The Importance of Alchemy [Archive]

Venustas

July 26th, 2003, 9:34 am

--Here are some more findings based on alchemy, sorry if it gets too scientific or laborious, I tried to pull the main points that seem to be related to the plot--

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/a1/alchemy.asp
Alexandria is generally considered a center of early alchemy
It is believed that the concept of the philosopher's stone… may have originated in Alexandria;

--Keep your eye on Bill, there’s been speculation that he’s a very powerful wizard- no doubt, if he’s been living in the capital of alchemy, I bet he’s learned a lot and is capable of a lot.--

--Regulus Black- the supposed dead younger brother of Sirius, named for the star, Regulus, in the constellation of Leo, the lion. This star is known as the little king. There is a link that goes into his name and possible purpose in the story. It’s interesting to note that ‘regulus’ is also an alchemy term.--

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/markh_1.html
To the alchemists, however, antimony was not the metal itself but stibnite, the lead-gray ore from which it was extracted by heating it with charcoal or some other mild reducing agent.
The metallic antimony sinks to the bottom, and this (our element) is what the alchemists called the regulus of antimony.

--I think, in other words, that the regulus is the essence, or pure form of a metal- Gold is the purist form of metal- Harry symbolises Gold, Regulus may be the symbolic purifier- of what, or how? I don’t know--

The last two paragraphs speak of a reducing agent [this should be done in a furnace in a crucible] saltpeter or potassium sodium nitrate acts as a fluxing agent and iron and eventually silver will act as the reducing agents. When the regulus is poured into the warmed mold the metal sinks down [you may tap on the mold with a hammer to help it sink down to the bottom while the scoria solidifies as it cools on top of the metal.] A button of metal is obtained this way, which must undergo further purifications to reach the star regulus.

*The name probably derived from the Latin regulus, meaning petty king. Because the regulus of antimony combines readily with gold (the king of metals) it became important to the process of refining the precious metal and an object of considerable experimental interest to seventeenth-century adepts.
The regulus was also separated from stibnite by the introduction of various metallic reducing agents, in which case it became the regulus of Venus (copper), the regulus of Jupiter (tin), the regulus of Saturn (lead), or most importantly, the regulus of Mars (iron).

The star regulus to which has been added silver; its ensuing purification to purple or violet color; additionally triple distilled Hg is incorporated, its then washed and ground, and washed again until it is a pure and shining mirror...the black particles that are washed away from the amalgam is kept for further research.

--Regulus’s family seems linked with silver in our alchemy-related symbolism- when it’s added to silver, it’s purified into purple (we’ve been wondering about all those purple references! Often in the books purple is preceded by the word “violent”, something to think about). When it’s washed it is a mirror- I would bet that Sirius’s mirror is going to be used yet, and it sounds like it will be between Harry and Regulus- it just needs to be Reparo-ed :-) --

--Also, gold and blood seem to be linked in alchemy, but I don’t exactly know how. Blood has been important through the stories in Lily’s charm to protect Harry, bloodlines in families, and in the rebirthing process. I think it will continue to be important.--

Other things to think about:
In alchemy, the moon and sun seem to be linked/ a part of each other – I can see how this applies to Harry and Voldemort, but Luna is throwing me off.
Luna is described with silvery eyes
Hermione’s specialty is a waterproof fire- no idea how that is going to come in, but I bet it’s important.
Snape gave an assignment concerning “moonstones”- these are interesting gems because they may reflect the light like the moon, or let light pass through it.

Ares'Fury

July 26th, 2003, 11:08 am

How you people come up with that stuff is beyond me. However, good theories I could have never come up with that.

Thayet

September 14th, 2003, 3:27 pm

Alchemy is actually a real form of magick, is it not? I read about it in a book on wicca. I will post more about it when I get my nice computer back.

Sabine

September 14th, 2003, 4:03 pm

I think that this alchemy-thing is a really good find. Especially since I found it a little "disturbing" to read a lot about "ancient magic" in the last books and found it never really good explained. I began researching on the "ancient magic" aspect and alchemy is a very good point there.

Sabine

silver ink pot

September 14th, 2003, 11:02 pm

:love: Venustas and Ellen! Great research - I've learned alot!

It really makes Regulus Black even more interesting. So now we know that his name is an alchemy term. If his father was into alchemy, it might explain why the house had so many security measures taken to keep people out! :whistle:

And you may not know this, but Regulus has another meaning as well.

http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestiary_old/alt/translat/trans66r.html

The basilisk's name in Greek, translated into Latin, regulus, means 'little king'. It is so called because it is the king of crawling things, who flee when they see it, because it kills them with its scent. It will even kill a man just by looking at him. Indeed, no bird can fly past unharmed by its gaze but, however far away, will be burnt up and devoured in its mouth.

Isn't that weird? One day we think he's named for the star in Leo. Then I find out he's named after the basilisk. Then I find out he is named for an alchemical term.

I don't think I quite agree with the gold/good, silver/evil theory. Even though your examples are brilliant! I think we have to remember what Sirius Black said about the world isn't divided into good wizards and evil wizards.

For example, Dumbledore is associated with silver in every book! Remember his silver instruments? Not to mention his silver hair. Harry picks up a "lunascope" in his office and throws it into the fire. Harry is a Leo, associated with the Sun, so perhaps that is indicative of Harry choosing to be on "fire" with his anger, instead of being more introspective like the moon. The entire scene in Dumbledore's office is like a sundial, as the sunlight comes in the window and illuminates stuff on his desk. I am fascinated by that!

But I think that Dumbledore would say that Slytherin is not all evil, and you can learn from everyone! Remember that Harry is associated with snakes as well. And Slytherins have "helped him on his way" as the Sorting Hat said - Snape and Phineas Nigellus, for instance. And these books have alot about discovering who you are beyond your house! Luna supports Gryffindor with her lion hat. Hermione is smarter than the Ravenclaws. Neville is good with plants like a Hufflepuff. James and Sirius are more cruel to Snape than any Gryffindor should be! It isn't cut and dried.

Also, silver is the source of "colloidal silver" a natural antibiotic that people still use today. People knew that silver could keep you well if you drank and ate out of silver dishes. This is probably a future topic for a Snape essay.

Do you have a link to the information about the "gum?" We need that on the "Neville, Voldemort, and Alot of Gum" Thread!!! Just last night I made a post about Ron blowing purple bubbles out of his broken wand in Chamber of Secrets. That is the wand that later erases Lockhart's memory. That's pretty negative.

Tonks is the one with the "violent violet" hair. I wondered about that, Venustas - Thanks! This gives me so much to think about!

Red Herring

September 15th, 2003, 12:26 am

Wow, Ellen, Where to start?

The Philosopher's Stone had both a literal (a stone used to create gold and immortality) and a spiritual sense (overcoming personal flaws, spiritual perfection). Voldemort is obsessed with the getting the literal things, even if he no longer is after the actual Stone. Harry is finding the inner things. In the spiritual sense, the person is the Stone.

There were seven steps to creating the Stone. The creation was compared to the education of a child - the seven years of school at Hogwarts (and the seven books) are each a step on Harry's journey. This is great! Could you tell us all seven stages? I'd say Harry and LV are both in the black stage at the moment - is that the 5th one? Voldie is staying there, and Harry has to get past it. (Hm, Tom Riddle was in his 5th year when he figured out the Chamber of Secrets. Part of JKR's plan?)

One of the symbols of the stone is the head of the caduceus, a golden ball with wings. Wow, the snitch! For the last couple of years, the snitch has been out of reach to Harry (GoF's Triwizard Tournament and OotP's "lifelong ban"). Symbolizing how far he has to go? Will the 7th book be packed with Quidditch?

Gum (I kid you not) represented the annihilation of the parents in the creation of the Child/Stone - Those gum wrappers mean something! I gotta hear more about this on the gum thread.

The vulture, referred to as female, is garrulous but speaks the truth - Neville's grandmother?
Sounds like it to me.

Iggie

September 15th, 2003, 1:06 am

I'm glad to see that there is a thread already going here in regards to alchemy, as I've been spending many hours this last week researching this very subject. I think that the "Unspeakables" of the DoM might be alchemists, as the real-life alchemists were notorious for secrecy involving their work. So here's where I'm going to post the things that I have learned so far, and hopefully I won't have too many things that haven't already been posted.

Alchemists would have come from many backgrounds. Some of the first would have been the ancient Egyptians, as they searched for immortality through mummification. Later, you'll find that alchemists used many disciplines in their work, such as astrology, chemistry, metallurgy, psychology, medicine, mathematics, physics, etc...

Claudius Ptolemy, (featured on a chocolate frog card), first tied alchemy with the four elements of the earth, the seven planetary spheres, and the twelve signs of the zodiac. After this, it became standard to divide alchemy into four, seven, and twelve stages. Already it has been mentioned that there are four houses in Hogwarts and students learn for seven years, so I'll just add that twelve has always been another prominent number in HP, with the last reference so far being the twelve rooms in the DoM.

Cornelius Agrippa, also featured on a chocolate frog card, founded a secret society sworn to help each other advance through astrology, magic, the Cabbala, and alchemy. (A society like the Unspeakables?) He also set about classifying the "good" and "bad" schools of magic, with the Knights Templar falling in the latter category. (Knights of Walpurgis, i.e. the Death Eaters?)

Basil Valentine, not featured on a card, published the twelve keys of alchemy, and believed that love played a crucial role in spiritual alchemy. (The "love" room in the DoM?)

Pythagoras found correlations between music and mathematics, and is considered by some to be the forerunner to musical alchemy. (Remember Dumbeldore's comment on music being stronger than magic in the first book?)

Mercury, sulphur, and salt were the three elements necessary to chemical alchemy, but only served as symbols for other forms of alchemy. For example, in spiritual alchemy, mercury equals the life force, sulphur equals the soul, and salt equals the physical body. In musical alchemy, it would be mercury=tone, sulphur=melody, and salt=rhythm. I suspect that there would be substitutions in the wizarding world as well, and here are my suggestions for animal alchemy:

Mercury = Unicorn blood, as they are alike in appearance.

Salt = The tears of the phoenix, as tears are comprised of water and salt.

Sulphur = Dragon blood, as cinnabar, (which means dragon's blood in Persian), is a compound of mercury and sulphur, and cinnabar was used by alchemists in their work.

That's all I have so far, but I'll add on to it if I find anything.

silver ink pot

September 15th, 2003, 6:15 pm

Iggie: :clap: Awesome Post! Wow!

Basil Valentine, not featured on a card, published the twelve keys of alchemy, and believed that love played a crucial role in spiritual alchemy. (The "love" room in the DoM?)

Love that name - what a discovery! Also might explain the whole "Valentine" chapter in Chamber of Secrets. I am fascinated by that Chapter and what it means. It seemed just silly the first few times I read it, but alot happens. And in OotP we have Snape's speech during Occulumency about "People who wear their Hearts on their Sleeve," and how Voldemort makes quick work of them. That is a direct remark about Valentines:

http://www.lacellefamily.com/valentinestudy.html

. It's believed to have come from the ancient Roman holiday, Lupercalia which was
celebrated on February 15th. During Lupercalia young men would draw the name of a young lady from a jar and would pin it to his sleeve. This is where the saying "wear your heart on your sleeve" comes from. Sometimes the young man would give his chosen lady
a gift. This was in honor of the Roman goddess, Juno.

Juno is the Goddess of Marriage, married to Zeus, I believe. It is interesting to me that Snape sees all of Harry's memories, so he knows that Harry's heart is easily touched. Maybe he sees that as a weakness because it reminds him of Lily and James. Maybe at one time even Snape was that way, and Voldemort used his feelings against him.

I feel sorry for Harry. Snape thinks he's weak because of love, and Dumbledore thinks he's strong because of love.

Knowing about this Alchemist really helps me understand the 'love room." Still, it's hard to imagine what they do in there, but perhaps we can find out more!

Mercury = Unicorn blood, as they are alike in appearance.

Salt = The tears of the phoenix, as tears are comprised of water and salt.

Sulphur = Dragon blood, as cinnabar, (which means dragon's blood in Persian), is a compound of mercury and sulphur, and cinnabar was used by alchemists in their work.

This is great! You are really on to something there! I immediately thought of Voldemort drinking the unicorn blood in the first book - almost vampire-like. The centaur tells Harry that it can give life, but also carries a curse. There is someone else associated with silver blood, and that is the Slytherin ghost, the Bloody Baron. He is covered in silvery blood. I'd love to know his name and how he died.

I've got some more ideas inspired by this great thread - be back later! ;)

Iggie

September 16th, 2003, 11:31 pm

Iggie: :clap: Awesome Post! Wow!

<snip>

I've got some more ideas inspired by this great thread - be back later! ;)

Thanks sip! I can't wait to hear what else you find out in your research. If you are interested, you might look into the alchemist Trithemius, who taught both Paracelsus and Agrippa. He, too, believed in the power of love in alchemy. :)

I remembered some things last night that I forgot to mention in my previous post. (That's what happens when you have to deal with a toddler, I guess.)

In the three stages of alchemy that Ellen was discussing, alchemists sometimes used animals as symbols for the transmutation that was taking place. In this process, the raven is transmuted into the white eagle or swan, the lion into the griffin, and the snake into the winged dragon. These transmutations represented the change from the base and mundane to a higher form.

So there we have three of the houses of Hogwarts, with Hufflepuff "left over". Hufflepuff is still needed for the alchemy of the school, though, (as Venustas pointed out), it represents "earth" in the four earthly elements.

To take it one step further, I think that we can infer that Ravenclaw, Griffindor, and Slytherin are meant to act as mercury, salt, and sulphur in the alchemy of the school. So...

Mercury = Mind = Unicorn Blood = Ravenclaw

Salt = Soul = Phoenix Tears = Gryffindor

Sulphur = Body = Dragon Blood = Slytherin

If I get motivated, I might write more later on the similarities between the alchemists Paracelsus/Agrippa and Voldemort/Dumbledore, and how they might represent the Orouboros theory...with the past repeating itself. :)

Jessica

September 20th, 2003, 2:23 am

One thing I love about the series it that so many patently wrong beliefs that were adhered to in the past turn out to be true.

Alchemy is just one example of this (Astrology, Prophecies, the existence of witches and wizards in the Middle Ages). I wonder if there are any other instances of this that we are going to see in the future.

Venustas

September 20th, 2003, 9:56 pm

Silver Ink Pot- great research on Regulus and the Basilisk- I'm also interested in the silver links, along with the moon and all...

Here are some more observations that link water to death:

Death seems to be related to water (and therefore the moon, silver, etc.):
The Thestrals, who may only be seen after seeing death, are reptilian (linked with water/snakes. I also wonder about frogs/toads/Trevor- Umbridge was constantly described as a toad and we know she’s evil) Frogs are symbolically associatiated with the Devil as well as with resurection. I think that in our case it is safe to assume they are linked with evil.
Myrtle’s ghost lives in the toilet/she died in the WC/ ‘water closet’
Ghosts feel like a bucket of cold water if they pass through you
When the group was at St. Mungo's, the portrait of the healer suggested a very peculiar remedy for Ron's freckles (or spattergroit)-"take the liver of a toad, bind it tight about your throat, stand naked by the full moon in a barrell of eels' eyes--" That links two reptilian creatures with the moon.

And connecting silver:
Unicorn blood is silver, but may keep a person safe from death (at a great cost)

The moon may not represent evil- in alchemy (I think I said this earlier) the moon is linked with the sun. The moon reflects the sun, and gives no light on it's own. Voldemort (moon) is linked to Harry (sun), first through the scar, then the shared thoughts/feelings, and now through the prophecy. Luna had thrown me off before, but John Granger (whose book Sinistra reccomended) made an interesting point concerning the link between the sun and the moon. The sun, Sol, was thought of in alchemy to be the husband of the moon, Luna. Luna, Harry and Neville are all linked by death, they can all see the thestrals. It seems that Luna will play a pivotal role in the alchemy of HP.

Iggy- fantastic research on the history of alchemy and the alchemists, as well as the ideas connected to mercury, salt and sulpher. I'm really interested now in how Hufflepuff will figure in, as the left overs... well done!

dorcasderr

September 21st, 2003, 2:29 am

This has been a very enjoyable and informative thread! I was amazed recently to run across Nicholas Flamel in another novel totally unrelated to the Harry Potter series. This, of course, prompted me to a bit of research. I was indeed surprised to discover that Nicholas Flamel was a historical character and yes, as was mentioned much earlier in this thread, he lived in the 14th century nd was noted for the invention/discovery of the Philosopher's Stone. Who knew?.

[Pretty]_[Unicorn]

September 21st, 2003, 3:02 am

KUDOS! Wow that's really great idea and it really makes sense. Maybe this idea will be solved in the future books. Maybe the idea that you thought of will be brought by in book 6 or 7 and then an answer will come.

silver ink pot

September 21st, 2003, 6:16 am

I really like the idea of Harry representing the lion which transforms into the Griffon. I believe that Rowling is definitely heading down that road because of the imagery of the lion that is sprinkled everywhere in OotP. For instance, at the beginning of the book we have Harry locked up, pacing the floor of his room like a lion in a cage. Harry roars at everyone and tears things up violently. We also have the image of Luna with the Lion head.

Then at the end, we have Harry at the MOM, having unlocked so many doors, and he is attacked by Voldemort who coils around him like a big snake. I found some pictures of ancient statues of the figure of a man with a snake coiled around him, and the man has a lion's head. He is holding a key and is associated with the zodiac. This website is a little too complicated, but obviously this is meaningful in OotP. The pictures are what I think is important:

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/eighthgate.html

Next, here are some direct remarks about lions in alchemy. Carl Jung, mentioned below, is a famous psychologist who believed that all people have the same set of symbols in their dreams. Some of these statements are more psychological in nature, and certainly fit all the problems Harry is dealing with in OotP:

http://www.antlionpit.com/alchemy.html

" . . . at least one medieval alchemical text uses the lion to illustrate stages of transformation, and even depicts a lioness in a winged form. Jung and others have said these lions represent primitive, and often turbulent, psychological states in the human life cycle."

C. G. Jung: In alchemy the lion, the "royal" beast, is a synonym for Mercurius, or, to be more accurate, for a stage in his transformation. He is the warm-blooded form of the devouring, predatory monster who first appears as the dragon. Usually the lion-form succeeds the dragon's death and eventual dismemberment. (Fabricius 1976, p. 295).

Johannes Fabricius: [quoting Peter Blos] "The adolescent tries to come into
emotional contact with the passions of his infancy and early childhood, in order for them to surrender their original [energies. . .]

Marie-Louise von Franz: The alchemical "green lion" devouring the sun relates to the experience of consciousness being overwhelmed by violent, frustrated desires (often masked by depression). (Fabricius 1976, p. 105).

When you read the next quote, remember Harry's dream about Hermione and Ron wearing crowns.'

C. G. Jung: The illustrations show a furious battle between the wingless lion (red sulphur) and the winged lioness (white sulphur). The two lions are prefigurations of the royal pair, hence they wear crowns. Evidently at this stage there is still a good deal of bickering between them, and this is precisely what the fiery lion is intended to express—the passionate emotionality that precedes recognition of unconsious contents. (Fabricius 1976, p. 295).
Ron, who has the red complexion, symbolizes the red sulphur, while Hermione, with her pale face, represents the white sulphur. They are both Gryffindor Lions, and they are indeed emotional with eachother. JKR has got to be familiar with this passage from Jung - it fits so neatly with the book.

:rolleyes: :scared: :whistle:

Iggie

September 22nd, 2003, 1:55 am

Venustas: The more I think about it, the more I believe that Hufflepuff is important in terms of alchemy, and I'll explain why in this post. (Hopefully, in a coherent way. <g>)

Silver Ink Pot: Thanks for researching Jung and fitting him into this thread. I saw some pages regarding his beliefs in spiritual alchemy, but just didn't have the time to look into it. And thanks for that first link especially, because what I learned there really helps me understand something that has been puzzling me.

Okay, here's the deal. If JKR is using the animals as symbols of the alchemaical nature of the school, why is it that the dragon isn't featured somehow alongside the snake in regards to Slytherin, in the way that we have *Raven*claw and its eagle and *Gryffin*dor and its lion? And, for that matter, why is Hufflepuff represented by a badger? I think that the key may lie in something that Paracelsus said:

"...you should understand that alchemy is nothing but the art that makes the impure into the pure through fire..."

For some reason, Slytherin was working backwards in that principal. He decided to have his house built on the idea of purity, both of blood and of character. If you look at the other houses, you'll see that they not only take in mixed-blood students, but also ones who don't exactly fit the profile of the house. For example, we have Harry who could have been placed in Slytherin, Hermione in Ravenclaw, Luna in Gryffindor, Percy in Slytherin, and Neville in Hufflepuff. This "impurity" is necessary for the process, and I think that it is possible that, by design, Slytherin house is incapable of making the transmutation from the "snake" to the "winged dragon". Like in the image from the link you posted, Silver Ink Pot, the snake, (the body), needs the lion-headed man, (the spirit and the fire), to "rise above". There seems to be a dependency there that Slytherin was too proud to acknowledge.

And yet, we have the one exception (that we know of) to the Slytherin rule, Tom Riddle. Here's a guy with mixed-blood who was capable of bringing about a partial transformation within himself. But, thanks to the twisted nature and beliefs that he inherited from Slytherin, his change seems to be working in reverse. Instead of becoming "perfect", he has become something less than human, something perverse. He has become the Basilisk personified, not the dragon.

On the opposite end of the spectrum we have Hufflepuff. Of all of the houses, it is the most "impure". Each student there carries within them a balance of the other three houses, (not a lack of those characteristics), and the house is probably meant to act as a balance for the school as a whole. (That's why its animal is a badger -- territorial like a Slytherin, intelligent like a Ravenclaw, and brave like a Gryffindor.)

I suspect that Hufflepuff students might hold the greatest potential, in alchemaical terms, of all of the Hogwarts students. Just look at Neville -- by his own admission he should have been placed in Hufflepuff, and yet his character has shown the greatest development in the books. I'm going to keep my eyes on those 'Puffers, at the very least. :)

Red Herring

September 22nd, 2003, 3:26 am

Bravo! This is such a fascinating thread. I wish I had more to add!

I did notice a correlation between the crowned lions (red & white suphur) and the Red Queen / White Queen of Alice in Wonderland. Does that book relate to everything? :wow:

Venustas

September 22nd, 2003, 5:10 am

SIP- thanks for the links. The correlation between the snake and the lion seem to fit in with the connection between the sun and the moon... which brings up a lot of questions, I'll bring up one in a minute. I've also heard that Jung's theories were used a lot, especially in book 3, with Lupin (?). I don't know anything about Jung, but your research looks very interesting. I'd like to learn more about those connections.

In looking through alchemical books, I've seen a lot of images that seem to go along with HP. One of the most interesting to me is one of an animal, usually a phoenix or basilisk, in a jar, first as an egg, then breaking out of it, growing to maturity, dying, and being in the egg again. This is clearly used in the MoM when the Death Eater's head goes in the jar of the bird in it's cycle. The DE's head goes full cycle from maturity to death, and back to a baby, continuing to cycle. Hermione refers to this incident as "Time," but alchemal meanings are usually closer to "rebirth" or "regeneration." It strikes me as odd that the basilisk is used in this symbol occationally, as I relate it to death rather than rebirth. But JKR used a bird, probably refering to the phoenix (which seems to make more sense).

From Iggie
And yet, we have the one exception (that we know of) to the Slytherin rule, Tom Riddle. Here's a guy with mixed-blood who was capable of bringing about a partial transformation within himself. But, thanks to the twisted nature and beliefs that he inherited from Slytherin, his change seems to be working in reverse. Instead of becoming "perfect", he has become something less than human, something perverse. He has become the Basilisk personified, not the dragon.

On the opposite end of the spectrum we have Hufflepuff. Of all of the houses, it is the most "impure". Each student there carries within them a balance of the other three houses, (not a lack of those characteristics), and the house is probably meant to act as a balance for the school as a whole. (That's why its animal is a badger -- territorial like a Slytherin, intelligent like a Ravenclaw, and brave like a Gryffindor.)

Oh, Brilliant, Iggie! I would never have thought of that- it fits together so nicely.

On the idea of the Houses representing the 3 elements-- the Sorting hat sang it’s song about unity- the goal is to restore the last house to the 3: Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff have all been fine together, but Slytherin has to come back into the fold.

“When old Slytherin departed/ And though the fighting then died out/ He left us quite downhearted./ And never since the founders four/ Were whittled down to three / Have the Houses been united/ As they once were meant to be.”

It kind of goes along with Paracelcus and the idea of replacing the 4 elements with the three. The song goes on to say how the school has to unite from the inside or “crumble from within.” How do you suppose the three houses will be united? With the idea that Harry and Voldemort are linked like the sun and moon, or Silver Ink Pot's lion and snake, what will happen if one is killed? How is reunification possible?
Maybe then some other representative has to take the place Slytherin in order to rejoin the others- Snape? Is this where Regulus could come in?
How do you suppose Hufflepuff will play into this?

silver ink pot

September 23rd, 2003, 12:58 am

Venustas: You and I are so in-tune on this subject that I can't believe it! :agree:

However, I am sure you understand Alchemy better than I do - I get lost in all the terminology. But I'm trying to understand it more on the basis of real chemistry, or which there is basis, and also figuratively, as it is used in Psychology.

I found a great quote from Paracelsus that I DO understand. This fits Harry perfectly don't you think?

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/parace.htm

" . . .a man clings all his days to what he received in his youth; and my youth was coarse as compared to that of the subtle, pampered, and over-refined. For those who are raised in soft clothes and in women's apartments and we who are brought up among the pine-cones have trouble in understanding one another well." (from Paracelsus: Selected Writings, ed. by Jolande Jacobi, 1951)

Dumbledore made the decision to raise Harry in Muggle Land instead of in the Wizarding World. Harry's life has been full of hardship and hard work. He certainly has not been pampered, but brought up to be tough, living "among the pine cones" (love that phrase!).

Paracelsus was an alchemist, but he made real discoveries of medical importance. He hated the barbaric medicine of his day so much that he burned books which he thought led to infection and disease. He was really more of a philosopher, and believed that herbal medicine should be studied. He was difficult and hard to get along with, but he seems to have been a genius!

Let's see . . . who does that remind me of? Who is JKR leading us to when she makes Peeves throw Paracelsus on someone's head?

Snape, of course. He has the lab. He has the book of Herbal remedies and the plants and stones in the potions: Hellebore and Moonstone in the Draught of Peace (see the Neville and Gum Thread!). He doesn't go in for the "wand-waving" but the careful following of ingredients and steps - very scientific. And his sunny disposition (just kidding) is alot like the historical Paracelsus.

Also, Snape has a philosophy towards Harry very close to Paracelsus! That same philosophy is quite close to the sorting Hat's references to Hufflepuff, as well! In Chapter 21 of PoA, page 387, American:

"And yet, is it good for him (Harry) to be given so much special treatment? personally, I try and treat him like any other student."

Then he goes into a list of Harry's rule-breaking and says he should be suspended. When you think of all of Snape's detentions, they all entail cleaning, scraping, nasty chores, cleaning the trophy room, cleeaning the bedpans at the hospital. All very down-to-earth!

Also, if we talk about unity and who is least like his own house, we have to look closer at Snape. Yes, he "favors" Slytherin. Yet he is loyal to Dumbledore and Minerva, both of whom are attacked in OotP by those loyal to Voldemort!

Snape is In Slytherin, but not OF Slytherin. He doesn't even wear his own house colors. He wears black and white, very "badger-like" colors. He certainly "badgers" Harry. In the boggart scene in PoA, he comes out of the cupboard dressed like Neville's Grandmother. and though he is wearing a green dress (Slytherin Colors) he is holding a big "red bag" - which is an anagram for "badger."

Finally, Snape's skin is described as "sallow", which means "yellow." So with his black clothes and "sallow" skin, he has an aspect of the Hufflepuff house colors, black and yellow! I think Snape, who also lives down in the dungeon, just like the Hufflepuffs, could unite the houses. Some of the children of Death Eaters, such as Crabbe and Goyle, see him as a father figure. Maybe even Draco does. He can influence them to see Voldemort as a threat to them as well as Muggles. Of course, this is all theoretical, and I'm sure many people will disagree with this.

Now, maybe Venustas can tell me what "black and yellow" represent in Alchemy! Because I just can't find an answer! Is black "iron" as in strength?

Iggie

September 23rd, 2003, 1:24 am

"How is reunification possible?"

Good question. Part of me wants to say, "Beats me...", but that would put a quick kabosh on the thread now, wouldn't it? <g> The best that I can do is to look at it from the point of view of an alchemist.

I would imagine that an alchemist would look at the process as a whole and try to single out where his "experiment" is going wrong. So, if the other elements other than Slytherin don't have a problem with uniting towards a common goal, then the problem must lie in Slytherin itself. From there, it would be necessary to determine if there is a problem with the element in question. If Slytherin, as I pointed out before, is corrupting the process by only allowing the "pure" into their midst, then perhaps the sollution is to force Slytherin into accepting the "impure". However, I really can't see how that would help in the long run, as the corrupting influence would still be within the house. As long as there are students whose families adhere to the "pure-blood" ideology, the poisonous nature will remain. Removing the house altogether is out of the question, as it is necessary for the alchemy of the school, and even if you do remove Slytherin, which serves as the force that the other houses unite against, you'll still have the rivalry and division between the remaining houses.

Which brings me to a different problem. I wonder if Slytherin is just one example of something larger going wrong. When I look at the school, even in the grand scheme of alchemy, all I can see is a group of houses that have evolved into a form of a class system, not unlike the feudal system in place when the school was founded. There is the aristocracy in Slytherin, the knighthood in Gryffindor, the intellectual class in Ravenclaw, and the working class of Hufflepuff. If you take it one step downward, you even have the slavery of the house elves. It's a mirroring of the wizarding society and its inequities, and possibly makes the alchemaical process as a whole corrupt by taking away the balance necessary to the equation.

So what is the solution? Is Hogwarts nothing but an experiment gone wrong, or is there a way to fix it? Maybe the key lies in someone like Dumbledore, with his attitude that everyone is equal in Hogwarts. It's possible that's why he left his work in physical alchemy and took on the job at the school, because he saw the flaws in the system and how those flaws keep perpetuating the inequities in wizarding society. There's also Hermione, who is on a certain level aware of the imbalance within the school. As annoying as the "Hermione and the house elves" story line gets, and as misguided as she appears to be, it's obvious that her mission will prove to be important to the story line in the future.

So, to sum up, I don't know if the final solution would lie in restructuring the school, or if Dumbledore's influence will ultimately change the underlying belief systems in place, or if there is something else that I'm missing completely. (Of course, the latter is quite possible.) <g>

flibbertigibbet

September 23rd, 2003, 3:08 am

I haven't read a thread this interesting in a LONG time. Iggie - your last post raises so many good points about the books as a whole! I wish I could reply with something more intelligent but I need some time to digest it all and maybe learn a bit more about alchemy before I can be up to par with all of the posts here :) So I'll stick with a few comments I had while reading through --

When it’s washed it is a mirror- I would bet that Sirius’s mirror is going to be used yet, and it sounds like it will be between Harry and Regulus- it just needs to be Reparo-ed :-) --

Sorry to be nitpicky, but isn't Regulus dead? The Lexicon lists him as living until about 1980. Sirius was the last of the Blacks.

Basil Valentine, not featured on a card, published the twelve keys of alchemy, and believed that love played a crucial role in spiritual alchemy. (The "love" room in the DoM?)

So could each of the 12 rooms in the DoM represent one of the keys of alchemy?

In the three stages of alchemy that Ellen was discussing, alchemists sometimes used animals as symbols for the transmutation that was taking place. In this process, the raven is transmuted into the white eagle or swan, the lion into the griffin, and the snake into the winged dragon. These transmutations represented the change from the base and mundane to a higher form.
Hmm... Cho's a Ravenclaw and her Patronus is a swan. Significant?

One thing I love about the series it that so many patently wrong beliefs that were adhered to in the past turn out to be true.

Alchemy is just one example of this (Astrology, Prophecies, the existence of witches and wizards in the Middle Ages). I wonder if there are any other instances of this that we are going to see in the future.

I agree! That's part of the fun of the series - I love the passage where Harry is reading about the witch-burnings :)

On the idea of the Houses representing the 3 elements-- the Sorting hat sang it’s song about unity- the goal is to restore the last house to the 3: Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff have all been fine together, but Slytherin has to come back into the fold.
I really like that idea. Does this mean Harry's entire purpose in life is to try to restore balance to the wizarding world by uniting Slytherin with the rest of the houses?

Venustas

September 23rd, 2003, 6:21 am

Silver Ink Pot- Yay! I'm glad we understand each other so well-- I've been trying to talk to some of my friends about these ideas, but am usually met with either silently nodding heads or glazed-over eyes after about 2 minutes. Hm. Anyway.
I really liked the "among the pine cones" idea- I wonder why Snape keeps trying to give Harry the mundane detentions, like you mentioned. He should especcially know now after shuffling through Harry's thoughts that Harry hadn't been pampered with the Dursleys. It seems kind of strange. I'm sure I can find many theories about that on one of the many Snape threads, though... back to alchemy-

-Yes, Paracelcus does sound like our dear Potions Master, now that you mention it.
- Ha! "red bag"= "Badger"- wow.

I think I gave a disclaimer on my first post about my knowledge of alchemy- it's zip. As I was reading through OotP I vaguely wondered if there was some theme of fire and water- and then made the connection to Paracelcus and the elements. I started out looking up "alchemy" in the family encyclopedia, and have since looked through a few other books, but really, it seems as though you and Iggie have at least as much background as I do, and probably more.
It's fun to learn, though, and to compare ideas- especially when they click with others you guys bring up.

Black and Yellow. I'm really not sure, but this is what I've found on some colors:

The four stages of the process [to purification] were signified by different colours, as follows: black (guilt, origin, latent forces) for "prime matter" (a symbol of the soul in its original condition); white (minor work, first transmutation, quicksilver); red (sulphur, passion); and finally gold. (Cirlot, Symbolism, p. 6) (exerpt from The Hidden Key to Harry Potter, by John Granger)

I don't know now what yellow means, or the combination, but the black sure seems to fit Snape.

Iggie- Thanks for not taking the easy way out! Your explanation is very valuable. I think you've definately got something with the houses mirroring wizard society, as with Hermione working against this process with her Elf projects.
The reunification still bugs me- JKR made such a big deal of it with the whole multi-page sorting hat song, and then didn't seem to give us many clues about the posibilities for reunification (could easily be, too, that I'm just not picking them up). It does seem, though, that alchemy will be instrumental as the school goes through some sort of purification process on it's way to reunification. You've given us a lot to think about.

Flibbertigibbet- no, no, you're not being nitpicky! You're right; there's been considerable speculation on some other threads that Regulus is still alive, and I guess I got a little carried away...
However, dead or alive, there is so much behind Regulus' name, as SIP has mentioned, that I'm positive we'll be seeing (or atleast hearing) a lot more of him.

Does this mean Harry's entire purpose in life is to try to restore balance to the wizarding world by uniting Slytherin with the rest of the houses?
wow. Enitire? I don't know about entire, but yes, I think that will be one of the things that he will/should have a hand in. It would make sense alchemicly, I guess, as he achieves his own purification in the next two books, he would help in the process for the houses. What do you think his life's purpose is?

In other ideas... I ran across an image of the Caducus today. I think Ellen brought it up first- relating it to the snitch, it looks like a golden ball with wings. But that's only part of the Caducus- the snitch-like part is connected to a long golden rod, around which are intertwined two snakes- it's the medical symble we see everywhere. Anyway, it reminded me of SIP's image of the lionhead and the snakes. Here's a link to some info- I'm not sure how sound it is... http://www.corpsmanup.com/caduceus.htm#Aesculapian%20Snake
I also randomly found a few other things that seem as though they might tie into HP, the words were so close, I thought it at least worth mentioning...
Cadmus/Cadumus- was a guy in mythology who was sent in search of his sister, Europa, whom Jupiter had carried away... to make a long story short, it was he who killed Draco the serpent of Mars, and founded Thebes with the five warriors who survived. www.emufarm.org/~cmbell/myth/draco.html
It seems that the wizarding world is definatly in for a new order after the war... and if the myth holds out through the story, I'd bet Neville will be one of the 5 to found the new order of things (Ne-new, ville-village)
And lastly, Caducus- latin, means 'destined to die'- I keep on coming across ideas that seem to lead to Harry's death as well as Voldemort's. But, with all the imagery of resurection and rebirth, I think that perhaps Harry will die with Voldemort, but that it will not be a final death (despite what Sirius's death has set up for us).
Whew... that's long and untidy. Sorry if the last bit got off alchemy... you can ignore it if it doesn't make sense to our conversation...

HPDukeFan

September 23rd, 2003, 10:35 pm

I'm not sure if I should post this here, but this thread is the most intellectual that I've ever read so I thought I'd give it a shot...

I have a theory, and I'm not going to say right now because I want to know if this is the right place or if any of you know anything about this first.

I read somewhere a LONG time ago (and I don't remember where which is killing me), about a mythological reference to some guy in Greek mythology whose head was on fire. He was also killed by a silver hand. The problem is I don't remember either the guy's name or the story or anything. So if anyone could help me out, that would be great because then I could do some research and actually present my theory in a semi-intelligent fashion.

And sorry, I know this thread is for alchemy, not mythology, but there has been some mentioning of it and I thought y'all might know.

Venustas

September 24th, 2003, 4:32 am

HPDukeFan, I think we could use a whole other thread for mythology-there are lots of myths and bits and pieces that JKR uses, the ideas could definatley use their own thread... I'm *trying* to link everything back to alchemy (there are so many ways it could go).
But please post your theory soon, I'm eager to hear it!

Edit:
Mythology and Alchemy do tend to tie in- silver and the sun-head sound like they would- I don't know anything about that myth, though (but I'm interested ;) )

Ellen

September 24th, 2003, 4:39 am

The information on gum came from A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery by Abrahams. Chemically, the gum represents and adhesive that helps bind two materials together for the creation of a new one, annihilating the 'parent' materials in the process to create the 'child.'

I've gone through a number of books and websites at this point, but a general summary of how the four elements were thought to influence personality (among other things) can be found at http://www.mtsn.org.uk/staff/staffpages/cer/elizabethan_world_picture/ptolemaic_universe_3.htm. An overview of the seven stages can be found at http://www.spiritofra.com/alchemy.htm.

As for Regulus, he's thought to be dead, but his name and its potential symbolism hint at someone interesting enough that I hope he turns out to be another character who faked his death. However, since the regulus in alchemy is the 'purer' part of a material, I'm not sure if this would be a good thing given what we've seen about 'purity' in the Black family (although it does explain why his parents thought he was the better son). On the other hand, if Regulus is alive and in hiding, I think it's more likely he's been living among Muggles rather than as Stubby. Besides, the regulus is the nonvolatile half. Given what Sirius was like in volatile mode, that may mean he's an easygoing guy.

As for the caduceus, the head of it represented the stone. The caduceus itself was the wand held by Hermes (who was associated with alchemy, the hermitic art, as Mercurius). It was associated with healing in part by being compounded with the single serpent staff originally associated . . . with another myth I'm going to skip at this point. However, it was also associated with healing because Hermes was the god who led the deceased into the land of the dead, hence the idea that he had power over death as well.

I did read that in alchemy, the two serpents were thought to represent the opposing forces that must come together to achieve the 'great work,' as creating the stone was known. Clearly, this could be connected to Harry and Voldemort (and certain objects in Dumbledore's office). However, the alchemists represented them as twisting around three times before reaching the head of the caduceus. Each of these times they crossed over was thought to represent a joining of sorts in the even numbered seven steps. But, because one of the snakes was considered to be male and the other female, these were also used to represent different romantic relationships. I'm not clear on how these relationships were supposed to be different, but two were often represented by animal pairs - the rooster and the hen for one and the two lions (both red in Abrahams' Imagery [red lions represented a volatile process]). The third was the Lunar Queen and the Solar King. I have no idea in what way Ginny and Neville can be chickens. Maybe they're a different animal pair I haven't read yet, but they fit.

Whew. Almost done. About silver. Silver, in the books, is associated with Slytherin. Clearly, this gives us a bad impression. It is also, by being associated with the night and the moon, vaguely sinister.

However, it is also associated with Luna and Dumbledore. It represents purity, too, and is the last stage before gold. Part of the silver stage is also connected with healing powers (Rowling has to know about it because her summary of the ashwinder read like a slight spoof of it, the silver serpent that appears from the white fire and has power to heal all ills).

Slytherin is associated with the element of water, fiery Gryffindor's opposite. Water and night are all associated with the unconscious. This means it also connects with Luna's prime strength, the area's of intuition and imagination. The basic psychobabble answer is that the unconscious is a fearful place when you don't want to deal with what's there, but you have to come to terms with it to get through.

Harry has to deal with some of the less pleasant truths about himself (he has a bad temper, for example) and people close to him (like James). I'm guessing that he has to come to terms with these things before he can come to terms with the good that may or may not be hiding in Slytherin.

silver ink pot

September 24th, 2003, 6:08 am

Wonderful stuff here, Venustas, Ellen, and everyone! I am fascinated by alchemy all of a sudden! Although, when I try to read some of the texts I get lost. :whistle: :scared: :rolleyes:

But I want to add a little to what Ellen said about the water imagery. Water is associated with the Astrology sign of Cancer which is ruled by the moon. It is the sign of emotions, dreams, food, family, babies, motherhood, memories, family trees, and antiques. Grimmauld Place is such a "Cancer" environment, and add to that the fact that Lupin is living there - a creature ruled by the moon. And you have "Moody" - which sounds emotional, and Sirius, with his huge family tree and his "sulky" moods. Molly is always cooking and worring about her children. And there are all those antique relics lying around! The Pensieve scenes and all the dream scenes - very "moon" oriented and mysterious.

In contrast, you have the "Sun" imagery of Dumbledore's office, Harry staying up till sunrise more than once, Harry meeting Cho in the Owlery tower first thing in the morning. There you have the sun coming up contrasted to the owls, symbols of the night and the moon. Right before this scene, Peeves is looking to drop the head of Paracelsus on someone, which Sir Nicholas says is not "subtle." That is obviously a clue to notice this sun/moon alchemical imagery!

Harry is moving constantly between morning and night, waking and dreaming, reality and illusion, present and memory. I'm sure this is part of his maturing through the alchemical process: "Sol" or "Sun" mingling with "Luna" or "Moon." I think the most meaningful scene at the end of OotP is when Harry storms out after McGonagall's return. He goes outside into the sunlight, yet is unable to shrug off his problems and feelings just by walking around. He feels "Marked" and stays outside till it gets dark - that is significant! He has tears on his face - remember before that he hates to see Dumbledore's 'weakness' as he cries? Yet, now he is able to cry himself. When he goes inside again, there is Luna! Talking to her makes him "react" to her problems with pity. Harry has always had sympathy, but now he has more understanding!

All this talk about "heads on fire", the "head of the caduceus", and the "head" as the "stone" is interesting. I don't usually talk about the movies on these book threads, but I think we can get a clue of where JKR might be going by looking at the way the script is written for the movies. In many, many scenes in the movie of Chamber of Secrets we see water on the floor, with Harry running through it. When he finally gets to the Chamber in the movie, it is different from the book. After Harry gets the sword of Gryffindor, he literally climbs onto the stone "Head" of Slytherin, and kills the Basilisk while there! So, if we assume that Rowling approved this scene, it is almost like the caduceus - Slytherin's statue representing the serpents and Harry up above, like the winged stone. The more I think about the way it is presented in the movie, the more I think Slytherin is not "evil" but a part of Harry which will help him reach his maturity. Harry is the key to bringing Slytherin back into harmony with the other houses, I'm sure of it.

Red Herring

September 24th, 2003, 9:37 pm

I'm currently rereading PoA (about a paragraph at a time, thanks to real life butting in), and because of the bit about snakes being the lower form of dragons, the following passage jumped out at me. This is right before the final Quidditch game...

PoA (Scholastic) p302-3
Harry slept badly. First he dreamed that he had overslept, and that Wood was yelling, "Where were you? We had to use Neville instead!" Then he dreamed that Malfoy and the rest of the Slytherin team arrived for the match riding dragons. He was flying at breakneck speed, trying to avoid a spurt of flames from Malfoy's steed's mouth, when he realized he has forgotten his Firebolt. He fell through the air and woke with a start.

How does this fit into the theory (or not)?

Venustas

September 25th, 2003, 3:55 am

Ellen, thanks so much for those links- I've looked forever for a simple explanation of the 7 steps.

Some of the steps really reminded me of particular characters- Luna and her mother especially in Distillation, with it's concentration on science and experiments, as well as love. Luna also seems to be removed from mundane things, not really caring what people think. I think Trelawny somewhere connected Harry to Saturn because of his tragic past and dark hair (?) Could she have been referring to Calcination? Do you think that each book represents a stage, or are the steps between and together in several books? Or do they all have to cometogether in the end? Or am I completly off and completely not understandable (I'm sure there's a better phrase for that...)

The more I hear about these steps, and all the info y'all offer, the more I wonder about the role of death. We know that avoiding it is Voldemort's main objective. Everything he does is in order to gain immortality. Is he going about it the wrong way? How is his journey compared to Harry's? He obviously has immortality as his main goal, and Harry doesn't- do one's motives make a difference in purification? I would think that they would. Can Harry achieve purification without having it as a goal?

Also on death- Hermes was thought to have had power over death, or to lead the dead (associated with the caduceus). Is the caduceus part of the ultimate goal/purification? If so, does purification, or reaching the final step ensure immortality? What does reaching the final step mean? Is it different psychologically than physically? Is one way better than another? How can we expect it to go in these books? Have Dumbledore or Flamel achieved this perfection through the stone? Why would Flamel die, then? Assuming that Luna's mother was in the Distillation process when she died, did she attain perfection through death? Is anything supposed to happen after death for those who reached the last step?

Oh, so many questions! It's depressing to have all the questions and none of the answers (I can just hope that they will end up to be constructive).

Silver Ink Pot- Thats really interesting imagery of Harry ON Slytherin's head when he kills the basilisk. You think that Slytherin may not be evil, but that Harry is the key to bring Slytherin back into harmony with the other houses- I see what you're getting at, but I still see Slytherin as being a little evil- he did, afterall, put a basilisk down below the school to kill muggle-blooded students. But besides that, I do agree that he may not be "all" bad, and that he has been and will be instrumental in Harry's growing in maturity. He was, at one time, the best friend of Gryffindor. I wonder if (assuming he's actually still alive) Regulus represents the essence of Slytherin, in it's actual "pure" form, rather than the distorted "pureness" that Slytherin house and Voldemort now have.

The elements in the scenes are very, very interesting to me. I haven't read the series from beginning since learning of the alchemy imagery, but it seems to give compelling scenes even more interest and meaning.

Red Herring- great quote! "We had to use Neville instead!"- wow. That did not have the same meaning before reading OotP, but now.. wow. It really does seem to go along with the transmutations Iggie was talking about. I'm sure it's highly symbolic (as most of his dreams are) but that's about all I've got... Iggie?

Jaded_Wanderer

September 25th, 2003, 4:05 am

Sorry, can't figure out how to quote people (everything's changed!! lol)....anyways, Venustas said:

"When it’s washed it is a mirror- I would bet that Sirius’s mirror is going to be used yet, and it sounds like it will be between Harry and Regulus- it just needs to be Reparo-ed"

Although I believe that the mirrors are going to become significant, I can also think of another mirror which could relate to things: The Mirror of Erised - it shows one "the deepest and most desperate desires of [their] heart" - a person's purest and most unconscious thoughts/feelings/beliefs. I really don't know much about alchemy, but from what I've read here, this might fit in somehow with the moon was it, that represented the subconscious? I'm really not sure actually how it fits, but I think it probably does somehow.....

Ellen

September 25th, 2003, 4:23 am

As far as death goes, I think Dumbledore explained it to Harry in the first book. Immortality, in the end, is not a good thing. His discussion of it reminded me of some things I once read on the 'fortunate fall,' as it's sometimes called (the POV that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing in the long run rather than a bad one). Essentially that, in this life, we're cut off from God but this is good in that it gives us a time to deal with our mistakes rather than face immediate judgement for them. Being mortal is also good because the state of being cut off from God is not eternal.

Voldemort's attempts to escape death have trapped him more and more in a state of living death. Death, to the alchemists, represented the ultimate form of corruption (one of the reasons Ravenclaw's symbol isn't a carrion eating raven - alchemists weren't too fond of the bird). In this, Voldemort represents the black phase as a chosen state of corruption rather than the way it seems to be for Snape, a part of his life he is trying to deal with (the positive form). Voldemort would rather survive in any form, no matter how gruesome or degraded (and no matter what the cost) rather than face the unknown. At a guess, then, immortality in Rowling's alchemy is based on accepting death.

Oh, and Nuada was a Celtic god with a silver hand. I haven't found a reference to him facing anyone with a burning head, but he did face Balor, a sort of personification of death deity, whose eye could kill with a glance. Perhaps there's a myth where this is referred to as a burning eye? Very Sauron like, in that case.

Constant Vigilance

September 25th, 2003, 9:43 pm

This is a very great thread and has given me a lot of ideas.

Venustas: you say the basilisk is a simbol of death, yes it is, but it's also a snake and snakes are a simbol of eternal life (that's why Voldemort likes them). Snakes shed old skin and are made jounger again. This is happens in the epic of Gilgamesh, one of the world's oldest pices of literature. Gilgamesh fears death and seeks eternal life and finds it, but due to a fluke the snake gets it and sheds skin.
Silver Ink Pot explained the realtion between Snape and Hufflepuf. That was great! It explains a question I've had for some time. Herbology and Potions are the two big classes where you don't need wands (divination is trash and we don't see mugglestudies or aritmancy). Neville is good at both (he does well at the OWLS because Snape's not there to bug him). This 2 classes are taught by the heads of Hufflepuff and Slither, so they are important to the houses.
If we think alchemy is important in the books we should look up the potions class. It's the alchemy class! We alredy know it's a hard work class (again hufflepuff) because of the "no silly wand play" Snape talks about. It's also an explanation to why Snape is not DADA teacher. He has not evolved enough to teach that (I would be scared of him teaching DADA as of now).
What is exactly the potions class: a Laboratory. To alchemists the laboratory is the place were you PRAY and WORK. Its made up of LABOR and ORATORIUM.
The work part is fine, Harry and Neville have worked like house elves here but we haven't seen the praying part. (unless Neville prays to God to send seven plauges on Snape). But I think we'll see something like prayer. Alchemy is very spiritual, that's a way of seen inmortality: spiritual excellence. And the HP books are a "coming of age story" so Harry will show some spiritual advancement in the 7 books.
I think this books forces Harry to make spiritual questions that he will have to answer with the help of his potions (alchemy) master (not proffessor). I see occlumency as a first step. Snape's teaching Harry stuff about him he does not like, gives him enlightment. But I'm waiting for Snape to learn a bit himself. We have noticed he's no Yoda.
Why do I think JK Rowling digs the spirituality of alchemy? Because OotP ends with Harry thinking about death for the first time. Anybody noticed he is completely ignorant of the subyect when he talks to Sir Nick? (I also think it shows Harry is an atheist because nobody has taugh hin anything spiritual). This is odd, JKR has avoided spiritual themes in HP (to avoid the book burners, no doubt) so it must mean something important. There's to much on Voldemort looking for eternal life, Dumbledore thinking of death as an adventure to no get really spiritual and fast.
On Paralcelsus (one of Victor Frankeinstein's reads, he made a Humunculus, an artificial little man) his name means "bigger than celsus" a greek sage. It was a name he chose for himself, he was definitively ambitious like a slitheryn. On Peeves hurling his statue, Paralcelsus died (I think some say maybe murdered, not sure) falling of a staircase.
If you enyoyed this thread remember to see the info on Mugglenet on name origins on Nick Flammel (there's a cool old story on him) and Voldemort, so you can know of the famous Voldemortist, a real wizard who wanted the Philosofer's stone.
As a last note, for the fans of alchemy, China also had alchemists that wanted eternal life.
(sorry for my english spelling)

Sabine

September 25th, 2003, 10:04 pm

I really enjoy reading in this thread and following all your links.

Thanks for all the effort you all put in here.

Sabine

P.S.: Off topic:

so you can know of the famous Voldemortist, a real wizard who wanted the Philosofer's stone.

I'm sorry to spoil that for anyone, but I think there has never been a Voldemortist. I did a very careful search on that one... and I found nothing to proove that he ever existed. All one can find are HP-related sites.

Constant Vigilance

September 25th, 2003, 11:11 pm

Sabine is right on Voldemortist, it seems to be a fake rumor and it has given some problems to arturian scholars tring to pin point the source. I feel dumb! I fell completely like Hermione for Lockhart's books! I'm emailing mugglenet to complain. Just in case I'm going to ask an arturian enthusiast I know. Nice work Sabine!
I looked up Flamel, He's real!

silver ink pot

September 26th, 2003, 7:22 am

Constant Vigilance: Awesome and Awe-inspiring post! :clap:

We all know that Harry is missing something in Potions class! On a mundane level, he doesn't pay enough attention to details. He doesn't read the directions correctly. He is watching Snape or listening to Draco, and he gets distracted.

He is missing the Zen of potion-making. He needs to become more involved with the act itself, and then, I think, that would be the sort of prayer or worship that he is missing.

When you think about making an important potion, one that might save someone from death or poisoning, you would have to be prayerful over it. You would have to have more respect for that potion and the act of making it than Harry has.

I really dig this idea, Constant Vigilance, because when I project what might happen to Harry in the next two books, I often imagine him having to make a potion to save someone important. He might need to save someone's life, even Snape's life, and to make a mistake would be the end for everyone. I bet Harry could put a little prayer into it then!

But all your observations are wonderful! I love the idea of herbology and potions being connected. Of course some plants are associated with alchemy. In the movie version of CoS, Madame Sprout and Madame Pomfrey are given credit for making the potion from the Mandrakes. In the book, it is Snape, because when Lockhart offers to make the potion, Snape argues with him - page 144, American, Chapter 9. This is interesting because it is hinting that JKR does feel the connection between the two houses and is letting it come out in the movies.

I found this on a great website about magical plants:

http://www.magialuna.net/l.html

Alchemilla is a patron herb of Alchemists. Lady's Mantle increases the working power of any type of Magick. In ancient times Lady's Mantle was said to contain the ability to transmute the formulae of an Alchemist. Because this herb is an aphrodisiac you can use it in any love potion. Collect the pollen from the flowers, or the roots may be dried and powdered, or (not as potent) you can dry and powder the leaves for Magickal use. You may also collect the early morning dew from its leaves for use in any Magickal working. One may think of Lady's Mantle as having the ability to add a metaphysical exclamation mark to one's Magick.

Lily is ruled by La Luna, The Moon, and is an herb of fertility and protection. The white Lily is associated with Eostara, renewal, and rebirth. The Lily has strong associations with fertility goddesses. To dream of Lilies in Spring foretells marriage, happiness and prosperity; to dream of them in Winter indicates frustration of hopes, or the premature death of a loved one. Some use the Lily to break Love Spells.

And here is a wonderful picture of an "Alchemy Lab"! Snape would feel right at home here:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/alchlab.html

Finally, here is the website of our dreams! I stumbled across this and it has tons and tons of links to Alchemical websites, including many that have to do with plants.

http://www.geocities.com/babech.geo/home.htm

Constant Vigilance

September 26th, 2003, 5:44 pm

I read the link on alchemy and lions posted by silver ink spot. It was really interesting. The image of the crowned male and female lions fighting really seems apropiate for HP.
Could Jo Rowling be familiar with it? Maybe because it fits descriptions of the book. Maybe she knows it or maybe she has been influenced by other authors who did know it. Maybe it just fits because of the archetype theory that says we can explain world ideas with archetypes, images known to all cultures. This lion thing was used to explain psicological development, and that is a big theme for Harry, because the series is a coming of age story (remember JKR does not like Peter Pan). So even if Jo Rowling never heard of Jung, it still helps to understand Harry Potter because they are after the same thing: understanding the psicological evolution or growing up of a person that tries to deal with his past.
So are the fighting lions Ron and Hermione.? Probably, but they could apply to other things. Johannes Fabricius (he is cited along Jung) says this is a mother-father image. The "origin" of a person and that sets the stage for development. Well, Ron looks like a ****** of lion all right but he's no father figure. He's like a brother, since he's got the normal family life Harry wants, maybe he is a figure of what Harry lacks, or maybe what he wants to be, or a part of him that has not come to terms with his slytherin side. This is complex! So Ron could (maybe) be a simbol for Harry. A Ron/Hermione union could be a simbol for a totally developed Harry in balance with himself. (Im on an amateur jungian analisys roll here!) Since Harry is having such a complex adolescence, the Ron/Hermione conflict (like the male female lion conflict) could be a symbol of his current internal conflict, the seed of what he will become as an adult. (I hope this makes sence, I swear I'm thinking this over with out any allucinatory drugs).

So theoretically Harry's life looks like a lion figtht. Ok. What if the lion fight is about parental figures. I guess Harry's mom figure is Molly Weasly. (On some level Hermione may be a mom figure, I don't know)His "fammily" figure could be the Molly/Arthur mariage. His Daddy figure I think was Sirius Black (and could now be Lupin). They are all Griffindor lions, and Molly has a fights with Arthur an Serius. The fight in St Mungos over "alternative medicine" (stiches) was maybe similar to the JULE BRAWL in GoF. Sirius and Molly also fight. Maybe I just see what I want to see and this is just crazy. Maybe this love/hate relationships are a symbol for Harry's jourey of self discovery.
The text on alchemical lions talks a lot of psycollogical development by contact with the passions of childhood. Ok, Harry is clearly in contact with the passions of his early childhood. First: mirror of Erised, Second: the dementors do a sycoanalisis of sorts on Harry, they bring back a represed memory (an audio memory of his mom's death screams) that finally leads him to a healing process: the Patronus (contact with dad) Third: occlumency where Harry gets childhood dreams of perfect parents shatered.
When Snape talks of controling emotions, is he talking of this? Is Harry's peace with his personal history of loss the key to beat Voldemort? If so, I want somebody else to take the same journey. If Snape does not "wear his heart on his sleeve", where is it? Ah, the compelling PERSUES EVANS theory. I need to know more about this because I have a VERY SCARY OFF TOPIC THEORY. Petunia Evans knows about the wizard world. She knows about dementors, a "horrible boy" told her (I don't have my book here to do exact quotes). Snape was a horrible boy and an expert on dementors and dark stuff. Now that's a possible relationship that could be embitering and cause denial of the wizard world or hatred of Harry. In any case, Snape's grudge on Harry is childish trauma, he has to grow out of it to find his place in the HP world.

silver ink pot

September 26th, 2003, 6:59 pm

. (Im on an amateur jungian analisys roll here!) Since Harry is having such a complex adolescence, the Ron/Hermione conflict (like the male female lion conflict) could be a symbol of his current internal conflict, the seed of what he will become as an adult. (I hope this makes sence, I swear I'm thinking this over with out any allucinatory drugs).

:love: Constant Vigilance! Just keep rolling! And keep Rowling! Now I am free associating without drugs, myself!

I totally agree with your views on the "bickering" parental figures! Many people on many threads here have commented about the Molly/Sirius argument, that they sound like a divorced couple who can't agree. They are symbolic of two extremems of thought. Now that Sirius is gone, and Harry is estranged more from Dumbledore and certainly from Snape, who will his Father-Figure be? There's Lupin, Moody, Arthur, and perhaps someone new.

I love all your theories! Oh my gosh, your post made me go get my copy of Memories, Dreams, and Reflections, Carl Jung's autobiography. It is a difficult, dense book, and I haven't read it since my college days, but just flipping through it I realized that at a certain point in his life, he began to seriously study Alchemy. In his chapter called, "The Work," he says that he had a dream of someone locking him in a garden with shelves and shelves of ancient books which he was compelled to study. He acted on this dream and began to study Alchemy, and at first he was like us - baffled by alot of the language. But he was fascinated by Alchemy and Religion, and began to think of Christ as the Sorcerer's Stone. However, he realized it could apply to many things, and here is a dream he relates that should sound seriously familiar if someone has just read OotP.

You'll like this, and it confirms to me that JKR is definitely familiar with Jung:

I dreamed once more that my house had a large wing which I had never visited. I resolved to look at it, and finally entered. I came to a big double door. When I opened it, I found myself in a room set up as a laboratory. This was my father's workroom. However, he was not there. On shelves along the walls stood hundreds of bottles containing every imaginable sort of fish. I was astonished: so now my father was going in for ichthyology!

As I stood there and looked around I noticed a curtain which bellied out from time to time, as though a strong wind were blowing. Suddenly Hans, a young man from the country, appeared. I told him to look and see whether a window were open in the room behind the curtain. He went, and was gone for some time. When he returned, I saw an expression of terror on his face. He said only, "Yes, there is something. It's haunted in there!"

Then I myself went, and found a door which led to my mother's room. There was no one in it. The atmosphere was uncanny. The room was very large, and suspended from the ceiling were two rows of five chests each, hanging about two feet above the floor. They looked like small garden pavilions, each about six feet in area, and each containing two beds. I knew that this was the room where my mother, who in reality had long been dead, was visited, and that she had set up these for visiting spirits to sleep. They were spirits who came in pairs, ghostly married couples, so to speak, who spent the night or even the day there.

Opposite my mother's room was a door. I opened it and entered a vast hall; it reminded me of the lobby of a large hotel. It was fitted out with easy chairs, small tables, pillars, sumptuous hangings, etc. a brass band was playing loudly . . .

No one would have guessed that behind this loud facade was the other world, also located in the same building. The dream-image of the lobby was . . . a caricature . . . of worldly joviality. . . . Behind it lay something quite different, . . . the fish laboratory and the hanging pavilions for spirits. Both were awesome places in which a mysterious silence prevailed. In them I had the feeling: Here is the dwelling of night; whereas the lobby stood for the daylight world and its superficiality.

. . . Something had remained unfinished and was still with my parents; that is to say, it was still latent in the unconscious and hence reserved for the future. I was being reminded that I had not yet dealt with the major concern of philosophical alchemy.

:wow: Wow! This is so reminiscent of the MOM, with the cheery statues in the lobby, and the strange Department of Mysteries upstairs. Day and Night. Harry is lured to the night side by Voldemort, but then Harry sheds "light" on the Dark Lord and the DEs by luring them into the lobby, where they are "seen" by all. Especially since the prophecies are involved, I think you can safely say that Harry's purpose in knowing about this place lies in the future, and it is involved with his parents, even though they are dead! I think the vision of the Mother and the sleeping spirits may be a scene we see in one of the next two books.

Whew! My fingers just fell off from all this typing. Memories, Dreams, and Reflections may be online - but I'm copying from my own book.!

Jaded_Wanderer

September 27th, 2003, 5:20 am

Wow...that does sound much like the MOM - good work!! We know there are a lot of mysteries surrounding the Potters, especially Lily. Hope somehow they tie into this Alchemy thing too.

silver ink pot

September 27th, 2003, 7:10 am

Thanks, QueenGumby - love your name, by the way!

A few other Harry parallels with Carl Jung.

His name means "Young" and his orginal family coat-of-arms was a Phoenix! His great-great-grandfather was friends with two alchemists: Michael Maier (1568-1622) and Gerardus Dorneus, who wrote a book on Paracelcus called "De Vita Longa," which is about the process of becoming an individual. Jung used this book in his psychological research - I'm going to try to find this online.

As a child he had trouble in school due to strange fainting spells, from which he eventually recovered. He was tormented by terrible dreams that he couldn't decide were from God or the Devil. These dreams were so powerful that he remembered them all of his life and later did research on the symbols in them.

His teachers often berated him, in the manner of professor Snape, and thought he was a lazy student who sometimes cheated. He was sometimes chewed out by professors for doing the opposite of what he was told. Also, he often got into fights with other students. At one point, he decided he would rather be second in his class than have to be in competition with everyone. That really sounded like Harry to me!

He wrote a book called Psychology and Alchemy. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of it.

Jaded_Wanderer

September 27th, 2003, 8:45 am

Holy heck Silver Ink Pot you're an efficient researcher!! (love your name too btw :) ) This Jung stuff's has some incredible similarities to HP.....will definitely try to get my hands on that book!

On a completely different line of thought, could creatures like the hippogriff (half griffin, half horse), etc. have any significance when it comes to alchemy?

Venustas

September 28th, 2003, 11:52 pm

Constant Vigilance

September 29th, 2003, 4:45 pm

Oh, I think the centaurs fall into that same category, as part animal, part man, but I don't remember how it works.

The ancient greeks used the cantaurs as a simbol of the union of man and beast. They are like a living contradiction: the union of the intellect and brute force. Thus they were dangerous (Hercules' nemesis was a centaur). This description fits HP: "stargazers" with a bad disposition.

The greeks also used the hipogriff as a simbol of love. If you visit Symbolic Flight (a H/Hr shipping site) you can read an essay on the hipogriff and it's meaning in HP. Very scray for us R/H shippers!

Etoille

October 1st, 2003, 6:14 am

All I can say is WOW! :wow: I feel like (I don’t know what age, but old enough to know terribly intelligent stuff is being discussed) into a (if there was such a thing) Ravenclaw PhD program! I’ve never studied any of this, I love it and you all have presented such impressive exceptional points/research/theories. I just can’t believe it. All of it ties into the HP series (thus far) so well. Well done everyone! :tu:

Alchemical images have often been used in Christian/religious art. Stained glass windows from Medieval churches sometimes show alchemical influences, especially with the unicorn, but as well with the phoenix, and also with snakes and dragons representing Satan/evil. Religious stories have also been written with the imagery (think St.George and the Dragon), and even more recently the Chronicals of Narnia- who's author, by the way, was an expert in Medieval literature and world view.

Something I remember as a child (having grown up Catholic) about the four apostles Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, having animals associated with them. Unfortunately, I can’t remember if this is indeed true, or what the animals were, or if they would even fit into this thread. But reading this particular post, it reminded me of it (for what it is worth).

Keep it going, I can’t wait to read more (though I probably won’t state much more, other than perhaps to jump in from time to time to let you all know how much I’m impressed and to pat you on the backs for doing such a **** good job)! :wow: :clap:

silver ink pot

October 2nd, 2003, 1:59 am

Good question, Queengumby,
The hippogriff is symbolic in alchemy as representing two parts in one- that is, one part is belonging to the earth (horse) and the other to the sky (eagle). In Medieval alchemy of the Church the hippogriff was used to symbolize Jesus, -being of the earth (man) and at the same time of Heaven (God), in one person.
(which is quite interesting applied to book 3, as the hippogriff was unfairly judged, then killed, but is now alive, and then acted as 'savior' for Sirius, saving him from the Dementor's kiss and worse-than-death)

This is fascinating to me, Venustas! Guess who is compared to a Hippogriff in PoA?

PoA, Chapter 14, page 282, American

"Snape's eyes were boring into Harry's. It was exactly like trying to stare down a hippogriff. Harry tried hard not to blink."

This refers back to page 115, when Hagrid tells the children that the Hippogriff won't trust them if they blink too much. What's interesting is that BuckBeak DOES trust Harry, and even bows to him, then allows Harry to climb on his back and fly. So what does this say about Snape - foreshadowing hope for their relationship? Also, Buckbeak attacks Draco! So is Snape a good guy?

And being a "horse/eagle" reminds me of Perseus who tamed the winged Horse Pegasus. (Perseus Evans is an anagram for Severus Snape)

Snape's nose is certainly "beakish" - don't you think!

There are certainly other animals associated with alchemy. Alchemists were lovers of symbolism and art, I think! There is the pelican:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/animal.html

The white pelican bird with its long bill reaching down over its breast, was in medieval times mistakenly observed piercing its breast with its bill and feeding its young on its own blood. What actually happens is that the bird regurgitates food it has caught earlier and its young feed on this ground up fish, bits of which fall onto the breast of the pelican and it appears as if its breast is bleeding. This myth of the sacrificial act of the Pelican in feeding its young on its own blood, was more powerful than the prosaic reality and during medieval times the Pelican became a symbol for ChristÕs sacrifice of his blood. Alchemists also took this symbol aboard and readily incorporated it into their symbolic menagerie.

For some reason, the pelican reminds me of Lilly, who nurtured Harry and then died for him. The pelican is also a type of vessel used in alchemy with a pipe coming out the top that looks like a pelican's twisted neck. We haven't really seen an actual Pelican. Perhaps in the next books, the action will move to the seashore at some point?

http://tampa.us.mensa.org/pelicanexplan.php
The pelican is also a symbol in alchemy, not only as a specific type of retort whose “beak” bends down toward its “pot belly,” but also as an image for the philosopher's stone, which, when pulverized and mixed with molten lead, transforms the lead into gold. In this sense, the pelican symbolizes selfless striving for purification. The Knights of the Rosae Crucis (Rosicrucians) were also sometimes called the Knights of the Pelican. There is a medieval hymn that contains the words “Pie pelicane, Jesu domine” (“O merciful pelican, Lord Jesus”).

We've talked about the Red Lion being like Ron, and the White Lion being Hermione, but I found a reference to a "Green Lion" which is used in plant alchemy. Notice the reference to "sap" which reminds me of Neville and his stinksap!:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/animal.html
. . . To other alchemists who worked primarily with vegetable matter and processes, rather than the mineral work, the Green Lion was an image of the green raw energy of nature, "the green fuse which drives the flower" as Dylan Thomas elegantly expressed it in one of his poems. Here the Green Lion which devours the sun is the green pigment chlorophyll. The green leaves of the plant are formed out of the energy of sunlight. Alchemists often attempted to create living processes in their flasks and looked especially for precipitates or crystallisations which resembled leaves or plant forms. The Green Lion here could be a plant sap extract which was often the prima materia for their alchemical work. The Gryphon, half-eagle and half-lion, was sometimes associated with the end of this stage. The eagle nature of the Gryphon gave this hybrid being an ability to ascend in the flask, so it marked, in a sense, the spiritualisation of the Green Lion.

Then there is the "Grey Wolf"

In the work with minerals, the metal antimony was referred to as the Grey Wolf, because when molten it greedily swallowed up many other metals, such as copper, tin and lead, by forming alloys. In this sense it behaved like metallic mercury which also readily amalgamated with metals. The Grey Wolf of antimony became especially important in early 17th century alchemy - its curative properties being popularised through the writings published under the name of Basil Valentine.

That's enough for tonight! I love this thread!

flibbertigibbet

October 2nd, 2003, 3:25 am

Wow, I am absolutely overwhelmed by the information in this thread. I know there aren't any concrete theories here, but I am convinced that JK had a lot of this in mind while writing the book. I don't know that we'll see explicit references to it in future books (at least, I don't think JK will come right out and write, hey, the whole point of this book is alchemy), but I think it'll be a running theme that gives us huge clues as to the underlying message of the series and relationships between characters and all that.

I won't have time to go and research alchemy until Christmas break :sad:, but I want to keep up with this thread nonetheless. I'll just mention things that come to mind sans research while reading this.

I really dig this idea, Constant Vigilance, because when I project what might happen to Harry in the next two books, I often imagine him having to make a potion to save someone important. He might need to save someone's life, even Snape's life, and to make a mistake would be the end for everyone. I bet Harry could put a little prayer into it then!

I'm reminded of Snape's high expectations for his NEWT students and Harry's need to get into that class. I know DADA is more Harry's cup of tea, but I think Potions will end up being much more important to him than he suspects. Potions and Snape are mentioned way too often in the books for Harry to just not take it in sixth year.

But all your observations are wonderful! I love the idea of herbology and potions being connected.

I can't really say anything specific here, except that I think the fact Neville's most feared subject is Potions and his favourite is Herbology is significant.

All that talk about plants in this context, too.. Lily, Petunia, Narcissa.. I wish I knew more about them!

Red Herring

October 2nd, 2003, 7:45 am

Basil Valentine, not featured on a card, published the twelve keys of alchemy, and believed that love played a crucial role in spiritual alchemy. (The "love" room in the DoM?)
Might the 12 keys of alchemy correlate to the 12 doors? Do you have a link to the 12 keys? *goes to google it*

smenkhare

October 2nd, 2003, 8:07 am

I don't know if anyone has posted this and it is a little of topic but scientists have actually managed to turn lead into gold by altering the molecular structure, however the process is too expensive to be practical

silver ink pot

October 2nd, 2003, 1:46 pm

smenkhare: I had no idea! Fascinating - so the old alchemists were right after all!

I agree with flibbertigibbet - potions have to be of ultra importance, otherwise why would aurors need to know about them? Of course, potions can save lives and be medicinal. We know about the polyjuice potion, the strengthening solution, and the Draught of Peace. I wonder what people learn in advanced potions? Alchemy, perhaps? Can't wait to find out!

Venustas

October 4th, 2003, 5:44 am

Here are some sites I've found helpful.
This one gives a general overview of alchemy, and links it with the symbols, planets, days of the week, etc.

http://www.hexagongirl.com/y/22-Alchemy&Symbols.html

While alchemy has been applied in many, many ways (through chemistry, psychologically, spiritually...) I am looking at it mostly through Medieval spirituality, when it was used in the Church. These sites give the Medieval meanings to many of the creatures/symbols used in HP:

http://www.heraldryunlimited.com/index.htm
Discusses Medieval creatures such as the basilisk, griffin, phoenix, and centaurs (and many more)

http://www.heraldryunlimited.com/guide/home_page.htm
Just about everything else you can think of... cat, boar, badger, dog, deer (especially Stag- another life/rebirth symbol like the phoenix and basilisk), the moon, mandrake and Nimbus(!) to name a few of note.

Hope they're helpful

Oh, and Etoille, thanks for the kind words of encouragement! :blush: I hope you do jump in!- I don't know about the Apostles/Animals, but I'll be looking.

whizbang121

October 5th, 2003, 5:00 am

Hey, it's my turn on the computer! Yay!!!
I read the first page and a half, and I'm incredibly impressed. I also have a million questions, but I'm gonna jump in here.

But I think we'll see something like prayer.
Could an incantation be considered a prayer?

Alchemy is very spiritual, that's a way of seen inmortality: spiritual excellence. And the HP books are a "coming of age story" so Harry will show some spiritual advancement in the 7 books.
I think this books forces Harry to make spiritual questions that he will have to answer with the help of his potions (alchemy) master (not proffessor). I see occlumency as a first step.
Occlumency looks a lot like meditation.
Why do I think JK Rowling digs the spirituality of alchemy? Because OotP ends with Harry thinking about death for the first time. Anybody noticed he is completely ignorant of the subyect when he talks to Sir Nick?

We've wondered on other threads why these kids know nothing about the belief systems concerning death in the magical culture. Nor do they seem to have any idea what the traditions concerning death are. Are there funerals? Is there a period of mourning? Luna seems to have a better understanding than the rest, but even she doesn't seem to have the whole story. And why don't they know anything about the death chamber? Where does that fit into the alchemical archtypes?

Hermes and the ancient Egyptian genius Imhotep who may have been the real Hermes may add to the fun. Somewhere in another thread we mentioned pyramids and the capstone of the Great Pyramid, called by the ancients the benben stone. It was possibly a meteorite. This capstone was associated with the phoenix.

This is from the luna lovegood thread dated last june 30. The link goes to an alchemy page that I think has already been noted.

June 30th, 2003, 9:20 pm Post #8

Zen
I get the feeling that there will be a Harry/Luna relationship.

Look here for the stag and the unicorn

www.alchemywebsite.com/lambjrny.html

also note the lions and the wolf and dog
==============
I just finished reading the seven stages from Ellen's link.
An overview of the seven stages can be found at http://www.spiritofra.com/alchemy.htm.
It's interesting that the physiological aspect of each process is a yoga phase following the path of the kundalini. So, alchemy has roots in China, India, Egypt, and Greece. It would seem it was borrowed and turned to Christianity in the Middle Ages, but is in fact, much older. Is it also related to the Caballa?
=======================

Grimmauld Place is such a "Cancer" environment, and add to that the fact that Lupin is living there - a creature ruled by the moon. And you have "Moody" - which sounds emotional, and Sirius, with his huge family tree and his "sulky" moods. Molly is always cooking and worring about her children. And there are all those antique relics lying around!
I would disagree. Grimmauld place is remarkably scorpion, the sign of fixed water. Scorpio is the sign of death, secrets, inheritances, secret societies, the occult, sexuality. It evokes powerful, deep and dark emotions.
Lupin and Luna, however, are very Lunar/Cancerian. Cancer, the cardinal water sign, is nurturing and protective, maternal self sacrificing for the sake of children. Harry is surrounded by Cancerian influences, protected and nurtured. There is a thread discussing possible horoscopes for HP characters. Interesting.
================

The more I hear about these steps, and all the info y'all offer, the more I wonder about the role of death. We know that avoiding it is Voldemort's main objective. Everything he does is in order to gain immortality. Is he going about it the wrong way? How is his journey compared to Harry's? He obviously has immortality as his main goal, and Harry doesn't- do one's motives make a difference in purification? I would think that they would. Can Harry achieve purification without having it as a goal?
If I may borrow from yoga, understanding the role of death, or immortality is not achieved by overcoming or avoiding death. Rather the alchemist, like the yogi, comes to realize the highest truth: there is no death. This is the message of the empty sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid. It's also the message of Dumbledore who calls it the next great adventure, to the well organized mind. And poor Harry, kept in the dark about everything, stumbles blindly on this path. Why Dumbledore chooses to educate him this way is a mystery, although Harry's resistance to studying occlumency may be a clue as to why this method is necessary until he can consciously come to grips with what exactly is required of him. As to one's motives, on the Prophesy thread, we considered the possibility that Tom Riddle was meant to bring the houses together and repair the rifts in the magical world caused by Wizard chauvanism, for lack of a better term. But overcome by his difficult childhood, he became fearful of death and self interest overtook him. So now it's Harry who must perform all his tasks and vanquish him as well. Maybe Dumbledore is overcautious with Harry because the last effort failed.
About the reuniting of the houses, I wonder if Harry isn't descended, (although not necessarily the heir) of all four houses as well as muggles. He would embody the perfected concept of union among magical as well as non magical folk. It reminds me of my old theory that Harry isn't just fighting in this battle of good against evil. Harry is the very battleground it is fought on. Hmmmmm.....
Sounds like the definition of an alchemist;)
=======================
Jung's Dream

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dreamed once more that my house had a large wing which I had never visited. I resolved to look at it, and finally entered. I came to a big double door. When I opened it, I found myself in a room set up as a laboratory. This was my father's workroom. However, he was not there. On shelves along the walls stood hundreds of bottles containing every imaginable sort of fish. I was astonished: so now my father was going in for ichthyology!

As I stood there and looked around I noticed a curtain which bellied out from time to time, as though a strong wind were blowing. Suddenly Hans, a young man from the country, appeared. I told him to look and see whether a window were open in the room behind the curtain. He went, and was gone for some time. When he returned, I saw an expression of terror on his face. He said only, "Yes, there is something. It's haunted in there!"

Then I myself went, and found a door which led to my mother's room. There was no one in it. The atmosphere was uncanny. The room was very large, and suspended from the ceiling were two rows of five chests each, hanging about two feet above the floor. They looked like small garden pavilions, each about six feet in area, and each containing two beds. I knew that this was the room where my mother, who in reality had long been dead, was visited, and that she had set up these for visiting spirits to sleep. They were spirits who came in pairs, ghostly married couples, so to speak, who spent the night or even the day there.

Opposite my mother's room was a door. I opened it and entered a vast hall; it reminded me of the lobby of a large hotel. It was fitted out with easy chairs, small tables, pillars, sumptuous hangings, etc. a brass band was playing loudly . . .

No one would have guessed that behind this loud facade was the other world, also located in the same building. The dream-image of the lobby was . . . a caricature . . . of worldly joviality. . . . Behind it lay something quite different, . . . the fish laboratory and the hanging pavilions for spirits. Both were awesome places in which a mysterious silence prevailed. In them I had the feeling: Here is the dwelling of night; whereas the lobby stood for the daylight world and its superficiality.

. . . Something had remained unfinished and was still with my parents; that is to say, it was still latent in the unconscious and hence reserved for the future. I was being reminded that I had not yet dealt with the major concern of philosophical alchemy.
-----------------------

Two things that got my attention. The curtain billowing as if a strong wind was blowing, reminds me of the veil in the archway of the death chamber. The idea that his mother entertained and used the pavillions somewhat like guest rooms for visitors reminds me of the death chamber, a pavillion with amphitheater seating. I've guessed that this room is possibly a place where the living may communicate with the dead at appointed times. Say, Halloween? Halloween is, in every book an important date.
I think we may discover that James and Lily were unspeakables, alchemists and even that James may have had a laboratory. The fish, I admit, confuse me. :huh:
This brings me to wonder about the power the prophesied one is born with, that the dark lord knows not, that is studied in the dept of mysteries and that Harry has in "such quantities." The highest power which seems to be the combination of all the powers at the alchemist's disposal, under his control and focused by his will.
Wow. This is long :whistle: Sorry.

silver ink pot

October 6th, 2003, 4:21 am

Grimmauld place is remarkably scorpion, the sign of fixed water. Scorpio is the sign of death, secrets, inheritances, secret societies, the occult, sexuality. It evokes powerful, deep and dark emotions.
Lupin and Luna, however, are very Lunar/Cancerian. Cancer, the cardinal water sign, is nurturing and protective, maternal self sacrificing for the sake of children. Harry is surrounded by Cancerian influences, protected and nurtured. There is a thread discussing possible horoscopes for HP characters. Interesting.

Whizbang: You are perfectly right about this! I don't know what I was thinking - just the antique feel of Grimmauld Place and the Mystery of it. But you are right - it is much too sinister to be Cancer and it is associated with death - Scorpio all the way! Smacking my head now!

Even Petunia could be seen as having a Cancer influence on Harry, since she's been his surrogate "mother". She's always washing frying pans and stirrng pots. But she's definitely the crabby phase of Cancer!:lol:

whizbang121

October 6th, 2003, 4:29 am

Whizbang: You are perfectly right about this! I don't know what I was thinking - just the antique feel of Grimmauld Place and the Mystery of it. But you are right - it is much too sinister to be Cancer and it is associated with death - Scorpio all the way! Smacking my head now!

Even Petunia could be seen as having a Cancer influence on Harry, since she's been his surrogate "mother". She's always washing frying pans and stirrng pots. But she's definitely the crabby phase of Cancer!:lol:
I hadn't thought of Petunia as a Cancer influence however ill aspected, but you're right. :elaugh:

Serpentine

October 6th, 2003, 3:07 pm

Wow, what a fascinating thread! So much brilliant research done, so many good finds... Kudos to everybody! :wow: Alchemy definitely seems to be prominent in HP, and the information about Jung, spirituality etc. add even more to the interest. Unfortunately I don't really know much about alchemy myself, but I'll sure peek in here now and then. Keep it going! :)

Something I remember as a child (having grown up Catholic) about the four apostles Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, having animals associated with them. Unfortunately, I can’t remember if this is indeed true, or what the animals were, or if they would even fit into this thread. But reading this particular post, it reminded me of it (for what it is worth).

Ah, that at least is something where I might be able to contribute. :) The Catholic Encyclopaedia (www.newadvent.org/cathen/) says the following about them:

* St. Mark: "As to the manner of his death, the "Acts" of Mark give the saint the glory of martyrdom, and say that he died while being dragged through the streets of Alexandria; so too the Paschal Chronicle. But we have no evidence earlier than the fourth century that the saint was martyred. This earlier silence, however, is not at all decisive against the truth of the later traditions. (...) In Christian literature and art St. Mark is symbolically represented by a lion."

* St. Luke: "St. Luke its always represented by the calf or ox, the sacrificial animal, because his Gospel begins with the account of Zachary, the priest, the father of John the Baptist." No mention of a martyr's death, apparently he died unmarried at the age of 76.

* St. Matthew: "There is a disagreement as to the place of St. Matthew's martyrdom and the kind of torture inflicted on him, therefore it is not known whether he was burned, stoned, or beheaded. The Roman Martyrology simply says: 'S. Matthæi, qui in Æthiopia prædicans martyrium passus est'. (...) St. Matthew is represented under the symbol of a winged man, carrying in his hand a lance as a characteristic emblem. "

* St. John: "(...) John had been thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil before the Porta Latina at Rome without suffering injury. (...) Early Christian art usually represents St. John with an eagle, symbolizing the heights to which he rises in the first chapter of his Gospel. The chalice as symbolic of St. John, which, according to some authorities, was not adopted until the thirteenth century, is sometimes interpreted with reference to the Last Supper, again as connected with the legend according to which St. John was handed a cup of poisoned wine, from which, at his blessing, the poison rose in the shape of a serpent. Perhaps the most natural explanation is to be found in the words of Christ to John and James 'My chalice indeed you shall drink' (Matthew 20:23)."

All this doesn't sound directly connected to alchemy, and is probably off topic... But it somehow reminds me of the four Houses of Hogwarts. Even the order of the tables in the Great Hall might be mirroring the chronological (not the biblical) order of the four Gospels, from the first one written by Mark to the last by John. Since the spiritual side of alchemy seems to show in Christian art as well, can any of the "alchemy specialists" here make something of the imagery?

whizbang121

October 6th, 2003, 3:59 pm

Mark is the lion. Interesting on several layers. Remember the quote about spartan wit and the many layers?
Luke is the calf or ox, sacrficial animal. The lamb representing Christ is also sacrificial. And yet he's the one who died of old age. Also, he tells the story of the prophesy to Zacarias concerning both John and Jesus. The One and his forerunner. hmmmmm.....
Matthew's symbol sounds like Mars with wings. A winged man, an angel outfitted for battle.
John as the chalice and the eagle sounds like the perfect symbol of the alchemist. He was even inclined to visions. Was that the sixth stage?

whizbang121

October 7th, 2003, 1:57 am

Look what I just noticed on the prophesy thread.

1. The one with power to vanquish the dark lord approaches__________check
2. Born to those who have thrice defied him _______________________check
3. Born as the seventh month dies_______________________________ check
4. And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal______________________check
5. But he will have power the dark lord knows not___________________check
6. And either must die at the hand of the other ___
7. For neither can live while the other survives______________________check

The prophesy is in seven stages. :eyebrows:

whizbang121

October 8th, 2003, 9:45 pm

anybody home? Don't let this die!

Venustas

October 8th, 2003, 10:19 pm

Thanks Whizbang- we really do need to revive this thread... we've got such good stuff going!

So... how do you all see alchemy played out in particular scenes? Silver Ink Pot had talked about the imagry of Harry on Slytherin's head as he killed the Basilisk. Where else do we see alchemical ideas played out?

BTW, Whizbang- I really liked how you identified the 7 parts of the prophecy- very interesting

whizbang121

October 8th, 2003, 10:32 pm

There used to be a thread about 12's and 7's and repeating numbers. Then there are the socks. Repeating elements.

flibbertigibbet

October 9th, 2003, 12:42 am

Ooh, silver ink pot, learning alchemy in advanced potions - what a great idea! Since so many other fields of study discredited by muggles are studied at Hogwarts, why not alchemy? It's obviously still studied somewhere, since Dumbledore and Flamel work(ed?) on it.

Whizbang - I haven't seen the thread, but here's a page from the Lexicon (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/number_twelve.html) that mentions a whole bunch of references to the number 12.

The more I hear about these steps, and all the info y'all offer, the more I wonder about the role of death. We know that avoiding it is Voldemort's main objective. Everything he does is in order to gain immortality. Is he going about it the wrong way? How is his journey compared to Harry's? He obviously has immortality as his main goal, and Harry doesn't- do one's motives make a difference in purification? I would think that they would. Can Harry achieve purification without having it as a goal?

I don't know that Harry could achieve purification if it was his goal. Have you ever found that some things get harder the more you try doing them, and then turn out to be simple once you back away? I think it's the same with Harry's purification - if he knows about it and tries to become purified, chances are he'll mess everything up.

I like the point about the role of death. We know JK has experienced a close death herself, so she must feel strongly about it. And it's been mentioned many times in the books - I'd even go so far as to say it's a theme. What we have now is our main character struggling to accept death and his arch nemesis struggling to avoid it altogether.

You gotta wonder if Voldie suffered a traumatic death in his childhood and just couldn't get past it... :whistle:

Etoille

October 9th, 2003, 1:30 am

You gotta wonder if Voldie suffered a traumatic death in his childhood and just couldn't get past it... :whistle:

Well we do know that his dad left his mum after finding out she was a witch, which left her alone to raise her son. However, she died while giving birth, which, in turn, led him to be placed in an orphanage. He hated growing up there as seen by the turn of events in COS. She was the lineage for him being the heir of Slytherin...I wonder if she could have been able to tell him a whole lot of information regarding that ancestry if she had lived...

Ellen

October 9th, 2003, 3:51 am

I was reading up on the star Regulus. It was sometimes associated with the archangel Raphael. Raphael is the patron of apothecaries (the closest I could come to a patron saint of alchemists). He was also symbolized with a staff. Some new age stuff I checked (sorry, I did this a while back and didn't save the references) suggested that this might be a caduceus. Although I haven't found any more historical references to it as such, Raphael is also associated with healing (the name means "healed of God" or "God is a healer") so it would make sense.

The interesting thing is the more I read up on Raphael the more he seemed like Snape rather than the bit we know about Regulus. For example, in the apocryphal book of Tobit, Raphael (disguised as a mortal) gives lessons and instructions to a young man who must have found him a bit difficult at times (such as when he tells him he gets to take on a demon that's already killed seven men). For those who want a water reference, Raphael instructs him on how to use the parts of a monstrous fish (not quite potion making) to banish demons and heal the blind.

whizbang121

October 9th, 2003, 3:53 am

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/index.html[/url]] Alchemy is a complex subject with many different interconnected aspects. Many people still only think of the quest of the philosophers' stone to change base metals into gold. On this web site you will be able to explore the riches of alchemical texts, some of which are wonderful works of allegorical literature, delve into its amazing, beautiful and enigmatic symbolism, and ponder its underlying hermetic philosophy, which holds a picture of the interconnection of the Macrocosm and Microcosm.
Doesn't that sound like a description of the HP series?:)
I wonder how the interconnectionof the Macroscosm and microcosm fits in with Harry Potter. Is it that Hogwarts reflects the magical world?

This is from the link on the above site concerning animal symbols:
The alchemists though pursuing their inner work independently as individuals, nevertheless found in their interior descent a coherent language of symbols.

At the core of this was a vision of an alchemical process occurring through a cycle of colour changes, from an initial blackness to the perfection of the quintessence.
The alchemist envisaged each stage of the process being heralded by a colour change and a meeting with certain animals.

Blackening - Black Crow, Raven, Toad, Massa Confusa.
Whitening - White Swan, White Eagle, skeleton.
Greening - Green Lion.
Rapid cycling through iridescent colours - Peacock's Tail.
White Stone - Unicorn.
Reddening - Pelican feeding young with its own blood, cockerel.
Final transmutation - Phoenix reborn from the fire.
This is part of last paragraph on the page.

The final stage of the work was often symbolised by the Phoenix rising from the flames. This goes back to the Greek myth of the Phoenix bird which renewed itself every 500 years by immolating itself on a pyre. ... In interior terms its marks the rebirth of the personality from out of the crucible of transformation. The alchemists in meditating on processes in their flasks threw themselves into a sea of strange experiences, and as they worked these within their meditations and sought to grasp the inner parallels and significance of each of the stages of the process they had embarked upon, in a sense they experienced an inner death and rebirth in attaining the Philosophers' Stone. This stone was actually experienced as the formation of a solid ground within the shifting sea of their inner world. Once this solid ground in the soul was found, the alchemists were able to take hold of their lives in a creative way, they could root their personality on a solid foundation or ground of inner experience.

One symbol of the stone was that of the Ouroboros, the snake holding its tail. As we begin the work, we are all rather unformed ... and often victims at the mercy of the sway of polarities in the soul, psychic energies that constantly shift from one pole to another, .... Our consciousness naturally follows the cycle of wakefulness and sleep, reflecting the cycle of day and night and the Seasons in Nature. This duality becomes reflected in many of our inner experiences. The snake often was used as a symbol for duality - its long drawn out body separating the polarities of head and tail. Sometimes the figure of a winged dragon was used here in place of the snake, in order to close the circle with the dragon at the beginning of the work. When the snake or dragon seized its tail it united the polarities into a circle, a symbol to the alchemists for achieving solidity amongst the dualistic energies of the soul forces. The creation of the Philosophers'stone, was the formation of solid inner ground upon which the alchemical philosophers could build their personalities, and experience the full potentiality of being human.

whizbang121

October 9th, 2003, 4:18 am

silver ink pot

October 9th, 2003, 6:08 am

I don't know about the rest of you here, but I am in awe of this thread!:huh: I learn something every single time I sit down to read here. I'll never look at these books or at life the same way after learning so much about Alchemy. I posted on the thread about the "Core" of the books that I thought Alchemy is the key. I really do! That's why there are seven books, and seven parts of the curse - Brilliant, Whizbang! - and so many other sevens. I have no intention of letting this thread die away, LOL! In fact, every time I read a few pages of OotP, I find something new to write about!

Ellen: I am going straight to the Apocrypha tonight when I get offline, and re-reading the Book of Tobit. That sounds just right for this thread!

Whizbang: I am so glad to see you here! I knew you'd like this thread!:)
I was re-reading "Snape's Worst Memory" last night, and got to the part about James playing with the Snitch. We have talked about how the snitch is like the winged ball on top of the caduceus. It is also alot like the philosopher's stone. James keeps letting it go and catching it, and when he is asked where he got it, he says, "Nicked it." Obviously, that means he stole it - which I found interesting. We know from all this reading that there is no "easy way" to gain the philosopher's stone. I think the first book is symbolic. The children have to go through hell just to get to the stone, and then Harry gets it by NOT wanting to use it! I'll have to check and see if there are seven tasks the children go through to get the stone - I think there might be!

Symbolically, you can't steal it because it is part of your being that you have worked on through the seven stages. So what do you think this says about James, who casually says he "nicked" the snitch/stone?
The wording "Nicked It" reminded me of Nicholas Flammel, and the metal nickel, which according to my dictionary is also known as "copper-demon" because it looks like copper, but is really something else. I also thought of Nearly Headless Nick, since the snitch is like the "head" of the Caduceus, and we know that Nick wasn't brave enough to die and pass on - he stays around as a ghost. "Nearly Headless" takes on a whole new meaning in the light of Alchemy. He is unfinished and not complete in death. He's almost there, but not quite. He is even different from the other ghosts on the Headless Hunt, who shun him! So maybe there is a James/Nick parallel. This makes me think there is some flaw in James - he is not what he seems, I don't think. Of course, this is 15-year-old James, and not a complete adult. But his attitude is so thoughtless, so different from Harry, that it makes me wonder about what changed him later on.

Sabine

October 9th, 2003, 7:04 am

I really do love this thread. Even if its something so advanced I can hardly post in it :)

But I think I could lend a hand in the tasks the cildren had to go through:

1. Fluffy
2. Devils Snare
3. Flying keys
4. Chessboard
5. The troll (does that count - the kids found this work done already?)
6. the potions
7. the mirror

fits :)

Sabine

Etoille

October 9th, 2003, 7:19 am

whizbang121

October 9th, 2003, 1:42 pm

Wow is right! Who said these are children's books?! :agree: JKR is a real taskmaster. She's making alchemists of us. ;) Feel free to jump right in.

I posted on the thread about the "Core" of the books that I thought Alchemy is the key. I really do! That's why there are seven books, and seven parts of the curse

This reminds me that what JKR says in interviews needs often to be understood at the most superficial layer. (Where was the article about spartans and their layers of wit posted? This thread, I hope?) She seems to have mastered the art of these layers. If I believed in reincarnation, (and I do) I would say she mastered this art in a previous life. :agree:

Let's see, it's been a few minutes since I read the book of Tobit, (that's in cosmic time, of course), but if I remember correctly:
The demon was in love with a woman and every time her father married her off, the demon killed the new husband before he was alone with her. After going through seven husbands, Tobit, coached by Raphael, shows up with a dead fish and that's all I remember. (I think it was grossed out by the fish and didn't finish it. :rolleyes:)
The apocrypha can get pretty tough. Macabees is not pleasant, any of them. But those were dark times, too. (I couldn't finish them either. No stomach for anything gory or cruel.)

Sabine, I think the troll should count. It was actually the result of the troll invasion that Hermione was included and they became 'the trio.' So seven challenges. Sevens and twelves. Do I hear nines and elevens? :lol:

And socks! Anything alchemical about socks? Warm socks. Woolen socks. Wool is a very poor conductor of electricity, up there with wood and dirt. Wool from sheep, docile - sacrificial - warm - alive.
Ramble on.

I need to go back. I missed the part where the caduceus is the stone. I thought it related to healing and intertwined snakes. Good ideas about the choice of the word 'nicked.' James does seem to go through a transformation of sorts. But remember when Harry asked Sirius and Lupin about his father, they suggested that while James did grow up, there were still things going on that Lily didn't know about. Hmmmmmm......
Think I'll go look for that scene. James becomes very interesting here and in the Sirius Black thread all of a sudden.

whizbang121

October 10th, 2003, 1:56 pm

Hey all,

Who mentioned necromancy. Wasn't someone mentioned here executed for it? Was it Paracelcus?
Suddenly, necromancy comes up in the context of how Tom Riddle became Voldemort. Thoughts?

Sinistra

October 10th, 2003, 4:02 pm

Well, necromancy is divination and/or communication with the dead. Being a medium, contacting departed loved ones, Using discarnate spirits as guides and the rest. Only the later Inquisitioners made it mean using dead bodies for magic and such (and also dissection for medical purposes, which was forbidden until the 1800's throughout the west. Hence the additional horror of the Frankenstein myth).

And necromancy was used as an excuse for people being executed by the Inquisition, that was one of the many "crimes" committed by the Templars, according to Philip of France.

Tom Riddle probably tried everything he could find, especially in the dark arts, and necromancy is still somewhat considered a dark art, to seek his goal.

And, in ceremonial magick, Raphael's symbol is a yellow caduceus.

whizbang121

October 10th, 2003, 4:14 pm

Alcina

October 11th, 2003, 3:47 pm

Not realted to anything that's been said recently, I'm afraid, but relevant to the whole alchemy idea:

The chap who first came up with the earth/air/fire/water 4 elements scheme (a man called Empedocles) believed things could undergo change by altering the proportion of these 4 elements. He believed that this came about by the action of two fundamental, non-corporeal principles: love and strife.

now THAT rings a bell too, especially if you see Harry as a personification of the principle of love and the Dark Lord as a personification of the principle of strife (which kind of makes sense to me).....We've talked about how change and advancement to a higher level are necessary; are these two opposing people/forces both necessary for that?

whizbang121

October 12th, 2003, 12:36 am

Been looking for information on Raphael online. Let's see, one of seven archangels before the throne of God. Angel of Love, angel of healing.
***********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~^^^^^^^^^^^~~~~~~~* *******
Has anyone come across anything in alchemy that looks like switching spells? Or do we need a thread for magick? zzzzz

Love vs strife. Sound like Brahma = creator, Vishnu = sustainer, Shiva = destroyer.

Serpentine

October 14th, 2003, 3:03 pm

Snape, of course. He has the lab. He has the book of Herbal remedies and the plants and stones in the potions: Hellebore and Moonstone in the Draught of Peace (see the Neville and Gum Thread!). He doesn't go in for the "wand-waving" but the careful following of ingredients and steps - very scientific. And his sunny disposition (just kidding) is alot like the historical Paracelsus. Also, Snape has a philosophy towards Harry very close to Paracelsus!

If we think alchemy is important in the books we should look up the potions class. It's the alchemy class! We alredy know it's a hard work class (again hufflepuff) because of the "no silly wand play" Snape talks about. It's also an explanation to why Snape is not DADA teacher. He has not evolved enough to teach that (I would be scared of him teaching DADA as of now).

All very true. :agree: That evolution could be what Dumbledore is waiting for when he - so far - keeps denying him DADA. By the way, SIP, your Jung quote about the laboratory with the fish bottles reminded me of Snape's office with all the nasty stuff he keeps in jars (newt's eyes, frog brains...). And James, Snape's nemesis, "nicked the Snitch" in his Worst Memory (good find, SIP - where did he nick it anyway?) and apparently went on tormenting him even when he grew up. Hmmm, I wonder what might have become of "Paracelsus Snape" if "Snitchnick James" had left him in peace...

It also makes me wonder once more if Quidditch in general could have a more important role in the books than it seems to have at the first glance. In the Prophecy department there is a thread where it has also been suggested that it carries more importance, but here in the Alchemy thread it really strikes me. Each team having seven players, Seeker James nicking the Snitch, Harry's dream ("We had to use Neville instead!"), CoS-victim Ginny taking his place as a Seeker in OotP and Ron becoming Keeper... If the Golden Snitch is the finished Stone/Caduceus, what could the red Quaffle and the black Bludgers be - Rosado and Negrado, perhaps? And what role does the referee actually play (usually Hooch, but once in SS/PS Snape took over to protect Harry)? Or am I just getting confuddled? :shrug:

whizbang121

October 14th, 2003, 5:26 pm

No I think you're on to something. If the snitch is the caduceus which represents the philosopher's stone, then the object of the game of quidditch is to catch the philosopher's stone and the the seven players on each team are competing for immortality.
If James nicked the snitch, has he stolen immortality or at least, "borrowed" it? Has he skipped the necessary steps, (broken the rules) to achieve the philospher's stone and become transformed? (His wand was good for transformation.)
Snape as the alchemist who follows the directions carefully and appreciates the subtlety of each step in the process would despise this sacreligious misuse the ancient art and so despise James for taking hold of the reward without doing the work.
My husband mentioned several times yesterday evening, that Nicolas Flamel will come back into the story. Dumbledore said he had enough elixor to put his affairs in order. Just what are the affairs that need putting in order. Do these affairs include seeing the vanquishing of the Dark Lord to its successful completion. Is Flamel advising Dumbledore?
**********

Is it Flamel's voice we hear coming out of Trelawney?

***************************I just lost the link to the page this came from I'll go look for it.

The most basic tenet of alchemy is that there are two primary ways of knowing reality, and learning to work with both of them is how we must begin the journey of transformation.

The first way of knowing is the rational, deductive, argumentative, intellectual thinking that is the hallmark of science and our patriarchal Western culture. The alchemists called this Solar Consciousness and assigned it many code words, such as the Sun, Sulfur, the King, the Father, Spirit, and ultimately, the One Mind of the universe. .....
The alchemists called the other way of knowing Lunar Consciousness. This intelligence of the heart is a non-linear, image-driven, intuitive way of thinking that is an accepted tool of the arts and religion. Among its many symbols are the Moon, Mercury, the Queen, the Holy Ghost, Soul, and ultimately, the One Thing of the universe. .....
Whenever possible, material will be presented from both the King's and the Queen's viewpoints. The alchemists believed that perfection could only be achieved by working with both Solar and Lunar ways of knowing and ultimately uniting them in a third state of Stellar Consciousness, an integrated existence that Egyptian alchemists called "Intelligence of the Heart." This level of consciousness is embedded in this website in a kind of spiritual hypertext that results from a wordless merging of the Lunar and Solar ways of working with the material. Stellar Consciousness is a state of incorruptible wisdom symbolized by the heroic Child that resulted from the marriage of the King and Queen, as well as by Salt, Gold, the Philosopher's Stone, the Astral Body, and of course, the Stars themselves. For, in the view of the alchemists, we are all embarked on a journey through the manifested planets -- a journey home to the Stars.

The idea that the afterlife is in a home in the stars was a belief of the ancient egyptian religion. It's the source of the saying that when someone dies a new star appears in heaven.
Here it is:
http://www.alchemylab.com/contents.htm

whizbang121

October 14th, 2003, 6:16 pm

Nicolas Flamel was French.
JKR has degrees in French and Classics. Anyone here read 14th century French? I can make my way through Canadian newspapers, but ......:scared:

Sabine

October 15th, 2003, 12:31 pm

Nicolas Flamel was French.
JKR has degrees in French and Classics. Anyone here read 14th century French? I can make my way through Canadian newspapers, but ......:scared:

Heavens Nooooooooooooooooooooooo ... I'm glad that I can "blushingly follow your steps" in this thread ;)

Sabine

Serpentine

October 15th, 2003, 7:10 pm

Nicolas Flamel was French.
JKR has degrees in French and Classics. Anyone here read 14th century French? I can make my way through Canadian newspapers, but ......:scared:

I once tried a French 17th century fiction text just for fun, but I seriously doubt that I could cope with a 14th century text specialized on alchemy. :no: Why, what kind of text do you mean? If it is the "Testament of Nicolas Flam(m)el", an English translation is already available on the Internet. I don't recall exactly where I came across it, but it was just a couple of days ago, following a link from this thread (page 2?).

Edit: Here's the link to the "Testament of Nicholas Flamel" (found on the page about herbs and alchemy): http://www.levity.com/alchemy/testment.html

Jaded_Wanderer

October 19th, 2003, 4:32 am

hmmm....interesting site, Serpetine, not that I can follow it too well :blush: :banghead: :frown: from what I understand, though, this text is not believed to have been written by Flamel in any case, even if it is a relatively accurate description of alchemy at his time. Can anybody relate it to HP?

The Black Adder

October 24th, 2003, 4:55 pm

Greetings--Serpentine recommended this thread over on the Snape Thread so I came over to look around. It is quite fascinating and illuminating, though it will take me a while to process it all.

I looked up alchemy in my Encyclopedia last night. Thought I would share an aphorism that it said was often at the end of Greek alchemist recipes:

"One nature rejoices in another nature; one nature triumphs over another nature; one nature masters another nature."

Said to go back to either the Magi, Stoics, or Aristotle and alchemists used to argue over its meaning. :shrug:

beagles

October 24th, 2003, 6:05 pm

For more stuff about Alchemy and mysticism:

www.har-tzion.com (http://www.har-tzion.com)

Enjoy!

whizbang121

October 24th, 2003, 9:21 pm

Can anybody relate it to HP?

There's lots on this thread that does that. It meshes almost perfectly.
This is the first post and begins to show how alchemy is related to HP. It gets better after this one. :agree:

~~~ ~~~
I haven't found this anywhere else...

Ms. Rowling mentions Alchemy in the other books, but it seems that she hit hard on it in book 5
In Ch. 14 Nick warns Harry that Peeve is going to drop a bust of Paracelsus on the next passer-by. Hang with me for a minute...

Alchemy is a pseudoscience, mixing magic and mystical philosophy, especially in the middleages alchemists believed that they could change elements into silver or gold (gold was thought to be the perfect metal). They also believed in the elixor of life, and that if it were possible to change metals into gold, it was possible to perfect all sorts of other things.
They believed that matter came from one source, then became 4 sources: earth, air, fire and water (and believed it was possible to change one of these 4 elements to another through transmutation, whatever that means)
Other things peculiar to alchemy:
-gold and immortality were linked
-techniques to make gold were symbolically related to death, corruption, regeneration and resurection
-heavenly bodies controled certain metals:
sun- gold, moon- silver, mars- iron, venus- copper, etc.

Paracelsus, Philippus Aureolus (1493-1541) (who's bust Peeves was going to throw) was a real guy, and tried to change the idea of the 4 elements, to 3 elements: sulfur, mercury and salt.

If you're still with me, I applaud you!
I started thinking of the 4 elements/4 houses, and all the things related to the ideas of Alchemy, and it came out like this:
Earth: Hufflepuf (badger)
Air: Ravenclaw (eagle/raven)
Water: Slytherin (snake) silver, death
Fire: Gryffindor (lion), gold, life

Silver and gold are mentioned a lot, but I think that they are coming to stand for good/evil, gryffindor/slytherin, etc. One reason I think this (I know it sounds far-fetched, but hear me out) is that for the Christmas party, Dobby hung gold baubles...(gold, right?) with Harry's head- JKR is linking gold to Harry. (pg.452 Am version) in the next chapter Mr. Weasley talks to Molly about a number of things, mentioning that he thinks "gold changed hands" (pg 490) On the very next page Moody suggests that Harry was possessed by Voldemort, in which case gold would have changed hands from good to bad, etc.

Sorry it was so long... I don't know how else to link all this stuff. My limited knowedge of alchemy comes from the family encyclopedia- if anyone else knows more and can figure this stuff out, please do!

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^

"One nature rejoices in another nature; one nature triumphs over another nature; one nature masters another nature."

I'll hazard a try at it.

At first, the spiritual and the corporeal rejoice in each other.

Then the corporeal runs amok, and triumphs over the spiritual.

But with discipline, the spiritual masters the corporeal.

The Black Adder

October 24th, 2003, 11:35 pm

Oooooo Whizbang, it seems so obvious now that you spell it out for me! :banghead:
I think I'll go back to lurking now.

Constant Vigilance

October 25th, 2003, 5:04 am

JKR is really into the coming of age story thing. She's really into a no holds barred moral education of Harry. But without preaching, she's telling a fun story. Alchemy must mean something more than just a stylistic devise. Could she have had a life crisis and be exploring it with the HP books? She clearly has said she's christian in a traditional sense, so she does not belive in alchemy as a mistic thing. But she could be taking a roundabout route for expressing moral/filosofical/religious concerns. Can anybody relate alchemy to JKR's life experience? Has she talked about this things in an interview? She did say the mirror of Erised was written after her mom's death. All this spiritual discipline has to be motivated by something drastic. I never worried about this stuff until I had suffered personal losses and started asking the big questions: maning of life, etc. I think Harry's going that way. So much is expected of him. He's got to ask why him. He litteraly has a destiny to fullfill so he has to master his own life, find his origin: who the heck was his father , a jerk or a hero. He has to master his emotions. Occlumency was a meditation, almost zen. He is going to evolve and end up a different person. Anybody read Alejandro jodorowsky's comic sagas? 90% of then are iniciatic stories. Haven't seen alchemy, but they are very mistic and filosofical. After reading this thread I thin Harry is similar to Jodo's White Lama. A kid that really suffers a lot but is really positive and good. A champion warrior really worried about being good and improving.

Anybody have any ideas for the motivation behind this deeply filosofical subtext for Harry Potter? Is JKR a filosofer?

whizbang121

October 25th, 2003, 5:51 am

He is going to evolve and end up a different person. I disagree. Harry will evolve and end up discovering himself. He won't be different. He will be self realized.
And, I think it's unfair to say that because JKR is a christian she obviously doesn't believe in alchemy. Most of the European alchemists of the middle ages professed Christianity. They don't contradict each other. The alchemist is seeking the same experience as the mystic - awareness, yoga, union. And we aren't ever not in a state of union with the creative force, we just forget and may choose to try to remember, to realize.

As for psycho analysing JKR, perhaps part of the background includes her divorce and negative feelings of worthlessness when she was a single mother in a difficult situation. Remember, her degrees are in French and classics. She is extremely well read.
__________________________________
This is from the Core of the Series thread: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=411&goto=newpost

Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

Have you ever read a JKR interview? She raises "when to shut up" to a very high standard. And in interviews she only discusses her work at the most superficial level. But when we begin to look at it as incorporating numerous layers, each contributing to the message, the richness of the material she has drawn on and woven in is astounding.
So alchemy, druidism, runes, mythology, wicca, eastern philosophies, children's literature and judeo/chrisitanity along with whatever I've forgotten due to an incomplete education, are all represented in layers of imbedded symbols.
In the thread "beyond the veil," the discussion centers around the ancient celts and their beliefs concerning samhein, or Halloween. I don't think we've scratched the surface yet, but I get chills at the possiblilities. In the prophesy thread, it was brought up that the line in the prophesy,
"... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ..." may be illuminated by the new testament chapter I Cor 13.
A couple of threads are devoted to uncovering the symbolism in children's literature, primarily Alice in Wonderland. The runes threads are also very revealing.

So we can't say that HP is about Alchemy or Greek mythology or Alice in Wonderland. It uses the symbolism of all these things and no doubt material we haven't recognised yet, to tell the story of the evolution of a soul to perfection.
Perhaps the titles you mentioned are telling the same tale. It is the universal story of us all.

Constant Vigilance

October 26th, 2003, 3:12 am

Wizbang: JKR said she felt worthless? And I thought she was just lonely. Well, the Dementors had to come from somewere.
I didn't know alchemy was not separated from organized religion. Many alchemists were consider heretics but it had not occured to me they could consider themselves a part of the church, like any other person. What was I thinking?

I always thought self realisation meant change. Probably because it´s hard to like oneself. I've spent some time not liking my life. Is that what you mean Whizbang? Does Harry have a problem accepting himself, or is it knowing himself? I'm afraid tonight I'm specially out of touch with the creative force.

The Black Adder

October 27th, 2003, 3:41 pm

I hope you all can find my observations useful to this very interesting discussion.
Okay, the challenge is to see how JKR uses the Alchemy symbolism in the HP books.
I've been looking over the Seven Steps of Transformation from one of the sites that was posted here. I have to assume that JKR is using these as a somewhat loose structural foundation for the seven books.

I think that like all human development, these stages are not clear cut. The "transformations" I think would be a little fuzzy and there may be leaps forward and then steps backwards along the way.

But in any case, I thought I would try to look at ways in which the five books thus far are crafted within this structure. The definitions of the Seven Steps are largely my interpretations, and so feel free to correct anything I've gotten wrong, or add important details I'm sure I've missed. Hopefully, some of my thoughts will be useful.

1. Calcination—The destruction of the ego and attachment to material objects. A process of humbling through life's trials.

PS/SS—One might say that Harry's whole first eleven years living with the Dursleys was a humbling trial. On his eleventh birthday, Harry is told that he is a wizard and finds that he has an identity and heritage of which he knew nothing about. He leaves the only home he's known to go to school at Hogwarts. He knows nothing of wizardry and encounters a teacher who in particular gives him a hard time. Harry passes through a number of trials in order to rescue the Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone.

2. Dissolution—A surfacing of unconscious self or buried memories, the undaming of held back waters or energies. Surfacing of feminine or intuitive side.

CoS—I believe the revealing of Harry as a parselmouth and its significance fits as a surfacing of an unconscious gift. I think the fact that the sorting hat could have put him into Slytherin, but that Harry chose Gryffindor is a meaningful part of Harry's identity, though we haven't been told the full significance yet.

Caves and underground tunnels are often symbols in literature for the subconscious, and so I believe the adventure in the Chamber of Secrets functions as a further revelation of Harry's buried or hidden self.

3. Separation—A separation from parental and societal restrictions to allow a re-surfacing of our true nature and self. This is a conscious process in which we review formerly hidden material and decide what to discard and what to reintegrate into our refined personality.

PoA--Being given the Marauder's Map along with his use of the Invisibility Cloak allows Harry to disregard many of the rules and restrictions placed upon him.

Obviously there is much "hidden material" about his parents and his godfather that comes to light in the course of this book. Harry makes a choice to believe that Sirius Black is innocent and accept him as his true godfather. He also accepts Remus Lupin as a friend eventhough he is a werewolf. These choices will set him at odds with wizarding society in general.

4. Conjunction—A recombination of elements to create a new, truer self. The joining of feminine and masculine sides, and an intuitive state of consciousness. The alchemists referred to this stage as the Lesser Stone, and after it is achieved, the adept is able to clearly discern what needs to be done to achieve lasting enlightenment, which is union with the Overself.

GoF—The challenges of the Triward Tournament bring out and highlight those elements that comprise Harry's true self—his flying ability, the help and support of his friends, his good heart, courage, and compassion. In order to survive Voldemort's attack in the graveyard, Harry must rely upon his intuition, the messages from the shadowy figures of the Priori Incantatem effect.

5. Fermentation—This is a two-stepped process that begins with the Putrefaction of the "child" from the Conjunction resulting in its death and resurrection to a new level of being. The Fermentation phase then begins with the introduction of new life into the product of Conjunction to strengthen it and insure its survival. The Fermentation process starts with the inspiration of spiritual power from Above that reanimates, energizes, and enlightens the alchemist. Fermentation is living inspiration from something totally beyond us. During Fermentation, we raise consciousness from the darkness of the animal body through personal meditation and planetary evolution. "Separate the Earth from Fire," it tells us, "the subtle from the gross, gently and with great Ingenuity."

OotP—I'm not sure which death, Harry's witness of the death of Cecil at the end of GoF, or the death of Sirius Black at the end of OotP, represents the death of "the child" of Putrefaction stage, but I'm sure that one if not both of them does.

I believe the "new life" referred to in the Fermentation stage would be Luna Lovegood, who brings a mystical/intuitive side more strongly into Harry's life, as well as perhaps the formation of the DA group, which strengthened Harry and insured his survival both emotionally and literally at the end of OotP.

Harry receives numerous "visions" in this book from both Voldemort and then through Snape's memories. The Occlumency lessons were the beginning of trying to "separate the Earth from Fire", or raise Harry from the fire of his emotions to a higher consciousness.

6. Distillation—The agitation and sublimation of psychic forces is necessary to ensure that no impurities from the inflated ego or deeply submerged id are incorporated into the next and final stage. Personal Distillation consists of a variety of introspective techniques that raise the content of the psyche to the highest level possible, free from sentimentality and emotions, cut off even from one’s personal identity. Distillation is the purification of the unborn Self -- all that we truly are and can be. It embodies the realization of higher love, combining the powers of Above and Below.

The Sixth Book—If indeed JKR is using the steps of Spiritual Alchemy Transformation as a structure for her books, then the sixth step of Distillation should give us some clues as to where she will go in The Sixth Book.

If I'm interpreting correctly, then it seems that there will be at least some attention given to the unresolved feud between Harry and Snape. It may be "agitated" further at first, as Harry's unresolved anger at the end of OotP indicated. But it appears that at some point this feud will need to be resolved somehow, or Harry and Snape to come to some sort of understanding.

The last hidden revelations of Harry's heritage and identity will need to come to light. It appears that Harry will need to find greater success in his Occlumency lessons, in order to begin the purification process, and find his capacity for higher love.

7. Coagulation—A new confidence, a Second Body which is a vehicle of consciousness reaching the highest aspirations and evolution of mind. Releases the Greater Philosopher's Stone which allows one to live on all levels of reality.

"Thus will you obtain the Glory of the Whole Universe. All Obscurity will be clear to you. This is the greatest Force of all powers, because it overcomes every Subtle thing and penetrates every Solid thing."

The Seventh Book—This level becomes a little more difficult to see how JKR might express it in Harry's education and evolution. While I can see taking Harry up through the Sixth Level, it seems a little much to believe that our yet immature, adolescent Harry could achieve this last stage in the course of only two more books. Perhaps the sixth level of purification might be extended out the length of these last two books, with a taste for what the seventh level can mean at the end. On the other hand, it does sound as if it is the acheivement of this level which allows Harry to vanquish Voldemort.

I have some further thoughts based on this analysis, but this is long enough for the moment.

whizbang121

October 27th, 2003, 6:53 pm

Black adder,

Wow. That was brilliant. :agree: Very cool. :tu:

Maybe we could use your work as a base and discuss each 'step in the process'/book seperately. It's almost too much to take in all at once.

1. Calcination—The destruction of the ego and attachment to material objects. A process of humbling through life's trials.

PS/SS—One might say that Harry's whole first eleven years living with the Dursleys was a humbling trial. On his eleventh birthday, Harry is told that he is a wizard and finds that he has an identity and heritage of which he knew nothing about. He leaves the only home he's known to go to school at Hogwarts. He knows nothing of wizardry and encounters a teacher who in particular gives him a hard time. Harry passes through a number of trials in order to rescue the Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone.
Harry's childhood with the Dursleys made him very self reliant, and one positive outcome of humbling is learning to accept and even ask for help. Harry learns who he can trust for help and rely on for support in his first year at Hogwarts, two luxuries he never had with the Dursleys. It doesn't seem that Harry had lots of material pleasures to be attached to at the Dursleys, but discovering he was extraordinarily well off didn't spoil him, either. Unlike many kids his age, he didn't run off and buy himself loads of presents with it. He knows it's there, but I don't think he'd be devastated if it disappeared suddenly.
As for destruction of the ego, I agree. The ego that is destroyed is one that's been damaged and filled with a sense of worthlessness. His new identity as a wizard and the son of Lily and James Potter is wide open to promise and possibility.

Hope everyone jumps in.

Constant vigilance,
JKR did say in an interview once that she had suffered from a sense of worthlessness. Perhaps she identified with this first process in the transformation.
Alchemy is very ancient, but like many other things, it was christianized. And while I'm not sure the church ever approved of it, Christian symbols were attached to it.
This link should take you to a JKR interview search engine.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/index.html

Constant Vigilance

October 27th, 2003, 8:21 pm

Thanks for the link Whizbang. I also liked Black Adder's post and think we sould discuss each one of the seven steps.

The calcination in Harry Potter book 1 looks quite interesting. Most of the iniciatic stories I've read show the hero leaving behind his childhood and starting a life of tribulations were they loose attachment to material objects and control their ego. But it's usually and end of childhood. The way I see it, Harry STARTS his childhood in Philosophers Stone as a previous step to attain adulthood. I mean he was a child before and had no responsibilities and was totaly inocent. He was also ignorant of his past and his place in the world. But he had not had any happy childhood experience. Somewhere he says he though he had been happy with his parents but did not remember.

In most stories the hero stops having fun when he meets the difficuties of the world: Prince Sidarta has a childhood in a palace and wen he sees the pains of the world becomes a beggar. Frodo would rather be in the Shire; in the movie version of Dune, Paul is told he can no longer wait to be in the mood for combat practice, the line The Sleeper must Awaken means he has to accept the loss of his home and father. In Jodorowsky's El Topo and the White Lama the protagonists literarily are forced as boys to bury/burn their toys, pictures of their mother and go and become men. Luke Skywalker wants adventure and exitement and what does he get: losses his foster parents, losses his first master and his second one tells him to stop daydreaming. On the other Hand, Harry gets to know love and frienship for the first time along with his new knowledge and responsibilities. And he learns how to have fun with Quidditch!

I guess you actually have to develop an ego before you can renounce it! I don't think the attachment to material objects has been faced as a problem. Harry was quite attached to his Nimbus! And when he lost it he got a better one to attach to, just ask Hermionie & Umbrige. Yes, he'd rather be adopted by the Weasly family than be ritch but I don't see him as specially not attached to the material world.

So in Hogwarts he knows responsibilities like saving the stone but he also gets all the fun stuff. It's quite latter that he has to leave that behind. Like a delayed action calcination. Mutant For Hire in his thread Magic as Metaphor for Adulthood says Quidditch is something Harry has to leave behind to be an adult, first to participate in the TriWizard Tournament, then to create Dumbledore's Army. Harry suffers because of that loss. That seems like part of the calcination we are looking for. Lupin and Sirius also talk a lot in that sense. Lupin: (I read this in Spanish, can't quote) the scene in PoA when Harry escapes to get candy in Hogsmeade runing undue risks. Sirius: "There's things worth dying for".

This process may be a very slow thing, may even take the entire series. I think the other stages are already at work. The Occlumency, Pensive experiences may be important for Dissolution and Separation. New things surface and Harry questions them. He is chosing what to belive about his past. I can't really see how he is separating from societie's restrictions, Harry's pretty responsible overall. But he does like to do what he thinks is right, not necesarily what's expected of him. Maybe that's away of seeing the "saving people thing", he does not care to be looked after, he's his own problem solver. He refuses to be a child and be protected by DD and the Order.

I hope this post is not a confusing mess.
I really like this thread!

whizbang121

October 27th, 2003, 8:59 pm

Thanks for the link Whizbang. I also liked Black Adder's post and think we sould discuss each one of the seven steps.

The calcination in Harry Potter book 1 looks quite interesting. Most of the iniciatic stories I've read show the hero leaving behind his childhood and starting a life of tribulations were they loose attachment to material objects and control their ego. But it's usually and end of childhood. The way I see it, Harry STARTS his childhood in Philosophers Stone as a previous step to attain adulthood. ...
In most stories the hero stops having fun when he meets the difficuties of the world: .....
On the other Hand, Harry gets to know love and frienship for the first time along with his new knowledge and responsibilities. And he learns how to have fun with Quidditch!
There is a small element of Harry rediscovering some of the feelings of his infancy in the Mirror of Erised. Then Dumbledore tells him it will be moved and that it does not do to live on dreams. This is a very condenced childhood and he must let it go even before he can take hold of it. But it seems like it might be part of this process.
I guess you actually have to develop an ego before you can renounce it! ...
Harry was quite attached to his Nimbus! And when he lost it he got a better one to attach to, just ask Hermionie & Umbrige....
So in Hogwarts he knows responsibilities like saving the stone but he also gets all the fun stuff. It's quite latter that he has to leave that behind. Like a delayed action calcination. Mutant For Hire in his thread Magic as Metaphor for Adulthood says Quidditch is something Harry has to leave behind to be an adult, first to participate in the TriWizard Tournament, then to create Dumbledore's Army. Harry suffers because of that loss. That seems like part of the calcination we are looking for.
This process may be a very slow thing, may even take the entire series. I think the other stages are already at work. The Occlumency, Pensive experiences may be important for Dissolution and Separation.
New things surface and Harry questions them.
This is a good point. I'm not sure if this is a part of the process of alchemy, but in reality, progressing to the next "level", the next book in this case, doesn't end the work of all the previous ones. It can actually bring them into better focus for more thorough understanding. But it get easier and goes more quickly with each progression.
... But he does like to do what he thinks is right, not necesarily what's expected of him....
He refuses to be a child and be protected by DD and the Order.
This is more of what we see in Book 5. But in book one, he's just beginning his work.
When the alchemist embarks on his journey, he knows he has chosen a particular path and work. Harry is doing the work without even realizing what he's doing. It seems spontaneous and unwitting, but it's his destiny.

silver ink pot

October 27th, 2003, 9:43 pm

:clap: :agree: :love:

Black Adder: Brilliant, Brilliant, Brilliant! Bravo!

And Whizbang and Constant Vigilance - Always an honor to read your posts! Wow! If this isn't the heart of the seven books, then I give up trying. But I think Whizbang makes an important point that these books are not "just" about any one thing. They are like alchemical potions - a pinch of this, a spoonful of that, a stone, a little fire, a little water.

Black Adder wrote:

CoS—I believe the revealing of Harry as a parselmouth and its significance fits as a surfacing of an unconscious gift. I think the fact that the sorting hat could have put him into Slytherin, but that Harry chose Gryffindor is a meaningful part of Harry's identity, though we haven't been told the full significance yet. Well, that also certainly sounds like the "one nature overcoming another nature" that people were talking about above.

OotP—I'm not sure which death, Harry's witness of the death of Cecil at the end of GoF, or the death of Sirius Black at the end of OotP, represents the death of "the child" of Putrefaction stage, but I'm sure that one if not both of them does.I think you are right - it may be that both represent this. Cedric is literally the child who dies. Sirius is the child-like father figure who dies. Many people here have written about Harry's future search for a new father figure - one who is not just a "pal," but one he can have a lasting relationship with. JKR has said there is a reason that Sirius had to die. I think the main reason would be for another father-figure to emerge.

I would add a third death - Harry's symbolic death as he is wrapped with the snake-like Voldemort. He surrenders to death, and because of that, he escapes death. But his death was so close, it is almost a real death. And because of all he learns during and after the MOM, he will never be the same again.

Personal Distillation consists of a variety of introspective techniques that raise the content of the psyche to the highest level possible, free from sentimentality and emotions, cut off even from one’s personal identity. Distillation is the purification of the unborn Self -- all that we truly are and can be. It embodies the realization of higher love, combining the powers of Above and Below.

The Sixth Book—If indeed JKR is using the steps of Spiritual Alchemy Transformation as a structure for her books, then the sixth step of Distillation should give us some clues as to where she will go in The Sixth Book.

If I'm interpreting correctly, then it seems that there will be at least some attention given to the unresolved feud between Harry and Snape. It may be "agitated" further at first, as Harry's unresolved anger at the end of OotP indicated. But it appears that at some point this feud will need to be resolved somehow, or Harry and Snape to come to some sort of understanding.

The last hidden revelations of Harry's heritage and identity will need to come to light. It appears that Harry will need to find greater success in his Occlumency lessons, in order to begin the purification process, and find his capacity for higher love.:agree: Yes, yes, yes! I was reading along thinking the same thing and you put it all into words so perfectly! The Harry/Snape resolution will be a major theme for the next two books. It has to be. Harry has already felt a kinship to Snape in Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. He sees Snape's dark mark in GoF, and recognizes that he, himself, is also a "marked man" in OotP. Through the Pensieve scene in OotP, Harry suddenly feels pity for Snape, which I think will overcome his urge to be angry at him. I think eventually he will be grateful to Snape, also, for making him tough. I think eventually someone - one of Harry's close friends (pick one!) will say: "You know who you remind me of the most? Snape!"

For one thing, Snape commands attention - when Umbridge comes to his class, JKR spends some time talking about how quiet the children are when his classroom door closes. He commands respect, which is what Harry wants to do in the DA. But I also think that Snape has to finally be more honest with Harry - maybe completing his own personal growth. If there had been trust between them, Harry would have come to Snape with his vision of Sirius at the Ministry, and things might have had a happy ending. Snape has to realize this!

Harry has one dream in OotP, I think, that has bearing on this. He dreams that he is stirring Snape in a big cauldron. This has to have meaning in the light of Alchemy, although I'm sure some would just say it is a funny image and indicative of Harry's angry feelings toward Snape. But in magic around the world, cooking something and eating its "essence" would give you power. Psychologically, it seems to mean that Harry is 'distilling' what he knows about Snape and how he feels about Snape, and his mind is swirling it around - alot like the Pensieve.

Constant vigilance,
JKR did say in an interview once that she had suffered from a sense of worthlessness. Perhaps she identified with this first process in the transformation.Whizbang: I, too, remember JKR saying that she had been through a major depression after her marriage fell apart. She went through poverty and unhappiness, and emerged. She writes like someone who has a deep understanding of all kinds of people based on her own experiences.

I know I'm writing alot here - but I have to say that Harry will have to learn not to over-sentimentalize his parents. He has to stop wearing his "heart on his sleeve" - as Snape said, or he will be no match for Voldemort. At some point, he has to learn exactly what happened to his parents. There are clues - big clues - that this will happen. The book, A Wizarding Geneology, exists at Grimmauld Place. He needs to read it at once. Petunia needs to show him her family album! Perhaps he will find some old letters of his mother's? He needs to find out his connection to Mark Evans. Somehow all of this will "distill" in his mind, and finally make sense.

This is such a fascinating topic. I feel honored every time I read here!

The Black Adder

October 27th, 2003, 10:10 pm

Whiz, CV, Glad you liked my "jumping off" outline. I think you're right to look at it step by step.

I also like that idea that Harry needed to be given a childhood before it could be taken away. The first book is the most light-hearted of them. In a way it is an introduction or prelude to the rest of the series. The 7 spells they have to overcome in order to reach the PS/SS becomes a kind of foreshadowing of what the later stories are all about.

In trying to identify the elements for each of the steps, I noticed that the level isn't actually reached until the end of each book. The events of each book are what brings him to the next level. So in a way, the books are one step behind. Does that make sense?

Bk 1 for example gives Harry the "childhood" that is then "taken away" at the end of the book, which perhaps should be said to be the true beginning of Calcination.

I also agree about elements of various steps occurring in later books, as well. My first thought as Harry was reacting to the Pensieve incident in Bk 5 was that this was Harry's first realization that his father was human and flawed, a necessary realization for a child to separate from their parents and begin to create their own identity. So yes, some elements will necessarily come a little later for Harry.

Silver Ink Pot--I see you just posted. I'm going to stop here and post and then read your after. Just too much to try to assimilate all at once!

whizbang121

October 28th, 2003, 6:18 am

I don't know where to begin. So much to think about.

Snape comes up a couple of times. In another thread, (I can't remember which) jordmundt6 posted a thought that suddenly struck a chord. I can't remember what he said, but what it reminded me of was in PoA when Snape subbed for Lupin in DADA class. He was meaner and more unreasonable than usual and the end result was an long assignment on werewolves. Only Hermione did it. The hissing and spitting and finally the assignment were designed to communicate information. He was telling them without telling them, that Lupin was a werewolf.

Now, Jordmundt6 said something about Snape pulling no punches with Harry concerning James. He hisses and spits and insults Harry and his father in the same sentence every chance he gets.
Is he trying to tell us something? Is this more than just, "Snape didn't like James," "they didn't get along," "he hates owing James a life debt?"
What is Snape telling us?

The Black Adder

October 28th, 2003, 2:35 pm

I think you are right - it may be that both represent this. Cedric is literally the child who dies. Sirius is the child-like father figure who dies... I would add a third death - Harry's symbolic death as he is wrapped with the snake-like Voldemort. He surrenders to death, and because of that, he escapes death. But his death was so close, it is almost a real death. And because of all he learns during and after the MOM, he will never be the same again.

Yes, I think you're right here on all counts. "Sirius the child-like father", very interesting insight. And sorry I wrote "Cecil" for Cedric before. :frown: Sometimes I get a mental block on names.

I agree totally on what you describe about the Snape-Harry relationship. (I forgot about Harry's dream about stirring Snape. Got to find that again) I'm not sure what Snape is trying to tell us per se, as Whizbang asks, but perhaps my thoughts below tie in somehow.

I hope this doesn't seem going off on a tangent, but I have some thoughts that relate to Snape I wanted to share. First, there was a question earlier on this thread about the symbolic meaning of the colors associated with Professor Snape, "black and yellow". I may have an answer for that. The colors black and yellow appear in descriptions of Level Five of the Transformation process. It is the level of Putrefaction of the Fermentation Level! See if this doesn't sound like Snape. (Maybe there is hope for the old boy yet!)

Fermentation
(This is from the Alchemy site before referenced)

You are emerging from the dark night of the Soul and entering into the brilliant light of pure Spirit.
The depths of darkness and depression that have marked your life in the recent past will now be transformed into the penetrating light of divine consciousness. Out of the utter blackness of Putrefaction comes the yellow ferment, which appears like a golden wax flowing out of the foul matter. Its arrival is announced by the formation of an iridescent, oily film the alchemists named the “Peacock’s Tail.”

Psychological Fermentation is the introduction of new life into the purified presence that you developed during Conjunction. This child of the Conjunction, however, is really just a gross melding of opposites of the personality that may still be contaminated with traces of ego, so it is necessary to "sacrifice" it to bring about its resurrection on a new level of being. During psychological death or Putrefaction, the child of the Conjunction, which is the strongest presence you can create within your earthbound personality, is exposed to the decadent humidity of your deepest and most clinging psychic components, the psychological manure in which most of us wallow.

This is the dark night of the soul, in which you realize how futile it can be to try to overcome the personal, social, genetic, and even astrological limitations to change. The enthusiasm of the Conjunction turns into a black mood, and there is an extinction of interest in life. At this point, you have to stubbornly persist to achieve enlightenment or relax into the dull slumber of mere physical existence. Like the white light of the Other Side seen by near-death experiencers, we finally leave the darkness and enter the bright light of resurrection as consciousness is restored on a higher level.

Fermentation then begins with the inspiration of spiritual power from Above that reanimates, energizes, and enlightens the blackened soul. Fermentation is a living, loving inspiration from something totally beyond us, something existing wholly Above in the realm of pure mind.

************

Again tangentially related, as I was trying to analyze the structure of the books in relation to Alchemy, it also occurred to me how at least some characters take on various aspects of the psyche. I don't know whether this has been discussed yet in other threads. Now I don't see the characters as solely in these roles, but I think it's just one more "layer" of meaning that JKR has infused in the writing.

Hermione—Rational Thought
Ron —Emotion
Dumbledore—The Inner Child (his love of candy and nonsense, his encouragement of Harry to explore with his Invisibility Cloak--though I also see him as a mentor, protector, grandfather figure, and now as the ultimate alchemist or Harry's Spiritual Guide)
Snape—Superego or "Parent" (his obsession with Harry's rule-breaking, and his desire to be the DADA teacher--"Da-Da")
Voldemort—The Id (the unpleasant aspects of his subconscious, meeting him underground in CoS)
Luna Lovegood—Intuition
Gilderoy Lockhart--Vanity (becomes confused and forgotten as Harry's celebrity gets twisted and distorted in the newspapers) :)

McGonagall--I feel like she's a part of his Superego also, although not quite as strict. A maternal figure? Not sure about her in this regard.

I have a friend who says that all characters in our dreams are just different aspects of our own psyche. Dreams are simply us talking to ourselves, or the different conflicting impulses in our head "talking" to each other in order to try to resolve the conflicts. Again, I see these possible roles for the characters as only one layer of meaning and purpose.

This is a terrific Thread and discussion! I'm looking forward to your replies and thoughts.

Sinistra

October 28th, 2003, 4:28 pm

One example of JKR's genius is that through her symbols, she can be "interpreted" in various ways and through various disciplines.

Western literature has evolved from Renaissance, and Medieval etc. etc, and each new set of symbols brought into our "group consciousness" adds to the depth of understanding of "the human condition". A really good book (OK, I will say Great Book--but that's my personal flag to wave), will be able to be interpreted on many levels, and be an interesting read also. So a Christian will find much rich Christian symbolism, someone on a different path will see paralells to the runes, or Buddhism, or Wicca or alchemy or whatever. Symbols speak on many levels, and we interpret the symbols we perceive in the context of our personal knowledge and understanding. So we tend to see the symbolism in our personal context first, because that is what we are familiar with. But those same symbols can be relevant in other genres as well.

Alchemy has "evolved" through the centuries from an actual discipline to a literary device, and it works, otherwise it wouldn't be used. JKR is so well-read and highly educated that she can borrow symbols from many places, and weave them together into a believable whole.

One reason the books are so popular is that she has created a world which is believable and works. She has this in common with Lewis and Tolkein and others who have created viable worlds which can stand on their own. This is why fan fiction works so well. She has created something that can be easily recognized and others are able to "play" in her world and readers can say, "yes, that works" or "no, that's not right--it should go differently."

Anyhow, the alchemy analysis is a good one, and many good points have been made here.

Constant Vigilance

October 28th, 2003, 4:36 pm

I always knew Snape was putrid! I hope he ferments nicely. Hight time he did that. After all, he is the professional alchemist, he should be doing some evolution, but all we have seen is how he's stuck in the past. Notice how Sirius and Lupin never denied the charge of James being a bully? They just added he grew out of it. I expect Snape should do the same. Eventually. I hope. Well, maybe. Not like he's doing a tremendous effort. "I'm so better than the rest of the Order, I do usefull things and take risks". What is everybody else doing? Taking a carribian cruise? This guy would not recognice humbleness if it danced naked in front of him in Dobby's tea cozy!

But if he did improve, wouldn't he be a great father figure for Harry? He could teach Harry how to get evil out of his sistem. Lupin can do that too (he's a werewolf, he's got an evil inside) but he left Howarts. He could have stayed, like Hagrid after Skeeter exposed him as a half giant. Snape stays in Howarts, he never gives up the hope of being the DADA teacher. It's his grail. Think of the humiliation he endures! Quirrell got the job faking cowardice, Lockheart was low standards incarnate, Lupin an outcast that reminded Snape of his humiliating youth, Moody was the man that caught him and sent him to trial and Dolores, don't get me started with her... How many years did you say you did not get the DADA post? You gotta admit the man has persistance!

Everybody expects Lupin to be the definitive father figure for Harry. I have faith in Snape since he is an alchemist and I'm convinced we are onto something here (unless it's the world's biggest red herring). It's just that Snape is so hatefull.

I also like the post that said Cedric represented the death of childhood and Sirius the death of the idealized father figure. All the more reason to know what Snape is all about. Isn't the superego supposed to help you?

Apart from Harry and Snape, is any other character evolving in a similar way? Whe have not seen Neville's and Ginny's evolution, just the fait accompli. But we get to see more of Hermionie and she's doing a lot of thinking. What's going on with Ron? Is he growing?

And about Luna: she belives what cannot be seen. Could she represent faith? Intuition also sounds good. She knows things, but her rationale is unlike Hermionie's.

Sinistra

October 28th, 2003, 5:04 pm

Constant Vigilance

October 28th, 2003, 7:10 pm

We did see a bit of evolution in Ginny and Neville. Ginny seems to have come to terms with being possessed by Voldemort--or Tom Riddle which isn't necessarily the same thing IMHO. Neville really came into his own in OotP and I hope with a wand of his own, he will improve more in the last two books.

Luna as faith/ intuition/ belief in those things which are not material but which matter nonetheless. Oh yes. And also Luna as she who helps initiate Harry into the higher mysteries. She has knoweldge and understanding which has been lacking up to now.
Yes, but why don´t we know how it happened. As we say
in Chile, Ginny was so shy, she would be expelled from a shyness championship for being to shy. But all of a sudden she's wizardkind's answer to Lara Croft. We did miss on the details. At least we have a motive for Neville: family honour and admiration for Harry. How will Snape react to a Neville that is the tpo of class at potions? Or to a Neville that graduates to be DADA teacher?

Luna initiating Harry is interesting. She would be like a feminist character in the Marion Zimmer B. school. You know, like the feminists that study the pagan ethos of the celts. They belive celts had a "female" cult centered on intuition as oposed to masculine raw data crunching. I don't know if that's really plausible but it could be a possible aspect of Luna. After all, she represents the moon, a traditional female simbol in ancient societies. Coincidently, the greeks went the Hermione way and thought the moon caused madness. Remember when feminists complained about the lack of strong female characters in Harry Potter? Luna could be a feminist character.

I´m curious as to what will Harry learn from Luna, Neville and Ginny. Specially Luna because she´s clearly a link to the more esoteric aspects of HP. She's a ravenclaw, is she good at potions? Does Trelawy say she is in touch with her inner eye (as if she could know). I had not seen her as a mentor figure before but I´m seeing her like that now.

The Black Adder

October 29th, 2003, 12:30 am

Remember when feminists complained about the lack of strong female characters in Harry Potter? Luna could be a feminist character.

Lack of strong females--? What are Hermione and Professor McGonagall? :rolleyes: Dolores Umbridge was about as feminist as you can get!

I do agree that Luna, representing intuition and faith must be going to play an important role in the upcoming books since the transformations should lead Harry into more reliance upon the mind and higher consciousness.

I would like to see Snape evolve too, and I agree he could be a terrific father fig, but do we really want him to start wearing Peacock colors? :D

One thing I've always found interesting is that Harry learned the disarming spell (Expelliarmus) from watching Snape in the duelling club, a spell that has saved his life against Voldemort as well as the Death Eaters. He's already learning more from O' Sev than he's willing to acknowledge.

dorcasderr

November 4th, 2003, 3:26 am

Black Adder wrote
"One thing I've always found interesting is that Harry learned the disarming spell (Expelliarmus) from watching Snape in the duelling club, a spell that has saved his life against Voldemort as well as the Death Eaters. He's already learning more from O' Sev than he's willing to acknowledge."

It seems to me that both Harry and Snape have a long summer of soul searching ahead of them. They have both seen into the interior of the other. Perhaps this will be the catylist for BOTH of them to evolve and come to a truce with each other.

whizbang121

November 8th, 2003, 7:02 am

Harry has learned tons from O' Sev, not the least the assignments on various potions and the properties of the ingredients used. Harry felt as if his potion O.W.L. came off better than he'd hoped. So Severus the alchemist has been reaching him at some level. The thing with Snape is that to understand what he's saying at any given time, you have to remove all abusive and unkind parts of the sentence to see what the :censored: he's talking about. This seems like an acknowledgement of all the crabby alchemists of history. I often think of Isaac Newton, one of the crabbiest and demeaning of his age. He had a long running dispute with another scientist about something. I should look it up. They would rip each other up at scientific meetings. Got verrrry personal as I recall. I wonder if that's related to the Severus / James relationship. Hmmmmm......
I think I'll check on that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a link to Newton's biography. Several interesting elements.
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Newton.html
In 1672 Newton was elected a fellow of the Royal Society after donating a reflecting telescope. Also in 1672 Newton published his first scientific paper on light and colour in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. The paper was generally well received but Hooke and Huygens objected to Newton's attempt to prove, by experiment alone, that light consists of the motion of small particles rather than waves. The reception that his publication received did nothing to improve Newton's attitude to making his results known to the world. He was always pulled in two directions, there was something in his nature which wanted fame and recognition yet another side of him feared criticism and the easiest way to avoid being criticised was to publish nothing. Certainly one could say that his reaction to criticism was irrational, and certainly his aim to humiliate Hooke in public because of his opinions was abnormal. However, perhaps because of Newton's already high reputation, his corpuscular theory reigned until the wave theory was revived in the 19th century.

Newton's relations with Hooke deteriorated further when, in 1675, Hooke claimed that Newton had stolen some of his optical results. Although the two men made their peace with an exchange of polite letters, Newton turned in on himself and away from the Royal Society which he associated with Hooke as one of its leaders.
After suffering a second nervous breakdown in 1693, Newton retired from research. The reasons for this breakdown have been discussed by his biographers and many theories have been proposed: chemical poisoning as a result of his alchemy experiments;
Newton's assistant Whiston had seen his rage at first hand. He wrote:-

"Newton was of the most fearful, cautious and suspicious temper that I ever knew."

Interesting. I've read that the dispute with Hooke was extremely irrational and emotional on both sides.

silver ink pot

November 9th, 2003, 1:00 am

:huh: :) Great stuff about Newton, Whizbang!

I think it is fascinating that he might have poisoned himself accidentally! My husband just informed me that he put a book on hold at the library called, Isaac Newon, The Last Alchemist. When I get it, I'll write a report for all of you!

I remembered something I had read about another Alchemist - Paracelsus.
Here is a quote from the man himself:

http://www.thelemicknights.org/ootmc/paracelsus/paracelsus.html (http://www.thelemicknights.org/ootmc/paracelsus/paracelsus.html)

“I know that I am a man who does not speak to every one only that which might please him, and I am not used to give submissive answers to arrogant questions. I know my ways, and I do not wish to change them; neither could I change my nature. I am a rough man, born in a rough country. I've been brought up in pine-woods, and I may have inherited some knots. That which seems to me polite and amiable may appear unpolished to another, and what seems silk in my eyes may be but home spun to you.”

From what I have read, Paracelsus was despised by the other men of medicine of his time, and even though he was charitable and often did medical treatments for free, he managed to offend everyone!

whizbang121

November 9th, 2003, 3:48 am

He doesn't sound the least bit crabby or difficult. He had high standards. (Virgo?) Seems like alchemists were getting a bad rap for their efforts. Are we to assume that Snape is also vicitimized by those who misunderstand his work?
But he wasn't a pleasant kid when he arrived.
Still.....

dorcasderr

November 9th, 2003, 4:03 am

whizbang121

November 9th, 2003, 4:23 am

He certainly doesn't seem to be victimized at Hogwarts. The only people who despise him THERE are students, and with good cause. But perhaps in the outer world he has received bad treatment. Maybe that is one reason he is in a dungeon at Hogwarts rather than out in the larger Wizarding world.
I suspect that Hogwarts offers a certain amount of protection to Snape. Up until the OotP, he may have been there for his own safety. Perhaps part of what Dumbledore was asking Snape to do at the end of GoF was leave the protected confines of the school and venture out to make contact with the dark lord's servants. Didn't Snape tell Harry during occluemency lessons that Hogwarts was magically protected and that time and space mattered in Magic?
(Inverse proportion ratio, I'll bet. :agree: ) ;)

Passing thought.

dorcasderr

November 9th, 2003, 4:37 am

Good points whizbang121. Even if it is not for his physical safety that Snape is at Hogwarts it could be for his emotional safety.

silver ink pot

November 9th, 2003, 6:41 am

Whizbang and Dorcas! You both make interesting points about Snape leaving his safe haven. I get that feeling when I read Goblet of Fire and Snape tells Karkaroff that he won't leave Hogwarts. Of course, we do see him go in and out of Grimmauld Place, which is in London. JKR mentions that McGonagall looked strange in Muggle Clothes, but she doesn't mention what Snape looked like! I'd love to see him in a suit and tie, wouldn't you? :p :rotfl:

I agree about the Alchemists having high standards. I had a chemistry professor once who had a reputation of perfectionism, but he was one of my favorite teachers. He just had higher standards and expected alot from the students. I find when I reread the Potter books that my favorite scenes are the Potions class scenes, due to Snape's commanding presence. Snape isn't fair to Harry and is outright cruel to Hermione at times, but since these books are from Harry's point of view, we don't really know how he acts to the other students. Does he really overlook Crabbe and just pick on Neville and Harry? Does he ever say anything mean to the Hufflepuffs or the Ravenclaws? We don't know.

Funny to think of Snape as a Virgo! I know so many Virgos and some of them really are difficult to be around! But my daughter is a Virgo and I love her so much! To a Virgo, details are everything! ;) Virgo is an earth sign (hence, the dungeon:agree: ). Virgos sometimes have a link to growing things (hence, the giant herbology textbook used in Potions class:rolleyes: ). Virgos are often concerned with health matters and nutrition/medicine - you could find many examples of that in the list of potions we know about!:huh: Virgos are intellectuals ruled by the planet Mercury!:)

Anyway, back to Alchemy. Someone had a theory about James and Lily being Unspeakables or scientists within the MOM. After reading about Newton and Paracelsus and the problems they had with colleagues, I wonder if Snape had a professional falling-out with James. Maybe James wouldn't listen to one of Snape's theories, or he was misusing one of Snape's formulas somehow?

Red Herring

November 9th, 2003, 3:55 pm

Hi everybody! I've been following this thread faithfully, but haven't managed to post. Lots of good stuff here (not that I remember much of it now). :rolleyes:

Anyway, I think I found a goodie that hasn't been mentioned before: the word "auror" is from the Latin aurum meaning GOLD! So I guess that means Harry will become an auror if he succeeds.

There was other stuff I wanted to say, but I have no idea what it was. I'll post again if I ever figure it out. :D

silver ink pot

November 9th, 2003, 5:26 pm

Red Herring! Great discovery! I think the dictionary is the best research tool for Harry Potter!

Anyway, I think I found a goodie that hasn't been mentioned before: the word "auror" is from the Latin aurum meaning GOLD! So I guess that means Harry will become an auror if he succeeds.

:wow: :wow: :wow:

deadlocked

November 9th, 2003, 6:14 pm

Anyway, I think I found a goodie that hasn't been mentioned before: the word "auror" is from the Latin aurum meaning GOLD! So I guess that means Harry will become an auror if he succeeds.

:nc:

whizbang121

November 10th, 2003, 3:09 am

... Goblet of Fire and Snape tells Karkaroff that he won't leave Hogwarts. Of course, we do see him go in and out of Grimmauld Place, which is in London.
That's true, but it is after GoF. But what if what Dumbledore was asking Snape to do at the end of GoF was leave the safety of Hogwarts to work for the Order?

I agree about the Alchemists having high standards. I had a chemistry professor once who had a reputation of perfectionism, but he was one of my favorite teachers. He just had higher standards and expected alot from the students. Got to be careful with those chemicals. Don't want any accidents with the mercury or anything else. :no:
Does he ever say anything mean to the Hufflepuffs or the Ravenclaws? We don't know.
The Gryffindors and Slytherins have potions together, (nice planning). I don't remember seeing Snape teaching Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs, except .......
When Snape subbed for Lupin, were there Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs in that class?
Funny to think of Snape as a Virgo! I know so many Virgos and some of them really are difficult to be around! But my daughter is a Virgo and I love her so much! My grandmother was a Virgo. She was difficult and we adored each other. :agree:
Have you seen the virgo chart for Snape in the HP astrology thread? It's in the common room.
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=615171&highlight=train#post615171
Post 72.

Anyway, back to Alchemy. Someone had a theory about James and Lily being Unspeakables or scientists within the MOM. After reading about Newton and Paracelsus and the problems they had with colleagues, I wonder if Snape had a professional falling-out with James. Maybe James wouldn't listen to one of Snape's theories, or he was misusing one of Snape's formulas somehow?
I found the term "unspeakable" in the context of celtic bards who were supposed to "articulate the unspeakable." I think it means to explain the sublime in mundane terms. I may be being romantic in this interpretion. :blush: :rolleyes:

dorcasderr

November 10th, 2003, 5:33 am

Silver inkpot wrote: JKR mentions that McGonagall looked strange in Muggle Clothes, but she doesn't mention what Snape looked like! I'd love to see him in a suit and tie, wouldn't you? Yup, I would! And hey, I'M a Virgo and I'm not difficult....

whizbang121

November 10th, 2003, 5:51 am

And hey, I'M a Virgo and I'm not difficult....
:D Of course, you're not. Maybe you have high standards? Where would we be without you?

dorcasderr

November 10th, 2003, 6:04 am

Thank you, thank you! However, if you saw the way I keep house you might wonder about the high standards....Other things are more important to me! When, in the weeks of Virgo, do you think Snape was born? Also, Hermione was born in September too. I always wonder when these September babies were born, as I am one. (Not that I'm not getting off-topic...oh well) Reading about all the Alchemical allusions in Harry Potter reminds me of another authoress who draws heavily on the same in many of her books, that is Judith Merkle Riley. Has anyone out there read her books and noticed the Alchemy in them?

silver ink pot

November 10th, 2003, 7:29 am

Dorcasderr: No, I've never heard of Judith Merkle Riley. I'll look for her books. Thanks.

Just for the record, I love Virgos! Some of the very best friends I've ever had have been Virgos, and I mean that sincerely! And of course, my dear daughter was born on September 7th - perhaps that is the mystical number 7 that we keep talking about?

Definitely "high standards" Whizbang!

By the way, I am just a disorganized "Cancer" who loves her home, but hates housework! I much prefer reading or gardening to housework any day of my life!

One big thing Cancers and Virgos have in common - they both love to read!

Sabine

November 10th, 2003, 7:32 am

whizbang121

November 10th, 2003, 2:23 pm

Wouldn't it be also realted to the word "aurora" which means dawn.

It was the name of roman goddess - the greeks named her Eos.

Sabine
And to succeed in turning base metal into Gold is one of the goals of the alchemist.

We can never "nail" people by their sunsigns, or even a whole accurate chart, for that matter. :agree: And at best we can spot tendencies and trends.

I put Snape in August, because I was working on the premise that he might be Regulus Black. So I gave Sirius the Libra birthday, late Sept - early Oct and put Snape's in August so they would be nearly a year apart in age and in the same year at school. The I manipulated the chart to give him Capricorn rising. This gave us no planets in Scorpio, a sign we all thought very Snapey, but it did give me a "train wreck" something like six planets including the sun in the eight house which is the house of scorpio. It produced a very interesting chart. Of course, Snape is a fictional character, so I don't have a clue who's chart this is..... :lol:
But Sinistra is the unchallenged astrologer on the thread. At best, I'm an advanced dabbler. :rolleyes:

Serpentine

November 10th, 2003, 2:49 pm

Anyway, I think I found a goodie that hasn't been mentioned before: the word "auror" is from the Latin aurum meaning GOLD So I guess that means Harry will become an auror if he succeeds.

Gold, like the Snitch/Caduceus? Hmm, interesting. James was a Seeker too (and nicked the Snitch - sorry, can't get that one out of my mind), and with Quidditch not just being a ball game like soccer but a metaphor for something different on an alchemical level, he could have been either an Auror as well or an Unspeakable. What do the Unspeakables do down there in the DoM anyway?

Black Adder, whizbang, Constant Vigilance, silver ink pot: great observations about the seven steps and seven books! :wow: :tu: And I agree, the conflict between Harry and Snape and its resolution is very probably going to be a major theme of Book 6.

I hope this doesn't seem going off on a tangent, but I have some thoughts that relate to Snape I wanted to share. First, there was a question earlier on this thread about the symbolic meaning of the colors associated with Professor Snape, "black and yellow". I may have an answer for that. The colors black and yellow appear in descriptions of Level Five of the Transformation process. It is the level of Putrefaction of the Fermentation Level! See if this doesn't sound like Snape. (Maybe there is hope for the old boy yet!)

It sounds very much like Snape indeed - maybe that's where he's stuck in his inner transformation. Good job, Black Adder! :tu: And if the theory about Harry's seven steps in seven books holds true, Snape might be in for a transformation in the 6th book too. Either by resolving his issues with Harry, or by getting a love interest (I posted a theory about it on the 1st page of the AASS Mk.4 thread, post 26), or both. It could fit, for the 6th step seems to be about higher love. And with the transformation completed, he might at last be able to get the DADA position he wants so much, and even become a kind of father figure for Harry. Positive feelings seem to be important for DADA, just as you need negative feelings resp. evil intent for Dark Arts and the Unforgivables.

Whizbang, he does have traits of Virgo, but I still think that he's more Scorpio and Capricorn. :D Most of all Scorpio. My suggestion is Scorpio with Capricorn rising and two planets in Virgo.

"I'm so better than the rest of the Order, I do usefull things and take risks". What is everybody else doing? Taking a carribian cruise? This guy would not recognice humbleness if it danced naked in front of him in Dobby's tea cozy!

Ahem, I don't get the impression that this is his attitude towards everybody in the Order. :no: Snape has his issues with Sirius, and it is with him he argues, but we don't have any evidence that he thinks himself better than all the other Order members as well. E.g. he seems to get along with McGonagall well, and she is in the Order too. Bill and the twins don't like him, but I guess that's just because he's a hated teacher. And he is (and has been) doing risky spying work during the 1st and 2nd war without getting any major recognition so far. Humble enough, I'd say. But I don't blame him for craving any kind of recognition he can get, it's sparse enough.

The Black Adder

November 10th, 2003, 4:55 pm

Wow, I'm glad to find more postings on this thread again!

Whizbang121, Silver Ink Pot--interesting personal information on Newton and Parcelous. I wouldn't doubt it if a good number of those alchemists died of chemical poisoning working with mercury and lead and what have you.

It sounds very much like Snape indeed - maybe that's where he's stuck in his inner transformation. Good job, Black Adder! :tu: And if the theory about Harry's seven steps in seven books holds true, Snape might be in for a transformation in the 6th book too. Either by resolving his issues with Harry, or by getting a love interest (I posted a theory about it on the 1st page of the AASS Mk.4 thread, post 26), or both.

It could fit, for the 6th step seems to be about higher love. And with the transformation completed, he might at last be able to get the DADA position he wants so much, and even become a kind of father figure for Harry. Positive feelings seem to be important for DADA, just as you need negative feelings resp. evil intent for Dark Arts and the Unforgivables.

I agree with your thoughts wholeheartedly, Serpentine, and hope that we do begin to see some resolution or transformation in the Snape-Harry arena in the next book, though it could get nastier before it gets better.

I don't think Snape necessarily needs a love interest per se. In fact, "higher love" tends to be more about brotherly love or love for one's fellow man or mankind. Romantic love tends to be a more specialized situation that I would hope for him for down the road.

I think coming to some kind of peace with the past and being able to make some kind of empathetic connection to his students in general, and with Harry in particular, would do the trick at this point. I can't help feel like there was promise of it in Bk 5, during the Occlumency lessons and Snape's help in Umbridge's office and with the situation with Sirius, but that Harry's own unreadiness sort of pushed it all back for the time being.

Constant Vigilance

November 10th, 2003, 5:21 pm

Wow, I'm glad to find more postings on this thread again!
I don't think Snape necessarily needs a love interest per se. In fact, "higher love" tends to be more about brotherly love or love for one's fellow man or mankind. Romantic love tends to be a more specialized situation that I would hope for him for down the road.

I think coming to some kind of peace with the past and being able to make some kind of empathetic connection to his students in general, and with Harry in particular, would do the trick at this point. I can't help feel like there was promise of it in Bk 5, during the Occlumency lessons and Snape's help in Umbridge's office and with the situation with Sirius, but that Harry's own unreadiness sort of pushed it all back for the time being.

I'm glad too. This is one of my favorite Threads!

I also feel that Snape made some sort of commitment with Harry on the Umbrige situation. I expect he gets some sort of near normal relationship with Harry. Hey, they don't have to love each other, but with Voldy on the loose they have a proffessional interest in teamwork.

I also would have mixed feelings on a romantic interest for Snape. It would humanize him but I sudder at the thought of him having kids. The world is not ready for more Snapes!

Yes Serpentine, Snape shows respect to Mc Gonnagall and DD. He's only mean to kids and Sirius (who can't leave the house to beat him up). Boy, does he need to evolve. And not just from an alchemist's point of view, he's not to evolved in the humanity department. Something has to change about this. Harry's bound to explode sooner than latter. And Neville too.

Serpentine

November 10th, 2003, 9:10 pm

True, "higher love" doesn't necessarily mean romantic love, rather love between humans caring for each other - Greek "agape" rather than "eros", apparently. I'd like to see Snape happy at least once though, sigh. He seems to have had such an unhappy life. That's also why I don't want him to have had a thing for Lily, because we all know that she ended up with his nemesis, "Snitchnick" James. Yet another loss in an already long row of unhappy events. :no:

Back to the subject... Could it be that the root of his Worst Memory was that it crushed his ability to care for and trust other people ("agape"), and thus "got him stuck on the 5th step"? Not only the Marauders humiliated him in public, no-one would step in for him, even his Slytherin friends were conspicuously absent - as if he weren't worth to be cared for. Only Lily did step in, and trying to preserve his dignity (boys of that age seem to find it terrible to be saved by a girl), he turned her away himself. Possibly he'd also hate himself for it later, for kind of beating away a hand extended in friendship - I doubt that after that she'd ever step in for him again. And he'd have become the suspicious and bitter person he seems to be now. He needs to relearn trust and caring for others, and that he himself is worth to be trusted and cared for.

I don't remember seeing Snape teaching Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs, except .......
When Snape subbed for Lupin, were there Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs in that class?

I've just reread that part, but only Gryffindor students were mentioned. Same in Lupin's Boggart lesson, by the way. If there were students from any other House present, they were not mentioned at all.

Sabine

November 11th, 2003, 7:16 pm

Sorry if this really stupid.

I cleaned up my favourites the other day and I found a link. I remember once trembling somewhere over the words "One whom naught may be said" and I did a search for that.

But I'm not deep enough in alchemy and all the other things that you all mention on this thread. So I can't judge if this is "just trash" or something with a basis to it.

So thats the link http://www.esotericastrologer.org/EA%20Essays/EAessaysMDR3.htm

maybe its usefull for something.

Sabine

ProngsLives

November 11th, 2003, 10:13 pm

hem good one i will have to keep an eye on that
luv rachel

Ellen

November 12th, 2003, 2:57 am

On the issue of the four types of love - eros, agape, phillios[sp?], and storge - (yeah, makes me think someone has probably connected them to the four elements but I won't be going there), I read up two theories on the name Sturgis. One is that it comes from Old Norse for "hostage of Thor." The other is that it comes from Greek storge, meaning affection, especially affection between parent and child. Interesting, given that Sturgis Podmore may be related to Podmore of the headless hunt.

More alchemically, Ron's Uncle Bilius. Bilius would seem to be bile. Yellow bile was the bodily humor associated with fire, the element of Gryffindor.

It's worth mentioning that Ron's relatives are largely Sirius' relatives and that Bilius died not long after seeing a large, black dog.

Percy's middle name is Ignatius, from the Greek for fire. Hopefully, that may suggest he really will show he's a Gryffindor.

whizbang121

November 12th, 2003, 3:40 am

True, "higher love" doesn't necessarily mean romantic love, That's true, but the implication of the alchemical union is that it's related to Tantra. A partner is not reauired, but it's sure helpful. the point is that sexual energy is gradually raised up throught the seven energy centers, chakras, to the crown of the head where illumination is achieved. Along the way, "love " evolves within the context of each center and is also purified at the crown chakra. At this point, love is no longer an emotion. It is a consciousness. It is the enlightened one's consciousness. Love is substantial.
"Snitchnick" James. Ohhhh. that's gonna stick. :agree:

Not only the Marauders humiliated him in public, no-one would step in for him, even his Slytherin friends were conspicuously absent [/quote] It was the day they took their OWLS, so they were in the fifth year. The older students, Snape's friends, may not have been around, or they may have already graduated

And he'd have become the suspicious and bitter person he seems to be now. He needs to relearn trust and caring for others, and that he himself is worth to be trusted and cared for. True, but it looks like he was already suspicious and bitter when he arrived.

I've just reread that part, but only Gryffindor students were mentioned. Same in Lupin's Boggart lesson, by the way. If there were students from any other House present, they were not mentioned at all.
Oh, well. :blush: Thanks for checking.

dorcasderr

November 13th, 2003, 12:08 am

Whiabang said:
"True, but it looks like he was already suspicious and bitter when he arrived".

Ain't it the truth! His general outlook on life no doubt goes right back to that other memory...the one where he was a small boy. We never saw the rest of it, but it didn't look as though it ended prettily...

silver ink pot

November 13th, 2003, 5:40 am

. That's also why I don't want him to have had a thing for Lily, because we all know that she ended up with his nemesis, "Snitchnick" James.

:D :lol: :agree: That is so funny!

And I've learned a new word here tonight: Storge.

I think that word has implications for these books. In this piece I found, the writer talks about "love of the familiar," which reminded me of the way Harry feels about Hogwarts and his teachers, and how he calls it home. Also this writer makes the point that "storge" is the sort of love you feel when someone isn't there, which might have implications now that Sirius Black "isn't there" for him any more. Also, I thought of the times Hagrid and Dumbledore have been away, and how much they are missed.

http://highsorcery.com/words.html

Storge is familial love. Storge is more precisely the love of the familiar. Storge is the least pretentious and least demanding of the loves, philia also has (with the possible exception of agape) the least requirements for love, basically that the beloved be simply around the person often. It is interesting that storge can be extended to animals and inanimate objects as well as people. Storge is actually most noticible when its object has been removed. Storge is probably the biggest factor in crying at funerals and wakes.

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 5:52 am

sounds like the major cause of homesickness, too.
New thread in the quidditch pitch for following trains of thought on HP interpretations without having to stay on topic. Lots of straying in some of the more interesting topics as we begin to expand our theories.
Like now, I'd like to look for the point that Snape became an alchemist.

Anyway, it's called layers in harry potter.
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20403
SIP, hope you don't mind if I use that great quote about the spartans again.

dorcasderr

November 17th, 2003, 4:14 am

Jaded_Wanderer

November 17th, 2003, 9:37 am

Not entirely sure that this fits in but there was stuff posted earlier in the thread about processes of purification, etc., & when I was researching for my religion assignment (nupid private schooling lol) i came across this in the back of my bible (since when do bibles have indexes?!):

Nimbus: A circle or halo of light which surround the head of Christ or one of the saints in pictures, etc.. The use of the nimbus is restricted to those worthy of veneration, since it is symbolic of grace and virtue.

So I was thinking that maybe the fact that Harry got a Nimbus 2000 broom before anyone else was a symbol of how much more advanced he was than the others in that process. I know the Slytherin's got them the next year, but I was thinking maybe that was trying to say that people can fake and pay their way to the top of the ladder, and appear really wise/good, etc., but that people who do that lose (Slytherin lost the Cup....didn't they...?). Anyways, just some random thoughts, hope it made a little sense. Now - let the ridicule begin!! :D

Jill

November 17th, 2003, 9:52 am

Indeed this thread has strayed (perhaps not erred, but definitely strayed). As to when Snape became an Alchemist, hmmm...I imagine his interest in the subject was awakened at the same time as his interest in potions in general. As to whether an Alchemist needs higher study than Hogwarts provides...probably. If Snape has studied enough to qualify as an Alchemist then I imagine he must have studied with an establiched Alchemist. Nicholas Flamel? Albus Dumbledore? The books certainly give us no hint of this.

Perhaps Snape does not need to study with Nicholas Flamel or Albus Dumbledore but then saying that Snape does study as he has all the tools of an alchemist within his room at Hogwarts. There might have been a hint that Snape was working for Albus Dumbledore, I mean Dumbledore acknowledge Snapes abilities and stated that he was the best potions master around. Not exact words and I do not have the books on me but I think that is what he mentioned. Snape also makes most of the potions for the hospital wing at the school and well definetly works for Dumbledore as he is a teacher at Hogwarts. What does interest me is the title Snape has, Master, that is a title given to those students who have not yet reached Professor statue over in Britain. In simple terms it means they are still learning under a mentor. This might explain why Snape looks upto Dumbledore because perhaps Dumbledore at the moment is a better alchemist.

Constant Vigilance

November 17th, 2003, 12:12 pm

Perhaps Snape does not need to study with Nicholas Flamel or Albus Dumbledore but then saying that Snape does study as he has all the tools of an alchemist within his room at Hogwarts. There might have been a hint that Snape was working for Albus Dumbledore, I mean Dumbledore acknowledge Snapes abilities and stated that he was the best potions master around. Not exact words and I do not have the books on me but I think that is what he mentioned. Snape also makes most of the potions for the hospital wing at the school and well definetly works for Dumbledore as he is a teacher at Hogwarts. What does interest me is the title Snape has, Master, that is a title given to those students who have not yet reached Professor statue over in Britain. In simple terms it means they are still learning under a mentor. This might explain why Snape looks upto Dumbledore because perhaps Dumbledore at the moment is a better alchemist.

That turns my theory upside down. I tought that Snape called himself a Master because he was more than a Professor. Sort of an oriental master (impliying he teaches more than a subject. A philosofical discipline?). On the other hand, when Harry disresspects Snape, Dumbledore insists on Harry calling hin Professor Snape. I guess that's his title, but Snape thinks himself as a "master", something more than just a teacher. I think JKR has said the wizards don't go to University (thou they study more years for Auror/Healer), so they should not have Uni titles.

Jill

November 17th, 2003, 12:27 pm

That turns my theory upside down. I tought that Snape called himself a Master because he was more than a Professor. Sort of an oriental master (impliying he teaches more than a subject. A philosofical discipline?). On the other hand, when Harry disresspects Snape, Dumbledore insists on Harry calling hin Professor Snape. I guess that's his title, but Snape thinks himself as a "master", something more than just a teacher. I think JKR has said the wizards don't go to University (thou they study more years for Auror/Healer), so they should not have Uni titles.

Well that just turns my theory around a bit too. The things is that Snape also calls himself the master of the school, so if what you are saying is true. Then Snape does not just think he is a master of alchemy and better than Dumbledore because he is just a professor. Snape is say with that line, that he is better than Dumbledore because he is just a professor and not a master at anything.

Yes Auror and healer do take more years to study and well Snape is both, however he became an auror first then a healer afterwards. Now Snape does say that he is the master of potions and therefore as you state he knows everything there is to know about potions or alchemy, (which I think J.K.Rowling does take it into account due to the educational system of school inspectors being bod on but lets not take that any further on this thread) then what about antidotes, there classed as separate to potions. So Snape could be still only a master but a master in antidote as he still needs mentoring in this with the help of Dumbledore.

I do agree that when it comes down to alchemy, Snape has very little to learn other than from the such likes as Dumbledore and co.

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 1:05 pm

Yes Auror and healer do take more years to study and well Snape is both, however he became an auror first then a healer afterwards.

Where does it say Snape is an auror or a healer? Did I miss something important?

Sabine

Jill

November 17th, 2003, 1:15 pm

Where does it say Snape is an auror or a healer? Did I miss something important?

Sabine

Well he fits the dictionary definition of a healer and also the encylopedia definitions for it. He teaches antidotes, administers remedies, makes the remedies he administers for the students, saves students lifes. If he knows everything there is to know about potions then he is a healer. I am assuming he is an auror by now as all the order of the pheonix are aurors. So it makes sence to class Snape as one. Funny really when you consider that some in the order probably would not fit the tests they have set for attitude but that is something else anyway.

It depends upon how one interprets the definition of healer, me I term it as in doctor of medicine or someone who stops someone physical suffering etc...

Alchemy on the other hand is something completely different to that of healing anyway. In many a way the production of the elixir of life from the stone is not really alchemy because the stone remains at the end of the process. It is not transformed into another material, it is mearly extracted for its elixir. These are two completely differing chemical processes taking place. One is a change of state completely (alchemy) while the other in a form of extraction ( more chemistry like), the two branches of science are regaurded as separate subjects.

I mean chemists today can change lead into gold but they just don't bother because it costs more to do the change than it does to sell the product.

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 1:40 pm

Jill

November 17th, 2003, 2:32 pm

I know we are completely off-topic - sorry

Well I think one could argue the healer - he definitely has the potention for it.

There are aurors amongst the members - but not all of the members become aurors just because they joined the order.

Just look at Dung! No way! At least in my eyes :)

Sabine

Well I go off topic too, it sometimes difficult not too.

I think you are right about the auror, Snape does not have the attitude for that but then again that depends upon the auror attitude test. It might be that an auror is someone who has a similar personality to those they are chasing but are able to stand back from that personality. I guess you could say the best aurors are the ones that understand those wizards that are evil, so it kind of takes one to know one.

Naughty jilly now come on, alchemy. Why is transfiguration not classified as a form of alchemy as you go from one state to another?

dorcasderr

November 19th, 2003, 5:45 am

Rather Alchemy should be a subset of Transfiguration. But, then again, I think Alchemy is about more than changing states...it is also about eternal life.

Serpentine

November 20th, 2003, 12:37 am

Why is transfiguration not classified as a form of alchemy as you go from one state to another?

Rather Alchemy should be a subset of Transfiguration. But, then again, I think Alchemy is about more than changing states...it is also about eternal life.

A potion also changes its state during the process, and when being drunk or applied it alters the state of the user. This doesn't make Potions a form/subset of Transfiguration though. I still think Potions would be closer to Alchemy than Transfiguration. In Alchemy the process is important, like Potions it's more than wand-waving and incantations. It's an evolution with several steps to be followed meticulously, quantities to be measured, ingredients to be added and processed, and it takes time and patience. When I look at the description in that "Testament of Flamel" how to create the Stone, it looks quite similar to a Potions recipe - only in the latter the ingredients are mostly organic, and in Alchemy they're not.

To me, Animagus transformation looks like some kind of high-class Transfiguration. Apparently it's quite difficult, taking the Marauders several years to learn (and they seem to have been quite bright), and it seems to alter not only the exterior temporarily but also, at least to a certain degree, the interior and mindset. Sirius managed to escape from Azkaban because the Dementors didn't recognize his Dog-Animagus mind (i.e., the emotions emanating from it) as belonging to a human prisoner.

Likewise, Alchemy could actually be high-class Potions, maybe with some Transfigurational influence but I don't think it's much. We haven't seen any metals - or their Reguluses :) - being used in Potions so far, but that might change later on in Advanced Potions. Maybe Alchemy is even on a higher level than is usually taught at Hogwarts, or else we'd have seen all the ex-students happily producing their own little Stones. (Is it knowledge of Alchemy that makes you a Potions Master?)

Potions may not be a fancy subject like Charms or Transfiguration, but its knowledge definitely grants you power - like the knowledge how to create a Stone would. Remember Snape's introduction speech: "I'll teach you how to brew glory, bottle fame, and even put a stopper to death"? Also the "ancient magic" potion used for Voldemort's resurrection was both created stepwise in a process and very powerful. Resurrection may not be the same as eternal life, but it's close enough.

silver ink pot

November 20th, 2003, 4:50 am

Fantastic post, serpentine! Lots of good points! I think the word 'Master' has to be taken as superiority in something. When I looked it up in the dictionary, I also saw the word "mastermind" which, when you think of his being in the center of the the Order of the Phoenix, might be right on target.

All the discussion here about Snape being a healer is not off-topic, in my opinion. I think many if not all the potions he makes that are actually medicinal. Isn't it fascinating that the book for his potions class is actually a guide to plants? Doesn't that give him something in common with Neville? :huh: And potions appears to have nothing to do with Slytherin, except the water in the cauldrons. Yet, of course the caduceus with the twining snakes is the symbol of medicine.

Actually, there is a form of Herbal Alchemy, and it was promoted by Paracelsus himself.
http://www.herbdatanz.com/spagyric_or_plant_alchemy_-_1.htm

Spagyric Pharmacy, sometimes called Herb Alchemy, is the Royal Road of Medicine. Paracelsus stated that the true purpose of Alchemy, was not for the vulgar purpose of Gold making, but rather for the production of medicines.
The term ‘Spagyria’ is said to have been coined by Paracelsus, from the Greek. The essential meaning of which, was to draw out and then to bind.
‘Solve et Coagula, et habebis magisterium’
Dissolve and recombine and you have the magistery.

The Medical Establishment of his day were followers of Galen the Greek, who was physician to the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180AD)
Let it be said, that Galen as Physician to the Emperor, would undoubtly have been up with the latest medical vogue of the day. He also introduced a few innovations of his own. Wine vinegar as a solvent for herbal medicines is a good example.

http://www.occultresearch.org/alchemy/alchpl1.htm
This talks about the production of the "Vegetable Stone" and I won't put all of it here, but I think you'll find it interesting. Notice that plant alchemy, which is basically what Snape does, is totally related to the world of medicine. Note the word "perseverence"!!! I see a pun there - perhaps Perseus plus Severus equals Perseverance, lol.

In the Plant Kingdom, the physical body of the plant itself is the Salt, its essential oil are the Sulphur, and alcohol (and occasionally water) is the Mercury. Thus, the aspiring alchemist seeks to separate these three parts and recombine then, giving rise to the phrase used by Paracelsus, spagyrics. Spagyrics is Greek for "separate and recombine" and is the term given to plant work, or the Lesser Circulation. The Greater Circulation consists of metallic and mineral work, its process follows the same principles as plant work, and is generally undertaken only after a certain degree of plant mastery has been attained.
The production of a spagyric tincture is the first and easiest of all operations. It requires no special equipment, and can be done by anyone anywhere, needing only patience and perseverance as its primary tools.http://www.occultresearch.org/alchemy/alchpl3.htm

Doesn't this sound like Snape's Potions Class? All the preparation and reading? Hmmm:

Preparation is the key to success in alchemical work. Preparation of the materials needed, the place of working, and above all, of the attitude of the worker. The attitude must be a mixture of humility and unswerving confidence in the ultimate success of the undertaking. An image, if possible, and a feeling to accompany it, of the final moment the product is realized, from beginning to end can only help in its final material realization.

Remember the words of Khunrath, "Ora et Labora" - Prayer and Work; and the aphorism on the fourteenth plate of the Mutus Liber: Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege, labora et invenies - Pray, read, read, read, reread, work and (you will) discover (it).Note the order of the directions: Prayer comes first, then reading and re-reading, and finally the material operations.While the alchemist works alone, or at best with a mate, they do the Work not for themselves alone, but to assist in the relieving of pain and suffering. Their motive is well expressed in the motto of the Knights Templar. It is taken from the 115th Psalm and was sung by them in victory: "Non nobis Domine! Non nobis, sed nomini tuo da Gloriam." That is, "Not unto us, O Lord! Not unto us, but unto Thy name give Glory."

Wow, this really got me. We have talked before about what Harry is missing in potions class: the sense of ritual. This material above really brought that home to me. It isn't as simple as following what is on Snape's blackboard. Harry needs to learn that someone's life may depend on how well a potion is made. Maybe that is what makes Snape a Potions Master - he understands the ritual aspect and the seriousness of it all. He doesn't make mistakes.

dorcasderr

November 20th, 2003, 6:07 am

Two good posts! Actually, Serpentine, I really agree with you that Alchemy is more closely related to Potions than anything else. The exactitude needed is staggering. It makes me understand why my High School Chemistry teacher made me promise never to take Chemistry in College...I was too creative, which is probably why I'm a good cook. But Potions and Alchemy are definitely fascinating, as is Herbology.

Venustas

November 22nd, 2003, 5:24 am

Fantastic posts- all this information is incredible, though a bit above my knowlege. I'm glad to jump in where I can :D

SIP
It isn't as simple as following what is on Snape's blackboard. Harry needs to learn that someone's life may depend on how well a potion is made. Maybe that is what makes Snape a Potions Master - he understands the ritual aspect and the seriousness of it all. He doesn't make mistakes.

Pray, read, read, read, reread, work and (you will) discover (it).

Even if it is more than following what is on Snape's blackboard, that may be where Harry needs to start. It seems like whenever Harry messes up on potions it is because he left something out or missed a step. I can't find the particular quote, but I think in book 5 Snape asked Harry to reread the directions and Harry realized the step he had missed. I agree that in order to gain the full benefit of potions, Harry will not only have to 'follow the instructions' but also do it with a sense of humility, prayer and ritual. He doesn't seem to have been working very hard on potions, either, but perhaps that will change as he works to meet the requirements for an Auror.

dorcasderr

November 23rd, 2003, 3:03 am

I think we are taking for granted that Harry earned a sufficiently high grade on his Potions O.W. L. and will be allowed to continue in Potions. This will show him (and Snape) that he can be careful and do it correctly. He just needs to learn to do this with Snape present.

whizbang121

November 23rd, 2003, 6:08 am

Like Ron playing quidditch in front of a crowd.

That was great, Serpentine and SIP. Snapes attitude toward James, (nicked the Snitch) may have carried over to Harry because he sees a callous attitude in potions. But this too, like many of the more advanced spells, requires concentration and a particular frame of mind. When things come too easily, concentration isn't learned.

It's late and the only example I can think of is Anakin Skywalker. Talent and tremendous ability, but not the patience or concentration to do their best work, even though what they were doing was probably better than anyone else. This breeds arrogance in the flower bed of ego. Is this one reason that Snape keeps giving Harry bad marks? (The other is to set up that Harry needs "remedial potions" to cover for occlumency lessons.)

But Snape challenges Harry, "Do you think you're special? Because you're not." This is not a denial of Harry's ability or destiny so much as a reference to Harry's lack of humility in developing himself to his very best. "When much is given, much is required." Harry had no idea how good he was in potions until he took his O.W.L. He surprised himself. But as good as it was, how good could it have been if he did apply himself?

For awhile, I've been wondering what on earth Snape was going on about insulting both Harry and his father to his face all the time. If we subtract the hissing and snarling what's the message he's trying to convey? I think you folks just nailed it. "Nicked the Snitch." Stole eternal life.

Serpentine

November 23rd, 2003, 3:43 pm

SIP, many thanks for the links on spagyric alchemy. It convinces me even more that Snape must be an Alchemist. :) And on the page of that last link you provided I found something else pointing towards it...

(quote from alchpl3.htm; italics by me)

The aura and energy radiating from the hands of the alchemist are most crucial in the Work. That is why during the handling of the Salt and tincture, the attitude of the alchemist is so important; as well as why alchemists work alone undisturbed by inquisitive and disruptive thoughts of others.

While it should not have to be said to someone interested in alchemical, kabbalistic, or hermetic work, we will state again to drive the point home: thoughts are real things on their way to becoming tangible in our material world. It is for this reason that we mentally wrap ourselves in a blanket or veil to psychically isolate ourselves from the disruptive psychic energy from others, and our products in aluminum foil when they are completed. Alcohol is very susceptible to psychic vibrations, as is cold water, and both act as storage mediums for those concentrated energies.

The importance of the alchemist's attitude has been pointed out several times before, but the wording of the above really struck me. Doesn't it sound much like Occlumency? I'm not quite sure altogether what to make of it, but it'd sure be helpful in Alchemy to be an Occlumens as well. Not only keeping your alchemical creations clean of disruptive thoughts from others, but of your own ones as well - and with his past and all his grudges there seem to be quite a lot of them. I feel Occlumency would be quite helpful for an Alchemist Snape.

whizbang121

November 23rd, 2003, 4:54 pm

The aura and energy radiating from the hands of the alchemist are most crucial in the Work. That is why during the handling of the Salt and tincture, the attitude of the alchemist is so important; as well as why alchemists work alone undisturbed by inquisitive and disruptive thoughts of others.

While it should not have to be said to someone interested in alchemical, kabbalistic, or hermetic work, we will state again to drive the point home: thoughts are real things on their way to becoming tangible in our material world. It is for this reason that we mentally wrap ourselves in a blanket or veil to psychically isolate ourselves from the disruptive psychic energy from others, and our products in aluminum foil when they are completed. Alcohol is very susceptible to psychic vibrations, as is cold water, and both act as storage mediums for those concentrated energies.

Wow! Does that explain Snape? And again the necessity of maintaining certain thoughts and "vibes" for the magic to work properly.
thoughts are real things on their way to becoming tangible in our material world.

I love this line. My grandmother used to say, "Be careful what you wish for. You'll get it."
And, Edgar Cayce (a 20th century psychic) said in a trance that thoughts are things and have weight and mass. He used to have workshops on "Attitudes and Emotions" for the study of how these things control us and our surroundings until we learn to control them, and thus create our world. :agree:
JKR is making alchemists of us. :)

silver ink pot

November 28th, 2003, 7:04 am

And, Edgar Cayce (a 20th century psychic) said in a trance that thoughts are things and have weight and mass. He used to have workshops on "Attitudes and Emotions" for the study of how these things control us and our surroundings until we learn to control them, and thus create our world. :agree:
JKR is making alchemists of us. :)

Whizbang: I meant to reply to your excellent post a few days ago, but got lost on other threads. The points you make about Snape working alone for a reason are just wonderful! I believe you have found something really important in thinking about alchemy. An alchemist would have to choose his apprentices very carefully, and find someone with the same reverent attitude - Hermione perhaps?

__________________

London_luv89

November 28th, 2003, 3:47 pm

whizbang121

November 28th, 2003, 8:12 pm

That was very good :clap: :tu: I liked the way you related the 4 elements to the 4 houses, I think you have something going here, you should do more research on it meybe you'll find something important.......
Glad you like it. Lots of good research on the earlier pages. Very interesting stuff. Enjoy.

An alchemist would have to choose his apprentices very carefully, and find someone with the same reverent attitude - Hermione perhaps?

An apprentice. :huh: Wow. Hermione? She's so pragmatic, but .....
Then there's way he's been on Harry's case since day one, always trying to pound certain information into his head. Asphodel and wormwood make the Draght of Living Death, a bezoar stone will save one from most poisons, and monkshood, wolfsbane and aconite are the same plant.
..............
Does any of this relate to Remus?

Jill

November 28th, 2003, 8:23 pm

Whizbang: I meant to reply to your excellent post a few days ago, but got lost on other threads. The points you make about Snape working alone for a reason are just wonderful! I believe you have found something really important in thinking about alchemy. An alchemist would have to choose his apprentices very carefully, and find someone with the same reverent attitude - Hermione perhaps?

__________________

Yes both of you have a great idea there. Hermione has already shown us a great appitude for the works and arts of potion making and antidotes. She goes way beyond the curriculum even in the 2nd year of school. Even in ss/ps, Hermione showed a personal interest in alchemy because she found the philosophers stone while doing light reading on that same subject.

Snape has also pointed out on many occassion that Hermione is very smart at his own profession. So if a master wants to remain the master of potions, he may take on Hermione as a mentor and therefore keep her under his little thumb and prevent her from overtaking his status position.;)

There is no way Snape can not take Hermione on in the 6th and 7th years at Hogwarts. It will be very interesting to see if Snape still continues to have a dig at Hermiones intelligence or finally accepts that she is smart and uses her to gain and add to his own potential in alchemy.

Good points :tu:

dorcasderr

November 30th, 2003, 9:19 pm

Yes, Hermione and Harry have probably earned high enough O.W.L.s to continue in Higher Potions...and perhaps on to Alchemy...but, what about Ron. His one expressed ambition is to be an Auror, and he needs further Potions for that. I can't see Ron in the role of an Alchemical understudy, but Hermione yes and Harry as well, but reluctantly.

silver ink pot

December 1st, 2003, 2:45 am

Yes, Dorcas, that is a good point about Ron. Often his potions are just as messed up as Nevilles, but Snape doesn't give him the hard time. It'll be interesting to see his reaction if Harry, Hermione, and Neville make it into higher potions, but Ron doesn't. His study skills probably aren't as good as Harry's, and Ron is the jealous type - he won't like being separated from his pals.

whizbang121

December 1st, 2003, 5:02 am

Sad thought. Maybe Ron won't mind if he can be quidditch captain?

Just a thought.

[Pretty]_[Unicorn]

December 1st, 2003, 12:13 pm

But do you really think that JKR would leave such a main character as Ron out from going to advanced Potions especially with his 2 best friends. I mean there will be a lot going on in that class because hey! Snape teaches it and Harry and Snape together is like an oxymoron.

Schlubalybub

December 1st, 2003, 12:21 pm

oxymoron, heh, i love that word!

i dunno, harry's a bit torn here, does he carry on with advanced potions and hate snape for eternity, or does he take something else instead and miss out on being an auror because he didnt take potions? he's got some decision making to do!

whizbang121

December 1st, 2003, 3:04 pm

More alchemically, Ron's Uncle Bilius. Bilius would seem to be bile. Yellow bile was the bodily humor associated with fire, the element of Gryffindor.

It's worth mentioning that Ron's relatives are largely Sirius' relatives and that Bilius died not long after seeing a large, black dog.

Percy's middle name is Ignatius, from the Greek for fire. Hopefully, that may suggest he really will show he's a Gryffindor.Good references to fire. And the phoenix's method of immortality, consumed by flame and reborn from the ashes.

Here are some sites I've found helpful.
This one gives a general overview of alchemy, and links it with the symbols, planets, days of the week, etc.

http://www.hexagongirl.com/y/22-Alchemy&Symbols.html

While alchemy has been applied in many, many ways (through chemistry, psychologically, spiritually...) I am looking at it mostly through Medieval spirituality, when it was used in the Church. These sites give the Medieval meanings to many of the creatures/symbols used in HP:

http://www.heraldryunlimited.com/index.htm
Discusses Medieval creatures such as the basilisk, griffin, phoenix, and centaurs (and many more)

http://www.heraldryunlimited.com/guide/home_page.htm
Just about everything else you can think of... cat, boar, badger, dog, deer (especially Stag- another life/rebirth symbol like the phoenix and basilisk), the moon, mandrake and Nimbus(!) to name a few of note.

Hope they're helpful

I want to go back to Black Adder's comparison of the seven steps of alchemy to the seven years at Hogwarts. uh oh phone.

Venustas

December 2nd, 2003, 4:41 am

Black Adder’s 7 steps :
http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=637393&postcount=99
Or look at page 4, post 99.

I've really been wanting to take a closer look at the 7steps/7books, though I haven't gotten far with it. Here are the first two steps:

http://www.earthspiritcenter.com/articles.html

Calcination
In Calcination, we come face to face with the ego's resistances. It tries to protect us from the unknown by maintaining the status quo, the old way, the safe way, even if outdated. Calcination, over which the ego has no control, makes us feel like all we hold dear is threatened. It's a death-like experience. We may even feel like we are being burned at the stake - the stake being the ego's investment in keeping things safe. Calcination burns away what is no longer needed, including ego-based beliefs and ways of being. It initiates us into a long process of releasing illusion and making space for the true self to emerge. And this takes place when our container is cleared of old limitations.

I see this process as Harry’s leaving the Dursleys- they are the epitome of ‘maintaining the status quo, the old way, the safe way’ Harry’s destiny brings them kicking and screaming to face the Magic world which they have always rejected. The bit about being cleared of old limitations is applicable, too, as Harry entered the magical community he is free to be himself- a wizard- and free from the harassment from the Dursleys.

Dissolution:
As the ego's rigid control over our lives is released temporarily (this is not fully completed without many such experiences which ultimately create a new pattern), we experience underlying structures created to protect our more fragile aspects of beingness which are based in fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of feeling. Fear of emotion. Fear of revealing who we truly are. Fear of being who we truly are. The ego leads us to believe that if we reveal who we really are we will be somehow harmed, rejected, denied, criticized, or annihilated.

In Book 2 Harry dealt with the realization that he and Voldemort were actually very similar. He was afraid of letting others know that he heard voices, he was afraid of what it meant to understand parseltongue, and afraid of the Sorting Hat’s decision in deciding his house. He eventually had to come to terms with all of these things, understanding why they are a part of him.

Everyone has been doing such great research as always. *tips hat to Whizbang and SIP*

I’ve also been wondering- each of Harry’s meetings with Voldemort are either underground or representative of underground- Book 1- the dungeons where the stone was hidden, Book 2 the chamber of secrets, miles below the school, Book 4 the graveyard, Book 5 the Ministry of Magic. I recently read the Narnia books, and in the 6th one, The Silver Chair, the childrens’ fight (and victory) against the evil queen is held underground. Is there a connection? Is there anything alchemal about the regions under the earth?

silver ink pot

December 2nd, 2003, 5:58 am

Hey, Venustas! So good to hear from you! :clap:

I did a search about alchemy and the underworld, and found a great link about psychological alchemy and the underworld. This is so timely for me because I've been thinking alot about Egyptian mythology and the cult of the underworld. Anyway, this site has some great illustrations with captions that I can't include in my post, but click the link and look at them. Alot of interesting quotes, too.
http://www.soul-guidance.com/houseofthesun/alchemy%201.htm

He who wants to enter the divine realm,first must enter his mother’s body, and die herein. -Paracelsus

"The acronym V.I.T.R.I.O.L.U.M., used in alchemical literature, is formed by the Latin expression "Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem Veram Medicinam", what means "Visit the interior of the earth, and by rectifying you will find the hidden stone which is the true medicine".

Thus we are invited to descend into the earth, into the underworld, or the unconscious. The earth is the symbol of physical man. Man needs to become conscious of his inner world, who he is, what he is doing, what his motives are, and so on. Once attention is directed inwards, a whole new world opens: the underworld of Hades, the dark realm of shadows and monsters.
This descent is also called ‘regressus ad uterum’, ‘the return into the uterus’, a term often used in initiation rites. It is a symbolic return to a particular primal state of being that every man is carrying in his collective unconscious. Deep inside man, in the darkness of his psyche, are the causes or origins of man’s actions. Therefore the ‘regressus ad uterum’ is a necessary condition to enter the moonlit area of death, and subsequently experience rebirth. Terra Mater, Mother Earth, has always been connected with birth, with the connection between man and woman (=the conscious and the unconscious), from which new life springs up after death.

Primitive people performed their initiations in darkness or under the ground, like in caves. In Egypt initiations were performed in the pyramids or in underground crypts of the temples. In Persia it was mostly in caves, with native Indians is special huts. The Mythras mysteries were conducted in temples built underground. The initiation itself was symbolized by the penetration of the belly of the Great Mother, or of the body of a sea monster or wild animal.
In Greek mythology Orpheus descended into the Hades to look for Eurydice (=symbol of his lost soul). The Indian god Krishna descended into the hells to look for his six brothers (=the six chakras, Krishna being the crown chakra). There is a legend that after his death Jesus descended into the realm of Satan to save the soul of Adam (=the pure man).
In alchemy, the entrance into the unconscious is represented by the entrance into caves, by reports of travels to the underworld or strange parts of the world. Another important representation is the king who is taking a bath. The conscious is the king, and the bath or bath water is the unconscious. By bathing he enters into the unconscious. In alchemical terms he is being permeated by the water (aqua permanens) or quicksilver.
Another symbol is the ‘coniunctio’ (conjunction) or ‘conceptio’ (conception) that primarily takes place in water, in a spring or a fountain. The queen then represents the feminine, water, the unconscious. The descent into the unconscious is not without dangers. In the psychological sense it can result, for example, in schizophrenia. In mythology the hero penetrates the underworld to fight monsters and demons. The Great Mother appears to him in the image of a terrible being, often as the Ruler of Death. For his courage and bravery, the Great Mother, as goddess of fertility, offers him great knowledge and wisdom.

In alchemy, when working with (symbolic) metals, lead is used as initial material. The alchemists say that in lead there is a demon that can cause insanity. Lead as a metal is under the rulership of Saturn, the god of melancholy, who causes ailments and devilish visions. Lead, the most impure metal, needs to be transformed into the pure metal, gold. In general, lead means impurity, the impure body, or impure man.

After the alchemist has entered the earth, he must rectify (rectificando). What does this mean? A text from the modern syncretistic Taoism: "That is why Buddha Jou-lai (Tathagata), in his great mercy, has revealed the method, the alchemical work of Fire, and taught people to rectify their true nature and fullness." ‘Rectificando’ in the middle of the acronym VITRIOLUM means ‘to put right’ in the moral sense, to reinstate the true nature, the purification of negative emotions and so on. It is to straighten that what has grown crooked during our lives. The alchemist must purify himself of all ‘dirt’, of all his ‘dross’. He has to wash ‘the body’ to ameliorate and improve it.
The metals have to be purified from the ‘external, impure and destructive elements’. The metals here can be seen as the emotions.

Going into the unconscious also means to go into the collective unconscious we all share. In Greek mythology there was Tartaros, a name originally used for the entire underworld. Tartaros is the psychic world deep in man where all those nasty emotions reside, like the lust for murder and destruction, thirst for blood, fear, hate, revenge, the lust for power, melancholy and so on. It is not easy to admit to oneself, but they all reside in ourselves. Because we don’t like it, we have cut ourselves off from being aware of this dark realm. We have repressed all our dark emotions into this deep realm of Tartaros. This is the heritage of man, dating from ancient times.
The task of man is to feel and be responsible for all his emotions, not to repress them, but to change and transmute them into higher feelings. Repression chains man to the very objects of repression, but purification will transmute them positive elements bringing him closer to his true essence. As long as we do not take up the Great Work, pain and misery will disturb our lives.
We have to face the mythical monsters in the depths of our unconscious and shed light on them. As they are part of being human, we cannot discard them, but we can control them, master them, learn from them, and transform them into servants of the Divine. The monsters are not monsters by themselves. They are just characteristics of human nature that have become distorted. We can rectify them and make them shine in their original beauty

This task is not for the would-be initiate. It is only for the brave who dare to face the darkness of the soul. Many will fail in their courage and return home. Thus the pilgrim is not going on an easy path, as the world of pleasure is not his anymore. He has chosen the path of Arete (=goddess of Virtue), leading him to many dangers and difficult paths, in solitude and starvation, but eventually he will become immortal. He who will lose life, will gain it.

Serpentine

December 2nd, 2003, 2:06 pm

Thanks for the reminder, whizbang. The first link just won't fully load for me, :frown: but the links on heraldry are indeed most interesting.

And lo, look what else I found there... (italicized by me)

DEER

Meaning: Gentleness, swiftness, healing, virility and also linked with water. In the Middle Ages, deer were much more numerous than they are now, and stag-hunting was a popular pastime, so deer were an important symbol, and frequently found on coats of arms. Deer were linked with water, partly because of Psalm 42 "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God" Deer were also linked with healing - they were supposed to have discovered the miraculous power of the herb dittany which expelled hunter's arrows from their bodies and allowed their wounds to heal. Deer were also associated with St. Hubert, a Roman officer who went hunting on Good Friday, when the crucified Christ appeared between the antlers of the stag he was chasing, and said "how long will you go on hunting the beasts of the woods? It is time for you to hunt me, for I am the Lord your God." In general, therefore, deer were symbolic of gentleness and mildness.

The stag, partly because of the spread of its antlers, which regularly drop and grow again, symbolises virility and the rhythms of growth and rebirth. It was also symbolic of swiftness.

Uh-oh. Snitchnick James, here we go again. :rolleyes:

Dittany rings a bell with me, I just can't put a finger on which one it was... Wasn't it used in Potions somewhere? Healing, and Paracelsus's herbal alchemy. :agree: And water has an underworld connection in heraldry too... My gut feeling that there was indeed more between "Snitchnick James" and "Paracelsus Snape" than we've found out so far, is getting stronger by the minute. Arrgh, where's book 6 when you need it?! :p

Sickles appear in heraldry as well. A galleon is a boat or ship with which the Spanish used to transport American gold to Europe. I don't know if "knut" has actually a meaning in English, but if it hasn't, could it be a kind of knot? Then all three kinds of Wizarding coins, in gold, silver and copper (all three alchemical metals), would appear in heraldry. I'm not sure about the meaning for the series though. Do goblins know alchemy? :shrug:

"The acronym V.I.T.R.I.O.L.U.M., used in alchemical literature, is formed by the Latin expression "Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem Veram Medicinam", what means "Visit the interior of the earth, and by rectifying you will find the hidden stone which is the true medicine".

Wow, SIP. :wow: I think you may be on to something there. This could very well be the essence of it all. The CoS seems to have a key role in the series with its underground waterworld, and also in GoF Harry discovers the secret of the egg while taking a bath. :agree: And both times Moaning Myrtle has helped him. I wonder how she could help him to find the Stone in the end?

Schlubalybub

December 2nd, 2003, 2:28 pm

Dittany was the thing Harry was looking up in the Library in the book 100 Magical Herbs and Fungi
it was used to draw thorns or iron out of the body and also was considered helpful in astroprojection.
Dittany of Crete is often used to attract success and power to whoever carries it in a yellow mojo bag anointed with John the Conqueror oil.
Said to be a potent psychic herb used in the magic of contacting the spirits.

silver ink pot

December 2nd, 2003, 5:50 pm

Serpentine: I was just reading this earlier! We must be on the same wavelength, or something
http://www.geocities.com/annafranklin1/deer.html
The white stag may be seen as a solar symbol. Legends often tell of a stag fighting with a snake, or Underworld/winter animal, sometimes drawing it from the ground with its nostrils and then swallowing it or trampling on it.
WATER
The stag god is nearly always associated with water. In Welsh and Irish poetry a wave of the sea is a 'sea stag' and in myth both of the solar heroes Cuchulain and Fionn fought the waves with spears and swords, perhaps a symbolic slaying of the King Stag to ensure the turning of the year.
ORACLES
Just as the bull's hide was used by some Druids to travel shamanically in trance to the Otherworld, so too was the flayed hide of a white stag. A description remains of how Brut the Trojan was given the moon oracle on the Island of Leogrecia, wrapped in the flayed hide of a white hart, whose blood had been poured on the sacred fire. This may be echoed in the folk tale of the witch of Berkeley who, when on the point of death, asked her children to wrap her in a stag's hide after death, and then put the body into a stone coffin and wrap it with iron chains to protect her from the devil. In the story the devil overcame her defences and carried her off to hell.
STAGS AND METALS
There is an association of the stag and precious metals. Artemis had a golden chariot drawn by horned stags. Hercules' third labour was to capture the brazen hoofed Ceryneian hind, which was sacred to Artemis, and take it to Mycene. The Rama Yana [an Indian epic] mentions a golden antlered stag with a coat flecked in silver. In China deer are associated with places where precious metals are mined. Silver models of deer are placed in Christian sanctuaries as a symbol of Christ. The stag confronted by the serpent represents the Christian concept of good overcoming evil.

whizbang121

December 2nd, 2003, 6:30 pm

Wow. I'm going to print this page and read it later. Can't give it enough attention, now.

Venustas

December 2nd, 2003, 10:44 pm

gosh. Ask a little question, get a very big answer. :p
Thanks Silver Ink Pot-

I'm with you, Whizbang- print it out, hi-light it and then come back with a sensible response... :agree:

Concerning the bath- the first thing that came to my mind was the bath in the prefects bathroom, too, but also the 2nd task underwater-
The queen then represents the feminine, water, the unconscious. The descent into the unconscious is not without dangers. In the psychological sense it can result, for example, in schizophrenia. In mythology the hero penetrates the underworld to fight monsters and demons. The Great Mother appears to him in the image of a terrible being, often as the Ruler of Death. For his courage and bravery, the Great Mother, as goddess of fertility, offers him great knowledge and wisdom
I haven't got my book on hand, but Harry thought that failing the task would result in the deaths of Ron, Hermione and Fleur's sister.

Uggg. I need more time for a thoughtful answer... be back soon.

dorcasderr

December 3rd, 2003, 1:11 am

Point of interest: in the November issue of Touchstone magazine, a Christian magazine in the tradition of C.S. lewis, there are 2 Harry Potter-related articles. One concerns the use of Alchemy in the Harry Potter books, written by John Granger. Both are definitely pro-HP in a serious Christian magazine.

Venustas

December 3rd, 2003, 1:52 am

Here's the link for Touchstone's The Alchemist’s Tale
Harry Potter & the Alchemical Tradition in English Literature by John Granger

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html

And here's the other one which doesn't deal with alchemy, although it has a very interesting Christian perspective.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg11.html

The alchemy one is definately worth a look.
Thanks, Dorcasderr!

dorcasderr

December 3rd, 2003, 2:06 am

Thank YOU! I don't know how to do that link stuff. Probably a generational thing...

whizbang121

December 3rd, 2003, 4:40 am

Concerning the bath- the first thing that came to my mind was the bath in the prefects bathroom, too, but also the 2nd task underwater-

Water ~ Moaning Myrtle!

In the toilet, in the bath and in the lake! :huh: (Runs off to make a pot of Coffee.)
And all the subterranean stuff. The chamber of secrets may have more in store for us. Were there ever initiations ceremonies in there?

If I can find it, there was a link to an alchemy page about the stag and the unicorn somewhere on these boards. I might have even posted it way back when this thread was new. Either way, the relationship between James, Snape and alchemy seems to be much more inportant that I ever first thought. I was happy with Snape owed James a life debt, but.........

July 1st, 2003, 6:20 am
Post #8

Zen []
First Year
Joined: 380 days
I get the feeling that there will be a Harry/Luna relationship.

Look here for the stag and the unicorn stag and unicorn (www.alchemywebsite.com/lambjrny.html)
also note the lions and the wolf and dog

__________________
Splunge!

silver ink pot

December 3rd, 2003, 8:23 am

Dorcas and Venustas! Thanks for the articles!

WOW! I read the Alchemy one - really fascinating! I can't believe the author's name is Granger! Were any of you as thrilled as I was to read this:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html

The third example is the way alchemy explains the structure and bizarre events of the latest book, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. From its hot and dry beginnings in Harry’s sojourn in the House of Black to his time at Hogwarts under the police state of Dolores Umbridge (a fascinating cryptonym, which may mean “grieving resentment,” “grievous shadow,” or “a woman who blocks the sun”) to the death of his godfather at the end, Order of the Phoenix is the nigredo volume of the series.

Harry is burnt up, broken down or dissolved, and bled until everything that he thought he was—star Quidditch player, his best friend’s superior, pet of the headmaster, lover of his school, son and spitting image of a great man, victim of the Dursleys, valiant enemy of Snape, even his being the hero and man of action in time of crisis—is taken from him or revealed as falsehood. The boundaries of his world collapse; magical enemies come to his home with the Dur-sleys, and Aunt Petunia knows about them. The Dursleys’ house is no longer a sanctuary, however miserable, and Hogwarts is no longer edifying or any joy to him.

The world is no longer separated into good guys and bad guys. Harry has been reduced to his formless elements. Whether the white stage is to follow this black novel, however, and a climax to follow in the seventh and final book turning on Hagrid the Red, Order of the Phoenix is Rowling’s nigredo volume

and also this:

.

Rubeus Hagrid (rubeus is Latin for red) is named for this stage. A common symbol of the red work and the Philosopher’s Stone is the red lion. Each book thus far is a trip through these stages. The black work or dissolution is the work done on Harry at Privet Drive by the Dursleys and in the classroom at Hogwarts by a teacher, Snape, who hates him. The white work or purification is Harry’s year at Hogwarts under the watchful eye of the white alchemist, Albus Dumbledore, in combination with painful separation from Ron, Hermione, or both. The red work or rubedo is the climactic crucible scene, so far always underground or in a graveyard, in which Harry always dies a figurative death and is saved by love in the presence of a Christological symbol.
The resurrection at story’s end each year is the culmination of that year’s cycle and transformation. The cycle then closes with congratulations and explanations from the master alchemist and a return to the Dursleys for another trip through the cycle.

I was reading along thinking, yep, we figured that out already, and this out already, yes, yes, yes! And then I got to the line where he assumes that Snape is a Vampire, and he lost me a little!:rolleyes: :grumble: I just kept thinking we could write a better article than his - ours would be much more clear with less mumbo-jumbo!

But isn't all this really profound? Do any of you dream about Alchemy at night? I had a dream the other night that I was mixing black and white chemicals in these little black and white containers which were fastened together in sequences. They had odd shapes. Then I realized they were words and I was lining them up in sequences! I've never had a dream that was so symbolic!

I want to read the Christian article, too, because today I was thinking about Christianity and Harry Potter, and I realized the one way JKR could quiet her critics (maybe) forever would be to suggest a link between the "good" protection of Hogwarts and the Christian Church. Obviously alchemy is one way to do that. What if Harry's protection comes from being Baptized, for instance, or Christened? We have no clue about the religious beliefs of anyone - people just assume that because they are witches or wizards, then they are pagans, but that isn't necessarily so. On the Egypt thread it has become obvious to me that Egyptian mythology evolved eventually into Christianity - the "ankh" symbol evolved into the Coptic Cross, the resurrection of Osiris becomes the resurrection of Jesus, the Phoenix into the Dove, etc. So I expect to see a sort of evolution in the next two books.

Before I forget, I want to point something out about the 'bath' theme we've been talking about - and which Granger mentions in his article. I thought of Myrtle, the bath in GoF, and the lake sequence in GoF, as all of you did. But I also thought of the Fountain at the MOM, which Voldemort plunges into. I thought of Bella as the "Terrible Mother" or the Opposite of Lily. I don't have it all figured out, but all that came together for me when I read that passage!

Whiz: The Unicorn and Stag page is so full of ideas that I'll have to save it for another day, but thanks sooooo much for reposting that! Truly unusual, and I don't quite know what to make of it!

Venustas

December 3rd, 2003, 3:08 pm

Yes! I was just as thrilled to read the alchemy article, and took the liberty of emailing the author, inviting him to see what all we've found concerning alchemy. Surprisingly, he wrote back immediately and suggested many sources for us:

Dear V V,

I'm up against a writing deadline so I won't be able to jump on this thread. If you want a few recommended readings and people's email address and web sites to pass on to anyone on it wanting to learn more about alchemy and literature, here's the best I've found in my researches.

hansrieuwers@yahoo.com.au Hans is up to his eyeballs in alchemy and Harry Potter (especially as much as the whole HP series may be patterned on the 7 volume The Alchymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz ). He writes on 'Harry Potter for Grown Ups but I'm sure he'd answer any questions your friends might have.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html My article on alchemy in English lit - please post if you haven't already!
Stanton J. Linden’s Darke Hieroglyphicks: Alchemy in English Literature from Chaucer to the Restoration (University of Kentucky Press, 1998) The best book yet on Alchemy in English lit.

Lyndy Abraham’s A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery (Cambridge University Press, 1998). The best of the many alchemy dictionaries - if your friends want to know why the HP4 trials go from dragon to egg to bath to submersion to maze to graveyard, they need this book.

www.levity.com/alchemy/index.html The best resourse for sober information on alchemy on the internet - perhaps anywhere. Your amateur alchemist friends would do well to take this man's courses. Their cheap and 'spot on' - no goofy new age nonsense.

Mircea Eliade, The Forge and the Crucible, University of Chicago Press, 1978 Standard in field for history of subject
Titus Burckhardt, Alchemy , Penguin Books, 1972, and Mirror of the Intellect: Essays on Traditional Science and Sacred Art, Quinta Essentia, 1987 If you can only read one author on Alchemy, don't read Jung (who gets it exactly upside down) - read Burckhardt. Rowling certainly has (the whole Mirror of Erided ending in HP1 is out of Mirror of the Intellect).
Hope that's enough for tonight and next week! Regards to your friends on this thread -

John, back to work

If you liked the article, you'll also like the book Mr. Granger wrote:
The Hidden Key to Harry Potter, also incorporates a lot of alchemy

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972322108/qid=1070472270/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_4/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&n=507846

I think that Lyndy Abraham's A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagry is the same one that Ellen was using (like from page 1). Here's Amazon's site for it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521000009/qid=1070465045/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&s=books

Here are some of the others Mr. Granger mentioned:
Stanton J. Linden’s Darke Hieroglyphicks: Alchemy in English Literature from Chaucer to the Restoration
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813119685/qid=1070464449/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&s=books

Other books by Stanton J. Linden may be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=s_sf_b_as/103-9901517-2572605

Mircea Eliade, The Forge and the Crucible
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226203905/qid=1070464682/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&s=books

Titus Burckhardt
Alchemy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0906540968/qid=1070464858/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&s=books

Mirror of the Intellect: Essays on Traditional Science and Sacred Art
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/094662108X/qid=1070464858/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&s=books

The Alchymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0933999356/ref=pd_sbs_b_2/103-9901517-2572605?v=glance&s=books

Unfortunately, many of these reccommended books are either out of print (limited availability) or very expensive. Please let me know if any of you find them for a better price. I've not been able to find Harry Potter for Grownups but I'm interested if anyone knows where to find it. Thanks!

I think I must have somehow given Mr. Granger the wrong impression concerning our ages. :rolleyes:
Anyway, lots of valuable information- this'll keep our noses in the books for weeks, I'm sure! Have Fun!

Serpentine

December 3rd, 2003, 6:11 pm

dorcasderr, Venustas - thanks for the information about the Touchstone article! I haven't read it yet, but will post some more as soon as I have.

Just some random thoughts I wanted to share...

In the thread "Snape's Development in OotP" st_alia pointed out that Harry has three father figures (underscored there by SIP, comparing Snape's reaction about the flying car in CoS with Molly's). The three father figures, according to her, are:
1. Dumbledore the wise father;
2. Hagrid the caring father;
3. Snape the protective father.
(Even though Snape may have taken on the role grudgingly, he still fulfils his task with as much dedication as any other task he's been set.)

Dumbledore's first name is Albus (the white), Hagrid's is Rubeus (the red). Snape's first name is not connected to a colour, but his clothes are - he usually wears black. Albedo, Rosado, Negrado. Their usual locations are 1. up in a tower (Albus Dumbledore), 2. outside the castle in a hut (Rubeus Hagrid), 3. down in the dungeons (Severus Snape). I can't yet put a finger on what this means, but this trio of father figures seems to be significant also as an alchemical trio.

(Edit2: Now that I've read the article, I see that I misspelled nigredo and rubedo, sorry... But I still think that in spite of the name thing, Snape holds more of "nigredo" symbolism than Sirius. He keeps pushing Harry in class towards a kind of breakdown, while "rubedo" Hagrid keeps making him and his classmates face dangerous creatures as a kind of challenge - much like the regular "rubedo"-battles with Voldemort described in the article! -, and "albedo" Dumbledore keeps purifying Harry with explanations on the truth of what has happened all over the year. I do agree about the rest though. :) )

On another matter, Quidditch. After the discovery of the deer's significance (thanks for the support SIP, we do seem to be on the same wavelength in that matter! :) ) I couldn't stop thinking about James and his nicked Snitch, and the overall meaning of Quidditch. Suddenly it struck me that there seems to have been a similar image in the Quidditch World Cup in GoF: Krum caught the Snitch for Bulgaria, but Ireland won the Cup.

Usually the team that gets the Snitch first is also the winning team due to the amount of points (one Quaffle goal gets you 10 points but the Snitch gets you 150). Still it is possible - if rare - to catch the Snitch and yet lose the game. If we look at the Bulgarian team, it seems to be a good team if not brilliant, but with Krum it has a really amazing Seeker. His physical description and grumpy attitude remind me very much of young Snape; his teammates seem to be darkish too but are described in less detail than Krum. The Irish team, on the other hand, doesn't have such a good Seeker (let himself be tricked with the same Wronski Feint twice! :rolleyes: ), but is brilliant as a team. They are described as nice, likeable people, and Harry and Ron support them. In spite of Krum's solitary brilliance it was the Irish teamwork that made them win the game. Krum caught the Snitch, but lost the game.

The Marauders around "Snitchnick James" are strong as a group as well, while Snape has to stand alone. We know that he's brilliant - how could he not be, having become a Potions Master? -, yet he can't hold out alone against the combined "teamwork" of the Marauders. Together they humiliated him in front of the entire school, together they almost killed him in the Shrieking Shack incident (or at least it was the combined "effort" of Sirius and Remus's alter ego as a werewolf). His Slytherin housemates are mentioned in passing, but seem to remain in the background - we haven't yet seen any real effort of them to support Snape.

Just like Krum was the only one in the Bulgarian team who did a really brilliant job. Krum's teammates are mentioned again and again during the game, but didn't really bring the game forward. So in spite of all his efforts, he lost the game to the opposing teamworkers because he had to do his job alone.

So we have two cases of "forced solitary fighters" doing their very best, but they just can't win against a group of teamworkers. Just like James (and Co.) "nicked the Snitch", the Irish team kind of "nicked the Quidditch World Cup".

Um... do I make sense? :shrug:

Edit: Venustas, many thanks for contacting the author and posting all the links! :wow: Amazing, it'll take some time to ferret through it all, but I'm sure it'll be worth it. I really hope he can jump in here some day. :)

whizbang121

December 3rd, 2003, 11:52 pm

dorcasderr

December 4th, 2003, 4:19 am

Whizbang, Serpentine , I'm very much taken with the three fathers and sky, earth, and underworld theories. The Quidditch observations are also quite good.
And Venustas, thank you for contacting John Granger...interesting about his last name! I wish I had the time to delve into the intricacies of Alchemy more than I do, but, alas, I don't just now. This thread and the article in Touchstone magazine have given me about all I know...oh, and a bit from the novels of Judith Merkle Riley.

Serpentine

December 8th, 2003, 11:32 pm

As Mr. Granger has suggested that the HP books are patterned on the Alchymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz, I've read the text - it's actually available on the web in English translation (see links below).

Hmmm... I can't quite see why he thinks so. :shrug: Either I'm too dumb to get the meaning without a Rosenkreutz "roadmap", or it has far less to do with the Potter series that e.g. the Testament of Nicholas Flamel.

The Chemical Wedding is divided in seven parts (seven days), OK. The first day begins with an invitation letter brought by a winged female messenger, and the receiver wonders about his worthiness. OK too.

On the second day four ways lead to the site of the wedding, hmm - could be the Houses, let's say OK as well (though which would be which?). But the confusion starts already at the three gates on the way with their guardians controlling the invitation (who would that be??), the boastful supper in the interior of a giant celestial globe (Great Hall?) and the choice of sleeping place.

On the third day the guests are weighed on huge scales, and those who aren't heavy enough are sent away with a punishment or even killed. The storyteller is the heaviest, outweighing even three knights added to the usual weights (Weight Watchers wanted! :lol: ) and thus allowed by a Virgin to save one of the guests who failed, but is repaid poorly. They are all given pages and proper bedrooms, then there's a lengthy supper with riddles.

On the fourth day the remaining guests take a stroll in the garden with a fountain and are presented to the young king and queen who are to be wed, an altar with six curious objects standing before them (a book bound in black velvet overlaid with gold; a taper in a candlestick; a turning celestial globe; a chiming clock; a crystal fountain with red water; a skull-and-snake thingy apparently mirroring the Dark Mark). Cupid darts around and does funny things, and later two more kingly couples arrive. There's a lengthy "comedy" about a (IMO rather stupid) princess falling into the hands of an evil Moor thrice - the third time even voluntarily -, but saved by an old king, a knight and her betrothed prince who eventually kills the Moor and marries her. In the evening the six kings and queens and their executioner are beheaded. The storyteller is the only one who later sees that their real coffins are laden on ships with their life flames and brought away.

On the fifth day his page - in the absence of the royal persons - shows him an angelical apple tree which keeps renewing itself, and the sleeping naked Venus, who will awake and bear a new king when all the apples have fallen. Cupid catches them red-handed and makes a sign on the storyteller's hand. The supposed coffins are enterred (only the storyteller knows they're not the real ones), then the remaining guests are brought by ship to an island to get the medicaments to restore the beheaded ones. There they prepare the medicaments in an underground laboratory (Snape's dungeon?), while the coffins are brought in without anyone but the storyteller noticing. At night it's only he who sees the life flames fly to that island.

On the sixth day the guests are given ladders, ropes or wings (decided by lot), and they have to work themselves upwards through holes from one floor to another. The rooms are each different, one with a fountain, one with mirrors etc., but each is a laboratory. The first floor is where they start upwards, led on by the Virgin. On the second floor they pray for the restoral of the six kings and queens and apparently work the procedures of alchemy on them, on the basis of the previously prepared tinctures and the executioner's head. On the third floor they create an egg, out of which on the fourth hatches a bird that changes its states (alchemical birds again - raven, swan, peacock). On the fifth it is boiled, loses its feathers and is painted with the powder of a blue stone created by the evaporated boiling water, becoming a naked blue bird with a white head. (??) On the sixth floor the six objects reappear, the bird is beheaded, bled and burned to ashes. Three of the guests are now sent out with laughter, but outside led by the Virgin up to the seventh floor where the young king and queen are recreated with the bird's blood, while the others below rejoice in creating gold.

On the seventh day the guests sail out in ships with the 12 zodiacal signs and meet the young king and queen with their many ships (to the amazement of those who had only made gold the previous day). On a shore near the first gate from the beginning they disembark, the young king shows his special sympathy to the storyteller, but now his peeping on Venus has to be punished. There's a contract with the first gatekeeper that as soon as that happens, he has to be replaced by the one who did the forbidden deed. The storyteller confesses to the king, but the king cannot free him - and as his release from gatekeeping duty will be only when another guest at the wedding of the next (as yet unborn) king does the same, in the evening the storyteller makes a break for it and escapes.

There are several alchemical and other symbols popping up at different places, and there are quite a few appearing in the HP series as well. Also the alchemical process on the sixth day sounds quite interesting, apparently it alludes to those who did alchemy for either worldly or spiritual reasons. Yet I don't see any deeper relationship with the HP books. E.g. I fail to find more connections between the seven Rosenkreutz days and the corresponding HP books than those I have mentioned above, and I honestly can't see Harry peeping at a "naked Venus", or making a run for it when forced to face Voldie in the final battle. :no: Could anyone show me any "roadsigns" to understand what that special relationship to HP is supposed to be?

As said before, I see more of a connection to the HP series in the alchemical process as described by e.g. Flamel, its seven steps do seem to correspond to the books of the HP series. Rosenkreutz? Maybe JKR used it to pick out some of her images, like the winged messenger with the invitation, the supper in a celestial globe/Great Hall or the Dark Mark. But I don't think there's much more to it.

The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz (looooong text, 216k):
http://www.alchemylab.com/chemical_wedding_rosenkruetz.htm
abbreviated version (92k):
http://www.zebratta.com/cwcr.htm

dorcasderr

December 10th, 2003, 4:03 am

Hmmm. Perhaps the PLOT of the Alchemical wedding is not where Granger has drawn his parallels. It must be something in the symbolism...because you're right the plot certainly bears no resemblance to the HP series...so far (and "so far" is all Granger has to go on).

whizbang121

December 10th, 2003, 4:59 am

Ellen

December 10th, 2003, 10:50 pm

I haven’t read this story but I can make some educated guesses about the weddings and everything.

While I don’t follow all the alchemical processes, there are apparently three points where you’re separating things out and three points where you’re joining them together before creating the stone in the seventh step.

The joinings are often symbolized as a wedding. Because joining them also destroys them (although it isn’t alchemy, think of hydrogen and oxygen joining to form water, at which point you have wet stuff good for putting out fires where before you had two things good for starting them) these joinings are also represented as the deaths of the man and woman (usually represented as a king and queen). So, this would be the three couples who are killed. Because the stone is also a symbol of resurrection and eternal life and because it also incorporates all that’s gone before, these couples are also shown as being brought back to life. The executioner, who must also die and be reborn, is probably the alchemist.

At a guess, the princess and the moor probably represent the stages of separation or unions that are supposed to be broken up.

I’m guessing the guests who must be sent away or slain represent would-be alchemists who come to the great work insufficiently prepared and their efforts bring about bad, possibly fatal results.

The people making gold represent are focused on the material element of alchemy, oblivious to the spiritual or life giving element.

The storyteller, I’m guessing, represents the novice alchemist at the beginning of his tale but is a master at the end. Since part of his reward was to save the life of a guest who was unprepared - that is someone starting on the great work who lacks knowledge - he fulfills this in telling the story which hides the essence of the great work in its symbolism.

Serpentine

December 11th, 2003, 5:09 pm

It is kind of baffling. I only read three or paragraphs of the article, so I don't know where Granger was going. But the wedding is very confusing. Three kings and queens plus the executioner may correspond to the 7 chakras, but we would need to know more about each one. The silly one who falls into the hands of the moor, may be the first chakra, but after that ....... why are they all killed? And is the executioner also revived? Who is the storyteller?

According to the text the head of the executioner (who is a Moor as well, by the way) is used for the alchemical doings on the second floor (6th day), but doesn't reappear afterwards. Those recreated are the young king and queen to be wed, i.e. there is only one wedding, not three. (And even about that one I'm not sure if the actual wedding ceremony was ever mentioned in the long account... I don't think so, but I'm not too keen on rereading the entire text.) But the kings, queens, and executioner who are killed are one thing (in the story), the people from the comedy like the evil Moor and the stupid princess are another. There might be symbolic interrelations, but in the story as such they are not identical.

The three kings and three queens who are beheaded are: the young king and his young queen; an old and stately king with a fair maiden; and a black king with a veiled matron. I've wondered if they could symbolize the metals in the alchemical process, with the Moorish executioner being Saturn/Lead because his head together with the medicaments starts the alchemical process. But I'm a bit confused about the rest. As for the others, we have Jupiter/Tin, Mars/Iron, Venus/Copper, Mercury/Quicksilver, Moon/Silver and Sun/Gold. Venus and the Moon have feminine connotations, whereas the others are usually considered as male (with the possible exception of Mercury who somehow seems to have properties of both :rolleyes: ).

I wonder why Granger sees the "black king" mirrored in Kingsley Shacklebolt. With Sirius, Regulus, Snape, Shacklebolt, Lee Jordan, Tom/Voldemort and a bunch of Death Eaters we have far too many "black" personae in the HP story to be so certain. If the six items have anything to do with the six kings and queens (appearing both on the site of their beheadal and on the 7th floor of recreation), the skull with the snake seems to point somewhere else... :scared: Besides Shacklebolt is a rather marginal character so far, introduced only now in OotP. If Granger has already pinned down that one from the Rosenkreutz Seven for HP, who would be the six other ones? So far we've met Shacklebolt only with the Advance Guard (Lupin, Tonks, Moody, Dedalus Diggle, Elphias Doge, Sturgis Podmore, Hestia Jones - total 8 with him) and in the Ministry with Mr. Weasley and some other Aurors, faking the hunt for Sirius.

About the storyteller, it's supposed to be Christian Rosenkreutz. The link to alchemylab from my previous post also provides a link to his biography on the top, as far as it's known. The name seems to be a pseudonym, the real name of the person is not known. But there are quite a few legends around him, e.g. that he's been reborn a couple of times before and gathered lots and lots of knowledge each time. At the time of the story he was an old man, apparently around 80 or so, and during the story his old age is mentioned several times - like when the others let him sleep longer because of his age on the 4th day, when he complains about the weight of his ladder on the 6th day, or about his old man's beard on the 7th day. Also all through the story there are allusions to how important and special he is: during the supper and around the choice of sleeping place on the 2nd day; his special treatment both before and after the weighing, and the Virgin taking a special liking to him during the supper with riddles on the 3rd day; when only he sees things that the others don't see about the coffins and life flames; or when the young king on the 7th day reveals his special sympathy to him and calls him Father.

whizbang121

December 23rd, 2003, 2:56 pm

I haven't been here in a while, but I was reading yet another page about Nicolas Flamel. According to one story, after his "death" he went to India. Then, I clicked on a page with illustrations and posters and found a painting of a caduceus. Suddenly, it clicked why this is so familiar.

The kundalini, or path of the life force in the subtle body is described as a snake that must be awakened through meditation. Here's (http://yoganiketan.net/main.htm) a link to an illustration of how the kundalini moves in the body during meditation. And this (http://www.flamelcollege.org/pictures.HTM) goes to the picture gallery including the paintings of the caduceus. One of them only shows the snakes crossing 5 times rather than six, but this one (http://www.flamelcollege.org/MED04.JPG) shows the lower centers and the "enlightenment" at the crown or pyramid at the top. You can even see the union of male and female energies expressed at the 4th or heart center. This is actually a fascintating illustration from the point of view of yoga.

I have no idea why this is interesting since neither shows the snitch like object. But I'm wondering about the "power" in Harry that the dark lord knows not, and thinking again, it might be prana - life force.

Serpentine

December 24th, 2003, 5:54 pm

The kundalini, or path of the life force in the subtle body is described as a snake that must be awakened through meditation. Here's a link to an illustration of how the kundalini moves in the body during meditation. And this goes to the picture gallery including the paintings of the caduceus. One of them only shows the snakes crossing 5 times rather than six, but this one shows the lower centers and the "enlightenment" at the crown or pyramid at the top. You can even see the union of male and female energies expressed at the 4th or heart center. This is actually a fascintating illustration from the point of view of yoga.

Hmm, very interesting... I'm not sure how much it has still got to do with Alchemy proper (I hope we're not getting off topic... :scared: ), but is there any kind of relationship of these seven chakras with the seven steps of Alchemy, the seven "planetary metals", and/or the seven HP books? If so, is it possible to draw any additional clues about the two books to come?

If I understand it correctly, that kundalini snake has to climb upwards through the chakras or centres of the body - yet another kind of spiritual evolution in 7 steps one has to go through. The Philosopher's Stone (or the Snitch/Caduceus), whether material or spiritual, is something you achieve at the very end of the process, which could correspond to the 7th "crown" chakra or enlightenment. The colour of that crown chakra would be purple. (I'm never sure though whether the chakras have to be counted upwards for growing development as I'm doing now, or downwards for importance. If I'm wrong, please correct me. :rolleyes: ) By the way, is it possible somehow to "nick" enlightenment? Snitchnick James still keeps bothering me.

Was this last one the "Third Eye" chakra, or was it the 6th one right below it? I'm wondering because Harry seems to show more and more signs of being psychic. Strange dreams, invented prophecies coming true (remember the sudden wealth in GoF, or Ron being attacked by a "marshmallow" in OotP?), the gift he seems to have for working with his mind even though he doesn't realize it yet (he would have been able to learn Occlumency if he'd really tried, and he probably did some kind of Legilimency on Parvati [?] during the History of Magic exam)... Does it have anything to do with his and Lily's "startlingly green" eyes?

Oh, by the way... Here in Germany Christmas has already begun (usually on the 24th instead of 25th). Merry Christmas to all those who are reading this. :)

(Makes me think of yet another detail... The special holidays or feasts described regularly and in length in the books are Yule/Christmas dedicated to love, and Samhain/Halloween dedicated to death. Both love and death seem to be crucial themes of the HP series. Easter dedicated to resurrection hasn't popped up so far though. Any deeper importance to these feasts? :huh: )

silver ink pot

December 25th, 2003, 3:38 am

Whizbang: I like the seven chakra model, as the snake rising through the body. Maybe that is why JKR often uses such strange language to describe how Harry is feeling. I remember in GoF, when he is about to ask Cho Chang to the ball, he feels as if his stomach is a squirming ball of snakes. When he is in the Pensive, and seeing his father and friends in the past, he feels squirms of pleasure. I don't know about all of you, but if I were a writer, I would not use the word "squirm with pleasure" unless I had a pretty good reason. I am going to look for more examples of this.

As far as Granger's theory about the Alchemical Wedding - I think that is way too confusing. And I totally disagree about Jung getting it wrong. Back a few pages, we talked about how his psychological portrayal of the Red Lion (Ron) and the White Lion (Hermione) and their "bickering" may have influenced JKR. Also, perhaps Granger hasn't read the childhood stories from Jung's own life in Memories, Dreams, Reflections which are SO similar to Harry's experiences. Which reminds me - Jung was influenced by his study of Alchemy to build a tower. I'm wondering if Harry will ever learn to do something of a more physical, creative, artistic nature in the magical world. We know he can be hard-working in the Muggle world - maybe he will take his grief for Sirius and channel it through a painting, sculpture, or another form.

Merry Christmas to you, too, Serpentine and everyone at Mugglenet!

The more I read, the more I believe that Christmas is a major theme in these books. It is a holiday celebrating love for mankind, love of children, love of family, and the unconditional love of a parent for a child (Mary for Jesus, Joseph for Jesus, God for Jesus and all humans.) All Hallow's is in some ways just a continuation, with the idea that love continues after death, we revere our ancestors, we miss the ones who are gone. That's all I can think of tonight, but the two holidays are two sides to a coin.

Was Easter ever mentioned? I thought it was - I seem to recall something about Easter eggs.

This is off-topic, but I am a little amazed that JKR never mentions any ceremony of a Christian nature at Hogwarts. There doesn't seem to be a chapel of any kind, thought the whole place resembles a cathedral. But the spirit is definitely there! The professors "outdo" themselves decorating the Christmas tree. They have christmas dinner. They sing Christmas carols - the suit of armor is enchanted to sing "O Come All Ye Faithful." JKR could have chosen a secular song like "White Christmas." It isn't just a secular holiday at Hogwarts. What I wonder is whether the Death Eaters have Christmas?

SilverStar

December 25th, 2003, 3:50 am

Wow I never would have thought of this (probably because i didn't know anything about alchemy). Very good theory!

This is a fascinating thread.......

whizbang121

December 25th, 2003, 6:46 am

:Welcome: SilverStar04. Are you the sherriff in these parts? Okay, I'm old. To me a silver star means a sherriff or deputy. I suppose now it has more to do with vampire slayers, right? :lol:
Alchemy is a deep subject and to find it so embedded in Harry Potter brings unexpected dimension to the novels.

The path of kundalini in the model shows a pattern of energy coming in through the medula oblongata at the notch where the spine and the back of the skull connect. This life energy, or prana, travels down through the chakras and then raised back up again. The sixth chakra is the so called third eye, the point between the eyebrows. This is where psychic awareness is said to be centered. The seventh chakra at the crown of the head corresponds to the philosopher's stone, enlightenment. In the seventh book, all will be revealed. Big prediction, right? :lol: But the chakras do correspond to the activities of alchemy. First the kundalini must be awakened, as when Harry first learned he was a wizard.
The root chakra is located at the base of the spine where the snake, the kundalini, is coiled three and one half times when at rest. This is the chakra of manifestation and is associated with grounding, survival and beginnings. These are easy to associate with book one.

The sacral chakra is located in the lower abdomen, centered between the navel and the genitals and is the vortex of change, emotion, pleasure and movement. It deals with opposites, polarities and empathy. This chakra corresponds to the nerve ganglion, is connected to the sciatic nerve, and is frequently referred to as the "seat of life". The Chinese I Ching system is based in an understanding of this chakra as is Tai Chi (yin/yang).
This is the site of sexual energy and the polarity of masculine and feminine energies at work. I think we see the masculine and feminine energies working together very well within the trio. And I hope this is not too adult a thought, but the imagery of a thirteen year old boy being pursued by a gigantic snake through underground tunnels is ... more than we should probably discuss here.The solar chakra is located at the navel and is the vortex of transformation. This chakra deals with self-esteem, energy, will, power and autonomy. It is the place of information or temporal knowledge.
Do we see Harry develop along these lines in PoA? Learning to do the patronus certainly requires a monumental act of will. And I find the reference to temporal knowledge interesting as the time turner is a temporal displacement device. Heart Chakra: The Fourth Chakra
The heart chakra is located in the heart area and is the vortex of balance, love, compassion, healing, and unity. The heart is the termination point of the sacred spiral, the intersection point of the body, the center point, the balance point. According to the Upanishads it is "When all the knots of the heart are unloosened, then even here in this human birth, the mortal becomes immortal." Anodea Judith in "Wheels of Life" indicates that understanding and control of the breath are required to open the heart chakra.
Harry's attitude in the lake when he went back for Fleur's sister. He needed knowledge and control of breath to stay underwater. His willingness to help Cedric and at the end of the maze, to let Cedric win. Then his insistence that they share the victory. Unity. The purpose of the Tournament was to foster unity between the schools. I think this is also the chakra where masculine and feminine energies become one force, something that seems to be accomplished in Harry, but not in Voldemort.
The Fifth Chakra
The throat chakra is located in throat area and is the vortex of sound, vibration and communication. Mantras, telepathy, and creativity are associated with this communications center.
Harry's sensitivity to Voldemort is certainly heightened in book 5. I'm trying to remember elements of sound. Harry finally hears the prophesy. Mrs Black's shrieks and accusations. Sound and mantras, telepathy and creativity. Occlumency and legilimency are related to telepathy. Harry was certainly making a lot of unpleasant noises, and repeating mantras of disenfranchisement. Even Umbridge's voice and her mantra, "Hem-hem." Hmmmm...... What do we hear in book five?
The Sixth Chakra
The third eye is located between the eyebrows and is the vortex of intuition, imagination, visualization, clairvoyance and vision. Many believe that this chakra is connected with the pineal gland and is the "seat of the soul". The third eye's vibration is that of light.
Wonder if this will manifest in book six. Light. Intuition. The seat of the soul. The Seventh Chakra
The crown chakra is located above the head and is the vortex of consciousness and transcendence. When developed we discover the thousand-petaled lotus blooming at the top of the head. In Sanskrit, this chakra is called the Sahasrara, meaning thousandfold or infinite. Yogis call it the "seat of enlightenment". The element of this chakra is thought and its function is knowing. This knowing comes from meditation. I've always been fond of the idea that the final battle will take place in the connection forged by the scar. I suppose this could be defined as within the realms of thought. I also believe that the lighning bolt scar on Harry's forehead is the rune sowelo and is the repository of Voldemort's life energy, torn from his consciousness in the curse that failed in Godric's Hollow.
Interesting to see if the connections of the sixth and seventh chakras will be represented in the last two books.
By the way, is it possible somehow to "nick" enlightenment? Snitchnick James still keeps bothering me.
There's a line in the New Testament that goes something like, "He who climbs up any other way is a thief and a robber unto himself." This is thought to be a reference to trying to use shortcuts to enlightenment. I think the alchemists were warned against it because of the possibly nasty results. Alchemy for the purpose of greed would probably end up poisoning the alchemist, or whatever. Some people think that the use of hallucenigenics or hypnosis, for example, for the purpose of having psychic or spiritual experiences without purifying the ego and engaging in the inner work of personal transformation would qualify as attempting to nick the snitch. Maybe that's why Snape is always on about James' arrogance. Did he use magic to skip a few steps and thus proceed in the steps without purifying the ego? Or did it at least seem that way to Snape? Certainly, Tom Riddle's pursuit of immortality through spells and magic would qualify as attempting to nick the snitch, in terms of alchemy.

barmy codger

December 25th, 2003, 10:48 am

Recently I discovered this discussion from references in Layers in Harry Potter thread, where whizbang posts. This thread on alchemy is obviously dealing with the true nature of the story. I feel like an dunce. I have been pursuing some minor theory of my own that is really beside the point as far as the heart of the story is concerned. I never caught on to the real business, despite a long time interest in the tarot and alchemy which share symbols and meaning. My problem is that I don't think very well with symbols. I recognised the alchemical symbols in the books but was unable to relate them to the structure of the story. This thread is a great find for me, and I thank all for the amazing contributions which I have read through.

The only way I can contribute is to point out that alchemy and its symbols are the western codification of the spiritual journey of shamanism, which is found world wide and predates, and lies at the root of organised religions. The shaman visits the spirit world to bring back information that helps and heals his or her community. The process of becoming a shaman involves initiation, death/ dismemberment, and rebirth as one who can visit the spirit world. The spiritual trip or astral trip is along the axis mundi, world tree, etc. which extends from the primordial, through the world of our daily existence, and up to the heavens. It is in line with the north star. Many familiar symbols represent this, notably the star at the top of the Christmas tree. The star is also alluded to by the ben-ben which was the capstone of the Great Pyramid which was linked to the phoenix. The religion of ancient Egypt was shamanistic. In Harry Potter the Golden Snitch is one of the symbols of the star, which corresponds to the crown on the figure wrapped in serepents (discussed earlier in this thread, and representing the astral trip). An essential part of alchemy's symbols is the sephiroth of the Jewish cabala, which is essentially the world tree. It corresponds to the chakras in yoga. It corresponds to the cross and Christ's death and resurrection. It corresponds to Yggsdrasil of northern myth, which is the basis of rune magic. Jack and the Beanstalk. Jacob's Ladder. You name it. You do not have to believe any of the concepts if you find it religiously offensive, and it isn't important that you do for the sake of discussion. The important thing is to realise that the shaman's trip and all it's related manifestations, from yoga enlightenment to Jungian transformation, was once a belief held and practiced around the world. It still remains and is practiced in its original form, and the core concepts are found everywhere translated into meaningful images by various traditions, such as alchemy.

The shaman makes the journey in a trance state. This is induced by various means: drumming, chanting, music, meditation, but most often by hallucinogenic drugs -peyote,magic mushrooms, etc. which I won't go on about here. The journey is a spiritual one, not physical. An excellent introduction to this is a book called The North Star Road by Kenneth Johnson. It is not in print but I found a copy easily through the internet. His book deals with shamanism in Europe, which was widely practised. It was suppressed by the witch burnings and is not well known now. Few realise that familiar imagery and ideas are remains of European shamanism. There are some interesting insights in the book. For example, a witch making her spiritual journey in her trance, would be seen by us in the normal world as a person in the throes of a drug trip. On her journey she rides a spirit horse. In our reality she straddles a broom. It is symbolised also by such things as the hobby horse. It is worth mentioning that taking a hallucinatory trip by using drugs isn't the same thing as a shaman's spiritual trip. The same tools are used, but the shaman is trained by initiation, and makes the trip with intent, and serves the community.

As much as I am fascinated by the alchemical system, I find its symbols are so varied and great in number, that I can not get a working grasp of them, or a working use of the symbols of the Tarot. Perhaps it is just a matter of increasing familiarity with the language. I find a similar thing happening here in this thread. It is easy to get sidetracked by what things in the story might correspond to what particular symbol in alchemy. Yes, Ms Rowling is using alchemical symbols and structuring her story according to those concepts, rather than referring to primitive shamanism. But the spiritual journey is at the heart of the matter no matter what symbols one uses to represent it. I am sure it is the key to the world wide popularity of Harry Potter.

magicalwand

December 25th, 2003, 11:31 am

The root chakra is located at the base of the spine where the snake, the kundalini, is coiled three and one half times when at rest. This is the chakra of manifestation and is associated with grounding, survival and beginnings.

Well here I ago again. I think the root chakra is definitely associated with the first book as it depicts the groundings for both Voldemort and Harry through the marking and making each equal. Then there is the survival suggesting the time between Harry’s age of 1 and 11 years with having to put up with the Drusleys and Voldemort having to cope without his body. The beginnings could be symbolic for when Harry discovers that he is a wizard and Voldemorts re-occurrence and gain in strength.

The solar chakra is located at the navel and is the vortex of transformation. This chakra deals with self-esteem, energy, will, power and autonomy. It is the place of information or temporal knowledge.

The self-esteem, energy, will, power and autonomy could account for what happened in GoF. The power to over come most obstacles within the Twizard Tournament and the self-resilience required achieving such a goal. The power comes from being able to compete against those that are much older and wiser than Harry. The temporal knowledge could come from the time tuner or the diary in both CoS and PoA as both are distortions in time and space.

Heart Chakra: The Fourth Chakra
The heart chakra is located in the heart area and is the vortex of balance, love, compassion, healing, and unity. The heart is the termination point of the sacred spiral, the intersection point of the body, the center point, the balance point. According to the Upanishads it is "When all the knots of the heart are unloosened, then even here in this human birth, the mortal becomes immortal." Anodea Judith in "Wheels of Life" indicates that understanding and control of the breath are required to open the heart chakra.

This interest me the most as it represents Harry and Voldemort through a balance of power even though opposite, love and compassion to forgive those who have done wrong on Harry’s behalf not through Voldemort though and with such people as Pettigrew. The healing is symbolic of the phoenix and the unity as suggested by the sorting hate comes from the combining of the four houses to aid Harry’s defeat against Voldemort.

The Seventh Chakra
The crown chakra is located above the head and is the vortex of consciousness and transcendence. When developed we discover the thousand-petaled lotus blooming at the top of the head. In Sanskrit, this chakra is called the Sahasrara, meaning thousandfold or infinite. Yogis call it the "seat of enlightenment". The element of this chakra is thought and its function is knowing. This knowing comes from meditation.

The crown chakra does worry me as it suggests the death of Harry through consciousness though and discovery of what he has to do to defeat Voldemort. The idea that transcendence occurs within this theory seems to seal Harry's fate somewhat.

I was going to talk about all seven chakra but time is just not permitting me to do this today. Good theories though and I might just come back to this later on today.

Serpentine

December 25th, 2003, 7:07 pm

Amazing posts, all of you. :tu:
:welcome: SilverStar, barmy codger and magicalwand! Join in to the fun, you won't regret it. :)

Barmy codger (what a truly Dumbledoric name! :) ), I really like your post about shamanism throughout the world. These common ideas do seem to show up in Alchemy, Egyptian Mythology, Nordic mythology and Runes, Celtic mythology and wicca, Roman/Greek history, and in many more places. I believe there are threads dedicated to each of these branches (and they seem to host some of the most intelligent discussion on the Forums), but I feel they overlap each other at least in part, probably because of these shared ideas or roots. JKR seems to have drawn her ideas from all of them.

Whizbang, thanks for the additional info on the chakras! Now that you've posted it, I think you're right - there does seem to be a close connection to Alchemy and the books.

As for Alchemy and planetary metals, I feel the 1st chakra/book could relate to Saturn/Lead (beginning and grounding). The 4th sounds like Venus/Copper (love and compassion), the 5th reminds me of Mercury/Quicksilver (communication). The 6th would then be Moon/Silver (intuition and clairvoyance), and Sun/Gold as the 7th - or the Philosopher's Stone, Snitch or Caduceus (enlightenment and knowledge) - would conclude the process. I'm not quite sure about the two remaining ones, but I'd put down the 2nd as Mars/Iron (polarities, emotions and movement), because of the location of the chakra :rolleyes: and the sword of Gryffindor killing the basilisk in battle. The 3rd, even if it includes more hostility and desire to do battle, would then be Jupiter/Tin (will and power).

I've done some brainstorming about the books in relation to the chakras...

The First Chakra
The root chakra is located at the base of the spine where the snake, the kundalini, is coiled three and one half times when at rest. This is the chakra of manifestation and is associated with grounding, survival and beginnings.

Harry surviving for 10 years at the Dursleys. Voldemort surviving in rats, and eventually in Quirrell's head with Unicorn blood. Harry's roots in his family and its protection (even though he isn't aware of it yet). The snake in the zoo. The Hogwarts letter manifestating everywhere in spite of the Dursleys' flight, and eventually brought personally by Hagrid. The beginning of Harry's wizarding education, of his friendship with Ron and Hermione, of his Quidditch playing, and of the series. Or, preceding this, Dumbledore giving him to the Dursleys (1st chapter of PS/SS).

The Second Chakra
The sacral chakra is located in the lower abdomen, centered between the navel and the genitals and is the vortex of change, emotion, pleasure and movement. It deals with opposites, polarities and empathy. This chakra corresponds to the nerve ganglion, is connected to the sciatic nerve, and is frequently referred to as the "seat of life". The Chinese I Ching system is based in an understanding of this chakra as is Tai Chi (yin/yang).

Low location of the Chamber of Secrets. The Basilisk moving through the pipes (nerve ganglions?). The flying car, the thrashing of the Whomping Willow, the spiders fleeing towards their nest in the Forest and the two boys following them. The basilisk's victims are Petrified, thus motionless.

Male Harry and female Ginny. Polarities in Tom/Voldemort, in Lockhart (good looks but nothing inside) and even in Harry himself. Emotional Valentine poems. Lockhart's pleasure in himself, his good looks and elegance, and his female admirers (and maybe Snape's pleasure in slamming him against the wall? :elaugh: ). House elves seem to have great magical power, yet as slaves they're as good as powerless.

The hero worship for Harry changes into suspicion for him being the Heir of Slytherin, and the Polyjuice Potion turns him and Ron into Slytherins for an hour.

Empathy from Dobby who tries (in his own way) to protect Harry, against the will of his master. Maybe empathy for the killed Myrtle, which is why she begins to like Harry and offers him a place in her toilet, or for Hagrid whose spider Aragog is innocent after all. "Seat of life" = central role of CoS for the series?

The Third Chakra
The solar chakra is located at the navel and is the vortex of transformation. This chakra deals with self-esteem, energy, will, power and autonomy. It is the place of information or temporal knowledge.

Transformation - Transfiguration? Three unregistered Animagi, and the Prisoner of Azkaban is one of them. Minister Fudge pops up for the first time (power), with his executioner. Magical power, will and energy make Harry hold on during the Patronus practice, and finally help him conjure one.

Self-esteem (or lack thereof?)... Lupin the werewolf outcast, or the Dementors? Gryffindor gets the Quidditch Cup at last (boost of self esteem). Proud hippogriffs. The Time Turner, used by Hermione and later suggested by Dumbledore, but its use is regulated by the Ministry.

Harry wants to go to Hogsmeade, and in spite of the teachers forbidding it to him, he uses the Map (information) to wander off to Hogsmeade (autonomy). We also get the first information on the background of Harry's father, Snape and the Marauders. Lack of proof against Peter (information again) has brought Sirius to prison, and keeps him on the run in the end.

The Fourth Chakra
The heart chakra is located in the heart area and is the vortex of balance, love, compassion, healing, and unity. The heart is the termination point of the sacred spiral, the intersection point of the body, the center point, the balance point. According to the Upanishads it is "When all the knots of the heart are unloosened, then even here in this human birth, the mortal becomes immortal." Anodea Judith in "Wheels of Life" indicates that understanding and control of the breath are required to open the heart chakra.

The fourth tome is in the "middle" between the first and seventh. Unity of the schools is the goal of the Tournament (with the lot of the Goblet of Fire), and unity is echoed in the Quidditch World Cup as well. The Hat begins to mention house unity which is missing so far. At first Harry and Ron don't talk to each other (lack of unity), only with Hermione trying to act as a mediator, but are eventually reunited after the First Task. Snape's allegiance to Dumbledore is shown in the foeglass, and in his baring the Dark Mark.

Harry begins to fall in love with Cho, and is jealous of Cedric. Hagrid falls for Mme Maxime. Bulgarian Veelas, all the male students fall for Fleur the half-Veela - and she for Bill -, and youngsters snog in the rosebushes at the Yule Ball. Hermione gets together with Krum, and Ron discovers before the Yule Ball that Hermione's a girl. :lol:

Krum catching the Snitch but Ireland winning the Cup... an odd kind of balance? (Imposter) Moody's out of balance with his odd-paired eyes and his wooden leg, and so appears Crouch Sr. when partially under Imperius.

Krum the brilliant flyer, who on the ground walks less elegantly, is from Durmstrang but obviously not evil. Hermione starts SPEW. Even Snape seems to show a tiny bit of compassion during his chat with Karkaroff in the rosegarden, calling him by his first name (previous friendship?) and suggesting him to flee, "I'll make your excuses". The Unforgiveables shown by Imposter Moody are different ways of using your evil intent, i.e. utter lack of love and compassion: either you torture the victim, dominate it, or kill it.

Harry and Cedric help each other with hints for the first two tasks. He needs compassion and control of breath during the Second Task, and Moaning Myrtle helps him. Unity again in the Third when Harry and Cedric take the Cup together. The absolute denial of love, compassion and anything related, mirrored in Voldemort's resurrection and his DEs meeting in the graveyard. (And maybe Harry's blood in him with Lily's protection, which could later turn out to be Voldemort's downfall.) The arc of light at the connection of Harry's and Voldemort's wands, the phoenix song (healing and compassion), his parents and other killed ones supporting him against Voldemort. Harry bringing Cedric's corpse back, and giving his prize to Fred and George.

The Fifth Chakra
The throat chakra is located in throat area and is the vortex of sound, vibration and communication. Mantras, telepathy, and creativity are associated with this communications center.

Umbridge's "Hem hem" mantra, her Educational Decrees, and her questioning of the professors. Lots of noise and yelling whenever she tries to expel a professor, lots of prophecies are smashed in the DoM, Fred and George create their infamous fireworks, and Luna blasts Pluto in a DE's face. Lack of sound: Hermione silences a DE. Neville is almost choked by Goyle and Snape prevents it; his nosebleed prevents him to pronounce his spells properly.

The Order of the Phoenix (phoenix song is a sound too!) tries to communicate with giants, goblins, and centaurs, and Hermione gets support from Dumbledore in her SPEW efforts. Communication between three of the Houses, and the foundation of the DA. The information about the Longbottoms' insanity finally reaches the Trio. Kreacher communicates valuable info about Harry and Sirius to the Malfoys. Influence of the press: the Ministry communicating through the Daily Prophet, the Quibbler as an alternative source of information, and Rita Skeeter.

Umbridge hinders the communication of Harry and Sirius (and probably others too), watching owl post and Floo network. She makes the students read a book about talking the evil ones out of their murderous mood, and punishes Harry with her evil quill for "telling lies". Dumbledore in turn has tried so far to keep the info about the prophecy from Harry. Some others of the Order don't want to communicate important things to him either, for the sake of his protection. There's also an obvious lack of communication between the Order and a disbelieving Ministry. It's also lack of communication between Harry and Snape, in addition to Kreacher's functioning but deceptive communication, that cost Sirius his life.

Only Snape, even though he resents Harry, gives him fairly much information about the background of their lessons. During Occlumency lessons Harry and Snape "communicate" about their pasts quite freely - and until the Pensieve incident Snape seemed to develop a kind of understanding for Harry, treating him better than he usually does in Potions. After the Pensieve incident he yells and smashes a jar; later in the next Potions lesson he refuses to communicate with Harry, until he sees his potion sample - perfect for once - and smashes it.

The mental scar link, Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be related to telepathy, and in a way, so are thestrals who can be seen only after you've seen death. And Firenze becomes the new Divination teacher.

Draco's being creative, "Weasley is our King..." :lol: So is Luna with her Quidditch hat creations, and I feel there's more about her dreamy air and the Quibbler. The Quibbler seems to be quite creative with its articles anyway (even if there might be more about them)... Stubby, Snorkacks, and an army of Heliopaths? :D

The Sixth Chakra
The third eye is located between the eyebrows and is the vortex of intuition, imagination, visualization, clairvoyance and vision. Many believe that this chakra is connected with the pineal gland and is the "seat of the soul". The third eye's vibration is that of light.

I feel that Luna will grow more important here, she seems to be rather imaginative and intuitive as opposed to rational Hermione. Her mother was working at a creative spell when she died, and she knows about death. There's more about both Luna and the Quibbler than it seems, so some of her and the Quibbler's improbable suggestions could turn out to be true.

Also the role of Divination might be increased. I don't know about Trelawney (a third prophecy?), but Firenze surely hasn't been introduced to Hogwarts just for the sake of it. I feel that Harry is psychic indeed (dreams, invented predictions coming true, mental powers), and that he has passed his Divination OWL - which could lead to some interesting conclusions about Marchbanks and her meetings with subversive goblin groups. :lol: I do fear for Ron's life though, as his invented prophecies tend to come true as well...

By the way, Snape does seem to be the type to sneer at Trelawney's attempts at Divination, but oddly enough he never does. Does he know about her prophecy, and her real power that surfaces so rarely? Also when Umbridge tried to expel her we never saw Snape's reaction, he seems to have disappeared on the way - and some minutes later, Dumbledore turned up with Firenze.

Fred and George's fireworks abound with light of all colours, and many spells create a blast of coloured light doing something (though not all of them). And the name of the 6th book is rumoured to be "HP and the Green Flame Torch". Light again, and in the colour of Harry's eyes.

Harry's and Lily's eyes could get to play an important role, for eyes are said to be "mirrors of the soul". (Could mirrors in general become important too, like the one Harry got from Sirius?) Dementors don't seem to have eyes, and they suck the souls out of those they kiss. Apart from Harry and Lily, those whose eyes are mentioned often and in detail (complete with colour and a twinkle or glitter) are Dumbledore and Snape - both able to do Legilimency and Occlumency. Eye contact remains important for Legilimency/Occlumency, and prophets are also known as "seers". Oh, and it would be a nice place for the flying car with its eyelike headlamps turning up again. :lol:

I also imagine that a lack of vision (blindness to something, or unwillingness to trust your intuition) could turn up as an obstacle - such as Harry's blindness to Snape's beneficial actions and his real allegiance, increased after Sirius's death. He could also be unwilling to believe that he's psychic. The new DADA teacher could be dealing with Dark phenomena which deceive the eye, such as the Fata Morgana or glamours, or it could be another Metamorphmagus.

The Seventh Chakra
The crown chakra is located above the head and is the vortex of consciousness and transcendence. When developed we discover the thousand-petaled lotus blooming at the top of the head. In Sanskrit, this chakra is called the Sahasrara, meaning thousandfold or infinite. Yogis call it the "seat of enlightenment". The element of this chakra is thought and its function is knowing. This knowing comes from meditation.

Reading this I can't help thinking of Dumbledore, who seems to be all-knowing. Harry, and thus we the readers, will finally be told the whole thing about his parents' death, his own special role and everything.

Meditation could have something to do with Occlumency/Legilimency, for in Occlumency you need to clear your mind - just like in meditation. The idea of a mental duel in the scar connection sounds very appealing. Actually I've once - if in joke only - suggested that Snape could teach Harry mind-duelling. He seems to be a good dueller, as a Legilimens and Occlumens he definitely has mental abilities, and after making his peace with Harry (and getting the DADA post?) I could see him doing that.

We've also been told that important info about the ghosts and death (transcendence, infinity) will come in the 5th but mainly in the 7th book. So Luna and Firenze could remain important. Not only the House ghosts, but also Myrtle - complete with her connection to water and the Chamber - could have a reappearance here.

Transcendence and "thousandfold" might also be mirrored in the final battle. Will the Order succeed to convince the goblins, giants, centaurs and house elves to join them?