Romantic moments & that scene in Deathly Hallows v.2

Version 1 can be found here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=126594&page=76)

This thread is to discuss the romantic scenes in DHp1+p2, but moreover I suspect you will all be debating the scene between Harry & Hermione... you know the one.

Let's remember to be nice and civil. The books have established the end game for relationships, so this is about the movies introducing their own "what if" moments, pure speculation.

We will monitor this thread closely and issue warnings to people who start arguments and don't quit when told to by Mods.

I think the moment in the movie is something that could potentially happen between friends of the opposite sex. Sometimes friends address it, and sometimes they ignore it. I thought the moment was a bit surprising, but well-written and acted, especially Emma's peformance. It was also the first time I saw Daniel in more of a "he's a grown man" point of view. Definitely a scene that will stay in my memory.

What do you think the most romantic scene in DH1 and 2 is?

(Defining "romantic" as displaying or expressing love or strong affection)

I still come back to the wedding and the piano scene from DH1. The way Ron looks at her, to me, is perfect.

What do you think the most romantic scene in DH1 and 2 is?

(Defining "romantic" as displaying or expressing love or strong affection)

I still come back to the wedding and the piano scene from DH1. The way Ron looks at her, to me, is perfect.

Hmm...

I don't really remember much romantic content to either film, to be honest. I thought HBP had a lot more of that stuff. Hermione of course had the great stricken expression in the Three Broomsticks (after Ron makes the comment about the butterbeer head still on her upper lip). And her sidelong glance--just a split second!--after she thinks she's said too much ("I've always found him interesting") is exquisitely done. I mean to say, it's so ingrained in her to tell the truth, to argue the truth, and now she's almost undone by it. (Saved by Ron rousing himself slightly!)

What else? Oh--I know most people thought it was hogwash, but I liked the shoelace scene. Yes, it's awkward, but in my opinion, it fits there. These two people are going to be awkward; they're inexperienced, and they don't know how to communicate it, so they deflect. Ergo, shoelace. I thought it was cute.

But DH1/2? There were a couple of moments, but they were more action moments with an overtone of romance than anything else. If they'd kept in the scene with Harry walking down with the rest of the students after coming into the Room of Requirement, that would've been something. But I understand why they ditched it (to make Harry's sudden appearance at Snape's assembly all the more startling).

In the Pensieve, there's young Snape's longing glance at Lily as she walks over to the Gryffindor table. Haunting enough that some people have put it into their siggies. And oh yes, Rickman's delivery of "No one can know," with that little lurch and bow of the head just before, as if he's having trouble getting the line out--that's really well done.

As long as I'm talking about this film, I might as well mention a postscript (or, I guess, it's a prescript) on the scene in question. When Ron says, "I saw you two the other night," Hermione doesn't say, "Huh?!" or "What are you talking about?" or anything like that. She says, "That...that was nothing." Which convinces me that for the purposes of the film, for Hermione at least, it wasn't nothing. And the dance confirms that, in my opinion. Of course, it's wholly absent from the book, but it was an interesting departure by the filmmakers.

What do you think the most romantic scene in DH1 and 2 is?

(Defining "romantic" as displaying or expressing love or strong affection)

I still come back to the wedding and the piano scene from DH1. The way Ron looks at her, to me, is perfect.

I thought they did the "looks" between Ron and Hermione perfectly in parts 1 and 2, it was so sweet :) and the way Ron was always looking out for her and protecting her too.

One of my favourite romantic moments is the Harry/Ginny kiss in part 2. I'm so glad they gave Harry and Ginny another kiss and I actually think they did a really good job with it and re-watching it on the DVD has made me appreciate that scene more. It was just perfect in the situation the two characters were in, knowing they might not see each other again :)

I've never understood why some fans had such a problem with the scene between Dan and Emma or why it had to be so controversial in the first place. Honestly, what is the big deal? Even if the filmmakers were trying to promote Harry/Hermione I still wouldn't see a problem. They play with the possibility something that even Rowling accepted that there was. That's what I think the movie does. They did make H/G and R/Hr canon so what is the problem? I thought it was nice to see Harry showing some empathy towards Hermione instead of ignoring her and leaving her to cry herself to sleep as he does in the books. It didn't make me raise my eyebrows (of course I'm not much into shipping so that's probably a factor but still).

I've never understood why some fans had such a problem with the scene between Dan and Emma or why it had to be so controversial in the first place. Honestly, what is the big deal? Even if the filmmakers were trying to promote Harry/Hermione I still wouldn't see a problem. They play with the possibility something that even Rowling accepted that there was. That's what I think the movie does. They did make H/G and R/Hr canon so what is the problem? I thought it was nice to see Harry showing some empathy towards Hermione instead of ignoring her and leaving her to cry herself to sleep as he does in the books. It didn't make me raise my eyebrows (of course I'm not much into shipping so that's probably a factor but still).

I feel the same way. Personally I didn't find anything romantic about the dance. I saw 2 close friends finding a very momentary escape from their problems and arguably miserable circumstances, and nothing more. Although I had the benefit of seeing the movies as a book reader, every single person I know who did not read the HP books never saw Hermione attracted romantically to anyone but Ron in the movie versions.

I feel the same way. Personally I didn't find anything romantic about the dance. I saw 2 close friends finding a very momentary escape from their problems and arguably miserable circumstances, and nothing more. Although I had the benefit of seeing the movies as a book reader, every single person I know who did not read the HP books never saw Hermione attracted romantically to anyone but Ron in the movie versions.

As one who hates that scene with a vengance, the biggest issue I have is the look between Harry and Hermione at the end (the one where the actors were directed to make viewers wonder if they would kiss). It was unnecessary, frivolous and, to me, spoiled Harry's character and the moment Hermione was having. It made me hate Harry for even appearing to want to take his best friend's girl and trivialized Hermione's feelings for Ron in showing that she might at all even consider having a relationship with Harry.

To me, that scene could have worked if they had danced, been silly, tried to lighten the mood and then at the end when they sort of start slow dancing, have Hermione become overcome with emotion (presumably at missing Ron) and just walk away without sharing that "longing look" with Harry. OR at the end when they start slow dancing have Harry say something about Ron coming back or not coming back or how he misses him too and generally spoil the moment with regards to the elephant in the room (the elephant being Ron's absence) and Hermione becoming overcome with emotion and walking off. THEN I wouldn't have an issue with it.

I also would say that I never got the impression from canon that JKR was hinting that Harry and Hermione might have gotten together or was trying to put them together. I always had the impression that Hermione was in Ron's camp now and forever and Harry would never do anything to get between them even if Ron never came back in DH.

As one who hates that scene with a vengance, the biggest issue I have is the look between Harry and Hermione at the end (the one where the actors were directed to make viewers wonder if they would kiss).
Exactly. That "will-they-or-won't-they" look at the end of their slow dance was done with absolutely no regard for canon characterization, IMO (as was most of the film franchise). There shouldn't be any "will-they-or-won't-they". Harry and Hermione were never attracted to each other, not for a single moment. From the very beginning, it was a brother-sister relationship and it never for a moment deviated from that.

I think the biggest thing this scene did was discredit Harry's future statement to Ron about how he loves Hermione like a sister. Funny how the films actually sort of validated Ron's insecurity, instead of presenting it as unfounded (which it was in the books).

It made me hate Harry for even appearing to want to take his best friend's girl and trivialized Hermione's feelings for Ron in showing that she might at all even consider having a relationship with Harry.
:agree: And it didn't just deviate from canon, it did a complete 180. It was emphasized pretty strongly in DH, I think, that Ron's absence drove Harry and Hermione apart. That scene showed them considering deepening the relationship with each other.

Exactly. That "will-they-or-won't-they" look at the end of their slow dance was done with absolutely no regard for canon characterization, IMO (as was most of the film franchise). There shouldn't be any "will-they-or-won't-they". Harry and Hermione were never attracted to each other, not for a single moment. From the very beginning, it was a brother-sister relationship and it never for a moment deviated from that.

Yes but the movies are allowed to change or emphasize certain things which weren't in canon, I think. They played with the possibility of H/Hr not just in that scene but in others as well. They even made Hermione a more important character than Ron and I suppose one thing just led to another. The hero usually gets together with the beautiful sidekick so the movies used H/Hr as a red herring. It was like you said a "will they or won't they" thing. No, according to popular interpretations of canon Harry is not attracted to Hermione nor is Hermione attracted to him. But frankly, the romances in HP are so underdeveloped that I don't see any sacred cow being messsed with here. I would have had a bigger problem with, say, the movies promoting Snape/Narcissa as a huge point of Snape's character is that he loved Lily. Neither H/G nor R/Hr are important when it comes to either the actual plot or characterization so I personally don't see the issue with minor "ship" alterations in the movies. I understand that it might not be everyone's cup of tea (I have my own problems with the movies) but I don't see why it should provoke more rage from the fandom than other deviations from canon.

Neither H/G nor R/Hr are important when it comes to either the actual plot or characterization so I personally don't see the issue with minor "ship" alterations in the movies.

Major disagree.

Ron was hugely insecure and part of that insecurity came from having Famous Harry Potter as a best friend and feeling "not good enough" for the girl he loves. Combine these and you get Ron being suspicious of Harry and Hermione's relationship, ideas which would have been brewing in his horcrux-laden mind and without that horcrux and thoughts such as these roaming through his head Ron never would have left.

Hermione is so upset by his leaving that neither she nor Harry say his name for weeks on end, referring, instead, to "Ginny's aunt" and thereby not giving Ron a way back to them until the right moment in the plot, weeks later when the pain of his abandonment has faded and they finally start saying his name again he can come back to them, but only when it's important for the plot that he does so; no Ron saving the day means Harry drowns in that lake... :shrug:

Harry says that he thinks Ron should be the one to destroy the locket horcrux and they open it and it begins spewing insults and degrading things at Ron but it isn't until Horcrux Hermione kisses Horcrux Harry that Ron gets up the passion he needs to destroy the locket.

(Consequently, if Ron hadn't have left in the first place and been kept away for extended periods of time by Harry and Hermione refusing to say his name and give him a way back we wouldn't know about Potterwatch, we wouldn't have learned about the snatchers, Ron might not have had the idea to send the prisoners in the Malfoy's basement to Shell Cottage where he, himself, hid out during that time, the trio wouldn't have had a safe place to plan their heist on Gringotts, the whole Gringotts fiasco never would have taken place because Griphook might have died of his injuries or been sent to a reputable institution for treatment and rehabilitation...)

The R/Hr relationship might not have been a major factor in the books up until DH but without that groundwork being laid for the reader we would not have bought into these moments where that relationship does play a pivotal role in books.

Major disagree.

Ron was hugely insecure and part of that insecurity came from having Famous Harry Potter as a best friend and feeling "not good enough" for the girl he loves. Combine these and you get Ron being suspicious of Harry and Hermione's relationship, ideas which would have been brewing in his horcrux-laden mind and without that horcrux and thoughts such as these roaming through his head Ron never would have left.
Just wanted to point out that Ron says in the books that the thoughts about Harry & Hermione liking each other were already inside his head, and the horcrux just made them worse. But they were definitely there. This is why Ron misinterpreted the relationship between Harry & Hermione -- it was filtered through his own insecurities that it could be true. Also, Ron's insecurities stem from his need to live up to his brothers' accomplishments. Having a famous best friend is another factor, but Harry is not the root cause of Ron's insecurities; we see Ron express them in the first book.

There's also the factor of the actors themselves, who've read the books. No matter what the director intended, or thought they caught on film (they were looking for it, kind of like Ron), it doesn't seem to me that any romantic intent comes across at all. The look from Harry at the end of the dance isn't a longing in a romantic sense -- it's Harry wishing he could do something to help Hermione out of her misery, but he realizes it's something he can fix.

Just wanted to point out that Ron says in the books that the thoughts about Harry & Hermione liking each other were already inside his head, and the horcrux just made them worse.

Dang! I had that written into my post but I must have deleted it... This is what I meant in bringing up Ron's insecurities, that the horcrux made them worse rather than putting them in his head.

Also, Ron's insecurities stem from his need to live up to his brothers' accomplishments. Having a famous best friend is another factor, but Harry is not the root cause of Ron's insecurities; we see Ron express them in the first book.

Yes, Ron's insecurities have roots in other factors but my purpose in bringing up the point here is to say that his feelings toward Hermione factored into those insecurities in that he felt so insecure in himself that he thought he wasn't worthy of Hermione or that she wouldn't choose him.

There's also the factor of the actors themselves, who've read the books. No matter what the director intended, or thought they caught on film (they were looking for it, kind of like Ron), it doesn't seem to me that any romantic intent comes across at all. The look from Harry at the end of the dance isn't a longing in a romantic sense -- it's Harry wishing he could do something to help Hermione out of her misery, but he realizes it's something he can fix.

To me the look was meant in a romantic way, a questioning way, like "are we going to do this?" and the reason, for me, that it doesn't come across successfully and part of the reason I don't like the scene is that the actors didn't have a lot of chemistry in that moment, they felt awkward together (and they have since GOF for me) and the scene didn't feel genuine in any way.

I've never understood why some fans had such a problem with the scene between Dan and Emma or why it had to be so controversial in the first place. Honestly, what is the big deal? Even if the filmmakers were trying to promote Harry/Hermione I still wouldn't see a problem. They play with the possibility something that even Rowling accepted that there was. That's what I think the movie does. They did make H/G and R/Hr canon so what is the problem? I thought it was nice to see Harry showing some empathy towards Hermione instead of ignoring her and leaving her to cry herself to sleep as he does in the books. It didn't make me raise my eyebrows (of course I'm not much into shipping so that's probably a factor but still).


I very much agree with and appreciate your post, Sereena. I also think the film makers just couldn't not explore the idea to some degree. And why not. With all the threads that question the realism of the sexuality in the series, and then just lose it over this.

I very much agree with and appreciate your post, Sereena. I also think the film makers just couldn't not explore the idea to some degree. And why not. With all the threads that question the realism of the sexuality in the series, and then just lose it over this.

Why not?
Maybe because the film makers totally lost the plot on the CANON relationship that was Harry/Ginny.:sad:
How dare they waste valuable film time on such a pathetic and out of character scene that was completely the opposite of what happened in the book!:grumble:
I will NEVER forgive them for what they did to my favourite couple and how all their scenes were either dropped or mutilated, while their "golden couple" (H/Hr, so excuse me while I throw up), get stupid uncanon scenes like this!:sad:

The scene doesn't really bother me. To me the movies are just interpretations of the books, JKR has approved them and in the future remakes will be made with different interpretations. Naturally everyone has a right to disagree with the interpretation of the director/writers.

For those loving Ron/Hermione the books are probably more valuable. I don't think there is any real need to abuse those responsible for the movies in very direct terms.

Getting away from DH and dancing, I'm probably the only person who loved Harry and Ginny's kiss in HBP. Harry sort of tiptoed around his feelings but Ginny went straight ahead. If it hadn't been for the attack on the Burrow I think the kiss might have been after the shoelace being tied. It's easy to forget how first kisses are so hard to get right, the place, the time and does the other person feel the same. So yes, I loved the HBP kiss.

[staff edit]

Originally posted by Hes
I don't think there is any real need to abuse those responsible for the movies in very direct terms.


From the moment I read HBP, I imagined that passionate, "Several sunlit days" kiss on the screen. When it didn't eventuate I was mad and disappointed!
With this in mind, I think I have every right to vent my frustration at the movie-makers who ruined my most favourite moment in the whole series!:sad:

The scene doesn't really bother me. To me the movies are just interpretations of the books, JKR has approved them and in the future remakes will be made with different interpretations.

It'll be fifty years before anyone even considers the idea of remaking the movies and even then I think they'd do a condensed version of them - seen books in three or four movies; the film makers of this series were massively lucky when they got the three principals to stick around for all eight movies, not to mention the teachers, with the exception of Dumbledore, the minor characters, etc. Continuity like this in future films would be almost inconceivable, unless the films are remade after cloning has been perfected or once anti-aging treatments have become so effective they could turn a 30-year-old into a 15 year old for acting purposes. Or, I suppose, when CGI is so good all movies will be 100% CGI and actors will only supply the voices.

Naturally everyone has a right to disagree with the interpretation of the director/writers.

For those loving Ron/Hermione the books are probably more valuable. I don't think there is any real need to abuse those responsible for the movies in very direct terms.

Abuse those responsible, no. Critique the choices that they made, absolutely! In my comments, I don't mean to come across as livid with the writers, directors, actors, etc. but I do hold them responsible for the choices they made in these movies that I don't like or agree with and will give them all the credit they deserve for the good choices they made.

I feel like with the movies we can approach critiquing content in two ways: 1) was what they gave us canon? 2) if it wasn't canon, did it serve the story or plot in a more cinematically successful way than strict canon interpretation could have?

With the dance scene, since it wasn't canon it can only be critiqued according to the second method:

Was the dance scene cinematically appropriate? Yes; it was attempting to convey emotion through action and without the cheesy intrusiveness of a voice over of either character's thoughts.

Did it serve the story or plot? To me, not really. I felt like it was injected into the film for the sole purpose of giving us that "will they or won't they?" moment. For me, the dance scene was gratuitous and the ideas of that scene (conveying Hermione's heart ache, Harry's lack of motivation and their growing distance) would have been more successful in a scene that simultaneously kept the plot moving forward. I feel like those moments could have been woven into other scenes or a montage of scenes or something and been more successful.

Would a more strict adherence to canon to convey the necessary emotions of that moment have been more successful? I don't think so. I do think simply filming what happened in the book in this moment would have been incredibly boring; fiction and films are two different media and the story has to be changed in some ways in order to say the same thing on page and on screen. While I don't mind that things in the movies deviated from canon what I do mind is when the intent or spirit of the source materials is changed or blatantly disregarded so that the film can pander to a specific audience (H/Hr shippers).

The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the book/film adaptation of The General's Daughter by Nelson DeMille; a lot was changed from the book in order to make the story into a successful movie but the movie was only successful because they stayed true to the spirit and intent of the author's book. Characterizations stayed the same in both mediums, motivations stayed the same, the the basics stages of the plot stayed the same; what changed were either details or plot points that could be lost in order to streamline a 500-page book into a 120-minute long movie. The HP series book to movie adaptation changed whole characterizations which, by extention, changed character motivations and important plot points were left out in early movies so they had to be jerry-rigged into later ones and therefore never felt quite right. Part of the issue with the movies is that their popularity grew to such a huge ferver that movie makers couldn't wait to get their money-hungry hands in the HP cookie jar and they began filming the series before they knew the end of it and, consequently, screwed things up because of that. So what you get are movies that tell the same story as the books but with characters who pale in comparison to their book-selves in every way.

The dance scene in the movies didn't fit to me, neither in the context of the book-story with book-characters or in the film-story with film-characters. It stopped the forward movement of the plot so we could take time out and watch an interaction we know isn't going to go anywhere, it felt like filler material and if that scene were completely taken out of the theatrical release I am 90% sure absolutely no one would have missed it.

First off GoddessClio let me just say that I agree with what you said about Ron's insecurity and how the dance might have conveyed the message that his insecurities might not have been completely unfounded. However, I think the movies did do justice to Ron's character as much as they could have. His argument with Harry in Gof is brought up in the movie as well. He does destroy the Horcrux in DH and the Horcrux does show him Harry and Hermione together. So I would say his insecurities were dealt with. I understand why someone would want that to have been done in a better way but let's not forget that the movies basically slaughtered all characters. Snape gets some back story, Dumbledore not so much, Voldemort does since it's a such a huge part of HBP that they couldn't leave it but otherwise I'm sure they would have. Neville and Luna get some development but much less than in the books. We don't find out anything about Molly's fears IIRC and I will not even get in to what they did to Bellatrix and Narcissa (oh and Sirius calling Harry James and all that awkwardness as well). When considering all this I think the dance scene is merely a drop in the ocean. The movies did ruin a lot, not just the ships but characterization, plot points as well as offered half baked explanations to plot points and so on. It's unavoidable that things like this would happen so I'm not blaming the filmmakers. Books lose a great deal when turned into movies.


With the dance scene, since it wasn't canon it can only be critiqued according to the second method:
While I don't mind that things in the movies deviated from canon what I do mind is when the intent or spirit of the source materials is changed or blatantly disregarded so that the film can pander to a specific audience (H/Hr shippers).


I don't think the film makers were trying to please any sort of shippers but I think this argument does point towards why people hate that scene so much. I think it's simply because some shippers were glad to have "won" the shipping wars when DH came out and dislike the fact that their "rivals" are being offered support and flirted with by the WB crew. I'm not saying this is the case for you or for everyone but I think it is a factor. For some reason shipping Harry has always been controversial and this scene supports a ship many fans dislike and thought would sink after the publication of DH. I'm not saying this is an invalid reason to dislike the scene or that this is how everyone feels but I do think the controversy surrounding the scene is somehow related to this. Just my personal theory. :scared:

I don't think the film makers were trying to please any sort of shippers but I think this argument does point towards why people hate that scene so much. I think it's simply because some shippers were glad to have "won" the shipping wars when DH came out and dislike the fact that their "rivals" are being offered support and flirted with by the WB crew. I'm not saying this is the case for you or for everyone but I think it is a factor. For some reason shipping Harry has always been controversial and this scene supports a ship many fans dislike and thought would sink after the publication of DH. I'm not saying this is an invalid reason to dislike the scene or that this is how everyone feels but I do think the controversy surrounding the scene is somehow related to this. Just my personal theory. :scared:

As far as the Harry Potter books go, I couldn't care less if Harry had ended up with Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Parvati or any of the other female characters so my objections to the dance scene aren't that it's promoting a non-canon relationship because I don't like that ship, it's that it wasn't canon in the first place. OR, in a different vein, if they were going to go there in the films I felt like they really half-assed it. Either go whole hog or walk away from the concept. I also object to the characterization changes of Book Harry to Film Harry thoughout the series to lead us to a point where him kissing Hermione in this scene in the film seems like a possibility whereas in the books it never ever would have been within the realm of possibilities.

Why not?
Maybe because the film makers totally lost the plot on the CANON relationship that was Harry/Ginny.:sad:
How dare they waste valuable film time on such a pathetic and out of character scene that was completely the opposite of what happened in the book!:grumble:
I will NEVER forgive them for what they did to my favourite couple and how all their scenes were either dropped or mutilated, while their "golden couple" (H/Hr, so excuse me while I throw up), get stupid uncanon scenes like this!:sad:

Oh. I just realized this about DH2. Sorry. But what scene??? What scene is "That scene"?

Oh. I just realized this about DH2. Sorry. But what scene??? What scene is "That scene"?

Harry and Hermione dancing after Ron left.

I don't care. It doesn't change the fact that Ron and Hermione were the only ones that danced together in the book. Harry and Hermione were miserable the whole time without Ron. They sure as hell weren't dancing.

I liked the relationship Harry and Hermione had in the books, but in the movies it was so forced. How desperate was Kloves to get what JK wouldn't allow to happen in the books?

I don't care. It doesn't change the fact that Ron and Hermione were the only ones that danced together in the book. Harry and Hermione were miserable the whole time without Ron. They sure as hell weren't dancing.

I liked the relationship Harry and Hermione had in the books, but in the movies it was so forced. How desperate was Kloves to get what JK wouldn't allow to happen in the books?

I find his eventual switch from RW/HG to HP/HG very strange since he was foreshadowing Ron/Hermione from the beginning and receiving an appreciative nod from JKR in a joint interview on one of the early DVDs.:hmm:

I don't care. It doesn't change the fact that Ron and Hermione were the only ones that danced together in the book. Harry and Hermione were miserable the whole time without Ron. They sure as hell weren't dancing.

I liked the relationship Harry and Hermione had in the books, but in the movies it was so forced. How desperate was Kloves to get what JK wouldn't allow to happen in the books?

Only if you "see" it as a romantic thing. Pesonally, I don't think it's romantic at all, it just underlines the degree of depression they're both experiencing. They can only escape for a couple minutes before reality sets back in.

I also have to disagree with your opinion that the Harry/Hermione relationship (not talking romantic, here, as I don't think there is anything) is "forced" in the films. I think it's very similar to the books in tone.

Harry and Hermione dancing after Ron left.

So, this is a new version of the old thread? I thought it was about DH2 which completely puzzled me. Yeah, DH1, dancing scene. I LOVED it! One of the most inspired and tension ridden moments in the film. Perhaps because we didn't expect it at all, but knew it could have happened like that.

I also have to disagree with your opinion that the Harry/Hermione relationship (not talking romantic, here, as I don't think there is anything) is "forced" in the films. I think it's very similar to the books in tone.

No, it was definitely forced. All the times they had a moment and Ron is just put in the background saying nothing.

Like the end of HBP, when they should have all talked about leaving to go find the horcruxes, but instead Harry and Hermione are just talking and Ron just sits there like "meh".

Or when Harry told them he was going to the forest in DH2, and Hermione said she'd go with him, and Ron just said nothing again. It should have been a trio moment, but they made it a Harry Hermione moment instead.

Even the last shot of the movie fades out on Harry and Hermione at the train station while their spouses get cropped out. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if they'd have given Hermione Ginny's line "he'll be alright" to say to Harry at the end.

It was forced in the movies, due to favoritism.

No, it was definitely forced. All the times they had a moment and Ron is just put in the background saying nothing.

Like the end of HBP, when they should have all talked about leaving to go find the horcruxes, but instead Harry and Hermione are just talking and Ron just sits there like "meh".
I think that was an insignificant scene; merely an occasion for Hermione to tell Harry that Ron was really OK with Harry being with Ginny. No other room for it in the movie otherwise, since they didn't do the scene from book after the quidditch win.

Or when Harry told them he was going to the forest in DH2, and Hermione said she'd go with him, and Ron just said nothing again. It should have been a trio moment, but they made it a Harry Hermione moment instead.
Seriously, though; Harry was about to leave & let Voldemort AK him. This is NOT a romantic moment. It was a trio moment -- Hermione got emotional, Harry struggled to repress his feelings, & Harry & Ron exchanged an unspoken understanding of what had to be done. How is there anything wrong with that?

Even the last shot of the movie fades out on Harry and Hermione at the train station while their spouses get cropped out. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if they'd have given Hermione Ginny's line "he'll be alright" to say to Harry at the end.
I know a lot of fans think Kloves favored Hermione in some way; however, there are just as many (maybe more) times when other characters were stripped of their lines -- Sirius gets some of Dumbledore's best lines in POA, for example, Ron gets Harry's lines occasionally, and the list goes on. It's just what happens when books get reworked as scripts. Happens nearly every time unless they make several hour movies (which is not going to happen most of the time).

As far as Rupert getting somewhat "cropped out", I heard him in interview saying that Ron hadn't aged very well. For all we know, Rupert asked the camera to move off of him...he does look a but like a tubby middle aged guy there...it might have freaked him out.

It's not about whether they were romantic scenes. It's the fact that they were always given centre stage, and Ron was shafted. And it was simply because the film makers favored the actors. Instead of making the series about 3 friends like JK wrote it, they made it about the boy who lived, the brightest witch of her age, and the stupid ginger who followed them around.

At least if I'd never read the books that's how I would see it. Thankfully, I did read the books, so I know what the real trio is like. Partners, friends, heroes forever. Not the Hollywood cliche that Kloves wrote them to be.

Only if you "see" it as a romantic thing. Pesonally, I don't think it's romantic at all, it just underlines the degree of depression they're both experiencing. They can only escape for a couple minutes before reality sets back in.
Harry professed to love Hermione in a completely brotherly way - in fact, that is the beauty of Harry and Hermione's canon relationship; its untarnished by the predictable male lead-female lead romance - and, IMO, there wasn't anything sibling-like in that scene.

As far as Rupert getting somewhat "cropped out", I heard him in interview saying that Ron hadn't aged very well.
I should think if anyone didn't age well in the HP movies, it would be Dan!

It's not about whether they were romantic scenes. It's the fact that they were always given centre stage, and Ron was shafted. And it was simply because the film makers favored the actors. Instead of making the series about 3 friends like JK wrote it, they made it about the boy who lived, the brightest witch of her age, and the stupid ginger who followed them around.
I agree completely. Ron was definitely sidelined from PoA onwards and it wasn't because Rupert had started to look bad. It was because Emma was becoming something of a "hottie" and was therefore gaining popularity. IMO, Kloves just couldn't let the pretty lead girl go without at least a hint of romance with the hero. Problem was, he obviously hadn't read the books or, if he had, he obviously hadn't understood what "I love her like a sister" meant.

How much does being male or female yourself affect your thoughts on the "scene" or others, like the look between Harry and Ron when Harry goes to the forest. What do guys think of how Ron is treated in the movie compared to the book?

Imagine replacing Harry and Hermione with Ron and Ginny in that scene. Still not weird? :whistle:


I should think if anyone didn't age well in the HP movies, it would be Dan!


I agree completely. Ron was definitely sidelined from PoA onwards and it wasn't because Rupert had started to look bad. It was because Emma was becoming something of a "hottie" and was therefore gaining popularity. IMO, Kloves just couldn't let the pretty lead girl go without at least a hint of romance with the hero. Problem was, he obviously hadn't read the books or, if he had, he obviously hadn't understood what "I love her like a sister" meant.



Who says Rupert "started to look bad?" What an odd thing to say.

I should think if anyone didn't age well in the HP movies, it would be Dan!


Except for the fact that Rupert is the only one who brought it up and expressed that his character didn't age very well.

The point is, the movies never live up to the books in any way. The best they do is tell the main story line and keep the general spirit of it. The scripts move lines around from character to character, not always according to the books. And fans who are very partial to some characters will often be unhappy with the way the movies portrayed them.

I was answering a post that thought a couple of scenes were "Harry/Hermione" moments, and I disagreed for the reasons I noted.

Seriously, though; Harry was about to leave & let Voldemort AK him. This is NOT a romantic moment. It was a trio moment -- Hermione got emotional, Harry struggled to repress his feelings, & Harry & Ron exchanged an unspoken understanding of what had to be done. How is there anything wrong with that?

I agree with the other responses to this point above. It wasn't that Kloves turned every moment between Harry and Hermione into a romantic one, it's the fact that he simply left Ron out. As a consequence, it becomes more and more believable as the movies go on that Hermione would chose Harry over Ron, both in friendship and romantically, because Ron becomes very underdeveloped as a character, he never becomes the strong and loyal but insecure best friend, he becomes the insecure third wheel who acts as comic relief.

I know a lot of fans think Kloves favored Hermione in some way; however, there are just as many (maybe more) times when other characters were stripped of their lines -- Sirius gets some of Dumbledore's best lines in POA, for example, Ron gets Harry's lines occasionally, and the list goes on. It's just what happens when books get reworked as scripts. Happens nearly every time unless they make several hour movies (which is not going to happen most of the time).

I agree that it's a bit unreasonable to expect that every line spoken in the books by Ron would be given to Ron in the films. I have no problem with script shuffling in this manner. What I have a problem with is the lack of overall development of Ron as a character which leads him to be sidelined and to feel like the third wheel to Harry and Hermione. Ron was never the third wheel, he was a vital part of the trio.

As far as Rupert getting somewhat "cropped out", I heard him in interview saying that Ron hadn't aged very well. For all we know, Rupert asked the camera to move off of him...he does look a but like a tubby middle aged guy there...it might have freaked him out.

Except for the fact that Rupert is the only one who brought it up and expressed that his character didn't age very well.

Let's clear something up right now: None of the trio were aged well in the epilogue! "17 years later" means that the trio would be 34/35; Harry looked like he was about 50 years old, Hermione looked like she had gotten a day pass from the hospital where she was receiveing treatment for a major illness, Ron looked like the cliched high-school jock who gained 40 pounds and went bald (only in his case he got a come-over instead :lol:) and Ginny looked as though was filming a 1970's flashback scene for Law and Order SVU. They all looked terrible but they couldn't all request not to be included in the last shot of the movie.

Let's clear something up right now: None of the trio were aged well in the epilogue! "17 years later" means that the trio would be 34/35; Harry looked like he was about 50 years old, Hermione looked like she had gotten a day pass from the hospital where she was receiveing treatment for a major illness, Ron looked like the cliched high-school jock who gained 40 pounds and went bald (only in his case he got a come-over instead :lol:) and Ginny looked as though was filming a 1970's flashback scene for Law and Order SVU. They all looked terrible but they couldn't all request not to be included in the last shot of the movie.

Have you seen the original images? They were sooooo bad JKR insisted that the epilogue be reshot.

Aged bad is right. Apparently all those years working for the Auror Department took it's toll on Harry and Ron.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luf2d3Jo5e1qi72uoo3_500.png

This is how I'd expect them to look when they see their grandchildren off to Hogwarts.

Aged bad is right. Apparently all those years working for the Auror Department took it's toll on Harry and Ron.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luf2d3Jo5e1qi72uoo3_500.png

This is how I'd expect them to look when they see their grandchildren off to Hogwarts.

Frankly I don't see the problem.:hmm:

I agree that it's a bit unreasonable to expect that every line spoken in the books by Ron would be given to Ron in the films. I have no problem with script shuffling in this manner. What I have a problem with is the lack of overall development of Ron as a character which leads him to be sidelined and to feel like the third wheel to Harry and Hermione. Ron was never the third wheel, he was a vital part of the trio.
Actually, I'm of the opinion that the line swapping added to problems of character perceptions/development. Sirius & Lupin get important lines that Dumbledore has with Harry one-on-one, which didn't help establish the relationship Harry & Dumbledore had in the books (and made worse by the yelling/anxious Dumbledore in GOF).

The one thing I think they got right in DH is that Ron had some important book dialogue when he explains to Hermione how he found his way back, how he heard her voice say his name, etc. (that was romantic in my view). I was disappointed though that they had Ron screaming in a goofy way as he ran from the Fiendfyre; that was like COS spiderville, and not an accurate depiction of Ron at that point.

Aged bad is right. Apparently all those years working for the Auror Department took it's toll on Harry and Ron.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luf2d3Jo5e1qi72uoo3_500.png

This is how I'd expect them to look when they see their grandchildren off to Hogwarts.

So I'm assuming this was the first failed attempt, then? Because Harry doesn't look as old in this one, & his hair's quite a bit longer in the film and has 5 o'clock shadow; and Ron's skin color is better in the film, and his clothes are different that the pic you posted (Ron looks like he has liver disease); also, they gave Ron more of a thick waistline in the film version.

Also, as a side note here -- the final scene doesn't clip Ron out of the picture, it clips out Ginny. I think people have been commenting that Ron's partly clipped out, but he isn't.

Also, as a side note here -- the final scene doesn't clip Ron out of the picture, it clips out Ginny. I think people have been commenting that Ron's partly clipped out, but he isn't.
No, he wasn't clipped out but he was the most sidelined. Harry and Hermione's faces were prominent and Ron might as well have been a background character who happened to be standing in the frame of the shot. It's almost as if they were obligated to put him there - because he's a Trio member - so they gave him a tiny space at the side of the screen, while keeping the focus on Harry and Hermione. They could very easily have made the three of them stand in a horizontal line so that they all get equal importance, but they didn't.

Frankly I don't see the problem.:hmm:

They're supposed to be in their mid-thirties. Ron here looks like a recluse on the verge of becoming a serial killer and is pushing fifty and Harry looks like he's 65 and dyes his hair brown.

May I also submit Draco's makeup for consideration?
http://www.cosforums.com/picture.php?albumid=2179&pictureid=18725

'Nuff said. :lol:

Sorry, this is perpetuating the off-topicness of the thread. It's still damned funny though.

No, he wasn't clipped out but he was the most sidelined. Harry and Hermione's faces were prominent and Ron might as well have been a background character who happened to be standing in the frame of the shot. It's almost as if they were obligated to put him there - because he's a Trio member - so they gave him a tiny space at the side of the screen, while keeping the focus on Harry and Hermione. They could very easily have made the three of them stand in a horizontal line so that they all get equal importance, but they didn't.

But to be fair, they're going to focus on Harry as it's his story, and Ron is less prominent because of the angle....but I don't think it means anything other than it's the angle. Hermione's space is much smaller than Harry's because of it....

Harry professed to love Hermione in a completely brotherly way - in fact, that is the beauty of Harry and Hermione's canon relationship; its untarnished by the predictable male lead-female lead romance - and, IMO, there wasn't anything sibling-like in that scene.
Sorry, I still don't see any romance at all. I see one friend trying to coax another out of a depressed mood for a little while.

The problem(s) I have with the dancing scene and how Ron is treated in the movies is manifold and many.

Yes, I think the movies tried to convey H\Hr as more understandable and acceptable than R\Hr, especially with the dance scene. The actors and director both say that it was intended to convey romantic feelings whether others such as HedwigOwl can see it or not. So either the actors didn't do a very good job of doing what the director told them (I think they did), or some in the audience just don't get what the scene was trying to say...which was that there was a romantic moment between Harry and Hermione.

The next morning when Hermione tells Harry she won't cut his hair again empahsizes the point, IMHO. In other words, they won't go there again...

I have two main problems with this.

Anja I think mentions that it really upsets R\Hr shippers... and she's right. It sure does upset this one! After long arguments with H\Hr shippers about how unworthy Ron is and how great Harry and Hermione are together and even having some H\Hr shippers counting the number of times Harry and Hermione touch in the series as proof of their eventual wedded bliss, it really gets all over me that the movies are also used as ammunition even now about how H\Hr should have been the "true outcome". AAARRRRGGGHHH!!! Sorry, I had to let it out...:)

Second, it shows that the movie makers either didn't understand what the HP series was about or they were cowards. IMHO, the HP series was alot about breaking stereotypes. The main male and female protagonists don't end up together. Luna has important things to say. Neville grows into a real hero. The leader of the resistance to evil (Dumbledore) is gay. Harry really doesn't want to be the hero.

While some of these elements are well portrayed in the movies, (Neville and Luna for example), they completely lose others. For example, at the end of OOTP after Sirius dies Harry comes apart and tries to tell Dumbledore that he can't bear the responsibility of being the Chosen One b\c so many of the ppl he loves are dying because of it. The movies completely fail to portray the anguish Harry is going through. I think they were afraid Harry would look bad to the audience and so they decided not to go there. That was such a great opprotunity lost for truly great drama for the series and for Radcliffe as an actor. In other words, I think they were cowards.

In the same way I think the movie makers decided to overplay Hermione's character and downplay Ron's character in order to keep things "simple" for the audience. They kept Ron's character simple and 2 demensional until DH 1. I have no doubt that Grint could have pulled it off, but for whatever reason they didn't follow the spirit of the series and went the easy way, not the right way (as Dumbledore might say :) )

In the process they lost H\G and played up a potential romantic liason that didn't exist in the books and actually ended up making Harry's character look worse, IMHO. Hitting on one of your best friends immeadiatlely after she lost her boyfriend is lower than low. And apparently the movie makers felt Dan and Emma were more appealing to the audience as a couple...which also shows cowardice, IMHO.

Yes, I think the movies tried to convey H\Hr as more understandable and acceptable than R\Hr, especially with the dance scene. The actors and director both say that it was intended to convey romantic feelings whether others such as HedwigOwl can see it or not. So either the actors didn't do a very good job of doing what the director told them (I think they did), or some in the audience just don't get what the scene was trying to say...which was that there was a romantic moment between Harry and Hermione.
Although Ron & Hermine aren't cemented as a couple until DH in the movies, I really don't see anywhere in the movies that they're trying to convey anything but a Ron/Hermione romantic relationship.

In the first movie -- and I had not started reading the series at that point -- I thought from the scene on the train to Hogwarts onward that Ron & Hermione were being set up as an eventual romantic pairing. In the 2nd movie, when Hermione joins the end of year feast and runs toward Harry & Ron, she hugs Harry, but both Ron & Hermione hesitate and don't hug, ending up shaking hands and being awkward -- a total giveaway that there are real feelings of attraction there and neither one knows how to handle it. In POA, we have Hermione taking Ron's hand in an anxious moment. In GOF it's no longer subtle, Hermione & Ron have romantic feelings for each other. In OOTP I don't recall anything overt either way, but haven't watched that movie in a while. In HBP it's more obvious than ever, as it is in DH in my opinion. I think the dance, no matter what the objectives of the director, was not conveyed that way by the actors...perhaps subconsciously because they knew their characters better.

Anja I think mentions that it really upsets R\Hr shippers... and she's right. It sure does upset this one! After long arguments with H\Hr shippers about how unworthy Ron is and how great Harry and Hermione are together and even having some H\Hr shippers counting the number of times Harry and Hermione touch in the series as proof of their eventual wedded bliss, it really gets all over me that the movies are also used as ammunition even now about how H\Hr should have been the "true outcome". AAARRRRGGGHHH!!! Sorry, I had to let it out...:)


But isn't that just an example of yet another thing HP fans disagree with each other about? Some people like H/Hr some like R/Hr. It's not about being right or wrong IMO since there are arguments to be made in favour of both ships. The movies did make R/Hr canon despite their flirts with Harmony. If H/Hr shippers watch the movies and that makes them happy then I don't see any problem. The Heron shippers already have canon on their side anyway so what does it matter?

In the same way I think the movie makers decided to overplay Hermione's character and downplay Ron's character in order to keep things "simple" for the audience. They kept Ron's character simple and 2 demensional until DH 1. I have no doubt that Grint could have pulled it off, but for whatever reason they didn't follow the spirit of the series and went the easy way, not the right way

I think it might be an issue of what works for the books not working for the movies- or at least that's what the script writers believed. Emma turned out to be a beautiful girl and everyone who had not read the books might be watching the movie and wonder why Dan would choose Ron's little sister over her. I think the filmmakers always knew they had to make H/G canon but decided to use the opportunity to add some extra romantic tension in order to silence those wondering why Harry and Hermione don't end up together. They chose to use that cliched expectation in some way instead of pretending it wasn't there.


Although Ron & Hermine aren't cemented as a couple until DH in the movies, I really don't see anywhere in the movies that they're trying to convey anything but a Ron/Hermione romantic relationship.


I agree with your examples but I think the filmmakers promoted both ships at the same time to keep the audience on their toes about who will end up with whom- at least those who hadn't read the books. I do think the dance scene has some romantic undertone. It's not in-your-face but I think it's there. Especially when Harry comes close to Hermione and takes the locket off her. But it's a matter of interpretation of course since it's not that obvious.

Well, I am not exactly one to pick apart the romance behind the story, and, quite frankly, I could care less about it. But, to jump in uncharacteristically, and I hope that no offense is taken to this statement, but I feel as though the supposed “romance” in the dancing scene between Harry and Hermione only exists for those who are willingly looking for it. I saw a comforting picture, quite fitting considering the circumstances. But, right afterwards, what happens? Hermione walks away, her thoughts never truly straying from Ron. I think there are different ways of observing this instance. Perhaps it was there to enforce just how detrimental Ron's absence was on the entire journey. In addition, the dancing scene provides a connection between two people who have, over the course of Ron's disappearance, not interacted in the slightest. Whether or not the two characters stared into each other's eyes, or hugged, is irrelevant, in my opinion. If anything, the scene provided insight into the hopelessness of the situation, of their own emotions, and had little to do with character pairings. Ron is not shunted to the background, even if he is momentarily forgotten in that moment. His presence, or lack thereof, is brought back when reality sets back in. If anything, this reinforces his importance.

But isn't that just an example of yet another thing HP fans disagree with each other about? Some people like H/Hr some like R/Hr. It's not about being right or wrong IMO since there are arguments to be made in favour of both ships. The movies did make R/Hr canon despite their flirts with Harmony. If H/Hr shippers watch the movies and that makes them happy then I don't see any problem. The Heron shippers already have canon on their side anyway so what does it matter?

Because, IMHO, they went the easy route instead of the right one. They could have used the true storyline and left the original character's development alone and had a much better movie series , IMHO. Instead they went the easy way and used stereotypes all too often.



I think it might be an issue of what works for the books not working for the movies- or at least that's what the script writers believed. Emma turned out to be a beautiful girl and everyone who had not read the books might be watching the movie and wonder why Dan would choose Ron's little sister over her. I think the filmmakers always knew they had to make H/G canon but decided to use the opportunity to add some extra romantic tension in order to silence those wondering why Harry and Hermione don't end up together. They chose to use that cliched expectation in some way instead of pretending it wasn't there.

And here is another example of thinking in stereotypes, if you don't mind me saying. Just b\c Emma is a beauty doesn't make it obvious that she would be tempted into having a romantic interlude with the main hero (or Harry with Hermione). Even if women find Daniel more attractive it doesn't match with one of JKR's basic tenets in HP, which is you can't judge ppl merely by their appearance. Again, Neville and Luna are perfect examples in the books and the movies against this attitude.

As for the "cliched expectations", those expectations only existed b\c of the way they dumbed down Ron's character and overempahsized Hermione's emotional importance to Harry and the trio. If they had let movieRon be more like bookRon and movieHermione be more like bookHermione and movieHarry etc., etc...then they could have spent more time letting the audience understand more about the sacrifices and drama in the trio's relationships with each other and those around them. In other words they were condescending toward their audience in a way JKR wasn't. They dumbed down the characters and relationships b\c they thought their audience wouldn't be able to understand the originals, IMHO.

I'm not expecting for the movies to be a perfect replay of the books, but they could have let the basic characterizations stay intact and had more opprotunities for true drama in the movies that they failed to exploit. :no: I'm not just talking about H\Hr and R\Hr, but H\G and Lupin and the Weasleys and Voldemort and so many others. All b\c they had no faith in their audience. Sad really. :(

But I'll admit that the dance scene brings out the stronest objections b\c of my long enjoyment of the R\Hr subplot and b\c it does such a disservice to Harry's character and his relationships with Hermione and Ginny, IMHO.

Well, I am not exactly one to pick apart the romance behind the story, and, quite frankly, I could care less about it. But, to jump in uncharacteristically, and I hope that no offense is taken to this statement, but I feel as though the supposed “romance” in the dancing scene between Harry and Hermione only exists for those who are willingly looking for it.

Again, the director and the actors have all said that there was supposed to be a romantic spark between Harry and Hermione in that scene. I'm merely seeing what they said they wanted me to see.


saw a comforting picture, quite fitting considering the circumstances. But, right afterwards, what happens? Hermione walks away, her thoughts never truly straying from Ron. I think there are different ways of observing this instance. Perhaps it was there to enforce just how detrimental Ron's absence was on the entire journey.

I think they could have done it much differnetly than to change the basic characteristics of the trio and how they interact.

In addition, the dancing scene provides a connection between two people who have, over the course of Ron's disappearance, not interacted in the slightest. Whether or not the two characters stared into each other's eyes, or hugged, is irrelevant, in my opinion. If anything, the scene provided insight into the hopelessness of the situation, of their own emotions, and had little to do with character pairings. Ron is not shunted to the background, even if he is momentarily forgotten in that moment. His presence, or lack thereof, is brought back when reality sets back in. If anything, this reinforces his importance.

I'm not sure how throwing in romance adds to the loss of Ron. :hmm: It would seem to me that if they simply showed them longing for their loved ones like Ginny and Ron instead of turning to each other, that would make more sense and strengthen the level of isolation. The idea that they were dependent on each other was shown in the visit to the graveyard and the battle with Nagini and the scene in the forest of Dean before Ron's return.

I think they just wanted to put the two actors they felt to be the most attractive together in order to meet their own stereotyped views, IMHO.

Well, I am not exactly one to pick apart the romance behind the story, and, quite frankly, I could care less about it. But, to jump in uncharacteristically, and I hope that no offense is taken to this statement, but I feel as though the supposed “romance” in the dancing scene between Harry and Hermione only exists for those who are willingly looking for it. I saw a comforting picture, quite fitting considering the circumstances. But, right afterwards, what happens? Hermione walks away, her thoughts never truly straying from Ron. I think there are different ways of observing this instance. Perhaps it was there to enforce just how detrimental Ron's absence was on the entire journey. In addition, the dancing scene provides a connection between two people who have, over the course of Ron's disappearance, not interacted in the slightest. Whether or not the two characters stared into each other's eyes, or hugged, is irrelevant, in my opinion. If anything, the scene provided insight into the hopelessness of the situation, of their own emotions, and had little to do with character pairings. Ron is not shunted to the background, even if he is momentarily forgotten in that moment. His presence, or lack thereof, is brought back when reality sets back in. If anything, this reinforces his importance.
I agree. I don't understand why the movie dance scene is interpreted by some in a romantic way -- regardless of what the director may have wanted, I think the scene doesn't come across that way. Not every action between men & women is romantic or sexual, even for close emotional moments. The only comment JKR has made on the scene between Harry & Hermione at the cemetary in Godric's Hollow is predicated completely on neither Ron nor Ginny being in the picture, which did not happen. I find it interesting and bewildering that the author's comments on the sharing of deeply emotional moments by two characters is automatically interpreted by some fans as a "betrayal" of the eventual pairings, and somehow "romantic". How is grief and sorrow at seeing your parents' graves for the first time romantic by any stretch of the imagination?

Well, I am not exactly one to pick apart the romance behind the story, and, quite frankly, I could care less about it. But, to jump in uncharacteristically, and I hope that no offense is taken to this statement, but I feel as though the supposed “romance” in the dancing scene between Harry and Hermione only exists for those who are willingly looking for it.
Like you, I'm not much interested in shipping, especially not that concerning the teens but even so, while I was not "willingly" looking for any romance in that scene or in others, I think the filmmakers' intention of creating a "will they won't they" moment there and in other scenes worked.


And here is another example of thinking in stereotypes, if you don't mind me saying. Just b\c Emma is a beauty doesn't make it obvious that she would be tempted into having a romantic interlude with the main hero (or Harry with Hermione). Even if women find Daniel more attractive it doesn't match with one of JKR's basic tenets in HP, which is you can't judge ppl merely by their appearance. Again, Neville and Luna are perfect examples in the books and the movies against this attitude.


It is stereotypical, I agree, but I think we have to keep in mind that when then flirt with H/Hr began (somewhere around PoA I believe) the canon pairings were not yet established which means that Harry/Hermione was still a real possibility. I think that the filmmakers were partial to H/Hr from the beginning, though I'm not sure it was because they thought Emma was too pretty for the sidekick or just because they thought JKR would go with stereotypes and pair Harry and Hermione up in which case they simply wanted to be ready for it. They also sort of foreshadowed Hr/R so they played with both possibilities.

As for the "cliched expectations", those expectations only existed b\c of the way they dumbed down Ron's character and overempahsized Hermione's emotional importance to Harry and the trio. If they had let movieRon be more like bookRon and movieHermione be more like bookHermione and movieHarry etc., etc...then they could have spent more time letting the audience understand more about the sacrifices and drama in the trio's relationships with each other and those around them. In other words they were condescending toward their audience in a way JKR wasn't. They dumbed down the characters and relationships b\c they thought their audience wouldn't be able to understand the originals, IMHO

Yes, it's possible that the whole thing was a self fulfilling prophecy. On the other hand, they could have thought they were doing the books justice and capturing the Trio's relationship as it was in canon. While I personally don't see much chemistry between Harry and Hermione in canon I know many people do and can even give examples to back this up. So it's possible that the script writers also interpreted the Trio as a possible love triangle and wanted the movies to reflect that. Hermione being like a sister to Harry may not be so obvious and plausible to all people.

I agree. I don't understand why the movie dance scene is interpreted by some in a romantic way -- regardless of what the director may have wanted, I think the scene doesn't come across that way. Not every action between men & women is romantic or sexual, even for close emotional moments.

Yes but how would you go about showing subtle romantic tension between two characters if you don't want them to outright kiss or hold hands? It would probably be in the way they look at each other and treat each other, right? I think that's what the director thought as well. Not everything has to be in your face in order to be present.

The only comment JKR has made on the scene between Harry & Hermione at the cemetary in Godric's Hollow is predicated completely on neither Ron nor Ginny being in the picture, which did not happen. I find it interesting and bewildering that the author's comments on the sharing of deeply emotional moments by two characters is automatically interpreted by some fans as a "betrayal" of the eventual pairings, and somehow "romantic". How is grief and sorrow at seeing your parents' graves for the first time romantic by any stretch of the imagination?
I don't understand what you are refering to here. As far as my understanding goes, no fan has complained about what JKR said but rather about what the movies did. There is nothing romantic about what happens at Godric's Hollow neither in the books nor in the movies but that isn't the scene in question.

It is stereotypical, I agree, but I think we have to keep in mind that when then flirt with H/Hr began (somewhere around PoA I believe) the canon pairings were not yet established which means that Harry/Hermione was still a real possibility. I think that the filmmakers were partial to H/Hr from the beginning, though I'm not sure it was because they thought Emma was too pretty for the sidekick or just because they thought JKR would go with stereotypes and pair Harry and Hermione up in which case they simply wanted to be ready for it. They also sort of foreshadowed Hr/R so they played with both possibilities.

Kloves had it right in the first four movies--remember what a prat Ron was about Hermione being Victor's date at the Yule Ball? I think the romances went off the rails when Yates became the director. He may have preferred H/Hr for whatever reason, but in the end he had no choice about who marries who.

Yes but how would you go about showing subtle romantic tension between two characters if you don't want them to outright kiss or hold hands? It would probably be in the way they look at each other and treat each other, right? I think that's what the director thought as well. Not everything has to be in your face in order to be present.
The thing is, I don't see anything present. I believe the actors, with a better knowledge of their characters and after several years, just couldn't go there. Frankly I think the director saw what he wanted, just as many still-shipper-arguing fans do. I simply don't see any romantic anything between Harry & Hermione in the dance scene or anywhere else in the films.

I don't understand what you are refering to here. As far as my understanding goes, no fan has complained about what JKR said but rather about what the movies did. There is nothing romantic about what happens at Godric's Hollow neither in the books nor in the movies but that isn't the scene in question.
That's probably because you may not have read far enough back in the threads on this topic. JKR's comment on the book scene in Goldric's Hollow was used both for and against "romantic" overtones being present in the dancing scene (for because the possibility was there in her comments even though qualified, and against because some don't accept JKR's comments in interview as "canon").

Kloves had it right in the first four movies--remember what a prat Ron was about Hermione being Victor's date at the Yule Ball? I think the romances went off the rails when Yates became the director. He may have preferred H/Hr for whatever reason, but in the end he had no choice about who marries who.
I don't think the director derailed anything. There really was no romance in OOTP except for Harry's crush on Cho, and Ginny's notice of it. In HBP romance is all over the place, with Ron & Hermione being together, and Harry & Ginny making the move toward being a couple as well. That pretty much follows the books in my opinion.

It is stereotypical, I agree, but I think we have to keep in mind that when then flirt with H/Hr began (somewhere around PoA I believe) the canon pairings were not yet established which means that Harry/Hermione was still a real possibility. I think that the filmmakers were partial to H/Hr from the beginning, though I'm not sure it was because they thought Emma was too pretty for the sidekick or just because they thought JKR would go with stereotypes and pair Harry and Hermione up in which case they simply wanted to be ready for it. They also sort of foreshadowed Hr/R so they played with both possibilities.


It's really hard to debate with someone when what they (you) seem to be saying is,"You're right, but it's really not all that big a deal." :) :rolleyes:

I don't think the director derailed anything. There really was no romance in OOTP except for Harry's crush on Cho, and Ginny's notice of it. In HBP romance is all over the place, with Ron & Hermione being together, and Harry & Ginny making the move toward being a couple as well. That pretty much follows the books in my opinion.

No romance between Ron and Hermione, of course, but plenty of tension was there. Why else was Ron such a jerk? Hermione really, really wanted Ron to ask her, but finally gave up and accepted Viktor's invitation.

I have just watched this scene again while going through the movie looking for something entirely different and it just made me smile. Harry's dancing is terrible whether intentional or not but it makes both of them laugh and now I think it wasn't just Hermione missing Ron but also Harry missing his mate. Yes, Ron seems to be in the background always but he's there, he's got Harry's back in every battle. Later when Hermione says to Harry not to let her cut his hair again, I feel she's giving him a hint not to feel anything for her. That seems to have come out badly but I hope you know what I mean.

Hermione's "Don't ever let me give you a haircut again" remark to Harry could simply be her acknowledging she did a bad job.

Hermione's "Don't ever let me give you a haircut again" remark to Harry could simply be her acknowledging she did a bad job.

Yeah, Occam's razor.

It was just a dance. Good for them. What I found unnecessary was the scene where Ron used the Godric Sword to kill a Horcrux, particularly the H/Hr image, it needed more smoke.

The thing is, I don't see anything present. I believe the actors, with a better knowledge of their characters and after several years, just couldn't go there. Frankly I think the director saw what he wanted, just as many still-shipper-arguing fans do.

Sorry but this sounds to me like you're saying that everyone who saw something there is biased while all those who didn't are taking a sober and objective view. I really don't think it's a case of someone wanting or not wanting to see something. I think people who don't see it might also be affected by having read the books and knowing that Harry ends up with Ginny and that Hermione loves Ron. So the lack of objectivity goes both ways, IMO, if we believe there is a lack of objectivity.

It's really hard to debate with someone when what they (you) seem to be saying is,"You're right, but it's really not all that big a deal." :) :rolleyes:

Well I think my position on this issue has been clear from the beginning but leaving that aside, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be a big deal to a particular fan or fans. The more interesting matter to discuss is whether or not the movies made the books an injustice by creating what I believe to be romantic tension between Hermione and Harry. Since the dance scene has caused such an "uproar" I believe we're dealing with something more here besides the movies deviating from canon. The movies don't respect canon in other issues as well yet those things didn't make people so upset.

Hermione's "Don't ever let me give you a haircut again" remark to Harry could simply be her acknowledging she did a bad job.
I'm not sure about that one but I personally have always wondered about the scene where Ron and Hermione are about to enter the CoS and Ron says that Harry talks in his sleep and asks Hermione if she's noticed. At which point Hermione looks away embarassed and says no. What's up with that? The look on her face is almost like she's being dishonest but is that just an acting mistake or what are they implying in that scene? I'm not saying that was another H/Hr thing, but I wonder about it every time I see DH2.

Well I think my position on this issue has been clear from the beginning but leaving that aside, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be a big deal to a particular fan or fans. The more interesting matter to discuss is whether or not the movies made the books an injustice by creating what I believe to be romantic tension between Hermione and Harry. Since the dance scene has caused such an "uproar" I believe we're dealing with something more here besides the movies deviating from canon. The movies don't respect canon in other issues as well yet those things didn't make people so upset.

First, let me say that I was just joking. I like your even-handed approach. I was just comparing it to my pro-R\Hr biased opinion.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the dance scene is only the most upsetting deviance from the book characters to me. I also don't like how they changed Harry, Hermione, Ron and the basic relationships inside and outside of the the Trio. They seemed to have let Luna and Neville alone, although they even had to add a romance to them that didn't exist before.

But as I said earlier, as a R\Hr shipper and and huge fan of the trio the obvious (to me) attempt to add H\Hr elements into the movies either b\c they thought it would sell better or b\c of their own stereotypical view really gets my goat.


I'm not sure about that one but I personally have always wondered about the scene where Ron and Hermione are about to enter the CoS and Ron says that Harry talks in his sleep and asks Hermione if she's noticed. At which point Hermione looks away embarassed and says no. What's up with that? The look on her face is almost like she's being dishonest but is that just an acting mistake or what are they implying in that scene? I'm not saying that was another H/Hr thing, but I wonder about it every time I see DH2.

IMHO, I think that was added to let the H\Hr ppl have a chance to interpete it as a H\Hr clue while not being too obvious about it. It could also be interpeted as Hermione being upset that she is not as observant of Harry as we thought. But that flies in the face of all that the movies had said before, so its my belief it was really intended as another H\Hr moment.

Its amazing how this scene NEVER fails to spark debate. :D. I just want to comment on the the scene that Sereena mentioned: just before they entered CoS. I thought it was a very odd scene as well. However though I agree with darklordspal on most things he says, here I tend to be on the opposite side of the fence (if such a fence exists at all). I think it was just poor acting in that one instance. They were going for humour, and Emma over-played the awkwardness into slight nervousness which suggests what you might be seeing. I thought it was more of a, what sort of weird question is that kind of a moment. I think the off-canon flirtation with the H/Hr ship ended with the dance scene. Thereafter it was pretty much R/Hr (which is also why I think they thought they could get away with the dance scene; hedging their risks basically). Except that moment where Hermione says Ill come with you; I was mightily ****** off that it became a harry/hermione friendship moment instead of a trio moment. I think its ** that harry and ron had an "unspoken" moment. When your best friend is going to his death you don't just nod at him and hope, heya he will know that I will miss him terribly. Let me sit in the corner and look down in the meanwhile.
Now that it is all over, I am not ashamed to say that I hate the way the movies butchered the trio's equation. I am all for cinematic licenses, but characters make stories, not situations. Even if you alter situations, you should NEVER alter characters. And they pretty much missed the entire point of the heart and soul of the trio. I really hope BBC does an adaptation 10 years from now. i am pretty sure they will do a MUCH better job.

IMHO, I think that was added to let the H\Hr ppl have a chance to interpete it as a H\Hr clue while not being too obvious about it. It could also be interpeted as Hermione being upset that she is not as observant of Harry as we thought. But that flies in the face of all that the movies had said before, so its my belief it was really intended as another H\Hr moment.
I really think it was just a joke by Ron, but also intended to show that Ron was past his anxiety in the relationship. Or you could have a point about Ron noticing something Hermione did not. At Grimmauld, they were all sleeping in one room, as in the tent when they were on the run.

The dance doesn't bother me because it wasn't in the book.

Do I think the filmmakers were blinded by their preference for the actors, and had their own agenda when it came to adding scenes for them, while cutting all the important Ron Hermione ones? Yes, I do. But that doesn't change the fact that their silly little triangle never existed in the books.

One thing I will say, is I found Steve Kloves's writing in favor or H/Hr to just come off looking desperate in the end, to the point where it was just pathetic.

"maybe we should just stay here, harry. Grow old" ??? I mean, could he have been more obvious?

Well, Hermione did grow old in the end, with the man she loved. But it was Ron. And Kloves was forced to write their last scene together, because it's how JK wrote her characters. So in the end he still lost.

Even if you alter situations, you should NEVER alter characters.

Tell that to Peter Jackson. The amount of character-alteration in his LotR movies far exceeds anything in the HP films. :)

Well, Hermione did grow old in the end, with the man she loved. But it was Ron. And Kloves was forced to write their last scene together, because it's how JK wrote her characters. So in the end he still lost.

I'm sure he's devastated. :lol:

For what it's worth, I do see romantic tension in the dance scene. I find it rather clumsy, but I know other folk who like it and find it sweet. I'm certainly not at all bothered by it, because my emotional investment in the canon teenage romances of HP is nil.

I like the friendship between the Trio, it's a very strong element in the series, the glue that keeps a lot together. But I honestly couldn't care less who any of them ended up with. (And, no, I'm not a H/H shipper.)

IMHO, I think that was added to let the H\Hr ppl have a chance to interpete it as a H\Hr clue while not being too obvious about it.

That was the film makers' attempts at subtely then? I'd say it was a big fat fail :lol:

Even if you alter situations, you should NEVER alter characters.

I disagree so some extent here. The reason I almost agree is that I really hated the way in which the film makers altered the characters - Harry became so passive by the end of the series that he was almost not the same character. BookHarry was a leader, MovieHarry was not.

The reason I disagree is that movies and books are two separate animals. It is extremely rare that a character can be lifted from a book and plunked into a movie without any alterations. I'll use Girl with the Dragon Tattoo as an example because Lisbeth underwent big changes to make it to the movie (and I watched to movie last night so it's fresh in my mind). BookLisbeth is awesome, she's got an attitude, she operates based on her own moral compass and her motivations for her being the way she is are all explained through her incredible back story. HOWEVER, had you picked BookLisbeth up and threw her into the movie everyone on the planet would have hated her. Without the background information given to you through the exposition she is a very unlikable character because of the things she does so MovieLisbeth, by necessity, had to be somewhat softened. The film makers, however, stayed pretty true to the intent of her character.

In the HP movies, I feel like the intent of the characters was lost at times. The major growth of Harry's character over the course of OOTP and his leadership trial by fire with the D.A. was all forgotten by the time HBP rolls around and he's lost all his leadership abilities and has to have Ginny get the quidditch trials group under control. Hermione, due to Emma's styling, was no longer the ugly duckling who lacked the confidence that the boy she liked would like her back, she was now the pretty girl being unabashedly mean to her friend for seemingly no reason. Ron's character faded away as his contributions to the plots were time and again given to Hermione and he was brought back a lot of the time for pure comic relief.

What all of these changes led to was the possibility that Hermione and Harry would choose to be together, a possibility that was never in the books for even a second and, IMO, had no business being in the movies.

For what it's worth, I do see romantic tension in the dance scene. I find it rather clumsy, but I know other folk who like it and find it sweet. I'm certainly not at all bothered by it, because my emotional investment in the canon teenage romances of HP is nil.

I like the friendship between the Trio, it's a very strong element in the series, the glue that keeps a lot together. But I honestly couldn't care less who any of them ended up with. (And, no, I'm not a H/H shipper.)

Like you, Pearl_Took, I have zero interest in the H/Hr, R/Hr, H/G romances or any other permutations therein. I think the triumph of the books is in reinforcing the friendship of the trio and while I say that I have no interest in the Harry-era ships, I do think that the introduction of the H/Hr shipper stuff to the movies hugely damaged the theme of friendship by making us even consider whether Harry would backstab Ron and steal his girl or whether Hermione would throw away Ron's affections and choose Harry. Harry' vehement denial that anything would have ever happened between him and Hermione reinforced his friendship with Ron and with Hermione and was a lovely moment in the books that, as far as I can recall, never made it to the movie and the movie suffered for it. (Though, IMO, the movie had already shot itself in the foot by that point...)

I really think it was just a joke by Ron, but also intended to show that Ron was past his anxiety in the relationship. Or you could have a point about Ron noticing something Hermione did not. At Grimmauld, they were all sleeping in one room, as in the tent when they were on the run.

Another way it could be interpeted is that Hermione is completely thrown off stride by the new, confident Ron. I will admit that the movies did a pretty good job of giving Ron his due in the Battle of Hogwarts.

Another way it could be interpeted is that Hermione is completely thrown off stride by the new, confident Ron. I will admit that the movies did a pretty good job of giving Ron his due in the Battle of Hogwarts.
That's an interesting thought. Kind of like when Hermione's shocked that Ron remembers something she said a while ago about the room of requirement not showing on the map.

That's an interesting thought. Kind of like when Hermione's shocked that Ron remembers something she said a while ago about the room of requirement not showing on the map.

I particularly liked how Ron gave Hermione strength before she stabbed the cup. Hermione's destruction of the cup wasn't described in the book and I was really pleased they added that to the movie. :cool:

I particularly liked how Ron gave Hermione strength before she stabbed the cup. Hermione's destruction of the cup wasn't described in the book and I was really pleased they added that to the movie. :cool:


Agree, i was going to say this.. xD