The Japan Earthquake and Tsunami [Archive]

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 8:24 am

There seems to have been an explosion close to Daiichi just now, though. Worse, in the meantime not even Greenpeace - who already told so yesterday - but also Japanese offices confirm that it is likely that a nuclear fusion is already happening in Daiichi. (Off-topic-remark: In Japan, who probably worked out the most save atomic power plants of the world; how much must happen until we finally get rid of those?)

From there are several ways, though. It's a catastrophe, without a doubt. The extension is however quite unknown yet. There were four or five nuclear fusions in human's history, Chernobyl being the worst in its spreading over so many parts of the Earth. If the nuclear fusion (which again can't be confirmed yet but likely is happening right now) hits the ground-water and keeps spreading cesium into the atmosphere, things will get worse than Chernobyl nuclear catastrophe ever was. If the fusion stops before it seriously damages the casings, the area will still be restricted for living for more than a lifetime, but it might be a relatively small catastrophe considering what could have happened.

And this all to a country which also has already to deal with a catastrophe after earthquake and tsunami, being in constant danger of further earthquakes and tsunamis. It's not yet a reason to develop end of the world scenarios, but it's no easy situation for everyone on this world.

wandrider

March 12th, 2011, 10:58 am

Video of a huge explosion at nuclear power plant here!!! Wow, this is freaky... You can enlarge this video to full screen.

Click Here to Check Out Video of Huge! Explosion! at Nuclear Power Plant in Japan (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/japan-tsunami-aftermath-explosion-at-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant-91217)

Iwaki, Japan: An explosion at a nuclear power station tore down the walls of a building on Saturday amid fears that its reactor was close to a disastrous meltdown after being hit by a powerful earthquake and tsunami.

This is really bad IF there is going to be a large radiation leak??? I hope not!!!

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 11:28 am

Officials claim that the explosion didn't add to the dangers already happening due to the (likely) nuclear fusion, but the latter alone of course already is the biggest damage which can happen at a nuclear plant.

An nuclear expert which name I didn't understood (maybe it was Sailer) claimed at the radio an half hour ago that Japanese officials must be very worried since they be now raised the restricted zone up to 20 miles. His view on the explosion is that it in fact is supporting the spread of radiation highly (Japanese officials confirmed that there have been leaks already, they just claim this new big leak doesn't make a difference in this). The expert said he's already sure that officials must know that the fusion is happening, but not speculate about it only and calls the catastrophe already as bad as Chernobyl. It might, in his view, get even worse, depending on weather issues and whether it's still possible to work in the contamined area to rescue the other reactors.

It seems people are also asked to take potassium iodide meds now. Both, the meds and the evacuation I actually judge positively. We're (hopefully) over a time where a State can't take according measures because otherwise people instantly believe things are worse than it is told.

However, even if this guy is partly wrong, the situations is shockingly enough. There seems to be not much what humans still can do to prevent an other damages on the two destroyed nuclear plants - for particular is the area is already restricted. The best news by now are that the wind blows towards the coast, but not towards further cities. That's a short-time relief, though.

ETA: The German expert was right. Japanese officials have confirmed that they by now know that there is a nuclear fusion. There seems to be still hope that the explosion in Daiishi didn't hit the reactor itself, though. What's up in Daini (the second no more cooled reactor) seems to be unknown at this point. Anyhoo: the nuclear catastrophe is there, people get evacuated, get meds and a nuclear rescue medicine team has instaled their department 5 miles from Daiishi.

wandrider

March 12th, 2011, 12:12 pm

Let's hope the scenario is more like this, see below, and it is not another Chernobyl. Japan, no doubt, has far superior design & containment compared to what the Russians had. Hopefully, their design will work with such a powerful earthquake. I would agree it must be near the design limits, since the earthquake is a record high that would not be expected except maybe every 500 years or so.

Reuters says that:

"A nuclear industry body official said on Saturday he believed a blast at a Japanese atomic power plant was due to hydrogen igniting, adding it may not necessarily have caused radiation leakage. 'It is obviously an hydrogen explosion ... due to hydrogen igniting,' Ian Hore-Lacy, communications director at the World Nuclear Association, a London-based industry body, told Reuters after reports of the explosion in Japan."

And the AP adds that: " 'meltdown' is not a technical term. Rather, it is an informal way of referring to a very serious collapse of a power plant's systems and its ability to manage temperatures. It is not immediately clear if a meltdown would cause serious radiation risk, and if it did how far the risk would extend. Yaroslov Shtrombakh, a Russian nuclear expert, said a Chernobyl-style meltdown was unlikely. 'It's not a fast reaction like at Chernobyl,' he said. 'I think that everything will be contained within the grounds, and there will be no big catastrophe.'

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 12:23 pm

I hope the same. I think we had four or five nuclear fusions (my dictionary provided this word - is it actually 'meltdown' in English it seems, I mean the latter then) in history, with most different results. Every single one surely was a catastrophe on its own and for the people living around the areas, but none as heavily causing damage like Chernobyl which caused damaged all over Europe.

The explosion indeed seems to have had a spectacular look, but wasn't the worst thing what could have happened. By now I do hope the reactor casings is able to hold the meltdown, so that not more radiation will spread. And that Daini will cool down without causing similar damages. That a lot of the area is already contaminated was confirmed by the officials, but there are still difference between the levels of nuclear power plant accidents. Bah, what a very unfortunate technology that is.

Back to the further damages the earthquake(s) caused it seems rescuing teams slowly make their ways to the regions being hit hardest. Following earthquakes don't seem to be visited as scaring as it first seemed. There seem to be over 1400 victims of the catastrophe confirmed by now, lives of those who were in this train which still is fully missed not yet counted. How people can cope with the mass of possible catastrophes and damages is beyond me.

wandrider

March 12th, 2011, 1:08 pm

I hope the same. I think we had four or five nuclear fusions (my dictionary provided this word - is it actually 'meltdown' in English it seems, I mean the latter then)

Actually, the technical word in English is 'Fission'. (Fusion is what the Sun does with Hydrogen.)

In Japan there is some form of uncontrolled 'fission' reaction that is not being cooled correctly, so the slang word would be "meltdown". Meltdown is an extreme, worst case, scenario, so hopefully it is just a fission reaction that has leaked into the containment areas. It will no doubt heat-up to leak into the containment area, but, hopefully, will not "meltdown" or break through the containment area. The nuclear plant will be shut down for clean-up, or it may close permanently if the contamination is too great in the containment vessels.

Hopefully, the high pressures are being bled-off into the atmosphere to manage the pressure & heat, so hopefully this will be all the fission particulates that will escape. I just hope the design allows for automatic pressure relief, otherwise there could be a "pressure bomb" that might explode & damage the containment area. If that happens, then a lot of fission materials will leak-out into the open & could contaminate large areas beyond the nuclear plant. That would be catastrophic for the Japanese, since land is so precious & limited there.

Hopefully, that is only a nightmare that is just a bad dream.

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 1:36 pm

Fury

March 12th, 2011, 2:19 pm

Saw this on Tumblr:

USA lost many lives on 9-11-01 and now Japan has lost more lives on 3-10-11. add the 2 dates together and you get 12-21-12.

For those that don't know, 12-21-12, is when the Mayans predicted the end of the world.

you could say it was 3-11 for Japan when it happened, though....

Alastor

March 12th, 2011, 2:52 pm

Here is a bit more about meltdown and other related things. Huge blast at Japan nuclear power plant (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12723092)

Seems it's still not known how serious the situation is.

Wab

March 12th, 2011, 2:53 pm

Except as far as the Japanese are concerned (and they have bigger issues) the earthquake was on 10/03/2011. The US is the only country which uses the mm/dd/yyyy notation.

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 2:55 pm

Seems it's still not known how serious the situation is.Yep, atom energy supporters and enemies alike agree that nobody in this world knows to this point how big the damage will be. Japanese officials claim the steal casing of the reactor (which currently has this fission) is still intact though, despite the explosion of the building walls around it. I very much hope this is true.
There are no updates about the other damaged reactors- hopefully that also is good news.

flimseycauldron

March 12th, 2011, 2:55 pm

I imagine that even if the situation can be handled now another aftershock could totally collapse the plant(s).

Siriusandme

March 12th, 2011, 5:16 pm

Yep, atom energy supporters and enemies alike agree that nobody in this world knows to this point how big the damage will be. Japanese officials claim the steal casing of the reactor (which currently has this fission) is still intact though, despite the explosion of the building walls around it. I very much hope this is true.
There are no updates about the other damaged reactors- hopefully that also is good news.

Apparently it was the pumping system that caused the explosion...

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear/index.html?hpt=T1

Lord Godric

March 12th, 2011, 5:25 pm

I'm not sure that I'll take it too seriously when Forbes cites a specialist working for a propaganda institution (Beyond Nuclear (http://www.beyondnuclear.org/) ). He may have an axe to grind.

That some nuclear plants seem to have some troubles is however a fact. Japan declares nuclear emergency (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219)

The same information I heard on multiple news programs, but that was the only link that stressed the importance of returning electricity to the area, not just getting coolant there.

Officials claim that the explosion didn't add to the dangers already happening due to the (likely) nuclear fusion, but the latter alone of course already is the biggest damage which can happen at a nuclear plant.

An nuclear expert which name I didn't understood (maybe it was Sailer) claimed at the radio an half hour ago that Japanese officials must be very worried since they be now raised the restricted zone up to 20 miles. His view on the explosion is that it in fact is supporting the spread of radiation highly (Japanese officials confirmed that there have been leaks already, they just claim this new big leak doesn't make a difference in this). The expert said he's already sure that officials must know that the fusion is happening, but not speculate about it only and calls the catastrophe already as bad as Chernobyl. It might, in his view, get even worse, depending on weather issues and whether it's still possible to work in the contamined area to rescue the other reactors.

It seems people are also asked to take potassium iodide meds now. Both, the meds and the evacuation I actually judge positively. We're (hopefully) over a time where a State can't take according measures because otherwise people instantly believe things are worse than it is told.

However, even if this guy is partly wrong, the situations is shockingly enough. There seems to be not much what humans still can do to prevent an other damages on the two destroyed nuclear plants - for particular is the area is already restricted. The best news by now are that the wind blows towards the coast, but not towards further cities. That's a short-time relief, though.

ETA: The German expert was right. Japanese officials have confirmed that they by now know that there is a nuclear fusion. There seems to be still hope that the explosion in Daiishi didn't hit the reactor itself, though. What's up in Daini (the second no more cooled reactor) seems to be unknown at this point. Anyhoo: the nuclear catastrophe is there, people get evacuated, get meds and a nuclear rescue medicine team has instaled their department 5 miles from Daiishi.
That's terribly frightening news. And it seems like it's only going to get worse.

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 6:22 pm

By now news crawl a wee bit back: seems I'm not the only one with translation issues from German to English, also from Japanese to English it doesn't seem to be fully clear what a fission consists of. Either that's a tactics by the officials to avoid a panic. That imo isn't necessary: people seem to stay as calm as possible and evacuation measures run anyway. Or it really is still that unclear since nobody can check that closely. However, official statements say the nuclear accounts didn't raise after the explosion what seems to confirm that it indeed didn't damage the steal casing of the actual reactor. Still, three people seem to be under medical observation yet because they were diagnosed as contaminated with radiation.

Alastor

March 12th, 2011, 6:24 pm

According to the latest news, the cooling process is under control and the situation stabilized.

I'm afraid that, as usually, it will take days before we know everything about it.

gertiekeddle

March 12th, 2011, 6:36 pm

I didn't yet hear that (just that they wanted to try something with sea water) - that what be better news than expected a few hours ago, however horrible the already existing damage is.

Agreeing that there will be many things unclear for some time still. My best hope is that the officials were honest and got the humans out of the area in time.

Alastor

March 12th, 2011, 6:47 pm

I recall my TV news saying something about bringing in seawater with trucks. Maybe it helped.

wandrider

March 12th, 2011, 6:58 pm

Here is an excellent "quick explanation" about what "a meltdown" means & the temperatures involved to melt things.

The key to limiting damage will be to cool the rods or core with enough water to prevent melting of various materials. Melting metal casings is bad, but melting the ceramic fissionable pellets in the casing is disastrous.

Key to everything is getting the cooling water in circulation, so the temperatures can not get too hot & start melting the core materials.

(Reuters) - The Japanese nuclear safety agency rated the damage at a nuclear power plant at Fukushima at a four on a scale of one to seven, which is not quite as bad as the Three Mile Island accident in the United States in 1979, which registered a five. But what does that mean?

The International Atomic Energy Agency -- an inter-governmental organization for scientific co-operation in the nuclear field -- said it uses the scale to communicate to the public in a consistent way the safety significance of nuclear and radiological events.

The International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (INES) ranges from one to seven with the most serious being a seven referred to as a "major accident", while a one is an "anomaly". The scale is designed so the severity of an event is about ten times greater for each increase in level.

The Chernobyl explosion in the Ukraine in 1986, the worst nuclear power accident ever, was rated a seven. That was the only event classified as a major accident in nuclear power history, exploded due to an uncontrolled power surge that damaged the reactor core, releasing a radioactive cloud that blanketed Europe.

The Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania was a partial core meltdown in which the metal cladding surrounding the fuel rods started to melt. That metal surrounds the ceramic uranium fuel pellets, which hold most of the radiation and power the reactor.

Nuclear reactors operate at between 550 and 600 degrees F (between 288 and 316 degrees C). The metal on the fuel rods will not melt until temperatures are well above 1000 degrees F. The ceramic uranium pellets themselves won't melt until about 2000 degrees.

About half the reactor core at Three Mile Island melted before operators restored enough cooling water to stop the meltdown. The core holds the uranium fuel rods, which must be cooled by water to prevent overheating.

So what happened at Fukushima? (Article continues...)
=================================
My response:

No one knows exactly. It takes time to get the cooling working properly & time to access & assess the damage. For now, a "4" rating is good compared to "7". Hopefully, it is already unable to go higher in number, which is dependent on the design prevention "fail-safe" & earthquake damage.

I know there is at least one nuclear power plant in California that is not far from fault-lines, so that specific plant has been controversial since the 1970's.

Did you see the explosion on the video? If not, then find the link I posted and watch that! Wow, that was taken from very far away, so the size of that explosion was truly massive. That looked to be a giant building or area that was "blown to kingdom come" in an instant. Just huge.

Has anyone seen any helicopter overhead video above that explosion area to assess the damage??? There should be some video soon, by Sunday, otherwise I think there must be "a news blackout" to cover-up what damage the explosion caused.

Hey, use Google satellite images to see any damage. ;) If anyone knows how to get the coordinates or can zoom down to the nuclear plant, then there should be some recent satellite images. I'm sure someone is paying for a satellite to image that area now. We need Google satellite to do that now too... :D

Moriath

March 12th, 2011, 9:41 pm

wandrider

March 12th, 2011, 11:45 pm

Here is a really informative article about the nuclear plants by a person who works in the field. (http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/2011/03/nuclear-plant-issues-in-japan-are-least.html) Basically they say that they do indeed have everything under control, even if things explode, melt and overheat. It's not the only valid opinion on this, of course, but it is a very valid counter-piece to the current fearmongering articles and reports in the media.

Thanks for that article. Here is an excerpt:

The plant's containment dome will be contaminated as a result of being the reception location for the steam that boils away while the operators are trying to restore cooling flow. That water will have contacted the core and will contain some of the core material as the cladding gets overheated and damaged.

Radiation levels inside the containment will be many times higher than usual, but that is okay because no one needs routine access inside containment buildings and no humans will be over exposed. The containment walls, reactor coolant piping, and other equipment inside the containment building will condense and capture much of the radioactive materials that are entrained in the water. Other than those vented noble gases mentioned above, essentially nothing will be released to the environment.
===============================

What I saw on the news today has me very concerned, because "the top" of an entire containment building was exploded away! Poof!!! The new photograph shows the giant building's whole top part gone!!!

That was a truly massive explosion to cause that. This means there was EXTREME pressure build-up taking place, until the entire building top blew off, so it must be gotten under control ASAP. Maybe 'that' explosion was caused by explosive gases too?

But, an MIT nuclear expert said, if the new report is true, that they are using Sea Water to cool the core, then this means that nuclear plant is sacrificed forever. The MIT expert said there will be no recovery for any core that used emergency Sea Water to cool it. This is because the Sea Water used with Boric Acid added will destroy its ability to be repaired for future power generation according to the MIT nuclear expert.

So, apparently, at least one nuclear facility is destroyed forever. It will never come online again.

Just wait till you see that picture of the giant containment building's entire top blown away -totally gone!!! It really is scary that could happen, and, imo, there should be some 'gravity fed' or stored static water pressure ways of cooling that don't require electric pumps to cool the fission rods. I think that is a fail-safe that should be incorporated into the design... provide 'gravity fed' or stored static water pressure cooling in case of emergencies.

:sigh:

Pox Voldius

March 13th, 2011, 12:29 am

Looks like that quake moved the entire island of Honshu (the main island of Japan) eastward by about 8 feet, and shifted the Earth on its axis by about 4 inches.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/?hpt=T2
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-japan-coast-moves-8-feet-shifts-earth-axis,0,562572.story
http://www.livescience.com/13175-japan-8-9-earthquake-tsunami.html
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110313a4.html
http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_17597627

Fury

March 13th, 2011, 1:02 am

Wab

March 13th, 2011, 1:16 am

All major quakes shift land masses and give the Earth a wobble.

Fury

March 13th, 2011, 1:29 am

But I thought when the earth's axis moved a little, it slightly changed our weather patterns and length of day or something like that.

dobbydear15

March 13th, 2011, 3:05 am

They do tend to change our weather patterns and time of day. One of the past (but recent) earthquakes in Haiti shifted our axis and we lost a mili-second.

ccollinsmith

March 13th, 2011, 4:17 am

I never venture into the "real world" sections of this site, but I just saw this horrifying breaking header on CNN online:

"We are assuming that a meltdown has occurred" at a nuclear power reactor, Japan's chief Cabinet secretary says.

I am speechless.

dobbydear15

March 13th, 2011, 4:34 am

Oh my! How Horrible!!!! I am at a complete loss for words.......:/

Two More Reactors On Verge Of Meltdown!!!! >_<

Moriath

March 13th, 2011, 7:43 am

This is undoubtedly a very dramatic situation. But panic won't help anyone and people thousands of miles away are freaking out more than the people living nearby. Even with two more meltdowns this will hopefully remain a catastrophe of local impact only. That's bad enough. Personally, I won't indulge in the scarier scenarios that are currently spread by the media.

Alastor

March 13th, 2011, 8:05 am

Moriath

March 13th, 2011, 8:16 am

BTW where is the third meltdown? Neither BBC or my local news seem to report about any other than the two at Fukushima.

Not yet. But the cooling function of a third reactor failed.

Tepco confirmed that the No. 3 reactor of the quake-hit Fukushima plant had lost its cooling functions. Yesterday a small amount of radiation leaked after similar problems hit the facility's No. 1 reactor.

This reactor might pose a bigger threat to the environment than Nr. 1 and 2 because it contains plutonium MOX. But that's me reading the news, I have no idea what plutonium MOX is.

Hes

March 13th, 2011, 10:06 am

Miyagi Police Dept Chief said the death in the prefecture will exceed 10,000; 379 bodies are recovered as of noon

The BBC's Nick Ravenscroft in Sendai says fires are still burning in the waterfront neighbourhoods, mud and silt everywhere. But he says people are beginning to start a clean-up operation, distributing water and looking after the elderly. They're also putting up signs up to try to find out about people who are missing.

I've a lot of admiration for the attitude of the Japanese people.

The pic of the little boy being checked for radiation is just striking.

gertiekeddle

March 13th, 2011, 11:27 am

Anyway the latest news indicate that the situation at Fukushima is stabilizing. Reactor #1 is covered by several meters of sea water and the are able to feed cooling water to reactor #3. Latest radiation measurement is said to be only 50 µSv/hour and the wind is supposed to blow it out to sea for a couple more days. Doesn't look like reason for panic.
Radiation is raising again, likely due to the measures on reactor #3, where currently damp is left out of the casing to avoid an explosion.

Most experts believe that was the reason for the higher radiation measures around #1 yesterday as well. Cooling, however, failed as Japanese officials confirmed. Since seawater might react with the fission going on that's not at all good news.

I'm agreeing that it's no help to panic, not from our relatively save locations anyway, but it is a very serious situation. Should #1 blow up, because it can't be cooled or because the seawater reacts with the fission, radiation of the reactor will get into atmosphere uncontrolled. It's guessed that there's twenty as much radiation existing as in Chernobyl. So my main worry is still at reactor #1 right now. The area is already contaminated, should at least reactor #2, 3, 4 5 and 6 as those who have no cooling anymore not blow up too, the more of radiation due to damp is unfortunate and horrible but quite the lesser catastrophe.

However, as well in reactor #2 and #3 fissions seem to happen right now. There's nothing Japanese officials hide, it's just that nobody can say for sure right now. I wouldn't want to change with the workers who currently try to fix things in a contaminated environment, but I'm certainly glad that they try. I'm aware that the nuclear company Tepco often worked amazingly bad and was shown to neglect safety measures often enough - but the Japanese nuclear plants still are the safest of the world. Despite what my chancellor Merkel claims, most German nuclear power plants hadn't hold that much of damage even half as long.

ETA: While I'm writing Tepco is reporting that it's possible that reactor #3 will explode today, too.
ETA 2: The same time Japanese officials confirming a possible explosion. Greenpeace, however, is saying that it's likely that there is no fission going on in #3 right now.

Hes

March 13th, 2011, 11:59 am

ABC news has before and after satellite pictures on their site: here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm)

Includes one of the nuclear plant.

Fury

March 13th, 2011, 3:25 pm

Amazing pictures there, Hes.

More bad news for Japan:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/article965229.ece/Japanese-volcano-erupts

Voldemorts8thHorcrux

March 13th, 2011, 5:47 pm

Thank you - a fission it is then! Then I guess meltdown equals 'Supergau' in German - what Chernobyl was due to it crossing the border to no more controllable, while other accidents in history count as 'Gau' when they still could controlled in some way.

You kind of scared me there, I was wondering what had happened to make such large atoms fuse :eeep:

With such an enormous catastrophe, the fifth largest earthquake on record, it really is admirable how well they're handling the entire thing.

wandrider

March 13th, 2011, 7:16 pm

The excerpt from an article below shows the explosion was caused by the plant operators trying to cool the containment vessel. This only proves just how desperate the situation is, when they knowingly risked an explosion to control the cooling. (Be sure to check-out youtube link at end of this post!)

This article also shows "the worst case" scenario of a total meltdown. And, it mentions that 5 reactors (now, at 6 on Sunday) are not cooling properly. This will go down as the most expensive nuclear accident in history, because so many nuclear reactors are going to be sacrificed to prevent total meltdowns. Just look for the use of Sea Water & boron (boric acid) & that will be a sacrificed reactor. (How are they going to shut down the chain reaction that is going on in Japan? One idea is to get a lot of boric acid into the bath. The element boron absorbs neutrons much better than U-235 does, so mixing boric acid into the vat will absorb the neutrons that make the sustain the chain reaction and shut it off.)

Article Excerpts:

Officials placed five reactors, including Units 1 and 3 at Dai-ichi, under states of emergency Friday after operators lost the ability to cool the reactors using usual procedures.

An additional reactor was added to the list early Sunday, for a total of six _ three at the Dai-ichi complex and three at another nearby complex. Local evacuations have been ordered at each location. Japan has a total of 55 reactors spread across 17 complexes nationwide.

Officials began venting radioactive steam at Fukushima Dai-ichi's Unit 1 to relieve pressure inside the reactor vessel, which houses the overheated uranium fuel.

Concerns escalated dramatically Saturday when that unit's containment building exploded.

Officials were aware that the steam contained hydrogen and were risking an explosion by venting it, acknowledged Shinji Kinjo, spokesman for the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, but chose to do so because they needed to keep circulating cool water on the fuel rods to prevent a meltdown.

Officials insisted there was no significant radioactive leak after the explosion.

If a full-scale meltdown were to occur, experts interviewed by The Associated Press said melted fuel would eat through the bottom of the reactor vessel, then through the floor of the containment building. At that point, the uranium and dangerous byproducts would start escaping into the environment.

Eventually, the walls of the reactor vessel _ six inches (15 centimeters) of stainless steel _ would melt into a lava-like pile, slump into any remaining water on the floor, and potentially cause an explosion that would enhance the spread of radioactive contaminants.

If the reactor core became exposed to the outside, officials would likely began pouring cement and sand over the entire facility, as was done at the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident in the Ukraine, Peter Bradford, a former commissioner of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, told reporters.

Another expert, physicist Ken Bergeron, told reporters that as a result of such a meltdown the surrounding land would be off-limits for a long time and "a lot of first responders would die."

Complete Article Click Here (http://news.ino.com/headlines/?newsid=6897685677472710)

Details I posted are at end of article.

CLICK HERE For Youtube News Report (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtYq70-71RI)

Beatifically

March 14th, 2011, 3:58 am

Explosion rocks another Japanese nuclear reactor building (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/)

vMCa-Zo_ZEU

dobbydear15

March 14th, 2011, 5:00 am

From what I heard, they are still experiencing after-shocks and are afraid of what other ( even minimal) explosions could take place.

Let's just hope everyone remains as safe as possible, and that everything works out as best as it can in regards to relief efforts. Thoughts and Prayers!

wandrider

March 14th, 2011, 5:41 am

That 2nd explosion posted above (see post 51 youtube video) is truly HUGE. Just as big as the first explosion, see post 15 or 50, which you can see in earlier posts I made in this thread. This is really serious, because these two explosions prove that the overheating is not controlled yet.

That's 2 nuclear power plants gone forever & will have to be closed permanently! This is very sad & potentially very dangerous until the cooling is under control & working.

Plus, I've now seen news reports that 'spent nuclear fuel' has been stored 'on top' of the nuclear reactor area. That's just plain freaky!

Is this true? It seems to be a really unsafe method of storage location???

I know some nuclear waste is cast in glass, but if this melts or explodes that could be a problem too. I just hope that the nuclear spent fuel was not stored in the reactor areas that exploded too, because that could be very serious radioactive material dispersed by the explosions. It's like a dirty nuclear bomb!!!

We need accurate answers about where the spent nuclear fuel has been stored, and if it is stored far away from the explosion areas??? Please research this & find answers if possible. Thanks!

This is going to be the ultimate test about nuclear reactor safety, because it is pushing all the safety redundancies past their design limits. We're into the FINAL fail-safe modes & these two (possibly up to 6) nuclear power plants are now destroyed permanently.

Wab

March 14th, 2011, 6:05 am

A very cool illustration of before and after.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html

wandrider

March 14th, 2011, 6:26 am

A very cool illustration of before and after.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html

WOW, WOW, WOW... TOTAL DEVASTATION.

That picture of the forest totally wiped-out with every tree flattened and stripped like match sticks shows the killing power of that tsunami. No one would survive in most of those pictures.

This is very depressing what has happened to whole coastal regions on that side of Japan. Some communities must have been wiped off the face of the Earth, as if never there before.

I hope the USA will help our dear friends, yes the Japanese people, as much as is possible. Our nation & the world community should help now!

You can send money to the Red Cross for the Japanese people. :angel: The Red Cross can determine where the money is best spent more than we can know, and that is a safe donation that won't be lost or wasted, imo.

gertiekeddle

March 14th, 2011, 9:50 am

I saw these satellite pictures in tv yesterday, but it's quite different to get more than a short glimpse on them. From first reports I thought it's more like Ishinomaki looks (what's horrible enough), but this full destruction is shocking. People didn't have the slightest chance.

Japanese officials claim not much radiation went out when #2 exploded. While 'not much' clearly is a relative measure and I'm still inclined to say officials do a rather transparent job, I'm by now more worried than during the weekend that we don't get as much information as we could. Or different said: Japanese people don't seem to get them. European TV interviewed the first returners last evening who all looked somewhat surprised how open the information is spread here and how open risks are discussed.

I really hope it was a honest call to stop the evacuation at 20 miles. More likely it's the only possible solution since the actual catastrophe destroyed too many streets and buildings.

SSJ_Jup81

March 14th, 2011, 12:00 pm

Since I've been here, this has been the most devestating thing I've lived through, in the sense that I'm seeing the aftermath of it. I'm in Yamagata, which isn't too far from where everything happened. We felt the earthquake, and lost power and water. So, for the most part, since I'm "inland", the Tsunami didn't affect me, only the quake did and I'm not far from Fukushima (where the reactors blew), but not close enough to have it affect even though, ironically, I was supposed to have gone there as opposed to Yamagata, but the BOE changed its mind, and I ended up in Yamagata instead. I'm upset over those who have lost their lives and how you can't turn on the news and stuff here without seeing families who have lost their homes. It's as sad as seeing Katrina victims, imo.

I don't know how they're going to do it, but I hope that they manage to recover somehow.

From what I heard, they are still experiencing after-shocks and are afraid of what other ( even minimal) explosions could take place. Yes, we are experiencing aftershocks. I'm getting them as I type this up. We had a strong aftershock earlier today...but not big enough to worry about here, but for Fukushima-ken...yeah, it is worrisome because of the nuclear plant.

Yoana

March 14th, 2011, 12:08 pm

I'm very glad you're ok, SSJ_Jup!

I have friends in Japan, one of them is currently tweeting almost 24/7 about everything she sees there, translates Japanese sources for us, answers questions, etc. Information technologies are a blessing in a situation like this one.

gertiekeddle

March 14th, 2011, 12:24 pm

Glad you're doing well, SSJ! The only 'direct' information I yet got was over friends of friends - the latter stayed in Japan for some time. I've heard the aftershocks, while they certainly disturb the rescue teams, aren't the worst experience for the people. Hard to imagine for a spoiled European kid like me.

I heard #2 lost as much cooling water as to become critical towards another fission now too. This reads so much like a bad dream, seeing how any measure doesn't work and things keep falling off. On the other hand, workers must do an amazing job to keep things in check as much as they do now. This could have been worse already, but there often seems to be time to help people and get the next measure in.

flimseycauldron

March 14th, 2011, 12:55 pm

Questions about a meltdown are totally justified. But the current radiation leaks look, to me, to be more hazardous than they were originally reported to be. The fact that US carriers are reading radiation levels 100 miles off shore what does that say about the intensity of the radiation on the mainland?

gertiekeddle

March 14th, 2011, 2:04 pm

Yep, I agree. There are reports that 'shortly' radiation was about 400 times as much as usually, now all is fine again? How so? Either the readings aren't well done or the actual results are indeed lied about. Hundred miles isn't that much when it comes to radiation, so I'm not sure if all people know right now how dangerous the situation already is. It is, however, still the lesser catastrophe than seeing one of the reactors explode (but not just their buildings).

flimseycauldron

March 14th, 2011, 2:24 pm

I agree that the reactors going would be the ultimate catastrophe. :agree: I was just pointing out the leaks because it looks to me like Japan is trying to avoid a panic (can you blame them). I mean if they are willing to downplay the leaks it's not a far stretch to believe they would down play a potential meltdown. I am not telling my son about the leaks or suspected meltdowns. We live close to a nuclear power plant and I think he would be frightened. As it is I have to keep reminding him that we live on the Atlantic Coast, not the Pacific, so we don't have to worry about tsunamis reaching us here from Japan.

Siriusandme

March 14th, 2011, 3:44 pm

I just got this of the CNN website. I don't really know what to make of it since I simply don't know enough about this subject.

Low levels of radiation were detected at least as far as 100 miles northeast of the plant, according to the U.S. Navy, which repositioned ships and planes after detecting low-level "airborne radioactivity."
The Navy's statement, however, provided some perspective, noting that the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship personnel when it passed through the area was "less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun."
The Tokyo Electric Power Company said in a statement late Sunday that radiation levels outside that plant remained high.
Kyodo, citing the same company, said that there were measurements of 751 microsieverts and 650 microsieverts of radiation early Monday. Both are above the legal limit, albeit less than one reading recorded Sunday.
A microsievert is an internationally recognized unit measuring radiation dosage, with people typically exposed during an entire year to a total of about 1,000 microsieverts.

flimseycauldron

March 14th, 2011, 4:56 pm

The Navy's statement, however, provided some perspective, noting that the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship personnel when it passed through the area was "less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun."

To me that seems like a alot given that they've only been exposed for a few days. If it wasn't harmful (as the quote seems to indicate) why bother moving further away? IDK, maybe I'm just paranoid.

Alastor

March 14th, 2011, 5:15 pm

The fact that US carriers are reading radiation levels 100 miles off shore what does that say about the intensity of the radiation on the mainland?Not much. Way out to sea is exactly where the radiation from the first explosion and from any steam let out deliberately to relieve pressure in the reactor container made this far is supposed to be. Because those radioactive clouds are blown out to sea by the wind. Last time I checked the wind was supposed to turn around this evening. Which is a bad thing as they seem to still not have the cooling process under control and may have to let out some steam repeatedly.

Wab

March 14th, 2011, 6:11 pm

Either that or the shielding on the Reagan is not up to scratch.

Siriusandme

March 14th, 2011, 6:18 pm

Either that or the shielding on the Reagan is not up to scratch.

Shielding??? That brings up images of a big boat surrounded by some kind of USS enterprise forcefield.. I had just a little to much fun at work today. :D

wandrider

March 14th, 2011, 7:21 pm

(Reuters) - Nuclear fuel rods at a quake-stricken Japanese nuclear reactor are now fully exposed, Jiji news agency said, quoting the plant's operator, Tokyo Eletcric Power Co.

The report referred to the Fukushima Daiichi complex's No.2 reactor, where levels of water coolant around the reactor core had been reported as falling earlier in the day.
==================

This means units 1, 2, and 3 are now in jeopardy of partial to total meltdowns that will challenge the design limits of the containment vessels. It is already admitted there is some partial meltdown of the fuel rods, and this will continue to get worse if these rods are not cooled.

Now, three reactors are total failures & will be shut-down permanently.

Without continuous cooling the rod casings will melt freeing the fuel pellets to fall & lump together & build-up higher temperatures against the containment vessel itself. This is when a catastrophic failure could occur with the burn-through of the vessel itself allowing the nuclear fuel to be exposed. They would have to bury the plant in a huge casing of cement, sand, and concrete at that point.

I think reactors 1, 2, 3 are in danger of containment failure of the vessel itself, since the cooling is not under control. It is only getting worse every day, so far...

Freaky! Scary! :scared: :eeep:

Sarahx

March 14th, 2011, 10:10 pm

My hearts go out to everyone in Japan suffering from the earthquake. I watched a video earlier on the news where you could see a figure getting swept into the waves. They didn't seem to try, so I imagine they were elderly but it's very heart breaking to see.

wandrider

March 14th, 2011, 10:32 pm

Plus, I've now seen news reports that 'spent nuclear fuel' has been stored 'on top' of the nuclear reactor area. That's just plain freaky!

Is this true? It seems to be a really unsafe method of storage location???

We need accurate answers about where the spent nuclear fuel has been stored, and if it is stored far away from the explosion areas??? Please research this & find answers if possible. Thanks!

This is going to be the ultimate test about nuclear reactor safety, because it is pushing all the safety redundancies past their design limits. We're into the FINAL fail-safe modes & these two (possibly up to 6) nuclear power plants are now destroyed permanently.

Update about spent fuel... Again, its been repeated several times that more than 200 tons of spent nuclear fuel is somehow 'on top' of the nuclear reactor area. This was stated by a nuclear expert too; not a reporter!

Plus, it is being said that these reactors could never have been licensed in the USA since 1971, because the technology used is not up to standards & is too inferior.

Also, there is a lot of hinting going on in the news casts that a meltdown is possible. All I can say is this type of 'information hints' is sometimes given to news organizations to prepare for what will likely happen. This may be 'a between the lines' admission that a meltdown is coming.

Here is an amazing video of some Tokyo skyscrapers that swayed during the earthquake. Note all three buildings are rocking at some point. Look at the sky-reflections on the building's glass to see the motion.

See Skyscrapers Rocking & Select HD & Full Screen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UVLMli-duMw#at=134)

It just shows that giant tall buildings can be engineered to withstand massive earthquakes with zero exterior damage.

Pox Voldius

March 14th, 2011, 10:59 pm

It just shows that giant tall buildings can be engineered to withstand massive earthquakes with zero exterior damage.
Zero exterior damage maybe, but I wouldn't want to be on any of the upper floors during a big quake.

I used to work in one of the skyscrapers in Downtown Los Angeles, a few years ago, on...I want to say that it was something like the 21st or 24th floor... and even just a small magnitude 3- or 4-point-something quake, that people on the ground barely took notice of, was enough to give us quite a ride once. (It also got the building locked down for a few hours while they checked for structural damage.)

wandrider

March 14th, 2011, 11:25 pm

I used to work in one of the skyscrapers in Downtown Los Angeles, a few years ago, on...I want to say that it was something like the 21st or 24th floor... and even just a small magnitude 3- or 4-point-something quake, that people on the ground barely took notice of, was enough to give us quite a ride once. (It also got the building locked down for a few hours while they checked for structural damage.)

Yeah, being near the top would definitely make a large arc-of-sway covering quite a distance compared to none at the ground floor.

Were you brave enough to look out the window & see the movement & sway that was happening? Was it like being in a boat riding giant waves swaying back & forth? Were the vibrations rough or smooth & rolling or swaying?

Do you still live in an earthquake area? I felt the Earth rumble at the bottom of the Grand Canyon from a small earthquake. Since I was camping on the ground, it awakened me directly feeling 'the rumble' on my back. I found out later it was a small earthquake.

But an 8.9 or 9.0 that Japan had is just terrifying... that's being called a one in a 1,000 year quake now. It's being said it moved the Earth's axis by about 25 centimeters -about 10 inches.

Pox Voldius

March 15th, 2011, 12:02 am

Yeah, being near the top would definitely make a large arc-of-sway covering quite a distance compared to none at the ground floor.

Were you brave enough to look out the window & see the movement & sway that was happening? Was it like being in a boat riding giant waves swaying back & forth? Were the vibrations rough or smooth & rolling or swaying?

Do you still live in an earthquake area? I felt the Earth rumble at the bottom of the Grand Canyon from a small earthquake. Since I was camping on the ground, it awakened me directly feeling 'the rumble' on my back. I found out later it was a small earthquake.

I wasn't near a window at the time. Our boss also enforced the whole "get under your desk and stay there until they sound the 'all clear'" thing. IIRC, it was mainly a side-to-side swaying & rolling that we got up there. (The scarier thing was that they wouldn't let us leave the floor we were on until they'd finished checking the building for structural damage.)

I don't currently live in a quake-prone area anymore. (Well... unless the New Madrid fault system decides to do something big again. We might feel that here.)

But an 8.9 or 9.0 that Japan had is just terrifying... that's being called a one in a 1,000 year quake now.

Agreed. :scared:

edit

They're now saying that parts of Japan, in the area closest to the epicenter of the quake, moved eastward by as much as 13 feet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/14seismic.html

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 2:21 am

There is a 3rd Explosion & it's reported as biggest explosion of the three. :upset:

Very bad indeed...

A huge explosion hit another reactor at an earthquake-damaged Japanese nuclear power plant early Tuesday, the third blast since Saturday, the plant operator said.

"There was a huge explosion" between 6:00 am (2100 GMT Monday) and 6:15 am at the number-two reactor of Fukushima No.1 nuclear power plant, a Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) spokesman said.

The government also reported apparent damage to part of the container shielding the same reactor at Fukushima 250 kilometres (155 miles) northeast of Tokyo, although it was unclear whether this resulted from the blast.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters the suppression pool of the number-two nuclear reactor appeared to have been damaged.

This is the bottom part of the container, which holds water used to cool it down and control air pressure inside.

Sea water is being pumped into reactor 2 at the Fukushima Daiichi plant after its fuel rods were fully exposed twice.

International nuclear watchdogs said there was no sign of a meltdown but one minister said a melting of rods was "highly likely" to be happening.

Fury

March 15th, 2011, 3:41 am

From twitter:

@cnnbrk: Official: Radiation levels at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant are at "levels that can impact human health" #quake http://on.cnn.com/fpRk6P

@REUTERSFLASH: France: low-level radioactive wind may reach Tokyo in 10 hours

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 4:35 am

As "Fury" posted above...

A FIRE is burning at the No.4 nuclear reactor at Japan's stricken Fukushima No. 1 power plant, Prime Minister Naoto Kan confirmed today, warning that dangerously high levels of radiation are leaking from the area.
================

This is Japan's incredibly tragic 2nd nuclear Armageddon. In previous posts I suggested many were concerned about the nuclear waste storage catching on fire. Well, it seems this may be the case at reactor 4.

IF true, this means there will be dangerous levels of nuclear radiation spreading wherever the wind blows & the snow/rain falls.

This is FOUR nuclear disasters at one location!

I'm willing to bet this will be the last time any country will cluster their nuclear power plants in one area. Anyone know how many reactors are at this one site? I know there are at least 6, but maybe there are more than that???

Four reactors will be toast at this one location! SHOCKING. :eeep:

Alastor

March 15th, 2011, 6:03 am

Anyone know how many reactors are at this one site? I know there are at least 6, but maybe there are more than that???I think all reasonably reliable sources I've seen this far agree that there are 6 reactors at Fukushima 1 in Daichi. At Fukushima 2 in Daini not far from #1 there are 4 reactors. No major problems have been reported from Daini this far.

My local news reported at 04.46 GMT that the fire in #4 at Daichi has been put out already. The radiation levels at the plant are now said to be dangerous. These news claim AFP, AP and Reuters as their sources.

Reactors 4 - 6 at Daichi were down for maintenance at the time of the earthquake.

gertiekeddle

March 15th, 2011, 7:09 am

There are eleven reactors in this area, but only six seem to have problems. #4 is a reactor which was indeed down for maintenance, but that doesn't matter as long as it isn't fully put down: also these reactors on break need to be cooled. Officials claimed the fire in #4 was responsible for the higher amount of radiation, but I don't believe that is true.

It is not yet confirmed - partly because Tepco took its workers out of #2, who were apparently fighting a lost battle over the last days - but all hints seem to show that the casing of #2 is indeed hurt from this explosion a few hours ago and releases radiation into the atmosphere directly. I heart about it shortly before I went to bed yesterday. A few hours later, officials finally began to warn the population that there is much more radiation out and that it is dangerous for the population within a 30 miles from Fukushima. I don't think they go far enough with these 30 miles, but in light of destroyed streets and buildings I don't think the State has a possibility to evacuate the people as it were needed either. It's a horrible situation for those who do live in Northern Japan.

Also since the wind changed Tokyo already read a higher radiation than usual. The reason might be the possible leak in #2, it's also possible that the radiation of the last days already was enough to change the situation even in Tokyo a few hundred miles away. It's not yet critical, but from all we know, there's no way to stop the radiation since the situation is no more controllable. This is no surprise, however my hopes had been up that these Tepco workers risking their lives while trying to cool the reactors somehow had have success.

From the first news about a much higher radiation yesterday to this morning GMT, most Western correspondence already left Tokyo to places around 500 miles far South. Many international rescue organisations reported they are going to stop their efforts in Northern Japan today and get their people out of the area. That's surely a safety measure and no prove that the full area already is contaminated. The same time it's showing how different people react who actually already were 260 miles away in comparison to those who live within the 30 miles restricted zone. Not only the state of information, but also the possibilities are just way different.

SSJ_Jup81

March 15th, 2011, 2:35 pm

Just thought I'd mention that to help preserve the energy (because of the nuclear plant situation), they're going to be doing mandatory rolling blackouts in some places (my city being one of them [March 16 - 18, 5:00 pm - 8:00 pm])...and here comes another aftershock. Wish they'd stop, but I heard that with an earthquake of this magnitude, we may have them for weeks.

I'm not sure what's going on now as far as the nuclear stuff, but I'll probably learn more about it by tomorrow and if there'll be evacuations and all that. Still scary that I'm about 50 miles from Fukushima and how I ended up living here in Yamagata as opposed to there, like I was originally supposed to.

Hes

March 15th, 2011, 2:40 pm

I don't know if other foreign news agencies are doing this but the Dutch national broadcaster has decided to withdraw it's journalists out of Japan, to avoid the radiation risk.

SSJ_Jup81

March 15th, 2011, 2:45 pm

I don't know if other foreign news agencies are doing this but the Dutch national broadcaster has decided to withdraw it's journalists out of Japan, to avoid the radiation risk.I heard about that as well, but I'm not sure what other places have done so. I just heard that most international journalists are leaving in fear of the radiation scare.

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 4:21 pm

Still scary that I'm about 50 miles from Fukushima and how I ended up living here in Yamagata as opposed to there, like I was originally supposed to.

Wow! Do you have good roads to leave the area if necessary? Would you be stuck on the road from evacuation traffic?

I hope your home is sealed from outside air intakes for cooling/heating & doors & windows are sealed??? You want to make sure you are NOT downwind of the failing plants. I would wear a breathing mask outside & shower well every day. Plus, wash clothes every day.

That fire would have released a lot of radiation already & when they -already admit- the rods may have melted, this means they have -already detected- the substances in the rods that escaped from the melting!!! This means the situation is much worse, because they have to cool these DAMAGED reactors & waste pools FOR MONTHS before it is truly under control. And, there is =already melting= of the rods detected.

This cooling battle will not be won for months, though I would hope it will be "under control" within days or weeks. Given that the situation has been getting worse for the last week there is no sign it is getting under control now.

Plus, those plant workers have to be getting exhausted & reaching their radiation exposure limits, so there may be real problems continuing to work on this emergency basis.

Good luck with your situation, but please be very defensive to protect yourself & family. Do you have children or teens there? If so, I would get them on the potassium iodine now.

Latest news headlines...

* Radiation leaking directly into the air from stricken Fukushima nuclear plant
* Power station has now suffered three reactor explosions and one fire
* Radiation levels up to ten times higher than normal in Tokyo
* Experts warn of cancer risk
* Stock markets in chaos as Nikkei plummets 10.5% in one day

Terrified residents began to flee Tokyo today as a nuclear power plant destroyed by the tsunami threatened to send a cloud of radioactive dust across Japan.

The Fukushima Dai-ichi plant suffered a third reactor explosion overnight and another reactor on the site caught fire.

Radiation levels are soaring across the country this afternoon as radioactive material is spewed directly into the atmosphere - while emergency crews fight to avoid a catastrophic meltdown.

Levels of radiation were ten times normal in the capital today and continue to climb, as experts warned that Japanese could face an increased cancer risk even if the crisis does not deteriorate.

The situation is worse for 140,000 people who live within an 18-mile exclusion zone around the plant. They were today ordered to stay indoors or be exposed to a dangerous level of radiation.

Plus, I just heard on the news that at the nuclear power plant site the radioactive levels are 400 times beyond the safe level... SHOCKING. :eeep:

(Those high levels will only be detected during the fires & explosions, when the radiation will be released & spread at high rates.)

Click Here for Excellent Article with Lots of Pictures Graphics & Video (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366308/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Meltdown-3rd-reactor-blast-hits-nuclear-plant.html)

flimseycauldron

March 15th, 2011, 5:25 pm

Japan crisis worse than Three Mile Island, experts say (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns/world_news-asiapacific?GT1=43001)

Mundungus Fletc

March 15th, 2011, 5:31 pm

Radiation levels are now reported falling since a fire was put out. The Guardian has an interesting graphic (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/15/radiation-exposure-levels-guide#zoomed-picture) showing what the various levels mean. So far they have been nowhere near a dangerous level - the government are obviously behaving very cautiously.

There is a lot of scaremongering going on

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 7:03 pm

SOMA, Japan — The catastrophe at Japan's stricken nuclear complex is now worse than Three Mile Island, experts said Tuesday, after the two most recent blasts exposed a spent fuel pool to outside air and might have compromised a reactor shield.

An explosion overnight at Unit 4 at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant opened two large holes in the structure housing spent nuclear fuel rods in a large pool.

Japanese officials told the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that the spent fuel storage area had caught fire and that radioactivity was "being released directly into the atmosphere."

After the fire was extinguished, a Japanese official said the spent fuel pool might still be boiling, though the reported levels of radiation had dropped dramatically by evening.
=====================

Notice how they always mention the radiation levels are dropping, but they don't ever mention how high the levels got to during the fires or explosions. Obviously, there is some 'cover-up' about what maximum levels have been detected already, imo.

Also, there is an admission that water levels can't be maintained due to an unknown cause for pressure leaks or cracks or maintaining cooling levels in safe zones, and I think this applies to the containment water in storage pools of spent fuel in unit 4, AND, also, the main reactor in unit 2 has pressure & coolant level issues too.

The explosion at Fukushima’s Reactor No. 2 on Tuesday morning sent radiation levels spiking, to 8,217 microsieverts an hour from 1,941 about 40 minutes earlier. Later Tuesday, Japanese nuclear officials announced much higher levels and evacuated most of the emergency workers.

gertiekeddle

March 15th, 2011, 7:14 pm

Hes, many international media peeps also went to Osaka this morning GMT. This is about further 500 miles from Tokyo, so that they believe to be save there.

There is a lot of scaremongering going onWasn't the fire put out twelve hours ago? Or was there a new fire in one of the storage rooms? BBC was reporting just two hours ago that radiation grows constantly, but it makes sense if this rather fit to the time during a fire only since these storages have no radiation casings on the same safety level than the reactors have. This can become a problem due to the cooling problems there too - if the storages burn, radiation unfortunately gets free uncontrolled. Good news is that Japan only puts very small amounts into these storages (compared eg to the US who do lots more).
I'm glad if the constant growing of radiation is a false information, in any case.

I agree that the government behaves as good as possible (from what we know right now), but I assume it's not so much scaremongering than also a mix between the lack of information - respectively also the mass of events which easily get mixed up in timelines like I did above - and the few bits we know about for sure:

By now it is confirmed both by Japanese officials and Tepco as also the IAEO and other international organisations, that four reactors loose radiation, one through a leak in its casing. What we don't know is how the cooling can be re-adjusted. What's impressive is that 50 Tepco workers still try to develop ideas. I believe those at least risk their lives for days now. However, this combination of known catastrophes and unknown reasons surely invites to scaremongering or, maybe, simply valid fears that things could get worse. I agree that it doesn't help to panic before the catastrophe is there.

Taking whichever measures can be taken in a destroyed area, however, looks very reasonable to me keeping in mind that the different types of radiation strike differently as well. As that I find it logical that Tepco workers were asked to leave the control rooms a few hours ago when the levels of radiation got to high.

I like that the Guardian reminds on the normal levels of radiation we all get every day. But my problem with the Guardian graphic is that it doesn't differ between different types of radiation when it comes to the critical levels. Some plutonium sorts eg can be deathly within hours, but can be hold back with the simplest measures (like wearing clothes). There is radiation which can be prevented for a good part by taking iodium, and others which unfortunately can't be helped if you're not behind some kind of reactor casing yourself, but wouldn't kill instantly.
So even if a level of 1000 mSv does 'only' lead to sickness but not kill a human, it might as well do a few years later by cancer, mess with your genes or - in a rather good case compared to other outcomes - lead to a sickness of tiredness and depression for a lifetime. There are of course always also many humans who get radiated and live through it rather unspoiled, but imo that doesn't neglect the dangers for those who can't. Humans react differently.

Reactors aren't bombs and Japanese officials seem to have reacted very well, admitting the circumstances. Modern technology helped a lot these days. So I think we won't get a few thousand dead people tomorrow, no matter what happens. But what we already have are humans who got radiated and as such will likely suffer from follow-up deseases. We likely get more, because the radiation is still flowing.
While Tokyo levels eg are far from being dangerous, the fact that they're also already raised is, I believe, actually worrying since it tells us that the radiation already reaches a rather big area. This wouldn't hurt if it stopped right now - due to the rather minor levels - but we know that Tepco isn't yet able to stop it and as such four reactors still loose radiation.

If you take the coolings with seawater eg, this is surely a smart idea. Just it also radiates the sea since the same water gets back into the sea. It's no more prevention, it's desaster management with taking some fall-offs during a catastrophe into account which can't be changed anymore.

Alastor

March 15th, 2011, 7:40 pm

Notice how they always mention the radiation levels are dropping, but they don't ever mention how high the levels got to during the fires or explosions. Obviously, there is some 'cover-up' about what maximum levels have been detected already, imo.
Actually the fact that radiation rose to a dangerous level this morning was reported. I seem to remember that 400 mSv/h was mentioned. But reporting the fact that there was less radiation in the afternoon plus the fact that the wind has shifted again to blow it out to sea is of course important too. Especially as reports say that Tokyo is very close to panic. Panic never helps, it makes things worse.

Anyway I do agree that it's obvious that Tepco from the beginning has been playing down the seriousness of what's going on. For example by claiming that reactors 4-6 are out of danger because they were shut down when the tsunami hit. By now we know that at least #4 is not. They should have told from the beginning that they can't guarantee that meltdowns can be avoided.

But I don't think that scaremongering makes anything better.

flimseycauldron

March 15th, 2011, 7:49 pm

Anyway I do agree that it's obvious that Tepco from the beginning has been playing down the seriousness of what's going on. For example by claiming that reactors 4-6 are out of danger because they were shut down when the tsunami hit. By now we know that at least #4 is not. They should have told from the beginning that they can't guarantee that meltdowns can be avoided.

But I don't think that scaremongering makes anything better.

I think what you are saying is that there is a fine line between creating a panic and scaremongering, right?

IMHO, if they are telling people to stay inside and making their residences airtight then the radiation levels are way to high. Add the fact that they are checking food for contamination and that, too, reflects dangerous levels of radiation. I don't think that is scaremongering.

Alastor

March 15th, 2011, 8:04 pm

I think what you are saying is that there is a fine line between creating a panic and scaremongering, right?

IMHO, if they are telling people to stay inside and making their residences airtight then the radiation levels are way to high. Add the fact that they are checking food for contamination and that, too, reflects dangerous levels of radiation. I don't think that is scaremongering.I don't call that scaremongering either. Telling the facts, both bad and good is important. Not telling the truth is what's dangerous. Or that's how I see it.

I think the scaremongers can mostly be found on the internet and in the media. Or call it disaster pornography if you like. :)

gertiekeddle

March 15th, 2011, 8:40 pm

I heard that there's a lack of iodine already at some places in the US(!). This I believe is a panic uncalled for. For particular since the use of iodine isn't free of danger either. Checking the news about where the atomic cloud is supposed to be aka the according websites on how the radiation level in the US is and if it raises at all, seems more logical to me.

There's indeed only small lines between telling facts - if we know what are the facts at all - , scaremongering and creating panic. Often people need to take the information they get more carefully I think, thinking in both ways. That should avoid panic by itself and keep people informed for logical decisions. Alas it doesn't always happen that way.

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 9:35 pm

Actually the fact that radiation rose to a dangerous level this morning was reported. I seem to remember that 400 mSv/h was mentioned.
400 mSv/h is definitely not safe. But searching Google on that number does not bring-up many news reports. Some blog type posts pull that number, but I'm not seeing this number reported at major news websites in large numbers. Why? Cover-up? Don't want to cause panic? No radiation numbers were ever given for each of the 3 explosions in the immediate area of the plant. We have no idea how much radiation was lofted in those 3 huge explosions, or what rained down within 500-1000 meters of the blast area.

The fact the Japanese authorities are now considering, after the fire, dumping water from helicopters over Unit 4 is very possibly a cover-up too, imo, by not directly stating the fires at Unit 4 have now contaminated the immediate area, so it is unsafe for humans to be on the ground at Unit 4.

Anyway, there is some kind of a cooling leak in the containment pools for spent fuel at Unit 4. I posted before the fire occurred that a nuclear scientist was warning the spent fuel could be very dangerous if it somehow caught fire. He stated there are 100's of tons of spent fuel stored 'there', but I don't know if he is accurate about that amount. He did say these storage pools are at the reactor sites & are not safe from fire or explosion damage.

Also, the power company Tepco has been known to lie about serious nuclear plant failures or nuclear accidents in the last decade. In fact, top management resigned as a result of one of those scandals falsifying accidents or failures by cover-up & lying. And, some of these accidents were also the result of not reporting what happened at a previous major earthquake event too.

Nothing is under control & cooling properly at Units 1, 2, 3, 4. I don't trust the situation based on recent disastrous massive failures at all four reactors; plus, add-in the past Tepco nuclear scandals with cover-ups & firing top management in the last decade.

Moriath

March 15th, 2011, 9:36 pm

flimseycauldron

March 15th, 2011, 10:21 pm

Well I don't know if panic is the appropriate term to use but as a general over all mood but panic buying may very well be in effect. Things like batteries, food, blankets etc etc are leaving shelves faster than they can be stocked in some cases. It's unclear whether families are hoarding these items, however.

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 10:28 pm

I'm not sure what's going on now as far as the nuclear stuff, but I'll probably learn more about it by tomorrow and if there'll be evacuations and all that. Still scary that I'm about 50 miles from Fukushima ...
I am concerned for our CoS member noted above. I would be very concerned about radiation exposure if I was living where she is... just a simple change in the wind direction could be dangerous.

Though, it seems she may be ok for now with the wind direction. Just make sure you're not downwind of those nuclear plants.

IMHO, if they are telling people to stay inside and making their residences airtight then the radiation levels are way too high. Add the fact that they are checking food for contamination and that, too, reflects dangerous levels of radiation. I don't think that is scaremongering.

Agreed. :tu:

gertiekeddle

March 15th, 2011, 11:12 pm

I think it was Reuters which reported that Tokyo was close to mass panic, when in fact the city was tense but calm, all things considered. People living there posted annoyed comments on the Guardian live blog about the media creating panic by writing about a panic that doesn't exist. I think one commenter said that the media should be contented with the disasters that are reality. While I agree that media shouldn't support developments which aren't yet there (if ever possible), I often read Reuters since they usually stick to descriptions rather than judgement. That's what one has to know if getting news up there. The word I saw used was 'fear' in relation to citizens who emptied groceries and the according request of the government from this afternoon to trust in the food supplies and leave some for the North. Maybe it was someone else who called it panic already?

That's said when it comes to descriptions of 'calm' and 'panic' these days I'm actually not buying the one or the other. It's a city with 35 million people. Might be that things seem to be calm for some, might be that others visited signs of panic. I assume it's as hard to judge upon this for single citizens as it is for media (for particular if most of them by now left Tokyo), but most likely all forms occur. All in all it seems there's no mass panic yet. I get the a very calm impression from people online, too, but that's only some part.

wandrider

March 15th, 2011, 11:39 pm

I heard that there's a lack of iodine already at some places in the US(!). This I believe is a panic uncalled for.
I agree with you, :) and I was surprised to see this report (see below). This seems a bit paranoid, as long as it does not get any worse...

The fear that a nuclear cloud could float from the shores of Japan to the shores of California has some people making a run on iodine tablets. Pharmacists across California report being flooded with requests.

State and county officials spent much of Tuesday trying to keep people calm by saying that getting the pills wasn't necessary, but then the United States surgeon general supported the idea as a worthy "precaution."

U.S. Surgeon General Regina Benjamin is in the Bay Area touring a peninsula hospital. NBC Bay Area reporter Damian Trujillo asked her about the run on tablets and Dr. Benjamin said although she wasn't aware of people stocking up, she did not think that would be an overreaction. She said it was right to be prepared.

Click Here Article: Surgeon-General-Buying-Iodine-Appropriate (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Surgeon-General-Buying-Iodine-Appropriate-118031559.html#)

I would be very concerned if I lived within 100 kilometers or 50 miles of those failing nuclear plants.

Red Alert Workers (Temporarily) Abandon Nuclear Plant, Attention Wednesday in Japan...

FUKUSHIMA, Japan – Japan ordered emergency workers to withdraw from its stricken nuclear power complex Wednesday amid a surge in radiation, temporarily suspending efforts to cool overheating reactors.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said the workers, who were dousing the reactors with seawater in a frantic effort to stabilize their temperatures, had no choice except to withdraw.

"The workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now," Edano said. "Because of the radiation risk we are on standby."

Obviously, this is a very dangerous situation risking huge releases of dangerous levels of radiation if fires keep burning. This is a Red Alert. I would leave that area & get at least 400-600 kilometers away if fires keep burning or workers don't return.

Hes

March 16th, 2011, 9:34 am

gertiekeddle

March 16th, 2011, 9:45 am

Actually I think it's valid to be worried in the US - it's not likely, but possible that the cloud reaches the Pacific Coast; there's no mountain in between where radiation could rain down, although of course the sea alone is a huge border. Just right now it doesn't seem to be helpful to take not even healthy measures against a danger, which is currently not present. I'd be more worried if I lived +- 200-300 miles around Fukushima, where the contamination through radiation currently seems to grow (depending on wind, though).

dobbydear15

March 16th, 2011, 9:48 am

What do we think the effects would be in the U.S. if the cloud does reach the Pacific Coast?

Hes

March 16th, 2011, 9:49 am

I've to agree that in the US the concerns may be valid, but not here, that cloud won't reach this place unless they all blow (at least I presume that, I've no real clue)

dobbydear15

March 16th, 2011, 9:57 am

Well I sincerely hope that there are no further issues with any reactors, so that the people of Japan can catch their breath and focus on rebuilding and the future!

Hes

March 16th, 2011, 10:00 am

Me too, they have gone through enough.

The World Health Organisation says there is no evidence of any significant spread of radiation. The WHO's Michael O'Leary urges governments and members of the public to take steps to halt rumours about "a threatening radiation cloud spreading across Asia".

gertiekeddle

March 16th, 2011, 10:01 am

What do we think the effects would be in the U.S. if the cloud does reach the Pacific Coast?Uhm, I'd recommend reading some experts' reviews; I'm interested in the topic for decades, but no expert myself.
But my best guess is that food could (depending on weather but more over on the success or non-success of the Tepco workers to get the reactors in controlled) get contaminated and as such leads to long-term illnesses. That's actually quite serious, because it can't be easily prevented. Even more the iodine doesn't seem to make sense, though: this is to avoid a radiation type to enter your body which basically exists (in dangerous measures) for a week only. Other radiation can enter the body still after years, but will more likely also cause long-term illnesses (if at all) than that it could lead to the radiation sickness which we know as illness being able to kill within weeks or days. The latter happening in the US looks almost impossible to me, but again, I'm no expert. All in all I'd be more worried about the safety of the 100+ US nuclear power plants and their waste storages.

Me too, they have gone through enough. The World Health Organisation says there is no evidence of any significant spread of radiation. The WHO's Michael O'Leary urges governments and members of the public to take steps to halt rumours about "a threatening radiation cloud spreading across Asia".

Sometimes I wonder if the people who try to prevent panics actually spread even more. I'm reading much about the events these days, but I've not yet seen anyone spreading rumours about a cloud covering whole Asia. It seems some media choose unfortunate words in describing the events at Fukushima, but usually they stick to describing what could or what is currently happen to the population of Northern Japan (incl. Tokyo, though).

flimseycauldron

March 16th, 2011, 2:47 pm

Sometimes I wonder if the people who try to prevent panics actually spread even more. I'm reading much about the events these days, but I've not yet seen anyone spreading rumours about a cloud covering whole Asia. It seems some media choose unfortunate words in describing the events at Fukushima, but usually they stick to describing what could or what is currently happen to the population of Northern Japan (incl. Tokyo, though).

I think you're right. And also let's be honest and remember that some people will always see the worst case scenario regardless of the facts of the situation. Then given the fact that information is slow (by today's standards) it's easy to let ones imagination run away. Also it occurs to me that the word panic, in and of itself, is subjective. When I think of the word panic I think if riots in the streets and stores being looted etc etc I don't think that people buying up iodine pills qualifies as being panic driven.

Questions on iodine. Someone told me that the iodine you take has to be sodium iodine? And that it is only good for preventing radiation build up in your thyroid, not the rest of your body?

wandrider

March 16th, 2011, 3:21 pm

Questions on iodine. Someone told me that the iodine you take has to be sodium iodine? And that it is only good for preventing radiation build up in your thyroid, not the rest of your body?

You need... Potassium Iodide.

It is especially effective if you are a child or teen or young adult under 25yo. This is because the thyroid is more likely to be affected by radiation during your growth years.

It is only protective for your thyroid by helping to prevent some thyroid cancers caused by this type of radiation exposure.

It should be taken before you are exposed by radiation, if possible.

It does have some preventative effects for adults too, so it's not 'just' for children or teens.

FYI Update for Wednesday:

The Japanese government has actually amended its national safety standard on how much radiation workers can be exposed to so that workers can return to the plant. The limit is now 250 millisieverts, 2.5 times the previous limit.

This will be dangerous for these workers if they get too many hours at this exposure rate.

Hes

March 16th, 2011, 3:25 pm

Please do not use caps, on the internet caps are considered yelling. Please bold your words if you want to emphasize something, thanks :)

Melaszka

March 16th, 2011, 3:27 pm

Questions on iodine. Someone told me that the iodine you take has to be sodium iodine? And that it is only good for preventing radiation build up in your thyroid, not the rest of your body?

I'm no scientist, but from what I've read, my understanding is that the iodine being issued is specifically to combat the problem of radioactive iodine released from the nuclear reactor - that affects mainly the thyroid, because that is the part of the body that uses iodine and, if untreated, the radioactive iodine lodges there and causes cancer. If you take lots of non-radioactive iodine at the same time, it lowers the risk, because the thyroid will absorb the good iodine and you won't be getting a neat hit from the carcinogenic iodine.

It does not, however, protect against other types of radiation damage.

As I said, though, I know nothing about science, so I may have totally mangled that information.

wandrider

March 16th, 2011, 3:50 pm

Anyone watch the Science Channel? Talk about panic...

The science channel's favorite scientist Dr. Michio Kaku was talking about ditching all 4-6 Units at the nuclear plant yesterday on some news channel. He talked about doing what the Russians did with Chernobyl by dumping sandbags & cement by helicopters & encasing the damaged units.

Panic?

Also, from another article...

"We're very close now to the point of no return," Dr. Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist, said. "It's gotten worse. We're talking about workers coming into the reactor perhaps as a suicide mission and we may have to abandon ship."

A group of 180 workers rotate shifts working at the plant in teams of 50 men. The men have been nicknamed the "Fukushima Fifty."

When radiation levels surged following a fire at Unit 4 and a rising cloud of radioactive vapor from unit 3, officials deemed it too risky for the plant workers to continue their critical work of pumping sea water on the damaged reactors and fuel ponds.

"The workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told the Associated Press. "Because of the radiation risk we are on standby."

Click Here for Complete Article (http://abcnews.go.com/International/japan-nuclear-crisis-rising-radiation-levels-halt-fukushima/story?id=13146516)

Mundungus Fletc

March 16th, 2011, 4:04 pm

SSJ_Jup81

March 16th, 2011, 4:25 pm

Wow! Do you have good roads to leave the area if necessary? Would you be stuck on the road from evacuation traffic?Should be okay, but my problem is that I don't drive over here. I don't own a car or any type of vehicle. I don't even own a bike (funny enough, I don't know how to ride one).

That aside, I'm 80km (about 50 miles) north (northeast, maybe) of Fukushima, which is why there's no "evacuation" stuff for Yamagata. I guess being surrounded by the mountains are helpful too (the city name means shaped like mountain...sorta). They're only evacuating those who are between 20 - 30km away and those at about 30km, they are telling to stay inside.I hope your home is sealed from outside air intakes for cooling/heating & doors & windows are sealed??? You want to make sure you are NOT downwind of the failing plants. I would wear a breathing mask outside & shower well every day. Plus, wash clothes every day.I'm actually north of Fukushima. The winds are blowing everything south, seemingly, like towards the Tokyo area (Kanto).That fire would have released a lot of radiation already & when they -already admit- the rods may have melted, this means they have -already detected- the substances in the rods that escaped from the melting!!! This means the situation is much worse, because they have to cool these DAMAGED reactors & waste pools FOR MONTHS before it is truly under control. And, there is =already melting= of the rods detected.

This cooling battle will not be won for months, though I would hope it will be "under control" within days or weeks. Given that the situation has been getting worse for the last week there is no sign it is getting under control now.

Plus, those plant workers have to be getting exhausted & reaching their radiation exposure limits, so there may be real problems continuing to work on this emergency basis.It's depressing to think about.Good luck with your situation, but please be very defensive to protect yourself & family. Do you have children or teens there? If so, I would get them on the potassium iodine now.Wow, I'm kind of young to have kids in their teens. :p *Points to profile and age* So nope, no kids.

wandrider

March 16th, 2011, 4:30 pm

...In the twenty years after Chernobyl around 8,000 died as a consequence in Russia (from google - there would have been deaths in Ukraine and Belarus as well. During the same twenty years well over half a million people died in road crashes in Russia

This is possibly true, not certain about Google Chernobyl death sources, but! Unlike car crashes...

There is genetic damage & deformities caused by Chernobyl, and this affects (innocent future) generations of people & mammals in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

There is also radiation damage to the environment, so some places in Europe, including Scotland, can not eat certain farm animals or even mushrooms (in Poland). Whole regions have dangerous radiation exposure that will negatively affect the local lives of animals & humans including genetic damage for numerous generations.

There are still a lot of unknowns with radiation damage, but some dangerous forms last for hundreds & thousands of years, so humans tend to be more cautious and fearful about what might happen but can't be proved or known or easily detected for each specific incident. The car crash happens to the specific crash victims, but the 'radiation crash' can happen over & over for maybe thousands of years 'crashing' millions of people & animals.

Here is an excellent YouTube video from Dr. Michio Kaku ...

Famous Science Channel Physicist Dr. Michio Kaku Discussing Nuclear Plant Dangers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfJQzxK4nU&feature=player_embedded)

I think it is interesting he compares this incident to Chernobyl, and he is American Japanese from Japanese immigrants.

flimseycauldron

March 16th, 2011, 4:34 pm

The science channel's favorite scientist Dr. Michio Kaku was talking about ditching all 4-6 Units at the nuclear plant yesterday on some news channel. He talked about doing what the Russians did with Chernobyl by dumping sandbags & cement by helicopters & encasing the damaged units.

Well I imagine thaat they have many final contingency plans. I don't think because such plans are in existence means very much.

Even if the situation is as bad as Chernobyl (and there is no way of knowing whether that is the case) it's worth putting that event in perspective. In the twenty years after Chernobyl around 8,000 died as a consequence in Russia (from google - there would have been deaths in Ukraine and Belarus as well).

During the same twenty years well over half a million people died in road crashes in Russia

Is this a reason to not abandon nuclear power as a whole or just in Japan? The thing that worries me about the workers in Japan right now is that there isn't exactly a plethora of nuclear physicists in the world. If these men die who takes their place?

I'm no scientist, but from what I've read, my understanding is that the iodine being issued is specifically to combat the problem of radioactive iodine released from the nuclear reactor - that affects mainly the thyroid, because that is the part of the body that uses iodine and, if untreated, the radioactive iodine lodges there and causes cancer. If you take lots of non-radioactive iodine at the same time, it lowers the risk, because the thyroid will absorb the good iodine and you won't be getting a neat hit from the carcinogenic iodine.

It does not, however, protect against other types of radiation damage.

As I said, though, I know nothing about science, so I may have totally mangled that information.

I wonder how many people think the iodine will prevent radiation sickness/poisoning altogether?

Alastor

March 16th, 2011, 5:53 pm

REMINDER

CoS Forums is not a place for advise & counseling. By all means discuss the pros and cons of this or that, but please refrain from giving advise.

One post deleted.

gertiekeddle

March 16th, 2011, 6:09 pm

Even if the situation is as bad as Chernobyl (and there is no way of knowing whether that is the case) it's worth putting that event in perspective. In the twenty years after Chernobyl around 8,000 died as a consequence in Russia (from google - there would have been deaths in Ukraine and Belarus as well).

During the same twenty years well over half a million people died in road crashes in RussiaI'm honest, I don't get the car driving comparison since I don't see a level of comparison. But either way: don't trust any stats you didn't do yourself. :lol: Background: A research of German scientists found out in 2006 that up to this year already up to 100.000 people who eg helped closing the protection in Chernobyl died. 450.000 - 900.000 are invalids today as consequence of the reactor accident. According to this study, a few ten-thousand babies have been born with genetic damages in Chernobyl area alone.
These numbers exclude many more victims not being working / living in the region around Chernobyl. Source (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/zeitgeschichte/0,1518,410268,00.html) (in German, sorry - but I believe there are similar researches in other languages as well).

I don't know which numbers are right and which are wrong, but the scientists further claim to have proven that the number of 22000 the IEAO stated as official Chernobyl dead toll in 2006 (that's still more than 8000) is wrong since they use different datas in their own researches.

We're certainly used to loose many humans in catastrophes every year. We just did in Japan where probably over 10000 people died by earthquake and tsunami. I agree some immediate deaths more by nuclear accident is a relative event among these horrible situations. But problematic in my view is that nuclear catastrophes don't stop their effects after a few days or weeks, but keep damaging over generations.

wandrider

March 16th, 2011, 6:46 pm

More on the emergency responders at nuclear site:

Since the disaster struck in Japan, about 800 workers have been evacuated from the damaged nuclear complex in Fukushima. The radiation danger is that great.

However, CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod reports that a handful have stayed on the job, risking their lives, to try to save the lives of countless people they don't even know. The exact number of workers is unclear and has been reported to be anywhere from 50 to 180.

Although communication with the workers inside the nuclear plant is nearly impossible, a CBS News consultant spoke to a Japanese official who made contact with one of the workers inside the control center.

The official said that his friend told him that he was not afraid to die, that that was his job.

Complete Article Click Here (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/15/eveningnews/main20043554.shtml)

=========================

TOKYO – Thursday in Japan, a nearly completed new power line could restore electric cooling systems in Japan's tsunami-crippled nuclear plant, its operator said Thursday, raising hopes of easing the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman Naoki Tsunoda said the new power line to Fukushima Dai-ichi is almost complete. Officials plan to try it "as soon as possible" but he could not say when.

Meanwhile, conditions at the plant appeared to worsen Wednesday, with white smoke pouring from the reactor complex and a dangerous surge in radiation levels forcing workers to retreat for hours from their struggle to cool the overheating reactors.

The chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency said he would go to Japan as soon as possible to assess the danger. He called the situation serious and urged the Japanese government to provide better information to the agency.

The new line would revive electric-powered pumps, allowing the company to maintain a steady water supply to troubled reactors and spent fuel storage ponds, keeping them cool. The company is also trying to repair its existing disabled power line.

=========================

Self-Defense Forces helicopters dropped water on the troubled No. 3 reactor of the Fukushima nuclear power plant on Thursday morning as it is feared the reactor may have released radioactive steam due to damage to its containment vessel.

The Defense Ministry had given up on the deployment of Ground Self-Defense Force helicopters due to the high radiation level Wednesday.

Tokyo police, meanwhile, plan to use a water cannon truck to attempt to cool a spent fuel rod pool in a bid to contain the disaster at the troubled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power station in Japan.

In the unprecedented move, they aim to cool the possibly overheating pool of the No. 4 reactor to prevent the discharge of highly-concentrated radioactive materials.

=========================

Now there are dead, missing, and injured at crippled nuclear plant...

Nuclear safety officials in France said they were “pessimistic” about whether engineers could prevent a meltdown at the Fukushima power plant after a pool containing spent fuel rods overheated and boiled dry.

Last night (Wednesday) radiation levels were “extremely high” in the stricken building, which was breached by an earlier explosion, meaning that radiation could now escape into the atmosphere. Tokyo Electric, the owners of the plant, said five workers had been killed [Edit: now unconfirmed -reason for new edit on Friday.] at the site, two were missing and 21 had been injured.

Hes

March 17th, 2011, 12:00 pm

The attempt to use water canons to cool down the reactors has failed, the radiation level is too high.

canismajoris

March 17th, 2011, 1:03 pm

This all makes me wonder whether the worst-case scenario was seriously considered in the moments after the earthquake and tsunami. It seems like with each update we learn that officials and engineers are saying "here's what we should have done yesterday, let's see if it works."

I just hope they're evacuating and the winds and waters cooperate.

gertiekeddle

March 17th, 2011, 3:20 pm

I agree that likely nobody ever expected such a catastrophe in Japan. As so many they believed their power plants would be safe. Somehow that only always gets defeated when the accident already has happened.

It was desaster-management from the start. They can't prevent an accident anymore since we had this from first day on, but they try to avoid the next worst-case scenario. And we get used to it, I think. Water guns fight a nuclear catastrophe? If you had told me so last week, I had laughed loudly and thought this to be impossible. I really much hope that's not just an last exit attempt but actually an idea which could work. When I think of it I don't believe people would continue risking their lives if they hadn't hope that one of their measures could help, but on the other hand it's probably impossible to just leave the set.

My best hopes are that they manage to get electricity back to help the cooling. I actually missed why it wasn't possible to start re-constructing the lines before yesterday, but I'm glad they can work on it by now.

MmeBergerac

March 17th, 2011, 3:29 pm

Is anyone else ashamed of the behaviour of the media? I don't know in the US, but at least here in Spain (and I think that in the rest of the UE) they seem to be anxious for the nuclear apocalypse. My best friend's girlfriend is from Tokyo and lives there, and she has to tell him everyday that at least in Tokyo there's no chaos, and no terror and, at the moment, no danger. And I know of several Spanish living in Tokyo that talked to the media in good faith to see their words manipulated to make things look worse, or that have decided to come back home, not because they feel they're in danger, but because their families were sickly worried every time they watched the news, no matter what they told them on the phone.

gertiekeddle

March 17th, 2011, 3:34 pm

I don't see this much in our media, but I think I avoid tabloids and similar press anyway. Actually the image I get is a rather diverted: many people seem to be calm, some also seem to get scared (foreigners who get more urgent warnings from their home countries first, Japanese people later). Some don't quite change their daily life (expect in helping the many other victims of the catastrophe), some rather fill their storages with food.

What I get by media I choose to watch is actually rather a hope to finally report that things are back into control, but there's a fully different impression when I check my emails and read the newslines there: there I get this anxious waiting impression you describe, too. Ugly.

wandrider

March 17th, 2011, 3:50 pm

I reported in earlier posts that nuclear experts said that the spent fuel was a real concern, and that these spent fuel rods were stored elevated 'near the top' of the main reactor. I could not believe this was true though, so I asked if anyone knew about it.

For the first time I saw a graphic diagram on the news that showed this storage pool. And, yes, these holding tanks/pools are near the top of the reactor, surprisingly, well elevated above ground level. The spent fuel is said not to have the same protective containment as the reactor, yet this spent fuel is potentially more dangerous if not kept covered with water.

Why? Because there is a lot more quantity of spent fuel compared to new reactor fuel, and this much greater quantity can release more dangerous radiation with less protective containment than the main reactor.

My logical conclusion & prediction is this will ultimately be the worst nuclear disaster to date, including Chernobyl, if the spent fuel ponds are allowed to lose the water covering the used fuel. Why? The storage containment tank/pool is elevated above ground next to the main reactor, so any damage to the containment holding tank might allow for fast water leaks AND spreading of lethal radioactive contamination preventing workers from getting near the area. If this happens, then it may not be possible to refill the holding tanks/pools due to damage AND it will likely release lethal levels of radiation when water is refilled. These holding tanks were never designed to be filled with water AFTER the spent fuel is super heated & not covered with water. It might just release all the lethal radiation into the air from the super heated steam that will boil off. Remember, the containment outer building or roofs have exploded away, so all this lethal radiation will rise & go straight up into the atmosphere.

A few news reports already hinted or suggested one of the spent fuel pools has some kind of leak or damage to containment, and it has had a fire possibly in the spent fuel after water drained and/or evaporated from the holding tank/pool.

Now, 5 to 7 plant workers are dead (unconfirmed by plant/government sources) and another 20+ are injured. Sadly, I expect many radiation exposure injuries & eventually radiation deaths for some, if not many, of the plant workers. When emergency crews are trying to drop water from helicopters or spray it from far away with water cannons, then this is an admission the radiation levels are too high to get near that area to cool it properly.

Maybe if electricity is restored they can remotely pump in water to cool the spent fuel ponds & reactors, but I think this may be their only hope at this point. Also, if the pools are already empty of water, then refilling the containment pools could be very dangerous too. It might cause fires & release of very high levels of lethal radiation not detected before.

All that I have said in this post has been stated by nuclear power plant experts, so these are not my ideas. These are my logical conclusions & predictions given that I can find no positive results. Restoring the electric power to the pumps to cool down all 1, 2, 3, 4 reactors & holding ponds/tanks is critical for saving each reactor from its own total disaster.

Is this possible? Yes! Is it likely -all four- reactors will each avoid its own total disaster? Imho, I doubt it. I think the Japanese are due for some luck, and I hope & pray they will be lucky with all four reactors. :angel:

At this point I think it's tremendous progress in cooling everything down & tremendous luck that will be needed along with great sacrifice to achieve it.

Update on fuel rod quantities:

Reactor #1 70 tons of fuel in reactor 50 tons in spent fuel pool
Reactor #2 90 tons in reactor 100 tons in spent fuel
Reactor #3 90 tons in reactor 90 tons in spent fuel
Reactor #4 90 tons in reactor 130 tons in spent fuel
Reactor #5 90 tons in reactor 160 in spent fuel
Reactor #6 130 tons in reactor 150 tons in spent fuel

TOTALS: 560 tons of fuel in the reactors plus 680 tons of spent fuel in the pools for a whopping total of 1,240 tons. If you put this up against Chernobyl with 180 tons of fuel - you have 7 times the amount of fuel with this disaster.

What do you think will happen?

flimseycauldron

March 17th, 2011, 4:04 pm

What I get by media I choose to watch is actually rather a hope to finally report that things are back into control, but there's a fully different impression when I check my emails and read the newslines there: there I get this anxious waiting impression you describe, too. Ugly.

:agree: IMO, a picture is worth a thousand words. After Katrina you could see the panic and the desperation via video and photography. All the pictures I've seen of Japan have seemed quite orderly and calm given the circumstances. But just reading words your minds eye provides the pictures which can be even worse.

Also while the possibility of nuclear meltdown is nothing to be trifled with we still have to remember that there are people deceased, injured, and homeless, freezing and starving due to just the earthquake and tsunami. We shouldn't forget about them.

wandrider

March 17th, 2011, 4:47 pm

My best friend's girlfriend is from Tokyo and lives there, and she has to tell him everyday that at least in Tokyo there's no chaos, and no terror and, at the moment, no danger.
Culturally and historically the Japanese are known to be very obedient to national authority & direction. The Japanese are also very supportive of each other as 'a group' or nation beyond individual needs or ego. It is said "the nail that sticks out is hammered down".

It is widely reported daily & repeatedly that Tokyo is like a ghost town 'outdoors'. There are extremely low levels of traffic & people seen outdoors except at grocery stores or gas stations. Also, it is widely reported that the airports are overflowed with foreigners leaving, and that many Japanese are leaving too.

Most Japanese have no choice but to stay indoors & remain calm & cooperative, and I would never expect them to be otherwise. It's a cultural norm with a long tradition & history for the Japanese to act this way.

Had this accident occurred in the USA or France or UK or Germany or EU, then you can be certain the reaction would be totally different. The Japanese are a unique culture & people, and they have faced the two worst nuclear tragedies in history already! So, this is something the Japanese are painfully aware of already (1945) & have dealt with before.

Add in the Earthquake & Tsunami & it's a tri-mega-disaster, and I think it is 'panic' for everyone else but the Japanese.

alwaysme

March 17th, 2011, 4:50 pm

Had this accident occurred in the USA or France or UK or Germany or EU, then you can be certain the reaction would be totally different. The Japanese are a unique culture & people, and they have faced the two worst nuclear tragedies in history already! So, this is something the Japanese are painfully aware of already & have dealt with before.

Add in the Earthquake & Tsunami & it's a mega-disaster, and I think it is 'panic' for everyone else but the Japanese.

I don't really think it's fair to assume how other people would react around the world purely based on their culture.

Moriath

March 17th, 2011, 5:08 pm

Mundungus Fletc

March 17th, 2011, 5:25 pm

It is indeed sickening and, in my view, it is not just the yellow press that is indulging in what Alastor so aptly called 'disaster pornography'.
But it sells newspapers and gets people watching TV.

There was a quote on the BBC website from a Westerner in Tokyo asking why the West is so concerned by what he called the "non event" of the nuclear power stations (under control and no threat to anyone outside the immediate area) whilst they are ignoring the real tragedy further North - the area affected by the Tsunami. I guess a tsunami is "too yesterday" for the media

gertiekeddle

March 17th, 2011, 5:33 pm

I got the impression the tsunami damage in the North partly can't be helped because the streets are damaged - and partly because the area is already contaminated. It seems to be different for Japanese helpers and international ones, luckily for those who are in need of help, since many international organisations withdraw their teams from the area.

I don't know about the tsunami but a Japanese student I randomly know just said that's not so much what confuses people. It's the strongest earthquakes people ever experiences there, but earthquakes are still something known. They are more worried about the nuclear effects because that's the yet unknown event. How they are worried is shown differently, rating from calm to showing fear. How the general atmosphere is is something what I believe none of us can judge about. I saw reporters speaking about the unusual calm city of Tokyo during a Monday morning and an half hour later another one telling the viewers it's all as usual on another channel. Most likely all forms of reaction appear.

wandrider

March 17th, 2011, 5:38 pm

I don't really think it's fair to assume how other people would react around the world purely based on their culture.You mean where I wrote: Add in the Earthquake & Tsunami & it's a tri-mega-disaster, and I think it is 'panic' for everyone else but the Japanese.I think a lot of 'outsiders looking in' from afar seem to be panicked about the nuclear disasters in Japan. (Real "panic" is a very relative & loose term in this context of people in other countries not facing any of these disasters where they live.) I do think there would be much more panic & fear had these disasters occurred in the countries I mentioned.

Also, as you (may have) suggested to the contrary, I based no assumptions purely on 'their culture' about how other people would react. Culture is mentioned in the context of a country's history & experiences with specific types of disasters. Also, I discuss culture in the context of the 'national sociology' of its people too, and the Japanese have unique 'national characteristics' that make their history & culture unique compared to the nations I mentioned. (For example, respect for authority & acting calmly or humbly as 'a group' even during hardships & sacrifice are prized attributes in Japanese culture, but, obviously, this is not my only point or reasoning.)

Only Japan has faced numerous disasters of these three types: earthquakes, tsunamis, and nuclear disasters. No other country has faced even two of these at the same time. (Edit: I meant faced a nuclear disaster & one of the other disasters: earthquake or tsunami. Earthquakes & tsunamis often happen together.)

alwaysme

March 17th, 2011, 5:59 pm

Right and I'll repeat the same thing I did in my previous post. We have no way of knowing how people would react simply based on where they live. I think it would most likely vary person to person.

While it's true that Japan has faced many disasters it wouldn't be a stretch to assume their are some who are panicked, while others may not be. The media cannot show us every single person.

Redhart

March 17th, 2011, 6:03 pm

Only Japan has faced numerous disasters of these three types: earthquakes, tsunamis, and nuclear disasters. No other country has faced even two of these at the same time.
Actually, Indonesia on 12/26/04 did suffer from two-- the earthquake and massive tsunami, at the same time. Also, Mt. Pinatubo in the Phillipines erupted as a hurricane hit.
Chili, 3/08, also suffered a great quake and tsunami at the same time.

The difference is the nuclear emergency in addition.
I do not recall many that have been hit with a nuclear disaster amid two (or even one) natural disasters, however.

Fury

March 17th, 2011, 6:09 pm

I just saw this on twitter, though it didn't give the source for it.

Japanese nuclear worker on the news: "I am prepared to die to avoid meltdown."

Mundungus Fletc

March 17th, 2011, 6:09 pm

wandrider

March 17th, 2011, 6:17 pm

Actually, Indonesia on 12/26/04 did suffer from two-- the earthquake and massive tsunami, at the same time. Also, Mt. Pinatubo in the Phillipines erupted as a hurricane hit.
Chili, 3/08, also suffered a great quake and tsunami at the same time.

The difference is the nuclear emergency in addition.
I do not recall many that have been hit with a nuclear disaster amid two (or even one) natural disasters, however.
Thanks for pointing that out & finding my mistake. Sorry, I was not clear in my writing. I meant to connect the nuclear disaster with one of the other two: earthquake or tsunami.

It's a case of my head thinking one idea, and my fingers typing another idea. Of course, many earthquakes come with tsunamis, so "my bad". :blush:

Yoana

March 17th, 2011, 7:15 pm

Is anyone else ahamed of the behaviour of the media? I don't know in the US, but at least here in Spain (and I think that in the rest of the UE) they seem to be anxious for the nuclear apocalypse. My best friend's girlfriend is from Tokyo and lives there, and she has to tell him everyday that at least in Tokyo there's no chaos, and no terror and, at the moment, no danger. And I know of several Spanish living in Tokyo that talked to the media in good faith to see their words manipulated to make things look worse, or that have decided to come back home, not because they feel they're in danger, but because their families were sickly worried every time they watched the news, no matter what they told them on the phone.

YES. I have a friend in Tokyo and she tweeted regularly about everything that was happening and everything that she was hearing and seeing around her, in Bulgarian, in real time, so for us that was the best news source we got. A lot of people started following her on Twitter and the media got really interested and made numerous Skype interviews with her. And every single time she told them there was no panic, and people were scared but not hysterical, and everyone was following orders - and every time the reporters looked SO disappointed that she weren't scaring the **** out of their viewers. And of course when they were done with her they inevitably made some snide remarks how not everyone shares her composure and babbled on about what we should do in case of radiation even though there is NO threat of radiation in Europe at the moment. In the end they managed to scare her mother to death who made her evacuate to Kyoto even though my friend is there on a scholarship and has work to do in Tokyo. They're shameless sensationalists.

Kevin

March 17th, 2011, 8:41 pm

The BBc has just broadcast Material World (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qyyb) a regular science programme, this week about the nuclear power plants in Japan. I found it a useful antidote to the more lurid reporting elsewhere. It will be available on iplayer in an hour or so.

Immediately after was the regular news which was as hysterical as ever :rolleyes:

Hysteria drives up ratings. It's the thing i hate about the rolling 24 hour news channels turning every event into a circus and taking attention away from the problems on the ground.

As for the current Nuclear issues ? It's not a disaster yet, for that to happen you would need for one of the reactors to meltdown and break through the containment structures and then a massive explosion of steam to occur which would then release significant amounts of radioactive material into the environment (as happened in chernobyl, though that was down to a flawed reactor design and human error). If the cooling systems had not failed and the backups then we wouldn't be where we are at the moment.
I imagine that once the situation is bought under control they will simply dump tonnes of sand over the reactors and pour concrete over them to seal them as happened in Chernobyl.

Redhart

March 17th, 2011, 9:36 pm

Well, I do sort of have to disagree. The nuclear reactor issues of Japan do qualify in my book as a bonefide disaster, one of a package of disasters that has hit the noble country of Japan right now. Locally, to those in that area, it's a terrible and frightening thing I'm sure. There are some very real concerns and burdens for them, along with decisions that may have to be made to abandon homes and lives to keep their families safe and healthy.

Is it a disaster to the poster I just read (on some other site) who's currently popping iodine pills and in her backyard with her brand new geiger counter posting hourly on the readings (of which she has no clue how to interpret)...certain all of us will soon grow a third eye?

No.
I can almost see her in her pink, fuzzy slippers --checking her pulse and adjusting her tin foil hat (which, btw, may block alpha and beta which are not dangerous, but nothing to block the deadly gamma rays. It shoots through like tissue paper)--yelling at her poor husband to keep digging...not much time to get that bunker in.

That's illogical hysteria.

I've read that a pack of iodine pills (as included in some emergency kits just a month ago) that went for $10 now are selling out at $289/pack.

The greatest thing to fear, indeed, appear to be fear itself.

I don't see a lot of the main media hyping it too much...but the fringe media certainly is. Those who wish to use recent events to support their apocolyptic agendas are rolling in and flinging it while spinning in their chairs. They see it as a vehicle to build readership/viewership/profits on their conspiratorial theories. They see it as a way to make a quick buck on the fear-driven and science-lite educated...bucks that could have been used to help feed someone in a shelter, provide heat, or help give medical aide to injured.

The tragedy here is some real good could be going on, aid collected and sent, goodwill and prayers said...but the opportunities are quickly being diluted by self-serving agents who revel in doomsaying and promote disaster-junki-ism.

This board is not one that seems prone to that...thank goodness. There seems to be some genuine concern, compassion and good information going out. Unfortunately, this board seems to be in a minority across the internet right now.

Glad you all are here...like an offramp amid the million-car-pileup of the internet highway.

flimseycauldron

March 17th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Glad you all are here...like an offramp amid the million-car-pileup of the internet highway.

:) Well you know things are bad when even the trainwrecks slow down to watch the million car pile-up. Not saying we're a trainwreck but you get the idea.

wandrider

March 17th, 2011, 9:46 pm

As for the current Nuclear issues ? It's not a disaster yet, for that to happen you would need for one of the reactors to meltdown and break through the containment structures and then a massive explosion of steam to occur which would then release significant amounts of radioactive material into the environment (as happened in chernobyl, though that was down to a flawed reactor design and human error).You have to add to this the 'spent fuel' disasters too. Each reactor has about 90 tons of spent fuel in the storage pools onsite. One has about 70 tons. [Edit: It appears to be much more than that. See fuel rod amounts at end of post.]

This post will cover disaster details about 'spent fuel'...

Click Here for Details about Spent Fuel Dangers (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=5711181&postcount=121)

The 'spent fuel' has more potential to be more dangerous during an uncontrolled release than the active reactor fuel. There are already deadly releases of this dangerous radiation, so workers already have to 'stand off' & not be able to do repairs inside these areas except for maybe a few minutes each day per worker. Contamination may escalate to prevent any repairs or cooling, and then it will only get much worse before the entire site may have to be encased in a giant concrete coffin.

Already, 4-6 reactors will be a total loss. That is a financial & energy production loss & disaster at the very least. Plus, we're already in 'disaster mode' with many plant workers dead & injured, radioactive contamination zones surround these failed reactors well beyond the plant property, and this is already rated as the 2nd worst nuclear power disaster. There is real opportunity to surpass Chernobyl if cooling is not under control within days.

Update on fuel rod quantities:

Reactor #1 70 tons of fuel in reactor 50 tons in spent fuel pool
Reactor #2 90 tons in reactor 100 tons in spent fuel
Reactor #3 90 tons in reactor 90 tons in spent fuel
Reactor #4 90 tons in reactor 130 tons in spent fuel
Reactor #5 90 tons in reactor 160 in spent fuel
Reactor #6 130 tons in reactor 150 tons in spent fuel

TOTALS: 560 tons of fuel in the reactors plus 680 tons of spent fuel in the pools for a whopping total of 1,240 tons. If you put this up against Chernobyl with 180 tons of fuel - you have 7 times the amount of fuel with this disaster.

Original Sourcing Includes Japan NHK News (http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/)

Thursday in Japan:

High radiation level detected 30km from nuke plant

Japan's science ministry says radiation levels of up to 0.17 millisieverts per hour have been detected about 30 kilometers northwest of the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Experts say exposure to those levels for 6 hours would result in absorption of the maximum level considered safe for 1 year.

What do you think will happen?

Famous Science Channel personality & Professor of Physics at NYU, Michio Kaku, said "the spraying [or dropping] of water onto the spent fuel tanks is like using a squirt gun to take-on a forest fire". Kaku is promoting the idea of encasing the reactors in concrete just as the Russians did with Chernobyl. He says "these are four gigantic pieces of junk" & "things are as stable as hanging [on a cliff] by your fingernails".

gertiekeddle

March 18th, 2011, 7:43 am

It's not a disaster yet, for that to happen you would need for one of the reactors to meltdown and break through the containment structures and then a massive explosion of steam to occur which would then release significant amounts of radioactive material into the environment (as happened in chernobyl, though that was down to a flawed reactor design and human error). If the cooling systems had not failed and the backups then we wouldn't be where we are at the moment.That's true - that's what Japanese workers risk their lives for currently, to avoid a level 7 accident. We're still at 5. As much as I believe the situation is already a catastrophe, the worst case still able to happen in Fukushima is, despite all modernizing, an accident worse than Chernobyl, so let's hope this weekend will see us the most urgent damages fixed so that cooling finally works again.

I imagine that once the situation is bought under control they will simply dump tonnes of sand over the reactors and pour concrete over them to seal them as happened in Chernobyl.This was renewed shortly ago, so that it holds for another fifteen years. I wish we had a more efficient method of dealing with catastrophes yet.

mysterious

March 18th, 2011, 2:23 pm

Kevin

March 18th, 2011, 5:04 pm

Well, I do sort of have to disagree. The nuclear reactor issues of Japan do qualify in my book as a bonefide disaster, one of a package of disasters that has hit the noble country of Japan right now. Locally, to those in that area, it's a terrible and frightening thing I'm sure. There are some very real concerns and burdens for them, along with decisions that may have to be made to abandon homes and lives to keep their families safe and healthy.

The Disaster for the Nuclear reactors will be if there are several meltdowns and explosions of steam occur that release massive amounts of Radioactive particles into the Environment. Along with the spent fuel rods releasing their radioactive material. Only then will it be worse than Chernobyl. Cesium (forget which isotope) is the radioactive particle to worry about, as that gets into the food chain very easily.

That's true - that's what Japanese workers risk their lives for currently, to avoid a level 7 accident. We're still at 5. As much as I believe the situation is already a catastrophe, the worst case still able to happen in Fukushima is, despite all modernizing, an accident worse than Chernobyl, so let's hope this weekend will see us the most urgent damages fixed so that cooling finally works again.

They designed the reactors for everything but a Tsunami, I believe a Japanese Nuclear expert was warning about the danger for quite sometime.
Hopefully they can get the cooling systems working again, if they can't then It's all bets are off time. I suspect the workers at the Fukushima plant are well aware of the risks and dangers, in fact I believe one worker said he was willing to die to prevent the looming disaster.

This was renewed shortly ago, so that it holds for another fifteen years. I wish we had a more efficient method of dealing with catastrophes yet.

They were worried about the containtment structures starting to crack, so they had no choice but to renew the containment. Chernboyl still presents dangers. I did watch a documentary about the disaster zone and it is slowly recovering in terms of the wildlife (lots of pet cats went feral and have started breeding). It's not safe for human habitation, but it's remarkable at how well the ecology adapts to having nuclear particles in the system.

wandrider

March 18th, 2011, 5:23 pm

That's true - that's what Japanese workers risk their lives for currently, to avoid a level 7 accident. We're still at 5.Anyone know why it is not rated a 6 yet?

The Japanese are ordering huge quantities of Boric Acid from many countries around the world, so this means they are preparing for worst case scenarios.

The French Foreign Ministry say Paris will send 100 tons of boric acid to Japan to dampen radiation and help the country fight a nuclear crisis following a devastating quake.

"[France's nuclear manufacturer] Areva and Electricite de France (EDF) are flying a plane with almost 100 tons of boric acid and protective equipment, including 10,000 suits, 20,000 pairs of gloves and 3,000 masks," the foreign ministry said in a statement on Thursday.

South Korea also plans to send 56.2 tons of boric acid to Japan to help Tokyo cope with the situation.

The massive C-17 military plane arrived and Vandenberg was ready to load the critical cargo. Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant says its sending a total of 17 tons or 34,000 pounds of boric acid.

Boric acid is a key material containing boron that could be added to sand & cement mixtures to lower the dangerous nuclear reactions & temperatures. It might be applied with water directly into the water containment pools, but no one is able to get near the dangerous spent fuel pool at reactor 3.

MC2456

March 18th, 2011, 5:29 pm

I've read that a pack of iodine pills (as included in some emergency kits just a month ago) that went for $10 now are selling out at $289/pack.
In the US? Or in Japan.

The greatest thing to fear, indeed, appear to be fear itself.
Very well said. Hysteria and paranoia are the last thing people need in a crisis situation. But it looks like the Japanese are following orders from the government very well. I admire their calm in the face of such a great crisis, a "triple disaster" as it is. I admire their community spirit even more.

I don't see a lot of the main media hyping it too much...but the fringe media certainly is. Those who wish to use recent events to support their apocolyptic agendas are rolling in and flinging it while spinning in their chairs. They see it as a vehicle to build readership/viewership/profits on their conspiratorial theories. They see it as a way to make a quick buck on the fear-driven and science-lite educated...bucks that could have been used to help feed someone in a shelter, provide heat, or help give medical aide to injured.

The tragedy here is some real good could be going on, aid collected and sent, goodwill and prayers said...but the opportunities are quickly being diluted by self-serving agents who revel in doomsaying and promote disaster-junki-ism.

This board is not one that seems prone to that...thank goodness. There seems to be some genuine concern, compassion and good information going out. Unfortunately, this board seems to be in a minority across the internet right now.

Glad you all are here...like an offramp amid the million-car-pileup of the internet highway.
Well said. The Japanese need our aid, support and prayers right now, not the media writing sensationalist stories and causing fear amongst people of other nations. My mum and I had a discussion about this at lunch-we talked about how certain media overexaggerated facts and blew things out of proportion. I remember there was this newsflash claiming to BBC (I don't think it is from BBC) that the radio waves from the exploded plant would reach the Phillipines or something like that. Actually, it was a hoax. Exploiting the situation like that is horrible, but then, they've done it so many times before. They must be having a field day right now.

wandrider

March 18th, 2011, 6:53 pm

We have no way of knowing how people would react simply based on where they live. I think it would most likely vary person to person.

While it's true that Japan has faced many disasters it wouldn't be a stretch to assume their are some who are panicked, while others may not be. The media cannot show us every single person.Just to clarify, I agree with your points above. :)

However, my posts on this subject were always dealing on the 'macro scale' speaking in terms of national traits (history, etc.) and not on a 'micro scale' of the individual.

I'm categorizing on a national scale & speaking of generalization & percentages of whole populations. Of course, every individual will react in their own unique way that varies from person to person, but these individual reactions can be categorized & analyzed in the way I'm suggesting too. (Such as surveys and polling is done.)

I'm just offering my informed opinion, but I think I'm being accurate too. Hopefully. :eyebrows:

flimseycauldron

March 18th, 2011, 7:16 pm

The Disaster for the Nuclear reactors will be if there are several meltdowns and explosions of steam occur that release massive amounts of Radioactive particles into the Environment. Along with the spent fuel rods releasing their radioactive material. Only then will it be worse than Chernobyl. Cesium (forget which isotope) is the radioactive particle to worry about, as that gets into the food chain very easily.

I don't know why Chernobyl and Three Mile Island are the gold "standard" for nuclear disasters and that anything that doesn't meet or pass them somehow doesn't count as a bonafide disaster. We must remember that Japan would be suffering from a 8.9 magnitude earthquake (and it's very strong aftershocks) and a Tsunami regardless if the reactors blew or not. People are starving and freezing, without homes and medical attention. The citizens are already suffering in a way that makes any leakage or contamination from the nuclear plants that much more devastating. Serious problems with nuclear plants are few and far between so I think that any sort of reactor problems whether they be caused by human error or mother nature is indeed serious enough to qualify as a disaster in and of itself. JMHO.

gertiekeddle

March 18th, 2011, 7:31 pm

They designed the reactors for everything but a Tsunami, I believe a Japanese Nuclear expert was warning about the danger for quite sometime. Many experts all over the world warned for the potential risks, for quite every nuclear power plant in the world. Eg 20 years ago a accident plan for a potential fission in Krümel - that's one of Germany's oldest nuclear power plants, located only 30 miles from Hamburg - was made. From cooling problems, trying to cool with water from river Elbe over evacuating the 2 million city when the cloud would be gone to avoid the radiation from the ground, up to the city and a 200 miles area being restricted for a half century, the technical steps read a lot like Fukushima. Such accidents can theoretically happen everywhere and for many plants evacuation plans exists. Just as any other accidents not related to nuclear items can do too. That's the nature of accidents. The impact of nuclear accidents just is mostly bigger than by other catastrophes, lasts longer and is the same time harder to detect.

I suspect the workers at the Fukushima plant are well aware of the risks and dangers, in fact I believe one worker said he was willing to die to prevent the looming disaster. I heard this too, but I believe they were informed from first day on. They're engineers and got the best picture of the damages. They most likely knew way better than any citizen around what they were doing, how big the risk was, and how much it grew.

They were worried about the containtment structures starting to crack, so they had no choice but to renew the containment. Chernboyl still presents dangers. I did watch a documentary about the disaster zone and it is slowly recovering in terms of the wildlife (lots of pet cats went feral and have started breeding). Yup, that's what I hinted at. It's just no Russian problem only. Grit and concrete only led so far when it comes to radiation - we humans are not yet able to build storages which lead for eternity, or at least for more than a few decades.

Anyone know why it is not rated a 6 yet?I think that's because we still only assume how things exactly are like. What we assume is very likely, and partly supported by reports like a slightly higher radiation 300 miles away, much higher radiation than usual 30 miles from Fukushima, and dangerously high radiation at Fukushima itself - from such things we know that eg radiation is leaking at all, and that there must be bigger damages than one week before. But as long as the next damage isn't confirmed as fact (even if there must be something), Japanese government won't raise the level to 6 or 7.

I believe that's actually logical since nobody would take the next step before knowing what's up. It's maybe like putting three people into one room, coming back next day and seeing that one was murdered. You know that something bad happened and that there's a murderer, but you won't instantly punish both other guys as long as the details of the case are unknown. The nuclear accident levels are a formal standard, but not telling us how things really are right now. We only know how they aren't anymore.
The Japanese are ordering huge quantities of Boric Acid from many countries around the world, so this means they are preparing for worst case scenarios.That's the worst bit at such events: they should have done so days ago, but if they had done so, people had screamed 'panic' even earlier. It's insane that the government can't take all useful measures as early as possible because it made things look worse.
What Tepco and the US military do at Fukushima is disaster-management, but ordering boric acid is prevention and I think as such fully reasonable. This kind of catastrophe isn't yet here.

I remember there was this newsflash claiming to BBC (I don't think it is from BBC) that the radio waves from the exploded plant would reach the Phillipines or something like that. Actually, it was a hoax. Exploiting the situation like that is horrible, but then, they've done it so many times before.I think it's a really difficult line to differ between what is a hoax and shouldn't get reported because it creates a panic, and what is information which should be published so that people are actually warned. For reasons stated above the governments can't always take all reasonable measures instantly. That's rather our than their fault.

Such situations often only can get judged upon afterwards. Some media certainly need to check their information better. Internet is a mess in such situations: who reports last, doesn't earn money, so they post the news as soon as they come. But many people also fail in recognizing what really is written or that a news isn't yet confirmed. It's a problem on both sides I believe.
Some media surely also need to word information which actually are right more carefully. We already talked about this impression that some seem to want the next step further into apocalypse, what's simply ugly. But many also just do their job and report what's up - and this just is worrisome news these days, in the overall picture. Much of it, I think, looks like catastrophe hunting because it is a catastrophe.

That's said I don't care of I get wrong information while I sit in Western Europe. But I hope the people 0 to 500 miles around Fukushima get correct information and also - what's likely problematic due to the other damages after the earthquake - get them in time. It doesn't help when worried Europeans tell their traveling relatives to leave their save home, when evacuation time didn't yet come because the cloud is currently above the houses. There's an order of measure only the government can set, and hopefully they're able to do it right. As many pointed out already, there are many people to take care for after the earthquake, and the cold temperatures aren't helping either.

wandrider

March 18th, 2011, 9:37 pm

The Japanese Nuclear Accidents are not IAEA "Level 5" accidents if Three Mile Island is also a "Level 5" too.

Why?

Victor Gilinsky former Chief Commissioner of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission during the 3 Mile Island accident said today:

In every way this is way way beyond Three Mile Island, and there is very little [if anything] in comparison between the two accidents 'now' both rated at Level 5. At 3 Mile Island he said the emergency cooling was accidentally cut off by human error for only 2 hours, which was found-out & turned back on. It worked, and no further damage was done.

In Japan he said there are already containment failures, none of the emergency systems are working, power is out, and [dangerous] far higher radiation releases continue. None of these issues occurred at 3 Mile Island.

I agree with Victor Gilinsky, and I say these accidents are very different in severity & in the amount of failures & damage & radiation leakage. I do not think the Japanese accidents should be rated a Level 5. In my firm opinion the Japanese accidents have been a Level 6 for many days already!

It seems at least one nuclear expert agrees with my opinion: A Nuclear Power Plant Engineer said this is a Level 6 IAEA Accident already (on MSNBC today, Friday).

These two disasters are totally different in scale & severity, so these are not equally compared or rated as an IAEA Level 5, not accurately, imo.

Wab

March 19th, 2011, 2:08 am

Japan may build robots to play the violin, run marathons and preside over weddings , but it has not deployed any of the machines to help repair its crippled reactors.
I read this interesting article (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Robots-everywhere-but-not-in-nuclear-plants/articleshow/7732854.cms) in today's newspaper that mocks Japanese way of doing things. Not exactly what they require at this hour, but this article highlights how sometimes we can err in judgement to save money.

This is why remotes and robots aren't being used.

Training to be a senior reactor operator takes up to two years and involves demonstrating one’s ability to process complex, sometimes contradictory information rapidly and under intense pressure. The training regimen also grinds into us the overwhelming importance of staying put in an emergency situation, even at great risk to our own safety. There are simply too many contingencies and too many functions that require close observation for an emergency to be handled remotely.

Homer Simpson Need Not Apply (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/opinion/18Friedlander.html)

Anyone know why it is not rated a 6 yet?

As none of us here are nuclear technicians who are on the scene and privy to all the information, it's not for us to say.

The Japanese are ordering huge quantities of Boric Acid from many countries around the world, so this means they are preparing for worst case scenarios.

Emergency services always set their contigencies for worst case; it's the best way to handle disasters.

Redhart

March 19th, 2011, 9:15 am

Mundungus Fletc

March 19th, 2011, 9:43 am

In a press conference today (tonight here), Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters that some milk and spinach samples from the area surrounding the Fukushima nuclear facility has tested positive for radiation, above acceptable levels.
It shows that the Japanese government is on top of things imo - one of the worst consequences of Chernobyl was Thyroid cancer in children - caused because the Soviet government was not checking radiation levels in milk.

I was interested to see that the maximum radiation level allowed for the rescue workers (250 ms) is one tenth of that allowed for astronauts

Wab

March 19th, 2011, 10:00 am

I'd expect that the amount of radiation so far released would be negligable compared to the amounts which drifted over populated areas in the US and USSR when above ground nuclear weapons testing was all the rage.

flimseycauldron

March 19th, 2011, 1:38 pm

In a press conference today (tonight here), Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters that some milk and spinach samples from the area surrounding the Fukushima nuclear facility has tested positive for radiation, above acceptable levels.

The tainted milk was found 20 miles (30 kilometers) from the plant while the spinach came from a neighboring prefecture, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters.

While the radiation levels exceeded the limits allowed by the government, Edano said that the products “pose no immediate health risk” and that further monitoring was being conducted on other foods. If tests show further contamination, Edano said food shipments would be halted from the area.

This being said, and to keep things in proportion, the amount found was approximately 1/5th of the level one might find in a CT scan.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/japanese-government-says-milk-spinach-near-stricken-nuke-plant-have-unsafe-radiation/2011/03/18/ABWBIts_story.html

I'm all for keeping a level head but looking at this particular perspective doesn't really assuage my concerns. When you say the radiation levels found were 1/5th that of a CT scan I have to wonder what the ratio is. Is it 1/5th per 16oz glass of milk? With with consumables is that it's easy to eat or drink enough to surpass a CT scan within a day! Theoretically you could be consuming two or three CT scans within days or a week. That can't be healthy. Which is probably why the radiation levels have been deemed "above acceptable". Secondly, we have to remember that the radiation isn't just spreading through the food system. It's in the very air the people are breathing as well which contaminates them even further.

Melaszka

March 19th, 2011, 1:51 pm

I'm all for keeping a level head but looking at this particular perspective doesn't really assuage my concerns. When you say the radiation levels found were 1/5th that of a CT scan I have to wonder what the ratio is. Is it 1/5th per 16oz glass of milk? With with consumables is that it's easy to eat or drink enough to surpass a CT scan within a day! Theoretically you could be consuming two or three CT scans within days or a week. That can't be healthy. Which is probably why the radiation levels have been deemed "above acceptable". Secondly, we have to remember that the radiation isn't just spreading through the food system. It's in the very air the people are breathing as well which contaminates them even further.

I think I just read in the Guardian that if you drank a glass of the radioactive milk every day for a year it would be equivalent to one CT scan - I'll try to find a link.

ETA: here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/19/japan-radiation-levels-spinach-milk)

Specifically:

It's not like if you ate it right away you would be harmed," Edano said. "It would not be good to continue to eat it for some time."

Edano said the amount of radiation detected in the milk was the equivalent to one CT scan – the series of X-rays used for medical tests – if consumed continually for a year.

flimseycauldron

March 19th, 2011, 2:33 pm

Melaszka

March 19th, 2011, 3:57 pm

Mel, worded that way it does make more sense. Still that's on top of the normal radiation that one is exposed to plus all the extra radiation from other sources. (not just milk) It's not like all the normal radiation ust goes away...

Absolutely - I wouldn't want to be drinking it, either (well, I don't actually drink milk at all, but you know what I mean...). But it could be a lot worse and they are trying to take steps to keep it out of the food chain, which is encouraging.

wandrider

March 19th, 2011, 6:14 pm

There are at least three "saving face" nuclear accident problems the Japanese government faces, and two of these have been in direct conflict with respected nuclear power experts outside Japan for several days now.

1) The Japanese leadership are in denial, imo, when they elevated the accident to a Level 5 (Three Mile Island). I pointed out in a previous post Click Here About Level 5 (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=5711984&postcount=147) using two well respected nuclear expert opinions, and, also, that every nuclear expert interviewed I've seen so far state that none believe it to be a Level 5 accident. Every expert has said it is well beyond that point days ago. It is not a Level 5 Three Mile Island accident according to these experts. It is blatantly obvious to their rational analysis.

2) The USA government recommended days ago that the evacuation zone should be 50 miles, and this is in direct conflict with the Japanese government 12.5 mile zone. Every nuclear expert I've seen in the media outside Japan suggests the American zone is correct & safe.

3) Furthermore, there have been very high levels, very dangerous radiation levels, escaping from the some of the failed reactors or storage pools (Unit 3 & 4) for days now. This radiation is going to spread on the wind & fall on the rain/snow & particulates, and there will be pockets of dangerous levels of radiation such that people can not live there again for years or decades or more. It is not possible to clean-up some of these areas to make it safe again.

Just like coal pollution concentrates its mercury poisoning into rivers & lakes eliminating the possibility of eating fish with these high levels of mercury, so it will be for poisonous radiation that will be concentrated into the food chain by these same environmental processes.

4) Many nuclear experts believe that at least 2-4 reactors are so damaged that restoring power will make no difference & could actually cause further damage or accidents. Already there is too much radiation damage, salt water damage, explosion damage, and other heat & nuclear fuel damage that it's just too dangerous to restore power & do extensive repairs.

All 6 reactors are a clean-up operations anyway. This is a total loss for probably all 6 reactors, as none are going to provide electric power ever again.

The remaining question is whether or not the clean-up can be done safely without further major releases of dangerous levels of radiation. (Every day so far there have been dangerous levels released.) The wind currents & weather will play the biggest role in local radiation poisoning for the Japanese until they can stop these releases of dangerous radiation directly into the atmosphere.

I think it will be another 1-2 weeks before we will really know if this is getting under control or not. Some good news already is that there are no further major radiation accidents, and that is a positive sign. :angel:

Alastor

March 19th, 2011, 7:58 pm

The reports I've seen, as well as interviews with experts give the impression that the sole purpose of restoring power is to get the cooling water pumps running, not to do extensive repairs whatever that may mean. But there are serious dangers involved and nobody knows if those pumps are still in working order. I'm not an expert but I believe that the reason why they are trying is that restoring the cooling water system is the only way to eliminate the risk of further really serious emissions.

I can still understand that the Japanese authorities may want to tone it down a bit to avoid panic. In the current situation with most of the infrastructure destroyed it's probably not even possible to evacuate everyone living within 50 miles from the site.

wandrider

March 20th, 2011, 12:12 am

I'm not an expert but I believe that the reason why they are trying is that restoring the cooling water system is the only way to eliminate the risk of further really serious emissions.Unfortunately, it has the potential to do just the opposite if the temperatures and/or pressures are already too high. Pumping water into the superheated vessels or near empty pools has the potential to cause fires or skyrocket pressures & steam releases causing even higher releases of dangerous radiation.

Even burying the radiation damage under sand & cement could cause too much heat to build-up restarting fission reactions that would be uncontrolled.

Restoring cooling to areas that are not superheated yet is a very good idea, but it's not certain this will work & not do even greater damage where the radiation fuel is in a superheated state. I hope this is not a guessing game, and they can safely make the calculations based on accurate measurements. :tu:

I honestly don't understand why some remote robots have not been used to at least take temperature & radiation readings plus video/pictures of the damage inside the buildings, and, especially, of the containment pools of spent fuel?

Redhart

March 20th, 2011, 12:46 am

I have been wondering that, too. Observation, reconnaissance and important information gathering seems like a robot-made-to-order-job in this instance.

wandrider

March 20th, 2011, 4:02 am

I have been wondering that, too. Observation, reconnaissance and important information gathering seems like a robot-made-to-order-job in this instance.
I read an article that stated there are many robots in use at Nuclear Power Plants outside Japan. Some specialize in video observation & various monitoring purposes & others can go around closing & opening valves or switching things on & off or turning. It's all in the realm of reality, now.

The radiation is so bad at Units 3 & 4 that they are using unmanned water spraying. As soon as the firefighters position the vehicles & spray, the humans leave the area...

On Saturday the firefighters had set up an unmanned vehicle in front of the reactor building. The vehicle can spray seawater from a height of 22 meters directly into a pool containing spent fuel rods. A pump vehicle supplied seawater through an 800-meter hose.

After adjusting the position of the unmanned vehicle and the direction of its spray, the firefighters left.

The unmanned operation was originally planned to continue for 7 hours. But the fire department extended it by more than 6 hours after a government taskforce asked that water be sprayed for as long as possible.

Redhart

March 20th, 2011, 8:10 am

It looks like they are still having trouble with reactor three and will be releasing radioactive gas to avoid worse...

Tokyo (CNN) -- Even as workers began to see some success in their battle to cool down reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, Japanese officials said Sunday that they would have to release some radioactive gas into the air.

The country's nuclear safety agency said releasing the gas was a necessary step to reduce mounting pressure in reactor No. 3's containment vessel -- the steel and concrete shell that insulates radioactive material inside.

"In order to be safe, we need to take measures to lower the pressure of the containment vessel. Now that means that air containing radioactive substances will be emitted into the atmosphere," said Hidehiko Nishiyama of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

Workers have let out radioactive steam to release pressure inside affected reactors in previous operations.

...
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/japan.nuclear.reactors/

wandrider

March 20th, 2011, 5:22 pm

Finally, some very good news for nuclear reactor vessels 5 & 6...

This probably means 'the nuclear emergency' is now down to just 1, 2, 3, 4 units. Of course, each remaining 'crisis unit' is potentially very dangerous, but resources & manpower are at an extreme premium. This will allow them to focus on the 4 remaining more damaged units.

"Water temp at 2 reactors below boiling point.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says cooling functions were restored by Sunday evening for the No.5 and No.6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Coolant water temperatures have now fallen below 100 degrees Celsius."

It looks like they are still having trouble with reactor three and will be releasing radioactive gas to avoid worse...

For now, late Sunday in Japan, they decided to cancel the venting at reactor 3, because the pressure is high but stabilized. They may vent later but not now. It seems they are very concerned about releasing pressure and causing dangerous releases of radiation escaping too, so they will only do this when absolutely necessary.

"If the pressure doesn't decline, the officials will release gases directly from the vessel. If that happens, the level of radioactive iodine in the air will increase by 100-fold."

Tuesday 2nd Week in Japan...

IAEA:Radiation 1,600 times normal in Fukushima

Radiation 1,600 times higher than normal levels has been detected in an area about 20 kilometers from the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The International Atomic Energy Agency says its team of experts measured radiation in the air and soil at 11 locations in Fukushima Prefecture.

In the town of Namie, at a point 20 kilometers northwest from the nuclear power plant, the data showed radiation levels of 161 microsieverts per hour as of 2:55 PM on Sunday.

That's 1,600 times higher than the IAEA's normal standard of 0.1 microsieverts per hour found in nature.

gertiekeddle

March 22nd, 2011, 9:30 am

Mixed news from Fukushima, first the best: all six reactors are back to electricity net, so the last two could possibly work with electricity today again if the technique is still working. This news came via German 'Tageszeitung' a few minutes ago. That doesn't yet mean that all coolings will work again and that there's no risk left for worse damages, but it's surely some big step and actually relieving news. Coolings and other techniques could have gotten damage by salt water, the explosions or radiation mostly (radiation messed up robots and other techniques at Chernobyl as well). Still, if the workers are still willing to work at the reactors despite the radiation - I believe they will from all we've yet seen -, even a damaged machine likely could be fixed.

Still, the already spread radiation isn't to be taken to lightly. For now it seems Tepco and the government keep doing reads and also keep the people informed, though. A problem might be that the 'cloud' (usual measure: stay inside) keep getting recreated while the ground radiation (usual measure: leave the place, in close areas for approximately a few thousand years) are contradicting each other, since it takes so long to actually fix the leaks.

Mundungus Fletc

March 22nd, 2011, 1:56 pm

There's an interesting article in today's Telegraph (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100080636/japan-whatever-happened-to-the-nuclear-meltdown/) pointing out that other nuclear plants in the areas affected are sheltering homeless people in their facilities. They have heat and water because they survived the quake without any damage (unlike almost every other building in the area)

gertiekeddle

March 22nd, 2011, 2:40 pm

There's something good coming out of nuclear plants at least then - they have safe buildings. :lol:

More seriously, there are positive and helpful thoughts in the text. In finding a short focus for critiques on the text, this statement stands out for me, though:
But far and away more ridiculously, a lot of people are already saying that Fukushima with its probable zero consequences means that no new nuclear powerplants should ever be built again.
While I certainly don't belong to those who request to stop all nuclear power plants just because accidents can happen (I have better reasons for this ;)), "zero consequences" looks, I think, wrong as well, but still it's pronounced in the whole text. This is to me not putting things in proper perspective as the writer tries to attempt by own statement, but downplaying the risks of nuclear plant accidents while claiming that people on ships and the like died too.

Many people died during the earthquake/tsunami? Of course, and it is horrible. More than due to the radiation yet leaked out? Nobody will know right now, but I don't believe it will be less. Furthermore, we simply don't know what the consequences are, how ever good researches on eg Chernobyl long-term consequences are.

Surely the situation is different. In Japan no 500.000 people will have to clean up radiation, without even being properly protected. From all we know, the radiation leaked is way less than in Chernobyl and there's justified hope that it won't become more than back in 1986. I agree with the writer that the mega catastrophe didn't yet happen, and hopefully won't within the next days.
Still, radiation leaks have influence on the workers, the food and the sea - as far as the government and Tepco can by now confirm. It's imo not helpful to claim that there won't be consequences because we know that radiation sicknesses stay for decades, and have influence even on the not yet born generations. In some areas the levels of radiation are in my view too high to be ignored in such prospects.

Certainly the row of events in Japan is yet without other example. Certainly Tepco's inability to keep their nuclear power plants in casual check is too. Also this Earth can deal with some radiation. But I believe the main difference as also biggest problem on nuclear catastrophes is that they contaminate the area for quite more than a few human lifetimes, while damages on buildings and nature after other catastrophes usually can be fixed. Comparing the number of nuclear fatalities (while 7 certainly is a wee bit small) with the number of wind power fatalities doesn't work for me, because the consequences are fully different. Any catastrophe is cruel, but I believe there are differences between what we can't prevent and what we can and - checking on the long run of nuclear damages as also the high costs of this form of energy - maybe should prevent.

wandrider

March 22nd, 2011, 7:07 pm

Still, radiation leaks have influence on the workers, the food and the sea - as far as the government and Tepco can by now confirm. It's imo not helpful to claim that there won't be consequences because we know that radiation sicknesses stay for decades, and have influence even on the not yet born generations. In some areas the levels of radiation are in my view too high to be ignored in such prospects.

Umm, speaking for Hagrid :) what about all the little critters on the land & in the lakes & sea too? We don't clean-up for the critters, so the food chain for them is totally harmed by whatever the maximum contamination is. The genetic damage is also "unconstrained" with no clean-up possible.

Certainly the row of events in Japan is yet without other example. Certainly Tepco's inability to keep their nuclear power plants in casual check is too. Also this Earth can deal with some radiation. But I believe the main difference as also biggest problem on nuclear catastrophes is that they contaminate the area for quite more than a few human lifetimes, while damages on buildings and nature after other catastrophes usually can be fixed. Comparing the number of nuclear fatalities (while 7 certainly is a wee bit small) with the number of wind power fatalities doesn't work for me, because the consequences are fully different. Any catastrophe is cruel, but I believe there are differences between what we can't prevent and what we can and - checking on the long run of nuclear damages as also the high costs of this form of energy - maybe should prevent.Absolutely, agreed. :tu:

I know alternate energy gets subsidies too, but it came to light in recent reporting that many subsidies for Wind & Solar are being slashed or eliminated by Republican Congressional Legislation attempts (USA). Meanwhile, it's also being attempted to =increase= subsidies for Nuclear Power. This seems nearsighted & a bit ***backwards, imo.

I wonder how much subsidies Wind & Solar have gotten vs Nuclear Power in the last 30 years? Wind & Solar were being well supported by Jimmy Carter in the late 1970's, so a 30+ year comparison would be fair on the whole.

Let's add in the cost of estimating Radioactive Waste safe disposal and/or reprocessing, and I bet the numbers difference between Wind Solar vs Nuclear Power is absolutely huge & totally biased against Wind & Solar. No contest, imo. :(

Which only points out our long-term priorities are ***backwards? :argh: :upset: :grumble:

Wednesday Japan Edit: to add info about radioactive drinking water, not safe...

High-level radiation in Fukushima water...

High-levels of radiation have been detected in tap water at municipalities across Fukushima Prefecture, where the troubled Dai-ichi nuclear power plant is located.

Water sampled in Iitate village on Sunday contained 965 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per liter, more than 3 times the government safety limit of 300 becquerels per liter.

Also, in Tokyo, infants can not drink the water, because it's above the safe limit.

Pox Voldius

March 25th, 2011, 2:36 am

Two weeks later, aftershocks in Japan are still monopolizing the USGS list of "Latest Earthquakes Magnitude 5.0 and Greater in the World - Last 7 days (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_big.php)".

wandrider

March 25th, 2011, 10:08 am

From NHK News...

Nuke safety agency: No.3 reactor likely be damaged

Japan's nuclear safety agency says it is highly likely that the Number 3 reactor of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has been damaged, leading to the leak of high levels of radiation.

The agency was speaking to reporters about Thursday's accident in which 3 workers were exposed to radiation from water on the floor inside the turbine building of the No.3 reactor. The level of radioactivity was about 10,000 times higher than the water inside a normally operating nuclear reactor.

The agency said while the reactor appears to have partially retained its function to contain radiation leaks, there's a strong possibility that some part of the reactor is now damaged and the containment function is weakening.

Friday, March 25, 2011 12:48 +0900 (JST)
================================

The Radiation Leakage Problems are Very Serious! :eeep:

I wouldn't be within 400 kilometers of that Ground Zero Nuclear Radiation Disaster Zone. :td:

gertiekeddle

March 27th, 2011, 9:26 am

The agency said while the reactor appears to have partially retained its function to contain radiation leaks, there's a strong possibility that some part of the reactor is now damaged and the containment function is weakening.Yup. Reuters by now reports that the Japan plant operator announced radioactivity in the water at reactor No. 2 to be 10 million times usual level. The sheer number is more shocking than it sounds, though, since water is likely one of the best ways to spread radiation to a level no more dangerous. But that the officials claim right now that there's no danger at all due to this high read, is something I don't believe. From all we know about long-term damages of nature, animals, humans and even techniques after radiation accidents, some harm is already done also in the ocean. What we don't yet know and won't for decades is how strongly the catastrophe has an influence on the environment overall and how big the contaminated area actually is.

However, what worries me is actually not so much that news report higher and higher radiation levels. I think many of us for quite some time didn't believe that it's a level 5 accident only. (I also think it's a wee bit stunning how used we already got to this level 5 as casual accident, but that might the same time be only human).

What's worrying me is that by now reports claim that this situation will likely go on for some more weeks, not days only. It's still my biggest hope that none of the reactors will fully blow up - but seeing how radiation is leaking constantly for two weeks now in this area while the overall disaster situation after earthquake and tsunami still doesn't allow to prevent an adequate evacuation of the citizens is nothing I can shrug over. It's keeps being a cruel situation.

However much admiration I have for the people who still react without creating any kind of mass panic, the situation seems to be serious enough so that I actually can understand very well why relatives and friends from abroad started to ask their close ones to leave Japan right from the beginning. I actually don't think so many did this in panic either, but just decided on the simple knowledge that even if the Japanese government needed to raise the protections, they simply can't in light of the overall desaster and the many more people who need help. Don't get me wrong - the situation might, in view of the government, just really don't be as dangerous yet. I just don't think they had much opportunities to react different if it were worse and this is what makes me understand why people actually leave the area even if officials still claim cities such as Tokyo are yet safe.

flimseycauldron

March 27th, 2011, 1:35 pm

However much admiration I have for the people who still react without creating any kind of mass panic, the situation seems to be serious enough so that I actually can understand very well why relatives and friends from abroad started to ask their close ones to leave Japan right from the beginning.

You know I've never had a problem with it. IMHO, it wasn't about the media trying to drum up a panic but more just commone sense. Personal safety ought to be first and foremost in people's minds. You can do nothing without your health. And if it had turned out to be a an easily contained event there's nothing saying that people couldn't go back. I understand that many people have certain financial obligations and it's not easy to come and go at will, but at what expense do we put our health at risk?

gertiekeddle

March 27th, 2011, 8:54 pm

In this thing I get it's not so much a money but a matter of damages - rescue groups needed one week to actually reach some regions in the North. It's just difficult to evacuate people when the streets are destroyed. And where to get them when any centers are already crowded by homeless people. In no way an easy situation for the government. So I don't think they do a bad job: there are just things they can't achieve right now and as this they might need to decide to not do any measures they might have done if they weren't already in a catastrophe scenario.

To the news about million-wise contaminated water: the Japanese officials took their own message about this back shortly ago. Not yet clear how the failure news appeared in their reads, but it seems there never was a read that was that high. Phew.

Fawkesfan1

March 27th, 2011, 9:17 pm

wandrider

March 27th, 2011, 10:31 pm

Yea I heard about that really high reading today on the news and was in shock over it.
Repairs delayed. Radiation still extremely high compared to previous readings... The numbers in bold below are high & dangerous!

From NHK News...

Delay feared in restoring cooling systems

At the quake-hit Fukushima nuclear power plant, high radioactive density detected in 3 turbine buildings may further delay work to restore the cooling systems for the overheated fuel rods.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says that on Sunday it detected 100,000 times the normal density of radioactive substances in the leaked water in the Number 2 reactor's turbine building at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. The water surface had a high radiation level of more than 1,000 millisieverts per hour.

In similar tests conducted earlier, about 10,000 times the normal radioactive density had been detected in the turbine buildings of the Number-1 and -3 rectors as well.

The utility on Sunday revised an announcement made earlier in the same day that 10 million times the normal level had been detected in leaked water in the Number 2 reactor's turbine building. It said it previously made an erroneous calculation, prompting the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency to order it to review its assessment procedures.

gertiekeddle

March 28th, 2011, 10:14 am

Tokyo Electric Power Company says that on Sunday it detected 100,000 times the normal density of radioactive substances in the leaked water in the Number 2 reactor's turbine building at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. The water surface had a high radiation level of more than 1,000 millisieverts per hour.
They already took this information back yesterday (see my post above). Apprently some misinformation by the company.

Needless to say the situation still is serious, but these high levels aren't yet out. However, #2 was confirmed to have a hole in the reactor casing, what many (incl. the Japanese officials) assumed, but couldn't prove until today. This might explain why radiation is spreading so far and relatively high for quite some time now.

Pox Voldius

March 28th, 2011, 1:14 pm

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/28/uk-nuclear-japan-massachusetts-idUSLNE72R01I20110328) is reporting that trace amount of radioactive iodine from Japan have recently turned up in rainwater samples in Massachusetts.

They say the levels found are too small to be a health risk... Though, it wouldn't surprise me if this story starts another panic.

wandrider

March 28th, 2011, 6:05 pm

They already took this information back yesterday (see my post above). Apprently some misinformation by the company.The numbers I posted are confirmed and corrected after the mistaken error. See below...
NHK News...
TEPCO announced on Monday that radioactive substances 100,000 times higher than usual for water in a reactor core were detected in puddles in the No. 2 reactor's turbine building on Sunday.
Reuters News Monday...
TEPCO later said radiation above 1,000 millisieverts per hour was found in water in tunnels used for piping outside the reactor.

That is the same as the level discovered on Sunday. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency says a single dose of 1,000 millisieverts (one sievert) is enough to cause hemorrhaging.

TEPCO officials said the underground tunnels did not flow into the sea but the possibility of radioactive water seeping into the ground could not be ruled out.

Monday, 1,000 millisieverts per hour is found in more than one location... Watch here...

NHK Video News Reports Dangerous Radiation Levels Click Here (http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_h28.html)

gertiekeddle

March 28th, 2011, 6:16 pm

I made a double misread. :lol: I thought you meant the ocean water, not the cooling, sorry!

I'm not surprised about the latter, though. Leaked radiation must go somewhere.

wandrider

March 29th, 2011, 9:02 pm

Tuesday NHK News reports: Radiation levels at the surface of water in the Number 2 unit are more than 1,000 millisieverts per hour. Work at the site is currently suspended.
It seems there is now a stalemate on clean-up & cooling efforts. The more water sprayed to cool causes more radiation to spread & leak. Now, with the levels of dangerous radiation noted above spreading & contaminating the work areas it may become impossible to control the cooling with water. Stalemate!

This situation may not lead to any improvements in reducing dangerous radiation leaks & may just be delaying either a further meltdown & even worse radiation leaks, OR TEPCO or Japanese government will have to do something else to solve this stalemate!

I don't think the current efforts are working anymore, and this is like a time-bomb for an even bigger disaster in the making.

Any thoughts or ideas?

SSJ_Jup81

March 30th, 2011, 4:59 am

That's a scary thought, their not being able to get it under control. I sometimes wish I could just selfishly leave.

I wonder what the Japanese gov't will do now, though, regarding it. There has to be some way to get it under control.

gertiekeddle

March 30th, 2011, 7:18 am

I don't think the current efforts are working anymore, and this is like a time-bomb for an even bigger disaster in the making.

Any thoughts or ideas?My thought is that this is no new news. We had this situation from the beginning. I had moments for particular during the first week where it looked to me as all Tepco & Co could do is lengthen the time until the first reactor fully blows up, but not avoid it.

What I see is, however, that they do manage for weeks now to keep the reactors at least as cool or 'safe' that they don't fully explode.
So right now it worries me more that we have radiation leaking for such a long time already. And that naturally nobody really knows where the leaks are until the next high measure is already read or workers are be able to stay in the reactors long enough.

The accident can still get worse, no doubt about it and neither Tepco nor the Japanese government ever denied it - with the one exception that they don't evacuate the people accordingly, but - of course only judging from a perspective far away - this doesn't seem possible anyway in the current environment post tsunami.

So the known consequences of the nuclear catastrophe we already have to deal with come to effect. There's a weather forecast claiming it will rain, so radiation will raise once more in the whole area. Iodium, which leaks into the ocean in these very high concentration, will be gone within a week, roughly, but until then the particles are there and as the situation looks like now, they're not gone after eight days, because the leak isn't yet closed.
The in many ways yet more dangerous contaminated water in #2 is still leaking. If this gets into the environment, it won't be gone after eight days and it won't be a danger only for those beings who breath either. So they try to fix that.

All in all I think Tepco was aware of the situation and didn't lie about it. But measures to be taken are very limited and as such new more or less 'little' catastrophes occur on their way.

wandrider

March 30th, 2011, 7:24 pm

That's a scary thought, their not being able to get it under control. I sometimes wish I could just selfishly leave.Hi, how are you doing there? Is most everyone in your area calm & not worried about the nuclear accidents?

At least you are more than 50 miles away, correct?

Let us know how you are doing in your area. :tu:

Thanks, and stay safe & be well. :)

=====================

I don't think TEPCO has -any- excuse for doing this:

(There are plenty of undamaged Nuclear Power Plants in Japan to get supplies from.)

Radiation monitors not given to each worker...

NHK has learned that Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, has not provided every worker at the damaged Fukushima nuclear plant with radiation monitors, breaking government rules.

High levels of contamination have been detected at the Daiichi power complex following a series of hydrogen explosions that have scattered radioactive substances.

TEPCO says the quake destroyed many radiation monitors, so in some work groups only leaders have them, leaving others struggling to manage exposure.

The government requires companies to provide each individual worker with a radiation monitor when working under such conditions.

SSJ_Jup81

April 4th, 2011, 10:19 pm

Okay, just checking in to let you know that I'm okay. I had to move out of my apartment on March 30, which is why I haven't been around. I had an April 4 flight, but I missed my plane last night. I'll have to catch the next one out this evening, so I'm technically "stuck" in Tokyo. I had to stay overnight in Narita Airport.

I will be stateside early Wednesday morning (as opposed to early Tuesday morning). I'm going to be very busy. I had already planned to leave here April 4, then I found out that my sick uncle passed away Friday. The funeral is Thursday. I'll fly to DC, then rent a car to drive home to Richmond, VA, and then rest for maybe an hour or so from the drive, and then have to head back to the airport (in Richmond) to go straight to Florida. Instead of that one day of rest, I'll only get about an hour. Crazy situation, and who knows how long I'll be down there. My father and I are my uncle's next of kin and I was his only niece by blood.

I left Yamagata yesterday (Monday) morning. Anywho, on Saturday, we were getting south winds, which were coming from Fukushima, but nothing bad occurred. They were doing a deathtoll thing, and it's sad. If my Japanese is right, it's near 30,000.

gertiekeddle

April 4th, 2011, 10:37 pm

Glad to hear you're fine, but woah, it's no easy time for you right now. Take care!

Yesterday some reports said this nuclear cloud was supposed to reach Tokyo this day, but since reports never mentioned it today, it gladly seems to have vanished overseas again.
Most worrying on the Fukushima situation seems to be the ocean contamination these days since Tepco had to manually lead radiated water into the Pacific to get the cooling machines back to work. Three attempts to fix the holes in reactor #2 (I think, I'm getting confused with those in the meantime) unfortunately failed. As crazy as still cruel situation.

I believe you're right with the death toll of the tsunami and earthquake victims. They're currently counting over 13000 dead people and still over 16000 which are missed.

wandrider

April 12th, 2011, 4:56 pm

It seems there is now a stalemate on clean-up & cooling efforts. The more water sprayed to cool causes more radiation to spread & leak. Now, with the levels of dangerous radiation noted above spreading & contaminating the work areas it may become impossible to control the cooling with water. Stalemate!

This situation may not lead to any improvements in reducing dangerous radiation leaks & may just be delaying either a further meltdown & even worse radiation leaks, OR TEPCO or Japanese government will have to do something else to solve this stalemate!

I don't think the current efforts are working anymore, and this is like a time-bomb for an even bigger disaster in the making.

Any thoughts or ideas?
Japan's nuclear safety agency has raised the crisis level at the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to 7, from the current 5.

The agency told reporters on Tuesday that large volumes of radioactive substances that could affect human health and the environment are being released in a wide area.

Level 7 is the highest rank on an international standard and equivalent to the severity recorded after the Chernobyl disaster in 1986.

But the agency said the volume of radiation from Fukushima is one-tenth that at Chernobyl.

Moriath

April 12th, 2011, 7:30 pm

This step has been widely criticised by various experts as an overreaction. It is by no means clear whether it deserves the 7 rating.

gertiekeddle

April 12th, 2011, 10:55 pm

Probably that 'non-controll' part: while it's still a different matter than Chernobyl what we have as only other 7 rated accident yet, it still fits the description in being not controllable. Some international nuclear organisations (not: anti-nuclear organisations) actually asked for the 7-rating for weeks, but Japan only added it today. The other opinion is to wait until the major accident which yet didn't happen, does happen. I believe at this point it's not related to amounts of radiation which leaked.

However, by now Japan officials have been very transparent in their actions and very eager to avoid any panic I think. I don't quite see why this should have changed in the fifth week radiation is leaking when there was no reason to raise the level.

Mundungus Fletc

April 13th, 2011, 6:28 am

I found an excellent Blog (http://blog.rdtn.org/) which says what is actually going on. It has a very interesting section on the difficulties of translating from Japanese

gertiekeddle

April 13th, 2011, 9:37 am

That's indeed a good blog - although I believe many (serious) Western news actually come to the exact same conclusions, but don't follow the CNN-lead of 'posting first, trying to understand later. "What has actually happened so far is of course extremely serious, and something more serious could happen from now... [here's the bit where the author asks for Japanese knowledge before publishing news of Tepco]" is quite the main message I see in my news media too. On one of our main TV news channels we also have some news special since first week which keeps explaining the difficulties of transfering the Japanese language in Fukushima news.

I've to admit I had to smile about the information ways, because in the information given about the accident daily scheme of events and background information given about what radiation actually is, this blog imo doesn't even differ from biased sources like Greenpeace. What's on the other hand I think a sign of how good the work of these lobby organisations currently is.

(Mind you, I don't think they will stay that calm, there will be a feast of nuclear blaming once the radiation leaks are closed and other tsunami and earthquake damages got first air - but since I cross-read different sources since the radiation began to leak, I got the impression that for particular Greenpeace among the anti-atom organisations keeps informing reasonably; it's of course another issue how one judges on their campaigns against nuclear power in Europe while Fukushima catastrophe still is running).