue of some kind, but it may also mean he doesn't exactly like the Weasleys?

You're taking Sirius's comment about the Weasleys as blood traitors out of context, too. When he said that, he was sarcastically referring to his family's tradition of taking people they disliked off the family tree. In their view, the Weasley's are "blood traitors" so they have been disowned. Sirius doesn't share these views; he's been disowned as well, he's just explaining their absence in his mother's voice.

They are traitors to their blood in that they protect and promote good relations with Muggles and accept Muggle-borns as having as much right to live in the wizarding world with all the privileges of pure-bloods. This is how they differ from many "pureblood" families (note: there's no such thing as a pure-blood family, we are told in PS/SS by Hagrid, the irony of Tom Riddle is the irony of the wizarding world. Pure-blood is a myth, like the idea of a biological difference of race. It's just not there; these categories are socially, not biologically constructed).

According to the drivil the noble family of Black believes, Muggle-love is tantamount to going against your own kind. Seeker's right here, Sirius is just trying to explain to Harry.

(Still, I don't think the Weasleys are that closely related. I think there are probably strick "descended and inherited through the main line" kind of rules that determine who gets what and who's family verus who's a relation. For example, I have lots of cousins, but only those who are the children of my aunts and uncles are considered family. Don't know, maybe this is a rural, southern USA thing. You wouldn't expect your grandmother's cousins to be named in any sort of inheritance.)

You're taking Sirius's comment about the Weasleys as blood traitors out of context, too. When he said that, he was sarcastically referring to his family's tradition of taking people they disliked off the family tree. In their view, the Weasley's are "blood traitors" so they have been disowned. Sirius doesn't share these views; he's been disowned as well, he's just explaining their absence in his mother's voice.

I'm thinking of something else too.....because of instances in the book....that make me question this.
You know I used to think what Vigilance posted below:

They are traitors to their blood in that they protect and promote good relations with Muggles and accept Muggle-borns as having as much right to live in the wizarding world with all the privileges of pure-bloods. This is how they differ from many "pureblood" families (note: there's no such thing as a pure-blood family, we are told in PS/SS by Hagrid, the irony of Tom Riddle is the irony of the wizarding world. Pure-blood is a myth, like the idea of a biological difference of race. It's just not there; these categories are socially, not biologically constructed).

According to the drivil the noble family of Black believes, Muggle-love is tantamount to going against your own kind. Seeker's right here, Sirius is just trying to explain to Harry.


What IF they meant that they (the Weasleys) are related to Peter Pettigrew and he loved Lily and backstabbed James and Lily for it?
Wouldn't he be considered a blood traitor and a muggle lover??
I know, maybe far fetched eh? but my suspicion came to this when I was mulling over who gave the rat scabbers/peter to percy? and then I was thinking about who is related to Pettigrew and there were instances in the book that said protection with your family is the greatest sort of seal/protection there is.
I mean, wouldn't they also call James Potter a blood traitor and muggle lover as well? I never read them saying that the Potters were Blood traitors....hmmm.
far fetched? maybe.

We've never heard Hag Black confront a pureblooded Potter, have we? Her favorite epithet for Harry besides "freak" and "child of filth" is "half-breed." She views Harry the same way she views her grand-niece Tonks. Very much the same way that Bellatrix views Harry.

Very good observation on the irony of Tom Riddle. But you kind of lost me with that factoring in Peter in the whole mix. Where is he supposed to fit in?

I made the observation about the irony of Tom Riddle, but GryffindorGR made the comments about Peter. I presume you are really addressing her? :huh:

I didn't get that either. He's not exhibited any betrayal of blood nor has he demonstrated a love of Muggles (Lily's not a Muggle, only Muggle-born).

In OoTp I kind of felt sorry for Sirius because Molly was really, sort of rude. It especially made me mad the part where she said Harry was as good as her son, as if Sirius wasn't Harry's godfather at all. Well, maybe she was kind of suspicious of him, being an escaped convict and all, but still what do you think?
:angry:


Should we re-analyze this as well, knowing what we know now?

Should we re-analyze this as well, knowing what we know now?
Yep we know that Fabien and Gideon Prewett were close family members and this must have had an effect on Molly which resulted in her behaviour in book 5.

With herself and three members of her family once again in the Order can we really blame her for being angry and rude? Especialy to Sirius who seemed to want Harry involved in the Order and all her other children (minus Percy) begging to join this group which has led to the deaths of her family before this gives us an understanding now of A) Why she was so against everyone knowing what Voldermort was up to and B) Her Boggart episode.

Amazing how one little piece of information such as finding out a maiden name explains a question that lasted a whole book.

Were Fabian and Gideon in the Order?

I still believe that Molly's emotional state makes her unfit to serve in the order herself. She couldn't even deal with a boggart. Now I'm even more positive that she's more a danger than anything else, especially with Percy's situation. Would sell them all out inadvertently or otherwise, to try and bring Percy back into the fold? :huh: Gotta wonder.

And her attitude towards Sirius is more interesting. Where does he figure into the Prewett story? Why does she take such an attitude with him?

Were Fabian and Gideon in the Order?

IIRC, they were in Moody's photo, and "died like heroes".

My opinion of Molly has lately deteriorated, if that's at all possible. I'm thinking she and Percy had a lovely cup of tea and she told him to write that letter to Ron about avoiding Harry. There's something wrong with the woman. Why was she making love potions when she was young. Did she have to bewitch Arthur so he would marry her? And why would she bother unless she was a pureblood racist? He'd certainly had about enough of her in the kitchen scene. Somehow, Molly doesn't feel right at all.

my question is why Molly hates Sirius so much. is it just because he was convicted of killing 13 people and she doesn't believe the truth, or his house, or maybe just him. or because she's jealous that he is harry's godfather and she can't be his mom or something.

my question is why Molly hates Sirius so much. is it just because he was convicted of killing 13 people and she doesn't believe the truth, or his house, or maybe just him. or because she's jealous that he is harry's godfather and she can't be his mom or something. so if she was related to Harry, then she might get their reputation up.

I don't think Molly hates Sirius.

I think that they are very different people and they argue about their differences, that's all.

I think that Molly is very motherly, very sensitive. She cares for Harry and she is overprotective. His parents are dead, he's all alone, nobody ever loved him (pre-Hogwarts) and she knows that he is in danger.

Sirius is still a little immature and always liked to take some risks. He was in a horrible prison for 12 years and the person he cares the most about is far away.

I don't think we can blame either of them.

Molly was a little rude, but her family is in danger and she's going through a rough time. In another situation, she probably wouldn't have acted like that.
I do agree that her telling Sirius "where were you all this time?" was mean, not just rude.

Well, it's no secret I don't trust Molly Weasley. I think she's Voldemort's most faithful servant. How did Scabbers come to be in the Weasley household and in fact, come to be Percy's :rolleyes: rat?
During the row between Mr and Mrs Weasley that Harry overhears in the PoA, Mrs Weasley who doesn't want Harry to know about Sirius Black, says to Mr. Weasley that they don't even know if Sirius is after Harry. Mr Weasley loses his patience, and says something like "How many times do I have to tell you ....."
But she was right! How did she know? She knew the rat wa Pettigrew and she'd been harboring him the whole time.

Sirius said that purebloods all had to intermarry if they wanted to keep the lines pure. Why did Molly need to make a love potion when she was young?

Why doesn't she want the kids to anything about anything?
And why does she hate Sirius?
And why has she taken Harry under her wing and claimed control of decisions concerning him? Hmmmm...... She certainly has gained his trust, hasn't she? :huh:

Add to this list the dream Harry had in OotP. This is the opening paragraph of Chapter Ten.
Harry had a troubled nights sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs. Weasley sobbed over Kreachers dead body, watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns, and yet again Harry found himself walking down a corridor ending in a locked door. He awoke abruptly with his scar prickling to find Ron already dressed and talking to him.

Why was Molly sobbing over Kreacher. :huh:

If Molly is so evil, than why is her Boggart members of the family, and Harry, dying? I'm not a huge Molly fan either, but I don't think there is any evidence that she is evil.

*sigh* Whiz! Calm down! We all know that you don't like Molly!

"Why doesn't she want the kids to anything about anything?" :huh: Could you rephrase that?

"And why does she hate Sirius?" There's no proof that she does. I think that she finds him slightly imature, and that she's afraid that Sirius will take Harry from her. She has played a guardian role over him, and here comes his godfather, who has a bit more right to it than her. She also knows he's slightly careless.

"And why has she taken Harry under her wind and claimed control of decisions concerning him?" Harry's an orphan. His guardians would like to never see him again. He's never known a real mother. He's her son's best friend. I think that she's one of those people who will mother anyone who needs it.

I think that Molly, knowing that Harry has never known his mother, feels the need to be a mother to him. She is extremely protective of Harry, so when she realized that Sirius not acting in the same fashion, she became a bit upset. She saw Sirius as treating Harry as a friend, much like he treated James when they were at school together. What she wanted was for Sirius to treat Harry as his godson, and to protect him more (in the way that she thought he needed to be protected...Sirius did not agree).

Molly is a paranoid control freak with good intentions. She will mother anyone who needs it, and anyone who does not. She is extremely condecending and antagonistic to everyone who happen to disagree with her, not only Sirius. You did learn your lesson about not meddling with Muggle remedies, didn't you Arthur? :huh: :rotfl: (quoting from memory) It is just that the members of Weasley family seem to have built some immunity to her, they either do what she says or ignore her silently, avoiding confrontation. Poor Sirius just hasn't figured it out yet. (Lupin did though - he is always the most perceptive about other people.)

Originally Posted by OotP
Harry had a troubled nights sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs. Weasley sobbed over Kreachers dead body, watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns, and yet again Harry found himself walking down a corridor ending in a locked door. He awoke abruptly with his scar prickling to find Ron already dressed and talking to him.

Whizbang, not only Molly is LV's servant because she is crying over Kreacher! I just figured it out: since Ron and Hermione are wearing crowns, their kid must be a Half-Blood Prince. :rotfl:

:rotfl: That's great...

But honestly, the dream was meant to show how messed up Harry's mind was, not to tell us that Molly's evil because she was crying over an insane house-elf traitor. :D I think.

It would be my luck she turns out to be second in command of the Death Eaters.... :lol:

But she was right! How did she know?
She didn't really know. But she wanted to stop Arthur from telling Harry, becasue that's what she belived would be best for him. She was just trying to bring up doubts.
She knew Pettegrew was a traitor and she was harboring him the whole time.
ok . . . that's really going overboard . . . :roll eyes:
Sirius said that purebloods all had to intermarry if they wanted to keep the lines pure. Why did Molly need to make a love potion when she was young?
The story about the love potion was just one of those little things parents tell there kids about there childhood. I doubt it's importent to the plot, and really doubt it proves Molly's evil.
Why doesn't she want the kids to anything about anything
Becasue she's a very protective mother and thinks that what's best for her kids. i disagree . . . but she's still not evil.
And why does she hate Sirius?
She doesn't hate Sirius. She obviouly doesn't want him to get caught, just like everyone else, and she gets angry when he does things that put himself, and, in her opinion, Harry, in danger. And I beleive she resents him becasue she's jealous of the relationship he has with Harry.[/QUOTE]
And why has she taken Harry under her wing and claimed control of decisions concerning him? Hmmmm...... She certainly has gained his trust, hasn't she? :huh:
Maybe because she, I don't know, really cares about Harry.

Let's finish off with a quote.
"He's as good as [a son]

Yeah . . . pure evil. :p

Why was she making love potions when she was young. Did she have to bewitch Arthur so he would marry her? And why would she bother unless she was a pureblood racist? He'd certainly had about enough of her in the kitchen scene. Somehow, Molly doesn't feel right at all.

Can you explain where in the book you found this info?

Molly is A-okay with me. I think she just loved Harry a lot. She didn't want to tell him because she thought it was too much for a kid. Though being PO'ed with Sirius over Mundungus was not okay in my opinion, I didn't blame her for pointing out that Harry is not James.

I agreed with Molly a little actually. Sirius was trying to have Harry replace James because he was acting as if Harry was James. But he's not. And I actually feel sorry for her because she has so many people that she's loves and she is afraid that they will all get hurt because of Voldemort and his stupid ambitions. To me I saw that she was in fact a loving mother to most of the people in that room, including Harry and Hermione, and she didn't want anyone getting involved anymore then they actually are. I felt sorry for her.

If we go back 15 years to before Lily and James were murdered, we see Sirius and Molly in two different positions.

Molly is already the mother of six, with another baby on the way within the next year. She's obviously well entrenched in her role as a mother, not that anyone's arguing that she's not. She's not there to be cool or hip or be someone's friend, she's there to parent.

Sirius, on the otherhand, has just recently been made the godfather of his best friend's son. Sirius is in his early twenties at best here, and he has no familial ties or responsibilities since he is unmarried, has no children, and doesn't have the best relationship with his family. He's the young, charming, goodlooking best friend of James, who, if he hadn't been sent to Azkaban and the Potters hadn't had died, probably would have become "Cool Uncle Sirius" to Harry growing up. It's that kind of relationship where you have all the benefits of being a parent (undying love, etc.) without any of the responsibilities (i.e. discipline, actually raising the child, etc.). Sirius' role as godfather would be to be Harry's friend as he grew up.

The problem, of course, is that the Potters died and as per his role as godfather, Sirius was saddled with the job of raising Harry (not that he would have minded, I'm sure). Godparent becomes parent, a horrible occurrance in any situation, since it almost always means the parents are dead. But he got thrown into prison and never got the chance.

Coming back to the present, we see these two conflicting roles: a woman who treats Harry like her own son (like she needs another child!) and a man who should be treating Harry like his own son. Molly continues to coddle (mollycoddle!) Harry, since that's her style of parenting and she's just doing what she thinks is best. Sirius, on the other hand, doesn't understand how to parent, having grown up in a household where the parents tried to poison the minds of their children with thoughts on pure bloodlines, or having never been a parent himself and never having any real experience with children as a mature adult. The best he can do is play the cards he was originally dealt: the godfather, the adult friend to Harry. Harry is 15 by the time he gets to spend any extended amounts of time with Sirius, and 15 is sort of the age where kids think themselves to be adults and therefore beyond the reach of people trying to "parent" them. Sirius' only recourse is to be Harry's friend; he's got enough parental figures around him (the Weasleys, Dumbledore, etc.).

Naturally, this causes problems. Molly thinks Sirius thinks Harry is a clone of James. Sirius thinks Molly is trying to keep Harry in the dark but only to his own detriment. They argue, etc.

I think Molly's main problem with Sirius' "parenting" style is that Sirius doesn't really doesn't know how to set a good example for Harry. Yes, Sirius never does anything that would bring bodily harm to Harry or get him in trouble in any way, but by putting himself in the same high risk situations, he's setting the example for Harry to do the same. In OotP, Harry thinks he's an adult (he says at some point "I'm not a child!"), but he still looks up to Sirius, and may not necessarily be able to get out of the same high risk situations that Sirius might be capable of.

I think it's that danger that Molly's afraid of, because I think she thinks Sirius doesn't even realise that he's putting Harry in that sort of danger.

I wouldent say she was rude I thing she is just being protective (overly)

Grrliz, this is one brilliant post! :tu:


You really left nothing to add...

I think it's that danger that Molly's afraid of, because I think she thinks Sirius doesn't even realise that he's putting Harry in that sort of danger.
True. Moreover she might be right... But what can you do - Harry will be taking example from adults around him anyway.
Paradox: Harry might grow up well-rounded precisely because he is an orphan - he has too many role models, none of them overwhelmingly influencial.

Yes, grrliz really did think that out very nicely and made an excellent point. All I can think to add is that Molly only seems to have two modes of speech. Kindly and soft on the one hand, loud and harsh on the other. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground when it comes to reacting to things she sees as good or bad. So her reactions in dealing with how Sirius and Harry interact when she disapproves is to either be harsh or not say anything at all. This makes me pity both her for the limitation and those who are on the brunt end of it and don't understand why she reacts that way. Arthur is a pretty easy going guy it seems and makes a great husband for her in that way.

I think that Sirius is more like on the wild side and stuff and wants harry to take chances, and since harry you know, has to be very careful about what he does and stuff, since voldemort is back, thats probably why she thinks that its not the greatest idea for him to be doing alot of the stuff that sirius thinks its ok if he does...

On the other hand, Harry could not be the hero he has already been and must be in the future for the sake of the wizarding world if he were as cautious as Molly would have him be.

Molly can hardly be blamed for pointing out an acknowledged fact. Sirius hasn't been there for Harry (whether he willed it or no) but she has. It's her shoulder he's cried on. He hasn't opened his heart to his godfather. Molly knows this. She understands that what Harry wants and what he needs are two different things. A little knowledge has led Harry into progressively worse scrapes. If she can't tell Harry all of it (because of DD, or because Harry just wasn't prepared for it), its best to discourage his involvement with the order than to let him think he has been tacitly given permission to operate as an agent for the order and put himself into more danger. She knows better than most of the others around the table that teenage boys never think they'll really come to any harm, and that they don't do well (generally-bah! I hate to make generalizations!) taking care of themselves.

You brought up some good points, but I've got a few arguments. First of all, even if what Molly was saying was true, she certainly could have found a nicer way to say it . . . basically, my first impression of the Azkaban comment was "too bad you were in Azkaban all those years and couldn't take care of Harry." I know that wasn't what she meant, but it still sounded very vindictive, and bringing up Azkaban too a man who was there for twelve years, wrongly accused, is just cruel.

Second, I disagree that Harry has never opened his heart to Sirius. On the contrary, I beleive he's confided in Sirius much more than in Mrs. Weasley. It's true that he has not had as much time with Sirus, but when he needs someone to talk to, he chooses Sirius. In GOF, when his scar hurts, he writes to Sirius, without even considereing Molly. Before the first task, when he's worried and angry and fighting with Ron, he confides in Sirius and . . . "he talked more than he had in days." In OotP, Sirius is the first person to hear the full story about Harry's vision, including the fact the Harry was the snake. Even when he has trouble with Cho, wishes Sirius was there to give him advice on girls.

I also disagree that Harry wasn't ready for the information he shoulkd haev been given. I think, and in the end Dumbledore agrees, that Harry would ahev been much better off if Molly had been less protective.

Molly is a mother. SHe is also a woman. Women are possesive. Her being a mother, she is possessive and protective of her children, and that includes Harry Potter.
Yes, she was a bit rude I thought, and she is very opinionated in things concerning the children. But I guess I wouldn't go trusting a man who's been in Azkaban for years and just escaped. True DUmbledore knows he is innocent, and that should be good enough for everyone, but you just can't help getting over that feeling that he may actually be dangerous.
You must admit, Sirius does have a temper problem. Dueling with Snape and all in front of Harry, not exactly a good choice.

Molly is protecting her young. She feels those she attacked where adults and could fend for themselves. Your child could be fifty and you would still have that instinct. after all she is not shielding the children from a violent tv show she is protecting them from a murderer. I think she was very composed considering the situation. It seemed that those she was aggresive toward knew this fact from their reactions to the behavior.

I don't think she meant that Harry was as good as HER son, like he wasn't his godfather, I think she meant that she loves him as a son

I agree that she was rude, she should be like Hermione; Hermione was first rude and angry and uptight and then she chilled, Molly should take a lesson. Poor Sirius! She should lay off ppl's back...i know she cares for them but she has to give them space, PERSONAL SPACE!

Molly is a mother. SHe is also a woman. Women are possesive. Her being a mother, she is possessive and protective of her children, and that includes Harry Potter.
Yes, she was a bit rude I thought, and she is very opinionated in things concerning the children. But I guess I wouldn't go trusting a man who's been in Azkaban for years and just escaped. True DUmbledore knows he is innocent, and that should be good enough for everyone, but you just can't help getting over that feeling that he may actually be dangerous.
You must admit, Sirius does have a temper problem. Dueling with Snape and all in front of Harry, not exactly a good choice.

Good post, Melfina!

Molly was angry and her last comment was below the belt, but her concern is..understandable. She lost close relatives in the last war (maybe brothers, maybe cousins) and the idea that her teenage children could be at the center of the storm would be tough for any caring mother to take. She is right about Sirius' attitude toward Harry, but she was wrong to say what she did about Azkaban since she, like everyone else at the table, knew that Sirius was innocent and was victimized by a power-crazed--ahem--I mean results-oriented:rolleyes: leader, just like Harry almost was.

We know that Sirius would have tried to make Harry take risks because he thinks that Harry is like James so much that risks would be fun, Molly isn't doing anything wrong, I mean, what she did here and in CoS when F, G, R + H come trundling along the drive at cock crow having left no note, I would've gone psycho on them! 'Specially in those times...

I actually agree with what most of Molly was saying. I don't think she doubts that Sirius cares about Harry, but I think a lot of his actions weren't so appropriately "parent-like." I think she was mostly right in saying that Sirius was treating Harry more like James than as a godson who needs an adult in his life to not only care about him, but be an authority figure. Sirius, on more than one occasion, encouraged Harry to do dangerous things. He himself did things that risked his exposure, and for Harry to witness these things probably was only further encouragement to follow in Sirius's footsteps. Sirius let his frustration and anger about his situation speak for him before his responsibilities as a godfather, and I think Molly was worried about what this would do to Harry.

It's one of the sacrifices that parents make to put aside their own thoughts and feelings for the good of their children, and Molly understands this. I think she knows what Sirius is feeling, but also realizes that it is bad for Harry to be exposed to it. However, Sirius was a "first-time parent," so to say, who didn't get the opportunity to raise a child up from infancy like Molly did. He's suddenly got a teenager who needs his guidance as a father, and he's never had to provide this before. He's probably torn between giving Harry what he wants and giving him what is good for him. But in this case, I really think that the smart thing to do would be to yield to Molly's experience as a parent.

On a happier note, I can just imagine how loved Harry must have felt when Molly said that he is as good as one of her children. To have a group of adults literally arguing over who has more authority over what he knows based on who cares about him more. . . as frustrating as it is, it must have been a very eye-opening few minutes for Harry.

It's one of the sacrifices that parents make to put aside their own thoughts and feelings for the good of their children, and Molly understands this.

I am not sure she does.

Molly is understandably paranoid for the welfare of her children. She is right about the extent of danger they are in.
How does she choose to cope? She tries to shield kids from any information, she tries to prevent them from participating in DA. NOTE: she is the only one to think these are good ideas. Dumbledore thinks otherwise, Arthur thinks otherwise.

She behaves like many mothers do: she tries to prolong their kids' childhood. The longer her children remain children, the longer they do not have to deal with adult problems, the longer they are safe. Thus, the longer Molly's blood pressure stays low.
(Particularly questionable because Order is at war. When did Voldemort discriminate his victims by age?)

IMHO parents' sacrifice is in exactly the opposite: to teach your children what may be necessary to survive and have courage to let them fly on their own. Because they will, anyway. Parents' blood pressure may suffer though...

There is a time and a place for everything. Sirius may have needed a reminder that Harry is an individual and should not be treated as a clone of his father. However, this should never have happened in public and it should particularly never have happened in front of Harry. How do you think it would make Harry feel if he really believed that his godfather only cared about him because of his similarity to James? If Molly had quietly and tactfully gone over to Sirius at another time and said something to similar effect, Sirius might have been more willing to consider what she was saying. She then compounds her original insensitivity with almost everything she says afterwards. Sirius is right when he tells her to leave DD's instructions to Sirius out of the discussion. There was no need for her to bring up Sirius' reputation for recklessness or remind him of his confinement within Grimmauld Place. As a general note, I also wouldn't advise any person, no matter how maternal, to ask a child's godfather who else his godson has to serve as a parental figure. Then, of course, her Azkaban comment is way below the belt in every way, shape, and form, under any motivation or interpretation.

I understand where Molly is coming from. She has gotten use to being a second mom to Harry, now this less responsible ex-con comes along with a literal and emotional claim to Harry's guardianship. She knows that Sirius isn't a mass-murderer, or even a horrible person, but she also knows that he isn't ready to assume the duties of fatherhood, particularly of a 15 year old. I think she also resents, illogically but understandably, that the mere fact of Sirius's existence within the order puts her and her family in more danger. Molly is a naturally law-abiding and protective woman who has suddenly joined an illegal organization and, through Voldemort's return, has lost the capacity to protect her children. In fact, her position as an order member probably puts even the younger kids in more danger. One of her sons has left the family, two are themselves order members. If 12GP were ever discovered by the ministry, even without any other evidence the presence of a notorious criminal would put all of the inhabitants under risk of criminal charges. This isn't something she can deal with right now, so she takes her anger and anxiety out with unmerited hostility towards Sirius.

Good post, Melfina!
Thank you:D I think your Snape image in your sig is really cool. The slowed down action with his hair all breezy is kinda mezmorizing :blush:


On the Molly thing, I was thinking about something before but decided to mention now, I didn't think it was so bad that she is protecting Harry from what she thinks is not a very suitable Godfather.
What I thought she did bad was this:
She reads the article in the Daily Prophet about Hermione being devious and playing with peoples emotions and actually believes it.
How can Molly be so impressionable? She knows it was written by Rita Skeeter. Rita Skeeter, for crying out loud. Everyone knows that Rita only lies about people. Molly knew this from the beginning when she wrote bad things about her husband in the paper. Arthur even mentions around Molly all the time that Rita only likes to make people look bad. ANd Molly was only convinced that Hermione was ok after Harry told her personally that the article was a lie. If I was Hermione that would hurt me deeply. Molly should know Hermione better then that.

Not really she is a mother who worries about the welfare of her children; I think she felt justified to say the things she did and to protect her children. Times are getting tougher and rules should be obeyed more than ever before. Molly just had a lot on her mind during OotP, constantly worrying about her husband and the fact that the death eaters could just be around the corner, it is hardly surprising that she felt a little tense and therefore came across as slightly wrought up.

I think Molly just finds it soo important to protect the ones closest to her, that he doesn't want them to be anymore hurt then they have to be in life. She just didn't think Sirius had Harry's best interests in heart, so she felt like she could be cold to him.

yea id have to say..she was definitely a little suspicious and with that..most likely she was trying to be more protective of him

What I thought she did bad was this:
She reads the article in the Daily Prophet about Hermione being devious and playing with peoples emotions and actually believes it.
How can Molly be so impressionable? She knows it was written by Rita Skeeter. Rita Skeeter, for crying out loud. Everyone knows that Rita only lies about people. Molly knew this from the beginning when she wrote bad things about her husband in the paper. Arthur even mentions around Molly all the time that Rita only likes to make people look bad. ANd Molly was only convinced that Hermione was ok after Harry told her personally that the article was a lie. If I was Hermione that would hurt me deeply. Molly should know Hermione better then that.

Actually, Melfina, that article was in Witch Weekly. First Snape sees Hermione reading it in class, takes it away from her and reads it out loud. Then later, Hermione gets a tiny little Easter egg from Molly, and she asks Ron if his mother reads Witch Weekly, and he says he reads it for the recipes. so Hermione knows that Molly saw the article. It is rather amusing, but Molly always knows how to make her point. She can be quite sarcastic at times.

At some point, I think in potions class, Ron tells Hermione that it makes her sound like a "scarlet woman" which is what his mother calls floozies.

OOps wrong Newspaper :(
But yeah, you'd think Molly would know better then to believe anything that Rita writes. And haha, Molly probably did think Hermione was a "floozie" cause Ron referred to Hermione as a scarlet woman, which he hears his mother calling other people.

Molly is the classic "good mother". In another book she would be jewish or catholic.
She's like a mother hen to all she holds dear. With seven children + Harry + Hermione + OotP members + the Black house and her own she gets a little overwhelmed at times. She is afraid for her family as evidenced by her clock that keeps track of them. She is worried about HP and the prophecy and knows there are bad times ahead for all those she loves. She attacks Sirius out of this fear and wants HP to have as much time as a boy as is available to him. Lily gave her love to HP and sacrificed herself to save him from LV. Molly gives her love every day. She knits sweaters every Christmas. (I believe she knits protection spells into them.) Yes she's overprotective but if she loves you there is no limit to what she will sacrifice for you.

Ummm...since when is good mothering, or overprotectiveness, exclusive to Jews and Catholics? I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of Protestant, atheist, Muslim, and Hindu good mothers who would resent that statement!

I think she just wanted to keep sirius and harry safe. They both seem to find trouble even when sirius was at hogwarts. i just think she wanted what was best for them even if it seemed kind of mean.

I think she was rude but I really like the way she thinks of Harry as her own son. She had some good points though...Sirius is reckless and wild but he has a heart of gold. The poor man has been locked up in Azkaban for a long time...who wouldnt want to get out and have some fun?? I think that Sirius often thinks of Harry as James which is understandable, but not right. He is a different person and Sirius shouldnt encourage Harry to do dangerous and irresponsible things (no matter how fun it may be :D)

It's like coming between a mother bear and one of her cubs. Molly thinks of Harry as her son and when she thinks he is being put in danger, by anyone, she lashes out. True, she didn't deal with Sirius in the most diplomatic manner, but they are all under quite a bit of stress while hiding out at Grimmauld Place, not to mention Sirius isn't exactly the king of tact himself.

Really the Order gives us the image of a very big, very strange family. When it comes down to it they care about each other and would protect each other (and yes I am including Snape in that because we have seen him protect Harry before) no matter what. Sometimes they react badly and say mean things to one another, but most family members do. Molly and Sirius may have exchanged words, but I don't think that would effect their willingness to take care of or protect each other if need be.

Really the Order gives us the image of a very big, very strange family.

I like this description :)

I think she underestimates Sirius. We know he can be responsible but Molly has not. She doubts him and has reason to as well- he had been in Azkaban for...14+years. She treats Harry like he is her own child. She loves him and as mothers are prone to be, are very protective. I doubt if she really thinks of Sirius as Harry's Godfather because he is not in the picture most of the time. Also, maybe she lashed out because the had had disagreements with each other during the time when they were all staying at Number 12. She could have just been releasing steam she had gathered after getting mad at Sirius for some thing or rather before Harry came.

Molly is also quite strict. For example: the way she reacted when she found out that Fred and George had not thrown away the sweets.